Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Hermione & OCD

[Demelza]

No: HPFGUIDX 16786

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

>> Demelza wrote:

>> Nope. As I explained above, a hypothesis was put forth that Ron is
>> jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Jealousy is an observed
>> behavior. Hermione observed this behavior somewhere to make that
>> assessment. Because the revelation occurs in Ch 18 GoF, the 
behavior
>> had to have occurred before that chapter and perhaps before GoF.
>> <snip> I looked through the data I had (the books by
>> J.K. Rowling) for signs of this observed behavior. I couldn't find
>> anything in the prior books or in the chapters leading up to Ch 18.
>> GoF that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Again, I 
would
>> be interested to find evidence to supports it.

>There is evidence of jealousy in Chapter 7 of GoF.  It's not
evidence 
of
>Ron's jealousy of Harry's *fame,* but it is evidence of Ron's 
jealousy
>of Harry's money.

Well, we agree that that there is no evidence to support Hermione's 
assertion that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention he
garner. Therefore, Hermione's assessment was incorrect.

>> "No -- don't bother," said Ron, going red.  He was always touchy 
about
>> the fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his 
parents,
>> had much more money than he did."

Let's look at this within the context of the scene. They are at the 
World Cup. Merchants are selling souvenirs. Ron says: "I've been 
saving my pocket money all summer for this". He then buys a hat with 
dancing shamrocks and a Krum action figure. Harry spots a merchant 
hawking omnioculars. Ron looks at them and says he wished he didn't 
spend his money on the other stuff. Harry directs the merchant to
sell him three pairs. THEN, Ron says the material you quoted. 

Now let's look in the prior books. PS/SS on the train to Hogwarts,
Ron hints that they don't have much money: second-hand pet, 
second-hand wand. Compound that with the Draco remark that one can 
spot a Weasley by hair color and by "having more children than they 
can afford". CoS Ron is nervous what Harry's impression is about the 
Burrow (which, based on the description, wouldn't be featured in 
"House Beautiful" any time soon). It's obvious that Ron is ashamed of 
his family's economic status. There's a fine line between pride and 
envy, and it can be very hard to distinguish the two. In my late 
childhood to early teens, I spent my summers in rural West Virginia. 
The poverty there is unforgettable. I knew families like the Weasleys: 
generous, willing to share what little food and comforts they have 
with you, but dirt poor. They were "touchy" about money too and that 
touchiness wasn't envy; it was pride. They weren't envious of people 
who have money; they were ashamed of themselves that they don't and 
that they were looked upon as inferior due to their money situation.  
However, if you let Hermione's 'Ron is jealous of Harry's fame' get 
the better of you by subconsciously ignoring that bit about the fame 
and attention, then I can see how you might believe Ron is jealous of 
Harry's money.
 
>[side note: Rita -- this is JKR referring to the Potter wealth as a
>"small fortune" -- it seems you challenged last weekend that it
might 
be
>a large fortune.  All a matter of perspective, but JKR does describe 
it
>here as a "small" fortune]

Other people have addressed this colloquialism.

>> Please see the above quoted section from GoF Ch 18. Harry is
>>"incredulous" at this jealousy revelation.
>> Later in Ch 18 can be found this curious passage:
>> ***
>> Harry didn't answer. Yes, everything did seem to happen to
him
that
>> was more or less what Hermione had said as they walked about the 
lake,
>>
>> and that was the reason, according to her, that Ron was no longer
>> talking to him.
>> ***
>> "that was the reason, according to [Hermione], that Ron was no 
longer
>>talking to him."
>> Interesting choice of words J.K.Rowling has chosen. It doesn't say
>> "that was the reason Ron was no longer talking to him". It 
qualifies
>> that this is _Hermione's_ reason, with almost implying that Harry
>> that's not Harry's reason too.

>Yes, but he still doesn't think, "She's off her rocker; that's just
>crazy.  I've seen no evidence of that."  No, he just seems to realize
>that he's been blind not to see it before.

On the other hand, he doesn't completely buy it either. There's a 
reason why Harry identifies it as Hermione's. In everyday 
conversation, people use this same sentence structure when they wish 
to be non-committal, especially in the workplace. We must also 
consider Harry's mental state during this time. I address that later.

>I don't think JKR has to give us factual evidence of *everything* in
>order to interject something like this.  It didn't jar with me as a
>reader.  I didn't think to myself, "Ron jealous?  Of Harry's fame?
>Where'd *that* come from?"  No, I was reading along & thinking, 
"Well,
>of course he is."  It fits IMO.

Very true, she left out evidence of Ron's jealousy of Harry's fame
and attention. The first time I read it I assumed the same thing. The 
second time I read GoF, I read it more closely and found the
contrary. We know from Ron's mirror of Erised experience, that his 
heart's desire (as of PS/SS) was to be Quidditch Team Captain and to 
be Head Boy---like _Charlie and Bill_. It's not really fair to Ron for 
us to interpret his desires to be like his _brothers_, as 'jealousy of 
_Harry_" That's the mistake Hermione made and look at the harm it 
caused: it extinguished Harry's initial determination to sort things 
out with Ron.

>The R/H shippers are under the impression that Hermione spends all 
her
>time, when not with Ron & Harry or just Harry, with Ron.  So, if 
true,
>she's in a good position to know if he's jealous of Harry's fame. We 
as
>readers might not be privy to it since we're only given Harry's POV 
for
>the most part.

Because I'm not a shipper of any kind, I would have to disagree. I 
don't think Hermione spends much time with anyone outside of Harry
and Ron. Presumably she shares a dormitory with Parvati and Lavendar. 
It was noted in GoF Ch 20 that she sat beside Ginny at breakfast. 
During the Ron separation, we see Ron talking with or sitting with 
other Gryffindors, such as the twins, Seamus and Dean. But during the 
Hermione estrangement in PoA, Hermione isn't seen in the company of 
other Gryffindors. She is alone, studying in a corner of the Common 
Room, or helping Hagrid with Buckbeak's case. Among her peer group, 
Harry and Ron are her closest friends (if not her only friends). Ron 
was able to blend into other peer cliques. Hermione didn't through 
choice or couldn't through inadequacy of social skills. Either way, I 
feel sorry for her.

>The important thing to me though is that Harry doesn't internally or
>externally deny that Ron could be jealous of his fame and the 
attention
>that he receives.  He may have been initially surprised to hear it
>vocalized, and you're right, he ruminates about it later.  But, he
>doesn't attempt to explain it away.

No he doesn't explain it away. But look the environmental stressors
in Harry's life at that point in time. He is sure that someone 
submitted his name with the hopes he'll get killed. He is estranged 
from his best friend---the very FIRST best-friend he ever had in his 
life and most of the school is treating him like a pariah. (Ch 18 GoF:
"[Harry] thought he could have coped with the rest of the school's 
behavior if he could just have had Ron back as a friend, but he wasn't 
going to try to persuade Ron to talk to him if Ron didn't want to. 
Nevertheless, it was lonely with dislike pouring in from all sides.) 
He is under pressure to defeat a dragon. His god-father is risking
his life in order to be nearby Hogwarts because of Harry. That's quite 
an emotional load, on top of the daily 'normal' emotional load. 
Harry's feelings toward Ron become rather violent in nature as the 
First Task approaches. It can be simply explained as one of the ego 
defense mechanisms. Harry feels anxious and, in a way, not in control 
of his situation (because things seem to happen to him, per Hermione). 
He suppresses these feelings. But his psyche needs a 'release'; Harry 
engages in 'displaced aggression' and vents his anger culminating
with throwing a 'Potter Stinks' badge at Ron and striking Ron's 
forehead (Ch 19). Ron might have his hang-ups, but through his 
troubles with Hermione in PoA and his troubles with Harry, he did not 
resort to physical violence.
 
>> Only AFTER Harry tells his side of the story, does Hermione say she
>> noticed his demeanor and that she believed him.

>She may have been "staring blankly back" as far as Harry's view was
>concerned.  But, you can't possibly argue that he could have known 
what
>was going on inside her head while she was staring back at him.  Just
>because her expression, as far as shocked/stunned Harry is concerned,
>didn't reflect what she she later claimed she was thinking doesn't 
mean
>she *wasn't* thinking it.  We only have her word that she was 
thinking
>it.  But, I believe her (and so does Harry).

Likewise, you can't possibly argue that Hermione is truthfully 
reporting to Harry her impression at the feast. We aren't privy to
her thought process. In order to objectively determine her veracity, 
you must examine all of Hermione's past behaviors, especially those 
concerning Ron. In cluding, Hermione's giggling at Ron's revelation
of arachnophobia. Her insensitivity towards Ron's concerns that his 
pet rat is being targeted by her pet cat. Ron's ability at chess. 
PS/SS specifically states that Hermione wasn't good at it, nearly the 
same way she wasn't good at Divination. Furthermore, does Hermione 
have an 'axe to grind with Ron'? You bet she does! Less than a year 
before, Harry took Ron's side during their estrangement. In light of 
this pattern, she does have a motive.

My point is Hermione's personality isn't all that 'black & white'. J. 
K. Rowling has enabled us to lead ourselves down the proverbial
garden path. But she has cleverly included seemingly minor, fleeting, 
but highly insightful, stepping stones away from that path. Could they 
be pitfalls? Certainly. But the series isn't finished, so it's a 
fallacy to ignore them. 

>> 1. is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, 
or
>> schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is 
lost

>If the point of the activity was lost, Hermione wouldn't achieve top
>marks.  She'd just obsess about the study schedules and the 
organization
>of her notes but not do well on the exams.  We know this isn't true.

Yes, and I did write that when these behaviors interfered with 
Hermione's daily functioning then, she could be diagnosed as OCD. I 
also wrote that just because she doesn't fulfill the diagnostic 
criteria doesn't negate that these behaviors exist and pose a 
potential mental health threat. Though cardiologists define high
blood pressure as three consecutive blood pressure measurements 
greaterthan or equal to 135/85, they don't turn a blind eye to 
measurements of 134/84 because it doesn't fulfill the definition of 
high blood pressure. 

>> 3. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to exclusion of
>> leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious
>> economic necessity)

>We don't know what she does with *all* her leisure time.  You can't 
say
>that you know for sure what she's doing 100% of the time when she is 
not
>with Harry.  We may have the impression from Harry that she spends 
alot
>of time studying, but we have no evidence of this.  She also spends 
some
>time playing chess with Ron (if you're a R/H shipper, you think she
>plays alot of chess games with Ron).  If you're a Ginny fan, you 
believe
>that she spends plenty of leisure time cultivating a friendship with
>Ginny who's burgeoning into a lovely young lady who will be perfect 
for
>Harry.  Point is: we don't know what she does with her "leisure 
time."

Again, if this excessive devotion to work and productivity interferes 
with her daily functioning, as the diagnostic criteria states, then
it is will be more definitive. But as I wrote above, you cannot 
discount the presence of the behavior. There are instances in the 
books that have Hermione playing chess or exploding snap. In GoF, CH 
19 "There was much less laughter and a lot more hanging around in the 
library when Hermione was your best friend." I doubt Madame Pince 
allowsgames of exploding snap in her library. Of course, one could 
argue thatthis is written from Harry's POV, so it is somewhat limited 
and distorted, therefore, does not paint an accurate picture of what 
is 'really' happening. Well, if that's the favored argument, then it 
can be applied to virtually everything written by J. K. Rowling in the
Potter series; that most of it is distorted because it's written from
Harry's POV. I'm glad I don't write fiction. It must be terribly 
unsatisfying to learn your reading audience has so little regard for 
the way _you_ have choosen to represent _your_ characters.
 
>> 4. is over-conscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters 
of
>> morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or
>> religious identification)

>Maybe.  If SPEW is the only example though, I hardly think this
>qualifies her for OCD.

Correct, this alone won't qualify her for OCD. However, this is the 
one diagnostic criteria Hermione meets wholly. One done, three to 
satisfy completely.

>> 8. shows rigidity and stubbornness"

>Alot of people show rigidity & stubbornness.  She doesn't meet 4 of 
your
>definitions IMO, so this alone (or even arguably in conjunction with 
#4)
>above is, IMO, not nearly enough to make the assertion that she has 
OCD.

First of all, these aren't _my_ definitions. These are the diagnostic 
criteria developed and used by the American Psychiatric Association 
for the diagnosis of Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder. These 
criteria can be found in the "Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of 
Mental Disorders: Fourth Edition revised" (aka "DSM-4R") published by 
the American Psychiatric Association. In other words, these are the 
criteria used by psychiatrists and other mental health professionals 
to diagnose OCD and a host of other mental disorders. Again, as I 
wrote in my prior messages and have repeated here, once these
criteria are met. That is, once these behaviors interfere with her 
daily functioning, she will have the 4 or more criteria for OCD as set 
by the American Psychiatric Association. Once again, I will repeat. 
That just because she cannot be diagnosed at this time, that does not
erase the existence of the behaviors nor does it erase any mental 
health concern for them. 'Just because mother isn't in the room, 
doesn't necessarily mean she isn't in the house'. 

Furthermore, you're not incorrect. In psychoanalysis, everyone has a 
diagnosis: nobody is 'normal'. (That's why mental health is a 
particularly lucrative profession.) However, 'normalcy' is partly 
determined by how well you can continue to function in spite of the 
behavior(s). Behaviors are 'normal variants' until the impede the 
daily living activities of the person. 

>> In the meantime, she can be possibly diagnosed as Personality
>> Disorder, NOS which is a category for disorders that do not meet
>> criteria for any specific Personality Disorder.

>LOL!  So .... we could all have a personality disorder under this 
random
>catch-all categroy, yes?!  I guess if you're that determined to argue
>that Hermione has a personality disorder ....

As I wrote above, no one is immune to a psychiatric diagnosis. Again, 
it all goes back to how well you can perform you daily activities in 
spite of your behaviors. Again, mental health is lucrative because it 
has an endless market.

A third party might successfully argue I'm as determined to give 
Hermione a psychiatric diagnosis as you are in denial that she has
the potential for one. And I might add that this fictitious third 
party probably won't ignore my constant use of the words 'potential', 
'possible', 'probably' and won't ignore the times I've written that 
the behaviors must interfere with Hermione's activites of daily 
living(functioning) in order to be diagnosed with OCD.

>> Desiring academic acheivement is no different than desiring 
financial
>> stability or fame. Both can be 'good' because it can serve as
>> motivation. Both can be 'bad' when that desire becomes
overwhelming 
to
>>the point of self-destruction.

>I see no evidence that Hermione is self-destructing, Demelza.  As
>someone else noted, she does achieve her goals (academic success), in
>contrast to Ron, who seemingly makes little or no effort to meet his 
own
>ambitions or goals (or even recognize that he has them).

Likewise I don't see Ron self-destructing either. What has puzzled me 
from reading the various critiques on Ron is that one set of desires 
is regarded as 'positive' (Hermione's desire for academic
achievement) and another set is regarded as 'negative' (Ron's desire 
for financial stability and recognition). Ron is the youngest son in a 
largefamily; he's in the shadows of his older brothers. His parents 
_just_ manage to scrape by on his father's income. If we are to heed 
the theories that Molly's favorite child is Percy and Arthur 
identifies more with the twins, then Ron is also competing for 
parental attention and love, in addition to generalized familial 
recognition. It's only logical that Ron would have these feelings. It 
would be more disturbing if Ron _didn't_ feel this way. Fred and 
George have these same 'ambitions': they get recognition (at times 
negative) due to their prankster antics and they are also concerned 
about the family's financial situation. But I haven't read any 
messages lately that intimate Fred and George have the aptitude for 
betraying Harry because they strive for recognition and money.

In terms of Ron making little effort to meet his goals. He wants 
financial stability. What's he supposed to do? Drop out of Hogwarts 
and find a job? Start a mail-order business or Internet company, 
peddle mind-altering substances to his Hogwarts classmates, lie about 
his age and join the Merchant Navy? He's 14 years old and realizes 
this impediment. GoF Ch "It's rubbish," said Ron, still glaring down 
at his potato. "I don't blame Fred and George for trying to make some 
extra money. Wish I could. Wish I had a niffler." As for familial 
recognition, Ron has played a part in many adventures, including the 
rescue of his sister. So Ron is fulfilling at least one ambition. 

We must remember the characters are adolescents. Adolescence is a
time of self-actualization and personality development. This is a book 
series in development; therefore, nothing is set in stone it is 
completed. Lol, for all we know Ron might become more studious in 
light of the looming O.W.L.S and Hermione might decide she's had 
enough with the studying and decides to party. Will hard-core
opinions of the characters change? I have my reservations about that. 

>> Phobias can be debilitating to those who have them. For someone 
with a
>> phobia , for example of frogs, to even be in the same room with the
>> object is a tremendous accomplishment. Sure Ron was pale and
>> diaphoretic, but he still faced Aragog and overcame his fear, even 
if
>> it was a little. Hermione on the other hand, ran screaming from her
>> boggart.

>Please understand me.  I've said this several times now.  I 
tremendously
>admire that Ron was able to follow the spiders into the forest!!  I 
do.
>Really.  I was just arguing that it's not true to say that he 
"overcame"
>his fear of spiders.  If he overcame that fear, he wouldn't still 
wince
>or push back in his seat during Moody's lesson in GoF.  He does a 
great
>job of facing Aragog boggart in PoA.  He's most definitely 
"confronted"
>his fear head-on, and made very very admirable steps toward facing
up 
to
>it.  I merely objected to the use of the word "overcame."  That's 
all.
>Put your weapons away.  <g>  Believe me, I have an intense phobia of
>palmetto bugs (large flying cockroaches), and I wouldn't follow even 
one
>of them anywhere, let alone a line of them.  I've been known to close
>off a room until my husband comes home ... and then made him show me 
the
>dead body (from a distance!) so he couldn't just say, "Yeah, I killed
>it."

Yes, Ron completed a significant milestone in his dealing with his 
phobia. He should be admired and given the credit due for that.

Demelza