Ron's Jealousy; Hermione in H/R fight (long)

[Amy Z]

No: HPFGUIDX 16986

Demelza wrote:

>Wait a second, you could have no evidence to support that Ron is 
>jealous of Harry's fame and attention he garners, yet you still won't 
>accept that evidence until you have evidence to prove that he _isn't_ 
>jealous of Harry's fame and attention he garners?? In other words, 
>you need to prove that Ron _is not_ jealous in order to believe he is 
>not jealous (if I understand correctly what you have written).

No, that isn't what I meant at all.  (And when I look at your first 
sentence, it looks like something akin to an attempt to prove a 
negative:  you say "no evidence" and then say "that evidence" as if a 
lack of evidence were evidence in itself.)

This is what I meant:

I do have evidence that Ron is jealous:  his best friend says he is.  
That is not hard proof, to be sure, but it's significant nonetheless.

What I was saying was that I do not see any evidence to counter 
Hermione's view.  If I did, I would have to weigh the evidence--"HG 
says A, but I've seen B . . ."  But since I don't see anything, either 
in Ron's past actions or Hermione's, to contradict her view that Ron 
is jealous, I accept that view.  Tentatively, of course, and with the 
knowledge that she could be mistaken or that future events could 
change things radically.

Furthermore, although there isn't any instance of Ron showing jealousy 
prior to that point, the way I perceive Ron's character up to that 
point, it is plausible and fitting that he does get jealous of Harry. 
 It's as if Hermione said "Ron is very close to his grandfather."  We 
see no evidence of it, but in the absence of counterevidence, and in 
the presence of vaguely supportive facts like his having gotten his 
chess set from him (PS/SS 12), I would assume that it is most likely 
true.

Let me give another example of something I see in the books that 
appeared suddenly but not "out the blue," and that I've been meaning 
to write an excursus on for quite a while:  Harry's discomfort with 
people staring at his scar (and, by extension, with his fame).  This 
is almost entirely a creation of the first several chapters of GoF.  
In GoF ch. 2 it says that after a while in the wizarding world, he got 
used to people staring at his scar; we see Amos Diggory, Bagman, and 
Karkaroff staring at it; and we see Harry's discomfort with Colin's 
pointing him out to Dennis.  By the time of the Ron/Harry fight, it's 
a well-established fact that Harry feels his fame to be a burden and 
his scar in particular to be a source of irritation (and I don't mean 
when Voldemort is in a bad mood <g>).

Not so in the three previous books.  In PA Harry leaves the common 
room because he "wasn't in the mood to have a lot of people staring 
avidly at the scar on his forehead."  That is the only mention I can 
think of in books 1-3 that really conveys the discomfort that will 
become a theme in 4.  Yeah, he doesn't like being followed around by 
Colin in 2, but Colin's uniquely annoying; I don't get the sense that 
Harry feels that his fame is a burden generally.  And yet when JKR 
introduces it in 4, I don't think "where the hell did that come from?" 
or "that can't be the case."  I accept it entirely--and I look back 
and see little moments in the earlier books that, while they aren't 
indications that everyone stares at Harry's forehead, point to it 
eventually becoming a theme.  They are just little touches up to that 
point, and before I read GoF I would have said that they didn't add up 
to Harry having a significant problem with being famous--but =in the 
light of what we learn about him in GoF=, they are significant.

It could be that Harry has actually changed--that at 14 his fame is 
difficult for him in a way that it hasn't been since he first went to 
Hogwarts.  Or it could be that JKR has just decided to begin 
highlighting this aspect of his character.  The same is true with Ron; 
perhaps he has struggled with jealousy from day one, or perhaps it has 
become a problem only recently.  But in any case, as with Harry's 
fame/scar troubles, I can look back and say, "Yeah, it fits."

Demelza wrote:

>Ron's consolatory statement smacks of self-depreciation. It's 
>not hard to understand the "bitterness" in his voice when he just 
>intimated that he's a loser.

I agree.  I wouldn't read too much into the "bitterness" comment.  I 
just think it supports, though not strongly, the idea that Ron has 
appeared jealous in the past.  And whatever the reason, sounding 
bitter when talking about a friend's likely success in contrast to 
one's own likely failure is possible evidence of jealousy.

Again, I'm not trying to say that there is =any= evidence for Ron's 
jealousy before we hear about it from Hermione.  I am saying that in 
light of her comment, and in the absence of counterevidence, I 
conclude that he has probably in fact been jealous.

>But my next question would be is, why would Hermione think that 
because someone isn't 
>always  in the limelight, would mean that he is specifically jealous 
>of another's celebrity?

She might be guessing.  Or she might have (certainly has) perceived 
aspects of Ron that we haven't had opportunities to witness--some 
occasion when his jealousy was more obvious than it has been in our 
hearing, so to speak.  I rely on the Trio's insights into one another 
to fill out what I see firsthand of their characters.  In CoS, Fred 
(or is it George?) says that Molly fancies Lockhart.  Do we have to 
think that he reached that conclusion purely on the basis of things we 
have been privy to?  Of course not.  He knows his mother and he has 
seen her responses to Lockhart before, "off the page."  (We, of 
course, don't have to believe him...)  Dumbledore says in PS/SS that 
Snape and James disliked each other.  We have no evidence at that 
point that that is true.  We accept it as probably true because 
Dumbledore says it and we tend to trust him--and because later 
statements by Snape himself confirm it.

>(ex. studying material over and over even though the material is 
mastered)

Yeah, I agree--that would be a bad sign.  I just still don't know why 
people keep assuming this of Hermione.  She is definitely 
perfectionistic when it comes to her schoolwork, but that doesn't mean 
that she doesn't have a clear idea of when she has mastered it and 
when she can stop studying.  (Except for waking up in the night and 
studying notes for an exam she's already taken (PS/SS 16)! <g> But she 
did quit once she remembered she'd taken it already.)  The "learning 
the course books off by heart" example is more persuasive, and is the 
only line I can think of that makes me think she over-studies (not 
that I take it literally--it has to be hyperbole).  I think it's 
significant that this is the first scene with Hermione.  She is 
anxious to impress and her academic anxiety is at an all-time high.  
Fortunately for her and all of us, it declines as the books go on...

>You're guess is as good as mine why Hermione would tell 
>Harry that Ron is jealous. Could she have had the best intentions at 
>heart when she told Harry that? <snip> Again, what is the motive? 
>Although there's not enough information to definitively answer that 
>question, it doesn't mean it should be asked. 

We agree again!  Here's my best guess as to why she told him:  She 
really thinks it is true that Ron is jealous, and she is hoping that 
by understanding Ron's motivation, Harry will have more sympathy and 
bury the hatchet.

If I were trying to get two friends to make up, this would be one of 
my approaches:  try to get each of them to understand what is behind 
the other's unreasonable behavior.  ("Harry, Ron doesn't really think 
you're a liar--the problem is that he's jealous."  "Ron, Harry doesn't 
really think you're stupid--the problem is that he's under a lot of 
stress because he doesn't want to be Champion and is scared about why 
someone would have put his name in.")  A naive approach, often, but a 
well-meaning one.  It doesn't follow that because she is a good judge 
of character, especially Harry's and Ron's, she should be able to 
anticipate that Harry won't be softened by this information.  
Being a good judge of character doesn't mean you bat a 
thousand.  Besides, in the long run I think it did help.  In the short 
run, it =may= have made Harry less inclined to make up (there might be 
other reasons, but I won't get into that right this second), but 
that's because this new perspective on their relationship and the 
import of his fame will take some getting used to.  Once he has time 
to assimilate it, it may give him a better appreciation of Ron all 
around.  

>In terms of Hermione's judgement, I believe I've addressed that in a 
>prior message.

And I've argued with you before, e.g. about Crookshanks. <g> You are 
absolutely right in saying that Hermione's judgment can be 
clouded--re: Lockhart, etc.  She is not a =perfect= judge of 
character, IMO, just, in general, a very good one.

>Unless I'm not understanding this example properly, what 
>you and Amy are saying is if a friend tells you that your next-door 
>neighbor is child-molesterer and doesn't show you any evidence 
>supporting that claim, you would believe your friend on the basis 
>that it was your friend who told you.

Well, no, that doesn't parallel the RHH issue.  First of all, I 
wouldn't believe this on any one person's say-so, because 
child-molesting is a very serious offense, and I would subject it to a 
very high standard of proof.

Second, the issue isn't that it's =my= friend; the issue is that it's 
=the accused molester's= friend.  In other words, two of the things I 
would weigh in trying to decide whether to believe the accusation are 
(1) how likely the person is to know the facts, and (2) how likely 
he/she is to tell the truth.

To scale the problem back to a less heinous offense than molesting 
children:  Hermione says Ron is jealous.  I think, "Hermione knows Ron 
well."  Point one in favor of her insight being believable.  "Hermione 
cares very much for Ron and wishes him well, and is therefore unlikely 
to misrepresent his feelings."  Point two.  "Hermione is generally a 
good judge of character."  Point three.  She could still be wrong--as 
you point out, her judgments aren't always right, and statements like 
this one about Ron always have a question mark anyway--but all in all 
I'm inclined to accept her view.

>To say that Ron is jealous of Harry in, for example, Ch 26 and that's 
what Hermione in Ch 18 
>used to determine he was jealous is an ex post facto argument, which 
>is generally believed to be illogical.

Correct.  =Hermione= can't use something that hasn't happened yet to 
make her determination.  But WE can say "Chapter 22 tells us something 
about Ron that we didn't know before, and knowing human nature, he 
probably exhibited those traits a few months earlier as well."  The 
characters aren't bound by our puny limits; they know lots about each 
other that we don't know, and we rely on them to fill in the blanks 
about each other.  See my example of Dumbledore's reporting on Snape & 
James's relationship, above; it isn't confirmed by Snape until 2 
=books= later, and never, of course, by James.  Does that make it 
untrue or unreliable?  

I don't quite think this is a continuity issue, as Penny suggests; 
it's a matter of JKR letting different aspects of the characters 
emerge at different times.  The characters change and grow, and also, 
we see aspects of them that might have been there for years but that 
the story did not reveal until this point.  (Just as she reveals the 
creatures, spells, devices, etc. of the magical world a bit at a 
time.)

>Wait a minute! I never intimated that Hermione was a pathological 
>liar. Please refrain from 'putting words' into my messages. 
>Questioning motive and veracity is not equivalent to saying that she 
>is a pathologic liar. 

But you =are= saying that her issues with Ron are substantial enough 
to motivate her to lie outright to Harry about her perceptions.

E.g., you wrote in message #16786: "you can't possibly argue that 
Hermione is truthfully 
                 reporting to Harry her impression at the feast. We 
aren't privy to
                 her thought process. In order to objectively 
determine her veracity, 
                 you must examine all of Hermione's past behaviors, 
especially those 
                 concerning Ron."

and in message #16441, you wrote:  "Only AFTER Harry 
                 tells his side of the story, does Hermione say she 
noticed his 
                 demeanor and that she believed him."

You also pointed out in this context that Harry wanted to talk with 
Ron before this conversation but no longer does afterwards, that 
Hermione has a motive for lying when she said she recognized that 
Harry was shocked by the Goblet, and that you find the whole 
interchange "moderately disturbing."  I thought you were saying that 
you are disturbed because it seems Hermione is deliberately prolonging 
the conflict between Ron and Harry, but I might be reading you wrong. 
 Is this what you meant?  Or were you only suggesting that the bit 
about her knowing Harry was upset was a lie?  That seems improbable to 
me, but at least I can understand a possible motive for that.

As far as her truthfulness about Ron's jealousy goes:  Hermione could 
be mistaken about it, but I cannot for the life of me see how she 
could be being malicious with her assertion that he's jealous.  It 
appears to me to be a good-faith attempt to get Harry to see things 
from Ron's point of view.  It doesn't work, at least in the short run, 
but it isn't a lie, nor is her intention bad as far as I can 
tell.  If her intention =was= to fan the flames, why would she say 
this anyway?  There are so many more effective things she could say: 
"Yes, I saw Ron at breakfast, and he's really pissed off at you," or 
"What do you expect from Ron?  He's an immature prat.  Forget about 
him, Harry," or "Ron was telling everyone at the table that you were 
bragging about sneaking into the Tournament..."  The potential for 
sowing discord between two friends who are already fighting is vast.  
Hermione chooses to try to bring them closer together.

>Doing schoolwork during summer vacation, when none has been assigned 
is a behavior. 

Hermione is hyperconscientious about her schoolwork, but the evidence 
that she does summer schoolwork that hasn't been assigned is fuzzy at 
best.  JKR is quite unclear on whether they have summer assignments or 
not.  The above statement comes from CoS (ch ?  It's at the 
Burrow...my CoS is on the floor on the far side of my sleeping spouse, 
so I can't get at it), but CoS also states that Harry is afraid of 
getting behind because his schoolbooks are locked up (ch 1).  In PoA 
they have homework to do over the summer (ch 1).  In GoF Molly doesn't 
believe Fred and George have homework because it's the summer.  The 
jury is out on whether they consistently have summer assignments or 
not.

Right on on the "good grades don't correlate with financial success" . 
. . I have always been a good student, have 2 master's degrees in 
my field, and am living on a shoestring . . . there ain't no justice! 
 (What I want to know is, how come bad actors and mediocre ball 
players are rich and brilliant teachers and fantastic nurses are poor? 
 But you =really= don't want to hear my Why the Assertion 
that Capitalism is Fair is a Crock rant.)

And your story about your grades . . . I really sympathize.  You're 
even more of a Hermione than I am, Demelza!  It took me 'til age 30 to 
realize that the term "perfectionist" applied to me.  There is a 
support group for recovering Hermiones--please join us!  We follow the 
12 steps, the 12th of which is oven cleaner.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------
 Ron peered into Harry's teacup, his forehead
 wrinkled with effort.  "There's a blob a bit
 like a bowler hat," he said.  "Maybe you're 
 going to work for the Ministry of Magic. . . ."
               -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------