Snape and Lucius Malfoy (mostly Snape)

[Hillman, Lee]

No: HPFGUIDX 17575

Hi-ho, it's Gwen, and I know, it's Harry week, but I'm still catching up on
old email:

Catherine wrote: 
> I think that Karkaroff is the one who has left forever, because to gain
his 
> freedom from Azkaban he denounced Rook, a DE, and tried to betray 
> others, who had already died or been captured.  Therefore he betrayed 
> Voldemort and his followers.  <Snip>.
> 
> Therefore it stands to reason that Snape is the one Voldemort thinks 
> is too cowardly to return.  I still believe that Snape did return to 
> Voldemort that night, at the request of Dumbledore, to begin spying 
> again.  Everything points towards this.  We know that Snape went 
> somewhere that night.  Dumbledore wishes him luck, is apprehensive 
> about what is going to happen, asks Snape if he is ready and 
> prepared.  If he was asking Snape to do something in the future, he 
> wouldn't speak quite in those terms.  I think Dumbledore and Snape 
> are also counting on the fact that Voldemort would accept Snape back 
> without doing him too much damage, because he would know that Snape 
> would be expected to be at Hogwarts, and now that Barty Crouch can no 
> longer be used, it would be too useful to have Snape there, 
> supposedly spying for him, to pass up on.  Therefore it seems likely 
> that Snape has returned, is spying for Dumbledore, yet Voldemort 
> expects Snape to be spying for him.
> 

I originally posted a while ago (during the discussion on the Death Eaters
chapter) that I believed that Karkaroff was the coward and Snape was the one
who'd left forever, and then a post similar to Catherine's (which stated the
opposite) convinced me it could be either way. However, I think whether one
believes Karkaroff=Coward or Snape=Coward, Snape must have done something
like going to them that night. He accomplished whatever task Dumbledore
asked of him, or he wouldn't be present at the leaving feast, so it was
something he could do and return in a short amount of time. Also, for all
Catherine's reasons above, he must return or he WILL be assumed to be a
traitor, and then his life is definitely in danger. Regardless of how risky
it was, he had to attempt it. We can also infer that it worked, because
again, he's back by the leaving feast at the end of term.


> > >Which raises the problem that Snape *was* at the DE meeting - 
> > which
> > > means he would have known that Lucius was there *and* saw 
> everything 
> > that
> > > happened to Harry.
> > 
> > Ah, if he was, I´ll immediately renounce everything I´ve ever said 
> in 
> > defence of him. The very idea he was there gives me the shivers!!! 
> > I´ve never even considered the possibility. Has anyone else?
> > 
> > > I mean, if Voldemort knows that Snape betrayed him, how can 
> Malfoy 
> > not know?
> 
> This, I don't understand.  I thought that Voldemort had gone through 
> everyone who was there.  My theory only works if Snape turns up later 
> and is one of the three missing who Voldemort refered to.  

Not exactly true, Catherine. Unfortunately, my GoF is on loan, but the
description of the scene in the graveyard doesn't specify either how many
DE's there are or how many are missing. It describes Voldemort moving
amongst them, talking to some, but not all of them, and we are given
detailed reports of what he says to Avery, Nott, and Malfoy. He does say
that the gap of six DE's is the largest gap, but we don't know how many
other gaps there are of one or two DE's who didn't return for whatever
reason. So while I believe that Snape is either the coward or the one who
'left forever,' we can't necessarily rule out other absences. 

If Snape _had_ been present, though, I find it unlikely Voldemort wouldn't
have said something. In which case, Harry would certainly have noticed.

> However, as regards Lucius Malfoy, I have always supposed that Snape was
not 
> told who all the other DEs were - afterall, he didn't know that 
> Wormtail was one - he seems to be very much Voldemort's secret 
> weapon.  Also, if he did know, doesn't it follow that Dumbledore 
> would also have been told?
> 
We don't know who knew about Peter beforehand, but I think it's safe to say
none of the good guys did--except the Marauders, who believed him above
suspicion. Doesn't Karkaroff say something at the trial about how only
certain members knew who their contacts were? It all depends on how elite
Lucius was, whether he knew the majority of the DE's or not--but I'm betting
only Voldemort himself knew every single name.

> I don't think that Voldemort does know that Snape betrayed him (see 
> above my first comments on Karkaroff's betrayal.  We know that 
> Dumbledore vouched for Snape - do we know how widely known this was? 

No, we don't. We know that from Harry's perspective through the pensieve,
there were lots of people there, but whether they were members of the
general public, like the witch at Ludo Bagman's trial who complemented his
Quidditch game, we don't know for certain. I find it unlikely that there
aren't DE's who found out about Snape's supposed spying, however. But Snape
could easily claim that he turned spy as a CYA maneuver, and that the
information he passed on to Dumbledore really didn't result in any tactical
advantage. In other words, he can claim to have been a "spy," (wink, wink),
the same way that Lucius claimed to be under the Imperius.

> Or was this supposedly part of Voldemort's plan?  To have Snape at 
> Dumbledore's side - not knowing that Snape is working for him 
> (Dumbledore?).  The possibilities are endless, but from canon, to me 
> it just makes more sense that Snape is the coward and Karkaroff is 
> the one who has left forever - otherwise what else could Snape have 
> done that night?
> 
More importantly (again), if he didn't go back that night, what possible
hope could he have later of escaping Voldemort's revenge?

Gwendolyn Grace