Lots of Snape Stuff

[Lyda Clunas]

No: HPFGUIDX 17373

Magda wrote:

>>Snape's concept of authority is also very child-like: do this or 
you'll be punished; don't do that or you'll be expelled. The rolled-
up newspaper theory of rewards and punishments is what makes sense to 
him. He doesn't believe that you can maintain order by force of 
example (He thinks Dumbledore lets Harry get away with everything) or 
that you can appeal to a child's conscience (although he and Lupin 
say pretty much the same thing in PoA after Harry gets caught being 
off the grounds, he ensures that his warning has no effect by 
taunting Harry and getting his back up).<<

I wrote a big long spiel in the "HP Morally Questionable" thread 
about where Snape and other characters fall on the Kohlberg Moral 
Ladder. Allow me to bring that back here for a moment: 

~~For Snape, Filch, and Hermione, I think they are operating at the 
Conventional level. Snape and Hermione, I think, float between stage 
4 (conventional)and stage 5 (postconventional), while Filch I would 
place in simply stage 4. Anyhoo, at stage 4, actions are met and 
guided by the law: doing your duty, respecting and deferring to 
authority, upholding social order and the rules. Snape definitely 
fits here; he's obsessed with authority and maintaining order. Filch 
fits as well, as does Hermione. But Snape and Hermione also show 
characteristics for stage 5 Postconventionalism: they recognize the 
rights of others (Snape returning to Our Side so as to preserve and 
help others, rejecting the rules and order of the DEs so that general 
principles of society may be maintained), and they see the general 
rules accepted by society as binding but subject to change (Hermione 
and SPEW, she wants to change a view in society, and she decides to 
attempt to go about it). They have high morals in their principles, 
but they also have the rules which they feel must be enforced and 
obeyed. ~~

You argue that Snape actually fits into the Preconventional Stage (do 
this and get rewarded, don't do this or get punished). I sincerely 
doubt that; he has too much sense of principle and abstract morals, 
IMO. I think that any childlike behavior Snape has is simply the 
result of what his life-- past and present-- has cumulated into. One 
could even argue that his behavior is a kind of defense mechanism, 
that he's using long-term regression because he's had so much trauma 
in his life (that's one for you Freudians out there). He's a very 
bitter person, but I think he's also very emotional, and he tries to 
keep all those emotions under the surface. Not letting them interfere 
with his duties, his life. He has a great amount of self-control, but 
sometimes he snaps (Shrieking Shack). But, he has a great sense of 
the "rules", that everyone should follow the "rules". Order is a big 
part of his life, and he does *not* like it when someone defies that 
order (like Harry does).

Magda continues:

>>Can anyone even imagine Snape in a crowd of people outside of 
Hogwarts? Does he ever go anywhere there are large numbers of adults 
around? He didn't go to the Quidditch World Cup. Does he go down to 
Hogsmeade occasionally to kick back a Flaming Dragon's Blood (hold 
the cherry) at the Three Broomsticks?<<

I personally think that Snape doesn't venture out much because, 
whether you believe this or not, Snape is a "wanted man". I think 
that he's at Hogwarts in part so Dumbledore can keep an eye out for 
him, as protection. This has no doubt only increased his anti-social 
behavior. But, I do believe that Dumbledore keeps Snape around 
because he's probably one of the #1 persons on the DE hit list. There 
are other theories, as well, that I think go along with this, but 
this is the reason you don't see him hanging out in Hogsmeade.

Magda continues:

>>Does he flirt with Rosmerta? (As if!) Would she recognize it if he 
did? Personally I don't think that Snape has discovered girls yet; 
his blasting the rosebushes activities during the Yule dance is so 
wonderfully in character as is his touching belief that taking points 
away will deter them from finding other bushes.<<

Koinonia replied:

>>There were some comments about the rosebush scene with Snape and 
Karkaroff. Let's face it. Snape is a man and is capable of having 
loved just like anyone else. I believe Snape was in love at one time 
and the kids in the rosebushes just brings back painful memories of 
the one he has lost. If he can't be with the one he loved then they 
are not going to get an opportunity to get close to the one they 
like. So very like Snape!<<

I agree wholeheartedly with Koinonia; I think Snape was once in love, 
and that he lost his loved one due to his involvement with the DEs. 
The rosebush business *does* bring back horrible memories and guilt 
for him. I also think that Severus is... er... rather *frustrated* in 
some areas. ;) There are few (if any) teachers that are near his age 
at Hogwarts, and he doesn't venture into Hogmeade. Fourteen years of 
celibacy will get to a man, eventually, and seeing kids fooling 
around in rosebushes doesn't help much. :)

Lea wrote:

>>He´s a model of self-control even in extraordinary circumstances - 
that's as long as he's the one in control of the situation. 

"Give me a reason", he whispered. "Give me a reason to do it, and I 
swear I will." 

That's Snape at his best, Snape at the height of his power, and I 
find nothing childish or uncontrolled in that (except Severus 
couldn't resist putting as much pathos into that phrase as he could). 
He gets a bit loud when he feels things are getting out of hand, 
though, like in the shrieking shack in PoA or with Moody in "the egg 
and the eye" in GoF. But that's hardly surprising.<<

Yes. Severus has these *very* deep, passionate emotions, but he also 
has this extreme self-control with which he regulates and attempts to 
detach his emotions. Except when he snaps; then, it's all over, and 
the self control gets tossed aside. PoA describes him as "suddenly 
quite deranged". I think that about says it all; he suddenly, more or 
less, loses his right mind. :) 

Lea continues:

>>I on the contrary am convinced that he is at heart a *good* person, 
only it's buried so deep somewhere under the events and experiences 
in his past that he really will have trouble digging it up again. I'd 
even go as far as saying the only person we can be *sure* about not 
to go over to the dark side (apart from Harry, maybe) is Snape.<<

Absolutely. He *is* a good person, he has high principles, but he's 
also become so dependent on his sarcasm, his cruelty, his cold 
detachment from others. Bitterness and guilt has consumed him, he's 
become a shadow of what he used to be. The goodness he once had (and 
is still capable of regaining) is hidden underneath all the 
bitterness and hatred and self-loathing that has ingrained itself 
further into his personality.

Magda wrote:

>>I think we will find out that there isn't anything between Lucius 
and Snape but that Harry will continue to have his doubts about Snape 
based on this experience and his own mistrust of both men.<<

I have little idea what the relationship between Snape and Lucius 
was, but I am certain that they at least *knew* each other when Snape 
was a DE. I personally think that there is more to Snape and Lucius, 
and that Snape treats Lil Malfoy the way he does because of this.

Dinah wrote:

>>But he's also a Slytherin at heart. Ambition - someone brought up 
the lost Order of Merlin, and I think that he wasn't too upset about 
it, he just was upset to see that a murderer got away without 
punishment - is often linked to public recognition. That's the kind 
of pride and ambition the Malfoy's have, that even Ron has. Snape's 
ambition is to do things the right way and be successful at it. He 
probably is bitter about not getting the praise he deserves, but it 
is not his main concern.<< 

I think Snape has a combination of both of these ambitions. He longs 
for recognition (which he doesn't get) and that just adds to his 
irateness in PoA when he loses the O of M. But, as you mention, he 
also has this craving to be successful at what he does, and in doing 
something correctly or right. He's a perfectionist, really.

Catlady wrote:

>>Snape was unconscious during most of the great revelations in the 
Shrieking Shack: he never saw Scabbers turn into Pettigrew and 
Pettigrew escaped before Snape came to. Snape, although loathsome, 
was probably sincere when he told Fudge: "Black had bewitched them, I 
saw it immediately. A Confundus Charm, to judge by their behavior. 
They seemed to think there was a possibility he was innocent. They 
weren't responsible for their actions. On the other hand, their 
interference might have permitted Black to escape.... They obviously 
thought they were going to catch Black single-handed". At the end of 
PoA, Snape still believes that Sirius was the traitor and mass 
murderer and that Lupin was his ally. When does Snape find out 
different? <<

Yes; Snape honestly thinks that he was "saving" Harry, Hermione and 
Ron from Black and Lupin. He didn't want to hear what Black had to 
say, because he firmly believed that *he* was right, that Black was a 
ruthless murderer, that he'd Confounded the trio, etc. Snape finds 
out different when he realizes that Dumbledore trusts Sirius at the 
end of GoF. Dumbledore tells him the story, naturally, but he, I 
think, refuses to believe it until he actually feels that Mark burn, 
and Harry returns with his story. That is why he is able to shake 
hands with Sirius, because he grudgingly believes the truth now. Does 
he still hate Sirius though? Oh yes. He just believes in his 
innocence of the Potters' murders now, IMO.

Catlady continues:

>>I am confused. Is there any reason to think that Snape was at the 
DE meeting? Wouldn't his absence from the Triwizard audience have 
been noticed? Even if Snape wasn't "the one who has left us forever" 
or the coward or the loyal servant at Hogwarts, there were other 
spaces of absent Death Eaters in the circle.<<

Yeah, Rebecca points out that he in fact *could* have been at the DE 
meeting, but I doubt it. He wouldn't have just left Harry hanging 
there like that; he would have tried to do something, IMO. 

Catlady continues:

>>I agree, except I think that Lucius left Hogwarts at least slightly 
before Severus's time there, so the 'friendship' began when Severus 
left school and joined the adult world. <<

Friendship-- I'm unsure that it was a friendship, per se. More of a 
friendly working relationship. I doubt that Severus met Lucius until 
he was initiated into the DEs. But, once there, he and Lucius 
probably worked together on raids or what-not. Perhaps Lucius was 
even a kind of "mentor" for him, teaching him the ways of the DEs. 
(I've seen this done in fanfic a lot.) But I think they *definitely* 
knew each other. And I think they knew each other well enough for 
Snape to take precautions by being smarmy to Lil Malfoy. 

Koinonia wrote:

>>After PoS, I would assume that Voldemort knows Snape has left him 
forever. Voldemort had Quirrell and then BC Jr on his side, working 
at Hogwarts. As far as we know Voldemort never attempted to make 
contact with Snape after finding out Snape was at Hogwarts. Voldemort 
dearly wants to have someone on the inside. If he thought Snape was 
just a coward he would have attempted to contact him. Plus I believe 
there are things that Voldemort knows about Snape that we don't know 
yet which would leave V. to believe Snape has left him forever. 
Though I don't think Snape went back to Voldemort that night, I do 
believe it is possible.<<

Good points. I think Voldemort definitely suspects Snape as having 
left him forever. The question is whether Snape, *if* he returned as 
a spy, could convince V. that he is "back" to the Dark Ways. Sirius 
says that Snape is "certainly clever and cunning", enough to keep 
himself out of trouble. I think he would also be clever and cunning 
enough to fool Voldemort again, at least for a little while.

Rebecca wrote:

>>Snape is most likely the one V. believes has left him forever. 
However, note that V. says "I believe has left me," not simply "who 
has left me". That "I believe" is quite significant, because it shows 
that V. is not actually *certain* that Snape has left him forever, 
only that it appears to him that this is most likely the case. As 
such, there is still room for Snape, if he is quick-thinking enough 
to come up with a really super alibi, to come back. And given Snape's 
airtight reputation in front of everyone at Hogwarts as a nasty, 
spiteful, Gryffindor-hating, Slytherin-favouring, Harry Potter-
persecuting type, I really don't think it would be impossible for him 
to work his way back into the DE's.<<

Yup. Those are my thoughts exactly. His demeanor and his intelligence 
are certainly well enough to help him make his way back to the fold 
of the Death Eaters. 

Stacy wrote:

>>Is Snape going to be Potions professor next year? If he's with 
Voldemort, he can't work for Dumbledore -- or would Voldemort try and 
plant Snape at Hogwarts like he planted "Moody," to keep an eye on 
Harry and track his movements, when in fact Snape would actually be 
protecting Harry along with Dumbledore. I don't know. I think 
Dumbledore is assuming a lot if he has in fact asked Snape to return 
to the Death Eaters. Voldemort is many things, but I don't think a 
foot is one of them.<<

I think that *if* he managed to fool Voldemort and return as spy, 
that Voldemort would definitely have him as a connection at Hogwarts. 
But, as you mentioned, Snape would actually be the double-agent, 
protecting Harry in reality. I don't think that Dumbledore really 
expects Snape to succeed, if he has him return to Voldie. Dumbledore 
gives Snape the *option* of taking on the task that he asks him to do 
(whatever it actually is) and Snape says he is "prepared". I don't 
think Dumbledore is forcing anything on him, and I don't think he 
expects much out of it, but it is something that he has to at least 
try. If Snape is willing.

All for now. I'm sure I'll find something else to reply to... :)

Lyda