From r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 00:13:47 2001 From: r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com (r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 00:13:47 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter in pop culture In-Reply-To: <20010728191453.33884.qmail@web13108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9k7hjr+e6bc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23366 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sarah Rose wrote: > Bloody hell. I didn't realize that and I read that > comic like everyday. HP was also in the 6-22-01 > comic. > http://comics.com/comics/getfuzzy/archive/getfuzzy-20010622.html > > that one was by far my favourite. This is funny -- here's another appearence of HP in pop culture: on a recent episode of "King of the Hill" (animated TV show in the US) Hank gets hauled into "environmental court" at his son's middle school, where the students get class credit for ticketing adults for environmental infractions. A kid swears him in, then Hank looks down at the book his hand was on and says, "Hey, this isn't the Bible, it's a Harry Potter book!" "We're not allowed to bring the Bible to school", the kid replies. >From the looks of the animated book cover it was SS/PS. Potterheads rule! Red Queen From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 1 00:24:33 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 00:24:33 -0000 Subject: Mr. Bagman (filk) Message-ID: <9k7i81+e63u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23367 Mr. Bagman (from GoF, Chap. 24 ) (To the tune of Mr. Sandman) Dedicated to Penny Linsenmayer The Scene: The Three Broomsticks tavern in Hogsmeade. While Ludo Bagman huddles in the corner with a troup of Goblins, he is observed by two interested groups of Hogwarts students CHORUS OF GOBLINS Bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, etc. FRED AND GEORGE Mr. Bagman, we won our bet We asked him kindly to make good his debt He paid us off once with Leprechaun gold Since then he has kept the two of us on hold Bagman, we are both broke Cash we're needing for our shop of jokes Please do not make us get mad, Mr. Bagman, or we will tell Dad! CHORUS OF GOBLINS Bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, etc. HARRY (to Ron and Hermione) Mr. Bagman, wouldn't you bet He's the worst sleaze-ball that I've ever met He's more awful even than Rita Skeeter At least she never joined up with Death Eaters! Bagman, up to his tricks The Triwizards Tourney in my favor he'd fix Through him Winky sees right through Mr. Bagman, you haven't a clue! FRED, GEORGE & HARRY Bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, bung, etc. CHORUS OF GOBLINS Mr. Bagman, you've lost some bets And be it far from us to broadcast vain threats But don't think to dodge us, please don't even try it Binns can tell you how we love running riot Mr. Bagman, if Harry wins That IOU of yours goes in the dustbin But should you lose this magic scheme Mr. Bagman, bring us, please, please, please Mr. Bagman, your heart and spleen. (Exit Bagman, nervously) - CMC From morgan_793 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 00:48:51 2001 From: morgan_793 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?=20?=) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 01:48:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sport in year 7 (was Time line Question) In-Reply-To: <05D00635.7BC9AC7B.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20010801004851.48051.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23368 --- dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote: > Catherine wrote: > >This [Charlie concentrating on studies in year 7] makes sense to me. > Hogwarts may be an exception - Minerva McGonagall would surely try to > make it so - but so far I don't see it. Flint was playing even when > doing retakes. There is a difference: Charlie played for Gryffindor, where McGonagall would presumably have more influence. Flint played for Slytherin. It could depend on which house was being discussed, rather than the school as a whole. Also, if Gryffindor 7th years were unlikely to play on the house quidditch team, it might help to explain in part how Gryffindor could go so many years without winning the quidditch cup. ===== Respectfully, Morgan "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes." ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From morgan_793 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 00:50:07 2001 From: morgan_793 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?=20?=) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 01:50:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantantem In-Reply-To: <9k6039+fjt8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010801005007.69662.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23369 --- Dai Evans wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cheryl Dimof" wrote: > Any thoughts on why Harry's wand forced Voldemort's to do > this, and > > not vice-versa? Does this suggest that Harry's powers are stronger > than > > Voldemort's at this point? > It does seem to. > This could indicate that Harry has more will power than this > homicidal maniac or better concentration, both of which are possible > as V is clearly insane. Or it could mean that Harry is stronger, > magically than V in some ways. Yet another theory: it could also have something to do with the nature of their wands. Recalling that Harry has been helped in the past by Fawkes, who donated the tail feathers for both wands, it could be that Harry is somehow better attuned to the (for lack of a better word) nature/essence of his wand at its core than Voldemort. If this attunement to his wand was an influencing factor, Harry would not necessarily have to be stronger as a wizard than Voldemort. There is probably also merit to the idea that Voldemort, having been so recently reborn, was probably not at his full strength when the event occurred. If the two ideas are combined, it seems quite plausible that Harry's wand 'overpowered' Voldemort's without implying him to be some sort of "super-Harry." ===== Respectfully, Morgan "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes." ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 1 01:04:42 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:04:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantantem References: <9k6q4e+bkeb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6755A9.B81A1AA6@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23370 caliburncy at yahoo.com wrote: > I don't think the Super Harry theory is necessary at all to explain > what happened (thank goodness, since I don't like it much either, > David, for similar reasons). Harry is special in his connection to > Voldemort, but outside of that I don't think he is any more powerful > than anyone else. Harry's "edge" may simply have been that he was the right personality type (good) to understand and draw strength from the phoenix song, not to mention had an affinity with that particular phoenix, and Voldemort didn't. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 1 01:13:40 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:13:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forbidden Forest Visits References: <20010731221721.68507.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B6757C4.27C365EC@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23371 Kelly Hurt wrote: > Harry lands in a tree that is in the Forest, thus he was in the > forest. If a wizard lands in a forest, and there is no footfall to hear, was he really there? --this wasn't Amanda, not at all, nope [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 1 01:31:48 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:31:48 -0500 Subject: Write a Filk, Tonight (was FAQ Filk (where's my credit??)) References: <9k7bjt+koei@eGroups.com> <3B673DEA.B5624E0A@swbell.net> Message-ID: <3B675C03.7E50C601@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23372 Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > FAQ FILK -- I *loved* it! But, I must confess to being a bit dejected > that I was not mentioned or credited in any way (me ... the author of > 9 of the FAQs ... *all* of which are done too). :--( > > Penny (pouting) *ahem* :::timidly steps up to mike, adjusts height, cues band::: (to the tune of Comedy, Tonight from "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum--and I do *not* sound like Zero Mostel, you in the front, shut up) Something for Penny, She dint get any, Someone, write something fast Or else she might get mad! Waking, odd hours, Diapers with scours, She's clearly on the edge And we must keep her glad! She's a new mom! She needs some balm! Bowing and scraping, to keep her calm! Someone with meter (A blue four-seater?) Scansion, and wit and depth and rhyme--- Somebody write Penny.... FAQ-er filk, TONITE! --Amanda exits ducking tomatoes, wondering why no one throws chocolate... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 1 01:59:21 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 01:59:21 -0000 Subject: FAQ Filk (where's my credit??) In-Reply-To: <3B673DEA.B5624E0A@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9k7npp+lo06@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23373 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:> FAQ FILK -- I *loved* it! But, I must confess to being a bit dejected > that I was not mentioned or credited in any way (me ... the author of 9 > of the FAQs ... *all* of which are done too). :--( > > Penny (pouting) :blushes: must have been the confundus curse, allow me, please, to change that verse Let us raise a host of toasts to all our Flint detectors To Penny, Heidi, Amy Z, To Simon, Neil and Ebony To Carole E and Mike the G And those who are known by their alias (I refer to Cassandra and Caius) To Steve of the Lexicon, also to Jim and John Paul who did tech support, is that a contact sport? From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 1 02:46:56 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 02:46:56 -0000 Subject: COS Chapter 4 - At Flourish and Blotts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9k7qj0+jpec@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23374 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > 1) How do you think Dumbledore already knew that Harry was at the Weasleys? I think that whatever charms, wards, magic has been placed on the Dursleys' house will alert the proper authorities if Harry goes missing. How this system will let Dumbledore, the MoM or whoever, where Harry might be is still a mystery to me. > 2) Why are all the letters from Hogwarts addressed in green ink? Any > significance or just coincidence? Maybe it's Dumbledore's favorite color? The color green does seem to pop up a lot - ink, Avada Kedavra, the Dark Mark over the campsite in GoF...Sorry, but I have no theories. > 3) How do you think the Weasley's were able to afford all the Lockhart books? Perhaps Flourish and Blotts runs a tab? Maybe a benefit of working for the MoM is that family members get discounts for school supplies. > 4) When floo powder is thrown into the fire, the flames turn green. Another > coincidence or something deeper there? Ack - more green...An indication of magic at work??? > 5) Do you think it was wise of the Weasleys to let Harry travel by floo > powder by himself when he had never done so before? Why can't two people > travel by floo powder at the same time? It was probably not a good idea, but to the Weasleys floo powder is a common method of transportation. It's straight-forward for them - throw in the powder, step into the flames and state your destination very distinctly. They probably never even considered that it might be a problem for Harry. As for 2 people travelling together - since it seems fairly easy to fall out of the wrong fireplace, and also does not seem to be the physically smoothest way to transport oneself, if two people start off at the same place at the same time, maybe one might inadvertenly jostle the other into popping out at the wrong destination. > 6) Were you surprised to hear that Malfoy's grades needed improvement? Do > you think it's because Mr. Malfoy has unreasonable expectations of his son > or that Malfoy's grades just aren't up to par? > I think it's a combination of the two. Draco has probably been imbued with a sense of entitlement since he was a baby because he's the heir of the wonderful, pureblood, rich, influential, better than everyone on earth Malfoy family. He may have coasted too much scholastically, thinking that his very Malfoy-ness is enough to pull him through. And, at the same time, old Lucius has probably set up completely unattainably high standards for Draco to meet. The fact that he's been beaten out by Hermione has probably cause no end of intestinal distress for Daddy Malfoy. 7) Percy is found reading a book called "Prefects Who Gained Power: A study > of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers". Do you think this is an > indication that Percy could be seduced to Voldemort's side? No, I think that Percy is a rigid, uptight, "play by the rules" guy, and is looking for any angle that will help him succeed. > 8) What did you first think of Lockhart when you read his description? What > was your opinion of him at the end of the chapter? I wanted to take a shower after meeting him. Smarmy to the max. > 9) Did you make the connection that Lockhart was to be the new DADA > professor before he made his announcement? No, but it made me shudder. What was Dumbledore thinking? Or, who place the gun (or the Avada Kedavra) to his head to make him hire this twit??? > 10) Obligatory Silly Question: Woohoo! It's Harry's birthday! (Or was > Harry's birthday, depending where you are in the world) How did you > celebrate it? Well, I've let people at work know. I work at a Big 5 accounting firm, so people tend to be just a tad formal and serious (no, not Sirius, unfortunately) in their work mode. I've had several people mutter darkly about the need for some sort of "full-blown intervention" to snap me out of this obsession. I, OTOH, think they need to follow the true path to enlightenment, which means they have to take a trip to Hogwarts. Marianne, who doesn't care what those accounting Muggles think From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 02:51:04 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forbidden Forest Visits/LOON/Birthdays In-Reply-To: <9k77qq+lgg5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010801025104.59248.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23375 --- banjoken at optonline.net wrote: > I hope this isn't enough to get me into LOON, but I > have to say it. I > don't think following Snape counts because IIRC, he > flies just above > the forest, but never actually enters it. > > > Ken > > No he actually does enter it. It says he lands on a tree branch so he can listen to the conversation. (Boks are still pack ::Blergh::) so I can't get you an exact quote but he doesn't hover the whole time. So it's still an entry to the forest. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Aug 1 02:51:24 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 02:51:24 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantantem In-Reply-To: <9k6sc9+5geh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k7qrc+g60g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23376 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Narri" wrote: > But Harry has to be special in some other way (most likely in > ability) because there had to have been a reason for Voldemort to > even bother trying to kill him when he was a baby, which caused the > connection you mention (that makes Harry special) in the first place.> Welcome, Narri! And what a nice first post too, to be defending my very favorite character. I have to add my support here. Harry is most definitely special. I'm not saying he's really Superman Harry, but he is special. He doesn't *want* to be special, but he's a talented flyer, speaks Parseltongue, has two quite powerful parents, and is the only known survivor of the Avada Kedavra curse (I also think he's a Seer, but it's not in canon). I don't know about anyone else, but I'm impressed. I'm even impressed he came away from the Dursleys as good a kid as he is. --jenny from ravenclaw, who always must rush to Harry's defense ************************************************************ From buedefixe at netzero.com Wed Aug 1 00:39:12 2001 From: buedefixe at netzero.com (buedefixe at netzero.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:39:12 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forbidden Forest Visits References: <20010731204020.52300.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201c11a46$1f13aaa0$34aa3604@desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 23378 In CoS15 (p. 269 American ed.) it says, "Ron had never been into the Forbidden Forest before. Harry had entered it only once and had hoped never to do so again." This has to refer to his detention, which implies that he didn't "enter" it when he followed Snape. So, unless they've been there another time that we don't know about, I think the only times that Mr. Weasley could be talking about are the detention and the spiders. Ben Jones ---------------------------------------------------- NetZero Platinum Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 1 08:19:32 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 04:19:32 -0400 Subject: Priori Incantantem/Super Harry Message-ID: <76EE9C70.492CA59A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23379 Lots of good and valid reasons have been put forward for inferring that the Priori Incantatem struggle does not necessarily imply that Harry's innate 'wizarding strength' (whatever that means) is greater than Voldemort's. However, even if it is true that under some kind of equal conditions (whatever *that* means) Harry would still beat Voldemort, I would not regard that as making Harry different in kind from other wizards. After all, Voldemort is only human - the lesson that he has spectacularly failed to learn throughout his 70 years. A Muggle parallel would be to say that a great general or a criminal gang leader could be beaten at arm wrestling - it doesn't really tackle the issue of how you really stop him. It would, of course, make Harry exceptional, but we already know that, from 'Moody''s (that's two consecutive apostrophes, nitpickers) Imperius class. David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 11:43:49 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 11:43:49 -0000 Subject: Detection of Underage Magic In-Reply-To: <9k4jur+vqak@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k8q1l+7j3l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23380 One thing i don't understand on this subject is that if they couldn't tell if the hover charm was used by Dobby or Harry, how can they tell if any magic going on is neccesarily due to children in say, the Burrow?? From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 11:53:22 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 11:53:22 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter Comercials In-Reply-To: <3B65EF68.30CBAA48@texas.net> Message-ID: <9k8qji+2mvj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23381 I, too have purchased many Harry Potter related school items! Including notebooks, gluesticks, and every-scent markers (Chocolate Frogs, peppermint humbugs, Quidditch field grass, Dungeon dirt, Pumpkin pasteys, Cauldron cakes, grape marmalade, and yes, SARDINE!!) Very cool... But I do think the merchandise is getting a little out of hand, although I am running out to get all of it... He he... But one thing that bothers me is that they don't make products for any of the other books - only PS/SS!! Why??? That just really bothers me!! From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 1 12:02:19 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 12:02:19 -0000 Subject: FAQs are Available for Viewing [filk] In-Reply-To: <9k78g7+ks9t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k8r4b+a7gg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23382 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > > And those who are known by their alias > (I refer to Cassandra and Caius) Great filk as usual! But what makes you think I'm using an alias? - CMC From mediaphen at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 12:44:59 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 12:44:59 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter in pop culture In-Reply-To: <20010728190904.74073.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9k8tkb+9qng@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23383 Hi everybody! At last Harry has turned up in the best (IMHO) TV-show ever: The Simpsons' neighbour Flanders is reading Harry Potter to his sons. Him being quite religious (for example, he doesn't take insurances because he considers them a way of gambling), he alters the story slightly: "And so, Harry Potter, and all his wizard friends, went straight to hell for practising witchcraft!" and throws the book into the fire, while his sons go: "Yay!" Scene from The Simpsons ep CABF14: "Trilogy of error", quote may not be 100% correct. Satire, thy name is Simpsons. Mr Smith --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea wrote: > If anyone here reads the comic strip "Get Fuzzy", I > made a Harry Potter sighting in it today! In the last > panel, Rob is wearing a Gryffindor Quiddich team > jersey! Check it out. :) > > http://comiczone.com/comics/getfuzzy/index.html > > > > Andrea > Lions for the Cup! > > ===== > "Reality is for people who lack imagination." > From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 1 12:47:15 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 08:47:15 -0400 Subject: FAQs are Available for Viewing [filk] - OT Message-ID: <5035C519.34433EC6.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23384 "Caius Marcius" wrote: >> And those who are known by their alias >> (I refer to Cassandra and Caius) > >Great filk as usual! But what makes you think I'm using an alias? > > - CMC ... and I was taught at school that it's pronounced Guy-us (as in Yoolius Kizer). Or do you say ali'as, not a'lias? David, dredging up his grade 3 'O' Level Latin __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 1 13:27:27 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 08:27:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Detection of Underage Magic References: <9k8q1l+7j3l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6803BF.968C9E79@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23385 Meg Rose wrote: > One thing i don't understand on this subject is that if they couldn't > tell if the hover charm was used by Dobby or Harry, how can they tell > if any magic going on is neccesarily due to children in say, the > Burrow?? Quite possibly the MoM monitors the residences of Muggle-born-and-living students much more closely than full wizarding students. After all, if a wizarding child's parents or friends see him/her doing magic, so what? But a Hogwarts student in the Muggle world is a security risk, and so merits more strict controls. --Amanda, really, really tired of sick kids and sick self [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ebonyink at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 13:31:48 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 13:31:48 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (was A Mistake and a Question) In-Reply-To: <39BE0983.1F0128B1.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9k90c5+7hgo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23386 > Steve Vander Ark wrote: > > >The clincher, though, is going to have to come from our British > >friends. In my opinion, if they say that parents do get to make that > >kind of a choice in British schools (and in fairly traditional > >schools, which Hogwarts certainly is), then I'd say Hermione is young > >for her class. That would almost certainly be what would happen in > >the US. If they say that no, the rule is always Sept 1 and is really > >never broken, then I'd say that Hermione is very old for her grade > >and turns 12 three weeks after the start of their first term in 1981. David wrote: > I am British. > > I think there are two issues to be settled. The first is, what is the British school year. The answer is 1 September to 31 August. > > The second is, how strictly does Hogwarts enforce age limits. Buedefixe is right when s/he points out that parental choice earlier on has little effect. If Hermione *is* 10 when she starts, she might just have to miss her final year at Muggle primary school. > > The fact that JKR has implied a fairly mechanical process would say to me that, in the absence of any reason to the contrary, McGonagall would write to everybody turning 11 in the current school year. She knows of no special circumstance in Hermione's case. There is no mention of parents negotiating (which could only delay entry anyway - the Grangers would not have known of Hogwarts until their letter) entry dates. People like the Malfoys might try, but unlikely Muggles. > > That would make Hermione 11 when she started, and 12 very soon thereafter, and almost a year older than Harry. OK--first off, I realize I have no authority to speak on this, being an American. I dined with several Brits from the lists last weekend and we talked about it... I was the only one who is in the "Hermione was born in 1980, of course" camp. But I think the 1979 date for Hermione's birth is incorrect... and I think that the proof is somewhere embedded in canon, just like I found the rationalization for why Angelina is not a seventh year in GoF. (See archives.) Well, doesn't the fact that Angelina is 17 by October and is an "old" sixth year argue for the fact that Hermione is an "old" sixth year? Not necessarily. There is a place *somewhere* in canon during which Hermione's age is either stated or implied... I know there is!... and it didn't ring the "oh, she's older than everyone else!" bell. If she were nearly a year older than her classmates, I think this not only would have been more obvious in the narrative, but her characterization would have been a bit different as well IMO. The only way I can rationalize Hermione being 12, 13, 14, and 15 years old in the respective books, in light of the way that JKR has portrayed her, is that *if* she had to sit out of school for nearly a year, she might feel as if she needs to prove something academically. British or not, I don't *think* JKR intended for Hermione to be nearly a year ahead when she gave the September 19 date during a chat (which is how we know that is her birthday--unlike Harry's, we don't know the date from canon). If she did, I don't think she would have put her stamp of approval on the actress who she ended up choosing for the movie. From the glimpses I've seen on the trailer, I don't think that Emma Watson is supposed to be portraying a 12 year old. As someone who just spent three years teaching adolescents year- round, I know firsthand that the differences between each age in the 9-14 bracket is PHENOMENAL. And the gradations of personality change seem to vary according to gender too... respectively speaking, looking at the other characters around her, Hermione can't be a year ahead. She's mature, but she isn't *that* mature. We already KNOW how Jo is with numbers... we've already run into several logical contradictions in both canon and planon (Marcus Flint repeating a grade, L&J/MWPP/Snape ages, etc.). While I appreciate the arguments for the 1979 birthdate as an educator (I've spent the entire summer studying the education system in the UK and Wales), as a writer I definitely think Hermione's birthday is September 19, 1980. It just makes more sense. If Hermione were older, I can't help but shake the feeling that something more might have been said about it and that JKR (who is EXCELLENT at spot-on character creation) would have made it more obvious. We have a legal birthday cutoff in my state (students by law must be five years old by December 1st of the year they begin kindergarten), and my baby sister (born February 6) had to wait until the next fall to begin school because of it. But I graduated from high school with kids who were as young as 15 and as old as 19... many of my friends who were on the "younger" side of things had educated parents who either got their four-year olds born in the autumn/winter into kindergarten by any means necessary or, failing that, even put them into PRIVATE school so that they could begin school during the year they turned five. Do you mean to tell me that the British system is so rigid that there is no room for moving that date? Even in 2001? Al, I know you're a British contemporary of the characters... do you mean to tell me that all of the kids in your school fell exactly between the September 1-August 31 boundaries? I'll e-mail a couple of the headteachers I've met this summer today to get their take on this issue. We can pick up this debate in one and a half months' time, I suppose... on 9/19/01, when half of us are wishing Hermione a happy 21st and the other half are saying "no, no! She's 22!" And then there are those people who think we've got the dating all wrong and will be wishing her a happy 15th or a happy 16th... *goes cross-eyed*. All right, back to lurkdom while my faulty logic gets torn to shreds. :-D --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who gets more and more nervous about posting anything of substance to the main list by the hour) From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 15:00:03 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:00:03 -0000 Subject: Detection of Underage Magic In-Reply-To: <9k8q1l+7j3l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k95hj+3g2d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23387 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > One thing i don't understand on this subject is that if they couldn't > tell if the hover charm was used by Dobby or Harry, how can they tell > if any magic going on is neccesarily due to children in say, the > Burrow?? Well, this is partly the point - that underage magic is probably less rigorously enforced for just that reason. In Harry's case, and probably in the cases of other children who live in a Muggle environment, the magic would stand out like a sore thumb because there aren't any adult witches/wizards there. As Harry is the only person who should be there who is magical, they probably assumed that it was him - either that or Dobby grassed on him. Catherine From ebonyink at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 15:30:33 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:30:33 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (was A Mistake and a Question) In-Reply-To: <9k90c5+7hgo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k97ap+5u9d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23388 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" wrote: > There is a place *somewhere* in canon during which Hermione's age is > either stated or implied... I know there is!... and it didn't ring > the "oh, she's older than everyone else!" bell. If she were nearly a > year older than her classmates, I think this not only would have been > more obvious in the narrative, but her characterization would have > been a bit different as well IMO. Heidi led me straight to Canon Proof #1 a few minutes after I posted this: "'It is your turn to listen, and I beg you not to interrupt me, because there is very little time', he said quietly. 'There is not a shred of proof to support Black's story, except your word--and the words of two THIRTEEN YEAR OLD wizards will not convince anybody." --Dumbledore, PoA Chapter 21, "Hermione's Secret" p. 287 (British paperback edition) See, I *knew* I wasn't crazy! So if the end of PoA is in late spring... ...Hermione was born in 1980. --Ebony (who feels sure there's something else in canon to this effect too) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 1 15:47:32 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 11:47:32 -0400 Subject: Hermione's age (was A Mistake and a Question) Message-ID: <0C2FF6F0.7B4F2E1A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23389 Ebony wrote >OK--first off, I realize I have no authority to speak on this, being >an American. No, actually, that's not true. I think what we're talking about is really Hogwarts, rather than general UK, practice. As card carrying Muggles, we all have the same lack of authority there. >Do you mean to tell me that the British system is >so rigid that there is no room for moving that date? In previous posts I may have given that impression. But I don't believe it's that rigid. It's just that, in a chat rather than in the books, JKR described a rather mechanistic system which, under a few unprovable but reasonable assumptions, leads to an 'old' Hermione. Anything in the books which would point to a 'young' Hermione would overrule that, and for finding that, LOONiness rather than Britishness is the main criterion. For the sake of completeness, those assumptions are: 1) Hogwarts operate the same year (1 Sep - 31 Aug) as the rest of UK. BTW, no answer to my Scottish query. 2) The criterion for writing is reaching 11 in the current school year. 3) McGonagall pays no attention to current educational status in Muggle schools when sending letters, i.e. it makes no difference if the Grangers got Hermione into primary school a year early. I have never taken any impression either way from the books, but then I often do miss stuff. >All right, back to lurkdom while my faulty logic gets torn to >shreds. :-D David, whose faulty logic and poor memory have often been shredded - I mean, *someone* has to give the shredders a sense of meaning in their lives __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 16:14:16 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: COS Chapter 4 - At Flourish and Blotts In-Reply-To: <9k7qj0+jpec@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010801161416.80273.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23390 --- Zarleycat at aol.com wrote: > I think that whatever charms, wards, magic has been > placed on the > Dursleys' house will alert the proper authorities if > Harry goes > missing. How this system will let Dumbledore, the > MoM or whoever, > where Harry might be is still a mystery to me. I agree with you that there are probably "Harry on the move!" alarms. As far as how Dumbledore would know Harry's at the Burrow, surely there are some HP-universe equivalents to the basic scrying spell? IOW, some spell Dumbledore can do to look in on Harry. This could also explain how Fudge knew to wait at the Leaky Cauldron for Harry at the beginning of POS. > As for 2 people travelling > together - since > it seems fairly easy to fall out of the wrong > fireplace, and also > does not seem to be the physically smoothest way to > transport > oneself, if two people start off at the same place > at the same time, > maybe one might inadvertenly jostle the other into > popping out at the > wrong destination. It seems that 2 people definitely can*not* use Floo powder at once. Remember when the Weasleys picked Harry up for the QWC? First Mr. Weasley came through, then each of the twins, then Ron. We had separate entrances for each of them. Same when they left, except George took the trunk with him. Perhaps Floo Powder simply won't work on more than one living person. > Well, I've let people at work know. I work at a Big > 5 accounting > firm, so people tend to be just a tad formal and > serious (no, not > Sirius, unfortunately) in their work mode. Really? How interesting. :) I work at Andersen, and when my co-worker (who I was trying to addict to HP) had a copy of PS/SS on her desk, almost everyone who walked by stopped and made comments about how great HP was. Not at all serious...though I'm still keeping my eye out for Sirius. ;) Andrea 7 1/2 inches, maple, phoenix feather ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 1 16:20:35 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 16:20:35 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (was A Mistake and a Question) In-Reply-To: <9k97ap+5u9d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9a8j+fp6h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23391 Ebony quoted: > "'It is your turn to listen, and I beg you not to interrupt me, > because there is very little time', he said quietly. 'There is not a > shred of proof to support Black's story, except your word--and the > words of two THIRTEEN YEAR OLD wizards will not convince anybody." > --Dumbledore, PoA > Chapter 21, "Hermione's Secret" > p. 287 (British paperback edition) > > See, I *knew* I wasn't crazy! > > So if the end of PoA is in late spring... > > ...Hermione was born in 1980. > > --Ebony (who feels sure there's something else in canon to this > effect too) Now this is ironic - this whole thread started (message #23257) with this passage, on the grounds that it must be a Flint! David, vanishing up his own orifice From ebonyink at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 17:16:38 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 17:16:38 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (was A Mistake and a Question) In-Reply-To: <9k9a8j+fp6h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9dhm+1tqi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23392 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > > Now this is ironic - this whole thread started (message #23257) with > this passage, on the grounds that it must be a Flint! > > David, vanishing up his own orifice Okay, I missed that post... that's what I get for not looking HARD for the start of the thread amidst all the Harry's Birthday and ff.net-is-down posts... But even if it is a Flint, it does show that the original authorial intent was to make Hermione the same age as her peers. Even if it contradicts the own laws of her universe, JKR has the right of Divine Intervention in the Harry Potter world. --Ebony (who will never, ever pass the admissions criteria for LOON) From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 17:22:33 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 17:22:33 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (was A Mistake and a Question) In-Reply-To: <9k9a8j+fp6h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9dsp+b8b5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23393 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > Ebony quoted: > > "'It is your turn to listen, and I beg you not to interrupt me, > > because there is very little time', he said quietly. 'There is not > a > > shred of proof to support Black's story, except your word--and the > > words of two THIRTEEN YEAR OLD wizards will not convince anybody." > > --Dumbledore, PoA > > Chapter 21, "Hermione's Secret" > > p. 287 (British paperback edition) > > > > See, I *knew* I wasn't crazy! > > > > So if the end of PoA is in late spring... > > > > ...Hermione was born in 1980. > > > > --Ebony (who feels sure there's something else in canon to this > > effect too) > > Now this is ironic - this whole thread started (message #23257) with > this passage, on the grounds that it must be a Flint! > > David, vanishing up his own orifice Indeed - we're going in circles. I still reckon its more likely (as it would fit in with the schooling system) that she's older - I don't think that one mention canon is enough to say for sure that she's younger. From joym999 at aol.com Wed Aug 1 18:33:25 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 18:33:25 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest Message-ID: <9k9i1l+ck33@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23394 Hello all -- I will be posting the results of the latest contest, in which you were asked for ideas for an HP-themed fair or party, sometime tomorrow. So, if you want to submit an entry, do it today. If you submitted an entry and did NOT receive a response from me, then I did not get your entry (direct email from the Yahoo website often does not work). Submit entries by email (preferable from your own email software) to HP4GUCon at aol.com (that is, HP4GUCon AT aol DOT com). I will post a new contest on Friday. -- Joywitch From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 19:17:09 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 19:17:09 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (was A Mistake and a Question) In-Reply-To: <9k9a8j+fp6h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9kjl+mo0b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23395 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > Ebony quoted: > "'It is your turn to listen, and I beg you not to interrupt me, > because there is very little time', he said quietly. 'There is not > a shred of proof to support Black's story, except your word--and > the words of two THIRTEEN YEAR OLD wizards will not convince > anybody." --Dumbledore, PoA, Chapter 21, "Hermione's Secret" > p. 287 (British paperback edition) At the risk of being seen as a wet blanket, I would like to point out that we cannot pull small chunks of dialogue out of context for intense analysis. As Dumbledore says above, "there is very little time" during that particular conversation and he is focussed on getting our intrepid duo on the move as fast as possible. In that context, Dumbledore could be forgiven for rounding up or down Hermione's age to the closest year. In fact, if he'd said "the words of a thirteen year old wizard and a fourteen year old witch", it would have struck readers as very improbable at that particular moment in the book. So while LOON-ing is great, we should keep a sense of perspective about the whole thing. From mervin180 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 19:21:43 2001 From: mervin180 at yahoo.com (mervin180 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 19:21:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's Birthday: FAQs are Available for Viewing In-Reply-To: <3B66AFA3.C73F713@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9k9ks7+v0l0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23396 > In honor of Harry's birthday, I'm pleased to make the long-awaited > announcement that the FAQs (which are about 60% complete at this point) > are available for viewing at the following: > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > > Penny > FAQ Team Slave-driver I just spent almost 2 hours reading the FAQs and the only word that comes to mind is WOW!!!!! What an incredible resource of information and ideas! My congratulations to all of those that put together the FAQs. The amount of knowledge, heart, and effort that went forth into making this is simply phenomenal. I do have one question, though. In the James & Lily FAQ, under the question "Is James Potter a descendent of Godric Gryffindor?" it states James and Lily lived in Godric's Corner. In my copy of SS (American paperback edition) it states James and Lily were from Godric's Hollow. Does the name of their home vary in different editions of the book? Just wondering. Again, congratulations to all those that worked on the FAQs. You all did a fantastic job!!! ***Angie*** (who is wondering if reverse-howlers exist...perhaps something that emits words of highest praise and satisfaction, and if itremains unopened, bursts into a flurry of confetti and beautiful music :) From mervin180 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 19:33:04 2001 From: mervin180 at yahoo.com (Angela Pelnar) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Birthday: FAQs are Available for Viewing In-Reply-To: <3B66AFA3.C73F713@swbell.net> Message-ID: <20010801193304.60142.qmail@web14912.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23397 --- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > Hi everyone -- > > In honor of Harry's birthday, I'm pleased to make > the long-awaited > announcement that the FAQs (which are about 60% > complete at this point) > are available for viewing at the following: > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > I just spent almost 2 hours reading the FAQs and the only word that comes to mind is WOW!!! What a wonderful source of ideas and information. Congratulations to all of those who put these FAQs together! The amount of knowledge, heart, and effort involved is simply phenomenal. I do have one question, though. In the James and Lily FAQ, under the question "Is James Potter a descendent of Godric Gryffindor?" it states that James and Lily were living in Godric's Corner at the time of their deaths. In my copy of SS (American paperback edition) it states they were living in Godric's Hollow when Voldemort killed them. Is this an FAQ error, or does the name of the Potter's home vary in different editions of the books? Just wondering. Again, congratulations to all of those who worked so hard to create the FAQs! ***Angie*** (who is wondering if reverse-howlers exist...perhaps something that emits words of highest praise and satisfaction, and if left unopened, bursts in a shower of confetti and beautiful music) :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 19:41:10 2001 From: r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com (r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 19:41:10 -0000 Subject: Why Voldie's curse rebounded ... In-Reply-To: <9k6am5+8vi1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9m0m+oft8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23398 > > Michelle wrote: > > here's a big ol' what if. > > What if Voldie's curse rebounded off of harry because they > > share the same blood? > > > Catherine wrote: > There's just one major flaw to this argument - Harry is the > spitting image of James, apart from the eyes. "Remarkably" so, > according to Dumbledore. Yes, Harry is the spitting image of James, but they both look like someone else -- when Tom Riddle comes out of the diary in the Chamber of Secrets he's described as tall and dark-haired. Hmmmmm. I don't subscribe to the "Star Wars/Voldie as Harry's father theory" (although thanks Michelle, for the vivid description of V. and Lily's lunchtime quickie :)). It's probably been discussed here before, but why is V. described as looking so much like Harry and James? Why does Harry think he's heard Tom Riddle's name, like an old school friend? Why are Harry and V. both half-bloods? JKR seems to be pointing (or throwing a red herring) to some relation (but the Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives) or "Heir of Slytherin/Gryffindor" connection. Any theories? Red Queen From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Aug 1 20:16:54 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 20:16:54 -0000 Subject: Ebony's LOONiness and Welcome Newbie! Message-ID: <9k9o3m+3ks4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23399 First of all, Ebony, I'm the moron who posted that the Whomping Willow was in the FF, so don't feel bad about not being a L.O.O.N. LOON or not, you usually defend your arguments well enough to leave me speechless - except for that pesky H/H business you go on about occasionally . Second, I'd like to welcome a very close friend of mine to the list. She finished GoF not too long ago and signed up today! Hooray! I wouldn't let her see the list until she finished GoF. Her name is Madrid (pronounced May-drid) and she's a real Ravenclaw, not just in name only, like some other people around here (coughmecough). Welcome Madrid! --jenny from ravenclaw************************************* From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 20:34:07 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 20:34:07 -0000 Subject: Questions to JKR In-Reply-To: <9k7bjt+koei@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9p3v+me9l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23400 > I am working on a letter to JKR. I need to ask her the status of the > new trading cards (how much input did she give and should those > spells and facts be considered canon). Anyone want to suggest any > other good questions to ask? No, I won't ask about the gleam or who > falls in love with who or any of those kinds of things. But factual > details that don't give anything away, sure. So what shall I ask her? > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon I hope she answers, or should I say I hope that your letter makes it through the gauntlet of filters protecting her from the hundreds she must get in a week. Anyway, I would like to know definitively how many students are at Hogwarts. Is it ~300, ~600, or ~1000? Are there two more Griffindor girls in Harry's year per the Boggart class? If so, do they have names? While you are at it, you might ask her about the details that will be in the movie. For example, the closing credits will list all the speaking parts. Will any new characters or heretofore unrevealed names become cannon or should they be asterixed? From indigo at indigosky.net Wed Aug 1 20:57:04 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 20:57:04 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter Comercials In-Reply-To: <9k8qji+2mvj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9qf0+3adp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23401 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: But one thing that bothers me is that they don't make products > for any of the other books - only PS/SS!! Why??? That just really > bothers me!! Easy. The merchandising is not in accompaniment to the entire [currently] four-book series. The merchandising is in accompaniment to the movie that comes out this fall -- and so far there's only one of those, though I have no doubt it will do well enough to warrant sequels. It better. ;) Indigo From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 21:43:24 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:43:24 -0000 Subject: Harry's Birthday: FAQs are Available for Viewing In-Reply-To: <20010801193304.60142.qmail@web14912.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9k9t5s+pg1m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23402 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Angela Pelnar wrote: > > --- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer > wrote: > > Hi everyone -- > > > > In honor of Harry's birthday, I'm pleased to make > > the long-awaited > > announcement that the FAQs (which are about 60% > > complete at this point) > > are available for viewing at the following: > > > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > > > I just spent almost 2 hours reading the FAQs and the > only word that comes to mind is WOW!!! What a > wonderful source of ideas and information. > Congratulations to all of those who put these FAQs > together! The amount of knowledge, heart, and effort > involved is simply phenomenal. > ***Angie*** (who is wondering if reverse-howlers > exist...perhaps something that emits words of highest > praise and satisfaction, and if left unopened, bursts > in a shower of confetti and beautiful music) :) Agreed. Although as a R/H-er I do have to say that in the Romance section that the two main bits are hopelessly imbalanced (too much pro H/H and too little con, and the reverse with R/H) and all the pro H/H points were silly anyway :). Seriously (not that the last sentence wasn't serious - ahem), well done and thanks to everyone involved. From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 21:58:23 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:58:23 -0000 Subject: Why Voldie's curse rebounded ... In-Reply-To: <9k9m0m+oft8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9u1v+sgak@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23403 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., r_e_d_queen at y... wrote: > > > Michelle wrote: > > > here's a big ol' what if. > > > What if Voldie's curse rebounded off of harry because they > > > share the same blood? > > > > > > Catherine wrote: > > There's just one major flaw to this argument - Harry is the > > spitting image of James, apart from the eyes. "Remarkably" so, > > according to Dumbledore. > > Yes, Harry is the spitting image of James, but they both look like > someone else -- when Tom Riddle comes out of the diary in the > Chamber of Secrets he's described as tall and dark-haired. Hmmmmm. > I don't subscribe to the "Star Wars/Voldie as Harry's father theory" > (although thanks Michelle, for the vivid description of V. and > Lily's lunchtime quickie :)). > > It's probably been discussed here before, but why is V. described as > looking so much like Harry and James? Why does Harry think he's heard > Tom Riddle's name, like an old school friend? Why are Harry and V. > both half-bloods? JKR seems to be pointing (or throwing a red > herring) to some relation (but the Dursleys are Harry's only > living relatives) or "Heir of Slytherin/Gryffindor" connection. > Any theories? > > Red Queen True, there may be a passing resemblence as far as height and dark hair is concerned, but there is a lot more to physical similarities than that. As far as James and Harry are concerned, if their physical resemblence is so uncanny, there must be more to it thatn mere hair colour and height. There is the way they both have the same untidy hair, it is probable that they have the same shaped nose, mouth, similar physique. I can't remember any mention in canon that James, Harry and Voldemort actually look similar apart from the dark hair - Harry, at the moment is short for his age. I don't recall James' height being mentioned. Voldemort is described as being tall. In my mind, this means that superficially he could just as well look similar to Cedric Diggory! What I am saying is that there is a similarity between Voldemort and Harry - partly due to upbringing and partly to do with the part of Voldemort which was transferred to Harry on the night the curse rebounded. However, physically, it is no more than superficial and a coincidence. IMO, there's a difference. Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 22:05:22 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 22:05:22 -0000 Subject: Ebony's LOONiness and Welcome Newbie! In-Reply-To: <9k9o3m+3ks4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9uf2+111q9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23404 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > First of all, Ebony, I'm the moron who posted that the Whomping Willow > was in the FF, so don't feel bad about not being a L.O.O.N. LOON or > not, you usually defend your arguments well enough to leave me > speechless - except for that pesky H/H business you go on about > occasionally . > > Second, I'd like to welcome a very close friend of mine to the list. > She finished GoF not too long ago and signed up today! Hooray! I > wouldn't let her see the list until she finished GoF. Her name is > Madrid (pronounced May-drid) and she's a real Ravenclaw, not just in > name only, like some other people around here (coughmecough). Welcome > Madrid! > > --jenny from ravenclaw************************************* I'd like to second your remarks about Ebony's arguments. As she knows, I am definitely a LOON, and I know that this can be annoying sometimes. What staggered me was that Ebony's post contained a comment about feeling more and more reluctant to post to this list. As far as I'm concerned, she writes some of the most eloquent posts around, which probably have a great deal of gut feeling in them. This is good - it is intuitive analysis. It makes me feel that we are all getting a bit too nitpicky. Am I right, or have we overanalysed to the point that it is all we are left with? Catherine, who doesn't want to sound too cynical, but fears that she does. Roll on Book 5. From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 1 22:11:12 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 22:11:12 -0000 Subject: Why it's called the Order of the Phoenix. In-Reply-To: <9k6s6p+o0c3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9uq0+5qfp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23405 >Knowing that Harry would be connected to Voldie by their wands >because of some ancient prophecy, the Order was set up to protect >Lily and James and Harry. It's made up of their closest friends and >some other people that Dumbledore trusts (Arabella Figg which >explains why she lives near the Dursleys. She can keep an eye on >Harry at all times). I dunno those are just the ramblings of a 15 >year old. Anyone got a different opinion or just think I'm loony? I don't think you are a loony, and actually out of all the theories I have heard this has to be the best! However I have a feeling that Arabella was one of their closest friends (poss. Lily's best friend or a girlfriend of Remus or Sirius?) I also think this group did include Snape. Am I the only person who thinks Lily was a Ravenclaw? Or has JKR contradicted this already? It's just that Lily's wand was 'good for Charm work' and Professor Flitwick (teacher of charms) is head of Ravenclaw. Is Charms possibly a subject Ravenclaws excel at? Would that mean that Gryffindors should be good at Transfiguration (would fit with the whole MWPP animagus thing)? Slytherins good at Potions and Hufflepuff at Herbology? Anyone have any theories? Sofie Gryffindor and would love to be an animagus! From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 22:13:03 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 22:13:03 -0000 Subject: Questions to JKR In-Reply-To: <9k9p3v+me9l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9k9utf+rcj0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23406 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > Anyway, I would like to know definitively how many students are at > Hogwarts. Is it ~300, ~600, or ~1000? Are there two more Griffindor > girls in Harry's year per the Boggart class? If so, do they have > names? Judging by canon, JKR implies that there are a lot more students at Hogwarts than seems likely on what we're given. I don't know if the FAQ for this is up yet, but Penny wrote an excellent post on this recently, which summarised the various schools of thought on the subject. Message no: 18,454. My above comment about canonical evidence - both in the numbers JKR talks about and other things, such as the number of people in Harry's year, it seems to me that a very clear answer from JKR wouldn't be very helpful, as she doesn't seem very clear in her own mind about it. Is this sacrilege? I hope not! Catherine From buedefixe at netzero.com Wed Aug 1 23:10:57 2001 From: buedefixe at netzero.com (buedefixe at netzero.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:10:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] COS Chapter 4 - At Flourish and Blotts References: Message-ID: <000d01c11adf$53721860$46ec3604@desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 23407 From: "Amber ?" > Questions: > > 2) Why are all the letters from Hogwarts addressed in green ink? Any > significance or just coincidence? Maybe it's Dumbledore's favorite color? > > 4) When floo powder is thrown into the fire, the flames turn green. Another > coincidence or something deeper there? > I was curious enough about the significance of colors in Harry Potter to catalogue all the uses of green I could find. Most, if not all, of these are just coincidence and have no deeper meaning, but I didn't discriminate (who am I to decide what means something and what doesn't). This is hopefully a pretty complete list of everything green in Harry Potter and the chapter in which it first appeared. Let me know if I missed any. More colors may follow (particularly red), but it takes a couple hours to put a list like this together. If I've duplicated some other obsessive person's work, let me know so I can stop and get therapy. Otherwise I wont get therapy until I'm finished. :-) Ben Jones (who warns everyone who thinks this sounds like a waste of time to stop reading now. What follows will prove it.) ---------------------------------------------------------- Green in Harry Potter SS1-older man's cloak was emerald green SS1-McGonagall wearing emerald cloak SS2-Harry has bright green eyes SS2-Blinding flash of green light SS2-wild-looking woman dressed all in green had waved at Harry on a bus SS3-emerald-green ink on Hogwarts letter SS3-Vernon's face goes from red to green while reading letter SS4-"Happy Birthday Harry" written in green icing on cake. SS5-Hagrid turns green on Gringott's cart SS5-green smoke billowed out of Harry's vault at Gringotts SS6-green bean tastes like sprouts SS6-dark green hills on the way to Hogwarts SS7-McGonagall is wearing emerald-green robes to greet new students SS7-Harry turned pale green in expectation of wearing the Sorting Hat SS8-Longbottom's failed potion issues acid green smoke SS12-Slytherin plays Quiditch in green robes SS12-Harry's first Weasley sweater is emerald-green SS12-Harry's mom has bright green eyes SS12-several of Harry's relatives have green eyes SS14-Common Welsh Green dragons in Britain SS14-Ron's cut from Norbert turns a nasty shade of green SS15-Hagrid instructs students to send up green sparks if they find the unicorn SS17-Slytherin's colors are green and silver COS2-Dobby has green eyes the size of tennis balls COS3-Ron turns green when his mom appears COS3-big green pond full of frogs in Weasley's garden COS3-Mr. Weasley wears dusty travel-worn robes COS4-floo fire turns emerald green COS5-slimy something in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk COS6-Mandrakes leaves are purplish green in color COS6-Mandrake has pale green, mottled skin COS7-errant charm from Ron's wand gives Flitwick a green boil COS7-Ron's wand backfires with a jet of green light that gives him slugs COS8-green mold on the cheese at the deathday party COS10-Lockhart wears green robes COS11-Longbottom buys an evil-smelling green onion COS11-a haze of greenish smoke hovered over the scene after Harry's duel with Draco COS12-greenish lamps hung in the slytherin common room COS14-Cornelius Fudge has a lime-green bowler COS16-Basilisk has vivid, poisonous green skin COS16-carved serpents have emeralds for eyes COS17-an odd, greenish gloom filled the chamber of secrets POA1-Monster book of Monsters was leathery and green POA3-Madam Marsh was faintly green POA3-Fudge wore a bottle-green suit POA5-Ministry cars were dark green POA7-Shrinking potion is acid green POA7-Longbottom's grandmother wears a long green dress POA7-a banshee's face is green-tinged POA8-water demons are a sickly green color (and have green teeth) POA10-marauder's map is written in green ink POA11-Trelawney wears a green sequined dress to Christmas dinner POA14-Harry threw foul-smelling green sludge at Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle POA17-Ron's white face was tinged with green due to his broken leg GOF1-A flash of green light killed Frank Bryce GOF6-a dull, greenish tinge around the horizon showed that daybreak was coming GOF7-Ireland's color is green GOF7-Bulgarian flag is white, green, and red GOF9-a burst of strong green light illuminated the Death Eater parade GOF9-The Dark Mark was green GOF10-Harry's dress robes are bottle-green GOF12-Dumbledore wears deep green robes embroidered with many stars and moons GOF13-Bubotuber puss is yellowish-green GOF14-"Moody"'s Avada Kedavra sends of green light GOF18-"Potter Stinks" lights up in green on badges GOF18-Rita's quill is acid-green GOF20-Cedric looks green as he goes to face the dragon GOF20-Rita wore acid-green robes to the dragon competition GOF21-tickle a green pear to get into the kitchen GOF23-Dobby made Harry a green sock with snitches GOF23-Harry's Weasley sweater was green with a dragon on it GOF23-Crabbe and Goyle wore green to the Yule Ball GOF26-Gillyweed was greyish-green GOF26-Harry's hands looked green and ghostly under the water GOF26-Lake bottom covered with light green weed GOF26-Merpeople had long, wild, dark green hair GOF26-Fleur's sister looked ghostly green GOF32-green light from Wormtail's killing of Cedric GOF34-jet of green light from Voldemort's avada kedavra ---------------------------------------------------- NetZero Platinum Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 23:23:01 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 23:23:01 -0000 Subject: Questions to JKR: Sirius Black of course! In-Reply-To: <9k9p3v+me9l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ka30l+k43n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23408 Here is what I want to know: In a recent interview, Rowling said that she has written full biographies of all of her characters, containing details which though not necessary to the plot are helpful to her in imagining the charcater. I believe she said specifically that she had such a bio of Sirius Black. Without revealing anything that might ruin the future books, could she tell us a little bit more about his life? Where is he from? What was his family like? Was he in fact the heart-throb of Hogwarts? What is his middle name? What is his birthday? What color are his eyes? I would like to know what kind of stuff came up in his biography as she was writing it. What pivotal things happened early in his life which shaped the kind of person he would become? --Suzanne --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > I am working on a letter to JKR. I need to ask her the status of the > > new trading cards (how much input did she give and should those > > spells and facts be considered canon). Anyone want to suggest any > > other good questions to ask? No, I won't ask about the gleam or who > > falls in love with who or any of those kinds of things. But factual > > details that don't give anything away, sure. So what shall I ask > her? > > Steve Vander Ark > > The Harry Potter Lexicon > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon > > I hope she answers, or should I say I hope that your letter makes it > through the gauntlet of filters protecting her from the hundreds she > must get in a week. > > Anyway, I would like to know definitively how many students are at > Hogwarts. Is it ~300, ~600, or ~1000? Are there two more Griffindor > girls in Harry's year per the Boggart class? If so, do they have > names? > > While you are at it, you might ask her about the details that will be > in the movie. For example, the closing credits will list all the > speaking parts. Will any new characters or heretofore unrevealed > names become cannon or should they be asterixed? From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 23:32:09 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 23:32:09 -0000 Subject: Ebony's LOONiness and Welcome Newbie! In-Reply-To: <9k9uf2+111q9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ka3hp+m1tc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23409 >It makes me feel that we are all getting a bit too nitpicky. Am I >right, or have we overanalysed to the point that it is all we are >left with? Yup. And to avoid getting thumped by a Moderator, I will add that a lot of the analysis focuses on single paragraphs or in some cases even single sentences without taking into account the context of the scene or chapter. I don't think JKR ever anticipated the minute analysis her books would be subject to on lists like this one and sometimes we just have to shrug our shoulders or agree to wait for an explanation in a later book. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 1 23:41:06 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 23:41:06 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy Message-ID: <9ka42i+e1ki@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23410 I know we've speculated that Snape might use polyjuice potion to disguise himself on his return to the Death Eaters. I just thought of a twist on that...what if he originally joined Voldemort under an assumed identity in the first place? It's not so far fetched...I remember my father explaining that in his radical youth he'd been a card-carrying Communist...but the card had an assumed name. In that case, Voldemort might not know that the Death Eater he believes has left him forever is in fact Severus Snape...the only DE who would know is Karkaroff, which is why Snape encourages him to flee. It would also explain how Dumbledore could safely expose Snape in the courtroom and yet expect him to take up his role as spy again: no Death Eater besides Karkaroff would know that Snape had penetrated the Inner Circle. It would also explain why Voldemort didn't behave as if Snape was one of his servants when he was inhabiting Quirrel. Feel free to pick holes in this, as usual Pippin From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Aug 2 00:25:20 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 17:25:20 -0700 Subject: More Questions to JKR In-Reply-To: <9k7bjt+koei@eGroups.com> References: <9k777v+nl5i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010801135524.00cd17f0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23411 At 10:31 PM 7/31/01 +0000, Steve Vander Ark wrote: >I am working on a letter to JKR. I need to ask her the status of the >new trading cards (how much input did she give and should those >spells and facts be considered canon). Anyone want to suggest any >other good questions to ask? No, I won't ask about the gleam or who >falls in love with who or any of those kinds of things. But factual >details that don't give anything away, sure. So what shall I ask her? There are *plenty* of questions I'd like to ask her! Among them: -- Is the Ministry of Magic a democratic body, e.g. could Hermione someday run for Minister of Magic (on the SPEW ticket, presumably)? -- Is it only a coincidence that "Severus Snape" is an anagram of "Perseus Evans"? -- Could the Wizarding world be on a different calendar than Muggles? (Could help reconcile some of the timeline problems.) -- Why is Peeves afraid of the Bloody Baron? -- Will we ever see Norbert or Fluffy again? -- Will Harry take any new classes? (Divination's getting tiresome.) -- Will Harry get to play *any* Quidditch at all in the next three years? -- Will we ever find out what Dumbledore *really* sees in the Mirror of Erised? Is that enough? :) -- Dave From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 00:54:26 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 00:54:26 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9ka42i+e1ki@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ka8c2+10s7m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23412 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > I know we've speculated that Snape might use polyjuice potion to > disguise himself on his return to the Death Eaters. I just thought of a > twist on that...what if he originally joined Voldemort under an assumed > identity in the first place? It's not so far fetched...I remember my > father explaining that in his radical youth he'd been a card-carrying > Communist...but the card had an assumed name. > In that case, Voldemort might not know that the Death Eater he > believes has left him forever is in fact Severus Snape...the only DE > who would know is Karkaroff, which is why Snape encourages him to flee. > It would also explain how Dumbledore could safely expose Snape in the > courtroom and yet expect him to take up his role as spy again: no Death > Eater besides Karkaroff would know that Snape had penetrated the Inner > Circle. It would also explain why Voldemort didn't behave as if Snape > was one of his servants when he was inhabiting Quirrel. > Feel free to pick holes in this, as usual > > Pippin Occam's Razor JKR is seldom that convoluted. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 00:51:45 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 00:51:45 -0000 Subject: Questions to JKR In-Reply-To: <9k9utf+rcj0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ka871+3bnf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23413 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > Anyway, I would like to know definitively how many students are at > > Hogwarts. Is it ~300, ~600, or ~1000? Are there two more > Griffindor > > girls in Harry's year per the Boggart class? If so, do they have > > names? > > Judging by canon, JKR implies that there are a lot more students at > Hogwarts than seems likely on what we're given. I don't know if the > FAQ for this is up yet, but Penny wrote an excellent post on this > recently, which summarised the various schools of thought on the > subject. Message no: 18,454. > > My above comment about canonical evidence - both in the numbers JKR > talks about and other things, such as the number of people in Harry's > year, it seems to me that a very clear answer from JKR wouldn't be > very helpful, as she doesn't seem very clear in her own mind about > it. Is this sacrilege? I hope not! > > Catherine Yes, Catherine, I am aware of that post. I am also well aware of the FAQ. This is a topic that has been highly dicussed in every HP board I have ever visited. So if our beloved lexiconist is putting together a letter to her, this would be an ideal time for her to address it, that is if she even sees it. I hope she does. She seems to enjoy discussing the minute details of her universe. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 01:24:50 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 01:24:50 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Wand and the M Map (FAQ Critique) Message-ID: <9kaa52+3lt5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23414 I have just finished pursuing the FAQ. My hat is off to all those hard workers. I am very impressed. Two topics sprang to mind while reading them. *Hagrid's Wand* Why can Hagrid do magic with his umbrella holding the pieces of his wand but Ron can't with his broken wand? I can't remember what Hagrid's core was but unless it was Phoenix feather, it likely would not be very brittle. So when they broke it or "snapped" it -- I believe he tells Harry -- the oak would break in two, but the core would likely be undamaged. Now if Hagrid were to place that core inside of the shaft of his umbrella, he would have essentials of a wand -- ie: an unbroken casing of wood and magical core. Ron's broken wand had a broken casing, and I think the core might have been damaged as well. That is why Hagrid's pseudo-wand worked and Ron's didn't. One more thing -- True, we are not told that Hagrid got a new wand after CoS, but we weren't told he didn't either. *Marauder's Map* How do the dots work? I have always assumed that only people who are moving, pacing, jumping, struggling, etc. show up. If you are simple sitting or sleeping, you don't show up. I can't remember anybody -- Harry, Lupin, Snape, or Barty Jr. -- who saw anybody being still. Marcus From ebonyink at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 01:36:50 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 01:36:50 -0000 Subject: Ebony's LOONiness and Welcome Newbie! In-Reply-To: <9ka3hp+m1tc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kaari+u9lj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23415 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mgrantwich at y... wrote: > >It makes me feel that we are all getting a bit too nitpicky. Am I > >right, or have we overanalysed to the point that it is all we are > >left with? > > > Yup. > And to avoid getting thumped by a Moderator, I will add that a lot of > the analysis focuses on single paragraphs or in some cases even > single sentences without taking into account the context of the scene > or chapter. Right. Perhaps I am overreacting, but I am really beginning to feel that it's getting to the point on this list where you're d--ed if you do and d--ned if you don't. If you DON'T cite canon in a post taking a position on one side of an issue or the other, then it is implied that your analysis is inferior or it is considered OT and not appropriate for the list. If you DO cite canon to support your position, then it seems as if your citation can be considered out of context and your logic completely faulty because you are not quoting whole paragraphs or adding a full explanation of the scene. July 25th marked my one year anniversary as a member of this list. And this is what I thought about last week on that day: Last year this time I could post to HP4GU without getting a horrible cold feeling whenever I push send... now I'm always thinking "Is this OT- Chatter fodder? Has this been discussed recently or ever? Will I get a virtual hand-slap?" Which is why I switched to webview this spring... there were things that I wanted to say, but I was tired of all the second-guessing. As I've said, I am not L.O.O.N. material because *that* side of my brain is not sharp enough. When I read, I am not one to chop an author's work to pieces... this is because I am a creative writer-in- training myself, and I understand that while most writers value "getting it right" when it comes to the minute details, there is an overall impression, an overarching theme and purpose, a sense of everything working together in its place. This sense of "rightness" is either there in creative writing, or it is not. So while I love the L.O.O.N.s of the world (one of them beta-reads my fanfic because of that darn sluggish side of my brain!), I also do think there's a place for the R.E.S.T. (Reading for Entertainment, Style, and IntenT) of us. Not only when it comes to the fluff posts, but when it comes to "deep" analysis too. I really wish I had kept out of the Hermione's birth year thread now since I couldn't find the post that began the thread and my re-post of the quote seemed to annoy (rightfully, I'm sure!) some of those who had been following it. My first mind was not to post anything at all... I've had the feeling of "being out of place" and "not being analytical enough" whenever I've posted something here to the main list for months now. What the old folks say about following your first mind is very true. And that's why I lurk. Simple as that. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 01:50:19 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 01:50:19 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (was A Mistake and a Question) In-Reply-To: <9k9kjl+mo0b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kabkr+olnc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23416 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mgrantwich at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > > Ebony quoted: > > "'It is your turn to listen, and I beg you not to interrupt me, > > because there is very little time', he said quietly. 'There is not > > a shred of proof to support Black's story, except your word--and > > the words of two THIRTEEN YEAR OLD wizards will not convince > > anybody." --Dumbledore, PoA, Chapter 21, "Hermione's Secret" > > p. 287 (British paperback edition) > > At the risk of being seen as a wet blanket, I would like to point out > that we cannot pull small chunks of dialogue out of context for > intense analysis. As Dumbledore says above, "there is very little > time" during that particular conversation and he is focussed on > getting our intrepid duo on the move as fast as possible. In that > context, Dumbledore could be forgiven for rounding up or down > Hermione's age to the closest year. > > In fact, if he'd said "the words of a thirteen year old wizard and a > fourteen year old witch", it would have struck readers as very > improbable at that particular moment in the book. > > So while LOON-ing is great, we should keep a sense of perspective > about the whole thing. I do agree that we cannot take everything everybody says in the books as gospel. There are plenty of statements made by good guys that are shown to be false. I also doubt that Dumbledore -- brillant as he is -- knows the precise age of every student in the school at any given time. It is also a fact that we must take what he says in the context of the moment. However, Dumbledore specifically did say "two thirteen year old wizards." He did not say "two young wizards", nor did he say, "two underaged wizards". He didn't even say, "two third years". He chose to say, "two thirteen year old wizards." My point? My point is that unless JKR says differently, or something more definitive shows up; if we are looking for Hermione's age in respect to Harry's, we are pretty much stuck with that statement -- unreliable though it might be. Are there any other statements in cannon that cast doubt on Dumbledore's statement? Marcus P.S: Where I grew up, the cut-off day was Nov 1. I was born Oct 27. Ouch!! From devika261 at aol.com Thu Aug 2 02:38:04 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 22:38:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Similarities between Harry and Voldemort Message-ID: <9e.180ca5bd.289a170c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23417 In a message dated 8/1/01 7:18:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk writes: > True, there may be a passing resemblence as far as height and dark > hair is concerned, but there is a lot more to physical similarities > than that. As far as James and Harry are concerned, if their > physical resemblence is so uncanny, there must be more to it thatn > mere hair colour and height. There is the way they both have the > same untidy hair, it is probable that they have the same shaped nose, > mouth, similar physique. I can't remember any mention in canon that > James, Harry and Voldemort actually look similar apart from the dark > hair - Harry, at the moment is short for his age. I don't recall > James' height being mentioned. Voldemort is described as being > tall. In my mind, this means that superficially he could just as > well look similar to Cedric Diggory! > > What I am saying is that there is a similarity between Voldemort and > Harry - partly due to upbringing and partly to do with the part of > Voldemort which was transferred to Harry on the night the curse > rebounded. However, physically, it is no more than superficial and a > coincidence. IMO, there's a difference. > In GoF, Ch. 34, James's "shadow" is described as being that of "a tall man with untidy hair." At the moment, then, Harry is not taking after his father as far as height is concerned. However, the last we hear of him, he's only 14, so he still has plenty of time to grow, and I'm sure he will. I believe that all of the references to the physical similarities between Harry and Voldemort, as well as their similarities in upbringing only serve to strengthen JKR's (and Dumbledore's) point that it is our choices that shape who we are. Harry and Voldemort provide a perfect example of this. As Tom Riddle pointed out in CoS, their were likenesses in his and Harry's pasts. However, Tom chose one path and Harry quite clearly has chosen another for his future. Harry and Voldemort, so similar at first glance, even physically, are two very different people, and this is as a result of their choices and not their upbringings. The fact that Harry's and Voldemort's wands share cores seems to me to imply that there was a possibility that the two of them had similar potentials when they each began at Hogwarts. (I'm making the assumption that Voldemort's wand was the first one he bought before he went to Hogwarts for the first time.) Tom Riddle had just as great a potential for good as Harry had for evil (Gryffindor vs. Slytherin). They both had very powerful wands and the abilities to do great things. However, Tom's future was set by his decision to join the dark side and become Lord Voldemort, just as Harry's future will be influenced by his decision to fight against Voldemort. I agree with you that the similarities between Harry and Voldemort, whether coincidence or results of the curse that failed, are superficial. These, IMO, only reinforce the idea that we all have the ability to overcome our pasts and control our own futures. Devika, who hasn't posted in a while--hope this one is worth it! *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them." --Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's [Philosopher's] Stone *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 02:06:20 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 02:06:20 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantantem/Super Harry In-Reply-To: <76EE9C70.492CA59A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kacis+fki1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23418 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > However, even if it is true that under some kind of equal conditions (whatever *that* means) Harry would still beat Voldemort, I would not regard that as making Harry different in kind from other wizards. After all, Voldemort is only human - the lesson that he has spectacularly failed to learn throughout his 70 years. > > A Muggle parallel would be to say that a great general or a criminal gang leader could be beaten at arm wrestling - it doesn't really tackle the issue of how you really stop him. > > David True, but tyrants do not like to be shown losing. It destroys the illusion and creates doubts in the mind of followers. A parallel would be the battle of Waterloo. The French were not really destroyed at Waterloo. They still had a viable army. But once the Old Guard was beaten back, the mystique of Napolean was forever shattered and nobody wanted to serve him anymore. Voldemort staged this whole thing to prop up his wavering followers. He was going to destroy his destroyer in front of their eyes. Instead they saw Harry defeat him in a battle of will-power and wits. Voldemort chose the terms of the fight, not Harry. And Voldemort lost. You don't think that at least one of those DE's isn't thinking, "This guy couldn't kill him when he was an infant, and he can't kill him as a 14-year-old?" Marcus From relliott at jvlnet.com Thu Aug 2 02:10:44 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 21:10:44 -0500 Subject: Draco Malfoy and his homelife References: <996708357.9453.91348.l8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c11af8$5722e200$dfb191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23419 As I was reading GoF (again), I noticed Draco Malfoy's mothers name is Narcissa. I immediately remembered my Greek Mythology. Narissus was a beautiful youth who pines away for love of his own reflection. Narcissism means to be in love with yourself or egocentric. My question is "What kind of homelife does Draco really have?" Sure he is given enough money and presents but, is he really loved. One speculation I have is that Draco will find someone to unconditionally love him and break away from the dark side (his parents and friends), foil Voldermorts plan, and save innocent lives? The HP series has talked about second chances. Could Draco become the next Snape? Any thoughts or theories? I would love to hear them. From john at walton.to Thu Aug 2 03:04:26 2001 From: john at walton.to (john at walton.to) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 23:04:26 EDT Subject: Hermione's age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23420 Replying to this rather late... Eb: > Do you mean to tell me that the British system is > so rigid that there is no room for moving that date? Even in 2001? It certainly wasn't that rigid, *particularly* in the independent school system, when I went to school. In fact, it was VERY flexible. I was always the youngest (see below), and there were often people two years older than I was in my class. > Al, I know you're a British contemporary of the characters... do you > mean to tell me that all of the kids in your school fell exactly > between the September 1-August 31 boundaries? I'll e-mail a couple > of the headteachers I've met this summer today to get their take on > this issue. As another British contemporary of the characters (358 days younger than Hermione, September 12th), I can empathise with her situation. I was always the youngest in my year, and I certainly felt that I had something to prove, and prove it I did. I went into Third Year (supposed age 13+) at the age of 12 and turned 13 three days later. ::grin:: Did I mention that I graduated top of my class? ::halo:: > --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who gets more and more nervous about posting > anything of substance to the main list by the hour) I'm very upset to hear this -- I often find your posts among the most interesting, well-thought out and thought-provoking of our members. This list is not supposed to be intimidating, although of course I understand that it can often feel so, with people nitpicking away at one's posts, logic, grammar etc. Let's try to bear in mind that some people like to do that, and sometimes folks do forget to add the positive comments before the nitpicking. As the founder of LOONIEST (eyes roll ::roll, roll::) I am often guilty of this. If it's anything I've said, I apologise sincerely! --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" --Percy Bysshe Shelly (NB: "Bysshe" rhymes with "fish" not "fleish".) ________________________________ From mcandrew at bigpond.com Thu Aug 2 03:15:30 2001 From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (mcandrew at bigpond.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 03:15:30 -0000 Subject: More Questions to JKR In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010801135524.00cd17f0@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9kagki+seeb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23421 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > At 10:31 PM 7/31/01 +0000, Steve Vander Ark wrote: > >I am working on a letter to JKR. ....... > > There are *plenty* of questions I'd like to ask her! Among them: > .... ...... > -- Will we ever find out what Dumbledore *really* sees > in the Mirror of Erised? > > Is that enough? :) > > > -- Dave Dave & Steve, It probably is more than enough, but it seems many of us would also like to know definitively whether Hermione is older or younger than Ron and Harry. I had assumed she was older, because of the quoted birth date and her apparent greater maturity, but a lot of well argued opinions have been advanced to the contrary. In fact I get the feeling many members are quite desperate for her to be younger, perhaps because they feel that she can't be an item with either Ron or Harry without being younger than her bloke? (I wouldn't worry too much about this though - slightly younger male/older female works at least as well, based on my own experience) Lama From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 2 03:34:41 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 22:34:41 -0500 Subject: A New L.O.O.N. bursts upon us (was At Flourish and Blotts) References: <000d01c11adf$53721860$46ec3604@desktop> Message-ID: <3B68CA50.54E07AAD@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23422 buedefixe at netzero.com wrote: > I was curious enough about the significance of colors in Harry Potter > to catalogue all the uses of green I could find. Most, if not all, of > these are just coincidence and have no deeper meaning, but I didn't > discriminate (who am I to decide what means something and what > doesn't). As a founding member of L.O.O.N., I hereby move that in the case of this distinguished personage, despite his (actually laudable) reluctance to assign Meaning to his findings, the usual many-page documents, entrance examinations, psychological screenings, blood tests, etc., be waived and his status as a L.O.O.N. recognized. Some have L.O.O.N.iness thrust upon them, but I think Ben here is a L.O.O.N. born. Welcome! [Go read the FAQs if you think this post was anything but a warm and slightly awed welcome] --Amanda (I may actually get to the point of analyzing the list; I'm still just amazed. You must not have kids...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From toomanyideas at aol.com Thu Aug 2 03:49:30 2001 From: toomanyideas at aol.com (toomanyideas at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 03:49:30 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and his homelife In-Reply-To: <000401c11af8$5722e200$dfb191d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <9kaika+5a46@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23423 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachelle Elliott" wrote: > As I was reading GoF (again), I noticed Draco Malfoy's mothers name is > Narcissa. I > immediately remembered my Greek Mythology. Narissus was a beautiful youth > who pines > away for love of his own reflection. Narcissism means to be in love with > yourself or > egocentric. My question is "What kind of homelife does Draco really have?" The thought that Narcissa may well have some VEELA in her has crossed my mind. But alas, that would make Draco NOT of PURE BLOOD. Or maybe she is the one who is a vampire--which would also have to be a big family secret in the PURE BLOOD world. So in answer to your second comment about a change coming over him. Maybe he will find this stuff out and realize that his father's is a hypocrite. Then he could grow up and stop trying to follow in his father's path...even if he is in Sl From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com Thu Aug 2 04:04:51 2001 From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:04:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco Malfoy and his homelife Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23424 So in answer to your second comment about a change coming over him. Maybe he will find this stuff out and realize that his father's is a hypocrite. Then he could grow up and stop trying to follow in his father's path>>>>snip>>>> I agree, plus..... Draco is basically just all talk. He only hates those that aren't pure-blooded because his father does. I think he has a vague idea that his father does some shady stuff--he did accompany him into Knockturn Alley in PoA (I think it was)--but that his father is in with Voldemort--I don't think he has any idea of that. I see Lucius, in one of the future books, confiding all the Voldemort stuff to his son and trying to convert him to his side, but I see Draco getting scared and not wanting to join. He thinks it's funny that the non-pure-blooded people are scared of "the heir of Slytherin" and of Voldemort coming back, but I don't think he actually thinks it will happen again or that he's so close to it. I see Draco getting scared and finally admitting to Harry--"Wow, you guys really were right. That's some powerful stuff you're up against." .....Well, maybe not in those words exactly lol, but something like that. 8) Anyone agree? ***Dixie Malfoy*** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 04:29:35 2001 From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Lizzie) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 04:29:35 -0000 Subject: two things that are annoying me Message-ID: <9kakvf+p1eg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23425 I just noticed something - in GoF chapter 22 (p344 in my ed), Eloise's last name is spelt Midgeon. Then, on p348 it's spelt Midgen. Flint? Typo? Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? Elizabeth C xxx From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 04:35:40 2001 From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Lizzie) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 04:35:40 -0000 Subject: two things that are annoying me In-Reply-To: <9kakvf+p1eg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kalas+jc8v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23426 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lizzie" wrote: > I just noticed something - in GoF chapter 22 (p344 in my ed), > Eloise's last name is spelt Midgeon. Then, on p348 it's spelt Midgen. > Flint? Typo? Hmm. It's different in my hardback GoF, but I just checked my paperback of GoF, and it's spelt Midgen both times. > Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the > Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? > > Elizabeth C > xxx Me again. Responding to my own posts. Gah. From mcandrew at bigpond.com Thu Aug 2 04:44:19 2001 From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (mcandrew at bigpond.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 04:44:19 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) Message-ID: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23427 A few queries about the events in GoF have bubbled to the surface of my pensieve. None of these impact on the future of the plot or characters much, some are pretty trivial actually, but I'd be interested in your views on any or all of them just the same. Humble apologies if any of these have been dealt with before... I can't remember seeing them, have just examined the brand new & wonderful FAQs without finding mention, [Ebony AKA, please see note below] and also find that the search engine on our site doesn't handle the huge volume of archived queries too well. (Longing for such searching conveniences as boolean logic and date fields..) 1) Chap 30, The Pensieve. (p. 524 UK ed) Harry, discussing the trials he has just been visiting, asks Dumbledore whether Crouch Jr was really involved in torturing the Longbottoms. Dumble says 'As to that, I have no idea.' Why? Dumbledore sat as a member of the Council of Magical Law which passed a guilty verdict on Crouch Jr for exactly that crime. Is Dumbledore saying he didn't agree with his own verdict as a member of that panel of judges? If he wasn't sure of Crouch's guilt, why didn't he cast a dissenting vote? Or has he changed his mind since? 2) Chap 36, Parting of the Ways. (p. 617-8 UK) At Harry's hospital bedside after the third task, Sirius and Snape are introduced to each other by Dumbledore - but not until Madam Pomfrey has left the room and is out of hearing. Obviously he doesn't trust her as he does Snape or Molly Weasley, who is still present. Yet Pomfrey is a highly respected member of Dumbledore's handpicked staff. So why is she regarded as so much less trustworthy than some of the others? 3) Chap 33, The Death Eaters. The graveyard scene, Voldemort has just emerged from cauldron. On first addressing Harry, he calls him 'Potter', but almost straight away switches to 'Harry', which is how he addresses Harry for the rest of the evening. Why does he use Harry's first name? Normally this would be a mark of affection or familiarity - e.g. it's used by Dumbledore as well as Harry's friends, whereas the more distant teachers (e.g. McGonagall), enemies like Malfoy, and notably Snape, call him 'Potter'. Actually, given the relationship between Harry and Voldemort, I would expect V. perhaps to be very formal and pronounce Harry's full name 'Harry Potter' in addressing him. So why the familiar 'Harry'? Not that I don't like the effect - I love it. The fatherly affection for Harry which it implies, contrasts with his actual treatment of Harry in this scene so beautifully. 4) (Trivia alert 'on') Voldemort presumably emerges from the cauldron naked - and thankfully cloaked in steam! Wormtail then puts a robe on him. But what does he do about footwear? It must be uncomfortable chasing Harry around a stony graveyard in bare feet... or is he weightless and therefore able to get by without shoes? Or, perhaps, unable to feel pain or discomfort in his new reincarnation? (Must be chilly without undergarments either.) 5) Pronunciation: I don't find this much of a problem generally, but the name 'Nagini' usually causes a hiccup when reading aloud to my son. I've settled on pronouncing it with an elongated 'a', a soft 'g' and the accent on the second syllable. Would you agree? I could go on, but maybe that's enough disjointed topics for one message. - Lama - Note to Ebony AKA: Please keep on writing to the list. I, like many others I'm sure, really enjoy your thoughtful posts, whether in agreement or not. OK, the rules, while understandable, can be intimidating and some of us have to muster our courage to hit that 'send' button... (I have made Harry my role model in that regard) - Lama From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 04:54:02 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 04:54:02 -0000 Subject: two things that are annoying me In-Reply-To: <9kakvf+p1eg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kamda+i397@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23428 "Lizzie" wrote: > Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the > Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? > > Elizabeth C > xxx "The first task is designed to test your daring," HP4 CH17. How daring is summoning an egg? Marcus From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 04:56:24 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 04:56:24 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) In-Reply-To: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kamho+mqn5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23429 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mcandrew at b... wrote: > > 3) Chap 33, The Death Eaters. The graveyard scene, Voldemort has just > emerged from cauldron. On first addressing Harry, he calls > him 'Potter', but almost straight away switches to 'Harry', which is > how he addresses Harry for the rest of the evening. Why does he use > Harry's first name? Normally this would be a mark of affection or > familiarity - e.g. it's used by Dumbledore as well as Harry's > friends, whereas the more distant teachers (e.g. McGonagall), enemies > like Malfoy, and notably Snape, call him 'Potter'. Actually, given > the relationship between Harry and Voldemort, I would expect V. > perhaps to be very formal and pronounce Harry's full name 'Harry > Potter' in addressing him. So why the familiar 'Harry'? Not that I > don't like the effect - I love it. The fatherly affection for Harry > which it implies, contrasts with his actual treatment of Harry in > this scene so beautifully. > > LV addresses Harry by his given name in order to establish dominance. Anyone who has been pulled over by a cop for a driving infraction has experienced this unwarranted familiarity. LV is also being sarcastic. He knows that he is no friend to Harry/ > (Must be chilly without undergarments either.) I dunno. Ask Archie. (scene by the tents at the QWC) > > > 5) Pronunciation: I don't find this much of a problem generally, but > the name 'Nagini' usually causes a hiccup when reading aloud to my > son. I've settled on pronouncing it with an elongated 'a', a > soft 'g' and the accent on the second syllable. Would you agree? > > Both Jim Dale and Stephen Fry pronounce it with a hard "g", accented on the second syllable. I am going to reread the Pensieve scene right now. Your question is most intriguing. Haggridd From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 04:56:27 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 04:56:27 -0000 Subject: On Respect and Kindness Message-ID: <9kamhr+a521@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23430 This may be the most important thing I will ever post here, even though it doesn't have the words "Harry Potter" in it anywhere (except here, obviously). Ebony's post and all its subsequent responses represent to me a call of our attention to a tragedy occuring in our midst. Although I do not know Ebony at all, I admire her courage in bringing up this issue when she might just as well felt stifled enough to remain mute. I admire the courage of those who have voiced agreement with her sentiments. It takes courage to admit to people that they are making you feel badly. Let me say first off that I can be a bit of a nitpicker. In a bizarre way, finding minute details or even flaws in things that I love only increases my love of that thing. Not everyone, of course, is like this. My sister is not at all a nitpicker. She appreciates things solely in the grand design and does not like to look at them under a microscope. But she understands overall themes at least as well as I do; she can argue her points; she is capable of great insight and clarity of thought (although she herself might not say so). In short, she brings every bit as much to discussions of this sort as I do. It would be a shame for people in this group to feel like they can't contribute. What really is the issue here? Is it that we nitpick? No, I think that is an inherent part of this sort of focused discussion group not to mention some people's personalities. Nitpicking in and of itself is not hurtful. Neither Ebony nor any of her responders seems to have voiced the notion that we should stop nitpicking. The bigger issue is that we all need to think about what sort of impact the things we say will have on people. It is always the small things that get overlooked here, but they add up. Constant corrections start to seem like heaps of criticism. Having statements refuted minutes after you open your mouth make you never want to share again. Some people are more sensitive to this than others. We first must respect that sensitivity and not dismiss it as 'their problem'. They are not 'touchy' or 'overly-sensitive'. If someone misunderstands what you say, then it is you who miscommunicates yourself. They cannot change what they hear. We must change what we say. Call me an idealist, but I do not believe anyone here has the intention of hurting others feelings. But text is a tricky thing, even more tricky than communication is in general. We need to watch that what we say is not misconstrued. That our jokes are clearly such and probably generally avoid jokes that are If, in my brief tenure here, I have made anyone feel like they were stupid or their opinion didn't matter or I otherwise damaged their feelings then I am profoundly sorry. Please understand that was never my intention, nor will it ever be in my future posts. Other people are more important than our pride. A lot of us (myself included) do not like to admit that we have pride, but we do and we are quite protective of it. We also sometimes do things to further our pride that we think are harmless, but they're really not. I believe this is often why we feel compelled to point out mistakes. We should be candid, but that need not make us tactless. Outside of other people and more in terms of appreciating the books, I think we must also be careful not to lose sight of this principle: The purpose of analysis is not to destroy beauty, but to enhance it by identifying its sources. That's a paraphrase of a quote my Freshman English teacher had on the wall. I don't remember the exact words or the attributed speaker. As long as we generally adhere to this, I think we'll be okay in this regard. I apologize for getting on my soapbox here and I realize I may have even exaggerated the problem. I don't know since I haven't been here that long, and in fact my personal experience here in that time has been largely positive. But consider the possible exaggeration a counter to people's natural tendencies to underestimate the impact the things they do have on each other. The terrifying truth is that we are more powerful than we dream to be. -Luke From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 05:06:18 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 05:06:18 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) In-Reply-To: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kan4a+etql@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23431 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mcandrew at b... wrote: > 5) Pronunciation: I don't find this much of a problem generally, but > the name 'Nagini' usually causes a hiccup when reading aloud to my > son. I've settled on pronouncing it with an elongated 'a', a > soft 'g' and the accent on the second syllable. Would you agree? Nagini is the Hindi word meaning 'snake' (in case you're curious :) ) and having heard the word in other contexts I believe it is pronounced Nah-GEE-nee with a hard 'G' sound. This would be easier to ilustrate if I could use phonetic symbols, but hopefully that's enough to figure it out. Hope that helps, Luke From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 05:08:55 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 05:08:55 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) In-Reply-To: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kan97+c7k4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23432 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mcandrew at b... wrote: > > 1) Chap 30, The Pensieve. (p. 524 UK ed) Harry, discussing the > trials he has just been visiting, asks Dumbledore whether Crouch Jr > was really involved in torturing the Longbottoms. Dumble says 'As to > that, I have no idea.' Why? Dumbledore sat as a member of the > Council of Magical Law which passed a guilty verdict on Crouch Jr for > exactly that crime. Is Dumbledore saying he didn't agree with his > own verdict as a member of that panel of judges? If he wasn't sure > of Crouch's guilt, why didn't he cast a dissenting vote? Or has he > changed his mind since? > Was he a member? I always got the impression he was there as an observer / advisor / witness. > 2) Chap 36, Parting of the Ways. (p. 617-8 UK) At Harry's hospital > bedside after the third task, Sirius and Snape are introduced to each > other by Dumbledore - but not until Madam Pomfrey has left the room > and is out of hearing. Obviously he doesn't trust her as he does > Snape or Molly Weasley, who is still present. Yet Pomfrey is a > highly respected member of Dumbledore's handpicked staff. So why is > she regarded as so much less trustworthy than some of the others? Simple rule of security, the more people that know something, the more likely it gets blabbed. Also, why tell her? Madame Pomfrey doesn't even ask Ron where he got the poisoned hand bite in HP1. Surely she will heal anybody who needs it, without question? > 3) Chap 33, The Death Eaters. The graveyard scene, Voldemort has just > emerged from cauldron. On first addressing Harry, he calls > him 'Potter', but almost straight away switches to 'Harry', which is > how he addresses Harry for the rest of the evening. Why does he use > Harry's first name? Normally this would be a mark of affection or > familiarity - e.g. it's used by Dumbledore as well as Harry's > friends, whereas the more distant teachers (e.g. McGonagall), enemies > like Malfoy, and notably Snape, call him 'Potter'. Actually, given > the relationship between Harry and Voldemort, I would expect V. > perhaps to be very formal and pronounce Harry's full name 'Harry > Potter' in addressing him. So why the familiar 'Harry'? Not that I > don't like the effect - I love it. The fatherly affection for Harry > which it implies, contrasts with his actual treatment of Harry in > this scene so beautifully. I suspect he has grinding into Harry the fact that he is a big strong wizard and Harry is a little boy. > 4) (Trivia alert 'on') Voldemort presumably emerges from the > cauldron naked - and thankfully cloaked in steam! Wormtail then puts > a robe on him. But what does he do about footwear? It must be > uncomfortable chasing Harry around a stony graveyard in bare feet... > or is he weightless and therefore able to get by without shoes? Or, > perhaps, unable to feel pain or discomfort in his new reincarnation? > (Must be chilly without undergarments either.) Good point. But he really didn't do that much chasing, did he? > 5) Pronunciation: I don't find this much of a problem generally, but > the name 'Nagini' usually causes a hiccup when reading aloud to my > son. I've settled on pronouncing it with an elongated 'a', a > soft 'g' and the accent on the second syllable. Would you agree? > For what it is worth, I pronounce it Nah - GEEN - nee. That and 50 cent American can buy a carton of milk. :) Marcus From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 05:30:31 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 05:30:31 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) In-Reply-To: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kaohn+jnuc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23433 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mcandrew at b... wrote: > > 1) Chap 30, The Pensieve. (p. 524 UK ed) Harry, discussing the > trials he has just been visiting, asks Dumbledore whether Crouch Jr > was really involved in torturing the Longbottoms. Dumble says 'As to > that, I have no idea.' Why? Dumbledore sat as a member of the > Council of Magical Law which passed a guilty verdict on Crouch Jr for > exactly that crime. Is Dumbledore saying he didn't agree with his > own verdict as a member of that panel of judges? If he wasn't sure > of Crouch's guilt, why didn't he cast a dissenting vote? Or has he > changed his mind since? > - Lama - I think I can reconcile this matter. Crouch, Sr addresses the jury on the RIGHT side of the hall, who are those who vote to convict Crouch, Jr. Harry is on the LEFT side (pg. 513) and Dumbledore is next to him (pg. 514) therefore also on the left. Dumbleore was not on the jury and had no vote to cast one way or the other. Haggridd From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 05:30:53 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 22:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Trials -- JKR Questions In-Reply-To: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010802053053.69470.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23434 --- mcandrew at bigpond.com wrote: >Is Dumbledore saying he didn't agree >with his own verdict as a member of >that panel of judges? If he wasn't >sure of Crouch's guilt, why didn't he >cast a dissenting vote? Or has he >changed his mind since? Albus Dumbledore was not on the jury in any of the trials. He was in the courtroom but not in any official capacity. Questions for JKR: Who paid for Harry's first broom? How did they revive Nearly Headless Nick? I'd like to hear from Herself what year Harry, etc. were born (No offense to Lexicon Steve;-) How old are all the Weasleys? Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From buedefixe at netzero.com Thu Aug 2 06:31:22 2001 From: buedefixe at netzero.com (buedefixe at netzero.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 23:31:22 -0700 Subject: New L.O.O.N. turns red References: <000d01c11adf$53721860$46ec3604@desktop> <3B68CA50.54E07AAD@texas.net> Message-ID: <001f01c11b1c$c0859a20$90a20404@desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 23435 Amanda wrote: >As a founding member of L.O.O.N., I hereby move that in the case of this >distinguished personage, despite his (actually laudable) reluctance to >assign Meaning to his findings, the usual many-page documents, entrance >examinations, psychological screenings, blood tests, etc., be waived and >his status as a L.O.O.N. recognized. Some have L.O.O.N.iness thrust upon >them, but I think Ben here is a L.O.O.N. born. I am not a nitpicker! I don't even know what color a _nit_ is. I always preferred the more P.C. (Potterically Correct) title of snitchseeker, but oh well. Speaking of which, maybe gold will come next. I'm a soon-to-be college Junior whose friends have abandoned him to more scenic summer locales (my employer didn't seem to think I need a change of scenery), which leaves me time to make esoteric lists (any requests?). Anyway, here's tonight's offering for any L.O.O.N. who cares. I wonder why JKR pairs red with gold so often? Ben Jones (who is desperately trying to convince himself that the past two hours of creating this list will sharpen his quidditch skills) --------------------------------------------------------------- Red in Harry Potter SS2-Dudley goes red in the face for lack of presents SS3-Vernon's face goes from red to green as he read the letter SS5-Goblin outside Gringott's wore a uniform of scarley and gold SS5-Harry's face goes red when Hagrid offers a present SS5-streams of red and gold sparks shoot from Harry's wand SS6-Weasley's have red hair SS6-The Hogwarts Express had a scarlet steam engine SS6-Harry turns red as twins recognize him SS6-Ron's face goes red when called riffraff SS7-deep red curtains on the four-poster beds SS8-Neville's failed boil-curing potion causes angry red boils SS9-Neville's Remembrall turns red if he's forgotten something SS10-The quaffle is bright red SS11-Griffindor wears scarlet robes SS11-Dean mentions soccer red card SS12-Hagrid turns red with wine (no more faces) SS12-Harry's mom had dark red hair SS13-the windows of Hogwarts glowed red in the setting sun SS15-Hagrid says to send up red sparks in case of trouble SS15-Ronan the centaur has red hair, beard, and tail SS17-Sorcerer(Philosopher)'s stone is blood red SS17-Voldemort face has glaring red eyes SS17-Quirrell's burned hands are red and shiny SS17-Griffindor colors are scarlet and gold COS3-brilliant red rising sun on the way to the burrow COS3-the Burrow has a red roof COS5-filibuster fireworks filled the kitchen with red and blue stars COS6-howlers come in red envelopes (so much for red letter days) COS6-Venemous Tentacula plant is dark red COS11-Snape's wand shoots a flash of scarley light with his "Expelliarmus" COS12-Fawkes has wonderful red and gold plumage COS13-Harry's ink bottle smashes, drenching his books in scarlet ink COS13-Hermione's Revealer looks like a bright red eraser COS13-ruby red setting sun COS14-Cornelius Fudge wore a scarlet tie COS16-blood red setting sun COS17-Tom Riddle had an odd red gleam in his hungry eyes POA4-Rat tonic comes in red bottle POA4-Mr. Weasley's ears turn red like Ron's do when under pressure POA6-Trelawney drapes many of her lamps with dark red scarves POA7-Neville's grandmother carries a big red handbag POA8-Red Caps are goblins that lurk where there's been bloodshed POA10-Fudge drinks red currant rum POA11-Harry gets a scarlet Weasley sweater with a Griffindor lion POA16-the sun casts a ruby-red glow in the west POA17-Lupin bursts into the room in a shower of red sparks GOF7-Bulgaria's flag is white, green, and red GOF7-Bulgaria memorabilia is primarily red GOF8-Leprechauns wear red vests GOF9-"Stupefy" sends jets of fiery red light GOF12-Peeves drops a large, red, water balloon on Ron's head GOF15-Golden Beuxbatons horses have fiery red eyes GOF16-Goblet's flames change from blue-white to sparkling red as names are entered GOF16-flames change again when spitting out champions GOF18-"Support Cedric..." written in red on badges GOF18-Rita has scarlet-taloned fingers GOF19-Chinese Fireball is red with a fringe of fine gold spikes around its face GOF23-Dobby makes Harry a red sock with broomstick pattern GOF23-McGonagall wore dress robes of red tartan GOF26-Harry's "relashio" causes red patches on grindylows GOF27-Rita makes Hermione out to be some sort of scarlet woman :-) I know, I know... GOF31-patrolling teachers wear large, red, luminous stars GOF31-red sparks for trouble in the maze GOF32-ugly baby voldemort was a dark, raw, reddish black with gleaming red eyes GOF32-potion turned a burning red with the addition of Wormtail's hand GOF33-Dark Mark tattoo is a vivid red GOF34-jet of red light from Harry's wand ---------------------------------------------------- NetZero Platinum Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 From JenniferABacker at cs.com Thu Aug 2 06:47:52 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:47:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] two things that are annoying me Message-ID: <116.2904a7d.289a5198@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23436 In a message dated 8/1/01 11:33:59 PM Central Daylight Time, nizbet_noni at hotmail.com writes: << Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? >> I don't think this has been mentioned yet but he could have done that with the map too. (If this was mentioned, sorry but Yahoo and Compuserve is a bad combo!) If he would have hidden the map, Snape wouldn't be so quick to assume's it's Harry's. (He probably would have though.) That's bugged me forever. He probably just freaked and wasn't thinking straight. Forge From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 07:04:38 2001 From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth C) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 17:04:38 +1000 Subject: Weasel Legend - Colours (was: At Flourish & Blotts) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23437 I read on a message board about name symbolism that "Ron Weasley" may have been derived from the legend of the Running Weasel, who was very good at chess, and killed by a yellow rat. That fits really well with Ron's surname, his chess skills and the possibility that he may be killed by Wormtail - remember when he tried to turn 'Scabbers' yellow on train in PS/SS? There's just one small thing - a search of the web has failed to come up with any type of 'Running Weasel' legend. Anyone else heard of it? And Ben, we must be on the same plane of thought - I'm in the middle of a list of where purple comes up! >From Lizzy, her freaky-weird-coincidence quota for today now filled. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From JenniferABacker at cs.com Thu Aug 2 07:34:03 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 03:34:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Questions to JKR: Sirius Black of course! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23438 You could also ask similar questions for Remus. I know Lupin's middle initial is J but what's the full name? How old was he win he was bitten? etc. Also what is his and Dumbledore's Patronus if they're not important to the story. Forge From ebonyink at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 11:07:31 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 11:07:31 -0000 Subject: Analysis and HP4GU (was Re: On Respect and Kindness) In-Reply-To: <9kamhr+a521@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbc9j+gq20@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23439 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > > Ebony's post and all its subsequent responses represent to me a call > of our attention to a tragedy occuring in our midst. Although I do > not know Ebony at all, I admire her courage in bringing up this issue > when she might just as well felt stifled enough to remain mute. I > admire the courage of those who have voiced agreement with her > sentiments. What a nice post, Luke. However, my feelings were less hurt than you might think... I've been on this list long enough to know the cycles of such debates, the personalities of the veteran debaters (just as they know that I'm extremely sensitive and volatile--occupational hazard and heredity), and the fact that there are those who just like to disagree for disagreement's sake. So it wasn't courage at all, because I feel like I know these people... I just get nervous about posting lately because of the way that things have changed. For example, David's response to my post was one that I thoroughly enjoyed--although we are of differing opinions on the issue--and I was going to respond to his post, but I felt rather cut-off in midsentence by others. Now, you will not find a poster who is more careful with canon than L.O.O.N. David... but he doesn't brush the R.E.S.T. of us aside. Again, I do not mind nitpicking, having coming up with a Few Good Ones myself in my day. (Even we right brain dominant folks can pull a couple of tricks out of that left side from time to time. :-D) This is what I think has happened here, and judging from the number of e-mails I've gotten off list over the past 24 hours, I don't think I'm alone. I just feel brave enough to say it because it has not been addressed yet, but it is a concern that many of those who are too intimidated to post have. Perhaps I can compare canon to a chicken leg (apologies to all vegetarians--think of it as tofu!) to explain what I'm thinking of. ;-) At first, when GoF came out last July, there was plenty of meat on the leg for everyone. Every new post and thread seemed fresh and fun and new. There wasn't a lot of friction at all... because GoF was a big book with a lot in it and nothing had been discussed at length yet. After a while, there was less meat on this leg. Veterans began to snap at new members because they came on list asking questions we'd already discussed at length before. This practice continues even now... I got chided by three posters for bringing up something a month ago that has been discussed before. This annoyed me for two reasons: 1) it hadn't been discussed in MONTHS and 2) we have never come to a consensus about it since I've been a member... and for a project Heidi and I worked on this spring I had to read all the archived posts, so I basically have an idea of every single thread that's ever come up here and I *knew* for a fact that it was OK to discuss. I am sure that at least one of the people in question hasn't done *that*. IMHO, if consensus has not been reached on an issue, then it has effectively been tabled and is open for debate at a later time. I have said this for MONTHS on end--why in the world get upset with a newbie or a veteran when they rehash if the post is OK according to the guidelines? There are other newbies who just may want to discuss the issue but are afraid of the backlash--WHY should people feel as if they have to apologize all over their induction post? "I'm so sorry if this has been discussed before, but... (some point about wand order/Dumbledore's gleam/number of students)." SO WHAT? Let them say what they want! Some of the same people who regularly "tsk tsk" at rehash have absolutely no problem when THEIR pet threads are rehashed. What I think has happened now--and this is just my opinion--is that many of us who have been around for a while feel that we have picked the chicken bone that is Books 1-4 clean. Even the gristle is gone. So half of us are full... and the other half are busily cracking into the marrow. I'm on a couple of literary discussion lists where canon is actually closed... the writers are dead and the books are classics. But you don't have the same feeling of "picking bones". And indeed, you have several levels of posting on those lists, from lighthearted teen musings about why they love a certain character or scene to scholars/archivists who specialize in that particular author. Rather than the disdain for the "less sophisticated" that I've seen here (and don't SAY that it doesn't exist here--it does!), the learned are tolerant of the foibles of children and the "foolish". Believe me when I say that I DO appreciate analysis and logic. I teach Advanced Placement Composition. I'm entering my second year as an English grad in rhetoric and composition studies (minor in creative writing)... which means I am actually planning to study and analyze how people write for a living. So analysis is really my bread and butter... but a bit of what I've observed here while mainly lurking this spring and summer is IMHO utterly and absolutely ridiculous. My grad school colleagues and I have a term for such practices. As I've said, to each their own. But I think I'll pass on day-to-day viewing of the list and wait until the movie comes out. Although judging from the subtle undertone I've picked up from following the preliminary discussions about it, I suppose we'll just hack that to death too, won't we? Ah. Love you guys anyway. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From s_ings at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 12:08:03 2001 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 05:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] On Respect and Kindness In-Reply-To: <9kamhr+a521@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010802120803.23095.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23440 --- caliburncy at yahoo.com wrote: > I apologize for getting on my soapbox here and I > realize I may have > even exaggerated the problem. I don't know since I > haven't been here > that long, and in fact my personal experience here > in that time has > been largely positive. But consider the possible > exaggeration a > counter to people's natural tendencies to > underestimate the impact the > things they do have on each other. The terrifying > truth is that we > are more powerful than we dream to be. > > -Luke > Goodness, don't apologise - that was wonderfully said. I tend to lurk a great deal of the time, but mostly because whatever I have to say has generally already been said (and often in a much better way than I would say it!). I also know how difficult it can sometimes be to communicate in writing, so easy to have things misunderstood because what you mean when your typing something doesn't always come across to whoever is reading it. Sheryll, who really has nothing to add, but wanted to respond to this great post anyway! ===== "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mcandrew at bigpond.com Thu Aug 2 12:28:46 2001 From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (mcandrew at bigpond.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:28:46 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) In-Reply-To: <9kaohn+jnuc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbh1u+dn5k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23441 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mcandrew at b... wrote: > > > > > 1) Chap 30, The Pensieve. (p. 524 UK ed) Harry, discussing the > > trials he has just been visiting, asks Dumbledore whether Crouch Jr > > was really involved in torturing the Longbottoms. Dumble says 'As > to > > that, I have no idea.' Why? Dumbledore sat as a member of the > > Council of Magical Law which passed a guilty verdict on Crouch Jr > for > > exactly that crime. Is Dumbledore saying he didn't agree with his > > own verdict as a member of that panel of judges? If he wasn't sure > > of Crouch's guilt, why didn't he cast a dissenting vote? Or has he > > changed his mind since? > > > - Lama - > I think I can reconcile this matter. Crouch, Sr addresses the jury on > the RIGHT side of the hall, who are those who vote to convict Crouch, > Jr. Harry is on the LEFT side (pg. 513) and Dumbledore is next to him > (pg. 514) therefore also on the left. Dumbleore was not on the jury > and had no vote to cast one way or the other. > > Haggridd I said 'dissenting vote', I probably should have said 'dissenting judgment'. Dumbledore appeared to be sitting next to Crouch Sr on the bench with the other judges - not on the jury, I agree. And if he was sitting on the bench, it seems likely that he was more than just an observer. I guess the jury would have to have the final say in a jury trial, but normally the judges would advise the jury as to the correct verdict, and maybe that's where Dumbledore should have spoken up. - Lama - From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Aug 2 12:29:58 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:29:58 -0400 Subject: Chicken Meat (was Analysis and HP4GU, and On Respect and Kindness) Message-ID: <76496B15.2E9ADFDB.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23442 Ebony wrote: >Perhaps I can compare canon to a chicken leg (apologies to all >vegetarians--think of it as tofu!) to explain what I'm thinking >of. ;-) > and >Ah. Love you guys anyway. > Firstly, thank you to Ebony, Luke and John Walton for freedom-inducing posts. Second, I want to try to move on by suggesting deeper topics that I don't believe have been recently discussed, and I'm not sure were fully discussed earlier. (I should just come clean here and say that I have certainly not read the entire archive - I have not even chased all the references in the FAQs, though I intend to do so) Relationships. The development of the friendship betwen Harry, Ron and Hermione has many nuances which I believe go beyond their romantic potential. What makes Harry special? This has been explored a good deal, but I think to some extent perceived as 'special Harry' versus 'ordinary Harry'. I would say that Harry, even as conceived by the 'ordinary' proponents, is special, and that we have more of a triangular set of possibilities: a. Harry is special in his innate characteristics (as foreshadowed by his Quidditch and Imperius resisting abilities, but with something more needed to defeat Voldemort) b. Harry is special in his relationships, mainly that his mother loved him, but possibly also what he got from Voldemort (Parseltongue, the scar) or Gryffindor c. Harry is special in his choices, in some ways the most interesting as he could stop being special at any time by changing his choices. This topic is difficult to debate because the single most compelling piece of evidence that we have of his specialness, that Voldemort singled him out for attack, doesn't help us decide. But all three views are firmly embedded in canon. Can we put them together? Wizard justice and prejudice. We have generally agreed that the pensieve shows a very defective process. Why is the wizarding world so bad at it? Why, given what she writes, is Rita Skeeter an apparently successful journalist? Good and Evil. Ebony asked a couple of months ago what the conception of good and evil is in HP. We all waxed eloquent about the nature of evil, and mostly ducked the question of what is good, IIRC. It is sometimes stated that good and evil only exist in relation to each other: I couldn't disagree more. The analogy I use is this: imagine good as a building being put up, and evil as knocking it down. Then we could say a lot about the nature of evil - is it like a demolition crew, or dry rot, or neglect etc. But this would tell us nothing about the nature of the building itself - I contend that there is fundamentally only one way to be evil, but a million possibilities for goodness. What are they in Harry Potter? I hesitate to add this one, but what is the nature of the sorting process at Hogwarts? We have had endless discussions about why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw, and whether Slytherins have to be evil, but I don't feel the interplay between characteristics (I am brave), aspirations (I want to be brave), priorities (I think bravery is the most important thing), morality (bravery is good) and choice (I want to be with the brave) has really been explored. How does the pesky thing work? Does the range of four possibilities say anything about the nature of humanity as a whole? How could we miss this one out? Dumbledore's gleam. I will stick my neck out and say that I *don't* think that having Harry's blood in him will weaken Voldemort (yes, he is mortal, but the flesh blood bone spell does that anyway). Being indebted to Harry might be part of it. But I agree it's not obviously a discussion point that calls up the big themes. I recommend message #27 for an alternative view which I also don't hold. Finally, to keep the nitpickers happy, who sent the Valentine to Harry? I warn you, I have a loaded draft e-mail and I'm not afraid to use it. This has been discussed, but not got to the bottom of, IMO. (And here I *have* searched the entire archive on the word Valentine.) Finally finally, I have some observations on the cutural differences between Brits and Americans that I will try to get to OT Chatter later today. David, an unreconstructed carnivore - but you knew that anyway __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 12:34:05 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:34:05 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Was re Harry Potter Comercials In-Reply-To: <9k9qf0+3adp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbhbt+1epk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23443 > > The merchandising is in accompaniment to the movie that comes out > this fall -- and so far there's only one of those, though I have no > doubt it will do well enough to warrant sequels. > > Indigo I am not entirely sure where I read/heard this but I saw somewhere that the HP movies are coming out 1 every year starting in 2001 and ending in 2007 - one for each of the 7 books... JKR sure has a load ahead of her... From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 2 12:36:32 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:36:32 -0000 Subject: Favourite subjects reflected in your house? Message-ID: <9kbhgg+dbhj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23444 Am I the only person who thinks Lily was a Ravenclaw (though I made her a Gryffindor in my fic)? Or has JKR contradicted this already? It's just that Lily's wand was 'good for Charm work' and Professor Flitwick (teacher of charms) is head of Ravenclaw. Is Charms possibly a subject Ravenclaws excel at? Would that mean that Gryffindors should be good at Transfiguration (would fit with the whole MWPP animagus thing)? Slytherins good at Potions and Hufflepuff at Herbology? Anyone have any theories? Sofie Gryffindor and would love to be an animagus! From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 12:44:28 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:44:28 -0000 Subject: Favourite subjects reflected in your house? In-Reply-To: <9kbhgg+dbhj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbhvc+ssmo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23445 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie Campbell" wrote: > > Am I the only person who thinks Lily was a Ravenclaw (though I made > her a Gryffindor in my fic)? Yes - this would make sense, only because James and Lily were both head bog/girl, right? Don't they have to be in different houses?? If James was in Gryffindor, then it would only make sense for Lily to be in something different, hence Ravenclaw... Don't mind my senseless ramblings... Meg Rose From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 12:58:51 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:58:51 -0000 Subject: Favourite subjects reflected in your house? In-Reply-To: <9kbhvc+ssmo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbiqb+qbc5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23446 "Meg Rose" wrote: > "Sofie Campbell" wrote: > > > > Am I the only person who thinks Lily was a Ravenclaw (though I > > made her a Gryffindor in my fic)? > > Yes - this would make sense, only because James and Lily were both > head bog/girl, right? Don't they have to be in different houses?? > If James was in Gryffindor, then it would only make sense for Lily > to be in something different, hence Ravenclaw... Unfortunately, the answer is no. Both were in Gryffindor. Courtesy: Harry Potter Lexicon. Source: JKR Interview, Scholastic.com, October 16, 2000 Q: Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? JKR: Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). Q: What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Was it seeker like Harry, or something different? JKR: James was Chaser. http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm ....Craig From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 2 13:17:05 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:17:05 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (was A Mistake and a Question) In-Reply-To: <9k90c5+7hgo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbjsh+pbqt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23447 My first point is why does everyone seem to presume that Hermione would have to be much more mature than her classmates for her to have been born on September 19 1979? I speak as a sixth form student (Sixth year at my school, though going into seventh year in September). My birthday is in March, so when I started school I was four and a half. This was fairly normal, however in my class there were also children who were turning five and others who had just turned four. Again this in the British school system is normal. I'm questioning the maturity thing because my two of my friends were born very far apart. Laura was born on the 27th of October 1983 and Zoe was born on the 22nd of August 1984. Now according to what a lot of you have previously stated, Laura should be much more mature than Zoe. I beg to differ, I would say that in maturity stakes thay were equal. I don't know how old any of you are but surely it isn't too long since any of you were at school. Were your friends born in September more mature than those born in the August of the following year? I think not. Life experience matures you, what you has happened to you is what makes you grow up. If you've had a particulary hard life than you probably mature quicker, the same if you have older siblings. Now take the characters of Harry, Ron and hermione into account. Harry has suffered emotional abuse since he was a baby. Raised by people who would rather not have had him, Harry has had a fairly hard life. Now let's look at Ron, he has five older brothers. To fit into this family he would have had to act old for his age. We heard the twins teasing him in the first book about his mother trying to get something off his nose. He obviously resented this and so will have made an effort to act older to regain the respect of his brothers. Finally we come to Hermione, both her parents are Dentists possibly orthodontists. In Britain Dentists are well paid so Hermione has probably come from a middle class background and will have been quite sheltered. This may have brought her down on the maturity stakes. My last point is look at Parvati and Lavender, now compared to them see how mature Hermione really is? Even Ginny, an academic year younger could give those two girls a run for their money in the maturity stakes. But then not only does she have older siblings she has had a quite life changing experience in that she almost died in her first year. Well that's my point finished. I hope I've made myself clear. Once you get past say five, birthdate has nothing to do with how mature you are. Finally I'd like to say that if you have older friends then you are more likely to act older than your age. Speaking as someone who could quite comfortably converse with adults and be treated as an equal aged age ten upwards, I would say that I was quite mature for my age which is why I am perfectly comfortable belonging to this group. Sofie, 17 and a proud Gryffindor. From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 2 13:31:06 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:31:06 -0000 Subject: two things that are annoying me In-Reply-To: <9kakvf+p1eg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbkmq+j5gq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23448 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lizzie" wrote: > I just noticed something - in GoF chapter 22 (p344 in my ed), > Eloise's last name is spelt Midgeon. Then, on p348 it's spelt >Midgen. I think it's Midgeon on both pages in my British Hardback but I will have to check. > Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the > Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? It wouldn't have been as nearly as exciting if he had just summoned it. Or was I the only one who chew my finger nails right back to the quick as I anxiously read that section, worrying that Harry was soon to be no more? Sofie p.s ( What does the C stand for in Elizabeth C?) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 13:35:23 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:35:23 -0000 Subject: A kind list - Accio Egg - V's rise - Lupin FAQ Message-ID: <9kbkur+ko3t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23449 Luke, thank you for your words, and Ebony, thank you for posting bravely and honestly. I've reached the point where I can't keep up with all posts either, and am in the same boat as brand-newbies who tire of hearing "check the archives." It is not possible to know everything that's been said on this list in the past few months; I don't even find it possible to know everything that's been said the past few days. Let us remember that and be gentle with each other. In this particular case, referring Ebony back to the post that started the thread (23257) didn't answer the question (nor was it meant to, from the way I read msg. 23391). Jonathan quoted the PoA passage because he thought it was a Flint; Ebony quoted it because she thought it was evidence that Hermione was born in 1980. Either one of them could be right, since we don't have Hermione's birth certificate in front of us. I hope neither Ebony nor Jonathan feels foolish, since both brought up valid points. Elizabeth wrote: >Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? Wow. I've read GoF 5 times and it never occurred to me, nor has it shown up as a question on this list in the 7 months I've been here, so I suppose it's realistic that it wouldn't occur to any of the champions either. Or, assuming they're all thinking more clearly than we are (?): Since none of the champions did this, maybe there's a reason very obvious to them, e.g. dragons are known to shield their eggs from Accio. Why they don't shield them from being manually carried away, I dunno. It would have been a good thing for Harry or Hermione to raise as a possibility and reject. Maybe JKR didn't think of it either. Parker wrote: > From the clues in the book, his rise to power > began in the 70s. and Rita wrote: > Apparently 1969. If it had been in USA, I would urge that JKR's bad > arithmetic had popped in again & it was really 1968. Why 1969 or 1968? Maybe the explanation was in the rest of your post--I'm a bit math-challenged (I consider that I'm in good company--waves at Jo) so maybe I missed it. I wonder what event everyone dates his rise to power to? At what point was he regarded as a serious menace? It's not like he was elected and you can date the reign of terror to Inauguration Day, 19__ (fill in the year your least favorite administration took over). BTW, the Lupin FAQ is coming, Remus fans...I only got on board this here train about a week ago and it's going to take me a little while to finish it. Watch Announcements for its arrival. Amy Z feeling heavy pressure since Pippin's FAQfilk --------------------------------------------------- When posting to the list, consider: is what I am about to say true? is it necessary? is it kind? --words of wisdom from somebody --------------------------------------------------- From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 2 13:40:21 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:40:21 -0000 Subject: Favourite subjects reflected in your house? In-Reply-To: <9kbiqb+qbc5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbl85+9oh9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23450 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie Campbell" wrote: > Am I the only person who thinks Lily was a Ravenclaw (though I > >made her a Gryffindor in my fic)? rcraigharman at h... wrote: > Unfortunately, the answer is no. Both were in Gryffindor. > > Courtesy: Harry Potter Lexicon. > Source: JKR Interview, Scholastic.com, October 16, 2000 > > Q: Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? > JKR: Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor > (naturally). > > http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm > > ....Craig Thank you for clarifying that for me. I suspected that she might have been in Gryffindor as JKR does seem slightly favourist to this house. I still think she would have made a better Ravenclaw though. I'm considering starting a petition for an important character to be in a house besides Gryffindor (who isn't evil and who doesn't die). Does anyone else feel like that? Sofie From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 2 13:56:06 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:56:06 -0000 Subject: Analysis and HP4GU (was Re: On Respect and Kindness) In-Reply-To: <9kbc9j+gq20@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbm5m+9ibt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23451 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" wrote: > Perhaps I can compare canon to a chicken leg (apologies to all > vegetarians--think of it as tofu!) to explain what I'm thinking > of. ;-)> Hi Ebony - Once again, I agree with you. You actually brought up a point that I had wanted to discuss for a while but couldn't find the right way to word it, so I held back. What a relief to know I was not alone. I snipped your chicken comment because it was a wonderful metaphor, even though I am a vegetarian. It was also very accurate. Perhaps I'll look at what's been going on as all the Ben and Jerry's flavors have been tried and now we're just going back to the ones we like. :-) I just had to say that. One thing I think is important to say here is that we may all be nitpickers, and we may think to ourselves "Ach! Not *that* thread again!" or "Oooh, I do not like his attitude when he posts!". I know I do that all the time. However, I do not have to respond to that thread or to that person. The beauty of this list (well, one of the beauties) is that we can skip a thread we don't like or skip over a person whose postings annoy us. Is it really necessary to prove to everyone how right we are all the time? It is okay to think what you want. Everyone would hate me if I posted all the obnoxious things I think or say to my boyfriend about postings I do not like. Ebony, I am sure you have made mistakes in front of your students. I do all the time. Who cares? They correct me and we move on. That's how it could be here. I recently made a whopper of a grammatical error and John delightedly tore me to shreds about it - OFF LIST. I felt stupid (because I am extremely grammatically oriented and grammatical errors make me want to tear my hair out), laughed, and that was that. It is when people continue to pick postings apart on the main list that people recede into lurkdom. I have been attacked on list before and it doesn't feel good. My main point amidst all this babbling is to SKIP what you don't want to read. Remember what Dumbledore said about our choices? We do not have to read every post and we do not have to correct every person. So there. --jenny from ravenclaw*********************** From phillip at softhome.net Thu Aug 2 13:57:51 2001 From: phillip at softhome.net (Lord Eadric) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:57:51 -0400 Subject: More Questions to JKR In-Reply-To: <996728194.1359.74514.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23452 > -- Could the Wizarding world be on a different calendar than Muggles? > (Could help reconcile some of the timeline problems.) Several months ago, someone sent this message to a genealogy mailing list. According to the Lexicon, the world of wizards was completely separated from the muggle world with the Statute of Wizarding Secrecy of 1692. Just keep this in mind when reading the following. The calendar was changed in 1752. In that year Britain swapped over from the Julian calendar - introduced in the time of Julius Caesar and which we had had for many centuries - to the Gregorian calendar, introduced into most of Europe in 1582 by Pope Gregory XIII. Until then, the New Year had always started in Britain on Lady Day, March 25th, as you say. At the time of the changeover Britain, because of the inaccurate calendar, had fallen 11 days behind the rest of Europe, so in 1752 11 days were removed altogether in order to bring the country into line., In that year, September 2nd was followed by September 14th. It is said there were riots in the streets of London and other cities because the ordinary people believed the government was stealing 11 days from their lives! This event is very important to us as family historians, since it is easy to get the year wrong when writing dates between January 1 and March 24 before 1752. I came up against this a while ago when I found the marriages of two sets of my 5-times gt-grandparents in Kirkby Malham in the Yorkshire Dales. One couple were married on December 25 1747 and the other couple on March 13 1747. However, when looking at the film of the parish registers I realized from the order in which the marriages had been entered that the second marriage on March 13, was AFTER the December one, thus the date has to be written thus: March 13 1747/8. This is the style you should adopt when entering any event between January 1 and March 24 inclusive, prior to 1752. Before 1752 dates are called Old Style and after 1752 New Style. Do remember this, you newcomers to genealogy, when researching in pre-1752 documents such as registers and Bishops' Transcripts, etc., and to take account of it. A date of, say, February 21st 1644 in England and Wales (but not Scotland, see below), is actually February 21st 1645 in modern terms. This can be very significant if you start looking at how soon after a marriage a first child is born!!! You will find that some family tree programs enter pre-1752 dates in Old Style automatically. There is a curious survival to this day of this quirk in our calendar system, which is the fact that we start the financial year on April 5th. This is because the merchants, bankers and money lenders of the City of London always refused to accept the new calendar because they thought it meant they were losing three months' interest on their money They insisted that as far as they were concerned the year still began on Lady Day, March 25th, and what was more they were having their 11 days back as well. So they added the 11 days to March 25th and arrived at April 5th as the start of the financial year. Not a lot of people know this! Of course, you also see traces of the old calendar in the Latin names of the months of September (the 7th month), October (the eighth), November (the ninth) and December (the tenth). Those of you with Quaker ancestors will know that they didn't name the months but always called them "the First Month" and so on. Therefore, prior to 1752 "the First Month" in Quaker records means March and after 1752 it became "the Third Month". Another thing you have to watch out for is that if you are tracing Scottish ancestry Scotland actually changed to having January as the start of the year on January 1st 1600. Therefore, a date of February 21st 1644 in Scottish records means exactly as it would today. However, the change to the Gregorian calendar did not take place in Scotland until 1752, at the same time as England and Wales changed. So, it's possible (but not too likely) that the wizarding world has a different calendar than the muggle world. Hope this helps! Phillip Riley a.k.a. Lord Eadric Webmaster, Oriental Adventures Project http://come.to/kara-tur Webmaster, The Wandering Bard's tavern http://come.to/eadric "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." -Euripides "When in doubt, listen to the man with the bloodier weapon." - Unknown "Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup." - Unknown From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 2 14:24:35 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:24:35 -0000 Subject: Chicken Meat (was Analysis and HP4GU, and On Respect and Kindness) In-Reply-To: <76496B15.2E9ADFDB.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kbnr4+9nha@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23453 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: These are fantastic questions, David. My mind is working furiously to respond. > Wizard justice and prejudice. We have generally agreed that the pensieve shows a very defective process. Why is the wizarding world so bad at it? Why, given what she writes, is Rita Skeeter an apparently successful journalist?> Ah, prejudice. Just like in the real world. Tabloid magazines sell like there's no tomorrow here in the States, and people often believe everything they read. I think JKR is reflecting that in HP. Rita Skeeter has a knack for choosing topics people want to read about. I think the justice system (here in the States) is also very flawed. Just look at the number of minorities (African American and Latino) in jail vs the number in the country and there you go. The pensieve scene seems, in some ways, to be a comparison to the way justice systems really do deem people guilty before proven innocent. > I contend that there is fundamentally only one way to be evil, but a million possibilities for goodness. What are they in Harry Potter?> I love what you wrote about the building. Goodness? To me, Dumbledore is Good. He is open minded, has a sense of humor, especially about himself, gives people second chances, and treats those around him equally. How anyone could suspect him of being bad is beyond me. Wow. I have just written and deleted three different ideas about Goodness. This is a tough one. I think I'll let others respond because my thinking on this is not organized. I will get back to this, though, because I have thought about this quite a lot, especially Harry's specialness and goodness. I'm just not ready right now to discuss it. --jenny from ravenclaw**************************** From JamiDeise at aol.com Thu Aug 2 14:47:34 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:47:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] A kind list - Accio Egg - V's rise - Lupin FAQ Message-ID: <11f.297b454.289ac206@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23454 In a message dated 8/2/2001 9:36:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aiz24 at hotmail.com writes: << >Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? Wow. I've read GoF 5 times and it never occurred to me, nor has it shown up as a question on this list in the 7 months I've been here, so I suppose it's realistic that it wouldn't occur to any of the champions either. Or, assuming they're all thinking more clearly than we are (?): Since none of the champions did this, maybe there's a reason very obvious to them, e.g. dragons are known to shield their eggs from Accio. Why they don't shield them from being manually carried away, I dunno. >> I think it's because the point of the task is to face the dragon and get the egg. Using Accio to get the egg ignores the first part of the task. Jami stickler for rules From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Aug 2 15:02:00 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:02:00 -0000 Subject: Weasel Legend - Colours (was: At Flourish & Blotts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9kbq18+3bvm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23455 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth C" wrote: > I read on a message board about name symbolism that "Ron Weasley" may have > been derived from the legend of the Running Weasel, who was very good at > chess, and killed by a yellow rat. That fits really well with Ron's surname, > his chess skills and the possibility that he may be killed by Wormtail - > remember when he tried to turn 'Scabbers' yellow on train in PS/SS? > There's just one small thing - a search of the web has failed to come up > with any type of 'Running Weasel' legend. Anyone else heard of it? > I've never heard of the "Running Weasel" legend until I read it on a Harry Potter website. If you do a search of "Running Weasel", most of them go to Potter sites quoting "in another language" or "according to an old legend", however, a cultural source is never cited. There's also a reference to Running Weasel being a 6th century warlord (again, no cultural reference included). I have found a "Running Weasel" on some other sites. However, this Running Weasel belonged to a Native American tribe and lived in the 19th century. Until I can find more legitimate references to support the existence of a Running Weasel legend, I remain very skeptical. Milz From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Aug 2 15:22:42 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 10:22:42 -0500 Subject: Kindness (was Chicken Meat) -- FAQs Message-ID: <3B697042.63A1025A@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23456 Hi everyone -- Luke wrote a really nice post about analyzing in this discussion group & respect for opinions of others, and they're have been some great responses so far to an overall issue that Ebony raised. I want to explore this all more in-depth, but I'm savvy enough to know that I don't have the time at this exact moment to give this issue the kind of attention it deserves. So, I'm going to refrain from commenting extensively at the moment. But, as List Owner, I feel compelled to at least publicly say that I'm giving it *alot* of thought & *will* share my own thoughts sometime soon. I just don't want to rush & not really have a firm grasp on what I want to say. I'm trying to care for a 3 month old & move back into my now-repaired-from-the-flood house so ...time is short at the moment. I will say though that one overall thing that can't be stressed often enough is: Please respect the feelings of other members when you compose your own posts. We are probably all guilty of dashing off a post and not really taking the time to read it & consider how some other member might perceive what you've written. I know I've been guilty of that on more than one occasion. Also, as Jenny said: it's important to remember that no one is compelled to read & comment on all the posts. If I had to choose one rule for this group (well, okay, *2* rules since the above "golden rule" of respecting others is vitally important also): I'd choose to say "Mind your subject headings." If everyone made absolutely sure that his or her post had the correct subject heading, it would make it very easy for people to skip things that don't interest them. :--) FAQs -- The FAQ group is very very interested in feedback! The FAQs are of course fluid -- they will change to reflect new theories, things JKR answers in chats, etc. So, by all means, share your thoughts with us (I happen to know that the LOON patrol is parsing through them line by line right now -- ). RE: the Romance Pairings FAQ -- > Although as a R/H-er I do have to say that in the Romance section that the two main bits are hopelessly imbalanced (too much > pro H/H and too little con, and the reverse with R/H) and all the pro > H/H points were silly anyway :). > That FAQ was actually reviewed by people on the FAQ committee who have no ship preference because I was keen to avoid charges of bias. I also solicited people to submit any thoughts on all the pairings last fall when I was first writing it up. That offer still stands: the R/H section does reflect *all* the arguments that have been made in favor of that pairing. I promise you that all the pro & con arguments are included for all the pairings -- everything that has been discussed in this group is included (and if it's not, the omission was *not* intentional). So ... if there are pro R/H arguments that you feel are missing, by all means, please bring them up & we'll get that FAQ revised. The intent with all the FAQs is to reflect what's been discussed & to give people fodder for further discussions. And, perhaps most importantly, we wanted there to be a way for members to see what's been said so far on a subject without needing to try & consult the mammoth message archives to find what they were looking for. We FAQ authors all have our own opinions & biases, but we did search through *all* the messages to compose the FAQs. Our intent was not for the Hogwarts FAQ, for example, to reflect my own view about the student numbers debate but rather to reflect what every side of that issue has argued so far. If we've failed in this regard though -- be sure to raise it! We do want to hear how to make the FAQs one of the premier HP resources on the web. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 15:36:37 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:36:37 -0000 Subject: Kindness (was Chicken Meat) -- FAQs In-Reply-To: <3B697042.63A1025A@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9kbs25+jrmr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23457 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > FAQs -- The FAQ group is very very interested in feedback! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] How do we do that? Marcus From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 15:51:24 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:51:24 -0000 Subject: FAQ Feedback (was Re: Kindness -- FAQs) In-Reply-To: <9kbs25+jrmr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbsts+gcg9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23458 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer > wrote: > > FAQs -- The FAQ group is very very interested in feedback! [Non-text > portions of this message have been removed] > > How do we do that? > > Marcus Indeed. I read through all the FAQs after they were posted and, after recovering from being completely blown away by how ambitious and well crafted this project was (major kudos to everyone), I wondered how to send feedback. I noticed that each FAQ mentioned an editor, but there was generally no link to that editor's e-mail address. I think that would be a good idea, since some of the feedback probably doesn't need to go on the main list. Excellent, excellent, job. I also think maybe we should make these known to non-HP4GU members when they're done. Steve could link to them from the Lexicon somewhere. That way people with just a passing interest in the discussions, but no real desire to discuss things themselves could read through them. Maybe that's already the plan; I don't know since I've only just found out about this project so late in its formulation. -Luke From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Aug 2 16:11:07 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:11:07 -0400 Subject: FAQ feedback, SHIP: R/H, D/H, Hollywood bickering, and a little bit of H/H Message-ID: <4CCB22ED.4998AA0A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23459 The Romantic Pairings FAQ says regarding Ron and Hermione: 'The two of them start out by irritating each other to the point of exasperation. They get on each other's nerves. They may even hate each other at times. Which means that they are Doomed, according to Hollywood and classic romantic tradition, to Fall In Love.' and, regarding Draco and Hermione: 'If the bickering between Ron and Hermione through the books is an indication of a "Spencer Tracy & Katherine Hepburn" style attraction of opposites, the slaps and curses Hermione has thrown at Draco Malfoy should be considered evidence that a relationship between Draco and Hermione follows the same rules of attraction.' in both cases reflecting what may be a minority view of listies. I don't wish to comment directly on the authority of Hollywood in romance (though the bickering couple falling in love goes back a lot further - think of Elizabeth Bennett and Mr Darcy for example): may I just comment on how I see this sort of thing working in HP. I would regard bickering and argument as symptomatic of underlying issues in a relationship. In order to find out what those issues are, you need to look in more depth. So, between Ron and Hermione, I would say there is a sort of tug-of-war. Each wants the other to take their own view more seriously, for example Hermione on studying, Ron on lightening up ('Are you ever going to read Hogwarts, a History?' 'Why should we when all we have to do is ask you?'). They are trying to extract a concession that the other thinks their view is important to themselves. I would therefore see the bickering as being quite consistent with a future H/R pairing, but I would then expect it to die away as they become more secure in their mutual understanding. Which might make for boring reading for us, of course. Hermione and Draco are poles apart. Draco apparently has fundamental views which mean that Hermione must think he has no respect for her whatever. It is almost impossible as things stand now to conceive of Hermione as being attracted to Draco. Her reactions to him - slapping, etc. reflect this. However, when we consider what Draco must think of Hermione, the picture is rather more interesting. She, who is inferior to him in the respects he considers important, continually beats him; his response is to try harder, yet he still fails. By GOF, her psychological mastery is nearly complete as she can reduce him by saying 'Hello, Professor Moody', and affects not to care about Rita Skeeter's article (but see below). He also discovers at the ball that she can look stunning. I think it is entirely possible that Draco's desire to win may well take the form of attempted conquest of her affections, though as his character stands, that would be based on lust and the desire for mastery. If he then fails (as surely he must), he will resort either to violence and hatred or to a comprehensive re-evaluation of his own character and possible repentance. (This would be a little bit Darcy-like, BTW.) Has any fanfic explored this view of Draco? (I have read hardly any, though I don't take the principled 'other people's toothbrush' view of it) Taking all three cases together (R/H, D->H, and H->D) I'd say that 'bickering' points in three quite different directions, and can only be understood in the wider context. Finally, on Hermione's reaction to Rita Skeeter, I noticed the other day that her anger at Rita hardens noticeably, becoming almost obsessive, after the bubotuber pus incident arising from the 'Hermione trifled with Harry' article. Is this a bit of evidence for H/H? My idea is that, although Hermione's immediate reaction is that it's clearly untrue, and therefore not hurtful, but as the consequences play out (including Krum's jealousy) she starts to feel an issue has been raised she did not want to think about, and takes it out on Skeeter. To set against that RS's contributions are so appalling and potentially destructive that Hermione's anger can be justified purely on that basis. She may also feel that her freedom in developing her relationship with Krum to a place where she feels happy (not necessarily romance) has been reduced. David Is this what you meant, Penny? __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From lamppost42 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 16:22:22 2001 From: lamppost42 at hotmail.com (lamppost42 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:22:22 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) In-Reply-To: <9kan97+c7k4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kbunu+dtap@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23460 > Was he a member? I always got the impression he was there as an > observer / advisor / witness. That's I read it, too. We already know that the committee allowed the Dementors against Dumbledore's protestations, so it wouldn't be the first time he disagreed with them. > Yet Pomfrey is a highly respected member of Dumbledore's handpicked >staff. So why is she regarded as so much less trustworthy than some of >the others? I can just hear Mrs. Weasley and Madame Pomfrey tsking the dangerous tasks in unison. So far, their characters have been portrayed very similarly in how they react to finding the students in danger. However, I feel that including Mrs. Weasley in the conversation indicates that there is quite a bit more to her than the overprotective disciplinarian we've seen so far. > (Must be chilly without undergarments either.) And flying up in the air without undergarments with all those Death Eaters circling below? How can you possibly live in fear of someone whose skinny bottom you've seen? :D Mun42 From mediaphen at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 16:26:22 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:26:22 -0000 Subject: FILK: Quidditch Cup Match Message-ID: <9kbuve+gagq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23461 Hi everybody! I thought I'd try to write a filk (BTW, what does that mean?), and thought I'd write something on the obvious lines of Firebolt, Firebolt, Firebolt I want to ride my Firebolt, I want to ride my broom... but then I realised the rest of the text was easier appliable to our favourite Captain Emeritus, Ollie Wood. Dedicated to CMC, elena, John W, Indigo, Chris, Lisa I, Pippin and every other filk writer (you make my working day shine!) ___________________________________________________________________ QUIDDITCH CUP MATCH (To the tune of Queen's "Bicycle Race") :::The scene: The Quidditch changing room, Wood addressing those who doesn't (in his opinion) share his devotion to the game, prioring Muggle sports, studies and fights against Evil Overlords::: Gryffindor Quidditch Team: Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup Oliver Wood: I want to win the GQT+OW: Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup OW: I want to win the Quidditch Cup, I want to win this year I want to win the Quidditch Cup, I always have been oh so near OW: You say ball, I say snitch, you say field, I say pitch You say class, I say hey man, Charms was never my scene and I don't like DADA You say O.W.L:s, I say Cup, you say N.E.W.T:S, don't you give up You say MoM, I say Krum, I do not care if Dumbledore kicks the arse of Voldemort All I wanna win is GQT+OW: Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup OW: I want to win the GQT+OW: Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup OW: I want to win the Quidditch Cup, I want to win so bad I want to win the Quidditch Cup, we're gonna win... OW: The Quidditch Cup Final is scheduled today, so forget all your lessons and play Slytherin chasers will be coming our way and look out for those bludgers astray Madame Hooch: On your brooms, get set, go! GQT: Quidditch Cup Match, Quidditch Cup Match, Quidditch Cup Match, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup OW: I want to win the GQT+OW: Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup Match OW: Chasers, hear! Katie, oy! A and A! Porskoff Ploy! School schmool! I say Puddle U rather than becoming head boy out of Hogwarts Wronski Feint, Harry P! Golden snitch, do you see? Leave it be, I say wait till Gryffindor is sixty up, otherwise we'll lose the cup Cos all I wanna win is GQT+OW: Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup OW: I want to win the GQT+OW: Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup, Quidditch Cup OW: I want to win the Quidditch Cup, I will win the Q-cup I want to win the Quidditch Cup, you'd better fight till you puke up _____________________________________________________________________ I will, eventually, write a U2-based filk... Martin, eagerly awaiting the Broadway version of the books From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Aug 2 16:52:41 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 11:52:41 -0500 Subject: FAQs Feedback Message-ID: <3B698559.3AA4B6CB@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23462 Hi -- In general, I guess we'd want FAQs feedback to be made on the list since, after all, the intent is to promote expanded discussions. But, if you just have a nitpicky typo or two that you want to point out, just email the Moderators at: HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com We'll probably change this to some sort of email address for the FAQs group, but the above will work for now. Glad to hear that people are reading & enjoying them! Penny From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:11:39 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:11:39 -0400 Subject: Characters in other houses... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23463 >From: "Sofie Campbell" >I'm considering starting a petition for an important character to be >in a house besides Gryffindor (who isn't evil and who doesn't die). >Does anyone else feel like that? >Sofie *grin* I think lots of people feel the exact same way Sofie. If you read fanfic, many people tackle this; it's quite an interesting topic since we *don't* have the best idea of the other houses. However since Harry is a Gryffindor, it makes sense that most of the characters we see are Gryffindors. Gryffindors are his "family", most of his time is spent with them. But it's still a little...hm...one-sided? to see so much emphasis placed on them. Especially if you're someone who identifies with the dominant characteristics of a different house. Perhaps JKR will gravitate away from this trend in the next three books? I've always wondered if things would've been different if there had been no separate common rooms for the individual houses. Instead of the Gryffindor common room or Hufflepuff common room, there be a Hogwarts common room. Maybe characters in other houses would have gotten more "on-screen" time and more inter-house friendships. ~Amber ******** Death is not simple, it never is. But without love, the world becomes a hell; a twisting cavern of self-doubt and self-destruction. At that point, death is very easy compared to the exquisite torture of being unloved. And easy is a close cousin to simple. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From deeblite at home.com Thu Aug 2 17:58:21 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:58:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9ka8c2+10s7m@eGroups.com> References: <9ka42i+e1ki@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010802135747.02b59990@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23464 At 12:54 AM 8/2/01 +0000, you wrote: > > Circle. It would also explain why Voldemort didn't behave as if >Snape > > was one of his servants when he was inhabiting Quirrel. > > Feel free to pick holes in this, as usual > > > > Pippin > >Occam's Razor > >JKR is seldom that convoluted. JKR has never started to write the concluding chapters of a series before, either. -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 2 18:03:16 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:03:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: two things that are annoying me References: <9kbkmq+j5gq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6995E4.B5F75AAD@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23465 Sofie Campbell wrote: > > Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the > > Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? > > It wouldn't have been as nearly as exciting if he had just summoned > it. Or was I the only one who chew my finger nails right back to the > quick as I anxiously read that section, worrying that Harry was soon > to be no more? Overlooking the (doubtless correct) argument that summoning the egg would be boring and anticlimactic, I had a thought. When you summon something, does it zing around after you like a bullet in a cartoon, or do you have to stay at the place you cast the spell from? Because if Harry had to stay still, and Mama Dragon saw her egg zooming toward this easy target, he'd have been toast before it got there. *She* can fly, too.... --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 2 18:21:30 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:21:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) References: <9kbunu+dtap@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B699A29.3A11E6EC@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23466 lamppost42 at hotmail.com wrote: > > Yet Pomfrey is a highly respected member of Dumbledore's handpicked > >staff. So why is she regarded as so much less trustworthy than some > of >the others? > > I can just hear Mrs. Weasley and Madame Pomfrey tsking the dangerous > tasks in unison. So far, their characters have been portrayed very > similarly in how they react to finding the students in danger. > However, I feel that including Mrs. Weasley in the conversation > indicates that there is quite a bit more to her than the > overprotective disciplinarian > we've seen so far. Upon reflection, I think that Dumbledore simply knows his people very well. Madam Pomfrey strikes me as a very trustworthy person, but one who has her own priorities (the health and well-being of her charges) above all else. Even if you told her that there might be a very good reason for doing something she disapproves of, she'll still disapprove. If Dumbledore knows he can't convince her of something, and knows he's going to do it anyway, why let her hear about it? Alternately, in a world with things like Veritaserum and other secret-inducing niceties up its sleeve, perhaps Dumbledore is operating on a need-to-know basis for her own protection? Rambling, still sick, REAL tired of it, Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Thu Aug 2 18:33:43 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 18:33:43 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (Parting of the Ways) In-Reply-To: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kc6e7+nr1t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23467 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mcandrew at b... wrote: > 2) Chap 36, Parting of the Ways. (p. 617-8 UK) At Harry's hospital > bedside after the third task, Sirius and Snape are introduced to each > other by Dumbledore - but not until Madam Pomfrey has left the room > and is out of hearing. Obviously he doesn't trust her as he does > Snape or Molly Weasley, who is still present. Yet Pomfrey is a > highly respected member of Dumbledore's handpicked staff. So why is > she regarded as so much less trustworthy than some of the others? More confusing is why does Dumbledore get rid of McGonagall? Pomfrey I can understand: "Madame Pomfrey was standing frozen at the foot of Harry's bed, her hands over her mouth. Mrs Weasley was still standing over Harry, her hand on his shoulder to prevent him rising." I don't think it's a matter of trust, I think he wanted as few people as possible to know about Sirius, because of panic and because of safety. It could be that Molly Weasley is stronger than we might expect as somebody else proposed, or it could be that Dumbledore knew that she wasn't leaving Harry that night, as evidenced by her reaction to Voldemort's rebirth in the quote above. Her priority is Harry. So he could only get rid of Bill and Pomfrey. Why does he get rid of the McG? Any theories about this? -Hella From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 18:55:21 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 18:55:21 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat considerations (was Chicken Meat) In-Reply-To: <76496B15.2E9ADFDB.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kc7mp+dufe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23468 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > Second, I want to try to move on by suggesting deeper topics that I > don't believe have been recently discussed, and I'm not sure were > fully discussed earlier. These are some nice questions and I'd like to respond to pretty much all of them in depth. This will probably take me a while so I'm just starting with one for a moment, while I collect my thoughts on some of the others. I'm also giving each one I respond to its own seperate subject heading so people can get involved only on the questions that "speak to them". > I hesitate to add this one, but what is the nature of the sorting > process at Hogwarts? We have had endless discussions about why > Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw, and whether Slytherins have to be evil, > but I don't feel the interplay between characteristics (I am brave), > aspirations (I want to be brave), priorities (I think bravery is the > most important thing), morality (bravery is good) and choice (I want > to be with the brave) has really been explored. How does the pesky > thing work? Does the range of four possibilities say anything about > the nature of humanity as a whole? What an excellent way to look at it! I really like your distinctions a lot. I'm going to start off with some general statements that do involve canon (references, not quotes), but are not meant to be proof. I don't think we have proof of this, really. So there's no point in me supplying all kinds of evidence. We know the Sorting Hat apparently takes into account choice, from Harry's desire to not be in Slytherin. Although one might argue that the choice simply reflected something in Harry's nature and it was not the choice itself. It also might take into account priorities, since we do know Hermione says at the end of PS/SS that she thinks bravery and friendship are more important than books and cleverness. This could be a partial explanation for why Hermione is in Gryffindor. I don't think it explains everything though and it certainly sells Hermione short. She is quite brave in many ways, she doesn't only VALUE bravery. And most people would say the Hat MUST take into account characteristics to some extent, which is likely true. Aspirations could be a factor as well. Such as in Neville's case, though this, too, I think sells him short since he does possess his own special kind of bravery. So we're back to characteristics again in some capacity or another. But (and here's where I get into the real part of my discussion) I do not think existing characteristics are the biggest factor. I believe (with no evidence from canon) that the Sorting Hat makes it decisions based largely on another option: potential for growth (I would benefit from being with the brave). Clearly several characters have been made better for the House they ended up in. Neville is more assertive, Hermione has been more willing to expend rules for the sake of ethics. Harry too has developed from being in Gryffindor, not only in a different way than had he been in Slytherin, but also had he been in Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw. He needed like-minded people and, above all, acceptance. I'm not sure he would have found this elsewhere, athough it would have brought out and developed other traits in him that he currently lacks. This is a school, after all, and the primary goal is not to divide people, but to shape them. In theory, the reason for the different houses should be to provide the students with the most nurturing environment that will allow them to grow and expand. Now, normally I might say, "Leave it as a single, cohesive school body and they will do this on their own, and perhaps grow even further than they could divided." After all, then they'd have the influence of all types. But this might not work for some kids. They would all go to their comfort zones, when they're comfort zones are NOT what they need to be in. Well-tempered steel is made in a blast furnace, not roasting over a warm campfire. One might wonder then, how come characters like Draco Malfoy and the other Slytherins don't get placed in circumstances where they would have more positive influences? I agree there should be a better way (and one day, when we are infinitely wise we will find it and everyone will be perfect), but I do think there is an explanation. Draco Malfoy and others do not WANT to be helped in this way and there is nothing more foolish and time-wasting than trying to assist someone who won't let you help them. Being with other ambitious people is at least helping them reach the goals they aspire to by putting their competitive natures to a constructive purpose (school). I'm not sure putting them amidst Hufflepuffs would make them anything except resentful. But I don't think they are lost causes. Perhaps some of them, with such concentrated exposure to others like them will realize that they don't really like aspects of themselves. This wouldn't happen if they were amidst Gryffindors. I don't know; my thoughts are less coherent on this aspect. No one has to agree with me here, although I'm sure many others have said this before. I have no proof and I will likely never get any as I doubt this is important enough to be addressed in an upcoming book. But this is the way I believe it OUGHT to work, for whatever that's worth. I would also perhaps like to discuss how this applies to us outside of the books, but I've said more than enough for now. Perhaps later once more people have had their chance to add to the interpretations as they apply to the books. -Luke From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 19:07:31 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:07:31 -0000 Subject: FAQF Hagrid's Wand Message-ID: <9kc8dj+j3vm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23469 I noticed in the wand FAQ several problems concerning Hagrid's wand; namely (1) How come the umbrellas seems to work but Ron's broken wand in CoS doesn't, and (2) Why doesn't he buy a new one after CoS. (1) I have always thought that when they broke his wand, he ended up with three pieces -- the two wooden halves and the core. The core would be a lot less brittle than the wood and likely would have sustained little damaged. What if Hagrid merely put the core inside the shaft of him umbrella? He now has a functional wand. Ron, on the other hand, had a broken casing and I believe the core was damaged as well. (2) True, it doesn't say he bought a new wand, but it doesn't say he didn't either. So it really isn't safe to assume he hasn't got a new wand. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 19:12:51 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:12:51 -0000 Subject: FAQF Workings of the Marauder's Map Message-ID: <9kc8nk+d0pc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23470 How do the dots work? I have always thought that the dots only show what might be of interest to mischief makers. To wit, a teacher safely in his or her sleeping quarters is not a threat, but a student or ghost wandering the halls who might stumble upon them is. If the map showed the location of everybody in the castle all the time, it would be information overload. But if it only showed those out-and-about, it would have meaning. Marcus From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 2 19:28:16 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:28:16 -0000 Subject: FAQ feedback, SHIP: R/H, D/H In-Reply-To: <4CCB22ED.4998AA0A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kc9kg+81fp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23471 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > > However, when we consider what Draco must think of Hermione, the picture is rather more interesting. She, who is inferior to him in the respects he considers important, continually beats him; his response is to try harder, yet he still fails. By GOF, her psychological mastery is nearly complete as she can reduce him by saying 'Hello, Professor Moody', and affects not to care about Rita Skeeter's article (but see below). He also discovers at the ball that she can look stunning. I think it is entirely possible that Draco's desire to win may well take the form of attempted conquest of her affections, though as his character stands, that would be based on lust and the desire for mastery. If he then fails (as surely he must), he will resort either to violence and hatred or to a comprehensive re-evaluation of his own character and possible repentance.> First of all, David, I always enjoy your postings, but lately they have been downright brilliant. I love what you wrote about Draco's possible attraction to Hermione. What a complicated and fascinating twist that would add to the series. I see Draco as someone who desperately needs to break away from Mommy and Daddy (especially Daddy). In a way, I can relate to him. I was far too dependent on my parents for too long until an unfortunate turn of events forced me to learn how to count on myself. I was quite spoiled until my father's business went down the drain and I had to fend for myself. It was hard, it was the best thing to ever happen to me. I learned to value myself, pay for myself and see that my parents were not always right. No one can take that away from me. I used myself as an example to try and explain what I *could* see happening with Draco. He needs to see Lucius off the pedestal, up close and on the ground. He has yet to question his parents' views. An attraction to a "mudblood" like Hermione may be a way to rebel against his parents. *We* know Hermione is great; Draco may begin to see that too, and whether or not she returns his affections, Draco may have to part ways to some degree with his father who will never see Hermione for the clever witch she really is. Or, an attraction to Hermione may be the catalyst for Draco to open his eyes and question *anything* his father has been saying. Draco has been blindly, for the most part, agreeing with his father's views. Draco, too, needs to learn to stand on his own. --jenny from ravenclaw************* From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 20:09:09 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:09:09 -0400 Subject: The Color Green Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23472 >From: >I was curious enough about the significance of colors in Harry Potter >to >catalogue all the uses of green I could find. Most, if not all, of >these >are just coincidence and have no deeper meaning, but I didn't >discriminate >(who am I to decide what means something and what >doesn't). This is >hopefully a pretty complete list of everything >green in Harry Potter and >the chapter in which it first appeared. Let >me know if I missed any. >More colors may follow (particularly red), >but it takes a couple hours to >put a list like this together. Egads! What a list! *bows down to Ben* I've thought about doing something similar for awhile but had too much to do... I must say that after reading the books, I wondered if the color of magic is green. There are an awful lot of green flashes and such and Ben's list just emphasizes it. And if it *is* green, then perhaps people with green eyes have more magic than others? Hm... ~Amber ******** Death is not simple, it never is. But without love, the world becomes a hell; a twisting cavern of self-doubt and self-destruction. At that point, death is very easy compared to the exquisite torture of being unloved. And easy is a close cousin to simple. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From joym999 at aol.com Thu Aug 2 20:26:48 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:26:48 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #10 results Message-ID: <9kcd28+47co@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23473 Here are the results of the HP4GU Contest #10, in which you were asked to submit creative ideas for a HP-themed party or fair. And, once again (you would not believe how tired I get of saying this) what the responses lacked in quantity they make up for in quality. Only three people -- Rucha, Catlady and Julie -- felt creative this week, but they all have submitted great suggestions. Julie, in particular, has offered enough fun and games to keep any bunch of HP fans amused for days. Thanks very much to our three creative people. A new contest will be posted tomorrow. ********************************************************************** Hi! I almost immediately thought of McGonagall's giant chess set when I read about the contest. Now that would be a cool game to have. Decide on a time period, for costumes, the more elaborate, the better, and have real people stand around in a marked chess board, and then have two people play chess with them. The chessmen/women could be cued to yell comments, like Ron's chess pieces do. The only problem might be the knights. Do you get real live horses on the chess board? Perhaps mechanical ones. There could be live music, battle cries, and all the usual fanfare. Now that would be a game, I'd look forward to. Rucha ******************************************************************** I've been trying to think of how to fake up some game with wands. On the one tentacle, children would almost certainly use the wands to put out each other's eyes. On the other tentacle, wands are so BASIC to the Potterverse. Back on the first tentacle, in two weeks I haven't been able to think of where to get the magic... I suppose the wand could have a long wire sticking out the business end, which everyone would join in a conspiracy to pretend they didn't see, so when the player points the wand at the target, the wire is actually touching the target.... making an electric connection.... that would light up some gaudy fiber-optics display: "Look, all these lights shot out of your wand!"..... catlady at wicca.net (Rita Prince Winston) ********************************************************************** Use Jelly Belly jelly beans for Every Flavored Beans! Pin the horn on the Unicorn, Pin the scar on Harry, etc. Temporary scar tattoos! You can buy these or "draw" them on! Create Famous Wizard Cards with children's names on them... use as place-marks or party favors. Decorate wizard hats or wands! Make a magic elixir with various drinks... see who makes the best tasting! Sort guests into houses for games (note: you may want to consider not sorting kids into Slytherin - kids may get upset or not participate) Muggle Quidditch I've thought quite a bit about how Muggles might adapt Quidditch without broom sticks, and I came up with a game which looks like a combination of basketball, dodgeball, freeze tag, and capture the flag. This could be a little complex for 9 year olds, but if you work step by step it could be rather fun. I would start off with a basketball type game - one ball, and two baskets (buckets, hoops or whatever you'd like to modify it for your group) Have a couple of people on each team (the chasers) in charge of scoring points by getting the (Quaffle) ball in the basket. Then add a dodgeball element to the basketball game. One or two people from each team can stand outside the "court" and throw nerf balls (Bludgers) at the players. Then you can add beaters, who protect the players on their team from the bludgers by catching the balls - and throwing it back out of the court. You can make a rule that anyone hit by a bludger (except for a beater, of course) must "freeze" (like in freeze tag) for a set amount of time (30 seconds??). (Mom might have to refree and time the freezing). Finally add "capture the flag" to your game of basketball/dodgeball/freeze tag. Two small balls (or a flag or just about anything) which will be the Snitch, are placed on opposite sides of the court. The seeker (or maybe seekers) from each team wants to retrieve the snitch from the opponents half the court and bring it back to their half the court. Just like capture the flag, as long as the seekers are on their half the court they are fine, But as soon as he crosses over to the "other side" of the court he can be captured by keeper for the opposing team. If a keeper tags the other teams seeker, the seeker has to sit out for a set amount of time (1 minute) and then return back to his side of the court. Like real quidditch, the game ends when one side catches a Snitch. I personally would make the snitch worth less than 150 points. I'd hate to see so much pressure to win the game put on one (or two) people from each team. But that is a judgment call based on what kind of kids are playing. This could be pretty complex to play, and to keep score, but it would be fun!!! ~~~~~~~~~~Other ideas~~~~~~~~~ 1)Make owls out of foam and used pipe cleaners for the feet...send owl messages to each other during the party/event. 2)Make magic wands out of stiff aquarium tubing stuffed with sparkly pipe cleaners, confetti etc and close the ends by stuffing a tiny ball of sculpy clay into each end. 2)Get gummy frogs and painted them with melted chocolate 3) There are tons of coloring pages and word searches online 4)On either side of the front door hang posters saying platform 9 and platform 10 with the door being platform 9 3/4. JulieW428 at yahoo.com (Julie) From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 20:55:43 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:55:43 -0000 Subject: The Sorting *Hat* Message-ID: <9kceof+epto@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23474 How does the Sorting Hat work? Here are my thoughts. We know that each of the Hogwarts founders put something of themselves into the hat. That, I believe, is the key. Imagine if you will, each student being brought before the four founders. Their job is to determine which of them would accept the child and be responsible for him. Would they decide on each student on the basis of two or three traits? No. They would consider how that child would fit in their house. They would consider who was already in it and where that child would be in the structure that is already present. They might even decide that they already have enough and will only accept one that was exactly what they were looking for. Let's imagine Harry's interview. Harry Potter is brought in before the founders. Hufflepuff remarks that Harry is steady, loyal, and knows how to work, but he tends to be a little too fool-hardy for my taste. Ravenclaw points out that he has great potential for knowing alot of magic, but he would have to apply himself to excel. Besides, we already have our fair share. Slytherin says flat-out, "This guy belongs in my house. He has great ambition. The real telling point is he's a parseltongue. Any arguments?" Griffindor pipes up, "Yes, several in fact. First of all, You can't have all the ambitious ones. I like them too. I particularly like the fact that he isn't afraid to stand up for himself or others. He's just what I look for. You've already got Draco Malfoy. Do you really think they were get along?" Slytherin would reply, "Getting along with each other is not a high priority in my house, as you know very well Godric. It's survival of the fittest, not the namby-pamby coddling you subscribe to. And Harry is a survivor. He will develop to his fullest potential with me. Besides, You cannot argue with the fact that he is a parseltongue. He belongs with me!" Griffindor might then have said, "And YOU can't argue with the fact that he is my last descendent, you snake!" So there you have it. Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw liked him, but didn't feel strongly one way or the other. Slytherin and Griffindor both wanted him badly. Harry chose not to go with Slytherin, so Griffindor it was. And that, my friends, is how the Sorting Hat works. :) Marcus From banjoken at optonline.net Thu Aug 2 21:06:32 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:06:32 -0000 Subject: The Sorting *Hat* In-Reply-To: <9kceof+epto@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kcfcp+snkj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23475 > And that, my friends, is how the Sorting Hat works. :) I think this is the best explanation I've seen for the Sorting Hat yet. Many of us (myself included) seem to forget that the "brains" in the hat come directly from the founders. Harry and company are in Gryffindor because Godric would have hand picked them for Gryffindor. Same for Malfoy in Slytherin, Cedric Diggory in Huffelpuff, and... I can't think of any Ravenclaws other than Cho and Penelope Clearwater, but you get the idea :) Ken From joym999 at aol.com Thu Aug 2 21:12:53 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:12:53 -0000 Subject: member to L.O.O.N. members Message-ID: <9kcfol+437u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23476 To: all members of L.O.O.N. Fr: Joywitch M. Curmudgeon -- Really, Extremely Anal Leader of the League of Obsessed Nitpickers (R.E.A.L. L.O.O.N.) It has come to my attention that our efforts are not universally appreciated. I refer to the very gentle, polite, and kindly-offered criticisms made by members of the R.E.S.T. (Reading for Entertainment, Style, and IntenT) members of HP4GU that our obsessive nitpicking is sometimes annoying. Now, as you all know, we have some world-class nitpickers among our ranks. However, we must keep in mind that nitpicking is a lot like any other kind of insect hunt. For example, take butterfly collecting. To some people, a butterfly collection is the proud trophy of a delightful sport in which the beautiful, delicate butterfly is chased through the wilderness by the intrepid collector, who fights her way through thorns, pushes his way through rubble, climbs over boulders and crawls through the dark, damp underbrush in order to snatch the elusive quarry. To other people, it is a bunch of dead bugs. So, you see, when someone spends hours crafting an intelligent, lengthy commentary about some profound aspect of the HP books, and the only response he or she gets in return is some whiny little nitpick from some L.O.O.N. who just HAS TO point out that it was Dean Thomas who said that and not Seamus Finnegan, you can see why he or she might get a little miffed. And, as someone who is guilty of making many, many of the aforementioned whiny little nitpicking posts, I have to (seriously for once) apologize for any offense, annoyance or hurt feelings which may have resulted. And I would like encourage all L.O.O.N. members to be more sensitive to the fact that not everyone shares our obsessiveness, which I might remind everyone is probably a good thing. Sometimes we tend to get lost in the details, particulary since, as has been pointed out, we have picked so much of the meat off the Harry Potter bones that we are in danger of perishing of hunger until the next scrap of food is thrown our way. But we must practice Constant Vigilance so that we do not become so completely obsessed with the details that we lose sight of the sheer beauty and pleasure of the Potterverse. So, on behalf of all the L.O.O.N.s, R.E.A.L. L.O.O.N.s, and even L.O.O.N. wannabes (like David Frankis) I would like to again apologize. We will try to be less L.O.O.N.y, but please R.E.S.T. of HP4GU, try and forgive us even when we are obnoxious pests, for we are obsessed and have trouble controlling our impulses. And whatever you do, dont take our nitpicking personally. We are not criticising you when we correct your posts. In fact, we love you for feeding our needs. And we do actually listen to the MEANING of your post, even though we can not always find something meaningful to say in return. Oh, and one more bit of L.O.O.N. business. I have to say a word here about one of our newer members, Ben Jones, whose collections of HP- related color references are truly breathtaking. I will be nominating young Jones for L.O.O.N. president at our next convention, since I predict that our current president, Amanda, is probably afraid to continue in her current postion for too much longer. (Look what be president of L.O.O.N. did to me -- although I AM feeling much better since they increased the dosage.) From SHENmagic at aol.com Thu Aug 2 21:18:29 2001 From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:18:29 EDT Subject: Accio Egg Message-ID: <38.19d32f18.289b1da5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23477 In a message dated 8/2/01 10:13:48 AM, "Amy Z" writes: << Wow. I've read GoF 5 times and it never occurred to me, nor has it shown up as a question on this list in the 7 months I've been here, so I suppose it's realistic that it wouldn't occur to any of the champions either. Or, assuming they're all thinking more clearly than we are (?): Since none of the champions did this, maybe there's a reason very obvious to them, e.g. dragons are known to shield their eggs from Accio. Why they don't shield them from being manually carried away, I dunno. >> Elizabeth wrote: >Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? My jaw dropped with Amy's post. Hadn't occurred to me the post referred to the first task! I've been assuming the why didn't Harry use the Accio charm to summon golden egg referred to being trapped on the trick staircase with the egg and map dropped out of reach. I agree with whomever suggested (sorry, forget who) that Harry simply didn't think of it, in shock, etc. To answer Amy- Re: summoning the egg from the dragon. Harry didn't know he had to retrieve an egg - he just knew pre task that he had to get past a dragon. Moody/Crouch had oriented him to his broom, that's what he had practiced, so that's the way his thoughts went. So, none of the triwizard champs used Accio? Wonder how fast an unstunned, fully alert and suspicious Momma dragon would respond to a levitating egg anyway? Cindered wizard (with outstretched hand)....if the triwizard champ had to stay within the field to perform the task! Aylihael P.S. Hugs (the way Californians applaud) to Ebony, Luke and David for great posts! "A Friend is someone who knows the song of your soul and sings it back to you when you've forgotten" From joym999 at aol.com Thu Aug 2 21:19:09 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:19:09 -0000 Subject: memo, not member In-Reply-To: <9kcfol+437u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kcg4d+8bbf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23478 Oops, I guess I am not quite anal enough, since that subject heading obviouslly should have been: MEMO to L.O.O.N. members, not MEMBER to L.O.O.N. members. --Joywitch From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 2 21:43:25 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:43:25 -0000 Subject: FAQ feedback, SHIP: R/H, D/H, Hollywood bickering, and a little bit of H/H In-Reply-To: <4CCB22ED.4998AA0A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kchht+v3qj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23479 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: an excellent cognizant speculation on the shipper issue. > Finally, on Hermione's reaction to Rita Skeeter, I noticed the other day that her anger at Rita hardens noticeably, becoming almost obsessive, after the bubotuber pus incident arising from the 'Hermione trifled with Harry' article. Is this a bit of evidence for H/H? My idea is that, although Hermione's immediate reaction is that it's clearly untrue, and therefore not hurtful, but as the consequences play out (including Krum's jealousy) she starts to feel an issue has been raised she did not want to think about, and takes it out on Skeeter. I'm inclined to think she does have affection for Harry, yes, but that Rita earned Hermione's wrath all on her own. Hermione would've been content to ignore rumors about herself and Harry until the Howlers started arriving and the hate mail with actual harmful effects. Owl Post apparently has no "no shipping hazardous materials" restrictions. To set against that RS's contributions are so appalling and potentially destructive that Hermione's anger can be justified purely on that basis. She may also feel that her freedom in developing her relationship with Krum to a place where she feels happy (not necessarily romance) has been reduced. > As for Krum -- I think she's ambivalent about him. He's the first guy who looked at her as a girl first and a wizard second, but Hermione is not the biggest Quidditch fan in the world either -- and that's likely Krum's bread and butter after his showing at the World Cup. So it depends on Hermione herself; will she pursue interests with either boy or remain the bookish girl? My guess is she'll pursue or set the stage to be pursued since she did make a concerted effort to show [and succeed in proving] that she is indeed female and cleans up *very* nicely. Indigo From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 2 21:49:32 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:49:32 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010802135747.02b59990@netmail.home.com> Message-ID: <9kchtc+hdq1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23480 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite wrote: > At 12:54 AM 8/2/01 +0000, you wrote: > > > > Circle. It would also explain why Voldemort didn't behave as if > >Snape > > > was one of his servants when he was inhabiting Quirrel. > > > Feel free to pick holes in this, as usual > > > > > > Pippin > > > >Occam's Razor > > > >JKR is seldom that convoluted. > > JKR has never started to write the concluding chapters of a series before, > either. > Oh, I don't know: I consider the Pettigrew-framed-Sirius-and-cut-off-his-own-finger- turned-into-a-rat-got-adopted-by-Percy-then-handed-down-to-Ron-and- chased-by-Crookshanks-before-being-revealed-as-the-Death-Eater-who- betrayed-the-Potters ...*gasp* pretty convoluted. Indigo From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 2 22:30:39 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:30:39 -0000 Subject: The Color Green In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9kckaf+cd3h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23481 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: >I must say that after reading the books, I wondered if the color of >magic is green. Well green is the traditional colour of nature. Mmmm...musing...perhaps magic is very much connected to nature. I mean look at how many subjects are too do with nature, Herbology, Care of Magical Creatures, Astronomy, Potions to some effects... >And if it *is* green, then perhaps people with green eyes >have more magic than others? Hm... An intresting idea. The fact that Lily and Harry both have green eyes is made into quite a big deal. And then there is the most obvious use of green in Harry's life. The green flash of the Avada Kedavra curse. I wonder is it always green or just when aimed at one of the Potter's? I can't rememeber and I haven't a copy of GoF around. Sofie, who actually has green! eyes From DinaYS at aol.com Thu Aug 2 22:52:48 2001 From: DinaYS at aol.com (DinaYS at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:52:48 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (Parting of the Ways) In-Reply-To: <9kc6e7+nr1t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kclk1+7chs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23482 In terms of who Dumbledore allows to hear, i think we have to think about what we know of the people. McGonagoll and Pompfrey are strict rule followers and are also not easily persuaded. Pompfrey is not going to ghet involved with somehting that mighht cause physicall danger. McGonagol is not easily persuaded. Remember they are dealing with breaking the perception of Sirius going back now 14 years. What everyone thought he did was very seriousand i think it would take a lot to convince people that what they have though was untrue. I always saw the Weasleys as not only a very close couple but also somehow as being part of the old crowd. Aurthur is clearly willing to bend the rules and i think therefore more able to look at a situation as very different than originally thought. If molly does not have the same immediate reaction, he could help convince her. I also believe that the Weasley parents know why harry is so special and trust the Dumbledore would only protect him no matter waht. Sorry to ramble, Dina From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 2 22:58:47 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:58:47 -0000 Subject: Analysis and HP4GU (was Re: On Respect and Kindness) In-Reply-To: <9kbm5m+9ibt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kclv7+st0p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23483 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > > My main point amidst all this babbling is to SKIP what you don't >want to read. Remember what Dumbledore said about our choices? We do not have to read every post and we do not have to correct every >person. > So there. > > --jenny from ravenclaw*********************** I would just like to applaud Jenny for saying this. I'm a relative newbie, I joined at the end of June, I think. At first I only lurked or answered posts but recently I've had the courage to post my own ideas and you've all been extremly nice about finding things you agreed with. I felt extremly nervous disagreeing with some of you more established nitpickers because as a non-adult (aged 17 but mature, I think, for it.)I was worried, that as I've seen happen, my ideas would get ripped to shreds (though Steve still scares me slightly! Mainly because his knowledge of the canon is extensive, I dread a 'because it says so in the book' post about one of my ideas). The only thing that has bothered me is that sometimes people have obviously thought very hard about a reply for a topic and it is just ignored. On one occssion I replied to a certain post, adding some of my own ideas to the end. But no-one responded so I cut that section and made it a new post and then got several replies. So I'd like to make the point that just because a thread has being going on for a while it doesn't mean that latecomers adding their views don't have just as valid ideas as those who said their piece first. Sofie, Gryffindor. I apologise for any spelling mistakes or grammatical mistakes but it's midnight and I've had a long day! From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 2 23:04:49 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:04:49 -0000 Subject: The Sorting *Hat* In-Reply-To: <9kceof+epto@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kcmah+domr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23484 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: Slytherin says flat-out, "This guy > belongs in my house. He has great ambition. The real telling point > is he's a parseltongue. Any arguments?" > > Griffindor pipes up, "Yes, several in fact. First of all, You can't > have all the ambitious ones. I like them too. I particularly like > the fact that he isn't afraid to stand up for himself or others. He's > just what I look for. You've already got Draco Malfoy. Do you > really think they were get along?" > > Slytherin would reply, "Getting along with each other is not a high > priority in my house, as you know very well Godric. It's survival of > the fittest, not the namby-pamby coddling you subscribe to. And Harry > is a survivor. He will develop to his fullest potential with me. > Besides, You cannot argue with the fact that he is a parseltongue. He > belongs with me!" > > Griffindor might then have said, "And YOU can't argue with the fact > that he is my last descendent, you snake!" > > So there you have it. Slytherin and Griffindor both > wanted him badly. Harry chose not to go with Slytherin, so Griffindor > it was. > > And that, my friends, is how the Sorting Hat works. :) > > Marcus I know you all hate 'me too' posts but I just had to say I love the Founders dialogue and I agree totally that this is how it works! From pbnesbit at msn.com Thu Aug 2 23:05:01 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:05:01 -0000 Subject: The Color Green In-Reply-To: <9kckaf+cd3h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kcmat+923t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23485 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie Campbell" wrote: (Snip) > An intresting idea. The fact that Lily and Harry both have green eyes > is made into quite a big deal. And then there is the most obvious use > of green in Harry's life. The green flash of the Avada Kedavra curse. > I wonder is it always green or just when aimed at one of the > Potter's? I can't rememeber and I haven't a copy of GoF around. > > Sofie, who actually has green! eyes It seems as though it's always green. In GoF, pg. 19 (UK ed.): 'There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor.' and also: In GoF, pg. 553 (UK ed.): 'A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: *'Avada Kedavra!'* 'A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him...' Peace & Plenty, Parker From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 23:22:41 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:22:41 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (Parting of the Ways) In-Reply-To: <9kc6e7+nr1t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kcnc1+u780@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23486 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mcandrew at b... wrote: > > 2) Chap 36, Parting of the Ways. (p. 617-8 UK) At Harry's hospital > > bedside after the third task, Sirius and Snape are introduced to > each > > other by Dumbledore - but not until Madam Pomfrey has left the room > > and is out of hearing. Obviously he doesn't trust her as he does > > Snape or Molly Weasley, who is still present. Yet Pomfrey is a > > highly respected member of Dumbledore's handpicked staff. So why is > > she regarded as so much less trustworthy than some of the others? > > More confusing is why does Dumbledore get rid of McGonagall? Pomfrey > I can understand: "Madame Pomfrey was standing frozen at the foot of > Harry's bed, her hands over her mouth. Mrs Weasley was still standing > over Harry, her hand on his shoulder to prevent him rising." > > I don't think it's a matter of trust, I think he wanted as few people > as possible to know about Sirius, because of panic and because of > safety. It could be that Molly Weasley is stronger than we might > expect as somebody else proposed, or it could be that Dumbledore knew > that she wasn't leaving Harry that night, as evidenced by her > reaction to Voldemort's rebirth in the quote above. Her priority is > Harry. So he could only get rid of Bill and Pomfrey. Why does he get > rid of the McG? Any theories about this? > > -Hella Sorry for the rather long quote, I wasn't sure where to snip out sections of it. Anyway, I think perhaps more important than why he asks Pomfrey and McGonagall to leave could be why Mrs. Weasley is allowed to stay. It's quite true that Dumbledore probably wouldn't have been able to pry her away from Harry's side with the Jaws of Life by that point--but maybe he would have had her stay anyway. It might be important that she see and trust Sirius Black so that he can have more direct contact with Harry when he is at the Weasley's or something like that. We won't really know until Book 5. But Harry is probably going to undergo even tighter protection (much to his dismay) and the Weasley's are going to have to know that Black is not an enemy to Harry. But if you do want to talk about why not let McGonagall stay, then let's. I think McGonagall probably would eventually be accepting of the fact that Sirius Black is innocent. She does seem like the type to be very stubborn, but she also seems to have a deep-seated enough respect of Dumbledore to believe what he says. However, I'm not sure this would be the best way to go about it even if he did intend to tell McGonagall. It'd probably be better to sit her down and talk to her, not just spring it on her. She might ask too many questions and refuse to let the conversation go on until they had been answered to her satisfaction. Obviously, Dumbledore's most pressing need at that moment was to get Severus and Sirius to acknowledge each other so this 'intrusion' by McGonagall would not be acceptable. I do think she must be brought into the know at some point (in fact, maybe she already has been, after the events of PoA), because I see her as a strong supporter of Dumbledore, if not a very active one with the school being a more pressing concern than Voldemort. This is one of my less coherent posts. Sorry about that. -Luke From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Aug 3 00:04:17 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:04:17 -0500 Subject: SHIP: a little bit of H/H (small FF comments) References: <4CCB22ED.4998AA0A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <3B69EA81.210FB97C@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23487 Hi everyone -- Can't resist .... dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote: > I think it is entirely possible that > Draco's desire to win may well take the form of attempted conquest of > her affections, though as his character stands, that would be based on > lust and the desire for mastery. If he then fails (as surely he > must), he will resort either to violence and hatred or to a > comprehensive re-evaluation of his own character and possible > repentance. (This would be a little bit Darcy-like, BTW.) > > Has any fanfic explored this view of Draco? (I have read hardly any, > though I don't take the principled 'other people's toothbrush' view of > it) You should most certainly read Heidi Tandy's on-going Surfeit of Curses -- found at HP_Paradise and at FictionAlley.org (under novel length fanfics, schnoogle.com). And, it goes without saying that the above is the very foundation of Cassie's Draco series (again, look on FictionAlley.org). > Finally, on Hermione's reaction to Rita Skeeter, I noticed the other > day that her anger at Rita hardens noticeably, becoming almost > obsessive, after the bubotuber pus incident arising from the 'Hermione > trifled with Harry' article. Is this a bit of evidence for H/H? My > idea is that, although Hermione's immediate reaction is that it's > clearly untrue, and therefore not hurtful, but as the consequences > play out (including Krum's jealousy) she starts to feel an issue has > been raised she did not want to think about, and takes it out on > Skeeter. I really like this! Thanks, David. :--) I hadn't really picked up on that nuance before, but it definitely makes sense. If you have romantic interest in someone but you don't "want" them to find out, you might well react as you've noted Hermione doing. She could be angry because she doesn't want anyone to start analyzing her own behavior too closely; she doesn't want anyone to think on those terms because then someone might ask questions she'd rather not answer. I think your theory supports FITD more than H/H of course, and I become more & more convinced of FITD every day. I think she likes Harry romantically, and she either is actively hiding it OR hasn't really acknowledged it to herself as yet. In either case, she doesn't want to talk about it, and she reacts accordingly. Definitely adding this to the FAQ when it's next updated ... Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caliburncy at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 00:17:12 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 00:17:12 -0000 Subject: The Valentine (was Chicken Meat) In-Reply-To: <76496B15.2E9ADFDB.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kcqi8+45pr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23488 This is the second of my set of answers to David's questions. It is shorter than my other and is really just a cute story more than anything else. I am still writing the answers to the questions I am most interested in answering in depth which is why I am starting instead with the "easier" ones for me to answer (even if, as a result of them being easier, the things I say are far less profound). --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > Finally, to keep the nitpickers happy, who sent the Valentine to Harry? I warn you, I have a loaded draft e-mail and I'm not afraid to use it. This has been discussed, but not got to the bottom of, IMO. (And here I *have* searched the entire archive on the word Valentine.) Okay everyone, time for True Confessions on what I beieve is my only and certainly my biggest Harry Potter misread. When I read through CoS the first time, I thought that that Valentine was sent by none other than . . . Lockhart. No, not as a slash thing. I misinterpreted when he said that his (not exact quote) 'card-carrying cupids would be delivering YOUR valentines' to mean that he had written Valentine's for each and every one of the students. I don't know why, but this seemed like a Lockhart thing to do so I didn't think much of it. I didn't realize that by 'YOUR valentines' he didn't mean 'the valentine's I am writing for YOU', but rather 'the valentines YOU are writing for EACH OTHER'. I did, of course, come to this realization later and felt quite foolish. Silly me. Anyway, ever since I figured that out, I had pondered whether or not it really was Ginny who sent the valentine, seeing as how we don't have any proof. But I still don't know. It could have been anyone really if you go solely by evidence. I would love to see this loaded draft e-mail, David, if you're interested in posting it. -Luke From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Aug 3 00:17:36 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:17:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Accio Egg Message-ID: <60.11d2633e.289b47a0@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23489 In a message dated 8/2/01 4:19:34 PM Central Daylight Time, SHENmagic at aol.com writes: << I've been assuming the why didn't Harry use the Accio charm to summon golden egg referred to being trapped on the trick staircase with the egg and map dropped out of reach. I agree with whomever suggested (sorry, forget who) that Harry simply didn't think of it, in shock, etc. >> LOL Don't worry, you're not the only one. I was a bit shocked too. I was one that posted it about not thinking in shock (although I *think* someone did it afterwards with the first task). I think the 'Accio' spell will come in handy a lot more. Like I said earlier, Snape wouldn't have automatically assumed it was Harry if he would have gotten the map. He could have used it in a few other things. Anyone else know of small charms that should come in handy more? Forge From DinaYS at aol.com Fri Aug 3 00:25:45 2001 From: DinaYS at aol.com (DinaYS at aol.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 00:25:45 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (Parting of the Ways) In-Reply-To: <9kcnc1+u780@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kcr29+643s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23490 Okay i am not leaving that whole thing in and i am not going to splice because all of it was really good. * i think molly is really emotionally and magically strong as many women who are mothers, esp. mothers of a lot of children and esp. mothers of a lot of boys are incredible and will usually get what they want (i teach kindergarten, i deal with a lot of moms) She is going to have to know in order to protect Harry, as will Arabella Figg and a handful of other people. Obvious Albus will only tell people who can handle the news about sirius. A mothers love protected him in his first year and it would not surprise me if a mothers love continued to protect him. (okay i went and saw my best friend's 13 hour old baby today, so i am a little amzed by babies and moms right now) *McGonagall will eventually be told, but not until absolutely necessary. IF she is not told, i think with her obvious intellegence, knowledge of transfiguration and being an animagnus, i think she will figure it out. Albus might be letting her figure it out (after all he sent her to go get the dog in the pumpkin patch) He seems to like giving people the empowerment of knowledge and learning (Mirror of Erised). Okay bye, Dina From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 00:21:00 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 02:21:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAQF Workings of the Marauder's Map References: <9kc8nk+d0pc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <028a01c11bb2$2c7b95f0$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 23491 Markus suggested, > How do the dots work? > > I have always thought that the dots only show what might be of > interest to mischief makers. To wit, a teacher safely in his or her > sleeping quarters is not a threat, but a student or ghost wandering > the halls who might stumble upon them is. If the map showed the > location of everybody in the castle all the time, it would be > information overload. But if it only showed those out-and-about, it > would have meaning. Howdy Marcus! I happen to be working on Pettigrew, who appears (or rather doesn't appear) at the center of this particular chestnut. I've been collecting Maurauders' Map theories for a couple of weeks now, and yes your theory is one of the popular ones. A few thousand posts back, Steve Vander Ark made a strong argument for it, which lead to a discussion about intentions and magic. (Of course, one can wonder why the map didn't think anyone would have been interested to see that one of its creators was still alive. It did show Peter to Lupin, so why didn't it show him to anyone else?) And yes, there are other theories out there too--and it is possible to combine many them. For now I'll just promise the best overview I can come up with! The FAQ in question should be done within a week. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) PS If anyone would like to make a really outrageous statement about the proponents of any other Map theory (including references to their intelligence, manners, grammer, patriotism or mothers), please do so now. It would certainly lend excitement to a rather dry topic ... _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 00:46:07 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 00:46:07 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9kchtc+hdq1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kcs8f+jae8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23492 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite wrote: > > At 12:54 AM 8/2/01 +0000, you wrote: > > > > > > Circle. It would also explain why Voldemort didn't behave as if > > >Snape > > > > was one of his servants when he was inhabiting Quirrel. > > > > Feel free to pick holes in this, as usual > > > > > > > > Pippin > > > > > >Occam's Razor > > > > > >JKR is seldom that convoluted. > > > > JKR has never started to write the concluding chapters of a series > before, > > either. > > > Oh, I don't know: > > I consider the Pettigrew-framed-Sirius-and-cut-off-his-own-finger- > turned-into-a-rat-got-adopted-by-Percy-then-handed-down-to-Ron-and- > chased-by-Crookshanks-before-being-revealed-as-the-Death-Eater-who- > betrayed-the-Potters ...*gasp* pretty convoluted. > > Indigo Okay, let me put it another way -- "Have you ever hear of a plan where so many things could go wrong?" (CoS Ch12) I can very well believe Pettigrew's story above because it just happened without anybody planning it. Life does get complicated sometimes. I draw the line at convoluted schemes. So howabout pseudo-Moody, you ask? I don't know. How Bart Jr managed to hood-wink Dumbledore for an entire school-year is beyond me. Marcus. From indigo at indigosky.net Fri Aug 3 01:25:54 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 01:25:54 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9kcs8f+jae8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kcuj2+lk6l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23493 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite wrote: > > > At 12:54 AM 8/2/01 +0000, you wrote: > > > > > > > > Circle. It would also explain why Voldemort didn't behave as > if > > > >Snape > > > > > was one of his servants when he was inhabiting Quirrel. > > > > > Feel free to pick holes in this, as usual > > > > > > > > > > Pippin > > > > > > > >Occam's Razor > > > > > > > >JKR is seldom that convoluted. > > > > > > JKR has never started to write the concluding chapters of a > series > > before, > > > either. > > > > > Oh, I don't know: > > > > I consider the Pettigrew-framed-Sirius-and-cut-off-his-own-finger- > > turned-into-a-rat-got-adopted-by-Percy-then-handed-down-to-Ron- and- > > chased-by-Crookshanks-before-being-revealed-as-the-Death-Eater- who- > > betrayed-the-Potters ...*gasp* pretty convoluted. > > > > Indigo > > Okay, let me put it another way -- > > "Have you ever hear of a plan where so many things could go wrong?" > (CoS Ch12) > > I can very well believe Pettigrew's story above because it just > happened without anybody planning it. Not true. Pettigrew planned it. He just didn't count on Sirius escaping with a mad-on. Life does get complicated > sometimes. I draw the line at convoluted schemes. > So howabout pseudo-Moody, you ask? I don't know. How Bart Jr > managed to hood-wink Dumbledore for an entire school-year is beyond > me. > > Marcus. Barty Jr qualifies as "crazy like a Fox" -- and he himself worked very hard to get into character. A bad guy replacing a good guy is an old dramatic chestnut. It wasn't really convoluted, though. It was monomaniacal. He wanted to get close to Harry so he could deliver Harry to Voldemort. Everything else was incidental to him. I wouldn't be surprised if Snape had done something of this sort. It's actually smarter than going in as himself and having Voldemort none the wiser about his defector after 14 years. Can you suggest an alternative that's less convoluted but still covers all the bases Pippin's theory has? No disrespect intended. I'd just like to hear another theory if you consider Pippin's so implausible. Indigo From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 3 01:27:35 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 01:27:35 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9kcs8f+jae8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kcum7+q49k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23494 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite wrote: > > > At 12:54 AM 8/2/01 +0000, you wrote: > > > > > > > > Circle. It would also explain why Voldemort didn't behave as > if > > > >Snape > > > > > was one of his servants when he was inhabiting Quirrel. > > > > > Feel free to pick holes in this, as usual > > > > > > > > > > Pippin > > > > > > > >Occam's Razor > > > > > > > >JKR is seldom that convoluted. > > > > > > JKR has never started to write the concluding chapters of a > series > > before, > > > either. > > > > > Oh, I don't know: > > > > I consider the Pettigrew-framed-Sirius-and-cut-off-his-own-finger- > > turned-into-a-rat-got-adopted-by-Percy-then-handed-down-to-Ron-and- > > chased-by-Crookshanks-before-being-revealed-as-the-Death-Eater-who- > > betrayed-the-Potters ...*gasp* pretty convoluted. > > > > Indigo > > Okay, let me put it another way -- > > "Have you ever hear of a plan where so many things could go wrong?" > (CoS Ch12) > > I can very well believe Pettigrew's story above because it just > happened without anybody planning it. Life does get complicated > sometimes. I draw the line at convoluted schemes. > > So howabout pseudo-Moody, you ask? I don't know. How Bart Jr > managed to hood-wink Dumbledore for an entire school-year is beyond > me. Me too, but I figure Dumbledore was glad enough to have the functional Moody he remembered instead of the paranoid one, that he failed to follow up on his doubts. Wishful thinking is not confined to Muggles. As for Snape's disguise, wishing to conceal his involvement in the DE's from someone else, his family or his employers perhaps, he might have joined the outer circle pseudonymously, been promoted unexpectedly and decided to continue the deception, to protect his family, say. Convoluted, but not beyond the reach of JKR's imagination. We've certainly learned that in the wizarding world things are seldom what they seem. Pippin From caliburncy at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 01:28:27 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 01:28:27 -0000 Subject: What makes Harry special? (was Chicken Meat) In-Reply-To: <76496B15.2E9ADFDB.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kcunr+1c4d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23495 My third reponse to David's questions and one of the ones I am most interested in responding to, because of a post I made earlier. I somehow don't think I've brought anything strictly *new* to the discussion here, but, well, I'm saying it my way so maybe it will be kind of unique. :) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > What makes Harry special? This has been explored a good deal, but I > think to some extent perceived as 'special Harry' versus 'ordinary > Harry'. I would say that Harry, even as conceived by the 'ordinary' > proponents, is special, and that we have more of a triangular set of > possibilities: > a. Harry is special in his innate characteristics (as foreshadowed > by his Quidditch and Imperius resisting abilities, but with > something more needed to defeat Voldemort) > b. Harry is special in his relationships, mainly that his mother > loved him, but possibly also what he got from Voldemort > (Parseltongue, the scar) or Gryffindor > c. Harry is special in his choices, in some ways the most > interesting as he could stop being special at any time by changing > his choices. > > This topic is difficult to debate because the single most compelling > piece of evidence that we have of his specialness, that Voldemort > singled him out for attack, doesn't help us decide. But all three > views are firmly embedded in canon. Can we put them together? Thanks for bringing this up. I also, after my post about not being fond of the Super Harry theory, noticed this problem with distinctions. I also consider it more triangular than dual, though I perhaps would draw the lines differently. I started to explain in the same format where I would draw the lines, but that only served to muddle my overall point so I'm going to skip it and describe how I think Harry is special. Harry is firstly special in the way most main characters are which is that he is more of a fighter, has stronger morals, makes bigger mistakes, harbors greater passions, has more to overcome, etc. than some of the other characters. Along the same lines, he is special from the personality aptitudes he has shown. All the characters in the books have aptitudes of their own, but it happens that Harry's are a lot of what is needed for the struggle of good and evil that he is caught up in. He has a strong will, perserverance, grace under fire, compassion, courage, keen intelligence, etc. He also trusts and relies on his friends, which IS a personality aptitude. He has other aptitudes as well such as skill at Quidditch that do not necessarilly (but in some cases might) come into play in this greater struggle. These should not be discounted. They are in many ways the most important of all. Harry could have the scar and boundless magical talent and be the heir of God himself and it wouldn't mean anything without this kind of "basic" specialness. These qualities affect all the choices he makes. These qualities give him his drive and the reason for him to be the kind of hero he is. They also lead him a great deal of the way on his path to success. You might even explain some of his exceptional abilities through this alone, although you certainly don't have to. Like his resistance to the Imperious Curse. Harry is a very strong-willed, independant kid. This force of will is far more important than his wizarding skills as regards the Imperious Curse. He need not necessarilly be a more powerful wizard than other fully-trained adult wizards to have an easier time resisting the Imperious Curse than they do. He may well be a more powerful wizard once fully-trained, but I think it is his personality, his will-power that was a bigger factor in this particular instance (though perhaps not the only factor). Harry is secondly special in his connections to Voldemort. These are the most blatantly obvious ways in which he is different from others. He has the scar and its special powers, speaks Parseltongue, is chosen by the brother to Voldemort's wand, etc. These are the result of his experiences. Specifically the results of the rebounded Avada Kedavra curse. Note that, with the exception of being a Parseltongue, these things are really only useful versus Voldemort. Harry and Voldemort are inextricably linked as adversaries, both as cause and effect. If Harry went up against, say, Grindelwald (assuming here were still alive) these things would not be helpful to him. He may well prove to be the strongest wizard alive some day, but that has no bearing on how these special advantages play out. And he might even be able to beat Voldemort without being the strongest wizard alive as a result of some of these advantages. I personally do not believe Harry is special in the third way, which is one of two things: the Super Harry theory or the Heir of Gryffindor theory (or both, I guess, as they're not mutually exclusive). These two are different in letter, but to me similar in spirit. They both imply in one way or another that Harry is different from other wizards in some genetic way. That's actually the reason I personally don't like them. But they are entirely valid, readily supportable theories, so the fact that I don't like them doesn't mean anything. I only hope that it doesn't go this route, because to me it violates Dumblebore's notion that blood is not important. In my opinion, Harry should not be able to win because he is genetically superior either via the Super Harry/Mage Factor way or by having some of Godric Gryffindor's DNA. How is needing to be a Gryffindor descendant or needing to have a Mage Factor any different in order to be more powerful than Voldemort than the kind of Pure-blood fanatacism Slytherin embraced? Many people think you can't explain why Voldemort came after Harry or why he couldn't kill him without a third kind of specialness like this. They may be right. I do actually have some alternate explanations, but that's not the point. My objection to this third kind of specialness is more on principle than evidence. I have so much more to say on this, but I think I'll wait for responses. -Luke From neilward at dircon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 01:36:01 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 02:36:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAQF Workings of the Marauder's Map References: <9kc8nk+d0pc@eGroups.com> <028a01c11bb2$2c7b95f0$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <005801c11bbc$a7da7cc0$7a3570c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 23496 Markus made some suggestions about the Marauder's Map, << How do the dots work?>> Mike "The Goat" noted that this topic was central to the Pettigrew FAQ: <> Actually, this topic is already covered in some detail (although not completely up to date) in the Magical Devices FAQ. The workings of the Marauder's Map have given us all many a sleepless night, it seems! Keep those theories coming . http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/devices.html Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 01:53:49 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (Katie Iles) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 01:53:49 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Favourite subjects reflected in your house? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23497 Hi! I'm Katie and I'm not technically a newbie...but I've never posted before (due in part to the fact that I didn't want to look stupid by having to be told to check the FAQ's...)so I'm taking this opportunity to start out posting small....baby steps, Kate, baby steps....Anyway, this is my opinion, so nobody can tell me I'm wrong anyways (ha!) I think that the reason that JKR hasn't had more important characters in other houses because we only see the things that Harry sees. I think of the reader's standpoint as being someplace behind Harry's head, on a miniature floating sofa! We only get to interact with people the same way that Harry would be able to interact with people. I feel the way that JKR portays the interaction between the houses is somewhat accurate. Never having been in a situation like Hogwart's, I don't know first hand what it would be like to have four separate houses with whom you eat, sleep, play and learn with. But IMHO, I can't see Harry having the opportunity to become best friends with Justin Finch-Fletchley for instance, simply because the only time we get to see him is during class or for a few moments at mealtimes. In my opinion, JKR hasn't portrayed Gryffindor as the superior house, and is leaving the characters in other houses out because they are considered 'lower-class' to her. Actually, I see Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff as the more admirable and upstanding houses, as upposed to Slytherin (which I don't think is entirely evil, just hits below the belt sometimes in order to get what they want...and NO I don't have an examply from canon for that...it's simply my impression!) Oh, what's that? You want to know something about this rambling poster who has suddenly hopped out of the woodwork?!?! Wee-eelll.... My name is Katie (or Kate, Or Katelyn, or Lynnie....it all depends on who a talk to...) and I am really looking forward to voicing some of my opinions on issues that come up in the future. I'm almost 15, but I can be mature when the mood strikes me ;)...and you'll no doubt find that I'm very opinionated, although I DO try to ALWAYS be nice... Happy posting! Katie* *The not-quite newbie who has yet to find (and is frantically searching for) a witty little HP quote to slap on the bottom of my rants--ahem--posts!! ;)* >From: "Sofie Campbell" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Favourite subjects reflected in your house? >Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:40:21 -0000 > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., >"Sofie Campbell" wrote: > > > Am I the only person who thinks Lily was a Ravenclaw (though I > > >made her a Gryffindor in my fic)? > >rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > > Unfortunately, the answer is no. Both were in Gryffindor. > > > > Courtesy: Harry Potter Lexicon. > > Source: JKR Interview, Scholastic.com, October 16, 2000 > > > > Q: Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? > > JKR: Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor > > (naturally). > > > > http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm > > > > ....Craig > >Thank you for clarifying that for me. I suspected that she might have >been in Gryffindor as JKR does seem slightly favourist to this house. >I still think she would have made a better Ravenclaw though. I'm >considering starting a petition for an important character to be in a >house besides Gryffindor (who isn't evil and who doesn't die). Does >anyone else feel like that? >Sofie > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cassandraclaire at mail.com Fri Aug 3 02:14:07 2001 From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 02:14:07 -0000 Subject: FAQ feedback, FF, Draco In-Reply-To: <4CCB22ED.4998AA0A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kd1df+q5la@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23498 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > Query: However, when we consider what Draco must think of Hermione, the picture is rather more interesting. (snip) He also discovers at the ball that she can look stunning. I think it is entirely possible that Draco's desire to win may well take the form of attempted conquest of her affections, though as his character stands, that would be based on lust and the desire for mastery. If he then fails (as surely he must), he will resort either to violence and hatred or to a comprehensive re-evaluation of his own character and possible repentance. (This would be a little bit Darcy-like, BTW.) > > Has any fanfic explored this view of Draco? (I have read hardly any, though I don't take the principled 'other people's toothbrush' view of it) ----- *waves arm around* You must, must read Heidi Tandy's "Surfeit of Curses" at fictionalley.org, for a great take on Draco's home life and a believable D/H connection. http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Heidi/ And, speaking of Darcy, you should also read her "Homage" series, which revists Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, casting Draco in the role of Darcy. (JA fans scream.) It works, it really does. Cassandra From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Aug 3 02:30:57 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 02:30:57 -0000 Subject: What makes Harry special? (was Chicken Meat) In-Reply-To: <9kcunr+1c4d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kd2d1+urq2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23499 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > > Harry is firstly special in the way most main characters are which is > that he is more of a fighter, has stronger morals, makes bigger > mistakes, harbors greater passions, has more to overcome, etc. than > some of the other characters.> < He has a strong will, perserverance, grace under fire, compassion, courage, keen intelligence, etc. He also trusts and relies on his friends, which IS a personality aptitude.> Well said, Luke! You pretty much explained why I also think Harry is special (and why I adore him so much). Here's what I want to add: Harry is that quiet kid who sits in the back of the class. He isn't the most handsome (Cedric), the funniest (Fred and George) or the strongest student. He isn't even the most outspoken (Hermione). However, there is something about Harry, his quietness, respect of others, humility, that makes everyone respect him. Harry doesn't have to be Superman Harry to be special (which is exactly what Luke explained so beautifully). It is simply what he is within. I do believe that Harry does possess some special powers as well (I really like the Big V connection thing, too, Luke), but primarily, it is his inner strength that makes Harry stand out from all the others. Okay, I just reiterated what Luke said, and I know I've said all of this before, but I just love to talk about Harry. --jenny from ravenclaw, who loves to talk about Harry ***************************************************** From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Aug 3 03:18:26 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:18:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Accio Egg In-Reply-To: <60.11d2633e.289b47a0@cs.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010802201607.00ce5d20@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23500 At 08:17 PM 8/2/01 -0400, JenniferABacker at cs.com wrote: >LOL Don't worry, you're not the only one. I was a bit shocked too. I was one >that posted it about not thinking in shock (although I *think* someone did it >afterwards with the first task). I think the 'Accio' spell will come in handy >a lot more. Like I said earlier, Snape wouldn't have automatically assumed it >was Harry if he would have gotten the map. I always assumed Harry didn't use Accio on the Map because it would probably give away the game if Snape saw the Map zoom up the stairs and then suddenly vanish halfway up. >He could have used it in a few >other things. Anyone else know of small charms that should come in handy more? I'd like to see the Shield Charm, though I gather it's useless against the Unforgivables... -- Dave From john at walton.to Fri Aug 3 02:47:47 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:47:47 -0400 Subject: FILK: Hogwarts, Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23501 Hogwarts, Hogwarts (from PS/SS) (to the tune of Frank Sinatra's "New York, New York" THE SCENE: In a small boat outside the Hut On The Rock sit HARRY POTTER and RUBEUS HAGRID. HARRY: Start spreading the news! I'm leaving today! I'm gonna be a part of it At Old Hogwarts! [PLATFORM 9 3/4] This magical train Will whisk me away Right in the very heart of it Next to Hogsmeade. I'm going to get off this train 'n' get in a little boat And row across a deep lake Avoiding a squid... My Privet Drive blues Are melting away I'll make a brand new start of it At Old Hogwarts I don't know that Snape's there But really I don't care I'm going to Hogwarts, Ho-ogwarts! [THE GREAT HALL] I want to get up off that stool at the front of the Hall To find I'm in Gryffindor, not Slytherin, with Albus Dumbledore watching o'er meeeeee... [INSTRUMENTAL; HARRY sits on the Stool, which yells "GRYFFINDOR". HARRY jumps on top of the stool and sings:] My Muggle life blues Are melting away I'm gonna make new friends right here At Old Hogwarts. Oh, Ronald Weasley's here! Hermi'ne's a bit weird, I love it at Hogwarts, Ho-ogwaaaaarts! Ho-ogwaaaaaaaarts! Hogwarts! From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Aug 3 04:23:58 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (Forge Weasly) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 04:23:58 -0000 Subject: Accio Egg In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010802201607.00ce5d20@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9kd90u+4399@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23502 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > I always assumed Harry didn't use Accio on the Map because it would > probably give away the game if Snape saw the Map zoom up the stairs > and then suddenly vanish halfway up. I'm not going to write the whole thing because it's too long, but I think he should have had time to get it. If he couldn't hide it, he probably could have cleaned it so it wouldn't show where he was. When the egg started wailing, Harry heard Filch's footsteps. Filch talked to Mr. Norris: "Egg? My sweet! This is a Triwizard clue! This belongs to a school champion!" "PEEVES! You've been stealing." After that he had to pull back the tapestry. IMO that's plenty of time. But then, again you could be right and it may have happened faster than it seems. Personally, I just think the boy was thinking correctly at the time. Forge *who just realized she's never given an intro* From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 04:52:05 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 04:52:05 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9kcuj2+lk6l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kdall+oqsn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23503 >> Massive Snip << > Can you suggest an alternative that's less convoluted but still > covers all the bases Pippin's theory has? > > No disrespect intended. I'd just like to hear another theory if you > consider Pippin's so implausible. > > Indigo I do not have a fully developed theory, no. But I think I can piece together some of the pieces. Snape joined the Death Eaters willing. They deal with hate. He has alot of hate. So it seems like a good fit. However, Voldemort starts killing people. This Snape cannot condone. But now he's trapped and can't get out. He looks around trying to get out of it. Who better to approach that Dumbledore? He goes to Dumbledore. Dumbledore accepts him as a double agent, but doesn't fully trust him. To prove his bona fides, Snape agrees to do something extremely dangerous. Part of it is to spy on Voldemort, but not all. Snape performs the deed and earns Dumbledore's trust. After Voldemort falls, Snape is exceptionally grateful to Dumbledore for giving him his self-respect and honour back. Everyone hears how he spied on Voldemort for Dumbledore. They do NOT reveal the full task he preformed. Voldemort rises again. Snape cannot go back as a spy. One, Voldemort doesn't give second chances. Two, Voldemort seems to know lies. However, the extremely dangerous task still can be preformed. Dumbledore asks him to do it, he agrees. Now, what that task is, I do not know. I am sure it has something to do with his mastery of potions. That is my theory. As you can see, it has a big hole in it. Just what is that nasty task? I don't know. But I am certain it isn't spying. Marcus From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 04:52:48 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 04:52:48 -0000 Subject: memo, not member In-Reply-To: <9kcg4d+8bbf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kdan0+ckae@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23504 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > Oops, I guess I am not quite anal enough, since that subject heading > obviouslly should have been: > > MEMO to L.O.O.N. members, not MEMBER to L.O.O.N. members. > > --Joywitch Oh, I thought that you were trying to convey something entirely different. MEMO, as in "memorandum-- that which is to be remembered", not MEMBER, as in-- Well, that's a relief! Haggridd From smurfs143143 at aol.com Fri Aug 3 04:57:07 2001 From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 04:57:07 -0000 Subject: FAQF Workings of the Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <028a01c11bb2$2c7b95f0$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <9kdav3+t6mn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23505 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: > (Of course, one can wonder why the map didn't think anyone would have been > interested to see that one of its creators was still alive. It did show > Peter to Lupin, so why didn't it show him to anyone else?) > Baaaaaa! > > Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) ~ I had always thought the map only would show only people of personal significance to the viewer. Therefore, that could be why the map showed Peter to Lupin and characters such as Snape, to Harry. > PS If anyone would like to make a really outrageous statement about the > proponents of any other Map theory (including references to their > intelligence, manners, grammer, patriotism or mothers), please do so now. ~ This might have been brought up before, but I'm not too sure, so I'm sorry if it has. There has been a pesky question that has been bothering me for a while. When Snape tried to figure out the workings of the map in Book 3, the map identified him and insulted him immediately. I have been wondering if, since the map could do that, could its members (James and Sirius especially) talk to Harry if he tried? Could they hold a conversation through the map? Again, I'm sorry if the thought is kinda stupid or was brought up before.... - Elizabeth From lilmissiz at aol.com Fri Aug 3 05:17:41 2001 From: lilmissiz at aol.com (lilmissiz at aol.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 05:17:41 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat considerations & Neville In-Reply-To: <9kc7mp+dufe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kdc5l+jekr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23506 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: And most people would say the Hat MUST take into > account characteristics to some extent, which is likely true. > Aspirations could be a factor as well. Such as in Neville's case, > though this, too, I think sells him short since he does possess his > own special kind of bravery. So we're back to characteristics again > in some capacity or another. > > But (and here's where I get into the real part of my discussion) I do > not think existing characteristics are the biggest factor. I believe > (with no evidence from canon) that the Sorting Hat makes it decisions > based largely on another option: potential for growth (I would benefit > from being with the brave). Clearly several characters have been made > better for the House they ended up in. Neville is more assertive. > -Luke ~ I believe the Sorting Hat knows what qualities a person possesses even if the person himself does not know they exist. Such would be the case with Neville and bravery. I believe that is how people are sorted - based on qualities they have - be it now or in the future. As for Neville, many people do not think he should be in Gryffindor. He is often viewed to be a "scaredy-cat". I believe he deserves much more credit. I believe that he is very brave, but we do not see it because of what happened to Neville's parents. I think that the attack on Neville's parents has had a profound impact on Neville (ex. Moody's class during the unforgivable curses lesson)and that is why he is not particularly brave at the moment. I think that as Neville gets older, his bravery will indeed show itself. - Elizabeth (who feels very bad for Neville) From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Fri Aug 3 05:29:33 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 05:29:33 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Sirius / Snape's Task In-Reply-To: <9kcnc1+u780@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kdcrt+tlr4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23507 First of all, thanks to Luke and DinaYS I understand a logical reason for Dumbledore wanting the Weasley parents to know about Sirius. They are essentially acting as Harry's guardians since Sirius cannot fully assume that position yet, and should know everything. I also liked the idea that Molly is giving him a mother's love, thanks DinaYS. As silly as I may sound, that had not occurred to me! Thanks for pointing that out. Luke wrote: 'I think McGonagall probably would eventually be accepting of the fact that Sirius Black is innocent. She does seem like the type to be very stubborn, but she also seems to have a deep-seated enough respect of Dumbledore to believe what he says. However, I'm not sure this would be the best way to go about it even if he did intend to tell McGonagall. It'd probably be better to sit her down and talk to her, not just spring it on her.' The McGonagall thing still bothers me however. The reason being that this woman is deputy headmistress. I don't think she'd react unduly. She has *tremendous* faith in Dumbledore. When Harry's name came out of the goblet of fire her reaction was: '"Dumbledore, you know perfectly well you did not make a mistake!" said Professor McGonagall angrily. "Really, what nonsense! Harry could not have crossed the line himself, and as Professor Dumbledore believes that he did not persuade an older student to do it for him, I'm sure that should be good enough for everybody else!" She shot a very angry look at Professor Snape.' This is a very significant passage, I think, in terms of the Sirius part. I think she would accept Sirius' presence without question. Perhaps she might be shocked at first, like Molly, but I think she would realize that if Dumbledore believed it, then it must be OK. The quote above shows that McGonagall is more ready to believe Dumbledore, without questioning him, than Snape is, which is why I think it's very strange that he let Snape see Sirius and not McGonagall who seems to accept Dumbledore's word at face value. But then, Luke also wrote: 'Obviously, Dumbledore's most pressing need at that moment was to get Severus and Sirius to acknowledge each other so this 'intrusion' by McGonagall would not be acceptable.' This is brilliant! Dumbledore's pressing need is to get Snape and Sirius to meet as allies, but why? Perhaps this is the key to predicting what Snape's task actually is. Forgive me if this has been used as evidence, but I haven't seen it before. Perhaps Sirius' task of alerting the old crowd and whatever Snape's task is overlap, and for that reason they *must* meet at that time (it is Dumbledore's pressing need, after all). I really like this, but I still have no idea what Snape's task could be that makes it so urgent for him to see Sirius. If even McGonagall who is officially Dumbledore's second, and who has unswerving faith in him, couldn't be trusted by Dumbledore to see Sirius, there must be something *very* urgent about Sirius and Snape meeting as allies. So to anyone who is more creative than me, it would be interesting to hear your ideas as to why these two needed to meet and why they needed to shake hands at that moment in time. As I look over this post, I realize this Snape/Sirius thing must have been very obvious to everyone else, but it was Luke's phrase 'most pressing need' that made it clear to me. Thanks, Hella From catlady at wicca.net Fri Aug 3 06:52:47 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:52:47 -0700 Subject: Lots and Lots of Topics Message-ID: <3B6A4A3F.44777AEC@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23508 First: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE someone save the transcript of the chat this Sunday???? I have to go to a birthday party! Tim will get angry at me if I don't go... THE HOGWARTS MAGIC QUILL buedefixe quoted JKR: > "In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects > the birth of a magical child, and writes his or her > name down in a large parchment book. Every year > Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls > to the people who are turning 11." -Scholastic Chat, February 2000 I suppose JKR does it that way because birth is a magically powerful moment, but it would solve a LOT of problems, including allowing Hermione to be the youngest, if the quill instead detected the presence of children who should be starting at Hogwarts this coming September. Muggle-born magic children who moved to Britain (probably with their parents) after being born is another problem it would solve. HARRY IN BORGIN AND BURKE'S SHOP Amber?'s chapter summary said: > Not wanting Draco to see him, he jumps in a black > cabinet and hides. One thing that struck me at first reading and continues to strike me is just how damn LUCKY Harry was that it wasn't a carnivorous cabinet, or the home of a dangerous monster... I mean, I doubt that the opal necklace was the only cursed object in that shop! THE UTHOR & YGRAINE THEORY OF HARRY'S PARENTAGE Catherine wrote: > There's just one major flaw to this argument - > Harry is the spitting image of James, apart from the eyes. Tom Riddle also has a strong resemblance to Harry. Maybe he fathered BOTH James AND Harry. Personally, I don't believe it -- I doubt that Riddle had much interest in sex and that Voldemort had any interest in sex (just power, cruelty, and immortality). Furthermore, it would be messy literature for all Harry's emotionalizing about James to go to waste. But every time I use the names Tom and Harry in the same sentence, I wonder: where's Dick? "FIVE YEARS AGO" Demelza wrote: > I think Bill was at Hogwarts "five years ago" > on Gringotts business. Namely, Bill went to > Hogwarts to pick up the Sorceror's (Philosopher's) Stone I like your idea, which is totally new to me, but please explain why the Stone was transported from Hogwarts to Gringotts maybe a year before Harry started school, and then transported BACK from Gringotts to Hogwarts by Hagrid just before Harry started school? QUESTIONS FOR GOD, I MEAN JKR: > I am working on a letter to JKR. I need to ask > her the status of the new trading cards (how much > input did she give and should those spells and > facts be considered canon). Anyone want to suggest > any other good questions to ask? In addition to all the good questions that other people suggested: My first question is What does 'warlock' mean in the Potterverse? Note to people in the Muggleverse: 'warlock' doesn't mean 'oathbreaker' in the Potterverse, or Ernie MacMillan wouldn't describe himself as descended from nine generations of witches and warlocks and Quidditch wouldn't be called 'the noble sport of warlocks'. That genealogy sounds as if 'warlock' was a synonym for 'wizard' but it seems terribly redundant to have two words that mean exactly the same, so I like the theory that 'warlock' means a Member of Parliament, I mean a Representative to the Wizards' Council, Warlocks' Convocation, International [Con]Federation of Wizards/Warlocks, and so on. Perkins (Arthur's subordinate) being 'an old warlock' could mean that he was a Representative who got voted out, so his old friends got him a civil service job where he is protected by his friends from ever getting a bad performance review. Also, it could be linked to 'warlock' meaning 'oathbreaker' by reference to campaign promises. Which leads to second question: are International Confederation/Federation of Wizards/Warlocks (Steve's Lexicon lists the three names JKR used) different organizations or different names for the same organization? I prefer the latter. FINDING A LOST, STRAYED, OR STOLEN HARRY Andrea wrote: > As far as how Dumbledore would know Harry's > at the Burrow, surely there are some > HP-universe equivalents to the basic scrying spell? It seems to me that there can't be any very good people-finding spells in the Potterverse, or Sirius would have been found by MoM while hiding in the cave behind Hogsmeade. THE MARAUDER'S MAP prefectmarcus wrote: > I have always assumed that only people who are > moving, pacing, jumping, struggling, etc. show up. > If you are simply sitting or sleeping, you don't show up. If Snape or McGonagall or Filch or Mrs Norris was sitting still for the purpose of lying in wait to catch students out after curfew, the Marauders would need to know about it. Elizabeth smurfs wrote: > I have been wondering if, since the map could do > that, could its members (James and Sirius especially) > talk to Harry if he tried? Could they hold a > conversation through the map? There is a good story on ffnet in which that happens. I disremember the title, but the author is Doctor Cornelius. DRACO MALFOY Rachelle Elliott wrote: > One speculation I have is that Draco will find > someone to unconditionally love him and break > away from the dark side (his parents and friends), > foil Voldermorts plan, and save innocent lives? In my fic, the 'someone' is Snape. toomanyideas wrote: > the thought that Narcissa may well have some > VEELA in her has crossed my mind. But alas, > that would make Draco NOT of PURE BLOOD. I think both Narcissa and Lucius might have some Veela in them (in my fic, they are first cousins; their common grandmother is half-Veela). I think that Veela 'blood' is still counted as 'pure wizarding blood' because Veelas are magical beings. That would work better if the quote was 'pure magic blood'... VOLDEMORT CHRONOLOGY Amy Z wrote: > and Rita wrote: >> Apparently 1969. If it had been in USA, (snip) >> it was really 1968. > Why 1969 or 1968? 1968 because of the large number of Bad Things that happened (in USA Muggleverse) that year. 1969 because, in October 1981 Dumbledore says: "We've had precious little to celebrate for eleven years." By rounding off, one could say 11 years when referring to a period that had begun in January 1970, but I count The Bad Years (maybe someday historians will overcome their fear enough to call it The Voldemort Years) as beginning with the first murder or other atrocity over which The Dark Mark was posted, and it would take more than one appearance of The Dark Mark before people got afraid it could happen to THEM. THE SORTING HAT prefectmarcus wrote: > We know that each of the Hogwarts founders put > something of themselves into the hat. That, I > believe, is the key. Imagine if you will, each > student being brought before the four founders. The problem I have with this is that old Salazar Slytherin wouldn't accept Muggle-born students into his House, but there MUST be Muggle-born students whose personalities fit best into Slytherin House, and it wouldn't be good for the other Houses to be forced to take those inappropriate students... Which leads to WIZARDING SECRECY Possible out from the above: I think Slytherin objected to admitting Muggle-born students because he thought they'd be security risks: Binns said: "He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy." MAYBE since the Muggle-born students had already been informed about the wizarding world before the Sorting, he would 'make the best of a bad situation' and take them and try to educate them into being loyal to the wizarding world... In that same passage, Binns says: "They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." Persecution, of which the witches and wizards were sufficiently afraid that some emigrated to the New World in hope of getting away from it (QTA) and eventually they made the wizarding world secret from the Muggle world. When they teach their children that Muggle Persecution of Witches in the Middle Ages was Useless because of the Flame-Freezing Charm, and that the reason why magic is kept secret from Muggles is so that Muggles won't pester them for magical help, that is just propaganda! Which leads to: Lord Eadric (SCA?) wrote: > the world of wizards was completely separated > from the muggle world with the Statute of > Wizarding Secrecy of 1692. That's what the textbooks say, but them wizards sure have a lot of lies in their textbooks ... the wizarding world is NOT entirely separated from the Muggle world, as there are witches and wizards with Muggle parents whom they spend holidays with (e.g. Hermione) and witches and wizards with Muggle spouses (e.g. Seamus Finneagan's mother). OLD STYLE DATES > At the time of the changeover Britain, because > of the inaccurate calendar, had fallen 11 days > behind the rest of Europe, so in 1752 11 days > were removed altogether in order to bring the > country into line. If each geographical region in the wizarding world stayed on the calendar that its local Muggles had used in 1692, then in wizarding England each day would have a different date than in wizarding Scotland and France, as well as different from Muggle England. This surely would have been mentioned in reference to students going home for Christmas holiday: if their holiday was on Old Style, Hermione could have said something about it being kind of useless to go home two weeks after her parents had celebrated Christmas and all her Muggle friends had already gone back to their schools. She could have used it as her excuse in the following: PoA: "Both Ron and Hermione had decided to remain at Hogwarts [for Christmas], and though Ron said it was because he couldn't stand two weeks with Percy, and Hermione insisted she needed to use the library, Harry wasn't fooled; they were doing it to keep him company, and he was very grateful." Or if Hogwarts, being in Scotland, was New Style, then the Weasley parents (living in Devon, and Arthur working in London) would celebrate Christmas two weeks later than their school children's holiday. ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L echerous A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From NicMitUK at aol.com Fri Aug 3 07:20:30 2001 From: NicMitUK at aol.com (Nick Mitchell) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 07:20:30 -0000 Subject: RPG Trading Card Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9kdjbu+mcjs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23509 Hi all. Trading Card game arrived this morning by DHL. Just opening the boxes now. Will provide a full report on the Starter Pack and Boaster Packs soon. Expect to see the cards in shops soon. Nick. (over the pond in England) From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 3 07:36:43 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 07:36:43 -0000 Subject: This will probably get me kicked off the list, but ..... Message-ID: <9kdkab+8mck@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23510 I've been musing over the "lets-all-be-nice-to-one-another-and-never- say-anything-that-could-possibly-even-remotely-offend-someone-even- the-littlest-tiniest-bit" thing. Frankly, if this is a forum for GROWN UPS, why is it that so many people lack the ability to converse in a grown up fashion about things? When I asked about HP and the Bible, I was asking for an adult discussion about whether or not people actually see the HP books as leading children, adults, anyone into "bad" things. (I don't see Paganism as a bad thing, but that because I am a Pagan). I was quite quickly and fiercely shot down because "we had this discussion before and it created a Holy War". Well, here's the part that'll probably get me kicked off. I am going to say what I think. If someone is offended by something I say, then they are quite free to address me, by email, on the list, whatever. I would not intentionally slander anyone by saying something like (gods forgive me for even thinking these words) "hey you niggers, chinks, gooks, greaseballs, slimy brits, stupid yanks, your opinions don't count for sh*t inthe scheme of things so shut the hell up"**. And I'm pretty sure most people on here wouldn't do that either. But if we can't say things like, "IMO, Harry is leading children down a path toward Satanism and evil deeds because he sneaks out of bed and VOldie actually is the devil and he acts like Hitler." then what the hell is the point of free speech (granted this only applies to US folk)? I think it is very important to have healthy, sometimes heated discussions in our lives. It keeps us thinking, it keeps us considering other possibilities. I understand most people think perception is reality, and for the most part, it is. But if you are offended by the slightest little reference to religion or to gays or to politics or by someone having a different opinion than you, then really, you need to open your mind a little and realize that there are so many different views on life and just because it isn't the same as your view, doesn't mean it is wrong, bad, unholy, whatever. Ok, Yup, I'm ready for the emails from the moderators, from the list folk, from my list-elf, from whoever wants to yell at me for voicing my opinion and telling you what was on my mind. Michelle :) ** I don't actually use these words ... I don't like these words ... I don't like it when other people use these words. The point of using them was that no one is intentionally trying to hurt anyone, if someone gets hurt or is offended, I'm pretty sure no one meant to do it and they are quite sorry, but really, if you are going to be offended by everything ..... p.s. I think I'm more a part of REST than LOON. Gods bless the big picture :) p.p.s. Yeah, I know you all hate me now. Well, maybe not hate, but you sure don't like me. I'm ok with that, I still respect you all. :) From mediaphen at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 07:42:09 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 07:42:09 -0000 Subject: FAQF Workings of the Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <9kc8nk+d0pc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kdkkh+b9os@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23511 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > How do the dots work? > > I have always thought that the dots only show what might be of > interest to mischief makers. To wit, a teacher safely in his or her > sleeping quarters is not a threat, but a student or ghost wandering > the halls who might stumble upon them is. If the map showed the > location of everybody in the castle all the time, it would be > information overload. But if it only showed those out-and-about, it > would have meaning. > > Marcus Absolutely my idea! Think of the map as an AutoCAD drawing, with different layers (for instance, roads is one layer, houses another and height coordinates a third). These layers can be switched on and off depending on what you're currently working with. With this analogy, MM has different layers for teachers/students at sleep, those out-and-about (as stated by Marcus), house-elves at work, caretakers roaming the corridors etc. The map's default layer settings are to show those who can interrupt the mischief-making, which is all fine by the Marauders (and later, the Trio), but if you at some point needed to find someone specific, say Dobby, you could just switch off all layers but the House-elf layer, and Bob's yer uncle! (Hey, I just did a >10-liner "Me too!") Mr Smith, ground design engineer From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 07:47:19 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 00:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) In-Reply-To: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010803074719.38046.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23512 --- mcandrew at bigpond.com wrote: > > 5) Pronunciation: I don't find this much of a > problem generally, but > the name 'Nagini' usually causes a hiccup when > reading aloud to my > son. I've settled on pronouncing it with an > elongated 'a', a > soft 'g' and the accent on the second syllable. > Would you agree? > > This is the only topic I have an popinion on so I snipped everything else. When I read the story to my kids I pronounce it thus "Na-gi-nie". Going to the Harry Potter Pronounciation guide ( http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/books/pronunciation/play.htm ) it says it is pronounced "nag-EEN-ee". So I guess you wouls have it pretty right if not completely correct. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From NicMitUK at aol.com Fri Aug 3 08:06:43 2001 From: NicMitUK at aol.com (Nick Mitchell) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 08:06:43 -0000 Subject: RPG Trading Card Game In-Reply-To: <9kdjbu+mcjs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kdm2j+gps0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23513 Hi all. Details of the Trading Card Game are available at: www.thps.co.uk Nick. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 06:29:53 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 02:29:53 -0400 Subject: First task - Analysis out the wazoo - Q-cup filk Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23514 Elizabeth: >Also, in GoF - The First Task. Why didn't Harry just use the Summoning Charm to Summon the Golden Egg? Jami: >I think it's because the point of the task is to face the dragon and get >the >egg. Using Accio to get the egg ignores the first part of the task. This fits in with something else I've noticed about the tasks, which is that even though we're privy to conversations with Bagman etc., I think there are rules that we don't know about. E.g., surely the champions were told beforehand what we only learn later from Ron, that they weren't supposed to damage the other eggs. Re: analyzing to a ridiculous extent, the way I've just been doing: I hated it when fellow grad students did this too :groans in unison with Ebony:, though I don't recall having a clever term for it. But here, I for one am doing it with lightness and a wink that says "I know this is putting way more weight on these books than is warranted, but it's fun!" That can be hard to communicate via e-mail. For me, this kind of nitpicking is an intellectual and creative exercise like doing crossword puzzles. There is little point to much of it except the sheer pleasure of stretching one's brain. "And that's okay!" says Stuart Smalley. LOL at the Quidditch filk, Martin! Amy Z who wants to know what Jenny's whopper of a grammatical error was ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- "This is a =girls'= bathroom," she said, eyeing Ron and Harry suspiciously. "=They're= not girls." "No," Hermione agreed. -HP and the Chamber of Secrets ---------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 08:51:20 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 08:51:20 -0000 Subject: Lots and Lots of Topics In-Reply-To: <3B6A4A3F.44777AEC@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9kdom8+2ao3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23515 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > Tom Riddle also has a strong resemblance to Harry. Maybe he fathered > BOTH James AND Harry. Personally, I don't believe it -- I doubt that > Riddle had much interest in sex and that Voldemort had any interest in > sex (just power, cruelty, and immortality). Furthermore, it would be > messy literature for all Harry's emotionalizing about James to go to > waste. But every time I use the names Tom and Harry in the same > sentence, I wonder: where's Dick? "Strong" resemblance? True, they both had black hair. They both are slender built. However the exact quote from CoS is "We even look something alike." How did this become "Strong"? Harry is the spitting image of his father. It even confuses him. I don't recall anyone ever confusing Tom Riddle with his father, do you? > THE MARAUDER'S MAP > prefectmarcus wrote: > > I have always assumed that only people who are > > moving, pacing, jumping, struggling, etc. show up. > > If you are simply sitting or sleeping, you don't show up. > > If Snape or McGonagall or Filch or Mrs Norris was sitting still for the > purpose of lying in wait to catch students out after curfew, the > Marauders would need to know about it. If you are out and about, you show up. If you are in the hallways or close to them, you show up. If you are in your living quarters, you don't show up. > THE SORTING HAT > prefectmarcus wrote: > > We know that each of the Hogwarts founders put > > something of themselves into the hat. That, I > > believe, is the key. Imagine if you will, each > > student being brought before the four founders. > > The problem I have with this is that old Salazar Slytherin wouldn't > accept Muggle-born students into his House, but there MUST be > Muggle-born students whose personalities fit best into Slytherin House, > and it wouldn't be good for the other Houses to be forced to take those > inappropriate students... You quoted it yourself. He "disliked" non-purebloods. But if they were ambitious enough, I am guessing he'd let them in. The biggest muggle hater of them all, Voldemort, was a half blood. You don't think Slytherin and Voldy wouldn't have gotten along? > Lord Eadric (SCA?) wrote: > > the world of wizards was completely separated > > from the muggle world with the Statute of > > Wizarding Secrecy of 1692. > > That's what the textbooks say, but them wizards sure have a lot of lies > in their textbooks ... the wizarding world is NOT entirely separated > from the Muggle world, as there are witches and wizards with Muggle > parents whom they spend holidays with (e.g. Hermione) and witches and > wizards with Muggle spouses (e.g. Seamus Finneagan's mother). You are 100% correct. So what is the question? Good post Marcus From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Aug 3 09:07:07 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 05:07:07 -0400 Subject: Questions for JKR Message-ID: <5AB634BD.34701F9A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23516 Steve Vander Ark wrote: >I am working on a letter to JKR. I need to ask her the status of the >new trading cards (how much input did she give and should those >spells and facts be considered canon). Anyone want to suggest any >other good questions to ask? No, I won't ask about the gleam or who >falls in love with who or any of those kinds of things. But factual >details that don't give anything away, sure. So what shall I ask her? > >BTW, according to the trading cards, Flitwick's first name is Filius. >So do I put that in the Lexicon? I'm unsure... > The more I think about this, the more convinced I become that the best course is not to ask anything other than about the trading cards. First, I expect Jo gets loads of letters, and in replying will prioritise children - I assume you do not intend to stoop to short trouser subterfuge here. The less work involved in replying, the more likely she is to reply. Second, I want to suggest that the most interesting questions are those which will be answered in the forthcoming books. The most effective, and by far the most enjoyable, way to find out the answers we want is to read OOP and its successors. I would hate to think that my curiosity about Grindelwald's middle name might distract JKR from doing what she likes best and gives us the most fun. I can struggle on with life, just, without knowing whether Hermione is slightly older or slightly younger than Harry. If JKR chooses to drop into a future book that she is now celebrating her 16th, or whatever, great. If not, it's because other stuff of more importance and enjoyment is taking up precious authorial time and page space - even better. The FAQs raise the intriguing possibility that JKR has responded to some of the questions out in cyberspace in GOF already. Perhaps one of our number is an agent of Christopher Little (her agent), monitoring all we say. Trust no one. CONSTANT VIGILANCE! On the trading cards, I predict that you will get a reply from Chris Little along the lines of: Ms Rowling reviews all Harry Potter material produced by WB and does her best to ensure that it is consistent with the Harry Potter series of books. However, no guarantees can be given that anything in the Trading Cards or any other merchandise can be regarded as being written by her. If you are lucky you might get confirmation that names not mentioned in the books are JKR's own. If I were Chris Little (or, rather, one of his staff), I would draft something of the sort and run it past Jo. If you are very lucky, she will convert it to first person, express her loud and long amusement that anything she writes could be called 'canon', and sign it herself. But whatever answer you get, and whether or not you get the following sentence, you should probably assume it is true: Ms Rowling reserves the right in future books to override or contradict any inferences that may be made from WB merchandise. As far as the lexicon is concerned, can't you just attribute WB material appropriately? And omit it from any more elaborate deductive systems - I find it hard to believe that Trading Card material will shed light on, say, the missing 24 hours? David, guessing that Steve has figured all this out already __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk Fri Aug 3 09:37:43 2001 From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:37:43 -0000 Subject: This will probably get me kicked off the list, but ..... In-Reply-To: <9kdkab+8mck@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kdrd7+4r3k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23517 You seem to have misunderstood exactly why the HP and the Bible topic has been deemed off-limits. > if we can't say things like, "IMO, Harry is leading children down a > path toward Satanism and evil deeds because he sneaks out of bed and > VOldie actually is the devil and he acts like Hitler." then what the > hell is the point of free speech (granted this only applies to US > folk)? We can say things like this anytime we like if we have a point to make. The reason that the descussion was boarded up is that people were not sticking to the facts of the matter and everything was degrading into personal sniping and insults. We have had many debates on list, often which have become intense (just look at the shipping), but the religeon debate, along with some political remarks back during the US presidential election became more than just debates, descended into battles of pointless insults which made the list a less than pleasant place to be. Emotions run high when dealing with some topics and unfortunately, as everyone on the list is human, this can lead to material being posted which have no place here. It is not because anyone on the list wants to deny anybody else their opinion, but because the subjects stir up such bad feeling and resentment. I doubt anyone will be wanting to remove you from the list for expressing your annoyance with the system, but do please read back through the archives to the relevent debates so that you actually know why what happened did happen, rather than guessing at a situation, which turned out to be wrong. Dai --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > I've been musing over the "lets-all-be-nice-to-one-another-and- never- > say-anything-that-could-possibly-even-remotely-offend-someone-even- > the-littlest-tiniest-bit" thing. > > Frankly, if this is a forum for GROWN UPS, why is it that so many > people lack the ability to converse in a grown up fashion about > things? > > When I asked about HP and the Bible, I was asking for an adult > discussion about whether or not people actually see the HP books as > leading children, adults, anyone into "bad" things. (I don't see > Paganism as a bad thing, but that because I am a Pagan). I was quite > quickly and fiercely shot down because "we had this discussion before > and it created a Holy War". > > Well, here's the part that'll probably get me kicked off. I am going > to say what I think. If someone is offended by something I say, then > they are quite free to address me, by email, on the list, whatever. > I would not intentionally slander anyone by saying something like > (gods forgive me for even thinking these words) "hey you niggers, > chinks, gooks, greaseballs, slimy brits, stupid yanks, your opinions > don't count for sh*t inthe scheme of things so shut the hell up"**. > And I'm pretty sure most people on here wouldn't do that either. But > if we can't say things like, "IMO, Harry is leading children down a > path toward Satanism and evil deeds because he sneaks out of bed and > VOldie actually is the devil and he acts like Hitler." then what the > hell is the point of free speech (granted this only applies to US > folk)? > > I think it is very important to have healthy, sometimes heated > discussions in our lives. It keeps us thinking, it keeps us > considering other possibilities. I understand most people think > perception is reality, and for the most part, it is. But if you are > offended by the slightest little reference to religion or to gays or > to politics or by someone having a different opinion than you, then > really, you need to open your mind a little and realize that there > are so many different views on life and just because it isn't the > same as your view, doesn't mean it is wrong, bad, unholy, whatever. > > Ok, Yup, I'm ready for the emails from the moderators, from the list > folk, from my list-elf, from whoever wants to yell at me for voicing > my opinion and telling you what was on my mind. > > Michelle :) > > ** I don't actually use these words ... I don't like these words ... > I don't like it when other people use these words. The point of > using them was that no one is intentionally trying to hurt anyone, if > someone gets hurt or is offended, I'm pretty sure no one meant to do > it and they are quite sorry, but really, if you are going to be > offended by everything ..... > > p.s. I think I'm more a part of REST than LOON. Gods bless the big > picture :) > > p.p.s. Yeah, I know you all hate me now. Well, maybe not hate, but > you sure don't like me. I'm ok with that, I still respect you all. :) From neilward at dircon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 09:48:01 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:48:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] This will probably get me kicked off the list, but ..... References: <9kdkab+8mck@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007c01c11c01$62e7fbc0$063770c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 23518 Michelle Barnett said: <> also making reference to her recent 'HP and The Bible' post and expanding on the need for healthy, heated debates. *** That's the point, Michelle. It is precisely because some people can't behave sensibly in discussing contentious topics, that the rest of us have to suffer a few restrictions. The overall objective is not to stifle opinion, but to avoid dragging the list into flaming territory, and we can only draw on past experiences to identify potential triggers. Very few topics are banned from discussion on HPfGU, and those that are can be found in our Netiquette Tips file. Penny has said, on several occasions, that we do not ban topics lightly. The previous discussion with Richard Abanes' about his book led to some of the most disruptive, insulting and thoughtless posting we've seen, so you might understand the swift action of the moderators to avoid a repeat performance of that. In general, the moderators, and many of the members, of this list will always stress the need to "be nice to each other" and to respect the views and beliefs of others. That does not prevent people from expressing an opinion, but it does remind them to choose their words carefully. Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia Mechanimagus Moderator From mediaphen at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 11:35:24 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 11:35:24 -0000 Subject: FILK: Check the FAQ:s just one more time Message-ID: <9ke29s+ar2q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23519 CHECK THE FAQ:S JUST ONE MORE TIME (To the tune of "Hit Me Baby One More Time" by Max Martin, made famous by Britney Spears) (Worried, insecure list member): Oh, Harry P-list, how am I supposed to post When I have a new theory? Will they bark at me, or wish I was decomposed? The whole thing is so scary Religion, homosex, fanfiction what is proper, oh I need to know, now, because Your L.O.O.N:iness nitpicking me (and I) I do digress more than meant to be (meant to be) On my hot topics will you start to whine? Give me a siiiiiign (Annoyed older list members): Check the FAQ:s just one more time! (Worried, insecure list member): Oh, Harry P-list, there's so much I need to ask Is Ron missing a brother? Why didn't Harry say "Accio" in the first task? Is McG Crookshanks' mother? Show me how you want it to be Tell me, list-elves, cos I need to know, now, because Your L.O.O.N:iness nitpicking me (and I) I do digress more than meant to be (meant to be) On my hot topics will you start to whine? Give me a siiiiiign Annoyed older list members: Check the FAQ:s just one more time! (repeat and fade) _________________________________________________________________ Martin, involunteerily(sp?) part of W.I.L.M.A. (Worried Insecure List Members' Association) From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 11:43:59 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 11:43:59 -0000 Subject: Some foreshadowing to Hermione's death?? Message-ID: <9ke2pv+902h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23520 Ok, my sincerest apologies if this subject has come up but I was thinking to myself this morning about several instances of possible foreshadowing to Hermione's death: The most obvious one is in GoF when Harry rescues her from the lake and she says, (Loose quote here guys, bear with me....) "You did it on your own! You figured it out!" I think this is showing how Harry is slowly weaning himself off of Hermione's assistance and eventually, when she dies(?) it'll be ok because he is self- sufficient?? Ok, that sounded better in my head, but oh well... I believe a similar incident occurs when Hermione is stunned in CoS... When she gets "unfrozen" doesn't she get excited that he figured it out on his own?? Ok, sorry guys, but I just woke up 10 min ago and i am still in a sort of stupor... LOL Anyway.... Thoughts? Comments? Ravenous shoot-downs? Go ahead!! Meg Rose From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 3 12:06:48 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 12:06:48 -0000 Subject: Snape and Sirius' tasks and how they overlap. In-Reply-To: <9kdcrt+tlr4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ke44o+4uff@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23521 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote: Perhaps Sirius' task of alerting the old crowd and whatever Snape's task is overlap, and for that reason they *must* meet at that time (it is Dumbledore's pressing need, after all). I really like this, >but I still have no idea what Snape's task could be that makes it so urgent for him to see Sirius. If even McGonagall who is officially Dumbledore's second, and who has unswerving faith in him, couldn't be trusted by > Dumbledore to see Sirius, there must be something *very* urgent about Sirius and Snape meeting as allies. So to anyone who is more creative than me, it would be interesting to hear your ideas as to why these two needed to meet and why they needed to shake hands at that moment in time. You see I think that Snape belongs to the old crowd that is referred to. I think the old crowd is the Order of the Phoenix and I believe than once Snape turned spy he joined that group. Snape's mission, I don't think it'll be to go back to Voldemort as himself I believe it'll be to go as Barty Crouch jnr. I think he had to die for a reason and maybe Voldemort does not know what has happned to him yet. Anyone have any thoughts along the same lines? Sofie, becoming a Snape fan the longer I stay on this list! From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 12:08:20 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 12:08:20 -0000 Subject: This will probably get me kicked off the list, but ..... In-Reply-To: <9kdkab+8mck@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ke47k+n6vm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23522 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > I've been musing over the "lets-all-be-nice-to-one-another-and- never- > say-anything-that-could-possibly-even-remotely-offend-someone-even- > the-littlest-tiniest-bit" thing. Uhmm.. whose words are this? Where are you getting this "even remotely" or "little tiniest bit"? Please have the grace to look at this issue in context. Nobody on this list fears disagreement or even controversy. We have however tactfully ended one raging debate because it descended into something more than a debate-- it was a veritable flame war. we feel the issue has been kicked to death, and in the process a few participants almost kicked to death with it. Many of us who care about this forum feared that it was being endangered and that too many good people were being driven away by the tenor of a few individuals. > Frankly, if this is a forum for GROWN UPS, why is it that so many > people lack the ability to converse in a grown up fashion about > things? I think sometimes the most "grown up" thing one can do is say "It is time to drop the subject." > When I asked about HP and the Bible, I was asking for an adult > discussion about whether or not people actually see the HP books as > leading children, adults, anyone into "bad" things. (I don't see > Paganism as a bad thing, but that because I am a Pagan). I was quite quickly and fiercely shot down because "we had this discussion before > and it created a Holy War". You were "shot down"? "Quickly and fiercely" even? Or was your proposal simply met with opposition? Are you not perhaps taking this a little personally? Is it not okay for people to have a different point of view or experience than yours? > Well, here's the part that'll probably get me kicked off. I am going > to say what I think. If someone is offended by something I say, then > they are quite free to address me, by email, on the list, whatever. This is just my unimportant opinion I guess, but I am personally just a little tired of the "I will say whatever I please no matter how it affects others!" approach to the "freedom of speech" issue. It feels awfully adolescent. You have never offended me, please let me make that clear. However I do wish though that people could sometimes think about what they are saying before they say it, and maybe even value other people's feelings a little bit more than this. > I think it is very important to have healthy, sometimes heated > discussions in our lives. It keeps us thinking, it keeps us > considering other possibilities. I understand most people think > perception is reality, and for the most part, it is. But if you are > offended by the slightest little reference to religion or to gays or > to politics or by someone having a different opinion than you, then > really, you need to open your mind a little and realize that there > are so many different views on life and just because it isn't the > same as your view, doesn't mean it is wrong, bad, unholy, whatever. I agree with what you are saying, and I think they are many lively and even heated discussions on this list. I think you are making the situation sound much, much worse than it is. Once again, look at the context. tabling this ONE topic was an extreme, uncommon, and exceptional step for the group to make, and it was in response to a rather extreme and exceptional situation. > Ok, Yup, I'm ready for the emails from the moderators, from the list > folk, from my list-elf, from whoever wants to yell at me for voicing > my opinion and telling you what was on my mind. Once again, why is it not okay for anyone to disagree with you? Why is disagreeing with you automatically "yelling" at you? And where did you get this idea that anyone would throw you off the list? If you reserve the right to say what is on your mind, don't you think you should at least show some respect when others decide to say what is on their mind as well? Michelle, I think you have a lot to offer and I respect your point of view. I have to say though that it would be a lot easier for me to discuss this matter with you if you could give me the same credit and respect that you appear to expect to receive. Sincerely, Suzanne From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 3 12:16:23 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 12:16:23 -0000 Subject: Some foreshadowing to Hermione's death?? In-Reply-To: <9ke2pv+902h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ke4mn+le97@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23523 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > Ok, my sincerest apologies if this subject has come up but I was > thinking to myself this morning about several instances of possible > foreshadowing to Hermione's death: > > The most obvious one is in GoF when Harry rescues her from the lake > and she says, (Loose quote here guys, bear with me....) "You did it > on your own! You figured it out!" I think this is showing how Harry > is slowly weaning himself off of Hermione's assistance and > eventually, when she dies(?) it'll be ok because he is self- > sufficient?? Ok, that sounded better in my head, but oh well... > > I believe a similar incident occurs when Hermione is stunned in > CoS... When she gets "unfrozen" doesn't she get excited that he > figured it out on his own?? Ok first I'd like to say, 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! She can't kill Hermione!' Right now I'm calm. I think you are probably right in the respect that Harry is becoming less reliant on Hermione however I don't believe that JKR will kill off any of the trio. And if she does it is most likely to be Ron. Am I correct in thinking that the goddess that is Joanne rowling as said at some point that Ron was a planned charcter from the start of the idea and that he has a purpose will Hermione is actually a self-insertion of herself. Since Ron hasn't actually done much spectaculor yet other than be side-kick to Harry I think that he will die to save Harry. If any of those three die at all. And, I don't know about the rest of you, but if JKR does kill off any of our fab three I will personally be hounding her until she re-writes it so they don't die. Sofie, who will be forced to retreat from all the world if Harry, Hermione, Ron, Sirius or Remus dies.(I know I don't ask a lot but i will be devastated if any of them do die!) From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 3 12:41:30 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie Campbell) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 12:41:30 -0000 Subject: SHIP: R/H, D/H, H/H In-Reply-To: <4CCB22ED.4998AA0A.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9ke65q+3ear@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23524 Ron and Hermione: The obvious teasing between the two leads me to believe that Ron and Hermione will go on one date in OotP but will decide that they are too good friends for it to work. I think Ron will want the relationship to work more than Hermione, who will have her sights on someone else. This pairing won't last as friends becoming couples can be extremly arkward when you are 15! Draco and Hermione: I believe that there is already an attraction on Draco's part here, he seemed to enjoy that slap far too much! But seriously he did warn her to get away from the DE's at the cup and that to me says that maybe he doesn't fancy her yet but he doesn't wish her any harm. If these two did get together I think Herm will be the one who causes Draco to remove himself from under his father's thumb and she will be the thing that gets him to turn good. Once in arelationship it will be passionate but stormy- possibly in the sixth book. This is another one that isn't forever though I can see it lasting the length of a book. They are too different for it to work once the danger levels rise. Harry and Hermione: Now if this does happen this one is going to be forever. Harry and Hermione have great respect for one another and I think that'll cause it to last.Soul Mates. I'd say seventh book near the end for this one. Perhaps Harry will save Hermione's life or vice versa. This will provoke great jealousy from Ron as he'll not understand why this can work while he and Hermione didn't. I wish them and you can gurantee that Rita skeeter will be banned from the wedding! Sofie, who has been out with the friend, the opposite and is waiting for the soul mate! From margdean at erols.com Fri Aug 3 12:22:25 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 08:22:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall and Sirius / Snape's Task References: <9kdcrt+tlr4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6A9781.E2695986@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23525 hfakhro at nyc.rr.com wrote: > If even McGonagall who is officially Dumbledore's second, > and who has unswerving faith in him, couldn't be trusted by > Dumbledore to see Sirius, there must be something *very* urgent about > Sirius and Snape meeting as allies. I agree with this, but it also occurs to me that there may be another factor besides Snape's immediate "need to know" about Sirius. Isn't it clear that there is very little that Snape values more than Dumbledore's trust? What must it mean to him to receive this particular confidence =before= McGonagall (who is officially Dumbledore's second, who has unswerving faith in him, etc. etc.)? I think this may be a bit of very subtle psychology on Dumbledore's part. (And he can always bring McGonagall up to speed later if he needs to.) --Margaret Dean From chl0525 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 13:17:27 2001 From: chl0525 at hotmail.com (chl0525 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 13:17:27 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (Parting of the Ways) In-Reply-To: <9kcr29+643s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ke897+2tta@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23526 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., DinaYS at a... wrote: > Okay i am not leaving that whole thing in and i am not going to > splice because all of it was really good. > > * i think molly is really emotionally and magically strong as many > women who are mothers, esp. mothers of a lot of children and esp. > mothers of a lot of boys are incredible and will usually get what > they want (i teach kindergarten, i deal with a lot of moms) > > She is going to have to know in order to protect Harry, as will > Arabella Figg and a handful of other people. Obvious Albus will only > tell people who can handle the news about sirius. A mothers love > protected him in his first year and it would not surprise me if a > mothers love continued to protect him. (okay i went and saw my best > friend's 13 hour old baby today, so i am a little amzed by babies and > moms right now) > > *McGonagall will eventually be told, but not until absolutely > necessary. IF she is not told, i think with her obvious > intellegence, knowledge of transfiguration and being an animagnus, i > think she will figure it out. > > Albus might be letting her figure it out (after all he sent her to go > get the dog in the pumpkin patch) He seems to like giving people the > empowerment of knowledge and learning (Mirror of Erised). > > Okay bye, Dina I don't know why I feel this way, there is certainly no evidence in canon to support this, but I got the feeling that at the point where Dumbledoor sent McG out to get the large black dog from the pumpkin patch, McG already knew who the dog really was. I guess I just can't imagine strong, intelligent McG being supriesd about anything. Ad as I remember it (and this could be wrong, I have not read the books in about 6 months) Dumbledoor took the news that Sirius was innocent very well. He did not seem verry suprised to me. OK nitpickers, have at it. But be kind as I am not L.O.O.N but more of the R.E.S.T variaty. Michelle From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Fri Aug 3 13:59:25 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:59:25 -0400 Subject: Marauder's Map Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05350@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 23527 There have been a lot of good topics opened up, and as usual I'll be chiming in on some of them. This time I'll try to do it one by one. I looked through PoA and GoF for references to the Marauder's Map, to see if there's anything that might help resolve the question of how it includes dots for so many people. When F&G first give Harry the map, it's the Hogsmeade weekend before Christmas break. All third-years and above are allowed to leave the school, and most have done so. As we've seen at Halloween, those who choose not to go for some reason and the second and first years tend to confine themselves to their common rooms/dorms or the library. Hence, few people are actually moving round the school. ("The Marauder's Map") As for Pettigrew's appearance or lack thereof on the map, Ron is already gone when Harry consults it on this occasion, and Scabbers disappears before Harry uses it next. That would be the occasion of _another_ Hogsmeade weekend, again with few people left in the school, and again, he meets Ron after Ron has left with the group. So by the time Harry looks at the map, there aren't many people on it. It is on this occasion that he gets caught by Snape and ultimately loses the map to Lupin. ("Snape's Grudge") Since Lupin has no need to sneak around, we can probably conclude that the map stayed dormant or at least was not in constant use until the night of the Shrieking Shack. Lupin explains specifically that he was "watching the map carefully" because he had a feeling they would sneak out. Exams are over at this point and again, it is evening and few students are outside their common rooms. Here we learn that Hagrid's hut itself is not part of the map, but the grounds between the castle, the hut, and the Willow are. We also can infer that he only sees one Harry and one Hermione, though he doesn't specifically state this. (Ch. 17-19) At the end of the year, Harry gets the map back from Lupin, but they're going home; no need to consult it again. In GoF, Harry only uses the map once: to sneak to the Prefect's Bathroom and home. Again, it's late at night, most of the castle is asleep. Here, though the map is activated, Moody/Crouch captures it, sees his own name on a dot standing where he is standing, and has excellent motivation to keep Harry from regaining it. He tells Harry that Crouch is gone, which of course is a lie. ("The Egg and the Eye") We learn in "Veritaserum" from Crouch that he watched the map for over a week, waiting for his father. However, when his father arrives, it is on the edge of the forbidden forest. This also provides confirmation that the FF is on the edges of the map (or else that the map adjusts itself to show only those areas one wants to check--again, reading intention). He uses the map to locate his father, and for all we know, never uses it again. Now, there are some general observations that I think are reasonable given all this information. One: Dumbledore and Snape now know about the Map; it's no longer going to be much good to Harry, even if he somehow gets it back (and as far as we know, he doesn't). Two: Nearly every time it is in use, there are either few people in the castle itself or at least outside of their common rooms and/or dormitories. When there might be (as Crouch's vigil for his father), the person is looking outside the castle for some reason. Furthermore, no structure other than the castle itself is mapped inside. Nothing inside Hagrid's hut, no mention of the greenhouses, the pitch, etc. This doesn't resolve every question about the map, still. How does it manage to cram so much information onto a single piece of parchment? Perhaps it is like the "maps" of dungeons in many computer adventure games, where the screen only reveals the area immediately surrounding the player? If that is so, though, how is it able to show a part of the castle or grounds where the user is not standing? (Eg: Harry sees Snape in his office, but how far away is that from the staircase where he got stuck?) As for the twins not noticing, who says they used the map on any occasion when Ron was not where he was supposed to be? I think it truly does come down to intention. MWPP must have thought hard about the kinds of things they were going to use the map to do, and they chose the spells that would create the artefact. In the case of Hermione's time-turner, I do not believe they ever anticipated having two of the same person in the halls or on the grounds, so they did not use any spells that detect time-altering devices. Likewise, I think they decided they didn't need to know who was in the dorms or common rooms, because those people were not a direct threat to any prank they wanted to pull for which they needed access to the corridors. Therefore, the map is not ensorceled to show people in their own common rooms or dorms. [Note: this part of the theory falls down if they ever wanted to access the common rooms or dorms for the purpose of pulling off a prank. But in the absence of evidence, one could reasonably say they never crossed that line.] MWPP must also have known that a person moving on the far side, three floors above, was of little threat to someone on this side, three floors below, and may have specified the map's behaviour to ignore such a person. It's like a computer. It can only apply those programs which have been entered into it. If the map comes into contact with something it doesn't know how to interpret, it doesn't interpret. I'm interested to know which spells were powerful enough to allow the map to recognize students who were not enrolled during any part of MWPP's tenure as students. Gwendolyn Grace From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Fri Aug 3 14:14:37 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:14:37 -0400 Subject: The Sorting Process Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05351@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 23528 Luke had a great post about the nature of the Sorting Hat and how we must consider the choices of the original founders along with all those great distinctions between characteristics, aspirations, priorities, morality, and choice that Dave provided when he started this thread. I think it is a combination of all these factors. That is, the hat looks at things from the perspectives of the founders, but _considers_ all five other aspects from the POV of the candidate as well. The trick is finding the right fit--the house in which character, aspiration, priority, morality, choice, and the founder's opinions all converge. I also think it's possible for a student's will to override the hat, and that's part of the basis of my fanfic (which those of you who read fanfic can find at www.Schnoogle.com--advertisement off). Truly, I think the hat might Sort someone who is a pure Gryffindor: her character is that of a Gryffindor, she aspires to be a Gryffindor, her priorities are those of a Gryffindor, she has the moral fibre of a Gryffindor, and she wishes to be in Gryffindor; and Godric's "brain" in the Sorting Hat would agree, no one else would object. That's an easy choice--the hat barely touches the kid before the decision is made. But what about someone who is more conflicted? Say there's a child whose character best resembles that of a Hufflepuff, but who aspires to be a Gryffindor, whose priorities will align best with Ravenclaw, whose moral fibre is more Slytherin-ish in nature, who _thinks_ he will be lucky if he winds up as a Hufflepuff, but who really _wants_ to be a Gryffindor. Yikes! I mean, this would take a while to sort out. The founders (i.e., the hat) may decide that a middle-road policy is best--when pressed, he will be Ravenclaw in his priorities, so that's where he goes. OR, depending on how strongly the child desires to be among the Gryffs, the hat may bend to that willpower. It really is up to the child, I think. How best to choose a fit? I think these are the kids who take a long time with the hat on, like Neville. There's conflict in every person, but the hat conscientiously tries to make the best decision. Personally, I think the hat was goading Harry with the whole Slytherin thing to see what he'd do with it. There have been some good scenes in fanfics where certain characters argue with the hat to be put into a particular house, and I think that has a lot to do with it. A child who will stand up for the house of choice probably deserves a shot there. Neville probably expected to be Hufflepuff, but something inside him might have _demanded_ that he go to Gryffindor. Gwendolyn Grace From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Fri Aug 3 14:28:27 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:28:27 -0400 Subject: Getting rid of McGonagall (GoF) Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05352@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 23529 I have to say I really agree with all the superb reasons people have mentioned for telling Molly at the time that Dumbledore reveals Sirius to her. There are two things about McGonagall that I don't believe have been discussed, though one point has already been mentioned. The first is that (as I think either Amanda or Amy said) Minerva may already know about Sirius. Dumbledore has had a whole year to fill her in on what happened in Prisoner of Azkaban. She may not need to be shown that he is an Animagus because she may already know. Poppy doesn't necessarily need to know, and as someone said, the best way to keep a secret is to tell no one unless you have to do. Along with this (while we're recapping things that have been said), I agree that D's priority is focused on getting Sirius and Severus to recognize that neither one is an ogre. Here's the new one that I think people have ignored: What if he sends Poppy and Minerva away not to protect Sirius, but to protect Severus? (Now, personally, I think not, because I think again, Minerva knows everything, including the original deal with Snape being a spy.) I truly, deeply believe that Severus is going back to the Death Eaters. It is too important to have a source of information from inside, and besides, if he does not, he will definitively and finally reveal that he has left Voldemort. If he does return, he can at least _try_ to convince them his intentions in no way jeopardized the DE's. However, that's not the point I'm making in this post. If that is his task, to return and worm his way back into Voldy's good graces (and mind, I in NO WAY mean to imply this will be easy), then it may well be important that as few people as possible know that that's the plan. Dumbledore needs Molly to understand what's happening so she can fill Arthur in later. Bill just needs to give him a heads up, but Molly will have all the skinny later so they can form their own plans as to how to work through the ministry without tipping their hands there. Minerva, if she doesn't know already, may be protected from knowing about Snape's mission because it leaves her in a position of plausible deniability. She can honestly say she doesn't know of any ties to the DE's. Again, Poppy is in the unenviable position of not being very key to any of these power plays. I believe Dumbledore sends her out for her own protection. The more any of the staff know about aiding and abetting fugitives, unofficial and indeed specifically unsanctioned espionage, and conspiracy against the Ministry, the better. Gwendolyn Grace From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Aug 3 14:32:06 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:32:06 -0400 Subject: Same year, Draco, Sorting Hat, Knowledge, Trying to mend my carni vorous habit Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23530 Oh my, I look like Rita! :) Am sorry to be a day late on these replies, but yesterday was my harry's 2nd birthday, and the computer stayed OFF until he went to sleep, after his birthday cake - at 10pm. Birthday party will be this sunday (I *will* miss chat. Sorry!) First is an admittedly off topic thing about merchandise, but I wanted to reach the most people about this - Amazon has the collector's edition of SS at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/glance/-/outlet/043920352 X/ref%3Ddel%5F195525%5F7/002-0899231-9137620 marked down to $37.50, which is 50% off. 1. Same year: there is nothing in canon which makes it mandatory that James & Lily are in the same year. I'm working on a redo of Emma set in MWPP times, and in that, they are not the same year. But then again, I'm one of those who thinks that Lucius Malfoy is at least 10 years older than MWPP (hi Gwen!) and a contemporary of Arthur Weasley. > "Meg Rose" wrote: > > "Sofie Campbell" wrote: > > > > > > Am I the only person who thinks Lily was a Ravenclaw (though I > > > made her a Gryffindor in my fic)? > > > > Yes - this would make sense, only because James and Lily were both > > head bog/girl, right? Don't they have to be in different houses?? > > If James was in Gryffindor, then it would only make sense for Lily > > to be in something different, hence Ravenclaw... > 2. David wrote: > However, when we consider what Draco must think of Hermione, > the picture is rather more interesting. She, who is inferior > to him in the respects he considers important, continually > beats him; his response is to try harder, yet he still fails. > By GOF, her psychological mastery is nearly complete as she > can reduce him by saying 'Hello, Professor Moody', and > affects not to care about Rita Skeeter's article (but see > below). He also discovers at the ball that she can look > stunning. I think it is entirely possible that Draco's > desire to win may well take the form of attempted conquest of > her affections, though as his character stands, that would be > based on lust and the desire for mastery. If he then fails > (as surely he must), he will resort either to violence and > hatred or to a comprehensive re-evaluation of his own > character and possible repentance. (This would be a little > bit Darcy-like, BTW.) > > Has any fanfic explored this view of Draco? : jumps up and down and waves hand in air. Two, actually. My novel-length WIP, Surfeit of Curses, explores a relationship (FRIENDSHIP! NO ROMANCE!) between Draco & Hermione, and is about to move further into the Shake Draco's Life To The Very Foundations stage - you can find it at schnoogle.com, more specifically, at http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Heidi/Surfeit_Of_Curses/. And my homage to Pride & Prejudice, which features Hermione as Elizabeth, Draco as Darcy and Snape as Lady Catherine, is at http://www.astronomytower.org/authorLinks/Heidi/. The P&P one was inspired by learning that JKR is a huge Jane Austen fan, and wondering whether she was going to try a Darcy with Draco - of course, I admit that the huge difference is that Darcy was given good principles but left to follow them in pride and conceit, whereas whatever principles Draco's learned at home, I think we can all agree that at least a lot of them were not "good" - quite the opposite, in fact. Jenny wrote: > Draco has been blindly, for > the most part, agreeing with his father's views. Draco, too, > needs to > learn to stand on his own. Am in complete agreement with you...and I do hope it'll happen. I know some people have hypothesized that JKR will *show* someone turning away from evil by describing how Snape left the DE's, but I think it would be more powerful and interesting to show someone like Draco turning from evil (and as a coutnerpart, showing someone presumed to be good, or at least neutral, turning to evil (No! not percy! please!) 3. Marcus - LOVE the sorting hat dialogue. Any interest in *captioning* it and submitting it to TheDarkArts, part of FictionAlley (http://www.thedarkarts.org/submit.html) 4.Gwen wrote: > > Again, Poppy is in the unenviable position of not being very > key to any of > these power plays. I believe Dumbledore sends her out for her own > protection. The more any of the staff know about aiding and abetting > fugitives, unofficial and indeed specifically unsanctioned > espionage, and > conspiracy against the Ministry, the better. Exactly - it's possible that in future books, the DEs will strive to get information any way they can (esp. if some of their potential spies in Hogwarts (i.e. Draco?) aren't as useful at giving information as they had hoped) and may resort to torture to uncover it - of course, for someone like Poppy, torturing her to get info about people's whereabouts may be as productive as torturing Longbottoms to find out where Voldemort was - i.e. if someone does not know, they will not be able to tell you what you want to hear. 5. List Carnivores - I probably fall as much into LOON territory as I do into REST - I pretty try to much know canon backwards & forwards (although I do slip up on occasion when my books aren't handy, confusing when Charlie met harry with when Charlie's *friends* met Harry for a recent fanfic) but the main reason I don't post as much as I used to here is not at all related to fear of being jumped on and splinched - it's because I want other listies who may not've gone through a subject nine and three quarters times to have the enjoyment of running through the issues without an oldbie jumping in and saying This is this, and that is that. Which is why I usually only jump up on draco-topics :) (see next post from me). It's a weird coincidence that this week, the mailing list I've been on the longest, Tongue in the Mail for the band Crowded House (and variations thereof), turned 10, and is engaging in some major soul-searching about the future of the list itself. I truly hope that when we celebrate *our* 10th, we will have the same spirit of intellectual curiousity that so many listies here have - to puzzle through the books' mysteries in enjoyment and with Dumbledorian consideration (Dorian? As in portrait of...? Maybe that's why he only looks like he's in his late 80s!). From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Fri Aug 3 14:41:52 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:41:52 -0400 Subject: Birthdays and calendars Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05353@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 23531 I had a theory about this issue, but before I even got it mostly formed, Angelina Johnson and the twins drove a truck through it. But here it is, just for amusement: My theory has nothing to do with a different calendar (Julian/Gregorian, lunar, Chinese, or other), but is that the Hogwarts system is not based on the School Year, but the Regular Calendar. Take Harry's birth year: 1980. All children BORN in 1980 get a letter in the summer of 1991. They all start school on September 1, 1991, regardless of when they turn 11 in the calendar year. So Ron turned 11 in March of 1991, but had to wait until September to go to school. The problem is the twins and Angelina. Angelina is in the same school year as they are, but she turns 17 in October of 1994. But the twins don't turn 17 until the following April, which would be 1995. So there goes that theory. I can't help feeling it's neither as fixed as we've made it seem here nor as arbitrary as "well, I just need it that way." Then again, Halloween is on a Saturday every year, and the full moons are whenever Jo needs them. So maybe it is arbitrary. My only other thought is that the system accounts somehow for skipping grades or being held back in elementary school, but as Hogwarts doesn't seem to care about elementary school, maybe it's moot. Perhaps it has a wider range of age? I know, we've documented that Jo says they get letters in the year when they turn 11, but Harry's letter actually came before his birthday. It was Vernon who prevented him from answering until Hagrid showed up on his birthday. If it's the summer of the academic year before they're going to turn 11.... Oh, forget it. I'm just going round in circles on this. I say, it's whatever's most convenient. When the kid's ready to go, he gets a letter. Gwendolyn Grace From tabouli at unite.com.au Fri Aug 3 14:43:34 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:43:34 +1000 Subject: HP and Spectacles, Sorting Hat, housism, miscellaneous Message-ID: <003c01c11c2b$b398edc0$ef92aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 23532 Michelle: > If I look at the big picture ... I think Harry is helping us in ways we never really even think about. By being a cool kid with glasses, he is helping the vision of the younger generations. When I read this comment a couple of days ago, I hopped up and down like Pigwidgeon, because a few months ago I actually found an article on the web which actually documents evidence that Harry has single-handedly overturned the stigma of wearing glasses, and kids these days *beg* for glasses, and go into the frame shops demanding round ones like Harry, and... and... And I can't find it! AARG! I did think that I copied and pasted it in my HP article collection somewhere, but alas. Katrina: > Yes, it's quite a bit too much. The boy gets the letter of acceptance from Hogwarts, and they say he better be ready, so he gets all this Harry Potter stuff. When Harry Potter got his acceptance letter, did he run out and get a Gryffindor backpack or a Hogwarts glue stick? I think not. All the same, I think there's a rich vein of comedy to be mined there. Myself, I regard the explosion of HP merchandise with positive glee. Never, in all ma born days, have I seen anything like the HP phenomenon. Sure, the media have tried. We've all seen the trumpeting billboards and saturation advertising and product placement for things like The Phantom Menace and Pokemon and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle and you name it, but it always seemed to me that the actual creation of the product was rolling to the beat of the marketing drum (and we should put in a pretty girl as a Love Interest, and advertise her wardrobe on all the commercial channels, and a cute monster so we can release fluffy toys, and...). Whereas in HP, *children* actually drummed up the interest themselves, from a mere *book*, through *word of mouth*!! All those marketing executives (apart from those as Warner, sigh) must be crying themselves to sleep! Amanda: > Well, actually, Troll Booger Glue is an actual bottle of glue, with a troll head festooned with Harry as the lid. The whole head rotates to open the bottle, with a standard Elmer's-glue type mechanism, and the glue comes out a nostril. It was so absolutely revolting that I bought one. I chuckle evilly. O well, at least those Warner marketing types must be having fun. This is quite creative. When the PoA film is released, I'm campaigning for a transformer-style Scabbers to Peter Pettigrove soft toy. You know, have a toy rat with a slit in his stomach, out of which you can pull/invert a Peter Pettigrove glove puppet! Yeah... We could do a whole series of animagi. A cat to McGonagall, a Sirius to black dog... though Rita to beetle could be tricky. I also note that I wasn't the first to come up with the HP tarot idea from a link someone sent on OT. Never mind. Catherine: > As Harry is the only person who should be there who is magical, they probably assumed that it was him - either that or Dobby grassed on him. Actually, in Australian schoolyard slang, we say to "dob" on someone, or "dob" someone in, making his name terribly appropriate if this is what happened! David: >I hesitate to add this one, but what is the nature of the sorting process at Hogwarts? We have had endless discussions about why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw, and whether Slytherins have to be evil, but I don't feel the interplay between characteristics (I am brave), aspirations (I want to be brave), priorities (I think bravery is the most important thing), morality (bravery is good) and choice (I want to be with the brave) has really been explored. How does the pesky thing work? Does the range of four possibilities say anything about the nature of humanity as a whole?< Great post, David... I've always argued that the Sorting Hat (a stroke of genius, to my mind) identifies people's VALUES, not their actual qualities. It's entirely possible to be a coward and yet value bravery above ambition, diligence, and intellect. For example, I have the greatest admiration for assertiveness, mostly *because* I dearly wish I were more assertive! In terms of the various options David lists above, I think a lot of these can neatly be encapsulated in the values argument: you aspire to the things you value, believe them to be important, place a high priority on them, choose in accordance with them and so on. The subject of why Hermione is in Gryffindor not Ravenclaw has no doubt been plumbed in excessive depth, but I think the following line from SS/PS is an illustration of my argument in lurid neon lights: "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and - oh Harry - be *careful*!" (p208 - haha, I have the books on hand this time). The whole SPEW thing is another illustration of her courage in fighting injustice in the face of ridicule and disinterest. Very principled, our Hermione. As for Harry being in Slytherin, sure he's a bit free 'n' easy about rules and speaks Parseltongue, but what exactly is he so ambitious about? Give him a task and he's determined, sure, but to my mind ambition suggests something a bit more abstract: the desire to achieve greatness in general, not succeed at something particular which has come up and needs doing. What is Harry's ambition? Avenging his parents? Becoming Seeker for the English Quidditch team?? This longing for "what you value" reminds me of the Wizard of Oz (if I only had the nerve/brains/heart) contrast with HP articles I read on Salon (?) a while ago... apparently WoO is palatable to many HP detractors because it's sanitised family entertainment, despite its magical fraternity. Fff. Lord Eadric (!): > Those of you with Quaker ancestors will know that they didn't name the months but always called them "the First Month" and so on. Therefore, prior to 1752 "the First Month" in Quaker records means March and after 1752 it became "the Third Month". Obligatory Chinese culture insert: the Chinese, numerical bunch that they are, number not only their months, but their days... Monday is Day 1, and so on up to Sunday, which is Day Sky/Heaven/Sun (depending on your dialect and era and preference). Which leads me to an OT musing: why is it that in so many languages we have a seven day week with Sunday marked out, e.g. Dimanche after six days ending in -di, etc.? I can only assume that people wanted to signpost their lunar cycles into quarters a bit more pointedly. >From: "Sofie Campbell" >I'm considering starting a petition for an important character to be >in a house besides Gryffindor (who isn't evil and who doesn't die). >Does anyone else feel like that? >Sofie Yes, yes, yes! I'll be the first to sign! I had a bit of a housism rant a month ago or so, which prompted a detailed explanation of why JKR is demonstrating to us that Hufflepuffs are actually fine people. Good explanation, point taken, but responding to a somewhat different point to the one I was making, which is, roughly, the same as yours: why do practically all the significant characters have to be in Gryffindor??? The "Harry's in Gryffindor" argument only washes so much laundry for me. Amanda: > Because if Harry had to stay still, and Mama Dragon saw her egg zooming toward this easy target, he'd have been toast before it got there. *She* can fly, too.... Good point, and one that uses a metaphor I'm fond of but eternally confused by... where does this "toast" = dead, defeated, etc. saying come from? Sounds vaguely 80s American teen cult movie or something. Though there was once a rather amusing peanut butter ad in Australia where a piece of bread was sneering at all the inferior brands this man was trying to spread on it (No, not that one! It's too oily, you'll ruin my complexion!), and towards the end, when it had licked off the right brand with relish, asks the man what he's having for dinner. He picks up the insulting slice of bread and glowers at it. "TOAST", he says ominously... But I digress. Amber: > I must say that after reading the books, I wondered if the color of magic is green. Actually, Terry Pratchett argues that it's a sort of fluorescent greenish-purple. Must say, I envy Harry and Lily their eyes: I've always wanted green eyes myself. As a child I used to sit staring at green things hoping the colour would permeate my eyes by osmosis, but alas (they're sort of hazel, greenish at best). I suppose I could buy tinted contacts, but it's not the same. Ah well. Nowadays I just sit scouring human eye colour inheritance texts trying to figure out how to maximise my chance of green-eyed offspring, should I ever sprout any. Speaking of US/UK/Australia differences, there's a website celebrating green eyes where I posted a message along the lines of the above, albeit in more strident terms: how deeply I was grieved by my defiantly hazel eyes, etc., with what I thought was UNMISTAKEABLE irony. To my dismay, I started getting all these worried Americans sending me messages telling me that I had serious self-esteem issues and did I want to talk about it, and I shouldn't let perceived failings in my appearance undermine my life! One was particularly persistent, said he was shocked to see what I had written, had I sought counselling, etc.! I wrote back and pointed out that I was *joking*, and he kept at me, saying that he'd reread what I'd written and was truly concerned, maybe you claim you're joking but it's so obvious that you're trying to cover up serious feelings of inadequacy with a frantic attempt at self-ridicule, etc.etc... yeeeeurch! said my inner Australian cynic. I blocked his address to get rid of him! Wonder what colour James Potter's eyes were (she says, hastily returning to the topic of HP). If they were blue, I know just the man for the part (he's even a children's fantasy novel author who likes HP!). Friend of mine, lives in Adelaide. Here's his website: I think there's even a photo of him on it so you can see for yourself. Thin, unruly black hair, glasses, about the right age... www.users.bigpond.com/andrew.chapman [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tabouli at unite.com.au Fri Aug 3 14:52:12 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:52:12 +1000 Subject: HP and Spectacles, Sorting Hat, housism, miscellaneous Message-ID: <005801c11c2b$e1c2dc60$ef92aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 23533 Michelle: > If I look at the big picture ... I think Harry is helping us in ways we never really even think about. By being a cool kid with glasses, he is helping the vision of the younger generations. When I read this comment a couple of days ago, I hopped up and down like Pigwidgeon, because a few months ago I actually found an article on the web which actually documents evidence that Harry has single-handedly overturned the stigma of wearing glasses, and kids these days *beg* for glasses, and go into the frame shops demanding round ones like Harry, and... and... And I can't find it! AARG! I did think that I copied and pasted it in my HP article collection somewhere, but alas. Katrina: > Yes, it's quite a bit too much. The boy gets the letter of acceptance from Hogwarts, and they say he better be ready, so he gets all this Harry Potter stuff. When Harry Potter got his acceptance letter, did he run out and get a Gryffindor backpack or a Hogwarts glue stick? I think not. All the same, I think there's a rich vein of comedy to be mined there. Myself, I regard the explosion of HP merchandise with positive glee. Never, in all ma born days, have I seen anything like the HP phenomenon. Sure, the media have tried. We've all seen the trumpeting billboards and saturation advertising and product placement for things like The Phantom Menace and Pokemon and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle and you name it, but it always seemed to me that the actual creation of the product was rolling to the beat of the marketing drum (and we should put in a pretty girl as a Love Interest, and advertise her wardrobe on all the commercial channels, and a cute monster so we can release fluffy toys, and...). Whereas in HP, *children* actually drummed up the interest themselves, from a mere *book*, through *word of mouth*!! All those marketing executives (apart from those as Warner, sigh) must be crying themselves to sleep! Amanda: > Well, actually, Troll Booger Glue is an actual bottle of glue, with a troll head festooned with Harry as the lid. The whole head rotates to open the bottle, with a standard Elmer's-glue type mechanism, and the glue comes out a nostril. It was so absolutely revolting that I bought one. I chuckle evilly. O well, at least those Warner marketing types must be having fun. This is quite creative. When the PoA film is released, I'm campaigning for a transformer-style Scabbers to Peter Pettigrove soft toy. You know, have a toy rat with a slit in his stomach, out of which you can pull/invert a Peter Pettigrove glove puppet! Yeah... We could do a whole series of animagi. A cat to McGonagall, a Sirius to black dog... though Rita to beetle could be tricky. I also note that I wasn't the first to come up with the HP tarot idea from a link someone sent on OT. Never mind. Catherine: > As Harry is the only person who should be there who is magical, they probably assumed that it was him - either that or Dobby grassed on him. Actually, in Australian schoolyard slang, we say to "dob" on someone, or "dob" someone in, making his name terribly appropriate if this is what happened! David: >I hesitate to add this one, but what is the nature of the sorting process at Hogwarts? We have had endless discussions about why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw, and whether Slytherins have to be evil, but I don't feel the interplay between characteristics (I am brave), aspirations (I want to be brave), priorities (I think bravery is the most important thing), morality (bravery is good) and choice (I want to be with the brave) has really been explored. How does the pesky thing work? Does the range of four possibilities say anything about the nature of humanity as a whole?< Great post, David... I've always argued that the Sorting Hat (a stroke of genius, to my mind) identifies people's VALUES, not their actual qualities. It's entirely possible to be a coward and yet value bravery above ambition, diligence, and intellect. For example, I have the greatest admiration for assertiveness, mostly *because* I dearly wish I were more assertive! In terms of the various options David lists above, I think a lot of these can neatly be encapsulated in the values argument: you aspire to the things you value, believe them to be important, place a high priority on them, choose in accordance with them and so on. The subject of why Hermione is in Gryffindor not Ravenclaw has no doubt been plumbed in excessive depth, but I think the following line from SS/PS is an illustration of my argument in lurid neon lights: "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and - oh Harry - be *careful*!" (p208 - haha, I have the books on hand this time). The whole SPEW thing is another illustration of her courage in fighting injustice in the face of ridicule and disinterest. Very principled, our Hermione. As for Harry being in Slytherin, sure he's a bit free 'n' easy about rules and speaks Parseltongue, but what exactly is he so ambitious about? Give him a task and he's determined, sure, but to my mind ambition suggests something a bit more abstract: the desire to achieve greatness in general, not succeed at something particular which has come up and needs doing. What is Harry's ambition? Avenging his parents? Becoming Seeker for the English Quidditch team?? This longing for "what you value" reminds me of the Wizard of Oz (if I only had the nerve/brains/heart) contrast with HP articles I read on Salon (?) a while ago... apparently WoO is palatable to many HP detractors because it's sanitised family entertainment, despite its magical fraternity. Fff. Lord Eadric (!): > Those of you with Quaker ancestors will know that they didn't name the months but always called them "the First Month" and so on. Therefore, prior to 1752 "the First Month" in Quaker records means March and after 1752 it became "the Third Month". Obligatory Chinese culture insert: the Chinese, numerical bunch that they are, number not only their months, but their days... Monday is Day 1, and so on up to Sunday, which is Day Sky/Heaven/Sun (depending on your dialect and era and preference). Which leads me to an OT musing: why is it that in so many languages we have a seven day week with Sunday marked out, e.g. Dimanche after six days ending in -di, etc.? I can only assume that people wanted to signpost their lunar cycles into quarters a bit more pointedly. >From: "Sofie Campbell" >I'm considering starting a petition for an important character to be >in a house besides Gryffindor (who isn't evil and who doesn't die). >Does anyone else feel like that? >Sofie Yes, yes, yes! I'll be the first to sign! I had a bit of a housism rant a month ago or so, which prompted a detailed explanation of why JKR is demonstrating to us that Hufflepuffs are actually fine people. Good explanation, point taken, but responding to a somewhat different point to the one I was making, which is, roughly, the same as yours: why do practically all the significant characters have to be in Gryffindor??? The "Harry's in Gryffindor" argument only washes so much laundry for me. Amanda: > Because if Harry had to stay still, and Mama Dragon saw her egg zooming toward this easy target, he'd have been toast before it got there. *She* can fly, too.... Good point, and one that uses a metaphor I'm fond of but eternally confused by... where does this "toast" = dead, defeated, etc. saying come from? Sounds vaguely 80s American teen cult movie or something. Though there was once a rather amusing peanut butter ad in Australia where a piece of bread was sneering at all the inferior brands this man was trying to spread on it (No, not that one! It's too oily, you'll ruin my complexion!), and towards the end, when it had licked off the right brand with relish, asks the man what he's having for dinner. He picks up the insulting slice of bread and glowers at it. "TOAST", he says ominously... But I digress. Amber: > I must say that after reading the books, I wondered if the color of magic is green. Actually, Terry Pratchett argues that it's a sort of fluorescent greenish-purple. Must say, I envy Harry and Lily their eyes: I've always wanted green eyes myself. As a child I used to sit staring at green things hoping the colour would permeate my eyes by osmosis, but alas (they're sort of hazel, greenish at best). I suppose I could buy tinted contacts, but it's not the same. Ah well. Nowadays I just sit scouring human eye colour inheritance texts trying to figure out how to maximise my chance of green-eyed offspring, should I ever sprout any. Speaking of US/UK/Australia differences, there's a website celebrating green eyes where I posted a message along the lines of the above, albeit in more strident terms: how deeply I was grieved by my defiantly hazel eyes, etc., with what I thought was UNMISTAKEABLE irony. To my dismay, I started getting all these worried Americans sending me messages telling me that I had serious self-esteem issues and did I want to talk about it, and I shouldn't let perceived failings in my appearance undermine my life! One was particularly persistent, said he was shocked to see what I had written, had I sought counselling, etc.! I wrote back and pointed out that I was *joking*, and he kept at me, saying that he'd reread what I'd written and was truly concerned, maybe you claim you're joking but it's so obvious that you're trying to cover up serious feelings of inadequacy with a frantic attempt at self-ridicule, etc.etc... yeeeeurch! said my inner Australian cynic. I blocked his address to get rid of him! Wonder what colour James Potter's eyes were (she says, hastily returning to the topic of HP). If they were blue, I know just the man for the part (he's even a children's fantasy novel author who likes HP!). Friend of mine, lives in Adelaide. Here's his website: I think there's even a photo of him on it so you can see for yourself. Thin, unruly black hair, glasses, about the right age... www.users.bigpond.com/andrew.chapman Hmm. After checking the photo on the site myself, I have to admit the likeness is minimal in that particular picture, but in real life, truly folks he is... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vderark at bccs.org Fri Aug 3 14:50:20 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 14:50:20 -0000 Subject: reminiscing...those wonderful Abanes days In-Reply-To: <9kdkab+8mck@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kednc+87lh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23534 Hey... As I was reading the latest round of posts concerning the banning of the religion topic, it occurred to me that those who weren't here when Richard Abanes joined this group really should pause a minute and consider. You have no idea what it was like. I know, I know, you've been in flame wars before and you are a grown up and are perfectly capable of holding a lively arguement without letting things get out of hand. We all are (or would like to think so). But sort of like when Sirius told Harry about Voldemort's Dark Time in GF, you don't know what it was like and you wouldn't understand. I'm not being condescending here. That's just the truth. The one quality that really struck me about Abanes is that he is a brilliant wordsmith. He knows how to twist words to say what he wants them to say and he does it so well that it's almost impossible to come back with any sort of reply. The discussion offended a great many people and there was a lot of anger and resentment around here. He had come on the pretext of honest, open, debate, but quickly demonstrated that he was only interested in using his gift of words to antagonize and irritate and hurt and wound and maybe even show these silly, misguided Harry Potter fans what idiots they are. And you know what? He was so damn annoying and twisting and impossible to talk to reasonably that he did bring out the worst in some of our number, which just proved his point, as far as he was concerned. However, he himself was one of the worst of the lot but simply refused to realize that and admit that he wasn't right on all counts. Very tellingly, when Heidi clearly pointed out a flagrant misquoting of JKR in his book, he never responded. He was very good at keeping the attention of things he thought he could win at with his twisting words. I do not say this lightly, but as a Christian, he reminds me of the Devil, coming under the banner of truth and twisting words to pit people against each other. That is the Devil's modus operendi. Now why do I say all this? You have to understand, those of you who weren't part of that Dark Time, that those of us who were here then DON'T WANT TO GO BACK THERE AGAIN. It wasn't just a sort of nasty flame thing. We've had that too, believe me, and it's been dealt with and those subjects are just fine. But that particular subject is just not a good one for this group in light of our history. Please understand that and accept it. We are good people here. I LOVE the folks on this list. But I know our limits. Please accept that. From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Fri Aug 3 14:51:38 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:51:38 -0400 Subject: Contest #10 results (please REPLY to OT-Chatter) Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05354@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 23535 > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:26:48 -0000 > From: joym999 at aol.com > Subject: HP4GU Contest #10 results > > Only three people -- Rucha, Catlady and Julie -- felt creative this > week, but they all have submitted great suggestions. Julie, in > particular, has offered enough fun and games to keep any bunch of HP > fans amused for days. Thanks very much to our three creative > people. A new contest will be posted tomorrow. > I just want to take a moment to personally and publicly thank Rucha, Catlady, and Julie for their responses to this contest. I also want to thank Joywitch for putting this contest on her schedule so accommodatingly! I passed the question on to Joywitch when a friend of mine asked me. I thought immediately that it was the kind of thing HP4GU would love to talk about. These are all great ideas and with you ladies' permission, I will pass them on to my friend, who wanted some ideas for a situation in a role-playing game. That's the second part of this post: I do want to talk a little more about this topic, but as it is no longer a contest, the thread should move to OT-Chatter. Anyone who is interested, please reply there. Catlady mentioned trying to figure out how to simulate magic at the faire. And I guess I should have been clearer in my post to Joywitch, because the contest didn't make it clear: in the situation where these games and ideas will be put to (virtual) "use," the hosts of the faire DO have access to magic. They have to be careful, just like wizards, and no, they are not wizards, but they are NOT LIMITED to what is technologically possible. In other words, they could make broomsticks fly, if they wanted. So, if you had access to magic and could overhaul a Renaissance Pleasure Faire into a Harry Potter themed faire, what would you do? Please join me on OT-Chatter to discuss this. Thanks! Gwendolyn Grace From joym999 at aol.com Fri Aug 3 15:21:01 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 15:21:01 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (Parting of the Ways) In-Reply-To: <9ke897+2tta@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kefgt+qc72@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23536 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., chl0525 at h... wrote: > I don't know why I feel this way, there is certainly no evidence in > canon to support this, but I got the feeling that at the point where > Dumbledoor sent McG out to get the large black dog from the pumpkin > patch, McG already knew who the dog really was. I guess I just can't > imagine strong, intelligent McG being supriesd about anything. Ad as I > remember it (and this could be wrong, I have not read the books in > about 6 months) Dumbledoor took the news that Sirius was innocent very > well. He did not seem verry suprised to me. > > OK nitpickers, have at it. But be kind as I am not L.O.O.N but more of > the R.E.S.T variaty. > Well, actually, Michelle, I am as LOONy as they get and I quite agree with you. I also get the impression that Dumbledore, and to a lesser extent McGonagall, are aware of everything that goes on -- and certainly they are much more aware to events than WE are, at this point. It would make sense that Dumbledore has explained the events that occurred at the end of PoA to McGonagall. It would also make sense that when Dumbledore goes to talk to Sirius (in PoA) he had already had his suspicions that maybe Sirius wasnt guilty and that something else was going on. Besides which, when you are 150 years old, there is probably not much that can surprise you any more. --Joywitch From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 15:45:07 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 15:45:07 -0000 Subject: Some foreshadowing to Hermione's death?? In-Reply-To: <9ke4mn+le97@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kegu3+qohq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23537 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie Campbell" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > > Ok, my sincerest apologies if this subject has come up but I was > > thinking to myself this morning about several instances of possible > > foreshadowing to Hermione's death: > > > > The most obvious one is in GoF when Harry rescues her from the lake > > and she says, (Loose quote here guys, bear with me....) "You did it > > on your own! You figured it out!" I think this is showing how > Harry > > is slowly weaning himself off of Hermione's assistance and > > eventually, when she dies(?) it'll be ok because he is self- > > sufficient?? Ok, that sounded better in my head, but oh well... > > > > I believe a similar incident occurs when Hermione is stunned in > > CoS... When she gets "unfrozen" doesn't she get excited that he > > figured it out on his own?? > Somewhere out there is a quote from JKR -- I know its there, I read it several times -- where someone asked her if Hermione and Harry had a duel, who would win? She replied that up to about halfway through PoA, Hermione would have, but now Harry is getting very good at DADA. > Am I correct in thinking that the goddess that is Joanne rowling as said at some point that Ron was a planned charcter from the start of the idea and that he has a purpose will Hermione is actually a self-insertion of herself. I do not believe she is any more of a self-insertion than Prof. Lockhart is an insertion of somebody she knew. The Trio needs Hermione. She's the third leg of the three-legged stool. JKR has remarked several times that while Hermione is a caracature (sp?) of her younger self, she is not JKR. Hermione is Hermione, not Joanne. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 17:06:29 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 17:06:29 -0000 Subject: FAQF -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter Message-ID: <9kelml+7uk5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23538 ** Disclaimer ** The more I think over what I want to say here, the more it sounds like a High School teacher critiquing an essay report. But I can't see anyway out of it. So here goes: Yes, they are univerally popular. I know that. They are great cross-over books. I knew that too. The NYTimes blew it with their children's list. That is also true. What I want to know is WHY the books are so popular. Why do children and adults love them? How is it that dyslexic and autistic children read them when they can't manage more than a chapter or two of other books? How does JKR do it? As pointed out, she uses advanced english construction -- construction that puts to shame most other "adult fiction" writers. She makes use of a large vocabulary. They are long books. Children are not intimidated by all this. Why? Since I've only been seriously lurking here for a month or two, I don't know how much of this has been covered before, but I am sure it has. I would like to see what the posters of this list have to say on this subject. The insights forged in the fiery furnance of the nit-picking that goes on here have got to be good. As I said at the start, I hate to sound like a school teacher. I know how much work went into the FAQs. I am humbled and awed by it. But this FAQ needs some more work, IMHO. Marcus P.S. If this topic hasn't been covered -- highly doubtful -- then let's go for it. :) From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 17:15:11 2001 From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:15:11 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: This will probably get me kicked off the list, but ..... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23539 Suzanne wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > I've been musing over the "lets-all-be-nice-to-one-another-and- never- > say-anything-that-could-possibly-even-remotely-offend-someone-even- > the-littlest-tiniest-bit" thing. Uhmm.. whose words are this? Where are you getting this "even remotely" or "little tiniest bit"? Please have the grace to look at this issue in context. Nobody on this list fears disagreement or even controversy. We have however tactfully ended one raging debate because it descended into something more than a debate-- it was a veritable flame war. we feel the issue has been kicked to death, and in the process a few participants almost kicked to death with it. Many of us who care about this forum feared that it was being endangered and that too many good people were being driven away by the tenor of a few individuals. > Frankly, if this is a forum for GROWN UPS, why is it that so many > people lack the ability to converse in a grown up fashion about > things? I think sometimes the most "grown up" thing one can do is say "It is time to drop the subject." > When I asked about HP and the Bible, I was asking for an adult > discussion about whether or not people actually see the HP books as > leading children, adults, anyone into "bad" things. (I don't see > Paganism as a bad thing, but that because I am a Pagan). I was quite quickly and fiercely shot down because "we had this discussion before > and it created a Holy War". You were "shot down"? "Quickly and fiercely" even? Or was your proposal simply met with opposition? Are you not perhaps taking this a little personally? Is it not okay for people to have a different point of view or experience than yours? > Well, here's the part that'll probably get me kicked off. I am going > to say what I think. If someone is offended by something I say, then > they are quite free to address me, by email, on the list, whatever. This is just my unimportant opinion I guess, but I am personally just a little tired of the "I will say whatever I please no matter how it affects others!" approach to the "freedom of speech" issue. It feels awfully adolescent. You have never offended me, please let me make that clear. However I do wish though that people could sometimes think about what they are saying before they say it, and maybe even value other people's feelings a little bit more than this. I think it is very important to have healthy, sometimes heated discussions in our lives. It keeps us thinking, it keeps us considering other possibilities. I understand most people think perception is reality, and for the most part, it is. But if you are offended by the slightest little reference to religion or to gays or to politics or by someone having a different opinion than you, then really, you need to open your mind a little and realize that there are so many different views on life and just because it isn't the same as your view, doesn't mean it is wrong, bad, unholy, whatever.I agree with what you are saying, and I think they are many lively and even heated discussions on this list. I think you are making the situation sound much, much worse than it is. Once again, look at the context. tabling this ONE topic was an extreme, uncommon, and exceptional step for the group to make, and it was in response to a rather extreme and exceptional situation. Ok, Yup, I'm ready for the emails from the moderators, from the list folk, from my list-elf, from whoever wants to yell at me for voicing my opinion and telling you what was on my mind. >>>>I would only like to respond to one thing that I myself have thought. The newcommers to this list I myself being one have never had the chance to view our opinions about the particular subject and when we do, harmlessly asking peoples opionins we are told that is it a "forbidden subject" and are treated like children being told "you know better then that" form the parents. But this is only my opinion and probably does not count to most of you. Heidi H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! 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FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 17:27:56 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 13:27:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Questions to JKR Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23540 Sorry if I am asking this a little late. I have two questions: --Is JK going to be depicting all Slytherins as EVIL forever? Especially when Dumbledore is trying to unite everyone? --What are all the professor's first names? Sylph >At 10:31 PM 7/31/01 +0000, Steve Vander Ark wrote: > >I am working on a letter to JKR. I need to ask her the status of the > >new trading cards (how much input did she give and should those > >spells and facts be considered canon). Anyone want to suggest any > >other good questions to ask? No, I won't ask about the gleam or who > >falls in love with who or any of those kinds of things. But factual > >details that don't give anything away, sure. So what shall I ask her? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 18:03:52 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 18:03:52 -0000 Subject: Birthdays and calendars In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05353@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <9kep28+mrio@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23541 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" wrote: > The problem is the twins and Angelina. Angelina is in the same school year > as they are, but she turns 17 in October of 1994. But the twins don't turn > 17 until the following April, which would be 1995. So there goes that > theory. > > Gwendolyn Grace If the cutoff date is Sept 30, it would still work. Harry and Hermione would still go to school in the same calendar year. They would still both be thirteen at the end of PoA term. Remember, there is nothing sacred about Sept 1 or Jan 1 for that matter. I, myself, grew up where the cutoff date was Oct 31. I was painfully aware of it since my birthday is Oct 27. Marcus From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Fri Aug 3 18:21:52 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 19:21:52 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Birthdays and calendars References: <9kep28+mrio@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00d501c11c49$2dcec340$30347bd5@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 23542 > If the cutoff date is Sept 30, it would still work. Harry and > Hermione would still go to school in the same calendar year. They > would still both be thirteen at the end of PoA term. > > Remember, there is nothing sacred about Sept 1 or Jan 1 for that > matter. I, myself, grew up where the cutoff date was Oct 31. I was > painfully aware of it since my birthday is Oct 27. > The Uk school system is pretty rigid. The admission date rune 1st September to 31st August. I know because I knew of people who had trouble when they changed schools. It's highly probable that this is the system that JKR had in mind because this is the system that she has experience of both as a pupil and a teacher. Michelle From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 19:35:06 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 19:35:06 -0000 Subject: reminiscing...those wonderful Abanes days In-Reply-To: <9kednc+87lh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9keuda+4a41@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23543 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: >You have no idea what it was like. >But > sort of like when Sirius told Harry about Voldemort's Dark Time in > GF, you don't know what it was like and you wouldn't understand. I'm > not being condescending here. That's just the truth. > > The one quality that really struck me about Abanes is that he is a > brilliant wordsmith. He knows how to twist words to say what he wants > them to say and he does it so well that it's almost impossible to > come back with any sort of reply. I was here during the time you mention but I never said anything. I'm sorry I didn't speak up earlier. I don't want to start this whole war over again. However........ > The discussion offended a great > many people and there was a lot of anger and resentment around here. I was one of those offended. But I wasn't offended by what Mr. Abanes had to say. I was more offended by the name calling by many on this board. > He had come on the pretext of honest, open, debate, but quickly > demonstrated that he was only interested in using his gift of words > to antagonize and irritate and hurt and wound and maybe even show > these silly, misguided Harry Potter fans what idiots they are. And > you know what? He was so damn annoying and twisting and impossible to > talk to reasonably that he did bring out the worst in some of our > number, which just proved his point, as far as he was concerned. There were not many people who tried to talk to him reasonably. It was pure name calling. I don't believe he came on this board to antagonize, irritate, hurt, and wound anyone. His book was being discussed and he came to join that discussion. I don't think he twisted anything around. He just gave his honest opinion. > However, he himself was one of the worst of the lot No, he wasn't. I'll comment on this part further down. >but simply > refused to realize that and admit that he wasn't right on all counts. > Very tellingly, when Heidi clearly pointed out a flagrant >misquoting > of JKR in his book, he never responded. I'm sure there were other comments that he didn't reply back to. How could he? Whenever he did try to comment on something he was pretty much attacked as being a nut. I think it was probably hard for him to keep up with all the attacks and what was being said. >He was very good at keeping > the attention of things he thought he could win at with his twisting > words. I do not say this lightly, but as a Christian, he reminds me > of the Devil, coming under the banner of truth and twisting words to > pit people against each other. That is the Devil's modus operendi. Now you see, this is one reason why we can't discuss these things. *Reminds me of the Devil, twisting words, pitting people against each other*. Where did he twist words? I guess we each saw things differently. > > Now why do I say all this? You have to understand, those of you who > weren't part of that Dark Time, that those of us who were here then > DON'T WANT TO GO BACK THERE AGAIN. I agree to an extent. It's a shame this *war* could not have been continued in the OT forum. Just about everything else is allowed there. >M. Barnett said: Frankly, if this is a form for GROWN UPS, why is >it that so many people lack the ability to converse in a grown up >fashion about things. >When I asked about HP and the Bible, I was asking for an adult >discussion............. Here are some examples of conversing in a grown up way (and you will also see why I don't think Mr. Abanes was the *worst of the lot*): Hicksville, USA., Bible thumping, religious fanatcis, lock up your children, fanatic Christian Fundamentalists, Religious Fanatics-R us, dog poop, self-made celebrity (Gilderoy Lockhart, anyone), he's going to blow his horn all the way to the pearly gates, REAL churchianity, the worst kind of born-again, his particualr brand of crusading is irritating, hallelujah, holier-than-thou-nutcase, good luck in the hereafter, whatever he may perceive that to be, we won't like for you to be here...get bored with you, well, just because you are what you are, fanatic in the definitive sense of the word, such extreme views, extremists like Abanes, spouting their offensive views, right-wing extremists, spout their bigotry, people to the right are extremists and bigots, toss him off the list. I could go on and on but this is what happened the last time we discussed the book. It was truly an ugly thing. Also, only two people, that I know of, apologized for anything that was said. One was Mr. Abanes. Message 17701 by Scott: >I know we aren't supposed to continue the Richard Abanes thread but >in an off-list e-mail he asked me to post this. Do not flame me! >These are his words and you can take them for what they are... Richard Abanes wrote; >"I am beginning to see that this HARRY POTTER issue is a very >emotionally charged subject for all parties concerned. Moreover, >discussing the issue tends to very easily spill over into closely >related emotionally charged areas of life for people (i.e., >religion, Christianity, intelligence, literary taste, church >history, alternate forms of religious expression, personal beliefs, >etc.). These only bring more emotions to the surface as responses >quickly degenerate into personal attacks that are probably motivated >by past experiences, prior wounds, and insecurities. I INCLUDE >MYSELF among those affected. >In response to your thoughtful e-mail, I extend to you and to the >others on the HP fan board my sincere apologies for any statements >that may have sounded harsh, unloving, unChristian, and/or rude. I >am only human and very subject to my own sinfulness, weaknesses, >prejudices, and lack of communication skills. I cannot help but >think that if all of us could have sat down somewhere for a little >pie and coffee, that everything would have gone much better. I am >not perfect -- FAR from it (ask my wife, she'll be glad to tell >you that). Again, I apologize, and do hope that my actions have not >further soured the image many of the board readers apparently have >of Christianity. Any errors I made in communication where mine >alone -- not Christ's. By the way, as a result of the last few >days, I am contemplating not participating in online discussions of >this kind in the future. Since I do not wish to increase the >difficulty of the situation, I would ask that you post this response >I have written, in the hopes that others will be more inclined to >read it from a fellow HP fan rather than simply ignoring it because >it comes from me. I do want others to receive my apology. Since >the ADMIN has ended the thread, you may have to clear on last post >with him/her. It was Mr. Abanes who had the backbone to admit he made some mistakes and apologize. I write all of this to show that there are some topics that are just not going to get us anywhere. This is one of them. M. Barnett wrote: >Ok, Yup, I'm ready for the emails from the moderators, from the list >folk, from my list-elf, from whoever wants to yell at me for voicing >my opinion and telling you what was on my mind. Ok, Yup, me also. Sometimes it's just hard to keep quiet. Koinonia From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 19:47:24 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 19:47:24 -0000 Subject: Birthdays and calendars In-Reply-To: <00d501c11c49$2dcec340$30347bd5@tmeltcds> Message-ID: <9kev4c+8a79@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23544 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" wrote: > > If the cutoff date is Sept 30, it would still work. Harry and > > Hermione would still go to school in the same calendar year. They > > would still both be thirteen at the end of PoA term. > > > > Remember, there is nothing sacred about Sept 1 or Jan 1 for that > > matter. I, myself, grew up where the cutoff date was Oct 31. I was > > painfully aware of it since my birthday is Oct 27. > > > The Uk school system is pretty rigid. The admission date rune 1st > September to 31st August. I know because I knew of people who had > trouble when they changed schools. It's highly probable that this is the > system that JKR had in mind because this is the system that she has > experience of both as a pupil and a teacher. > > Michelle You are, of course, correct. However, I doubt Hogwarts comes under the Muggle Ministry of Education, or whatever department controls that important segment of life. Hogwarts is controlled by the MoM. They might have some other reason for setting the date elsewhere. Hogwarts was founded before the Norman Conquest. They might have set the date back then and haven't felt inclined to change it. So, unless further light and knowledge is revealed to us, I think we can safely place the cutoff date between Hermione's and Angelina's birthday. That would satisfy all canon concerns. Possible dates: *23 September - the autumn equinox. *29 September - Michaelmas. Still used in UK Higher Education, or so my Jane Austen friends tell me. *30 September - Last day of September. The end of the Month. Exactly one month after Term starts, the first of September. Point: Do we know for certain that Angelina and the Twins are in the same year? I am uncertain of that little detail. Marcus From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 3 20:13:29 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 15:13:29 -0500 Subject: Amanda's finally lost it Message-ID: <3B6B05E8.36789DD1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23545 Okay. I'll probably get thrown off the list for this, but here goes. I'm an oldie, and this is my first rant on this subject, and I know it's probably come up before, but I'm saying it anyway. So there. I think the policies of this list are just great. Anyone who has never (a) taught a class in any form, (b) done a presentation, (c) been married, or (d) had children will not appreciate how hard it is to keep a civil tone sometimes. The image of a snowball down a hill comes to mind; things just get out of hand. And this happens in a room where you are looking at people and everyone gets to process the information at the same time. Move it to cyberspace when people read and respond at different times, when you hope the last word has been said, you even request no more, then someone does a knee-jerk response before they read your request and it starts all up again. So I like the list and I object to anyone who suggests things in any sort of tone of fighting the oppressors or other such nonsense. So sue me. I also think the people are just great. The tone is wonderful. For me, this is like a group of friends, some old, some new, who come with a built-in common ground and who can now share other things. In the course of postings on this list, and later after Chatter spun off, I've learned new stuff about Latin, condom machines at the South Pole, teaching in underprivileged schools, word derivations, and other cultures' cuisines (like spotted dick is not something you take antibiotics for). Here are people you can throw theories to, who throw theories back, who can discuss and dissect the theory without dissecting the poster as well, who laugh at each other, who laugh at themselves, and who love their subject. I am the first to admit that I've been misunderstood. I was appalled the first time someone referred to me having "shredded them" (I believe was the phrase). All of us try very hard NOT to hurt anyone's feelings. It's just that some posters invest more of themselves in their discussions than others. But I see no reason to "hit back first," to post something on the list *expecting* to get hit or shredded or whatever your term of choice. "Defense mode" is really generally uncalled for. I am almost a L.O.O.N. by default--I will have been on this list for a year come September 19--and before I got my job I was The High Poster for rather a long time. I have never seen anyone's theory, or anyone, deliberately attacked by any of the active, involved listmembers (I have seen some people *think* they were, but if they had the sense to talk it out, things cleared up). I have never seen the administrators do anything even remotely oppressive--with the exceptions of a few basic guidelines, they are re-active, not pro-active, shifting from member to Moderator status only when necessary (I think it must hurt, like lycanthropy, so they don't like to do it much). Okay, I know someone's going to disagree with me and I don't care and you can say whatever you want, I'm going to post this anyway and it doesn't matter to me if you all disagree because you probably all stopped reading long ago, if you ever even started because you saw it was from me and how long it was and nobody ever reads my stuff anyway which *must* mean that you all hate me, right, or at least you think I'm stupid or immature or deviant or something so why should I bother but I am anyway because I have a *right* to post anything I think and nobody can tell me not to or they're poop-heads and can't handle adult discussions, and doesn't all this sound silly? So can we all stop this sort of thing and get back to the Potterverse? --Amanda, greyer by the day From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 3 20:22:35 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 15:22:35 -0500 Subject: Koinonia? You there? References: <9keuda+4a41@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6B080A.A3D3FFA4@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23546 Koinonia, I tried to respond to you offlist and I got an undeliverable mail message back; is "koinonia02 at yahoo.com" not you anymore? Sorry to waste the bandwidth; didn't know what else to do. K, talk back to me directly, don't respond to the list. --Amanda From catsrock at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 20:27:57 2001 From: catsrock at hotmail.com (Kavitha Kannan) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 20:27:57 -0000 Subject: Lots and Lots of Topics In-Reply-To: <3B6A4A3F.44777AEC@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9kf1gd+gqte@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23547 Tom Riddle also has a strong resemblance to Harry. Maybe he fathered > BOTH James AND Harry. Personally, I don't believe it -- I doubt that > Riddle had much interest in sex and that Voldemort had any interest in > sex (just power, cruelty, and immortality). Furthermore, it would be > messy literature for all Harry's emotionalizing about James to go to > waste. I find it difficult to believe that, if Harry was Riddle's son, Lily would be the mother. After all, Voldemort's completely against Muggles and Mudbloods, so I doubt he could have fallen in love. Rape, I wouldn't rule out. Then, there could have been some prophecy about the son being stronger than the father...but that strikes me as being far-fetched. No; I'm afraid that James is Harry's father and there's no denying it. However, I do think Riddle would want to father a child, not through any paternal instinct involving caring and warm fuzzy feelings, but because he's just the kind of guy to want hellspawn to carry on his work. And sex is power, in a sense. The ability to put some poor woman through nine months of discomfort would doubtless amuse him. Besides, death eaters strike me as the burn,-pillage-and-rape-all-the-local-women types. *shrug* but he'd only take to wife the daughter of a old pure-blood family...like Grindewald's daughter if he had one. And there would just be the desire to have a son, that's all. Somehow Voldemort strikes me as a sexist pig, so he wouldn't value women at any rate...but that's my opinion. Of course, I can't help but wonder if his hatred of muggles is due to his father leaving when told that Tom's mother was a witch, and his sexism, if he is a sexist, could come from feeling betrayed by his mother's death. After all, there's only one woman mentioned by name as a Death Eater for sure, so I get the impression women aren't valued in the ranks of evil. Wow...that was a long first post by my standards. Well, back to lurking. -Kavitha. From MmeBurgess at msn.com Fri Aug 3 20:42:09 2001 From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 20:42:09 -0000 Subject: Amanda's finally lost it In-Reply-To: <3B6B05E8.36789DD1@texas.net> Message-ID: <9kf2b1+teer@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23548 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > I think the policies of this list are just great. Anyone who has never (a) taught a class in any form, (b) done a presentation, (c) been married, or (d) had children will not appreciate how hard it is to keep a civil tone sometimes. The image of a snowball down a hill comes to mind; things just get out of hand. < Amanda, I agree completely. It is so hard when not talking face to face to get points across completely as you mean them. We as a society are so used to reading body language, facial signs, etc. in addition to listening to what people say that it is hard to grasp what someone means when we don't have those non-verbal clues. As a result, postings that were meant light-heartedly or even as a jest get taken too seriously and, before you know it, we have an avalanche on our hands! >For me, this is like a group of friends, some old, some new, who come with a built-in common ground and who can now share other things. In the course of postings on this list, and later after Chatter spun off, I've learned new stuff about Latin, condom machines at the South Pole, teaching in underprivileged schools, word derivations, and other cultures' cuisines < Once again, I agree. One of the reasons for joining this list was not *just* to talk about Harry Potter, but to join a group of people with whom I have something in common, but who may have different views than myself, whether on HP or life in general. With so many people (close to 1900, now?), even an old topic is bound to gain new insight with each addition of new blood. The things that you mentioned above are things that I would never be able to discuss under normal circumstances, since the majority of my "co-workers" are the high school students I teach (for those who don't teach, we can be pretty isolated from the other adults). Anyway, I just wanted to add my two Knuts. While I agree with the "kinder, nicer nitpicking", I think we already *are* kind and nice. If anything, this should just be a reminder to those of us who can jump the gun on replying before thinking (myself included), that the idea "Think about what you say before you say it" should apply to posting as well. Angela Burgess From oppen at cnsinternet.com Fri Aug 3 20:46:07 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 15:46:07 -0500 Subject: Hermione's Death? Message-ID: <00ef01c11c5d$527dd8c0$8dc71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 23549 First off, I want to say that Hermione's easily my favorite character of the Trio. If I had a daughter who was like her, I'd figure that I must have done something right in my life to be so lucky. _If_ JKR kills her, I'll be very sad. That said...if it's necessary for her to die to defeat Voldemort, or save Harry or Ron, I think she'd accept it without a qualm. I could see her, for example, throwing herself in front of Voldemort's wand to save either of the other two, knowing perfectly well that this was going to kill her. Or casting a spell to stop Voldemort from regaining his full power, even though she knew that the backlash from the spell would be fatal to her. I could even see her telling the others that this was how it had to be, and telling them goodbye...this _would_ be a really touching scene. You may ask: Why do I say this? Because, in my view, of the Trio, it's easily Hermione that's by far the bravest of them all. Think about it from her point of view. The letter from Hogwarts had to come as a complete surprise to her and her family, since, as Muggles, they wouldn't have known about the wizarding world, but instead of shrinking in fear, Hermione not only embraced this new destiny, but set forth determined to not only survive, but shine---to be _the best_ witch in her class. She set off into an unknown situation, one where her parents' and family's prior experience could not have been any guidance, and at the opposite end of the country from her family to boot. This, in itself, took a great deal of courage, and I have to say that this is one of the reasons I love her character. Contrast Ron---he knew about Hogwarts from the get-go; his parents and brothers had gone there, he'd heard about it all his life ("Really, Mom? Were you _really_ as good as all that? You never lost your house any points? That isn't what Grandma said!") and the only worries he had were about money and whether the Sorting Ceremony _really_ involved wrestling a troll. As for Harry---his life at the Dursleys' was so lousy that I think if I'd shown up and offered him a chance to go to the Russian Front, all he'd have needed to hear was that German sergeants and officers weren't as bad as the Dursleys, and he'd have been ready to march to Moscow. (I've been re-reading _Enemy at the Gates;_ hence, the WWII metaphor). On the Hogwarts Express and at the Sorting Ceremony, poor Hermione was probably all but wetting her pants with fear, but _still_ determined to see this thing through; I think she got Gryffindor partly on the basis of wanting Gryffindor and partly because the Hat could see how scared she was---and that she was overriding it. As my friend, the SF author J. Neil Schulman, has asked: "Who is braver---the man who charges into battle feeling no fear, or the man who's so scared he's wetting his pants---as he charges in anyway?" Hermione's also got the courage to stand up to her friends (such as Ron in PoA) and to withstand the disapprobation of the entire school (in GoF, when she's the only one who believes Harry didn't put his name in for the Tournament). I've known a lot of people who'd rather charge a machine-gun nest or go into a burning oil refinery than deal with either situation. As Dumbledore points out at the end of PS/SS, it takes a different, special kind of courage to stand up to your friends. If Hermione dies, as I've said, I'd be very, very sorry, both to see the end of a character I really like and care about, and because I could just imagine how awful Ron and Harry (and the Weasleys, and the Grangers, and the Hogwarts faculty) would feel about it. That being said, though, it may be necessary. Think of _Romeo and Juliet_ without the two main idiots' deaths---that was the whole point of the play, the fact that these two likeable young people had to die because of their elders' idiotic feuding, and that it took their loss to get their families' heads into the right place to call the whole stupid quarrel off. Well, that's all I can think of on _that_ subject. Maybe we should discuss something cheerful---what do you all think should be done with Voldemort if they catch him alive? The Dementor's Kiss? From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 20:57:40 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 20:57:40 -0000 Subject: Amanda's finally lost it In-Reply-To: <9kf2b1+teer@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kf384+e7je@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23550 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Angela Burgess" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > I think the policies of this list are just great. Anyone who has > never (a) taught a class in any form, (b) done a presentation, (c) > been married, or (d) had children will not appreciate how hard it is > to keep a civil tone sometimes. The image of a snowball down a hill > comes to mind; things just get out of hand. < > > Amanda, I agree completely. It is so hard when not talking face to > face to get points across completely as you mean them. We as a > society are so used to reading body language, facial signs, etc. in > addition to listening to what people say that it is hard to grasp > what someone means when we don't have those non-verbal clues. As a > result, postings that were meant light-heartedly or even as a jest > get taken too seriously and, before you know it, we have an avalanche > on our hands! I have taken part in many, many online forums of various kinds and have seen way too many die a slow and horrible death precisely because no one was willing to step in witn a reasonable amount of moderating skill. Social skills are important everywhere, but especially on the web where things are are much more easyily misconstrued, and where, for example, one person's "personal experience" with a religious group will sound like a judgement and a label by someone else. Going out of your way to think about ***how your words will sound to others***, to give others the benfit of the doubt, and maybe take into account that sometimes your opinion *isn't* the most important thing on the table at any given moment, are all efforts that pay off abundantly in the good will they create and the trust that they build. I love this group, and I want to protect what it stands for and ehat it is doing. I think the moderators have been doing a superb job at knowing when to step in and act and when to step to the side. I applaud all of them. As far as rules go, baby y'all have seen nothing. You want to see rules? Go to the Jane Austen site at http://www.pemberley.com and just TRY to ask for help on your homework. It is a superlative site, run by dedicated (fanatical?) people. Much like ours! Long may we all live! Off my soapbox, Suzanne From bohners at pobox.com Fri Aug 3 21:17:33 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:17:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Amanda's finally lost it References: <3B6B05E8.36789DD1@texas.net> Message-ID: <022901c11c61$baddfb80$7e17fea9@bohners> No: HPFGUIDX 23551 Three cheers, Amanda! I quite agree with everything you've said. FWIW, the reason I mostly lurk here is not because I am in the least intimidated or threatened by anyone on this group (on the contrary, I think you're all a remarkably charming and civil bunch, EVEN when disagreeing with each other) but because I seldom have anything much to say. Plus, with a fourteen-month-old son running around and a mega-Snapefic in the works (for which I have set myself the deadline of a chapter a week, just to Get It Done And Out Of My Hair), it's hard to find spare moments to sit and mull over canon with the rest of you folks. I have been on a lot of lists, moderated in a lot of different ways (or not moderated at all) and on the whole I am very favorably impressed by the tone and atmosphere of this one. I am also astounded by the amount of work and care put into this group by the moderators and list elves. My son is pestering me so I must go before I can say more, which may or may not be a good thing... -- Rebecca J. (Anderson) Bohner Specializing in Snape, Moody and George at http://www.sugarquill.com/authors/rjanderson.html http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/R_J_Anderson From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Aug 3 21:29:55 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 16:29:55 -0500 Subject: FAQ -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter References: <9kelml+7uk5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6B17D3.34EC3AC7@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23552 Hi there -- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > What I want to know is WHY the books are so popular. Why do children > and adults love them? How is it that dyslexic and autistic children > read them when they can't manage more than a chapter or two of other > books? > > How does JKR do it? As pointed out, she uses advanced english > construction -- construction that puts to shame most other "adult > fiction" writers. She makes use of a large vocabulary. They are long > > books. Children are not intimidated by all this. Why? > > As I said at the start, I hate to sound like a school > teacher. I know > how much work went into the FAQs. I am humbled and awed by it. But > this FAQ needs some more work, IMHO. Well, not to sound like a defensive student, but as the author of this particular FAQ, I feel compelled to say, "Hey! I didn't just *skip* a whole thread of messages because I didn't want to deal with it." :--) Seriously, you make a good point that the FAQ could/should be expanded to address the topic you've raised. But, it really *hasn't* been discussed before -- believe it or not, something that critical has really been overlooked by the group. I think it's a good topic. I'm not sure I've seen anything much written in newspapers, magazines & the like that would address it. So, it seems a good idea to open it up for discussion. What do you all think? *Why* are they so successful, among children and adults alike? Obviously, we can't really come up with a definitive answer for the FAQ, but I'd be happy to expand it to include our collective wisdom on why these books have taken the world by storm. I don't have time to set out my own thoughts on this right now .... but I'll jump in later. I promise. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 21:37:55 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 21:37:55 -0000 Subject: Kindness (was Chicken Meat) -- FAQs In-Reply-To: <3B697042.63A1025A@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9kf5jm+9ml5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23553 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > Hi everyone -- > > > FAQs -- The FAQ group is very very interested in feedback! The FAQs are > of course fluid -- they will change to reflect new theories, things JKR > answers in chats, etc. So, by all means, share your thoughts with us (I > happen to know that the LOON patrol is parsing through them line by line > right now -- ). > > RE: the Romance Pairings FAQ -- > > > Although as a R/H-er I do have to say that in the Romance section that the two main bits are hopelessly imbalanced (too much > > pro H/H and too little con, and the reverse with R/H) and all the pro > > H/H points were silly anyway :). > > > > That FAQ was actually reviewed by people on the FAQ > committee who have no ship preference because I was keen to avoid > charges of bias. I also solicited people to submit any thoughts on all > the pairings last fall when I was first writing it up. That offer still > stands: the R/H section does reflect *all* the arguments that have been > made in favor of that pairing. I promise you that all the pro & con > arguments are included for all the pairings -- everything that has been > discussed in this group is included (and if it's not, the omission was > *not* intentional). So ... if there are pro R/H arguments that you feel > are missing, by all means, please bring them up & we'll get that FAQ > revised. > > The intent with all the FAQs is to reflect what's been discussed & to > give people fodder for further discussions. And, perhaps most > importantly, we wanted there to be a way for members to see what's been > said so far on a subject without needing to try & consult the mammoth > message archives to find what they were looking for. We FAQ authors all > have our own opinions & biases, but we did search through *all* the > messages to compose the FAQs. Our intent was not for the Hogwarts FAQ, > for example, to reflect my own view about the student numbers debate but > rather to reflect what every side of that issue has argued so far. If > we've failed in this regard though -- be sure to raise it! We do want > to hear how to make the FAQs one of the premier HP resources on the web. > > Penny I jest, I jest, of course, and as I think I've said before I thought that all the FAQs were very well done ? probably the biggest conclusion being that JKR needs a mathematician to help her when it comes to some things (I've personally done the whole trying to find Galleons worth in ?s from FB&WTFT today and got either ?3 or ?5 ? I've sure I've heard her say that its ?5 though, so I guess I'll have to stick with that). I did have a feeling that the Romance was likely to have been checked by a lot of people. Anyway, seeing as you unleashed me though... I think that the main `problem' is that there is really two sorts of arguments. Firstly there's the theoretical matchmaker thing where you try to match personalities (something which of course always works in real life) and which is nice for fanfic. Then there's the whole arguments over what people actually feel in canon. There we can probably rule out 90% of stuff as unlikely but of course the big question is H/H or R/H. Out of the main three, the only one that everyone is sure about is Ron ? he likes Hermione, although he may not have admitted it to himself yet. Harry's position is arguable, but I'm not sure there's much evidence to say he likes Hermione in that way, even subconsciously. Some bits of evidence picked randomly out against ? the thing that Harry will miss most is Ron. Seeing as I like to balance stuff, I'll admit that a) the magic involved may not know his true feelings (although evidence with Krum seems contrary to this) b) it suits the plot to have three people close to Harry captured, and unless something very mysterious is going on behind the scenes while Ron and Harry were arguing, Ron is not the thing will miss most. Oh and c) his best friend may still be more important to him at this stage of life. Secondly, note the quote from chapter 19 of GOF, "Harry liked Hermione very much, but she just wasn't the same as Ron. There was much less laughter and a lot more hanging around in the library when Hermione was your best friend." Their personalities don't seem to get on too well without Ron. Of course, there is the possibility that Harry is just distracted because he's missing Ron. Now we come to the biggest, most controversial point, and centre of the whole issue ? Hermione. As its kinda complicated the rest of this may not follow a very logical order. Some people have suggested that there might be a triangle or that R&H is too clich? ? to be honest I don't see that happening in the remaining 3 books, as I don't really think focusing too heavily on angst by constantly switching relationships etc is JKR's style. It's been used as a mostly comedic element so far, and 5,6 and 7 are going to be busy enough with the fighting of YKW ? especially as 5 and 6 are going to be shorter than 4. (Then again, I would argue that they are still children books no matter if JKR wrote them for herself ? but that's an argument for another day). To take some points from the FAQ? "Some members also argue that if you believe that "bickering" (and glaring, arguing, etc.) is indicative of underlying romantic tension, then a Draco/Hermione pairing makes as much sense as a Ron/Hermione pairing. Others counter that this is an "unfair" argument, that the Draco/Hermione enmity is a far different context than the Ron & Hermione bickering." Ahem ? seems just a bit of a difference. It's like the difference between Hitler/Anne Frank and, well, Ron/Hermione. One is institutional hatred of race, the other is mostly just different points of view on life. "5. Friends/Siblings -- Some of the H/H members believe that Ron and Hermione have a more sibling-like relationship than Harry and Hermione." As a counter to that ? I've always personally thought the exact opposite. It's really a matter of opinion. "1. Balance -- Proponents of this theory argue that Harry and Hermione are more balanced as a couple than Ron and Hermione. Harry's bravery and standout magical abilities are balanced by Hermione's intellect and natural magical abilities; therefore, neither party would be the dominant partner in a romantic relationship. She's a strong enough person to "hold her own" and be a realistic love interest of the hero. In addition, she has strengths that Harry needs. Harry seems to have a considerable (though largely untapped) reservoir of latent magical talent. Although she appears to be something short of Harry's talent level, Hermione has considerably more natural magical talent than Ron." A nice point from the matchmaking side ? but I personally don't believe we've seen all of Ron's abilities. Remember that he's the strategic one of the group ? not just from his chess skills but from some connection of his name I think I've read somewhere. He also comes from an incredibly talented family which have produced two head boys and at least three incredible Quidditch players (do we know if Bill was ever on the house team?). He's got the genes to be incredible at athletic ability and the more academic sections of the curriculum. Admittedly not actually that much related to H/H/R discussion, just an observation on the boy. "2. JKR's Favorite Characters One member has created some strong arguments that Harry is JKR's favorite character in the series and that because he is the story's hero, he is in effect her hero as well. Hermione is indisputably JKR's "surrogate" in the books. JKR has admitted that Hermione reflects many aspects of her own personality. This observation adds support for those who see a strong Harry/Hermione (H/H) subtext within the books." I was about to say that I would use this evidence against H/H ? am I the only one who would think it a bit weird to write about your surrogate having a relationship with your hero? ? when I remembered that Ron is based on a friend of hers. I'm not sure which is worse ? having a relationship with your imaginary hero (she was going to call her son Harry if she had one ? the name had a different use in her brain surely), or with a representation of your best friend. Anyway on conclusion, I kind of think that this doesn't really support anything and for decency's sake we should just think that JKR just based some of the characteristics of the heroes on her / people she knew. No avatar relationships I'd hope. "3. Hermione's Interest It can be argued that Hermione has shown more interest in Harry than in Ron. She bought him an expensive broomstick servicing kit for his birthday in PoA (indicating that she gave the matter enough thought to buy him a present he'd enjoy rather than what he expected her to buy, a book). At the Quidditch World Cup in GoF, it's Harry that she pulls back into his seat when the boys are all entranced by the veela. "When Harry and Ron are fighting during GoF, she chose to spend a considerable portion of her time with Harry rather than Ron. We the readers are left with the impression that Harry and Hermione go to classes together, sit together in classes, leave class together, eat all their meals together, spend all their time in the common room together and take several long walks together. While we have the impression that Hermione believes both Harry and Ron are being stubborn, she's taken sides to some extent by spending so much of her time with Harry during this time period." The story is told from Harry's POV ? there's not much to write about if he's on his own. Also note that Hermione feels that Harry is probably the one who needs the most support ? he is the one about to face a dragon, after all. "When they go to Hogsmeade and Harry is in his invisibility cloak, Hermione was, from the viewpoint of the other students, alone. Ron didn't make any attempt to invite her to join him and his group or even approach her." Kind of irrelevant ? Hermione can't go over to him because she's promised Harry, and even if Ron has seen her but not gone over... Well, I think there's enough evidence later that we can ignore that tiny detail and keep our conclusion that Ron likes her. "She kisses Harry at the end of GoF. We don't know if she also kissed Ron and/or Krum, but the fact that she kissed Harry is subtly emphasized (and might or might not be significant). To me it seems a very sisterly kind of action ? not the kind of thing you'd do to anyone you had any feelings about because it would be too embarrassing. It's also a very protective kind of action ? such as would suitable to someone who had just been through all Harry had. I think perhaps the most evidence to show than in canon H likes R are JKR's quotes. Take this:? "Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of Goblet of Fire? JKR ? Yes, something's "going on," but Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy." It would seem to me to be an important quote surely. Note that she doesn't say that Hermione doesn't notice it. From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 21:50:57 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 21:50:57 -0000 Subject: FAQ -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <3B6B17D3.34EC3AC7@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9kf6c2+7rmu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23554 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > Hi there -- > > prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > > What I want to know is WHY the books are so popular. Why do children > > and adults love them? How is it that dyslexic and autistic children > > read them when they can't manage more than a chapter or two of other > > books? > > > > How does JKR do it? As pointed out, she uses advanced english > > construction -- construction that puts to shame most other "adult > > fiction" writers. She makes use of a large vocabulary. They are long > > > > books. Children are not intimidated by all this. Why? > > > > As I said at the start, I hate to sound like a school > > teacher. I know > > how much work went into the FAQs. I am humbled and awed by it. But > > this FAQ needs some more work, IMHO. I think its a mix of a lot of things personally:- 1) Reading anything / children's books is fun - but sometimes you need a very well hyped book to get people to try it. Still, obviously, that's not all or they wouldn't get hyped in the first place. 2) The book uses the format of a classic school story, and school stories have always been very enjoyable (Jennings / Bunter / Enid Blyton for some British examples). However she also mixes that in with some adventure, another popular genre, and humour to keep the book interesting as one reads along. There is also a bigger incentive as the books have a continuity, rather than self contained adventures. 3) Related a bit to the above, the mood is constantly changing from serious drama to adventure (mid way through the books) to humour. This makes it very hard to keep bored, and again keeps you reading. 4) The characterisation is very good. None of the characters are perfect, but they are all interesting and have their own features making them individuals (with the possible exception of Crabbe / Goyle - I for one don't have separate mental pictures of those two). Just look at all the ways the characters have been explored in fanfic - in other genres I've looked at, there isn't this constant twisting of characters and it isn't so interesting just putting them in new situations. 5) JKR is a very, very, good writer. To conclude - I really don't have much of an idea to be honest... Jonathan Dupont From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 22:16:03 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:16:03 +0200 Subject: Religion and Harry References: <9keuda+4a41@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <003f01c11c69$e2ab3760$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 23555 Err ... folks, can't we just drop this Abanes business and get onto more interesting topics? I'm a (Christian) theologian with a specialization in polemics, where standard issue academic equipment includes a rhetorical machine gun and a pyschological flack jacket. There aren't many things I enjoy more than going at it hammer and tongs over my twin passions for theology and Harry Potter. But one of the keys in polemics is to know when to can it. When people can't discuss the issues without a guilliotine handy, it's time to stop. When you can't even mention the name of the person most associated with any given question (be it Abanes, Barth or Calvin) without having a brawl break out, call a time out. Let it cool down some, and consider whether you're discussing the issue in the right forum and from the right angle. I just spent a while going through the original controversy (I slept through it before), and I don't believe I saw much of anyone at their best. So be it. Abanes has moved on, and I don't believe he needs or even desires to be either rehabilited or re-incriminated on this list--and I certainly think it wise of the mod squad to have impound all hatchets involved for a mass burial. But nobody ever said we can't discuss Harry Potter from an explicitly religious perspective! If something someone read in the Bible or the Talmud or the Bhagavad-Gita or the Watch Tower has significant bearing on Harry Potter, let's hear about it! And if you'd like to debate whether the way Jo envisions the moral attributes of the four Hogwarts houses suggests a sort of subliminal Calvinism (which I happen to think!), whack that send button till your thumb hurts. I don't think anyone has a problem with that. However, discussing Harry Potter from a religious perspective is NOT the same as using Harry Potter as a platform to discuss religion. In the same way, discussing the Dursley's management style is NOT the same as moving from the Grunnings' CEO to an extended discussion of my own boss. There's nothing inherently wrong with the latter sort of discussion; in fact, that's why we have an OT group. But it's not what HPfGU is for--and certainly not if it's an emotionally loaded topic. So perhaps, instead beating each other with dead horses, we could devote some time to religion-related questions that are (1) compatible with this list and (2) worth discussing. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who btw is *not* a moderator and is interpreting group policy according to his own lights. He was serious about the Calvnism bit, though, if anyone care to pick up on it ... ) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 22:23:45 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 22:23:45 -0000 Subject: reminiscing...those wonderful Abanes days... NOT! In-Reply-To: <9kednc+87lh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kf89h+5dk8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23556 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Hey... > > As I was reading the latest round of posts concerning the banning of > the religion topic, it occurred to me that those who weren't here > when Richard Abanes joined this group really should pause a minute > and consider. You have no idea what it was like. > . > He had come on the pretext of honest, open, debate, but quickly > demonstrated that he was only interested in using his gift of words > to antagonize and irritate and hurt and wound and maybe even show > these silly, misguided Harry Potter fans what idiots they are. > It strikes me that there are two points that should be reinforced: First, I sincerely believe that Abanes had no intention of engaging in debate for the purpose of arriving at a new conclusion or consensus. Neil is right on the money there. Second, there are some topics that in my experience have NEVER le to a resolution by discussion. The various parties' initial positions never do change. This is one of them. Abortion (at least as US discussions are conerned) is another. Capital punishment, perhaps, is on the list (I have changed my opinion about it recently, but not as a result of any argument.) Even had Abanes been honestly seeking an answer, I believe that the nature of the topic completely precluded any resolution. Once one comes to that realization, staying away from dicussion of those fe topics is the sensible and adult thing to do. > Now why do I say all this? You have to understand, those of you who > weren't part of that Dark Time, that those of us who were here then > DON'T WANT TO GO BACK THERE AGAIN. AMEN TO THAT, BROTHERS AND SISTERS!! But I know our limits. Please accept that. Haggridd From iq255 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 22:50:35 2001 From: iq255 at hotmail.com (Lisa) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 22:50:35 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9kdall+oqsn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kf9rr+9fkk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23557 Many good points have been made about Snape, making it hard to know what to believe. Here's some more food for thought to muddy the waters. >From what Voldemort said at the end of GoF, I think he knows that Snape, whatever form he was in, has betrayed him. I referenced this quote in another message already, so I won't repeat it. So he can't go back to Voldemort as Snape, because he fought against Quirrel, who was carrying Voldemort. If he was using a polyjuice guise, he wouldn't be able to go back in that form either, because Voldemort made it clear that he considers him a traitor in that quote I mentioned. Furthermore, if he were to return to the DE's using polyjuice to assume a new guise, he would no doubt be excluded from the Inner Circle, making him a less than useful spy. There's also the issue of Lucius Malfoy. We know that Lucius likes Snape. I always assumed this was because of their connection through the DE's. If Snape had been using a polyjuice disguise, Malfoy wouldn't know to be fond of Snape, because he wouldn't know he'd ever been a DE. On the other hand, in support of the polyjuice theory, the identities of all the other DE's seem to be pretty common knowledge. If Snape's involvement with Voldemort were open, as with the other DE's, I doubt they would let him become a teacher at Hogwarts. Even with Dumbledore's support, too many parents would have objected. Or...was he a spy the whole time he was with the DE's? Meaning, he joined for the simple purpose of being a double agent from the beginning. And how many people would have known this? Really, I don't see how Snape could have served Voldemort without using polyjuice and end up where he is currently. I think that's enough thoughts to sufficiently muddy the waters. :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 3 22:58:49 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 22:58:49 -0000 Subject: FAQ -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <9kf6c2+7rmu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kfab9+6mqu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23558 I think Peter S. Beagle said, writing about the Lord of the Rings, that certain books have the power to draw you into a world of their own, which seems to have been going on before you got there, and will continue to exist after you leave. Books like that come along maybe once in a generation, and they have the potential to become enormously popular. They bring us as close as most of us will ever come to real magic. They give us what Tolkien called the power of "sub-creation". By creating an interior universe they restore us briefly to Paradise...erasing the distinction between the self and the other, allowing us, in discovering a new world, to recapture our innocence. This is the 'escapist' power which critics are wary of, either because they think escapism itself is bad (Tolkien said the only people who are opposed to escape are the jailers) or because they think they have a better path out of the dungeon of self we are all in. And because this escapist effect is so powerful it can be addictive, as Dumbledore himself warns, "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live." Literary critics find it vexing that a book need not be well crafted in order to have this effect--it's just our good luck that the Potter books do have interesting characters, an innovative structure and loads of wit both subtle and obvious. As my mom (who loves the books) would say, "What's not to like?" Pippin From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 23:02:04 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 19:02:04 -0400 Subject: Apologies - M.Map - V's rise to power Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23559 I would like to humbly suggest that we all stop apologizing in advance for our posts. At this point I think the this-list-is-unfriendly snowball is just picking up snow from posts that, with all good intentions, anticipate trouble. Gwendolyn Grace wrote: >I'm interested to know which spells were powerful enough to allow the map >to >recognize students who were not enrolled during any part of MWPP's tenure >as >students. Or even born yet. This is the way the Map is *not* like a computer. It doesn't "remember" Harry Potter; no one "programmed in" his name; he didn't exist yet when the map was created. It has the ability to recognize people and know their names. A simple matter for a magical object, I should think. >I truly, deeply believe that Severus is going back to the Death Eaters. Don't forget "madly." Rita wrote: >1968 because of the large number of Bad Things that happened (in USA >Muggleverse) that year. Oh. Sigh. I was born in 1968, and it gets kinda depressing to tell that to people a generation older who shake their heads and say "Wow, that was a bad year." So there were two assassinations and several riots while I was in utero, not to mention that it was possibly the worst year of the Vietnam War. *I* was born, so the year wasn't a total loss. I like your 1969 logic better, for a different reason: Voldemort is not American, and he hasn't set his nasty snakelike glowing red sights on the US yet. First England, then Europe, then the world. (I think JKR said that in an interview--he's going for world domination but starting at home.) Amy "Don't call her a Gen X-er or she'll hex yer" Z ---------------------------------------------------- JKR: Maps are a great source for names . . . Interviewer: Really? JKR: Yeah. Dursley and Dudley and Snape are all, erm, places I can't visit anymore, obviously. --Blue Peter interview ---------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 23:09:38 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 23:09:38 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9kf9rr+9fkk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kfavi+545f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23560 > There's also the issue of Lucius Malfoy. We know that Lucius likes > Snape. We do? How do we know that? From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 23:15:57 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 23:15:57 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9kfavi+545f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kfbbd+disi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23561 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mgrantwich at y... wrote: > > There's also the issue of Lucius Malfoy. We know that Lucius likes > > Snape. > > We do? How do we know that? We don't know directly that LM likes Snape, but we do hear from Draco in CoS (and this could be quite unreliable) that LM would approve Snape to be the new headmaster. If Snape was a Deatheater, he certainly must have rubbed shoulders with the elder Malfoy. What his opinion of him is we can only guess. We only know what Draco believes. Therefore I would say: either LM has a good opinion of Snape, or he is doing a very, very good job of keeping his real feelings in check. The latter would not surprise me. --Suzanne From indigo at indigosky.net Fri Aug 3 23:33:12 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 23:33:12 -0000 Subject: An HP experience in the mundane Message-ID: <9kfcbo+a924@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23562 I was getting on the bus to take me from the plane to the terminal when I landed in Toronto this afternoon. I spotted a teenage girl with Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. I struck up a conversation with her; why not, I knew we had something in common! She beamed and pointed out her mother, elsewhere on the bus. Her mother was the *other* person I'd spotted reading Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. I laughed, and the girl said "We knew you were a fan, we've been admiring your coat!" The girl's mom waved at me and mouthed "nice coat!" [It's my denim Hogwarts logo jacket] I didn't get to talk to the mom, but the girl is a H/G shipper and didn't mind a slight bit of spoilage, so now she knows about the potential for the H/R/H triangle. She's quite tickled. That about made my day, especially given how it had started out. I wasn't supposed to be on the flight I was on, but the traffic was so bad I missed the one I had the ticket for. So I guess everything does happen for a reason. Indigo From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 23:35:14 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 23:35:14 -0000 Subject: Return of Snape the spy In-Reply-To: <9kfbbd+disi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kfcfi+von1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23563 >>> There's also the issue of Lucius Malfoy. We know that Lucius >>> likes Snape. >> We do? How do we know that? > We don't know directly that LM likes Snape, but we do hear from > Draco in CoS (and this could be quite unreliable) that LM would > approve Snape to be the new headmaster. I think it is unreliable. Draco could simply have been sucking up to Snape (who is after all the Head of his own House) with no idea or concern about what his father felt about the matter. Or Draco (who is after all a kid) is revealing the limits of his horizons in assuming that his father shares his views or can be persuaded to share them. Personally I'm with the sucking-up option; it's so much more Draco. As for the two of them knowing each other because they were both DE's: we know that many DE's knew each other's identity (or how would they have clumped together to torture the Muggles at the Quiddich Cup finals?) but that doesn't mean they all know each other. Somehow the very socially conscious Malfoys don't strike me as the kind of people who'd welcome Snape as anything closer than an acquaintance. From DinaYS at aol.com Sat Aug 4 00:07:31 2001 From: DinaYS at aol.com (DinaYS at aol.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 00:07:31 -0000 Subject: FAQF -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <9kelml+7uk5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kfec3+kjhs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23564 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: Okay, i am a kindergarten teacher who has dealt with kids of a lot of different ages, so my thopught may have more to do with the appeal to children than adults. i havw read a lot of childrens literaturew and for the most part, hp is one of the best series. alot of current series that are out there are crap. A lot are relly good, bnut a lot are crap. The characters in Harry Potter are real. Okay, obviously not real, but a lot more realistsic that chareacters in a lot of kiddie lit. I know that sounds crazy b/c theye are magic, but look beyond that. Who of us out there have not felt like one or more of the characters at some point. I know that because my older sister is beautiful and smart and never had toi work very hard for good grades, attention, etc. I on the other hand have more stupid medical and learning issues than i want to think of. . I grew up with a lot of living in her shadow, or someone elses. I often sympathize with Ron on a variety of levels because i know what it is like to never be seen as number one or often to never even be seen. I thinmk that the majoriuty of poeple just have a grewat understanding of some character or another. Look, Harry Potter saved the world and continues to battle a very evi;l force, and is still not so popular, his popularity waxes and wanes with his acheivements, esp. in Quidditch. ATHis is normal middle school behavior. Kids can be cruel and who of us has not had a Malfoy in their lives. As an adult reader i see the series as much of an escape. You can see it in the eyes of the people reading. They are lost and not thinking about anything else. What a wonderful feeling. Okay i will stiop abbling, Dina From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Sat Aug 4 00:13:34 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 20:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Alohomora In-Reply-To: <9k4q5m+rve@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23565 On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 rcraigharman at hotmail.com wrote: > > But on the level of form, I really don't see how one could derive > > 'aloha' from 'alo?'. The vowels aren't the same. (The first o in > > 'alo?' is short, the second long.) 'Alaho' I could see as being > > related, but not 'aloha'. > > But it isn't "alohA", it's "alohOmora". Notice the vowels: You're absolutely right. Too carried away by liking the 'aloha' etymology, I was. :) That doesn't change the fact that 'alo?' has a *short* o first. In 'alohomora', that first o is long. It may seem trivial, but the quanity of a vowel really makes a big difference in an etymology, even of the constructed sort JKR is producing. 'Aloho' just cannot come from the imperative form. If you wanted to posit an incorrect active form 'al?' -- a first person singular present active indicative, like the other spells (accio, etc.) -- I'd be much more willing to grant that could be a source. I don't think it would make any difference that the verb is deponent in Greek; did Latin deponents survive into modern Romance languages, or ancient Greek into modern, anyway? JKR doesn't seem concerned with that kind of formal nicety in the other spellwords. > Moreover, just because the Greek doesn't have the aspiration, doesn't > mean that JKR didn't add the h to make it obvious that the vowels > are distinct. Otherwise, the result would have been: > > Aloomora. > > which every reader is going to pronounce with a long "u" sound, > instead of two distinct o's. I just don't think she would've felt compelled to use 'alo?' in that exact form. And as I said, the quantity of the vowels becomes wrong by adding an (orthographic) 'h' to mark their separateness, as big a pronunciation problem, in its way, as a long u for a long o. I don't suppose 'homora' has any meaning? > As for the meaning of the verb "aloo", no, it isn't the most common > verb meaning to "leave", but if she liked the sound of it, why not? Why not, indeed. It's possible, as I said before. I think it's mostly the analysis of it coming from the imperative form that bothers me, due to the lengthened vowel. I actually rather like using 'al?'... --jen, who was out of town for a few days and thus couldn't respond sooner :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From frantyck at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 00:38:08 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 00:38:08 -0000 Subject: FAQ -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <9kfab9+6mqu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kfg5g+t0kp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23566 hello all. my first post. i think pippin has it. what hp does is fulfill a wish most people seem to have for a bit of magic in the world. a lot of fiction attempts to do the same thing, to create an alternate world in companionship with this one. tolkien does it, and so does roald dahl (imo, a greater author than rowling... sorry, sorry). tolkien's world is immense and complete, dauntingly so. it is also completely unlike our own world. dahl's books perch just within our own mundane world, making it magical in a heady, shortlived way. it's a world recreated inside the mind of the reader. rowling, on the other hand, wrests control pretty thoroughly. the world she creates is here, around us, yet we are excluded from it. that exclusion is awfully painful, especially when one realises that growing up is a process of recognising limits, and separating the imaginary from the real. her world is also dynamic, it is going somewhere, there is a mystery and a story. there is a single great conflict, two forces contending. how could any story fail to be attractive when it has adult conflict (second world war, the good war, etc.) waged within an intimate world? intimate world: school. the place where excitement and boredom are rich and continuous, a hothouse world where you know the same few individuals in the same contexts. it's a simple world, with the lines clearly drawn. one often wishes for a reason to shine, a reason to rise above oneself; an all-or-nothing cause like that of dumbledore and all the good wizards and witches against the dark forces. in such a context, it is easy to choose sides, to accept a call to action. the "real" world is not often like that. i wonder why *children* read these books which such avidity. why adults should find the hp world atractive is, to my mind, pretty clear! oddly enough, rowling isn't, to my mind, a particularly brilliant writer. her plots are contrived and occasionally clumsy. her characterisation is often flat (but cleverly sufficient for her purposes). her villain isn't very scary. i mean, could one be as flippant about tolkien's sauron as we are about "voldie?" she leaves gaping holes -- which is also a strength. but she hits all the right spots. what she does is take elements from everyone's childhood world, throwing in a little of the medieval (why is the european medieval world so fascinating to us?): dragons, spells, wands, broomsticks, etc. etc. and tie them all together seamlessly. she doesn't have to create, to make the reader strain to believe, he/she is already aware, deep down, of all these elements. i don't know how relevant this is, but: when i was about 11 years old, i had a dream which involved my flying about, as a skill that i was born with -- quite normal. when i woke up, i was shattered, because i realised that i'd always believed somewhere deep down that i COULD fly. dreaming the dream had broken that illusion. more than my 2 cents' rrishi From maidne at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 00:53:48 2001 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 00:53:48 -0000 Subject: Quick-Quotes Quill Message-ID: <9kfh2s+32r3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23567 Hi all, I'm a new member and this is my first post. I've seen several postings here about the marauder's map, but a search didn't turn up any about the quick-quotes quill, so here goes. I was listening (again) today to the audio tapes of book 4, and it just occurred to me that several of the comments made about the MM and the magic involved also apply to the QQQ. The quill wrote completely on it's own, most of what it wrote was only marginally related to what Harry was actually saying, but it knew quite a bit about Harry -- scar, dead parents, green eyes. I guess there's no real point to this message other than to say that maybe the magic involved in those two items is somewhat similar. Another one of those things that "thinks for itself" with no discernable place to keep it's brain. Susan From usergoogol at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 00:58:19 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 00:58:19 -0000 Subject: Magic in the Bible In-Reply-To: <9cmgse+recj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kfhbb+pk2a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23568 Oddly, its okay when Saints do Magic and Divination. However, THEY call it miracles and divination. ~A short but wise post by UserGoogol~ From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 01:37:32 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 01:37:32 -0000 Subject: FAQF -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <9kfec3+kjhs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kfjks+hbbh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23569 Well, I started this thread so I probably should add something to it. :) I have mused on the question, "Why is Harry Potter so popular?", for some time. There are some that say it is only popular because it is well marketed. Yes, there is little doubt that it IS well marketed, but so are many other things in our world. How does this explain their popularity in places around the world where marketing is very primitive or even non-existent? The books are well-written. So what? Being well written does not save a literary work from being trash. It certainly doesn't explain its popularity. I believe it simply comes down to story telling. Joanne Kathleen Rowling is a master storyteller. She is like a master chef planning a meal. She carefully plots out every detail. The various courses flow smoothly from one to another. Each is a feast for the eye and a symphony for the palate. When we are through we leave the table completely satisfied, hoping to return soon again. Flow, now that is a good word. Notice how well her work flows? It doesn't get caught up in literary ebbies. It doesn't suddenly stop in midstream to deal with something that has nothing to do with the story. These ebbies can take many forms. Gratuitous violence and passionate love screens are popular ones. Excessive use of flowery language is another. So is preaching and moralizing. The journey down her story stream goes from pleasant pools to fast flowing exciting rapids and back again, never allowing the reader to get bored. There are no waterfalls. Rowling certainly likes to spring big surprises, but the reader isn't left with a sense of going over a cliff. Rowling never takes the easy way out. The characters are not solely good, bad, evil, or righteous. They all, with the sole exception of Voldemort, are combinations of shades of meanings and actions. How to explain the transition of Severus Snape? Snape began the series as simply a mean, nasty guy that nobody could figure out why Dumbledore kept on. By the end of book four, he is revealed as a man with strong character, who deserves our respect. Yet nothing has changed. He hasn't changed. Only our perception has changed. Neville Longbottom is another. Through most of the books he is a somewhat comic figure. Many people questioned why he was in Griffindor house. But by the end book four, he is shown to have a great deal of courage and fortitude. To return to the meal analogy, Rowling doesn't pile all of the food on your plate all at once. This is no Thanksgiving dinner. She gradually serves up her delights one at a time so that each morsel can be dwelt over and savoured. She slower but surely draws back the curtain on her world, showing us piece after exquisitely crafted piece, sometimes not letting us realize their individual worth until after they are all presented. She is an artist, pure and simple. So why are they popular? I have no answer. Marcus. From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Aug 4 02:05:45 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 02:05:45 -0000 Subject: FAQ -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <3B6B17D3.34EC3AC7@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9kfl9p+73qv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23570 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: *Why* are they so successful, among children and adults alike? > I am surprised to hear that this has not been discussed in detail here. That is a question I have wanted to ask myself. But alas! I have the answer! To me, it is quite simple: I WANT TO LIVE IN HARRY'S WORLD. Adults, just as much as children, want a little magic in their lives. We all wish at times that we could be invisible (and listen in on our bosses' private meetings - bwahaha!), or fly anywhere without a plane. We all want the option of becoming an animal at will and to be able to have discussions with paintings and to see out favorite photos wave at us and move around. Every day life can be so blah, but in Harry's world, there is every day life plus more. I also adore JKR's humor. Writers occasionally get lost in detailed descriptions and complicated plots and can't find their way back because they forgot to have fun with it. I laughed out loud many times in all four books (can't we all picture Percy dancing naked in Dobby's tea cozy? ). JKR must be a hoot in real life. Last, and this is what others have mentioned, JKR has spun a web of characters, places and mystery that just keeps us all hanging on. But really, I want to live in that world. When I was a kid, we had a big front hall closet in the house where I grew up. I used to crawl in and hit the back wall, disappointed that it was still there. I wanted to be able to go to Narnia, see. I feel the same way with HP: I want to find the way in and I do, every time I read the series. --jenny from ravenclaw, who has dreamed many times that she is at Hogwarts and has always been disappointed to wake up *********************************************** From frantyck at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 02:32:27 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 02:32:27 -0000 Subject: FAQF -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <9kfjks+hbbh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kfmrr+tv7l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23571 prefectmarcus wrote: > Rowling never takes the easy way out. The characters are not solely good, bad, evil, or righteous. They all, with the sole exception of Voldemort, are combinations of shades of meanings and actions. that is true... but even voldemort wasn't always evil, was he? i don't understand the origins of voldemort; in CoS he's a teenager, but somehow his consciousness is not that of a teenager, even though the tom riddle harry sees when he falls into riddle's diary *is* a child. was he always, or did he become? prefectmarcus wrote: How to explain the transition of Severus Snape? ... Only our perception has changed. > Neville Longbottom is another. ... by the end book four, he is shown to have a great deal of courage and fortitude. interesting point. i think this may be because rowling isn't the omniscient narrator; she relays events as they unfold, never stepping ahead. so, what the characters appear to be like depends entirely on the way they are *shown* to behave. prefectmarcus wrote: >She gradually serves up her delights one at a time so that each morsel can be dwelt over and savoured. She slower but surely draws back the curtain on her world, showing us piece after exquisitely crafted piece, sometimes not letting us realize their individual worth until after they are all presented. one thing she does show fine taste in is not overplaying any one element or good idea. there's a lot of clever background detail, such as butterbeer and the jelly-legs curse, broomstick servicing kits, etc. that she puts in but doesn't go on about. prefectmarcus wrote: > So why are they popular? I have no answer. not true! rrishi From john at walton.to Sat Aug 4 02:27:17 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 22:27:17 -0400 Subject: You really, REALLY should vote in the Movie Poll In-Reply-To: <9kfl9p+73qv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23572 Hi all, Just a friendly, non-ADMIN reminder that, out of our nearly 2000 members, only 193 of us have indicated our preference regarding what to do about movie discussion. Let me remind you of the options -- Keep discussions here, and use MOVIE prefix and spoilers --current vote total 86 Create a temporary HPfGU-Movie list (just around the time of release) --current vote total 26 Create a permanent HPfGU-Movie list --current vote total 73 Move all MOVIE discussion to OT Chatter --current vote total 8 I'm sure almost everyone on this list has an opinion about what we should be doing with the Movie discussions. Have your say! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=729738 --John __s_c_h_n_o_o_g_l_e_._c_o_m___________ John Walton -- Crazy Ivan ivan at schnoogle.com =| Schnoogle.com, part of the FictionAlley.org community |= * high-quality novel-length fanfiction from some of your favorite authors * run *by* Harry Potter fans *for* Harry Potter fans * talk to your favorite authors using Schnoogle.com messageboards ____________s_c_h_n_o_o_g_l_e_._c_o_m_ From mlleelizabeth at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 03:14:08 2001 From: mlleelizabeth at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Davey) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 20:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAQF -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <9kfjks+hbbh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010804031408.57109.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23573 Hi y'all, It's been a while seen you've seen me. Sorry 'bout that. Thanks to the faq writers for all of their hard work and dedication. I'm certain the faqs will be a valuable research and obsession feeding tool for many of us! I love the subject of the books' appeal and I'm very glad we're discussing it. I'll even risk repeating what others have said to add my insights. The four books we've had the good fortune to read so far are well written, yes. However, I think there's a lot more to their appeal than that. I happened to pick up SS/PS a little over a year ago because HP was the theme for the program of a charity show I'm involved in and I wanted to get the inside jokes. I was completely addicted within hours, and it takes a heck of a lot more than good writing to suck me into a world the way I've been sucked into the Potterverse. I've been sucked in because Ms. Rowling touched my soul. The books especially appeal to the part of me that dreams of flying and chocolate as a cure for almost everything and magical means to overcome everything from the great evils that threaten the world to the little annoyances that plague me on a day to day basis. Ms. Rowling has created a universe where magic is believable to the point that my hope is renewed. I realize that's a pretty strong statement, and I mean it. I'll try to avoid burdening y'all with too much personal baggage, but I will share that I identify with Harry in that until very recently I was figuratively an orphan with not much in the way of a family. I also suffer from PTSD, and I see symptoms of the same in Harry. I also see Harry overcoming both of those things in a realistically-fantastic way. I believe that a lot of us are able derive vicarious satisfaction when Harry sneaks Sirius to safety, defeats Riddle with Fawlkes' help, escapes from Voldy at the end of GOF and blows up Aunt Marge. I can promise you there a quite a few people I've wanted to blow up in my lifetime! There are several other characters in the books who also offer comfort and support. Imagine having Gred and Forge supply you with tongue ton toffee to give to the obnoxious person in the office down the hall. When you need encouragement to deal with a difficult task, visualize Remus Lupin coaching you. If it's sterner stuff you require, Minerva McGonagall will help you stay on task. For caring and concern you've got Molly Weasley and when you need a fun and goofy parent, Arthur Weasley fills the bill. I could go on and on ... Actually, I think it might be fun to do a compare and contrast with Jungian archetypes thing with the characters in the books ... but I'm a little weird that way The books appeal to me because there is so very much to the Potterverse that makes me feel good and there is so very much to the Potterverse that makes me think. Love & Light, *Elizabeth* __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From relliott at jvlnet.com Sat Aug 4 03:49:08 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 22:49:08 -0500 Subject: A thought about Marauder's Map References: <996886705.1701.13826.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c11c98$6b60d780$75b291d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23574 Do we actually know when George and Fred obtained Marauder's Map? If they had it in their possession during SS/PS, what do you think it would have said about Professor Quirrell and Lord Voldemort possessing the same body? I am just trying to anticipate future scenarios. A side note: Lupin said that in PoA that he saw Wormtail on the map and that is why he knew he was still alive. If Hermione would have had the map she would have discovered earlier that Rita Skeeter was an Animagi. I guess Marauder's Map is a really important aspect of the story. I wonder if Lord Voldemort knows that it exists. From joym999 at aol.com Sat Aug 4 04:36:54 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 04:36:54 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #11 -- Hard Logic Message-ID: <9kfu56+9qae@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23575 Hello all, and welcome to this weeks contest. Since the last logic puzzle was so popular, I am giving you another one. However, I have to warn you that this one is much harder. It also requires some knowledge of the HP books, so dont give it to Grandma Gladys who loves puzzles unless she has read HP, too. Remember, do NOT post the answers to the list. Email them to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com, or to the above address. (And then email them again if you dont receive an acknowledgement from me, since the email function from the web page often does not work.) Here you go: Peeves the Poltergeist has gone to each of the Hogwarts common rooms and stolen a wand from at least one student from each house. Professor McGonagall finds the missing wands hidden inside a musty old Wizard Chess Trophy, but she can't remember which wand belongs to which student. Given the clues below, can you return the right wand to the right student, and also find the House and year in school of each student witch and wizard? 1. The five students who are missing wands are: a Slytherin 5th year; a 3rd year girl; two boys named John and Neil (neither of whom are in Gryffindor); and Penny. 2. The five wands (from shortest to longest) are the oak wand, the 8?" wand, the wand with the unicorn hair, Amanda's wand, and the wand made of beech. 3. Of the five students, all three girls have longer wands than either of the boys. 4. The shortest wand belongs to a 1st year student, and the longest wand is 15" and contains a dragon heartstring. 5. The mahogany wand belongs to Amanda, who is playing on her house Quidditch team for the second year, after being a reserve for 2 years. 6. Penny, who owns the longest wand of the five, is the first girl from her house to be made Head Girl since Hermione Granger. 7. Neil, whose 7" wand is the shortest of the five, is in the same house that his cousin Hannah Abbott was in. 8. The Ravenclaw 4th year's wand is 1?" longer than the shortest wand, and the Slytherin 5th year's is 3 ?" shorter than the longest wand. 9. The wands of the 2 girls from the same house are made of beech and maple. 10. The oak wand has the same magical core as Harry Potter's wand. 11. The owner of the wand with the veela hair replaced Cho Chang on his house's Quidditch team. 12. Amy and the girl with the wand containing troll skin are both hoping to become Quidditch captains next year. 13. The 9" wand is not the one made of walnut. Good luck! Please submit your entry by midnight, Wednesday, August 8. --Joywitch From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 4 04:38:58 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 21:38:58 -0700 Subject: WHY HP is so popular - Professors' First Names - Tom Riddle - Calvinism Message-ID: <3B6B7C62.2FE7A85E@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23576 prefectmarcus wrote: > What I want to know is WHY the books are so popular. pippin: > I think Peter S. Beagle said, writing about the > Lord of the Rings, that certain books have the > power to draw you into a world of their own, which > seems to have been going on before you got there, > and will continue to exist after you leave. (and goes on to explain that HP is such a book) jenny from ravenclaw wrote: > I am surprised to hear that this has not been > discussed in detail here. (snip) > To me, it is quite simple: I WANT > TO LIVE IN HARRY'S WORLD. (snip) > I also adore JKR's humor. DinaYS wrote: > Who of us out there have not felt like one or more of the characters at some point. Elizabeth Davey wrote: > Actually, I think it might be fun to do a > compare and contrast with Jungian archetypes > thing with the characters in the books ... I feel sure that this question has been asked on-list before, altho' maybe not on THIS list (there are SO MANY HP lists!), usually by someone who needed the answer for their English homework essay. I don't recall anyone giving really definitive answers on list, but sometimes some people on this list have posted links to essays that maybe appeared in magazines or something. I seem to recall that one of those articles, written after PoA before GoF, making the point that us grown-ups have no right to enjoy HP as it belongs to thirteen year olds, made statements similar to Dina's, about how miraculously well JKR understands being a young teen, such as Dementors clearly do exist and are the cause of those fits of moodiness that parents get so angry because you can't give a logical explanation for. I seem to recall that another one of those articles (was it one about how HP is okay for Christians?) said that HP and LOTR were the only examples of what JRRT called 'mythopoesis', which is creating an entire world. The essay said that C.S.Lewis deliberately did NOT create a new world, but set out to include all the already existing myths from Father Christmas to I dunno what. One of his examples was at the Burrow, Harry walked from here to there, passing several things strewn on the floor including a pack of Exploding Snap cards, and he said there was absolutely no need to mention the Exploding Snap cards, they had nothing to do with the plot or the symbolism, but it is that kind of unnecessary realistic detail that gives HP its feeling of being an entire real world. Yes, me too, I want to live in Harry's world (the world that JKR makes us believe exists with or without us, as per Pippin, above), but WHY? It is a recognisably imperfect world, threatened by terrorism and Dark Wizardry, containing smugly stupid politicians (Fudge) and evil people of great influence/power (Lucius Malfoy) and bullies (Draco in one way, Crabbe & Goyle in another) and people being idolized simply for athletic skills (Bagman) and poverty and incurable disease (such as the madness that the Longbottoms suffer from)... (I adjust my fantasies so that I am not poor like the Weasleys or a near-Squib like Neville seems to be and I have friends there....) Well, because of the magic, as Jenny said: I can sit here and read HP and watch magic not solving any real problems for the characters and still want magic to solve my problems! And because it is a *charming* world, in which whimsy and puns are founding principals (puns like the names Diagon Alley and Knockturn Alley) and it has a snug, secure little economy of small businesses in which no one ever gets laid-off or goes out of business and it doesn't matter whether Ollivander's wand shop or Florean Fortescue's ice cream shop never turn a profit, the shops will stay in business and the owners will never go hungry or homeless, and as Jenny said, there is lots of humor. When mundanes ask WHY am I, a chronological grown-up, so interested in Harry Potter, I tell them that there is a lot of funny humor in the books. But there are a LOT of funny books that don't earn this sort of devotion, not to mention that 'funny' seems odd praise of a book of serious moral thought about good and evil, and the suffering of innocents such as the death of Cedric and the imprisonment of Sirius. So I have often said that JKR MUST be touching something archetypal, because otherwise this story wouldn't have swept the world like it has. Which sends me off on a digression about STAR WARS, which IIRC also swept the world, and George Lucas SAID that he had deliberately constructed it according to the archetypal Hero's Journey according to Joseph Campbell. But anyone can write a book that puts Jungian or Campbellian archetypes through their well-rehearsed paces in a mechanical and boring kind of way. STAR WARS needed those fabulous visuals that were lovingly copied from previous movies, and whatever psychology those visuals were plugged into. HP needed -- what? The clichs of magic? Charm? Humor? Believable characters whom we care about, even love? So I expended all these words and STILL don't have an answer, but I wonder whether HP touches on a timelessly human archetype or one specific to our time in history. The latter resembles a thread that lumen dei once made, that Harry is about our culture of unfathered people's search for a father. I might take that in a less literal direction than she did, such as the father being searched for is not James, but God.... Slyph asked: > --What are all the professor's first names? JKR has not told us all the professors' first names -- in fact, I am not sure she has told us Professor Sinistra's *gender*. She has told us Albus Dumbledore, Minerva McGonagall, Severus Snape, Poppy Pomfrey, Rubeus Hagrid but not first names for Flitwick, Sprout, Hooch, Vector, Sinistra, nor Quirrell IIRC. Kavitha wrote: > However, I do think Riddle would want to > father a child, not through any paternal > instinct involving caring and warm fuzzy > feelings, but because he's just the kind > of guy to want hellspawn to carry on his work. He shows so much interest in achieving immortality for himself that I doubt he has any interest to spare for wanting to immortalize his genes. Altho' I can EASILY imagine him arranging to father a son if he found that part of one of his immortality spells caused for the mage to sacrifice (kill) his own son. > Of course, I can't help but wonder if his > hatred of muggles is due to his father leaving > when told that Tom's mother was a witch, and his > sexism, if he is a sexist, could come from feeling > betrayed by his mother's death. \ That's what I think too, except I go on to wonder whether the story that young Tom was told and believes is really the true story: maybe Tom Senior never married the girl he had a short fling and never knew she was a witch, and either abandoned her when she told him she was pregnant or didn't even stick around long enough to find out that she was pregnant. But his mother or his mother's parents or the people at the orphanage or someone didn't want to tell him he was born out of wedlock, so originated the story that we have already heard. Mike the Goat wrote: > And if you'd like to debate whether the way Jo > envisions the moral attributes of the four Hogwarts > houses suggests a sort of subliminal Calvinism I don't know enough about Calvinism to understand what you are suggesting, so please explain. What I have heard about Calvinism is 1) predestination, 2) justification by faith not works. ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 05:48:29 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 05:48:29 -0000 Subject: WHY HP is so popular In-Reply-To: <3B6B7C62.2FE7A85E@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9kg2be+7kt1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23577 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > Which sends me off on a digression about STAR WARS, which IIRC also > swept the world, and George Lucas SAID that he had deliberately > constructed it according to the archetypal Hero's Journey according to > Joseph Campbell. But anyone can write a book that puts Jungian or > Campbellian archetypes through their well-rehearsed paces in a > mechanical and boring kind of way. STAR WARS needed those fabulous > visuals that were lovingly copied from previous movies, and whatever > psychology those visuals were plugged into. HP needed -- what? The > clich?s of magic? Charm? Humor? Believable characters whom we care > about, even love? Hmmm, you might be on to something. I am old enough to remember the coming of Star Wars. I was a Junior in College. I am also remember the dismal state of the cinema then. It was the era of the anti-hero. Shows such as "A Clockwork Orange" and "One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest" to name just two, sought to protray life as a misery. Even fun movies had criminals as the heros, "The Sting" and "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid", are representive. Movie companies had forgotten the basics and were putting out message films. Then along came "Star Wars". The good guys were good. The bad guys were bad. It wasn't because their mommies have been mean to them, or "society" had dealt them a raw deal. They were bad because they wanted to be bad. The good guys struggled against impossible odds to win against unassailable evil. Besides that, the movie was FUN!!! I remember so well the Time review of "Star Wars". It ended with this quote, "Thank-you, George Lucas, for making movies fun again." Here it is, 25 years later and I still remember that nearly word for word. Flash forward those 25 years. What is the state of Adult literature today? Where are the plots, the characters, the FUN? Where are the pure, unadulterated stories? What is the state of Children's literature. Everything is dumbed down, sanitized, and shortened. The Adults aren't real in the books. Neither are the kids, for that matter. Everything is formula. Everything is cookie-cutter, stamp out the same plots with a bit of a twist to make things different. If it's supposed to be for adults, throw in some sex and/or violence. Some anger is nice too. Sprinkle that around. Then along comes Harry. (Sounds like a song, doesn't it? :) ) Suddenly good old fashioned story-telling is back in style. It has been missing for so long, we lap it up. Is this why? Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 05:55:54 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 05:55:54 -0000 Subject: Magic in the Bible In-Reply-To: <9kfhbb+pk2a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kg2pa+jh1a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23578 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > Oddly, its okay when Saints do Magic and Divination. However, THEY call it miracles and divination. > > ~A short but wise post by UserGoogol~ Oddly, it's okay when police do kidnapping and theft. However, THEY call it arresting and fining. Marcus From nethilia at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 06:56:40 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 23:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sorting Hat Stool/School Song In-Reply-To: <996886705.1701.13826.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010804065640.76804.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23579 Okay, I don't think anyone has mentioned this anywhere, but I noticed it while reading through SS intesivly to match scenes in my fic. Whe Harry is Sorted in SS, it's mentioned that the stool has four legs. However, when he misses the Sorting in PoA he notes Flitwick is carrying away a three legged stool. And the stool still has three legs. My question is: Is this a Flint? Or could something have happened to our poor little Hat Stool in the CoS sorting that we didn't see or know about? Mebbe someone broke a leg off or something... Also, that first year everone sings the school song. Why Never again? Did Dumbledore think about the awful cacophony of all those people signing in whatever tune and tone they wanted and decided this was a bad idea? (I doubt this, he clapped hard after the song.) But still... Meh, back to writing about Ravenclaw first years. --Neth, who is near finishing the last SS parallel chapter in about two to three weeks and can now get to the meat of the fic ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- 65% obsessed with Harry Potter **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From frantyck at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 07:36:43 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 07:36:43 -0000 Subject: WHY HP is so popular - Professors' First Names - Tom Riddle - Calvinism In-Reply-To: <3B6B7C62.2FE7A85E@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9kg8mb+2fdq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23580 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > So I have often said that JKR MUST be touching something archetypal, > because otherwise this story wouldn't have swept the world like it has. oddly, i was just discussing something this-ish with a friend: it occurred to us that in appropriating all these pre-existing ideas of magic and so forth rowling is, partly by the sheer impact of millions of her books, fundamentally reshaping what those ideas mean to us. consider "magic." what that word conveyed has been altered by magic as it is in the potter books: no longer something shortlived that grants wishes, as in cinderella (the first example that comes to mind). what's a "goblin" now? what is a "potion?" a wand? an elf? a broomstick? even a wizard or a witch? when you think abstractly of these things, is your conception of them shaped by what you've read in hp? i think this is fascinating: the power of rowling's sweeping, but still modest, enclosure of the entire magical universe -- medieval or modern, chinese or african, leprechaun or djinn -- within the Potterverse. it's a revolution of sorts. everything has a place here, and thus everything is tweaked by the assumptions of the hp universe. is this true in general, or is this just because i'm a resident of the Potterverse? if kids grow up with rowling magic rather than rapunzel and sleeping beauty, does that strike you as fascinating... or potentially just a teensy bit sad? i'm not sure! rrishi From polterchair at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 4 08:09:42 2001 From: polterchair at yahoo.ca (Rain Tor) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 04:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic in the Bible In-Reply-To: <9kg2pa+jh1a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010804080942.94527.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23581 hahaha Nice Marcus, Its ok when the government subsidises tech-businesses and cuts welfare; however they call it defense spending and reducing inflation. um.. ya. but this still is the Harry Potter Club, so... I like Professor Snape. and I also read an article in the news about British Witches ("real" ones)who have decided to curse the Harry Potter movie because, they think JK has the whole broomstick-riding thing backwards, literally. Apparantly the surviving depictions of witches on broomsticks that date to the 16th century, place the Broom part, up front. Indeed, perhaps the reorientation of the broomstick, so that the rider faced the stick end, in the witch archetype was only a recent development. (one that had to interpolate the discovery of aerodynamics and principles of propulsion, I presume) --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote:
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote:
> Oddly, its okay when Saints do Magic and Divination. However, THEY
call it miracles and divination.
>
> ~A short but wise post by UserGoogol~

Oddly, it's okay when police do kidnapping and theft. However, THEY
call it arresting and fining.

Marcus
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_______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 09:42:06 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:42:06 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Re: Magic in the Bible References: <9kg2pa+jh1a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <008b01c11cc9$b9ff3900$163570c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 23582 Usergoogol: <> Marcus: <> Rain Tor: <> *** Hey...my sides are splitting, but can we stop this now, please? These comments have nothing to do with Harry Potter and nothing (or very little) to do with "Magic in The Bible"; they are clearly OT. This is a busy list and, if people wish to read or avoid certain topics, it's helpful if the content bears some relationship to the header of the message and, naturally, to Harry Potter. Thanks Neil/Flying Ford Anglia Moderator Team From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 10:46:36 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 12:46:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Calvinism References: <3B6B7C62.2FE7A85E@wicca.net> Message-ID: <012801c11cd2$bc8f6ab0$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 23583 Catlady mewed, > I don't know enough about Calvinism to understand what you are > suggesting, so please explain. What I have heard about Calvinism is 1) > predestination, 2) justification by faith not works. I was referring to (1). The school division, with the good guys in Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff and Gryffindor and the bad guys in Slytherin, suggests a kind of predestination. Put roughly , predestination teaches that some humans have been endowed with grace, while others haven't. Those who have will find their way to the sheep fold; those who haven't will roast with the goats. . Back to the Potterverse: I'm still wondering whether the same applies. There are a number of signs that the people who go to G-R-H always turn out good, whereas those who go to S always turn out bad. If so, Potter lives in a strange place. Distinguishing between the elect and the reprobate has always proved tricky in our world, since only God really knows what's on the books--but in Harry's world you would just have to check out a guy's school transcripts for a read on his fundamental moral status. That leads to the two questions on my mind: (1) Is Potter's world really this way? I don't see Pettigrew as a sign to the contrary, since there's a good chance that he'll repent of his evil in time for a hero's burial. (Calvinism doesn't say the elect can't meander off the straight and narrow--they just have a way of finding their home again.) That Percy is obnoxious and Justin Finch-Fletchley callow is even less of a problem. ("Elect" and "pleasant" aren't meant to be synonyms.) I'd say Snape is the closest thing to a negative test case--but only Jo and Amanda can figure out what's happening in his twisted psyche. Still, this question admits to a lot of debate. (NB: all the sorting hat says about Slytherins is that they're cunning, power-hungry and ambitious, not that they're evil.) (2) Would it bother us if the people in Harry's world have a fixed--and manifest--moral destiny? Would Jo's world be more or less appealing to us if we knew that the canon Draco is basically and inalterably evil and headed for the sulfurous pit? Would we be disappointed to assume that Harry not only won't wander over to the dark side, but *can't* because he's basically and inalterably good? This may be more of a philosophical question than an aesthetic one, but it would certainly impinge on the books' universal appeal. Those are the questions that are bugging me. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From indigo at indigosky.net Sat Aug 4 11:42:30 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:42:30 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat Stool/School Song In-Reply-To: <20010804065640.76804.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kgn36+gvki@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23584 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Nethilia De Lobo wrote: > Okay, I don't think anyone has mentioned this > anywhere, but I noticed it while reading through SS > intesivly to match scenes in my fic. Whe Harry is > Sorted in SS, it's mentioned that the stool has four > legs. However, when he misses the Sorting in PoA he > notes Flitwick is carrying away a three legged stool. > And the stool still has three legs. > > My question is: Is this a Flint? Or could something > have happened to our poor little Hat Stool in the CoS > sorting that we didn't see or know about? Mebbe > someone broke a leg off or something... That's possible -- or it could be that Harry was so nervous his first year he didn't get the number of legs on the stool right. > > Also, that first year everone sings the school song. > Why Never again? Did Dumbledore think about the awful > cacophony of all those people signing in whatever tune > and tone they wanted and decided this was a bad idea? > (I doubt this, he clapped hard after the song.) But > still... > Hmm. Well, they missed the CoS sorting, so it's possible the song was sung then and they didn't see it. And during PoA, there was the matter of Sirius Black to be considered. They probably put off the singing of the song due to the seriousness of the situation. In GoF, they probably forewent the song because Durmstrang and Beauxbatons were there -- and likely they didn't get to sing their school songs, so it would've been a sign of bad hosting to sing the Hogwarts song. How's that? :) Indigo From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Aug 4 13:47:30 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 13:47:30 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat Stool/School Song In-Reply-To: <9kgn36+gvki@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kgudi+boog@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23585 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > In GoF, they probably forewent the song because Durmstrang and > Beauxbatons were there -- and likely they didn't get to sing their > school songs, so it would've been a sign of bad hosting to sing the > Hogwarts song.> Excellent reasoning! I just love what we all come up with to justify any possible mistakes on JKR's part. However, in GoF, the two other schools did not arrive until the end of October. Maybe, though, we could say that since the Triwizard Tournament was on Dumbledore's mind, he forgot to lead the school into their individual delightful renditions of the Hogwarts song. :-) --jenny from ravenclaw******************************************* From indigo at indigosky.net Sat Aug 4 14:26:43 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 14:26:43 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat Stool/School Song In-Reply-To: <9kgudi+boog@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kh0n3+uf0s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23586 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > > In GoF, they probably forewent the song because Durmstrang and > > Beauxbatons were there -- and likely they didn't get to sing their > > school songs, so it would've been a sign of bad hosting to sing the > > Hogwarts song.> > > Excellent reasoning! I just love what we all come up with to justify > any possible mistakes on JKR's part. > > However, in GoF, the two other schools did not arrive until the end of > October. Maybe, though, we could say that since the Triwizard > Tournament was on Dumbledore's mind, he forgot to lead the school into > their individual delightful renditions of the Hogwarts song. :-) > > --jenny from ravenclaw******************************************* *sheepish* That's what I get for trying to think before breakfast. But yes, the same reasoning would apply that the Tournament would definitely be a sufficient reason for them not to have sung. Indigo From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 14:52:46 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 15:52:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat Stool/School Song References: <20010804065640.76804.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002a01c11cf5$34a3cd80$db3770c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 23587 Nethilia said: <> I have two suggestions: (1) In PS/SS, it's clear that Dumbledore is delighted by the cacophony of the school song, but that the other teachers don't enjoy it at all. ("Harry noticed that the other teachers' smiles had become rather fixed"). Perhaps, after Harry's first year, they finally persuaded Dumbledore that it was time to put this tradition to bed. Even a Headmaster has to listen to his colleagues once in a while. (2) I'm not sure that the singing of the school song would always happen at the end of the Sorting. In PS/SS, Dumbledore says, "And now, before we go to bed, let us sing the school song!" Perhaps he requests this sporadically, depending on the event and his mood. He was feeling quite playful in PS/SS, but, as has already been noted, he had reason to be feeling more sombre in PoA and GoF. It may be that the other teachers' smiles became fixed, not because they'd been dreading the school song all evening, but because they were caught off guard by Dumbledore's request and were trying hard not to cringe. Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia From jll3sonex at hotmail.com Sat Aug 4 16:49:02 2001 From: jll3sonex at hotmail.com (jll3sonex at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 16:49:02 -0000 Subject: Magic in the Bible / Broomsticks In-Reply-To: <20010804080942.94527.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kh91u+ug5c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23588 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rain Tor wrote: > I also read an article in the news about British > Witches ("real" ones)who have decided to curse the > Harry Potter movie because, they think JK has the > whole broomstick-riding thing backwards, literally. > Apparantly the surviving depictions of witches on > broomsticks that date to the 16th century, place the > Broom part, up front. Indeed, perhaps the > reorientation of the broomstick, so that the rider > faced the stick end, in the witch archetype was only a > recent development. > > (one that had to interpolate the discovery of > aerodynamics and principles of propulsion, I presume) > --- prefectmarcus at y... wrote: I shudder to think about a wizard riding a broomstick through turbulence before the cushioning charms were invented. Urrgh... J. From joannec at hwy.com.au Sat Aug 4 13:15:12 2001 From: joannec at hwy.com.au (Joanne Collins) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 23:15:12 +1000 Subject: COS Chapter 3 Summary - The Burrow Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010804231512.00816210@mail.hwy.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 23589 >Questions: > >1) When Harry thinks that Malfoy mightve sent Dobby, did you think that as >well? Did you think it was a simple joke? Or did you think there was >something more to Dobbys message? I sort of suspected it, if only because Dobby was the Malfoys' er...employee (I refuse to use other possible words. But I did think there was something more to the message. >2) What did you think when first read about Percy acting strange? Did you >automatically think that it was because of a girl? I picked up on it immediately, but I'm afraid I didn't think it was because of a girl. You have to understand, I'm a slash writer and reader, and I wondered, just for a brief time, if it was not a girl, but a boy. I actually wondered if there was any way that JKR could get away with that. I then thought it was something to do with Voldemort or Riddle, but was unsurprised when it turned out to be a girl. >3) How do you think the twins knew how to drive/fly a car? Theyre only >about 14 years old at the time and as wizards, would not be familiar with >it. And they obviously had to use magic to start it up (Ron uses his wand to >start the ignition in Chapter Five). Why didnt the Ministry send them a >warning for using magic during holidays? My theory, they did it by magic. Only explanation that makes any sense. The Ministry might not have known, but other than that...continuity error? >4) Do you think the Weasley twins and Ron really thought they could get away >with Harry just showing up? The excuse Mum, look who turned up in the >night! is a pretty flimsy explanation. Do they really underestimate their >mother that much? Yes, I think they did think they could get away with it. Through charm and cheek and what the yanks call chutzpah. I don't think they underestimate Molly, more that they think they can wrap her around their finger. >5) Do you think the Weasleys always de-gnome the garden by swinging the >gnomes around in circles? Or do you think it was just because it was a >punishment? I'd say that's the way they do it in the Wizarding World. It seems like something they'd do. >6) Obligatory Silly Question: do you want a Chudley Cannons poster? I sure >do... Yeah, I wouldn't mind one. Though I'd rather a shot of Bill Weasley, wearing a pair of cutoff jeans and a smile (okay, and the earring), myself. Joanne. -- Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat. Now, that's a fact. I'll fuckin' kill you. Chuckie (Ben Affleck) Good Will Hunting From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sat Aug 4 17:34:11 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 17:34:11 -0000 Subject: Tuesdays (was Birthdays and calendars) In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05353@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <9khbmj+5tfm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23590 Gwendolyn Grace wrote: >Then again, Halloween is on a > Saturday every year, and the full moons are whenever Jo needs them. Seeing this reminded me... In QTA, the beginnings of Quidditch are recorded in a diary (forgotten the name, book not to hand) in which every entry is a Tuesday. Kennilworthy Whisp remarks that the author only knew one day of the week. Is JKR telling a joke against herself? David From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 17:39:27 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 17:39:27 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat Stool/School Song In-Reply-To: <002a01c11cf5$34a3cd80$db3770c2@c5s910j> Message-ID: <9khc0f+25t3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23591 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" wrote: > Nethilia said: > (2) I'm not sure that the singing of the school song would always happen at > the end of the Sorting. In PS/SS, Dumbledore says, "And now, before we go > to bed, let us sing the school song!" Perhaps he requests this > sporadically, depending on the event and his mood. He was feeling quite > playful in PS/SS, but, as has already been noted, he had reason to be > feeling more sombre in PoA and GoF. It may be that the other teachers' > smiles became fixed, not because they'd been dreading the school song all > evening, but because they were caught off guard by Dumbledore's request and > were trying hard not to cringe. > > Neil That's the best explanation yet on the school song. Thank-you. As to the four versus three-legged stool, maybe they simple switched stools? It's the hat that is important, not the seat. You could just as easily wear it standing up. Perhaps McGonaggall simple grabs the stool that is most handy. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 17:45:06 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 17:45:06 -0000 Subject: WHY HP is so popular - Professors' First Names - Tom Riddle - Calvinism In-Reply-To: <9kg8mb+2fdq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9khcb2+6ua3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23592 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > oddly, i was just discussing something this-ish with a friend: it > occurred to us that in appropriating all these pre-existing ideas of > magic and so forth rowling is, partly by the sheer impact of millions > of her books, fundamentally reshaping what those ideas mean to us. > > rrishi I guess it would depend upon how well read one is. All the old fairy tales are not very consistent. You also have the world of Dungeons and Dragons, and of course Middle Earth. All those authors control their own universe. Even the Potterverse is inconsistent across the wide range of Fanfic. Does this make any sense? Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 17:58:35 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 17:58:35 -0000 Subject: Calvinism In-Reply-To: <012801c11cd2$bc8f6ab0$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <9khd4b+m9ev@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23593 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: > Back to the Potterverse: I'm still wondering whether the same applies. There > are a number of signs that the people who go to G-R-H always turn out good, > whereas those who go to S always turn out bad. If so, Potter lives in a > strange place. Distinguishing between the elect and the reprobate has always > proved tricky in our world, since only God really knows what's on the > books--but in Harry's world you would just have to check out a guy's school > transcripts for a read on his fundamental moral status. > > That leads to the two questions on my mind: (1) Is Potter's world really > this way? No, I don't think so. Two statements of Dumbledore spring to mind. The birth versus what-you-become at the End of GoF. Even more telling, his statement about choices versus abilities in CoS. Before you can make choices, you have to have free will. That kinda puts the kaboosh on Predestination. When Sirius Black was discussing Snape's history he stated words to the effect that Snape hung around a group of Slytherins that almost all turned out to be Death Eaters. That implies that not all Slytherins are evil. If they were, the Sorting Hat would not have seriously considered putting Harry there, AND insist later that Harry would had been successful there. Besides, Slytherin holds no monopoly on narrow-minded and mean-spirited-ness. Remember the problems the good-old Hufflepuffs gave Harry in CoS and GoF? Marcus From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Aug 4 18:18:59 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 18:18:59 -0000 Subject: Calvinism In-Reply-To: <012801c11cd2$bc8f6ab0$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <9kheaj+rh6t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23594 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: a wonderful post, but very long to quote, so I'll cut to the chase > I was referring to (1). The school division, with the good guys in > Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff and Gryffindor and the bad guys in Slytherin, suggests > a kind of predestination. <> > in Harry's world you would just have to check out a guy's school > transcripts for a read on his fundamental moral status. > > That leads to the two questions on my mind: (1) Is Potter's world really this way? Dumbledore doesn't seem to think so...he says that predicting the future is a very difficult business...so how could the Sorting Hat do it? One's Hogwarts house is hardly a predictor of one's fate in the afterlife (all four houses have their ghosts). Potterverse souls can be lost (to dementors), shared, possessed...can they be saved? We don't know. It's clear that the Potterites believe that innocent people can be attacked and devoured by Dementors...I think a Calvinist would have trouble with that. 2) Would it bother us if the people in Harry's world have a fixed--and manifest--moral destiny? Would Jo's world be more or less appealing to us if we knew that the canon Draco is basically and inalterably evil and headed for the sulfurous pit? Would we be disappointed to assume that Harry notonly won't wander over to the dark side, but *can't* because he's basically and inalterably good? This may be more of a philosophical question than an aesthetic one, but it would certainly impinge on the books' universal appeal. > > Those are the questions that are bugging me. " Now doubtless, Jo has already written the end of her story, and in that sense, the characters do have a fixed destiny. Whether they are destined for the sulfurous pit is another matter, mostly because we don't know that the Potterverse contains a sulfurous pit. There's an afterlife, but we don't know if there's a final judgement awaiting anybody. What would be most satisfying to me is if it were left to the reader to decide. Then we could go on debating about Snape's twisted psyche for generations. Pippin From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 18:22:45 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 18:22:45 -0000 Subject: FAQF -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <9kfjks+hbbh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9khehl+bqlo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23595 Prefect Marcus:"I have mused on the question, "Why is Harry Potter so popular?", for some time. There are some that say it is only popular because it is well marketed. Yes, there is little doubt that it IS well marketed, but so are many other things in our world. How does this explain their popularity in places around the world where marketing is very primitive or even non-existent?" It wasn't marketing. The popularity of SS/PS began as word of mouth. Adults started reading the books and kids started begging their parents for their own copies. Parents and teachers noticed and got curious. Eventually the media noticed and started reporting on the phenomenon. Did you see a blitz of advertising *before* the books got famous? I didn't. *After* the books got famous it was another story. How often do bad books succeed because they were marketed well? the people who say it was just marketing are simply wrong. I believe it's the characters that make Harry Potter so successful. What do we discuss most on this board, and all the others? the characters, and the wizarding world they live in. Without Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, and all the rest, these books would not be the same. You could drop these characters in a hundred different plots [as we do in fanfiction] and we would stay interested. If we took some dopey characters and put them in Hogwarts everbody would be up in arms. JKR is a wonderful storyteller, and the whole world has listened to storytellers since we lived in caves. JKR's writing is not an example of high craft in the writer's art. Her writing is simple, straightforward, and doesn't get in the way. It's the people she's given us that matter. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Aug 4 18:44:12 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 18:44:12 -0000 Subject: Pondering the details of Goblet (contents vary) In-Reply-To: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9khfps+j6d8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23596 I have a late comment on this thread --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mcandrew at b... wrote:> > > 2) Chap 36, Parting of the Ways. (p. 617-8 UK) At Harry's hospital > bedside after the third task, Sirius and Snape are introduced to each > other by Dumbledore - but not until Madam Pomfrey has left the room > and is out of hearing. Obviously he doesn't trust her as he does > Snape or Molly Weasley, who is still present. Yet Pomfrey is a > highly respected member of Dumbledore's handpicked staff. So why is > she regarded as so much less trustworthy than some of the others? I think Snape doesn't trust her...why did he have Filch bind up his leg in PS/SS? I took Dumbledore's sending her away as another indication that there's some tension between Pomfrey and Snape. As for Minerva, remember that Sirius is an *unregistered* animagus. I think Minerva, who *is* registered, would likely take a very dim view of that. Dumbledore doesn't want to (cough!) rub her nose in it. She probably does know that Dumbledore considers Sirius innocent...wouldn't she have seen Harry's Hogsmeade permission form? I think the whole handshake scene was orchestrated by Dumbledore for Harry's benefit...he's the one who has to understand that it's important for these old enemies to get along and that they are both on the same side, for the sake of some future plot point, I am sure. Pippin From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 18:57:34 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 18:57:34 -0000 Subject: FAQF -- The Universal Appeal of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <9khehl+bqlo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9khgiu+ktb9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23597 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > JKR is a wonderful storyteller, and the whole world has listened > to storytellers since we lived in caves. JKR's writing is not an > example of high craft in the writer's art. Her writing is simple, > straightforward, and doesn't get in the way. It's the people she's > given us that matter. I beg to differ. The highest, most skilled artists of any craft make it look easy. Remember Prof. Sprout and the repotting of the Mandrakes? It is usually lesser lights that resort to showy, superfluous displays of craft in their attempts to dazzle us with their mastery. The true masters don't need to. They just do it. I have attempted to read some of the fanfic, especially the ones highly recommended by others. I've only read one that I actually enjoyed. It concerned an interview with Harry after his long life. He wanted to get something off his chest, and that seemed the best way to do it. I don't recall the author or its title, but I did enjoy it. I vaguely recall one quote, "That's not a Quick Quotes Quill, is it?" "No sir. Those things are garbage." Does anybody reading this recognize the reference? The rest were very forgettable. So I suspect, at least for me, there is more to it that just good characters. True, they are an essential ingredient, but certainly not the only or the most important one. Marcus From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 19:47:00 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 21:47:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Calvinism References: <9kheaj+rh6t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <009501c11d1e$3aa41220$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 23598 Pippin wrote, > Dumbledore doesn't seem to think so...he says that predicting the > future is a very difficult business...so how could the Sorting Hat do > it? One's Hogwarts house is hardly a predictor of one's fate in the > afterlife (all four houses have their ghosts). Potterverse souls can be > lost (to dementors), shared, possessed...can they be saved? We don't > know. It's clear that the Potterites believe that innocent people can > be attacked and devoured by Dementors...I think a Calvinist would have > trouble with that. Hmm. Interesting thoughts, those! Oddly enough, I hadn't even considered the afterlife angle. (Even the reference to Draco howling as he slides into the lake of fire was facetious.) I was more interested in figuring out whether the choices they make in the here and now are caused by a sort of inner moral polarity. Come to think of it, I'd never even considered what sort of afterlife Jo has supplied to the Potterverse ... [Visions arise of multiple universes trying to win over new authors: "Rock Bottom Rates on Empty Planets! Highest Serendipity Quotient Going! Accommodating Deities and a Grecian Style Underworld with a Whopping 0.04% Return Rate--Perfect for YOUR Fantasy Hero! CHECK OUT OUR FEEDBACK RATINGS ON EBAY!!!] > What would be most satisfying to me is if it were left to the > reader to decide. Then we could go on debating about Snape's twisted > psyche for generations. And yet another weird thought: What if Jo just quit writing and told us she's so sick of our nitpicking and double guessing, we'll just have to make up the rest ourselves? Eeck. Anyway, back to business ... Marcus wrote, > No, I don't think so. Two statements of Dumbledore spring to mind. > The birth versus what-you-become at the End of GoF. Even more > telling, his statement about choices versus abilities in CoS. Before > you can make choices, you have to have free will. That kinda puts the > kaboosh on Predestination. Not so fast! The CoS passage actually has some of the most "Calvinistic" passages in the canon. In fact, it was that passage that got me thinking about this. Let's pull it out for exegesis: * "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which * makes you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, * Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." * Harry sat motionless in his chair, stunned. "If you want proof, * Harry, that you belong in Gryffindor, I suggest you look more * closely at this." [....] * * "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat, * Harry." So: Harry's choices *reveal* something--they peel the layers off the onion--they show us the person he actually is. His true identity, his soul, his platonic essence. And that person is, fundamentally, a Gryffindor. He may not even have known it, but there's a white hat in his soul and when it comes to a crisis, he'll wear it. I'm not saying this is conclusive proof, but it certainly doesn't do anything to weaken the impression that any Gryffindor has whatever it takes to make a person be good and stay good. Marcus wrote, > When Sirius Black was discussing Snape's history he stated words to > the effect that Snape hung around a group of Slytherins that almost > all turned out to be Death Eaters. That implies that not all > Slytherins are evil. If they were, the Sorting Hat would not have > seriously considered putting Harry there, AND insist later that Harry > would had been successful there. Now that's a stronger argument. If we can just prove that some Slytherins turn out to be good, the question is answered. But is not ending up a DE the same as being good--or is it just a sign of that particular variety of prudence Voldemort calls cowardice? Finally, > Besides, Slytherin holds no monopoly on narrow-minded and > mean-spirited-ness. Remember the problems the good-old Hufflepuffs > gave Harry in CoS and GoF? Weaker. Don't forget that the Huffies also apologized!And as I said before, "elect" and "pleasant" are not necessarily synonyms, nor do they exclude an occasional lapse. The point is that elect always return to the paths of virtue, not that they don't trample about in a rose bed of iniquity now and then. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From quill_49 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 20:53:41 2001 From: quill_49 at yahoo.com (quill_49 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 20:53:41 -0000 Subject: Ebony's Birthday! Message-ID: <9khncl+ejbv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23599 Ahem. So, Eb's birthday is coming up soon. And I was talking to her...she said that getting a butt load of H/H fics would be the best present from fandom she could get. And then, she mentioned something about giving out awards if you write her a fic. Your trophey, shall we say, will we a cameo in her upcoming fic, *Paradise Lost*! Rules: 1. Must be H/H. 2. No NC17 stuff. 3. Must be over a page long. 4. Have fun! Thanks! Schnoogles over and out! -Quill AKA Charlie From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 21:01:36 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 21:01:36 -0000 Subject: Calvinism In-Reply-To: <009501c11d1e$3aa41220$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <9khnrg+i9j5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23600 > Marcus wrote, > > > No, I don't think so. Two statements of Dumbledore spring to mind. > > The birth versus what-you-become at the End of GoF. Even more > > telling, his statement about choices versus abilities in CoS. Before > > you can make choices, you have to have free will. That kinda puts the > > kaboosh on Predestination. > > Not so fast! The CoS passage actually has some of the most "Calvinistic" > passages in the canon. No so fast, my friend. You skipped right over the first Dumbledore quote I mentioned: "You fail to recognize that it matters not what someone is born, but what they grown to be! Your dementor has just destroyed the last remaining member of a pure-blood family as old as any -- and see what that man CHOSE to make of his life." (GoF CH 36. Emphasis mine.) Choice once again. > Marcus wrote, > > > When Sirius Black was discussing Snape's history he stated words to > > the effect that Snape hung around a group of Slytherins that almost > > all turned out to be Death Eaters. That implies that not all > > Slytherins are evil. If they were, the Sorting Hat would not have > > seriously considered putting Harry there, AND insist later that Harry > > would had been successful there. > > Now that's a stronger argument. If we can just prove that some Slytherins > turn out to be good, the question is answered. But is not ending up a DE the > same as being good--or is it just a sign of that particular variety of > prudence Voldemort calls cowardice? > "Not Slytherin, eh? Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that -- no?" The Sorting Hat. "I stand by what I said before -- you *would* have done well in Slytherin --" The Sorting Hat. "Each house has its own noble history and each has produced outstanding witches and wizards." Prof. McGonagall. We know that Harry would have done well there, and that it does produces great, noble, and outstanding witches and wizards. So I am not of the opinion that getting sorted to Slytherin predestines one to evil. You can *chose* different. Marcus From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 4 21:27:02 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 21:27:02 -0000 Subject: Calvinism In-Reply-To: <9khnrg+i9j5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9khpb6+9b41@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23601 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > We know that Harry would have done well [in Slytherin] and that it > does produces great, noble, and outstanding witches and wizards. > So I am not of the opinion that getting sorted to Slytherin > predestines one to evil. You can *chose* different. serious about "Great" ... Ollivander says "I think we must expect great things from you, Mr. Potter.... After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things -- terrible, yes, but great." nitpick about "Noble" ... McGonagall said each House had its own noble history, not that it had produced noble wizards and witches. Maybe the House can do stuff exclusive of the people in it? From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 4 21:36:36 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 21:36:36 -0000 Subject: Tuesdays in QTTA In-Reply-To: <9khbmj+5tfm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9khpt4+m7k3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23602 David wrote: > In QTA, the beginnings of Quidditch are recorded in a diary > (forgotten the name, book not to hand) in which every entry is a > Tuesday. Kennilworthy Whisp remarks that the author only knew one > day of the week. > > Is JKR telling a joke against herself? I just love this idea! It made me laugh as much as the original QTTA line. I think KW is a snob, by the way. Maybe every entry is Tuesday because that was the "broomstick idiots'" day to get together and play their new game. Amy Z ---------------------------------------------- . . . summoning the memory of the day I had been voted President of the local Gobstones Club, I performed the Patronus Charm. -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them ---------------------------------------------- From usergoogol at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 21:41:05 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 21:41:05 -0000 Subject: Calvinism (It's morals, but not nessicarily destiny.) In-Reply-To: <9khpb6+9b41@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9khq5h+38dg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23603 The hat decides what your moral status is, in my humble opinion. Itdoes a pretty reliable job of doing it too. The decisions you makeyou make in life are caused by your morals, and your morals are shownby the decisions you make.Slytherin doesn't seem to be "evil," per se. They seem to be more ledtowards people who tend to work hard to help themselves. That is notnessicarily a bad thing, because if you serve yourself, you will notnessicarily harm others. But, if someone is mainly led by their ownneeds, they may ignore others, and that may lead to greed. Gryffindor seems to show people who would work hard to uphold theirmorals, in my opinion. However, those morals can be bad.I'm not an expert in the other two houses, but if read the aboveparagraphs, you will see that the houses catagorize your morals, butnot in a way to nessicary prophecize anything.PS: I'm sorry for the short post I did before about Christianity. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 4 22:01:06 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 22:01:06 -0000 Subject: Calvinism; Afterlife In-Reply-To: <9kheaj+rh6t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9khrb2+348r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23604 Pippin wrote: >There's an > afterlife, but we don't know if there's a final judgement awaiting > anybody. What would be most satisfying to me is if it were left to the > reader to decide. Then we could go on debating about Snape's twisted > psyche for generations. I imagine you will get your wish. I don't think the final book is going to be called "Harry Potter and the Sulfurous Pit," nor "Harry Potter and the Choirs of Angels," for that matter. We'll know who lives and dies and what side they were on, but whether they're in a state of grace is for us to wonder and wrangle about. The afterlife in HP is an interesting question. We know that some people continue to exist in "post-biological status" (tip o' the keyboard to CMC), but they are very, very few. JKR has said that the happiest people don't become ghosts; what then does happen to them? Heaven/hell/purgatory, the void, reincarnation . . . ? I wonder if we will find out, since she hinted we'll learn more about why people do or don't become ghosts. Amy Z -------------------------------------------------------- "I'm =not= going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban -------------------------------------------------------- From editor at texas.net Sat Aug 4 22:15:55 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 17:15:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Calvinism References: <9khnrg+i9j5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6C741B.89128FE1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23605 Just to toss out a thought on choice. It depends on where you sit. Even in a perfectly Calvinist, predestined world, the inhabitants thereof would *still* believe they were using free will. They haven't read the ending, they're caught in a perspective necessarily limited by their participation in the drama, and as such, their choices are just that--choices. They themselves do not know whether they are elect or not. That their fate is predestined is not therefore relevant, since they can't really know and must still make the best choices they can. So I'm not sure whether establishing that the characters actually made choices or not is relevant; characters would make choices anyway. Isn't the point that the choices they make reveal them, not whether they truly make choices? --Amanda, struggling to remember her Milton and loving this hairsplitting thread! From joym999 at aol.com Sat Aug 4 22:42:01 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 22:42:01 -0000 Subject: Tuesdays in QTTA In-Reply-To: <9khpt4+m7k3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9khtnp+ou02@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23606 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > David wrote: > > > In QTA, the beginnings of Quidditch are recorded in a diary > > (forgotten the name, book not to hand) in which every entry is a > > Tuesday. Kennilworthy Whisp remarks that the author only knew one > > day of the week. > > > > Is JKR telling a joke against herself? > > I just love this idea! It made me laugh as much as the original QTTA > line. Actually, I havent mentioned this because it is a little obsessive, even for me, but I HAVE noticed that a disproportionate number of important events in the HP books seem to happen on Tuesdays, so maybe JKR DOES only know one day, or at least maybe she prefers it. It is only an impression though. I started to research it, but I didnt get very far, but, for example, Voldy kills James and Lily on a Tuesday; and Harry receives his first letter from Hogwarts on a Tuesday. Anyone crazy enough to dig through the books for more day of the week references? --Joywitch From natabat at crosswinds.net Sat Aug 4 22:07:09 2001 From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 15:07:09 -0700 Subject: Hogwarts Portraits Message-ID: <001701c11d31$d01dc720$0101a8c0@hp> No: HPFGUIDX 23607 Yeah, I know there was a fairly recent discussion of the nature of the paintings at Hogwarts, but... Today's page of the WB desk calendar said something along the lines of "The portraits of Hogwarts alumni can leave their paintings and go visit others." So are the Fat Lady and Sir Cadogan actually alumni? If they are, do they retain any magical abilities? Of course, it could just be yet another flaw in the WB merchandise, and, although it did get me wondering, I'm inclined to doubt it. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 00:35:42 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 00:35:42 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Portraits In-Reply-To: <001701c11d31$d01dc720$0101a8c0@hp> Message-ID: <9ki4cu+6li4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23608 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" wrote: > Yeah, I know there was a fairly recent discussion of the nature of the > paintings at Hogwarts, but... > > Today's page of the WB desk calendar said something along the lines of "The > portraits of Hogwarts alumni can leave their paintings and go visit others." > > So are the Fat Lady and Sir Cadogan actually alumni? If they are, do they > retain any magical abilities? Of course, it could just be yet another flaw > in the WB merchandise, and, although it did get me wondering, I'm inclined > to doubt it. I would hardly elevate WB advertising copy to the status of canon. The Fat Lady and sir Cadogan may well be alumni, but this is not the proof. Haggridd From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET Sun Aug 5 01:22:33 2001 From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 21:22:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 9 Year Gap References: <20010731142747.43905.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <025101c11d4d$1bd02e40$c4841440@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 23609 > Now you are talking the **oldest** of all Old Magic! Here's a true > example: > > My Brother 10-03-53 > #1 Sister 07-13-55 > Me 07-27-64 > #2 Sister 09-29-66 > > There's a 9 year, 2 week gap there. When asked about our family gap, > my mother always explains it this way: > I can go you one better! My mother's family had a 25 year gap between child #1 and #4! My mother's oldest brother was born 10/33 she was born 11/35 brother #2 was born 7/46 (an 11 1/2 year difference) brother #3 was born 2/58 an almost 12 year difference between #2  and a 25 year difference between # 1 & #3! To complicate things more I was born 7 months after son # 3! So it's not a big deal for there to be an 8 or 9 year difference. And I apoligize for posting so long after the discussion, I just returned from a week at the beach. Diana> From hyria at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 02:27:17 2001 From: hyria at yahoo.com (Catriona) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 02:27:17 -0000 Subject: Tuesdays in QTTA In-Reply-To: <9khtnp+ou02@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kiau5+8430@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23610 > --Joywitch wrote: > Anyone crazy enough to dig through the books for more day of the week references? No, but I am bored enough! Stuck here in the office on a Saturday night! It just so happens that I have a copy of GoF with me so here are the days of the week mentioned there plus related events (one or two of the days are based on conjecture). I haven't yet managed to establish an exact day for the third task but it appears likely that it too was a Tuesday (working back from when Harry sees Hagrid for hte first time after those events). Anyway. Ladies and Gentlemen, Incitata in an effort to relieve her boredom presents the days of the week and significant (and not so significant) events that occur on them in GoF! Mondays Quidditch World Cup Barty Crouch Jr Steals Harry's wand and usmmons the Dark Mark Death Eaters go on the rampage Herbology with the Hufflepuffs, Care of Magical Creatures afternoon double Divination. Harry tells Cedric that the first task involves Dragons Hermione gets hate mail at breakfast. Harry has a dream in diviniation. Tuesdays First Task Ron starts talking to Harry again Wednesdays Couldn't find any. Thursdays 4th year have DADA after lunch (particulatly the lesson on the Unforgivbale curses) Hermion elaunches S.P.E.W. Harry goes to the prefects bathroom to work onteh second task. Crouch Sr Murdered and Krum attaacked on the edge of the forest (day of the week is conjecture based on what Barty Crouch Jr says during 'Veriitaserum') Harry sees Hagrid for the first time after the third task Fridays 30th October. Delegates from Beauxbatons and Durmstrang arrive After Lunch. Double potions Weighing of the wands Rita Skeeters first intervew with Harry. Harry asks Cho to the Yule ball Ron asks Fleur Delacour to the Yule ball. Hermione reveals that she already has a date for the ball. Saturdays Voldie kills Frank Bryce (pure conjecture but if you work back from the Weasleys letter it seems to fit) 31st October Goblet picks the four champions. Ron stops speaking to Harry after he is chosen by the goblet. Hogsmeade visit (specifically the Saturday after the first task) Sundays The Weasleys pick up Harry from the Dursleys The day after Sirius speaks to Harry through the fire in the common room. Harry and Ron send a letter to Percy Winky gets drunk on Butterbeer. [I must stress that the list may not be exhaustive any errors or ommissions are due to the fact that it is 3:35am]. Incitata Catriona and too many pseudonyms to mention From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 02:55:50 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 02:55:50 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Portraits: a logistical question In-Reply-To: <001701c11d31$d01dc720$0101a8c0@hp> Message-ID: <9kicjm+5hqq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23611 I just have to ask this because a friend of mine just did a really lovely portrait of me and I just had it framed! If I were a witch in the HP Universe, and another witch or wizard did an enchanted portrait of me, my portrait would have a life of its own right? I mean it would be able to sit there in the frame if it chose to and TALK to people who were visiting me, and would even be able to converse with me. And while I am sitting here at my computer typing this, or pulling another late nighter on a project, my portrait would be able to go out dancing with Sir Cadogan or visit friends at the MOMA. Right?? Uhmmmm... isn't this just a little weird? What do you guys think? --Suzanne From smurfs143143 at aol.com Sun Aug 5 03:09:32 2001 From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 03:09:32 -0000 Subject: What should happen to Voldemort (formerly Hermione's Death?) In-Reply-To: <00ef01c11c5d$527dd8c0$8dc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9kiddc+brbc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23612 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > Well, that's all I can think of on _that_ subject. Maybe we should discuss > something cheerful---what do you all think should be done with Voldemort if > they catch him alive? The Dementor's Kiss? ~ I think if they do catch Voldemort alive, he should be kept alive. I think he should be tortured by the same means Harry's parents, Cedric, etc. did to him at the end of Book 4, if possible. He seemed severely affected by whatever the "echos" were doing and therefore he should suffer more for all the suffering he himself caused. If that is not possible however, the Dementor's Kiss sounds good... - Elizabeth From smurfs143143 at aol.com Sun Aug 5 03:15:57 2001 From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 03:15:57 -0000 Subject: A thought about Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <000401c11c98$6b60d780$75b291d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <9kidpd+ob44@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23613 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachelle Elliott" wrote: > Do we actually know when George and Fred obtained Marauder's Map? If they > had it in their possession during SS/PS, what do you think it would have > said about Professor Quirrell and Lord Voldemort possessing the same body? > I am just trying to anticipate future scenarios. > ~ Could the map possibly have written "Tom Riddle" instead of "Lord Voldemort"? I do not believe they would have known that Riddle was Voldemort. The twins still should have been confused/interested in the strangeness of the thing. However, whatever the situation was, I don't know if the twins would have given up such a valuable tool. - Elizabeth From caliburncy at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 03:16:55 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 03:16:55 -0000 Subject: What should happen to Voldemort (formerly Hermione's Death?) In-Reply-To: <9kiddc+brbc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kidr7+8elq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23614 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., smurfs143143 at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > > Well, that's all I can think of on _that_ subject. Maybe we should > discuss > > something cheerful---what do you all think should be done with > Voldemort if > > they catch him alive? The Dementor's Kiss? > > ~ I think if they do catch Voldemort alive, he should be kept > alive. I think he should be tortured by the same means Harry's > parents, Cedric, etc. did to him at the end of Book 4, if possible. > He seemed severely affected by whatever the "echos" were doing and > therefore he should suffer more for all the suffering he himself > caused. If that is not possible however, the Dementor's Kiss sounds > good... > > - Elizabeth Wow. Rather vindictive, aren't we? ;) I'm just kidding. Anyway, who am I to judge? But I personally side with Lupin: "Do you really think anyone deserves that?" (POA12) -Luke From hyria at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 03:24:09 2001 From: hyria at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Incitatus?=) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 04:24:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What should happen to Voldemort (formerly Hermione's Death?) In-Reply-To: <9kidr7+8elq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010805032409.75273.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23615 Elizabeth wrote: > > ~ I think if they do catch Voldemort alive, he > should be kept > > alive. I think he should be tortured by the same > means Harry's > > parents, Cedric, etc. did to him at the end of > Book 4, if possible. > > > He seemed severely affected by whatever the > "echos" were doing and > > therefore he should suffer more for all the > suffering he himself > > caused. If that is not possible however, the > Dementor's Kiss sounds > > good... Luke replied > Wow. Rather vindictive, aren't we? ;) I'm just > kidding. Anyway, who > am I to judge? But I personally side with Lupin: > "Do you really think > anyone deserves that?" (POA12) > Hehehe. There would be a certain irony in keeping him alive. If dear Voldie could be rendered powerless and maintain full conciousness the ideal punishment would be to leave him in the care of a few Muggles, I think he would find that suffering enough. Alive and stuck in the care of people he hates with only dreams of what he has lost. Nice;) Incitata ===== Go on ... Kiss a Dementor today! ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From caliburncy at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 03:31:36 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 03:31:36 -0000 Subject: Calvinism In-Reply-To: <3B6C741B.89128FE1@texas.net> Message-ID: <9kiemo+vrma@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23616 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Just to toss out a thought on choice. It depends on where you sit. > > Even in a perfectly Calvinist, predestined world, the inhabitants > thereof would *still* believe they were using free will. They haven't > read the ending, they're caught in a perspective necessarily limited by > their participation in the drama, and as such, their choices are just > that--choices. They themselves do not know whether they are elect or > not. That their fate is predestined is not therefore relevant, since > they can't really know and must still make the best choices they can. > > So I'm not sure whether establishing that the characters actually made > choices or not is relevant; characters would make choices anyway. Isn't > the point that the choices they make reveal them, not whether they truly > make choices? > > --Amanda, struggling to remember her Milton and loving this > hairsplitting thread! I believe Amanda's right that the existence of choice/free will doesn't rule out predestination where Calvinism is concerned--although in other circumstances I would certainly think it would. This is why Calvinism has always been a little bogus to me. You'll have to forgive me as my knowledge of Calvinism isn't up to snuff any more (at one point I knew much more about this), but as I recall your choices revealed to others around you whether you were elect or not. So it's like you couldn't change your destination, but people still chose to act in a certain way that reflected that they were probably elect. I know I didn't explain that clearly. Sorry about that. Anyway, I do think that Snape kind of causes problems with the idea that all Slytherins are doomed. Because as you said, Mike, if you stray from the path, but later return to it, you would still be elect. It seems to me that Snape, though he may have strayed, is basically good enough to argue that he is elect. I suppose he might change his colors again and become evil and negate this--but I doubt it so I'm really not planning on this contigency. Maybe you addressed and refuted this already. I've read the entire thread pretty much as it was posted, by even in the short span of time since then my memory is already waning. I'll have to go through it a second time, I guess, and check and see. -Luke From caliburncy at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 03:51:50 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 03:51:50 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Portraits: a logistical question In-Reply-To: <9kicjm+5hqq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kifsm+kd49@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23617 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > I just have to ask this because a friend of mine just did a really > lovely portrait of me and I just had it framed! > > If I were a witch in the HP Universe, and another witch or wizard did > an enchanted portrait of me, my portrait would have a life of its own > right? I mean it would be able to sit there in the frame if it chose > to and TALK to people who were visiting me, and would even be able to > converse with me. > > And while I am sitting here at my computer typing this, or pulling > another late nighter on a project, my portrait would be able to go > out dancing with Sir Cadogan or visit friends at the MOMA. Right?? > > Uhmmmm... isn't this just a little weird? What do you guys think? > > > --Suzanne Indeed, it is a little weird. But nevertheless, that does seem to be how it would work. Unless they don't take on these extra capabilities until after you die, but I really don't think that's as likely and there's certainly no evidence of it in canon that I'm aware of. Now here's a random, perhaps interesting thought. We know the subjects of portraits can leave, as can the subjects of the Famous Witches and Wizard Cards (per Dumbledore in PS/SS). I might assume this means the subjects of photographs can too. But now that I think about it, have we ever seen them do anything of the sort? Of course, they move (smiling, waving), but they don't exhibit the other qualities like disappearing altogether and going somewhere else or being able to talk. Certainly if Harry could talk to the photos of his parents than he would. Clearly the photo subjects are more restricted in their abilities. I wonder why. Obviously the technique/magic/technology (whatever you want to call it in each case) involved in painting portraits and taking photos is a bit different so maybe that's all there is too it. But then Dumbledore's wizard card I thought had a photo of him, not a painting. We see him disappear though we don't know where he goes (perhaps, unlike the subjects of portraits he can leave without going anywhere), but we don't hear him talk and I assume he can't. I have no idea where I am going with this, I just wonder what everyones interpretation of this is. I suppose it's a case of apples and oranges. -Luke From devilsangel0809 at aol.com Sun Aug 5 04:35:38 2001 From: devilsangel0809 at aol.com (devilsangel0809 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 04:35:38 -0000 Subject: Calvinism In-Reply-To: <9khd4b+m9ev@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kiieq+ojv8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23618 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" > wrote: > > Back to the Potterverse: I'm still wondering whether the same > applies. There > > are a number of signs that the people who go to G-R-H always turn > out good, > > whereas those who go to S always turn out bad. One thought on this matter might be that not everyone going into slytherin is neccissarily evil. There are a few that are and the others end up evil because they interact with the so called "evil" children and think that's the way things are supposed to be therefore making themselves evil too. That means they are not neccesarilly predestined to be evil, it's just that that is what they see so that is what they do. -Laura who is slowly coming out of lurkdom From devilsangel0809 at aol.com Sun Aug 5 04:59:52 2001 From: devilsangel0809 at aol.com (devilsangel0809 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 04:59:52 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Portraits: a logistical question In-Reply-To: <9kifsm+kd49@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kijs8+7fl3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23619 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > Indeed, it is a little weird. But nevertheless, that does seem to be > how it would work. Unless they don't take on these extra capabilities > until after you die, but I really don't think that's as likely and > there's certainly no evidence of it in canon that I'm aware of. > > Now here's a random, perhaps interesting thought. We know the > subjects of portraits can leave, as can the subjects of the Famous > Witches and Wizard Cards (per Dumbledore in PS/SS). I might assume > this means the subjects of photographs can too. But now that I think > about it, have we ever seen them do anything of the sort? Of course, > they move (smiling, waving), but they don't exhibit the other > qualities like disappearing altogether and going somewhere else or > being able to talk. Certainly if Harry could talk to the photos of > his parents than he would. Clearly the photo subjects are more > restricted in their abilities. I wonder why. Obviously the > technique/magic/technology (whatever you want to call it in each case) > involved in painting portraits and taking photos is a bit different so > maybe that's all there is too it. But then Dumbledore's wizard card I > thought had a photo of him, not a painting. We see him disappear > though we don't know where he goes (perhaps, unlike the subjects of > portraits he can leave without going anywhere), but we don't hear him > talk and I assume he can't. I have no idea where I am going with > this, I just wonder what everyones interpretation of this is. I > suppose it's a case of apples and oranges. > > -Luke Your lines of thinking about the photographs have personalities was exactly along the lines of my thinking. It seems that photos do retain some of the persons um personality seeing how in CoS Harry strains to get away from Lockhart in the picture that Colin took. One thought might be that photographs retain the personality of their subject but maybe they can't speak. But what would make the portraits able to speak and not the photos? Possibly a seperate enchantment. One more thought. Maybe the reason that the portraits can visit each other at Hogwarts is simply because they are at Hogwarts. The whole school is enchanted and maybe the walls allow the subjects of the paintings to travel through them to get to the next frame. Oh and I figured Dumbledore's picture on the chocolate frog was a photograph also. ~Laura "I mean, a few people have heard of you, haven't they? All that business with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named! . . . I know, I know --- it's not quite as good as winning 'Witch Weekly's' most charming smile award five times in a row, as I have" Gilderoy Lockhart CoS6 From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Sun Aug 5 05:22:12 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 05:22:12 -0000 Subject: What should happen to Voldemort (formerly Hermione's Death?) In-Reply-To: <9kiddc+brbc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kil64+fhfl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23620 Elizabeth wrote: > He seemed severely affected by whatever the "echos" were doing and > therefore he should suffer more for all the suffering he himself > caused. If that is not possible however, the Dementor's Kiss sounds I actually think that it should be the 'echoes' or ghosts of those he's killed that decide his ultimate fate. I think that they are the ones who have the most right to cast judgement on Voldemort. It would also alleviate any living person getting the credit for destroying Voldemort (again). Rowena From oppen at cnsinternet.com Sun Aug 5 06:10:51 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 01:10:51 -0500 Subject: The Deaths of Beloved Characters, and related subjects Message-ID: <00e301c11d75$61dae880$80c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 23621 One thing that kind of bothered me about the death of Cedric Diggory in GoF was that it didn't have the impact on me that the death of a character we'd gotten to know well through the first three books would have had. Although Cedric seemed to be a decent sort, we only got to see much of him in GoF, and even then, we never got to really know him---there'd have been a lot more impact if LV had killed poor, harmless, hapless Neville Longbottom. We've seen Neville since the first book, bumbling his way along, often clearly out of his depth, and a target for Snape's mistreatment since his first day in Potions, and I don't think there's a single HP reader that wouldn't say that they feel sorry for the poor kid. I feel like I know Neville far better than any of us got to know Cedric Diggory, and his death would have not only had more of an impact, but underscored, if it needed underscoring, just how casual and ruthless a killer Voldemort is. Even in the graveyard before Voldemort's got his body back, Neville'd be absolutely no threat to him. (BTW, if I were Snapey-poo, I'd be worried that Neville's grandmother might get wind of my treatment of Neville. His grandmother sounds to me like a lot of my own kin---we can happily tear each other to bleeding chunks for something to do, but if someone outside the family does _anything_ bad to any of us, we turn on him like sharks in a feeding frenzy. Forget Howlers; think of "All _right,_ Mrs. *gasp* Longbottom...I'll stop *wheeze* picking on Neville. Now will you get your *glug* fingers out of my throat so *choke* I can breathe?" That's a scene I would relish!) The "farewell to Cedric" scene was sad, but if it had been a character we'd seen and known since the beginning, it would have been even sadder. By the bye---does anybody know how wizards and witches conduct funerals in the Potterverse? I doubt they would use Muggle funeral directors/undertakers, but they'd have to do _something._ From hyria at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 06:23:33 2001 From: hyria at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Incitatus?=) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 07:23:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Deaths of Beloved Characters, and related subjects In-Reply-To: <00e301c11d75$61dae880$80c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <20010805062333.16916.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23622 --- Eric Oppen wrote: > Cedric seemed to be a decent sort, we only got to > see much of him in GoF, > and even then, we never got to really know > him---there'd have been a lot > more impact if LV had killed poor, harmless, hapless > Neville Longbottom. > We've seen Neville since the first book, bumbling > his way along, often > clearly out of his depth, and a target for Snape's > mistreatment since his > first day in Potions, and I don't think there's a > single HP reader that > wouldn't say that they feel sorry for the poor kid. > I feel like I know > Neville far better than any of us got to know Cedric > Diggory, and his death > would have not only had more of an impact, but > underscored, if it needed > underscoring, just how casual and ruthless a killer > Voldemort is. Even in > the graveyard before Voldemort's got his body back, > Neville'd be absolutely > no threat to him. Part of the tragedy was that we had just begun to get to know Cedric, I think half of the point of his death was to highlight just how the loss of someone we do not know that well can have on our lives. The message I get is about not only placing value on those close to you but on others too those that you can now NEVER get to know. (I really don't think that Diggory posed much of a threat to Voldie but killing Neville would actually have bordered on the humourous ... that's just the sort of thing people would expect Neville to do, clumsily managing to get himself killed [actually you may need a *very* dark sense of humour to understand the joke but oh well ::shrugs::] I think there are bigger things in stall for Mr Longbottom) Well that my thoughts. My night shift is over, I'm off home to bed:) Catriona/Incitata ===== Go on ... Kiss a Dementor today! ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 06:30:34 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 23:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Deaths of Beloved Characters, and related subjects In-Reply-To: <00e301c11d75$61dae880$80c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <20010805063034.62045.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23623 --- Eric Oppen wrote: > One thing that kind of bothered me about the death > of Cedric Diggory in GoF > was that it didn't have the impact on me that the > death of a character we'd > gotten to know well through the first three books > would have had. Although > Cedric seemed to be a decent sort, we only got to > see much of him in GoF, > and even then, we never got to really know > him---there'd have been a lot > more impact if LV had killed poor, harmless, hapless > Neville Longbottom. > Maybe I'm just the sappy sort or maybe I just identify with characters easier than you do becuase I'll be honest the first time I read GoF I cried when Cedric was killed. Personally I think GoF was well written and while we really didn't get to know Cedric until then I think JK did a very good job of telling us about him. But then again that just MHO. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From Allyse at my-deja.com Sun Aug 5 09:57:02 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 09:57:02 -0000 Subject: Quick-Quotes Quill In-Reply-To: <9kfh2s+32r3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kj59e+11666@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23624 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., maidne at y... wrote: > Hi all, I'm a new member and this is my first post. Welcome, Susan! > it just > occurred to me that several of the comments made about the MM and the > magic involved also apply to the QQQ. The quill wrote completely on > it's own, most of what it wrote was only marginally related to what > Harry was actually saying, but it knew quite a bit about Harry -- > scar, dead parents, green eyes. I've always imagined that the QQQ is a blank template that is impressed by the personality of its user. Rita sucks its point "with relish," IIRC. Since she does this both in the scene with Harry and the scene with the Pensieve, it seems clear that it's a necessary step in activating the Quill. If this theory is true, that means that the QQQ's "knowledge" of Harry is actually Rita's. Do Hogwarts professors have some way of testing essay to ensure that they weren't written with a QQQ? [Harry dabs a liberal amount of marmalade on the point of a QQQ and sucks at it before setting it down on a piece of parchment. Harry: "Percy thinks that thin-bottomed cauldrons will be the end of the wizarding world as we know it." QQQ: "Percy Weasley, a respected employee at the Ministry of Magic, has done painstaking research on the troubling frequency of ruined potions due to the inferior quality of..." Four feet of parchment in ten minutes flat. :)] What about the color? "Acid green" does suit Rita, doesn't it? Does the QQQ take on that color because it reflects her personality? Considering recent speculations on the importance of color in the Potterverse, I will leave it to others to theorize the colors that a QQQ might adapt if used by Ron, Harry, or Hermione. :) On another subject, I was awed and amazed by the sheer amount of work and dedication that went into making those incredibly detailed FAQs. I would like to add one detail to the one on the Map: The FAQ addresses the question of why Gred and Forge never noticed Pettigrew. It touches on the theory that MWPP spelled the Map to prevent others from seeing their own names, but shoots it down because Snape was able to see Lupin in PoA. However, the theory was further advanced to suggest that MWPP are only visible on the Map if one of the four *activates* it. Since Lupin turned the Map "on," so to speak, and then left it still activated on the desk, Snape was able to see him disappearing under the WW. Allyse, who has already typed this all out before and hopes it actually gets posted this time From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 11:43:01 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 07:43:01 -0400 Subject: Calvinism Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23625 Mike wrote: >If we can just prove that some Slytherins >turn out to be good, the question is answered. But is not ending up a DE >the >same as being good--or is it just a sign of that particular variety of >prudence Voldemort calls cowardice? No, not ending up a DE isn't good enough, because it might just be prudence (most of us seem to think Malfoy Sr. is governed by prudence more than principle). Snape, though, looks to be headed for escape from predestination, what with his abandoning the DE path "at great personal risk." That's what makes him the most interesting character so far to me. First we need to know for sure whether he was a Slytherin and, of course, whether he proves to be truly good. Re: "noble history" of each house: this could be McG finessing the issue. "Noble" should mean "good," yes, but if you were trying to find positive words for an ancient institution that had been frankly rotten all the way through, this is a word you might choose. The House could be noble (though not good) because Slytherin was a great wizard, the house is 1000 years old and has seen a lot of history, their Seeker in the championship year of 1312 broke his neck in a glorious dive but in his dying moments gallantly held up the Snitch (NB to my fellow nitpickers: Wood doesn't say no one's ever died playing Quidditch at Hogwarts, just that no one's ever been killed by a Bludger at Hogwarts). Good point by Amanda. I'd add, especially per Luke's comment, that this paradox (our actions are predestined but we feel like we're choosing freely) is not limited to Calvinism. Even people who don't believe in God at all have to resolve the determinism/free will problem: are we all just doing what we are "wound up" to do by our previous experiences, the exact configuration of the atoms of the universe the moment we were born, etc.? Even though we feel like we're making choices? Dumbledore's comment on Crouch Jr. in GoF stands as the best argument that JKR truly believes in choice. "What that man chose to make of his life," not "what he turned out to be like." It seems to me that JKR herself is feeling the pull of both ways of thinking: strongly believing in choice over predestination, yet enjoying the literary convention (a rather boring one IMO) of four Houses, four personalities, never mind that the kids are only 11 when they get put into their compartments. Amy Z who hopes we get some confirmation of good Slytherins and evil Gryffindors soon --------------------------------------- If only the hat had mentioned a house for people who felt a bit queasy, that would have been the one for him. --HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 11:46:30 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 11:46:30 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Portraits: a logistical question In-Reply-To: <9kifsm+kd49@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjbmm+icrb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23626 Luke wrote: > But then Dumbledore's wizard card I > thought had a photo of him, not a painting. We see him disappear > though we don't know where he goes (perhaps, unlike the subjects of > portraits he can leave without going anywhere), but we don't hear him > talk and I assume he can't. Perhaps Dumbledore's photo, like Dumbledore himself, can do things most wizards (or in this case, their photos) can't. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- My country is the world, and my religion is to do good. --Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man" --------------------------------------------------------- From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET Sun Aug 5 12:48:01 2001 From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 08:48:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts Portraits: a logistical question References: <9kifsm+kd49@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <002701c11dad$09e90b60$d8841440@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 23627 > > Indeed, it is a little weird. But nevertheless, that does seem to be > how it would work. Unless they don't take on these extra capabilities > until after you die, but I really don't think that's as likely and > there's certainly no evidence of it in canon that I'm aware of. > We know that they can move even when the subject is still alive. In CoS Lockhart has lots of portraits of himself in his office and they all move. In chapter 7, it talks about the "many moving faces of Lockhart watching him". And in chapter 9, as Dumbledore, McGonagall,Snape, Filch, Harry, Ron and Hermione enter Lockhart's office after Mrs. Norris is attacked "...there was a flurry of movement across the walls; Harry saw several of the Lockhart's in the pictures dodging out of site, their hair in rollers." I think there might have been another, but I can't find it right now. So apparently death is not the cause. I know I'd like to have a few of those portraits to help keep an eye on my five kids! Two parents are just not enough to watch 4 teenage boys!lol Diana From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 13:03:28 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:03:28 -0000 Subject: Flitwick's first name/Canon In-Reply-To: <9k7bjt+koei@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjg70+10gi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23628 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > BTW, according to the trading cards, Flitwick's first name is Filius. > So do I put that in the Lexicon? I'm unsure... The implication on www.hpgalleries.com (movie stills series 4) seems to be that the new poster book also gives Filius as Flitwick's first name. This seems closer to canon than trading cards. Anyone got the book? Amy Z From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 13:16:48 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:16:48 -0000 Subject: Wizard Photos In-Reply-To: <9kjbmm+icrb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjh00+7581@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23629 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Luke wrote: > > > But then Dumbledore's wizard card I > > thought had a photo of him, not a painting. We see him disappear > > though we don't know where he goes (perhaps, unlike the subjects of > > portraits he can leave without going anywhere), but we don't hear > him > > talk and I assume he can't. > > Perhaps Dumbledore's photo, like Dumbledore himself, can do things > most wizards (or in this case, their photos) can't. > > Amy Z > In CoS, Colin had a picture of Harry and Lockhart. Harry was pleased to see that his photo self was struggling with the photo Lockhart. His image refused to be seen. :) Marcus From jll3sonex at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 13:32:49 2001 From: jll3sonex at hotmail.com (jll3sonex at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:32:49 -0000 Subject: Wizard Photos In-Reply-To: <9kjh00+7581@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjhu1+8876@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23630 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Luke wrote: > > > > > But then Dumbledore's wizard card I > > > thought had a photo of him, not a painting. We see him disappear > > > though we don't know where he goes (perhaps, unlike the subjects > of > > > portraits he can leave without going anywhere), but we don't hear > > him > > > talk and I assume he can't. > > > > Perhaps Dumbledore's photo, like Dumbledore himself, can do things > > most wizards (or in this case, their photos) can't. > > > > Amy Z > > > > In CoS, Colin had a picture of Harry and Lockhart. Harry was pleased > to see that his photo self was struggling with the photo Lockhart. > His image refused to be seen. :) > > Marcus Perhaps the photos are like a 5-second time snippet - and the feelings are recorded as well as the image. Heck, I think I'd refuse to be seen with Lockhart too... From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 5 13:33:00 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:33:00 -0000 Subject: Flitwick's first name/Canon In-Reply-To: <9kjg70+10gi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjhuc+79qb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23631 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > > BTW, according to the trading cards, Flitwick's first name is > Filius. > > So do I put that in the Lexicon? I'm unsure... > > The implication on www.hpgalleries.com (movie stills series 4) seems > to be that the new poster book also gives Filius as Flitwick's first > name. This seems closer to canon than trading cards. Anyone got the > book? > > Amy Z I've written to Wizards of the Coast asking for clarification. I will also be writing JKR (haven't fininshed that one yet--trying to make it short but contain what's important). In the meantime, I think I'll be adding Flitwick's name wiht appropriate caveats to the Flitwick page but not change it on every list everywhere in the Lexicon. By the way, does anyone have the address to write JKR handy? Could same me some time scrounging online. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 13:49:46 2001 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:49:46 -0000 Subject: Hebrew Translation of CoS In-Reply-To: <007f01c116b2$d8a27600$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> Message-ID: <9kjitq+js90@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23632 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "- Joy -" wrote: > A friend who bought me the Hebrew version of SS unknowingly got me addicted > to comparing versions. I love seeing how all of the spells, poems, > wordplay, and names are translated. Since I'm reading CoS (in English) now, > I'm wondering how the end scene is translated. How does Tom Marvolo Riddle > rearranging to I am Lord Voldemort work in the Hebrew? I checked HP > Galleries, but they didn't have that on their comparison page. Thanks for > satisfying my curiosity until I find the motivation (and money) to get the > book! > > ~Joy~ > > http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 > Last Movie Seen: "America's Sweethearts" > Now Reading: "HP and the Chamber of Secrets" by J.K. Rowling Long time ago there was a thread here dealing with the anagrams in different languages and I sent the Hebrew one (message #6986). It is: tom vandr[e]lo rid[d]l[e] = ani lord vold[e]mort which translates literaly to "I am Lord Voldermort." (The letters in square brackets represent vowelizations (?) - that is, in Hebrew it's vowels that don't appear as letters but as certain squiggles above or beneath the consonants.) Naama, in desperate need of technical terminology From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Aug 5 14:00:54 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:00:54 -0000 Subject: The Deaths of Beloved Characters, and related subjects In-Reply-To: <00e301c11d75$61dae880$80c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9kjjim+rbum@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23633 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > One thing that kind of bothered me about the death of Cedric Diggory in GoF was that it didn't have the impact on me that the death of a character we'd gotten to know well through the first three books would have had.> I understand what you mean, Eric, but I think that was JKR's point. Let me try and explain. First of all, I can't take any death lightly (I'm referring to HP right now), especially when I think about the fact that this book is read by so many kids, whether or not JKR intended for that to happen. Second, I think Cedric's death was set up to be as tragic as it possibly could (and it will get worse, but I'll explain that in a bit). I remember writing about this when I first joined HPFGU (way back in February!). Cedric is handsome. His parents dote on him (remember Amos Diggory talking about Cedric telling Quidditchh stories to his grandchildren?). He probably did well in his classes (as his prefect status hints at) He is clearly well liked not only by his Housemates but the other Houses as well. He is popular with the girls (just ask Cho). He was always nice to Harry. He was also a good kid who ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Cedric didn't even have a minute to defend himself or to fight in any way. He was completely innocent. Remember, Voldemort here is just coming back into power. He may not know who Harry's friends are, or who is an easier target than others. What we do know is that the lives of others mean nothing to him. Cedric's death is not an act of vengeance or defense. It is simply killing to kill - "Kill the spare". Cedric was hardly seen as a person to Voldemort. He was just a pebble in the path to be kicked to the side. I thought that was pretty chilling. I do not know Neville's future, but JKR did mention in an interview that other characters, more beloved, will die. When that happens, there may be more reasons why. Voldemort may go for Ron knowing the effect Ron's death will have on Harry. Sirius may die in the midst of a plan gone wrong, fighting valiantly to save Harry and his friends. Dumbledore's age may prevent him from seeing Harry through book 7. I understand that more of us reading those potential scenes will be upset, but that doesn't make their deaths *more* tragic - just more understandable. In fact, Cedric's death is so tragic because of the randomness of it, and his death is just the start. That's what I think, anyway. --jenny from ravenclaw, who doesn't want anyone to die in HP ************************************* From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 5 14:06:01 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:06:01 -0000 Subject: Wizard Photos In-Reply-To: <9kjhu1+8876@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjjs9+1ldr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23634 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jll3sonex at h... wrote: > Perhaps the photos are like a 5-second time snippet - and the > feelings are recorded as well as the image. Heck, I think I'd refuse > to be seen with Lockhart too... But didn't Percy's girlfriend's photo hide under the frame when she got spots on her nose, this suggests that photos change as their subject does. I haven't got the book with me but I think that quote is in the first couple of chapters of POA, but I could be wrong. And when one of the twins poured tea on the photo she hid again, I think. Sofie, who thinks photos that change with you are a bad idea. What if someone took a brilliant photo of you and you looked like a supermodel and the next day you got chickenpox? It would be terrible. From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 5 14:17:27 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:17:27 -0000 Subject: 9 Year Gap In-Reply-To: <025101c11d4d$1bd02e40$c4841440@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9kjkhn+642o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23635 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Diana Wisniewski" wrote: > > I can go you one better! My mother's family had a 25 year gap between child#1 and #4! >My mother's oldest brother was born 10/33 > she was born 11/35 > brother #2 was born 7/46 > (an 11 1/2 year difference) > brother #3 was born 2/58 > an almost 12 year difference between #2  and a 25 year difference between > # 1 & #3! > To complicate things more I was born 7 months after son # 3! Okay I think that I can't quite beat that but almost. I come from a family of four, I have three brothers (worse luck for me!) Brother no.1 born 10th April 78 I was born 10th March 84 (6 months later our parents split up). Then in 30th April 98 brother no. 2 was born! And 5th Feb 2000 brother no. 3 was born. So twenty years and twenty days between brother 1 and 2! And almost twenty-two years between 1 and 3. And our mum's only 41, she's been a mother for twenty-three years! So that's an example of a more modern family (different dad for the youngest two). So a nine year gap is really nothing. Maybe Mr and Mrs Weasley were quite young when they had Bill and Charlie, so decided to wait a while before they had more children. Sofie (who gets taken for brother 2 and 3's mum all the time!) From morgan_793 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 14:27:04 2001 From: morgan_793 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?=20?=) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 15:27:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Photos In-Reply-To: <9kjjs9+1ldr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010805142704.50343.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23636 --- Sofie wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jll3sonex at h... wrote: > > > Perhaps the photos are like a 5-second time snippet - and the > > feelings are recorded as well as the image. Heck, I think I'd > refuse > > to be seen with Lockhart too... > > But didn't Percy's girlfriend's photo hide under the frame when she > got spots on her nose, this suggests that photos change as their > subject does. I haven't got the book with me but I think that quote > is in the first couple of chapters of POA, but I could be wrong. And > when one of the twins poured tea on the photo she hid again, I think. It seems fairly well established that wizard photographs move, where muggle photographs do not. I can't quote chapter and book, but there was also the case of a student at Hogwarts born of muggle parents who brought a poster of his favourite football team, and the wizarding children were amazed that the picture *didn't* move. One thing that hasn't been brought up is the difference between individual photographs (the one of Harry and Lockhart), mass produced photographs (chocolate frog cards), and painted portraits. Making a wizard photograph does seem to stamp a certain amount of the sitter's personality into the image, but it does seem that individual photographs appear to have more of their sitter's "personality" than the mass produced ones (not discounting that the original that the mass produced image was replicated from might be more individual). Producing a painted portrait takes a considerable amount of time. It does not seem surprising that the Hogwarts portraits have more individuality, personality, and volition than a mere photograph. But once the portrait is painted, does it retain the personality of the sitter, or does its singular experience as a portrait affect that personality as time goes on? Was Sir Cadogan, the sitter for the portrait, as mad as his image, or did the image go mad after being placed on canvas? I don't have any answers, but I do wonder. Likewise, another question: do you suppose it rains/snows &c. in wizard landscapes? ===== Respectfully, Morgan "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes." ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Sun Aug 5 14:29:30 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 10:29:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick's first name/Canon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23637 No caption on the pages in my book... -----Original Message----- From: Amy Z To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun Aug 05 09:03:28 2001 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick's first name/Canon Real-To: "Amy Z" --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > BTW, according to the trading cards, Flitwick's first name is Filius. > So do I put that in the Lexicon? I'm unsure... The implication on www.hpgalleries.com (movie stills series 4) seems to be that the new poster book also gives Filius as Flitwick's first name. This seems closer to canon than trading cards. Anyone got the book? Amy Z _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI PS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 5 14:47:27 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:47:27 -0000 Subject: Religion in the wizarding world Message-ID: <9kjm9v+6015@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23638 Has anyone got any ideas about what sort of religion wizards and witches may have, if they have one? Are they pagan or wiccan? I'd discount Christianity because of the whole witch-burning thing. But then Seamus is Irish, now even if his mum is a witch his dad isn't. Could his father be Protestant or Catholic? If his mother was muggle- born was she from a religious background? What about muggle-borns in general? Would coming from a Catholic background interfere with being a witch or wizard? So many questions, no answers. Any ideas or am I over nit-picking? Sofie, one lapsed Catholic parent, one agnostic/athiest parent = one confused child who now has a belief in an almighty something! From BrownieH6 at aol.com Sun Aug 5 15:01:48 2001 From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 11:01:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hebrew Translation of CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23639 I wonder, though, how people would know how to pronounce that in Hebrew...most books are printed without vowels, IIRC. But that's only because everyone knows what words sound like what... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sun Aug 5 15:03:42 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 15:03:42 -0000 Subject: Calvinism In-Reply-To: <012801c11cd2$bc8f6ab0$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <9kjn8e+t7h6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23640 "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: > Distinguishing between the elect and the reprobate has always > proved tricky in our world, since only God really knows what's on the > books--but in Harry's world you would just have to check out a guy's school > transcripts for a read on his fundamental moral status. > This is what fleshes out prejudice theme within the books. The House System has a tendency to ingrain certain ideas about the characters. Hufflepuff and Slytherin are the two maligned houses compared to Gryffindor and Ravenclaw. Hufflepuffs are viewed as "duffers" and Slytherins are viewed as evil and morally corrupt. I asked in a thread a couple of months ago what was so undesirable about Hufflepuff. Ron (a "good guy") and Draco (a "bad guy") both had some sort of ambivalence towards the members of that House. Yet if you really examine the Hufflepuff characteristics (industriousness and loyality), they are admirable too. But in general, readers have been conditioned to share the same lower expectations for Hufflepuffs as the book characters. The question of why Sirius was deemed a highly dangerous criminal is always chalked up to the street killing. Take the House System into consideration and Sirius' 'crime' becomes much worse. Slytherins like the Lestranges' and Rozier would be more-or-less expected to be "bad", so their actions wouldn't have the same shock value as a non-Slytherin committing similar crimes. Sirius' treatment confirms (to me) that he was either a Gryffindor or a Ravenclaw. He wasn't given a trial but sent directly to Azkaban, when other Death Eaters were given trials. I think it's because the wizarding community was dismayed that Sirius not only managed to fool James, Lily and Dumbledore, but he was enough of a sociopath at age 11 to fool the Sorting Hat (something even Voldemort wasn't able to do). The House System sets up an interesting morality caste system in the wizarding world. But is that much different than what occurs in 'real' society? I don't think so. > That leads to the two questions on my mind: (1) Is Potter's world really > this way? I don't see Pettigrew as a sign to the contrary, since there's a > good chance that he'll repent of his evil in time for a hero's burial. > (Calvinism doesn't say the elect can't meander off the straight and > narrow--they just have a way of finding their home again.) That Percy is > obnoxious and Justin Finch-Fletchley callow is even less of a problem. > ("Elect" and "pleasant" aren't meant to be synonyms.) I'd say Snape is the > closest thing to a negative test case--but only Jo and Amanda can figure out > what's happening in his twisted psyche. Still, this question admits to a lot > of debate. (NB: all the sorting hat says about Slytherins is that they're > cunning, power-hungry and ambitious, not that they're evil.) > Good point. However, in our society, 'cunning' and 'ambitious' are characteristics that have a mildly negative connotation. It's not desirable to be *too* cunning or * too *ambitious. > (2) Would it bother us if the people in Harry's world have a fixed--and > manifest--moral destiny? Would Jo's world be more or less appealing to us if > we knew that the canon Draco is basically and inalterably evil and headed > for the sulfurous pit? Would we be disappointed to assume that Harry not > only won't wander over to the dark side, but *can't* because he's basically > and inalterably good? This may be more of a philosophical question than an > aesthetic one, but it would certainly impinge on the books' universal > appeal. > Actually, I think the ending will be a clich? no matter what will happen. If Draco turns out to be inalterably evil: it's a clich?. If he suddenly has a change of heart and becomes "good", it's a clich?. In my most pessimistic voice, I think people will term the ending as "empty" or "lacking" or "predictable". However, I would only be disappointed if good doesn't triumph completely over evil. There's too much leaving the door open for a sequel these days. Milz From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 5 15:07:55 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 15:07:55 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <8o4mda+tk0t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjngb+bpsf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23641 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" > > I think it bears discussing here. We are all adults (or close >enough to it)--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry >Potter books that creep you out? I decided to have a look at what all you were all discussing when the group started (which was almost a year ago!)and I came across this thread. It seemed worth starting up again considering how many people belong to this group now. Anyway the character that scares me the most. This is probably going to be unusual but it has to be Peter Pettigrew. I know that he's portrayed as a snivelling (sp?) coward but the fact that he betrayed two of his best friends and then set another one up really chilled me. I often find human characters more scary than monsters because it's very likely that there are people just like them in the real world and that you might know them. Anyways that's my idea. Anyone else want to continue with this thread? Sofie. From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sun Aug 5 15:16:44 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 15:16:44 -0000 Subject: Religion in the wizarding world In-Reply-To: <9kjm9v+6015@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjo0s+77jn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23642 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > Has anyone got any ideas about what sort of religion wizards and > witches may have, if they have one? Are they pagan or wiccan? I'd > discount Christianity because of the whole witch-burning thing. But > then Seamus is Irish, now even if his mum is a witch his dad isn't. > Could his father be Protestant or Catholic? If his mother was muggle- > born was she from a religious background? What about muggle-borns in > general? Would coming from a Catholic background interfere with being > a witch or wizard? So many questions, no answers. Any ideas or am I > over nit-picking? I like to think that in the Potterverse, wizards and witches differ from Muggles only in their magical powers and not some sort of spiritual belief system. Sort of like how left-handed people differ from right-handed people in the real world. Milz From jll3sonex at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 15:32:40 2001 From: jll3sonex at hotmail.com (jll3sonex at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 15:32:40 -0000 Subject: Wizard Photos In-Reply-To: <20010805142704.50343.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kjouo+sijr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23643 >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wrote: >--- Sofie wrote: >--- jll3sonex at h... wrote: > [O]nce the portrait is painted, does it retain the personality of the > sitter, or does its singular experience as a portrait affect that > personality as time goes on? Was Sir Cadogan, the sitter for the > portrait, as mad as his image, or did the image go mad after being > placed on canvas? > > I don't have any answers, but I do wonder. > > Likewise, another question: do you suppose it rains/snows &c. in wizard > landscapes? > > > ===== > Respectfully, > Morgan Which brings up ANOTHER question, one which has somewhat disturbing possibilities. If the image in the photo is a bit of the person - what happens when something is done to the photo? Does it go back against the person? (He wondered, thinking of the old story 'The Portrait of Dorian Grey' and not really sure if he wants to pursue this to a voodoo-type logical conclusion.) Jerry From relliott at jvlnet.com Sun Aug 5 15:37:21 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 10:37:21 -0500 Subject: What should happen to Voldemort (formerly Hermione's Death?) References: <997002214.874.64392.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c11dc4$8614f340$10b191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23644 I think Voldemort should lose all of his wizard powers and be placed in a muggle prison for the rest of his natural life. ;) From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Aug 5 15:37:42 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 15:37:42 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Sirius / Snape's Task In-Reply-To: <9kdcrt+tlr4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjp86+k5uq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23645 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote: > > Luke wrote: > 'I think McGonagall probably would eventually be accepting of the > fact that Sirius Black is innocent. She does seem like the type to > be very stubborn, but she also seems to have a deep-seated enough > respect of Dumbledore to believe what he says. However, I'm not sure > this would be the best way to go about it even if he did intend to > tell McGonagall. It'd probably be better to sit her down and talk to her, not just spring it on her.' snip > This is brilliant! Dumbledore's pressing need is to get Snape and > Sirius to meet as allies, but why? Perhaps this is the key to > predicting what Snape's task actually is. Forgive me if this has been > used as evidence, but I haven't seen it before. Perhaps Sirius' task > of alerting the old crowd and whatever Snape's task is overlap, and > for that reason they *must* meet at that time (it is Dumbledore's > pressing need, after all). I really like this, but I still have no > idea what Snape's task could be that makes it so urgent for him to > see Sirius. If even McGonagall who is officially Dumbledore's second, > and who has unswerving faith in him, couldn't be trusted by > Dumbledore to see Sirius, there must be something *very* urgent about > Sirius and Snape meeting as allies. So to anyone who is more creative > than me, it would be interesting to hear your ideas as to why these > two needed to meet and why they needed to shake hands at that moment > in time. First, I agree with the idea that should Dumbledore tell McGonagall about Sirius, she would accept it as the truth. I think Dumbledore may have already told her, off-screen where we don't witness it. If that's the case, she doesn't need to stay with the group around Harry in the hospital - she already knows what's going on. Another reason that I think Dumbledore may have already spoken to McGonagall about Sirius is that he also has to make that story known to the people that Sirius has been sent to alert. At the very least, Dumbledore has to say, "Look, I'm sending you a messenger who you think is a mass murder. Trust me, he's innocent." Without some sort of message from someone they trust, why would Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher, etal, sit down and talk with Sirius, rather than try to turn him over to the MoM? Second, I don't know if it's important for Snape and Sirius to get along because their current tasks overlap. I think it more likely that Dumbledore is looking down the road and realizes that since the history between these two is so corrosive, he's got to take steps now to ensure they will be able to put aside their antagonism for the greater good. Asking Sirius to transform back to his human form in front of Snape sends a message to both of them. It says to Sirius, "I trust Snape enough to reveal your secret Animagus identity to him - you can trust him, too." And it says to Snape, "I've given the vital secret of Sirius' disguise and I trust you will not use it against him or reveal this to the wrong people." Although, I'd love to see a scene with Severus and Sirius acting in concert to do something great together, sniping at each other the entire time. Marianne From margdean at erols.com Sun Aug 5 14:59:07 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 10:59:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion in the wizarding world References: <9kjo0s+77jn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6D5F3B.75174001@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23646 Milz wrote: > I like to think that in the Potterverse, wizards and witches differ > from Muggles only in their magical powers and not some sort of > spiritual belief system. Sort of like how left-handed people differ > from right-handed people in the real world. I would agree with this. For one thing, we certainly never witness any specifically witch/wizard religious practices, holidays, etc. On the contrary, Hogwarts celebrates Muggle holidays such as Christmas and Halloween. For another, we know that the wizarding world is constantly "recruiting" young witches and wizards from Muggle or part-Muggle families (such as Hermione or Seamus). Would they really be expected to chuck their whole previous culture -- religion included -- in order to enter the wizarding world? I don't think so: if the kids themselves didn't object, the parents almost certainly would. So I tend to think that the wizarding world is just as diverse, religiously, as the Muggle world is. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Wiccans, atheists, nothing-in-particulars, you name it. (Though I'd think there would be a certain thrill in being a Muggle Wiccan and having your kid get a letter from Hogwarts . . . OTOH there was that article recently about the Wiccans complaining the brooms were backwards, so perhaps there would be a certain amount of outrage that magic didn't work the way they thought it should! :) ) --Margaret Dean From margdean at erols.com Sun Aug 5 15:03:53 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 11:03:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Photos References: <20010805142704.50343.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B6D6059.3419F7DD@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23647 Morgan wrote: > One thing that hasn't been brought up is the difference between > individual photographs (the one of Harry and Lockhart), mass produced > photographs (chocolate frog cards), and painted portraits. In the case of the Chocolate Frog trading cards, though, not all of the originals can have been photos, can they? I got the impression that they were pictures of famous witches and wizards throughout history, some of whom at least must have lived and died long before the invention of photography. > Likewise, another question: do you suppose it rains/snows &c. in wizard > landscapes? Ooh, what a cool idea! --Margaret Dean From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 15:53:11 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 15:53:11 -0000 Subject: The Deaths of Beloved Characters, and related subjects In-Reply-To: <9kjjim+rbum@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kjq57+4ir9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23648 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > > One thing that kind of bothered me about the death of Cedric Diggory > in GoF was that it didn't have the impact on me that the death of a > character we'd gotten to know well through the first three books would > have had.> Jenny wrote: possibly could... > Cedric's death is not an act of vengeance or defense. It is simply > killing to kill - "Kill the spare". Cedric was hardly seen as a > person to Voldemort. He was just a pebble in the path to be kicked to > the side. I thought that was pretty chilling. In fact, Cedric's death is so tragic because of the > randomness of it, and his death is just the start. I so agree with this. I have said many times before that this is one of the most horrific death scenes I have ever read, and that the sentence "Kill the spare" sends shivers down my spine. This scene for me was an amazing bit of writing. Many people have commented on this list that Voldemort cannot be truly taken seriously and that he is almost a caricature of an evil character. I have to agree with this in part, because Voldemort is not a rounded character - he is depicted as pure evil without any redeeming features - this makes him pretty one-dimensional - but the one thing which did make me think that Voldemort had to be taken seriously was his casual disregard of another's life. There are not many instances when a death occurs in a book like this - totally without provocation, without need, just for the hell of it. The fact that it was Cedric, and that we supposedly don't have as much invested in him as in other characters, for me made it much worse, as I felt that I had sold him short in some way. I also feel that if the person to die had been someone we had loved more, the impact would have been lesssened, because it was what we were expecting. I disagree with Eric's comments that perhaps it should have been Neville who should have died. I feel that JKR is building Neville up to something - he has several very telling scenes in each book which develop his character further, and I don't think that this has come to an end yet. Conversely, after the initial shock, it felt natural that it should be Cedric (if anyone) who should die. I felt that JKR had drawn Cedric out as much as she felt necessary. She shows the Hufflepuffs in a very strong light through his characterisation. He is not a caricature of a hero, which is how Harry initially sees him. He is not egotistical, he is brave, hardworking, fair and very, very honourable. I hate the comment that Crouch/Moody makes about how the best people are the easiest to manipulate - it makes Cedric into a pawn, and he is worth a lot more than that. I have a hypothetical question. If Harry had refused to take the cup, and Cedric had been forced into taking it, what would Crouch/Moody have done to resolve the situation? Catherine From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 5 16:53:49 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 16:53:49 -0000 Subject: Urgent: Snape in a dress! Message-ID: <9kjtmt+7e1k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23649 I desperatly need to know what the outfit that Neville's grandma wears is like. Ideally I would like the quote but if anyone can remember accuratly from memory that would be great. I need it for my fic that I'm writing but I only have access to the internet until tomorrow morning. And I haven't got my books with me. Plese can anyone help me out here? From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 5 17:06:17 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 12:06:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: McGonagall and Sirius / Snape's Task References: <9kjp86+k5uq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6D7D09.E63F8B6E@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23650 Zarleycat at aol.com wrote: > Asking Sirius to transform back to his human form in > front of Snape sends a message to both of them. It says to > Sirius, "I trust Snape enough to reveal your secret Animagus identity > to him - you can trust him, too." And it says to Snape, "I've given > the vital secret of Sirius' disguise and I trust you will not use it > against him or reveal this to the wrong people." Bravo! And thank you! I've been sitting here with something along these lines pong-ing around in my head, unable to phrase it. Perfect. Exactly. Yes. > Although, I'd love to see a scene with Severus and Sirius acting in > concert to do something great together, sniping at each other the > entire time. This is also one of my fondest hopes. Because Snape's style has always reminded me of a description of Edmund from "Prince Caspian" in the Narnia series, something along the lines of "He fully intended to back Lucy up, but was annoyed at losing his night's sleep and was making up for it by doing everything as sulkily as possible." Snape, I believe, is fully committed to the good side, but for many-layered reasons, does everything as sulkily as possible. Because of his conscious commitment to the good, I don't class him as an anti-hero like Thomas Covenant in the Unbeliever series (forgot the author, sorry)--Covenant really *was* an S.O.B. who did good things in spite of himself, often in spite of his own intentions and actions. Snape's intent and actions are good--but his style is so mean! I really hope we see more of his underlying motivations in subsequent books, and I think a sequence working closely with Sirius would be priceless. --Amanda (my version of a one-liner) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 5 17:14:31 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 12:14:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Deaths of Beloved Characters, and related subjects References: <9kjq57+4ir9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6D7EF6.5291247F@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23651 catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote: > I so agree with this. I have said many times before that this is one > of the most horrific death scenes I have ever read, and that the > sentence "Kill the spare" sends shivers down my spine. This scene for > me was an amazing bit of writing. Me, too. This scene was so accurate. There was no explanation, no cues, no hints, no warning, and no escape. I went through, as a reader, the exact same disbelief that Harry did. Harry didn't want to look down. I didn't want to read down. We both knew what we'd see and we couldn't quite process it. This was terribly effective. > There are not many instances when a death occurs in > a book like this - totally without provocation, without need, just for > the hell of it. The fact that it was Cedric, and that we supposedly > don't have as much invested in him as in other characters, for me made > it much worse, as I felt that I had sold him short in some way. I > also feel that if the person to die had been someone we had loved > more, the impact would have been lesssened, because it was what we > were expecting. Oh, precisely! We liked Cedric, he was nice, he did not impinge on our consciousnesses very much, he was *there.* When someone like that is suddenly *not* there, it makes it so much of a shock. Like when you go to another country, the things that really get to you are *not* that they are speaking another language or that the signs are unreadable--it's that the doorknobs are shaped wrong, the air smells different, the bread has a strange texture. It is the underlying, taken-for-granted things that bring it home first. If that all makes sense. > I have a hypothetical question. If Harry had refused to take the cup, > and Cedric had been forced into taking it, what would Crouch/Moody > have done to resolve the situation? Hm. Probably awaited developments? Either that or created a distraction and then gone into the maze to transport Harry to Voldemort another way...? --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 5 17:17:13 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 12:17:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Calvinism References: Message-ID: <3B6D7F98.1AB1746C@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23652 Amy Z wrote: > Snape, though, looks to be headed for escape from > predestination, what with his abandoning the DE path "at great > personal risk." That's what makes him the most interesting character > so far to me. You *can't* escape from predestination. That's what predestination means. If Snape is acting honorably, it is because he was predestined to do so. That his situation makes his predestined choices such a struggle for him is the pity. (Which sort of argument is why I dislike predestination and plays like OEdipus Rex). --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at cnsinternet.com Sun Aug 5 17:24:18 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 12:24:18 -0500 Subject: Wizards and religion, and wizard photographs Message-ID: <006601c11dd3$76200740$d5c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 23653 With a name like Seamus, in Ireland, Seamus would just about _have_ to be Catholic or of Catholic background. I've never been to Ireland (the Irish-Americans I know are schizophrenic; half the time they talk about Ireland as though it were heaven, the other half of the time they're thanking God they got out of that hellhole) but I was reading that even "nonbelievers" or people who've left their ancestral branch of Christianity would still be classifed as "Catholic" or "Protestant." Rules of thumb, as I understand them: Being named after a Catholic saint or given a Gaelic name (like Seamus) means a Catholic, while Protestants get named after people in the Old Testament or given more English- or Scottish-style names. In other words, someone named "Ian MacAllister" is going to be Protestant, while "Seamus O'Rourke" will be Catholic. As for whether wizards and witches practice Muggle-style religion---why ever not? As I understand it, through most of the Middle Ages there were a lot of "witchy" things you could do that wouldn't get you into trouble with the law---you got hauled in if people thought you were using magic to hurt other people, or for some other specific crimes. Besides, just finding out that you're a (Muggle-born) witch or wizard wouldn't mean that you'd instantly abandon everything you'd believed before---I could easily see Hermione, for example, as a person who combines being a good member of the Church of England with ambitions to be the _best_ d*mn witch there ever was. Something that occurred to me about wizard photographs---are there wizard-oriented girlie magazines? _Coven Cuties,_ anyone? I'm in the middle of writing a _very_ long fic, and I had a lot of fun with a scene where Hermione's going through one of the boys' trunks and finding one of these. "Oh, my god, you guys really _read_ this stuff? Let's see---'Twenty Hexes To Help YOU Get Lucky,' 'Best Broomsticks For Picking Up Babes,' and, oh look, 'Coven Cutie of the Month'---poor thing, she lost her robes somewhere!" I seriously doubt JKR would ever bring this issue up in the books, but since the wizard world exists in parallel with the Muggle world, I'd assume that something of the sort exists. One last little point---some of y'all have been contacting me offlist with ideas about what to do with Voldemort. Frankly, some of you SCARE me! I thought _I_ was a pretty nasty piece of work, but I'd never have thought of, for instance, taking away Voldemort's powers and making him live for the rest of his life with the Dursleys! It _would_ be "the punishment fitting the crime," but wouldn't it be a lot more humane to just kill the guy? From relliott at jvlnet.com Sun Aug 5 17:43:27 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 12:43:27 -0500 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? References: <997026794.1986.15785.l7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c11dd6$22f0d560$17b191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23654 Dementors scare me the most. In my opinion, the have no conscious. The only thing they want is food or that is human emotion. It does not matter where they get it. It could be from prisoner during an apprioved execution (B. Crouch) or taken illegally from small child (H. Potter). Dementors don't care. But, the whole Deatheater concept also alarms me. They are suppose to everything Voldemort commands kinda like Hitler and his Gestapo. But in the end, a Deatheater should have a conscious. It is their decision to use it (S. Snape). From smurfs143143 at aol.com Sun Aug 5 17:57:18 2001 From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 17:57:18 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <000401c11dd6$22f0d560$17b191d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <9kk1du+oimc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23655 ~ I have to say that Dementors scare me the most. I cannot possibly imagine having my soul sucked out. I think I owuld rather be shot. Seriously though, these guys scare the hell out of me...I've had at least two dreams about awaiting my soul to be sucked out...and it was not a good feeling. - Elizabeth From joy0823 at earthlink.net Sun Aug 5 18:01:08 2001 From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:01:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Urgent: Snape in a dress! References: <9kjtmt+7e1k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007101c11dd8$9ba1d3e0$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23656 >From PoA , Chapter 7, pg. 137 in the US hardback edition: "There was a noise like a whip crack. Snape stumbled; he was wearing a long, lace-trimmed dress and a towering hat topped with a moth-eaten vulture, and he was swinging a huge crimson handbag." >From pg. 135: " 'I wonder, could you tell us what sort of clothes your grandmother usually wears?' Neville looked startled, but said, 'Well... always the same hat. A tall one with a stuffed vulture on top. And a long dress... green, normally... and sometimes a fox-fur scarf.' 'And a handbag?' prompted Professor Lupin. 'A big red one,' said Neville." Good luck with the fic! ~Joy~ http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 Last Movie Seen: "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" Now Reading: "HP and the Goblet of Fire" by J.K. Rowling Sofie wrote: > I desperatly need to know what the outfit that Neville's grandma > wears is like. From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 5 18:06:55 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 18:06:55 -0000 Subject: Urgent: Snape in a dress! In-Reply-To: <9kjtmt+7e1k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kk1vv+fsv0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23657 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > I desperatly need to know what the outfit that Neville's grandma > wears is like. Ideally I would like the quote but if anyone can > remember accuratly from memory that would be great. I need it for my > fic that I'm writing but I only have access to the internet until > tomorrow morning. And I haven't got my books with me. Plese can > anyone help me out here? As you see, someone answered your question. I just want to point out, though, that answers to things like this can easily be found in the Harry Potter Lexicon. That particular detail is found here: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/clothing.html I did a quick search in the Lexicon using the keyword Grandmother and came up with it immediately. Hope this is helpful in the future. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From devilsangel0809 at aol.com Sun Aug 5 18:45:47 2001 From: devilsangel0809 at aol.com (devilsangel0809 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 18:45:47 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <9kjngb+bpsf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kk48r+e0u2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23658 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" > > > > I think it bears discussing here. We are all adults (or close > >enough to it)--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry > >Potter books that creep you out? > > I decided to have a look at what all you were all discussing when the > group started (which was almost a year ago!)and I came across this > thread. It seemed worth starting up again considering how many people > belong to this group now. > > Anyway the character that scares me the most. This is probably going > to be unusual but it has to be Peter Pettigrew. I know that he's > portrayed as a snivelling (sp?) coward but the fact that he betrayed > two of his best friends and then set another one up really chilled > me. I often find human characters more scary than monsters because > it's very likely that there are people just like them in the real > world and that you might know them. Anyways that's my idea. Anyone > else want to continue with this thread? > > Sofie. I'd have to say that Barty Crouch Jr. scares(d) me the most. He some how spent a year in Azkaban knowing he was guilty and that his father sentenced him with out going mad. He is evil to the core. The second he got out of Azkaban the only thing he wanted to do was find his master again and kill more people. He kept an old man locked up in his trunk for 11 months! He makes me think of a twisted and sadistical serial killer and that scares the heebie-jeebies outta me! ~Laura From belinda at sawyertech.com Sun Aug 5 19:20:17 2001 From: belinda at sawyertech.com (belinda at sawyertech.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 19:20:17 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <9kk48r+e0u2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kk69h+e6lb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23659 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devilsangel0809 at a... wrote: > > > I think it bears discussing here. We are all adults (or close > > >enough to it)--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry > > >Potter books that creep you out? > > Voldie and Dementors are terrifying, Barty and Lucius and Wormtail are evil personified, but my creepy character (as things stand at the end of GOF) is going to have to be Fudge. At least with the others you know where you stand (once Crouch was unmasked, that is.) Fudge is supposed to be a good guy, but has no qualms about putting people in danger to serve his own image and self-interest. Thanks to his arrogance/incompetence/cowardice, people are going to die and most of them will never see it coming because they trust him to protect and inform them. (He's the mayor in Jaws, even as a kid I thought he was way scarier than the fish.) On a visceral level, put me down in the Dementor column. Having had a brush with clinical depression (JKR's inspiration for these creatures) I'd much rather take my chances with Voldie than meet up with these guys - Avada's at least quick. Belinda sinking back into lurkdom From devilsangel0809 at aol.com Sun Aug 5 20:07:50 2001 From: devilsangel0809 at aol.com (devilsangel0809 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 20:07:50 -0000 Subject: A timeline question Message-ID: <9kk92m+bsqk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23660 Oke doke. I'm not exactly sure that this belongs on this list and if it doesn't please do not shoot me I am new to this list. I was just looking through the lexicon sight and came across a timeline of October 31, 1981. >From the Lexicon sight timeline: ~The woman runs away with Harry but Voldemort catches up with her. He tells her to step aside, but she insists on shielding Harry. The woman was almost certainly Lily Potter. ~Voldemort attempts to kill Harry Potter, but the spell backfires and the Dark Lord is hit. He is barely alive and his body is gone. He flees. ~Someone uses Voldemort's wand to kill first Lily, then James Potter. We do not know how soon after Voldemort's defeat this occurred. (It is possible that this attack was carried out by Wormtail or by Barty Crouch Jr., two Death Eaters who were most devoted and could very well have accompanied Voldemort on a mission of this importance.) It seems to me that this could not be possible. Lily and James could not have been killed by some one else. Voldemort says that he killed them himself. "His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with a protection . . ." GoF33 He also taunts Harry about his father saying that he died begging him for mercy or something of that sort, i can't find the quote. One question that is brought up multiple times on that timeline is what happened to the curse that failed? Why didn't an echo of that spell come out of Voldemort's wand too. The answer could be that simply because the curse failed it has no echo. Kind of like it was erased or something of that sort. Also maybe a flash of light or some kind of other something indicating that spell DID come out but Harry (and us since we are seeing through his eyes) did not see it because he was watching the smoky figures prowl around them. Ok so if you all wanna yell at me for putting this here i'm sorry if it doesn't go. But i just wanted someone elses opinion on that too. ~Laura "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret . . ." GoF13 From devilsangel0809 at aol.com Sun Aug 5 20:08:08 2001 From: devilsangel0809 at aol.com (devilsangel0809 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 20:08:08 -0000 Subject: A timeline question Message-ID: <9kk938+8svq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23661 Oke doke. I'm not exactly sure that this belongs on this list and if it doesn't please do not shoot me I am new to this list. I was just looking through the lexicon sight and came across a timeline of October 31, 1981. >From the Lexicon sight timeline: ~The woman runs away with Harry but Voldemort catches up with her. He tells her to step aside, but she insists on shielding Harry. The woman was almost certainly Lily Potter. ~Voldemort attempts to kill Harry Potter, but the spell backfires and the Dark Lord is hit. He is barely alive and his body is gone. He flees. ~Someone uses Voldemort's wand to kill first Lily, then James Potter. We do not know how soon after Voldemort's defeat this occurred. (It is possible that this attack was carried out by Wormtail or by Barty Crouch Jr., two Death Eaters who were most devoted and could very well have accompanied Voldemort on a mission of this importance.) It seems to me that this could not be possible. Lily and James could not have been killed by some one else. Voldemort says that he killed them himself. "His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with a protection . . ." GoF33 He also taunts Harry about his father saying that he died begging him for mercy or something of that sort, i can't find the quote. One question that is brought up multiple times on that timeline is what happened to the curse that failed? Why didn't an echo of that spell come out of Voldemort's wand too. The answer could be that simply because the curse failed it has no echo. Kind of like it was erased or something of that sort. Also maybe a flash of light or some kind of other something indicating that spell DID come out but Harry (and us since we are seeing through his eyes) did not see it because he was watching the smoky figures prowl around them. Ok so if you all wanna yell at me for putting this here i'm sorry if it doesn't go. But i just wanted someone elses opinion on that too. ~Laura "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret . . ." GoF13 From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Sun Aug 5 20:15:02 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: wizard clothing? (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Urgent: Snape in a dress!) In-Reply-To: <007101c11dd8$9ba1d3e0$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23662 On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, - Joy - wrote: > Neville looked startled, but said, 'Well... always the same hat. A tall one > with a stuffed vulture on top. And a long dress... green, normally... and > sometimes a fox-fur scarf.' Reading this quote causes me to wonder again about the old question about wizard vs. Muggle clothing. Neville doesn't say that his gradmother wears a robe, but instead that she wears a long *dress*. Looking at the Lexicon's clothing page (made the gods always look on you with favor, Steve!), it seems like that's the only real instance of a wizard/witch not wearing robes. Is it an age thing? Witches have only recently started to wear robes -- adopting male fashion much as Muggle women have adopted pants? Any thoughts? --jen :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 5 20:36:48 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 20:36:48 -0000 Subject: Urgent: Snape in a dress! In-Reply-To: <9kk1vv+fsv0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kkap0+hab2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23663 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > As you see, someone answered your question. I just want to point out,though, that answers to things like this can easily be found in the > Harry Potter Lexicon. That particular detail is found here: > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/clothing.html > > I did a quick search in the Lexicon using the keyword Grandmother and came up with it immediately. > > Hope this is helpful in the future. > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Thank you so much, I'll remember to check Lexicon next time. I've looked at your site before and it's brilliant. I found out loads of things that I hadn't known and thank you for giving me the evidence to prove that their are two other girls in Harry's year in Gryffindor. None of my friends would believe me. Thanks again, Sofie From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 5 20:39:13 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 20:39:13 -0000 Subject: Urgent: Snape in a dress! In-Reply-To: <007101c11dd8$9ba1d3e0$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> Message-ID: <9kkath+dstt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23664 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "- Joy -" wrote: > From PoA , Chapter 7, pg. 137 in the US hardback edition: > "There was a noise like a whip crack. Snape stumbled; he was wearing a > long, lace-trimmed dress and a towering hat topped with a moth-eaten > vulture, and he was swinging a huge crimson handbag." > > From pg. 135: > " 'I wonder, could you tell us what sort of clothes your grandmother usually > wears?' > Neville looked startled, but said, 'Well... always the same hat. A tall one > with a stuffed vulture on top. And a long dress... green, normally... and > sometimes a fox-fur scarf.' > 'And a handbag?' prompted Professor Lupin. > 'A big red one,' said Neville." > > Good luck with the fic! > > ~Joy~ > Thank you so much. I'll be able to post my new chapter thanks to you. Thank you so much again! Sofie From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 5 22:02:21 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 22:02:21 -0000 Subject: A timeline question In-Reply-To: <9kk938+8svq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kkfpd+i3r3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23665 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devilsangel0809 at a... wrote: > Oke doke. I'm not exactly sure that this belongs on this list and > if it doesn't please do not shoot me I am new to this list. I was > just looking through the lexicon sight and came across a timeline of > October 31, 1981. I have no doubt in my mind that JKR intends the story to go exactly as we've all assumed: V. kills James, then Lily, then tried to kill Harry. But that isn't what the text says. While we've all been worried about the order of James and Lily out of the wand, we missed the fact that she made a larger error. That page in the Lexicon simply explains what the text exactly says to point that out. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexcicon From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Sun Aug 5 22:25:54 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 22:25:54 -0000 Subject: Religion in the wizarding world In-Reply-To: <3B6D5F3B.75174001@erols.com> Message-ID: <9kkh5i+1qo4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23666 Margaret Dean wrote: "...Hogwarts celebrates Muggle holidays such as Christmas and Halloween." Um ... isn't Hallowe'en (Samhain) a Pagan holiday? And wasn't Christmas originally a Pagan holiday, centered around the winter equinox? Or it could be that I am associating 'muggle' with 'Christian'. Michelle :) From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 22:32:11 2001 From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 19:32:11 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion in the wizarding world Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23667 Um ... isn't Hallowe'en (Samhain) a Pagan holiday? And wasn't Christmas originally a Pagan holiday, centered around the winter equinox? Or it could be that I am associating 'muggle' with 'Christian'. Michelle :) Actually Samhain and Yule are very different from the Christian equilvent, they were invented by the Christians when they were attempting to convert Pagans, Heidi H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pbnesbit at msn.com Sun Aug 5 23:10:22 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 23:10:22 -0000 Subject: Flitwick's first name/Canon In-Reply-To: <9kjg70+10gi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kkjou+fpo1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23668 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > > BTW, according to the trading cards, Flitwick's first name is > Filius. > > So do I put that in the Lexicon? I'm unsure... > > The implication on www.hpgalleries.com (movie stills series 4) seems > to be that the new poster book also gives Filius as Flitwick's first > name. This seems closer to canon than trading cards. Anyone got the > book? > > Amy Z I've got the poster book (and a gorgeous one it is, too), but there are no names anywhere. Just pictures. Peace & Plenty, Parker From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 23:47:04 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 23:47:04 -0000 Subject: Origin of Halloween: (Was Religion in the wizarding world) In-Reply-To: <9kkh5i+1qo4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kklto+pckn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23669 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > Margaret Dean wrote: "...Hogwarts celebrates Muggle holidays such as > Christmas and Halloween." > > Um ... isn't Hallowe'en (Samhain) a Pagan holiday? And wasn't > Christmas originally a Pagan holiday, centered around the winter > equinox? > > Or it could be that I am associating 'muggle' with 'Christian'. > > Michelle :) As I understand it, the Catholic calendar has a lot of days dedicated to individual saints. In addition to this singular days, there is/was a day set apart where you celebrate all the saints at once. That day is/was called "All Hallows' Day". This falls on the first of November. So, the night before "All Hallow's Day" would be known as "All Hallows' Eve". This has been corrupted over the centuries into "Halloween". Now as to there being some pagan day associated with the 31st of October, I cannot say. Maybe somebody more knowledgable than I could add some words of wisdom here. :) Marcus From supergirl1024 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 23:53:02 2001 From: supergirl1024 at yahoo.com (Gwyneth) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 23:53:02 -0000 Subject: Warlocks, Wizards, and their Wardrobes Message-ID: <9kkm8u+13tq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23670 A simple question, hoping for a simple answer: What's a Warlock? What makes a Warlock different from a Wizard? Because Dumbledore is Head Warlock or something-like-that, is he a Warlock? So can a Warlock be a Wizard? Are all warlocks wizards? Are all wizards warlocks? Can a witch be a warlock? What is a warlock? Okay, maybe that was more than A question. But I'm interested in knowing. A second question, maybe not so simple: We know that many wizards have trouble with Muggle clothes. So do they wear robes all the time? Certainly the children don't, they are often described as wearing muggle clothes, from Percy pinning his prefect badge to a sweater vest, to Ron mistaking dress robes for a dress of Ginny's, to the Weasley Christmas Sweaters. I get the impression that all Wizard children wear muggle clothes to Kings' Cross Station. So weren't the adult wizards once kids, do they suddenly lose all fashion sense? And where do the kids learn their knowledge of muggle clothes? And of course, where do they get the muggle clothes they do own, and with what money? Do they often trade wizard galleons for muggle pounds? Am I reading too far into the story? Please, don't answer that last question. ~Gwyneth From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 23:53:13 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 23:53:13 -0000 Subject: Urgent: Snape in a dress! In-Reply-To: <9kk1vv+fsv0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kkm99+4mpv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23671 http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/clothing.html > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Hey Steve. You listed Hermione twice under the Dress robes. Marcus From usergoogol at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 23:56:14 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 23:56:14 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? Message-ID: <9kkmeu+m5gh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23672 On an NPR call in show, J.K. Rowling said to a caller that one of Harry's peers would become a teacher, and it wasn't Hermione. The caller then asked if it was the third of the triumvrate (Ron) and the abswer was no. So, which one will become a teacher? My guess has always been Neville. Due to the fact that he's a pretty important character (more important than Seamus, in my opinion) and I just don't think that Draco could be a teacher. (Interesting thought though.) Also, the slightly more obscure characters just don't seem very likely. Also, Neville's persona seems very teacher like. (Forgetful seems like a good one.) He's also pretty good at Herbology, so he has something which he could teach. Um... if anyone has any other proof, post it. If anyone disagrees, post again. If anyone has anything witty to say, you can post that too! From morgan_793 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 00:00:57 2001 From: morgan_793 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?=20?=) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 01:00:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion in the wizarding world In-Reply-To: <9kkh5i+1qo4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806000057.1807.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23673 --- "M. Barnett" wrote: > Margaret Dean wrote: "...Hogwarts celebrates Muggle holidays such as > > Christmas and Halloween." > > Um ... isn't Hallowe'en (Samhain) a Pagan holiday? And wasn't > Christmas originally a Pagan holiday, centered around the winter > equinox? The word "Halloween" is derived from All Hallows Eve, the run-up to ALl Saints Day. The Celtic festival Samhain (pronounced sow-in) did take place at approximately the same time -- give or take several hundred years and the advent of Christianization. The Winter *Solstice* (shortest day of the year) is in December; the end of October is roughly half-way between the Fall Equinox in September and the Winter Solstice in December. Christmas is only one of a number of holidays that took place around the winter solstice. The Roman State religion had one, the Mithraists had one, the Germanic people had Yule (from whence we get the Yule log and other such references). One note: while the Celts had Samhain, there's no evidence they celebrated the winter solstice. ===== Respectfully, Morgan "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes." ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From usergoogol at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 00:00:56 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 00:00:56 -0000 Subject: Halloween (RE: Religion in the wizarding world) In-Reply-To: <9kklto+pckn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kkmno+orij@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23674 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > As I understand it, the Catholic calendar has a lot of days dedicated > to individual saints. In addition to this singular days, there > is/was a day set apart where you celebrate all the saints at once. > That day is/was called "All Hallows' Day". This falls on the first > of November. > > So, the night before "All Hallow's Day" would be known as "All > Hallows' Eve". This has been corrupted over the centuries > into "Halloween". > > Now as to there being some pagan day associated with the 31st of > October, I cannot say. Maybe somebody more knowledgable than I could > add some words of wisdom here. :) > > Marcus In early Celtic tradition, Samahain or whatever, was the harvest festival. It was also believed that on that day, the gate between the realm of the living and the realm of the dead became more open. Then when the Celtic regions converted to Christianity, it was replaced by All Hallow's Eve, although many old traditions survived. (The connection between ghosts and halloween.) From saitaina at wizzards.net Mon Aug 6 00:16:20 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 17:16:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Origin of Halloween: (Was Religion in the wizarding world) References: <9kklto+pckn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <008001c11e0d$06254b00$904e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 23675 Halloween, Christmas and Easter were all pagen holiday's addapted by the Churge to make Christianity appeal to Pagans. If youw ant a full work up of each holliday I can send you my rant on this subject that I wrote a while back that never got published. (It was supposed to be a defending of Harry Potter but turned into a three page history lesson). Saitaina ***** "Oh, yeah," said Harry, who was shaking with rage and hardly knew what he was saying, "me and the Slytherins, we all got together and had a bake sale, raised loads of money for evil, no worries there." -Draco Dormiens, Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter (fanfiction) "Wow," said Harry in a lifeless voice. "It's lovely, Mum. I bet all the other kids will wish they had a blanket with a really horrible motto on it just like this one." -Draco Dormiens, Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter (fanfiction) "Right," said Draco. "Tell me: when did the Boy Who Lived become The Boy Who Sulked?" -Draco Dormiens, Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter (fanfiction) "Better than Way Too Late Guy," Said Ron. "Better than, Just Stood Back Like a Prad And Watched Her Go Off With Malfoy Guy."-Ron, "Draco Dormiens, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic From deeblite at home.com Mon Aug 6 01:04:29 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 21:04:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Deaths of Beloved Characters, and related subjects In-Reply-To: <3B6D7EF6.5291247F@texas.net> References: <9kjq57+4ir9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010805210214.00a60ec0@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23676 At 12:14 PM 8/5/01 -0500, you wrote: > > I have a hypothetical question. If Harry had refused to take the cup, > > and Cedric had been forced into taking it, what would Crouch/Moody > > have done to resolve the situation? > >Hm. Probably awaited developments? Either that or created a distraction >and then gone into the maze to transport Harry to Voldemort another >way...? I dunno.. if you remember, at the beginning it's mentioned that the ritual doesn't NEED Harry to be a success- any wizard would do. Voldemort just loved the irony of the wizard who brought about his downfall being the one that enabled him to come back. I think the ritual would've gone ahead with cedric being the blood donor, and Voldemort would've then killed Cedric and done whatever he was planning to do (use the Triwizard cup to get into hogwarts and go crazy?) -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From relliott at jvlnet.com Mon Aug 6 01:19:15 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 20:19:15 -0500 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? References: <997056061.2403.12847.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c11e15$cfb9eea0$96b291d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23677 My first thought was Fleur Delacour. She wasn't a Hogwarts classmate but, graduated from wizard school. She did state that she wanted to come back to practice her English. Maybe Viktor Krum? Not quiet sure what the qualifications for teaching are. Is there some sort of wizard college or is high school enough? If JKR is trying to go for parallel universes of Hogwarts students, I would have to say Draco Malfoy?? Strange thought. But then again, he has only competed his "freshman" year of school. All of the characters have a lot of social, emotional, and behavioral stages and changes to make. If Snape can get away from the dark side and get a second chance and teach at Hogwarts, I am sure Malfoy can as well. From chaos_dragon_99 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 01:29:23 2001 From: chaos_dragon_99 at yahoo.com (Chaos Dragon) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 18:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 1096 In-Reply-To: <996539057.2411.47936.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806012923.99404.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23678 > Message: 23 > Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:07:33 -0000 > From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com > Subject: Re: Old Dark Magic > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > > > > > In GOF Voldemort says that his rebirthing is a piece of old Dark > > > Magic. But Voldemort is the only known case of a person > disembodied > > > by a failed Avada Kedavra spell. > > > > Slightly off-topic--nobody in recent times has cared to speculate on > > why, precisely, the spell didn't just *fail.* Sail on off past > Harry and > > into the night (or the wall, whatever). What caused it to > *rebound,* why > > should it? None of the other spells we've seen that didn't come off, > > rebounded.... > > I think it's probably due to the strange relationship between the two > of them - which I think existed before spell (both look similar as > well some other stuff). It's all probably related as well to why YKW > wanted to kill him. Quite how any of this ties in with itself or the > Harry-knowing-the-name-of-Tom-Riddle thing we were talking about > before are beyond me. I've got a feeling we probably won't find out > until Book 7. i'm going to add my 0.02 in on this, as a thought just occurred to me. despite the fact that in CoS it was said that only a descendant of gryffindor could pull the sword from the hat (which harry did thus translating to harry being a descendant of godric) it's possible the transferrance of powers and basic "knowing" is also because of bloodlines. the sprting hat said that harry would do well in slitherin. what's to say that's not because he is also a descendant of that line? sorry if it's been brought up before... ~chaos dragon ===== Listee for Edward Skll of the Pack of Shadows ========================================================= The Dragon Lair http://fly.to/the_dragon_lair Carpe Noctem http://bite.to/carpenoctem __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From JenniferABacker at cs.com Mon Aug 6 01:39:11 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 21:39:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 1096 Message-ID: <67.17e6ae69.289f4f3f@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23679 No, it says this: "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled THIS out of the hat Harry." Big difference than saying he's a descendant! He was just trying to prove to Harry that he was put in the right house. He could be though! Forge From MmeBurgess at msn.com Mon Aug 6 01:41:12 2001 From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 01:41:12 -0000 Subject: Halloween and religion in the wizarding world Message-ID: <9kksjo+3v9n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23680 Hi all! I've seen the past thread about Halloween and its history. I did an undergrad project once on the history of Halloween. Of course, the lesson was geared towards elementary school students, but I still have some of the web sites. One of the best was put out by the Dauphin County Library System. It talks about Halloween and how it has changed over the years. The web site is: http://dcls.org/x/archives/halloween.html As far as religion in the wizarding world goes, I personnaly like to believe that witches and wizards in the Potterverse don't see a problem with religion and their magic. In my mind, their magic doesn't interfere with belief in a higher power or for that matter, belief of any kind, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, Wiccan, atheist or agnostic. Their magic would just be a different part of who they are, like a special talent for languages or music. Their special talent is magic. I hope this has made sense and isn't *too* rambling. Angela Burgess From vderark at bccs.org Mon Aug 6 01:48:10 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 01:48:10 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 1096 In-Reply-To: <20010806012923.99404.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kkt0q+gb9b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23681 > despite the fact that in CoS it was said that only a descendant of > gryffindor could pull the sword from the hat (which harry did thus > translating to harry being a descendant of godric) It doesn't say this, actually. Although I tend to believe too that Harry and Dumbledore are both decendents of Gryffindor, the book doesn't say so. The actual sentence is: "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat, Harry," said Dumbledore simply. That means someone who truly belongs in Gryffindor House, not someone who is directly decendent from Godric himself. Harry isn't wondering if he's a decendent, he's wondering if he belongs in that house as opposed to Slytherin, so that's the worry that Dumbledore is addressing. On a vaguely related note, I wonder if Fawkes once belonged to Gryffindor himself. The bird is essentially immortal, after all. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 01:57:43 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 18:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion in the wizarding world In-Reply-To: <9kkh5i+1qo4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806015743.81060.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23682 --- "M. Barnett" wrote: > Margaret Dean wrote: "...Hogwarts celebrates Muggle > holidays such as > Christmas and Halloween." > > Um ... isn't Hallowe'en (Samhain) a Pagan holiday? > And wasn't > Christmas originally a Pagan holiday, centered > around the winter > equinox? > > Or it could be that I am associating 'muggle' with > 'Christian'. > > Michelle :) > > That is corrrect, Samhain is the origin of the holiday now known as Halloween. And many of the symbols that are now associated with the holiday of Christmas did originate in the pagan celebration of Yule (Yule Log ring any bells anyone?) which is traditionally celebrated on Dec 22 or Dec 23. For pagans this is a time of celebrating the promise of renewal (hmm...sound familiar?) and the coming return of spring. Hope that helps. :) Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mindyatime at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 04:04:23 2001 From: mindyatime at yahoo.com (Mindy) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 04:04:23 -0000 Subject: James Potter -- A Stag? Message-ID: <9kl507+fonm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23683 OK. One thing I don't get. If James Potter turned into a Stag, then how on earth did he fit into the Whomping Willow tree to join Lupin the werewolf every month? He'd be noticed in no time -- a dog or rat can be unnoticed but not a STAG! Any answers? From mindyatime at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 04:19:43 2001 From: mindyatime at yahoo.com (Mindy) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 04:19:43 -0000 Subject: Burning questions Message-ID: <9kl5sv+hp97@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23684 I found this on the i2k site: Why change the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey? Wouldn't it have been easier for Moody to just change something else--a book, for example-- and get Harry to touch it at some point? Why all the elaborate charade with entering Harry into the Triwizard Tournament, helping him to win, etc.? And this question is really bugging me. WHY INDEED did it have to be in such a roundabout manner, when any little item cold've been turned into a portkey -- why specifically the cup, and make it so elaborate? Can a nyone answer? If it was already answered earlier, sorry, I just joined the group, direct me please to the anser. thanks. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Aug 6 04:21:27 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 04:21:27 -0000 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 Message-ID: <9kl607+96a8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23685 Hi everybody, so, this is my first summary, hope you like it. I think it was who did chapters 3&4 who said that finding questions for these first chapters was a bit difficult, as they are rather straight. So I hope you don't find them too artificial. Enjoy and have a nice week everybody Susanna ____________________________________________________________________ Chapter 5- The Whomping Willow The summer holidays have come to an end and after an opulent good bye- dinner, on 1 September everybody gets up at dawn. Mr. Weasley takes everybody to King's cross station in his magically modified ford Anglia, which oddly offers space for eight persons and their trunks, owls etc. Question 1: Mrs. Weasley certainly is neither stupid nor dull. How come she doesn't notice the magical transformations the car has undergone? ("Muggles *do* know more than we give them credit for, don't they?") Three of the Weasley children having forgotten something important, they have to turn back three times and, as Mrs Weasley won't allow her husband to use the Invisibility booster and simply fly the car, the party arrives at the station rather late. Question 2: I'd like you to express your opinions on the couple Molly&Arthur. They seem to get on very well, but would you say the have a relationship of equals? Their group of eight has 5 minutes to walk through the barrier that separates them from platform nine and three quarters, everybody passes through, only the last couple, Harry and Ron, are unable to get through, as the barrier is mysteriously sealed. Question 3: Did anybody at this point think it had something to do with Dobby or did you attribute the sealing of the gate to their being late (it rhymes, I'm thunderstruck with my own talent!)? Having crashed into the barrier, they attract a lot of Muggle attention and, as they have now definitely missed the train, Harry suggests to return to the car and wait for Ron's parents. At the mention of the car, Ron suddenly has the "brilliant" idea that the two of them might fly to Hogwarts by car. Harry's scruples about breaking the law are soon overcome, they put their trunks and Hedwig's cage back into the car, Ron starts it and off they go. Question 4: (As the question about starting the car/underage magic has already been sufficiently discussed, I just leave it out. BUT:) Doesn't this scene tell us something about Ron? He knows that Harry has already got one warning from the MoM and will face expulsion if he's caught doing Underage Magic another time. Is Ron selfishly trying to show off? Is he extremely impulsive? Their takeoff goes unnoticed, as the street is deserted and Ron has activated the Invisibility Booster, but this device is obviously malfunctioning, causing them to reappear every now and then. Fortunately, the sky is overcast, so they hurry to get above the clouds and just make a dive every half an hour to check whether they are still following the train. Question 5: Do you think the weather in general and the meteorological conditions on 1 September have a symbolical value in the books? Is it important that, as the books are getting "darker", the weather on the day of departure is getting worse with every book? Harry and Ron's initial enthusiasm wears off rather quickly, as they have neither food (except for some some toffees) nor drink, and after some hours even the thought of a spectacular entrance at Hogwarts fails to cheer them up. When the boys feel that they should be near their destination, the engine suddenly begins to make strange sounds. Question 6: What do you think the car is running on? And why does the engine die at this point? Ron tries to calm the car, telling it they've nearly arrived, but when they are flying over the lake, the engine finally breaks down; Ron manages to avoid the worst, steering them past the castle walls to land somewhere on the grounds. A few seconds later, Ron and Harry become aware that they couldn't have chosen a worse point for their touchdown: They've hit the Whomping Willow, a very self-defending tree that likes nothing less than being punched. The tree strikes back at the car, which, in a desperate last effort, backs off, expels the two boys and their luggage and vanishes into the darkness. Ron is desperate, as the car is gone and his wand has been damaged, it's nearly broken in two. Bruised, bleeding and their dream of a triumphant arrival gone to pieces, the two boys grab their trunks and Hedwig and walk towards the castle. They peer through the windows, see that the Sorting has started and wonder what might have become of Snape, whose seat is empty. In the midst of their wildest fantasies of Snape having been sacked, being ill etc., they hear his voice from behind their backs, asking them why they weren't on the school train. Question 7: Why does Snape wait for them?( It should be McGonagall who is Head of Gryffindor. She does not necessarily have to survey the Sorting ceremony, as we know from PoA, where she summons Harry and Hermione into her office, while Prof. Flitwick replaces her at the Sorting.) Snape beckons Harry and Ron into his office, where he confronts them with the latest edition of the Daily Prophet: It reports that their car was seen by various Muggles, and Snape makes a rather nasty comment at Mr. Weasley's probable embarrassment that his own son will be found to have committed a Misuse of a Muggle Artefact. The boys recognize the full extent of what they have done; Snape, pointing out that they should be expelled but that the final decision is not up to him, leaves them to fetch McGonagall. When they both return, Ron tells McGonagall all about the sealed gate and how desperate he and Harry were. McGonagall points out that they could have sent Hedwig to Hogwarts with a letter explaining eveything. Dumbledore joins them, and without any trace of his usual irony, requests an explanation for what they did. This time, it's Harry's turn to speak, he pours out the whole story, afraid only that Dumbledore might ask who bewitched the car in the first place. After he has finished, they both wait for Dumbledore to announce their expulsion. But neither Dumbledore nor McGonagall choose this drastic punishment, they will only have to do detentions. Question 8: What Ron and Harry did, would certainly have been worth expulsion. Much as we all like the two of them, do you think it OK McGonagall lets them get away just with detention? And why do you think she made this decision? When they arrive at the Gryffindor Common Room, everybody greats them as the heroes of the day, except Hermione who is very upset about the danger they were in and, of course, about all the rules they have broken. Both Harry and Ron feel guilty, but can't resist the general hilarity. Question 9: If Hermione had been with them at King's Cross, do you think the two boys would have convinced her to fly to Hogwarts with them by car? ( Later on in the book (Polyjuice Potion) we see that Hermione is as capable of rule- breaking as the other two, which she has already demonstrated in the Norbert- episode in PS/SS) CHAPTER 6- Gilderoy Lockhart The next day at breakfast, however, they are sobered up by a Howler Ron receives from Mrs. Weasley, that reminds both the boys of the problems they have caused Mr. Weasley, who is now facing an official enquiry at the MoM. Question 10: It has never been made really clear how Mr. Weasley managed to keep his job at the MoM, given that the charge against him was quite serious (Rita Skeeter's article in GoF only mentions that he was charged with the illegal possession of an enchanted car) . How do you think he got himself out? The Gryffindors leave for their first lesson of the term, which is Herbology, together with the Hufflepuffs. Hermione, obviously thinking that the Howler was sufficient punishment, has returned to perfect friendliness with Harry and Ron. At the greenhouses, the class is waiting for Prof. Sprout who arrives some minutes late, accompanied by Prof. Lockhart. She has put bandages on the injured branches of the Whomping Willow and Lockhart claims to have given her useful advice, implying that he knows a lot more about plants than Prof. Sprout. Question 11: I cannot get rid of the thought that some of the less important characters, and especially Lockhart, are caricatures of very real and unpleasant persons JKR met and couldn't resist to have her little revenge on. What do you think? Lockhart asks Harry to have a word with him outside the greenhouse and, in what he seems to think a very fatherly way, completely misinterpreting the car incident, scolds Harry for wanting to attract everybody's attention. Harry is too bewildered to correct him, when Lockhart puts all the blame on himself, believing that Harry did everything to equal the fame of his personal hero Lockhart. Question 12: Do you think that Lockhart's way of presenting himself as The- One- Who- Always- Knows- Best is a result of stupidity combined with selfishness and conceit, or is it simply a calculated strategy, trying how far people will let him go (following Hitler's famous: The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it)? Is he a Slytherin? When Harry finally joins the class, Prof Sprout is explaining about Mandrakes, magical plants whose roots look like extremely ugly babies. They are used for restorative draughts, as they have the power to unmake curses or spells and return people to their original state. But they are also very dangerous plants, as their cry is absolutely lethal. Question 13: Which part of the plant is used for potion- making? Do they chop up the leaves or the "roots" (eurgh!!)? And if it's the leaves, what happens to the "roots"? Sorry, but this has been tormenting me since I first read the book. The lesson is spent re-potting the Mandrakes, with everybody wearing soundproof earmuffs. As the student's skills are not identical to Prof. Sprout's, they have a lot of trouble re-potting them and at the end of the lesson, everybody is rather sweaty and dirty. The following Charms Class doesn't turn out much better for Ron, who is having great difficulties with his broken and completely uncontrollable wand, mended with spellotape. Ron refuses to write to his parents and ask for a new one, as he fears that all he might get back is another howler. Harry's day doesn't turn out much better than Ron's: After lunch, they have their first DADA lesson (much looked forward to by Hermione who's got a huge crush on Lockhart) and while the students are spending the rest of the lunch break in the courtyard, Harry is approached by a first- year named Colin Creevey who wants to take his photo. Unfortunately, the scene is overheard by Draco Malfoy who starts taunting Harry about giving out signed photos (Colin Creevey tells him he's just jealous) and Ron about the howler he got in the morning. Question 14: The general opinion about Colin Creevey isn't too positive but what about his behaviour during this scene? Standing up to Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, on his first day at Hogwarts and furthermore being Muggle- born, indicates that he has a lot of courage. And what do you think about his surprising psychological insight? Is Malfoy really jealous of Harry? Before it comes to a fight, Lockhart makes his appearance, asking what it's all about. He offers Colin to take a photo of him and a very reluctant Harry, which they will both sign for him. The bell rings and everybody hurries to their lessons, Lockhart keeps up the rear with Harry and gives him another unwanted lecture about ambition and its dangers. The DADA class starts in a rather unexpected way: Lockhart announces that he's going to examine the students' knowledge, but the test consists of 54 uniquely Lockhart-related questions only Hermione has got the right answers to. The rest of the lesson is not only unexpected, but full- fledged chaos: Announcing that they will have to fight against some of the foulest creatures known to wizardkind, he lets free a cageful of Cornish Pixies, which seem to be more trouble- makers than actually dangerous, and promptly begin to devastate the classroom. Lockhart's counter- spell fails completely, the Pixies even take away his wand and throw it out of the window. In the midst of this pandemonium, the bell rings and Lockhart goes away together with the other students, leaving Harry, Ron and Hermione in charge of de-Pixie-ing the classroom. Ron utters serious doubts about Lockhart's having really done everything he claims to have done in his books. Question 15: How come that Hermione who as far as we know her, is not a person to judge people because of their looks, is so easily fooled by Lockhart? If not his tactless behaviour to Prof. Sprout, at least the Pixie incident should have cast some light upon who and what he really is. From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Mon Aug 6 04:52:29 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 04:52:29 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <9kjngb+bpsf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kl7qd+ev4a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23686 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > Anyway the character that scares me the most. This is probably going > to be unusual but it has to be Peter Pettigrew. I know that he's > portrayed as a snivelling (sp?) coward but the fact that he betrayed > two of his best friends and then set another one up really chilled > me. I often find human characters more scary than monsters because > it's very likely that there are people just like them in the real > world and that you might know them. Yes, Peter Pettigrew is the scariest character in the book. The frightening thing about Peter is that he would still be James, Sirius and Remus's friend if there's no Voldemort. His lack of 'intimidation' factor makes him even more scary -- how do you spot a villain when he's your childhood friend? From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 05:04:25 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 05:04:25 -0000 Subject: James Potter -- A Stag? In-Reply-To: <9kl507+fonm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kl8gp+g5e4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23687 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy" wrote: > OK. One thing I don't get. If James Potter turned into a Stag, then > how on earth did he fit into the Whomping Willow tree to join Lupin > the werewolf every month? He'd be noticed in no time -- a dog or rat > can be unnoticed but not a STAG! Any answers? Well, who says he went through the tunnel as Prongs? Who says he went through the tunnel at all, except to stop Snape from getting attacked? Marcus From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 6 05:07:41 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 05:07:41 -0000 Subject: Blast-Ended Skrewt (filk) Message-ID: <9kl8mt+k9jh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23688 Blast-Ended Skrewt (To the tune of Little Deuce Coupe) Dedicated to "Aberforth's Goat" THE SCENE: Outside Hagrid's cabin. Enter HAGRID, with a Blast-Ended Skrewt in tow. Following, as a reluctant backup chorus, HARRY, RON and HERMIONE, each with a Skrewt of their own on lead HAGRID I'm not braggin' here but I'm making folks talk Whenever I take my critter pal for a walk She always makes her impact quite sensationally `Cause she's so good at incineration, you see ALL She's my/his Blast-Ended Skrewt You can tell that she's hot HAGRID Just a Blast-Ended Skrewt lacking all mouthparts But she'll double soon in size like the Chicken Heart* She simmers and smolders and she'll roast and she'll blaze She's everything you need for hosting *auto-de-f?s* ALL She's my/his Blast-Ended Skrewt You can tell that she's hot HAGRID When in The Forbidden Forest on a camping trip Forgot to bring my matches, couldn't find two sticks But thanks to our Skrewt, our dinner was well-done `Though we got a nasty look from Smokey the Bear She likes a Fahrenheit that would melt igneous rocks But she'll let you take her home and nail her up in a box And even though she may singe and scorch She's a creature for whom I'll always carry a torch HARRY, RON & HERMIONE She's his Blast-Ended Skrewt You can have the whole lot She's his Blast-Ended Skrewt You can have the whole lot - CMC *NOTE: Is the notorious Chicken Heart that swallowed the world still an integral part of today's Cultural Education? Do people at least remember Bill Cosby take-off of same? Chicken Heart, The (radio episode) - A classic radio horror episode of Lights Out in which scientists performing experiments on a chicken heart cause it to mutate and grow until finally it envelops the earth, destroying everything and everyone in its path. This information was obtained from http://www.geocities.com/Daggerofthemind2000/Dossier/CNames.html From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 05:22:43 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 05:22:43 -0000 Subject: Burning questions In-Reply-To: <9kl5sv+hp97@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kl9j3+maen@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23689 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy" wrote: > I found this on the i2k site: > > Why change the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey? Wouldn't it have been > easier for Moody to just change something else--a book, for example- - > and get Harry to touch it at some point? Why all the elaborate > charade with entering Harry into the Triwizard Tournament, helping > him to win, etc.? > > And this question is really bugging me. WHY INDEED did it have to be > in such a roundabout manner, when any little item cold've been turned > into a portkey -- why specifically the cup, and make it so elaborate? > > Can a nyone answer? > > If it was already answered earlier, sorry, I just joined the group, > direct me please to the anser. thanks. Yes, Mindy, it's been asked quite often, and -- as you say -- not just on this board. It's likely the second most asked question concerning GoF; after "the Gleam", of course. In spite of all the brain electrons used up on it, there isn't really a definitive answer. For wbat it is worth, here's my thinking: If Bart Jr. had made something else the portkey, how would he guarentee that it would be touched by Harry and only Harry and in a manner that did not immediately expose Pseudo-Moody as the fink? Now if ol' Barty didn't mind being a martyr, then he could easily have sent Harry on his way any time he wanted. However, if he cared for his own skin at all, it makes things a whole lot trickier. How would you propose he do it? Marcus From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Aug 6 05:23:17 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 05:23:17 -0000 Subject: Stags stuck in tunnels, Death in HP Message-ID: <9kl9k5+sj9t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23690 Mindy wrote: Message-ID: <9kl9qp+elus@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23691 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy" wrote: > Why change the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey? Wouldn't it have been > easier for Moody to just change something else--a book, for example-- > and get Harry to touch it at some point? Why all the elaborate > charade with entering Harry into the Triwizard Tournament, helping > him to win, etc.? > ~ I agree that it would have been easier if Moody/Crouch Jr. had changed something else, rather than the Cup, into a Portkey. It was a risky chance for Voldemort to take - Harry might not have won the tournament. Cedric almost did. But I believe that the thought process in making the Cup a portkey was that, if Harry dissapeared for a while, it would go unnoticed because people would pass it off as Harry getting into a situation in the maze. By the time people would have realized Harry was gone, (if the plan had been successfully executed) Harry would have been dead or very well near it. A question I do have about the Cup however, is: Did Harry ever get to keep the Cup? I do not remember it being mentioned. - Elizabeth From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 6 05:42:20 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 05:42:20 -0000 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 In-Reply-To: <9kl607+96a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9klans+upfp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23692 > Question 1: Mrs. Weasley certainly is neither stupid nor dull. > How come she doesn't notice the magical transformations the car > has undergone? ("Muggles *do* know more than we give them credit > for, don't they?") I think perhaps she just overlooks them this time. Everything is a mess and they are already running late, but I'll bet Arthur got his ear chewed off once they got back home. > > > Question 2: I'd like you to express your opinions on the couple > Molly&Arthur. They seem to get on very well, but would you say > the have a relationship of equals? I do think they are equals, rather perfectly matched to make a whole. Arthur is laid back, willing to take things in stride, but quite willing to act when he needs to ... Molly would rather have the rules followed, but is lenient when she needs to be. > > Question 3: Did anybody at this point think it had something to do with Dobby or did you attribute the sealing of the gate to their > being late (it rhymes, I'm thunderstruck with my own talent!)? WHat a poet! :) Somewhere in the back of my head I wondered if it had something to do with Dobby, but settled on it being because they were late. Just goes to prove, you should always go with your first answer if you aren't sure! > > > Question 4: (As the question about starting the car/underage magic has already been sufficiently discussed, I just leave it out. > BUT:) Doesn't this scene tell us something about Ron? He knows > that Harry has already got one warning from the MoM and will face > expulsion if he's caught doing Underage Magic another time. Is Ron selfishly trying to show off? Is he extremely impulsive? I actually think Ron is acting selfLESSly, thinking he'd get in more trouble than Harry would, because he actually flew the car and Harry was just a passenger. I do think he is impulsive though. If they'd sat backa nd thought about it for a moment, they'd have realized that Molly and Arthur would be coming back for he car and they could take them to hogwarts, or find another way for them to get where they need to be (Knight Bus, Floo powder, etc.) > > > Question 5: Do you think the weather in general and the > meteorological conditions on 1 September have a symbolical value > in the books? Is it important that, as the books are > getting "darker", the weather on the day of departure is getting > worse with every book? It does seem that way, but wasn't the night Voldie returned a cear night? SO not all bad things come with bad weather. > > > > Question 6: What do you think the car is running on? And why does the engine die at this point? Ummm .... good question. I think the car is running on good looks :) Actually I haven't the foggiest idea. As for why it dies when it does, duh, so it could run into the Whomping Willow! > > > Question 7: Why does Snape wait for them?( It should be McGonagall who is Head of Gryffindor. She does not necessarily have to survey the Sorting ceremony, as we know from PoA, where she summons Harry and Hermione into her office, while Prof. Flitwick replaces her at the Sorting.) Perhaps things were so busy that McGonagall or Dumbledore didn't notice that Harry and Ron hadn't shown up yet. And Snape, being the observant one, picked up on it and figured he'd check it out and hopefully find them doing something they shouldn't so he can get them kicked out. > > > > Question 8: What Ron and Harry did, would certainly have been > worth expulsion. Much as we all like the two of them, do you think it OK McGonagall lets them get away just with detention? And why > do you think she made this decision? Well, they gave Malfoy and crew only detentions for the Dementor trick on Harry in PoA, so it seems that leniency is a constant for punishments. Of course, the best punishment ever was "Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret" :) > > > Question 9: If Hermione had been with them at King's Cross, do you think the two boys would have convinced her to fly to Hogwarts > with them by car? ( Later on in the book (Polyjuice Potion) we see that Hermione is as capable of rule- breaking as the other two, > which she has already demonstrated in the Norbert- episode in > PS/SS) I don't know if Hermione would have gone along with it at this point. By GoF, sure. But right now, I think she'd try and convince them to what for Mr. & Mrs. Weasley. > > Question 10: It has never been made really clear how Mr. Weasley > managed to keep his job at the MoM, given that the charge against > him was quite serious (Rita Skeeter's article in GoF only mentions > that he was charged with the illegal possession of an enchanted > car) . How do you think he got himself out? Arthur probably has a few contacts that owe him some favors, so he called in those favors. Of course, he can't get away with something that big again, but I think a flying car is the least of his worries now. > > Question 11: I cannot get rid of the thought that some of the less important characters, and especially Lockhart, are caricatures of > very real and unpleasant persons JKR met and couldn't resist to > have her little revenge on. What do you think? I think it could be one of those write what you know things. Of course, not everything in HP can be written from first hand knowledge, but people surely can be. > > > Question 12: Do you think that Lockhart's way of presenting > himself as The- One- Who- Always- Knows- Best is a result of > stupidity combined with selfishness and conceit, or is it simply a calculated strategy, trying how far people will let him go > (following Hitler's famous: The bigger the lie, the more people > will believe it)? Is he a Slytherin? I think he truly believes he knows all and is the best at everything. He's a Slytherin ... smarmy bloke that he is. > > > Question 13: Which part of the plant is used for potion- making? > Do they chop up the leaves or the "roots" (eurgh!!)? And if it's > the leaves, what happens to the "roots"? Sorry, but this has been > tormenting me since I first read the book. I am hoping they use the leaves ... and that when the leaves are cut off, the cry of the mandrake is no longer deadly and they become harmless, or better yet, like when a bee loses its stinger it dies, when a mandrake loses its leaves it dies. swift and painless :) > > > Question 14: The general opinion about Colin Creevey isn't too > positive but what about his behaviour during this scene? Standing > up to Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, on his first day at Hogwarts and > furthermore being Muggle- born, indicates that he has a lot of > courage. And what do you think about his surprising psychological > insight? Is Malfoy really jealous of Harry? Colin Creevey is just so impressed to know the person most revered in his new culture, he can't help being annoying. It'd be like me knowing the guy who invented the halligan tool. what a genius he is. oh sorry, but I think Colin's bravery in standing up to malfoy and Co, was partly due to the fact that he didn't knwowho they were. If he'd only been with his feloow house mates, he wouldn't really know who the bad guys are. And of course Malfoy is jealous of Harry. He gets all the attention that Malfoy wants. > > > Question 15: How come that Hermione who as far as we know her, is > not a person to judge people because of their looks, is so easily > fooled by Lockhart? If not his tactless behaviour to Prof. Sprout, > at least the Pixie incident should have cast some light upon who > and what he really is. This goes back to someones theory that Lockhart has a Charm charm on his books, perhaps even on his person to make people, especially women, think he is wonderful. He's just annoying. michelle :) p.s. Great summary Susanna :) but, I, personally, like all the questions at the end ... makes for less editing ... but that's just me ... And yeah. :) From mediaphen at hotmail.com Mon Aug 6 08:37:13 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 08:37:13 -0000 Subject: FILK: We Do! (The Death Eaters' Song) Message-ID: <9klkvp+esok@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23693 WE DO! (THE DEATH EATERS' SONG) (Based on the song "We Do! (the Stonecutters' Song) from The Simpsons, original lyrics can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/1263/songs.html ) The scene: Malfoy Mansion, during VRoT - Narcissa (spoken): Lucius, a man who called himself You-Know-Who just invited you to a secret wink-wink at the you-know-what. You surely are popular now that you're a Death Eater. - Lucius (spoken): Oh, yeah. (reads official D.E. Calendar (TM)) "Muggle tortures, Mudblood killings, curses, Slytherin Selebrations, D.E. meetings, Parseltounge Parties " It's wonderful, Narcissa! I've never felt so accepted in all my life. These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined. Switch to a huge dinner table, assembled DE:s swinging goblets of butterbeer Death Eaters (singing): Who controls the Gringott's bank? Who kills Muggles just for prank? We do! We do! Who loves unforgivable curse? Who thinks Mudbloods are scum, or worse? We do! We do! Who holds back Dumbledore's old crowd? Who says "Avada Kedavra" out loud? We do! We do! Who obeys lord Voldie's word? Who makes plans to rule the world? We do! We do! Three filks in a week, and I still don't know the meaning or origin of the word/phrase/short term "filk". Martin From tabouli at unite.com.au Mon Aug 6 09:00:31 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 19:00:31 +1000 Subject: Why HP is so popular Message-ID: <008601c11e56$6f07fde0$21856fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 23694 I have long been formulating a theory about this. One element is that JKR is treading an ingenious middle ground between the realism and fantasy genres. There seems to be a taste spectrum in terms of how much fantasy a reader is willing to tolerate. Some people are totally bored and turned off by anything they can't relate to immediately: they like their books set in their time, in a society they can recognise and understand, where things that could conceivably happen in "real life" happen and so on. Others are totally turned off by anything too mundane and close to real life: they like their reading escapist, with characters and happenings and powers that couldn't happen in real life (I was of the latter faith as a teenager: to those who sneered "But it's not REAL!" I'd reply "Why would I want to read about real life when I can just step out the door?"). In between we have gradations, the types who like realistic science fiction, or carefully researched historical fiction, or magic realism, and so on. Harry Potter sits nicely in the middle ground, where *both* ends of the spectrum can meet. Realist children (and I'll talk in terms of children for the moment) can relate to Harry because he lives in modern times, with modern things they recognise and use themselves (e.g. Playstations), and goes to school, experiencing all the things any ordinary boy would experience: classes, bullies, enemies, good and bad teachers, detentions and so on. There's more than enough reality for them to cope with the magical element in the stories. At the other end, the fantastical, magic element appeals to the children who like to read about fantasy worlds and magic powers and so on. If we accept a simplistic distinction between the "pure realism" and "pure fantasy" ends of the spectrum for the purposes of this message, we can also notice that the two genres have noticeable differences in focus. Realist novels tend to be more character centred. They tend to spend a lot of time exploring the personality of the main characters, their motivations, likes, dislikes, relationships and so on, as well as the minutiae of their everyday life, their school or workplace, their routines, and so on. Being set in the real world, the author also has to come up with plausible tensions and complications for the characters to resolve in plausible, realistic ways. (Think something like Bridget Jones, or Beverley Cleary's work. I can think of lots of examples, but I don't think they'd be well-known enough to use as examples here!). By the end of the book, the reader feels that they know the character involved intimately. By contrast (gad, I feel essay-writing instincts kicking in), pure fantasy tends to be more world centred. The primary creative element in the story is not the nature of the characters themselves, but the nature of the world in which they find themselves. Take the Narnia series, for example, in particular the ones with the Pevensie children. The character exploration in the books is pretty minimal (Peter is brave and noble, Susan is girly and compassionate and then succumbs to adolescence "silliness", Edmund is sly and traitorous then goes humble and steadfast, Lucy is valiant and sweet and loyal), but the creation of the world is lush and detailed. The same goes for Lord of the Rings (she says, hiding from the lynch mobs of Tolkien fans baying for her blood), which is why someone on OT amusingly commented that s/he couldn't imagine having a crush on a Tolkien character, or two Tolkien characters having sex. The characters explore the outer fantasy world much more than their inner world, and hence you don't really get acquainted with them in the same way you get acquainted with Bridget Jones, or the Marlow family in Antonia Forest's books (which are excellent, btw, though sadly out of print). Harry Potter, on the other hand, sits craftily in between. JKR has created a fantasy world, but places it in a familiar and understandable setting (a boarding school, 1990s London, etc.) where much can be taken as read. I've seen Tolkien fans sneering at HP and implying that JKR "hasn't and perhaps can't create a completely independent magical world" (for God's sake, I snorted), and felt like pointing out to them that there's an important distinction between micro and macro creativity there. One reason why there's little character development in a lot of high fantasy is that it's a macro creativity genre: much more page space has to be devoted to describing the world. JKR's world, however, is a micro-creativity world: basically a world encapsulated by the real one, but with ingenious variations: the moving pictures, the self-shuffling cards, the creatures from myth being real, magic powers, etc. More importantly, she devotes roughly equal air time to exploring both her characters' inner *and* outer worlds. We *do* feel acquainted with her characters (as this list flagrantly illustrates!), she creates whole, believable characters with motivations and personalities, who develop and change, yet we also get acquainted with her world and all its eccentricities. So my point thus far is, briefly, this: HP's popularity is partly due to it appealing both to realists, who like exploring people in believable situations they can relate to, and to fantasists, who like magic and excapism and exploring imaginary worlds. Of course, it's not alone in this (I can think of numerous half-way books which also do this), so there must be more to it. The other reasons for its popularity have to do with craft. JKR is very clever at pitching her work: she has believable child protagonists, but doesn't patronise them or her readers. She can be touching without being sentimental, moral without being preachy, and create involved and sophisticated plots without being confusing or overwhelming. The popularity of the series with children is testimony to this: she's not underestimating their intelligence, and they love it! She is also ingenious enough to do multi-level writing. There are countless deeper historical and mythological references and allegories in the books, yet they can be enjoyed and understood without even noticing them. Very impressive. I raise my proverbial hat to her. So there we have my analysis. I don my bullet-proof vest and umbrella and await the torrents of counter-argument... Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 6 09:51:06 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:51:06 -0000 Subject: Calvinism - SB & SS - 3rd task - Playwizard - What's scary - Halloween Message-ID: <9klpaa+j4nq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23695 Milz wrote: >I think it's because the wizarding community was dismayed that Sirius > not only managed to fool James, Lily and Dumbledore, but he was enough > of a sociopath at age 11 to fool the Sorting Hat (something even > Voldemort wasn't able to do). So in your view, the wizarding world does take a completely predestinarian view of the Houses. Couldn't they be dismayed because he went bad *since* 11, despite being in a "good guy" house? I'm thinking of the response you see in the papers when a supposedly stable, happy person commits murder. I don't think anything about Houses has to be supposed, myself. Sirius was shocking because he murdered 13 people, and for those who knew more of the story, even more shocking because he betrayed his best friend. Does surprise that a Gryffindor would behave this way even need to come into it? > However, I would only be > disappointed if good doesn't triumph completely over evil. There's too > much leaving the door open for a sequel these days. The end of PS/SS suggests very strongly to me that while Voldemort may be killed (I'm betting he will), Good is not going to triumph over Evil. There is always evil and good people always have to rise up who will challenge it. "Well, Voldemort's going to try other ways of coming back, isn't he? I mean, he hasn't gone, has he?" "No, Harry, he has not . . . . Nevertheless, Harry, while you may only have delayed his return to power, it will merely take someone else who is prepared to fighte what seems a losing battle next time--and if he is delayed again, and again, why, he may never return to power." This isn't *proof* of my point, because it's only talking about V, but it does support the idea that there's no magic bullet that will do in Evil Itself. And then there's the fact that when Dumbledore defeated one evidently powerful Dark Wizard, the next one was already well on the way to the top of Evil Wizardness. Dumbledore is our window onto the long view. I wrote: > Snape, though, looks to be headed for escape from > predestination, what with his abandoning the DE path "at great > personal risk." That's what makes him the most interesting character > so far to me. Amanda pointed out: > You *can't* escape from predestination. That's what predestination > means. If Snape is acting honorably, it is because he was predestined to > do so. Right. Let's try again. What I meant was Snape looks headed to rescue *us* from the conclusion that JKR's universe is one in which predestination is the law. One can fit any plot whatsoever, just as one can fit any life event, into the predestinarian scheme, because in Calvinism everything that happens fulfills God's will, even the things that seem to be thwarting it, and even actions that appear free are predestined in every detail. But *as readers* we can either have that theme reinforced or we can be told, "no, human choices are real and make a difference." With Snape, JKR seems to be affirming the latter. (Though to further split a theological hair, surely you can be a Calvinist and still believe in free will . . . philosophers call this compatibilism, the belief that free will and determinism are not mutually exclusive.) Marianne wrote: > Asking Sirius to transform back to his human form in > front of Snape sends a message to both of them. It says to > Sirius, "I trust Snape enough to reveal your secret Animagus identity > to him - you can trust him, too." And it says to Snape, "I've given > the vital secret of Sirius' disguise and I trust you will not use it > against him or reveal this to the wrong people." Beautifully said. It also sends them both a similar message about Sirius: to Sirius, "I know you're able to rise above your old hatred to work with Snape"--an affirmation that he can control his impulsiveness, and to Snape: "Sirius is not only not all the things you believe he is, but so trustworthy that we can trust him with your life and our plans." One other thing I've been thinking about this scene, not for the first time: one of the real shockers to Snape is the evident relationship between Harry and Sirius. Whatever the heck Dumbledore knows that makes him trust Sirius, Harry was in on it long before he, Snape, was. Also, Harry, who should hate Sirius more than anyone else does, has clearly undergone a 180-degree turnaround, and not because he's Confunded. I imagine this is part of the reappraising look of the final feast. Catherine asked: > If Harry had refused to take the > cup, and Cedric had been forced into taking it, what would > Crouch/Moody have done to resolve the situation? He must've been watching their interaction, since his job wasn't done until Harry took the Cup. Maybe if Cedric approached the Cup alone he'd have cast some kind of curse that makes it look like someone's had a heart attack? Hmm. He would have had a hard time doing anything that wouldn't result in Harry not taking the Cup, since if Cedric suddenly keeled over Harry would send up red sparks. I like the thought of Crouch watching this scene and sweating over that #%*^@ Potter lousing things up again. Decent people aren't always so easy to manipulate after all. Eric wrote: > Something that occurred to me about wizard photographs---are there > wizard-oriented girlie magazines? Human nature being what it is, the answer has to be yes. They'd be a lot more exciting than the Muggle equivalent--a centerfold who strips! Belinda wrote: > (He's the mayor in Jaws, even as a kid I thought he was > way scarier than the fish.) LOL! So true. One of my favorite movie moments: Richard Dreyfuss ranting, "I think you are not going to deal with this *particular* problem until it swims up and bites you on the ass!" Re: the Pagan origins of Christian and secular holidays: the fact that they celebrate Halloween and Christmas at Hogwarts doesn't indicate that the wizarding world is Pagan any more than Muggle celebrations of those holidays suggest the Muggles in question are Pagan! JKR does put particular emphasis on Halloween--it isn't really the biggest or second-biggest holiday of the year in most British boarding schools, is it? meriting a feast and all that?--but I'm inclined to think that there is no religious statement there, just her joke that of course witches and wizards would make a big holiday of Halloween, the one holiday of the Muggle year where witches are prominently featured. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------------- "And some old witch in Bath had a book that you could =never stop reading=! You just had to wander around with your nose in it, trying to do everything one-handed." --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets --------------------------------------------------------------- From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 6 10:22:38 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 06:22:38 -0400 Subject: Gryffindor - CoS 5 & 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23696 Steve wrote: >I tend to believe too that Harry and Dumbledore are both decendents of >Gryffindor So Harry and the Big D are some kind of distant cousins? >I wonder if Fawkes once belonged to Gryffindor himself Or IS Gryffindor. Ooooh... Susanna asked (great summary, btw!): >Mrs. Weasley certainly is neither stupid nor dull. >How come she doesn't notice the magical transformations the car >has undergone? ("Muggles *do* know more than we give them credit >for, don't they?") Complete ignorance of the Muggle world. Ron was completely surprised that Muggle photos don't move, right? Okay, Molly may know more than that, but it illustrates how wizards can be completely clueless about the differences between Muggle and wizarding life. In the magical world, it's common for a space to be larger on the inside than on the outside, and Molly might well not know that this is quite, shall we say, unusual in a Muggle object. I love this line for this very reason. It's like Ron's poking Dean's posters to get the players to move. >Question 2: I'd like you to express your opinions on the couple >Molly&Arthur. They seem to get on very well, but would you say >the have a relationship of equals? Yes. I can't see any evidence to the contrary. >Question 7: Why does Snape wait for them?( It should be McGonagall >who is Head of Gryffindor. He volunteered because the job gave him so much satisfaction. >Question 14: The general opinion about Colin Creevey isn't too >positive but what about his behaviour during this scene? Standing >up to Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, on his first day at Hogwarts and >furthermore being Muggle- born, indicates that he has a lot of >courage. Yay, a defender of Colin! Yes, the kid definitely belongs in Gryffindor, doesn't he? >And what do you think about his surprising psychological >insight? Is Malfoy really jealous of Harry? No doubt in my mind. Amy Z who's grateful for the explanation of the Chicken Heart joke, since she hasn't heard Bill Cosby in a long time (I finally have a turntable now, though, so the old records are coming back out! Yeeha! "I Started Out as a Child...") --------------------------------------------- "Before we begin our banquet, I would like to say a few words. And here they are: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" --HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From morgan_793 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 11:34:07 2001 From: morgan_793 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?=20?=) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:34:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gryffindor - CoS 5 & 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010806113407.61345.qmail@web13906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23697 --- Amy Z wrote: > Steve wrote: > > >I tend to believe too that Harry and Dumbledore are both decendents > of > >Gryffindor > > So Harry and the Big D are some kind of distant cousins? Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a huge fan of theories that call Harry the heir of Gryffindor, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment (or, in this forum, would it be You-know-who's advocate?). We know from the books that Godric Gryffindor lived approximately one thousand years ago. If he was reasonably prolific with some as yet to be named witch, he could conceivably have thousands - nay, hundreds of thousands - of descendents by now. If this was the case, practically everyone in the wizarding world could probably claim Gryffindor as an ancestor if they tried hard enough. (A comparison from real life would be the incredible number of people marginally related because they're descendents of one of Charles II's mistresses, and that was only 350 years years ago, give or take.) This is the only version of the "heir of Gryffindor" theories I can stomach, because almost any other takes away from Harry's position as a unique character, in my opinion. ===== Respectfully, Morgan "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes." ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From belinda at sawyertech.com Mon Aug 6 12:29:56 2001 From: belinda at sawyertech.com (belinda at sawyertech.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 12:29:56 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <9kl7qd+ev4a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9km2k4+bmgd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23698 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote: > Yes, Peter Pettigrew is the scariest character in the book. The > frightening thing about Peter is that he would still be James, Sirius > and Remus's friend if there's no Voldemort. His lack > of 'intimidation' factor makes him even more scary -- how do you spot > a villain when he's your childhood friend? I find the Pettigrew character something of an anomaly. How is it he had the smarts to figure out how to frame Sirius and the intent to do it in such a huge and destructive way, but then couldn't do any better than to live as a rat for 12 years and return as a snivelling git? Maybe the details of the frame-up had already been worked out with Lord V before he went to the Potters'? Or maybe panic made him bold for a brief moment, since Sirius would have ripped him apart. I've just never been able to marry the mind that cleverly left the severed digit amid all the muggle bodies and the fellow on the floor of the shrieking shack grovelling to Ron, "I was a good rat." Belinda From margdean at erols.com Mon Aug 6 11:59:19 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 07:59:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most? References: <9km2k4+bmgd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6E8697.78E3493E@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23699 belinda at sawyertech.com wrote: > I find the Pettigrew character something of an anomaly. How is it he > had the smarts to figure out how to frame Sirius and the intent to do > it in such a huge and destructive way, but then couldn't do any > better than to live as a rat for 12 years and return as a snivelling > git? Maybe the details of the frame-up had already been worked out > with Lord V before he went to the Potters'? Or maybe panic made him > bold for a brief moment, since Sirius would have ripped him apart. > I've just never been able to marry the mind that cleverly left the > severed digit amid all the muggle bodies and the fellow on the floor > of the shrieking shack grovelling to Ron, "I was a good rat." Perhaps being a rat for twelve years does something to the brain. As far as we've seen, most Animagi don't spend huge chunks of time in their animal form -- the other exception being Sirius in Azkaban, where the alternative would have been worse. And even he changed back to human form sometimes (presumably whenever someone other than the Dementors came into the prison and might see him). Maybe a human intelligence can only be squeezed down into a rat's brain for so long before it starts to . . . leak out. --Margaret Dean From editor at texas.net Mon Aug 6 13:28:27 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 08:28:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Burning questions References: <9kl5sv+hp97@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6E9B7B.11F2B2AD@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23700 Mindy wrote: > Why change the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey? Wouldn't it have been > easier for Moody to just change something else--a book, for > example--and get Harry to touch it at some point? Why all the > elaborate charade with entering Harry into the Triwizard Tournament, > helping him to win, etc.? > > And this question is really bugging me. WHY INDEED did it have to be > in such a roundabout manner, when any little item cold've been turned > into a portkey -- why specifically the cup, and make it so elaborate? > > Can a nyone answer? > > If it was already answered earlier, sorry, I just joined the group, > direct me please to the anser. thanks. There's a brief summary of our many portkey discussions in the FAQs, now up and running (!), at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/devices.html#PORTKEYS Or you can search on "portkey" and crawl back through the archives for the messages themselves. I didn't have time for an extensive search, but message 14095 asked this very question, itself not for the first time, and if you set the message to look at threads, not go by message number, you might get to see some of our earlier discussions in more detail. Welcome! --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Aug 6 13:49:27 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 13:49:27 -0000 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 In-Reply-To: <9kl607+96a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9km797+vi9v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23701 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > > Question 2: I'd like you to express your opinions on the couple > Molly&Arthur. They seem to get on very well, but would you say > the have a relationship of equals?> A relationship of equals? I think the Weasleys are purposefully set up to be a traditional family, where dad works and mom stays home and has dinner waiting for dad upon his return each evening. This is not a setup I'd choose for my own life, but it works well in HP. Other than the fact that Molly doesn't work and does stay home, I think they are very much equals. I do not hear Molly ask her husband for money, nor do I see them ever disrespect each other. Arthur may be more lenient with his children than Molly is, but he respects her decisions and doesn't negate her. I also like, for Harry's sake, that he is able to experience a family with so much love. > > Question 4: (As the question about starting the car/underage magic > has already been sufficiently discussed, I just leave it out. > BUT:) Doesn't this scene tell us something about Ron? He knows > that Harry has already got one warning from the MoM and will face > expulsion if he's caught doing Underage Magic another time. Is Ron selfishly trying to show off? Is he extremely impulsive?> I don't see Ron as selfishly trying to show off. I think Ron occasionally has some not too well thought out ideas and this was one of them. I also think the two of them were pretty excited at the thought they could fly to Hogwarts. I would have jumped in the car after them! > > Question 11: I cannot get rid of the thought that some of the less > important characters, and especially Lockhart, are caricatures of > very real and unpleasant persons JKR met and couldn't resist to > have her little revenge on. What do you think?> It's hard for me to talk about Lockhart without sneering. There are many people like him; people who think they are just super and who refuse to take a look around them to see what is really there. JKR, I believe did base him on a real person, but don't we all know someone like him? > > Question 12: Do you think that Lockhart's way of presenting > himself as The- One- Who- Always- Knows- Best is a result of > stupidity combined with selfishness and conceit, or is it simply a > calculated strategy, trying how far people will let him go > (following Hitler's famous: The bigger the lie, the more people > will believe it)? Is he a Slytherin?> I think his desire to achieve fame has overridden anything else. I do not think he had the intelligence or the far reaching ambitions that Hitler ::shudder:: did. Lockhart knew he had the looks and in this world (I guess in the Wizard world too) looks will get you very far. Just look at Jennifer Lopez. > > Question 14: The general opinion about Colin Creevey isn't too > positive but what about his behaviour during this scene? Standing > up to Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, on his first day at Hogwarts and > furthermore being Muggle- born, indicates that he has a lot of > courage. And what do you think about his surprising psychological > insight? Is Malfoy really jealous of Harry?> Good point about Colin! I suppose Colin's Gryffindor qualities came out right away. Of course Malfoy is jealous of Harry, though. Even Harry should be able to see that. --jenny from ravenclaw***************** From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Aug 6 14:24:17 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 10:24:17 -0400 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 Message-ID: <047BB74C.4EA9307D.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23702 Just picking up a few questions... > Question 2: I'd like you to express your opinions on the couple > Molly&Arthur. They seem to get on very well, but would you say > the have a relationship of equals? > At times Arthur is more like the eighth child in the family. > > Question 3: Did anybody at this point think it had something to do > with Dobby or did you attribute the sealing of the gate to their > being late (it rhymes, I'm thunderstruck with my own talent!)? > not I. > > Question 5: Do you think the weather in general and the > meteorological conditions on 1 September have a symbolical value > in the books? Is it important that, as the books are > getting "darker", the weather on the day of departure is getting > worse with every book? > Good catch! I need to go back and look at the books. > Question 8: What Ron and Harry did, would certainly have been > worth expulsion. Much as we all like the two of them, do you think > it OK McGonagall lets them get away just with detention? And why > do you think she made this decision? > It's clear that Dumbledore does not want them expelled, so even if she has that happy power in theory, McGonagall would be unlikely to go against his wishes. We know of no intermediate punishment worse than detention but less than expulsion. For Harry, of course, the biggest punishment is realising Dumbledore is disappointed, just as later he is rebuked by Lupin. > Question 9: If Hermione had been with them at King's Cross, do you > think the two boys would have convinced her to fly to Hogwarts > with them by car? ( Later on in the book (Polyjuice Potion) we see > that Hermione is as capable of rule- breaking as the other two, > which she has already demonstrated in the Norbert- episode in > PS/SS) > At that age her primary concern could still have been rule breaking. By GOF, she would just be too sensible to let them get away with it. She only breaks rules for a good reason. I think Harry too by GOF might have had more second thoughts, even if Ron wouldn't. > Question 12: Do you think that Lockhart's way of presenting > himself as The- One- Who- Always- Knows- Best is a result of > stupidity combined with selfishness and conceit, or is it simply a > calculated strategy, trying how far people will let him go > (following Hitler's famous: The bigger the lie, the more people > will believe it)? Is he a Slytherin? > Very much a Slytherin. Up there with Jeffrey Archer. All three of JKR's great comic scoundrels, Lockhart, Trelawney, and Rita Skeeter, have in common their attention seeking behaviour which drives them. All want to be looked up to as the fount of wisdom and seen as umportant people in the know. > Question 13: Which part of the plant is used for potion- making? > Do they chop up the leaves or the "roots" (eurgh!!)? And if it's > the leaves, what happens to the "roots"? Sorry, but this has been > tormenting me since I first read the book. > I don't believe the mandrakes are intelligent or in any sense human. In this they resemble trolls, pixies, etc in having behaviour which mimics that of humans. They're just magical plants. For the revival of the petrified, surely the roots are used since these are the animated parts. I believe that real, sorry, Muggle, mandrake roots are used. David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From anitaskeeter at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 15:33:15 2001 From: anitaskeeter at yahoo.com (Laura somethingorother) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:33:15 -0000 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 In-Reply-To: <9kl607+96a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kmdbr+69h6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23703 I saw these and started thinking about them and then realized I could reply. Wow! What a concept! So here is my Incredibly Indulgent Post in which I give My Two Cents on CoS topics and use Lots of Capital Letters. Question 1: Mrs. Weasley certainly is neither stupid nor dull. > How come she doesn't notice the magical transformations the car > has undergone? ("Muggles *do* know more than we give them credit > for, don't they?") I think it likely that someone's already mentioned this, but I think that Molly did know that the car had all sorts of charms and spells on it, and was just going along with things. You know. Why get into a fight/discussion/argument with Arthur in front of all the children and when they were already late for the station? S'pose it shows that Molly can compromise when the situation calls for it. Question 2: I'd like you to express your opinions on the couple > Molly&Arthur. They seem to get on very well, but would you say > the have a relationship of equals? > *shrug* Depends on what your definition of "equals" is. I'd say they're very much equals. Arthur could have been pigeonholed into the Walter Middy type of character by Rowling since Molly "rules the roost" at home, and Molly could have been reduced to the "overbearing wife" role, but their exchanges and compromises make them more than stereotypes. We've seen that Arthur has a bit of fight in him (*snicker* Lucius can vouch for that) and that Molly can let things go...so...yeah. > > Question 3: Did anybody at this point think it had something to do > with Dobby or did you attribute the sealing of the gate to their > being late (it rhymes, I'm thunderstruck with my own talent!)? > To tell the truth, I didn't think of it. I just kept reading. *embarrassed* > > Question 4: (As the question about starting the car/underage magic > has already been sufficiently discussed, I just leave it out. > BUT:) Doesn't this scene tell us something about Ron? He knows > that Harry has already got one warning from the MoM and will face > expulsion if he's caught doing Underage Magic another time. Is Ron > selfishly trying to show off? Is he extremely impulsive? > Ron? Extremely impulsive? Perish the thought! *laugh* Ron is a twelve- year-old boy when all of this happens. And from what I remember of my brother when he was twelve years old, foresight and intelligent analysis of all options before a decision is made is NOT a marked trait of twelve-year-old boys. And I shall not debase my answer by saying "Or ANY year old boys, for that matter," however sorely I am tempted. :D > > Question 5: Do you think the weather in general and the > meteorological conditions on 1 September have a symbolical value > in the books? Is it important that, as the books are > getting "darker", the weather on the day of departure is getting > worse with every book? > Hmm. So by the seventh book, the weather conditions at the station will reach monsoon status? Yikes. Batten down the hatches. > > Question 6: What do you think the car is running on? And why does > the engine die at this point? > The car is running on...octiron. Yes. And of course the engine died because it somehow knew, just as all inanimate objects in novels know, that it was Very Vital to the Plot that its engine malfunction at that moment. Smart car. But of course, it's a Ford, so there you have it. How could it be otherwise? > > Question 7: Why does Snape wait for them?( It should be McGonagall > who is Head of Gryffindor. She does not necessarily have to survey > the Sorting ceremony, as we know from PoA, where she summons Harry > and Hermione into her office, while Prof. Flitwick replaces her at > the Sorting.) > What, are you kidding? I'll bet Snape JUMPED (*tries to imagine Snape jumping and fails*) at the chance to look for his favorite Golden Boy and Second Banana. Snape's got a (hooked) nose for trouble, and I'm sure he would've paid McGonagall to let him wander around Hogwarts instead of watching all those nasty future students desecrate the honor of his House by having the nerve to be Sorted into it. > > Question 8: What Ron and Harry did, would certainly have been > worth expulsion. Much as we all like the two of them, do you think > it OK McGonagall lets them get away just with detention? And why > do you think she made this decision? > Well, what the heck would happen if Harry and Ron got expelled? They'd be very boring books, and no one (*coughSCHOLASTICcough*) would like a boring book. Besides, McGonagall's just a big softy. Bet she loves sappy movies and babies. Just like Snape's really a very honorable and trustworthy guy, and has a heart of gold under all the grease and muck. *snicker* > > Question 9: If Hermione had been with them at King's Cross, do you > think the two boys would have convinced her to fly to Hogwarts > with them by car? ( Later on in the book (Polyjuice Potion) we see > that Hermione is as capable of rule- breaking as the other two, > which she has already demonstrated in the Norbert- episode in > PS/SS) > Of course not. Herm likes rules. And she dislikes flying. > > Question 10: It has never been made really clear how Mr. Weasley > managed to keep his job at the MoM, given that the charge against > him was quite serious (Rita Skeeter's article in GoF only mentions > that he was charged with the illegal possession of an enchanted > car) . How do you think he got himself out? > I think perhaps Arthur is seen as an eccentric but harmless fool at the Ministry, and they keep him around for entertainment. Of course, he'll surprise them all with his heroics in later books. > > Question 11: I cannot get rid of the thought that some of the less > important characters, and especially Lockhart, are caricatures of > very real and unpleasant persons JKR met and couldn't resist to > have her little revenge on. What do you think? > *growl* I think so too. Lockhart, not so much, I actually love Lockhart to pieces. He's hilarious and great and if he hadn't already been cast, I would've loved to see someone like John Lithgow take that role in HP Movie 2. (Is that considered off-topic? Should I put a disclaimer?) Rowling's portrayal of Rita made me a bit mad. Though she resorted to devious means to stay at Hogwarts, while she was there lawfully she was actually a pretty good reporter. She asked leading questions, though, which good reporters would never do (unless the interviewee is just being REALLY quiet and can't think of anything to say and is being generally uncooperative)...but you have to admit, her style of writing had a certain je ne sais quoi. And she DID report the news to her readers. She got stories, and except for that one with Harry and Herm and Krum, they were stories that the public had a right to know (Hagrid's connection with the giants, etc). If only she hadn't put her own opinions in them.... Sure, she was a bad reporter in most respects. But dang. It just makes the whole profession look bad. I think perhaps that was Rowling being bitter. But anyway, enough ranting. > > Question 12: Do you think that Lockhart's way of presenting > himself as The- One- Who- Always- Knows- Best is a result of > stupidity combined with selfishness and conceit, or is it simply a > calculated strategy, trying how far people will let him go > (following Hitler's famous: The bigger the lie, the more people > will believe it)? Is he a Slytherin? > Oh, bite your tongue. Slytherins have a much better grasp of subtlety than Lockhart (with the exceptions of Crabbe and Goyle). Lockhart is just....stupid. > > Question 13: Which part of the plant is used for potion- making? > Do they chop up the leaves or the "roots" (eurgh!!)? And if it's > the leaves, what happens to the "roots"? Sorry, but this has been > tormenting me since I first read the book. > *malicious grin* I think perhaps the roots are the magical parts of the plant. Kinda makes you wonder how lovely little Professor Sprout could be so bloodthirsty, eh? > > Question 14: The general opinion about Colin Creevey isn't too > positive but what about his behaviour during this scene? Standing > up to Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, on his first day at Hogwarts and > furthermore being Muggle- born, indicates that he has a lot of > courage. And what do you think about his surprising psychological > insight? Is Malfoy really jealous of Harry? > Well, of course Malfoy's jealous of Harry. As for Colin...erm...heh...I'll plead a case of severe bias on this issue. Writing "Colin Creepy" completely destroyed any belief I might've had in his innocence. > > Question 15: How come that Hermione who as far as we know her, is > not a person to judge people because of their looks, is so easily > fooled by Lockhart? If not his tactless behaviour to Prof. Sprout, > at least the Pixie incident should have cast some light upon who > and what he really is. Well. She's only HUMAN. And I suppose he was frightfully handsome...besides, she might've just been having fun egging Ron and Harry on as well. If Hermione wanted to, she could derive lots of satisfaction of playing mind games with Ron and Harry. But of course then she'd be in Slytherin.....hmm. From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Mon Aug 6 15:39:42 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:39:42 -0400 Subject: Warlocks, Wizards, and their Wardrobes Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B0535F@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 23704 Gwyneth asked: > A simple question, hoping for a simple answer: > > What's a Warlock? > > What makes a Warlock different from a Wizard? Because Dumbledore is > Head Warlock or something-like-that, is he a Warlock? So can a > Warlock be a Wizard? Are all warlocks wizards? Are all wizards > warlocks? Can a witch be a warlock? What is a warlock? > > Okay, maybe that was more than A question. But I'm interested in > knowing. > This may be too simple an answer, but here's what I think: Warlock = A Person-of-Magic who is of the male gender. Witch = A Person-of-Magic who is of the female gender. Wizard = A Person-of-Magic of unspecified gender _or_ male. Warlocks = A group of People-of-Magic who are _all_ Male. Witches = A group of People-of-Magic who are _all_ Female. Wizards = A group of People-of-Magic who are of unspecified, male, or (more likely) mixed genders. This theory has some basis. First, many systems of magic specify "warlock" to be the term for a male witch, as "witch" has feminine connotations. In this sense, Rowling may be basing the term on a more "classical" or historical doctrine. Second, she taught French for several years, and French has gendered nouns. In any group situation where genders may be mixed, the default usage (IIRC) goes to the male. In other words, in French, one could refer to a group of mages who are all female, and the gender would be female, or a group of mages who are all male, and the gender would be male, but if the group is possibly mixed, it must be referred to as male. Third, she seems to make a distinction between "Witchcraft" and "Wizardry," but there seems to be no difference between these two schools of magic. All witches and wizards learn magic from the same professors, in integrated classes, and apart from the lesson on unicorns, and the lack of girls on Slytherin's Quidditch team, there appears to be no preferential treatment given to one gender over the other. So I humbly submit that the explanation is as simple as "warlock" is a specifically male term, "witch" is a specifically female term, and "wizard" is a more-or-less male term but that can be loosely applied to both genders. Ah, you ask, but then why is there discrepancy between always calling Hermione a witch and sometimes calling all genders wizarding folk? Well, have any of you ever referred to a whole group of your friends, presumably of mixed gender, as "Guys?" As in, "Hey, guys!" or "Come on, you guys?" Just as Muggles do, I believe wizarding folk often use shorthand in referring to themselves or groups of themselves. Thus "wizards" while originally a predominantly male-oriented term has become acceptable as a catch-all. [By extension, I suppose some male-chauvenistic warlocks could refer sardonically to their male companions as "witches," the same way often groups of Muggle men will derisively call their fellows, "Ladies" or "girls."] As for your other question, about wardrobes, that has been the subject of much debate. Personally, I think it has to do with the background of each individual family: how much contact they have or have had with Muggles, how much Muggle blood is in the family, how progressive or conservative the family's views are about interaction, etc. Certainly, I think it possible for a family to exist with almost no contact with the Muggle world and therefore need very little in the way of non-wizard clothing. However, in this modern age, I think it less likely that any children would be unaware of basics like sneakers, jeans, and t-shirts. And if I were a witch with no contact, I'd still take myself down to the local discount store for underwear and socks--way easier than making them myself! Gwendolyn Grace BTW, Gwyneth, Dumbledore is "Supreme Mugwump," which is something entirely different about which we can all debate. I know someone posted the definition of Mugwump and where it derives historically, but can't recall the post. Check the Lexicon. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Aug 6 15:55:22 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 11:55:22 -0400 Subject: Who sent the Valentine? (long) Message-ID: <7C1D3DBF.19C84E3D.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23705 By (rather limited) popular demand: Who sent Harry the Valentine in COS? WARNING: This post is long, detailed and inconclusive! I have (I think) checked the archives fairly comprehensively, and not found anything that looks like a consensus or a knock-out argument. The problem is not simply knowing who sent the Valentine, but knowing what JKRs purpose was in this episode. Is it a red herring, designed to arouse and deflect suspicion? Or a red flag, signalling something important later in the book or in a future book? Or is it something which JKR somehow thought was just *obvious*, and now regards as complete and intends to do no more about? This question is difficult because we know that it is indeed a red herring. In its immediate context, the Valentine is there to give cover for Ginnys embarrassment over seeing that Harry has Riddles diary. The perceptive reader (not me) can note that Ginny sees the diary and is horrified, and might work out a good deal more from that. The rest of us just see a lot of pre-teen awkwardness, and have a good laugh along the way. Without this incident, Ginny would never have seen that Harry had the diary, and we the readers would never have had a chance to penetrate the mystery. This red herring aside, does the Valentine have any further purpose in the story? All we can say is, apparently not up until the end of GOF. What we can try to do is analyse the incident from each of two alternative assumptions, and work out who would have sent it under each assumption. ---Assumption 1: The Incident Is Closed-------- Under this assumption, JKR thought that by the end of COS, it would be obvious to readers who it was that sent the Valentine, and not a matter of any great interest. Either there is a clue she feels is obvious and conclusive, or she meant to put something in towards the end of the book, and forgot. I would say that, under this assumption, the most likely culprits are Fred and George, but we cant entirely rule out Ginny (in which its genuine and just another example of her feelings for Harry) or Draco (in which case its a malicious joke). My feeling is that Ginny is unlikely, because it would just make her vulnerable without actually advancing her cause with Harry, and that Draco doesnt give the impression of being in control in the incident he is reacting to events. Peeves is another distant possibility. Lockhart I dont believe (I interpret the phrase deliver your valentines to refer to those to be sent, not to be received) he has no sense of humour; he wouldnt draw attention to Harry in this way, especially with a reference to his chief claim to fame; even a teacher as crass as Lockhart wouldnt be sending valentines to pupils unless he meant them for real and his intentions were deeply dis! honourable. Fred and George, OTOH, apparently go on to sing it repeatedly, suggesting that they may already have known the words (though the large crowd observing it could have contained people who memorised it, or F & G themselves). JKR couldnt trail the true authorship too early or too obviously without alerting us too strongly to the importance of the Ginny-diary connection. If Assumption 1 is correct, the time to reveal it would be in the chamber itself, via Tom Riddles quotes from Ginnys entries in the diary. The point that F & G tend to take the credit (and blame) for their jokes is a good one, however. ---Assumption 2: Red Flag/Red Herring------------------ Under this assumption, something will come up in a later book which will give the valentine added significance. For us fans, its the one we would like to be true. If it is, almost certainly the valentine is not a joke and somebody out there has strong feelings about Harry. The significance could either be the identity of the sender, or it could be something in the words. If the significance is in the words, I think it must be the pickled toad. Harrys green eyes, and eye colours generally, are frequently emphasised. Have there been any significant mentions of toads? I did wonder if Neville had something to do with it for this reason, but couldnt make anything of it any thoughts? Pickling makes us think of Snapes office any possibilities there? What about the obvious suspects? Ginny is again unlikely, (though she cant be ruled out) as there is no new flag or herring involved we already know about her feelings for Harry. She did send a singing card to Harry in PoA. Hermione I think is also unlikely but not impossible. She has sent a Valentine to Lockhart, and is not about to suddenly declare, even anonymously, a hidden affection for Harry. The style of poetry, if we may call it that, is very unlike the practical Hermione, and the comparison to a toad sounds like somebody from a wizarding background. Cho? Very doubtful she has not yet been introduced, and not clear where it would be pointing. Draco? Again, not sure where it is leading. Riddle? no, he is inactive at this time, he cant do anything without someone using the diary, which, of course, is in Harrys possession. My money, under Assumption 2, would be on Moaning Myrtle. She is developing an interest in Harry, which GOF makes clear is still there. She fantasises about him (see her remarks when they emerge from the Chamber). She is resourceful and persistent, as Olive Hornby found out. Despite usually hanging round the plumbing, she is potentially in good contact with the wider school life via Nearly Headless Nick, who invited her to his party. She has an un-ghostlike resentment of being dead, which may result from the obstacle it presents to further development of a relationship with Harry. If there had been pickled toad in the Polyjuice Potion I would have said it was a clincher but its not mentioned. This post has been a bit of a pompous Percy job (could he have sent the Valentine under the influence of the sinister Prefects Who Gained Power, surely another Malfoy plant?), but I wanted to cover the possibilities and I think it really is an open issue. David, hoping JKR will kill Harry off so he can glide round the U-bend into the sunset... __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From supergirl1024 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 15:55:55 2001 From: supergirl1024 at yahoo.com (Gwyneth) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:55:55 -0000 Subject: Warlocks, Wizards, and their Wardrobes In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B0535F@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <9kmemb+67a6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23706 Thanks a million, this makes enough sense that i can let the subject be for now. ~Gwyneth --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" wrote: > Gwyneth asked: > > A simple question, hoping for a simple answer: > > > > What's a Warlock? > > > > What makes a Warlock different from a Wizard? Because Dumbledore is > > Head Warlock or something-like-that, is he a Warlock? So can a > > Warlock be a Wizard? Are all warlocks wizards? Are all wizards > > warlocks? Can a witch be a warlock? What is a warlock? > > > > Okay, maybe that was more than A question. But I'm interested in > > knowing. > > > > This may be too simple an answer, but here's what I think: > > Warlock = A Person-of-Magic who is of the male gender. > > Witch = A Person-of-Magic who is of the female gender. > > Wizard = A Person-of-Magic of unspecified gender _or_ male. > > Warlocks = A group of People-of-Magic who are _all_ Male. > > Witches = A group of People-of-Magic who are _all_ Female. > > Wizards = A group of People-of-Magic who are of unspecified, male, or (more > likely) mixed genders. > > This theory has some basis. First, many systems of magic specify "warlock" > to be the term for a male witch, as "witch" has feminine connotations. In > this sense, Rowling may be basing the term on a more "classical" or > historical doctrine. Second, she taught French for several years, and French > has gendered nouns. In any group situation where genders may be mixed, the > default usage (IIRC) goes to the male. In other words, in French, one could > refer to a group of mages who are all female, and the gender would be > female, or a group of mages who are all male, and the gender would be male, > but if the group is possibly mixed, it must be referred to as male. Third, > she seems to make a distinction between "Witchcraft" and "Wizardry," but > there seems to be no difference between these two schools of magic. All > witches and wizards learn magic from the same professors, in integrated > classes, and apart from the lesson on unicorns, and the lack of girls on > Slytherin's Quidditch team, there appears to be no preferential treatment > given to one gender over the other. > > So I humbly submit that the explanation is as simple as "warlock" is a > specifically male term, "witch" is a specifically female term, and "wizard" > is a more-or-less male term but that can be loosely applied to both genders. > > > Ah, you ask, but then why is there discrepancy between always calling > Hermione a witch and sometimes calling all genders wizarding folk? Well, > have any of you ever referred to a whole group of your friends, presumably > of mixed gender, as "Guys?" As in, "Hey, guys!" or "Come on, you guys?" > > Just as Muggles do, I believe wizarding folk often use shorthand in > referring to themselves or groups of themselves. Thus "wizards" while > originally a predominantly male-oriented term has become acceptable as a > catch-all. > > [By extension, I suppose some male-chauvenistic warlocks could refer > sardonically to their male companions as "witches," the same way often > groups of Muggle men will derisively call their fellows, "Ladies" or > "girls."] > > > As for your other question, about wardrobes, that has been the subject of > much debate. Personally, I think it has to do with the background of each > individual family: how much contact they have or have had with Muggles, how > much Muggle blood is in the family, how progressive or conservative the > family's views are about interaction, etc. Certainly, I think it possible > for a family to exist with almost no contact with the Muggle world and > therefore need very little in the way of non-wizard clothing. However, in > this modern age, I think it less likely that any children would be unaware > of basics like sneakers, jeans, and t-shirts. And if I were a witch with no > contact, I'd still take myself down to the local discount store for > underwear and socks--way easier than making them myself! > > > Gwendolyn Grace > > BTW, Gwyneth, Dumbledore is "Supreme Mugwump," which is something entirely > different about which we can all debate. I know someone posted the > definition of Mugwump and where it derives historically, but can't recall > the post. Check the Lexicon. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Aug 6 16:20:36 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 12:20:36 -0400 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? Message-ID: <2EA29E10.79C716BA.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23707 "Sofie " wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" >> >> I think it bears discussing here. We are all adults (or close >>enough to it)--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry >>Potter books that creep you out? > Two types of scariness: Scary-at-the-time: the first view of the Dementor, followed by Quirrell/Voldemort drinking Unicorn blood, followed by Pettigrew cutting off his hand. These are nightmarish, otherworldly fears. Scary-on-reflection: the crowd alternately cheering Bagman and yelling at Crouch and the Lestranges in the Pensieve, followed by Crouch Jr happily saying he has been faithful and will be rewarded. These are scarily realistic. David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From mariannayus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 16:41:19 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <9kjngb+bpsf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806164119.19811.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23708 > > Anyway the character that scares me the most. This > is probably going > to be unusual but it has to be Peter Pettigrew. I > know that he's > portrayed as a snivelling (sp?) coward but the fact > that he betrayed > two of his best friends and then set another one up > really chilled > me. I often find human characters more scary than > monsters because > it's very likely that there are people just like > them in the real > world and that you might know them. Anyways that's > my idea. Anyone > else want to continue with this thread? > > Sofie. > I have to agree with you, Sofie. The chances of us coming across LV are pretty slim. But someone like PP: it's very probable: most people are not mad sociopaths, but some would be willing to turn in a critical situation, motivated by fear. Another scary thing about PP is his very anonimity. Everyone knows LV is evil. He looks evil, he does evil. PP looks very ordinary, unnoticeable. And until he betrays Lily and James, no one thinks of him as LV's supporter. At least with LV there is a warning (his known evilness), byt with PP and his disguise, there isn't. Marsha/Marianna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From devilsangel0809 at aol.com Mon Aug 6 17:19:33 2001 From: devilsangel0809 at aol.com (devilsangel0809 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:19:33 -0000 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 In-Reply-To: <9kl607+96a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kmjj5+ar8l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23709 > Question 5: Do you think the weather in general and the > meteorological conditions on 1 September have a symbolical value > in the books? Is it important that, as the books are > getting "darker", the weather on the day of departure is getting > worse with every book? I had never even made this connection until i read this question. The weather almost certainly has some symbolic connection because in each book the weather got worse and worse, and in book 4 is was a full fledged storm. Nice spotting. > Question 7: Why does Snape wait for them?( It should be McGonagall > who is Head of Gryffindor. She does not necessarily have to survey > the Sorting ceremony, as we know from PoA, where she summons Harry > and Hermione into her office, while Prof. Flitwick replaces her at > the Sorting.) Snape was probably waiting for them because he loves getting the two of them punished, and any chance that he sees to get them expelled he takes. A similar question with the same answer would be why does Snape go to Lockhart's office, after the first attack, later in the book, when no students from his house are concerned? He just loves seeing Harry and Ron in trouble and takes any chance to tell dumbledore that the two of them should be expelled. > Question 8: What Ron and Harry did, would certainly have been > worth expulsion. Much as we all like the two of them, do you think > it OK McGonagall lets them get away just with detention? And why > do you think she made this decision? Dumbledore and McGonnagall have taken a special liking to Ron and Harry. I don't think Dumbledore would ever expell Harry and Ron, with the whole Voldie thing he knows how important is is for them to get a full education. > CHAPTER 6- Gilderoy Lockhart > Question 12: Do you think that Lockhart's way of presenting > himself as The- One- Who- Always- Knows- Best is a result of > stupidity combined with selfishness and conceit, or is it simply a > calculated strategy, trying how far people will let him go > (following Hitler's famous: The bigger the lie, the more people > will believe it)? Is he a Slytherin? Lockhart just sees himself as all-knowing. I think he's that way for your first reason. Lockhart isn't that important of a character but I think he loves attention. He'll do anything for it (ex. when Mr. Weasley and Mr. Malfoy were fighting) He's just extremely conceited and a bit dumb. > Question 13: Which part of the plant is used for potion- making? > Do they chop up the leaves or the "roots" (eurgh!!)? And if it's > the leaves, what happens to the "roots"? Sorry, but this has been > tormenting me since I first read the book. Ewwww, how gross would that be to cut up the roots. I sincerely hope it's the leaves! > Question 15: How come that Hermione who as far as we know her, is > not a person to judge people because of their looks, is so easily > fooled by Lockhart? If not his tactless behaviour to Prof. Sprout, > at least the Pixie incident should have cast some light upon who > and what he really is. Hermione probably has noticed how much of a flake (I guess)that Prof. Lockhart is. I think that she just doesn't want to admit that Ron is right. But then a contradiction to that would be the Valentine's day card thing. I dunno, I'm running my mind in circles, it's not healthy for me! ~Laura From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Mon Aug 6 17:26:30 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:26:30 -0000 Subject: Calvinism - SB & SS - 3rd task - Playwizard - What's scary - Halloween In-Reply-To: <9klpaa+j4nq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kmk06+ckrd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23710 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Milz wrote: > > >I think it's because the wizarding community was dismayed that Sirius > > not only managed to fool James, Lily and Dumbledore, but he was > enough > > of a sociopath at age 11 to fool the Sorting Hat (something even > > Voldemort wasn't able to do). > > So in your view, the wizarding world does take a completely > predestinarian view of the Houses. Couldn't they be dismayed because > he went bad *since* 11, despite being in a "good guy" house? I'm > thinking of the response you see in the papers when a supposedly > stable, happy person commits murder. > I think the wizarding world uses the House System as a way to categorize individuals. Hagrid's comments that all dark wizards came from Slytherin. The various disparaging comments about Hufflepuffs. The Sorting Hat looks into a person and places that person into the house that most closely matches his characteristics. Harry is an exception because he persuaded the Sorting Hat to do otherwise. But the Sorting Hat picked up on Harry's Slytherin-like qualities first. In the 'real' world, I've seen people categorize an individual's abilities according to which university they attended. Ivy League grads are held in higher esteem than someone from Spongecake University, even if the Spongecake grad had higher scores and job performance ratings than the Ivy Leaguer. > I don't think anything about Houses has to be supposed, myself. > Sirius was shocking because he murdered 13 people, and for those who > knew more of the story, even more shocking because he betrayed his > best friend. Does surprise that a Gryffindor would behave this way > even need to come into it? > The murder of 13 people is horrific, but that doesn't explain why Sirius was treated differently. He was sent to Azkaban without the benefit of a trial, while known Death Eaters were given trials. (Except for Rozier, IIRC, who killed himself rather than being taken in alive.) Furthermore, Sirius' betrayal of his best friend is horrible, but what about the other Death Eaters? I assume they, too, betrayed friends and family. For some reason, Sirius was held to a different standard than the real Death Eaters. I think it's because the wizarding community uses the House System as a way to determine individual character and to anticipate/stereotype individual behavior. A Ravenclaw is in Ravenclaw because he is intelligent. A Gryffindor is in Gryffindor because he is brave. So a cowardly Gryffindor or a dumb Ravenclaw is unknown (or uncommon). Presumably the House System has been a part of the British wizarding community since the founding of Hogwarts when the founders sorted the students themselves. Dumbledore's comments to Harry in CoS and to Fudge in GoF about it's what a person chooses to do with their life intimates to me that Dumbledore's philosophy is contrary to popular wizarding thought. > > However, I would only be > > disappointed if good doesn't triumph completely over evil. There's > too > > much leaving the door open for a sequel these days. > > The end of PS/SS suggests very strongly to me that while Voldemort may > be killed (I'm betting he will), Good is not going to triumph over > Evil. There is always evil and good people always have to rise up who > will challenge it. > That's true that evil exists and good people must battle it. But for the sake of the Potter books, I hope evil (Voldemort and the Death Eater cult) will be terminated. The appeal of fairy tales and some folk tales to me is that they do "live happily ever after". I hope the Potterverse will end like that. I find the touch of cynicism that "they lived happily ever after...for now" to be over-used and tiresome for a 'fantasy' story. Milz (who thinks Harry IS predestined because J.K. Rowling has mapped out the remaining books. ) From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 18:03:00 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <9kc9kg+81fp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806180300.68688.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23711 --- meboriqua at aol.com wrote: > I see Draco as someone who >desperately needs to break away from >Mommy and Daddy (especially Daddy). >[snip] He has yet to question his >parents' views. When I first started reading the books, I thought Draco was just repeating what he heard his parents say. I figured when hell finally broke loose and he saw it wasn't a game or story -- that real people could be and would be hurt, maybe even killed -- he would re-think his position. I don't think that way any more: "Too late now, Potter!... Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well -- second -- Diggory was f--" GOF, last chapter. This is not the speech of someone just playing at it. It was cruel and shows no regret or fear. Draco Malfoy is, in my opinion, exactly what he will always be: an insensitive, spoiled, cruel-hearted, pure-blooded snob. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 18:18:55 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What makes Harry special? (was Chicken Meat) In-Reply-To: <9kcunr+1c4d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806181855.56399.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23712 --- caliburncy at yahoo.com wrote: >I personally do not believe Harry is >special in the third way, which is one >of two things: the Super Harry theory >or the Heir of Gryffindor theory >[snip] They both imply in one way or >another that Harry is different from >other wizards in some genetic way. >[snip] I only hope that it doesn't go >this route, because to me it violates >Dumblebore's notion that blood is not >important. In my opinion, Harry >should not be able to win because he >is genetically superior either via the >Super Harry/Mage Factor way or by >having some of Godric Gryffindor's >DNA. How is needing to be a Gryffindor >descendant or needing to have a Mage >Factor any different in order to be >more powerful than Voldemort than the >kind of Pure-blood fanatacism >Slytherin embraced? I don't think that Harry being a descendent of Gryffindor, should it turn out to be so, is what will when the battle with Voldemort. I think it will simply **identify** him to those who heard the prophecy(1) as the one who will do it. (1)We know Trelawney made one correct predicition. I believe that it was that Harry would be Voldemort's downfall. The predicition may not have identified Harry by name. Perhaps it said something like "The last know descendant of Gryfffindor will banish the last known descendant of Slytherin." A quick genealogical search brought up Harry's name. The blood of Gryffindor in his veins wasn't what made him defeat Voldemort the first time; his mother's love did that. It just told those interested where to look for him. The prediction could just have easily said "The scar-headed boy with glasses will defeat Voldemort." Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From catdavey at aol.com Mon Aug 6 18:26:04 2001 From: catdavey at aol.com (Catriona) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 18:26:04 -0000 Subject: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <20010806180300.68688.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kmnft+2o6u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23713 Kelly Hurt wrote: > position. I don't think that way any more: > > "Too late now, Potter!... Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well - - second -- Diggory was f--" GOF, last chapter. > > This is not the speech of someone just playing at it. It was cruel and > shows no regret or fear. Draco Malfoy is, in my opinion, exactly what > he will always be: an insensitive, spoiled, cruel-hearted, > pure-blooded snob. > I second the motion though I have never believed that he should or might reform. I generally resent attempts to make the character more palatable by predicting future regrets for present behaviour. I like Draco as he stands, he is nasty but appealingly nasty. Catriona/Incitata From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 18:23:33 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape & LMalfoy In-Reply-To: <9kfbbd+disi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806182333.37368.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23714 --- rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote: >If Snape was a Deatheater, he >certainly must have rubbed shoulders >with the elder Malfoy. Not necessarily. The DEs always wore masks, and Karkarof said each one only knew a few others. Snape & L Malfoy might never have been on the same team. Kelly the Yarn Junkie (who thinks Voldemort used real names that night because he was angry that the DEs had denied him all those years) ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 18:30:25 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tuesdays In-Reply-To: <9khtnp+ou02@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806183025.58697.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23715 --- joym999 at aol.com wrote: >Actually, I havent mentioned this >because it is a little obsessive, even >for me, but I HAVE noticed that a >disproportionate number of important >events in the HP books seem to happen >on Tuesdays I believe that her use of Tuesdays is just one more of JKR's references to Jane Austen. Miss Austen had a habit of having important events in her works occur on Tuesdays. Two other well-known references: Dumbledore's eyes are described as "light, bright and sparkling" which is exactly how Jane Austen described _Pride and Prejudice_ in a letter to her sister. Mrs. Norris is the name of an extremely unlikable character in Jane Austen's _Mansfield Park_. There are more, I think, but I can't remember any at the moment. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 18:36:08 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Photos In-Reply-To: <9kjjs9+1ldr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806183608.50938.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23716 --- Sofie wrote: > But didn't Percy's girlfriend's photo >hide under the frame when she got >spots on her nose, this suggests that >photos change as their subject does. Spots would appear on *any* photo if tea was dropped on it and not wiped off in time. The spots on her nose were caused by the tea being dropped on the place in the photo where her nose was, not because Penelope devoloped them in 'real life'. The photo-Penny hid because of vanity/embarassment. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk Mon Aug 6 18:39:52 2001 From: mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 19:39:52 +0100 Subject: First Post - Veela's Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010806193229.009fb0e0@pop.freeserve.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23717 I was wondering if anyone had any theory's/ideas about what veela's are? The only thing that we know from the books are that they are female and they have a powerful influence on the male's they are around. Even Fleur who is part veela has the same effect on Ron. Any theories on how this happens..? Martin Hooper AIM: martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 http://www.crosswinds.net/~martinjh99/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 18:50:23 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 In-Reply-To: <9kl607+96a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806185023.43627.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23718 --- pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it wrote: >Snape beckons Harry and Ron into his >office, where he confronts them with >the latest edition of the Daily >Prophet: Actually, it was the Evening Prophet, which is only mentioned this once. >Question 8: What Ron and Harry did, >would certainly have been worth >expulsion. Why? Personally, I've never seen it as such. See below. >Much as we all like the two of them, >do you think it OK McGonagall lets >them get away just with detention? And >why do you think she made this >decision? If she had set them detentions for damaging the Whomping Willow, I would say she had the right. If she had set them detentions for arriving late with no permission/adult excuse, I would say she had the right. But, IMO, McGonagall and the school had no right to punish Ron and Harry for taking the car. The car was not school property. After all, in the real world, if a 15-year-old boy gets caught driving to school without a license, the school doesn't punish him. His parents and the legal system do. The school could refuse to let him make up the time missed or give him detention for arriving to late, but that's it. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Mon Aug 6 18:55:52 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 19:55:52 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 References: <20010806185023.43627.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014a01c11ea9$6ae0aca0$d94c063e@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 23719 But, IMO, McGonagall and the school had no right to punish Ron > and Harry for taking the car. The car was not school property. > > After all, in the real world, if a 15-year-old boy gets caught driving > to school without a license, the school doesn't punish him. His > parents and the legal system do. The school could refuse to let him > make up the time missed or give him detention for arriving to late, but > that's it. > I beg to differ here. In the UK public school system, a pupil is most likely to be expelled if they do something to embarrass the school. Michelle From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 19:03:44 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 19:03:44 -0000 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 In-Reply-To: <9kmjj5+ar8l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kmpmg+j3e4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23720 >Question 7: Why does Snape wait for them?( It should be >McGonagall who is Head of Gryffindor. She does not necessarily have >to survey the Sorting ceremony, as we know from PoA, where she >summons Harry and Hermione into her office, while Prof. Flitwick >replaces her at the Sorting.) Until the Sorting Ceremony starts, she's in charge of the first years and would be sticking with them. Since no one knows where Ron and Harry are, it makes sense for another teacher to wander the grounds looking for them. It's Snape, of course, because he probably mowed down four other teachers in his race to the main door so he could be the one who found the culprits. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 19:10:38 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 19:10:38 -0000 Subject: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <9kmnft+2o6u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kmq3e+p0cm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23721 >> Kelly Hurt wrote: >> Draco Malfoy is, in my opinion, exactly >> what he will always be: an insensitive, spoiled, cruel-hearted, >> pure-blooded snob. > I second the motion though I have never believed that he should or > might reform. I generally resent attempts to make the character > more palatable by predicting future regrets for present behaviour. > I like Draco as he stands, he is nasty but appealingly nasty. > Catriona/Incitata I third the motion. Draco serves an important purpose in the canon: he offers a total contrast to Harry who's a nice kid who's had to struggle all his life. Draco is a nasty kid who's had it all with ice cream on top and yet is a little fiend. No redemption on the cards for Draco. From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 19:10:49 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (Alfredo Ramirez) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] First Post - Veela's In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010806193229.009fb0e0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <20010806191049.67040.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23722 I see Veelas as land-based mermaids, sort of. They remind me of the 'Siren' legends Sailors talk about. Entrancing men to their doom, etc. As for the actual mechanics of the effect, I'd expect it would be pheromone-based, as it is in many mammals. JB __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mariannayus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 19:19:00 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Calvinism - SB & SS - 3rd task - Playwizard - What's scary - Halloween In-Reply-To: <9kmk06+ckrd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010806191900.86824.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23723 > > The murder of 13 people is horrific, but that > doesn't explain why > Sirius was treated differently. He was sent to > Azkaban without the > benefit of a trial, while known Death Eaters were > given trials. > (Except for Rozier, IIRC, who killed himself rather > than being taken > in alive.) Furthermore, Sirius' betrayal of his best > friend is > horrible, but what about the other Death Eaters? I > assume they, too, > betrayed friends and family. For some reason, Sirius > was held to a > different standard than the real Death Eaters. I > think it's because > the wizarding community uses the House System as a > way to determine > individual character and to anticipate/stereotype > individual behavior. > A Ravenclaw is in Ravenclaw because he is > intelligent. A Gryffindor is > in Gryffindor because he is brave. So a cowardly > Gryffindor or a dumb > Ravenclaw is unknown (or uncommon). But even assuming house characteristics are fixed in the popular conscious, if Sirius was a Gryffindor or Ravenclaw, or even Hufflepuff, his becoming LV's right hand man, and betraying Potters, PP, and blowing up a street are not signs that he isn't true to his house. If only characterisitcs of bravery, cleverness, loyalty are imprinted, his actions are not inconsistent with any of those. I think we are making a mental leap assuming more (Gryff are good, Rave are good, Huff are good). GRYFFINDOR: Brave does not mean noble. One can be a horrible person and still be brave. A suicide bomber, a storm trooper, a gangster are warped, horrible but are probably brave. Sirius' being a disloyal believer in evil would have nothing to do with his bravery. RAVENCLAW: The same goes for cleverness/learning. It is a Ravenclaw characteristic, but it doesn't mean that a Ravenclaw has to be good. Once again, Sirius can be a perfect Ravenclaw and still murder 13 people and betray L&J. Sirius is percieved as a clever, bright wizard (killing 13 people with one curse is certainly a complicated trick). And LV would certainly want an intelligent, knowelegeable second in command. LV can easily bribe a Ravenclaw with promises of studies unknown in a legitimate wizard world. Tom Riddle himself is rather Ravenclaw-like in one respect: studied too much of the dark arts till they absorbed him. Now, TR did it because of domination/immortality, but I can see a purely intellectual mind going down the same slipperly slope (IMO Quirrell was in Ravenclaw). One can be clever, love learning and be horrible. HUFFLEPUFF: Hufflepuffs are loyal, but nowhere it is said that they have to be loyal toa good ideal. Once again, SS were loyal to Hitler, but hopefully no one on this list would think that they were loyal to a good ideal. The Lestranges were undoubtedly loyal: they went to Azkaban for their master, tried to bring him back. The definition of loyalty. Yet, they are loyal to ultimate evil in wizard world, and tortured to achieve their master's ressurection. No one's loyalty necessarily stays with one person/group through their entire life. Sirius could have switched his loyalties (for whatever reasons) and became loyal to V. Loyalty does not mean openness: he did not have to be open to L&J. So he could switch loyalty and conceal it from L&J and do his utmost to destroy them out of loyalty to V, and thus be a good Hufflepuff. Assuming he really was LV's right hand man, his behavior to LV was very loyal. All four houses characterisitcs are neutral. we tend to assume that Gryffs are good because it's HP house, and so are Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff because HP and Co seem to like them. But as above shows, this is not necessarily true. As to why Sirius did not get a trial: that very well might have been the very first case after LV's fall (committed immediately after LV's fall) and the trial system not perfected yet. Later caught DVs were tried properly (and maybe that's why no one thought to check SB for black mark, since there were no other DE trials and so the MoM didn't know about it yet, but only learned during trials) (during the struggle the Aurors had shoot-to-kill permission). Marsha/Marianna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Aug 6 19:27:25 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 19:27:25 -0000 Subject: Rita's Scoop (was Summary ch. 5 & 6) In-Reply-To: <9kmdbr+69h6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kmr2t+rr3c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23724 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Laura somethingorother" wrote: but you have to admit, her style of writing had a certain je ne sais quoi. And she DID report the news to > her readers. She got stories, and except for that one with Harry and > Herm and Krum, they were stories that the public had a right to know > (Hagrid's connection with the giants, etc). If only she hadn't put > her own opinions in them....> Even though I enjoyed your responses to the chapter questions, this one just jumped out at me and I had to respond. Why would Hagrid's status as a half giant be something the public has a right to know? It's not a contagious disease that might be spread. My students don't have to know that I am Jewish; it is something I choose to talk about with them. I wouldn't just call Rita's methods of news gathering devious, I would say that she has no regard for the law or for other people in general. She thinks nothing of humiliating people - and for falsehoods! The first article she wrote that we got wind of was a lie: the rumor that several bodies were found at the QWC. She is a journalist for the wrong reasons. I find her writing to be more damaging than either fact reporting or entertaining. Rita Skeeter would have been one of those disgusting photographers snapping pictures of a dying Princess Diana in her crashed car. Nope, Rita Skeeter gets a big thumbs down from me. --jenny from ravenclaw, who hates the paparazzi (sp?) ******************************************************** From editor at texas.net Mon Aug 6 19:31:48 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 14:31:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] First Post - Veela's References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010806193229.009fb0e0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <3B6EF0A3.C8CA6042@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23725 Martin Hooper wrote: > I was wondering if anyone had any theory's/ideas about what veela's > are? I believe they are based on the Scandinavian vila, with spelling changed so we'd know how to say it right. I know vanishingly little about vilas, though (I got that tidbit from the Lexicon), so I'd be off and searching for "folklore" and "vila" on the net, myself. > The only thing that we know from the books are that they are female > and they have a powerful influence on the male's they are around. > Even Fleur who is part veela has the same effect on Ron. Any theories > on how this happens..? How old are you, dear...? Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously, the veela are probably up there with sirens and other enticing female-ish sorts of things. They have magically enhanced sex appeal. I imagine they had a stronger effect on Harry and Ron because they haven't the experience dealing with hormones that the older Arthur has, but then again, the veela *did* get to the referee....but basically, they exert a strong appeal to a very basic instinct. Just for grinsies, can anyone think of a creature that waylays women by the same device? An incubus isn't exactly what I'm after, and it's all I can think of. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From old_wych at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 19:42:07 2001 From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] First Post - Veela's In-Reply-To: <3B6EF0A3.C8CA6042@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010806194207.12237.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23726 --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > Just for grinsies, can anyone think of a creature > that waylays women by > the same device? An incubus isn't exactly what I'm > after, and it's all I > can think of. > Gilderoy Lockhart? Extremely sorry for the one-liner, but I couldn't resist. Besides, it ties in wonderfully well with this week's chapter discussions. Anne (returning to lurkdom) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From editor at texas.net Mon Aug 6 19:42:45 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 14:42:45 -0500 Subject: Ranting about the hat (was one of those lots of subject things) References: <9kmk06+ckrd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6EF334.B8631BA9@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23727 Milz wrote: > The Sorting Hat looks into a person and places that person into the > house that most closely matches his characteristics. Harry is an > exception because he persuaded the Sorting Hat to do otherwise. But > the Sorting Hat picked up on Harry's Slytherin-like qualities first. Milz, you, with just about everyone else, is standing there with a hook in your mouth. I may be wrong, but it gets me every time how people toss around as a given this notion that the sorting hat was all set to put Harry in Slytherin. Here's what it said: "Hmmm. Difficult. Very difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent, oh my goodness yes --- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting . . . So where shall I put you?" Here's when Harry started thinking Not Slytherin, and the hat simply said that Harry could be great and Slytherin will help on the way to greatness. Nowhere in that do I get any sort of feeling that the hat had wanted him in Slytherin. Harry's the one who brought Slytherin up. The hat mentioned his courage and his mind before it mentioned his thirst to prove himself. The very fact that the hat *said* he was difficult meant that it hadn't decided yet. I think this damn-near-canon notion that the hat wanted to put him in Slytherin and Harry talked it out of it is incorrect, right up there with Snape wanting the DADA job. We've been led to believe it, rather carefully, but when you go looking for hard facts to support it, they're not there. This is one of the things JKR wants us to believe. hmmmm. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 19:57:31 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 19:57:31 -0000 Subject: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <9kmq3e+p0cm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kmsrb+mbu2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23728 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mgrantwich at y... wrote: > >> Kelly Hurt wrote: > >> Draco Malfoy is, in my opinion, exactly > >> what he will always be: an insensitive, spoiled, cruel-hearted, > >> pure-blooded snob. > > > I second the motion though I have never believed that he should or > > might reform. I generally resent attempts to make the character > > more palatable by predicting future regrets for present behaviour. > > I like Draco as he stands, he is nasty but appealingly nasty. > > Catriona/Incitata > > I third the motion. Draco serves an important purpose in the canon: > he offers a total contrast to Harry who's a nice kid who's had to > struggle all his life. Draco is a nasty kid who's had it all with > ice cream on top and yet is a little fiend. No redemption on the > cards for Draco. Actually I think he might reform sorta. Kinda like Snape. He is a mean, spoiled brat but he might pull back a little. Otherwise it would be too much of a plot device. If I had to vote for a true reform, I would nominate Dudley. I couldn't help but notice the change that came over Dudley when Harry was getting all those letters. He was actually treating Harry as an equal. Dudley seems to be more aware of what's really happening than his parents. Marcus From relliott at jvlnet.com Mon Aug 6 19:58:28 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:58:28 -0500 Subject: Subject: Draco's Redemption References: <997123835.2080.80274.l7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001501c11eb2$2a0a13c0$d8b191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23729 I see Draco as someone who >desperately needs to break away from >Mommy and Daddy (especially Daddy). >[snip] He has yet to question his >parents' views. When I first started reading the books, I thought Draco was just repeating what he heard his parents say. I figured when hell finally broke loose and he saw it wasn't a game or story -- that real people could be and would be hurt, maybe even killed -- he would re-think his position. I don't think that way any more: "Too late now, Potter!... Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well -- second -- Diggory was f--" GOF, last chapter. This is not the speech of someone just playing at it. It was cruel and shows no regret or fear. Draco Malfoy is, in my opinion, exactly what he will always be: an insensitive, spoiled, cruel-hearted, pure-blooded snob. Let's remember that Draco is still a child or teenager. He has only completed his first year of high school. Which makes him 14 or 15. As I current teacher, I have noticed that students still repeat their parents expressions and views unitl they can think on their own and that they don't start vocalizing their views until well into high school if not college. Draco has not know anything but the dark side for his entire life. He has only had 4 years away from his parents to deal with different cultures, diversity, and racism. Yes, the quote in the last chapter in GoF is terrible but, it does not mean we should throw in the towel and judge him forever. Take it for what it is worth. A teenager trying to provoke others. At the current time he is a an insensitive, spoiled, cruel-hearted,pure-blooded snob. But that may not be what he is forever. People can grow and change and deserve chances. Let's let time tell. How many individuals have been given chances or second chances: Lupin, Hagrid, Snape, Black. "Dumbledore was the one who stuck up for me after Dad went. Got me the gamekeeper job...trusts people, he does. Gives 'em second chances... tha's what sets him apar' from other Heads, see..... Knows people can turn out OK even if their families weren' ... well.. all tha' respectable. But some don't understand that. There's some who'd always hold it against yeh." - Hagrid (GoF24.) From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Aug 6 20:04:07 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:04:07 -0000 Subject: First Post - Veela's In-Reply-To: <3B6EF0A3.C8CA6042@texas.net> Message-ID: <9kmt7n+gari@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23730 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > Just for grinsies, can anyone think of a creature that waylays women by the same device? An incubus isn't exactly what I'm after, and it's all I can think of.> Antonio Banderas? Just kidding. Haven't vampires been known to turn on the charm? That ought to get the Snape is a Vampire theorists going! --jenny from ravenclaw******************************************** From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 20:07:43 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:07:43 -0000 Subject: Ranting about the hat (was one of those lots of subject things) In-Reply-To: <3B6EF334.B8631BA9@texas.net> Message-ID: <9kmtef+2qh1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23731 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Milz wrote: > > > The Sorting Hat looks into a person and places that person into the > > house that most closely matches his characteristics. Harry is an > > exception because he persuaded the Sorting Hat to do otherwise. But > > the Sorting Hat picked up on Harry's Slytherin-like qualities first. > > Milz, you, with just about everyone else, is standing there with a hook > in your mouth. I may be wrong, but it gets me every time how people toss > around as a given this notion that the sorting hat was all set to put > Harry in Slytherin. > --Amanda You are correct, Madam. However, please be careful to note make the leap from Headed-for-Slytherin, to Never-considered-for-Slytherin. Remember what the hat said in CoS. "I stand by what I said before. You *would* have done well in Slytherin." I am not saying you have, but just a caution. I agree that the hat was on the verge of sending him to Slytherin, but it hadn't necessarily ruled it out either. Marcus From relliott at jvlnet.com Mon Aug 6 20:07:24 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:07:24 -0500 Subject: Trelawney' Prediction References: <997123835.2080.80274.l7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001a01c11eb3$69220120$d8b191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23732 I would love to hear your views about what Sybill Trelawney's first prediction was. My theory is: (something to the effect) "A child has been born and he will take over for the greatest wizard in the universe" Lord Voldemort hearing this immediately thought of himself (arrogant as he is) needed to take action and get rid of the child. But many have stated that Lord Voldemort is not the most powerful wizard, Dumbledore is. Dumbledore just chooses not to use his powers. But, my theory is even somewhat close... Dumbledore will not be a living character forever. He may be making the ultimate sacrifice ;( Any thoughts??? From relliott at jvlnet.com Mon Aug 6 20:20:31 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:20:31 -0500 Subject: Subject: Re: Re: What HP Character Scares You Most? Message-ID: <002501c11eb5$3e359f60$d8b191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23733 > Anyway the character that scares me the most. This > is probably going > to be unusual but it has to be Peter Pettigrew. I > know that he's > portrayed as a snivelling (sp?) coward but the fact > that he betrayed > two of his best friends and then set another one up > really chilled > me. I often find human characters more scary than > monsters because > it's very likely that there are people just like > them in the real > world and that you might know them. I completely agree with your view. Individuals who set up and betray their own friends are scary. They are worse than scary! The part that make me not so apprehensive of Wormtail, in particular, is a conversation between Harry and Dumbledore. "When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a bond between them" - Dumbledore "I don't want a bond with Pettigrew. He betrayed my parents!" - Harry "This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable. But trust me ... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life." - Dumbledore Harry could not imagine when that would be. Dumbledore looked as though he knew what Harry was thinking. It is almost as JKR is foreshadowing that Wormtail is scum but, he will do something to save Harry's life. Maybe I am a wishful thinker. But then again, this is a series for children. ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Aug 6 20:20:28 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:20:28 -0000 Subject: Subject: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <001501c11eb2$2a0a13c0$d8b191d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <9kmu6c+es7r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23734 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachelle Elliott" wrote: At the current time he is a an insensitive, spoiled, > cruel-hearted,pure-blooded snob. But that may not be what he is forever. People can grow and change and deserve chances. Let's let time tell. How many individuals have been given chances or second chances: Lupin, Hagrid, Snape, Black.> Well said, Rachelle! I think everyone here has made great points about Draco. In fact, I am not on either side of the issue, even though it may appear that I believe Draco will be redeemed. I just think that Draco echoes what he has heard all of his life. If a child is brought up in a house filled with hate, the child will preach hate until he is shown otherwise. I know I've mentioned this before, but whenever the subject of Draco's redemption comes up, I am always reminded of how fast he ran away from the figure drinking the unicorn's blood in SS. Harry did not. Draco has yet to be faced with tragedy and has yet to be the target of hate (but he sure was wimpy when he saw a scary sight), so why would he think nicer things about Cedric? I don't think Crabbe and Goyle mean more to Draco than Cedric did. Draco could very well go on to become a super duper DE, or he may have a change of heart, much like Snape. I'd just like to see Draco faced with some personal difficulties; then he may rethink some of the things he has said and done. Just my two sickles. --jenny from ravenclaw *************************** From editor at texas.net Mon Aug 6 20:40:25 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:40:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ranting about the hat (was one of those lots of subject things) References: <9kmtef+2qh1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6F00B9.2C0B4FB4@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23735 prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > I agree that the hat was on the verge of sending him to Slytherin, but > it hadn't necessarily ruled it out either. I don't think the hat was on the verge of sending him to Slytherin at all. I don't think the balance had tipped at all yet. I think the only reason the hat gave Harry any extra info was that Harry initiated the whole Not Slytherin dialogue. The hat gave reasons why Slytherin would have worked. But it never said it was aiming him there; it just gave the impression that Slytherin would have been an option. I'm not saying that the hat might not ultimately have put him there, had he kept his mental mouth shut; I'm just saying that I don't think it was anywhere near decided before the dialogue. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 6 20:40:52 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:40:52 -0000 Subject: First Post - Veela's In-Reply-To: <9kmt7n+gari@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kmvck+h978@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23736 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > > > > Just for grinsies, can anyone think of a creature that waylays women > by the same device? An incubus isn't exactly what I'm after, and it's > all I can think of.> > > Antonio Banderas? > > Just kidding. Haven't vampires been known to turn on the charm? That > ought to get the Snape is a Vampire theorists going! There is an Irish fairy called the Love-talker (Gaelic Gean-cannah or Ganconer.) According to Katherine Briggs' indispensable guide, An Encyclopedia of Fairies, this fellow appears in lonesome valleys, smokes a short clay pipe, and is in the habit of making love to country maidens and then slipping away, leaving them to pine to death. There's a poem about him by Ethna Carbery at http://www.bartleby.com/250/68.html And just to bring this back on topic, some of us find Snape's ability to hold a class spellbound an argument for the pro-vampire cause, notwithstanding that McGonagall has that ability also. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 6 20:46:30 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:46:30 -0000 Subject: HP and The Ten Commandments #1 Message-ID: <9kmvn6+3d3v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23737 I thought that it would be fun to look at Potter books in terms of the Ten Commandments. My plan is to do a series of essay posts, like Peg Kerr's series on the vices and virtues. My intention is not to soapbox for the commandments, but simply to investigate how these principles, or my interpretation of them, are reflected in the Potterverse. I write from the perspective of a Reform Jew, but my interpretations are my own. I respect the right of other list members to hold vastly different opinions and I hope you will accord that right to me. I intend no disrespect to anyone's beliefs. I would like to thank Ebony, for pushing me to post this, and the Moderators, especially John, Amanda, Amy and Neil, for their advice and encouragement. Responsibility for the content is strictly mine. Feel free to email me at foxmoth @ qnet. com (don't forget to delete the spaces) with your comments or post them to the list. There are several traditional methods of numbering the verses and dividing the commandments into ten. The translation I will use is from the Jewish Publication Society. 1) I the Lord am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, the house of bondage. The first commandment contrasts a legitimate authority -God's - with the false authority of Pharaoh and tells us how they are to be distinguished. Legitimate authority sets us free, false authority keeps us enslaved. In Rowling's world we have met no character who personifies the forces of good as thoroughly as Voldemort personifies evil. But we can distinguish between those, like Dumbledore, who use their power to free others, and those who wish to dominate and enslave. Harry's Egypt is, of course, the Dursleys. Harry's rescue shares many elements with the story of Exodus. Ignorant of his heritage and his destiny, Harry suffers in captivity. Like Pharaoh, the Dursleys' fear motivates them to keep their unwilling charge as downtrodden as possible. We are not told why Harry's rightful protectors allowed this situation to develop, but after a manifestation involving a serpent, and with the reluctant consent of his captors, Harry goes free. Hagrid brings him out with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, crossing the sea amid signs and wonders. Fortunately for first-born Dudley and the rest of the Dursleys, Rowling doesn't carry the parallel too far. But slaves need only answer to their masters. Those who are free must accept rules and responsibilities for themselves. Like the Children of Israel, the wizarding folk don't always want to obey. Human justice is meted out in the form of detentions and points lost, in fines from the MoM and sojourns in Azkaban. More often, as in the Book of Exodus, providential or poetic justice moves in when human resolve and human justice fail. This technique enables Rowling to redress the moral balance while entertaining us with the Orwellian spectacle of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, which seems to be more concerned with erasing the evidence of magical crimes than with uncovering it. Of course real law enforcement agencies aren't like that . As in the Bible, the reader should not assume that an individual has gotten away with something simply because he or she has eluded discovery. In Rowling's world, as in many folktales, magical objects improperly obtained or malignly used exact a vengeance on their possessors. There are many examples of this: Hermione's misadventures with the polyjuice potion, Lockhart's disastrous attempt to put a memory charm on Harry and Ron, the threatening phantoms that emerge from Voldemort's wand. If this is a known principle of the magical world, it would explain why Dumbledore is so permissive. Magical crimes punish themselves in the end, so he merely needs to protect the innocent until the guilty have reformed themselves or paid the ultimate price for their misdeeds. From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 6 21:03:10 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:03:10 -0000 Subject: Snape after the DADA job (was rants about the sorting hat) In-Reply-To: <3B6EF334.B8631BA9@texas.net> Message-ID: <9kn0me+7661@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23738 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > I think this damn-near-canon notion that the hat wanted to put him in > Slytherin and Harry talked it out of it is incorrect, right up there > with Snape wanting the DADA job. We've been led to believe it, rather > carefully, but when you go looking for hard facts to support it, they're > not there. This is one of the things JKR wants us to believe. hmmmm. > > --Amanda > I though that one of the twins told Harry and Ron that Snape wanted the DADA job and joked that they were surprised that Snape hadn't tried to kill Quirrel? Or is that just me inventing ideas? I haven't got the books with me at my Dad's but when I get home I won't have internet access. I will take a minute to childishly stamp my foot and curse my step-father who won't let me have a phone line into my bedroom. Sofie, pitying the poor modem that hasn't been used for a year. I can just see it inside my computer doing a Winky impression! P.S (Are their male Veela? Because they aren't mentioned. If not how do they breed, or do real Veela (as opposed to half Veela) live forever?) From editor at texas.net Mon Aug 6 21:14:36 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:14:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape after the DADA job (was rants about the sorting hat) References: <9kn0me+7661@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6F08BC.87E67CAF@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23739 Sofie wrote: > I though that one of the twins told Harry and Ron that Snape wanted > the DADA job and joked that they were surprised that Snape hadn't > tried to kill Quirrel? I don't know about the last bit, but Percy was the first to mention it, and told Harry and Ron something like "everyone knows Snape is after the Defense Against the Dark Arts job." But this is precisely my point. All we actually know is that "everyone" knows this. We have no evidence that it is the truth, from Snape, Dumbledore, or anyone. It's just a rumor, so skillfully intwined and reinforced that most of us think, yeah, Snape wants it. But we don't have anything to go on but the rumorings of students. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devilsangel0809 at aol.com Mon Aug 6 21:21:19 2001 From: devilsangel0809 at aol.com (devilsangel0809 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:21:19 -0000 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 In-Reply-To: <20010806185023.43627.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kn1of+6k86@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23740 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > --- pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > >Question 8: What Ron and Harry did, > >would certainly have been worth > >expulsion. > > Why? Personally, I've never seen it as such. See below. > It's worth expulsion for a couple reasons. It was the parents responsibility to punish them about the car (the howler), but the part that is worth expulsion is the fact that they 1) Highly emabarrassed the school and 2) They were careless enough to be seen by muggles. ~Laura From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 6 21:35:07 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:35:07 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter not a children's book? Message-ID: <9kn2ib+cafk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23741 I know many of you have argued time and time again that the Harry Potter books weren't originally aimed at children however I'd like to point out some things that suggest to the contray. My main point is the characters. Apart from Voldemort, not a single character could be described as entirely evil. Even Peter Pettigrew, betrayer of his friends, was once good. He can't have always been what he is now, otherwise good people like Remus, Sirius, James and Lily would not have been his friends. Even lucius Malfoy, who is not somebody I'd like to be enemies with has one redeeming quality. I do believe that he does genuinely care about his son. He may not show it obviously but the way he kicked up a fuss about Buckbeak biting Draco indicated his feelings to me. Yes he did get carried away with getting Buckbeak executed but if someone or something hurts your child your first instinct is to hurt it back. Anyway back to my point, Voldemort is the only one who could be described as entirely evil and he is a monster not human. All the other human characters have redeeming features. I believe this was so children don't get to scared by the books. Revealing that people can be evil to young children is never a good idea. The result of this is world-weary cynical children who don't know how to trust. The discovery of purely evil people should not be made until well into your teenage years if not as an adult. JKR is a mother who reads Harry Potter to her child, I don't think she could bear to subject Jessica to that knowledge. My second, not as well thought out point is the morals behind the books. My main example of this will be CoS. This book brings up the issue of racism; pure-bloods,half-bloods and muggle-borns replace White, half-caste (I hate this term but couldn't think of a better one) and black. It also looks at how appearances can be decieving, Lockhart and Tom Riddle. How many of you guessed that these characters were not nice people before the end of the book? I think these parallels are there to teach children though they might not realise it about how society works. Anways that's my thoughts, I'm not saying that the books can't appeal to Adults and that JKR didn't put in little references for adults but I think that originally JKR wrote these books for children and that in the end good will triumph over evil. And I think that because Joanne Rowling doesn't want to disillousian (I'm sorry for my appalling spelling but I have a complete block on how to spell that word!)any children. Sofie. From devilsangel0809 at aol.com Mon Aug 6 21:47:20 2001 From: devilsangel0809 at aol.com (devilsangel0809 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:47:20 -0000 Subject: Snape after the DADA job (was rants about the sorting hat) In-Reply-To: <3B6F08BC.87E67CAF@texas.net> Message-ID: <9kn398+jdg4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23742 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Sofie wrote: > > > I though that one of the twins told Harry and Ron that Snape wanted > > the DADA job and joked that they were surprised that Snape hadn't > > tried to kill Quirrel? > > I don't know about the last bit, but Percy was the first to mention it, > and told Harry and Ron something like "everyone knows Snape is after the > Defense Against the Dark Arts job." But this is precisely my point. All > we actually know is that "everyone" knows this. We have no evidence that > it is the truth, from Snape, Dumbledore, or anyone. It's just a rumor, > so skillfully intwined and reinforced that most of us think, yeah, Snape > wants it. But we don't have anything to go on but the rumorings of > students. > > --Amanda > > IMO the "fact" that Snape wants the DADA job has got to be just a student enforced rumor. If you think about (which I'm sure you all do) if Snape really wanted that job, he would have gotten it already. After every year a new DADA teacher has been needed. All Snape would have to do would be to go to Dumbledore and offer himself for that job, then Dumbledore would just have to search for a new Potions master rather than a new DADA professor. ~Laura From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 22:20:10 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:20:10 -0000 Subject: Ranting about the hat (was one of those lots of subject things) In-Reply-To: <3B6F00B9.2C0B4FB4@texas.net> Message-ID: <9kn56q+6e7k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23743 I do apologized. I meant to say "I agree that the hat was NOT on the verge of..." Unfortunately, I had a nasty typo there. Sorry. Marcus From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com Mon Aug 6 22:35:03 2001 From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:35:03 -0000 Subject: First Post - Veela's In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010806193229.009fb0e0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <9kn62n+rqmg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23744 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Martin Hooper wrote: > I was wondering if anyone had any theory's/ideas about what veela's are? > > The only thing that we know from the books are that they are female and > they have a powerful influence on the male's they are around. Even Fleur > who is part veela has the same effect on Ron. Any theories on how this > happens..? I don't pretend to know what veela in this series are supposed to be, but in "real-life", they are eastern European wood and water spirits. If men see a veela, they would become enchanted and waste away for lack of being with her. (source: "Spirits, Fairies, Leprechauns, and Goblins", Carol Rose Meril From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Mon Aug 6 22:39:07 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:39:07 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter not a children's book? In-Reply-To: <9kn2ib+cafk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kn6ab+4mbk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23745 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > I know many of you have argued time and time again that the Harry > Potter books weren't originally aimed at children however I'd like to > point out some things that suggest to the contray. > > My main point is the characters. Apart from Voldemort, not a single > character could be described as entirely evil. Even Peter Pettigrew, > betrayer of his friends, was once good. He can't have always been > what he is now, otherwise good people like Remus, Sirius, James and > Lily would not have been his friends. Even lucius Malfoy, who is not > somebody I'd like to be enemies with has one redeeming quality. I do > believe that he does genuinely care about his son. He may not show it > obviously but the way he kicked up a fuss about Buckbeak biting Draco > indicated his feelings to me. Yes he did get carried away with > getting Buckbeak executed but if someone or something hurts your > child your first instinct is to hurt it back. Anyway back to my > point, Voldemort is the only one who could be described as entirely > evil and he is a monster not human. All the other human characters > have redeeming features. I believe this was so children don't get to > scared by the books. Revealing that people can be evil to young > children is never a good idea. The result of this is world-weary > cynical children who don't know how to trust. The discovery of purely > evil people should not be made until well into your teenage years if > not as an adult. JKR is a mother who reads Harry Potter to her child, > I don't think she could bear to subject Jessica to that knowledge. Personally, I don't believe in purely evil people - in my opinion, that's the childish notion. It's shades of grey and the idea that good people can do bad things that are the ideas people have to learn. Similarly, I believe that everyone can be reformed - if not, why don't we just shoot everyone who goes to prison? From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 22:41:13 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:41:13 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy Message-ID: <9kn6e9+u0rh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23746 Here is a question that I've been toying with for some time -- might Lucius end up reforming. We first met him in Knockturn Alley. I was impressed with the impatience he showed to Draco's excuse making. LM is a better parent than the Dursleys ever were. I am not saying for a second that he is not a pure-blood snob, but it didn't stop him from admitting in front of Draco and the shop keeper that Hermione beat the snot out of Draco accademically. We next find him trying to orchastrate Dumbledore's removal as Hogwarts' Headmaster. It didn't work, but one is left with the question of what would happen if it had? Would Lucius become the next headmaster? If that be the case, would that have been more to serve evil or to serve Lucius Malfoy? Yes, it could have been both, but what was more on his mind? Finally we meet him again in GoF. He is hobnobbing with Fudge. He has socially got it made. So, here we have a guy who is mean and nasty and is in good with the status quo. With Voldemort's return, he has now been reduced to being a toady of a psycho. What are his thoughts? Wouldn't be interesting if Lucius reforms and Draco goes off the deep end? Marcus From natabat at crosswinds.net Mon Aug 6 22:42:22 2001 From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:42:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter not a children's book? References: <9kn2ib+cafk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007d01c11ec9$1de6a880$0101a8c0@hp> No: HPFGUIDX 23747 ---- Original Message ----- From: "Sofie " To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 2:35 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter not a children's book? > I know many of you have argued time and time again that the Harry > Potter books weren't originally aimed at children however I'd like to > point out some things that suggest to the contray. > > My main point is the characters. Apart from Voldemort, not a single > character could be described as entirely evil. >I believe this was so children don't get to > scared by the books. But generally, in children's stories, the antagonists ARE purely evil--and, conversly, the protaganists are pretty much good (with the exception of the "Grumpy" character who nevertheless ends up doing the right thing). In fairy tales, you have the stepmothers, the witches, the bad fairies, and the hungry wolves. In the Chronicles of Prydain (Lloyd Alexander) you have Arawn, Death Lord. In the Enchanted Forest (Patricia Wrede) you have the Society of Wizards (who are mostly more comical than evil, but still are not good). In The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (and The Magician's Nephew) you have the White Witch (or Jadis). (There are most definitely other examples from Narnia, but I can't remember them). The Care Bears were constantly staring down No Heart (a very appropriate, if overly simplistic, name). The Fraggles had to outrun the giants to reach the trash heap. The Smurfs had to watch out for Gargamel. Aladdin battled Jafar, Simba battled Scar, and Aurora (Sleeping Beauty)/Phillip battled Melificent. You (more than) get the idea. (Sorry...I was remembering my (fairly recent) childhood, and the "You Know You're a Child of the 80s If..." list I was reading last night didn't help any either). Now, that's not to say that children's stories CAN'T have not-quite-so-evil characters (Lewis' The Last Battle serves as a pretty darn good example) (and that children can't handle them), but traditionally, they don't. IMHO, the complex characterizations are actually aimed at a more mature crowd. Also, you say that the not-entirely-evil characters a written that way so children don't get scared. However, the most popular answer to the "What HP Character scares you the most?" thread (excepting the dementors) seems to be Peter Pettigrew. I also saw a Fudge and a couple of BC Jrs--but almost no Voldemorts. I think that purely evil characters have an other-worldly sense about them that makes it easy for us (as well as children) to separate ourselves from them. Also, JKR has shown no sign of easing up on the creepiness to keep it kid-safe (and has said quite a few times that she doesn't plan to). That said, purely-evil-Voldemort's "Kill the spare," was easily the creepiest line I've ever read anywhere. ::Shiver:: Natalie natabat at crosswinds.net http://www.natabat.barrysworld.net ----- "The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win you're still a rat." - Lily Tomlin From r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 22:52:03 2001 From: r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com (r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:52:03 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <9kkmeu+m5gh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kn72j+49vf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23748 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > Also, Neville's persona seems very teacher like. (Forgetful seems like a good one.) He's also pretty good at Herbology, so he has something which he could teach. I think Neville is a good candidate. But another possibility is Parvati Patil -- she's been enamoured with Divination (and Trelawny) since Day 1. In PoA16, after her exam she gloats, "She says I've got all the makings of a true Seer...I saw loads of stuff...". Now, I'm not suggesting Parvati's a TRUE Seer, but maybe a good imitation seer; good enough to be an instructor like Trelawny. Or maybe one of Harry's Quidditch teammates will be Madam Hooch's replacement. Angelina Johnson perhaps. Red Queen From anitaskeeter at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 22:57:56 2001 From: anitaskeeter at yahoo.com (Laura somethingorother) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:57:56 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter: The Epitome of Ethics (was Rita's Scoop) In-Reply-To: <9kmr2t+rr3c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kn7dk+sjnv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23749 (that was a sarcastic title) Dang. You know....I wasn't sure of myself when I wrote that. I was sort of banking on the fact that certainly no one would read my answers to those questions, but ah well. We all wish for anonymity when it suits our needs. Lemme see if I can justify my actions like the good little Slytherin I am. I do agree, of course, that Rita is a very nasty piece of work. I'm sure she'd not only have been one of the first on the scene at Di's crash, but probably would have been indirectly involved by trying to splatter herself on the windshield in her Animagus form. Hmm. THAT's a theory; Rita was what caused the crash in the first place...what a scoop. Erm....well. As for Hagrid's being half-giant, one must admit that it was very news-worthy, even if the means by which the information was obtained were sick and wrong. Since most wizards think of giants as mean-spirited and brutal, Rita could argue a sense of civic duty in informing the wizarding community at large that their children were "in danger." But of course we all know Rita too well to believe she had good intentions. Oh, I'm sure she thinks something of humiliating people. She thinks it good fun. And of course she has no regard for the law; but then again, who DOES in the HP books, except for possibly Snape? The Boy Who Lived doesn't particularly concern himself with the laws of the land. Of course, he makes up for it by following a higher sort of law, and Rita doesn't.....really...do that....but y'know. Yeah, she writes damaging things. But I confess I found them hilarious. She has absolutely no morals or ethics, and she editorialized her hard news stories and broke eighty-four thousand rules and oh, sometimes I wish I could do the same. I live vicariously through Rita. How sad is that? I love her because she's absolutely a horrible person and KNOWS it and is completely unrepentant. There's some Pratchett quote from "The Truth" that perfectly illustrates this side of my personality, but be danged if I can remember it. Ah well. I'll find it and create a very meaningless post. --Anita who cheerfully admits that she rather enjoys tabloids, as they are hilarious and report such scientific miracles as three-headed dogs (Fluffy!) From anitaskeeter at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 23:02:09 2001 From: anitaskeeter at yahoo.com (Laura somethingorother) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 23:02:09 -0000 Subject: Correction: Rita Skeeter: The Epitome of Ethics In-Reply-To: <9kn7dk+sjnv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kn7lh+a55a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23750 When I said Snape, I meant Percy. Whoops. But hey, Snape sure does value rules when it means getting "Potter" in trouble, so... A. From caliburncy at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 23:43:37 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 23:43:37 -0000 Subject: Snape after the DADA job (was rants about the sorting hat) In-Reply-To: <3B6F08BC.87E67CAF@texas.net> Message-ID: <9kna39+nsgn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23751 I have often wondered if this is being used as set-up for something, but I don't know what. Amanda is perfectly correct when she says that nowhere in the books is it actually confirmed that Snape wants the DADA job. It is always stated as just a rumor amongst the students (although she sneakily tries to make it SOUND like fact). It is the proliferation of this rumor that interests me. In the first book, it made sense. It was characterization and it helped mislead the reader to think Snape was evil (albeit badly since I was never fooled). But it gets brought up all the time in successive books, so obviously JKR's not done with the idea or she probably wouldn't keep reinforcing it. But really, if there was basis to the rumor, why wouldn't we get confirmation from a more reliable source like Dumbledore or the rest of the staff? And more importantly, there is contrary evidence. Hagrid says in CoS that Lockhart only got the DADA job because no one else was interested. So I really think JKR may use this later on for some purpose. But what that purpose is eludes me. -Luke --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Sofie wrote: > > > I though that one of the twins told Harry and Ron that Snape wanted > > the DADA job and joked that they were surprised that Snape hadn't > > tried to kill Quirrel? > > I don't know about the last bit, but Percy was the first to mention it, > and told Harry and Ron something like "everyone knows Snape is after the > Defense Against the Dark Arts job." But this is precisely my point. All > we actually know is that "everyone" knows this. We have no evidence that > it is the truth, from Snape, Dumbledore, or anyone. It's just a rumor, > so skillfully intwined and reinforced that most of us think, yeah, Snape > wants it. But we don't have anything to go on but the rumorings of > students. > > --Amanda > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 6 23:54:19 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 23:54:19 -0000 Subject: HP and The Ten Commandments #1 In-Reply-To: <9kmvn6+3d3v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knanb+qvqj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23752 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > > 1) I the Lord am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, the > house of bondage. snip In Rowling's world, as in many folktales, magical objects > improperly obtained or malignly used exact a vengeance on their > possessors. There are many examples of this: Hermione's misadventures > with the polyjuice potion, Lockhart's disastrous attempt to put a > memory charm on Harry and Ron, the threatening phantoms that emerge > from Voldemort's wand. If this is a known principle of the magical > world, it would explain why Dumbledore is so permissive. Magical crimes > punish themselves in the end, so he merely needs to protect the > innocent until the guilty have reformed themselves or paid the ultimate > price for their misdeeds. The idea of magical crimes punishing themselves seems to work to some extent on what I'll call minor misdeeds. Dumbledore can afford to be lenient if the idea is that misuse of things like the polyjuice potion or Lockhart's idiocy are the crimes. But, if you look at other crimes, those outside of Hogwarts, we don't have evidence that this theory holds up. Peter Pettigrew has not paid for his crime - Sirius Black has paid for it. Granted, Peter may get his in the end, or he may pay for his actions in some selfless act later on, but he may still find a way to slither out of sight if things go wrong for Voldemort. And we've been told that a number of DEs managed to avoid imprisonment by saying they were under the Imperious Curse, and not responsible for their actions. Again, in the future, we may see that people's actions come back on them, but at this point in the series, there are a number of people who have gone unpunished. Marianne, who thoroughly enjoyed this post and is looking forward to the next nine. From buster at dnahelix.com Mon Aug 6 23:55:56 2001 From: buster at dnahelix.com (buster at dnahelix.com) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 23:55:56 -0000 Subject: Why Voldie's curse rebounded ... In-Reply-To: <9k9m0m+oft8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knaqc+2gqf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23753 > > > Michelle wrote: > > > here's a big ol' what if. > > > What if Voldie's curse rebounded off of harry because they > > > share the same blood? > > > > > Catherine wrote: > > There's just one major flaw to this argument - Harry is the > > spitting image of James, apart from the eyes. "Remarkably" so, > > according to Dumbledore. > Red Queen wrote: > Yes, Harry is the spitting image of James, but they both look like > someone else -- when Tom Riddle comes out of the diary in the > Chamber of Secrets he's described as tall and dark-haired. Hmmmmm. > > It's probably been discussed here before, but why is V.described > as looking so much like Harry and James? Why does Harry think he's > heard Tom Riddle's name, like an old school friend? > Why are Harry and V. both half-bloods? > JKR seems to be pointing (or throwing a red herring) to some > relation (but the Dursleys are Harry's only > living relatives) or "Heir of Slytherin/Gryffindor" connection. > Any theories? Well, all the similarities between Harry, James, and Voldemort could all be entirely coiencidental. But JKR has certainly hit us with enough red herrings at this point to make us more skeptical than that. So, if Harry and V. are not immediately related (father/son), then what about an "extended" relation, like maybe V. is an uncle or something...although that doesn't seem very interesting. And if you look at the whole 'six degrees of seperation' thing, I'm sure they would share a common relative at some point. OK, try this: Given the fact they do look alike (Harry and Voldemort) and we know Harry looks like his father,why should we surmise that Harry is somehow decended from Voldemort, why couldn't it be the other way around? Wizards have the access to alter time (like with Time Turner device). So what if Voldemort's mother were actually from a future time, got involved in a relationship with Harry, and for some reason used it to escape into the distant past...How's that for a twist? But then maybe not, Voldemort would have needed to use Harry's bone for his restoration spell in GOF and not just his blood...hmmm. But if this were somehow true, it would be the ultimate defense aginst Voldemort. If he should ever succeed in his attempts to kill Harry... I guess I'm gonna need to go think about this one some more. -Helix From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 00:01:22 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:01:22 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy In-Reply-To: <9kn6e9+u0rh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knb4i+t1nd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23754 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > Here is a question that I've been toying with for some time -- might > Lucius end up reforming. > > Wouldn't be interesting if Lucius reforms and Draco goes off the deep > end? > > Marcus I think that of all the Death Eaters so far depicted, Lucius Malfoy is the most aware. He does have all the advanages: family, wealth, social standing. He is not a mindless thug, like Crabbe and Goyle (by extension from their sons, I admit) nor is he the product of years of schoolyard disdain, as was Wormtail. He is right up there with the Lestranges. I see little possibility of redemption for Malfoy, Sr. He might attempt to set himself up as a rival to LV, or to manipulate the Dark Lord to his own ends, but that is not to say that he will repent or reform. As for Draco, that rotten apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Neither will turn out to be good. Anybody care to wager on it? We will know all in about three or four years? Something small, like the winner's choice of paperback book? Any takers? Haggridd Haggridd From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Aug 7 00:28:46 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:28:46 -0000 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 In-Reply-To: <9kl607+96a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kncnu+rvm1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23755 > Question 1: Mrs. Weasley certainly is neither stupid nor dull. > How come she doesn't notice the magical transformations the car > has undergone? ("Muggles *do* know more than we give them credit > for, don't they?") She's trying to lull Arthur into a false sense of security, especially in front of the children. Once they get home, she's going to let him have it, just as she jumped on Fred and George for taking the car to go get Harry. > Question 2: I'd like you to express your opinions on the couple > Molly&Arthur. They seem to get on very well, but would you say > the have a relationship of equals? Yes, Molly is the more vocal and overtly emotional, which nicely balances Arthur's more easy-going personality. They seem well matched to me. > Question 3: Did anybody at this point think it had something to do > with Dobby or did you attribute the sealing of the gate to their > being late (it rhymes, I'm thunderstruck with my own talent!)? I didn't, but then, I really never liked Dobby, so when he's out of sight, he's out of mind, for me. > Question 4: (As the question about starting the car/underage magic > has already been sufficiently discussed, I just leave it out. > BUT:) Doesn't this scene tell us something about Ron? He knows > that Harry has already got one warning from the MoM and will face > expulsion if he's caught doing Underage Magic another time. Is Ron selfishly trying to show off? Is he extremely impulsive? I think this solution occurred to Ron because it was obvious - right there in front of them - no one around to talk them out of it. Impulsive, yes. Lack of thinking about the potential consequences of his actions, yes. Selfish or show-off-ish, no. > Question 5: Do you think the weather in general and the > meteorological conditions on 1 September have a symbolical value > in the books? Is it important that, as the books are > getting "darker", the weather on the day of departure is getting > worse with every book? Never noticed, but I'll pay attention going forward. > Question 7: Why does Snape wait for them?( It should be McGonagall > who is Head of Gryffindor. She does not necessarily have to survey > the Sorting ceremony, as we know from PoA, where she summons Harry > and Hermione into her office, while Prof. Flitwick replaces her at > the Sorting.) It's a plot device to make Snape look mean. And he carrys it off with flying colors. > Question 8: What Ron and Harry did, would certainly have been > worth expulsion. Much as we all like the two of them, do you think > it OK McGonagall lets them get away just with detention? And why > do you think she made this decision? I'm troubled by what exactly merits expulsion. We've been told that use of magic by under-age wizards can lead to expulsion, but that rule never seems to be enforced. Hagrid was expelled in his third year, but still gets away with doing some magic. Draco's attempt to rattle Harry with a Dementor imitation in PoA certainly seemed vicious enough for extreme punishment. Sirius' joke on Snape also seemed beyond the pale. Neither was expelled. To my mind, these are potentially more serious acts than performing a Hover Charm in the Dursleys kitchen. > > > CHAPTER 6- Gilderoy Lockhart > > > Question 10: It has never been made really clear how Mr. Weasley > managed to keep his job at the MoM, given that the charge against > him was quite serious (Rita Skeeter's article in GoF only mentions > that he was charged with the illegal possession of an enchanted > car) . How do you think he got himself out? > I imagine he has enough friends or goodwill from those in power to weasel out of it. > Question 12: Do you think that Lockhart's way of presenting > himself as The- One- Who- Always- Knows- Best is a result of > stupidity combined with selfishness and conceit, or is it simply a > calculated strategy, trying how far people will let him go > (following Hitler's famous: The bigger the lie, the more people > will believe it)? Is he a Slytherin? Stupidity, egomania, conceit. I don't think it's a calculated strategy because Lockhart always seems to do something idiotic that shows him up to be a stupid, conceited egomaniac. Maybe he was one of those pretty people who everyone always made excuses for, and he became accustomed to doing whatever he wanted because no one ever challenged him. A Slytherin? Maybe - he certainly seems to have ambition, but it all seem centered on self-aggrandizement. I tend to think of Slytherins as being more aware of their talents and how to use them, but then I think of Crabbe and Goyle and my thinkging explodes into tiny bits. > > Question 13: Which part of the plant is used for potion- making? > Do they chop up the leaves or the "roots" (eurgh!!)? And if it's > the leaves, what happens to the "roots"? Sorry, but this has been > tormenting me since I first read the book. I don't want to know. > Question 14: The general opinion about Colin Creevey isn't too > positive but what about his behaviour during this scene? Standing > up to Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, on his first day at Hogwarts and > furthermore being Muggle- born, indicates that he has a lot of > courage. And what do you think about his surprising psychological > insight? Is Malfoy really jealous of Harry? Colin can be annoying, but he's alright. He makes me think of Neville, but with less timidity. And, is Malfoy jealous? I keep waiting for him to turn just the right shade of green to go with his silvery-blond hair. > > Question 15: How come that Hermione who as far as we know her, is > not a person to judge people because of their looks, is so easily > fooled by Lockhart? If not his tactless behaviour to Prof. Sprout, > at least the Pixie incident should have cast some light upon who > and what he really is. She's just cutting him some slack because he's cute. I guess that 12- year-old boys don't have a monopoly on silly thinking. 12-year-old girls can be just as silly. Marianne From supergirl1024 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 00:35:18 2001 From: supergirl1024 at yahoo.com (Gwyneth) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:35:18 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy In-Reply-To: <9knb4i+t1nd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knd46+jph0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23756 Froma completely canon-based POV, I believe that yes, Lucius Malfoy is bad for good. Draco onthe other hand, is probably not. Like Snape, his asshole-personality is to glaringly obvious, Snape isn't going over to the Dark Side in the end, i doubt Draco is either. He will probably be an insensitive prejudice jerk all his life, but leave the killing to the Death Eaters. Why? What sign of a conscience or a heart has Malfoy shown in Canon? He seems to love his mother. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > Here is a question that I've been toying with for some time -- might > > Lucius end up reforming. > > > > > Wouldn't be interesting if Lucius reforms and Draco goes off the > deep > > end? > > > > Marcus > > I think that of all the Death Eaters so far depicted, Lucius Malfoy is > the most aware. He does have all the advanages: family, wealth, > social standing. He is not a mindless thug, like Crabbe and Goyle (by > extension from their sons, I admit) nor is he the product of years of > schoolyard disdain, as was Wormtail. He is right up there with the > Lestranges. I see little possibility of redemption for Malfoy, Sr. > He might attempt to set himself up as a rival to LV, or to manipulate > the Dark Lord to his own ends, but that is not to say that he will > repent or reform. As for Draco, that rotten apple doesn't fall far > from the tree. Neither will turn out to be good. Anybody care to > wager on it? We will know all in about three or four years? > Something small, like the winner's choice of paperback book? Any > takers? > > Haggridd > > Haggridd From golden_faile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 01:07:33 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <9kmq3e+p0cm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010807010733.39501.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23757 --- mgrantwich at yahoo.com wrote: > >> Kelly Hurt wrote: > >> Draco Malfoy is, in my opinion, exactly > >> what he will always be: an insensitive, spoiled, > cruel-hearted, > >> pure-blooded snob. > > > I second the motion though I have never believed > that he should or > > might reform. I generally resent attempts to make > the character > > more palatable by predicting future regrets for > present behaviour. > > I like Draco as he stands, he is nasty but > appealingly nasty. > > Catriona/Incitata > > I third the motion. Draco serves an important > purpose in the canon: > he offers a total contrast to Harry who's a nice kid > who's had to > struggle all his life. Draco is a nasty kid who's > had it all with > ice cream on top and yet is a little fiend. No > redemption on the > cards for Draco. > I'll admit that sometimes people tend to go a little over the top with wanting Draco to change, and I would normally be inclined to agree with you but...As I recall, Dudley also serves the purpose of being a nasty little wretch also. Maybe Draco WILL change, Maybe NOT, but as we've learned in the past;Nothing is impossible. So, I woldn't dismiss Draco's redemption just yet,Only Jo Knows the real truth. Laila __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 7 01:11:59 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 01:11:59 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter not a children's book? In-Reply-To: <9kn2ib+cafk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knf8v+p9tr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23758 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > I think that originally JKR wrote these books for children and that > in the end good will triumph over evil. And I think that because > Joanne Rowling doesn't want to disillousian (I'm sorry for my > appalling spelling but I have a complete block on how to spell that > word!)any children. > By that logic, William Shakespeare also wrote for children, since he always depicted Good's ultimate triumph over Evil (even though Good might have to own up to its sinful rejection of Cordelia which encouraged Goneril and Regan to run amuck). Us sophisticated po-mo adults OTOH will only accept as authenticated literature those works which depict the ultimate triumph of Buchenwald, the Gulag and 1950s Selma. I will despair, and be at enmity With cozening hope: he is a flatterer, A parasite, a keeper back of death, Who gently would dissolve the bands of life, Which false hope lingers in extremity. - Richard II, Act II, Scene II - CM ("Eat Death and Die") C From caliburncy at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 01:15:37 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 01:15:37 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter not a children's book? In-Reply-To: <9kn2ib+cafk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knffq+t8gh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23759 This was an interesting post for me to read (quoted at the very end), because I have always agreed that the Harry Potter books are more children's books than adult's (irregardless of the fact that JKR wrote them with herself in mind), but I found the reasoning stated here to be very, very strange. As Natalie points out with a very extensive list, purely evil (one-dimensional) villains are extraordinarily common in children's fantasy. I might almost go so far as to say that they are a defining factor . . . but I won't. Children's books are characteristically black and white like this probably because we underestimate our children's ability to comprehend those more complex shades of gray. I imagine that we must be afraid that if they see a truly Shakespearean (three-dimensional) villain they will identify with him/her *too* much. I think this is nonsense, but it seems to be the prevailing school of thought: just ask Disney. So really, I'd say the existence of Voldemort is an argument in favor of HP being a children's book. The existence of those other characters who are not purely evil (Pettigrew, Lucius, or whoever) would be more of an argument for an adult book. Although I don't think it's a very strong one as even these characters lie somewhere inbetween purely evil and Shakespearean. For convenience of a term, I'd call them two-dimensional. Seriously though, think about the books you read in high school and/or college for English class. If these books even had anyone at all that was non-ambiguous enough to be coined 'villain' than they were surely a three-dimensional one. Consider some of these books for a VERY short list because I'm having a terrible case of mental block: Julius Caesar, Heart of Darkness, Richard III, etc. (there are many more examples from Shakespeare besides those two, of course, as that's why the term "Shakespearean villain" came about). Villains that we can identify with, understand their twisted motivations, and pity for their misguided ways: these are the stuff of adult literature more than children's. It is also the realm of the anti-hero (e.g. in books like Lolita, Notes from the Underground, etc.), lending more kindling to the fire of ethical ambiguity. When an adult book has a "perfectly evil" or "perfectly good" character it is disregarded by many as melodrama. This is, in fact, one of the only things I don't like about fantasy, although I am nevertheless an avid fan. I hate the way that the villains are so one-dimensional. The main characters are usually three-dimensional, though that certainly doesn't make them anti-heroes. But the villains are unrealisitic in a way that, even in fantasy, ought to not be so. I've done such a bad job of explaining this and have more to say, but I feel I should stop. Perhaps I'll revisit this later. Before I stop though I should say that I do agree with the points about morality being an indicator that it might be a children's book. Much of adult literature is frequently less direct in the way it approaches moral issues than childen's books because adults are quick to feel like they're getting preached to. So instead it comes in the form of philosophical ponderings, the aforementioned ethical ambiguity, and concealed social commentary. The HP books, like most children's fiction, really only strongly contains the latter of these: concealed social commentary. But it also features some more direct platitudes than you would be able to get away with in some "adult literary" circles. Not that one way is better or worse than the other. I really think there's value in both. -Luke --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > I know many of you have argued time and time again that the Harry > Potter books weren't originally aimed at children however I'd like to > point out some things that suggest to the contray. > > My main point is the characters. Apart from Voldemort, not a single > character could be described as entirely evil. Even Peter Pettigrew, > betrayer of his friends, was once good. He can't have always been > what he is now, otherwise good people like Remus, Sirius, James and > Lily would not have been his friends. Even lucius Malfoy, who is not > somebody I'd like to be enemies with has one redeeming quality. I do > believe that he does genuinely care about his son. He may not show it > obviously but the way he kicked up a fuss about Buckbeak biting Draco > indicated his feelings to me. Yes he did get carried away with > getting Buckbeak executed but if someone or something hurts your > child your first instinct is to hurt it back. Anyway back to my > point, Voldemort is the only one who could be described as entirely > evil and he is a monster not human. All the other human characters > have redeeming features. I believe this was so children don't get to > scared by the books. Revealing that people can be evil to young > children is never a good idea. The result of this is world-weary > cynical children who don't know how to trust. The discovery of purely > evil people should not be made until well into your teenage years if > not as an adult. JKR is a mother who reads Harry Potter to her child, > I don't think she could bear to subject Jessica to that knowledge. > > My second, not as well thought out point is the morals behind the > books. My main example of this will be CoS. This book brings up the > issue of racism; pure-bloods,half-bloods and muggle-borns replace > White, half-caste (I hate this term but couldn't think of a better > one) and black. It also looks at how appearances can be decieving, > Lockhart and Tom Riddle. How many of you guessed that these > characters were not nice people before the end of the book? I think > these parallels are there to teach children though they might not > realise it about how society works. > > Anways that's my thoughts, I'm not saying that the books can't appeal > to Adults and that JKR didn't put in little references for adults but > I think that originally JKR wrote these books for children and that > in the end good will triumph over evil. And I think that because > Joanne Rowling doesn't want to disillousian (I'm sorry for my > appalling spelling but I have a complete block on how to spell that > word!)any children. > > Sofie. From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Tue Aug 7 01:24:54 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:24:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23760 : waves hand in air, takes haggridd's bet. I wager a 1st ed GoF that book 7 will not end without draco having previously done 1 good and redeemable thing. And I move for amanda and angela boyko to serve as determinors. -----Original Message----- From: Haggridd To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon Aug 06 20:01:22 2001 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy Real-To: "Haggridd" --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > Here is a question that I've been toying with for some time -- might > Lucius end up reforming. > > Wouldn't be interesting if Lucius reforms and Draco goes off the deep > end? > > Marcus I think that of all the Death Eaters so far depicted, Lucius Malfoy is the most aware. He does have all the advanages: family, wealth, social standing. He is not a mindless thug, like Crabbe and Goyle (by extension from their sons, I admit) nor is he the product of years of schoolyard disdain, as was Wormtail. He is right up there with the Lestranges. I see little possibility of redemption for Malfoy, Sr. He might attempt to set himself up as a rival to LV, or to manipulate the Dark Lord to his own ends, but that is not to say that he will repent or reform. As for Draco, that rotten apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Neither will turn out to be good. Anybody care to wager on it? We will know all in about three or four years? Something small, like the winner's choice of paperback book? Any takers? Haggridd Haggridd _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI PS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From joym999 at aol.com Tue Aug 7 01:52:13 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 01:52:13 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Wand (FAQ Critique) In-Reply-To: <9kaa52+3lt5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knhkd+kfo5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23761 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > *Hagrid's Wand* > Why can Hagrid do magic with his umbrella holding the pieces of his > wand but Ron can't with his broken wand? > > I can't remember what Hagrid's core was but unless it was Phoenix > feather, it likely would not be very brittle. So when they broke it > or "snapped" it -- I believe he tells Harry -- the oak would break in > two, but the core would likely be undamaged. > > Now if Hagrid were to place that core inside of the shaft of his > umbrella, he would have essentials of a wand -- ie: an unbroken casing > of wood and magical core. > > Ron's broken wand had a broken casing, and I think the core might > have been damaged as well. That is why Hagrid's pseudo-wand worked > and Ron's didn't. > If someone is adding possible explanations to the FAQ, I have always thought that the reason why Hagrid can do magic with his broken wand while Ron can not is because Hagrid has had 50 years to practice. --Joywitch From margdean at erols.com Tue Aug 7 01:20:19 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:20:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter not a children's book? References: <9knffq+t8gh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6F4253.BBD41493@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23762 caliburncy at yahoo.com wrote: > Before I stop though I should say that I do agree with the points > about morality being an indicator that it might be a children's book. > Much of adult literature is frequently less direct in the way it > approaches moral issues than childen's books because adults are quick > to feel like they're getting preached to. So instead it comes in the > form of philosophical ponderings, the aforementioned ethical > ambiguity, and concealed social commentary. The HP books, like most > children's fiction, really only strongly contains the latter of these: > concealed social commentary. But it also features some more direct > platitudes than you would be able to get away with in some "adult > literary" circles. Not that one way is better or worse than the > other. I really think there's value in both. But there's a big difference between "not the sort of literature approved of in modern, cynical, oh-so-enlightened 21st-Century adult literary circles" and "not a children's book." Well, yes, nowadays if you want to tell a good story, if you want to give it halfway-obvious moral underpinnings, if you want to write about people actually =doing something= to =fight evil,= the only way you're going to get it published is to market it as a children's book (or possibly as one of the other defined "genres," such as fantasy, which still value storytelling). But throughout most of the history of humankind you wouldn't have had to do that. Pure storytelling (like fairy tales) only got relegated to the nursery because the grown-ups had decided it was shabby and old-fashioned, not because it was in itself particularly suited to children (or unsuited to adults, for that matter). Harry Potter is a good story for people who like stories, no matter what their age happens to be. --Margaret Dean From editor at texas.net Tue Aug 7 02:26:43 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:26:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy References: Message-ID: <3B6F51E2.341D92CE@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23763 "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > : waves hand in air, takes haggridd's bet. > I wager a 1st ed GoF that book 7 will not end without draco having > previously done 1 good and redeemable thing. > And I move for amanda and angela boyko to serve as determinors. Explain duties, please. I think Draco's an unredeemable unrepentant little slime. Does that prejudice me against this position? It'll have to be a pretty damned good thing---I'm not cutting Draco any slack, like giving him loads of credit for some weenie little measly deed just because, in comparison to his usual behavior, it's like walking on water. --Amanda (wonders why Heidi didn't wager a 1st ed. Book 7, they're cheaper and easier to get) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tmayor at mediaone.net Tue Aug 7 02:29:35 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 02:29:35 -0000 Subject: Veela's (waylaying women) In-Reply-To: <3B6EF0A3.C8CA6042@texas.net> Message-ID: <9knjqf+a8oc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23764 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Just for grinsies, can anyone think of a creature that waylays women by > the same device? I myself am imagining a being that's a cross between Mr. Clean, the Pillsbury Dough Boy and a large pillow. But seriously, maybe we should start by looking at who has waylaid *our* listie females? A convicted serial killer who hasn't had a decent haircut and shave in 13 years, and a nearly reclusive, now- unemployed werewolf. It's a tiresome cliche, but it seems to hold mostly true in HP: women go for the tortured souls, and men, at least initially, for the sheets of platinum blonde whatever (c.f. any description of Fleur etc.) [Exceptions here would be, surprisingly, Krum, who falls for not-patently-gorgeous Hermione, and, some would argue, Ron. But not Harry, who pines after pretty, unattainable Cho.] ~Rosmerta who's also remembering that the Veela turn into ugly monsters when their team starts to lose. From editor at texas.net Tue Aug 7 02:36:41 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:36:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Veela's (waylaying women) References: <9knjqf+a8oc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B6F5439.C867ED1E@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23765 Rosmerta wrote: > But seriously, maybe we should start by looking at who has waylaid > *our* listie females? A convicted serial killer who hasn't had a > decent haircut and shave in 13 years, and a nearly reclusive, > now-unemployed werewolf. Rosmerta? Dear? You forget the lonely maker of potions, alone in his dungeon with his cauldrons, so certain he cannot be loved that he forces all away.....Snape *was* the first to have his own spinoff group, you know.... --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 02:48:59 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 02:48:59 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9knkur+mr2j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23766 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > : waves hand in air, takes haggridd's bet. > I wager a 1st ed GoF that book 7 will not end without draco having > previously done 1 good and redeemable thing. > And I move for amanda and angela boyko to serve as determinors. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Haggridd > To: HPforGrownups at y... > Sent: Mon Aug 06 20:01:22 2001 > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy > > Real-To: "Haggridd" ? > > As for Draco, that rotten apple doesn't fall far > from the tree. Neither will turn out to be good. Anybody care to > wager on it? We will know all in about three or four years? > Something small, like the winner's choice of paperback book? Any > takers? > > Haggridd > Heidi, that is not exactly what I wagered on. To have done one good thing is not at all the same thing as to turn out to be good. Nice try, clever lady, but no cigar. I would define "turning out to be good" as renouncing LV and joining the side of Dumbledore. Would you care to rephrase, please? Angela Boyko and Amanda are perfectly acceptable, with Amy Z. to cast a deciding vote in case of a tie. Haggridd > From smurfs143143 at aol.com Tue Aug 7 02:58:08 2001 From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 02:58:08 -0000 Subject: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <20010806180300.68688.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9knlg0+9emo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23767 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > --- meboriqua at a... wrote: > > > I see Draco as someone who > >desperately needs to break away from > >Mommy and Daddy (especially Daddy). > >[snip] He has yet to question his > >parents' views. > > When I first started reading the books, I thought Draco was just > repeating what he heard his parents say. I figured when hell finally > broke loose and he saw it wasn't a game or story -- that real people > could be and would be hurt, maybe even killed -- he would re-think his > position. I don't think that way any more: > > "Too late now, Potter!... Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well -- > second -- Diggory was f--" GOF, last chapter. > > This is not the speech of someone just playing at it. It was cruel and > shows no regret or fear. Draco Malfoy is, in my opinion, exactly what > he will always be: an insensitive, spoiled, cruel-hearted, > pure-blooded snob. > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie > ~ I agree with you that Malfoy is a truly evil person. The above quote proves that he is immune to the affect of death...one would think the death of a fellow schoolmate would have SOME sort of affect on a boy, even one as terrible as Malfoy. He is totally apathetic and I do not believe he said this statement just to keep up his reputation. I do believe, however, that Malfoy is a weak character. Maybe this will change with Book 5, but it seems to me that he has always relied on daddy. He has never thought up anything for himself, all of his ideas are those of his father. I do not believe that he can do anything without Crabbe and Goyle - they go with him everywhere - like bodygaurds. A strong character would not need such protection. I believe Malfoy has put up a "facade" in the last four books, which is now ready to come down. I believe Malfoy will become more independent - esp. with viewpoints - and ultimately, become more evil. The above quote shows that he is totally indifferent to death, and at the early age he is at (at any age for that matter), that is not a good sign. - Elizabeth From smurfs143143 at aol.com Tue Aug 7 03:05:30 2001 From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 03:05:30 -0000 Subject: First Post - Veela's In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010806193229.009fb0e0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <9knltq+7ole@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23768 they are female and > they have a powerful influence on the male's they are around. Even Fleur > who is part veela has the same effect on Ron. Any theories on how this > happens..? > > > Martin Hooper ~ Have you ever seen Batman & Robin? It's not really a good sequel...but anyway - there is a character in there that is called Poison Ivy. She attracts men by blowing a sort of powder at them. I can't recall the name - but "it's designed to heat a man's blood" and that is what makes the men attracted to her. My theory is that Veelas use some method of that sort. I mean - anyhting can happen when magic is involved. - Elizabeth From tmayor at mediaone.net Tue Aug 7 03:37:26 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 03:37:26 -0000 Subject: Veela's (waylaying women) In-Reply-To: <3B6F5439.C867ED1E@texas.net> Message-ID: <9knnpm+f63j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23769 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Rosmerta? Dear? You forget the lonely maker of potions, alone in his > dungeon with his cauldrons, so certain he cannot be loved that he forces > all away.....Snape *was* the first to have his own spinoff group, you > know.... > > --Amanda Oh, right! Forgot about the greasy-haired-one! Not to mention the golden-haired evil boy, Draco. But (in this case) they only serve to reinforce the point: where are the fan groups for the Cedrics, the Nevilles, the Bagmans of the world? Most men one meets in real life fall into the utterly-normal, slightly-nerdy-with-heart-in-right- place, or post-jock-jovial categories, yet who inspires the female fans? Outre (Sirius), outre (Lupin), and outre-with-stringy-hair (Snape). And just because I'm a little fascinated by fandom these days: is it truly true that Snape had the first spinoff group or were you merely being witty? ~Rosmerta From toomanyideas at aol.com Tue Aug 7 03:46:23 2001 From: toomanyideas at aol.com (toomanyideas at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 03:46:23 -0000 Subject: Religious Diversity in the wizarding world In-Reply-To: <9kkh5i+1qo4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knoaf+vkf0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23770 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > Margaret Dean wrote: "...Hogwarts celebrates Muggle holidays such as > Christmas and Halloween." > > > Or it could be that I am associating 'muggle' with 'Christian'. > I have often been bothered by the celebration of Christmas at Hogwarts. Obviously, for those raised in Muggle and Christian households, this might be just a British cultural expectation. There is certainly no mention of the birth of Jesus...or of anything remotely religious. However, JKR has gone out of her way to show us that the students at Hogwarts come from a variety of backgrounds. The Patil's may be of muggle Hindu descent and Cho Chang's family could be Buddist. It would be nice to either see some cultural diversity--not just in names and visual descriptions but in personal practices--or to hear an explanation of the Hogwarts or wizarding world view of religion... But of course that could ban the books couldn't it! From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 04:10:52 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010807041052.46290.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23771 --- "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > : waves hand in air, takes haggridd's bet. > I wager a 1st ed GoF that book 7 will not end > without draco having > previously done 1 good and redeemable thing. > And I move for amanda and angela boyko to serve as > determinors. > > Real-To: "Haggridd" > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > Here is a question that I've been toying with for > some time -- might > > Lucius end up reforming. > > > > > Wouldn't be interesting if Lucius reforms and > Draco goes off the > deep > > end? > > > > Marcus > As for Draco, that rotten apple > doesn't fall far > from the tree. Neither will turn out to be good. > Anybody care to > wager on it? We will know all in about three or > four years? > Something small, like the winner's choice of > paperback book? Any > takers? > > Haggridd I'll join in that one, only mine will be on Draco pulling a Snape personally. Paperpack of choice is good for me. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 7 04:15:34 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 04:15:34 -0000 Subject: Religious Diversity in the wizarding world In-Reply-To: <9knoaf+vkf0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knq16+3b67@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23772 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., toomanyideas at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > > Margaret Dean wrote: "...Hogwarts celebrates Muggle holidays such > as > > Christmas and Halloween." > > > But of course that could ban the books couldn't it! Not if WB has anything to say about it. (A dilemna for liberals? One of their favorite bete noires, corporate commercialism run amuck, stands athwart History crying Stop! at their other favorite bete noire, reactionary monotheistic religionisms.) - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 7 04:19:24 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 04:19:24 -0000 Subject: HP Filks Site Now Online Message-ID: <9knq8c+jaqg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23773 I'm proud to announce the premiere of a new website devoted exclusively to HP filks: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm The filks, which all first were offered on HP4GU, are the creations of Pippin, Lisa I., Angela Boyko, and You-Know-Who. We have over 120 filks now available, and we will continue to expand. Your comments appreciated! - CMC From devajones55d at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 05:02:18 2001 From: devajones55d at yahoo.com (devajones55d at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 05:02:18 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy Message-ID: <9knsoq+vdpn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23774 Here is a question that I've been toying with for some time -- might Lucius end up reforming. I am not saying for a second that he is not a pure-blood snob, but it didn't stop him from admitting in front of Draco and the shop keeper that Hermione beat the snot out of Draco accademically. So, here we have a guy who is mean and nasty and is in good with the status quo. With Voldemort's return, he has now been reduced to being a toady of a psycho. What are his thoughts? Wouldn't be interesting if Lucius reforms and Draco goes off the deep end? Marcus Hello, I've been lurking around this list for awhile now, but this topic is just too tempting to pass up. While I don't think that Lucius will become "good," I think he could turn against LV. An interesting point was brought up in a fanfic I read by Soz at ff.net. (Sorry Soz, if you're out there. I'm a coward when it comes to posting on the internet; that's why I don't review. This is the first step toward getting over that.) Anyway, the scenario was that Lucius discovers Voldemort's heritage and, because he _is_ a "pure-blood snob," immediately begins plotting to overthrow LV and to take over as the head of the DEs. This is rather like Marcus's point that he may not want to be "a toady of a psycho"; he doesn't want to be the toady of a Mudblood. This made a lot of sense to me, and I'm interested to see what other people think. Do you think the DEs knows that LV is a Mudblood? Would this information make Lucius, or any of the other DEs, turn against LV? I realize Pettigrew knows the truth, but he's so frightened by LV that I don't think LV would count him as a threat. All LV says once all of the DEs are present is "My father's bone, naturally, meant that we would have to come here, where he was buried" (GoF chap. 33). Is he trying to avoid admitting he's a Mudblood? Or is even having everyone come to a Muggle cemetery a giveaway? Personally, I believe that LV would try to hide his heritage. I refuse to believe that he's stupid, and he has to realize that people like Lucius wouldn't want to be the subordinate of a Mudblood. Unless, of course, he figures that the DEs are all so frightened of him that no one would dare plot a coup. I apologize if this topic has been covered before. Deva From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 05:04:05 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 05:04:05 -0000 Subject: Religious Diversity in the wizarding world In-Reply-To: <9knoaf+vkf0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9knss5+jadk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23775 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., toomanyideas at a... wrote: > It would be nice to either see some cultural diversity--not > just in names and visual descriptions but in personal practices--or to > hear an explanation of the Hogwarts or wizarding world view of > religion... But of course that could ban the books couldn't it! I'm not sure it would cause them to be banned, but she would have to be careful. Can you imagine if she made him one sect or the other? You could create problems of young fans wanting to be just like their hero. You might even have the leaders of that sect reacting to being associated with witchcraft. So I doubt he will be anything except perhaps a generic Christian. Marcus From r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 05:12:28 2001 From: r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com (r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 05:12:28 -0000 Subject: Wormtail as Gollum (was What HP Character Scares You Most?) In-Reply-To: <002501c11eb5$3e359f60$d8b191d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <9kntbs+a5b7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23776 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachelle Elliott" wrote: > "When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a bond between them" - Dumbledore > "I don't want a bond with Pettigrew. He betrayed my parents!" - Harry > "This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable. But trust me ... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life." - Dumbledore > It is almost as JKR is foreshadowing that Wormtail is scum but, he will do something to save Harry's life. Maybe I am a wishful thinker. But then again, this is a series for children. ;) I believe Wormtail will do something to save Harry's life, or even more, to save the world. Maybe this is obvious, but does the above quote by Dumbledore remind anyone else of what Gandalf said about Gollum in Lord of the Rings? I believe it was Frodo (sorry, very rusty on LOTR) who had the chance to kill Gollum, but didn't, and Gandalf said almost exactly the same thing about Gollum that Dumbledore said about Wormtail. Gollum then goes on to (inadvertently) destroy the Ring when Frodo loses his nerve. And so saves the world. But in reality, it is Frodo's act of mercy towards Gollum that ultimately saves the world. Red Queen P.S. And when Gollum takes the ring from Frodo, doesn't he do it by biting off one of Frodo's fingers? Hmmmmmm. From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 7 05:25:20 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 05:25:20 -0000 Subject: Male Veela, Malfoy(s), Snape/DADA, New Teachers Message-ID: <9knu40+qvu5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23777 Male Veela: Mel Gibson, Harrison Ford, Sean Connery ... nuff said. Malfoy(s): Draco does have a chance of redemption, because he hasn't really done anything truly bad. Yeah, we all loath him because he is our hero's arch-enemy, but the practical jokes and taunting aren't truly evil things to do. Hell, I taunt my co-workers on a daily basis and they don't think *I'm* evil ... well, bad example ... anyway, he hasn't tortured or killed any muggles or . If he sees the way things really are, Voldie uses people and they don't really get their own power, he may see the error of his ways and see his way to the good guys side. Lucius, OTOH, is set in his dark and evil ways. He is a DE and returned to Voldie when he called the DE's back to him. He'll go back to the muggle torture, just to stay in VOldie's good graces. Of course, he'll be careful to be masked and disguised so no one in the MoM finds out who he is (until later on when our Hero's unmask him) in order to maintain his social standing. I think this will actually benefit Voldie as well, as he will have a good connection to the MoM. Snape/DADA: I think, and this is just my personal theory, Dumbledore planted the theory that Snape wants the DADA job, just in case all heck breaks loose. If all the students think Snape wants the DADA job and he is an evil kinda guy, it would be easier for outsiders (read this: DE's) to believe that he is a bad guy, just at Hogwart's to infiltrate and stab Dumbledore in the back. SO Snape goes along with this act and just never says that he is perfectly happy as the Potions Master, in fact, this is what he prefers to do. New Teachers: Hmmm ... there has been loads of speculation who the new teacher will be. IIRC, somewhere JKR said one of Harry's peers will be a/the teacher. To me, Harry's peers would include those in his year, those 1 year behind and 1 year ahead of him. These are the people Harry would more likely hang out with, thus making them his peers, or at least that's how I learned the word. However, being the 4th Champion for the Tri-Wizard (can we call it the Quad-Wizard Cup?) Cup, his peer group started to include much older students (well, not much older, but when I was 14, 18 looked like a lifetime away), such as Viktor, Fleur, and Cedric. Well, we can sadly count Cedric out as coming back to be a teacher. Viktor, it seems, has another year left. I base this on the conversation he and Harry(?) had about who the new headmaster at Durmstrang would be. Fleur it seems is done with school, as she said she wanted to come back to ... Hogwart's(?), maybe Hogsmeade? ... to get a job and practise her English. Then, of course, we have the folks that have already left school recently, Oliver Wood, Angelina, etc. Well, then you have to consider what "Harry's peers" really means. Now I have stretched it to include Fleur, Viktor and Cedric ... I think perhaps we could stretch it a little more to Include Bill and Charlie Weasley. After all, they aren't "really" considered to be adults ... they are just more of Ron's brothers. As a curse breaker for Gringott's, BIll would probably be a pretty good DADA teacher, and we know we'll need one of those. And who knows how long Hagrid's journey to visit his mother will take, if he's not back by the beginning of term, Charlie, the dragon guru, would be a great Care of Magical Creatures teacher. I think the more likely candidate would be Bill. He's shown himself to be quite willing to help Dumbledore out, and I don't think anything wierd (Dark Lord's inhabiting their head, them being smarmy dumbsh*ts, or someone other than who they looked like ... Lupin was the only one I would have liked to have seen stay) could happen to the DADA teacher while someone we already know is fairly normal is the teacher. Just my 2 or 3 knuts ... well, it's pretty long, so maybe 3 or 4 knuts :) Michelle <----who can't wait until she has a job that doesn't force her to be awake all night ... oh wait, I do, starting next Friday! :) From catlady at wicca.net Tue Aug 7 05:47:48 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:47:48 -0700 Subject: Afterlife - Warlock - Stag - Chapter Summary - Triwizard Cup - Veela Message-ID: <3B6F8104.77668932@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23778 Amy Z wrote: > JKR has said that the happiest people don't become > ghosts; what then does happen to them? 'the next great adventure' Gwyneth wrote: > What's a Warlock? > What makes a Warlock different from a Wizard? Because > Dumbledore is Head Warlock or something-like-that, > is he a Warlock? So can a Warlock be a Wizard? Are > all warlocks wizards? Are all wizards warlocks? Can > a witch be a warlock? What is a warlock? Gwendolyn Grace replied: > So I humbly submit that the explanation is as > simple as "warlock" is a specifically male term, > "witch" is a specifically female term, and > "wizard" is a more-or-less male term but that > can be loosely applied to both genders. (snip) > BTW, Gwyneth, Dumbledore is "Supreme Mugwump," The Hogwarts letterhead says: "HOGWARTS SCHOOL of WITCHCRAFT and WIZARDRY Headmaster: ALBUS DUMBLEDORE (Order of Merlin, First Class, Grand Sorc., Chf. Warlock, Supreme Mugwump, International Confed. of Wizards) I understand that to mean that Dumbledore is O.M. 1st class Grand Sorcerer (like Order of the British Empire, Knight Commander) and he is also Supreme Mugwump of the International Confederation of Wizards. I imagine that in this case we can forget all the political meanings of Mugwump, in regard to Abolition, Presidential election of James G. Blaine, etc, and go by its original meaning "big chief", and go on to imagine that Supreme Mugwump is the title they give to to people whom us Muggles would call something like Secretary-General Emeritus. The title Chf. Warlock is there on the letterhead and I have little idea what it means: I don't even have a theory whether it is one of his ranks/offices in International Confederation of Wizards. But 'what does "warlock" mean in the Potterverse?" is my usual answer for what would I ask JKR if I could ask her one question. Most recently in my post #23508, where I said: Note to people in the Muggleverse: 'warlock' doesn't mean 'oathbreaker' in the Potterverse, or Ernie MacMillan wouldn't describe himself as descended from nine generations of witches and warlocks and Quidditch wouldn't be called 'the noble sport of warlocks'. That genealogy sounds as if 'warlock' was a synonym for 'wizard' but it seems terribly redundant to have two words that mean exactly the same, so I like the theory that 'warlock' means a Member of Parliament, I mean a Representative to the Wizards' Council, Warlocks' Convocation, International [Con]Federation of Wizards/Warlocks, and so on. Perkins (Arthur's subordinate) being 'an old warlock' could mean that he was a Representative who got voted out, so his old friends got him a civil service job where he is protected by his friends from ever getting a bad performance review. Also, it could be linked to 'warlock' meaning 'oathbreaker' by reference to campaign promises. Which leads to second question: are International Confederation/Federation of Wizards/Warlocks (Steve's Lexicon lists the three names JKR used) different organizations or different names for the same organization? I prefer the latter. Mindy wrote: > If James Potter turned into a Stag, then how > on earth did he fit into the Whomping Willow > tree to join Lupin the werewolf every month? > He'd be noticed in no time -- a dog or rat > can be unnoticed but not a STAG! Any answers? Being noticed would hardly be a problem for James Potter: he had the Invisibility Cloak. He could remain under the clock until he was in tunnel and transform there and go the rest of the way in stag form, if the stag wouldn't fit into the tunnel, he could wait by the Whomping Willow for the other three to come out, waiting in stag form but covered by the Invisibility Cloak. Susanna Pigwidgeon37 wrote: > Question 11: I cannot get rid of the thought > that some of the less important characters, and > especially Lockhart, are caricatures of very real > and unpleasant persons JKR met and couldn't resist > to have her little revenge on. What do you think? IIRC JKR has said in interviews that Lockhart is based on a real person but she's not going to tell who. Someone on list suggested that Lockhart is based on her ex-husband, and I find that extremely plausible. > Question 12: Do you think that Lockhart's way of > presenting himself as The- One- Who- Always- Knows- > Best is a result of stupidity combined with > selfishness and conceit, Yes. He seems to have been convinced by his own propaganda. It would be amazingly stupid as a strategy because he keeps getting proved wrong right away. > Is he a Slytherin? OF COURSE. His ambition obviously is to be famous, to be admired, to be doted on by old ladies, and to make some money from his books. He stops at nothing to achieve that ambition, including trying to leave a young student (Ginny) to die. Elizabeth smurfs wrote: > A question I do have about the Cup however, is: > Did Harry ever get to keep the Cup? I do not > remember it being mentioned. I had the impression (based on some real-life competitions, not on the text) that the Cup would be housed in the Trophy Room of the winning school until it was won by another school. Martin Hooper wrote: > I was wondering if anyone had any theory's/ideas > about what veela's are? Sofie wrote: > P.S (Are their male Veela? Because they aren't > mentioned. If not how do they breed, or do real > Veela (as opposed to half Veela) live forever?) As several people have mentioned, vila are real folklore from the Balkans (and IIRC also from Russia), altho' they are called by a variety of names: nereid and rusalka in Greece for example. They live in the woods or underwater. If men go into the woods at night, vila lure them into dancing with them and dance them to death, if either men or children gaze too long into bodies of water, a vila will rise up enough to hug them affectionately -- and drag them underwater to drown. I imagine that the former story was told by wives to husbands to try to discourage them from being seduced by young beauties from other villages, and the latter story was told by mothers to their children to try to discourage them from playing near bodies of water where they might fall in and drown. Vila turn into swans and fly away by putting on their swan skins. If a man is clever enough that he steals a vila's swan skin (while she had taken it off to dance) instead of being embraced by her, then she has to marry him and keep his house and bear his children until she is able to steal back her swan skin, whereupon she puts it on and flies away home. This swan stuff is supposed to have supplied the plots for ballets like Swan Lake. It also is overwhelmingly reminiscent of a zillion Irish tales about selkies. There are no male veelas in the real folklore. There, veelas are suggested to be the spirits of girls who died unmarried and childless. Because they became spirits without having used their fertility for child-bearing, they still have that fertility and therefore are invoked/honored as fertility spirits at various agricultural festivals and at weddings. JKR's veelas probably are NOT ghosts. They could be an all-female species if they grew on trees (or if they reproduced by parthenogenesis like certain species of anole lizard in real life). They could be the females of a species whose males look nothing like them -- who maybe look like hideously dwarves and spend most of their time underground mining for gold and jewels. If the males and the females were all that different from each other, they might get together only once or twice a year, for purposes of reproduction, at some kind of big orgy ... like Beltane? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L echerous A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Aug 7 06:02:51 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 06:02:51 -0000 Subject: Christmas&Halloween, New teacher, Most Scary Character,Lucius&Snape, Dark Souls Message-ID: <9ko0ab+dhk9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23779 Hi everybody, After a period of relative lurkdom (I've got hooked by fanfiction- need I say more?) I'd like to write a really, really long post about the topics covered recently: Christmas & Halloween: Actually, Christmas is never "celebrated" in the religious sense: There are presents and Christmas trees, that's all. And the food is on even higher gastronomic standard, including traditional elements, like turkey and Christmas pudding. And that's it. IMO, these elements don't indicate any religious preference, more so as the Christmas tree is, as has already been observed, an originally pagan symbol that has made its way into Christian religion. And I think that Christmas and easter holidays merely serve the purpose of sending the students home when the Muggle students are at home as well- to avoid questions from the neighbours like "Oh, Mrs Finnigan, I've been wondering which school Seamus attends, as he's always coming home at such odd times!" The person close to Harry that will become a teacher: Nice at it would be to see Neville teaching, I think that we will actually see the person teaching and so it can't be him, being in the same year as Harry etc. It must be one of the older students or somebody who has already graduated. My shuddering guess is Percy- he might have trouble at the ministry in the near future and Dumbledore might offer him this possibility. Would be bad, as he' my choice for The Most scary character: frankly, he scares me more than Peter Pettigrew. Along with Barty Crouch Sr., he is one of those persons who in the name of law and order would do anything. I was rather impressed by what Ron said about Percy being able to throw the whole family into Azkaban if he thought they deserved it. I see a major crisis between Arthur and Percy coming along. Lucius likes Snape: Sorry, I've forgotten whose post this was in, but it's fairly recent. Now honestly, I don't think of two DEs "liking" each other. Being a DE automatically excludes such feelings as love and respect. I mean, they aren't co- workers and I don't see them going for a post slaughter drink, chatting amicably about ways to hold your wand while doing the Cruciatus Curse. Rosmerta wrote: Message-ID: <20010807065859.59069.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23780 --- devilsangel0809 at aol.com wrote: >It's worth expulsion for a couple >reasons. It was the parents >responsibility to punish them about >the car (the howler), but the part >that is worth expulsion is the fact >that they 1) Highly emabarrassed the >school and 2) They were careless >enough to be seen by muggles. The MoM should have dealt with the boys because they were seen by Muggles as they were violating Wizarding law, not school rules. As for the 'embarassed the school' reason, here in the US, the boys could've, & probably would've, sued if they had been expelled for something that had **absolutely nothing to do with the breaking of school rules & didn't happen on school property**. I know I would have. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 07:29:36 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 00:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <9knlg0+9emo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010807072936.61139.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23781 --- smurfs143143 at aol.com wrote: >I believe Malfoy has put up a "facade" >in the last four books, which is now >ready to come down. Malfoy has long wore the facade but it's of a brave strong person. Like most bullies, though, he's actually a MUCH worse coward than Neville. He was afraid to go into the Forbidden Forest (PS), then ran screaming in the Unicorn scene (PS), wasn't too cocky when he & Harry were alone in the air (PS), and he ran from Harry's head (PoA). Draco is a coward. I'm not sure he'd have the guts to stand up to Voldemort. Neville does. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 07:49:35 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 00:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Binns Message-ID: <20010807074935.63164.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23782 Could Binns have been AKed while he slept and that's why he became a ghost? Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Aug 7 09:07:45 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 05:07:45 -0400 Subject: Sorting Hat: question and nitpick leading to Calvinism Message-ID: <09DCB5D4.5303C065.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23783 "Milz" wrote: >The Sorting Hat looks into a person and places that person into the >house that most closely matches his characteristics. Harry is an >exception because he persuaded the Sorting Hat to do otherwise. To me, this is one of the crucial questions: is Harry an exception here? Are most students passive, or does the SH always somehow provoke a debate leading to a negotiated choice? >But >the Sorting Hat picked up on Harry's Slytherin-like qualities first. > Amanda has already pointed out that it was *Harry* who started by saying 'Not Slytherin'. (You are not alone, Amanda, I started this before reading your rant and so am now able to de-rant this. Thank you.) The Hat's apparent indecision illuminates the Calvinism debate, too. It could just be pretending, for the sake of Harry's education, knowing all along it was going to put him in Gryffindor. Or it could be offering him a genuine choice - by thinking out loud, it provokes him into expressing a preference, and it would, after questioning that preference to make sure it's strongly held or well-founded, follow it. If the opportunity to join Slytherin was genuine, how would it have played out? There's a fanfic here: Harry and Draco not only defeat Quirrell/Voldemort at the end of their first year, but they destroy V as well, and the rest of their time at Hogwarts is spent combating the evil schemes of the Dark Ravenclaw witch Hermione Granger. David, in Arminian mode __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Aug 7 09:42:26 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 05:42:26 -0400 Subject: Snape after the DADA job Message-ID: <1BBB43DB.735E1029.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23784 Amanda Lewanski wrote: >I don't know about the last bit, but Percy was the first to mention it, >and told Harry and Ron something like "everyone knows Snape is after the >Defense Against the Dark Arts job." But this is precisely my point. All >we actually know is that "everyone" knows this. We have no evidence that >it is the truth, from Snape, Dumbledore, or anyone. It's just a rumor, >so skillfully intwined and reinforced that most of us think, yeah, Snape >wants it. But we don't have anything to go on but the rumorings of >students. > And one of my favourite Tripe style bits: (quoting from memory) Harry: Some people reckon Snape would do anything to get the dark arts job Lupin: (drinks werewolf potion, makes face): Disgusting So what is disgusting? The potion, the rumour, or Snape? What does Lupin know? David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Aug 7 10:08:26 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:08:26 -0000 Subject: Lucius & Voldemort, Snape & DADA Message-ID: <9koemq+mmo1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23785 Fyregirl wrote: Message-ID: <9kofrr+tbmp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23786 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" > wrote: > > : waves hand in air, takes haggridd's bet. > > I wager a 1st ed GoF that book 7 will not end without draco having > > previously done 1 good and redeemable thing. > > And I move for amanda and angela boyko to serve as determinors. > > > Heidi, that is not exactly what I wagered on. To have done one good > thing is not at all the same thing as to turn out to be good. Nice > try, clever lady, but no cigar. I would define "turning out to > be good" as renouncing LV and joining the side of Dumbledore. Would > you care to rephrase, please? > > Angela Boyko and Amanda are perfectly acceptable, with Amy Z. to cast > a deciding vote in case of a tie. > (a) I said *good* and *redeemable*, which IMHO means that he does something which is good, and which is simultaneously evidence that he has chosen not to embrace evil. I cannot bet that Draco will be nice or kind or sweet or even especially friendly. Snape isn't any of those things, but the end of GoF showed pretty well that he is still truested and needed and appreciated by dumbledore. In other words, he's *good* and *redeemable*. Also, why does being good necessarily require joining Dumbledore's side? In the same way that JKR has shown that evil isn't necessarily all related to the same Bad Guy in the books (see Lockhart, who was willing to let Ginny be killed - IMHO, that was evil (although theoretically with he new mind, he isn't not necessarily anymore)) not all actions in furtherance of good have to be in support of Dumbledore. I also don't want to bet that Draco will never have the Dark Mark put on him. Again, giving Snape as an example, it's not the be-all and end-all of evil. Let's let the TrippleA's make up their mind after reading book 7 for the 2nd time as to whether Draco has done something which is good and redeemable. PS - the reason I say *one thing* is because there's a chance he'll get killed doing that One Thing... Come visit FictionAlley - fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - seven sickles an ounce! From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Aug 7 10:57:20 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 20:57:20 +1000 Subject: Simplistic evil characters, Mandrakes, men and Frodo Message-ID: <002c01c11f2f$e1f5f080$dc91aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 23787 Sofie: > Potter books weren't originally aimed at children however I'd like to > point out some things that suggest to the contrary. > > My main point is the characters. Apart from Voldemort, not a single > character could be described as entirely evil. Much that I agree with has already been said on this subject, but a couple more comments. I find that a lot of people prefer their lives simple (albeit not many of those on this list :D). They like to have good guys to cheer on and idolise, and bad guys to boo and blame. This is especially true for children, who are being taught what their society considers to be "good" and "normal", so that they can interpret other people's behaviour and guide their own. Hence all the children's stories with moral messages, demonstrating to kids that "good" behaviour is rewarded, and "bad" behaviour is punished. Unfortunately, as children grow older, they start to find out that things aren't as simple as that in real life. Bad things happen to good people, and vice versa; their heroes (starting with their parents) reveal themselves to be flawed, their villains show different sides to them which are not so clear-cut in their "badness", and so on. Hopefully, perhaps if they feel secure enough, they then start to develop a more sophisticated, differentiated, open-minded view of life, where things aren't so black and white, and you need to weigh up how you judge people depending on a much wider range of aspects (context, personal history, personality, age, sex, etc.). This does open up a much more threatening world, though: it's much easier to just chuck someone in one of a few simple boxes and treat them accordingly. As people have said, a lot of children's fiction and Hollywood films perpetuate that nice, safe, dualist world, where there are good guys and bad guys (and you know immediately which is which because the bad guys wear black and look nasty), the good guys always win, the bad guys always lose, and so on. Very comforting. Good Moral Messages, no doubt. However, IMO, the world is a complex place, people are complex, situations are complex, and being too simplistic is what leads to bigotry, narrow-mindedness and intolerance. Why not use (older) children's fiction to encourage them to recognise this complexity? On this basis, I think Voldemort the Archetypal Dark Overlord and Crabb&Goyle the Archetypal Evil Henchmen are the weakest links in the HP series. Simplistic, obvious, evil characters. OTOH, in other ways, I think JKR is doing a great job of opening kids' minds. Snape is a good example. He starts off drawn as the most obvious villain, and then later proves to be a very complex, albeit nasty, good guy. Yes kids, good people can do bad things!! Whoever wrote the summary (sorry, have now deleted original post: HP4G overwhelms my mailbox if I don't!): > Doesn't this scene tell us something about Ron? He knows that Harry has already got one warning from the MoM and will > face expulsion if he's caught doing Underage Magic another time. Is Ron selfishly trying to show off? Is he extremely impulsive? Actually, on rereading CoS, Ron takes the car because he's afraid his parents won't be able to get back through the sealed magic barrier to 9.75 (and has been longing for a good excuse to take that car for a spin!). Which makes him impulsive, yes, and a bit lacking in foresight (didn't he remember they could Apparate?). I suppose he's 12, after all. Question 13: Which part of the plant is used for potion- making? > Do they chop up the leaves or the "roots" (eurgh!!)? And if it's > the leaves, what happens to the "roots"? Sorry, but this has been > tormenting me since I first read the book. I wonder where Mandrakes sit on the Magical Creatures/Beings registry? If they're sulking as teenagers, holding parties, and trying to move into each others' pots, they sound like they're sentient to me. Which makes it a bit rough to slaughter them routinely at maturity, surely. Where's Hermione? Maybe she should start S.P.A.M. or something (Society for the Protection of Autonomous Mandrakes)... Gwyneth: > What sign of a conscience or a heart has Malfoy shown in Canon? He seems to love his mother. I wonder how JKR views love of and loyalty to family members on the evil-o-meter? After all, Crouch Snr was technically a good guy, yet threw his son to the Dementors. And then rescued him for love of his wife. And Harry was protected by his mother's love. Rosmerta: > It's a tiresome cliche, but it seems to hold mostly true in HP: women go for the tortured souls, and men, at least initially, for the sheets of platinum blonde whatever Ermm. Yes well, as a veteran of many a tortured man, I can testify that this woman at least is susceptible to the Savior complex. No doubt this is partly egotism on my part: I believe that only a fellow tortured, labyrinthine soul could possibly have the insight to understand me. Nice, simple, ordinary men who follow all the rules in the generic Treat Her Right manual simply because that's what Nice Guys Do... gah, how boring and presumptuous! :D I'd rather have someone who understands me well enough to chuck out the manual and interact with me honestly as a unique individual. So there. I also remember a quote from some film or TV program somewhere which said "Men's stupidity comes from here" (points at groin) "and women's stupidity comes from here" (points at heart). Quite clever, I thought. Same as the ol' maxim "There are many ways to a woman's heart, but pity's straightest". Women responding to compassion, men to testosterone? There's certainly more than a couple of grains of truth in that, in my experience. Then there's some women's weakness for the adorably vulnerable bumbler. I'm thinking about inventing this fledgling psychological test which judges people by their feelings about Hugh Grant and Madonna. So many men I know *despise* Hugh deeply and just can't see why women would fancy him... Red Queen: > I believe Wormtail will do something to save Harry's life, or even more, to save the world. Maybe this is obvious, but does the above quote by Dumbledore remind anyone else of what Gandalf said about Gollum in Lord of the Rings? I believe it was Frodo (sorry, very rusty on LOTR) who had the chance to kill Gollum, but didn't, and Gandalf said almost exactly the same thing about Gollum that Dumbledore said about Wormtail. Gollum then goes on to (inadvertently) destroy the Ring when Frodo loses his nerve. And so saves the world. But in reality, it is Frodo's act of mercy towards Gollum that ultimately saves the world. P.S. And when Gollum takes the ring from Frodo, doesn't he do it by biting off one of Frodo's fingers? Hmmmmmm.< Ooo, well spotted, as JKR would say! I like this. Gollum is by far the most interesting character in LOTR. Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eyegrrl at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 10:51:14 2001 From: eyegrrl at earthlink.net (Chris) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 05:51:14 -0500 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9kn6ab+4mbk@eGroups.com> References: <9kn2ib+cafk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010807054531.00ab64a0@127.0.0.1> No: HPFGUIDX 23788 Do to the recent thread of "why did you start reading the HP books" I was very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, surprised you the most. I am asking because I have passed the books on to a few people and its very interesting to see what exactly caught them offguard. Tom Riddle is Voldemort, Cedric, etc... For myself, I would have to say that the Lupin is a werewolf story was the one that caught me by suprise the most, even more so than Scabbers is Peter, which was a shock, but I kept coming back to, he's a werewolf?? Hopefully someone else woudl like to share. C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From birdy739 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 11:17:41 2001 From: birdy739 at hotmail.com (Kelly Shiflet) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 07:17:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] what surprised you the most? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23789 hmmmm,... good question... The scene that made me do a double take was in GoF, where Harry was in the infirmery and he had just finished telling Dumbledore all the details in the triwizard tournament. Then Mrs.Weasley embraced him in a motherly hug, and that Harry thought that it felt good, because he had never had a comforting parental hug. And I thought about it for about minute, and realized that Harry probly DIDN'T recieve something as simple as a hug from the Dursleys. JKR really did capture that moment beautifully, for it was a very touching scene. She also ended it rather abruptly with Hermione capturing Rita Skeeter. I also like the fact that JKR doesn't drag out the scenes, like soap opera's. kelly . * . (\ *** /) . * . * . * ( \(_)/ ) * . * . * . (_/| |\_) . * . * . * /_____\ * . * >From: Chris >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] what surprised you the most? >Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 05:51:14 -0500 > >Do to the recent thread of "why did you start reading the HP books" I was >very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, surprised you the >most. I am asking because I have passed the books on to a few people and >its very interesting to see what exactly caught them offguard. Tom Riddle >is Voldemort, Cedric, etc... > >For myself, I would have to say that the Lupin is a werewolf story was the >one that caught me by suprise the most, even more so than Scabbers is >Peter, which was a shock, but I kept coming back to, he's a werewolf?? > >Hopefully someone else woudl like to share. > >C > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 12:04:54 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 12:04:54 -0000 Subject: Draco's Redemption Was Re: Lucius Malfoy In-Reply-To: <3B6F51E2.341D92CE@texas.net> Message-ID: <9kolh6+sb9u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23790 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: I'm not cutting Draco any slack, like > giving him loads of credit for some weenie little measly deed just > because, in comparison to his usual behavior, it's like walking on > water. I have a feeling that Draco will (for lack of a better phrase) Do a good deed, similar to Snape trying to save Harry at that Quidditch match when his broom went haywire... I suppose just to prove he is not all that bad? Or maybe because he finally realises he has to do the right thing... I see a window of opportunity for his redemption in future books... Meg Rose From usergoogol at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 12:24:00 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 12:24:00 -0000 Subject: Mundungus Fletcher Message-ID: <9koml0+t0oe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23791 That name doesn't sound very appealing now does it? Hmm... at any rate, I have something more important to tell you. (At least, as important as fictional characters get.) Mundungus Fletcher, who was part of the "old crowd" mentioned in GoF, was also mentioned in CoS! Page 38, to be specific. Interestingly, Fletcher's home was raided for possesing enchanted muggle things. Here's the entire quote, just so I can present the important information unbiasedly. "What a night," he [Mr. Weasley] mumbled, groping for the teapot as they all sat down around them. "Nine raids. Nine! And old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put a hex on me when I had my back turned....." Mr Weasley took a long gulp of tea and sighed. "Find anything, Dad?" said Fred eagerly. "All I got were a few shrinking door keys and a biting kettle," yawned Mr. Weasley. "There was some pretty nasty stuff that wasn't my department though. Mortlake was taken away for questioning about some pretty odd ferrets, but that's the Commitee on Experimental Charms, thank goodness...." "Why would anyone bother making door keys shrink?" said George. "Just muggle baiting," sighed Mr. Weasley. "Sell them a key that keeps shrinking to nothing so that they can never find it when they need it......" From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 7 12:50:02 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 12:50:02 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010807054531.00ab64a0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <9koo5q+ata0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23792 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris wrote: " I was > very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, surprised you the > most. > > For myself, I would have to say that the Lupin is a werewolf story was the > one that caught me by suprise the most No question for me: it was when Lupin embraced Sirius Black. - CMC From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Tue Aug 7 13:03:02 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 09:03:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23793 Deva wrote: > > I've been lurking around this list for awhile now, but this topic is > just too tempting to pass up. Welcome, Deva! > > While I don't think that Lucius will become "good," I think he could > turn against LV. An interesting point was brought up in a fanfic I > read by Soz at ff.net. (Sorry Soz, if you're out there. I'm > a coward > when it comes to posting on the internet; that's why I don't > review. This is the first step toward getting over that.) Anyway, > the scenario was that Lucius discovers Voldemort's heritage and, > because he _is_ a "pure-blood snob," immediately begins plotting to > overthrow LV and to take over as the head of the DEs. This is rather > like Marcus's point that he may not want to be "a toady of a psycho"; > he doesn't want to be the toady of a Mudblood. You do have a point here re: toadying to someone who isn't of pure wizarding blood, although Voldy isn't a Mudblood, he's *half and half* to use Seamus FInnegan's explanation. And I am not sure that makes a huge amount of difference to some of the radically-pure-blood snobs, but it very well might. I mean, for example, Draco hasn't said anything nasty to Harry about his mum being muggleborn, or to Seamus for being half-and-half - and he's certainly had the opportunity. > > This made a lot of sense to me, and I'm interested to see what other > people think. Do you think the DEs knows that LV is a Mudblood? I am looking for Gwendolyn Grace to chime in on this one, because we've had some very interesting discussions of when Lucius and Tom Riddle became acquainted. In my backstory for Surfeit of Curses (in which the Malfoys own the Daily Prophet), I've devised a chronology where Riddle works for the paper in the PR & advertising department after graduating from Hogwarts, and meets a young Lucius then - and Lucius *knows* that Riddle's father was a muggle. It's also possible that the Malfoys are, and have always been, Kingmakers - in other words, the people who never want to take the throne themselves, for various reasons, but want to be the power behind the throne - and have a lot of control over the "king". In GoF, I didn't see any toadying by Lucius to Voldemort, and Voldemort called Lucius by his first name, a "consideration" he didn't show to anyone else. It seems evident to me that Lucius is no ordinary Death Eater... From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Aug 7 13:39:29 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 13:39:29 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? & Hugh Grant In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010807054531.00ab64a0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <9kor2h+mn02@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23794 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris wrote: > Do to the recent thread of "why did you start reading the HP books" I was very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, surprised you the most.> Call me a sucker, but I was surprised by everything, even Quirrell. For my first read, I am always just along for the ride. I think I'll be reading quite differently when OoP comes out, but that is also due to the insights people have shared here. Oddly enough, though, I knew the ending of "The Sixth Sense" almost right away. On another note, Tabouli - just for the record, I absolutely abhor Hugh Grant. His annoying bumbling and stumbling drives me nuts. --jenny from ravenclaw, who was so glad Colin Firth won the girl in "Bridget Jones's Diary" **************************************** From naama_gat at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 14:44:52 2001 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 14:44:52 -0000 Subject: Who sent the Valentine? (long) In-Reply-To: <7C1D3DBF.19C84E3D.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kout4+iujc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23795 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: Sorry to be so dense, but why is it unlikely that Ginny had sent the Valentine? Possibly I've missed things in previous posts but on the face of it, it seems extremely likely to me (in fact, I'm sure of it). It is specifically said that she sent Harry a get well card she had made herself (it sang shrilly and Harry had to put it under something to make it stop). My impression of her attitude to Harry is of a fairly obvious crush (everybody knows of it, after all, so it must be obvious). It makes perfect sense that she would the person who would send him a Valentine and compose the verse herself. It's precisely what an eleven year old would do for her object of hero worship. Naama, who finds that she really loves Ginny From maribelpotter at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 14:49:20 2001 From: maribelpotter at hotmail.com (Maribel Rios) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 14:49:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] what surprised you the most? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23796 In GoF, when Harry gets the Portkey and all about the Priori Incantatem. It was a real shock! Maribel, from Gryffindor. _________________________________________________________________ Descargue GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer en http://explorer.msn.es/intl.asp From margdean at erols.com Tue Aug 7 14:12:50 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:12:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's Redemption References: <20010807072936.61139.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B6FF762.AC5B6B00@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23797 Kelly Hurt wrote: > Malfoy has long wore the facade but it's of a brave strong person. > Like most bullies, though, he's actually a MUCH worse coward than > Neville. He was afraid to go into the Forbidden Forest (PS), then ran > screaming in the Unicorn scene (PS), wasn't too cocky when he & Harry > were alone in the air (PS), and he ran from Harry's head (PoA). > > Draco is a coward. I'm not sure he'd have the guts to stand up to > Voldemort. Neville does. Kelly, I think you're really onto something here. Yes, Draco is a coward, and his facade is "I'm not scared and I don't care." The final part of that is what produces that very nasty line about Cedric that gets him blasted at the end of GoF, as well as the taunting of Hermione at the Quidditch World Cup. "=I= don't need to be scared, you do -- I'm on the side that's going to win, and therefore they won't of course hurt =me.=" It even fits in with the Buckbeak incident, if you think about it; I'll bet Draco was scared spitless of the hippogriff and, again, was trying to cover it up by saying something very superior and nonchalant. Given that, I suspect that his jealousy of Harry stems very much from what he sees of Harry's courage. When does he most gleefully taunt Harry? When Harry faints in reaction to the Dementors, which =looks= like fear. The whole fake-Dementor trick was, again, intended to make Harry show fear (and boy did THAT backfire!). Therefore I suspect that Draco's redemption, if it happens at all, will take the form of Draco finally acknowledging his terror of what Voldemort and the Death Eaters are doing, and running to Harry and his friends for protection. (Or possibly to Snape? That would be an interesting twist.) Kind of like a Pettigrew in reverse . . . --Margaret Dean From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 14:56:14 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 14:56:14 -0000 Subject: Who sent the Valentine? (long) In-Reply-To: <9kout4+iujc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kovie+8lp3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23798 Ginny sent the valentine. She's an independent young woman who knows what she wants and goes after it. (However, since she's only 11, it's not the perfect effort you'd get from someone ten years older but she's trying.) From naama_gat at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:00:29 2001 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 15:00:29 -0000 Subject: Hebrew Translation of CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9kovqd+100ii@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23799 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., BrownieH6 at a... wrote: > I wonder, though, how people would know how to pronounce that in > Hebrew...most books are printed without vowels, IIRC. But that's only > because everyone knows what words sound like what... > > As far as I recall, the name was vowelized (is that a word?) although most of the text wasn't. Naama From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 15:00:57 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 15:00:57 -0000 Subject: -snip- men and Frodo In-Reply-To: <002c01c11f2f$e1f5f080$dc91aecb@price> Message-ID: <9kovr9+86je@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23800 > > It's a tiresome cliche, but it seems to hold mostly true in HP: women go for the tortured souls, and men, at least > initially, for the sheets of platinum blonde whatever > > Ermm. Yes well, as a veteran of many a tortured man, I can testify that this woman at least is susceptible to the Savior complex. No doubt this is partly egotism on my part: I believe that only a fellow tortured, labyrinthine soul could possibly have the insight to understand me. Nice, simple, ordinary men who follow all the rules in the generic Treat Her Right manual simply because that's what Nice Guys Do... gah, how boring and presumptuous! :D I'd rather have someone who understands me well enough to chuck out the manual and interact with me honestly as a unique individual. So there. Marcus: I've seen it quoted a number of times that women like to view their future mates as home-improvement projects. It gets them into trouble when love doesn't conquer all. > > Gollum then goes on to (inadvertently) destroy the Ring when Frodo > loses his nerve. And so saves the world. But in reality, it is > Frodo's act of mercy towards Gollum that ultimately saves the world. > > Gollum is by far the most interesting character in LOTR. > > Tabouli. Well, you could also say that it was originally Bilbo's pity that saved the world. And near the end, Sam pities him and lets him go. As to the most interesting character in LOTR, I would vote for Eowyn, myself. I get spine-tingling goosebumps every time I read her confrontation with the Nazgul king. I am so looking forward to the movie version of that scene! Marcus From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 14:59:21 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 14:59:21 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9kovo9+judn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23801 That once he got the Mirror of Erised out of his system and received the book of photos from Hagrid, Harry seemed to lose interest in finding out as much as possible about his family. This still surprises me. From john at walton.to Sun Aug 5 02:23:19 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 22:23:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Calvinism; Afterlife In-Reply-To: <9khrb2+348r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23802 Amy Z said: > I imagine you will get your wish. I don't think the final book is > going to be called "Harry Potter and the Sulfurous Pit," nor "Harry > Potter and the Choirs of Angels," For the former, I dare say we'd have another situation like PS/SS -- the UK edition would be "Harry Potter and the Sulphurous Pit" and the US edition would be "Harry Potter and the Sulfurous Pit". --Rock A. Hardslab, For the League Of Obsessed Nitwits In Eastern Seaboard Towns (LOONIEST) ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to "Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun The frumious Bandersnatch!" --Lewis Carroll, "The Jabberwocky" ________________________________ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:41:56 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 15:41:56 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9koo5q+ata0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kp284+3bma@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23803 Chris wrote: >I was very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, surprised > you the > > most. CMC wrote: > No question for me: it was when Lupin embraced Sirius Black. I think that was the biggest shock for me too. I had no clue what was going on. #2 was probably the Cup being a Portkey. Sure, I knew Harry was going to get attacked by the end of the book, but I just didn't see that coming at all. I was all caught up in the emotional drama of Harry and Cedric and then bang, we're in a showdown with Voldemort (another reason Cedric's death was such a shock--my mind was still back in the Tournament, even though as soon as they landed in the graveyard I thought I knew whose the "fine old house" nearby was). Amy Z ---------------------------------------------- Snape made them all nervous, breathing down their necks while they tried to remember how to make a Forgetfulness potion. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone ---------------------------------------------- From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Aug 7 16:08:21 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:08:21 -0000 Subject: Calvinism - SB & SS - 3rd task - Playwizard - What's scary - Halloween In-Reply-To: <20010806191900.86824.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kp3pl+5ulr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23804 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Marianna Lvovsky wrote: > > But even assuming house characteristics are fixed in > the popular conscious, if Sirius was a Gryffindor or > Ravenclaw, or even Hufflepuff, his becoming LV's right > hand man, and betraying Potters, PP, and blowing up a > street are not signs that he isn't true to his house. > If only characterisitcs of bravery, cleverness, > loyalty are imprinted, his actions are not > inconsistent with any of those. I think we are making > a mental leap assuming more (Gryff are good, Rave are > good, Huff are good). > That's correct. We are making a mental leaps that certain houses are "good" and certain houses are "bad". There have been many discussions on this list concerning Sirius' House based upon Hagrid's SS/PS comment that all dark wizards were in Slytherin. So if members of this list categorize Houses as "good" and "bad", then what more can we expect of the fictional characters in the books? Again, I think the wizarding community uses the House System as one way to size up a person's qualities. I don't think the general wizarding population would be surprized to learn of an ambitious Slytherin quickly ascending the corporate ladder ("Of course, he became the youngest CEO at Specter Corps. He was in Slytherin.")The closest example I can think of is the Kennedy family. William Kennedy Smith is running for some Congressional seat. I don't think anyone says "That's unusual. He's a physician. Why is he interested in politics?" Most people, I assume, think "He's a Kennedy. Whaddya expect?" I think the wizarding community follows a similar mindset: "Lucius Malfoy a Death Eater!? Well, no big surprize he was in Slytherin, don't ya know." That's why I think Sirius' "crime" was incredibly shocking to the wizarding community because it went against the stereotype and it knocked a giant hole in the Sorting Hat's credibility (to a degree). > GRYFFINDOR: Brave does not mean noble. One can be a > horrible person and still be brave. A suicide bomber, > a storm trooper, a gangster are warped, horrible but > are probably brave. Sirius' being a disloyal believer > in evil would have nothing to do with his bravery. > > RAVENCLAW: The same goes for cleverness/learning. It > is a Ravenclaw characteristic, but it doesn't mean > that a Ravenclaw has to be good. Once again, Sirius > can be a perfect Ravenclaw and still murder 13 people > and betray L&J. Sirius is percieved as a clever, > bright wizard (killing 13 people with one curse is > certainly a complicated trick). And LV would certainly > want an intelligent, knowelegeable second in command. > LV can easily bribe a Ravenclaw with promises of > studies unknown in a legitimate wizard world. Tom > Riddle himself is rather Ravenclaw-like in one > respect: studied too much of the dark arts till they > absorbed him. Now, TR did it because of > domination/immortality, but I can see a purely > intellectual mind going down the same slipperly slope > (IMO Quirrell was in Ravenclaw). One can be clever, > love learning and be horrible. > > HUFFLEPUFF: Hufflepuffs are loyal, but nowhere it is > said that they have to be loyal toa good ideal. Once > again, SS were loyal to Hitler, but hopefully no one > on this list would think that they were loyal to a > good ideal. The Lestranges were undoubtedly loyal: > they went to Azkaban for their master, tried to bring > him back. The definition of loyalty. Yet, they are > loyal to ultimate evil in wizard world, and tortured > to achieve their master's ressurection. No one's > loyalty necessarily stays with one person/group > through their entire life. Sirius could have switched > his loyalties (for whatever reasons) and became loyal > to V. Loyalty does not mean openness: he did not have > to be open to L&J. So he could switch loyalty and > conceal it from L&J and do his utmost to destroy them > out of loyalty to V, and thus be a good Hufflepuff. > Assuming he really was LV's right hand man, his > behavior to LV was very loyal. > Your examples are subjectively true. And that's the point. There's a saying that "one man's terrorist is another man's patriot". If there isn't support for various organizations or movements, then they wouldn't exist. If there wasn't Muggle and Muggle-born animosity in the wizarding community, Tom Riddle would have had to work twice as hard to recruit followers. As it was, he preyed upon the pre-existing hatred and fears of the wizarding community. This doesn't mean people join various organizations strictly out of philosophy (ex. Crouch Jr. and the Lestranges). I do think some join for personal gain (ex. Lucius Malfoy) and some join out of fear (Karkaroff). But I digress. :-) > All four houses characterisitcs are neutral. we tend > to assume that Gryffs are good because it's HP house, > and so are Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff because HP and Co > seem to like them. But as above shows, this is not > necessarily true. > Correct. However, the point is that we, the readers, are practicing a form of prejudice when we go along with these assumptions that 'Hufflepuffs are duffers' or "Slytherins are corrupt" just as the characters in the books are prejudiced by the House System. Here's a system that has categorized the personalities of countless generations of magical folk. Over those years, the Houses gained certain reputations: Hufflepuff = duffers, Slytherins = corrupt, etc. Those stereotypes are deeply ingrained in the wizarding culture. Breaking set-stereotypes shakes a culture to its very core. For example, mothers in our culture are supposed to love and nurture their children. If a mother murders her children, it's very disturbing. NOt only because children were murdered, but also because the murderer is their mother, who is supposed to love and nurture them. I think Sirius' "crime" shook the wizarding community to its core as it shattered some very set notions based upon the House System. > As to why Sirius did not get a trial: that very well > might have been the very first case after LV's fall > (committed immediately after LV's fall) and the trial > system not perfected yet. Later caught DVs were tried > properly (and maybe that's why no one thought to check > SB for black mark, since there were no other DE trials > and so the MoM didn't know about it yet, but only > learned during trials) (during the struggle the Aurors > had shoot-to-kill permission). > That could be, but I would assume in a culture with various bureaucratic offices throughout the centuries, I would think they would have some sort of trial system in place. ;-)Milz From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 7 16:45:47 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:45:47 -0000 Subject: Hebrew Translation of CoS In-Reply-To: <9kovqd+100ii@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kp5vr+75ab@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23805 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., BrownieH6 at a... wrote: > > I wonder, though, how people would know how to pronounce that in > > Hebrew...most books are printed without vowels, IIRC. But that's only > > because everyone knows what words sound like what... > > > > > > As far as I recall, the name was vowelized (is that a word?) although most of the text > wasn't. The word you want is 'vocalized'. And to be on topic, in the Hebrew version, what sex is Professor Sinistra? Pippin From mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk Tue Aug 7 12:23:07 2001 From: mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 13:23:07 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape after the DADA job In-Reply-To: <1BBB43DB.735E1029.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010807132224.00a13a50@pop.freeserve.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23806 At 07/08/01 10:42, David wrote: >Harry: Some people reckon Snape would do anything to get the dark arts job > >Lupin: (drinks werewolf potion, makes face): Disgusting > >So what is disgusting? The potion, the rumour, or Snape? What does Lupin >know? I would have said that the potion was disgusting - After all we don't know what potions taste like do we??? Martin Hooper AIM: martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 http://www.crosswinds.net/~martinjh99/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From belinda at sawyertech.com Tue Aug 7 17:14:09 2001 From: belinda at sawyertech.com (belinda at sawyertech.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 17:14:09 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9kp284+3bma@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kp7l1+ail7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23807 > Chris wrote: > > >I was very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, > surprised you the most. > Moody being Crouch Jr. on Polyjuice. I *liked* Moody. All his revelations -- leaving his mom to die in prison for him, being at the World Cup -- left me with my mouth hanging open. It all worked, and the framework was there, but I never saw it coming. Belinda From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 17:31:43 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 17:31:43 -0000 Subject: Snape after the DADA job In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010807132224.00a13a50@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <9kp8lv+e3tn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23808 >>So what is disgusting? The potion, the rumour, or Snape? What does >>Lupin know? It was the potion that was disgusting; Lupin also said that it was too bad that sugar ruined it but would presumably improve the taste. Lupin knows that it is bad form to run down a fellow professor to a student of the school. It would be considered very unprofessional. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 17:45:53 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 17:45:53 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy Bet In-Reply-To: <9kofrr+tbmp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kp9gh+b294@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23809 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" > > wrote: > > > : waves hand in air, takes haggridd's bet. > > > I wager a 1st ed GoF that book 7 will not end without draco having > > > previously done 1 good and redeemable thing. > > > And I move for amanda and angela boyko to serve as determinors. re. Would > > you care to rephrase, please? > > > > Angela Boyko and Amanda are perfectly acceptable, with Amy Z. to > cast > > a deciding vote in case of a tie. > > > Let's let the TrippleA's make up their mind after reading book 7 for > the 2nd time as to whether Draco has done something which is good and > redeemable. That sounds good to me. Amy has accepted her position as "Determinor", have the others? > PS - the reason I say *one thing* is because there's a chance he'll > get killed doing that One Thing... > > If Draco dies during that "One Thing", I won't require a deathbed conversion. Dying is usually considered proof of sincerity. Haggridd From margdean at erols.com Tue Aug 7 17:10:03 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 13:10:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape after the DADA job References: <9kp8lv+e3tn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B7020EB.DCCE7BEE@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23810 mgrantwich at yahoo.com wrote: > > >>So what is disgusting? The potion, the rumour, or Snape? What does > >>Lupin know? > > It was the potion that was disgusting; Lupin also said that it was > too bad that sugar ruined it but would presumably improve the taste. > > Lupin knows that it is bad form to run down a fellow professor to a > student of the school. It would be considered very unprofessional. True, but that wouldn't necessarily prevent him saying that the =rumor= was disgusting. That would be him sticking up for Snape, in a way. "It's disgusting that people would say such things about a Hogwarts professor." I agree the remark is highly ambiguous, and I'm sure it's by design. :) --Margaret Dean From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Aug 7 17:50:18 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 13:50:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter: The Epitome of Ethics (was Rita's Scoop) Message-ID: <2BC12397.56313B35.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23811 Anita Skeeter wrote: I was sort of >banking on the fact that certainly no one would read my answers to >those questions, but ah well. and you call yourself Skeeter? > >I do agree, of course, that Rita is a very nasty piece of work. I'm >sure she'd not only have been one of the first on the scene at Di's >crash, but probably would have been indirectly involved by trying to >splatter herself on the windshield in her Animagus form. Hmm. THAT's >a theory; Rita was what caused the crash in the first place...what a >scoop. Diana knew a thing or too about manipulating the press herself. To some extent the Dis of this world are responsible for creating the Ritas >Yeah, she writes damaging things. But I confess I found them >hilarious. She has absolutely no morals or ethics, and she >editorialized her hard news stories and broke eighty-four thousand >rules and oh, sometimes I wish I could do the same. > >I live vicariously through Rita. How sad is that? > >I love her because she's absolutely a horrible person and KNOWS it >and is completely unrepentant. The world needs her. Think how much worse Fudge would be without her. At least he tries to think how his actions will play in the press which is a bit of a restraint. Imagine if Lockhart ran for Minister of Magic - she'd be needed to take him down a peg. David, wondering if Rock A. Hardslab can explain the difference between an obsessed nitwit and an obsessive nitpicker __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 18:05:12 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 18:05:12 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9kp7l1+ail7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kpako+7evk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23812 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., belinda at s... wrote: > > > Chris wrote: > > > > >I was very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, > > surprised you the most. > > > > Moody being Crouch Jr. on Polyjuice. I *liked* Moody. > Belinda That was my biggest surprise as well. JKR made Mad-Eye Moody into one of my most favorite characters, too, which further blinded me to the surprise. Haggridd From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Tue Aug 7 18:41:23 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:41:23 -0400 Subject: Lucius Malfoy (and Draco) Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05364@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 23813 Heidi wrote: > I am looking for Gwendolyn Grace to chime in on this one, > because we've had > some very interesting discussions of when Lucius and Tom Riddle became > acquainted. Well, my head has stopped spinning and I guess I can add my two knuts on this. (There are times I hate getting the digest.) Truly, Heidi and I have had some interesting conversations about Lucius (my favourite evil guy, fourth or fifth fave character). By my view of the timeline, and Draco's comments about timing in CoS, I believe Lucius's father, not Lucius, was a contemporary of Tom Riddle. Here's where my theories have NOTHING to do with canon evidence, just speculation. I don't think Lucius ever met Tom in person (in that form), but that he knew of his father's associations with Tom and a certain European wizard named Grindlewald. Note that there are some funkinesses in the timing, but Tom was a crafty and charming young man by his own admission, and after killing his folks in 1943 (thank you, Steve, for proving that one), he went off to Europe to serve and ingratiated himself pretty quickly. I think he had enough time to learn at the feet of the master, as it were, before Dumbledore and a posse of Good!Wizards saved the day. In my private universe, Lucius's father was also injured in that battle (with a bunch of other details which make no difference to the overall timeline here), but came home to a hero's welcome because, like son like father, he pretended to have been on Our Side. So when did Lucius and Riddle meet? Well, in my version of events, I believe that Lucius's father died young because of the curse/injuries he sustained in 1945, after years of lingering illness that forced li'l Lucius to grow up much faster than normal, assuming responsibilities far ahead of his time (hence some of his pressure on Draco). When his father dies (in his last year at Hogwarts), Voldemort is ready to begin building up a platform of supporters to prepare the way for his return to England. Lucius is one of the first he contacts, drawing on his relationship with his old school mate, Malfoy Sr. (rip), to overawe the kid and make a healthy, lasting impression on him. In short, we have a substitute father and something of hero worship from young Lucius. At 17 and just losing his father, he's in a vulnerable position which V can easily exploit. Given that (albeit unsupportable) history, a lot of Lucius's behaviour makes some sense. He didn't necessarily feel he needed V anymore--perhaps the DE stuff was getting in the way of the power and prestige he was building for his own legacy to leave Draco. Perhaps he was disillusioned at the time or just as happy to be left in control of his own affairs. But when V returns, he's awe-struck and it reinforces all the feelings he transferred from his father to V at just the right time in his life. He's obsessed with immortality--one of V's self-proclaimed goals and a carrot he dangles before his followers--because he watched his father become less and less of a man, first confined to a wheelchair, then unable to stay awake for more than a few hours at a time, finally a husk of his former strength, taken away from his wife and family in what should have been the prime of life. Lucius isn't about to let that happen, and he hopes that V is wizard enough to find the secrets he promises. So I don't think he'll turn away from V, though he may have strong differences of opinion with him about how things should be done. V is a link to his father and a promise of power. I think he's a zealot, but his end goals don't necessarily agree with V. And I don't think he's foolish enough to believe that V will really extend immortality to _everyone_, but he sure as heck intends to be in the right position to get it, one way or another. Draco on the other hand (since we're on the subject sort of), has had an entirely different experience. He idolizes his father, clearly, but he's never been afraid that his parents will not be there for him. Despite Lucius's insistence that Draco make a name for himself, the grades and such, at the same time he indulges Draco a lot. I think Draco is the quintessential poor little rich kid, who usually gets whatever material thing he desires, sooner or later, but is very lacking in emotional support. This too can trace back to Lucius: he did it all on his own, because his father couldn't be there for him. Now he has this son, and he has no idea how to guide Draco other than by example. I see Lucius as someone who keeps hoping that his son will discover the secret to being influential and mature and powerful without any instruction, as if he will go to bed one night a sniveling, whiny, spoiled child, and wake up the next a charismatic young man, ready to lead and take responsibility for himself and his minions. I don't think Lucius really realises how much guidance that requires, and how much his father actually managed to communicate to him without his knowing it. I don't think Lucius realises that being a parent is more than providing material possessions, prestige, power, influence, and such. His involvement in Draco's life thus far suggests a rigid hierarchy between them. Whoever said he loves Draco and wants to see that he is taken care of is correct: yes, he loves his son, but sees him more as an extension of himself than an individual. He kicked up a fuss about Buckbeak, but had he been more involved in Draco's life on an emotional, not material, level, he might have investigated how bad it really was, rather than jumping to conclusions and assuming that Draco bore no fault at all. Again, his classism works against both father and son and Draco is the poor rich kid. So what Draco is learning about authority he is learning by watching his father, but not understanding. Lucius wears his authority like a cloak--he has been accorded every ounce of respect and esteemed highly in the wizarding community since he was a teenager. He doesn't remember being gawky. He doesn't remember his own childhood very well, because he was pushed through it quickly to pick up the slack for his own father. Will there ultimately be a rift between father and son? I honestly don't want to hazard a guess on that. I DO think Draco will encounter some real questions about his path, and I DO think that Snape must begin to position himself in Draco's mind as someone he can turn to for the guidance that he didn't get from Lucius. He would be more likely to go to Snape than anyone else, but he's not ready for it yet. > It's also possible that the Malfoys are, and have always > been, Kingmakers - > In GoF, I didn't see any toadying by Lucius to > Voldemort, and Voldemort called Lucius by his first name, a > "consideration" > he didn't show to anyone else. It seems evident to me that > Lucius is no > ordinary Death Eater... > This is also an intriguing point that Heidi makes. Lucius is a cut above the others, both in his own estimation and in Voldemort's. I do think he has a strong vision, which is better formed than many of the other followers. I also think that Lucius has enough power and influence to suit himself and he's confident that Draco will be provided for. But I don't think he has any intention of dying anytime soon. His obsession with immortality may not be as all-consuming as V's, and he's not willing to go to the same lengths as the snakeman, but it's still there. He's willing to let V take all the risks, let others do the dirty work, and remain a mastermind who can exert influence through money, power, and planning. He does play the courtier just a little bit in GoF, though, Heidi, having the sense to look abashed on cue. But I would subscribe to the view that his public persona among the DE's is just that: a courtier. He plays a game and he knows when he's being sincere and when he's paying lip service. Like Draco, he's not above a little sucking up if it achieves his means, but unlike Draco, he's learned to be a little more subtle about it. This is an important distinction on the whole, "Slytherins aren't nice" angle. Whoever said evil couldn't be nice? (Cue Into the Woods, Heidi. "Nice is different than good.") Being nice to someone is a highly effective way of getting what you want from them. Being political can achieve any number of pleasing and desirable results. Just because Draco likes to jeer at people and Snape likes to sneer doesn't mean no Slytherins are ever charming. Even V himself says he's always been able to charm the people he needs. So there's my rambling essay on Lucius Malfoy, brought to you by Heidi, who made my ears burn and basically invited me to talk at length. I'm perfectly ready for the future books to prove that my ideas are totally off base. Gwendolyn Grace From anitaskeeter at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 19:01:31 2001 From: anitaskeeter at yahoo.com (Laura somethingorother) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 19:01:31 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter: The Epitome of Ethics (was Rita's Scoop) In-Reply-To: <2BC12397.56313B35.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kpdub+qrlc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23814 Well, I never said I was a GOOD Skeeter... Anita/Laura, wondering if she has been compared to an obsessed nitwit or an obsessive nitpicker (and wondering which is worse) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > and you call yourself Skeeter? > > > Diana knew a thing or too about manipulating the press herself. To some extent the Dis of this world are responsible for creating the Ritas > > The world needs her. Think how much worse Fudge would be without her. At least he tries to think how his actions will play in the press which is a bit of a restraint. Imagine if Lockhart ran for Minister of Magic - she'd be needed to take him down a peg. > > David, wondering if Rock A. Hardslab can explain the difference between an obsessed nitwit and an obsessive nitpicker > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Aug 7 19:16:09 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:16:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape after the DADA job In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010807132224.00a13a50@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <20010807191609.52372.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23815 OK everybody, just to solve the problem, the quotation is: Professor Lupin took another sip and Harry had a mad urge to knock the goblet out of his hands. "Professor Snape is very interested in the Dark Arts," he blurted out. "Really?" said Lupin, looking only mildly interested as he took another gulp of potion. "Some people reckon-" harry hesitaed, then plunged recklessly on, "some people reckon he'd do anything to get the Dewfence against the Dark Arts job." Lupin drained the goblet and pulled a face. "Disgusting," he said. "Well harry, I'd better get back to work. I'll se you at the feast later." So, if "disgusting" is referring to anything but the potion, it certainly is to the rumours and not to Snape. Susanna/pigwidgeon37 --- Martin Hooper ha scritto:
At 07/08/01 10:42, David wrote:
>Harry: Some people reckon Snape would do anything to get the dark arts job
>
>Lupin: (drinks werewolf potion, makes face): Disgusting
>
>So what is disgusting? The potion, the rumour, or Snape? What does Lupin
>know?

I would have said that the potion was disgusting - After all we don't know
what potions taste like do we???


Martin Hooper
AIM: martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602
http://www.crosswinds.net/~martinjh99/


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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From relliott at jvlnet.com Tue Aug 7 19:25:18 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:25:18 -0500 Subject: what surprised you the most? References: <997205627.8013.85735.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000601c11f76$b1f4d8a0$3fb191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23816 Everything stated in the thread "What surprised you the most?" really surprised but.. here is another one. Neville Longbottoms' past. When Harry was in the pensive and found out about Neville's parents, threw me for a loop. I had never really analyzed about why Neville's grandmother was raising him. It made me realize that every character in the novels have a rich past. What characters are going to come out of the woodwork. For example, there is a girl Hufflepuff named Susan Bones. Mr. & Mrs. Bones were killed by death eaters. Should the last names be connected? Are they some sort of relatives (parents, grandparents, cousins, or aunt & uncle?). "It was Voldemort...he was the one who had torn these families apart, who had ruined all these lives..." Harry (GoF31) How much destruction can one man and his followers cause? Well I guess that is obvious...look at WWII. From chl0525 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 19:33:15 2001 From: chl0525 at hotmail.com (chl0525 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 19:33:15 -0000 Subject: What makes Harry special? (was Chicken Meat) In-Reply-To: <20010806181855.56399.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kpfpr+ctdq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23817 If this was the content of Trelawny's prediction (and I think it was), this would also explain why the big V went after Harry to begin with. He just figured (wrongly) that he would nip this little problem in the bud. michelle > I don't think that Harry being a descendent of Gryffindor, should it > turn out to be so, is what will when the battle with Voldemort. I > think it will simply **identify** him to those who heard the > prophecy(1) as the one who will do it. > > (1)We know Trelawney made one correct predicition. I believe that it > was that Harry would be Voldemort's downfall. The predicition may not > have identified Harry by name. Perhaps it said something like "The > last know descendant of Gryfffindor will banish the last known > descendant of Slytherin." A quick genealogical search brought up > Harry's name. The blood of Gryffindor in his veins wasn't what made > him defeat Voldemort the first time; his mother's love did that. It > just told those interested where to look for him. The prediction could > just have easily said "The scar-headed boy with glasses will defeat > Voldemort." > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie > > ===== > Pensieve > A New Harry Potter Discussion Group > for Adults > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Aug 7 19:56:40 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 19:56:40 -0000 Subject: Pondering Lucius and Draco Message-ID: <9kph5q+ao9m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23818 Gwendolyn Grace wrote: No: HPFGUIDX 23819 i was wicked surprised when scabbers turned out to be peter pettigrew. but unlike harry, i immediately believed lupin. (i guess i couldn't stand the idea that one of my favorite characters would be that horrible.) what has also surprised me, overall, has been snape's treatment of neville. i have read various theories of why this is on this newsgroup, but it really shocked me when i first read the books. it continues to be one of those things i can't wait to see get resolved, or at least explained. --janna From pbnesbit at msn.com Tue Aug 7 20:43:38 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 20:43:38 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones (Was: Re: what surprised you the most?) In-Reply-To: <000601c11f76$b1f4d8a0$3fb191d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <9kpjtq+hdd8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23820 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachelle Elliott" wrote: (Snip) > It made me realize that > every character in the novels have a rich past. What characters are going > to come out of the woodwork. For example, there is a girl Hufflepuff named > Susan Bones. Mr. & Mrs. Bones were killed by death eaters. Should the last > names be connected? Are they some sort of relatives (parents, grandparents, > cousins, or aunt & uncle?). The Bones who were killed were Susan Bones' grandparents. Can't find which page it's on, but it's in GoF. > Peace & Plenty, Parker From catsrock at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 21:41:07 2001 From: catsrock at hotmail.com (Kavitha Kannan) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 21:41:07 -0000 Subject: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <20010807072936.61139.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kpn9j+bs5b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23821 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > --- smurfs143143 at a... wrote: > > >I believe Malfoy has put up a "facade" > >in the last four books, which is now > >ready to come down. > > Malfoy has long wore the facade but it's of a brave strong person. > Like most bullies, though, he's actually a MUCH worse coward than > Neville. He was afraid to go into the Forbidden Forest (PS), then ran > screaming in the Unicorn scene (PS), wasn't too cocky when he & Harry > were alone in the air (PS), and he ran from Harry's head (PoA). > > Draco is a coward. I'm not sure he'd have the guts to stand up to > Voldemort. Neville does. > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie Somehow I don't think Draco is a coward for those reasons. He may be a frightened piece of scum...but remember, Harry was so frightened and racked by pain from his scar that he was rooted to the ground and couldn't find it in him to scream. Harry and Draco were probably pretty close on the scale of fear, they just reacted differently. As for Draco turning to the good, I doubt he'd do that through regret or anything vaguely resembling regret. For one thing, he's too proud to apologize, or act in a way that could be constituted as a silent apology. Going to Harry's side would betray his personality. And then, he hates Harry, and is jealous of him, so he would never join a force against evil which had Harry as leader, which it would when the time for assembling such a force comes. Dumbledore may be the leader in name, but Harry would lead the age group. So, just to be spiteful and malicious, Draco would refuse to help Harry. However, I still think he may switch sides. But, it would be through something involving family honor, which I think the Malfoys would be big on. Perhaps Voldemort will kill Malfoy or Narcissa, and Draco will take it upon himself to hold blood fued and go after Voldie, and so he may fight alongside Harry, but he wouldn't be fighting under Harry, and maybe not even with his forces. It would be more of a "the enemy of my enemy is an ally, but I still hate his guts. He's just the lesser of two evils now. When i'm done with Voldie, I'll go spit on Harry, but the alliance is to valuable to waste over personal enmity right now. Besides, revenge is better cold." You know, that sort of thing. As for his defending his mother, that doesn't show any emotional ties, its just upholding family honor, and a feeling that only Lucius and Draco can abuse Narcissa. Its their privilege, but if anyone else does...beware the wrath of ferret-boy! So...i think JKR would be shortchanging us by having Draco "come to the light" in a fit of regret and thinking things over and a desire to do good. I think, I hope that JKR won't do that...but if she does, I'll be a big girl and not cry to hard at the betrayal of his very self, of his identity as the foil. Out of curiousity, why is the Dark always considered evil? Light can kill, if you're in the sun too long, but noone ever died from sitting in a shadow. That always annoys me...but that's just one of my quirks. *Shrug* I love the fact that Draco, the epitome of foulness is blond and pale while Harry, the do-good hero, has black hair and, i think, more tanned skin. Cliched blond heros bother me at times. > From vderark at bccs.org Tue Aug 7 21:40:32 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 21:40:32 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones (Was: Re: what surprised you the most?) In-Reply-To: <9kpjtq+hdd8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kpn8g+2isc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23822 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote: > > The Bones who were killed were Susan Bones' grandparents. Can't find > which page it's on, but it's in GoF. That fact was only mentioned in an interview with JKR with Barnes & Noble.com. Susan's grandparents were mentioned in a group of "some of the best witches and wizards of the age" by Hagrid in SS when he's telling Harry about Voldemort, although we aren't told then their relationship to Susan. Later, we meet Susan briefly when she is sorted into Hufflepuff, but still aren't told that there is a connection to the folks killed by Voldemort. Those are the only times we hear anything of Susan or her family. JKR was asked in that interview if there was a connection between Susan and the Bones that Hagrid mentioned and JKR said that the Bones who were killed were Susan's grandparents. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From anitaskeeter at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 22:03:13 2001 From: anitaskeeter at yahoo.com (Laura somethingorother) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 22:03:13 -0000 Subject: Question (and a bit of mockery) regarding interviews and Susan Bones In-Reply-To: <9kpn8g+2isc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kpoj1+2rt0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23823 D'you suppose Rowling actually ever thought of the connection between Suzie Bones and the victims before that question came up? I wonder if she just said "grandparents" to move onto another question, or if she had actually thought of the possible connection beforehand. *shrug* Either way, it works. But y'know. The question presents some amusing hypothetical situations. Interviewer: "Are the Bones mentioned in GoF any relation to Susan Bones, mentioned in the first book?" Rowling: "Yes....er.....ah......they were...um....Susan's mother's uncle's third cousin's great aunt's flatmates for a summer holiday in Brighton." LaurAnita who really wants to expand that situation to include Warner Bros. executives and fanfic writers From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 7 22:04:15 2001 From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 22:04:15 -0000 Subject: Calvinism - Why didn't Sirius get a trial In-Reply-To: <9kp3pl+5ulr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kpokv+hv0b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23824 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Marianna Lvovsky wrote: I think the wizarding community follows a similar > mindset: "Lucius Malfoy a Death Eater!? Well, no big surprize he was in Slytherin, don't ya know." > > That's why I think Sirius' "crime" was incredibly shocking to the > wizarding community because it went against the stereotype and it > knocked a giant hole in the Sorting Hat's credibility (to a degree). > > There's a saying that "one man's terrorist is another man's patriot". If there isn't support for various organizations or movements, then they wouldn't exist. If there wasn't Muggle and Muggle-born animosity in the wizarding community, Tom Riddle would have had to work twice as hard to recruit followers. As it was, he preyed upon the pre-existing hatred and fears of the wizarding community. > > > As to why Sirius did not get a trial: that very well > > might have been the very first case after LV's fall > > (committed immediately after LV's fall) and the trial > > system not perfected yet. Later caught DVs were tried > > properly (and maybe that's why no one thought to check > > SB for black mark, since there were no other DE trials > > and so the MoM didn't know about it yet, but only > > learned during trials) (during the struggle the Aurors > > had shoot-to-kill permission). > > > > That could be, but I would assume in a culture with various > bureaucratic offices throughout the centuries, I would think they > would have some sort of trial system in place. > > ;-)Milz Though I'm new to this group, I had to answer this topic because until I read it I had considered a much more simple reason for Sirius not receiving a trial. The difference between crimes committed by an (alleged) spy, and therefore a traitor, and crimes committed by people who were known to have supported Voldemort. If anyone has been following the real life genocide-in-former-Yugoslavia trials, this shows my point, the 'enemy' are tried publically and it's taken into account that they were fighting a war against their victims. However, if a member of the NATO forces had been accusing of colluding with (for example) Milosevic then surely they would have been treated differently? Admittedly in the Muggle world they probably would have got a trial (although IIRC Nazi 'sympathizers' in post-Vichy France were executed within trial) but the wizarding world might have a different POV. I'm not saying that House stereotypes might not have played a part, but as we don't know of anyone else would played a similar role during the 'war' we can't say for certain. My only point is that Sirius' alleged crimes could not have been considered equivalent to those of the DE's and so perhaps this is a false comparison. From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 7 22:10:24 2001 From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 22:10:24 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <000601c11f76$b1f4d8a0$3fb191d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <9kpp0g+sn2o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23825 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachelle Elliott" wrote: > Everything stated in the thread "What surprised you the most?" really > surprised but.. here is another one. > > Neville Longbottoms' past. When Harry was in the pensive and found out about Neville's parents, threw me for a loop. I had never really analyzed about why Neville's grandmother was raising him I have to agree with Rachelle on this one. I had kind of dismissed Neville as being a sort of minor character who might do something worthy of note at a later point. To discover he had such a tragic past was a little shocking (and the casual cruelty of Moody/ Crouch revelling in torturing the spider with Cruicatus (sp?)in DADA and then apparently showing sympathy to Neville when it was he who had done it to N's parents really got me on the re-read). From catsrock at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 22:19:28 2001 From: catsrock at hotmail.com (Kavitha Kannan) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 22:19:28 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010807054531.00ab64a0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <9kpphg+2b24@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23826 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris wrote: > > For myself, I would have to say that the Lupin is a werewolf story was the > one that caught me by suprise the most, even more so than Scabbers is > Peter, which was a shock, but I kept coming back to, he's a werewolf?? Well, the entire werewolf think was completely ruined for me since the name "Remus Lupin" screamed wolf louder than any Howler-or did it howl wolf? ok...stupid joke. The fact that it was such a blunt clue disappointed me...but Sirius being Padfoot was clever. I didn't remember any connection between Sirius and dog. Barth Crouch with Polyjuice was a surprise...I think every book had soemthing delightfully unexpected...and I was dutifully delighted by all the little twists. The Scabbers thing surprised me, but I couldn't help but marvel at the unlikliness of it all...and the fact that Pettigew was an Animagus was what made his escape form justice possible while Sirius's being an Animagus made his escape to freedom possible. However, I can't help but reflect on the coincidence and fatedness-if Shakespeare could invent words, I will too!-of Scabbers coming to Ron. Well...that kinda left the thread...but there's my thoughts on a few matter, take it or leave it. From catsrock at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 22:23:12 2001 From: catsrock at hotmail.com (Kavitha Kannan) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 22:23:12 -0000 Subject: Mundungus Fletcher In-Reply-To: <9koml0+t0oe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kppog+pq1d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23827 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > That name doesn't sound very appealing now does it? > > Hmm... at any rate, I have something more important to tell you. (At least, as important as fictional characters get.) Mundungus Fletcher, who was part of the "old crowd" mentioned in GoF, was also mentioned in CoS! Page 38, to be specific. Well, I got the feeling that old MF might be the father...after all, if Arthur addresses him as old, he could hardly be part of the "old crowd" from Hogwarts who was there at the same time as Sirius. But, maybe I'm wrong... From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 22:44:36 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 00:44:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Calvinism References: Message-ID: <00be01c11f92$88d34d00$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 23828 Gads! This list could talk the hind leg off an elephant! You get a thread started, miss two days and by the time you get back, you're reduced to making me-too noises. Anyway, I couldn't help but chime in on a couple. Amy wrote, > Good point by Amanda. I'd add, especially per Luke's comment, that this > paradox (our actions are predestined but we feel like we're choosing freely) > is not limited to Calvinism. Even people who don't believe in God at all > have to resolve the determinism/free will problem: are we all just doing > what we are "wound up" to do by our previous experiences, the exact > configuration of the atoms of the universe the moment we were born, etc.? > Even though we feel like we're making choices? Right. "Determinism" would have been nearly as good a title for the thread--although the particular sort of determinism we see (*maybe*) here is of a moral character, hence Calvinism. Another possibility would have been (with thanks to Amanda!) "Oedipus Complex"--only Freud got there first. > It seems to me that JKR herself is feeling the pull of both ways of > thinking: strongly believing in choice over predestination, yet enjoying > the literary convention (a rather boring one IMO) of four Houses, four > personalities, never mind that the kids are only 11 when they get put into > their compartments. Yeah. I don't have the impression that Rowling has spent a lot of time wrestling with the philosophical implications of the four houses' characteristics--or if she has, she hasn't begun to elucidate yet. So far, I have the feeling she uses the four moral & psychological "house types" more to create clear cut "teams" of good guys (coming in three varieties) and bad guys. And also to entertain us--because, philosophically problematic or not, the four house types belong precisely to that quirkiness which makes the Potterverse so enthralling, just like floo powder and Fizzing Whizzbees. Amanda wrote, > You *can't* escape from predestination. That's what predestination > means. If Snape is acting honorably, it is because he was predestined to > do so. That his situation makes his predestined choices such a struggle > for him is the pity. (Which sort of argument is why I dislike > predestination and plays like OEdipus Rex). True. However, I would distinguish between philosophical determinism (including the whole smorgasbord of Calvinisms, compatiblist or not) and the sort of prophetic or orphic determinism intentionally created in Oedipus Rex and *possibly* created by the Hogwarts sorting hat. The former is a general proposition: my choices are determined. The latter is a specific prediction: I will, necessarily, do such and so--wed my mother in OR or act according to the moral polarity of my house type in HP. The former is a concept we can never really escape, however we harmonize it with the vital but undefinable concept of freedom--the latter is an insult to our dignity. The more I think about it, the less I can believe that Jo understands the house types in this "orphic" sense. The sorting hat is more like a forensic psychiatrist than an oracle. It simply profiles its wearer and sends him to whichever house he fits best. The Slytherinish sort have a strong tendency to go bad (having developed a nasty house tradition doesn't help, I suppose)--but they don't *have* too. If there's something odd about the Potterverse, it's that ambitious Potterversians have such a high immorality quotient in comparison to the other personality types. As Marianna pointed out, in our wolrd the brave and noble can be rash and hot headed--the honest and hard-working can be narrow minded--the studious often become detached, bureaucratic, even cruel. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who notices that it's way past his bedtime and hopes he hasn't been talking even more nonsense than usual.) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From pbnesbit at msn.com Wed Aug 8 00:37:26 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 00:37:26 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones (Was: Re: what surprised you the most?) In-Reply-To: <9kpn8g+2isc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kq1k6+7vso@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23829 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote: > > > > > The Bones who were killed were Susan Bones' grandparents. Can't > find > > which page it's on, but it's in GoF. > > That fact was only mentioned in an interview with JKR with Barnes & > Noble.com. > > Susan's grandparents were mentioned in a group of "some of the best > witches and wizards of the age" by Hagrid in SS when he's telling > Harry about Voldemort, although we aren't told then their > relationship to Susan. Later, we meet Susan briefly when she is > sorted into Hufflepuff, but still aren't told that there is a > connection to the folks killed by Voldemort. Those are the only times > we hear anything of Susan or her family. > > JKR was asked in that interview if there was a connection between > Susan and the Bones that Hagrid mentioned and JKR said that the Bones > who were killed were Susan's grandparents. > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Oops! I goofed! This is what happens when you've got all this *stuff* running around in your head & can't remember where you read it or heard it. Thanks, Steve, for setting me straight. Peace & Plenty, Parker From befan1 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 00:38:19 2001 From: befan1 at hotmail.com (Ricard L. Befan) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 00:38:19 -0000 Subject: HP movie soundtrack news Message-ID: <9kq1lr+jd4f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23830 Hi everyone. In case you didn't know, last Tuesday (July 31) John Williams premiered 4 minutes of his music for the HARRY POTTER movie during a concert in Tanglewood, and mentioned that he's already written two- thirds of the score. He conducted a concert arrangement of "Hedwig's Theme", one of the major themes of the score, which was also used for the film's trailers. A sound clip of this performance along with all available information on the new Williams score can be found at the HARRY POTTER section of http://www.jwfan.net Thanks for your attention :-) Ricard L. Befan JWFAN.NET - Your Daily Dose of JOHN WILLIAMS http://www.jwfan.net From belinda at sawyertech.com Wed Aug 8 01:05:28 2001 From: belinda at sawyertech.com (belinda at sawyertech.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 01:05:28 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9kpphg+2b24@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kq38o+3259@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23831 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kavitha Kannan" wrote: > Well, the entire werewolf think was completely ruined for me since > the name "Remus Lupin" screamed wolf louder than any Howler- >...but Sirius being Padfoot was clever. Lupin was a blatant clue, but Sirius is pretty obvious, too -- the Dog Star. I think the name Sirius Black is a wonderful construction on a couple of levels. Belinda not a Sirius groupie, in spite of how it sounds. Remus Rules. From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Aug 8 01:29:19 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 20:29:19 -0500 Subject: Harry Potter not a children's book? References: <9kn2ib+cafk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B7095EF.4CD6A05A@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23832 Hi -- So many interesting threads going on, and I'm largely computer-less! (I'm moving back into my house at long last) Sofie wrote: > My main point is the characters. Apart from Voldemort, not a single > character could be described as entirely evil. I can't resist a "me too" to the other posts pointing out that the above is indicative of the opposite argument. That is, the nuances in & complexity of many of the HP characters point *against* the books being classified as standard childrens' literature. Many classic childrens' books feature cardboard cut-out black & white characters. > > JKR is a mother who reads Harry Potter to her child, I don't think she > could bear to subject Jessica to that knowledge. Take a look at the JKR FAQ -- http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ I don't think Steve has uploaded the re-converted version with all my footnotes in it, but JKR has been crystal clear in scores of interviews on this subject. She didn't write the books to a target audience. She doesn't intend to "tone it down" in future books in the series. She thinks some parents are making a mistake in letting children who are too young get hooked into the series ("I know what's comings," she says). She has the series all mapped out, and she doesn't intend to deviate from that course. Penny (who may have time to read, digest & respond to some of the other interesting threads a bit later .... stranger things have happened) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Aug 8 01:32:59 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 20:32:59 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Clarification about Religious Discussions Message-ID: <3B7096CB.9DDF50@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23833 Hi -- There may be some confusion on this score. Discussions of religion as it pertains to the wizarding world (or essays such as those composed by Peg Kerr in the past and Pippin most recently on the Ten Commandments) are perfectly fine. The ban is strictly limited to discussions of the Abanes book (HP & the Bible). The reasons for that ban have been stated before, so I won't go into that again. The other banned subjects on this list are politics (current, muggle politics that is) and the Holocaust. Thanks -- Penny Magical Moderator Team From margdean at erols.com Wed Aug 8 00:41:41 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 20:41:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's Redemption References: <9kpn9j+bs5b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B708AC5.F4B7F4F0@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23834 Kavitha Kannan wrote: > However, I still think he may switch sides. But, it would be through > something involving family honor, which I think the Malfoys would be > big on. Perhaps Voldemort will kill Malfoy or Narcissa, and Draco > will take it upon himself to hold blood fued and go after Voldie, and > so he may fight alongside Harry, but he wouldn't be fighting under > Harry, and maybe not even with his forces. It would be more of > a "the enemy of my enemy is an ally, but I still hate his guts. He's > just the lesser of two evils now. When i'm done with Voldie, I'll go > spit on Harry, but the alliance is to valuable to waste over personal > enmity right now. Besides, revenge is better cold." You know, that > sort of thing. That would also line up very well with the one time I ever detected a flash of real sympathy toward Harry in Draco. Now, this may be just my weird take on the matter; I know that most people feel that when Draco tells Harry (who doesn't know what the heck he's talking about, at that point), "If it were me, I'd want revenge!" he's just trying to egg Harry on to do something dangerous (go after Sirius Black). But somehow I read that line as Draco being, for once, perfectly sincere. If it were him -- if someone had betrayed his parents to their deaths -- he would want revenge. And if Harry felt the same way, Draco would perfectly understand in a way that Hermione and even Ron might not. --Margaret Dean From mindyatime at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 01:49:23 2001 From: mindyatime at yahoo.com (Mindy) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 01:49:23 -0000 Subject: Q's from a Newbie Message-ID: <9kq5r3+jpqb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23835 Hi, I am a brand newbie here so please forgive me if my q's are repeats of already-asked questions. If Mad Eye Moody was really Barty Crouch Jr. in disguise, why did he turn Draco into a ferret at the beginning of GoF? Was he trying to pretend to be nice to Harry and on 'his side'? Speaking of teachers, how come none of them ever got married? And how come none of them ever got replaced (besides for the DADA every year) by new young graduates from Hogwarts? Also, is there a school for Witchcraft and Wizardry in the good old U.S. of A.? Why only in France and "Bulgaria", out of all places? And here's a technical question -- not a HP question. How do I change the email address where I'd like to receive the digests??? From vderark at bccs.org Wed Aug 8 02:02:55 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:02:55 -0000 Subject: Q's from a Newbie In-Reply-To: <9kq5r3+jpqb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kq6kf+tnco@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23836 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy" wrote: > Hi, I am a brand newbie here so please forgive me if my q's are > repeats of already-asked questions. > > If Mad Eye Moody was really Barty Crouch Jr. in disguise, why did he > turn Draco into a ferret at the beginning of GoF? Was he trying to > pretend to be nice to Harry and on 'his side'? Moody hates the Malfoys. Lucius is a Death Eater who walked free instead of standing up for Voldemort. > > Speaking of teachers, how come none of them ever got married? And how > come none of them ever got replaced (besides for the DADA every year) > by new young graduates from Hogwarts? Some of them are married, according to JKR, but she says we'll learn more about that in coming books. And why should the teachers be replaced? With the exception of Hagrid, the teachers seem to be a competent lot. And new kids just out of Hogwarts wouldn't be first choice for teachers, I wouldn't think, without some experience first. Of course, my take on Quirrell is that he isn't too far out of Hogwarts. It was his year off for practical experience that did him in. But the point remains: there's no reason to get rid of any of the teachers. > > Also, is there a school for Witchcraft and Wizardry in the good old > U.S. of A.? Why only in France and "Bulgaria", out of all places? There are schools mentioned in the USA and Brasil, along with Durmstrang (which is NOT in Bulgaria...check the Geography FAQ for more on that) and Beauxbatons. The clear implication is that there are schools all over the world. Lexicon reference: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/schools.html Welcome to the list! Go ahead and ask your questions. You might want to peruse the Lexicon, though, and maybe you can get some of your questions answered that way. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Aug 8 02:30:58 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:30:58 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter: The Epitome of Ethics (was Rita's Scoop) In-Reply-To: <2BC12397.56313B35.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kq892+gr5d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23837 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > The world needs her. Think how much worse Fudge would be without her. At least he tries to think how his actions will play in the press which is a bit of a restraint.> David, David, David. I usually love your posts but this one just screamed at me to respond. I tried to resist... How can the world need Rita Skeeter? I need her like I need a hole in the head. I don't think Fudge practices restraint because he's thinking about what she might report - he's much more concerned with getting donations from the Malfoys and keeping his position. Besides, Skeeter prints LIES. What does it matter if Fudge messes up or does something great? She'll make it all up and make him look bad anyway. Skeeter is not above making a mockery of Harry Potter, a 14 year old kid. She insulted Dumbledore in one article, Bill Weasley in another. And I don't mean she disagreed with something they did; I mean she *insulted* them. She's all about being sensational and printing what sells, not about keeping the MoM on its toes. --jenny from ravenclaw********************************** From devika261 at aol.com Wed Aug 8 02:41:15 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 22:41:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] what surprised you the most? Message-ID: <88.a6ec192.28a200cb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23838 I was surprised by most of the things that people have already listed. Usually, the first time I read the books, I'm just "along for the ride," as someone else said, but when I go back and reread them and actually think about what's going on, the real surprise sets in. Does that seem strange? I was certainly surprised when Remus embraced Sirius in PoA, and after rereading it, I think that that scene is one of the most moving in the books so far. However, I have to say that I call the chapter "Flesh, Blood, and Bone" in GoF the "chapter of a thousand gasps." I'm still amazed at what happens there. First, Cedric is killed, something that I had to reread in order to fully comprehend. Then later, Wormtail cuts off his hand in what is a truly horrifying scene. Finally, the last sentence of the chapter still makes me shiver: "Lord Voldemort had risen again." What an intense chapter!! Devika *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *Redwood, phoenix feather, 8 3/4 inches* *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmtorres67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 02:45:07 2001 From: cmtorres67 at yahoo.com (cmtorres67 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:45:07 -0000 Subject: new to group: re: why we started reading the books Message-ID: <9kq93j+iqdr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23839 I am new to the group.I just finished rereading the 1st 4 HP books. I am currently sifting through postings previously made to this group, which makes me want to start reading the books over again! I read some postings about why people started to read the HP books. I love to read, and enjoy all different types of books, but I did not start reading HP until spring of 2000. I believe this was because there was so much talk about how great this series is that it made me determined not to read it. But curiosity finally got the better of me and I bought SS and started to read it - and I was hooked. JKR has done a superb job of developing the characters and storyline (so many of the characters are favorites of mine that I don't like to think about any of them dying in future books). I am anxiously awaiting book 5! As I said above, many of the characters are favorites of mine, but I am especially fond of Lupin and Snape. Celeste From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 02:47:21 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:47:21 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23840 Question 1: Mrs. Weasley certainly is neither stupid nor dull. How come she doesn't notice the magical transformations the car has undergone? ("Muggles *do* know more than we give them credit for, don't they?") *** What are the odds that Molly Weasley has been in more than just a few cars? For all she knows, we muggles could all be engineering geniuses... I think it's just a matter of her never having driven or been a passenger in a muggle car, so she has nothing to compare the enchanted car to. Yes, yes, she may have driven in the Ford Anglia before... but if she had it was probably with fewer people or belongings with her so she could chalk up the extra room to her not noticing before, simply because the circumstances were different. Question 2: I'd like you to express your opinions on the couple Molly&Arthur. They seem to get on very well, but would you say the have a relationship of equals? *** From the first time I read the book I thought instantly of my grandparents....my bumbling, comedic, well-meaning grandfather, and my more level-headed, organized, and practical grandmother. They balance each other out and bring out the best in each other, just like I see Molly and Arthur do. Molly keeps Arthur's imagination and such in check, and Arthur helps to soften Molly up a little. Question 3: Did anybody at this point think it had something to do with Dobby or did you attribute the sealing of the gate to their being late (it rhymes, I'm thunderstruck with my own talent!)? *** Ah, yes, If only I was so talented! I am immeasurably jealous! Ahem...Now moving on to my response :: I am ashamed to admit that I wouldn't allow myself to believe that Dobby was the culprit (he was too cute, although I already knew he was cunning). Although I did think that it had something to do with Dobby and his warning, I took it as the bad things beginning, instead of Dobby trying to protect Harry. Granted, it's been a while since I've read the book, so my initial perception might have been different. Question 4: (As the question about starting the car/underage magic has already been sufficiently discussed, I just leave it out. BUT:) Doesn't this scene tell us something about Ron? He knows that Harry has already got one warning from the MoM and will face expulsion if he's caught doing Underage Magic another time. Is Ron selfishly trying to show off? Is he extremely impulsive? *** No, I don't think Ron was trying to show off...impulsive, yes...but he didn't want to miss Ginny's sorting, he wanted to make waves at the school, he'd already flown it with Gred and Forge (the actual driving part of the plan having gone off without a hitch), and he honestly believed the situation to be dire enough that the ministry (and Hogwarts) wouldn't punish them for it. As far as Harry's warning from the MoM: Ron both opened the boot with the wand and operated the car...Harry was just going along for ride (although I think that if Dumbledore felt the flying car was grounds for expulsion, that fact wouldn't be enough to save Harry's bum, since he easily could have said 'no thanks...I'll wait for your mum and dad to see us and owl the school.') Question 5: Do you think the weather in general and the meteorological conditions on 1 September have a symbolical value in the books? Is it important that, as the books are getting "darker", the weather on the day of departure is getting worse with every book? *** Hmm...I've never thought about it that way before. I suppose you could think about it that way...although it may be a bit of a stretch, as JKR may be taking the weather think one book at a time instead of saying 'ok, the first day in the first book can be nice and sunny, but the seventh will be by far the darkest...so I think that a nice twister is in order, oh yes! Flying cows and all!!' Ummm....feel free to ignore me from here on...seeing as how I'm running on sugar... Question 6: What do you think the car is running on? And why does the engine die at this point? *** I have no idea what the car is running on....but as far as the engine dying at that point... Icing on the cake! Just when they think it couldn't get worse for them, and the excitement has worn off and now they're just miserable, the engine starts to splutter, and they start to wonder why they drove the car in the first place...what if they don't make it to Hogwarts?! What if they crash the car and have to walk the rest of the way and miss the feast and the sorting anyway?! What if they crash the car and *can't* walk the rest of the way?! Oh the drama!! Question 7: Why does Snape wait for them?( It should be McGonagall who is Head of Gryffindor. She does not necessarily have to survey the Sorting ceremony, as we know from PoA, where she summons Harry and Hermione into her office, while Prof. Flitwick replaces her at the Sorting.) *** In my opinion, this can go two ways.... ONE: Snape notices that they are not seated at the Gryffindor table and excuses himself so he can wait for the boys' arrival and nail them for not coming on the train, fulfilling his dream of getting Harry Potter expelled, and a Weasley as well! Two birds with one stone, Yippee!!! A (because I'm sure there's more than one) caveat to this is that someone else is bound to have noticed that 'Famous Harry Potter' and Ron Weasley (especially McGonagall, the Weasleys, Hermione and Dumbledore) were missing from the feast... Maybe Snape volunteered to Dumbledore before McGonagall could, and got permission to wait for them, being the concerned teacher that he is... and TWO: Snape had business to attend to and stumbled upon Harry and Ron. YAY! Got that pesky anti-B.O potion finished so I won't have to shower and wreck my lovely hair for at least 6 or 7 weeks...AND I caught Potter and Weasley trying to enter the feast after being so deviant as to try to come to school by another means than the Hogwarts' Express!!! Question 8: What Ron and Harry did, would certainly have been worth expulsion. Much as we all like the two of them, do you think it OK McGonagall lets them get away just with detention? And why do you think she made this decision? *** They both have promising futures in the wizarding world...and although they do have a habit of breaking the rules, they have saved the school from a Mountain Troll and recovered the Philosopher's Stone from Voldemort/Quirrell. Expelling kids with such an admirable record at only 12 years old would be like taking a 12 year old shoplifter with no previous record, and an A average, and sentencing him or her to life in a maximum security prison. It was just a lapse of judgement on the part of two children...and while it did have major repercussions with the ministry (having to memory charm all those who saw the car, etc...), to expel them would be too drastic. Question 9: If Hermione had been with them at King's Cross, do you think the two boys would have convinced her to fly to Hogwarts with them by car? ( Later on in the book (Polyjuice Potion) we see that Hermione is as capable of rule- breaking as the other two, which she has already demonstrated in the Norbert- episode in PS/SS) *** She broke those rules for Hagrid, and ultimately for everyone's safety...I mean, a dragon running around Hogwarts...things could get ugly...I think Hermione would have had the sense to wait for Mr and Mrs. Weasley and send Hedwig ahead to inform McGonagall and Dumbledore that they missed the train and would be talking to Mr. And Mrs. Weasley about what to do. I doubt she would have made such an impulsive decision. CHAPTER 6- Gilderoy Lockhart Question 10: It has never been made really clear how Mr. Weasley managed to keep his job at the MoM, given that the charge against him was quite serious (Rita Skeeter's article in GoF only mentions that he was charged with the illegal possession of an enchanted car) . How do you think he got himself out? *** There was a loophole in the law...He himself, the enchanter of the car, never intended to drive it, or allow anyone else to drive it. That's like the owner of an enchanted tea set falling ill and having a neighbour come over and try to make a cup of tea for her poor sick friend, only to be scalded by a very angry tea kettle and pelted by sugar lumps by a mischievious little sugar pot... And we all know that Rita Skeeter isn't one to check her sources (..'Several bodies found at the Quidditch World Cup...'?!), so Arthur may not have ever been charged at all...just investigated. Question 11: I cannot get rid of the thought that some of the less important characters, and especially Lockhart, are caricatures of very real and unpleasant persons JKR met and couldn't resist to have her little revenge on. What do you think? *** Ah, yes, I can just picture JKR hunched over her computer cackling wildly over the thought of old Bobby Bumblebee (her know-it-all next-door-neighbour who claimed he could fix her car and ended up just cracking the 'whirling-ka-thingermajinger' and and denting the 'cumbustulator'), and snickering with glee over the thought of Gordon (her enormous step-cousin who always got his way at family gatherings) sprouting a tail and wimpering with his hands over his massive rear-end. Question 12: Do you think that Lockhart's way of presenting himself as The- One- Who- Always- Knows- Best is a result of stupidity combined with selfishness and conceit, or is it simply a calculated strategy, trying how far people will let him go (following Hitler's famous: The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it)? Is he a Slytherin? *** Oh, I believe it's a mix of both. While it doesn't say anywhere in the books that he even went to Hogwarts, I can assume that he would be in Slytherin if he had...because a true gryffindor would never have run away from their responsibilities and the chamber of secrets, and I couldn't imagine a Hufflepuff running around blasting innocent people with memory charms and lying about the story. As far as Ravenclaw goes, could you imagine a smart, studious man running around spewing things that have no proof of whatsoever...(telling various people that he knew what the monster of Slytherin was, and how to kill it, where the entrance to the Chamber is, etc.) Even a self-serving Ravenclaw wouldn't be that stupid. Yup...although he isn't the typical 'yes-I-am-evil' Slytherin, he probably 'would have done well in slytherin', just as Harry would have. If Lockhart indeed did go to Hogwarts I can imagine him bragging about his school days to all the students in his class (where no teachers could contradict him)...and he doesn't, which leads me to believe that he did not go to Hogwarts...but if he didn't: where DID he go to school? Question 13: Which part of the plant is used for potion- making? Do they chop up the leaves or the "roots" (eurgh!!)? And if it's the leaves, what happens to the "roots"? Sorry, but this has been tormenting me since I first read the book. **Whoever said that they didn't want to know....My sentiments EXACTLY! Question 14: The general opinion about Colin Creevey isn't too positive but what about his behaviour during this scene? Standing up to Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, on his first day at Hogwarts and furthermore being Muggle- born, indicates that he has a lot of courage. And what do you think about his surprising psychological insight? Is Malfoy really jealous of Harry? **I think Creevey is annoying, but cute. And yes he is brave, although he could be compared to Aberforth. Dumbledore says that Aberforth went on with his business as usual after the controversy surrounding him and his charmed goat...and that he wasn't sure if that was bravery or simply the fact that Aberforth might not have been able to read, and didn't *know* about the rumours and gossip and controversy surrounding himself. Colin could be being brave...standing up to Malfoy, the son of a well-known (although supposedly reformed) follower of Voldemort, muggle and mudblood hater, blah blah blah...or it could simply be the fact that he has never been a part of the wizarding world before and doesn't know about all those scarey things surrounding the Malfoys. And Yes, I do think that subconsciously Malfoy is jealous of Harry, which just adds to the hatred started by his father. 'Famous Harry Potter' doesn't get into trouble for flying the broom, he gets a nimbus 2000 and a place on the Quidditch team...that kind of thing. Draco wants the kind of appreciation Harry gets, which he feels he deserves simply for being Draco Malfoy. Question 15: How come that Hermione who as far as we know her, is not a person to judge people because of their looks, is so easily fooled by Lockhart? If not his tactless behaviour to Prof. Sprout, at least the Pixie incident should have cast some light upon who and what he really is. **Oh, it's classic behaviour....Even thought the gorgeous blonde has no conversational skills and is about as smart and full of personality as a loaf of bread, all (or most)of the guys like her, become tongue-tied around her and follow her like little lost puppies... Same goes for girls...even though the best-looking guy in the class is cocky, rude, stupid, etc; all (or most) of the girls think he's 'just *sigh* PERFECT!'...and practise writing their first name with his last name all over their notes. Hermione is no exception, I guess. Katie** *Who STILL doesn't have a catchy little quote to end her rants... Anybody wanna lend me one?!?! :) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From aiz24 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 03:06:14 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 23:06:14 -0400 Subject: Heart-strings-tugging men - Why no trial? - Bones - Binns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23841 Various people have pointed out, astutely IMO, that Lupin, Sirius and Snape all appeal to the savior (otherwise known as the martyr, the mother, etc.) that lurks inside many women. I think the *mix* of vulnerability/screwed-up-ness and strength is the key here. Men who are completely self-sufficient leave that need-to-be-needed part of some of us (can't imagine who) unfulfilled, while men who are constantly on the verge of falling apart have little to give. I know the appeal of Lupin for me is this combination. He is an extremely capable, intelligent and powerful person, but he also needs some taking care of; he's been through a lot. Add in that he's kind and sensitive to other people and . . . okay, I'm going to stop now before I talk myself into a swoon. Aleks, good point on the difference between Sirius's crime (and treatment) and the DEs'. I would add that he might have been a victim of the "Longbottom effect": crimes committed after the fall of Voldemort were received even more bitterly by the wizarding community. In Sirius's case, it was a matter of less than a day afterwards, and was the fallout from that final scene of the war proper (the Potter-Voldemort confrontation), but still, everyone is celebrating V's miraculous downfall and in the middle of it this man blows up 13 people. The MOM probably felt more rage at that than at similar crimes committed in the preceding months. It's also very possible that he was *not* treated differently from many other accused. He says, "I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the Dementors without trial." (GoF 27) Laura somethingorother (welcome, Laura!) wrote: >D'you suppose Rowling actually ever thought of the connection between >Suzie Bones and the victims before that question came up? I really do. Maybe she didn't work out that the victims were her grandparents, but I'm sure she intended for there to be a connection. It's not a common name. The Brighton flatmates would be funnier, though. Kelly the Yarn Junkie wrote: >Could Binns have been AKed while he slept and that's why he became a >ghost? By a formerly sane student who was driven over the edge by one too many stultifying lectures, perhaps? Amy the On-again, Off-again Knitting Addict _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From caliburncy at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 03:09:13 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 03:09:13 -0000 Subject: Mundungus Fletcher In-Reply-To: <9kppog+pq1d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kqagp+i46p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23842 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kavitha Kannan" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > > That name doesn't sound very appealing now does it? > > > > Hmm... at any rate, I have something more important to tell you. > (At least, as important as fictional characters get.) Mundungus > Fletcher, who was part of the "old crowd" mentioned in GoF, was also > mentioned in CoS! Page 38, to be specific. > > Well, I got the feeling that old MF might be the father...after all, > if Arthur addresses him as old, he could hardly be part of the "old > crowd" from Hogwarts who was there at the same time as Sirius. But, > maybe I'm wrong... Well, technically we have no proof that the "old crowd" refers to the peers of Lupin, Sirius, etc. (the "old crowd" from school). It could just as easily be the "old crowd" from something else, like the fight against Voldemort: In which case differences in age would be quite reasonable. After all, we do know Arabella Figg is in the "old crowd" too and JKR said she was Mrs. Figg, Harry's neighbor, not the daughter of Mrs. Figg or anything like that. And Mrs. Figg is also rather older than Lupin and Sirius. Unless she drank an aging potion or something like that--which I concede is possible. -Luke From caliburncy at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 03:11:35 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 03:11:35 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter not a children's book? In-Reply-To: <3B7095EF.4CD6A05A@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9kqal7+te8s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23843 Already gave some (but certainly not all) of my comments on this issue. But came across this quote of C.S. Lewis and thought I'd throw it into the fray for what it's worth: Where the children's story is simply the right form for what the author has to say, then of course readers who want to hear that will read the story or re-read it, at any age...I am almost inclined to set it up as a canon that a children's story which is enjoyed only by children is a bad children's story. The good ones last. - C. S. Lewis, "On Three Ways of Writing for Children" From cmtorres67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 03:12:24 2001 From: cmtorres67 at yahoo.com (cmtorres67 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 03:12:24 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most Message-ID: <9kqamo+q6i5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23844 I thought it was shocking when Lupin embraced Sirius, but then when GoF came out the whole last part of the book - from the moment Cedric was murdered until Dumbledore sent Sirius and Snape of - that whole part was one unpleasant surprise after another for me: the chilling statement 'kill the spare' ; The ritual of V's rebirth and Harry repeating let it be dead,let it have drowned; Barty Jr being Moody and fooling Dumbledore all year; and Fudge allowing the dementor to administer the kiss to Barty Jr and not believing what Harry and Dumbledore are telling him about Voldermort being back. From devika261 at aol.com Wed Aug 8 03:12:34 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:12:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23845 > Question 7: Why does Snape wait for them?( It should be McGonagall > who is Head of Gryffindor. She does not necessarily have to survey > the Sorting ceremony, as we know from PoA, where she summons Harry > and Hermione into her office, while Prof. Flitwick replaces her at > the Sorting.) > I don't think anyone has suggested this (my apologies if someone has). It could be that Snape is still trying to protect Harry. After all, it's only been a few months since the Sorcerer's Stone has been destroyed, and now suddenly Harry Potter doesn't show up with the rest of the school for the Sorting. Snape, who always seems to have an eye out for Harry, would notice this and go to find out what happened to him. Who knows, Voldemort could be making a second attempt to get to Harry, or perhaps Snape even knows something of the "plot" that Dobby mentioned (although I'm not so sure about that). It's also possible that Dumbledore is looking out for Harry, notices that he's not there, and sends Snape to find him. Either way, I think that Snape could be making sure Harry is safe, and resenting every minute of it. Devika *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them." --Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's [Philosopher's] Stone *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Wed Aug 8 03:49:52 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 03:49:52 -0000 Subject: Draco's Redemption/Sirius Black In-Reply-To: <3B708AC5.F4B7F4F0@erols.com> Message-ID: <9kqct0+jqs0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23846 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean wrote: > I know that most people feel that when Draco tells Harry (who > doesn't know what the heck he's talking about, at that point), > "If it were me, I'd want revenge!" he's just trying to egg Harry > on to do something dangerous (go after Sirius Black). That reminds me of something I've been puzzling over lately (for the sake of a fanfic): at that point in the book, supposedly everyone except Sirius himself and the rat believes that Sirius betrayed the Potters, killed all those Muggles, and was a valued servant of Lord Voldemort. It would be in character for Draco, believing that and being at that time an ignorantly enthusiastic follower of the Dark Lord, to regard the Dark Wizard Black with admiration and envy, daydreaming of the day when he, too, can do a great service for the Dark Lord and kill so many Muggles with one curse, but be clever enough not to be captured by MoM. Altho' being the only person ever to escape from Azkaban makes up in adventure & heroism for having been caught. (I am not deliberately copying Jeralyn from ASA!) By the end of GoF, not only Remus, Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Dumbledore know that Sirius was innocent, but so do Snape, assorted Weasleys, and presumably McGonagall as well, and apparently 'the old crowd' is about to find out. When will it become more or less common knowledge that Dumbledore believes Black was innocent? At that point, will Draco (if still Dark) assume that Sirius has succeeded in deceiving Dumbledore, thus adding to his admiration? When will Draco learn that Sirius really was on the Light Side all along, and how will he adjust his attitude toward Sirius? From devilsangel0809 at aol.com Wed Aug 8 03:56:37 2001 From: devilsangel0809 at aol.com (devilsangel0809 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 03:56:37 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010807054531.00ab64a0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <9kqd9l+lo5d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23847 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris wrote: > Do to the recent thread of "why did you start reading the HP books" I was > very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, surprised you the > most. I am asking because I have passed the books on to a few people and > its very interesting to see what exactly caught them offguard. Tom Riddle > is Voldemort, Cedric, etc... > > For myself, I would have to say that the Lupin is a werewolf story was the > one that caught me by suprise the most, even more so than Scabbers is > Peter, which was a shock, but I kept coming back to, he's a werewolf?? > > Hopefully someone else woudl like to share. > > C > I think the moment that totally made me go "Wait whaaat?" was in GoF35 'Veritaserum' The whole part when (who i thought was) Moody told Harry it was him who put his name in the Goblet. It was a total shock. Although the 'Remus embracing Sirius' scene was a close second. The fact that Scabbers wasn't a rat seemed a bit . . . drat i can't think of the word, not obvious but somethng along those lines, he just seemed a bit too intelligent throughout the book to be a rat. I dunno! ~Laura From litalex at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 04:04:48 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the way old discussion of British versions vs. American ones In-Reply-To: <9kqd9l+lo5d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010808040448.24811.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23848 Hello, Is there a complete list of words changed in the American versions (for any and all of the books)? little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From smurfs143143 at aol.com Wed Aug 8 04:08:27 2001 From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:08:27 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010807054531.00ab64a0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <9kqdvr+g3rl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23849 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris wrote: which bombshell, large or small, surprised you the > most? > > C > > ~ The two most surprising incidents in my mind were Moody & Scabbers. However, I thing Scabbers was more surprising because we knew him for a lot longer that we knew Moody. I had liked Scabbers a lot and when I found out he was Peter I felt so betrayed. Imagine how Ron felt! Having a pet rat who betrayed his best friend's parents! I still have not gotten over that, although and I am now focusing on trying to get over Moody = ) - Elizabeth From catlady at wicca.net Wed Aug 8 04:17:26 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:17:26 -0000 Subject: where are Lake, Forbidden Forest, etc? Message-ID: <9kqegm+6jm4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23850 Does anyone know where there is a plausible map of Hogwarts Campus? In GoF, starting from Hagrid's Hut, they walk around the perimeter of the forest until they are out of sight from the castle, and that is where the dragon enclosure is set up for the First Task. How big is the Forest, is the castle between the Forest and the Lake, how big is the Lake, where is Hogsmeade relative to the Forest, the castle, and the Lake, and isn't Hogsmeade further upslope the hillside from the castle? Where is the Quidditch pitch in all this? From golden_faile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 04:21:35 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9kqd9l+lo5d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010808042135.91877.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23851 --- devilsangel0809 at aol.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris > wrote: > > Do to the recent thread of "why did you start > reading the HP books" > I was > > very curious to find out which bombshell, large or > small, surprised > you the > > most. Ron's reaction to Harry's name being put in the Gof. I totally didn't expect the fight to last as long as it did. I expected Ron to believe Harry form the beginning. I was absolutely devastated when he didn't. Laila __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 05:25:21 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 05:25:21 -0000 Subject: JKR's writing as craft (Was FAQF) In-Reply-To: <9khgiu+ktb9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kqig1+m6he@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23852 Prefectmarcus:" 'That's not a Quick Quotes Quill, is it?' 'No sir. Those things are garbage.' Does anybody reading this recognize the reference?" Actually, we probably all do. There's a lot of people on this list who know this tale as well as anyone anywhere. Prefectmarcus:"The rest [fanfic] were very forgettable. So I suspect, at least for me, there is more to it that just good characters. True, they are an essential ingredient, but certainly not the only or the most important one." Most fanfics don't give us anything good in characterization, and the writing is usually execrable. The writing is important. J.K Rowling is a fine writer. I've always thought so. Her stories wouldn't be what they are if the ideas didn't make it to the page so clearly. But the language she uses isn't art by itself, as it can be with writers like Tolkien, Twain, or Patrick O'Brian. And that's OK. Part of it is that she's writing for a younger audience, and keeps her writing as accessible as she can. What do we spend our time talking about so much? The characters. The Trio. Malfoy. Snape. Dumbledore. People a hundred years from now will know who they are, as they know who Hamlet, Macbeth, and Sherlock Holmes are. There's been stories about apprentice wizards before, and about kids who had a target on their backs before. There's books about combinations of all these elements, and many of them are well written. But they don't have Harry Potter in them, do they? From vderark at bccs.org Wed Aug 8 05:26:19 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 05:26:19 -0000 Subject: where are Lake, Forbidden Forest, etc? In-Reply-To: <9kqegm+6jm4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kqihr+jdbh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23853 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Does anyone know where there is a plausible map of Hogwarts Campus? > In GoF, starting from Hagrid's Hut, they walk around the perimeter of > the forest until they are out of sight from the castle, and that is > where the dragon enclosure is set up for the First Task. How big is > the Forest, is the castle between the Forest and the Lake, how big is > the Lake, where is Hogsmeade relative to the Forest, the castle, and > the Lake, and isn't Hogsmeade further upslope the hillside from the > castle? Where is the Quidditch pitch in all this? Well, you could try the Wizard's Atlas: Atlas of Hogwarts at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/atlas.html It has maps of Hogwarts and environs, Hogsmeade, the ground floor of Hogwarts castle, and the Gryffindor dormitory. Each of these maps is based on careful analysis of the text and therefore each is about as acurate as you can get but at the same time not "official." For example, the direction of the front doors is known from a reference in PA. The Forbidden Forest we know is on the opposite side of the castle from the Quidditch pitch, but which side is which? The map in the Atlas assumes that the Quidditch pitch is on the west side since Harry sees the setting sun glinting on the castle windows as he walks toward the castle from the field in SS. However, just the other day I noticed this sentence in PA: "Walking very close together so that nobody would see them, they crossed the hall on tiptoe beneath the cloak, then walked down the stone front steps into the grounds. The sun was already sinking behind the Forbidden Forest, gilding the top branches of the trees." This strongly suggests that the forest is on the WEST side of the castle. I haven't worked up the energy to redo the map, but I think that I'll have to reverse the Quidditch pitch and Hagrid's Hut/the Whomping Willow/the Forbidden Forest. Or maybe I can figure out a way to convince myself that the forest encircles the lawns and is on BOTH sides of the castle... By the way, there is also an Atlas of Wizarding Britain, which features a map of Diagon Alley. I'm particularly happy with that one. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com~svderark/lexicon From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 05:36:23 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 05:36:23 -0000 Subject: Who sent the Valentine? (long) In-Reply-To: <9kout4+iujc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kqj4n+41e0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23854 Naama:" Sorry to be so dense, but why is it unlikely that Ginny had sent the Valentine? Possibly I've missed things in previous posts but on the face of it, it seems extremely likely to me (in fact, I'm sure of it). It is specifically said that she sent Harry a get well card she had made herself (it sang shrilly and Harry had to put it under something to make it stop). My impression of her attitude to Harry is of a fairly obvious crush (everybody knows of it, after all, so it must > be obvious). It makes perfect sense that she would the person who would send him a Valentine and compose the verse herself. It's precisely what an eleven year old would do for her object of hero worship." I can't imagine a reason to doubt Ginny sent the Valentine. Who else? Those who say different are probably trying to get Ginny out of the way so Harry will be available for Hermione. From catlady at wicca.net Wed Aug 8 06:48:07 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 06:48:07 -0000 Subject: where are Lake, Forbidden Forest, etc? In-Reply-To: <9kqihr+jdbh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kqnb7+hsc5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23855 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Well, you could try the Wizard's Atlas: Atlas of Hogwarts at > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/atlas.html Grumble, grumble... if the lake is at the bottom of cliffs and the castle is at their top (which is, yes, from canon), then how are people are always taking litle strolls around the lake? Climbing down the cliffs to the lake and up again afterwards wouldn't be very relaxing! How do we know that the railway track is between the school and the village? I guess it CAN be: the railway track was between my college and the shopping street, and we students always walked right over it (looking out for trains first, of course, as trains whooshed by fairly often, I think mostly full of coal) regardless of how many signs and speeches kept telling us not to cross the tracks except at --- actually, I don't remember where the supposedly safe place to cross those tracks was. I suppose I'm just being American to think that if the students have to cross the railway track for their Hogsmeade outings, that breakfast of each outing day (and dinner of the night before) would include an announcement from someone at the Head Table to be careful when crossing the track. From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Wed Aug 8 08:36:41 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 08:36:41 -0000 Subject: HP and Religion Message-ID: <9kqtmp+jr00@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23856 In the Florida Today newspaper (for those of you in the Brevard County area, don't know where else it ran) there were some letters to the editor regarding HP and Religion. It seems one of the local pastors on Merritt Island has done a sermon about all the bad stuff in HP (witchcraft, satanism, you know, the usual). A large number of residents apparently disagreed! If you'd like to read the original article, here's the link: http://www.floridatoday.com/news/local/stories/2001/aug/loc080401d.htm I don't know how long it will be there, but it is quite interesting :) Here is the link to some of the leters written in response: http://www.floridatoday.com/news/editorial/stories/2001/aug/let080801a .htm I don't know how to hyperlink these ... sorry! Michelle :) <---HP made me become a satanist. Oh wait ... I don't believe in Satan ... nevermind :) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 8 10:08:22 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 06:08:22 -0400 Subject: Lucius (should be Draco, Shurely?) Malfoy Bet Message-ID: <4093E4DD.6E1A6A03.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23857 Various people wrote: >> > > : waves hand in air, takes haggridd's bet. >> > > I wager a 1st ed GoF that book 7 will not end without draco >having >> > > previously done 1 good and redeemable thing. >> > > And I move for amanda and angela boyko to serve as determinors. >re. >Would >> > you care to rephrase, please? >> > >> > Angela Boyko and Amanda are perfectly acceptable, with Amy Z. to >> cast >> > a deciding vote in case of a tie. >> > > >> Let's let the TrippleA's make up their mind after reading book 7 for >> the 2nd time as to whether Draco has done something which is good >and >> redeemable. > Does the loser get a Determinator's Kiss? If so, count me in. David, prepared to lose his soul for a price __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From mediaphen at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 10:13:50 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:13:50 +0200 Subject: what surprised you the most? References: <997233429.1985.74165.l9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23858 > Message: 18 > Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 22:19:28 -0000 > From: "Kavitha Kannan" > Subject: Re: what surprised you the most? > > > > I didn't remember any connection between Sirius and dog. > > Me neither, until this was brought up. But here it is: Sirius is the brightest star in the sky, and part of stellar constellation "Canis Major", which means The Big Dog. Assuming that the dog in question is black as the night sky (at least compared to the stars of which it is bordered) it all makes perfect sense. And oh, I will have to go with the Scabbers-Pettigrew-line as the thing that surprised me the most, followed with the fact that Gryff actually _failed_ to win the Q-cup the first two years. Martin (keep watching the skies!) From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 10:33:41 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 10:33:41 -0000 Subject: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <3B708AC5.F4B7F4F0@erols.com> Message-ID: <9kr4i5+7pfg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23859 > That would also line up very well with the one time I ever > detected a flash of real sympathy toward Harry in Draco. Now, > this may be just my weird take on the matter; I know that most > people feel that when Draco tells Harry (who doesn't know what > the heck he's talking about, at that point), "If it were me, I'd > want revenge!" he's just trying to egg Harry on to do something > dangerous (go after Sirius Black). But somehow I read that line > as Draco being, for once, perfectly sincere. If it were him -- > if someone had betrayed his parents to their deaths -- he would > want revenge. Yes indeed. And Draco being Draco, he'd stop at nothing to get that revenge until he'd got Goyle and Crabbe had been killed in the attempt. At that point, when he'd be reduced to having to do it himself, he'd probably discover the benefits of coming to terms with his grief and forgiveness. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 8 10:48:39 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 06:48:39 -0400 Subject: The Valentine and Ginny Message-ID: <1DE9AA6B.6D7B8EB0.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23860 Naama: >" Sorry to be so dense, but why is it unlikely that Ginny had >sent the Valentine? Possibly I've missed things in previous posts but >on the face of it, it seems extremely likely to me (in fact, I'm sure >of it). > >It is specifically said that she sent Harry a get well card she had >made herself (it sang shrilly and Harry had to put it under something >to make it stop). My impression of her attitude to Harry is of a >fairly obvious crush (everybody knows of it, after all, so it must >> be obvious). It makes perfect sense that she would the person who >would send him a Valentine and compose the verse herself. It's >precisely what an eleven year old would do for her object of hero >worship." Magda: >Ginny sent the valentine. She's an independent young woman who knows >what she wants and goes after it. (However, since she's only 11, >it's not the perfect effort you'd get from someone ten years older >but she's trying.) Jim: >I can't imagine a reason to doubt Ginny sent the Valentine. Who else? >Those who say different are probably trying to get Ginny out of the >way so Harry will be available for Hermione. I have perhaps over-egged it with the unlikeliness of Ginny. But I feel it is a bit out of character. The problem is, as has been discussed before, that Ginny's character seems to vary through the books. She does stick up for Harry in F&B's, and, much later, for Bill. I agree about the independence, which is easily missed from the Harry POV. But, as far as her own feelings for Harry are concerned, she seems very shy and unwilling to express herself. Part of the diary's attraction for her is that she has no-one else to talk to. She does want Harry to notice her but, apart possibly from this one incident, never tries to get him to. OTOH, part of the point of Valentine's day, as I understand it, is that it's legitimate to say things you wouldn't normally dare to. She would feel able to send the singing get-well card as a friend without embarrassment. It's a chance to express affection in a natural way. The idea may have come from the Valentine. I'm not sure that her crush is well-known. Draco, with his sharp eye for vulnerability, spotted it in F&B's; the Weasleys and Hermione must know, but would never blab. Harry, it would seem, prefers not to think about it. Draco attributes the Valentine to her and she rushes out. It's difficult to know what to make of this. One assumes that the main thing in her mind is 'What has Tom told Harry? Please don't draw Harry's attention to me now.' So it's hard to deduce anything about her authorship from that. I like Ginny a lot and am looking forward to seeing more of her. How does she find classes with Colin Creevey? Does she have any girl friends in her own year? When will she be let in on the truth about Lupin, Sirius, Snape, and Fudge? How does Neville feel about her? Did being taken over by Riddle leave any lasting effect? Jim: them's fightin' words. You know very well I want Ginny out of the way to make room for Myrtle, not Hermione. I think a duel at midnight in the Transfiguration classroom, with Mrs Norris and the Bloody Baron as witnesses, is appropriate. BTW, I notice that my original post has those horrid in: would you believe it, I checked for this before posting, and Evil Overlord Bill Gates put them in anyway. David, another very shy person __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From vheggie at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 11:14:22 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 11:14:22 -0000 Subject: The pupil numbers debate- intakes post 11? Message-ID: <9kr6ue+1111s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23861 Whilst it's probably a bad idea for a newbie to jump headlong into this particular debate, I have trawled through as many of the FAQs & archived posts as I can, and haven't come across the following suggestions. Apologies, therefore, if they are not new. Is there any direct evidence for the assumption that children only enter Hogwarts at the age of 11? I lived in an area of the UK where the 11+ ("eleven-plus") was still in practice; a test in the final year of primary school (ages 10 - 11) which streamed pupils into secondary schools. There was a 'second intake', particularly of boys, [who seemed to blossom later than girls :)], at thirteen for many schools, and it wasn't unusual for schools to take in extra pupils at age 14-15 (for the two year run-up to the GCSE exams) and at 16-17, to enter into the sixth form. Is it possible that the 'late-bloomers' are being catered for by multiple intakes (and possibly multiple sorting ceremonies)? Personally, I'm not convinced about earlier intakes; but an expanded sixth-form is very common in parts of the UK. Sixth form pupils often have their own common rooms, class rooms, teachers, and even whole areas of the school dedicated to them. Could home-schooled children be offered the opportunity of post-16 education at Hogwarts? If there are other schools, is it possible that the 'cream' of these get the opportunity to transfer? Perhaps students re-take exams? Perhaps they even offer some form of adult- learning? None of these things are particularly unusual in UK secondary schools. If Hogwarts is the only school, does it offer teacher-training? A bulky sixthform could add several hundred 'extra' pupils to the register (at my school, the sixthform regularly increased in size by 25 - 50%) - and may sometimes be separated from the lower school (at mealtimes, for sorting, and so on)* - but would give the impression of bustle in the hallways and crowds at the Quidditch matches. my 2pence. * I know Percy is around a lot, but could this be because he is a prefect? From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 8 11:40:32 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 11:40:32 -0000 Subject: I Heard Severus Snape Whine (filk) Message-ID: <9kr8fg+jhte@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23862 I Heard Severus Snape Whine (from PoA, Chap. 14) (To the tune of I Heard It Through the Grapevine) Dedicated to Pippin, Angela Boyko & Lisa THE SCENE: Gryffindor Common Room, as HARRY tells HERMIONE of a surprise encounter with SNAPE after returning from Hogsmeade. Dissolve to SNAPE's office as the music begins SNAPE Ooh, I bet you're wondering how I knew That Hogsmeade you've been sneakin' to You think you're safe with that magic cloak For famous Potter, rules are just a joke I think of James, that headstrong jock And you're a chip off that old block (Dissolve back to the Gryffindor Common Room) HARRY Dontcha know that I heard Severus Snape whine `Gainst Dad and me he's still aligned When I heard Severus Snape whine I yelled at him to shut that grind, Hermy, Hermy "Your grudge you ought be waivin' Since Dad your life was savin', Snapey, ooh ooh ooh" (Dissolve back to SNAPE's office) SNAPE Potter ears ain't supposed to hear The truth because it's far too dear James tried to end my life, you see, Thought it would be great hilarity He saved me only when compelled, When he saw he'd get expelled Doncha see that he was guilty of a Snape crime He put my life right on the line He was guilty of a Snape crime He chickened out of it just in time, Harry, Harry Your father was no hero, To me he was a zero, Harry, ooh ooh ooh (Dissolve back to the Gryffindor Common Room) HARRY Next thing was we had a flap When Snape saw the Marauder's Map When it began to call him names He summoned Lupin from the flames And when it seemed all hope was gone Through the door burst good ol' Ron But then I heard what Lupin opined Of my parents' fate he did remind To their sacrifice I've been blind To contrition I am now inclined, Hermy, Hermy, I must act far more safely, But I'm still hatin' Snapey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! - CMC Harry Potter Filks http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From aiz24 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 11:40:55 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 11:40:55 -0000 Subject: Draco sympathizing? - Grounds - Surprises Message-ID: <9kr8g7+f4eq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23863 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean wrote: > That would also line up very well with the one time I ever > detected a flash of real sympathy toward Harry in Draco. Now, > this may be just my weird take on the matter; I know that most > people feel that when Draco tells Harry (who doesn't know what > the heck he's talking about, at that point), "If it were me, I'd > want revenge!" he's just trying to egg Harry on to do something > dangerous (go after Sirius Black). But somehow I read that line > as Draco being, for once, perfectly sincere. If it were him -- > if someone had betrayed his parents to their deaths -- he would > want revenge. And if Harry felt the same way, Draco would > perfectly understand in a way that Hermione and even Ron might > not. This is a neat interpretation, one I hadn't thought of at all (I thought he was not only egging him on to do something dangerous, but getting a nasty kick out of knowing something about Harry's family that Harry himself doesn't know). So I just went back and re-read the passage, and it almost all fits, but the line I can't square with your interpretation is the "mean smile." Why a mean smile? Another thing that came out of the re-reading was the thought that Draco *doesn't* know that Harry doesn't know the story, even at the end of the conversation. Harry says "what are you talking about?" but Draco assumes that he's just pretending not to know out of cowardice. I always think it's interesting that Draco knows this story and Ron doesn't. Arthur knows it (that's why he's worried Harry will go looking for SB), yet he didn't share that piece of the story with his kids. Steve wrote: >Or maybe I can figure out a way to convince myself that the forest encircles the lawns and is on BOTH > sides of the castle... That's what I've assumed. I figure the forest surrounds the castle for 180 degrees, maybe more. My internal maps tend to be illogical and inconsistent, but I don't think there's anything in canon that contradicts this bit. Rita: > I suppose I'm just > being American to think that if the students have to cross the railway > track for their Hogsmeade outings, that breakfast of each outing day > (and dinner of the night before) would include an announcement from > someone at the Head Table to be careful when crossing the track. Or, alternatively, dinner of each outing day would include a moment of silence in memory of whoever got squashed that day. Maybe there's a pedestrian bridge over the tracks. Add to questions-to-ask-JKR: not specific what's where questions, but just, "Have you drawn a map of the Hogwarts grounds?" The lake/cliffs question has me stumped. I thought of another thing that surprised me completely: Scabbers's true identity. And Ginny's role in CoS. I may as well face it, everything surprises me. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------------------- "What's this?" he asked Aunt Petunia. Her lips tightened as they always did if he dared to ask a question. "Your new school uniform," she said. Harry looked in the bowl again. "Oh," he said, "I didn't realize it had to be so wet." -HP and the Philosopher's Stone ------------------------------------------------------------- From aiz24 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 11:49:16 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 11:49:16 -0000 Subject: Lucius (should be Draco, Shurely?) Malfoy Bet In-Reply-To: <4093E4DD.6E1A6A03.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kr8vs+hhsv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23864 > Does the loser get a Determinator's Kiss? If so, count me in. > > David, prepared to lose his soul for a price ::ahem:: I sense my purity is being bartered away here. Since you are all my cyberfriends, you may have a very chaste cyberkiss, winner, loser, or nonparticipant, and that is *all*! (cyberkisses and -hugs follow) xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo Amy Z From mediaphen at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 12:22:04 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 12:22:04 -0000 Subject: Summary: CoS Chapters 5 an 6 In-Reply-To: <9kl607+96a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kratc+28ch@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23865 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Hi everybody, > > > Question 6: What do you think the car is running on? And why >does the engine die at this point? > Oooh, I have a good one: Liquid Magic. Or, even more appropriate: Liquid Apparation. And you *can't* Apparate into the Hogwart's grounds! So, the FFA stops functioning when it gets within the grounds, reach WW on sheer momentum and throws out the boys. Then the car continues on its own, because the "can't Apparate into Hogwarts grounds"-charm doesn't apply to inanimate objects. Sounds far-fetched? Not so much, IMHO: Liquid Apparation could be an enchanted potion of sorts, containing Floo Powder or something to that effect and enhanced with a hovering charm. Just my two knuts, Martin (Who would like to add "What the..? It's pronounced Her-MY-oh- knee?" to the list of parts that surprised me the most) From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 12:51:56 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 08:51:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: what surprised you the most? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23866 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris wrote: >Do to the recent thread of "why did you start reading the HP books" >I was very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, >surprised you the most. Finding out that Moody wasn't Moody. I liked him so much! And I wasn't expecting JKR to pull the Teacher-Is-Really-Working-For-Voldemort ploy again. I must say, I'll be on "CONSTANT VIGILANCE!" from here on out when it comes to the new teachers...maybe even the old as well. Anyone thing that McGonnagal will go to the Dark Side? And Ginny being involved with the Diary and the Chamber of Secrets surprised me as well. I knew there was something fishy but didn't realize it until the end of the book. Throw in Sirius being innocent, Remus being a werewolf, and Pettigrew being Scabbers and a traitor. I am such a dunce, the first two names should've clued me in. Quirrel having Voldemort on his head was one of those "Ugh, really?" moments. I mean honestly, how many of you would allow an Evil Dark Lord to live on the back of your head? Y'know what? Pretty much everything that wasn't straightforward surprised me. I'm a horrible reader, totally not analytical at all. I need either people to point things out to me or have the author fling the answer in my face. ~Amber, She of Little Knowledge ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com New and Improved!...well, kinda... "These days, it takes a carnival witch to make folk recognize a real unicorn." - Peter S. Beagle, "The Last Unicorn" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From margdean at erols.com Wed Aug 8 12:19:35 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 08:19:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco sympathizing? References: <9kr8g7+f4eq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B712E57.8730F164@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23867 Amy Z wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean wrote: > > > That would also line up very well with the one time I ever > > detected a flash of real sympathy toward Harry in Draco. Now, > > this may be just my weird take on the matter; I know that most > > people feel that when Draco tells Harry (who doesn't know what > > the heck he's talking about, at that point), "If it were me, I'd > > want revenge!" he's just trying to egg Harry on to do something > > dangerous (go after Sirius Black). But somehow I read that line > > as Draco being, for once, perfectly sincere. If it were him -- > > if someone had betrayed his parents to their deaths -- he would > > want revenge. And if Harry felt the same way, Draco would > > perfectly understand in a way that Hermione and even Ron might > > not. > > This is a neat interpretation, one I hadn't thought of at all (I > thought he was not only egging him on to do something dangerous, but > getting a nasty kick out of knowing something about Harry's family > that Harry himself doesn't know). So I just went back and re-read the > passage, and it almost all fits, but the line I can't square with your > interpretation is the "mean smile." Why a mean smile? Draco's face is just shaped like that? :) No, but seriously, the kind of smile Draco would be wearing if he was imagining the kind of thing =he'd= do to someone who betrayed his parents could easily be read as "mean" by Harry. It certainly wouldn't be a =nice= smile. > Another thing that came out of the re-reading was the thought that > Draco *doesn't* know that Harry doesn't know the story, even at the > end of the conversation. Harry says "what are you talking about?" but > Draco assumes that he's just pretending not to know out of cowardice. I wonder how much Draco actually knows about Harry's home situation and how little exposure he's had to the wizarding world. > I always think it's interesting that Draco knows this story and Ron > doesn't. Arthur knows it (that's why he's worried Harry will go > looking for SB), yet he didn't share that piece of the story with his > kids. It's the sort of thing Draco =would= know; I get the feeling he's the kind of kid who listens at keyholes. As for Arthur, he probably didn't want =Ron= to go looking for Sirius Black, knowing how close Ron and Harry are -- and how impulsive Ron can be. We've already seen Ron attacking someone else on a friend's behalf in CoS, where he ends up spitting slugs. --Margaret Dean From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 8 13:00:34 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 13:00:34 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9krd5i+e0vj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23868 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris wrote: > > Quirrel having Voldemort on his head was one of those "Ugh, really?" > moments. I mean honestly, how many of you would allow an Evil Dark Lord to > live on the back of your head? > I'm not sure I'd like having even a very nice wizard living on the back of my head. - CMC From ghealach at atlantic.net Wed Aug 8 13:08:19 2001 From: ghealach at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9kpphg+2b24@eGroups.com> References: <9kpphg+2b24@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <997276099.3b7139c360acb@webmail.atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23869 Quoting Kavitha Kannan : > The fact that it > was such a blunt clue > disappointed me...but Sirius being Padfoot was > clever. I didn't > remember any connection between Sirius and dog. I'm new to the list, and actually pretty new to the HP books (halfway through the 4th one now). I just wanted to comment on this one...the star Sirius is also referred to as the "dog star". I didn't make the connection myself at first, but I wasn't that surprised to find out he was Padfoot. ******************* Jenny ghealach at atlantic.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent through Atlantic.Net Webmail. Get more out of your Web host. Call 1-800-521-5881 to learn more. From tabouli at unite.com.au Wed Aug 8 13:07:40 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:07:40 +1000 Subject: Hair and sunshine, paparazzi (sp?), MoM Message-ID: <008901c1200b$ebb4ac60$af92aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 23870 Kavitha: > Out of curiousity, why is the Dark always considered evil? Light can > kill, if you're in the sun too long, but noone ever died from sitting > in a shadow. (that was very poetic of you Kavitha!) > That always annoys me...but that's just one of my > quirks. *Shrug* I love the fact that Draco, the epitome of foulness > is blond and pale while Harry, the do-good hero, has black hair and, > i think, more tanned skin. Cliched blond heros bother me at times. I personally suspect JKR of a little reverse hairism... look at *all* the blond people in the series! (btw, does anyone know the correct use of blond/blonde in English? Strangely enough, we seem to adopt the French usage minus the Ss with blonde women and blond men. I've always wondered about this). Not only are all three Malfoys blond, we also have Dudley and Aunt Petunia, the irritating Fleur and ridiculous Gilderoy Lockhart in the fair-haired ranks. I suppose Seamus and Susan Bones are also fair, but they're hardly major characters. How about black hair? Harry & James, Hagrid, Tom Riddle, Snape. Interesting. Red hair? Lily, all the Weasleys and Dumbledore. Hmm. And Fawkes is a blond/redhead combo! Hmmm. Gryffindor's house colours are red and gold, after all... David: > The world needs her. Think how much worse Fudge would be without her. At least he tries to think how his actions will play in the press which is a bit of a restraint.> ...and jenny from ravenclaw: > David, David, David. I usually love your posts but this one just screamed at me to respond. I tried to resist... How can the world need Rita Skeeter? I need her like I need a hole in the head. I loved Rita as a character precisely *because* she is a marvellous parody of all those nasty bloodsucking journalists out there (see also Richard Finch in Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason). The Quick Quotes Quill was glorious. Then again, I'm always one to separate what I like in a character, and what I like in a real person. In real life, alas, I'm inclined to agree with jenny. Though being me, my cultural bloodhound pricked up its ears here. It's reliably rumoured that England has the nastiest tabloid journalists in the world: perhaps the ol' puncturing inflated reputations and "keep the bastards honest" cynicism is one of the reasons why... (any thoughts, David?) Katie: > It was just a lapse of judgement on the part of two children...and while it did have major repercussions with the ministry (having to memory charm all those who saw the car, etc...) I wonder how quick the MoM is off the mark with its memory charms? Surely sightings like these would make (at the tabloid) papers pretty fast. Do they always manage to wipe 'em immediately, or might they end up having to change newspaper articles and memory charm journalists as well? Tabouli [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Wed Aug 8 13:10:04 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:10:04 -0400 Subject: Why did Fake!Moody attack Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23871 > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy" wrote: > > Hi, I am a brand newbie here so please forgive me if my q's are > > repeats of already-asked questions. > > > > If Mad Eye Moody was really Barty Crouch Jr. in disguise, why did > he > > turn Draco into a ferret at the beginning of GoF? Was he trying to > > pretend to be nice to Harry and on 'his side'? > > Moody hates the Malfoys. Lucius is a Death Eater who walked free > instead of standing up for Voldemort. > Lucius isn't just a death eater who walked free. Lucius is a death eater who walked free AND managed to either keep his positions of power & influence, or at least regain them within ten years (reference to his hogwarts governership). Even if BCJr feels NO loyalty to his father at all, how can he help but be resentful of the fact that Lucius Malfoy, Death Eater, walked free AND kept positions of power, while Barty Crouch lost power within the ministry, didn't become Minister of Magic, and had to deal with idiots like Bagman just for being related to a Death Eater who didn't walk free. And don't forget - this was *not* the first time that BCjr saw Draco Malfoy. He was in the Top Box, watching, during the World Cup - wasn't he actually *next to* Lucius? He must've wanted to *kill* him - I can just imagine the resentment festering over that week - he must've looked at the fight between Draco & Harry as a *real treat*. Of course, IMHO (no canon support, just human psychology) I would bet that BCjr made the Slytherin DaDA class hell - especially for Draco. From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Wed Aug 8 13:15:32 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:15:32 -0400 Subject: Clarification: Warlocks Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05369@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 23872 Now that I've had some sleep, I'm doing a lot better. It occurs to me I need to go back and clarify something. It really was on my list, and then Heidi called on me to talk about Lucius and I just didn't get to it until today. So to Gwyneth and Rita: I apologise. The house elf in the back of my head warned me to check Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog Trading Card before I sent that message about Warlocks (Chief or otherwise), and I got distracted and forgot to do so. Gwyneth, Rita is absolutely right: the title Chief Warlock is counted among Dumbledore's accolades. As for Rita's suggestions about what JKR means by warlock, those are some good ideas. It's entirely possible that like Mugwump, Warlock is a titular honorific given to a certain type of wizard. If so, I rather think it might even be on the order of a Gentleman's Club type of thing, not necessarily political. Or it could be the name of some medal or award he's won. In the absence of any corroborating evidence, though, I'm going to stick with my simpler explanation. If you're right, though, it opens up a number of possibilities! Gwendolyn Grace From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 8 13:25:38 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:25:38 -0400 Subject: Saying the Name Message-ID: <290AB0A3.324B1151.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23873 Frankis & Stein "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" >From the Office of the President My associate, Statistica Stein, was clearing out some of her old files the other day, and came across the following. I report it here as it sheds some light on an issue which is still dividing the Wizarding World. As I recall, it created something of a stir at the time, largely because the security breach was never traced. The Daily Prophet, 4 July 1981. Split at Top of Phoenix Order: Forces of Light Divided >From Our Special Correspondent, Rita Skeeter Top Mugwump and Headmaster of Hogwarts Albus Dumbledore is having trouble controlling his fractious troops. Students of his hands-off style will not be surprised to hear that a dispute about naming the Dark Lord has riven his followers into competing camps. For Daily Prophet readers I can exclusively reveal the minutes of a top-secret meeting of the shadowy 'Order of the Phoenix' which he commands with iron indecision. Dumbledore: I call the meeting to order. Our main topic today is the tactics to be used to keep the Dark Lord from harming James and Lily Potter. Any suggestions? Hagrid: Before we decide that, can I jus' ask, when yeh say his name, do yeh pronounce the T at the end? McGonagall: Of course you do. It's spelt Voldemort, so it's pronounced Voldemort. The answer is in the question. Surely someone of even your limited academic attainments can see that, Hagrid. Dumbledore: I... Hagrid: But I think it's French. Yeh can' trust the French. Stands to reason an evil Dark Wizard would take a French name like Voldemore. Dumbledore: If... McGonagall: Really, Hagrid, we all know Voldemort is English. Anyone who has read Hogwarts: A History would know that nearly all Hogwarts problems have come from the Sassenach foe beating down the just... Potter: If I might suggest a compromise. Perhaps we can move forward here by calling him You-Know-Who. Then we can all agree on how to defeat him. Hagrid: Yeah, I like tha'. Yeh-Know-Who, yeah, I can live with tha'. McGonagall: James, it surely is a little colloquial. If you must use it, at least say You-Know-Whom. But if we are to have a euphemism of this sort, I suggest He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is more fitting for... Hagrid: No, You-Know-Who At this point the proceedings are interrupted by a knock on the door. Dumbledore lifts his head out of his hands and says 'Enter'; a greasy black-haired sallow-featured hook-nosed young man enters. Dumbledore (twinkling): My friends, may I introduce our latest recruit, Mr Severus Snape, who has provided invaluable service against the Death Eaters. Snape: (Looks carefully round the room, takes out wand) Coleopterasplat. (Wand turns into a fly swatter) At this point your correspondent remembered an urgent prior engagement and had to leave this most interesting discussion. Our regular readers will take his association with such an unsavoury person as Mr Snape as further evidence of Albus Dumbledores failing grip on his work. ... There is a little more, but this provides the gist. I hope those not around at that momentous time can see how the effects are still with us today. Best Regards David Frankis President, Frankis & Stein Infurn Alley London __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From mindyatime at juno.com Wed Aug 8 13:26:21 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:26:21 -0400 Subject: Some questions to throw atcha Message-ID: <20010808.092630.-492901.14.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23874 1) How did Molly & Arthur get home from Kings Cross if Ron & Harry snuck off with the car? Didn't they notice it missing? Or am I missing something? (I'm sure thay could've apparated, but didn't they immediately realize that something happened to the car?) 2) How do you think, do Hermione's parents take all this magic & wizardry from their daughter? Can they keep their mouths shut & not share it with the muggle world? Do they feel 'inferior' b/c they're 'muggles'? (I definitely feel like a muggle!) Do they feel bad for their daughter that she's a mudblood? Do you think they're on to all the escapades she is involved in at school? 3) Dementors -- are they creatures or humans? Are they born? Do the breed? Are they just created? Are they all at Azkaban? If not, where are they 'raised'? 4) I am still puzzled about the Marauder's Map -- why didn't Harry or Fred n' George see Peter a.k.a. Scabbers if they saw everyone else? And Sirius a.k.a. the big black dog? Snape did and they didn't? 5) In SS, how did Voldie get back to Albania after Quirrel died? If he was back in Britain he could've hooked up w/one of his old cronies like Malfoy or s/thing.... If he had the capability of 'getting back all the way to Albania' couldn't he get around here too? From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Wed Aug 8 13:52:54 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:52:54 -0400 Subject: Pondering Lucius and Draco Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B0536A@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 23875 Susanna wrote > > First things first: This was a bloody brilliant analysis. Allow me > though to disagree in some points. Thanks; go ahead. > I don't think of Lucius Malfoy as "The Man Who Did It All by > Himself". This is an ancient family, whose offspring simply think > themselves entitled to everything: Privilege, respect, power, > fulfilment of all their desires. No; allow me to clarify. I don't think Lucius is a "self-made" wizard, either, nor did I mean to imply that he credits no one but himself with his power or prestige. When I said he did it all on his own, I meant only that he did not credit his father with any influence on his behaviour or his education. He certainly inherited a great fortune, a legacy, a virtual empire even, but he retained it and came into that inheritance without any help from Dad on the social front. As far as he's concerned, he's _always_ been an aristocrat, so why shouldn't Draco have an inherent sense of his own nobility? Does that make more sense? [Then there's his whole relationship with his mother, but we won't go into that here. :^)] > Anyway, this man is much more an incarnation of the > power of evil than Voldemort will ever be, because he masters the art > of fooling people like Fudge into believing he's good and the art of > escaping the ones who instinctively know he's bad (like Arthur > Weasley). Evil characters like Lucius will always get the better of > the straightforward good ones, because they excel in the art of > making the good ones ridiculous. Arthur Weasley can be right a > hundred times- one word of Lucius will make him poor Arthur, with too > many children and no money, never promoted and lost in some foolish > idea of protecting Muggles. Voldemort is evil, but Lucius is the > villain with style and he damned well knows that. > Heck, yeah. This is what I meant about knowing _when_ to be nice and when not to be. He is a courtier, a player. One of the first pieces of advice we see him give Draco is this: "And I would remind you that it is not -- prudent -- to appear less than fond of Harry Potter, not when most of our kind regard him as the hero who made the Dark Lord disappear." (CoS, Ch. 4) Clearly, this is a man who understands politics and people. He manipulated the Board of Governors and I'm certain he has ruined several careers, although in ways that are difficult to pinpoint. He doesn't "frame" people, but he knows exactly where and when to deliver killing blows. As a side note, I don't believe Lucius actually works for the Ministry: I believe he serves on several committees and associates with high-level officials there in an almost advisory capacity, not as a political official, but as some sort of expert or corporate representative. The Malfoys are too old and rich a family to "work" for a living. He probably serves on other governing boards than Hogwarts, possibly Gringotts or several major wizarding industries, such as the Wireless Network, the Daily Prophet, or other lucrative ventures. As such, he's got access to a lot of information, and I'm sure he's not above seeding rumours where he needs them to get what he wants. The worst thing is that he is unrepentant. He sees himself as protecting his own interests and those of his family. I think he can acknowledge that aspects of what he does are shady, low, and downright unethical, and I don't think he really worries about it at all. This, to me, is what makes him unredeemable. He doesn't seem to relish evil, with any handwringing or maniacal laughter, but he calmly and competently sets about others' detriment to further his own goals. And has the sense and the ability to disguise it all as civic-minded beneficence. > > > > That would put draco very near Barty Crouch jr.- only heir of an old > wizarding family, loaded with tradition and expectations, bound to > run wild and become a rebel to his father (because the mothers, in > both families, don't seem too important). Following this thread, > Draco would be bound to go over to the good side, just as Barty jr. > went to the bad. Not because he's redeemed, but because this is the > worst thing he can do to his father. Yep, that's certainly a possibility. Heidi's version of Lucius was a Barty, in a way. His fascination with the Dark Arts was a rebellion, and an expression of freedom and adventure for him in his youth; now that he's older, it's a little more tangled up with everything else he's done in the meantime. My Draco isn't quite that spiteful to his father. Yet. > In that case I'd say he would turn directly to Dumbledore- > Snape is much too ambiguous to fit the purpose. I agree that Snape is ambiguous now; that's why I say he must position himself in Draco's estimation. I don't think Draco would ever go to Dumbledore. He's too conditioned to think of him as a fool. He may realise he has to change, but he's still a product of pride, and going to Dumbledore, hat in hand, would be too humiliating. He'd balk. But Snape, precisely because he has been inside the circles where Draco and his father swim with the other sharks, could understand the conflict of feelings that Draco will experience. Snape is the head of his house, and someone who has always favoured him in class. Snape is more accessible to him, therefore, than Dumbledore. Also, Draco can talk to Snape less conspicuously than to Dumbledore, and for a while, even after deciding to turn away from Voldemort, I think Draco will be looking for a way to straddle the line, to play both sides against the middle for his own advantage. It will take him a little longer to realise that he will have to choose one loyalty and stick with it. Snape can help him see that; he wouldn't accept it coming from Dumbledore. > As I said, a villain with style. Draco's all-present, unattainable > ideal. As long as Draco is still a boy, he'll just cuddle up in > Lucius' shadow. Right, and he's not mature enough yet to know how to be subtle in his chiding. He's got Crabbe and Goyle for cronies, but does he really command a lot of respect in the house? Don't know--we never see any older Slytherins except on the Quidditch team, and Marcus obviously was bribed by the brooms. Pansy, IMO, is as self-serving as any of them, and she sees in Draco the potential for the good life. I don't support fanon sexy!Draco. > As soon as he'll develop a personality of his own, he will feel the need to emerge. Either he becomes an even bigger > villain with even more style (he could kill Lucius to become LV's > no.1), or he goes in the opposite direction. The third option is > suicide, even if that sounds very dramatic. The other possibility is that he will grow to resent his father's competence, and turn away (or as you say, kill him) because he feels living up to Dad's image is impossible. Anyway, I could go on and on, but I won't. Gwen From iciclechild at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 14:05:40 2001 From: iciclechild at earthlink.net (Christopher Hortin) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:05:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some questions to throw atcha In-Reply-To: <20010808.092630.-492901.14.mindyatime@juno.com> References: <20010808.092630.-492901.14.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <63g2ntsg98bdm2jk0kbnvojf28us5phvln@4ax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23876 [this message contains minor spoilers for all books. You've been warned.] "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: >1) How did Molly & Arthur get home from Kings Cross if Ron & Harry snuck >off with the car? Didn't they notice it missing? Or am I missing >something? (I'm sure thay could've apparated, but didn't they immediately >realize that something happened to the car?) > Apparating seems like the obvious choice for getting home (Ron mentions it when he and Harry take the car). Of course they would've noticed if Harry or Ron didn't walk through the wall with them, and when they walked out and saw the car missing, all they had to do was put two and two together. >2) How do you think, do Hermione's parents take all this magic & wizardry >from their daughter? Can they keep their mouths shut & not share it with >the muggle world? Sure. My parents keep secrets about me, for which I am eternally grateful. >Do they feel 'inferior' b/c they're 'muggles'? It's hard to say, considering that we've never seen much of them asides from a brief meeting in Gringotts. I think that, for Book 5, Rowling should have Harry and Ron spend the summer at her house. I doubt that it will happen though, with that whole "Voldie is back" thing going on. >Do they feel bad for their daughter that she's a mudblood? I doubt that they realize the implications. I'm not sure if Hermione would inform them of such things, especially if they feel inferior all ready for being muggles. Of course, I'm not considering teenage angst. "I'm a mudblood, and it's all your fault!" >Do you think they're on to all the escapades she is involved in >at school? > Prolly not. If you were Hermione, would you tell your parents even *half* of the stuff you got into at Hogwarts? "My first year was a blast! I was almost killed by this ogre and nearly eaten by a three-headed hound from Hell. My second year was a little fuzzy; that was the year a Basilisk turned me to stone. My third year was interesting; I got to hang out with a werewolf and an outlaw on the Wizard's Ten Most Wanted list. My fourth year was kinda boring in comparison. The worst that happened was getting huge teeth and getting an awful story published about me in the newspaper. Fortunately, neither of those things prevented me from going to my first school dance. Things got kind of glum though when Cedric died at the hand of a megalomaniac who wants to wipe muggles off the map. Oh yeah, and you guys are muggles." >3) Dementors -- are they creatures or humans? Are they born? Do the >breed? Are they just created? Are they all at Azkaban? If not, where are >they 'raised'? > They're raised in my closet next to my dirty socks and underwear hamper. Explains a lot, doesn't it? >4) I am still puzzled about the Marauder's Map -- why didn't Harry or >Fred n' George see Peter a.k.a. Scabbers if they saw everyone else? And >Sirius a.k.a. the big black dog? Snape did and they didn't? > Prolly because they wern't looking for Peter. I'm still not sure how big the map is, or how big the text boxes that appear on the map are. My guess is that with the size of Hogwarts and the number of students attending, something like that would be easy to miss. >5) In SS, how did Voldie get back to Albania after Quirrel died? Um...floated? I'm not sure about this one. >If he had the capability of 'getting back all the way to Albania' >couldn't he get around here too? > Depends. Where's 'here'? 8-) ~Chris, the Icicle Child~ (don't look behind you! It's Voldemort in a small town) -- [ E-mail - iciclechild at earthlink.net ] [ ICQ# - 119645068 - iciclechild ] [ "I hate to ask, ] [ but are you ignoring me?" -My mother ] From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 14:30:52 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:30:52 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail as Gollum (was What HP Character Scares You Most?) References: <9kntbs+a5b7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <015301c12016$ba4ca8c0$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 23877 Rachelle wrote, > [...] I believe it was Frodo (sorry, very > rusty on LOTR) who had the chance to kill Gollum, but didn't, and > Gandalf said almost exactly the same thing about Gollum that > Dumbledore said about Wormtail. The Pettigrew - Gollum link is a pretty clear one. However, I expect that Pettigrew will make some kind of voluntary choice, as opposed to Gollum, who saved Frodo (and Middle Earth) through an act of betrayal that just happened to destroy both him andthe ring. In LOTR Gollum is utlimately beyond redemption, even though there is a spark of good in him. I think Pettigrew has better chances. > P.S. And when Gollum takes the ring from Frodo, doesn't he do it by > biting off one of Frodo's fingers? Hmmmmmm. Curious. There is already a bit of a parallel there, albeit skewed. Gollum bites off Frodo's finger in his act of betrayal; Pettigrew blows off his own finger in his. Thanks for mentioning that--and I'll add it to the FAQ! Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From mariannayus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 15:00:17 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9kpn8g+2isc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010808150017.9952.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23878 If I have to pick the classical red herring/plot twist, it would be a tie between finding out Quirrell/Snape bad-good. and when Lupin embraced Sirius. In PS/SS I was pretty sure Snape was the evil one all along, and I never even gave a thought to poor Quirrell, all afraid and ineffective. He and Wormtail both found out that mediocrity and inefficiency are the best cover. No one would think a weakling is capable of betrayal. However, if I had to pick the most "OMG, did not expect it, WHAT????" reaction, it was in CoS, when Lockhart went down with Ron and Harry, and cold bloodedly explained to them what he planned to do. I knew he was selfish, a braggart and a phony, but this was too horrible to contemplate. Marsha/Marianna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From jlwc222 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 15:07:35 2001 From: jlwc222 at yahoo.com (jlwc222 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 15:07:35 -0000 Subject: Draco sympathizing? In-Reply-To: <9kr8g7+f4eq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9krkjn+lj4e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23879 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > I always think it's interesting that Draco knows this story and Ron > doesn't. Arthur knows it (that's why he's worried Harry will go > looking for SB), yet he didn't share that piece of the story with his kids. I think this is consistant with what happened in GoF. Lucius told Draco about the "big event", namely the Triwizard Tournament taking place at Hogwarts that year, while all the Weasleys would do is hint at it. I think the two families parenting styles play a big part in this. The Malfoys probably take the position of "knowledge is power" while the Weasleys take a more honorable approach--the Triwizard Cup is supposed to be a secret until the school year starts (that's the impression I get) so they don't even tell their own kids. And with regards to Harry's parents, how many of us would tell our 13-year- olds, "You know that escaped convict, well, he was responsible for the murder of your best friend's parents"? What kid needs to live with that knowledge? Joelle From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 15:14:42 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 15:14:42 -0000 Subject: JKR's writing as craft (Was FAQF) In-Reply-To: <9kqig1+m6he@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9krl12+snd8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23880 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Prefectmarcus:" 'That's not a Quick Quotes Quill, is > it?' 'No sir. Those things are garbage.' Does anybody reading this > recognize the reference?" > > Actually, we probably all do. There's a lot of people on this list who > know this tale as well as anyone anywhere. Then would you please be so kind as to tell me the author and the title? I would appreciate it. > Prefectmarcus:"The rest [fanfic] were very forgettable. So I suspect, > at least for me, there is more to it that just good characters. True, > they are an essential ingredient, but certainly not the only or the > most important one." > > Most fanfics don't give us anything good in characterization, and the > writing is usually execrable. The writing is important. > > What do we spend our time talking about so much? The characters. The > Trio. Malfoy. Snape. Dumbledore. People a hundred years from now will > know who they are, as they know who Hamlet, Macbeth, and Sherlock > Holmes are. > > There's been stories about apprentice wizards before, and about kids > who had a target on their backs before. There's books about > combinations of all these elements, and many of them are well written. > But they don't have Harry Potter in them, do they? Jim, I am not arguing that good characterization is not important. It is. However, I do not believe it is the only or most important element in a story. Take a look at "A Christmas Carol" by Dickens. Surely if any story could be called a classic, that one is. But what character, with the possible -- possible -- exception of Scrooge, could be describe as anything more than two dimentional? Now I am talking the book, not the zillions of adaptations attempting to breath life into cardboard cutouts. Most of Dickens characters are on the shallow side. Oliver Twist is another example. For the opposite view, how many movie reviews have you read that essentially said, "In spite of the valient efforts of Joe Blow, the movie was a lost cause?" Joe Blow was working his hardest to provide a good, three-dimentional character, but the material stunk. > J.K Rowling is a fine writer. I've always thought so. Her stories > wouldn't be what they are if the ideas didn't make it to the page so > clearly. But the language she uses isn't art by itself, as it can be > with writers like Tolkien, Twain, or Patrick O'Brian. I beg to differ. An art teacher once told me -- I am not an artist -- that most people think that the pinnacle of artistic endevour is photo-realism. That is a mistaken notion. All the greats achieved that at a very early stage. What the greats end up striving for is minimum of effort. He illustrated this by showing a painting done hundreds of years ago by some great artist whose name even I recognized. It was a picture of a man. He turned it upside down and the painting became just two or three seemly random splotches of color. Did you ever watched Bob (Bill?) Ross? Sadly, he's dead now. My family used to call him "The Doodder Man". He started every half hour show with a blank or nearly blank canvas. Using a knife, a fan brush, a house brush, and a small brush he would throw up a dab of paint here, a scrap there, dooder this, dooder that. By the end of the program he had a stunning landscape you'd swear took hours to achieve. Never denigrate the simple things. They are generally a lot harder to achieve than the complex. Marcus From mariannayus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 15:51:40 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Draco's Redemption/Sirius Black In-Reply-To: <9kqct0+jqs0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010808155140.77637.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23881 > That reminds me of something I've been puzzling over > lately (for the > sake of a fanfic): at that point in the book, > supposedly everyone > except Sirius himself and the rat believes that > Sirius betrayed the > Potters, killed all those Muggles, and was a valued > servant of Lord > Voldemort. It would be in character for Draco, > believing that and > being at that time an ignorantly enthusiastic > follower of the Dark > Lord, to regard the Dark Wizard Black with > admiration and envy, > daydreaming of the day when he, too, can do a great > service for the > Dark Lord and kill so many Muggles with one curse, > but be clever > enough not to be captured by MoM. *snip* I don't think it's true that only Sirius/PP knew who the real trator was before the shrieking shack confronatation. Some (top-rank) death eaters definitely knew. I bet Lucius did (but did not tell Draco for obvious reasons). The reason PP staged the elaborate frame-up was so that the DE would believe he was dead, and not come after him, since they believed (to quote Sirius) "the double crosser double crossed them". Framing Sirius was only a side benefit. According to Sirius, many of DE in Azkaban blame PP for where they are (shout things in their sleep). So, prior to shrieking shack, people who know the real story are: Sirius, PP + (at least some)DE in Azkaban, and I presume by extrapolation any top rank DE that walked free (thus not Snape who was not top rank, but someone like Lucius). Lucius would not share the info with Draco, but inwardly I am sure would be very amused at the situation. Marsha/Marianna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 15:56:32 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 15:56:32 -0000 Subject: Castle Called Hogwats - FILK Message-ID: <9krnfg+56sd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23882 Ok, guys... This is my first filk so beart with me... It's horrible (especially around the "Teacher in black" part,) but I figured I would post it anyway... ______________________________________ To the tune of "Castle on a Cloud" from Les Miserables... (Scene - Harry is in his room at the Dursleys during the summer holidays, longing for his days at Hogwarts) HARRY There is a castle called Hogwarts. I like to go there 'stead o' the Dursleys'. Aren't any cupbords in which I sleep... Not in the castle called Hogwarts. There is a room that's full of owls. There are a thousand boys and girls, Nobody really knows for sure, Not in the castle called Hogwarts. There is a teacher all in black, stares at me and my scar - it hurts... His name is Snape and he is scary... He says, "Harry, I hate you very much..." I know a place where magic reigns. I know a place where wizards train. Muggles at all are not allowed, Not in the castle called Hogwearts! From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 05:46:17 2001 From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 02:46:17 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: what surprised you the most? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23883 > Chris wrote: > > >I was very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, > surprised you the most. > I was surprised to find out about Neville's backround it was interesting to see him as anything other than an inept student(except at Herbology) It gives him a third dimension, upp until now we really only see the rest of Harry's fellow students, with the exception f Hermione and Ron and the Weasley family, as two dimensional characters, it was interesting to see Neville from that third dimension. Sincerely Heidi H Yahoo! Groups Sponsor _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From usergoogol at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 16:20:56 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 16:20:56 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <012801c06d06$32d9cda0$4cdafea9@EAGLE> Message-ID: <9krot8+mtst@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23884 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon Biber" wrote: > I wonder, has anyone yet tried to interpret what Jo means by the name of the > next book? > > I would appreciate any pointers to good fanfic. > > Simon. Well... the popular theory is that they are the "old crowd" set up to fight Voldemort. I guess that they worked to overthrow Voldemort back in the seventies (when he was in power.) As for the individuals? Remus Lupin- Everyone's favorite character. He was the friend of James Potter, Sirius Black, and the rest of the group. He was also the DADA teacher in PoA. Arabella Figg- She took care of Harry when the Dursleys were doing something fun. Mundungus Fletcher- He was mentioned on page 38 of Chamber of Secrets. He was investigated for having shrinking keys and a biting kettle. He also tried to put a hex on Arthur Weasley... intriguing, don't you think? Phoenixes- They get reincarnated in a burst of fire. Harry has a feather in his wand, as does Voldemort. Fawkes- Dumbledore's Phoenix. The particuar phoenix which saved Harry in Chamber of Secrets. He's also in Voldemort's wand, as well Harry's wand. Well... that's as much info as I think is available about the whole concept. It definitally seems inportant. I can't wait until book five! From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 8 19:05:01 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 19:05:01 -0000 Subject: Saying the Name and Ms. Figg In-Reply-To: <290AB0A3.324B1151.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9ks2gt+jjrv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23885 Hello all, The article was hillarious! I laughed till I cried! question about Ms. Figg....she's mentioned in the end of GoF, right? Is that the same Ms. Figg that lives beside Harry? The one that Dumbledore mentions? If so, that would imply she's a wizard. Right? I realise this has probably been discussed before, but I actually just got that the last time I read the book. I'm pretty proud of myself for that one! Hugs to all, J From meckelburg at foni.net Wed Aug 8 19:15:19 2001 From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 19:15:19 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ks347+qvre@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23886 Hi All, After a one-week travel to my in-laws( Hey, I survived!) I'll try to catch up on the digests. Zhe big surprises were, of course, all mentioned before. One thing that really bugged me though, was Ginnys age!! I really couldn't believe she was going to Hogwarts in CoS. When I read PS, I imagined Ginny to be between 5 and 7 years old. Molly was holding her hand all the time, the "which platform"-scene and her crying when the train left. Her voice was described as that of a small girl, not a ten-year- old. My daughter is nearly 8 and she would certainly complain if I try to hold her hand all the time! just my 2sickles back to lurkdom Mecki From booleanfox at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 20:07:17 2001 From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (Julie Balfour) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 20:07:17 -0000 Subject: Sirius in Shrieking Shack Message-ID: <9ks65l+kigb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23887 I have just finished reading the fantastic FAQs on the Lexicon (finally!) and they are truly fantastic - well done to all involved. Normally I am a bit of a lurker, but something has been bugging me for a while and I didn't see it mentioned anywhere yet - if it has been discussed please point me to the archives! In the Shrieking Shack, when Harry thinks that Sirius was the murderer of his parents, it seem to imply that he intends to kill Sirius (he raises his wand as he want to kill,but then Crookshanks jumps onto Sirius) - but how exactly does he intend to do this? There seems to be great tension in the scene - as if Harry actually killing someone with magic is a possibility! He has not even heard of Avada Kedavra at this point, so I don't see what we are supposed to think he is going to do,exactly... Any thoughts/opinions on this? From devajones55d at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 20:23:18 2001 From: devajones55d at yahoo.com (Deva) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some questions to throw atcha In-Reply-To: <997285974.3248.69718.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010808202318.32227.qmail@web14704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23888 "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" asked: 2) How do you think, do Hermione's parents take all this magic & wizardry from their daughter? Can they keep their mouths shut & not share it with the muggle world? Do they feel 'inferior' b/c they're 'muggles'? (I definitely feel like a muggle!) Do they feel bad for their daughter that she's a mudblood? Do you think they're on to all the escapades she is involved in at school? ~Chris, the Icicle Child~ responded: Prolly not. If you were Hermione, would you tell your parents even *half* of the stuff you got into at Hogwarts? "My first year was a blast! I was almost killed by this ogre and nearly eaten by a three-headed hound from Hell. My second year was a little fuzzy; that was the year a Basilisk turned me to stone. *snip* Actually, I'm kind of curious as to how the school dealt with this situation. I can see why Dumbledore wouldn't want to let all muggle parents know that there's something going around the school Petrifying muggle-born students but, hey, no one has actually died yet, this time. I can just imagine the rush of owls as parents demand for their students to be returned home. But do you let the parents of the kids who were attacked know? How much do you tell them if you do? Do the parents have a right to know? (I think they do, but then, I've dealt with overreacting parents at soccer games. I can't even imagine what the reaction would be to an actual emergency.) IIRC, all the kids came back the next year, so did Dumbledore dispatch staff members to talk to the parents and explain that the problem really had been dealt with? Deva P.S. Thanks to Heidi, Gwendolyn Grace and Susanna for all of the insights on Lucius. I'm now examining his character more closely than I've ever examined a character for a school assignment. ===== "The universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper." ~ Eden Phillpots ~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From booleanfox at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 20:24:14 2001 From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (Julie Balfour) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 20:24:14 -0000 Subject: My Previous Post Message-ID: <9ks75e+bpqh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23889 Maybe I should just clarify for allyou LOON mebers that I meant to put 'murderer' when talking about Sirius - I meant in the hypothetical sense -i.e. that Harry thought that Sirius had betrayed his parents and thereore, in essence, 'murdered' them...phew! (Don't want to run foul of the LOONies!) From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Aug 8 20:48:55 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:48:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The pupil numbers debate- intakes post 11? In-Reply-To: <9kr6ue+1111s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B714347.13421.398D8C6@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 23890 On 8 Aug 2001, at 11:14, vheggie at yahoo.com wrote: > There was a 'second intake', particularly of boys, [who seemed > to blossom later than girls :)], at thirteen for many schools, and it > wasn't unusual for schools to take in extra pupils at age 14-15 (for > the two year run-up to the GCSE exams) and at 16-17, to enter into the > sixth form. I always had the idea that Lupin was admitted late, since he implies he was excluded until Dumbledore became headmaster. Which raises a couple of other questions: -- Were there any headmasters between Dippet and Dumbledore? -- Does Dippet's picture in the office ever nag Dumbledore? ("You let a werewolf in? What are you, nuts?") -- Dave From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 8 20:52:58 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 20:52:58 -0000 Subject: Some questions to throw atcha In-Reply-To: <20010808202318.32227.qmail@web14704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9ks8ra+dk9v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23891 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deva wrote: > Actually, I'm kind of curious as to how the school > dealt with this situation. I can see why Dumbledore > wouldn't want to let all muggle parents know that > there's something going around the school Petrifying > muggle-born students but, hey, no one has actually > died yet, this time. I can just imagine the rush of > owls as parents demand for their students to be > returned home. But do you let the parents of the kids > who were attacked know? How much do you tell them if > you do? Do the parents have a right to know? Presumably Dumbledore had to let the parents know something, if only to explain why a letter-writer like Penelope was suddenly not writing. No doubt some of them were extremely upset, but what could they do? They're in no position to make demands. If they complain too loudly the MOM will obliviate them. There's no way they can even *get* to the school. Of course when a wizard kid with big shot parents like Draco gets hurt, it's a different story. Pippin From r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 20:57:05 2001 From: r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com (r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 20:57:05 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? Message-ID: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23892 > Kelly Shiflet wrote: > The scene that made me do a double take was in GoF, where Harry was > in the infirmery and he had just finished telling Dumbledore all the > details in the triwizard tournament. Then Mrs.Weasley embraced him > in a motherly hug, and that Harry thought that it felt good, > because he had never had a comforting parental hug. This was a very moving scene for me, the striking notion that this boy had grown up without so much as a mother's hug. I admit I welled up a little bit. And I also shed a few tears for Cedric, the "spare". How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that you care to admit? Red Queen P.S. Like Kelly, I too have noticed that JKR knows how to throw in a timely diversion to keep things from getting too sappy. Just another piece of her genius. From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 21:03:45 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 21:03:45 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ks9fh+1g3e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23893 Some of the saddest moments for me were definitly the whole Cedric incident... Also, when Harry saw his family in the mirrior of Erised and also the Priori incantem (sp??) - those were really moving scenes... Meg Rose From catdavey at aol.com Wed Aug 8 21:27:59 2001 From: catdavey at aol.com (Catriona) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 21:27:59 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks9fh+1g3e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ksasv+t6bm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23894 "Meg Rose" wrote: > Some of the saddest moments for me were definitly the whole Cedric > incident... Also, when Harry saw his family in the mirrior of Erised > and also the Priori incantem (sp??) - those were really moving > scenes... I have to agree that the saddest scene from all four books is the aftermath of Cedrics death from the moment where Harry brings back his body right through to the end. Particularly well expressed is the description of Harrys change in perception of other people and of friendship when he leaves the infirmary, it is written succinctly but with real feeling. Another from GoF that I find particularly powerful is the trial of Barty Crouch Jr. The devotion displayed by the woman (who I have always assumed to be Mrs Lestrange) is wonderfully fanatical and gives an alternative to the view that all DE's follow Voldemort because they are scared. She is a true believer. ~Incitita~ From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 21:35:24 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 21:35:24 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ksbas+hre8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23895 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., r_e_d_queen at y... wrote: > How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that > you care to admit? Just too numerous to mention. Cedric's death, obviously and the whole aftermath - in particular, Harry not wanting to let go of Cedric's body, Sirius' reactions when Harry is recounting to Dumbledore what happened, the hug from Molly Weasley, Harry's misery at Sirius having to go to the "old crowd" when he desperately needed a parent - and then, him having to go back to the Dursleys. Apart from that, the thing that really chokes me up every time I read/hear them are the scenes between Sirius and Harry - Sirius convincing Harry he is innocent, Sirius' baffled and anguished dialogue with Wormtail on the whole betrayal, and most of all, Harry thinking that he can go and live with Sirius, only to have his hopes dashed almost immediately afterwards. Lupin leaving as well was pretty miserable - leaving Hogwarts, going out into an unknown future, an (almost) friendless world... Horrible. There are lots of other scenes which have an affect when I don't expect them to - but the above are the ones which really do upset me everytime I read them. Catherine From ochfd42 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 22:02:52 2001 From: ochfd42 at yahoo.com (Angela Boyko) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 18:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010808220252.37497.qmail@web11704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23896 So many to choose from! I'll skip the ones that have been mentioned. My saddest moment from PS is when Dumbledore tells Harry of how he has been touched by the pure love of his mother. A lot of the Dursley scenes are sad because of the abuse. Particularly in CoS when Harry was forced to share cold soup with Hedwig before being rescued. It was very sad in PoA when it became apparent that Harry wasn't going to be able to live with Sirius after all. Oh! And before the Third Task, when Harry was told the candidate's families were meeting with them, and he was wondering why he had been summoned because he knew it just wasn't possible for the Dursleys to show up. Shortly followed by one of my most joyful scenes, when Molly and Bill were there to support Harry. Angela _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca From r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 22:33:37 2001 From: r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com (r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 22:33:37 -0000 Subject: Wormtail as Gollum (was What HP Character Scares You Most?) In-Reply-To: <015301c12016$ba4ca8c0$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <9kseo1+c55b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23897 > [...] I believe it was Frodo (sorry, very > rusty on LOTR) who had the chance to kill Gollum, but didn't, and > Gandalf said almost exactly the same thing about Gollum that > Dumbledore said about Wormtail. Actually, I wrote the above snip, then Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) replied: > ...I expect that Pettigrew will make some kind of voluntary > choice, as opposed to Gollum, who saved Frodo (and Middle Earth) > through an act of betrayal that just happened to destroy both him > andthe ring. In LOTR Gollum is utlimately beyond redemption, even > though there is a spark of good in him. I think Pettigrew has > better chances. I lean to the opposite view. I have a feeling that if any action of Pettigrew's benefits Harry or the good forces of the Potterverse it will either be, like Gollum's, a involuntary side effect of an evil action, or an action that is ultimately self-serving -- like the way he groveled to each person in turn in the Shreiking Shack, telling them whatever he thought they wanted to hear to save his own skin. I can't visualize him genuinely repenting and joining Dumbledore's side. The only selfless thing we've seen him do is when, as a rat, he bit Goyle's finger on the very first Hogwart's Express ride. Why did he do that? Maybe he'd grown to feel a little protective towards Ron -- or maybe he just has a thing about fingers. So perhaps there's some glimmer of goodness still in him, but I still think any life- or world-saving action will not be intentional on his part. Remember, in choosing between what is right and what is easy, Peter Pettigrew always chose the latter. Red Queen From belinda at sawyertech.com Wed Aug 8 22:41:50 2001 From: belinda at sawyertech.com (belinda at sawyertech.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 22:41:50 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ksf7e+t5tg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23898 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., r_e_d_queen at y... wrote: > How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that > you care to admit? > What they said. And . . . The Patronus lesson. There's Harry, halfway to submitting to the boggart/dementor just so he can hear his parent's voices, even as they're dying. And Lupin, halfway wishing he could hear them, too. I know we're not supposed to talk fanfic here, but Lori captures this emotion well toward the end of PoU when she has Sirius tell Harry, "You miss having parents, but I miss *James and Lily*." That makes sense to me, and it's how I imagine Lupin feels in this scene. Belinda From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 22:45:31 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 22:45:31 -0000 Subject: Saying the Name Nitpick re Flyswatter spell In-Reply-To: <290AB0A3.324B1151.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9ksfeb+frkl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23899 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: 0 > > Snape: (Looks carefully round the room, takes out wand) Coleopterasplat. (Wand turns into a fly swatter) > > At this point your correspondent remembered an urgent prior engagement and had to leave this most interesting discussion. Our regular readers will take his association with such an unsavoury person as Mr Snape as further evidence of Albus Dumbledores failing grip on his work. > ... > > There is a little more, but this provides the gist. I hope those not around at that momentous time can see how the effects are still with us today. > > Best Regards > > David Frankis Very humerous indeed, Dave, but my L.O.O.N.y impulses compel me to inform you that the Fly is of the order "Diptera", not "Coleoptera." *OW! STOP HITTING ME WITH THAT! OWWW!!* Haggridd From pbnesbit at msn.com Wed Aug 8 22:56:25 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 22:56:25 -0000 Subject: Saying the Name and Ms. Figg In-Reply-To: <9ks2gt+jjrv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ksg2p+chpd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23900 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" wrote: > Hello all, > > The article was hillarious! I laughed till I cried! > > question about Ms. Figg....she's mentioned in the end of GoF, right? > Is that the same Ms. Figg that lives beside Harry? The one that > Dumbledore mentions? If so, that would imply she's a wizard. Right? > > I realise this has probably been discussed before, but I actually just > got that the last time I read the book. I'm pretty proud of myself for > that one! > > Hugs to all, > J JKR said in a chat (I think it was the Comic Relief one) that Arabella Figg & the Mrs Figg who sometimes Harry sits are one in the same. Peace & Plenty, Parker From gaynor at cheerful.com Wed Aug 8 23:19:18 2001 From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 23:19:18 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kshdm+oddh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23901 > How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that > you care to admit? > > Red Queen One of the saddest for me came on a later reading when in PoA Harry asks Lupin if he knew Sirius Black at school and Lupin says something like, "Yes, I knew him. Or I thought I did." It makes me feel so bad for Remus - he can't have had many (or any) friends pre-Hogwarts and he has spent the last twelve years believing two of these friends (James and Peter) to have been killed by the third (Sirius) who's then thrown into Azkaban. All his friends gone in a couple of days. It breaks my heart!! Gaynor From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 9 00:05:43 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 00:05:43 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ksk4n+45jp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23902 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., r_e_d_queen at y... wrote: > How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that > you care to admit?> There were quite a few scenes throughout the series that touched me. I felt so bad for Harry when he wanted to cry and be hugged by Molly Weasley in GoF, but he wouldn't let go. Everything after that continued to make me feel for Harry - the way he only wanted to be around Hermione and Ron, the way he glanced at Cho when Cedric is mentioned (I love him for doing that), the way he wanted nothing more than to give away his prize money... Unfortunately, I know I'll be feeling sad again as I read the next three books. --jenny from ravenclaw, who cries at the drop of a hat ************************************************************* From usergoogol at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 00:16:26 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 00:16:26 -0000 Subject: Zelda 64 and Harry Potter Message-ID: <9kskoq+42iv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23903 Hi. Besides being a fan of the Harry Potter series, I am an equal if not greater fan of the Legend of Zelda series. A while back, when I was playing The Ocarina of Time, ("Zelda 64") I felt like there were paralells, especially in the opening scenes. 1) The game involves Seven years of "coming of age." Of course, in Z64, Link (the hero) is asleep for about 6.9 of those years. 2) In Z64, Link is not well liked as a young person, although he does have one friend (difference!) 3) Saria, with her kind and strong friendship, seems to remind me of Hermione. Both are intellegent and kind. I believe both people are platonic towards their respective hero. 4) A messanger of a wise old being comes to tell the hero of his destiny. (Technically, in Zelda, the wise being tells the hero. But I still think that a connection can be made between Navi and Hagrid. Both definitally helped guide the hero when they needed help.) 5) (Hasn't happened in HP, but I think it may happen eventually) the wise old person (Deku Tree/Dumbledore) dies. 6) Mido definitally reminds me of Draco. Both are kinda noble, both dislike the hero, and Mido just kinda "feels" like Draco. Note: Mido tries to apologize to Link later in the game (but can't because he doesn't realize that Link is the person he knew seven years ago.) I think, Draco MIGHT just redeem himself a tad. Maybe. Well, what do you think, sirs? From smurfs143143 at aol.com Thu Aug 9 00:29:41 2001 From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 00:29:41 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kslhl+701i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23904 ~ The saddest part for me was not any one event in particular, but rather a series of events and ideas. The first of these has to be Cedric's death. The cruelty and evilness of it was just horrible. Many people have said before - and it is true, that Voldemort treated Cedric like a thing rather than a person. I could not stop crying and now those pages are tear-stained! Another sad part was the idea that Harry helped Voldemort to rise again via his blood. I know that was in no way his fault, but he did help. The same way that Cedric's death wasn't his fault. Above all, though, I believe the future may indeed be the saddest part. I believe Harry sums it all up in these lines: [while trying to make Fred & George take his winnings] "If you don't take it, I'm throwing it down the drain. I don't want it and I don't need it. But I could do with a few laughs. We could all do with a few laughs. I've got a feeling we're going to need them more than usual before long" The future looks dark and evil, and I believe many more innocents like Cedric will die. - Elizabeth From pbarhug at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 00:32:05 2001 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 20:32:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What was the saddest scene for you? References: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B71DA05.89E4C652@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23905 r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com wrote: > How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that > you care to admit? > > Red Queen > > P.S. Like Kelly, I too have noticed that JKR knows how to throw in > a timely diversion to keep things from getting too sappy. Just > another piece of her genius. > > For me, the scene that always gets me is the Leaving Feast in GOF, when Dumbledore speaks of Cedric: ...Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice beetween what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory. That speech really brings home the senselessness and randomness and terrible waste of Cedric's murder. I tear up even typing this... drpam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tabouli at unite.com.au Thu Aug 9 01:03:58 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:03:58 +1000 Subject: Villains, Gollum, praise for contributers Message-ID: <004101c1206f$529a7f00$aa90aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 23906 Susanna: > Voldemort is evil, but Lucius is the villain with style and he damned well knows that. Yeahhh... I'm sick of stupid bumbling villains who can be spotted several miles away by their black clothes and sinister voices. Surely concocting plots to take over the world which almost succeed on a regular basis suggests some rudiment of intelligence. Moreover, surely the triumph of the hero over evil is far more triumphant if the evil side actually has a couple of brain cells to rub together. Which reminds me: disappointment about Moody being fake aside, is anyone else as impressed by me by Barty Junior's performance? Now *that's* a villain with style. Not only does he manage to escape his father's clutches and return to Voldemort (remember Barty Senior was supposed to be very powerful), act well enough to fool the greatest wizard of the age for nearly a whole year and come up with an ingenious plan to maintain his fake identity, *and* successfully get Harry to Voldemort without Harry suspecting a thing?? Hey, horrible person, but great stuff. Now there's class. None of this snivelling servant or cape furling Evil Overlord stereotype business. Chris, the Icicle Child: > "My first year was a blast! I was almost killed by this ogre and nearly eaten by a three-headed hound from Hell. My second year was a little fuzzy; that was the year a Basilisk turned me to stone. My third year was interesting; I got to hang out with a werewolf and an outlaw on the Wizard's Ten Most Wanted list. My fourth year was kinda boring in comparison. The worst that happened was getting huge teeth and getting an awful story published about me in the newspaper. Fortunately, neither of those things prevented me from going to my first school dance. Things got kind of glum though when Cedric died at the hand of a megalomaniac who wants to wipe muggles off the map. Oh yeah, and you guys are muggles." Heh heh heh. Very good. Hey Icicular One, welcome to HP4GU: I recognise you from the egroups list, where I hovered for a while and then left not long after some comment I made using X and Y as examples ended in me being accused of prejudice against people with sex chromosome abnormalities (??). Aberforth's Goat: > In LOTR Gollum is utlimately beyond redemption, even though there is a spark of good in him. I think the saddest scene in LOTR is the one where Gollum is gazing tenderly at Frodo and looks, for a moment, like a tired old hobbit lived long beyond his years, before Sam wakens and snaps at him and turns him back into the suspicious slime he usually is (thus destroying his last chance of redemption). David: > The Daily Prophet, 4 July 1981. > >Split at Top of Phoenix Order: Forces of Light Divided >From Our Special Correspondent, Rita Skeeter More evil chuckling (hey, maybe I have the makings of an Evil Overlady myself!). Nice work, David. But what else would one expect from someone who has sufficient imagination to fancy Moaning Myrtle? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From relliott at jvlnet.com Thu Aug 9 01:16:30 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:16:30 -0500 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? References: <997318827.3047.87264.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c12070$ec6bd380$5bb191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23907 All of the scenes mentioned also touched me. Another one was when when Harry and Voldemort's wands connected and the wands wer forced to fight. When his parents emerged from the wand , I competely lost it. Harry has seen his parents in pictures and in the Mirror of Erised but this was somehow different. The were able in some sort of 3D form able to talk or echo to him and help him get away. Tears still start to form everytime I read the passage. From relliott at jvlnet.com Thu Aug 9 02:10:54 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:10:54 -0500 Subject: Houses in Hogwarts? Who..What..Where..Why Message-ID: <000801c12078$8604a420$5bb191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23908 I am sure we all have went to some sort of website, answered questions about our personality, and were sorted into the appropriate house. What houses do you think some of the world leaders and famous actors and actresses would be sorted into? What things have they done or not done that would qualify them for a house? What are their personality characteristics? (Just as a reminder some of the house qualities are: Gryffindor - Brave, daring, chivalrous Ravenclaw - Clever, witty, ready mind, Hufflepuff - Hardworkers, loyal, patient Slytherin - Ambitious, cunning, goal setting Possible individuals could be: Sean Connery, George Lucas, Princess Diana, George W. Bush, Fidel Castro, Tony Blair, George Washington, Adlof Hitler, Bill Clinton, Michael Jordan, Queen Elizabeth, Abraham Lincoln, Bill Clinton, Saddam Hussein, Vladimir Putin, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts, etc... You get the hint. I keep wanting to either put them in Gryffindor or Slytherin. I have a hard time remembering there are 4 houses and not 2. From mindyatime at juno.com Thu Aug 9 02:34:50 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:34:50 -0400 Subject: My Misty Moment Message-ID: <20010808.223637.-82289.11.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23909 I got a lump in my throat when Harry saw his parents in the Mirror inthe first book. From neilward at dircon.co.uk Thu Aug 9 02:52:39 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 03:52:39 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Re: Houses in Hogwarts? Who..What..Where..Why References: <000801c12078$8604a420$5bb191d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <003301c1207e$5b44fae0$bc3670c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 23910 Hi everyone, As I've just let Rachelle know, it would be more appropriate to respond to her post over on OT Chatter and not on this list. Also, although this is a fun idea, please note that contemporary politics is one of the banned topics on our lists. Thanks! Neil Flying Ford Anglia Moderator Team ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachelle Elliott" To: Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 3:10 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Houses in Hogwarts? Who..What..Where..Why > I am sure we all have went to some sort of website, answered questions about > our personality, and were sorted into the appropriate house. > > What houses do you think some of the world leaders and famous actors and > actresses would be sorted into? What things have they done or not done that > would qualify them for a house? What are their personality characteristics? > (Just as a reminder some of the house qualities are: > Gryffindor - Brave, daring, chivalrous > Ravenclaw - Clever, witty, ready mind, > Hufflepuff - Hardworkers, loyal, patient > Slytherin - Ambitious, cunning, goal setting > > Possible individuals could be: Sean Connery, George Lucas, Princess Diana, > George W. Bush, Fidel Castro, Tony Blair, George Washington, Adlof Hitler, > Bill Clinton, Michael Jordan, Queen Elizabeth, Abraham Lincoln, Bill > Clinton, Saddam Hussein, Vladimir Putin, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts, etc... > You get the hint. > > I keep wanting to either put them in Gryffindor or Slytherin. I have a hard > time remembering there are 4 houses and not 2. > > > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI PS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 9 03:08:31 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:08:31 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ksurf+qma3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23911 for my money: That Moody was fake was probably the biggest surprise. Barty Jr. actually took his "role" seriously enough to make himself believable as Moody -- which is really counterpoint to his goal. Teaching a bunch of kids to withstand the Unforgivable Curses that his master's people most frequently cast? Close second is the revealation of Pettigrew-the-Betrayer. I think though that JKR has done a clever pattern here. Quirrell the wimp and Pettigrew the wimp both turned out to be far more than they were given credit for. I expect Neville Longbottom to be far more than he's thus far been given credit for. Third was that Madame Maxime actually used the muggle-esque "I am just big boned!" reaction rather than admit to Hagrid she had Giant blood. In this world where Voldemort's prejudices were most prevalent, it was weird to see someone wary of being the target of prejudices engendered by Voldemort. Indigo From claudiaayaz at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 03:10:30 2001 From: claudiaayaz at yahoo.com (saraavi ranch) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Houses in Hogwarts? Who..What..Where..Why In-Reply-To: <000801c12078$8604a420$5bb191d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <20010809031030.71517.qmail@web11605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23912 oh i totally agree with you about there being two houses instead of four! but when i come to think about it, maybe the ones that wouldn't fit into either ones would perfectly fit into hufflepuff or ravenclaw, lol. my idea is that most politicians would perfectly fit into slitherin, a lot of "political figures" (those who are not elected as politicians but are nevertheless political figures, such as princess di or mother theresa or the dalai lama etc) would be in gryffindor, and the rest in the other two houses. for instance, i could imagine shirley maclaine to be the perfect match for ravenclaw (or hufflepuff?), the same goes for jet li, steven seagal and and and... :-)))) claudia --- Rachelle Elliott wrote: > I am sure we all have went to some sort of website, > answered questions about > our personality, and were sorted into the > appropriate house. > > What houses do you think some of the world leaders > and famous actors and > actresses would be sorted into? What things have > they done or not done that > would qualify them for a house? What are their > personality characteristics? > (Just as a reminder some of the house qualities are: > Gryffindor - Brave, daring, chivalrous > Ravenclaw - Clever, witty, ready mind, > Hufflepuff - Hardworkers, loyal, patient > Slytherin - Ambitious, cunning, goal setting > > Possible individuals could be: Sean Connery, George > Lucas, Princess Diana, > George W. Bush, Fidel Castro, Tony Blair, George > Washington, Adlof Hitler, > Bill Clinton, Michael Jordan, Queen Elizabeth, > Abraham Lincoln, Bill > Clinton, Saddam Hussein, Vladimir Putin, Brad Pitt, > Julia Roberts, etc... > You get the hint. > > I keep wanting to either put them in Gryffindor or > Slytherin. I have a hard > time remembering there are 4 houses and not 2. > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 03:19:05 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9ksurf+qma3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010809031905.3051.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23913 Hello, --- Indigo wrote: > blood. In this world where Voldemort's prejudices > were most > prevalent, it was weird to see someone wary of being > the target of > prejudices engendered by Voldemort. Why do you assume they're engendered by Voldemort? He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named was probably just emphasizing prejudices that already exist in the wizarding world, just as Hitler didn't invent anti-Semitism, merely glorified it. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From carebair_23 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 03:29:31 2001 From: carebair_23 at yahoo.com (Raechel Elizabeth) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks9fh+1g3e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010809032931.32300.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23914 I have to say that I really cried when Cedric died. But the one thing that made me cry the most was when at the end of GoF was my picture of what the look on Harry's face must have been walking away from the train back to Uncle Vernon...That really tore me up. He was in such a bad place inside that the idea of going back to the Dursleys really tore me up. Raechel ---who really cries too much at any books and only picked the one part that made me put the book down and take a minute. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From margdean at erols.com Thu Aug 9 02:55:27 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 22:55:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Saying the Name Nitpick re Flyswatter spell References: <9ksfeb+frkl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B71FB9F.53F0DDCD@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23915 Haggridd wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > > > > Snape: (Looks carefully round the room, takes out wand) > > Coleopterasplat. (Wand turns into a fly swatter) > > > > At this point your correspondent remembered an urgent prior > > engagement and had to leave this most interesting discussion. > Very humerous indeed, Dave, but my L.O.O.N.y impulses compel me to > inform you that the Fly is of the order "Diptera", not "Coleoptera." But of course. "Coleoptera" are beetles. ;) --Margaret Dean From mindyatime at juno.com Thu Aug 9 03:30:33 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:30:33 -0400 Subject: Where were Barty jr.'s marbles? Message-ID: <20010808.233336.-357309.4.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23916 I don't get it -- Moody just unveiled himself to be a DE (OK we didnt yet know he was Barty jr. but he told Harry he was a DE) and then he wants to kill Harry. Then -- what? He is still at Hogwarts, which is Dumbledore domain. Voldie is somewhere in a muggle cemetery. In 5 minutes the door will burst open and in will come all of Harry's mentors and find him murdered by Mad Eye Moody. What will his explanation be? Or, let's say he doesnt' manage to kill Harry. He just told Harry he's a DE. Harry jumps up and tells them. What does he do now? Barty is in enemy territory. How silly of him to reveal himself and tell it all to Harry -- what was he thinking? Was he intending next to disapparate and return to Voldie, leaving real mad-eye in the big trunk? Hmmm? From mcandrew at bigpond.com Thu Aug 9 03:56:57 2001 From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (mcandrew at bigpond.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:56:57 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ks931+i7mc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kt1m9+p7lf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23917 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., r_e_d_queen at y... wrote: > > Kelly Shiflet wrote: And what about the scene in CoS when the trio find out that Ginny has been taken into the chamber? If I remember right "It was the worst afternoon of Harry's life.." up till that moment...they were too depressed to even talk to each other that afternoon (which was of course what galvanised Harry into rescuing mode, just to be doing something to take his mind off things). And Meg Rose's mention of Barty Jr's trial reminded me that I find that scene, with Barty's mother sobbing disconsolately all through the court hearing, and her husband ignoring her state as well as Barty's pleas, particularly harrowing. Reading about the desperately sad last few months of Mrs Crouch's life was probably the closest I've come to tears while reading the books. - Lama - From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 04:03:20 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:03:20 -0000 Subject: Little noticed Pettigrew Fact Message-ID: <9kt228+n2f4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23918 You know all the speculation about what happened the night the Potters died? Some of the questions go -- What happened to Voldemort's wand? Why was the house destroyed? Where did the missing 24 hours go? Much of the guessing centers around Peter Pettigrew. I've always thought it unlikely since he was such a low-talent wizard, and Voldemort had so many other more capable assistants. I was just reading PoA Ch19, and I found this by Sirius -- "The night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle." So the question is, "Where was Peter?" If he had only ratted on the Potters, he could have easily popped over to Voldemort, revealed the secret, then popped back. He could have even used the fire talk. But since he was nowhere to be found, the circumstantual evidence mounts that he was involved in some way. Mind you, I still am not fully convinced; primarily because Wormtail is such a low-talent. But I am certainly more open to it now. Marcus From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 04:06:12 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:06:12 -0000 Subject: Saying the Name Nitpick re Flyswatter spell In-Reply-To: <3B71FB9F.53F0DDCD@erols.com> Message-ID: <9kt27k+gt3e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23919 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean wrote: > Haggridd wrote: > > Very humerous indeed, Dave, but my L.O.O.N.y impulses compel me to > > inform you that the Fly is of the order "Diptera", not "Coleoptera." > > But of course. "Coleoptera" are beetles. ;) > > > --Margaret Dean > All I can say to that is "Oh, 'bug'ger!" Haggridd From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 04:13:12 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:13:12 -0000 Subject: Where were Barty jr.'s marbles? In-Reply-To: <20010808.233336.-357309.4.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9kt2ko+h34i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23920 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > I don't get it -- Moody just unveiled himself to be a DE (OK we didnt yet > know he was Barty jr. but he told Harry he was a DE) and then he wants to > kill Harry. Then -- what? He is still at Hogwarts, which is Dumbledore > domain. Excellent question. Let me try. (1) He was majorly winging it. He didn't have time to think it all the way through. (2) He had been looking forward to Voldemort's return. That and the punishment of all the slacker Deatheaters had occupied his thoughts for nearly a year. Harry was supposed to be dead. (3) When Voldy returned, and Harry survived, and the slacker DE's were not punished, it destroyed the scene he had concentrated on for so long. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 04:16:17 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:16:17 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <20010809031905.3051.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kt2qh+up3j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23921 The biggest surprize for me had to be Quirrell. I hadn't realized that Rowling was that good on springing twists on us. Since then I was not surprized at being surprized. Does that make any sense? :) Marcus From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 04:29:47 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:29:47 -0000 Subject: Where were Barty jr.'s marbles? In-Reply-To: <9kt2ko+h34i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kt3jr+upgm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23922 Aw come on guys, this is classic stupid evil overlord behaviour! Never, ever explain things to the hero before dispatching him because it will just buy him time to be rescued dramatically and at the last minute. When he asks for an explanation, just say no and shoot him as quickly as possible. Geez, I mean don't these guys ever read the @*&%$ manual?? --Suzanne From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com Thu Aug 9 04:35:55 2001 From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:35:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] What was the saddest scene for you? Message-ID: <34.190fb669.28a36d2b@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23923 Putting in my 2 Knuts, I think that one of the sadder scenes is where Hagrid gives Harry the book of pictures of his parents. I can't remember the exact quote, but it said something about Harry not being able to speak, he was so sad/happy about the gift. I was like, "Awww." It was such a sweet moment. 8) ***Dixie Malfoy*** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 04:36:56 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:36:56 -0000 Subject: Houses in Hogwarts? Who..What..Where..Why In-Reply-To: <20010809031030.71517.qmail@web11605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kt418+5u1m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23924 I think of Princess Di as somewhere between Hufflepuff and Gryffindor. I think on the one hand that she was capable of immense loyalty and tender-heartedness. In her public role she was certainly the brave defender of those who were downtrodden (as well as brave and daring in her willingness to stand up to the royal family). I think a lot of people-- and many HP charcaters-- are not necessarily one house or the other. Suzanne Who keeps getting sorted into Gryffindor, but think ravenclaw would also suit her. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., saraavi ranch wrote: > oh i totally agree with you about there being two > houses instead of four! but when i come to think about > it, maybe the ones that wouldn't fit into either ones > would perfectly fit into hufflepuff or ravenclaw, lol. > my idea is that most politicians would perfectly fit > into slitherin, a lot of "political figures" (those > who are not elected as politicians but are > nevertheless political figures, such as princess di or > mother theresa or the dalai lama etc) would be in > gryffindor, and the rest in the other two houses. for > instance, i could imagine shirley maclaine to be the > perfect match for ravenclaw (or hufflepuff?), the same > goes for jet li, steven seagal and and and... :-)))) > claudia > > --- Rachelle Elliott wrote: > > I am sure we all have went to some sort of website, > > answered questions about > > our personality, and were sorted into the > > appropriate house. > > > > What houses do you think some of the world leaders > > and famous actors and > > actresses would be sorted into? What things have > > they done or not done that > > would qualify them for a house? What are their > > personality characteristics? > > (Just as a reminder some of the house qualities are: > > Gryffindor - Brave, daring, chivalrous > > Ravenclaw - Clever, witty, ready mind, > > Hufflepuff - Hardworkers, loyal, patient > > Slytherin - Ambitious, cunning, goal setting > > > > Possible individuals could be: Sean Connery, George > > Lucas, Princess Diana, > > George W. Bush, Fidel Castro, Tony Blair, George > > Washington, Adlof Hitler, > > Bill Clinton, Michael Jordan, Queen Elizabeth, > > Abraham Lincoln, Bill > > Clinton, Saddam Hussein, Vladimir Putin, Brad Pitt, > > Julia Roberts, etc... > > You get the hint. > > > > I keep wanting to either put them in Gryffindor or > > Slytherin. I have a hard > > time remembering there are 4 houses and not 2. > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 04:45:21 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:45:21 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <34.190fb669.28a36d2b@cs.com> Message-ID: <9kt4h1+9b77@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23925 I don't know if I would call this the saddest thing exactly, but I felt a definite gut wrench when the dememtors closed in on Sirius and Harry heard a cry, like a dog in pain. (Can't remember the quote). it made me think about what those twelve years must have been like for him. --Suzanne From sgtpepper43 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 04:54:03 2001 From: sgtpepper43 at yahoo.com (sgtpepper43 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:54:03 -0000 Subject: Question--please read! Message-ID: <9kt51b+6be1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23926 Hi everyone. My name is Lauren and this is my first post here. (newbienewbienewbie!) :) Anyway, I'm writing a fic, it's post-GoF, and I had a quick question for anyone that could help me. What I want to know is whether Ron and Hermione were filled in on the details of Harry's escapade with Voldemort during the Triwizard Tournament. I know Dumbledore told no one to question Harry about the events right after he was brought in to the hospital wing, and later at the End-of-Year Feast Dumbledore made his speech, but how much do Ron and Hermione really know? I'm asking this because I was planning on having a scene in which Harry recounts what happened to Hermione. I don't know whether to put it in or leave it out, can anyone help me? Thanks in advance! --Lauren From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Thu Aug 9 04:57:07 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9kt4h1+9b77@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23927 Since I have a memory like a sieve, I'll just mention the scene I read most recently that made me feel sad. It's the beginning of CoS, where Harry is having breakfast with the Dursleys, and they freak out about him saying "You didn't say the magic word," Uncle Vernon forbids any mention to be made of his "abnormality," and the plan for the evening is that Harry remain silently in his room and pretend that he isn't there. Most of the time, I can feel some sympathy for the Dursleys, forced as they are by familial ties to interact with a world they are terribly frightened of, but that scene really got to me when I reread it last night. --jen :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Aug 9 05:03:11 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:03:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <9kt2qh+up3j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010809050311.12422.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23928 --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com ha scritto:
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From katzefan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 06:36:25 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 06:36:25 -0000 Subject: Barty's marbles, etc. Message-ID: <9ktb1a+dk1e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23929 Re: where were Barty Jr.'s marbles - I agree with Suzanne: why are all the bad guys so DUMB? I suppose one could put it down to oversized egos - look how clever I am! Also, however, in this case, Barty sounded more than a little mad, which could explain the fact he never stopped to think he was in an area controlled by his master's archenemy ... Re: saddest scene: Jenny from Ravenclaw ( who cries at the drop of a hat) had it dead on. There were touching scenes from the other books (like the one someone else mentioned, where Hagrid gives Harry an album full of photos of Harry's parents) but the scene at the end of GoF, where Harry is choking back tears thinking of Cedric's death, had me sobbing shamelessly. - KatzeFan, also in Ravenclaw, who doesn't usually cry over much in books From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Aug 9 08:39:30 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:39:30 -0400 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? Message-ID: <5A60937B.4CCAB749.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23930 r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com wrote: >How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that >you care to admit? > I must confess that almost none of the scenes mentioned make me sad. The one which stands out head and shoulders above all the others to me is Winky in the kitchens at Hogwarts. There's a real tragedy in the making. I'm reluctant to talk about JKR 'owing' anything to her readers (after all, we are in her debt), but I shall be deeply disappointed if Winky's tale is not taken up in the remaining books. David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From carolinedailey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 08:56:04 2001 From: carolinedailey at hotmail.com (carolinedailey at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:56:04 -0000 Subject: My Previous Post In-Reply-To: <9ks75e+bpqh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ktj74+catq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23931 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Julie Balfour" wrote: > Maybe I should just clarify for > allyou LOON mebers that I meant to > put 'murderer' when talking about > Sirius - I meant in the > hypothetical sense -i.e. that Harry > thought that Sirius had betrayed > his parents and thereore, in > essence, 'murdered' them...phew! > (Don't want to run foul of the > LOONies!) I don't want to appear naive, but could Julie Balfour explain about the 'LOON' thing. From catdavey at aol.com Thu Aug 9 09:13:45 2001 From: catdavey at aol.com (catdavey at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 05:13:45 EDT Subject: Winky (Was RE: What was the saddest scene for you?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23932 dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote: << I'm reluctant to talk about JKR 'owing' anything to her readers (after all, we are in her debt), but I shall be deeply disappointed if Winky's tale is not taken up in the remaining books. Much as I find the house elves utterly annoying I have to agree. My feeling is that Winky is never going to be happy at Hogwarts. Though it seems unlikely that she will ever find another family adopt her in her disgraced condition there is one red headed family that would fit the bill perfectly. The Weasleys. They would (in the nicest possible way) be happy not to pay her and George does say "Mum's always wishing we had a house-elf to do the ironing" CoS p27. Personally I can't think of a nicer place for Winky to end up than doing the Weasley's ironing (once she gets over her Butterbeer problem of course!) ~Incitata~ ~Catriona~ or what you will From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 9 09:16:18 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:16:18 -0000 Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <5A60937B.4CCAB749.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9ktkd2+g4ig@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23933 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > r_e_d_queen at y... wrote: > > >How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that > >you care to admit? > > Hm.... Well, there are touching scenes, and then there are touching scenes. My heart went out for Ron in GoF when Harry's name came out of the goblet, and Ron didn't believe it. I knew that rationally he knew his friend didn't just steal the show, but Ron would've loved for once to get the drop on his brothers. My heart went out for Hermione when Draco's curse rebounded and gave her beaver teeth - and Snape said "I see no difference," sending her running off in tears. Unnecessary meanness gets to me every time. Even though I'm not a big Hermione fan, that still made me want to reach into the book and hug her. The very saddest, though, IMO, is the Diggory situation. Harry fighting through his grief and horror and anger to get Cedric's body back per the request of his shade. That's truly heartwrenching. Indigo From bugganeer at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 09:26:43 2001 From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:26:43 -0000 Subject: Some questions to throw atcha In-Reply-To: <9ks8ra+dk9v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ktl0j+gdoj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23934 4) I am still puzzled about the Marauder's Map -- why didn't Harry or Fred n' George see Peter a.k.a. Scabbers if they saw everyone else? And Sirius a.k.a. the big black dog? Snape did and they didn't? Someone once suggested that the map created by the Marauders hid there whereabouts unless activated by one of them. Lupin [a marauder] activated the map and saw Peter. Snape picked up the map activated by Lupin and could see him. Peter and Sirius were out of bounds in the Shreaking Shack, so Snape did not see them. Bugg From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Aug 9 10:00:38 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 06:00:38 -0400 Subject: Where were Barty jr.'s marbles? Message-ID: <62C76BD5.45EDB19B.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23935 Mindy, a.k.a. CLH asked about Barty's marbles. I agree his marbles are incomplete, but his behaviour is consistent. The plan has gone wrong to the extent that Harry is still alive, but it has basically succeeded. Barty's loyalty to his master is such that his first thought is to do the thing that he thinks Voldemort would want (though whether V would have preferred to do the job himself is open). He doesn't care about his own survival, partly because he has faith in his master's ability to get him out of anything, and partly because his own death is of no importance in his own eyes. Having killed Harry, he would have a sporting chance of only being sent to Azkaban - it wasn't foregone that he would be Kissed or killed - from where he could expect rescue within a year or so. He really is a fanatic. I am intrigued to know to what extent he is drawn from life and if so, which groups or individuals JKR might have had in mind. David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From booleanfox at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 11:46:42 2001 From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (Julie Balfour) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:46:42 -0000 Subject: My Previous Post In-Reply-To: <9ktj74+catq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ktt72+ghj1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23936 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., carolinedailey at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Julie Balfour" wrote: > > Maybe I should just clarify for > > allyou LOON mebers that I meant to > > put 'murderer' when talking about > > Sirius - I meant in the > > hypothetical sense -i.e. that Harry > > thought that Sirius had betrayed > > his parents and thereore, in > > essence, 'murdered' them...phew! > > (Don't want to run foul of the > > LOONies!) > > I don't want to appear naive, but could Julie Balfour explain about > the 'LOON' thing. I'll explain off-list or when you come round with your Harry Potter sticker swaps - it'll cost you at least 5 stickers, ha ha. Perhaps you ought to read the FAQs instead... Jules From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 12:50:30 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:50:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What was the saddest scene for you? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23937 >r_e_d_queen at yahoo.com wrote: > > > How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that > > you care to admit? Er, I'm going to seem quite cold-hearted but none of the books thus far have made me cry or be abnormally sad. I mean, I feel sorry about some of the things that have happened, but not actually sad. That's not a surprise though, it takes a lot to make me cry while reading a book (just like it takes a lot to make me laugh while reading a book). Thus far, the only book to have done it is "Bridge to Terabithia". Of course, I'm a regular waterfall at movies and listening to music. So strange that I don't cry while reading books... I think in general, I feel the most sorry for Harry. I mean, here's this kid thrown into circumstances that he has little to no control over. I'm surprised he hasn't indulged in bouts of self-pity (I, being a weaker person, most certainly would've before now). But of course, he has this whole learning magic thing to distract him, I guess... ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com New and Improved!...well, kinda... "But the girl on the car in the parking lot says: 'Man, you should try to take a shot Can't you see my walls are crumbling...'" - Counting Crows "Round Here" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From PUMPKIN322 at MSN.COM Thu Aug 9 04:49:31 2001 From: PUMPKIN322 at MSN.COM (pumpkin322) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:49:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the saddest scene for you? References: <9kshdm+oddh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000301c120db$9c9f5960$83112e3f@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 23938 I found it very touching that James, Sirius, and Peter went to such great lenghths by becoming anamagi for Remus. Then when he was telling the trio all about it in the shrieking shack. And Harry said, "My dad too?" Lupin said, "Yes, indeed!" That scene and the entire revelation in the shack tugs at my heart strings. I like to reread it at times when I feel kind of low about something and get an instant lift. Amazing what these stories and their effects on our lives can do for us. Pumpkin ----- Original Message ----- From: Gaynor Thomas To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 5:19 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the saddest scene for you? > How about you guys? Any misty moments while reading the books that > you care to admit? > > Red Queen One of the saddest for me came on a later reading when in PoA Harry asks Lupin if he knew Sirius Black at school and Lupin says something like, "Yes, I knew him. Or I thought I did." It makes me feel so bad for Remus - he can't have had many (or any) friends pre-Hogwarts and he has spent the last twelve years believing two of these friends (James and Peter) to have been killed by the third (Sirius) who's then thrown into Azkaban. All his friends gone in a couple of days. It breaks my heart!! Gaynor Yahoo! Groups Sponsor _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jsears at drew.edu Thu Aug 9 14:06:16 2001 From: jsears at drew.edu (jsears at drew.edu) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:06:16 -0000 Subject: what was the saddest scene? Message-ID: <9ku5co+7pgt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23939 prongs. when harry sent his patronus across the lake and it came back to him in poa, i could not see straight because of the tears. it was the culmination to all the info he had learned about his father that night and it sent me over the edge. also, in poa, any scene that has lupin revealing part of his past makes me misty eyed. that man always gets the short end of the stick, it seems to me. my final poa sad scene is when harry and ron go to hagrid's hut and hagrid says his line about valuing friends more than rats and broomsticks . . . and they still don't make up with hermione! i felt horrible for her. her only two friends (as far as we know) are not talking to her, she's under stress because of the time-changer ans schoolwork, and she's worried about buckbeat and sirius coming to kill harry. what she needs is a hug, not a couple of cold shoulders. (of course, she does get that hug from ron later . . . yeeha! i guess you can tell which ship i'm in favor of!) --janna From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Aug 9 14:52:59 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:52:59 -0400 Subject: HP and The Ten Commandments #1 Message-ID: <41EBC125.624257E2.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23940 Pippin wrote an essay on the first commandment. A one-line 'me too' post would be against the rules: however, this is a no-line, 'mouth open in awe' post. Job 29:21-22 David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From mariannayus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 15:46:49 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What was the saddest scene for you? In-Reply-To: <9ksbas+hre8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010809154649.88922.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23941 The saddest scene for me (at least on rereading), was reading about Lupin's appearance on the train: his robes shabby and a battered suitcase tied with a string. It's the string that gets me for some reason. He must be horribly poor, and to think he is out of a job again by PoA. Marsha/Marianna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From frantyck at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 16:02:33 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:02:33 -0000 Subject: Draco's Redemption In-Reply-To: <20010806180300.68688.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kuc6p+ejv0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23942 I know the subject of Draco's redemption has moved a bit further than whether or not... but it seems to me that he can't be a straightforward plot device, as mgrantwich suggests: >Draco serves an important purpose in the canon: he offers a total contrast to Harry who's a nice kid who's had to struggle all his life. In the first place, like the other characters, Draco *is* still a child (as Rachelle Elliot pointed out, to make a different point). I wonder whether Rowling would be willing to make a child consistently evil, or even wicked, despite the recent discussion on predestination. Second, why would Rowling limit her own freedom of movement wrt an important character, when she's shown she likes twists of precisely that nature? Perhaps because: Second-and-a-half, Draco hasn't yet played his role in the grand story. He's been mean, shown the reader that prejudice does exist and that it is fresh and close by, given Harry the opportunity to be the first 1st-year Seeker in a century, and all that... but I'm still waiting to see what purpose Draco serves. Draco's Three (+ Crabbe and Goyle) are an imperfect evil foil to Harry's Three. I can't think exactly why, and I don't have the books at hand, so I'll save that for later. Thorry. Third, Draco hasn't been really tested yet (says Jenny from Ravenclaw), apart from the incident with the unicorn and Quirrel- Voldemort in the Forbidden Forest. We don't know that Draco is weak from that instance alone. Cowardice isn't the same as weakness. I'd say that he has leadership abilities -- perhaps it's in the Malfoy genes -- and charisma. Goyle and Crabb cannot give Draco the support and friendship that Harry gets from Hermione and Ron... Draco's never had anyone rely on him absolutely, even if briefly. I'm pretty sure that something like this will come up soon enough. I think it makes for much more interesting and believable characterisation if Malfoy does do something noble, and yet continues in his father's footsteps. he's trapped in his own fate, to an extent, just as much as Harry is. There's a nice potential for complexity and a less black-and-white good and bad division in the next few books, and I think Draco must play a part in that. Rrishi From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Aug 9 16:30:20 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:30:20 -0400 Subject: Twists, Patterns and Universal appeal (was what surprised you the most?) Message-ID: <6F867FA4.23E91ABE.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23943 Susanne Schmid wrote: >In PS/SS, the big >surprise was that the evil guy turned out to be >Quirell, not Snape. CoS didn't offer a great deal of >surprise in that sense, as from Lockhart you could >easily expect *anything* and Ginny was being >controlled but not evil by herself. PoA returns to the logic >of no.1, only reversing it- bad guy turns out to be >good guy, bad cat is good cat. GoF presents us with a >double twist: for a brief moment, it seems that good >guy is bad (when fake Moody takes Harry up to his >office, until Dumbledore & co. arrive) and I admit >that at that point I thought "Oh no, not another >Quirrell!". Then, we discover that good guy was >impersonated by bad guy, which is surprising enough. > >So, what can possibly be next without repeating >patterns too often or becoming too artificial? Future >will tell us. > I'm not too good at thinking up new twists but one thing that I wonder about is the appeal of the repeated patterns that come in HP. So first we have the bad DADA prof, then we have the bad DADA prof who turns out to be an impostor, and so on. One thing I liked in the later books is the way that familiar scenes are described, perhaps for the third or fourth time, and each time there is a new twist to give it interest and plot significance. So, first time around, Diagon Alley is our introduction to the Wizarding World, and we have Quirrell and the mysterious package at Gringotts. Next time, we are introduced to Lockhart and Lucius Malfoy, particularly the scene at Flourish and Blotts. (When will Knockturn Alley reappear?). Then, it provides the setting for the get-together with the Weasleys (another recurring pattern) and the arrival of Crookshanks. In the fourth book, it is omitted in favour of the World Cup, which provides its function of introducing new non-Hogwarts characters such as Bagman, Crouch and Winky, and new plot elements such as the Dark Mark. There are numerous other instances: the train (both coming and going), the final discussion with Dumbledore, the visit to Hagrid's hut, the Quidditch games, the denoument after going through a secret or hidden passage, the trial-by-Dursley, the accusation by Snape, the DADA lesson, Christmas presents and dinner, the end-of-year awards, the exotic beast (Norbert, Aragog, Buckbeak, Blast ended Skrewt), the exotic artefact (Erised, diary, map, Pensieve), the exotic being (Centaur, House Elf, Dementor, Merfolk), the Snape revelation, meeting the DADA teacher before term starts. New ones are emerging: the significant Divination lesson, the discussion with Sirius, the face-off with Fudge... the list goes on. Not all of these appear in all four books, but even when they are missing their absence is significant: no end of term awards when Cedric dies, for example. No revelation about Snape in COS because it deals with the distant past. I think some critics have seen this as a weakness ('she just repackages the material and laughs her way to the bank'), but I think both that it's deliberate and a large part of the appeal. It will be interesting to see if JKR keeps up her seemingly endless ability to get new twists out of the same material, or whether there will now be a more decisive break with the 'Hogwarts pattern' as the action moves to the wider world. David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Aug 9 17:59:37 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:59:37 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Barty Jr (long) Message-ID: <9kuj29+q24t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23944 WARNING: The motto of this whole post is IMO, so I didn't bother to write it every time I make some conjecture of my own Finally it has come to my mind who Barty Jr. reminds me of: It's Count Dracula's faithful servant Renfield!! The coin fell at the moment I reread what he tells Dumbledore under the influence of Veritaserum, the key phrase being: ?And then- my Master came to me!", with a look ob utter insanity in his eyes. There are parallels like Renfield being imprisoned and waiting for Dracula's arrival in England and his total devotion (ah, how Tom Waits played him....), that has more than just a tinge of insanity. How insane is Barty Jr.? And why? He spent one year in Azkaban and left the prison dying (GoF: ?They sensed one healthy and one dying person enter and one healthy and one dying person leave"). What exactly were his symptoms? Was he dying because he had stopped eating? Had his Dementor- induced state of depression become so bad that he had simply abandoned himself? What are the effects of a long- term Imperius Curse? Does it affect the mental health? As I don?t want to only throw out questions, but would like to answer some of them myself, so there is my own version of Barty Crouch jr.: At Voldemort's downfall, Barty is in his late teens (trial in the pensieve). We don't know whether he ever took his final exams at Hogwarts, but it is ascertained that till his fifth year he was a top student and got 12 O.W.L.S. If he is 18/19 after V.'s defeat, his first year at Hogwarts and the beginnings of V.'s rise to power more or less coincide. (We can only guess which House he was in, maybe it will be revealed in a later book, anyway, my guess would be Gryffindor or Ravenclaw.) Family situation: His father Barty Sr. Seems to have worked for the MoM for a very long time, maybe he started directly after his graduation. Barty Sr. is ambitious, his ultimate aim being to become Minister of Magic. To achieve it, he doubtlessly had to work very hard, especially during VWI which means that, when Barty Jr. started school (and perhaps even before), they lost contact almost completely. Maybe they saw each other once or twice during the holidays. His mother, from the short glimpse we get at her during the trial, is a complete nonentity. OTOH, Barty Sr. loves her very much, at least more than he ever loved his son. Her own love for her son must be very deep, as she literally withers away after he has been sent to Azkaban, and sacrifices herself to free him. So Barty jr. seems to have lived a childhood dominated by an ambitious, irascible and doubtlessly very demanding father (last hope of an old family) and a loving, but completely subdued mother who might have wanted to protect him from his father's rage and punishment, but wasn't able to stand up to him. It is obvious that this boy needs a family substitute and evidently he doesn't find it at Hogwarts. Barty is an only child and most likely grew up very protected, which doesn't help to develop social abilities. He is some kind of super- Hermione, even less inclined to break rules, because he is very conscious of the effect an owl from Dumbledore might have on his father, and of the consequences for himself. He isn't part of any group, his fellow students neither like nor dislike him. The teachers appreciate him for his good work, but they have authority and give marks and take points from the students, therefore neither they qualify as parent substitutes. Barty is essentially an "invisible child", the kind no one would miss if he suddenly disappeared. Now how did he become a Death Eater? My instinctive guess would be that he didn't go to V. by himself to offer his services- I'd rather say somebody (a friend, a friend's father or a stranger) got him in the right moment. Maybe after his father had been particularly horrible and unjust, making him wish to kill him or at least hurt him very badly. So he joined Voldemort- what a catch, the son of a high MoM official!- maybe passed on some useful bits of information he had overheard at home and thus climbed up his way through the DE hierarchy, not as high as Lucius Malfoy but high enough to be gratified. (It is never made clear what his position really was before Voldemort's defeat, anyway he was a Death Eater and therefore belonged to the elite.) Something else I can only guess but believe very plausible: Barty sr. was without doubt an abusive father, punishing his son most severely for the slightest disobedience or error. Hence, I suppose that Barty Jr's potential of violence was very great and he found full satisfaction in killing and torturing for Voldemort. Add some promises of power (?When we'll have caught your father, I'll leave him to you, Barty", "Have patience till we don't need to hide any more, then you will be duly rewarded"), some responsibility given to him for the first time in his life (?I will entrust this operation to young Barty Crouch, he has proved himself worthy and has my full confidence") and he belonged to Voldemort hide and hair. This is my reason to believe that the first event to unhinge him was V.'s defeat- we could compare it to Harry's feelings (or Tom Riddle's, if it comes to that) about Hogwarts being closed because of the killings in CoS. Imagine his father strutting around, sure of becoming the next MoM, everybody celebrating, while he himself had lost everything! Dire perspectives, to say the least. Therefore, he and the Lestranges grabbed a straw of hope and made a little visit to the Longbottoms- after this attempt to find his Master had failed, I don't think he opposed much resistance to the Aurors who captured him. So little, in fact, to make it credible (e.g. for Dumbledore) that he had just been at the wrong place in the wrong moment. One year of clinical depression in Azkaban and probably also the death of his mother (it's no small burden for a 19 year- old to know his mother died for him in Azkaban, he knew how one felt in there) gave him the rest: IMO, he took refuge in his own world of phantasy, floating on the feeling of lightness that the Imperius Curse conveyed to him. The fact that he fired the Dark Mark into the sky at the QWC ties in very well with this theory. He had made up his idea of himself as his master's only faithful servant (which was not entirely mistaken, but highly exaggerated) and used the first occasion to demonstrate it ?to whom it may concern". Then "his Master comes to him" and I think it's Barty Sr.'s luck that they need him to keep up a fa?ade for the MoM, otherwise I'd rather not imagine what his son might have done to him. Barty Jr.' s story is a paradigm of absurdity as much as Cedric's death: An intelligent, talented boy, capable of love and devotion, he could have joined those who fought Voldemort, if only the circumstances had been slightly different. He would have been able to do the same for Dumbledore than he did for Voldemort. Calling him an evil character would be wrong, IMO, as he joined the Dark Side much too young and not because they were evil, but because they were not his father. That makes his confession one of the saddest scenes in GoF. End of the rant Comments welcome Susanna From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 18:44:00 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 18:44:00 -0000 Subject: Draco sympathizing? In-Reply-To: <9krkjn+lj4e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kullg+1v3d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23945 Joelle wrote: >The Malfoys probably take the position of "knowledge is power" > while the Weasleys take a more honorable approach--the Triwizard Cup > is supposed to be a secret until the school year starts (that's the > impression I get) so they don't even tell their own kids. And with > regards to Harry's parents, how many of us would tell our 13-year- > olds, "You know that escaped convict, well, he was responsible for > the murder of your best friend's parents"? What kid needs to live > with that knowledge? I agree completely. That's what I like about Draco's knowing and Ron's not. It's one of those little details that, without JKR spelling anything out, tells us a lot about both families. Amy Z From linman6868 at aol.com Thu Aug 9 19:17:35 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:17:35 -0000 Subject: Twists, Patterns and Universal appeal (was what surprised you the most?) In-Reply-To: <6F867FA4.23E91ABE.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9kunkf+mqrh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23946 David Frankis wrote: > I'm not too good at thinking up new twists but one thing that I wonder about is the appeal of the repeated patterns that come in HP. > One thing I liked in the later books is the way that familiar scenes are described, perhaps for the third or fourth time, and each time there is a new twist to give it interest and plot significance. > I think some critics have seen this as a weakness ('she just repackages the material and laughs her way to the bank'), but I think both that it's deliberate and a large part of the appeal. > > It will be interesting to see if JKR keeps up her seemingly endless ability to get new twists out of the same material, or whether there will now be a more decisive break with the 'Hogwarts pattern' as the action moves to the wider world. Exactly! Precisely! Just what I was going to say myself! Keep it up, Chief, keep it up! ;) I too think JKR's doing this deliberately. It's part of her comedic genius to make us all expect the list of things David made and I snipped (don't forget the traditional catastrophe on Halloween night!), and yet to be endlessly amused, shocked, horrified, and/or taken aback when each item makes its appearance. It's her way of preserving continuity and adding novelty at the same time, and IMO is one of the girders that holds up her universe for us. We might get bored with endless attempts to have something wholly new and magical happen with each successive book; we won't even think to be bored if we are looking forward (like a child who's memorized a bedtime story) to things we *know* are going to happen, on tenterhooks waiting to see how they manifest themselves. My recent convert told me after finishing GoF that she'd learned to "watch the DADA teacher" for the key to the mystery, but was still floored when she found out what that key actually was. I expect that in future books, the salient -- tropes is the only word I can think of, and it's so gradschoolish -- will continue to manifest themselves, but on a larger scale and without being confined to Hogwarts, as we've seen with the Quidditch World Cup replacing a trip to Diagon Alley (as David pointed out) or the Halloween Catastrophe being an international embarrassment (Harry's upsetting entrance in the Tournament). And needless to say, the stakes will be higher. Lisa I. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 19:44:43 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:44:43 -0000 Subject: Book Five Publishing Date - Bad News, Old News? Message-ID: <9kup7b+jt2a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23947 Not sure if this means anything but apparently JKR wrote a letter to the editor of The Scotsman regarding the publishing date of Book Five. Here are the relevant paragraphs: =================================================================== LONDON (AP) - Fans of Harry Potter who've come to expect an annual dose of the boy wizard will have to wait a little longer for the fifth volume of his adventures - but that's not because the author has writer's block. "There is no writer's block - on the contrary, I am writing away very happily," said J.K. Rowling in a letter published Thursday in The Scotsman newspaper.... No date has been set for the publication of book five, and The Scotsman suggested on Wednesday that the 35-year-old author was suffering from creative block. "As I, my publishers and my agent have stated since the publication of `Goblet Of Fire' in July 2000, there was never any intention of publishing the fifth Harry Potter book in 2001, nor has any deadline ever been set for the delivery of the manuscript," Rowling wrote. ==================================================================== It's got to be next year, right? From nethilia at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 19:58:34 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what surprised/touched you the most? Message-ID: <20010809195834.31456.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23948 Forgive the lenght of this, I'm so far behind in my digests... My biggest surprise was in PoA with the whole Lupin hugs Sirus/Lupin's a werewolf/Sirius is a good guy/Peter's a rat in both ways/We're all Animagi deal. Hermione's time turner came in second (I honestly thought she was going to a separate class, like a later one instead of at the same time), and Harry sending his Patronus to save them all. As for Moody being Barty, that wasn't so much shock as a 'what the %@^*$^#?! He's too cool to be bad! D=< ' I should have been shocked by Cedric's death, but I accidentally saw a mini spoiler (A little personality button that said "Remember Cedric Diggory") and so I knew he was going to die, just not how. Matter of fact, I suspected that first match he was going to crash into a wall and break his neck or something O_o As for the misty eyed one, it has to be the after effects of Cedric. His dad was telling him about how he could tell his grandchildren he beat Harry, and now he'll never have children...then there's poor Cedric's parents and Cho at the Feast. I think Cho was just holding it all together for the fact she was in public. (I was thinking of doing a HORRIBLE cliche later in my novel, but it would be way, WAY too cliched...I think I'll change it to something else.) That, and Harry staring in the mirror at his parents, with such longing... ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- 65% obsessed with Harry Potter **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From JulieW428 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 21:25:18 2001 From: JulieW428 at yahoo.com (Julie) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 21:25:18 -0000 Subject: A little of this a little of that! Message-ID: <9kuv3u+dir9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23949 I went away last Friday and was away from the computer until Monday and just got caught up reading all the posts I missed and wanted to respond to a few. Now I'm just getting started but I have a feeling this may end up long- so be prepared. Also- I don't have my books here and I will not have anyone else's quotes in this because it would just be too long to cover everything. 1. Universal Appeal and Autism- My son is a high functioning Autistic and loves the books- he knows all about them- could give a few members on this list a run for their money in L.O.O.N. terms- SO why the big deal a bunch of kids like them- typically autistic kids don't do well with abstract and fantasy- and forget handling multiple plot lines- and so usually it is more factual books that are read by these kids. But this past weekend I was away at a camp for autistic kids- there were 20 kids there and 5 of them had their books with them- the mom's of 6 more said their children had read all or some of the books and at least seemed to enjoy them. SO we have 11 kids out of 20 add to the fact that 6 of the kids either were to young or were not readers and you bring it to 11 of 14 kids- I was pretty shocked and Harry Potter was a topic of discussion at this camp amoung parents and the kids. I read the books after my son did and he demanded that I had to read them. My son who has difficulty expressing abstract thoughts and feelings participates on many HP websites and he is actually discussing these topics. The Universal appeal is that it is a story- that unlike most improves with repeated readings- it always amazes me how some mundane thing mentioned in the first book becomes very important in the next one- so that when you reread them it means all the more to you with the future knowledge in place. These characters come to life and you get to be Harry and also be sitting next to Harry. I need to explore why the appeal is so great in autistic kids more but I think in part it is because Harry despite being the hero is the best at everything- he isn't an Adonis, he hasn't been privileged, he's picked on and teased, and he doesn't always win- I think another appeal may be the reality in the fantasy that life isn't always fair- and that is a message these kids need- that it isn't their fault they are so different and it doesn't mean that they can't win sometimes. 2. Books written for kids- I don't know how many times I have pointed out to other adults that these really aren't children's books in the sense that most people are used to- I say the main characters are children but there really is so much more. I see these books as aging with the reader- so if your kid is now 13 or 14 or older book 5 should be handled just fine- but I do see how JK could have her reservations of younger children reading the stories and then getting upset by the grown up topics involved- these are hard feelings- if they make us as adults cry at times they are emotional for kids too- not that I think they should be censored from kids I just think that parents need to read them too. 3. Okay this is one that just has always bugged me- forgive me because I don't remember Mr. Weasley's title but I know it is something with protection of Muggles- how come they know soooo little about Muggles yet many of the wizards live amoung them. You would think they would have to appear to be Muggles in most cases to avoid detection as wizards- I love the fact that many of the wizards don't have a clue about being a muggle (lot's of funny scenes on that point) but you would think that Arthur with his close associations would know a little more. 4. Scariest Character- let's see the one that really gives me the Heebie Jeebies has got to be Fudge- It is so hard to see what side of the fence he is really on and he has so much power and control in the situation. Even if he didn't truly side with Voldamort and become a card carrying Death Eater- he could still do damage- the man is sick he likes the Dementors too much- which by the way the Dementors as a whole rank as my second scariest character- seems like they are controled much to loosely for my tastes- sort of wish they would all kiss each other! 5. Draco- Let's see- right now I see him as an egotistical bigot who has very little self esteem but covers well- yes I do think he is a coward even though there isn't a lot of evidence yet to show otherwise Now I also see him as having a really screwed up home life- his mom dotes on him and gives him too much (wizard Duddley) and his dad seems like one of those parents at the ball field who punishes his kid because they only hit a double instead of a home run- or cmae in second place- I see him as having very high expectations from his very powerful dad (dad doesn't want to be embarrased by him) and no boundries put on him by mom because she gives him everything- so I see a pretty screwed up kid- and although I don't ever think that he and Harry will be friends I do think there is a strong potential for him to do something to help Harry or better yet Ron (who hates Malfoy more than Harry who really feels sorry for him). I could definitely see hime doing something- I kind of look at him like a young Snape- Severus would never do anything overtly kind to Harry and the rest of the trio but he wouldn't wouldn't let them come to harm either- he doesn't have to like them to save their lives... 6. Photos and Portraits- Okay- do we know of any paintings of living people? One thought I had was that the life comes to the portraits after the person dies. Or it could be that just in the paint and painting and being in Hogwarts allows the paintings to act like they do. Now Photos, posters and Choc. Frog Cards are a different thing all together. These I feel capture the essence but not the life of the person so they move around and they wave and get embarrassed but they don't otherwise communicate or anything. I think Penelope's photographed self got embarrassed because she would have been embarrassed herself. I also think photos do not change as the person ages- so if they were care free and sweet as a kid but turned evil later than there baby pictures would still be care free and nice and not evil and menacing. 7. Founder's conversation for sorting hat- I loved this conversation- it really does seem to be the best explanation I have read for the inner workings of the hat. Thanks! 8. Molly -Does it bug anyone else how she jumps to conclusions so quickly? It bugged me to no end when she was mean to Hermione based on the articles in the Witch's Weekly and from Rita Skeeter. I really started to dislike her at that point- I mean doesn't she realize after having the girl in her home that Hermione isn't like that- and if she had any doubts how about owling Ron or Harry or even the twins and ask if everything was ok and mention that she was worried after reading the article. I guess I just lost some respect for her- I know she loves Harry like he was her own but still- Maybe I am reading to much into this cuz she reminds me a lot of my mother in law in how she will jump to a conclusion like that. 9. Snape and Snuffles Revealed- Okay- I think Madam Pomfrey was asked to leave because it wasn't her business- she didn't need to know. I think Minerva either already knew or would be told shortly but Dumbledore wanted her out of the room so that Snape and Sirius could mend fences (never mind how poorly) without an extensive audience- Minerva holding the position she does would not have needed to be in the room for that to occur and would actually have been inappropriate for her to be- (Geez- I wish Dumbledore was my boss)- Molly got to stay for 2 reasons- one she needed to know- she is I think part of the old crowd and no time like the present to reveal the truth and also because I really don't thinks she would have left if Dumbledore told her too- and there really wasn't a safer place to make the disclosure. Someone said it was an act of faith on both parts- Dumbledore demonstrated to Sirius that he trusts Snape despite his past associations and to Snape that he also believes Sirius to be innocent of his crimes and to be trusted. 10. Krum Falling for Hermione- don't remember what was said about this for me to right the note on my paper but... I think Viktor fell for Hermione because she wasn't chasing after him. She wasn't empressed by his fame and doesn't care much for his expertise at Quidditch because she doesn't watch it. Why should she be impressed- her best bud is Harry and she never cuts him slack and he is "the-boy-who-lived" and a great on a broom stick! Hermione went out with him because he was probably the first boy who didn't talk to her to ask help with homework or that didn't tease or pick on her like I'm sure most of the others had. 11. Next teacher that is a former student- if it has to be someone in Harry's year I would think it would be Neville and teaching Herbology. But if not I would think possibly Charlie coming back as the Care of Magical Creatures instructor -assuming that Hagrid may be kept on his diplomatic mission (anyone else smile thinking of Hagrid as a diplomat?) with the giants. I also wondered if Krumm would return to Hogwarts- he seemed to want to stay and seemed to not like Durmstang- and I do recall Fleur saying she would return to learn more English but have no idea what she would teach. 12. What surprised me the most- hmmm most of my surprises were mentioned by others but I guess maybe the Pettigrew is Scabbers thing was the most suprising- followed closely by Sirius is a good guy and Harry's Godfather. Remus is a werewolf didn't get me in the slightest with a name like Remus Lupin what else could he be? 13. Green- The writing on the Hogwarts letters is emerald green- I assumed it was Minerva's signature color- wasn't she wearing emerald green the first time she is intoduced as a character and isn't she the one who wrote the letters. I do see a lot of use of green but I think it is just a color that lends it self to so much- it can be poisonous or it can be earthy- it can be lively and happy or ominous- most of the other colors don't evoke the same cross of feelings- at least not from me- 14. Most touching moment- there were many- I had to reread Cedrics death scene to make sure I read it right. But I think the thing that always gets me is when Harry just keeps going- he doesn't let all the bad stuff get him down. I mean- if he was a muggle the boy could make a fortune on the talk show circut- just based on the abuse from the Dursleys. I think the part that really wrenched the gut the most was at the end of GoF- when he has to walk to his uncle- after everything that had just happened to him and he has to stay with people who don't love him, he won't have someone to give him the hugs he needs or the understanding shoulder to let him cry and tell about his experiences- No he just witnesses the rise of the most evil being known and the death of a schoolmate, narrowly escapes death himself, is in on way more information than a kid his age really needs to know and he has to go back to the people that locked him in the closet under the stairs. It just really got to me- how alone he was at that point. I sure hope JK rescues him from the Dursleys sooner this year! Alright- that is out now- I feel much better- I hate to say I told you so but I'll do it anyway- I told you this would be long. When I started on Monday I was behind like 300 posts then in time I tried to catch up another 200-300 posts were made- I did think of asking you all to hold off and discontinue posting for a day or so but something told me you wouldn't have done it so I just grinned and went on reading- good thing the boss's office got moved accross the street! Julie- who now wants an internet enabled lap top to take to camps and on outings so that she never falls this far behind again! From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk Thu Aug 9 22:19:36 2001 From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 22:19:36 -0000 Subject: Draco being redeemed Message-ID: <9kv29o+3pi0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23950 As anyone who knows me will tell you, I am a strong opponent of the "Draco-is-so-sexy-and-tortured-let's-put-him-in-leather-and-make- him-into-a-good-guy-and-schnoogle-him-senseless" school of thought. ;) Slight exaggeration, but you see what I mean. Fanfic weirdness aside, I don't see any reason not to make Draco a bad guy. With Voldemort recruiting new Death Eaters, it seems likely that some of Harry's schoolmates will join the Dark Side. I can't think of a better candidate than Draco. And JKR more or less debunked that rumour about Draco and Harry teaming up to fight evil months ago... Keith "How Freudian" Fraser From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk Thu Aug 9 22:44:52 2001 From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 22:44:52 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Barty Jr (long) In-Reply-To: <9kuj29+q24t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kv3p4+94dh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23951 I largely agree with most of what you said, but you didn't touch on the fact that he acted the innocent at his trial. To me, this suggests a higher level of duplicity and general nastiness than you maybe suggested. Keith "How Freudian" Fraser From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk Thu Aug 9 22:50:11 2001 From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 22:50:11 -0000 Subject: What gave people the idea Sirius was Voldemort's No. 2? Message-ID: <9kv433+rg19@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23952 What the title says. I mean, it seems a big imaginative leap from Sirius betraying the Potters to him being Deputy Big Bad. Did Death Eaters (Pettigrew?) spread misinformative rumours after the event? Keith "How Freudian" Fraser From JulieW428 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 23:00:49 2001 From: JulieW428 at yahoo.com (Julie) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 23:00:49 -0000 Subject: What gave people the idea Sirius was Voldemort's No. 2? In-Reply-To: <9kv433+rg19@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kv4n1+jimk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23953 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., keith.fraser at s... wrote: > I mean, it seems a big imaginative leap from Sirius betraying the > Potters to him being Deputy Big Bad. Did Death Eaters (Pettigrew?) > spread misinformative rumours after the event? > I agree and on top of that- wouldn't the real bad guys have known it wasn't him- not that they would have cleared his name or anything but wouldn't have mayber Snape or Karkoroff (spelling?) have maybe known something to clear him? I guess PP was spreading some good rumors before and after- wouldn't take much with the likes of Rita Skeeter around. Julie From mindyatime at juno.com Thu Aug 9 23:11:25 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 19:11:25 -0400 Subject: What surprised you the most? Message-ID: <20010809.191547.-387021.3.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23954 > Teaching a bunch of kids to withstand the Unforgivable Curses that his master's people most frequently cast? NO WONDER HE KNEW ALL OF THE UNFORGIVABLE CURSES!!! Dont forget Barty Crouch Jr. was STARVING to use a wand and flex his power and use his curses -- he hadn't done it in YEARS! He was more than thrilled to do it on the spiders and show off. I am surprised he had the presence of mind to keep his disguise. If I'd be newly released from a self-made solitary confinement, the way he was held by his dad, I'd be so shell shocked I wuldnt be able to pull off such an act! From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Aug 9 23:46:32 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 23:46:32 -0000 Subject: What gave people the idea Sirius was Voldemort's No. 2? In-Reply-To: <9kv4n1+jimk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kv7co+r6ih@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23955 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Julie" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., keith.fraser at s... wrote: > > I mean, it seems a big imaginative leap from Sirius betraying the > > Potters to him being Deputy Big Bad. Did Death Eaters (Pettigrew?) > > spread misinformative rumours after the event? > > > > > I agree and on top of that- wouldn't the real bad guys have known it > wasn't him- not that they would have cleared his name or anything but > wouldn't have mayber Snape or Karkoroff (spelling?) have maybe known > something to clear him? > > I guess PP was spreading some good rumors before and after- wouldn't > take much with the likes of Rita Skeeter around. > I think Voldemort knew that someone in his inner circle was passing information back to the good guys and took advantage of it. I see a carefully orchestrated campaign of disinformation, in which Snape played an important but unwitting role by informing Dumbledore that there was a spy planted near the Potters. Snape speaks of James' refusal to believe that Black could betray him, which suggests that Snape himself passed information about Black back to the Potters. Pippin From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 10 00:17:21 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:17:21 -0000 Subject: What gave people the idea Sirius was Voldemort's No. 2? In-Reply-To: <9kv7co+r6ih@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kv96h+vptv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23956 > > > I mean, it seems a big imaginative leap from Sirius betraying the Potters to him being Deputy Big Bad. Did Death Eaters (Pettigrew?) spread misinformative rumours after the event? > > > I would venture to say it was just an assumption by the general wizard population. If Voldie was after the Potter's and Sirius was supposedly their Secret Keeper, then after everything goes down a supposedly innocent person, Peter Pettigrew, confronts said Secret Keeper and supposedly said Secret Keeper blows apart the "innocent" and a street load of muggles, it would stand to reason that said Secret Keeper was Voldie's right hand man, after all, he passed much needed info to Voldie and blew up a large number of people in order to kill the one person who was confronting him about passing information. If the general population had learned that Sirius was NOT the Secret Keeper and that Pettigrew was, they would not assume Pettigrew was Voldie's right hand man because he was a weak wizard. Of course, I am asssuming here that Sirius was a powerful wizard, on the level with James et al. I don't think there has been anything in the canon to support this theory, but I could be wrong as my books are packed (I HATE packing) and I can't check them. But then you get to the theory, how weak could Pettigrew be if he blew apart a whole street and the muggles on it? Michelle :) <---who is posting so she can procrastinate packing. DId I mention I HATE packing? From mindyatime at juno.com Fri Aug 10 00:18:45 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:18:45 -0400 Subject: what is 'fanfic'? Message-ID: <20010809.202825.-445181.5.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23957 I know I sound incredibly naiive but can someone explain to me what a 'fanfic' is and where I can find some of those fanfic's? From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 00:39:13 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 20:39:13 -0400 Subject: Sirius V's #2? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23958 Or, to switch fandoms, his Number One? Pippin wrote: >I think Voldemort knew that someone in his inner circle was passing >information back to the good guys and took advantage of it. I see a >carefully orchestrated campaign of disinformation, in which >Snape played >an important but unwitting role by informing Dumbledore >that there was a >spy planted near the Potters. That bit wasn't disinformation, though. One of their best friends *was* a spy. Snape didn't know which one, unfortunately . . . of course, maybe James wouldn't have believed him if he'd said it was Peter, either. I prefer to think that he would have; that he trusted Sirius despite the warnings (if there were even specific warnings against Sirius, which we don't know) because he knew Sirius to the core--and he was right, Sirius would never have betrayed him. Maybe if the warning had been about Peter, on the other hand, it would have been believed. Amy Z _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From petrukio at enteract.com Fri Aug 10 00:41:54 2001 From: petrukio at enteract.com (Joel N. Fischoff) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 19:41:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] what is 'fanfic'? In-Reply-To: <20010809.202825.-445181.5.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23959 On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Mindy, a.k.a. CLH wrote: >I know I sound incredibly naiive but can someone explain to me what a >'fanfic' is and where I can find some of those fanfic's? Fan-written fiction, basically. There are lots of places for fanfiction, depending on what kind you want to read. A general place to go is http://www.fanfiction.net For Harry Potter stuff, there is a Yahoo group dedicated to fanfiction. It is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp_fanfiction There's another group dedicated to Ginny Weasley fanfiction. It appears to be a subset of the Harry Potter-Ginny list, but with much less spam. Here's the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ginnyfic And, of course, there's the new one just starting (I think that the schnoogle one may still be the only one opened, while the others aren't) up: http://www.fictionalley.org Joel From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 00:43:44 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 20:43:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] what is 'fanfic'? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23960 Mindy wrote.. >I know I sound incredibly naiive but can someone explain to me what a >'fanfic' is and where I can find some of those fanfic's? Funny you should ask.... ;} http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/fanfic.html Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From mindyatime at juno.com Fri Aug 10 00:33:16 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:33:16 -0400 Subject: House Elves Message-ID: <20010809.204919.-445181.11.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23961 Where and how does one go about requiring house-elves? And are they indentured servants for life? Boy, I could sure use one. From Alyeskakc at aol.com Fri Aug 10 01:27:43 2001 From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:27:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius V's #2? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9kvdaf+qalu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23962 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > That bit wasn't disinformation, though. One of their best friends *was* a spy. Snape didn't know which one, unfortunately . . . of course, maybe James wouldn't have believed him if he'd said it was Peter, either. I prefer to think that he would have; that he trusted Sirius despite the warnings (if there were even specific warnings against Sirius, which we don't know) because he knew Sirius to the core--and he was right, Sirius would never have betrayed him. Maybe if the warning had been about Peter, on the other hand, it would have been believed. If you look back to the Shierking Shack scene in PoA, I think they (James and Sirius)thought Remus was the spy not Peter.(pg. 373) "Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. "I assume that's why you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually over Pettigrew's head. Based on Snape's hatred of Remus and Sirius he may have supplied information that both of them were spies. However James refused to believe his oldest and dearest friend of such treachery. There may, on the otherhand, have been doubts about Remus because of his lycanthropy. James and Sirius didn't want to believe that Remus could be the spy, but rumors about Voldemort contolling dark creatures caused doubts and they knew someone had been passing information to Voldemort. If they had really thought things out though, they would have realized it was Peter who was the spy. He always liked to hide behind the biggest kids on the block, and who was the biggest at that time, Voldemort. Just my thoughts. Cheers, Krisitn From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Aug 10 01:31:03 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:31:03 -0000 Subject: What didn't surprise me In-Reply-To: <20010809195834.31456.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9kvdgn+kgmd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23963 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Nethilia De Lobo wrote: > My biggest surprise was in PoA with the whole Lupin > hugs Sirus/Lupin's a werewolf/Sirius is a good > guy/Peter's a rat in both ways/We're all Animagi deal. > Hermione's time turner came in second (I honestly > thought she was going to a separate class, like a > later one instead of at the same time)> You know, the Time Turner was the only thing that did not surprise me. I was so sure Hermione was manipulating time in PoA that by the time we found out, I was almost disappointed. Almost - I'd like to have a Time Turner of my very own. --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************************* From silver_nikko at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 01:33:07 2001 From: silver_nikko at yahoo.com (Sam Newell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:33:07 -0000 Subject: intro, redemption of draco and biggest suprise/saddest moment Message-ID: <9kvdkj+lqap@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23964 Hi :) My name's Sam, I'm 17 and from the UK (currently enjoying my break from my as-levels and dreading results) I've been lurking here for a few days. I pretty much take the generational view (is that the right term) that History will more or less repeat itself. I've got this weird version in my head where Hermione is Lily and Draco is Snape. So I reckon, that Hermione will die to save Harry and will be made head girl (Or Ginny is Lily, by the time she gets to her 7th year, she will either be dead, severly traumatised or have developed the strength of character to be a really good leader and head girl- but I'm going off on a tangent) By comparing Snape to Draco, you find a character that is in conflict with the protagonists (smack me if I use a wrong word, I'm hopeless with these 'technical terms') and is percieved by their peers as being evil. I think at some point in book five, Harry will be responsible for saving Draco's life in some way. I think that Draco will go over to Voldemort's side quite willingly, he seems to be hiding behind a rather mean facade in the books and is probably insecure, and would therefore welcome the power, protection that being a death eater would bring, and the fear it would cause. But that he'd go back over to the 'good' side, possibly 'at great personal risk' I'm sure there's more I wanted to say about that, but it's gone 2am and my stream of consciousness has decided to have an early night. Biggest Suprise: I am an incredibly dense person sometimes, I don't often pick up on subtlety and I *cannot* read whodunnit novels as I invariably spoil it by reading the last page of the book when I'm only a few chapters in. (not with Robert Goddard though) Even with the Harry Potter books, I've had to really sit on my hands to stop myself from flicking forward to the last two/three chapters. Anyway, the point was is that I pretty much was suprised by all the plot twists that have been in the books so far. I think that the biggest shock, was that Moody was actually Crouch who was the bad guy. I just hadn't even considered the possibility. I was also suprised when it came out that all the mishaps happening to Harry in Chamber of Secrets were because of Dobby. Saddest moment: Probably Harry sat under the table in the pub in Hogsmeade learning just what Sirius Black had done to his family (back when we all thought him guilty) It was just the way he heard it and then couldn't talk to anyone about it without getting into trouble, especially when he learned later that Lupin knew his father. Anyway, it's really late and I'm working in the morning, Sam From john at walton.to Fri Aug 10 01:32:31 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 21:32:31 -0400 Subject: WELCOME to all new members Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23965 It strikes this Moderator that this might be a useful mail to send to the list at large. Please read it all the way through. There'll be a test later. HARRY POTTER FOR GROWNUPS A web version of this file (recommended) can be viewed here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/HPFGUWelcome .htm <<< We expect that you will fully understand the beauty of the softly humming computer with its shimmering screen, the delicate power of energy that can creep through human nerves, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses... we can teach you how to bottle words, brew theories, even stopper boredom... >>> __________ Hello and welcome to the Harry Potter for Grownups discussion group! This message comes to you on the finest grade e-parchment, direct from our Hexquarters (located in a rarely seen, draughty wing of Hogwarts Castle). Unlike the standard Yadda Yadda Yahoo! greeting, this document is actually worth reading, as it tells you all you need to know about the club, its crooked staircases and secret corridors. _____WHO ARE WE? We're a diverse group of adults dedicated to in-depth, thought-provoking and fun discussions of the Harry Potter books (and the movies, merchandising and other aspects of the HP phenomenon). While there is no age requirement to join the group, you should note that most of our members are over 18. Mature teenagers may enjoy the group, but may find themselves more at home in a group of their peers. We are a large group (well over 1,200 members now), and we post a high volume of messages each day (usually between 50 and 150). _____LIST ELVES We have a group of eight List Elves to help new members feel welcome and get off to the right start in our group. You can expect a personal message from one of the List Elves soon after you join the group. If you want to contact the Elves before you post or to ask questions, please send an e-Owl to: HP4GUElves at yahoo.com. Whatever you do, don't send them clothes - we'll never see them again! _____FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS We have a handy file for new members with answers to questions that are often asked (called the VFAQs for short). We strongly encourage you to read this file before posting anything to the group. You can find it at the following link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm A team of volunteers has also compiled a series of substantive FAQ-based essays on topics ranging from Hermione Granger, through Wizarding World: Geography to Animal Characters. The content of these documents is drawn from the 31,000+ messages posted to the list and about 60% of these are available for viewing at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ _____SISTER GROUPS We have several related groups that you should know about. OT-Chatter (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter) All Off-Topic and some HP discussions (see the group description for details). Announcements (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-Announcements) General interest announcements (see group description for details). Archives (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives) Contains our first 7,000+ messages from our former Yahoo! Club. Graphics; Chatscripts; HP-Tour: You can link to these groups from our Group Portkey (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/%20%20Portkey.htm) _____NETIQUETTE We ask you to pay attention to spelling, punctuation and grammar in your posts, and stress that all members should observe common sense, courtesy and good netiquette at all times. We strongly encourage you to read and follow our Netiquette Guidelines: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI PS.htm _____COMMONLY-USED SHORTHAND (ACRONYMS) You'll soon find that many of our members employ some common HP-related and general cyberspace shorthand when posting to the group. To help you navigate this new language, we've created a file with commonly used shorthand terms and acronyms. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/HPforGrownup s-shorthand.htm _____CLUB ACTIVITIES We have weekly, targeted discussions (based on one or two chapters from one of the books and a character summary or general topical sketch, such as Hogwarts or Spells). You can find details on the upcoming discussions in the Files section of the group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion%20Summaries) We have a lively chat every Sunday afternoon (evening in the UK & Europe), and the details for joining the chat room can also be found in the Files area. We almost always have member polls in progress, so please take a look at the Polls section (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls). Finally, keep an eye out for list announcements from Joywitch about our regular quizzes and contests (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HP4GU%20Contest/) Please remember that all contest entries must be sent to HP4GUCon at aol.com and not posted to the list. _____LEGAL STUFF In posting to this group, you grant the Moderators the right and license to use the content of your messages in other contexts. At this time, the Moderators intend to use this permission only for purposes of archiving and creating topical FAQs for the group, but reserve the right to use them for other purposes. If you have any concerns about infringement of your copyright, you are advised to contact the Moderators. _____MAGICAL MODERATOR TEAM Your Magical Moderator Team can be reached by e-Owl at: HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Penny Linsenmayer (Houston, TX, USA) Jim Flanagan (North Carolina, USA) John Walton (New York, USA) Neil Ward (London, UK) If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact the List Elves or the Moderators. We're here to help you! The Magical Moderators HPforGrownups From mindyatime at juno.com Fri Aug 10 03:21:05 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:21:05 -0400 Subject: I am.... Message-ID: <20010809.232120.-456897.1.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23966 thanks to a tip from a fellow groupie, I found the sites to be sorted and compared. Yeah, I am a Gryffindor! Hurrah! But when I was compared to a probable character, I was diagnosed as... DEEP BREATH... Hermione for first place and Ron for second place... hmmm, am I likeable, or what??? From catlady at wicca.net Fri Aug 10 03:23:28 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:23:28 -0000 Subject: Sirius in Shrieking Shack In-Reply-To: <9ks65l+kigb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kvk3g+b5nt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23967 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Julie Balfour" wrote: > as if Harry actually killing someone with magic is a possibility! > He has not even heard of Avada Kedavra at this point, so I don't > see what we are supposed to think he is going to do,exactly... > Any thoughts/opinions on this? 1) Levitate something heavy and drop it on the victim from a height. (Similar to Ron levitating the troll's club and accidentally bashing the troll on the head with it). 2) Conjure up ropes (as we have seen various adult wizards to, to tie someone up), conjure them tied around the victim's neck, pull tight. 3) Conjure up a nice soft fluggy pillow and conjure it pressed over the victim's face. 4) Conjure up an ax and levitate it to whack the victim in the head. 5) Transfigure part of the wall of his aorta (that is the big artery that leaves the heart and soon splits into separate arteries toward the upper and lower body) into Kleenex (tm). Between the wetness of the blood it carries and the pressure of the blood it carries, the Kneelex will soon dissolve or tear, and the victim will die of internal hemmorhage. (My favorite: I wrote a fic in which someone commits suicide this way, except it was sand rather than klnnex) From joym999 at aol.com Fri Aug 10 03:40:13 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:40:13 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #11 Message-ID: <9kvl2t+htdn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23968 I am happy to report that we have many logical people on this list. Twenty-three people, if I counted right, correctly solved the logic puzzle posted last week. They are: Jen Faulkner; Cheryl Dimof; Media Phen; lady.nymphaea (Meril); Incitatus/Catriona; Laura; Elena Maestri; Natalie; AGgirl1; old_wych (Anne); - Joy -; Nethilia De Lobo; *Vicki Granger the Charmed One*; Gaynor Thomas; Pippin; Kelly the Yarn Junkie; Catherine Coleman; Luce (DrivesLucy); Julia Steinberg; Brandon; Florence; Sherrie Wollenhaupt; Kathy (kcbenzin). Note that Jen Faulkner, the first to submit her answer, sent in her entry less than an hour after it was posted! Do we need a new Harry Potter book to read or what? Here is the solution: Amy Gryffindor 3rd year maple unicorn hair 9" Penny Gryffindor 7th year beech dragon heartstring 15" Neil Hufflepuff 1st year oak phoenix feather 7" John Ravenclaw 4th year walnut veela hair 8 ?" Amanda Slytherin 5th year mahogany troll skin 11 ?" (that is a one-half symbol after the 8 and the 11 for John and Amandas wands, for those of you whose email systems like to gobble symbols.) The five wand lengths are 7"(clue 7), 8?" (clue 8), 9" (clue 13), 11?"(clue 8), and 15"(clue 4). The five students are Penny (clue 1), John (clue 1), Neil (clue 1), Amanda (clue 2) and Amy (clue 12). The five students are each in a different year ? there is a 1st year (clue 4), a 3rd year (clue 1), a 4th year (clue 8), a 5th year (clue 1), and a 7th year (clue 6, since the Head Girl is a 7th year and yes I know that is never explicitly stated in the books). The five wands are each made of a different type of wood ? oak (clue 2), beech (clue 2), mahogany (clue 5), oak (clue 10), and walnut (clue 13). The five wands each contain a different magical substance ? unicorn hair (clue 2), dragon heartstring (clue 4), phoenix feather (clue 10, and if you didn't know that Harry's wand has a phoenix feather in it you are banned from this list), veela hair (clue 11), and troll skin (clue 12, and yeech!). Penny is the 7th year (clue 6), and is in Gryffindor (clue 6), owns the longest (clue therefore the 15") wand (clue 6) which contains a dragon heartstring (clue 4) and is made of beech (clue 2). Since Penny owns the beech wand, clue 9 tells us that there must be 2 students from Gryffindor, both girls. Since the five students are 3 girls and 2 boys (clue 3), the Slytherin 5th year must be a girl (clue 1). Since Penny is in her 7th year, the other Gryffindor girl must be the 3rd year girl. Therefore Neil and John must be the 1st and 4th years and one must be in Ravenclaw and the other in Hufflepuff. We know from clues 7 and 4 that Neil is a 1st year [and that his wand is made of oak (clue 2) and has a phoenix feather (clue 10)], so John must be the 4th year Ravenclaw mentioned in clue 8 and Neil must be in Hufflepuff. The 3rd year Gryffindor girl can not be Amanda, who has played Quidditch for 4 years (clue 5), and so must be Amy, which means that Amanda must be the Slytherin 5th year, with a mahogany (clue 5), 11?" wand (clue 2 and 8). Amy's wand is made of maple (clue 9). Since we now know what 4 of the wands are made of, John's must be walnut, and since he is the Ravenclaw his wand must have a veela hair (clue 11). The 9" wand has a unicorn hair (clue 2), so Amanda's wand must contain troll skin (clue 12). From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Aug 10 03:54:52 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:54:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book Five Publishing Date - Bad News, Old News? In-Reply-To: <9kup7b+jt2a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B72F89C.19221.1B0AF4B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 23969 On 9 Aug 2001, at 19:44, mgrantwich at yahoo.com wrote: > "There is no writer's block - on the contrary, I am writing away very > happily," said J.K. Rowling in a letter published Thursday in The > Scotsman newspaper.... > > No date has been set for the publication of book five, and The > Scotsman suggested on Wednesday that the 35-year-old author was > suffering from creative block. Did anyone check up on the reporter at _The Scotsman_ who wrote that Jo had a "block"?... Is she by any chance an unregistered animagus who can become a beetle? :) -- Dave From banjoken at optonline.net Fri Aug 10 04:02:54 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 04:02:54 -0000 Subject: What gave people the idea Sirius was Voldemort's No. 2? In-Reply-To: <9kv96h+vptv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kvmde+1ttp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23970 > If the general population had learned that Sirius was NOT the >Secret Keeper and that Pettigrew was, they would not assume >Pettigrew was It's important to remember here that the general population didn't even know there was a secret keeper. If I recall Fudge's conversation correctly, nobody knew about the Potters going into hiding, or having the charm put on them. All they average wizard knows is that the day after the Potters were killed, Pettigrew cornered Black, and Black destroyed the whole block and killed 13 muggles. If this is all they knew, it would seem pretty reasonable to assume that Black was working for Voldemort. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Aug 10 04:14:28 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 06:14:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book Five Publishing Date - Bad News, Old News? In-Reply-To: <3B72F89C.19221.1B0AF4B@localhost> Message-ID: <20010810041428.3421.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23971 Maybe it was Monty Python's "And now to something completely different- A Scotsman on a Horse"! Susanna/pigwidgeon37 :) --- Dave Hardenbrook ha scritto:
On 9 Aug 2001, at 19:44, mgrantwich at yahoo.com wrote:
> "There is no writer's block - on the contrary, I am writing away very
> happily," said J.K. Rowling in a letter published Thursday in The
> Scotsman newspaper....
>
> No date has been set for the publication of book five, and The
> Scotsman suggested on Wednesday that the 35-year-old author was
> suffering from creative block.

Did anyone check up on the reporter at _The Scotsman_ who
wrote that Jo had a "block"?... Is she by any chance an
unregistered animagus who can become a beetle? :)


-- Dave
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From joym999 at aol.com Fri Aug 10 04:15:44 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 04:15:44 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #12 -- The Mirror of Erised Message-ID: <9kvn5g+74ov@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23972 Hello, L.O.O.N.s, contest fans, HPnuts, kneazles, and everyone else. It's time for another contest! Yay!!!!! I know everybody likes the puzzles the best, but they are a lot harder to create than the speculative and creative contests, so if you've already sharpened your pencil in the hopes of finding a new puzzle, you will have to wait another week. Or two. This week we're going to speculate. This is a topic which has come up from time to time, but I would like to explore it even further. The topic is: The Mirror of Erised. We know that Harry sees his family; and Ron sees himself as the best of the Weasleys, but what about everyone else? Dumbledore says that he sees warm socks, but do you believe him? What about Hermione? Dobby? Neville? Sirius? Snape? Filch? Crookshanks? Send me a paragraph or two of speculation about a character in HP and what you think she or he would see in the Mirror of Erised, and why. (The "why" part is very important ? please don't send in one line without backing it up somehow ? we want explanations, no matter how weird or convoluted or fantastic.) If you are sick of speculating about whether Hermione would see herself as Minister of Magic or leading a mass demonstration of 100,000 elves, how about this: Speculate about your fellow listies. What would Penny Linsenmeyer see in the Mirror of Erised? (My guess is a sleeping baby, or maybe a waterproof house.) And I know exactly what Steve Vander Ark would see ? JKR handing him her newly written treatise (which would be the size of a large watermelon) entitled "Every Moment of Every Day of Harry Potter's Life, from the Day He Was Born Until the Present." And in case you're thinking of getting fresh, and daring to tell the Contest Witch what you think she'd see ? I'll tell you right now that I've ALREADY looked in the Mirror of Erised and it showed me exactly what I knew it would ? Antonio Banderas. Sigh. Please submit your entries BY EMAIL to HP4GUCon at aol.com. (Save your entry since there have been a lot of problems with sending email from the website. You will receive a confirmation from me when I receive it; if you don't please resubmit.) --Joywitch From katzefan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 06:02:29 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 06:02:29 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Barty Jr (long) In-Reply-To: <9kuj29+q24t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kvtdl+cfol@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23973 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > WARNING: The motto of this whole post is IMO, so I didn't bother to > write it every time I make some conjecture of my own > > > Finally it has come to my mind who Barty Jr. reminds me of: It's > Count Dracula's faithful servant Renfield!! The coin fell at the > moment I reread what he tells Dumbledore under the influence of > Veritaserum, the key phrase being: ?And then- my Master came to me!", ................................. > He spent one year in Azkaban and left the prison dying (GoF: ?They > sensed one healthy and one dying person enter and one healthy and one > dying person leave"). What exactly were his symptoms? Was he dying > because he had stopped eating? Had his Dementor- induced state of > depression become so bad that he had simply abandoned himself? Susanna - love the comparison to Dracula; how could I have forgotten one of my earliest, most-favourite stories? The 'one healthy, one dying' who entered Azkaban were Barty's father and mother - SHE was dying at the time. After she and Barty took their respective Polyjuice Potions, he 'became' her and that's why the Dementors then sensed 'one healthy, one dying' person also leaving Azkaban. From katzefan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 06:08:14 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 06:08:14 -0000 Subject: Draco being redeemed In-Reply-To: <9kv29o+3pi0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9kvtoe+9et6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23974 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., keith.fraser at s... wrote: > As anyone who knows me will tell you, I am a strong opponent of > the "Draco-is-so-sexy-and-tortured-let's-put-him-in-leather- and-make- > him-into-a-good-guy-and-schnoogle-him-senseless" school of > thought. ;) Slight exaggeration, but you see what I mean. > > Fanfic weirdness aside, I don't see any reason not to make Draco a > bad guy. With Voldemort recruiting new Death Eaters, it seems likely > that some of Harry's schoolmates will join the Dark Side. I can't > think of a better candidate than Draco. And JKR more or less debunked > that rumour about Draco and Harry teaming up to fight evil months > ago... > > Keith "How Freudian" Fraser BINGO. Some people are disadvantaged ... and some people are just nasty, and all the excuses in the world won't change them. From katzefan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 06:18:52 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 06:18:52 -0000 Subject: LOONS Message-ID: <9kvucc+q879@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23975 Pleeeeze, I'm dying of curiousity - what are LOONS? Or did I miss something along the way? From joy0823 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 10 06:29:24 2001 From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 02:29:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOONS References: <9kvucc+q879@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <012d01c12165$ccc105a0$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23976 Check out the Very Frequently Asked Questions at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm . According to that, LOON is the League Of Obsessed Nitpickers. This has been a message from your friendly neighborhood list elf. ~Joy~ http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 Last Movie Seen: "Down to Earth" Now Reading: "Come Together" by Josie Lloyd & Emlyn Rees Katzefan wrote: > Pleeeeze, I'm dying of curiousity - what are LOONS? Or did I > miss something along the way? From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Aug 10 07:01:00 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:01:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts about Barty Jr (long) In-Reply-To: <9kvtdl+cfol@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010810070100.4726.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23977 I know, that's exactly the point: So not only Barty's mother was dying, but he was as well. Therefore I asked myself- and everybody-: Why was Barty "dying"? His mother was dying from grief but he? Polyjuice potion only alters your body. Susanna/pigwidgeon37 --- katzefan at yahoo.com ha scritto: The 'one healthy, one dying' who entered Azkaban were Barty's
father and mother - SHE was dying at the time. After she and
Barty took their respective Polyjuice Potions, he 'became' her and
that's why the Dementors then sensed 'one healthy, one dying'
person also leaving Azkaban.


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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From oppen at cnsinternet.com Fri Aug 10 08:09:32 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:09:32 -0500 Subject: Comments on Draco, Rita, and Hermione Message-ID: <021501c12173$ca8d5460$a3c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 23978 Well, once again I come out of my usual lurker-mode to add my two knuts' worth to some ongoing discussions. I apologize for not tying this post to the discussions with the Subject line, but since I get the list in digest-form, this is the best I can do. Firstly: Will Draco Reform, and Can He? Let's not forget, that Draco's still awfully young at the end of GoF, and still very much under his father's influence. His comment to the Trio aboard the Express was horrible---cruel, hateful and intended to hurt---but he's more-or-less in the same mental state as a long-time cult member at this stage of the game. When and if he's really confronted with _how_ evil Lord V is, or finds that Voldemort has no compunctions about hurting even his closest supporters (remember what he did to Wormtail? Nasty piece of work that Wormtail was and is, I couldn't help but feel awful for him, lying there screaming and bleeding while Voldemort calmly tells him "Robe me.") he might well change his mind. At the end of GoF, he's only fifteen or sixteen---and at that age, even _I_ hadn't attained the pinnacles of human perfection I've achieved in the years since I was that old. ;} Rita Skeeter- Geez Louise--what a nasty, low-down piece of work! She is _NOT_ a good journalist; she's a scandal-monger and vulture, who doesn't care who she hurts or how, just so long as she gets plenty of copy into the press. I _could_ say that things like outing Hagrid as a half-giant fell within her duties as a reporter, but when she published that awful article about what a tramp and chippy Hermione Granger was, to get back at Hermione for dissing her in Hogsmeade, she was about as cruel and cowardly as anybody could get. Pitting Neville Longbottom against Professor Snape, in comparison, would be a much fairer fight. I wouldn't be wildly surprised to find that she's a closet Death Eater, or Vold-symp, herself; she'd fit right in with the DEs---and, come to it, I'd bet that Lord V has sympathizers in the wizard press. (And, in passing, while I'm thinking about it---had I been Ron, when I found out that my mum _believed_ what Skeeter said, I'd send her a very stiff note, and if that didn't do it, I'd consider a Howler. _Can_ Hogwarts students send Howlers? How much do they cost? Inquiring minds want to know!) I thought Hermione was being terminally silly about Gilderoy Lockhart in CoS. However, leave us not forget that brilliant student though she was and is, in CoS she _was_ about twelve or so. She had every right to not always act as though she were in her twenties or thirties---and, let us not forget, even Molly Weasley, who's normally a pretty level-headed woman, was all giggly and flustered over Lockhart. Criticizing Hermione about going all gooey over Lockhart reminds me of a line from one of Miss Manners' books: "I once asked a six-year-old person how it could be so terminally childish, and was struck by the justice of its response: 'I _am_ a child.'" For that matter, just how street-smart about men in general IS Hermione? She's book-smart, there's nobody better for that in the books---but what sort of social life does she lead? From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 12:30:47 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (Alfredo Ramirez) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 05:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts about Barty Jr (long) In-Reply-To: <20010810070100.4726.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010810123047.68846.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23979 Why was Barty "dying"? Barty was dying simply because he was in Azkaban. I don't think the dementators actually perform a medical analysis of people, they can simply sense that kind of thing empathically. Barty, like most prisonners in Azkaban, was slowly dying of despair. JB __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 13:30:59 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:30:59 -0000 Subject: Draco being redeemed In-Reply-To: <9kv29o+3pi0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l0nmj+3tp1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23980 Keith:"As anyone who knows me will tell you, I am a strong opponent of the 'Draco-is-so-sexy-and-tortured-let's-put-him-in-leather-and-make- him-into-a-good-guy-and-schnoogle-him-senseless" school of thought." Amen, Brother. All fanfic that features Draco in this way basically takes the Draco we all know, tosses him out the window, and replaces him with a pretty-boy pod-Draco with James Dean's personality and Brad Pitt's butt. It's just not the same guy who gloated over Cedric Diggory's death, that's all. Ketih:"Slight exaggeration, but you see what I mean." What exaggeration? *You* didn't exaggerate. Keith:"Fanfic weirdness aside, I don't see any reason not to make Draco a bad guy. With Voldemort recruiting new Death Eaters, it seems likely that some of Harry's schoolmates will join the Dark Side. I can't think of a better candidate than Draco." Me neither. There's one Draco redemption scenario I can allow: If Draco, who thinks bad is cool, gets some blood 'n' brains splattered on his own robes, he could become a reluctant good guy a la Snape; but he'd never be anything like likable, and I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. The discouraging part is that Draco probably *will* get all the babes. From booleanfox at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 14:15:10 2001 From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (Julie Balfour) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:15:10 -0000 Subject: Sirius in Shrieking Shack In-Reply-To: <9kvk3g+b5nt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l0q9e+vm2r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23981 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: 1) Levitate something heavy and drop it on the victim from a height. > (Similar to Ron levitating the troll's club and accidentally bashing > the troll on the head with it). > > 2) Conjure up ropes (as we have seen various adult wizards to, to > tie someone up), conjure them tied around the victim's neck, pull > tight. > > 3) Conjure up a nice soft fluggy pillow and conjure it > pressed over the victim's face. > > 4) Conjure up an ax and levitate it to whack the victim in the head. > > 5) Transfigure part of the wall of his aorta (that is the big artery > that leaves the heart and soon splits into separate arteries toward > the upper and lower body) into Kleenex (tm). Between the wetness of > the blood it carries and the pressure of the blood it carries, the > Kneelex will soon dissolve or tear, and the victim will die of > internal hemmorhage. (My favorite: I wrote a fic in which someone > commits suicide this way, except it was sand rather than klnnex) Oooh! I like some of these - the reason I would make a rubbish witch is that I have no imagination. However, I'm not sure how adept Harry is yet at conjuring things up - in the classes up to this point (that we have been privy to) I don't recall them being able to make things appear out of thin air. (As an aside - which lesson would they learn that in anyway? Charms?) The transfiguration one seems to difficult as well - they are still on hedgehogs to pincushions at this stage aren't they? I take your point entirely that there are many ways that he could have killed Sirius, I suppose I just got caught up in the idea that he was going to use an actual spell and I remember reading it for the first and thinking even then that he simply doesn't know enough magic to be able to do any lasting damage - there's only so much 'stupefying' that a young boy can do... Julie B, thinking that Catlady must write some pretty morbid fanfic... From usergoogol at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 14:47:44 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:47:44 -0000 Subject: House Elves (are like serfs) In-Reply-To: <20010809.204919.-445181.11.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9l0s6g+h472@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23982 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > Where and how does one go about requiring house-elves? And are they > indentured servants for life? Boy, I could sure use one. They come with a house. Like (actually, very much like) the ancient serfs of yore, they are bound to the land (building.) Getting house-elves after they are freed is, for some odd reason, not easy. I'm not sure why, but GoF, seems to say (I'll quote it later) that it isn't easy for house-elves to get a new job. So, it seems that people can't just say, "Hi. Do you want to be my house-elf?" If that was so, the Weasely's would obviously have a house-elf. Just look at the name of my reply.... I really like the comparason I came up with. From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 15:37:22 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:37:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] what is 'fanfic'? References: Message-ID: <00a101c121b2$59698f30$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 23983 Mindy wondered, > I know I sound incredibly naiive but can someone explain to me what a > 'fanfic' is and where I can find some of those fanfic's? Ali kindly suggested, > Funny you should ask.... ;} > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/fanfic.html And then, of course, there's http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243/resources/newbie.html! Friendly, informative, and brand new. Pity Ali forgot to mention it ... ;-) Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who really likes Ali's FAQ, even if it is still in beta, and is looking forward to seeing it all spiffed up in Diagon Alley's html.) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From katzefan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 16:49:32 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:49:32 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Barty Jr (long) In-Reply-To: <20010810123047.68846.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9l13as+o805@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23984 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alfredo Ramirez wrote: > > > Why was Barty "dying"? > > > > Barty was dying simply because he was in Azkaban. I don't think the > dementators actually perform a medical analysis of people, they can > simply sense that kind of thing empathically. Barty, like most > prisonners in Azkaban, was slowly dying of despair. > > JB > Good point. When I read that I just assumed that Barty was, in fact, not dying at all, but that as long as he had his mother's appearance, he would also have her ill health and that would be what the Dementors picked up on. But Azkaban is not exactly conducive to a long and healthy life.... ____________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 17:29:00 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:29:00 -0000 Subject: Draco being redeemed In-Reply-To: <9kvtoe+9et6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l15ks+nd2n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23985 <*snip*> > > As anyone who knows me will tell you, I am a strong opponent > of the "Draco-is-so-sexy-and-tortured-let's-put-him-in-leather- > > and-make-him-into-a-good-guy-and-schnoogle-him-senseless" school of thought. ;) Slight exaggeration, but you see what I mean. > > > > Fanfic weirdness aside, I don't see any reason not to make > > Draco a bad guy. <*snip*> Hope I did the "snipping" correctly! Anyway - there is a "Draco-as- closet-fantasy-leather-goodboy" contingent? Eww. He's just bad. Sometimes people are that way. But I have to play devil's advocate for one second - since JKR has held the theme of "it's not what you are born with, it's what you choose to become", I think there is a possibility that Draco could go over to the dark side at first (because of his family ties/blood and house affiliation), then change his mind and want to do good as the result of something that deeply shocks or scares him. IMHO, Draco losing his life as a result of doing something to further the common good seems plausible. But right now I think that Draco is Hogwarts' Big Bad, and I hope he stays that way. From vheggie at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 18:14:27 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:14:27 -0000 Subject: Draco being redeemed In-Reply-To: <9l15ks+nd2n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l18a3+delq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23986 > IMHO, Draco losing his life as a result of doing something to further > the common good seems plausible. But right now I think that Draco is > Hogwarts' Big Bad, and I hope he stays that way. How well would Draco respond to no longer being the 'big bad'; to taking orders from others - especially if they were people he had previously disliked, or grew to despise. Would Draco willingly play second (or third, or fourth) fiddle? From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Fri Aug 10 18:53:50 2001 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monzaba at poczta.onet.pl) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:53:50 -0000 Subject: Who trusted Sirius? (was: Sirius V's #2?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9l1aju+o9be@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23987 Actually, I think it's quite shocking that James and Lily seem to be the *only* people who trusted Sirius. Everybody else, even those who knew him really well: Remus, Hagrid, McGonagall - were certain he betrayed his best friends and slaughtered the muggles. Still worse, it seems that Dumbledore shared their belief. I think he didn't quite trust any of James's friends, because he volunteered to be the Potters' Secret Keeper. He must have known that Sirius was thrown to Azkaban without trial and he didn't do anything about it. It came as a big surprise for me. After all, Dumbledore vouched for Snape and didn't care that Moody thought it's crazy. As for Snape, I guess he'd been suspecting Sirius since the very moment he heard about a traitor in Potters' inner circle. After all, from his point of view, Sirius was capable even of murder of a perfectly innocent sixteen year old boy... Still, if everybody was sure that Sirius was one of the darkest of Dark Wizards, why didn't they bring him to trial? Just to show him how much they hated him - and in order to get some information about other foul Death Eaters? Of course, they might have thought that Sirius would start framing innocent people, but a large dose of Veritaserum certainly would help? Monika (The Snape fan) who thinks it was rather stupid of Severus to swallow Black's story and go to Shrieking Shack From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Aug 10 19:01:43 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:01:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who trusted Sirius? (was: Sirius V's #2?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23988 > > Still, if everybody was sure that Sirius was one of the darkest of > Dark Wizards, why didn't they bring him to trial? Just to show him > how much they hated him - and in order to get some information about > other foul Death Eaters? Of course, they might have thought that > Sirius would start framing innocent people, but a large dose of > Veritaserum certainly would help? Just IMHO, but.... It's very good for Lucius Malfoy if everyone thinks Sirius Black (brilliant young wizard as he is) was Voldemort's Deputy. It's very good if he gets framed for the murders of the muggles, and internally for setting up the murders of Lily and James. It's very good if he gets thrown into a place where his mind is *sure* to get addled and break within a year or less. It's very bad if he gets a trial. It's very bad if he gets Veritasserum. It's very bad if Ministry officials keep wondering if Voldemort's Deputy is still lurking on the outside, moving among witches and wizards as if he'd never done anything wrong. So Lucius (and likely a few other death eaters) have a VERY vested interest in *suggesting* (not telling, not ordering, not Imperio-ing) that the Ministry lock that crazy sirius black up and throw away the key. Throw him to the dementors. Make him silent. And IMHO, I've always thought that Pettigrew *planned* for Sirius to come after him, even BEFORE everything went wrong for Voldemort when he tried to kill Harry. I think that Peter was supposed to go *back* to dumbledore's side after the Potters were killed and continue to pass informaiton about DUMBLEDORE to Voldemort - I mean, killing the Potters couldn't've been the be-all-and-end-all of his grasp for power- he still was opposed by the Ministry (well, officially) and by Dumbledore, and there was more fighting and destroying for him to do. And they needed a way to destroy Sirius, because after the three Potters were killed, he would know exactly what Peter was - he had to be disgraced and destroyed immediately afterwards. They may've had 2 plans - #1 - that Peter was supposed to hang around the house so when Sirius came, he could destroy him wiht whatever charm-power VOldemort had given him, or #2 if he didn't come to the house, he was supposed to allow Sirius to find him and do, well, exactly what he did. And when Voldemort was destroyed, Peter knew he was in ever more danger, and he had to go through with the plan to destroy sirius to save his own skin, especially when there was no Voldemort to protect him. From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 19:05:26 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:05:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco being redeemed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23989 >Keith:"As anyone who knows me will tell you, I am a strong opponent of >the 'Draco-is-so-sexy-and-tortured-let's-put-him-in-leather-and-make- >him-into-a-good-guy-and-schnoogle-him-senseless" school of thought." *falls down with laugher* Well, I'll speak up and say that I think I'm part of this camp. In fact, I remember encountering people who sympathized with Draco on this list and thinking "What are they going on about?" Draco has always been an nuisance in my mind and hardly attractive... However, I do concede the possibility that Draco can "redeem" himself. However, JKR had better go about it carefully or I won't believe it and will simply roll my eyes. I personally don't think that he would ever "turn" unless there is a huge trauma in his life. I'm talking big, like the death of someone he loves. And, I'm sorry to say, I don't see much evidence for Draco loving anybody. However, since we haven't seen a lot of how Draco feels, it's very possible that JKR will change this in the future... Draco has grown up all his life in a certain atmosphere, with particular messages. While it *is* possible for the child to reject their upbringing, I'm under the impression its rare. However, feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong. ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com New and Improved!...well, kinda... "But the girl on the car in the parking lot says: 'Man, you should try to take a shot Can't you see my walls are crumbling...'" - Counting Crows "Round Here" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Fri Aug 10 19:11:23 2001 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monzaba at poczta.onet.pl) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 19:11:23 -0000 Subject: Draco being redeemed In-Reply-To: <9l15ks+nd2n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l1bkr+nmfa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23990 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > <*snip*> > > > Fanfic weirdness aside, I don't see any reason not to make > > > Draco a bad guy. > <*snip*> > > Anyway - there is a "Draco-as- > closet-fantasy-leather-goodboy" contingent? Eww. He's just bad. > Sometimes people are that way. > > But I have to play devil's advocate for one second - since JKR has > held the theme of "it's not what you are born with, it's what you > choose to become", I think there is a possibility that Draco could go > over to the dark side at first (because of his family ties/blood and > house affiliation), then change his mind and want to do good as the > result of something that deeply shocks or scares him. I can think of only one - and highly impropable! - situation that could make Draco do such a thing. If Death Eaters attacked his mother, I guess he might start hating them. But, as I said, I don't think it's likely to happen. I dislike Draco as much as I like Snape. For me, the little git is nasty, evil and stupid - a really dangerous mix. Draco's behaviour reminds me of that old, old joke: Two inmates are talking: "How did you get here?" "Because of my son's essay" "???" "They were to write what their daddies do for a living and the little idiot told the whole truth." Monika (The Snape fan) From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Aug 10 19:14:32 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:14:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco being redeemed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23991 Amber, you know I adore you, but... > Draco has grown up all his life in a certain atmosphere, with > particular > messages. While it *is* possible for the child to reject > their upbringing, > I'm under the impression its rare. However, feel free to > enlighten me if I'm > wrong. Happens every day. In canon, Barty Crouch (to come full circle :) rejected whatever messages he heard at home that Dark Wizardry was something not to be practiced, yet he knew every unforgivable curse (likely when he was in his teens). Tom Riddle was likely not raised to be a serial killer, yet he turned out to be one. As a child, Peter Pettigrew never gave his friends any indication that he would commit mass murder, or that he would betray his friends to save his own skin, yet he did. And on the other side, Harry Potter was raised in a house of intolerance, bigotry, snap opinions, belief in the death penalty and a hatred of imagination and wizardry. And look what he's turning out to be. In the real world, it's also a daily occurance. Look at all the people who change religions, for a simple example. Or the newspaper article I read about a year ago about the granddaughter of one of the men involved in a race-related killing in the South in the 60s (it has been 2 years or so since I read the article, but I think he was involved in the Birmingham Church Bombing). Of course they all needed to see and especially *feel* something to make them effect the change. But it does happen. From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 19:22:56 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Empress Kali) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 19:22:56 -0000 Subject: The pupil numbers debate- intakes post 11? In-Reply-To: <3B714347.13421.398D8C6@localhost> Message-ID: <9l1cag+126t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23992 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" wrote: > On 8 Aug 2001, at 11:14, vheggie at y... wrote: > > ....I always had the idea that Lupin was admitted late, since he > implies he was excluded until Dumbledore became headmaster.... I'm a newbie and hope I'm not out of my league here... In PoA, Lupin says that it had looked doubtful that he would be admitted to Hogwarts. It says nothing of being rejected; in fact I wonder how a person could be technically rejected since it is the school who does the contacting...but I digress. I assumed it was due to the inherent discrimination against werewolves that Lupin wouldn't be allowed to attend Hogwarts. I haven't seen any evidence of there being any late admittances either. In GoF, entrants are required to be a certain age because presumably they'd had the training to be able to successfully handle all the tasks. This seems to imply that grade is determined by age. Then again, maybe I just spend too much time reading HP and pondering over it. :-) ~Bethany~ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 19:56:38 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 19:56:38 -0000 Subject: Ginny's age - Mystery pic - Hedwig - C&G - Sirius the Spy Message-ID: <9l1e9m+co4h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23993 Mecki wrote: > One thing that really bugged me though, was Ginnys age!! I really > couldn't believe she was going to Hogwarts in CoS. When I read PS, I > imagined Ginny to be between 5 and 7 years old. Molly was holding >her > hand all the time, the "which platform"-scene and her crying when >the > train left. Her voice was described as that of a small girl, not a > ten-year- old. My daughter is nearly 8 and she would certainly > complain if I try to hold her hand all the time! I agree with most of this, but not with the crying. A lot of us cry at any kind of goodbye. I cried, much to my and my parents' surprise, when we left my sister at college, and I was fifteen and wasn't even close to my sister. (I did not, however, hold my mom's hand.) Her last brother is off to school--it's pretty emotional. There's a still, or possibly just a publicity shot, that I'm wondering about. Anyone want to take a guess at what this scene is?: http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery53.htm I checked the Animal Characters FAQ but still have the following question about Hedwig. Harry named her for someone he read about in A History of Magic; does anyone know of a famous sorcerer or such- like named Hedwig? Rrishi wrote: > Draco's Three (+ Crabbe and Goyle) are an imperfect evil foil to > Harry's Three. I can't think exactly why, and I don't have the books > at hand, so I'll save that for later. Thorry. Perhaps because we know so little about C & G. We never even hear them speak. Naturally we're going to know Ron and Hermione better, but in order to be a counterweight, C & G have to be a bit more fleshed-out. Kristin wrote: > Based on Snape's hatred of Remus and Sirius he may have supplied > information that both of them were spies. However James refused to > believe his oldest and dearest friend of such treachery. There may, > on the otherhand, have been doubts about Remus because of his > lycanthropy. James and Sirius didn't want to believe that Remus could > be the spy, but rumors about Voldemort contolling dark creatures > caused doubts and they knew someone had been passing information to > Voldemort. > If they had really thought things out though, they would have > realized it was Peter who was the spy. I lean toward the thought that Snape, or whoever tipped the Potters off (we don't know that it was Snape), didn't have a specific name for them, but could only tell them that it was one of a few people. Or perhaps "it has to have been someone who was at the house last Tuesday" or something like that. All of his rage about James's trust of Sirius is after the fact, when it becomes "clear" that Sirius was the spy. But it seems unlikely that Dumbledore's spy knew exactly who Voldemort's spy was *before* the Potters' murder, because how would he have that kind of certainty about Sirius, whom we know was innocent? Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------------- "Do you mean ter tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" Harry thought this was going a bit far. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone -------------------------------------------------------------- From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 20:14:06 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:14:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco being redeemed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23994 >From: "Tandy, Heidi" > >Amber, you know I adore you, but... *grin* Now how did I know you were going to reply to this post... >Happens every day. In canon, Barty Crouch (to come full circle :) >rejected whatever messages he heard at home that Dark Wizardry was >something not to be practiced, yet he knew every unforgivable curse >(likely when he was in his teens). Well, Hogwarts students are taught the unforgivable curses at school (at least that's my impression, though there's no hard evidence). And it'd be hard to forget spells are horrid as those. But besides that, he's a good example. >Tom Riddle was likely not raised to be a serial killer, yet he >turned out to be one. Does anybody raise a child to be a serial killer? But since we don't know details about how Tom was raised, I don't know if it's exactly a pertinent example... >As a child, Peter Pettigrew never gave his friends any indication that >he would commit mass murder, or that he would betray his friends to >save his own skin, yet he did. Good example. While we don't know much about Pettigrew's past, the shock that those who know him experienced when finding out he was the traitor suggests that they thought it out of character for him. I do wonder how Peter's homelife was... >And on the other side, Harry Potter was raised in a house of >intolerance, bigotry, snap opinions, belief in the death penalty and a >hatred of imagination and wizardry. And look what he's turning out to >be. Another excellent example. >In the real world, it's also a daily occurance. Look at all the people >who change religions, for a simple example. Or the newspaper article I >read about a year ago about the granddaughter of one of the men >involved in a race-related killing in the South in the 60s (it has >been 2 >years or so since I read the article, but I think he was >involved in the Birmingham Church Bombing). Of course they all needed >to see and especially *feel* something to make them effect the change. >But it does happen. Good points. *shrug* I said that in my post that I could be wrong. Psychologist, I am not. I know there's the possibility for Draco to reject his upbringing. I guess in my limited experience, I have seen people more likely to hug to their upbringings than reject them. And it takes a LOT for someone to radically change their life; people are stubborn in my experience and most likely to believe that THEY are right. I think that Draco has to experience a terrible loss to make him reexamine his life. My pet theory is that Lucius is going to be killed by Voldemort before the books are done and what Draco does in reaction is going to be a telling indicator of his character. (Of course, JKR will most likely prove me wrong!) As I said before, JKR had better handle Draco's "conversion" carefully if she decides to go that route. It's possible to be done well and I hope she plants seeds of this happening. I don't think that this is quite the situation where a surprise turnabout would be effective. But with three books/years left, she has the time to do so. ~Amber (Who's forgotten how tough it is to argue a point on this list...twenty Whomps by a Whomping Willow for me!) ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com New and Improved!...well, kinda... "But the girl on the car in the parking lot says: 'Man, you should try to take a shot Can't you see my walls are crumbling...'" - Counting Crows "Round Here" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 20:17:46 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:17:46 -0400 Subject: Mystery pic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 23995 >From: "Amy Z" > >There's a still, or possibly just a publicity shot, that I'm >wondering about. Anyone want to take a guess at what this scene is?: > >http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery53.htm Perhaps its the scene where the Trio are going through Flitwick's challenge? The one where they are supposed to fly around and capture the right key to the door? Except, I don't see any fluttering keys with wings... *frowns* ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com New and Improved!...well, kinda... "But the girl on the car in the parking lot says: 'Man, you should try to take a shot Can't you see my walls are crumbling...'" - Counting Crows "Round Here" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 20:20:35 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:20:35 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's House Message-ID: <9l1fmj+abb1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23996 Hello Potterites! I am new to this group, so perhaps this is a simple question, but the posts I searched on the topic didn't seem to have the answer. Has there been any specific mention of Pettigrew's house? I had assumed he was Gryfinndor, simply by virtue of being a Maurader. If he ended up in Gryfinndor, I'm sure he must have sat a long while on the sorting stool before the hat spat that one out. -Salutation, Cornflower O'Shea ps. I'm sad the poll on the character you identify with didn't have the Srting Hat. Another example of pro-wizard bias. Sigh... From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 10 20:38:52 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:38:52 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's House In-Reply-To: <9l1fmj+abb1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l1gos+9262@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23997 I'm new, too, and I've a further question on the same topic. Hagrid said, in the first book, that every wizard who ever went bad was in Slytherin. Does this mean that Sirius Black was in Slytherin? (We know he didn't go bad, but Hagrid certainly thinks he did.) Bente --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tenpinkpiggies at h... wrote: > Hello Potterites! I am new to this group, so perhaps this is a simple > question, but the posts I searched on the topic didn't seem to have > the answer. Has there been any specific mention of Pettigrew's house? > I had assumed he was Gryfinndor, simply by virtue of being a > Maurader. If he ended up in Gryfinndor, I'm sure he must have sat a > long while on the sorting stool before the hat spat that one out. > > -Salutation, > Cornflower O'Shea > > ps. I'm sad the poll on the character you identify with didn't have > the Srting Hat. Another example of pro-wizard bias. Sigh... From mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk Fri Aug 10 20:50:36 2001 From: mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:50:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mystery pic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010810214919.009f92a0@pop.freeserve.net> No: HPFGUIDX 23998 At 10/08/01 21:17, you wrote: > >From: "Amy Z" > > > >There's a still, or possibly just a publicity shot, that I'm > >wondering about. Anyone want to take a guess at what this scene is?: > > > >http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery53.htm > >Perhaps its the scene where the Trio are going through Flitwick's challenge? >The one where they are supposed to fly around and capture the right key to >the door? Except, I don't see any fluttering keys with wings... *frowns* Or maybe thats the scene where Harry gets the supreme Quidditch Broom (Thunderbolt or something like that - Cant remember and don't own all the books yet to check!) Martin Hooper AIM: martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 http://www.crosswinds.net/~martinjh99/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joy0823 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 10 21:00:07 2001 From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:00:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew's House References: <9l1gos+9262@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <008501c121df$705c3800$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 23999 IMHO, this "all bad wizards came from Slytherin" idea is just a stereotype, like "all movie moguls are Jewish" or "all college graduates are intelligent". I don't think it's possible for every bad wizard ever to be from Slytherin. That's just too unlikely, and it seems like Dumbledore or his predecessors would have taken some action to change the house system if it was the case. What a great way to cure the problem of Voldemort supporters! I think it has to be a generalization. Also, considering the amount of time that students seem to spend with people in their own houses, it seems likely that both Pettigrew and Sirius were in Gryffindor. Would James really have the opportunity to form such a close bond with two people he didn't share a common room or a Quidditch team with? I don't think so... ~Joy~ http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 Last Movie Seen: "Down to Earth" Now Reading: "Come Together" by Josie Lloyd & Emlyn Rees Bente wrote: > I'm new, too, and I've a further question on the same topic. Hagrid > said, in the first book, that every wizard who ever went bad was in > Slytherin. Does this mean that Sirius Black was in Slytherin? (We > know he didn't go bad, but Hagrid certainly thinks he did.) From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 21:21:15 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:21:15 -0000 Subject: Mystery pic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9l1j8b+2u6r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24000 >There's a still, or possibly just a publicity shot, that I'm >wondering about. Anyone want to take a guess at what this scene is?: > >http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery53.htm It looks like the Trio are admiring the broom that was delivered to Harry at the table in the Great Hall by Hedwig (which is part of the second trailer). From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 10 21:49:51 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:49:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mystery pic References: <9l1j8b+2u6r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B7456FE.A9ABCC19@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24001 mgrantwich at yahoo.com wrote: > >There's a still, or possibly just a publicity shot, that I'm > wondering about. Anyone want to take a guess at what this scene is?: > > > >http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery53.htm > > > It looks like the Trio are admiring the broom that was delivered to > Harry at the table in the Great Hall by Hedwig (which is part of the > second trailer). Looking at the stills from trailer #2 on the Leaky Cauldron site, in the pictures from the "Petrificus Totalis" scene and "In the Hogwarts library" the clothes are identical. So this picture must be from that sequence someplace. My brain is apparently off, I can't even hazard a guess as to more particular than that. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 10 21:52:20 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:52:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mystery pic References: <9l1j8b+2u6r@eGroups.com> <3B7456FE.A9ABCC19@texas.net> Message-ID: <3B745794.AFD4C72C@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24002 Amanda Lewanski wrote: only the truth when she said her brain was off. I forgot the link to the Cauldron stills; it's below my comment. > Looking at the stills from trailer #2 on the Leaky Cauldron site, in > the pictures from the "Petrificus Totalis" scene and "In the Hogwarts > library" the clothes are identical. So this picture must be from that > sequence someplace. My brain is apparently off, I can't even hazard a > guess as to more particular than that. http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery41.htm AND the original mystery pic URL is http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery53.htm --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sat Aug 11 02:23:22 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:23:22 -0000 Subject: Mystery pic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9l24uq+nlgk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24003 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > > >From: "Amy Z" > > > >There's a still, or possibly just a publicity shot, that I'm > >wondering about. Anyone want to take a guess at what this scene is?: > > > >http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery53.htm > > Perhaps its the scene where the Trio are going through Flitwick's challenge? > The one where they are supposed to fly around and capture the right key to > the door? Except, I don't see any fluttering keys with wings... *frowns* > > ~Amber > > ******** Well, if that's a Nimbus 2000 the designers obviously didn't read "Quidditch Through the Ages"! I'd guess perhaps the broom to catch the charmed key (those school brooms are pretty bent), but there seem to be clouds in the background. Perhaps it is just a publicity shot... -Cornflower O'Shea From editor at texas.net Sat Aug 11 03:34:11 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:34:11 -0500 Subject: Crookshanks FAQ Message-ID: <3B74A7B3.AD2F151B@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24004 Simon, you cover our earlier discussions about just what Crookshanks may be, but you make no mention of the interview where JKR does, in fact, say that Crookshanks has Kneazle blood. The debate over whether she says *part* Kneazle or *half* Kneazle (she says half!) aside, she pretty clearly has answered the question. Shouldn't that be in the FAQ? --Amanda From deeblite at home.com Sat Aug 11 03:43:20 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 23:43:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew's House In-Reply-To: <9l1gos+9262@eGroups.com> References: <9l1fmj+abb1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010810234149.00a58180@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24005 At 08:38 PM 8/10/01 +0000, you wrote: >I'm new, too, and I've a further question on the same topic. Hagrid >said, in the first book, that every wizard who ever went bad was in >Slytherin. Does this mean that Sirius Black was in Slytherin? (We >know he didn't go bad, but Hagrid certainly thinks he did.) I don't know why so many people think this. It was fairly obvious, to me at least, that Hagrid was just making a broad generalization.and it wasnt meant to be taken literally. Exaggerating for dramatic effect. That comment is most definitely NOT evidence that Sirius was a Slytherin. -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From lamppost42 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 11 04:06:02 2001 From: lamppost42 at hotmail.com (lamppost42 at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 04:06:02 -0000 Subject: Ginny's age - Mystery pic - Hedwig - C&G - Sirius the Spy In-Reply-To: <9l1e9m+co4h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l2ava+lrnf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24006 Amy Z wrote: > I checked the Animal Characters FAQ but still have the following > question about Hedwig. Harry named her for someone he read about in > A History of Magic; does anyone know of a famous sorcerer or such- > like named Hedwig? I don't know of a sorcerer/witch/wizard/warlock/what-have-you named Hedwig, though I have a literary reference (albeit of dubious relevance). In Henrik Ibsens' play "The Wild Duck," Hedwig is a young girl whose closest companion is an injured wild duck. (See my mind at work? Bird. Hedwig. Bird. Hedwig. Ahah!) Speaking of which, I'm going to see "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" tonight, so if there is anything that can be remotely tied to this question, I'll let y'all know in a future post. Yours 'til Niagara falls, Mundungus From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Sat Aug 11 05:20:00 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 05:20:00 -0000 Subject: Spies and traitors, Message-ID: <9l2fa0+qvm1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24007 Monika wrote: There's a still, or possibly just a publicity shot, that I'm >wondering about. Anyone want to take a guess at what this scene is? God, that's bothering: You can't see the background very well, looks like the columns of some cloister. And is there anybodt on this list who actually likes those broomsticks? Just look at the handles! They should be straight and polished, not look like some branch you've just ripped off a tree. Amber wrote: Message-ID: <9l2h3a+ll68@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24008 Hi! Hedwig was a saint. Here is a website with a bit of history: http://users.erols.com/saintpat/ss/1016.htm#hedw The interesting thing to note, I thought, was the following: "Towards the end of her life she had the gift of working cures and making predictions. Several miracles are recorded of her--she fell asleep, it was said, one night while reading the Bible by candlelight; the book caught fire and burned, but was undamaged. A blind man's sight was restored because of her blessing." Sounds like a witch to me! It also says she was a founder of hospitals for incurable diseases. Perhaps she was the founder of "St.Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries", too...that might have gotten her into Harry textbook. :) Cheers! -Cornflower O'Shea From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sat Aug 11 06:03:03 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 06:03:03 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's House In-Reply-To: <008501c121df$705c3800$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> Message-ID: <9l2hqn+5etf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24009 Hi! You wrote: Also, considering the amount of time that students seem to spend with people in their own houses, it seems likely that both Pettigrew and Sirius were in Gryffindor. Would James really have the opportunity to form such a close bond with two people he didn't share a common room or a Quidditch team with? I don't think so... ...but Percy girlfriend is in Ravenclaw, and Cho(Ravenclaw) was certainly attached to Cedric (Hufflepuff), so it's not unheard of. Besides they do take classes together. Personally, I would like to think Pettigrew was in Gryfindor, just to show that J.K. isn't totally biased towards them, but I don't want to assume it, and he doesn't really seem to fit the profile... -Cornflower O'Shea From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 06:33:05 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany Romans) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 23:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spies and traitors, In-Reply-To: <9l2fa0+qvm1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010811063305.98950.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24010 Susanna wrote: > IMO, in times like the last year of V.'s reign, you > find it difficult > to trust anybody, even your husband or wife or, as > in the > James/Sirius case, one of your best friends. As > Sirius says in GoF, > everybody was suspecting everybody and after all it > was clear that > one of the Potters' friends had to be the spy. > Unfortunately, Snape > (if it was really him to provide that bit of > information) didn't know > the spy's identity, otherwise things would have gone > in a different > way. > There is that things that keeps bothering me, > though, let's see if I > can put it into words and it still makes sense: 1) > There is a limited > number of Death Eaters 2) Not every DE knows every > other DE's > identity 3) Snape was a DE and mole for Dumbledore > (this begins to > sound like one of the logical puzzles). > Peter Pettigrew has the Dark Mark on his forearm and > I think (but > that could be the hole in the theory) he had to > receive it before > Voldemorts downfall, for the simple reason that > afterwards V. had > neither the strength nor the physical means to mark > him. Now, if > Pettigrew had been a simple spy, seeing Voldemort > now and then in > private to give him some information about the > enemy, it would be > credible that Snape knew there had to be a spy, but > couldn't very > well go to V., saying "Hey, Voldie old boy, tell me > who is this spy > who provides such a lot of useful information about > Dumbledore's > group?" But it seems that Pettigrew was a DE, he and > Snape had both > been at Hogwarts, maybe even in the same year, Snape > had spied on the > Marauders, and it strikes me as impossible that > Snape shouldn't have > recognized him, even if he was hooded and masked: > Pettigrew isn't > much taller than a child and has that squeaky voice- > how is it > possible Snape couldn't identify him? > Or maybe he did? And couldn't tell Dumbledore in > time? Or didn't tell > Dumbldore on purpose, playing a very dirty and > highly dangerous > revenge- game with the Marauders, bringing them to > distrust one > another? > Comments and clarifications VERY welcome! You make very good comments. I have a few to add: just because Peter was a DE, doesn't mean he had to attend all their "meetings" for lack of a better term. Since he was supplying Voldie with insider info, and since Voldemort may have realized that one of his Death Eaters was supplying Dumbledore with information I think it logical to assume he would want to keep Peter as an ace in the hole so to speak. Besides, Pettigrew isn't really the bravest or most reliable chap in the world despite being apparently sorted into Gryffindor and probably wouldn't want his true loyalty known. I doubt if he even knows/knew his true loyalty, since as Sirius said, he always wanted to be with the "biggest bully in the playgound" so whoever won would be where his *loyalty* would lie. I think Voldemort knew that there was a good chance that Peter would balk at the possibility of having his identity uncovered and having to face Dumbledore without LV's protection so he either kept Peter out of site, or only his inner circle of supporters knew. And as for Snape, if he was the one to provide the tip, I think he honestly didn't know who the mole was. Being the kind of vengeful guy he is, he would have liked nothing more than to expose one of the Marauders as a spy. Not to mention he could have repayed his grudging debt to James for saving his life. Besides the Snape we all know and loathe cannot stand incompetence, and it seems that Peter was nothing if not incompetent; all the more reason for him to hand him over. Oh, and I totally agree about the brooms! Maybe Warner Bros. should have spent a li'l more money on at least *sanding* the handles first. Better yet, they could use the money devoted to threatening 15 year olds to make halfway decent broom handles. (I think poor Harry and Ron would even rank WB lower than Hermione when she squealed to McGonagall about the Firebolt!) Sorry this turned out to be quite lengthy...hopefully I made sense... Bethany __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 07:20:05 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany Romans) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew's House In-Reply-To: <9l2hqn+5etf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010811072005.67838.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24011 --- tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com wrote: > Hi! You wrote: > > Also, considering the amount of time that students > seem to spend > with people in their own houses, it seems likely > that both Pettigrew > and Sirius were in Gryffindor. Would James really > have the > opportunity to form such a close bond with two > people he didn't share > a common room or a Quidditch team with? I don't > think so... > > ...but Percy girlfriend is in Ravenclaw, and > Cho(Ravenclaw) was > certainly attached to Cedric (Hufflepuff), so it's > not unheard of. > Besides they do take classes together. Personally, I > would like to > think Pettigrew was in Gryfindor, just to show that > J.K. isn't totally > biased towards them, but I don't want to assume it, > and he doesn't > really seem to fit the profile... > > -Cornflower O'Shea While it's true that Pettigrew doesn't fit the brave and loyal profile of a Gryfindor, neither does Neville. Neville has shown rare moments of courage; standing up to Malfoy and his cronies at the Quidditch match, standing up to the Trio when they were sneaking out of their common room. However, Peter has done a few ballsy if not brave things too; spying for LV, killing the muggles and incriminating Sirius. I'm not saying that Longbottom is another Pettigrew, just that they have a few superficial similarities. Neville however chooses to stand up for what is right where Peter chooses to do what is most beneficial to himself. As it has been said before, how else would he and James, Sirius, and Remus have gotten so close unless they were in the same house? True the houses do have some contact with each other, but not the amount that would have been required to tutor the struggling (Neville again) Peter on how to become an Animagus. Therefore I think it almost certain that he was a Gryfindor. Bethany __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 11 12:40:11 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 12:40:11 -0000 Subject: Who trusted Sirius? In-Reply-To: <9l1aju+o9be@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l393b+4raa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24012 Monika wrote: > Actually, I think it's quite shocking that James and Lily seem to be > the *only* people who trusted Sirius. Everybody else, even those who > knew him really well: Remus, Hagrid, McGonagall - were certain he > betrayed his best friends and slaughtered the muggles. > Still worse, it seems that Dumbledore shared their belief. To their credit, none of these people thought that until after the fact. He was all but caught with the smoking gun in his hand. It's all circumstantial evidence, and of course SB should have had a trial, but it *was* a reasonable supposition that he was guilty all around at that point. In short, I don't think that anyone *believed* SB was the spy before the fact; they just wondered. Someone was passing secrets; everyone involved seemed trustworthy, but clearly someone was not; therefore everyone was under suspicion. We are seeing the story through the corrective lenses of hindsight. To the characters in 1981, Sirius, like Peter, was just one of several completely improbable suspects. Amy Z -------------------------------------------- The clock on Lupin's wall . . . had twelve divisions, ranging from Sound Asleep to Murderous Intent And No Human Conscience. -Amanita Lestrange, "Fool's Paradise" -------------------------------------------- From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Aug 11 13:46:47 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 13:46:47 -0000 Subject: Spies and traitors, In-Reply-To: <9l2fa0+qvm1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l3d07+b6nm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24013 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Peter Pettigrew has the Dark Mark on his forearm> We don't know that PP has the Dark Mark. He never had to be summoned to the Riddles' graves because he was already with Voldemort. It never is said in canon that he also has the Dark Mark. But it seems that Pettigrew was a DE> Once again, I am not so sure that he was a DE. It is logical, given his work for the big V, to assume he is a DE, but somehow, I am not comfortable with putting the two together. PP does not seem to have been worthy enough to V to be a DE; he was simply useful as a spy. Voldemort seems to know what a coward and a traitor he really is. Voldemort made a comment about PP's connection with rats, and I think there are two meanings there: obviously he IS a rat, and he also rats out his friends and has other rat-like qualities. V would toss him aside in a second, whereas he seems to value the DEs more. Now that PP has helped restore V to his body, PP may be valued more and may become a DE now, but I just don't think he was a DE. People have mentioned that PP was V's secret, and I agree with that. PP's name was not mentioned at the trials, whereas Snape's name was, and it was generally believed, certainly by the DEs in Azkaban, that PP had died. It also would have been quite easy for PP to be a spy as a rat and be known only by V, because only his friends from Hogwarts knew he was an Animagus. I doubt the DEs knew that either, because it served V well for no one to know. As long as PP was V's secret weapon, so to speak, it wouldn't have been a good decision to make him a DE and let a larger group of people know which side PP was on. --jenny from ravenclaw***************************** From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 14:34:00 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 14:34:00 -0000 Subject: Lord Voldemort (FILK) Message-ID: <9l3foo+5ehj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24014 My friend and I came up with this one together: Lord Voldemort (To the tune of Macavity from the Broadway play Cats ) Setting: HARRY and RON are seating in the Gryffindor Common Room along with a group of Gryffindors as the CHORUS. HARRY: Lord Voldemort's a scary guy, He's called the Lord of Fear. For he's the only wizard who can destroy the world. He's the baffalment of the Ministry, the wizard's world's despair. For when the reach the Dark Mark, Lord Voldemort's not there. Harry: Lord Voldemort, Lord Voldemort, There's no one like Lord Voldemort. He's broken every wizard law, He breaks the law of gravity. His powers of persuasion would make a wizard stare. For when you reach the Dark Mark, Lord Voldemort's not there. You may seek him in the dungeon You may look up in the air. But I tell you once and once again, Lord Voldemort's not there! RON: Lord Voldemort's a snakey man, He's very, very thin. You would know him if you saw him, For his eyes are blood-shot red. His head is full of evil thoughts, His wand cast evil spells. His clock is musty from neglete, His hair's no longer there. He sways his head from side to side because he is part snake. And when you think he's dead and gone, he's really gaining strength! RON: Lord Voldemort, Lord Voldemort, There's no one like Lord Voldemort. For he's a snake in wizard's form, A monster of depravity. You may see in an alley, Or underneath the stairs, But when the Mark's discovered there, Lord Voldemort's not there. HARRY: He never was respectable. RON: I know, he always cheats at death. HARRY: And his footprints are not found in any Ministry files. RON: And when the bank is looted; HARRY: Or Hogwarts has been rifaled; RON: Or when Bertha's missing; HARRY: Or another muggle's stifaled! RON: Or the wizard world's divided! HARRY: And the damage passed repair! RON AND HARRY: There's the wonder of the thing, Lord Voldemort's not there. RON, HARRY and CHORUS start dancing. ALL TOGETHER: Lord Voldemort, Lord Voldemort, There's no one like Lord Voldemort. There never was a wizard of such deceitfulness and savity. He always has an alibi And one or two to spare. Whatever time the deed to place, Lord Voldemort wasn't there RON AND HARRY: And they say that all the warlocks whose deeds are widely known. HARRY: I might mention Peter "Wormtail". RON: I might mention Lucius Malfoy. HARRY AND RON: Are nothing more than agents for the one who all the time, just controls the operation, THE NAPOLOEN OF CRIME! (More dancing around.) ALL TOGETHER: Lord Voldemort, Lord Voldemort There's no one like Lord Vol-de-mort. He's a snake in wizard's form, A monster of depravity. You may see him in an alley, Or underneath the stairs. But when the Mark's discovered there: Lord Voldemort, Lord Voldemort, Lord Voldemort! Lord Voldemort. RON AND HARRY: When the Mark's discovered there, Lord Voldemort's not there! Fade to black. From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 14:36:46 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 14:36:46 -0000 Subject: Mystery pic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9l3ftu+q9fc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24015 I personally think it is the scene when Harry gets his Nimbus and they are examining it in the common room???? From banjoken at optonline.net Sat Aug 11 16:35:06 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:35:06 -0000 Subject: Spies and traitors, In-Reply-To: <9l3d07+b6nm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l3mrq+f3v6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24016 > We don't know that PP has the Dark Mark. He never had to be >summoned to the Riddles' graves because he was already with >Voldemort. It never is said in canon that he also has the Dark >Mark. Sorry to say this, but we do know. In GoF, just after Voldemort is revived, he pulls back Pettigrew's sleeve to see the dark mark burning very brightly on his skin. As for being a DE, I think he must be. I don't think Voldemort has any followers/servants that aren't. Ken From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 17:23:25 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:23:25 -0000 Subject: Spies and traitors, In-Reply-To: <9l3mrq+f3v6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l3pmd+30ll@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24017 > Sorry to say this, but we do know. In GoF, just after Voldemort is > revived, he pulls back Pettigrew's sleeve to see the dark mark > burning very brightly on his skin. As for being a DE, I think he > must be. I don't think Voldemort has any followers/servants that > aren't. So where was the Dark Mark when Pettigrew was Scabbers? Under his fur? A distinctive bit of dark fur? From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Sat Aug 11 18:20:00 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 18:20:00 -0000 Subject: Spies and traitors, In-Reply-To: <9l3pmd+30ll@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l3t0g+u7u3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24018 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mgrantwich at y... wrote: > > So where was the Dark Mark when Pettigrew was Scabbers? Under his > fur? A distinctive bit of dark fur? Probably too small to notice; a small patch on the small front paw of a small grey rat... I guess maybe it isn't visible when it doesn't burn, or someone would have noticed it on people's arms, wouldn't they? Is it some kind of a tattoo, you suppose? Bente From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sat Aug 11 20:00:47 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:00:47 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's House In-Reply-To: <20010811072005.67838.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9l42tf+j650@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24019 Hi Bethany! You wrote: "However, Peter has done a few ballsy if not brave things too; spying for LV, killing the muggles and incriminating Sirius." But is it really brave or ballsy when the alternative is the Cruciatus curse? "...Peter chooses to do what is most beneficial to himself." Isn't this the epitome of the Slytherin soul? Actually, I'm just be arguementative for the sake of it. I don't really care. My original question was merely to find out if Peter's house had ever been actually mentioned, and it appears not to have been. Perhaps we will find out in another book. Perhaps it really doesn't matter one wit. -Cornflower O'Shea ps. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com Sat Aug 11 20:22:24 2001 From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:22:24 -0000 Subject: How old is Madam Hooch? Message-ID: <9l4460+og7e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24020 I was reading over PoA yesterday (of course, the book's at home, and I'm not) and noticed something in the chapter where Harry finally gets his Firebolt back and everyone is trying to get a look at it. When Madam Hooch is looking at the broom, she mentions that she learned to fly on a Silver Arrow broom. Well, Silver Arrows were one of the last generation of artisan racing brooms, first made sometime between 1901 and 1926. Does that mean that Madam Hooch also dates to sometime between 1901 and 1926? Meril who really, really needs to stop thinking about dates From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Aug 11 20:22:44 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:22:44 -0000 Subject: Let Me This Task Get Through (filk) Message-ID: <9l446l+fl41@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24021 Let Me This Task Get Through (from GoF, Chap. 20) (To the tune of That's All I Ask of You, from The Phantom of the Opera) Dedicated to Steve Vander Ark THE SCENE: A small tent outside an enclosure where the first Triwizards task is about to take place. The four champions await with fear and trembling. FLEUR The first task is dragons Just see our wide-eyed fears VICTOR They're here, they'd love to fry us All future life deny us. HARRY Let us work our magic As we shake in our shoes With pure terror beside us, A crowd that could deride us CEDRIC Who cares whether I achieve a trophy Or if with triumph my face is flushed FLEUR Please just tell me that I'll live tomorrow Promise it's not time to say "adieu" ALL Let me this task get through CEDRIC Just give me a pebble To change into a dog HARRY And when I cry Accio Please don't let me get K.O'd VICTOR All I want's survival A world that I'm still in CEDRIC And if you see me pacing It's `cause my heart is racing. VICTOR: Some disaster I'm anticipating HARRY: Some foe roots to see me get subdued FLEUR: My anguish has remained unabating CEDRIC: Please don't let me end up Short-Snout food ALL Oh, please, let me this task get through VICTOR: Hear the crowd as it roars in excitement HARRY: Hear the dragons roar their reptile yell FLEUR: Never till now have I known what sheer fright meant ALL Please do not let us forget our spells Do not let our legs all turn to jell (CEDRIC is summoned by Bagman's announcement to face the Swedish Short-Snout) ALL And most of all let no one ever tell That totally apart today we fell (Exit CEDRIC) - CMC From corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 20:44:11 2001 From: corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:44:11 -0000 Subject: Sears VIP Trip to UK HP Premiere Message-ID: <9l45es+5mqm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24022 Sears is having a drawing to win a VIP trip for four to London for the World Premiere of Harry Potter. .round trip airfare for four .hotel stay for four days for four .tickets for four for the movie premiere If I won something like that, I would simply die of shock! Not to be greedy, but I wonder if one person could go four times ... hee hee ... just kidding! My problem would be who to take with me. Certainly NOT anyone who has poked fun at my HP obsession! Doreen, heading for Sears tomorrow! From cmtorres67 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 21:13:53 2001 From: cmtorres67 at yahoo.com (cmtorres67 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 21:13:53 -0000 Subject: Spies and traitors, In-Reply-To: <9l3t0g+u7u3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l476h+jvb3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24023 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mgrantwich at y... wrote: > > I guess maybe it isn't visible when it doesn't > burn, or someone would have noticed it on people's arms, wouldn't > they? Is it some kind of a tattoo, you suppose? > > Bente I think it's normally a light tatoo, hidden by their robes that turns dark when V touches it and summons the DE. I think when AK rebounded on V and his power was destroyed, the dark marks on the DE faded to almost nothing. Remember Snape and Karkaroff talking about it coming back and D's memory in the pensieve - " It's coming back...Karkaroff's too...stronger and clearer than ever" (GoF p 598 US). From mspond1 at aol.com Sat Aug 11 21:42:58 2001 From: mspond1 at aol.com (mspond1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 21:42:58 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew Message-ID: <9l48t2+1k4u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24024 When Harry let Pettigrew go, didn't Dumbledore say that his father would have done the same thing, and that some day Harry will be very glad that he didn't kill him. Perhaps in another of the books, Pettigrew will save Harry, even though he was ready, willing, and almost able to kill him in GoF. From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 22:12:52 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 15:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sears VIP Trip to UK HP Premiere In-Reply-To: <9l45es+5mqm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010811221252.43826.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24025 --- Doreen Rich wrote: > Sears is having a drawing to win a VIP trip for four > to London for > the World Premiere of Harry Potter. > > .round trip airfare for four > .hotel stay for four days for four > .tickets for four for the movie premiere > > If I won something like that, I would simply die of > shock! > > Not to be greedy, but I wonder if one person could > go four times ... > hee hee ... just kidding! My problem would be who to > take with me. > Certainly NOT anyone who has poked fun at my HP > obsession! > > Doreen, heading for Sears tomorrow! > > > I'll go with you Doreen. :D Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 22:47:09 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:47:09 -0000 Subject: Spies and traitors, In-Reply-To: <9l2fa0+qvm1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l4cld+6roj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24026 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > ... and it strikes me as impossible that Snape shouldn't have > recognized him, even if he was hooded and masked: Pettigrew isn't > much taller than a child and has that squeaky voice- how is it > possible Snape couldn't identify him? > Susanna I don't know. Voldemort doesn't strike me as the sort of person that would allow a whole lot of discussion in meetings, and Peter isn't the sort of person who likes to call attention to himself. So it is certainly possible that Peter and Snape were in DE meetings together without Peter saying a word. Marcus From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 11 22:53:25 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:53:25 -0000 Subject: How old is Madam Hooch? In-Reply-To: <9l4460+og7e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l4d15+qn9e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24027 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lady.nymphaea at f... wrote: > Madam Hooch (snip)learned to fly on a Silver Arrow broom. Well, > Silver Arrows were (snip) made sometime between 1901 and 1926. > Does that mean that Madam Hooch also dates to > sometime between 1901 and 1926? Why not? In the Tom Riddle flashback, Dumbledore's hair was still auburn, and we know he was 100 at that time (because JKR told us in chat that he is 150 'now' and the flashback was 50 years ago). JKR told us in chat that McGonagall is 'a spritely 70' and her hair is still black (unless she dyes it...) While Hooch has gray hair: SS says: "Their teacher, Madam Hooch, arrived. She had short, gray hair, and yellow eyes like a hawk." I like for McGonagall and Hooch to be the same age, so either Hooch grayed younger or McGonagall IS dying her hair. I like for McGonagall to have been born in 1926 like Tom Riddle and therefore been one of Tom and Hagrid's classmates. However, Hooch was born in 1926 and the Silver Arrow was no longer made after 1926, it would have been an old used broom when she learned on it. From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 23:05:15 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:05:15 -0000 Subject: Time Of Trelawney's First Message-ID: <9l4dnb+3ghq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24028 Many people speculate that Trelawney's first true prediction had something to do with the Potters and it was that prediction that made Voldemort try to kill them. According to the Lexicon's timeline, the year of the attack was Charlie Weasley's fourth at Hogwarts. We might assume that Bill was there too. So, do you think we might learn from one of the two older Weasley's what her prediction was? Or maybe they had something to do with it? Marcus From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sat Aug 11 23:49:21 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:49:21 -0000 Subject: Spies and traitors, In-Reply-To: <9l476h+jvb3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l4ga1+103eo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24029 MGrantwich wrote: > I guess maybe it isn't visible when it doesn't > > burn, or someone would have noticed it on people's arms, wouldn't > > they? Is it some kind of a tattoo, you suppose? > > Bente Replied: > I think it's normally a light tatoo, hidden by their robes that turns > dark when V touches it and summons the DE. > I think when AK rebounded on V and his power was destroyed, the dark > marks on the DE faded to almost nothing. Remember Snape and Karkaroff talking about it coming back and D's memory in the pensieve It's coming back...Karkaroff's too...stronger and clearer than ever" (GoF p. 598 US). ************** Hi! Actually I got the impression that the dark mark disappears totally unless the D.E. are being summomed, as Voldemort says, "It's back,...they will all have noticed it..." (G of F p.560) It would be quite easy for the ministry to find Death Eaters if all they had to do was pull up a suspects robes. I think they can feel it start to burn before it appears (hence Karkaroff's apprehension). However, I don't think it becomes visible unless Voldie wants it to, unlike Harry's scar, which is strangly connected to the dark marks (remember how Harry's scar burned strongly as Voldie turned Peter's black?), but not in V's control. -Cornflower O'Shea From mervin180 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 23:56:37 2001 From: mervin180 at yahoo.com (Angela Pelnar) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: First Impression of Hogwarts (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat Stool/School Song) In-Reply-To: <20010804065640.76804.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010811235637.11511.qmail@web14913.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24030 --- Nethilia De Lobo wrote: > Also, that first year everone sings the school song. > Why Never again? Did Dumbledore think about the > awful > cacophony of all those people signing in whatever > tune > and tone they wanted and decided this was a bad > idea? > (I doubt this, he clapped hard after the song.) But > still... > Like many events in the Potterverse, the school song may still be sung every year, as part of tradition, but just not mentioned in the novels. I think the importance of the school song in PS/SS lies in the tone it creates, rather than the elements it provides to the plot. The sorting ceremony/opening feast in PS/SS is (assuming the books are read chronologicaly) the readers' very first glimpse of life at Hogwarts. My first impression of Hogwarts was one of charm, mystery, and fun. The addition of a silly school song sung however you liked simply added to the charming atmosphere created in this scene. What was every one else's first impression of Hogwarts like? ***Angie*** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From mervin180 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 00:14:16 2001 From: mervin180 at yahoo.com (Angela Pelnar) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <9kkmeu+m5gh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010812001416.85367.qmail@web14909.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24031 --- usergoogol at yahoo.com wrote: > On an NPR call in show, J.K. Rowling said to a > caller that one of Harry's peers would become a > teacher, and it wasn't Hermione. The caller then > asked if it was the third of the triumvrate (Ron) > and the abswer was no. So, which one will become a > teacher? > Not all of Harry's peers are in the same year as him. I think in book 5 we'll see Percy struggle with whether he should align himself with the MoM, or with Dumbledore. By the end of GoF, I was becoming quite agitated with the MoM, especially Fudge. Personally, I would like to see Percy quit his job with the MoM and become a teacher. Even though he'd probably be fairly unpopular with the students, he is intelligent, organized, talented, and fond of rules, and would probably be a good professor. ***Angie*** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 00:47:43 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 00:47:43 -0000 Subject: First Impression of Hogwarts (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat Stool/School Song) In-Reply-To: <20010811235637.11511.qmail@web14913.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9l4jnf+7ua2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24032 > What was every one else's first impression of Hogwarts > like? > > ***Angie*** > > __________________________________________________ Hi Angie! I really love the first book, particularly because Rowlings does such a fabulous job of creating a strong bond of empathy and compassion for Harry. We SO want his life at Hogwarts to be wonderful (anything but Privet drive!), so I'd say that my impressions simply followed Harry's...wonder, dread, wonder, dread, anxiety, joy, satiation, laughter! I love the way she sets up a sense of anxiety and then breaks it with humour (I'm thinking in particular of the ghosts whooshing over the waiting students' heads, and then being anything but scary...) Actually, I have to say that the first banquet scene is really one of my favourites in all the books. I have an unusual fondness for the Sorting Hat (Hufflepuff! Gryfindor!), and for Dumbledore (Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!). -Cornflower O'Shea ps. Good question! Thanks for asking! :) From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 01:07:38 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:07:38 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <20010812001416.85367.qmail@web14909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9l4ksq+hblq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24033 > --- usergoogol at y... wrote: > > On an NPR call in show, J.K. Rowling said to a > > caller that one of Harry's peers would become a > > teacher, and it wasn't Hermione. The caller then > > asked if it was the third of the triumvrate (Ron) > > and the abswer was no. So, which one will become a > > teacher? Hello! My suspicion is Krum. (Can he be considered a 'Peer'?). He is eighteen, so he's finished school, and he often mentioned how much he liked Hogwarts as oppossed to Durmstrang. The main reason I think it, though, is that Rowlings seems to really enjoy the idea of Ron having these strong feelings towards Hermione that he can't quite deal with. The whole three way relationship thing was never dealt with very satisfactorily. I'm sure we will see more 'coming of age' type stuff in the next book. The question is, what would he teach? Of course my mind leapt to "Dark Arts", and it was mentioned that Durmstrang students are well-versed in the Dark Arts. But then I remembered that Krum couldn't fight the Imperius curse in the maze (and Harry could) so that might not make him the best candidate for that job. Perhaps Quidditch coach? Flying? (But what about Hooch?). I'd like to see them study Apparating. They've got that test coming up, right? Any other suggestions? -Cornflower O'Shea "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 12 02:39:01 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 21:39:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Of Trelawney's First References: <9l4dnb+3ghq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B75EC44.9D0C14CB@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24034 prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > Many people speculate that Trelawney's first true prediction had > something to do with the Potters and it was that prediction that made > Voldemort try to kill them. I've tried to articulate this before; it's hard when I have trouble with it sometimes. But if her first prediction had something to do with the Potter child being V's ultimate downfall, then we would not yet know that it was a true prediction. He hasn't done it yet. It is identified as a true prediction by Dumbledore, so it must have come to pass. It can't be anything that hasn't happened yet. Perhaps, like other prophecies, it was sufficiently vaguely worded that it said the Potter child would defeat him, or something, which he *did,* but it gets confusing. See? --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 12 02:41:06 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 21:41:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mystery pic References: <9l3ftu+q9fc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B75ECC1.2433DA57@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24035 Meg Rose wrote: > I personally think it is the scene when Harry gets his Nimbus and they > are examining it in the common room???? No, in all the trailer stills, they have on robes--in class, at breakfast when the broom is delivered, etc. The only time they are dressed like they are in the Mystery Pic is in the sequence where Hermione Petrifies Neville and they sneak out. I'm betting it's the flying keys room, and it's a generic broom. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 02:39:13 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:39:13 -0400 Subject: The New Movie Message-ID: <20010811.224207.-333539.3.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24036 the stills of the new movie look pretty impressive, BUT NONE OF THE KIDS IN SCHOOL ARE WEARING ROBES! They're in stupid uniforms! Why aren't they in wizarding robes? Weird! From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 02:40:26 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:40:26 -0400 Subject: can anyone direct me to a fanfic? Message-ID: <20010811.224207.-333539.4.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24037 can anyone direct me to a fanfic which is POST Goblet of Fire? I want to be able to dream an imaginary story of what happened at the Dursleys and in year 5. Any links? You can email me them directly to me if u want. From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 02:37:59 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:37:59 -0400 Subject: Why did Sirius stay there so long? Message-ID: <20010811.224207.-333539.2.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24038 I reread all of GoF today, but because it was the Jewish Sabbath I couldn't write down any of my very burning questions and I forgot all of them! It was really fun to reread it now that I know that Moody is really Barty Crouch Jr.; now I understood for example why he hated Karkaroff so much, and why he disliked Snape, etc.; not becaue he was an Auror, just b/c he hates a Death Eater who walked free! The way he knew that Longbottom was attached to the Cruciatus Curse and that Harry survived Avada Kedavra -- all of it was clear now that I knew who he REALLY was. However, I am still amazed that he managed to keep his wits about him, after 10 or so y ears of living under the Imperius Curse. But, I have one question about PoA. If Sirius was able to sneak out of Azkaban disguised as a dog, why on earth did he wait thirteen years??? he could've snuck out after 5 years and fled somehwere else. Or he could've gone to some distant post office & written a letter to Crouch or s/one else, explainng his innocence (since he never got a trial). Or whatever. Why did he wait such a looooong time -- i Know the answer is that he finally found out where Peter was hiding, but still, he could've left Azkaban as a dog a lot earlier than he did. Also, if he disappeared at the end of PoA, and he was 'at large' again, why did the MoM let their guard down and let Harry go home, and remove the Dementors? A very dangerous criminal is still at large! And they're just leaving all their precautions behind. I dont' understand it. Anotehr question. What is the difference between being an Animagi and undergoing an animal Transfiguration, like the amazing bouncing ferret Malfo or Krum the Shark? I don't see the difference. Thanks. From klhurt at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 02:59:03 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Sirius stay there so long? In-Reply-To: <20010811.224207.-333539.2.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010812025903.71466.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24039 --- "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: >Anotehr question. What is the >difference between being an Animagi >and undergoing an animal >Transfiguration, like the amazing >bouncing ferret Malfo or Krum the >Shark? I don't see the difference. Transfiguration: a spell used with a wand; can be used on self or others. Animagus: changes self at will by thinking it Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From claudiaayaz at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 02:59:44 2001 From: claudiaayaz at yahoo.com (saraavi ranch) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Sirius stay there so long? In-Reply-To: <20010811.224207.-333539.2.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010812025944.1574.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24040 i think i can answer your last question: an aminagi is someone who can at will turn into an animal of his/her choice and it'll always be the same animal. malfoy was being transfigured by someone else, so he's definitely not an animagus, since that was not his own choice... oh yeah, i know what you mean by not being able to write down any of your burning questions on shabbes... are you able to use a phone on sabbath? in that case, if it happens again you're welcome to phone me, email me privately then. :-) claudia --- "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > I reread all of GoF today, but because it was the > Jewish Sabbath I > couldn't write down any of my very burning questions > and I forgot all of > them! It was really fun to reread it now that I know > that Moody is really > Barty Crouch Jr.; now I understood for example why > he hated Karkaroff so > much, and why he disliked Snape, etc.; not becaue he > was an Auror, just > b/c he hates a Death Eater who walked free! The way > he knew that > Longbottom was attached to the Cruciatus Curse and > that Harry survived > Avada Kedavra -- all of it was clear now that I knew > who he REALLY was. > However, I am still amazed that he managed to keep > his wits about him, > after 10 or so y ears of living under the Imperius > Curse. > > But, I have one question about PoA. If Sirius was > able to sneak out of > Azkaban disguised as a dog, why on earth did he wait > thirteen years??? he > could've snuck out after 5 years and fled somehwere > else. Or he could've > gone to some distant post office & written a letter > to Crouch or s/one > else, explainng his innocence (since he never got a > trial). Or whatever. > Why did he wait such a looooong time -- i Know the > answer is that he > finally found out where Peter was hiding, but still, > he could've left > Azkaban as a dog a lot earlier than he did. > > Also, if he disappeared at the end of PoA, and he > was 'at large' again, > why did the MoM let their guard down and let Harry > go home, and remove > the Dementors? A very dangerous criminal is still at > large! And they're > just leaving all their precautions behind. I dont' > understand it. > > Anotehr question. What is the difference between > being an Animagi and > undergoing an animal Transfiguration, like the > amazing bouncing ferret > Malfo or Krum the Shark? I don't see the difference. > > > Thanks. > ===== i don't suffer from potterholism, i enjoy every minute of it everything will be alright in the end. if it isn't then it's not the end! smile! :-) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 02:57:11 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:57:11 -0400 Subject: How old is Hagrid Message-ID: <20010811.225903.-254007.1.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24041 I am a bit confused with the timeline -- how old is Hagrid? According to CoS, he's about Voldemort's age -- weren't he and Tom Riddle in school together? So how old is Voldemort? Pettigrew is James Potter's age, so Voldemort must be a lot older than Pettigrew. Also, if Hagrid was expelled in his third year, he must hardly know any magic -- no curses, no charms, etc., that were taught in the 4th year and above. So Harry knows more magic than Hagrid by now -- Draco too, so Draco can really do Hagrid in if he wants to, and Hagrid won't know the countercurrses yet.... Hagrid 'fell' for Olympe Maxime, right? Why didn't this poor old guy have a love life when he was younger? He nevr married (then again, none of the teachers did -- Snape sleeps in the castle, and so do McGonagall and the rest...) and suddenly at this age he finds himself a girlfriend? Oh, btw, somone onced asked what is the gender of Professor Sinistra. I caught her dancing with Moody, so obviously she's female. From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 03:28:55 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:28:55 -0400 Subject: Question about Werewolves Message-ID: <20010811.233501.-254007.9.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24042 I am not very very familiar with all the magical creatures and misfits. So can someone please explain to me how one becomes a werewolf? And how come there is no cure for werewolfs? If werewolves only become wolves once a month, and are normal and even nice ppl like Lupin was for th rest of the month, why don't 'we' know of any other werewolves besides Lupin? From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 03:47:30 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:47:30 -0000 Subject: The New Movie In-Reply-To: <20010811.224207.-333539.3.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9l4u8i+k088@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24043 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > the stills of the new movie look pretty impressive, BUT NONE OF THE KIDS > IN SCHOOL ARE WEARING ROBES! They're in stupid uniforms! Why aren't they > in wizarding robes? Weird! Hi! Don't worry. If you check out the trailer you can see that yes, they are indeed wearing robes. They look kind of like choir or judges robes. I heard Rowlings herself was consulted on many design aspects, so hopefully they won't make too many heinous errors. Let's keep our fingers crossed. http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/play.jsp?id=trailer 2&media=real&speed=56 By the way, does anyone else think Ron is too short in the trailers? (I know, I'm a nit picker!) -Cornflower O'Shea "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 12 03:55:41 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:55:41 -0700 Subject: Prediction - Robes - fanfic - Sirius - Hagrid - Lupin Message-ID: <3B75FE3D.9325A0BD@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24044 Amanda wrote: > [The mysterious previous Trelawney prediction] is > identified as a true prediction by Dumbledore, so > it must have come to pass. No. Dumbledore could have called it true just because he BELIEVES that it will come to pass. Mindy wrote: > BUT NONE OF THE KIDS IN SCHOOL ARE WEARING ROBES! > They're in stupid uniforms! Why aren't they in wizarding robes? Because stupid Muggle WB is more interested in making look like a traditional British boarding school story than in making it look accurate. IIRC, another error is that they have McGonagall wearing black robes when Harry is Sorted and the book says she is wearing emerald green. > can anyone direct me to a fanfic which is POST Goblet of Fire? go to schnoogle.com and go to Barb's table of contents and read Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent. then go to Cassandra Claire's table of contents and read Draco Dormiens. > I reread all of GoF today, but because it was the > Jewish Sabbath I couldn't write down any of my > very burning questions I hope this doesn't sound rude, but shouldn't a person too observant to write on Shabbes also be too observant to read for entertainment instead of reading Bible study, Jewish history, or something of that kind? > If Sirius was able to sneak out of Azkaban disguised > as a dog, why on earth did he wait thirteen years??? Besides the Dementors having made him feel so hopeless (one of the symptoms of major depression is a strong belief that nothing will work anyway) that he didn't bother to try until motivated by his concern for Harry's safety, maybe he wasn't skinny enough to slip out between the bars until then. > I am a bit confused with the timeline -- how old > is Hagrid? According to CoS, he's about Voldemort's age > -- weren't he and Tom Riddle in school together? So how > old is Voldemort? Pettigrew is James Potter's age, so > Voldemort must be a lot older than Pettigrew. 66 in CoS (the fall 92 - spring 93 school year). Yes. > So Harry knows more magic than Hagrid by now -- Draco too, Maybe not. Maybe Hagrid has been illicitly learning his magic from his friends among the students and from library books ever since he got expelled. > Why didn't this poor old guy have a love life > when he was younger? He nevr married (then again, > none of the teachers did -- Apparently Hagrid was never romantically or sexually attracted to females one-third his height and less (I, for example, am barely over 5 foot, ie one quarter his height). So he fell for the first woman his size that he ever saw. JKR said in a chat that some of the teachers had been married but the family life of teachers is 'classified' (that means she's keeping it secret, at least until it turns up in a future book's plot) > Can someone please explain to me how one becomes a werewolf? By being bitten by a werewolf in wolf form. Lupin states "That's where all of this starts -- with my becoming a werewolf. None of this could have happened if I hadn't been bitten" > And how come there is no cure for werewolfs? Plot device. But it does show that the wizarding folk haven't solved everything even though they have magic. > why don't 'we' know of any other werewolves besides Lupin? 1) The wizarding folk have a huge prejudice against werewolves, so any werewolf would try to keep that condition secret, so it could be that some other character is a werewolf and Harry doesn't know it -- it would have to be a character whom Harry doesn't see all that often, so he wouldn't get curious about the once a month absences. 2) I am under the impression that werewolves are extremely rare in Britain -- maybe four or five on the whole island. I suppose they are more common than that on the Continent -- I like to think that poor little Remus child was bitten in Greece. ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L egendary A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 03:52:26 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:52:26 -0400 Subject: Shabbos Message-ID: <20010811.235851.-254007.12.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24045 Nope, Claudia, on Shabbos, no using any appliances whatsoever, from pens to computers to telephones. I should've bookmarked the pages where my questions cropped up -- maybe next week! From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 03:58:42 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:58:42 -0400 Subject: To TenPinkPiggies: thanks! Message-ID: <20010811.235851.-254007.13.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24046 I just checked out that trailer link you posted -- thanks a bunch! It was great! what a movie!!! Does anyone know of any other links to places where you could see video previews of the new movie? I AM HUNGRY! From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 04:02:54 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:02:54 -0000 Subject: How old is Hagrid In-Reply-To: <20010811.225903.-254007.1.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9l4v5e+dumb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24047 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > I am a bit confused with the timeline -- how old is Hagrid? According to CoS, he's about Voldemort's age -- weren't he and Tom Riddle in school together? So how old is Voldemort? Pettigrew is James Potter's age, so Voldemort must be a lot older than Pettigrew. Cornflower replies: Hagrid was expelled in his third year, i.e. when he was 13. CoS takes place fifty years after that event. Therefore Hagrid is 63 in CoS. > Also, if Hagrid was expelled in his third year, he must hardly know any magic -- no curses, no charms, etc., that were taught in the 4th year and above. So Harry knows more magic than Hagrid by now -- Draco too, so Draco can really do Hagrid in if he wants to, and Hagrid won't know the countercurrses yet.... Cornflower replies: Yes, it seems apparent that Hagrid's magically abilities are limited. He's not legally even allowed to use his wand. It was broken, and he put it together and made it into his pink umbrella, but let's not forget how unpredictable a broken wand can be! (Ron "Slug Breath" Weasley could testify to that one). Hagrid, however, is a favourite of Dumbledore, and we know that Dumbledore protects his own. Besides, even though Draco despises "Mudbloods" he can't just openly start "Avada Kedavra-ing" them all over the place. This is a politically savy guy. He has to save face. > Hagrid 'fell' for Olympe Maxime, right? Why didn't this poor old guy have a love life when he was younger? He nevr married (then again, none of the teachers did -- Snape sleeps in the castle, and so do McGonagall and the rest...) and suddenly at this age he finds himself a girlfriend? Cornflower replies: Hagrid is half giant, and there is an enormous prejudice against giants in the wizarding world. It is no wonder he never found the right woman. Besides, since Dumbledore is something like 160, it appears that wizards age differently than we do. Aside from all that, my own muggle Dad got married at 60, and I heard of a couple in a senior's home who got married when they were both over 100. The man had been cheating on his old wife with his new wife...sneaking down the hall. Love and old age are not incompatible! > > Oh, btw, somone onced asked what is the gender of Professor Sinistra. I caught her dancing with Moody, so obviously she's female. Why "obviously?" :) Cheers, -Cornflower O'Shea "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 12 04:04:31 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:04:31 -0000 Subject: How old is Hagrid In-Reply-To: <20010811.225903.-254007.1.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9l4v8f+i05h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24048 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > I am a bit confused with the timeline -- how old is Hagrid? Hagrid is in his 60s during the time of the books, according to JKR in an interview. Hagrid was born in 1929. Lexicon resource: Hagrid page with full timeline of his life http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hagrid.html According to > CoS, he's about Voldemort's age -- weren't he and Tom Riddle in school > together? So how old is Voldemort? He is in his 60s as well, a few years older than Hagrid. (Sorry, the Lexicon page for him is being written; the person doing it for me hasn't sent me the finished version yet) Pettigrew is James Potter's age, so > Voldemort must be a lot older than Pettigrew. Yes, Pettigrew was born c. 1960. > > Also, if Hagrid was expelled in his third year, he must hardly know any > magic -- no curses, no charms, etc., that were taught in the 4th year and > above. So Harry knows more magic than Hagrid by now -- Draco too, so > Draco can really do Hagrid in if he wants to, and Hagrid won't know the > countercurrses yet.... He would certainly have picked up a lot in the intervening fifty years. According to JKR in an interview, he knows magic but since he never had as much formal training, he's always going to be a bit of a bumbler at it. > > Hagrid 'fell' for Olympe Maxime, right? Why didn't this poor old guy have > a love life when he was younger? He nevr married Someone asked JKR if Hagrid would ever marry and she laughed at the idea, wondering who would want to marry someone who liked to eat stoat sandwiches. That was before GF came out, however, so we shall see... (then again, none of the > teachers did Apparently, some of the staff are married. JKR said this too in an interview. Notice that all the staff doesn't stick around at Christmas in PA...there are only 13 total, with a selection of students, so some do go home, just like students. > Oh, btw, somone onced asked what is the gender of Professor Sinistra. I > caught her dancing with Moody, so obviously she's female. Why do you presume that? I agree that this passage makes it LIKELY, but not for sure. We still don't know Sinistra's gender. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From claudiaayaz at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 04:05:12 2001 From: claudiaayaz at yahoo.com (saraavi ranch) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 21:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shabbos In-Reply-To: <20010811.235851.-254007.12.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010812040512.61370.qmail@web11605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24049 i'm sorry, i know i'm sounding sooooo ignorant. ya know i didn't find out i was a jew till iwas 30! and i still have a load to learn! at least by now i've learned to not use anything 'useful' by friday sunset.... i guess there's hope... :-) claudia --- "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > Nope, Claudia, on Shabbos, no using any appliances > whatsoever, from pens > to computers to telephones. I should've bookmarked > the pages where my > questions cropped up -- maybe next week! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 04:04:35 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 00:04:35 -0400 Subject: In Response to Rita Message-ID: <20010812.000442.-254007.14.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24050 "I hope this doesn't sound rude, but shouldn't a person too observant to write on Shabbes also be too observant to read for entertainment instead of reading Bible study, Jewish history, or something of that kind?" Not breaking a Commandment against writing on Shabbos is one thing, and reading a good book after finishing my Sabbath Prayers and my daily Psalms (tehillim) is not WRONG.... (You don't have to be 'spiritual' to be religious!) that comment about me notwithstanding, thanks anyways for responding to ALL of the burning questions I posted tonight. and your digital drawing of your cat is very cute. MINDY From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 04:09:01 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 00:09:01 -0400 Subject: To Claudia Message-ID: <20010812.000910.-254007.15.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24051 Claudia, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound 'holier than thou' or patronizing, and I also didn't mean to start a 'Mindy's religious affilliations' section of the Harry Potter group, so please don't mind me... Sorry again. From cmtorres67 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 04:11:47 2001 From: cmtorres67 at yahoo.com (cmtorres67 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:11:47 -0000 Subject: Spies and traitors, In-Reply-To: <9l4ga1+103eo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l4vm3+k5k9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24052 > > ************** > Hi! Actually I got the impression that the dark mark disappears > totally unless the D.E. are being summomed, as Voldemort says, "It's > back,...they will all have noticed it..." (G of F p.560) It would be > quite easy for the ministry to find Death Eaters if all they had to do > was pull up a suspects robes. I think they can feel it start to burn > before it appears (hence Karkaroff's apprehension). However, I don't > think it becomes visible unless Voldie wants it to, unlike Harry's > scar, which is strangly connected to the dark marks (remember how > Harry's scar burned strongly as Voldie turned Peter's black?), but not > in V's control. > > -Cornflower O'Shea I understand your point about how easy it might be for the MoM to identify DE if the mark was always visible, and people would then know who they could trust for the most part if all one had to do was look for the mark on a wizard's arm. But then why would Karkaroff come to Snape's class and show him something on his arm if it wsan't the dark mark becoming visible "...Harry...saw Karkaroff pull up the left-hand sleeve of his robe and show Snape something on his inner forearm. 'Well?' said Karkaroff...'Do you see? It's never been this clear, never since - " (GoF p 519 US). And why would it be becoming clearer all year - UNLESS the mark showing for so long was unusual. Maybe, because V's powers had been destroyed and he had been gone for so long, as he was regaining his strength/power the mark started to burn and become visible but under normal circumstances maybe the mark would only burn and become visible for a short time before V called the DE. OK, so it burns and starts to become visible (when V is planning something for his DE to do?), then appears when V touches a DE dark mark, and once they are all together with V all he needs to do is check their arms for the dark mark, then it fades away later on. Celeste From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sun Aug 12 04:17:40 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:17:40 -0000 Subject: Question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: <20010811.233501.-254007.9.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9l5014+5uln@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24053 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > I am not very very familiar with all the magical creatures and misfits. > So can someone please explain to me how one becomes a werewolf? And how > come there is no cure for werewolfs? If werewolves only become wolves > once a month, and are normal and even nice ppl like Lupin was for th rest > of the month, why don't 'we' know of any other werewolves besides Lupin? Becoming a werewolf: It depends on the folk story tradition. According to some accounts, you become a werewolf if you receive a bite from a werewolf. Another is drinking water from the paw print of a wolf (editorial comment: that sounds just yucky!). Another is making a pack with the devil. The most familiar cause is getting bitten by a werewolf. Cure for werewolves: Some folk traditions claim that the plant wolfsbane is a cure. Mistletoe and Deadly Nightshade are also claimed to be cures. Why aren't there more werewolves? There probably IS a werewolf population. But there's also a strong anti-werewolf sentiment in the wizarding community. So these werewolves most likely stay as incognito as possible and probably lock themselves up during full moons. Milz From frantyck at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 04:19:02 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:19:02 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <20010812001416.85367.qmail@web14909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9l503m+ekp1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24054 Angela Pelnar wrote: > --- usergoogol at y... wrote: > > On an NPR call in show, J.K. Rowling said to a > > caller that one of Harry's peers would become a > > teacher, and it wasn't Hermione. The caller then > > asked if it was the third of the triumvrate (Ron) > > and the abswer was no. So, which one will become a > > teacher? Did Rowling say the peer-teacher would appear in book five? My first guess is Neville Longbottom... he has a gift for Herbology and, having been a perpetually disadvantaged student, he knows what it's like to struggle over schoolwork. He also seems the kind of unassuming and patient person parents like to see at the head of classrooms. We know that Transfiguration, Arithmancy and Charms are Hermione's strong suits; Harry's good at Charms and DaDA (plenty of practice); Ron... manages his History of Magic exams creatively (what *is* Ron's favourite class? DaDA with Lupin or Moody, I guess, not that he stood out). Draco must be good at something (Potions, at least!). Lavender Brown and Parvati Patil like Divination. Cedric Diggory used a Bubble- Head Charm for the second task in GoF, so he must have been good at Charms. Any other identifications? Rrishi From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 04:28:51 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:28:51 -0000 Subject: Prediction - Robes - fanfic - Sirius - Hagrid - Lupin In-Reply-To: <3B75FE3D.9325A0BD@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9l50m3+oca4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24055 Hi Rita the Cat Lady! (So much better than Rita the Beetle Lady!) You wrote: I like to think that poor little Remus child was bitten in Greece. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ I like to think Rome myself, just following the allusion. http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/r/roman.html Cheers, Cornflower O'Shea "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 04:34:40 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:34:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <9l503m+ekp1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24056 Did Rowling say the peer-teacher would appear in book five? My first guess is Neville Longbottom... he has a gift for Herbology and, having been a perpetually disadvantaged student, he knows what it's like to struggle over schoolwork. He also seems the kind of unassuming and patient person parents like to see at the head of classrooms. I don?t know if this has been brought up before, but who says that the student-teacher will in fact be a student-teacher? Maybe the student will at some point become a teacher, not necessarily in book five. I don?t know if it was specified by JKR that the teacher would appear in Book Five, but I see it as more logical that one of Harry?s peers will become a teacher after he/she graduates. I really doubt that parents will appreciate having their children being taught by other students. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Aug 12 04:40:53 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:40:53 -0000 Subject: Time Of Trelawney's First In-Reply-To: <3B75EC44.9D0C14CB@texas.net> Message-ID: <9l51cl+3u4d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24057 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > I've tried to articulate this before; it's hard when I have trouble with it sometimes. But if her first prediction had something to do with the Potter child being V's ultimate downfall, then we would not yet know that it was a true prediction. He hasn't done it yet.> LOL. I get it, Amanda. You have sufficiently (as you always do) articulated your point. Sometimes I think we all need things spelled out for us, like when I said (and I thought I was being so brilliant) that Pettigrew did not have the Dark Mark and I was politely corrected by Ken. Lurking is looking more and more appealing, but I don't know, I just can't keep myself from responding! --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************** From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 04:48:24 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:48:24 -0000 Subject: Mystery pic In-Reply-To: <3B75ECC1.2433DA57@texas.net> Message-ID: <9l51qo+qfj6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24058 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Meg Rose wrote: > > > I personally think it is the scene when Harry gets his Nimbus and they > > are examining it in the common room???? > > No, in all the trailer stills, they have on robes--in class, at > breakfast when the broom is delivered, etc. The only time they are > dressed like they are in the Mystery Pic is in the sequence where > Hermione Petrifies Neville and they sneak out. I'm betting it's the > flying keys room, and it's a generic broom. > > --Amanda > > Cornflower adds: Plus, his red sweater is likely his "Weasley jumper", which would make it post-Chirstmas, therefore post-Nimbus. I'm sure the Nimbus will look impressive. It is described in PS as "sleek and shiny, with a mahogany handle, it had a long tail of neat, staight twigs and Nimbus Two Thousand written in gold near the top"(p.123). It is important to the storyline that the Nimbus be impressive (it pisses Malfoy off that Harry gets one, thus fuelling their animosity), and even an idiot director gets character stuff, right? (Oh, god let us hope so!) -Cornflower O'Shea "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 04:53:36 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:53:36 -0000 Subject: Fan fiction archive Message-ID: <9l524g+dngs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24059 Hi, I know I haven't actually posted at this site for quite sometime but I'm still on the list and all. I am a memeber of virtual hogwarts part of hpgalleries. I am currently hopeing that some of the wonderful fanfic writers at this site would be willing to have thier fics archived at the site. If you are willing to that, please email me ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com. Off list please!. Melanie From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 12 05:02:53 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 05:02:53 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9l52lt+7897@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24060 Okay, I'm stumped. I have listened to every NPR interview with JKR and have yet to find this quote. Can someone tell me exactly what she said? It doesn't seem logical that someone still in school will become a teacher, and it's pretty clear that she isn't telling us anything about what happens after year 7, so if this is true, it must be an older student who is coming back to Hogwarts to teach after leaving school. But I'd love to see the quote. Can anyone help me out here? Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Aug 12 06:27:35 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:27:35 -0000 Subject: One Spell Ahead (filk) Message-ID: <9l57kn+um87@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24061 One Spell Ahead (To the tune of One Jump Ahead, from Aladdin) Dedicated to Haggridd (THE SCENE: Dreamland. HARRY imagines himself fleeing all of his adversaries en masse, both great and trivial) HARRY Gotta keep one spell ahead of the death squad One charm ahead of their hex I flourish with my quick Quidditch reflex That's everything One wand ahead of the lynch mob One turn ahead in the maze Gotta dodge ol' Voldy's green death haze! VOLDEMORT He's mine! AUNT MARGE So rude! DRACO & DUDLEY Loser! DEMENTOR Soul food! HARRY Cut a little slack, guys SNAPE Rip him open, he's with Black, guys HARRY I can take a hint, gotta face the facts He is after me, you-know ALL WHO!! CRABBE & GOYLE Oh, it's bad, Harry's worse than Longbottom RITA SKEETER He's become a one-boy psycho ward VERNON & PETUNIA Blame his parents, `cause they spoiled him rotten! HARRY Gotta flee to live, gotta plot to flee Now, where could I have put Godric's sword? Nine months away from the Muggles Three months away from my school In either place I'm apt to find misrule One meal ahead of the D-E's One Mark ahead of the Dark Don't think this is no stroll around the park VERNON & PETUNIA Dinner withheld! CRABBE & GOYLE Beat up! SNAPE Expelled! HARRY Let's not be too hasty HUNGARIAN HORNTAIL Still I think he's rather tasty HARRY Gotta fly to live, gotta play to fly Quidditch makes us get along! VOLDEMORT, DURSLEYS & SLYTHERIN WRONG! HARRY: One cloak ahead of detection ALL: Orphan! HARRY: One map ahead of the dots ALL: Victim! HARRY: One broom ahead of the Willow ALL: Dwarfin'! HARRY: Thank God, my head's on its pillow ALL: Nicked him! But don't make no mistake now If I were awake now All I gotta yell is "Fawkes!!!" (Fawkes swoops down to rescue HARRY in the nick of time) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 06:52:35 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 02:52:35 -0400 Subject: One Spell Ahead (FILK) Message-ID: <20010812.025244.-3684263.3.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24063 Not bad at all! But.... what's a filk? (yeah, I am a master ignoramus... forgive me...) From Allyse at my-deja.com Sun Aug 12 06:55:25 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:55:25 -0000 Subject: In Response to Rita In-Reply-To: <20010812.000442.-254007.14.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9l598t+49fq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24064 Rita wondered: > "I hope this doesn't sound rude, but shouldn't a person too observant to > write on Shabbes also be too observant to read for entertainment instead > of reading Bible study, Jewish history, or something of that kind?" And Mindy replied: > Not breaking a Commandment against writing on Shabbos is one thing, and > reading a good book after finishing my Sabbath Prayers and my daily > Psalms (tehillim) is not WRONG.... (You don't have to be 'spiritual' to > be religious!) I will come out of my constant lurkdom to add support to Mindy here. You can be observant and still be "normal." Religious Jews are people too. :) Allyse, who has recognized at least one other name here From JulieW428 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 13:21:07 2001 From: JulieW428 at yahoo.com (Julie) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:21:07 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <9l4ksq+hblq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l5vs3+10ddt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24065 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tenpinkpiggies at h... wrote: > > My suspicion is Krum. ... > Of course my mind leapt to "Dark Arts", and it was mentioned that > Durmstrang students are well-versed in the Dark Arts. But then I > remembered that Krum couldn't fight the Imperius curse in the maze > (and Harry could) so that might not make him the best candidate for > that job. Perhaps Quidditch coach? Flying? (But what about Hooch?). > I'd like to see them study Apparating. They've got that test coming > up, right? Any other suggestions? > I thought he was a good prospect too- as the peer who becomes a teacher- Why would a silly thing like not being good at DADA stop him from being the teacher- hasn't seemed to be a requirement for the job in the past. COUGHCOUGH Julie From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 13:39:41 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:39:41 -0000 Subject: Hooch's age - prediction - Hogwarts impressions - Movie Nimbus Message-ID: <9l60ut+guvf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24067 Catlady wrote: > I like for McGonagall and Hooch to be the same age, so either Hooch > grayed younger or McGonagall IS dying her hair. I like for McGonagall > to have been born in 1926 like Tom Riddle and therefore been one of > Tom and Hagrid's classmates. However, Hooch was born in 1926 and the > Silver Arrow was no longer made after 1926, it would have been an old > used broom when she learned on it. Which makes a lot of sense. Most people learn to drive on a pretty old car, right? Amanda: > [The mysterious previous Trelawney prediction] is > identified as a true prediction by Dumbledore, so > it must have come to pass. Catlady Rita: > No. Dumbledore could have called it true just because he BELIEVES that > it will come to pass. Given Dumbledore's skeptical attitude toward predicting the future (same scene), I don't think so. One would have to be quite credulous to say a prediction was true when it hadn't come to pass yet, and Dumbledore is not. Angie asked: >What was every one else's first impression of Hogwarts like? "I want to go there RIGHT NOW." This is also my second, third, and hundredth impression. If I'd gone to Hogwarts I'd be like Hagrid--I'd never have left. Cornflower O'Shea wrote: >I'm sure the Nimbus will look impressive. It is described in PS as "sleek and shiny, with > a mahogany handle, it had a long tail of neat, staight twigs and > Nimbus Two Thousand written in gold near the top"(p.123). They oughta make you a consultant, Cornflower. We definitely see Harry's Nimbus in the trailer and it is not particularly sleek; the handle is quite branchlike. (See trailer #2, when Hedwig delivers the broom.) (Yes, it's Hedwig, not "6 screech owls." Even a L.O.O.N. like me doesn't care about this detail, though, nor the color of McGonagall's robes.) Amy Z --------------------------------------------- Professor Trelawney kept predicting Harry's death, which he found extremely annoying. -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------- From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Sun Aug 12 14:20:01 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:20:01 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <9l52lt+7897@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l63ah+u951@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24068 I believe it's from an interview with the "Connection" to be found at this url: http://www.theconnection.org/archive/1999/10/1012b.shtml In it she reveals 'exclusively' that a student will become a teacher, I forgot what exactly her quote was, but I remember thinking that she meant Neville. And for the Draco-will-be-redeemed camp, she has some interesting things to say about him that leads me to believe that he will stay a bully. I could be wrong though. It's a long interview and very substantive. -Hella --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Okay, I'm stumped. I have listened to every NPR interview with JKR > and have yet to find this quote. Can someone tell me exactly what she > said? It doesn't seem logical that someone still in school will > become a teacher, and it's pretty clear that she isn't telling us > anything about what happens after year 7, so if this is true, it must > be an older student who is coming back to Hogwarts to teach after > leaving school. But I'd love to see the quote. Can anyone help me out > here? > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From bbennett at joymail.com Sun Aug 12 14:29:47 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:29:47 -0000 Subject: Robes (was Predictions - Robes, etc) In-Reply-To: <3B75FE3D.9325A0BD@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9l63sr+vb2d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24069 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston : > > BUT NONE OF THE KIDS IN SCHOOL ARE WEARING ROBES! > > They're in stupid uniforms! Why aren't they in wizarding robes? > > Because stupid Muggle WB is more interested in making look like a > traditional British boarding school story than in making it look > accurate. The uniform robes are actually what I pictured for Hogwarts. In the books, JKR is never really clear as to what the robes look like. Since it's been said she was consulted regarding the movie, I can't imagine that A: they didn't ask her what the robes looked like (since she isn't specific in the books) and B: she would have neglected to tell them "Hey, you've got the robes wrong!" if they DIDN'T ask. Just my two cents :) Personally, I'm delighted with what I'm seeing in the movie. B From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 15:12:12 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:12:12 -0000 Subject: Delisting for a while Message-ID: <9l66cc+j772@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24070 Just a brief (OT) post to say goodbye for a while. I can't keep up with all the posts. I went to a three day conference a while ago and came back to almost 400 posts just from this group. You people are exhausting! I'll be back when the fifth book comes out (whenever that finally happens). Until then, take care everyone! THanks for the fun. From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Sun Aug 12 15:20:40 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:20:40 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <9l63ah+u951@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l66s8+4no1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24071 This may be a little too obvious, but Fleur Delacour said she was going to try to get a job at Hogwarts, didn't she? To improve her 'Eeenglish'? As someone mentioned, Percy would certainly make a fine professor, and so would Charlie Weasley, if Hagrid's assignment for Dumbledore were to take longer than the rest of the summer. If Voldemort is coming back, Bill Weasley might want to stay in England rather than going back to Egypt, too; he was head boy, so he must have been a good student. If it doesn't happen this year (in book 5) the field opens wider, of course; one or both of the Weasley twins could come back, or (in another year) Cho Chang. Victor Krum is another good choice, and it would make for much fun to see him pursue Hermione while Ron suffers, wouldn't it? Then again, if Fleur comes back, maybe Ron wouldn't suffer.... Bente From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 15:50:01 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:50:01 -0000 Subject: Hooch's age - prediction - Hogwarts impressions - Movie Nimbus In-Reply-To: <9l60ut+guvf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l68j9+4ltp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24072 > Cornflower O'Shea wrote: > > >I'm sure the Nimbus will look impressive. It is described in PS as > "sleek and shiny, with > > a mahogany handle, it had a long tail of neat, staight twigs and > > Nimbus Two Thousand written in gold near the top"(p.123). > > Amy Replied: They oughta make you a consultant, Cornflower. We definitely see Harry's Nimbus in the trailer and it is not particularly sleek; the handle is quite branchlike. (See trailer #2, when Hedwig delivers the broom.) (Yes, it's Hedwig, not "6 screech owls." Even a L.O.O.N.like me doesn't care about this detail, though, nor the color of McGonagall's robes.) Cornflower replies: I think it is still wrapped in paper during that scene. ("DO NOT OPEN THE PARCEL AT THE TABLE." p.122) I agree that any idiot would guess it was a broom, but still, it is not suppposed to be totally identifiable. I don't think we've been given a good glimpse of the Nimbus yet... Cheers, Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* ps. I agree with you on the colour of the robes thing. Black suits McGonagal so well. Now Lockhart in black would be a fatal error, should they ever make CoS! From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Aug 12 16:35:23 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:35:23 -0000 Subject: Super Animagi? Message-ID: <9l6b8b+82rs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24073 I had a thought while reading some of the recent post regaring the difference in Animagi transformations (changing oneself into one, particular animal) and being transformed by another wizard into an animal (Draco's enforced change into the ferret). Do you suppose there exists the possiblity of a higher/more difficult level of Animagus transformation where a person can change themselves into whatever kind of animal they want? In other words, the Super Animagus would have the ability to select whatever animal form would be most useful for the task at hand; today it's a dog, tonight it's a bat, tomorrow it's a fish. I suppose you could use your wand to transform yourself into various types of animals, but, IIRC, I don't think we've seen any evidence of this in canon. I remember seeing the cartoon (Disney?) version of "The Sword in the Stone." There is a scene where Merlin is dueling with a witch, who's name I forget, and they both keep changing their animal forms, the better to attack each other. Merlin wins when he changes into a virus and make the witch sick. Seems to me like a useful skill. Marianne From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 17:00:59 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:00:59 -0000 Subject: Super Animagi? In-Reply-To: <9l6b8b+82rs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l6cob+r07a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24074 Marianne wrote: I suppose you could use your wand to transform yourself into various types of animals, but, IIRC, I don't think we've seen any evidence of this in canon. Cornflower replies: There is something in GoF about the difference between being anamagi and simple transforming oneself (or maybe its in Mag. Creatures???), but it states that if one is transformed, the sense of self is lost, i.e. you become that animal totally. An anamagi is the animal, but also has a human soul and consciousness. I think that, just as the "wand chooses the wizard", the "animal chooses the wizard". What I mean is, it seems that wizards transform into animals they resemble both physically and "spritually". So I think there is one perfect animal for each wizard. Peter is a perfect rat, don't you think? Cheers, Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Sun Aug 12 17:04:33 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:04:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Super Animagi? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24075 In the Fantastic Beasts schoolbook, it said that a transfigured animal, like Draco was in GoF, thinks and acts like that animal, whereas we know from Sirius that an animagus keeps (more or less) his own thought processes, although they may be a little dampened down - and we've seen from Rita that she can at least remember quotes somewhat correctly when she hears things while in bug-form. > -----Original Message----- > From: Zarleycat at aol.com [mailto:Zarleycat at aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 12:35 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Super Animagi? > > > Real-To: Zarleycat at aol.com > > I had a thought while reading some of the recent post regaring the > difference in Animagi transformations (changing oneself into one, > particular animal) and being transformed by another wizard into an > animal (Draco's enforced change into the ferret). > > Do you suppose there exists the possiblity of a higher/more difficult > level of Animagus transformation where a person can change themselves > into whatever kind of animal they want? In other words, the Super > Animagus would have the ability to select whatever animal form would > be most useful for the task at hand; today it's a dog, tonight it's a > bat, tomorrow it's a fish. I suppose you could use your wand to > transform yourself into various types of animals, but, IIRC, I don't > think we've seen any evidence of this in canon. > > I remember seeing the cartoon (Disney?) version of "The Sword in the > Stone." There is a scene where Merlin is dueling with a witch, who's > name I forget, and they both keep changing their animal forms, the > better to attack each other. Merlin wins when he changes into a > virus and make the witch sick. Seems to me like a useful skill. > > > Marianne > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our > netiquette tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20File s/netiquetteTIPS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 12 17:19:42 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:19:42 -0000 Subject: Super Animagi? In-Reply-To: <9l6b8b+82rs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l6drf+pgu9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24076 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > I suppose you could use your wand to > transform yourself into various types of animals, I keep wondering, if one has Transfigured oneself into an animal that doesn't have hands (such as a dog, let alone a dolphin), HOW does one wave one's wand to end the Transfiguration? > I remember seeing the cartoon (Disney?) version of "The Sword in > the Stone." There is a scene where Merlin is dueling with a witch, > who's name I forget, and they both keep changing their animal > forms, the better to attack each other. Merlin wins when he > changes into a virus and make the witch sick. Seems to me like a > useful skill. There are two historic sources for wizard/witch duel of Transformations. One is the first part of the story of Taliesin, which was bound into the same book as the text of the Mabinogion. In this story, Cerridwen is an evil witch who has an ugly son, and Gwion Bach is her Muggle servant. Gwion Bach drinks the Potion of Knowledge that she was brewing for her son, Cerridwen gets furious and wants to kill him, he transforms in order to escape -- IIRC, first into a rabbit, and she transforms into a greyhound to catch him, then into a sparrow and she transforms into a falcon to catch him, eventually into a grain of wheat, and she transforms into a chicken and eats the grain of wheat. Nine months later, she gives birth to a baby boy who remembers not only having been Gwion Bach, but all his previous lives as well. I just now used Ask Jeeves to find a text of this tale to refer you to: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mab/taliesin.htm The other is a Folk Song, sometimes called The Two Magicians, in which a young woman tells an ugly blacksmith that 'never will you have my maidenhead' and transforms into various creatures to flee him, and he transforms to pursue her. I found a version of it at http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfm?stuff=fall99+D+12571684 http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/2magics.html From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 20:01:42 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:01:42 -0400 Subject: Albus, Remus, Rebeus, Severus Message-ID: <20010812.160150.-332901.5.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24077 It seems to me that the 'us' at the end of each of the wizard's name seem to originate from a certain nationality -- I don't know if Greek or Italian or Latin or whatever -- but is there a specific reason to this? From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 12 20:05:45 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:05:45 -0400 Subject: Voldie's Wand? Message-ID: <20010812.160552.-332901.6.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24078 Perhaps this has been addressed in the past, so please forgive me, but I have a question about Voldie's wand. Where did he keep it all these years while in Albania? Where was it when he was Professor Quirrel? How could he hold it if he had no hands, as Albus asked in GoF? Was his body getting 'better' once Pettigrew found him, so he finally had hands? How, by the way, did Wormtail find him? traveled as a rat all summer long til Albania, and found him? Why didn't Wormtail do this YEARS before? Why did he wait until after Sirius was found? I am befuddled. From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 20:16:26 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:16:26 -0000 Subject: "True" Prediction. (Was: Time Of Trelawney's First) In-Reply-To: <3B75EC44.9D0C14CB@texas.net> Message-ID: <9l6o6q+t5l6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24079 > It is identified as a true prediction by Dumbledore, so it must have > come to pass. It can't be anything that hasn't happened yet. > -- Amanda The exact wording is, "That brings her total of real predictions up to two. I should offer her a pay raise...." The second prediction included the words, "The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever he was." That portion had not happened yet. For that matter, it hasn't fully happened by the end of GoF either. The point? The point is that he is calling it a "real" prediction, even though it hadn't fully come to pass yet. Marcus From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk Sun Aug 12 20:44:26 2001 From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:44:26 -0000 Subject: "True" Prediction. (Was: Time Of Trelawney's First) In-Reply-To: <9l6o6q+t5l6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l6prb+fchr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24080 I would suggest that he called it a true prediction because she went into a trance, not necessarily because the stuff she said happened. Keith "How Freudian" Fraser --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > It is identified as a true prediction by Dumbledore, so it must have > > come to pass. It can't be anything that hasn't happened yet. > -- > Amanda > > The exact wording is, "That brings her total of real predictions up > to two. I should offer her a pay raise...." > > The second prediction included the words, "The Dark Lord will rise > again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever he > was." > > That portion had not happened yet. For that matter, it hasn't fully > happened by the end of GoF either. > > The point? The point is that he is calling it a "real" prediction, > even though it hadn't fully come to pass yet. > > Marcus From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 21:11:17 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:11:17 -0000 Subject: "True" Prediction. (Was: Time Of Trelawney's First) In-Reply-To: <9l6prb+fchr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l6rdl+hl2a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24081 > > The exact wording is, "That brings her total of real predictions up > > to two. I should offer her a pay raise...." > > > > The second prediction included the words, "The Dark Lord will rise > > again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever > he > > was." > > > > That portion had not happened yet. For that matter, it hasn't > fully > > happened by the end of GoF either. > > > > The point? The point is that he is calling it a "real" prediction, > > even though it hadn't fully come to pass yet. > > > > Marcus While we're on the subject - is there anyone else who finds Dumbledore's criticising of her abilities odd? She makes several correct predictions in canon - for example, she was predicting Sirius for practically all of Book 3. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 12 21:32:43 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:32:43 -0000 Subject: Albus, Remus, Rebeus, Severus In-Reply-To: <20010812.160150.-332901.5.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9l6slr+ip1r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24082 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > It seems to me that the 'us' at the end of each of the wizard's > name seem to originate from a certain nationality -- I don't know > if Greek or Italian or Latin or whatever -- but is there a specific > reason to this? It's Latin. Like the magic words for most of the Charms are based on Latin. JKR has told interviewers that she just thought it was cute for the wizards to still have Latin as a living language, but I think it has to do with giving people old Latin names used to be a think that snobby people did. From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 22:55:13 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:55:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Super Animagi? In-Reply-To: <9l6b8b+82rs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24083 I remember seeing the cartoon (Disney?) version of "The Sword in the Stone." There is a scene where Merlin is dueling with a witch, who's name I forget, and they both keep changing their animal forms, the better to attack each other. Merlin wins when he changes into a virus and makes the witch sick. Seems to me like a useful skill. It is indeed the Disney version of ?Sword in the Stone? and involves a duel between Merlin and ?Morgana la Fay?. I put this in quotes because in actual Arthurian legends, she was certainly prettier than in Disney. She was also Arthur?s sister and the person that lost Excalibur/Caliburn?s funky healing scabbard, effectively making Arthur mortal. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 00:23:13 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?Windows-1252?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:23:13 -0500 Subject: Student Teacher - Original Quote (was 'Which character will become a teacher?') Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24084 All right, after listening to a RealPlayer hour long interview, I finally found the actual quote on the student-teacher thingy. I think it?s quite clear JKR means that one of Harry?s classmates will become a teacher after graduating, certainly not in book five. She also specifies that it?s not Ron. Anyway, here it is: AUD ? Audience RAD ? Radio Announcer JKR ? Author AUD: Thank you so much for taking our call, I'm actually calling from our classroom, a sixth grade class. JKR: Hi, hi everyone. AUD: Anyway, it's very exciting, we all just love Harry Potter. We're curious, uhm, well, first of all, we can't wait for books four, five, six and seven. But after that we're curious as to whether Harry is going to have a life after Hogwarts or if Harry might be maybe a Hogwarts teacher. JKR: Uhm... Well, because all your kids said hello so nicely in the background, I'm going to give you information I haven't given anyone else and will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But it is not maybe the one you think, hint hint hint. So yes, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts. RAD: Cathleen, want to have a guess as to who it is? AUD: A guess? They say Ron. JKR: No... It's not Ron. See I can't see Ron as a teacher, no way. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 13 00:45:32 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 00:45:32 -0000 Subject: "True" Prediction, incl. Grim In-Reply-To: <9l6rdl+hl2a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l77vd+nmej@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24085 prefectmarcus wrote: > > > The second prediction included the words, "The Dark Lord will > rise > > > again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever > > he > > > was." > > > > > > That portion had not happened yet. For that matter, it hasn't > > fully > > > happened by the end of GoF either. > > > > > > The point? The point is that he is calling it a "real" > prediction, > > > even though it hadn't fully come to pass yet. Maybe he was only referring to the part that had happened. Jonathan wrote: > While we're on the subject - is there anyone else who finds > Dumbledore's criticising of her abilities odd? She makes several > correct predictions in canon - for example, she was predicting Sirius > for practically all of Book 3. Great point. Dumbledore probably doesn't know about that. Only the students do, unless Trelawney's been talking to the other teachers. McGonagall knows about her dire predictions about Harry, and shared them at least with Lupin, but she doesn't know that what Trelawney saw was a Grim. Even Lupin doesn't seem to have been worried--he probably remembers Trelawney predicting death for one of his classmates years before . . . I think it might be cheating anyway for Trelawney to say that this was an accurate prediction. If the shapes in tea leaves are supposed to be symbolic, not literal, then when your godfather is trying to save your life, what shows up should be not an actual image of your godfather, but whatever symbolizes a protector. (On the other hand, it's fair to see the Grim just about any time with Harry because someone *is* always trying to kill him, including that year.) Amy Z From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 13 00:49:36 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 00:49:36 -0000 Subject: Student Teacher - Original Quote (was 'Which character will become a teacher?') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9l7871+rla5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24086 JB transcribed: > JKR: Uhm... Well, because all your kids said hello so nicely in the > background, I'm going to give you information I haven't given anyone else > and will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, > though it's not Harry himself does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But it is > not maybe the one you think, hint hint hint. That seems to mean it isn't Hermione, since she's the obvious choice. Thanks for tracking this down. Was it the Connection interview? Amy From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Mon Aug 13 01:01:36 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:01:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Student Teacher - Original Quote Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24087 >JB transcribed: > > > JKR: Uhm... Well, because all your kids said hello so nicely in the > > background, I'm going to give you information I haven't given > > anyone else and will tell you that one of the characters, one of > > Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself does end up a > > teacher at Hogwarts. But it is not maybe the one you think, hint > > hint hint. One of Harry's classmates seems to also imply a Gryffindor, although I suppose you could take the Ravenclaws, Hufflepuffs, and Slytherins as classmates as well. If it is a Gryffindor, I bet on Sprout dying some gruesome death and Neville taking over Herbology. If it's a person from any house...well, Draco would be my last guess of someone becoming a Professor at Hogwarts. Potions with Malfoy, anyone? ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Updated 8/11/01 "But the girl on the car in the parking lot says: 'Man, you should try to take a shot Can't you see my walls are crumbling...'" - Counting Crows "Round Here" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Hersheycjh at aol.com Mon Aug 13 02:50:47 2001 From: Hersheycjh at aol.com (Hersheycjh at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:50:47 -0000 Subject: Question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: <9l5014+5uln@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l7fa7+g861@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24088 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" > wrote: > > I am not very very familiar with all the magical creatures and > misfits. > > So can someone please explain to me how one becomes a werewolf? And > how > > come there is no cure for werewolfs? If werewolves only become > wolves > > once a month, and are normal and even nice ppl like Lupin was for > th rest > > of the month, why don't 'we' know of any other werewolves besides > Lupin? > > Becoming a werewolf: > It depends on the folk story tradition. According to some accounts, > you become a werewolf if you receive a bite from a werewolf. Another > is drinking water from the paw print of a wolf (editorial comment: > that sounds just yucky!). Another is making a pack with the devil. > The most familiar cause is getting bitten by a werewolf. > > Cure for werewolves: > Some folk traditions claim that the plant wolfsbane is a cure. > Mistletoe and Deadly Nightshade are also claimed to be cures. > > Why aren't there more werewolves? > There probably IS a werewolf population. But there's also a strong > anti-werewolf sentiment in the wizarding community. So these > werewolves most likely stay as incognito as possible and probably > lock themselves up during full moons. > > Milz I have a question about this too. Lupin received a bite when he was young, and there was no cure at that time even though his parents tried everything. He said Wolfsbane was a recent discovery. It does not cure him, but it helps deal w/ the monthly transformation. Now Hagrid was said to be raising werewolf cubs under his bed while he was in school (COS). Where do the cubs come from? CJH From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 03:00:06 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:00:06 -0000 Subject: "True" Prediction, incl. Grim In-Reply-To: <9l77vd+nmej@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l7frm+732d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24089 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > prefectmarcus wrote: > > > > > The second prediction included the words, "The Dark Lord will > > rise > > > > again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than > ever > > > he > > > > was." > > > > > > > > That portion had not happened yet. For that matter, it hasn't > > > fully > > > > happened by the end of GoF either. > > > > > > > > The point? The point is that he is calling it a "real" > > prediction, > > > > even though it hadn't fully come to pass yet. > > Maybe he was only referring to the part that had happened. > Amy Z I think that Trelawney's second prediction has indeed come to pass. Because of the Bone, Flesh and Blood spell, LV is ressurected and can now touch Harry. What will now happen is not relevant to the rising again of Lord Voldemort, truly more terrible than before, which has now transpired. Haggridd From catlady at wicca.net Mon Aug 13 03:27:59 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:27:59 -0700 Subject: Student Teacher - Werewolf Cubs - True Prediction Message-ID: <3B77493F.483EC933@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24090 ~Amber wrote: > If it is a Gryffindor, I bet on Sprout dying > some gruesome death and Neville taking over > Herbology. Why would she have to DIE? Why can't she retire or accept a position as the new, reform-minded Headmistress of Durmstrang or go into business selling the herbs she grows? Those would also create a vacancy for a Herbology teacher. Altho, SO MANY people expect Neville to become the Herbology teacher, I don't know that it would be as big a surprise as JKR hints. CJH wrote: > Now Hagrid was said to be raising werewolf > cubs under his bed while he was in school (COS). > Where do the cubs come from? JKR said in a chat that Tom Riddle was just lying to slander Hagrid and there were no werewolf cubs. Hagridd wrote: > I think that Trelawney's second prediction has > indeed come to pass. Because of the Bone, Flesh >and Blood spell, LV is ressurected and can now > touch Harry. But the point we're arguing over is whether the Prediction had ALREADY come true AT THE TIME that Dumbledore identified it as Trelawney's second true prediction. Dumbledore's statement was near the end of PoA and the BFB event was in GoF, therefore had not happened YET when Dumbledore spoke. SO the FIRST true prediction might not have come true yet by GoF! ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 03:33:55 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (Not Specified) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:33:55 -0000 Subject: Student Teacher - Original Quote In-Reply-To: <9l7871+rla5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l7hr3+svmv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24091 Thanks for tracking this down. Was it the Connection interview? Yes, it was, at the link Hella mentioned. It's in about minute 47 of the interview when a sixth grade teacher calls in. As for the Draco bit Hella mentioned, JKR just talked about Draco about being the classical 'refined' bully. She also said she'd known about three in her life. JB From banjoken at optonline.net Mon Aug 13 03:37:51 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:37:51 -0000 Subject: "True" Prediction. (Was: Time Of Trelawney's First) In-Reply-To: <9l6rdl+hl2a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l7i2f+q42i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24092 > While we're on the subject - is there anyone else who finds > Dumbledore's criticising of her abilities odd? She makes several > correct predictions in canon - for example, she was predicting >Sirius for practically all of Book 3. I think this is just luck on her part. Trelawney's specialty is seeing death omens, so I think it's just a strange coincidence that Sirius is on the loose as a big black dog. Remember that McGonagall said Trelawney had predicted the death of a student every year since she arrived. Ken From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Aug 13 05:19:03 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 05:19:03 -0000 Subject: Tre Real Prediction, Who becomes Teacher Message-ID: <9l7o07+9ac6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24093 Hi, everybody, it seems that our Admins had a well- deserved lie- in yesterday, and I'm not in the least authorized to play their role, being a rather recent member of this group, but I'd like to say this anyway: I don't think it's of interest for anybody on this list to read posts where people are bickering about what to do or not to do on Shabbat. It's not only OT, it's highly private, so please.... OK, now to the topic of this post: May I, with the incredible arrogance of the non-native-speaker, suggest that "Real prediction" might simply mean "not fake"? IMHO, Dumbledore was present when Trelawney made it and he, like Harry, could certainly distinguish a real trance from reading Grims out of tea-leaves. The whole Grim thing, again IMO, is not a prediction come true, it is simply JKR's very weird sense of humour, which I happen to share, and a very lengthy illustration of Hermione's POV concerning Divination. As for Harry's peer who becomes a teacher: The fact that he or she *becomes* a teacher does not necessarily imply that we will see him or her teach! It could simply be that at the end of he book it becomes clear that, let's say Draco ;), will be the new DADA teacher. (Hopefully there won't be too many Voldemort-induced vacancies!) Susanna (who secretly hates Mondays) From katzefan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 06:12:14 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 06:12:14 -0000 Subject: Voldie's Wand? In-Reply-To: <20010812.160552.-332901.6.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9l7r3u+hnu7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24094 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" < mindyatime at j...> wrote: > Perhaps this has been addressed in the past, so please forgive me, but I > have a question about Voldie's wand. Where did he keep it all these years > while in Albania? Where was it when he was Professor Quirrel? How could > he hold it if he had no hands, as Albus asked in GoF? Was his body > getting 'better' once Pettigrew found him, so he finally had hands? How, > by the way, did Wormtail find him? traveled as a rat all summer long til > Albania, and found him? Why didn't Wormtail do this YEARS before? Why did > he wait until after Sirius was found? I am befuddled. The question of why Wormtail waited so long to find V. was raised in PoA, and Sirius or Lupin (can't remember which) point out that Wormtail never did anything unless he was fairly sure of being on the winning side. While V. was so weak, Wormtail would not risk his own neck to go looking for him, but once he knew V. was getting stronger, he figured it was worth the risk (or, conversely, the danger of NOT looking for Voldemort was getting greater). Good question about Voldemort's wand. I'm wondering of Nagini had something to do with this - perhaps she could carry the wand when it needed to be moved, although that wouldn't explain how he was apparently able to use it when he was bodyless. (Actually, I'm not sure he ever did use it then - I think when he kills the old gardener in the beginning of GoF, he has already 'come back' far enough that he's now attained the form in which Harry sees him towards the end of the book - the crouching, childlike figure which on closer examination turns out to be so hideous. And he certainly had hands then; when Wormtail picks him up out of the bundled robes, he puts his arms around Wormtail's neck.) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 13 08:16:58 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 08:16:58 -0000 Subject: True Prediction In-Reply-To: <3B77493F.483EC933@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9l82dq+mf77@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24095 > ~Amber wrote: > > > If it is a Gryffindor, I bet on Sprout dying > > some gruesome death and Neville taking over > > Herbology. Rita wrote: > Why would she have to DIE? Because we're morbid? > Hagridd wrote: > > > I think that Trelawney's second prediction has > > indeed come to pass. Because of the Bone, Flesh > >and Blood spell, LV is ressurected and can now > > touch Harry. > > But the point we're arguing over is whether the Prediction had ALREADY > come true AT THE TIME that Dumbledore identified it as Trelawney's > second true prediction. Dumbledore's statement was near the end of PoA > and the BFB event was in GoF, therefore had not happened YET when > Dumbledore spoke. Well, Jonathan was saying that it hadn't fully happened even at the end of GoF. > SO the FIRST true prediction might not have come true yet by GoF! I still don't get how you can call a prediction true if it hasn't come true yet. By that logic, every prediction is true. Amy Z who predicts that she will win the lottery tomorrow. There, I'm rich! Even though I didn't buy a ticket! (Magic cares not for these petty distinctions) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 13 08:26:31 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 08:26:31 -0000 Subject: Tre Real Prediction In-Reply-To: <9l7o07+9ac6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l82vn+3i39@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24096 Susanna wrote: > May I, with the incredible > arrogance of the non-native-speaker, suggest that "Real prediction" > might simply mean "not fake"? :Sigh: Yet another non-native-speaker whose English is better than most native-speakers'. . . Yes you may. > IMHO, Dumbledore was present when > Trelawney made it I'm intrigued--say more! Amy Z -------------------------------------- "But won't they notice if you shut your ears in the oven door?" "Dobby doubts it, sir." -HP and the Chamber of Secrets -------------------------------------- From djtarb at aol.com Mon Aug 13 12:05:51 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 08:05:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie's Wand? Message-ID: <118.30ee8ca.28a91ca0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24097 In a message dated Mon, 13 Aug 2001 2:13:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, katzefan at yahoo.com writes: > > The question of why Wormtail waited so long to find V. was > raised in PoA, and Sirius or Lupin (can't remember which) point > out that Wormtail never did anything unless he was fairly sure of > being on the winning side. While V. was so weak, Wormtail > would not risk his own neck to go looking for him, but once he > knew V. was getting stronger, he figured it was worth the risk (or, > conversely, the danger of NOT looking for Voldemort was getting > greater). Also, Peter was safe as Scabbers until the end of PoA; once he was revealed it became preferable for him to seek out his old master. > Good question about Voldemort's wand. I'm wondering of Nagini > had something to do with this - perhaps she could carry the > wand when it needed to be moved, although that wouldn't > explain how he was apparently able to use it when he was > bodyless. (Actually, I'm not sure he ever did use it then - I think > when he kills the old gardener in the beginning of GoF, he has > already 'come back' far enough that he's now attained the form in > which Harry sees him towards the end of the book - the > crouching, childlike figure which on closer examination turns out > to be so hideous. And he certainly had hands then; when > Wormtail picks him up out of the bundled robes, he puts his > arms around Wormtail's neck.) > I actually thought that Peter used Voldemort's wand to kill the gardener, as he did Cedric. This could be a complete misapprehension on my part. How that wand travelled with V and came into Peter's possession remains a mystery to me! Diane in PA (who is very glad to have found this list) From KayandJay1 at MSN.com Mon Aug 13 12:07:46 2001 From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com (KayandJay1 at MSN.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:07:46 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <9l63ah+u951@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l8fui+sjqo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24098 I think that Fleur Delacour will be the next DADA teacher. She said that she wanted to be a Hogwarts teacher in GoF. That was her last year as a student so, she could teach. Their is also is Suppose to be a female DADA teacher in the 5th book. I would also think that she would be consited one of Harry's peers. Professor Potter From KayandJay1 at MSN.com Mon Aug 13 12:27:54 2001 From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com (KayandJay1 at MSN.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:27:54 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Message-ID: <9l8h4a+1f3o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24099 Hi! My friend made a HP site. It is really cool You can become a teacher or student. If you want to know the web site name or want to go to it E-mail me or post here. I do not remember the name of the site. I am dased it is 6 in the morning. Professor Potter From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Mon Aug 13 12:31:26 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 08:31:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Student Teacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24100 >From: Rita Winston >~Amber wrote: > > > If it is a Gryffindor, I bet on Sprout dying > > some gruesome death and Neville taking over > > Herbology. > >Why would she have to DIE? Why can't she retire or accept a position as >the new, reform-minded Headmistress of Durmstrang or go into business >selling the herbs she grows? Those would also create a vacancy for a >Herbology teacher. Altho, SO MANY people expect Neville to become the >Herbology teacher, I don't know that it would be as big a surprise as >JKR hints. As Amy Z said, because I'm morbid? Eh, I just expect a lot of people to die in the future books, what with Voldie's Rising. And I can easily see most of the teachers going in defense of the students (assuming that Hogwarts stays open for the next three books). But you're right, she could just retire and live out the rest of her days happily gardening. As for so many people expecting it...well, I guess what matters is what JKR thinks, if she thinks people don't expect it. I believe at this point, Neville is the least-likely Gryffindor to become a Hogwarts Professor. That's just my humble opinion. ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Updated 8/12/01 "But the girl on the car in the parking lot says: 'Man, you should try to take a shot Can't you see my walls are crumbling...'" - Counting Crows "Round Here" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From KayandJay1 at MSN.com Mon Aug 13 12:40:19 2001 From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com (KayandJay1 at MSN.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:40:19 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9l8h4a+1f3o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l8hrj+9qs7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24101 This is the site name = http://nateguy2005.homestead.com/hogwarts~ns4.html If you do sign up send me your answer from the sorting hat and I will get your answer to him because, he put in the wrong E-mail adresses as to give the answer too. Professor Potter http://nateguy2005.homestead.com/hogwarts~ns4.html From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 13:54:28 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 06:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: True Prediction In-Reply-To: <9l82dq+mf77@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010813135428.10930.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24102 > > But the point we're arguing over is whether the > Prediction had > ALREADY > > come true AT THE TIME that Dumbledore identified > it as Trelawney's > > second true prediction. While that may be the discussion, Dumbledore doesn't say that the prediction is TRUE, merely that it is REAL. The majority of her predictions are vague at best, others such as predicting that Harry has a deadly enemy are obvious to everyone else as well. Her specialty seems to be predicting death and seeing the Grim. Someone,I'm sorry I can't remember who and I'm too lazy to look :), said that she had been predicting Sirius all year. There are a few problems with that. 1, Sirius is an Animagus, not the Grim. 2, He doesn't want Harry dead. 3, reading tealeaves is very imprecise relying heavily on individual interpretation as it requires not only trying to determine shapes from the leaves, but also on deciding what significance those shapes have. There is an obvious difference between Trelawney's typical comments "I saw myself abandoning my solitary luncheon..." and the one about The Dark Lord's rise to power.Since she enters a trance and is not in control of what she is saying, I think it is safe to assume that she is making a 'real' prediction. There has also been discussion as to whether or not the comment about offering her a raise was out ofcharacter or not. IMO I think that he was doing it out of his usual good humor. Ofcourse, being the man that he is, he realizes how wonky the field of divination can be and that a "true seer" is rare. Therefore, I think that he considers finding a divination professor who has at least made two real predictions to be somewhat of a very good average, or at least very amusing (as do I). Besides, since Dumbledore seems to find very little surprising that happens, he may be something of a clairevouyant himself. It would explain why he seems to know everything ahead of time (like "the note of amusement" in his voice at Beaky's near execution). Just another of my random, somewhat rambling thoughts. ~Bethany~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Aug 13 13:55:11 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:55:11 -0000 Subject: Tre Real Prediction, Who becomes Teacher In-Reply-To: <9l7o07+9ac6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l8m7v+fg13@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24103 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: "Real prediction" > might simply mean "not fake"? IMHO, Dumbledore was present when > Trelawney made it and he, like Harry, could certainly distinguish a > real trance from reading Grims out of tea-leaves.> Good one! Predicting the Grim is like predicting "You will travel soon," and the next day you get up and go to work. It's very vague and anyone can make a string of predictions like that, fully conscious. > > The whole Grim thing, again IMO, is not a prediction come true, it is simply JKR's very weird sense of humour, which I happen to share, and a very lengthy illustration of Hermione's POV concerning Divination.> You go, girl! I also think it is a hint at how JKR feels about Divination. I am much like Hermione in that I think Trelawney is full of it (I've made that very clear before). The only "prediction" I am inclined to believe *will* happen is the one she made during Harry's final exam in PoA mostly because she went into a trance, had no control over it and didn't even believe she said it. So there! --jenny from ravenclaw************************************ From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Mon Aug 13 14:10:57 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:10:57 -0000 Subject: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <9l8fui+sjqo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l8n5h+5l96@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24104 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., KayandJay1 at M... wrote: > I think that Fleur Delacour will be the next DADA teacher. She said > that she wanted to be a Hogwarts teacher in GoF. That was her last > year as a student so, she could teach. Their is also is Suppose to > be a female DADA teacher in the 5th book. I would also think that > she would be consited one of Harry's peers. > Professor Potter HI! I was the one who had previously guessed Krum, but I'm revoking that vote. The interview clearly says "classmate", so that would rule out Beauxbatons and Durmstrangs, right? So I'm betting on Neville for Herbology, perhaps. However, I always thought that Neville might do something outrageously brave (ie. sacrifice his life)...he has some secret sorrows that run pretty deep, and I think he may be less of a squib than we imagine. Perhaps he is saving up his magic for one important moment? Anyway, my bet is 50:50. It is definately not Draco. J.K. hates him. I don't buy this 'he'll redeem himself stuff'. J.K. taught French Culture, remember? She pulls a lot of her images from WW II and the French resistence movement. It's like asking a member of Hitler Youth to redeem himself...just not right in terms of archetypes, yeah know? Cheers! Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 15:33:16 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:33:16 -0000 Subject: "True" Predictions Message-ID: <9l8rvt+1eor@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24105 I think we are confusing the difference between "Real" and "True". Usually they are synonymous; but strictly speaking in this case, they are not. "Real" refers to the validity. "True" tends to refer to the actual content. Real predictions will likely come true, but they don't have to. Just predictions that come true aren't necessarily real. "The sun will rise tomorrow", is certainly a true predictions, but it really isn't a "Real" prediction, is it? Dumbledore refers to two "Real" predictions by Trelawney. He does NOT use the word "True". I do not have canon in front of me, but if memory serves, within a few paragraphs he is telling Harry that the prediction might not come true. So Dumbledore knows the difference. So I suspect that Voldemort is trying his hardest to make sure that Trelawney's first "Real" prediction doesn't become "True." :) Marcus From joannec at hwy.com.au Mon Aug 13 12:34:00 2001 From: joannec at hwy.com.au (Joanne Collins) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 22:34:00 +1000 Subject: what surprised you the most? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010813223400.008208b0@mail.hwy.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 24106 Weighing in really late on this one *kicks RL* In book order: Philosopher's Stone: Voldemort in Quirrel's head. Chamber Of Secrets: Tom Riddle *is* Voldemort (coming to a theatre near you). Prisoner Of Azkabhan (sp?): The dog is Sirius. Goblet Of Fire: Tie. Moody *is* Crouch Jr was the main one. The other, and *much* more frivolous, is that I managed to really fall in love with the character of Bill Weasley. I hadn't really fallen for any character in the books thus far, and then it just really *hit* me. Oh, here's an adjunct: What's the thing that surprised you *least* in the books? The big one here is that Sirius was innocent. The minute they mentioned him in the wizarding world, finding out that he'd 'emigrated' to the Muggle world as a serial killer, I knew he would be found innocent. It just struck me as inevitable. And of course the saddest scene was the reaction to Cedric's death. I don't find death in and of itself necessarily sad, personally. I find the reactions of those left behind are what make me sad. Joanne. -- Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat. Now, that's a fact. I'll fuckin' kill you. Chuckie (Ben Affleck) Good Will Hunting From mindyatime at juno.com Mon Aug 13 16:57:18 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:57:18 -0400 Subject: My apologies (was re: the real prediction) Message-ID: <20010813.125727.-387631.0.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24107 pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it wrote: > it seems that our Admins had a well- deserved lie- in yesterday, and > I'm not in the least authorized to play their role, being a rather recent member of this group, but I'd like to say this anyway: I don't think it's of interest for anybody on this list to read posts where people are bickering about what to do or not to do on Shabbat. It's not only OT, it's highly private, so please.... Susanna, you are right, and I'm sorry, I did receive an email from one of the elves explaining to me why that was not appropriate. Being very new, I did not know all the rules and regulations and I was not aware of the OT part of HP. Now, they have straightened me out. I won't do it again. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Aug 13 17:19:22 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:19:22 -0700 Subject: Snakes imitate art? Message-ID: <3B77A9AA.7121.7A171BF@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 24108 I've been meaning to ask this for some time but I've been forgettng: Did anyone here see the premire of "When Dinosaurs Roamed America" on the Discovery Channel, and if so, did you catch the show about snakes that came before? Did you notice that bit when they talked about the boa that escaped from its master's house USING THE PIPES and showed up in someone else's bathroom toilet?! Do you think this incident is where Jo got the idea, or is it merely a case of a snake imitating art?? -- Dave From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 17:29:05 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which character will become a teacher? In-Reply-To: <9l8fui+sjqo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010813172905.75884.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24109 --- KayandJay1 at MSN.com wrote: >I think that Fleur Delacour will be >the next DADA teacher. I don't. She couldn't even get away from grindylows! >She said that she wanted to be a >Hogwarts teacher in GoF. She never said she wanted to be a teacher. The exact quote: "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope," said Fleur, as she reached him, holding out her hand. "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my English." >That was her last year as a student >so, she could teach We don't know that. We only know she was older than 17. Cedric still had a year left. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From joym999 at aol.com Mon Aug 13 18:14:12 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 18:14:12 -0000 Subject: what surprised you the most? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010807054531.00ab64a0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <9l95dk+795c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24110 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris wrote: > Do to the recent thread of "why did you start reading the HP books" I was > very curious to find out which bombshell, large or small, surprised you the > most Great thread, Chris. I am one of those readers described as "along for the ride" readers, in other words the first time I read a book I do not really think about the plot, or the mysteries, or the inconsistencies, or what will happen - I just sort of lay back and let the author tell me his/her story. Because of this, I am rarely surprised at anything. But there is one part in the HP books so far that did shock me. That is the first chapter of GoF. Maybe because it is somewhat confusing -- you have to use your brain to work out which Riddle is which -- but when I realized that JKR was saying that Tom Riddle, while still a teenager, went and killed his own father and his grandparents, I was really shocked. Up until that point, it was unclear (at least to me) why Voldy was considered such a bad guy -- we knew he killed people but not really any details. Then we find out that he is a truly psychotic lunatic, and has been since a very young age. I found that terrifying and shocking. I am also surprised that no one else seems to have been affected by that scene as much as I was; and that other people find Wormtail, Crouch and others to be scarier than Voldemort. What is scarier than an insane serial killer who inspires people to follow his lead? To me, nothing, except maybe for a moronic greedy national leader who inspires people to follow his lead, but thats a forbidden topic so I cant go there. --Joywitch From salter15 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 18:36:08 2001 From: salter15 at yahoo.com (Janet) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 18:36:08 -0000 Subject: Sears Movie Posters Message-ID: <9l96mo+fh55@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24111 Ok, I just need to know how many of you have gone to Sears for copies of the movies posters? I did, have one of each. From salter15 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 18:35:43 2001 From: salter15 at yahoo.com (Janet) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 18:35:43 -0000 Subject: Sears Movie Posters Message-ID: <9l96lv+k194@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24112 Ok, I just need to know how many of you have gone to Sears for copies of the movies posters? I did, have one of each. From fourfuries at aol.com Mon Aug 13 19:11:52 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:11:52 -0000 Subject: God, I Love Rumors... In-Reply-To: <9fdsam+q96l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l98po+618o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24113 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., banjoken at o... wrote: > I'm really sorry to do this, but I cannot in good concience let it > go. I'll save the homophobia bit for now, and get on with the main > point. First it was an obvious joke, and I'm sure it was intended as > such. Second, and I think most important, HP is just a story. It's a > marvelous one, and it's certianly worthy of the serious discussion it > gets here, but in the end, it's only fiction. > > I really wanted to stay out of the homophobia, but there's just one > comment I have to make. > > >Still, I'll be damned if I'd ever > > put something in front of my kid that validates that kind of > >lifestyle and tries to portray it as normal. > > How is this attitude any different from the attitude the Dursely's > have about magic? What makes one "abnormality" (magic) acceptable and another disgusting? > > Ken Folks, the third best selling author of all time has a responsibility to the tens of millions of children who are her readership, as well as to the parents that buy the books. Magic, as far as anyone can tell, is not real. Homosexuality is, and has been around forever. It has also been spurned, attacked and whatever else for forever. If JKR validates it by engaging two of the favorite male characters in a tryst, she is doing more than putting it on the level of magical fantasy. She is telling impressionable kids its okay, a judgement that should be reserved to their parents, atleast until they are old enough to manke a judgement for themselves. From fourfuries at aol.com Mon Aug 13 19:17:59 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:17:59 -0000 Subject: God, I Love Rumors... In-Reply-To: <9l98po+618o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l9957+d52c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24114 Sorry. Just saw the "do not respond" request. 4F From heidit at netbox.com Mon Aug 13 19:20:08 2001 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:20:08 -0000 Subject: ADMIN (was Re: God, I Love Rumors...) In-Reply-To: <9l98po+618o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l9998+hope@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24115 : grabs the hairnet that Neil left behind when he went a-traveling... I am shutting down this thread now. The post that was replied to dates from Sunday, June 3 - in other words, over 2 months ago. Any reply to it would be outdated by this point. If one of the mods wants to overrule this elfin decision, that's fine. But for now, any replies should be kept offlist. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., banjoken at o... wrote: > > I'm really sorry to do this, but I cannot in good concience let it > > go. I'll save the homophobia bit for now, and get on with the main > > point. First it was an obvious joke, and I'm sure it was intended > as > > such. Second, and I think most important, HP is just a story. It's > a > > marvelous one, and it's certianly worthy of the serious discussion > it > > gets here, but in the end, it's only fiction. > > > > I really wanted to stay out of the homophobia, but there's just one > > comment I have to make. > > > > >Still, I'll be damned if I'd ever > > > put something in front of my kid that validates that kind of > > >lifestyle and tries to portray it as normal. > > > > How is this attitude any different from the attitude the Dursely's > > have about magic? What makes one "abnormality" (magic) acceptable > and another disgusting? > > > > Ken > > > Folks, the third best selling author of all time has a responsibility > to the tens of millions of children who are her readership, as well > as to the parents that buy the books. Magic, as far as anyone can > tell, is not real. Homosexuality is, and has been around forever. > It has also been spurned, attacked and whatever else for forever. If > JKR validates it by engaging two of the favorite male characters in a > tryst, she is doing more than putting it on the level of magical > fantasy. She is telling impressionable kids its okay, a judgement > that should be reserved to their parents, atleast until they are old > enough to manke a judgement for themselves. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Aug 13 21:52:45 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:52:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Student Teacher - Werewolf Cubs - True Prediction In-Reply-To: <3B77493F.483EC933@wicca.net> Message-ID: <3B77E9BD.20751.89BC338@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 24116 On 12 Aug 2001, at 20:27, Rita Winston wrote: > Why can't she ... accept a position > as the new, reform-minded Headmistress of Durmstrang... I like this. :) > Altho, SO MANY people expect Neville > to become the Herbology teacher, I don't know that it would be as big > a surprise as JKR hints. I'm counting on his winding up as the Potions master! > But the point we're arguing over is whether the Prediction had ALREADY > come true AT THE TIME that Dumbledore identified it as Trelawney's > second true prediction. Dumbledore's statement was near the end of PoA > and the BFB event was in GoF, therefore had not happened YET when > Dumbledore spoke. > > SO the FIRST true prediction might not have come true yet by GoF! What I want to know is, why is V worried (if indeed he is) about the prediction of someone who never made a true prediction prior to that? What does he know about her that we don't?? -- Dave From j_williams2147043256 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 23:58:49 2001 From: j_williams2147043256 at yahoo.com (j_williams2147043256 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:58:49 -0000 Subject: V's wand, Trap door in PS / SS Message-ID: <9l9pjp+e6dk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24117 I have been lurking in this group for a long time and I finally decided to post. In GOF during the priori encatarum (sp?) there is no mention or siting of the cruciartus curse that Voldemort had applied on Wormtail twice and other DE once. (sorry I don't have the book with me) What effect would that have had if any on Harry during the duel. I am sure that this has been discussed previously on the archive but I do not know where to find it. Also one more question that I am sure will get me refered to the FAQ... How did the trapdoor get shut after Quirrel / Voldemort went through the tunnel? Do Snapes potion samples in Fluffy's lair refill themselves after being consumed? Or did Dumbledore use a charm similar to the one that Wendalyn the Weird used? (mentioned in COS,POA or GOF sorry I don't have the books with me) Oh yeah and for introductions I am Jesse and I live in NM. From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Tue Aug 14 00:58:03 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 00:58:03 -0000 Subject: Winky & probably typo Message-ID: <9l9t2r+9g31@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24118 I have two questions, which probably (as they're pretty obvious) have been debated to death already, but I'm new here, so bear with me if you can. First, in GoF, after Dumbledore has blasted the fake Moody from outside the door and the latter is lying unconscious on the floor of 'his' office, Dumbledore sends Minerva McGonagall to fetch Snuffles from the pumpkin patch and Snape to the dungeon to get some Veritaserum and then to the kitchen to fetch Winky the house elf. How, if the fake Moody still looks like Moody, does Dumbledore know that there's a connection to Winky? Secondly, a little later Dumbledore tells Sirius and Snape that 'time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not stand united, there is no hope for any of us.' Isn't this the opposite of what he ought to be saying? 'Unless we stand united there's no hope for any of us', or alternatively, 'If we do not stand united there's not hope for any of us'. English is not my native language, so I suppose I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Bente From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 01:35:43 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 01:35:43 -0000 Subject: Winky & probably typo In-Reply-To: <9l9t2r+9g31@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9l9v9f+b2ae@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24119 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > How, if the fake Moody still looks like Moody, does Dumbledore know > that there's a connection to Winky? Possibly Dumbledore finally added up a bunch of disparate facts and got Bart Junior. Took him long enough, though. Someone had been impersonating his friend for nearly a full year, and he hadn't noticed. > Secondly, a little later Dumbledore tells Sirius and Snape that 'time > is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not stand > united, there is no hope for any of us.' Isn't this the opposite of > what he ought to be saying? > Bente In the AE, pg 712, the wording is, "unless the few of us who know the truth stand united, there is no hope for any of us." Which edition do you have? Marcus From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Tue Aug 14 01:57:32 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 01:57:32 -0000 Subject: Winky & probably typo In-Reply-To: <9l9v9f+b2ae@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9la0ic+c3vj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24120 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > > In the AE, pg 712, the wording is, "unless the few of us who know the > truth stand united, there is no hope for any of us." Which edition > do you have? > > Marcus First American Edition, July 2000. Page 712, second paragraph from the bottom. "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not stand united, there is no hope for any of us." They must have fixed it later, the way they fixed the Priori Incantatem thing. I figured it was probably a mistake - a lot of people have trouble with double negatives - but with the gleam in Dumbledore's eye and all that... just as well to make sure! Bente From linman6868 at aol.com Tue Aug 14 02:21:02 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 22:21:02 EDT Subject: Wands and Magical Ability, Part One Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24121 Since "Wands and Magical Ability" is a perennial topic on this list, it follows that I probably won't be presenting anything new. So for better or worse, here is what I've gathered on the subject from my readings on and off list, from the obvious to the not-so-obvious.... W H A T M A G I C A L A B I L I T Y I S "I am much, much more than a man...." -- CANON EXAMPLES What is magical ability? The wizards in HP take the answer to this question for granted, but, being Muggles, we don't. What wizards do say, however, gives us a few clues. Most wizards speak of magical ability as an inherent talent that appears in humans in various degrees. We find this out for the first time when Hagrid informs Harry that he is a wizard: ** "I'm a *what*?" gasped Harry. "A wizard, o' course," said Hagrid, sitting back down on the sofa, which groaned and sank even lower, "an' a thumpin' good'un, I'd say, once yeh've been trained up a bit. With a mum and dad like yours, what else would yeh be?...." (PS/SS, Ch. 4) ** Which gives us two more clues to the puzzle, that magical ability is genetically linked, and that the talent can be cultivated to focus the power of the wizard. This is supported by Ron's explanation of the terms "Mudblood" and "Squib" in CoS. Ron, spouting slugs and indignation, explains Malfoy's insult to Hermione: ** "It's about the most insulting thing he could think of....Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born -- you know, non-magic parents. There are some wizards -- like Malfoy's family -- who think they're better than everyone else because they're what people call pure-blood....I mean, the rest of us know it doesn't make any difference at all. Look at Neville Longbottom -- he's pure-blood and he can hardly stand a cauldron the right way up." "And they haven't invented a spell our Hermione can' do," said Hagrid.... "It's a disgusting thing to call someone," said Ron, wiping his sweaty brow with a shaking hand. "Dirty blood, see. Common blood. It's ridiculous. Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." (CoS, Ch. 7) ** And similarly, Ron explains what makes Argus Filch a Squib: ** "Well -- it's not funny really -- but as it's Filch," he said. "A Squib is someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any magic powers. Kind of the opposite of Muggle-born wizards, but Squibs are quite unusual. If Filch's trying to learn magic from a Kwikspell course, I reckon he must be a Squib. It would explain a lot. Like why he hates students so much." Ron gave a satisfied smile. "He's bitter." (CoS, Ch. 9) ** This would suggest that the wizarding talent gene is dominant, if apparently magic-less people produce a wizard and wizards rarely produce anything but more wizards. According to Ron, Squibs and near-Squibs use such things as Kwikspell courses in the attempt to make up for what powers they lack, probably not with much results. Which suggests again that training is meant to focus and polish magical people's powers, not bring them into being where they did not exist before. On the other end of the scale, sometimes great respect is afforded a wizard merely for having a high degree of magical power, as Sirius explains: ** "He was tipped for the next Minister of Magic," said Sirius. "He's a great wizard, Barty Crouch [Sr.], powerfully magical -- and power-hungry. Oh never a Voldemort supporter," he said, reading the look on Harry's face. "No, Barty Crouch was always very outspoken against the Dark Side...." (GoF, Ch 27). ** In fact, wizards often place so much more emphasis on the existing power than the training that many of them consider Muggles a separate species altogether: "We are all familiar with the extremists who campaign for the classification of Muggles as 'beasts'," writes Newt Scamander (FB xiii). On the other hand, compare Hermione, hugging Harry before his showdown with Voldemort in PS/SS: ** "Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be *careful*!" (PS/SS, Ch. 16) ** According to Hermione, the most important thing about being a great wizard is not the training or even the power but the sort of person one is in the first place. Which brings me to the next issue. THE PHILOSOPHER'S LABYRINTH C.S. Lewis, in arguing that the philosophical battle-lines were drawn differently in the sixteenth century than they are now, spends a few pages on the sixteenth-century concept of magic. I quote here not because I consider Lewis the last word on the subject, but because I find the argument useful to stimulate my own thoughts on magical ability. I do, however, highly recommend the essay in its own right; it can be found as the Introduction to Lewis's ENGLISH LITERATURE IN THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY, EXCLUDING DRAMA (Oxford UP, 1954). ** This conflict between the magician and the astrologer seems very surprising to those who want to impose our modern grouping on the men of the past; for by our grouping magic and astrology go together as 'superstitions'. But the moment we drop our grouping (which is from the historical point of view irrelevant and accidental) and try to see the two arts as they appeared to their exponents, the thing becomes perfectly simple. Magic and astrology, though of course often mixed in practice, are in tendency opposed. The magician asserts human onmipotence; the astrologer, human impotence. The common emotion (whether of repulsion or whimsical curiosity) which unites them in our minds is modern: something on the lens of the glass we look through, not something in the historical object. [snip more on the literary history of magic -- very interesting] But in Spenser, Marlowe, Chapman, and Shakespeare the subject [of magic] is treated quite differently. 'He to his studie goes'; books are opened, terrible words pronounced, souls imperilled. The medieval author seems to write for a public to whom magic, like knight-errantry, is part of the furniture of romance: the Elizabethan, for a public who feel that it might be going on in the next street. ** According to Lewis, the scholars of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries were attempting to teach themselves power via magic; as that failed, they turned to technology, and the connotation of technology has taken over the meaning of our word science. Astrologers, on whose heels followed the Calvinists, were determinists who denied the power that the scientist/scholar/magicians were seeking. What does this have to do with the Potterverse, and magical ability? I'm thinking about alchemy, which had its heyday of study during the period Lewis describes. It's been said on the list more than once that the Philosopher's Stone was meant to be a by-product of the whole alchemic process; that is, that the goal was not the Stone itself but being a person worthy of the Stone. That's why it was called the *Philosopher's* Stone -- the stone of the person who loves wisdom. Reaching that goal meant reaching higher and higher levels of personal transformation and power -- something which the people of the Renaissance still believed possible. Thus when Dumbledore turns Harry's mind away from the reason Voldemort wanted to kill him in PS/SS; when he explains to Harry that one's choices are more important than one's abilities, at the end of CoS; when he lambasts Fudge at the end of GoF about the relative unimportance of pedigree in the face of "what [a person] grows to be", he is explaining that inward personal transformation is the highest use (if not the only real use) to which magical ability should be put -- and never mind power-hungry maniacs, Muggle-borns, and the status-quo of magical culture. I find it telling that the foil to the alchemic process is Dumbledore's description of Tom Riddle's philosophic transformation: ** "Very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle. I taught him myself, fifty years ago, at Hogwarts. He disappeared after leaving the school...traveled far and wide...sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable. Hardly anyone connected Lord Voldemort with the clever, handsome boy who was once Head Boy here." (CoS, Ch. 18) ** Thus magical ability is a complex component of a human being that is genetically derived, varying in intensity, and in need of training and focus like other talents. It commands respect, but according to the wisest heads ought to be the means to wise living, rather than the end. My next post will deal with the subject of Wands and with Harry as the lens through which we view this subject. I'm also deferring the discussion questions to that post, but feel free to slice and dice this up too. To be continued.... Lisa I. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com Tue Aug 14 02:47:43 2001 From: matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com (Matthew Dawdy) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 21:47:43 -0500 Subject: V's wand In-Reply-To: <997755674.3813.1141.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24122 From: j_williams2147043256 at yahoo.com > there is no mention or siting of the cruciartus curse that > Voldemort had applied on Wormtail twice and other DE once. Actually, there is. It eluded me until the umpteenth time I read it. "At once, Voldemort's wand began to emit echoing screams of pain..." p. 665 in American edition ??? I don't know how to figure out the edition. Wand them emits wormtails hand, then: "...more shouts of pain..." same page. Then Cedric. I never really paid attention to that stuff. Reading too fast to see what happened (I have that problem.) Matt From Alyeskakc at aol.com Tue Aug 14 02:57:59 2001 From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 02:57:59 -0000 Subject: Chapter 7 Summary and Questions Message-ID: <9la43o+2qt2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24123 Hi All~ Sorry this is a bit late. Here's the summary for Chapter 7 of CoS. Chapter 8 will be coming along shortly. Enjoy! :) Cheers, Kristin "the Queen of Procrastination" Chapter 7: Mudbloods and Murmurs The chapter begins with Harry trying to avoid Lockhart and Colin. However it's harder to avoid Colin because he seems to have memorized Harry's timetable. With all things that have happened during the week Harry can't wait for the weekend. Very early Saturday morning Oliver Wood shakes Harry awake for Quidditch practice. Harry drags himself out of bed, writes Ron a note, pulls on his Quidditch robes, grabs his broom, and heads downstairs. Just as he reaches the Portrait hole Colin accosts him. Colin tries to show Harry the picture of him and Lockhart, but Harry tells him he's in a hurry- Quidditch practice. Colin follows Harry and begins to bombard him with questions about Quidditch. Resigned Harry explains the rules of Quidditch as they walk towards the pitch. He finally shakes Colin off when he reaches the changing rooms. The rest of the Gryffindor team is already there, but no one looks really awake except Wood. Wood starts to explain his new strategies and everyone falls asleep. They're started awake when Wood asks if there are any questions. George asks why he couldn't have told them all this stuff yesterday when they were awake. Wood gets angry and tells them they need to work harder than the other teams. Harry feels a little guilty when he realizes Wood is still upset about their defeat last year. They leave the changing rooms to begin practice. Ron, Hermione, and Colin are sitting in the stands. Colin begins to snap pictures as the Gryffindor team flies around the pitch. George asks Harry about Colin and Harry pretends not to know who he is. Wood then accuses Colin of being a Slytherin spy. Harry quickly says that Colin is a Gryffindor and George says Slytherin doesn't need a spy because they're here in person. Furious at the Slytherin presence, Wood shoots towards the ground to confront their team captain Marcus Flint. Wood tells Flint that they have booked the pitch. Flint then pulls out a note from Snape saying they have permission to use the pitch because the Slytherins have to train their new seeker. Draco appears out from behind six Slytherins. Fred makes a comment about him being Lucius Malfoy's son. Which then leads to Flint tell them about Lucius' generous gift, seven brand new Nimbus Two Thousand and One brooms that he bought for the Slytherin team. None of the Gryffindors can think of anything to say. By this time Ron, Hermione, and Colin have made their way down to the pitch. Draco comments about how he's the new seeker and his father's gift. Hermione tells Draco at least no one on Gryffindor's team had to buy their way on to the team. Draco tells her to shut up and calls her a filthy little Mudblood. Everyone on the Gryffindor team is shocked and angered by his comment; Harry and Hermione know it's an insult by how everyone is reacting but don't know the meaning behind it. A fight soon ensues and Ron pulls out his wand to curse Draco. However Ron's wand backfires and the curse hits him in the stomach instead. When he tries to speak he belches instead and several slugs come out. The Gryffindors don't know what to do and the Slytherins and doubled over with laughter. Finally Harry and Hermione decide to take Ron to Hagrid's since his cabin is closer. Just as they get to the cabin they see Lockhart coming out. Harry and company duck behind a bush until Lockhart leaves. They knock on Hagrid's door and he looks rather grumpy when he first opens the door thinking that Lockhart had returned. Harry explains what happened on the Quidditch pitch. Hagrid then tells Harry and Hermione that being called a Mudblood is a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born. Ron adds that by some pure-blood families Muggle-blood is dirty blood, Common blood. Hagrid teases Harry about giving away autographed pictures of himself. Hagrid shows them the pumpkins he's be growing which are quite large. Hermione says something about and Engorgement Charm and Harry suspects that Hagrid has his old school wand hidden inside the flowery pink umbrella. The trio head back up to the castle for lunch. Ron is still hiccoughing but only two very small slugs come up. As they step foot into the Entrance Hall Professor McGonagall stops them to tell Harry and Ron what their detentions are going to be. Ron will be polishing all the silver in the trophy room, by hand, and Harry will be helping Professor Lockhart. Harry asks if he can polish sliver too, but McGonagall tells Harry that Lockhart requested him specifically and they are to report to detention and Eight o'clock sharp. Harry reluctantly shows up at Lockhart's office. He has to help address envelopes for all Lockhart's fan mail. Harry doesn't really listen to Lockhart prattle on but occasionally throws in a mmm, right and yeah. Suddenly Harry hears a chilling voice whisper `Come come to me let me rip you let me tear you let me kill you '. Harry asks the Professor if he hears the voice but Lockhart just looks astonished. Realizing that it's very late, Lockhart lets Harry leave. Harry strains to try and hear the voice again but it's gone. He heads back to the dorm and waits for Ron. He tells Ron about the voice and that Lockhart didn't hear it. They speculate that maybe someone might have been hiding under an invisibility cloak or that Lockhart is lying about not hear the voice. 1)How does Hagrid get away with using his wand? Does Dumbledore know that Hagrid uses it and just tends to overlook it? What about the MoM? 2)Why would Hogwarts allow Draco to buy his way onto the Slytherin Quidditch team? Are they that afraid of Lucius Malfoy? 3)Why do you think Hermione and the other women (with the exception of McGonagall) can't see what a fraud Lockhart is? Do you think he uses some sort of charm that only affects females? 4)When you first read CoS, who did you think the mysterious voice was? 5)Why would they let a student keep a broken wand? Doesn't the staff think it could be dangerous since a broken wand is unpredictable? From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 03:39:45 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 22:39:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 7 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9la43o+2qt2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24124 1) How does Hagrid get away with using his wand? Does Dumbledore know that Hagrid uses it and just tends to overlook it? What about the MoM? I would suppose that Dumbledore knows about it but just doesn?t say anything. I don?t think the MoM keeps a close eye on Hagrid, he is after all the school?s responsibility. Dumbledore never thought Hagrid was responsible for opening the CoS so he probably doesn?t mind that he uses some magic. 2) Why would Hogwarts allow Draco to buy his way onto the Slytherin Quidditch team? Are they that afraid of Lucius Malfoy? I think it would be more of a House thing. If the team captain (Flint) or house head (Snape) allowed it, I think it?d be allowed. Flint would certainly appreciate having a bunch of new brooms and we know that Draco is Snape?s favorite student. 3) Why do you think Hermione and the other women (with the exception of McGonagall) can't see what a fraud Lockhart is? Do you think he uses some sort of charm that only affects females? Oh right, since pre-teen girls always think straight when it comes to handsome men. Two words: Backstreet Boys. 4) When you first read CoS, who did you think the mysterious voice was? Voldemort, I mean, who else would want to kill people in Hogwarts? :-) 5) Why would they let a student keep a broken wand? Doesn't the staff think it could be dangerous since a broken wand is unpredictable? Well, they can?t exactly force him to buy a new one, can they? I mean, everyone knows that the Weasly?s have ?more children than they can afford? in Draco?s own words. It?d be rather embarrassing if one of the teachers asked Ron to get a new wand and then watched him get all pink. I wouldn?t have put it past Snape to have done so Besides, how would we have gotten rid of Lockhart without Ron?s wand? :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 05:07:07 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 05:07:07 -0000 Subject: Winky & probably typo In-Reply-To: <9la0ic+c3vj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lablr+7mie@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24125 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > > > > In the AE, pg 712, the wording is, "unless the few of us who know > the > > truth stand united, there is no hope for any of us." Which edition > > do you have? > > > > Marcus > > First American Edition, July 2000. Page 712, second paragraph from > the bottom. "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the > truth do not stand united, there is no hope for any of us." They must > have fixed it later, the way they fixed the Priori Incantatem thing. > I figured it was probably a mistake - a lot of people have trouble > with double negatives - but with the gleam in Dumbledore's eye and > all that... just as well to make sure! > > Bente I just checked my first edition. You are right. They snuck in a correction there. Marcus From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 05:08:36 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 05:08:36 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Re: Sears Movie Posters/OOTP/BTW In-Reply-To: <9l96mo+fh55@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9labok+etrc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24126 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Janet" wrote: > Ok, I just need to know how many of you have gone to Sears for copies > of the movies posters? > > I did, have one of each. I had no idea about this. Can someone give me more information? Can someone send me an email if something other than "July 2002" is announced for ORDER OF THE PHOENIX? N BTW: (I will contribute even MORE infrequently between now and mid- November due to the imminent start of my third term in grad school...will be buried under books for a long time...until then...take care everyone). From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Aug 14 05:14:55 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:14:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky & probably typo In-Reply-To: <9l9t2r+9g31@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010814051455.87431.qmail@web14708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24127 --- Bente13 at peoplepc.com ha scritto: <...Dumbledore sends Minerva McGonagall to fetch
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 05:16:09 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 05:16:09 -0000 Subject: V's wand, Trap door in PS / SS In-Reply-To: <9l9pjp+e6dk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lac6p+gelp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24128 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., j_williams2147043256 at y... wrote: > How did the trapdoor > get shut after Quirrel / Voldemort went through the tunnel? Do > Snapes potion samples in Fluffy's lair refill themselves after being > consumed? Or did Dumbledore use a charm similar to the one that > Wendalyn the Weird used? (mentioned in COS,POA or GOF sorry I don't > have the books with me) Oh yeah and for introductions I am Jesse and > I live in NM. While we are at it, did Dumbledore have to put Fluffy to sleep, capture the key, and play a chess game before getting into the inner chamber to rescue Harry? I doubt it, yet if he could take a short- cut, how come another wizard couldn't? Marcus P.S.: As to the trap door, Quirrel could have been on a broom. He could have hovered and closed the door behind him. He left his harp behind him. M From katzefan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 05:19:16 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 05:19:16 -0000 Subject: Winky & probably typo In-Reply-To: <9l9t2r+9g31@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lacck+tlc6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24129 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > I have two questions, which probably (as they're pretty obvious) have > been debated to death already, but I'm new here, so bear with me if > you can. > > First, in GoF, after Dumbledore has blasted the fake Moody from > outside the door and the latter is lying unconscious on the floor > of 'his' office, Dumbledore sends Minerva McGonagall to fetch > Snuffles from the pumpkin patch and Snape to the dungeon to get some > Veritaserum and then to the kitchen to fetch Winky the house elf. > How, if the fake Moody still looks like Moody, does Dumbledore know > that there's a connection to Winky? Dumbledore tells Harry, "The real Moody would not have removed you from my sight after what happened tonight. The moment he took you, I knew -- and I followed." I took this to mean that, while Dumbledore may not have known exactly who the fake Moody really was, he did know that it was not the real 'Mad-Eye' Moody. As to the connection with Winky, I'm thinking he may have been putting pieces of the puzzle together over time (such as Barty Crouch Sr.'s odd behaviour, and then Harry's report of Sr. showing up, disoriented and confused, on Hogwarts grounds) and had a strong suspicion who the 'fake' Moody might be. > > Secondly, a little later Dumbledore tells Sirius and Snape that 'time > is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not stand > united, there is no hope for any of us.' Isn't this the opposite of > what he ought to be saying? 'Unless we stand united there's no hope > for any of us', or alternatively, 'If we do not stand united there's > not hope for any of us'. English is not my native language, so I > suppose I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. > Actually, you got it right the second time around; Dumbledore says "... unless the few of us who know the truth stand united, there is no hope for any of us." From katzefan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 05:28:50 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 05:28:50 -0000 Subject: V's wand, Trap door in PS / SS In-Reply-To: <9lac6p+gelp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lacui+j18l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24130 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., j_williams2147043256 at y... wrote: > > While we are at it, did Dumbledore have to put Fluffy to sleep, > capture the key, and play a chess game before getting into the inner > chamber to rescue Harry? I doubt it, yet if he could take a short- > cut, how come another wizard couldn't? > > Marcus > > P.S.: As to the trap door, Quirrel could have been on a broom. He > could have hovered and closed the door behind him. He left his harp > behind him. M Couldn't even hazard a guess at your first questions (i.e. do Snape's potions refill themselves in Fluffy's lair -- although once the Stone is gone, they wouldn't have to), but in response to your question about Dumbledore's shortcut, he is known to be the greatest wizard in many centuries (if not all time) so it would not be too surprising if he could find a shortcut through the tests that others wouldn't be able to use. (Not to mention the fact that I'm sure he oversaw the setting up of the whole thing...) From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 05:41:50 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 22:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 7 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9la43o+2qt2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010814054150.24449.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24131 --- Kristin wrote: > 1)How does Hagrid get away with using his wand? > Does Dumbledoreknow that Hagrid uses it and just > tends to overlook it? What about the MoM? Dumbledore knows that Hagrid uses the wand. IMO there isn't much that goes on that he doesn't know about. Anyway, remember in PS/SS after Hagrid has Harry and they are in the boat, he says he isn't supposed to use magic now that he has Harry. How could he do any magic, unless he still had his wand or part of it? That seems to imply that Dumbledore does know. > 2)Why would Hogwarts allow Draco to buy his way > onto the Slytherin > Quidditch team? Are they that afraid of Lucius > Malfoy? > Hogwarts didn't allow it, the Slytherin Quidditch team did. It seems from what we saw in PS/SS that it is up to the team captain who is on the team. Albeit they have to have clearance from a professor/their head of house. I don't think Malfoy's influence has as much to do with anything as his money. He gets to help out his old house and get his son rocognition. Why on earth would Flint refuse the then fastest brooms? > 3)Why do you think Hermione and the other women > (with the exception > of McGonagall) can't see what a fraud Lockhart > is? Do you think > he uses some sort of charm that only affects > females? > Males aren't the only ones succeptable to the syndrome of "with looks like that, who cares if s/he is capable of speech?" The other explaination is that they are so blinded by the light glinting off of his ever present smile that they can't see/think straight. Then again, maybe he *does* have the same effect on everyone, but it isn't discussed. Sounds like the beginning of a very disturbing slash. Anything involving Lockheart is disturbing... > 4)When you first read CoS, who did you think the > mysterious voice was? > The disembodied spirit of Voldemort. I was thinking perhaps he hadn't gone so far as everyonr thought... in a round about sort of way I was right...well, not really but I had to try. > 5)Why would they let a student keep a broken wand? > Doesn't the staff think it could be dangerous since a broken wand is unpredictable? > While a broken wand is unpredictable, what can they do really? It was his own fault (sorry Ron) that it was broken in the first place and most of the professors would take the stand that he had to deal with the results by himself. There is also the money issue. There are a *lot* of Weasley's in school. They can't really afford another wand, and the school can't buy wands for everyone. Since he is only a second year, he doesn't really know *that* much that couldn't be undone. No AK or cruciatious at this point (he shouldn't be using them anyway) so no serious harm. ~Bethany __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From hyria at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 05:45:50 2001 From: hyria at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Incitatus?=) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 06:45:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky & probably typo In-Reply-To: <9lacck+tlc6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010814054550.85658.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24132 Bente13 at p... wrote: > > Secondly, a little later Dumbledore tells Sirius > and Snape that > 'time > > is short, and unless the few of us who know the > truth do not > stand > > united, there is no hope for any of us.' Isn't > this the opposite of > > what he ought to be saying? 'Unless we stand > united there's > no hope > > for any of us', katzefan at yahoo.com replied: > Actually, you got it right the second time around; > Dumbledore > says "... unless the few of us who know the truth > stand united, > there is no hope for any of us." > There was me about to agree. I've just checked the UK First Edition (p618) and it reads: "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth stand united, there is no hope for any us." It can't be only my copy with a missing 'of'! Really I don't know why I'm pointing this out ... probably because my nightshift is almost over and I am very tired. Catriona ~ Sinking to new depths of pickiness ~ ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From Alyeskakc at aol.com Tue Aug 14 05:51:13 2001 From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 05:51:13 -0000 Subject: Chapter 8 Summary and Questions Message-ID: <9lae8h+bt8h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24133 Hi again~ Here's Chapter 8's summary and questions. This is the first time I've done this so I hope the summaries and questions are okay. Sorry again for the delay, RL was a bit wonky the last two weeks. Cheers, Kristin Chapter 8: The Deathday Party The Chapter opens with a sudden spate of colds among staff and students. Madam Pompfrey dispensed Pepperup Potion, which worked instantly but left drinker smoking around the ears for several hours. Percy bullies Ginny into taking some because she's been looking ill. It's been raining for days on end, which hasn't dampened Wood's enthusiasm for regular Quidditch practice. That last practice hadn't been a happy one when Fred and George told the rest of the team about how fast the Nimbus Two Thousand and Ones were. Soaked and muddy Harry made his way to the Gryffindor Tower. Preoccupied and dripping his way down the hall, Harry runs into Nearly Headless Nick, who is also preoccupied. Harry asks Nick what's wrong and Nick tells him about not being accepted to join the Headless Hunt Club. Nick then asks Harry what's wrong and Harry asks him if he knows where he can find seven free Nimbus Two Thousand and Ones. Just then Mrs. Norris starts winding around Harry's ankles mewing. Nick warns Harry that Filch is on the warpath and he better leave. However the warning is too late, Filch appears and drags Harry off to his office to write him up. While in his office Harry notices the file drawers that contain details of every student Filch has ever punished. He also notices that Fred and George have their own drawer. When Filch begins to write Harry's report there's a loud bang on the ceiling above Filch's desk. Thinking Peeves is to blame Filch races out of the office leaving Harry behind. Thinking he should wait for Filch to return Harry remains in his office. A purple envelope catches his eye and he can't resist looking at what it is. Harry examines the KWIKSPELL contents and wonders why Filch would have such a thing. He hears Filch return and throws the envelope back on the desk. Filch notices the envelope isn't where he left it and when asked about it Harry lies and said he didn't look at it. Filch then sends Harry away without writing him up. Harry hurries back upstairs, not believing his luck, when he runs into Nick. Nick tells Harry he talked Peeves into dropping a cabinet right over Filch's office to distract him. Harry tells Nick thanks and Nick invites Harry to his 500th Deathday Party along with Ron and Hermione. Harry accepts. When Halloween rolls around Harry is beginning to regret his rash promise to go to Nick's party, as the rest of the school prepares for the feast. Hermione tells him a promise is a promise so they head down to the dungeons at seven o'clock. The dungeon is filled with hundreds of ghosts, most of whom are drifting around a crowded dance floor. The trio looks around the room noticing the different ghosts, when Hermione spots Moaning Myrtle. She tells the boys about Myrtle and how she haunts the girl's bathroom. While they're at the food table Peeves comes up, calls Myrtle over, and starts causing trouble. Nick comes up and asks if they're having a good time, to which The Trio lies and says yes. Just as Nick is about to give his speech the Headless Hunt Club shows up. Sir Patrick and company show off and comment on The Trio being at the party. Cold and hungry they decide to slip out of the party and head back upstairs hoping to get some food at the feast. As they walk towards the Great Hall Harry hears the voice again and begins to follow it. He runs upstairs and an exasperated Ron and Hermione follow. He tells them he thinks it's going to kill someone. They run the up to the second floor and through the corridor, when they come to a halt. Between two windows are foot-high words: THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS HAS BEEN OPENED. ENEMIES OF THE HEIR BEWARE. Hanging underneath is Mrs. Norris, who is stiff as a board. Harry asks if they should do something and Ron says they should leave. However it's too late the feast has ended and everyone has begun to pour into the corridor. All the noise and chatter suddenly stops as people see the hanging cat. Harry, Ron, and Hermione are standing alone in the middle of the corridor, people pressing forward to see the grisly sight. Then a voice shouts out "Enemies of the heir beware. You'll be next, Mudbloods!" Draco has pushed his way to the front looking rather pleased. 1) Do you think that MWPP have their own drawer in Filch's office? Also if people have their own drawers like that why haven't then been expelled? 2) Do you think there might be any significance that Nick died on October 31st, just like Harry's parents? 3) Do you think all the ghosts at Nick's Deathday party were witches or wizards at one time? When you're a ghost can you be part of the wizarding world even if you were once a Muggle? 4) When you read CoS the first time did you wonder why Filch had a KWIKSPELL kit? Did you think he was a Muggle or just a really bad wizard? 5) Did you think that Draco had something to with what happened to Mrs. Norris or at least know who did? From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Tue Aug 14 05:57:56 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 05:57:56 -0000 Subject: Chapter 7 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9la43o+2qt2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lael4+a0ki@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24134 3)Why do you think Hermione and the other women (with the exception of McGonagall) can't see what a fraud Lockhart is? Do you think he uses some sort of charm that only affects females? > I think the whole Lockhart issue revolves around two favourite themes of JKR's: 1) Looks are deceptive (Think Lockhart is to Hermione as Veelas are to Ron) 2) You can't trust everything you read. Remember that everyone still thinks that Lockhart did the things he says he did in his books. These are BOOKS; this is HERMIONE! Besides, I doubt that Lockhart has enough talent for a love charm... 5)Why would they let a student keep a broken wand? Doesn't the staff think it could be dangerous since a broken wand is unpredictable? Sorry, I don't own a copy of CofS yet. Does it mention that the teachers know he has a broken wand? If not, then it seems obvious to me that Ron would hide it. He can't stand charity, and would be too proud to take a hand-me-down wand as well as a hand-me-down rat, IMO. Cheers! Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From catlady at wicca.net Tue Aug 14 06:00:25 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:00:25 -0700 Subject: Something New near Bottom and RE: Voldie's Wand - Genetics & Magical Ability - Chapter Summary Message-ID: <3B78BE79.FB346DED@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24135 The Frequently Asked and Never Decisively Answered Question was: Where was Voldemort's wand between the back-firing attach on the Potters and the first chapter of GoF? My theory is: Wormtail accompanied Voldemort to the Potter's home. Perhaps Voldemort insisted on that as a preventative of Wormtail sending him into an ambush. When Voldemort was vaporized, Wormtail grabbed up his fallen wand before fleeing. It was in Peter's pocket when he was confronted by Sirius. It was with Scabbers all those years, as part of my theory is a belief that not only all the clothing and jewelry that the Animagus is wearing in human form, but also everything in hiser pockets, transforms into bits of fur and skin when the Animagus transforms into beast. As long as I'm asserting things that are not stated in canon, I made up a theory that when a werewolf transforms, only hiser clothing, eyeglasses & such-like prostheses & medical devices, and marriage rings transform with himer -- everything else, including wand, just falls down. There IS canon evidence for the clothes transforming along with the person: the cat on the corner of Privet Drive is not wearing nor carrying clothing, but McGonagall is not nude is her human form. When Lupin turns into a wolf at the worst possible time, JKR didn't say anything about the wolf clawing his way out of a pile of human clothes. There is also a question as to how the Death Eaters in Azkaban could have known that Peter was the one who had led Voldemort to the Potters: (as per the PoA quote below) without MoM or at least Dumbledore getting word of it, such as by one of the imprisoned prisoners who tried to give information in exchange for release, like Karkaroff. "You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years," said Black. "You've been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter... They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them.... I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on your information... and Voldemort met his downfall there. And not all Voldemort's supporters ended up in Azkaban, did they? There are still plenty out here, biding their time, pretending they've seen the error of their ways." Lisa Inman wrote: > This would suggest that the wizarding talent gene > is dominant, if apparently magic-less people > produce a wizard and wizards rarely produce > anything but more wizards. That was a really good post, about the philosophical basis of magic, becoming a good person, and the opposition of magic versus astrology, and all I can comment is a stupid little nitpick: you typed 'dominant' when you meant to type 'recessive' gene. As you know, but in case someone else doesn't, if the trait is a recessive allele ('allele' is a version of a gene, like in the cliche oversimplified example, the gene is eye color and the two alleles are blue and brown), then the person only has the trait if both of their copies of that gene (the one from father and the one from mother) are the recessive allele. If the person has one recessive and one dominant allele (which is called heterozygous), they do not have the recessive trait, they have the dominant trait, but they can pass the recessive gene on to their children. If both parents are heterozygous for the magic gene, both parents are Muggles but their child can inherit the recessive from both of them and be a wizard or witch. The generalization is that in critters who have ten thousand offspring, one quarter of the offspring of two heterozygotes will be double recessive, one quarter will be double dominant, and one half will be heterozygous. Statistical generalizations like that don't hold for small samples like two or even twelve children in a family, so it is perfectly plausible that the Muggle Creevey parents have two wizard sons. But the wizard father and the witch mother are both double-recessive, so both of them can pass only the recessive allele, so all their children will be double-recessive, so being a Squib is either some kind of injury or disease affecting a child who genetically has the trait, or else a sign that Mama was cheating with a Muggle. Kristin wrote: > 2)Why would Hogwarts allow Draco to buy his way > onto the Slytherin Quidditch team? Are they that > afraid of Lucius Malfoy? I agree with what Alfredo said ("I think it would be more of a House thing. If the team captain (Flint) or house head (Snape) allowed it, I think it'd be allowed. Flint would certainly appreciate having a bunch of new brooms and we know that Draco is Snape's favorite student"), but in addition I think that Draco is a good Seeker. I am convinced that in the big match in PoA, Harry only won because he had a better broom. My friend Lee has been forwarding e-mail to me, including one Potter filk and at least two theories about Snape: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Filk: That Drip Potter Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 00:33:37 -0400 From: Sherman Dorn Organization: University of South Florida Newsgroups: rec.music.filk Raise your hands if you love Harry Potter ... or hate him. This one's for you from the perspective of the one character who has constantly been picked on throughout the series thus far in a way that distorts all the good in the man: Severus Snape. (Warning: minor hints of spoilers below.) "That Drip Potter" words and music by Sherman Dorn, 2001 (I capo up half a step, but YMMV.) Am F G Am Harry Potter is the "boy who lived," the famous one we know. Am F G E E7 But few have seen as I have his oversized ego. Am F G Amsus2 The rules he breaks, the risks he takes, as Dumbledore looks past. Am C E Am Only I among his teachers sees the charming spells he's cast. Chorus: Am Em Am (beat) That drip Potter, of whom everyone's so fond. F G E E7 (beat) That drip Potter, the headmaster's been conned by Am F G Am (beat) that drip Potter, I'll save his skin once more. Dm F G G7 He's not the only one who wants the end of Voldemort, Am C E Am and I'll endure his hatred as he walks through Hogwart's doors. Verse 2: His friends are all the favored ones, absolved for all their sins. They cannot see the good that comes from building discipline. But students cannot be so weak when to the world they go. Only I among his teachers see how much he needs to know. Verse 3: When I was just a young lad, I went to Hogwarts, too, and met his dad and his gang, and I learned to hate that crew. With Potter now, he takes a bow, as if we have no sense. Only I among his teachers see beyond the twit's pretense ... to Verse 4: The boy has gone too far too many times, as I have said. It's only through my efforts that he still has his pretty head. It's my business that young wizards will not die from vanity. Only Dumbledore and I know just how much that means to me. Not ... I'll work on getting a score to Brenda for the Gafilk book this year. Sherman Dorn ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gary McGath wrote: > Having read the first three books (to be exact, half of the first in > American, the second in the original English, and the third in German), > I find Snape to be mostly a shallow caricature of the strict teacher > that all the students dislike. Your Snape is quite a bit more > interesting than the one I've seen in Rowling, even if everything he > says in the song is rationalization. I find Snape to be fascinating -- a thoroughly nasty man who, by all indications and for all the reasons we've got, *should* be on the side of Voldemort, but instead is trusted to be on the good side. I have some theories about this. Spoilers... Dumbledore explains at the end of _Prisoner of Azkaban_ that when one wizard saves another wizard's life -- as Harry did for Wormtail, and as James Potter did for Snape -- it "creates a certain bond between them ... [...] This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable." I think that in the confrontation between Voldemort and Harry's parents, Snape was constrained to act against Voldemort. (Note that when the spells from Voldemort's wand are "played back" near the end of _Goblet of Fire_, his attempt to kill Harry isn't seen. Though also note that the killings of Harry's parents seem to be in the wrong order...) This would answer the mystery of how Harry survived a supposedly unblockable curse: he was never struck by it. ("Since the seal is in fact unbeatable, thinking about the seal simply leads to frustration." -- Clark Fries, in Heinlein's _Podkayne of Mars_) So Snape sees Harry taking the credit for something Snape was responsible for. Something Snape never wanted to do in the first place. But he can't talk about it, must keep it a secret... because if any of Voldemort's remaining supporters found out, Snape would be a target for all kinds of revenge. So he has to let Harry take that credit, while still being constrained to protect him. Any plans that Snape may have had for his own power, as an associate of Voldemort, got completely trashed, and he has to keep dealing with that over and over again. Further thoughts, from way too early on a Saturday morning... Voldemort had cast his skin as part of his last transformation. The Potters had obtained the cast skin, probably via Snape, and were working on it to try to use it against Voldemort; this may have included magic to keep it as "part of Voldemort" or that might have been intrinsic to it. While Voldemort attacked James, Lily stuffed Harry into the skin to protect him. When Voldemort sent the death curse at Harry, Harry was shielded by the skin until Voldemort's curse, which was essentially directed at part of himself, destroyed his own power... except where there was a jagged tear in the skin, over Harry's forehead, and a bit of the power leaked through. Some of Voldemort's power/abilities, which were still connected to the skin, became attached to Harry as the skin was destroyed. Professor Trelawney's one previous real prediction, of course, involved Voldemort's downfall because of Harry and/or his parents. -- Joel Polowin jpolowinXYZZy at sympatico.ca but delete "XYZZy" from address The Rohirrim honoured their families and their horses. But even there, it was possible to take things too far; and Eohippus son of Eomund is omitted from most of the genealogies. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Another friend forwarded the following, and it made me LOL: I found this among the disclaimers on a story on alt.sex.stories.moderated: If you are offended by pornography, for god s sake stop reading alt.sex.stories, you idiot. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L egendary A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 06:04:46 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: V's wand, Trap door in PS / SS In-Reply-To: <9lac6p+gelp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010814060446.25646.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24136 --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., j_williams2147043256 at y... > wrote: > > How did the trapdoor > > get shut after Quirrel / Voldemort went through > the tunnel? Isn't it entirely possible that Quirrel didn't open the door all the way and it either fell shut on it's own or Fluffy shut it lunging after him when the music stopped? > Do Snapes potion samples in Fluffy's lair refill > themselves after being consumed? It's possible, but they wouldn't really have to. A person knowing the right potion could summon it to them. In the case of Dumbledore, I wouldn't think he would need the potion at all. > While we are at it, did Dumbledore have to put > Fluffy to sleep....I doubt it, yet if he > could take a shortcut, how come another wizard > couldn't? Dumbledore isn't any old wizard. He is considered the greatest wizard in his time. Why would he need to complete the challenges to get through? Kind of goes with the territory especially since he helped plan all the challenges in the first place and he is the headmaster of the school. ~Bethany __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 06:09:06 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 01:09:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Something New near Bottom and RE: Voldie's Wand - Genetics & Magical Ability - Chapter Summary In-Reply-To: <3B78BE79.FB346DED@wicca.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24137 But in addition I think that Draco is a good Seeker. I am convinced that in the big match in PoA, Harry only won because he had a better broom. One might then wonder how it is possible that Harry, with a broken arm, was able to catch the golden snitch in his mouth when it had been floating right next to Draco?s ear (First Quidditch match in CoS), doesn?t seem like a great seeker to me. :-) Seriously though, I don?t think Draco is much of a player, he?s just Seeker because he wants to show people that he?s better than ?the famous Harry Potter?. I see Draco complaining to Daddy that they made Harry the youngest Seeker in a century and Daddy graciously donating Nimbus 2001?s so that his son can be Seeker too and shut up. Draco does fly decently though JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 06:20:05 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 8 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9lae8h+bt8h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010814062005.81689.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24138 1) Do you think that MWPP have their own drawer in Filch's office? Also if people have their own drawers like that why haven't then been expelled? I guess it would depend on how long Filch has been caretaker...I wouldn't be surprised if they had a couple of drawers. Then again, maybe they just didn't get cought. They didn't get expelled because Filch isn't a member of the administration and can only hand out detentions. The majority of what he considers horrible offences are relatively minor; dripping on the floor,setting off dungbombs, etc. Dumbledore would have final say on any expulsions and I can't see him kicking anyone out unless they did something really terrible. 2) Do you think there might be any significance that Nick died on October 31st, just like Harry's parents? I hadn't really thought about it before. There could be. 3) Do you think all the ghosts at Nick's Deathday party were witches or wizards at one time? When you're a ghost can you be part of the wizarding world even if you were once a Muggle? I think you could be, but ghosts tend to stick around where they know and most Muggles don't know the wizarding world exists. 4) When you read CoS the first time did you wonder why Filch had a KWIKSPELL kit? Did you think he was a Muggle or just a really badwizard? I thought he was a really bad wizard and wondered if that was why he was so cranky. 5) Did you think that Draco had something to with what happened to Mrs. Norris or at least know who did? No, I figured he was to cowardly to be involved although he would relish the idea of people thinking him involved. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From nausicaa at atlantic.net Tue Aug 14 12:51:22 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jenny K.) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 08:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: V's wand, Trap door in PS / SS In-Reply-To: <9lacui+j18l@eGroups.com> References: <9lacui+j18l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <997793482.3b791ecac3b7b@webmail.atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24139 Quoting katzefan at yahoo.com: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., > j_williams2147043256 at y... wrote: > > > > > While we are at it, did Dumbledore have to put > Fluffy to sleep, > > capture the key, and play a chess game before > getting into the > inner > > chamber to rescue Harry? I doubt it, yet if > he could take a > short- > > cut, how come another wizard couldn't? > > > > Marcus It just occurred to me...he may very well have gone through this area before, most likely more than once...otherwise, how did that mirror get from the spare room to the end? Jenny K. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent through Atlantic.Net Webmail. Sign up for fast, reliable dial-up service for only $19.95/mo. Visit www.atlantic.net to learn more. From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 13:29:12 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:29:12 -0000 Subject: Security logic( WAS:Re: V's wand, Trap door in PS / SS) In-Reply-To: <20010814060446.25646.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lb938+3j8c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24140 Marcus: > > While we are at it, did Dumbledore have to put > > Fluffy to sleep....I doubt it, yet if he > > could take a shortcut, how come another wizard > > couldn't? ~Bethany: > Dumbledore isn't any old wizard. He is considered the > greatest wizard in his time. Why would he need to > complete the challenges to get through? Kind of goes > with the territory especially since he helped plan all > the challenges in the first place and he is the > headmaster of the school. > Couple of things. (1)If you make a hole, the bad guys can use the hole. The best you can do is slow them down or convince them the risks are too great. (2) If Dumbledore has this unmatched power to get from point A to point B at Hogwarts, why does he need all the complicated protections that a trio of first year students can breeze through? Why not just place the stone some place where only he can get to using this unduplicated power? If you say, he can't do it because a bad guy might find out how to do it, then we are back to the original question, "How did he get there so fast?" Marcus From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Aug 14 15:02:48 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:02:48 -0000 Subject: Chapter 7 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9la43o+2qt2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lbeio+ddgi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24141 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kristin" wrote: > Hi All~ > > Sorry this is a bit late. Here's the summary for Chapter 7 of CoS. > Chapter 8 will be coming along shortly. Enjoy! :) > > Cheers, > > Kristin "the Queen of Procrastination" > > > Domo danku, Kristin! > > 1)How does Hagrid get away with using his wand? Does Dumbledore > know that Hagrid uses it and just tends to overlook it? What > about the MoM? I think that Dumbledore knows and has pretty much told Hagrid not to do anything overt. Hagrid adores Dumbledore and probably sticks close by his word on this. The reason I'm sure is that Hagrid got "special permission" to do magic to collect Harry in PS/SS. So Dumbledore must've made some arrangements with the MOM. But now that he's been proven innocent, you'd think they'd let him have a new wand. > > 2)Why would Hogwarts allow Draco to buy his way onto the Slytherin > Quidditch team? Are they that afraid of Lucius Malfoy? Or they needed new brooms that badly. Or they needed the wizard money that badly. > > 3)Why do you think Hermione and the other women (with the exception > of McGonagall) can't see what a fraud Lockhart is? Do you think > he uses some sort of charm that only affects females? Nah. Hermione's 12, and pobody's nerfect. McGonagall is a tough cookie who doesn't hold with tomfoolery. > > 4)When you first read CoS, who did you think the mysterious voice > was? I had no idea. > > 5)Why would they let a student keep a broken wand? Doesn't the > staff think it could be dangerous since a broken wand is > unpredictable? Perhaps since Ron was only 2nd year at this point they didn't think the wand could produce any major dangerous effects because the wizard who owned the broken wand didn't know any major dangerous effects himself? From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 14 15:05:25 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:05:25 -0000 Subject: Another trap door question In-Reply-To: <20010814060446.25646.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lbenl+duok@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24142 Has anyone else ever found the concept of a trap door in a third-floor corridor just a bit odd? Try to picture the fall down through the school and into the earth . . . see the problem? There's an answer, though: it's magic! Amy Z From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Aug 14 15:10:32 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:10:32 -0000 Subject: Chapter 7 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <20010814054150.24449.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lbf18+ddlu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24143 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bethany wrote: > > Males aren't the only ones succeptable to the syndrome of "with looks like that, who cares if s/he is capable of speech?" The other explaination is that they are so blinded by the light glinting off of his ever present smile that they can't see/think straight. Then again, maybe he *does* have the same effect on everyone, but it isn't discussed. Sounds like the beginning of a very disturbing slash. Anything involving Lockheart is disturbing... I just had a thought upon reading this. It had bothered me that Hermione and Molly both checked their brains at the door when it came to Gilderoy. Your suggestion gave me an idea: Maybe Lockhart is part [whatever the male equivalent of a Veela is]? Indigo From f95lean at dd.chalmers.se Tue Aug 14 15:25:14 2001 From: f95lean at dd.chalmers.se (Lea Niiniskorpi) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:25:14 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 7 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9lbeio+ddgi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24144 On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Indigo wrote: > > 1)How does Hagrid get away with using his wand? Does Dumbledore > > know that Hagrid uses it and just tends to overlook it? What > > about the MoM? > > I think that Dumbledore knows and has pretty much told Hagrid not to > do anything overt. Hagrid adores Dumbledore and probably sticks close > by his word on this. The reason I'm sure is that Hagrid got "special > permission" to do magic to collect Harry in PS/SS. So Dumbledore > must've made some arrangements with the MOM. > > But now that he's been proven innocent, you'd think they'd let him > have a new wand. But as he haven't done his OWL's he shouldn't be allowed to use magic anyway. Perhaps he could take som classes to became a "legal" wizard. Another thing I've thought about, do you thik we will ever meet Lockhart again? // Lea =================================== f95lean at dd.chalmers.se http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~f95lean/ =================================== From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Aug 14 15:50:18 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:50:18 -0000 Subject: Chapter 8 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9lae8h+bt8h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lbhbq+4sfm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24145 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kristin" wrote: > Hi again~ > > Here's Chapter 8's summary and questions. This is the first time I've > done this so I hope the summaries and questions are okay. Sorry again > for the delay, RL was a bit wonky the last two weeks. > > Cheers, > > Kristin > Danku again! 1) Do you think that MWPP have their own drawer in Filch's office? Also if people have their own drawers like that why haven't then been expelled? I'm not sure Filch was the monitor during the Marauders' time. And I imagine that Dumbledore considers pranks a sign of ingeniuty and original thinking [rather like James T. Kirk's unique way of solving the Kobaiyashi Maru test]. Or, alternately, there is a level of seriousness a prank must reach before a kid is expelled. 2) Do you think there might be any significance that Nick died on October 31st, just like Harry's parents? Only that Voldemort and the DEs were probably out for the world that night, so lots of folks died that night. But Nick died years before V's time, didn't he? 3) Do you think all the ghosts at Nick's Deathday party were witches or wizards at one time? When you're a ghost can you be part of the wizarding world even if you were once a Muggle? Hmm. I never gave this one any thought. I guess if track record is to be believed, all the ghosts we've seen elsewhere in the series: Binns, Cedric, Myrtle, James, Lily -- have all been magic folks. 4) When you read CoS the first time did you wonder why Filch had a KWIKSPELL kit? Did you think he was a Muggle or just a really bad wizard? I was sure he was just a really bad wizard -- and that jealousy/envy of the talented kids is why he's always looking to get them in trouble. 5) Did you think that Draco had something to with what happened to Mrs. Norris or at least know who did? It's possible Draco knew Lucius gave the diary to Ginny, but unlikely. Draco has a tendency to gloat and boast. Lucius might not have entrusted this information to Draco because he'd use it to smirk at Ron and the other Weasleys. From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Aug 14 15:56:46 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:56:46 -0000 Subject: Chapter 7 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lbhnu+mmbi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24146 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Lea Niiniskorpi wrote: > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Indigo wrote: > > > > 1)How does Hagrid get away with using his wand? Does Dumbledore > > > know that Hagrid uses it and just tends to overlook it? What > > > about the MoM? > > > > I think that Dumbledore knows and has pretty much told Hagrid not to > > do anything overt. Hagrid adores Dumbledore and probably sticks close > > by his word on this. The reason I'm sure is that Hagrid got "special > > permission" to do magic to collect Harry in PS/SS. So Dumbledore > > must've made some arrangements with the MOM. > > > > But now that he's been proven innocent, you'd think they'd let him > > have a new wand. > > But as he haven't done his OWL's he shouldn't be allowed to use magic > anyway. Perhaps he could take som classes to became a "legal" wizard. > > Another thing I've thought about, do you thik we will ever meet Lockhart > again? > > // Lea Do we know for a fact that Hagrid hasn't taken equivalency OWLs and/or NEWTs? Dumbledore apparently has been convinced of Hagrid's innocence all along. as for Lockhart? I had a notion about that earlier. Ever see the movie "Regarding Henry?" Lockhart [if they can find a way to sufficiently counteract the memory charm that he can recall longer than 30 seconds] may be a changed man if we see him again. Indigo From catsrock at hotmail.com Tue Aug 14 16:45:29 2001 From: catsrock at hotmail.com (Kavitha Kannan) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:45:29 -0000 Subject: Wands, genetics of magic, and unschooled mages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lbkje+mime@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24147 Wow...I was working on a ff this morning and ran up against the genetic aspect of magic. After sitting and mulling for a few minutes, I just came to the computer to post some ideas, and I found them here! Well, I'll add some thoughts to the Magical Ability Cauldron and give it a stir. OK...I agree that it would appear that the magical gene is dominant, because magical couples tend to have magical bairns...and if it was recessive...well, they wouldn't. Or...twould be a one-in-four chance. But then...why do they have to marry Muggles or die out? Wouldn't the majority of the world be magical in that case? Or do witches and wizards tend to only marry other witches and wizards? (not neccessarily respectively.) Does that keep the gene pool smaller? But then...are they suffering from inbreeding? Was there a bottleneck of magical folk in the past, and did they notice a lot of sickly young children, at which point they used the Divination skills to find the cause? Or maybe twas common sense. But...there's another explaination. Is it possible that the magical gene, whether dominant of recessive, only shows up in someone with a magical genetic inheritence? Could they have an extra gene which allows the possibilty of being magical or having magical children? Genetics isn't my forte, and I have one year of Life Science from seventh grade-which seems a lifetime ago-to go on, but I'll bravely keep writing, and if I'm setting up impossible theories, forgive me, and please, someone explain. I have nothing against learning. Is it possible the magical people are...different? They may not be entirely human, in the sense that we common folk are. So...they may have a seperate gene that determines magical ability, and that gene may not be present in the majority of the population...but then, what would happen when one of these people, be they a practicing Mage or someone with wizarding blood who cannot do magic, marries a normal human? Am I just confusing myself and anyone reading this? Hmmm...*scratches head, trying to clarify her muddled thoughts* What I mean to say is: are magical humans defined by the presence of a genetic abnormality, perhaps one that is magical in nature? Thereby allowing they to circumvent (is that the right word? I think so...) the troubles of two different species breeding. Or are they actually not a different species of homo sapiens, and is the gene that determines magic present in everyone? Or maybe they're similar enough to not have a problem. This assumes that the humans in the Potterverse are the same as humans on this planet, which I think it an acceptable assumption. My next question is: Is it possible for a wizard to not go to wizarding school? The Dursleys' threatening to not let Harry go is the obvious example, but Justin Finch-Fletchley mentioned that his name was down for Eton, but he came here, and his mother was seeing how useful it could be to have a wizard in the family...so on and so forth. Well, could he have gone to Eton? Wouldn't that be dangerous? An unschooled mage who would lose control in moments of extreme emotion, possibly with disasterous consequences? Could it be that during times of extreme trouble for the wizarding world, or times of trouble in the Muggle world as well, some mages would slip out of notice? Maybe during WW2, some of the people fleeing were magical, and this could be especially dangerous for...er...the magical children of Muggles...there, I didn't say the word-which- mustn't-be-spoken-in-polite-company. So, could these people be wandering about, causing tornados or making lightning stirke their neighbor's home? Or something on a smaller scale, probably? Although...maybe not. I would think magical ability would grow as someone aged...and that training, though dead useful for showing how magic can be channeled, doesn't actually contribute to magical power. Or does magical power, if unused, just go away? Is that what happens to people who don't use magic? Next question...why do all the wizards/withces/warlocks in the Potterverse use wands when, historically, they were not considered neccessary? Are they less dangerous for channeling raw power? Or do they channel more power? Or is it just that they look pretty? Perhaps one wizard got the idea, and everyone else developed...er...wand envy? Is a bigger wand better...no, I guess not. But having a wand is considered very cool, right? So its a status symbol? To show the might of wizards and witches the world over? Hmm...arrogant gits. No...they have right. My head'd be too big to fit thtugh doors if I found out I was a witch. *shakes head regretfully* But its too late...unless I wasn't noticed by the local wizarding school...*brightens visibly.* Yes...I'll tell myself that. *nods decisively.* Okay, so...someone tell me, am I just overthinking the genetic stuff due to boredom? Or does my thinking have several logical flaws due to fatigue from taking the cat to the vet at a horribly early hour this morning? Well, at any rate, the Magical Ability Cauldron, as I percieve it, is bubbling and thoughts are threatening to spill out over the edges, so I'll stop. I think I need a pensieve. Head spinning, going off for some nice relxing rocket science...well, actually, for lunch...rocket science is a bit beyond her -Kavitha P.S. Down below is the orignal post, or snippings of it. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > > W H A T M A G I C A L A B I L I T Y I S > > "I am much, much more than a man...." -- CANON EXAMPLES > > What is magical ability? The wizards in HP take the answer to this question > for granted, but, being Muggles, we don't. What wizards do say, however, > gives us a few clues. > > Most wizards speak of magical ability as an inherent talent that appears in > humans in various degrees. We find this out for the first time when Hagrid > informs Harry that he is a wizard: > > ** > "I'm a *what*?" gasped Harry. > "A wizard, o' course," said Hagrid, sitting back down on the sofa, which > groaned and sank even lower, "an' a thumpin' good'un, I'd say, once yeh've > been trained up a bit. With a mum and dad like yours, what else would yeh > be?...." (PS/SS, Ch. 4) > ** > > Which gives us two more clues to the puzzle, that magical ability is > genetically linked, and that the talent can be cultivated to focus the power > of the wizard. > > This is supported by Ron's explanation of the terms "Mudblood" and "Squib" in > CoS. Ron, spouting slugs and indignation, explains Malfoy's insult to > Hermione: > > ** > "It's about the most insulting thing he could think of....Mudblood's a really > foul name for someone who is Muggle-born -- you know, non-magic parents. > There are some wizards -- like Malfoy's family -- who think they're better > than everyone else because they're what people call pure-blood....I mean, the > rest of us know it doesn't make any difference at all. Look at Neville > Longbottom -- he's pure-blood and he can hardly stand a cauldron the right > way up." > "And they haven't invented a spell our Hermione can' do," said Hagrid.... > "It's a disgusting thing to call someone," said Ron, wiping his sweaty brow > with a shaking hand. "Dirty blood, see. Common blood. It's ridiculous. > Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles > we'd've died out." (CoS, Ch. 7) > ** > > And similarly, Ron explains what makes Argus Filch a Squib: > > ** > "Well -- it's not funny really -- but as it's Filch," he said. "A Squib is > someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any magic powers. > Kind of the opposite of Muggle-born wizards, but Squibs are quite unusual. > If Filch's trying to learn magic from a Kwikspell course, I reckon he must be > a Squib. It would explain a lot. Like why he hates students so much." Ron > gave a satisfied smile. "He's bitter." (CoS, Ch. 9) > ** > > This would suggest that the wizarding talent gene is dominant, if apparently > magic-less people produce a wizard and wizards rarely produce anything but > more wizards. According to Ron, Squibs and near-Squibs use such things as > Kwikspell courses in the attempt to make up for what powers they lack, > probably not with much results. Which suggests again that training is meant > to focus and polish magical people's powers, not bring them into being where > they did not exist before. On the other end of the scale, sometimes great > respect is afforded a wizard merely for having a high degree of magical > power, as Sirius explains: > > ** > "He was tipped for the next Minister of Magic," said Sirius. "He's a great > wizard, Barty Crouch [Sr.], powerfully magical -- and power-hungry. Oh never > a Voldemort supporter," he said, reading the look on Harry's face. "No, > Barty Crouch was always very outspoken against the Dark Side...." (GoF, Ch > 27). > ** > > In fact, wizards often place so much more emphasis on the existing power than > the training that many of them consider Muggles a separate species > altogether: "We are all familiar with the extremists who campaign for the > classification of Muggles as 'beasts'," writes Newt Scamander (FB xiii). > > On the other hand, compare Hermione, hugging Harry before his showdown with > Voldemort in PS/SS: > > ** > "Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know." > "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. > "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important > things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be *careful*!" (PS/SS, > Ch. 16) > ** > > According to Hermione, the most important thing about being a great wizard is > not the training or even the power but the sort of person one is in the first > place. Which brings me to the next issue. > > Thus magical ability is a complex component of a human being that is > genetically derived, varying in intensity, and in need of training and focus > like other talents. It commands respect, but according to the wisest heads > ought to be the means to wise living, rather than the end. > > My next post will deal with the subject of Wands and with Harry as the lens > through which we view this subject. I'm also deferring the discussion > questions to that post, but feel free to slice and dice this up too. > > To be continued.... > > Lisa I. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 16:53:29 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Security logic( WAS:Re: V's wand, Trap door in PS / SS) In-Reply-To: <9lb938+3j8c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010814165329.56026.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24148 --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > (1)If you make a hole, the bad guys can use the > hole. The best you > can do is slow them down or convince them the risks > are too great. > (2) If Dumbledore has this unmatched power to get > from point A to > point B at Hogwarts, why does he need all the > complicated protections > that a trio of first year students can breeze > through? Why not just > place the stone some place where only he can get to > using this > unduplicated power? If you say, he can't do it > because a bad guy > might find out how to do it, then we are back to the > original > question, "How did he get there so fast?" > > Marcus > It wouldn't have to be a hole per say, rather another parameter preprogrammed in; a sort of emergency procedure. It may be something similar to the Secret Keeper spell; all the enchantments have a condition that in case of an emergency Dumbledore alone would be able to get through but no one else would know about it and there would be no way to find out unless Albus told them. He would be smart enough to cover all of his bases. Besides, Harry even commented that he thinks Dumbledore wanted him to go through the tasks and save the stone. It is possible that the main purpose of the enchantments was to give the Trio experience and a chance to prove themselves. Rather curious that each of the rooms required a skill that one of the Trio posessed...I know, I know, all the enchantments were done around the same time Harry came to Hogwarts, so how could Dumbledore have known. Well my answer is that he almost always seems to always know what will happen. Perhaps he has a limited sight into the future, I don't know. Then again, having known James he might have merely guessed that Harry would be like his father. ~Bethany __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 17:06:43 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 7 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9lbf18+ddlu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010814170643.98691.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24149 --- Indigo wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bethany > wrote: > > > > > Males aren't the only ones succeptable to the > syndrome of "with looks like that, who cares if s/he > is capable of speech?" The other explaination is > that > they are so blinded by the light glinting off of his > ever present smile that they can't see/think > straight. Then again, maybe he *does* have the same > effect oneveryone, but it isn't discussed. Sounds > like the beginning of a very disturbing slash. > Anything involving Lockheart is disturbing... > > I just had a thought upon reading this. It had > bothered me that Hermione and Molly both checked > their brains at the door when it came to Gilderoy. > Your suggestion gave me an idea: > Maybe Lockhart is part [whatever the male > equivalent of a Veela is]? > > Indigo > I think you have a very interesting idea. It would explain why smart, independent women suddenly fall into all the stereotypes of women and seem to forget their intelligence. I hadn't thought of that possibility before. Maybe his mom was a Veela or something. I like the way you think though. I like you other idea as well: > I had a notion about that earlier. Ever see the > movie "Regarding Henry?" Lockhart [if they can find > a way to sufficiently counteract the memory charm > that he can recall longer than 30 seconds] > may be a changed man if we see him again. >Indigo I've seen that movie. That could be a cool twist to the story. Have him be able to see what he was and become a different person. Maybe he might even show signs of intelligence...another scary thought: Lockheart thinking! Alert the Prophet! That'd be a newsworthy event! ~Bethany __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk Tue Aug 14 12:13:10 2001 From: mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:13:10 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 7 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <20010814054150.24449.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> References: <9la43o+2qt2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010814131101.009fcbb0@pop.freeserve.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24150 At 14/08/01 06:41, you wrote: > 3)Why do you think Hermione and the other women > (with the exception > of McGonagall) can't see what a fraud Lockhart > is? Do you think > he uses some sort of charm that only affects > females? > Thinking about this - Is it probable that Lockhart is a male equivalent of a Veela..? Thinking about what Ron felt and did when Fleur was around and howHermoine was acting around Lockhart makes you think huh??? Martin Hooper AIM: martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 http://www.crosswinds.net/~martinjh99/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 18:26:10 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lockhart + Place They Never Been In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010814182610.84464.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24151 --- Lea Niiniskorpi wrote: >Another thing I've thought about, do >you thik we will ever meet Lockhart >again? In the Connection interview (URL was posted recently), JKR said that currently Lockhart is in St. Mungo's. When asked if we'd see him again, she declared that classified information (which I interpret as Yes). This fits the theory that the place the Trio will go that they've not been yet is St. Mungo's. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From KayandJay1 at MSN.com Tue Aug 14 18:34:09 2001 From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com (KayandJay1 at MSN.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:34:09 -0000 Subject: Hey Everyone! Message-ID: <9lbqv1+ajv6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24152 There is this really cool site. http://nateguy2005.homestead.com/hogwarts~ns4.html Go to it for fun! You can be a Student or Teacher! There are alot of girls on the site. Like only 5 guys. Don't deley term starts Aug 20. For more info E-Mail me @ KayandJay1 at MSN.com. Come join the Fun! Professor Potter From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 19:43:43 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:43:43 -0500 Subject: Magical Genes and Wands In-Reply-To: <9lbkje+mime@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24153 Genes We supposedly suffer mutations every ten generations. Magical ability is likely the result of some mutation that appeared a long time ago. As is the case with mutations, it would only appear in a small amount of people. In fact, it?s quite likely that all magical people can be traced back to a small group of people. Perhaps a village or something like that. It doesn?t make wizards inhuman; they simply possess a different gene. This is quite common; some people have a mutated gene in their fourth chromosome that causes Huntington?s disease. I couldn?t begin to imagine which gene would receive the mutation; perhaps one in the second chromosome. It would simply be a different sequence of letters in the gene?s DNA. Of course, if everyone comes from a limited stock of original wizards, then having wizards breed purely with wizards would end up causing a whole lot of genetic anomalies. Wizards have to breed with muggles. I can?t really explain mudbloods (pardon the term) or squibs. Another possibility is that there is a ?magic gene?. It would be an inactive gene mostly but that in certain people would activate. If your parents had it as an active gene, you have a larger chance of it being active as well, though there?s also a possibility that it won?t be. Wands In Mage: The Ascension from White Wolf Games, Mages need ?foci?. Magic is divided into nine spheres and each mage has a certain affinity with each sphere of magic. Depending on the mage?s magical ability, he/she needs a focus for each sphere. This focus can be pretty much anything, a wand, a crystal, a mirror, etc. It?s a way of channeling and focusing your magic power for use. As you become more powerful, you stop needing foci. I would think that wands in HP serve a similar purpose. The core of the wand is a powerful substance that can draw magic from the user in order to manifest itself in different effects. Perhaps the core attunes itself to a particular wizard?s magical ?frequency? or whatever, explaining why wands can?t really be shared effectively. As the wizard grows in power, wands are needed less for trivial charms and such. I don?t recall seeing Dumbledore use a wand, though I can be mistaken. As for the length of a wand I don?t really see a long wand as being more powerful than a shorter one. I think each wizard simply has a certain wood, length and core through which he/she can best channel magical energy. Perhaps there is in fact some sort of frequency, and certain woods can absorb pre-determined frequencies better. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From natabat at crosswinds.net Tue Aug 14 20:26:26 2001 From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:26:26 -0700 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions Message-ID: <005401c124ff$6a08b320$0101a8c0@hp> No: HPFGUIDX 24154 IIRC, Parseltongues can actually control serpents, right? So, if there was a snake animagus, could a Parseltongue make him do whatever he (the Parseltongue) wanted? Also, (and hopefully this hasn't been discussed too much before) Parseltongue seems to work on dragons. During the first task, the Horntail's head is swaying "like a snake before it's charmer." "'Come on,' Harry hissed, swerving tantalizingly above her, 'come on, come and get me...up you get now...'" And then she rears. What with the snake imagery and the hissing (and obeying), it seems obvious to me that Harry was speaking Parseltongue. But I also think that JKR would have mentioned it in the book, especially since it was only obvious to me upon closer examination. Of course, it's possible that I'm just slow and it went without saying. One last thing. Do you think there is such thing as a Parseltongue for an animal other than serpents? Obviously, it wouldn't be called Parseltongue.... Natalie natabat at crosswinds.net http://www.natabat.barrysworld.net ----- Are the commentators on Hamlet really mad or are they just pretending to be mad? From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Aug 14 20:42:34 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:42:34 -0700 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <9la0ic+c3vj@eGroups.com> References: <9l9v9f+b2ae@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B792ACA.5637.44F8E0C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 24155 On 14 Aug 2001, at 1:57, Bente13 at peoplepc.com wrote: > First American Edition, July 2000. Page 712, second paragraph from the > bottom. "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do > not stand united, there is no hope for any of us." They must have > fixed it later, the way they fixed the Priori Incantatem thing. I > figured it was probably a mistake - a lot of people have trouble with > double negatives - but with the gleam in Dumbledore's eye and all > that... just as well to make sure! Not as crucial, but in the same league is this error near the top of page 325: "[Madame Maxime] wasn't exactly hard to miss." Umm... Shouldn't that be that she *was* hard to miss?? Also this one, top of p. 685: "How did your father subdue you?" said Dumbledore. "The Imperius Curse," Moody said. But this is *Crouch* speaking! Are these errors corrected in the later printings? -- Dave From draco at antisocial.com Tue Aug 14 20:49:04 2001 From: draco at antisocial.com (bitchboy) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:49:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Genes and Wands Message-ID: <63342001821420494107@antisocial.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24156 you know, i hadn't thought about magic being a genetic thing.. that's entirely possible. i always reasoned that the difference between magical and non-magical people would have to be a basic difference in brain chemistry (which goes back to your gene theory!), occuring mostly on the left side, which is logicality and math. typical humans only use 10% of their brain, so wizards must use a higher percentage than that. in essence, i think all wizards are math geniuses. if you'll notice in the books, math isn't an offered class at hogwrts. this is because, i believe, they don't need it. i don't know how many of you reading this are into physics at all, but scientists are begining to suggest that matter bends to the expectation of the human mind; thus, we all form our own lives and realities based on our perceptions. dually, if someone posessed a remarkale understanding of all of this, wouldn't it be possible for them to use their mind to direct their *own* energy outward in the form of magic? everything in life, our bodies - the chairs we sit on - is made up of energy - particles of matter that vibrate of a certain frequency, making them substancial, making them touchable. if this knowledge was somehow naturally in a wizard's brain, then he could use that knowledge and direct energy at will (with aid of their wands, acting as a conducter). ::shrugs:: that's my thoughts. bitchboi ---------------------------------------------- Original Message From: "Alfredo Ramrez" Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Genes and Wands Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:43:43 -0500 > Genes > >We supposedly suffer mutations every ten generations. Magical ability is >likely the result of some mutation that appeared a long time ago. As is the >case with mutations, it would only appear in a small amount of people. In >fact, its quite likely that all magical people can be traced back to a >small group of people. Perhaps a village or something like that. It doesnt >make wizards inhuman; they simply possess a different gene. This is quite >common; some people have a mutated gene in their fourth chromosome that >causes Huntingtons disease. I couldnt begin to imagine which gene would >receive the mutation; perhaps one in the second chromosome. It would simply >be a different sequence of letters in the genes DNA. > >Of course, if everyone comes from a limited stock of original wizards, then >having wizards breed purely with wizards would end up causing a whole lot of >genetic anomalies. Wizards have to breed with muggles. I cant really >explain mudbloods (pardon the term) or squibs. > >Another possibility is that there is a magic gene. It would be an inactive >gene mostly but that in certain people would activate. If your parents had >it as an active gene, you have a larger chance of it being active as well, >though theres also a possibility that it wont be. > >Wands > >In Mage: The Ascension from White Wolf Games, Mages need foci. Magic is >divided into nine spheres and each mage has a certain affinity with each >sphere of magic. Depending on the mages magical ability, he/she needs a >focus for each sphere. This focus can be pretty much anything, a wand, a >crystal, a mirror, etc. Its a way of channeling and focusing your magic >power for use. As you become more powerful, you stop needing foci. > >I would think that wands in HP serve a similar purpose. The core of the wand >is a powerful substance that can draw magic from the user in order to >manifest itself in different effects. Perhaps the core attunes itself to a >particular wizards magical frequency or whatever, explaining why wands >cant really be shared effectively. As the wizard grows in power, wands are >needed less for trivial charms and such. I dont recall seeing Dumbledore >use a wand, though I can be mistaken. > >As for the length of a wand I dont really see a long wand as being more >powerful than a shorter one. I think each wizard simply has a certain wood, >length and core through which he/she can best channel magical energy. >Perhaps there is in fact some sort of frequency, and certain woods can >absorb pre-determined frequencies better. > >JB > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >_______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > >Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteT IPS.htm > >You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based >essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > >For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > >Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Aug 14 21:24:19 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:24:19 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <3B792ACA.5637.44F8E0C@localhost> Message-ID: <9lc4u3+qr73@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24157 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" wrote: > On 14 Aug 2001, at 1:57, Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > First American Edition, July 2000. Page 712, second paragraph from the > > bottom. "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do > > not stand united, there is no hope for any of us." They must have > > fixed it later, the way they fixed the Priori Incantatem thing. I > > figured it was probably a mistake - a lot of people have trouble with > > double negatives - but with the gleam in Dumbledore's eye and all > > that... just as well to make sure! > > Not as crucial, but in the same league is this error near the top of > page 325: > > "[Madame Maxime] wasn't exactly hard to miss." > > Umm... Shouldn't that be that she *was* hard to miss?? No! Madame Maxine is [presumably] at least part Giant. She's NOT hard to miss! She's quite big! > > Also this one, top of p. 685: > > "How did your father subdue you?" said Dumbledore. > "The Imperius Curse," Moody said. > > But this is *Crouch* speaking! > Yes, but he looked like Moody to all viewers, so even if we know he's Crouch, we're "seeing" Moody. Those are, at least, my takes on it. From catz109 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 14 21:30:48 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:30:48 -0000 Subject: Lily's Secret Message-ID: <9lc5a8+gt0s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24158 Ok, this might sound stupid, but we are supposed to find out something about Lily in a future book. Do you think she could have been having a baby when Voldy killed her? Harry won't know, because she might not have told anybody at that time, or they don't want to upset him. From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 14 21:52:13 2001 From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:52:13 -0000 Subject: Magical Genes and Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lc6id+3rql@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24159 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alfredo Ram?rez wrote: > Genes > > We supposedly suffer mutations every ten generations. Magical ability is likely the result of some mutation that appeared a long time ago. As is the case with mutations, it would only appear in a small amount of people. In fact, it's quite likely that all magical people can be traced back to a small group of people. Perhaps a village or something like that. It doesn't make wizards inhuman; they simply possess a different gene. This is quite common; some people have a mutated gene in their fourth chromosome that causes Huntington's disease. I couldn't begin to imagine which gene would > receive the mutation; perhaps one in the second chromosome. It would simply be a different sequence of letters in the gene's DNA. > > Of course, if everyone comes from a limited stock of original wizards, then having wizards breed purely with wizards would end up causing a whole lot of genetic anomalies. Wizards have to breed with muggles. I can't really explain mudbloods (pardon the term) or squibs. > > Another possibility is that there is a `magic gene'. It would be an inactive gene mostly but that in certain people would activate. If your parents had it as an active gene, you have a larger chance of it being active as well, though there's also a possibility that it won't be. > I just wanted to add my two knuts to this topic. As a huge X-Men fan I am quite interested in the idea of genetic mutations, and altho' I'm not entirely sure if any of the theory has a basis in scientic reality I felt that there were some parallels here. Present in our DNA are a lot of genes which have no apparent purpose - the mutant 'science' suggests that this 'junk' DNA can change to incorporate active genes (such as the mutant 'X-Factor'), therefore, in the Potterverse those with wizarding ability have a similar gene which gives magical ability. Because this can be a spontaneous mutation as well as an inherited one it explains . Also, the idea of Squibs appears in X-Men too, in the form of Graydon Creed (son of two Alpha class mutants) who formed the Friends Of Humanity - an anti- mutant organisation... at least Filch never took his bitterness to such an extreme. Hoping this hasn't gone too far OT. Aleks From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Aug 14 22:44:23 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 00:44:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Genes and Wands In-Reply-To: <63342001821420494107@antisocial.com> Message-ID: <20010814224423.87129.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24160 --- bitchboy ha scritto: > typical humans only use 10% of their brain, so > wizards must use a higher > percentage than that. NOT Gilderoy Lockhart, though!!!! Susanna/pigwidgeon37 > > >_______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > > >Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read > our netiquette tips at > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteT > IPS.htm > > > >You should also read the Very Frequently Asked > Questions file (VFAQ) at > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based > >essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > > >For more details or help, contact your personal > List Elf or the Moderator > Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > > >Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________ > Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! > http://www.MyOwnEmail.com > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read > our netiquette tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked > Questions file (VFAQ) at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List > Elf or the Moderator Team at > hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Tue Aug 14 23:00:24 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:00:24 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <3B792ACA.5637.44F8E0C@localhost> Message-ID: <9lcai8+oju7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24161 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" wrote: > > Not as crucial, but in the same league is this error near the top of > page 325: > > "[Madame Maxime] wasn't exactly hard to miss." > > Umm... Shouldn't that be that she *was* hard to miss?? > -- Dave It most certainly should. She was hard to miss, or, to put it differently, it was difficult to avoid seeing her. Good for you! Bente From mindyatime at juno.com Tue Aug 14 23:06:23 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:06:23 -0400 Subject: Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World Message-ID: <20010814.190632.-183923.2.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24162 I am still quite perplexed by the entire premise of JKR's books. Granted, I know that they are fantasy and all, but still, realistically I still have a lot of unsettling doubts. There is a series of books, THE MENNYMS, by Sylvia Waugh, in which a family of rag dolls must try their darndest to keep their existence a secret from humans. It's actually a fantastic series, and the family manages quite well. But, here it's only ONE family... I don't understand how an entire POPULATION, an entire WORLD, can manage to always, always, keep their existence a secret. Don't they EVER have to go out in the 'real' world for some thing or other? Do they live in exclusive villages like Hogsmeade, or if they're scattered around London, etc., don't the Muggles notice them? Do you mean to tell me, that the big government of England, for instance, has never noticed this huge unusual population? Isnt' there a census or something? Doesn't every citizen have to pay taxes or whatever? You can't just be a 'non-entity'. You exist, and you live in this world, and people are bound to notice you. They are not entirely invisible. The government of England would know if a 'village' of such exists, and if they live mixed, then they are certainly due to pay taxes or whatever. And then again their are fire inspections and other government - related things you can't wiggle out of. It smacks extremely unrealistic and improbable that the wizarding existence is totally unnoticed. All it takes is one person to discover it, which leads to one magazine article describing it, which leads to one television special, and the secrt is out! Now, the Wizards do not have electricity. but they do have plumbing. (Btw, how do they wash their laundry without wash machines?) And let's say their toilet breaks down. Do they have their 'own' plumbers, so that they don't have to call the Muggle plumbers, etc.? And when something like this DOES happen, since the Wizards are totally inept in anything Muggle-related, won't their existence suddenly be crystal clear? Say for instance, that a nosy neighbor, or a meter reader, or a survey taker, knocks on their door. Doesn't a Muggle knocking on a Wizard's door, notice that this house is somehow different? No electricity, no lights? How does a Wizard deal with a Muggle, when it comes to it, if he is so inept in Muggle things? Why, if there are Muggle studies in school, dont' we ever read about them? Why is Arthur so excited about 'eklectricity' -- don't they learn about it in Muggle studies? Do these Wizards think they're so smart, knowing curses and potions and charms, when they know absolutely zero about the world around them -- biology, science, technology, etc.? Also, I dont' think it's legal to live with a telephone. How, can the Wizards contact an ambulance, policeman, or fireman in case of an emergency? Do they even HAVE an emergency squad? Or are wizards so magical that they can worm their way out of any emergency -- fire, burglary, and illness? What if Ginny Weasley went to buy a new dress robe, and couldn't decide which color. She can't owl her mother and wait two days in the store for an answer! Why dont they have cell phones or public phones or something? Even the Amish have public phones! Don't the Wizards ever have to come in contact with Muggles for survival? And when they do, they are totally unprepared. Look what happened at the world cup -- Arthur couldn't even count money. When they have to travel, what to they do? How does Charlie come in from Egypt all the time? Flying broomsticks all the way to Egypt? They DO take the train, though -- the Hogwarts Express. If they walk around dressed up in robes on the street all the time, aren't they immediately visible? Are they all in Muggle clothing when they go to the train station? Don't the people working at the railway station notice something weird? How do Wizards manage to marry Muggles if the Muggle world is so foreign and even contemptuous to Wizards? What if the Wizard cant convince the Muggle what a lovely world Wizarding is, and the Muggle insists on using microwave ovens and watching television even though she is married to a wizard? Does a muggle married to a wizard sever all her ties with her old world, so as not to betray the secrets of her spouse? Look at Lily Potter for instance -- her sister knew full well she was a witch. Did Lily have to sever all ties with her friends and mother etcetra, because she now belonged to this 'other' world? What about people like Hermione's parents? How much do they know of what wizarding is? What does it feel like for Hermione to walk back into a Muggle home at the end of term, with the computers and Nintendos when she is a Wizard in training and possesses 'different' powers? What if a wizard marries a muggle and the muggle life is so enticing, he decides to leave the wizarding world and become a muggle? Doesnt he take all the secrets with him - -and can expose them to the world in one instant? Additionally, I don't know how the Muggle kids survive without the electronic pastimes out kids can't be without. No TV. No movies. No computers. No electronic games. No Nintendo. It is highly unrealistic to expect all of the Wizarding kiddies to sit and read or play card games all day. What a highly boring life. Why would a child want to have such a life when there is such an exciting electronic life out there? Another question that perturbs me is the apparent pride of being wizard, and the knocking down of the Muggles. It smacks reminiscent of the Third Reich-- WE are the master race, and THEY, are just lowly Muggles. Mind you, there are several billion muggles living in this world, and only a few thousand Wizards who are not known, and hardly know each other. Another question I have, is how they manage to support themselves with only magical jobs. There are only so many people who can work for the Ministry, and only so many people who can have shops in Hogsmeade. What if someone wants to be a doctor? A lawyer? A scientist? There are no schools of that sort in the Wizarding World, are there? What happens when a witch gives birth? Goes only to the St. Mungo hospital? Never to the Muggle hospital? About schooling -- I don't understand why such simple subjects such as making objects fly and flying on brooms are only taught at age eleven. what did the kids do until then? Went to regular Muggle school? Ginny was a teeny kid when Charlie was already disapparating and her father was traveling by Floo Powder. Do you mean to say that she didnt catch on to any of the spells and charms her family was using? She had to stay in chains and wait eleven years to start training to live the life her family lives every day? Also, what can be taught in seven full years already? don't these teachers run out of materials? How many potions, magical creatures, curses, spells, charms and potions can they come up with? I think this can all be taught in two or three years. SEVEN years worth of learning material? And what are they learning? Just to be THEMSELVES? Just to learn to be a wizard -- as opposed to WHAT? As opposed to being a muggle? They know NOTHING about muggles! Isn't the wizarding life, the life they are living every day? They have to LEARN about it -- ad nauseum, ad infinitum? The very base of the idea of the Wizarding World perturbs me. I don't quite understand how the relationship between the Wizarding and the Muggle world works itself out. I have so many questions. These are just half of them. I will write more later. I hope this sparks a lively discussion. MINDY From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Tue Aug 14 23:12:55 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:12:55 -0000 Subject: DADA teachers Message-ID: <9lcb9n+7dil@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24163 I have a question about something that you guys may have discussed at length previously, but I'll risk it anyway.... We've heard, in practically every book so far, that Snape seriously covets the DADA position (although, in all fairness, not from Snape himself). We have also been told, a couple of times, that it's a hard position to fill. In CoS, Hagrid says that Gilderoy Lockhart was the only (on'y) applicant, and in PoA it is likely that Lupin was one of very few, as Dumbledore probably wouldn't have been allowed to hire him if there was someone else who could have been hired instead. (Unless, of course, Dumbledore wanted Lupin there specifically because of the connection he had with Sirius, but that seems unlikely, as all the arrangements would have had to have been made in the short couple of weeks between Sirius' escape and the start of term.) And of course Moody (the real one) was only supposed to teach for one year because Dumbledore wanted an Auror at Hogwarts during the Triwizard Tournament. Anyway, my point is this: if Snape wants it so badly, and if it's hard to find anyone else who does, do you suppose there is a reason why Dumbledore doesn't just give it to him and finds someone else to teach Potions? The DADA position is rumored to be jinxed, but the Potions one isn't, so presumably it would be easier to find someone else for that. Like I said, you may have had long and satisfying discussions about this already, before my time, but give the newbie a break and let me know what you think! Bente From cimorene21 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 14 23:31:57 2001 From: cimorene21 at hotmail.com (cimorene21 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:31:57 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Genes and Wands In-Reply-To: <20010814224423.87129.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lccdd+fg17@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24164 Heya! I'm a newbie... *hides* This is really an amazing list-- a giant volume, and nearly all of it's intelligent conversation! Thrilling! So. (Actually, according to my psych professor at any rate, humans use ALL of their brains, but we've only figured out about 10% of which areas correspond to which function). On the genetic thing-- it would make sense that the ability to perform magic is genetic, but-- there's something about it that just doesn't work. I've spent a lot of time puzzling it out-- and what with the information Rowling gives us, magic doesn't fit into Mendelian genetics: let's say there IS a gene for magic. Is it recessive or dominant? Given the phenomenon of "mudbloods"-- children with a trait that neither of their parents have-- it would HAVE to be a recessive gene, or it would have expressed itself in one or both parents. Assuming that it's a recessive gene, though, squibs shouldn't exist-- if it's recessive, then in order for the trait to manifest isself in the person't phenotype, they'd have to be homozygous-- which means that they wouldn't be able to transfer the dominant (nonmagical) gene to their kids. Oh the other hand, it might not be so simple as straight genetics: I think being a squib might be analogous to being a hermaphrodite. Hermaphroditity doesn't result from too few or many X/Y chromosomes: hermaphrodites are genetically male or female, but something went wrong during development that didn't allow the genes to manifest properly. This would be in perfect accord with the idea of witches/wizards having different brain chemistry.... yeah. Heh. From draco at antisocial.com Tue Aug 14 23:44:06 2001 From: draco at antisocial.com (bitchboy) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:44:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World Message-ID: <184672001821423446982@antisocial.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24165 mindy, have you *read* these books at all? every single queston that you have just railed off has been explained, answered and then explained some more. wizards have their own currency - their own social systems. they don't need to rely on muggles - magic takes care of most of the hypotheticals you posed: plumbing, electricity and emergency services. the colour of a dress can be altered through magic. as for muggles not knowing about / noticing them; i thought that HAD to have been the most obvious thing about the books. it's an escape from the mundane. most muggles are too caught up in their cars, their bills, and what's on tv to notice them. it's beyond their comprehension, that something so fantastical and different could exsist without needing them or having them knowing it even was. and sure, muggles know about wizards, but, as i said above, it's not commonly thought of as real. fairy tales? hello? as for wizarding children not having televisions and video games and other things to provide them with mindnumbing, thoughtless entertainment - it's a matter of social pre-conditioning. muggle children GROW UP with these contraptions, while wizard kids to do not. how can you miss what you never had? personally i'd rather have my kids read or draw or cast spells than sit in front of a box, getting fat and shooting people with a pretend gun all day (videogames). wizards don't need muggle society, and yet, as i'm reading this rant you've written, you can't seem to concieve of a world that *doesn't* need muggle society. open your mind, man ---------------------------------------------- Original Message From: "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:06:23 -0400 >I am still quite perplexed by the entire premise of JKR's books. Granted, >I know that they are fantasy and all, but still, realistically I still >have a lot of unsettling doubts. > >There is a series of books, THE MENNYMS, by Sylvia Waugh, in which a >family of rag dolls must try their darndest to keep their existence a >secret from humans. It's actually a fantastic series, and the family >manages quite well. But, here it's only ONE family... I don't understand >how an entire POPULATION, an entire WORLD, can manage to always, always, >keep their existence a secret. Don't they EVER have to go out in the >'real' world for some thing or other? Do they live in exclusive villages >like Hogsmeade, or if they're scattered around London, etc., don't the >Muggles notice them? Do you mean to tell me, that the big government of >England, for instance, has never noticed this huge unusual population? >Isnt' there a census or something? Doesn't every citizen have to pay >taxes or whatever? You can't just be a 'non-entity'. You exist, and you >live in this world, and people are bound to notice you. They are not >entirely invisible. The government of England would know if a 'village' >of such exists, and if they live mixed, then they are certainly due to >pay taxes or whatever. And then again their are fire inspections and >other government - related things you can't wiggle out of. It smacks >extremely unrealistic and improbable that the wizarding existence is >totally unnoticed. All it takes is one person to discover it, which leads >to one magazine article describing it, which leads to one television >special, and the secrt is out! > >Now, the Wizards do not have electricity. but they do have plumbing. >(Btw, how do they wash their laundry without wash machines?) And let's >say their toilet breaks down. Do they have their 'own' plumbers, so that >they don't have to call the Muggle plumbers, etc.? And when something >like this DOES happen, since the Wizards are totally inept in anything >Muggle-related, won't their existence suddenly be crystal clear? Say for >instance, that a nosy neighbor, or a meter reader, or a survey taker, >knocks on their door. Doesn't a Muggle knocking on a Wizard's door, >notice that this house is somehow different? No electricity, no lights? >How does a Wizard deal with a Muggle, when it comes to it, if he is so >inept in Muggle things? Why, if there are Muggle studies in school, dont' >we ever read about them? Why is Arthur so excited about 'eklectricity' -- >don't they learn about it in Muggle studies? Do these Wizards think >they're so smart, knowing curses and potions and charms, when they know >absolutely zero about the world around them -- biology, science, >technology, etc.? > >Also, I dont' think it's legal to live with a telephone. How, can the >Wizards contact an ambulance, policeman, or fireman in case of an >emergency? Do they even HAVE an emergency squad? Or are wizards so >magical that they can worm their way out of any emergency -- fire, >burglary, and illness? What if Ginny Weasley went to buy a new dress >robe, and couldn't decide which color. She can't owl her mother and wait >two days in the store for an answer! Why dont they have cell phones or >public phones or something? Even the Amish have public phones! > >Don't the Wizards ever have to come in contact with Muggles for survival? >And when they do, they are totally unprepared. Look what happened at the >world cup -- Arthur couldn't even count money. When they have to travel, >what to they do? How does Charlie come in from Egypt all the time? Flying >broomsticks all the way to Egypt? They DO take the train, though -- the >Hogwarts Express. If they walk around dressed up in robes on the street >all the time, aren't they immediately visible? Are they all in Muggle >clothing when they go to the train station? Don't the people working at >the railway station notice something weird? > >How do Wizards manage to marry Muggles if the Muggle world is so foreign >and even contemptuous to Wizards? What if the Wizard cant convince the >Muggle what a lovely world Wizarding is, and the Muggle insists on using >microwave ovens and watching television even though she is married to a >wizard? Does a muggle married to a wizard sever all her ties with her old >world, so as not to betray the secrets of her spouse? Look at Lily Potter >for instance -- her sister knew full well she was a witch. Did Lily have >to sever all ties with her friends and mother etcetra, because she now >belonged to this 'other' world? What about people like Hermione's >parents? How much do they know of what wizarding is? What does it feel >like for Hermione to walk back into a Muggle home at the end of term, >with the computers and Nintendos when she is a Wizard in training and >possesses 'different' powers? What if a wizard marries a muggle and the >muggle life is so enticing, he decides to leave the wizarding world and >become a muggle? Doesnt he take all the secrets with him - -and can >expose them to the world in one instant? > >Additionally, I don't know how the Muggle kids survive without the >electronic pastimes out kids can't be without. No TV. No movies. No >computers. No electronic games. No Nintendo. It is highly unrealistic to >expect all of the Wizarding kiddies to sit and read or play card games >all day. What a highly boring life. Why would a child want to have such a >life when there is such an exciting electronic life out there? > >Another question that perturbs me is the apparent pride of being wizard, >and the knocking down of the Muggles. It smacks reminiscent of the Third >Reich-- WE are the master race, and THEY, are just lowly Muggles. Mind >you, there are several billion muggles living in this world, and only a >few thousand Wizards who are not known, and hardly know each other. > >Another question I have, is how they manage to support themselves with >only magical jobs. There are only so many people who can work for the >Ministry, and only so many people who can have shops in Hogsmeade. What >if someone wants to be a doctor? A lawyer? A scientist? There are no >schools of that sort in the Wizarding World, are there? What happens when >a witch gives birth? Goes only to the St. Mungo hospital? Never to the >Muggle hospital? > >About schooling -- I don't understand why such simple subjects such as >making objects fly and flying on brooms are only taught at age eleven. >what did the kids do until then? Went to regular Muggle school? Ginny was >a teeny kid when Charlie was already disapparating and her father was >traveling by Floo Powder. Do you mean to say that she didnt catch on to >any of the spells and charms her family was using? She had to stay in >chains and wait eleven years to start training to live the life her >family lives every day? Also, what can be taught in seven full years >already? don't these teachers run out of materials? How many potions, >magical creatures, curses, spells, charms and potions can they come up >with? I think this can all be taught in two or three years. SEVEN years >worth of learning material? And what are they learning? Just to be >THEMSELVES? Just to learn to be a wizard -- as opposed to WHAT? As >opposed to being a muggle? They know NOTHING about muggles! Isn't the >wizarding life, the life they are living every day? They have to LEARN >about it -- ad nauseum, ad infinitum? > >The very base of the idea of the Wizarding World perturbs me. I don't >quite understand how the relationship between the Wizarding and the >Muggle world works itself out. I have so many questions. These are just >half of them. I will write more later. I hope this sparks a lively >discussion. > > >MINDY > >_______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > >Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteT IPS.htm > >You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based >essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > >For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > >Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 14 23:46:09 2001 From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:46:09 -0000 Subject: Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <20010814.190632.-183923.2.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lcd81+rpuu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24166 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > I am still quite perplexed by the entire premise of JKR's books. Granted, I know that they are fantasy and all, but still, realistically I still have a lot of unsettling doubts. Wow, this is a long post, with a lot of questions. I'm not even going to attempt to answer all of them, but I'll have a go at the ones which seem most obvious to me. Firstly, you say: > > But, here it's only ONE family... I don't understand > how an entire POPULATION, an entire WORLD, can manage to always, always, keep their existence a secret. Don't they EVER have to go out in the 'real' world for some thing or other? Do they live in exclusive villages like Hogsmeade, or if they're scattered around London, etc., don't the Muggles notice them? Do you mean to tell me, that the big government of England, for instance, has never noticed this huge unusual population? Well, we can assume from comments made in PoA that the British government does know of the existence of this community as Fudge is quoted in the Daily Prophet as having informed the Muggle Prime Minister of Black's escape. Also, the existence of the Ministry of Magic suggests that the government knows. I assumed from the name that it was just another government ministry like Ministry of Defence etc, why else would it be called a 'ministry', also Fudge is the 'Minister for Magic' so presumably in the Cabinet. > Isnt' there a census or something? Doesn't every citizen have to pay > taxes or whatever? You can't just be a 'non-entity'. You exist, and you live in this world, and people are bound to notice you. They are not entirely invisible. The government of England would know if a 'village' of such exists, and if they live mixed, then they are certainly due to pay taxes or whatever. And then again their are fire inspections and other government - related things you can't wiggle out of. Following on from my previous point there would then be no reason for witches/ wizards not to: appear on a census, pay taxes etc. All it takes is one person to discover it, which leads > to one magazine article describing it, which leads to one television > special, and the secrt is out! > > Why, if there are Muggle studies in school, dont' we ever read about them? Why is Arthur so excited about 'eklectricity' -- > don't they learn about it in Muggle studies? Do these Wizards think > they're so smart, knowing curses and potions and charms, when they know absolutely zero about the world around them -- biology, science, > technology, etc.? This is the second thing you bring up that interests me: Muggle Studies is an optional class that students can take starting in the 3rd year. Possibly very few students take this option. Of course, it seems odd that someone like Arthur Weasley with such an interest in muggles wouldn't have taken it but maybe it is a recent addition to the curriculum. As for knowing nothing about biology, science etc is there any need for them too? Why should they have to learn about things that are not relevant to the wizarding world, things that won;t affect their lives? > > Also, I dont' think it's legal to live with a telephone. How, can the > Wizards contact an ambulance, policeman, or fireman in case of an > emergency? Do they even HAVE an emergency squad? Or are wizards so > magical that they can worm their way out of any emergency -- fire, > burglary, and illness? I'm presuming here that you meant 'live without a telephone' in which case it is perfectly legal to do so and I know people who do. If anyone needs to contact them they phone a neighbour who has a phone or visit them directly. Also, it seems that witches/ wizards can negate the effects of fires (Wendolin the Weird comes to mind) and they are capable of healing injuries w/o the use of muggle medicenes etc so they wouldn't need to use muggle emergency services. > > Additionally, I don't know how the Muggle kids survive without the > electronic pastimes out kids can't be without. No TV. No movies. No > computers. No electronic games. No Nintendo. It is highly unrealistic to expect all of the Wizarding kiddies to sit and read or play card games all day. What a highly boring life. Why would a child want to have such a life when there is such an exciting electronic life out there? > I think this comes from us living in the Muggle world, of course those from Muggle families probably do miss computers, TV etc but wizarding children know no better. If I didn't have a computer would that mean that I had a boring life? I managed to entertain myself as a child w/o a computer or electronic games - I'm sure wizarding children have as much imagination as I do and are perfectly capable of entertaining themselves. It is arrogant to assume that because you or I have these electronic gadgets that everybody else would need or even want them. > > I have so many questions. These are just > half of them. I will write more later. I hope this sparks a lively > discussion. > > > MINDY Well, there's my attempt at answering some of your burning questions, hope this helps. Aleks From j_williams2147043256 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 23:55:26 2001 From: j_williams2147043256 at yahoo.com (j_williams2147043256 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:55:26 -0000 Subject: Lupin's brief / suitcase Message-ID: <9lcdpe+u068@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24167 In POA when Harry, Ron, and Hermione enter the train compartment thatt Lupin was sleeping in they (Harry and Ron) were debating who this mysterious sstranger was when Hermione in her usual manner points out that the man is "Professor R.J. Lupin" It has been stated in many canons that Lupin has found very little paying work over the years because of his monthly werewolf stints.... So where was he a professor? Or did he perhaps make the tag for his bag? I don't see Lupin saying to himself "what I really need is to have a tag on my bag that says PROFESSOR R.J. Lupin" Just a thought. Jesse From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 14 23:58:03 2001 From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:58:03 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <9lcai8+oju7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lcdub+5sb0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24168 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" wrote: > > > Not as crucial, but in the same league is this error near the top > of > > page 325: > > > > "[Madame Maxime] wasn't exactly hard to miss." > > > > Umm... Shouldn't that be that she *was* hard to miss?? > > -- Dave > > > It most certainly should. She was hard to miss, or, to put it > differently, it was difficult to avoid seeing her. Good for you! > > Bente I'm not sure where any of you are from so maybe this is just an english thing, but I would say, for example that she 'wasn't exactly hard to miss', and I know that plenty of the people I know would too. It might not be grammatically correct, (I'm not sure, you've got me confused now) but it is in common usage. From linman6868 at aol.com Wed Aug 15 00:01:42 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:01:42 EDT Subject: Wands and Magical Ability, Part Two Message-ID: <47.f568e14.28ab15e6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24169 W H A T W A N D S A R E Well, the good thing about being so slow to follow up is that other people come up with cool ways to say what I'd been going to say. Thanks to the people who posted on Wands and Genetic Magical Ability in the past 24 hours - good stuff! And thanks to Rita for pointing me right about the dominant/recessive slip. :) Discussion questions are embedded in the text. STUFF FROM CANON: WAND IDIOSYNCRASY AND POWER The best place to get information on wands, of course, is from Mr. Ollivander, the premier British wandmaker. He explains to Harry on his first visit to Diagon Alley that his mother's wand was a "nice wand for charm work," while his father's had "a little more power and excellent for transfiguration." He gives Hagrid the third-degree stare when Hagrid tells him that he's still got the pieces of his snapped wand, but doesn't use them. Then he tells Harry, "Every Ollivander wand has a core of a powerful magical substance, Mr. Potter. We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers, and the heartstrings of dragons. No two Ollivander wands are the same, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are the same. And of course, you will never get such good results with another wizard's wand." (PS/SS, Ch. 5). The wand also chooses the wizard; so clearly a wizard's wand has some sort of magical affinity with the personality of its owner. James Potter, the Animagus, has a wand that is good for Transfiguration; Lily Potter's wand (and presumably Lily) is best at Charms. Ollivander doesn't tell Harry what his wand is best for?but he does tell him that it shares its magical substance with Lord Voldemort's. Does this mean that features of Harry's personality are like Tom Riddle's? This is a question that haunts him in CoS; and it never got fully answered, despite Dumbledore's reassurances that Harry belongs in Gryffindor. Some listmembers think this is a clue to Harry's unrevealed relationship to Voldemort, but no one knows what the clue actually signifies. Any fresh guesses? Hermione tells us in GoF that it is magical law that only wizards can carry and use wands; she wants to change it so that house-elves can use them too. However, is it clear that house-elves need a wand? Dobby sent Lucius Malfoy down a staircase with one finger, and can pull appearances and disappearances that are not hindered by the no-Apparition barrier at Hogwarts. In CoS, as they rescue Harry from the Dursleys, the twins explain that house-elves have great magical power, but can't usually use it without their masters' permission. If a house-elf were to use a wand, would it have greater results than that of a wizard? Or is it merely that the characteristics of house-elf/wizard magic differ laterally? After all, Winky's claim for not using the wand is that she doesn't know how. There has been much speculation about Ron's wand in CoS. It gets broken during his and Harry's tumultuous arrival at Hogwarts by flying car, and throughout the book backfires on him, causing throbbing green boils, purple bubbles, whistles, slug burping, and other mishaps, before finally exploding when Lockhart tries to Obliviate them with it. So why does it do this, when Hagrid's wand seems to work for him okay? Several answers have been suggested for this, among them being that Hagrid's wand is actually his own whereas Ron's is a hand-me-down in the first place; Hagrid's had lots of time to practice and make a truce with his broken wand; it's a Flint; it's a natural anomaly; etc. Or, I wonder, is Ron's wand just showing that like most Weasley things and people, it's characterized by longsuffering about to explode? Some people have posted about wands being used as a focus, or a lens, for the wizard's power; and clearly they serve some function of the sort. Harry believes that his biggest disadvantage in his fight with Tom Riddle down in the Chamber of Secrets is that Riddle has taken his wand; in the fight in the Shrieking Shack, the fortunes similarly follow the people who can cast Expelliarmus fast enough. When Harry loses his wand in the Death Eaters' riot after the Quidditch World Cup in GoF, he feels naked. Examples of people not using wands include Animagus transformations (although it's not explained how the original spell is worked), Quirrell's deadly curse (I suspect, made using Voldemort's power), and various things that Dumbledore does like conjuring sleeping bags for the student body in PoA. Wands don't appear to be necessary for potion-making, Divination, Herbology, Astronomy, or other classes that don't require charms of some sort. Finally, there is the Priori Incantatem scene in GoF. If ever we needed evidence that wands are important to a wizard's life, this is it. What seems to make the subject of wands the most fascinating is that wands are, even more than the Hogwarts Houses, a sort of wizardly Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. This indicator speaks the most to the wand owner him/herself, rather than to everybody else who can look up whether you're a Hufflepuff or a Gryffindor. Fleur Delacour has a veela-hair wand, made possible by her veela grandmother; Ron's wand is a unicorn hair made of willow; we don't know what Hermione's wand is; Voldemort's wand has a feather from Fawkes in it. Wands both reveal and conceal the most essential things about a wizard; and no matter how many times we discuss it we never completely settle whether wands are a clue to a wizard's destiny, personality, character, potential, or all of the above. But discuss it anyway. :) H A R R Y A S F O C A L P O I N T We learn about wands and magical ability most through Harry's own learning experiences. So I'm including a section about Harry and his magical ability. From Hagrid's introduction in Chapter 4 of PS/SS, we learn (sort of) what a wizard is; how wizards happen (sort of); what kind of world they inhabit; and how they do things. We also find out that whether he knows it or not, Harry is a talented wizard. From the beginning, he doubts the fact: ** Hagrid looked at Harry with warmth and respect blazing in his eyes, but Harry, instead of feeling pleased and proud, felt quite sure there had been a horrible mistake. A wizard? Him? How could he possibly be? He'd spent his life being clouted by Dudley, and bullied by Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon; if he was really a wizard, why hadn't they been turned into warty toads every time they'd tried to lock him in his cupboard? If he'd once defeated the greatest sorcerer in the world, how come Dudley had always been able to kick him around like a football? "Hagrid," he said quietly, "I think you must have made a mistake. I don't think I can be a wizard." To his surprise, Hagrid chuckled. "Not a wizard, eh? Never made things happen when you was scared or angry?" (PS/SS, Ch. 4) ** Apparently, wizard power manifests itself most during moments of urgent emotion, fear and anger being the most common types of urgency. The competitive excitement of a Quidditch game is another, and so while people respect Harry for being a good Quidditch player, Harry intuitively discredits that strength as being another one that he only has in reaction to circumstances. In fact, Harry doesn't believe that his power has an internal locus of control; note that he attributes his success in learning Accio to his fear at confronting the dragon (GoF Ch. 20). He is surprised later in that book to discover that he can cast an accurate Banishing Charm on a cushion. He seems to forget, or never notice, that the Patronus Charm which he masters is difficult even for his teachers; that no-one, not even "powerfully magical" Barty Crouch Sr., can resist an Imperius Curse as successfully as he can; and even when he flings a gnome off his finger in CoS, he passes it off as accident that it goes fifty feet and impresses the Weasleys. Harry doesn't notice this, but we do, and it's the source of great debate. THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT HARRY So is Harry Super? Many listmembers don't want him to be. They reason that since Lockhart's books would be stupid and boring even if Lockhart had actually done the feats in them, that the HP books would end up being boring if Harry turned out to be someone who can crook his little finger and rule the world. But Dumbledore, being arguably super, is also arguably not boring, because he's wise, odd, and delightfully irreverent. And even Dumbledore can't solve moral conflicts with a wave of his wand, much to Harry's dismay in PoA. Three things seem clear: there's something about Harry, and we don't know what it is yet; these books are (arguably) more than anything about Harry's coming of age; and being super doesn't solve moral conflicts, as Dumbledore shows. So whether Harry is Talented, Super, a Sham, or a Regular Joe, the story arc is still about his personal transformation, just as the story of alchemy is about the Philosopher's personal transformation, and Voldemort's story is a story of (horrible) personal transformation. This is what makes us want read more about him, because so far he is like Shroedinger's cat, and his fate is sealed in a box. Still, it doesn't hurt to debate some more. So what sort of person IS Harry? Could he conceivably make a Philosopher's Stone? Is his periodic flirtation with rebellion a teenage thing, a character thing, or a thing that shows his power? Is he really, as Hermione says, a "great wizard" in her sense? In any other sense? Ladies and Gentlemen, the floor is yours. Lisa I. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Wed Aug 15 00:11:21 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 00:11:21 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <9lcdub+5sb0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lcen9+anbg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24170 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aleks" wrote: > > Not as crucial, but in the same league is this error near the > top > > of > > > page 325: > > > > > > "[Madame Maxime] wasn't exactly hard to miss." > > > > > > Umm... Shouldn't that be that she *was* hard to miss?? > > > -- Dave > > > > > > It most certainly should. She was hard to miss, or, to put it > > differently, it was difficult to avoid seeing her. Good for you! > > > > Bente > > > I'm not sure where any of you are from so maybe this is just an > english thing, but I would say, for example that she 'wasn't exactly > hard to miss', and I know that plenty of the people I know would too. > It might not be grammatically correct, (I'm not sure, you've got me > confused now) but it is in common usage. I'm from Scandinavia originally, but have lived in the US for fifteen years and started studying English in school a good many years before that; I'm the first to admit that my English isn't perfect, but this one I'm sure about, gramatically if not common usage. Something is hard to miss when it's especially big and/or eye catching in some other way. Something is easy to miss when it's small and obscure. Therefore, Madame Maxime would be hard to miss due to the fact that she's really big. If you figure in the negative... she wasn't exactly easy to miss or it would be hard to miss her. Agree? Bente From carebair_23 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 00:38:09 2001 From: carebair_23 at yahoo.com (Raechel Elizabeth) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups]Typos In-Reply-To: <9lcen9+anbg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010815003809.28466.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24171 My opinion on the "typo" would be that it isn't one! Scarcasm is a very hard thing to write in a story. It is all about inflection. How your voice sounds makes all the difference in the world. By saying that "she wasn't exactly hard to miss..." it is really saying that she was so huge that just stating that would have been an understatement. Harry is, personal opinion here, simply being scarcastic. K that's all I wanted to say! Raechel Elizabeth~* Bente13 at peoplepc.com wrote: Something is hard to miss when it's especially big and/or eye catching in some other way. Something is easy to miss when it's small and obscure. Therefore, Madame Maxime would be hard to miss due to the fact that she's really big. If you figure in the negative... she wasn't exactly easy to miss or it would be hard to miss her. Agree? Bente --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $0.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catsrock at hotmail.com Wed Aug 15 01:30:38 2001 From: catsrock at hotmail.com (Kavitha Kannan) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 01:30:38 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Genes and Wands In-Reply-To: <9lccdd+fg17@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lcjbu+107bb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24172 Hmmm...OK...I saw it as dominant, but I'm seeing the arguments for recessive. lets see if I can draw squares on a computer. D is dominant and the mage-gene and R is recessive and the non-mage-gene. M is magic, and X is...well, non-magic. R R D R D R D D D D R X X R M X D M M D M M D M M R X X R M X R M X R M M D M M The x from DR and DR is a squib. If the mage-gene is recessive R R D R D R D D D D R M M R X M D X X D X X D X X R M M R X M R X M R X X D X X Yeah, that makes more sense. And as was pointed out in another post, Squib-ness could be brought about by a diesese. But I think Squibness (yah! I've invented a word! Ahem.) may just be a very latent magical ability. Or why would Filch want the Kwikspell course? Is he just grasping at straws? Is it not intended for Squibs, but rather for people like Neville? Or is it a way to charm (if you will) magical powers out of someone? If so...could I possibly take a Kwikspell course, since I may well be the equivalent of a Squib? And they do have math at Hogwarts, they have arithmancy with Prof. Vector. If that isn't magic, I don't know what is. Next, I'm wondering, are giants magical by nature-we know they are "magical creatures" in a sense, but if giants and humans can have brats, then aren't they just impossibly (except it is possible) big humans? Then, could a giant have magical power? If so, why did Hagrid think he might not have been invited to Hogwarts due to his mother? And then: what if a witch marries a giant? Wouldn't she die in childbirth? Or are babies normally sized? And the werewolf bite: does it only work on wizards, or also on Muggles? Why don't magical werewolves lose their magical powers? Or are all werewolves naturally magical-that is, capable of magic? Is werewolfism (more new words) genetic? Is veelahood? And vamprism? And haghood? And all the other weird powers? What exactly defines a magical non-human creature? A lot of them don't actually do anything magical. Like dwarves. And..giants and, possibly, hags. They don't seem magical, just *different.* So what's with that? Centaurs are big on Astrology, House Elves have magic of their own, basilisks have a magical stare. Either that or their eyes are so ugly they scare people to death. But I doubt that. Goblins...well, they seem pretty normal too. How about gnomes? Their only claim to magical fame is being dead annoying. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cimorene21 at h... wrote: > > (Actually, according to my psych professor at any rate, humans use ALL > of their brains, but we've only figured out about 10% of which areas > correspond to which function). > > On the genetic thing-- it would make sense that the ability to perform > magic is genetic, but-- there's something about it that just doesn't > work. I've spent a lot of time puzzling it out-- and what with the > information Rowling gives us, magic doesn't fit into Mendelian > genetics: let's say there IS a gene for magic. Is it recessive or > dominant? Given the phenomenon of "mudbloods"-- children with a trait > that neither of their parents have-- it would HAVE to be a recessive > gene, or it would have expressed itself in one or both parents. > Assuming that it's a recessive gene, though, squibs shouldn't exist- - > if it's recessive, then in order for the trait to manifest isself in > the person't phenotype, they'd have to be homozygous-- which means > that they wouldn't be able to transfer the dominant (nonmagical) gene > to their kids. Oh the other hand, it might not be so simple as > straight genetics: I think being a squib might be analogous to being > a hermaphrodite. Hermaphroditity doesn't result from too few or many > X/Y chromosomes: hermaphrodites are genetically male or female, but > something went wrong during development that didn't allow the genes to > manifest properly. This would be in perfect accord with the idea of > witches/wizards having different brain chemistry.... yeah. Heh. From nausicaa at atlantic.net Wed Aug 15 01:39:10 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:39:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Genes and Wands References: Message-ID: <3B79D2BE.A0706DB1@atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24173 Alfredo Ramrez wrote: > > Of course, if everyone comes from a limited stock of original wizards, then > having wizards breed purely with wizards would end up causing a whole lot of > genetic anomalies. Wizards have to breed with muggles. I cant really > explain mudbloods (pardon the term) or squibs. One word -- throwbacks. The same way someone with bright red hair can be born to a family that for several generations only had brown hair, someone with/without magical ability can be born. I don't know how that would work as far as recessive/dominant...possibly something like height (where many genes control it, and only the right combination results in particular strengths of magical ability). -- Jenny "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." From nausicaa at atlantic.net Wed Aug 15 01:56:11 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:56:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Genes and Wands References: <9lcjbu+107bb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B79D6BB.6D3D49B9@atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24174 Kavitha Kannan wrote: > > Hmmm...OK...I saw it as dominant, but I'm seeing the arguments for > recessive. lets see if I can draw squares on a computer. D is > dominant and the mage-gene and R is recessive and the non-mage-gene. > M is magic, and X is...well, non-magic. > > R R D R D R D D D D > R X X R M X D M M D M M D M M > R X X R M X R M X R M M D M M > The x from DR and DR is a squib. > If the mage-gene is recessive > > R R D R D R D D D D > R M M R X M D X X D X X D X X > R M M R X M R X M R X X D X X > Yeah, that makes more sense. > And as was pointed out in another post, Squib-ness could be brought > about by a diesese. But I think Squibness (yah! I've invented a > word! Ahem.) may just be a very latent magical ability. Or why would > Filch want the Kwikspell course? Is he just grasping at straws? Is > it not intended for Squibs, but rather for people like Neville? Or > is it a way to charm (if you will) magical powers out of someone? If > so...could I possibly take a Kwikspell course, since I may well be > the equivalent of a Squib? I'm still a bit more fond of the idea that multiple genes control it. It's not unheard of, and actually even eye color (that standard of biology textbooks) is controlled by several genes (thus we don't just have blue & brown eyes, as those same books would like you to believe we do). Thus, people could go several (even dozens) of generations and suddenly show up with magic...or suddenly show up without! *gasp* And also, thus the idea that Kwikspell courses might work, since the probability of a squib having *some* of the genetic requirements is fairly decent. > And they do have math at Hogwarts, they have arithmancy with Prof. > Vector. If that isn't magic, I don't know what is. > Next, I'm wondering, are giants magical by nature-we know they > are "magical creatures" in a sense, but if giants and humans can have > brats, then aren't they just impossibly (except it is possible) big > humans? Then, could a giant have magical power? Possibly...as noted by Hagrid...going on the same genetic lines, someone in giant history would've had to have been wizard-y. Possibly some human interbreeding, possibly a random mutation on their own. If so, why did > Hagrid think he might not have been invited to Hogwarts due to his > mother? As noted, most people seem to think rather poorly of giants...which means that a lot of people might not want him at the school (either fear for kids or fear for selves, I suppose). > And the werewolf bite: does it only work on wizards, or also on > Muggles? Why don't magical werewolves lose their magical powers? Or > are all werewolves naturally magical-that is, capable of magic? Is > werewolfism (more new words) genetic? Lycanthropy (werewolfism) is more of a disease, as legends go. Thus, it could/would probably be passed on to children. The actual disease lycanthropy (does exist) is genetic, but it only means that you're pretty darn hairy. -- Jenny "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 02:07:03 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 02:07:03 -0000 Subject: Genes/Wizard life/"Super" Harry In-Reply-To: <3B79D2BE.A0706DB1@atlantic.net> Message-ID: <9lclg7+4bmr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24175 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jennifer wrote: > Alfredo Ram?rez wrote: > > > > Of course, if everyone comes from a limited stock of original wizards, then having wizards breed purely with wizards would end up causing a whole lot of genetic anomalies. Wizards have to breed with muggles. I can't really explain mudbloods (pardon the term) or squibs. > > One word -- throwbacks. The same way someone with bright red hair can be born to a family that for several generations only had brown hair, someone with/without magical ability can be born. I don't know how that would work as far as recessive/dominant...possibly something like height (where many genes control it, and only the right combination results in particular strengths of magical ability). I've heard this called a biological sport: a person born with characteristics seemingly absent in the parents, but the parents have the potential to give the characteristic to their offspring nonetheless. And as far as wizards living only in the wizard world, Hogsmeade is described as the only all-wizarding community in Great Britain, so one must assume by extension that anyone who doesn't live in Hogsmeade lives in the "real" world with a variety of protections in place to prevent Muggles detecting their wizard status. Many wizarding children in this sort of situation may very well grow up with electricity and telephones and computers and so on (the Weasleys are depicted as being old-fashioned in many ways). The only reason these things aren't used at Hogwarts is because there is too much magic in the air there for them to work. There should be nothing preventing a wizard family from moving into a nice flat in London and getting their electricity and phone and water and gas hooked up and still using magic for a number of things as well. And I don't believe Harry is "super," but I do believe that he is special, as does Voldemort, or he wouldn't have been after him to begin with. That's still the missing piece of the puzzle: Voldemort's motivation. --Barb From nausicaa at atlantic.net Wed Aug 15 02:10:29 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:10:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Random Parseltongue questions References: <005401c124ff$6a08b320$0101a8c0@hp> Message-ID: <3B79DA15.8D5806B6@atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24176 I never got the idea that parseltongues can *control* serpents. I always thought that it was just that they could communicate with snakes...and as we all know, it's much easier to get people to do things if we ask instead of staying silent and hoping they'll read minds. Maybe snakes are just pleasant sorts, if you ask them correctly. Natalie wrote: > > IIRC, Parseltongues can actually control serpents, right? So, if there was a > snake animagus, could a Parseltongue make him do whatever he (the > Parseltongue) wanted? > > Also, (and hopefully this hasn't been discussed too much before) > Parseltongue seems to work on dragons. During the first task, the Horntail's > head is swaying "like a snake before it's charmer." "'Come on,' Harry > hissed, swerving tantalizingly above her, 'come on, come and get me...up you > get now...'" And then she rears. What with the snake imagery and the hissing > (and obeying), it seems obvious to me that Harry was speaking Parseltongue. > But I also think that JKR would have mentioned it in the book, especially > since it was only obvious to me upon closer examination. Of course, it's > possible that I'm just slow and it went without saying. > > One last thing. Do you think there is such thing as a Parseltongue for an > animal other than serpents? Obviously, it wouldn't be called > Parseltongue.... > > Natalie > natabat at crosswinds.net > http://www.natabat.barrysworld.net -- Jenny "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." From saitaina at wizzards.net Wed Aug 15 02:15:43 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:15:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Random Parseltongue questions References: <005401c124ff$6a08b320$0101a8c0@hp> Message-ID: <011601c12530$32d0fee0$074e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 24177 I don't think Harry was hissing in Parseltounge to the dragon I believe he was hissing through his teeth, a voice tone of frustration and anger. Human's do it all them time although it rarely truly resembles hissing, it's just the way it's described. I myself do it quite often when I'm angry and when I do it it does sound like hissing due to a gap in my teeth. Saitaina ***** "Oh, yeah," said Harry, who was shaking with rage and hardly knew what he was saying, "me and the Slytherins, we all got together and had a bake sale, raised loads of money for evil, no worries there." -Draco Dormiens, Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter (fanfiction) "Wow," said Harry in a lifeless voice. "It's lovely, Mum. I bet all the other kids will wish they had a blanket with a really horrible motto on it just like this one." -Draco Dormiens, Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter (fanfiction) "Right," said Draco. "Tell me: when did the Boy Who Lived become The Boy Who Sulked?" -Draco Dormiens, Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter (fanfiction) "Better than Way Too Late Guy," Said Ron. "Better than, Just Stood Back Like a Prad And Watched Her Go Off With Malfoy Guy."-Ron, "Draco Dormiens, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic From vderark at bccs.org Wed Aug 15 02:28:57 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 02:28:57 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <184672001821423446982@antisocial.com> Message-ID: <9lcmp9+v873@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24178 Hey: The tone of your response to this post was uncalled for. The questions raised are perfectly reasonable ones, but even if they weren't, your response was inappropriate. You don't have to agree, but don't belittle someone on the list, okay? Just a side note (although I'm sure someone more official than I will point it out), this is Harry Potter for Grown Ups. We prefer proper capitalization in posts here. I know that most lists don't care, but we tend to get a bit picky about things like that on this list: using adult-level grammar and punctuation since we're expected to write adult-level content. And having recently spent some time on another list which wasn't so careful, I can only say that it's good to be back here among adults. Thanks, Steve Vander Ark From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 15 02:35:18 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:35:18 -0500 Subject: Insanely long and detailed reply (was Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World) References: <20010814.190632.-183923.2.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <3B79DFE6.2AD88824@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24179 "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > I am still quite perplexed by the entire premise of JKR's books. > Granted, I know that they are fantasy and all, but still, > realistically I still have a lot of unsettling doubts. Welcome to our world . > But, here it's only ONE family... I don't understand > how an entire POPULATION, an entire WORLD, can manage to always, > always, keep their existence a secret. I interpret this as meaning that the vast majority of Muggles either don't notice or don't process what they perceive correctly. Have you read the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" series? The wizarding world is protected by some spells, sure, but mostly because it has the equivalent of this giant SEP field (Somebody Else's Problem). People might see it, but they just don't *see* it, and if they do and are interested, they're likely to be the kind who'd know about it anyway. > Don't they EVER have to go out in the 'real' world for some thing or > other? Yeah, every so often, I imagine, but those who have to dress like Muggles. Hence McGonagall's disgusted complaint to Dumbledore at the start of book 1, that people were out in broad daylight dressed in wizard clothing. > Do they live in exclusive villages like Hogsmeade, Nope, that's supposed to be the only all-wizarding community (in England? where? Steve?) > or if they're scattered around London, etc., don't the > Muggles notice them? No, because their residences and hang-out places are hidden. The Muggles can see the storefront of the Leaky Cauldron, but as what happens with Harry, there's a spell on it that makes them just not notice it (Harry didn't really notice it until he and Hagrid started to go in, as I recall). The Cauldron is an outlet to an arm of the wizarding world, Diagon Alley, but the Alley and environs is only accessible by magic, out behind the Cauldron. There's no way a Muggle would notice that. > Do you mean to tell me, that the big government of > England, for instance, has never noticed this huge unusual population? Why should they? They don't pay taxes, they don't claim the dole, they don't attend public school, they don't do any of the usual things that make people need to be noticed by the government. With the exception of the Prime Minister (and possibly a few other need-to-know higher-ups), the government has no reason to be aware of their existence. It's strongly intimated that wizarding efforts assisted in WWII, as well, but I bet that doesn't show up in Muggle history books. > Isnt' there a census or something? Doesn't every citizen have to pay > taxes or whatever? For what? Upkeep on roads they don't use? Upkeep on an electrical grid they don't use? Upkeep on schools they don't attend? Paying the taxes doesn't make you a citizen; birth does, and they are wizarding citizens, known about by only the highest levels of the Muggle government, and allowed a fair amount of autonomy (much like the American Indians on some [all?] reservations are allowed their own governments [shaky analogy, not real clear on details here, but broadly true]). > You can't just be a 'non-entity'. You exist, and you > live in this world, and people are bound to notice you. They are not > entirely invisible. People do notice them. But they're wizarding people. I have an analogy for you that might help. I belong to a medieval recreation group, the SCA. There's about 25,000 members (big ballpark, it's been a while since I paid attention to membership stats). It began with a backyard event in 1966 in (where else?) California, and has spread all over the US, to Norway, Germany, the UK, and an aircraft carrier (again, as of the last time I paid attention). We do weekend "events" ranging from medieval feasts in church halls, to fighter practices in parks, large tournament events that last a week (Pennsic War, up by Pennsylvania, where several kingdoms fight and the loser gets Pittsburgh, is in its second decade, lasts ten days, and attracts upwards of a couple thousand each year), local demos for schools, libraries, etc., and you get the idea. I have walked into many a local convenience store in full Elizabethan or early-period garb to buy my Dr. Pepper or cheese or whatever, and answered the inevitable "are you in a play?" questions. We are many, and a full subculture, and are covered by the news on a fairly regular basis as a filler or local color. I know people whose whole livelihood is the SCA--armorers, jewelers, crossbow makers, etc. The point I am making is that the SCA isn't even *trying* to hide, yet most people are totally ignorant of us. We use public areas, fill out forms, file non-profit tax stuff, greet those who come up to ask what we're doing, and don't have the ability to escape the mundane world by magically hiding. Mine is a flamboyant, vibrant, colorful, oddly dressed and oddly speaking bunch of people, readily noticed, and yet very little known. Imagine how much easier for the wizarding world to escape notice, when they can hide themselves magically and when most of those who see them will simply assume they're in a play, never asking. > The government of England would know if a 'village' > of such exists, and if they live mixed, then they are certainly due to > pay taxes or whatever. So they may. What would be special about the tax return from Lily and James Potter of Godric's Hollow, that would call extra attention to them? > And then again their are fire inspections and > other government - related things you can't wiggle out of. Sure you can. You have a very Big-Brother view of the government. > It smacks extremely unrealistic and improbable that the wizarding > existence is totally unnoticed. It's not totally unnoticed. It's just that when it is noticed, it's either not registered by the viewer for what it really is, Memory Charmed, or noticed by those that already know. > All it takes is one person to discover it, which leads > to one magazine article describing it, which leads to one television > special, and the secrt is out! Yeah, just imagine what would happen if someone found out and tried to report it! Yeesh! I imagine the Star or the National Enquirer would pick it up immediately. The person might also get invited to reputable talk shows like Jerry Springer, to tell their story next to the UFO-abductee. People would just panic in the streets. > Now, the Wizards do not have electricity. but they do have plumbing. Much like the ancient Romans. > (Btw, how do they wash their laundry without wash machines?) Much like the ancient Romans. Or like my husband's mother, for that matter. You young thing, did you ever hear of a washboard? Or wonder what the washerwomen were *doing* in Little Mermaid, bumping Sebastian in the cloth down that ribby board? But then again, we *are* talking wizards, here; I imagine there's garden variety cleaning spells, that *do* require water but do not require a machine. > And let's say their toilet breaks down. Do they have their 'own' > plumbers, so that they don't have to call the Muggle plumbers, etc.? Probably. The wizarding world in general seems a bit more self-sufficient than most of the Muggles I know (self included), because most of us don't really know how our doodads work, but most wizards have a broad enough range of broadly applicable spells to do a fix-it on most of the things in their world. I'll also point out that pipes lined with a non-stick, non-plug spell probably don't have as many problems as ours.... > And when something like this DOES happen, since the Wizards are > totally inept in anything Muggle-related, won't their existence > suddenly be crystal clear? No, because there's no evidence that I can think of that their stuff is Muggle in origin. If they see Muggle stuff, they copy or adapt it, they don't go and get the Muggle variety. I doubt their toilets come from Home Depot, or at least that they get installed un-spelled. > Say for instance, that a nosy neighbor, or a meter reader, or a survey > taker, knocks on their door. Having made it through the Muggle-repelling charms? > Doesn't a Muggle knocking on a Wizard's door, notice that this house > is somehow different? No electricity, no lights? Are they knocking at night? I've knocked on plenty of doors at dark houses, think they were wizards? Are they coming in to use the bathroom, and noticing odd things about the toilet? I don't think most people would notice; this sort of "background" stuff is often painted mentally, without ever having been seen--this is the sort of thing your own brain does every day, when it "covers" the blind spot on your retina where the optic nerve comes in with visual images drawn from the surrounding imagery. It takes real effort to "see" that blind spot, I can't even remember how--but the point here is, in the Rock Man's words to Oblio (from Nilsson's "The Point"): "You see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear." Most Muggles aren't looking and wouldn't *see* it if they did see it. > How does a Wizard deal with a Muggle, when it comes to it, if he is so > inept in Muggle things? He's not inept at Muggle language; he can talk to him. What other sorts of "dealing with" are we talking about? > Why, if there are Muggle studies in school, dont' > we ever read about them? Because I think they're put in for our amusement, that things we think of as so normal and unlivable-without are the object of arcane studies, anywhere, much less right in our own backyard. > Why is Arthur so excited about 'eklectricity' -- > don't they learn about it in Muggle studies? Sure, they probably learn the theory. I learned about catapults, Viking longships, and oral-formulaic poetry in medieval studies. But *damn,* it's exciting to see a REAL longship! Just like they used! And my professor saw the REAL THING in Norway! We saw the PICTURES, it was SO COOL, he was right there and could TOUCH it (although you weren't supposed to). And I LOVED the Nova special about the guys who built the big catapults to see if they could really knock down castle walls, I was glued to the set, even though it meant I got only five hours sleep. And although I know the theory of oral-formulaics, I can't do it, but I was spellbound by the one person I know who can, even haltingly. All of these things and more I learned loads about in class. Seeing the actuality was thrilling beyond words. > Do these Wizards think they're so smart, knowing curses and potions > and charms, when they know absolutely zero about the world around them > -- biology, science, technology, etc.? No, they know quite a bit about the world around them. Their world is the wizarding world, involving dangerous magical creatures and whole realms of information we would not know how to deal with or process. They know their world, and have no need of ours, and vice versa. Much like what would happen if you took a New York City native and dropped him in the Australian outback, and vice versa. Both individuals might be *very* smart and very saavy of their native worlds and surroundings; both would be totally lost in their new environs, and might not survive. > Also, I dont' think it's legal to live with a telephone. I assume you mean without. And yes, it is, I did for several years while I was at college. > How, can the Wizards contact an ambulance, policeman, or fireman in > case of an emergency? Why would they call Muggles? They'd call the appropriate MoM official, and they'd contact them by a wizarding means. > Do they even HAVE an emergency squad? Or are wizards so > magical that they can worm their way out of any emergency -- fire, > burglary, and illness? Probably. Their emergencies are not likely to be the kind that Muggle emergency personnel can handle--splinching, for instance. > What if Ginny Weasley went to buy a new dress robe, and couldn't > decide which color. She can't owl her mother and wait two days in the > store for an answer! Well, if I were Ginny, or was back at college with no phone, I'd either (a) bite the bullet and decide, or (b) ask the lady to hold both until I could get Mom's input, or (c) do without. > Why dont they have cell phones or public phones or something? Even the > Amish have public phones! What do they *need* them for? You have this tremendous dependence on an infrastructure that is really quite superfluous. People living in the hills, survivalists, Amish, other religious groups, etc., have managed quite well without modern "necessities." I imagine the Amish have public phones because they have unbent enough to want to be able to tap the very Muggle emergencies you name, and I imagine the wizards don't have them because they have their own ways of handling their own emergencies. > Don't the Wizards ever have to come in contact with Muggles for > survival? And when they do, they are totally unprepared. Look what > happened at the world cup -- Arthur couldn't even count money. Yeah, and they Memory Charmed Mr. Forgot-His-Name, too. You can probably count on one hand the number of times Arthur will ever have to deal with Muggle money. Paying for lodging at the World Cup was hardly necessary to survival, either (unless you're more of a die-hard Quidditch fan than Arthur). > When they have to travel, what to they do? How does Charlie come in > from Egypt all the time? It's a bit far to Apparate; he may fly, or it's entirely reasonable to think that there's other means of wizarding travel that we wot not of (yet). > Flying broomsticks all the way to Egypt? They DO take the train, > though -- the Hogwarts Express. If they walk around dressed up in > robes on the street all the time, aren't they immediately visible? They don't; see reference to McGonagall's disgusted comment, above. > Are they all in Muggle clothing when they go to the train station? Yes. They change on the train. And the Hogwarts express is the only train mentioned that is ridden regularly, so far. The rest probably Floo or Apparate to work. > Don't the people working at the railway station notice something > weird? Yes. Harry gets odd looks because he has Hedwig in a cage, more than once. But again, that "Somebody Else's Problem" field kicks in, and most people do little more than give them a strange look and then dismiss them from their thoughts because they don't fit the mental mold anywhere. > How do Wizards manage to marry Muggles if the Muggle world is so > foreign and even contemptuous to Wizards? I imagine some Wizards do go into the Muggle world fairly frequently; we don't actually know the jobs or habits of very many--and meet their mates that way. Or perhaps a wizard notices a Muggle that *does* see something, and gets a gleam rather than a glaze--I imagine it takes a pretty special sort of Muggle to marry a wizard. > What if the Wizard cant convince the Muggle what a lovely world > Wizarding is, and the Muggle insists on using > microwave ovens and watching television even though she is married to > a wizard? Then they probably have an electric bill and file tax forms. So? > Does a muggle married to a wizard sever all her ties with her old > world, so as not to betray the secrets of her spouse? I guess it depends on the marriage. My best Catholic friend married a Jew, and didn't convert, although her children will be raised Jewish. I, raised Methodist, married a cradle Catholic and *did* convert. Whatever works, so long as the "cover" is maintained. The Muggle families of Hogwarts students "know," too, and do not reveal it (or have guest spots on Jerry Springer, see above). > Look at Lily Potter for instance -- her sister knew full well she was > a witch. Did Lily have to sever all ties with her friends and mother > etcetra, because she now > belonged to this 'other' world? Sounded more like Petunia was only too happy to sever things on her end. > What about people like Hermione's parents? How much do they know of > what wizarding is? What does it feel > like for Hermione to walk back into a Muggle home at the end of term, > with the computers and Nintendos when she is a Wizard in training and > possesses 'different' powers? Probably pretty cool. Like going back to the old house you grew up in, familiar but not where you live now. > What if a wizard marries a muggle and the muggle life is so enticing, > he decides to leave the wizarding world and > become a muggle? I guess he goes and gets the UK equivalent of a Social Security Number and finds a job. > Doesnt he take all the secrets with him - -and can > expose them to the world in one instant? Yes. He'd take all his knowledge with him (and good thing, too, since his kids are likely to get invited to Hogwarts). And he'd keep his mouth shut, or he'd be dealt with by MoM officials, or have a guest shot on the Springer show ("wow, did you catch that guy? That stuff he did looked almost *real,* it's amazing what they can do with effects these days!")....wonder if the special effects industry is due to just this phenomenon....? > Additionally, I don't know how the Muggle kids survive without the > electronic pastimes out kids can't be without. No TV. No movies. No > computers. No electronic games. No Nintendo. It is highly unrealistic > to expect all of the Wizarding kiddies to sit and read or play card > games > all day. What a highly boring life. Why would a child want to have > such a life when there is such an exciting electronic life out there? How old *are* you, dear? This is a ridiculous statement. Nobody ever died of boredom before these things were invented. Children sit and read and played games, or they had jobs or chores to do, or they pursued hobbies. Have you never heard of what many families do now, National Turn It Off or something, where families try to do family activities instead of gravitate to the TV? Honest, people had interesting, full lives even before 1950. > Another question that perturbs me is the apparent pride of being > wizard, and the knocking down of the Muggles. It smacks reminiscent of > the Third Reich-- WE are the master race, and THEY, are just lowly > Muggles. Verboten. Bad topic. Unallowed. But this is what all in-groups do, what loud Texans do, what obnoxious New Yorkers do, what benighted Iowans do, what inbred Britishers do---the tribal Us Good Them Bad thing. A small community almost requires that, to keep its integrity in the face of being overwhelmed. This sort of pride and identification is what keeps some linguistic dialects going in the face of all kinds of other influences. > Mind you, there are several billion muggles living in this world, and > only a few thousand Wizards who are not known, and hardly know each > other. Yeah? So? They breed faster. There are several gazillion insects living in this world, and only several billion humans, who hardly know each other. This makes the insects automatically better? Virtue through biomass? > Another question I have, is how they manage to support themselves with > only magical jobs. There are only so many people who can work for the > Ministry, and only so many people who can have shops in Hogsmeade. Well, a large part of income and supporting oneself is to pay for the things you say we can't do without. Since the wizards do without quite nicely, the amount they'd need to support themselves would be smaller on the face of it. And while we haven't been shown a lot of it, there's clearly a wizarding economy operating full-steam making things like Bertie Botts beans, Golden Snitches, broomstics, self-threading needles, odd clocks, etc. > What if someone wants to be a doctor? A lawyer? A scientist? There are > no schools of that sort in the Wizarding World, are there? No, but I bet there are spells. Madam Pomfrey is a healer. There's lawyer-types working for MoM. Nicolas Flamel, alchemist, and Dumbledore, his associate, and the developer of the Wolfsbane potion, all are pretty much scientists in my book. Any more? > What happens when a witch gives birth? She has a baby? Seriously, there's got to be pain charms and such. Pomfrey has handled so much more serious things than what can happen in a birth! I imagine the wizarding world still uses midwives, skilled at healing spells specifically for birthing. > Goes only to the St. Mungo hospital? Never to the > Muggle hospital? Why? > About schooling -- I don't understand why such simple subjects such as > making objects fly and flying on brooms are only taught at age eleven. > what did the kids do until then? Went to regular Muggle school? We've had loads of discourse on this, with the consensus being that children are homeschooled the basics of reading and writing, and pick up some magical theory (how could you avoid it?), but the formal magical training begins at Hogwarts. > Ginny was a teeny kid when Charlie was already disapparating and her > father was traveling by Floo Powder. Do you mean to say that she didnt > catch on to any of the spells and charms her family was using? She had > to stay in chains and wait eleven years to start training to live the > life her > family lives every day? My daughter is a teeny kid, and sees her father and me driving our cars every day. And we keep her in chains and fully intend to make her wait eleven more years to live the life we live every day. She also sees us drink wine, and knows we watch movies she's not allowed to see yet, and knows (alas) quite a few words which are "grown-up" words which she is not allowed to say. Poor mistreated thing. > Also, what can be taught in seven full years already? don't these > teachers run out of materials? How many potions, > magical creatures, curses, spells, charms and potions can they come up > with? I think this can all be taught in two or three years. Have you been to college yet? I took six years to finish my undergraduate, and can think of several masters' degrees I'd like, just at UT Austin alone--Medieval Studies, English Language and Linguistics, Marketing, Business Managment, Germanic Studies, etc. There's loads of specializations in the wizarding world, and Hogwarts is all there is--much like a hundred years ago, when the most important naturalists were self-taught and self-motivated. Seven years to get a grounding in everything, that is supposed to give me the basis for everything else (unless I do my own researches privately), is actually quite a short time. > SEVEN years worth of learning material? And what are they learning? > Just to be THEMSELVES? Just to learn to be a wizard -- as opposed to > WHAT? No, how to use their abilities. My brothers are professional musicians. They've spent years training and honing their natural, innate talent. I share their talent, but I never developed it. I can't do half the things they can, not a quarter. I can't play the instruments they can, I can't sing with the control and projection, etc. Having an innate talent is *not* the same as knowing how to use it or developing it. > As opposed to being a muggle? They know NOTHING about muggles! Isn't > the wizarding life, the life they are living every day? They have to > LEARN about it -- ad nauseum, ad infinitum? Jeez, I'm a mother by virtue of a couple fun nights and (cumulatively) 27 months of pregnancy, but I have to learn about it every damned day, and still am. You are not automatically good at being what you are. > The very base of the idea of the Wizarding World perturbs me. Clearly. > I don't quite understand how the relationship between the Wizarding > and the Muggle world works itself out. Easiest answer--it just does. Overanalyzing (a LOON writing this, yet!) often robs the matter of its charm. Bottom line, it works because we want it to work. > I have so many questions. These are just half of them. I will write > more later. I hope this sparks a lively > discussion. Well, a long one. Wonder if anyone got this far? Ten points to your Houses, diehards. Luv'n'kisses, Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mindyatime at juno.com Wed Aug 15 02:57:26 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 02:57:26 -0000 Subject: Insanely long and detailed reply In-Reply-To: <3B79DFE6.2AD88824@texas.net> Message-ID: <9lcoem+9fvk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24180 Amanda I must thank you (and everyone else who took the time out to read MY long and insane rant.) You really put things into perspective. Just one little note. I, myself, do not have a TV, do not go the movies, and have no electronic games (save for the Net.) So I know full and well what it's like to grow up without all of it. However, knowing today's kids, I was amazed that none of those little whiny brats wanted to run home to Muggle-land to get all the goodies Dudley abused on a regular basis. The responses are so interesting and I understand it all so much better now! Thank you very much. From litalex at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 03:04:52 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <9lcmp9+v873@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010815030452.63805.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24181 Hello, --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: > this list: using > adult-level grammar and punctuation since we're > expected to write > adult-level content. And having recently spent some I...protest the belief that only 'proper' capitalization can be considered adult grammar. If the lack of capitalization is inconsistent, then perhaps it can be considered un-adult (actually, I dislike using that particular adjective to describe incorrect grammar; I've seen plenty of teenagers who have better grasps on grammar than thirty year olds). But if the e-mail isn't capitalized throughout, I think you can just attribute it to stylistic choice and, imho, should be allowed, same as the various little abbreviations we're so fond of on e-mail. And forgive me if such matters shouldn't be discussed here... little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From john at walton.to Wed Aug 15 03:33:48 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:33:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <20010815030452.63805.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24182 Alexandra Y. Kwan said: > Hello, > > --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: >> this list: using >> adult-level grammar and punctuation since we're >> expected to write >> adult-level content. And having recently spent some > > I...protest the belief that only 'proper' > capitalization can be considered adult grammar. If > the lack of capitalization is inconsistent, then > perhaps it can be considered un-adult (actually, I > dislike using that particular adjective to describe > incorrect grammar; I've seen plenty of teenagers who > have better grasps on grammar than thirty year olds). > But if the e-mail isn't capitalized throughout, I > think you can just attribute it to stylistic choice > and, imho, should be allowed, same as the various > little abbreviations we're so fond of on e-mail. > > And forgive me if such matters shouldn't be discussed > here... > > little Alex I can understand your position, and agree entirely that many teenagers (and even pre-teens) have a better grammatical style than many adults. Stylistic choice and individualism is all very well and good if you're e.e. cummings or James Joyce (who wrote an entirely unpunctuated work). In fact, it's possibly novel and to be encouraged -- outside this group. ::grins:: However, as Steve said, this *is* a group for mature people. (HPforGROWNUPS, geddit?) As such, since we expect people to avoid abbreviations and chatspeak like 2, b, 4, 8, u, yr, b/c, kewl, and iRRiTaTiNG MiXeD CaPiTaLiSaTioN, we also insist that people use acceptable spelling, punctuation and grammar. This doesn't mean that every post must be perfect -- typos and brain farts happen to everyone. However, please use a computer spell-checker, as well as proofing the email personally. It's simply a matter of courtesy -- it's FAR easier for the vast majority of people to read correctly spelled, punctuated and grammaticised email. If you have an individualist, rebellious streak in you, or are allergic to the shift button, or have any other sort of issue, please feel free to contact the Moderators @ hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Things that are accepted by the majority of the list are the IMO/AFAIK/IIRC type of abbreviation, as well as the /::action::/*action* type of emotion-speak. Smileys are also kosher. :D On a side note...if you're (or if other listies are) ever trying to decide which list to post something on, you can always check the myriad documents which the Mods have made available for the last couple of years in the Files Section @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups --John, Mod Team hOO Iz rEEl kAYrfUl 2 uze gUd spAllIn n grAmmEr. ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to There is no such thing as a moral book or an immoral book. Books are well written or badly written. That is all. --Oscar Wilde ________________________________ From litalex at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 03:36:57 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wizard finding jobs in muggle world (was Re: Insanely long and detailed reply (was Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World) In-Reply-To: <3B79DFE6.2AD88824@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010815033657.95001.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24183 Hello, Mindy asked, > What if a wizard marries a muggle and the muggle life is so enticing, > he decides to leave the wizarding world and > become a muggle? --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: >>>>>I guess he goes and gets the UK equivalent of a Social Security Number and finds a job.<<<<< How? People get social security numbers when they provide birth certificates, etc. In this day and age, there seem to be a *lot* of paperwork for anyone just to exist. The wizard won't have the basic paperwork to get to the point where he can have a social security number. And what kind of a job a wizard can do in the Muggle world, when he's probably not encouraged to use much magic? Professional jobs nowadays seem so specialized that the only ones the poor wizard would be able to get will probably be pretty menial (McDonald's burger flipper, anyone?). Even if he has the skills, how can he prove it? He can't just say that he went to Hogwarts, 'cause that's supposed to be kept secret, but without that, he has no proof that he had any sort of an education at all. And with absolutely no work experience in the Muggle world... Ugh. I guess they just don't end up into the Muggle world, then, and simply become similar to Arthur. Amanda further asked: >>>>>Have you been to college yet?<<<<< Funny you should bring that up... I know the following has probably been asked many times, but witches and wizards seem to begin work immediately after Hogwarts (or the Continental equivalents), right? Are there any wizarding universities? Don't any of them get Ph.D's? Hell, there doesn't even seem to be a qualifying exam for teachers. Should all the teachers take some sort of special course? What about being a doctor/nurse like Madam Pomfrey? What 'proof' she has that she has adequate skills and knowledge? Are people hired just by reputation, recommendations, and/or personal acquaintance? (Or whoever that applied, in the case of Lockhart?) It just seems so...disorganized. Sigh. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From john at walton.to Wed Aug 15 03:39:17 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:39:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizard finding jobs in muggle world (was Re: Insanely long and detailed reply (was Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World) In-Reply-To: <20010815033657.95001.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24184 Alexandra Y. Kwan said: > Hello, > > Mindy asked, >> What if a wizard marries a muggle and the muggle > life is so enticing, >> he decides to leave the wizarding world and >> become a muggle? > > --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: >>>>>> I guess he goes and gets the UK equivalent of a > Social Security Number and finds a job.<<<<< > > How? People get social security numbers when they > provide birth certificates, etc. In this day and age, > there seem to be a *lot* of paperwork for anyone just > to exist. The wizard won't have the basic paperwork > to get to the point where he can have a social > security number. Since we do know that the Minister of Magic briefs the Muggle Prime Minister, I'm sure that there is at least some sort of process to enable wizards to become Muggles. Perhaps through an asylum-like process? > And what kind of a job a wizard can do in the Muggle > world, when he's probably not encouraged to use much > magic? Professional jobs nowadays seem so specialized > that the only ones the poor wizard would be able to > get will probably be pretty menial (McDonald's burger > flipper, anyone?). Umm...how about a clairvoyant? Or a tarot card reader? Or a writer? > Even if he has the skills, how can he prove it? He > can't just say that he went to Hogwarts, 'cause that's > supposed to be kept secret, but without that, he has > no proof that he had any sort of an education at all. > And with absolutely no work experience in the Muggle > world... Ugh. I guess they just don't end up into > the Muggle world, then, and simply become similar to > Arthur. I bet there's some sort of equivalency, possibly through the Open University or something like that. > Amanda further asked: >>>>>> Have you been to college yet?<<<<< > > Funny you should bring that up... I know the > following has probably been asked many times, but > witches and wizards seem to begin work immediately > after Hogwarts (or the Continental equivalents), > right? Are there any wizarding universities? Don't > any of them get Ph.D's? That irritates me as well, so I'm in the middle of a fic about it. See HP and the Song of Time under my Crazy Ivan pen name at Schnoogle.com. --John __s_c_h_n_o_o_g_l_e_._c_o_m___________ John Walton -- Crazy Ivan ivan at schnoogle.com =| Schnoogle.com, part of the FictionAlley.org community |= * high-quality novel-length fanfiction from some of your favorite authors * run *by* Harry Potter fans *for* Harry Potter fans * talk to your favorite authors using Schnoogle.com messageboards ____________s_c_h_n_o_o_g_l_e_._c_o_m_ From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 03:44:30 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:44:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's brief / suitcase In-Reply-To: <9lcdpe+u068@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24185 So where was he a professor? Or did he perhaps make the tag for his bag? I don't see Lupin saying to himself "what I really need is to have a tag on my bag that says PROFESSOR R.J. Lupin" Just a thought. We?re in the wizarding world. =) I?d imagine that with the simple tap of your wand, the tag on your suitcase could pretty much say anything you like. What?s the point of being a wizard if you can?t even save yourself from mundane things like updating the tags on your luggage? =) JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 03:57:21 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:57:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <20010814.190632.-183923.2.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24186 Most of the questions and issues have been answered already, but there are a few points I?d like to address from this post. Additionally, I don't know how the Muggle kids survive without the electronic pastimes out kids can't be without. No TV. No movies. No computers. No electronic games. No Nintendo. It is highly unrealistic to expect all of the Wizarding kiddies to sit and read or play card games all day. What a highly boring life. Why would a child want to have such a life when there is such an exciting electronic life out there? Regardless of whether wizard children are ever introduced to such things as computer or Nintendo?s, they have interesting things to do in their own world. For example: 1) Exploding Snap. I don?t recall what this is, but I remember Hermione, Ron and Harry playing this at Hogwarts. 2) Chess. Sure, it might seem boring but becomes much more interesting once the pieces are sentient. =) 3) There was that marbles game where the marbles spit some smelly thing into the winner?s eyes. 4) Quidditch. I for one would trade in my computer for the chance to play on flying broomsticks. =) There are undoubtedly more things that little wizard children can play, I just can?t think of any right now. =) Another question that perturbs me is the apparent pride of being wizard, and the knocking down of the Muggles. It smacks reminiscent of the Third Reich-- WE are the master race, and THEY, are just lowly Muggles. Mind you, there are several billion muggles living in this world, and only a few thousand Wizards who are not known, and hardly know each other. I feel it?s important to point out that not _all_ wizards feel contempt for Muggles. Yes, there are those like Draco Malfoy and his father, but not everyone is like that. They?re just different, making them rather strange. Much as we can?t understand how wizard children can do without Playstation 2, they can?t understand how we do without Floo Powder or the like. This does not mean they consider us inferior. Arthur Weasley for example, seems to admire Muggles to some extent. He?s always commenting on the amazing lengths Muggles have gone to survive without magic. So yes, there are wizard Bigots (much like there are Muggle Bigots), but not everyone is like that. Also, your comment on the population ratio between Wizards and Muggles pretty much answers your other questions. How do Wizards survive without raising attention? They?re like needles in a haystack. How many Muggles probably encounter a Wizard in their lifetime, and assuming they encounter one, that?s only a single strange individual. Muggles can be pretty crazy too, I?d say Wizards can blend in rather easily. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 04:09:03 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:09:03 -0500 Subject: Wizards, Jobs & Social Security In-Reply-To: <20010815033657.95001.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24187 How? People get social security numbers when they provide birth certificates, etc. In this day and age, there seem to be a *lot* of paperwork for anyone just to exist. The wizard won't have the basic paperwork to get to the point where he can have a social security number. I think it?s safe to say that certain sections of the main-stream (Muggle) government know about wizards. Considering that most Wizards are half-bloods, they?d have social security numbers anyway. As for purebloods, I think there is probably some sort of cooperation program between the Ministry of Magic and the UK equivalent of the Department of State. A birth certificate is likely drawn up for the newly born wizard and then stored in some file. In the US, you need three things to get a social security number: 1) Proof of age. 2) Proof of identity. 3) Proof of citizenship. 1 and 3 are easily filled by the aforementioned birth certificate. As for 2, a driver?s license does quite nicely. If you?re going to join the Muggle world, you might as well know how to drive and get a driver?s license, no? With those two things, you can get a social security number and start your life. And what kind of a job a wizard can do in the Muggle world, when he's probably not encouraged to use much magic? Professional jobs nowadays seem so specialized that the only ones the poor wizard would be able to get will probably be pretty menial (McDonald's burger flipper, anyone?). Wizards can fulfill roles as herbalists, fortunetellers, and various other ?New Age? professions. Also, there?s always night school and that sort of thing. Another possibility is this: the Wizard Integration Program. This would certainly require the cooperation of the MoM with mainstream government. It could consist of the following: 1) The creation of an identity for the wizard. This would include social security number, birth certificate, university diplomas, etc. I?d expect some Wizard studies can be revalidated, as the Ministry of Education deems proper. 2) A slew of courses aimed at making the Wizards more comfortable and able to blend in with other Muggles. This could include: Electricity, Telephones, Automobiles, etc There could be different course levels, so that wizards that took Muggle Studies at Hogwarts wouldn?t have to relearn old stuff. 3) Finding the Wizard a job to start with. This way Wizards can become part of normal society with the least amount of problems and I suppose it?s at least plausible. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vderark at bccs.org Wed Aug 15 04:21:53 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 04:21:53 -0000 Subject: universities / WizWorld structure In-Reply-To: <20010815033657.95001.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lctd1+nm0s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24188 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > > Funny you should bring that up... I know the > following has probably been asked many times, but > witches and wizards seem to begin work immediately > after Hogwarts (or the Continental equivalents), > right? Are there any wizarding universities? Don't > any of them get Ph.D's? According to JKR, there are no Wizarding universities or colleges. She said this in an interview (don't have the reference handy, but I can get it if you want). One way to get something of a handle on the way the Wizarding World functions is to compare it not to our world but to the medieval world. In many ways, this is a much more accurate comparison. The attitudes toward many things--animals, for example--are very medieval. When you look at it that way, most of the population doesn't require the kind of schooling that we take for granted because magic has removed the need for many of those high professions. Here's the way it all seems to fall together: Anyone born to wizarding parents is a wizard and has magical power. Some have very little, in which case they are squibs, but they all have it. That's why the KwikSpell course can work with squibs. The key is how much power they have. Up to a certain point, they do not have the potential to become "fully qualified wizards," to take the phrase from the books. These folks do not attend Hogwarts, they move directly from basic schooling in the home or in small communal school settings into trades. Examples include Stan Shunpike and Tom the Innkeeper. Now to our modern way of thinking, these people are getting a raw deal. They have a right to become whatever they want to be, etc. But in the Wizarding World, that's not the case, just like it wasn't the case in medieval society. And this is logical, too, since they wouldn't have the magical power to DO just anything they might fancy. So someone like Stan, at age 14 or so, connects himself to the Knight Bus outfit, since he's always been keen on that sort of thing. He is given some training and assigned to an apprentice role aboard the bus, as conductor. He doesn't train to become a "fully qualified wizard," but he does learn the magic he needs to do his job. Most of the day to day stuff--lighting lamps or making a kettle boil--is extremely basic and is quickly mastered. Slightly more complicated things like charming your own cheese is picked up from books, magazines, the neighbor, things like that. And since Stan is a product of that medieval-style culture, this seems perfectly equitable to him. He LIKES his position and he enjoys what he does. Someone with stronger magical power, however, would travel a different path. They would be sent to Hogwarts and work toward becoming "fully qualified." This would allow them to become not just a Mediwizard (I'm thinking Paramedic here) but a trained healer, like Madam Pomfrey. It seems to me that the amount of magical power intrinsic to a person, while by far the most important factor, is not the only criteria for entering Hogwarts. Influence from a patron or a famous family enters into the picture. Why else would someone like Crabbe or Goyle make it into Hogwarts? This could also have helped Neville, whose family is extremely well-liked in Wizard society, however I believe that there is a lot more to Neville than we've seen so far, and I think that Dumbledore knows that or strongly suspects it. One important thing to remember as we analyze this is that this is a very different culture, with a very different set of priorities. We can't expect wizards to have our values or want the same things out of life. There is an strong level of pride they they hold in their culture and they don't see what Muggles have or do as worth a whole lot. In fact, since they don't understand technology at all (they need to study to understand a Muggle lifting a heavy object!) they aren't going to wish for having all our scientific knowledge or it's products. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From cimorene21 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 15 04:25:05 2001 From: cimorene21 at hotmail.com (cimorene21 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 04:25:05 -0000 Subject: Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <20010814.190632.-183923.2.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lctj1+cf77@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24189 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" >>>>>>>> Do you mean to tell me, that the big government of > England, for instance, has never noticed this huge unusual population? > Isnt' there a census or something? Doesn't every citizen have to pay > taxes or whatever? You can't just be a 'non-entity'. You exist, and you > live in this world, and people are bound to notice you. They are not > entirely invisible. The government of England would know if a 'village' > of such exists, and if they live mixed, then they are certainly due to > pay taxes or whatever. And then again their are fire inspections and > other government - related things you can't wiggle out of. It smacks > extremely unrealistic and improbable that the wizarding existence is > totally unnoticed. All it takes is one person to discover it, which leads > to one magazine article describing it, which leads to one television > special, and the secrt is out!<<<<<<<<< I live in the US, so the particulars are probably different, but the general idea is the same, I think-- here's some news. There ARE people that evade the system. There ARE people that just "drop out" of society, and do so on a regular basis. There are also quite a few categories of people that regularly "drop out", quite successfully: 1.) THE HOMELESS-- they're a HUGE population that basically, and sadly, goes mostly unnoticed. The census workers can't find all of them, they obviously aren't on welfare, and they sure as hell don't pay taxes. There are entire homeless cardboard box communities that are basically ignored by the rest of the world unless some asshole worried about property values/businessman that owns the land/etc reports them and it's bulldozed-- if nobody rats on them, the Hooverville stays up, and it's occupants are left alone. There was a construction site (boarded up, of course) in the middle of New York city a few years back that was left alone for a year and, when the builders returned, was found to contain a thriving homeless/druggie community. 2.) CRAZY LIBERTARIANS/ASSORTED REBELS. Alaska, for example, is FULL of people that say, "I don't wanna pay no goddamned taxes" and just take off to be muskrat trappers or whatever-- and the IRS sure isn't chasing after them up there. There are also enclaves of Rightist Militia Members/Hippies in the middle of nowhere (Montana and Oregon being the respective hotspots) that escape notice fairly well. So these were my examples. Then, I realized-- (living in Los Angeles)-- there's another population, probably FAR more important in terms of being invisible-- that's also far more of a community than homeless people or wierdo libertarians-- ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Three are dozens of people crossing the US/Mexico border a day-- and, upon reaching the country (unless they're lucky and have fake papers), they live in the US, completely out of the jurisdiction of the government, hiding from the larger population in absolute plain sight. They aren't citizens, so they don't pay taxes, and they don't get any government benifits (i.e. medicaid, welfare, etc.) There are exclusively immigrant communities out in the California/Texas/New Mexico Badlands, some of which are raided by the INS-- but not all of them. They, like witches/wizards, are hiding in plain sight: how many people in America see crowds of people waiting huddled for the bus at 5 in the morning? See the men swarming on street corners looking for work? See the men on the sidewalks selling flowers and oranges? The truth is, everone SEES them, but everyone looks away. (*thinks illegal immigrants should be entitled to welfare and public education*) The "dropouts", whatever their political orientation, are actively hiding from the system, while both the homeless and the illegal immigrants are invisible because people don't want to see them. However, all three groups are doing-- with varying degrees of success-- what the wizarding community is doing, WITHOUT the aid of the hundreds of obfuscatory spells that are named and hinted at throughout HP canon. If they can get away with it unaided, the wizards ought to be able to pull it off in a snap. Also, the wizarding world seems to operate somewhat like Native American tribes do within the United States: they have their OWN justice and law enforecement systems, and are to a very large degree autonomous. I think that there's a sort of gentlemen's agreement between the British government and the wizarding one that the two groups will remain separate-- with shrouded communication between the higher-ups in case of emergency. I also highly suspect that there's some sort of secret office within the British gov't that's in charge of relations with the Ministry of Magic-- but knowledge of what they actually DO never leaves the office (MIB). I think they communicate--like Sirius Black's escape, for instance, or in case of any large-scale war. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, the Wizards do not have electricity. but they do have plumbing. > (Btw, how do they wash their laundry without wash machines?) And let's > say their toilet breaks down. Do they have their 'own' plumbers, so that > they don't have to call the Muggle plumbers, etc.? And when something > like this DOES happen, since the Wizards are totally inept in anything > Muggle-related, won't their existence suddenly be crystal clear? Say for > instance, that a nosy neighbor, or a meter reader, or a survey taker, > knocks on their door. Doesn't a Muggle knocking on a Wizard's door, > notice that this house is somehow different? No electricity, no lights? > How does a Wizard deal with a Muggle, when it comes to it, if he is so > inept in Muggle things? Why, if there are Muggle studies in school, dont' > we ever read about them? Why is Arthur so excited about 'eklectricity' -- > don't they learn about it in Muggle studies? Do these Wizards think > they're so smart, knowing curses and potions and charms, when they know > absolutely zero about the world around them -- biology, science, > technology, etc.?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Uhm, they have spells for ALL that shit. Biology I think they OUGHT to know, but technology-- what do they need it for? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I dont' think it's legal to live with a telephone. How, can the > Wizards contact an ambulance, policeman, or fireman in case of an > emergency? Do they even HAVE an emergency squad? Or are wizards so > magical that they can worm their way out of any emergency -- fire, > burglary, and illness? <<<<<<<<<< Well, evidently they DO-- I mean, if there's a squad of wizards showing up at Privet Drive on call for Unauthorized Use of AMgic by Minors, I would assume that they've got, like, emergency services-- I mean, seriously! Why on earth are you assuming they HAVEN'T got all this stuff? >>>>>>>>>About schooling -- I don't understand why such simple subjects such as > making objects fly and flying on brooms are only taught at age eleven. > what did the kids do until then? Went to regular Muggle school? Ginny was > a teeny kid when Charlie was already disapparating and her father was > traveling by Floo Powder. Do you mean to say that she didnt catch on to > any of the spells and charms her family was using? She had to stay in > chains and wait eleven years to start training to live the life her > family lives every day?<<<<<<<<<< As opposed to "muggle" teenagers having to wait, say, sixteen years to get their drivers' licenses, which is TOTALLY different, right? >;} >>>>>>> What if Ginny Weasley went to buy a new dress > robe, and couldn't decide which color. She can't owl her mother and wait > two days in the store for an answer! Why dont they have cell phones or > public phones or something? .... Additionally, I don't know how the Muggle kids survive without the > electronic pastimes out kids can't be without. No TV. No movies. No > computers. No electronic games. No Nintendo. It is highly unrealistic to > expect all of the Wizarding kiddies to sit and read or play card games > all day. What a highly boring life. Why would a child want to have such a > life when there is such an exciting electronic life out there? <<<<<<<<<< Actually, this bothers me not because you're being silly and assuming that the only spells in the wizarding world are the ones we've seen, but because you're seriously thinking with a really narrow and very priveligedupper/middle class viewpoint-- Poverty? What's that? I mean, I do hope you realize that there are a hell of a lot of people in the REAL world that don't have cell phones, are earning minimum wage or below and don't have money for pay phones-- some, I'll go far enough to say, that don't have phones PERIOD-- that just DON'T HAVE THE MONEY for video games and the internet and all that electronica shit that you can't fathom life for wizard kids without-- gah. ;P From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 04:40:24 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:40:24 -0500 Subject: Giants In-Reply-To: <9lcjbu+107bb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24190 Next, I'm wondering, are giants magical by nature-we know they are "magical creatures" in a sense, but if giants and humans can have brats, then aren't they just impossibly (except it is possible) big humans? Perhaps Giants are simply another species of human? We are Homo sapiens sapiens (Man who knows he knows.) Neanderthals were Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (Supposedly not quite as bright because they don?t know they know.) Giants could presumably be Homo sapiens immensus (Really big man.) This would mean that Giants and ordinary humans can breed, though I?m not sure if their offspring would be sterile or not. Then, could a giant have magical power? If so, why did Hagrid think he might not have been invited to Hogwarts due to his mother? I believe we learn in GoF that being half-Giant is something of a stigma in the Wizard world. As such, it is unlikely that half-giants would be considered for Hogwarts due to their unsavory heritage. Fortunately, Dumbledore is not known for being a Bigot. And then: what if a witch marries a giant? Wouldn't she die in childbirth? Or are babies normally sized? All right, this might seem a bit disgusting, but If you can magically expand a Muggle Car Trunk, who?s to say you wouldn?t be able to magically expand a uterus? It seems like the sensible thing to do. And if you can expand the uterus, why not the birth canal during labor? Or maybe you could just apparate the baby right out of there. Just a thought. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gmccann at slnsw.gov.au Wed Aug 15 05:47:34 2001 From: gmccann at slnsw.gov.au (Gabriel McCann) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 05:47:34 -0000 Subject: Dates Message-ID: <9ld2dm+ppsa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24191 I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out before but does anybody else think it's significant that the years in which Harry attends Hogwarts 1991 for volume 1 through to 1997 for volume 7 means that his last year at Hogwarts is the same year that Volume 1 was published. I hope I've got the dates right. I'm going by Nearly Headless Nick's Deathday Party in Vol. 2 From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Aug 15 05:54:16 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 05:54:16 -0000 Subject: Insanely long and detailed reply (was Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World) In-Reply-To: <3B79DFE6.2AD88824@texas.net> Message-ID: <9ld2q8+26e7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24192 > > > Additionally, I don't know how the Muggle kids survive without the > > electronic pastimes out kids can't be without. No TV. No movies. No > > computers. No electronic games. No Nintendo. It is highly unrealistic > > to expect all of the Wizarding kiddies to sit and read or play card > > games > > all day. What a highly boring life. Why would a child want to have > > such a life when there is such an exciting electronic life out there? > > How old *are* you, dear? This is a ridiculous statement. Nobody ever > died of boredom before these things were invented. Children sit and read > and played games, or they had jobs or chores to do, or they pursued > hobbies. Have you never heard of what many families do now, National > Turn It Off or something, where families try to do family activities > instead of gravitate to the TV? Honest, people had interesting, full > lives even before 1950. > Oh c'mon..you're not really saying that it's illegal not to have a telephone..we have one but don't answer it...courtesy of caller id.. do you really think reading and playing card games isn't as much fun as Nintendo? Ya know, I like computer games, I love my computer...but when I grew up we played lots of card games (go fish, war, canasta, hearts, bridge) and did a ton of reading.....in my house right now we don't have computer games for kids or tv, we read out loud, we go for walks, we discuss the birds....do you really think Nintendo is better than reading? You've got to be kidding...truly, you were joking? Susan From cimorene21 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 15 06:26:28 2001 From: cimorene21 at hotmail.com (cimorene21 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:26:28 -0000 Subject: Insanely long and detailed reply (was Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World) In-Reply-To: <9ld2q8+26e7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ld4mk+4adk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24193 *twiddles thumbs and apologizes for the hostile self-righteous nature of previous post* From eliasberg at ioc.net Wed Aug 15 06:54:50 2001 From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:54:50 -0000 Subject: Lupin's brief / suitcase In-Reply-To: <9lcdpe+u068@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ld6bq+m2jt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24194 Or perhaps JKR saw the Music Man too many times. D From katzefan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 06:59:10 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:59:10 -0000 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions In-Reply-To: <005401c124ff$6a08b320$0101a8c0@hp> Message-ID: <9ld6ju+nmqn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24195 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" wrote: > IIRC, Parseltongues can actually control serpents, right? So, if there was a > snake animagus, could a Parseltongue make him do whatever he (the > Parseltongue) wanted? > > Also, (and hopefully this hasn't been discussed too much before) > Parseltongue seems to work on dragons. During the first task, the Horntail's > head is swaying "like a snake before it's charmer." "'Come on,' Harry > hissed, swerving tantalizingly above her, 'come on, come and get me...up you > get now...'" And then she rears. What with the snake imagery and the hissing > (and obeying), it seems obvious to me that Harry was speaking Parseltongue. > But I also think that JKR would have mentioned it in the book, especially > since it was only obvious to me upon closer examination. Of course, it's > possible that I'm just slow and it went without saying. > > One last thing. Do you think there is such thing as a Parseltongue for an > animal other than serpents? Obviously, it wouldn't be called > Parseltongue.... > > Natalie > natabat at c... > http://www.natabat.barrysworld.net That's an interesting point. JKR may not have mentioned it because she (I think) likes occasionally to see how wide awake her readers may be, and it wasn't (at least in this instance) as if the reader would miss something major if they missed this. I'll be interested to see, though, whether it comes up again in a future book. From katzefan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 07:05:27 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:05:27 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <3B792ACA.5637.44F8E0C@localhost> Message-ID: <9ld6vn+irnn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24196 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" < DaveH47 at m...> wrote: > On 14 Aug 2001, at 1:57, Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > First American Edition, July 2000. Page 712, second paragraph from the > > bottom. "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do > > not stand united, there is no hope for any of us." They must have > > fixed it later, the way they fixed the Priori Incantatem thing. I > > figured it was probably a mistake - a lot of people have trouble with > > double negatives - but with the gleam in Dumbledore's eye and all > > that... just as well to make sure! I have the Raincoast 2000 version (published in Canada) & this has been corrected in that book. > > Not as crucial, but in the same league is this error near the top of > page 325: > > "[Madame Maxime] wasn't exactly hard to miss." > > Umm... Shouldn't that be that she *was* hard to miss?? NOT corrected -- good catch!!! (or: wasn't exactly easy to miss) > > Also this one, top of p. 685: > > "How did your father subdue you?" said Dumbledore. > "The Imperius Curse," Moody said. > > But this is *Crouch* speaking! > Corrected. > Are these errors corrected in the later printings? > > > -- Dave From katzefan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 07:08:58 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:08:58 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <9lc4u3+qr73@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ld76a+mkg8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24197 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" < DaveH47 at m...> wrote: > > On 14 Aug 2001, at 1:57, Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > > > > Not as crucial, but in the same league is this error near the top > of > > page 325: > > > > "[Madame Maxime] wasn't exactly hard to miss." > > > > Umm... Shouldn't that be that she *was* hard to miss?? > > No! Madame Maxine is [presumably] at least part Giant. She's NOT > hard to miss! She's quite big! > If she's NOT HARD to miss, then that means it's easy to miss her . (Really love contemplating double negatives at 3 a.m. ....) (Alert, alert, brain going into a tailspin ....) From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Wed Aug 15 09:53:27 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:53:27 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <9lcen9+anbg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ldgqn+off4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24198 Bente13 at p... wrote: >>> Madame Maxime would be hard to miss due to the fact that she's really big. If you figure in the negative... she wasn't exactly easy to miss or it would be hard to miss her. Agree? <<< Impressed by your English Dente - tried learning Danish years ago and I cant imagine me being as good at that... What we have here is a colloqial expression - it seems in 'British English' as our US friends appear to be thrown by it. Its not a misprint. If someone particularly large/fat/loudmouthed/whatever was at a party and someone afterwards asked me if I had seen him there I might well say " Of course - he isnt exactly hard to miss". The idiomatic expression is exactly right as used by Harry about Madame Maxine. He intends to say, and does so clearly and in standard and grammatically correct colloquial english, that If Madame M was ppresent at a particlar occasion she would stand out a mile. Edis From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 10:52:15 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:52:15 -0000 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions In-Reply-To: <9ld6ju+nmqn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ldk8v+d9ea@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24199 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" wrote: > > One last thing. Do you think there is such thing as a > Parseltongue for an > > animal other than serpents? Obviously, it wouldn't be called > > Parseltongue.... > > > > Natalie > > That's an interesting point. JKR may not have mentioned it > because she (I think) likes occasionally to see how wide awake > her readers may be, and it wasn't (at least in this instance) as if > the reader would miss something major if they missed this. I'll > be interested to see, though, whether it comes up again in a > future book. I have wondered this before as well - and have two related questions. How does Sirius communicate with Crookshanks? We know that Crookshanks is part Kneazle - does this enable him to understand humans? Considering that most of the time Sirius was in his company he was a dog and therefore couldn't speak - how did they communicate in this instance? Animagi: When they are transformed as an animal, can they communicate with other animals of the same species? I seem to recall that Pettigrew could communicate with rats when he was trying to find Voldemort, so presumably Sirius can talk to dogs etc. Is this the case? We have discussed before that wizards don't choose the animal into which they transform, but that the animal chooses the wizard. This bears up pretty well when looking at the animagi we know about and looking at their various characteristics, although I would have made Rita Skeeter a cockroach, not a beetle. Does this mean that they have a particular affinity with that particular animal, and if so, is it too much of a stretch to imagine that they can communicate at all times with that particular animal and therefore be that animal's equivalent of a Parselmouth? Of course, it could be a moot point if my above proposition is correct, because they could transform in order to communicate at any time, anyway. Where does this leave Harry? He is a parselmouth and therefore has an affinity with snakes - does this mean he would want to be one as an animagus? I doubt it somehow. Catherine From djtarb at aol.com Wed Aug 15 11:52:15 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:52:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's Secret Message-ID: <8d.aed2b12.28abbc70@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24200 In a message dated Tue, 14 Aug 2001 5:36:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catz109 at hotmail.com writes: > Ok, this might sound stupid, but we are supposed to find out > something about Lily in a future book. Do you think she could have > been having a baby when Voldy killed her? Harry won't know, because > she might not have told anybody at that time, or they don't want to > upset him. > > My own notion is that Harry is powerful because he is descended from Godric Griffindor (through James) and Salazar Slytherin (through Lily). No textev, of course, just "how I would write it". Diane in PA From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 15 12:13:40 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:13:40 -0000 Subject: DADA teachers In-Reply-To: <9lcb9n+7dil@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ldp1k+6so9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24201 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > I have a question about something that you guys may have discussed at > length previously, but I'll risk it anyway.... > > We've heard, in practically every book so far, that Snape seriously > covets the DADA position (although, in all fairness, not from Snape > himself). This has often been discussed before. The consensus seems to be that Snape's alleged desire for the DADA post is a red herring concocted by Snape & Dumbledore to create the impression that Snape is eager to ally himself with "the Dark Arts" - to what end, we do not yet know. - CMC From nausicaa at atlantic.net Wed Aug 15 12:16:39 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jenny K.) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Insanely long and detailed reply (was Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World) Message-ID: <997877799.3b7a68279fa6b@webmail.atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24202 Quoting Amanda Lewanski : > "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > > > Isnt' there a census or something? Doesn't > every citizen have to pay > > taxes or whatever? This just occurred to me -- dunno how it works in Britain, but in the US taxes are only paid based on income...how many of the wizards have Muggle-jobs? I'm assuming most of them are employed somehow...but it seems that everyone who mentions having a job is involved in something wizard-y (dragons, MoM, teaching, etc). Also, this is just my opinion, but perhaps those who are more involved in the Muggle world show up on the census, tax rolls, etc while those who aren't, well, don't. It's also possible that the wizarding world takes their own taxes, census, etc and sends that information/$$/etc to the higher-ups in Muggle gov't so that they can be included (if it's even needed). Jenny K. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent through Atlantic.Net Webmail. Add some pizzazz to your company's Web site! Visit http://design.atlantic.net to learn more. From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 12:29:18 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:29:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's Secret In-Reply-To: <8d.aed2b12.28abbc70@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24203 My own notion is that Harry is powerful because he is descended from Godric Griffindor (through James) and Salazar Slytherin (through Lily). No textev, of course, just "how I would write it". ?You can speak Parseltongue, Harry,? said Dumbledore calmly, ?because Lord Voldemort ? who is the last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin ? can speak Parseltongue.? (CoS, Page 331, US Edition) According to this, Voldemort is the last descendant of Voldemort so Harry couldn?t be. Also, we know that Lilly was in Gryffindor. On another note, since Harry can only speak Parseltongue because the gift was transferred to him by Voldemort?s backfired spell, I don?t think he has any innate affinity with snakes. He?s more likely to change into something for suitable for his nature. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ina.Franken at frankens.de Wed Aug 15 12:32:58 2001 From: Ina.Franken at frankens.de (Ina.Franken at frankens.de) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:32:58 -0000 Subject: Lupin's brief / suitcase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ldq5q+q3lg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24204 Maybe he has a tag on his suitcase, because the luggage stays on the train and will be transported (by House Elves?) to Hogwarts like the student's trunks. Do we know if the trunks have name tags too? Ina From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Aug 15 13:15:58 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:15:58 -0000 Subject: Wands and Magical Ability, Part Two In-Reply-To: <47.f568e14.28ab15e6@aol.com> Message-ID: <9ldsme+b3h8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24205 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > > STUFF FROM CANON: WAND IDIOSYNCRASY AND POWER > > The best place to get information on wands, of course, is from Mr. > Ollivander, the premier British wandmaker... > He doesn't tell Harry what his wand is best for???but he does tell him that it shares its magical substance with Lord Voldemort's... > We also find out that whether he knows it or not, Harry is a talented wizard... > So is Harry Super?... > > > There are two parts of the human personality that determine whether one is "super". One is talent, the other character. Talent is what you start out having, what you have to work with: speed, or strength, your native skill or intelligence, a knack for music or drawing or stringing together words. Character, on the other hand, determined by what you do with your talent. It is within your control, and is therefore the most difficult part of the human equation. Mr. Ollivander tells Harry "I think we must expect great things from you", based on several facts of which only he, Dumbledore, and now Hagrid and Harry are aware. (1) Harry's wand and Voldemort's shared the same core (a feather from Fawkes' tail); (2) Voldemort had been a great wizard, giving evidence to the effect that his wand must have been great; (3) The second wand (brother to the first)was presumably also a great wand; (4)that wand had chosen Harry. As Dumbledore later explains, he and Ollivander had both been waiting to see what new wizard would be chosen by the second wand made from Fawkes' tail feather, the implication being that whoever it was would also be a powerful tlaent. Ollivander was delighted to answer the riddle (no pun intended), and more delighted that the wizard should be none other than the famous Harry Potter. Further, great wizarding talent, like other human talents, does seem to run in families. James and Lily were both powerful wizards: Head Boy and Head Girl in their 7th years at Hogwarts(as the brilliant Tom Riddle was and the brilliant Hermione is likely to be); James manages to become an Animagus in his 5th year, a difficult feat for even full grown wizards (a good wand for transfiguration, indeed); Lily works a charm that presumably defeats Voldemort's Avada Kedavra curse. Point, Harry gets it honestly. Now comes the hard part. What good is talent if you do not develop it? Would Tiger Woods still be a great golfer if he never practiced? How about if he had not started playing at such a young age? What if his father had steered him into baseball instead? How about Michael Jordan? They say he practiced harder than anyone else in the NBA his entire career, and that is why he was so much better, so much more than just a talent. How many school dances, or neighborhood baseball games did these guys miss growing up, in order to perfect their talents? What kind of discipline did it take, where did they get the will power, who helped them stay focused enough to achieve so much more than any others in their fields before? The purpose of a school like Hogwarts (or any good school, for that matter) is to harness talent, direct it, train it and build the character of the person using it. Tom Riddle's character was already scarred before he came to Hogwarts. He knew of his father's abandonment of his mother, and of her tragic death. Harry, on the other hand, was rather innocent, having only the cupboard under the stair as a frame of reference. He had been given a life (thanks to Dumbledore)and a story about the passing of his parents thanks to the Dursleys) that left no room for guilt or recrimination. He came to Hogwarts without the baggage of hatred, envy, anger, etc. There he discovers his potential. He gets repeated affirmation that "he could be great". Powerful, admirable people care about him. He discovers his flying talent, makes his first friends, and then has to defend them and himself from an unspeakably evil menace. How's that for character building conditions. Lose everything, gain everything, risk losing everything again. Harry is not super, except to the extend that all our heroes are super. They have the super ability to command themselves to push on, when others might quit, to try when others fear failing, to commit themselves, when others can not decide. Harry seeks the truth about himself, defends the good he sees in others, and hopes eternally. THese are in his character. The magic talent is gravy. 4FR [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorbandb at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 13:24:03 2001 From: dorbandb at yahoo.com (dorbandb at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:24:03 -0000 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions In-Reply-To: <005401c124ff$6a08b320$0101a8c0@hp> Message-ID: <9ldt5j+1bti@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24206 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" wrote: > Also, (and hopefully this hasn't been discussed too much before) > Parseltongue seems to work on dragons. During the first task, the Horntail's head is swaying "like a snake before it's charmer." "'Come on,' Harry hissed, swerving tantalizingly above her, 'come on, come and get me...up you get now...'" And then she rears. What with the snake imagery and the hissing (and obeying), it seems obvious to me that Harry was speaking Parseltongue. > But I also think that JKR would have mentioned it in the book, especially since it was only obvious to me upon closer examination. Of course, it's possible that I'm just slow and it went without saying. One last thing. Do you think there is such thing as a Parseltongue for an animal other than serpents? Obviously, it wouldn't be called Parseltongue.... > > Natalie Hi Natalie, I like the notion of dragons speaking parseltongue. Some previously posted thoughts below: ...regarding the serpent, basilisk and dragon; we know that in HP, at least, regular snakes (the boa) and basilisks of the serpentine variety speak/understand parseltongue. We have no indication yet that the basilisks of the dragon variety speak parseltongue. I suggest that it takes so many highly trained wizards to control the dragons (in GoF) because they're not communicating very well - in fact NO ONE in the wizard world communicates very well with the dragons, because IMO, the *dragons speak parseltongue*! I don't really intend to say that dragons, per Canon, speak parseltongue,(Although I think Natalie's impression of of Harry's communication with the dragon (above) is thought-provoking). It is clear, however, that both basilisks *and* snakes speak parseltongue in JKR's world. I am only pointing out that the way JKR seems to be using the term *basilisk*, as well as the muggle and mythological definitions of that term, lead me to muse about the possibility that dragons MIGHT also speak/understand parseltongue. I am pretty convinced that dragons speak parseltongue (regardless of the lack of Canonical evidence). Dragons are very wise and magical creatures and probably not only speak parseltongue, but are magically multilingual - far more than Barty Crouch - speaking all manner of tongues and dialects. Prediction: Nagini will advise Voldemort of the dragons' ability to communicate via parseltongue and they will begin efforts to recruit the dragons to their evil cause! With Norbert's help, Harry will convince the dragons to unite with the wizarding world (and the House elves and the Giants) to conquer Voldemort and Nagini... Brian From bohners at pobox.com Wed Aug 15 13:00:44 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:00:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Typos References: <9ldgqn+off4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <041201c1258e$c2ad3700$7e17fea9@bohners> No: HPFGUIDX 24207 > If someone particularly large/fat/loudmouthed/whatever was at a party > and someone afterwards asked me if I had seen him there I might well > say " Of course - he isnt exactly hard to miss". But it should be "...he isn't exactly hard to SPOT", not miss. If you say someone isn't hard to MISS, you're saying that they're easily overlooked. Saying that the enormous Madame Maxime "isn't exactly hard to miss" is nonsensical. I have to agree with those who've called it as an error. -- Rebecca J. (Anderson) Bohner Specializing in Snape, Moody and George at http://www.sugarquill.com/authors/rjanderson.html http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/R_J_Anderson From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Wed Aug 15 13:36:11 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:36:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Facilitators (was Insanely long and detailed reply (was Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding Wor ld)) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24208 > > Also, this is just my opinion, but perhaps those who are > more involved in the Muggle world show up on the census, > tax rolls, etc while those who aren't, well, don't. > It's also possible that the wizarding world takes their > own taxes, census, etc and sends that information/$$/etc > to the higher-ups in Muggle gov't so that they can be > included (if it's even needed). I've always presumed (and I know there are fanfics which have explored this) that there are Ministry Facilitators who, with a combination of Duplication Spells, Switching Spells and Memory Charms, have created a setup of false papers for wizards and witches (including squibs). We also know that Gringotts changes Muggle money - they must have some sort of relationship with the Bank of England that swaps wizard gold for pounds - then the Muggles melt it down & turn it into gold bars or something. There must be some sort of interface - otherwise, how would *harry* (who presumably wouldn't have a Muggle birth certificate in the absence of facilitators) even be able to go to muggle primary school? There might be a *shadow* school that Muggles think exists, which all the muggleborn/muggleraised and "half and half" students "attend" in the minds and records of the Muggle society (although of course immediate family knows where they are), with school reports and everything else - magically created - to satisfy the authorities. I actually think it's very well organized, but it just happens outside the scope of what Muggles see and also outside the scope of what Wizards see & deal with on a daily basis. Of course, my belief that the Malfoys are significant investors in Grunnings has no relationship to reality at all........ From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 13:39:55 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:39:55 -0000 Subject: DADA teachers In-Reply-To: <9lcb9n+7dil@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ldu3b+hrnk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24209 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: <-snip-> > if Snape wants it so badly, and if it's hard to find anyone else >who does, do you suppose there is a reason why Dumbledore doesn't >just give it to him and finds someone else to teach Potions? <-snip-> Hi! I'm a newbie too, so I hope my answer isn't old hat....I've always thought of two reasons why Snape hasn't been given the DADA position. (1) It may lie in WHY he wants the job - if Snape only wants the DADA position because of the prestige factor (or some other vague ego- massaging reason), Dumbledore would probably want to keep Snape away. We've never heard Snape's reason for wanting that position. Perhaps Dumbledore doesn't want to stir up any buried ego-to- jealousy, jealousy-to-Deatheater feelings in Snape. (2) In PoA, Lupin said "This potion is the only thing that helps. I'm very lucky to be working alongside Professor Snape; there aren't many wizards who are up to making it." So perhaps Dumbledore is keeping Snape in the position where Snape can do the most good (and where is true talents lie). Perhaps it is in Hogwarts' best interest to have a truly talented Potions teacher than to switch Snape to DADA (because even though the DADA position is hard to fill/cursed, we've seen 4 different people teaching it...)? And since Snape seems to be setting himself up for major intrigue in the next book, he'll probably barely have time to give to his Potions class, let alone pine for DADA. I can hardly wait to see who will teach DADA in Harry's fifth year! From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 13:55:27 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:55:27 -0000 Subject: universities / WizWorld structure In-Reply-To: <9lctd1+nm0s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ldv0f+t3vu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24210 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > > > > Funny you should bring that up... I know the > > following has probably been asked many times, but > > witches and wizards seem to begin work immediately > > after Hogwarts (or the Continental equivalents), > > right? Are there any wizarding universities? Don't > > any of them get Ph.D's? > > According to JKR, there are no Wizarding universities or colleges. I've always figured that there was some kind of apprenticeship program in the Wizarding World. You graduate from Hogwarts, and then are put into a basic-level apprentiship (sort of like the old ways of training solicitors and nurses). For example, Bill Weasley would, after Hogwarts, go to Gringotts and begin his work as an apprentice/assistant (much like what Pearcy is doing now). After a period of time, Bill goes out on his own as a full-fledged member of Gringotts. Your thoughts? From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Aug 15 14:03:50 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:03:50 -0000 Subject: Insanely long and detailed reply (was Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World) In-Reply-To: <3B79DFE6.2AD88824@texas.net> Message-ID: <9ldvg6+jqgi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24211 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > They know their world, and have no need of ours, and vice versa. Much like what would happen if you took a New York City native and dropped him in the Australian outback, and vice versa.> Or take a native Texan and drop her in the middle of New York City :-P > Well, a long one. Wonder if anyone got this far? Ten points to your > Houses, diehards.> This obnoxious New Yorker is eagerly awaiting her 10 Ravenclaw House points. Seriously, though, excellent explanation, Amanda! However the Wizard world deals with Muggles, I'd give my Muggle existence up in a second if it meant I could go and teach at Hogwarts. In fact, both Ebony and I are waiting patiently for our resumes to be reviewed by Dumbledore. --jenny from ravenclaw **************************************** From litalex at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 14:42:03 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:42:03 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities / WizWorld structure References: <9ldv0f+t3vu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007c01c12598$76f1cf60$4d06bacb@hal9000> No: HPFGUIDX 24212 Hello, Steve wrote: > > According to JKR, there are no Wizarding universities or colleges. And then proposed about the similarities of the wizarding world with our medieval world. But there *are* universities in medieval times. The nobility didn't use them, yes, but they still existed, no? (for scribes and some such, iirc) So, I assume that Malfoys wouldn't deign to attend a university, but I have no doubt that the Weasleys would do so if given the opportunity. little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 15:00:43 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:00:43 -0000 Subject: Another trap door question In-Reply-To: <9lbenl+duok@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9le2qr+3ieq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24213 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Has anyone else ever found the concept of a trap door in a third-floor > corridor just a bit odd? Try to picture the fall down through the > school and into the earth . . . see the problem? > > There's an answer, though: it's magic! > > Amy Z If the castle was built on a mountain top, it is unlikely that it was built on a totally flat piece of ground. There aren't too many mesas in Great Britain. So it is entirely possible that the third floor (fourth floor to us Yanks) in that portion of the castle is only a floor or two above ground at that point. Another possiblility would be the landing with the Devil's Snare was on the 1st floor, and passage to the key room went down. Marcus From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Wed Aug 15 16:36:15 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:36:15 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <9ldgqn+off4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9le8dv+ubr1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24214 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote: > > What we have here is a colloqial expression - it seems in 'British > English' as our US friends appear to be thrown by it. Its not a > misprint. > > If someone particularly large/fat/loudmouthed/whatever was at a party > and someone afterwards asked me if I had seen him there I might well > say " Of course - he isnt exactly hard to miss". > > The idiomatic expression is exactly right as used by Harry about > Madame Maxine. He intends to say, and does so clearly and in standard > and grammatically correct colloquial english, that If Madame M was > ppresent at a particlar occasion she would stand out a mile. > > Edis Ah! So what you're saying is that even if Harry is saying the exact opposite of what it actually true, it's still right? Interesting! I guess my understanding of colloquial English still isn't what I thought it was. Bente From john at walton.to Wed Aug 15 16:41:07 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:41:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Typos In-Reply-To: <041201c1258e$c2ad3700$7e17fea9@bohners> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24215 Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner said: > But it should be "...he isn't exactly hard to SPOT", not miss. If you say > someone isn't hard to MISS, you're saying that they're easily overlooked. > > Saying that the enormous Madame Maxime "isn't exactly hard to miss" is > nonsensical. I have to agree with those who've called it as an error. I agree, although it is a bit confusing with the triple negative. Here's the logic: "[Madame Maxime] wasn't exactly hard to miss." means "She was easy to miss" [because she was small, quiet -- not true] IMO what JKR means here (and I'm not exactly unsure we've all done this with double negatives) is: "She wasn't exactly easy to miss." --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to "One, two! One, two! And through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back." --Lewis Carroll, "The Jabberwocky" ________________________________ From lamppost42 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 15 16:49:30 2001 From: lamppost42 at hotmail.com (lamppost42 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:49:30 -0000 Subject: Magical Genes: Unification Theory In-Reply-To: <3B79D2BE.A0706DB1@atlantic.net> Message-ID: <9le96q+qjr1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24216 Let me see if I can summarize the arguments so far. 1. Magical ability is an inherited trait. A person is either magical or nonmagical. 2. Among magical people, there is great variation of magical skills and degree of power. Most of the discussion I've read so far tends to lump magical skill/ degree of power and the state of being magical into one category. Several people have promoted a "multiple gene" theory. This is much closer to how gene expression really works than a simple dominant/ recessive model. I would like to submit my pet magical theory to the forces of logic that preside on this list . SOMEWHAT-GRAND UNIFICATION THEORY I agree that magical skill/power is as elusive as athletic prowess. A person may have certain inherited traits, such as the ability to build high-density muscle, which is a boon to athletes, but if the person lacks the ambition or perseverence to develop said skill, they're not going to be a great athlete. This idea is not new. I've seen variants of it posted by several people in this topic alone. To sort of go back on myself, of the earliest and simplest (shades of Occam?) theories I've read simply says that there is a gene to determine whether a person is a muggle or a wizard. But I wondered "What is it PHYSICALLY that makes a person muggle or wizard." Determining the phenotype, not the genotype. My answer came like a bolt out of the blue (pardon the pun). Electricity. Our bodies move, metabolize, and react through a series of electrical impulses. We've learned to harness it to do everything from electrocution to electrophoresis. We've based our society and technology on it. We know from the cannon that in large doses, magic interferes with electricity. Perhaps magic is an alternative source of energy, fundamentally different from electricity. It pervades wizarding bodies, homes, and society in the same way electricity does ours. I suspect that a general misunderstanding of electricity may be a stumbling block for muggle/ wizard relations, especially since the muggle industrial revolution. It could also explain Arthur Weasley's naivete' about muggle artifacts... My sincerest apologies and most debasing grovelling if this is a repeat of someone else. Anybody want a peanut? Joy to the World! Mun42 From LFerg80819 at aol.com Wed Aug 15 17:14:12 2001 From: LFerg80819 at aol.com (LFerg80819 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:14:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Typos Message-ID: <81.eb2e993.28ac07e4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24217 In a message dated 08/15/2001 12:38:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bente13 at peoplepc.com writes: > Of course - he isn't exactly hard to miss". > Depending on the tone of voice, it could be considered sarcasm. Lisa (from the US) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lamppost42 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 15 17:23:02 2001 From: lamppost42 at hotmail.com (lamppost42 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:23:02 -0000 Subject: Magical Genes: Unification Theory In-Reply-To: <9le96q+qjr1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9leb5m+1hhv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24218 Oh yes! A clarification that I forgot to mention in my previous post. I suggest that the magical/electical phenotype is not limited to humans, ergo magical creatures. This would also help explain why the flobberworm is classified as a magical creature. "Fantastic Beasts" reports that flobberworms are used in magical potions, but lists no other magical properties. Plenty of nonmagical creatures are used in potions (see lexicon animals list), so the flobberworm's (annelidia magica?) innate magic can probably be detected with a simple spell. Sorry for the omission. Hope this all makes sense! Mundungs42 OT PS: Mundungus derives from the Spanish word for smelly tobacco of dubious quality. I can't WAIT to meet Mundungus in later books, and will be personally affronted if he's killed off before we get to know him. From lamppost42 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 15 17:23:02 2001 From: lamppost42 at hotmail.com (lamppost42 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:23:02 -0000 Subject: Magical Genes: Unification Theory In-Reply-To: <9le96q+qjr1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9leb5m+s7u6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24219 Oh yes! A clarification of my previous post. I suggest that the magical/electical phenotype is not limited to humans, ergo magical creatures. This would also help explain why the flobberworm is classified as a magical creature. "Fantastic Beasts" reports that flobberworms are used in magical potions, but lists no other magical properties. Plenty of nonmagical creatures are used in potions (see lexicon animals list), so the flobberworm's (annelidia magica?) innate magic can probably be detected with a simple spell. Sorry for the omission. Hope this all makes sense! Mundungs42 OT PS: Mundungus derives from the Spanish word for smelly tobacco of dubious quality. I can't WAIT to meet Mundungus in later books, and will be personally affronted if he's killed off before we get to know him. From vderark at bccs.org Wed Aug 15 17:32:31 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:32:31 -0000 Subject: universities / WizWorld structure In-Reply-To: <007c01c12598$76f1cf60$4d06bacb@hal9000> Message-ID: <9lebnf+6mk2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24220 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > Steve wrote: > > > According to JKR, there are no Wizarding universities or colleges. > And then proposed about the similarities of the wizarding world with > our medieval world. > > But there *are* universities in medieval times. The nobility didn't use > them, yes, but they still existed, no? Yes, there were, but there aren't in the Wizarding World. Steve From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Aug 15 21:14:11 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:14:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's Secret In-Reply-To: References: <8d.aed2b12.28abbc70@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B7A83B3.24188.9931037@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 24221 On 15 Aug 2001, at 7:29, Alfredo Ram?rez wrote: > On another note, since Harry can only speak Parseltongue because the > gift was transferred to him by Voldemort?s backfired spell, I don?t > think he has any innate affinity with snakes. He?s more likely to > change into something for suitable for his nature. But what I'm hoping is that it will turn out that snakes are not inherently evil in the Potterverse. (It goes against Dumbledore's assertions that what we choose to become is more important than what we're born as.) On another point -- If it's possible to talk to snakes, can someone with the gift talk to other animals? (Could Goderic Gryffindor talk to lions, etc.?) -- Dave From klhurt at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 22:08:05 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stan Shunpike & Tom the Innkeeper + North Dakota In-Reply-To: <9lctd1+nm0s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010815220805.30878.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24222 --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: >These folks do not attend Hogwarts, >they move directly from basic >schooling in the home or in small >communal school settings into trades. >Examples include Stan Shunpike and Tom >the Innkeeper. How did you reach the conclusion that they never attended Hogwarts? OT: Would someone who lives in North Dakota please email me privatelt at ? Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From joym999 at aol.com Wed Aug 15 22:12:09 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:12:09 -0000 Subject: Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <20010814.190632.-183923.2.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9les3p+bgvu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24223 I have to respond to Mindys post, but I want to start by saying that while I agree with a lot of what all the other people responding to her post have said, I wish that others responding, bitchboy in particular, had chosen to respond more politely. > I don't understand > how an entire POPULATION, an entire WORLD, can manage to always, always, > keep their existence a secret. Why not? I think that the charm of JKRs writing is that it IS possible that wizards are doing just that, and in the back of all our little muggle minds is the haunting suspicion that maybe, just maybe, the HP books are NOT fiction. > Do you mean to tell me, that the big government of > England, for instance, has never noticed this huge unusual population? > Isnt' there a census or something? [snip] > The government of England would know if a 'village' > of such exists, [snip] Well, then the government of England is a lot more organized than most, because my local government doesnt notice that the streets have potholes or that the children can not read, and the (U.S.) federal government doesnt even notice when their intelligence agencies have spies in them who take home millions of dollars in cash for years and years. And, as other people have noted, there are already lots of people that a census doesnt count and that governments dont notice. Seems to me it would be particularly easy to avoid notice if you could just hit the census taker with a Confundus Charm to make him think he had already counted you, or to put an Invisibility Spell on your house when the Building/Fire Inspector or other government official drops by. >how do they wash their laundry without wash machines? Wave their wands and say Cleanemupus Goodandshinyus? > Do they have their 'own' plumbers, so that > they don't have to call the Muggle plumbers, etc.? [snip] Obviously. > Say for > instance, that a nosy neighbor, or a meter reader, or a survey taker, > knocks on their door. Doesn't a Muggle knocking on a Wizard's door, > notice that this house is somehow different? No electricity, no lights? Again, magic is real handy here. Confundus Charms, Memory Charms, Invisibility, etc. > Also, I dont' think it's legal to live with a telephone I assume you mean "without," not "with." This strikes me as a particularly ethnocentric and astonishingly unaware thing to say. I live on Planet Earth (most of the time), and I assume you all do, too. The vast majority of people who share our pretty little planet have NEVER MADE A PHONE CALL, never flown on an airplane, never even seen a computer, and do not even own cars or refrigerators, let alone any of the other electronic devices those of us talking here do. Half the people on Earth live on small farms in rural areas and earn less than $1000/year. One-third of the people on Earth HAVE NO ELECTRICITY. Even in places like the U.S./Europe/Japan there are lots and lots of people who have no phones -- just go to anyplace where there is a bank of payphones in a poor neighborhood and see how many people are lined up waiting to use them. > Or are wizards so > magical that they can worm their way out of any emergency -- fire, > burglary, and illness Again, I would have thought that that was pretty obvious. Remember Hagrid saying "No car crash could have killed James and Lily Potter"? > If they walk around dressed up in robes on the street > all the time, aren't they immediately visible? Are they all in Muggle > clothing when they go to the train station? It is pretty clearly stated that the kids wear muggle clothes and change into their robes on the train. > How do Wizards manage to marry Muggles if the Muggle world is so foreign > and even contemptuous to Wizards? As has been pointed out, only some wizards are contemptous of muggles, and those wizards do not marry muggles because, like the Malfoys, they are concerned about maintaining "pure-blood." > > Additionally, I don't know how the Muggle kids survive without the > electronic pastimes out kids can't be without. No TV. No movies. No > computers. No electronic games. No Nintendo. Again, the vast majority of kids in the world survive quite nicely without all that stuff. There was no Nintendo or computers or electronic games when I was a kid, no TV when my parents were kids, and no movies when my grandparents were kids. We all survived quite well, thank you, as did the human race for tens of thousands of years before any of that was invented. Besides which, who needs Nintendo when there is magic to play with? > Another question that perturbs me is the apparent pride of being wizard, > and the knocking down of the Muggles. It smacks reminiscent of the Third > Reich-- WE are the master race, and THEY, are just lowly Muggles. Again, it is only certain wizards, like the Malfoys, who think this way, and that is exactly the point JKR is trying to make. Voldemort and his little Nazi-like supporters are bad, very bad, because they are bigoted and contemptuous of other ethnic groups (muggles, in this case) which they dont belong to. > Another question I have, is how they manage to support themselves with > only magical jobs. There are only so many people who can work for the > Ministry, and only so many people who can have shops in Hogsmeade. What > if someone wants to be a doctor? A lawyer? A scientist? This is a good question. The details of the wizarding economy are very vague. It is very unclear where their food comes from, how wizarding items are manufactured, etc. But just because the details are vague doesnt mean it is not possible for them to develop a thriving economy. Maybe the Malfoy fortune comes from using magic to extract salt from the sea, and selling it to Mortons Salt Company. Maybe the Potter fortune came from magical chicken farms, where the hens each lay 100 eggs a day. Who knows? It sounds to me like the mind-stretching, eye-opening aspects of the enchanting fantasy of the HP books have been lost on you, Mindy, and it is really too bad because, IMHO, that is one of the best things about these books. Please, we would all be better off if we remembered more often that there are many, many realities out there -- our own personal one is not necessarily shared with anyone else. --Joywitch From vderark at bccs.org Wed Aug 15 23:13:26 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:13:26 -0000 Subject: Stan Shunpike & Tom the Innkeeper + North Dakota In-Reply-To: <20010815220805.30878.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9levmm+kfnm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24224 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: > > >These folks do not attend Hogwarts, > >they move directly from basic > >schooling in the home or in small > >communal school settings into trades. > >Examples include Stan Shunpike and Tom > >the Innkeeper. > > How did you reach the conclusion that they never attended Hogwarts? Sorry, I wasn't clear. We don't know that they didn't, I was using them as examples if my premise was correct. In other words, given what I was suggesting up to that point, two people who might fit that description are Tom and Stan. There is nothing in the canon to prove that, although I would argue that there has to be a lot of people who never qualified for Hogwarts for that small a student population to make sense. I know some would argue that if Goyle can make it at Hogwarts, Stan should be able too, but that's not necessarily the case. Stan was exceptonally dim ("See you, Neville!" to someone whose identity has just been revealed to him as NOT Neville but instead a famous celebrity). Goyle is dim too, but his father was a Death Eater and I suspect has some connections. His father is dim too, from the sound of him, but might very well have skills that can come in useful, especially when combined with a lack of mental prowess. The point is that Stan and Tom are in the kinds of jobs that one would imagine non-educated folk to hold in a medieval-style society. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From relliott at jvlnet.com Wed Aug 15 23:17:47 2001 From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:17:47 -0500 Subject: Lily's secret References: <997913757.5039.8904.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000601c125e0$7fcc9320$65b191d8@jvlnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24225 > On another note, since Harry can only speak Parseltongue because the > gift was transferred to him by Voldemort's backfired spell, I don't > think he has any innate affinity with snakes. He's more likely to > change into something for suitable for his nature. But what I'm hoping is that it will turn out that snakes are not inherently evil in the Potterverse. (It goes against Dumbledore's assertions that what we choose to become is more important than what we're born as.) On another point -- If it's possible to talk to snakes, can someone with the gift talk to other animals? (Could Goderic Gryffindor talk to lions, etc.?) Or maybe a Phoenix... (Fawkes perhaps?) From kirstyanne.wright at btinternet.com Wed Aug 15 23:27:25 2001 From: kirstyanne.wright at btinternet.com (Kirsty Anne Wright) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:27:25 +0100 Subject: Very OT David Copperfield on UK (Digital TV) Movie Related sort of References: <997913757.5039.8904.l6@yahoogroups.com> <000601c125e0$7fcc9320$65b191d8@jvlnet.com> Message-ID: <013401c125e1$d8ca7220$f939073e@r4i2e0> No: HPFGUIDX 24226 Hi All For anyone interested in seeing Daniel Radcliffe in an earlier role, The version of David Copperfield he was in will be airing on the UK Drama (digital)channel, from sunday at 10:55. Kirsty From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 15 23:35:29 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:35:29 -0000 Subject: Is Lockhart part Veela? (was Chap. 7 Summary) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010814131101.009fcbb0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <9lf101+p5de@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24227 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Martin Hooper wrote: > At 14/08/01 06:41, you wrote: > > 3)Why do you think Hermione and the other women > > (with the exception > > of McGonagall) can't see what a fraud Lockhart > > is? Do you think > > he uses some sort of charm that only affects > > females? > > > > Thinking about this - Is it probable that Lockhart is a male equivalent of > a Veela..? > Well, there's a potential filk - "Veela Man" done to the tune of The Village People's "Macho Man." Sorry, not my specialty.... I don't think I buy the veela thing. It seems that the male response to Veelas was that they immediately fell into a fog that they didn't easily snap out of. Both Hermione and Molly Weasley show signs of realizing that they are acting all moon-eyed and goofy when the people (males) around them make comments on their behavior. I always put Lockhart's effect down to crushes and wishful thinking. Hermione is young enough to develop a crush on a handsome, somewhat older man, especially one who is a professor. And Molly might very well have the occasional fantasy about being swept away from her life of caring for always-busy, electrically-challenged, forever- overlooked-at-his-job-Arthur and the horde of kids, by a handsome, world-renowned wizard. Not that I think she would ever do it, but she might think about it. That's the great thing about a fantasy - you can make it come out the way you want, with no muss or fuss. Marianne, who is not at all attracted to Lockhart From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 15 23:59:05 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:59:05 -0000 Subject: Chapter 8 Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9lae8h+bt8h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lf2ca+7arb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24228 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kristin" wrote: > > 1) Do you think that MWPP have their own drawer in Filch's office? > Also if people have their own drawers like that why haven't then > been expelled? I wonder how long records are kept...The Weasley twins stole the Marauders' Map out of a drawer in Filch's office. I don't remember whether they mentioned what the name was on the drawer. I suppose it could simply have been a drawer containing various bits of parchment, nasty notes, questionable objects that Filch or his predecessor confiscated from various rule-breaking students. As far as expulsion goes, I think you'd have to do something pretty horrible to be expelled. I don't think a student would be expelled simply if they continually got detention. The punishment fits the crime - if you get caught setting off a Dungbomb in the Great Hall once a week, you get a detention. Maybe your detention tasks get nastier if you are a recidivist Dungbomb user, but I doubt it would get to the point of "George Weasley, you've been caught setting off your 500th Dungbomb - 500 equals expulsion, so pack your bags, sonny." > > 2) Do you think there might be any significance that Nick died on > October 31st, just like Harry's parents? I never thought of that. Perhaps it's just a plot device to give the Trio somewhere else to be rather than at the feast in the Great Hall. > 3) Do you think all the ghosts at Nick's Deathday party were witches > or wizards at one time? When you're a ghost can you be part of > the wizarding world even if you were once a Muggle? I think all the ghosts were witches or wizards. I don't really know why. I guess it's because there is a ghost associated with each house and Professor Binns is a ghost. It makes more sense to me to think they were all wizards/witches in their day. > 4) When you read CoS the first time did you wonder why Filch had a > KWIKSPELL kit? Did you think he was a Muggle or just a really bad > wizard? I thought he was either an incompetent wizard, or he had been expelled at one time, like Hagrid, so he never had the chance to complete his schooling when he was a child. > 5) Did you think that Draco had something to with what happened to > Mrs. Norris or at least know who did? No, I didn't think Draco was involved. I did think that Draco knew something, since he's forever spouting whatever Lucius puts into his head. Marianne From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 00:12:16 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:12:16 -0000 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions In-Reply-To: <9ldt5j+1bti@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lf350+qi48@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24229 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorbandb at y... wrote: > I am pretty convinced that dragons speak parseltongue (regardless of > the lack of Canonical evidence). Dragons are very wise and magical > creatures and probably not only speak parseltongue, but are magically > multilingual - far more than Barty Crouch - speaking all manner of > tongues and dialects. > > Brian Then how come Harry didn't hear them muttering threats to their keepers? Nor did he hear the HH warning him to keep away from her eggs. Marcus From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Aug 16 00:16:37 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:16:37 -0000 Subject: Talk to the Animals (was Lily's Secret) In-Reply-To: <3B7A83B3.24188.9931037@localhost> Message-ID: <9lf3d5+fu8u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24230 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" wrote: snip > On another point -- If it's possible to talk to snakes, can someone > with the gift talk to other animals? (Could Goderic Gryffindor talk to > lions, etc.?) > > > -- Dave I'd like to think so. Harry understands Aragog and the other spiders later on in CoS - are they all speaking English? And Sirius is able to communicate on some level with Crookshanks, although I didn't get the impression that they had actual conversations, as Harry can do with snakes. Maybe being an Animagus enhances an ability to talk with other animals. Or maybe, in this instance, this is a clue that Sirius is a Gryffindor, as he is able to a catlike creature. Not exactly a lion, but, hey, how many lions have we seen wandering around Hogwarts? Marianne, who knows her cats understand exactly what she's saying, even if they choose to ignore her, perverse beings that they are... From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 16 00:18:44 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:18:44 -0000 Subject: Lily's Secret In-Reply-To: <3B7A83B3.24188.9931037@localhost> Message-ID: <9lf3h4+881n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24231 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" wrote: > > But what I'm hoping is that it will turn out that snakes are not > inherently evil in the Potterverse. (It goes against Dumbledore's > assertions that what we choose to become is more important than > what we're born as.) > > -- Dave I don't think they are. Remember the boa constrictor in PS/SS? The one who had never been to Brazil and which nipped playfully at Dudley's heels? I thought it seemed like a cool dude; think we'll ever see it again? What I want to know, though, is why didn't Harry just talk to the Basilisk down there in the Chamber of Secrets? It seems like a logical thing to try. Bente From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 00:25:32 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:25:32 -0000 Subject: Old nasty joke (was Stan Shunpike & Tom the Innkeeper) In-Reply-To: <9levmm+kfnm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lf3ts+jt8q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24232 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > > --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: > > > > >These folks do not attend Hogwarts, > > >they move directly from basic > > >schooling in the home or in small > > >communal school settings into trades. > > >Examples include Stan Shunpike and Tom > > >the Innkeeper. > > > > How did you reach the conclusion that they never attended Hogwarts? > > Sorry, I wasn't clear. We don't know that they didn't, I was using > them as examples if my premise was correct. In other words, given > what I was suggesting up to that point, two people who might fit that > description are Tom and Stan. There is nothing in the canon to prove > that, although I would argue that there has to be a lot of people who > never qualified for Hogwarts for that small a student population to > make sense. > > I know some would argue that if Goyle can make it at Hogwarts, Stan > should be able too, but that's not necessarily the case. Stan was > exceptonally dim ("See you, Neville!" to someone whose identity has > just been revealed to him as NOT Neville but instead a famous > celebrity). Goyle is dim too, but his father was a Death Eater and I > suspect has some connections. His father is dim too, from the sound > of him, but might very well have skills that can come in useful, > especially when combined with a lack of mental prowess. > > The point is that Stan and Tom are in the kinds of jobs that one > would imagine non-educated folk to hold in a medieval-style society. > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon A group of people are discussing a new gizmo on the market. The engineering grad said, "How did they do that?" The accounting grad said, "How much did it cost them?" The law grad said, "Do they have a patent on it?" The business grad said, "How are they distributing it?" The liberal arts grad said, "Do you want fries with that?" Now I am not saying that L.A. grads are destined for menial tasks, but you really can't assume that good ol' Tom and Stan didn't go to Hogwarts merely because of their jobs. Granted, they seem a bit dim, but then so do some of the Hogwarts students we've met. They likely got their share of O.W.Ls but were a little short on N.E.W.Ts. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 00:27:47 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:27:47 -0000 Subject: Cat Tongue. (Was Lily's Secret) In-Reply-To: <3B7A83B3.24188.9931037@localhost> Message-ID: <9lf423+1056e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24233 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" wrote: > On 15 Aug 2001, at 7:29, Alfredo Ram?rez wrote: > On another point -- If it's possible to talk to snakes, can someone > with the gift talk to other animals? (Could Goderic Gryffindor talk to > lions, etc.?) > > > -- Dave Well, Sirius said that Crookshanks told him that a boy left the password list on a table. Marcus From dasienko at email.com Thu Aug 16 00:44:54 2001 From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:44:54 -0000 Subject: How does the Fidelius Charm work? In-Reply-To: <9k2c83+d2ej@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lf526+q9aa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24234 In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose"--- wrote: > I believe that the Charm may only work for certain people..> Does > that make sense? Oh, thank you! That is exactly what I've been thinking. One reason that I think that The Fidelius charm is person or group specific, is That I think that The FC is one of the protections that Dumbledore put on Privet Drive. Volde and any one who wished ill on Harry could look into the window of 4 Privet Drive and never see Harry. But the Weasley's found Harry, Mrs Weasley even sent a Muggle post to 4PD. It was even connected to the Floo network. I think that the Fidelius charm allows ONLY the secret keeper to reveal the location of the person, any one else would probably hem and haw and change the subject. From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 16 01:02:44 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:02:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA teachers References: <9ldu3b+hrnk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B7B1BB4.526A0704@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24235 magpie1112 at yahoo.com wrote: > Hi! I'm a newbie too, so I hope my answer isn't old hat....I've > always thought of two reasons why Snape hasn't been given the DADA > position. > > (1) It may lie in WHY he wants the job - if Snape only wants the DADA > position because of the prestige factor (or some other vague > ego-massaging reason), Dumbledore would probably want to keep Snape > away. We've never heard Snape's reason for wanting that position. > Perhaps Dumbledore doesn't want to stir up any buried ego-to-jealousy, > jealousy-to-Deatheater feelings in Snape. > > (2) In PoA, Lupin said "This potion is the only thing that helps. I'm > very lucky to be working alongside Professor Snape; there aren't many > wizards who are up to making it." So perhaps Dumbledore is keeping > Snape in the position where Snape can do the most good (and where is > true talents lie). Perhaps it is in Hogwarts' best interest to have a > truly talented Potions teacher than to switch Snape to DADA > (because even though the DADA position is hard to fill/cursed, we've > seen 4 different people teaching it...)? I will add a (3), that I had proposed a couple months back--that Snape may actually want the position, but either doesn't apply or is not placed there by Dumbledore, for his own protection. There's lots of creatures aligned with Voldemort who would probably be only too happy to have Snape for lunch in revenge (if his spy status is known; or his deserter position may be enough). Being in the DADA position might simply be too dangerous, putting Snape in the awareness and line of fire of various Dark creatures. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 16 01:12:41 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:12:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Typos References: <9le8dv+ubr1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B7B1E08.16C1E20A@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24236 Bente13 at peoplepc.com wrote: > Ah! So what you're saying is that even if Harry is saying the exact > opposite of what it actually true, it's still right? Interesting! I > guess my understanding of colloquial English still isn't what I > thought it was. A couple of examples which may help you get the "feel" (or may make it worse, hey, who knows). It's sort of the situation where, say, my husband would do something truly juvenile and I would say, "That was real mature." Meaning the exact opposite. And the double-positive "Yeah, right," or "Yeah, sure," said sarcastically, means a negative. Ex: Me to best friend: "Come over and I'll cook dinner!" Best friend in reply (who knows I can't cook): "Yeah, right. No problem." If she actually showed up expecting dinner, I would be thunderstruck. (and she would have to be very, very hungry). Next, my old boyfriend's favorite example, slightly off color, the then-motto of the equestrian sector of the cadets at Texas A&M University: "If you ain't Cav [cavalry], you ain't shit." Which begs the interpretation, "so if you *are* Cav, you *are*....?" which is best said softly around these big hunky military types. In cases like these, the strict grammatical interpretation is often not the correct one. --Amanda, who loves to collect lines that are easily understood but are grammatical mud, like the line from Bread's "Baby I'm A Want You": "You're the only one I care enough to hurt about." ....you understand it, but it doesn't SAY anything. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 16 01:47:53 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:47:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Random Parseltongue questions References: <9lf350+qi48@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B7B2649.23B740B@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24237 Brian said > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorbandb at y... wrote: > > I am pretty convinced that dragons speak parseltongue (regardless of > the lack of Canonical evidence). Dragons are very wise and magical > creatures and probably not only speak parseltongue, but are magically > multilingual - far more than Barty Crouch - speaking all manner of > tongues and dialects. And Marcus responded: > Then how come Harry didn't hear them muttering threats to their > keepers? Nor did he hear the HH warning him to keep away from her > eggs. And I think Marcus has it aright. Brian, you have succumbed to what the Snape as Vampire crowd veer dangerously close to. You have taken an unrelated view of dragons as the norm (the vampire crowd, knowing that folklore does not equal Hollywood does not equal Anne Rice, have not yet stated anything about JKR's vampires as a given). One of the things I *love* about JKR is that her dragons are *animals.* Big, honking, dangerous animals, but *animals.* They are not repositories of ancient knowledge, a la "Wizard of Earthsea." They are not speaking beings, a la most modern fantasy. They are not telepathic a la McCaffrey. They are not a more worthy form of life than humans, a la Dragonheart. They are big, dangerous, animals. Just like unicorns are wonderful, magical *animals.* Snakes are an oddity. I think snakes may be a special case; there may be a reason they are a Muggle symbol for both wisdom and evil. Who knows, perhaps the individual who was recorded for all time as Eve was a Parselmouth who thought the snake had a point. But what we have seen of dragons doesn't put them in the "non-human, intelligent race" category. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 16 02:08:41 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 02:08:41 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <3B7B1E08.16C1E20A@texas.net> Message-ID: <9lf9v9+jdlj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24238 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > Ah! So what you're saying is that even if Harry is saying the exact > > opposite of what it actually true, it's still right? Interesting! I > > guess my understanding of colloquial English still isn't what I > > thought it was. > > A couple of examples which may help you get the "feel" (or may make it > worse, hey, who knows). It's sort of the situation where, say, my > husband would do something truly juvenile and I would say, "That was > real mature." Meaning the exact opposite. Next, my old boyfriend's favorite example, slightly > off color, the then-motto of the equestrian sector of the cadets at > Texas A&M University: "If you ain't Cav [cavalry], you ain't shit." > Which begs the interpretation, "so if you *are* Cav, you *are*....?" > which is best said softly around these big hunky military types. In > cases like these, the strict grammatical interpretation is often not the > correct one. > > --Amanda. > I understand what you're saying, but if you (and everyone else) don't mind, I think I'll just continue to regard it as a mistake that wasn't fixed in a later printing. We seem to be divided about it; as many people think it's wrong as think it's right and just a case of sarcasm, and I don't think we'll ever really know for sure. But either way we've probably beaten it to death by now, and should let it rest; it's too minor to spend this much time and energy on. Agree? Bente From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 16 02:16:47 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 02:16:47 -0000 Subject: DADA teachers In-Reply-To: <3B7B1BB4.526A0704@texas.net> Message-ID: <9lfaef+kl2i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24239 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > I will add a (3), that I had proposed a couple months back--that Snape > may actually want the position, but either doesn't apply or is not > placed there by Dumbledore, for his own protection. There's lots of > creatures aligned with Voldemort who would probably be only too happy to > have Snape for lunch in revenge (if his spy status is known; or his > deserter position may be enough). Being in the DADA position might > simply be too dangerous, putting Snape in the awareness and line of fire > of various Dark creatures. > > --Amanda Good one! On a slightly different note, rumor has it that there will be a female DADA teacher in book 5. Any guesses, if it's someone we know? Fleur Delacour couldn't escape from the grindylows, so she will probably not be it. (Then again, Lockhart and Quirrell didn't do much better, did they?) How about Arabella Figg? She's part of Dumbledore's 'old crowd', so must be adept at fighting the dark arts, and has presumably been keeping watch over Harry for thirteen years now... what do you think? Unlike us, Harry doesn't know that old Mrs. Figg with the cats and the cabbage smell is one of his own kind, and I for one am looking forward to the time when he realizes it! Bente From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 16 02:18:09 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:18:09 -0500 Subject: Amanda Rants Again Message-ID: <3B7B2D61.5EE6DB78@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24240 To those list members under 18 (or under the mental age of 18): Listen up. Our name is HP for Grownups. That's not because we dislike children. It's because we are grown up. The majority of us are legally adults, working professionals and/or parents, who all have an interest in good literature and enjoy discussing it. And by discussing it, I mean not only delving into the details of the story and unearthing possible mistakes (like the "why didn't Lupin transform before the moon came out" line). I mean exploring the grand themes under the work, the meanings these books may carry, how these themes relate to our own experiences, what these books bring to people, the interesting question of the extreme reaction of some religious groups, and various spinoff lines of merit that are either on or off Chatter, depending on whether they ultimately have to do with Harry Potter. Please pick up, in the above, on the word "parents." Lots of us are. Lots of us are teachers, too. We are a tolerant and thoughtful group, and tease each other about typos and misspellings. We have lots of listmembers whose first language is not English, and I can invariably never tell it from their command of the language; they amaze me. However, what we do *not* want to read is long rambling blocks of words with no punctuation (that's periods ["dots" for those of you in the computer generation], commas, question marks, etc.). We like the convention of capital letters at the start of sentences, and lowercase for the rest of it. We like complete sentences, grouped into paragraphs. And we like substance, posts that discuss the books, not posts that advertise somebody's cool new website (there's a list for that, HPFGU-Announcements, post there) or to say "Hi" to each other. We don't mind reading questions we've seen before. We understand that brilliant new thoughts occur to readers at different times, and if you thought of it, it's still brilliant and you'll want discussion. THAT is what this list is for, to let you bounce your ideas off other readers and explore the responses. And it's great fun when somebody has a brand new take on an old question (which *does* still happen). So please, you younger ones, you 12- to 15-year-olds who *act* like it, there are simply *scads* of Harry Potter groups that are built for your age group and interests and English usage. Seek those, please, unless you want Parents and Teachers on your back. That said, please let me add with all sincerity: For those of you who feel that talking about Harry Potter with older Parents and Teachers and other mature types is your kind of thing, that's wonderful, it really is, and you're more than welcome to pull up a chair, grab a butterbeer and jump into the conversation. --Amanda. putting the clue bat down, out of breath, and wondering if she's getting too old for this sort of exertion From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 02:18:26 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities / WizWorld structure In-Reply-To: <9lebnf+6mk2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010816021826.84681.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24241 --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: > > But there *are* universities in medieval times. > The nobility > didn't use > > them, yes, but they still existed, no? > > Yes, there were, but there aren't in the Wizarding > World. Which was the point. You were saying that we should think of the wizarding world as similar to medieval societies. Well, I was comparing the two and I'm questioning why doesn't the wizarding world has universities when the world that's supposedly similar does. (Okay, I know it doesn't because JKR said so, but we've speculate on many other things as well; so, why not this one?) little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From nausicaa at atlantic.net Thu Aug 16 02:33:38 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:33:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Talk to the Animals (was Lily's Secret) References: <9lf3d5+fu8u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B7B3102.61A472F5@atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24242 Zarleycat at aol.com wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" wrote: > > snip > > > On another point -- If it's possible to talk to snakes, can someone > > with the gift talk to other animals? (Could Goderic Gryffindor > talk to > > lions, etc.?) > > > > > > -- Dave > > I'd like to think so. Harry understands Aragog and the other spiders > later on in CoS - are they all speaking English? And Sirius is able > to communicate on some level with Crookshanks, although I didn't get > the impression that they had actual conversations, as Harry can do > with snakes. Maybe being an Animagus enhances an ability to talk with > other animals. Or maybe, in this instance, this is a clue that > Sirius is a Gryffindor, as he is able to a catlike creature. Not > exactly a lion, but, hey, how many lions have we seen wandering > around Hogwarts? As far as Aragog & co...couldn't Hagrid speak with them too? I'm pretty darn sure he's not parseltongue, and there's never been any mention of him being able to speak with animals in general. I got the idea that Aragog was a special case, and perhaps a source of magical-translation (or something along those lines). I think Parseltongue pretty much means speaks-with-snakes. It *is* possible that there are other similar talents for different animals, perhaps none with as bad a reputation though (and thus as well known). -- Jenny "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 02:41:49 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Amanda Rants Again In-Reply-To: <3B7B2D61.5EE6DB78@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010816024149.72836.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24243 Here, here from Revere! As a parent and one who still likes to read out loud to her pre-teen and teen, I agree with you 100%! I'm still learning from all of you on the list! I'm 48 and still like to learn new ideas from everyone. But some of the posts were beyond me. The ones you mentioned in your posts, I had a feeling they were from very young minds, and very happy that you have this rant! Thank you, Amanda for keeping things in check! >From just one of the group! Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > To those list members under 18 (or under the mental > age of 18): Listen > up. > > Our name is HP for Grownups. That's not because we > dislike children. > It's because we are grown up. The majority of us are > legally adults, > working professionals and/or parents, who all have > an interest in good > literature and enjoy discussing it. And by > discussing it, I mean not > only delving into the details of the story and > unearthing possible > mistakes (like the "why didn't Lupin transform > before the moon came out" > line). I mean exploring the grand themes under the > work, the meanings > these books may carry, how these themes relate to > our own experiences, > what these books bring to people, the interesting > question of the > extreme reaction of some religious groups, and > various spinoff lines of > merit that are either on or off Chatter, depending > on whether they > ultimately have to do with Harry Potter. > > Please pick up, in the above, on the word "parents." > Lots of us are. > Lots of us are teachers, too. We are a tolerant and > thoughtful group, > and tease each other about typos and misspellings. > We have lots of > listmembers whose first language is not English, and > I can invariably > never tell it from their command of the language; > they amaze me. > > However, what we do *not* want to read is long > rambling blocks of words > with no punctuation (that's periods ["dots" for > those of you in the > computer generation], commas, question marks, etc.). > We like the > convention of capital letters at the start of > sentences, and lowercase > for the rest of it. We like complete sentences, > grouped into paragraphs. > And we like substance, posts that discuss the books, > not posts that > advertise somebody's cool new website (there's a > list for that, > HPFGU-Announcements, post there) or to say "Hi" to > each other. > > We don't mind reading questions we've seen before. > We understand that > brilliant new thoughts occur to readers at different > times, and if you > thought of it, it's still brilliant and you'll want > discussion. THAT is > what this list is for, to let you bounce your ideas > off other readers > and explore the responses. And it's great fun when > somebody has a brand > new take on an old question (which *does* still > happen). > > So please, you younger ones, you 12- to 15-year-olds > who *act* like it, > there are simply *scads* of Harry Potter groups that > are built for your > age group and interests and English usage. Seek > those, please, unless > you want Parents and Teachers on your back. > > That said, please let me add with all sincerity: For > those of you who > feel that talking about Harry Potter with older > Parents and Teachers and > other mature types is your kind of thing, that's > wonderful, it really > is, and you're more than welcome to pull up a chair, > grab a butterbeer > and jump into the conversation. > > --Amanda. putting the clue bat down, out of breath, > and wondering if > she's getting too old for this sort of exertion > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From nausicaa at atlantic.net Thu Aug 16 02:46:20 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:46:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities / WizWorld structure References: <20010816021826.84681.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B7B33FC.C028A58B@atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24244 I think a most logical reason for why the wizarding world doesn't have universities is a severe lack of occupants. Not to say that there aren't enough to fill up one or two, but how many different "majors" would there be...and how few people would be in each one? Really, I think the apprentice method would work better (and pretty much appear to be the same thing...several students at most working with one "master" of a craft -- medicine, politics, teaching, etc). On a similar note, and this just occurred to me, I have met many upper level professors who have little to no teaching experience before they arrived at their new job. They pretty much got on-the-job training, which is how the professors at Hogworts seem to learn. Some people are just good at teaching, some are not...and as we've noted, certain teachers do not seem to be as good a choice as Dumbledore would've probably liked (although who knows...I'll bet he knew just about exactly what would be occuring if such-and-such a teacher were hired). Hmmm, I sometimes get the impression that Hogworts is taught more like the universities in the Muggle world than any middle/high school I've seen -- based on teacher experience/behavior (how many public schools woule *really* allow a teacher like Snape? I can tell you, I've met several college profs like that, but none quite that bad in public schools), on class selection (some required, some electives), etc. Granted, there aren't 20-somethings running around, and in that respect it's quite like any other school for that age...but there's something about the style of instruction & school life that feels more like college to me. Any thoughts on this? "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > > --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: > > > But there *are* universities in medieval times. > > The nobility > > didn't use > > > them, yes, but they still existed, no? > > > > Yes, there were, but there aren't in the Wizarding > > World. > > Which was the point. You were saying that we should > think of the wizarding world as similar to medieval > societies. Well, I was comparing the two and I'm > questioning why doesn't the wizarding world has > universities when the world that's supposedly similar > does. (Okay, I know it doesn't because JKR said so, > but we've speculate on many other things as well; so, > why not this one?) > > little Alex -- Jenny K. "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 03:12:16 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:12:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities / WizWorld structure Message-ID: <20010815.231228.-107941.1.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24245 Hi! I'm new to this listserve, and this is my first comment. I'm thrilled to be posting on a listserve with people who also figured out Arabella Figg's identity. My students don't believe me! Jennifer wrote- >Hmmm, I sometimes get the impression that Hogworts is taught more like >the universities in the Muggle world than any middle/high school I've >seen -- based on teacher experience/behavior (how many public schools >woule *really* allow a teacher like Snape? I can tell you, I've met >several college profs like that, but none quite that bad in public >schools), on class selection (some required, some electives), etc. >Granted, there aren't 20-somethings running around, and in that respect >it's quite like any other school for that age...but there's something >about the style of instruction & school life that feels more like >college to me. Any thoughts on this? Unlike boring Muggle schools, a lot of the Hogwarts learning is hands-on. There doesn't seem to be a lot of dreary theory completely divorced from action. Even in McGonagall's class, with assignments like "Describe, with examples, the way transfiguration must be adapted doing cross-species switches" (inexact quote) the work isn't totally theoretical, they actually DO a cross species switch. I did an internship in a progressive Greenwich Village private school that operates on this principle. Kids learn by doing. Come on, teachers out there. Wouldn't your "ADHD" kids really do better in a class where you get to actually operate on the environment in some way and get immediate results? I think it's one of the charms of the series - kids love it because they'd love to go to such a cool school. And yes, as a graduate student, I can see that as I get further and further up in my training, my learning experiences are less theoretical and more hands-on. Robyn From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 03:42:08 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 03:42:08 -0000 Subject: DADA teachers In-Reply-To: <9ldp1k+6so9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lffeg+p78m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24246 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > This has often been discussed before. The consensus seems to be that > Snape's alleged desire for the DADA post is a red herring concocted > by Snape & Dumbledore to create the impression that Snape is eager to > ally himself with "the Dark Arts" - to what end, we do not yet know. > > - CMC Or there is my favorite, that he doesn't want it. He has never wanted it. He is quite happy being potions master. The source of the rumor is the same source that tagged Harry as the "Heir of Slytherin". -- the students themselves. Besides who would have to concoct a red herring to convince people that Snape wanted to ally himself with "The Dark Arts?" He is mean, nasty, petty, and arbitrary. If that was their goal, then just let Snape be Snape and let nature take its course. It seems to be working. Marcus From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 03:38:51 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:38:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Random Parseltongue questions Message-ID: <20010815.233903.-107941.5.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24247 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorbandb at y... wrote: > > I am pretty convinced that dragons speak parseltongue (regardless of > the lack of Canonical evidence). Dragons are very wise and magical > creatures and probably not only speak parseltongue, but are magically > multilingual - far more than Barty Crouch - speaking all manner of > tongues and dialects. And Marcus responded: > Then how come Harry didn't hear them muttering threats to their > keepers? Nor did he hear the HH warning him to keep away from her > eggs. Dragons are generally depicted as serpents, but I've also seen medieval art making them look more like birds. Can they possibly be magical crossbreeds in the Potterverse, related to rocs or phoenixes? We know evolutionary theory links chickens and reptiles (the whole "feathers as vestigal scales" thing) Could dragons be related to snakes, but closer to birds? Basilisks, after all are, snakes born as crossbreeds between chicken and toads. We also know they retain some sort of identity connected with their "chicken" ancestry, since "the crowing of roosters...is fatal to it." (CoS, p291) Which says interesting things about evolutionary theory in general, since the legend of the basilisk is very old, way predating Darwin (maybe it got him thinking?.......) So, maybe dragons, if at all communicable, would need to be contacted by someone who speaks with birds (an Aviamouth?) Or, another possibility - I'm a mom - if anyone flew in on a broomstick trying to snatch one of my babies, my bellows of rage probably wouldn't be readily understood either (excuse my French!) if you know what I mean. Robyn, who regularly breathes smoke and fire in defense of her young. From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 03:48:20 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 03:48:20 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <3B7B1E08.16C1E20A@texas.net> Message-ID: <9lffq4+cfg6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24248 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > --Amanda, who loves to collect lines that are easily understood but are > grammatical mud, like the line from Bread's "Baby I'm A Want You": > "You're the only one I care enough to hurt about." ....you understand > it, but it doesn't SAY anything. My personal favorite is, "May I borrow a kleenix?" Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 04:01:11 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:01:11 -0000 Subject: universities / WizWorld structure In-Reply-To: <3B7B33FC.C028A58B@atlantic.net> Message-ID: <9lfgi7+qg72@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24249 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jennifer wrote: > Hmmm, I sometimes get the impression that Hogworts is taught more like > the universities in the Muggle world than any middle/high school I've > seen -- based on teacher experience/behavior (how many public schools > woule *really* allow a teacher like Snape? > Any thoughts on this? > Jenny K. I don't know, my high school chemistry teach would make Snape seem like a pussy-cat. :) Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 04:09:25 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:09:25 -0000 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions In-Reply-To: <20010815.233903.-107941.5.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lfh1l+o43d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24250 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > Or, another possibility - I'm a mom - if anyone flew in on a broomstick > trying to snatch one of my babies, my bellows of rage probably wouldn't > be readily understood either (excuse my French!) if you know what I mean. > > > Robyn, who regularly breathes smoke and fire in defense of her young. Good for you! However, if they stood hovering, threatening to steal one of your kids; you probably would send a few choice, easily understood words his way. Marcus (who has four of his own) From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 04:07:05 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:07:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Random Parseltongue questions Message-ID: <20010816.000711.-107941.8.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24251 > Or, another possibility - I'm a mom - if anyone flew in on a broomstick > trying to snatch one of my babies, my bellows of rage probably wouldn't > be readily understood either (excuse my French!) if you know what I mean. Good for you! However, if they stood hovering, threatening to steal one of your kids; you probably would send a few choice, easily understood words his way. Marcus (who has four of his own) Two words: Fire's faster. Robyn From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 04:10:41 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:10:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities / WizWorld structure Message-ID: <20010816.001050.-107941.9.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24252 I don't know, my high school chemistry teach would make Snape seem like a pussy-cat. :) Marcus That's the disadvantage of a listserve for adults. Our memories of school are mercifully blurred. I bet if we polled a young Harry Potter fan club, we'd hear about a lot of Snapes. JK Rowling just takes it to an extreme. And my HS swimming teacher would have had Snape quaking in his boots. From joym999 at aol.com Thu Aug 16 04:19:24 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:19:24 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #12 Message-ID: <9lfhkc+dv5j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24253 Hello all. Contest #12 is still up and running, and will be for another week or so, since I do not have a new contest for this week. This contest is to submit an explanation of what you think a character from HP might see in the Mirror of Erised. For example, what do you think Hermione would see? Does Dumbledore really see warm socks? What does Neville Longbottom see? Snape? Dobby? As an alternative, you can speculate about your listmates. Would Caius Marcus see his name in lights on a Broadway marquee, underneath the title "Harry Potter -- the Musical"? And, what about JKR? What would our favorite author see in the Mirror of Erised? If you have any speculation about these exciting questions, please email it to me at the above address or HP4GUCon at aol.com. --Joywitch From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 04:19:45 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:19:45 -0000 Subject: universities / WizWorld structure In-Reply-To: <20010815.231228.-107941.1.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lfhl1+fsh9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24254 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > Hi! I'm new to this listserve, and this is my first comment. I'm thrilled > to be posting on a listserve with people who also figured out Arabella > Figg's identity. My students don't believe me! > Robyn http://www.hpgalleries.com/c103.htm This is a chat transcript where JKR talks about it. Also, I believe there is some audio interview where she admits they are one and the same. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 04:52:54 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:52:54 -0000 Subject: To Mindy: (Was: Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World) In-Reply-To: <20010814.190632.-183923.2.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lfjj6+4rn7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24255 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > I am still quite perplexed by the entire premise of JKR's books. @@ Massive Snip @@ > MINDY Mindy, you've asked some good questions. It shows you've put some thought into it. At the risk of sounding like a teacher, may I suggest you think up some of your own answers? Take those questions you've asked, take the rules and laws as JKR has given us, and see if you can make them fit in a consistant universe. That is part of the fun of the Potterverse. :) Be sure and let us know what you come up with. We would love to hear it. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 05:07:22 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 05:07:22 -0000 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions In-Reply-To: <20010816.000711.-107941.8.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lfkea+o3se@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24256 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > > Or, another possibility - I'm a mom - if anyone flew in on a > broomstick > > trying to snatch one of my babies, my bellows of rage probably > wouldn't > > be readily understood either (excuse my French!) if you know what I > mean. > > Good for you! However, if they stood hovering, threatening to steal > one of your kids; you probably would send a few choice, easily > understood words his way. > > Marcus > (who has four of his own) > > Two words: Fire's faster. > Robyn But you had tried that, and he was too quick for you. :) Marcus From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 05:09:14 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 05:09:14 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands and Magical Ability, Part Two Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24257 Lisa I. wrote: *<>*<>*Hermione tells us in GoF that it is magical law that only wizards can carry and use wands; she wants to change it so that house-elves can use them too. However, is it clear that house-elves need a wand? Dobby sent Lucius Malfoy down a staircase with one finger, and can pull appearances and disappearances that are not hindered by the no-Apparition barrier at Hogwarts. In CoS, as they rescue Harry from the Dursleys, the twins explain that house-elves have great magical power, but can't usually use it without their masters' permission. If a house-elf were to use a wand, would it have greater results than that of a wizard? Or is it merely that the characteristics of house-elf/wizard magic differ laterally? After all, Winky's claim for not using the wand is that she doesn't know how.*<>*<>* Hmmm... I guess, now that you've brought it up, that wands are sort of like guns in the US. Let's think of the desire to protect one's self and one's family [or the desire to kill, hurt, wound, etc...] as the magical ability inside one's self. Now: the wand and the gun is the outlet for this... energy(?) or desire (?).... You may not need a wand to practice magic...like house-elves, or possibly advanced wizards....but it sure is handy! (Not having to practice or whatever to retain the magical ability to focus one's magic well enough to work without a wand...that is if wands are, ideed, the 'lens' that is commonly used to focus magic.) AND you may not need a gun to protect one's self or kill another. You COULD just run at an attacker and strangle or pummel him/her with your bare hands if you felt inclined to do so... but pulling a trigger and walking away just saves so much time and energy. Now...why Hermione wants house-elves to have the option of using a wand... Humans are only allowed to use wands...and Hermione seems to think, IMO, that anyone that isn't allowed is considered a lesser being. House-elves are being enslaved (even though they like it), and in her opinion, they shouldn't be, and should be considered equals to witches and wizards. In the constitution (i think,...I'm Canadian, and so I'm not exactly the authority on American anything, so please excuse me if I'm wrong here...), it gives everyone of legal age the right to own a gun... whether or not: A) you want to use the gun B) You can use the gun C) it's smart and safe for you to use a gun. The right is there... In Hermione's eyes, it's the principle that she's fighting for...even if house-elves: A) Can't use a wand B) don't want to use a wand C) SHOULD, for safety purposes, use a wand D) Need to use a wand ... the option should be there for them. I'm not sure about all the nasty side-effects involved in house-elves using wands... but I peronally think that no house-elf would even bother...why hinder yourself with a wand when all you have to do is point a finger?! Not even Dobby is that liberal-minded, anyway, to accept a wand...I mean he has a hard enough time being SPOKEN to like an equal...getting the rights would be honour enough...USING that right, on the other hand, would just be too much for house-elves, who, after all, live to serve...Who knows? They might even be insulted by a right to carry a wand...They didn't seems to be too thrilled about winky and dobby being freed... And Winky had probably never used a wand in her life... so it's perfectly believable that she wouldn't know how to do a very simple spell, let alone conjure the Dark Mark...She would feel that it 'wasn't her place' to touch 'Master Barty's' wand... and I believe her sense of house-elf honour and tradition would keep her from doing so. Yes, I ramble. And Yes, I do hate guns, but no, I don't hate wands. (Guns just kill, wands can do a heap of other nifty tricks!!) Katie** ******************************************************************* 'Aha,' he said vaguely,'we've won.' And he fainted. ******************************************************************* ^^My temporary quote...until I can think up (...ahem...*find*) a better one^^ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From katzefan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 05:10:21 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 05:10:21 -0000 Subject: Assorted Message-ID: <9lfkjt+j9lj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24258 1) Somewhere waaaay back there, someone (Mindy?) was wondering about Wizards living in the Muggle world, and someone else speculated that Hogsmeade was the 'largest Wizard village in Britain' (or something like that), suggesting that most wizards don't, in fact, live in the Muggle world. **Pause for breath after unparsable long sentence.** Manymanymany years ago, I read a short story by American writer Harlan Ellison in which a man is staring casually into his neighbour's garden -- when he realizes a plant is staring back. It has eyes (multiple) and tentacles. Turns out the guy is an alien who has moved out to the suburbs (which include Earth) but anyone who wishes to do so is briefed intensively on Earth customs and practices and MUST abide by them so as to avoid drawing unnecessary and unwanted attention. Anyone violating these regulations has their 'suburb' pass yanked and ends up back in the overcrowded galactic centre. Perhaps the same sort of thing applies here: a minority of Wizards do live in the Muggle world, but only after careful briefing about how to fit in. Having said that, my impression of Great Britain (correct me if I'm wrong) is that it is the most tolerant country in the world for eccentrics, so a Wizard would have to something really, really bizarre to be noticed (a live dragon on the front lawn would do it ... maybe). 2) Lockhart's attraction - Personally, I don't see any, but how many of today's superstars have any more depth than he does? I agree with those who say Molly is probably intrigued by his surface charm. However, I think she's an extremely down-to- earth woman. If Lockhart was actually around her for any length of time, I predict it wouldn't be long before he'd be swept out with that day's dust. As for Hermione, puh-leeze!! She's only - what, 12 years old that year? He's superficially good-looking, well-known, (supposedly) very brave and adventurous and he's always praising her. It's not surprising that she develops a crush on him. She seems to have pretty much gone 'off' him by the end of the book; however googly she is over him at the beginning, she too is shrewd enough by the end to see he's all flash and no substance. 3) After Harry keeps Sirius and Lupin from killing Wormtail, Dumbledore tells Harry that when one wizard saves another, it creates a bond, and that he has handed Voldemort back a servant who is indebted to Voldemort's worst enemy. There was certainly no sign in GoF that Wormtail remembered that debt. Any speculation on whether he ever will? From islandgirl127 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 05:10:56 2001 From: islandgirl127 at yahoo.com (courtney) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA teachers In-Reply-To: <997933722.1378.54126.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010816051056.11404.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24259 I agree with Marcus: ======= > Or there is my favorite, that [Snape] doesn't want [the DADA position]. > He has never > wanted it. He is quite happy being potions master. > The source of > the rumor is the same source that tagged Harry as > the "Heir of > Slytherin". -- the students themselves. ======= IIRC, Snape disliked the DADA professors *personally*, not because he coveted their job. (Although he seems to dislike everyone but Malfoy, doesn't he?) All of the teachers either thought or knew that Lockhart didn't know what he was doing, and Snape had hated Lupin since they attended Hogwarts together. Snape seems perfectly happy teaching potions--in PS/SS, Ch. 8, he gave that lovely monologue about how important and exact the art of potion-brewing is if you weren't a dunderhead. Any thoughts? ~Courtney~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 05:05:19 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 01:05:19 -0400 Subject: Mindy: Some possible avenues of thought. Message-ID: <20010816.010527.-107941.15.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24260 I agree with Marcus. The point of the books is to have you do the work of suspending your own disbelief. JKR just makes it really, really easy. Mindy does have one point. I'm not sure about what happens when a Muggle-born student goes home on vacation. Does Hermione use the Internet on vacation? Or does she say things like "Sorry, Mom, I'd love to load the dishwasher but I'm a wizard now, so I can't." I mean, in GoF, when Harry, Ron and Hermione were all searching for a recipe that would enable Harry to breathe underwater, Hermione HAD to be wishing for a database. And clearly, at the beginning of PoA, Hermione has just been on holiday in France. Did she get there by broomstick? I'm assuming she went by plane, since she was concerned about having Harry's broomstick servicing package opened at Customs. So people living in both worlds probably do use the amenities of both. More to the point in Mindy's question about social security numbers is, do people like Dean Thomas or Hermione or Lily Potter go OFF social security rolls? There's probably a form to fill out (in triplicate) to change your muggle vs. wizard status. Which brings up another question - I'd love to know the Gringotts exchange rate for Muggle and Wizard currency - I wonder whose economy is stronger? Robyn From gb7243 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 05:15:00 2001 From: gb7243 at yahoo.com (Jacqueline Brasen) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parselmouth and the Basilisk Message-ID: <20010816051500.94708.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24261 >I don't think they are. Remember the boa constrictor in PS/SS? The >one who had never been to Brazil and which nipped playfully at >Dudley's heels? I thought it seemed like a cool dude; think we'll >ever see it again? What I want to know, though, is why didn't Harry >just talk to the Basilisk down there in the Chamber of Secrets? It >seems like a logical thing to try. >Bente This is my first post, please forgive me if this has already been said. First, Id like to respond to why I think Harry didnt try speaking to the Basilisk. Throughout the series Harry has often made some obvious mistakes. In my opinion that is one of the great things about Harry, he is a kid and you know it. He doesnt always make the right choice nor do what is most sensible. That said I would like to point out that even if he had tried to speak to the Basilisk I doubt it would have made a difference. Why? In CoS the note ripped from a library book said, Of the many fearsome beasts and monsters that roam our land, there is none more curious or more deadly than the Basilisk, known also as the King of Serpents. I think that the King of Serpents would be very magical and not easily controlled. We know that Harry has talked to two snakes, but Im not sure that saying leave him alone, when the snake at the dueling club was advancing on Justin, was in any way controlling the snake. CoS also tells us that it took Tom Riddle five years to learn everything he could about the Chamber, I personally think that would include learning how to manage the horror within. So, I believe that even if Harry had the presence of mind to speak to the Basilisk it would not have worked. Jackie B. ===== "There is a moment we all come to in our own time and our own space where all that we've done we can undo if our heart's in the right place" Yates/Brooks From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 05:11:25 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 01:11:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Assorted Message-ID: <20010816.011133.-107941.16.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24262 Clip >2) Lockhart's attraction - Personally, I don't see any, but how >many of today's superstars have any more depth than he does? I >agree with those who say Molly is probably intrigued by his >surface charm. However, I think she's an extremely down-to- >earth woman. If Lockhart was actually around her for any length >of time, I predict it wouldn't be long before he'd be swept out with >that day's dust. >As for Hermione, puh-leeze!! She's only - what, 12 years old that >year? He's superficially good-looking, well-known, (supposedly) >very brave and adventurous and he's always praising her. It's not >surprising that she develops a crush on him. She seems to have >pretty much gone 'off' him by the end of the book; however googly >she is over him at the beginning, she too is shrewd enough by >the end to see he's all flash and no substance. And as a major source of attraction to Hermione - he wrote every book on the book list! 3) Will Wormtail remember his debt to Harry? Definitely - but in the climax of the last book. Robyn From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 05:21:17 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 05:21:17 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <9le8dv+ubr1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lfl8d+v1a3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24263 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote: > > > > What we have here is a colloqial expression - it seems in 'British > > English' as our US friends appear to be thrown by it. Its not a > > misprint. > > > > If someone particularly large/fat/loudmouthed/whatever was at a > party > > and someone afterwards asked me if I had seen him there I might > well > > say " Of course - he isnt exactly hard to miss". > > > > The idiomatic expression is exactly right as used by Harry about > > Madame Maxine. He intends to say, and does so clearly and in > standard > > and grammatically correct colloquial english, that If Madame M was > > ppresent at a particlar occasion she would stand out a mile. > > > > Edis > > > Ah! So what you're saying is that even if Harry is saying the exact > opposite of what it actually true, it's still right? Interesting! I > guess my understanding of colloquial English still isn't what I > thought it was. > > Bente Edis, Are you absolutely sure this is what you'd say? It seemed perfectly fine to me on the first few readings, and I couldn't see what others were talking about. It was so obvious what Harry MEANT that what he actual said didn't register. But as I thought about it, it seemed clear that it should be "She wasn't exactly easy to miss". Now, I'm Canadian, not British, but here we would say the following: He wasn't exactly Albert Einstein. (He was an idiot) Peeves isn't exactly Mother Theresa. (He's, well, Peeves...) ie. It is understandment used for effect, not sarcarsm. The blending of the two seems odd and confusing...It's not that I'm nitpicky; I'm just curious to know if this is common British usage, and if you have any other examples like this. -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 05:31:56 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 05:31:56 -0000 Subject: Talk to the Animals (was Lily's Secret) In-Reply-To: <3B7B3102.61A472F5@atlantic.net> Message-ID: <9lflsc+k0j7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24264 Harry understands Aragog and the other spiders later on in CoS - are they all speaking English? > -- > Jenny Yup... "The Acromantula is a monstrous eight-eyed spider capable of human speech." - Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them (Newt Scamander) Cheers, -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 05:44:29 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Typos In-Reply-To: <9lfl8d+v1a3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010816054429.81227.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24265 Hello, Edis wrote: > > > say " Of course - he isnt exactly hard to miss". --- tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com wrote: > I'm nitpicky; I'm > just curious to know if this is common British > usage, and if you have > any other examples like this. What about... "I could care less"? I've always thought of it as "I couldn't care less" (which makes more sense), seen others use the "couldn't" form and used it that way myself, but I've also seen in older books where they do write "I could care less." little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 05:56:36 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 05:56:36 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <20010816054429.81227.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lfnak+qluo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24266 -- > What about... "I could care less"? I've always > thought of it as "I couldn't care less" (which makes > more sense), seen others use the "couldn't" form and > used it that way myself, but I've also seen in older > books where they do write "I could care less." > > little Alex > Oh, I agree. There are tons of examples where sarcasm may be used in one case, and understatment in another. What I meant was, are there any examples with the particular expression "not exactly", which is a very common expression, but always, in my experience, followed by the opposite of what is intended? Cheers, -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From profusepersiflage at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 06:04:04 2001 From: profusepersiflage at yahoo.com (profusepersiflage at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 06:04:04 -0000 Subject: Wizard's Age Message-ID: <9lfnok+j6n1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24267 J.K. Rowling said in an interview that Dumbledore is approximately 150 years old and that, contrary to my pet suspicion that he has secretly stowed away some of the Elixir of Life, it is natural for a wizard/witch to live somewhat longer than the average muggle. However, the mysterious aging process of witches and wizards is a bit confusing. In The Chamber of Secrets when Harry looks into Riddle's diary and sees Dumbledore as he was 50 years ago he, as would be expected, looked much younger and didn't yet have white hair. Dumbledore was about 100 years old at the time. So when did he start aging slowly? Harry and his peers are described as being 14 years old, both physically and mentally, when they ARE 14 years old. Therefore, we know that witches and wizards age normally for at least part of there lives. Do they have random intervals of suspended aging after they hit,say, 20? Or do they simply age slower after they reach a certain age? Is it the same for each wizard/witch? Dose it depend on an emotional or mental stage in someone's life rather than physical? -Persi Thou hast no youth nor age; But, as it were, an after-dinner's sleep... ;) From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 06:03:11 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 02:03:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard's Age Message-ID: <20010816.020320.-107941.17.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24268 Therefore, we know that witches and wizards age normally for at least part of there lives. Do they have random intervals of suspended aging after they hit,say, 20? Or do they simply age slower after they reach a certain age? Is it the same for each wizard/witch? Dose it depend on an emotional or mental stage in someone's life rather than physical? I wonder if it depends on magic usage. Clearly, I am borrowing a concept from some other series here, but maybe the working of a really powerful bit of magic (like the Fidelius Charm) rapidly ages you. It's as though magic is keeping you young, but when you divert a lot of it into one major spell, you suddenly age a lot. That would explain Dumbledore's not-yet gray beard at age 100 - that was before Voldemort's rise, and possibly before he worked on creating the Sorcerer's Stone. Also, maybe he chose to go gray when he became Headmaster - it fits in with the Headmaster image. From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 06:19:15 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Caring Less In-Reply-To: <20010816054429.81227.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010816061915.99114.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24269 --- "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: >What about... "I could care less"? >I've always thought of it as "I >couldn't care less" (which makes more >sense), seen others use the "couldn't" >form and used it that way myself, but >I've also seen in older books where >they do write "I could care less." I once read an explanation from an expert that both were correct. Paraphrased, he said 'I couldn't care less' is short for 'I couldn't possibly under any circumstances care less than I do at this moment.' 'I could care less' is short for 'I COULD care less but it's not worth the effort to do so.' OT: If you are in North Dakota, *please* email me. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From cimorene21 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 06:53:10 2001 From: cimorene21 at hotmail.com (cimorene21 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 06:53:10 -0000 Subject: DADA teachers In-Reply-To: <9ldu3b+hrnk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lfqkm+uulb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24270 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > Dude...the red herring idea is really plausible... and hadn't even entered my mind. *feels dense*. Y'know, you're right-- we never HAVE gotten any evidence from Snape himself that he's after that post-- besides his personal animus toward all four of the teachers. Harry and the students are taking this as job-related jealousy, but really-- they've been quite a despicable lot, as far as Snape is concerned-- Quirrell is a spy, Lockhart is an idiot, Lupin is one of James' gang, and Moody won't let go of Snape's DE past... Also-- it seems to me that DADA is something of a bullshit course: rather like the Health requirement in American high schools. You learn helpful things, but nothing that's are terribly important or that isn't just barely verging over into common knowledge. Obviously, Quirrel and Lockhart weren't doing the job properly, but Lupin, the best DADA teacher Harry's seen, seemed to be teaching wizarding street-smarts more than anything (I'm exaggerating, enh). The only teacher they've had that tought them serious spell protection was Moody, who was, as it went, doing it illegally anyways... I don't know, but it seems to me that any SERIOUS DADA involving honest-to-gosh Dark Arts would probably be somewhat dangerous-- and, hence, not legal to teach for fear of lawsuit, etc... Snape is, as has been stated, and excellent potions master-- so why would Dumbledore want to waste him on a nonimportant post? Hm. From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 06:59:35 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 06:59:35 +0000 Subject: Talking to Animals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24271 I'm sorry, but I hate, hate, hate the idea of all animals having their own --tongue. In my mind, it undervalues the novelty of Harry, Voldemort and Slytherin being able to speak to snakes. If there were people all over the place who could talk to birds, lizards, unicorns, dragons, frogs, lobsters, etc would a little boy who could talk to snakes be such a big deal? Would this ability play such a pivotal role in the perception of the two main villains, and the uncanny similarities between them and our hero? I think the reason that Slytherin and his descendents (and Harry-the-fluke) can speak to snakes is due mainly to the fact that Slytherin pulled a Voldemort. AhaIve lost you havent I? Allow me to explain my theory. Like the big V experimented with immortality, Slytherin experimented and unearthed this ability (for lack of a better word) to speak to snakes, who he happened to feel a certain affinity with. Slytherin created curses or charms that, when used in conjunction with one another would allow him the ability to converse with snakes, and pass this ability down through his descendents which would eventually lead to the chamber being opened, the basilisk being unleashed, and his own evil plan being fulfilled!! And now I would like to take this opportunity to say: MWA HA HA!! Im sorry, but I was on a roll with the evil-genius ploy thing, and I had to get that out of my system Now, I have returned to my normal, abnormal self, and in all seriousness would like to add that I do not think that all snakes are evil. Just the ones that were crossbred to be so i.e. the basilisk. Now I am going to bed. Katie** *I am the queen of run-on-sentences! Bow before me! *Ahem* --If you *want*.... **************************************************************** 'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' And he fainted. **************************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From catlady at wicca.net Thu Aug 16 07:14:24 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:14:24 -0700 Subject: Lockhart - Magical Ability & Wands - Lupin's Suitcase - Mindy's Questions - Snake Message-ID: <3B7B72D0.B7279EDB@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24272 Lea asked: > Another thing I've thought about, do you think > we will ever meet Lockhart again? I seem to recall that someone asked JKR that in a chat, and she replied that Lockhart would not be in any condition to leave St. Mungo's until after many many years of re-learning everything since babyhood. I seem to recall that I had a problem with that answer, as he was shown still speaking English and knowing what a Professor is, which are things that a baby hasn't learned yet. Kavitha wrote: > Wouldn't that be dangerous? An unschooled mage > who would lose control in moments of extreme emotion, > possibly with disasterous consequences? Apparently Salazar Slytherin thought that was less of a danger than that Muggle-born witches and wizards might tell Muggles about the wizarding world -- that is a paraphrase of his stated reason for not wanting to allow Muggle-born students into Hogwarts, the disagreement that led to the split among the Founders. And maybe the other Founders were more motivated by wanting to avoid that danger you mentioned than by wanting to be gracious and fair to the Mudblooods. Kavitha wrote: > Next question...why do all the wizards/witches/ > warlocks in the Potterverse use wands when, >historically, they were not considered neccessary? Can you please tell me where it says that wands didn't use to be considered necessary: I seem to have missed that. Jesse wrote: > It has been stated in many canons that Lupin > has found very little paying work over the years > because of his monthly werewolf stints.... So where > was he a professor? Or did he perhaps make the tag > for his bag? I've read a fanfic in which James gave Remus that case, with its label, back at their graduation, with the label as a joke on Remus's scholarly way of speech. Amanda replying to Mindy: > > What if Ginny Weasley went to buy a new dress > > robe, and couldn't decide which color. She can't > > owl her mother and wait two days in the store > > for an answer! >Well, if I were Ginny, or was back at college with > no phone, I'd either (a) bite the bullet and decide, >or (b) ask the lady to hold both until I could get > Mom's input, or (c) do without. She could Apparate home, once she has her Apparation license, perhaps taking the two robes home with her if the saleslady trusts Weasleys. She could Floo home or do the Fire Talking thing that we learned about in GoF: the dress shop might even have a fireplace for that purpose, or else she would have to go to the nearest public fireplace. > > They DO take the train, though -- the Hogwarts > > Express. If they walk around dressed up in robes > > on the street all the time, aren't they immediately > > visible? > They don't; see reference to McGonagall's disgusted > comment, above. > > Are they all in Muggle clothing when they go > > to the train station? > Yes. They change on the train. And the Hogwarts > express is the only train mentioned that is ridden > regularly, so far. The rest probably Floo or > Apparate to work. This is something that I've having trouble with: when Harry tells Vernon of the Weasleys wanting to take him to the Quidditch World Cup, Vernon snarls that they'd better be dressed 'normally' and Harry reflects that the young Weasleys wear Muggle clothes on holiday but he'd never seen the parents in anything but long robes, usually shabby. And I thought: "What! Did Mr and Mrs Weasley wear their robes when they took the kids to King's X station?" One pair of parents in robes wouldn't attract suspicion: they're just foreigners. But if dozens and dozens of parents showed up in robes, surely there would be calls to call-in shows complaining about the 'cultists' jamming the train station. > > Another question I have, is how they manage to > > support themselves with only magical jobs. There > > are only so many people who can work for the > > Ministry, and only so many people who can have > > shops in Hogsmeade. > And while we haven't been shown a lot of it, there's > clearly a wizarding economy operating full-steam > making things like Bertie Botts beans, Golden Snitches, > broomstics, self-threading needles, odd clocks, etc. I keep trying to figure out the wizarding economy. It keeps not having enough people for people to be able to actually make a being selling robes or playing Quidditch or most of the things they do for jobs. The income from most of their jobs would be more in the range of income from a hobby. The only way I can make it make sense to me is if all the wizarding folk, in addition to their inheritances, wages, etc, receive a subsidy that is probably only enough for bare subsistence. I like to think that wizarding money DOES grow on trees, very special trees that are in MoM custody, and the subsidies sent to each wizard each year come from that year's harvest of those trees. Little Alex asked: > The wizard won't have the basic paperwork > to get to the point where he can have a social > security number. > And what kind of a job a wizard can do in the > Muggle world, when he's probably not encouraged > to use much magic? (snip) > Even if he has the skills, how can he prove it? Magic must be very useful when it comes to forging identity papers and diplomas, as magic surely can insert the person's new records into all the file cabinets and computer databases necessary, and remove the old records when the person wants to cease to exist in the Muggle world. I personally believe that there are plenty of wizarding folks 'earning' their livings by use of magic in the Muggle world, often by using Persuasion Charms and Confundus Charms for various kinds of scams, but also by more honest methods, like selling Love Potions and Weight Loss Potions that smart people like us know are just chicanery and don't buy. > Are there any wizarding universities? Don't > any of them get Ph.D's? Jennifer wrote: > Really, I think the apprentice method would > work better (and pretty much appear to be the > same thing...several students at most working > with one "master" of a craft -- medicine, > politics, teaching, etc). magpie wrote: > I've always figured that there was some kind of > apprenticeship program in the Wizarding World. > You graduate from Hogwarts, and then are put into > a basic-level apprentiship (sort of like the old > ways of training solicitors and nurses). JKR has said repeatedly that there are NO wizarding universities. Since there clearly must be advanced education, I have decided that there are scholarly guilds (guilds, incidentally, are called 'collegia' in Latin) as well as professional guilds. Guilds have consistent standards to certify their members. In a professional guild, the levels are Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master, and the person has to pass various tests and so on to be promoted to the next level. I feel sure that there is a Healers' Guild which is where Pomfrey was trained. I also believe that a vocational school is not a university and therefore doesn't contradict JKR -- I have imagined that there is a separate profession of Physicians, mediwizards who recieved their training in the classrooms of Paracelsus College or Asclepius College rather than by apprenticeship, and a rather hostile rivalry between the two types of mediwizard. It seems to me that in the scholarly guild the levels are Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, and Doctor -- in the scholarly world, the Master is qualified to own hiser own business, work without supervision, teach Apprentices, and certify trained Apprentices as Journeymen, but only Doctors are qualified to teach Journeymen and Masters to be Masters and Doctors... Journeymen are qualified to be employed under supervision... The Master can certifiy hiser own apprentices as journeymen after they pass comprehensive oral and written exams set by a committee of Doctors. The journeyman who wishes to become a Master (Magister or Magistra of Artis Magia) must submit a dissertation and (if the dissertation is accepted by the committee) defend the dissertation for 24 hours straight, on the podium of the guildhouse's lecture hall answering questions from all comers... the sublime and ultimate degree of Doctor of Artis Magia is awarded based on nomination and vote of the guild members who are Doctors already. Heidi wrote: > We also know that Gringotts changes Muggle money - > they must have some sort of relationship with the Bank > of England that swaps wizard gold for pounds - then the > Muggles melt it down & turn it into gold bars or something. I have long thought that Gringotts' money changing operation was totally internal to Gringotts: having started by acquiring a supply of Muggle cash, perhaps by selling fake gems to Muggles, they sold the Muggle cash (presumably at a markup, or with an exchange fee) to wizards who wanted to do business with Muggles, and bought Muggle cash (presumably at a markdown) from wizards who had been enriching themselves in the Muggle world. And just the regular turnover of the merchandise (Muggle cash) saves them from using coins and bills so old that they freak out all the Muggles. Robyn wrote: > I'd love to know the Gringotts exchange rate > for Muggle and Wizard currency - I wonder whose > economy is stronger? JKR said that a Galleon is worth five pounds (about seven dollars). I don't believe it: a look at the prices that Harry pays for things suggests that the Galleon is worth something from $25 to $40 in modern money. Joywitch replying to Mindy: > >how do they wash their laundry without wash machines? > Wave their wands and say Cleanemupus Goodandshinyus? There's a Heinlein book ("Operation Chaos"??) that glimpses a witch doing her laundry. I think she waves her wand, but anyway the laundry lines up to take its turn to jump into the wash tub, swim around, wring itself out, and so on. My two thoughts when I read that scene (long, long years ago) were 1) do the women in that universe who aren't witches get to have washing machines (altho' I haven't had a washing machine since I left my parental home), and 2) that sounds like a Disney animation. Bente wrote: > Remember the boa constrictor in PS/SS? The > one who had never been to Brazil and which > nipped playfully at Dudley's heels? I thought > it seemed like a cool dude; think we'll > ever see it again? I nominated that snake as My Favorite HP animal. IIRC, someone in a chat asked JKR if that snake would appear again and she said Yes. ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L echerous A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From vderark at bccs.org Thu Aug 16 07:33:46 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:33:46 -0000 Subject: DADA teachers In-Reply-To: <9lfqkm+uulb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lft0q+bfm6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24273 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cimorene21 at h... wrote: > Also-- it seems to me that DADA is something of a bullshit course No, it isn't. It's probably the most important course at Hogwarts. The reason is that almost every bit of magic is neutral. What matters is the intention of the caster. And that intention comes from a well developed, "good" character. Why can our heroes cast curses without doing Dark Magic? Because a curse spell cast by someone whose intentions are not evil is not Dark Magic. DADA is training students the why of magic, not just the how. It's like ethics courses for doctors. Without a thorough training in this, a school trains wizards with no foundation of good and evil. The product would be ammoral, easily-swayed wizards who wield power without the understanding that would keep them on the side of the right and good. The creatures they study are not the same as the ones in Care of Magical Creatures. They are not simply animals. They are Dark Creatures who actively intend to harm. Look at Red Caps: these nasty little creatures are not animals, they are physical embodiments of the evil intent to harm and kill. Red Caps don't have a life cycle like animals, they simply exist to kill travelers, use the blood to color their caps red, and then kill again when the color fades. Contrast that with a creature which kills because it needs food. It's all about intention. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From devajones55d at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 07:42:30 2001 From: devajones55d at yahoo.com (devajones55d at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:42:30 -0000 Subject: universities/WizWorld structure Message-ID: <9lfth6+71r6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24274 Steve Vander Ark wrote: It seems to me that the amount of magical power intristic to a person, while by far the most important factor, is not the only criteria for entering Hogwarts. Influence from a patron or a famous family enters into the picture. Why else would someone like Crabbe or Goyle make it into Hogwarts? This makes sense to me, because it's how things work in our Muggle world. However, didn't JKR say in an interview that there's a magic book and quill somewhere that records when a magic child is born and that those are the kids who get letters of acceptance to Hogwarts? It seems to me that the purpose of something like this would be to have an impartial judge of the kids who get in and the kids who don't. I can think of two ways this would be circumvented: 1) The quill is more lenient on kids who come from old wizarding familys or 2) The influential patron or member of a famous family of a kid in question *suggests* to the headmaster or headmistress that the kid should be let in. # 2 is more likely, but I'll be interested to see in upcoming books how much of acceptance is actually impartial and how much is based on human decisions. magpie1112 wrote: I've always figured that there was some kind of apprenticeship program in the Wizarding World. You graduate from Hogwarts, and then are put into a basic-level apprentiship (sort of like the old ways of training solicitors and nurses). For example, Bill Weasley would, after Hogwarts, go to Gringotts and begin his work as an apprentice/assistant (much like what Pearcy is doing now). After a period of time, Bill goes out on his own as a full-fledged member of Gringotts. This seems perfectly logical, and even necessary, especially for Mediwizards. (I'm assuming that no colleges or universities also means no medical schools.) It'd be like the internships of today. (Well, not exactly, but you get the same real-world experience.) After all, being able to heal is obviously the most important aspect of being a Mediwizard, but you also have to learn to deal with people and emergency situations. Also, if a kid wrangles his way into Hogwarts without being "on the list" and proves to be hopelessly in over his head, offering an apprenticeship at some point to a less magic-oriented job might be the best way to get the kid out of school and still let him be part of the Wizarding World until he can do the job on his own. Deva (who is on the young side but is desperately trying to think like a mature adult) From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 08:06:44 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 01:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mindy: Some possible avenues of thought. In-Reply-To: <20010816.010527.-107941.15.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010816080644.20316.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24275 Hello, --- Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > do people like Dean Thomas or Hermione or Lily > Potter go OFF social > security rolls? There's probably a form to fill out > (in triplicate) to > change your muggle vs. wizard status. Didn't someone suggest a shadow school or a front for Hogwarts? That instead of entering "Hogwarts" on the form, it'd be "Horntail" or some such on paper. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From saitaina at wizzards.net Thu Aug 16 08:48:08 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 01:48:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Parselmouth and the Basilisk References: <20010816051500.94708.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e501c12630$2ce55fc0$3f4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 24276 I honestly don't think Tom Riddle could 'manage' the horror within, I think it was pretty much dumb luck that the snake went after muggle borns. I mean honestly, how is a snake supposed to know if one kid was born to a muggle or not, it's not like Tom could give him a name and send the snake off on it's way. Their not wearing name tags nor would they give a giant snake their name and birth status. So Harry talking to the Basilisk in parsletounge wouldn't have done much except he'd get to listen to the snake go 'mmmm' while crunching. Saitaina ***** Taking a shower the next morning was probably the oddest experience of Draco 's life. He kept his eyes screwed shut so he wouldn't see Harry naked, but when he did look down by accident, his jaw dropped in amazement. "Would you look at that," he said, trying not to. " Congratulations, Potter." -Draco Dormains, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter (fanfic) Pimps beware! I was bringing the Master as back up. That's like carrying a thermonucular device to kill ands. Overkill has asleays been a specialty of mine.-The Lauging Corpse-Anita Blake, Vampie Hunter "It's not always the fangs ore the fur that makes you a monster, not always. Sometimes, it's just where you draw the line." -Dolph, "Burnt Offerings"-Anita Blake, Vampire Hunter From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 08:48:29 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 01:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA teachers In-Reply-To: <9lfqkm+uulb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010816084829.90485.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24277 Hello, --- cimorene21 at hotmail.com wrote: > Lupin, the best DADA teacher Harry's seen, seemed to > be teaching > wizarding street-smarts more than anything (I'm > exaggerating, enh). I, uh, respectfully disagree. Vehmently, even. I doubt many young wizards learn how to deal with, oh, boggarts while on the street, shopping for next year's spellbooks. > dangerous-- and, hence, not legal to teach for fear > of lawsuit, The possibility of a lawsuit is vastly different from something already banned by law, I think . Wasn't it said in one of the books that 6th and 7th year students get to learn 'real' stuff? Crouch Jr. as Moody only brought it a few years forward. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 08:55:48 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 01:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities/WizWorld structure In-Reply-To: <9lfth6+71r6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010816085548.98950.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24278 Hello, Steve Vander Ark wrote: > It seems to me that the amount of magical power > intristic to a > person, while by far the most important factor, is > not the only > criteria for entering Hogwarts. Influence from a > patron or a famous > family enters into the picture. Why else would > someone like Crabbe > or > Goyle make it into Hogwarts? Very true. And now that you brought it up, anyone have information on how Eton picks its students? I imagine something similar, but who knows... little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 08:58:42 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 01:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Parselmouth and the Basilisk In-Reply-To: <00e501c12630$2ce55fc0$3f4e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20010816085842.95439.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24279 Hello, Well, Harry certain understood the basilik when it was talking (hissing traveling through pipes), but he probably would have to *look* at it to talk to it, which would be a rather stupid thing to do, under the circumstances. Perhaps Tom had to cast a protection spell for himself before trying to control the basilik. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From saitaina at wizzards.net Thu Aug 16 09:14:25 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 02:14:25 -0700 Subject: Malfoy's robes, Peter as Scabbers, Gregory and Vincent References: <20010816085842.95439.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00fb01c12633$d9011940$3f4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 24280 Okay, we all know Lucius Malfoy is a renowned muggle hater. There's no arguing he likes em....so how does Draco get to King's Cross? Does his father actually take him through the sea of muggles? Do they arrive really early so no one's around? And what is Lucius and Draco wearing to 'blend' in? And what do the two of them USUALLY wear under their robes. We've seen from various sources (okay it's really the whittle drawing but it's a source) that the robes show whatever your wearing underneath...so if their not wearing muggle clothes....should I even finish that statement before you all go ewe on me? :) ***** Okay, WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY back in book one, before we knew Peter was Peter...there was a little rat named Scabbers, and he was a lazy rat, so lazy that he buried himself in a pile of sweets (or got buried mistakenly) and didn't wake up until some big goon named Gregory stuck his finger in said pile. Now here's my question...why did Peter as Scabbers, bite Goyle? He didn't have to. It's not like he ever really did anything as Scabbers beyond sleeping and shaking in a terrified manner. So why bite him at all? Was Goyle about to steal the Cauldron Cake he had been munching on in his sleep? **** Vincent Crabbe and Gregory Goyle, the two idiots of Slytherin...or are they? We've all known guys like them in school. Big, sorta quite, ASSUMED to be idiots (more muscles then brains), so could it all be an act? One of my more favored guy friends (AKA Teddy Bear) was a big guy like these two and was often assumed to be slow in the head and or dumb, but he actually was the 4th ranked in our class and quite brilliant, but in public he acted the part everyone assumed him to play. Could this be the case with Crabbe and Goyle? Could their fathers have taken them aside one day before their first year and said, 'Listen up son, you see that blonde prat over there? His name's Draco. His father's Lucius Malfoy and a real nasty bit of work. My advice to you is to stick by him, offer to beat up people for him...but don't show him how smart ye are, just grunt a lot around him, save you a lot of hassles while at school." Saitaina ***** Taking a shower the next morning was probably the oddest experience of Draco 's life. He kept his eyes screwed shut so he wouldn't see Harry naked, but when he did look down by accident, his jaw dropped in amazement. "Would you look at that," he said, trying not to. " Congratulations, Potter." -Draco Dormains, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter (fanfic) Pimps beware! I was bringing the Master as back up. That's like carrying a thermonucular device to kill ands. Overkill has asleays been a specialty of mine.-The Lauging Corpse-Anita Blake, Vampie Hunter "It's not always the fangs ore the fur that makes you a monster, not always. Sometimes, it's just where you draw the line." -Dolph, "Burnt Offerings"-Anita Blake, Vampire Hunter From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 09:40:04 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:40:04 -0000 Subject: Trap door, Wizarding/Muggle Worlds, Stan, Lockhart, Wormtail, DADA Message-ID: <9lg4dk+bcjr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24281 Marcus wrote (thank you, Marcus, for being the only person LOONy enough to care about my trap door question): > If the castle was built on a mountain top, it is unlikely that it was > built on a totally flat piece of ground. There aren't too many mesas > in Great Britain. So it is entirely possible that the third floor > (fourth floor to us Yanks) in that portion of the castle is only a > floor or two above ground at that point. LOL at the image of a mesa rising from the arid plains of Scotland. In a Muggle building, if there are any floors below the trap door, then when you go through the trap door you fall *one* floor. The other alternative would be a shaft cutting through all the floors below, so that the second-floor corridor would have an enormous shaft one needed to walk around. It's possible that there is nothing but mountain under the third-floor corridor, but I like the magical explanation better. Mindy wrote: > Or are wizards so > magical that they can worm their way out of any emergency -- fire, > burglary, and illness To which Joywitch responded: > Again, I would have thought that that was pretty obvious. Remember > Hagrid saying "No car crash could have killed James and Lily Potter"? I take Hagrid's remark with a grain of salt, as many of Hagrid's remarks should be taken. While there are no doubt many protections that make it unlikely for wizards to die in car crashes, magical folk are perfectly capable of being killed in accidents. Everyone seemed pretty worried that a fifty-foot fall would kill Harry--it took a spell to keep him from hitting the ground at full speed. No spell--->splat. Other examples abound. So the answer to Mindy's question is, no, wizards are not completely immune from injury and illness. Robyn wrote (welcome, Robyn!): > I mean, in GoF, when Harry, Ron and Hermione were all searching for a > recipe that would enable Harry to breathe underwater, Hermione HAD to be > wishing for a database. And they do wish for an aqualung (though gillyweed turns out to be a better, if slimier, alternative). The wizarding world is not superior to the Muggle world in every way. > Which brings up another question - I'd love to know the Gringotts > exchange rate for Muggle and Wizard currency - I wonder whose economy is > stronger? Don't know about the relative economies, but for the exchange rate in March 2001, see the back of Fantastic Beasts or Quidditch Through the Ages (but don't look too closely; the implied exchange between U.S. dollars and pounds is way off). Steve wrote: > Stan was > exceptonally dim ("See you, Neville!" to someone whose identity has > just been revealed to him as NOT Neville but instead a famous > celebrity) I read this line as a combination of humor on Stan's part and that habit that keeps you calling someone by the name you first knew him by even when it's changed. Or one or the other. Re: attraction to Lockhart. We can only speculate on who JKR might have modeled him on, but without jumping to conclusions, we do know that she married a man and thought better of it very quickly. So she knows something about falling for someone and then realizing he is a complete and utter jerk. Happens to the best of us. Katzefan wrote: > 3) After Harry keeps Sirius and Lupin from killing Wormtail, > Dumbledore tells Harry that when one wizard saves another, it > creates a bond, and that he has handed Voldemort back a > servant who is indebted to Voldemort's worst enemy. There was > certainly no sign in GoF that Wormtail remembered that debt. Any > speculation on whether he ever will? I'd bet my broomstick he will, although it may only give him a twinge or make him hesitate. I'm hoping it will be something that turns the tide but not be a case of PP having a complete change of heart. I also think there is a sign in GoF. Chapter 1 (i.e., just weeks after the events of PoA): A slight pause followed--and then Wormtail spoke, the words tumbling from him in a rush, as though he was forcing himself to say this before he lost his nerve. "It could be done without Harry Potter, my Lord." Another pause, more protracted, and then-- "Without Harry Potter?" breathed the second voice softly. "I see . . . " "My Lord, I do not say this out of concern for the boy!" said Wormtail, his voice rising squeakily. "The boy is nothing to me, nothing at all! It is merely that if we were to use another witch or wizard--any wizard--the thing could be done so much more quickly!" The rat doth protest too much, methinks. He has other reasons besides sympathy for Harry to urge a different course of action: it would be easier and safer to kidnap a random witch/wizard off the street, and perhaps he is also afraid of Harry's power. But "the boy is nothing to me" is very revealing. Cimorene21 wrote: > Also-- it seems to me that DADA is something of a bullshit course: > rather like the Health requirement in American high schools. > Lupin, the best DADA teacher Harry's seen, seemed to be teaching > wizarding street-smarts more than anything (I'm exaggerating, enh). > The only teacher they've had that tought them serious spell > protection was Moody, As Moody said, Lupin focused on teaching them to deal with Dark creatures. There are lots of other things to learn in DADA. I don't think DADA is BS or mere common sense. Steve gave one good reason; here are a few more. Looking at Lupin's class, the only year of DADA where we actually witness lessons: (a) The students learn the specific incantations and spells that fend off particular creatures (Riddikulus for Boggarts, that boiling-water thing for Grindylows). (b) They learn the characteristics of various creatures so that they know the principles of what needs to be done. (c) They train in the subtler side of magic: the state of mind necessary to make spells effective. E.g. the word "Riddikulus" isn't enough to fight off a Boggart; one has to hold a certain image in mind, and that takes practice. Advanced classes cover things like the Patronus, presumably dragons, etc. Amy Z who is really thrilled to hear that we're going to meet the Brazilian boa again--thanks, Rita! ----------------------------------------- The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe. --Dr. Leonard McCoy, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home ----------------------------------------- From tabouli at unite.com.au Thu Aug 16 11:28:47 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:28:47 +1000 Subject: Various, inc. other uses for the Sorting Hat Message-ID: <009401c12646$c3047520$6f856fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 24282 Dave: > Did you notice that bit when they talked about the boa that escaped from its master's > house USING THE PIPES and showed up in someone else's bathroom toilet?! I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that reptiles in the plumbing is common in the tropics! Even in Singapore the concrete jungle you get cute little lizards on the walls. What worries me is what happened to the basilisk when there was water in the pipes: didn't it drown, or were the pipes big enough for it to breathe and still slither about? And don't most snakes hibernate in winter? Surely around Christmastime in Scotland any self-respecting snake would be curled up by the hearth in the Chamber of Secrets... Kelly: > This fits the theory that the place the Trio will go that they've not been yet is St. Mungo's What a creepy place that would be: all those people who lost their minds through the Cruciatus curse. I also wonder if that's where they put people who've been kissed by Dementors (assuming such people don't become Dementors themselves). Perhaps the trio will go there to check out Barty Junior and Lockhart and the Longbottoms. Catherine: > How does Sirius communicate with Crookshanks? We know that Crookshanks is part Kneazle - does this enable him to understand humans? You know, the creature that really intrigues me is Mrs Norris. JKR has mentioned that the cats in the book are very important, and I'm sure there's something fishy going on there (plus Warner have made her a ginger tabby! Ghh. Didn't they read that she's meant to be dust-coloured?). How does she summon Filch, and why is he so devoted to her? His only friend in a cruel Squib world, or something else? I still suspect that she's his accidentally stuck in cat form beloved myself, but that's just me... Ah yes, and something I've been meaning to ask for ages: what do people think the story is with Peeves? I am perishing with curiosity about what he is and why he's afraid of the Bloody Baron. Someone once said that poltergeists are manifestations of nervous energy or something, hence likely to flourish around teenagers. How is a poltergeist different from a ghost? Is Peeves just a special category of ghost? He did attend the deathday party, after all. little Alex: > But there *are* universities in medieval times. The nobility didn't use > them, yes, but they still existed, no? (for scribes and some such, iirc) > So, I assume that Malfoys wouldn't deign to attend a university, but I have > no doubt that the Weasleys would do so if given the opportunity. I'm still convinced that the Weasleys *are* nobility, albeit impoverished and struggling nobility. They're an old wizarding family, after all. I'm open to correction from British listmembers and other people who know more about this than me, but I've always thought that in Britain your "class" is based much more on your bloodline and land ownership than on how much actual money you have. In fact, those of noble blood would be greatly insulted to be lumped with those vulgar nouveaux riches (sp? I never know with these French borrowings) peasants who've earned money through something as common as work. My idea was that the Weasleys, after generations of dividing up the family estate among dozens of red-haired children and selling off property to support them, ended up reduced to the plot of land where The Burrow stands and having to work for a living. OTOH, the Malfoys, through scrupulous years of one child families, still have a sweeping family estate and fortune. The other thing I've been musing on in none other than that ol' Sorting Hat. "There's nothing hidden in your head the Sorting Hat can't see", eh? Does this mean that you could get a complete rundown on a person's thoughts and intentions simply by slapping the Hat on them? Is the Hat bound to a code of secrecy, or is it prepared to talk about what it sees in people's heads to other people, e.g. Dumbledore? Hey, why bother with Veritaserum when he could just try the hat on every new DADA teacher that walks through the door? "You may look just like Moody, But the Sorting Hat's no slouch: I see from what's inside your head That you are Barty Crouch! You're planning to kill Harry Raise Lord Voldemort, and more, Bad luck, my friend, I've caught you out I'm telling Dumbledore!" And so on. Hey, sure beats the Myer-Briggs for sorting out job candidates... Tabouli. etc....! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorbandb at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 13:02:09 2001 From: dorbandb at yahoo.com (dorbandb at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:02:09 -0000 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions In-Reply-To: <9lf350+qi48@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lgg8h+mt46@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24283 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorbandb at y... wrote: > > I am pretty convinced that dragons speak parseltongue (regardless of > > the lack of Canonical evidence). Dragons are very wise and magical > > creatures and probably not only speak parseltongue, but are > magically > > multilingual - far more than Barty Crouch - speaking all manner of > > tongues and dialects. > > > > Brian > > Then how come Harry didn't hear them muttering threats to their > keepers? Nor did he hear the HH warning him to keep away from her > eggs. > > Marcus Harry didn't understand the HH because she wasn't necessarily speaking parseltongue. I think dragons are multilingual but parseltongue is not their native tongue, it is but one of many. I also don't think dragons especially *want* to communicate with wizards; but I stick with my gut notion that they *can* and my prediction that they *will.* I just like to speculate like everyone else. Brian From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 13:06:23 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:06:23 -0000 Subject: Amanda Rants Again In-Reply-To: <20010816024149.72836.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lgggf+8ala@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24284 Thank you Amanda for speaking your mind, and speaking it so well. Here, here! I know this group has its ups and downs, but it is a wonderful group. Please folks, let us all work together to keep the quality high and the discussion rivetting! Tipping my hat, Suzanne From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 13:25:44 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:25:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mindy: Some possible avenues of thought. Message-ID: <20010816.092620.-67439.2.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24285 > Didn't someone suggest a shadow school or a front for > Hogwarts? That instead of entering "Hogwarts" on the > form, it'd be "Horntail" or some such on paper. > > little Alex > I don't understand why it's necessary to go out into the Muggle world. Actually, in terms of jobs, I buy a lot of stuff that could be wizard made. Little crystal unicorns, rustic handmade stuff, even hand-woven cloth. So it may not even be necessary to have a Muggle job, identity. Maybe there's an exportation dept. at Gringotts. It's a little bigoted to assume that wizards would NEED to live in our world. I'm still a proponent of an open "wizard/muggle economy." And Rita wrote: I keep trying to figure out the wizarding economy. It keeps not having enough people for people to be able to actually make a being selling robes or playing Quidditch or most of the things they do for jobs. The income from most of their jobs would be more in the range of income from a hobby. The only way I can make it make sense to me is if all the wizarding folk, in addition to their inheritances, wages, etc, receive a subsidy that is probably only enough for bare subsistence. I like to think that wizarding money DOES grow on trees, very special trees that are in MoM custody, and the subsidies sent to each wizard each year come from that year's harvest of those trees. No, no, please don't make all the wizards be on the dole!!!!!!!! Trust me, you can make a great living making a lot of things wizards could make. Who knows - maybe some car companies have secretly subcontracted with wizards to put Unbreakable charms on things. I think the economy can work. I think for the Weasleys, it's just a strain bec. of tuition, books, Floo powder etc. Also, MoM employees probably are paid low bec. everyone expects them to take kickbacks. Robyn, who says "Thanks for the welcome!" From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 12:41:50 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:41:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various, inc. other uses for the Sorting Hat Message-ID: <20010816.092619.-67439.0.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24286 Tabouli wrote: >The other thing I've been musing on in none other than that ol' Sorting Hat. "There's >nothing hidden in your head the Sorting Hat can't see", eh? Does this mean that >you could get a complete rundown on a person's thoughts and intentions simply by >slapping the Hat on them? Is the Hat bound to a code of secrecy, or is it prepared >to talk about what it sees in people's heads to other people, e.g. Dumbledore? >Hey, why bother with Veritaserum when he could just try the hat on every new >DADA teacher that walks through the door? Maybe it's just good at detecting basic personality types - a Gryffindor type, a Hufflepuff type. We know that just reading Hermione's thoughts would probably place her right in Ravenclaw and Neville would place him in Hufflepuff. But the Sorting Hat was able to read into their PERSONALITIES, not thoughts, and place them into Gryffindor. We know that Harry had a mental dialogue with the hat, but we hear it diagnosing his personality more than his thoughts. It sure beats Rorshach blots! Robyn - who is still choosing a quote and wants to use them all! From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 13:14:29 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:14:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy's robes, Peter as Scabbers, Gregory and Vincent Message-ID: <20010816.092620.-67439.1.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24287 > Okay, WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY back in book one, before we knew Peter was > Peter...there was a little rat named Scabbers, and he was a lazy > rat, so > lazy that he buried himself in a pile of sweets (or got buried > mistakenly) > and didn't wake up until some big goon named Gregory stuck his > finger in > said pile. Now here's my question...why did Peter as Scabbers, bite > Goyle? > He didn't have to. It's not like he ever really did anything as > Scabbers > beyond sleeping and shaking in a terrified manner. So why bite him > at all? > Was Goyle about to steal the Cauldron Cake he had been munching on > in his > sleep? I bet it was like a reflex. He felt a hand that looked familiar on him, and thought it was his fellow Death Eater, Goyle Sr. and immediately bit him. This would also have the effect of warning all Slytherins to leave Ron Weasly's mangy rat alone. Peter would not like a practical joke where Draco stole Scabbers and took him home over vacation - WAY too dangerous. > Vincent Crabbe and Gregory Goyle, the two idiots of Slytherin...or > are they? > We've all known guys like them in school. Big, sorta quite, ASSUMED > to be > idiots (more muscles then brains), so could it all be an act? One > of my > more favored guy friends (AKA Teddy Bear) was a big guy like these > two and > was often assumed to be slow in the head and or dumb, but he > actually was > the 4th ranked in our class and quite brilliant, but in public he > acted the > part everyone assumed him to play. Could this be the case with > Crabbe and > Goyle? Could their fathers have taken them aside one day before > their first > year and said, 'Listen up son, you see that blonde prat over there? > His > name's Draco. His father's Lucius Malfoy and a real nasty bit of > work. My > advice to you is to stick by him, offer to beat up people for > him...but > don't show him how smart ye are, just grunt a lot around him, save > you a lot > of hassles while at school." > Saitaina No, I just think they're STOOPID. But rich scions of an old wizarding family, hence their automatic admission to Hogwarts. We know that powerful magical objects (like the good ol' Goblet of Fire) can be Confunded, so probably some Ministry official can be "persuaded" to ahem..."persuade" the book and quill to accept people. There's strong intimation in the books that Mr. Weasley is only poor because he is so honest, and I could imagine other, unscrupulous Ministry officials getting quite wealthy on such kickbacks. Robyn From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Aug 16 13:36:28 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:36:28 -0000 Subject: DADA , Snape and Slytherin In-Reply-To: <9lft0q+bfm6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lgi8s+hgd2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24288 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cimorene21 at h... wrote: > >DADA is training students the why of magic, not just the how. It's >like ethics courses for doctors. Without a thorough training in >this, a school trains wizards with no foundation of good and evil. >The product would be ammoral, easily-swayed wizards who wield power >without the understanding that would keep them on the side of the >right and good. It's all about intention. Which brings us to a question that is heavy on my mind. Is Draco Malfoy evil, or merely the product of poor examples in his mother and father? How about Snape and the whole Slytherin gang? I am sure this has been discussed before on the group, but I am asking specifically what qualifies one as an evil wizard, or a potentially evil wizard. Obviously it is something in the character of the person before they reach Hogwarts, because the Sorting Hat seems to sort the prideful, ambitious, snobby and hateful people into Slytherin. But are these the only evils? Cornelius Fudge is going to do terrible damage in the next book IMO and I doubt that he is a Slytherin alum. His blindness to the real danger, and his complacency with easy answers are just as dangerous as the active plotting of Malfoy, sr. I agree with Steve about the purpose of the school to be to train character as much as talent (see my prior post Re: Magical Talent and Wands Part Two). The challenge comes in admitting that teaching right and wrong means that we voluntarily choose NOT to do things we are perfectly capable of doing. Good people voluntarily restrain themselves. Voldy says to Quirrell in PS/SS "The Man With Two Faces": (paraphrasing) "There is no right and wrong, only power, and those too weak to use it." As a result Dumbledore observes in chapter two that Voldy has "powers I never had", but Minerva immediately replies "that's only because you are to noble to use them". The difference between Voldy and Dumbledore, then, is Dumbledore's sense of restraint. I think Snape would like to be the DADA teacher, because he knows more about the dark arts than anybody else at Hogwarts, with the possible exception of Prof D (In PoA, doesn't someone say that Snape came to school knowing more curses than most kids ever learned in their 7 years?) Drak Arts is Snape's natural interest, he likes power, and was probably a Death Eater because of these natural inclinations. But he learned somehow to restrain himself. He pulled back from evil. So, my question is where do Slytherins learn restraint? 4FR From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 16 13:41:39 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:41:39 -0000 Subject: Various, inc. other uses for the Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <009401c12646$c3047520$6f856fcb@price> Message-ID: <9lgiij+toc8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24289 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > > Kelly: > > This fits the theory that the place the Trio will go that they've not been yet is St. Mungo's> And Tabouli responded: > > What a creepy place that would be: all those people who lost their minds through the Cruciatus curse. I also wonder if that's where they put people who've been kissed by Dementors (assuming such people don't become Dementors themselves). Perhaps the trio will go there to check out Barty Junior and Lockhart and the Longbottoms.> I don't recall JKR saying that the Trio would all be going somewhere new. I remember her mentioning only *Harry* would visit somewhere he's never been. Maybe someone can clear this up for me? --jennyy from ravenclaw ************************************** From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 13:37:53 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:37:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities/WizWorld structure Message-ID: <20010816.093808.-67439.3.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24290 > magpie1112 wrote: > I've always figured that there was some kind of apprenticeship > program in the Wizarding World. You graduate from Hogwarts, and > then > are put into a basic-level apprenticing (sort of like the old ways > of > training solicitors and nurses). For example, Bill Weasley would, > after Hogwarts, go to Gringotts and begin his work as an > apprentice/assistant (much like what Pearcy is doing now). After a > period of time, Bill goes out on his own as a full-fledged member of > > Gringotts. > > This seems perfectly logical, and even necessary, especially for > Mediwizards. (I'm assuming that no colleges or universities also > means no medical schools.) It'd be like the internships of today. > (Well, not exactly, but you get the same real-world experience.) > After all, being able to heal is obviously the most important aspect > > of being a Mediwizard, but you also have to learn to deal with > people > and emergency situations. > > Deva (who is on the young side but is desperately trying to think > like a mature adult) Maybe even if there are no universities, there are professional societies which train their members - something akin to the American Psychological Association. We know that Lockhart is a member of the Dark Force Defense League, and Dumbledore is a member of a whole bunch of organizations. So maybe they confer their own degrees and honors, apart from large organized universities. So Bill could become a "Curse Breaking Specialist, first class with some experience in Egyptology." etc. And Madam Pomfrey, upon graduation from Hogwarts, might have worked at St. Mungo's and gotten the wizarding equivilent of a "nurse practitioner" specialization. Robyn, who thinks Deva is doing just fine at mature thinking and communicating. From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 13:48:00 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:48:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA , Snape and Slytherin Message-ID: <20010816.094811.-67439.4.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24291 > Which brings us to a question that is heavy on my mind. Is Draco > Malfoy evil, or merely the product of poor examples in his mother > and > father? How about Snape and the whole Slytherin gang? I am sure > this has been discussed before on the group, but I am asking > specifically what qualifies one as an evil wizard, or a potentially > evil wizard. > > Obviously it is something in the character of the person before they > > reach Hogwarts, because the Sorting Hat seems to sort the prideful, > ambitious, snobby and hateful people into Slytherin. But are these > the only evils? Cornelius Fudge is going to do terrible damage in > the > next book IMO and I doubt that he is a Slytherin alum. His > blindness > to the real danger, and his complacency with easy answers are just > as > dangerous as the active plotting of Malfoy, sr. > > I agree with Steve about the purpose of the school to be to train > character as much as talent (see my prior post Re: Magical Talent > and Wands Part Two). The challenge comes in admitting that teaching > > right and wrong means that we voluntarily choose NOT to do things we > > are perfectly capable of doing. Good people voluntarily restrain > themselves. > > As a result Dumbledore observes in chapter two that Voldy has > "powers > I never had", but Minerva immediately replies "that's only because > you are to noble to use them". The difference between Voldy and > Dumbledore, then, is Dumbledore's sense of restraint. > So, my question is where do Slytherins learn restraint? The Sorting Hat tells Harry he would have done well in Slytherin. Dumbledore says Harry has certain superficial similarities to Voldy. JKR clearly is talking towards voilition and choice. There's a certain personality type that would do well in Slytherin, but they can do as Harry did and say "NOT SLYTHERIN" Or, once in Slytherin, they can become disgusted with cheating, etc. and go another way. Also, Slytherin House is huge. But we see there are not that many actual powerful Death Eaters. So a lot do learn restraint, or at least live just barely on this side of the law. Think of all the Slytherin grads of every year for so many years, yet not all become Death Eaters. That's not to say that a lot of them don't grow up to get jobs on Knockturn Alley, they probably do. But they aren't overtly evil in the Malfoy sense. Maybe they do a little Muggle baiting on the side, etc. But they are not totally evil. And I still think Draco is redeemable and probably will have a moment of choice in the end. Crabbe and Goyle are just ignorant, and ignorance is a breeding ground for hate. Robyn From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 14:06:54 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:06:54 -0000 Subject: Talking to Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lgk1u+dvtv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24292 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "princesskatie115 -" wrote: > I think the reason that Slytherin and his descendents (and Harry- the-fluke) > can speak to snakes is due mainly to the fact that Slytherin pulled a > Voldemort. Aha I've lost you haven't I? Allow me to explain my theory . Like > the big V experimented with immortality, Slytherin experimented and > unearthed this ability (for lack of a better word) to speak to snakes, who > he happened to feel a certain affinity with. [snip] But there is a connection between immortality and snakes that's being forgotten here. Snakes have long been a symbol of immortality because their sloughing their skins was considered a death and rebirth (much like the phoenix's). Their shape also caused them to be considered an axis mundi (world axis, or connection between this world and the next). In their elongated form, they are also phallic symbols, while in their circular or coiled forms they are considered yonic symbols (the womb). As such they are considered to be hermaphroditic, or symbolizing both male and female sexuality. Anything that regularly dies and is reborn, and bridges worlds and the sexes is considered very powerful. Many ancient fertility cults were snake-centric, and many ancient goddess statues are shown with the goddesses clutching snakes. So the two great wizards each have a creature associated with them that is a symbol of death and resurrection...Dumbledore with Fawkes, Voldemort with Nagini. Harry is like a cross between the two. He was considered for Slytherin and placed in Gryffindor; he can speak to snakes and Fawkes comes to him when he demonstrates his loyalty to Dumbledore. Like many great heroes, Harry has a foot in two different worlds, and must reconcile these, rather than choose. Traditionally, heroes faced with this conundrum who choose one or the other rather than reconciling the seeming contradictions are worse off, as they are out of balance when they choose. JKR has shown consistently that the world isn't black and white, and I think she will present even more seeming moral ambiguities before the end... --Barb From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 14:27:45 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:27:45 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mindy: Some possible avenues of thought. References: <20010816.092620.-67439.2.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <008c01c1265f$a05a36e0$4d06bacb@hal9000> No: HPFGUIDX 24293 Hello, From: "Yis M Koslowitz" > I don't understand why it's necessary to go out into the Muggle world. Well, we were talking about only Muggle-born students, where it would be necessary for the child to be in a some school on record (the parents will go to jail if their kid isn't going to school, no?). So, to keep Hogwarts a secret and the lower officials happy, wouldn't you need some sort of a front for Hogwarts regarding Muggle-born students? Actually, talking about that, why haven't social services or some such gone to the Dursleys to ask them why they are keeping a certain Harry Potter from an education? > It's a little bigoted to > assume that wizards would NEED to live in our world. I'm still a I didn't assume that, but if Hogsmeade is the only village with a completely wizard population, the logical conclusion is that the rest of the wizards live within Muggle neighborhoods. And we were talking about the wizards/witches who choose to move into the Muggle world (decided to marry a Muggle, whatever). little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 14:29:36 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:29:36 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities/WizWorld structure References: <20010816.093808.-67439.3.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <009401c1265f$e14db780$4d06bacb@hal9000> No: HPFGUIDX 24294 Hello, From: "Yis M Koslowitz" > Maybe even if there are no universities, there are professional societies > which train their members - something akin to the American Psychological > Association. Uh, but none of those trains any of its members, no? What about guilds? How do they work? Would it be possible for wizards/witches who want jobs that need further training to go into guilds as we know them? little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 14:29:19 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:29:19 -0000 Subject: Mindy: Some possible avenues of thought. In-Reply-To: <20010816.092620.-67439.2.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lglbv+cnne@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24295 Somebody wrote about whether all wizards received some kind of subsidy to help them support themselves. This reminds me of the Native American Nations here in North America. Each member of a given tribe, if they can prove they are above a certain percentage Navajo, Sioux, or whatever the tribe in question is, receives a share of the tribe's income each year, just for being them. Many tribes have permission to do things like run casinos on reservations, which are very lucrative and greatly increase the amount each person in the tribe receives each year. Then someone else said they didn't like the idea of all wizards being on the "dole," and I had a thought: If Ministry employees get a salary from their jobs (as they must, to support themselves) there must be some sort of wizard taxation system to finance the salaries, as well as pay for office supplies and other overhead. I've been unable to figure out exactly how the Ministry would track wizards' incomes, however. And wouldn't there have to be a Department of Wizard Taxation or some such thing? Of course, they could do the whole thing through tariffs on goods, such as the things sold in Diagon Alley, Knockturn Alley, etc., but that wouldn't be as fair. Any thoughts? --Barb From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 14:22:57 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:22:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities/WizWorld structure Message-ID: <20010816.102309.-67439.5.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24296 On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:29:36 +0800 "Alexandra Y. Kwan" writes: > Hello, > > From: "Yis M Koslowitz" > > Maybe even if there are no universities, there are professional > societies > > which train their members - something akin to the American > Psychological > > Association. > > Uh, but none of those trains any of its members, no? Yes they do. The APA, for ex. both accredits university programs AND runs schools of Proffessional Psychology. Also, once you have an MD you can join a specific type of society and get different types of training. For example,Holistic Healing societies, which confer supplemental degrees without being actual universities. Don't you think the Dark Force Defense League runs advanced training and seminars for members? Robyn From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 14:37:51 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:37:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mindy: Some possible avenues of thought. Message-ID: <20010816.103950.-67439.9.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24297 On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:27:45 +0800 "Alexandra Y. Kwan" writes: > Hello, > > From: "Yis M Koslowitz" > > I don't understand why it's necessary to go out into the Muggle > world. > > Well, we were talking about only Muggle-born students, where it > would be > necessary for the child to be in a some school on record (the > parents will > go to jail if their kid isn't going to school, no?). So, to keep > Hogwarts a > secret and the lower officials happy, wouldn't you need some sort of > a front > for Hogwarts regarding Muggle-born students? Actually, talking > about that, > why haven't social services or some such gone to the Dursleys to ask > them > why they are keeping a certain Harry Potter from an education? > > > It's a little bigoted to > > assume that wizards would NEED to live in our world. I'm still a > > I didn't assume that, but if Hogsmeade is the only village with a > completely > wizard population, the logical conclusion is that the rest of the > wizards > live within Muggle neighborhoods. And we were talking about the > wizards/witches who choose to move into the Muggle world (decided to > marry a > Muggle, whatever). > > little Alex OK, thanks for clarifying. I still think there's some cross polination between the two governments, so all could be taken care of by a secret computer code that is magically reinforced to be unnoticeable. Harry's name comes up and is immediately associated with this code and it looks legit. As far as living in the Muggle world, you could still get a job in a wizard factory, making cauldrons for example, and choose to draw your salary from Gringotts in Muggle money. And living in the muggle world just means inhabiting it. It doesn't necessarily mean participating in it. My neighbor could be a witch married to a wizard, and they'd look totally normal to me - both going off to jobs ,etc. Robyn From tkoz1 at juno.com Thu Aug 16 14:33:28 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:33:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities/WizWorld structure Message-ID: <20010816.103950.-67439.8.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24298 On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:29:36 +0800 "Alexandra Y. Kwan" writes: > > What about guilds? How do they work? Would it be possible for > wizards/witches who want jobs that need further training to go into > guilds > as we know them? > > little Alex Sorry to splinch my message, Alexandra, but I thought of something the second I hit send. What I'm envisioning are professional societies, which are distinct from guilds. Guilds train their members from apprenticeship up, but these would be comprised of only high level wizards. Remember in GoF, when Lupin tells Harry that the Wolfsbane Potion was only recently invented? So, I'm proposing a proffesional PotionMakers society, where high level potion makers would get together, and would present papers about potions. Snape could have attended and learned about this new potion that another wizard had invented. Anyone could join these societies, provided they can pass a basic mastery test and afford yearly dues. Then, as you advance through the society, you get degrees. So if you invent something new, you get a degree for that. Robyn From kira at kc.rr.com Thu Aug 16 14:51:47 2001 From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:51:47 -0500 Subject: Marauder's Map Message-ID: <010f01c12662$fb5840c0$a473f2d1@lisaannc> No: HPFGUIDX 24299 I am new to the list so if this has come up before, I apologize. I was wondering if it had been asked in any chats that JKR participated in, or any interviews, if Harry received his map back after Crouch/Moody had it. Dumbledore asks about it but the book never shows Harry retrieving it. I know he had more important issues to deal with but it would probably be a big help in book 5. LA ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~ Lisa-Ann Cooner Kira at kc.rr.com AOL IM - Kira4798 ICQ - 7378058 His laughter was a touchable, intrusive thing. He could do things with his voice that most men couldn't do with their hands. Blue Moon by Laurell K. Hamilton ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 15:08:13 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:08:13 -0000 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions In-Reply-To: <9lgg8h+mt46@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lgnkt+nun0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24300 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorbandb at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorbandb at y... wrote: > > > I am pretty convinced that dragons speak parseltongue (regardless > of > > > the lack of Canonical evidence). Dragons are very wise and > magical > > > creatures and probably not only speak parseltongue, but are > > magically > > > multilingual - far more than Barty Crouch - speaking all manner of > > > tongues and dialects. > > > > > > Brian > > > > Then how come Harry didn't hear them muttering threats to their > > keepers? Nor did he hear the HH warning him to keep away from her > > eggs. > > > > Marcus > > Harry didn't understand the HH because she wasn't necessarily speaking > parseltongue. I think dragons are multilingual but parseltongue is > not their native tongue, it is but one of many. I also don't think > dragons especially *want* to communicate with wizards; but I stick > with my gut notion that they *can* and my prediction that they *will.* > > I just like to speculate like everyone else. > > Brian I love to speculate too, but the fun is making sure there aren't any holes in said speculation. With that in mind -- then how come the HH didn't speak English? And if they are so intelligent, then how come they couldn't tell there was a fake amongst their eggs? One smash half her own eggs defending the fake. Another got zapped in the eye. That has got to hurt. If they are so intelligent, then why go through all that agony defending a ringer? Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 15:18:29 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:18:29 -0000 Subject: universities/WizWorld structure In-Reply-To: <20010816.103950.-67439.8.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lgo85+101ff@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24301 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > > > On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:29:36 +0800 "Alexandra Y. Kwan" > writes: > > > > > What about guilds? How do they work? Would it be possible for > > wizards/witches who want jobs that need further training to go into > > guilds > > as we know them? > > > > little Alex > > Sorry to splinch my message, Alexandra, but I thought of something the > second I hit send. > What I'm envisioning are professional societies, which are distinct from > guilds. Guilds train their members from apprenticeship up, but these > would be comprised of only high level wizards. > Remember in GoF, when Lupin tells Harry that the Wolfsbane Potion was > only recently invented? > So, I'm proposing a proffesional PotionMakers society, where high level > potion makers would get together, and would present papers about potions. > Snape could have attended and learned about this new potion that another > wizard had invented. Anyone could join these societies, provided they can > pass a basic mastery test and afford yearly dues. Then, as you advance > through the society, you get degrees. So if you invent something new, you > get a degree for that. > Robyn I like the idea of apprenticeship. Otherwise, where did Madam Pomfrey get her training in advance healing arts? Marcus From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 16 15:21:37 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:21:37 -0000 Subject: Random Parseltongue questions In-Reply-To: <9ldt5j+1bti@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lgoe1+dsbl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24302 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorbandb at y... wrote: > I am pretty convinced that dragons speak parseltongue (regardless of > the lack of Canonical evidence). Dragons are very wise and magical > creatures and probably not only speak parseltongue, but are magically > multilingual - far more than Barty Crouch - speaking all manner of > tongues and dialects. Granted that dragons are certainly magical, but what is it that makes JKR's dragons seem "wise?" They seem to me to be thouroughly reptilian, without higher communicative powers. Newt Scamander's FB makes no mention of dragons having elevated linguistic abilities or particular wisdom. JKR takes a thoroughly unsentimental view of these mythical creatures. The great humor of the Hagrid/Norbert relationship is Hagrid treating this cold-blooded and rapidly growing agent of destruction as if it were some Anne McCaffrey plush toy. This could change in future books, but I currently see no evidence of "Crouching" Dragons. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 16 15:36:17 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:36:17 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <010f01c12662$fb5840c0$a473f2d1@lisaannc> Message-ID: <9lgp9h+3bem@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24303 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" wrote: > I am new to the list so if this has come up before, I apologize. I was wondering if it had been asked in any chats that JKR participated in, or any interviews, if Harry received his map back after Crouch/Moody had it. Dumbledore asks about it but the book never shows Harry retrieving it. I know he had more important issues to deal with but it would probably be a big help in book 5. AFAIK, JKR hasn't said anything about her plans for the Map in Book Five. My guess is that the Map will be heading back to Filch's drawer for good, given its penchant for creating unresolved narrative discord - e.g., how come no one ever noticed that "Pete Pettigrew" hung out with Ron so often, or why didn't Harry notice that "Alastor Moody" never left his office (since he was locked away in his own trunk) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From hyria at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 15:41:26 2001 From: hyria at yahoo.com (Catriona) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:41:26 -0000 Subject: Exchange rates and the Wizarding economy (was:Lockhart - Magical Ability & Wands Message-ID: <9lgpj6+nh2c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24304 Robyn wrote: > I'd love to know the Gringotts exchange rate > for Muggle and Wizard currency - I wonder whose > economy is stronger? Catlady replied: >JKR said that a Galleon is worth five pounds (about seven dollars). I >don't believe it: a look at the prices that Harry pays for things >suggests that the Galleon is worth something from $25 to $40 in >modern money. I've just done a few calculations based on the price on the back of the UK QTTA where we are given that the price ?2.50 equates to 14 Sickles 3 Knuts. We know (PS p58) that 1 Galleon = 17 Sickles and that 1 Sickle = 29 Knuts. Because 14S 3K = 409 Knuts = 250p We can calculate that: 1p = 1.64 Knuts ?1 = 162 Knuts = 5.58 Sickles = 0.32 Galleons We can now estimate the value of Wizarding currency in terms of Sterling (based on the exhange rate at the time of QTTA's publication): 1 Galleon = ?3.04 1 Sickle = 17.85p 1 Knut = 0.62p (Apologies for any rounding error) If I have time later I might even calculate an optimal exchange rate for Gringotts. I am working on a detailed analysis of the wizarding economy to illustrate just how it can function effiiciently [Don't worry, I'm not really insane, this is useful revision for my MSc] Catriona From issybizz at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 15:47:01 2001 From: issybizz at hotmail.com (issybizz at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:47:01 -0000 Subject: Ginny Message-ID: <9lgptl+dmj4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24305 After reading harry potter, i was taken with ginny. Although she is a minor character, she shows a lot of potential to become a great one. In CoS ron told harry that ginny 'never shuts up normally' - this indocates to me that we haven't seen the true ginny. Possably, i would like to see ginny going out with Draco, this would make a great story because ron will become v. aggressive and maybe Nevell would become jealous and we would see his braveness come to the surface again. Ginny also seems very brave. The first time she speeks infornt of harry is was when she sticks up to draco for insulting harry in CoS. {'leave him alone, he didn't want all that!' It was the first time ginny had spoken in front of harry. She was glaring at malfoy'). It is this that makes me believe that we haven;t seen half of what ginny is capably of. In the future books, i hope i get to see more of the real, strong minded ginny. She reminds me a little bit of harry. Ron is overshaddowed by harry & heromine and feels he isn't given credit where credit is due - i feel that ginny has been overshaddowed in the books too. Also in CoS harry seems to be embarrest when he a love dwarf was giving him his love letter in front of Ginny, 'Hot all over at the thought of being a valentine infront of a queue of first-years, which happened to include Ginny Weasley' (p117-UK). Does anyone agree with me about Ginny or do you feel that im way off the truth? From mindyatime at juno.com Thu Aug 16 16:06:01 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:06:01 -0400 Subject: Why didn't Sirius escape? Message-ID: <20010816.120609.-386425.9.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24306 I'm sorry if this has been debated before, but I am wondering why Sirius couldn't just transform back into a dog and disappear, once he was captured. Why did he need the elaborate TimeTurner machination? Also, I did kind of like Draco the first time I 'met' him in Diagon Alley. I was kinda suprised that he turned out to be such a brat. Thirdly, if Dumbledore is the greatest wizard of his generation, why is he 'simply' a Headmaster of the School? Shouldn't he be the Minister of Magic or an even higher position? Or is it THAT important for him to be in the school because that is the training grounds for the next greatest wizards of the next generation? From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 16:04:49 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?Windows-1252?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 11:04:49 -0500 Subject: Sirius Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24307 I apologize if any of this has been brought up before. I just finished reading PoA for the second time, and noticed a few interesting things that I had not seen before. A) ?I was Junior Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes at the time, and I was one of the first on the scene after Black murdered all of those people. I ? I will never forget it. I still dream about it sometimes. A crater in the middle of the street, so deep it had cracked the sewer below. Bodies everywhere. Muggles screaming. And _Black standing there laughing_, with what was left of Pettigrew in front of him? a heap of bloodstained robes and a few ? a few fragments ? ? PoA, Page 208, American Hardcover edition. Ok? if Sirius was innocent, why the hell was he laughing like a maniac when they dragged him off to Azkaban? I mean, if he?d been in shock or something, that?s understandable, but laughing? Was this ever explained or should I just ignore it? B) But Black?s free hand had found Harry?s throat ? ?No,? he hissed, ?I?ve waited too long ? ? The fingers tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew. - PoA, Page 340, American Hardcover edition. Uhm, common sense tells me that if you want to show someone you?re not responsible for their parents? deaths, you _don_ strangle them. I understand that Sirius is a bit off-balance; years in Azkaban can do that to you, but strangling Harry? That doesn?t seem like a good idea. Those are pretty much the two things I don?t really understand. Any explanation? JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vderark at bccs.org Thu Aug 16 16:26:48 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:26:48 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <010f01c12662$fb5840c0$a473f2d1@lisaannc> Message-ID: <9lgs88+75ro@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24308 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" wrote: > , if Harry received his map back after Crouch/Moody had it Welcome to the list. This is a great example of a factual question that can be answered in the Harry Potter Lexicon, the link to which can be found in various places around here, including the elf-stuff that gets sent to new members. If you go there and look up the Marauder's Map (either by searching for it or by following the "Wizarding World" link) you'll find a page of artifacts and bewitched items, which includes this: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/artifacts.html#Marauder In that description you'll find this: The map was created in the 1970s and at some point confiscated by Filch, who didn't know how to activate it but guessed that it was a magical item of some power. It was snatched from his filing cabinet by Fred and George Weasley who put it to good use for years until they bequeathed it to Harry in December of 1993. Harry used it until it was "borrowed" by Barty Crouch Jr. in the guise of Moody. The current whereabouts of the Map are unknown. As you can see, the Lexicon includes the answers to a LOT of questions. It just makes a fun browse, too, in my humble opinion. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From hyria at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 16:28:28 2001 From: hyria at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Incitatus?=) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:28:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't Sirius escape? In-Reply-To: <20010816.120609.-386425.9.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010816162828.8246.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24309 > Thirdly, if Dumbledore is the greatest wizard of his > generation, why is > he 'simply' a Headmaster of the School? Shouldn't he > be the Minister of > Magic or an even higher position? Or is it THAT > important for him to be > in the school because that is the training grounds > for the next greatest > wizards of the next generation? > It is stated somewhere that Dumbledore was offered the position of Minister of Magic but turned it down (IIRC Hagrid mentions it) unfortunately I can't find the reference at the moment. Dumbledores priorities are clearly not prestige positions or material reward so it is not surprising that he chooses to remain 'simply' a Headmaster. Personally I have great respect for such teachers who consider their role more as a vocation than an occupation. ~Catriona~ ===== Go on ... Kiss a Dementor today! ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From phillip at softhome.net Thu Aug 16 16:28:51 2001 From: phillip at softhome.net (Lord Eadric) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:28:51 -0400 Subject: Wands In-Reply-To: <997830786.4212.55807.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24310 Kavitha Kannan said: Next question...why do all the wizards/withces/warlocks in the Potterverse use wands when, historically, they were not considered neccessary? Are they less dangerous for channeling raw power? Or do they channel more power? Alfredo Ramrez said: In Mage: The Ascension from White Wolf Games, Mages need foci. linman6868 said: In CoS, as they rescue Harry from the Dursleys, the twins explain that house-elves have great magical power, but can't usually use it without their masters' permission. I tend to think (as Alfredo does) that (human) Wizards need something to focus their energies. For a while now, I've been toying with the idea in my head about (extremely) foreign schools of magic that don't use wands. Such as schools (monasteries) in the Asian regions that use a combination of mediation and Mudra (a posturing of the hands and body) to focus magical ability (chi). Dark schools of Voodoo that use different animal sacrifices to achieve spells. Medicine men who use prayers and spiritual enhancers (drugs) to focus abilities. The possibilities are nearly limitless. Has someone had similar thoughts? Is my imagination to vivid? Do I read too much (or not enough) history/fantasy? Am I just crazy? Thanks in advance! Lord Eadric Webmaster, Oriental Adventures Project http://come.to/kara-tur Webmaster, The Wandering Bard's tavern http://come.to/eadric "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." -Euripides "When in doubt, listen to the man with the bloodier weapon." - Unknown "Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup." - Unknown From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Thu Aug 16 16:33:21 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:33:21 -0000 Subject: Mindy: Some possible avenues of thought. In-Reply-To: <008c01c1265f$a05a36e0$4d06bacb@hal9000> Message-ID: <9lgskh+8r9r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24311 Schools... and keeping away from Muggle files. "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: >>> we were talking about only Muggle-born students, where it would be necessary for the child to be in a some school on record (the parents will go to jail if their kid isn't going to school, no?). <<< Not in Muggle Britain where it is not compulsory to send your children to school. The law says that parents are obliged to provide their children with a full-time education either by enrolling them in a recognised school 'or otherwise'. The Home Education Movement in Britain is called 'education otherwise...' Basically you can just do it without asking permission. Assume this as the background to Wizarding Britain. Harder to escape is healthcare and child welfare - everyone in Britain has from birth a National Health number entitling us to register for free medical care. All birtns have to be registered and there is a Health Visitor service which checks up on childrens' progress over their first year. Wizards in some European countries where there are compulsory identity cards and you have officially to register with the local authorityb when you move house will need the memory charm more often. As for countries like Italy and France where everyone is included in an offical Family Dossier which you need for almost every important life stage... Edis > Hello, > > From: "Yis M Koslowitz" > > I don't understand why it's necessary to go out into the Muggle world. > > Well, we were talking about only Muggle-born students, where it would be > necessary for the child to be in a some school on record (the parents will > go to jail if their kid isn't going to school, no?). So, to keep Hogwarts a > secret and the lower officials happy, wouldn't you need some sort of a front > for Hogwarts regarding Muggle-born students? Actually, talking about that, > why haven't social services or some such gone to the Dursleys to ask them > why they are keeping a certain Harry Potter from an education? > > > It's a little bigoted to > > assume that wizards would NEED to live in our world. I'm still a > > I didn't assume that, but if Hogsmeade is the only village with a completely > wizard population, the logical conclusion is that the rest of the wizards > live within Muggle neighborhoods. And we were talking about the > wizards/witches who choose to move into the Muggle world (decided to marry a > Muggle, whatever). > > little Alex > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vderark at bccs.org Thu Aug 16 16:34:11 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:34:11 -0000 Subject: Exchange rates and the Wizarding economy (was:Lockhart - Magical Ability & Wands In-Reply-To: <9lgpj6+nh2c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lgsm3+vlk2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24312 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catriona" wrote: > Robyn wrote: > > I'd love to know the Gringotts exchange rate > > for Muggle and Wizard currency - I wonder whose > > economy is stronger? > > Catlady replied: > >JKR said that a Galleon is worth five pounds (about seven dollars). With contributions from some members of this list, the Lexicon includes a page which gives the Muggle value of various items in the Wizarding World, figured at the given rate of five pounds to the Galleon. You can find this at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/money.html Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 16:33:22 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:33:22 -0400 Subject: Dragons, Snakes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24313 Saitaina wrote: >I mean >honestly, how is a snake supposed to know if one kid was born to a muggle >or >not, it's not like Tom could give him a name and send the snake off on it's >way. Their not wearing name tags nor would they give a giant snake their >name and birth status. The snake could know by magic, the same way the Map knows students' names. I bet it can smell the difference between purebloods and Others. Barb, terrific post on snakes and Dumbledore/Fawkes, Voldemort/Nagini. I have nothing to add, just thanks for neat insights. Marcus wrote: >With that in mind -- then how come the HH didn't speak English? And if >they are so intelligent, then how come they couldn't tell there was a fake >amongst their eggs? One smash half her own eggs defending the fake. >Another got zapped in the eye. That has got to hurt. If they are so >intelligent, then why go through all that agony defending a ringer? There are a lot of human languages. The HH might only know Hungarian. (I do lean toward the thought that HP dragons don't understand human language, though. I just like to poke holes in the holes! ) As for defending the fake, the fake is in the clutch with the other eggs. A dragon doesn't know that the kid only wants the fake; she just knows that someone is coming too close to the nest. Just like Mama Bear doesn't know you're only picking blackberries. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!" said Fred indignantly. "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying git," said George. "Isn't he, Harry?" "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly. --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire ---------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From catsrock at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 16:41:58 2001 From: catsrock at hotmail.com (Kavitha Kannan) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:41:58 -0000 Subject: universities / WizWorld structure In-Reply-To: <20010815.231228.-107941.1.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lgt4n+lfe0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24314 Speaking as a high school student?who won't apologize for her age, since it can't be changed and who instead chooses to write as well as she can? I have never had a Snape for a teacher. And asking around on AIM, noone I know has. I think he's exaggerated well past the point of caricature. Embittered, biased, downright nasty 24-7 he would never survive in a school unless he's shown to be more nasty than he really is, which, given the POV (Harry's) is possible. He's a combination of mad scientist puttering around in black robes and doing strage experiments on his hair, and professor who hates children and is only in the job because he gets to work in the research facilities of the school. As for the teaching methods employed, even the students in the Potterverse mourn the amount of non-practical lessons they suffer through. When Lupin tells them that they will be having a practical lesson, they're all very excited. Of course, this could be due to Lockhart's idiocy, and their other classes seem more interesting. The magnet program I go to is operated in the same way, with a great deal of hands-on experience, and prides itself on claims of being similar to college, so I think it's reasonable to draw parallels between Muggle university and Wizarding grade school. This spirit seems to continue after school, so that their extremely hands-on university is the same as their job. Also, the last five years (3th through 7th) seem to double as college, with students receiving specialized training in fields of their choice. One would imagine that by seventh year, the classes would be like internships. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > Jennifer wrote- > >Hmmm, I sometimes get the impression that Hogworts is taught more like > >the universities in the Muggle world than any middle/high school I've > >seen -- based on teacher experience/behavior (how many public schools > >woule *really* allow a teacher like Snape? I can tell you, I've met > >several college profs like that, but none quite that bad in public > >schools), on class selection (some required, some electives), etc. > >Granted, there aren't 20-somethings running around, and in that respect > >it's quite like any other school for that age...but there's something > >about the style of instruction & school life that feels more like > >college to me. Any thoughts on this? > > Unlike boring Muggle schools, a lot of the Hogwarts learning is hands-on. > There doesn't seem to be a lot of dreary theory completely divorced from > action. Even in McGonagall's class, with assignments like "Describe, with > examples, the way transfiguration must be adapted doing cross- species > switches" (inexact quote) > the work isn't totally theoretical, they actually DO a cross species > switch. > I did an internship in a progressive Greenwich Village private school > that operates on this principle. Kids learn by doing. > Come on, teachers out there. Wouldn't your "ADHD" kids really do better > in a class where you get to actually operate on the environment in some > way and get immediate results? I think it's one of the charms of the > series - kids love it because they'd love to go to such a cool school. > And yes, as a graduate student, I can see that as I get further and > further up in my training, my learning experiences are less theoretical > and more hands-on. > Robyn From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 16:43:11 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:43:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's career choices (was Why Sirius...) In-Reply-To: <20010816.120609.-386425.9.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lgt71+fl7d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24315 Mindy asked: > if Dumbledore is the greatest wizard of his generation, why is > he 'simply' a Headmaster of the School? Shouldn't he be the Minister of > Magic or an even higher position? Or is it THAT important for him to be > in the school because that is the training grounds for the next greatest > wizards of the next generation? He clearly wants to be Headmaster, since he could have been Minister and turned it down (PS/SS 5). The question of *why* he prefers it is interesting, though. I certainly don't think status or influence are an issue; the headmaster of Hogwarts has a very powerful influence on the wizarding world. But it's still a revealing thing about Dumbledore's character. Amy Z ...who'll take a teacher over a politician any day ...though my former state senator was both, & a great guy too ------------------------------------------------------ "Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives!" Harry said furiously. "Look at the Dursleys!" "Excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ------------------------------------------------------ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 16:49:27 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:49:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's career choices (was Why Sirius...) In-Reply-To: <9lgt71+fl7d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lgtin+rvt8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24316 Whoops, Catriona already said this all beautifully. Y'all post so fast I can't keep up! ;-) Amy From monika at darwin.inka.de Thu Aug 16 17:05:46 2001 From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:05:46 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't Sirius escape? In-Reply-To: <20010816.120609.-386425.9.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24317 > -----Original Message----- > From: Mindy, a.k.a. CLH [mailto:mindyatime at juno.com] > > I'm sorry if this has been debated before, but I am wondering why Sirius > couldn't just transform back into a dog and disappear, once he was > captured. Why did he need the elaborate TimeTurner machination? I guess because they had locked him up in Flitwick's office. A very thin dog could pass through the prison bars of his cell in Azkaban, but it can't pass through a solid door. He did not have a wand, so he couldn't unlock it. I am pretty sure they had made sure that he could not escape by normal means, and you can't Apparate within the grounds of Hogwarts. So he needed someone to rescue him, and Dumbledore wasn't keen that someone would guess who helped him to escape. > Thirdly, if Dumbledore is the greatest wizard of his generation, why is > he 'simply' a Headmaster of the School? Shouldn't he be the Minister of > Magic or an even higher position? Or is it THAT important for him to be > in the school because that is the training grounds for the next greatest > wizards of the next generation? Some people just don't like politics. We are told in PS that Dumbledore turned down the job of Minister of Magic, Hagrid tells Harry so, and since there wasn't another candidate, Fudge got the job. I am still wondering why old Barty Crouch didn't become Minister for Magic, though. I can't remember if we were given a valuable reason for this in the books. Monika (the Sirius fan) ------ Book and movie reviews in English and German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Aug 16 17:16:51 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:16:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Character (was Why Sirius...) In-Reply-To: <9lgt71+fl7d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lgv63+p570@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24318 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Mindy asked: > > if Dumbledore is the greatest wizard of his generation, why is > he 'simply' a Headmaster of the School? Or is it THAT important >for him to be in the school because that is the training grounds for the next greatest wizards of the next generation? > > But it's still a revealing thing about Dumbledore's character. > > Amy Z > ...who'll take a teacher over a politician any day > ...though my former state senator was both, & a great guy too > > Alot of references are made to Myers Briggs personality types on this list, and Dumbledore desrves his due. He is very likely to be an ENFP, which under Kiersey's analysis would make him an Idealist/Inspirer. People of this type love to battle evil, are truth seekers, and have as their career goal to be recognized as a sage. They are natural leaders, but do not desire to control people, are project oriented as opposed to doing routinized work, but are excellent problem solvers, full of knowledge, and have remarkable people skills and powers of persuasion. If my guess is correct, Dumbledore is in heaven at Hogwarts, and can think of no better job than headmaster. He has all the power and prestige he needs, in that he has the respect of teachers and students, can influence generations of young wizards, and can indulge himself in the personal studies that made him "the greatest wizard of his age" in the first place. The best part is that according to the Jung/Myers-Briggs/Kiersey line of personality theory, his choice and is values would be completely incomprehensible to someone of a personality type that values glory or authority or money or power for powers sake, not to mention folks who avoid responsibility in favor of constant sensation and stimulation. It takes all kinds to run the world. Different types see different issues as important, but all issues must be dealt with. The question is how we ever agree on anything at all. 4FR (Searching 4 Truth) "the truth is a wonderful and terrible thing, and therefore should be treated with great care." (paraphrasing) Dumbledore, PS/SS. And BTW Amy, I am a former politician. From BrownieH6 at aol.com Thu Aug 16 17:18:57 2001 From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:18:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DUmbledore--Why not Minister? Message-ID: <131.1cb888.28ad5a81@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24319 In a message dated 8/16/01 12:31:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hyria at yahoo.com writes: > It is stated somewhere that Dumbledore was offered the > position of Minister of Magic but turned it down (IIRC > Hagrid mentions it) unfortunately I can't find the > In PS/SS, when Harry is surprised to find that there is a Ministry of Magic, Hagrid tells him that Dumbledore was offered the job, but turned it down because he didn't want to leave Hogwarts. So "Cornelius Fudge pelts him with owls every morning, asking him for advice." ~Marie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kira at kc.rr.com Thu Aug 16 17:31:27 2001 From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:31:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't Sirius escape? References: Message-ID: <01de01c12679$496f1700$a473f2d1@lisaannc> No: HPFGUIDX 24320 I believe that in GoF it was assumed by Sirius that he didn't get it because of his son's capture, trial, and sentence to Azkaban as a Death Eater. It was thought that his son went bad because Barty Crouch Sr. did not spend enough time at home, and he lost favor with the community. LA ----- Original Message ----- From: Monika Huebner To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 12:05 PM Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't Sirius escape? Some people just don't like politics. We are told in PS that Dumbledore turned down the job of Minister of Magic, Hagrid tells Harry so, and since there wasn't another candidate, Fudge got the job. I am still wondering why old Barty Crouch didn't become Minister for Magic, though. I can't remember if we were given a valuable reason for this in the books. Monika (the Sirius fan) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Aug 16 17:37:35 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:37:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Gleam & Gandalf In-Reply-To: <9lgv63+p570@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lh0cv+po0j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24321 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > > > Alot of references are made to Myers Briggs personality types on > this list, and Dumbledore desrves his due. He is very likely to be > an ENFP, which under Kiersey's analysis would make him an > Idealist/Inspirer. People of this type love to battle evil, are > truth seekers, and have as their career goal to be recognized as a > sage. They are natural leaders, but do not desire to control people, > are project oriented as opposed to doing routinized work, but are > excellent problem solvers, full of knowledge, and have remarkable > people skills and powers of persuasion. > > One other note. Dumbledore is similar to Tolkien's wizard, Gandalf The Grey, in several regards. Both are powerfully magical, storehouses of knowledge, the greatest wizards of their respective generations. The big differene is that Dumbledore is a much nicer person, who feels for Harry and others, and calculates those feelings into his plans and actions. Gandalf was happy wandering around Middle-Earth hatching and nurturing his many schemes. In the Hobbit, he left Thorin Oakenshield and company to face the dragon Smaug by themselves, and left Thorin's father to die in the Necromancer's dungeons. In the trilogy, he was perfectly willing to sacrifice Frodo and Sam if it meant destroying his nemesis. He was a cold calulating thinker type, who happened to believe in fighting for the good. Dumbledore, on the other hand, was elated by the news that Voldy had used Harry's blood in his rebirthing potion (thus the gleam), but worn out by the fact that IMO it means that Harry is now even more vulnerable to Voldemort's attacks. In other words, Dumbledore gives a damn about the person, Gandalf (and Barty Crouch sr.) cares about the outcome. Does the end justtify the menas? Or is there a right way and a wrong way? 4FR "the truth is a wonderful and terrible thing, and therefore should be treated with great care." (paraphrasing) Dumbledore, PS/SS. From pbnesbit at msn.com Thu Aug 16 18:49:41 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:49:41 -0000 Subject: Why Crouch didn't get the MoM job (Was: Why didn't Sirius escape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lh4k5+breg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24322 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Some people just don't like politics. We are told in PS that Dumbledore > turned down the job of Minister of Magic, Hagrid tells Harry so, and > since there wasn't another candidate, Fudge got the job. I am still > wondering why old Barty Crouch didn't become Minister for Magic, > though. I can't remember if we were given a valuable reason for this > in the books. > > Monika > (the Sirius fan) > > ------ > Book and movie reviews in English and German: > http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html It's in GoF, ch. 27, p. 457 (UK ed.): Sirius is telling the Trio how things were when Voldy was gaining power. 'When Voldemort disappeared, it looked like only a matter of time until Crouch got the top job. But then something rather unfortunate happened...' Sirius smiled grimly. 'Crouch's own son was caught with a group of Death Eaters who'd managed to talk their way out of Azkaban. Apparently they were trying to find Voldemort and return him to power.' There's some more talk, and then this: 'So old Crouch lost it all just when he thought he had it made,' he continued, wiping his mouth with the back of his hand. 'One moment, a hero, poised to become Minister for Magic...next, his son dead, his wife dead, the family name dishonoured, and so I've heard since I escaped, a big drop in popularity.' Hope this explains things! Peace & Plenty, Parker From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 16 19:18:39 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:18:39 -0000 Subject: Typos In-Reply-To: <9ld76a+mkg8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lh6af+vgpd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24323 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dave Hardenbrook" < > DaveH47 at m...> wrote: > > > On 14 Aug 2001, at 1:57, Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Not as crucial, but in the same league is this error near the > top > > of > > > page 325: > > > > > > "[Madame Maxime] wasn't exactly hard to miss." > > > > > > Umm... Shouldn't that be that she *was* hard to miss?? > > > > No! Madame Maxine is [presumably] at least part Giant. She's > NOT > > hard to miss! She's quite big! > > > If she's NOT HARD to miss, then that means it's easy to miss > her . (Really love contemplating double negatives at 3 a.m. ....) > (Alert, alert, brain going into a tailspin ....) Right. "wasn't exactly" means it wasn't really hard to miss her. You couldn't miss her if you tried, even. In this case, because of the sarcastic tone, the emphasis was that she was NOT hard to miss because she was huge. I think it was meant as a smirky comment. But yes, it is confusing. Indigo From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Thu Aug 16 19:26:26 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:26:26 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew: debt and Scabbers - Sirius in the Shrieking Shack In-Reply-To: <9lfkjt+j9lj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lh6p2+4bnt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24324 Katzefan wrote: 'After Harry keeps Sirius and Lupin from killing Wormtail, Dumbledore tells Harry that when one wizard saves another, it creates a bond, and that he has handed Voldemort back a servant who is indebted to Voldemort's worst enemy. There was certainly no sign in GoF that Wormtail remembered that debt. Any speculation on whether he ever will?' Amy Z already answered this one: LOL at "The rat doth protest too much, methinks!" But I have a different interpretation of this debt thing between Pettigrew and Harry. Is it something that Pettigrew necessarily *knows* and is aware that he is indebted to Harry, or could it be something more instinctual? I tend to lean towards the theory that Pettigrew himself doesn't know that he has a debt to Harry, but in some magical instinctive way, he will follow it up if Harry is ever in danger. So when he tries to discourage Voldemort from using Harry, he is perhaps not aware of the real (debt) reason he's doing it, but perhaps thinks it might be more prudent to choose someone who's not so well-protected. What do you guys think - is it something he is aware of, or not? Can you imagine what Voldemort will do to him if/when he finds out that Pettigrew is in Harry's debt? I shudder to think of it. Saitaina asked: 'Now here's my question...why did Peter as Scabbers, bite Goyle?' I have wondered about this too - my very flimsy take on it is that Peter had just realized that his owner had made friends with one Harry Potter. Perhaps rat Peter felt a teeny tiny twinge of guilt knowing what had happened to the boy? And when Malfoy informed Harry that he'll go the way of his parents if he wasn't politer (or some such rude comment) perhaps Scabbers did have his moment of glory (as Fred so aptly titled it in PoA) and was biting him in defence of Harry and his parents? I know, it's a very weak theory, but plausible, I guess. JB asked: 'Ok if Sirius was innocent, why the hell was he laughing like a maniac when they dragged him off to Azkaban? I mean, if he'd been in shock or something, that's understandable, but laughing? Was this ever explained or should I just ignore it?' I think he was in shock. And he'd just realized how perfectly he'd been framed by Peter of all people; little bumbling Peter who had seemed so ineffectual, was responsible for the slaughter of two of his friends and framed him so efficiently. I think I would have laughed too just at the sheer ridiculousness of it. JB also asked: 'Uhm, common sense tells me that if you want to show someone you're not responsible for their parents' deaths, you _don_ strangle them. I understand that Sirius is a bit off-balance; years in Azkaban can do that to you, but strangling Harry? That doesn't seem like a good idea.' Yes but don't forget, Harry had just attacked Sirius ferociously: "Perhaps it was the shock of Harry doing something so stupid, but Black didn't raise the wands in time - one of Harry's hands fastened over his wasted wrist, forcing the wand tips away; the knuckles of Harry's other hand collided with the side of Black's head and they fell, backward, into the wall - ... there was a blinding flash as the wands in Black's hand sent a jet of sparks into the air that missed Harry's face by inches; Harry felt the shrunken arm under his fingers twisting madly, but he clung on, his other hand punching every part of Black it could find. But Black's free hand had found Harry's throat-" Therefore it was the only way he could get Harry off him. And I would argue that Sirius' primary intention is not to show Harry that he's not responsible for his parents' death, but to kill Peter first. It's Lupin who convinces him to wait and let Harry hear their explanation before doing anything to Peter. --Hella From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 20:03:20 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:03:20 -0000 Subject: Be nice to Gandalf (Was: Dumbledore, Gleam & Gandalf) In-Reply-To: <9lh0cv+po0j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lh8u8+h815@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24325 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > One other note. Dumbledore is similar to Tolkien's wizard, Gandalf > The Grey, in several regards. Both are powerfully magical, > storehouses of knowledge, the greatest wizards of their respective > generations. The big differene is that Dumbledore is a much nicer > person, who feels for Harry and others, and calculates those feelings > into his plans and actions. > > Gandalf was happy wandering around Middle-Earth hatching and > nurturing his many schemes. In the Hobbit, he left Thorin > Oakenshield and company to face the dragon Smaug by themselves, and > left Thorin's father to die in the Necromancer's dungeons. In the > trilogy, he was perfectly willing to sacrifice Frodo and Sam if it > meant destroying his nemesis. He was a cold calulating thinker type, > who happened to believe in fighting for the good. Hey! Be nice. You could just as easily say that instead of staying at home, snuggled safe in his magically protected castle, Gandalf is out in the field fighting evil face to face, as opposed to sending out underaged children to do his dirty work. It is possible to twist anything. I rather suspect that Gandalf and Dumbledore would be fast friends. Marcus From joym999 at aol.com Thu Aug 16 21:01:31 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:01:31 -0000 Subject: Who trusted Sirius? (was: Sirius V's #2?) In-Reply-To: <9l1aju+o9be@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lhcbb+ncqn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24326 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., monzaba at p... wrote: > Actually, I think it's quite shocking that James and Lily seem to be > the *only* people who trusted Sirius. Everybody else, even those who > knew him really well: Remus, Hagrid, McGonagall - were certain he > betrayed his best friends and slaughtered the muggles. > > Still worse, it seems that Dumbledore shared their belief. I think he > didn't quite trust any of James's friends, because he volunteered to > be the Potters' Secret Keeper. He must have known that Sirius was > thrown to Azkaban without trial and he didn't do anything about it. It is possible that Dumbledore did not believe that Sirius was guilty, or at least had some doubts, and the MoM ignored his protests. Dumbledore is clearly not universally popular; Fudge has shown his unwillingness to believe Dumbledore, and the Board of Governors of Hogwarts managed to fire him in CoS. There are clearly a lot of behind-the-scenes political struggles going on in the MoM, so Dumbledore may have only a very limited ability to affect the day to day workings of the MoM. It is also possible that everyone, including Dumbledore, assumed that Sirius was yet another victim of the Imperius Curse, and did not voluntarily go over to Voldys side, but was coerced because of the curse. Remember, we dont really know all that much about Voldys Reign of Terror, but it sounds as if one of the horrors of it was that he was so powerful that he could put curses on seemingly powerful wizards. --Joywitch, just speculating From lamppost42 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 21:08:27 2001 From: lamppost42 at hotmail.com (lamppost42 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:08:27 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <9lgp9h+3bem@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lhcob+t8bu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24327 > AFAIK, JKR hasn't said anything about her plans for the Map in Book > Five. My guess is that the Map will be heading back to Filch's drawer > for good, given its penchant for creating unresolved narrative > discord - (SNIP!) I must respectfully disagree, at least with your statement that the map will return to Filch's drawer. How "Raiders of the Lost Ark"! :) I suspect the map is headed for a much more glorious future than helping students sneak out and insulting teachers. Dumbledore seemed geniunely surprised when Crouch Jr. described Harry's map, suggesting that he was unaware of its existence (or specific powers). Did Lupin "forget" to mention it to Dumbledore in PoA? Possibly. I suspect Filch's predecessor was the one who confiscated the map in the first place. Filch bears all the earmarks of a Dumbledore hiree (unfortunate circumstances e.g. being a squib, werewolf, or half- giant). The "highly dangerous" drawer was probably inherited by Filch when the Dippet administration came to an end (or maybe they all snuffed it in the last Voldemort Reign of Terror). I wonder what other goodies are in that drawer.. not just dating from the Marauders' time, but maybe even as far back as Tom Riddle's school days... I'm expecting great things from the Marauders' Map. Perhaps terrible, but great... Yours in Wishful Thinking, Mundungus42 From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 16 21:21:08 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:21:08 -0000 Subject: At the Burrow (filk) Message-ID: <9lhdg4+sevf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24328 In the Burrow (To the tune of In the Ghetto) Dedicated to "Amber?" (the Amber who signs on with a question mark) THE SCENE: The Burrow. HARRY provides an encomium to his favorite family while FRED and GEORGE provide backup HARRY As the ash clears A boom resounds through a cloud of smoke As George and Fred perfect another joke At the Burrow FRED and GEORGE At the Burrow HARRY And their mama jeers "If I hear from you two just one more sound, You'll be going six feet underground" Her brow's furrowed FRED and GEORGE Like Ed Murrow HARRY I'm helping Arthur understand Why cell phones are in demand As he marvels how Muggles get by through unmagical ways Though Ron kept his fingers crossed The Cannons once again lost But in his room his Chudley banners still brightly blaze And the Goblin cries Molly shoves another serving on my plate As Percy shows off that he can Apparate At the Burrow FRED and GEORGE At the Burrow HARRY And poor Pig can't fly Ron dreams how he'll someday be Prefect While Percy babbles on about cauldron specs He is thorough FRED and GEORGE Far too thorough HARRY Then one night in consternation Ginny's afraid to speak She's too anxious to say hello When in the butter she stuck her elbow As ol' Lockhart grins And as the yard refills with gnomes I sense I've finally found my home At the Burrow FRED and GEORGE At the Burrow HARRY As Ms. Warbeck sings `Cause I never knew a family Could live together in such harmony `Till the Burrow FRED and GEORGE In our Burrow! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm Hear another parody of this song at the Capitol Steps website: http://www.capsteps.com From lamppost42 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 16 21:30:48 2001 From: lamppost42 at hotmail.com (lamppost42 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:30:48 -0000 Subject: Various, inc. other uses for the Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <009401c12646$c3047520$6f856fcb@price> Message-ID: <9lhe29+ui2f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24329 Tabouli wrote: > And don't most snakes hibernate in winter? Surely around >Christmastime in Scotland any self-respecting snake would be curled up >by the hearth in the Chamber of Secrets... Most do, yes, but a cave wouldn't be such a horrible place to spend the winter. Caves keep a fairly consistent temperature year-round, usually around 54 degrees Farenheit (12 degrees C). Many cold-blooded animals live in caves for generations with no problems (unless you cosider losing ones pigmentation and eyes a problem.. the cave critters certainly don't!). Additionally, a basilisk is a very powerful magical creature, and perhaps its lesser known powers include the ability to be warm at all times. We know that one of its abilities must be going hundreds of years without ample food... (the thing is HUGE!) > What a creepy place that would be: all those people who lost their >minds through the Cruciatus curse. I imagine there are other less-horrible things to see, though it IS a hospital, mind you... people being cured of curses, hexes and jinxes, exposure to nasty potions/substances, magical animal attacks, botched transfigurations, that kind of thing. There are probably plenty of broken bones, broomstick accidents, and other things that can be more effectively healed with magic. I think the St. Mungo's visit is kind of like the "BLOOD ON THE HIGHWAY" film they show to drivers' ed. students. It encourages students about to go out into the world not to be reckless with magic. > OTOH, the Malfoys, through scrupulous years of one child families, >still have a sweeping family estate and fortune. Three words: Ill. Gotten. Gains. :D Thought-provoking questions/statements! More nonsense from me forthcoming... Converting all my sounds of woe to "hey nonny nonny," Mundungus42 From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 16 21:39:06 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:39:06 -0000 Subject: Who trusted Sirius? (was: Sirius V's #2?) In-Reply-To: <9lhcbb+ncqn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lhehq+e5g3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24330 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., monzaba at p... wrote: > > Actually, I think it's quite shocking that James and Lily seem to > be > > the *only* people who trusted Sirius. Everybody else, even those > who > > knew him really well: Remus, Hagrid, McGonagall - were certain he > > betrayed his best friends and slaughtered the muggles. > > > > Still worse, it seems that Dumbledore shared their belief > > It is possible that Dumbledore did not believe that Sirius was > guilty, or at least had some doubts, and the MoM ignored his > protests. Dumbledore is clearly not universally popular; Fudge has > shown his unwillingness to believe Dumbledore, and the Board of > Governors of Hogwarts managed to fire him in CoS. There are clearly > a lot of behind-the-scenes political struggles going on in the MoM, > so Dumbledore may have only a very limited ability to affect the day > to day workings of the MoM. > > It is also possible that everyone, including Dumbledore, assumed that > Sirius was yet another victim of the Imperius Curse, and did not > voluntarily go over to Voldys side, but was coerced because of the > curse. Remember, we dont really know all that much about Voldys > Reign of Terror, but it sounds as if one of the horrors of it was > that he was so powerful that he could put curses on seemingly > powerful wizards. > > --Joywitch, just speculating I think Dumbledore and everyone else probably did believe that Sirius did it. Look at the facts: Someone close to the Potters was a traitor. James insisted on having Sirius as his Secret Keeper against Dumbledore's better judgment. The Potters died. Poor, stupid Peter Pettigrew, overcome with grief, accused Sirius of betraying the Potters and was killed for his trouble (or so it seemed). All very nice and neat. I'd believe it, too. It's all circumstantial, of course, but Sirius never had the chance to tell his side of the story (not that anyone would have believed him if he did). Yes, it's horrible that no one believed him to be innocent, but under such circumstances you suspect everyone. Sirius himself suspected Lupin, which is why he didn't tell him that Peter was to be the Potters' Secret Keeper instead of himself. Lupin obviously didn't hold it against Sirius, no more than Sirius held it against Lupin that *he* had doubted. Bente From simon at hp.inbox.as Thu Aug 16 21:45:07 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:45:07 +0100 Subject: school selection In-Reply-To: <997957880.772.57299.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24331 Little Alex: <<>> To my knowledge the following is correct, but I did not attend the school nor have I checked the following. To get into Eton, and in fact most public schools in the UK, you need to be selected. A process of entrance tests does this and those performing well enough get in. I am unsure if they take the top x number of students or if it is that they take all those who get over y % on the tests. In the case of Eton you can be entered for the schools selection from birth or just before you would start (start years range from 11-14 I believe). Those who have been down for Eton from birth (i.e. royalty and others with family who have been to the school) have fewer tests to take. Steve Vander Ark wrote: <<>> Crabbe and Goyle could both be very strong magically. Just because someone has a large potential does not mean they know how to use it or that even they are intelligent enough to be able to be trained to use this power. Simon -- "Some people seem to need reminding that wearing a swimsuit in the vicinity of a man in shorts does not constitute a marriage ceremony, not even in Mauritius" - J. Rowling --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 16 21:53:25 2001 From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:53:25 -0000 Subject: Various, inc. other uses for the Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <009401c12646$c3047520$6f856fcb@price> Message-ID: <9lhfcl+s6f1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24332 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: attend the deathday party, after all. > > > I'm still convinced that the Weasleys *are* nobility, albeit impoverished and struggling nobility. They're an old wizarding family, after all. I'm open to correction from British listmembers and other people who know more about this than me, but I've always thought that in Britain your "class" is based much more on your bloodline and land ownership than on how much actual money you have. In fact, those of noble blood would be greatly insulted to be lumped with those vulgar nouveaux riches (sp? I never know with these French borrowings) peasants who've earned money through something as common as work. My idea was that the Weasleys, after generations of dividing up the family estate among dozens of red-haired children and selling off property to support them, ended up reduced to the plot of land where The Burrow stands and having to work for a living. OTOH, the Malfoys, through scrupulous years of one child families, still have a sweeping family estate and fortune. > I'm a British listmember and I wanted to say you are completely right about this. I was reading a newspaper article yesterday about some member of the nobility who lives in a council house. I assumed the same as you did that the Weasley's are, if not actually nobility, then the next best thing to it. As for the Malfoy's, if you are rich enough it is perfectly possible to buy the ancestral home of some noble in financial difficulties. I think someone has already said, "ill gotten gains." Just because they have the estate and money doesn't mean they have the bloodline to match. > The other thing I've been musing on in none other than that ol' Sorting Hat. "There's nothing hidden in your head the Sorting Hat can't see", eh? Does this mean that you could get a complete rundown on a person's thoughts and intentions simply by slapping the Hat on them? Is the Hat bound to a code of secrecy, or is it prepared to talk about what it sees in people's heads to other people, e.g. Dumbledore? Hey, why bother with Veritaserum when he could just try the hat on every new DADA teacher that walks through the door? > > "You may look just like Moody, > But the Sorting Hat's no slouch: > I see from what's inside your head > That you are Barty Crouch! > > You're planning to kill Harry > Raise Lord Voldemort, and more, > Bad luck, my friend, I've caught you out > I'm telling Dumbledore!" > > And so on. Hey, sure beats the Myer-Briggs for sorting out job candidates... > Just my humble opinion, but I think the hat doesn't see clear thoughts unless directed at it (ie/ Harry's dialogue). And perhaps it can only tell people about themselves - in the words of Aslan, 'I cannot tell anyone somebody else's story...' (paraphased, C.S.Lewis - The Horse and His Boy). Aleks From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Aug 16 22:08:18 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:08:18 -0000 Subject: Be nice to Gandalf (Was: Dumbledore, Gleam & Gandalf) In-Reply-To: <9lh8u8+h815@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lhg8i+qugr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24333 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: >I rather suspect that Gandalf and Dumbledore would be fast friends. I think you are right, to the extent that they have more in common than they do in difference. Moreover, thinkers and feelers need each other, precisely because they each have different qualities that the other lacks. The same is true for the open-ended, unscheduled P types, who need a solid responsible Judging type to help make sure their big picture views become concrete reality, and on schedule. Our ability to meld our differences to create a more complete whole is what makes things happen. The better part of your question remains, what is acceptable in fighting evil? To risk the lives of innocents, to sacrifice oneself, or to let evil win becase you can't decide? If innocent lives are lost, but the evil destroyed, does the end justify the means? In these regards, as you rightly point out, both Dumbledore and Gandalf are more than happy to use lesser talents than themselves as hapless pawns in the game of world domination, while they behave like kings, too valuable to lose. Ain't politics grand? 4FR From Allyse at my-deja.com Thu Aug 16 22:10:00 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:10:00 -0000 Subject: Be nice to Gandalf (Was: Dumbledore, Gleam & Gandalf) In-Reply-To: <9lh8u8+h815@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lhgbo+b5i9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24334 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > > One other note. Dumbledore is similar to Tolkien's wizard, > Gandalf > > The Grey, in several regards. The big differene is that Dumbledore is a much nicer > > person, who feels for Harry and others, and calculates those > feelings > > into his plans and actions. > > He was a cold calulating thinker > type, > > who happened to believe in fighting for the good. And Marcus replied: > > Hey! Be nice. You could just as easily say that instead of staying > at home, snuggled safe in his magically protected castle, Gandalf is > out in the field fighting evil face to face, as opposed to sending out > underaged children to do his dirty work. > > It is possible to twist anything. I rather suspect that Gandalf and > Dumbledore would be fast friends. Not only that, but Gandalf isn't half as cold as you've suggested. Gandalf has the cares of the entire West on his shoulders, but he cares about the hobbits. He wastes valuable time, when the White Council is considering driving out the Necromancer (aka Sauron), to aid the dwarves and Bilbo on their quest; he checks up on Bilbo and Frodo whenever he can, especially once he realizes the danger inherent in the Ring. Like Dumbledore, he strongly believes that every person has their part to play, and it's the actions that show a person's true mettle (Frodo: "I will take the Ring, though I do not know the way." Boromir's downfall and ultimate redemption. Bilbo's ability to resist the Ring so long, because he didn't kill Gollum. Gandalf's reaction to these events sing out loud and clear.) Think of his anguish on Pippin's behalf when the hobbit is zapped by Sauron in the palantir, and the way he is crushed at the Black Gate when it appears that Frodo is in Barad-dur. No, Gandalf is not as cold as you make out, and I do agree with Marcus that he and Dumbledore would probably have a great time shooting the breeze! Can't you just picture Albus politely refusing an offer of pipeweed, and offering Gandalf some Every-Flavored Beans? :) Allyse From mindyatime at juno.com Thu Aug 16 22:41:04 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:41:04 -0400 Subject: Mindy the Muggle and Mudblood Lover Message-ID: <20010816.184115.-372807.2.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24335 My fixation on the Muggle/Wizarding relations is obsessing me so that I decided to...write a fanfic, which I titled A MUGGLE AMONGST US, in which a Muggle manages to worm his way into Hogwarts and the repercussions that follow. I am having so much fun writing it, and I am surprised at the results, as the plot keeps on taking such a variety of twists. So I sort of did take up Marcus's challenge. We'll wait for the results. I have to decide where to publish it. Oh, by the way, if anyone who has aol or aim wants to look me up online, my screen name is mindyatime (duh???) Oy, I hope I didn't go too off-topic by plugging my own future fanfic and revealing my screen name. MINDY, the Masterful Muggle From elspeth_orange at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 22:48:04 2001 From: elspeth_orange at yahoo.com (elspeth_orange at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:48:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lhij4+6om1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24336 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alfredo Ram?rez wrote: > ? PoA, Page 208, American Hardcover edition. > > Ok if Sirius was innocent, why the hell was he laughing like a > maniac when they dragged him off to Azkaban? I mean, if he'd > been in shock or something, that's understandable, but laughing? > Was this ever explained or should I just ignore it? oh, just think of the *irony*, from Black's perspective. minutes before, he's discovered that his so-called friend had been in league with Voldie all along, and moreover, had just committed the ultimate act of betrayal by giving up James and Lily. so, he catches up with this wretched scum, and arrives on the horrific scene that Pettrigrew, of all people, has managed to cook up -- Wormtail's just killed his best friends along with a dozen innocent Muggles, made a scene accusing *Sirius* of all this insanity, and to top it *all* off, he transforms into a rat (ha) at the critical moment, leaving Sirius standing there like an idiot, the realization just dawning that his dim-witted expatriot has just oh-so-cleverly managed to frame *him* of the most horrific crime imaginable. *come*, now -- you're telling me you don't see the ridiculously-ironic humor in this situation?! ;> -elspeth. From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 00:05:21 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:05:21 -0000 Subject: Be nice to Gandalf (Was: Dumbledore, Gleam & Gandalf) In-Reply-To: <9lhgbo+b5i9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lhn41+rvgs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24337 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Allyse at m... wrote: > Can't you just picture Albus politely refusing > an offer of pipeweed, and offering Gandalf some Every-Flavored > Beans? :) > > Allyse I love it! Each one talking about inconsequencial things, one talking about the problems with students, the other complaining about hobbits; but the deep love each one feels toward their charges showing through all their supposed complaints. Gandalf would likely turn down the Bernie Bott's, but I dare say he would flip over the lemon sherberts! I wonder if either would mention Voldemort or Sauron. I think not. Unless the battle was waging, that is. I think they would just enjoy each other's company and enjoy the mutual respect they would have for each other. Neither one has anything to prove. Fanfic, anyone? Marcus From jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 00:31:29 2001 From: jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com (jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:31:29 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius escape? Can Dementors talk? Message-ID: <9lhol1+rjj9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24338 Sirius did not escape because the dementors affected him even when he was in his animargas form. "Harry and Hermione heard a distant yelping, Sirius is in trouble" The dementors could effect Sirius in either form, although it was harder when he was in animal form because his emotions were less complex. Which brings us to my other questions how do the dementors communicate? In POA early chapters (sorry do not have book with me, I'm at work) Mr. Weasley tells Mrs. Weasley that Fudge went to Azkaban, and Black was sane he even asked Fudge for his newspaper. He also says that the guards told Fudge that Black had been talking in his sleep always the same words. "He's at Hogwarts." Do the dementors speak? Or perhaps if they are human spirits of some sort can they convey their thoughts in writing? Or could their be other guards that are more humanlike and that still talk? Maybe even human guards, IMO not likely they would be drained of all of their happy thoughts. Jesse From hyria at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 00:47:49 2001 From: hyria at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Incitatus?=) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 01:47:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Can Dementors talk? In-Reply-To: <9lhol1+rjj9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010817004749.91662.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24339 --- jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com wrote: > Which > brings us to my other > questions how do the dementors communicate? Do the dementors speak? Or perhaps > if they are human > spirits of some sort can they convey their thoughts > in writing? I considered this question recently whilst plotting out a fanfic (I didn't write it, the scenario was too weird even for me) examining the origin and being of Dementors. I came to the conclusion that the Dementors are entities created by extremes of human tragedy, events of a magnitude great enough to distill the suffering of thousands into a new physical form at the time where the soul leaves the body. The Dementors are formed of the negative aspects of experience of these unfortunates and as such have a vacuum of good feelings accounting for their ability to leach positive thoughts when near humans. I simply had difficulty in seeing how else a dementor might be born. I conceptualised their method of communication (and indeed feeding) as a form of group conciousness/experience with the ability for telepathic communication (of sorts) with humans toward whom they gravitate because of an innate need to try and fill the aforementioned vacuum; after all we do know that they are blind and that they sense the feelings of living beings it is likely that they do not eat in a 'normal' way either. Those were just a few of my speculations on Dementors. ~Catriona~ ===== Go on ... Kiss a Dementor today! ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From frantyck at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 00:57:58 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:57:58 -0000 Subject: Muggle and magic worlds Message-ID: <9lhq6m+hsgp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24340 About how the magic and Muggle peoples can live together and not both be aware of each other: Think of the size of the wizarding population. It can't be large, if there are only about a thousand wizarding children between the ages of 11 and 18. I don't know precisely how demographers would figure this out -- fertility rates, average family sizes, age at motherhood, whatever other social and economic imperatives rule such issues -- but certainly the total wizarding population can't be more than about 10,000 in Great Britain. That's infinitesimal next to the total population of about 60 million. There must be more homeless people in London alone. Certainly there are more eccentrics! About concentrations of the wizarding population: Hogsmeade may be the only wizarding village in England, but it is a *village*, not a bustling town of several thousand. If it held most of the wizards of England, why would the real centre of the English wizarding world be at Diagon Alley? And, Diagon Alley is just one part of a hidden wizarding district in the middle of London (Knockturn Alley, etc.). London, to England, is the City, it's way off the top of the urban hierarchical scale; why should the wizarding world not follow this pattern? After all, wizards and witches are wizards and witches, but they're fundamentally and very obviously English, too (language, what they eat, Fudge's bowler hat, etc.). Which means that many wizarding families MUST live dispersed among Muggles (not least the non-purebloods). The Weasleys do -- Ottery St Catchpole isn't a wizarding village, they have Muggle neighbours, and there is only one other wizarding family in the area (the Diggorys, from GoF, unless most did not attend the Quidditch World Cup). Malfoy Manor, I fancy, is a normally gloomy house with what its Muggle neighbours probably think is a snooty and very private family. There are several examples of wizarding families living in the Muggle world, and very few of them living in Hogsmeade or even somewhere near Diagon Alley. Most wizards and witches seem to come *to* Diagon Alley via the Leaking Cauldron, *from* the Muggle world. So, it's not clear to me -- and here I believe Mindy has a point -- why wizards and witches know so little about the Muggle world. From the point of view of the story, it's all as it should be. It's a story, after all -- I don't think we should expect the whole edifice to hang together absolutely and perfectly. For instance, it's odd that Arthur Weasley, with his consuming curiosity, has never bothered to ask anyone else about "escapators," or to wander around in the Muggle world on his own. He doesn't work in Hogsmeade, he works in London, where there are more Muggles than anywhere else in the British isles. On the other hand, it's possible that while wizards may live among Muggles, they have little experience of the Muggle world. After all, living in apartment buildings, we are literally sandwiched between other families, yet we may never get to know them. Worlds can come very close together without ever mixing. Both Muggles and wizards are self-absorbed -- it's only human. About the wizard economy: it must be tied closely to the Muggle economy. I would like to believe that many witches and wizards work at Muggle jobs. Hermione, for example, might well teach at Oxford *and* write reviews for the Daily Prophet. This would resolve the social security number problem. If the British Prime Minister agreed to help with the hunt for Sirius what, as a politician and administrator, did he demand in return? Help with espionage? Charms to convince voters? That toothy grin of his? Lastly (almost), household expenses for wizarding families cannot be in the same league as us Muggles. After all, they don't pay utility bills (to our knowledge), they don't have to buy PlayStation and pay college tuition, and so on. No credit cards, because you don't have to pay for a million household appliances. Come to think of it, if wizards don't need all that Muggle hardware and economic inventiveness, that is one explanation for why they still use coins rather than magic debit cards! After all, if capitalism never fully arrived in the magic world, they're still working in the late medieval or early modern economic system! Which makes some sense, I think. I think there must be a healthy service economy, though; after all, what mother is going to bother to make a complex potion to cure chicken pox when she can buy it in some medimagic store? Anyway, the possibilities are endless. About wizard money: what prevents someone with a wand from magically duplicating Galleons? There must be some pretty hefty spells on the cash currency. Oof. Does this qualify as a rant? Rrishi From tkoz1 at juno.com Fri Aug 17 01:57:07 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:57:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Be nice to Gandalf (Was: Dumbledore, Gleam & Gandalf) Message-ID: <20010816.222417.-194301.2.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24341 OK - feel free to yell at me for bringing in other series- someone else started it. IMHO, Albus seems the most similar to David Edding's Belgarath the Sorcerer - he has a more direct and hands on approach to dealing with evil, is training a younger one (who's an orphan), has a great sense of humor and looks traditionally wizardly. Basically, I love the way JKR combines two prototypes - the brilliant, eccentric absentminded professor and the Merlin figure into one. Any opinions? Robyn On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:05:21 -0000 prefectmarcus at yahoo.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Allyse at m... wrote: > > Can't you just picture Albus politely refusing > > an offer of pipeweed, and offering Gandalf some Every-Flavored > > Beans? :) > > > > Allyse > > I love it! Each one talking about inconsequencial things, one > talking > about the problems with students, the other complaining about > hobbits; > but the deep love each one feels toward their charges showing > through > all their supposed complaints. > > Gandalf would likely turn down the Bernie Bott's, but I dare say he > would flip over the lemon sherberts! > > I wonder if either would mention Voldemort or Sauron. I think not. > > Unless the battle was waging, that is. I think they would just > enjoy > each other's company and enjoy the mutual respect they would have > for > each other. Neither one has anything to prove. > > Fanfic, anyone? > > Marcus > > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From tkoz1 at juno.com Fri Aug 17 02:08:52 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:08:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Exchange rates and the Wizarding economy (was:Lockhart - Magical Ability & Wands Message-ID: <20010816.222417.-194301.4.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24342 Thanks. Math is not my thing. I also don't have Internet access, so it's hard for me to be up on all the HP links. What's your MSc. about (if it's not top secret) that you need so much detail? Robyn, who is utterly not a detail person. On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:41:26 -0000 "Catriona" writes: > Robyn wrote: > > I'd love to know the Gringotts exchange rate > > for Muggle and Wizard currency - I wonder whose > > economy is stronger? > > Catlady replied: > >JKR said that a Galleon is worth five pounds (about seven dollars). > I > >don't believe it: a look at the prices that Harry pays for things > >suggests that the Galleon is worth something from $25 to $40 in > >modern money. > > I've just done a few calculations based on the price on the back of > the UK QTTA where we are given that the price 2.50 equates to 14 > Sickles 3 Knuts. > > We know (PS p58) that 1 Galleon = 17 Sickles and that 1 Sickle = 29 > Knuts. > > Because 14S 3K = 409 Knuts = 250p > > We can calculate that: > > 1p = 1.64 Knuts > 1 = 162 Knuts = 5.58 Sickles = 0.32 Galleons > > We can now estimate the value of Wizarding currency in terms of > Sterling (based on the exhange rate at the time of QTTA's > publication): > > 1 Galleon = 3.04 > 1 Sickle = 17.85p > 1 Knut = 0.62p > > (Apologies for any rounding error) > > If I have time later I might even calculate an optimal exchange rate > > for Gringotts. > > I am working on a detailed analysis of the wizarding economy to > illustrate just how it can function effiiciently [Don't worry, I'm > not really insane, this is useful revision for my MSc] > > Catriona > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From tkoz1 at juno.com Fri Aug 17 02:12:40 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:12:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map Message-ID: <20010816.222418.-194301.5.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24343 I agree - it's one of JKR's worse plot devices because so much could go wrong if it is consulted at the wrong time. If I'm not mistaken - wasn't Moody shown as prowling the corridors on the MM at one point? How is that possible? He's locked in a trunk. Also, if it shows every occupant of the Hogwarts castle, how does it deal with floors that are on top of each other, or huge crowds of students? It's not depicted as very big. Robyn, who loves MWPP but hates their map. On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:36:17 -0000 "Caius Marcius" > AFAIK, JKR hasn't said anything about her plans for the Map in Book > Five. My guess is that the Map will be heading back to Filch's > drawer > for good, given its penchant for creating unresolved narrative > discord - e.g., how come no one ever noticed that "Pete Pettigrew" > hung out with Ron so often, or why didn't Harry notice that "Alastor > > Moody" never left his office (since he was locked away in his own > trunk) > > - CMC > > HARRY POTTER FILKS > http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From tkoz1 at juno.com Fri Aug 17 01:44:17 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:44:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Character (was Why Sirius...) Message-ID: <20010816.222417.-194301.1.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24344 I totally agree with everything Barb and everyone else is saying about why Dumbledore chooses to be Headmaster of Hogwarts. On a more practical note, being Minister of Magic would require a great deal of time commitment and being bogged down in red tape. That happened to Dumbledore in SS- he got called to London by an urgent message from the MOM and couldn't be there when Quirrel made that break. (Or did he do that on purpose to give Harry a chance? Either way, the point is still valid.) Being Headmaster of Hogwarts gives him a lot of free time. He can concentrate on fighting Voldy, especially with an assistant headmistress as capable as Prof. McGonagall. I mean, the school seems to run itself - we don't really see Dumbledore doing classroom observations of teachers, negotiating salaries, arguing with unions, or even holding Parent-Teacher conferences. That gives him time and latitude to deal with his real career - fighting evil. Robyn - who chose the education field because it is the most noble one in the world. On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:16:51 -0000 fourfuries at aol.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Mindy asked: > > > > if Dumbledore is the greatest wizard of his generation, why is > > he 'simply' a Headmaster of the School? Or is it THAT important > >for him to be in the school because that is the training grounds > for > the next greatest wizards of the next generation? > > > > But it's still a revealing thing about Dumbledore's character. > > > > Amy Z > > ...who'll take a teacher over a politician any day > > ...though my former state senator was both, & a great guy too > > > > > > Alot of references are made to Myers Briggs personality types on > this list, and Dumbledore desrves his due. He is very likely to be > an ENFP, which under Kiersey's analysis would make him an > Idealist/Inspirer. People of this type love to battle evil, are > truth seekers, and have as their career goal to be recognized as a > sage. They are natural leaders, but do not desire to control > people, > are project oriented as opposed to doing routinized work, but are > excellent problem solvers, full of knowledge, and have remarkable > people skills and powers of persuasion. > > If my guess is correct, Dumbledore is in heaven at Hogwarts, and > can think of no better job than headmaster. He has all the power > and > prestige he needs, in that he has the respect of teachers and > students, can influence generations of young wizards, and can > indulge > himself in the personal studies that made him "the greatest wizard > of > his age" in the first place. > > The best part is that according to the Jung/Myers-Briggs/Kiersey > line of personality theory, his choice and is values would be > completely incomprehensible to someone of a personality type that > values glory or authority or money or power for powers sake, not to > mention folks who avoid responsibility in favor of constant > sensation > and stimulation. > > It takes all kinds to run the world. Different types see different > issues as important, but all issues must be dealt with. The > question > is how we ever agree on anything at all. > > 4FR (Searching 4 Truth) > > "the truth is a wonderful and terrible thing, and therefore > should > be treated with great care." (paraphrasing) Dumbledore, PS/SS. > > And BTW Amy, I am a former politician. > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From tkoz1 at juno.com Fri Aug 17 02:14:22 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:14:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Random Parseltongue questions Message-ID: <20010816.222418.-194301.6.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24345 One sentence rant - Anne McCafferey's dragons ARE NOT CUDDLY! Robyn, who is Weyr bred. > Granted that dragons are certainly magical, but what is it that > makes > JKR's dragons seem "wise?" They seem to me to be thouroughly > reptilian, without higher communicative powers. Newt Scamander's FB > makes no mention of dragons having elevated linguistic abilities or > particular wisdom. JKR takes a thoroughly unsentimental view of > these > mythical creatures. The great humor of the Hagrid/Norbert > relationship is Hagrid treating this cold-blooded and rapidly > growing > agent of destruction as if it were some Anne McCaffrey plush toy. > > This could change in future books, but I currently see no evidence > of "Crouching" Dragons. > > - CMC > > HARRY POTTER FILKS > http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm > > > - CMC > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From tkoz1 at juno.com Fri Aug 17 01:35:26 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:35:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities / WizWorld structure Message-ID: <20010816.222417.-194301.0.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24346 Good for you, Kavitha - I was the "youngest" everything in my life and I apologized for e/t from my age when I graduated HS through my PhD. I'm still the youngest PhD student in my program - and I like that attitude. If you have the IQ and the skills to communicate in an adult manner, you're an adult- just don't ask me to serve you beer. I'm glad to see high schoolers are more mature. I've been teaching/tutoring reading and using the Harry Potter books, and every one of my fourth grade/fifth grade students says they've had a Snape. Or they say certain teachers have CHARACTERISTICS of Snape, such as favoritism. In fact, when I asked which aspect of Harry Potter seemed most realistic to them, a lot of my kids said "unfair teachers" (along with unfair classmates, class brains, and a lot of other stuff.) I disagree with you. I do think Snape is a great caricature of the teacher that you just can't please. Actually, my favorite among the teachers is McGonagall. I'd love to know more about her. And I do think the Hogwarts model is more hands on, close to university style schooling - I totally agree with that. I wish more schooling could be "cognitive apprenticeship" instead of "factory mass produced." I'm glad you're not wasting your time in a stultifying atmosphere. Robyn On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:41:58 -0000 "Kavitha Kannan" writes: > Speaking as a high school studentwho won't apologize for her age, > since it can't be changed and who instead chooses to write as well > as > she can I have never had a Snape for a teacher. And asking around > on AIM, noone I know has. I think he's exaggerated well past the > point of caricature. Embittered, biased, downright nasty 24-7he > would never survive in a school unless he's shown to be more nasty > than he really is, which, given the POV (Harry's) is possible. He's > > a combination of mad scientist puttering around in black robes and > doing strage experiments on his hair, and professor who hates > children and is only in the job because he gets to work in the > research facilities of the school. > As for the teaching methods employed, even the students in the > Potterverse mourn the amount of non-practical lessons they suffer > through. When Lupin tells them that they will be having a practical > > lesson, they're all very excited. Of course, this could be due to > Lockhart's idiocy, and their other classes seem more interesting. > The magnet program I go to is operated in the same way, with a great > > deal of hands-on experience, and prides itself on claims of being > similar to college, so I think it's reasonable to draw parallels > between Muggle university and Wizarding grade school. This spirit > seems to continue after school, so that their extremely hands-on > university is the same as their job. Also, the last five years (3th > > through 7th) seem to double as college, with students receiving > specialized training in fields of their choice. One would imagine > that by seventh year, the classes would be like internships. > From tkoz1 at juno.com Fri Aug 17 02:23:56 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:23:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: universities/WizWorld structure Message-ID: <20010816.222418.-194301.7.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24347 > > Sorry to splinch my message, Alexandra, but I thought of something > > the > > second I hit send. > > What I'm envisioning are professional societies, which are > distinct > from > > guilds. Guilds train their members from apprenticeship up, but > these > > would be comprised of only high level wizards. > > Remember in GoF, when Lupin tells Harry that the Wolfsbane Potion > was > > only recently invented? > > So, I'm proposing a proffesional PotionMakers society, where high > level > > potion makers would get together, and would present papers about > potions. > > Snape could have attended and learned about this new potion that > another > > wizard had invented. Anyone could join these societies, provided > they can > > pass a basic mastery test and afford yearly dues. Then, as you > advance > > through the society, you get degrees. So if you invent something > new, you > > get a degree for that. > > Robyn > > I like the idea of apprenticeship. Otherwise, where did Madam > Pomfrey get her training in advance healing arts? > > Marcus In the first part of my email to Alexandra, I proposed professional schools in particular disciplines. These would not be universities, but would provide some professional specialization training to graduates of Hogwarts who want to specialize in an area. They would learn in small groups and work their way up. The only difference that has from a traditional apprenticeship is that it isn't rigidly guild-determined. It's not that you buy into a guild and get trained intensely by one person, doing everything from the most menial tasks on up. Rather, you go to professional school with 10 or 12 classmates, work (in Madam Pomfrey's case) in the hospital and work your way up. Apprentices, on the other hand, have NO power and are generally children. Here, these are professional adults, capable of taking on jobs but wishing to specialize further. They would have a lot of power in terms of choosing what to specialize in and even whether or not to continue. So, the Magical Nurse's Society would do this, the Potion Master's society would do this, the Defense Against the Dark Forces League would do this. They would confer degrees and set up guidelines for new work - for example, inventing a potion or cure - which would then be published in their journal - like Popular Potions, or Transfiguration Today or Magical Maladies: Theory and Practice. They'd also have conventions to present research, generally socialize, and induct new members. Robyn, who may be seeing the world solely through the lens of her grad school experience. From tkoz1 at juno.com Fri Aug 17 02:04:35 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:04:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew: debt and Scabbers - Sirius in the Shrieking Shack Message-ID: <20010816.222417.-194301.3.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24348 'Now here's my question...why did Peter as Scabbers, bite Goyle?' > > I have wondered about this too - my very flimsy take on it is that > Peter had just realized that his owner had made friends with one > Harry Potter. Perhaps rat Peter felt a teeny tiny twinge of guilt > knowing what had happened to the boy? And when Malfoy informed Harry > > that he'll go the way of his parents if he wasn't politer (or some > such rude comment) perhaps Scabbers did have his moment of glory (as > > Fred so aptly titled it in PoA) and was biting him in defence of > Harry and his parents? I know, it's a very weak theory, but > plausible, I guess. I don't think Peter ever does anything not motivated by his fear/anxiety. He just wanted everyone to know not to mess with Ron's rat. The last thing he wants is to be examined closely - if he has a reputation for being a bit catankerous, no one will come close. I've said some of this already, but basically, I just want to say that I really don't think Peter is capable of exerting himself on behalf of someone else. Especially since it was seemingly so minor. He could have just let Goyle snatch a cake or two. All of his behavior, IMHO, is self - protective. A question about that - who's more evil, Petigrew or Lucius Malfoy? Robyn From profusepersiflage at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 02:50:12 2001 From: profusepersiflage at yahoo.com (profusepersiflage at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:50:12 -0000 Subject: Muggle and magic worlds In-Reply-To: <9lhq6m+hsgp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9li0p4+b942@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24349 > About the wizard economy: it must be tied closely to the Muggle > economy. I would like to believe that many witches and wizards work > at Muggle jobs. Hermione, for example, might well teach at Oxford > *and* write reviews for the Daily Prophet. This would resolve the > social security number problem. I'm not sure if someone's already addressed this issue, I haven't found anything in the previous posts so far but there are a lot, also, I'm new and not up to date on all the discussions. By the way, sorry about being a bit repetitive in my first and previous post about wizard's age. To the point - How can witches/wizards get muggle jobs? At least for high positions such as a university professor, or even an elementary school teacher, people must have resumes. Obviously witches/wizards cannot say that they went to Hogwarts as it dose not exist as far as muggles are concerned. So how can they possibly explain their disappearance from the muggle world or prove their residence elsewhere? From pbnesbit at msn.com Fri Aug 17 02:50:26 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:50:26 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <20010816.222418.-194301.5.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9li0pi+6ucr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24350 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > I agree - it's one of JKR's worse plot devices because so much could go > wrong if it is consulted at the wrong time. If I'm not mistaken - wasn't > Moody shown as prowling the corridors on the MM at one point? How is that > possible? He's locked in a trunk. > Also, if it shows every occupant of the Hogwarts castle, how does it deal > with floors that are on top of each other, or huge crowds of students? > It's not depicted as very big. > Robyn, who loves MWPP but hates their map. > It's Crouch, not Moody, who's shown snooping in Snape's office. (Chapter 25, pp. 405-406, UK ed.) Some of us think that the map only shows people who need to be shown (i.e. are moving about the castle) when Harry (or whoever) is roaming the halls. You might check the archives for a more detailed discussion on this. The latest discussion of it was fairly recently. BTW, welcome, Robyn! Hope you like it here. Peace & Plenty, Parker Keeper of Remus Lupin's heart Keeper of Sirius Black's body Keeper of Severus Snape's soul From frantyck at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 03:44:45 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 03:44:45 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew: debt and Scabbers - Sirius in the Shrieking Shack In-Reply-To: <20010816.222417.-194301.3.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9li3vd+pujn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24351 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > > 'Now here's my question...why did Peter as Scabbers, bite Goyle?' > > > > I have wondered about this too - my very flimsy take on it is that > > Peter had just realized that his owner had made friends with one > > Harry Potter. Perhaps rat Peter felt a teeny tiny twinge of guilt > > knowing what had happened to the boy? > > I don't think Peter ever does anything not motivated by his fear/anxiety. > He just wanted everyone to know not to mess with Ron's rat. The last > thing he wants is to be examined closely > Robyn Well, perhaps Peter the Rat was just being a rat. Taking the form of an animal gives an Animagus the senses of that animal (Sirius' sense of smell), why should it not also give some of its instincts? In which case, Rat-Peter was defending his territory, and showing an appropriate loyalty to his owner, a loyalty which might also be a part of his cover. Rrishi From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 04:13:25 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010817041325.98214.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24352 Hello, --- Alfredo_Ramrez wrote: > Ok if Sirius was innocent, why the hell was he > laughing like a maniac when > they dragged him off to Azkaban? I mean, if hed He was in shock, and when he realized the irony of the situation, he started laughing and fell into hysteria. I think so, anyway. > [snip second question] Sorry, can't answer here. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From catlady at wicca.net Fri Aug 17 04:14:22 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 04:14:22 -0000 Subject: Muggle and magic worlds In-Reply-To: <9li0p4+b942@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9li5mu+blpt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24353 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., profusepersiflage at y... wrote: > To the point - How can witches/wizards get muggle jobs? At least > for high positions such as a university professor, or even an > elementary school teacher, people must have resumes. False resumes, backed up with forged documents and wide application of Memory Charms and Confundus Charms. Paper files in some bureaucrat's file cabinet can have no longer wanted records Summoned out and the new, improved records Conjured in. Computerized databases, I assert, can be affected just as much by Memory Charms and Confundus Charms as can people and magical artifacts. That can also be how the truant officers, National Health, and so on, forget the Muggle-born witch's existence while she's at Hogwarts, but during summer holiday they remember that she's been on their books all year. I previously had assumed that Hogwarts took care of this for the Muggle-born students, but adult wizarding folk who wanted Muggle identities had to take care of all that forgery and fuddlement themselves, but someone just suggested that there is a whole Department at the MoM that takes care of it, possibly with assistance from the Muggle government (presumably in USA it would be like the Witness Protection Program). If Hermione becomes an Oxford professor, she will first finish Hogwarts, then go to Oxford as an undergraduate (presumably with false high school transcripts and forged A-levels), then as a grad student, then earn her PhD, and only THEN become a professor. > Obviously witches/wizards cannot say that they went to Hogwarts as > it does not exist as far as muggles are concerned. So how can they > possibly explain their disappearance from the muggle world or prove > their residence elsewhere? They don't need to explain their absence from the Muggle world because their (forged) paper trail says they were in the Muggle world all the time. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Aug 17 04:53:54 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 04:53:54 -0000 Subject: Dragons: Rowling v. McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <20010816.222418.-194301.6.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9li813+rotm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24354 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > One sentence rant - Anne McCafferey's dragons ARE NOT CUDDLY! > Robyn, who is Weyr bred. To quote from Gregory Feeley's "13 Ways of Looking at a Dinosaur" (from the 1993 anthology Dinosaur Fantastic) It is preadolescent boys who like dinosaurs, just as preadolescent girls may develop an interest in horses Girls want to ride horses, but boys want to be dinosaurs. Dragons may seem related to dinosaurs in popular culture, but the most beloved dragons around, those of Anne McCaffrey's novels, are basically leather-winged horses, ridden by humans dressed in boots and jerkins who enjoy such telepathic rapport with their mounts as the books' predominantly female audience can only yearn for. The quintessential dinosaur-loving kid, on the other hand, is the comic strip's Calvin, who imagines his hometown in every sandcastle he tramples. Dragons are often intelligent, and sometimes can speak: small wonder that amity even cooperation can be imagined between their kind and ours. Dinosaurs are, almost by definition, a primordial force: destructive, intractable. The one novel I know of to bring together the two creatures, Roger Zelazny's Roadmarks, tellingly unites a female dragon with a male dinosaur. ("He's not much on brains," she confides, "but what a body!") END QUOTE Rowling's dragons are clearly dinosaurs. I can easily imagine Calvin devouring Harry Potter, while remaining put off by McCaffrey. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From tkoz1 at juno.com Fri Aug 17 05:47:14 2001 From: tkoz1 at juno.com (Yis M Koslowitz) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 01:47:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dragons: Rowling v. McCaffrey Message-ID: <20010817.014752.-152069.0.tkoz1@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24355 Alright, I hear what you are saying. I still don't see them as cuddly - they do have teeth and fight. McCafferey is generally more interested in feminine things - interpersonal relationships, particularly the close human/other love - the perfect acceptance/soulmate thing. That is a stereotypically female preadolescent fantasy. So the premise is somewhat touchy/feely in that sense. But why do JKR's dragons have to be dinosaurs? Can't they just be enraged beasts of any sort - governed by instinct - in this case to protect their young. I don't see them as particularly malevolent when not threatened. They don't hunt out humans to kill, in the way that Calvin's dinosaur does. And by the way, Calvin does have that perfect soulmate/other in Hobbes. In which case, I will borrow a concept from another series - David Eddings Belgariad, where the sorceress Polgara speaks the language of the birds but realizes they really don't have much to say. The HH doesn't have much to say - a bellow of rage covers it all. Robyn, still Weyrbred, and perfectly capable of breathing fire. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Susy spied an elf, But all the magic that I've known, I've had to make myself - Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 04:53:54 -0000 "Caius Marcius" writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > > One sentence rant - Anne McCafferey's dragons ARE NOT CUDDLY! > > Robyn, who is Weyr bred. > > To quote from Gregory Feeley's "13 Ways of Looking at a Dinosaur" > (from the 1993 anthology Dinosaur Fantastic) > > It is preadolescent boys who like dinosaurs, just as preadolescent > girls may develop an interest in horsesGirls want to ride horses, > but boys want to be dinosaurs. Dragons may seem related to dinosaurs > > in popular culture, but the most beloved dragons around, those of > Anne McCaffrey's novels, are basically leather-winged horses, ridden > > by humans dressed in boots and jerkins who enjoy such telepathic > rapport with their mounts as the books' predominantly female > audience > can only yearn for. The quintessential dinosaur-loving kid, on the > other hand, is the comic strip's Calvin, who imagines his hometown > in > every sandcastle he tramples. > > Dragons are often intelligent, and sometimes can speak: small wonder > > that amity even cooperation can be imagined between their kind and > ours. Dinosaurs are, almost by definition, a primordial force: > destructive, intractable. The one novel I know of to bring together > the two creatures, Roger Zelazny's Roadmarks, tellingly unites a > female dragon with a male dinosaur. ("He's not much on brains," she > confides, "but what a body!") > > END QUOTE > > Rowling's dragons are clearly dinosaurs. I can easily imagine > Calvin > devouring Harry Potter, while remaining put off by McCaffrey. > > - CMC > > HARRY POTTER FILKS > http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From katzefan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 06:10:38 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 06:10:38 -0000 Subject: DADA , Snape and Slytherin In-Reply-To: <9lgi8s+hgd2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9licgu+m40d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24356 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cimorene21 at h... wrote: > > > >DADA is training students the why of magic, not just the how. It's > >like ethics courses for doctors. Without a thorough training in > >this, a school trains wizards with no foundation of good and evil. > >The product would be ammoral, easily-swayed wizards who wield power > >without the understanding that would keep them on the side of the > >right and good. It's all about intention. > > Which brings us to a question that is heavy on my mind. Is Draco > Malfoy evil, or merely the product of poor examples in his mother and > father? How about Snape and the whole Slytherin gang? I am sure > this has been discussed before on the group, but I am asking > specifically what qualifies one as an evil wizard, or a potentially > evil wizard. > > Obviously it is something in the character of the person before they > reach Hogwarts, because the Sorting Hat seems to sort the prideful, > ambitious, snobby and hateful people into Slytherin. But are these > the only evils? Cornelius Fudge is going to do terrible damage in the > next book IMO and I doubt that he is a Slytherin alum. His blindness > to the real danger, and his complacency with easy answers are just as > dangerous as the active plotting of Malfoy, sr. > > I agree with Steve about the purpose of the school to be to train > character as much as talent (see my prior post Re: Magical Talent > and Wands Part Two). The challenge comes in admitting that teaching > right and wrong means that we voluntarily choose NOT to do things we > are perfectly capable of doing. Good people voluntarily restrain > themselves. > > Voldy says to Quirrell in PS/SS "The Man With Two Faces": > (paraphrasing) "There is no right and wrong, only power, and those > too weak to use it." > > As a result Dumbledore observes in chapter two that Voldy has "powers > I never had", but Minerva immediately replies "that's only because > you are to noble to use them". The difference between Voldy and > Dumbledore, then, is Dumbledore's sense of restraint. > > I think Snape would like to be the DADA teacher, because he knows > more about the dark arts than anybody else at Hogwarts, with the > possible exception of Prof D (In PoA, doesn't someone say that Snape > came to school knowing more curses than most kids ever learned in > their 7 years?) Drak Arts is Snape's natural interest, he likes > power, and was probably a Death Eater because of these natural > inclinations. > > But he learned somehow to restrain himself. He pulled back from evil. > So, my question is where do Slytherins learn restraint? > > 4FR IMO the difference between Fudge and the Slytherin types is that Fudge is blundering about trying to avoid a catastrophe, but only by reflexively depending on whatever has worked in the past. Voldemort, the Malfoys, etcetera, on the other hand, actively relish stepping hard on those weaker than themselves and grabbing increasing amounts of power to allow them to continue to do so. From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Aug 17 06:16:07 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:16:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mindy: Some possible avenues of thought. Message-ID: <106.44cf97c.28ae10a7@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24357 In a message dated 8/16/01 11:34:33 AM Central Daylight Time, A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk writes: << Not in Muggle Britain where it is not compulsory to send your children to school. The law says that parents are obliged to provide their children with a full-time education either by enrolling them in a recognised school 'or otherwise'. The Home Education Movement in Britain is called 'education otherwise...' Basically you can just do it without asking permission. Assume this as the background to Wizarding Britain. >> I'm sorry if this was mentioned already, but I'm a bit behind in my messages today. This is my first *real* post, so it may not make complete sense, but I'm giving it a try. Now as Edis said, parents of Muggle-born students could say they are home educated. They can also take Uncle Vernon's route and say he goes to a different school. Wouldn't the Dursleys be smarter in saying that Harry is home educated? He doesn't have to say they teach him, but can't they say he has a tutor? "Just our nephew -- very disturbed -- meeting strangers upsets him, so we kept him upstairs" [CoS; Chapter 2] There you go! Good reason as to why he's not in the same school as Dudley. Now, you may be wondering 'what difference does it make?' Well, it could. The irony of life is that unexpected things always happen. Something like this could easily happen: "Say Vernon, doesn't your nephew you live with you? Harry right?" - new neighbor "Uh, yes he does." - Vernon "Where does he go to school? I didn't see him leaving with Dudley this morning when he went to Smeltings." - neighbor "St. Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys." - Vernon "Really? What a coincidence! So does my nephew. The next time I write him, I'll see if he knows him!" - neighbor Nice predicament, eh? Now, St. Brutus's *could* be made up too, but it may not me. AFAIK, it never says it's *real* or not. I highly doubt no one has ever asked Vernon or Petunia where Harry goes off too. (They must have a noisy neighbor, or someone to notice it!) They probably stick to the same story...otherwise it'd be really stupid. They *could* have told everyone a made-up school, but someone may get suspicious. (For example, my mother knows all the churches in our area and would get a bit suspicious if someone named a church she didn't recognize.) Why can't they just make up a person? Say that they go live with Petunia's great-aunt in Switzerland or something. Anyway, my question is does anyone think I have a point? Is St. Brutys's real or what? Like I said, this is my first post and I'm far off from being an adult. I *do* hope it makes at least some sense. Tear it apart if you want. I don't doubt I've made a mistake or too. I've learned not to take it seriously from this group, and I'd love to hear opinions! Oh, and I tried my best to use correct grammer. Please forgive me if I didn't. Forge From katzefan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 06:24:50 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 06:24:50 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lidbi+n7sa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24358 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alfredo Ram?rez wrote: > I apologize if any of this has been brought up before. I just finished > reading PoA for the second time, and noticed a few interesting things that I > had not seen before. > > A) "I was Junior Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes at > the time, and I was one of the first on the scene after Black murdered all > of those people. I ? I will never forget it. I still dream about it > sometimes. A crater in the middle of the street, so deep it had cracked the > sewer below. Bodies everywhere. Muggles screaming. And _Black standing there > laughing_, with what was left of Pettigrew in front of him a heap of > bloodstained robes and a few ? a few fragments ? > > ? PoA, Page 208, American Hardcover edition. > > Ok if Sirius was innocent, why the hell was he laughing like a maniac when > they dragged him off to Azkaban? I mean, if he'd been in shock or something, > that's understandable, but laughing? Was this ever explained or should I > just ignore it? > > B) But Black's free hand had found Harry's throat ? > "No," he hissed, "I've waited too long ? " > The fingers tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew. > - PoA, Page 340, American Hardcover edition. > > Uhm, common sense tells me that if you want to show someone you're not > responsible for their parents' deaths, you _don_ strangle them. I understand > that Sirius is a bit off-balance; years in Azkaban can do that to you, but > strangling Harry? That doesn't seem like a good idea. > > Those are pretty much the two things I don't really understand. Any > explanation? > > JB > > >1) People in shock don't always react rationally. He may have been covered with grue and gore (an explosion that can kill a dozen or so people can usually spew debris for quite some distance) - combined with shock and horror - and, as Elspeth suggests, the sudden realization that this wimpy little hanger-on has plotted all this, carried it out and left him hanging off a very thin branch in a very high wind. 2) Good question. That's hardly the best way to convince somebody to listen to you. I'm wondering if he intended to grab Harry's arm or shoulder and got him by the throat by accident, and was sufficiently agitated that he really didn't notice. From oppen at cnsinternet.com Fri Aug 17 06:28:47 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 01:28:47 -0500 Subject: Ministry of Magic, and mage-Muggle relations Message-ID: <013201c126e5$dfc23ea0$e8c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 24359 If the Ministry of Magic is like other cabinet-level positions in the British government, it would change hands whenever a change of party control in Parliament occured. There would be a "shadow" Minister of Magic, affiliated with the opposite party (i.e. a Tory "shadow" MoM under the current Labour regime, forex) and if Parliament changed hands, he would take over. So far, Herself hasn't mentioned this, but it would be an interesting plot complication at some point. Would Lucius Malfoy be the "shadow" MoM? As for mage-Muggle relations, my own experience is that British bureaucracy (or "bureaucrazy" as I spelled it when I was little) is so byzantine that it wouldn't surprise anybody to have some special sub-section of the law that is invoked to explain why the (wizard) family at the end of the lane doesn't send their children to the local comprehensive school. I do think, though, that wizards are British subjects like any others, just with special institutions to deal with their special powers. Putting Voldemort, or even an ordinary wizard, into Dartmoor wouldn't do much good---he could probably crash on out pretty easily. I bet the wizards of Britain rallied around to their side during World Wars One and Two---just keeping out of sight and doing their bit for Blighty without the public knowing they were there. Was Grindelwald the motive force behind Hitler? From nethilia at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 06:46:06 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 1147 In-Reply-To: <997998313.2577.52431.l8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010817064606.38366.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24360 JB asked: 'Ok if Sirius was innocent, why the hell was he laughing like a maniac when they dragged him off to Azkaban? I mean, if he'd been in shock or something, that's understandable, but laughing? Was this ever explained or should I just ignore it?' *~*~* He was probably completely in shock at everything that happened/was happening/had happened. As I read in one book (I think it was an Animorphs book), when bad things happen to you--really tragic things--you can either be sad and depressed or laugh. And it doesn't hurt as much to laugh at the irony than cry at the tragedy. Either that, or his mind snapped at that moment and he couldn't do anything but laugh until he was in Azkaban, and then all he could do was survive on the fact he was not guilty. --Neth ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- 65% obsessed with Harry Potter **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From katzefan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 06:51:09 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 06:51:09 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <20010816.222418.-194301.5.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <9liest+mk71@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24361 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > I agree - it's one of JKR's worse plot devices because so much could go > wrong if it is consulted at the wrong time. If I'm not mistaken - wasn't > Moody shown as prowling the corridors on the MM at one point? How is that > possible? He's locked in a trunk. > Also, if it shows every occupant of the Hogwarts castle, how does it deal > with floors that are on top of each other, or huge crowds of students? > It's not depicted as very big. > Robyn, who loves MWPP but hates their map. Could it be that the map can't see below the surface? Everyone else sees a rat, not Peter Pettigrew; everyone else sees 'Mad- Eye' Moody, not Barty Crouch Jr. As for the map not knowing the 'real' Moody was held captive in his trunk, that trunk came across as something out of a science-fiction movie: a device that lets you access other dimensions. So Moody is being held in a dungeon somewhere; the trunk just allows Crouch Jr. to get to Moody quickly and with little fuss, to replenish his Polyjuice Potion. Which brings me to my next question: how deep *is* the transformation with Polyjuice Potion? Do you take on ALL the attributes - internal and external (except psychological; the stories so far suggest you retain your own personality) of the person you're mimicking? That would make it harder yet to determine whether the person in front of you is "the real thing" (hello, Coca-Cola) or not. katzefan <<<<<------- who has *got* to stop wading through these messages at 3 a.m. From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Aug 17 08:52:24 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:52:24 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <9liest+mk71@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lim08+78dm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24362 Two (possibly related) thoughts on the Marauderers Map. Firstly it was made (it is claimed) by a gang of skilled teenage magical hackers. Seeing what Muggle teenage software hackers can do makes it easy to believe magical hackers can acheive some impressive results. However again from experience there can be unexpected gliches and crashes if the programme/magical object is pushed beyond its limits. Secondly, I think there is a serious plot clue in the warning 'never trust something that thinks for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brains'. JKR flags this for Tom Riddle's diary and for the map - though Harry dismisses the warning from his mind once he starts using the map. But perhaps the map is actually dangerous and wilfully unreliable? In short maybe from time to time it has its own agenda, or the agenda of some outside power. A question for Sirius maybe? Anyway, Harry and co are coming up to the age of MWPP when the map was devised. Getting perhaps to the level of magical skill where they too can hack up original magical objects. Wonder whether the opportunities and dangers of magical hacking come into future plots.... Edis From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 13:31:00 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and Magical Ability, Part Two Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24363 > He came to >Hogwarts without the baggage of hatred, envy, anger, etc I don't quite accept that; Harry's abusive treatment at the hands of the Dursleys is at least equal to Tom Riddle's experience in its capacity to produce hatred ("how dare they refer to my parents like that") envy (Dudley's 32 presents vs a pair of old socks) and anger (Aunt Marge); as Dumbledore stresses, it is what he does with his experiences that differentiates them. Either Harry or Neville could have good grounds for saying they "had" to join the dark side - sofar they are resisting admirably. Susan From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Aug 17 10:29:19 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:29:19 -0000 Subject: school selection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lirlv+pbd5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24364 "Simon" wrote: they take all those who get over y % on the tests. > > In the case of Eton you can be entered for the schools selection from birth or just before you would start (start years range from 11- 14 I believe). For those who really really want to know abut Public School entrance in Britain This is how it is done at Eton College. See the Eton homepage at http://146.101.4.41/Splash.asp The pictures may help put into context the Mental Images of school dress and so on. Personally (referring to the film) I think the designers of the uniforms have missed a trick in going for a more conventional appearance. They could even have adopted the Christ's Hospital look see the pictures at: http://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/FrameSchool.htm The Magical Quill in the Potterverse maps perhaps onto the Eton List. Public Schools in Britain are Publicly Endowed schools (historically, not funded by the Church and limited to church selected entrants). They are private and independent of the State. Edis From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Fri Aug 17 11:05:14 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:05:14 -0000 Subject: Can Dementors talk? In-Reply-To: <9lhol1+rjj9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9litpa+e3gs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24365 >Do the dementors speak? They remind me on The Ghost of Christmas Future (TGOCF). The black shroud with no emotion, no voice, only visions or awful feelings generating from them. The only diffence between dementors and TGOCF is that TGOCF has benevolent intentions whereas dementors have ghastly intentions. jacqbeagle From djtarb at aol.com Fri Aug 17 12:03:43 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:03:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore, Gleam & Gandalf Message-ID: <26.19f54202.28ae621f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24366 In a message dated Thu, 16 Aug 2001 1:38:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fourfuries at aol.com writes: > > One other note. Dumbledore is similar to Tolkien's wizard, Gandalf > The Grey, in several regards. Both are powerfully magical, > storehouses of knowledge, the greatest wizards of their respective > generations. The big differene is that Dumbledore is a much nicer > person, who feels for Harry and others, and calculates those feelings > into his plans and actions. > > Gandalf was happy wandering around Middle-Earth hatching and > nurturing his many schemes. In the Hobbit, he left Thorin > Oakenshield and company to face the dragon Smaug by themselves, and > left Thorin's father to die in the Necromancer's dungeons. In the > trilogy, he was perfectly willing to sacrifice Frodo and Sam if it > meant destroying his nemesis. He was a cold calulating thinker type, > who happened to believe in fighting for the good. > > Dumbledore, on the other hand, was elated by the news that Voldy > had used Harry's blood in his rebirthing potion (thus the gleam), but > worn out by the fact that IMO it means that Harry is now even more > vulnerable to Voldemort's attacks. In other words, Dumbledore gives > a damn about the person, Gandalf (and Barty Crouch sr.) cares about > the outcome. Does the end justtify the menas? Or is there a right > way and a wrong way? > Let me weigh in here. As a long-time Tolkein fan, I've had some interesting discussions with others about the nature and character of Gandalf. Remember, the Gandalf was not *of* Middle Earth, but had been sent there on some specific missions, and most of those actions were in furtherance of those missions. Dumbledore is very much *of* the wizarding community and has many more personal ties. That does not mean, however, that he will not be forced to send friends into danger, perhaps to their deaths, or to abandon others as the tides of the war against Voldemort shift. As to the issue of Gandalf not caring, he shows over and over that he does care deeply about his friends. He abandons his confrontation with the Nazgul at the gate of Minas Tirith in order to save Faramir. And who can believe, reading the passage of his conversation with the Mouth of Sauron at the gates of Mordor, that he was not horrified and almost broken by the thought of Frodo's probable torment? Yes, he fought on. Yes, he was willing to sacrifice the lives of his friends. That, sadly, is what war is about. Dumbledore will do the same thing, when push comes to shove and, given his history of battling the evil wizards of the 20th century, has probably done so already. I see them as very similar in character. I'm looking forward to seeing Dumbledore's personal ethic further revealed as the pressure gets higher. Diane in PA From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 17 12:11:48 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:11:48 -0000 Subject: Filch - AD and GtheG - Dragon lingo - Fudge Message-ID: <9lj1m4+2m5o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24367 Mundungus wrote: > I suspect Filch's predecessor was the one who confiscated the map in > the first place. Filch bears all the earmarks of a Dumbledore hiree > (unfortunate circumstances e.g. being a squib, werewolf, or half- > giant). Good point on the Dumbledore hire--who else would tolerate him? Dumbledore was already headmaster in the MWPP days, though, so Filch was likely the one who confiscated the Map. 4FR wrote: > In these regards, as you rightly point out, both Dumbledore and > Gandalf are more than happy to use lesser talents than themselves as > hapless pawns in the game of world domination, while they behave like > kings, too valuable to lose. Willing to use others, yes. "Happy," no. Look at Dumbledore at the end of "The Pensieve." He knows Harry's life is on the line and it grieves and frightens him (Allyse pointed out similar scenes in LOTR). I don't think he sees any alternative. But then, Harry is not, strictly speaking, a lesser talent. There are things to be done that only Harry can do; Dumbledore can only assist. There's nothing hapless about Harry, either. He took Voldemort on face to face of his own free will when he was 11 years old. I love that speech in the common room in PS/SS 16. As for the kings being too valuable to lose, I'm sure Dumbledore is going to die and it will probably be a heroic death. And Gandalf is unwilling to sacrifice himself? Come take a stroll through the mines of Moria with me. Robyn wrote: > In which case, I will borrow a concept from another series - David > Eddings Belgariad, where the sorceress Polgara speaks the language of the > birds but realizes they really don't have much to say. Arthur discovers the same in Hitchhiker's Guide. Quick note re: Fudge: Monika, it doesn't say Fudge was the only candidate, just that he was a fallback to Crouch Sr. and Dumbledore. Amy Z who understands Sirius because she laughs uncontrollably when accused of something she didn't do --------------------------------------------------------------- "Don't you call me an idiot!" said Neville. "I don't think you should be breaking any more rules! And you were the one who told me to stand up to people!" "Yes, but not to =us=," said Ron in exasperation. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------------------------------- From tabouli at unite.com.au Fri Aug 17 11:56:02 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:56:02 +1000 Subject: More Old Hat & Dumbledore/Belgarath Message-ID: <007c01c12716$6d83c300$90846fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 24368 Aleks: > Just my humble opinion, but I think the hat doesn't see clear thoughts unless directed at it (ie/ Harry's dialogue). And perhaps it can only tell people about themselves - in the words of Aslan, 'I cannot tell anyone somebody else's story...' (paraphased, C.S.Lewis - The Horse and His Boy). What prompted my musings was rereading the first Sorting Hat song (as I quoted: "There's nothing hidden in your head the Sorting Hat can't see"), exchanging conversation with Harry, and remembering that when Harry tried it on again in CoS the Hat immediately started sniffing around and commented that he'd been wondering whether it had put him in the right house. This is a sentient, mind-reading Hat capable of conversation we have here: that comment *isn't* just a detection of a particular personality type but a correct assessment of what Harry's been obsessing about for some time. If it can tell what Harry's been thinking about, and sees everything in a person's head, it would definitely have detected Voldemort on the back of Quirrell's head and known that Moody was really Crouch Junior! Coming to your second point, though, I think the Hat would have to have some kind of confidentiality or no-memory clause. Otherwise, it could potentially remember what was in the mind of every student in Hogwarts at 11! What if the Hat fell into evil hands and started gossiping? I wonder what it said to the 11 year old Tom Riddle? Robyn: > Albus seems the most similar to David Edding's Belgarath the Sorcerer - he has a more direct and hands on approach to dealing with evil, is training a younger one (who's an orphan), has a great sense of humor and looks traditionally wizardly. Maybe in circumstances they're similar, but I think Belgarath's overall attitude and image is quite different. Dumbledore's humour is lightly ironic (terribly English, that!), articulate and satirical, and he projects a sort of wise kindly grandfather image most of the time, whereas Belgarath projects the disreputable, slovenly old man image, and his humour is more sarcastic and involves baiting people, usually Polgara. The kindly grandfather is only an occasional visitor. Compare Dumbledore: "What happened down in the dungeons (...) is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows. I believe your friends Misters Fred and George were responsible for trying to send you a lavatory seat." with Belgarath (to Garion after he's just blown their cover): "Are you sure you don't have a trumpet somewhere under your clothes? Maybe you could blow a few fanfares as you go along." OK, so not a perfect example for comparison, but I think it illustrates the difference. Further comments welcome... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Aug 17 13:47:49 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:47:49 -0000 Subject: Wands and Magical Ability, Part Two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lj7a5+tcvi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24369 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., shall at s... wrote: > > He came to > >Hogwarts without the baggage of hatred, envy, anger, etc > > I don't quite accept that; Harry's abusive treatment at the hands of the Dursleys is at least equal to Tom Riddle's experience in its capacity to produce hatred ("how dare they refer to my parents like that") envy (Dudley's 32 presents vs a pair of old socks) and anger (Aunt Marge); as Dumbledore stresses, it is what he does with his experiences that differentiates them. Either Harry or Neville could have good grounds for saying they "had" to join the dark side - sofar they are resisting admirably. > > Susan I think you do agree. I think I failed to be clear! You have rightly pointed out the reasons why Harry COULD have turned evil. But the events of a person's life do not determine the "baggage" we carry away from those events. Even before he gets to Hogwarts, Harry displays tremendous, almost saintly perserverance and fortitude in just dealing with the Dursleys, as opposed to burning their house down (as Tom Riddle might have done). His kindness and generousity to Ron on the first train ride to Hogwarts came from his sensitivity to the feelings of others,which we are to assume he developed during his free time in the cupboard under the stair. When he arrives at Diagon Alley, not only is he not snobby, stand-offish or rude, he is absolutely delightful for a boy who suddenly finds himself the center of the wizarding world. The "good" aspects of his character are already there. They are unconscious and genuine. Tom Riddle on the other hand, came to Hogwarts with an inarticulate but deadly hate, developed that hate into a deadly alter ego, and then devised a murderous plan to spread that hate across the wizarding world, that the whole world might come to "fear" his name, Lord Voldemort. My point is that that similar experiences will only produce similar results in similar people. Other than superficial similarities of background discussed in CoS (and a minor transfer of the Parseltongue), Harry and Tom have nothing in common. The are fundamentally different kinds of people. 4FR Hopeful From leigh_brady at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 13:59:01 2001 From: leigh_brady at yahoo.com (leigh_brady at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:59:01 -0000 Subject: Ravenclaw Message-ID: <9lj7v5+aj4b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24370 Hi everyone, I am new to this list, and have been lurking, but a question has occurred to me that I thought I would ask. Does anyone know who the head of the Ravenclaw House is? I know that the heads of the other Houses are mentioned, but I don't remember that one being mentioned. Thanks! Leigh From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Aug 17 13:59:44 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:59:44 -0000 Subject: Be nice to Gandalf (Was: Dumbledore, Gleam & Gandalf) In-Reply-To: <9lhn41+rvgs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lj80h+f70r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24371 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Allyse at m... wrote: > > Can't you just picture Albus politely refusing > > an offer of pipeweed, and offering Gandalf some Every-Flavored > > Beans? :) > > > > Allyse > > I love it! Each one talking about inconsequencial things, one talking > about the problems with students, the other complaining about hobbits; > but the deep love each one feels toward their charges showing through > all their supposed complaints. > > Gandalf would likely turn down the Bernie Bott's, but I dare say he > would flip over the lemon sherberts! > > I wonder if either would mention Voldemort or Sauron. I think not. > Unless the battle was waging, that is. I think they would just enjoy > each other's company and enjoy the mutual respect they would have for > each other. Neither one has anything to prove. > > Fanfic, anyone? > > Marcus Brilliant! I can see them getting together at the Semi-Centennial, Interdimensional Conference of Wizards, Witches, Sorcerors and Magi. Merlin, the overbearing, self-important git, would no doubt be president, Dumbledore the eccentric past board member sought out for his wisdom in dealing with the many oversized egos, and Gandalf the house curmudgeon, always trying to focus the congress on matters of real importance. But then again, I could be wrong. 4FR Curious From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 13:59:16 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:59:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Old Hat & Dumbledore/Belgarath Message-ID: <20010817.095920.-195381.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24372 > What prompted my musings was rereading the first Sorting Hat song > (as I quoted: "There's nothing hidden in your head the Sorting Hat > can't see"), exchanging conversation with Harry, and remembering > that when Harry tried it on again in CoS the Hat immediately started > sniffing around and commented that he'd been wondering whether it > had put him in the right house. This is a sentient, mind-reading > Hat capable of conversation we have here: that comment *isn't* just > a detection of a particular personality type but a correct > assessment of what Harry's been obsessing about for some time. If > it can tell what Harry's been thinking about, and sees everything in > a person's head, it would definitely have detected Voldemort on the > back of Quirrell's head and known that Moody was really Crouch > Junior! > > Coming to your second point, though, I think the Hat would have to > have some kind of confidentiality or no-memory clause. Otherwise, > it could potentially remember what was in the mind of every student > in Hogwarts at 11! What if the Hat fell into evil hands and started > gossiping? I wonder what it said to the 11 year old Tom Riddle? I still think the Hat is more of a personality profiler. Part of that is detecting pressing immediate problems, in order to assess the personality better. When a person goes in for psychological treatment, part of assessing their personality is assessing just what issues and concerns are most pressing to them. So it automatically knew Harry's problem in CoS because it was his most pressing. "There's nothing hidden in your head the sorting hat can't see" But that doesn't mean the SH will see it, or should see it. Dumbledore could probably make use of it to see more, but I think it would need to be used by a wizard. I like the idea of a confidentiality clause! > Robyn: > > Albus seems the most similar to David Edding's > Belgarath the Sorcerer - he has a more direct and hands on approach > to > dealing with evil, is training a younger one (who's an orphan), has > a > great sense of humor and looks traditionally wizardly. > > Maybe in circumstances they're similar, but I think Belgarath's > overall attitude and image is quite different. Dumbledore's humour > is lightly ironic (terribly English, that!), articulate and > satirical, and he projects a sort of wise kindly grandfather image > most of the time, whereas Belgarath projects the disreputable, > slovenly old man image, and his humour is more sarcastic and > involves baiting people, usually Polgara. The kindly grandfather is > only an occasional visitor. > > Compare Dumbledore: "What happened down in the dungeons (...) is a > complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows. I believe > your friends Misters Fred and George were responsible for trying to > send you a lavatory seat." > > with Belgarath (to Garion after he's just blown their cover): "Are > you sure you don't have a trumpet somewhere under your clothes? > Maybe you could blow a few fanfares as you go along." > > OK, so not a perfect example for comparison, but I think it > illustrates the difference. Further comments welcome... That's true. I just meant in terms of having a hands-on approach to evil. Also, I liked both characters - Dumbledore and Belgarath- I think Belgarath is sarcastic only to get his point across - he is battling a God, after all, and needs to train Garion quickly. It's his style. But the benevelent grandfather is there under the surface.You know he loves Garion and would not sacrifice him to attain his ends. You get the same sense of love from Dumbledore. Garion - after some fairly decisive event "Don't you wish you were still Old Wolf, and I was still Garion, and we were in Faldor's barn with a wineskin and food I've stolen for you. "Sometimes, Garion, sometimes" Belgarath replied with a wistful look on his face. (inexact quote.) Actually, I don't like the Gandalf -Dumbledore comparison at all. Personally, I don't like Gandalf. He's aloof and condescending. He doesn't tell his heroes everything, which I hate. Don't yell at me, everyone. It's just an opinion. I love Tolkein, and like a lot of people on this listserve (I bet) I practically memorized The Lord of the Rings when I was preadolescent. The most refreshing thing about HP is that it is not another copy of Tolkein. That's been done so many times, with varying degrees of success. Let's just all admit that Tolkein was Tolkein and no one else is, though there are other good authors. I like the way JKR can break away from those traditions so easily and create something recognizable, yet new. Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 14:18:47 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:18:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and Magical Ability, Part Two Message-ID: <20010817.101851.-195381.1.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24373 I agree with what both of you are saying about Harry and Voldy exept for the assertion that Harry and Voldy are fundamentally different people with similar superficial circumstances. I think Harry's strength, and the reason he can oppose Voldy so successfully is because they are so similar.YOu need to fight a similar evil with a similar good. Both are stubborn, but Harry's stubborn-ness is used for good. Both have "a certain disregard for rules" but again, Harry is not own for his own selfish benefit. Harry and Voldy are two sides of the same coin. That's why they balance out so well. They are exact equal opposites. Harry is what Voldy could be, if he'd give up his vendetta against his father and all Muggles. Voldy is what Harry could be, if he joined Slytherin. All of this is IMHO, but I really see Harry and Voldy as extremely similar, which I think is JKR's point - Dumbledore said, it's all in the choices you make. Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:47:49 -0000 fourfuries at aol.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., shall at s... wrote: > > > He came to > > >Hogwarts without the baggage of hatred, envy, anger, etc > > > > I don't quite accept that; Harry's abusive treatment at the hands > of the Dursleys is at least equal to Tom Riddle's experience in its > capacity to produce hatred ("how dare they refer to my parents like > that") envy (Dudley's 32 presents vs a pair of old socks) and anger > (Aunt Marge); as Dumbledore stresses, it is what he does with his > experiences that differentiates them. Either Harry or Neville could > > have good grounds for saying they "had" to join the dark side - > sofar > they are resisting admirably. > > > > Susan > > I think you do agree. I think I failed to be clear! You have > rightly pointed out the reasons why Harry COULD have turned evil. > But the events of a person's life do not determine the "baggage" we > carry away from those events. > > Even before he gets to Hogwarts, Harry displays tremendous, almost > > saintly perserverance and fortitude in just dealing with the > Dursleys, as opposed to burning their house down (as Tom Riddle > might > have done). His kindness and generousity to Ron on the first train > > ride to Hogwarts came from his sensitivity to the feelings of > others,which we are to assume he developed during his free time in > the cupboard under the stair. When he arrives at Diagon Alley, not > only is he not snobby, stand-offish or rude, he is absolutely > delightful for a boy who suddenly finds himself the center of the > wizarding world. > > The "good" aspects of his character are already there. They are > unconscious and genuine. Tom Riddle on the other hand, came to > Hogwarts with an inarticulate but deadly hate, developed that hate > into a deadly alter ego, and then devised a murderous plan to spread > > that hate across the wizarding world, that the whole world might > come > to "fear" his name, Lord Voldemort. > > My point is that that similar experiences will only produce > similar > results in similar people. Other than superficial similarities of > background discussed in CoS (and a minor transfer of the > Parseltongue), Harry and Tom have nothing in common. The are > fundamentally different kinds of people. > > 4FR Hopeful From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Aug 17 14:51:08 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:51:08 -0000 Subject: Wands and Magical Ability, Part Two In-Reply-To: <20010817.101851.-195381.1.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9ljb0s+6nf0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24374 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > I agree with what both of you are saying about Harry and Voldy exept for > the assertion that Harry and Voldy are fundamentally different people > with similar superficial circumstances. > They are exact equal opposites. Harry is what Voldy could > be, if he'd give up his vendetta against his father and all Muggles. > Voldy is what Harry could be, if he joined Slytherin. All of this is > IMHO, but I really see Harry and Voldy as extremely similar, which I > think is JKR's point - Dumbledore said, it's all in the choices you make. > Which brings us full circle to the study question: the difference between talent and character. Voldy and Harry have similar talents, (as do Dumbledore and Gandalf, to mix two existing threads). But Harry and Voldy have totally different characters. One believes in judicious restraint, the other in unbridled power. Those are the choices that Dumbledore refers to. Talent has no meaning outside of what you use it for. Thus all great fantasy literature sets up a protagonist with an improbable gift (magic sword, magic ring, magic talent) and then tests that person in a series of battles, challenges, and temptations to see what is in their soul. It is in this regard that fantasy lit resembles real life, and becomes so instructive for those of us who enjoy it. The magic gifts are exaggerations (sp?) of the true talents possessed by each of us. The trials of our heroes are compelling because they are exaggerations of our own everyday trials. 4FR Studious From kira at kc.rr.com Fri Aug 17 14:52:03 2001 From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:52:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Black References: <9lidbi+n7sa@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00da01c1272c$3acf6840$a473f2d1@lisaannc> No: HPFGUIDX 24375 I am not sure if this is a good explanation but I look at it this way. Sirius has been in Azkaban for what, 12 years or close to it. He has been kept sane only on the knowledge that he was innocent and framed by this whimpy little man that used to follow him around idolizing James and him all through school. He had to be saying the same thing over and over, if I ever get out of here and get my hands on that little rat I'm gonna.......(multiple choices to fill in the blanks here). Then he finds out where the rat is, manages to escape, finally gets his hands on Peter only to have this little kid stop him from getting his revenge. He was so far deep into the need to kill Peter that he did not realize what he was doing to Harry but he did stop himself from hurting him. I think that whether or not he wanted to realize it, Sirius saw the same thing that Dumbledore did, Harry is like James, and James would not want him dead either. I think this helped Sirius come out of his killing rage. At least, this is my opinion. LA ----- Original Message ----- From: katzefan at yahoo.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 1:24 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Black 2) Good question. That's hardly the best way to convince somebody to listen to you. I'm wondering if he intended to grab Harry's arm or shoulder and got him by the throat by accident, and was sufficiently agitated that he really didn't notice. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mindyatime at juno.com Fri Aug 17 14:57:47 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:57:47 -0400 Subject: Answers Re: Sirius Black/Dementors/Marauder's Map/Pettigrew vs. Lucius/ Message-ID: <20010817.105915.-387367.3.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24376 Sirius: IMHO, I don't think Sirius Black was 'laughing his head off'. The person who told the story to Harry (I've forgottn who) either 1) embellished the story or 2) THOUGHT he saw Black laughing. After all, the perception was, that he was the one who did it all, so his mind was so biased and angry that he THOUGHT he saw him laughing. I still don't understand why the Dementors were dismissed and the danger declared over, if Sirius escaped the second time. Look at the protection and fear everyone had for Harry while Sirius was on the loose -- and now no one believes Harry's story, Sirius is gone again, and the guard is totally dropped! What gives? Dementors: As for Jesse's question, perhaps there are human guards at Azkaban at certain intervals of the day/week/month. I wonder if Azkaban was truly left only in the hands of the dementors at all time. Marauder's Map: I understand, that since there are soooo many students swarming around the school at any given hour, it was very hard for Harry to pinpoint people like Moody and Pettigrew spontaneously -- there was so much going on there that he couldn't focus on every detail, nor did he have the time to focus on every detail. He was more or less searching for one particular thing, such as if Filch was patrolling the corridors. When he spotted "Crouch" in Snape's office, he did because 1) It was basically the only moving thing in a sleeping Hogwarts, and 2) It was extremely odd. Had it been anyone else in Snape's office, he wouldn't give a darn about it; but being that Crouch had disappeared and he suddenly showed up in Snape's office, he noticed it immediately. Who's more evil, Pettigrew or Lucius: IMO, definitely Lucius. Pettigrew is a bumbling idiot who does his master's budding out of fear and dimness. Lucius is bright, cunning, calculated and menacing. Pettigrew never appeares menacing and fear-provoking. He is just timidly doing what Voldie demands of him, not out of his own accord. But I guess we will have to wait and see what book 5 holds for him. (Do you think we'll all be bored of HP by next July? This waiting period is quite awful. Will 10 billion copies at first printing be suffiicent? I have a feeling I will not be able to get my hands on a copy until the second printing, several months later... Whew.) From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 15:04:17 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:04:17 -0000 Subject: More Old Hat & Dumbledore/Belgarath In-Reply-To: <20010817.095920.-195381.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9ljbph+707k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24377 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > Actually, I don't like the Gandalf -Dumbledore comparison at all. > Personally, I don't like Gandalf. He's aloof and condescending. He > doesn't tell his heroes everything, which I hate. And Dumbledore does? If Dumbledore was so approachable, why did Harry fear to send him an owl in GoF ch2? Dumbledore has his public persona, and his private persona. He publically seems like a mildly dingy old man. "Mad yes, but still a genius!", I believe Percy said. Privately, he is far less open. Take the Mirror of Erised scene. How much does Dumbledore really tell Harry beyond the basics of how the mirror works and a warning of its dangers? As to telling his heroes everything, we just had a big thread speculating why Dumbledore kicked McGonagall and Madam Pomfrey out of the room before revealing Sirius to Snape. What about "The Gleam?" No, Gandalf doesn't go around telling everything to everybody, but neither does Dumbledore. It is too dangerous. "Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves." (JRRK - TTT) "The Truth is a terrible and dangerous thing, and must be treated with respect." (or something like that) (JKR -- SS) >Don't yell at me, > everyone. It's just an opinion. I love Tolkein, and like a lot of people > on this listserve (I bet) I practically memorized The Lord of the Rings > when I was preadolescent. > The most refreshing thing about HP is that it is not another copy of > Tolkein. That's been done so many times, with varying degrees of success. > Let's just all admit that Tolkein was Tolkein and no one else is, though > there are other good authors. I like the way JKR can break away from > those traditions so easily and create something recognizable, yet new. > Robyn I can only say, Right on! :) Marcus From deeblite at home.com Fri Aug 17 15:06:39 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:06:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Typos In-Reply-To: <9lh6af+vgpd@eGroups.com> References: <9ld76a+mkg8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010817110512.02b62080@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24378 At 07:18 PM 8/16/01 +0000, you wrote: >Right. "wasn't exactly" means it wasn't really hard to miss her. >You couldn't miss her if you tried, even. Those 2 statements are contradictory. If she WASN'T hard to miss, that means she was EASY to miss. >In this case, because of the sarcastic tone, the emphasis was that >she was NOT hard to miss because she was huge. > >I think it was meant as a smirky comment. But yes, it is confusing. Extremely.. -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 15:11:06 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:11:06 -0000 Subject: Muggle and magic worlds In-Reply-To: <9lhq6m+hsgp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ljc6a+101u2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24379 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote: > If the British Prime Minister agreed to help with the hunt for Sirius > what, as a politician and administrator, did he demand in return? > Help with espionage? Charms to convince voters? That toothy grin of > his? Why would the British Prime Minister want payback? It is in his interests as well as the Magical Community's interests that Sirius is captured - as far as he knows, Sirius is a danger to Muggles as well as Witches and Wizards, so he would want the situation resolved as quickly as possible. Also, it is mentioned in GoF that the Death Eaters tortured and killed many Muggles for fun, and presumably the PM was told that Sirius Black was allegedly a Death Eater (at least a supporter of Voldemort) and as such was probably responsible for many Muggle deaths. Therefore, the PM would not want this to spill over into the Muggle world. Containment would be very important to him. Catherine (BTW, when these events took place, it was John Major, not Tony Blair who was PM - I assume you are referring to the latter when you mention the "toothy grin.") From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 15:12:02 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:12:02 -0000 Subject: Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <9lj7v5+aj4b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ljc82+i0li@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24380 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., leigh_brady at y... wrote: > Hi everyone, > I am new to this list, and have been lurking, but a question has > occurred to me that I thought I would ask. Does anyone know who the > head of the Ravenclaw House is? I know that the heads of the other > Houses are mentioned, but I don't remember that one being mentioned. > > Thanks! > Leigh Rowling has revealed it to be Prof Flitwick. These questions, and a lot more that I never realized existed are answered in the FAQ and the Lexicon. Have fun, and welcome aboard. :) Marcus. From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 15:06:44 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:06:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Answers Re: Sirius Black/Dementors/Marauder's Map/Pettigrew vs. Lucius/ Message-ID: <20010817.110647.-195381.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24381 > Who's more evil, Pettigrew or Lucius: IMO, definitely Lucius. > Pettigrew > is a bumbling idiot who does his master's budding out of fear and > dimness. Lucius is bright, cunning, calculated and menacing. > Pettigrew > never appeares menacing and fear-provoking. He is just timidly doing > what > Voldie demands of him, not out of his own accord. But I guess we > will > have to wait and see what book 5 holds for him. (Do you think we'll > all > be bored of HP by next July? This waiting period is quite awful. > Will 10 > billion copies at first printing be suffiicent? I have a feeling I > will > not be able to get my hands on a copy until the second printing, > several > months later... Whew.) Who's more evil? In a lot of ways, to me, Pettigrew, because he betrayed a trust, set up by a friend who did him only good. He is also acting out of extreme selfishness, which seems to be the essence of evil (I'm a Mercedes Lackey fan, and her definition is workable for me) Good is selflessness, a giving up of self for others. Evil is the opposite. Pettigrew is evil. Malfoy, to me, is just a sadistic bigot. He's evil in the sense that part of his sophisticated pleasure comes from oppressing others. But he did not betray any trust. His evil is like fine wine, something he enjoys. BTW, I know we've been playing with the idea of Snape as a vampire, but what about the Malfoys? If this has been raised, sorry. Will we be bored of Harry? NEVER. It's been a while since GoF was out, and everyone on this list is still going strong. But you raise an important point - does anyone have any tips on securing a copy of #5 from the first printing? I've noticed on Amazon that you can't request and reserve it. I'd appreciate any tips. Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vderark at bccs.org Fri Aug 17 15:19:04 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:19:04 -0000 Subject: Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <9lj7v5+aj4b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ljcl8+6gml@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24382 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., leigh_brady at y... wrote: > Hi everyone, > I am new to this list, and have been lurking, but a question has > occurred to me that I thought I would ask. Does anyone know who the > head of the Ravenclaw House is? I know that the heads of the other > Houses are mentioned, but I don't remember that one being mentioned. > > Thanks! > Leigh This is a perfect example of the kind of question that can be answered by checking the Harry Potter Lexicon. If you go there and search for Ravenclaw, you'll find this page: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ravenclaw.html There is nicely gives the answer you're looking for. The head of Ravenclaw is Flitwick. Just FYI, if you click on Flitwick, you'll find yourself at this page: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/flitwick.html There you'll discover a beautiful piece of fan art of the good professor along with a lot of information. Included in there is this reference: House: head of Ravenclaw (BN) That little BN at the end tells you that this information comes from the Barnes and Noble.com interview with JKR. So head over to the Lexicon and browse to your heart's content. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From linman6868 at aol.com Fri Aug 17 15:27:36 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:27:36 -0000 Subject: Answers Re: Sirius Black/Dementors/Marauder's Map/Pettigrew vs. Lucius/ In-Reply-To: <20010817.110647.-195381.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9ljd58+500b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24383 Hello, Robyn! Welcome to the list! > His [D. Malfoy's] evil is like fine wine, something he enjoys. Shades of "Screwtape Proposes a Toast", anyone? I can just see Lucius proposing a toast to the Death Eaters with a glass of distilled outraged essence of some poor human being in his hand. Eurgh. > BTW, I know we've been playing with the idea of Snape as a vampire, but > what about the Malfoys? If this has been raised, sorry. Well, I raised it a month or so ago, but didn't get many takers. I based my speculation on THE SILVER KISS and its descriptions of Christopher the six-year-old blond vampire with a *really* evil disposition. It's not my *pet* theory, but I don't think all those descriptions of Malfoy paleness are for nothing -- we just don't know what it signifies yet. It could be merely a reference to Aryanism, but I don't think so myself. Lisa I. From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 15:20:56 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:20:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More Old Hat & Dumbledore/Belgarath Message-ID: <20010817.112059.-195381.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24384 (snip) >> > Personally, I don't like Gandalf. He's aloof and condescending. He > > doesn't tell his heroes everything, which I hate. > And Dumbledore does? If Dumbledore was so approachable, why did > Harry > fear to send him an owl in GoF ch2? Harry's a first year student. Of course he's not going to just send an owl casually to Dumbledore. In a British boarding school, class distinctions like that are very important, and Harry would never be so presumptuous. It's just not done. I went to a private parochial school, and we loved and were in awe of our prinicipal. I would not have given her a casual call. Even if I had a problem, I'd work a lot on it myself before going to her. It's respect. Harry just didn't want to look like an idiot in front of someone he loves and admires. Remember, he wrote a letter in his head and thought it sounded "ridiculous" and so he didn't send one. (snip)> No, Gandalf doesn't go around telling everything to everybody, but > neither does Dumbledore. It is too dangerous. "Perilous to us all > are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves." (JRRK > - > TTT) "The Truth is a terrible and dangerous thing, and must be > treated > with respect." (or something like that) (JKR -- SS) As far as the truth that goes, Dumledore agrees to tell Harry as much of it as he possibly can and we, IMHO, believe him. I wouldn't believe Gandalf if he said something similar. His purposes are too alien, he's not of Middle Earth and his idea of "truth" and mine may not be the same. Isn't there a famous version of Merlin that's like Dumbledore? Genial, absent minded but with a "gleam"? IMHO, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Merlins are probably the most realistic. But there is a genial, bumbling Merlin out there. Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 16:15:07 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:15:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Answers Re: Sirius Black/Dementors/Marauder's Map/Pettigrew vs. Lucius/ Message-ID: <20010817.121748.-137953.1.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24385 Thanks for the welcome. I agree with you. Malfoy as both Aryan and vampire makes sense to me. There have definitely been fantasy fiction books having blond, handsome Aryans be using blood magic (magyck? this type of fantasy is not my favorite) to raise power, or just to enjoy. Mr. Nott says, "there are things in your manor, Malfoy, which are far worse" (inexact quote) I bet there are a lot of secrets there, which would explain the persistent wealth and Malfoy's slippery way of staying out of Azkaban. He manages to be too "eternal" - always wealthy and powerful no matter which way the winds are blowing - something's fishy here. Robyn On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:27:36 -0000 linman6868 at aol.com writes: > Hello, Robyn! Welcome to the list! > > > His [D. Malfoy's] evil is like fine wine, something he enjoys. > > Shades of "Screwtape Proposes a Toast", anyone? I can just see > Lucius proposing a toast to the Death Eaters with a glass of > distilled outraged essence of some poor human being in his hand. > Eurgh. > > > BTW, I know we've been playing with the idea of Snape as a > vampire, > but > > what about the Malfoys? If this has been raised, sorry. > > Well, I raised it a month or so ago, but didn't get many takers. I > based my speculation on THE SILVER KISS and its descriptions of > Christopher the six-year-old blond vampire with a *really* evil > disposition. It's not my *pet* theory, but I don't think all those > descriptions of Malfoy paleness are for nothing -- we just don't > know > what it signifies yet. It could be merely a reference to Aryanism, > but I don't think so myself. > > Lisa I. > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 17:17:38 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:17:38 -0000 Subject: Loony Loopy Lupin (Re: Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: <00da01c1272c$3acf6840$a473f2d1@lisaannc> Message-ID: <9ljjji+jbvc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24386 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" wrote: > .....was so far deep into the need to kill Peter that he did not realize what he was doing to Harry but he did stop himself from hurting him.... (Hey all! It's me -- look at these new people! ANd I've only been off for a few weeks) Personally, I can completely understand Sirius's reactions. I think he says, after Hermione asked him how he escaped, that he's been brooding on Peter these long years and THAT'S what helped him keep his powers -- it wasn't a pleasent thought and so the Dementors couldn't suck it out of him. Maybe he had his sanity, but, thinking about revenge all that time gives you a slightly one track mind. It's Lupin's unhingedness in the Shierking Shack that always shocks me. He gets a little snippy, you know, with the kids, and THEN, he's ready to roll up his sleaves and murder Peter too. Granted, he's under a LOT of stress, finding out Peter is alive, the possibility that Sirius is innocent, he's worried about Harry. Plus, it's the full moon that night, stress likely isn't good for his condition. But, you would think that calm, loving Lupin would stop and think, "Hang on, if we turn Peter in, Sirius is free..." Insted, he's ready to commit murder (not that I'm defending the Rat, you understand), but turning him in is the smart thing to do. Maybe he's not thinking too clear either, it being his time of the month and all. Stephanie From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 17:27:55 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:27:55 -0000 Subject: Gandalf and Dumbledore 9(WAS: More Old Hat...) In-Reply-To: <20010817.112059.-195381.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9ljk6r+m6ai@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24387 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > And Dumbledore does? If Dumbledore was so approachable, why did > > Harry > > fear to send him an owl in GoF ch2? > > Harry's a first year student. *ahem*. In Chapter two of GoF, Harry is about to start his fourth year. >Of course he's not going to just send an > owl casually to Dumbledore. In a British boarding school, class > distinctions like that are very important, and Harry would never be so > presumptuous. It's just not done. I went to a private parochial school, > and we loved and were in awe of our prinicipal. I would not have given > her a casual call. Even if I had a problem, I'd work a lot on it myself > before going to her. It's respect. Harry just didn't want to look like an > idiot in front of someone he loves and admires. Remember, he wrote a > letter in his head and thought it sounded "ridiculous" and so he didn't > send one. So why is Gandalf being held to a different standard? > As far as the truth that goes, Dumledore agrees to tell Harry as much of > it as he possibly can and we, IMHO, believe him. I wouldn't believe > Gandalf if he said something similar. His purposes are too alien, he's > not of Middle Earth and his idea of "truth" and mine may not be the same. I can't think of any instance where once could seriously fault Gandalf for not revealing enough. Can you? Would it be that hard to match them with similar instances on the part of Dumbledore? I doubt it. I like and respect both men. They both have very weighty matters pressing on their heads. They both have to deal with fools in high places. They both are just a little mysterious. They both are reticent in talking about themselves and their business and tend to divert interest in themselves. They both put on an air of harmlessness, but they both are revealed to be creatures of great power when the need arises. And in spite of all their simularities, they are still two distinct individuals with different personalities. One would never confuse the two. They are what they are. Marcus From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 17:30:26 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:30:26 -0000 Subject: Robes (silly question) Message-ID: <9ljkbi+q4r8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24388 Okay, so I'm rolling the cat hair off my husband's academic robes a few minutes ago (hopefully, I'll get a photo of him in his robes at opening convocation, he's got crazy black hair and round glasses, people STARE, I'll post it here, it's too funny) and I think, "Now are these the kind of robes wizards wear?" Are they long and full to the ground? Do they wear other clothes under them? Are they open or closed in the front? I remember someone at the Quiddich WC wearing a nightgown b/c he likes to be, er, "free" -- but I also remember Lupin sticking his wand in his belt (NO JOKES about my remembering anything having to do with Lupin's belt area), which suggests pants. What do they look like in the movie -- I just haven't checked. Stephanie From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Aug 17 17:43:09 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:43:09 -0000 Subject: Filch - AD and GtheG - Dragon lingo - Fudge In-Reply-To: <9lj1m4+2m5o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ljl3d+s4dd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24389 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > > In which case, I will borrow a concept from another series - David > > Eddings Belgariad, where the sorceress Polgara speaks the language > of the > > birds but realizes they really don't have much to say. > > Arthur discovers the same in Hitchhiker's Guide. > > As does the protogonist Malcolm Fisher in Tom Holt's Expecting Someone Taller (which brings Wagner's Ring of the Niebelung tetraloguy up-to-date). Uninteresting bird talk seems to be a consensus of fantasy & sci-fi writers! - CMC (veering dangerously OT) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From leigh_brady at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 18:07:36 2001 From: leigh_brady at yahoo.com (leigh_brady at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:07:36 -0000 Subject: Loony Loopy Lupin (Re: Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: <9ljjji+jbvc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ljmh8+jfik@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24390 > It's Lupin's unhingedness in the Shierking Shack that always shocks > me. He gets a little snippy, you know, with the kids, and THEN, he's > ready to roll up his sleaves and murder Peter too. Granted, he's > under a LOT of stress, finding out Peter is alive, the possibility > that Sirius is innocent, he's worried about Harry. Plus, it's the > full moon that night, stress likely isn't good for his condition. > But, you would think that calm, loving Lupin would stop and > think, "Hang on, if we turn Peter in, Sirius is free..." Insted, > he's ready to commit murder (not that I'm defending the Rat, you > understand), but turning him in is the smart thing to do. Maybe he's > not thinking too clear either, it being his time of the month and all. > > Stephanie Lupin's reaction took me by suprise also. He struck me as a guy who would think out all his possible options before acting. However, I chalked up his reaction to the stress of finding out the Sirus was innocent, Peter was alive, and that Peter had betrayed Lily and James. That's a lot of information to take in. Maybe, like Sirus, he just lost it for a minute, and was acting on pure emotion. Plus I don't think that Snape barging in added to his general well-being. Leigh From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Aug 17 18:10:37 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:10:37 -0000 Subject: Gandalf and Dumbledore 9(WAS: More Old Hat...) In-Reply-To: <9ljk6r+m6ai@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ljmmt+nuaq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24391 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > As far as the truth that goes, Dumledore agrees to tell Harry > as much of > > it as he possibly can and we, IMHO, believe him. I wouldn't believe > > Gandalf if he said something similar. His purposes are too alien, > he's > > not of Middle Earth and his idea of "truth" and mine may not be the > same. > > I can't think of any instance where once could seriously fault Gandalf > for not revealing enough. Can you? Not to be nitpicky, but the whole premise of the Hobbit is that Gandalf presses Bilbo into a trip without giving Bilbo ANY notice and hardly any informationabout what dangers Bilbo will be facing. > And in spite of all their simularities, they are still two distinct > individuals with different personalities. One would never confuse > the two. They are what they are. > I could not agree more. 4FR Admiring From mindyatime at juno.com Fri Aug 17 18:15:03 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:15:03 -0400 Subject: Puzzling Question Message-ID: <20010817.143217.-392849.6.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24392 If, indeed, the Wizards live interspersed throughout England, among the Muggles, doesnt it get kind of lonely? Or are they several spates of several Wizarding families living in one neighborhood, where they can get together? The Leaky Cauldron and Diagon Alley are in faraway London; where do the Weasleys, for instance, do their shopping? Apparate over to London every few days? Order by Wizarding Catalogues? IF they have no phone, isn't Molly utterly lonely during the day, doing her housework without company? I can't do my housework without talking on the phone inthe meantime -- it's verrrry lonely. From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 18:52:43 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 02:52:43 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes (silly question) References: <9ljkbi+q4r8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007201c1274d$cd4068c0$4d06bacb@hal9000> No: HPFGUIDX 24393 Hello, Talking about robes... I was re-reading GoF and discovered a line where one of the older wizards was mention how he likes a "healthy breeze on [his] privates." Which means that in the olden days, wizards/witches apparently *don't* wear clothing under their robes. Dunno about underwear or what they'd consider underwear, though. The younger generation seems fine with wear Muggle clothing under robes (or even without robes, occasionally, I bet), i.e., Ron's maroon jumpers/sweaters. little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 18:46:26 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:46:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Puzzling Question Message-ID: <20010817.144629.-137953.4.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24394 > If, indeed, the Wizards live interspersed throughout England, among > the > If wizard live interspesed with Muggles, doesnt it get kind of lonely? Or are they several spates of > several Wizarding families living in one neighborhood, where they > can get > together? The Leaky Cauldron and Diagon Alley are in faraway London; > where do the Weasleys, for instance, do their shopping? Apparate > over to > London every few days? Order by Wizarding Catalogues? IF they have > no > phone, isn't Molly utterly lonely during the day, doing her > housework > without company? I can't do my housework without talking on the > phone > inthe meantime -- it's verrrry lonely. Yes, they can just Apparate any time they want to over to a friend. I'm sure there's a magical communication means - like the fire. There's also the WWN to get entertainment from. And I bet Molly's housework isn't too onerous - she does have that wand to help out. Which leads me to another question - Molly's kids are out of the house, she's a Hogwarts graduate who was in Gryffindor, so we can assume she's intelligent and competent - why doesn't she get a job? It seems like all the working women in the Potterverse are single. (McGonagall, Rita Skeeter - who'd live with her? Prof. Trelawney, Prof. Sprout, Berth Jorkins - who did not have a husband or kids to initiate a search for her.) Can anyone help me out here? Another question - is there a distance limit on Apparating? (please forgive me if it's been discussed or is in the lexicon. I don't have Web access at this time.) From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 18:39:22 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:39:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Filch - AD and GtheG - Dragon lingo - Fudge Message-ID: <20010817.144628.-137953.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24395 It was me (Robyn) who wrote that. Umm, hence the term birdbrain? So is there consensus here- the HH just isn't too bright? Robyn, who goes OT to find more intellectual dragons. > > > > > In which case, I will borrow a concept from another series - > David > > > Eddings Belgariad, where the sorceress Polgara speaks the > language > > of the > > > birds but realizes they really don't have much to say. > > > > Arthur discovers the same in Hitchhiker's Guide. > > > > As does the protogonist Malcolm Fisher in Tom Holt's Expecting > Someone Taller (which brings Wagner's Ring of the Niebelung > tetraloguy up-to-date). Uninteresting bird talk seems to be a > consensus of fantasy & sci-fi writers! > > - CMC (veering dangerously OT) > > HARRY POTTER FILKS > http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 18:36:18 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:36:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gandalf and Dumbledore 9(WAS: More Old Hat...) Message-ID: <20010817.144628.-137953.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24396 I agree with both of you. I'll stop Gandalf - bashing. ( Still don't like him, though.) Robyn On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:10:37 -0000 fourfuries at aol.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > > As far as the truth that goes, Dumledore agrees to tell Harry > > as much of > > > it as he possibly can and we, IMHO, believe him. I wouldn't > believe > > > Gandalf if he said something similar. His purposes are too > alien, > > he's > > > not of Middle Earth and his idea of "truth" and mine may not be > the > > same. > > > > I can't think of any instance where once could seriously fault > Gandalf > > for not revealing enough. Can you? > > Not to be nitpicky, but the whole premise of the Hobbit is that > Gandalf presses Bilbo into a trip without giving Bilbo ANY notice > and > hardly any informationabout what dangers Bilbo will be facing. > > > > And in spite of all their simularities, they are still two > distinct > > individuals with different personalities. One would never confuse > > > the two. They are what they are. > > > I could not agree more. > > 4FR Admiring > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 18:50:36 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:50:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes (silly question) Message-ID: <20010817.145038.-137953.5.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24397 I'm also picturing academic ones. And the robes at my university are a particularly ridiculous color, so I can even think about Gladrags Wizardwear. I bet Lupin has a belted robe - he doesn't strike me as too fastidious about his appearance, so even if belts aren't quite fashionable, he'd wear one if it was comfortable for him. Robyn On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:30:26 -0000 "Stephanie Roark Keener" writes: > Okay, so I'm rolling the cat hair off my husband's academic robes a > few minutes ago (hopefully, I'll get a photo of him in his robes at > opening convocation, he's got crazy black hair and round glasses, > people STARE, I'll post it here, it's too funny) and I think, "Now > are these the kind of robes wizards wear?" Are they long and full > to > the ground? Do they wear other clothes under them? Are they open > or > closed in the front? I remember someone at the Quiddich WC wearing > a > nightgown b/c he likes to be, er, "free" -- but I also remember > Lupin > sticking his wand in his belt (NO JOKES about my remembering > anything > having to do with Lupin's belt area), which suggests pants. What do > they look like in the movie -- I just haven't checked. > Stephanie > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 18:59:06 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:59:06 -0000 Subject: Gandalf and Dumbledore 9(WAS: More Old Hat...) In-Reply-To: <9ljmmt+nuaq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ljphq+v1kg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24398 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > Not to be nitpicky, but the whole premise of the Hobbit is that > Gandalf presses Bilbo into a trip without giving Bilbo ANY notice and > hardly any informationabout what dangers Bilbo will be facing. > By all means, pick all the nits you want. :) What about in PS/SS when Dumbledore doesn't provide Harry any information on the dangers and problems he'll face in getting to the stone? He only arranges for him to see and understand the mirror. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 19:09:18 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 19:09:18 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <20010817.144629.-137953.4.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9ljq4u+bj0m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24399 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > Yes, they can just Apparate any time they want to over to a friend. I'm > sure there's a magical communication means - like the fire. There's also > the WWN to get entertainment from. And I bet Molly's housework isn't too > onerous - she does have that wand to help out. > Which leads me to another question - Molly's kids are out of the house, > she's a Hogwarts graduate who was in Gryffindor, so we can assume she's > intelligent and competent - why doesn't she get a job? It seems like all > the working women in the Potterverse are single. (McGonagall, Rita > Skeeter - who'd live with her? Prof. Trelawney, Prof. Sprout, Berth > Jorkins - who did not have a husband or kids to initiate a search for > her.) Can anyone help me out here? We really don't know much about her. She might have her own business out of her home. She might be doing volunteer work. She might prefer decorating her home or working in the garden. She does enjoy knitting. It takes time to knit all those Christmas sweaters, you know. Marcus From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 19:38:47 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:38:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Puzzling Question Message-ID: <20010817.153851.-137953.7.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24400 Robyn wrote > > Which leads me to another question - Molly's kids are out of the > house, > > she's a Hogwarts graduate who was in Gryffindor, so we can assume > she's > > intelligent and competent - why doesn't she get a job? It seems > like > all > > the working women in the Potterverse are single. (McGonagall, Rita > > Skeeter - who'd live with her? Prof. Trelawney, Prof. Sprout, > Berth > > Jorkins - who did not have a husband or kids to initiate a search > for > > her.) Can anyone help me out here? > > We really don't know much about her. She might have her own > business > out of her home. She might be doing volunteer work. She might > prefer > decorating her home or working in the garden. She does enjoy > knitting. It takes time to knit all those Christmas sweaters, you > know. > > Marcus Well, we do know that it bothers Molly - I think a lot - when she has to give her children the less preferable merchandise - remember how she blows up at Ron in GoF when he complains about his frilly, moldy dress robes - She clearly felt bad about it. Ginny's also growing up, and is going to need some frills. I like Molly, she's one of my favorite characters. But I do wonder why she isn't employed. It also seems like her financial situation is a source of worry to her - in GoF she is concerned that the Floo Powder is running out, and looks anxiously at Arthur. Also, they don't buy Ron a new wand right away - until his own is snapped and dangerous. Even then , they wait till they win some money. You'd think a conscientious mom like Molly, even if she's not on top of luxuries, would definitely be very concerned about affording the best possible educational tools for her children. It's clear she values education. Do you have any answer for me about the larger question - why aren't there any working moms in the Potterverse? After all, JKR is and was a working mom. (although her job is ideal in terms of time flexibility.) Is JKR saying something about her own attitudes? Anyone have any hypotheses about Molly in general? I wish we knew more about her. Robyn Oh, BTW - I'm not bashing housewives. Been there, done that. It's the most noble work in the universe (along with Headmastering) But, all her kids are grown and out of the house. Mindy has a point, even with Apparition and the WWN, she's got to be kind of bored. Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From profusepersiflage at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 19:50:58 2001 From: profusepersiflage at yahoo.com (Jess heart) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <9lj7v5+aj4b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010817195058.28411.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24401 Hello, the Head of the Ravenclaw house is Professor Flitwick. :) -Persi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Aug 17 20:06:09 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:06:09 -0000 Subject: Gandalf and Dumbledore 9(WAS: More Old Hat...) In-Reply-To: <9ljphq+v1kg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ljtfh+sg38@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24402 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > > Not to be nitpicky, but the whole premise of the Hobbit is that > > Gandalf presses Bilbo into a trip without giving Bilbo ANY notice > and > > hardly any informationabout what dangers Bilbo will be facing. > > > > By all means, pick all the nits you want. :) > > What about in PS/SS when Dumbledore doesn't provide Harry any > information on the dangers and problems he'll face in getting to the > stone? He only arranges for him to see and understand the mirror. > > Marcus You continue to be brilliant. Of course, Dumbledore doesn't exactly tell HP to go looking for the stone, now does he? Dumbledore is definitely secretive, probably manipulative, and possibly willing to sacrifice all to defeat Voldy. But as you and Robin have said, c'est le guerre, n'est pas? 4FR From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 17 20:11:11 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:11:11 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <20010817.153851.-137953.7.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9ljtov+til6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24403 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > Robyn wrote > > > Which leads me to another question - Molly's kids are out of the > > house, > > > she's a Hogwarts graduate who was in Gryffindor, so we can assume > > she's > > > intelligent and competent - why doesn't she get a job? How do we know she hasn't got a job? She might teach in one of the wizarding primary schools we've speculated about or have some other part-time work that lets her take the summers off. Believe you me, with four teenagers at home including the notorious Gred and Forge, I wouldn't want to leave them on their own too long...the house wouldn't be standing when I got back. Pippin From profusepersiflage at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 20:24:44 2001 From: profusepersiflage at yahoo.com (Jess heart) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes (silly question) In-Reply-To: <007201c1274d$cd4068c0$4d06bacb@hal9000> Message-ID: <20010817202444.35875.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24404 --- "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > Talking about robes... I was re-reading GoF and > discovered a line where one > of the older wizards was mention how he likes a > "healthy breeze on [his] > privates." Which means that in the olden days, > wizards/witches apparently > *don't* wear clothing under their robes. I'm not so sure that old Archie is an accurate representation of any kind of wizard "norm". Just because HE likes a healthy breeze around his privates privates doesn't necessarily mean that most wizards do. Although many wizards at the World Cup seemed to have trouble dressing as muggles he was the only one with that particular complaint. It could be that he was the only one brave (or blunt) enough to voice a wide-spread discomfort, but I think that J.K.R. is rather fond of the occasional eccentric. (Remember Dumbledore's brother and the incident with the goat...) -Persi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 20:40:45 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:40:45 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <20010817.153851.-137953.7.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9ljvgd+i7pn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24405 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > Do you have any answer for me about the larger question - why aren't > there any working moms in the Potterverse? After all, JKR is and was a > working mom. (although her job is ideal in terms of time flexibility.) Is > JKR saying something about her own attitudes? > Robyn Do we know any successful Wizard in the Potterverse that is married? We have met the parents of several Hogwarts students, but we are unaware of the parental or marriage status of any of the Hogwarts staff or the Minister of Magic. The stories are told from Harry's POV. The only facts that we learn have something to do with the story. Anything else is limited. Rowling learned that from Jane Austen. > Oh, BTW - I'm not bashing housewives. Been there, done that. It's the > most noble work in the universe (along with Headmastering) But, all her > kids are grown and out of the house. Mindy has a point, even with > Apparition and the WWN, she's got to be kind of bored. > > Robyn I perfer the term "Homemaker" myself, but the point is well taken. We still really don't know what Molly does except for knit sweaters. We only see her at home when Harry is there for a few weeks of Summer Vacation. Marcus From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 20:58:06 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:58:06 -0000 Subject: DADA teachers/the next one.... In-Reply-To: <9lfaef+kl2i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lk0gu+fieh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24406 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > I will add a (3), that I had proposed a couple months back--that > Snape > > may actually want the position, but either doesn't apply or is not > > placed there by Dumbledore, for his own protection. > What a great thought!! Esp. since Snape wasn't exactly keen on his Dark Mark reappearing. And since Boggarts can shift into any other form they choose, I'm sure other nasties can do the same. And Dumbledore would want to protect Snape (and the students!) from that kind of danger. > Good one! On a slightly different note, rumor has it that there will > be a female DADA teacher in book 5. How about Arabella Figg? > Bente Ooh - now THAT's an interesting idea - I too would like to see Harry look at Mrs. Figg with new eyes. I'd like to see Mrs. Figg and Mrs. Longbottom (Neville's Grandmother) in active roles. I'm so intrigued with the whole "old crowd" comment in GoF.... From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 21:05:50 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:05:50 -0000 Subject: Gandalf and Dumbledore 9(WAS: More Old Hat...) In-Reply-To: <9ljtfh+sg38@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lk0ve+t7lp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24407 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > You continue to be brilliant. > 4FR "It's a good thing it's dark. I haven't blushed this much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." (The best I can do from memory.) :) I rather suspect that Dumbledore and Gandalf would understand each other perfectly and have no problem with the way the other handles their affairs. I am sure that they would both be rather amused by our discussion and would attempt to steer it away from themselves like Dumbledore did with the above earmuff comment. Marcus From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 17 21:06:21 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:06:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Puzzling Question Message-ID: <20010817.170625.-137953.8.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24408 prefect Marcus said: > Do we know any successful Wizard in the Potterverse that is married? > > We have met the parents of several Hogwarts students, but we are > unaware of the parental or marriage status of any of the Hogwarts > staff or the Minister of Magic. > I don't know - I think we would know about more about people's lives. If McGonagall was married, for example, one of the other students would probably tell Harry about it when he asked about her. That seems very British to me - single, highly professional teachers. If Molly had a job, wouldn't we hear something about it? She'd be a little like Lucy (I Love Lucy) don' t you think? Marketing hair care potions that didn't quite pan out, starting a resteraunt that might not be such a success? There's such potential for funny scenes, "Sorry, Harry, my mom's doing her health food store. Instead of a chocolate Easter egg, here's what we got." said Ron, holding an object that looked suspiciously like a bird's nest. "And it's got a Compello spell on it, so we have to eat it." Sometimes Harry was jealous of Ron and his wonderful family, but this wasn't one of those times....... Molly's very likely to let us all know exactly what she thinks, and to contribute her professional expertise to whatever is at hand. The fact that she doesn't makes me think she doesn't have any professional expertise. > The stories are told from Harry's POV. The only facts that we learn > have something to do with the story. Anything else is limited. > Rowling learned that from Jane Austen. Yes, but Jane was writing a comedy of manners. The characterizations are excellent, but there really is not much plot. Nothing happens. When you teach creative writing, you definitely don't assign Austen so that students can learn about plot construction. JKR's stories are very action driven, and that usually compels a certain amount of detail, because the action needs "space" in which to be woven. I think if JKR doesn't say Molly's profession, it's because she doesn't have one. And I do think she's saying something about her own attitudes. At the very least, that professional and private lives should be quite seperate. The only other option is that her job, set by Dumbledore, is something to do with protecting Harry- that she's his foster mother and guadian wizard, and it's her job to monitor his safety. Was it such an accident that Harry met the Weasleys, of all people, when he didn't know how to get on the platform? Maybe Molly's surprise at George and Fred's assertion that he is Harry Potter is not entirely genuine. Robyn, who would love to be invited to the Burrow for a cup of tea and wishes she could swap recipes with Molly Weasley. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 21:30:32 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:30:32 -0000 Subject: universities/WizWorld structure/Guilds In-Reply-To: <009401c1265f$e14db780$4d06bacb@hal9000> Message-ID: <9lk2do+e24i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24409 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > What about guilds? How do they work? Would it be possible for > wizards/witches who want jobs that need further training to go into guilds as we know them? > > little Alex Good thought, little Alex! Guilds could very well be the way Wizards go - what with all the various Orders & such that certain characters hold. Instead of pulling out my extremely rusty history knowledge, I figured I'd go to a better source: http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wcl/lectures/24guilds.html (with a big thanks to the prof who posted it!!!) Seems that the whole instructional system/protection of commerce vibe could be the way to go. And it would tie in nicely with Steve's earlier postings of a Medieval model in the cannon. I figure that during the 11th & 12th centuries, while Muggles were guilding all over the place, so were the Wizards. From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 21:36:13 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:36:13 -0000 Subject: universities/WizWorld structure/Guilds In-Reply-To: <9lk2do+e24i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lk2od+70tr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24410 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > > > > What about guilds? How do they work? Would it be possible for > > wizards/witches who want jobs that need further training to go into > guilds as we know them? > > > > little Alex > > Oops - I meant: http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/24guilds.html From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 17 21:38:49 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:38:49 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <9ljvgd+i7pn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lk2t9+m1kv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24411 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > Do we know any successful Wizard in the Potterverse that is married? > We have met the parents of several Hogwarts students, but we are > unaware of the parental or marriage status of any of the Hogwarts > staff or the Minister of Magic. We know that Lucius Malfoy is married, and he's certainly a successful wizard and quite respectable, though he doesn't deserve to be. And according to what Crouch Sr. said in GoF, Minister Fudge is married, or was at one time... "Thank you, Weatherby, and when you have done that, I would like a cup of tea. My wife and son will be arriving shortly, we are attending a concert tonight with Mr. and Mrs. Fudge." GoF ch.28 From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 22:09:43 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:09:43 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <9lk2t9+m1kv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lk4n7+tcdu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24412 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > > Do we know any successful Wizard in the Potterverse that is married? > > We have met the parents of several Hogwarts students, but we are > > unaware of the parental or marriage status of any of the Hogwarts > > staff or the Minister of Magic. > > We know that Lucius Malfoy is married, and he's certainly a > successful wizard and quite respectable, though he doesn't deserve to > be. And according to what Crouch Sr. said in GoF, Minister Fudge is > married, or was at one time... > "Thank you, Weatherby, and when you have done that, I would like a > cup of tea. My wife and son will be arriving shortly, we are attending > a concert tonight with Mr. and Mrs. Fudge." GoF ch.28 Good catch with Fudge!! However, I lump the Malfoys in with parents of students. I still say it's dangerous to assume marital or employment status of anyone unless specifically stated, especially with a writer as tricky as JKR. You'll liable to get side-swiped! :) Marcus From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 17 22:50:13 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:50:13 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <20010817.170625.-137953.8.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lk735+qkeq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24413 > The only other option is that her job, set by Dumbledore, is something > to do with protecting Harry- that she's his foster mother and guadian > wizard, and it's her job to monitor his safety. Was it such an accident > that Harry met the Weasleys, of all people, when he didn't know how to > get on the platform? Maybe Molly's surprise at George and Fred's > assertion that he is Harry Potter is not entirely genuine. > > Robyn I prefer to think that Molly Weasley cares for Harry because she likes kids; that's why she has seven of her own. The person given the job of protecting Harry (in my never to be humble opinion) is Arabella Figg. It's surely no coincidence that she has taken care of him every time the Dursleys have had something fun to do. It is implied that there are protections in place around 4 Privet Drive, and in addition to charms (Fidelius and otherwise), I'm sure Arabella has something to do with it. I can't wait until Harry figures out that all the time he spent in her cabbage smelling living room looking at pictures of cats, was spent with a witch! Bente From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 23:21:47 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:21:47 -0000 Subject: Jane Austen influences(Was: Puzzling Question) In-Reply-To: <20010817.170625.-137953.8.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lk8ub+onkt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24414 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > Rowling learned that from Jane Austen. > > Yes, but Jane was writing a comedy of manners. The characterizations are > excellent, but there really is not much plot. Nothing happens. When you > teach creative writing, you definitely don't assign Austen so that > students can learn about plot construction. > Robyn I beg your pardon. Just because you don't have people shooting each other, or overthrowing governments, or saving the world/universe against overwhelming odds does not mean that there isn't much of a plot! I can't think of a better writer to teach plot construction than Jane Austen. Her plots are so intricate and yet so subtle. Anyone can do "the big bow-wow?", as Scott called it, but precious few can handle the delicate stuff. Why not teach from the master? Andrew Davies, who wrote the screenplay for the latest P&P Adaptation stated that her plots were like finely crafted swiss watches. You simply cannot throw anything away and have it work. Another critic, whose name escapes me, stated, "Her work is like a chinese puzzle box. You hold up to the light, shake it, minutely examine it; and yet you still can't figure out how it went together." When I read Joanne Kathleen Rowling, I see the Jane Austen influence through-out her works. The very subtle touches. The refusal to sink to soap-opera melodrama. The gentle satire and the delicate irony. The meticulous plotting. The careful introduction of innocuous details that later become critical. The 3-D characters. Their subtle, but real growth. It's all Austen. It came as no surprise to me when JKR stated on several occasions that Jane Austen is her favorite writer. I remember reading HP for the first time and admiring her Austen-like touches. Mind you, they don't match the master, but her influence is very much there. I kept thinking, this writer has either read Austen or should read Austen. She had taken the best of Austen without being a slave to her. Do not get me wrong. I think Rowling is a master. My point is she's learned from the best. Now she's shining in her own light. Marcus P.S.: I would love to discuss Jane Austen, especially her masterpiece, "Pride and Prejudice"; but not here. It is a bit OT, unfortunately. We've already pushed the limits with our Gandalf discussion. :( From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Aug 18 01:39:22 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:39:22 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew vs. Lucius In-Reply-To: <20010817.105915.-387367.3.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lkh0a+enpv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24415 > Who's more evil, Pettigrew or Lucius: IMO, definitely Lucius. Pettigrew > is a bumbling idiot who does his master's budding out of fear and > dimness. Lucius is bright, cunning, calculated and menacing. Pettigrew > never appeares menacing and fear-provoking. He is just timidly doing what > Voldie demands of him, not out of his own accord. I love these "evil" questions. I think it comes down to an individual's definition of evil. I'd choose Lucius Malfoy as being the more evil of the two because what he does is a conscious choice. And he is in a position in wizard society, due to wealth/influence/ family, to affect other people. He may very well be acting purely in his own self-interest or his wealthy, pure-bred family's self- interest, but he is definitely making choices. Compare him to Snape who has also made choices, and, as it seems, realized that his original choices were wrong. Snape had the internal fortitude to turn in the other direction (Dark to Light) in spite of the risks that choice posed. Maybe now I'm veering into "Who has more courage - Malfoy or Snape?" Sev wins hands down on that choice. So, maybe Peter is less evil because he is not a strong individual and can be threatened or influenced by more powerful people. Peter, I think, is a perfect example of "the banality of evil." He doesn't necessarily want to be evil, he doesn't delight in others' suffering, he doesn't think he is inherently better than other people, he just finds that path easier than fighting against it. His own self- interest is paramount. I thought the scene in the Shrieking Shack very revealing of Peter's character. Once he admits to being V's spy, he grovels for mercy. He begs for his life, but he never once expresses any sorrow or regret at his own actions - for selling out James and Lily, for orphaning Harry, for setting up Sirius for Azkaban, for depriving Remus of his friends' support. Peter is not evil - he's criminally weak. Marianne From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sat Aug 18 01:51:39 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:51:39 -0000 Subject: Talking to Animals (Bravo to Barb) In-Reply-To: <9lgk1u+dvtv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lkhnb+te69@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24416 Barb, I just wanted to thank you. This was on of the most intriguing posts I've read in a long time. It is far more interesting, IMO, to discuss classic archetypes, and moral themes than nitpick over trivialities. Cheers! -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From mspond1 at aol.com Sat Aug 18 02:09:14 2001 From: mspond1 at aol.com (mspond1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 02:09:14 -0000 Subject: Successful married wizards Message-ID: <9lkioa+pbki@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24417 IMO Mr. and Mrs. Weasley are EXTREMELY successful. Success does not equal money. The things that are important in life are plentiful in the Weasley household. I also don't think Molly Weasley should be knocked because she doesn't work outside of the home. She has 7 children. Give her a break. Perhaps she would like to relax for a little while when the kids are gone. I can't imagine having 7 children--even with a wand to help with the work. She seems to have spent a lot of her TIME with her children, which is again, IMO more important that anything else she could have done. Perhaps she does volunteer work. Wasn't there a mention of a hospital for wizards and witches? I could see her as one of those "pink ladies" visiting and comforting other people. Again, success and money are not synonyms. Marilyn From tabouli at unite.com.au Sat Aug 18 02:56:07 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:56:07 +1000 Subject: Politics & parenting, Mrs Figg&Weasley Message-ID: <004f01c12794$6d7df960$5a90aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 24418 Prefect Marcus: > We have met the parents of several Hogwarts students, but we are unaware of the parental or marriage status of any of the Hogwarts staff or the Minister of Magic. Oooo yes we have! Wasn't there a prominent MoM minister with a wife and son called Barty Crouch who was tipped to be the next Minister for Magic? Though what happened there suggests that it might be a good idea not to mix parenting and politics... magpie1112: > > rumor has it that there will > >be a female DADA teacher in book 5. How about Arabella Figg? > Bente > > Ooh - now THAT's an interesting idea - I too would like to see Harry > look at Mrs. Figg with new eyes. Whenever I read about the ol' "Mrs Figg: Potential DADA teacher!" "Mrs Figg: Undisclosed Witch!" etc. stories, I can't help remembering that in the *only* online chat I ever read which mentioned Mrs Figg JKR clearly stated that Mrs Figg is a ***SQUIB***. Hence technically a witch, but probably *not* one likely to become a DADA teacher (unless she's found ways around needing to use magic in her classes), or have powerful magic to protect Harry, etc.etc.. Assuming that she's a Squib, I'd vote that she's one who's given up on trying to function in the sneering wizarding world and has become Muggle-Wizard liaison officer or some such, who keeps an eye on the Muggles and Harry in particular. Hence the wizards at the World Cup copied her house for their tents... she's their source of Muggle lore. Of course, I could be wrong about this, there could have been another chat where JKR said she's a witch, or there could be another Figg (daughter?). Any tips from the well-read? Bente: > I prefer to think that Molly Weasley cares for Harry because she likes kids; that's why she has seven of her own. Wonder if the Weasley's huge family ending at Ginny was partly due to them keeping on going 'til they had a girl? Maybe that's partly why Ron has such a complex (he was "*another* boy, dammit! Let's have one last try!"). Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vderark at bccs.org Sat Aug 18 03:15:35 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:15:35 -0000 Subject: married staff Message-ID: <9lkmkn+3pvf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24419 Hey... I have missed a few messages here and there, so if this has already been brought up, I apologize. This is from the Comic Relief chat: Sheila McCleary - Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? JKR - Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why. We can draw from that not only that some are married (and if we can determine who wasn't at dinner in PA, we may be able to guess who went home to families...), but also that there is some sort of mystery surrounding that fact. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that it's some sort of legacy of the Voldemort era, when the families of Hogwarts staff would be vulnerable and probably singled out for attack. Can anyone think of a more likely reason? Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From vderark at bccs.org Sat Aug 18 03:23:59 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:23:59 -0000 Subject: Politics & parenting, Mrs Figg&Weasley In-Reply-To: <004f01c12794$6d7df960$5a90aecb@price> Message-ID: <9lkn4f+bgf3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24420 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > > Whenever I read about the ol' "Mrs Figg: Potential DADA teacher!" "Mrs Figg: Undisclosed Witch!" etc. stories, I can't help remembering that in the *only* online chat I ever read which mentioned Mrs Figg JKR clearly stated that Mrs Figg is a ***SQUIB***. Please tell me which chat this is. I have every chat I know of on file and I don't see this anywhere. I do have the chat where she specifically stated that Arabella Figg and Mrs. Figg are the same person, and since she's part of the old crowd, it just seems rather unlikely that she's a squib. But like I said, if there's a chat that says so, I would really like to read it and add it to my collection (and add that information to the Lexicon). Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sat Aug 18 04:05:15 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:05:15 -0000 Subject: married staff In-Reply-To: <9lkmkn+3pvf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lkphr+logb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24421 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Hey... > > I have missed a few messages here and there, so if this has already > been brought up, I apologize. > > This is from the Comic Relief chat: > > Sheila McCleary - Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? > JKR - Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort > of restricted - you'll find out why. > > > We can draw from that not only that some are married (and if we can > determine who wasn't at dinner in PA, we may be able to guess who > went home to families...), but also that there is some sort of > mystery surrounding that fact. The only thing I can think of off the > top of my head is that it's some sort of legacy of the Voldemort era, > when the families of Hogwarts staff would be vulnerable and probably > singled out for attack. Can anyone think of a more likely reason? > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Hi! Is it significant that the questions is whether they "had" spouses? This could mean that one (or more) of the staff had a spouse(s) that was killed by Voldemort. Thinking of Dumbledore having a wife that was killed breaks my heart. I love that old codger. Remember his sock comment about the mirror of Erised...that way Harry thought he just might be lying? (sniff...). Any other speculation on which prof. might have found the dark mark over their house? Cheers, -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 04:25:28 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (Not Specified) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:25:28 -0000 Subject: married staff Message-ID: <9lkqno+gv95@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24422 Hi! Is it significant that the question is whether they "had" spouses? This could mean that one (or more) of the staff had a spouse (s) that was killed by Voldemort. Thinking of Dumbledore having a wife that was killed breaks my heart. I love that old codger. Remember his sock comment about the mirror of Erised...that way Harry thought he just might be lying? (sniff...). Any other speculation on which prof. might have found the dark mark over their house? Perhaps Dumbledore's wife would knit socks for him during Christmas time. The socks would be his way of symbolizing her presence, which could be what he most desires. I think it's possible McGonagall could have lost a spouse. Perhaps her stern attitude and severe appearance (tight-bun, spectacles, etc.) are simply her way of coping with the loss of her husband. Who knows. JB From katzefan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 04:30:32 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:30:32 -0000 Subject: Ch. 7 questions Message-ID: <9lkr18+kd6r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24423 Coming in a little late here ... 1)How does Hagrid get away with using his wand? Does Dumbledore know that Hagrid uses it and just tends to overlook it? What about the MoM? I assume that yes, Dumbledore knows about it. In PS/SS, Hagrid tells Harry he's not allowed to use magic "now I've got yeh" but he does use a bit anyway, to get the boat back to shore faster. I think Dumbledore is well aware of Hagrid's occasional use of magic and overlooks it -- as he tends to overlook many of the things Harry, Hermione and Ron do. As for the MoM, we know they keep a close eye on underage wizards, butI wonder how close they would watch Hagrid - he's hardly underage. I think if he used some major magic, he (and Dumbledore) might have some explaining to do. 2)Why would Hogwarts allow Draco to buy his way onto the Slytherin Quidditch team? Are they that afraid of Lucius Malfoy? Money talks - apparently even in the Wizard world, at least to some extent. We're told that Draco does, in fact, fly fairly well, so it's not as though a complete oaf like Crabbe or Goyle is trying to buy their way onto a team. Again from Dumbledore's point of view, I think he's picking his battles carefully and this one just isn't worth the amount of yelling and shouting that would ensue if Draco (and all those brand-new brooms) were rejected. 3)Why do you think Hermione and the other women (with the exception of McGonagall) can't see what a fraud Lockhart is? Do you think he uses some sort of charm that only affects females? Already answered this one - no, I don't think it's a spell, just thirty-seven perfectly capped teeth and a lot of surface glitz. (Also he's written all those books so he's famous, and he's got a great ability to smarm all over everybody.) 4)When you first read CoS, who did you think the mysterious voice was? Didn't have a clue. 5)Why would they let a student keep a broken wand? Doesn't the staff think it could be dangerous since a broken wand is unpredictable? Well, they could hardly miss the danger, considering the havoc Ron unintentionally wreaks with it. I'm assuming that (a) anything the wand can do, Madame Pomfrey can undo; and (b) they would not want to embarrass a student by ordering them to purchase something their family can't afford. From katzefan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 04:34:53 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:34:53 -0000 Subject: school selection In-Reply-To: <9lirlv+pbd5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lkr9d+tm9u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24424 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote: > "Simon" wrote: > they take all those who get over y % on the tests. > > > > In the case of Eton you can be entered for the schools selection > from birth or just before you would start (start years range from 11- > 14 I believe). > > > For those who really really want to know abut Public School entrance > in Britain > > This is how it is done at Eton College. > > See the Eton homepage at > > http://146.101.4.41/Splash.asp > > The pictures may help put into context the Mental Images of school > dress and so on. Personally (referring to the film) I think the > designers of the uniforms have missed a trick in going for a more > conventional appearance. They could even have adopted the Christ's > Hospital look see the pictures at: > > http://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/FrameSchool.htm > > The Magical Quill in the Potterverse maps perhaps onto the Eton > List. > > Public Schools in Britain are Publicly Endowed schools (historically, > not funded by the Church and limited to church selected entrants). > They are private and independent of the State. > > Edis *Definitely* the Christ's Hospital style would have been preferable. Maybe Warner's thinks the Eton look is the only one there is. From katzefan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 04:44:11 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:44:11 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black In-Reply-To: <00da01c1272c$3acf6840$a473f2d1@lisaannc> Message-ID: <9lkrqr+kp52@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24425 Thank you, Lisa-Ann, that is pretty much what I had in mind but your explanation is much clearer and more concise! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" wrote: > I am not sure if this is a good explanation but I look at it this way. Sirius has been in Azkaban for what, 12 years or close to it. He has been kept sane only on the knowledge that he was innocent and framed by this whimpy little man that used to follow him around idolizing James and him all through school. He had to be saying the same thing over and over, if I ever get out of here and get my hands on that little rat I'm gonna.......(multiple choices to fill in the blanks here). > > Then he finds out where the rat is, manages to escape, finally gets his hands on Peter only to have this little kid stop him from getting his revenge. He was so far deep into the need to kill Peter that he did not realize what he was doing to Harry but he did stop himself from hurting him. I think that whether or not he wanted to realize it, Sirius saw the same thing that Dumbledore did, Harry is like James, and James would not want him dead either. I think this helped Sirius come out of his killing rage. At least, this is my opinion. > > LA > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: katzefan at y... > To: HPforGrownups at y... > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 1:24 AM > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Black > > > 2) Good question. That's hardly the best way to convince > somebody to listen to you. I'm wondering if he intended to grab > Harry's arm or shoulder and got him by the throat by accident, > and was sufficiently agitated that he really didn't notice. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katzefan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 04:50:27 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:50:27 -0000 Subject: Answers Re: Sirius Black/Dementors/Marauder's Map/Pettigrew vs. Lucius/ In-Reply-To: <20010817.105915.-387367.3.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lks6j+cf8c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24426 > I still don't understand why the Dementors were dismissed and the danger > declared over, if Sirius escaped the second time. Look at the protection > and fear everyone had for Harry while Sirius was on the loose - - and now > no one believes Harry's story, Sirius is gone again, and the guard is > totally dropped! What gives? > Dementors were probably dismissed from Hogwarts on Dumbledore's orders - *he* know Sirius is innocent and he never wanted the Dementors around anyway. Also, Sirius, in his letter to Harry after his escape, says he plans to make his presence known far from Hogwarts so the Dementors *can* be withdrawn because the perceived threat is known to have moved elsewhere. > Dementors: As for Jesse's question, perhaps there are human guards at > Azkaban at certain intervals of the day/week/month. I wonder if Azkaban > was truly left only in the hands of the dementors at all time. > Maybe there are also orc guards ...? > ..... (Do you think we'll all > be bored of HP by next July? This waiting period is quite awful. Will 10 > billion copies at first printing be suffiicent? I have a feeling I will > not be able to get my hands on a copy until the second printing, several > months later... Whew.) Doubt if most readers will be bored, but I can see fuses blowing everywhere as everyone tries to get online at the same time to order their copy of HP5 .... From katzefan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 05:07:48 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 05:07:48 -0000 Subject: Jane Austen influences(Was: Puzzling Question) In-Reply-To: <9lk8ub+onkt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lkt74+pums@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24427 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > > Rowling learned that from Jane Austen. > > > > Yes, but Jane was writing a comedy of manners. The > characterizations are > > excellent, but there really is not much plot. Nothing happens. When > you > > teach creative writing, you definitely don't assign Austen so that > > students can learn about plot construction. > > > Robyn > > I beg your pardon. Just because you don't have people shooting each > other, or overthrowing governments, or saving the world/ universe > against overwhelming odds does not mean that there isn't much of a > plot! > > I can't think of a better writer to teach plot construction than Jane > Austen. Her plots are so intricate and yet so subtle. Anyone can do > "the big bow-wow?", as Scott called it, but precious few can handle > the delicate stuff. Why not teach from the master? > > Andrew Davies, who wrote the screenplay for the latest P&P Adaptation > stated that her plots were like finely crafted swiss watches. You > simply cannot throw anything away and have it work. Another critic, > whose name escapes me, stated, "Her work is like a chinese puzzle box. > You hold up to the light, shake it, minutely examine it; and yet you > still can't figure out how it went together." > > When I read Joanne Kathleen Rowling, I see the Jane Austen influence > through-out her works. The very subtle touches. The refusal to sink > to soap-opera melodrama. The gentle satire and the delicate irony. > The meticulous plotting. The careful introduction of innocuous > details that later become critical. The 3-D characters. Their > subtle, but real growth. It's all Austen. > > It came as no surprise to me when JKR stated on several occasions that > Jane Austen is her favorite writer. I remember reading HP for the > first time and admiring her Austen-like touches. Mind you, they don't > match the master, but her influence is very much there. I kept > thinking, this writer has either read Austen or should read Austen. > She had taken the best of Austen without being a slave to her. > > Do not get me wrong. I think Rowling is a master. My point is she's > learned from the best. Now she's shining in her own light. > > Marcus > > P.S.: I would love to discuss Jane Austen, especially her masterpiece, > "Pride and Prejudice"; but not here. It is a bit OT, unfortunately. > We've already pushed the limits with our Gandalf discussion. :( Hear hear!!! (loud applause and cheers, startling the neighbours, from another Austen fan who thinks Pride and Prejudice is one of the best books ever written and who rereads it and rereads it and ....) From oppen at cnsinternet.com Sat Aug 18 05:51:50 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:51:50 -0500 Subject: Why Wands? Message-ID: <025001c127a9$e0a8ce00$ccc71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 24428 My own guess about wands is that they're kind of like "antennas" on radios or broadcast TV sets. Unless a mage is very, very powerful (think Dumbledore-level or maybe You-Know-Who level) the wand is necessary to "pick up" and focus the magical energies that the mage is trying to work with. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 18 06:20:08 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:20:08 -0700 Subject: Minister of Magic - Marauder's Map - Eton - good/evil - Loopy Lupin - Robes - Apparation - McGonagall's Spouse - Dementors Message-ID: <3B7E0918.F8F7B20B@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24429 Eric Oppen wrote: > If the Ministry of Magic is like other > cabinet-level positions in the British government, > it would change hands whenever a change of party > control in Parliament occured. (snip) I do think, > though, that wizards are British subjects like > any others, just with special institutions to > deal with their special powers. Me, I think that the wizarding community geographically located in any country is not under the Muggle government of that country, and they consider themselves to be citizens of their own wizarding country (such as wizarding Britain or wizarding Bulgaria) rather than subjects or citizens of the Muggle country. Imagine Muggle-haters like the Malfoys considering themselves to be ruled by a Muggle Parliament! We have nothing but our disagreeing personal opinions until someone gets JKR to answer this question in an on-line chat. But you have given me a scrap of argument for my side: Fudge seems to have been Minister for years, regardless of changes of Muggle government. Edis wrote: > But perhaps the map is actually dangerous and > wilfully unreliable? In short maybe from time > to time it has its own agenda, or the agenda of > some outside power. (snip) > Anyway, Harry and co are coming up to the age of > MWPP when the map was devised. Getting perhaps to > the level of magical skill where they too can hack > up original magical objects. Wonder whether the > opportunities and dangers of magical hacking come > into future plots. This is a "Wow, what a good idea! I never thought of that." post. Edis wrote: > For those who really really want to know abut Public > School entrance in Britain This is how it is done at > Eton College. See the Eton homepage at > http://146.101.4.41/Splash.asp Thanks, some of the info on that site is relevant to our discussions of Hogwarts. I clicked on Entry to Eton and Registration and got http://146.101.4.41/default.asp which says: "Boys normally enter the School in the September after their thirteenth birthday, having taken the Common Entrance Examination that June. A boy with an August birthday may come at just over fourteen if that can clearly be shown to be in his best interests." THE SEPTEMBER AFTER THEIR THIRTEENTH BIRTHDAY, ***NOT*** the September of the calendar year in which they have their 13th birthday. Robyn Herald Talia (is that an SCA name?) wrote: > He is also acting out of extreme selfishness, > which seems to be the essence of evil (snip) > Good is selflessness, a giving up of self for > others. Evil is the opposite. Wise, scholarly, virtuous, and personally heroic people have stated that definition, but I find it defective. If 'good' = 'giving up of self for others', than 'good' = a young and healthy and not at all suicidal person who enjoys life shooting himself in the brain on the front doorstep of a hospital so as to make his organs available for transplant.' Stephanie sdrk1 wrote: > But, you would think that calm, loving Lupin would stop > and think, "Hang on, if we turn Peter in, Sirius is > free..." Instead, he's ready to commit murder Still, Peter's freshly dead middle-aged body with one missing finger would be persuasive evidence that he hadn't been blown to smithereens twelve years earlier. > I think, "Now are these the kind of robes wizards > wear?" Are they long and full to the ground? Do > they wear other clothes under them? Are they open > or closed in the front? The world is full of artwork of fantasy-tale wizards and witches, and NONE of it except the HP movie shows the robe as a scrap worn over Muggle clothing. Usually the bottom (visible) layer is a robe that is like a long dress, floor length and closed in front, and robes that are open in front may be worn over it for warmth or to show off the beautiful embroidery. Often they wear a belt over their robes. I will digress to mention that Tim wears TWO belts with his leine (lan-ya, an ankle length medieval Irish shirt). He puts his plain belt around his waist and pulls off the leine so that it is knee-length, with the excess fabric blousing over the belt, and then he puts his fancy belt around his waist over the bloused fabric. Robyn Herald Talia wrote: > is there a distance limit on Apparating? Quidditch Through the Ages page 48: "Before that time [1935], wizards preferred to take ships rather than trust broomsticks over such distances [crossing Atlantic Ocean]. Apparition becomes increasingly unreliable over very long distances, and only highly skilled wizards are wise to attempt it across continents." Not Specified wrote: > I think it's possible McGonagall could have lost > a spouse. Perhaps her stern attitude and severe > appearance (tight-bun, spectacles, etc.) are simply > her way of coping with the loss of her husband. I guess it's been long enough that I can once again state my conviction that McGonagall and Hooch (Minnie and Hoochie) have been a couple since some time in the 1940s. Mindy wrote: > I still don't understand why the Dementors were > dismissed and the danger declared over, if Sirius > escaped the second time. The Dementors had clearly tried to Kiss Harry, thus showing even Fudge that Harry and the other students were in more danger from the Dementors than from Sirius. ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A dept V aluable E nlightened N atural C lassic L ewd A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 07:08:25 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:08:25 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <9lk2t9+m1kv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ll499+c2a2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24430 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > > Do we know any successful Wizard in the Potterverse that is married? > > We have met the parents of several Hogwarts students, but we are > > unaware of the parental or marriage status of any of the Hogwarts > > staff or the Minister of Magic. > > We know that Lucius Malfoy is married, and he's certainly a > successful wizard and quite respectable, though he doesn't deserve to > be. And according to what Crouch Sr. said in GoF, Minister Fudge is > married, or was at one time... > "Thank you, Weatherby, and when you have done that, I would like a > cup of tea. My wife and son will be arriving shortly, we are attending > a concert tonight with Mr. and Mrs. Fudge." GoF ch.28 We also know, from JKR, that information on marital status of Hogwarts' professors is restricted information, and that we'll find out why in later books. Have their been many hypotheses on this yet? Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 18 07:11:47 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:11:47 -0000 Subject: Me too post: (was Jane Austen influences(Was: Puzzling Question)) In-Reply-To: <9lk8ub+onkt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ll4fj+qsip@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24431 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > > Rowling learned that from Jane Austen. > > > > Yes, but Jane was writing a comedy of manners. The > characterizations are > > excellent, but there really is not much plot. Nothing happens. When > you > > teach creative writing, you definitely don't assign Austen so that > > students can learn about plot construction. > > > Robyn > > I beg your pardon. Just because you don't have people shooting each > other, or overthrowing governments, or saving the world/universe > against overwhelming odds does not mean that there isn't much of a > plot! > > I can't think of a better writer to teach plot construction than Jane > Austen. Her plots are so intricate and yet so subtle. Anyone can do > "the big bow-wow?", as Scott called it, but precious few can handle > the delicate stuff. Why not teach from the master? > > Andrew Davies, who wrote the screenplay for the latest P&P Adaptation > stated that her plots were like finely crafted swiss watches. You > simply cannot throw anything away and have it work. Another critic, > whose name escapes me, stated, "Her work is like a chinese puzzle box. > You hold up to the light, shake it, minutely examine it; and yet you > still can't figure out how it went together." > > When I read Joanne Kathleen Rowling, I see the Jane Austen influence > through-out her works. The very subtle touches. The refusal to sink > to soap-opera melodrama. The gentle satire and the delicate irony. > The meticulous plotting. The careful introduction of innocuous > details that later become critical. The 3-D characters. Their > subtle, but real growth. It's all Austen. > > It came as no surprise to me when JKR stated on several occasions that > Jane Austen is her favorite writer. I remember reading HP for the > first time and admiring her Austen-like touches. Mind you, they don't > match the master, but her influence is very much there. I kept > thinking, this writer has either read Austen or should read Austen. > She had taken the best of Austen without being a slave to her. > > Do not get me wrong. I think Rowling is a master. My point is she's > learned from the best. Now she's shining in her own light. > > Marcus > > P.S.: I would love to discuss Jane Austen, especially her masterpiece, > "Pride and Prejudice"; but not here. It is a bit OT, unfortunately. > We've already pushed the limits with our Gandalf discussion. :( I've warned everyone that this is a me too, but I may as well say it - I agree! How about moving the discussion over to OT-Chatter? Have you joined this group, Marcus? Catherine From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 07:41:41 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:41:41 -0000 Subject: Me too post: (was Jane Austen influences(Was: Puzzling Question)) In-Reply-To: <9ll4fj+qsip@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ll67l+3rou@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24432 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > How about moving the discussion over to OT-Chatter? Have > you joined this group, Marcus? > > Catherine As a point of fact, yes I have. However, I seldom go over there. I barely have enough time to sort of cover the main list. I hate to get involved in another and spread myself even thinner. However, I think a thread about the Austen influences in Harry Potter (Snape as Mr. Darcy, for example) would be fun. :) In the meantime, it is 12:30AM here and I am going to bed. Good- night! Marcus From litalex at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 12:06:48 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 20:06:48 +0800 Subject: Things I can't bear in the Taiwanese/Chinese versions Message-ID: <01e501c127de$431bc180$4d06bacb@hal9000> No: HPFGUIDX 24433 Hello, I was just flipping through the Chinese version (I think Taiwanese) in a bookstore and came across a word that was, I think, badly translated. For some weird reason, "wand" was translated into "magic staff." Why oh why couldn't they get a better translator? Anyway, since I know some of our group members definitely read the Chinese versions, I just want to ask if you guys discovered anything that just irks you to no ends? little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From litalex at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 12:47:41 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 20:47:41 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes (silly question) References: <20010817202444.35875.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <025901c127e3$f8bd4ea0$4d06bacb@hal9000> No: HPFGUIDX 24434 Hello, From: "Jess heart" > because HE likes a healthy breeze around his privates > privates doesn't necessarily mean that most wizards > do. True, but I was under the impression that Archie was being eccentric by sticking to an outdated style of dress, which means the "no muggle clothing underneath in the old days" is still a valid observation. little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Aug 18 13:01:33 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:01:33 -0000 Subject: married staff In-Reply-To: <9lkmkn+3pvf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9llovd+ho7i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24435 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Sheila McCleary - Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? > JKR - Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why.> You know, I thought JKR meant restricted information from us. Looking at it again (and I've been thinking about this one lately), I wonder if any of the students at Hogwarts are relatives of any of the teachers. I don't mean married, of course, but if a Hogwarts professor married an aunt or uncle of a Hogwarts student, it could be significant. Ewwww - imagine if Snape is the husband of one of Neville Longbottom's aunts! --jenny from ravenclaw**************************************** From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Aug 18 13:03:11 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:03:11 -0000 Subject: married staff In-Reply-To: <9lkmkn+3pvf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9llp2f+j5p3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24436 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Sheila McCleary - Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? > JKR - Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why.> ...or Neville is the nephew of Professor Sprout, hence the good marks in Herbology. --jenny from ravenclaw********************************************* From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 15:15:36 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:15:36 -0000 Subject: New stuff at the WB site Message-ID: <9lm0qo+8al0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24437 The official WB site has some nice bios for the characters and actors who portray them. They even have some tidbits of info like Mr. Malfoy's position at the MOM http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/bios/ Marcus From DinaYS at aol.com Sat Aug 18 15:20:17 2001 From: DinaYS at aol.com (DinaYS at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:20:17 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew vs. Lucius In-Reply-To: <9lkh0a+enpv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lm13h+no7l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24438 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > > Who's more evil, Pettigrew or Lucius: IMO, definitely Lucius. > Pettigrew > > is a bumbling idiot who does his master's budding out of fear and > > dimness. Lucius is bright, cunning, calculated and menacing. > Pettigrew > > never appeares menacing and fear-provoking. He is just timidly > doing what > > Voldie demands of him, not out of his own accord. > > I agree with the idea that malfoy is more evil than pettigrew, but i almost see pettigrew as more dangerous. His fear and willingness to give up his "friends" seems to pose at least as much of a threat as malfoy, who is totally out for himself and not as much willing to risk his position and wealth. Malfoy will always pretend to be whatever will give him the most power, but he will never risk himself, IMO. Remember he reminds Draco that being mean to Harry may not be in their best interest (not exact words from when haryy overhears them in knockturn alley, i think). Pettigrew has already lost everything and therefore has nothing to lose. His fears of Voldie will overcome any sensibilities he may have. Dina From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 15:35:40 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:35:40 -0000 Subject: So, what is the "Standing Officer" of the MoM? Message-ID: <9lm20c+68fg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24439 I am assuming that details that come up in the film ar Canon, since I cannot imagine them putting in details like this without clearance from JKR. We now know that Lucius Malfoy holds the prestigious postion of "Standing Officer" of the MoM? It does sound prestigious, I guess. What do people think this is? I am wondering if he would be the one who would stand in for the Minister if anything happened to him. It sounds that way to me. SO dear old LM as Minister of Magic is only heartbeat away.... Esssh!! --Suzanne From bohners at pobox.com Sat Aug 18 16:32:13 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:32:13 -0400 Subject: MOVIE: Bios at the WB Site (w/spoilers for those who haven't seen 'em) References: <9lm0qo+8al0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <0f1301c12803$647840e0$7e17fea9@bohners> No: HPFGUIDX 24440 > The official WB site has some nice bios for the characters and actors > who portray them. They even have some tidbits of info like Mr. > Malfoy's position at the MOM I think my favorite part, though, is where Ron's favorite Quidditch team is identified as... . . . . . . . . . ...wait for it... . . . . . . . . . The "Chutney Chasers". *splutter* Who WRITES these things? I also enjoyed the description of Dumbledore as "omniscient". Gee, the guy may know a lot, but surely he's not THAT good. I do hope these descriptions aren't meant to be taken as canonical, or we're going to have to conclude that Snape *does* want the DADA job after all. (The Snape bio also imparts the hilarious tidbit that Snape dislikes Harry but "tries not to let this spoil his day" -- oh, really?) I do love the pic, though. *swoon* Quirrell as a "known cohort" of Snape? Puh-leeze! And Dudley "kind enough" to "give" Harry his old clothes?! *laughs uproariously* Plus, the sentence structure and grammar in some of the bios are awful... I am astounded that a mega-corporation like WB would let such shoddy writing appear on their site. Oh, well. Reading them is still kinda fun. :) -- Rebecca J. (Anderson) Bohner Specializing in Snape, Moody and George at http://www.sugarquill.com/authors/rjanderson.html http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/R_J_Anderson From corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 16:50:36 2001 From: corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:50:36 -0000 Subject: Robes (silly question) In-Reply-To: <20010817.145038.-137953.5.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lm6cs+rccc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24441 Speaking of robes ... why doesn't Hagrid ever wear a robe? It doesn't say he wore one, even when he was teaching. Doreen ************** --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > I'm also picturing academic ones. And the robes at my university are a > particularly ridiculous color, so I can even think about Gladrags > Wizardwear. > I bet Lupin has a belted robe - he doesn't strike me as too fastidious > about his appearance, so even if belts aren't quite fashionable, he'd > wear one if it was comfortable for him. > Robyn > > On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:30:26 -0000 "Stephanie Roark Keener" > writes: > > Okay, so I'm rolling the cat hair off my husband's academic robes a > > few minutes ago (hopefully, I'll get a photo of him in his robes at > > opening convocation, he's got crazy black hair and round glasses, > > people STARE, I'll post it here, it's too funny) and I think, "Now > > are these the kind of robes wizards wear?" Are they long and full > > to > > the ground? Do they wear other clothes under them? Are they open > > or > > closed in the front? I remember someone at the Quiddich WC wearing > > a > > nightgown b/c he likes to be, er, "free" -- but I also remember > > Lupin > > sticking his wand in his belt (NO JOKES about my remembering > > anything > > having to do with Lupin's belt area), which suggests pants. What do > > they look like in the movie -- I just haven't checked. > > Stephanie > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > > tips at > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/netiquett > eTIPS.htm > > > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > > at > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/VFAQ.htm > > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at y... > > > > Want to leave this list? Email > > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From jkaminskaja at crosswinds.net Sat Aug 18 16:59:21 2001 From: jkaminskaja at crosswinds.net (CJK) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:59:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes (silly question) References: <9lm6cs+rccc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000d01c12807$217851a0$959efcc3@ook> No: HPFGUIDX 24442 > Speaking of robes ... why doesn't Hagrid ever wear a robe? It doesn't > say he wore one, even when he was teaching. Maybe robes are the equivalent of formal wear (like a jacket and tie) and Hagrid is wearing the equivalent of a T-shirt and jeans? CJK From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Sat Aug 18 16:55:37 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:55:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes (silly question) References: <9lm6cs+rccc@eGroups.com> <000d01c12807$217851a0$959efcc3@ook> Message-ID: <002701c12806$9cfc9bc0$eb4e063e@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 24443 > Maybe robes are the equivalent of formal wear (like a jacket and tie) and > Hagrid is wearing the equivalent of a T-shirt and jeans? Ok, then, if that's the case, why do they wear robes to the QWC ? Michelle From djtarb at aol.com Sat Aug 18 17:02:05 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:02:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: married staff Message-ID: <11c.34443b4.28aff98e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24444 In a message dated Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:28:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Not Specified" writes: > > > > > I think it's possible McGonagall could have lost a spouse. Perhaps > her stern attitude and severe appearance (tight-bun, spectacles, > etc.) are simply her way of coping with the loss of her husband. Who > knows. We've now seen at least 3 examples of people existing long-term as animals...two were animagi (Sirius and Peter) and the other is Rita Skeeter. So people can become animals two ways...by changing themselves or being changed against their wills. I'm really interested to learn the history of Crookshanks, who seems to be much more than a cat. I suspect he may turn out to be an enchanted wizard. Don't I have a fertile imagination! Diane in PA From jkaminskaja at crosswinds.net Sat Aug 18 17:09:15 2001 From: jkaminskaja at crosswinds.net (CJK) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 19:09:15 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes (silly question) References: <9lm6cs+rccc@eGroups.com> <000d01c12807$217851a0$959efcc3@ook> <002701c12806$9cfc9bc0$eb4e063e@tmeltcds> Message-ID: <001a01c12808$82faabc0$959efcc3@ook> No: HPFGUIDX 24445 > > Maybe robes are the equivalent of formal wear (like a jacket and tie) > and Hagrid is wearing the equivalent of a T-shirt and jeans? > Ok, then, if that's the case, why do they wear robes to the QWC ? Hmm... okay, I'm grasping at straws here. Another theory - Robes are "proper wizards'" clothing. Do we know if Flich's always/ever wearing them? Maybe only acknowledged wizards and witches wear robes, and Hagrid doesn't count as one because he never graduated Hogwarts? Help me out here, I'm drowning. :) CJK From vderark at bccs.org Sat Aug 18 17:05:49 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:05:49 -0000 Subject: New stuff at the WB site In-Reply-To: <9lm0qo+8al0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lm79d+r361@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24446 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > The official WB site has some nice bios for the characters and actors > who portray them. They even have some tidbits of info like Mr. > Malfoy's position at the MOM > > http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/bios/ > > Marcus I think we can safely discount any such information from the official site. They do not have their facts correct even on the things we already know. Check out the Ron bio if you're curious. This is not canon, it's what some flunky over at Warner made up after a cursory read of the books. The same goes for the map/overview that they have as the background of the Beater game. It's beautiful and mostly correct. But as a librarian who helps kids research, I have problems with things that are "mostly correct." I am writing my contact at Rights and Permissions from Warner Bros to ask permission to include that image on the Lexicon, but I'll put corrections either on it using Photodraw or as a list under it. I have to say that it is disheartening that the official site is as sloppy about things as they are. I'm not exactly surprised, just disappointed. But I will certainly not take THEIR word for anything. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From vderark at bccs.org Sat Aug 18 17:10:07 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:10:07 -0000 Subject: married staff In-Reply-To: <11c.34443b4.28aff98e@aol.com> Message-ID: <9lm7hf+31fr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24447 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., djtarb at a... wrote: > I'm really interested to learn the history of Crookshanks, who seems to be much more than a cat. I suspect he may turn out to be an enchanted wizard. Crookshanks is part Kneazle, which accounts for his behavior. Check out the Crookshanks page of the Lexicon for all the details. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/crookshanks.html Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Aug 18 17:43:02 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:43:02 -0000 Subject: Are the WB site bios canonical Message-ID: <9lm9f6+vqsk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24448 Notice that all the bios at the WB site appear under the Daily Prophet banner. 'Nuff said. Pippin From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Sat Aug 18 17:43:14 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:43:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Are the WB site bios canonical References: <9lm9f6+vqsk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <004e01c1280d$428e6a40$eb4e063e@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 24449 > Notice that all the bios at the WB site appear under the Daily Prophet > banner. 'Nuff said. So we know Rita Skeeter escapes from the jar eventually :-)) Michelle From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 17:52:58 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:52:58 -0000 Subject: So, what is the "Standing Officer" of the MoM? In-Reply-To: <9lm20c+68fg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lma1q+fsqd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24450 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > I am assuming that details that come up in the film ar Canon, since I > cannot imagine them putting in details like this without clearance > from JKR. > > We now know that Lucius Malfoy holds the prestigious postion > of "Standing Officer" of the MoM? It does sound prestigious, I guess. > What do people think this is? > > I am wondering if he would be the one who would stand in for the > Minister if anything happened to him. It sounds that way to me. > > SO dear old LM as Minister of Magic is only heartbeat away.... Esssh!! > > > --Suzanne What you say about the movie is likely correct. However, we have to be careful about the marketing, merchandizing, and other stuff surrounding the movie. This copy bears all the hallmarks of some marketing flunky who did a cursory read through the book or has only seen one or two viewings of the rough cut. Their job is to build up excitement about the film. They aren't too concerned with accuracy. In other words, use plenty of grains of salt. :) However, I suspect "Standing Officer" or something like it is liable to be correct. That is an important detail. If it is canon, I would speculate that it makes him more than a staff member to the Minister, less than a cabinet minister. Marcus From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 18:14:51 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:14:51 -0000 Subject: So, what is the "Standing Officer" of the MoM? In-Reply-To: <9lma1q+fsqd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lmbar+vkoo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24451 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: This copy bears all the hallmarks of some > marketing flunky who did a cursory read through the book or has only > seen one or two viewings of the rough cut. Their job is to build up > excitement about the film. They aren't too concerned with accuracy. > > In other words, use plenty of grains of salt. :) With Barrels of Salt. more likely! > However, I suspect "Standing Officer" or something like it is liable > to be correct. That is an important detail. If it is canon, I would > speculate that it makes him more than a staff member to the Minister, > less than a cabinet minister. > > Marcus I would think that, assuming this isn't merely another botched effort from WB, that a "Standing Officer" might be something akin to the "Permanent Secretaries" in the British government. These are not politicians, and they do not hold public office, but they run the ministries in reality and "know where all the bodies are buried"-- which applies to Lucius Malfoy with perhaps particular significance. Such a permanent secretary would not succeed to the Minister's position in case of death or disability. Haggridd From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 18:30:33 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:30:33 -0000 Subject: Is Harry Potter related to Tom Riddle? Message-ID: <9lmc89+g21s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24452 In this long hiatus between GoF and OoP, my mind wanders and wonders about whether Riddle and Harry are related by blood. I do not mean the blood of the Resurrection Spell, but in the usual sense. JKR makes it a point to have both Tom And Harry have the same black hair, which IIRC doesn't belong to anybody else described in detail. She also has Tom state in great detail the similarities between himself and HP. One whopping flapping great RED Flag IMHO. The questions remain, if there is a blood relationship, where does it lie, and have we been provided with enough information yet to deduce that relationship? Tom is older than Harry' parents. That is clear from internal evidence. Wait a minute! I just had a thought: Does the wizarding world at large now know that Lord Voldemort was Tom Riddle? They did not as of CoS, and there are no references in subsequent books to imply it one way or the other. Yes Dumbledore knows, but who else does? So there are no instances where anybody could say, "Oy! That Tom Riddle is your uncle, Harry! How does it feel to be related to You-Know-Who?" Anyway, I'm stumped. Can anybody help me? Haggridd From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 18:35:47 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:35:47 -0000 Subject: Robes (silly question) In-Reply-To: <001a01c12808$82faabc0$959efcc3@ook> Message-ID: <9lmci3+2j9f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24453 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "CJK" wrote: > > > > Maybe robes are the equivalent of formal wear (like a jacket and tie) > > and Hagrid is wearing the equivalent of a T-shirt and jeans? > > > Ok, then, if that's the case, why do they wear robes to the QWC ? > > Hmm... okay, I'm grasping at straws here. Another theory - Robes are "proper > wizards'" clothing. Do we know if Flich's always/ever wearing them? Maybe > only acknowledged wizards and witches wear robes, and Hagrid doesn't count > as one because he never graduated Hogwarts? > > Help me out here, I'm drowning. :) > > CJK No, I think you're on to something. If robes were just sort of standard magical wear, it would seem that not only Hagrid, but the kids would wear them all the time too. Insted, it's more like a school uniform, and then a mark of honor, and training, to get to wear them all the time. That would make them more like academic robes than the gown-like robes that we think of Disney's Merlin, or some other such character, wears. Maybe that would explain why they're being depicted as open in the front??? (Hey, is there anybody out there at Sewanee?? Doesn't your faculty have to wear robes most of the time?? Ha! Wizard University -- it's been in Tennessee all along ;) ). Stephanie From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 18:37:10 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:37:10 -0000 Subject: So, what is the "Standing Officer" of the MoM? In-Reply-To: <9lmbar+vkoo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lmckm+inq5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24454 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > I would think that, assuming this isn't merely another botched effort > from WB, that a "Standing Officer" might be something akin to the > "Permanent Secretaries" in the British government. These are not > politicians, and they do not hold public office, but they run the > ministries in reality and "know where all the bodies are buried"-- > which applies to Lucius Malfoy with perhaps particular significance. > Such a permanent secretary would not succeed to the Minister's > position in case of death or disability. > > Haggridd Ah, well that would make sense. I can't see Lucius doing something so common as running for office (and having to solicit votes from ordinary wizards!), and yet I do picture him as having some sort of important position which makes him privy to everything important. I wonder how Ministry officials are elected btw? Now that I think of it, it does not appear that they are voted in per se. It sounds like there is a committee of some sort that selects the Minister, sort of the way Harard University would select its president. Note how the position was offered to Dumbledore-- it seems clear that he wasn't running for the office. I read the rest of th bios and I have to agree to their sloppiness. Somehow thought this detail sounds precise enough that I think it might turn out to be canon. It would make sense for future plot development! --Suzanne From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 18 19:12:59 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 19:12:59 -0000 Subject: Animal forms (was married staff) In-Reply-To: <11c.34443b4.28aff98e@aol.com> Message-ID: <9lmenr+crci@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24456 Diane wrote: > We've now seen at least 3 examples of people existing long-term as animals...two were animagi (Sirius and Peter) and the other is Rita Skeeter. So people can become animals two ways...by changing themselves or being changed against their wills. Rita's an animagus too. She wasn't changed against her will, although she is being kept in that form against her will as long as Hermione keeps the Unbreakable Charm on the jar. Draco, however, is an example of someone being changed against his will . . . unless he has a secret desire to become a ferret. Anyhoo, what were your thoughts on the difference between willing and unwilling transfigurations? Amy Z ----------------------------------------------------- Ron, who had been gazing at Harry, said, "You don't know how bizarre it is to see Goyle =thinking=." -HP and the Chamber of Secrets ----------------------------------------------------- From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 18 20:16:34 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:16:34 -0700 Subject: Bad translation - Robes - Animal Transformation - Standing Officer - "Blood" Relations Message-ID: <3B7ECD22.1AB04D7D@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24457 Little Alex wrote; > Anyway, since I know some of our group members > definitely read the Chinese versions, I just want > to ask if you guys discovered anything that just > irks you to no ends? I recall some member who read the mainland Chinese version complaining that in it, Fudge said Sirius escaped by Transfiguration, and Hermione said you can't Transfigure at Hogwarts. Doreen wrote: > why doesn't Hagrid ever wear a robe? Maybe they don't make robes big enough for him j/k. Diane in PA wrote: > I'm really interested to learn the history of > Crookshanks, who seems to be much more than a cat. > I suspect he may turn out to be an enchanted wizard. I used to suspect that Crookshanks was McGonagall's offspring when she was in cat form, but then JKR revealed in a chat that Crookshanks is part Kneazle. I suppose it is possible that both are true: Minnie in cat form coupled with a Kneazle. Btw, Diane in PA, someone over on the OT list is looking for people to join a southern PA and Delaware group or at least a group outing to the movie. Amy Z wrote: > Draco, however, is an example of someone being > changed against his will . . . unless he has a > secret desire to become a ferret. Draco was only Transfigured to a ferret for a short time. Diane in PA could also have mentioned McGonagall, another Animagus, but she did not remain in cat form "long-term". Suzanne rainy lilac wrote: > I can't see Lucius doing something so > common as running for office To me, Lucius would be even more unlikely to do something so common as to take a Civil Service exam, be on a payroll, and apply for promotions. Surely any official government job he has would be a Sickle-a-year man. > I wonder how Ministry officials are elected btw? > Now that I think of it, it does not appear that > they are voted in per se. I've been assuming that most of the Ministry workers are mere employees, given their jobs by Civil Service exam or by patronage, and working their way up from promotion to promotion. But you just now gave me a new idea of how the Minister of Magic is (s)elected. I had been assuming some sort of election by the wizarding folk of the people of the country for which he is Minister, but just now I thought that the wizarding folk might have much more effective world government than Muggles do... THE government is the International (Con)Federation of Wizards/Warlocks, and it appoints a Minister of Magic to administer each member country. Hagridd wrote: > Subject: Is Harry Potter related to Tom Riddle? > "Oy! That Tom Riddle is your uncle, Harry! Someone asked JKR in a chat if Harry was related to Voldemort, and JKR said something like "Ugh, that would be so Star Wars" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches. Ravenclaw '76 ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 18 20:30:40 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:30:40 -0700 Subject: Happy Hogwarts Halloween! greeting owls Message-ID: <3B7ED070.A729BF7B@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24458 I have been inspired by something Ebony said in HPfGU-OT. Halloween is a BIG holiday in the Potterverse. We can acknowledge it with exchanging Halloween cards, I mean Owls, I mean via Snail Mail rather than Owl Post. Everyone who wants to participate can send their Snail Mail address and e-mail address to me catlady @ wicca.net and I will put all the Snail Mail addresses on a list and on October First I will e-mail the list to everyone on it, and then we can all rush to the Post Office (or bank or ATM machine or supermarket) to buy Snail Mail stamps for the cards that each person on the list will send to each other person on the list. Ebony said that, even on the Kindred list, only 50 to 100 people participate, so the postage shouldn't be TOO expensive. ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 20:53:05 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 20:53:05 -0000 Subject: Is Harry Potter related to Tom Riddle? In-Reply-To: <9lmc89+g21s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lmkjh+g3hm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24459 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > In this long hiatus between GoF and OoP, my mind wanders and wonders > about whether Riddle and Harry are related by blood > Haggridd If I had a nickel for every time I've seen this come up in the several HP boards I've frequented... Anyway, if they were related, we know several things. One, Harry's mother was a muggle. Two, Tom's father was a muggle. Three, Tom is the last descendent of Slytherin. Four, Harry got his hair from his father. Five, Harry's parents were surnamed Potter and Evans. Tom's father was surnamed Riddle. We don't know about his mother. Given these facts, what is the closest relation they can be? Let's make two assumptions. (1)Nobody changed their names. (2) Slytherin descension came through Tom's Wizard side First the wizard side. Tom Jr.'s mother could have been a half sister to James Potter. This would mean that Tom Jr. and Harry could be half-first cousins on the wizard side. If the Slytherin descension doesn't come to Tom through the Wizarad side, they could be full first cousins. If we are talking muggle side, Lily Evans would have to be a first cousin of Tom Riddle Sr. or neice. If the former, Tom Jr. and Harry are no closer than second cousins. If the later, Lily and Tom Jr. are first cousins making Tom Jr. and Harry first cousins once removed. Personally I doubt the connection, thinking it is just a red herring. Marcus From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 21:27:54 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:27:54 -0000 Subject: "Blood" Relations In-Reply-To: <3B7ECD22.1AB04D7D@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9lmmkq+9231@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24460 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > > Hagridd wrote: > > > Subject: Is Harry Potter related to Tom Riddle? > > "Oy! That Tom Riddle is your uncle, Harry! > > Someone asked JKR in a chat if Harry was related to Voldemort, and JKR > said something like "Ugh, that would be so Star Wars" > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches. Ravenclaw '76 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ That wasn't a denial, was it? That was a deflection of the questioner while providing no answer. I have nothing emotional invested in their being related. I was just speculating. I find prefectmarcus's reply on point and very persuasive. Haggridd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lignum Vitae, Phoenix feather, 14 inches, Gryffindor '66 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Aug 18 21:56:07 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:56:07 -0000 Subject: Filch - AD and GtheG - Dragon lingo - Fudge In-Reply-To: <20010817.144628.-137953.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lmo9n+iqf5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24461 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > It was me (Robyn) who wrote that. Umm, hence the term birdbrain? So is > there consensus here- the HH just isn't too bright? I think it's a good JKR rule of thumb that anything or -one whose name ends with the suffix "tail" is either rather nasty, not overly bright, or both. Think Horntail, Wormtail, Nogtail.....(any I'm missing?) - CMC From eliasberg at ioc.net Sat Aug 18 22:32:28 2001 From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:32:28 -0000 Subject: Is Harry Potter related to Tom Riddle? In-Reply-To: <9lmc89+g21s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lmqds+vf0a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24462 Mr. Ollivander knew that Voldemort was Tom Riddle. He mentions to Harry that he sold the wand that gave him the scar. Dave From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 18 23:39:51 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?Windows-1252?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:39:51 -0500 Subject: Lucius Malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24463 All right, I?m American and have frankly no idea how British Boarding schools work. In CoS, we learnt that Lucius was one of the twelve school governors. What are school governors? Is this a paying position or like being part of the PTA? At the end of the book, he was ?sacked? from his position as Governor, which I figured meant it was a job. If someone would be so kind as to clear that up for me, I?d appreciate it. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 18 23:52:39 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:52:39 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy/Board of Governors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lmv47+6317@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24464 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alfredo Ram?rez wrote: > All right, I'm American and have frankly no idea how British > Boarding schools work. In CoS, we learnt that Lucius was one of the > twelve school governors. What are school governors? Is this a > paying position or like being part of the PTA? At the end of the > book, he was `sacked' from his position as Governor, which I > figured meant it was a job. If someone would be so kind as to clear > that up for me, I'd appreciate it. I believe that the Board of Governors of a British "public" (meaning private) school is like the Board of Trustees of an American private college/university (at mine, they were called Board of Managers). The Board of Trustees meets a couple of days a year and votes on whether to fire the President of the College and who to hire as new President, and on Big Issues like whether the college should have an Affirmative Action program and should the College go co-ed. They might have to vote their approval of the Business Manager and/or Fund Raising Director chosen by the President and of high-dollar contracts for the College to buy supplies/equipment or to sell research results. The payment of IIRC $75 a meeting doesn't even cover the airfare to the meeting place, but being a Trustee is a huge honor, very useful for networking with important people, and an opportunity for taking bribes/extortion. From dasienko at email.com Sun Aug 19 01:06:57 2001 From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:06:57 -0000 Subject: True Prediction In-Reply-To: <20010813135428.10930.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9ln3fh+t9n7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24465 Let's not forget that all through GoF, Trewlaney was predicting that death was coming closer. She thought that it was Harry's death that she was predicting, but it really was Cedric's. In PoA, at Christmas, she predicted that Lupin wouldn't be with them for very long, She thought that she was predicting his death, but she was really predicting his departure. It seems that her "seer gene" is working its her "interpretation gene" that is lacking. From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Aug 19 01:26:44 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:26:44 -0000 Subject: Animal forms (was married staff) In-Reply-To: <9lmenr+crci@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ln4kk+9lc4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24466 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: Anyhoo, > what were your thoughts on the difference between willing and > unwilling transfigurations?> It appears that one does not need a wand in order to Transfigure oneself. However, a wand is needed to Transfigure another. FWIW, I sure loved the Draco-turned-ferret scene. --jenny from ravenclaw, who'd also probably be a cat if she could Transfigure ****************************************************** From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Sun Aug 19 01:39:24 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:39:24 -0000 Subject: Things I can't bear in the Taiwanese/Chinese versions In-Reply-To: <01e501c127de$431bc180$4d06bacb@hal9000> Message-ID: <9ln5cc+phll@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24467 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Anyway, since I know some of our group members definitely read the Chinese > versions, I just want to ask if you guys discovered anything that just irks > you to no ends? > > little Alex The Chinese versions (both mainland and Taiwanese) were very badly translated in every single aspect. Taiwanese version is marginally better but not by far. The Mainland Chinese version, in particular, has very strange sentence structure and reads like English written in Chinese. JKR's marvelous narration was totally butchered; the names of characters were long and confusing and it takes hours to figure out who's speaking to whom; the translator sometimes take the liberty to change the meaning of speeches ... and don't get me started on how badly the chapter Parting of the Ways is translated. The translator managed to take all the sense of urgency and tension out of that scene -- Dumbledore sounds senile; McGonagall hysterical; Snape sounds like he's going to book a table in Three Broomsticks for Dumbledore instead of some important tasks. The ridiculous part is Cho Chong -- the translator didn't even bother to change her name back to the Chinese ordering i.e. Surname first, then given name. It's very glaring. Can't they get someone who can actually write Chinese? From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Sun Aug 19 02:52:13 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 02:52:13 -0000 Subject: True Prediction In-Reply-To: <9ln3fh+t9n7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ln9kt+ovio@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24468 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dasienko at e... wrote: > Let's not forget that all through GoF, Trewlaney was predicting that > death was coming closer. She thought that it was Harry's death that > she was predicting, but it really was Cedric's. > In PoA, at Christmas, she predicted that Lupin wouldn't be with them > for very long, She thought that she was predicting his death, but she > was really predicting his departure. > It seems that her "seer gene" is working its her "interpretation > gene" that is lacking. With all due respect, I don't think so. Professor Trelawney has been predicting the death of student every year since she started teaching at Hogwarts, and no one ever died until Cedric, who wasn't even in Harry's class. It was Harry's death she was predicting; Harry's tea- leaves had the Grim, Harry had the shortest lifeline she had ever seen, and it was Harry she gazed at with tears in her eyes. As for Lupin, she probably figured he wouldn't last in his position any longer the the previous DADA teachers, both of whom left after a year. Either that, or she used the fact that he was ill to 'predict' that he wouldn't get better. She is, as someone said, 'a right old fraud'. Bente From gabrielamedinasi_3 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 02:54:20 2001 From: gabrielamedinasi_3 at yahoo.com (Gabriela Medina) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 19:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Harry Potter related to Tom Riddle? In-Reply-To: <998165793.2616.63677.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010819025420.83781.qmail@web14911.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24469 J.K already told in a Scholastic chat that it would be to much like star wars to them be related! ( Do you Imagine Voldemort saying to Harry: "Harry, I am your father."? The fact that she mentioned Star Wars was really funny to me because 4 0r 5 days before reading that chat interview, I told a Friend exactly the same thing! *G* Thats a mayor case of Coincidence, isn't it? Love Gabe ===== There are many methods of achieving immortality. Fame. Fortune. Heroic Deeds. Creativity. Lots and lots of descendants. However, the one you should favour is Not Dying. (Taken from Colour of Magic by Pratchett, no surprises there, eh?) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From BrownieH6 at aol.com Sun Aug 19 03:12:06 2001 From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:12:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius Malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24470 In a message dated 8/18/01 7:43:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bonds0097 at yahoo.com writes: > All right, I?m American and have frankly no idea how British Boarding > schools work. In CoS, we learnt that Lucius was one of the twelve school > governors. What are school governors? Is this a paying position or like > being part of the PTA? At the end of the book, he was ?sacked? from his > position as Governor, which I figured meant it was a job. If someone would > I think that the school governors is like the school board here in the U.S. You know, every school has a board of directors. ~Marie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heraldtalia at juno.com Sun Aug 19 02:48:45 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:48:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Puzzling Question Message-ID: <20010818.234941.-137069.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24471 the > job of protecting Harry (in my never to be humble opinion) is > Arabella Figg. It's surely no coincidence that she has taken care of > > him every time the Dursleys have had something fun to do. It is > implied that there are protections in place around 4 Privet Drive, > and in addition to charms (Fidelius and otherwise), I'm sure > Arabella > has something to do with it. I can't wait until Harry figures out > that all the time he spent in her cabbage smelling living room > looking at pictures of cats, was spent with a witch! > > Bente Knowing what we know about Memory Charms, was harry *really* looking at pictures of cats during his visits with Mrs. Figg? Robyn From heraldtalia at juno.com Sun Aug 19 03:49:16 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:49:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: True Prediction Message-ID: <20010818.234942.-137069.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24472 I thought the humor of that was that her vague predictions were sort of true, after all. I don't think any of them were true Sight - that was just Sibyll being Sibyll. It works the way the Psychic Hotline works - because it's vague. We know her real Sight occurs when she goes into a trance. BTW - another signal flag is Dumbledore's saying this was her second true prediction, I should give her a raise. What was the first prediction? That could be very important. Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:06:57 -0000 dasienko at email.com writes: > Let's not forget that all through GoF, Trewlaney was predicting that > death was coming closer. She thought that it was Harry's death that > she was predicting, but it really was Cedric's. > In PoA, at Christmas, she predicted that Lupin wouldn't be with them > > for very long, She thought that she was predicting his death, but > she > was really predicting his departure. > It seems that her "seer gene" is working its her "interpretation > gene" that is lacking. From heraldtalia at juno.com Sun Aug 19 03:08:36 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:08:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jane Austen influences(Was: Puzzling Question) Message-ID: <20010818.234942.-137069.1.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24473 OK, Prefect Marcus, sir, don't take any points off my House. I'll answer this one and then stop going OT. I promise!!!!! What I love about JKR, and you mentioned it a bit, is the characterization. We meet a character, like Neville, and we think - oh, I know HIS type - the absentminded British kid - the fluffy slippers, etc. Then, when we're convinced we have him all neatly categorized, he stands up to Harry, Ron and Hermione. Even that fits in with the character profile. Then we hear about the boggart and Snape, and we find out about his parents. And we think Oh, I actually was wondering about why he lives with his grandmother, but it didn't seem a pressing concern. And as we read on, the characters start really assuming complexity, lifting completely out of their "types" and into real people. That's where I see Austen's influence. Austen, however, uses her plot totally in service of the characterization. She does the same thing - her characters, whom we recognize immediately as "types" start to grow and change, or even stay the same, but we now have such insight and perspective on them. The plot seems almost irrelevant to the masterful way she does this. Snape is the greatest example of this. Every time we think we have him pegged, something else comes to light. Hagrid is like this too - he's just a bumbling fool. But he was willing to be expelled from Hogwarts solely to protect Aragog. He's perceptive about Ron and Hermione's fight. There's more to him than meets the eye. JKR is no Austen, and she's not trying to acheive the same things. But she does social commentary and characterization in similar ways. Do you really think it's JKR's plots that are detail driven, or her characterizations? I actually think it' s both. Whearas I don't think Austen was trying to tell a story, I think she was trying to paint a picture of people. You're probably going to disagree, but I feel that this is where Austen's strength lies. And whatever else JKR is doing with her books, she is also telling a very exciting story, hence its popularity with the "younger set." This whole discussion makes me think of this JKR quote: "Many wizards, talented as though they are in the art of loud bangs and sudden disappearings, fail to appreciate the beauty of a delicately simmering potion........I can teach you to brew love and stopper death, if you aren't as big a group of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." (iexact quote, my copy of SS is lent out right now.) I hope I'm not a dunderhead, because what I really do appreciate in JKR's books are the characterizations, the rest - the clever plays on words, the action, the whole Potterverse, are ornaments to me. What I love is finding out more about the complex characters. Robyn If anyone wants to go OT with me to discuss Austen, I'd love it! :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > When I read Joanne Kathleen Rowling, I see the Jane Austen influence > > through-out her works. The very subtle touches. The refusal to > sink > to soap-opera melodrama. The gentle satire and the delicate irony. > > The meticulous plotting. The careful introduction of innocuous > details that later become critical. The 3-D characters. Their > subtle, but real growth. It's all Austen. > > It came as no surprise to me when JKR stated on several occasions > that > Jane Austen is her favorite writer. I remember reading HP for the > first time and admiring her Austen-like touches. Mind you, they > don't > match the master, but her influence is very much there. I kept > thinking, this writer has either read Austen or should read Austen. > > She had taken the best of Austen without being a slave to her. > > Do not get me wrong. I think Rowling is a master. My point is > she's > learned from the best. Now she's shining in her own light. > > Marcus > > P.S.: I would love to discuss Jane Austen, especially her > masterpiece, > "Pride and Prejudice"; but not here. It is a bit OT, unfortunately. > > We've already pushed the limits with our Gandalf discussion. :( > > > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From heraldtalia at juno.com Sun Aug 19 03:26:04 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:26:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Minister of Magic - Marauder's Map - Eton - good/evil - Loopy Lupin - Robes - Apparation - McGonagall's Spouse - Dementors Message-ID: <20010818.234942.-137069.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24474 > Robyn Herald Talia (is that an SCA name?) wrote: > > He is also acting out of extreme selfishness, > > which seems to be the essence of evil (snip) > > Good is selflessness, a giving up of self for > > others. Evil is the opposite. And Rita wrote. > Wise, scholarly, virtuous, and personally heroic people have stated > that > definition, but I find it defective. If 'good' = 'giving up of self > for > others', than 'good' = a young and healthy and not at all suicidal > person who enjoys life shooting himself in the brain on the front > doorstep of a hospital so as to make his organs available for > transplant.' Hi, just replying to my part. (BTW Herald Talia is just my favorite character in all of fantasydom. I use it for listserves, only. ) The "good" suicide person that you mentioned would be accomplishing a good at the expense of an evil. That would not be good. Harry prevents Sirius and Lupin from killing Peter (something good, or at least something just.) because he doesn't want them to do something evil to accomplish something good. When Sirius tells Harry about Barty Crouch, Sr. he talks about the way ol' Barty allowed very harsh measures against the Death Eaters, and was not in favor. That would make the wizards just like the Death Eaters, it seemed to imply. Suicide is also an essentially selfish act, even for the purposes of organ donation.Therefore, suicide contains elements of evil. All the problems that the suicide ended it all to not have to face, now have to be faced by others. Suicide also cheats whatever entity you believe in - it gave the individual life to accomplish something, and the individual is so ungrateful, it ends that life. I would define "good" as someone who would endure the pain of bone marrow or kidney donation to give life to another. And I would define as "evil" a suicide who chooses to take as many innocent people as he can with him, in order to give his death meaning. Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 19 04:18:32 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 04:18:32 -0000 Subject: True Prediction In-Reply-To: <20010818.234942.-137069.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lnemo+si6p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24475 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > I thought the humor of that was that her vague predictions were sort of > true, after all. I don't think any of them were true Sight - that was > just Sibyll being Sibyll. It works the way the Psychic Hotline works - > because it's vague. We know her real Sight occurs when she goes into a > trance. > BTW - another signal flag is Dumbledore's saying this was her second true > prediction, I should give her a raise. What was the first prediction? > That could be very important. According to JKR in an interview, it's very important and we'll find out later. I agree with some others around here who think it has something to do with predicting that Harry would bring the downfall of Voldemort (or perhaps that Gryffindor's heir would ultimately destroy Slytherin's heir). This prediction is known to Voldemort and that is why he is trying to wipe out all of the Potter family, the last remaining heir of Gryffindor. NOTE: This is NOT canon, this is my guess. We don't KNOW that Harry is Gryffindor's last remaining heir. But it seems to make sense. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From rth_adidas at hotmail.com Sun Aug 19 05:10:34 2001 From: rth_adidas at hotmail.com (rth_adidas at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 05:10:34 -0000 Subject: Harry's Godmother Message-ID: <9lnhoa+serj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24476 I am a new member of HPforGrownups and have been in the background for awhile just reading the posts and marvelling at the ideas and thought going into the posts. Hopefully this might measure up to this groups standard. After reading PoA for the second time I began to wonder does Harry also have a godmother because most people will have a godfather and godmother. After GoF I came up with the idea that Arabella Figg was Harry's godmother butDumbledore decided that Harry needed to get away from the wizarding world as stated in SS/PS. From joym999 at aol.com Sun Aug 19 05:19:30 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 05:19:30 -0000 Subject: New stuff at the WB site In-Reply-To: <9lm0qo+8al0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lni92+fjk7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24477 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > The official WB site has some nice bios for the characters and actors > who portray them. They even have some tidbits of info like Mr. > Malfoy's position at the MOM > > http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/bios/ > Has anyone else read these bios? Am I the only one appalled by them? They are full of misinformation, misspelled words, and were written by someone who clearly has a very, very poor command of the English language. Call me compulsive, but I feel that a website which children will be reading should not have sentences like "This is Ron's first year at the school, but unfortunately not that of his clothes who have been passed down from brother to brother" and "He (Dumbledore) always has a watchful eye on Harry and the other school's pupils." (What other school?) In five minutes of reading I found 3 or 4 misspellings and about 20 grammar errors. Doesn't Warner Brothers own a spell checker? And instead of the "Chudley Cannons" they write that Ron's favorite Quidditch team is the "Chutney Chasers." Who writes this stuff? I would recommend that we discount any information from this site. --Joywitch From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 19 05:23:54 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 05:23:54 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg Message-ID: <9lniha+44lm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24478 I found it! Post 1429 from Thu Sep 14, 2000, from Blaise: On another egroup that I belong to (hpslash), someone who was at the Edinburgh Book Festival posted a message about some of the things JKR said about the books, and I thought you might be rather interested... <<- Mrs Figg is a squib. Godric's Hollow (where is that again?) is gonna be very important as is Snape and the whole thing with Harry's eyes! She says Snape could still turn out to be either bad or good but she's not telling us which. The really big death comes in book five. She has already written the very final chapter of the whole series. The Dark Mark chapter in the GoF was a killer for her to write - she rewrote it about 9 times and ended up thinking she'd never be able to finish it.>> Also 4175 from Fri Oct 20, 2000 and from Blaise: from the B&N chat, Quotation marks for direct quotes. Does Arabella Figg have an important role in the later books. -'You'll be seeing Mrs Figg in Book 5 and you'll find out all about her.' I believe the following is from the Scholastic chat of that same October 2000: Q: Is the Mrs. Figg with all the cats in the Dursleys' nneighborhood the same Arabella Figg that Dumbledore mentioned at the end of book 4? JKR: Well spotted!!! From oppen at cnsinternet.com Sun Aug 19 06:06:39 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:06:39 -0500 Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart---a couple ofhorrid thoughts Message-ID: <008001c12875$1d6f4280$dac71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 24479 You know, it occurs to me that if Lockhart had been even more ruthless than he was, he could have used his charisma for even worse things than he did. Just imagine how many students he could have seduced, if he had been inclined to do so. Another Lockhart-related question: If he had been exposed as the fraud and liar he was, _without_ losing his memory in the process, do you think he'd ever have been let out of Azkaban? At the _very_ least, I'd expect a wizard court to order him to pay heavy reimbursement to the wizards and witches whose deeds he'd "appropriated," and his publishers would probably also be out for a big chunk of his hide. As for trying to leave Ginny there to just die---I think that if Molly and Arthur Weasley found out about _that,_ all of a sudden Azkaban wouldn't look like such a bad place to be---out in the ocean and _safe._ Molly Weasley *speaking very slowly and deceptively gently*: Let me see if I've got this straight...you _knew_ where my baby daughter was...and you proposed to _leave_ her there to _die?_ *a beat* I'LL KILL YOU! I'LL MOIDILIZE YOU! I'LL RIP YOUR LUNGS OUT AND MAKE A MILKSHAKE WITH THEM! GIVE ME MY WAND! From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 19 06:57:47 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 06:57:47 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: <9lniha+44lm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lno1b+lul7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24480 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > I found it! Post 1429 from Thu Sep 14, 2000, from Blaise: > > On another egroup that I belong to (hpslash), someone who was at the > Edinburgh Book Festival posted a message about some of the things JKR > said about the books, and I thought you might be rather interested... Unfortunately, this is second hand and therefore I can't consider it to be canon for Lexicon purposes. I know that sounds harsh, but there are an awful lot of things flying around that someone said JKR said. This one sounds fairly reliable, but I wouldn't dare put it on the Arabella Figg page. Anyone have a transcript of that speech/interview? Certainly makes her an interesting character, though, doesn't it. Squib, living for years among Muggles to protect Harry...so what's up with the cats then? Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From djtarb at aol.com Sun Aug 19 11:52:13 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 07:52:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animal forms (was married staff) Message-ID: <12d.33f5a8f.28b1026d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24481 In a message dated Sat, 18 Aug 2001 3:13:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Amy Z" writes: > Anyhoo, > what were your thoughts on the difference between willing and > unwilling transfigurations? > I've been thinking that there might be an entire group of wizards who were transformed into animals during the previous war against V and who can't get back... this springs largely from my speculations about Crookshanks, I'm afraid, and he's been explained pretty well, now. But still... Diane in PA From lumen-dei at freeler.nl Sun Aug 19 12:01:13 2001 From: lumen-dei at freeler.nl (Lumen) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:01:13 +0200 Subject: Mad-eye Moody References: <12d.33f5a8f.28b1026d@aol.com> Message-ID: <002c01c128a6$a7f332a0$9995153e@poorclar> No: HPFGUIDX 24482 I wanted to share the beginning of an article about Mad-Eye Moody that I recently posted at the site; I'm working up the courage to do a type of clip notes on book one, so this is part of my practice sessions! MAD-EYE MOODY Let's face it: it was love at first bounce the moment that ferret reached seven feet. Mad-Eye Moody was the instant hero of millions. The show we had all been longing for had begun. Funny, while we stood mesmerized watching the rise and fall of the flipping ferret, we missed the real show, the greatest act on earth; or to put it more precisely: the greatest actor. The Cannes Festival and Hollywood missed their cue too. Barty Crouch Jr. wasn't even mentioned when the oscars were being passed around. He gave the performance of a lifetime, in more ways than one, and no one knew to clap.... Once I recovered from the shock and stinging disappointment, for ol' Mad-Eye had me completely spellbound, a fascination bordering on obsession grew and grew. There is this burning desire to cry out each time I re-read GOF, "Will the real Barty Crouch Jr. please stand up!" How much of it was acting --utterly brilliant-- and how much seeped up from the unconscious remains of the person who could have been? "Your name's Longbottom?" You would think that he would choke to say the name. He was one of the four who stood towering above the writhing Frank Longbottom until they had crushed the sanity out of the man. Barty could recognize the child that Frank and his wife no longer knew. ..... continued at http://www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/wink-gob3.html#madeye P.S. The screen saver contest is going marvelouslly - 150 winners Maria Lumen Dei lumen-dei at freeler.nl www.the-sorting-hat.com From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Aug 19 13:15:34 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 13:15:34 -0000 Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart---a couple of horrid thoughts In-Reply-To: <008001c12875$1d6f4280$dac71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9loe5m+oh88@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24483 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > You know, it occurs to me that if Lockhart had been even more ruthless than he was, he could have used his charisma for even worse things than he did. Just imagine how many students he could have seduced, if he had been inclined to do so.> I am so glad you included the word "horrid" in your posting title, because Lockhart is possibly my least favorite character of all 4 books. A while back I started a thread called "Lockhart - Yuck", explaining how much I disliked him. There was another thread discussing Lockhart and how, even if he wasn't associated with Voldemort, was still quite evil because of his accomplishment stealing and apathy towards Ginny. Lockhart is a bad guy. He wasn't funny to me from his introduction to us at Flourish and Blotts and he sure as hell wasn't funny when he was down in the Chamber of Secrets, ready to let Ginny die and to wipe out the memories of two 12 year old kids. People that self-centered can be frightening even without being wizards on top of it. I like your idea - I say let Molly Weasley have a go at Lockhart! --jenny from ravenclaw************************************ From birdy739 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 19 13:18:28 2001 From: birdy739 at hotmail.com (Kelly Shiflet) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 09:18:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs Figg Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24484 >Certainly makes her an interesting character, though, doesn't it. >Squib, living for years among Muggles to protect Harry...so what's up >with the cats then? > >Steve Vander Ark Actually, I think that's a good question.... Simply because, well, Filch has a cat; Mrs.Norris. And those two are practically joined at the hip, and they seem to understand each other. So, I guess the question is: What is with Squibs and their cats? . * . (\ *** /) . * . * . * ( \(_)/ ) * . * . * . (_/| |\_) . * . * . * /_____\ * . * >From: "Steve Vander Ark" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs Figg >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 06:57:47 -0000 > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > wrote: > > I found it! Post 1429 from Thu Sep 14, 2000, from Blaise: > > > > On another egroup that I belong to (hpslash), someone who was at >the > > Edinburgh Book Festival posted a message about some of the things >JKR > > said about the books, and I thought you might be rather >interested... > >Unfortunately, this is second hand and therefore I can't consider it >to be canon for Lexicon purposes. I know that sounds harsh, but there >are an awful lot of things flying around that someone said JKR said. >This one sounds fairly reliable, but I wouldn't dare put it on the >Arabella Figg page. > >Anyone have a transcript of that speech/interview? > >The Harry Potter Lexicon >http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 13:23:27 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 06:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dragons: Rowling v. McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <20010817.014752.-152069.0.tkoz1@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010819132327.90016.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24485 Robyn, If you are Weyr bred then you must know that if you ask any weyr pair they will tell you that their partner is the most cuddly and comfortable thing they have ever seen. I'll grant you that the main appeal is in the interpersonal relationships but Prefect Marcus is right, compared to Rowlings dragons McCaffery's dragons are downright cuddly. Danette PS Besides I always thought Ruth was the most adorable thing I'd ever seen. :) --- Yis M Koslowitz wrote: > Alright, I hear what you are saying. I still don't > see them as cuddly - > they do have teeth and fight. McCafferey is > generally more interested in > feminine things - interpersonal relationships, > particularly the close > human/other love - the perfect acceptance/soulmate > thing. That is a > stereotypically female preadolescent fantasy. So the > premise is somewhat > touchy/feely in that sense. > But why do JKR's dragons have to be dinosaurs? Can't > they just be enraged > beasts of any sort - governed by instinct - in this > case to protect their > young. I don't see them as particularly malevolent > when not threatened. > They don't hunt out humans to kill, in the way that > Calvin's dinosaur > does. And by the way, Calvin does have that perfect > soulmate/other in > Hobbes. > In which case, I will borrow a concept from another > series - David > Eddings Belgariad, where the sorceress Polgara > speaks the language of the > birds but realizes they really don't have much to > say. The HH doesn't > have much to say - a bellow of rage covers it all. > > Robyn, still Weyrbred, and perfectly capable of > breathing fire. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From heraldtalia at juno.com Sun Aug 19 13:42:59 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 09:42:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs Figg Message-ID: <20010819.094816.-194543.1.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24486 There's fantasy literature where the cat has the magic of the person, the non talented person who is actually so talented that he unconsciously transfers his magic to a harmless form lest he harm someone. There's also all those fables where the wizard's heart and source of magical power is in a creature and to defeat the wizard, you defeat the creature. Or there's a magical parasite idea, where the cat is actually stealing the wizard's power. Any of these would work, they've all been done, though. I wonder where JKR is taking this - she always has her own unique spin on typical things in the literature. Robyn On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 09:18:28 -0400 "Kelly Shiflet" writes: > >Certainly makes her an interesting character, though, doesn't it. > >Squib, living for years among Muggles to protect Harry...so what's > up > >with the cats then? > > > >Steve Vander Ark > Actually, I think that's a good question.... Simply because, well, > Filch has > a cat; Mrs.Norris. And those two are practically joined at the hip, > and they > seem to understand each other. So, I guess the question is: What is > with > Squibs and their cats? > > . * . (\ *** /) . * . > * . * ( \(_)/ ) * . * > . * . (_/| |\_) . * . > * . * /_____\ * . * > > > > >From: "Steve Vander Ark" > >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs Figg > >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 06:57:47 -0000 > > > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > > wrote: > > > I found it! Post 1429 from Thu Sep 14, 2000, from Blaise: > > > > > > On another egroup that I belong to (hpslash), someone who was at > >the > > > Edinburgh Book Festival posted a message about some of the > things > >JKR > > > said about the books, and I thought you might be rather > >interested... > > > >Unfortunately, this is second hand and therefore I can't consider > it > >to be canon for Lexicon purposes. I know that sounds harsh, but > there > >are an awful lot of things flying around that someone said JKR > said. > >This one sounds fairly reliable, but I wouldn't dare put it on the > >Arabella Figg page. > > > >Anyone have a transcript of that speech/interview? > > > > >The Harry Potter Lexicon > >http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From heraldtalia at juno.com Sun Aug 19 13:39:46 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 09:39:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dragons: Rowling v. McCaffrey Message-ID: <20010819.094816.-194543.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24487 Danette wrote. > Robyn, If you are Weyr bred then you must know that if > you ask any Weyr pair they will tell you that their > partner is the most cuddly and comfortable thing they > have ever seen. I'll grant you that the main appeal > is in the interpersonal relationships but Prefect > Marcus is right, compared to Rowlings dragons > McCaffrey's dragons are downright cuddly. > PS Besides I always thought Ruth was the most adorable > thing I'd ever seen. :) McCaffrey's dragons do breathe fire, go into killing rages, and have been created to be weapons. Basically, JKR's dragons are beasts, there doesn't seem to be too much intelligence and they REALLY seem ruled by instincts. McCaffrey's dragons are intelligent - they are human in a lot of ways, just in beast guise. They are the perfect "other" - a variation on a witch with a familiar. (Mercedes's Lackey's Companions, and a lot of other examples in fantasy/sci fi literature.) They're hardly Tribbles, though. Ruth was cuddly - but Ruth was a sport, meant to be left to die, and not bred to fight at all. The fire lizards are cuddly, though. Ok, I'll say it about another author - McCaffrey's *done* dragons, and done that particular kind of dragon so well that anyone else is a pathetic imitator. Rowling takes them in a different direction, and someone already said, this is refreshing. My next question is about Buckbeak, and hypogriffs in general. How intelligent is he? He doesn't seem to get it when Harry and Hermione are trying to save him, he keeps trying to go to Hagrid. But he seems more intelligent in GoF with Sirius. What gives? Robyn, who really has to stop going OT to defend dragons. (Does the fact that I think they need defending mean they really are cuddly? Perish the thought!) ; - ) From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Sun Aug 19 15:34:33 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 15:34:33 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Figg Message-ID: <9loma9+pjvd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24488 If Arabella Figg is a Squib, though, how was she supposed to be able to protect Harry? Voldemort does mention that Harry is protected at Privet Drive, doesn't he? She may not be stationed there to protect him, granted, but can it really be a coincidence that she lives nearby and has taken care of him? To me, that seems like kind of a sentry. And if she's a member of Dumbledore's 'old crowd', with people like the Potters, Remus Lupin and Sirius Black, all of whom seem to be/have been exceptionally talented, it's hard to believe she has no magical powers at all. The 'old crowd' may not be what I think it is, but the inference is pretty clear(to me at least): it's a small group of civilian witches and wizards who fought against Voldemort, kind of like the resistance movements in the occupied countries during WWII. Or does someone have a better idea? Bente From heraldtalia at juno.com Sun Aug 19 15:29:21 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:29:21 -0400 Subject: Spell Mechanics Message-ID: <20010819.112926.-136955.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24489 What are some of the mechanics of spell casting in the Potterverse? The Summoning Charm, for example - is it limited to line-of-sight? Mrs. Weasley certainally used it to find Ton-tongue Toffees that she didn't see. If it's more long distance, why couldn't Harry just Summon the diary when it was stolen from him? (CoS - when Ginny steals TR's diary back from Harry.) Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From litalex at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 15:52:39 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:52:39 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things I can't bear in the Taiwanese/Chinese versions References: <9ln5cc+phll@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00cd01c128c7$2bb88340$4d06bacb@hal9000> No: HPFGUIDX 24490 Hello, From: > The ridiculous part is Cho Chong -- the translator didn't even bother > to change her name back to the Chinese ordering i.e. Surname first, > then given name. It's very glaring. So, how *did* they translate Cho Chang? I assume her surname is, um, the character that has the word "bow" on the left and "long" on the right; her given name... I don't know. > Can't they get someone who can actually write Chinese? Ah, but that'd go against all the rules of English to Chinese translation! little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From hyria at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 15:55:10 2001 From: hyria at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Incitatus?=) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 16:55:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spell Mechanics In-Reply-To: <20010819.112926.-136955.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010819155510.57760.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24491 Herald Talia wrote: > What are some of the mechanics of spell casting in > the Potterverse? > The Summoning Charm, for example - is it limited to > line-of-sight? Mrs. > Weasley certainally used it to find Ton-tongue > Toffees that she didn't > see. If it's more long distance, why couldn't Harry > just Summon the diary > when it was stolen from him? (CoS - when Ginny > steals TR's diary back > from Harry.) IIRC Harry didn't actually learn the summoning charm until GoF which is quite a pressing reason for him not using it to retrieve the diary in CoS:) ~Catriona~ ===== Go on ... Kiss a Dementor today! ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From john at walton.to Sun Aug 19 16:03:53 2001 From: john at walton.to (john at walton.to) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 12:03:53 EDT Subject: Spell Mechanics Message-ID: <2d.1039c3bf.28b13d69@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24492 Herald Talia said: > What are some of the mechanics of spell casting in the Potterverse? > The Summoning Charm, for example - is it limited to line-of-sight? Mrs. > Weasley certainally used it to find Ton-tongue Toffees that she didn't > see. Didn't Harry Accio his firebolt to use against the Horntail (I can never remember the task numbers...d'oh! I theorise that it's line of sight for things that you are not very familiar with. For instance, a Quidditch player like Harry could easily Accio his broom because he spends a lot of time on it. Similarly, Hermione could probably Accio "Hogwarts: A History" fairly easily. > If it's more long distance, why couldn't Harry just Summon the diary > when it was stolen from him? (CoS - when Ginny steals TR's diary back > from Harry.) Perhaps it's as simple as the fact that he hadn't learned that spell yet? ::grin:: It would seem like a good idea, wouldn't it? --John, whose messages are being really delayed today. ::cries:: ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to "Correction. Last week's column mistakenly identified a source. The European Commission President is Romano Prodi, not Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Second Hand regrets the error." --Prague Post, Czech Republic. ________________________________ From john at walton.to Sun Aug 19 16:07:13 2001 From: john at walton.to (john at walton.to) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 12:07:13 EDT Subject: Fools Rush In Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24493 Second time of sending -- my email is being floozy today. Sorry for any duplication. Ebony AKA AngieJ said: > Also, John, the one-post-a-day restriction isn't prohibitive at > all... if you want to answer multiple threads, you answer them all in > one post OR you respond to the thread that you can contribute the > most to. And there's not this idea on that particular list on heavy > Mod enforcement, so it's not like they monitored member posts. It's > in the club FAQs so new members know. As I said, I think it would be a great idea -- IF people read the FAQs in the first place! The great newbies already do, and that's wonderful, and we love them dearly, and they become assimilated into the group almost instantaneously. HOWEVER, the people who don't read the FAQs post umpteen factual question messages and then wonder why people get a trifle snippy when saying "Look at this page at the Lexicon/in the VFAQ/in the abbreviations file". This leads to bad list karma and newbie barbecue, so the list gets a bad name because hErMoiNE_LuvR_2001 was told in no uncertain terms to RTFM. (Read The Footling Manual) > I have broken the one-post-a-day rule on KS at least a half dozen > times... BUT because such a rule existed, I was mindful every time I > broke it and tried to make sure my postings were relevant. The > unspoken Netiquette is "one post a day, two if it's an emergency" and > it does help keep volume way, way down and discussion at a higher > level IMO. I'm sure it does and I'm not calling that into doubt at all. The problem is, as I said above, the people who obey it are the ones who aren't going to flood the list with not-too-great messages. The people who disobey it are going to ignore whatever decision we make, and the issue that I have with this idea is its enforceability. Short of giving an Elf the unenviable task of looking through an entire 24-hour period of messages for doubles or triples, there really is no way to do it that I can see. If I'm missing something, please yell now. > I think such a posting cap ought to have been instituted a while > back. As it stands, I really think it's too late to do anything > about it now anyway. I agree that it's too late to do anything about it now, and will cheerfully disagree with you about posting caps. ::schnoogle:: > Just trying not to complain without bringing up viable solutions. I sincerely appreciate that. ::another schnoogle:: --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to "Correction. Last week's column mistakenly identified a source. The European Commission President is Romano Prodi, not Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Second Hand regrets the error." --Prague Post, Czech Republic. ________________________________ From john at walton.to Sun Aug 19 16:11:41 2001 From: john at walton.to (john at walton.to) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 12:11:41 EDT Subject: ADMIN: Add your thoughts regarding our groups' future Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24494 Second time of sending, sorry. Email is floozy today... I've just put up a database in the Main List's Database section which has a bunch of blank spaces for us all to fill in our ideas, hopes, dreams, likes and dislikes about what we can do to make the groups of HPFGU an enjoyable place for everyone, new or old. The direct link is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=9 Add your thoughts, no matter what they are (except, perhaps, for "burn all people who can't spell right all the time at the stake"). The Moderators *need* to hear them in order to make informed decisions about the future of the group. Yours, for the Moderator Group, --John Walton __________________________________________ John Walton / Crazy Ivan HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47 @ john at walton.to YM johnwalton_crazyivan ModMail hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com READ OUR ADMIN FILES! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ __________________________________________ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 19 17:30:07 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 17:30:07 -0000 Subject: Spell Mechanics In-Reply-To: <20010819.112926.-136955.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lot2v+bnop@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24495 Robyn wrote: > What are some of the mechanics of spell casting in the Potterverse? > The Summoning Charm, for example - is it limited to line-of-sight? Definitely not. Harry's worried he won't be able to Summon the Firebolt because it'll be so far away, and Hermione says it makes no difference--and she's right. They even contemplate Summoning an aqualung for task #2, but decide it would attract too much Muggle attention. I love the image of scuba equipment soaring over hill and dale. I wonder about locks and such. Harry wishes for his knife when he's underwater, but it was "locked in his trunk in the castle a quarter of a mile away, no use to him whatsoever" (GoF 26). Is this a case of his forgetting his newly-learned charm, the way he does in the previous chapter (when he could have saved himself a lot of trouble, and incidentally short-circuited the entire plot, by Summoning the map)? Or, and this is what I reckon, is it impossible to Summon it because it's locked up? He'd need to add unlocking charms. Closed doors, I'm confident, don't stop a Summoned object. The Firebolt probably had to get through several: definitely the portrait hole and the front door, probably the dorm door as well. I wonder if the doors swing open and shut again, or does the object just sail right through them . . . ? Amy Z Maple, unicorn hair, 9 inches according to Joywitch Ollivander Curmudgeon From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 19 18:05:58 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:05:58 -0000 Subject: Horrid Lockhart - Mrs. Figg - Cho's Name - Summoning Spells Message-ID: <9lov66+mbeq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24496 Eric Oppen wrote: > You know, it occurs to me that if Lockhart had been even more > ruthless than he was, he could have used his charisma for even > worse things than he did. Just imagine how many students he could > have seduced, if he had been inclined to do so. I have always felt that Lockhart had no interest in sex, not even the mere physical sensations, because *ALL* his energies and interests were so focussed on admiring himself -- so much 'himself' that he wouldn't bother to have sex with anyone else, and so much 'admiring' that he would just gaze ecstatically at himself rather than touching. It is also arguable whether seducing a student would have been worse than trying to kill a student, or trying to Memory Charm students. Bente wrote: > If [Mrs] Figg is a Squib, though, how was she supposed to be able > to protect Harry? It could be that it was the 'ancient magic' invoked by Dumbledore that *protected* Harry, and Mrs Figg was posted there by Dumbledore only to keep watch on him, and report back to Dumbledore. How much did Dumbledore know about the Dursleys trying to keep Harry from magic when he sent Hagrid to fetch Harry? > And if she's a member of Dumbledore's 'old crowd', Maybe we jumped too fast to conclude that Mrs Figg is Arabella -- maybe Arabella Figg is her daughter, maybe the same age as Sirius and Remus rather than the same age as Mundungus. Little Alex wrote: > So, how *did* they translate Cho Chang? In message number 21025, Cai Hui (where has she gone?!) wrote: "OTOH, "Cho" could be a Chinese name as well. It could mean "autumn" (the chinese translator thought so), which is a plausible enough name for a Chinese girl. Or it could mean "surpass," which is kind of boyish, but not so bad either." In message number 21033, she wrote: "There're at least two possibilites for the surname "Chang." One of them came from a place name (snip) The other is even more interesting. It is formed by two different characters which combined means "a long bow"." Amy Z wrote: > I love the image of scuba equipment soaring over hill and dale. > I wonder about locks and such. (snip) > Closed doors, I'm confident, don't stop a Summoned object. The > Firebolt probably had to get through several (snip) I wonder if > the doors swing open and shut again, or does the object just sail > right through them . . . ? I wonder whether the aqualung WOULD have levitated across Muggle territory, or do objects that were Summoned over a long distance kind of go 'between' like I imagine post owls do? If yes, closed doors wouldn't matter. If no, maybe Harry carefully left the window of his dorm room open so that the Firebolt could fly out through the window and avoid all those closed door. Love, Catlady, who expects to post every 2 or 3 hours today, and would feel STIFLED by a one post a day or two post a day rule. From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 19 18:10:49 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:10:49 -0000 Subject: Horrid Lockhart - Mrs. Figg - Cho's Name - Summoning Spells In-Reply-To: <9lov66+mbeq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lovf9+clgg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24497 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > And if she's a member of Dumbledore's 'old crowd', > > Maybe we jumped too fast to conclude that Mrs Figg is Arabella -- > maybe Arabella Figg is her daughter, maybe the same age as > Sirius and Remus rather than the same age as Mundungus. This isn't just jumping to conclusions. JKR stated it specifically in the Blue Peter show interview. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/figg.html Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 19 18:40:18 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:40:18 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle Message-ID: <9lp16i+gcnq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24498 The way that Witches and Wizards think about everything, including spells, is completely different from the way we Muggles think about it. We ask questions like "Does it have to be line of sight?" that they would never think to ask. We are used to Muggle physics and Muggle limitations. Witches and Wizards are used to Wizard physics and Wizard limitations. That makes all the difference in the world. In fact, it is literally a different world. A great example of this is Molly Weasley's reaction to the fact that the Anglia fits so much inside its trunk and can seat five people across the back seat comfortably. It doesn't strike her as the least bit odd, and just assumes that the Muggles made it that way. But we, as Muggles, would be unable to comprehend how such a thing could be. Our world and life view, our structure for how things work, is so utterly different from the way Witches and Wizards see it that we have a difficult time understanding the way magic works. Molly, on the other hand, can't understand our notion of space and physics, which is based on science and technology. A car that couldn't hold more when necessary would make her do a double-take. Remember Ron (was it Ron?) poking Dean Thomas's poster of West Ham United, trying to make it move? It just didn't make sense to him. Consider that the physical laws that govern our world--cause and effect, action and reaction, conservation of energy, that sort of thing--are secondary in the Wizard way of seeing things. For them, the key is intention and power. Does Molly have to see something to Accio it, or even know exactly what that thing is? Nope. She has the intention and power to make that Accio spell do exactly what she wants. Harry, as he's learning it, needs to specify, even see the object in question. But by the time he's summoning the Triwizard Cup in the graveyard, he has all the intention and power he needs, almost without realizing it, to make exactly what he wants come directly to him. No specific target is needed except the desperate focus of his own mind, which, we are learning, is incredible indeed. Once you free your mind of the shackles of Muggle physics, magic becomes that much more understandable, and it soon becomes obvious that magic is really the manipulation of magical power by the intention and focus (by means of a wand and words, usually) of the caster. The exact physics of the spell--how it works, how it's cast, what it does--is different every time, because physical laws arent' involved, emotions and intentions are. That means that a spell could have a markedly different effect depending on the cirsumstances of it's casting (such as Expelliarmus actually throwing Lockhart against the wall, since Snape's intentions caused a somewhat more violent result). It also means that Hermione can create a spell on the spot (Mobiliarbus, which literally suggests moving a tree...you can't tell me that third year Hogwarts students have learned spells to move trees...she made it up on the spot, using her intention and her understanding of the language of spellwork). In it's purest form, magic requires no words and even no wand. We see Dumbledore using magic this way, or close to it, almost every time he does it. There are three properties to a spell, and physical laws aren't involved at all. The three are intention, focus of power, and focus of mind. The intention comes first, obviously, since the spell caster needs to intend to do something. Then the spell words are used to focus the mind on the action desired, sometimes with the assistance of a specific thought pattern. These two are intertwined, since the words often marshall the mental processes, but sometimes a certain type of thought is required first, such as the happy thought to trigger a defense against Dementors. Then the wand is waved in a specific pattern to focus and direct the magical power of the caster's body toward the goal. All of these things work together to create an effect which simply does not obey any of our Muggle scientific laws. If we think like Muggles, this is truly, utterly, unbelievably amazing. That's part of what makes the books so much fun. But if we could truly think like Wizards, it would be completely normal, even mundane. And for kicks, you would read comics about Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle. I invite you all to read some of the essays on the Lexicon about the nature of magic. I have had the good fortune to have contributions to the Lexicon from some of the finest minds in the Muggle world in this area. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From vivi75 at mac.com Sun Aug 19 19:08:09 2001 From: vivi75 at mac.com (Michelle V.) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 09:08:09 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Buckbeak In-Reply-To: <20010819.094816.-194543.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> References: <20010819.094816.-194543.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24499 Hello, newbie here. With all the discussion about the list membership over on Chatter, I figured that I should at least delurk for a bit to add my two cents. Robyn wrote: > My next question is about Buckbeak, and hypogriffs in general. How >intelligent is he? >He doesn't seem to get it when Harry and Hermione are trying to save him, >he keeps trying to go to Hagrid. But he seems more intelligent in GoF >with Sirius. What gives? I've been wondering about this also, and I've come up with a satisfactory answer, at least for me. My theory is that animagi (some of them, at least) are "sensitive" to regular animals, and this sensitivity gets stronger the longer the animagus is in animal form. Since Sirius spent most of PoA in his dog-form, his mind had been habituated to that of a regular dog. Even when Sirius is back in human form, some residual effects of this phenomenon are still present. The result of all this is that Sirius garnered a special rapport with Buckbeak. I've had to limit this phenomenon to Sirius only (so far), since the other animagi mentioned in the books (Professor McGonnagal, Pettigrew, Skeeter) don't seem to exhibit the same behavior. Pettigrew was Scabbers for years, and I didn't see any difference in his behavior towards regular animals. I'm not sure where lycanthropes like Lupin (I love alliteration :) ) would fit into this theory either. Considering that they're not aware of what they do in their wolf-forms, I'm guessing that they wouldn't have the same rapport with animals. Sirus is a special case in more ways than one, it seems... -- Michelle V. From john at walton.to Sat Aug 18 01:28:14 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:28:14 -0400 Subject: ADMIN: New Policy Regarding Fanfiction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24500 Hi all, John here for the Mods again. With the recent arrival of the wonderful fanfiction archive resource at FictionAlley.org (run partially but in no way entirely by HPforGrownups grownups) to supplement the existing HP-related fanfic archives, the HPforGrownups Moderators have decided that, for reasons of space in our Files Section, we're going to ask everyone to please move their fanfic to FictionAlley.org or elsewhere (HP_FanFiction or SugarQuill, for example). You've got a couple of weeks before we start sending out emails to say "we're going to take this off the site", so the sooner the better! FictionAlley is a great, HP-fandom only Fanfiction site, which has four houses: Schnoogle.com for novel-length fics, TheDarkArts.org for angsty-darkficcy-types, AstronomyTower.org for those lovely lovely romances and Riddikulus.org for humor and comedy. Stop by today -- no need to register to read or discuss HP fanfiction, and uploading as an author is REALLY easy! Cheers, --John For the Moderator Team ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to "Winter is icummen in, lhude sing Goddamm, Raineth drop and staineth slop, and how the wind doth ramm! Sing: Goddamm! Skiddeth bus and sloppeth us, an ague hath my ham." --Ezra Pound, to be sung to "Sumer Is Icumen In" ________________________________ From becky_watts at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 19 19:39:27 2001 From: becky_watts at yahoo.co.uk (becky_watts at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:39:27 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <20010818.234941.-137069.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lp4lh+rbag@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24501 Mrs Figg is also absurdly fond of her cats. Could it be that Crookshanks is somehow related to Mrs Figg ?? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > . The person given > > the > > job of protecting Harry (in my never to be humble opinion) is > > Arabella Figg. It's surely no coincidence that she has taken care of > > > > him every time the Dursleys have had something fun to do. It is > > implied that there are protections in place around 4 Privet Drive, > > and in addition to charms (Fidelius and otherwise), I'm sure > > Arabella > > has something to do with it. I can't wait until Harry figures out > > that all the time he spent in her cabbage smelling living room > > looking at pictures of cats, was spent with a witch! > > > > Bente > > Knowing what we know about Memory Charms, was harry *really* looking at > pictures of cats during his visits with Mrs. Figg? > Robyn From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 19 19:47:57 2001 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:47:57 -0000 Subject: Not the first LOTR movie Message-ID: <9lp55d+ipc6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24502 This will not be the first lord Of The Rings movie, they made a big budget animation film in 1978 that covered the first book and half of the second, it ended rather abruptly. At the time it was the most expensive animated movie ever made, if you count real non inflated dollars it might still be. It did OK at the box office but was not a huge hit as expected so the plans to make a second film and finish the story got scraped. Interestedly John Hurt was the voice of Aragon, in the new Harry Potter movie he will play Mr. Ollivander. Eggplant From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 20:57:24 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:57:24 -0000 Subject: Spell Mechanics In-Reply-To: <9lot2v+bnop@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lp97k+j7lj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24503 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Closed doors, I'm confident, don't stop a Summoned object. The > Firebolt probably had to get through several: definitely the portrait > hole and the front door, probably the dorm door as well. I wonder if > the doors swing open and shut again, or does the object just sail > right through them . . . ? > > Amy Z > Or maybe he just left his window open? ;) From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Aug 19 21:08:05 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:08:05 -0000 Subject: Not the first LOTR movie In-Reply-To: <9lp55d+ipc6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lp9rl+konn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24504 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote: > This will not be the first lord Of The Rings movie, they made a big > budget animation film in 1978 that covered the first book and half of > the second, it ended rather abruptly. At the time it was the most > expensive animated movie ever made, if you count real non inflated > dollars it might still be. It did OK at the box office but was not a > huge hit as expected so the plans to make a second film and finish > the story got scraped. Interestedly John Hurt was the voice of > Aragon, in the new Harry Potter movie he will play Mr. Ollivander. > It was directed by Ralph Bakshi, best known for Fritz the Cat (the post-South Park generation may not appreciate the shock value that cute animated cartoon characters spewing four-letter words had back in the early 70s). The failure of LOTR seems to have thrown Bakshi's career off-track - besides not being able to complete LOTR, he's done little of importance since. He did a really dumb swords-and-sorcery spoof the year before LOTR called Wizards. I seem to recall also reading that LOTR was the most expensive animated feature as well. But according to the Internet Movie Database, the LOTR budget was only $10 million: fairly high for the late 70s, but I doubt that would qualify as the most expensive. - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Aug 19 21:13:27 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:13:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Buckbeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lpa5n+s83m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24505 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle V." wrote: > > > I'm not sure where lycanthropes like Lupin (I love alliteration :) ) > would fit into this theory either. Considering that they're not > aware of what they do in their wolf-forms, I'm guessing that they > wouldn't have the same rapport with animals. > > -- Michelle V. Actually, it seems they do: the reason that James, Sirius and Peter labored to become Animagi was to keep Lupin company: as he explains in PoA, Ch. 19: "They couldn't keep me company as humans, so they kept me company as animals," said Lupin. "A werewolf is only a danger to people. They sneaked out of the castle every month under James's Invisibility Cloak. They transformed... Peter, as the smallest, could slip beneath the Willow's attacking branches and touch the knot that freezes it. They would then slip down the tunnel and join me. Under their influence, I became less dangerous. My body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so while I was with them." - CMC From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 21:14:19 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:14:19 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle In-Reply-To: <9lp16i+gcnq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lpa7b+uepj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24506 I agree with nearly all you post. However, I do disagree with this: > It also means that Hermione > can create a spell on the spot (Mobiliarbus, which literally suggests > moving a tree...you can't tell me that third year Hogwarts students > have learned spells to move trees...she made it up on the spot, using > her intention and her understanding of the language of spellwork). > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Steve, this is Hermione we're talking about. You are likely correct in that third years probably don't study it. It also is unlikely that first years learn "Alohomora" before Halloween, but we find her knowing it. She's the class swot, remember? Marcus From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Aug 19 22:05:37 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:05:37 -0400 Subject: Portrait Holes Message-ID: <20010819.181101.-333807.24.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24507 Several times in GoF, someone had to wait outside the common room door to open the portrait hole for Harry to leave. I am puzzled by this. Does this mean that the pupils are essentially locked into the Gryffindor tower until someone opens it from the outside? Is there no other way of leaving the common room other than waiting for someone to PLEASE chance by this way? It doesn't seem to make sense to me. Or is there a curfew for the Fat Lady to open the door from he inside? From BrownieH6 at aol.com Sun Aug 19 22:16:31 2001 From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:16:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portrait Holes Message-ID: <59.ee84ad0.28b194bf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24508 In a message dated 8/19/01 6:14:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mindyatime at juno.com writes: > Several times in GoF, someone had to wait outside the common room door to > I think it was because Harry was in his Invisibility Cloak, so he couldn't really walk out...the door couldn't open and have no one walk out, could it? ~Marie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From petrukio at enteract.com Sun Aug 19 22:17:38 2001 From: petrukio at enteract.com (Joel N. Fischoff) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 17:17:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portrait Holes In-Reply-To: <20010819.181101.-333807.24.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24509 On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Mindy, a.k.a. CLH wrote: >Several times in GoF, someone had to wait outside the common room door to >open the portrait hole for Harry to leave. I am puzzled by this. Does this >mean that the pupils are essentially locked into the Gryffindor tower >until someone opens it from the outside? I think you're misunderstanding what you read. The reason people were waiting for Harry is that Harry was not supposed to move around unaccompanied, not that he couldn't open the portrait by himself. The upshot of this is that, when he DID move around by himself, he had to wait until someone opened the portrait because if HE opened the portrait, then the portrait would know he left. And you know what gossips they are. Not to mention that they were probably told not to let him out. Joel From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 19 22:24:25 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 17:24:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gilderoy Lockhart---a couple ofhorrid thoughts References: <008001c12875$1d6f4280$dac71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <3B803C99.69FF7150@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24510 Eric Oppen wrote: > You know, it occurs to me that if Lockhart had been even more ruthless > than he was, he could have used his charisma for even worse things > than he did. Just imagine how many students he could have seduced, if > he had been inclined to do so. But sex can mess up a hairdo that took simply *hours* to get perfect! --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 19 22:34:23 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 17:34:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spell Mechanics References: <20010819.112926.-136955.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <3B803EEF.231BBAF3@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24511 Herald Talia wrote: > The Summoning Charm, for example - is it limited to line-of-sight? > Mrs. Weasley certainally used it to find Ton-tongue Toffees that she > didn't see. And Harry used it to bring his broomstick, which he certainly couldn't see from where he was. > If it's more long distance, why couldn't Harry just Summon the diary > when it was stolen from him? (CoS - when Ginny steals TR's diary back > from Harry.) Presumably because physical obstacles *do* stop the summoned object. One imagines Harry left his window open for the broomstick, and the Ton-Tongue toffees were tucked into pockets, cuffs, things with exits. I imagine if they'd had some in zipped up backpacks, for example, those couldn't have gotten out. The diary was a poor candidate for summoning, then, since it would likely be stashed someplace. Just my thought. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lou_lou_san at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 19 22:35:01 2001 From: lou_lou_san at yahoo.co.uk (lou_lou_san at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:35:01 -0000 Subject: I'm new here... whats the current theories on... Message-ID: <9lpeul+hcb0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24512 Hello, having just found this group, I was hoping to find out others opinions on: The prior incantantem at the end of GoF, the order of Lily and Jamaes doesn't seem to make sence. Who is Arabella figg? Are the witch referred to by Dumbledore as part of the 'old crowd' and Harry's neighbour the same person? What happened to Buckbeak near the end of GoF? Sirius is in the school and takes dog form to Lupin's so where does he fit into it all? Why did Sirius have to hang around as a stray near Hogsmeade rather than hiding out with someone who lived there (possibly a convinently moved Lupin, financed by Sirius) Is there any continuing resentment between Lupin and Black regarding them each thinking the other had betrayed James and Lily? There initial embrace indicates not, but if so, why didn't they get in touch during GoF? Are there any heavily supported rumours about the next book, other than Lupin being in it and it being called Hary Potter and the Order of the Phoenix? Thanks in advance for your input, and I am glad I have finally found a discussion group for adult fans, having trawled through some of the childrens ones. From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 19 22:38:00 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 17:38:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spell Mechanics References: <9lot2v+bnop@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B803FC7.39F79A64@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24513 Amy Z wrote: > Closed doors, I'm confident, don't stop a Summoned object. The > Firebolt probably had to get through several: definitely the portrait > hole and the front door, probably the dorm door as well. I wonder if > the doors swing open and shut again, or does the object just sail > right through them . . . ? Window. It came out the window. Occam's Razor. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 19 23:25:54 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:25:54 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Alan Rickman newsletter: 19 August 2001] Message-ID: <3B804B02.8479A655@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24514 Here's a snippet from the newsletter, about movies 2 & 3--and yes, you lawyer-types, I have permission from Suzanne to forward stuff so long as I include the source and disclaimer. --Amanda -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Alan Rickman newsletter: 19 August 2001 Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 06:43:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Rickman Fans Reply-To: RickmanFans at yahoo.com To: AR_Newsletter at topica.com If you have any gossip, suggestions, queries or tips, please send them RickmanFans at cybamuse.com. REMEMBER: if you wish to be acknowledged (first name only), you will need to let me know. In this newsletter... 1. Book now to see Alan Rickman on stage 2. A sigh of relief 3. Film Reviews 4. Production company 5. Villain power 6. Interview with a co-star ------------------ 2. A SIGH OF RELIEF In amongst the obligations of being on stage, Alan Rickman has also been confirmed to reprised his role as Snape in the second and third Harry Potter movies according to The Sunday Times (5 August, 2001): "Talking of follow-ups, preproduction is beginning on the second Harry Potter movie. The first, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, is being edited now and will be released in November. Shooting on Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets will begin in the early autumn with the same main cast, including Maggie Smith, Robbie Coltrane and Alan Rickman; the same director, Chris Columbus; and the same Harry. That's Daniel Radcliffe. Why the rush? In the book, Harry is supposed to be 11. Daniel is already 12. And the real worry is that Daniel's voice might break as he magically ages faster than the wizard he plays. (Source: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/08/05/sticulcul01005.html) ---------------------- ------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: The items mentioned in this newsletter are collected from various sources on the web and other media. Every endeavor is made to verify rumors, but the author of the newsletter cannot be held responsible for rumors which turn out to be false. The Alan Rickman Newsletter is in no way connected to Alan Rickman or his agents, therefore the opinions and comments presented represent those of the respective author(s) only, and no harm is intended. Cybamuse Media Services owns the copyright to the Alan Rickman Newsletter and it is not to be re-produced on the web or in any other media format without prior consent from Cybamuse Media Services. IF THIS NEWSLETTER IS REPRODUCED WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM CYBAMUSE MEDIA SERVICES, THE OFFENDER(S) WILL BE REMOVED IMMEIDATELY FROM THE DISTRIUBTION LIST. If articles are quoted within the newsletter, the copyright for their content remains with the original authors. Cybamuse Media Services does not support any one online shop and all recommendations are not to be considered endorsed advertising. Please email RickmanFans at cybamuse.com for any comments or further information that you require. -------------------------- From dasienko at email.com Sun Aug 19 23:47:34 2001 From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:47:34 -0000 Subject: Robes (silly question) In-Reply-To: <9lmci3+2j9f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lpj6m+ghd5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24515 I thought that Archie was a Scotish Wizard and was accustomed to wearing a robe/kilt. From jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 00:50:59 2001 From: jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com (jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:50:59 -0000 Subject: Spell Mechanics Message-ID: <9lpmtj+h90a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24516 >Herald Talia wrote: If it's more long distance, why couldn't Harry just Summon the diary > when it was stolen from him? (CoS - when Ginny steals TR's diary back > from Harry.) Another reason is as stated in GOF Harry did not know the summoning charm yet. He had a hard time learning the charm. Harry seemed to have developed a block for the summoning charm. Which means to me that he he did not know about the charm as of yet. Another OT thought I had today while watching PGA Championship golf is how handy an accurate banishing spell would be. Just a thought LOL Jesse From john at walton.to Sun Aug 19 03:21:12 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:21:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius Malfoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24517 Alfredo Ram?rez said: > All right, I?m American and have frankly no idea how British Boarding > schools work. In CoS, we learnt that Lucius was one of the twelve school > governors. What are school governors? Is this a paying position or like > being part of the PTA? At the end of the book, he was ?sacked? from his > position as Governor, which I figured meant it was a job. If someone would > be so kind as to clear that up for me, I?d appreciate it. The Governors of my boarding school were something of a mixed bunch. There were retired senior staff members (former Headmaster and Deputy Head), a mother of several old boys of the school, former Headmasters of other schools, and that ilk. Rita had their job descriptions absolutely right -- they make the BIG decisions, and are supremely irritating to those people who are on the ground trying to implement them. --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light." --Dylan Thomas ________________________________ From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 01:27:34 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 01:27:34 -0000 Subject: Portrait Holes In-Reply-To: <20010819.181101.-333807.24.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lpp26+rki0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24518 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > Several times in GoF, someone had to wait outside the common room door to > open the portrait hole for Harry to leave. I am puzzled by this. Does > this mean that the pupils are essentially locked into the Gryffindor > tower until someone opens it from the outside? Is there no other way of > leaving the common room other than waiting for someone to PLEASE chance > by this way? It doesn't seem to make sense to me. Or is there a curfew > for the Fat Lady to open the door from he inside? In both instances, he was in his invisibility cloak. He didn't want the portrait opening and closing all by itself. It would call attention to the fact that some invisible person is going in and out of the portrait hole. In SS when he wandered about, he waited until everybody had gone to sleep. Even then, the Fat Lady called out, "Who's there?" Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 01:47:01 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 01:47:01 -0000 Subject: I'm new here... whats the current theories on... In-Reply-To: <9lpeul+hcb0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lpq6l+e373@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24519 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lou_lou_san at y... wrote: > Hello, having just found this group, I was hoping to find out others > opinions on: Welcome Lou Lou. You will find a lot of answers in the FAQ and at the Lexicon. However, you've asked some questions that I don't believe are in them so let me try my hand at them. > What happened to Buckbeak near the end of GoF? Sirius is in the > school and takes dog form to Lupin's so where does he fit into it all? If it were me, I would head to the cave and take Buckbeak. It would be a whole lot easier on the paws. :) > Why did Sirius have to hang around as a stray near Hogsmeade rather > than hiding out with someone who lived there (possibly a convinently > moved Lupin, financed by Sirius) I can think of several things. One, Lupin is a werewolf which brings its own set of problems. Two, he is trying to keep a low profile. The fewer people involved, the better. Three, he had Buckbeak with him. Four, if he was financing it, it might get noticed. A one-time withdrawal for a Firebolt might slip by, but a constant resource drain might get spotted by the MOM who is still looking for him. > Is there any continuing resentment between Lupin and Black regarding > them each thinking the other had betrayed James and Lily? There > initial embrace indicates not, but if so, why didn't they get in > touch during GoF? Why should there be? They both lived through evil times, and regretted suspecting each other. They are also the last of their old gang, except Peter of course. They were both relieved that they still have each other. > Are there any heavily supported rumours about the next book, other > than Lupin being in it and it being called Hary Potter and the Order > of the Phoenix? There are plenty of rumors. I can't remember too many in the FAQ. There might be. However, you will not find any in the Lexicon. It deals with facts -- solid, believable, verifiable *fact*. Ultimately I like that better. I hate getting worked up over rumors, don't you? However, rumors are fun sometimes and there are plenty of sites elsewhere on the web with rumor lists. The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club is a good place to start. :) > Thanks in advance for your input, and I am glad I have finally found > a discussion group for adult fans, having trawled through some of the > childrens ones. Most of us feel the same way. :) Marcus From mindyatime at juno.com Mon Aug 20 01:46:00 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:46:00 -0400 Subject: Curriculum Confusion? Message-ID: <20010819.214616.-3950435.4.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24520 Oddly enough, the DADA teachers seem to be teaching a lot about creatures -- grindlylows, pixies, and such. Doesnt that rather belong to the Magical Creatures dept.? From litalex at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 01:55:05 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] I'm new here... whats the current theories on... In-Reply-To: <9lpeul+hcb0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010820015505.73237.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24521 Hello, --- lou_lou_san at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Hello, having just found this group, I was hoping to > find out others > opinions on: Some of the questions can be answered by the Lexicon, but I'll try my best. > The prior incantantem at the end of GoF, the order > of Lily and Jamaes > doesn't seem to make sence. An error that was corrected in later editions. > Who is Arabella figg? Are the witch referred to by > Dumbledore as part > of the 'old crowd' and Harry's neighbour the same > person? Supposedly so. Check under her name in the Lexicon. > What happened to Buckbeak near the end of GoF? > Sirius is in the > school and takes dog form to Lupin's so where does > he fit into it all? Perhaps Sirius took care of that before going back into Hogwarts. Or... That is a question that I want an answer to. > Why did Sirius have to hang around as a stray near > Hogsmeade rather > than hiding out with someone who lived there > (possibly a convinently > moved Lupin, financed by Sirius) Your speculation wouldn't work because it's still dangerous for Sirius to access his bank account. Not from the goblins but from the people who'll presumably see him if he goes near the bank. As to why Sirius remained a stray, he probably wants/has to return to human form ever so often, which won't be easy when he's been permanently adopted by some family. > Is there any continuing resentment between Lupin and > Black regarding [snip] why didn't > they get in touch during GoF? How do we know that they didn't? Harry didn't know the correspondence between Dumbledore and Sirius until near the end of the book, either. > Are there any heavily supported rumours about the > next book, other > than Lupin being in it and it being called Hary > Potter and the Order > of the Phoenix? It will be out some time in 2002? I was very disappointed by that news, I thought they were releasing it along with the movie. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From vderark at bccs.org Mon Aug 20 02:28:35 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 02:28:35 -0000 Subject: I'm new here... whats the current theories on... In-Reply-To: <9lpq6l+e373@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lpskj+29o8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24522 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lou_lou_san at y... wrote: > There are plenty of rumors. I can't remember too many in the FAQ. > There might be. However, you will not find any in the Lexicon. It > deals with facts -- solid, believable, verifiable *fact*. Ultimately > I like that better. I hate getting worked up over rumors, don't > you? However, rumors are fun sometimes and there are plenty of sites > elsewhere on the web with rumor lists. The Unofficial Harry Potter > Fan Club is a good place to start. :) Thanks for the vote of confidence, and no, there are no rumors in the Lexicon. However, what you WILL find are FACTS about the next book, and there is quite a list of them on there. Check out this page: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/book_op.html It gives lots of tidbits all culled from things JKR herself has said in various interviews and chats. These are the real thing, and there is some fairly solid stuff there. Welcome to the list. I'm sure your list elf will contact you shortly if they haven't already to get you oriented to the way things run around here. I really encourage you to read the FAQs, the VFAQ, and yes, even peruse the Lexicon to find the answers to many of these questions and a lot more! Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From john at walton.to Mon Aug 20 02:35:25 2001 From: john at walton.to (john at walton.to) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:35:25 EDT Subject: TECH: Hotmail being very slow to send Message-ID: <44.12082745.28b1d16d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24523 Quick tech advisory for all here. Certain servers on Hotmail (particularly the ones that Amber and I use) are being very slow and sending out email days after it was sent to them. If you use Hotmail, be aware of this as a reason why your posts aren't going through, and please have patience with the double messages. Apologetically, --John From pbnesbit at msn.com Mon Aug 20 02:32:53 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 02:32:53 -0000 Subject: Curriculum Confusion? In-Reply-To: <20010819.214616.-3950435.4.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lpssl+smu8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24524 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > Oddly enough, the DADA teachers seem to be teaching a lot about creatures > -- grindlylows, pixies, and such. Doesnt that rather belong to the > Magical Creatures dept.? Creatures like grindylows, redcaps, kappas, etc., are taught about in DADA because they *are* Dark creatures. (that is, IIRC) Care of Magical Creatures covers everything from flobberworms (is there *any* use for these?) to unicorns to hippogriffs. In other words, creatures that are *not* Dark creatures. Pixies aren't really Dark creatures, they just seem to be annoying as heck! Hope this helps, and welcome! Peace & Plenty, Parker From vderark at bccs.org Mon Aug 20 02:40:25 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 02:40:25 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle In-Reply-To: <9lpa7b+uepj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lptap+veno@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24525 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > I agree with nearly all you post. However, I do disagree with this: > > > It also means that Hermione > > can create a spell on the spot > > Steve, this is Hermione we're talking about. You are likely correct > in that third years probably don't study it. It also is unlikely > that first years learn "Alohomora" before Halloween, but we find her > knowing it. She's the class swot, remember? > Granted, but I still don't believe that she learned a spell that moves a tree. That isn't even a logical spell to have. What makes a lot more sense is that she understands the root words and has no problem creating the words she needs at the time she needs them. After all, to move Snape in PA they used "mobilicorpus," which is basically the same spell with a different thing being moved ("corpus" means "body" while "arbus" refers to a tree). Hermione, being as bright as she is, has quickly moved past simply parroting back spell words and has grasped the underlying logic to the whole thing. Alohomora, on the other hand, is a very obscure spell. The etymology is definitely not simple Latin like so many of the others. It is specifically refered to as "her" spell. It seems fairly obvious that Alohomora is one she dug up in some dusty book somewhere in the library, doing a bit of light reading. And when she spotted it, of course she'd see the usefulness of it and memorize it. But Mobiliarbus? You think she saw that and said to herself, "Well, you never know when I might have to move a tree!"? No, that's a spell of her one invention, improvised on the spot using her understanding of the way magic works. That's completely logical and actually makes her even smarter, if you think about it. Its a good example of the working of the mind of someone who gets over a hundred percent on a Charms exam. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From vderark at bccs.org Mon Aug 20 02:50:21 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 02:50:21 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle In-Reply-To: <9lpa7b+uepj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lpttd+irdb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24526 One more note on spell words and intentions: think about Wingardium Leviosa. The meaning of that spell refers to levitating a feather (the root word "wing" in there is clearly not Latin, which has no letter 'w', but refers to the object they were supposed to be lifting). But later on, Ron, who doesn't really get it yet, uses those words to levitate a troll's club! How can this be? Because his intention came into play, and his mind was totally focused on what he wanted to do. The words he said were what he THOUGHT would levitate anything, since he doesn't really understand what the phrase meant, and sure enough, it does. Since he believed that those words would have that effect, they sufficed to focus his thoughts. Hermione, by the time she is in her third year, would have used "Clava Leviosa" instead, whether or not anyone had taught her that specific incantation. If she didn't know the Latin word for "club" off the top of her head, she would have just said "leviosa" and concentrated on the club. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From catlady at wicca.net Mon Aug 20 02:57:46 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:57:46 -0700 Subject: Figg/Cats - Priori Incantatem sequence - Sirius questions - Creature Curriculum Message-ID: <3B807CAA.56C63B69@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24527 Becky wrote > Mrs Figg is also absurdly fond of her cats. Mrs. Figg is quite reasonably and appropriately fond of her cats IMHO. lou lou san wrote: > Hello, having just found this group, I was > hoping to find out others opinions on: Tell me if you find it offensive when I mention past posts and the Lexicon in my following answers, please? The Lexicon is http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/index.html and is a FABULOUS resource. > The prior incantantem at the end of GoF, the order > of Lily and Jamaes doesn't seem to make sense. JKR agrees with you that having James come out of the wand before Lily didn't make sense, as she had it changed after the ninth US printing and twelfth UK printing to having Lily come out before James. I believe it was better written the first way, and members of this group came up with lovely explanations of why there was this apparent contradiction to the spells coming out in reverse order of being cast, including but not limited to: 1) Harry's strong will, strong magic power, and strong desire to see his father warped the normal order. 2) That wasn't really James who came out, it was Harry himself (Harry already mistook himself for James in PoA in Patronus scene) and represented the killing curse that Voldemort cast on Harry that rebounded on Voldemort. If the connection had continued one spell longer, the real shadow of James would have come out. 3) Lily really was killed before James. The voice that Harry remembered hearing shout "Take Harry and run!" wasn't really James, it was James's father, Harry's grandfather, who was there helping guard Harry. There is a FAQ somewhere explaining all this, but I don't remember where. Even if JKR did write James before Lily as a mistake rather than as a hint, she could have adopted one of our explanations rather than changing text between printings. > Who is Arabella figg? Are the witch referred to > by Dumbledore as part of the 'old crowd' and Harry's > neighbour the same person? Arabella Figg is Mrs. Figg. Post #24497 from earlier today said: << This isn't just jumping to conclusions. JKR stated it specifically in the Blue Peter show interview. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/figg.html >> > What happened to Buckbeak near the end of GoF? > Sirius is in the school and takes dog form to > Lupin's so where does he fit into it all? > Why did Sirius have to hang around as a stray > near Hogsmeade rather than hiding out with > someone who lived there (possibly a convinently > moved Lupin, financed by Sirius) > Is there any continuing resentment between Lupin > and Black regarding them each thinking the other > had betrayed James and Lily? There initial embrace > indicates not, but if so, why didn't they get in > touch during GoF? Three good questions with no canon answers yet. I speculate that Lupin was sent on some mission by Dumbledore that had him out of Britain for the whole school year of GoF, thus accounting for his absence from GoF and Sirius's lack of contact with him. As for whether there is resentment between Sirius and Remus over each having thought the other a traitor, I want to write a fanfic about it. In which Sirius and Remus at that time were (secretly) lovers and (not secretly) living together, and when James and Sirius very reluctantly came to suspect Remus (in my fic, because some of the info that had been handed over was info they thought was known only to themselves and Remus, not remembering that Peter had hanging around while they told Remus about), Sirius went through this big emotional crisis thing of HOW is it he can sleep beside me, be embraced in my arms, without showing any sign that he is planning to kill all of us? I thought I knew him completely, but I was wrong, do I in fact actually know him at all? and forcing himself to put on an act of feeling the same way he always did, to avoid letting the spy know that he suspected ... altho' a certain amount of worry and absent-mindedness would have been attributed by Remus to Sirius's burden of being Secret Keeper. And after That Night (Halloween 1981), Remus gets to spend 12 years not only without the only friends he ever had, but brooding over how could he have been so very deceived about the person he loved -- torturing himself with memories of some last kiss, and trying to understand how he hadn't realised at the time that Sirius was going off to betray everything they had ever believed in.... He must come around each time to thinking that Sirius hadn't INTENDED treason, had 'merely' been careless, allowed himself to be captured, somehow not resisted Imperius ... and then scolded himself viciously each time for believing in pleasant fantasies... > Are there any heavily supported rumours about the next > book, other than Lupin being in it and it being called > Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix? Rumors: We will find out why Mrs. Figg has all those cats. We will find out whether Percy is going to turn evil. Harry will go to a magical place which the readers have heard of but never seen before. [Guesses as to what that place is include St. Mungo's, Azkaban, the chamberpot room at Hogwarts, Egypt where Bill Weasley works as a cursebreaker.] Rumor: We will learn the magic properties of a room at Hogwarts whose existence but not whose magic we already know about. [Guesses as to which room include: the chamberpot room, the prefects' bathroom (and that its magic is that boys and girls can bathe at the same time without seeing each other), and the small room next to the Great Hall with the portraits of deceased Headmasters.] Rumor: A beloved character will die. I'm very much afraid it will be Remus, who is MUCH beloved by me and other women with good taste. Mindy wrote: > Oddly enough, the DADA teachers seem to be teaching a > lot about creatures -- grindlylows, pixies, and such. > Doesnt that rather belong to the Magical Creatures dept.? You are right that FABULOUS BEASTS treats all those critters as Magical Creatures, not as a separate category of Dark Creatures. I can understand that they aren't in CARE OF magical creatures, as people don't want to CARE for them. I understand why they are covered in a class named DEFENSE but not AGAINST DARK ARTS. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L earned A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From vderark at bccs.org Mon Aug 20 03:00:30 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 03:00:30 -0000 Subject: Curriculum Confusion? In-Reply-To: <20010819.214616.-3950435.4.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lpuge+b5if@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24528 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > Oddly enough, the DADA teachers seem to be teaching a lot about creatures > -- grindlylows, pixies, and such. Doesnt that rather belong to the > Magical Creatures dept.? Dark creatures are not animals. They are actually another form of magical being. Fantastic Beasts refers to many of them as "demons," not in a religious sense, but because it describes a key aspect of them all: they exist to actively do harm and damage. This harm is different from the harm that, say, a manticore would do, since the manticore would be attacking someone to eat them. In other words, it is a predator and that's what predators do to survive. Dark Creatures, on the other hand, aren't animals. They don't have life cycles in the same sense that normal animals have. They attack for the sake of hurting someone, not simply to eat. The red caps are a great example. They bludgeon unususpecting travellers so that they can use their blood to stain their cloth caps red. It doesn't give them food, it doesn't allow them to reproduce, they do it purely out of nastiness. One way of thinking about it is to say that they are a physical embodiment of an evil, harmful intent. And if you think about the essence of magic being intent, Dark Creatures are the physical embodiment of Dark Magic. The lines do get blurry, surely. But even werewolves fit this description. MOst of the time they aren't Dark Creatures, but when they are, they attack people with the intention of passing the disease on to others or kill them. As for the pixies, they AREN'T dark creatures. That's why Seamus snickered when Lockhart showed up with them. And he couldn't even handle THEM! Stev Vander Ark The HArry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From heraldtalia at juno.com Mon Aug 20 03:47:12 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:47:12 -0400 Subject: Joke I'm not getting & other stuff Message-ID: <20010819.235150.-23695.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24529 In SS, when Harry, Ron and Hermione are learning the Wingardium Leviosa charm, Prof. Flitwick says "Never forget Wizard Barruffio, who said S instead of F and ended up with a buffalo on his chest." What am I not getting? If Accio is really as Steve Van Der Ark is saying, not limited by our physics, wouldn't that have a great potential for mayhem? Accio our Charms exam! (at 2 AM) Accio Draco's homework! Accio food from the kitchen! I'm assuming there must be some way to block it, or else..................................Gred and Forge could probably really wreak mayhem. LOL!! lou-lou san asked: > Why did Sirius have to hang around as a stray near > Hogsmeade rather > than hiding out with someone who lived there > (possibly a convinently > moved Lupin, financed by Sirius) Remember, Snape is still angry at Sirius at the beginning of GoF, and Sirius is still a wanted man. Snape knows all about Remus and Sirius's friendship, and at the beginning of GoF, he has not yet promised Dumbledore to work with them. If I was Snape, the first place I'd look for Sirius would be with Remus. And since vendettas are kind of Snape's style, Sirius wouldn't be safe with Remus. This is just IMHO, but it seems to make sense. (I wouldn't want an angry Snape following me, although I'd probably lose a lot of weight! ) ;-) Michelle V. wrote: Robyn's question: Why does Buckbeak seem more intelligent when he is with Sirius. Michelle answered. >Even when Sirius is back in >human form, some residual effects of this phenomenon are still >present. The result of all this is that Sirius garnered a special >rapport with Buckbeak. >I've had to limit this phenomenon to Sirius only (so far), since the >other animagi mentioned in the books (Professor McGonnagal, >Pettigrew, Skeeter) don't seem to exhibit the same behavior. >Pettigrew was Scabbers for years, and I didn't see any difference in >his behavior towards regular animals. Actually, Voldy (end of GoF) says that when Wormtail was running away, his little friends [rats] told him that there was a corner of the forest they were afraid of, where small creatures met their deaths. He said "Peter has a curious affinity with rats, don't you, Peter?" So actually, I have more support for your argument, Michelle. Peter can communicate with rats, and Voldy seems to imply that even in human form, Peter's got an affinity for his particular breed of four legged friends. Goodnight, all! Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From john at walton.to Mon Aug 20 04:13:34 2001 From: john at walton.to (john at walton.to) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:13:34 EDT Subject: Wingardium Leviosa Joke Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24530 Herald Talia said: > In SS, when Harry, Ron and Hermione are learning the Wingardium Leviosa > charm, Prof. Flitwick says "Never forget Wizard Barruffio, who said S > instead of F and ended up with a buffalo on his chest." What am I not > getting? I reckon that Barruffio said "Wingardium Leviofa", which is a pun on "LeviaTHan", which in common parlance does not mean a political work by Thomas Hobbes last century but rather means something very very large, which is definitely a buffalo. PS. Quick ADMIN-y note -- it's GREAT that you're combining posts! However, out of consideration for the folks who will be writing/updating the FAQs, which are taken from list messages, please use the actual topics instead of "other stuff" in the subject. Cheers, --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan A stately pleasure-dome decree Where Alph, the sacred river, ran Through caverns measureless to man Down to the sunless sea." --Samuel Taylor Coleridge, "Kubla Khan". ________________________________ From katzefan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 05:00:41 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:00:41 -0000 Subject: Robes (silly question) In-Reply-To: <001a01c12808$82faabc0$959efcc3@ook> Message-ID: <9lq5hp+jgtf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24531 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "CJK" wrote: > > > > Maybe robes are the equivalent of formal wear (like a jacket and tie) > > and Hagrid is wearing the equivalent of a T-shirt and jeans? > > > Ok, then, if that's the case, why do they wear robes to the QWC ? > > Hmm... okay, I'm grasping at straws here. Another theory - Robes are "proper > wizards'" clothing. Do we know if Flich's always/ever wearing them? Maybe > only acknowledged wizards and witches wear robes, and Hagrid doesn't count > as one because he never graduated Hogwarts? > > Help me out here, I'm drowning. :) > > CJK I think you've got a point. Hagrid never graduated from Hogwarts, having been expelled (unjustly, as it turns out) and I'm wondering if the robes are the equivalent of 'Dr.' in front of the name of a PhD graduate - only those who've successfully completed their task/doctorate get 'em. From katzefan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 05:17:33 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:17:33 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <9lp4lh+rbag@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lq6hd+7m44@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24532 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., becky_watts at y... wrote: > Mrs Figg is also absurdly fond of her cats. Could it be that > Crookshanks is somehow related to Mrs Figg ?? > Could it be that Crookshanks *is* Mrs. Figg? With Harry at Hogwarts, she doesn't have to hang around the Dursley's neighbourhood so much, and they certainly wouldn't notice whether she was still there or not. Somehow (apropos to something someone else wrote) I never thought of Mrs. Figg as a Squib, partly because she'd hardly be able to offer Harry any protection if she was, so what would be the point in him staying with her whenever the Dursleys were away? And also, why would Dumbledore mention Arabella Figg (I'm assuming these are both one and the same people) when he tells the 'old crowd' Sirius is to contact? Surely if she's a Squib there wouldn't be any point in contacting her. > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > > > > . The person given > > > the > > > job of protecting Harry (in my never to be humble opinion) is > > > Arabella Figg. It's surely no coincidence that she has taken care > of > > > > > > him every time the Dursleys have had something fun to do. It is > > > implied that there are protections in place around 4 Privet > Drive, > > > and in addition to charms (Fidelius and otherwise), I'm sure > > > Arabella > > > has something to do with it. I can't wait until Harry figures out > > > that all the time he spent in her cabbage smelling living room > > > looking at pictures of cats, was spent with a witch! > > > > > > Bente > > > > Knowing what we know about Memory Charms, was harry * really* > looking at > > pictures of cats during his visits with Mrs. Figg? > > Robyn From katzefan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 05:23:55 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:23:55 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: <9lniha+44lm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lq6tb+8vga@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24533 Hmm - didn't read far enough, obviously. So Mrs. Figg IS a squib. So how can she protect Harry???? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" < catlady at w...> wrote: > I found it! Post 1429 from Thu Sep 14, 2000, from Blaise: > > On another egroup that I belong to (hpslash), someone who was at the > Edinburgh Book Festival posted a message about some of the things JKR > said about the books, and I thought you might be rather interested... > > <<- Mrs Figg is a squib. Godric's Hollow (where is that again?) is > gonna be very important as is Snape and the whole thing with Harry's > eyes! She says Snape could still turn out to be either bad or good > but she's not telling us which. The really big death comes in book > five. She has already written the very final chapter of the whole > series. The Dark Mark chapter in the GoF was a killer for her to > write - she rewrote it about 9 times and ended up thinking she'd > never be able to finish it.>> > > Also 4175 from Fri Oct 20, 2000 and from Blaise: > from the B&N chat, Quotation marks for direct quotes. > > Does Arabella Figg have an important role in the later books. > -'You'll be seeing Mrs Figg in Book 5 and you'll find out all about > her.' > > I believe the following is from the Scholastic chat of that same > October 2000: > > Q: Is the Mrs. Figg with all the cats in the Dursleys' nneighborhood > the same Arabella Figg that Dumbledore mentioned at the end of book 4? > JKR: Well spotted!!! From vderark at bccs.org Mon Aug 20 05:26:05 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:26:05 -0000 Subject: Puzzling Question In-Reply-To: <9lq6hd+7m44@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lq71d+fkic@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24534 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., becky_watts at y... wrote: > > Mrs Figg is also absurdly fond of her cats. Could it be that > > Crookshanks is somehow related to Mrs Figg ?? > > > Could it be that Crookshanks *is* Mrs. Figg? Considering that we know that Crookshanks is part Kneazle, which is a distinctly non-human magical creature, it seems unlikely that he could also be a Witch. Mrs. Arabella Figg is a mystery in many ways, certainly--lived as a Muggle for a decade, has a weird thing with cats, has a house that smells like a Wizard's tent (which maybe it was!), feeds Harry chocolate cake that tastes like she's had it for a year, yet one of the old crowd of faithful supporters of Dumbledore and apparently someone to be called in when things get rough...I'm really looking forward to finding out more. And finding out if there's some signifigance to the names Mr. Paws, Tufty, and so on... Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon etc etc. From katzefan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 05:26:21 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:26:21 -0000 Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart---a couple ofhorrid thoughts In-Reply-To: <008001c12875$1d6f4280$dac71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9lq71t+gupc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24535 Given Lockhart's propensity for self-preservation, I suspect by the time Molly paused (* a beat* ) he'd already be several miles away and running for his life ... literally. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > You know, it occurs to me that if Lockhart had been even more ruthless than > he was, he could have used his charisma for even worse things than he did. > Just imagine how many students he could have seduced, if he had been > inclined to do so. > > Another Lockhart-related question: If he had been exposed as the fraud and > liar he was, _without_ losing his memory in the process, do you think he'd > ever have been let out of Azkaban? At the _very_ least, I'd expect a wizard > court to order him to pay heavy reimbursement to the wizards and witches > whose deeds he'd "appropriated," and his publishers would probably also be > out for a big chunk of his hide. As for trying to leave Ginny there to just > die---I think that if Molly and Arthur Weasley found out about _that,_ all > of a sudden Azkaban wouldn't look like such a bad place to be- --out in the > ocean and _safe._ > > Molly Weasley *speaking very slowly and deceptively gently*: > > Let me see if I've got this straight...you _knew_ where my baby daughter > was...and you proposed to _leave_ her there to _die?_ > > *a beat* > > I'LL KILL YOU! I'LL MOIDILIZE YOU! I'LL RIP YOUR LUNGS OUT AND MAKE A > MILKSHAKE WITH THEM! GIVE ME MY WAND! From katzefan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 05:29:11 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:29:11 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: <9lno1b+lul7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lq777+o7ng@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24536 *&%#@!! OK, I retract my retraction, until further notice .... still believe Mrs. Figg could not be a Squib or she'd be worthless in helping keep Harry safe when he wasn't at the Dursleys'. ____ --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > wrote: > > I found it! Post 1429 from Thu Sep 14, 2000, from Blaise: > > > > On another egroup that I belong to (hpslash), someone who was at > the > > Edinburgh Book Festival posted a message about some of the things > JKR > > said about the books, and I thought you might be rather > interested... > > Unfortunately, this is second hand and therefore I can't consider it > to be canon for Lexicon purposes. I know that sounds harsh, but there > are an awful lot of things flying around that someone said JKR said. > This one sounds fairly reliable, but I wouldn't dare put it on the > Arabella Figg page. > > Anyone have a transcript of that speech/interview? > > Certainly makes her an interesting character, though, doesn't it. > Squib, living for years among Muggles to protect Harry...so what's up > with the cats then? > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 05:34:03 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:34:03 -0000 Subject: Creative Hermione (Was:spells: hard not to think like a Muggle) In-Reply-To: <9lptap+veno@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lq7gb+d4kr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24537 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > > > I agree with nearly all you post. However, I do disagree with this: > > > > > It also means that Hermione > > > can create a spell on the spot > > > > Steve, this is Hermione we're talking about. You are likely > correct > > in that third years probably don't study it. It also is unlikely > > that first years learn "Alohomora" before Halloween, but we find > her > > knowing it. She's the class swot, remember? > > > > Granted, but I still don't believe that she learned a spell that > moves a tree. That isn't even a logical spell to have. What makes a > lot more sense is that she understands the root words and has no > problem creating the words she needs at the time she needs them. > After all, to move Snape in PA they used "mobilicorpus," which is > basically the same spell with a different thing being moved ("corpus" > means "body" while "arbus" refers to a tree). Hermione, being as > bright as she is, has quickly moved past simply parroting back spell > words and has grasped the underlying logic to the whole thing. > Steve Vander Ark You make a very good point and may very well be right. If any of the trio could make up spells as needed, it would be Hermione. However, I still feel uncomfortable using this instant as "proof" that she is making them up. If any of the trio would memorize a obscure charm for moving trees, it would be Hermione. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle. She could have found a chapter in a book somewhere entitled "Moving Charms". It outlined the basic theory and contained a long list of examples. She glanced through it learning all the obvious ones. "Mobiliarbus" would be an obvious one for someone knowing latin, would it not? I don't know latin so I wouldn't know. :) Marcus From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 05:45:12 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (Alfredo Ramirez) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Creative Hermione Message-ID: <20010820054512.13718.qmail@web10705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24538 Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle. She could have found a chapter in a book somewhere entitled "Moving Charms". It outlined the basic theory and contained a long list of examples. She glanced through it learning all the obvious ones. "Mobiliarbus" would be an obvious one for someone knowing latin, would it not? I don't know latin so I wouldn't know. :) When youre learning to program, upon looking up a command, you might see something like this: Printf function: Printf(expression) I daresay that magic may be somewhat similar. As long as you know the basic syntax, you can use the different commands for different situations. Movement Charm: mobili-latin root Summoning Charm accio object to be summoned If you know the syntax, you simply replace the part in quotes with an appropriate word. It seems illogical that you cant do magic except with strict charms. It has to be more flexible than that. That would be like learning chemistry using only common nomenclature instead of systemized IUPAC. Just my thoughts. JB __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From vderark at bccs.org Mon Aug 20 05:46:03 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:46:03 -0000 Subject: Creative Hermione (Was:spells: hard not to think like a Muggle) In-Reply-To: <9lq7gb+d4kr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lq86r+22ll@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24539 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > making them up. If any of the trio would memorize a obscure charm > for moving trees, it would be Hermione. True enough :) I'd love to see a list of all the spells she knows. I'll bet there are some weirder ones than that in there... > > Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle. She could have found a > chapter in a book somewhere entitled "Moving Charms". It outlined > the basic theory and contained a long list of examples. She glanced > through it learning all the obvious ones. "Mobiliarbus" would be an > obvious one for someone knowing latin, would it not? I don't know > latin so I wouldn't know. :) It certainly would. You'd know that one long before you'd know the word for "club." So that would make perfect sense. That's a good reason why she wouldn't have even had to have read it somewhere to be able to figure out how to say it correctly. Steve From litalex at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 06:14:43 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Latin (was Re: Creative Hermione) In-Reply-To: <9lq86r+22ll@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010820061443.54593.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24540 Hello, > "Mobiliarbus" would be > an > > obvious one for someone knowing latin, would it > not? I don't know > > latin so I wouldn't know. :) Yes, it would, but that brings on my question. Do they teach Latin in Hogwarts? With all the spells and so on, I'd expect that they do, but JKR didn't mention any Latin classes (I assume Hermione learned it on her own or some such). little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From vderark at bccs.org Mon Aug 20 06:22:46 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:22:46 -0000 Subject: Latin (was Re: Creative Hermione) In-Reply-To: <20010820061443.54593.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lqabm+24so@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24541 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Do they teach Latin in Hogwarts? With all the spells and > so on, I'd expect that they do, but JKR didn't mention > any Latin classes (I assume Hermione learned it on her > own or some such). I think that learning Latin, at least the subset of Latin which forms the majority of their spell words, is an important part of each class. We don't hear about it in detail, but we certainly hear about the loads of homework they have to do. I'm sure that if you'd look over their shoulder, you'd see that they're learning Latin words and learning how to string them together into meaningful phrases. There is actually a quote or two from an interview in which JKR discusses her use of Latin in the books. I'm too tired to find it right now, but I know it's in there. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 06:32:36 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:32:36 -0000 Subject: Creative Hermione In-Reply-To: <20010820054512.13718.qmail@web10705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lqau4+7gaf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24542 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alfredo Ramirez wrote: > When you're learning to program, upon looking up a command, you might > see something like this: > > Printf function: > > Printf("expression") > Yes, and what happens when someone sees this: scanf function: scanf("expression",...); and then writes: /**********************************/ void f(void) { char *str; scanf( "%s\n",str); // str is not initialized!!!! } /***********************************/ (For non-geeks, the computer would end up sticking a bunch a characters into a random place. It could be anywhere. It could be somewhere harmless. It could be into the code that launches the missle!) Let's not forget Wizard Baruffio. :) "Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves." (JRR Tolkein - The Two Towers - Chapter 11:The Palantir) Marcus From Allyse at my-deja.com Mon Aug 20 07:18:40 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:18:40 -0000 Subject: Not the first LOTR movie In-Reply-To: <9lp55d+ipc6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lqdkg+cb9s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24543 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote: > This will not be the first lord Of The Rings movie, they made a big > budget animation film in 1978 that covered the first book and half of > the second, it ended rather abruptly. Well, for a deliciously biased review of the animated LotR, check out this page: http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/bakshi/bakshi.htm Makes you really grateful Disney didn't get its paws on Harry, doesn't it? :) Allyse, shuddering at the thought of an animated Voldemort (MWA HA HA!) From john at walton.to Sun Aug 19 04:33:09 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 00:33:09 -0400 Subject: ADMIN: Add your thoughts regarding our groups' future Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24544 I've just put up a database in the Main List's Database section which has a bunch of blank spaces for us all to fill in our ideas, hopes, dreams, likes and dislikes about what we can do to make the groups of HPFGU an enjoyable place for everyone, new or old. The direct link is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=9 Add your thoughts, no matter what they are (except, perhaps, for "burn all people who can't spell right all the time at the stake"). The Moderators *need* to hear them in order to make informed decisions about the future of the group. Yours, for the Moderator Group, --John Walton __________________________________________ John Walton / Crazy Ivan HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47 @ john at walton.to YM johnwalton_crazyivan ModMail hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com READ OUR ADMIN FILES! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ __________________________________________ From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Mon Aug 20 09:41:07 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:41:07 -0000 Subject: School Governors in Britain In-Reply-To: <9lmv47+6317@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lqlvj+bb1v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24545 Official information on the duties of School Governors in Britain is on this government FAQ (warning probably morqe iformation than you ever wanted to know) Public Schools (ie private schools) governing bodies will in addition have responsibilities to make sure that fees and other income are as appropriate, and managing funds. It is likely that major finacial assets will be the responsibility of trustees who report to the Governors. Broadly the Governors are responsible for a range of statutory duties and planning the policy of the school. In Britain the Head Teacher is responsible for actually implementing this policy and in practice adegere eof separation of powers emerges which should be familiar to US people So for example Governors would set out a general dress code but its up to the Head and staff to interpret this. Governors should not second guess the professional teaching staff on lesson presentation but can influence educational patterns within the agreed curriculum by finding some parts more readily than others, They should also ensure a proper system of pastoral care and ? for example ? provide a mechanism for dealing with bullying of pupils by staff. Which raises questions as to how effective Hogwarts governors are (Snape are you listening?) Edis http://www.dfee.gov.uk/governor/faq.htm From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 20 10:09:47 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:09:47 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall Message-ID: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24546 Mr. Filch sees an apparently dead Mrs. Norris and accuses Harry of killing her. Dumbledore arrives with several other teachers and everyone goes to Lockhart's offices. As Dumbledore inspects the cat, Snape appears to be trying not to smile and Lockhart babbles on about himself. Dumbledore says the cat has been Petrified and that no second year student was capable of this sort of Dark Magic. Filch admits he is a Squib. Snape then seeks to discover what the Trio was doing in the upstairs corridor instead of attending the feast. When he is not satisfied with their explanation, Snape suggests removing Harry from the Gryffindor Quidditch team until he is ready to be honest. McGonagall sharply tells Snape that there is no evidence that Harry has done anything wrong and Dumbledore agrees with her. The Trio is allowed to go. They stop in an empty classroom to discuss matters. Harry asks if they thought he should have told the professors about the voice he heard. Ron vaguely remembers something about a secret chamber and explains what a Squib is to Harry. For the next few days, Mrs. Norris is a hot topic among the student body. Hermione takes the unusual step of quesitoning Professor Binns in History of Magic for whatever knowledge he can impart on the Chamber of Secrets. This causes quite a stir as the students generally fall asleep during Binns' lectures. Reliable facts, Binns tells them, indicated a growing rift between Salazar Slytherin and the other three Hogwarts founders, as Slytherin wanted magical learning to be kept within all-magic families. Eventually, Slytherin and Gryffindor had a serios argument on the subject and Slytherin left the school. According to legend, Slytherin built a secret chamber whcih he sealed when he left the school. The other founders were unaware of it, and only the true heir to Slytherin would be able to open it. The heir could then release the horror hidden in the chamber and use it to purge Hogwarts of all those who were deemed unworthy to study magic. The students attempt to discuss this further, but Binns insists that it is all myth. After class the Trio find themselves in the upstairs corridor again and decide to look around for clues. They see a line of spiders fighting to get through a small crack. There are scorch marks on the floor. The three go into the out-of-order bathroom where Moaning Myrtle spends her time. They ask her if she noticed anything the night of the attack on Mrs. Norris, but she is not helpful and dives into her toilet. As they leave the bathroom, Percy catches them and scolds them for sneaking around this area. He tells Ron that Ron should be concerned about Ginny, because this incident has upset her greatly. Ron accuses Percy of being more concerned about his chances forl making Head Boy than of any real distress about Ginny's feelings. That evening the three try to figure out who might be Slytherin's heir and their suspicion falls on Draco Malfoy. Hermione comes up with the idea of using Polyjuice Potion to disguise themselves as Slytherins so that they can quesiton Draco. This will entail getting a book from the Restricted Section of the Library. Ron predicts that only a teacher who was really thick could be tricked into granting them permission. Questions: 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? 2. Is Snape's suggestoin that Harry be removed from the Quidditch team reasonable? 3. We know Harry is not very trusting of adults. Even so, and leaving aside what it would do to the plot, do you think Harry should have told Dumbledore about hearing a disembodied voice no one else can hear? 4. Why does the incorporeal Myrtle cause the water in the toilet to splash when she dives in? 5. Is Ron correct that Percy cares more about becoming Head Boy than he does about Ginny? 6. What is it about getting competent teachers for this school? Can't Dumbledore/Hogwarts Board of Govenors find a living, vital person to teach History of Magic, or are they happy at not having to pay anyone a salary for this position? 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is a particular need to do so? Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 20 10:31:55 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:31:55 -0000 Subject: Chap. 10 Summary: The Rogue Bludger Message-ID: <9lqour+eodv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24547 Lockhart no longer brings live creatures to class. Instead, he reenacts events from his books, usually asking Harry to play the part of the creature. Hermione asks Lockhart if he will sign a permission slip allowing her to borrow Most Potente Potions from the Library. Lockhart is happy to oblige and tries to talk to Harry about the next day's Quidditch match against Slytherin. The Trio borrow the book and hide in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom to see what they need to make the potion. Several ingredients will be difficult to obtain, including bits of whichver Slytherins they wish to turn into. Ron gets second thoughts when he realizes how much they will have to steal, but Hermione's annoyance makes them decide to go through with it. At the Quidditch match Gryffindor captian Wood reminds the team that the Slytherins have better brooms and tells Harry, "Get to that Snitch before Malfoy or die trying." Once the game starts, it becomes obvious that one of the Bludgers has been fixed so that all it does is attack Harry. During a time out, Harry insists that the Weasley twins stop trying to protect him, and let him deal with the Bludger himself. When play resumes, Harry sees the Snitch near Draco, who doesn't notice it because he's busy laughing at Harry's acrobatic avoidance of the Bludger. Harry's arm is struck by the Bludger, but he dives towards the Snitch and successfully captures it. As he hits the ground, Harry passes out, only to wake up and find Lockhart about to perform a simple charm to fix Harry's arm. Harry wants no part of this, but Lockhart insists and ends up removing all the bones. Once at the Hospital, Madame Pomfrey starts the process of regrowing Harry's bones by making him drink Skele-Gro. Ron wonders how Hermione can stick up for Lockhart after this incident but she insists that "anyone can make a mistake." Harry settles in for the night, but is awakened by Dobby. In the course of their conversation Dobby admits that he caused the barrier at the train station to close, thus stranding Harry and Ron. He was also the one who tampered with the Bludger. Dobby's reason for wanting Harry safe at home and away from Hogwarts is that Harry is a symbol for the lowly and enslaved, who's lot was improved after Voldemort's fall. And, now Dobby feels Harry is in danger because history is about to repeat itself now that the Chamber is open. Dobby seems to know who opened the dooe, but he won't tell Harry. Dumbledore and McGonagall appear in the Hospital carrying Colin Creevey, who has been Petrified. Dumbledore informs them that this means that the Chamber of Secrets has opened. When McGonagall asks who opened it, Dumbledore's response is "The question is not who, the question is how." Questions: 1. Was Lockhart telling the truth when he said he had been a Seeker and had been asked to try out for the National Team? 2. Why is it taking so long to get Myrtle's bathroom repaired? 3. Does Hermione's enthusiasm for making the Polyjuice Potion arise out of her concern for the threats against non-pure wizards, or are Harry and Ron finally wearing off on her? 4. Why doesn't Madame Hooch, the referee at the Quidditch match, realize that one of the Bludgers has been tampered with? 5. Why does Lockhart continue to imply that he is good at everything - healing charms, Quidditch, DADA - when most of what he does blows up in his face? 6. House elves obviously have powerful magic. Why don't they use that power to escape their enslavement? Why do they only get their freedom if their master presents them with an article of clothing? 7. When Dumbledore says that the Chamber is open, he says the question isn't who opened the room, but how. Does this mean that Dumbledore already knows who opened the Chamber? Marianne - who will do a brief summary of Trave/Transportation on Wednesday. From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Mon Aug 20 10:50:37 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:50:37 -0000 Subject: Children's Literature and adult categories Message-ID: <9lqq1t+c7sd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24548 Children and fiction This leader from the Guardian (18 August 2001) may be of interest it says the days of separate adults' and children's literature categories may be over as far a literary awards are concerned. (Occasion is inclusion of Philip Pullman into shortlist for the years Whitbread prize) http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4241419,00.html text includes: This year's Whitbread children's shortlist contained two novels worthy of the overall prize, Coram Boy, by Jamila Gavin, and David Almond's Heaven Eyes. Both stories have darker elements than their predecessors, though they are also life-filled and life-affirming. They offer a highly simplified view of experience, as do Pullman and JK Rowling. But so does much adult fiction. Segregation of genres may remain valid commercially and as a filter for parents. In judging the best writing, it is now redundant. And this in the `Independent on Sunday (19 August)- an interview with Philip Pullman http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=89511 It has this section which may be fighting words in this forum: >>> Pullman is often mentioned in the same breath as J K Rowling: both create richly detailed magical universes, and both appeal to all ages. When asked whether Rowling caused a change in the way we view children's books, he sounds slightly hurt: "I like to think I played a part too, because my first book in the trilogy was published in 1995, before the first Harry Potter book, and I was getting picked up by adults right from the start." Rowling's hissable villains tend to be signposted by evil names and nasty attributes: they are malevolent through and through. With Pullman, you get the impression that his evil characters have chosen to be that way: "Free will is much more interesting. I like it when characters are surprised into good deeds. When a character whom you've come to think of as pretty warped and horrid suddenly does something that takes them by surprise by being rather good." <<< Um - maybe a considered comment might be given to the IOS? Edis Bevan From djtarb at aol.com Mon Aug 20 11:51:17 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:51:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] I'm new here... whats the current theories on... Message-ID: <1e.19ce7f20.28b253b6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24549 In a message dated Sun, 19 Aug 2001 6:35:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lou_lou_san at yahoo.co.uk writes: > Hello, having just found this group, I was hoping to find out others > opinions on: > > The prior incantantem at the end of GoF, the order of Lily and Jamaes > doesn't seem to make sence. > Thank you! I've always wondered this myself...V himself claims to have killed Harry's dad first, and this agrees with Harry's vague memories, but Harry's dad comes out of the wand before his mom. I don't get it! > Why did Sirius have to hang around as a stray near Hogsmeade rather > than hiding out with someone who lived there (possibly a convinently > moved Lupin, financed by Sirius) > I don't believe that Lupin would be allowed to live in Hogsmeade, being a known werewolf and all. Diane in PA From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 20 12:25:46 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:25:46 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lqvka+nhre@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24550 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > Mr. Filch sees an apparently dead Mrs. Norris and accuses Harry of > 6. What is it about getting competent teachers for this school? > Can't Dumbledore/Hogwarts Board of Govenors find a living, vital > person to teach History of Magic, or are they happy at not having to > pay anyone a salary for this position? What makes you think that Binns is going unpaid? - CMC From tabouli at unite.com.au Mon Aug 20 13:18:30 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:18:30 +1000 Subject: The Gilding of Gilderoy, cat caperings, Mandarin mutterings Message-ID: <004901c1297a$b98785a0$801d6fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 24551 Eric: > Molly Weasley *speaking very slowly and deceptively gently*: > >Let me see if I've got this straight...you _knew_ where my baby daughter >was...and you proposed to _leave_ her there to _die?_ > >*a beat* > >I'LL KILL YOU! I'LL MOIDILIZE YOU! I'LL RIP YOUR LUNGS OUT AND MAKE A >MILKSHAKE WITH THEM! GIVE ME MY WAND! (different post) > Just imagine how many students he could have seduced, if > he had been inclined to do so. Amanda: > But sex can mess up a hairdo that took simply *hours* to get perfect! With Lockhart, I come up against my lifelong conflict between what I like in a fictional character and what I like in an actual person. As a person, Lockhart is undeniably a nasty, narcissistic piece of work. However, as a fictional character, he's great fun. So gloriously awful I want to applaud, especially in the Valentine's Day scene... "I'm sure my colleagues will want to enter into the spirit of the occasion! Why not ask Professor Snape to show you how to whip up a love potion?" As for being so worried about looking good that one doesn't want to have sex, this is surely a case of the means overtaking the ends! All the same, Gilderoy evidently cares a lot what people think about him, otherwise why spend so much of his life faking his way to fame? "But enough about me... what do *you* think of me?" Robyn: > There's fantasy literature where the cat has the magic of the person, the non talented person who is actually so talented that he unconsciously transfers his magic to a harmless form lest he harm someone. There's also all those fables where the wizard's heart and source of magical power is in a creature and to defeat the wizard, you defeat the creature. Or there's a magical parasite idea, where the cat is actually stealing the wizard's power. < Oooo, now *this* is interesting. An interesting possibility for Filch and Mrs Norris, and Mrs Figg and her cats. Note that Mrs Figg is married... maybe she married a muggle, given she lives in Muggledom. Perhaps she married Accountant Weasley...? I wonder how the magic gene works: could a squib and a muggle have magical children? *Would* a wizard marry a squib, or are squibs outcast and unmarriageable? re: Chinese translation: My Chinese, once almost up to a simple newspaper article, has now degenerated well beyond anything approaching good enough to read the Chinese versions of HP, but I *did* manage to crowbar an article on translating HP into Chinese into a cross-cultural training program I ran at a College of the Arts. It talked about the difficulties of translating the concepts and nuances of JKR's work into the language of a completely different culture, and I printed it out and added annotations for my audience to help them relate it to their experiences of teaching the arts to international students. Marcus: > (Hermione)'s the class swot, remember? Some people were speculating on Hermione's magical talent, as opposed to her effort, implying that Harry has more raw talent, and she is "book smart" only. (obligatory cultural insert: note that not all cultures separate ability and effort: some consider diligence intrinsic to intelligence... Hermione would fit right in!). Backed up, of course, by JKR, who said that post 3rd year, Harry would beat her in a duel. What do people think about this? Is Hermione really only an above-average witch who studies herself into the ground, or is she genius-level ability as well as effort? Michelle V. > I'm not sure where lycanthropes like Lupin (I love alliteration :) ) A fellow fan! We should form the AAAA (Altruistic Alliterators Alliance Anonymous)... Tabouli [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tabouli at unite.com.au Mon Aug 20 13:20:50 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:20:50 +1000 Subject: The AAAA Message-ID: <005601c1297a$ef61d680$801d6fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 24552 I just had a worrying thought about the Altruistic Alliterators Alliance Anonymous: we would, of course, be in the dubious company of Lockhart... Tabouli [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From frantyck at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 13:47:36 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:47:36 -0000 Subject: license plates Message-ID: <9lr4do+esnq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24553 During yesterday's furious sprint down the freeway, I spotted a car whose license plate read ALBUS D. It was a macchina much more potente than my feeble Honda, so I couldn't draw alongside and make friendly gestures... If it was one of you, HI! Has anyone else come across other HP plates? I'm tempted to change mine! Too funny. From frantyck at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 14:08:28 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:08:28 -0000 Subject: Robes (silly question) and more In-Reply-To: <9lq5hp+jgtf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lr5ks+92lu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24554 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "CJK" wrote: > > > > Maybe robes are the equivalent of formal wear (like a jacket > and tie) > > > and Hagrid is wearing the equivalent of a T-shirt and jeans? > > > > > Ok, then, if that's the case, why do they wear robes to the > QWC ? > > > > Hmm... okay, I'm grasping at straws here. Another theory - > Robes are "proper > > wizards'" clothing. Do we know if Flich's always/ever wearing > them? Maybe > > only acknowledged wizards and witches wear robes, and > Hagrid doesn't count > > as one because he never graduated Hogwarts? > > > > Help me out here, I'm drowning. :) > > > > CJK > > > I think you've got a point. Hagrid never graduated from Hogwarts, > having been expelled (unjustly, as it turns out) and I'm wondering > if the robes are the equivalent of 'Dr.' in front of the name of a > PhD graduate - only those who've successfully completed their > task/doctorate get 'em. For someone as large as Hagrid, robes might be a bit of a hindrance, especially since he's a gamekeeper, etc. and has to deal with divers animals. What does Hagrid wear to Hogwarts dinners? (Sorry, my books haven't arrived yet.) The theory that you earn your robes still holds, although it's a bit depressing to think of such blatantly visual signifiers of class and status in the small wizarding world. Once again, medieval/early modern echoes: each person has his or her place in the social structure, and must always dress and behave accordingly. Where I come from, once boys enter 8th grade, they wear trousers and not shorts. It's an eagerly-awaited transition, a small rite of manhood. Indeed, after the 8th grade, they must not wear shorts to school or on formal occasions. There are comparable rules about girls' clothes as well. Perhaps this explains why witches and wizards wear robes outdoors, even to the QWC, it's an established social habit. Or perhaps it just sets them apart from Muggles, which they like. This window onto wizarding etiquette is fascinating... is there more to be said? From usergoogol at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 15:51:33 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:51:33 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle In-Reply-To: <9lpttd+irdb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lrbm5+b7j0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24555 I think that magic is like the mugglish phenomena of telekenesis. Except, wizards are very weak, magically, so they need things like wands (magnify) and spells (to remind the brain.) If someone had an amazing amount of magic, they could just think, and get whatever they wanted. You know, near omnipotence. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 20 15:54:08 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:54:08 -0000 Subject: spells: thinking like a Muggle, etc. - license plates Message-ID: <9lrbr0+fhqk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24556 Steve, terrific post. I believe that there are laws governing spells, which one may call physical or not. It's hard for Muggle minds to comprehend them, but magical folk learn what they are; e.g. Accio might work differently in different circumstances, but it doesn't work in *every* circumstance; maybe it does require an open window. . . . or maybe not--I like Rita's view of how things are Summoned long-distance (a sort of hyperspace, if one wants to try to translate into Muggle physics), and think the Trio had it wrong when they imagined a problem with the aqualung. The spell would certainly be more useful if one didn't have to remember to open windows and so on before one left home for the day; imagine being faced with Voldemort and you can't Summon something you really need because you shut the dratted drawer. But there are other spells to deal with closed doors and windows, which you could use together with Accio if necessary. Anyway, my point is that we Muggles *can* continue to speculate about spell mechanics because magic does have a logic of its own (cf the essay from this brilliant mind on the nature of magic ). We just need to keep in mind that when we hit a brick wall in our attempt to understand that logic, the answer is "that's because we're Muggles." Robyn brings up the potential for mayhem. One of my favorite things about the books (the list has about 500 items on it by now) is the way JKR revels in the mischief-making possibilities of magic. You get the sense that the first thing she thought up when she was putting together this magical world was a joke shop. Wizard Barruffio: There is no f in "Wingardium Leviosa," so I've assumed that Flitwick isn't talking about that spell in particular but reminding the students (who are, after all, *very* new at this Charms business) that correct pronunciation is important. Who knows what spell poor old Wizard B. was trying to cast, but one doubts he intended to say the spell that puts one under a buffalo. I agree with Steve, though, that intention is so important that mispronunciation might not always cause one's spell to go off track. frantyck wrote: > During yesterday's furious sprint down the freeway, I spotted a car > whose license plate read ALBUS D. It was a macchina much more potente > than my feeble Honda, With Albus D at the wheel, I don't doubt it. Amy Z who would settle for a bumpersticker, if only WB made funny ones -------------------------------------------------- The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that stood alone in the middle of the grounds. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban -------------------------------------------------- From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 20 16:38:23 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:38:23 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle In-Reply-To: <9lptap+veno@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lredv+bfpv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24557 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > > > I agree with nearly all you post. However, I do disagree with this: > > > > > It also means that Hermione > > > can create a spell on the spot > > > > Steve, this is Hermione we're talking about. You are likely > correct > > in that third years probably don't study it. It also is unlikely > > that first years learn "Alohomora" before Halloween, but we find > her > > knowing it. She's the class swot, remember? > > > > Granted, but I still don't believe that she learned a spell that > moves a tree. That isn't even a logical spell to have. You're forgetting something. That spell is *famous* in magical history...what else could have moved Birnam wood to Dunsinane hill? It's only in our Muggle version of things, courtesy of William Shakespeare and "MacBeth", that 'twas done by chicanery and the actual trees didn't move at all. What's odd is that Hermione insists that jinxes need eye-contact, but other similar spells, such as accio and stupefy, don't. And incidentally, if the MOM wizards stood in a circle to cast Stupefy in GoF, and Harry was in the middle of the circle and had to duck to avoid being hit, how did the wizards avoid stunning each other? No doubt it all makes sense to wizards, but is incomprehensible to the Muggle mind. Pippin From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Mon Aug 20 16:43:05 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:43:05 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle In-Reply-To: <9lrbm5+b7j0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lremp+bg4m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24558 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > I think that magic is like the mugglish phenomena of telekenesis. Except, wizards are very weak, magically, so they need things like wands (magnify) and spells (to remind the brain.) > If someone had an amazing amount of magic, they could just think, and get whatever they wanted. You know, near omnipotence. Harry has managed a couple of times, both before he knew he was a wizard - the hair that grew back overnight, the shrinking sweater, the disappearing glass at the reptile house & flying to the top of the school kitchen - and after - shattering Aunt Marge's wineglass as well as inflating Aunt Marge. He didn't have or use a wand for any of those. Can anyone recall anyone else performing magic without a wand? Neville was dropped from the second floor and bounced, I remember, but that's probably more of an inherent survival mechanism (for a wizard, I mean) and not really 'performing' magic. Bente From vderark at bccs.org Mon Aug 20 16:56:26 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:56:26 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle In-Reply-To: <9lremp+bg4m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lrffr+qou@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24559 re: shattering Aunt Marge's wineglass as > well as inflating Aunt Marge. Just to stir your thinking up a little, consider this...I am wondering if the wineglass incident might not have been the work of another person instead of Harry. After all, Petunia's family was getting trashed pretty thoroughly by someone who she doesn't really like all that much. Was that Petunia's version of the vanishing glass syndrome? Probably not, okay, I realize, but it's an interesting thought... Steve From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:32:04 2001 From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:32:04 -0000 Subject: School Governors in Britain In-Reply-To: <9lqlvj+bb1v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lrhil+t6l4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24560 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote: > Official information on the duties of School Governors in Britain is > on this government FAQ (warning probably morqe iformation than you > ever wanted to know) > > Public Schools (ie private schools) governing bodies will in > addition have responsibilities to make sure that fees and other > income are as appropriate, and managing funds. It is likely that > major finacial assets will be the responsibility of trustees who > report to the Governors. > > Broadly the Governors are responsible for a range of statutory duties > and planning the policy of the school. In Britain the Head Teacher > is responsible for actually implementing this policy and in practice > adegere eof separation of powers emerges which should be familiar to > US people > > So for example Governors would set out a general dress code but its > up to the Head and staff to interpret this. Governors should not > second guess the professional teaching staff on lesson presentation > but can influence educational patterns within the agreed curriculum > by finding some parts more readily than others, > > They should also ensure a proper system of pastoral care and ? for > example ? provide a mechanism for dealing with bullying of pupils by > staff. Which raises questions as to how effective Hogwarts governors > are (Snape are you listening?) > > Edis > > http://www.dfee.gov.uk/governor/faq.htm From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 17:43:29 2001 From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:43:29 -0000 Subject: School Governors in Britain In-Reply-To: <9lqlvj+bb1v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lri81+ft2p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24561 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote: > Official information on the duties of School Governors in Britain is > on this government FAQ (warning probably morqe iformation than you > ever wanted to know) > http://www.dfee.gov.uk/governor/faq.htm Hogwarts is in Scotland and most Scottish schools do not have school governors, they have School Boards. A more appropriate link, therefore may be www.schoolboard-scotland.com/all_about_sbs/all_about_schoolboards.htm There may be some fee-paying schools in Scotland that have Governors but all Scottish Schools come under the jurisdiction of the Scottish Executive Education Department and certainly not under the DFEE. Sorry if another message appeared from me on this subject - but my computer crashed whilst I was sending it. Regards Pam From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Aug 20 18:46:41 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:46:41 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lrluh+a9cq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24562 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > Questions: > > 2. Is Snape's suggestoin that Harry be removed from the Quidditch > team reasonable?> Snape and McGonagall seem to have a friendly competition going over Quidditch, and he knows if Harry isn't playing, his team has a much better chance of winning the House Cup. He knows how much McGonagall wants her team to win. I also think Snape just loves to try and take anything away from Harry that is important to Harry. What a dear Snape is! > > 3. We know Harry is not very trusting of adults. Even so, and > leaving aside what it would do to the plot, do you think Harry should have told Dumbledore about hearing a disembodied voice no one else can hear?> Harry likes to figure things out on his own and his pride is as much of an issue for him as is his mistrust of adults. It is also quite typical of 12 year olds to worry that they'll get in trouble for things that we as adults know would not get us in trouble for. > > 4. Why does the incorporeal Myrtle cause the water in the toilet to > splash when she dives in?> I am a firm believer in ghosts and I think that when ghosts want to, they certainly can make things move. Given Myrtle's high running emotions, I suspect her energy could be quite poltergeist-like at times. --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************* From linman6868 at aol.com Mon Aug 20 18:59:40 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:59:40 -0000 Subject: Ghosts and Physics (was Chap. 9 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9lrluh+a9cq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lrmms+paul@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24563 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > > 4. Why does the incorporeal Myrtle cause the water in the toilet to > > splash when she dives in?> > > I am a firm believer in ghosts and I think that when ghosts want to, > they certainly can make things move. Given Myrtle's high running > emotions, I suspect her energy could be quite poltergeist-like at > times. Well, and as to that, I've always wondered how it is that ghosts can make noise. They don't have corporeal vocal chords, yet Binns can clear his throat with the sound of chalk snapping in CoS. It seems to me that JKR's ghosts can do a lot of physical things that you wouldn't expect a mere specter to be able to do; but I've hesitated nitpicking on it because I didn't want to spoil any Magic. Hmmm.... Lisa I. From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Aug 20 19:04:48 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:04:48 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle In-Reply-To: <9lrffr+qou@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lrn0g+supp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24564 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > Just to stir your thinking up a little, consider this...I am > wondering if the wineglass incident might not have been the work of > another person instead of Harry. After all, Petunia's family was > getting trashed pretty thoroughly by someone who she doesn't really > like all that much. Was that Petunia's version of the vanishing glass syndrome?> Hey Steve - Not too long ago Magda proposed the same idea (sadly, she has unsubbed for a while) and I thought that idea was just brilliant. Now I think you are brilliant too. I have long suspected Petunia of being a witch (thanks to my mom suggesting it) and I also wonder how she feels about *others* criticizing her family. Other people here have said that they can criticize family members, but if someone outside does, watch out! You know, maybe it was the combination of Harry and Petunia's anger that caused Marge to blow up like that. What happened to her was no small thing. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever really find out. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************** From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Aug 20 19:08:41 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:08:41 -0000 Subject: Chap. 10 Summary: The Rogue Bludger In-Reply-To: <9lqour+eodv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lrn7p+tmq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24565 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: Thanks for the summaries. Good questions! > > Questions: > > 1. Was Lockhart telling the truth when he said he had been a Seeker > and had been asked to try out for the National Team?> Hell, no! > 5. Why does Lockhart continue to imply that he is good at > everything - healing charms, Quidditch, DADA - when most of what he > does blows up in his face?> Because he's an ass. Sorry for such a short response - I just couldn't resist! --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************************** From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Mon Aug 20 19:30:03 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:30:03 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle In-Reply-To: <9lrffr+qou@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lrofs+b81m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24566 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > re: shattering Aunt Marge's wineglass as > > well as inflating Aunt Marge. > > Just to stir your thinking up a little, consider this...I am > wondering if the wineglass incident might not have been the work of > another person instead of Harry. After all, Petunia's family was > getting trashed pretty thoroughly by someone who she doesn't really > like all that much. Was that Petunia's version of the vanishing glass > syndrome? > > Probably not, okay, I realize, but it's an interesting thought... > > Steve It certainly is interesting! I remember hearing a rumor a while back (and that may be all it is, a rumor) to the effect that someone who hasn't done any magic so far will be doing something magical later in life, in a later book, and I immediately assumed it to be Petunia. There are other options too, of course, like Filch or Mrs. Figg (if she is a squib, which I personally don't think), but I would enjoy seeing the Dursleys become more open to the magical world, even if their dislike of it makes for very funny reading. What makes you think that Petunia doesn't like Aunt Marge, though? Did I miss something? Bente From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 21:14:29 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:14:29 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lrujm+tfaa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24567 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > Questions: > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying > not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? Snape always has a peculiar expression where Harry is concerned. A mixture of hatred of Harry, sadism when he sees him in a difficult situation, and as he is always looking for reasons to punish Harry, he is probably gloating as well. But, he does often look at Harry in a calculated way which makes me think that he knows something we don't. > 2. Is Snape's suggestoin that Harry be removed from the Quidditch > team reasonable? Of course not! Self interest at play here. Of course he wants Harry off the team - he wants Slytherin to continue winning. > 3. We know Harry is not very trusting of adults. Even so, and > leaving aside what it would do to the plot, do you think Harry should > have told Dumbledore about hearing a disembodied voice no one else > can hear? One of the frustrating things about CoS for me. I think (and understandable, though misguided) that Harry is slower than he should be in trusting and confiding in Dumbledore. > 5. Is Ron correct that Percy cares more about becoming Head Boy than > he does about Ginny? Now this is one of my major gripes about Ron - he does not show much family loyalty. Percy would never put Head Boy ahead of Ginny, if she were in "mortal danger" etc. Ron does have a propensity to think the worst of his brothers - not only Percy when he says that he would feed any of his family to the Dementors if it would help his career - but also in thinking that Fred and George would do anything for money, when the blackmail thing comes up. IMO, if anyone is disloyal to his family, it is Ron, not Percy. > 6. What is it about getting competent teachers for this school? > Can't Dumbledore/Hogwarts Board of Govenors find a living, vital > person to teach History of Magic, or are they happy at not having to > pay anyone a salary for this position? I agree with Caius - what makes you think he isn't being paid? He could have living relatives that he is passing his salary onto - there are loads of possibilities as to what a ghost could do with their money. I do agree though, that it is time for Professor Binns to go. When I think of the wonderful history teachers I had when at school, I feel really sorry for the Hogwarts students - they really are being sold short. > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? We don't know that the Heir of Slytherin hasn't opened the Chamber in the previous 1000 years. It happened 50 years ago - who's to say it hasn't happened before that? Catherine From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 21:55:31 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:55:31 -0000 Subject: Where have all the Slytherin heirs gone(Was Chap 9) In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ls10j+5uho@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24568 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? > > > Marianne The only facts in the case are that Slytherin disliked mudbloods, built the chamber, and put a basilisk in it. The rest could easily be legend, myth, and rumor. It might be that he just wanted to leave a time-bomb to destroy the school he no longer supported. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a school with a basilisk running loose no matter how pureblooded I was. :) Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 22:41:32 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:41:32 -0000 Subject: Aunt Petunia (Was:spells: hard not to think like a Muggle) In-Reply-To: <9lrffr+qou@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ls3ms+77lq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24569 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > Just to stir your thinking up a little, consider this...I am > wondering if the wineglass incident might not have been the work of > another person instead of Harry. After all, Petunia's family was > getting trashed pretty thoroughly by someone who she doesn't really > like all that much. Was that Petunia's version of the vanishing glass > syndrome? > > Probably not, okay, I realize, but it's an interesting thought... > > Steve I agree. There is nothing concrete to base it on, but I have always thought Aunt Petunia wasn't quite as anti-magical as she made herself out to be. She always seemed to be more anti-Lily than anti-magic. Consider the following: (1) In SS Ch1, she resented the mention of Lily's name. (2) In SS CH3, when Vernon was going crazy trying to avoid the letters, she timidly suggested that this wasn't going to work, implying that they should just let things happen. (3) In SS Ch4, when the flood gates opened in the hut, her complaints were more along the lines of a jealous, resentful sibling rather than anti-magic per se. "It was always Lily this, and Lily that!", I believe she said. (4) If memory serves, just before she got blown up, Aunt Marge had just finished referring to Harry's mother as a b**** in Petunia's hearing. I don't care how much you resent your sister. Them's fight'n words! (5) It was Aunt Petunia who found the letter from Dumbledore. What if she didn't show all the letter to Vernon. A certain part about protections set up around their house and a certain nearby magical person named Figg, perhaps? I've often wondered how Mrs. Figg got the Dursleys to trust her enough to take Harry and not to talk about strange things. Would it not be interesting if Petunia finally admits to Vernon that she's been hiding from him and herself for all these years the fact she can do magic? Since Rowling is not leaving Snape as a cardboard-cutout bad-guy, maybe she is not going to leave Aunt Petunia as a cardboard-cutout bad-gal. Yes, this is all speculation, but it certainly would explain a whole lot and not take too much of a stretch to accept. Marcus From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Aug 20 23:43:18 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:43:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts and Physics (was Chap. 9 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9lrmms+paul@eGroups.com> References: <9lrluh+a9cq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B813E26.17235.DAD644@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 24570 On 20 Aug 2001, at 18:59, linman6868 at aol.com wrote: > Well, and as to that, I've always wondered how it is that ghosts can > make noise. They don't have corporeal vocal chords, yet Binns can > clear his throat with the sound of chalk snapping in CoS. It seems to > me that JKR's ghosts can do a lot of physical things that you wouldn't > expect a mere specter to be able to do; but I've hesitated nitpicking > on it because I didn't want to spoil any Magic. Hmmm.... I suppose for these sorts of questions we'd have to ask _Blithe Spirit_ author Noel Coward... For example, in that play the ghost of Charles' first wife Elvera can only be seen or heard by Charles himself. This suggests to me that ghosts manifest themselves by making a direct contact with the visual, auditory, etc. centers of someone's brain, rather than though the normal sensory channels, so that a ghost can only be perceived by select individuals. In the Potterverse, I suspect that ghosts are undetectable by Muggles. (But how is it that Elvera can touch things and reek Peeves-like havoc, but no one can touch *her*??) -- Dave From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Aug 21 00:31:57 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:31:57 -0000 Subject: I'm new here... whats the current theories on... In-Reply-To: <9lpeul+hcb0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lsa5t+kpmj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24571 Welcome aboard! > What happened to Buckbeak near the end of GoF? Sirius is in the > school and takes dog form to Lupin's so where does he fit into it all? I imagine Sirius has Buckbeak conveniently hidden close by, perhaps in the cave. Once he's away from people, Sirius can change back into personhood and rejoin Buckbeak. > Why did Sirius have to hang around as a stray near Hogsmeade rather > than hiding out with someone who lived there (possibly a convinently > moved Lupin, financed by Sirius) He has more freedom of movement as a stray. > Is there any continuing resentment between Lupin and Black regarding > them each thinking the other had betrayed James and Lily? There > initial embrace indicates not, but if so, why didn't they get in > touch during GoF? I admit that I have a hard time thinking that there isn't some need for the two of them to explain to each other why they each suspected the other. Simply saying, "Hi, I'm sorry, forgive me" after a twelve year separation doesn't cut it with me. I think whatever happened to cause suspicions indicate some sort of trust issues that true friends would want to clear up. Especially when you and your old friend are the only two left of your old gang. However, since this series is about Harry, I doubt we will get any further in-depth examination of this particular aspect of the Remus/Sirius relationship. JKR may just leave it as is, and make it plain through the interactions of the "old crowd" that the two of them are okay with each other and leave it at that. > > > Thanks in advance for your input, and I am glad I have finally found > a discussion group for adult fans, having trawled through some of the > childrens ones. Enjoy - the discussions can get pretty lively and it's always amazing that people keep coming up with new thoughts, ideas and interpretations. Marianne From john at walton.to Tue Aug 21 00:38:12 2001 From: john at walton.to (john at walton.to) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:38:12 EDT Subject: ADMIN: HPFGU Future Database Fixed Message-ID: <2d.104f0777.28b30774@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24572 Hi all, I've just fixed the database in the Main List's Database section which has a bunch of blank spaces for us all to fill in our ideas, hopes, dreams, likes and dislikes about what we can do to make the groups of HPFGU an enjoyable place for everyone, new or old. The direct link is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=10 Add your thoughts, no matter what they are (except, perhaps, for "burn all people who can't spell right all the time at the stake"). The Moderators *need* to hear them in order to make informed decisions about the future of the group. --John __________________________________________ John Walton / Crazy Ivan HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47 @ john at walton.to YM johnwalton_crazyivan ModMail hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com READ OUR ADMIN FILES! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ __________________________________________ From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Aug 21 00:39:16 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:39:16 -0000 Subject: license plates In-Reply-To: <9lr4do+esnq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lsajk+in2k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24573 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote: > During yesterday's furious sprint down the freeway, I spotted a car > whose license plate read ALBUS D. It was a macchina much more potente > than my feeble Honda, so I couldn't draw alongside and make friendly > gestures... If it was one of you, HI! Has anyone else come across > other HP plates? I'm tempted to change mine! Too funny. The state of Connecticut in the US allows up to six characters for what they call "vanity" license plates. Mine is PADFT. Marianne From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Aug 21 01:43:34 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:43:34 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: Ron and Family Loyalty In-Reply-To: <9lrujm+tfaa@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lsec6+n932@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24574 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > Now this is one of my major gripes about Ron - he does not show much > family loyalty. Percy would never put Head Boy ahead of Ginny, if > she were in "mortal danger" etc. Ron does have a propensity to think the worst of his brothers - not only Percy when he says that he would feed any of his family to the Dementors if it would help his career - but also in thinking that Fred and George would do anything for money, when the blackmail thing comes up. IMO, if anyone is disloyal to his family, it is Ron, not Percy.> This is an interesting line of thought, and one I hadn't thought of before. I must admit that I am truly worried about the choices Percy will make in OoP, given his almost blind ambition to succeed in the MoM. I don't see him treating Ginny especially well in CoS either, especially later in the book when he sees she is upset and shoos her away because he is worried that she will expose a secret about him. I'm not sure why you think Ron is disloyal to his family. I'd love to hear more of your reasons as to why you feel that way. --jenny from ravenclaw********************************** From katzefan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 01:56:26 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:56:26 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <9lsf4a+6e9c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24575 >Makes you really grateful Disney didn't get its paws on Harry, >doesn't it? :) >Allyse, shuddering at the thought of an animated Voldemort (MWA HA HA!) Allyse: could've been worse - remember what Disney did to Mary Poppins? Try to envision a *singing* Voldemort. From:??"Amy Z" Date:? Mon?Aug?20,?2001? 3:54 pm >Wizard Barruffio: There is no f in "Wingardium Leviosa," >so I've assumed that Flitwick isn't talking about that >spell in particular but reminding the students (who are, >after all, *very* new at this Charms business) that >correct pronunciation is important. Anybody got any thoughts on the fact `Baruffio' and `buffalo' are themselves not too far apart, sound-wise? From:??foxmoth at q... Date:? Mon?Aug?20,?2001? 4:38 pm Subject:? Re: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle [about Hermione and her tree-moving spell] >You're forgetting something. That spell is *famous* in magical >history...what else could have moved Birnam wood to >Dunsinane hill? Always wondered how they did that! There are more things in heaven and earth, .... From:??Bente13 at p... Date:? Mon?Aug?20,?2001? 7:30 pm Subject:? Re: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle >...but I would enjoy seeing the Dursleys become more open to >the magical world, even if their dislike of it makes for very funny >reading. What makes you think that Petunia doesn't like Aunt >Marge, though? Did I miss something? I think if Petunia Dursley is a witch, she is not likely to admit it even to herself ... except under extreme duress or in a really, really serious jam. I don't think she was just anti-Lily; in Ch. 4 of PS/SS, when she loses her cool, one of the things she says is, "I was the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak!" Yes, there's definitely sibling rivalry there - and plain jealousy - but also someone who definitely fears/hates anybody `different.' And she has certainly not been lax in trying to stamp out Harry's `dangerous' heritage. Which would, of course, make it all the more fascinating if she does turn out to have latent magic powers. I did get the impression Petunia wasn't all that fond of Marge, but mainly because Petunia doesn't like animals and Marge insists on bringing the drooling Ripper with her, who splatters tea all over Petunia's clean kitchen floor. However, as prefectmarcus pointed out, Marge had just used a really nasty term in connection with Lily, and Petunia may be one of the legions of people who can criticize their own family till the cows come home ... but just let someone else do it! katzefan ------------------------- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke (painted on the wall of the local Chapters bookstore) From devika261 at aol.com Tue Aug 21 02:00:46 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:00:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall Message-ID: <110.4278905.28b31ace@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24576 In a message dated 8/20/01 6:11:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Zarleycat at aol.com writes: > Questions: > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying > not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? > Snape also had a strange expression (a "shrewd and calculating" one, IIRC) on his face when Harry revealed himself to be a Parselmouth at the dueling club. Maybe this is just a red herring to make him seem more sinister than he actually is, when really he's just happy to see Harry in potential trouble. Still, though... I wonder how much Snape really knows... > 2. Is Snape's suggestoin that Harry be removed from the Quidditch > team reasonable? Absolutely not. We know about the rivalry between Snape and McGonagall, and Snape was just taking the opportunity to try to weaken the Gryffindor quidditch team. > > 3. We know Harry is not very trusting of adults. Even so, and > leaving aside what it would do to the plot, do you think Harry should > have told Dumbledore about hearing a disembodied voice no one else > can hear? Yes. It always bothers me that Harry knows what a great wizard Dumbledore is, and he always feels safe when Dumbledore is there, but yet he has doubts as to whether Dumbledore would understand his problems. However, I think it's possible that Harry is afraid of revealing to anyone that he is different. Up to this point, he has had doubts about how he fits in at Hogwarts and in the wizarding world in general. He *knows* that hearing voices that no one else can hear isn't a good sign, but he is afraid of being actually told that by someone for whom he has so much respect. I think the same holds for Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue. It is not until the end of the book that he can actually ask Dumbledore what that means. I think Harry was afraid that Dumbledore would confirm his fears that he actually belonged in Slytherin instead of Gryffindor. > > 4. Why does the incorporeal Myrtle cause the water in the toilet to > splash when she dives in? No idea. Because it's magic? > > 5. Is Ron correct that Percy cares more about becoming Head Boy than > he does about Ginny? Percy certainly is very ambitious. That has always been apparent. I do think that when all is said and done, Percy's family comes first. However, it may take something drastic to make him realize this. > > 6. What is it about getting competent teachers for this school? > Can't Dumbledore/Hogwarts Board of Govenors find a living, vital > person to teach History of Magic, or are they happy at not having to > pay anyone a salary for this position? Prof. Binns had probably been teaching exactly the same way before he died, and if he saw no change, then why should anyone else? Maybe it's a form of discrimination to fire someone just because he's a ghost. Imagine the lawsuits... In any case, I don't think there's any reason to believe that he isn't getting paid. > > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? The Chamber was only opened 50 years ago. It may have been opened before then. But maybe the other heirs of Slytherin weren't quite as evil as Tom Riddle/Voldemort. Devika :) *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them." --Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's [Philosopher's] Stone *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Tue Aug 21 02:19:08 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:19:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chap. 10 Summary: The Rogue Bludger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24577 In a message dated 8/20/01 6:32:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Zarleycat at aol.com writes: > Questions: > > 1. Was Lockhart telling the truth when he said he had been a Seeker > and had been asked to try out for the National Team? Of course not. He's Lockhart. > > 2. Why is it taking so long to get Myrtle's bathroom repaired? Probably because no one really uses it anyway. Or maybe Myrtle is causing more problems. > > 3. Does Hermione's enthusiasm for making the Polyjuice Potion arise > out of her concern for the threats against non-pure wizards, or are > Harry and Ron finally wearing off on her? I'd say a combination of the two. And we know that when our Hermione gets an idea in her head, she acts on it. This is just a precursor to S.P.E.W. > > 4. Why doesn't Madame Hooch, the referee at the Quidditch match, > realize that one of the Bludgers has been tampered with? Bludgers are supposed to be very difficult to tamper with, so she probably assumed that no one would have been able to do anything to it and that it's strange behavior was just a coincidence. > > 5. Why does Lockhart continue to imply that he is good at > everything - healing charms, Quidditch, DADA - when most of what he > does blows up in his face? Again, he's _Lockhart_. Enough said. > > 6. House elves obviously have powerful magic. Why don't they use > that power to escape their enslavement? Why do they only get their > freedom if their master presents them with an article of clothing? House elves have been trained for generations upon generations to serve their families. They take pride in their work and are (with the exception of Dobby) perfectly happy where they are. It takes a lot more than one renegade house elf to change all of that. As for the clothing, it seems more symbolic than magical. > > 7. When Dumbledore says that the Chamber is open, he says the > question isn't who opened the room, but how. Does this mean that > Dumbledore already knows who opened the Chamber? Dumbledore knows that only Voldemort can open the Chamber. However, Voldemort is currently hiding in the forests of Albania without a real body or many powers. Therefore, Dumbledore knows *who* must be opening the Chamber ("the same person as the last time"); he just doesn't know *how* Voldemort is doing it. Devika :) *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them." --Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's [Philosopher's] Stone *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katzefan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 02:51:51 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:51:51 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lsic7+7b7m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24578 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? I'm guessing the peculiar expression was a combination of a deductive frown and a smirk - the former because Snape is also speculating on what may have happened to the cat, and the smirk because sometimes I think Snape finds it amusing anytime someone else is in a bind -- not to mention he is speculating on how this can be tied in to Harry. 2. Is Snape's suggestion that Harry be removed from the Quidditch team reasonable? Good grief, no. He's just being ... well, Snape. 3. We know Harry is not very trusting of adults. Even so, and leaving aside what it would do to the plot, do you think Harry should have told Dumbledore about hearing a disembodied voice no one else can hear? Of course he *should* have, but I think fairly early on in the book, Ron tells him that "hearing voices no one else can hear isn't a good thing, even for wizards" or something to that effect. So he's now worried that this odd thing is happening to him, and like most kids, I think, is very much afraid that telling an authority figure -- even one as trusted as Dumbledore -- could backfire badly for him. 4. Why does the incorporeal Myrtle cause the water in the toilet to splash when she dives in? Is it possible that ghosts can become a little more corporeal at will? In one of the other books (I think it's GoF) Myrtle talks about not having much choice about ending up in the lake when someone flushes the toilet while she's sitting in the u-bend. Again, if she's completely incorporeal, you'd think any solid material would just pass through her (eeeyuck). So I'm wondering if strong emotion (and Myrtle's usually fairly agitated) or even willpower could allow them to become a little less non-corporeal. 5. Is Ron correct that Percy cares more about becoming Head Boy than he does about Ginny? I don't really think so. Right now Percy looks like he's going to turn into the ultimate paper-shuffler, but I think if *any* member of his family were in serious trouble, he would find his priorities being re-ordered fairly fast ... although someone might have to smack him upside the head to get him to notice just how serious the situation is. 6. What is it about getting competent teachers for this school? Can't Dumbledore/Hogwarts Board of Govenors find a living, vital person to teach History of Magic, or are they happy at not having to pay anyone a salary for this position? Maybe the teachers' contracts don't accept death as an appropriate grounds for dismissal ... ? I also agree with those who suggest Binns might still be drawing a salary, though he himself certainly doesn't need it. It is a pity, though (as someone else has also said) that they can't seem to find someone who could present the subject in a manner not calculated to send the whole class off to Noddy-land. I mean, the History of Magic! You'd have to work really hard to make it as dull a subject as Binns apparently has. 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is a particular need to do so? Hmmm, good question. Is it possible that Slytherin's heirs have appeared throughout the last 1,000 years, but there's been no reason for them to open the Chamber? We now have, in Harry, a distinct threat to Voldemort and his ilk, so the heir of Slytherin who appears in this generation *will* have a reason to open the Chamber. From usergoogol at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 02:53:21 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:53:21 -0000 Subject: Magical Petunia? In-Reply-To: <9lsf4a+6e9c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lsif1+7f9e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24579 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > From:??Bente13 at p... > Date:? Mon?Aug?20,?2001? 7:30 pm > Subject:? Re: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle > > >...but I would enjoy seeing the Dursleys become more open to > >the magical world, even if their dislike of it makes for very funny > >reading. What makes you think that Petunia doesn't like Aunt > >Marge, though? Did I miss something? > > I think if Petunia Dursley is a witch, she is not likely to admit it > even to herself ... except under extreme duress or in a really, > really serious jam. I don't think she was just anti-Lily; in Ch. 4 of > PS/SS, when she loses her cool, one of the things she says is, "I > was the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak!" Yes, > there's definitely sibling rivalry there - and plain jealousy - but > also someone who definitely fears/hates anybody `different.' And > she has certainly not been lax in trying to stamp out Harry's > `dangerous' heritage. > Which would, of course, make it all the more fascinating if she > does turn out to have latent magic powers. > I did get the impression Petunia wasn't all that fond of Marge, but > mainly because Petunia doesn't like animals and Marge insists > on bringing the drooling Ripper with her, who splatters tea all > over Petunia's clean kitchen floor. However, as prefectmarcus > pointed out, Marge had just used a really nasty term in > connection with Lily, and Petunia may be one of the legions of > people who can criticize their own family till the cows come > home ... but just let someone else do it! > Hmm. I'm gonna have to look over the Aunt Marge scene again. Perhaps, Petunia subconciously senses that she is a witch, but believes, mu= ch like many real life muggles do, that Magic is evil, because the bible kin= da says that it is. Therefore, she subconciously supresses her magic, becaus= e it is (in her mind) a sinful thing. Much like homosexuals sometimes supres= s their homosexuality. (I've often thought that its genetic... but lets not = debate religious issues.) It's actually quite logical. It explains why Petun= ia wanted to supress Harry's "oddity." As a "good" (actually, she's a bad on= e) Christian, she feels she should make Harry a good person. (Um, although P= etunia spies on her neighbors.) I am not sure if this is something Joanne Rowling would actually put in, bu= t I personally lve the theory. By the way, if you agree that Homosexuality b= eing a sin, please don't argue. It's just an analogy, and I think a pretty g= ood one at that. From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 03:03:15 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:03:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24580 2. Is Snape's suggestion that Harry be removed from the Quidditch team reasonable? I would think not or else McGonagall would have agreed. We?ve seen before that she can be unbiased even in situations that affect her own house. 3. We know Harry is not very trusting of adults. Even so, and leaving aside what it would do to the plot, do you think Harry should have told Dumbledore about hearing a disembodied voice no one else can hear? Yes, but it?s understandable that he didn?t. It was only Harry?s second year; he wasn?t yet too familiar with Dumbledore. He admires the man and I imagine he doesn?t want someone he admires to view him as deranged. Apparently, even in the Wizarding world, heading voices is _not_ normal. 5. Is Ron correct that Percy cares more about becoming Head Boy than he does about Ginny? I don?t think so or he?d be in Ravenclaw or Slytherin. I think that regardless of his academic ambitions, at heart Percy is a good guy who wants to do the right thing. He finds safety in structure and order, but I have no doubts that he would be among the first to leave the Ministry and join Dumbledore in the fight against Lord V. 6. What is it about getting competent teachers for this school? Can't Dumbledore/Hogwarts Board of Governors find a living, vital person to teach History of Magic, or are they happy at not having to pay anyone a salary for this position? Binns is boring, but that doesn?t make him incompetent. Perhaps he simply knows more history than any other teacher you may find and despite his ethereal appearance, is the most qualified for the job. 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is a particular need to do so? Or maybe not all Slytherin heirs were evil. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heraldtalia at juno.com Tue Aug 21 02:56:26 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:56:26 -0400 Subject: The Gilding of Gilderoy, Spells: thinking like a Muggle, Robes, Chapter 9 summary - Percy's loyalty Message-ID: <20010820.230223.-254721.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24581 Tabouli wrote: >As for being so worried about looking good that one doesn't want to have sex, this is >surely a case of the means overtaking the ends! All the same, Gilderoy evidently cares a >lot what people think about him, otherwise why spend so much of his life faking his way >to fame? "But enough about me... what do *you* think of me?" An expert in psychology from St. Mungo's might diagnose Gilderoy with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (the American Psychological Association is so omnipresent, they probably have a division of magic. ) In that case, he'd be unable to find anyone attractive enough (compared to his wonderful self) to relate to. No student could possibly come close. Maybe we can fix him up with a nice mirror................... Amy Z. wrote: >I believe that there are laws governing spells, which one may call >physical or not. It's hard for Muggle minds to comprehend them, but >magical folk learn what they are; e.g. Accio might work differently in >different circumstances, but it doesn't work in *every* circumstance; >maybe it does require an open window. >Robyn brings up the potential for mayhem. One of my favorite things >about the books (the list has about 500 items on it by now) is the way >JKR revels in the mischief-making possibilities of magic. You get the >sense that the first thing she thought up when she was putting >together this magical world was a joke shop. There have to be laws governing spells, otherwise there would be no need for Hogwarts. All students would have to learn would be will. Also, poor Wizard Barruffio did not seem to have the intention to have a buffalo on his chest - so the words must have been somewhat important. As far as Accio being blocked by windows, doors, etc. The charm could have the property of choosing a route by which the object will fly to the one who is Summoning it. After all, Harry had to wait a while, long enough for the crowd to grow impatient, before the Firebolt got to him. Also, who's to say there wasn't a shattered window somewhere in Hogwarts? (I begin to sympathise with Mr. Filch) If the Firebolt went into a kind of hyperspace, or *between*, wouldn't it have appeared instantly? We saw the toffees from George's cuffs zoom directly into Mrs. Weasly's hands. frantyk wrote > I think you've got a point. Hagrid never graduated from Hogwarts, > having been expelled (unjustly, as it turns out) and I'm wondering > if the robes are the equivalent of 'Dr.' in front of the name of a > PhD graduate - only those who've successfully completed their > task/doctorate get 'em. >For someone as large as Hagrid, robes might be a bit of a hindrance, >especially since he's a gamekeeper, etc. and has to deal with divers >animals. What does Hagrid wear to Hogwarts dinners? (Sorry, my books >haven't arrived yet.) It seems to me that if Hagrid would want to wear robes, no one would stop him. It's just he's a non comformist and an outdoorsy sort. He probably needs to wear dragonhide trousers to protect himself from his good friends the Skrewts. I have a long, sweeping, old fashioned dress that I wear sometimes, for special occasions. Occasionally, I have to do one last household chore while wearing it. Do you have any idea how hard it is to sweep the floor while wearing skirts down to the floor? Do you know what a pain it is to put things on high shelves (granted, I'm kind of shorter than Hagrid. I'm shorter than Harry, in fact) You're always stepping on the hems and the rustling skirt takes up so much space. I'd imagine Hagrid wouldn't have time for that sort of nonsense. Same with my academic robes - there are no POCKETS in the blasted things. These would not work for cooking, gardening, cleaning, or chasing Weasleys from the Forbidden Forest. (And think how flammable they are! Robes would never stand a chance against Baby Norbert.) On the other hand, they'd be kind of slimming, no? Who cares how much weight you put on over the winter - the robes are forgiving. Zarleycat wrote: > 5. Is Ron correct that Percy cares more about becoming Head Boy than > he does about Ginny? And Catherine answered >Now this is one of my major gripes about Ron - he does not show much >family loyalty. Percy would never put Head Boy ahead of Ginny, if >she were in "mortal danger" etc. Ron does have a propensity to think >the worst of his brothers - not only Percy when he says that he would >feed any of his family to the Dementors if it would help his career - >but also in thinking that Fred and George would do anything for >money, when the blackmail thing comes up. IMO, if anyone is disloyal >to his family, it is Ron, not Percy. I disagree. Percy has some definite blind spots, especially about being Head Boy and rules in general. It's not that he'd deliberately put Ginny in danger, but he'd absolutely refuse to take her seriously, even if the risk that she is right is very high. He's so patronizing and full of himself, he can't even concieve that Ginny's news at the end of PoA - "Harry suddenly realized what Ginny looked like. She was rocking backward and forward slightly in her chair, exactly like Dobby did when he was teetering on the edge of revealing hidden information....." Percy comes over and interrupts, Ron is furious because Ginny said it was something important. "Oh- that- that's nothing to do with the Chamber of Secrets," said Percy at once. Even in a time when the whole school is on edge due to Slytherin's monster, Percy can't possibly imagine that his younger sister could have anything important to say. Now, in GoF, when Dumbledore starts working against (or at least, not *with*) the Ministry, whose side will Percy be on? He's a stickler for rules. Will he give valuable information to Dumbledore against Fudge's express rules? His dearest dream is to be Minister some day. I'm not so sure that in OoP, he'll be so forthcoming. Ron seems very loyal to his family. Sure, they fight, and he is ashamed of them in some ways. But he is concerned about Fred and George when they are planning to blackmail someone,and he is worried about Ginny in CoS. I think his family loyalty is so high that Malfoy spots it and uses it as Ron's weak point - that what he teases him about. Hey, after I wrote this, but before I posted it (see, John Walton - I'm limiting it to one post a day like a good witch should!) I saw jenny from Ravenclaw wrote a similar thing. See, Jenny - we agree on more than just Shel Silverstein. :-) :-) ;-) Robyn ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````````````````` "It is an extremely bad idea to mix magic and cooking." - Morwen, character in Dealing With Dragons by Patricia C. Wrede. (P. 41) ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````````````````` From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 03:27:37 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Barruffio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010821032737.79957.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24582 Herald Talia said: > >In SS, when Harry, Ron and Hermione >are learning the Wingardium Leviosa >charm, Prof. Flitwick says "Never >forget Wizard Barruffio, who said S >instead of F and ended up with a >buffalo on his chest." What am I not >getting? Well, 'bison' has an 'S'. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 03:33:29 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MoM 'Stupefy' At QWC In-Reply-To: <9lredv+bfpv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010821033329.24437.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24583 --- foxmoth at qnet.com wrote: >And incidentally, if the MOM wizards >stood in a circle to cast Stupefy in >GoF, and Harry was in the middle of >the circle and had to duck to avoid >being hit, how did the wizards avoid >stunning each other? Maybe they each used a personal shield charm like the one Harry tried before the 3rd Task (but Hermione shattered his with a well-placed Jelly-Legs Curse). Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From katzefan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 03:34:53 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:34:53 -0000 Subject: Chap. 10 Summary: The Rogue Bludger In-Reply-To: <9lqour+eodv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lskst+rhoh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24584 1. Was Lockhart telling the truth when he said he had been a Seeker and had been asked to try out for the National Team? Given that Lockhart has -- um -- embroidered the truth about all his other so-called accomplishments (OK, he lied outrageously) I can't imagine that this is anything more than yet another delusion of grandeur on his part. 2. Why is it taking so long to get Myrtle's bathroom repaired? Well, if they repair the bathroom, then Myrtle has no way of making her presence known (all that water on Filch's floor!) I'm thinking she prefers it this way and perhaps is even helping to ensure that it stays malfunctioning? She was, after all, a Hogwarts student, even if she never graduated -- surely she mastered some spells, suitable for blocking plumbing and causing pipes to burst ... ? 3. Does Hermione's enthusiasm for making the Polyjuice Potion arise out of her concern for the threats against non-pure wizards, or are Harry and Ron finally wearing off on her? I'd say a combination of both. We see in the first book that she's willing to lie to get Harry and Ron out of trouble (thereby saving her from a fate worse than death ... no, not the troll: growing up to be a female version of Percy.) I think friendship is starting to even out the scales, which, in the beginning of PS/SS, were really badly tilted in favour of good grades/good marks for behaviour. 4. Why doesn't Madame Hooch, the referee at the Quidditch match, realize that one of the Bludgers has been tampered with? Perhaps Madame Hooch is not a really fanatic Quidditch fan, and simply assumes this is how Bludgers behave? Their main purpose, after all, is to try to knock players off their brooms, and if she's only a casual Quidditch fan, she may not realize that no Bludger is supposed to focus on any one player. 5. Why does Lockhart continue to imply that he is good at everything - healing charms, Quidditch, DADA - when most of what he does blows up in his face? Up until he started teaching at Hogwarts, I didn't get the impression things *were* blowing up in his face. He was travelling around, signing books, flashing a 150-watt smile everywhere and generally living it up. It wasn't until he was in a position where he had to back up his claims with action that he failed repeatedly. By that time, he had too much to lose - and far too big an ego - to admit he's been leading people down the garden path for quite a while. 6. House elves obviously have powerful magic. Why don't they use that power to escape their enslavement? Why do they only get their freedom if their master presents them with an article of clothing? They have powerful magic, but even magic has some limitations - theirs may be limited because of their servitude. Once Dobby is freed, he is both willing and able to use his magic to send Lucius Malfoy out the door with a flea in his ear -- I thought it significant that Malfoy, for all his power, didn't dare try to retaliate against Dobby, even though Dobby had just send him tumbling down the stairs. As for the clothing, a wonderful book called The Vanishing People (Katharine Briggs) says fairy lore throughout England, Scotland and Ireland reports that a gift of clothing is enough to drive a house spirit away. Some stories say it's because the house spirit must perform drudgery until he/she is rewarded; other stories suggest that, once clothing is given, the house spirit considers himself/herself too fine to continue performing chores. 7. When Dumbledore says that the Chamber is open, he says the question isn't who opened the room, but how. Does this mean that Dumbledore already knows who opened the Chamber? It certainly sounds like it. I'm wondering why the `how' is so important. Could that have something to do with what is to come? ------------------------------- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke (painted on the wall of the local Chapters bookstore) From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 03:45:37 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: <9lremp+bg4m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010821034537.6439.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24585 --- Bente13 at peoplepc.com wrote: >Harry has managed a couple of times, >both before he knew he was a wizard - >[SNIP] - and after - [SNIP] He didn't >have or use a wand for any of those. >Can anyone recall anyone else >performing magic without a wand? There seems to be two types of wandless magic: accidental and (for lack of a better term) intentional. The things you listed Harry doing would fall in the Accidental category. There must be quite a bit of this type of inadvertent magic as Fudge tells Harry members of the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad have been to Privet Drive & punctured Aunt Marge. As for Intentional wandless magic, we see Albus Dumbledore do it a few times. No books or notes handy, but I do clearly remember him changing the house colors on the decorations at the End of Year feast in SS/PS. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 03:57:56 2001 From: jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com (jessewilliams44 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:57:56 -0000 Subject: Floo Regulation Commitee Message-ID: <9lsm84+jkj4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24586 In COS when Harry and the Weasly's traveled by floo powder to Diagon alley everyone took a pinch of floo powder. In GOF when the Weasleys came to Harry up Mr Weasley threw one pinch into the fire and they all travelled by it. My question to the group is what was the difference between the travels in COS and GOF wouldn't it have been more economical if nothing else for the Weasleys to have only used one pinch instead of one for each person. We know that it was not a time constraint issue because Harry and Mr.Weasley lurked for a few minutes it seems to me. Watching Dudley's tongue grow, and waiting for the Dursley's to say goodbye to Harry. I'm terribly sorry about the spelling and punctuation errors in this post because I am typing this on a cellular phone and I am having trouble scrolling down. To all of the owners of this group, thank you to all the members, I truly enjoy reading the posts that are put forward on this great site. Which is the best group in Potterverse. Once again thank you for your patience friendly welcome and mind stimulating fun. Jesse From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 21 04:31:33 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:31:33 -0000 Subject: Breathe in Water (filk) Message-ID: <9lso75+9coe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24587 Breathe in Water (from GoF, Chap. 24) (To the tune of Black Water) Dedicated to Pippin (this filk is based on some of the same material as Pippin's Under the Lake, one of the all-time classics ? find it on the Goblet of Fire page on the address given below) THE SCENE: The library. Huge stacks of ancient books piled everywhere. A thoroughly exhausted HARRY (with the assistance of an equally exhausted RON & HERMIONE) desperately scours through volume after volume in the Restricted Section for a charm that will allow him to breathe underwater HARRY Well, I aced the first task but on my laurels I basked Said "February, that's such a long ways" I stopped that Egg's screechin', but no key I'm reachin' It seems I'll be wearing that egg on my face RW & HG: Breath in water, we're researchin' HP: Miscellaneous tomes, won't you please an answer provide? RW & HG: How can Harry swim with perchin'? HP: Misinformin' tomes, on some page the answer you hide RW & HG: Breath in water, keep on searchin' HP: Misassembled tomes, why can't you in Harry confide? HARRY I must soon take a dive, and go full fathom five But can I hit bottom and still survive? But I find no solution Or no resolution, you see You know I've surveyed each book, but still a search engine I lack If I were online, I'd know what to do I'd click Google, HotBot or Yahoo!, and scan the Web all through All three contenders I could then outdo (All fall asleep. Black-out. When lights rise again, they reveal HARRY alone in the library, in deep slumber, his face buried in a copy of Dreadful Denizens of the Deep. Enter DOBBY) DOBBY He's read each book upon the shelf, next time he oughta just ask an elf (DOBBY awakens HARRY, and foists a handful of disgusting green stuff in his face) Gonna eat some slimy gillyweed, `cause it's gonna give you everything you need HARRY If I eat some slimy gillyweed, for a month it's gonna put me off my feed DOBBY Gills and fins you'll get with gillyweed, you'll get your Wheezy back with rapid speed HARRY & DOBBY When I/you eat some slimy gillyweed, I'm/you're at the second task sure to succeed HARRY So I'll eat this slimy gillyweed, as Dobby proves himself a friend indeed HARRY exits toward the Lake, as DOBBY returns to the kitchen - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 21 04:43:18 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:43:18 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wandless Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24588 Kelly the Yarn Junky wrote: As for Intentional wandless magic, we see Albus Dumbledore do it a few times. No books or notes handy, but I do clearly remember him changing the house colors on the decorations at the End of Year feast in SS/PS. **I think that it would be great for Dumbledore to have the ability to do wandless magic...but I don't think that there is any solid proof thus far that he can. Just because the books don't mention that he used his wand doesn't mean that he didn't. Maybe JKR just thinks that that's a given. When we see other characters doing spells JKR doesn't always say that "Hermione raised her wand and blah blah blah..." I'm sure that there are times when she just says that "Hermione did a clever charm on a drawing to make it change colours..." without mentioning her wand at all.... But, as I said... I would LOVE for Dumbledore to be able to do magic without a wand!! Katie** ******************************************************************* 'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' And he fainted. ******************************************************************* _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Tue Aug 21 05:22:38 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:22:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24589 >4. Why does the incorporeal Myrtle cause the water in the toilet to >splash when she dives in? > >Is it possible that ghosts can become a little more corporeal at >will? In one of the other books (I think it's GoF) Myrtle talks >about not having much choice about ending up in the lake when >someone flushes the toilet while she's sitting in the u-bend. >Again, if she's completely incorporeal, you'd think any solid >material would just pass through her (eeeyuck). So I'm >wondering if strong emotion (and Myrtle's usually fairly >agitated) or even willpower could allow them to become a little >less non-corporeal. Remember, also, that when Nearly Headless Nick was petrified they used a fan to move him down the hallway. This, along with the Myrtle details before, suggests that Ghosts are definately corporeal to some extent. Also, it'd be very difficult for Professor Binns to teach if he was completely without substance. How could he pass out an exam, for example, if he was unable to pick up the papers? How could he grade them, without the use of a quill? Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Tue Aug 21 05:31:52 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 05:31:52 -0000 Subject: license plates In-Reply-To: <9lr4do+esnq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lsro8+ttei@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24590 > Has anyone else come across > other HP plates? I'm tempted to change mine! Too funny. I nearly crashed last week when I saw a plate in Auckland, New Zealand -- HGWRTS, with the words 'School of Witchcraft and Wizardry' round the brim. As Fred would say, 'Brilliant!' From catlady at wicca.net Tue Aug 21 06:03:21 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:03:21 -0700 Subject: Chapter Questions - Chinese - Hermione - Jinxes/Magical Theory - Ghost Message-ID: <3B81F9A9.5E9BE888@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24591 Marianne Zarleycat PADFT wrote: > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he > really was trying not to smile, what about this > situation did he find so amusing? Maybe he was amused at the hysterical way that Filch was carrying on and making a fool of himself. Maybe he had had his own run-ins with Mrs Norris in his student days and enjoyed seeing her get hers. Maybe he is suppressing the amusement because there is an explicit rule against laughing *at* a fellow staff member, or maybe because it would be bad tactics to break the Snape-Filch-against-Harry alliance, or maybe because Snape actually does get along well with Filch. Maybe Snape (new theory) has a sympathetic feeling toward Filch because he seems them both as being picked on and victimized by handsome popular Gryffindors, or maybe (old theory) they became friends because of their shared interest, i.e. torturing students. HOWEVER, I just thought that it must feel very odd to Snape to ally with Filch against all students (except Draco) IF Snape spent seven student years being one of Filch's victims.... 2. Is Snape's suggestion that Harry be removed from > the Quidditch team reasonable? If the grown-ups were in agreement that Harry has relevant information and should be forced to reveal that information, removing him from the Quidditch team until he tells would be the most effective way to get him to tell. If they locked him in a cupboard under the stairs without any supper until he told, that would just be what he was used to. But withholding Quidditch -- that is not only the thing he most wants, but brings in considerations of loyalty to his teammates who are counting on him. But Dumbledore stays out of it and McGonagall doesn't believe that Harry knows anything about /a/n/y/t/h/i/n/g/ Mrs Norris's sad fate, so she reacts only to her concern for Gryffindor Quidditch. > 2. Why is it taking so long to get Myrtle's bathroom repaired? IIRC everytime it is repaired, she breaks it again. That would tend to downgrade the priority of repairing it AGAIN... Btw why not CRKSHK? Tabouli wrote: > It talked about the difficulties of translating > the concepts and nuances of JKR's work into the > language of a completely different culture, and > I printed it out Oooh! Oooh! Is it on the web somewhere now? Do you know the URL? > Some people were speculating on Hermione's > magical talent, as opposed to her effort, > implying that Harry has more raw talent, > and she is "book smart" only. (obligatory > cultural insert: note that not all cultures > separate ability and effort: some consider > diligence intrinsic to intelligence... > Hermione would fit right in!). Backed up, > of course, by JKR, who said that post 3rd year, > Harry would beat her in a duel. But we're considering more than two (as counted by MY culture) factors here. Hermione is a diligent student and she ALSO has IMHO very high academic intelligence, but does she have very high, high, or merely average magical power/talent? The raw innate ability to do magic (once trained) is a third factor, like having exceptionally good eyesight. (Relevant digression on intelligence and eyesight: Lee's old optometrist, who has retired , when giving the eyechart test, would adjust the score of correct answers according to the patient's 'intelligence', because the 'intelligent' patient automatically makes the mental compensation that a blurry letter with horizontal stripes is probably an E or an F, where a less 'intelligent' person just says "No, I can't read it". And the diligent, intelligent student can do more magic with an average amount of 'talent' than a lazy and stupid student can do with an above average amount of 'talent'.) I think both Hermione and Ron have well above average 'talent'. Harry has the most 'talent' (that's a given) but another advantage he would have over Hermione in a duel (at least after GoF) is a lot of PRACTISE at using his magic in life-threatening situations. Pippin wrote: > What's odd is that Hermione insists that jinxes > need eye-contact, but other similar spells, such > as accio and stupefy, don't. :cheers Pippin's insight on Burnham Wood coming to Dunsinane. Maybe it is only JINXES and not Hexes, Curses, or Charms which require eye-contact. Maybe there is a huge technical difference in the way a Jinx is wound up and thrown from other spells. > No doubt it all makes sense to wizards, but is > incomprehensible to the Muggle mind. LOL Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > (But how is it that Elvera can touch things and > reek Peeves-like havoc, but no one can touch *her*??) By "making a direct contact with the" telekinetic "centers of someone's brain". Alfredo Ramirez wrote: > Binns is boring, but that doesnt make him > incompetent. Perhaps he simply knows more > history than any other teacher you may find May I nitpick? Even if Binns is the most competent historian ever, he isn't a competent TEACHER if none of his students except Hermione ever learn anything. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L egendary A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From mediaphen at hotmail.com Tue Aug 21 06:20:30 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:20:30 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: <9lq777+o7ng@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lsuje+n0rl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24592 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > *&%#@!! OK, I retract my retraction, until further notice .... still > believe Mrs. Figg could not be a Squib or she'd be worthless in > helping keep Harry safe when he wasn't at the Dursleys'. > Hi, everybody! I've been following the Mrs Figg thread, and apperently some doubts have come up whether she can be part of the old crowd and a good protection for Harry if she is a Squib. But I say, can't squibs be useful, too? In a team of evil-forces- fighters you need all types of people (brains, physical strength, leadership, logic and so forth in addition to magic). Muggles can be very useful in this battle with their special knowledge, but might not fully understand the wizarding world. Squibs, however, can obtain "Muggle specialities" and adapt them to the wizarding reality (a concept squibs most probably comprehend). Much as a physically challenged person can develop great abilities due to will power, a squib can compensate for hiser lack of magic powers by setting hiser mind to becoming the best agent/scientist/doctor/athlete/astronaut/what-have-you ever. IMO (if indeed Mrs Figg *is* a Squib *and* part of the old crowd/Harry's protection), this could be a plausible explanation to the Arabella Figg mystery. Martin (happy that the Swedish premi?re is set one week earlier than first announced) "People used to think *I* was stupid, but I proved them!" -Fry, Futurama From golden_faile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 06:20:58 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not the first LOTR movie In-Reply-To: <9lqdkg+cb9s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010821062058.76878.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24593 --- I remember going to see the animated version when I was a little girl... On to other things, I always pictured Elijah Woods when I pictured Harry( I compared him and Malfoy to him and McCauley Caulkin in THE GOOD SON )Now I see that he is one of the Hobbits in the movie(Bilbo Baggins I presume). I saw the trailer the other night. I was thinking how cool it is that I get to see HP in Nov., then see LOTR in Dec.. Laila __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From yenreuga at yahoo.com.au Tue Aug 21 08:11:35 2001 From: yenreuga at yahoo.com.au (yenreuga at yahoo.com.au) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 08:11:35 -0000 Subject: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle (newbie) In-Reply-To: <9lrn0g+supp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lt53n+j42c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24594 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > > > Just to stir your thinking up a little, consider this...I am > > wondering if the wineglass incident might not have been the work of > > another person instead of Harry. After all, Petunia's family was > > getting trashed pretty thoroughly by someone who she doesn't really > > like all that much. Was that Petunia's version of the vanishing > glass syndrome?> > Petunia says her parents were proud to have a witch in the family. If Petunia is a witch, she would have received a letter from Hogwarts when she was 11, right? Why wouldn't she have gone to Hogwarts? Wouldn't her parents have been just as proud of her as they were of Lily, when they found out she was a witch? yenreuga (newbie) From yenreuga at yahoo.com.au Tue Aug 21 08:24:00 2001 From: yenreuga at yahoo.com.au (yenreuga at yahoo.com.au) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 08:24:00 -0000 Subject: Not the first LOTR movie In-Reply-To: <20010821062058.76878.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lt5r0+sf5d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24595 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., golden faile wrote: > > --- I remember going to see the animated version when > I was a little girl... > > On to other things, I always pictured Elijah Woods > when I pictured Harry( I compared him and Malfoy to > him and McCauley Caulkin in THE GOOD SON )Now I see > that he is one of the Hobbits in the movie(Bilbo > Baggins I presume). I saw the trailer the other night. > I was thinking how cool it is that I get to see HP in > Nov., then see LOTR in Dec.. > > Laila > Elijah Wood is actually playing Frodo! Elijah Wood might have played Harry if it was 10 years earlier! yenreuga From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Aug 21 09:13:53 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:13:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010821091353.56149.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24596 --- Zarleycat at aol.com ha scritto: Questions: <1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From litalex at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 09:52:09 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mandarin mutterings In-Reply-To: <004901c1297a$b98785a0$801d6fcb@price> Message-ID: <20010821095209.5241.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24597 Hello, --- Tabouli wrote: > of HP, but I *did* manage to crowbar an article on > translating HP into Chinese into a cross-cultural > training program I ran at a College of the Arts. It Is there any way I can acquire a copy? little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From oppen at cnsinternet.com Tue Aug 21 10:08:07 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 05:08:07 -0500 Subject: Petunia the Witch? Message-ID: <01ab01c12a29$2d6f9e40$cbc71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 24598 Whimpering house-elf-style apologies if this has been brought up, but... IF Petunia's a witch, one good reason she might be very resentful against the whole magical world might have been if she had been expelled from Hogwarts---particularly if it was as unjust as Hagrid's case. Would she have been around when Tom Riddle (boo, hiss!) was a prefect and Head Boy? If so, what if she had found herself kicked out of Hogwarts, her wand broken, and banished from the magical world...and all for a crime of which she was actually innocent? I was utterly _shocked_ that they had sent Sirius Black to Azkaban _without a trial_...hey, I'm a lawyer's son, I _BELIEVE IN UTTERLY FAIR TRIALS_ as well as harsh punishment for offenders! Under Professor Dumbledore's predecessor, apparently it was perfectly possible for an innocent to be flung out of Hogwarts and (to all extents and purposes) the magical world, as Hagrid was, so why not Petunia Evans? I doubt that Tom Riddle would have any scruples about framing her if she Knew Too Much. I know we all tend to HATE Petunia Dursley...the gods know I do! If I knew of anybody in my limited circle of acquaintances who was treating a child the way she was treating Harry, there'd be a BIG crate of whoopass being opened, with that person's name on it. At the same time, if she has a _reason_ to hate the wizard world, as in "They threw me out without even a hearing, and I was INNOCENT!" her attitude could easily have congealed into real hatred over the years, and she might well see Harry as a symbol of all she was forced to leave behind. Imagine if she were as talented and enthusiastic as Hermione, and then treated this way! Who could blame her for hating her heart out? --Technomad From Allyse at my-deja.com Tue Aug 21 10:13:59 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:13:59 -0000 Subject: Chap. 10 Summary: The Rogue Bludger In-Reply-To: <9lqour+eodv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ltc98+5esp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24599 The summaries are always enjoyable! Thanks for this one, Marianne. I would like to take the opportunity presented by the title of this chapter to ask the group a question: Was anyone else appalled to discover in QTTA that the Bludgers are actually made of iron? I'd been assuming they were made of wood, or maybe even rubber. Think of how much damage even a baseball, which is essentially small ball of wound string, can do if it hits a batter in the arm or face. Quidditch boasts of speeds of a hundred miles an hour or more - and a heavy iron ball! Forget Harry's arm or Krum's nose - what about their lives? It's a wonder the death toll doesn't reach horrific proportions. What is it with wizards and dangerous sports, anyway? Can't they enjoy the thrill of the chase without the added spice of risking broken necks? :) Allyse From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Tue Aug 21 11:31:57 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:31:57 -0000 Subject: The Color Green In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ltgrd+qp23@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24600 But if Green does have a peculiarly intense magical quality then Slytherin which is associated with green will presumably have a magical head start ?? Edis "Amber ?" wrote: > About From: > >I was curious enough about the significance of colors in Harry Potter catalogue all the uses of green I could find. > > > I must say that after reading the books, I wondered if the color of magic is green. From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk Tue Aug 21 12:45:14 2001 From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:45:14 -0000 Subject: Petunia the Witch? In-Reply-To: <01ab01c12a29$2d6f9e40$cbc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9ltl4q+cg9o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24601 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > Would she have been around when Tom Riddle (boo, hiss!) was a prefect and > Head Boy? No, that was over 50 years ago, she's too young. I personally like the idea of Petunia having suppressed abilities, but I doubt she actually went to Hogwarts. Keith "How Freudian" Fraser From nausicaa at atlantic.net Tue Aug 21 13:58:57 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jenny K.) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spells: hard not to think like a Muggle (newbie) In-Reply-To: <9lt53n+j42c@eGroups.com> References: <9lt53n+j42c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <998402337.3b8269216960d@webmail.atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24602 Quoting yenreuga at yahoo.com.au: > Petunia says her parents were proud to have a > witch in the family. > If Petunia is a witch, she would have received a > letter from Hogwarts > when she was 11, right? Why wouldn't she have > gone to Hogwarts? > Wouldn't her parents have been just as proud of > her as they were of > Lily, when they found out she was a witch? > > yenreuga (newbie) Well, perhaps she's nearly muggle, but with only the slightest bit of magical ability...not enough to get her into Hogwarts, but enough to make her jealous. As a matter of fact, this would probably make her *more* jealous than if she had no magical abilities whatsoever. Think about it -- sibling able to do something that you can do, but he/she can do it MUCH better. I don't think she was kicked out of Hogwarts, if only because she's very against magic. I don't know why, but it seems that she'd be less inclined to blame Harry for magical blunders if she knew she had some magic in her. Jenny K. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent through Atlantic.Net Webmail. broadband * web solutions * e-commerce * dial-up Visit www.atlantic.net to learn more. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 21 14:01:28 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:01:28 -0000 Subject: Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? Message-ID: <9ltpjo+jrcd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24603 When Black hunts down Pettigrew in the street, Pettigrew blasts himself and a street full of muggles. In PA, we are twice told that Black stood there laughing when this happened, and was still laughing when he was arrested. (Stan on Knight Bus and conversation in Hogsmeade). Why would Black be laughing? Thirteen innocent bystanders are dead, he has learned that his old friend was a Dark Wizard spy who betrayed Lily and James, and he recently learned James and Lilly are dead. He must know at this point that he'll be blamed for the betrayal (he won't be needing the motorcycle anymore). What's so funny about that? I haven't heard this discussed before, and I can't figure it out. Any help out there? From vheggie at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 14:09:51 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:09:51 -0000 Subject: Why doesn't Harry tell Dumbledore? (was chapter nine summary) Message-ID: <9ltq3f+o619@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24604 Is it possible that the fact that Harry admires and respects Dumbledore more than anyone else would make him less likely (as a child) to tell him certain things? We can see elsewhere in the books (I haven't got them to hand - sorry) how terrible it is to him when he fears he might dissapoint Dumbledore (or other people he admires - Sirius, or Lupin for example). The last person he would want to think him mad, or bad, is the man he looks up to the most - it's hardly suprising that he keeps quiet soemthing he is so uncertain about, and frightened of, himself. From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Aug 21 14:32:29 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:32:29 +1000 Subject: The Big V, Percy, ghosts, article, teaching vs knowledge Message-ID: <006201c12a53$0656f9a0$db92aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 24605 katzefan: > Allyse: could've been worse - remember what Disney did to Mary Poppins? Try to envision a *singing* Voldemort. I am, and very amusing it is too. If I knew any of the twee songs in Mary Poppins well enough, I'd attempt a filk (Just a tune full of magic makes Lord Voldemort go down, tralala...) Speaking of Voldemort, I can never quite cope with him being called "Voldie" in fandom... the sound doesn't roll off my tongue, for one thing, and for another, my sense of irony, well-developed in other areas, finds a cute pet name being applied to the Snake-Man Lord of Darkness a bit of a stretch (but those of you who like it, don't mind me!). OTOH, I rather like him being called "The Big V": much more my style. >You're forgetting something. That spell is *famous* in magical >history...what else could have moved Birnam wood to >Dunsinane hill? Errr... could someone enlighten me on this famous event?? Off list or OT is fine, but I'm getting curious here. > I think if *any* member of (Percy's) family were in serious trouble, he would find his priorities being re-ordered fairly fast ... Remember that Percy looked suddenly young and frightened and rushed to Ron when Harry rescued him from the lake. His heart seems to be in the right place, just well locked away in a vault of ambition and arrogance. Robyn: > Maybe we can fix (Lockhart) up with a nice mirror................... Now what would Lockhart see in the Mirror of Erised? Himself being awarded an Order of Merlin first class and Witch Weekly's Most Charming Smile of the Century? Better still, what would his Boggart turn into?? Ali: > Also, it'd be very difficult for Professor Binns to teach if he was completely without substance. How could he pass out an exam, for example, if he was unable to pick up the papers? How could he grade them, without the use of a quill?< Once a wizard has died and become a ghost, can s/he still do magic, aside from the usual ghost stuff (passing through solid objects, etc.)? Nick had a ghost letter: are there ghost wands? Regarding the article on HP in China I mentioned, I don't know if this link still works (it was dated 21st September 2000), but this is where I found it. If this doesn't work, I can send the article to the list if the moderators don't mind, or to interested parties off list if they do. Hey, I can even send *really* interested parties a copy with my annotations included! http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/09/21/china.peddling.potter.ap/ Rita: > May I nitpick? Even if Binns is the most competent historian ever, he isn't a competent TEACHER if none of his students except Hermione ever learn anything< Hear hear. It's amazing how people assume that having lots of knowledge means someone will necessarily be good at passing that knowledge on to others. Universities are particularly susceptible to this problem. "Hey, he's great at writing articles and doing research locked away like a hermit in his ivory tower all day, therefore he's bound to be great at lecturing to 500 first year students about it! Let's get him to turn a whole generation off his pet subject..." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From john at walton.to Tue Aug 21 15:15:10 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:15:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Big V, Percy, ghosts, article, teaching vs knowledge In-Reply-To: <006201c12a53$0656f9a0$db92aecb@price> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24606 Tabouli said: >> You're forgetting something. That spell is *famous* in magical >> history...what else could have moved Birnam wood to >> Dunsinane hill? > > Errr... could someone enlighten me on this famous event?? Off list or OT is > fine, but I'm getting curious here. A reference to Shakespeare's Macbeth. One of the signs that Macbeth's reign -- and life -- was coming to an end was that Birnam Wood would move to Dunsinane Hill (some distance). In fact, Macbeth's enemies cut down the trees to camouflage themselves, carrying them from Birnam to Dunsinane, so it looked like the wood was 'coming' to Dunsinane. Yeah, it's flaky. That's Shakespeare for you :D --John __s_c_h_n_o_o_g_l_e_._c_o_m___________ John Walton -- Crazy Ivan ivan at schnoogle.com =| Schnoogle.com, part of the FictionAlley.org community |= * high-quality novel-length fanfiction from some of your favorite authors * run *by* Harry Potter fans *for* Harry Potter fans * talk to your favorite authors using Schnoogle.com messageboards ____________s_c_h_n_o_o_g_l_e_._c_o_m_ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 21 15:38:26 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:38:26 -0000 Subject: Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? Message-ID: <9ltv9i+328g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24607 I loved just about everything about the series, but I must admit that I had to roll my eyes just a bit at a few of the plot devices. I'm not talking about inconsistencies, errors or unanswered questions. I'm talking about whole concepts that just don't do it for me. For me, most (but not all) of these are in book 2. Examples are: The diction of house elves grates on my ears, particularly Winky (PA, GoF). The deathday party. (CoS) Moaning Myrtle and Gilderoy Lockhart. (CoS) The Quiddich World Cup (It's a tall order to make us care about Ireland vs. Bulgaria). (GoF) The flying car sequence. (CoS) The "Here Comes The Calvary" rescue of the flying car in the forbidden forest. (CoS) Anyone have other eye-rollers? From john at walton.to Tue Aug 21 15:55:49 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:55:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? In-Reply-To: <9ltv9i+328g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24608 cynthiaanncoe at home.com said: > The diction of house elves grates on my ears, particularly Winky (PA, > GoF). But house elves is supposed to be talking funny! Otherwise they is not being house elves! And they is sounding a lot less dangerous this way. I is thinking that house elves is going to be playing a bigger part in the next books, I is. > The deathday party. (CoS) Nope, didn't make me roll my eyes. > Moaning Myrtle and Gilderoy Lockhart. (CoS) Lockhart didn't make me roll my eyes. As someone said recently, the really evil thing about Lockhart is that he is willing to let a child (Ginny) die to save his own skin. > The Quiddich World Cup (It's a tall order to make us care about > Ireland vs. Bulgaria). (GoF) Not if you're Irish or Bulgarian. I loved the QWC, and I'm neither. > The flying car sequence. (CoS) I really enjoyed that. Of course, the actual act of taking the car did make me roll my eyes at Harry and Ron's stupidity -- why not just wait for Molly and Arthur and get them to drive to Hogwarts? Or Floo Powder it? Of course, that wouldn't allow for... > The "Here Comes The Calvary" rescue of the flying car in the > forbidden forest. (CoS) I liked that bit. All of these things rely on that good old literary tool, suspension of disbelief. JKR, like George Lucas, creates a universe and sticks to its rules. We just have to stop thinking like Muggles for long enough to be able to enjoy it :) --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to There is no such thing as a moral book or an immoral book. Books are well written or badly written. That is all. --Oscar Wilde ________________________________ From joym999 at aol.com Tue Aug 21 16:41:59 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:41:59 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #12 -- Last Chance Message-ID: <9lu30n+ati2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24609 Contest #12 is still running, but only for another day or two. In this contest, you were asked to speculate about the Mirror of Erised. What would any of the HP characters other than Ron or Harry see in the Mirror of Erised? Would Dumbledore really see socks? What would Hermione, Dobby, Neville, etc. see? You may also speculate about any of your fellow list-members, or JKR. Please email entries to me at the above address or to HP4GUCon at aol.com by Wednesday night. Please do NOT post entries to the list, and feel free to email me with any questions. --Joywitch From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 16:43:20 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010821164320.11544.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24610 --- princesskatie115 - wrote: >**I think that it would be great for >Dumbledore to have the ability to do >wandless magic...but I don't think >that there is any solid proof thus far >that he can. Just because the books >don't mention that he used his wand >doesn't mean that he didn't. Here's the exact passage: "Which means," Dumbledore called over the storm of applause [snip] "we need a little change of decoration." He clapped his hands. In an instant, the green hangings became scarlet.... How do you hold a wand & clap at the same time? Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 17:04:20 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: <20010821164320.11544.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010821170420.90974.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24611 I wrote: >How do you hold a wand & clap at the >same time? Sorry, I didn't mean for this to sound snotty but I guess it could. Please take no offense! None was intended. Apologies. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mindyatime at juno.com Tue Aug 21 17:04:39 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:04:39 -0400 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens Message-ID: <20010821.130447.-330527.0.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24612 Rita wrote: "Guesses as to which room include:....the prefects' bathroom (and that its magic is that boys and girls can bathe at the same time without seeing each other)" One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP books is that it is devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero sexual innuendo or encounters. It makes it appropriate for children to read as well. (GoF did have some things I found objectionable, but then again I am a real prude and don't read mainstream literature due to offensive content; HP is one of the books that I find acceptable to read.) I would hate to see JK reduced to a romance-novel-writer and put stuff like that into her books. Whenever I read the fanfics of HP and find lurid romances and slash romances I bristle, for this was not JK's intent - to turn her lovely characters into little sleazebags. I love the innocence of her books, reading about adolescents and preteens who are NOT involved in steamy relationships. I really hope she keeps up this standard, so that her books will remain suitable for young children to read as well. Let her concentrate on the one thing that sets her books apart from others: the MAGIC of it. I hope I did not offend anyone and I hope I did not open some flaming Pandora's Box. Please forgive me if I did. But these are my thoughts after all, and I am free to speak them. From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 17:15:44 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:15:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's Ego (was: Chap. 9 Summary) In-Reply-To: <20010821091353.56149.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lu500+f28g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24613 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne Schmid wrote: > --- Zarleycat at a... ha scritto: > <3. We know Harry is not very trusting of adults. Even > > First, I wouldn't include Dumbledore into the long > list of adults Harry doen't trust. But as Ron said: > Hearing voiced that nobody else can hear, isn't a good > sign, not even in the wizarding world. He is too > insecure about his own perception, maybe he thinks the > voice exists only inside his head and he's going mad. This is true; I think he is worried about what bad news Dumbledore might give him concerning hearing this voice. He does not yet know he is a Parselmouth, or why he's one. JKR likes doing this; in the next book (PoA) Harry sees the large black dog and is alarmed to discover that this is usually called a Grim, and it's a Death Omen. He definitely would have been happier not knowing that, especially since the thought keeps him up nights and it turns out to be nothing but his godfather keeping an eye on him... While Harry does trust Dumbledore, he also has a healthy ego. He is proud, to a certain extent, and does not wish to look like a fool, or a coward. He should have told Dumbledore about his scar hurting at the beginning of GoF, for instance, be he does not. His sometimes not confiding in Dumbledore is not because of any mistrust he has of the headmaster; it's simple pride and wishing to still command the older man's respect. Perhaps it's this bit of ego which was causing the Sorting Hat to consider him for Slytherin...Slytherins certainly seem to have healthy egos. (I mean that in a good way.) --Barb From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 17:31:27 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:31:27 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010821.130447.-330527.0.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lu5tf+67dr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24614 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP books is that it is > devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero sexual innuendo or > encounters. It makes it appropriate for children to read as well. [snip] > I hope I did not offend anyone and I hope I did not open some flaming > Pandora's Box. Please forgive me if I did. But these are my thoughts > after all, and I am free to speak them. I for one would never flame someone for having this opinion (that might surprise some folks who read my fanfic). I also read the books to my almost-seven-year-old daughter and almost-nine-year-old son (and they read them on their own as well). What I find myself doing when reading aloud is turning "damn" into "darn" and "hell" into "heck" inasmuch as I have already instituted a ban on THEM saying these things. (I don't know whether I'll be able to maintain that ban when they're older--or whether I'll care. I DO care whether someone thinks I'm a terrible mother because I have a nine-year-old who says "damn," which thank goodness, I don't.) Oddly enough, I also find myself having to change or leave out the word "bitch" when it is referring to a female dog when I've read books such as "Lassie Come Home" and "Babe, the Gallant Pig" to my daughter. That's just not how the word is used most of the time in the US, although it is a correct usuage. I have a squick about my daughter hearing me say this word as I'm reading her to sleep at night... I do suspect that there might be more moments like the "Unexpected Task" of GoF, but I trust that JKR will handle them tastefully. It is possible that latter books will be more appropriate for ages 12 and up, but until we get OotP into our hot little hands, it's really all just speculation. --Barb From john at walton.to Tue Aug 21 17:59:38 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:59:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010821.130447.-330527.0.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24615 Mindy, a.k.a. CLH said: > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP books is that it is > devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero sexual innuendo or > encounters. It makes it appropriate for children to read as well. (GoF > did have some things I found objectionable, but then again I am a real > prude and don't read mainstream literature due to offensive content; HP > is one of the books that I find acceptable to read.) I would hate to see > JK reduced to a romance-novel-writer and put stuff like that into her > books. Whenever I read the fanfics of HP and find lurid romances and > slash romances I bristle, for this was not JK's intent - to turn her > lovely characters into little sleazebags. I love the innocence of her > books, reading about adolescents and preteens who are NOT involved in > steamy relationships. I really hope she keeps up this standard, so that > her books will remain suitable for young children to read as well. Let > her concentrate on the one thing that sets her books apart from others: > the MAGIC of it. Er, Mindy, the characters at the moment are FOURTEEN. They are most unlikely to be having ANY sort of romantic relationship at that time, having only just got over the "yuck, girls"/"yuck, boys" stage. The majority of fanfic involving romance takes place when the characters are at least 16 (the legal age of consent in the UK). Sure, some fanfic (PWP or "Plot? What Plot?") does turn the HP characters into sex-crazed balls of hormones. However, if you don't like it, don't read any fanfic which has more than a G rating. Characters *will* and *do* grow up (unless they're the Hardy Boys, who are locked in a Peter Pan-esque NeverNeverLand of youth. JKR has publicly stated in interviews/chats that she doesn't intend to continue the series beyond the seventh book, when the characters will be eighteen. So, fanficcers have taken up the gauntlet and are writing *realistically* -- the characters will have romantic interests and (gasp!) sex lives at that point. IMO, Mindy, saying that the HP characters are innocent is rather a naive attitude to take. I don't agree that the characters in HP are innocent at ALL -- take Malfoy's bigoted, racist attitudes towards Mudbloods; the Weasley's attitudes towards the nearly-enslaved House Elves; the entire community's treatment of Squibs; the complete lack of any sort of justice system. Of course, some people will complain about the magic aspect of the books that you say (and I agree) that JKR should write more about. "Luring our children to Satanism", they shriek, never mind that (a) HP magic is not the magic of Wicca or witchcraft, (b) Wicca or witchcraft or Paganism is not Satanism, particularly since the vast majority of Wiccans/Witches/Pagans don't worship Satan, (c) Nobody is "luring" children anywhere. > I hope I did not offend anyone and I hope I did not open some flaming > Pandora's Box. Please forgive me if I did. But these are my thoughts > after all, and I am free to speak them. I don't think you have offended anyone, and nobody is going to be flaming anyone on this list. ::menacing look:: However, I do find it bemusing when people say things like "I am free to speak my thoughts" or "I have a right to free speech". That's true, up to a point when your thoughts (which you're broadcasting to thousands of people) become abusive, harassing, inflammatory, etc. In fact, your free speech is constrained quite severely by the Yahoo Terms of Service which you signed up to in order to be able to subscribe to this list. Not that your posts are any of those things, Mindy, it's just something that's been niggling me recently. --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to "One, two! One, two! And through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back." --Lewis Carroll, "The Jabberwocky" ________________________________ From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 18:19:21 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:19:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: <20010821164320.11544.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24616 >**I think that it would be great for >Dumbledore to have the ability to do >wandless magic...but I don't think >that there is any solid proof thus far >that he can. Just because the books >don't mention that he used his wand >doesn't mean that he didn't. Here's the exact passage: "Which means," Dumbledore called over the storm of applause [snip] "we need a little change of decoration." He clapped his hands. In an instant, the green hangings became scarlet.... How do you hold a wand & clap at the same time? Actually, I don?t think Dumbledore is actually doing magic here. I get the feeling, that much like the food that appears and disappears on plates, this is actually done by house-elves simply obeying their master?s orders. After all, decorations and cleaning do seem to fall under the jurisdiction of our poor mistreated house-elves. :-) JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 21 18:42:47 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 18:42:47 -0000 Subject: Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lua37+mnu3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24617 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > cynthiaanncoe at h... said: > > > The diction of house elves grates on my ears, particularly Winky (PA, > > GoF). > > But house elves is supposed to be talking funny! Otherwise they is not being > house elves! And they is sounding a lot less dangerous this way. I is > thinking that house elves is going to be playing a bigger part in the next > books, I is. As for the house elves' dialect, dialects are fine, and Hagrid has a well-written dialect that really humanizes him. Doesn't get in the way at all. But the house elves? Kind of like reading dialogue with speed bumps in it. > > > The deathday party. (CoS) > > Nope, didn't make me roll my eyes. > > > Moaning Myrtle and Gilderoy Lockhart. (CoS) > > Lockhart didn't make me roll my eyes. As someone said recently, the really > evil thing about Lockhart is that he is willing to let a child (Ginny) die > to save his own skin. > OK, fair enough. But the contrast between the evil Lockhart and other evil characters (Draco, Lucius, Voldemort, Pettigrew, Snape) is that the scenes with the latter characters are really exciting and I looked forward to them all. I didn't look forward to Lockhart and found him kind of annoying. Which suggests to me that perhaps he's just not written quite as well. > > The Quiddich World Cup (It's a tall order to make us care about > > Ireland vs. Bulgaria). (GoF) > > Not if you're Irish or Bulgarian. I loved the QWC, and I'm neither. > > > The flying car sequence. (CoS) > > I really enjoyed that. Of course, the actual act of taking the car did make > me roll my eyes at Harry and Ron's stupidity -- why not just wait for Molly > and Arthur and get them to drive to Hogwarts? Or Floo Powder it? Of course, > that wouldn't allow for... > > > The "Here Comes The Calvary" rescue of the flying car in the > > forbidden forest. (CoS) > > I liked that bit. > > All of these things rely on that good old literary tool, suspension of > disbelief. JKR, like George Lucas, creates a universe and sticks to its > rules. We just have to stop thinking like Muggles for long enough to be able > to enjoy it :) > > --John > > ________________________________ > > John Walton -- john at w... > > There is no such thing as a moral book or an immoral book. Books are well > written or badly written. That is all. > --Oscar Wilde > ________________________________ Anyway, these are just my personal thoughts. I'd say that about 98% of the characters and scenes worked great, and that's quite an accomplishment. And by the way, did every single thing in the books work for you, or did you have your own eye-rollers? From heraldtalia at juno.com Tue Aug 21 18:37:37 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:37:37 -0400 Subject: Chapter 9 Summary, eye-rollers, Gilding of Gilderoy, Magical Petunia, Hermione vs. Harry Message-ID: <20010821.143747.-255755.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24618 Zarleycat asked >7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the last >1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is a >particular need to do so? Maybe no other Heir to Slytherin could figure out how to open the Chamber? ` Tom Riddle was one of the most clever students Hogwarts ever had. Mr. Ollivander speaks about "He Who Must Not Be Named did great things - terrible, yes, but great" and Dumbledore says he was exceptionally clever. Maybe Parsletongue is a recessive gene? We discussed this a bit in reference to the genetic profile of Squibs. Maybe not all Slytherin's heirs either had Parsletongue, or even if they had it, maybe they did not know how to use it. cynthiaanncoe wrote >I'm talking about whole concepts that just don't do it for me. For >me, most (but not all) of these are in book 2. >The "Here Comes The Calvary" rescue of the flying car in the >forbidden forest. (CoS) I loved all the books. Part of JKR's magic is her ability to use obvious plot devices and then give them a unique twist that is all her own. I did not like the car coming to the rescue, though. It was too pat, and it made me think of the old Herbie movies. I'm also not thrilled with the Marauder's map. Actually, in general, CoS was my least favorite book of the whole series. I have a rank order list of the rest, and CoS is #4 to me. This is for 2 reasons: A lot of the plot devices in the story are a little more contrived and kind of clunkier than PS/SS. In general, PS/SS was a smoother, more seamless read. I was totally absorbed in it and didn't once stop to analyze the author (a first for me.) I was also in labor at the time, and the nurse said she's going to hire JKR as an anesthesiologist. CoS had me critiquing, the story was less absorbing. Maybe that's because by the time it was out, I was well into the habit of critiquing HP. Maybe it really is a less absorbing read. 2) The premise is terrifying for a confirmed bibliophile like me. A book that takes your mind over? Do you know how many times that's happened to me? A new book will come out, and I KNOW I've got a paper due the next day, yet 2 A.M. finds me still reading for pleasure. I just know the Fates will decree that HP #7 will come out the day before I defend my dissertation, or the night before my Comps - HELP! More to the point though (since I love being terrified) was my ethical dilemma in reading CoS to my students. I teach a small, gifted group of students and some of them are pretty young. I didn't want to terrify them, and I thought the scene with the basilisk, diary, and Tom Riddle pretty scary) Most of these kids are intellectuals in small bodies - they would think beyond the adrenaline rush of scariness to the implications ... snakes moving in pipes, books that take you over, souls leached from your body. For me, that's all old hat. But I thought that for my students, it was a bit young to be introduced to these kinds of concepts. I still taught it, though. They were anticipating CoS way too much to disappoint them. That having been said, I have absolutely no problem with any of the other "eye rollers" you mentioned. I particularly LOVED Ireland vs. Bulgaria. Tabouli wrote >Now what would Lockhart see in the Mirror of Erised? Himself being awarded an >Order of Merlin first class and Witch Weekly's Most Charming Smile of the Century? >Better still, what would his Boggart turn into?? He'd probably see himself, looking into the mirror, since that seems to be his heart's desire - perpetual narcissism. His Boggart - A pimple? broken curlers? Maybe, like Neville's, it would just be Snape? Keith wrote About Petunia's repressed magic- >No, that was over 50 years ago, she's too young. I personally like >the idea of Petunia having suppressed abilities, but I doubt she >actually went to Hogwarts. I know we all hate Dudley, and he's the world's worst brat, but maybe he's got a scrap of magic?He does have Petunia's , and possibly Lily's genes. I just don't know what his motivation would be to have Petunia's glass shatter, other than to torment Harry. On second thought, I'm taking this back. A magical Dudley would be awful, we already HAVE Crabbe and Goyle. On the other hand, if we're being "too Freudian" Dudley would have the strongest need to repress his magic, in view of his mother's pathological hatred of it. Rita wrote about Harry and Hermione's supposed duel >Backed up, > of course, by JKR, who said that post 3rd year, > Harry would beat her in a duel. >But we're considering more than two (as counted by MY culture) factors >here. Hermione is a diligent student and she ALSO has IMHO very high >academic intelligence, but does she have very high, high, or merely >average magical power/talent? The raw innate ability to do magic (once >trained) is a third factor, like having exceptionally good eyesight. >(Relevant digression on intelligence and eyesight: Lee's old >optometrist, who has retired , when giving the eye chart test, >would adjust the score of correct answers according to the patient's >'intelligence', because the 'intelligent' patient automatically makes >the mental compensation that a blurry letter with horizontal stripes is >probably an E or an F, where a less 'intelligent' person just says "No, >I can't read it". And the diligent, intelligent student can do more >magic with an average amount of 'talent' than a lazy and stupid student >can do with an above average amount of 'talent'.) >I think both Hermione and Ron have well above average 'talent'. Harry >has the most 'talent' (that's a given) but another advantage he would >have over Hermione in a duel (at least after GoF) is a lot of PRACTISE >at using his magic in life-threatening situations. I think Harry's advantage over Hermione is his quick thinking and daring. Hermione, when faced with a spell or situation totally out of the realm of memorized answers might freeze. Harry's been trained, like Rita said, he'd react, not act, and his instincts are quick - that's what makes him a good Seeker. I also think Harry would be a little more ruthless than Hermione, to his advantage. In a duel, he'd give it his all. Hermione, who is more intelligent IMO, would waste that split second thinking about consequences. We saw in a lot of duel sequences, the first to cast Expelliarmus usually wins the day. That probably holds true for most duel spells - quick reflexes are the most important. (relevant digression here as to the nature of intelligence. When intelligence testing first came out, one of the things they used to test was reaction time, in the theory that the more "intelligence" you have, the more tightly packed the structures of your brain are, so impulses can travel more quickly - it's like having a lot of highways in your mind, as opposed to country lanes. We don't do that anymore, not that what we DO is any better. For a great discussion of intelligence theory debates for the layman, read Daniel Seligman's "A Question of Intelligence" (it's a long work, but I'm putting it in quotes because underline doesn't e-mail well.) Robyn , who is really feeling stifled by the one post a day rule. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From arabellina01 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 18:46:35 2001 From: arabellina01 at yahoo.com (arabellina01 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 18:46:35 -0000 Subject: HoneyDukes Message-ID: <9luaab+nndd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24619 Dear unknown friend, This is my first mail to the group members but I now that we have something in common: the inspiration of Harry Potter fans. I would be very grateful if you suggest some etymology of the name of Honeydukes. What it can mean? Thanks you. Yours, Arabellina From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 18:51:24 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 18:51:24 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010821.130447.-330527.0.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9luajc+lhar@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24620 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > Rita wrote: > > "Guesses as to which room include:....the prefects' bathroom (and that > its magic is that boys and girls can bathe at the same time without > seeing each other)" > > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP books is that it is > devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero sexual innuendo or > encounters. I'm not quite so sure about this - remember Harry's encounter in the said bathroom with Moaning Myrtle? I am in the middle of writing a lengthy analysis of Myrtle, because she disturbs me so much - but this scene in particular made me feel very bad for her. Catherine From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 18:51:24 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 18:51:24 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9luajc+vba5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24621 *Pointing to John and saying "What he said!"* I think the only thing I want to point out, Mindy, is that these characters are no longer pre-teens, they are full-blown teenagers. Next time we see them (and let it be soon!) they will be fifteen! Hormones are surging, as they will usually do at that age. Harry will still be carrying a torch for Cho, and Myrtle will still be sneaking peaks in the prefect's bathroom. I personally think JKR is portraying teenage feelings in a way that is appropriate, witty, and fun. I doubt that we will be seeing anything lurid in the coming books, but we will be seeing our characters experiencing real human emotions of all kinds, which includes having crushes or romantic attachments or making really bad puns about "Uranus". I realize that some HP fanfiction (getting into OT territory here, excuse me...) is not to everyone's taste. That is why we have ratings. Some people don't like any of it at all, and I respect that. I personally love the slash fiction. Read what you like and leave the rest without judgement. There really is something for everyone! Cheers, Suzanne From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 19:01:07 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? In-Reply-To: <9ltpjo+jrcd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010821190107.27445.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24622 --- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: > Why would Black be laughing? > I haven't heard this discussed before, and I can't > figure it out. > Any help out there? > Hello there! This has been brought up recently in the postings. The general consensus among members was that Sirius was in shock. If you think about it, it makes sense. They were living in dark times to begin with. Lord Voldemort's reign of terror had everyone doubting everyone else. Then suddenly it appears that he has disappeared. James and Lily Potter who are two of Sirius's best friends are dead because another of their friends; bumbling, weak, and quiet little Peter Pettigrew has betrayed them. Worse still for Black is that it was his idea to use Peter as secret keeper. I think the only thing on his mind at that point (after he knew Harry was safe) was to go after Peter and make him pay either legally, or by killing him. He corners Peter, then the spineless little *rat* cuts off his own finger, loudly accuses Sirius of betraying the Potters, and blasts the street and the Muggle bystanders before changing into a rat. Sirius knows how perfect the frame-up is and that he is headed for Azkaban. I think, that if I were in his position I would be laughing my head off as well. There is just too much irony in the situation. It's not that *anything* is actually *funny*, just that the whole thing is so unexpected, that I believe Sirius is reacting the only way he can, by laughing. I believe also that it was a laugh completedy devoid of any mirth; very bitter. I hope this has been of help to you. :) ~Bethany __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From frantyck at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 19:22:13 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:22:13 -0000 Subject: Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lucd5+t4qh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24623 There is another instance of wandless magic in PoA that left me wondering briefly. When Harry and Fudge meet after his trip on the Knight Bus, Tom, the host at the Leaky Cauldron, ushers them into a parlour and lights the fire with a snap of his fingers. I like Alfredo Ramirez's solution: Actually, I don't think Dumbledore is actually doing magic here. I get the feeling, that much like the food that appears and disappears on plates, this is actually done by house-elves simply obeying their master's orders. After all, decorations and cleaning do seem to fall under the jurisdiction of our poor mistreated house-elves. :-) JB but I was guessing in the case of Tom that the fireplaces were charmed beforehand to light up when Tom snapped his fingers. Makes things easier, doesn't it? Or, does practice enable a wizard or witch to do simple and very familiar spells without the aid of a wand? But this is an old topic... Rrishi From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 21 19:27:21 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:27:21 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lucmp+incf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24624 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying > not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? I think Snape hates the cat, out of jealousy perhaps, but is hiding his feelings for Filch's sake... <> > > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? It could be that not every heir is a parselmouth. We also don't need to assume that Slytherin's descendants stayed in the British Isles. They might have been attending some other wizarding school. Perhaps Slytherin changed his name to avoid a curse (a bit of "real" magic) and was a founder of Durmstrang. The legend of the chamber might have been passed on to his descendants, but have been given no more credence by the heirs than it was by Prof. Binns. Dumbledore's statement that Tom is the last remaining intrigues me...maybe Grindelwald believed that the Slytherin heir would be his undoing (or was a Slytherin heir himself) and tried to exterminate the family, leaving only one daughter who escaped to England. There she lived as a Muggle, fell in love with Tom Riddle Sr. and suffered her disastrous fate. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 21 19:27:24 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:27:24 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lucms+ftd8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24625 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying > not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? I think Snape hates the cat, out of jealousy perhaps, but is hiding his feelings for Filch's sake... <> > > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? It could be that not every heir is a parselmouth. We also don't need to assume that Slytherin's descendants stayed in the British Isles. They might have been attending some other wizarding school. Perhaps Slytherin changed his name to avoid a curse (a bit of "real" magic) and was a founder of Durmstrang. The legend of the chamber might have been passed on to his descendants, but have been given no more credence by the heirs than it was by Prof. Binns. Dumbledore's statement that Tom is the last remaining intrigues me...maybe Grindelwald believed that the Slytherin heir would be his undoing (or was a Slytherin heir himself) and tried to exterminate the family, leaving only one daughter who escaped to England. There she lived as a Muggle, fell in love with Tom Riddle Sr. and suffered her disastrous fate. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 21 19:27:26 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:27:26 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lucmu+e9k0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24626 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying > not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? I think Snape hates the cat, out of jealousy perhaps, but is hiding his feelings for Filch's sake... <> > > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? It could be that not every heir is a parselmouth. We also don't need to assume that Slytherin's descendants stayed in the British Isles. They might have been attending some other wizarding school. Perhaps Slytherin changed his name to avoid a curse (a bit of "real" magic) and was a founder of Durmstrang. The legend of the chamber might have been passed on to his descendants, but have been given no more credence by the heirs than it was by Prof. Binns. Dumbledore's statement that Tom is the last remaining intrigues me...maybe Grindelwald believed that the Slytherin heir would be his undoing (or was a Slytherin heir himself) and tried to exterminate the family, leaving only one daughter who escaped to England. There she lived as a Muggle, fell in love with Tom Riddle Sr. and suffered her disastrous fate. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 21 19:27:22 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:27:22 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lucmq+55di@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24627 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying > not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? I think Snape hates the cat, out of jealousy perhaps, but is hiding his feelings for Filch's sake... <> > > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? It could be that not every heir is a parselmouth. We also don't need to assume that Slytherin's descendants stayed in the British Isles. They might have been attending some other wizarding school. Perhaps Slytherin changed his name to avoid a curse (a bit of "real" magic) and was a founder of Durmstrang. The legend of the chamber might have been passed on to his descendants, but have been given no more credence by the heirs than it was by Prof. Binns. Dumbledore's statement that Tom is the last remaining intrigues me...maybe Grindelwald believed that the Slytherin heir would be his undoing (or was a Slytherin heir himself) and tried to exterminate the family, leaving only one daughter who escaped to England. There she lived as a Muggle, fell in love with Tom Riddle Sr. and suffered her disastrous fate. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 21 19:27:36 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:27:36 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lucn8+aniv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24628 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying > not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? I think Snape hates the cat, out of jealousy perhaps, but is hiding his feelings for Filch's sake... <> > > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? It could be that not every heir is a parselmouth. We also don't need to assume that Slytherin's descendants stayed in the British Isles. They might have been attending some other wizarding school. Perhaps Slytherin changed his name to avoid a curse (a bit of "real" magic) and was a founder of Durmstrang. The legend of the chamber might have been passed on to his descendants, but have been given no more credence by the heirs than it was by Prof. Binns. Dumbledore's statement that Tom is the last remaining intrigues me...maybe Grindelwald believed that the Slytherin heir would be his undoing (or was a Slytherin heir himself) and tried to exterminate the family, leaving only one daughter who escaped to England. There she lived as a Muggle, fell in love with Tom Riddle Sr. and suffered her disastrous fate. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 21 19:27:27 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:27:27 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lucmv+ck70@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24629 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying > not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? I think Snape hates the cat, out of jealousy perhaps, but is hiding his feelings for Filch's sake... <> > > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? It could be that not every heir is a parselmouth. We also don't need to assume that Slytherin's descendants stayed in the British Isles. They might have been attending some other wizarding school. Perhaps Slytherin changed his name to avoid a curse (a bit of "real" magic) and was a founder of Durmstrang. The legend of the chamber might have been passed on to his descendants, but have been given no more credence by the heirs than it was by Prof. Binns. Dumbledore's statement that Tom is the last remaining intrigues me...maybe Grindelwald believed that the Slytherin heir would be his undoing (or was a Slytherin heir himself) and tried to exterminate the family, leaving only one daughter who escaped to England. There she lived as a Muggle, fell in love with Tom Riddle Sr. and suffered her disastrous fate. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 21 19:27:28 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:27:28 -0000 Subject: Chap. 9 Summary: The Writing on the Wall In-Reply-To: <9lqnlb+rn0m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lucn0+i4br@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24630 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > 1. What was Snape's "peculiar expression"? If he really was trying > not to smile, what about this situation did he find so amusing? I think Snape hates the cat, out of jealousy perhaps, but is hiding his feelings for Filch's sake... <> > > 7. Why wouldn't an heir to Slytherin have appeared sometime in the > last 1000 years? Or can the heir only open the Chamber when there is > a particular need to do so? It could be that not every heir is a parselmouth. We also don't need to assume that Slytherin's descendants stayed in the British Isles. They might have been attending some other wizarding school. Perhaps Slytherin changed his name to avoid a curse (a bit of "real" magic) and was a founder of Durmstrang. The legend of the chamber might have been passed on to his descendants, but have been given no more credence by the heirs than it was by Prof. Binns. Dumbledore's statement that Tom is the last remaining intrigues me...maybe Grindelwald believed that the Slytherin heir would be his undoing (or was a Slytherin heir himself) and tried to exterminate the family, leaving only one daughter who escaped to England. There she lived as a Muggle, fell in love with Tom Riddle Sr. and suffered her disastrous fate. Pippin From fourfuries at aol.com Tue Aug 21 19:43:59 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:43:59 -0000 Subject: Innocence, Naivite' and Judgement of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <9luajc+vba5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ludlv+ldk4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24631 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > *Pointing to John and saying "What he said!"* > > I personally think JKR is portraying teenage feelings in a way that >is appropriate, witty, and fun. I doubt that we will be seeing >anything lurid in the coming books, but we will be seeing our >characters experiencing real human emotions of all kinds, which >includes having crushes or romantic attachments or making really bad >puns about "Uranus". Is there something wrong with innocence, that we should be amazed when people prefer books that offer it over books more instructive in "carnal knowledge"? I for one support Mindy's view, that what makes these books great is JKR's ability to present real conflict and well drawn characterizations, without prematurely sacrificing the "innocense" of her young protagonists. There is nothing naive about considering Harry and company innocent. In Book One, Harry meets with nothing more damning than fear and pain. In Book Two, he deals with the near death of Ginny and Hermione, and the depraved malice of Tom Riddle. In Book Three he experiences first his own rage at and then the loss by separation from a loved one, Sirius Black. It is not until Book FOur, at its climax, that he comes to know what murder is. What endears us to Harry is that he takes each progressive stage of challenge in stride appropriate to his age. He doesn't display wisdom beyond his years, or Solomonic judgement, or Herculean strength. He is more like the original boy in Home Alone, in just slightly over his head, but working to keep that head above water ('scuse the twisting of the metaphors). If the next books are consistent, Harry will experience even more painful things, but only in measure to his ability to overcome that pain. If he deals with anything inappropriate to his stage of development AS A PERSON, I shall be sorely disappointed. And for those who want to argue about appropriate, remember, "it is our choices...". The implication being that some choices are better than others, and that we must exercise our native judgement if we are to recognize the better choices. 4FR Puzzled. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 21 20:29:01 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:29:01 -0000 Subject: Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: <9lucd5+t4qh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lugad+9qgl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24632 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote: > There is another instance of wandless magic in PoA that left me > wondering briefly. When Harry and Fudge meet after his trip on the > Knight Bus, Tom, the host at the Leaky Cauldron, ushers them into a > parlour and lights the fire with a snap of his fingers. > > I like Alfredo Ramirez's solution: > > Actually, I don't think Dumbledore is actually doing magic here. I > get the feeling, that much like the food that appears and disappears > on plates, this is actually done by house-elves simply obeying their > master's orders. After all, decorations and cleaning do seem to fall > under the jurisdiction of our poor mistreated house-elves. :-) > > JB > > > but I was guessing in the case of Tom that the fireplaces were > charmed beforehand to light up when Tom snapped his fingers. Makes > things easier, doesn't it? > > Or, does practice enable a wizard or witch to do simple and very > familiar spells without the aid of a wand? But this is an old topic... > > Rrishi Good thoughts. Wizards seem only to be able to do simple spells without a wand. In fact, Sirius makes this clear when he says he couldn't drive off the dementors without a wand. From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Aug 21 20:26:08 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:26:08 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010821.130447.-330527.0.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9lug50+h5d3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24633 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP books is that it is > devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero sexual innuendo or > encounters. It makes it appropriate for children to read as well. (GoF > did have some things I found objectionable, but then again I am a real > prude and don't read mainstream literature due to offensive content; HP > is one of the books that I find acceptable to read.) I would hate to see > JK reduced to a romance-novel-writer and put stuff like that into her > books. Whenever I read the fanfics of HP and find lurid romances and > slash romances I bristle, for this was not JK's intent - to turn her > lovely characters into little sleazebags. I love the innocence of her > books, reading about adolescents and preteens who are NOT involved in > steamy relationships. I really hope she keeps up this standard, so that > her books will remain suitable for young children to read as well. Let > her concentrate on the one thing that sets her books apart from others: > the MAGIC of it. The sheer genius of Rowling's work is that its appearance of innocence hides the complexity of the beast, so to speak. There are a number of "mature" issues that she addresses: grief, death, betrayal, self-esteem issues, etc. The relative sexual innocence of her characters IS refreshing in light of *real* world statistics of teen sexuality. The Potter books are a welcomed break for me. I see pregnant teens (as young as 12), teens with multiple sexually transmitted diseases, etc. come through the office everyday. The books are a nice fantasy world in which to retreat into after an afternoon of 15 year old girls with genital warts, 16 year old boys with gonorrhea, or a 14 year old mother of 18 month old twins. Or worse, drawing a blood specimen on a 16 year old for an HIV test and discussing the 'what ifs' with them. While I understand that characters will grow up as the series progresses, I see too much real world consequences of teen sex and have no desire to read about it in the Potter world. But these ARE Rowlings books and her characters. If she chooses to go down the romance novel path, then that's that. Period. Milz From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 21 20:32:34 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:32:34 -0000 Subject: Wands, wands and more wands Message-ID: <9lugh2+gv9g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24634 A couple of wand questions: First, where is Pettigrew's wand? I personally think it got blown up (or lost) when he blew up the street. That explains why Pettigrew is using Voldemort's wand all the time (except for the time he used Lupin's wand to stun Ron and Crookshanks). Second, wizards can do simple spells without wands. So, then, what is the single most complex spell any wizard or witch performs in the books without a wand? Any ideas? From kira at kc.rr.com Tue Aug 21 20:43:29 2001 From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:43:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands, wands and more wands References: <9lugh2+gv9g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <03f201c12a81$f34de240$a473f2d1@lisaannc> No: HPFGUIDX 24635 I would have to say the willing transformation to animal form and then back again. Sirius does not need a wand for that. They needed one to force Peter back to human form, but not to change their own forms. Lisa-Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 3:32 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands, wands and more wands A couple of wand questions: First, where is Pettigrew's wand? I personally think it got blown up (or lost) when he blew up the street. That explains why Pettigrew is using Voldemort's wand all the time (except for the time he used Lupin's wand to stun Ron and Crookshanks). Second, wizards can do simple spells without wands. So, then, what is the single most complex spell any wizard or witch performs in the books without a wand? Any ideas? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 20:46:13 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:46:13 -0000 Subject: Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? In-Reply-To: <9lua37+mnu3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9luhal+ghdg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24636 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > > cynthiaanncoe at h... said: > > > > > The diction of house elves grates on my ears, particularly Winky > (PA, > > > GoF). > > > > But house elves is supposed to be talking funny! Otherwise they is > not being > > house elves! And they is sounding a lot less dangerous this way. I > is > > thinking that house elves is going to be playing a bigger part in > the next > > books, I is. > > As for the house elves' dialect, dialects are fine, and Hagrid has a > well-written dialect that really humanizes him. Doesn't get in the > way at all. But the house elves? Kind of like reading dialogue with > speed bumps in it. > > I must be in the minority about House Elf dialect. I listened to Dale after reading it and I thought that it was just perfect for the story. Haggridd From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Aug 21 21:04:36 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:04:36 -0000 Subject: Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? In-Reply-To: <9luhal+ghdg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9luid4+vgp0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24637 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > > > cynthiaanncoe at h... said: > > > > > > > The diction of house elves grates on my ears, particularly Winky > > (PA, > > > > GoF). > > > > > > But house elves is supposed to be talking funny! Otherwise they is > > not being > > > house elves! And they is sounding a lot less dangerous this way. I > > is > > > thinking that house elves is going to be playing a bigger part in > > the next > > > books, I is. > > > > As for the house elves' dialect, dialects are fine, and Hagrid has a > > well-written dialect that really humanizes him. Doesn't get in the > > way at all. But the house elves? Kind of like reading dialogue > with > > speed bumps in it. > > > > > > I must be in the minority about House Elf dialect. I listened to Dale > after reading it and I thought that it was just perfect for the story. > > Haggridd It's appropriate. The House Elves, like it or not, are a slave class [caste]. They are servants, and that is their sole purpose and function. It is not in the best interests of their 'employers' to make sure they learn to read and get proper educations, so naturally they will speak in a less educated dialect pidgin English than the other creatures in JKR's world. At the risk of drawing a real world parallel, slaves in the pre- civil war US were treated likewise, and spoke likewise broken English. "Yowsa, massa," etc. If in the series we see JKR liberate more elves than Dobby [whose English seems to be clearing up just a little bit from his gainful employment] then we may see their speech patterns clear up. Indigo From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Aug 21 21:07:15 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:07:15 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010821.130447.-330527.0.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9luii3+ldqv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24638 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: What interesting comments! I personally think HP is chock full of sexuality, but it's how JKR deals with it that makes it so appropriate. There are no curses and no overt sexual scenes. However, we know that they are there; Hermione says "Ron!" at something Ron calls Malfoy in GoF, and there are a number of couples hidden in the rose bushes during the Yule Ball and I'm sure they ain't talkin'. Other examples of sexuality: -Ginny's very obvious crush on Harry in CoS -Harry's very obvious crush on Cho starting in PoA -Veelas -Every boy's reaction to Fleur -The tension between Ron and Hermione, which, IMO, is enough to heat up each and every dorm room at Hogwarts -Moaning Myrtle spying on Harry in GoF -Sirius Black's mere presence :-P I'm sure there are others, and I am quite sure that some of these existing situations will be more developed in OoP, but I don't expect JKR to turn them into lurid and steamy descriptions. I mean, we won't be reading about how Ron and Hermione were caught bathing together in the Prefects' bathroom (I'd enjoy reading about that though). What JKR does do, and you said this, Mindy, is keep us mostly focused on Harry's world, his struggles, the magic he is learing, and so on. She will undoubtedly continue to do that and I'm sure that this time next year we'll all be posting to our hearts' contents about what Snape is up to next or what exactly Harry's parents were doing that the Big V (I like that name too, Tabouli) was after them... --jenny from ravenclaw, who's all for some romance in HP *********************************************** From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Aug 21 21:14:55 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:14:55 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <9lug50+h5d3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9luj0f+i1oa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24639 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" > wrote: > > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP books is that it > is > > devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero sexual innuendo > or > > encounters. It makes it appropriate for children to read as well. > (GoF > > did have some things I found objectionable, but then again I am a > real > > prude and don't read mainstream literature due to offensive > content; HP > > is one of the books that I find acceptable to read.) I would hate > to see > > JK reduced to a romance-novel-writer and put stuff like that into > her > > books. Whenever I read the fanfics of HP and find lurid romances and > > slash romances I bristle, for this was not JK's intent - to turn her > > lovely characters into little sleazebags. I love the innocence of > her > > books, reading about adolescents and preteens who are NOT involved > in > > steamy relationships. I really hope she keeps up this standard, so > that > > her books will remain suitable for young children to read as well. > Let > > her concentrate on the one thing that sets her books apart from > others: > > the MAGIC of it. > > The sheer genius of Rowling's work is that its appearance of > innocence hides the complexity of the beast, so to speak. There are a > number of "mature" issues that she addresses: grief, death, betrayal, > self-esteem issues, etc. > > The relative sexual innocence of her characters IS refreshing in > light of *real* world statistics of teen sexuality. The Potter books > are a welcomed break for me. I see pregnant teens (as young as 12), > teens with multiple sexually transmitted diseases, etc. come through > the office everyday. The books are a nice fantasy world in which to > retreat into after an afternoon of 15 year old girls with genital > warts, 16 year old boys with gonorrhea, or a 14 year old mother of 18 > month old twins. Or worse, drawing a blood specimen on a 16 year old > for an HIV test and discussing the 'what ifs' with them. I empathize entirely with you. It's sad that we live in such a world where teenagers grow up too soon by sad sexual decisions or worse caving to peer pressure. > > While I understand that characters will grow up as the series > progresses, I see too much real world consequences of teen sex and > have no desire to read about it in the Potter world. But these ARE > Rowlings books and her characters. If she chooses to go down the > romance novel path, then that's that. Period. > I think it should be noted that there is a distinct difference between "normal teenage romantic" and "little sleazebags with lurid romances." Myrtle was apparently at the age where she'd begun to appreciate boys as "cute" when she was ghosted. Harry has sufficient modesty to duck embarrassedly deep into the bubbles when she makes her presence known. It's still somewhat innocent, but it's also realistically typical behaviour of kids at this age. All three of the trio have had crushes: Harry on Cho. Hermione on Gilderoy. Ron on Fleur. All normal for that age. There's also the fact that Ron's seeing Hermione as a girl for the first time. Normal. Innocence lost is a major theme in the HP books to my mind. Harry's lost innocence through the entire series, really. He wasn't innocent when Hagrid came for him. He already knew the world was a cruel place. His parents were taken from him before he ever got to know them. His only family, who'd normally be expected to love him, treated him like a pariah and treated him in a manner many would consider abusive. Then he finds out that his parents' best friend is in jail for their murder. Then he watches as the guy he's been thinking uncharitable thoughts about because of Cho Chang is murdered before his eyes. Innocence takes the most hits. Romantic/sexual innocence is just going to be taking a backseat because of how he has to live his life with the return of Voldemort looming over him. But the seeds are already planted for romantic issues to surface as the youth characters grow and mature. Percy has a girlfriend, and there are married couples with children in the series. The implication is sex had to have happened at some time. It's all in the handling. I trust JKR to nurture the aforementioned seeds into a fine bloom, rather than some prickly thing no one will want to touch. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. In fact, I hope she does broach the topic so that her legions and legions of young readers see that it's NORMAL to feel the way they do, and that they have CHOICES in how they react, respond, and behave with regard to their adolescent and pubescent changes. She's done fine so far with her lessons [prejudice is not to be tolerated just because it makes things easy. What may look one way on the surface is not necessarily true once you look past the surface. The rich are not necessarily "better" than anyone else]; I see no reason to doubt, naysay, or second guess her. Indigo From gb7243 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 21:56:05 2001 From: gb7243 at yahoo.com (Jacqueline Brasen) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: <998422151.5790.90734.l8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010821215605.72066.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24640 RE: Wandless Magic >How do you hold a wand & clap at the same time? >much like the food that appears and disappears on plates, this >is actually done by house-elves) >JB >Tom, the host at the Leaky Cauldron, ushers them into a >parlour and lights the fire with a snap of his fingers. >I like Alfredo Ramirez's solution: >JB >but I was guessing in the case of Tom that the fireplaces were >charmed beforehand to light up when Tom snapped his fingers. Makes >things easier, doesn't it? >Rrishi Gosh I missed this one. Ive read all the HP books so many times and there are still new things to notice! Another instance of wandless magic is in PS/SS down in the chamber. Quirrell snapped his fingers. Ropes sprang out of thin air and wrapped themselves tightly around Harry. Then a little while later: He clapped his hands once, and the ropes binding Harry fell off. So, while it could be that house elves were helping out, or that the fireplace was programmed to respond automatically, I believe it is also clear that certain types of wandless magic can and do occur. If you consider that the wand in part is used to focus magical energy then for me it seems reasonable that more accomplished wizards could train their mind to achieve some of this goal as well. IMO that would be a very useful tool in many situations. Jackie B. ===== "There is a moment we all come to in our own time and our own space where all that we've done we can undo if our heart's in the right place" Yates/Brooks From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 22:32:11 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:32:11 -0000 Subject: Where did it come from? Message-ID: <9lunhb+qt9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24641 I have always wanted to know, -- and I checked the archives and see no mention of my question -- where did Harry's Nimbus 2000 come from? We know it arrived at the breakfast table transported by six screech owls, and a note from McGonagall also arrives telling him not to open it. My question is, where did it come from? That was the top-of-the-line racing broom at the time. It had to cost a pretty penny. Did McGonagall foot the bill? Did Hogwarts? Does Griffindor have a sports budget to raid for emergencies? Did the money come from a rich alumnus? Who was the rich person who gave an unknown 1st year seeker the best broom on the market? Any ideas? Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 22:36:50 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:36:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's escape from the graveyard Message-ID: <9lunq2+i797@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24642 Harry is holding unto Cedric. He is using his wand to "Accio" the Tri-wizard cup. How does he catch the cup when both his hands are full of things he does not want to leave behind? Marcus From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 21 23:10:08 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:10:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's escape from the graveyard In-Reply-To: <9lunq2+i797@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lupog+106ar@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24643 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > Harry is holding unto Cedric. > > He is using his wand to "Accio" the Tri-wizard cup. > > How does he catch the cup when both his hands are full of things he > does not want to leave behind? > > Marcus Hi, Marcus. I wondered about this. But I guess if your life is at stake, you can catch a cup while you palm your wand. Also, you probably don't have to be precise. Just touching the cup ought to do it (note how Harry couldn't release the cup when he and Cedric were being transported the first time). More troubling to me is the movement when Harry is on the ground. He is probably still holding Cedric's wrist (with a tight grip), and he is face-down. Dumbledore turns Harry over, yet Harry still manages to hang onto Cedric's wrist. Hmmmm. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 21 23:18:02 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:18:02 -0000 Subject: Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? In-Reply-To: <9luid4+vgp0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9luq7a+lv71@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24644 The only thing in HP that's made me roll my eyes is Harry's line when Barty Crouch Jr. reveals his true identity. "You're mad," Harry said - he couldn't stop himself - "you're mad!" - CMC From ochfd42 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 23:54:42 2001 From: ochfd42 at yahoo.com (Angela Boyko) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where did it come from? In-Reply-To: <9lunhb+qt9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010821235442.77494.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24645 --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > I have always wanted to know, -- and I checked the > archives and see no > mention of my question -- where did Harry's Nimbus > 2000 come from? I thought it came from Dumbledore. Angela ===== * * * http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/4439/index.html * * * May the Force be with you _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 23:52:46 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 18:52:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <9lug50+h5d3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24646 While I understand that characters will grow up as the series progresses, I see too much real world consequences of teen sex and have no desire to read about it in the Potter world. But these ARE Rowling?s books and her characters. If she chooses to go down the romance novel path, then that's that. Period. Actually, in the Connections interview, JKR made it quite clear that she would not be delving deep into teen sexuality. She said that topics like teen pregnancy and rape simply did not go with the whole HP theme. I personally find this relieving; I get enough of that in the news or at school, thank you very much. She did say that the characters would begin to experience the effects of their hormones though. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 21 23:56:39 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:56:39 -0000 Subject: Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? In-Reply-To: <9luq7a+lv71@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lusfn+5jiq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24647 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > The only thing in HP that's made me roll my eyes is Harry's line when > Barty Crouch Jr. reveals his true identity. > > "You're mad," Harry said - he couldn't stop himself - "you're mad!" > > - CMC Boy, that was a clunker, wasn't it? You gave me a laugh with that one. My favorite clunker is: Harry is facing down Voldemort in SS. Voldemort reveals himself in Quirrell's turban and gives a scary speech about how he has no body and "once I have the Elixir of Life, I will be able to create a body of my own . . . Now . . . why don't you give me that Stone in your pocket?" "Hand it over"? Does Voldemort think that will persuade Harry? From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 00:17:57 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:17:57 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lutnl+o2iq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24648 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alfredo Ram?rez wrote: > > Actually, in the Connections interview, JKR made it quite clear that she > would not be delving deep into teen sexuality. She said that topics like > teen pregnancy and rape simply did not go with the whole HP theme. I > personally find this relieving; I get enough of that in the news or at > school, thank you very much. She did say that the characters would begin to > experience the effects of their hormones though. > > This isn't directed at you, AR. It is just a general observation: I find it interesting that for many dealing with sexuality somehow HAS to mean being sexually active and ipso facto luridly so, that alternative sexualities have to be by definition depraved, and that rape, teen pregnancy, and crime somehow must be the natural result of any sexual feeling or exploration. Where did we get this idea? Most of us probably felt our hormones surging somewhere around the age of thirteen. I will wager to guess, though, that however intense and important these feelings were, most of us probably waited until we were adults to become sexually active, and that those of us who are gay or lesbian are no more depraved or lurid than our straight counterparts. I would also suspect that for most of us LOVE and DEVOTION probably go hand in hand with sexuality, even when we are being a little on the adventerous side and swinging from the chandeliers. To bring this back to Topic, one of the things I love about Rowling is her ability to remember what it felt like to be thirteen or fourteen and to have a crush on absolutely the wrong person, or to have feelings you don't know what to do with, or (as in the case of Hermione IMHO) to suddenly realize that you may be well on your way to be turning into a swan. I think she explores these issues with humor and realism, and I suspect she will continue on that path. I don't think we are going to see the wizard condoms and lube of fanfiction (or even the leather pants!) but we will see more sexual and romantic tension and attraction between the characters, and that this will all wil simply be a part of their devotion to one another. What happens in the rosebushes will likely be left to the imagination. It is what is happening in the heart that really counts. My Two Knuts, Suzanne From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 00:25:24 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:25:24 -0000 Subject: Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? In-Reply-To: <9luq7a+lv71@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9luu5k+ss3v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24649 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > The only thing in HP that's made me roll my eyes is Harry's line when > Barty Crouch Jr. reveals his true identity. > > "You're mad," Harry said - he couldn't stop himself - "you're mad!" > > - CMC And Barty's reply which (I am going on memory here) involved a mad cackle and a "Yes, I am mad! Muhahahhahah!" Well, something like that, anyway. I found this whole episode in the office to be waaaaaay too Scooby- Doo for my tastes. I wanted to shake Barty and say "Din't you read the $%*@* Evil Overlord Manual??" --Suzanne From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 22 01:09:55 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:09:55 -0000 Subject: Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? In-Reply-To: <9luu5k+ss3v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lv0p3+oive@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24650 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > The only thing in HP that's made me roll my eyes is Harry's line > when > > Barty Crouch Jr. reveals his true identity. > > > > "You're mad," Harry said - he couldn't stop himself - "you're mad!" > > > > - CMC > And Barty's reply which (I am going on memory here) involved a mad > cackle and a "Yes, I am mad! Muhahahhahah!" Well, something like > that, anyway. > > I found this whole episode in the office to be waaaaaay too Scooby- > Doo for my tastes. I wanted to shake Barty and say "Din't you read > the $%*@* Evil Overlord Manual??" > > > --Suzanne Suzanne, it is about what you remember: "Mad, am I?" said Moody, his voice rising uncontrollably. "We'll see! We'll see who's mad, now that the Dark Lord has returned, with me at his side! He is back, Harry Potter, and you did not conquer him -- and now -- I conquer you!" Cindy From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 01:21:15 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:21:15 -0000 Subject: Did anything in the HP series make you roll your eyes a bit? In-Reply-To: <9lv0p3+oive@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lv1eb+lsbg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24651 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > > The only thing in HP that's made me roll my eyes is Harry's line > > when > > > Barty Crouch Jr. reveals his true identity. > > > > > > "You're mad," Harry said - he couldn't stop himself - "you're > mad!" > > > > > > - CMC > > And Barty's reply which (I am going on memory here) involved a mad > > cackle and a "Yes, I am mad! Muhahahhahah!" Well, something like > > that, anyway. > > > > I found this whole episode in the office to be waaaaaay too Scooby- > > Doo for my tastes. I wanted to shake Barty and say "Din't you read > > the $%*@* Evil Overlord Manual??" > > > > > > --Suzanne > > Suzanne, it is about what you remember: > > "Mad, am I?" said Moody, his voice rising uncontrollably. "We'll > see! We'll see who's mad, now that the Dark Lord has returned, with > me at his side! He is back, Harry Potter, and you did not conquer > him -- and now -- I conquer you!" Thanks for looking it up. I think what I was remembering was the rise of the voice, etc. It still made me roll my eyes. There he is! Evil Overloard Anonymous material, right there! Never ever indulge in an explanation before you "conquer" your nemesis! That only allows time for his rescuers to arrive! I thought this one section existed mainly to inform the reader of the plot-- I could not imagine the confrontation actually taking place for any other good reason. --Suzanne, blushing because frankly she really loves the book From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 22 01:24:18 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:24:18 -0000 Subject: Floo Regulation Commitee In-Reply-To: <9lsm84+jkj4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lv1k2+amo4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24652 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jessewilliams44 at y... wrote: > In COS when Harry and the Weasly's traveled by floo powder to Diagon > alley everyone took a pinch of floo powder. In GOF when the Weasleys > came to Harry up Mr Weasley threw one pinch into the fire and they > all travelled by it. My question to the group is what was the > difference between the travels in COS and GOF wouldn't it have been > more economical if nothing else for the Weasleys to have only used > one pinch instead of one for each person. We know that it was not a > time constraint issue because Harry and Mr.Weasley lurked for a few > minutes it seems to me. Watching Dudley's tongue grow, and waiting > for the Dursley's to say goodbye to Harry. I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that the Dursleys fireplace is not part of the Floo Network. Arthur says something about connecting this fireplace up temporarily for the trip to get Harry. IIRC, Arthur says or implies that someone in the MoM did this as a favor to him. So, since it's not a typical magical fireplace in a wizard house, maybe the amount of Floo Powder needed is different. Or maybe the book's editor was asleep at the switch... Marianne From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 02:04:39 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:04:39 -0000 Subject: Where did it come from? In-Reply-To: <20010821235442.77494.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9lv3vn+5q35@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24653 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Angela Boyko wrote: > > --- prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > I have always wanted to know, -- and I checked the > > archives and see no > > mention of my question -- where did Harry's Nimbus > > 2000 come from? > > I thought it came from Dumbledore. > > Angela > It was paid for by alumnus Ludo Bagman, who thought he would make up the Galleons by wagering on the Quidditch Cup Match. Haggridd From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Aug 22 02:11:06 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:11:06 -0500 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens References: <9lutnl+o2iq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8314BA.1020409@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24654 Hi everyone -- I'm back on-line again more or less .... I agree heartily with points made by John, Suzanne & others. It would be strange to me if these characters remained rooted in pre-pubescence in the latter 3 books. I trust JKR will paint the picture with her characteristic finesse, and most all of us will be satisfied with the portrayal (if not the actual pairings -- ). She has said that she doesn't intend for her characters to stagnate in the pre-teen mode, and I for one applaud that. It just wouldn't seem right to me if their romantic lives didn't bear any relationship whatever to their chronological age in the books. I doubt we'll see some of the more detailed and lurid scenes of the fanfic world in the last 3 books, but I doubt the characters will be unrealistically young in those books either. Penny From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 02:23:52 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:23:52 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wandless Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24655 I'm not going to get all flustered and say, "WE-ELL...er...Maybe Dumbledore wanted to be cool and impress everybody and so he might've shoved it up his sleeve and er...ummm....When he clapped his hands his wrists er...rubbed the wand and then...er....VOILA! Instead I'm going to blush and say these three words: WHOOPS!! SORRY!! [and] YAY!! OKthatll never doIm going to need to expand, arent I? Whoops! Should have checked that before I posted... Sorry! I apologize, Kelly ( you Yarn Junky, you ;) ) ....I shouldn't have repudiated your post without checking my memory first. And YAY!! I really did want Dumbledore to have the ability to perform wandless magic... I just LOVE it! I guess I should sit back down with the books and give them a good re-read. It's been about 3 months since the last one, and I'm getting a tad rusty on my facts, obviously! I guess Ive tossed the HP facts out in order for my teeny-weeny memory to take in the other books Ive read in the past few weeks. Thanks for the clarification! Katie** (Whose spell check insists on changing wandless to wangles every time it appears) ******************************************************************* 'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' And he fainted. ******************************************************************* ___________________Kelly the Yarn Junky's Post:________________________ Here's the exact passage: "Which means," Dumbledore called over the storm of applause [snip] "we need a little change of decoration." He clapped his hands. In an instant, the green hangings became scarlet.... How do you hold a wand & clap at the same time? Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 02:41:39 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:41:39 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll... Message-ID: <9lv653+vlk0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24656 My biggest eye roll? At this exact line in GOF 33, pg658 USed: "Now untie him, Wormtail, and give him back his wand." Now, I *know* everyone will say that Voldemort needed to do this to prove to his followers that he was stronger/better than Harry. And I see that point, I truly do. But the MOMENT I saw the above line, I knew Harry was going to escape. And at the moment I thought, "Voldemort, you idiot, you should kill Harry, sweep his remains under the rug, and make plans to terrorize the wizarding world. You do NOT untie him, give him his wand back, and 'duel'. Regardless about appearances, it is FAR more important to get rid of the kid than to 'prove' you're stronger than him. You idiot." Voldemort goes through a heck of a lot of trouble to get this kid and he releases him? Feh, I say, feh. I very nearly stopped reading at that point, I was rolling my eyes so much. It was the down point in the entire series for me. I'm hoping that Voldemort gets his act in gear after this and doesn't make such a ridiculous mistake in the future. Oooo, I know I'm going to be roasted alive for what I wrote. *dons asbestos-lined underwear in preparation* ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Updated 8/17/01 "...Afraid of change, afraid of staying the same When temptation calls, we just look away..." - Barenaked Ladies, "What A Good Boy" From john at walton.to Wed Aug 22 02:52:20 2001 From: john at walton.to (john at walton.to) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:52:20 EDT Subject: Eye Roll Message-ID: <10c.4481c1f.28b47864@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24657 Amber said: > > My biggest eye roll? At this exact line in GOF 33, pg658 USed: > > "Now untie him, Wormtail, and give him back his wand." > > Now, I *know* everyone will say that Voldemort needed to do this to > prove to his followers that he was stronger/better than Harry. And I > see that point, I truly do. But the MOMENT I saw the above line, I > knew Harry was going to escape. And at the moment I > thought, "Voldemort, you idiot, you should kill Harry, sweep his > remains under the rug, and make plans to terrorize the wizarding > world. You do NOT untie him, give him his wand back, and 'duel'. > Regardless about appearances, it is FAR more important to get rid of > the kid than to 'prove' you're stronger than him. You idiot." > Voldemort goes through a heck of a lot of trouble to get this kid and > he releases him? Feh, I say, feh. > > I very nearly stopped reading at that point, I was rolling my eyes so > much. It was the down point in the entire series for me. I'm hoping > that Voldemort gets his act in gear after this and doesn't make such > a ridiculous mistake in the future. > > Oooo, I know I'm going to be roasted alive for what I wrote. *dons > asbestos-lined underwear in preparation* > > ~Amber Yeah, I agree. And the really annoying thing is that JKR is so multifaceted in her other characters (especially the baddies -- Lockhart and Wormtail, for example, also Sirius in PoA when we think he's a baddy) that for her to have Vole D. More do this is totally groanworthy. If it were a movie, I would be yelling at the screen "No! You STUPID man! Don't give him the wand! EVIL OVERLORD BOOK!" I guess that's what happens when a writer is pressured to get a book out on schedule -- I'm MORE than willing to wait a few extra months for OotP for JKR to be able to iron things like this out of her prose. --Ivan ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to There is no such thing as a moral book or an immoral book. Books are well written or badly written. That is all. --Oscar Wilde ________________________________ From fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph Wed Aug 22 03:15:00 2001 From: fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph (Reese) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:15:00 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wandless Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24658 >Good thoughts. Wizards seem only to be able to do simple spells >without a wand. In fact, Sirius makes this clear when he says he >couldn't drive off the dementors without a wand. *** hi! it's been a long time since I've posted but, I couldn't help replying to this post.I don't believe that only *simple* spells could be performed without a wand. Although it does entail practice from the wizards' part. To prove my point, who here remembers the first Quidditch match Harry has ever played in? In Sorcerer's Stone, when Harry was playing seeker,his broom suddenly went out of control. Hagrid told them(Hermione and Ron) that only *powerful* dark magic can interfere with the broom. Of course, Hermione and co. thought that it was Snape who was doing it. To quote from the text, "Snape was in the middle of the stands opposite them. He had his eyes fixed on Harry and was muttering nonstop under his breath." In my opinion, it would have been impossible for Snape to be pointing his wand from under his robes or even at his side. If he was in the middle of the stands while using the wand, the people in front of him would have noticed or even they could have been hit by the power. IMO, the wizards' eyes could also serve as a *focusing* device for drawing out magic like that of a wand. But I believe that there are only a few wizards who could do such a thing. We've seen what Harry did to the boa constrictor. It could be one of his gifts as well. (It would really be interesting if there would be a *special* class in Hogwarts wherein students can practice magic using their eyes and mind, something like telekenisis. But, I don't think that's going to happen.) Of course, are a lot of other wandless magic in different forms and shapes like potions or elixirs and other magical artifacts. Reese __________________________________ www.edsamail.com From nausicaa at atlantic.net Wed Aug 22 03:14:08 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:14:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's escape from the graveyard References: <9lupog+106ar@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B832380.2F99E0C1@atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24659 cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > Harry is holding unto Cedric. > > > > He is using his wand to "Accio" the Tri-wizard cup. > > > > How does he catch the cup when both his hands are full of things he > > does not want to leave behind? > > > > Marcus > > Hi, Marcus. I wondered about this. But I guess if your life is at > stake, you can catch a cup while you palm your wand. Also, you > probably don't have to be precise. Just touching the cup ought to do > it (note how Harry couldn't release the cup when he and Cedric were > being transported the first time). Well, the wands don't seem to be that thick, and I can hold on to a pen with my thumb while picking things up with my other 4 fingers...that seems about the most likely method of completing this feat. > More troubling to me is the movement when Harry is on the ground. He > is probably still holding Cedric's wrist (with a tight grip), and he > is face-down. Dumbledore turns Harry over, yet Harry still manages > to hang onto Cedric's wrist. Hmmmm. My visual on this one -- one person face down, one person face up, very close to each other. The hands are held right to right (or left to left), & there is quite a bit of slack so that when Harry's rolled over, his arm &/or part of Cedric's is over Harry's body. I don't remember what other details were given in the story about body positions. -- Jenny "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." From litalex at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 04:05:44 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010821.130447.-330527.0.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010822040544.66919.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24660 Hello, --- "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP > books is that it is > devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero > sexual innuendo or > encounters. It makes it appropriate for children to > read as well. (GoF I just...find this attitude of how children desperately need adult protection (that so many seem to have) and how many people consider pre-teens children fascinating. Hardly two hundred years have passed when girls at Harry's current age got married to men...Barty Crouch Sr.'s age. Ignorance isn't bliss, but a pit waiting for the kids to fall in. But it's definitely none of my business how you raise your kids; so, I'll shut up about this topic right now. Sigh, if not for that silly Vicky... > books. Whenever I read the fanfics of HP and find > lurid romances and > slash romances I bristle, for this was not JK's > intent - to turn her > lovely characters into little sleazebags. I love the I object to the implication that people who fall in love are sleazebags. JKR doesn't focus on the romantic sides of her characters, true, but it's more than obvious that they have romantic feelings toward other characters. If JKR didn't intend for any of her characters to have romantic feelings, she wouldn't have mentioned them in the first place. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 22 04:06:09 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 04:06:09 -0000 Subject: Hooray for Mad-Eye Moody (filk) Message-ID: <9lvb3i+c1ef@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24661 Hooray for Mad-Eye Moody (GoF, Ch. 12) (To the tune of Hooray for Captain Spaulding) Dedicated to Amy Z (THE SCENE: The Great Hall. In the midst of a tumultuous thunderstorm, Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody enters the hall, and is introduced by Dumbledore. NOTE: Moody's lines are in quotes) DUMBLEDORE: (spoken) May I introduce our new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher - Professor Moody .. CHORUS OF STUDENTS & FACULTY Hooray for Mad-Eye Moody! Our new Dark Arts Professor! "You ought accept no lesser" Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! Hooray for Mad-Eye Moody! The battle-scarr?d Auror! "The horror! Oh, the horror!" Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! To keep his Constant Vigilance Takes every ounce of diligence And several tons of militance "Hey! Hey!" Just see his blue eye whirlin' The famed Dark Wizard catcher "I'm awfully good, you betcher" Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! He radiates charisma! The life of every party! "Feel free to call me Bart ? uh- Alastor" Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! Hooray for Mad-Eye Moody! The highest Auror scorer! Through a foeglass He'll teach his class Just make sure that you pass! Hooray, hooray, hooray! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 04:13:37 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 04:13:37 -0000 Subject: Don't be too hasty! (Was: Wandless Magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9lvbhh+g98h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24662 > ___________________Kelly the Yarn Junky's Post:________________________ > > Here's the exact passage: > > "Which means," Dumbledore called over the storm of applause [snip] "we > need a little change of decoration." > > He clapped his hands. In an instant, the green hangings became > scarlet.... > > How do you hold a wand & clap at the same time? > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie How do we KNOW that he was performing magic? It seems to me that in this case, he knew what was going to happen. It would make sense from him to prearrange something. Perhaps the house elves were waiting for his signal? Or he could have set up a spell whose trigger was a hand-clap. More to the point, is there as case of Dumbledore performing magic AT THE SPUR OF THE MOMENT without a wand? I can't think of any. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 04:25:02 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 04:25:02 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <10c.4481c1f.28b47864@aol.com> Message-ID: <9lvc6u+t3fc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24663 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., john at w... wrote: > Amber said: > > > > > My biggest eye roll? At this exact line in GOF 33, pg658 USed: > > > > "Now untie him, Wormtail, and give him back his wand." > > > > Now, I *know* everyone will say that Voldemort needed to do this to > > prove to his followers that he was stronger/better than Harry. And I > > see that point, I truly do. But the MOMENT I saw the above line, I > > knew Harry was going to escape. And at the moment I > > thought, "Voldemort, you idiot, you should kill Harry, sweep his > > remains under the rug, and make plans to terrorize the wizarding > > world. You do NOT untie him, give him his wand back, and 'duel'. > > Regardless about appearances, it is FAR more important to get rid of > > the kid than to 'prove' you're stronger than him. You idiot." > > Voldemort goes through a heck of a lot of trouble to get this kid and > > he releases him? Feh, I say, feh. > > > > I very nearly stopped reading at that point, I was rolling my eyes so > > much. It was the down point in the entire series for me. I'm hoping > > that Voldemort gets his act in gear after this and doesn't make such > > a ridiculous mistake in the future. > > > > Oooo, I know I'm going to be roasted alive for what I wrote. *dons > > asbestos-lined underwear in preparation* > > > > ~Amber > > Yeah, I agree. And the really annoying thing is that JKR is so multifaceted > in her other characters (especially the baddies -- Lockhart and Wormtail, for > example, also Sirius in PoA when we think he's a baddy) that for her to have > Vole D. More do this is totally groanworthy. If it were a movie, I would be > yelling at the screen "No! You STUPID man! Don't give him the wand! EVIL > OVERLORD BOOK!" > > I guess that's what happens when a writer is pressured to get a book out on > schedule -- I'm MORE than willing to wait a few extra months for OotP for JKR > to be able to iron things like this out of her prose. > > --Ivan > > ________________________________ > > John Walton -- john at w... > Well, I think it had to happen. Voldemort HAD to give Harry his wand back. Why? Because these guys have been living free of Voldemort for thirteen years. They've gone on with their lives. Voldemort was a bad dream for at least some of them. Now he's back. He has GOT to show he is in control. He cannot show it by simply snuffing out Harry. What does that prove? Nothing. He's murdered before, lots of times. There is no more shock value left in it. Why did it have to be Harry? If he was just going to murder the blood-giver, it could have been any number of enemies. It could have even been Barty Sr. But no, it had to be Harry. Lily's blood- protection? Big deal. When Harry is gone, what good is it to him? Harry HAD to be snatched out of the protecting arms of Dumbledore. Harry HAD to die in a duel. Nothing less would suffice. You guys need to re-read the evil overlord's handbook, especially the chapter on how to sway wavering followers. :) Marcus From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 05:06:50 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:06:50 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wandless Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24664 Alfredo Ramirez (or JBwhich do you prefer?) wrote: Actually, I don't think Dumbledore is actually doing magic here. I get the feeling, that much like the food that appears and disappears on plates, this is actually done by house-elves simply obeying their master's orders. After all, decorations and cleaning do seem to fall under the jurisdiction of our poor mistreated house-elves. :-) And Rrishi wrote: but I was guessing in the case of Tom that the fireplaces were charmed beforehand to light up when Tom snapped his fingers. Makes things easier, doesn't it? Or, does practice enable a wizard or witch to do simple and very familiar spells without the aid of a wand? But this is an old topic... And Jackie B. Wrote: So, while it could be that house elves were helping out, or that the fireplace was programmed to respond automatically, I believe it is also clear that certain types of wandless magic can and do occur. If you consider that the wand in part is used to focus magical energy then for me it seems reasonable that more accomplished wizards could train their mind to achieve some of this goal as well. IMO that would be a very useful tool in many situations. Im choosing to believe that all these points are logical. At this point I think Ill base my understanding of wandless magic on the idea that things can be charmed to work at the snap of a finger or various other commands, that house-elves help out, that you can practice until a spell is like second nature to you, and that very accomplished wizards can do lots of spells without their wands. In GoFVoldemort is talking to the Death Eaters (chapter: The Death Eaters), and he says (and this time I dug out the book, so its an actual quote), for I had no body, and every spell which might have helped me required the use of a wand I wonder what way I should take this Because it seems to me that it can be taken a few different ways. For instance: a) There are spells that do not require wands, but they werent relevant to his needs. b) He could not do magic, because he didnt have a wandperiod. c) He wasnt powerful enough anymore to perform those spells without his wand, though he might have been able to at the height of his power. d) He never was powerful enough to perform spells without wands. (But then again, I dont think Quirrell was, and he made ropes to tie up Harry appear out of thin air. I always thought that Voldemort was channeling his powers through Quirrell and that was why he could snap his fingers and make ropes appear.) e) I would consider Voldemort an accomplished wizard, possibly as accomplished, or even as powerful as Dumbledore, who seems to exhibit the ability to do magic without a wand. Now, if he was indeed this powerful (according to the aforesaid theory that accomplished wizards could do spells without wands), what would it matter if he didnt have his body to work a wand with? He seemingly still has some magical essence (since I dont think that was sucked out of him by the rebounded curse), and should have been able to do those spells on his own anyway! Right.? Any thoughts?? Katie** ******************************************************************* 'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' And he fainted. ******************************************************************* _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 05:11:39 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:11:39 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24665 When it is tastefully done, I do enjoy seeing adult characters behave like adults, and that includes what they do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. I too feel that JKR should keep her books MAGIC- and ADVENTURE- oriented, instead of delving into the details of adolescent hormones. The purity of her plot-lines IS refreshingly innocent, and I wouldn't be 'bristled', as Mindy put it, if say, Ron and Hermione were to share a quick peck, because I am depending on JKR to leave out all the 'juicy' details and make somewhat of a joke out of it. Remember Percy and Penelope kissing in CoS? We knew it happenedand we didnt need a play-by-play, and I doubt well get one from JKR in the future. I am looking forward to seeing the plot lines to grow with the characters, and we already see that in Hermione and Viktor, Harry and Cho, Cho and Cedric, Ron and Hermione, Hagrid and Olympe Maxime. I dont think JKR will shy away from writing about their emotions and relationships at all, but I really doubt that there will be any lurid details. I think it will make an excellent subplot for the adventures that have always been the main plot of the books. Just a tidbit for John (or Ivan, if you'd like): I think you would probably be VERY surprised as to what some boys and girls of fourteen do. Most that I know are nowhere near as inexperienced as you seem to think they are. I agree with you on the fact that the characters in HP are not innocent exactly, when we look at the prejudices etc but sexually they are, as far as weve seen, and I think that may be what Mindy was referring to. You are totally correct in saying that most fanfics that are mostly sex, or have many details about sex, do take place when the characters are older than 16, and the ones that I have read have, in the most part, been tastefully done. Please excuse me if I have insulted anyone in this post, or if it doesnt make complete sense, or if it is entirely to OT. I am sick and many things have gone way over my head and way under my feet in these past few days... Katie** (Who is thoroughly impressed by all the intelligent, opinionated posts on this topicYAY!) ******************************************************************* 'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' And he fainted. ******************************************************************* _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 22 05:18:27 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:18:27 -0000 Subject: Villains Spouting Exposition In-Reply-To: <9lv1eb+lsbg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lvfb3+2s5u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24666 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > > I thought this one section existed mainly to inform the reader of the > plot-- I could not imagine the confrontation actually taking place > for any other good reason. > > --Suzanne, blushing because frankly she really loves the book That's just a difference between books and real life - the reader must be informed at some point as to what is going on, and who better to inform him than the evil agent actually manipulating the plot? and what better time than at the moment of maximum suspense? In real life terms, this may ridiculous - it would be like John Wilkes Booth giving Lincoln an explanation of why he was about to be assasinated - but in a fictive work, this is not only necessary, it may be preferable. Given that the author/director has to inform the reader/viewer as to what is going on at some point or other, the only real choice is how and when to do it. JKR's only other option (given this particular plot twist) was to have Moody/Crouch lash out at Potter without explanation, and then, after being struck down, to have his motivation and actions explained by some third person. But who would that person be? If it were, say, Dumbledore, that would beg the question as to how Dumbledore was able to learn so much about Crouch - and if he knew so much, why did he wait so long to intervene. And if it were Voldy, we'd have the same overly talky Evil Overlord problem as before. What follows is a major spoiler for Hitchcock's Psycho: You remember how Psycho ends: Anthony Perkins (as Norman Bates), garbed as the hitherto unseen Mrs. Bates, attempts to stab John Gavin, but without a word of explanation from him. After he is overpowered and taken into custody, the basis for Bates' behavior is given in the penultimate scene by a psychiatrist (a "Dr. Richmond"). All very rational and realistic - the "expert" comes in to explain the meaning of it all to all us common folk. But it's also a clunky and prosaic ending that mars an otherwise great movie. How much more memorable - especially given Perkins' superb acting skills - if Norman Bates rather than Dr Richmond was the one to inform the audience of the weird Bates mother-son dynamics? - CMC (Who also thinks that Voldy calling for Harry to be untied in GoF was a moment of high drama) From Maeve183 at aol.com Wed Aug 22 05:42:40 2001 From: Maeve183 at aol.com (Maeve183 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:42:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia the Witch? Message-ID: <126.3695367.28b4a050@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24667 Well I've been reading all these Petunia witch theories and I thought I would share something interesting I found out. According to JK Rowling someone will start using magic in future books who never had powers before, right? So if it is Petunia then she didn't KNOW she had powers. I think they might have just been awakened by something stressful (perhaps we all have a little magic in us). ~Pants Sorry if someone else covered this, it's late and I'm dense sometimes, LOL. From litalex at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 05:43:57 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <9lvc6u+t3fc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010822054357.78171.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24668 Hello, Actually, I was miffed by Voldemort's (or Wormtail's, or any of the bad guys') long speeches. I kept thinking that they must not have read the evil overlord list. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From catlady at wicca.net Wed Aug 22 05:46:33 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:46:33 -0700 Subject: Honeydukes - NImbus 2000 - Message-ID: <3B834739.5521B5F4@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24669 Arabellina wrote > I would be very grateful if you suggest some > etymology of the name of Honeydukes. It's probably something weird, like the surname Black can mean 'black' 'white' or 'yellow' depending on its origin (I read this in a surname book once). Black meaning black is obvious, Black meaning white started as blanc (the French word), and Black meaning yellow starting as some weird Saxon word like bleag. But its nice to think that the family name started as the nickname of a boxer (pugilist), with 'dukes' referring to his fists, as in 'put up your dukes', and 'honey' similar to the 'sugar' in the nicknames of modern boxers named Sugar Ray this and that. prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > I have always wanted to know, -- and I checked the > archives and see no mention of my question -- > where did Harry's Nimbus 2000 come from? Snotty answer: from Quality Quidditch Supplies. Angela Boyko wrote: > I thought it came from Dumbledore. I thought it came from McGonagall. She wrote the accompanying note, and she was the one who was very eager for Gryffindor to do well at Quidditch. But I wonder where the money came from: did McGonagall (or Dumbledore, in your theory) pay for it out of her own pocket, or did she arrange to have the money come out of Harry's inherited Gringotts vault? On the one hand, I'd think it would be scandalous for a teacher to give a student such an expensive gift (favoritism!); OTOH how would she be authorized to take money from Harry's vault? ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L ewd A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From Maeve183 at aol.com Wed Aug 22 06:07:26 2001 From: Maeve183 at aol.com (Maeve183 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:07:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens Message-ID: <112.3943839.28b4a61e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24670 LOL I find your opinion interesting. it is great that Harry Potter can keep all the adult content out but there are those people out there (I am one of them) who have a tendency to still smash people together in incredibly sex-ridden fanfics, it's just the nature of the beast. ~Pants From frantyck at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 06:29:56 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:29:56 -0000 Subject: Where did it come from? In-Reply-To: <9lunhb+qt9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lvjh4+10qqv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24671 --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > I have always wanted to know, -- and I checked the > archives and see no > mention of my question -- where did Harry's Nimbus > 2000 come from? I thought it came from Dumbledore. Angela Two ideas: 1. Perhaps each house has a discretionary budget for random necessaries, which McGonagall dipped into. In which case, the broom should belong to the school, so hmm, that doesn't work. 2. Perhaps they added the cost of the broom to Harry's tuition bill, payable at the start of the next term? He can certainly afford it. Glumpf. Unanswerable question! Rrishi From frantyck at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 06:33:50 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:33:50 -0000 Subject: Where did it come from? In-Reply-To: <9lv3vn+5q35@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9lvjoe+f0vi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24672 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Angela Boyko wrote: > > > > --- prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > > I have always wanted to know, -- and I checked the > > > archives and see no > > > mention of my question -- where did Harry's Nimbus > > > 2000 come from? > > > It was paid for by alumnus Ludo Bagman, who thought he would make up > the Galleons by wagering on the Quidditch Cup Match. > > Haggridd Aargh! Footnote! I need a footnote! ;^P From klhurt at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 06:37:11 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010822063711.37036.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24673 >'?for I had no body, and every spell >which might have helped me required >the use of a wand?' I definitely read this to mean that some spells do NOT require wands for strong wizards. Most difficult sans Wand? Apparating & the Animagi Transformation are both difficult magic done spontaneously at will with no wand evident. Not difficult but in PoA, on the train to Hogwarts, Lupin conjures a crackling ball of light into his hand with no wand. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klhurt at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 06:46:20 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eye Roll Message-ID: <20010822064620.11414.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24674 There were at least three brooms in the Key Room in the penultimate chapter in SS. THAT made me roll my eyes. I also rolled my eyes when Hermione lied during the troll episode because the truth would've kept everyone from getting in trouble. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Aug 22 07:33:34 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:33:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where did it come from? In-Reply-To: <9lvjh4+10qqv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010822073334.67697.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24675 --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: I have always wanted to know, -- and I checked the archives and see no mention of my question -- where did Harry's Nimbus 2000 come from? So where do the Quidditch robes come from? And the school brooms? My theory is that the school gets an annual budget, maybe from the MoM, maybe by donations, maybe it's simply the interests of a large capital safely kept at Gringott's.This budget pays teachers' salaries, food, all kinds of necessary equipment from bedclothes to new books for the library, and also everything related to Quidditch. The school equips the players with robes and brooms, if a new player joins a team, they buy a new broom for him/her, and obviously don't choose just any old model, but always the most recent and best available on the market. Hence Harry's nimbus 200. To give a whole team an entirely new set of brooms is not part of the concept, but if somebody like Lucius Malfoy chooses to throw some thousands of Galleons out of the window to buy seven Nimbus 2001, he is free to do so. Susanna/pigwidgeon37
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Aug 22 07:53:09 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:53:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010822075309.71917.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24676 --- princesskatie115 - ha scritto > In GoF Voldemort is talking to the Death Eaters > (chapter: The Death Eaters), > and he says (and this time I dug out the book, so > it?s an actual quote ), > ? for I had no body, and every spell which might > have helped me required the > use of a wand ? > > I wonder what way I should take this Because it > seems to me that it can be > taken a few different ways. > Any thoughts?? I always had this extremely prosaic idea that, first without a body, and then inhabiting snakes, Voldemort didn't even have *hands* to do magic. I'm sure that wizards *can* do magic with their bare hands, it's just a question of focusing power. When Gred or Forge (I never remeber who it was) turned Ron's Teddy Bear into a spider at the age of five, he probably did it without a wand (if the story is true, which I somehow doubt). Harry blew up Aunt Marge without a wand. So my theory would be that wandless magic is possible 1)when the wizard in question is still very young and untrained, in case of strong emotional stress- magic simply "erupts", but cannot be controlled and used at will. 2)when the wizard has full consciousness of his/her power and can control his/her magic abilities. You could compare it with the strange phenomenon of new-born babies able to swim under water, then losing this ability, later on using some device for learning how to swim, and finally being able to swim all by themselves, without any help. Susanna/pigwidgeon37 _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read > our netiquette tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked > Questions file (VFAQ) at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List > Elf or the Moderator Team at > hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Aug 22 08:10:18 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:10:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010822081018.64918.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24677 --- Alfredo_Ram?rez ha scritto:
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klhurt at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 08:25:48 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010822081018.64918.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010822082548.58477.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24678 --- Alfredo_Ram?rez wrote: > >Actually, in the Connections >interview, JKR... said that topics >like teen pregnancy and rape simply >did not go with the whole HP theme. I don't recall the word 'rape' being mentioned anywhere in the interview. She said she wouldn't be writing about "teen pregnancy or drug abuse". She also never said Harry wouldn't lose his virginity. However, she DID say that she thought the coming books will still be appropriate for children 8 and up. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klhurt at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 08:40:25 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010822081018.64918.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010822084025.19766.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24679 --- Susanne Schmid wrote: >I'm just wondering why teen sex has to >include rape of all possible things! I don't think it HAS to, but it would be realistic. Consider * In real life, more than 6 out of 10 women will be raped sometime in their lives. (Some expert estimates higher.) * In real life, teen date rapes are well on the rise. * In real life, groups like Voldemort's supporters don't hesitate to rape the women they torture, all the while protesting how disgusting & ugly said women are. Rape, as I'm sure everyone here will agree, is about power not sex. That being said, I doubt seriously that JKR will portray rapine (obs. meaning) in the coming books. Allude to it, possibly, but not portray it. In fact, it could even explain why Voldemort didn't kill Lily straight off. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Aug 22 08:45:14 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:45:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010821.130447.-330527.0.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010822084514.16264.qmail@web14704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24680 --- "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" ha
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tabouli at unite.com.au Wed Aug 22 09:20:41 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:20:41 +1000 Subject: Innuendo, eye rolls Message-ID: <003201c12aeb$d46d5260$8790aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 24681 Mindy: > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP books is that it is devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero sexual innuendo or encounters. It makes it appropriate for children to read as well. I think "absolutely zero" is pushing it a bit. As people have pointed out, Roger and Fleur, canoodling in the rosebushes, Percy kissing Penelope, men's reactions to the veela, Myrtle peeking at Harry in the prefect's bath... there are plenty of examples. What I think you mean is the discretion and light touch with which JKR handles the subject. For my part, I'm always a bit disturbed when I see people happily thrusting their 4 year olds in front of programs where people are beating each other up and shooting each other, and then whisking a teatowel over their 13 year old's eyes at the first hint of anything sexual on screen. I was also appalled when I visited Stellenbosch in South Africa and learned that students' parents (this is *university students* we're talking about) have banned condom machines on campus because it "encourages immorality". Even worse, the 20 something tertiary educated friends I was visiting were half-shocked and half-impressed that I carry such immoral contraceptive devices with me, and didn't even know where to buy them, despite the fact that they were all sexually active! In a country with a 10% HIV infection rate!! We are talking *death* here! I told them about Australia's Sodom 'n' Gomorrah style "remember to use a condom" ads on the back of public toilet doors and on television, and they were boggling. There's something to be said for Australia's down-to-earth no-frills secular society... I'm definitely of the "ignorance is dangerous" faith. OTOH (and this is getting both controversial and off-topic: perhaps replies should go to the OT list!), I'm also rather depressed by the excessive sexualisation of the Western world. Manufactured singing groups made up of out of work models doing dances composed of pelvic thrusts and sensual posturing in skimpy lycra clothes. Eight year old girls on diets and wearing makeup. The growing perception that any activity other than shopping (to get clothes and products to make yourself sexually attractive), movies (where you mostly go to ogle attractive actors), net surfing (where you look at sexy pictures and get into online innuendo) and going out to bars and clubs to pose and pick up is UNCOOL. This bothers me not because of anything to do with "immorality", but because (a) there is, amazingly, more to life than sex, and a lot of potentially interesting, stimulating things teenagers would once have done (*hobbies*? You have *hobbies*?? Oh my god, you need to get a life) are disappearing, and (b) the images of sex and sexiness presented by the media are a long way from reality, and leave the average child hitting puberty in a very awkward position: not really knowing much about the actual process of sex (how to do it, whether to do it, how to avoid pregnancy and disease, how to cope with the accompanying emotions) and feeling totally inadequate compared to the bodies and activities they've been seeing on-screen since they were children. As I mentioned long ago, one of the things I liked best about American Beauty was its illustration about the legacy the sexualised society has left us: the poor pretty teenager who's internalised the message that to be sexy is the pinnacle of life and makes her special and envied and a model, and gives her power over men, who boasts and uses her body to posture and flaunt, but as soon as a man seriously tries to take her up on her invitation, she's terrified and feels that she has to follow up with a great "performance" which she doesn't have a clue about... Cynthia: > I didn't look forward to Lockhart and found him kind of annoying. Which suggests to me that perhaps he's just not written quite as well. I actually thought Lockhart was a great example of an "alternative" villain, and rather well-written (if a touch over the top for humour value), much better than Crabbe and Goyle in particular (I've often whinged about them) and Voldemort. As for eye-rolls, the part which annoyed me the most were the Veelas. Ron saying "Did you know that I've invented a broomstick that can fly to Jupiter?" or whatever was a bit unconvincing. Also (she says, reaching for her bullet-proof vest), I thought the school song was a pretty lame piece of poetry which doesn't scan very well, even allowing for the fact that it's Dumbledore's little joke. I liked "Ford Anglia to the rescue!", and can tolerate Barty/Moody's speech at the end of GoF under the author's imperative cop-out clause: we needed to know what happened. Tabouli [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mediaphen at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 09:20:33 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:20:33 -0000 Subject: Honeydukes, Wandless Magic Message-ID: <9lvth1+lvit@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24682 Hi, everybody! arabellina wrote: >I would be very grateful if you suggest some etymology of the name >of Honeydukes. What it can mean? Welcome to the Kingdom of Overflown Mailboxes! IMHO, simple advertising: Name your store/product as a combination of a description of what you sell and a description on how well you do it. Bait Bargain would be a much better name for a fishing supplies store than Maggot Menace, for instance. If you sell candy (which most certainly contains lots of honey) and consider yourself as king or duke or earl at doing it, an appropriate name for your store could be Honeydukes. The same marketing idea can be seen in such Muggle stores/franchises as Burger King, and others. Wandless magic: Kelly the Yarn Junkie (btw, what do you do with the yarn if you consider yourself being a junkie? ;-) ) wrote (and others have expressed similar thoughts): >Most difficult sans Wand? >Apparating & the Animagi Transformation are both difficult magic done >spontaneously at will with no wand evident. There's a difference between aforementioned difficult magic and, say Riddikulus and Expecto Patronum (which are approx the same level of difficulty): Apparation and Animagi Transformation effect the spellcaster himerself, whereas the likes of Ridd and Exp Patr are aimed at another person/object/being. Just an observation. I still stand perplexed on the whole wand/no wand issue, but I tend to lean towards the "easy spell you've made a gazillion times and can probably make in your sleep don't need a wand"-"difficult spells need a focusing device such as a wand or a cigarette lighter"-theory. Martin "Insert funny/insightful/profound quote here" From aiz24 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 10:30:28 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:30:28 -0000 Subject: Bludgers - Eye rolls Message-ID: <9m01k4+8cmc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24683 Allyse asked: >Was anyone else appalled to discover in QTTA that the Bludgers are actually made of iron? Yes, I wondered about the death toll too! It's hard to believe that no one's been killed by one in centuries of play at Hogwarts. Maybe they're enchanted to be slightly less damaging than your normal 10-inch iron ball would be. Cynthia wrote: > The Quiddich World Cup (It's a tall order to make us care about Ireland vs. Bulgaria). (GoF) Ah, but you are clearly not a sports fan. One of the joys of the Muggle World Cup (football/soccer) is that one develops a passionate rooting interest in Cameroon for two weeks of one's life. (Me, I go for the Latin American teams . . . but I digress.) Also, look at it from the British characters' point of view: it could have been Uganda vs. Transylvania. England, Scotland, and Wales went down in flames, but at least their part of the world is being represented in the final by Ireland. Most of the time the final involves two countries you couldn't care less about. None of the other things you listed made me roll my eyes (add me to the list of house-elf fans), nor did Harry's "you're mad" line. But this exchange makes me cringe: "I assume that's why you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually over Pettigrew's head. "Forgive me, Remus," said Black. "Not at all, Padfoot, old friend," said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. "And will you, in turn, forgive me for believing *you* were the spy?" "Of course," said Black . . . I may be way too forgiving, but the Evil Overlord Idiocy didn't bother me in the matter of untying Harry and giving him his wand. Voldemort knows the same thing Harry does: there is nothing Harry could have learned that would protect him against Avada Kedavra. He gets away by a million-to-one chance. I also think it's psychologically realistic that V would call off the DEs even as Harry was getting away. Kelly, the brooms-in-the-key-room made me roll my eyes, but we discussed it on the list a few months ago and I've been won over to believing that neither JKR nor Flitwick is being stupid. Check it out and see what you think; the thread begins with message #19092. However, I agree that Crouch Jr. really needs to read the E.O. Handbook. CMC wrote: > That's just a difference between books and real life - the reader > must be informed at some point as to what is going on, and who better > to inform him than the evil agent actually manipulating the plot? and > what better time than at the moment of maximum suspense? In real > life terms, this may ridiculous - it would be like John Wilkes Booth > giving Lincoln an explanation of why he was about to be assasinated- He did, but he kept it to three words. Amy "Did someone call me schnorrer?" Z --------------------------------------------- Professor Trelawney kept predicting Harry's death, which he found extremely annoying. -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------- From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 22 10:47:31 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:47:31 -0000 Subject: Sketch Topic: Travel/Transportation Message-ID: <9m02k4+60v4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24684 This week's topic concerns methods of travel in the Potter universe. I'm giving a quick overview, rather than trying to create something all-emcompassing, as there have been a number of threads on the list about various aspects of methods of transportation - the Hogwarts Express, the Knight Bus - so hopefully, this summary won't bore people to tears! Any page numbers refer to the US editions. Travel and Transportation: How do people get from Point A to Point B in the Wizard World? Transportation methods can be broadly categorized: A. Use of Magical Vehicles - the Knight Bus, the Hogwarts Express, MoM cars, the boats and horseless carriages at Hogwarts, the Gringotts carts, the Beauxbatons flying carriage complete with giant flying horses, and the Durmstrang ship that rises up from the lake at Hogwarts. These vehicles go where they are supposed to go, without apparently receiveing much steering from anyone. The Gringotts carts just go "at one speed only" - very fast (SS p. 75). The Hogwarts' boats and carriages move of their own accord to bring the students to their proper destinations, and Ernie Prang, the Knight Bus driver, makes sure somehow that the Bus BANGs from one geographic location to another, but he's not actually driving in the way we Muggles understand the concept. The Ministry of Magic cars (PoA p. 71) have drivers, but it's not clear from canon if the drivers are engaged in the act of driving as we know it. Remus Lupin says he must speak to the driver of the Hogwarts Express, after the Dementor had made an appearance (PoA p. 85). "Driver" seems to be an odd job description for a person running a train on a set of tracks. How do these vehicles work? I agree with what others on this list have posted, and with the overview on Transportation on the Harry Potter Lexicon - that magic vehicles share similarities of appearance with Muggle devices, but they run by magic. B. Use of Enchanted Muggle Vehicles - Sirius' motorbike(?), Flying Ford Anglia Whenever Sirius' motorbike is mentioned (SS p. 14, PoA p 206), no one actually comments that it's a Muggle vehicle that's been tampered with to make it able to fly. I'm making the assumption that that is indeed the case. The only other flying vehicle with a motor that we've seen is the Ford Anglia, which Arthur Weasley tells us has been enchanted. These are clear examples of misuse of Muggle artifacts and are not approved of by the Ministry of Magic. I'd like to think that there is an entire sub-culture of witches and wizards out there who have figured out how to use various charms and spells to make Muggle vehicles fly, make them invisible, and endow them with other magical properties, such as being able to expand their dimensions when needed. (CoS p. 66). This is another reason why I think Sirius' motorbike has been converted. The size of the bike needed by a grown wizard is probably still too small for a giant like Hagrid to use. I think the bike also has the expandable-dimension property. C. Direct Transport of One's Body - Apparition, Floo Powder, Portkeys The methods of direct transport are all regulated in some way by the MoM. Apparition (GoF p. 66+) is difficult magic. Wizards must pass a test to earn an apparition license. If done incorrectly, one might not get all of one's body parts to arrive at the same destination at the same time, thus splinching oneself. The Floo Network allows travel via fireplaces which are connected to the Network. Even Muggle fireplaces can be temporarily connected to the Network, although according to Arthur Weasley, they shouldn't be. (GoF p 45). Portkeys (GoF p. 70,73,635) are innocuous objects that are charmed so that when touched, people will be transported from one precise location to another at a prearranged time. It is very useful for transporting groups of people at the same time, and it also provides a way for those who can't Apparate to get to a destination quickly. Since Harry cannot yet Apparate, we have not been given a sense of how it feels. Travel by the Floo Network and by Portkey have the potential to be somewhat dirorienting for the traveler. Plus, when Flooing, one runs the risk of falling out of the wrong fireplace. D. Other - brooms, animals Brooms are a preferred method of travel by many witches and wizards (GoF p 67). Although slower than Apparition and Floo, there is not risk of injuring oneself, unless one is careless enough to fly smack into a tree or a building. Traveling by broom also allows the rider to get where (s)he wants to go, without the chance of ending up at the wrong location, which is possible when using the Floo Network. There are a number of fantastic beasts with wings - hippogriffs, dragons and some breeds of horses. We've seen the hippogriff Buckbeak used for transportation, and the flying horses pulling the Beauxbatons' carriage. However, it doesn't seem that animals play a big part in providing transport in the magical world. Questions: 1. What is the fascination with bright colors for Wizard vehicles - the scarlet Express, the violently purple Knight Bus, the powder blue Beauxbatons carriage? Is this simply a method JKR uses to make us look at common Muggle vehicles in a different light? 2. Does the Beauxbatons' carriage need to be pulled by Abraxan (FB), the giant, palomino, winged horses? Or are the horses used merely to give a more impressive appearance to the carriage? 3. Why does the Durmstrang boat rise up from the bottom of the lake at Hogwarts? Is there some sort of watery network that allows boats to submerge in one body of water and emerge in another - sort of a Floo Network for ships? 4. What is the power source for enchanted Muggle vehicles? Is it simply a spell that enables the vehicle to act in magical ways? 5. The Ford Anglia lost power as Ron drove it towards Hogwarts, yet later in the book it is careening around the Forbidden Forest. How did it rejuevenate itself? (Chap 15, CoS) 6. Did the pre-Azkaban Sirius have a problem with Apparating? We know he used his motorbike to get to the Potters' house the night they died. Wouldn't Apparition have been quicker? 7. As Hermione repeatedly tells us, you can't Apparate into Hogwarts. Can anyone, perhaps the Headmaster, lift whatever charms, wards, spells, etc., that exist that prevent (Dis)Apparition? 8. Could fireplaces in Hogwarts be hooked up to the Floo Network? 9. Can wizards make themselves invisible when flying on brooms so that Muggles won't notice them should they be flying in daylight? OTOH, since we don't notice the Knight Bus, maybe we're too involved in our mundane world to look up and see someone in emerald green robes zooming across the sky. 10. Do you think flying horses are used in some sort of aerial equestrian sport? 11. Do Charlie Weasly and Hagrid wish they could ride dragons? 12. What would your favorite method of travel be? Marianne, who must now Apparate to work... From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 08:37:00 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24685 >One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP > books is that it is > devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero > sexual innuendo I have two points to make in respect of the above statement, namely: "practising inappropriate charms on a goat" and "Ooh Lavender, may I look at Uranus". If these comments represent absolutely zero sexual innuendo I shall be interested to see what Ms Rowling feels appropriate as her characters age and she feels it appropriate to be slightly franker. Susan From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Aug 22 11:39:59 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:39:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Black vs. Pettigrew: Why was Black Laughing? In-Reply-To: <9ltpjo+jrcd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010822113959.77511.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24686 --- cynthiaanncoe at home.com ha scritto:
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SoSilently at aol.com Wed Aug 22 11:40:44 2001 From: SoSilently at aol.com (SoSilently at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:40:44 EDT Subject: Innocence - Eye Rolls Message-ID: <59.f06dd9c.28b4f43c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24687 "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" , writes: > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP > books is that it is devoid of any lurid details and > has absolutely zero sexual innuendo or encounters. Actually, speaking of eye-rollers, one of my biggies was the "They don't make them like that at Hogwarts!" exchange in GoF, ch.16. It's not lurid, but I do think it qualifies as innuendo. ;) I thought the line came off sounding forced, but I might just be sympathizing with Hermione a bit too much. Also, I don't have my book on hand, but I seem to remember a rather underhanded little sentence in PoA about some dwarves comparing the sizes of their clubs. My sisters sailed right past that one, but I had a good laugh! "aiz24 at hotmail.com" (Amy Z) writes: >But this exchange makes me cringe: >"I assume that's why you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually >over Pettigrew's head. (snip) Yes! I love PoA, but that exchange really bothered me as well. I can understand using the "casualness" to emphasize the fact that they're back on the same side, but at the same time, IMHO, that casualness undermined the importance of the exchange. Just before Voldemort's downfall, Sirius and James had truly suspected Lupin of betraying them. That seems (to me) like a potentially important detail, but it is brushed aside with relatively little fanfare. JKR might not go anywhere with it, but I'm still curious as to how that previous suspicion might affect the issues of trust that are undoubtedly going to surface as the new war begins. Or is it more a case of "war is hell - trust no one" and no hard feelings when it's done? Also - all that said - the exchange had a weird vibe that kept making me think of 'The Great Gatsby' and all that "dear old chap" stuff. ;) --chloe From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Wed Aug 22 11:44:22 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:44:22 +0100 Subject: Info on TV shows Message-ID: <000701c12aff$cc961720$2540063e@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 24688 For information related to the HP-related TV shows being shown on terrestrial TV in the UK this Sunday, go to WWW.channel5.co.uk. Michelle From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Wed Aug 22 12:26:40 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:26:40 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens - Literature and Children... In-Reply-To: <20010821.130447.-330527.0.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9m08e0+j7sh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24689 "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP books is that > it is devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero sexual > innuendo or encounters. It makes it appropriate for children to read as well. Some comments on part of this (perhaps?) in an interview with Philip Pullman which can be read on http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,540483,00.html Pullman admires JK Rowling: "She's enormously inventive, and doing a tremendous thing: bringing notice to children's literature." In the US Pullman's His Dark Materials triology is marketed for adults In Britain: >>>the trilogy is directed at ages 12 and above. This makes more sense: one of Pullman's main objectives in The Amber Spyglass is to celebrate the approach of adolescence. He despises the "ghastly sentimentality" he finds in most children's literature; the children Pullman depicts are fierce, brave and intelligent, liars, fighters and even - unwillingly - killers. What separates them from adults is self-awareness, nothing more. "Traditionally, children are seen as beautiful, innocent beings; then comes adulthood and they become corrupt. That's the CS Lewis view," he argues. "My view is that the coming of experience and sexuality and self-consciousness is a thing to be welcomed, because it's the beginning of true understanding, of wisdom. My book tells children that you're going to grow up and it's going to be painful but it's going to be good too." <<< Actually I suspect JKR thinks something similar about growing up. Edis From AAA143 at aol.com Wed Aug 22 13:12:28 2001 From: AAA143 at aol.com (AAA143 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:12:28 EDT Subject: HP On-line wanna be's? Message-ID: <35.19af6e11.28b509bc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24690 Hey, all. I'm new to the list and probably won't stick around simply because the volume of mail is too much. I just finished the 4th book. Is any body / any group of people, writing a book on-line? Paul From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 13:32:37 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:32:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <9lnhoa+serj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m0c9l+6v3k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24691 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rth_adidas at h... wrote: I began to wonder does Harry > also have a godmother because most people will have a godfather and > godmother. After GoF I came up with the idea that Arabella Figg was > Harry's godmother butDumbledore decided that Harry needed to get away > from the wizarding world as stated in SS/PS. Good one! I never really thought about his Godmother (how awful of me!) I'll bet it isn't Arabella, though. Since Sirius is Harry's godfather, I'd assume that someone who is approx. the same age as Harry's parents is Harry's godmother. Or, perhaps, could it be one of the female Hogwarts professors? McGonagall took a very active part (with Dumbledore) in placing baby Harry with the Dursley's...? From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Wed Aug 22 13:34:47 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:34:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eye Roll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24692 >From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com > > > Amber said: > > > > > My biggest eye roll? At this exact line in GOF 33, pg658 USed: > > > "Now untie him, Wormtail, and give him back his wand." > >Well, I think it had to happen. Voldemort HAD to give Harry his wand >back. Why? > >Because these guys have been living free of Voldemort for thirteen >years. They've gone on with their lives. Voldemort was a bad dream >for at least some of them. Now he's back. He has GOT to show he is >in control. He cannot show it by simply snuffing out Harry. What >does that prove? Nothing. And on some level, I do agree with you. As I said before in my post, I see the logic in this. But the part still made me roll my eyes and internally rage at Voldemort for making such a stupid mistake. I look at all the planning that went into capturing Harry. Mad-Eye Moody being subdued, a *heck* of a lot of Polyjuice being made, Crouch managing to fool everyone into believing he's Mad-Eye, the adding of Harry's name to the Goblet, *months* of waiting until the Third Task, helping Harry to make sure he does all right in the tournament, adding the spell that made the Triwizard Cup a portkey, and making sure that Harry isn't killed in the maze. I mean, seriously, a lot of thought and effort went into making sure everything went perfectly. The end result of it was to resurrect Voldemort and presumably kill Harry. And instead of quickly killing him and getting on with the whole "Taking Over The World" bit (I'm assuming that this is Voldemort's goal), he decides that he needs to "impress" his followers. He threw away all that planning and work. Incredibly shortsighted in my opinion. If Voldemort was smart, he would've thought back to the times that he's been thwarted by Harry. He would've thought "This kid had unbelievable luck when it comes to me, I'm not taking any chances". If he had time to plan a way to bring Harry to him, he had time to think about how he was going to kill Harry. The goal is "get all the opposition out of the way", not "impress my followers". If Voldemort really is such a powerful wizard and no one is equal to him other than Voldemort, he doesn't NEED to worry about impressing his followers. He shouldn't feel the need to prove anything. And if he does, well it's a serious character flaw for an Evil Dark Lord. Evil Dark Lords shouldn't care what others think of them, even what their followers think of them in my opinion. Perhaps Voldemort isn't as powerful as everyone thinks he is? How about this for another stupid mistake. Instead of destroying the portkey after Harry arrives, it is left where Harry can get to it again. Tchah. Somebody should've either 1)Destroyed it or 2)Nullified it so it couldn't be used as a portkey any longer. I hope Wormtail got a good yelling at later... I do realize that Voldemort is not perfect. He has to make mistakes, fatal mistakes that bring about his downfall. However, I just don't like it when Villains make ridiculous mistakes. And untying Harry and giving his wand back was a ridiculous mistake in my mind. If Voldemort makes any others in the next books, I'll be quite upset. Forgive me for being all passionate about this. I'm perhaps one of the few people who did NOT find the ending of GOF chilling at all; I found it somewhat hokey. *grin* Eh, well, such is life... ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Updated 8/17/01 "...Afraid of change, afraid of staying the same When temptation calls, we just look away..." - Barenaked Ladies, "What A Good Boy" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Wed Aug 22 13:32:36 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:32:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sketch Topic: Travel/Transportation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24693 > -----Original Message----- > From: Zarleycat at aol.com [mailto:Zarleycat at aol.com] > Questions: > > 2. Does the Beauxbatons' carriage need to be pulled by Abraxan (FB), > the giant, palomino, winged horses? Or are the horses used merely to > give a more impressive appearance to the carriage? I actually wasn't sure if they were pulling it or driving it - in other words, did the Abraxan know where to go? And the flip side of this is - anyone ever tried to get a Hippogryff to pull something? > 4. What is the power source for enchanted Muggle vehicles? Is it > simply a spell that enables the vehicle to act in magical ways? It's probably the same genre of spell that makes brooms fly. Or so I've assumed. > > 5. The Ford Anglia lost power as Ron drove it towards Hogwarts, yet > later in the book it is careening around the Forbidden Forest. How > did it rejuevenate itself? (Chap 15, CoS) It didn't lose power per se, I think - it was just really tired from such a long trip in the hot sun. At least when it went to Privet Drive, it was evening, and therefore not as warm. > > 6. Did the pre-Azkaban Sirius have a problem with Apparating? We know > he used his motorbike to get to the Potters' house the night they > died. Wouldn't Apparition have been quicker? I know a lot of people have proposed that there was an anti-apparating ward around the Potter home - perhaps all wizarding homes have it, so they only allow the residents of that house to apparate in (although it might not be as restrictive on apparating out). If that was the case, it might've been quicker for Siris to fly there instead of apparating nearby & walking. > > 8. Could fireplaces in Hogwarts be hooked up to the Floo Network? They seem to be, because the Floo network seems to be connected to the thing that allows people's heads to appear in fireplaces, and in book 4, sirius talked to harry in just that way. > > 9. Can wizards make themselves invisible when flying on brooms so > that Muggles won't notice them should they be flying in daylight? > OTOH, since we don't notice the Knight Bus, maybe we're too involved > in our mundane world to look up and see someone in emerald green > robes zooming across the sky. We just don't notice. > > 10. Do you think flying horses are used in some sort of aerial > equestrian sport? Oh, I hope so! I've been working on a version of Pegasus Polo (named after the Abraxan belonging to the inventor of the game) which is played regularly along the mediterranean. It must be terrific fun (and explains the bitter expression found on Prince Charles's face with some regularity) > > 11. Do Charlie Weasly and Hagrid wish they could ride dragons? Oh yes! > > 12. What would your favorite method of travel be? Flying eggplant :P From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 13:42:37 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:42:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <9m0c9l+6v3k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m0csd+8h3l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24694 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > Good one! I never really thought about his Godmother (how awful of > me!) I'll bet it isn't Arabella, though. Since Sirius is Harry's > godfather, I'd assume that someone who is approx. the same age as > Harry's parents is Harry's godmother. Or, perhaps, could it be one > of the female Hogwarts professors? McGonagall took a very active > part (with Dumbledore) in placing baby Harry with the Dursley's...? Oooooooohhh.. the fanfic possibilities! I suspect that if Harry had a Godmother, and I think he would have, she would be someone from James and Lily's circle of peers. I would expect that if Sirius had a significant other, she would be the logical choice. Sirius was James's best friend from school. Who was Lily's best friend? That would be the next logical choice, wouldn't it, if Sirius was resoutely single? Would it not be odd for her to have simply vanished? Perhaps she was kiled by V. Or perhaps she will appear later. Or perhaps.... Harry has two Godfathers and everyone is being rather discreet about this, since it is after all a children's book. *smirk* Or perhaps the Potters defied convention and gave Harry only one Godfather. But how odd that would be! --Suzanne, developing many theories about Sirius from this. From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Aug 22 14:12:42 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:12:42 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <20010822081018.64918.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9m0ekq+d02q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24695 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne Schmid wrote: > --- Alfredo_Ram?rez ha scritto: > > On the other hand I don't see why > there shouldn't be hints at what's going on behind the > bushes or wherever ... look at how she brought death and torture > into Harry's innocent child's world, why shouldn't she manage to > introduce sex into his teenage- world? > Because sex is not important to the plot! From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 14:15:44 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:15:44 -0000 Subject: Volde's Mistakes (Was: Eye Roll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m0eqg+td5r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24696 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > > I do realize that Voldemort is not perfect. He has to make mistakes, fatal > mistakes that bring about his downfall. However, I just don't like it when > Villains make ridiculous mistakes. And untying Harry and giving his wand > back was a ridiculous mistake in my mind. If Voldemort makes any others in > the next books, I'll be quite upset. You are right. He HAS made quite a few dumb mistakes, but you know what? I think that is on purpose. I think it is vital to the picture that JKR is painting for him to make mistake after mistake. Look at all the "Oh gee's". "Oh gee, I forgot about a mother's love. Oh gee, I forgot about a mother's love, AGAIN! Oh gee, I forgot about a phoenix's tears. Oh gee, I forgot about the priori incantum. Oh gee, ..." Voldemort has built up this big legend amongst the wizarding population about being this super smart and powerful dude, and all along he is litle more than a thug with perhaps better than average talent. Sooner or later some of his DE's are going to notice this, I would think. I don't think it's accidental. Marcus From hettick.1 at osu.edu Wed Aug 22 14:31:44 2001 From: hettick.1 at osu.edu (Heather Hettick) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:31:44 -0400 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <998422151.5790.90734.l8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24697 Mandy wrote: <> I agree, not only as a story for children to read but for myself as well. I think sex is often overdone as a part of popular entertainment these days and is rarely that relevant to the plot of a story - or even more so in movies. I'm certainly not a prude but just prefer things like that left to my own imagination. Some things I'd rather do than just read about/watch, but to each his own. I really do like JKR's handling of the teenaged characters so far in the books though and expect her to probably go a little further in coming books, although I'm hoping she keeps up the "innocent" feel to the relationships. I have looked at some fanfic and find it vaguely interesting to see other's ideas about the characters, but I still prefer canon. Barb wrote: <> That's funny, because I'd rather my daughter think a bitch is a female dog than a derogatory word. Of course, I've bred and shown dogs in the past, so I have been in a position where it makes more sense to use the proper word rather than talking about the boy-dogs (redundant, by the way) and girl-dogs. Of course, I have had to explain to most of my co-workers why I'm so proud of my purple ribbons for "Winners Bitch," but education is a good thing, and they got used to it. At least now I work at an agricultural school where it isn't such a big deal. HMM Hettick From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 22 14:29:28 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:29:28 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m0fk8+6ke0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24698 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > > >From: prefectmarcus at y... > > > > > Amber said: > > > > > > > My biggest eye roll? At this exact line in GOF 33, pg658 USed: > > > > "Now untie him, Wormtail, and give him back his wand." > > > >Well, I think it had to happen. Voldemort HAD to give Harry his wand > >back. Why? > > > >Because these guys have been living free of Voldemort for thirteen > >years. They've gone on with their lives. Voldemort was a bad dream > >for at least some of them. Now he's back. He has GOT to show he is > >in control. He cannot show it by simply snuffing out Harry. What > >does that prove? Nothing. > > And on some level, I do agree with you. As I said before in my post, I see > the logic in this. But the part still made me roll my eyes and internally > rage at Voldemort for making such a stupid mistake. > > I look at all the planning that went into capturing Harry. Mad-Eye Moody > being subdued, a *heck* of a lot of Polyjuice being made, Crouch managing to > fool everyone into believing he's Mad-Eye, the adding of Harry's name to the > Goblet, *months* of waiting until the Third Task, helping Harry to make sure > he does all right in the tournament, adding the spell that made the > Triwizard Cup a portkey, and making sure that Harry isn't killed in the > maze. I mean, seriously, a lot of thought and effort went into making sure > everything went perfectly. The end result of it was to resurrect Voldemort > and presumably kill Harry. And instead of quickly killing him and getting on > with the whole "Taking Over The World" bit (I'm assuming that this is > Voldemort's goal), he decides that he needs to "impress" his followers. He > threw away all that planning and work. Incredibly shortsighted in my > opinion. > > If Voldemort was smart, he would've thought back to the times that he's been > thwarted by Harry. He would've thought "This kid had unbelievable luck when > it comes to me, I'm not taking any chances". If he had time to plan a way to > bring Harry to him, he had time to think about how he was going to kill > Harry. The goal is "get all the opposition out of the way", not "impress my > followers". > > If Voldemort really is such a powerful wizard and no one is equal to him > other than Voldemort, he doesn't NEED to worry about impressing his > followers. He shouldn't feel the need to prove anything. And if he does, > well it's a serious character flaw for an Evil Dark Lord. Evil Dark Lords > shouldn't care what others think of them, even what their followers think of > them in my opinion. Perhaps Voldemort isn't as powerful as everyone thinks > he is? > > How about this for another stupid mistake. Instead of destroying the portkey > after Harry arrives, it is left where Harry can get to it again. Tchah. > Somebody should've either 1)Destroyed it or 2)Nullified it so it couldn't be > used as a portkey any longer. I hope Wormtail got a good yelling at later... > > I do realize that Voldemort is not perfect. He has to make mistakes, fatal > mistakes that bring about his downfall. However, I just don't like it when > Villains make ridiculous mistakes. And untying Harry and giving his wand > back was a ridiculous mistake in my mind. If Voldemort makes any others in > the next books, I'll be quite upset. > > Forgive me for being all passionate about this. I'm perhaps one of the few > people who did NOT find the ending of GOF chilling at all; I found it > somewhat hokey. *grin* Eh, well, such is life... > > ~Amber > You make some good points. But the "Untie him" and subsequent duel worked very well for me, and I consider the line "Untie him and give him his wand" a really chilling one. Imagine that you are a powerful wizard, but you were defeated by a toddler. Everyone knows it; how embarrassing! Indeed, it turns out Voldemort "needs" Harry to get his body back. Even more emasculating. Of course you need to prove that you're as powerful as you are supposed to be (particularly since an evil Dark Wizard always has to fear assasination from his own evil supporters). Moreover, what kind of coward do you have to be to kill someone in cold blood while they are unarmed and tied up? No, you have to do this thing with some style. So you do what Wizards do -- a duel. But compare what Voldemort knows and what he doesn't know. You have no chance of losing to a kid, you have no reason to think he can do anything for himself with mom and Dumbledore, you don't know Harry's wand shares a core with yours, and you don't know the portkey still works (remember that Moody bewitched it, but Voldemort has no reason to think it's a Round Trip ticket). You have 30 DEs to back you up. So you have a little fun first. Also, Voldemort cares plenty what his supporters think. Why torture Wormtail and Avery? To impress the DEs with his power. In the graveyard, Voldemort needs to make the sale to his own supporters -- he's back, and his powers haven't been diminished by lacking a body. Finally, what else is JKR to do here? Harry is tied up and unarmed, and we need him to survive. There's no other good solution that comes to mind (other than something really clumsy like having Wormtail have a change of heart and rescue Harry -- Ack!). Anyway, I hope I've helped with this, because I agree that if the graveyard scene doesn't work for you, then you've read 500+ pages without a payoff, and that's no fun. Cindy > ******** > http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com > Updated 8/17/01 > > "...Afraid of change, afraid of staying the same > When temptation calls, we just look away..." > - Barenaked Ladies, "What A Good Boy" > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From kira at kc.rr.com Wed Aug 22 14:27:59 2001 From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:27:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's escape from the graveyard References: <9lupog+106ar@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00d401c12b16$f5f60320$a473f2d1@lisaannc> No: HPFGUIDX 24699 I look at it like this. Harry was not rolled over Cedric but away from him so that his arm with the hand holding Cedric's wrist was now laying across his own body. Any help? ----- Original Message ----- From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 6:10 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's escape from the graveyard More troubling to me is the movement when Harry is on the ground. He is probably still holding Cedric's wrist (with a tight grip), and he is face-down. Dumbledore turns Harry over, yet Harry still manages to hang onto Cedric's wrist. Hmmmm. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 22 14:45:52 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:45:52 -0000 Subject: Evil Overlord Scorecard Message-ID: <9m0gj0+b1d6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24700 Although I am sure that this subject has been discussed a lot, I would give JKR an A- on handling the evil overlord problem inherent in the plots of her books. In Book 1, Voldemort spills his guts before attacking Harry, but it works because he is more pre-occupied with getting the stone, so killing Harry without some chit-chat wouldn't accomplish it. B+ In Book 2, Voldemort/Riddle shows himself to be really dumb, and is explaining the whole plot to Harry in the Chamber for no apparent reason. C In Book 3, no Voldemort, but we have the fabulous chapters in the Shrieking Shack in which Lupin and Black talk endlessly about the plot to make it all add up. Works very well, because they are trying to convince Harry to believe them. Note that Pettigrew doesn't burst forth with explanations, but snivels them out on cross-examination. Very effective. A+ In Book 4, we have three evil overlord sequences. First, in the graveyard, Voldemort needs to prove his power to his supporters, and it would be too weird for all of the DEs to apparate to the graveyard and not ask the obvious question "Where have you been and what took you so long?" Second, we have the more unfortunate Mad-Eye Moody confession/explanation -- a classic villian who is really screwing up. Failing to kill Harry right away. No really good reason to be saying all of this as Harry has no need to know any of it. Failing to watch the door. Going back to his office where Dumbledore could find him. Third, we have the Truth Serum sequence, which is fine. The Graveyard gets an A, the Mad-Eye Moody sequence would get a D, but I'll raise it to a B to reflect the degree of difficulty of finding another way to do the scene, and the Truth Serum gets an A. From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 14:51:10 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:51:10 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <9m0ekq+d02q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m0gsu+6g9v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24701 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > Because sex is not important to the plot! Well, one could say the Quidditch is not important to the plot if you want to be really extreme. So whaddya say we cut out EVERYTHING that is not directly related to the main conflict. Now! And stop smiling! It might not be important to the main plot, but sexual feelings and romantic longings are both important to the emotional depth and growth of the characters. Let's think about all the myriad of reasons why we like Harry Potter: I think an essential reason is simply that we LIKE the characters. They are real and down-to-earth. They have turbulent emotions just as we have. There are already plenty of romantic subplots at work in JKR's books, and like it or not, the characters are growing up and experiencing all kinds of feelings, including sexual ones. What was the point of the Yule Ball after all? JKR's treatment of these subplots runs from the serious to the humorous, and it is all important. It doesn't have to be graphic or "lurid" to be there. --Suzanne From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Aug 22 14:53:06 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:53:06 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m0h0i+83kg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24702 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > >From: prefectmarcus at y... > > Amber said: > > > > > > > My biggest eye roll? At this exact line in GOF 33, pg658 USed: > > > > "Now untie him, Wormtail, and give him back his wand." >And instead of quickly killing him and getting on with the >whole "Taking Over The World" bit (I'm assuming that this is >Voldemort's goal), he decides that he needs to "impress" his >followers. He threw away all that planning and work. Incredibly >shortsighted in my opinion. Voldemort, like other megalomaniacs, is less concerned with actually taking over the world than with being revered by it, albeit revered for the cruelty he is capable of dishing out. Remember from CS, Tom Riddle devised the anagram Voldemeort to be a name that "wizards would fear". His primary motivation is what others think of him. >The goal is "get all the opposition out of the way", not "impress my >followers". He shouldn't feel the need to prove anything. And if >he does, well it's a serious character flaw for an Evil Dark Lord. >Evil Dark Lords shouldn't care what others think of them, The very problem with Evil Dark Lords is that they are vain, narrow minded, prideful, self indulgent and have a sizable blind spot. Why? because their ascendence is built on a lie that they tell themselves every day, namely, that the world deserves whatever the EDL is doing to it, that the EDL is worthy of everyones adulation, etc. That is all that most evil people think about, particularly the one's who suffer from the evil of pride or arrogance. > How about this for another stupid mistake. Instead of destroying >the portkey after Harry arrives, it is left where Harry can get to >it again. Tchah. Somebody should've either 1)Destroyed it or 2) >Nullified it so it couldn't be used as a portkey any longer. I hope >Wormtail got a good yelling at later... Brilliant conjecture has been made on several HP fan sites that Voldemort intended to use the portkey to return to Hogwarts with his Death Eaters and the dead Harry Potter, and attack Dumbledore and company by surprise. Remember, you cannot apparate into Hogwarts, and it has other divers protections. What a coup it would have been. > I do realize that Voldemort is not perfect. He has to make >mistakes, fatal mistakes that bring about his downfall. However, I >just don't like it when Villains make ridiculous mistakes. And >untying Harry and giving his wand back was a ridiculous mistake in >my mind. If villains, whether real or imagined, did not make ridiculous mistakes, we good guys could never beat them. They are invariably more focused on doing evil than the rest of the world is on doing good; they plan meticulously, conserve resources, and exact discipline among their troops for years. Good guys generally do these things only in the face of the danger realized. They depend on luck (HP), God's will (henry V), good fortune (LOTR), human nature (Holmes), etc. to fill in the gaps of their unpreparedness. Believing that one's cause is "just" is evidently worth two or three armies. Bad guys, OTOH, believe that they are capable of figuring every possibility themselves. It is a damnable arrogance, and the heart of every plan to defeat them. If Voldemort were actually as great as he thinks he is, there would not be a story, because Harry would be dead. 4FR From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 22 14:58:58 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:58:58 -0000 Subject: Re-writing Mad-Eye's Confession Message-ID: <9m0hbi+d319@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24703 Now and then, I wonder if there is a better way to handle Mad-Eye's confession to Harry before Mad-Eye tries to kill Harry. As it stands, it is a classic Blundering-Villian-Who-Talks-Too-Much Scene. But what else would work? I haven't been able to think up anything better. Mad-Eye needs to confirm that Voldemort is back, kill Harry, and get away without apparating. So maybe he takes Harry to his office, revives and interrogates him, stuns him, picks him up and walks out with both of them under Mad-Eye's invisibility cloak? I haven't figured out how Dumbledore would rescue Harry, though. The details of how Mad-Eye worked for Voldemort could be done with Truth Serum. Anyway, I find the scene an intriguing challenge because it's hard to think of anything that works better. From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 15:01:11 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's escape from the graveyard In-Reply-To: <00d401c12b16$f5f60320$a473f2d1@lisaannc> Message-ID: <20010822150111.30851.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24704 --- Lisa-Ann Cooner wrote: > I look at it like this. Harry was not rolled over > Cedric but away from him so that his arm with the > hand holding Cedric's wrist was now laying across > his own body. > > Any help? > I saw it happening this way: Harry dove and grabbed Cedric's right wrist (if they were oriented the same way) with his left hand. He used his right to Accio the portkey and catch it. He lands on his stomach with the hand holding on to Cedric under him. Dumbledore rolls Harry to his right so that his arm is straight out and still holding on to Cedric's wrist. ~Bethany __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 22 15:04:10 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:04:10 -0000 Subject: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <9m0csd+8h3l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m0hla+tlo9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24705 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > > > Good one! I never really thought about his Godmother (how awful of > > me!) I'll bet it isn't Arabella, though. Since Sirius is Harry's > > godfather, I'd assume that someone who is approx. the same age as > > Harry's parents is Harry's godmother. Or, perhaps, could it be one > > of the female Hogwarts professors? McGonagall took a very active > > part (with Dumbledore) in placing baby Harry with the Dursley's...? > > > Oooooooohhh.. the fanfic possibilities! > > I suspect that if Harry had a Godmother, and I think he would have, > she would be someone from James and Lily's circle of peers. I would > expect that if Sirius had a significant other, she would be the > logical choice. > > Sirius was James's best friend from school. Who was Lily's best > friend? That would be the next logical choice, wouldn't it, if Sirius > was resoutely single? > > Would it not be odd for her to have simply vanished? Perhaps she was > kiled by V. Or perhaps she will appear later. > > Or perhaps.... Harry has two Godfathers and everyone is being rather > discreet about this, since it is after all a children's book. *smirk* > > Or perhaps the Potters defied convention and gave Harry only one > Godfather. But how odd that would be! > > > --Suzanne, developing many theories about Sirius from this. My theory is that Harry's godmother is the next DADA teacher -- Mrs. Figg. Makes sense. I've heard the next DADA teacher is a woman, and Mrs. Figg has certainly been acting in a protective capacity toward Harry for years. She obviously knows DADA if she has protected Harry at the Dursleys. I think Mrs. Figg will be central to Book 5. We'll see. Cindy From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Aug 22 15:16:33 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:16:33 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <9m0gsu+6g9v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m0ich+g92m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24706 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > > > Because sex is not important to the plot! > > Well, one could say the Quidditch is not important to the plot if you > want to be really extreme. {snip}And stop smiling! Naturally, quidditch is central to the plot, as it defines much of the divergence between the muggle world an that of the wizards. Sex and lust OTOH, are not central because they are so common to our world and our entertainment media. > It might not be important to the main plot, but sexual feelings and > romantic longings are both important to the emotional depth and > growth of the characters. {snip} They are real and down-to-earth. > They have turbulent emotions just as we have. > > There are already plenty of romantic subplots at work in JKR's > books, and like it or not, the characters are growing up and >experiencing all kinds of feelings, including sexual ones. What was >the point of the Yule Ball after all? JKR's treatment of these >subplots runs from the serious to the humorous, and it is all >important. It doesn't have to be graphic or "lurid" to be there. We are very close to agreement. All I am asking is that we distinguish between romantic inclinations that are natural to the growth of the characters, and explicitly contrived plot devices that explore sexuality without adding anything to the central issue: the battle between good and evil. An excellent post suggested that a second theme is the loss of innocense, and I certainly see the progression of danger and of emotion from book to book. I even expect that there will be some increase in shippiness, with RH strongly hinted at by JKR, and other possibilities. But those involvements will be consistent with the growth of the central characters. If you can't help but be friends as a result of defeating a 12 foot troll, someone is certainly going to get married after helping to defeat an Evil Overlord out to destroy the world. But I do not need to know the particulars of the wedding night, nor do whether or not they "did it" before their wedding night, nor whether they had to face "yearnings" inconsistent with biological reproduction. I can turn on the TV if I want titillation. I do not want to know about the lust of these underage heroes. All I care about is whether they survive, and how the experience affects their commitment to the values that Dumbledore is trying to teach them. 4FR (resistant to the R-ratinazation and McDonaldizing of the world.) From rmatovic at ssk.com Wed Aug 22 16:49:05 2001 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:49:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <9lnhoa+serj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m0nq1+kc23@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24707 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rth_adidas at h... wrote: > After reading PoA for the second time I began to wonder does Harry > also have a godmother because most people will have a godfather and > godmother. But a lot of Harry's world is a mildly transfigured version of English life and typically in the Church of England there is one godparent of the same sex as the child. Rebecca From klhurt at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 17:19:11 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <9m0csd+8h3l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010822171911.96529.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24708 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: >Good one! I never really thought >about his Godmother (how awful of me!) >I'll bet it isn't Arabella, though. >Since Sirius is Harry's godfather, I'd >assume that someone who is approx. the >same age as Harry's parents is Harry's >godmother. Arabella Figg could easily be the same age as James & Lily but lives as harmless, eccentric, OLD Mrs. Figg to throw off suspicion. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 17:27:06 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:27:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <9m0nq1+kc23@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m0q1a+lru1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24709 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rebecca M" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rth_adidas at h... wrote: > > > After reading PoA for the second time I began to wonder does Harry > > also have a godmother because most people will have a godfather and > > godmother. > > But a lot of Harry's world is a mildly transfigured version of English > life and typically in the Church of England there is one godparent of > the same sex as the child. > > Rebecca This is very informative and would explian everything. I guess I was looking at it through my own Italian-Catholic two-godparents-and-lots- of-fanfare lens. Though I still like the idea of Harry having two godfathers. *grinz* Thanks Rebecca! From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Aug 22 17:32:16 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:32:16 -0500 Subject: Sex and the Plot -- Godparents References: <9m0ich+g92m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B83ECA0.5010901@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24710 Hi everyone -- fourfuries at aol.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > > > > > Because sex is not important to the plot! > > > > Well, one could say the Quidditch is not important to the plot if > you want to be really extreme. {snip}And stop smiling! Well, my first response to the "sex isn't important to the plot" thread was going to be to ask eagerly if you knew the plotlines for the coming 3 books. Seriously though ... I see later that your point is that sex isn't central to the "good versus evil" overarching theme. I do want to point out though that it *could* be later -- I can imagine instances where romantic entanglements (but not explicit sex) could be vitally important subplots. My pet theory for Book 5 or 6 involves FITD (see the VFAQs) and betrayal -- there's romance, conflict & it's all central to the plot. (Theory for those who haven't heard it: Ron finds out Hermione has romantic feelings for Harry and/or thinks/imagines there is a H/H relationship and betrays Harry in some manner as a result). [Yes, there are still some of us out there who don't think Hermione returns Ron's romantic interest -- ] I don't expect JKR will give us explicit details in any case (and I wouldn't want any), but I do expect the characters to age believably. I'll be disappointed if they don't. In OoP, they will all be turning 16 at some point in the book or soon thereafter in Harry's case. GODPARENTS: I may have missed someone else making this point, but I wanted to chime in that it is perfectly possible that Harry does not have a godmother. If the godparents were given this status in some sort of religious context, it would be more normal than not for there to be a godparent of each gender. But, in this case, I have the impression that Sirius is a godfather more in the sense of a legal guardian than in a spiritual mentor role. In that case, I don't think it follows that Harry definitely has a godmother. In appointing a guardian for a child, you wouldn't appoint 2 unmarried individuals and leave it to them to sort out the details of who would actually have custody of the child in the event of your death. I think Sirius is quite possibly his only godparent. Penny From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 17:53:05 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:53:05 -0000 Subject: Volde's Mistakes (Was: Eye Roll) In-Reply-To: <9m0eqg+td5r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m0ri1+dgfg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24711 Growing up male, I met many a boy who liked to rip off the legs of crabs, wings off of flies, and inflict other slow, torturous means of killing lesser creatures. I used to be a fair chess player. Sometimes when I played a particularly obnoxious opponent (or at least one that I judged as so), I would decimate all his forces leaving only his king. I would then move all my pieces back to their starting squares, and then and only then proceed to check-mate him. I just had to rub his little obnoxious nose in it. "I am big and powerful, you are weak and helpless. I'm going to make you suffer because I am big and powerful, and you can't do anything about it!" Not a pretty sight, but not uncommon I am afraid. Was it smart? No. Was it required? No. Was it logical? Not really. Unfortunately, people do act that way -- even if it isn't smart, required, or logical. Marcus From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 19:03:46 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:03:46 -0000 Subject: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <20010822171911.96529.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9m0vmi+q3b1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24712 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > Arabella Figg could easily be the same age as James & Lily but lives as > harmless, eccentric, OLD Mrs. Figg to throw off suspicion. > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie A thought just struck me which may add credence to the above. JKR has a tendency to introduce something seemingly innocuous, by way of an introduction, only to reveal its more sinister/significant uses later on. An example of this is polyjuice potion, used by the trio in CoS, and used brilliantly by Barty Crouch in GoF. It is therefore entirely possible that Mrs Figg is a young Arabella Figg, who has used the very same ageing potion that Fred and George used in GoF. The idea is already there, so we know that it exists - so it is highly likely that it will be used again to greater effect. The only problem I see with this is what are the effects of an ageing potion? Is it like polyjuice potion, in that the brew has to be taken at regular intervals to sustain the effect, thereby allowing the drinker to revert to their normal age when the potion is no longer effective OR, are the effects permanent? Catherine From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 22 19:14:49 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:14:49 -0000 Subject: Voldemort Sings In-Reply-To: <006201c12a53$0656f9a0$db92aecb@price> Message-ID: <9m10b9+i6e5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24713 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > katzefan: > > > Allyse: could've been worse - remember what Disney did to Mary Poppins? Try to envision a *singing* Voldemort. > > I am, and very amusing it is too. If I knew any of the twee songs in Mary Poppins well enough, I'd attempt a filk (Just a tune full of magic makes Lord Voldemort go down, tralala...) > You must be new here. Over the past several months, my fellow filkers and I have had the Dark Lord crooning to material ranging from Gilbert & Sullivan to the Bee Gees, from Cole Porter to the Lion King. No Mary Poppins, though (both Harry and the Ministry of Magic have taken cracks at MP songs, however) Voldy's high cold voice is especially well suited to reaching those high falsetto notes in such songs as "Staying Alive" or "Lightnin' Striking Again" (rendered as Barely Alive and Dark Mark Striking Again on the website). - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From laurence59 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 19:33:16 2001 From: laurence59 at yahoo.com (laurence59 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:33:16 -0000 Subject: Sketch Topic: Travel/Transportation In-Reply-To: <9m02k4+60v4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m11ds+tklf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24714 In response to q.8, fireplaces in Hogwarts probably can be connected to the floo network as Sirius transported his head (GoF) to talk with Harry pre-first task. In response to q.9 Yes some wizards/witches can make themselves invisable when flying on brooms by a) using an invisability cloak (Harry mentions doing it in PoA before getting on the Knight Bus) or by b) making themselvs invisable (as Dumbledore does in The Mirror of Erised, PS/SS "I do not need a cloak to make me invisable" - or something to that effect - from memory. --Laurence From pbarhug at earthlink.net Wed Aug 22 19:37:49 2001 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:37:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where did it come from? References: <20010822073334.67697.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B840A0D.F860FDB3@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24715 Susanne Schmid wrote: > > --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > I have always wanted to know, -- and I checked the > archives and see no mention of my question -- where > did Harry's Nimbus 2000 come from? > I believe that McGonagall tells Harry (either by note or in person) that she ordered the broom and took the money form his account (at Gringotts, presumably). I'd like to quote chapter and verse, but my book is out on loan at the minute. drpam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vheggie at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 20:17:30 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:17:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's many godparents! In-Reply-To: <9m0q1a+lru1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m140r+8tq2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24716 Maybe I'm an anomoly, but my religious education lessons at school in the UK taught me that the Anglican church typically has three godparents; two the same sex as the child, and one the opposite. Of course, there's always the possibility that Sirius was the only Godparent to survive... From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 22 21:19:14 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:19:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <9m0vmi+q3b1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m17ki+4jlj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24717 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > > Arabella Figg could easily be the same age as James & Lily but > lives as > > harmless, eccentric, OLD Mrs. Figg to throw off suspicion. > > > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie > > > A thought just struck me which may add credence to the above. JKR > has a tendency to introduce something seemingly innocuous, by way of > an introduction, only to reveal its more sinister/significant uses > later on. An example of this is polyjuice potion, used by the trio > in CoS, and used brilliantly by Barty Crouch in GoF. > > It is therefore entirely possible that Mrs Figg is a young Arabella > Figg, who has used the very same ageing potion that Fred and George > used in GoF. The idea is already there, so we know that it exists - > so it is highly likely that it will be used again to greater effect. > > The only problem I see with this is what are the effects of an ageing > potion? Is it like polyjuice potion, in that the brew has to be > taken at regular intervals to sustain the effect, thereby allowing > the drinker to revert to their normal age when the potion is no > longer effective OR, are the effects permanent? > > > Catherine Good eye, Catherine. In GoF, Fred and George just went to the hospital wing to be de-aged. So you probably only have to take an antidote, which Mrs. Figg could take to make herself younger. Cindy From vderark at bccs.org Wed Aug 22 21:24:51 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:24:51 -0000 Subject: Sketch Topic: Travel/Transportation In-Reply-To: <9m02k4+60v4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m17v3+p8fa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24718 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > the act of driving as we know it. Remus Lupin says he must speak to > the driver of the Hogwarts Express, after the Dementor had made an > appearance (PoA p. 85). "Driver" seems to be an odd job description > for a person running a train on a set of tracks. How do these An engine driver is the British equivelent of a train engineer in the US. Sounds odd to Yanks, sounds perfectly normal to Brits. > vehicles work? I agree with what others on this list have posted, and > with the overview on Transportation on the Harry Potter Lexicon - > that magic vehicles share similarities of appearance with Muggle > devices, but they run by magic.\ FYI: the page listing forms of transportation is located at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/w_transportation.html the discussion of magical devices compared to Muggle ones is here: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_express.html (scroll down the page a bit) Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 21:31:27 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:31:27 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m18bf+cpho@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24719 Amber:"I do realize that Voldemort is not perfect. He has to make mistakes, fatal mistakes that bring about his downfall. However, I just don't like it when Villains make ridiculous mistakes. And untying Harry and giving his wand back was a ridiculous mistake in my mind. If Voldemort makes any others in the next books, I'll be quite upset." Don't be. It's actually realistic. Evil psychos, especially evil dictator psychos, tend to make stupid mistakes out of their own craziness or arrogance; Hitler invading Russia 150 years after Napoleon broke himself doing the exact same thing is a good example of it. OTOH, I can understand being annoyed at this plot device, which Roger Ebert, the movie critic, refers to as "The Fallacy of the Talking Killer." How many movies would have ended half an hour earlier if some thug hadn't just shut up and pulled the trigger? Voldemort is a psycho villain. That's why I'm more afraid of Lucius, who is a sane villain, and thus much more dangerous. From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 22:01:36 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:01:36 -0000 Subject: Wands and wandless magic In-Reply-To: <9lugh2+gv9g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m1a40+8qvc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24720 Cynthia:"A couple of wand questions: First, where is Pettigrew's wand? I personally think it got blown up or lost) when he blew up the street. That explains why Pettigrew is using Voldemort's wand all the time (except for the time he used Lupin's wand to stun Ron and Crookshanks)." Good question. Your explanation might well be the right one, but it could be that Pettrigrew had to hide it when he assumed rat form and has lost it or been unable to return to it in all this time. He spent years with the Weasley family, you know. Cynthia:"Second, wizards can do simple spells without wands. So, then, what is the single most complex spell any wizard or witch performs in the books without a wand? Any ideas?" My hypothesis has always been, "it depends." IOW, *all* spells depend on the talent, skill, and experience of the witch or wizard performing them. That means Dumbledore can do spells without a wand that maybe no other wizard can do, just as I bet he can Apparate farther than anybody else and Summon or Banish farther and faster than other wizards. In GoF, we see instances where witches can Summon without naming the thing called, as Harry did with the Cup and Molly Weasley did cleaning out Fred and George's Ton-Tongue Toffees. In both cases, the "operator" was physically near the object(s) and looking right at them. They were both highly motivated at the time, too, which might have made a difference. But Harry had to say 'Accio Firebolt!' at the First Task. He was some distance away from his broom and couldn't see it. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 22 22:36:31 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:36:31 -0000 Subject: Wands, wands and more wands In-Reply-To: <03f201c12a81$f34de240$a473f2d1@lisaannc> Message-ID: <9m1c5f+1ht5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24721 I wonder which spell is more difficult: apparating or animagus transformation? Both can go horribly wrong. With apparating, you can accidently transport a piece of yourself, and with animagus, I believe you can transform badly (like Krum's half-shark). But the MoM has a special squad to fix flawed apparations, so it must be harder to do correctly. Cindy --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" wrote: > I would have to say the willing transformation to animal form and then back again. Sirius does not need a wand for that. They needed one to force Peter back to human form, but not to change their own forms. > > Lisa-Ann > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cynthiaanncoe at h... > To: HPforGrownups at y... > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 3:32 PM > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands, wands and more wands > > > A couple of wand questions: > > First, where is Pettigrew's wand? I personally think it got blown up > (or lost) when he blew up the street. That explains why Pettigrew is > using Voldemort's wand all the time (except for the time he used > Lupin's wand to stun Ron and Crookshanks). > > Second, wizards can do simple spells without wands. So, then, what > is the single most complex spell any wizard or witch performs in the > books without a wand? Any ideas? > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at y... > > Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 22 22:45:31 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:45:31 -0000 Subject: Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m1cmb+n33t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24722 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "princesskatie115 -" wrote: > Alfredo Ramirez (or JB which do you prefer?) wrote: > > Actually, I don't think Dumbledore is actually doing magic here. I get the > feeling, that much like the food that appears and disappears on plates, > this is actually done by house-elves simply obeying their master's orders. > After all, decorations and cleaning do seem to fall under the jurisdiction > of our poor mistreated house-elves. :-) > > And Rrishi wrote: > but I was guessing in the case of Tom that the fireplaces were charmed > beforehand to light up when Tom snapped his fingers. Makes things easier, > doesn't it? > Or, does practice enable a wizard or witch to do simple and very familiar > spells without the aid of a wand? But this is an old topic... > > And Jackie B. Wrote: > > So, while it could be that house elves were helping out, or that the > fireplace was programmed to respond automatically, I believe it is also > clear that certain types of wandless magic can and do occur. If you consider > that the wand in part is used to focus magical energy then for me it seems > reasonable that more accomplished wizards could train their mind to achieve > some of this goal as well. IMO that would be a very useful tool in many > situations. > > > I'm choosing to believe that all these points are logical. At this point I > think I'll base my understanding of wandless magic on the idea that things > can be charmed to work at the snap of a finger or various other commands, > that house-elves help out, that you can practice until a spell is like > second nature to you, and that very accomplished wizards can do lots of > spells without their wands. > > In GoF Voldemort is talking to the Death Eaters (chapter: The Death Eaters), > and he says (and this time I dug out the book, so it's an actual quote ), > ` for I had no body, and every spell which might have helped me required the > use of a wand ' > > I wonder what way I should take this Because it seems to me that it can be > taken a few different ways. For instance: > > a) There are spells that do not require wands, but they weren't relevant to > his needs. > > b) He could not do magic, because he didn't have a wand period. > > c) He wasn't powerful enough anymore to perform those spells without his > wand, though he might have been able to at the height of his power. > > d) He never was powerful enough to perform spells without wands. (But then > again, I don't think Quirrell was, and he made ropes to tie up Harry appear > out of thin air. I always thought that Voldemort was channeling his powers > through Quirrell and that was why he could snap his fingers and make ropes > appear.) > > e) I would consider Voldemort an accomplished wizard, possibly as > accomplished, or even as powerful as Dumbledore, who seems to exhibit the > ability to do magic without a wand. Now, if he was indeed this powerful > (according to the aforesaid theory that accomplished wizards could do spells > without wands), what would it matter if he didn't have his body to work a > wand with? He seemingly still has some magical essence (since I don't think > that was sucked out of him by the rebounded curse), and should have been > able to do those spells on his own anyway! Right .? > > > Any thoughts?? > > > Katie** Katie, I'd guess that the wandless magic thing isn't too terribly complex. Each wizard probably can do a few things wandless, and this depends on their powers and what they've practiced. But Voldemort needed a wand to get his body back because so much was involved, i.e. it is a difficult and complex spell. Consider that Sirius, one of the most talented wizards around, couldn't drive off dementors without a wand (either at Azkaban or at the end of PofA), and he has never been seen doing any magic without a wand (using Snape's wand to transport him, to reveal Pettigrew, and to attempt to kill Pettigrew). I'll bet Sirius could conjure some fire if he needed to, though. He just hasn't needed to do anything simple yet. And while we're on the subject, I think Sirius is so powerful that he was going to disarm Snape in PofA even if Harry, Ron and Hermione had not intervened. After Snape is knocked out, Sirius says "You should have left him to me." Sirius must have had some magic in mind, and probably wandless magic to take on Snape, who was armed. Cindy > ******************************************************************* > 'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' > And he fainted. > ******************************************************************* > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 22 22:56:29 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:56:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eye Roll References: <9m0h0i+83kg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B84389C.13AE0F25@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24723 fourfuries at aol.com wrote: > Voldemort, like other megalomaniacs, is less concerned with actually > taking over the world than with being revered by it, albeit revered > for the cruelty he is capable of dishing out. Remember from CS, Tom > Riddle devised the anagram Voldemeort to be a name that "wizards > would fear". His primary motivation is what others think of him. Exactly. Which brings me to an observation which I'm not sure anyone has made in this thread yet (although I'm abundantly behind)---Voldemort *does* have a purpose in his little show with Harry, other than Evil Overlord Syndrome. The Death Eaters have gathered, but they're not 100% rededicated yet; probably if he keels over they'd kite back to their homes and jobs and be relieved not to have to deal with it. Barty Jr. is the only person who is genuinely happy (that we know of) that Voldemort is back. Voldemort is doing PR. He's going to whip up the enthusiasm of the Death Eaters, and cement their loyalty, by this little show of squashing his supposed nemesis in front of everyone. He's about (according to my Theory of Why The Whole Cup As Portkey Thing) to visit an attack upon the stronghold of his enemies, probably containing the children of some of the Death Eaters with him, and he *must* have their unquestioned obedience and loyalty. [See, I think the Portkey-by-touch served two purposes; to bring Harry to him in an undisturbed location to be resurrected and revenged, and secondly, to take Voldemort and his crew back to an unsuspecting, unprotected, stronghold, inaccessible in any other way, to wreak havoc upon the strongest of his enemies in a lightning surprise attack.] But to get back on track. Voldemort is trying, with his little Harry show, to remove any last traces of doubt in the minds of his followers before they sally forth to conquer the world. Not to say he isn't enjoying it, but there *is* a practical purpose. It's not made up of whole cloth. He's not totally idiotic, just given to melodrama when circumstances permit. And he thought they permitted. This is why I think that Snape might just survive an attempt to return to Voldemort; as a trusted higher-up in Hogwarts, Snape's appearance before Voldemort and statement of renewed allegiance would be *exactly* the sort of thing Voldemort would need right about then, an ace in the hole in tremendously unforeseen circumstances, a way to convince the Death Eaters that they do, still, have a plan and a chance, etc. Okay, rambled enough, but the point is Voldemort did a dumb thing, but not a totally idiotic one. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mindyatime at juno.com Wed Aug 22 22:57:22 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:57:22 -0400 Subject: My reading habits Message-ID: <20010822.185729.-418595.3.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24724 Susanna wrote: "I really don't want to seem patronizing, but you can't read most of world literature, if "lurid" (and this adjective would certainly deserve more thorough definition) scenes are against your own convictions." Indeed, I don't, and HP is one of the few 'world literature' books I read. I read juvenile fiction and Judaica novels, which eschew boy/girl things and concentrate on suspense, thrills, and family matters. As for me writing about the 'zero sexual innuendo', read further on my original post. I wrote: GoF does have some things I found objectionable, including: Uranus, Molly snaping at Ron to go naked to the party, Harry 'bending his legs' so that Myrtle doesn't see 'anything' and Archie wanting a breeze around his.... whatever. The first three books, I could give a third grader to read. GoF... Dunno! From usergoogol at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 23:03:37 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:03:37 -0000 Subject: Sketch Topic: Travel/Transportation In-Reply-To: <9m02k4+60v4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m1doa+k8it@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24725 > 1. What is the fascination with bright colors for Wizard vehicles - > the scarlet Express, the violently purple Knight Bus, the powder blue > Beauxbatons carriage? Is this simply a method JKR uses to make us > look at common Muggle vehicles in a different light? > As part of Vander Ark's wonderful Lexicon probably states, wizards just plain like bright colors. > 2. Does the Beauxbatons' carriage need to be pulled by Abraxan (FB), > the giant, palomino, winged horses? Or are the horses used merely to > give a more impressive appearance to the carriage? > Need? I doubt it. If I remember right, it flew. And although being carried by Abraxans would definitally help keep the carriage in the air, it wouldn't be flying unless the carriage itself was set up to levitate. My theory? The carriage can levitate and fly around, but the horses help make it move faster. > 3. Why does the Durmstrang boat rise up from the bottom of the lake > at Hogwarts? Is there some sort of watery network that allows boats > to submerge in one body of water and emerge in another - sort of a > Floo Network for ships? > I'm guessing that it is possible for entire large inanimate objects to apparate. But I'm just guessing. > 4. What is the power source for enchanted Muggle vehicles? Is it > simply a spell that enables the vehicle to act in magical ways? > Hmm... I'm guessing its powered by the original car's engine, but with some "magic" energy boosters. Of course, every enchanted vehnicle is different, so I'm using the Anglia as my example. > 8. Could fireplaces in Hogwarts be hooked up to the Floo Network? > Probably. But then again, wouldn't we have seen something? > 9. Can wizards make themselves invisible when flying on brooms so > that Muggles won't notice them should they be flying in daylight? > OTOH, since we don't notice the Knight Bus, maybe we're too involved > in our mundane world to look up and see someone in emerald green > robes zooming across the sky. > To quote the enigmatic corpse, Douglas Adams, "People don't tend to see something if it is: "Not there problem." Many spaceships have used this to replace highly complicated cloaking devices." > 10. Do you think flying horses are used in some sort of aerial > equestrian sport? > I dunno. Yes, but it may never be mentioned in canon. Quidditch seems to hog the spotline for the time being. > 11. Do Charlie Weasly and Hagrid wish they could ride dragons? > I do! Well, maybe not the dragons mentioned in the books, but maybe a carefully domesticated dragon. Yeah. Actually, in my "yet-to-be-written" fanfic, there are domesticated dragons similar to the Yoshis in the Super Mario video game series. > 12. What would your favorite method of travel be? > Brooms, because of the fun of flying through the air. But, apparation would be the most practical. From triner918 at aol.com Wed Aug 22 23:08:42 2001 From: triner918 at aol.com (Trina) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:08:42 -0000 Subject: Cup as Portkey (was:Eye Roll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m1e1q+ksf2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24726 Amber wrote: > How about this for another stupid mistake. Instead of destroying the portkey after Harry arrives, it is left where Harry can get to it again. Tchah. Somebody should've either 1)Destroyed it or 2) Nullified it so it couldn't be used as a portkey any longer. I hope Wormtail got a good yelling at later.>> Way way back in March I postulated a reason why the portkey cup was set for a return trip. If you're interested, it's Post #14038. Trina, flattered that my early morning pondering is now at the Lexicon... From vderark at bccs.org Wed Aug 22 23:20:09 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:20:09 -0000 Subject: My reading habits In-Reply-To: <20010822.185729.-418595.3.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9m1en9+84l3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24727 Hi, Mindy: This is Steve the Youth Librarian talking now, taking off my Lexicon Editor hat. My question is this: have you ever read any other fantasy literature? I'm not digging into the questions about sexual innuendo or the lack of it here, I'm actually trying to get more of a handle on you. I am the librarian for a Christian school which has pretty conservative values. I deal every day with people who have different convictions than I do about books and I am NOT being critical at all here. I believe that each person's choices of reading material is personal and to be defended, whether or not they choose the same books I do. But I am asked all the time by kids to help them find a good book. So I'm always curious what people read and why. I am not familiar with Judaica novels (although I'll bet I'm familiar with some that are a lot like it). But what else have you read before Harry Potter that was fantasy? And then, what led you to read the Potter books, given your usual choices? Steve Vander Ark Library Media Specialist Byron Center Christian School Byron Center, Michigan, USA (and the Lexicon etc.) From editor at texas.net Wed Aug 22 23:39:01 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:39:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cup as Portkey (was:Eye Roll) References: <9m1e1q+ksf2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B844294.139CE8B3@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24728 Trina wrote: > Way way back in March I postulated a reason why the portkey cup was > set for a return trip. If you're interested, it's Post #14038. And yet more ancient history: Naama asked the question in 6231 in November 2000 and started a lengthy thread called "portkey conundrum," In 5928, 2512, and 2427 we debated why we thought the cup portkey worked at a touch. In 9882 (at the end) and 9254, I put forward much the same theory that Trina did in hers, about why go through the whole Triwizard Tourney hoo-ha to get Harry to Voldemort, and when Trina posted it we discussed it in more depth. The archives really are a lot of fun, if you browse on one word and go back far enough (the search starts at the most recent and goes backward, just keep hitting next until you feel archaic enough and jump in). The responses show up at the bottom. There's so much in there I've forgotten about! --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 22 23:56:22 2001 From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:56:22 -0000 Subject: Sketch Topic: Travel/Transportation In-Reply-To: <9m1doa+k8it@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m1gr6+r870@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24729 Whilst we're on this topic, I've got a question that I wanted to ask about Apparating. I had originally assumed that apparating was the magical equivalent of teleporting (as used in Marvel's X-Men comics), that is to say that you needed to know where you were going and be able to picture that place in your mind. However, someone in GoF (sorry, I don't have my books with me so can't remember who) says that when LV touched the Dark Mark of a DE they were all to disapparate and apparate immediately at his side. If this is the case then how would they know where to go? Does Apparating allow you to focus on a person and as well as place for your destination? And if this is so why can't MoM wizards focus on LV, apparate to his side and capture him? Thanks Aleks From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 23:59:29 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:59:29 -0000 Subject: Refreshing Innocence of HP Preteens In-Reply-To: <9m0ich+g92m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m1h11+cr31@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24730 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > > > > > Because sex is not important to the plot! [snip] > > It might not be important to the main plot, but sexual feelings > > and romantic longings are both important to the emotional depth > > and growth of the characters. {snip} They are real and down-to- > > earth. They have turbulent emotions just as we have. > > > We are very close to agreement. All I am asking is that we > distinguish between romantic inclinations that are natural to the > growth of the characters, and explicitly contrived plot devices > that explore sexuality without adding anything to the central > issue: the battle between good and evil. > Yes but. While the Yule Ball and the Harry/Cho/Cedric triangle may seem soapy and tangential, in the end, Harry clearly feels guilt for three reasons: 1) he harbored ill thoughts against Cedric because of Cho, and now Cedric is dead; 2) his actions led directly to Cedric's death, however well-intended; and 3) because he did something that led to Cedric's death, that means he also caused Cho's sadness over Cedric (someone he cares about is suffering because of his actions). None of these plot developments would be possible if JKR were truly dedicated to keeping these kids behaving as though they were still eleven and twelve year olds, and it wouldn't be realistic to keep them behaving as though they weren't maturing either. It will be interesting to see where these feelings of guilt take him and the future plots. Harry needs to decide whether he deserves to be happy; he may choose to try to punish himself to atone for the "sins" of being "responsible" for Cedric's death and for Cho's mourning, or the guilt may simply paralyze him until a LACK of action causes more trouble than acting would. --Barb Get Psyched Out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych From mindyatime at juno.com Thu Aug 23 00:10:46 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:10:46 -0400 Subject: Evil Overlord Scorecard Message-ID: <20010822.201059.-418595.8.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24731 "but I'll raise it to a B to reflect the degree of difficulty of finding another way to do the scene" Mad-Eye Moody could have tried to kill Harry immediately upon entering the office without any explanations, and Dumbledore could've arrived right away, and stupefied Moody/Crouch, and Moody/Crouch could have told the whole story under the Veritaserum, instead of half to Harry and half under the Veritaserum. HOWEVER, the blabbling is essential to the plot, because we were all DUMBFOUNDED when we thought Moody was the DE masterminding it all. Also, Moody wanted to hear all the details from Harry before killing him. He wanted to know how the Dark Lord had treated the traitors. So he had to talk. Maybe not all of it, but much of it. additionally, I think he relished the idea of torturing Harry; seeing his reaction upon thinking it was the Auror Moody whodunit. In a moment, after Harry will be killed, he will have no one to gloat to about his accomplishments, for tthe Hogwarts Management will swarm in and surround him. He needs to unburden six months of bursting secrecy to SOMEONE, right now, that the climax that has been building up all year which is choking him. And the first and presumably the best targe to throw it at, is Harry. I am puzzled though, why it took Dumbledore so long to arrive -- couldn't he or McGonagall have followed him instantly? Harry and Moody were there quite long. Can someone also explain to me how the Foe-glass works? It was never quite explained and I have a hard time understanding it. From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 00:27:20 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <9m17ki+4jlj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010823002720.2279.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24732 --- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: >Good eye, Catherine. In GoF, Fred and >George just went to the hospital wing >to be de-aged. So you probably only >have to take an antidote, which Mrs. >Figg could take to make herself >younger. Actually, they went to the hospital wing to be de-bearded not to be youthened. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From djtarb at aol.com Thu Aug 23 00:36:55 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:36:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eye Roll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24733 In a message dated Wed, 22 Aug 2001 7:02:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Amanda Lewanski writes: > > > This is why I think that Snape might just survive an attempt to return > to Voldemort; as a trusted higher-up in Hogwarts, Snape's appearance > before Voldemort and statement of renewed allegiance would be *exactly* > the sort of thing Voldemort would need right about then, an ace in the > hole in tremendously unforeseen circumstances, a way to convince the > Death Eaters that they do, still, have a plan and a chance, etc. > Plus, Snape truly hates Harry. You can't fake that sort of thing and it should resonate nicely with the Big V. Diane in PA From pbarhug at earthlink.net Thu Aug 23 01:01:34 2001 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:01:34 -0400 Subject: Evil Overlords, Psycho Voldie, the Foe Glass References: <20010822.201059.-418595.8.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <3B8455EE.977420A0@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24734 Jim Ferer wrote: > Voldemort is a psycho villain. That's why I'm more afraid of Lucius, > who is a sane villain, and thus much more dangerous. > > Are you saying, by this quote, that you think Voldemort is insane? I've been pondering the issue of sanity in the villains for awhile, since the thread about Barty Crouch, Jr.'s sanity. I think Voldemort is narcissistic, sadistic, power hungry, angry...a whole host of things...but I believe he is perfectly sane. His reality contact is okay; he doesn't appear to be suffering from delusions or what would clinically be referred to as "disturbances in the content and/or process of thought." It is only that his beliefs are distasteful to us and offensive and that the regard he holds for human life is below the acceptable standard. But there is no evidence of his being insane. I'm not trying to be flip, but I am truly interested in the perception of others regarding Big V's (thanks, Tabouli) sanity. I find Voldemort disturbing because he is very reminiscent of the many power mad leaders that have made their appearance in the world's history and I am always surprised at this types ability to gather followers. "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > Can someone also explain to me how the Foe-glass works? It was never > quite explained and I have a hard time understanding it. > > I believe the Foe Glass is an early warning system; let's you know if somebody is hot on your trail. Remember in the scene when Harry was first invited to "Moody's" office and he noticed that there were only indistinct figures in the Glass. "Moody" commented that he didn't worry until he saw "the whites of their eyes" at which time he would open his trunk. I think he's saying that the Foe-Glass will show him who is on to him, enabling him to take action. In the above scene, there was really no threat to "Moody;" however, after the Third Task, Dumbledore suspected him of being up to no good and was bringing Snape and McGonagall to confront the impostor. Hence the pictures of the Foes that appear in the Glass. Hope this make some sense. drpam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From usergoogol at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 01:50:38 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:50:38 -0000 Subject: wizard finding jobs in muggle world (was Re: Insanely long and detailed reply (w In-Reply-To: <20010815033657.95001.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9m1nhe+4bf1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24735 This topic is a bit of an oldie (which I found while typing in "Nintendo" in the archive search :) ) The main questions asked were: (1) How do people switch into the Muggle world? and (2) How do wizards go to college? Firstly, I believe that if someone wishes to go to college, they enter the muggle world. But then how to answer the Muggle world? I have thought long and hard about this question. (I am in the process of creating a fanfic in which J.K. Rowling (and a few execs at the Nintendo company) are magical.) Here's the reasoning I have derived. If someone wishes to enter the muggle world, or they are squibs and feel that they have talents that muggles would better appreciate, they go to their government's "Department of Muggles" or something of that nature. (I made it up.) There, they get a "fake history" loosely based on their own, and a Social Security number. Then, they go into the world, and explore the world. Once there, they may wish to go to a Muggle college and then return to the Wizard world, forgetting their former mugglishness, or they may get into a business and live a happy life. (For reference, my "false theory" states that Joanne Rowling decided to go to a muggle college to study. After that, she started writing, mainly in the wizarding community. Then, Harry Potter decided to allow her to write a story based on his Hogwarts years.) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 01:54:52 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:54:52 -0000 Subject: The Cup as Portkey Question In-Reply-To: <98dagj+adj8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m1npc+hphb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24736 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > Or, By George I've Got It! > > Having recently done a GoF re-read, the last terrifying and emotional > chapters have been on my mind a lot. This morning, while briefly > considering the What Might Have Been if Cedric had been the only one > to grasp the cup--a thoroughly frightning idea which is a post of its > own, I returned to the Eternal Question-- > > Why make the Cup a portkey when Harry's toothbrush would work just as > well? > > Like the Grinch, we have all puzzled on this till our puzzlers were > sore, but today an answer hit me with the force of a well-placed > Impedimenta charm. It was so simple. The answer lie in the portkey > itself. > > Picture it Little Hangleton, June. Voldy and Wormtail await the bane > of their existences--young Harry Potter. Once he arrives, > disoriented and properly frightened, he is tied to Daddy Riddle's > tombstone, and forced to provide Voldy with a blood sample. Voldy > reincorporates into the Big Bad of yesteryear, at which point he > calls in his Death Eaters, chastises them for a bit, and then > disposes of Harry, after an invigorating game of cat and mouse. > > (With me so far? Okay. Because here's where it gets good.) > > At this point Voldy and his lowly minions *Touch The Portkey And > Return To Hogwarts* to begin the new Reign of Terror. *This* is why > the portkey was rigged to return to Hogwarts. > > They arrive outside of the maze, with Harry's lifeless body (after > all a good gloat is needed) and begin decimating the future wizarding > population. They're merely students (and not just Hogwarts students > either, but Beauxbatons and Durmstrang as well), easy prey. Also in > the arena is Karakoff the coward, Snape the spy, Bagman, the MoM > Fudge, Dumbledore, and, of course, Crouch as Moody. Crouch didn't > just "forget" to take his Polyjuice Potion. It wasn't needed. He > could begin hurling hexes as Moody (in all the chaos who could tell > for which side he was playing?) and after the potion wore off, he > could fight clearly as himself, alongside his Dark Lord. > > After the battle, Voldemort would be in absolute power and all would > be right in his world. > > It was so brilliant. It was so simple. It should have worked. > > Fortunately for us, Harry had an ace up his sleeve, or rather, a > pheonix feather in his wand and managed to foil Voldy's plan once > again. > > Respectfully submitted for your approval... > > Trina > Now 86% obssessed. Trina, I so desparately want to believe, but I'm not sold, for the following reasons: 1. If the plan was for V and the DEs to use a portkey to gain access to Hogwarts and storm it, there still would be no reason not to use Harry's toothbrush instead of the Cup. Indeed, storming Hotwarts is much more likely to work if V does it by stealth (using a toothbrush round trip portkey) instead of doing it with a huge crowd of powerful wizards around outside the maze. 2. If V knows the Cup is a roundtrip portkey to be used to storm Hogwards, then it is *really* inexcusable to leave it unguarded so Harry could escape. V would have posted a DE to guard the Cup with his life. 3. If V thought he could defeat Dumbledore by storming Hogwards, he would have done it 15 years ago. 4. V has no idea how many powerful wizards are attending the Triwizard finale. The Tournament hasn't been held in ages and is hugely important. The whole MoM could be there, hit wizards and all. It could well be the cream of the wizarding crop, so V could be walking into an unwinnable battle. I'm still more convinced that the round trip properties of the Cup are kind of an accident. Moody knows the cup is to transport the winner to the outside of the maze (do we really expect the winner to have to battle his way back out of the maze holding the cup?). V does not know this so does not take the proper, um, precautions. So why not use a toothbrush instead of the cup? Well, I'm still puzzling this out, but one feature of the portkey is that Moody can't just hand it to Harry. He has to set it down and Harry has to pick it up. There aren't many items Moody would have access to that he could obtain, privately bewitch, set down, and then encourage Harry to touch. So the plan V and Moody have is fine. One way or another, an "enemy" in the form of one of the four Triwizard champs is going to touch the Cup, and he'll get someone's blood, even if it is not Harry's blood. (Remember, any enemy's blood will work, but Harry's is the best). Cheers! Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 02:04:45 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 02:04:45 -0000 Subject: Evil Overlord Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20010822.201059.-418595.8.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9m1obt+smmk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24737 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > "but I'll raise it to a B to reflect the degree of difficulty of finding > another way to do the scene" > > Mad-Eye Moody could have tried to kill Harry immediately upon entering > the office without any explanations, and Dumbledore could've arrived > right away, and stupefied Moody/Crouch, and Moody/Crouch could have told > the whole story under the Veritaserum, instead of half to Harry and half > under the Veritaserum. > > HOWEVER, the blabbling is essential to the plot, because we were all > DUMBFOUNDED when we thought Moody was the DE masterminding it all. Also, > Moody wanted to hear all the details from Harry before killing him. He > wanted to know how the Dark Lord had treated the traitors. So he had to > talk. Maybe not all of it, but much of it. additionally, I think he > relished the idea of torturing Harry; seeing his reaction upon thinking > it was the Auror Moody whodunit. In a moment, after Harry will be killed, > he will have no one to gloat to about his accomplishments, for tthe > Hogwarts Management will swarm in and surround him. He needs to unburden > six months of bursting secrecy to SOMEONE, right now, that the climax > that has been building up all year which is choking him. And the first > and presumably the best targe to throw it at, is Harry. > > I am puzzled though, why it took Dumbledore so long to arrive -- couldn't > he or McGonagall have followed him instantly? Harry and Moody were there > quite long. I think it took Dumbledore time get to Mooney/Harry because Mooney said he was going to the hospital wing, so Dumbledore may have gone there first; Snape and McGonnagle are patrolling the outside of the maze, so Dumbledore has to find them; Diggory's parents are rushing over, so Dumbledore has to put them off somehow. With all of that, I guess it's a miracle that Dumbledore gets there in time at all. :) Cindy > > Can someone also explain to me how the Foe-glass works? It was never > quite explained and I have a hard time understanding it. From mindyatime at juno.com Thu Aug 23 01:57:47 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:57:47 -0400 Subject: Tthe Prude with a Very Un-Prudish Question Message-ID: <20010822.220442.-418595.13.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24738 After declaring myself a prude I am aghast at myself for posting the following question, but it's BUGGING me. Isn't it awfully uncomfortable to be flying on a broom? Think into it. Harry jerking up and down on this thin slab of wood... isn't it even painful, especially during a violent Quidditch match, doing "Wonky-Faints" and stuff? I can't imagine riding one, especially on wild rides. (Perhaps that is why wizards rarely use them for transportation). Maybe the broom is a wide thing so it's not bothersome. Dunno. Forgive me for coming out of the prude closet. From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Thu Aug 23 02:16:32 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tthe Prude with a Very Un-Prudish Question In-Reply-To: <20010822.220442.-418595.13.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24739 On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Mindy, a.k.a. CLH wrote: > Isn't it awfully uncomfortable to be flying on a broom? Think into it. > Harry jerking up and down on this thin slab of wood... isn't it even > painful, especially during a violent Quidditch match, doing > "Wonky-Faints" and stuff? I can't imagine riding one, especially on wild > rides. (Perhaps that is why wizards rarely use them for transportation). Magical brooms, unlike the Muggle variety, are enchanted to make riding comfortable. According to QTA (Amer. ed., pp. 47f.), Elliot Smethwyck invented the Cushioning Charm in 1820 which provides a sort of invisible seat (a cushion, in the sense of a stuffed fabric pillow for sitting on) for the wizard. There's a very cute picture of it. --jen :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 02:29:38 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:29:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cup as Portkey (was:Eye Roll) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24740 >From: "Trina" > >Amber wrote: >>How about this for another stupid mistake. Instead of destroying >>the portkey after Harry arrives, it is left where Harry can get to it >>again. Tchah. Somebody should've either 1)Destroyed it or 2) >>Nullified it so it couldn't be used as a portkey any longer. I hope >>Wormtail got a good yelling at later.>> > >Way way back in March I postulated a reason why the portkey cup was >set for a return trip. If you're interested, it's Post #14038. Oh feh. This is what I get for writing HP emails at work when I should be thinking about Java. I KNEW about the portkey cup theories when I wrote the post. Yet somehow my brain decided to momentarily forget about it. I think I'm turning red, I'm so embarassed. So gollygoshdarnit, sorry 'bout my lapse in memory. Where's the Whomping Willow, methinks I need to be smacked a couple of times... ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Updated 8/17/01 "...Afraid of change, afraid of staying the same When temptation calls, we just look away..." - Barenaked Ladies, "What A Good Boy" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 02:39:57 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 02:39:57 -0000 Subject: Tthe Prude with a Very Un-Prudish Question In-Reply-To: <20010822.220442.-418595.13.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9m1qdt+mja5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24741 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > After declaring myself a prude I am aghast at myself for posting the > following question, but it's BUGGING me. > > Isn't it awfully uncomfortable to be flying on a broom? Think into it. > Harry jerking up and down on this thin slab of wood... isn't it even > painful, especially during a violent Quidditch match, doing > "Wonky-Faints" and stuff? I can't imagine riding one, especially on wild > rides. (Perhaps that is why wizards rarely use them for transportation). > > Maybe the broom is a wide thing so it's not bothersome. Dunno. > > Forgive me for coming out of the prude closet. Jen Faulkner has given a complete answer to your factual question, but I think that your other question needs to be answered as well. It is not lewd to consider the physical effects of riding a broomstick over long periods with high accelerations and decelerations. It is a perfectly reasonable question. What I find unreasonable is to lable that very innocent speculation as somehow "dirty", merely because it concerns the nether regions of human beings. Just as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", "dirty" is solely in the mind of the prude-- self-confessed or not, in the closet or not. Haggridd From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 02:58:18 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <9m0h0i+83kg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010823025818.46161.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24742 Hello, --- fourfuries at aol.com wrote: > Bad guys, OTOH, believe that they are capable of > figuring every > possibility themselves. It is a damnable arrogance, > and the heart of > every plan to defeat them. If Voldemort were > actually as great as he > thinks he is, there would not be a story, because > Harry would be dead. Dammit, for once I'd like to see a villain who's sane, intelligent, and doesn't make ridiculous mistakes. He will *win*, for gods' sakes. And if he did not, it's because the hero defeated the villain in some sort of a competition/mindgame, not because the villain made some appallingly stupid mistake. Like...John Travolta's character in Swordfish or something. After all, what's the fun in beating something so apparently inferior than you are? Only the fight between equals is worth watching for. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 03:05:32 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 03:05:32 -0000 Subject: Tthe Prude with a Very Un-Prudish Question In-Reply-To: <9m1qdt+mja5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m1rts+as5i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24743 I have to agree with Haggrid on this one. Why is this a lewd thing to wonder about? It seems to me like a very practical matter of great logistical importance, like knowing where the ladies room is. Every part of the human anatomy is beautiful and deserving of a little tlc. What human being, male or female, would get a thrill out of being knocked in the nether regions while riding a broom? Ouuuuch! You want me to snatch a snitch with that kind of bumpety-bump? Ow! Ow! Ow! I am a naughty girl if there ever was one, and I am rather glad to know about the magical padding. Whew! There is a goddess. Saddle sore is one thing, but I have my limits. Returning to my comfy chandelier with my irridescent wand of pussy willow with thunderbird down, Suzanne From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 03:15:25 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 03:15:25 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <20010823025818.46161.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9m1sgd+snr6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24744 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > > Dammit, for once I'd like to see a villain who's sane, > intelligent, and doesn't make ridiculous mistakes. He > will *win*, for gods' sakes. And if he did not, it's > because the hero defeated the villain in some sort of > a competition/mindgame, not because the villain made > some appallingly stupid mistake. Like...John > Travolta's character in Swordfish or something. > > After all, what's the fun in beating something so > apparently inferior than you are? Only the fight > between equals is worth watching for. Here! Here! One of my disappointments about HP (which believe me does not interfere too much with the otehr pleasures I find in the series) is that I am still not convinced by ol' Moldy Voldy. He is too monsterous and snakelike on the one hand (not enough "like us" to give me real shivers) and he keeps making really dumb mistakes. I deeply wish that we could see his more human side, and see the complexity that would drive a man into such evil. I think we had a glimpse of that in CoS when we got to see him as Tom Riddle, a handsome young man who went completely wrong, but JKR seems to be moving him more toward the cartoon version of evil. Someone else commented that Lucius Malfoy is in fact scarier that V. I have to agree. It isn't beause he is "sane" exactly, but because he is cold, calculating, and knows a bit better when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em-- all of which makes him a more formidable opponent. I would NOT want to have to contend with Malfoy in any context. I think he does more damge with his sleight of hand than anyone could do with the Cruciatus curse. Look at what he did with Ginny. Sorry, but that is just zero at the bone, as Emily Dickinson phrased it. Cold, heartless, really scary and sinister. Mad all the more scary because he was in the shadows setting the whole thing in motion just by leaving the dairy in her book. Hisssssssssssssssssssssss. Is anyone else less than convinced by the Imperio and Cruciatus curses btw? They seem a bit mechanical to me. They actually don't make me fear the bad guys as much as, say, Malfoy's actions do. My two knuts, Suzanne From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 03:43:46 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 03:43:46 -0000 Subject: Evil Overlords, Psycho Voldie, the Foe Glass In-Reply-To: <3B8455EE.977420A0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9m1u5i+2rjf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24745 Pam:" Are you saying, by this quote, that you think Voldemort is insane? I've been pondering the issue of sanity in the villains for awhile, since the thread about Barty Crouch, Jr.'s sanity. I think Voldemort is narcissistic, sadistic, power hungry, angry...a whole host of things...but I believe he is perfectly sane. His reality contact is okay; he doesn't appear to be suffering from delusions or what would clinically be referred to as "disturbances in the content and/or process of thought." "Disturbances in the content and/or process of thought?" I'm stark, staring, barking mad by that standard. Volemort isn't a schizophrenic. He's a classic sociopath, another Hitler, Stalin, Ted Bundy, whatever. He possesses none of the limits most people do; he sees and treats people as objects, not human beings. Pawns. So he has so little empathy that he doesn't hesitate to kill or apply the Cruciatus Curse. And sociopaths are often capable of being charming and a good manipulator. From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 23 04:19:37 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 04:19:37 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <20010822054357.78171.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9m208p+i4fc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24746 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > Actually, I was miffed by Voldemort's (or Wormtail's, > or any of the bad guys') long speeches. I kept > thinking that they must not have read the evil > overlord list. > > little Alex The Evil Overlord list was meant as a joke, and IMO shouldn't be taken so seriously. It was in character for Voldemort [Wormtail, et al] to give the long speeches. It was appropriate. Voldemort's a megalomaniac. Megalomania being defined as: 1 : a mania for great or grandiose performance 2 : a delusional mental disorder that is marked by infantile feelings of personal omnipotence and grandeur This is not me trying to lord my brilliant vocab over the rest of the world -- I'm just posting it here so you know where I'm referring from, and why. It's perfectly in character for a megalomaniac to explain his grand scheme to the hero because in the megalomaniac's mind, the hero is defeated, powerless, and has no way whatsoever to make any sort of comeback. And in Voldie's view? He's surrounded by his Death Eaters. Lily Potter's dead so she can't protect Harry twice. Harry's out of his element, away from his protectors, and has just seen a classmate die before his eyes. He's only FOURTEEN. This would pretty much reduce any other kid to a quivering heap, but Harry's had three years of Voldemort-induced prep time. As for Wormtail? Sycophant. : a servile self-seeking flatterer He'd say anything that would serve him better. Telling his story bought him time wherein nobody was attempting to part his skin from the rest of him, and set him up for what he hoped were attempts to garner sympathy for his "plight" -- poor helpless Peter siding with Voldemort because he didn't believe the good guys would win. Poor Wormtail having needed help all his life, finally ending up in something like a position where he wouldn't have to fear, because his "friends" the Death Eaters would look out for him. That's what makes villains villainous. They're flawed. They have these huge personality flaws that make them act in ways that [as a reader] are laughable but make perfect sense to their skewed mindsets. Indigo From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 23 04:23:01 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 04:23:01 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <20010822064620.11414.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9m20f5+jvrl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24747 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > > I also rolled my eyes when Hermione lied during the troll episode > because the truth would've kept everyone from getting in trouble. > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie > Agreed. It seemed very silly for Hermione to not step right up and say: "Please, Professor, I was in the bathroom being upset, and did not know about the troll. Harry and Ron came to warn me, found the troll, and subdued him because they couldn't find a way to get the troll away from me." That would've probably gotten them scolded, and told they should've told a professor to go get Hermione, but it also would've got them commended for looking out for a classmate. And that would've sat as well with Harry and Ron as Hermione's fib did. The only reason I can think of was peer-pressure or something like it -- Hermione figured that if she could prove to the boys that she could occasionally stray from the straight and narrow they'd figure she was worth knowing even if she was a bookworm busybody know-it-all. Indigo From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 23 04:37:58 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 04:37:58 -0000 Subject: Evil Overlord Scorecard In-Reply-To: <9m0gj0+b1d6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m21b6+6hhq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24748 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Although I am sure that this subject has been discussed a lot, I > would give JKR an A- on handling the evil overlord problem inherent > in the plots of her books. > > In Book 1, Voldemort spills his guts before attacking Harry, but it > works because he is more pre-occupied with getting the stone, so > killing Harry without some chit-chat wouldn't accomplish it. B+ > Makes sense. Plus he's angry with having to depend on Quirrell and having to drink Unicorn blood to keep himself going. And rather than repress anger, he takes it out on Harry by verbalizing at him. Harry was the first handy target, and happened also to be the one with the cheddar. > In Book 2, Voldemort/Riddle shows himself to be really dumb, and is > explaining the whole plot to Harry in the Chamber for no apparent > reason. C Riddle was 16 at the time. Makes sense to me that a teenager would blab. Plus, he's got the ego even then that points to his megalomania as the Big V. later. And again, he feels he's dealt with ignominity [vis a vis Ginny's mewling into the journal] and wants to talk about it. Again, he believes he's in the major spot of advantage, and there's nothing Harry can do to save himself or stop Tom. > > In Book 3, no Voldemort, but we have the fabulous chapters in the > Shrieking Shack in which Lupin and Black talk endlessly about the > plot to make it all add up. Works very well, because they are trying > to convince Harry to believe them. Note that Pettigrew doesn't burst > forth with explanations, but snivels them out on cross- examination. > Very effective. A+ Exceptional, yes! And I think the casual stuff was just expedient. I'm sure Remus and Sirius sat down and had a good brotherly heart-to-heart at some point between the end of this book and the end of book 4. I believe they just did the "polite cartoon gophers" speech because it made clear they were friends again, and that neither one of them was going to fall for Pettigrew's sniveling; and that they both were going to make him pay for his betrayal. > > In Book 4, we have three evil overlord sequences. First, in the > graveyard, Voldemort needs to prove his power to his supporters, and > it would be too weird for all of the DEs to apparate to the graveyard > and not ask the obvious question "Where have you been and what took > you so long?" Second, we have the more unfortunate Mad-Eye Moody > confession/explanation -- a classic villian who is really screwing > up. Failing to kill Harry right away. No really good reason to be > saying all of this as Harry has no need to know any of it. Again, this is the whole villain perosnality flaw thing. He wants Harry to know why he's going to die. He wants Harry to know that Barty Jr. is doing this to please Voldemort. He believes himself beyond reproach insofar as Harry's "meager powers" can manage. Failing > to watch the door. Going back to his office where Dumbledore could > find him. Third, we have the Truth Serum sequence, which is fine. > The Graveyard gets an A, the Mad-Eye Moody sequence would get a D, > but I'll raise it to a B to reflect the degree of difficulty of > finding another way to do the scene, and the Truth Serum gets an A. Nice scoring, though. I am inclined to agree with you for the most part. :) Indigo From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Aug 23 04:52:23 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 06:52:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <9m1sgd+snr6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010823045223.89848.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24749 --- rainy_lilac at yahoo.com ha scritto:
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 04:53:24 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 04:53:24 -0000 Subject: Who's doomed In-Reply-To: <9iggb0+6skp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m2284+84qk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24750 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > This is a very interesting thread, but I wonder if people are making > some random speculations. One person even wrote that she/he "hoped" > one of the Weasleys would die! That made me feel sad. > I think Ginny Weasley is doomed. For whatever reason, she was chosen to receive Riddle's diary. Also, on the train in P of A, only two people are seriously affected by the dementor: Harry and Ginny, who was described as "shaking like mad," meaning the dementors were affecting her more than anyone but Harry. I think that means she has some sort of connection with Voldemort, and that is going to get her into trouble. Plus, from a dramatic viewpoint, killing off the only girl in a family with six boys and youngest child is tragic all by itself in a way. I, too, am convinced Lupin will die at Pettigrew's hand. Totally unfair, given that Lupin could have killed Pettigrew in PofA. But maybe, just maybe, Pettigrew is in debt to Harry, and won't be able to go through with killing Lupin. One can always hope, I suppose. The only characters who could be killed and not really upset me would be: Snape, McGonagle, Bagman, various Malfoys, Fleur, Krum, Trelawney. Deaths of any of the others would be hard to swallow, but I guess I'd survive. :) Cindy > I think JKR chooses the consequences extremely carefully throughout > the series. Just look at Cedric: the handsome, athletic, honest, > hardworking, always-gets-the-girl kind of guy, and he was the one to > be murdered in cold blood. Poor Harry; the guilt he'll always feel > for having witnessed this after always being a bit resentful and > envious of Good Cedric. Cedric didn't deserve to die, and Harry > certainly didn't deserve to witness it. I have students who have > witnessed murders; it has an everlasting and damaging effect on them. > > Why things happen is complicated, and I think JKR is anything but > random.. My point is, I'd like to hear why people think certain > characters will die. Most people have explained that well, but I'm > confused by other predictions. For example, why do people think a > Weasley will die? Is it simply because they are a large family and > one of them is expendable? Or do we believe that in the fight against > Voldemort, the Weasleys will be so deeply involved that one of them > will get in his way at the wrong place and time? Or is JKR trying to > make Harry suffer even more? > > I agree with everyone who said killing Sirius would be way too much. > I kind of think killing a Weasley would be too much as well - even > Percy (who always amuses me). I also like what someone said about > Snape dying while saving Harry, leading Harry to see Snape differently > (though I think he is starting to do that already). Dumbledore, too, > will definitely not survive (I will cry when I read that scene) for > reasons that have discussed ad nauseum. > > I'm not sure why people think Lupin will die. Or Cho. > > Just some thoughts on death on a hot summer evening. > > --jenny from ravenclaw, who feels special that Caius dedicated 2 filks > to me***************************************** From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 23 04:59:45 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 04:59:45 -0000 Subject: Tthe Prude with a Very Un-Prudish Question In-Reply-To: <20010822.220442.-418595.13.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9m22k1+j4t7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24751 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote: > After declaring myself a prude I am aghast at myself for posting the > following question, but it's BUGGING me. > > Isn't it awfully uncomfortable to be flying on a broom? Think into it. > Harry jerking up and down on this thin slab of wood... isn't it even > painful, especially during a violent Quidditch match, doing > "Wonky-Faints" and stuff? I can't imagine riding one, especially on wild > rides. (Perhaps that is why wizards rarely use them for transportation). > > Maybe the broom is a wide thing so it's not bothersome. Dunno. > > Forgive me for coming out of the prude closet. According to QTA, there are cushioning charms on the better brooms, and no doubt if Hermione can make Harry's glasses impervious, she can teach him a charm to protect his tender areas from Quidditch injury. Or, to take a leaf from the Muggles' book, he wears an athletic supporter? Indigo From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 05:18:54 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <9m208p+i4fc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010823051854.90371.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24752 Hello, --- Indigo wrote: > The Evil Overlord list was meant as a joke, and IMO > shouldn't be > taken so seriously. Just because it was meant as a joke doesn't mean it doesn't give some good advice. I think every villain who plans to take over the world should be forced to read through it, memorize it, and *follow* the instruction given. And...surely you don't think I took it seriously? > It was in character for Voldemort [Wormtail, et al] > to give the long > speeches. It was appropriate. It's also extremely cliched and while JKR, like other excellent writers, had taken cliches and given them new and fabulous twists, she failed in this case, imho. > Voldemort's a megalomaniac. I know what it means, and even if I don't, there are quite a number of good, online dictionaries. > It's perfectly in character for a megalomaniac to > explain his grand > scheme to the hero because in the megalomaniac's > mind, the hero is > defeated, powerless, and has no way whatsoever to > make any sort of > comeback. Probably, but it's also extremely boring for a reader who had read all of the other books carefully. Exposition we do not need. > And in Voldie's view? He's surrounded by his Death > Eaters. Lily > Potter's dead so she can't protect Harry twice. That bit I've always been okay with; a bit like a cat and mouse game, I think. > [snip Wormtail] He's always been a stupid, selfish, despicable bit that I don't care to contemplate. His greatest moment, as Sirius or Lupin had said, must've been betraying the Potters. I like villain with a grand scheme, without being grandiose. > That's what makes villains villainous. They're > flawed. No, that's what makes villains caricatures. Of course they're somewhat flawed; that's the nature of being human. But flawed doesn't necessarily mean having mental disorders and/or insane. I like them sane, brilliant, and even gorgeous. I like them lounging back and watching with a cold smile while someone else torture the hero with maniacal laughter. I might be able to accept that being dead/undead warped Voldemort's mind and made him the way he is right now, but if you tell me that how he was at his height of power and still have all those followers, I'm going to laugh you out of the room. Anyway, I think we should keep an eye on Lucius Malfoy. With Voldemort being the way he is, Lucius just might be able to manipulate the hell out of Voldemort. Probably get Voldemort to defeat the world *and then* give the guy a stab to his back and control the world himself. Or subtly using Voldemort as a puppet (so subtly that Voldemort won't realize it, of course). Now, *that* would be a villain. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From JenniferABacker at cs.com Thu Aug 23 06:20:54 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 02:20:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's doomed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24753 In a message dated 8/22/01 11:53:42 PM Central Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes: << For whatever reason, she [Ginny] was chosen to receive Riddle's diary. Also, on the train in P of A, only two people are seriously affected by the dementor: Harry and Ginny, who was described as "shaking like mad," meaning the dementors were affecting her more than anyone but Harry. >> Now I have a theory on this, and I'd like to know what others think about it. First, I think Ginny got the diary because the Malfoys hate the Weaslys, and Lucius saw a good opportunity and took it. I believe we dicussed this a bit awhile back. {It was more about how Lucius knew they'd be there though, IIRC.} Am I right in saying someone in PoA {I think it was Lupin} said something along the lines of "You went through some horrible things that would make any of us pass out. {said to Harry of course}. In CoS, Ginny went through a terrible time. Even more terrible for her it seems than it would be for say Hermione if it happened to her. Could that just be the reason she was "shaking like mad"? It was horrible for her and only happened a few months ago. Plus, she's pretty young. Anyone share similar thoughts? Forge From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Aug 23 07:09:42 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 07:09:42 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <20010823051854.90371.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9m2a7m+upf9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24754 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > --- Indigo wrote: > > The Evil Overlord list was meant as a joke, and IMO > > shouldn't be > > taken so seriously. > > Just because it was meant as a joke doesn't mean it > doesn't give some good advice. I think every villain > who plans to take over the world should be forced to > read through it, memorize it, and *follow* the > instruction given. > > And...surely you don't think I took it seriously? Not as such, but I was seeing so many references to it, it looked like people were giving it a bit more credit than was perhaps warranted. > > > It was in character for Voldemort [Wormtail, et al] > > to give the long > > speeches. It was appropriate. > > It's also extremely cliched and while JKR, like other > excellent writers, had taken cliches and given them > new and fabulous twists, she failed in this case, > imho. Fair enough. I've always believed that cliches become such because they started out with some modicum of truth and got blown out of proportion from there. > > > Voldemort's a megalomaniac. > > I know what it means, and even if I don't, there are > quite a number of good, online dictionaries. No offense intended. I just find that it helps stave off misunderstandings to make myself as clear as humanly possible the first time around. > > > It's perfectly in character for a megalomaniac to > > explain his grand > > scheme to the hero because in the megalomaniac's > > mind, the hero is > > defeated, powerless, and has no way whatsoever to > > make any sort of > > comeback. > > Probably, but it's also extremely boring for a reader > who had read all of the other books carefully. > Exposition we do not need. > Except JKR writes her books so that you can start with any one and get enough recapping to get you up to speed. She's not the only author who does it, either. Piers Anthony does it, Steven King, Brian Lumley. It's one of the "occupational hazards". > > And in Voldie's view? He's surrounded by his Death > > Eaters. Lily > > Potter's dead so she can't protect Harry twice. > > That bit I've always been okay with; a bit like a cat > and mouse game, I think. > > > [snip Wormtail] > > He's always been a stupid, selfish, despicable bit > that I don't care to contemplate. His greatest > moment, as Sirius or Lupin had said, must've been > betraying the Potters. > I agree wholeheartedly. > I like villain with a grand scheme, without being > grandiose. > > > That's what makes villains villainous. They're > > flawed. > > No, that's what makes villains caricatures. Of course > they're somewhat flawed; that's the nature of being > human. But flawed doesn't necessarily mean having > mental disorders and/or insane. Well, there are degrees of flaws and the level at which they change from personality quirks or traits to actual insanity, IMHO. I like them sane, > brilliant, and even gorgeous. I like them lounging > back and watching with a cold smile while someone else > torture the hero with maniacal laughter. > My problem with a sane villain is "why is he doing this if he's sane? The insane have lost their way, and thus their grasp of concepts like right and wrong, good and evil -- or at least have dramatically skewed views on same." If a villain is sane and knows the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, and chooses evil, that's still a major flaw, to my mind. > I might be able to accept that being dead/undead > warped Voldemort's mind and made him the way he is > right now, but if you tell me that how he was at his > height of power and still have all those followers, > I'm going to laugh you out of the room. I imagine at the height of his power he was probably powerful and charismatic, given that he had so many followers. Some of them were quite likely Pettigrew-class sycophants. But I doubt Lucius Malfoy would throw his lot in with the big V out of sheer sycophancy. I'm certain Lucius believed there was a prize to be had, and that if he stuck with Voldemort he'd get a slice of the pie. > > Anyway, I think we should keep an eye on Lucius > Malfoy. With Voldemort being the way he is, Lucius > just might be able to manipulate the hell out of > Voldemort. Probably get Voldemort to defeat the world > *and then* give the guy a stab to his back and control > the world himself. Or subtly using Voldemort as a > puppet (so subtly that Voldemort won't realize it, of > course). Now, *that* would be a villain. > Interesting idea. I would not be adverse to seeing it, but I don't get the feeling that's where JKR is going with this. I also think it'd be jarring for the younger readers to go from the Harry/Voldemort tension to Harry/Lucius. But anything's possible. We'll have to wait and see. From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 07:23:04 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 07:23:04 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <20010823045223.89848.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9m2b0o+oi0q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24755 I too look forward to OoP and I will read it with great pleasure and still have plenty of things to talk about, including what I find truly frightening and what I do not, and what makes a really convincing villian vs. what feels like stuff I have heard before. I have no doubt that whatever reservations I have, my love for the HP universe will override everything, as it probably does for all of us. Please understand: I am NOT bashing JKR or her characters. I LOVE these books. HP4GU, however, is a discussion group where we gather to discuss these books and where we get to dive into all kinds of nitpicky issues. I think these are books which are good enough to stand up to discussion. I think the issue of what really frightens us is a good one, a real one, and I think the points I brought up are at least legitimate and worthy of a thread. If not, move on. I know this will sound blasphemous to some, but I think the really deep and frightening parts of Rowling's stories lie outside and around Voldemort and the Unforgivable Curses. I don't think I am imposing anything on JKR's books by saying this. I think she intends that. I think Malfoy is MEANT to be a bone chillingly evil character, in a way that is very different than Voldie, and I think it is rather interesting to talk about this. I really think it is very rude to say that people should not be following a particular thread or discussing an idea just because doesn't interest you. This group is big and there is room for us all. It provides so many interesting threads, and if you don't like one in particular, you can always move on to another or start your own. It is three in the morning. Forgive me if this sounds rambly or tart tongued. I hope I have not offended anyone by speaking my mind. If people really want to change the subject, just do it. It's painless. I happen to have found this to be a rather lively and interesting thread though. I would hate to see it drip with cold water. Yours, Suzanne From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 07:28:47 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 07:28:47 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <9m2a7m+upf9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m2bbf+2phn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24756 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > > Hello, > > > > --- Indigo wrote: > > > The Evil Overlord list was meant as a joke, and IMO > > > shouldn't be > > > taken so seriously. > > > > Just because it was meant as a joke doesn't mean it > > doesn't give some good advice. I think every villain > > who plans to take over the world should be forced to > > read through it, memorize it, and *follow* the > > instruction given. > > > > And...surely you don't think I took it seriously? > > Not as such, but I was seeing so many references to it, it looked > like people were giving it a bit more credit than was perhaps > warranted. The Evil Overlord List is just one of those things that was so well- written, witty, and on target people are bound to cherish it and refer to it when they want to talk about Things That Made Them Groan. But you know what? It's all about love. We love those things that make us groan, don't we? *grins* The big irony is that this much beloved list has in its own weird way made the Evil Overlord new again. A little twisted, yes, but new. Someday someone will write a fantasy novel that really plays with this. An Evil Overloard who has carefully and hilariously read the list. --Suzanne From katzefan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 08:15:06 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:15:06 -0000 Subject: Singing Voldemort, Nimbus 2000, Innocence, eye rolling & more Message-ID: <9m2e2a+jlqd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24757 From:??"Caius Marcius" Subject:? Voldemort Sings --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > katzefan: > > Allyse: could've been worse - remember what Disney did to Mary Poppins? Try to envision a *singing* Voldemort. > > I am, and very amusing it is too. If I knew any of the twee >songs in Mary Poppins well enough, I'd attempt a filk (Just a >tune full of magic makes Lord Voldemort go down, tralala...) > >You must be new here. Over the past several months, my >fellow filkers and I have had the Dark Lord crooning to material >ranging from Gilbert & Sullivan to the Bee Gees, from Cole >Porter to the Lion King ... Voldy's high cold voice is especially >well suited to reaching those high falsetto notes in such songs >as "Staying Alive" or "Lightnin' Striking Again" (rendered as >Barely Alive and Dark Mark Striking Again on the website). With backup singers Darth Vader and Sauron, right? Caius Marcius, took a quick glance at your site (bookmarked it) and nearly fell off my chair laughing at `The V Word is Scaring Us'. Will get back ASAP and read the rest! Can anybody contribute if they can come up with something reasonably good? (Why do I think Gilbert and Sullivan would have loved to do a parody on this if they'd had the chance?) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Pam Hugonnet wrote: > Susanne Schmid wrote: > > --- prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > I have always wanted to know, -- and I checked the > > archives and see no mention of my question -- where > > did Harry's Nimbus 2000 come from? > > I believe that McGonagall tells Harry (either by note or in >person) that she ordered the broom and took the money form >his account (at Gringotts, presumably). I'd like to quote chapter >and verse, but my book is out on loan at the minute. > drpam > Actually, I just glanced through PS/SS and couldn't find any mention of who paid for it. I think drpam is getting this confused with the scene in which Sirius tells Harry he (Sirius) sent the Firebolt for Harry's birthday - "I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven - my own." --- In HPforGrownups at y..., vheggie at y... wrote: > Maybe I'm an anomoly, but my religious education lessons at >school in the UK taught me that the Anglican church typically >has three godparents; two the same sex as the child, and one >the opposite. Of course, there's always the possibility that >Sirius was the onlyGodparent to survive... Interesting. In the RC church (IF I've got this correct) a child gets one pair of godparents only (man and woman). They are often themselves a married couple, but I don't believe anything says they have to be - parents can pick a separate godmother and godfather if they wish. (Feel free to correct me, folks ...) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > Mindy, a.k.a. CLH said: > > > One of the lovingly refreshing things about the HP books is >that it is devoid of any lurid details and has absolutely zero >sexual innuendo or encounters. It makes it appropriate for >children to read as well. (etc.)> > Er, Mindy, the characters at the moment are FOURTEEN. They >are most unlikely to be having ANY sort of romantic relationship >at that time, having only just got over the "yuck, girls"/"yuck, >boys" stage. ...... IMO, Mindy, saying that the HP characters are >innocent is rather a naive attitude to take. I don't agree that the >characters in HP are innocent at ALL -- take Malfoy's bigoted, >racist attitudes towards Mudbloods; the Weasley's attitudes >towards the nearly-enslaved House Elves; the entire >community's treatment of Squibs; the complete lack of any sort >of justice system. > This is definitely getting into tetchy subject matter here. I agree with Mindy, inasmuch as I am fed up, yea verily unto the back teeth, with stories that offer a blow-by-blow description (OK, lousy pun) about people's private lives (I'm not voting for banning here; as John says, if you don't like it, don't read it). But John, I am myself a little puzzled by your assertion that `the characters at the moment are FOURTEEN.' Take a good look at some of the 12-year-old-girls-going-on-28 strolling around out there - many of whom, unfortunately, think they are far more streetwise than they really are. And innocence doesn't mean complete blandness or Goody-Two-Shoes-behaviour. I think many of the character flaws you mention are those of ignorance rather than deliberate malevolence (even Malfoy, at this stage - although he'll certainly follow in daddy's footsteps if someone doesn't manage to rein him in) - although I'm not offering that up as an excuse. Overall, I agree with everyone who pointed out that it's *how* JKR handles the subject that makes the books such wonderful reads. (Susan: I had to wonder about that `practicing inappropriate charms on a goat' as well. Perhaps Dumbledore's brother comes from one of those places where men are men and the sheep are nervous ....) > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > > cynthiaanncoe at h... said: > ...I'd say that about 98% of the characters and scenes worked >great, and that's quite an accomplishment. > And by the way, did every single thing in the books work for you, >or did you have your own eye-rollers? I can't remember any, actually. I can be very non-discerning, especially when I'm reading a book for the first time, unless something is so glaringly out of place or so hideously written that you can't possibly overlook it. (Yeah, Voldemort shouldn't have given Harry his wand back, but it's perfectly in keeping with his personality and ego -- he wants very, *very* much to trash this little creep who so damaged *him* over a decade ago, and he wants to do it publicly, in front of his followers, to make sure they understand who really is the more powerful. And, of course, he's literally incapable of even considering the possibility that such a young wizard could be any match for him.) However, I *really* loved Amber's take on that scene...."Feh" indeed! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > Harry is holding unto Cedric. > He is using his wand to "Accio" the Tri-wizard cup. > How does he catch the cup when both his hands are full of >things he does not want to leave behind? > > Marcus I always saw him shifting his grip on his wand so he could grab the cup with the same hand. Of course, that was before I saw the trailers, and how thick the wands were ... I had imagined them considerably thinner than that. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > Voldemort has built up this big legend amongst the wizarding > population about being this super smart and powerful dude, >and all along he is litle more than a thug with perhaps better >than average talent. Sooner or later some of his DE's are going >to notice this, I would think. I don't think it's accidental. You *don't* suppose -- NOT Lockhart's evil twin?!? katzefan, who wonders if she will work this hard on her schoolwork this year ------------------------------- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke (painted on the wall of the local Chapters bookstore) From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 08:28:23 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <9m2a7m+upf9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010823082823.72519.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24758 Hello, --- Indigo wrote: > My problem with a sane villain is "why is he doing > this if he's > sane? That's for the author to answer and convince you of. I'm trying to remember if there are any... Oh, yes, Anne Rice's vampires, especially Lestat. > dramatically skewed views on same." If a villain is > sane and knows > the difference between right and wrong, good and > evil, and chooses > evil, that's still a major flaw, to my mind. Flawed as in literary character flaw or morally flawed? I don't believe that people will automatically choose 'good' if given the choice. Of course, that's assuming there *is* good and evil in the first place. I fully believe that if 'evil' will reap more rewards without punishments, most people will go with the 'evil' choice instead of the 'good.' Well, at least I would. I think. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From tabouli at unite.com.au Thu Aug 23 09:40:26 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:40:26 +1000 Subject: Filks, sexual innuendo, hatred Message-ID: <008b01c12bb7$fc6d0fe0$7592aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 24759 Caius: > You must be new here. Over the past several months, my fellow filkers and I have had the Dark Lord crooning to material ranging from Gilbert & Sullivan to the Bee Gees, from Cole Porter to the Lion King. No Mary Poppins, though (both Harry and the Ministry of Magic have taken cracks at MP songs, however)< > Voldy's high cold voice is especially well suited to reaching those high falsetto notes in such songs as "Staying Alive" or "Lightnin' Striking Again" (rendered as Barely Alive and Dark Mark Striking Again on the website)< Hardly new: I've been around as Tabouli since June the 8th and as my real name with a different email address for several months before that... not a die-hard long-term devotee, but not a newbie. I just tend to skip over the filks because I usually don't know the song being parodied, which rather ruins the joke. Stayin' Alive I do know, though... perhaps I should glance over at your site. Mindy: > As for me writing about the 'zero sexual innuendo', read further on my original post. I wrote: GoF does have some things I found objectionable, including: Uranus, Molly snaping at Ron to go naked to the party, Harry 'bending his legs' so that Myrtle doesn't see 'anything' and Archie wanting a breeze around his.... whatever. The first three books, I could give a third grader to read. GoF... Dunno!< I find this perspective on sex rather bizarre, despite knowing a few people (mostly devout Christians) who share it. Why exactly are sex and sexual body parts so evil and corrupt and sinister and unmentionable and offensive?? Sure, Western society is getting a bit stupidly obsessed with sex, and sex can be a tool of abuse, but we all have genitals and our bodies *are* built for sex, after all. It *is* necessary for the continuation of the human race. I can't help wondering if this view is a leftover in English-speaking societies from the Victorian era, because even most major religions aren't quite this strident. Ever read Song of Solomon? There are lines in there about "You are a vine, and your breasts are clusters of grapes. I will climb the tree and pluck its fruit." And that's the pure, romantic sex bit in the Bible... there's much more racy stuff in there. I also very much doubt whether many third graders are completely innocent about sex. Children that age joke and whisper about Naughty Things all the time, "I'll show you mine if you show you yours" and the rest start younger than that. My parents are pretty prudish and embarrassable (I didn't know the "facts of life" until my father sidled shamefaced into my room when I was 10 with a book), but I was certainly aware of sex to some degree at 8, curious about where babies came from, etc. *and* got totally humiliated at that age by some older children (10-11ish) who discovered I "didn't know" and ridiculed me until I fled in tears. If I had children, I'd feel much, much happier about them having sex (I'm assuming that I succeed in educating them about how to do so safely, with minimum risk of pregnancy/disease and with sensitivity for their partners) than taking drugs, or getting close-to-alcohol-poisoning drunk (which our bodies *aren't* designed for), bullying other children, stealing, etc.etc. I'd also rather they didn't grow up with complexes about parts of their bodies being "bad", and nudity being bad, and sex being a dreadful sin, because even if they don't hold hands until they're married, they're going to come into contact with sex and probably have it at some stage in their lives. Diane: > Snape truly hates Harry. You can't fake that sort of thing and it should resonate nicely with the Big V Why can't you fake that sort of thing? You certainly could if the stakes were high enough. Besides which, it's not hard to convince a sensitive 13 year old that someone hates them, especially a strict teacher... Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 23 10:10:33 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 05:10:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eye Roll References: <20010823025818.46161.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B84D699.B28F3A95@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24760 "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > After all, what's the fun in beating something so > apparently inferior than you are? Only the fight > between equals is worth watching for. Hence our love of Snape..... He's not the villain of the piece, but he is definitely a major adversary, on our side or not. Snape's interactions with Harry and vice versa are compelling; Voldemort's interactions with Harry are remixed formula. Voldemort has always seemed a plot device to me, and Snape has seemed a character. If that makes sense. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From becky at mackenab.com Thu Aug 23 12:04:31 2001 From: becky at mackenab.com (becky at mackenab.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:04:31 -0000 Subject: Fiction type Message-ID: <9m2rgf+2hnq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24761 This may have been posted before- I have been reading the back messages but it is a rather daunting task. At any rate- all the discussion of sex and innocence has brought to mind a new thought. At heart, the Harry Potter books are at least in part romantic fiction. Romantic in the broadest sense of the word. She has characters that come down as evil or heroic to almost unbelievable degrees, there is a tragic hero, castles, dragons, and magic (of many sorts). It is also somewhat gothic with a number of plot elements relating to secret or mysterious pasts and locked rooms. This brings me to my point- when building literature, based to some extent, on authors such as Bronte and Austen, as well as the classic children's literature which she read as a child- could she even concieve to include sex as a prominent aspect of the plot? Particuarly, as she has said, she has such an easy time slipping back to her 12 year old state and, at least when I was twelve (not that long ago), I considered sex a rather vaugue odditity and based my daydreams on romantic ideals where the steamiest scenes involved boys throwing pebbles at my window and then serenading me. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Aug 23 12:37:30 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:37:30 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? Message-ID: <9m2teb+osjn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24762 Hi everybody, 1) to everybody who didn't like my matutine comment about the recent discussion: Sorry, I didn't mean to cut it off, I just thought it was an interesting phenomenon how we all were starting to get our favourite eye-rolling scenes out of the closet. 2) I think we all love JKR's detailed description and sometimes those details are really hilarious (Like Lockhart on his photos with his hair on rollers, the referee at the QWC flexing his muscles for the Veela etc.) I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite detail. My own is Snape, blasting apart the rose bushes at the Yule ball. Susanna/pigwidgeon37 From ebonyink at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 12:51:51 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:51:51 -0000 Subject: Romanticism and love in HP (was Re: Fiction type) In-Reply-To: <9m2rgf+2hnq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m2u97+k2kn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24763 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., becky at m... wrote: > This may have been posted before- I have been reading the back > messages but it is a rather daunting task. At any rate- all the > discussion of sex and innocence has brought to mind a new thought. > At heart, the Harry Potter books are at least in part romantic > fiction. Thanks for reiterating this, Becky. I posted about this, but it was nearly a year ago now. Anyone who knows anything about romanticism as a literary movement knows that modern fantasy (and dark fantasy, also called "horror") has many characteristics of that genre. Think of Coleridge's "Christabel" or "Phantom" or "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner". Think of Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein". Romanticism in English literature didn't just include love narratives. It also included themes of individual freedom and spontaneity, an emphasis on nature, glorification of the commonplace, the supernatural and the "dangers of beauty", infinite striving, apocalyptic expectations (because of the French Revolution, intellectuals in early 19th century England expected the same to happen in their country--but it never came), and an emphasis on the importance of the emotions. ALL of these themes are found in the HP books, even the "dangerous beauty" one. I don't know why people are so down on the idea of "love", though. Not only is there nothing wrong with romantic love (what the Greeks called "eros"), every type of love *save* the kind a million songs have been written about is in the books already. We've seen friendship in two generations, the love of parents for their children, and even sacrificial, unconditional love. I really think that increasing anti-romantic sentiment represents a general malaise and cynicism in our society. We have gotten so very warped until we don't even have a clear idea of what love is. Someday soon I am going to compose that post splicing the Harry Potter series with C.S. Lewis' tome "The Four Loves". Whatever you might think of Lewis, I like the way he dichotomizes love. Other languages have different words for the various kinds of loves... since we only have the one, it is natural for people to focus on the most "showy" of the loves (eros) and ignore phileos, storge, and the others. >This brings me to my point- when building literature, based to some extent, on authors such as Bronte and Austen, as well as the classic children's literature which she read as a child- could she even concieve to include sex as a prominent aspect of the plot? Particuarly, as she has said, she has such an easy time slipping back to her 12 year old state and, at least when I was twelve (not that long ago), I considered sex a rather vaugue odditity and based my daydreams on romantic ideals where the steamiest scenes involved boys throwing pebbles at my window and then serenading me.< LOL! No, I don't think that sex will be crucial to the plot in the Harry Potter books. We see only a fraction of what goes on at Hogwarts... just like we don't follow the characters to the loo or even knew they bathed until GoF, we don't have to necessarily see the awkward, rushed fumblings of teenagers onstage. Not only is it most likely not crucial to the narrative, there's nothing interesting about it IMO unless it's played for laughs... and JKR's sense of humor might not extend that far. What I do believe is that issues arising from adolescence very well might be crucial to the plot. JKR has also said the characters will not stay 12 forever. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From SoSilently at aol.com Thu Aug 23 13:00:07 2001 From: SoSilently at aol.com (SoSilently at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:00:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favourite details? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24764 In a message dated 8/23/2001 5:40:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it writes: > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite > detail. It probably should be considered a guilty pleasure, but I always enjoy it when JKR goes for the slapstick full force - like Hermione knocking Quirrell headfirst into the next row. The image of Quirrell in his turban going straight down into the crowd always gets me. ;) --chloe From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 13:21:46 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:21:46 -0000 Subject: Harry's Godmother In-Reply-To: <9m0hla+tlo9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m301a+4tbu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24765 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > My theory is that Harry's godmother is the next DADA teacher -- >Mrs. Figg. Makes sense. I've heard the next DADA teacher is a woman, and > Mrs. Figg has certainly been acting in a protective capacity toward > Harry for years. She obviously knows DADA if she has protected Harry at the Dursleys. I think Mrs. Figg will be central to Book 5. > > We'll see. > > Cindy BTW - (venturing into horrible rumor territory here)just how old IS Mrs. Figg? Could she be Dumbledore's sis? Or some kind of closer relative? And I have to amend my previous statement that Harry's godmother should be in her 30's - if Mrs. Figg is a part of the "old crowd" she could very well be Harry's godmother. I was just suffering a bit of age bias. Would love to see Mrs. Figg as the next DADA prof - and here Harry has thought all she was "good" for was cabbage and cats! From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 13:25:51 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 06:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favourite details? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010823132551.57702.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24766 I think my favorite detail would be _Quidditch through the Ages_. I love how she wrote the entire history of brooms, the evolution of broom sports, etc. "But ten of their number were fated to die." LOL! Another favorite is when Harry is trying to ask Cho to the ball. The throw-away line "Giggling should be illegal" shows great insight. Boris the Bewildered, the statue with gloves on the wrong hands, is a fun detail, too though I prefer the name Gregory the Smarmy. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 13:28:47 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:28:47 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m30ef+akdh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24767 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., SoSilently at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/23/2001 5:40:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > pigwidgeon37 at y... writes: > > > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite > > detail. Could anything be funnier than Neville's boggart? It starts out as Snape, then he imagines Snape dressed like his grandmother, complete with the vulture-topped hat. THEN, to top it off, Snape gets the Christmas cracker which emits the vulture-topped hat, which Dumbledore quickly claims for his own. My kids and I just crack up at this... --Barb From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 13:44:16 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:44:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favourite details? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24768 I'm especially fond of anything having to do with the Mirror of Erised. I'm not sure why....those scenes always tug at my heartstrings each time I read them. I even hunted down the Erised bookmark. (twice, since I tend to lose things) When Black and Lupin embraced like brothers at the end of PoA. It bowled me over the first time, and it bowls me over even now. It's also led to rampant speculation on Harry having two godfathers (yuk yuk yuk) which I find amusing to no end. And I agree with whoever mentioned Quidditch Through the Ages. Brilliant. It was like reading an actual textbook.....except that it was interesting. The fact that Rowling has so thoroughly worked out Harry's universe is strangely comforting to me. Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 13:43:11 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:43:11 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m2teb+osjn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m319f+lae8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24769 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite > detail. > Susanna/pigwidgeon37 I know that most everyone has listed a comic detail, but my favorite detail is from PoA, when Lupin finished the potion that Snape makes for him and...."The empty goblet was still smoking." Gives me the shivers each time. Denise/Magpie - who knew that Lupin was a werewolf the very first time I read his name (and still thought he'd be a cutie!) From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 23 13:46:49 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:46:49 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m30ef+akdh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m31g9+l49h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24770 > > > > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite > > > detail. > Lockhart's dwarf, sitting on Harry's legs to deliver his singing valentine, while 'some people were crying with mirth'. When I was reading CoS for my DH (who doesn't like to read, but loves being read to), I was laughing so hard I had to hand the book over and ask him to do it himself. Bente From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 13:47:48 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 06:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Villians Message-ID: <20010823134748.11435.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24771 While it's a good thing Voldemort has never read the Evil Overlord list , it's never struck me as stupid or cliched etc. that any of the bad guys have gloated or tell all they know. In real life, criminals do it all the time. That's why wiretaps are productive and confidential informants can help the police. What's more, petty tyrants gloat all the time. And they get caught. [For example, a local woman was fired from a government office. The encumbant came up to her desk to tell her. She asked him if it was because she had a bumpersticker on her car supporting the opposing party. He said "That's not what'll go in the records, but yes". She showed him her activated tape recorder and said "See ya in court".] Why should it be surprising major tyrants like Voldemort fall into the same mindset? Overconfidence is the root of every person's downfall. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 13:54:24 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:54:24 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m31g9+l49h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m31ug+ei9n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24772 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > > > > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a > favourite > > > > detail. > > > > Lockhart's dwarf, sitting on Harry's legs to deliver his singing > valentine, while 'some people were crying with mirth'. When I was > reading CoS for my DH (who doesn't like to read, but loves being read > to), I was laughing so hard I had to hand the book over and ask him > to do it himself. > > Bente Favorite detail? There are so many! My favorites include Sirius Black's name, "Wannagoballwitme?", "Draco the bouncing ferret," Black allowing Snape's head to scrape the ceiling, "We attacked a teacher!", Sirius living off of rats to keep an eye on Harry, Aunt Marge getting her comeuppance. For some reason, I really like all of the fainting scenes. There are quite a few, and something about it strikes a chord. I guess it is the vulnerability a character (particularly Harry) has when he faints. From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 23 14:02:56 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:02:56 -0000 Subject: Who's doomed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m32eg+93br@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24773 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JenniferABacker at c... wrote: > In a message dated 8/22/01 11:53:42 PM Central Daylight Time, > cynthiaanncoe at h... writes: > > << For whatever reason, she [Ginny] was chosen > to receive Riddle's diary. Also, on the train in P of A, only two > people are seriously affected by the dementor: Harry and Ginny, who > was described as "shaking like mad," meaning the dementors were > affecting her more than anyone but Harry. >> > Now I have a theory on this, and I'd like to know what others think about it. > First, I think Ginny got the diary because the Malfoys hate the Weaslys, and > Lucius saw a good opportunity and took it. I believe we dicussed this a bit > awhile back. {It was more about how Lucius knew they'd be there though, IIRC.} > Am I right in saying someone in PoA {I think it was Lupin} said something > along the lines of "You went through some horrible things that would make any > of us pass out. {said to Harry of course}. In CoS, Ginny went through a > terrible time. Even more terrible for her it seems than it would be for say > Hermione if it happened to her. Could that just be the reason she was > "shaking like mad"? It was horrible for her and only happened a few months > ago. Plus, she's pretty young. Anyone share similar thoughts? > Forge This makes sense to me. Now, if I were writing it, I'd kill off one of the twins. (Sorry, Forge!) There are a couple of reasons why this makes sense (to me at least). They're close to Harry, but not as close as Ron and Hermione; losing one of them would be very hard, but not absolutely devastating. Secondly, there are two of them, without distinctly separate personalities, so in a way there's a 'spare', as Voldemort would say. (Shiver!) Thirdly, for the surviving twin it would be the hardest thing in the world to lose his 'other half', which would bring home (once again) the evil of it all. Unlike many of you (I gather) I'd also feel the need to kill off Sirius Black; he's the one who's supposed to protect Harry, so he's a logical person to get killed, plus I somehow feel that Harry has to be stripped, so to speak, of his surrogate father as well as his biological parents by the end of the series. He has to come into his own as an adult, and I think Sirius has to go for this to be accomplished. But this is just my opinion, never to be humble, and JKR consistently proves me wrong, so I'm probably as wide off the mark about this as I am about most of my other predictions. No better than Sibyll Trelawney, in fact! Bente From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 14:04:01 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:04:01 -0000 Subject: Eye Roll In-Reply-To: <9m2b0o+oi0q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m32gh+8bvh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24774 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > > > > I too look forward to OoP and I will read it with great pleasure and > still have plenty of things to talk about, including what I find > truly frightening and what I do not, and what makes a really > convincing villian vs. what feels like stuff I have heard before. I > have no doubt that whatever reservations I have, my love for the HP > universe will override everything, as it probably does for all of us. > > Please understand: I am NOT bashing JKR or her characters. I LOVE > these books. HP4GU, however, is a discussion group where we gather to > discuss these books and where we get to dive into all kinds of > nitpicky issues. I think these are books which are good enough to > stand up to discussion. I think the issue of what really frightens us > is a good one, a real one, and I think the points I brought up are at > least legitimate and worthy of a thread. If not, move on. > > I know this will sound blasphemous to some, but I think the really > deep and frightening parts of Rowling's stories lie outside and > around Voldemort and the Unforgivable Curses. I don't think I am > imposing anything on JKR's books by saying this. I think she intends > that. I think Malfoy is MEANT to be a bone chillingly evil character, > in a way that is very different than Voldie, and I think it is rather > interesting to talk about this. > > I really think it is very rude to say that people should not be > following a particular thread or discussing an idea just because > doesn't interest you. This group is big and there is room for us all. > It provides so many interesting threads, and if you don't like one in > particular, you can always move on to another or start your own. > > > > It is three in the morning. Forgive me if this sounds rambly or tart > tongued. I hope I have not offended anyone by speaking my mind. > > If people really want to change the subject, just do it. It's > painless. I happen to have found this to be a rather lively and > interesting thread though. I would hate to see it drip with cold > water. > > Yours, > > Suzanne As the person who started the whole "eye roll" business, I feel I should perhaps explain myself. I'm new to the board, so I don't know everything has transpired in the past. After reading much of the analysis, predictions, interviews with JKR, however, I noticed that no one seemed troubled by some of the plot devices that didn't work well for me. So I thought I'd ask about "eye rolls." Personally, I find discussion of what "works" and what didn't work interesting and helpful. Hearing theories about why something that didn't work for me was really an essential plot device has made me appreciate the books even more. Although I'm still not sold on the house elves' dialect. :) Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 14:16:09 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:16:09 -0000 Subject: Is JKR going to kill Harry or not? Message-ID: <9m3379+6ac0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24775 In a few interviews I read, JKR said a few times something like "What makes you think Harry is going to survive for anything past the seventh book" or words to that effect. I assume this has been discussed before (although I can't find anything about it on this site). So what's the consensus of opinion? Is JKR going to kill Harry in some final showdown with Voldemort, or not? From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 23 14:34:55 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:34:55 -0000 Subject: Tthe Prude with a Very Un-Prudish Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m34af+r6e5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24776 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jen Faulkner wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Mindy, a.k.a. CLH wrote: > > > Isn't it awfully uncomfortable to be flying on a broom? Think into it. > > Harry jerking up and down on this thin slab of wood... isn't it even > > painful? > Magical brooms, unlike the Muggle variety, are enchanted to make riding > comfortable. According to QTA (Amer. ed., pp. 47f.), Elliot Smethwyck > invented the Cushioning Charm in 1820 which provides a sort of invisible > seat According to QTA, the original brooms were quite uncomfortable. "Records show that witches and wizards in Europe were using flying bromsticks as early as 962 AD. A German illustrated manuscript of this period shows three warlocks dismounting from their brooms with looks of exquisite discomfort on their face. Guthrie Lochrin, a Scottish wizard writing in 1107, spoke of the 'splinter- filled buttocks and bulging piles' he suffered after a short broomride from Montrose to Arbroath." (p.2 in the American edition) - CMC From belinda at sawyertech.com Thu Aug 23 15:02:01 2001 From: belinda at sawyertech.com (belinda at sawyertech.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:02:01 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m2teb+osjn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m35t9+o2um@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24778 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite > detail. I love everything about Quidditch. I think the whole concept is brilliant - the bludgers, the snitch - I'm just in awe. I wish it were true, so I could go watch. Belinda contenting herself with weekly highlights from Aussie Rules Football (which seems to have Beaters and Chasers, if no brooms or snitch) but really wishing to be a Chaser for the Holyfield Harpies. From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Aug 23 16:16:18 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:16:18 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m2teb+osjn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3a8i+upes@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24779 The very brief scene in PoA where Harry and Ron are toasting bread and muffins in the Gryffindor Common Room fireplace. It reminded me of the paragraph in "Pickwick Papers" where Dickens describes the same thing. Milz From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 23 16:27:29 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:27:29 -0000 Subject: Just a Dabblin' of Dark Arts (filk) In-Reply-To: <9m10b9+i6e5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3ath+75ig@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24780 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > > katzefan: > > > > > Allyse: could've been worse - remember what Disney did to Mary > Poppins? Try to envision a *singing* Voldemort. > > > > I am, and very amusing it is too. If I knew any of the twee songs > in Mary Poppins well enough, I'd attempt a filk (Just a tune full of > magic makes Lord Voldemort go down, tralala...) Just a Dabbling of Dark Arts Dedicated to Tabouli & Allyse (To the tune of Just a Spoonful of Sugar, from Mary Poppins) Enter VOLDEMORT and a CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS. VOLDEMORT When we're out killing everyone There is an element of fun We find when dealing death The hunt's a joy The newest task of my misrule Is to demolish Hogwarts School A curse! A hex! We'll frolic in its wrecks! ALL Just a dabblin' of Dark Arts will help Dumbledore go down Dumbledore go down Dumbledore go down Just a dabblin' of Dark Arts will help Dumbledore go down In a most demonic way! VOLDEMORT Fudge, while you're feathering your nest Azkaban will reposessed Dementors great and small Will dance a jig They're so malign in their pursuit If there are merry thoughts to mute They know they're strong Once they ally with Wrong! ALL Just a dabblin' of Dark Arts will help Dumbledore go down Dumbledore go down Dumbledore go down Just a dabblin' of Dark Arts will help Dumbledore go down In a most destructive way! VOLDEMORT I'd like to wring him by his neck, or Worse, that prot?g? of his That 14-year-old with his mother's eyes If Dumbledore cannot protect It will be then, I now suspect, Past tense I'll make That Harry Potter flake . ALL Just a dabblin' of Dark Arts will make Dumbledore go down Dumbledore go down Dumbledore go down Just a dabblin' of Dark Arts will make Dumbledore go down In a diabolic way! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From tillrules at aol.com Thu Aug 23 16:39:16 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:39:16 EDT Subject: First post.... Message-ID: <121.31e1ebb.28b68bb4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24781 So be gentle. :) After two days of reading everybody's insights I decided to give my takes on a couple of the subjects being discussed. 1) Voldemort's bragging and "stupidity": This, to me, is JKRs way of keeping the sides even. She needs to allow Harry to stay even with a creature that is more powerful and skilled than he is. They cannot be equal yet, else the concept of Harry growing as a wizard (a natural theme in a book about shcooling) is sort of moot. He needs to be growing towards the final even fight with Voldemort. hence, JKR has to make Voldemort make mistakes on occasion to keep the battles even since if he was perfect, Harry'd have been dead in Book I. 2) On sex: Personally, I find myself uncomfortable with the thought of an on screen depiction of sex between the characters. I've read a couple of fan fics which seemed lead that way, but personally, I like the emphasis on the romantic nature of the relations of the characters rather than an emphasis on the eventual results. To be honest (having been a 14 year old boy once) I'm pretty sure a large part of Harry's thoughts about Cho (in a real world setting) or any of the girls, including Hermione, would be sexual. I prefer that JKR keeps the emphasis on romantic attraction rather than sexual, even though that is implicit in the attractions. 3) Favorite "detail" : Harry thinking he could form the worlds biggest patronus after they win the Quidditch cup. I loved the use of a major plotline in the book (Harry's ability or lack thereof to form a proper patronus) in a setting where it's not expected. 4) Mrs. Figg: I'm guessing that she's a peer of Dumbledorr, not Sirius & Lupin from an age perspective. My reading of "the old gang" is that it seems to relate to a group which opposed Voldemort together, not simply the school peers of James & Lily Potter. Also doesn't Mr. Weasely (who, we can presume is a few years older than James & Lily, since he & Mrs. W also met at Hogwarts and have a son several years older than Harry) refer to Mundungus Fletcher, another member of the "old gang" as being "old" when he mentions him? From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 17:10:16 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:10:16 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m31ug+ei9n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3ddo+pbql@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24782 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > > > > > > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a > > favourite > > > > > detail. > > > > > I am awestruck at JKR's puns: On the MoM post the QWC: "It's been an absolute uproar," Percy told them ... "I've been putting out fires all week. People keep sending howlers, and of course, if you don't open a howler right away, it explodes. Scorch marks all over my desk and my best quill reduced to cinders." -- Goblet of Fire, Ch. 10 Stephanie From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 17:26:35 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:26:35 -0000 Subject: Wands and wandless magic In-Reply-To: <9m1a40+8qvc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3ecb+gree@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24783 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Cynthia:"A couple of wand questions: > > First, where is Pettigrew's wand? I personally think it got blown > up or lost) when he blew up the street. That explains why Pettigrew > is using Voldemort's wand all the time (except for the time he used > Lupin's wand to stun Ron and Crookshanks)." > > Good question. Your explanation might well be the right one, but it > could be that Pettrigrew had to hide it when he assumed rat form and > has lost it or been unable to return to it in all this time. He > spent years with the Weasley family, you know. A couple of questions. Do we know for certain that Pettigrew doesn't have his wand? In PoA, he dives for Lupin's wand, but that could just have been because it was easier to get at than his own, which could have been secreted in a pocket in his robes somewhere. I haven't the time to trawl through all the references in GoF, but I am not sure if there is evidence that Pettigrew doesn't have a wand here, either. I know he uses Voldemort's to kill Cedric, but it is possible that this was for plot development, seeing as Cedric had to come out of Voldemort's wand during Priori Incantatem, so he would be able to ask Harry to take his body back to his parents. Pettigrew could obviously have had his wand with him throughout the duration of his life as a rat - he would not have thrown it away, and would have had it when he transformed and blew up the street during his confrontation with Sirius. I have always assumed that Animagi do keep their wands when they transform by putting them in their robes for safe keeping - afterall, their robes transform as part of themselves - they don't transform back stark naked, do they? It also seems unlikely that Pettigrew lost his wand during his Weasley pet period, because as far as we know, he remained in rat form the whole time. I am also wandering how he overpowered Bertha Jorkins - with or without wand? Did he steal her's and use it against her? Another explanation is that Voldemort, in order to humiliate Pettigrew and keep him in line, has confiscated it. This seems quite probable to me - ensuring that Pettigrew can only do magic in order to help/serve Voldemort, and not for any other purpose. Catherine From vheggie at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 18:15:09 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:15:09 -0000 Subject: The dark mark & Sirius Message-ID: <9m3h7d+dod6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24784 This dialogue occurs towards the end of Chapter Twenty Seven (Padfoot Returns) in GoF >"Yeah, you should've seen Snape's face when Karkaroff turned up in Potions yesterday!" said Harry quickly. "Karkaroff wanted to talk to Snape, he says Snape's been avoiding him. Karkaroff looked really worried. He showed Snape something on his arm, but I couldn't see what it was." He showed Snape something on his arm?" said Sirius, looking frankly bewildered. He ran his fingers distractedly through his filthy hair, then shrugged again. "Well, I've no idea what that's about. . . but if Karkaroff s genuinely worried, and he's going to Snape for answers ..."< This puzzled me - does Sirius not know that the Dark Mark appears on the arms of the Death Eaters? Is this not common knowledge (you'd've thought that all the trials would have brought this to light)? Or perhaps he's not aware that Snape was a Death Eater (again - you'd've thought that the trials would be common knowledge - or was Snape tried after Sirius went to Azkaban?) Any other thoughts? From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 18:16:33 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:16:33 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m2teb+osjn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3ha1+t58r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24785 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite > detail. My own is Snape, blasting apart the rose bushes at the Yule > ball. > > Susanna/pigwidgeon37 Mine is the triple pun over the lost pub from PS/SS, The Hogs Head. It carries a on the "Hog..." theme, it is the head of a hog, after all, and a hogshead is a big container of ale and such equal to three barrels in volume. I never understod why JKR abandoned it on favor of The three Broomsticks-- no pun there at all. Haggridd From vheggie at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 18:22:32 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:22:32 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m3ha1+t58r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3hl8+ubbs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24786 > > Mine is the triple pun over the lost pub from PS/SS, The Hogs Head. > It carries a on the "Hog..." theme, it is the head of a hog, after > all, and a hogshead is a big container of ale and such equal to three > barrels in volume. I never understod why JKR abandoned it on favor of > The three Broomsticks-- no pun there at all. > Possibly because 'Hogshead' is the name of a chain of pubs in the UK - I really dislike the name, since it reminds me of faux-retro bars in city centres, and not the proper wood-beamed/Horse-brass- decorated pubs of a small village. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 18:39:47 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:39:47 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m2teb+osjn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3ilj+kihu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24787 Susanna wrote: > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite > detail. It's impossible to pick a single favorite, but the one that comes ot mind is Harry looking out Ron's window and seeing the gnomes sneaking back into the garden. I laugh uncontrollably every time I read that. Great question, Susanna! I'm looking forward to reading what everyone's favorite bits are. Amy Z From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 19:04:50 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:04:50 -0000 Subject: Wands and wandless magic In-Reply-To: <9m3ecb+gree@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3k4i+dpma@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24788 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > Cynthia:"A couple of wand questions: > > > > First, where is Pettigrew's wand? I personally think it got blown > > up or lost) when he blew up the street. That explains why > Pettigrew > > is using Voldemort's wand all the time (except for the time he used > > Lupin's wand to stun Ron and Crookshanks)." > > > > Good question. Your explanation might well be the right one, but it > > could be that Pettrigrew had to hide it when he assumed rat form > and > > has lost it or been unable to return to it in all this time. He > > spent years with the Weasley family, you know. > > A couple of questions. Do we know for certain that Pettigrew doesn't > have his wand? In PoA, he dives for Lupin's wand, but that could > just have been because it was easier to get at than his own, which > could have been secreted in a pocket in his robes somewhere. > > I haven't the time to trawl through all the references in GoF, but I > am not sure if there is evidence that Pettigrew doesn't have a wand > here, either. I know he uses Voldemort's to kill Cedric, but it is > possible that this was for plot development, seeing as Cedric had to > come out of Voldemort's wand during Priori Incantatem, so he would be > able to ask Harry to take his body back to his parents. > > Pettigrew could obviously have had his wand with him throughout the > duration of his life as a rat - he would not have thrown it away, and > would have had it when he transformed and blew up the street during > his confrontation with Sirius. I have always assumed that Animagi do > keep their wands when they transform by putting them in their robes > for safe keeping - afterall, their robes transform as part of > themselves - they don't transform back stark naked, do they? > > It also seems unlikely that Pettigrew lost his wand during his > Weasley pet period, because as far as we know, he remained in rat > form the whole time. > > I am also wandering how he overpowered Bertha Jorkins - with or > without wand? Did he steal her's and use it against her? > > Another explanation is that Voldemort, in order to humiliate > Pettigrew and keep him in line, has confiscated it. This seems quite > probable to me - ensuring that Pettigrew can only do magic in order > to help/serve Voldemort, and not for any other purpose. > > Catherine Catherine, I don't think it is possible that Pettigrew has a wand in the shrieking shack. If so, Lupin and Sirius would have been aware of this possibility and immediately disarmed Pettigrew with Expelliarmus. I haven't reviewed all of the discussions about whether Animagi take their wands with them, and I don't recall much in the books about it either way. We don't know if McGonnagle has a wand when she transforms from a cat early in Book 1. Sirius doesn't have a wand because he's been in Azkaban, and he doesn't have one in Book 4 because he can't just go to Diagon Alley and buy one. Maybe a wand is a magical item that can't transform with the animagi. But we know a wizard does magic poorly with another wizard's wand, we know Pettigrew is "talentless and can use all the help he can get" so would be more effective using his own wand, we know P can't just walk into a shop and buy another one, so I figure Pettigrew is using V's wand because P's wand was blown up when P dropped it to transform and he hasn't obtained a new one -- yet. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 19:13:08 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:13:08 -0000 Subject: The dark mark & Sirius In-Reply-To: <9m3h7d+dod6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3kk4+euim@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24789 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., vheggie at y... wrote: > > > This puzzled me - does Sirius not know that the Dark Mark appears on > the arms of the Death Eaters? Is this not common knowledge (you'd've > thought that all the trials would have brought this to light)? > Or perhaps he's not aware that Snape was a Death Eater (again - > you'd've thought that the trials would be common knowledge - or was > Snape tried after Sirius went to Azkaban?) > > Any other thoughts? I had never considered this until you mentioned it. I think the answer could be that before V fell, suspected Dark Wizards were sent to Azkaban without trials. Also, Sirius tells us the Aurors (on Crouch's authority) were allowed to kill rather than bring people in alive. So that suggests the trials didn't happen until after V fell. Information about things like the Dark Mark not well known until the trials, and by then, Sirius was already in Azkaban. After all, if the DM is used to summon Dark Wizard's at V's command, Dark Wizards probably wouldn't advertise the fact that they have it, and would probably have preferred that it be kept secret. From leigh_brady at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 19:27:17 2001 From: leigh_brady at yahoo.com (leigh_brady at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:27:17 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m31g9+l49h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3lel+fii7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24790 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > > > > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a > favourite > > > > detail. > > > > Lockhart's dwarf, sitting on Harry's legs to deliver his singing > valentine, while 'some people were crying with mirth'. When I was > reading CoS for my DH (who doesn't like to read, but loves being read > to), I was laughing so hard I had to hand the book over and ask him > to do it himself. > > Bente Every time I read that part I am overcome with laughter. The first time I read it I started laughing so hard I was crying and my husband came over to me to see if I was alright! The dwarf is my favorite part for sheer silliness. On a more serious note my favorite part is where Black asks Harry to come and live with him at the end of PoA. I love the entire scene in the Shreiking Shack, but that is my favorite conversation out of the entire book. Leigh From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 19:28:29 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:28:29 -0000 Subject: New thought, old topic In-Reply-To: <3B43D7E7.9756C624@texas.net> Message-ID: <9m3lgu+6ref@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24791 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Well, one can only hope it's a new thought. > > My husband is just about through PoA (rejoice with me!), and in casting > a glance over at him as he was reading, I noticed he was at the scene in > Snape's office, just after Draco has reported seeing Harry's head in > Hogsmeade. It was the part where he's discussing the map with Lupin. > > I had posted before, eons ago, my problem with this scene--if Snape > knows who the authors of the map are, then his questions to Lupin seem > very odd and veiled and not in character. If he doesn't, how does he > know enough to be worried that Harry got the map directly from the > manufacturers? I could never resolve this. > > But I had a new thought. Snape pretty clearly does not know *who* Moony, > Padfoot, Wormtail, and Prongs were. But they were using those nicknames > "internally" while still at school. So it occurred to me that it was > abundantly likely that Snape had had jokes or tricks or amusing hexes or > something played/cast on him that were signed or identified by those > aliases. He knows those names, indeed, from past days, and I'll bet his > past experience with those names is what leads him to think the map is a > danger and/or Harry's obtaining it from the makers is bad. > > *However,* I'll bet he has no idea who the real people behind those > aliases are, which is why he could speak that way to Lupin, as if he had > no idea. He didn't. But he *had* seen the four aliases before. > > This is borne out in the conversation between Lupin, Harry, and Ron > immediately after they leave Snape's office. Harry asks, "Why did Snape > think I'd got it from the manufacturs?" and Lupin answers, "Because > those manufacturers would have wanted to lure you out of the school" > (paraphrasing a bit). The implication is clear that Lupin knows two > things: (a) that Snape knew both the names and the character of the > mapmakers, and (b) that Snape didn't know Lupin himself was one. This > implies a bit of past history. > > So I'm throwing out to the group my theory that Snape had had prior > experience, probably bad, with jokes or other stuff from "Moony, > Padfoot, Wormtail, & Prongs," recognized those names, and considered > them a danger and possibly affiliated with dark magic. BUT, Snape did > not know *who* Moony, Padfoot, Wormtail, or Prongs actually *were,* > which explains the way he discusses the map and the manufacturers with > Lupin the way he does. Nothing in Snape's manner indicates he had any > idea that Lupin was one of those mapmakers; he consulted him because he > was the DADA teacher and a pro in the field. > > So, have I explained the oddness? It seems right to me. > > --Amanda, excited about maybe explaining something! Amanda, you should be excited, because I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm reviving this post because I have one extra idea to make your theory work. I suggest that the reason that Snape calls Lupin has something to do with the joke Sirius played on Snape to cause Snape to almost run into Lupin/werewolf in the Shrieking Shack. Perhaps the joke was played using the Marauder's Map. Sirius had betwitched the map to tip Snape off about Lupin, using the same sort of charm that caused it to insult Snape. So when Snape sees these same nicknames insulting him, he calls Lupin. Snape summons Lupin not because Lupin is the DADA teacher (Snape doesn't even respect Lupin enough to give him the satisfaction of seeking Lupin's advice). Rather, Snape summons Lupin because Snape thinks Lupin was "in on the joke" the last time Snape saw the Marauder's Map and can explain why the map is behaving the same way it did when Snape was tricked long ago. This also makes sense when we are told that Lupin is doing some very fast thinking. He is piecing together that Snape has seen the map before, that it was the source of the joke, etc. Nice work, Amanda. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 23 19:36:46 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:36:46 -0000 Subject: Why Did Sirius Play the Joke on Snape? Message-ID: <9m3m0e+ovri@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24792 In PoA, we are told that Sirius plays a "joke" on Snape that could have gotten Snape killed by following Lupin to the Shrieking Shack. I have always had trouble with this. Lupin was lucky to be admitted to Hogwarts in the first place, and elaborate protections have been put in place so Lupin can attend school. Wizards don't like werewolves, and Lupin is keeping it quiet that he's a werewolf. Lupin is one of Sirius' best friends. Sirius knows all of these things, is smart, and is at least a fifth year student. So why in the world would Sirius deliberately set up a situation where Lupin, one of his best friends, kills someone and would thereby be expelled or worse? And why doesn't Lupin show any signs of ever having been at all peeved about being used like this? Any thoughts? Cindy From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 23 20:14:44 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:14:44 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Inappropriate_charms_=96_Dark_Mark_=96_SB_on_SS?= Message-ID: <9m3o7k+phs2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24793 Katzefan wrote: >(Susan: I had to wonder about that `practicing >inappropriate charms on a goat' as well. Perhaps Dumbledore's >brother comes from one of those places where men are men >and the sheep are nervous ....) I think JKR *is* offering an off-color joke to the adults with this line, one that will go over the heads of children. However, the children's interpretation is probably actually the correct one: inappropriate charms means just that, charms that are deemed verboten by the Misuse of Magic Office because they're risky or cruel or likely to attract the attention of Muggles. E.g., Aberforth D. might have charmed it to shoot sparks out of its horns or dance en pointe. There are lots of nonsexual possibilities, but JKR words it the way she does (and chooses a suggestive animal like a goat) because she knows adult readers' minds will go to the Muggle version of inappropriate behavior vis a vis goats. Vanessa wrote: >This puzzled me - does Sirius not know that the Dark Mark appears on >the arms of the Death Eaters? Is this not common knowledge (you'd've >thought that all the trials would have brought this to light)? Or perhaps he's not aware that Snape was a Death Eater (again - you'd've thought that the trials would be common knowledge - or was Snape tried after Sirius went to Azkaban?) This passage, IMO, is convincing evidence that the Dark Mark is not usually visible. Sirius has known all too many Death Eaters?surely he would have picked up this bit of info during 12 years in Azkaban if the DM were visible, even though I doubt Azkaban has a weight room. Likewise, I think the use of the DM tattoo is a closely kept secret, known only to DEs and the people it's been leaked to (e.g. I'm sure Snape has told Dumbledore). Sirius definitely doesn't know that Snape was a Death Eater. He speculates on the possibility in that chapter, and rejects it because he thinks Dumbledore would never have hired an ex-DE (wrong). This also tells us that if Snape was the spy who tipped off Lily and James, Sirius isn't aware of it (well, we already knew that from PoA). Basically, poor heroic Severus is unsung by the other heroes of the first struggle against Voldemort, and I'm looking forward to Sirius's coming to give him his due. Amy Z From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 20:35:10 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:35:10 -0000 Subject: Inappropriate charms In-Reply-To: <9m3o7k+phs2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3pdu+6u0o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24794 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Katzefan wrote: > > >(Susan: I had to wonder about that `practicing > >inappropriate charms on a goat' as well. Perhaps Dumbledore's > >brother comes from one of those places where men are men > >and the sheep are nervous ....) > > I think JKR *is* offering an off-color joke to the adults with this > line, one that will go over the heads of children. However, the > children's interpretation is probably actually the correct one: > inappropriate charms means just that, charms that are deemed verboten > by the Misuse of Magic Office because they're risky or cruel or > likely to attract the attention of Muggles. E.g., Aberforth D. might > have charmed it to shoot sparks out of its horns or dance en pointe. > There are lots of nonsexual possibilities, but JKR words it the way > she does (and chooses a suggestive animal like a goat) because she > knows adult readers' minds will go to the Muggle version of > inappropriate behavior vis a vis goats. > Amy Z I think that JKR was particularly careful. Were she to have made Aberforth's unwitting subject a sheep, it would had had all those uncomfortable overtones of which you speak--although in light of the permissive nature of past posts on sexual preference, the "Ruminant Lovers Pride Association" might take offense at anyone ELSE taking offense. (In such cases you just have to take the bull by the horns, so to speak.) Making it a goat is just enough different from the cliche to skate by. Haggridd From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 20:55:24 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:55:24 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Inappropriate_charms_=96_Dark_Mark_=96_SB_on_SS?= In-Reply-To: <9m3o7k+phs2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3qjs+jpqa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24795 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Vanessa wrote: > > > > >This puzzled me - does Sirius not know that the Dark Mark appears > > on the arms of the Death Eaters? Is this not common knowledge > > (you'd've thought that all the trials would have brought this to light)? [snip] > This passage, IMO, is convincing evidence that the Dark Mark is not > usually visible. Sirius has known all too many Death Eaters?surely > he would have picked up this bit of info during 12 years in Azkaban > if the DM were visible, even though I doubt Azkaban has a weight > room. Likewise, I think the use of the DM tattoo is a closely kept > secret, known only to DEs and the people it's been leaked to (e.g. > I'm sure Snape has told Dumbledore). I think Sirius is out of the loop because he was in prison--we still have no way of knowing whether Dark Marks are usually visible. But you're probably right that Azkaban probably doesn't have a weight room. The impression one gets is that it's solitary confinement for all prisoners all the time. It has been pointed out that the name resembles Alcatraz; having visited Alcatraz, and also living just a few blocks away from another prison museum, Eastern State Penitentiary here in Philadelphia (a model institution duplicated throughout the world which was designed to make the residents "penitent" through solitary Bible study) I can say that these places weren't designed to break the human spirit, but that's what resulted. Add in dementors, and the picture of Azkaban that emerges is hundreds (or even perhaps thousands, considering wizard life-spans) of people huddled in despair in their cells, having all happiness sucked out of them and leaving them precious little brain for socializing and discussing Dark Marks. --Barb From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 21:21:33 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:21:33 -0000 Subject: Favourite Details. Message-ID: <9m3s4t+albv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24796 Too numerous to mention, really, but I have two quotes which I particularly love: The first is: "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. I love it - very dry, and it's also a rare moment when Hermione gets the smart-alec comment and therefore gets one up on Ron. Second: When Harry meets Fred and George for the first time: "Blimey," said the other twin. "Are you -?" "He is," said the first twin. "Aren't you? he added to Harry. "What?" said Harry. "Harry Potter," chorused the twins. "Oh, him," said Harry. "I mean, yes, I am." A brilliant comic moment - introducing the twins as a double act, and showing how Harry feels about his new-found celebrity. It encompasses not only humour, pathos, and real insight into Harry's psyche, both generally and at this point in time in particular. Other favourites include Snape's speech in Harry's first lesson, and his "Potter has been crossing lines..." comment in GoF. Harry's Tom Swifty ("He's friends with that dog," said Harry, grimly) in PoA. Everything about the Burrow. Mr Weasley's awkward swinging of arms when standing in the Dursley's sitting room. Ginny standing up for Harry in Flourish and Blotts. Voldemort's "right hand" gag. There are lots of other scenes which have more of an emotional impact, and I think that my favourite in the entire series so far is the conversation between Sirius and Harry towards the end of PoA, when Sirius asks Harry to live with him - makes me cry everytime. Catherine From hyria at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 21:29:29 2001 From: hyria at yahoo.com (Catriona) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:29:29 -0000 Subject: Favourite Details. In-Reply-To: <9m3s4t+albv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m3sjp+fvkl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24797 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said > Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." > "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. > > I love it - very dry, and it's also a rare moment when Hermione gets > the smart-alec comment and therefore gets one up on Ron. > So true, it works perfectly. I must agree that is one of the best. I also love the idea of the Pepperup Potion (sp?). You know the one I mean, steam comes out of the ears and colds and chills are cured. Fantastic! ::Thinks of own cold/flu remedy involving three Lemsips, six Nurofen and a packet of Sudafed:: [Huge number of brands there]. Believe me it works. From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 23 21:41:07 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:41:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Did Sirius Play the Joke on Snape? References: <9m3m0e+ovri@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B857872.6D3BF0C8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24798 cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: > In PoA, we are told that Sirius plays a "joke" on Snape that could > have gotten Snape killed by following Lupin to the Shrieking Shack. > > I have always had trouble with this. Lupin was lucky to be admitted > to Hogwarts in the first place, and elaborate protections have been > put in place so Lupin can attend school. Wizards don't like > werewolves, and Lupin is keeping it quiet that he's a werewolf. Lupin > is one of Sirius' best friends. Sirius knows all of these things, is > smart, and is at least a fifth year student. > > So why in the world would Sirius deliberately set up a situation where > Lupin, one of his best friends, kills someone and would thereby be > expelled or worse? Hmmm. Because Snape did something to *him* in particular, sufficient to make him focus entirely on revenge and not past that point--spied on him, caught him doing something, whatever? Secondarily, because Sirius, for some nebulous reason, "feels" impulsive to me. I don't believe he thought it through. Had he, he might not have done it, but I don't think Sirius is the think-it-through type. He's a mover and shaker. Plenty of very intelligent people do very dumb things for this very reason. > And why doesn't Lupin show any signs of ever having been at all > peeved about being used like this? Probably because they had at least two years at Hogwarts and X years afterward to have fought about it, sniped about it, and worked it out, so that it was not of sufficient importance to have been revisited in the minute sample of Lupin/Sirius interaction that we've seen. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 22:45:06 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:45:06 -0000 Subject: Favourite Details. In-Reply-To: <9m3s4t+albv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m411i+lis1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24799 Way too numerous to mention, but for me the crowning moment, the partwhere I realized that I would not be able to put the book down was when Hagrid made his entrance at the hut on the rock and gave Harry his letter. I cried. It was perfect. --Suzanne From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Aug 23 23:59:43 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:59:43 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m2teb+osjn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m45df+61r5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24800 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Hi everybody, > > 1) to everybody who didn't like my matutine comment about the recent > discussion: Sorry, I didn't mean to cut it off, I just thought it was > an interesting phenomenon how we all were starting to get our > favourite eye-rolling scenes out of the closet. > 2) I think we all love JKR's detailed description and sometimes those > details are really hilarious (Like Lockhart on his photos with his > hair on rollers, the referee at the QWC flexing his muscles for the > Veela etc.) > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite > detail. My own is Snape, blasting apart the rose bushes at the Yule > ball. > > Susanna/pigwidgeon37 Oh, there are tons of details...A couple of my favorites are: Harry buys Dobby a pair of socks that scream loudly when they get too smelly. In Transfiguration the students have to turn a mouse into a snuff box. They get extra points if the snuff box is pretty, but get points taken off if it still has whiskers. And I love all the great names JKR has come up with - wonderfully rhythmic and/or alliterative names: Severus Snape, Sirius Black, Minerva McGonagall, Dumbledore. Marianne From dasienko at email.com Fri Aug 24 00:52:36 2001 From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:52:36 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m48gk+p5ot@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24801 The trolls standing around comparing the size of their clubs. For some reason that line describes why HP is different than Earthsea or the Seventh Son, JK's ability to toss in a small detail that both makes us laugh and illluminates the fact that the wizard world is different than ours, but there are universalexperiences. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 24 01:12:36 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 01:12:36 -0000 Subject: Consider My Plight (FILK) Message-ID: <9m49m4+g664@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24802 Consider My Plight A filk by Pippin To the tune of Consider Yourself, from the musical Oliver! Dedicated to CMC The scene: The Shrieking Shack Remus Lupin explains to Harry, Ron and Hermione how his friends became Animagi Consider my plight, my friends Stuck out in the shack gnawing the furniture Though werewolves are wicked strong If they'd transform we could get along Transfigured themselves, those three Transfigured themselves, spiting the powers that be Imagine the fun we'd share On moonlit nights when we took the air We would roam the grounds on all the wolfman's holidays Those were jolly days for us When they took their secret Padfoot, Prongs and Wormtail ways And snuck out without a fuss Consider it right, I can't And learning it was a beast But animagus transformation did abate Considering them as a feast! From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 01:27:24 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Villians In-Reply-To: <20010823134748.11435.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010824012724.20126.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24803 Hello, --- Kelly Hurt wrote: > party. He said "That's not what'll go in the > records, but yes". She Ah, but that wasn't a long, long speech about how he despise anyone who dares support the opposing party and how the opposing party will eventually lose and this dude will rule the world, complete with maniacal laughter . I'm not saying criminals/villains don't do stupid things; they just usually don't *talk* that much about it. Voldemort, to me, is about as scary as Brain from "Pinky & the Brain." little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 01:32:29 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 01:32:29 -0000 Subject: Is JKR going to kill Harry or not? In-Reply-To: <9m3379+6ac0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m4ard+p129@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24804 Cynthia:"In a few interviews I read, JKR said a few times something like "What makes you think Harry is going to survive for anything past the seventh book" or words to that effect." She hasn't said more, AFAIK, and JKR has shown herself to be a master of misdirection, so I sure don't take that as an omen. Wishful thinking? Maybe. Cynthia:"I assume this has been discussed before (although I can't find anything about it on this site). So what's the consensus of opinion? Is JKR going to kill Harry in some final showdown with Voldemort, or not?" I don't remember if it was polled or not, but I would guess most folks here would say no. Although JKR seems free of the need to have a happy ending with all loose ends tied up and everybody content, my gut says she isn't going to give us an ending that dark, either. A lot of people we love are going to die, though, and just like in real wars, you lose friends and pay a price to fight evil. That's something we're in a fair way to forget. From pbarhug at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 01:34:47 2001 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:34:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Overlords, Psycho Voldie, the Foe Glass References: <9m1u5i+2rjf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B85AF37.F2F95CA2@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24805 Jim Ferer wrote: > "Disturbances in the content and/or process of thought?" I'm stark, > staring, barking mad by that standard. > Join the club! ; ) > Volemort isn't a schizophrenic. He's a classic sociopath, another > Hitler, Stalin, Ted Bundy, whatever. He possesses none of the limits > most people do; he sees and treats people as objects, not human > beings. Pawns. So he has so little empathy that he doesn't hesitate to > > kill or apply the Cruciatus Curse. And sociopaths are often capable > of being charming and a good manipulator. > > Absolutely; we're 100% in agreement. I spent better than three years working with and studying psychopaths for my dissertation. I have marveled at JKR's ability to present fairly accurate character sketches of psychopaths without, for the most part, falling into common traps and misconceptions. It always bothers me a bit when I see the clearly psychopathic or the antisocial referred to as insane. But psychopaths are *not* insane by clinical or legal standards. Voldemort is not just a psychopath, he's a "successful" psychopath, as were Hitler and Stalin (Stalin more so). Ted Bundy and so many of the other ones we see are really not quite so good at it; the successful psychopath does not get caught and generally suffers few adverse real world consequences for his (or her) behavior. The "good" ones are pretty much always charming and definitely manipulative. Voldemort is a frightening character, in part because he is not crazy. For him to be unhinged would detract from his power to instill the creeps in me. Were he just some nut, I'd think: "What he needs is a hip full of Haldol and a trip to St. Mungo's." That was my problem with Barty, Jr. and why the whole Mad-Eye thing proved to be ultimately disappointing to me. When JKR made him unhinged, she (IMHO) undermined the masterful portrait she had created of a supreme deceiver and manipulator, willing to do anything to anybody--no matter how heinous--to achieve his ends; in the end, he became just another nutty zealot. Big V and Lucius Malfoy (who may be a better psychopath than Big V) have lead me to wonder about JKR's conception of the nature of evil and its appearance in everyday life. I know we've tackled that thread before and we're kinda talking about it again with this whole Evil Overlord thing. Unfortunately I don't think we'll be able to begin to answer that question until Book Seven. drpam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Fri Aug 24 01:58:40 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:58:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New thought, old topic Message-ID: <12a.3461eaf.28b70ed0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24806 In a message dated 8/23/01 4:28:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes: > I suggest that the reason that Snape calls Lupin has something to do > with the joke Sirius played on Snape to cause Snape to almost run > into Lupin/werewolf in the Shrieking Shack. Perhaps the joke was > played using the Marauder's Map. Sirius had betwitched the map to > tip Snape off about Lupin, using the same sort of charm that caused > it to insult Snape. > > So when Snape sees these same nicknames insulting him, he calls > Lupin. Snape summons Lupin not because Lupin is the DADA teacher > (Snape doesn't even respect Lupin enough to give him the satisfaction > of seeking Lupin's advice). Rather, Snape summons Lupin because > Snape thinks Lupin was "in on the joke" the last time Snape saw the > Marauder's Map and can explain why the map is behaving the same way > it did when Snape was tricked long ago. > > This also makes sense when we are told that Lupin is doing some very > fast thinking. He is piecing together that Snape has seen the map > before, that it was the source of the joke, etc. > I think you raised an interesting possibility here. It made me think of something else. In PoA, Lupin tells Harry that he happens to know that the Marauder's Map was confiscated by Filch many years ago. Is it possible that Filch took the Map after the joke? It would also make sense, then, that Filch didn't know the true nature of the Map (Fred and George said this when they gave the Map to Harry). I definitely agree with you that Snape did not call Lupin for his expertise in DADA. There was most certainly something else there, and I think what you said makes a lot of sense. Devika, who really really wants to know more about what happened between Sirius and Snape... where's book 5?? *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them." --Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's [Philosopher's] Stone *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Fri Aug 24 02:11:41 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:11:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favourite details? Message-ID: <21.1039c5ae.28b711dd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24807 Favorite details? There are so many! Let's see... The Marauder's Map insulting Snape in PoA. Yes, it's mean, but it makes me laugh every time. Harry asking Cho to the Yule Ball (Wangoballwime?), Ginny's reaction when she realizes that she had a chance to go with Harry but can't because she already has a date. The Unexpected Task is one of my favorite chapters in GoF. Sirius's reaction when Harry is recounting his experiences with Voldemort at the end of GoF. I think it's particularly sad and touching when Harry looks at Sirius after telling how Lily and James came out of V's wand and sees that Sirius has his face in his hands. And many many more... Devika :) *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them." --Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's [Philosopher's] Stone *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kdemcak at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 02:13:18 2001 From: kdemcak at hotmail.com (kdemcak at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:13:18 -0000 Subject: Animal Transfiguration Vs. Animagi Message-ID: <9m4d7u+qg89@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24808 Here's something I was just mulling over... we've seen several instances in the books of non-Animagi wizards turning themselves into animals (Krum as shark in GoF, for instance). Plus we know that it's possible to turn another person into an animal (say, Malfoy as the ferret in GoF as well). Obviously there's a big distinction between an Animagus and the latter, but what makes an Animagus so special compared to the former? For instance, I know that Krum only half-transfigures himself into the shark, but since Harry notes he did it badly and Bagman says it was "an imcomplete form of Transfiguration," I'm led to think that full-Transfiguration would have been possible here. So is it just the length of time it lasts do you think? A normal wizard might be able to tranfigure himself into an animal for say, an hour, whereas an Animagus can do it for as long as s/he wishes? This seems most likely to me. Or is it something else? Cheers, Katy ------ "Excuse me, I don't like people just because they're handsome!" said Hermione indignantly. Ron gave a loud false cough, which sounded oddly like "Lockhart!" From crabtree at ktc.com Fri Aug 24 02:26:50 2001 From: crabtree at ktc.com (Jo) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:26:50 -0000 Subject: Favourite details? In-Reply-To: <9m45df+61r5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m4e1a+ntem@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24809 It is so hard to choose ONE favorite detail, so here are two: In GoF while Harry and Ron are on the outs, and Hermione is Harry's best friend. They are spending a lot of time in the library and notice that Krum is there a lot too. Hermione says that all of those giggling girls just like him because he is famous for that "Wonky-Faint thing." Harry has to grit his teeth to correct her and imagines Ron's reaction. I have to laugh while picturing Harry trying to control himself while correcting her. To me the most touching scene is also in GoF while Harry and Ron aren't friends. Ron almost catches Harry talking to Sirius's head. Harry and Ron get into an arguement. Harry winds up throwing a POTTER REALLY STINKS badge at Ron hitting him on the head. Harry says some really hurtful things to Ron and leaves him standing there in his "too-small pajamas." They can't stand to be friends, and they can't stand to not be friends. Professor Phlash From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 02:48:59 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:48:59 -0000 Subject: Favourite Details. In-Reply-To: <9m3s4t+albv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m4far+43uq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24810 Catherine wrote: > When Harry meets Fred and George for the first time: > "Blimey," said the other twin. "Are you -?" > "He is," said the first twin. "Aren't you? he added to Harry. > "What?" said Harry. > "Harry Potter," chorused the twins. > "Oh, him," said Harry. "I mean, yes, I am." > > A brilliant comic moment - introducing the twins as a double act, and > showing how Harry feels about his new-found celebrity. It > encompasses not only humour, pathos, and real insight into Harry's > psyche, both generally and at this point in time in particular. Yes yes yes, and I love it too for all those reasons, and if it isn't in the movie I'm going to send Steven Kloves a Howler every day for a month. > Other favourites include Snape's speech in Harry's first lesson, and > his "Potter has been crossing lines..." comment in GoF. This line doesn't stand out for me, but Harry's imitation of it later does. As with the "dentists" line, it's a rare moment when it's H or H who makes the funny comment. I really like Harry making a comment that Ron and Hermione laugh at, and it has a bit of pathos in it too, esp. coming on the heels of the comment about Rita having had to move beyond "what a tragic little hero I am." Amy Z who loves this line too for all it conveys: -------------------------------------------------------- "Someone attacking you, Harry?" Seamus asked sleepily. -HP and the Goblet of Fire -------------------------------------------------------- From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 24 03:08:13 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 03:08:13 -0000 Subject: New thought, old topic In-Reply-To: <12a.3461eaf.28b70ed0@aol.com> Message-ID: <9m4get+4ol8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24811 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > > I think you raised an interesting possibility here. It made me think of > something else. In PoA, Lupin tells Harry that he happens to know that the > Marauder's Map was confiscated by Filch many years ago. Is it possible that > Filch took the Map after the joke? It would also make sense, then, that > Filch didn't know the true nature of the Map (Fred and George said this when > they gave the Map to Harry). > I definitely agree with you that Snape did not call Lupin for his expertise > in DADA. There was most certainly something else there, and I think what you > said makes a lot of sense. > > Devika, who really really wants to know more about what happened between > Sirius and Snape... where's book 5?? Devika, I think you are onto something there. But then again, Filch wouldn't have confiscated the map unless Snape ratted on Sirius. Also, if Snape were going to tell what happened, I'd think he would go to his head of house or Dumbledore, not Filch. So I'm thinking the map probably got confiscated in the same way Lupin and Moody took it from Harry: a teacher told the Marauders essentially "Give it to me." Cindy *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~ > "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, > and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them." > --Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's [Philosopher's] Stone > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From degroote at altavista.com Fri Aug 24 03:45:53 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (degroote at altavista.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 03:45:53 -0000 Subject: Muggle Parents Message-ID: <9m4ili+sj33@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24812 This my first posting. I'm so happy to find this site to talk other grown ups about Harry Potter. Anyone else a thirtysomething mom or dad whose kids are too young to read HP themselves? Anyway, anyone wondered about how Hermione's parents feel about finding out that their little girl is a witch (something I sometimes suspect my 6 y/o of, LOL) and then sending her off to some place they've never been and can't go to? Would they be distracted by some errand (as JKR says muggles are when they appraoch Hogwart's gates), or could they have a charm placed on them that would allow them to enter, etc? Do parents ever get to come and visit (other than for the final task of the TriWizard Tournament)? If not, how can they stand to be away from their children for so long-especially if they stay at the castle during holidays? Why don't Hermione's parents read The Daily Prophet? I'd sure insist upon recieving and keeping up with what's going on in my child's world! I know that in GB sending kids to boarding school is fairly common, but aren't these long strtches without seeing parents (9-10 months)a bit unusual? Do Hermione's parents use the Owl Post? Do you think I'm a little obsessed with Hermione? She IS my favourite character! She reminds me alot of what I imagine my 6 y/o daughter to be like in a few years. Maybe I'm so concerned about these issues because I have wishful thinking that we'll recieve a letter written in dark green ink in about 4 1/2 years inviting her to the American School of Witchcraft & Wizardry? Where do you suppose it would be? Ok, here I go again... Would love to hear some of your thoughts! From Allyse at my-deja.com Fri Aug 24 04:55:34 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 04:55:34 -0000 Subject: Dentists and Flamel, was Re: Favourite Details. In-Reply-To: <9m3s4t+albv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m4mo6+fuoi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24813 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > "And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said > Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." > "Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. > > I love it - very dry, and it's also a rare moment when Hermione gets > the smart-alec comment and therefore gets one up on Ron. Smart-alecky, indeed. I loved it too. Yet it occurs to me, after being thoroughly corrupted by this group ;) that Hermione *could* have discovered quite a bit about Flamel through her parents - or at least, through an encyclopedia. After all, Flamel *did* exist as a "Muggle". I wonder how Ron and Harry would have reacted if Hermione had brought that info back to Hogwarts on her return? :) Allyse, who also thanks CMC for the hysterical filk From nethilia at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 05:11:41 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Favourite Details. In-Reply-To: <998622336.3722.62088.l8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010824051141.55227.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24814 My favorite of all would be in PS/SS 16, when they are tangled in Devil's snare and Hermione whines about thier being no wood. Ron yells at her to make flames, which she does, and as they walk away: "Lucky you pay attention in Herbology, Hermione." ~Harry "Yeah, and lucky Harry doesn't lose his head in a crisis--"there's no wood", _honestly_." ~Ron. The first time I read that I cracked up. --Neth ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- 79% obsessed with Harry Potter **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. From catlady at wicca.net Fri Aug 24 06:17:51 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:17:51 -0700 Subject: Riddikulus and Expecto Patrono - De-Aging - Apparation and Animagery - Who is Doomed? - Good/Evil - Wand Message-ID: <3B85F18F.6E0B290D@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24815 Martin wrote: > Riddikulus and Expecto Patronum (which are approx > the same level of difficulty I don't think they can be the same level of difficulty, as Lupin is apparently teaching Riddikulus to all the third year students (for all we know, to ALL the students), but he told Harry "The spell I am going to try and teach you is highly advanced magic, Harry -- well beyond ordinary Wizarding Level. It is called the Patronus Charm" and "Many qualified wizards have difficulty with it." Cindy wrote: > In GoF, Fred and George just went to the > hospital wing to be de-aged. So you probably > only have to take an antidote, which Mrs. Figg > could take to make herself younger. Kelly Hurt already said that the twins just went to be de-bearded, but I was thinking that if there IS a de-ageing potion, if it works on age acquired by travelling forward in time at the rate of one second per second, that might explain why wizards live longer than Muggles. Cindy wrote: > I wonder which spell is more difficult: apparating > or animagus transformation? (snip) But the MoM has > a special squad to fix flawed apparations, so it must > be harder to do correctly. More people Apparate than become Animagi: it seems that almost all adult wizards Apparate, but there were only seven registered Animagi in one hundred years. I'm tempted to say that having so many more Apparators than Animages shows that Apparation is easier, but it might just be so much more useful that people are willing to put in the effort to learn it. So if Apparation and Animagery were equally difficult, there would be many more Apparation accidents (because of more Apparators), which would justify having one squad for Apparation catastrophes but making Animagery catastrophes just share the same old Accidental Magic Reversal Squad. Aleks wrote: > when LV touched the Dark Mark of a DE they were > all to disapparate and apparate immediately at > his side. If this is the case then how would t > hey know where to go? Does Apparating allow you > to focus on a person and as well as place for > your destination? And if this is so why can't > MoM wizards focus on LV, apparate to his side > and capture him? Presumably normal Apparation only allows the wizard to Apparate to a place, not to a person, but the Dark Mark magically gives its wearer the ability to Apparate to LV, altho' not to any other person, and only when LV summons them. The only way the MoM wizards could Apparate to LV is if their Death Eater double agent obeyed the summons, then instantly Apparated away to MoM to tell the others the location. (I am assuming that there is some way to describe a location well enough for a person who has never been there to Apparate there. I invented a book named the Apparatlas which is a listing of this descriptions.) Apparating in and right out like that might put the DEs on the alert. Cindy wrote: > Also, on the train in P of A, only two people are > seriously affected by the dementor: Harry and Ginny In Harry's compartment, three people were badly affected by the Dementor: Harry, Ginny, AND Neville. "Ginny and Neville looked back at him, both very pale." "It was horrible," said Neville, in a higher voice than usual. "Did YOU feel how cold it got when it came in?" We learn in GoF what horrors Neville has in his past (even if he was not present when his parents were captured and tortured, he has to go visit them at each holiday). We also know on one person who was badly affected OUTSIDE Harry's compartment: Draco Malfoy. The twins tell Harry: "That little git," [George] said calmly. "He wasn't so cocky last night when the dementors were down at our end of the train. Came running into our compartment, didn't he, Fred?" "Nearly wet himself," said Fred, with a contemptuous glance at Malfoy. Makes me wonder what horrors Draco has in HIS past. He has a father who is well qualified to provide horrors, or was it just seeing Quirrel and the unicorn. Little Alex wrote: > I fully believe that if 'evil' will reap more > rewards without punishments, most people will > go with the 'evil' choice instead of the 'good.' > Well, at least I would. I think. I think it's brave of you to admit that. Nonetheless, I'm not going to start assuming that you're evil just yet, as I believe that the most important rewards and punishments are internal: the reward of feeling good about oneself and the punishment of feeling guilty or ashamed. Those are enough to keep most people behaving fairly virtuously most of the time. Even though people are pretty good at making excuses to themselves... Catherine wrote: > I am also wandering how he overpowered Bertha > Jorkins - with or without wand? Did he steal > her's and use it against her? Her shade came out of Voldemort's wand. Are you implying that her shade represented only the Avada Kedavra and Cruciatis curses that V put on her after W fetched her? If so, maybe W fetched her by trickery, such as inviting her for a romantic stroll in the woods. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L egendary A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 07:45:22 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:45:22 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_Inappropriate_charms_-_Dark_Mark_-?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_SB_on_SS?= In-Reply-To: <9m3o7k+phs2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24816 >Likewise, I think the use of the DM tattoo is a closely kept secret, known only to DEs and the people it's been leaked to (e.g. >I'm sure Snape has told Dumbledore). All together now, children:- "When I become an evil overlord my followers will *not* have a secret scar, signet ring or brand by which they can recognise each other". Susan From katzefan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 07:49:41 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:49:41 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Apparating,__Lucius_vs_Voldemort,_evil,_favourite_moments,_Harry=92s_death?= Message-ID: <9m50um+5ocq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24817 In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aleks" wrote: > .... why can't MoM wizards focus on LV, apparate to his side > and capture him? > I'm guessing that Voldemort has a fair number of protective charms placed around himself, some of which may be booby- trapped to the extreme detriment of enemies who show up in his immediate vicinity with (to his mind) nefarious purposes. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: >> > [Little Alex wrote] Anyway, I think we should keep an eye on Lucius > > Malfoy. With Voldemort being the way he is, Lucius > > just might be able to manipulate the hell out of > > Voldemort. Probably get Voldemort to defeat the world > > *and then* give the guy a stab to his back and control > > the world himself. Or subtly using Voldemort as a > > puppet (so subtly that Voldemort won't realize it, of > > course). Now, *that* would be a villain. > > > Interesting idea. I would not be adverse to seeing it, but I don't > get the feeling that's where JKR is going with this. I also think > it'd be jarring for the younger readers to go from the > Harry/Voldemort tension to Harry/Lucius. But anything's possible. A pitched battle between Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy -- I'd PAY to see that (keeping well out of the line of fire). --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Flawed as in literary character flaw or morally > flawed? I don't believe that people will > automatically choose 'good' if given the choice. Of > course, that's assuming there *is* good and evil in > the first place. I fully believe that if 'evil' will > reap more rewards without punishments, most people > will go with the 'evil' choice instead of the 'good.' > Well, at least I would. I think. > > little Alex > I think it depends on the level of `evil' involved - I mean, cheating the tax man is considered a perfectly legitimate activity these days and not particularly evil (except by the government), but wholesale slaughter is on a slightly different scale. How `evil' would you get, if you thought you could get away with it? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I really would like to hear if anybody else has such a favourite > detail. My own is Snape, blasting apart the rose bushes at the Yule ball. > Susanna/pigwidgeon37 Too many to list, though I also liked Lockhart's Valentine dwarf, "twanging his harp in a threatening sort of way" when he approaches Harry to deliver the Valentine (not to mention the line "His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad." YUCK!). In PS/SS, I loved Hagrid's casual handling of Mr. Dursley ("Ah, shut up Dursley, yeh great prune," after which he yanks the rifle out of Vernon's hands, twists it into a knot and tosses it into a corner of the room.) I particularly liked the scene in GoF when Ron and Harry are starting to panic over their lack of dates for the Christmas Ball. Ron (whose 40-watt light bulb appears to have finally lit) says to Hermione, "*You're* a girl and she snaps back, "Oh, well spotted." And as I'm in the field myself, I was really, really, *really* tickled with JKR's portrayal of Rita Skeeter.Years ago, one of my journalism professors said people who went into print reporting did so primarily because their egos weren't *quite* big enough to push them in front of a TV camera .... Then, of course, there's Snape blasting the rose bushes apart. Quite the dedicated chaperone .... And many others. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > In a few interviews I read, JKR said a few times something like "What makes you think Harry is going to survive for anything past the seventh book" or words to that effect. > I assume this has been discussed before (although I can't find > anything about it on this site). So what's the consensus of > opinion? Is JKR going to kill Harry in some final showdown >with Voldemort, or not? I thought in one interview JKR said that, at the end of Book 7, Harry would be finished with the Dursleys and, as a Hogwarts graduate, preparing to strike out on his own. Didn't hear the interview myself, so I can't swear to it, but it certainly didn't sound like she was planning to kill him off. I don't think she'd dothat to her readers (I agree with those who say Dumbledore will almost certainly not survive, and I plan to have a hefty supply of Kleenex on hand when that happens.) Foxmoth: thanks for the hilarious FILK. Had a brief vision of Lupin "stuck out in the shack, gnawing the furniture" and it was just toooo much! *********************************** But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a whole new light. "Hermione, Neville's right - you *are* a girl..." "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly. From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 24 10:09:14 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:09:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New thought, old topic References: <9m4get+4ol8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8627C9.BF2950CD@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24818 cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: > Devika, I think you are onto something there. But then again, Filch > wouldn't have confiscated the map unless Snape ratted on Sirius. What, are you nuts? Filch would confiscate it if they sneezed too loudly. Or if he'd had a bad day. Or if he'd had a good day and they looked likely to spoil it. Or if they'd served something Filch didn't like for lunch. Etc. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 11:22:05 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:22:05 -0000 Subject: New thought, old topic (SS, RL, & map) In-Reply-To: <9m3lgu+6ref@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m5dct+60jd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24819 Amanda wrote: > This is borne out in the conversation between Lupin, Harry, and Ron > immediately after they leave Snape's office. Harry asks, "Why did Snape > think I'd got it from the manufacturs?" and Lupin answers, "Because > those manufacturers would have wanted to lure you out of the school" > (paraphrasing a bit). The implication is clear that Lupin knows two > things: (a) that Snape knew both the names and the character of the > mapmakers, and (b) that Snape didn't know Lupin himself was one. This > implies a bit of past history. Cindy, thanks for reviving this, because I have a question about it. Amanda, I don't get why this exchange between Lupin and Harry tells us these two things about what Snape knows. It tells us the first, but not the second. It might be that Snape knows that Lupin was one of the mapmakers and Lupin knows he knows it, but neither he nor Lupin wants to reveal that fact or that knowledge to Harry. So Lupin isn't likely to answer Harry's question with "Because two of them were me and your dad and Snape imagines one of us gave it to you." Amy Z --------------------------------------------------- "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly. "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he," said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room. "Birds of a feather." -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------------- From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Aug 24 12:08:53 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:08:53 -0000 Subject: Favourite Details. In-Reply-To: <9m3s4t+albv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m5g4l+b3f7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24820 Okay - first I have to say that I really love all the details of the series. It is the detail that makes these books so brilliant. I had to think about which details in particular really stood out in my mind, and here is what I came up with: SS: "He (Uncle Vernon) liked to complain about things: people at work, Harry, the council, Harry, the bank, and Harry were just a few of his favorite subjects." GoF: Dumbledore: "I am *not* joking, Mr. Weasley", he said, "though now that you mention it, I did hear an excellent one over the summer aout a troll, a hag, and a leprechaun who all go into a bar..." Professor McGonagall cleared her throat loudly. Also in GoF, but I can't find the exact quote: Neville's aim is so poor he keeps sending Professor Flitwick flying across the room. There are so many others, and I agree with Catherine that everything about the Burrow is just perfect. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************** From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 24 12:13:34 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:13:34 -0000 Subject: New thought, old topic In-Reply-To: <3B8627C9.BF2950CD@texas.net> Message-ID: <9m5gde+72c9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24821 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > > Devika, I think you are onto something there. But then again, Filch > > wouldn't have confiscated the map unless Snape ratted on Sirius. > > What, are you nuts? Filch would confiscate it if they sneezed too > loudly. Or if he'd had a bad day. Or if he'd had a good day and they > looked likely to spoil it. Or if they'd served something Filch didn't > like for lunch. Etc. > > --Amanda Amanda, I had something different in mind. Devrika wrote, "In PoA, Lupin tells Harry that he happens to know that the Marauder's Map was confiscated by Filch many years ago. Is it possible that Filch took the Map after the joke? I responded no, because that would require Snape to have ratted on Sirius. My point is that Filch wouldn't know about the map's role in the joke unless Snape told him, and therefore couldn't confiscate it on that basis alone. Now if Filch learned about it in some other way, then of course he'd confiscate it. I just don't think the trigger for the confiscation was the joke. Cindy > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 12:38:17 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:38:17 -0400 Subject: Lucius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24822 >From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" > >Anyway, I think we should keep an eye on Lucius >Malfoy. With Voldemort being the way he is, Lucius >just might be able to manipulate the hell out of >Voldemort. Probably get Voldemort to defeat the world >*and then* give the guy a stab to his back and control >the world himself. Or subtly using Voldemort as a >puppet (so subtly that Voldemort won't realize it, of >course). Now, *that* would be a villain. I'm still convinced that Lucius is going to try and overthrow Voldemort at some point in the books. As to whether or not he's successful, well I don't know. I do think that it might be a bit to jarring to go from Voldemort as ultimate Bad Guy to Lucius as ultimate Bad Guy. Hence my hypothesis that Lucius is going to die and that this will have an interesting effect on Draco. Perhaps it will result in the longed-for turning to Dumbledore's side that so many list members are hoping for. *wry grin* ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Updated 8/17/01 "...Afraid of change, afraid of staying the same When temptation calls, we just look away..." - Barenaked Ladies, "What A Good Boy" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 12:41:41 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:41:41 -0000 Subject: Why Did Sirius Play the Joke on Snape? In-Reply-To: <3B857872.6D3BF0C8@texas.net> Message-ID: <9m5i25+6ll9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24823 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > > In PoA, we are told that Sirius plays a "joke" on Snape that could > > have gotten Snape killed by following Lupin to the Shrieking Shack. > > > > I have always had trouble with this. Lupin was lucky to be admitted > > to Hogwarts in the first place...[snip] This is something I've thought about for a while. It seems that there was actually some thought of Lupin NOT going to Hogwarts. Plus Hagrid was expelled from the school. Yet they are both wizards, with magical abilities that are a part of them. It seems to me that it would be MORE dangerous to have people with magic in them receiving no training or inadequate training in magic. In fact, you'd think Lupin would have worked extra hard at Potions to be able to make the Wolfsbane Potion himself! And we've seen some of the results of Hagrid's magical education being stopped after three years. (But this might be another good reason for Dumbledore keeping him around--less charity, more keeping an eye on him.) While discipline is necessary at any school, IMO no one should ever be expelled from Hogwarts because what someone could do with less magical education is potentially far riskier than what they might do with more. Power without knowledge or wisdom is a dangerous thing. --Barb From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 13:14:13 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:14:13 -0000 Subject: New thought, old topic In-Reply-To: <3B43D7E7.9756C624@texas.net> Message-ID: <9m5jv5+3u3c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24824 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: --if Snape > knows who the authors of the map are, then his questions to Lupin seem > very odd and veiled and not in character. If he doesn't, how does he > know enough to be worried that Harry got the map directly from the > manufacturers? I could never resolve this. > > But I had a new thought. Snape pretty clearly does not know *who* Moony, > Padfoot, Wormtail, and Prongs were. > So I'm throwing out to the group my theory that Snape had had prior > experience, probably bad, with jokes or other stuff from "Moony, > Padfoot, Wormtail, & Prongs," recognized those names, and considered > them a danger and possibly affiliated with dark magic. BUT, Snape did > not know *who* Moony, Padfoot, Wormtail, or Prongs actually *were,* > which explains the way he discusses the map and the manufacturers with > Lupin the way he does. Nothing in Snape's manner indicates he had any > idea that Lupin was one of those mapmakers; he consulted him because he > was the DADA teacher and a pro in the field. > > So, have I explained the oddness? It seems right to me. > > --Amanda, excited about maybe explaining something! Amanda - I think you've got something! Plus, if Snape DID know who MPW&P were, I'd think that he would have said something years before. Expecially since Sirius was public enemy #1 - if Snape had any idea (1) that a "dangerous killer" had the inside & out of Hogwarts mapped out and that (2) a "dangerous killer" may be an animagus, Snape would have told the Wizarding world long ago. If for no other reason than to get back at his old nemesis. Or am I missing something? From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 13:25:36 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:25:36 -0000 Subject: Riddikulus and Expecto Patrono - De-Aging - Apparation and Animagery - Who is Doomed? - Good/Evil - Wand In-Reply-To: <3B85F18F.6E0B290D@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9m5kkg+s09a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24825 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > Cindy wrote: > > > In GoF, Fred and George just went to the > > hospital wing to be de-aged. So you probably > > only have to take an antidote, which Mrs. Figg > > could take to make herself younger. > > Kelly Hurt already said that the twins just went to be de-bearded, > but I was thinking that if there IS a de-ageing potion, if it works > on age acquired by travelling forward in time at the rate of one > second per second, that might explain why wizards live longer than > Muggles. I don't think the aging thing is likely that simple. One gets the impression from Snape's Potions classes that there are antidotes to many potions that specifically reverse the effects of the other potion (aging and anti-aging potions cancelling each other). > Cindy wrote: > > > I wonder which spell is more difficult: apparating > > or animagus transformation? (snip) But the MoM has > > a special squad to fix flawed apparations, so it must > > be harder to do correctly. > > More people Apparate than become Animagi: it seems that almost all > adult wizards Apparate, but there were only seven registered > Animagi in one hundred years. I'm tempted to say that having so > many more Apparators than Animages shows that Apparation is easier, > but it might just be so much more useful that people are willing to > put in the effort to learn it. Or it may be that the Animagus transformation is particularly attractive to those who might flout the law, and the reason why there are only seven REGISTERED Animagi is that there are only seven HONEST Animagi. Does Rita Skeeter strike anyone as being particularly bright? Or honest? It took James, Sirius and Peter several years to master it, but they were still schoolboys. Adult wizards who have completed their education might find it considerably easier. > In Harry's compartment, three people were badly affected by the > Dementor: Harry, Ginny, AND Neville. "Ginny and Neville looked back > at him, both very pale." "It was horrible," said Neville, in a > higher voice than usual. "Did YOU feel how cold it got when it came > in?" We learn in GoF what horrors Neville has in his past (even if > he was not present when his parents were captured and tortured, he > has to go visit them at each holiday). Plus Ginny experienced being used by Tom Riddle and was in the Chamber of Secrets when she was only eleven-going-on-twelve. She might be reliving that when a dementor gets near her. > We also know one person who was badly affected OUTSIDE Harry's > compartment: Draco Malfoy. The twins tell Harry: "That little git," > [George] said calmly. "He wasn't so cocky last night when the > dementors were down at our end of the train. Came running into our > compartment, didn't he, Fred?" "Nearly wet himself," said Fred, > with a contemptuous glance at Malfoy. Malfoy shows again why he isn't a brave Gryffindor (besides the fact that he's only confident when his big goons are with him). He might very well have witnessed some intense Dark Magic, with Lucius for a dad. It would be interesting to know whether boggarts and dementors are related in some way, since they both connect somehow with a person's mind to draw out, and in the boggart's case, manifest the person's deepest fears. Of course, in Harry's case, the connection is that his boggart turns into a dementor. --Barb From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 13:32:04 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:32:04 -0000 Subject: Lucius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m5l0k+legd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24826 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > I'm still convinced that Lucius is going to try and overthrow Voldemort at some point in the books. It might be more likely for him to try to take Wormtail's position as number two. Then, with Wormtail out of the "inner circle" as it were, he (Peter) might finally do the right thing and pay his debt to Harry by going to him with the secret of how to defeat Voldemort... --Barb From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 13:42:38 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:42:38 -0000 Subject: Why Did Sirius Play the Joke on Snape?/Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <3B857872.6D3BF0C8@texas.net> Message-ID: <9m5lke+uclj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24827 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > > In PoA, we are told that Sirius plays a "joke" on Snape that could > > have gotten Snape killed by following Lupin to the Shrieking Shack. why in the world would Sirius deliberately set up a situation where > > Lupin, one of his best friends, kills someone and would thereby be > > expelled or worse? > > Hmmm. Because Snape did something to *him* in particular, sufficient to > make him focus entirely on revenge and not past that point--spied on > him, caught him doing something, whatever? Secondarily, because Sirius, > for some nebulous reason, "feels" impulsive to me. I don't believe he > thought it through. Had he, he might not have done it, but I don't think > Sirius is the think-it-through type. He's a mover and shaker. I agree! I've always had a big "Fred & George" vibe when I think about Sirius, James and Remus. I mean, they DID create the Marauder's Map. (Peter feels more like a Colin Creevy or some such). So the idea of Sirius just doing something mischevious that "sounded good at the time" fits in. Hmmm - speaking of mischief, perhaps the mischief-vibe from MWP&P was so strong that Fred & George were destined to find the Map? Question - in PoA, Fred & George tell Harry that they lifted the Marauder's Map from Filch, who had kept it in a file marked "Confiscated & Highly Dangerous". Has anyone come up with an idea on how Filch came by the map? I'd hate to think that Filch just discovered it on a random search. Sorry to switch topics in midstream, but I have a sudden need to know.... Denise (wondering why she never had a Marauder's Map when SHE was in school....) From issybizz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 13:56:36 2001 From: issybizz at hotmail.com (issybizz at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:56:36 -0000 Subject: Is JKR going to kill Harry or not? Message-ID: <9m5mek+usd4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24828 To me it seems certain that JKR is going to kill Harry Potter in book seven, due to three solid reasons: 1. In interviews with JKR, she has made it clear that the book series will end with book 7. (www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/jk_interview2.shtml) (Interviewer quote, 'And how vital is Book Four in the 7 book series for Harry?' JKR quote, 'Crucial. Book Four's a very very VERY important book. Something very important happens in Book Four. But also, it's literally a central book.') Why would JKR make book 7 the last? Because she's going to kill off Harry. 2. We also know that the last word of book 7 will be 'scar' (subject to editers change). I have done a little resurch and am certain it will read something like, 'Harry Potter, the greatest wizard of all time with the lightening bolt scar.' Why would she write a summery of Harry at the end of the book? I think this is because she is summerising harry's life when he was alive. 3. The death of harry will lead to the death of further Harry Potter books. So that we wont wonder what happens in the future. If Harry was to die then the reader wouldn't care (as much) about what life will be like after Hogwarts for Harry and his friends. IE- jobs, deaths, marrage etc... I have only one set back to my theory that Harry Potter will die. 1. JKR may be trying to make us believe that he will die, in the hope to shock us in book 7 when Harry lives). This is my opinnion anyway - and in my mind, i have no dought that Harry will come out alive in the end of book 7. From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 14:33:07 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:33:07 -0000 Subject: Muggle Parents In-Reply-To: <9m4ili+sj33@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m5oj3+vpuk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24829 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., degroote at a... wrote: > Anyway, anyone wondered about how Hermione's parents feel about > finding out that their little girl is a witch (something I >sometimes > suspect my 6 y/o of, LOL) and then sending her off to some place > they've never been and can't go to? I'd bet that since Harry showed signs of his "ability" early on, Hermione did too. And I get the feeling that Mr. & Mrs. Granger are a bit more open minded than the Dursleys, so when the letter came, they probably thought "Oh, so THAT'S what it's been!" (or something like that) >Do parents ever get to come and visit (other than for > the final task of the TriWizard Tournament)? If not, how can they > stand to be away from their children for so long-especially if they > stay at the castle during holidays? I'm assuming that we'll hear more about families and such when JKR discusses the professors and their families. At least, I hope so!! >Why don't Hermione's parents > read The Daily Prophet? I'd sure insist upon recieving and keeping > up with what's going on in my child's world! Hermione does receive The Daily Prophet at home (she mentions getting it delivered to her home in PoA) - and I'd guess that her parents read it too. I know if I had a wizarding student at home, I'd want to keep up on things! >I know that in GB > sending kids to boarding school is fairly common, but aren't these > long strtches without seeing parents (9-10 months)a bit unusual? I'd figure that most students go home during the winter holiday; since the halls are all but empty when Harry, Ron & Hermione stay at Hogwarts over the holiday, I'd guess that being away from home 9-10 months IS a bit unusual, but not uncommon. > Do > Hermione's parents use the Owl Post? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that muggles probably don't (can't?) use Owl Post, unless of course, Hermione sends them something and they respond using the same owl. > Do you think I'm a little obsessed with Hermione? She IS my > favourite character! She reminds me alot of what I imagine my 6 >y/o > daughter to be like in a few years. Maybe I'm so concerned about > these issues because I have wishful thinking that we'll recieve a > letter written in dark green ink in about 4 1/2 years inviting her >to > the American School of Witchcraft & Wizardry? Where do you suppose > it would be? Ok, here I go again... > > Would love to hear some of your thoughts! I'd love to know where an American school of W&W would be - if the USA had one at all - maybe it's in Canada? Or Mexico? After all, Hogwarts may be in Scotland, not England. Its fun to speculate, though! - Denise (wishing she had received a letter written in dark green ink when she was 11) From mindyatime at juno.com Fri Aug 24 15:48:45 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:48:45 -0400 Subject: Response to Steve Message-ID: <20010824.114857.-354055.32.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24830 Okay. I knew the day would come when the sheer volume of HP emails would overwhelm me. I am behind with 6 digests. I don't know when I'll ever got to read them. But I do want to answer Steve's question about my reading habits. As I mentioned, I dont read any adult or young adult fiction. Only juvenile fiction. But not too often. The only other fantasy series I read are The Mennyms -- which I mentioned, and loved -- and two books by Richard Peck, I've forgotten which. I fell into the HP crazy b/c I was going on vacation and needed something to read, and a friend of mine recommended the series. But generally I do not read much. Judaica books would be difficult for you to understand. They are novels but with Jewish themes and lots of the expressions in there are Yiddish or Hebrew. HP is really the only non-Jewish books I read. Hope that answers your questions. You can email me if you have any other questions. MINDY who is drowning in HP emails From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 16:02:03 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:02:03 -0000 Subject: The importance of a good education In-Reply-To: <9m5i25+6ll9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m5tpr+lc62@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24831 Barb wrote: > It seems to me that it > would be MORE dangerous to have people with magic in them receiving > no training or inadequate training in magic. In fact, you'd think > Lupin would have worked extra hard at Potions to be able to make the > Wolfsbane Potion himself! It hadn't been invented yet. And maybe he *did* work extra hard in Potions; he just says he isn't very good at it. Even the most brilliant student, working hard, has subjects he/she can master only adequately. Good point on the perils of not going to school. I can understand why Dumbledore takes the attitude of trying to accommodate any magical student; it isn't just softheartedness or unprejudicedness (is that a word?), but very pragmatic. Amy Z defender of Remus Lupin's honor --------------------------------------------- "Just forget the egg for a minute, all right?" Harry hissed, as Professor Flitwick went whizzing resignedly past them, landing on top of a large cabinet. -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------- (thanks, Jenny!) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 16:16:40 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:16:40 -0000 Subject: Kill Harry? and P.S. on Lupin In-Reply-To: <9m5mek+usd4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m5ul8+ooun@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24832 Izzybizz wrote: > Why would JKR make book 7 the > last? Because she's going to kill off Harry. I think there's a simpler reason: just as each book is structured around the school year, the books will end when Harry's time at Hogwarts does. That's my hope, anyway. Also, JKR likes to plant doubts and rumors in our minds to keep things interesting. The cliffhangers are scarier if we have a nagging fear that Harry won't make it out of this one (this only works in Book 7, of course--no one thinks he'll die before then--right? RIGHT?). I didn't give the reference for my supremely confident statement that the Wolfsbane Potion didn't exist when Lupin was a kid. It's in PA chapter 18, the several paragraphs beginning with "I was a very small boy . . ." Amy Z -------------------------------------------- "Winky is having trouble adjusting, Harry Potter," squeaked Dobby confidentially. -HP and the Goblet of Fire -------------------------------------------- From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 24 16:55:53 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:55:53 -0000 Subject: Kill Harry? In-Reply-To: <9m5ul8+ooun@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m60up+650t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24833 I don't think Harry will die in the books. Partly because I seem to remember JKR saying something to that effect once (although I could be wrong) but more importantly because it doesn't go along with the tenor and theme of the books. They are childrens books, whether JKR intended them as such when she wrote them or not (and I'm sure she did, in one sense of the word at least; they're *about* children). The fact that they appeal so strongly to adults too, is a fluke and a result of good writing, but they're published and written for kids. Kids reading these books want and expect Harry to triumph over evil/Voldemort, not to die fighting him, even if Voldemort dies, too. Where's the triumph in that? As adults, we can rationalize that sometimes such a sacrifice is necessary (as indeed does Harry), but in a child's mind, having him actually die is cheating. It would violate the first rule of writing: give the reader the payoff. If Harry isn't left standing at the end, so to speak, I for one will feel that the whole series has been for naught. Bente From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 24 17:14:57 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:14:57 -0000 Subject: Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation Message-ID: <9m622h+p557@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24834 I have always been puzzled about why JKR has Dumbledore summon Winky for Crouch's interrogation. Here are Winky's lines (abbreviated): "Say no more, Master Barty, say no more, you is getting your father into trouble!" "Master Barty, Master Barty. You isn't ought to tell them, we is getting in trouble. . . ." "Why is [Jorkins] coming into my master's business? Why isn't she leaving us be?" "Master Barty, you bad boy. "Wail of despair." "Noooo! Master Barty, what is you saying?" As far as I can tell, Winky is just making a lot of noise and adding nothing of substance. So why did JKR include her in the scene? Wouldn't it have been better to just do the interrogation and be done with it? Or is there some reason I'm missing that Winky needs to be there? Cindy (feeling like a house elf today) From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Aug 24 17:14:04 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:14:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24835 I actually have been pondering all of this recently, and everything I say here is not based in canon at all, but is just IMHO... Degroote wrote: > Anyway, anyone wondered about how Hermione's parents feel about > finding out that their little girl is a witch (something I sometimes > suspect my 6 y/o of, LOL) and then sending her off to some place > they've never been and can't go to? Would they be distracted by some > errand (as JKR says muggles are when they appraoch Hogwart's gates), > or could they have a charm placed on them that would allow them to > enter, etc? Do parents ever get to come and visit (other than for > the final task of the TriWizard Tournament)? I am sure there has to be a way to bring Muggles into Hogwarts - squibs can get in, so why shouldn't Muggles be able to? I guess this leads to a different question - is there a difference between Muggles and Squibs? Of course, maybe that's why Filch is in such a bad mood all the time...but that's for a different post. Even if Muggle parents cannot get into the school, there doesn't seem to be anything preventing Dumbledore from hosting a reception in or near Hogsmeade for all the parents of incoming Muggle students during the summer before first year starts, with magical demonstrations, etc - and a few flunkies from the ministry to Obliviate if anyone gets out of control or quits the place. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 24 17:19:52 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:19:52 -0000 Subject: Why Did Sirius Play the Joke on Snape? In-Reply-To: <3B857872.6D3BF0C8@texas.net> Message-ID: <9m62bo+6no7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24836 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > > In PoA, we are told that Sirius plays a "joke" on Snape that could > > have gotten Snape killed by following Lupin to the Shrieking Shack. > > > > I have always had trouble with this. Lupin was lucky to be admitted > > to Hogwarts in the first place, and elaborate protections have been > > put in place so Lupin can attend school. Wizards don't like > > werewolves, and Lupin is keeping it quiet that he's a werewolf. Lupin > > is one of Sirius' best friends. Sirius knows all of these things, is > > smart, and is at least a fifth year student. > > > > So why in the world would Sirius deliberately set up a situation where > > Lupin, one of his best friends, kills someone and would thereby be > > expelled or worse? > > Hmmm. Because Snape did something to *him* in particular, sufficient to > make him focus entirely on revenge and not past that point--spied on > him, caught him doing something, whatever? Secondarily, because Sirius, > for some nebulous reason, "feels" impulsive to me. I don't believe he > thought it through. Had he, he might not have done it, but I don't think > Sirius is the think-it-through type. He's a mover and shaker. Plenty of > very intelligent people do very dumb things for this very reason. > > > And why doesn't Lupin show any signs of ever having been at all > > peeved about being used like this? > > Probably because they had at least two years at Hogwarts and X years > afterward to have fought about it, sniped about it, and worked it out, > so that it was not of sufficient importance to have been revisited in > the minute sample of Lupin/Sirius interaction that we've seen. > > --Amanda Amanda, I think your explanation is the only thing that makes sense. But I'm still troubled by this. I think it would work better if Sirius had done something careless (rather than deliberate) that tipped Snape about Lupin and set up the situation where Snape follows Lupin into the Shrieking Shack. That would explain better why Lupin would forgive Lupin. And most importantly, it wouldn't give me such a powerful reason to dislike Sirius when I desperately want to like everything about him. Then the blame for the whole incident would be more on Snape (where it should be) than on Sirius (where most of it is now). > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Aug 24 17:23:03 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:23:03 -0000 Subject: Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation In-Reply-To: <9m622h+p557@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m62hn+eum5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24837 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > I have always been puzzled about why JKR has Dumbledore summon Winky > for Crouch's interrogation. Here are Winky's lines (abbreviated): > > As far as I can tell, Winky is just making a lot of noise and adding > nothing of substance. So why did JKR include her in the scene? > Wouldn't it have been better to just do the interrogation and be done > with it? Or is there some reason I'm missing that Winky needs to be > there? Good question - of course we don't know much about the effectiveness of Veritaserum. Perhaps there are powerful antidotes that can protect the subject from the serum's truth-telling effects. If that's the case, Winky may have been included by Dumbledore as a means of establishing Crouch's veracity. She probably wouldn;t have so reacted to a fictitious account. - CMC From kira at kc.rr.com Fri Aug 24 17:39:11 2001 From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:39:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation References: <9m622h+p557@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <004a01c12cc3$db271120$a473f2d1@lisaannc> No: HPFGUIDX 24838 I personally believe that Dumbledore had an ulterior motive for this. He knows just about everything that is taking place at Hogwarts, so he knows how despondent Winky has been since Crouch Sr gave her clothes. I believe that he had her brought in to witness the interrogation to snap her out of her depression. After all, now that Crouch Sr is deceased, she had no "family" to work for but Hogwarts. She needs to snap out of it and start moving on with her life. She now knows just how evil Crouch Jr was and that he does not deserve her devotion after killing his father. Lisa-Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 12:14 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation As far as I can tell, Winky is just making a lot of noise and adding nothing of substance. So why did JKR include her in the scene? Wouldn't it have been better to just do the interrogation and be done with it? Or is there some reason I'm missing that Winky needs to be there? Cindy (feeling like a house elf today) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 18:13:47 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:13:47 -0000 Subject: Evil Overlords and their Groupies In-Reply-To: <3B85AF37.F2F95CA2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9m65gr+q93r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24839 Pam:"It always bothers me a bit when I see the clearly psychopathic or the antisocial referred to as insane. But psychopaths are *not* insane by clinical or legal standards." It's just that us laypeople don't have the precise use of the vocabulary that professionals like you have. A lot of us are using "insane" in the layman's sense of "this dude's not OK!" I didn't know the term "successful" psychopath, but it made sense to me right away and increased my understanding just by hearing it. Pam:"The "good" ones are pretty much always charming and definitely manipulative. Voldemort is a frightening character, in part because he is not crazy. For him to be unhinged would detract from his power to instill the creeps in me." Definitely. Same with Lucius, and I agree that Voldemort is probably less "successful", since his arrogance, self-absorption, and hatred is leading him to gloat over Harry instead of just killing him. Lucius wouldn't have hesitated a second, and then gone to dinner without another thought. Pam:"That was my problem with Barty, Jr. and why the whole Mad-Eye thing proved to be ultimately disappointing to me. When JKR made him unhinged, she (IMHO) undermined the masterful portrait she had created of a supreme deceiver and manipulator, willing to do anything to anybody--no matter how heinous--to achieve his ends; in the end, he became just another nutty zealot." This was JKR's best twist yet -- I never suspected a thing -- but the denouement could have been better. I thought the "Mad, am I?" bit was a little trite, and I agree that when he came unglued it wasn't consistent with the deception he'd played all year. OTOH, it wasn't the "Fallacy of the Talking Killer" thing again, because it was believable that Barty would want to find out what Harry had seen. You could also say the portrait JKR did give us was of how a psycho like Voldemort attracts the mentally vulnerable. Pam:"Big V and Lucius Malfoy (who may be a better psychopath than Big V) have led me to wonder about JKR's conception of the nature of evil and its appearance in everyday life. I know we've tackled that thread before and we're kinda talking about it again with this whole Evil Overlord thing." If we can only discuss important points like this once, we ought to unsub and let a new group have at it. Philosophers and theologians have spent centuries at it and it's still not settled. Evil begins when humans stop seeing the humanity in others. That's what allows human beings to watch other human beings starve, or lets Voldemort order 'kill the *spare*,' an entirely irrelevant meat sack. From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 18:37:58 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:37:58 -0000 Subject: Muggle Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m66u6+o5q5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24840 Heidi:"I am sure there has to be a way to bring Muggles into Hogwarts - squibs can get in, so why shouldn't Muggles be able to?" There's been guests at Hogwarts, including parents of the Champions in GoF, and nothing said they were all magical. Also, IIRC, Hermione's parents made it to Platform 9 3/4, and they certainly have been to Diagon Alley. Probably Muggles just can't get in to magical places on their own. From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 18:55:07 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:55:07 -0000 Subject: Muggle Parents In-Reply-To: <9m4ili+sj33@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m67ub+tp13@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24841 First and most important, welcome! We're glad you joined. Degroote:"This my first posting. I'm so happy to find this site to talk other grown ups about Harry Potter. Anyone else a thirtysomething mom or dad whose kids are too young to read HP themselves?" How's 51 with a 9 and a 7 who read Harry all the time? DeGroote:"...anyone wondered about how Hermione's parents feel about finding out that their little girl is a witch (something I sometimes suspect my 6 y/o of, LOL) and then sending her off to some place they've never been and can't go to?" Consider the shock. Not only has your world and reality been turned inside out, but your kid's going there. It'd be a lot like sending her off to some other planet, from which she'll never return. Oh, she'll return physically, but she (or he) won't be the same anymore. And what happens when your child marries one of her wizarding schoolmates? "I'll be lucky to see her twice a year." The best people to help you through it would be the ones who've gone through it already. It would make sense to have the Muggle parents of magical students who are already at Hogwarts (or graduated, even) visit the new family and help them deal with it. Hermione is a fascinating character. She's the one who prepares Harry for the trials he faces, his coach. Have you wondered, as she has, why the Sorting Hat didn't put her in Ravenclaw? That old Hat knows what it's doing. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Aug 24 18:58:40 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:58:40 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation In-Reply-To: <9m622h+p557@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010824115725.00bb13b0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24842 At 05:14 PM 8/24/01 +0000, cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: >As far as I can tell, Winky is just making a lot of noise and adding >nothing of substance. So why did JKR include her in the scene? >Wouldn't it have been better to just do the interrogation and be done >with it? Or is there some reason I'm missing that Winky needs to be >there? And as someone else pointed out, Dumbledore calls for Winky *before* he knows who the Moody impostor is!!!! -- Dave From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 24 18:59:14 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:59:14 -0000 Subject: Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation In-Reply-To: <004a01c12cc3$db271120$a473f2d1@lisaannc> Message-ID: <9m6862+l5ib@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24843 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" wrote: > I personally believe that Dumbledore had an ulterior motive for this. He knows just about everything that is taking place at Hogwarts, so he knows how despondent Winky has been since Crouch Sr gave her clothes. I believe that he had her brought in to witness the interrogation to snap her out of her depression. After all, now that Crouch Sr is deceased, she had no "family" to work for but Hogwarts. She needs to snap out of it and start moving on with her life. She now knows just how evil Crouch Jr was and that he does not deserve her devotion after killing his father. > > Lisa-Ann You know, I think I figured out why JKR put Winky into the interrogation scene. Winky witnesses the interrogation, then Dumbledore tells McGonnagle to stand guard over Crouch. Winky remains in the room. Then, many pages later, Dumbledore tells Madam Pomfrey to take Winky to the kitchens. So JKR just needed a convenient excuse to get Madam Pomfrey out of the hospital wing when Snape and Sirius kiss and make up, and Winky was the excuse. Cindy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cynthiaanncoe at h... > To: HPforGrownups at y... > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 12:14 PM > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation > > > > As far as I can tell, Winky is just making a lot of noise and adding > nothing of substance. So why did JKR include her in the scene? > Wouldn't it have been better to just do the interrogation and be done > with it? Or is there some reason I'm missing that Winky needs to be > there? > > Cindy (feeling like a house elf today) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 19:18:51 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:18:51 -0000 Subject: Is JKR going to kill Harry or not? In-Reply-To: <9m5mek+usd4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m69ar+91eb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24844 Issy:"In interviews with JKR, she has made it clear that the book series will end with book 7." "Why would JKR make book 7 the last? Because she's going to kill off Harry." Hold on, folks. That's quite a leap there. She's making Book 7 the last because she will have finished the story of Harry's years at Hogwarts and the Second Voldemort War. We can't say it's the end of Harry's life also. She doesn't want to write more after that. Izzy:"I have done a little resurch and am certain it will read something like, 'Harry Potter, the greatest wizard of all time with the lightening bolt scar.'" We'd love to know your sources. Personally, I have it on good authority - I've been put under a Fidelius charm, I can't reveal my sources - that it's "Well, I'm glad we cleared up that misunderstanding," said Voldemort. "Let's have dinner at the Leaky Cauldron, what do you say?" "That sounds good," said Harry. "But how will we get there? I'm too tired to Apparate." "No problem," Voldemort answered. "We'll take Wormtail's car." Izzy:"The death of harry will lead to the death of further Harry Potter books. So that we wont wonder what happens in the future. If Harry was to die then the reader wouldn't care (as much) about what life will be like after Hogwarts for Harry and his friends. IE- jobs, deaths, marrage etc..." LOL!!! WAY too late for that. We spend a ridulous amount of time now, today, speculating about every possible aspect of Harry's future life, and we've paired the poor guy up with everybody but Winky, and I'll bet I'm wrong about *that*. "Death of future Harry Potter books?" Don't count on it. Having said all that, JKR *might* - repeat, *might* - kill off Harry at the end of Book 7 for any of a zillion reasons. I don't think she will, but I know I can't back that opionion up. But if she thinks it guarantees she won't have to write any more Harry Potter books, then she should reflect on the writing life of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and then read "The Final Problem" and "The Empty House." From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 19:30:58 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:30:58 -0000 Subject: Wands and wandless magic In-Reply-To: <9m3k4i+dpma@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6a1i+j4uj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24845 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > I haven't reviewed all of the discussions about whether Animagi take > their wands with them, and I don't recall much in the books about it > either way. We don't know if McGonnagle has a wand when she > transforms from a cat early in Book 1. Sirius doesn't have a wand > because he's been in Azkaban, and he doesn't have one in Book 4 > because he can't just go to Diagon Alley and buy one. Maybe a wand > is a magical item that can't transform with the animagi. I think it highly unlikely that animagi transform without their wands. I get the feeling from Harry, that when in the magical world, and even when stranded in the Muggle world, the wand is essential, and that most witches and wizards would feel naked without it. I would go as far as to say that a wand is almost an extension of self, thus making a witch or wizard without it feel very insecure at best, or as though some part of themselves were missing, at worst. Therefore, it makes absolutely no sense to me that a witch/wizard can't keep their wands with them when they transform. It is also not practical. We know that they keep their clothes - it stands to reason that they keep everything on their person. Look at travelling, for instance. We know a lot of people do not like apparating. What if they wanted to travel somewhere in their animal form, which may be very convenient if they happen to be an animal which can fly, for instance. They can't exactly do this and leave the wand behind, can they? All in all, it seems very impractical, and IMO, nonsensical, for them not to have their wands with them, which is why I am not discounting my own theories on the absence of Pettigrew's wand just yet. Catherine. BTW: Another subject which has been done to death, but is a natural extension of this discussion. What happened to Voldemort's wand? Did it disappear with him, only to become tangible again when Pettigrew helped him take on some semblence of human form. Or was it retrieved for him? From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Aug 24 19:34:47 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Aug 2001 19:34:47 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <998681687.4833.38953.s8@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24846 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /HP Trading Cards/HPCards.html Uploaded by : klaatu at primenet.com Description : Harry Potter Trading Card List - preliminary list of card details. You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HP%20Trading%20Cards/HPCards.html To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, klaatu at primenet.com From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 19:36:19 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:36:19 -0000 Subject: Lucius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m6abj+f1ks@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24847 Amber:"Hence my hypothesis that Lucius is going to die and that this will have an interesting effect on Draco. Perhaps it will result in the longed-for turning to Dumbledore's side that so many list members are hoping for." Good one! the idea of a double-cross gone wrong makes sense, since I don't see Lucius as being natural to subservience. And the one Draco redemption scenario I could give any chance to was one where Draco got some gore on himself where it wasn't a game anymore. Draco seems fairly close to his father - he's stung by his father's criticism, but writes and talks to him - and Daddy's death would really get to Draco. If it doesn't happen, you should write a fic where it does. From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Aug 24 19:35:26 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:35:26 -0000 Subject: Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation In-Reply-To: <9m622h+p557@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6a9u+qicb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24848 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > I have always been puzzled about why JKR has Dumbledore summon Winky > for Crouch's interrogation. Here are Winky's lines (abbreviated): > > "Say no more, Master Barty, say no more, you is getting your father > into trouble!" > > "Master Barty, Master Barty. You isn't ought to tell them, we is > getting in trouble. . . ." > > "Why is [Jorkins] coming into my master's business? Why isn't she > leaving us be?" > > "Master Barty, you bad boy. > > "Wail of despair." > > "Noooo! Master Barty, what is you saying?" > > As far as I can tell, Winky is just making a lot of noise and adding > nothing of substance. So why did JKR include her in the scene? > Wouldn't it have been better to just do the interrogation and be done > with it? Or is there some reason I'm missing that Winky needs to be > there? Under Veritaserum, Barty Crouch almost loses his inhibitions and tells the truth. Winky is almost acting like his Super Ego with her warnings and admonitions. Milz "Get into Wormtail's car" ROTFLMAO..... From klaatu at primenet.com Fri Aug 24 19:42:09 2001 From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:42:09 -0700 Subject: HP Trading Cards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24849 I've just uploaded a preliminary list of the details of the HP Trading Cards. Descriptions are skimpy at this time, as I only have possession of 19 unique cards. Anyone who has the descriptions of any of the others, please send them to me at klaatu at primenet.com [klaatu (at) primenet (dot) com] and I'll add them to the list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HP%20Trading%20Cards/HPCar ds.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPTradingCards/ SML ================================== Inside every older person is a younger person - wondering what the hell happened. ================================== From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 19:39:37 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:39:37 -0000 Subject: Why Did Sirius Play the Joke on Snape? In-Reply-To: <9m62bo+6no7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6ahp+uf7u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24850 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > > So why in the world would Sirius deliberately set up a > > > situation where Lupin, one of his best friends, kills someone > > > and would thereby be expelled or worse? > > > I think it would work better if Sirius had done something careless > (rather than deliberate) that tipped Snape about Lupin and set up > the situation where Snape follows Lupin into the Shrieking Shack. > That would explain better why Lupin would forgive Lupin. And most > importantly, it wouldn't give me such a powerful reason to dislike > Sirius when I desperately want to like everything about him. Then > the blame for the whole incident would be more on Snape (where it > should be) than on Sirius (where most of it is now). Well, according to Sirius, Snape did start it. In PoA, Sirius says that Snape was always "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to...hoping he could get us expelled...." Sirius was probably fed up with Snape's Filch-like ways and decided to play a joke on him. I agree that the "joke" was way out of line, but Lupin said that during WMP&P's days at Hogwarts, there were "...alot of near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards." I'm guessing many of the adventures - including Sirius' "practical joke" on Snape - that were lightly brushed off when they were young, weighed heavy on Lupin, James AND Sirius as they got older. And that Sirius spoke harshly about it because of his guilt over the episode (and residual dislike of Snape) rather than any weakness of character. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 19:44:14 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:44:14 -0000 Subject: Wands and wandless magic In-Reply-To: <9m6a1i+j4uj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6aqf+5g7k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24851 Catherine:"I think it highly unlikely that animagi transform without their wands. I get the feeling from Harry, that when in the magical world, and even when stranded in the Muggle world, the wand is essential, and that most witches and wizards would feel naked without it." Animagi transformation must be able to be done wandlessly. Sirius escapes from Azkaban by transforming, and hasn't had his wand in twelve years. Pettigrew does the same thing and *then* grabs a wand. Hermione puts Rita Skeeter into an Unbreakably-charmed jar to keep her from transforming back to human form from beetle form. And how would Rita bring her wand with her? She can't grasp it (touching is probably good enough) but she can't take it, and I'd be surprised if many witches or wizards were willing to leave their wands behind, no matter how well hidden it was. From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 19:47:52 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:47:52 -0000 Subject: Kill Harry? In-Reply-To: <9m60up+650t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6b18+q6m8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24852 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > I don't think Harry will die in the books. Partly because I seem to > remember JKR saying something to that effect once (although I could > be wrong) but more importantly because it doesn't go along with the > tenor and theme of the books. They are childrens books, whether JKR > intended them as such when she wrote them or not (and I'm sure she > did, in one sense of the word at least; they're *about* children). > The fact that they appeal so strongly to adults too, is a fluke and a > result of good writing, but they're published and written for kids. > Kids reading these books want and expect Harry to triumph over > evil/Voldemort, not to die fighting him, even if Voldemort dies, too. > Where's the triumph in that? As adults, we can rationalize that > sometimes such a sacrifice is necessary (as indeed does Harry), but > in a child's mind, having him actually die is cheating. It would > violate the first rule of writing: give the reader the payoff. If > Harry isn't left standing at the end, so to speak, I for one will > feel that the whole series has been for naught. > > Bente I've always held on to the hope that JKR won't kill Harry because these stories started out as stories she told to her daughter. And you'd want to tell positive, uplifting stories to your own kids, right? From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 19:57:25 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:57:25 -0000 Subject: Wands and wandless magic In-Reply-To: <9m6aqf+5g7k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6bj5+3t5c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24853 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Catherine:"I think it highly unlikely that animagi transform without > their wands. I get the feeling from Harry, that when in the magical > world, and even when stranded in the Muggle world, the wand is > essential, and that most witches and wizards would feel naked without > it." > > Animagi transformation must be able to be done wandlessly. Sirius > escapes from Azkaban by transforming, and hasn't had his wand in > twelve years. Pettigrew does the same thing and *then* grabs a > wand. Hermione puts Rita Skeeter into an Unbreakably-charmed jar to > keep her from transforming back to human form from beetle form. And > how would Rita bring her wand with her? She can't grasp it (touching > is probably good enough) but she can't take it, and I'd be surprised > if many witches or wizards were willing to leave their wands behind, > no matter how well hidden it was. Sorry, I didn't express myself very well. What I meant to say was, tht they don't use their wands for transformation, but that they keep their wands with them at all times, regardless of whether they are transformed or not - ie. in a pocket or something. Serves me right for writing something in a hurry! Catherine From frantyck at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 20:11:08 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:11:08 -0000 Subject: Descriptions; and what about the other four senses? Message-ID: <9m6ccs+v2fs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24854 Hi, all. This is a bit of a tangent, but: Most authors expend substantial effort on description, describing scenes, events or characters so that readers will be able to visualise them. The best descriptions often offer no more than hints, keywords, a trained butler's unobtrusive opening of a particular door. The reader goes through that door himself or herself. Rowling, apparently, is a master of this form of buttling. I noticed fairly early that her descriptions are slyly non-descriptive. She gives what she wants to describe a name, and leaves the rest up to the reader. The following examples are all from PS/SS. Consider her description of Hagrid when he bursts into the Hut-on-the- Rock. He's large, hairy, and has beetle-bright eyes. He has a large overcoat and a pink umbrella. Now Draco Malfoy, in Madam Malkin's the first time: "a boy with a pale, pointed face." Mr Ollivander: "An old man was standing before them, his wide pale eyes shining like moons through the gloom of the shop." Ron Weasley, at King's Cross: "tall, thin and gangling, with freckles, big hands and feet and a long nose." Oh yes, and there was the little black smudge on his nose. Hermione, on the Hogwarts Express: "She had a bossy sort of voice, lots of bushy brown hair and rather large front teeth." Professor McGonagall, meeting the first years at the castle door: "She had a very stern face and Harry's first thought was that this was not someone to cross." Snape, at the first Hogwarts dinner: "a teacher with greasy black hair, a hooked nose and sallow skin." In each case, this is *more or less* all that we ever hear about the appearance of these characters. What Rowling gives the reader is an assemblage of discrete physical characteristics; the reader fills in the gaps, literally. For example, the description of Hermione made me think instantly of a woman in _Asterix in Corsica_ (p.9, if you're interested! British, big teeth, bushy brown hair, and likes to cook in boiling water... I ask you). What Rowling's reader later finds out about the characters is based on what they say and how they behave. Here's a revealing example: the goblin outside Gringott's. "'Yeah, that's a goblin,' said Hagrid quietly." Okay, swarthy face and pointy fingers are mentioned... but that one line of Hagrid's is sufficient - - and oddly exciting. Why does this work? Does this fragmented listing of a few topographical features of each character reflect the way we actually apprehend someone the first time we meet them? I'm not sure, but Rowling obviously makes it work. There's more to be said, but... Second-to-last point: the five senses, used as a tool in description. Rowling's world is unusually muffled in all except visual terms. For example, references to smell or odour are dead rare. What does Hagrid's hut smell like? What do pupils smell in the potions classroom? in Professor Sprout's greenhouses? Or, why doesn't Harry hear the sea or feel the sunlight or the stone under him when he wakes up the morning of his birthday in the Hut-on-the-Rock? In CoS, Harry's Polyjuice Potion tastes like "overcooked cabbage?" That brings me to my last point: Rowling's unadventurous adjectives. Fat, brown, mouldy, huge, horrible, blank, cold, hot, etc. Rather bland fare. Conversely, her verbs and nouns are almost unbelievably apposite... Urging, squinting, swishing, flickering, scrambling, etc. They give the texts forward motion, the urgency of action. Sometimes, adjective, verb and noun come together brilliantly: think of the ultra-spare "rush of fierce joy" that fully describes Harry's feelings the first time he flies. Many of you have found other such instances in the current "favourite moments" thread. Summary (sort of): the scrambling, forward pace of the HP books, I think, owes as much to details of style and language as it does to plot. Or rather, the stern utilitarianism with which Rowling develops her plots applies equally to her choice of words. Does this make any sense? From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 20:16:52 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:16:52 -0000 Subject: Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation In-Reply-To: <9m622h+p557@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6cnk+aruk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24855 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > I have always been puzzled about why JKR has Dumbledore summon Winky > for Crouch's interrogation. Or is there some reason I'm missing that Winky needs to be > there? > > Cindy (feeling like a house elf today) Cindy - I think that there is some reason why JKR placed Winky in that scene. Winky will probably need to know what happened to Crouch Sr. and exacly how insane/evil Crouch Jr. was. And she probaby wouldn't have believed it unless it came straight from Crouch Jr. himself. And her knowledge of what really happened will probaby come into play in later books. - Denise (who will give you a sock, if you need one) From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 20:22:59 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:22:59 -0000 Subject: Muggle Parents In-Reply-To: <9m67ub+tp13@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6d33+sfg8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24856 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > The best people to help you through it would be the ones who've gone > through it already. It would make sense to have the Muggle parents > of magical students who are already at Hogwarts (or graduated, even) > visit the new family and help them deal with it. Oooh! Or perhaps they have support groups? I've heard of Al-Anon; would this be Wiz-Anon? I'll never look at a community center in quite the same way again.... From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 20:30:10 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:30:10 -0000 Subject: Kill Harry? In-Reply-To: <9m6b18+q6m8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6dgi+q7qc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24857 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > > I've always held on to the hope that JKR won't kill Harry because > these stories started out as stories she told to her daughter. And > you'd want to tell positive, uplifting stories to your own kids, > right?In one of her interviews Rowling talks about her daughter's reaction to the books. Apparently sh has very strong feelings that nothing should happen to Harry! Cedric's death didn't phase her much "As long as Harry's okay!" I don't remember what interview it was, or what the exact words were. I juts don't see her killing him off. I do however think that someone very important will die, and as much as I hate to imagine it, I suspect it will be Sirius. --Suzanne From vderark at bccs.org Fri Aug 24 20:45:24 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:45:24 -0000 Subject: HP Trading Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9m6ed4+78l9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24858 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" wrote: > I've just uploaded a preliminary list of the details of the HP Trading > Cards. A complete list of all the cards with scans of the faces and all the text on the cards except "colour" text (quotes from the books) can be found here: http://www.pojo.com/harrypotter/ccg/BaseSetSpoiler.htm I have quite a few of the cards and I love playing the game. I play with my nine-year-old. He tends to beat me a lot, but he has more and nastier creatures in his deck than I do in mine. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon which has a page about the card game http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 24 21:06:28 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:06:28 -0000 Subject: Muggle Parents In-Reply-To: <9m67ub+tp13@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6fkk+3rtg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24859 In reply to degroote: I'm 33 and the oldest of my 3 kids is 4, so it will be several years before she'll be reading my HP books. So much the better! In regards to muggle parents, perhaps muggles don't want to see magical places rather than can't see them. Often people don't see what they don't WANT to see. However if muggles know of and accept such places, such as platform 9 3/4, then perhaps they have access to them as well. After all, how many people would even consider trying to walk through the barrier between platforms 9 and 10? Remember, even Harry had to be told how to access the platform. Just a thought! From kcbenzin at bu.edu Fri Aug 24 21:57:45 2001 From: kcbenzin at bu.edu (kcbenzin at bu.edu) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:57:45 -0000 Subject: Favourite Details. In-Reply-To: <9m5g4l+b3f7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6ikp+8iuh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24860 Hi everyone! FIrst I'd like tosay how much I enjoy reading all of your thought provoking discussions in this group. It's really given me something to do while waiting for the next book. I also wanted to share my favorite detail from the books: In GoF when Percy mentions the dragon dung he recieved on his desk. Percy tries to justify it as fertilizer samples, not a personal insult. Fred (or was it George?) informs Harry that "It was personal...we sent it!" Little details such as that in the books really make me love them! From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 24 22:03:37 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:03:37 -0000 Subject: Muggle Parents In-Reply-To: <9m66u6+o5q5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6ivp+6354@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24861 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Heidi:"I am sure there has to be a way to bring Muggles into > Hogwarts - squibs can get in, so why shouldn't Muggles be able to?" > > There's been guests at Hogwarts, including parents of the Champions > in GoF, and nothing said they were all magical. Also, IIRC, > Hermione's parents made it to Platform 9 3/4, and they certainly have > been to Diagon Alley. Probably Muggles just can't get in to magical > places on their own. I think Muggles can come to Hogwarts for special events. Before the Third Task, Harry considers and dismisses the possibility that the Dursleys will come. He figures this is because they won't bother, not that Muggles aren't allowed. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 24 22:51:51 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:51:51 -0000 Subject: Muggle Parents In-Reply-To: <9m66u6+o5q5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6lq7+he5n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24862 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Heidi:"I am sure there has to be a way to bring Muggles into > Hogwarts - squibs can get in, so why shouldn't Muggles be able to?" > > There's been guests at Hogwarts, including parents of the Champions > in GoF, and nothing said they were all magical. Also, IIRC, > Hermione's parents made it to Platform 9 3/4, and they certainly have > been to Diagon Alley. Probably Muggles just can't get in to magical > places on their own. Moaning Myrtle had Muggle parents, according to Draco, "last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened a Mudblood *died*. CoS ch. 11 and Riddle tells Hagrid, in ch. 13, that "the dead girl's parents will be here tomorrow." Not the most reliable sources in the world, but it does seem that Muggles have visited the school. I think though, that Harry was unique among the tri-wizard champions in having a muggle-born parent, for Hagrid says that if Harry won, "it'd show 'em all, yeh don't have ter be pure-blood ter do it." GoF ch.24. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 24 23:27:40 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:27:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's Favorite Things [FILK] Message-ID: <9m6ntc+tf0f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24863 Snape's Favorite Things A Filk by Pippin to the tune of 'My Favorite Things' from The Sound of Music Dedicated to the Snapefans group Toad guts and rat spleens and lacewings and leeches Slimy things floating in jars where he teaches Bicorns and bezoars, billywig stings These are a few of Snape's favorite things Wrecking the roses, evicting the smitten Bagging on Ron because Malfoy got bitten Binding up Lupin with magical strings These are a few of Snape's favorite things Telling Malfoy to cast serpensortia Catching those prats with their blue Ford Anglia Swishing his cloak like a big pair of wings These are a few of Snape's favorite things Stalking Hogwarts In the evenings Searching high and low 'Cause picking on Harry's his favorite thing Wherever the kid may go. Threatening harm until someone confesses Which side he'll end up on, anyone's guess is Is he a good guy or is it a sting? Pondering Snape is my favorite thing Stalking Hogwarts In the evenings Looking like a bat But if he's a vampire There's no way to know 'Cause Rowling ain't told us that From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 24 23:48:05 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:48:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kill Harry? References: <9m60up+650t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B86E7B4.4CFBAF8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24864 Bente13 at peoplepc.com wrote: > I don't think Harry will die in the books. Partly because I seem to > remember JKR saying something to that effect once (although I could be > wrong) but more importantly because it doesn't go along with the tenor > and theme of the books. If Harry's death involves self-sacrifice, loyalty, a choice of good over bad, it certainly *would* go along with the themes of the books. The tenor has been getting consistently darker, but as far as death is concerned, there has already been at least one noble death portrayed prominently (Lily's, probably James' too), with a positive end result (Harry lived). Also, death as a good guy is preferable to life as a bad guy--Sirius pretty much says so in the Shrieking Shack. So some groundwork has already been laid, should she go that way. > They are childrens books, whether JKR intended them as such when she > wrote them or not (and I'm sure she did, in one sense of the word at > least; they're *about* children). > The fact that they appeal so strongly to adults too, is a fluke and a > result of good writing, but they're published and written for kids. > Kids reading these books want and expect Harry to triumph over > evil/Voldemort, not to die fighting him, even if Voldemort dies, too. > Where's the triumph in that? As adults, we can rationalize that > sometimes such a sacrifice is necessary (as indeed does Harry), but in > a child's mind, having him actually die is cheating. It would violate > the first rule of writing: give the reader the payoff. If Harry isn't > left standing at the end, so to speak, I for one will feel that the > whole series has been for naught. JKR has made it clear that she's a bit troubled about smaller children reading these (having them read to them), because some of the imagery is frightening. But I think that JKR will be true to her vision, no matter how we choose to classify it. That lots of her readers are children is known to her and concerns her a bit, but she's not changing her vision to suit her readership (and more power to her!). If Harry is left standing at the end of the series, and there is no moral victory, then yes, the series might feel for naught. But if he is lying dead and there is a clear moral victory and message, I will mourn the character and rejoice in the books. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 24 23:52:42 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:52:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Did Sirius Play the Joke on Snape? References: <9m62bo+6no7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B86E8CA.221095E7@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24865 cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: > Amanda, I think your explanation is the only thing that makes sense. Wow, got another one fooled. > But I'm still troubled by this. I think it would work better if > Sirius had done something careless (rather than deliberate) that > tipped Snape about Lupin and set up the situation where Snape follows > Lupin into the Shrieking Shack. That would explain better why Lupin > would forgive Lupin. And most importantly, it wouldn't give me such > a powerful reason to dislike Sirius when I desperately want to like > everything about him. Then the blame for the whole incident would be > more on Snape (where it should be) than on Sirius (where most of it is > now). Sounds like you've more than one foot in the Sirius camp already. No matter what Snape might have done, including publishing wizard pictures of Sirius in the shower and running his underwear up the flagpole, *nothing* excuses a joke that has an excellent chance of ending in death. So where do you get your "where it should be" feeling? "Snape brought it on himself" is as undefendable a statement as "hey, well, Sirius was only sixteen." Nobody's saying Snape wasn't a poisonous little turd. But the extremity of Sirius' "joke" take it out of the realm of payback and into the area of assault. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klaatu at primenet.com Sat Aug 25 00:08:14 2001 From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:08:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP Trading Cards In-Reply-To: <9m6ed4+78l9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24866 Ah well... as Roseanne Roseannadanna would say : "Never Mind!" Thanks for the link. SML -----Original Message----- From: Steve Vander Ark [mailto:vderark at bccs.org] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:45 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP Trading Cards --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" wrote: > I've just uploaded a preliminary list of the details of the HP Trading > Cards. A complete list of all the cards with scans of the faces and all the text on the cards except "colour" text (quotes from the books) can be found here: http://www.pojo.com/harrypotter/ccg/BaseSetSpoiler.htm I have quite a few of the cards and I love playing the game. I play with my nine-year-old. He tends to beat me a lot, but he has more and nastier creatures in his deck than I do in mine. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon which has a page about the card game http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI PS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Aug 25 00:24:46 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 00:24:46 -0000 Subject: Kill Harry? In-Reply-To: <3B86E7B4.4CFBAF8@texas.net> Message-ID: <9m6r8e+1pcr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24867 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > If Harry is left standing at the end of the series, and there is no > moral victory, then yes, the series might feel for naught. But if he is lying dead and there is a clear moral victory and message, I will mourn the character and rejoice in the books.> If, for any reason, Harry is not alive at the end of book 7, I will need therapy to accept it. I understand why people can justify why he might die, but I hate it anyway. BTW, Jim - "Wormtail's car" - brilliant, brilliant! --jenny from ravenclaw ****************************************** From djtarb at aol.com Sat Aug 25 00:26:18 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:26:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky's presence during Crouch interrogation Message-ID: <27.1a70474d.28b84aaa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24868 In a message dated Fri, 24 Aug 2001 1:25:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Caius Marcius" writes: > > Good question - of course we don't know much about the effectiveness > of Veritaserum. Perhaps there are powerful antidotes that can protect > the subject from the serum's truth-telling effects. If that's the > case, Winky may have been included by Dumbledore as a means of > establishing Crouch's veracity. She probably wouldn;t have so reacted > to a fictitious account. > My read on this is that she had to hear it being confessed (and hear that Crouch, Sr., was dead) before she could break her own loyalty to the family and confirm Barty's story. Even though she'd been given clothes, she still kept the covenant. House elves have their own peculiar honor...Dobby's self-punishment for breaking faith with the Malfoys (even though he didn't do so at all effectively!) is another case in point. Diane in PA From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Aug 25 00:42:49 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 00:42:49 -0000 Subject: Descriptions; and what about the other four senses? In-Reply-To: <9m6ccs+v2fs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6sa9+gcfs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24869 Frantyk:"Does this make sense?" Sure does. Outstanding post, BTW. May you make many more. I think authors can sometimes explain too much. You see this in fics, where we put in loads and loads of "backfill" to the point the story is choked up by all the weeds. I like discovering things the way you described. Maybe you could say that Rowling doesn't "describe" as much as she "reveals." "Stern utilitariansim." I'd said before that Rowlings's words "weren't art by themselves," but "straightforward and simple." You put it better. It all adds up to storytelling, some of the best storytelling in a long time. From vderark at bccs.org Sat Aug 25 01:21:56 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:21:56 -0000 Subject: Descriptions; and what about the other four senses? In-Reply-To: <9m6ccs+v2fs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m6ujk+pkj1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24870 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote: > Second-to-last point: the five senses, used as a tool in description. > Rowling's world is unusually muffled in all except visual terms. For > example, references to smell or odour are dead rare. What does > Hagrid's hut smell like? What do pupils smell in the potions > classroom? in Professor Sprout's greenhouses? Or, why doesn't Harry > hear the sea or feel the sunlight or the stone under him when he > wakes up the morning of his birthday in the Hut-on-the-Rock? In CoS, > Harry's Polyjuice Potion tastes like "overcooked cabbage?" Oh, I dunno... "The inside [of the hut on the rock] was horrible; it smelled strongly of seaweed..." (SS3) "Then they visted the Apothecary, which was fascinating enough to make up for its horrible smell, a mixture of bad eggs and rotted cabbages..." (SS5) "[Filche's office] was dingy and windowless, lit by a single oil lamp dangling from the low ceiling. A faint smell of fried fish lingered about the place." (CS8) "Harry caught a whiff of damp earth and fertilizer mingling with the heavy perfume of some giant, umbrella-sized flowers dangling from the ceiling [of Greenhouse Three]." (CS6) "The coach smelled faintly of mold and straw..." (PA5) There are more examples. I think she includes descriptions of smells when they're particularly striking. Not as much as we'd like, perhaps, but she does include some. Wonderful post, by the way. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From joym999 at aol.com Sat Aug 25 01:38:24 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:38:24 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #12 Results Message-ID: <9m6vig+mi5b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24871 Well, as usual when I post one of these creative-type contests, I am disappointed with the quantity of responses, but impressed by the quality of responses. Anyway, here are the results of the HP4GU Contest #12, in which you were asked to speculate on what any HP character, or HP4GU listmember, or JKR would see in the Mirror of Erised: ********************************************************************** WHAT THEY SEE IN THE MIRROR OF ERISED: Hermione: A quick-time-turner that manages one century by one turn so that she can visit the Great Library of Alexandria before it was destroyed by fire. WHY: IMO, her desire is knowledge and not power, therefore becoming MoM won't be too attractive to her. Neville: The celebration of his 16th birthday, sitting round a huge table there are his parents who have fully recovered, his grandmother and the rest of the Longbottom clan. WHY: Explanation not necessary in this case, I think. Gred & Forge: Themselves at age 21, celebrating their first million of Galleons they've made by ?Weasley & Weasley Int. Inc.- Wicked Wizard Wheezes". WHY: They hate being poor just as much as Ron, but are willing and able to do something about it. A career at the MoM is out of question and in general they don't seem the types who could work their way up through any hierarchy whatsoever- they're very anarchic characters. So, the only way of making money will be starting their own activity. I don't think they go for the money per se, they want to have a great life full of fun and without problems. Severus Snape: Himself at his sixth year at Hogwarts, together with his friends Black, Potter, Lupin and Pettigrew, throwing a private Marauder's party in the dungeons, because they successfully did their first Animagi- transformation: Severus' Animagus form is an eagle, his nickname is Sharpeye. WHY: I believe that Snape's motivation for his major decisions has always been loneliness, frustration and the feeling of being inferior. He wouldn't have chosen the company of his future DE fellow Slytherins, had anybody else offered him friendship. He spied on the Marauders because he envied their friendship and the strength of their group. OTOH, he knows that now it might be late for changing his ways, so he desires nothing more than being young again and making the right choices. Lucius Malfoy: Himself coming down the stairs of Voldemort's mausoleum, beside him his "crown prince" Draco, at the bottom of the stairs an interminable line of kneeling Death Eaters, each of them swearing eternal loyalty to him and kissing his hand as he passes by, mumbling "I have carried out your orders, Master: No more Mudbloods and Half- bloods in my territory." WHY: Lucius wants power and he desires to be the absolute no. 1. He detests wizards without "pedigree", but even among pure- bloods, his own family is the one most worthy of leadership. Of course he wishes his son to continue the tradition. Susanna ********************************************************************** It's an interesting contrast between Erised and boggarts. Just as the mirror shows you want you most truly want, the boggart shows you what you most fear. The difference is that thing you want is just a picture in a mirror, while the boggart is really there in front of you. So what would happen if a boggart looked in the Erised mirror? Maybe it would see crowds of people fleeing in panic from it. But since all those people would have their unique fears, that might be too destabilizing for the boggart (because it wouldn't be sure what it looked like). Perhaps it might see itself as something so totally, completely and all-encompassingly terrifying that it would scare every human in the world. But that might be an image so powerful that it could even scare the boggart. There would definitely be a problem if two boggarts faced the mirror at the same time. Each would want to be scarier than the other. They might wind up making one another explode! - CMC ********************************************************************** I actually found a "long lost page" from the Philosophers Stone...it's a scene with Dumbledore after Harry has left the classroom. I'm not sure why J. K. Rowling didn't keep it in the book, but, what can you do? Here it is.... .....The door closed behind Harry and Dumbledore heaved a great sigh. He hated lying to the boy, let alone to anyone. Besides, what he saw in The Mirror of Erised was his own business, was it not? He sighed again. It would be lovely to share his sights with someone else, though. He looked into the mirror now. He smiled at what he saw. He recognized the place, a small house filled with cats. Warm light flowed through the windows. The sun was a bright warm colour, like golden wheat. Dumbledore smiled. There was a woman sitting on her sofa, looking lovingly at him. She waved, and he waved back, though he knew he could not see her. "Arabella Figg," he whispered. "to have you again would be divine." Blinking away tears, he waved to Arabella once more, and went out of the room....... ?Jamieson ********************************************************************** If JKR looked in the Mirror or Erised, she would most definitely see an interview where she wasn't asked "Where did you get the idea for Harry Potter?" ~Joy~ ********************************************************************** I think Filch would see himself having free reign over the students at Hogwarts. No one would be allowed out of their Common Rooms while not in class or eating in the Dining Hall. If a student so much as sneezed wrong, Filch would be allowed to use those chains on the wall in his office, and Dumbledore help them if they even thought of playing a joke on someone, especially him. I also believe Filch would see himself as being a normal wizard and not a Squib, and being allowed to use some choice curses as punishments too. ***Dixie Malfoy*** ********************************************************************** What does JKR see in the Mirror of Erised? Clearly - at this point - HP#5, copyedited, proofread, and hot off the presses. ? Robyn From joym999 at aol.com Sat Aug 25 01:48:07 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:48:07 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #13 -- L.O.O.N members take note! Message-ID: <9m704n+srg2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24872 If you are on webview, you have undoubtedly seen the ads for the Literary Guild, one of those book clubs which offers you a introductory bunch of books for less than a dollar each (plus undisclosed shipping and handling fees which in my experience turn out to be exorbitant) and then sends you a crummy, overpriced bestseller each month for years. They are offering all four HP books as part of their introductory promotion, and their website has an impressively bad description of each. Apparently, the Literary Guild is not profitable enough to pay real editors or proofreaders, so the CEO's illiterate nephew is writing their promotional materials. As a result, their descriptions of each book are a nitpicker's paradise. (Although they are not quite as poorly written as the HP character descriptions on the Warner Brothers website, which I can't even bring myself to finish reading.) Hence, this week's contest, which was suggested by alert nitpicker Julia (jstein103 at aol.com). How many mistakes can you find in the Literary Guild's book descriptions? Any kind of error is fair game ? spelling, punctuation, grammar, writing style, or factual. Unless the error is painfully obvious, please explain why you think it is wrong. All contestants finding more than 25 acceptable errors receive automatic L.O.O.N. membership (except for David Frankis). Email your response (or any questions) to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com, and then email it again if you don't receive an acknowledgment that I've received it. Here are the Literary Guild's descriptions of the four books: HARRY POTTER AND THE GOBLET OF FIRE Headline: Harry Potter is back! The wildly popular phenomenon continues The excitement and anticipation for the next Harry Potter adventure is growing in leaps and bounds. What wild and wonderful escapades await the little wizard? The fourth in the phenomenally popular Harry Potter series begins with the young wizard turning 14, but rumor has it that one of his friends may not make it through to see his birthday celebration. You'll have to read to find out the juicy details! HARRY POTTER AND THE PRISONER OF AZKABAN Harry Potter returns with his friends for their third year at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. And boy, are their hands full! As with all third years of study, there is much more work to do and the pressure is on. As if that wasn't bad enough, Harry finds out that an evil wizard has escaped from Azkaban prison and is after him! Combine that with having to live with his horrid aunt, uncle and annoying cousin Dudly and it's enough to make the head on Harry's flying broom spin. Can Harry outsmart the evil wizard and save his friend's beloved pet from a death sentence? HARRY POTTER AND THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS There has never been, in the history of U.S. publishing, a children's book phenomena like J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Her debut novel has already spent six months on The New York Times bestseller list! With new torments and horrors and a little magic "floor" powder, Harry and his chums return once again, casting a spell ovr children and adults alike. Harry's about to start his second year at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft ad Wizardry. But from day one, it seems he's going to have his hands full. There's a stuck-up new professor, Gilderoy Lockheart; a more determined Draco Malfoy; a spirit named Morning Myrtle who haunts the girls' bathroom, and the unwanted attentions of Ron Weasley's younger sister, Giny. But that's nothing--the real problem arises when Hogwart students begin turning into stone! Who could be so evil? May it's Hagrid the Gamekeeper? Or maybe even Harry himself? J.K. Rowling has become as famous for her monsters and wizards as she has for the way her first novel, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, was conceived. Scribbling on scraps of paper, Towling wrote most of the manuscript sitting in a cafe while her infant daughter napped beside her! HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE Remember that magical feeling you got the first time you read Roald Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? I never expected to feel that way about a book again--until I 'met' 11-year-old orphan, Harry Potter. Originally, I brought the book home for my finicky 10-year- old nephew, David. But it wasn't long before I found myself sneaking off to read it myself. J.K. Rowling swept me away to a mystical world of powerful wizards, deadly plants, potent potions, gentle giants and beautiful unicorns. Already a huge hit overseas, Harry is poised to take America by storm. Here's your chance to say that you and your family read Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone before it became a classic. Harry's is an adventure that is not to be missed! From litalex at yahoo.com Sat Aug 25 01:56:33 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius In-Reply-To: <9m5l0k+legd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010825015633.53450.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24873 Hello, --- blpurdom at yahoo.com wrote: > It might be more likely for him to try to take > Wormtail's position as > number two. Then, with Wormtail out of the "inner > circle" as it > were, he (Peter) might finally do the right thing > and pay his debt to > Harry by going to him with the secret of how to > defeat Voldemort... Wormtail most assuredly isn't number two in Voldemort's eyes. No evil overlord with any intelligence would pick such a sniveling, no-brained piece of trash as number two. Well, at least I wouldn't, maybe Voldemort has been brain damaged enough to. But if you ask me, I think Lucius is already number two. It's obvious that Lucius got brains and I think Voldemort would pay more attention to Lucius' advice than he would ever pay Wormtail's. That's of course assuming Wormtail is intelligent/brave enough to give advice, which I doubt (and haven't seen). little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From nausicaa at atlantic.net Sat Aug 25 02:05:35 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:05:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes (silly question) References: <9ljkbi+q4r8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8707EF.209CCF77@atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24874 Stephanie Roark Keener wrote: > > Okay, so I'm rolling the cat hair off my husband's academic robes a > few minutes ago (hopefully, I'll get a photo of him in his robes at > opening convocation, he's got crazy black hair and round glasses, > people STARE, I'll post it here, it's too funny) and I think, "Now > are these the kind of robes wizards wear?" Are they long and full to > the ground? Do they wear other clothes under them? Are they open or > closed in the front? I remember someone at the Quiddich WC wearing a > nightgown b/c he likes to be, er, "free" -- but I also remember Lupin > sticking his wand in his belt (NO JOKES about my remembering anything > having to do with Lupin's belt area), which suggests pants. What do > they look like in the movie -- I just haven't checked. > Stephanie My vision of the belted robe is something akin to a monk's robe -- not necessarily the same, but with a belt more like a rope/cord than the flat buckle thingies we have now. A baggy monk robe is about what I pictured when reading these books for everyone else, now that I think about it. Or maybe something like the witches robes in Halloween costume guides (not Elvira-like ones...the standard no-skin-showing ones). As for clothing underneath, I would imagine that it's a personal preference. Much like most men won't wear kilts, perhaps most modern wizards prefer at least some shorts or pants (or at least some underwear). Tshirts may or may not be worn, depending on the cut of the robe I suppose. And the scratchiness of the fabric...do they ever say what the texture of them are (I, for one, would wear an undergarment of some sort if the robes were scratchy wool, for example)? Of course, another idea is that they're more like old-school long tunics, the ones that leggings were often worn with. This just doesn't seem right though, since purchasing matching leggings was never mentioned. -- Jenny "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Aug 25 02:26:42 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 02:26:42 -0000 Subject: Seating the details in PofA Message-ID: <9m72d2+rn22@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24875 Two more questions about PofA: First, when Harry has disarmed Sirius, he wants to kill him, but his nerve fails him. But what spell has Harry ever learned by that point that would equip him to kill someone? I believe his skill set is limited to Expelliarmus and minor transfiguration. Second, when Lupin is figuring out how to escort Pettigrew out of the Shrieking Shack to the castle, he does that odd 3-person handcuff thing. Why doesn't he stun Pettigrew and then use Mobiliuscorpus? Does Mobiliuscorpus require that the person being transported be unconscious? Cindy -- declaring her major in Lupin and a minor in Sirius From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Aug 25 02:30:57 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 02:30:57 -0000 Subject: Seating the details in PofA In-Reply-To: <9m72d2+rn22@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m72l1+b3rc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24876 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: OOOPS! That should be "Sweating" the details in PofA. Two more questions about PofA: > > First, when Harry has disarmed Sirius, he wants to kill him, but his > nerve fails him. But what spell has Harry ever learned by that point > that would equip him to kill someone? I believe his skill set is > limited to Expelliarmus and minor transfiguration. > > Second, when Lupin is figuring out how to escort Pettigrew out of the > Shrieking Shack to the castle, he does that odd 3-person handcuff > thing. Why doesn't he stun Pettigrew and then use Mobiliuscorpus? > Does Mobiliuscorpus require that the person being transported be > unconscious? > > Cindy -- declaring her major in Lupin and a minor in Sirius From usergoogol at yahoo.com Sat Aug 25 03:28:48 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 03:28:48 -0000 Subject: Lucius... (is like Gollum) In-Reply-To: <20010608190433.42975.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9m761g+fprn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24877 (Synopsis of mother topic: Lucius will likely try to sieze power from Voldie. If so, hmm... imagine what this will do to Draco.) I am. At any rate, perhaps Harry shant have the power to kill Voldemort, for whatver reason (care for human life, if you can call him human...). As a result, Lucius will. (A la Gollum's accidental destruction of the One Ring in Lord of the Rings.) Then, somehow, Lucius' climb for power will actually save the world. I like the theory. From katzefan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 25 04:10:23 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 04:10:23 -0000 Subject: New thought, old topic In-Reply-To: <9m5jv5+3u3c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m78ff+jgcc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24878 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > Amanda - I think you've got something! Plus, if Snape DID >know who MPW&P were, I'd think that he would have said >something years before. Expecially since Sirius was public >enemy #1 - if Snape had any idea (1) that a "dangerous killer" >had the inside & out of Hogwarts mapped out and that (2) a >"dangerous killer" may be an animagus, Snape would have told >the Wizarding world long ago. If for no other reason than to get >back at his old nemesis. Or am I missing something? I think both magpie and Amanda are onto something - why on earth would Snape keep quiet about Sirius's involvement in the creation of the Maurauder's Map *especially* once Sirius was known to have escaped from Azkaban, and particularly when he was known to be headed for Hogwarts? It would indicate he knew a lot of hidden ways in and out of the castle, among other things. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 25 04:54:38 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:54:38 -0700 Subject: Expelling Wizardry Students - Death is Not Defeat - Major in Lupin, Minor in Sirius Message-ID: <3B872F8E.90DEB31@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24879 Barb wrote: > It seems to me that it would be MORE dangerous > to have people with magic in them receiving no > training or inadequate training in magic. (snip) > While discipline is necessary at any school, IMO > no one should ever be expelled from Hogwarts > because what someone could do with less magical > education is potentially far riskier than what > they might do with more. Power without knowledge > or wisdom is a dangerous thing. I gather that people who were expelled from Hogwarts aren't allowed to have wands (e.g. Hagrid). Maybe they never expel a first-year student, and they figure by the end of first year, they'll have the student so brainwashed that heesh won't be able to do any magic without a wand. And maybe young Remus would have studied with a private tutor if he hadn't been allowed to go to Hogwarts. (Brief non-canon theory: I believe that Remus's parents had a job that involved living abroad, probably something to do with looking after British wizarding tourists. That could be working for the British MoM consulates, altho' I think they're working for some kind of travel or tour agency. Anyway, that job had them living in Rome when Remus was born, which is why they chose that name, and then transferred them to Greece, where Remus was bitten at age 4. But there are a LOT of werewolves in the Balkans and the people of the isolated old-fashioned Greek wizarding village where the Lupins bought or built a small house (where his father was a Sunday painter and his mother learned to spin and weave and make cheese, altho' they bought the wool and sheep's milk from their neighbors instead of raising their own sheep) had knowledgeable sympathy for this family tragedy and taught the Lupins how to tie up, chain, and lock up their werewolf before nightfall of full moon night, while regaling them with anecdotes of Apostolos's uncle and Aphrodite's father-in-law's grandfather, who also had been bitten, and kept confined by their families, but each at some time escaped and had to be killed in self-defense. Not cheerful, but not the kind of bigotry Remus experiences in Britain. *I* think there are only zero to four werewolves in Britain in any generation, so people there are ignorant enough about werewolves to believe Tom Riddle's lie about werewolf cubs.) Bente wrote: > Kids reading these books want and expect > Harry to triumph over evil/Voldemort, not > to die fighting him, even if Voldemort dies, > too. Where's the triumph in that? (snip) > If Harry isn't left standing at the end, > so to speak, I for one will feel that the > whole series has been for naught. I'm not a Christian but I have read J.R.R.Tolkien's essay ON FAIRY STORIES, in which in he mentions that (what he considers) the greatest of all stories (that of Christ) is not only true (in his opinion) but has a happy ending. He would not agree that the hero dying (heroically) to defeat evil and save all people is 'for naught'. I don't expect JKR to kill Harry in Book 7, but I think it would be a good literature thing to do. I do expect her to kill Remus quite soon, and then I will cry and be hysterical. Cindy wrote: > First, when Harry has disarmed Sirius, he wants > to kill him, but his nerve fails him. But what > spell has Harry ever learned by that point that > would equip him to kill someone? I believe his > skill set is limited to Expelliarmus and minor > transfiguration. Here is a reprint of my post #23967 1) Levitate something heavy and drop it on the victim from a height. (Similar to Ron levitating the troll's club and accidentally bashing the troll on the head with it). 2) Conjure up ropes (as we have seen various adult wizards to, to tie someone up), conjure them tied around the victim's neck, pull tight. 3) Conjure up a nice soft fluffy pillow and conjure it pressed over the victim's face. 4) Conjure up an ax and levitate it to whack the victim in the head. 5) Transfigure part of the wall of his aorta (that is the big artery that leaves the heart and soon splits into separate arteries toward the upper and lower body) into Kleenex (tm). Between the wetness of the blood it carries and the pressure of the blood it carries, the Kneelex will soon dissolve or tear, and the victim will die of internal hemorrhage. (My favorite: I wrote a fic in which someone commits suicide this way, except it was sand rather than klnnex) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C ool L ewd A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From katzefan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 25 05:14:06 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 05:14:06 -0000 Subject: Lucius vs. Big V., Muggles, location of Hogwarts, etc. Message-ID: <9m7c6u+gdh9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24880 In reply to degroote: I'm 45, no kids, doesn't matter `cause I love the books anyway & would read the damn things to my cats if they'd hold still long enough (the cats, not the books....). --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: >Then, somehow, Lucius' climb for power will actually save the world. At least until Lucius decides to take up where Voldemort left off ... which should take about 30 seconds. (Someone waaaay back said they disliked the diminutive 'Voldie' and preferred 'Big V' -- couldn't figure out why that sounded odd to me until I remembered: it used to be the name of a drugstore chain in Canada. Hmmm, too bad I never took a close look at some of the stuff on the shelves behind the counter ....) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Heidi:"I am sure there has to be a way to bring Muggles into > Hogwarts - squibs can get in, so why shouldn't Muggles be able to?" > There's been guests at Hogwarts, including parents of the Champions in GoF, and nothing said they were all magical. Also, >IIRC, Hermione's parents made it to Platform 9 3/4, and they >certainly have been to Diagon Alley. Probably Muggles just >can't get in to magical places on their own. Good point. I wonder if Hermione's parents have ever gotten onto Platform 9 3/4 ir Diagon Alley *without* her. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > I'd love to know where an American school of W&W would be - >if the USA had one at all - maybe it's in Canada? Or Mexico? >After all, Hogwarts may be in Scotland, not England. Its fun to >speculate, though! > > - Denise (wishing she had received a letter written in dark >green ink when she was 11) I've always thought of Hogwarts as in the north of Scotland, partly because JKR lives in Scotland, and partly because, in CoS, when Harry and Ron are flying the car to the school, it is mentioned that `several uneventful hours later' they are still in the air and still not at Hogwarts -- and they set out from London, so it sounds to me as though they are travelling a really long distance. As for the American school of W&W, I would hope it at least has a branch campus near Salem, Mass.! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Good one! the idea of a double-cross gone wrong makes >sense, since I don't see Lucius as being natural to >subservience.... Which makes me think, if he *does* take over Wormtail's place, he won't be planning to stay there long.... Wouldn't you think that would occur to Voldemort? Further to the topic, little Alex points out that no evil wizard with half a brain would pick something as spineless as Wormtail to be second in command. True, but if I were as shattered and physically weak as Voldemort was after his Killing Curse rebounded onto him, I would *much* prefer a Wormtail as my "nurse" to Lucius Malfoy, who is undeniably evil and on the lookout for No. 1 first and foremost. If he *had* gotten near Voldemort before V. was `returned,' I wouldn't have bet the rent money on Voldemort ever being seen again. I think the temptation to polish him off and take his place would've been too much for Lucius. ****************************** But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a whole new light. "Hermione, Neville's right - you *are* a girl..." "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly. From vderark at bccs.org Sat Aug 25 06:49:17 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 06:49:17 -0000 Subject: location of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9m7c6u+gdh9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m7hpd+b43h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24881 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > > I've always thought of Hogwarts as in the north of Scotland, > partly because JKR lives in Scotland, and partly because, in > CoS, when Harry and Ron are flying the car to the school, it is > mentioned that `several uneventful hours later' they are > still in the air and still not at Hogwarts -- and they set out from > London, so it sounds to me as though they are travelling a really > long distance. You're right on the money with that deduction. If you'd like to read more about the location of Hogwarts, check out the Geography FAQ: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/geography.html There are some really interesting speculations and deductions on that page. It also talks about the locations of Durmstrang and other places in the books. Those FAQs are absolutely amazing. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com~svderark/lexicon From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Aug 25 11:52:57 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 11:52:57 -0000 Subject: New thought, old topic In-Reply-To: <9m78ff+jgcc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m83ip+s2tt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24882 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > > > Amanda - I think you've got something! Plus, if Snape DID > >know who MPW&P were, I'd think that he would have said > >something years before. Expecially since Sirius was public > >enemy #1 - if Snape had any idea (1) that a "dangerous killer" > >had the inside & out of Hogwarts mapped out and that (2) a > >"dangerous killer" may be an animagus, Snape would have told > >the Wizarding world long ago. If for no other reason than to get > >back at his old nemesis. Or am I missing something? > > I think both magpie and Amanda are onto something - why on > earth would Snape keep quiet about Sirius's involvement in the > creation of the Maurauder's Map *especially* once Sirius was > known to have escaped from Azkaban, and particularly when he > was known to be headed for Hogwarts? It would indicate he > knew a lot of hidden ways in and out of the castle, among other > things. Remember, however, that Snape does not know that the Marauder's Map is a map. He thinks it is a piece of parchment that insults people, at least, until just before the Shrieking Shack scene. So Snape has no idea that Sirius knows the secret passages into the castle from his involvement in writing the map. That explains why Snape doesn't go to Dumbledore about the parchment/map. From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 25 12:56:48 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:56:48 -0000 Subject: Snape's Favorite Things [FILK] In-Reply-To: <9m6ntc+tf0f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m87ag+p7re@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24883 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > Snape's Favorite Things > A Filk by Pippin to the tune of 'My Favorite Things' > from The Sound of Music > Dedicated to the Snapefans group I am not a member of the Snapefans group, but this Filk was superb! Pippin, it has to rank as one of my favourites so far. Catherine From vderark at bccs.org Sat Aug 25 13:31:51 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:31:51 -0000 Subject: another play on words that slipped by me Message-ID: <9m89c7+8k96@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24884 I was reading through a dictionary of British slang the other day and noticed that the term "fairy lights" means what we Yanks call "christmas lights." That means, if I understand correctly, the strings of colored lights we put on our houses and trees during the holiday season. So now, not only do I understand the password that the Fat Lady used to get into Gryffindor, but I also understand that play on words when Flitwick puts up lights in his room and they turn out to be real live fairies. REAL fairy lights! Makes me wonder how much else I'm missing because I was born on the left side of the Atlantic. And how much gets lost in translation for other countries! Now I have to go add this to the Strictly British page of the Lexicon! Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Aug 25 14:06:04 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:06:04 -0000 Subject: Get Creepy (filk) Message-ID: <9m8bcc+s02u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24885 Get Creepy (from PoA, Chap. 19) (To the tune of Harold Arlen's Get Happy) Dedicated to Jenny of Ravenclaw NOTE: This was an early song by Arlen, best known for his score for The Wizard of Oz. It was popularized by Judy Garland, who sang it in the 1950 film Summer Stock. I can't find more than a few snippets of Garland's rendition on the Web, but here's another performance (on RealAudio) of the song on a site with the improbable title "Music With An Ayn Rand Connection." (Did Rand *ever* get happy?) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1905/selections.html THE SCENE: The Shrieking Shack. His true identity unveiled, PETTIGREW pleads for his life as he tries to rationalize away his guilt PETTIGREW Forgive my features if I seem creepy I'm better off as Scabbers instead Hey, Ron Weasley, if you're feeling sleepy Take a 30-something rat to bed The moon was shinin' when I got creepy The Dark Lord waited to seize command Never wanted to be Secret-Keepy Voldy's vigor I could not withstand Sold the Potters down the river Couldn't stop it if I tried They're so all-powerful On the other side Forget my pride now and just start pleadin' Don't let them take my poor life away Please, Harry Potter, mercy I'm needin' Don't give Black and Lupin your OK Forgive my crimes now, let me get creepy Hear how loudly I can caterwaul As I start to get all waily and weepy I'll be setting all your skin to crawl (To Ron) For twelve years as your house pet I know I did awfully well Can't we agree we won't Ask, and will not tell? HARRY, BLACK & LUPIN If you're done whinin', c'mon then, Petey You can face the music like a man We'll comply now with your entreaty Get ready to tour Azkaban! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Aug 25 14:24:21 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:24:21 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #12 Results In-Reply-To: <9m6vig+mi5b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m8cel+s0f4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24886 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > ********************************************************************** > > What does JKR see in the Mirror of Erised? Clearly - at this point - > HP#5, copyedited, proofread, and hot off the presses. ? Robyn That's what I see at this point too! (forget the Powerball ticket) - CMC From dasienko at email.com Sat Aug 25 14:36:10 2001 From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:36:10 -0000 Subject: Animal Transfiguration Vs. Animagi In-Reply-To: <9m4d7u+qg89@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m8d4q+udja@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24887 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kdemcak at h... wrote: > Here's something I was just mulling over... we've seen several > instances in the books of non-Animagi wizards turning themselves > into animals (Krum as shark in GoF, for instance). Plus we know > that it's possible to turn another person into an animal (say, > Malfoy as the ferret in GoF as well). Obviously there's a big > distinction between an Animagus and the latter, but what makes an > Animagus so special compared to the former? In QTA, It states that if you transfigure into a bird , then you get the mindset of a bird. So, when you transfigure then you actualy become that animal. So then, IMO, when you become an animagus you "transform" yourself into a hybrid man/animal you have the outward characteristicsof the animal, yet you maintain your "Humanity" ( wizardarity?). From editor at texas.net Sat Aug 25 15:05:05 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 10:05:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] another play on words that slipped by me References: <9m89c7+8k96@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B87BEA0.98522621@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24888 Steve Vander Ark wrote: > Makes me wonder how much else I'm missing because I was born on the > left side of the Atlantic. And how much gets lost in translation for > other countries! I know that "Spellotape" is lost on many Americans, because we don't say "cellotape," we tend to say Scotch tape or something. I had never heard the usage "cellotape" until I was in college, and someone was relating a joke a British girl had told them (rather off-color, involving a chicken, and the punch line was "wrap her in cellotape" and nobody laughed, because none of us knew what that was). And related, nobody I knew who read the Hitchhiker's Guide got the joke about Ford Prefect--we just thought it was funny that he thought such an odd name would be innocuous. I only found out a few years ago that the Prefect had been a car marketed by Ford in the UK. They don't have them over here. The fairy lights in-joke is marvelous. You're right, I wonder what else we poor benighted Americans are missing. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JamiDeise at aol.com Sat Aug 25 16:23:48 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:23:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] another play on words that slipped by me Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24889 In a message dated 8/25/2001 11:05:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, editor at texas.net writes: << And related, nobody I knew who read the Hitchhiker's Guide got the joke about Ford Prefect--we just thought it was funny that he thought such an odd name would be innocuous. I only found out a few years ago that the Prefect had been a car marketed by Ford in the UK. They don't have them over here. >> What about the Ford Anglia? Is this also an inside joke that I've missed? Jami ignorant American From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Sat Aug 25 16:38:42 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:38:42 -0000 Subject: another play on words that slipped by me In-Reply-To: <9m89c7+8k96@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m8kai+uko3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24890 I have to say that reading all the HP books and coming from the right hand side of the Atlantic, there are alot of plays on words that you don't notice until the third or so reading, but I do find it interesting that such an, in my opinion, obvious pun escapes the American audience. It is kind of sad that the richness of the text gets somewhat diluted in the translation (maybe there should be footnotes included in the American edition?) -- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > I was reading through a dictionary of British slang the other day and > noticed that the term "fairy lights" means what we Yanks > call "christmas lights." That means, if I understand correctly, the > strings of colored lights we put on our houses and trees during the > holiday season. So now, not only do I understand the password that > the Fat Lady used to get into Gryffindor, but I also understand that > play on words when Flitwick puts up lights in his room and they turn > out to be real live fairies. REAL fairy lights! > > Makes me wonder how much else I'm missing because I was born on the > left side of the Atlantic. And how much gets lost in translation for > other countries! > > Now I have to go add this to the Strictly British page of the Lexicon! > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Aug 25 17:19:49 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:19:49 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9ictq9+ofag@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m8mnl+qmrc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24891 ---Why does everyone assume that > Hermione would necessarily mention it if she saw Dumbledore's name on > the list of registered animagi? There are lots of reasons why > Hermione might not have mentioned it: > > 1. Both times she checked the list there was an awful lot of stuff > going on, so maybe she just didn't see fit to add, ''Oh and by the > way did you know Dumbledore is an animagus?'' > > 2. Or, maybe everyone at Hogwarts already knows that he is an > animagus, so why state the obvious? > > 3. Or, maybe it is considered impolite in wizarding society to > mention someone's animagi status unless they are very open about it > themselves. > > 4. Maybe JKR just doesn't want us to know this fact just yet, and in > a future book when Hermione is once again talking about the list of > registered animagi she will read it out loud -- '' Yes, here is the > list of all the animagi this century. Here is M. McGonagall, of > course, a cat, and A. Dumbledore, of course, a bumblebee (allright, > maybe a phoenix), and Lucius Malfoy, a weasel, and Gorgonzola Goyle, > a cockroach......'' > > --Joywitch Add another reason Dumbledore could be an Animagus without being one of the seven registered Animagi. Hermione says there have been seven this centurey. Isn't Dumbledore older than century? Or do I have Dumbledore's age wrong? Cindy "Dumpy sort of woman?" he growled finally. "Loads of children with red hair?" Harry frowned. He thought it was a bit rich of Uncle Vernon to call anyone "dumpy." From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Sat Aug 25 17:23:31 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:23:31 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore fading? In-Reply-To: <9m7hpd+b43h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m8muj+4ho1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24892 I couldnt help noticing (to my horror) that JKR kept stating that Dumbledore looked weary and very old, especially in the chapter about the pensieve (GoF) and the thought struck me... is she going to kill him off. I think that would be the worst move possible as, in my opinion, he is one character that make the stories amazing, his relationship with Harry (and my own favourite thoery of him actually being a blood relative of Harrys) I just dont think the books would be the same without him, apart fromt the fact that i think the trauma of his death might just be too much for me, making it nessecary for me to get some sort of therapy!!!!! I heard JKR mention in an interview that Harry might be getting a new pet at some stage and i thought that I'd like him to get a phoenix... and then I thought FAWKES!! Is he going to inherit Fawkes from Dumbledore?? (ahhh, its just too much for me to take!!!) Who would believe Harry's stories and be on hand for the ever raging battle with Voldermort!! I JUST DONT KNOW ... I'd be grateful for anyone elses opinion on the matter... From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Aug 25 18:12:52 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:12:52 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore fading? In-Reply-To: <9m8muj+4ho1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m8pr4+q28l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24893 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > I couldnt help noticing (to my horror) that JKR kept stating that > Dumbledore looked weary and very old, especially in the chapter about > the pensieve (GoF) and the thought struck me... is she going to kill > him off. He's one of my favorites too, but I'm afraid that like Merlin, Gandalf, Obi-wan and Yoda, he's simply too powerful to remain on the scene. He'll have to be removed from the action, at least for a while, so that Harry can come into his own. I shall miss Dumble too, but I am sure JKR will be introducing other fascinating people in the books to come. Introducing long-lost relatives is one of the staples of romantic fiction, but I don't think JKR is going that way...in fact, I think Harry's story is going to become more epic as the battle with Voldemort expands and plotlines like that will become less important. This would solve the "how can JKR deal with her maturing characters' sex lives without grossing out the parents of her younger audience?" question. Ron and Hermione can continue the romance sub-plots, conveniently off stage. Pippin From nausicaa at atlantic.net Sat Aug 25 18:39:12 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:39:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore fading? References: <9m8muj+4ho1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B87F0D0.1842E9B9@atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24894 scaryfairymary at hotmail.com wrote: > > I couldnt help noticing (to my horror) that JKR kept stating that > Dumbledore looked weary and very old, especially in the chapter about > the pensieve (GoF) and the thought struck me... is she going to kill > him off. I think that would be the worst move possible as, in my > opinion, he is one character that make the stories amazing, his > relationship with Harry (and my own favourite thoery of him actually > being a blood relative of Harrys) I just dont think the books would > be the same without him, apart fromt the fact that i think the trauma > of his death might just be too much for me, making it nessecary for > me to get some sort of therapy!!!!! I heard JKR mention in an > interview that Harry might be getting a new pet at some stage and i > thought that I'd like him to get a phoenix... and then I thought > FAWKES!! Is he going to inherit Fawkes from Dumbledore?? (ahhh, its > just too much for me to take!!!) Who would believe Harry's stories > and be on hand for the ever raging battle with Voldermort!! > I JUST DONT KNOW ... I'd be grateful for anyone elses opinion on the > matter... There could be several takes on this -- 1) We could *think* he's dead for a book or 2, and then he returns in the last one (heh...or he disappears right before the climactic ending of #7 & returns saying "oh what happened?" with a sly grin). 2) He could actually be dead. Remember his association with Fawkes. It could be that he's really a LOT older than he is, but keeps dying & returning to the scene (interesting thought -- maybe he *IS* the Merlin). 3) He could die to protect Harry somewhere, in the style of his mother. Thus giving Harry protection (whether we are sure of that or not...I'm sure JKR can make us wonder up until the very last moment). 4) This one I think would be very interesting, but destroys the Harry-dying-at-end theory (although not necessarily the can't-really-continue-the-series-now-can-I part). Remember, when Harry first went into Dumbledore's office, Fawkes went poof and was reborn from his own ashes. Symbolic of something perhaps? I've briefly wondered if that means that Dumbledore will either die or retire or something...and Harry will take his place. Not necessarily as Hogwarts' headmaster (but that *would* be interesting), but they have said that Harry could be a very impressive wizard (look at the patronius he made at such a young age, for example)...and we all know that Dumbledore is a rather awesome wizard. Also goes along with the Order of the Phoenix title -- perhaps all of the masters went like this (don't remember what was said about the previous headmaster, except that he wouldn't have been so nice)? Thoughts? Comments? The more I think about it, the more I like #4...or something very similar to that. -- Jenny "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Aug 25 21:02:49 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 25 Aug 2001 21:02:49 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <998773369.1518.7286.c8@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24895 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /UserGoogol's essays/History of Magic Uploaded by : usergoogol at yahoo.com Description : Part One of the "Magic Exists" series You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/UserGoogol%27s%20essays/History%20of%20Magic To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, usergoogol at yahoo.com From hannata at saunalahti.fi Sat Aug 25 21:32:01 2001 From: hannata at saunalahti.fi (hannata at saunalahti.fi) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:32:01 -0000 Subject: Swimming in January Message-ID: <9m95gh+d9hf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24896 Koinonia wrote: >Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to >mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal people >can't swim in water like that. OK, I'm from Finland and that is not normal, but I really do have to tell this "truth" about swimming in January. We actually do swim winters, we just make this hole in the ice and there we go.. I don't believe that the water is really freezing in Scotland in January, while our lakes are really frozen.. What becomes to the names Durmstrang, Igor Karkakoff, Viktor Krum and so on, they mind sound like german, but I think that they may come from a really large area.. but let's face it. Krum plays quiddich in Bulgarian team, which means, that the school has to be close to Bulgaria (like Hogwarts is school for Irish and British wizardstudents, might Durmstrang be shcool for several countries wizardstudent). Located on the Balkan Peninsula, Bulgaria shares borders with Romania on the north, the Black Sea on the east, Turkey and Greece on the south, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (also known as Serbia and Montenegro) and the FYRO Macedonia to the west. But I don't believe that Durmstrang is located in Bulgaria, but Romania seems better, while Romania is bordered on the north by Ukraine, on the east by Moldova, on the southeast by the Black Sea, on the south by Bulgaria, on the southwest by Serbia (part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia), and on the west by Hungary. Although these countries are closer equator, winters are very cold.. -> The Transylvanian Basin, the Carpathian Mountains, and the western lowlands have warm summers and cold winters with recorded temperature extremes ranging from -37? C (-35?F) to 38?C (100?F). The Walachian, Moldavian, and Dobrujan lowlands have hotter summers and occasionally experience periods of severe cold in winter. Recorded extremes in Bucharest and the lowlands are -24?C (-11?F) and 39?C (102?F). OK, I would go on and on.. I'll better push the button now.. From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 25 22:06:31 2001 From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 22:06:31 -0000 Subject: JKR and Philip Pullman Message-ID: <9m97h7+28hn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24897 With some of the recent discussions on this list regarding parallels between JKR and Philip Pullman, I wondered if anyone else had noticed that the heroine of many of PP's novels is a private detective by the name of Sally Lockheart. Is this link to the DADA professor we all love to hate just coincedence? Or is it a backhanded compliment to PP? From pbnesbit at msn.com Sat Aug 25 23:21:40 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:21:40 -0000 Subject: another play on words that slipped by me In-Reply-To: <9m8kai+uko3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m9bu4+1omf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24898 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > I have to say that reading all the HP books and coming from the right > hand side of the Atlantic, there are alot of plays on words that you > don't notice until the third or so reading, but I do find it > interesting that such an, in my opinion, obvious pun escapes the > American audience. It is kind of sad that the richness of the text > gets somewhat diluted in the translation (maybe there should be > footnotes included in the American edition?) > > I bought the UK versions after finding out that the versions printed in the US had been 'Americanised.' Still for the life of me can't figure out why Scholastic thought it needed translation. I mean, doesn't every 9-12 year old read all the British novels they can get their hands on? Peace & Plenty, Parker From vderark at bccs.org Sat Aug 25 23:53:48 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:53:48 -0000 Subject: another play on words that slipped by me In-Reply-To: <9m8kai+uko3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m9dqc+bk1a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24899 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > I have to say that reading all the HP books and coming from the right > hand side of the Atlantic, there are alot of plays on words that you > don't notice until the third or so reading, but I do find it > interesting that such an, in my opinion, obvious pun escapes the > American audience. But how could we know? I've never heard the term "fairy lights" in my life, and I've been a fan of British comedy for almost thirty years. I've watched countless television shows, read scripts, etc. and that term has never come up. Same with Night Bus. This is NOT an obvious pun to anyone outside the UK. It is kind of sad that the richness of the text > gets somewhat diluted in the translation (maybe there should be > footnotes included in the American edition?) Or maybe there should be an annotated version. Hmmm... Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 26 00:49:40 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 00:49:40 -0000 Subject: interesting thought re: Mrs. Figg Message-ID: <9m9h34+o4ip@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24900 Someone emailed this little tidbit to me about Arabella Figg. I have to admit that I never made this connection. What do you all think of it? "Also, isn't it peculiar that the smell of her house is described as cabbage? And in the CS the finished Polyjuice potion smells like overcooked cabbage. Could Arabella really be someone else in disguise?" What an interesting observation! Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From usergoogol at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 00:53:59 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 00:53:59 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter, the ultimate edition In-Reply-To: <9m9dqc+bk1a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m9hb7+5o3b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24901 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > It is kind of sad that the richness of the text > > gets somewhat diluted in the translation (maybe there should be > > footnotes included in the American edition?) > > Or maybe there should be an annotated version. Hmmm... > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Ah yes... maybe after all the Harry Potter books come out they could make a collection of the seven books, with the original "British" English text, and footnotes, and a brand new Leather-bound cover, and fold out pictures of the original american, british, and "grown-up" british covers. From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Aug 26 01:29:41 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:29:41 -0000 Subject: Get Creepy (filk) In-Reply-To: <9m8bcc+s02u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m9je5+tc28@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24902 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > Get Creepy (from PoA, Chap. 19) > > (To the tune of Harold Arlen's Get Happy) > > Dedicated to Jenny of Ravenclaw> Dear Caius, Thank you very much for dedicating yet another filk to me. I feel warm and fuzzy down to my toes after reading and singing along a bit to the filk. I am pleased to say that I actually know the original song (though not very well). Caius, what can I say? I love you. Love, --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************************** From belinda at sawyertech.com Sun Aug 26 01:30:35 2001 From: belinda at sawyertech.com (belinda at sawyertech.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:30:35 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter, the ultimate edition In-Reply-To: <9m9hb7+5o3b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m9jfr+t2c1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24903 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > > > > Or maybe there should be an annotated version. Hmmm... > > > Ah yes... maybe after all the Harry Potter books come out they could make a collection of the seven books, with the original "British" English text, and footnotes, and a brand new Leather-bound cover, and fold out pictures of the original american, british, and "grown-up" british covers. I'm all for leather-bound volumes but what I really want is the whole saga on CD with searchable, cross-referenced text and annotations that pop up when I right-click my mouse. Could have found that cabbage thingy in a heartbeat. From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Sun Aug 26 01:43:40 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:43:40 -0000 Subject: Swimming in January In-Reply-To: <9m95gh+d9hf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m9k8c+pugv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24904 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hannata at s... wrote: > >Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to > >mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal people > >can't swim in water like that. > > OK, I'm from Finland and that is not normal, but I really do have to > tell this "truth" about swimming in January. We actually do swim > winters, we just make this hole in the ice and there we go.. I don't > believe that the water is really freezing in Scotland in January, > while our lakes are really frozen.. > > What becomes to the names Durmstrang, Igor Karkakoff, Viktor Krum and > so on, they mind sound like german, but I think that they may come > from a really large area.. but let's face it. Krum plays quiddich in > Bulgarian team, which means, that the school has to be close to > Bulgaria (like Hogwarts is school for Irish and British > wizardstudents, might Durmstrang be shcool for several countries > wizardstudent). I'm from Norway, and I have to agree about the whole swimming in winter thing. It's done, all over Scandinavia, and people don't seem to suffer in the least for it. Krum probably spends most of his time in a climate that's much colder than that of Scotland. My thinking has always been that Durmstrang is located somewhere on the northern coast, hence the ship the Durmstrang students arrived in. The Black Sea would work, I suppose, but it's more likely to be somewhere much colder. If it was inland, the ship wouldn't make much sense though, would it? According to the students' names, Durmstrang seems to be a school for wizards of Slavic distraction, anyway. Bente From degroote at altavista.com Sun Aug 26 01:44:17 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 25 Aug 2001 18:44:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes (silly question) Message-ID: <20010826014417.13696.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24905 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From blpurdom at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 02:08:57 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 02:08:57 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter, the ultimate edition In-Reply-To: <9m9hb7+5o3b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m9lnp+f03a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24906 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > Ah yes... maybe after all the Harry Potter books come out they could make a collection of the seven books, with the original "British" English text, and footnotes, and a brand new Leather-bound cover, and fold out pictures of the original american, british, and "grown-up" british covers. I don't care what the outsides look like, but I plan to buy the British editions and read them with a copy of a book by my side that I gave my mother-in-law about British English for Americans (something about two countries divided by a common language--I should go to quote.com and look up who said that). I was thinking about the annotation issue while reading "Good Omens" by Gaiman and Pratchett. Not only do they manage to convey some very useful information via the footnotes (such as explaining firelighters and British currency before decimalization), but the notes are usually highly amusing, too. One can see how JKR might use this style in future writing endeavors after she's done the Harry Potter books, especially if she writes something aimed at adults. There are amusing annotations throughout Fantastic Beasts and Quidditch Through the Ages, as well as the hand-drawn and -written embellishments in Fantastic Beasts. --Barb Get Psyched Out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 26 02:12:08 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:12:08 -0700 Subject: chat - faq - Dumbledore - searchable Message-ID: <3B885AF8.58AC93D0@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24907 CHAT PROBLEM: Suddenly Yahoo changed the name of the chat room of my group from grp*g.2176166:1 to *g.HPforGrownups:1 That would be cool except that when I try to log in to the new room on Cheetah, I get error message "***You cannot join room *g.HPforGrownups:1" That is a problem because the group members who enter via Yahoo are in the room that I cannot enter from Cheetah (I entered via Yahoo to confirm that). If Yahoo and Cheetah haven't fixed this by tomorrow, what will we do??? Steve Vander Ark wrote: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/geography.html > Those FAQs are absolutely amazing. Thus spurred by Steve, last night I went and looked at the FAQs and was suitably impressed. I propose that the following be added to Mysteries and maybe even to Vfaq: "In the SHrieking Shack in PoA, how did Harry plan to kill Sirius considering that he didn't know Avada Kedavra yet?" scaryfairymary (nice name!) wrote: >I couldnt help noticing (to my horror) that JKR kept > stating that Dumbledore looked weary and very old, > especially in the chapter about the pensieve (GoF) It has been wondered whether Dumbledore is really looking older, or is it just that Harry has started to notice, because of Harry's increasing maturity and therefore sensitivity to others? If Dumbledore really is looking older, is that merely from the stress of dealing with Voldemort's return, or is it age taking its toll? If age, is that merely the normal result of being age 150 (as JKR said in a chat) or is it that he no longer has any Elixir of Life since the Philosopher's Stone was destroyed in Book 1? Belinda wrote: > what I really want is the whole saga on CD with > searchable, cross-referenced text and annotations > that pop up when I right-click my mouse. Me too!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches Ravenclaw: "So many books, so little time" ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L egendary A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 02:47:55 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (Alfredo Ramirez) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry Potter, the ultimate edition Message-ID: <20010826024755.35686.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24908 (something about two countries divided by a common language--I should go to quote.com and look up who said that) "England and America are two countries separated by the same language." -George Bernard Shaw, "Reader's Digest", November 1942 On another note, the whole How was Harry going to kill Sirius? thing was brought up a short time ago in posts 23887, 23967 and 23981. Rita Winston gave a few ideas as to how Harry could go about killing Sirius. I remember the trio also learned a spell to move things (the pillow in the box) and how Neville kept on making Professor Flitwick fly around. Harry could do something similar but with more speed to smash Sirius head in. I dont know if its possible, but he could perhaps transfigure his wand to make it have a pointy end and stab Sirius. Transfiguring wands would be cool, raises interesting possibilities. JB __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 26 02:58:13 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 02:58:13 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter, the ultimate edition In-Reply-To: <9m9lnp+f03a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m9ok5+a8lp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24909 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > (something about two countries divided by a common language--I should > go to quote.com and look up who said that). George Bernard Shaw. It's on the Strictly British page of the Lexicon. Just uploaded also: complete differences between the British and US editions, every changed word, etc. I've uploaded SS and CS so far and hope to get the rest put together tonight yet. You can find these and other language helps on the Lexicon help/about page: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/help.html And the reason I brought up the annotated version in the first place is that I've been working on one. I have the first couple of chapters of SS done. Some folks around here know I've been talking about this idea for some time. In the meantime, you should really check out the resources on the Lexicon. I added the "fairy lights" bit to the Strictly British page earlier this evening. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http;//www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From katzefan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 03:26:11 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:26:11 -0000 Subject: Snape's Favorite Things [FILK] In-Reply-To: <9m6ntc+tf0f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9m9q8j+p0kl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24910 ENCORE! ENCORE! * sound of loud applause * (after picking self up off floor, laughing like mad) Sorry, forgot to send this last night. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > Snape's Favorite Things > A Filk by Pippin to the tune of 'My Favorite Things' > from The Sound of Music > Dedicated to the Snapefans group > > > Toad guts and rat spleens and lacewings and leeches > Slimy things floating in jars where he teaches > Bicorns and bezoars, billywig stings > These are a few of Snape's favorite things > > Wrecking the roses, evicting the smitten > Bagging on Ron because Malfoy got bitten > Binding up Lupin with magical strings > These are a few of Snape's favorite things > > Telling Malfoy to cast serpensortia > Catching those prats with their blue Ford Anglia > Swishing his cloak like a big pair of wings > These are a few of Snape's favorite things > > Stalking Hogwarts > In the evenings > Searching high and low > 'Cause picking on Harry's his favorite thing > Wherever the kid may go. > > Threatening harm until someone confesses > Which side he'll end up on, anyone's guess is > Is he a good guy or is it a sting? > Pondering Snape is my favorite thing > > Stalking Hogwarts > In the evenings > Looking like a bat > But if he's a vampire > There's no way to know > 'Cause Rowling ain't told us that From katzefan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 04:39:44 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:39:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore fading; British-to-North-American Message-ID: <9m9uig+4rnp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24911 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jennifer wrote: > (re: Dumbledore's future) > 1) We could *think* he's dead for a book or 2, and then he >returns in the last one (heh...or he disappears right before the >climactic ending of #7 & returns saying "oh what happened?" >with a sly grin). > > 2) He could actually be dead. Remember his association with >Fawkes. It could be that he's really a LOT older than he is, but >keeps dying & returning to the scene (interesting thought -- >maybe he *IS* the Merlin). > > 3) He could die to protect Harry somewhere, in the style of his >mother. Thus giving Harry protection (whether we are sure of >that or not...I'm sure JKR can make us wonder up until the very >last moment). > > 4) This one I think would be very interesting, but destroys the > Harry-dying-at-end theory (although not necessarily the > can't-really-continue-the-series-now-can-I part). Remember, >when Harry first went into Dumbledore's office, Fawkes went >poof and was reborn from his own ashes. Symbolic of >something perhaps? I've briefly wondered if that means that >Dumbledore will either die or retire or something...and Harry >will take his place. Not necessarily as Hogwarts' > headmaster (but that *would* be interesting), but they have >said that Harry could be a very impressive wizard (look at the >patronius he made at such a young age, for example)...and we >all know that Dumbledore is a rather awesome wizard. Also >goes along with the Order of the Phoenix title -- perhaps all of >the masters went like this (don't remember what was said >about the previous headmaster, except that he wouldn't have > been so nice)? > Thoughts? Comments? The more I think about it, the more I >like #4...or something very similar to that. I'm intrigued by #2 - perhaps it is The Merlin who keeps coming back in a variety of forms (Merlin, Gandalf, Dumbledore ... heck, even Obi-wan ...) when he is (or *will be*, considering how long Dumbledore's been around) most desperately needed. I didn't quite understand #4; were you suggesting Harry will, in some fashion, literally morph into a `new' Dumbledore? My own feeling is that Dumbledore *is* going to die, most likely in some epic struggle as Voldemort tries to re-assert his power, and unlike Gandalf, Dumbledore won't reappear - he really will be gone. Harry will ultimately be his successor (not immediately - he needs a lot more training and hands-on experience) but I think it's definitely in the cards. Oh, yes, and the other person who will come into his own will be Neville. I like the theory that he's blocked his abilities because of what happened to his parents -- but back him into a corner and watch out! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > ...In the meantime, you should really check out the resources >on the Lexicon. I added the "fairy lights" bit to the Strictly >British page earlier this evening. > The Canadian versions (published by Raincoast Books) seem to have come through with pretty much all the `Britishisms' intact. Most were easy enough to pick up from the context, but I'd never have guessed the Knight Bus was a pun (it's been 20 years since I was in Britain), and I couldn't figure out whether the Knickerbocker Glory was a British version of a banana split or a Big Mac. Curiously, I thought sherbet lemons were something like popsicles (triggered by the phrase "... Dumbledore, who was unsticking two sherbet lemons...." [PS/SS] We used to buy popsicles and then go outside and smash them against the corner of the building to split them apart.) I did wonder why they weren't melting all over his cloak.... One thing I've noticed in the books -- JKR uses `dived' as the past tense of `to dive' (CoS: `Through a haze of rain and pain he dived for the shimmering, sneering face below him and saw its eyes widen with fear: Malfoy thought Harry was attacking him.") Is that a Britishism? I was taught the past tense of `dive' is `dove'; i.e. "he dove for the shimmering,..." etc. etc. ********************************** But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a whole new light. "Hermione, Neville's right - you *are* a girl..." "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly. From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 06:00:15 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:00:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Descriptions; and what about the other four senses? References: <9m6ccs+v2fs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007601c12df4$778d3ea0$5b3770c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 24912 Frantyck said: < In each case, this is *more or less* all that we ever hear about the appearance of these characters. What Rowling gives the reader is an assemblage of discrete physical characteristics; the reader fills in the gaps, literally.>> Wonderful analysis, Frantyck, and a very good point, referring back to the recent thread about the universal appeal of Harry Potter. I think this early 'cartooning' of the characters is key to their wide appeal. There are gaps to be filled, so the reader fills them in, but, to some extent, the stereotypes are already imprinted on the subconscious like cattle brands - Ron the clown, Hermione the swot, Hagrid the gentle henchman, McGonagall the schoolmarm, Snape the nasty teacher, Vernon the blustering uncle. This perhaps sets the scene for some 'surprising' deviations from character, based mainly on behaviour. Another, related factor that often has an effect on the reader is the names of the characters. We've often discussed this here, but Rowling has a sort of genius for naming her characters. More often than not, the hints given in the names are obvious (Remus Lupin might as well have had a big neon sign on his head saying "beware of the werewolf"), but she still has the nack of conveying a great deal in her choices. I always recall her comment on "dumbledore" being an obsolete English word to describe a bumblebee, and the fact that she read it in an old dictionary, somewhere. I wonder how much of her subsequent characterisation of Dumbledore was triggered by that perfect, disused name she found, and how much from her previous plotting for the character? < >> This raises an interesting point that may associate with the fact that people with one or more senses dulled or missing may demonstrate improvements in other senses. If the input from one sense is particularly keen, it may heighten the experiencing of the world, but create a view of it that is distorted. In the visual domain, this might be likened to getting a buzz from an Impressionist painting that wouldn't be there in a photograph of the same subject. One of my favourite books is "Perfume" by Patrick Sskind. Briefly, for those of you who haven't read it, it's about a man born with a very acute sense of smell, who is driven to seek the ultimate scent. The descriptive language of the book hits the reader in the face, and I think that's because it focuses overwhelmingly on the olfactory sense. There is a distortion in that that creates a very unusual, bold experience. <> I'm sure I'll get jumped on for saying this, but JKR is not the most poetic of writers. I'm know she is capable of poetic phrasing, but she often chooses instead the combination of straightforward language you describe. This is clearly important in the appeal of the books to children, and suggests to me that JKR intends to be inclusive of younger readers, even if she isn't writing specifically for them [obligatory get-Penny-off-my-back disclaimer]. Whatever the formula is, it works. Neil (back in the UK and glad to be driving on the right side of the road again: i.e. the left) ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 06:21:41 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:21:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] interesting thought re: Mrs. Figg (cabbage smell) References: <9m9h34+o4ip@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <008b01c12df7$5faf98c0$5b3770c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 24913 Steve wrote: <> Interesting idea, I agree. There does seem to be a suggestion that Mrs Figg is a pivotal character in some way, and her association with the Dursleys places her unnervingly close to Harry. At first thought, it seems inconceivable that Dumbledore could be so fooled by a fake Arabella Figg, but he was so fooled by a fake Alastor Moody... the old fool! The cabbage smell also cropped up in the World Cup camping scene in GoF, when one of the tents was described as having that cabbage smell reminiscent of Mrs Figg's place. Was this because the tent was really an all-mod-cons room made to look like a tent, and had therefore required a spell related to the Polyjuice Potion to achieve the illusion? The smell of cooked cabbage being associated with witchcraft is not unique to JKR, IIRC. I'm sure I've read similar references in Diana Wynne Jones' books, and I gathered that it was something that was accepted outside the Potterverse. I remember doing an internet search when this issue first came up, but I found nothing to support an involvement of cabbage in making spells. If anyone knows what the significance is, I'd love to know - I'm very fond of cabbage and hopeful that this is an indicator of as yet undiscovered magical abilities. Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 06:57:50 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:57:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] another play on words that slipped by me References: Message-ID: <00ae01c12dfc$6c305580$5b3770c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 24914 On in-jokes, Amanda noted the reference to Ford Prefect in Hitchhiker's Guide... and Jami asked: <> I was strangely drawn to this question - dunno why ;-) I think the joke with the Ford Anglia is not in its name, but in the fact that it is regarded as a very comical car, having been once been voted "the ugliest car ever made". It's therefore amusing that Arthur decided to acquire, and soup up, this particular vehicle. It's akin to his choice of unfashionable clothing for the Quidditch World Cup. The Ford Anglia (105E model, not the earlier version) is also a *very* tiny car, about the same size as a Mini. When JKR arrived in one for the launch of GoF at King's Cross Station, it created a rather comical scene, as she and a few minders unfolded themselves onto the platform. The fact that it is so tiny works comically against the large size of the Weasley brood, and the fact that the magical car appears to have such a roomy back seat. There may also be a slight joke in the fact that the rear wings of the 1960s Ford Anglia were its distinctive feature (they were pointed), and that the magical car is able to fly with these 'wings'. Okay, I'm really stretching a point here, but give me a break: I'm jetlagged! On the general point of puns and plays on words that might escape non-British readers, part of the problem is in identifying the things that won't be understood. 'Pavement' for 'sidewalk' or 'fringe' for 'bangs' are easy to spot, but it's not obvious to us Brits that the joke in terms like 'fairy lights' and 'night bus' wouldn't be understood. Having worked on some of Steve's Lexicon's Strictly British section with Doreen, I can explain that the point of that project was to mop up such words and phrases: Doreen sent me mystery phrases from the US editions of the books (by definition having escaped the editorial translation), and I attempted to define them. Unfortunately, we seem to have stalled after running through PS/SS, but I think it's worth continuing with it. Having just returned from the US, I have a renewed interest in the differences between British and US English. During my trip, I felt bemused by terminology on more than one occasion, but it was fun imagining the processes that had led to the differences. I love all that... Neil aka Flying Ford Anglia, Mechanimagus Moderator (not tiny, hopefully not ugly, but definitely owning a roomy back seat) From klhurt at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 09:25:31 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 02:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore fading? In-Reply-To: <3B87F0D0.1842E9B9@atlantic.net> Message-ID: <20010826092531.27379.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24915 --- Jennifer wrote: >It could be that he's really a LOT >older than he is, but keeps dying & >returning to the scene (interesting >thought -- maybe he *IS* the Merlin). I got all excited thinking maybe Dumbledore *is* an animagus who turns into a Phoenix when at death's door, flames and rises from the ashes and then returns to human form as a young man. I even had a theory that Dumbledore really *is* Godric Gryffindor reborn time & again. But, as usual when I have wild ideas, reality set in and I remembered a comment in GoF in which Dumbledore uses a present tense verb that makes it impossible for Dumbledore to be Godric Gryffindor. [L.O.O.N. members are nodding.] It also means he can't be an animagus-phoenix unless he's never done the resurrection thing. Foiled again! Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 11:17:55 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:17:55 -0000 Subject: The other senses - escapee puns - Mrs. Figg Message-ID: <9malt3+m3a3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24916 Frantyck, terrific post on JKR's language. There is another sense that she uses a lot, but I don't know if it has a name; it needs a fancy term like "internal kinesthesia" or such. "Harry looked up at the owner of the hand on his shoulder and felt a bucketful of ice cascade into his stomach," PA 3. "Harry turned to look at her and his stomach gave a weird lurch as though he had missed a step going downstairs," and "It was odd; a moment before, his insides had been writhing like snakes, but suddenly he didn't seem to have any insides at all," and "His insides had come back again. It felt as though they had been filled with lead in their absence," all GF 22. "Out of the corner of his eye he saw the fluttering banner high above, flashing *Potter for President* over the crowd. His heart skipped," PS/SS 11. etc. Her use of this "sense" is not terribly innovative (it mostly focuses on the stomach, e.g., which is a pretty common literary locus for emotion), but it stands out to me as one of her favorite forms of sensory language. Thanks, Amanda, for the Ford Prefect tipoff. Twenty years after encountering Hitchhiker's Guide, I finally get the joke. Neil wrote: >There may also be a slight joke in the fact that the rear wings of the 1960s >Ford Anglia were its distinctive feature (they were pointed), and that the >magical car is able to fly with these 'wings'. Okay, I'm really stretching >a point here, but give me a break: I'm jetlagged! I don't think you're stretching it! This is another lost-on-the-Yanks joke, because we don't call them wings, we call them fins or tailfins. A small joke, true, but I doubt it's a coincidence that of all the cars she could have chosen, JKR picked one with wings. I did twig to the fact that "fairy lights" has another meaning, but only because the text particularly draws attention to the use of real fairies (maybe it helped that it was being interpreted to me by someone who got the joke, since I was listening to the audiobooks). I still didn't know exactly what they were. It's funnier when you've actually heard the term. I love the cabbage-Polyjuice-Mrs. Figg connection. This is *just* the kind of tiny little thing JKR would plant in books one and two for us all to say "AHHHHH!" to in book five. I hate cooked cabbage, and as a picky eater, it has frequently occurred to me that I'd find life at Hogwarts difficult. Potions and magical remedies do not seem to be designed with picky eaters' tastes in mind. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------------- "See, there was this wizard who went . . . bad. As bad as you could go. Worse. Worse than worse. His name was . . ." Hagrid gulped, but no words came out. "Could you write it down?" Harry suggested. "Nah--can't spell it." -HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------------------------------- From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 13:08:51 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:08:51 -0000 Subject: interesting thought re: Mrs. Figg In-Reply-To: <9m9h34+o4ip@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9masd3+6r2g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24917 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: Could Arabella > really be someone else in disguise?" > > What an interesting observation! > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Maybe Arabella Figg is just younger than we think. Instead of Arabella being someone else, maybe she is the age of Sirius, Lupin, and Snape. She could possibly be brewing a potion to alter her appearance. Koinonia From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 13:22:14 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:22:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rowling's language Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24918 Neil wrote: >I'm sure I'll get jumped on for saying this, but JKR is not the most poetic >of writers. I'm know she is capable of poetic phrasing, but she often >chooses instead the combination of straightforward language you describe. >This is clearly important in the appeal of the books to children, and >suggests to me that JKR intends to be inclusive of younger readers, even if >she isn't writing specifically for them [obligatory get-Penny-off-my-back >disclaimer]. Whatever the formula is, it works. Children aren't the only ones drawn in by an easy read. Many of the adult fans I've talked to in the bookstore I work at comment on how nice it is to be able to sit back and enjoy a book, without having to constantly struggle with a complex narrative style. I know that in my personal experience, I have a much harder time "getting into" books that I have to fight to read - Shakespeare is brilliant, but I often have to read his plays multiple times before they strike any sort of personl chord with me. Rowling's simple, spproachable language makes her characters and storylines more approachable as well. You feel an almost instant kinship with Harry and his cohorts, grasping their essance in a paragraph or two and then getting on with the business of being thoroughly caught up in their adventures. That, and all this is MUCH easier for fanfic writers to emulate ;} muahaha Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 13:45:41 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:45:41 -0000 Subject: interesting thought re: Mrs. Figg (cabbage smell) In-Reply-To: <008b01c12df7$5faf98c0$5b3770c2@c5s910j> Message-ID: <9maui5+psbu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24919 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" wrote: > Steve wrote: > > > > <<"Also, isn't it peculiar that the smell of her house is described as > cabbage? And in the CS the finished Polyjuice potion smells like overcooked > cabbage. Could Arabella really be someone else in disguise?">> I have to say that this idea crossed my mind briefly but then i thought, that maybe Dumbledore has one of his friends disguised as an unthreatening old woman so as to protect Harry without drawing notice to herself, so that the Dursleys would not suspect what she was and prevent her from having contact with Harry. It's just a thoery, but it was mentioned (I think by Voldemort) that Harry was protected by very old magic envoked by Dumbledore while he was in the care of the Dursleys. Maybe this is what he was referring to? > >this places her unnervingly close to Harry. At first thought, it seems > inconceivable that Dumbledore could be so fooled by a fake Arabella Figg, > but he was so fooled by a fake Alastor Moody... the old fool! I dont think that Mrs. Figg poses a threat to Harry but rather the opposite... any thoeries? > > > -Mary From AAA143 at aol.com Sun Aug 26 13:53:36 2001 From: AAA143 at aol.com (AAA143 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:53:36 EDT Subject: Harry & The Dursleys Message-ID: <94.18edc1d0.28ba5960@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24920 The characters really need to stay in their personages for continuity, but I'd like to see the Dursleys' really get whomped without a memory curse. Anybody want to play with this? Paul From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 13:57:04 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:57:04 -0000 Subject: The Burrow (silly questions!) Message-ID: <9mav7g+a4j7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24921 I was just wondering (although this topic might already have been covered, I'm very new to all this!) do the Weasleys live in an ordinary Muggle village? If they do how does their house, unusual as it is, not attract attention from the muggle neighbours? In GoF Harry, Ron and his brothers play quidditch outside, how is this not noticed? THey also seem to have a terrible infestation of garden knomes, if this is in a muggle area, are they not noticed by the neighbours?? I would appreciate if someone could throw some light on the situation!!! -scaryfairymary! From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 14:00:35 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:00:35 -0000 Subject: Harry & The Dursleys In-Reply-To: <94.18edc1d0.28ba5960@aol.com> Message-ID: <9mave3+p19k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24922 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., AAA143 at a... wrote: > The characters really need to stay in their personages for continuity, but > I'd like to see the Dursleys' really get whomped without a memory curse. > Anybody want to play with this? > > Paul Yeah, me too!! It would be interesting, but I think Harry will have to continue to live with them, as he is very well proteced there (somehow) so maybe that might not be such a good idea! :P -scaryfairymary From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 14:06:33 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:06:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Burrow (silly questions!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24923 >I was just wondering (although this topic might already have been >covered, I'm very new to all this!) do the Weasleys live in an >ordinary Muggle village? If they do how does their house, unusual as >it is, not attract attention from the muggle neighbours? I get the feeling that the Weasley's live in a rural enough area for this not to be a problem. Whatever neighbours they do have are far enough away not to notice all the wizarding strangeness - otherwise, how could the kids play Quidditch in a nearby field without being spotted? Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Sun Aug 26 15:05:03 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:05:03 -0000 Subject: interesting thought re: Mrs. Figg (cabbage smell) In-Reply-To: <9maui5+psbu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mb36v+a6ah@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24924 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" wrote: > > Steve wrote: > > > > > > > > <<"Also, isn't it peculiar that the smell of her house is described > as > > cabbage? And in the CS the finished Polyjuice potion smells like > overcooked > > cabbage. Could Arabella really be someone else in disguise?">> > > I have to say that this idea crossed my mind briefly but then i > thought, that maybe Dumbledore has one of his friends disguised as > an unthreatening old woman so as to protect Harry without drawing > notice to herself, so that the Dursleys would not suspect what she > was and prevent her from having contact with Harry. It's just a > thoery, but it was mentioned (I think by Voldemort) that Harry was > protected by very old magic envoked by Dumbledore while he was in the > care of the Dursleys. Maybe this is what he was referring to? > At first thought, it > seems > > inconceivable that Dumbledore could be so fooled by a fake Arabella > Figg, > > but he was so fooled by a fake Alastor Moody... the old fool! The thing about Polyjuice Potion, though, is that it requires 'a bit of whoever we want to change into'; which is why Crouch Jr. kept Moody in his magical trunk for ten months, hacking off chunks of his hair whenever necessary, and why Crabbe and Goyle had to be fed a sleeping draught and had their hair yanked out. If there already was an old Arabella Figg living in the house, what would be the purpose of polyjuicing someone else to look like her? Someone like Crouch Jr. could do it for evil purposes, to get closer to Harry, but how would it work the other way? Of course, the aging potion (or any other kind of potion, for that matter) might also smell like cooked cabbage, so maybe it wasn't Polyjuice Potion at all, but something else entirely. Or maybe it was just cabbage.... Bente From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sun Aug 26 15:21:15 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:21:15 -0000 Subject: The Burrow (silly questions!) In-Reply-To: <9mav7g+a4j7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mb45b+j71g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24925 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > I was just wondering (although this topic might already have been > covered, I'm very new to all this!) do the Weasleys live in an > ordinary Muggle village? If they do how does their house, unusual as > it is, not attract attention from the muggle neighbours? In GoF > Harry, Ron and his brothers play quidditch outside, how is this not > noticed? THey also seem to have a terrible infestation of garden > knomes, if this is in a muggle area, are they not noticed by the > neighbours?? > I would appreciate if someone could throw some light on the > situation!!! > -scaryfairymary! The books hint that they live outside Ottery St. Catchpole and that the Weasley's play Quidditch in a paddock but they have to fly low to prevent Muggles from spooting them. IIRC, in "Fantastic Beasts", some magical creatures are "protected" species. That is, they are enchanted so that Muggles don't notice them. Gnomes probably fall under this category. :-)Milz From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 16:29:45 2001 From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] interesting thought re: Mrs. Figg In-Reply-To: <9m9h34+o4ip@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010826162945.51550.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24926 --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: > Someone emailed this little tidbit to me about > Arabella Figg. I have > to admit that I never made this connection. What do > you all think of > it? > > "Also, isn't it peculiar that the smell of her house > is > described as cabbage? And in the CS the finished > Polyjuice > potion smells like overcooked cabbage. Could > Arabella > really be someone else in disguise?" > > What an interesting observation! > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon > A thought occured to me after reading this. We know that JKR said that Arabella Figg is a squib, however, maybe the woman we know of as Arabella Figg is actually an imposter. Perhaps the *real* Mrs. Figg is a squib who happened to live in the same neighborhood as the Dursleys. Dumbledore knew this, and when he placed Harry there, he switched the real Arabella with one who could offer Harry the protection he needed. That would seem to explain why the polyjuice potion and her house seem to have cooked cabbage in common. As to needing "a bit" of the person, maybe the real Arabella is alive and well and supplying the imposter with hair trimmings to ensure a ready supply of the potion? Regardless, as Hermione would say, "Well spotted" for noticing the cabbage connection! :) ~Bethany __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 26 17:33:50 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:33:50 -0000 Subject: CHAT PROBLEM Message-ID: <9mbbtu+beqb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24927 if you're going to chat today, enter the chat room through loathsome Yahoo and not through Cheetah, because Yahoo changed the name of the chat room and Cheetah can't get into the new room. Also, if anyone knows how to save the transcript on Yahoo, please tell me. From cimorene21 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 17:50:35 2001 From: cimorene21 at hotmail.com (cimorene21 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:50:35 -0000 Subject: interesting thought re: Mrs. Figg In-Reply-To: <20010826162945.51550.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9mbctb+q51b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24928 Do we know that all polyjuice potion smells of overcooked cabbage, though? The different potions-- with the essence of different people-- aren't the same color. Did everyone smell the cabbage, or was it just Harry? *goes for to check CoS* --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bethany wrote: > > --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: > > Someone emailed this little tidbit to me about > > Arabella Figg. I have > > to admit that I never made this connection. What do > > you all think of > > it? > > > > "Also, isn't it peculiar that the smell of her house > > is > > described as cabbage? And in the CS the finished > > Polyjuice > > potion smells like overcooked cabbage. Could > > Arabella > > really be someone else in disguise?" > > > > What an interesting observation! > > > > Steve Vander Ark > > The Harry Potter Lexicon > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon > > > A thought occured to me after reading this. We know > that JKR said that Arabella Figg is a squib, however, > maybe the woman we know of as Arabella Figg is > actually an imposter. Perhaps the *real* Mrs. Figg is > a squib who happened to live in the same neighborhood > as the Dursleys. Dumbledore knew this, and when he > placed Harry there, he switched the real Arabella with > one who could offer Harry the protection he needed. > That would seem to explain why the polyjuice potion > and her house seem to have cooked cabbage in common. > As to needing "a bit" of the person, maybe the real > Arabella is alive and well and supplying the imposter > with hair trimmings to ensure a ready supply of the > potion? > > Regardless, as Hermione would say, "Well spotted" for > noticing the cabbage connection! :) > ~Bethany > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From vderark at bccs.org Sun Aug 26 17:50:53 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:50:53 -0000 Subject: The Burrow (silly questions!) In-Reply-To: <9mav7g+a4j7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mbctt+t86e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24929 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > I was just wondering (although this topic might already have been > covered, I'm very new to all this!) do the Weasleys live in an > ordinary Muggle village? If they do how does their house, unusual as > it is, not attract attention from the muggle neighbours? In GoF > Harry, Ron and his brothers play quidditch outside, how is this not > noticed? THey also seem to have a terrible infestation of garden > knomes, if this is in a muggle area, are they not noticed by the > neighbours?? > I would appreciate if someone could throw some light on the > situation!!! > -scaryfairymary! Nice of you to bring this up. I am in the process of researching the Burrow for a map I'm drawing for the Wizard's Atlas. Here's some facts that help to answer your question: The Burrow is located "a little way outside the village" of Ottery St. Catchpole. This village is located in Devon, along the River Otter. The Burrow has a tumbledown garage and a small yard, with a fairly good-sized garden out back (which includes a pond and room enough for a big family dinner). The Muggle postal carrier doesn't know where the Burrow is, so it's probably not directly connected to the village by any obvious road. There are neighbors fairly nearby, however, and the neighbors can see the Burrow. The Burrow is larger than just the house and small yard, however. It includes some area of fields and, presumably, trees, since the area around the Burrow is described as "fields and clumps of trees." They also own an orchard, and it is in the orchard that they have a small paddock, where the boys practice Quidditch (flying low so that the neighbors don't see them and not using real Quidditch balls, which might escape and frighten the Muggles in town). A couple of interesting points: 1 - On the other side of the village from the Burrow is a hill called Stoatshead Hill. 2 - There are only a few other Wizarding families in the vicinity of Ottery St. Catchpole, and they don't really socialize much. Amos Diggory wasn't even familiar with the Weasley children enough to recognize them. Arthur isn't absolutely sure that there aren't more Wizarding families about. 3 -These families are the Lovegoods, who are fairly poor (since they had to go to the Quidditch World Cup a week early), and the Fawcetts, who might be the family of the Miss Fawcett from Ravenclaw. 4 - The Diggories live quite some way from Stoatshead Hill. They had to walk there and in order to make it in time, they had to get up at 2 am. That means that they're at least four or five miles away from the village. That doesn't sound like much, but in the Wizarding world it is. (Just imagine haw far things would seem if YOU had no car!) 5 - JKR was asked in an interview why Gnomes are considered a bad thing. She replied that they burrow up the ground like moles, which makes a mess. Also, and this points toward something someone mentioned on the list, the fact that a garden has gnomes is pretty much a dead giveaway that it's a Wizard's garden. That's why they go to the trouble to de-Gnome gardens. resources from the Lexicon: The Burrow (includes a marvelous picture) http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/w_pl_burrow.html The Weasley family: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/weasley.html The Wizard's Atlas (includes map of Wizarding Britain, showing the location of Ottery St. Catchpole) http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/atlas-b-britain.html Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From warhound at accessus.net Sun Aug 26 21:23:57 2001 From: warhound at accessus.net (WarMaster) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:23:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Favourite Details. Message-ID: <000a01c12e75$6af3d2e0$2e92cecf@warhound> No: HPFGUIDX 24930 Hello, This is the first time I've posted and I've enjoyed lurking in order to get an idea of the group. I'm glad I found the group before book #5 comes out so that I'll be up on all the ins and outs of the various plots and be able to discuss the book more lucidly. My favorite detail is in the GoF when Ron blurts out that Hermione is a girl and she responds acidly, "Oh well spotted." Cracks me up everytime. This is in line with how JKR is dealing with the sexuality issue in the HP books. She does it naturally. What is refreshing is there is no hype and no over sexualizing of the characters. There was a bit of hype with the media in that it was always noted that "Harry will be interested in a girl" but JKR handled it in a rather normal way for kids of this age which, to me, is epitomized in this exchange between Ron and Hermione. Hoping to add to further discussions. Beverly (whose favorite character is Mrs. Weasley but is wondering why she was cold to Hermione after Rita Skeeter's article about a love triangle between Hermione, Harry, and Victor Krum. Surely she doesn't actually believe that trash!) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 19:57:22 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:57:22 -0000 Subject: The Burrow (silly questions!) In-Reply-To: <9mbctt+t86e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mbkb2+67a2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24931 Steve wrote: > They also own an orchard, > and it is in the orchard that they have a small paddock, where the > boys practice Quidditch (flying low so that the neighbors don't see > them and not using real Quidditch balls, which might escape and > frighten the Muggles in town). I read CoS before PS/SS, and the first-chapter description of Quidditch didn't tell me much, so that when I got to the bit about using apples because the balls might escape, I was highly amused and intrigued. I think it was a funnier way to encounter Quidditch than if I'd read them in order. > the fact that a garden has gnomes is pretty > much a dead giveaway that it's a Wizard's garden. That's why they go > to the trouble to de-Gnome gardens. . . . by hurling them into the next-door neighbor's garden . . . I think it's a good thing if the Weasleys don't have a neighbor too close by. Amy Z who lives right across the road from a perfect field for Quidditch, very secluded--y'all come on over and play sometime From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Aug 26 21:31:31 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:31:31 -0000 Subject: Who uses the name? Message-ID: <9mbprj+ed20@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24932 So far, we know that strong wizards (Dumbledore, Sirius, Harry and Lupin) say Voldemort. We know that Crouch/Moody, McGonnagle, the Weasleys do not. I don't remember about Hermione or Snape, and I think Crouch Sr. does. But in PoA, Wormtail refuses to use the name in the Shrieking Shack, then uses it, then doesn't. In GoF, I think Wormtail never uses the name. Is this a mistake, or does it show some sort of divided loyalty of Wormtail? Cindy ---------------- "Voldemort, teach me tricks?" [Black] said. Pettigrew flinched as though Black had brandished a whip at him. "Innocent but scared!" squealed Pettigrew. "If Voldemort's supporters were after me, it was because I put one of their best men in Azkaban -- the spy, Sirius Black!" Pettigrew: "The Dark Lord . . . He Who Must Not Be Named forced me -- " From Evilonewon at aol.com Sun Aug 26 21:59:54 2001 From: Evilonewon at aol.com (Evilonewon at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:59:54 EDT Subject: How do muggleborns find Diagon Alley? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24933 Hello, as suggested, I've been lurking a while and I haven't seen this come up so I've decided to come out of the woodwork to ask. How do Muggleborns, like Hermione, find Diagon Alley, or even find out about it? It isn't mentioned in Harry's letter and Harry himself says in SS/PS that he wouldn't have noticed the Leaky Cauldron if Hagrid hadn't pointed it out to him. So how would Muggleborns buy their school supplies? If this question has already been addressed, could someone please point me in the direction of the post number? Thank you. ~ Corinne ************************************************** Corinne Staggs Evilonewon at aol.com ? ? ? ? "Gods protect me, you're going to die a virgin," he whispered. "What say we find a nice private haystack and take care of that?" ~ Cleon to Kel in Squire by Tamora Pierce Last movie seen:? "The Princess Diaries" Discman's spinning:? "Scenes from a Memory" by DreamTheater Nighttable:? "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" (for the fifth time) by J. K. Rowling *************************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 23:05:07 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?Windows-1252?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:05:07 -0500 Subject: Favorite Detail - Muggles and Diagon Alley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24934 ?Now, you two ? this years, you behave yourselves. If I get one more owl telling me you?ve ? you?ve blown up a toilet or ?? ?Blown up a toilet? We?ve never blown up a toilet.? ?Great idea though, thanks, Mom.? ?It?s _not funny_.? ?Hurry up!? their mother said, and the three boys clambered onto the train. They leaned out of the window for her to kiss them good-bye, and their younger sister began to cry. ?Don?t, Ginny, we?ll send you loads of owls.? ?We?ll send you a Hogwarts toilet seat.? ??_George!_? ?Only joking, Mom.? Harry swallowed and looked around him. He realized he must be in the hospital wing. He was lying in a bed with white linen sheets, and next to him was a table piled high with what looked like half the candy shop. ?Tokens from your friends and admirers,? said Dumbledore, beaming. ?What happened down in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrell is a complete secret, so, naturally the whole school knows. I believe your friends Misters Fred and George Weasley were responsible for trying to send you a toilet seat. No doubt they thought it would amuse you. Madam Pomfrey, however, felt it might not be very hygienic and confiscated it.? - PS/SS, Page 96-97 & 296, American Paperback Edition Maybe I?m just weird, but the whole toilet seat thing was really funny to me. As for the Muggles and Diagon Alley issue? the same question was raised in message number 23147. You can look it up in the message archives and read all of the replies. I believe the general consensus was that different letters are sent to muggleborn students than the ones sent to wizarding families. Since Harry was supposed to know about his heritage, he received one of the latter. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From usergoogol at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 23:19:07 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:19:07 -0000 Subject: How do muggleborns find Diagon Alley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mc05b+2am9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24935 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Evilonewon at a... wrote: > Hello, as suggested, I've been lurking a while and I haven't seen this come > up so I've decided to come out of the woodwork to ask. How do Muggleborns, > like Hermione, find Diagon Alley, or even find out about it? It isn't > mentioned in Harry's letter and Harry himself says in SS/PS that he wouldn't > have noticed the Leaky Cauldron if Hagrid hadn't pointed it out to him. So > how would Muggleborns buy their school supplies? If this question has > already been addressed, could someone please point me in the direction of the > post number? Thank you. > ~ Corinne > Beats me. Maybe muggle borns get a special extra page in their letter. I have deeply pondered this question, because I am in the process of creating a fanfic. (Takes place in the slight future, Neville's the Headmaster of an American school he help found.) From pbnesbit at msn.com Mon Aug 27 00:02:06 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:02:06 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday HPfor Grownups Message-ID: <9mc2lu+4g4u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24936 Hi everyone, I meant to do this on Friday, but age is creeping up on me and I forgot. Friday was the one year anniversary of this group. A year of marvelous discussions, nitpicks, laughter, and yes, even tears. I raise a glass of butterbeer to the Magical Mod Squad, the Elves, and my listsibs for making this such a wonderful year! Peace & Plenty, Parker From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 27 00:04:42 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:04:42 -0000 Subject: Who uses the name? In-Reply-To: <9mbprj+ed20@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mc2qq+ugi5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24937 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > So far, we know that strong wizards (Dumbledore, Sirius, Harry and > Lupin) say Voldemort. We know that Crouch/Moody, McGonnagle, the > Weasleys do not. I don't remember about Hermione or Snape, and I > think Crouch Sr. does. > > But in PoA, Wormtail refuses to use the name in the Shrieking Shack, > then uses it, then doesn't. In GoF, I think Wormtail never uses the > name. Is this a mistake, or does it show some sort of divided > loyalty of Wormtail? > > Cindy > ---------------- > "Voldemort, teach me tricks?" [Black] said. > Pettigrew flinched as though Black had brandished a whip at him. > > > > "Innocent but scared!" squealed Pettigrew. "If Voldemort's > supporters were after me, it was because I put one of their best men > in Azkaban -- the spy, Sirius Black!" > > > > Pettigrew: "The Dark Lord . . . He Who Must Not Be Named > forced me -- " I think Peter's waffling in this scene in what name he chooses to use for Voldemort may be more of an unconscious indication of his desperate scramble to find some common ground with his old friends. He has no one's protection, as V. has not regained his power, so Peter has no one he can turn to, now that his worst nightmare, an angry Sirius Black, is standing in front of him. Peter's use of "He- Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" seems to me to be a way to indicate that he's just like all the other anti-V people who think of Voldemort as so evil that they cannot bear to speak his name. Of course, Remus and Sirius are not buying this routine, and in the course of the conversation Peter lets slip the name Voldemort. Curious that he uses it in the phrase "Voldemort's supporters," of which he was one. I've also always thought it revealing of Peter's character in this scene that, even when he's begging for his life, he never expresses any sorrow or regret for his actions. Marianne From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 00:35:21 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:35:21 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Figg In-Reply-To: <9malt3+m3a3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mc4k9+p6ih@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24938 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > I love the cabbage-Polyjuice-Mrs. Figg connection. This is *just* the kind of tiny little thing JKR would plant in books one and two for us all to say "AHHHHH!" to in book five. > > I hate cooked cabbage, and as a picky eater, it has frequently > occurred to me that I'd find life at Hogwarts difficult. Potions and magical remedies do not seem to be designed with picky eaters' tastes in mind. I wonder whether the reason for Polyjuice Potion smelling like cabbage has to do with The Invasion of the Body Snatchers, in which the aliens had the human duplicates growing in cabbage patches (I also wonder whether this is the joke with Cabbage Patch Dolls). If we knew whether JKR had seen this or read Jack Finney's book, it might be clearer. Also on the cabbage smell, I just read the bit where a medium in "Good Omens" was boiling brussels sprouts in her apartment to prepare for a seance because she simply thought that this was how her clients would expect her apartment to smell. Brussels sprouts look like miniature cabbages. JKR seems to have many Gaiman/Pratchet references in her books. --Barb From joyw at gwu.edu Mon Aug 27 01:30:14 2001 From: joyw at gwu.edu (- Joy -) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:30:14 -0400 Subject: Pre-Ordering OoP Message-ID: <01b001c12e97$d325e520$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24939 Has anyone found a store (either online or off) that will let you pre-order "Order of the Phoenix"? I signed up to get notification from Amazon when it was available, but their phrasing worries me. It says that I'll be notified when the book is in stock. Well, I'd like to get my name on some sort of list, so that I will get a copy shipped to me automatically as soon it is available. I'd rather not wait in line or wait for them to get in a second shipment. I wasn't a fan during the GoF release, so I'm not really sure how it works. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks! ~Joy~ http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 Last Movie Seen: "American Pie 2" Now Reading: "Death of a Salesman" by Arthur Miller From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 27 01:52:59 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:52:59 -0000 Subject: The Lord of the Snitch (filk) Message-ID: <9mc95r+4a3m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24940 The Lord of the Snitch (based on a possibly recognizable prefatory poem) Dedicated to "The Lord of the Lex" Steve Vander Ark (the true Big V!) Three men are the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the jerk Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may last three months, or may but last a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. (three-volume epic to follow) - CMC P.S. I needed a one-syllable word in the first line. No disrespect intended to female Quidditch players. From s_ings at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 02:10:53 2001 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy Birthday HPfor Grownups In-Reply-To: <9mc2lu+4g4u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010827021053.66522.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24941 --- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I meant to do this on Friday, but age is creeping up > on me and I > forgot. > > Friday was the one year anniversary of this group. > A year of > marvelous discussions, nitpicks, laughter, and yes, > even tears. > > I raise a glass of butterbeer to the Magical Mod > Squad, the Elves, > and my listsibs for making this such a wonderful > year! > > Peace & Plenty, > > Parker Even if it weren't a birthday I would raise a glass of butterbeer to everyone who has made this such a wonderful place to be! Sheryll, joining the toast __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 02:15:02 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pre-Ordering OoP In-Reply-To: <01b001c12e97$d325e520$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> Message-ID: <20010827021502.89451.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24942 Joy, I am not 100% certain but I believe Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble online (sorry don't remember the URL at the moment) will allow you to preorder (they send you an e-mail to make sure before they send it). They take credit cards(obviously), check cards, and money orders. Hope that helps. Danette --- - Joy - wrote: > Has anyone found a store (either online or off) that > will let you pre-order > "Order of the Phoenix"? I signed up to get > notification from Amazon when it > was available, but their phrasing worries me. It > says that I'll be notified > when the book is in stock. Well, I'd like to get my > name on some sort of > list, so that I will get a copy shipped to me > automatically as soon it is > available. I'd rather not wait in line or wait for > them to get in a second > shipment. I wasn't a fan during the GoF release, so > I'm not really sure how > it works. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks! > > ~Joy~ > > http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 > Last Movie Seen: "American Pie 2" > Now Reading: "Death of a Salesman" by Arthur Miller > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Aug 27 02:40:21 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:40:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who uses the name? In-Reply-To: <9mbprj+ed20@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010826193641.00bbbcf0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24943 At 09:31 PM 8/26/01 +0000, cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: >I don't remember about Hermione or Snape... Hermione says, "You-Know-Who"; Snape says, "The Dark Lord"... -- Dave From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 03:00:32 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy Birthday HPfor Grownups In-Reply-To: <20010827021053.66522.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010827030032.11236.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24944 Add all of us Malletts with a toast too! Happy Birthday our FAVORITE group!!!! Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Merry Band of Muggles raise a big toast! --- Sheryll Townsend wrote: > > --- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > I meant to do this on Friday, but age is creeping > up > > on me and I > > forgot. > > > > Friday was the one year anniversary of this group. > > > A year of > > marvelous discussions, nitpicks, laughter, and > yes, > > even tears. > > > > I raise a glass of butterbeer to the Magical Mod > > Squad, the Elves, > > and my listsibs for making this such a wonderful > > year! > > > > Peace & Plenty, > > > > Parker > > Even if it weren't a birthday I would raise a glass > of > butterbeer to everyone who has made this such a > wonderful place to be! > > Sheryll, joining the toast > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute > with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From indigo at indigosky.net Mon Aug 27 05:59:52 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 05:59:52 -0000 Subject: Pre-Ordering OoP In-Reply-To: <01b001c12e97$d325e520$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> Message-ID: <9mcnko+6e77@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24945 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., - Joy - wrote: > Has anyone found a store (either online or off) that will let you pre-order > "Order of the Phoenix"? I signed up to get notification from Amazon when it > was available, but their phrasing worries me. It says that I'll be notified > when the book is in stock. Well, I'd like to get my name on some sort of > list, so that I will get a copy shipped to me automatically as soon it is > available. I'd rather not wait in line or wait for them to get in a second > shipment. I wasn't a fan during the GoF release, so I'm not really sure how > it works. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks! > > ~Joy~ > > http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 > Last Movie Seen: "American Pie 2" > Now Reading: "Death of a Salesman" by Arthur Miller I set mine up for a preorder by Amazon.com about a week after I finished Goblet of Fire, and it's still on pre-order as an order that will remain incomplete until the book is shipped. Indigo From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 27 09:07:59 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:07:59 -0000 Subject: Pre-Ordering OoP In-Reply-To: <20010827021502.89451.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9md2lf+nr3s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24946 I just tried to pre-order OoP in Amazon, but it doesn't recognize the title. Could some kind person please tell a technically declined idiot how to go about doing this? Many thanks. Mary Ann From jsteinb103 at aol.com Mon Aug 27 10:03:15 2001 From: jsteinb103 at aol.com (jsteinb103 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:03:15 -0000 Subject: Pre-Ordering OoP In-Reply-To: <9md2lf+nr3s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9md5t3+stmn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24947 > I just tried to pre-order OoP in Amazon, but it doesn't recognize the > title. Could some kind person please tell a technically declined > idiot how to go about doing this? Many thanks. > > Mary Ann It's listed as Harry Potter 5. However, they aren't taking pre- orders yet. What the amazon.com site says is that you can sign up to get an e-mail when it is "available to be ordered". Hope this helps! Julia From katrina at gmx.at Mon Aug 27 11:52:50 2001 From: katrina at gmx.at (katrina at gmx.at) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:52:50 -0000 Subject: learning french by reading the french version: does someone have a word list? Message-ID: <9mdcai+lls3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24948 Hi, I learnt French in school and started revising it some time ago. Now I had this great idea of reading Harry Potter in French and go over my vocabulary this way. Did anyone have the same idea? I'd love to have a list of words that are slightly over the basic vocabulary with translation (into English or German). (extracting them from the book is hard work) Does anyone know of a source in the web? (I've been looking hard) thanks, katrin From hpfan1962 at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 27 16:51:04 2001 From: hpfan1962 at yahoo.ca (=?iso-8859-1?q?L=20Bergeron?=) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] learning french by reading the french version: does someone have a word list? In-Reply-To: <9mdcai+lls3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010827165104.7937.qmail@web20206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24949 Hi, I am a French reader of Harry Potter's books. You can find some translations at http://www.hpgalleries.com/wordgallery4.htm . I'm learning a lot by reading the emails too! Hope it will help. Lise --- katrina at gmx.at a crit :
Hi,
I learnt French in school and started revising it some time ago. Now
I had this great idea of reading Harry Potter in French and go over
my vocabulary this way.

Did anyone have the same idea? I'd love to have a list of words that
are slightly over the basic vocabulary with translation (into English
or German).

(extracting them from the book is hard work)

Does anyone know of a source in the web? (I've been looking hard)

thanks,
katrin
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===== - Griffindor Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Aug 27 17:34:18 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:34:18 -0000 Subject: Wands and Robes for Animagi In-Reply-To: <9m6a1i+j4uj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9me0aq+s4tj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24950 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > > I think it highly unlikely that animagi transform without their > wands. I get the feeling from Harry, that when in the magical world, > and even when stranded in the Muggle world, the wand is essential, > and that most witches and wizards would feel naked without it. I > would go as far as to say that a wand is almost an extension of self, > thus making a witch or wizard without it feel very insecure at best, > or as though some part of themselves were missing, at worst. > > Therefore, it makes absolutely no sense to me that a witch/wizard > can't keep their wands with them when they transform. It is also not > practical. We know that they keep their clothes - it stands to > reason that they keep everything on their person. Look at > travelling, for instance. We know a lot of people do not like > apparating. What if they wanted to travel somewhere in their animal > form, which may be very convenient if they happen to be an animal > which can fly, for instance. They can't exactly do this and leave > the wand behind, can they? > > All in all, it seems very impractical, and IMO, nonsensical, for them > not to have their wands with them, which is why I am not discounting > my own theories on the absence of Pettigrew's wand just yet. > > Catherine. > I'm still puzzling over this issue of what animagi take with them when they transform. It seems they keep their robes. But we learn in PoA that when Pettigrew blew up the street, they found "bloodstained robes." Yet Pettigrew turns up 12 years later wearing robes. Also, Black uses Snape's wand in the Shrieking Shack to conjure manacles. So when Black transforms into an animagus shortly after, why doesn't he keep Snape's wand? I thought that maybe Black did keep the wand, and it was confiscated later and returned to Snape, but that doesn't make sense, because Snape clearly has the wand as soon as he wakes up. Also, if Black had a wand, he could ward off the dementors without Harry's help. Any ideas? Cindy ------------------------ "He had been starting to quite like Cedric--prepared to overlook the fact that he had once beaten him at Quidditch, and was handsome, and popular, and nearly everyone's favorite champion. Now he suddenly realized that Cedirc was in fact a useless pretty boy who didn't have enough brains to fill an egg cup." GoF "The Unexpected Task" From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 27 17:34:39 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:34:39 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore fading? In-Reply-To: <9m8muj+4ho1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9me0bf+m3m5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24951 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > I couldnt help noticing (to my horror) that JKR kept stating that > Dumbledore looked weary and very old, especially in the chapter about > the pensieve (GoF) and the thought struck me... is she going to kill > him off. But also: after returning from Little Hangelton with Cedric's corpse, Harry notes his surprising physical strength when Dumbledore lifts him; a few moments later, Harry for the first time realizes why Voldemort so feared Dumbledore when he sees the look of "cold fury" on his face as he surveys the fallen Barty Crouch. "An indefinable power" radiates from Dumbledore as he confronts Cornelius Fudge over Voldemort's comeback. Dumbledore's elegy to Diggory shows him at the height of his powers. Dumbledore will perish at some point, but I think quite late in the story. He still has a lot to explain to Harry - e.g., since the first question Harry asked of him was why Voldemort wanted to kill him, it makes sense that it will be Dumbledore who will finally reveal this (he promised to tell Harry when he was old enough). And there are other puzzles - what was that gleam of triumph about? Why does he trust Snape? etc. Eventually, we'll learn, but I think the answers will be spread out over the next three books. My prediction is that Dumbledore makes it midway through Volume Seven before leaving us for good. I do agree it makes sense that Harry has to face Voldemort in the end without Dumbledore's mortal presence. (Though he will be there in spirit, of course) - CMC From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Aug 27 18:14:02 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:14:02 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore fading? In-Reply-To: <9me0bf+m3m5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9me2la+9qe1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24952 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: >> > And there are > other puzzles - what was that gleam of triumph about? Why does he > trust Snape? etc. Eventually, we'll learn, but I think the answers > will be spread out over the next three books. > Yes, and there is another strange Dumbledore moment that I've wondered about. In GoF, Dumbledore and Harry are hurrying over to the disoriented Mr. Crouch. When Harry says he left Crouch with Krum, Dumbledore immediately asks, "Do you know if anybody else saw Mr. Crouch?" How strange! More natural would be "Was anyone else there?" As JKR writes it, it sounds like D is worried that lots of people will know Crouch is on the grounds. Hmmm. Cindy ------------ "Harry could tell Snape was thoroughly enjoying himself, denying Harry the thing he wanted when he was so panicky." GoF, Ch. 28. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Aug 27 18:17:38 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:17:38 -0000 Subject: What was the GoF error that caused JKR so much trouble? Message-ID: <9me2s2+6vsl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24953 I've searched and searched, and I can't find a discussion of this. As I understand it, JKR was writing GoF and was about half through when she noticed a plot problem. She went back and fixed it. It is something other than the wand order. Has the group decided what it was? I apologize for raising this, but I need someone to point me in the right direction. Thanks. Cindy ------ "And Mr. Crouch evaporated, did he?" said Hermione coldly. GOF, Ch. 29. From joym999 at aol.com Mon Aug 27 19:59:25 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:59:25 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix (mostly), was Re: Figg/Cats - Priori Incantatem..... In-Reply-To: <3B807CAA.56C63B69@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9me8qt+4fqj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24954 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > Becky wrote > > > Mrs Figg is also absurdly fond of her cats. > > Mrs. Figg is quite reasonably and appropriately fond of her cats IMHO. Spoken like a true catlady! You tell em! [As The Catmunist Felinifesto says: Cat lovers of the world, unite! All you have to lose are your small, breakable items, your unstained rugs, and your houseplants!] Didnt JKR say in interviews that she is (1) not particulary fond of cats, but that (2) cats will be increasingly more important in later books? Or am I just starting rumors here? > Becky wrote > > Are there any heavily supported rumours about the next > > book, other than Lupin being in it and it being called > > Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix? > > Rumors: We will find out why Mrs. Figg has all those cats. We will find > out whether Percy is going to turn evil. Harry will go to a magical > place which the readers have heard of but never seen before. [Guesses as > to what that place is include St. Mungo's, Azkaban, the chamberpot room > at Hogwarts, Egypt where Bill Weasley works as a cursebreaker.] Rumor: > We will learn the magic properties of a room at Hogwarts whose existence > but not whose magic we already know about. [Guesses as to which room > include: the chamberpot room, the prefects' bathroom (and that its magic > is that boys and girls can bathe at the same time without seeing each > other), Or, even more magically, that they are allowed to bathe at the same WITH seeing each other, but I guess if that were true then everyone would want to be a prefect, even Fred and George. > and the small room next to the Great Hall with the portraits of > deceased Headmasters.] Rumor: A beloved character will die. I'm very > much afraid it will be Remus, who is MUCH beloved by me and other women > with good taste. Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not Remus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think this would be a good time to start collecting rumors/predictions about OoP, maybe in an FAQ. We could even place odds on them. It would be fun to see how right we are. IIRC, some people were much better at others at predicting GoF (I was wrong about everything; I was sure Sirius was toast.) Any volunteers? --Joywitch From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Mon Aug 27 20:01:35 2001 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:01:35 -0000 Subject: Wands and Robes for Animagi In-Reply-To: <9me0aq+s4tj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9me8uv+cuki@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24955 I return briefly from a lengthy period of lurking (in my absence, the membership of this group seems to have just about doubled itself) for these questions. --- In HPforGrownups, Cindy wrote: [snip] > I'm still puzzling over this issue of what animagi take with them > when they transform. It seems they keep their robes. But we learn > in PoA that when Pettigrew blew up the street, they > found "bloodstained robes." Yet Pettigrew turns up 12 years later > wearing robes. It seems to me that Pettigrew had done some planning in advance on this bit; the whole charade comes together a bit too well to be something thought up on the spot when Sirius approached him. My guess is that the bloodstained robes could have been a spare set carried with him for the express purpose of being left behind as a clue. He could also have a spare set stashed away in a convenient location. > Also, Black uses Snape's wand in the Shrieking Shack to conjure > manacles. So when Black transforms into an animagus shortly after, > why doesn't he keep Snape's wand? I thought that maybe Black did > keep the wand, and it was confiscated later and returned to Snape, > but that doesn't make sense, because Snape clearly has the wand as > soon as he wakes up. Also, if Black had a wand, he could ward off > the dementors without Harry's help. I do not have the books handy at the moment (they are due to arrive by automobile this weekend, along with my TV, 10ft of magazines, kitchen-utensils, etc. (courtesy of my parents)), and so cannot verify the following 100% myself, but as I recall, it is not a given that Snape was using his wand at the moment, just that he was using *a* wand. Do werewolves keep their clothes with them when they go "hairy snout"? If not, it could be Professor Lupin's wand. It could also be Harry's wand, picked up after Harry fainted from the after-effects of the Dementors, or Ron's or Hermione's wand. Snape is a quick thinker, I suspect, and would not hesitate to grab the nearest wand. Best regards Christian Stub? From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Mon Aug 27 20:38:50 2001 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:38:50 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang-location; HeidiT; Ice-swimming In-Reply-To: <9m9k8c+pugv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9meb4q+713p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24956 Ahh... School-locations - a favourite of mine. I'll start with swimming, however. Beeing Norwegian myself, I echo the sentiments of Bente and hannata (messages included below; I didn't find a name for hannata, although I did search), and add this: I come from Lofoten, which is far to the North. We have here a beach which this summer was named the best beach in norway. Water- temperature ranges between 4 degrees centigrade and 12 degrees centgrade in the summer. People still go swimming. While I have no factual numbers, it does not seem unreasonable to me that the water- temperatures in the lake during winter are comparable. And at any rate, there surely must be some charms to keep you warm? Also, Krum was practising for the second task, and may have already brough in the transfiguration-trick (with the shark's head), and that may have made him partially immune to the cold temperatures. Regarding school-locations, JKR did a book-reading in Glasgow sometime last autumn, where she stated that she thought Beauxbatons was in Southern France, while Durmstrang was in the rather extreme North of Norway or Sweden. She went on to add that she wasn't quite certain, because these schools were so very secretive about their location. Myself, I had a brilliantly argued theory about Durmstrang being located near Kandalaksa, a city on the Southern coast of the Kola-peninsula, towards the White Sea. My theory is thoroughly laid out at message 20286, ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/20286 ; you may have to cut&paste to get the correct link) which also contains links to previous messages by me on the subject (the first one made around the end of November last year). The city of Kandalaksa is on a similar latitude to the Northern parts of Norway and Sweden. Kandalaksa is also in European Russia. The school needs not be close to Bulgaria for Krum to be part of the Bulgarian team; Norway has or has had professional female soccer- players playing on Japanese and American teams; this has not prevented them from participating on the Norwegian national team, although they have access only to modes of transport that are far less convenient and far more tiring that those of wizards. Heidi Tandy, could you send me a mail offlist, please? Best regards Christian Stub? --- In HPforGrownups, Bente wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups, hannata wrote: > > > >Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to > > >mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal > > >people can't swim in water like that. > > > > OK, I'm from Finland and that is not normal, but I really do have > > to tell this "truth" about swimming in January. We actually do > > swim winters, we just make this hole in the ice and there we go.. > > I don't believe that the water is really freezing in Scotland in > > January, while our lakes are really frozen.. > > > > What becomes to the names Durmstrang, Igor Karkakoff, Viktor Krum > > and so on, they mind sound like german, but I think that they may > > come from a really large area.. but let's face it. Krum plays > > quiddich in Bulgarian team, which means, that the school has to be > > close to Bulgaria (like Hogwarts is school for Irish and British > > wizardstudents, might Durmstrang be shcool for several countries > > wizardstudent). > > I'm from Norway, and I have to agree about the whole swimming in > winter thing. It's done, all over Scandinavia, and people don't > seem to suffer in the least for it. Krum probably spends most of > his time in a climate that's much colder than that of Scotland. > My thinking has always been that Durmstrang is located somewhere > on the northern coast, hence the ship the Durmstrang students > arrived in. The Black Sea would work, I suppose, but it's more > likely to be somewhere much colder. If it was inland, the ship > wouldn't make much sense though, would it? According to the > students' names, Durmstrang seems to be a school for wizards of > Slavic distraction, anyway. > > Bente From moreta at technologist.com Mon Aug 27 21:06:50 2001 From: moreta at technologist.com (Susan Keaney (Navarro)) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:06:50 -0000 Subject: Hugo Awards Message-ID: <9mecpa+18am@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24957 Hi, I know "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" are nominated for a Hugo in the category of Novel. I was wondering if anyone has heard any rumors/has any knowledge of whether or not J. K. Rowling will be attending the Hugo Award Ceremony. Thanks, Susan. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Aug 27 21:20:10 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:20:10 -0000 Subject: Wands and Robes for Animagi -- Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: <9me8uv+cuki@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9medib+cnjp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24958 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pengolodh_sc at y... wrote: > > [snip] > I do not have the books handy at the moment (they are due to arrive > by automobile this weekend, along with my TV, 10ft of magazines, > kitchen-utensils, etc. (courtesy of my parents)), and so cannot > verify the following 100% myself, but as I recall, it is not a given > that Snape was using his wand at the moment, just that he was using > *a* wand. Do werewolves keep their clothes with them when they > go "hairy snout"? If not, it could be Professor Lupin's wand. It > could also be Harry's wand, picked up after Harry fainted from the > after-effects of the Dementors, or Ron's or Hermione's wand. Snape > is a quick thinker, I suspect, and would not hesitate to grab the > nearest wand. > > Best regards > Christian Stub? Thanks, Christian. But I don't think Snape is using Lupin's wand, because Pettigrew dived for Lupin's wand, Harry disarmed him, and the wand flew high in the air and out of sight. Also, we know Snape had a wand when he woke up (as opposed to using Harry's wand) because when Harry sees Snape conjuring stretchers for himself and Hermione, Ron is already on a stretcher. It doesn't seem logical that Snape would wake up and go searching in the bushes or wherever for Lupin's wand. More likely is that Snape picks his own wand up off the ground and starts using it, or he is using Ron's wand, as you say. Finally, if Black does have a wand, why doesn't he ward off the dementors? Either he doesn't know how (hardly seems likely) or he can't pull it off with someone else's wand? Oh, and while I'm grinding my teeth figuring out how everything winds up where it does, can someone answer another question. At the end of PoA, Lupin gives the Invisibility Cloak back to Harry, saying he retrieved it from the Shrieking Shack. But earlier, JKR says Lupin tucked it into his pocket in the Shrieking Shack. A mistake? The cloak should have been lying on the ground outside the Willow. Cindy ----------------------- "You should have realized," said Lupin quietly, "if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Good-bye, Peter." Prizoner of Azkaban. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Aug 27 21:29:15 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:29:15 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix (mostly), was Re: Figg/Cats - Priori Incantatem..... In-Reply-To: <9me8qt+4fqj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mee3b+4r6p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24959 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > > I think this would be a good time to start collecting > rumors/predictions about OoP, maybe in an FAQ. We could even place > odds on them. It would be fun to see how right we are. IIRC, some > people were much better at others at predicting GoF (I was wrong > about everything; I was sure Sirius was toast.) Any volunteers? > > --Joywitch Joywitch -- I'll go on record that the beloved figure who will die is Hagrid. I will be shocked if it is someone else. Hagrid has outlived his usefulness. Well, almost, anyway. He has two more jobs to do. First, he has to send an envoy to the giants. Then he has to die protecting Dumbledore ("I'd trust Hagrid with my life"). No way will it be Lupin. There are too many cool plot twists that can involve Lupin. It just isn't Lupin's time -- yet. Cindy -------------- "I'm not botherin' with her no more. Big bones . . . I'll give her big bones." GoF From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Aug 27 22:02:25 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:02:25 -0000 Subject: The Cup as Portkey Question In-Reply-To: <98dagj+adj8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9meg1h+5kvl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24960 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > > > Why make the Cup a portkey when Harry's toothbrush would work just as > well? > > Like the Grinch, we have all puzzled on this till our puzzlers were > sore, but today an answer hit me with the force of a well-placed > Impedimenta charm. It was so simple. The answer lie in the portkey > itself. > > Picture it Little Hangleton, June. Voldy and Wormtail await the bane > of their existences--young Harry Potter. Once he arrives, > disoriented and properly frightened, he is tied to Daddy Riddle's > tombstone, and forced to provide Voldy with a blood sample. Voldy > reincorporates into the Big Bad of yesteryear, at which point he > calls in his Death Eaters, chastises them for a bit, and then > disposes of Harry, after an invigorating game of cat and mouse. > > (With me so far? Okay. Because here's where it gets good.) > > At this point Voldy and his lowly minions *Touch The Portkey And > Return To Hogwarts* to begin the new Reign of Terror. *This* is why > the portkey was rigged to return to Hogwarts. > > They arrive outside of the maze, with Harry's lifeless body (after > all a good gloat is needed) and begin decimating the future wizarding > population. They're merely students (and not just Hogwarts students > either, but Beauxbatons and Durmstrang as well), easy prey. Also in > the arena is Karakoff the coward, Snape the spy, Bagman, the MoM > Fudge, Dumbledore, and, of course, Crouch as Moody. Crouch didn't > just "forget" to take his Polyjuice Potion. It wasn't needed. He > could begin hurling hexes as Moody (in all the chaos who could tell > for which side he was playing?) and after the potion wore off, he > could fight clearly as himself, alongside his Dark Lord. > > After the battle, Voldemort would be in absolute power and all would > be right in his world. > > It was so brilliant. It was so simple. It should have worked. > > Fortunately for us, Harry had an ace up his sleeve, or rather, a > pheonix feather in his wand and managed to foil Voldy's plan once > again. > > Respectfully submitted for your approval... > > Trina > Now 86% obssessed. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Aug 27 22:13:52 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:13:52 -0000 Subject: The Cup as Portkey Question In-Reply-To: <98dagj+adj8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9megn0+ro2k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24961 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > Or, By George I've Got It! > > Having recently done a GoF re-read, the last terrifying and emotional > chapters have been on my mind a lot. This morning, while briefly > considering the What Might Have Been if Cedric had been the only one > to grasp the cup--a thoroughly frightning idea which is a post of its > own, I returned to the Eternal Question-- > > Why make the Cup a portkey when Harry's toothbrush would work just as > well? > > Like the Grinch, we have all puzzled on this till our puzzlers were > sore, but today an answer hit me with the force of a well-placed > Impedimenta charm. It was so simple. The answer lie in the portkey > itself. > > Picture it Little Hangleton, June. Voldy and Wormtail await the bane > of their existences--young Harry Potter. Once he arrives, > disoriented and properly frightened, he is tied to Daddy Riddle's > tombstone, and forced to provide Voldy with a blood sample. Voldy > reincorporates into the Big Bad of yesteryear, at which point he > calls in his Death Eaters, chastises them for a bit, and then > disposes of Harry, after an invigorating game of cat and mouse. > > (With me so far? Okay. Because here's where it gets good.) > > At this point Voldy and his lowly minions *Touch The Portkey And > Return To Hogwarts* to begin the new Reign of Terror. *This* is why > the portkey was rigged to return to Hogwarts. > > They arrive outside of the maze, with Harry's lifeless body (after > all a good gloat is needed) and begin decimating the future wizarding > population. They're merely students (and not just Hogwarts students > either, but Beauxbatons and Durmstrang as well), easy prey. Also in > the arena is Karakoff the coward, Snape the spy, Bagman, the MoM > Fudge, Dumbledore, and, of course, Crouch as Moody. Crouch didn't > just "forget" to take his Polyjuice Potion. It wasn't needed. He > could begin hurling hexes as Moody (in all the chaos who could tell > for which side he was playing?) and after the potion wore off, he > could fight clearly as himself, alongside his Dark Lord. > > After the battle, Voldemort would be in absolute power and all would > be right in his world. > > It was so brilliant. It was so simple. It should have worked. > > Fortunately for us, Harry had an ace up his sleeve, or rather, a > pheonix feather in his wand and managed to foil Voldy's plan once > again. > > Respectfully submitted for your approval... > > Trina > Now 86% obssessed. ------- Trina, That's very interesting. But I had approached the question of why Moody doesn't turn some ordinary object into a portkey and get on with it a little differently. I don't think there's any evidence that portkeys work at Hogwarts. There are lots of instances in which people could use portkeys to get to or around the castle, but don't. (Floo powder, on the other hand, does work at Hogwarts, as we saw Lupin come out of Snape's fireplace). Harry and Ron stole a car rather than use a portkey in Book 2. Lupin and the students ride the train instead of using portkeys. So I'm thinking that Bertha Jorkins tells Crouch/Voldemort/Wormtail that the Cup is a portkey that transports the winner to the entrance of the maze, specially permitted by Dumbledore just for the Tournament. They realize that their only chance of transporting Harry to Voldemort for rebirthing is to use the only portkey that will work: the Cup. A toothbrush won't work. Then, as others have stated, it is Moody's job to change the settings on the Cup to go to Voldemort instead. As for the Cup taking Harry to the opening of the maze, Moody/Voldemort didn't know whether Moody was inserting the graveyard as a pit stop or changing the original destination entirely. Anyway, it's a theory. Cindy -------- "Well, well, well, I never thought I'd meet a third-year class who wouldn't even recognize a werewolf when they saw one." PoA, Ch. 9. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 22:14:41 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wands and Robes for Animagi -- Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: <9medib+cnjp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010827221441.99845.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24962 --- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: > Oh, and while I'm grinding my teeth figuring out how > everything winds > up where it does, can someone answer another > question. At the end of > PoA, Lupin gives the Invisibility Cloak back to > Harry, saying he > retrieved it from the Shrieking Shack. But earlier, > JKR says Lupin > tucked it into his pocket in the Shrieking Shack. A > mistake? The > cloak should have been lying on the ground outside > the Willow. Snape retrieved the Cloak from beneath the Whomping Willow and used it to follow them into the Shrieking Shack. He threw it off when he so dramatically revealed himself, leaving the Cloak conveniently on the ground for Lupin to retrieve. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 27 23:28:17 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:28:17 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9mee3b+4r6p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mel2h+6sge@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24963 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > > > > I think this would be a good time to start collecting > > rumors/predictions about OoP, maybe in an FAQ. We could even place > > odds on them. It would be fun to see how right we are. IIRC, some > > people were much better at others at predicting GoF (I was wrong > > about everything; I was sure Sirius was toast.) Any volunteers? > > > > --Joywitch > > Joywitch -- I'll go on record that the beloved figure who will die is > Hagrid. I will be shocked if it is someone else. Hagrid has > outlived his usefulness. Well, almost, anyway. He has two more jobs > to do. First, he has to send an envoy to the giants. Then he has to > die protecting Dumbledore ("I'd trust Hagrid with my life"). > > No way will it be Lupin. There are too many cool plot twists that > can involve Lupin. It just isn't Lupin's time -- yet. I'm not going to predict who will die in the next book because I think I can make a case for at least a dozen people. My prediction is that the new DADA professor, who reportedly will be female, is a contemporary of Snape, Black and Lupin, and has(d) a romantic involvement with one of them. Marianne From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Aug 27 23:41:39 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:41:39 -0000 Subject: Wands and Robes for Animagi -- Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: <20010827221441.99845.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9melrj+c5no@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24964 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea wrote: > --- cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > Oh, and while I'm grinding my teeth figuring out how > > everything winds > > up where it does, can someone answer another > > question. At the end of > > PoA, Lupin gives the Invisibility Cloak back to > > Harry, saying he > > retrieved it from the Shrieking Shack. But earlier, > > JKR says Lupin > > tucked it into his pocket in the Shrieking Shack. A > > mistake? The > > cloak should have been lying on the ground outside > > the Willow. > > Snape retrieved the Cloak from beneath the Whomping > Willow and used it to follow them into the Shrieking > Shack. He threw it off when he so dramatically > revealed himself, leaving the Cloak conveniently on > the ground for Lupin to retrieve. > > > Andrea > I'm sorry, I wasn't clear in my wording. The sequence was that Snape picks it up and brings it to the Shrieking Shack. Then Lupin puts it into his pocket and takes it outside, where Lupin transforms. Then Lupin runs into the forest as a werewolf. So the Cloak is either with Lupin in the forest, or lying on the ground outside the Whomping Willow. So why does Lupin say he "brought this from the Shrieking Shack" -- the one place the cloak could not possibly have been? Cindy > ===== > "Reality is for people who lack imagination." > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From bonds0097 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 23:51:35 2001 From: bonds0097 at yahoo.com (=?Windows-1252?Q?Alfredo_Ram=EDrez?=) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:51:35 -0500 Subject: Wands and Robes for Animagi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 24965 Once more, I shall venture a WoD explanation. In Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Garou (Werewolves) are able to shift into three different forms. These forms are irrelevant. What matters is this: One of the first rituals a young Garou learns is ?Talisman Dedication?. What is this so-called ?Talisman Dedication ? you ask? Quite simply, it ?dedicates? and object to the Garou so that when he shifts and then reverts to his original form he retains the objects he had before. I think it?s possible that Animagi can learn a similar ritual/spell. They simply ?dedicate? their wands and robes and so whenever they shift into animal form and back into human, they still have whatever they were wearing and their wands. They only retain objects that have been dedicated to them, hence the ?Talisman? title, they?re objects that they always use. Wands and robes seem to fill this role. This way, if an animagi shifts when holding his wand or wearing robes, he?ll still have them when he returns to human form. He won?t keep anybody else?s wand or robes though since they?re not ?dedicated? to them. JB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 00:01:00 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:01:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore - Cats - Portkey - Cloak Flint Message-ID: <9memvs+67lh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24966 CMC wrote: >He still has a lot to explain to Harry - e.g., since the first > question Harry asked of him was why Voldemort wanted to kill him, it makes sense that it will be Dumbledore who will finally reveal this (he promised to tell Harry when he was old enough). To nitpick, he didn't promise to tell; he told Harry that when he was old enough he would know. I tend to think (and hope) Harry will come to understand it not through an end-of-book summing-up chat with the Big D but in some other way. However, I agree with your basic point that we have a lot to learn from and about Dumbledore before his curtain falls. Joywitch wrote: >Didnt JKR say in interviews that she is (1) not particulary fond of >cats, but that (2) cats will be increasingly more important in later >books? Or am I just starting rumors here? She definitely said (1)--specifically, she said they would be what she ordered into Room 101, a statement I may not forgive her for. Brits, please tell me that's just an expression for "things you really dislike." Don't know about (2). We cat lovers can only hope. To her credit, cats are good guys/gals so far: Crookshanks, Minerva. Cindy wrote: > So I'm thinking that Bertha Jorkins tells Crouch/Voldemort/Wormtail > that the Cup is a portkey that transports the winner to the entrance > of the maze, specially permitted by Dumbledore just for the > Tournament. They realize that their only chance of transporting > Harry to Voldemort for rebirthing is to use the only portkey that > will work: the Cup. A toothbrush won't work. Then, as others have > stated, it is Moody's job to change the settings on the Cup to go to > Voldemort instead. I like this theory best of all the ones I've heard, but it's undermined by Crouch's confession: Then Dumbledore said "And tonight . . ." "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner," whispered Barty Crouch. "Turned it into a Portkey." (very end of ch 35) Cindy also wrote: > The sequence was that Snape > picks it up and brings it to the Shrieking Shack. Then Lupin puts it > into his pocket and takes it outside, where Lupin transforms. Then > Lupin runs into the forest as a werewolf. So the Cloak is either > with Lupin in the forest, or lying on the ground outside the Whomping > Willow. So why does Lupin say he "brought this from the Shrieking > Shack" -- the one place the cloak could not possibly have been? You're right--it's a Flint. Good catch! Someone send Cindy a pack of BB Every Flavor Beans, and a membership card for LOON! Amy Z ----------------------------------------------- Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. -Helen Keller ----------------------------------------------- From warhound at accessus.net Tue Aug 28 02:04:36 2001 From: warhound at accessus.net (WarMaster) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:04:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle Parents/long separation... Snape and Roald Dahl Connection Message-ID: <001401c12f65$ca41d940$1292cecf@warhound> No: HPFGUIDX 24967 >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., degroote at a... wrote: >>I know that in GB >> sending kids to boarding school is fairly common, but aren't these >> long strtches without seeing parents (9-10 months)a bit unusual? Then magpie 1112 wrote in response: >I'd figure that most students go home during the winter holiday; >since the halls are all but empty when Harry, Ron & Hermione stay at >Hogwarts over the holiday, I'd guess that being away from home 9->10 months IS a bit unusual, but not uncommon. I don't believe that such a long stretch is all that unusual for GB boarding schools and I am basing this statement on the autobiography of Roald Dahl which is titled BOY. As a bit of background, since I shouldn't assume that everyone here is familiar with his works (I've been told never to ASSume anything because it could backfire and make a donkey's end of you), Roald Dahl (RD) wrote the deliciously funny children's books Matilda, James and the Giant Peach, The BFG, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, etc. His autobiography encompasses a time in his life from 1925-1929, which is when he went to (I'm thinking) a typical English boarding school called St. Peters which was just across the Bristol Channel from his home. RD goes there at the tender age of nine and is expected to stay there from September until Christmas break. They then have to go back after Christmas for the second term until the summer holiday. I don't know if it has changed since RD's school days, but what JKR writes is surprisingly similar to what RD experienced. In fact, someone wrote in an earlier post that Snape is probably just a caricature and couldn't be a real teacher but RD has a very Snape-like character that he made up for the book _Matilda_ (the headmistress by the name of Trunchbull) and even experienced one in real life through a really horrible teacher called Captain Hardcastle. Consider this exchange between Captain Hardcastle and Roald Dahl, who was 9 1/2, after RD had broken the nib (point) on his pen and was attempting to ask another student for a spare : (Please excuse the length, but it really is fascinating) "...I put a hand in front of my mouth and whispered, 'Dobson...Could you lend me a nib?' Suddenly there was an explosion up on the dais. Captain Hardcastle had leapt to his feet and was pointing at me and shouting, 'You're talking! I saw you talking! Don't try to deny it! I distinctly saw you talking behind your hand!' I sat there frozen with terror. 'Do you deny you were talking?' he shouted. 'No sir, b-but...' 'And do you deny you were trying to cheat?' 'N-no sir, I wasn't. I wasn't cheating.' 'Of course you were cheating! Why else, may I ask, would you be speaking to Dobson? I take it you were not inquiring after his health?' 'I have broken my nib, sir,' I whispered. 'I...I was asking Dobson if he c-could lend me one, sir.' 'You are lying!' cried Captain Hardcastle, and there was triumph in his voice. 'I always knew you were a liar! AND a cheat as well!'" Believe it or not, as a result of this nib incident, Roald Dahl was "caned" (spanked on the bare buttocks with a cane) six times. The reason: "Talking in class, trying to cheat and lying." Compare it with what Snape says to Harry when he says: "How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter. He too was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch field made him think he was a cut above the rest of us too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admireres...The resemblance between you is uncanny." Hate to say it, but Captain Hardcastle makes Snape seem very wholesome indeed. --Beverly (who had her own run-in with over-the-top teachers and is probably why she so favors homeschooling) From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 00:24:32 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:24:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore - Cats - Portkey - Cloak Flint In-Reply-To: <9memvs+67lh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9meoc0+m3t3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24968 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Cindy wrote: > > > So I'm thinking that Bertha Jorkins tells > Crouch/Voldemort/Wormtail that the Cup is a portkey that transports > the winner to the entrance of the maze, specially permitted by > Dumbledore just for the Tournament. They realize that their only > chance of transporting Harry to Voldemort for rebirthing is to use > the only portkey that will work: the Cup. A toothbrush won't > work. Then, as others have stated, it is Moody's job to change the > settings on the Cup to go to Voldemort instead. > > I like this theory best of all the ones I've heard, but it's > undermined by Crouch's confession: > > Then Dumbledore said "And tonight . . ." > "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner," > whispered Barty Crouch. "Turned it into a Portkey." (very end of > ch 35) > It could be that the answer to why Crouch/Moody didn't transport Harry to Voldemort at some earlier time is that making something into a Portkey, or learning how to make anything into a Portkey, is not the easiest magic to master (or the information might be closely guarded). Many spells are difficult for fully trained witches and wizards; we have already learned that many adult witches and wizards cannot conjure a Patronus. We have seen Basil from the Department of Magical Transportation collecting old Portkeys from the people arriving at the World Cup, as though this were very important (latent transportation magic in the items?). It could be that the creation and use of Portkeys is quite closely regulated by this department of the ministry. If it weren't, why couldn't any witch or wizard who couldn't Apparate simply make a Portkey to take themselves wherever they wanted to go? Mr. Weasley also needed special permission to put the fireplace on Privet Drive on the floo network temporarily. Magical transportation is clearly not something to be trifled with. A test and licensing is required to Apparate. It may very well have taken Crouch/Moody all year to work out how to make a Portkey out of the Tournament Cup that would take the winner to the graveyard where Voldemort and Wormtail would be waiting. Doing it in this manner would also make it difficult to lay blame on Crouch/Moody (except that someone might remember that he was the one who placed it in the maze). At least, that's the best job I can do of attempting to rationalize this otherwise mysterious plot point without contradicting canon... --Barb Get Psyched Out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 00:45:26 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:45:26 -0000 Subject: MOVIE-- McGonagall's Robes Message-ID: <9mepj6+mdm3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24969 I had read in an earlier post that Prof. Mcgonagall wore black robes in the movie of PS/SS, contrary to the clear description in the book. At the time I wondered why they would choose to do this, when it would be so easy to be faithful to the novel. Today at HP Galleries, I spied a page of movie stills entitled "Sorting Hat" which has a still from Harry's Sorting, and happily, I saw that McGonagall was wearing a beautiful emerald green outer robe (over black). YAY! Now if only they would make Hagrid's Hut out of wood instead of stone. Haggridd From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 28 00:48:19 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:48:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore - Cats - Portkey - Cloak Flint In-Reply-To: <9memvs+67lh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mepoj+9rlq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24970 Cindy wrote: > > > So I'm thinking that Bertha Jorkins tells Crouch/Voldemort/Wormtail > > that the Cup is a portkey that transports the winner to the entrance > > of the maze, specially permitted by Dumbledore just for the > > Tournament. They realize that their only chance of transporting > > Harry to Voldemort for rebirthing is to use the only portkey that > > will work: the Cup. A toothbrush won't work. Then, as others have > > stated, it is Moody's job to change the settings on the Cup to go to > > Voldemort instead. > > I like this theory best of all the ones I've heard, but it's > undermined by Crouch's confession: > > Then Dumbledore said "And tonight . . ." > "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner," > whispered Barty Crouch. "Turned it into a Portkey." (very end of ch > 35) > > Ah, but there's one more shred (and it is a tiny shred) of evidence to support the theory: When Moody gets his marching orders from Voldemort (a few pages before the end of Ch 35), it goes like this: Voldemort tells Crouch/Moody to guide Harry through the Tournament, to "ensure that he reached the Triwizard Cup. Turn the cup into a Portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master." One interpretation of this is that, even though the Cup was a Portkey already, the key is that Crouch/Moody is to change the destination. I also think that this makes sense given that we can hardly expect the winner of the Tournament to negotiate the many obstacles to find their way out of the maze, so it must have been a Portkey all along. Cindy ------- "He is so Creepy!" Pavarti whispered as Moody clunked away. "I don't think that eye should be allowed!" GoF, Ch. 23. From editor at texas.net Tue Aug 28 01:26:47 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:26:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and Robes for Animagi References: <9me0aq+s4tj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8AF357.674ED4F4@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24971 cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: > I'm still puzzling over this issue of what animagi take with them when > they transform. It seems they keep their robes. They must, or we'd have been treated to a stark naked McGonagall perched on the wall with Dumbledore in Chapter 1, Book 1. Pardon--she had her glasses on. In fact, I find it intriguing that the glasses translate into spectacle-shaped markings; I think the clothes and immediate accoutrements "go" with you in the animagus transformation. Excess stuff, like packages, boxes, or bags, or babies, won't be included (which prompted an interesting, if somewhat ooky, line some months ago on whether pregnant animagi can transform....). > But we learn in PoA that when Pettigrew blew up the street, they > found "bloodstained robes." Yet Pettigrew turns up 12 years later > wearing robes. Pettigrew had this planned. Pettigrew had time to cut off his finger, so he probably had no trouble dropping a spare set of robes, too. The dust and confusion from the explosion could easily have covered him for the minute or so needed. > Also, if Black had a wand, he could ward off the dementors without > Harry's help. Using all those happy memories? Even if he knew the spell, I doubt he had the inner reserves of happiness necessary to be the strength of the Patronus. I personally think he just had been through too much, and the appearance of the Dementors was the last straw, and he curled up into a ball and gave up. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Aug 28 01:53:10 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:53:10 -0000 Subject: Portkey In-Reply-To: <9meoc0+m3t3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9meti6+atrc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24972 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > It may very well have taken Crouch/Moody all year to work out how to > make a Portkey out of the Tournament Cup that would take the winner > to the graveyard where Voldemort and Wormtail would be waiting. > Doing it in this manner would also make it difficult to lay blame on > Crouch/Moody (except that someone might remember that he was the one > who placed it in the maze). > > At least, that's the best job I can do of attempting to rationalize > this otherwise mysterious plot point without contradicting canon...> I never had a problem with this part of the story. I like what you said about Crouch needing a while to develop his perfect portkey from Hogwarts, because I am sure it took more than just a point from his wand. I also like to think that Voldemort needed as much time as possible to harness what strength he could; remember, he had no real body and was gathering strength as time went on. By the end of the year, he was just strong enough to handle his rebirth or whatever we call it, because that Blood, Flesh and Bone scene was pretty intense. I'd also need plenty of time to prepare for something that hideous. --jenny from ravenclaw *************************************** From JamiDeise at aol.com Tue Aug 28 02:04:32 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:04:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Predictions for Order of the Phoenix Message-ID: <32.19ffe1b5.28bc5630@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24973 My predictions for OotP and beyond: One of Voldemort's followers will use the Imperius Curse on Ron to get him to betray Harry. Neville will come into his own, magically speaking, and become a force to contend with. Harry will succeed in winning Cho's heart, but Voldemort will kill her, or have her killed. During a confrontation with Voldemort and Wormtail, Harry will succeed in wounding Voldemort. Voldemort orders Wormtail to finish off Harry, but Wormtail can't do it. Voldemort will later kill Wormtail himself for the betrayal. Fudge will be revealed to be in cahoots with Voldemort. Voldemort kills Dumbledore. Fudge places Lucius Malfoy as headmaster at Hogwarts. The House-Elves play a vital role in helping the good guys fight back. Harry saves Snape's life. That's it for now, Jami From JamiDeise at aol.com Tue Aug 28 02:12:33 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:12:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco, Fudge and the GoF Message-ID: <8a.bb20ceb.28bc5811@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24974 It has often been speculated that Draco has a soft spot for Hermione, based on his warning off Harry, Ron and Hermione in the woods after the World Cup. I read this scene to my son last night for the 6th time, and got a completely different read on it. It sounded to me like Draco just wanted to get the three to leave him alone ... and he succeeded. If this is so, it begs the question, why? Since he wasn't doing anything he needed to hide, it seemed more likely that he was waiting to meet someone. But who? And for what purpose? In thinking about this question, I realized that someone very important is missing in the confrontation in the "Dark Mark" chapter. All the important Ministry Wizards are there. Everyone but ... Fudge. Fudge, who had invited the Malfoys, supposedly as a thank-you for his donation to St. Mungo's. Could Draco be waiting in the woods for Fudge? Or maybe Draco's lying in wait for some other reason. After all, the word "Draco" means "Dragon" in Latin ... and there's another, more famous name which also takes its root from the Latin "dragon" -- Dracula. Just some idle thoughts from a brain filled with GoF, Jami From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Aug 28 02:31:13 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:31:13 -0500 Subject: Elves Message-ID: <3B8B0271.2090104@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24975 Hi -- Joy is right: Yikes! Our elves are disappearing rapidly. Er.... is there something we can do to stop the bleeding so to speak? My impression is that the recent drop-outs have legitimate & pressing real life concerns, but I can't help but wonder if the Elfing system in general is too demanding (thus, people feel compelled to drop it when RL intrudes even the slightest). Do we need to try & revamp, streamline, automate the Elf system? Thoughts??? I agree with nominations for possible elves put forward by Joy, Amanda & Amy Z, btw. Penny From editor at texas.net Tue Aug 28 02:39:23 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:39:23 -0500 Subject: Elves References: <3B8B0271.2090104@swbell.net> Message-ID: <3B8B045A.8FA29376@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24976 An elf-related thought. Shall we invite some of the younger ones, the mature teens, specifically to elf the mature teens? I don't know how this would work, but it seemed to me that they could field the netspeakers deftly, their being a likelihood of their being bilingual in that respect. Just a quick thought (I have no time for any other kind, these days). We know who several of them are, they are the ones who so eloquently voiced displeasure at being dissed because of age. --Amanda From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 04:39:32 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore: "Anybody Else Saw Crouch" In-Reply-To: <9me2la+9qe1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010828043932.92170.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24977 --- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: >When Harry says he left Crouch with >Krum, Dumbledore immediately asks, "Do >you know if anybody else saw Mr. >Crouch?" >How strange! More natural would be >"Was anyone else there?" As JKR >writes it, it sounds like D is worried >that lots of people will know Crouch >is on the grounds. Hmmm. I think Dumbledore was hoping someone else had seen Crouch Sr. Why? Well, for one thing, when the Trio saw Peter Pettigrew, no one except Dumbledore believed them. With only Harry & Krum as witnesses this time, Dumbledore knows he might have trouble getting people to believe them. Another possibility is that Dumbledore was suspicious of Karkaroff and maybe even Krum. If Krum lied & said he never saw Crouch, Dumbledore would be left with only Harry as a witness. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From klhurt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 04:59:14 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Draco in Woods at the QWC In-Reply-To: <8a.bb20ceb.28bc5811@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010828045914.34925.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24978 --- JamiDeise at aol.com wrote: >It sounded to me like Draco just >wanted to get the three to leave him >alone ... and he succeeded. > >If this is so, it begs the question, >why? Since he wasn't doing anything he >needed to hide, it seemed more likely >that he was waiting to meet someone. >[snip] >Could Draco be waiting in the woods >for Fudge? Or maybe Draco's lying in >wait for some other reason. I've always read this scene this way: 1. Lucius & Narcissa decide to join with their DE friends to have a little fun with the Roberts family, knowing if the MoM Wizards get to close, the DEs can all Disapparate. 2. Draco would like to join in but he doesn't know how to Dis/Apparate yet, thus could get caught which would tie the entire family to all those things Lucius has tried to deny for years. 3. Therefore, the paternal Malfoys leave him in the tent with instructions to 'go with the flow' when the panic starts. 4. Draco, already awake, dressed and watching, goes into the woods with the first terrified escapees, but, because he's got no reason to be afraid, he stops where he can watch the fun. 5. The Trio comes by and Draco gets a chance to indulge in his favorite pastime, Potter-baiting, by again pointing out Hermione's lineage. That it sounds like a warning when he does so is just his way of working it into the conversation. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Aug 28 07:37:44 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:37:44 +1000 Subject: The Animagus Clothing Cop-Out Message-ID: <002401c12f94$54a8d2e0$3190aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 24979 Cindy: > I'm still puzzling over this issue of what animagi take with them when they transform. It seems they keep their robes. Animagi are common figures in fantasy novels (as I mused a couple of months ago), and every time a fantasy author decides to toss a couple into the plot, they hit that age-old problem of What To Do About Their Clothes. Arguments about "but it's Magic!" aside, I would argue that only the person's body should transform into the animal, with any clothing, objects carried, etc. left hanging ridiculously from the animal's body (picture a wolf crammed into Lupin's patched robes) or falling to the ground, unable to be held by a hoof or wing or paw. In Nancy Springer's Isle series she took this option, and then had to organise her plot around her characters being naked when they turned back into human form. However... JKR, like David Eddings, and many others before her, has taken the Clothing Cop-Out. In her books, when a fully-dressed, object-carrying person tranforms into another animal, everything they wear and carry apparently vanishes into a parallel dimension, to reappear when the animal resumes its human form. A particularly unconvincing moment for me in the Belgariad is when Garion, carrying the vitally important Orb of Aldur, asks Belgarath what happens to it when he changes into a wolf. Very good question, I say. Belgarath tell him that it "goes where our clothes go - they're with us, and at the same time, they're not" (how convenient), after which Garion says "Isn't that dangerous to have it hanging there, unattached, so to speak?" or something. Which is garbage, because as anyone can deduce, if you have something incredibly valuable, important and stealable which vanishes into intangible nowhere when you change form the Obvious Best Way to keep it safe is to change into animal form where no-one can get at it unless you change back!! Tsk tsk tsk. The main rationale for the Clothing Cop-Out seems to be convenience. It's terribly awkward to organise for the animal to carry human clothes with it, or to have to write in great irrelevant explanations around the nudity issue every time there's a shape change. Moreover, in JKR's case, the morality police are already on her back about the witchcraft issue: imagine how they'd cope if there was (gasp!) nudity in there as well? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 10:55:46 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:55:46 -0000 Subject: The Animagus Clothing Cop-Out In-Reply-To: <002401c12f94$54a8d2e0$3190aecb@price> Message-ID: <9mftbi+rkhj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24980 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > The main rationale for the Clothing Cop-Out seems to be convenience. It's terribly awkward to organise for the animal to carry human clothes with it, or to have to write in great irrelevant explanations around the nudity issue every time there's a shape change. Moreover, in JKR's case, the morality police are already on her back about the witchcraft issue: imagine how they'd cope if there was (gasp!) nudity in there as well? Oh I dunno, the thought of our favorite stud muffin Sirius lurking el bucko in the bushes, wondering where to find his robes again has a certain appeal. Of course I am not one of the morality police; I think we all should run around nekkid more often. One thing I have noticed though is that JKR makes a point of making some items of clothing-- names glasses in the cases of MM and RS-- transform into distinctive markings. Does this mean that the markings for an animagus can change over time? What ahppens if minerva decides to go for wizard contacts? --Suzanne From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 12:02:21 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:02:21 -0000 Subject: D's Crouch question - Clothing cop-out Message-ID: <9mg18d+u399@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24981 Cindy wrote: >When Harry says he left Crouch with >Krum, Dumbledore immediately asks, "Do >you know if anybody else saw Mr. >Crouch?" >How strange! More natural would be >"Was anyone else there?" As JKR >writes it, it sounds like D is worried >that lots of people will know Crouch >is on the grounds. Hmmm. I read it as a fear that someone is going to try to kill Crouch--that D. saw coming exactly what did happen, at least once he heard that Crouch was behaving strangely. Tabouli wrote: > Animagi are common figures in fantasy novels (as I mused a couple of months > ago), and every time a fantasy author decides to toss a couple into the plot, > they hit that age-old problem of What To Do About Their Clothes. Arguments > about "but it's Magic!" aside, I really don't think it's a cop-out; I do think "but it's Magic!" is an adequate explanation. These are magical transformations. A full-grown man turns into a rat and we don't ask where all the extra mass has gotten to. Another man turns into a dog and we don't ask how he generated all that hair. The Animagus transformation is not a chemical reaction, in which every molecule has to be accounted for. Why are wands, clothing, and glasses any harder to explain than Pettigrew's extra 180 pounds? Amy Z -------------------------------------------------- "He's friends with that dog," said Harry grimly. --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban (naturally-occurring Tom Swiftie) -------------------------------------------------- From sharlene_wong at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 12:30:19 2001 From: sharlene_wong at hotmail.com (sharlene_wong at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:30:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore - Cats - Portkey - Cloak Flint In-Reply-To: <9memvs+67lh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mg2sr+dkki@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24982 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > CMC wrote: > > >He still has a lot to explain to Harry - e.g., since the first > > question Harry asked of him was why Voldemort wanted > to kill him, it > makes sense that it will be Dumbledore who will > finally reveal this > (he promised to tell Harry when he was old enough). > > To nitpick, he didn't promise to tell; he told Harry that when he was > old enough he would know. I tend to think (and hope) Harry will come > to understand it not through an end-of-book summing-up chat with the > Big D but in some other way. I agree with you people since, I think that Dumbledore is only guiding Harry to help him find pieces of his past but Harry would in the end have to connect everything together to find out what happened on the night Voldemort suppposedly killed his parents. I bet Harry could do with one of those pensieves sooner or later. > Cindy also wrote: > > > The sequence was that Snape > > picks it up and brings it to the Shrieking Shack. Then Lupin puts > it > > into his pocket and takes it outside, where Lupin transforms. Then > > Lupin runs into the forest as a werewolf. So the Cloak is either > > with Lupin in the forest, or lying on the ground outside the > Whomping > > Willow. So why does Lupin say he "brought this from the Shrieking > > Shack" -- the one place the cloak could not possibly have been? > Lupin said he brought the cloak back from the Shreiking Shack, which he did--even if he did get a little bit side tracked in the process. But I also kind of wonder how it (the invisibility cloak) could not have been totally destroyed in the scuffle, which occured when Remus transformed into a werewolf and Sirius held him back. ******** pegasus200 From sharlene_wong at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 12:47:30 2001 From: sharlene_wong at hotmail.com (sharlene_wong at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:47:30 -0000 Subject: The Burrow (silly questions!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mg3t2+fouq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24983 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" wrote: > > >I was just wondering (although this topic might already have been > >covered, I'm very new to all this!) do the Weasleys live in an > >ordinary Muggle village? If they do how does their house, unusual as > >it is, not attract attention from the muggle neighbours? > > I get the feeling that the Weasley's live in a rural enough area for this > not to be a problem. Whatever neighbours they do have are far enough away > not to notice all the wizarding strangeness - otherwise, how could the kids > play Quidditch in a nearby field without being spotted? > I agree with this and I also would like to mention that they probably also have muggle repelling charms put around the area to keep muggles away or out of their sight (like how they keep muggles away from Hogwarts, the Quidditch world cup, the leaky cauldron and other magical places). The leaky cauldron is in the middle of London and no muggle ever noticed, so I guess they wouldn't have a hard time hiding a mutiple story house from muggles in a rural area. pegasus200 From sharlene_wong at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 13:24:05 2001 From: sharlene_wong at hotmail.com (sharlene_wong at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:24:05 -0000 Subject: Wands and Robes for Animagi -- Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: <9medib+cnjp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mg61l+f3vt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24984 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pengolodh_sc at y... wrote: > > > [snip] > > I do not have the books handy at the moment (they are due to arrive > > by automobile this weekend, along with my TV, 10ft of magazines, > > kitchen-utensils, etc. (courtesy of my parents)), and so cannot > > verify the following 100% myself, but as I recall, it is not a > given > > that Snape was using his wand at the moment, just that he was using > > *a* wand. Do werewolves keep their clothes with them when they > > go "hairy snout"? If not, it could be Professor Lupin's wand. It > > could also be Harry's wand, picked up after Harry fainted from the > > after-effects of the Dementors, or Ron's or Hermione's wand. Snape > > is a quick thinker, I suspect, and would not hesitate to grab the > > nearest wand. > > > > Best regards > > Christian Stub? > > Thanks, Christian. But I don't think Snape is using Lupin's wand, > because Pettigrew dived for Lupin's wand, Harry disarmed him, and the > wand flew high in the air and out of sight. > > Also, we know Snape had a wand when he woke up (as opposed to using > Harry's wand) because when Harry sees Snape conjuring stretchers for > himself and Hermione, Ron is already on a stretcher. It doesn't seem > logical that Snape would wake up and go searching in the bushes or > wherever for Lupin's wand. More likely is that Snape picks his own > wand up off the ground and starts using it, or he is using Ron's > wand, as you say. > > Finally, if Black does have a wand, why doesn't he ward off the > dementors? Either he doesn't know how (hardly seems likely) or he > can't pull it off with someone else's wand? > That's a good idea but I think there are probably some other reasons. He probably was exhausted after that scuffle with Lupin. Remeber when Harry says that a single anti-dementor lesson was more tiring than many quidditch practices. Or maybe since he was in Azkaban for all those years that he could not come up with a very happy thought to get rid of the dementors. > Oh, and while I'm grinding my teeth figuring out how everything winds > up where it does, can someone answer another question. At the end of > PoA, Lupin gives the Invisibility Cloak back to Harry, saying he > retrieved it from the Shrieking Shack. But earlier, JKR says Lupin > tucked it into his pocket in the Shrieking Shack. A mistake? The > cloak should have been lying on the ground outside the Willow. > > Cindy > > ----------------------- > "You should have realized," said Lupin quietly, "if Voldemort didn't > kill you, we would. Good-bye, Peter." Prizoner of Azkaban. Does the book mention that Lupin drop the cloak on the ground? I thought he carried it with him into the Forest when he transformed. Well as I said in an earlier reply, he did bring it from the Shrieking Shack, but he kinda got side tracked on the way. pegasus0580 aka pegasus200 aka Sharlene From sharlene_wong at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 13:36:08 2001 From: sharlene_wong at hotmail.com (sharlene_wong at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:36:08 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9mel2h+6sge@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mg6o8+1t0s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24985 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > > > > > > I think this would be a good time to start collecting > > > rumors/predictions about OoP, maybe in an FAQ. We could even > place > > > odds on them. It would be fun to see how right we are. IIRC, > some > > > people were much better at others at predicting GoF (I was wrong > > > about everything; I was sure Sirius was toast.) Any volunteers? > > > > > > --Joywitch > > > > Joywitch -- I'll go on record that the beloved figure who will die > is > > Hagrid. I will be shocked if it is someone else. Hagrid has > > outlived his usefulness. Well, almost, anyway. He has two more > jobs > > to do. First, he has to send an envoy to the giants. Then he has > to > > die protecting Dumbledore ("I'd trust Hagrid with my life"). > > > > No way will it be Lupin. There are too many cool plot twists that > > can involve Lupin. It just isn't Lupin's time -- yet. > > Marianne: > I'm not going to predict who will die in the next book because I > think I can make a case for at least a dozen people. My prediction > is that the new DADA professor, who reportedly will be female, is a > contemporary of Snape, Black and Lupin, and has(d) a romantic > involvement with one of them. > Maybe they are going to re-create what happened before when they were in school. Perhaps two (one of them is Snape the other would probably be Black since their rivalry tends to be so intense) of them fall in love with this new professor--assuming that the professor is female (even though one should assume nothing in JKR's world)--and re- creating that old rivalry that used to exist. One could only speculate as to what will happen in the next book and there are many possibilities. pegasus0580 (can't wait until the next book is out, and still reading the existing ones over and over until it is!) From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 13:56:12 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:56:12 -0000 Subject: The Animagus Clothing Cop-Out In-Reply-To: <002401c12f94$54a8d2e0$3190aecb@price> Message-ID: <9mg7ts+2d06@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24986 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Cindy: > > I'm still puzzling over this issue of what animagi take with them > when they transform. It seems they keep their robes. > > Animagi are common figures in fantasy novels (as I mused a couple >of months ago), and every time a fantasy author decides to toss a >couple into the plot, they hit that age-old problem of What To Do >About Their Clothes. Arguments about "but it's Magic!" aside, I >would argue that only the person's body should transform into the >animal, with any clothing, objects carried, etc. left hanging >ridiculously from the animal's body (picture a wolf crammed into >Lupin's patched robes) or falling to the ground, unable to be held >by a hoof or wing or paw. This might not be exactly the same thing, but there was a children's program on an English T.V. channel a few years back which was about a boy who transfomed into a dog at very inconvenient times (young British/Irish people might remember it was called "woof") When he transformed he would leave his clothes behind in a pile and when he changed back he was completely naked!!! Yes i know you might be thinking what kind of children's program is that? But I assure you it was very discreetly done!!!! Anyway this, I thought, was far more realistic than the "now you see them, now you dont" approach to human/animal transformations Just a thought!! -mary From sharlene_wong at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 14:02:07 2001 From: sharlene_wong at hotmail.com (sharlene_wong at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:02:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore fading; British-to-North-American In-Reply-To: <9m9uig+4rnp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mg88v+na2f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24987 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jennifer wrote: > > (re: Dumbledore's future) > > > 1) We could *think* he's dead for a book or 2, and then he > >returns in the last one (heh...or he disappears right before the > >climactic ending of #7 & returns saying "oh what happened?" > >with a sly grin). > > > > 2) He could actually be dead. Remember his association with > >Fawkes. It could be that he's really a LOT older than he is, but > >keeps dying & returning to the scene (interesting thought -- > >maybe he *IS* the Merlin). > > > > 3) He could die to protect Harry somewhere, in the style of his > >mother. Thus giving Harry protection (whether we are sure of > >that or not...I'm sure JKR can make us wonder up until the very > >last moment). > > > > 4) This one I think would be very interesting, but destroys the > > Harry-dying-at-end theory (although not necessarily the > > can't-really-continue-the-series-now-can-I part). Remember, > >when Harry first went into Dumbledore's office, Fawkes went > >poof and was reborn from his own ashes. Symbolic of > >something perhaps? I've briefly wondered if that means that > >Dumbledore will either die or retire or something...and Harry > >will take his place. Not necessarily as Hogwarts' > > headmaster (but that *would* be interesting), but they have > >said that Harry could be a very impressive wizard (look at the > >patronius he made at such a young age, for example)...and we > >all know that Dumbledore is a rather awesome wizard. Also > >goes along with the Order of the Phoenix title -- perhaps all of > >the masters went like this (don't remember what was said > >about the previous headmaster, except that he wouldn't have > > been so nice)? > > Thoughts? Comments? The more I think about it, the more I > >like #4...or something very similar to that. > > I'm intrigued by #2 - perhaps it is The Merlin who keeps coming > back in a variety of forms (Merlin, Gandalf, Dumbledore ... heck, > even Obi-wan ...) when he is (or *will be*, considering how long > Dumbledore's been around) most desperately needed. > I didn't quite understand #4; were you suggesting Harry will, in > some fashion, literally morph into a `new' Dumbledore? > My own feeling is that Dumbledore *is* going to die, most likely > in some epic struggle as Voldemort tries to re-assert his power, > and unlike Gandalf, Dumbledore won't reappear - he really will > be gone. Harry will ultimately be his successor (not immediately > - he needs a lot more training and hands-on experience) but I > think it's definitely in the cards. Oh, yes, and the other > person who will come into his own will be Neville. I like the > theory that he's blocked his abilities because of what happened > to his parents -- but back him into a corner and watch out! > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" > wrote: > > ...In the meantime, you should really check out the resources > >on the Lexicon. I added the "fairy lights" bit to the Strictly > >British page earlier this evening. > > > The Canadian versions (published by Raincoast Books) seem > to have come through with pretty much all the `Britishisms' > intact. > Most were easy enough to pick up from the context, but I'd never > have guessed the Knight Bus was a pun (it's been 20 years > since I was in Britain), and I couldn't figure out whether the > Knickerbocker Glory was a British version of a banana split or a > Big Mac. > Curiously, I thought sherbet lemons were something like > popsicles (triggered by the phrase "... Dumbledore, who was > unsticking two sherbet lemons...." [PS/SS] We used to buy > popsicles and then go outside and smash them against the > corner of the building to split them apart.) I did wonder why they > weren't melting all over his cloak.... > One thing I've noticed in the books -- JKR uses `dived' > as the past tense of `to dive' (CoS: `Through a haze of > rain and pain he dived for the shimmering, sneering face below > him and saw its eyes widen with fear: Malfoy thought Harry was > attacking him.") Is that a Britishism? I was taught the past > tense of `dive' is `dove'; i.e. "he dove for the > shimmering,..." etc. etc. > > ********************************** > But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing > her in a whole new light. "Hermione, Neville's right - you > *are* a girl..." > "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly. I also find possibility #2 interesting too. I remember reading somewhere that Merlin will come back when King Arthur comes back. And they call King Arthur the once and future king. Perhaps Harry is the 'Arthur' of JKR's world and he is there to lead the magical and muggles into a peaceful future. Well I'll get back to you about this since I have yet to finish the book (it's very long). pegasus200 aka pegasus0580 aka Sharlene From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Tue Aug 28 14:07:16 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:07:16 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix (mostly), was Re: Figg/Cats - Priori Incantatem..... In-Reply-To: <9me8qt+4fqj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mg8ik+l3at@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24988 > I think this would be a good time to start collecting > rumors/predictions about OoP, maybe in an FAQ. We could even place > odds on them. It would be fun to see how right we are. IIRC, some > people were much better at others at predicting GoF (I was wrong > about everything; I was sure Sirius was toast.) Any volunteers? > > --Joywitch I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the magical place that Harry will visit will be the Ministry of Magic, and I'm also going to guess that his visit there will have something to do with Percy Weasley, who will surely be struggling with divided loyalties all through OoP. At first ambition will cause him to come down on the side of the MoM, but after a wake-up call (and I'm really gonna risk my neck and say one of the twins dies!) he'll do the right thing and join the rest of the family in fighting Voldemort. I like the idea that the female DADA teacher we've been led to expect is Arabella Figg, but I also like the idea that she's a contemporary of the Marauders and a former girlfriend of one of them. (Probably Sirius.) Either way, I think that Harry will meet Mrs. Figg again and realize that she's a witch. Now that my neck is so far out that I look like a giraffe, I'm also going to add that at some point, but not necessarily in this book, Cho Chang will either die or join Voldemort; Neville will come into his own; Ron will be tricked into providing info to Voldemort; Dumbledore and Sirius will die.... Or, as often happens, I have no idea what I'm talking about and JKR will prove me wrong, as she so often has. Bente From sharlene_wong at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 14:21:55 2001 From: sharlene_wong at hotmail.com (sharlene_wong at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:21:55 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore fading? In-Reply-To: <9m8muj+4ho1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mg9e3+ij4g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24989 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > I couldnt help noticing (to my horror) that JKR kept stating that > Dumbledore looked weary and very old, especially in the chapter about > the pensieve (GoF) and the thought struck me... is she going to kill > him off. I think that would be the worst move possible as, in my > opinion, he is one character that make the stories amazing, his > relationship with Harry (and my own favourite thoery of him actually > being a blood relative of Harrys) I just dont think the books would > be the same without him, apart fromt the fact that i think the trauma > of his death might just be too much for me, making it nessecary for > me to get some sort of therapy!!!!! I heard JKR mention in an > interview that Harry might be getting a new pet at some stage and i > thought that I'd like him to get a phoenix... and then I thought > FAWKES!! Is he going to inherit Fawkes from Dumbledore?? (ahhh, its > just too much for me to take!!!) Who would believe Harry's stories > and be on hand for the ever raging battle with Voldermort!! > I JUST DONT KNOW ... I'd be grateful for anyone elses opinion on the > matter... I find that Dumbledore has a more deep relationship with Harry than many of the other characters in the book. He probably is a blood relative to Harry since he, like Lily had red hair. Perhaps he is like the Tom Riddle in the CoS, a memory, or perhaps he is the returning Merlin. There are too many twists to be able to say anything for certain. That's why I love reading these books! pegasus200 From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 14:29:53 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:29:53 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9mg6o8+1t0s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mg9t1+7udb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24990 ---- > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > > > > > > > > I think this would be a good time to start collecting > > > > rumors/predictions about OoP, maybe in an FAQ. We could even > > place > > > > odds on them. It would be fun to see how right we are. IIRC, > > some > > > > people were much better at others at predicting GoF (I was > wrong > > > > about everything; I was sure Sirius was toast.) Any volunteers? > > > > > > > > --Joywitch > > > I think this was mentioned in a page of rumours posted previously but I completely agree with it, as I myself considered the possibility during my 3rd reading of GoF...PERCY IS EVIL. JKR has never had Percy do anything chivalrous, he has never once done anything to protect anyone else except himself. He has always been caught up in himself and his power. In CoS his attention is caught by a book named "Prefects who gained Power" ... In PS/SS Prof. Quirrel said something that i think could come to Percy as a very good reason for going over to the ever growing Dark Side... "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it..." He also seemed very eager in GoF to defend Mr. Crouch Sr. when he dissmissed Winky, which may not seem like much but something Sirius said hit home with me later..."If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals."... If you apply this to Percy, he doesnt really seem like a very nice person to me! I'd love to know what people think of this. -mary :-) From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Aug 28 14:50:22 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:50:22 -0000 Subject: The Animagus Clothing Cop-Out In-Reply-To: <002401c12f94$54a8d2e0$3190aecb@price> Message-ID: <9mgb3e+kfuj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24991 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Cindy: > > I'm still puzzling over this issue of what animagi take with them > when they transform. It seems they keep their robes. > > Animagi are common figures in fantasy novels (as I mused a couple of months ago), and every time a fantasy author decides to toss a couple into the plot, they hit that age-old problem of What To Do About Their Clothes. Arguments about "but it's Magic!" aside, I would argue that only the person's body should transform into the animal, with any clothing, objects carried, etc. left hanging ridiculously from the animal's body (picture a wolf crammed into Lupin's patched robes) or falling to the ground, unable to be held by a hoof or wing or paw. The clothing issue is prevalent in superhero comicbooks (slightly OT Confession: I used to read DC and Marvel Comics). For example, why didn't Reed Richard's (Mr. Fantastic of the Fantastic Four) or Elastic Man (in the DC Comic world) clothes rip whenever they used their stretching power? Or why didn't Kitty Pryde's (of the X-Men) clothes remain behind whenever she used her power to go through solid objects? Or when Nightcrawler transports why does his clothes transport with him? Or why did the Atom's (DC Comics) clothes shrink and grow with him? Or why Clark Kent doesn't look obese since he's wearing his superman clothes and cape beneath his Clark Kent clothes? IIRC, in the Marvel Comics world, they explained the Reed Richards developed some sort of super-material with a loose molecular structure allowing more flexibility and durability and all the superheros (and super villians) use that material or some form of it for their super-clothing. Kitty Pryde's clothing dilemna was explained that because her clothes were in contact with her body, whenever she used her power that allowed her molecules to slip between other molecules her clothes affected by her power. So, I figure that since animagi clothes are in contact with their bodies (a la Kitty Pryde), the clothes are affected by the animagi power and is tranformed into the skin/shell of the animal figure. For example, Rita Skeeter's bug animagi had markings around it's eyes shaped like her eyeglasses. Milz From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 14:54:01 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:54:01 -0000 Subject: more predictions Message-ID: <9mgba9+3gvi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24992 Sorry but i forgot to include some more of my predictions for OoP, I got a little caught up in my other one about Percy!! But I think there will be some more characters coming to prominence in the next book, Cho Chang will, after being deeply hurt by the death of Cedric, do everything in her power to join the battle against Voldemort. She has already shown that she is a very capable flier, and owing to the fact that she is in Ravenclaw, must be a clever and competant witch. Viktor Krum seemed to prefer Hogwarts to Durmstrang and now with the inevitable death of Karkaroff, will return to assist with the war against V. (apart from the fact that he seems completely smitten with Hermione!!!) Fleur Delacour said to Harry before she left last year, that she wanted to get a job in England to improve her english, perhaps she too will help out in the war (but i have my doubts about her "It was ze Grindylows... zey attacked me" I mean come, on Lupin taught Harry's class how to deal with them in 3rd year, and if i remember correctly, Snape said that he thought that 1st years should be able to deal with them) Neville will suddenly reveal himself to be very magically gifted (i can hear sniggers!!!) but seriously he was strong enough to, accidently, make Flitwick zoom accross the room (small and all as he is, he is still larger than a cushion and undoubtedly would need a lot more strength to lift) My apologies for the long windedness of all of that but I just can't help myself once a get going!!! Thanks for bearing with me! -mary From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 15:07:31 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:07:31 -0000 Subject: What was the GoF error that caused JKR so much trouble? In-Reply-To: <9me2s2+6vsl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgc3j+s41l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24993 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > As I understand it, JKR was writing GoF and was about half through > when she noticed a plot problem. She went back and fixed it. It is > something other than the wand order. BBC Online/Newsround/Lizo's Interview with JKR Lizo: Last time we spoke you said there'd be a Weasley cousin. It didn't appear. You've deceived me! JKR: It got pulled. Sorry about that. What happened on Book Four, and one of the reasons why it was easily the most difficult to write, which had absolutely nothing to do with Harry being famous or me being famous, was that for the first time my plan fell down. I got halfway through and realised there was a huge gaping plot hole. The two ends just didn't meet. It was entirely my own fault: I should have had the sense to go through it very carefully before I started writing. So I had to do an enormous amount of unpicking and in the process I'm afraid the Weasley cousin disappeared. Entertainment Weekly, September 7, 2000/'Firestorm' Question: And what exactly was that gaping hole all about? JKR: I had to pull a character. There you go: "the phantom character of Harry Potter." She was a Weasley cousin [related to Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend]. She served the same function that Rita Skeeter [a sleazy investigative journalist] now serves. Rita was always going to be in the book, but I built her up, because I needed a kind of conduit for information outside school. Originally, this girl fulfilled this purpose. Hope this helps! Koinonia From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Aug 28 15:54:21 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:54:21 -0500 Subject: Harry Dying -- Predictions for OoP -- Percy References: <9m60up+650t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8BBEAD.6080305@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 24994 Hi all -- Back again from a short absence, so I'm replying to some things as long ago as last Friday. Bente13 at peoplepc.com wrote: > I don't think Harry will die in the books. Partly because I seem to > remember JKR saying something to that effect once (although I could > be wrong) but more importantly because it doesn't go along with the > tenor and theme of the books. They are childrens books, whether JKR > intended them as such when she wrote them or not (and I'm sure she > did, in one sense of the word at least; they're *about* children). > The fact that they appeal so strongly to adults too, is a fluke and a > result of good writing, but they're published and written for kids. Sorry -- I couldn't disagree more. JKR has said in countless interviews that she didn't write them with a target audience in mind. Others have responded eloquently as to how Harry's death could tie in very nicely with the tenor and theme of the series so I won't bother to chime in there. But, the fact that the protagonist was a child when the series began does not make these books "childrens' books." For one thing, he'll be an adult when the series is completed. Harry is also growing up, and in fact, in many senses, he will have grown up beyond his chronological age by the start of Book 5 (given the experiences of GoF). JKR has unequivocally stated that she is not deviating from the original plan she has for the series, and she expressed serious doubts as to whether young children should be reading the series (in other words, she has no plans to "tone it down" for benefit of younger readers). Incidentally, she's also been rather coy about whether Harry will die or not ... "what makes you think I won't kill Harry?" I personally don't believe that he will die at the end of Book 7, but it's not because I think JKR will keep the tone light because they're just childrens' books. It's also not because of her statements about not writing more than 7 books. I just don't have the gut feeling that Harry will die in the end. :--) Magpie wrote: <<>> Actually, she conceived the idea for HP in 1990, while stuck on a train from London to Manchester. She began writing & outlining at that point. Her daughter wasn't born until 1993. She did write in coffee shops & such while Jessica was napping in her pram, but the writing was well underway before Jessica was old enough to really hear stories. She also, as I understand it, refrained from reading any of the books to her daughter until she felt she was old enough (she caved a year earlier than she'd intended, reading the first one to her at age 6 rather than 7 as planned). PREDICTIONS FOR OOP -- Joywitch asked for predictions for OoP. I'm not volunteering to compile all the predictions into a FAQ or anything, but I'll throw my one big prediction into the hat. I'll eat a big helping of crow (not literally) if this doesn't pan out, but I want the glory of being the earliest and strongest proponent of this: FITD. FITD: Farmer in the Dell (Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, Harry likes no one or someone else ... and it's all one big mess) -- I grow more & more convinced of it everytime I think about it. She's hit us over the head with the fact that Ron likes Hermione. She's been so subtle about Hermione that no one can definitively say where her romantic feelings lie (that is, good arguments can be made for both Harry and Ron as recipient of her affections). What does R/H add to the plot? Not much as best I can see. What does FITD add to the plot, OTOH? Conflict. As Ebony said, conflict drives a plot. Yep. I won't predict much of anything else (deaths in particular). But, I'll hang my hat on FITD or some variant thereof. PERCY -- I see that I have to wave my banner "Percy Lovers Unite" again. Trina, where are you? :--) Percy is *not* evil. Percy has the potential to become a pawn of the Dark Side due to his ambitions, but I don't think so. That also does not make him evil per se. It just means he's vulnerable. So, however, is his brother Ron, who can't seem to resist the Imperius Curse and has his own set of ambitions. Ambition can be a good thing or a bad thing. If Percy's overriding characteristic was his ambition, why would he not have been a Slytherin? I also want to point out that Percy has done many good things. He is pompous and overly fond of Rules (reminds me of Molly). But, he is also IMO fundamentally good-hearted and fond of his family. He is heard proclaiming Ron's chess prowess at the Leaving Feast in PS/SS. He seems very concerned about Ginny's health in CoS. He is quite concerned for Ron after the 2nd Task in GoF. He's proud of their accomplishments and concerned for their welfare. Ron seems to believe that Percy's ambition would take precedence over familial ties, but Hermione takes Ron to task for thinking this. I know we've had this debate before, but I'll say again that IMO, Hermione is a far, far better judge of character than Ron. I think Percy will be sorely tested in OoP. He may even make a temporarily bad choice. But, I think he'll do the right thing in the end. I just hope it doesn't cost him his life (or that of someone else). Penny From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 28 16:01:37 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:01:37 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9mg9t1+7udb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgf91+4a2i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24995 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > I think this was mentioned in a page of rumours posted previously but > I completely agree with it, as I myself considered the possibility > during my 3rd reading of GoF...PERCY IS EVIL. JKR has never had > Percy do anything chivalrous, he has never once done anything to > protect anyone else except himself. He has always been caught up in > himself and his power. In CoS his attention is caught by a book > named "Prefects who gained Power" ... In PS/SS Prof. Quirrel said > something that i think could come to Percy as a very good reason for > going over to the ever growing Dark Side... "There is no good and > evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it..." > He also seemed very eager in GoF to defend Mr. Crouch Sr. when he > dissmissed Winky, which may not seem like much but something Sirius > said hit home with me later..."If you want to know what a man's like, > take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals."... > If you apply this to Percy, he doesnt really seem like a very nice > person to me! I'd love to know what people think of this. > -mary :-) Mary, I think Percy is scary, but not that scary. I don't see him going to the Dark side. I think his ambition will lead him to stick with Fudge vs. his Dad and Dumbledore and the rest of the Weasleys. Indeed, when Arthur gets fired in OoF (for telling people V has returned), Percy will see this as a real career opening and take his Dad's old job. Ouch! Or maybe he'll move up from cauldron bottoms to V spin doctor. Cindy ------ "I'll be in my room, making no noise and pretending I'm not there," said Harry tonelessly. CoS, Ch. 1 From g_keddle at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 16:49:17 2001 From: g_keddle at yahoo.com (g_keddle at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:49:17 -0000 Subject: D's Crouch question - Clothing cop-out In-Reply-To: <9mg18d+u399@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgi2d+36ld@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24996 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > These are magical transformations. A full-grown man turns into a rat > and we don't ask where all the extra mass has gotten to. Another man > turns into a dog and we don't ask how he generated all that hair. LOL Amy, you're so . . .logical. Of course you're right. Bet you have your O.W.L.S. in Transfiguration. > -------------------------------------------------- > "He's friends with that dog," said Harry grimly. > --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban > (naturally-occurring Tom Swiftie) > -------------------------------------------------- Oh, now this is lovely. My life is just not going to be the same now that I've been introduced to this addicting and extremely annoying (to other people) form of punsmanship. Sheesh, what I've been missing all these years, she said absently. Gert From bbennett at joymail.com Tue Aug 28 16:53:01 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:53:01 -0000 Subject: Harry Dying -- childrens' books - Percy In-Reply-To: <3B8BBEAD.6080305@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9mgi9d+eq90@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24997 > Bente13 at p... wrote: > > I don't think Harry will die in the books. Partly because I seem to remember JKR saying something to that effect once (although I could be wrong) but more importantly because it doesn't go along with the tenor and theme of the books. They are childrens books, whether JKR intended them as such when she wrote them or not (and I'm sure she did, in one sense of the word at least; they're *about* children).> Penny wrote: > Sorry -- I couldn't disagree more. But, the fact that the protagonist was a child when the series began does not make these books "childrens' books." I won't go into all the reasons why I also disagree that these are childrens' books (there's a thread that's a few months old that is full of my opinions :), but I will say you can't argue that these are childrens' book simply because they're about children. Just read Lord of the Flies. I know we've had this debate before, but I'll say again that IMO, Hermione is a far, far better judge of character than Ron. Except in the case of Lockhart :). Seriously, though, I agree that Percy is not a bad guy just because he can be difficult sometimes. You can't think a character is destined to fail or to give in to the "dark side" just because of flaws. Sometimes the flaws are the things that make you stronger. B From devika261 at aol.com Tue Aug 28 17:11:30 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:11:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Predictions for Order of the Phoenix Message-ID: <66.139a966d.28bd2ac2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24998 Marianne: I'm not going to predict who will die in the next book because I think I can make a case for at least a dozen people. My prediction is that the new DADA professor, who reportedly will be female, is a contemporary of Snape, Black and Lupin, and has(d) a romantic involvement with one of them. I'll second that prediction. And I'll also predict that the romantic involvement was with *at least* one of them. That could help explain a few things... From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Aug 28 17:54:24 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:54:24 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <32.19ffe1b5.28bc5630@aol.com> Message-ID: <9mglsg+4m2i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 24999 My predictions... Death predictions Book 5: a beloved adult friend of Ron, Harry and Hermione. Possibly Lupin or Hagrid. Book 6: Dumbledore, although Dumbledore's introductions in the Comic Relief-UK books might indicated he does survive Book 7. Book 7: Harry. Black and Snape will work together to rebuild the wizarding world's infra-structure. Percy His fate depends upon whether or not Dumbledore was able to inform and persuade other Ministry officials about Voldemort's rise and Fudge's cover-up. If Dumbledore is unsuccessful or marginally so, Percy could very well be in Azkaban for Crouch Sr's murder in book 5 (see message # 20037) or Percy could be Ministry jobless in book 5. If Dumbledore is successful in persuading the Ministry, Percy's job might remain in tact and he might even have a different position. Whatever happens to Percy job-wise, I suspect his loyality to his family will be tested. The Female DADA teacher I agree with who-ever said she'll have some sort of past with Black, Lupin, Snape, James and Lily. Who knows? Maybe she's the Florence whom Bertha saw kissing someone near the green houses. Or she might be one of Lily's school friends (perhaps Harry's godmother?). I even suspect that she'll have some sort of connection with the Order of the Phoenix. Which leads me.... Order of the Phoenix Lots of speculation about what this could possibly be and all the specualtion is very good. I think, however, the OoP is an ancient secret society that fights dark wizards. I like to think they aren't the "old crowd" of Dumbledore's, but a more covert group with a lot of legends about them and their mission, similar to the legends surrounding the Knights Templar or the Free Masons. I don't think that Dumbledore is a member of the OoP, but someone else at Hogwarts is and will be under suspicion of treachery throughout the book. Milz From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 18:06:12 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:06:12 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix: Red Flags a Flyin'! In-Reply-To: <9mg9t1+7udb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgmik+4akd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25000 > ---- > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think this would be a good time to start collecting > > > > > rumors/predictions about OoP, maybe in an FAQ. We could even > > > place > > > > > odds on them. It would be fun to see how right we are. > IIRC, > > > some > > > > > people were much better at others at predicting GoF (I was > > wrong > > > > > about everything; I was sure Sirius was toast.) Any > volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > --Joywitch I have only just recently arrived at this prediction, which came to me while listening in my car-- for the umpteenth time!-- to PoA. At the Christmas feast, Trelawney makes the observation that when thirteen persons sit to dine, the first to rise will be the first to die. Harry and Ron are the first two to rise, but JKR makes it explicit that they are uncertain who rose first. At that moment, I saw the proverbial red flag flying. Clever JKR disguises it by having Professor McGonagall make the famous "Tripe, Sibyl?" pun, but that is just like JKR. Adding to this her RL statements about an important character dying, I therefore predict that Ron will die, as I simply cannot conceive that it will be Harry. Haggridd From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 28 18:17:43 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:17:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore - Cats - Portkey - Cloak Flint In-Reply-To: <9memvs+67lh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgn87+3col@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25001 Amy, Room 101 is a British TV program in which guest stars name their pet peeves (anything or anyone),and the host then decides if the peeve is to be banished to "Room 101", never to be seen again. I'm with you on this one; having 3 moggies myself, I must chastize JKR for being so anti-cat. After all, don't myth, magic and moggies go together? I know it's under the wrong subject heading, but I want to add my bit re: Harry's fate by book 7. I don't think he'll die--too heavy for the underlying light-heartedness of the series--but I don't think it will be an eye-rolling happy-clappy ending for Harry either. Another gut feeling...I just can't elaborate on it, but I think a Brady Bunch- type ending would send most fans running away holding their heads and screaming, and JKR knows it. Just a thought... Mary Ann From entilzha at crosswinds.net Tue Aug 28 18:22:30 2001 From: entilzha at crosswinds.net (Daniel Siegmann) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:22:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Animagus Clothing Cop-Out In-Reply-To: <002401c12f94$54a8d2e0$3190aecb@price> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25002 Saying this is a cop-out is silly. This is magic we're talking about here. Animagus transformations are very difficult, and require a heck of a lot of practice. If a wizard can turn a mouse into a snuffbox, I don't see why it's so difficult to believe they can learn to transform their robes with themselves. Really, I think that early animagi would've made a point of developing that particular ability. In fact, I believe they transform whatever happens to be on their person at the moment of transformation - particularily what happens in be in the pockets of their robes. In other words, an animagus could easily take their wand when they transform. The question of "wouldn't this be the safest way to protect an item?" deserves some additional thought. This should not be much of a problem in the world of HP though. A powerful wizard could use their own transfiguration magic to reverse the transformation. Case in point - Black and Lupin transformed Pettigrew back into his human form (thanks to my roommate Ken for the reminder of that). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Draxon Varradami gandalf at optonline.net From linman6868 at aol.com Tue Aug 28 18:26:07 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:26:07 -0000 Subject: Cloak Flint In-Reply-To: <9memvs+67lh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgnnv+a3fk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25003 Amy Z wrote: > Cindy also wrote: > > The sequence was that Snape > > picks it up and brings it to the Shrieking Shack. Then Lupin puts > it > > into his pocket and takes it outside, where Lupin transforms. Then > > Lupin runs into the forest as a werewolf. So the Cloak is either > > with Lupin in the forest, or lying on the ground outside the > Whomping > > Willow. So why does Lupin say he "brought this from the Shrieking > > Shack" -- the one place the cloak could not possibly have been? > > You're right--it's a Flint. Good catch! Someone send Cindy a pack of > BB Every Flavor Beans, and a membership card for LOON! Oh, I don't know...I always assumed that after his frenzied run into the Forbidden Forest during the climax, Lupin found the sense to return to the Shrieking Shack, where he regained his human form and made his way back to Hogwarts Castle, and -- oh -- what's this in my pocket? Oh, it's an Invisibility Cloak...that's right, it's Harry's. Well, I'd better give it back to him, hadn't I? Ta-da! But give Cindy a L.O.O.N. membership anyway; Lord knows I would never pass the entrance exam.... Lisa I. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 19:07:35 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:07:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore - Cats - Portkey - Cloak Flint In-Reply-To: <9mg2sr+dkki@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgq5n+5ckd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25004 Sharlene wrote: > Lupin said he brought the cloak back from the Shreiking Shack, which > he did--even if he did get a little bit side tracked in the process. OK, I'm going to eat my words (not the bit about Cindy being inducted into LOON, though--I stand by that). Sharlene is right; he might well say this if he did exactly what is described in the book: took the cloak from the shack but didn't make good on getting it to Harry until after he'd spent a night doing heaven knows what in the forest. I think it's a little odd of him to phrase it this way, since Harry *saw* him put it in his pocket; the phrasing suggests that Lupin went and got it at another time. But it might not be a Flint. As for it not being wrecked in the tussle, it was in his pocket and therefore safely "went" wherever his clothes and wand "go" when he transforms (a la our Animagus discussion--though werewolf transformations are clearly different, e.g. they're painful). I also wouldn't be surprised if it were difficult to destroy an Invisibility Cloak. Amy Z --------------------------------------------- Professor Trelawney kept predicting Harry's death, which he found extremely annoying. -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------- From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Aug 28 19:12:34 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:12:34 -0000 Subject: Cloak Flint In-Reply-To: <9mgnnv+a3fk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgqf2+9iqk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25005 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > > Oh, I don't know...I always assumed that after his frenzied run into > the Forbidden Forest during the climax, Lupin found the sense to > return to the Shrieking Shack, where he regained his human form and > made his way back to Hogwarts Castle, and -- oh -- what's this in my > pocket? Oh, it's an Invisibility Cloak...that's right, it's > Harry's. Well, I'd better give it back to him, hadn't I? > > Ta-da! But give Cindy a L.O.O.N. membership anyway; Lord knows I > would never pass the entrance exam.... > > Lisa I. This is a tough crowd! :) But I don't think Lupin pulls himself together and returns to the Shrieking Shack as a werewolf. He says that if he takes the potion, he "keeps his mind when he transforms." If he doesn't take it, he turns into a full-fledged monster. Also, Dumbledore says Lupin is deep in the forest, unable to tell anyone anything. Now, maybe Lupin's memory of the evening is a little "cloudy" (groan), so he just gets it wrong. Actually, the Invisibility Cloak tells us something about werewolf transformation. It seems clear that Lupin keeps the cloak with him when he transforms. Otherwise, the Cloak would be on the ground, and would have been ripped to shreds as someone said earlier, or picked up by Snape. Cindy -------- "I'm not going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. PoA, Ch. 4 From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Tue Aug 28 19:18:47 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:18:47 -0000 Subject: Harry Dying -- childrens' books - Percy In-Reply-To: <9mgi9d+eq90@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgqqn+53kj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25006 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote: > > Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > > I don't think Harry will die in the books. Partly because I seem to > remember JKR saying something to that effect once (although I could > be wrong) but more importantly because it doesn't go along with the > tenor and theme of the books. They are childrens books, whether JKR > intended them as such when she wrote them or not (and I'm sure she > did, in one sense of the word at least; they're *about* children).> > > Penny wrote: > > Sorry -- I couldn't disagree more. But, the fact that the > protagonist was a child when the series began does not make these > books "childrens' books." > > I won't go into all the reasons why I also disagree that these are > childrens' books (there's a thread that's a few months old that is > full of my opinions :), but I will say you can't argue that these are > childrens' book simply because they're about children. Just read Lord > of the Flies. > > but it's not because I think JKR will keep the tone light because > they're just childrens' books. It's also not because of her > statements about not writing more than 7 books. I just don't have > the gut feeling that Harry will die in the end. :--) > > My opinion that Harry won't die also comes from my gut (a friend who > is quite well versed in the classics argues that the ending chapter > may very well be "The Man Who Died". I tend to put my hands over my > ears and hum loudly when she brings this up). But the 'Harry won't > die because these are for children' argument doesn't hold up if you > remember that lots of people die in lots of books that have been > written for children. > > Penny wrote: > >I know we've had this debate before, but I'll say again that IMO, > Hermione is a far, far better judge of character than Ron. > > Except in the case of Lockhart :). Seriously, though, I agree that > Percy is not a bad guy just because he can be difficult sometimes. > You can't think a character is destined to fail or to give in to > the "dark side" just because of flaws. Sometimes the flaws are the > things that make you stronger. > > B From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 19:27:43 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:27:43 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <66.139a966d.28bd2ac2@aol.com> Message-ID: <9mgrbf+5bap@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25007 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > Marianne: I'm not going to predict who will die in the next book because I > think I can make a case for at least a dozen people. My prediction > is that the new DADA professor, who reportedly will be female, is a > contemporary of Snape, Black and Lupin, and has(d) a romantic > involvement with one of them. > > I'll second that prediction. And I'll also predict that the >romantic involvement was with *at least* one of them. That could >help explain a few things... I still believe the reason that Black and Snape dislike each other has/had to do with a woman. Whether that is Mrs. Figg (Polyjuice or other potion)I don't know. Surely this woman chose Snape over Black :-) Koinonia From fourfuries at aol.com Tue Aug 28 19:37:05 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:37:05 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9mgrbf+5bap@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgrt1+etj1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25008 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Koinonia2 at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > Marianne: I'm not going to predict who will die in the next book > because I > > think I can make a case for at least a dozen people. My prediction > > is that the new DADA professor, who reportedly will be female, is a > > contemporary of Snape, Black and Lupin, and has(d) a romantic > > involvement with one of them. > > > > I'll second that prediction. And I'll also predict that the > >romantic involvement was with *at least* one of them. That could > >help explain a few things... > > > I still believe the reason that Black and Snape dislike each other > has/had to do with a woman. Whether that is Mrs. Figg (Polyjuice or > other potion)I don't know. Surely this woman chose Snape over > Black :-) > > Koinonia Not that my opinion bears any greater weight than that of any other, but: The liklihood of Harry dying is between slim and none (and slim just left town). JKR has been so terribly faithful in supporting her fan base that a Harry demise, heroic or otherwise, would be worse than telling 100 million children that there is no Santa Claus at hte same time. In other words, she would go down in history as one of the great literary "heels" of all time. I strongly suspect Mrs. Figg will be the next DADA instructor. BOys do not need a girl or any other reason to hate each other. Gotta go. 4FR From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 19:49:23 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:49:23 -0000 Subject: Harry Dying -- Predictions for OoP -- Percy In-Reply-To: <3B8BBEAD.6080305@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9mgsk3+b8ln@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25009 > Incidentally, she's also been rather coy about whether Harry will die or > not ... "what makes you think I won't kill Harry?" Also -- this is a new way of handling that subject. In early interviews, it was always "Will you ever do an eighth book?" And she'd answer something to the effect of - "Well, right now I really don't think so, but if I ever had the urge far in the future, and this is unlikely, but if I ever felt the need to, maybe." She also once answered "I think we should stop before we get to Harry Potter and the Midlife Crisis." If she's had the whole thing planned from the beginning, there would be no room for possible HP books after #7 if he died -- unless he fathers a child before his death and COME ON, do you really think that's going to happen? But who knows -- anything could happen, she could change her mind and decide to kill him off after all... m. From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Tue Aug 28 19:53:48 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:53:48 -0000 Subject: Harry Dying -- childrens' books - Percy In-Reply-To: <9mgi9d+eq90@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mgssc+khg6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25010 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote: > > > I won't go into all the reasons why I also disagree that these are > childrens' books (there's a thread that's a few months old that is > full of my opinions :), but I will say you can't argue that these are > childrens' book simply because they're about children. Just read Lord > of the Flies. I thought "Lord of the Flies" was a childrens book...? (And yes, I've read it. At school, at 11 or so.) The problem seems to lie in our perception of what a childrens book is. If it has to have a simple storyline, card-board one dimensional characters, easy language, etc., then, no, the Potter books are not childrens books. They're certainly better crafted, in language, plotting and characterization, than most childrens books are, but that doesn't mean they're not childrens books; it's just means they're *better* childrens books. They're what all childrens books should be, but unfortunately aren't. But this is one of those issues we'll just have to agree to disagree on, I expect... Bente From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Tue Aug 28 19:53:22 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:53:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Dying -- Predictions for OoP -- Percy References: <9mgsk3+b8ln@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <020e01c12ffb$2066f680$6c4a7bd5@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 25011 > > Also -- this is a new way of handling that subject. In early > interviews, it was always "Will you ever do an eighth book?" And > she'd answer something to the effect of - "Well, right now I really > don't think so, but if I ever had the urge far in the future, and > this is unlikely, but if I ever felt the need to, maybe." She also > once answered "I think we should stop before we get to Harry Potter > and the Midlife Crisis." If she's had the whole thing planned from > the beginning, there would be no room for possible HP books after #7 > if he died -- unless he fathers a child before his death and COME ON, > do you really think that's going to happen? I've not heard about this. Do you know where or when this was said ? Usually, if any of us are quoting what JKR has said in interviews or webchats, we say where we heard it from because it helps us separate rumour from fact. Michelle From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Tue Aug 28 19:59:42 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:59:42 -0400 Subject: Cloak Flint Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B053B7@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 25012 Cindy wrote: > > Actually, the Invisibility Cloak tells us something about werewolf > transformation. It seems clear that Lupin keeps the cloak with him > when he transforms. Otherwise, the Cloak would be on the ground, and > would have been ripped to shreds as someone said earlier, or picked > up by Snape. > I agree, Cindy. I reread the scene earlier today and in the description of his transformation, Rowling mentions several physical occurrences, but nothing about Lupin's robes tearing or falling off or anything. I believe that it is her mythos that creatures who change forms--regardless of the circumstances--do so while retaining any personal items they have on them. He does drop his wand, because Peter grabs it and then Harry Expelliarmuses it away from Peter. But I believe this is because Lupin actually dropped it. Note also that when Moody transfigures Draco into a ferret, there is no mention either of losing clothes or turning back and being naked--and trust me, that was public enough for it to have added significantly to Draco's embarrassment factor. Not to mention how much worse the other kids would have laughed. What I want to know is, how the heck can the Invisibility Cloak fit in Lupin's pocket? It's large enough to fit over three teenagers. Even granted that it's made of very thin material, as I envision it, cloaks are large. That's some deep pocket. Gwen From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 20:03:30 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:03:30 -0000 Subject: OotP, Harry Dying Message-ID: <9mgtei+eiq5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25013 I stand by my earlier post (some weeks back, I think) that the Order of the Phoenix is some sort of award like the OBE (Order of the British Empire) and not necessarily a secret society of dark wizard fighters (although it might be an award given to such people). I agree with those who are thinking about a Ron-likes-Hermione-who- likes-Harry-who-likes-Cho type chain (which will probably not be resolved in Book 5, IMO). The tension this could create, as well as the unthinking reactions this could produce from Ron the hothead are potentially quite inflammatory. I don't think Ron will be evil (nor Percy) but I do think he will act without thinking, and a temporary disaster will result (which Harry must avert). Percy's chief flaws could also produce a disaster. As for Trelawney's prediction of either Harry or Ron dying before the others at the table...I think folks are losing sight of the possibility that just because one of them dies, doesn't mean they will stay dead. I think it's entirely possible that at some point, Harry may temporarily die and will need to harrow hell (as many heroes do, Hercules, for example). Dumbledore says that no spell can bring someone back or even protect against the Avada Kedavra curse. But it wasn't a spell that saved Harry from Voldemort as a baby--it was his mother's love. Perhaps there is something similar that will be able to bring Harry back from a temporary death (music, phoenix tears, etc.). There are many possibilities, and JKR probably has been very careful about saying that a SPELL cannot do this, because it is possible that she has thought of something else that CAN. Just my two knuts... --Barb From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Aug 28 21:03:23 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:03:23 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9me8qt+4fqj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mh0ur+9lac@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25014 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > > I think this would be a good time to start collecting > rumors/predictions about OoP, maybe in an FAQ. We could even place > odds on them. It would be fun to see how right we are. IIRC, some > people were much better at others at predicting GoF (I was wrong > about everything; I was sure Sirius was toast.) Any volunteers?> The predictions I've read here are pretty wild, considering there are two books to come AFTER OoP; surely Ron, Dumbledore, Hagrid and Lupin are not all going to die in OoP? My predictions for OoP are much more mundane: *We will meet real full blooded giants *Harry will not date Cho, but she will continue to be as nice to him as she has been *Ron and Hermione will develop something more than a friendship *Dumbledore will not die (that will happen in book 7) *Sirius' name will not yet be cleared and he will have to continue to live in hiding *Percy will not join the Death Eaters but will get himself into a heap of trouble *Dudley's diet will have worked I'm sure I could come up with more, but this is what I have now. --jenny from ravenclaw ***************************************** From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 21:09:31 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:09:31 -0000 Subject: Harry Dying -- Predictions for OoP -- Percy In-Reply-To: <020e01c12ffb$2066f680$6c4a7bd5@tmeltcds> Message-ID: <9mh1ab+k4pf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25015 > I've not heard about this. Do you know where or when this was said ? > Usually, if any of us are quoting what JKR has said in interviews or > webchats, we say where we heard it from because it helps us separate > rumour from fact. Yeah, I can't find it at the moment, but I was going through all the interviews last night because I was bored. ALso, I was at the chat where she said the thing about the midlife crisis, and I thought it was so funny it always stuck with me. I"ll try and find those other ones again, tho. M. From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 21:22:56 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:22:56 -0000 Subject: Harry Dying -- Predictions for OoP -- Percy In-Reply-To: <020e01c12ffb$2066f680$6c4a7bd5@tmeltcds> Message-ID: <9mh23g+5650@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25016 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" wrote: > > > > Also -- this is a new way of handling that subject. In early > > interviews, it was always "Will you ever do an eighth book?" And > > she'd answer something to the effect of - "Well, right now I really > > don't think so, but if I ever had the urge far in the future, and > > this is unlikely, but if I ever felt the need to, maybe." She also > > once answered "I think we should stop before we get to Harry Potter > > and the Midlife Crisis." If she's had the whole thing planned from > > the beginning, there would be no room for possible HP books after #7 > > if he died -- unless he fathers a child before his death and COME ON, > > do you really think that's going to happen? > > I've not heard about this. Do you know where or when this was said ? > Usually, if any of us are quoting what JKR has said in interviews or > webchats, we say where we heard it from because it helps us separate > rumour from fact. >From a 2000 Scholastic chat: Do you think that you will write about Harry after he graduates from Hogwarts? Isn't there a University of Wizardry? JKR: No, there's no University for Wizards. At the moment I'm only planning to write seven Harry Potter books. I won't say "never," but I have no plans to write an eighth book. >From a late 2000 BN chat: Ms. Rowling, are you aware that more adults read the books than children? If so, might there not be a place for a series on an adult Harry Potter following the seventh book? JKR: I'm not sure whether it's true that more adults read the books than children. But in any case, I think I should stop before we get to Harry Potter and the Mid-Life Crisis! -- Now she's been doing the "I notice you're very confident he's not going to die!" thing. It just makes me wonder. The "I won't say 'never'" REALLY makes me wonder. M. From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Aug 28 21:23:43 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:23:43 -0000 Subject: Perfect Prefect Percy In-Reply-To: <3B8BBEAD.6080305@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9mh24v+87id@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25017 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > PERCY -- I see that I have to wave my banner "Percy Lovers Unite" again.> Penny, I'm with you here. I adore Percy. > I also want to point out that Percy has done many good things.> I agree. Percy cares very much for his family but he does not show it well. He ran right into the lake after the second task in GoF because he was clearly worried about Ron. He does love rules, as Penny just mentioned, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Percy just wants everything to go the way he thinks they are supposed to. He's simply not a jokester like the twins and he's high-strung. Lots of people are. He could use a little (well a lot, really) loosening up, but he is not dark wizard material, no matter how we disect him. Percy has never gone out of his way to hurt another person. He showed no evidence of being a bad boyfriend, and has never insulted someone else, the way we've seen Malfoy do. He is nice to Harry and gets along well with Hermione. Percy argues with his brothers the way brother do, not because he hates them or because he has gone bad inside, the way Tom Riddle. I still would like to know what happened to Penelope Clearwater, though. --jenny from ravenclaw **************************************** From djtarb at aol.com Tue Aug 28 22:21:57 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:21:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix Message-ID: <84.1a7b070c.28bd7385@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25018 In a message dated Tue, 28 Aug 2001 3:33:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Koinonia2 at hotmail.com writes: > > I still believe the reason that Black and Snape dislike each other > has/had to do with a woman. Whether that is Mrs. Figg (Polyjuice or > other potion)I don't know. Surely this woman chose Snape over > Black :-) > Or maybe she chose neither...what if she was Lily? Diane in PA From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Tue Aug 28 23:18:21 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:18:21 -0000 Subject: Percy(ok maybe he's not that evil...sorry!) Message-ID: <9mh8rt+qf3p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25019 AW, I feel all bad now for having written my argument about Percy turnig evil in the search for power ... sorry Penny and Jenny, you're obviously dedicated in the business of defending his character :P But I still have my suspisions!! -mary (i think i'm addicted to this message bord!! AAAAGGGHHH, it was bad enough when i was just addicted to HP books!!) From usergoogol at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 23:07:57 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:07:57 -0000 Subject: What exactly defines a Childrens Book, exactly? Message-ID: <9mh88d+6ken@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25020 I have no idea. So please, reply to this subject, or I will seem like a spammer. From john at walton.to Tue Aug 28 23:48:15 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:48:15 -0400 Subject: ADMIN: HPFGU's Future : List Elf Opportunities : List Etiquette & Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25021 Dear members, I've got a couple of things in this message. Thanks in advance for reading it. HPFGU'S FUTURE We're having some great responses from those folks who have hopped over to the database. Please, if you haven't gone there yet, or even if you have and have thought of something else, leave us a message. It's completely confidential, no member names or anything are shown. It's vitally important that you, the members, tell us where you want this group to go. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=1 0 You should also (if you haven't already) make your views known about where you think discussion about the upcoming movie should go in our Movie List Poll: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=729738 It's currently tied, so get voting if you haven't already! LIST ELF OPPORTUNITIES Do you have what it takes to be an elf? HPFGU is seeking new List Elves. List Elves assist new members of HPFGU in cooking, cleaning and list maintenance. Oh, yeah, and they welcome new members with a personal offlist email. List Elves should be the type of HP fanatics who can not go for more than a few hours without checking this group, and who are willing to spend far more time than they should thinking about HP-related activities. Like all elf positions, this one is without any sort of compensation except the spiritual satisfaction of being a good elf. However, there are some benefits: 1. You get to join the HPFGU-Moderators group and participate in all of the HPFGU policy-making discussions. In addition, this group frequently has other exciting discussions, such as a current exciting thread on Minerva McGonagall's bra size. 2. We can't think of any other benefits. Email the Mods @ hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com if interested, etc. Only those with names easily changed to end in -y should apply ::grin:: LIST ETIQUETTE & QUESTIONS Couple of things in this department, as usual. Could people please remember to trim posts they're replying to. In other words, if you're replying to a paragraph from a four-page post, trim the part that your email program copies from the old message so that only the pertinent bit is left. Also, for answers to list-based questions you might have, there's nowhere better than the VFAQ file -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm For more general HP facts, check out the Harry Potter Lexicon -- http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon And for the group's series of substantive FAQ-based essays based on replies to the group, head on over to the FAQ essay page at the Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ Cheers! __________________________________________ John Walton / Crazy Ivan HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47 @ john at walton.to YM johnwalton_crazyivan ModMail hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com READ OUR ADMIN FILES! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ __________________________________________ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 29 01:43:08 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:43:08 -0000 Subject: Just Call Me Voldemort (a G & S filk) Message-ID: <9mhhbc+peuc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25022 Just Call Me Voldemort (To the tune of When I Go Out of Door, from Gilbert and Sullivan's Patience) Dedicated to Lisa I. (a great G & S fan) AUTHOR'S NOTE: Lord Voldemort has reviewed his Evil Overlord performance evals (recently posted on HP4GU), and below outlines some of the changes he is planning to make for the 1995-96 fiscal year. But pending the release of Volume Five, he has little choice for now but to endure the jibes of his principal antagonist with "Patience." Enter LORD VOLDEMORT. Enter, from the opposite direction, HARRY POTTER VOLDEMORT Just call me Voldemort In my anti-Harry war I've made use of tactics At moments climatic That I in hindsight deplore With Potter's life at stake I delayed my giant snake And young Thomas Riddle Did naught else but piddle Which proved a costly mistake HARRY A most contrite Dark Lord A not-too-bright Dark Lord An "unloose-his-bonding and give-back-his-wanding Then fall-on-my-sword" Dark Lord VOLDEMORT If I've gained the upper hand Don't tempt me to grandstand I've given up fooling With ritual dueling Long speeches are henceforth banned Expository prose Is one of my "no-nos" For Overlord status I'll not gain for gratis If my mouth can't stay closed A quite reformed Dark Lord A well-informed Dark Lord A completely-believable-chillingly-evil-ble Overdrive Overlord HARRY A total dork Dark Lord A he'll-get-Borked Dark Lord A brash-filibustering-need-of-Ghostbustering Overboard Overlord VOLDEMORT A most intense Dark Lord A common sense Dark Lord A hail-good-fellow-and-Machiavellian Hit-every-chord Dark Lord HARRY A dim and dumb Dark Lord An immensely dense Dark Lord A stand-there-and-gloat-at-you-while-missing-the-boat-on-cue Overdone Overlord VOLDEMORT A Richard Three Dark Lord An Iago-y Dark Lord A Shakespearean-tragical-cutting-edge-magical Demagogue-y Dark Lord VOLDEMORT (simultaneous with below) Conceive me, if you can, As much more than just a man An eschatological-herpetological Post-Nietzsche Superman HARRY (simultaneous with above) Conceive him, if you can As a Sauron also-ran A pulp-fiction-villainy-hexing-and-killing-spree Fodder for Azkaban - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From nausicaa at atlantic.net Wed Aug 29 02:40:05 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:40:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore fading; British-to-North-American References: <9m9uig+4rnp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8C5605.6ED49C7@atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25023 katzefan at yahoo.com wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jennifer wrote: > > (re: Dumbledore's future) > > > 1) We could *think* he's dead for a book or 2, and then he > >returns in the last one (heh...or he disappears right before the > >climactic ending of #7 & returns saying "oh what happened?" > >with a sly grin). > > > > 2) He could actually be dead. Remember his association with > >Fawkes. It could be that he's really a LOT older than he is, but > >keeps dying & returning to the scene (interesting thought -- > >maybe he *IS* the Merlin). > > > > 3) He could die to protect Harry somewhere, in the style of his > >mother. Thus giving Harry protection (whether we are sure of > >that or not...I'm sure JKR can make us wonder up until the very > >last moment). > > > > 4) This one I think would be very interesting, but destroys the > > Harry-dying-at-end theory (although not necessarily the > > can't-really-continue-the-series-now-can-I part). Remember, > >when Harry first went into Dumbledore's office, Fawkes went > >poof and was reborn from his own ashes. Symbolic of > >something perhaps? I've briefly wondered if that means that > >Dumbledore will either die or retire or something...and Harry > >will take his place. Not necessarily as Hogwarts' > > headmaster (but that *would* be interesting), but they have > >said that Harry could be a very impressive wizard (look at the > >patronius he made at such a young age, for example)...and we > >all know that Dumbledore is a rather awesome wizard. Also > >goes along with the Order of the Phoenix title -- perhaps all of > >the masters went like this (don't remember what was said > >about the previous headmaster, except that he wouldn't have > > been so nice)? > > Thoughts? Comments? The more I think about it, the more I > >like #4...or something very similar to that. > I didn't quite understand #4; were you suggesting Harry will, in > some fashion, literally morph into a `new' Dumbledore? > My own feeling is that Dumbledore *is* going to die, most likely > in some epic struggle as Voldemort tries to re-assert his power, > and unlike Gandalf, Dumbledore won't reappear - he really will > be gone. Harry will ultimately be his successor (not immediately > - he needs a lot more training and hands-on experience) but I > think it's definitely in the cards. I didn't so much mean "morph" as be something like Heir of Dumbledore. The combo of Dumbledore's death and whatever battle with V and company could very easily produce a change to make him the "next" Dumbledore. It could be handled several different ways, but that's the general idea. Something like Harry in a trial by fire (phoenix again?) situation where he emerges changed somehow, and ready (or nearly so) to follow in D's footsteps. -- Jenny "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." From vderark at bccs.org Wed Aug 29 02:46:09 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:46:09 -0000 Subject: Okay, how's this for a quote? Message-ID: <9mhl1h+jod6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25024 The Detroit News had this to say about the upcoming Harry Potter film: The first film from the first book about an 11-year-old student wizard arrives in theaters Nov. 16 and it is merely the most highly anticipated motion picture since the advent of sound. They state that they expect HP to break all box office records, including those set by the Star Wars films. Yeehaw. Steve From gb7243 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 03:24:29 2001 From: gb7243 at yahoo.com (Jacqueline Brasen) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Room 101 In-Reply-To: <999026180.2023.12041.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010829032429.78931.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25025 >Amy, Room 101 is a British TV program in which guest stars name their >pet peeves (anything or anyone),and the host then decides if the >peeve is to be banished to "Room 101", never to be seen again. I'm >with you on this one; having 3 moggies myself, I must chastize JKR >for being so anti-cat. After all, don't myth, magic and moggies go >together? I have never seen this show since I live in the US, but when I read the previous quote about Room 101 I thought the reference was from 1984. In that book room 101 is where each person ends up facing there deepest fears. FYI, I love cats. Jackie B. ===== "There is a moment we all come to in our own time and our own space where all that we've done we can undo if our heart's in the right place" Yates/Brooks From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 29 04:04:36 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 04:04:36 -0000 Subject: Okay, how's this for a quote? In-Reply-To: <9mhl1h+jod6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mhpkk+8gas@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25026 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > The Detroit News had this to say about the upcoming Harry Potter film: > > The first film from the first book about an 11-year-old student > wizard arrives in theaters Nov. 16 and it is merely the most highly > anticipated motion picture since the advent of sound. It sounds like Lunchtime O'Booze, the mythical Fleet Street journalist renowned for his hyperbolic prose, is alive and well. - CMC From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 04:09:41 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:09:41 -0400 Subject: Percy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25027 >From: Penny & Bryce > >PERCY -- I see that I have to wave my banner "Percy Lovers Unite" >again. >Trina, where are you? :--) Percy is *not* evil. Percy has the >potential to become a pawn of the Dark Side due to his ambitions, but I >don't think so. I'd just like to say amen to this. From the actions that we've seen Percy take, there's no evidence of "evilness" that I can see. Yes, he was seen reading a book that said "Prefects Who Gained Power: a study of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers". That *could* be interpreted that Percy is power-hungry. However, I'd just like to note that the title didn't say "a study of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers as Dark Lords". "Gaining Power" can be interpreted in different ways. One can gain power without seeking it. I personally think that Percy was merely studying how to do his "job" as prefect better, although I'm sure others have different opinions. There's nothing wrong with ambition in my book, as long as it doesn't become an obsession and the methods used to gain the goal are not "evil". But of course, when a goal becomes an obsession and when methods become underhanded is open to interpretation. >I think Percy will be sorely tested in OoP. He may even make a >temporarily bad choice. But, I think he'll do the right thing in the >end. I just hope it doesn't cost him his life (or that of someone >else). And I'd also like to point out that ANY character in the HP books right now can be sorely tested as well. Nobody's perfect, they all have their achilles heel. I firmly believe that when presented with all the information, Percy will stand strongly on the side of the "right". I don't think he'd even consider joining Voldemort's side for a moment; he might be tricked into making a bad choice or forced but I don't believe he'd knowingly do it. ~Amber (Who responded just a tad late to Penny's "Percy Lovers Unite" bat signal in the sky...) ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Updated 8/17/01 "I am falling, I am fading, I am drowning, Help me to breathe..." - Boa, "Duvet" (From Serial Experiments Lain) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From katzefan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 06:35:35 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 06:35:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore - Cats - Portkey - Cloak Flint In-Reply-To: <9mgn87+3col@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mi2fn+itim@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25028 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., macloudt at y... wrote: > Amy, Room 101 is a British TV program in which guest stars >name their pet peeves (anything or anyone),and the host then >decides if the peeve is to be banished to "Room 101", never to >be seen again. I'm with you on this one; having 3 moggies >myself, I must chastize JKR for being so anti-cat. After all, don't >myth, magic and moggies go together? > > > Mary Ann Isn't Room 101 also the infamous room in George Orwell's novel 1984 in which political prisoners are forced to face their deepest terror? From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 29 08:42:23 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:42:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore - Cats - Portkey - Cloak Flint In-Reply-To: <9mi2fn+itim@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mi9tf+v67j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25029 > Isn't Room 101 also the infamous room in George Orwell's novel > 1984 in which political prisoners are forced to face their deepest > terror? I don't know if this is where the name of the show comes from (probably, but I couldn't prove it), but the point of the show is that the peeves are banished to this room, to the relief of the guest star. There is no indication that there is some poor soul in the show's Room 101, which is strictly a light-hearted comedy show. I know this is going off-topic, but I just wanted to help clear this up for those without access to British TV. A point about Percy. Yes, he is hungry for power, but, IMHO, he is too obessed with "good" rules to go over to the Dark Side knowingly. However, being so blinkered, he could quite easily be *conned* into working for V and/or hindering or even endangering Harry. Percy may have been a good student, but he strikes me as naive in the Big Bad World, being so inflexible and bound by rules, and therefore not able to think for himself. I agree with many of you (sorry, no names at hand) that Percy will have a part to play against Harry and even his family, but will snap out of it when he finally opens his eyes (and his brain) and realizes what he's doing. Thanks for listening! Mary Ann From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Wed Aug 29 09:07:31 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:07:31 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9mglsg+4m2i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mibcj+jrlb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25030 "Milz" wrote: > My predictions... I think ..the OoP is an ancient secret society that fights dark wizards. I like to think they aren't the "old crowd" of Dumbledore's, but a more covert group with a lot of legends about them and their mission, similar to the legends surrounding the Knights Templar or the Free Masons. I don't think that Dumbledore is a member of the OoP, but someone else at Hogwarts is <<< A slightly lighthearted reaction - maybe this is where a certain History of Magic techer comes into his own even though dead... Either by giving the clues to the nature and history of the Order or even being a survivor of the Order (which is why perhapos he is kept on the rolls?) Edis From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 08:56:00 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP, Harry Dying Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25031 >Harry may temporarily die and will need to harrow hell (as many >heroes do, Hercules, for example). I don't think the idea of temporary death fits in with JKR's philosophy. Furthermore, in the Christian tradition there is only one harrowing of hell, which is carried out by Christ in the three days between Good Friday and Easter Monday, and consists of bringing out the good who died before Christ's birth, and who would otherwise miss out on the chance of redemption. Suggesting that Harry can harrow hell, alliterative as it sounds, will I am afraid cause theological mayhem. Herakles and co do not in fact die, temporarily or otherwise, when they descend to the Underworld in Greek mythology, although the shades they meet there are not dissimilar to what appears out of the end of Voldemort's wand during the Priori Incantatem sequence - we are definitely told that whatever these things are, they are neither ghosts nor souls. Susan From katrina at gmx.at Wed Aug 29 09:49:29 2001 From: katrina at gmx.at (katrina at gmx.at) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:49:29 -0000 Subject: learning french by reading the french version: does someone have a word list? In-Reply-To: <20010827165104.7937.qmail@web20206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9midr9+n623@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25032 Hi, in the end, I might just read it and compile a list of words which I didn't know (and it's not those HP words but things like "storm" or "owl" which are slightly over the basic vocabulary) with translations into German (or English?). So if anyone opts to help with a chapter or two, your highly welcome. by now I'm app. on page ten (let's wait whether or not I'll give up). katrin From issybizz at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 10:13:06 2001 From: issybizz at hotmail.com (issybizz at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:13:06 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enamy of Harrys'? Message-ID: <9mif7i+39ta@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25033 After reading GoF, i have been left with an odd feeling that Draco Malfoy is only jealous of Harry Potter and his friends. He may have a very evil, dark wizard for a father but he does have a loving mother, who made Draco go to Hogwarts rather than Durmstrang, to which his father wanted him to go to. This inclines that his mothers' love for him is stronger than his fathers' powers. In GoF one of the main topics is second chances, "knows people can turn out OK, even if their families wern't...well...tha' respectable. some don' understand that." Even though Hagrid has a giantess for a mother (who suposedly likes to kill, "in there nature"). Hagrid is kind and many creatures respect him, almost as much as many students respect Dumbledore - ie, Norbert, Aragog and Buckbeck. I suspect that Hagrid is who is is because of his loving father who cared alot for him. So prehaps, due to Draco's loving mother, Draco may turn out to be good. (Crabby and Goyal, however, i am convinced they are pure evil). Draco has a father who hates mud-bloods and stands in arms with Voldemort. This is Dracos' father, not Draco himself. Draco may be nasty to others, (ie, Harry) because of the reputation his father has given him and so Draco tries to keep it. However, Draco is only walking in his father wake at the moment and maybe all he neds is a little push from someone, (i would love for that someone to be Ginny Weasley) so that he can walk for himself. Also, near the end of the book when voldemort re-calls all his followers to witness the death of Harry Potter, no Draco Malfroy is among them. Why? This must either mean that Draco is on a special mission from Voldermort or just isn't a true follower. I don't know but i would love to think that he wasn't there because Draco isn't a true follower. There's been speculation that Draco will help Harry in book 7 to fight evil. If it is true then it just proves that Draco will soon step out of his fathers' shaddow and become a good wizard. (I know this will never happen, but i would love for Draco to fall for Ginny (one year difference? who cares? Harry got into the triwizard championships being three years younger than allowed and endend up winning) and for Ginny to be the one who persuades Draco to help Harry. luv issy*** From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Wed Aug 29 10:38:38 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:38:38 -0000 Subject: Okay, how's this for a quote? In-Reply-To: <9mhl1h+jod6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9migne+onvr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25034 "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: (about tehn upcoming film) > The Detroit News .... state(s) that they expect HP to break all box office records, > including those set by the Star Wars films. Well maybe .... But one interesting moment (well almost the only really interesting moment for anyone who follows these debates) in the UK Channel 5 documentary 'J K Rowling and the Hogwarts Express' screened on Sunday) was the panel of 11/12 year old British HP fans who were rather dubious about going to see the film. They said it might spoil the pictures of the Potter world they had made for themselves... When asked for a message to send directly to Jo they drew a big poster saying MORE BOOKS PLEASE! Edis From djtarb at aol.com Wed Aug 29 12:11:43 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:11:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy Message-ID: <72.f0abfc2.28be35ff@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25035 In a message dated Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:15:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Amber ?" writes: > > And I'd also like to point out that ANY character in the HP books right now > can be sorely tested as well. Nobody's perfect, they all have their achilles > heel. I firmly believe that when presented with all the information, Percy > will stand strongly on the side of the "right". I don't think he'd even > consider joining Voldemort's side for a moment; he might be tricked into > making a bad choice or forced but I don't believe he'd knowingly do it. > Exactly! At least we know what Percy's Achilles heel is, that he is only secure when he knows all the rules and how to follow them and that he needs to feel he's in contol. How will Ron's desire to outshine his brothers and not be poor be used against him? What about Neville's deep fears and desire for revenge? Hermione is passionately devoted to her causes, with little perspective on context and shades of gray. And Harry could be tricked into fighting an unworthy battle, with disastrous results. Even our virtues (loyalty, bravery, love of beauty, generosity) can be turned against us by evildoers, and nobody is immune. JKR knows this, and I believe she'll write it. Diane in PA From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 29 12:12:16 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:12:16 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enamy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mif7i+39ta@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mim70+tbdi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25036 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote: > After reading GoF, i have been left with an odd feeling that > Draco Malfoy is only jealous of Harry Potter and his friends. He may > have a very evil, dark wizard for a father but he does have a loving > mother, who made Draco go to Hogwarts rather than Durmstrang, to > which his father wanted him to go to. This inclines that his mothers' > love for him is stronger than his fathers' powers. > > snip> So prehaps, due to Draco's loving > mother, Draco may turn out to be good. (Crabby and Goyal, however, i > am convinced they are pure evil). > > luv issy*** Well, I think JKR has really painted Draco solidly into the "evil" box. Consider his last few scenes in GoF. Cedric is dead, and Draco leads the Slytherins in refusing to acknowledge Harry's heroism. Then, he behaves badly again on the train home. No, I think Draco is just getting ready to start being overtly evil in the next books. I won't even entertain a death-bed conversion or some such. He's evil, all the way. Just one opinion. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 29 12:20:21 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:20:21 -0000 Subject: Wands and Robes for Animagi In-Reply-To: <3B8AF357.674ED4F4@texas.net> Message-ID: <9mimm5+jdjf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25037 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > Also, if Black had a wand, he could ward off the dementors without > > Harry's help. > > Using all those happy memories? Even if he knew the spell, I doubt he > had the inner reserves of happiness necessary to be the strength of the > Patronus. I personally think he just had been through too much, and the > appearance of the Dementors was the last straw, and he curled up into a > ball and gave up. > > --Amanda > Amanda, I guess you have a point. There can be serious doubt that Black knows how to generate a Patronus under the best of circumstances. The only magic we've seen him do involves Transfiguration (animagus, conjuring manacles, causing Pettigrew to reveal himself). Perhaps Black is a clever wizard, but he's not the greatest at DADA, which is Lupin's expertise. Cindy From g_keddle at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 12:20:42 2001 From: g_keddle at yahoo.com (g_keddle at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:20:42 -0000 Subject: Okay, how's this for a quote? In-Reply-To: <9migne+onvr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mimmq+15h2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25038 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote: > But one interesting moment (well almost the only really interesting > moment for anyone who follows these debates) in the UK Channel 5 > documentary 'J K Rowling and the Hogwarts Express' screened on > Sunday) was the panel of 11/12 year old British HP fans who were > rather dubious about going to see the film. They said it might spoil > the pictures of the Potter world they had made for themselves... > When asked for a message to send directly to Jo they drew a big > poster saying MORE BOOKS PLEASE! Not that I want the movie to flop, and I am rather excited about seeing it myself, but it does my heart good to read this. Somewhere in the world, there really are 12 year olds who would rather read the book!(sigh - my stepchildren are not among their number . . .)I know how they feel. I could kick myself for ever letting my husband talk me into watching the BBC productions of Lewis' Narnia series. I hated the child who played Lucy and now she's forever in my head. Gert ---- Tuesday. Hot. That lot from across the marsh have been at it again. (QTA) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 29 12:30:29 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:30:29 -0000 Subject: Another Sirius question Message-ID: <9min95+2tni@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25039 I'm still thinking about the end of PoA. Sirius changes into a dog and fights off the werewolf. Then he takes off after Pettigrew and runs into dementors. That much I get. But once he sees dementors, why does he change back into a man? He knows that dementors can't see, so why not stay a dog? In Azkaban, he once managed to slip past the dementors as a dog. Changing into a man seems like a losing proposition from the start. Any theories out there? Cindy ----------- "He was my mum and dad's best friend. He's a convicted murderer, but he's broken out of wizard prison and he's on the run. He likes to keep in touch with me, though ... keep up with my news ... check if I'm happy ... " PoA, Ch. 22. From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Wed Aug 29 12:41:10 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:41:10 -0000 Subject: Literature. Children and innocence Message-ID: <9mint7+77u9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25040 The `Independent' on 24 August had another look at what is it with children's literature breaking the boundaries to adult attention. Links to our discussions on the growth and experience and innocence themes here? Edis Why shouldn't the Booker prize go to a children's book? 'Most of the literature produced in Britain at the moment suffers from a fatal lack of ambition' By Natasha Walker See http://argument.independent.co.uk/regular_columnists/natasha_walter/st ory.jsp?story=90301 Text includes >>> The news that Philip Pullman's novel The Amber Spyglass has been included in the longlist for the Booker Prize this year has caused a frown of dismay to cross the faces of some commentators. That's because The Amber Spyglass, and the trilogy to which it belongs, has been marketed as children's literature from its first appearance. Where next, ask some. Will Harry Potter's next outing be included? Would The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, if published now, be eligible to join those Booker stalwarts, Beryl Bainbridge and Ian McEwan? And why not, ask others. Those fuzzy demarcations ? literary fiction, popular fiction, adult's literature, children's literature, teen fiction, faction, memoir-as-fiction ? are only lines drawn in the sand to try to reassure those who would like to keep literature in little boxes. As the recent surge in the popularity of so-called children's books such as Harry Potter or The Amber Spyglass suggests, people who like reading will read everything, and when they find something that shows imagination and energy they will fall on it greedily, even if they are, theoretically, 20 years too old for it. (Snip) What is so refreshing about Philip Pullman ? and also about his colleague in the renaissance of children's literature, J K Rowling ? is that he is crazily ambitious. Both of these writers want to create universes that are imagined down to the smallest detail and up to the grandest metaphor, and to take their protagonists on quests that go all the way from innocence to experience. (Snip) Above all, he doesn't ? as so many of the great writers for children did in the past ? try to keep children in a box of innocence. This was the imaginative failing of writers such as C S Lewis, J R R Tolkien, E Nesbit or Arthur Ransome. For them, childhood was a land of perfect innocence. Their characters lived in an eternal state of pre-adolescence. For Lucy and Edmund, for Frodo and Bilbo, there can be no worldly experience, no sexual knowledge. Such writers had no desire to reflect children's complexity. That's one reason why it would have felt out of place for such children's books to be judged alongside writers for adults. But writers such as Pullman or Rowling do allow their child protagonists to grow up. In the last Harry Potter book, Harry and Hermione begin to fancy other kids at school and to get caught up in the self-consciousness of adolescence. At the end of The Amber Spyglass, Pullman wholeheartedly celebrates sexual experience. In such books, childhood is not a separate, becalmed state, but is criss- crossed by knowledge and experience. (More text snipped) End citations. From warhound at accessus.net Wed Aug 29 15:00:43 2001 From: warhound at accessus.net (WarMaster) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:00:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes for Animagi Message-ID: <00a301c1309b$60900580$3992cecf@warhound> No: HPFGUIDX 25041 --- In HPforGrownups, Cindy wrote: >> I'm still puzzling over this issue of what animagi take with them >> when they transform. It seems they keep their robes. But we learn >> in PoA that when Pettigrew blew up the street, they >> found "bloodstained robes." Yet Pettigrew turns up 12 years later >> wearing robes. Then Christian said: >My guess is that the bloodstained robes could have been a spare >set carried with him for the express purpose of being left behind as >a clue. He could also have a spare set stashed away in a >convenient location. This is a good assumption (IMO) and very in keeping with Pettigrew's character. I was also thinking that animagi kept their robes and other things on their outer bodies which is incorporated into fur and markings. After all, in PS/SS on page 9 it says that Dumbledore turns to smile at a tabby, which had turned into "a rather severe-looking woman who was wearing square glasses exactly the shape of the markings the cat had around its eyes." However, it also says McGonagall was wearing emerald robes and the cat was not green, but that can be a simple change of color from green to a tabby-look. Beverly ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I had a dream about a motorcycle," said Harry, remembering suddenly. "It was flying." From warhound at accessus.net Wed Aug 29 15:11:55 2001 From: warhound at accessus.net (WarMaster) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:11:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and Robes for Animagi Message-ID: <00a601c1309c$f1921a40$3992cecf@warhound> No: HPFGUIDX 25042 Cindy wrote: >> I'm still puzzling over this issue of what animagi take with them >> when they transform. It seems they keep their robes. But we learn >> in PoA that when Pettigrew blew up the street, they >> found "bloodstained robes." Yet Pettigrew turns up 12 years later >> wearing robes. Then Christian said: >My guess is that the bloodstained robes could have been a spare >set carried with him for the express purpose of being left behind as >a clue. He could also have a spare set stashed away in a >convenient location. This is a good assumption, especially because it is so true to Pettigrew's character (the little rat). Personally, I always thought that when animagi transformed, their robes and outerwear changed into fur and markings. After all, McGonagall's glasses changed into spectacle shaped markings when she was in cat form. However, her robes were green but I'm thinking that for such an experienced witch, it would be a simple thing to change the color of her robes to a tabby color. Beverly ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I had a dream about a motorcycle," said Harry, remembering suddenly, "It was flying." From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 13:35:58 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:35:58 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger?? Message-ID: <9mir3u+82ch@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25043 Last night I was reading the begginning of CoS which I havnt read nearly as much as the others, and something struck me which I remember thinking was odd first time I read it but at that time didnt know what it meant... it says "Mrs Weasley was marching accross the yard, scattering chickens, and for a short, plump, kind-faced woman, it was remarkable how much she looked like a sbre-toothed tiger." (CoS chap2) Then it hit me, Is she an animagus? I know Hermione knows the register of animagi and didn't mention it to Harry or Ron, but as was discussed before when debating whether or not Dumbledore was an animagus, she was always under pressure when mentioning the register and so could easily slipped her mind. (or maybe she isn't registered?) JKR often mentions details like this that seem out of place, so that can recall them (or not) in a future plot. In OoP it might be neccessary for her to use this skill...maybe??? any thoughts? -Mary From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 13:54:07 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:54:07 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9mibcj+jrlb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mis5v+ijob@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25044 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote: > "Milz" wrote: > > My predictions... > > I think ..the OoP is an ancient secret society that fights dark > wizards. [snip] I don't think that Dumbledore is > a member of the OoP, but someone else at Hogwarts is > > A slightly lighthearted reaction - maybe this is where a certain > History of Magic techer comes into his own even though dead... > Either by giving the clues to the nature and history of the Order > or even being a survivor of the Order (which is why perhapos he is > kept on the rolls?) I find this highly doubtful. Frankly, Binns really annoys me. Dumbledore is really giving this class short shrift to have it taught by an instructor who seems to cover nothing that happened more recently than several hundred years earlier (focusing mostly on Goblin rebellions). He was very adamant about not wanting to give any information to the students about the Chamber of Secrets, even to denying its existence. As a ghost, he would be able to go anywhere in the school with no physical barriers to him, and he could easily have ascertained its location and contents. He reminds me mostly of a ghostly version of Fudge, wanting everything to be status quo. (He didn't change his daily routine even when he died!) The revolving-door DADA teachers are better than Binns! (Even Lockhart.) I hope Dumbledore gets a human in there to teach soon. A ghost teacher floating through the walls is only interesting or amusing for about the thirty seconds it takes for that to happen. --Barb From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 14:02:32 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:02:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25045 > Last night I was reading the begginning of CoS which I havnt read >nearly as much as the others, and something struck me which I >remember thinking was odd first time I read it but at that time didnt >know what it meant... it says "Mrs Weasley was marching accross the >yard, scattering chickens, and for a short, plump, kind-faced woman, >it was remarkable how much she looked like a sbre-toothed tiger." >(CoS chap2) Then it hit me, Is she an animagus? Um....guys? I think me might be getting a weeeee bit to trigger-happy when it comes to spotting animagi red flags. It's probably safe to assume that the vast majority of wizards are NOT unregistered animigi. And how many registered ones were in that book that Hermione found? Under ten, IIRC. And while I could possibly buy the theory of Dumbledore being a Pheonix (though I'd be very disappointed at Rowling over-using the Animagi plot device) Molly Weasley doesn't seem terribly likely. If she was registered, wouldn't Ron know? I don't see her as the law-breaking type. Or as the sabred-tooth tiger type, for that matter. Sorry, I've just been a little bothered by the rampant animagi-spotting that seems to have been going on lately. ^_^;; Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 14:08:15 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:08:15 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger?? In-Reply-To: <9mir3u+82ch@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mit0f+3abs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25046 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > Last night I was reading the begginning of CoS [snip] ...it > says "Mrs Weasley was marching accross the yard, scattering > chickens, and for a short, plump, kind-faced woman, it was > remarkable how much she looked like a sbre-toothed tiger." (CoS > chap2) Then it hit me, Is she an animagus? I know Hermione knows > the register of animagi and didn't mention it to Harry or Ron, but > [snip] she was always under pressure when mentioning the register > and so could easily slipped her mind. (or maybe she isn't > registered?) She could very well be on the list and Hermione didn't recognize the name (maybe listed under her maiden name). Let's say before she was married she was Molly Littleton. It could be that only first initials are used, as well, so the registry would have entries such as this: M. Littleton - tiger M. McGonagall - tabby cat etc. How would she associate such a thing with Molly Weasley? OTO...I think that once again, this is just JKR's way of comparing a human to an animal (such as the Snape/bat references) to paint a vivid picture in as few words as possible. It would be worthwhile to perhaps take note of all of the human/animal comparisons she makes. Surely ALL of these characters are not Animagi! --Barb From tabouli at unite.com.au Wed Aug 29 14:13:03 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:13:03 +1000 Subject: Cop-out, Harry's death, the foundering ship S/L, Minerva's bra, V Message-ID: <003c01c13094$d5fb6500$d7846fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 25047 Daniel: > Saying this is a cop-out is silly. This is magic we're talking about here. Animagus transformations are very difficult, and require a heck of a lot of practice. If a wizard can turn a mouse into a snuffbox, I don't see why it's so difficult to believe they can learn to transform their robes with themselves. Really, I think that early animagi would've made a point of developing that particular ability. Silly? Huh! I (being the origin of this thread) don't think it's silly at all! :-) For a start, animagus transformation must by definition come under the "but it's magic" clause in *any* series, and various other authors *have* dealt with the clothes and objects issue instead of conveniently ignoring it. For another thing, OK, animagus transformation is very difficult, but so, no doubt, was the initial discovery and brewing of Polyjuice Potion. Wouldn't early potion peddlers have developed a potion which changes the wizard's clothes to fit as well as the body, hence avoiding the problems Ron and Harry had when they had to steal bigger robes and Crabbe & Goyle's shoes (btw, didn't Malfoy and co get suspicious after this incident?)?? Admittedly Polyjuice is physically ingested, not holistically wand-waved, but hey, it's Magic after all... The people who reminded me about the spectacle patterns on Rita and McGonagall had a point, though. However, given that it's *just spectacles* that seem to have this property, I suspect this may point to something else. Once upon a time people were wondering why so many wizards need eyesight correction when they can regrow the bones of an entire arm overnight... could it be that there's more to wizard glasses than meets the eye...? Penny: > My opinion that Harry won't die also comes from my gut (a friend who > is quite well versed in the classics argues that the ending chapter > may very well be "The Man Who Died". Errgggh! Actually, I can in some ways see the beautiful irony of this, but I'm willing to lay bets that if JKR *did* call the last chapter "The Man Who Died", she would be playing games with us, trying to make us think it's Harry when it would in fact be someone else... Barb: > As for Trelawney's prediction of either Harry or Ron dying before the others at the table...I think folks are losing sight of the possibility that just because one of them dies, doesn't mean they will stay dead. Huh? Don't think I quite got this, but one thing I think we'll be seeing at some point is some significant characters dying and becoming ghosts. Oog, I can just see the ghost of Lupin floating about advising Harry. It'd be terribly useful, in a horrible sort of way. Diane: >> I still believe the reason that Black and Snape dislike each other >> has/had to do with a woman. Whether that is Mrs. Figg (Polyjuice or >> other potion)I don't know. Surely this woman chose Snape over >> Black :-) > Or maybe she chose neither...what if she was Lily? Ahaaa! Yes! A fellow investor in the Snape/Lily ship building project that never left Snape's drawing board! Vampire schmampire, there's one absolutely obvious factor which JKR *hasn't* yet exploited much that generates the sort of hatred Snape seems to have for Harry, and that is sexual jealousy. I can just see the greasy teenage Snape brewing up experimental love potions in a cupboard somewhere, desperate to sway her away from James the smart alec Quidditch star class clown. I vote James, though, not Sirius... imagine how Snape would have felt laying eyes on Harry for the first time in PS/SS and seeing not only Harry's striking resemblance to his father, Snape's arch-rival in love, but to add insult to injury, Lily's eyes gazing out of the face of the boy she died for... John Walton/Crazy Ivan: > You get to join the HPFGU-Moderators group and participate in all of the HPFGU policy-making discussions. In addition, this group frequently has other exciting discussions, such as a current exciting thread on Minerva McGonagall's bra size.< I always pictured Minerva as quite tall, somewhat gaunt and deceptively forbidding in appearance, with an ample bust (C-D cup?), but one severely buttressed and corsetted into line... Caius: > AUTHOR'S NOTE: Lord Voldemort has reviewed his Evil Overlord performance evals (recently posted on HP4GU), and below outlines some of the changes he is planning to make for the 1995-96 fiscal year. But pending the release of Volume Five, he has little choice for now but to endure the jibes of his principal antagonist with "Patience."< Hey, did I miss the big V's Evil Overlord performance evaluation on OT? Ssss. I find the end of GoF Voldemort almost cartoonish. Wouldn't the whole snake-man image kind of scare off some of his shallower followers? Does love of evil conquer all, even serpent-red eyes and a skeletal frame in spider-white?? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 14:19:12 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:19:12 -0000 Subject: Order of Phoenix - - Binns -- Employment at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9mis5v+ijob@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mitl0+4594@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25048 Someone wrote: > > I think ..the OoP is an ancient secret society that fights dark > > wizards. [snip] I don't think that Dumbledore is > > a member of the OoP, but someone else at Hogwarts is This was my first thought but I am finding myself doubting it now because it would be too predictable, too similar to the Jedi. I really think that Rowling, if she is wise and I think she is, will work hard to avoid Yoda and Jedi parallels. It is intriguing though. What else could it be? I suspect that Fawkes will become very important, and we are going to learn yet more about phoenixes and their magical powers. I would like to hazard a guess that the OoP does not yet exist-- but will soon. I also ocassionally wonder if the title is one big red herring... hehehehheheh. > I find this highly doubtful. Frankly, Binns really annoys me. > Dumbledore is really giving this class short shrift to have it taught > by an instructor who seems to cover nothing that happened more > recently than several hundred years earlier (focusing mostly on > Goblin rebellions). God, I agree with this! I really have to wonder about how Dumbledore makes some of his staffing decisions. IS it really that difficult to find teachers at Hogwarts?? Considering that Wizards do not have Universities, I would think that this would be very prestigious and competitive. I could see the difficulty of filling the DADA position-- people likely feel it is cursed or something-- but I would imagine that there would be many people who could admirably handle the History of Magic and really do it justice. BTW I think there must have been something about the chamber that made it impregnable even to ghosts. Binns wasn't the only ghost who failed to help in finding it. Suzanne From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 15:16:34 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:16:34 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #12 Results In-Reply-To: <9m6vig+mi5b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mj10i+sm70@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25049 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > > I actually found a "long lost page" from the Philosophers > Stone...it's a scene with Dumbledore after Harry has left the > classroom. I'm not sure why J. K. Rowling didn't keep it in the book, > but, what can you do? > > Here it is.... > > .....The door closed behind Harry and Dumbledore heaved a great sigh. > He hated lying to the boy, let alone to anyone. > > Besides, what he saw in The Mirror of Erised was his own business, > was it not? He sighed again. It would be lovely to share his sights > with someone else, though. He looked into the mirror now. > > He smiled at what he saw. He recognized the place, a small house > filled with cats. Warm light flowed through the windows. The sun was > a bright warm colour, like golden wheat. Dumbledore smiled. > > There was a woman sitting on her sofa, looking lovingly at him. She > waved, and he waved back, though he knew he could not see her. > > "Arabella Figg," he whispered. "to have you again would be divine." > > Blinking away tears, he waved to Arabella once more, and went out of > the room....... > > ?Jamieson > > ********************************************************************** Ahhh Jamieson - What a great finish to that chapter! But I've always thought he'd call her 'Bella. I'm hoping to see those two interact in Book 5!!! Denise (giving nicknames entirely too much thought) From kira at kc.rr.com Wed Aug 29 15:23:36 2001 From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:23:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Sirius question References: <9min95+2tni@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <016401c1309e$b565d3c0$a473f2d1@lisaannc> No: HPFGUIDX 25050 I don't think he had a choice. I believe he could not hold his animal form. He has some happy memories now, sending Harry the Firebolt, seeing Harry playing Quiditch, Harry telling him he wanted to come and live with him. With as many Dementors as was there sucking away his happy memories plus his tumultuous feelings due to the fact that his imprisonment/life on the run was about to come to an end, he could not handle the Dementors sucking all that away, thus he was not able to hold his animagus form. LA ----- Original Message ----- From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 7:30 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Sirius question But once he sees dementors, why does he change back into a man? He knows that dementors can't see, so why not stay a dog? In Azkaban, he once managed to slip past the dementors as a dog. Changing into a man seems like a losing proposition from the start. Any theories out there? Cindy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From banjoken at optonline.net Wed Aug 29 15:30:22 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:30:22 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9mis5v+ijob@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mj1qe+q61v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25051 > I find this highly doubtful. Frankly, Binns really annoys me. > Dumbledore is really giving this class short shrift to have it taught > by an instructor who seems to cover nothing that happened more > recently than several hundred years earlier (focusing mostly on > Goblin rebellions). I don't really think this is being fair to poor old prof. Binns :) We don't really know anything about that class. I'm quite sure he teaches much more than several hundred years ago, or just goblin rebellions. As we all know very well by now, just because we don't read about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen! Certainly Binns isn't the most exciting teacher at the school, but I feel confidant that he gives the students (the ones who stay awake, anyway) a very complete picture of magical history. Ken From bbennett at joymail.com Wed Aug 29 15:37:33 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:37:33 -0000 Subject: HP/children's literature In-Reply-To: <9mint7+77u9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mj27t+6vvn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25052 - In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > I thought "Lord of the Flies" was a children's book...? (And yes, I've read it. At school, at 11 or so.)> Although some consider Lord of the Flies a young adult book, I think most consider it an adult novel. I asked a children's librarian what she thought, and she said maybe she could buy that it's YA, but that it's definitely not a children's novel. 11 is quite young to have been assigned such a book; I didn't get it until high school. < The problem seems to lie in our perception of what a children's book is. Definitely. >If it has to have a simple storyline, card-board one dimensional characters, easy language, etc., then, no, the Potter books are not children's books. They're certainly better crafted, in language, plotting and characterization, than most children's books are, but that doesn't mean they're not children's books; it's just means they're *better* children's books.> You're not reading the right children's books! There's some brilliant children's lit out there - Holes (one of the best books I've ever picked up), all of Sharon Creech's work, 'Getting Near to Baby', just about every Newbery award winner ever... I think it takes more to turn out a well written children's book than a well written adult book, because a children's novel not only has to have wonderful characters and a good plot (all the things an adult novel needs), it has to be clear and concise enough to be understood by the target audience. Actually, the 'concise' thing is one part of part of why I don't think the Potter books can be classified as "children's books" - at 700 pages, GoF is longer than a lot of "adult" novels. I'm not arguing that HP shouldn't be read by children - far from it! I think the first book is excellent for readers starting around age 9 - but range that through adult, and consider increasing 'starting' the age some with each progressive book. This has nothing to do with the age of the characters, the amount of violence in the books, or if children's literature is "good enough" to be enjoyed by adults, but everything to do with the complexity of the series. The above books I mentioned are excellent, and are written to be fully comprehended by most of the people in their target audience (again, 8 or 9 - 12, although some may consider Holes YA). While Harry Potter can be read and enjoyed by people of all ages, the increasingly complicated subplots are not going to be *fully comprehended* by most people between the ages 9-12. And as the characters age, the situations are growing increasingly complex. A lot of the children who are now reading the HP series will read them in 10 years and interpret them differently. This is great, but I also think it's telling that these aren't expressly children's novels. The average 9-12 year old can read Sharon Creech's 'Walk Two Moons' and fully understand the writer's intentions. My age may allow me to appreciate this book a little differently that a younger reader, but I'm not interpreting it on a different level or understanding something the younger reader isn't. This isn't the case with Harry Potter - or with Philip Pullman's series, or I'd even argue with The Chronicles of Narnia. Just because a book features young characters or can teach something to/be read by /be enjoyed by/ a young reader doesn't make it a children's book. This isn't meant as ageism - to say that children are incapable or that children's literature isn't worthy reading. There are brilliant works of children's literature out there that adults could be getting a lot of and aren't because they somehow think they couldn't possibly learn anything from something written for a young reader to comprehend. Their loss, IMO. And there are of course many young readers who fully understand literature written above their age group. But again, this doesn't make these works children's novels. Penny added several points to this discussion in message 22500. > They're what all children's books should be, but unfortunately aren't. But this is one of those issues we'll just have to agree to disagree on, I expect...> Again, check out the children's section of your library. You're missing out on some great stuff. Best, B From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 15:52:02 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:52:02 -0000 Subject: interesting thought re: Mrs. Figg (cabbage smell) In-Reply-To: <008b01c12df7$5faf98c0$5b3770c2@c5s910j> Message-ID: <9mj332+hl5p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25053 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" wrote: > Steve wrote: > < admit that I never made this connection. What do you all think of it? > > <<"Also, isn't it peculiar that the smell of her house is described as > cabbage? And in the CS the finished Polyjuice potion smells like overcooked > cabbage. Could Arabella really be someone else in disguise?">> > > The cabbage smell also cropped up in the World Cup camping scene in >GoF, when one of the tents was described as having that cabbage >smell reminiscent of Mrs Figg's place. Was this because the tent >was really an all-mod-cons room made to look like a tent, and had >therefore required a spell related to the Polyjuice Potion to >achieve the illusion? > > Neil > ________________________________________ Cabbage & Polyjuice potion. And cats everywhere. Or could it be "cats" everywhere? Hmmm. How does one conceal a magical creature, exactly? Could she be breeding Kneazles, and needing some kind of cabbage-smelling potion to hide their true status from Muggles? Or could she be cross-breeding them? And on that note, where DID Crookshanks come from, exactly? We know that he had been around the Magical Menagerie for quite some time - but who gave him to the shop? Could it be that our Mrs. Figg is a top BKC (British Kneazle Club) breeder? From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 16:28:32 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:28:32 -0000 Subject: Okay, how's this for a quote? In-Reply-To: <9mhl1h+jod6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mj57g+91u3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25054 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > The Detroit News had this to say about the upcoming Harry Potter film: > > The first film from the first book about an 11-year-old student > wizard arrives in theaters Nov. 16 and it is merely the most highly > anticipated motion picture since the advent of sound. Yes, please! I'm trying to figure out exactly where I can go to see the movie opening day. I live in a metro area and am so worried that I will be denied opening day. Denise (trying to figure out if she should line up now) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 29 16:36:19 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:36:19 -0000 Subject: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <9mis5v+ijob@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mj5m3+3nuj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25055 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote: > > "Milz" wrote: maybe this is where a certain > > History of Magic techer comes into his own even though dead... > > Either by giving the clues to the nature and history of the Order > > or even being a survivor of the Order (which is why perhapos he is > > kept on the rolls?) > > I find this highly doubtful. He was very adamant about not wanting to give > any information to the students about the Chamber of Secrets, even to > denying its existence. As a ghost, he would be able to go anywhere > in the school with no physical barriers to him, and he could easily > have ascertained its location and contents. > > --Barb Binns, I agree, is mostly there as a send-up of the kind of teacher who can make an absolutely fascinating subject deadly dull. But I think you are being a little harder on him than neccessary. Even Myrtle had no idea where the chamber was, despite the fact that Ginny and the basilisk had been going in and out of her bathroom for months. The chamber must be impervious and undetectable to ghosts and House Elves, though not, fortunately, Phoenixes. As for Binns's statements to the class, perhaps he, like Harry, said nothing about the earlier incident in order to protect Hagrid. I doubt he believed Hagrid and his monster had anything to do with the Chamber. Probably once Hagrid's monster was implicated, Binns and most of the other adults around at the time decided the whole heir of Slytherin business had been a nonsensical rumour, spread by mischief- making students who wrote things like "Enemies of the Heir beware!" on the walls. Pippin From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 16:39:43 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:39:43 -0000 Subject: Order of Phoenix - - Binns -- Employment at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9mitl0+4594@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mj5sf+pgkv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25056 > It is intriguing though. What else could it be? I suspect that Fawkes > will become very important, and we are going to learn yet more about > phoenixes and their magical powers. I would like to hazard a guess > that the OoP does not yet exist-- but will soon. JKR also said once that Harry might be getting another pet, and then refused to say any more. My guess is he will inherit Fawkes when (and how I hate to say 'when') D. dies. m. From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 16:50:03 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:50:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Okay, how's this for a quote? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25057 >Yes, please! I'm trying to figure out exactly where I can go to see >the movie opening day. I live in a metro area and am so worried that >I will be denied opening day. Methinks this is getting a wee bit off-topic, but... Even the most popular movies rarely sell out before opening day. And most movie theaters will let you buy tickets several days in advance...sometimes even a week. So if you go in even a day early to buy your ticket, you should be fine. Make sure to get to the actual show EARLY, though....theaters who use moviephone, in particular, have a tendancy to oversell shows. Happened to me when I went to see Hannibal last Feb. :P Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Aug 29 16:51:02 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:51:02 -0000 Subject: Order of Phoenix - - Binns -- Employment at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9mitl0+4594@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mj6hm+5nql@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25058 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > Frankly, Binns really annoys me. > > Dumbledore is really giving this class short shrift to have it > taught by an instructor who seems to cover nothing that happened > > more recently than several hundred years earlier (focusing mostly on > > Goblin rebellions). > > God, I agree with this! I really have to wonder about how Dumbledore > makes some of his staffing decisions. IS it really that difficult to > find teachers at Hogwarts?? Considering that Wizards do not have > Universities, I would think that this would be very prestigious and > competitive. I could see the difficulty of filling the DADA position-- > people likely feel it is cursed or something-- but I would imagine > that there would be many people who could admirably handle the > History of Magic and really do it justice. > A read of your current news will tell you it is hard to get good teachers at any level at any time. Historians are a particularly dificult bunch, since an exciting one may not have all the attention to detail that scholarship deserves, while a fastidiously minutiae- conscious prof is almost bound to be boring. Moreover, JKR is painting a picture of the Hogwarts experience that must resonate with a large part of her readership. We have all had teachers that were deadly dull, or that no one could figure how they kept their jobs. Binns is a perfect caricature of such a teacher, so stuck in routine that he forgot to fall over when he died. If we liked every character, the wizarding world would not be a very realistic place. Finally, Hogwarts is a elementary/secondary school. As such, it may not pay very much. MoM jobs undoubtedly pay more, and private affairs pay best, just as in the muggle world. Our modern private schools in the U.S. pay less than public schools, though they still attract good teachers based on reputatuion and environment. BTW, Percy is a self-important git. His ultimate redemption may only come at the price of a horrible misjudgment. Ambition is a dangerous thing if not balanced by good judgement. 4FR From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 29 17:35:34 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:35:34 -0000 Subject: Order of Phoenix - - Binns -- Employment at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9mj6hm+5nql@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mj956+btu6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25059 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > --- > > Finally, Hogwarts is a elementary/secondary school. As such, it may > not pay very much. MoM jobs undoubtedly pay more, and private affairs > pay best, just as in the muggle world. Binns works just fine for me. He gets very little time in the books, as he seems to be just a stock character. Not every character can be a Lupin, I suppose. Also, it must be awfully tough to find someone for this position. It seems the professors covet DADA and maybe Transfiguration (McGonnagle is Deputy Headmistress and could presumably teach anything). Care of Magical Creatures seems less than desireable, and potions can't be at the top of the heap, if Snape would prefer DADA. Who'd want to do history when there are all of these fabulous curses, hexes, potions and transfigurations to be performed? But those MoM jobs do sound like great government jobs, don't they? Cindy --------- "Well, I am sorry to tell you that Professor Kettleburn, our Care of Magical Creatures teacher, retired at the end of last year in order to enjoy more time with his remaining limbs." PoA, Ch. 5. From Alyeskakc at aol.com Wed Aug 29 17:56:42 2001 From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Alyeskakc at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:56:42 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enamy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mif7i+39ta@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjacq+dnmq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25060 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote: > Also, near the end of the book when voldemort re-calls all his > followers to witness the death of Harry Potter, no Draco Malfroy is > among them. Why? This must either mean that Draco is on a special > mission from Voldermort or just isn't a true follower. I don't know > but i would love to think that he wasn't there because Draco isn't a true follower. > The main reason why Draco wasn't among the other DE's is because he can't Apperate. Also he doesn't have the Dark Mark on his arm yet so that Voldemort can call him. If you recall Snape told Fudge that when Voldy touches the Dark Mark the DE' were to Apperate to him immediately. Draco is still an underage wizard. It's my understanding that you can't take the Apperation exam until after you graduate. Also you can not Apperate to or from Hogwarts or the grounds. I think a special exception was made for the Triwazard Cup Portkey, but it was supposed to bring the winner directly to the front of the maze. IMO. We don't really know if he's a true believer or not. We do know that Crookshanks didn't attack him during PoA, so he can't be all bad now can he. Only time will tell if Draco turns out to be good or bad. Cheers, Kristin From cassandraclaire at mail.com Wed Aug 29 18:18:54 2001 From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:18:54 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enamy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjacq+dnmq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjbme+amco@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25061 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alyeskakc at a... wrote: > The main reason why Draco wasn't among the other DE's is because he > can't Apperate. Also he doesn't have the Dark Mark on his arm yet so > that Voldemort can call him. If you recall Snape told Fudge that when > Voldy touches the Dark Mark the DE' were to Apperate to him > immediately. > > Draco is still an underage wizard. It's my understanding that you > can't take the Apperation exam until after you graduate. Also you can > not Apperate to or from Hogwarts or the grounds. I think a special > exception was made for the Triwazard Cup Portkey, but it was supposed > to bring the winner directly to the front of the maze. IMO. > > We don't really know if he's a true believer or not. We do know that > Crookshanks didn't attack him during PoA, so he can't be all bad now > can he. Only time will tell if Draco turns out to be good or bad. > > Cheers, > > Kristin ------------------------------ Well, I wouldn't put it past Lucius to teach Draco Apparating early if he thought he could get some sinister use out of it. :) But I think Draco wasn't there because he's just a kid. He's not a Death Eater. In CoS when Harry and Ron posed as Crabbe and Goyle Draco made it quite clear that he didn't have the faintest idea what was going on, who the Heir of Slytherin was, or really, much of anything. His father's advice to him had been "Keep your head down, Draco" -- and that's all. From the available evidence I doubt Draco knows anything about the serious matters happening offstage -- Voldemort's return, etc. I'm still in the camp that thinks redemption is certainly possible, if not inevitable, for D. Malfoy. We have an already-presented redemption paradigm with Snape, who probably did much worse things as a Death Eater before he turned spy for Dumbledore than Draco has ever done. I don't like what Draco said to Harry and co on the train, but ecen if he's spitting out hateful words, he still hasn't *done* anything that would make him unreedeemable via a trial by fire. And Crookshanks and Sneakoscopes seem to like him. :) If JKR chooses not to redeem him, fine, but I'd be disappointed if a character we were first introduced to when he was eleven and who has occupied a place of some importance in the books turns out to have no depths to him at all. Cassie From sharlene_wong at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 18:39:27 2001 From: sharlene_wong at hotmail.com (sharlene_wong at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:39:27 -0000 Subject: Another Sirius question In-Reply-To: <9min95+2tni@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjcsv+a2m2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25062 > Cindy: > I'm still thinking about the end of PoA. Sirius changes into a dog > and fights off the werewolf. Then he takes off after Pettigrew and > runs into dementors. That much I get. > > But once he sees dementors, why does he change back into a man? He > knows that dementors can't see, so why not stay a dog? In Azkaban, > he once managed to slip past the dementors as a dog. Changing into > a man seems like a losing proposition from the start. > > Any theories out there? I think that when Pettigrew escaped Sirius doubts himself and knows that Peter will get away and his name will not be cleared. The dementors magnified this feeling of loss that they suck out alot of his happiness and powers away at that moment. I think he was forced to change back into a human by the dementors since wizards can do that too. (who knows what other abilities they have?--other than those mentioned by Lupin) Well, I've been working on this thought I had posted before about Dumbledore being Merlin. I kinda doubt it now since Merlin was murdered by Vivian aka the lady of the lake. He was buried in a tomb alive and spoke as long as there was air in it. Since he was half demon (his dad was a demon) he still existed but his body rotted away. And also Dumbledore had red hair when he was younger--Merlin had black hair. So there is a miniscule chance that Dumbledore could be Merlin. Unless Dumbledore is a Merlin's spirit within a new body but I'd doubt that JKR would put such a twist in her books. And it is also doubtful that he is Merlin's descendant since Merlin never had children. What lead me to kind of think in this direction is that King Arthur united all of Britain and I think Haryr is united all those who will fight against evil. I have also thought up of some more predictions as listed: (I am NOT, ABSOLUTELY NOT going to list who I think is going to die-- that's extremely depressing and I really hope Lupin or Hagrid will not die--I find that they are amoung my most favorite characters.) 1. Moaning Myrtle will be in the next book--maybe she will give Harry more hints that express her feelings towards him. 2. Krum will be back to be with Hermione. Ron would be extremely jealous--at who it's hard to tell :) 3. Sirius and Lupin will be back and Arabella Figg will teach DADA-- maybe a love triangle will be revealed. 4. Dudley's diet doesn't work and Aunt Petunia will not give up right away--another summer of starvation for Harry until the Weasleys pick him up. 5. They may meet Fleur again--maybe at Diagon Alley working at a store. 6. Fred and George start up their business and get a rough start but will make it. 7. Percy is put in a position where is to choose between his family and the MoM, but he will not become evil. > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > And on that note, where DID Crookshanks come from, exactly? We know > that he had been around the Magical Menagerie for quite some time - > but who gave him to the shop? Could it be that our Mrs. Figg is a > top BKC (British Kneazle Club) breeder? Maybe she has kneazles to prowl around the neighborhood as cats since Harry did mention in the SS/PS that one night it was unusual since there were no cats around. Kneazles can sense lying and can judge a person or other creatures better that--I think--people could. Maybe the kneazle at the Magical Menagerie was given for the purpose of protecting Harry at Hogwarts since many students want pets. Or perhaps the person who gave the kneazle knows that Hermione will know that it is a kneazle and buy it? Sharlene From hoshi_hime55 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 18:49:08 2001 From: hoshi_hime55 at hotmail.com (hoshi_hime55 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:49:08 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mif7i+39ta@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjdf4+lct3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25063 I really don't think that we have enough information to judge if Draco is evil or not. We know that, on the outside, he's mean, sarcastic and cold but does that really tell us that he's evil? We know is father is a Death Eater but that doesn't mean that Draco is one or wants to be. I've always looked at Draco as a good person who's been led to believe that mudbloods are evil by his Death Eater father. Even when we first met him in Madam Malkin's I liked him. I also think that Rowling will severely hurt her popularity if she makes Draco two dimensional and evil. I know that I would be annoyed. I think that you may be right with the Ginny thing. Draco will probably need to fall in love with someone that we like in order to make his becoming good more believable. It might not be Ginny though, maybe it's Hermione. I hope that doesn't happen; it would break my H/H ship! Since you mentioned Crabbe and Goyle, I'm going to say that I don't think that they're evil, just stupid. While it is possible to be both, I don't think that it's likely. If they did join the Death Eaters, it would just be because someone told them to, not because they were really evil. For some reason I can't see them actually being in Slytherin. They don't seem very ambitious, do they? I think that JKR placed them in Slytherin because she figured we wouldn't mind if they were in the "evil" house, even though they didn't fit the house's qualifications. Sincerely, Procyon White From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Wed Aug 29 19:07:12 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:07:12 -0000 Subject: HP/children's literature In-Reply-To: <9mj27t+6vvn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjeh0+qjtd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25064 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote: > - In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > >If it has to have a simple storyline, card-board one dimensional > characters, easy language, etc., then, no, the Potter books are not > children's books. They're certainly better crafted, in language, > plotting and characterization, than most children's books are, but > that doesn't mean they're not children's books; it's just means > they're *better* children's books.> > > You're not reading the right children's books! That may well be. I think I may not have made myself clear, though. I actually got the above from a post some months ago, which I went back and looked at, in which someone suggested that the Potter books are not childrens books because they're longer, the plots are more involved, the characters are better developed and the language is more difficult than in 'most' childrens books. My point was that if this were so, 90% of all romance novels would be childrens books. They're short, shallow, have one dimensional, stereotypical characters and a largely unimaginative plot, and many of them are atrociously badly written. But of course they're not childrens books, because they deal with adult subject matter. And subject matter, IMO, is what makes a book fall into a certain category. Not length, difficulty of language, number of subplots, well-roundedness of characters, etc. I certainly agree that the Potter books are not your usual childrens/young adult books, but at the same time I don't feel comfortable classifying them as adult books, either. They're about children/young adults, written from the POV of children/young adults, and deal with issues faced by children/young adults (as well as, of course, some issues faced by the rest of us). Maybe we need a new category...? Thanks for the reading list, by the way. I'll check it out! Bente (who will go to her grave swearing that Lord of the Flies is a childrens book.) From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 19:20:55 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:20:55 -0000 Subject: The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <9mjacq+dnmq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjfan+h98r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25065 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alyeskakc at a... wrote: > The main reason why Draco wasn't among the other DE's is because he > can't Apperate. Also he doesn't have the Dark Mark on his arm yet so > > Kristin How do we know that Draco doesn't carry the Dark Mark? I would bet my bottom Galleon that Draco is at least an untersturmfuerhrer in the "Voldemort Youth", or whatever they call the "Hitler Jugend" analogue in the wizarding world! Haggridd From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Wed Aug 29 19:24:01 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:24:01 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjdf4+lct3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjfgh+bm63@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25066 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hoshi_hime55 at h... wrote: > I really don't think that we have enough information to judge > if Draco is evil or not. Probably not, although he's certainly not a very nice kid, is he? >Even when we first met him in Madam Malkin's I liked him. I didn't. > I also think that Rowling will severely hurt her popularity if > she makes Draco two dimensional and evil. I know that I would be > annoyed. Don't you mean one dimensional...? Anyway, I don't see why he would have to be. Voldemort, I must admit, doesn't seem to have a whole lot of depth, although it's early days yet, and we did find out some things about him (as Riddle) in the memory sequence in CoS. We haven't seen a whole lot of him, though, whereas we've seen a lot more of Draco and will continue to do so, I'm sure. JKR can build him into a thoroughly satisfying multi dimensional evil character if she so chooses. Personally, I don't really care one way or another whether Draco ends up being good, evil or dead when it's all said and done, and JKR is certainly welcome to do with him whatever she wants, but I'd actually be more annoyed (not to mention disappointed) if all the characters ended up reformed and 'good' in the end. Bente From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Wed Aug 29 19:33:47 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:33:47 -0000 Subject: The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <9mjfan+h98r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjg2r+6782@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25067 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > I would bet > my bottom Galleon that Draco is at least an untersturmfuerhrer in the > "Voldemort Youth", or whatever they call the "Hitler Jugend" analogue > in the wizarding world! > > Haggridd Draco, like Harry, was a year old when Voldemort 'met his downfall', and we haven't seen any indications that there's been any kind of an organized movement since. Voldemort certainly hasn't been in any kind of position to lead one, and my guess is that the Death Eaters who avoided Azkaban made good and sure they didn't do anything to arouse suspicion. Their leader was gone, after all, and nobody lifted a finger to restore him. Apparently nobody else felt strong enough to take over where he left off, either. Draco might very well rise rapidly through the ranks of the Voldemort Jugend now that Voldemort is back; but so far I don't think such a thing has existed. Bente From v_hayrabedian at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 29 19:44:46 2001 From: v_hayrabedian at yahoo.co.uk (v_hayrabedian at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:44:46 -0000 Subject: The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <9mjfan+h98r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjgne+aan2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25068 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > How do we know that Draco doesn't carry the Dark Mark? I would bet > my bottom Galleon that Draco is at least an untersturmfuerhrer in the > "Voldemort Youth", or whatever they call the "Hitler Jugend" analogue > in the wizarding world! > > Haggridd Hi, First off, I'm a newbie, so 'hi' to everyone. :) Secondly -- I can't speak about the three forthcoming books, but if Draco is on the Quidditch team, then I would assume that physical examinations would be necessary. How, exactly, would he hide the dark mark from Madame Pomfrey? My own theory is that the kids at that age could certainly have sworn an oath to Voldemort, but it would be foolhardy for him to have marked everyone who showed an interest with his Mark. We know that he can trace them through it; it's not inconceiveable to think that someone like Dumbledore could have traced him through *them*. I'm guessing people had to earn the Dark mark and the right to call themselves Death eaters - much like the SS, actually. So the kiddies could be all hi ho about wanting to grow up to be Death Eaters, but until they had actually proved themselves - and their strength - nothing would be done to solidify their involvement. Another thought - if Snape was in Voldemort's inner circle (correct me if I'm wrong) when Voldemort 'died', just how young was he when he started spying? It'd take him several years to get to that position of power/trust, so the dates indicate that he, along with most of the other death eaters, had to join up when they were in their mid teens, presumably becoming fully-fledged Death eaters either upon graduation or when they turned 18. Which presents us with a child-army... not a nice thought. Vic who has been wondering about this for a while. From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Wed Aug 29 19:43:46 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:43:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25069 > -----Original Message----- > From: v_hayrabedian at yahoo.co.uk [mailto:v_hayrabedian at yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:45 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is > Draco Evil & a > true enemy of Harrys'?) > > > Real-To: v_hayrabedian at yahoo.co.uk > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > > How do we know that Draco doesn't carry the Dark Mark? I would bet > > my bottom Galleon that Draco is at least an untersturmfuerhrer in > the > > "Voldemort Youth", or whatever they call the "Hitler Jugend" > analogue > > in the wizarding world! > > > > Haggridd > Chronologically, it doesn't seem likely that Draco has the dark mark, given that Draco was no more than 26 months old when Voldemort was first defeated, and at least as of the end of Book 4, had only been *back* a few days. I get the impression that only Voldemort can mark a Death Eater, so it's not something Lucius could've done in his "absence". From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 20:05:45 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:05:45 -0000 Subject: Two Dimensional (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <9mjfgh+bm63@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjhup+sq7u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25070 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hoshi_hime55 at h... wrote: > > I also think that Rowling will severely hurt her popularity if > > she makes Draco two dimensional and evil. I know that I would be > > annoyed. > > > Don't you mean one dimensional...? > Bente No the use of "two dimensional" implies that the character is flat, just words on a (2-D) page, not like a three dimensional flesh and blood person. It does not mean two aspects as opposed to one. Haggridd From neilward at dircon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 20:12:56 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:12:56 +0100 Subject: Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger??/Animagi References: <9mir3u+82ch@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <005601c130c7$14687620$173770c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 25071 Mary said: << Last night I was reading the begginning of CoS which I havnt read nearly as much as the others, and something struck me which I remember thinking was odd first time I read it but at that time didnt know what it meant... it says "Mrs Weasley was marching accross the yard, scattering chickens, and for a short, plump, kind-faced woman, it was remarkable how much she looked like a sbre-toothed tiger." (CoS chap2) Then it hit me, Is she an animagus? >> Hmmm. I think that, in this case, the comparison of short, plump Molly with a sabre-toothed tiger was intended as a comic contrast. She is portrayed as a loving, "kind-faced" mother of seven children (and one husband), but with a ferocious streak that keeps them all in check. It seems a bit obvious to be a hint at an animagus, but then Rita Skeeter was a bit obvious, in retrospect. If Molly does turn out to be an animagus, she would join a growing throng of registered, unregistered, potential, proposed and wishful animagi populating this story, and I would have to declare the official register of animagi to be the laughing stock of the wizarding world. In any case, it would seem that the MoM can only spot animagi that are prepared to do their party piece in front of a large audience, wearing a big flashing sign on their head saying: "Look at me - I'm turning into an animal of some sort!" On a related point, as Harry and the others in his year move onto more advanced Transfiguration classes, the chances are, IMO, that at least one character will attempt to become an Animagus, and that we will get to witness the process, the evolution to another form. I find it hard to believe that Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs are the only Hogwarts' pupils to have attempted it while still at the school. Perhaps Harry will follow in James' hoofprints, or Hermione in McGonagall's pawprints? Maybe Percy is already doing night shifts as an owl? Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 20:22:44 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:22:44 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enamy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjbme+amco@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjiuk+7cjv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25072 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alyeskakc at a... wrote: > > > I'm still in the camp that thinks redemption is certainly possible, > if not inevitable, for D. Malfoy. We have an already-presented > redemption paradigm with Snape, who probably did much worse things > as a Death Eater before he turned spy for Dumbledore than Draco has > ever done. I don't like what Draco said to Harry and co on the > train, but even if he's spitting out hateful words, he still hasn't > *done* anything that would make him unreedeemable via a trial by > fire. While this was mostly true for the first and second books, he does manage to make some trouble in the third and fourth books. He gets Buckbeak sentenced to death because of overplaying the hippogriff "attack." This causes Hagrid a great deal of grief. (I think Malfoy and Hagrid will have a confrontation before Malfoy and Harry--and if something happens to Hagrid, as I think it will, it may very well be at the hands of Draco Malfoy, screaming self-defense or some such thing.) Then, in the fourth book, he plays informant to Rita Skeeter. This causes a LOT of trouble! He's also not too bright sometimes (or politic); at the beginning of CoS, Harry overhears Lucius telling his son (in the shop in Knockturn Alley) that he can't afford for people to hear him saying bad things about Harry Potter, who is regarded as a hero by most wizards (paraphrase). You'd think Draco Malfoy would understand that the same thing would surely apply to the late Cedric Diggory. He also doesn't have the sense to stand at the leaving feast and toast Harry with the others. His father would have done it; he's a PR man all the way. Thus, he's more of a troublemaker than evil so far, but with the comments he made on the train, he seems to be getting worse, not better. --Barb From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 20:21:49 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:21:49 -0000 Subject: Order of Phoenix / Employment /Potions In-Reply-To: <9mj956+btu6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjist+65tb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25073 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > It > seems the professors covet DADA and maybe Transfiguration (McGonnagle > is Deputy Headmistress and could presumably teach anything). Care of > Magical Creatures seems less than desireable, and potions can't be at > the top of the heap, if Snape would prefer DADA. Potions is one of the required subjects so obviously it is very important. Think Polyjuice Potion. How many times has that come into play? How about the potion for Lupin? I have a feeling potions is going to play an important role later on. IMO it *is* at the top of the heap. Also, when did Snape ever say he wanted the DADA job? Go back and read his speech in PoS. Sounds like someone who loves potions. Snape also didn't like it when Lockhart said he was going to whip up a Mandrake Restorative Draught. "Excuse me," said Snape icily. "But I believe I am the Potions master at this school." Koinonia From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 20:36:38 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:36:38 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjdf4+lct3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjjom+o4ud@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25075 One more thing to add to the discussion -- redeem Draco any time before the end of the 7th book, and you've taken away Harry's antithesis. Snape may be mean, but he's on the same side - or at least we think he is right now (I think he is). Crabbe and Goyle are too stupid to be the dark side of Hogwarts students. Without Malfoy causing trouble, it's just not as interesting. He hasn't done anything purely evil yet, but he did try to get Hagrid fired, spread lies (or mistruths) about Harry through the Skeeter rat (er, beetle), call Hermione a Mudblood (*repeatedly, knowing the reaction it stirs*), and other uncountable horrible things. Not pure evil, but definitely on the way; and even if he hasn't been trained to serve Voldemort (because Lucius wasn't sure he would return), he has been thoroughly schooled in the pureblood/racist way of thinking. That bias would take a miracle to reverse, and there's no way he could be "good" if he holds that prejudice. I really don't think the evil characters have to be flat -- I think it's more of a cop-out to redeem all of them. Then again, Malfoy and Harry are, as Dumbledore pointed out, like Snape and James. And Snape seems to have reformed, if he is nasty as all hell. JKR does a lot of parallels between ages, so perhaps this is one of them. Plus, the idea of Malfoy turning into a greasy, cantankerous Potions master that nobody likes is still appealing in its own way. later, m. From entilzha at crosswinds.net Wed Aug 29 20:43:10 2001 From: entilzha at crosswinds.net (Daniel Siegmann) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:43:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cop-out In-Reply-To: <003c01c13094$d5fb6500$d7846fcb@price> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25076 > -----Original Message----- > From: Tabouli [mailto:tabouli at unite.com.au] > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:13 AM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cop-out, Harry's death, the foundering ship > S/L, Minerva's bra, V > > Admittedly Polyjuice is physically ingested, not holistically > wand-waved, but hey, it's Magic after all... I think you've just answered your own question here. A potion can only affect what it touches. If a person drinks it, they are affected as a whole. It could only effect something besides the drinker's body if it was spilled on another object - and who knows what effect polyjuice potion would have on clothes? > The people who reminded me about the spectacle patterns on Rita > and McGonagall had a point, though. However, given that it's > *just spectacles* that seem to have this property, I suspect this > may point to something else. Once upon a time people were > wondering why so many wizards need eyesight correction when they > can regrow the bones of an entire arm overnight... could it be > that there's more to wizard glasses than meets the eye...? The spectacles left a mark, but that doesn't mean robes, along with whatever was in them, didn't transform as well. Wizards' glasses having special powers is certainly possible. However, I'd point out that poor eyesight is a genetic deficiency, while not having bones was not. Repair damage is easy enough, but it would be more difficult to correct genetic problems. OTOH, if laser eye surgery can do it, I'd think magic could too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Draxon Varradami gandalf at optonline.net From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 29 20:48:41 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:48:41 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enamy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjiuk+7cjv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjkf9+rqur@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25077 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote: > While this was mostly true for the first and second books, he does > manage to make some trouble in the third and fourth books. He gets > Buckbeak sentenced to death because of overplaying the > hippogriff "attack." This causes Hagrid a great deal of grief. (I > think Malfoy and Hagrid will have a confrontation before Malfoy and > Harry--and if something happens to Hagrid, as I think it will, it may > very well be at the hands of Draco Malfoy, screaming self-defense or > some such thing.) > > Then, in the fourth book, he plays informant to Rita Skeeter. This > causes a LOT of trouble! He's also not too bright sometimes (or > politic); at the beginning of CoS, Harry overhears Lucius telling his > son (in the shop in Knockturn Alley) that he can't afford for people > to hear him saying bad things about Harry Potter, who is regarded as > a hero by most wizards (paraphrase). You'd think Draco Malfoy would > understand that the same thing would surely apply to the late Cedric > Diggory. He also doesn't have the sense to stand at the leaving > feast and toast Harry with the others. His father would have done > it; he's a PR man all the way. > > Thus, he's more of a troublemaker than evil so far, but with the > comments he made on the train, he seems to be getting worse, not > better. > > --Barb And if we are going to catalogue the evil things Draco has done rather than said, I'd add his attempts to get Harry expelled, attempting to curse Harry in GoF when his back was turned (heaven only knows what kind of curse it was, but Moody sure didn't like it), impersonating a dementor to get Harry to fall off his broom and suffer serious injury or worse, and his cheating during the Quidditch matches (grabbing Harry's broom). No, Draco is an evil dark wizard in training, he's getting hands-on lessons from one of the best in the business Lucius, and I suppose he'll get what's coming. Cindy, wishing she had more dark wizards to despise From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 29 21:06:35 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:06:35 -0000 Subject: Order of Phoenix / Employment /Potions In-Reply-To: <9mjist+65tb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjlgr+3jfi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25078 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Koinonia2 at h... wrote: > --- > > Potions is one of the required subjects so obviously it is very > important. Think Polyjuice Potion. How many times has that come > into play? How about the potion for Lupin? I have a feeling potions > is going to play an important role later on. IMO it *is* at the top > of the heap. > > Also, when did Snape ever say he wanted the DADA job? Go back and > read his speech in PoS. Sounds like someone who loves potions. Snape > also didn't like it when Lockhart said he was going to whip up a > Mandrake Restorative Draught. > > "Excuse me," said Snape icily. "But I believe I am the Potions > master at this school." > > Koinonia Actually, the office politics among the teachers is kind of interesting. I think Snape talks about the importance of potions in PS/SS because, hey, what else is he going to say, particularly when he seems set on intimidating Harry from Day 1? Also, History of Magic is probably a required course (or our heroes would have dropped it by now), and it certainly isn't important as it is being taught now. Snape's remark to Lockhart is classic turf war stuff with the latest celebrity pretty-boy to join the staff. Now DADA, on the other hand, has to be a great job. Look at who Dumbledore has picked to fill it so far. Quirrell (I don't remember much about his past, frankly), Lockhart (a celebrity), Lupin (werewolf and very good in the classroom), and Moody (famous auror). If you're Snape, that's gotta hurt. True, we don't know if Snape wants the DADA job. He has been resentful toward all of the DADA teachers, particularly Lockhart. So I would "rank" the plum teaching positions as follows: DADA (half have been big names) Transfiguration (the two teachers we know about are crack wizards) Charms (this beats out potions because wizards seem to use charms daily, but they only brew potions now and then) Potions (limited usefulness because you need hours/days/weeks to brew it and get the benefits -- use a charm or transfigure and be done with it) Herbology (Sprout hasn't done much useful just yet) Divination ('nuff said) Arithmancy/Ancient Runes (what are these, anyway?) Muggle Studies (muggles get no respect!) Care of Magical Creatures (an unqualified wizard can teach this one) Just my quick thoughts. Cindy, who should be putting a lot more time into Charms From banjoken at optonline.net Wed Aug 29 21:08:02 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:08:02 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjjom+o4ud@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjlji+qd6s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25079 > Then again, Malfoy and Harry are, as Dumbledore pointed out, like > Snape and James. And Snape seems to have reformed, if he is nasty as > all hell. JKR does a lot of parallels between ages, so perhaps this > is one of them. Plus, the idea of Malfoy turning into a greasy, > cantankerous Potions master that nobody likes is still appealing in > its own way. I kind of like this idea. As Snape proved, you can be "reformed" and still not be a pleasant person. If Draco were to go over to Dumbledore's side, there's still no reason to assume that he and Harry will ever get along. I'm not sure where I stand on Draco yet. He's an interesting character, for sure, but I have no idea if he's truly evil, or will eventually turn away from his father. When I read, it's more of an "along for the ride" thing. I'm sure I'll enjoy it however it turns out! Ken From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Wed Aug 29 21:05:30 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:05:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enamy of Harrys'? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25080 Cindy wrote: > And if we are going to catalogue the evil things Draco has done > rather than said, I'd add his attempts to get Harry expelled, > attempting to curse Harry in GoF when his back was turned (heaven > only knows what kind of curse it was, but Moody sure didn't like it), > impersonating a dementor to get Harry to fall off his broom and > suffer serious injury or worse, and his cheating during the Quidditch > matches (grabbing Harry's broom). > 1. IIRC, every time that Draco's reported Harry, other than the time he sorta tricked him out of the dorms for the duel (which I think would've been less than an expulsion-level offense anyway), harry was breaking school rules - being in Hogsmeade without a permission slip, posession of an illegal dragon, etc. 2. At that close range, if you think that Draco missed cursing harry, rather than just throwing sparks over his shoulder to get his attention, then you must think his dueling skills have crashed since 2nd year. Also, we have NO idea what "Moody's" feelings were re: the curse itself, given that Barty Crouch had at least 20 reasons to hate Lucius Malfoy's son without even factoring that into the equation - he probably made Draco's life a living hell in DaDA class that year. 3. This is *hogwarts* - broken limbs (like the kind Harry had recieved only a year before when he fell from the sky) are pretty easy to heal - and I can't imagine any greater injury from falling off a broomstick - nothing a night in the hospital wing can't cure. It's certainly a less risky thing than sending a student to meet a full grown werewolf (oh, I do like sirius!) 4. I wish I had a copy of QTTA here - the bits about cheating being rampant and appreciated by the fans were terrifically funny. Oh, and if cheating is evil, then Ron must be evil too, for his attempts to copy off Hermione's homework... From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 21:23:59 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:23:59 -0000 Subject: Lily and Snape/Was Re: Cop-out In-Reply-To: <003c01c13094$d5fb6500$d7846fcb@price> Message-ID: <9mjmhf+j48k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25081 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Diane: > >> I still believe the reason that Black and Snape dislike each other > >> has/had to do with a woman. Whether that is Mrs. Figg (Polyjuice or > >> other potion)I don't know. Surely this woman chose Snape over > >> Black :-) > > Or maybe she chose neither...what if she was Lily? > > Ahaaa! Yes! A fellow investor in the Snape/Lily ship building >project that never left Snape's drawing board! Vampire schmampire, I must correct this! I am the one who said the reason Black and Snape hate each other was/is because of a woman. I don't believe it was Lily. I absolutely hate the idea of Snape and Lily. I just couldn't have anyone thinking I belonged to that group ;-) I have sworn off discussing this subject as I tend to get rather huffy when talking about it. I know I'm in the minority here but that's fine. I'm in the minority on the schmampire theory also. I'm use to it!!! Koinonia From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Aug 29 21:40:46 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:40:46 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enamy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mjngu+cnf2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25082 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > > 3. This is *hogwarts* - broken limbs (like the kind Harry had recieved only > a year before when he fell from the sky) are pretty easy to heal - and I > can't imagine any greater injury from falling off a broomstick - nothing a > night in the hospital wing can't cure. It's certainly a less risky thing > than sending a student to meet a full grown werewolf (oh, I do like sirius!) > > Good points! However, I think we have reason to think Harry could have died from falling off of his broom. Recall that in PoA, Harry does fall, but D slows him down. His teammates say "we thought you had died." And as we know, no spell will reverse death. Cindy From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 21:44:54 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:44:54 -0000 Subject: Order of Phoenix / Employment /Potions In-Reply-To: <9mjlgr+3jfi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjnom+otta@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25083 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Herbology (Sprout hasn't done much useful just yet) Actually, Sprout grew the mandrakes that revived Hermione, Penelope Clearwater and Colin Creevey after they were petrified by the basilisk. In fact, Sprout probably grows many of the things that Snape and Pomfrey need for their work. Some potions ingredients are from non-plant-life-forms (such as the eyes or livers or skins of various creatures) but quite a number seem to come from the plant life growing in the greenhouses. > Divination ('nuff said) > Arithmancy/Ancient Runes (what are these, anyway?) Arithmancy is a form of divination that is akin to numerology. It really shouldn't be a separate course from divination, except that JKR has said that she doesn't hold with astrology and such, so she may not have known this originally. Arithmancy probably sounded like a magical mathematics course to her. Ancient Runes is probably more useful, a way to learn to read dead or nearly dead languages which may the the sources for very old spells. > Muggle Studies (muggles get no respect!) This should be taught from day one and required of all the students! That it is an elective begun in the third year is mind-boggling! > Care of Magical Creatures (an unqualified wizard can teach this one) One caveat is that in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, there is a passage about owners of winged horses needing to place a charm on them to make it impossible for Muggles to detect the creatures (or it may be to make them look like regular horses--I don't have the book in front of me). These spells need to be renewed frequently. The students may not be learning these important spells since Hagrid does not have seven years of Hogwarts education under his belt. So perhaps someone more qualified should in fact be teaching this. These can't be the only creatures requiring spells for their care. --Barb From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 21:58:55 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:58:55 -0000 Subject: Ginny---- Hermione/McGonagal similarities Message-ID: <9mjoiv+obos@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25084 Ginny---I have always found JKR's portrayal of Ginny a bit strange, she always seems to act a lot younger than she is. You always think of her as being very young, when in fact she is only a year younger than Harry, Hermione and Ron. If you think about the way they act when they were her age it doesnt seem right; At the quidditch world cup, Mr Wealsey calls a halt to discussions at midnight {i think} because Ginny falls asleep at the table spilling her hot chocolate. She always seems to be the one that ends up crying. I wish i had my HP books with me right now but that would mean going all the way upstairs :P, so I cant come up with any more examples at the moment [sorry!!] Hermione/Mcgonagal similarities--- It struck me that there is a few mentions that Hermione bares a striking resemblance to prof. McGonagal at times (as i said i dont have my books with me at the moment!) IIRC, Ron was badgering Hermione about how she was getting to all her classes when her timetable had her down for things at the same time, and he stopped instantly when he noticed that she had a look very reminiscent of McGonagal...hmmm I know there are more examples but cant come up with them now (but whats the bets as soon as i post this I'll think of them!) They also seem to have quite similar personalities. Now this could just be JKR describing a character, but I like to think they might be blood relatives (however distant) after all she is muggle born and I'm sure there has to be a distant connection to a wizard/witch if there is magic in the blood. Maybe that even solves the question of how her parents got to Diagon Alley and platform 9 3/4. Well it might be far fetched but you never know these things! -Mary ;?) From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 22:23:25 2001 From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:23:25 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjkf9+rqur@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjq0t+qpa9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25085 Barb:While this was mostly true for the first and second books, he does manage to make some trouble in the third and fourth books. He gets Buckbeak sentenced to death because of overplaying the > > hippogriff "attack." This causes Hagrid a great deal of grief. (snip) He also doesn't have the sense to stand at the leaving > > feast and toast Harry with the others. His father would have done it; he's a PR man all the way. > > Thus, he's more of a troublemaker than evil so far, but with the > > comments he made on the train, he seems to be getting worse, not > > better." > > Yes, Lucius would have stood; I've always wondered why Draco didn't. Odd move on his part. I'm still of the opinion he's pretty clueless as to what his father's evil machinations are exactly, although I'm postive he knows his father *is* involved in evil machinations of some sort. He just doesn't know the details. Yes, Draco's done a lot of lousy things, but I maintain he hasn't done anything unforgivable yet, although not through lack of trying. I mean, we forgive Sirius, who, at about the same age, sent a fellow student on a wild goose chase which he *knew* ended at the lair of a werewolf who would have torn said student in half and splattered his entrails all over the walls. But Sirius is a Good Guy. Mostly because his plot was foiled, as Malfoy's usually are, and Snape survived. I'm not saying Draco will be redeemed, or even that he deserves to be, just that if JKR wanted to redeem him, she could. He hasn't done anything so bad that as a character, he is completely unforgivable and unsaveable. Cindy: " And if we are going to catalogue the evil things Draco has done rather than said, I'd add his attempts to get Harry expelled, > attempting to curse Harry in GoF when his back was turned (heaven > only knows what kind of curse it was, but Moody sure didn't like it" Again, above comment about Sirius applies. What Sirius did was just about as bad as anything Malfoy's done; getting a fellow student (possibly) killed is in my book worse than getting a fellow student (possibly) expelled. Also, we have no idea what Moody might have thought about Draco's attempt to curse Harry, since he was locked in a trunk at the time. All we know is Barty Crouch Jr's opinion on Draco's curse, and since he had every reason in the world to hate Draco and is to boot one of the most evil Death Eaters who ever lived, I'm not sure how much stock we want to put in his opinion. Cassandra From pbnesbit at msn.com Wed Aug 29 23:39:18 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:39:18 -0000 Subject: CoS Chapter 11--The Duelling Club Message-ID: <9mjuf6+q5dr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25086 Hi everyone, My apologies for posting this so late. Real Life got in the way. I couldn't come up with a lot of questions for these two chapters, so I've consolidated them. They're in the next post. Chapter 11--The Duelling Club Harry's arm bones are regrown overnight and after eating breakfast and being checked out one more time by Madam Pomfrey, he's cleared to leave. He goes to Gryffindor Tower, but Ron and Hermione aren't there. He goes to look for them, feeling slightly hurt that they weren't interested in his recovery. After some searching and a broad hint from Percy, Harry heads straight for Moaning Myrtle's bathroom, where he finds the two of them getting started on the Polyjuice Potion. Harry tells them about Dobby's visit and that Colin Creevy is now Petrified. They pose theories about how the monster is getting around the school. Ginny's really upset at the news that Colin has been attacked. Fred and George try to cheer her up by covering themselves with fur or boils and jumping out at her from behind things. Percy threatens to owl Molly because Ginny's having nightmares. In the meantime, students are stacking up on talismans, amulets, and the like. Neville tells everyone that he's doing so because they went for Filch first, and everyone knows he's almost a squib. The trio decide that Christmas would be the ideal time to try out the Potion. There's only one problem: it's only half-finished and they're going to have to steal the rest of the ingredients from Snape's private stock. Harry creates a diversion--a Filibuster firework--while Hermione steals the ingredients they need. Snape is *not* amused. Hermione informs them that the Potion will be ready in a fortnight. The next week, an announcement goes up about a duelling club. The trio decide to attend. Once there, they discover, much to their disgust, that Lockhart is running the club, assisted by Snape. After a demonstration, Snape and Lockhart break the group into pairs. He purposefully breaks up the 'dream team' and Harry is paired with Draco, Ron with Seamus, and Hermione with Milicent Bulstrode. After they cast their first spells, Lockhart decides they need to learn to block unfriendly spells. Lockhart suggests Neville and Justin Finch-Fletchley, but Snape volunteers Draco and Harry, then whispers something in Draco's ear. Draco yells 'Serpensortia' and a long, black snake appears and raises itself, ready to strike. Lockhart tries to get rid of it, but only makes it angrier. It goes for Justing, and is poised, ready to strike. Harry reacts without thinking and tells the snake 'leave him' in Parseltongue. This causes quite a stir and Ron and Hermione get Harry out of the room. The next day, Harry goes to the library in search of Justin so that he can explain what happened. He overhears some Hufflepuffs talking, all but accusing him of setting the snake on Justin as well as the attacks. Harry has a small run-in with them, then goes to look for Justin. He runs into Hagrid who's looking to speak with Dumbledore. Something's been killing the chickens. Harry goes to get his books, and trips over Justin, who, along with Nearly Headless Nick, has been Petrified. McGonagall comes out of her classroom, sees Harry, and takes him to see Dumbledore. From opaldragonfly at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 23:42:13 2001 From: opaldragonfly at yahoo.com (opaldragonfly at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:42:13 -0000 Subject: Lily and Snape/Was Re: Cop-out In-Reply-To: <9mjmhf+j48k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjukl+3556@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25087 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Koinonia2 at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > > Diane: > > >> I still believe the reason that Black and Snape dislike each > other > > >> has/had to do with a woman. Whether that is Mrs. Figg > (Polyjuice or > > >> other potion)I don't know. Surely this woman chose Snape over > > >> Black :-) > > > Or maybe she chose neither...what if she was Lily? > > > > Ahaaa! Yes! A fellow investor in the Snape/Lily ship building > >project that never left Snape's drawing board! Vampire schmampire, > > I must correct this! I am the one who said the reason Black and > Snape hate each other was/is because of a woman. I don't believe it > was Lily. I absolutely hate the idea of Snape and Lily. I just > couldn't have anyone thinking I belonged to that group ;-) I have > sworn off discussing this subject as I tend to get rather huffy when > talking about it. I know I'm in the minority here but that's fine. > I'm in the minority on the schmampire theory also. I'm use to it!!! > > Koinonia Yes--But what if James and Severus were both in love with Lily!?!? No there's another reason for Sevvie to resent James and his crew--if Lily chiose james! Opal Dragonfly From entilzha at crosswinds.net Wed Aug 29 23:47:29 2001 From: entilzha at crosswinds.net (Daniel Siegmann) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:47:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi In-Reply-To: <005601c130c7$14687620$173770c2@c5s910j> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25088 > -----Original Message----- > From: Neil Ward [mailto:neilward at dircon.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 4:13 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed > tiger??/Animagi > > On a related point, as Harry and the others in his year move onto more > advanced Transfiguration classes, the chances are, IMO, that at least one > character will attempt to become an Animagus, and that we will get to > witness the process, the evolution to another form. I find it hard to > believe that Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs are the only Hogwarts' pupils to > have attempted it while still at the school. Perhaps Harry will follow in > James' hoofprints, or Hermione in McGonagall's pawprints? Maybe Percy is > already doing night shifts as an owl? > > Neil I don't know. Certainly SOME students would attempt it, but not many, and many of those would likely fail. Really, if there's <10 registered animagi, then unless >99% of animagi are unregistered, there can't be very many of them. The question is why? Certainly it is difficult to learn, but so is apparation. I think part of the reason is that it's not something most people want to be bothered with. They ask themselves 'is it worth the effort', and come up with 'no'. Applying this logic to students, it can be seen why so few would attempt this. They have enough schoolwork to do, without trying something extra. Most probably figure that, if they want to become an animal for some reason, they can transfigure normally (and if they can't accomplish it through normal transfiguration, then there's no way they could be an animagus). I would accomplish much the same thing. Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs were not only exceptionally talented wizards (the latter two anyway), they had a very good reason for wanting to become animagi. A similar case is Harry learning the Patronus. There were other students with the talent to learn it (like Hermione), but he did it b/c he needed to protect himself from the dementors. I doubt more than a handful of students know that spell. I don't want to see Harry/Hermione become an animagus b/c it's been done to death. It has worked well for two books, but enough is enough. A new registered animagus might work, but I doubt we'll see one of those (certainly not Harry!). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Draxon Varradami gandalf at optonline.net From AAA143 at aol.com Thu Aug 30 00:06:43 2001 From: AAA143 at aol.com (AAA143 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:06:43 EDT Subject: Harry is NOT going to die. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25089 In a message dated 8/29/01 2:18:04 AM Central Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: << The liklihood of Harry dying is between slim and none (and slim just left town). JKR has been so terribly faithful in supporting her fan base that a Harry demise, heroic or otherwise, would be worse than telling 100 million children that there is no Santa Claus at hte same time. In other words, she would go down in history as one of the great literary "heels" of all time. >> Agreed. It would be a horrendous betrayal. - Paul From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Wed Aug 29 23:54:59 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:54:59 -0000 Subject: Two Dimensional (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <9mjhup+sq7u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mjvck+sjrv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25090 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hoshi_hime55 at h... wrote: > > > > > I also think that Rowling will severely hurt her popularity if > > > she makes Draco two dimensional and evil. I know that I would be > > > annoyed. > > > > > > Don't you mean one dimensional...? > > > Bente > > No the use of "two dimensional" implies that the character is flat, > just words on a (2-D) page, not like a three dimensional flesh and > blood person. It does not mean two aspects as opposed to one. > > Haggridd Ah! Thank you. I was thinking more along the lines of one-dimensional stock characters, as in all good or all evil. My point in any case was that Draco wouldn't have to be two-dimensional/flat/whatever, even if he were evil; some villains (albeit not Voldemort, as yet) have very well rounded personalities. Agreed? Bente From pbnesbit at msn.com Thu Aug 30 00:08:31 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:08:31 -0000 Subject: CoS Chapter 12--The Polyjuice Potion Message-ID: <9mk05v+s5gr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25091 Chapter 12--The Polyjuice Potion McGonagall tells Harry to wait and leaves to fetch Dumbledore. Harry looks around the office and sees some very interesting things. Besides portraits of past Headmasters and Headmistresses, there are some curious silver instruments whirring and emitting little puffs of smoke. He also notices the Sorting Hat. He tries it on again, and it tells him that he *would* have done well in Slytherin. Harry tells it it's wrong and puts it back on the shelf. He hears a gagging noise behind him and turns around. It's a bird, looking sick. As Harry watches, thinking all he needs on top of everything else is for the bird to die, it bursts into flames. Dumbledore enters looking solemn. Harry explains that he's sorry about the bird, he couldn't do anything to save it. Dumbledore explains that Fawkes is a phoenix and tells Harry a few of their attributes. As they watch, a chick emerges from the ashes. Hagrid barges in, insisting that Harry Didn't Do It. Dumbledore says he knows but he still wants to talk to Harry anyway. Dumbledore asks Harry if there's anything he wants to tell him. Harry thinks about Malfoy shouting 'You'll be next, Mudbloods!', about the Polyjuice Potion, about the disembodied voice and that Ron had told him that hearing voices no one else could hear was Not a Good Thing, and also about what everyone is saying about him. He answers that there's nothing he wants to tell him. The double attack turns what was just nervousness into real panic. Almost everyone decides to leave for Christmas, except the trio, Draco, and Crabbe and Goyle. Harry's glad, because he's tired of people skirting around him and acting as though he was the heir. Fred and George, as usual, make a joke about it. Percy is not amused and neither is Ginny. Christmas comes and with it Christmas dinner. Afterwards, Hermione hustles them out to prepare for the evening. She tells them that she's put a Sleeping Draught into two chocolate cakes. Harry and Ron are supposed to make sure Crabbe and Goyle find the cakes, eat them, and then they're supposed to snitch some hair and stash them where they won't interrupt the interogation of Draco Malfoy. The plan works beautifully until Hermione drinks her potion. She tells them to go on (they're wasting time) and they finally do. They encounter a few problems finding the way, then they don't know the password. They're saved by Draco, who gets them into the Slytherin common room. Draco retrieves a newspaper clipping which is very unflattering to Arthur Weasley. Ron and Harry force themselves to laugh. Draco puts down the Weasleys, Harry, and Colin. It's all Ron and Harry can do to keep from hitting him. With a little probing, they discover that whoever opened the Chamber 50 years ago was caught and expelled. They also find out that the Malfoys have Dark Arts stuff hidden in a secret chamber in the manor. Ron starts turning back into himself, as does Harry. They make a quick getaway back to Moaning Myrtle's loo, where they discover...at long last...that the hair Hermione got from Milicent was from a cat. Moaning Myrtle is *very* amused by this. Questions: 1. Did Snape know before the episode at the duelling club that Harry was a Parselmouth? 2. Why was Snape looking at Harry with '...a shrewd and calculating look' after he told the snake to mind it's manners? 3. Fred and George cover themselves with fur and boils and jump out at Ginny (who's upset that Colin's been Petrified). Do you think they're callous? 4. Do you think Fawkes's plumage colour is significant? 5. Why doesn't Harry tell Dumbledore what's bothering him? 6. Why was Harry in the Transfiguration corridor? Is that the way to Gryffindor Tower? 7. Who sets the passwords to the common rooms? Do you think the choice of passwords is important? Significant? DADA will be posted later. From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Aug 30 00:10:53 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:10:53 -0500 Subject: HP/children's literature -- Draco References: <9mj27t+6vvn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8D848D.6070305@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25092 Hi everyone -- Trying to distill points made by bbennett (hi, kindred spirit!) and bente on the issue of how to categorize the HP books. Hmm... I think Bente's point is that the books are *about* children (Harry is a child and the stories are told from his POV largely and they are about issues he faces); therefore, they are childrens' books. I, and I think Bbennett will agree, think that this doesn't account for the progression of the series. Yes, in PS/SS, Harry is a child. The story is told from his POV, and for the most part, the narrative is concerned with issues he, Ron and Hermione face in their first year at wizarding school. But, the later books get considerably more complex, and I don't think the subject matter is limited to the issues of a child. OoP brings the prospect of the entire wizarding world coming unhinged -- definitely the stage is set at the end of GoF for a war or serious conflict within the wizarding world. Children are affected by war, as are we all. But, Harry will be mature beyond his chronological years in OoP IMO. In any case, I'm not sure Bente's categorization fully reflects what is indisputably the case: in book 7, Harry & Co. will be full-fledged, no kidding adults. My argument is that GoF crosses the line for sure into adult literature, and the latter 3 books promise to go even further. So ... how to categorize the *series*. Is it a "childrens' series" just because Harry was 11 when it all started? Seems short-sighted to me. I *don't* think the NY Times gave this much consideration by relegating the entire series to the childrens' list, but I think they'll be forced to give it some thought later as their error becomes clear. Bottom line: If the categorization of literature as adult versus childrens hinges on the nature of the subject matter as Bente argues, I still don't think this places the HP series within the bounds of childrens' lit. DRACO -- Lots of good thoughts on Draco -- I see Heidi & Cassie jumping in with some good arguments for his possible redemption. I'd add a point that occurred to me as I was listening to CoS this afternoon. Another piece of evidence that Draco isn't in on his father's activities: he mistakes the Diary as Harry's in the hallway after Harry's bag splits open (before the Singing Valentine). If he knew what the diary was & that his father had planted it on Ginny, he wouldn't have been so keen to try & taunt Harry with it. I've been influenced by some of the great fanfic writers out there (so sue me!), but I too will be disappointed if Draco just turns out to be a flat cardboard cut-out of an evil git. That doesn't seem to fit into too well with Jo's overall messages IMO. Penny From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 00:21:46 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:21:46 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks" In-Reply-To: <9mjnom+otta@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mk0uq+hfm5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25093 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > Arithmancy/Ancient Runes (what are these, anyway?) > > Arithmancy is a form of divination that is akin to numerology. It > really shouldn't be a separate course from divination, except that > JKR has said that she doesn't hold with astrology and such, so she > may not have known this originally. Arithmancy probably sounded like > a magical mathematics course to her. Ancient Runes is probably more > useful, a way to learn to read dead or nearly dead languages which > may the the sources for very old spells. > > --Barb I always thought that Ancient Runs were those things that archaeologists dug up, with all the old buildings and stuff. Haggridd From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 30 00:51:03 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:51:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix References: <9mis5v+ijob@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8D8DF7.8C8EA5E0@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25094 Amanda chimes in. Off the top of my head, I think perhaps the Order of the Phoenix is an association of people whose wand cores contain phoenix feathers. Kind of like the Robert Johnson Society, but with some real purpose. --Amanda, an elder cousin of whose was a Robert Johnson From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Aug 30 00:54:49 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:54:49 -0000 Subject: CoS Chapter 12--The Polyjuice Potion In-Reply-To: <9mk05v+s5gr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mk2sp+8cs7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25095 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote: > > Questions: > > 1. Did Snape know before the episode at the duelling club that Harry > was a Parselmouth? I'd say that somehow he did. He sets Harry up in front of a group of people who will see his interaction with the snake and hear him speak Parselmouth. This is very similar to PoA, when Snape fills in for Lupin and procedes to teach Harry's class about werewolves. > 2. Why was Snape looking at Harry with '...a shrewd and calculating > look' after he told the snake to mind it's manners? Okay, maybe Snape only had a suspicion that Harry was a Parselmouth, and set him up to see what would happen. Then, when Harry reveals that he is indeed a Parselmouth, Snape gets that shrewd look because he now suspects that Harry has a bundle of interesting powers. > 3. Fred and George cover themselves with fur and boils and jump out > at Ginny (who's upset that Colin's been Petrified). Do you think > they're callous? No, I don't think their callous; they just don't realize that they're not helping her. I think they're treating her like they would treat any of their brothers. Plus, they probably realize that their actions get up Percy's nose, which is always a benefit in the twins' minds. > 4. Do you think Fawkes's plumage colour is significant? Red and gold - aren't they Gryffindor colors? > 5. Why doesn't Harry tell Dumbledore what's bothering him? He's insecure about a lot of things - he is still relatively new to the wizard world, everyone knows who he is as The Boy Who Lived, he hasn't had a supportive family life and no adults that have ever seemed to be truly interested in his welfare on a day-to-day basis, people already suspect him of being involved in the Petrifying incidents, and he strongly agrees with Ron that hearing voices no one else hears is not a good thing. > 6. Why was Harry in the Transfiguration corridor? Is that the way > to Gryffindor Tower? I have to admit that my mind shuts down sometimes when we're traveling from one room to another in Hogwarts. I've long ago given up trying to remember where everything is in relation to everything else. Good thing I'm not a student there - I'd probably be able to find Hagrid's hut, the greenhouses, the Forbidden Forest and the lake. Other than that, I'd be the Neville Longbottom of classroom location. > 7. Who sets the passwords to the common rooms? Do you think the > choice of passwords is important? Significant? Although I think the professor who is the head of the house can have some input, it seems that the Gryffindor portraits are able to set the passwords. The passwords used by Gryffindor when the Fat Lady's portrait is there were of a different nature than when Sir Cadogan filled in for her in PoA. And, IIRC, didn't Neville have a problem remembering the passwords in PoA because Cadogan kept changing them? Since the Slytherins are talking to a wall, it would seem that their head, Snape, would be the logical choice for password master. Marianne, thrilled not to come in on the discussion after 50 people have already answered them... From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 30 00:52:58 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:52:58 -0500 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB (you have to read it); was Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger?? References: Message-ID: <3B8D8E69.1167727F@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25096 Ali Wildgoose wrote: > Sorry, I've just been a little bothered by the rampant > animagi-spotting that seems to have been going on lately. Yaaaay, Ali! I hereby start a list. Everyone read down the list of Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit, add their own to the bottom, and pass it on. Animagus (Ali) Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) ...... --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 30 01:03:48 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:03:48 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjq0t+qpa9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mk3dk+k1m4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25097 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire73 at y... wrote: > > Yes, Draco's done a lot of lousy things, but I maintain he hasn't > done anything unforgivable yet, although not through lack of trying.> and Draco is definitely a character many of us like to discuss. Here, I must agree with Cassandra. Draco is one hell of a brat, but that's all he is. He's spoiled, sulky, arrogant and clearly jealous of Harry. No one can say he's made up of sugar and spice. However, I still stand by my (many) statements that Draco is nothing more than Daddy's shadow. We still have yet to see him stand on his own. Thinking he is better than Mudbloods is what he learned at home. Don't we all have beliefs that our parents have passed down to us? My parents have taught me quite well, but there are some opinions they have that I had to experience to disagree with. Draco has yet to do that. He has had no time to get to know someone like Hermione and other Muggle borns. Once again, I cannot say that I think Draco will have a change of heart; I just have to say that Draco needs to be in a position where he must make a decision with no help from Lucius. We've already seen what a sniveling coward he is (the Forbidden Forest in SS and the dementor in PoA). Trust me, people have a way of changing when Mom and Dad aren't there to be guides. If Draco decides to be a DE, I'd like to think that it will be through his own thinking, just as if he decides to be good. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************* From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 30 01:06:29 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:06:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Predictions for Order of the Phoenix References: <9mj1qe+q61v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8D9195.4CF32BBF@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25098 Someone said: > > I find this highly doubtful. Frankly, Binns really annoys me. > Dumbledore is really giving this class short shrift to have it taught > by an instructor who seems to cover nothing that happened more > recently than several hundred years earlier (focusing mostly on Goblin > rebellions). banjoken at optonline.net wrote: > I don't really think this is being fair to poor old prof. Binns :) I pontificate: I still think Binns is there to plant a giant red herring, akin to the "Snape wants the DADA job" rumor. In each and every book we are shown goblins, or goblins are referred to, and they are very much harmless and under control and in the background and no threat. We are being lulled, by their being the subject of such a dry and boring teacher, a class everyone blows off. BUT, the goblins were quite dangerous in the past, if you actually consider that these are rebellions and wars they're learning about. AND, goblins now control the only wizard bank we know of. I think the goblins have some major role to play. If Voldemort gets them on his side, easy enough to do, as they seem to have the amorality of the Swiss banks in the Nazi years (they did business with Sirius without the blink of an eye or the reporting of so much as a whisper to the MoM), and their prime motivation and a way to stir them up is money (they hounded Bagman). So Voldemort could have the entire economy of the wizarding world in his hand, causing chaos. I think, however, being Voldemort, he'll underestimate the goblins like Bagman did, like everyone in Binns' class or the wizard world does, and they'll turn on him, and be instrumental in his downfall. --Amanda, whose husband Jan actually thought of this some months ago [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 30 01:16:48 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:16:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Snape/Was Re: Cop-out References: <9mjmhf+j48k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8D9400.19A23FC1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25099 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > > > Ahaaa! Yes! A fellow investor in the Snape/Lily ship building > project that never left Snape's drawing board! Vampire schmampire, Koinonia hastily corrected: > I must correct this! I am the one who said the reason Black and Snape > hate each other was/is because of a woman. I don't believe it was > Lily. I absolutely hate the idea of Snape and Lily. She's right. It could have been a woman, not Lily. *I* am your true soul-sister in the Snape/Lily boatyard. Evidently, from your gleeful post of rejoicing, you weren't around for some of my more lengthy and passionate postings justifying this. Some time I'll dig up the numbers, or you can search on "Amanda, Snape, Lily" and see what you get. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 30 01:19:01 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:19:01 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB (you have to read it); was Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger?? In-Reply-To: <3B8D8E69.1167727F@texas.net> Message-ID: <9mk4a5+1m87@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25100 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: Everyone read down the list of Plot > Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit, add their own to the > bottom, and pass it on. > > Animagus (Ali) > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > ...... Draco is Evil Fudge is Evil *Don't we think JKR is a better writer and thinker than that?* --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************************* From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 30 01:22:57 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:22:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry is NOT going to die. References: Message-ID: <3B8D9571.99B4D46C@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25101 AAA143 at aol.com wrote: > Somebody'r'other writes: > > << The liklihood of Harry dying is between slim and none (and slim > just left town). JKR has been so terribly faithful in supporting her > fan base that a Harry demise, heroic or otherwise, would be worse than > telling 100 million children that there is no Santa Claus at hte same > time. In other words, she would go down in history as one of the > great literary "heels" of all time. >> > > Agreed. It would be a horrendous betrayal. - Paul JKR has never pandered to the wishes of her fan base, except perhaps in the schoolbooks. She has been entirely faithful to her own inner vision of the story she wants to tell. If part of the story upsets people, that upsets her, but it doesn't change anything. And why would Harry's death be a betrayal? If said death were noble, if said death saved the world, if said death was the only way to ultimately defeat Voldemort--bring it on. Death itself is not an ultimate evil. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 30 01:25:11 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:25:11 -0000 Subject: Oops - I didn't explain myself Message-ID: <9mk4ln+v3kh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25102 When I wrote "Fudge is Evil", what I meant to explain was that I don't want to see any more characters who appear to be good turn out to be evil. I think the series is much more complicated than that, and JKR has already done it with Quirrel, Scabbers (indirectly yes, but still) and Moody/Crouch. Sorry about that! --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 30 01:45:48 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:45:48 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB (you have to read it); was Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger?? In-Reply-To: <3B8D8E69.1167727F@texas.net> Message-ID: <9mk5sc+nvfo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25103 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Ali Wildgoose wrote: > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > ...... > > --Amanda > The Time Turner and (can I have two picks?) Veritaserum. Cindy (who thinks a Time Turner would just make her work twice as much) From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 30 01:47:11 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:47:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) References: <9mjgne+aan2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8D9B1E.6E320A8C@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25104 v_hayrabedian at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Another thought - if Snape was in Voldemort's inner circle (correct me > if I'm wrong) when Voldemort 'died', just how young was he when he > started spying? If he's about 35 now, he was about 23 when Voldemort fell. Brethren of the LOONs, does anyone know how long Voldemort was terrorizing? > It'd take him several years to get to that position > of power/trust, Not necessarily. Voldemort believes that he can always detect falsehood. Plus one of his ego is not the kind to worry about threats from those he believes subordinate. I think a follower, if useful and talented, could advance rather quickly. I doubt it was a position of trust, none of the positions under Voldemort that we've seen have been, it would have been a position of *use*. So Snape need not have been mid-teen. He could easily have been just over 20. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 02:12:20 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <3B8D9B1E.6E320A8C@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010830021220.65641.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25105 --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > If he's about 35 now, he was about 23 when Voldemort > fell. Brethren of > the LOONs, does anyone know how long Voldemort was > terrorizing? Well, I have yet to become one of the sacred Brethren of the LOON, but I'll answer anyway. ;) Eleven years. "You can't blame them," said Dumbledore gently. "We've had precious little to celebrate for eleven years." (PS/SS Chapter One) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From BrownieH6 at aol.com Thu Aug 30 02:13:42 2001 From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:13:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enem... Message-ID: <26.1a8b400b.28befb56@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25106 In a message dated 8/29/01 9:48:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, editor at texas.net writes: > Brethren of > Eleven years. It says so in the first book, I think. Something Dumbledore tells McGonagall. ~Marie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From margdean at erols.com Thu Aug 30 01:38:07 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:38:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks" References: <9mk0uq+hfm5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8D98FF.DD837853@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25107 Haggridd wrote: > I always thought that Ancient Runs were those things that > archaeologists dug up, with all the old buildings and stuff. Let's not confuse "Runes" (a writing system) with "Ruins" (what you get when a building falls down). As for "Ancient Runs," I believe the technical name is "coproliths." ;) --Margaret Dean From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 30 02:16:54 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:16:54 -0000 Subject: HP/children's literature -- Draco In-Reply-To: <3B8D848D.6070305@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9mk7mm+94l7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25108 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > In any > case, I'm not sure Bente's categorization fully reflects what is > indisputably the case: in book 7, Harry & Co. will be full-fledged, no > kidding adults. I had promised myself that I wasn't gonna get sucked into this again, but I can't let this one go! With all due respect, and I'm sorry if I offend the 'mature teens' out there: 17 is not indisputably 'full fledged, no kidding adults'. Aside from the fact of legal age, which varies from country to country, and aside from the fact that 17 year olds aren't really (generally speaking) mature enough to take on adult responsibilities and make adult choices, (and entirely aside from my own personal opinion on the matter), I don't see any evidence in the books that JKR thinks they are, either. Percy is still living at home after leaving Hogwarts and getting a job, and Cedric Diggory is described (GoF pg.71, 1st US Edition) as "an extremely handsome BOY of about 17". Fleur Delacour is repeatedly referred to as a girl, not a woman, and she's finishing her last year of school as GoF ends. I agree entirely that the characters are growing up, and the later books will probably not be suitable for kids of 7-8, but just like you have a problem classifying the books as childrens literature partly because the characters are getting older, I have a problem classifying them as adult books when the characters never grow up entirely. But like I said once before, we should probably just agree to disagree about how they should be classified, since classification doesn't amount to a hill of beans anyway. Bente From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 02:31:12 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:31:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PDWDWTSAFAB (you have to read it); was Mrs. Weasley...Sa Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25109 > > Animagus (Ali) > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) >The Time Turner and Veritaserum. (Cindy) Marauder's Map (Ali again) well...Cindy got two! ^_- Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 02:31:53 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:31:53 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks" In-Reply-To: <9mk0uq+hfm5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mk8ip+igot@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25110 > > I always thought that Ancient Runs were those things that > archaeologists dug up, with all the old buildings and stuff. > Aren't those Ancient Ruins? Runes are symbols, so ancient runes would be a class on learning about them and ndeciphering them, I'd imagine. later, m. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 02:33:54 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:33:54 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB (you have to read it); was Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger?? In-Reply-To: <9mk5sc+nvfo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mk8mi+btqo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25111 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > Ali Wildgoose wrote: > > > > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > ...... > > > > --Amanda > > > > > The Time Turner and (can I have two picks?) Veritaserum. > > Cindy (who thinks a Time Turner would just make her work twice as > much) Moaning Myrtle Haggridd From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 02:37:11 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:37:11 -0000 Subject: CoS Chapter 12--The Polyjuice Potion In-Reply-To: <9mk2sp+8cs7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mk8sn+p1pd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25112 > > > > 1. Did Snape know before the episode at the duelling club that > Harry > > was a Parselmouth? > > I'd say that somehow he did. He sets Harry up in front of a group of > people who will see his interaction with the snake and hear him speak > Parselmouth. This is very similar to PoA, when Snape fills in for > Lupin and procedes to teach Harry's class about werewolves. Isn't even Dumbledore unaware that he is a Parselmouth, though he's not surprised when he learns of it? I think that moment (duelling club) was the very first time I've ever seen SNape at a loss for words. He probably suggested the snake simply becausae he thought it would scare the wits out of Harry - - remember the imperious wave of his hand and the 'don't worry, I'll take care of it..." remark? He wanted to make Harry look bad, but not like Voldemort. > > > > 3. Fred and George cover themselves with fur and boils and jump > out > > at Ginny (who's upset that Colin's been Petrified). Do you think > > they're callous? > I think it's so funny -- like them marching Harry down the corridor yelling "Make way for the Heir of Slytherin!" > > > > 4. Do you think Fawkes's plumage colour is significant? > > Red and gold - aren't they Gryffindor colors? Ah, here's a question: If that signifies Gryffindor, did Voldemort's wand spout green and silver sparks? If V's wand spouted red and gold, it suggests it's due to the phoenix feather. And another question -- if the phoenix is associated with gryffindor (not saying he is, just wondering), how did Voldemort end up with it? He is Slytherin's heir, after all. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 02:36:33 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:36:33 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks" In-Reply-To: <9mk8ip+igot@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mk8rh+ng16@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25113 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > > > > > I always thought that Ancient Runs were those things that > > archaeologists dug up, with all the old buildings and stuff. > > > > Aren't those Ancient Ruins? Runes are symbols, so ancient > runes would be a class on learning about them and > ndeciphering them, I'd imagine. > > later, > m. It was a joke, dear; a really bad silly pun. H. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 02:40:19 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:40:19 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks" In-Reply-To: <3B8D98FF.DD837853@erols.com> Message-ID: <9mk92j+gjor@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25114 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean wrote: > Haggridd wrote: > > > I always thought that Ancient Runs were those things that > > archaeologists dug up, with all the old buildings and stuff. > > Let's not confuse "Runes" (a writing system) with "Ruins" (what > you get when a building falls down). > > As for "Ancient Runs," I believe the technical name is > "coproliths." ;) > > > --Margaret Dean > No, "Ancient Runs" were those athletic competitions that the Greeks used to hold every four years at Olympus. (And if you had to hold it for four years, you became exceptionally motivated to run.) Haggridd From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 02:41:06 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:41:06 -0000 Subject: Harry is NOT going to die. In-Reply-To: <3B8D9571.99B4D46C@texas.net> Message-ID: <9mk942+jsgb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25115 > > And why would Harry's death be a betrayal? If said death were noble, if > said death saved the world, if said death was the only way to ultimately > defeat Voldemort--bring it on. Death itself is not an ultimate evil. > While I dont think Harry is going to die, I have to second this statement. His dying does NOT mean Voldemort will live. In fact, his dying to save the world would make him a pretty solid hero and legend in anyone's book. It would be sad, and children all over the world would cry, which is one of the reasons I really can't see her doing it, but if he died to save everyone, it would be the utmost in nobility. From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 02:45:41 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:45:41 -0000 Subject: The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <3B8D9B1E.6E320A8C@texas.net> Message-ID: <9mk9cl+njie@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25116 > > If he's about 35 now, he was about 23 when Voldemort fell. Brethren of > the LOONs, does anyone know how long Voldemort was terrorizing? believe it or not, i made a timetable to sort out my brain. Am I a LOON now? Anyway, they said his power was steadily rising for 11 years (or 12, I have to check, but I think it's 11) when he met little Harry. If he was 15 in the memory in CoS, he'd be about 67 now. So since he was 56 or so, which means, since Snape is 35/36 (JKR has said so...that or 32/33...I can't remember which), he would have been a death eater at 21. But -- no one said he was in the inner circle, unless his inner circle are the ones who have the dark mark, and appeared at the graves. D. only said he was a death eater. Here's a question: If all Death Eaters are supposed to have a Dark Mark, why did no one ever question the lack of one on Sirius' arm? (assuming there isn't one, but I'm not even going there. Sirius is a good guy.) M. From Alyeskakc at aol.com Thu Aug 30 03:28:36 2001 From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 03:28:36 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjq0t+qpa9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mkbt4+oup4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25117 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire73 at y... wrote: > Yes, Draco's done a lot of lousy things, but I maintain he hasn't > done anything unforgivable yet, although not through lack of >trying. I mean, we forgive Sirius, who, at about the same age, sent >a fellow student on a wild goose chase which he *knew* ended at the >lair of a werewolf who would have torn said student in half and >splattered his entrails all over the walls. But Sirius is a Good >Guy. Mostly because his plot was foiled, as Malfoy's usually are, >and Snape survived. I'm not saying Draco will be redeemed, or even >that he deserves to be, just that if JKR wanted to redeem him, she >could. He hasn't done anything so bad that as a character, he is >completely unforgivable and unsaveable. Many people could say what Sirius did was unforgivable. I love Sirius to death, don't get me wrong. However not only did he send Snape into the lair of a werewolf, said werewolf happens to be one of Sirius' best friends. Sirius didn't think of what the consequences would be. Snape could have been killed or, at the very least become a werewolf himself. Remus on the other hand could have been sent to Azkaban or worse, killed. Draco's actions, so far, have been more of the teenage bully vareity. He's jealous of Harry and he's done some pretty nasty things. I don't think however, that he's been inherently malicious. Teenagers can do and say some pretty horrible things to each other at that age. Just think back to junior high or high school. Draco may follow down Snape's path and become a Death Eater. Then, for whatever reason, he'll see that it's not such a great thing to be and come back. I don't think this will happen until the last book, if it ever does. He will definately be an insufferable git for at least the next two books, however at this point I don't think he's completely and totally unredeemable. Only time will tell if he does something totally unforgivable. Cheers, Kristin From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 03:32:01 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010830033201.56585.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25118 Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. Animagus (Ali) Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) The Time Turner (Cindy) Veritaserum (Cindy) Marauder's Map (Ali again) Draco is Evil (Jenny) Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) Moaning Myrtle (??) Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 03:49:49 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 03:49:49 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <20010830033201.56585.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9mkd4t+67a1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25119 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > Animagus (Ali) > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > The Time Turner (Cindy) > Veritaserum (Cindy) > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > Moaning Myrtle (Haggridd) > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > Kelly the Yarn Junkie > > ===== > Pensieve > A New Harry Potter Discussion Group > for Adults > Low Traffic - High Quality > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > http://im.yahoo.com From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 04:00:26 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:00:26 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <9mkd4t+67a1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mkdoq+fsfh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25120 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > The Time Turner (Cindy) > > Veritaserum (Cindy) > > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggridd) > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) And I second Amanda's no more Polyjuice Potion. From heraldtalia at juno.com Thu Aug 30 02:56:13 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:56:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle Parents/long separation... Snape and Roald Dahl Connection Message-ID: <20010830.000122.-114253.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25121 on the autobiography of Roald > Dahl > which is titled BOY. As a bit of background, since I shouldn't > assume that > everyone here is familiar with his works (I've been told never to > ASSume > anything because it could backfire and make a donkey's end of you), > Roald > Dahl (RD) wrote the deliciously funny children's books Matilda, > James and > the Giant Peach, The BFG, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, etc. > > His autobiography encompasses a time in his life from 1925-1929, > which is > when he went to (I'm thinking) a typical English boarding school > called St. > Peters which was just across the Bristol Channel from his home. RD > goes > there at the tender age of nine and is expected to stay there from > September > until Christmas break. They then have to go back after Christmas > for the > second term until the summer holiday. I don't know if it has > changed since > RD's school days, but what JKR writes is surprisingly similar to > what RD > experienced. > > In fact, someone wrote in an earlier post that Snape is probably > just a > caricature and couldn't be a real teacher but RD has a very > Snape-like > character that he made up for the book _Matilda_ (the headmistress > by the > name of Trunchbull) and even experienced one in real life through a > really > horrible teacher called Captain Hardcastle. > > Consider this exchange between Captain Hardcastle and Roald Dahl, > who was 9 > 1/2, after RD had broken the nib (point) on his pen and was > attempting to > ask another student for a spare : > > (Please excuse the length, but it really is fascinating) > > "...I put a hand in front of my mouth and whispered, 'Dobson...Could > you > lend me a nib?' > > Suddenly there was an explosion up on the dais. Captain Hardcastle > had > leapt to his feet and was pointing at me and shouting, 'You're > talking! I > saw you talking! Don't try to deny it! I distinctly saw you > talking behind > your hand!' > > I sat there frozen with terror. > > 'Do you deny you were talking?' he shouted. > > 'No sir, b-but...' > > 'And do you deny you were trying to cheat?' > > 'N-no sir, I wasn't. I wasn't cheating.' > > 'Of course you were cheating! Why else, may I ask, would you be > speaking to > Dobson? I take it you were not inquiring after his health?' > > 'I have broken my nib, sir,' I whispered. 'I...I was asking Dobson > if he > c-could lend me one, sir.' > > 'You are lying!' cried Captain Hardcastle, and there was triumph in > his > voice. 'I always knew you were a liar! AND a cheat as well!'" > > Believe it or not, as a result of this nib incident, Roald Dahl was > "caned" > (spanked on the bare buttocks with a cane) six times. The reason: > "Talking > in class, trying to cheat and lying." > > Compare it with what Snape says to Harry when he says: > > "How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter. He too was > exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch > field made > him think he was a cut above the rest of us too. Strutting around > the place > with his friends and admireres...The resemblance between you is > uncanny." > > Hate to say it, but Captain Hardcastle makes Snape seem very > wholesome > indeed. > > > --Beverly (who had her own run-in with over-the-top teachers and is > probably > why she so favors homeschooling) There's been some discussion about the influence of many authors on JKR. Dahl is one of the obvious ones. However, JKR takes all the (few) good points about Roald Dahl and turns them into good ones. 1) the GB boarding school as a positive, healing, place. It's a home away from home for Harry, not a place for sadistic teachers out solely for the torture of students. Even Snape, whom we all love to hate, demonstrates a clear love for his subject matter in PS/SS. 2) Dahl's work has an unpleasant, dark edge to it that JKR's works do not. The Dark Lord is evil, the magical world is not perfect, and there is a courageous take on a lot of dark subjects BUT the characters don't seem locked in hopeless morass the way Dahl's characters do. His books are just depressing. 3) Contrast Dahl's "Witches" - they hate little boys because all little boys smell to them like fresh, hot dog excrement. with Voldemort's attempt to rise to power. Dahl's characters live in a senselessly cruel and malicious world, have no powers, and eventually sort of triumph. Harry at least lives in a world free of red hot dog excrement. There are unreasonable prejudices in the wizarding world, but we are clear that JKR is sending a strong message about the nature of prejudice. Dahl, on the other hand, was quite unapologetically anti everyone. Let's not discuss the famous literary analysis of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - a celebration of Naziism, according to some. The only Jewish character in the book is loathsome, the slaves are "woolly headed creatures" and there are strong overtones of "wicked lesbianism" - witches, Trunchbulls, etc in many of his books. Adults shove Dahl at kids because the Charlie books are so sugar coated - there's that whole chocolate factory. Contrast that to Honedukes. JKR has just as much fun with her treats, she invents great ones. But in Honeydukes, no one dies. We don't have anyone drowning in vats of chocolate, etc. The worst that happens is Fred once burned Ron's tongue with an Acid Pop. Personally, I think all these adults who are banning Harry because it might cause their children to be evil ought to rethink their Christmas movie - the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory tradition. IMHO, JKR really uses the whole GB boarding school/ magic themes in a much better and more psychologically healthy way than Dahl does. Robyn, who has been lurking for a while. Let's just say my toddler could have used Madam Pomfrey recently. Sorry to turn my first post back into a rant :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From driveslucy at aol.com Thu Aug 30 04:10:44 2001 From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:10:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PDWDWTSAFAB Message-ID: <15a.266f0d.28bf16c4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25122 Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. Animagus (Ali) Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) The Time Turner (Cindy) Veritaserum (Cindy) Marauder's Map (Ali again) Draco is Evil (Jenny) Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) Moaning Myrtle (Haggridd) Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) And I second Amanda's no more Polyjuice Potion (MMM) I feel for them but please may we have a break from Dobby and Winky (Luce) From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 04:17:50 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:17:50 -0000 Subject: CoS Chapter 12--The Polyjuice Potion In-Reply-To: <9mk05v+s5gr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mkepe+in7h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25123 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote: > 1. Did Snape know before the episode at the duelling club that Harry > was a Parselmouth? There are evidence that Snape knew Harry's a Parselmouth. The Duelling club was all about getting back at Harry after the trio blew up his classroom. Right before the Duelling club scene, Harry has said that Snape knew it was him and even though he can't prove it, Snape will do something -- 'Knowing Snape, something foul.' was Harry's exact words. Then Snape set the serpent on him. Also, when Mrs. Norris was petrified, Snape jumped onto Harry immediately. Of course, it could also just be Snape being Snape but I think Snape knew more than we suspected. > 3. Fred and George cover themselves with fur and boils and jump out > at Ginny (who's upset that Colin's been Petrified). Do you think > they're callous? Boys being boys. Not particularly callous. From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 04:38:10 2001 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:38:10 -0000 Subject: The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <9mk9cl+njie@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mkfvi+5ukq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25124 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > Here's a question: If all Death Eaters are supposed to have a > Dark Mark, why did no one ever question the lack of one on > Sirius' arm? (assuming there isn't one, but I'm not even going > there. Sirius is a good guy.) > > M. Here's my take. Although perhaps Dumbledore and maybe (the real) Moody know about the Dark Mark on the arms of the followers, I don't think it was very well-known. Where do I get this idea? GoF, ch. 27 (Padfoot Returns) (pgs 531-532, US ED): "He showed Snape something on his arm?" said Sirius, looking frankly bewildered. He ran his fingers distractedly through his filthy hair, then shrugged again. "Well, I've no idea what that's about ... ..." Which says to me that Sirius, who (at one point at least) was one of Dumbledore's "old crowd", didn't know that Death Eaters had a tattoo, which says to me that perhaps MOST people didn't possess that choice bit of knowledge. Jen From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 05:14:51 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dark Mark (was Re: The "Hitler Youth") In-Reply-To: <9mkfvi+5ukq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010830051451.31299.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25125 Hello, --- Jennifer Piersol wrote: > Dumbledore's "old crowd", didn't know that Death > Eaters had a tattoo, > which says to me that perhaps MOST people didn't > possess that choice > bit of knowledge. Is it a tattoo? Or, even if it is, I doubt it's a regular tattoo in that once you ink it on, it stays the same unless you remove it; it'd probably be done with magical ink where the colors would fade or deepen according to circumstances (including Voldemort's whims). I suspect that those aren't tattoos, even, since it sounds like only Voldemort can put the DM on the DEs. I can't find the textev right this minute (I'm at work), but I am sure that Snape said something about his Dark Mark changing to pitch black right after Bartry Crouch Jr. shot the Dark Mark into the sky, and then fading away as time passed. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 06:03:01 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 06:03:01 -0000 Subject: Dark Mark (was Re: The "Hitler Youth") In-Reply-To: <20010830051451.31299.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9mkkul+1skm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25126 > > I can't find the textev right this minute (I'm at > work), but I am sure that Snape said something about > his Dark Mark changing to pitch black right after > Bartry Crouch Jr. shot the Dark Mark into the sky, and > then fading away as time passed. He did, but it was still there, just not as bright. I always wondered about this Dark Mark -- what a STUPID way to go about things. All someone has to do is look at your arm? So I'm going with the theory that it's not visible all the time, only when V has an emotional surge or something. Who knows. But as Snape has one, you'd think D. would know about it, right? So the old crowd might know, but maybe not all of them? Was Sirius really IN the old crowd -- could he have just known about them, the little band of fighters against voldy? Because D. offered to be secret-keeper over James, and that means that he didn't trust him completely, right? From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 06:21:51 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 06:21:51 -0000 Subject: more draco stuff Message-ID: <9mkm1v+dkd7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25127 >From an online chat: >>Hello, Ms. Rowling. I am a big fan of the Harry Potter books. My name is Katherine Emily Rose, and I am 11. Is it true that Harry and Draco will have to get together and fight evil? JKR: Don't believe everything you read on the Net! I saw that rumor too, but it is just a rumor. << I guess that doesn't necessarily mean Draco will turn into SuperEvilBadGuyDeathEater, but it does cast some suspicion. m. From find_sam at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 07:07:57 2001 From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam Brown) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:07:57 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB (you have to read it) In-Reply-To: <3B8D8E69.1167727F@texas.net> Message-ID: <9mkood+lpai@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25128 Amandow wrote: > I hereby start a list. Everyone read down the list of Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit, add their own to the bottom, and pass it on. > Animagus (Ali) > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) Something I don't want to see again: Dumbledore Explains It All, ie, Dumbledore's clever summing up of events which manages to throw in a neat philosophical twist. See the ends of PS/SS and CoS. The ends of PoA and GoF were better off without a Dumbledore Explains It All (DEIA), IMO. Something I don't want to see in canon at all: Ron's death. Firstly because I like Ron, and secondly because the Best Friend's Death is such a cliche. Surely JKR is more inventive than this! Sam, who usually skips over the DEIA these days. From katzefan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 07:17:04 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:17:04 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks" In-Reply-To: <9mk8rh+ng16@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mkp9g+k2v9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25129 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > > > I always thought that Ancient Runs were those things that > > > archaeologists dug up, with all the old buildings and stuff. > > > > Aren't those Ancient Ruins? Runes are symbols, so ancient > > runes would be a class on learning about them and > > ndeciphering them, I'd imagine. > > later, > > m. > > It was a joke, dear; a really bad silly pun. > H. For which you should be duly punished.... From katzefan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 07:58:08 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:58:08 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <9mkdoq+fsfh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mkrmg+e8sc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25130 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > > The Time Turner (Cindy) > > > Veritaserum (Cindy) > > > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > > > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggridd) > > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > > > And I second Amanda's no more Polyjuice Potion. > > > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan)(MWA HA HA) From katzefan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 08:13:44 2001 From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:13:44 -0000 Subject: Is Draco evil, goblins, Snape Message-ID: <9mksjo+r8jc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25131 I certainly think Draco has the *potential* for evil - saw a news photo a few days ago of a little boy, maybe 8 or 9, with his parents at a neo-Nazi parade, and the kid had his arm out in the Nazi salute. I wanted to strangle the parents, *not* the boy. I doubt he really understands what that salute means (and has meant in the past) to millions of people, but he's well on his way to becoming as foul as his parents. Likewise, Draco is certainly starting down the right road with his racist views and his (at present) love of power for its own sake. He could reform, but I'm not sure what it would take to do it - I suspect nothing less than the death of one of his parents at the hands of Voldemort or one of his followers. Also, I think the reason Draco doesn't stand at the leaving feast is simply because he's still young enough that he hasn't learned to dissemble as smoothly as his father does. He's angry (and yes, jealous) and doesn't bother to hide it - yet. Give him a few more years and he'll start to pay more attention to - and practice - the PR skills Lucius has. >Bente said, >Personally, I don't really care one way or another whether Draco >ends up being good, evil or dead when it's all said and done, >and JKR is certainly welcome to do with him whatever she >wants, but I'd actually be more annoyed (not to mention >disappointed) if all the characters ended up reformed and >'good' in the end. Gotta agree with that one. If I wanted to read about Goody Two- Shoes, I would. >Amanda said >BUT, the goblins were quite dangerous in the past, if you >actually consider that these are rebellions and wars they're >learning about. AND, goblins now control the only wizard bank >we know of.... >I think, however, being Voldemort, he'll underestimate the >goblins like Bagman did, like everyone in Binns' class or the >wizard world does, and they'll turn on him, and be instrumental >in his downfall. >--Amanda, whose husband Jan actually thought of this some months ago Oooh, good point! I do think Voldemort would at least attempt to get the goblins on his side - which would give him total control of the wizarding economy - but I suspect the goblins are dangerous allies at best -- the kind you have to keep under constant surveillance because they'll switch sides in the blink of an eye. >And v_hayrabedian at y... wrote: > Another thought - if Snape was in Voldemort's inner circle >(correct me if I'm wrong) when Voldemort 'died', just how young >was he when he started spying? Remember also that Snape was characterized in one of the books (I forget which) as knowing more curses when he got to Hogwarts than most of the other students. This would have made him a terrific catch, by Voldemort's standards, and probably would have fast-tracked him up the hierarchy in Voldemort's circle, so he wouldn't necessarily have been really young when he joined the DE. ******************************************* Harry got through the next three days by forcing himself to think about his Handbook of Do-It-Yourself Broomcare whenever Aunt Marge started on him. This worked quite well, though it seemed to give him a glazed look, because Aunt Marge started voicing the opinion that he was mentally subnormal. From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 30 08:29:51 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:29:51 -0000 Subject: Ginny---- Hermione/McGonagal similarities In-Reply-To: <9mjoiv+obos@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mkthv+iov2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25132 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > Ginny---I have always found JKR's portrayal of Ginny a bit strange, > she always seems to act a lot younger than she is. You always think > of her as being very young, when in fact she is only a year younger > than Harry, Hermione and Ron. If you think about the way they act > when they were her age it doesnt seem right; We must remember that Ginny is the youngest, and the only girl, of a large clan. She probably acts younger than her age because she isn't expected to grow up; in the eyes of her brothers she'll always be a little girl. Take it from someone with only three older brothers! Also, it may be that her more juvenile acting, especially the crying, is the one way she knows she can get attention. A spell at Hogwarts, away from a lot (though certainly not all) of the family dynamics will, I hope, encourage and allow her to grow up and become her own person. I agree that she must be there for a reason...a Ginny/Draco liason strikes me as interesting as well! Cheers! Mary Ann :) From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 30 08:37:02 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:37:02 -0000 Subject: Daft Question In-Reply-To: <9mk8ip+igot@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mktve+grg6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25133 Sorry to ask a daft question, but in my defence I'm still new to this group...who or what are the Brethren of the LOON? Thanks in advance! Mary Ann (who is thick as 2 planks on the best of days) From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Thu Aug 30 09:41:30 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:41:30 -0000 Subject: Harry is NOT going to die. In-Reply-To: <9mk942+jsgb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ml1oa+7gfr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25134 mellienel2 at y... wrote: >>> (Harry) dying to save the world would make him a pretty solid hero and legend in anyone's book. It would be sad, and children all over the world would cry, which is one of the reasons I really can't see her doing it, but if he died to save everyone, it would be the utmost in nobility. << Depends a bit how it is done. For my part I recall Wilfred Owen's poem on the Cicero tag 'sweet and proper is it to die for your country' which ends My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori. See whole poem at: http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~benjamin/316kfall/316ktexts/owendulce.html I would be rather disappointed if Jo ended up reinforcing the search for 'Desperate Glory' amongst her readers child or otherwise. And actually I dont think she will. Edis Bevan From pernille at post1.tele.dk Thu Aug 30 09:53:02 2001 From: pernille at post1.tele.dk (pernille at post1.tele.dk) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:53:02 -0000 Subject: harrypotter.com Message-ID: <9ml2du+m1gc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25135 Hello! Am I the only one having serious problems accessing the harrypotter.com? I'd like to see the trailer, but when I try to lock on I get the intro - and then nothing! I've opdated my browsers and plugins - no luck! Has anyone got a clue? :-) Pernille From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 30 09:51:13 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:51:13 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks" In-Reply-To: <9mkp9g+k2v9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ml2ah+1qv0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25136 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > > > > > I always thought that Ancient Runs were those things that > > > > archaeologists dug up, with all the old buildings and stuff. > > > > > > Aren't those Ancient Ruins? Runes are symbols, so ancient > > > runes would be a class on learning about them and > > > ndeciphering them, I'd imagine. > > > later, > > > m. > > > > It was a joke, dear; a really bad silly pun. > > H. > > For which you should be duly punished.... Tied to a chair and forced to listen to audio tapes of Jeffrey Archer "novels" is my vote! Mary Ann ;) From aanimator2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 10:06:15 2001 From: aanimator2 at yahoo.com (Danny) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:06:15 -0000 Subject: I'm new to the community and have a question... Message-ID: <9ml36n+n6it@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25137 Hi, everyone. First, I'm a huge fan of J.K. Rowling's achievement in the Harry Potter series. Second, I'm glad I'm not the only crazy adult to love the books. They are extremely fun to read and, as a footnote, just as fun to listen to on audio tape/CD. In fact, if you have the resources, I recommend buying the CD collection of all four books. Jim Dale is fantastic! I have a question for you all: Does anyone have any "inside" information on WHEN the following book is due out and/or any ideas on what the forthcomoming book's all about? It's been hard for me to imagine J.K. Rowling getting better as each book unfolds but that's exactly what astounds me. How as each book progresses and develops, so does J.K's writing ability and sophistication---and so does my wanting more! It's fantastic! Surprised every time. So if any of you have ANY clue as to what the next book is about, about plot or characters or ANYTHING, please do me a favor and post it. I would love to read your responses and would be delited to read even speculation as I think it's bound to be all I get. Please help this hopelessly engrossed adult reader with his "Harrypotteritis!" Tired But Smiling, aanimator2 From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Thu Aug 30 10:59:34 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 06:59:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] harrypotter.com Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25138 No clue about the site, but you can find the trailers at adcritic.com - just do a search for them! Fictionalley.org | fanfic novels of all shapes, sizes and ships 7 sickles an ounce -----Original Message----- From: pernille at post1.tele.dk To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu Aug 30 05:53:02 2001 Subject: [HPforGrownups] harrypotter.com Real-To: pernille at post1.tele.dk Hello! Am I the only one having serious problems accessing the harrypotter.com? I'd like to see the trailer, but when I try to lock on I get the intro - and then nothing! I've opdated my browsers and plugins - no luck! Has anyone got a clue? :-) Pernille _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI PS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Thu Aug 30 11:07:00 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:07:00 -0400 Subject: ADMIN- {was [HPforGrownups] Re: Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks"} Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25139 Wonderful thread! But now completely off topic. Can you take it to ot-chatter? For newies, the link to the ot-chatter yahoogroup is http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter -----Original Message----- From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu Aug 30 05:51:13 2001 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks" Real-To: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > > > > > I always thought that Ancient Runs were those things that > > > > archaeologists dug up, with all the old buildings and stuff. > > > > > > Aren't those Ancient Ruins? Runes are symbols, so ancient > > > runes would be a class on learning about them and > > > ndeciphering them, I'd imagine. > > > later, > > > m. > > > > It was a joke, dear; a really bad silly pun. > > H. > > For which you should be duly punished.... Tied to a chair and forced to listen to audio tapes of Jeffrey Archer "novels" is my vote! Mary Ann ;) _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI PS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From hoshi_hime55 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 12:24:50 2001 From: hoshi_hime55 at hotmail.com (hoshi_hime55 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:24:50 -0000 Subject: Two Dimensional (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <9mjvck+sjrv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mlbai+kk8q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25140 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bente13 at p... wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hoshi_hime55 at h... wrote: > > > > > > > > I also think that Rowling will severely hurt her popularity if > > > > she makes Draco two dimensional and evil. I know that I would > be > > > > annoyed. > > > > > > > > > Don't you mean one dimensional...? > > > > > Bente > > > > No the use of "two dimensional" implies that the character is flat, > > just words on a (2-D) page, not like a three dimensional flesh and > > blood person. It does not mean two aspects as opposed to one. > > > > Haggridd > > > Ah! Thank you. I was thinking more along the lines of one- dimensional > stock characters, as in all good or all evil. My point in any case > was that Draco wouldn't have to be two-dimensional/flat/whatever, > even if he were evil; some villains (albeit not Voldemort, as yet) > have very well rounded personalities. Agreed? > > Bente Agreed, some villians can be 3-D, but I think that if a character acts evil with the only motive being that he is evil with no reason for him to be evil other than he was born that way, then that's pretty 2-D. If Draco just continues to do exactly what his father does and joins the Death Eaters with no independant thought and with no regrets about it, than he would be considered 2-D. Procyon From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Aug 30 12:33:34 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:33:34 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Gentle Reminders Message-ID: <3B8E329E.6050809@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25141 Hi everyone -- I've seen a few messages over the last few days where people asked questions covered in our VFAQs document (Very Frequently Asked Questions). If you've got what strikes you as a common question, before asking the group as a whole, please do check to see if you can find the answer on your own in our VFAQs document. We do update it frequently to account for new VFAQs, and we took alot of trouble to pull it together in the first place. Here's the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm Thanks! Penny From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Thu Aug 30 12:34:49 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:34:49 -0000 Subject: HP/children's literature In-Reply-To: <3B8D848D.6070305@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9mlbt9+brbj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25142 Penny wrote: >>>> My argument is that GoF crosses the line for sure into adult literature, and the latter 3 books promise to go even further. So ... how to categorize the *series*. Is it a "childrens' series" just because Harry was 11 when it all started? Seems short-sighted to me. <<< I am coming to think of the *series* being about 'growing up' and in future years when we have all seven (plus whatever 'textbooks' and so on are produced as auxiliaries) it will be seen as something young people grow up with, getting to the appropriate books as they grow to need what that book offers. A companion in the way. Books 1-3 could be read by kids from 7 upwards, book 4 maybe ages 9 to 10 and I suspect that book seven will be best started by 12-13 year olds. I do think we could have some further 'auxiliary' books like QTTA. Maybe a Muggle Studies textbook, explaining why Muggles would be utterly bewildered by aspects of the Wizarding World the wizard community just takes for granted. For example, Muggles would be bewildered by the Hogwarts Express not seeing the points (so obvious as to be unremarked) that make it the natural Magical Community way to work. The Jo could give an explanation that of course doesn't actually explain but means nit-pickers like us cant moan any more about errors... The textbooks could help keep the younger child enthusiast happy even if the main series later books became something "you will understand one day. I know you don't like to hear that..." Just a thought From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 13:19:18 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:19:18 -0400 Subject: Pockets, Death, S/L etc., Patronus, OoP, DADA, Passwords, Children's book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25143 Gwen wrote: >What I want to know is, how the heck can the Invisibility Cloak fit >in >Lupin's pocket? It's large enough to fit over three teenagers. >Even >granted that it's made of very thin material, as I envision it, >cloaks are >large. That's some deep pocket. Ah, I can't resist sartorial threads . This isn't the only mention of pretty large things fitting into pockets, though I can't remember any specific examples other than wands. I always imagine that robes have big internal pockets, like the inside breast pockets of overcoats except even bigger. Barb wrote: >Dumbledore says that no spell can bring someone back or even protect >against the Avada Kedavra curse. This implies that because the latter is false, we can doubt his word on the former. But Dumbledore doesn't say anything about AK. Moody does, even while acknowledging that the exception is sitting in front of him, but anyway who trusts him? IMO, if there is one sure thing about the next 3 books, it is that no one will come back from the dead. However, JKR can always pull the old (and in my view, frequently cheap) trick of someone not really dying but everyone (including us) believing he/she has for a few chapters. She could also weasel out of Dumbledore's statement by coming up with something other than a spell, as you pointed out, and it's the kind of thing she would do. However, when D. made that statement it wasn't even about a spell. It's not as if someone asked him, "Did a spell bring them back?" and he said "No spell can bring the dead back to life." Sirius asked "Diggory came back to life?" and the context was P.I., not a spell. So Dumbledore's statement seems to have been a general principle, not one about spells alone. And as long as I'm praying for JKR to step carefully around literary cliches, I'd like to second 4FR's opinion that men do not need a woman to fight over in order to hate each other. IMHO, Sirius's prank is a much more interesting reason for Snape to hate him; so is James's personality. People do fall out over love, but I'm kind of sick of seeing it, myself. Koinonia, if you found a Snape Didn't Give a Fig About Lily club (with a clever acronym of course), I'll pay my 2 Sickles and join up. Cindy wrote: >There can be serious doubt that Black knows how to generate a >Patronus >under the best of circumstances. The only magic we've seen >him do >involves Transfiguration (animagus, conjuring manacles, >causing Pettigrew >to reveal himself). Perhaps Black is a clever >wizard, but he's not the >greatest at DADA, which is Lupin's >expertise. Conjuring a Patronus might be something that many wizards never master. I don't doubt that Sirius is a great wizard, whether DADA is his special forte or not, but he's been locked up since about age 21. Maybe he never learned it at all. Suzanne wrote re: OoP: >I also ocassionally wonder if the title is one big red herring... hehehehheheh. Awww, JKR would throw us red herrings with glee, but she wouldn't do that to a "cute little boy" who was the one who extracted the title from her, would she? However, she's changed titles in midstream at least twice, so OoP might be something different by the time it emerges. Cindy wrote: >True, we don't know if Snape wants the DADA job. He has been resentful >toward all of the DADA teachers, particularly Lockhart. His reasons are as varied as the reasons DADA teachers flop, though. Quirrell, he hates because he's on to him (and we don't see any sign of it early in the book, before this reason kicks in). Lockhart, well, everyone hates Lockhart; he's incompetent, overbearing, and conceited. Lupin, we know the personal reasons, plus there's the werewolf issue. Moody, Snape is afraid of; he knows Moody hates him for having been a DE and would've sent him to Azkaban if he'd had his way. It's clear that Snape thinks he could do a better job than 2 or 3 of these guys--in the case of Quirrell and Lockhart, he's right--but I don't think his dislike of the various DADA teachers can be put down to a simple case of envy. >7. Who sets the passwords to the common rooms? Do you think the > choice of passwords is important? Significant? I agree with Marianne that the Head of House is a likely person, but it is rather disturbing to think that Snape would propose "pure-blood." I had a bunch of thoughts about the children's book thing but it was mostly on Pullman and Lord of the Flies, so I took it to OT. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- Dudley thought for a moment. It looked like hard work. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Aug 30 13:33:31 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:33:31 -0500 Subject: HP/children's literature (again) References: <9mlbt9+brbj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8E40AB.60907@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25144 Hi -- A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk wrote: > > I am coming to think of the *series* being about 'growing up' Yes, it clearly is. The series is what is often referred to by literary types as a bildungsroman -- a chronicle of the journey from childhood to adulthood. > and in future years when we have all seven (plus whatever 'textbooks' and so > on are produced as auxiliaries) it will be seen as something young > people grow up with, getting to the appropriate books as they grow to > need what that book offers. > Books 1-3 could be read by kids from 7 upwards, book 4 maybe ages 9 > to 10 and I suspect that book seven will be best started by 12-13 > year olds. The problem is this though. Let's say a 9 year old starts PS/SS. She loves it. She reads CoS a month later. Again, she loves it. She moves onto the PoA the following month. Hmm... this is getting harder to follow & understand, but she's desperate to know what happens next. So on. It will be very hard to tell a child that he/she can only read the first few books -- "you'll have to wait a few years before you're ready to read those later ones, honey." See the problem with that? Children will either read the entire series at such a young age that they won't fully understand or appreciate the later volumes, or they will begin the series at a much older age. If it's the latter, then what you have isn't really a childrens' series at all. Young Adult (YA)? Maybe. I'm not a big fan of that classification though. I guess I just forsee problems with assuming that the series will be read over the course of years, with the readers continuing to age right along with the characters. I think it will be too much to expect that a reader will wait years before reading the series through to its conclusion. I know I wouldn't have had that kind of patience. Other multi-volume bildungsroman type works don't present the same challenges as HP. Ebony and some of us discussed this thorny issue last summer or fall. She said her fellow educators at a conference couldn't think of another multi-volume series like HP where the early books are clearly fine for the 9-12 set but the later volumes become less & less appropriate in terms of subject-matter & complexity. AGE OF ADULTHOOD -- Bente took issue with my assertion that the characters will be full-fledged adults in Book 7. I do agree that we're going to have to agree to disagree, but I do have a quibble. I never used the word "17" in my post. I do think that age 17 is the "age of consent" in the UK, but be that as it may, the characters will all turn 18 at some point during Book 7 or sometime shortly thereafter. We don't know if Hermione is 2 months younger or 10 months older than Harry (birthday of Sept 19th), but she may turn 18 at the beginning of Book 7. Ron will turn 18 on March 1st of Book 7's school term. Harry will be 18 right as the novel is ending presumably. [This all assumes that each of these 3 characters is still alive at his/her 18th birthday] Even the marketers have termed HP as being a chronicle of a wizard "coming of age." Thus, it stands to reason that he will be *of age* at the conclusion of the series. Chronological age aside, I also would argue that *Harry* (if not his friends yet) has matured beyond his years due to what he's already been through. This will continue to be the case. The demands of the conflict to take place over the last 3 books (presumably) will no doubt have a profound effect on the maturation of these characters. JKR has also said that she did not intend to keep them rooted in pre-adolescence forever. So, if their chronological age is progressing and their maturity level matches up more or less with that age (and you add in what will be going on in their lives), then yes, I stand by my argument that they will be adults by Book 7. Bente raised some examples that she says support the idea that JKR thinks 17/18 yr olds are still children (or aren't yet adults). Percy has a job with the Ministry, but continues to live at the Burrow with his family. Are all young adults who live temporarily with their parents while trying to get their feet on the ground still children then -- simply by virtue that they haven't yet made the step to take out their own residence? We don't know for sure, but presumably Bill & Charlie went straight from Hogwarts to their respective jobs in Egypt & Romania. If they did this, then does it follow that the mere act of leaving home to live on one's own defines adulthood? As I said, I think our 3 main characters are going to be thrown into situations & circumstances that will mature them beyond their chronological age in any case. After all, Dumbledore already told Harry that he'd successfully shouldered a grown wizard's burden at age 14. But, it does sound as though we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. :--) Penny From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 13:44:25 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:44:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I'm new to the community and have a question... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25145 >I have a question for you all: Does anyone have any "inside" >information on WHEN the following book is due out and/or any ideas on >what the forthcomoming book's all about? I actually WORK for Scholastic, and I have absolutely no idea. The current estimated time of arrival is this upcoming July. But really, that's just speculation. The actual progress of Book V is being kept very hush hush. Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From nausicaa at atlantic.net Thu Aug 30 13:50:05 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jenny K.) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP/children's literature (again) In-Reply-To: <3B8E40AB.60907@swbell.net> References: <9mlbt9+brbj@eGroups.com> <3B8E40AB.60907@swbell.net> Message-ID: <999179405.3b8e448d67352@webmail.atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25146 Quoting Penny & Bryce : > The problem is this though. Let's say a 9 year > old starts PS/SS. She > loves it. She reads CoS a month later. Again, > she loves it. She moves > onto the PoA the following month. Hmm... this > is getting harder to > follow & understand, but she's desperate to know > what happens next. So > on. It will be very hard to tell a child that > he/she can only read the > first few books -- "you'll have to wait a few > years before you're ready > to read those later ones, honey." See the > problem with that? Children > will either read the entire series at such a > young age that they won't > fully understand or appreciate the later > volumes, or they will begin the > series at a much older age. If it's the latter, > then what you have > isn't really a childrens' series at all. Young > Adult (YA)? Maybe. I'm > not a big fan of that classification though. I read quite a few books when I was quite young (9, 10, 11 yrs old) that I didn't necessarily understand. I either looked up unknown words, asked about particular phrases, or just assumed that it was some silly thing in the book. I still enjoyed them. AND I've read most of them later, STILL love them, but now I get more out of them...I catch subtle hints, jokes, or suggestions that I'd missed before. These are some of my favorite books, because reading them again means that I get to find something new. I see nothing wrong with letting children read what they want, provided parental guidance is involved (no matter what the age, really). Yes, this is my choice and many people don't agree with this -- I would not have a problem with a child reading, say, the Story of O at a young age (and I know some friends who read that shortly after they learned to read...although *their* parents had no idea). I would insist on discussing sections of these books with the child though. AND, I would never force any books on anyone (child, adult, other). Jennifer K. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent through Atlantic.Net Webmail. Sign up for fast, reliable dial-up service for only $19.95/mo. Visit www.atlantic.net to learn more. From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 30 13:52:54 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:52:54 -0000 Subject: HP/children's literature (again) In-Reply-To: <3B8E40AB.60907@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9mlgfm+v1a8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25147 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Are all young adults who live temporarily with their > parents while trying to get their feet on the ground still children then > -- simply by virtue that they haven't yet made the step to take out > their own residence? We don't know for sure, but presumably Bill & > Charlie went straight from Hogwarts to their respective jobs in Egypt & > Romania. If they did this, then does it follow that the mere act of > leaving home to live on one's own defines adulthood? Not entirely, but in a way I think it does, yes. More so than simply turning 17, 18 or 21, anyway. Wouldn't you agree that an adult is someone who behaves like an adult? Someone who takes on adult responsibilites and makes adult choices? *After* they have grown up chronologically, I mean? Yes, I agree that Harry is remarkably mature for 14 (and will continue to be more mature than his chronological age as he gets older), but he's still a boy. The stronger part of my argument, though, was that Cedric and Fleur, both of whom were over 17, 'of age' according to Dumbledore, were referred to in GoF as 'boy' and 'girl'. This doesn't argue that JKR thinks of them as full fledged adults; at least it doesn't seem so to me. > But, it does sound as though we'll just have to agree to disagree on > this point. :--) > > Penny Goody! Let's put it to rest; I'm tired of it! Bente From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 30 14:04:28 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:04:28 -0000 Subject: HP/children's literature (again) In-Reply-To: <999179405.3b8e448d67352@webmail.atlantic.net> Message-ID: <9mlh5c+9r1s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25148 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jenny K." wrote: > > > I see nothing wrong with letting children read what they > want, provided parental guidance is involved (no matter > what the age, really). Yes, this is my choice and many > people don't agree with this -- I would not have a > problem with a child reading, say, the Story of O at a > young age (and I know some friends who read that shortly > after they learned to read...although *their* parents > had no idea). I would insist on discussing sections of > these books with the child though. AND, I would never > force any books on anyone (child, adult, other). > > Jennifer K. > While I agree that some young children are mature enough to read adult books early - I remember reading 'Gone with the Wind' at 8 or 9, and my mother would borrow adult books for me at the library, that the librarian would let me take out on my own - 'Story of O' is not a book that I would recommend to anyone under the age of... oh... 25 or 30. (Kidding!) I assume we're talking about the same 'Story of O'...? Speaking for myself, it's not the example of sex and relationships I want to set for my children. Sorry if this offends some of you, but 'Story of O' frankly turns my stomach, and I'd hate to think what it would do to a young, impressionable mind. Bente From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 30 14:10:40 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:10:40 -0000 Subject: HP/children's literature (again) In-Reply-To: <9mlgfm+v1a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mlhh0+vgrh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25149 Cedric and Fleur, both of whom were over > 17, 'of age' according to Dumbledore, were referred to in GoF > as 'boy' and 'girl'. This doesn't argue that JKR thinks of them as > full fledged adults; at least it doesn't seem so to me. > > Could it be that JKR uses the terms 'boy' and 'girl' not only to denote that these two are not to be thought of as adults, but also to help her younger readers relate to the characters better? If I were 12 years old I would be turned off by Cedric and Fleur being refered to as adults. It would also put a much greater gap between these 2 and the younger characters; might as well have 30-year-olds rather than 17-year olds. IMHO, JKR is still writing principally for her younger audience, rather than us old fogies. Waving from my zimmer frame, Mary Ann :) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 14:23:09 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:23:09 -0000 Subject: HP/children's literature In-Reply-To: <9mlbt9+brbj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mli8d+tq23@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25150 Edis wrote: > I am coming to think of the *series* being about 'growing up' and in > future years when we have all seven (plus whatever 'textbooks' and so > on are produced as auxiliaries) it will be seen as something young > people grow up with, getting to the appropriate books as they grow to > need what that book offers. A companion in the way. > > Books 1-3 could be read by kids from 7 upwards, book 4 maybe ages 9 > to 10 and I suspect that book seven will be best started by 12-13 > year olds. That makes a lot of sense, but it would never have worked for me. I would have done the same thing as a child that I did as an adult: read straight through all of the available books as fast as I could. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------- Ron peered into Harry's teacup, his forehead wrinkled with effort. "There's a blob a bit like a bowler hat," he said. "Maybe you're going to work for the Ministry of Magic. . . ." -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban ------------------------------------------------- From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 14:31:38 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:31:38 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <9mkrmg+e8sc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mlioa+ri83@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25151 Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. Animagus (Ali) Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) The Time Turner (Cindy) Veritaserum (Cindy) Marauder's Map (Ali again) Draco is Evil (Jenny) Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) Dobby and Winky (Luce) Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) The Pensieve. Great idea, but you only get to use it once, Jo. Re: the list above: I don't mind Animagi per se--naturally whenever we see Sirius this is going to come into play, and I do want to see Sirius (don't we all)--but if anyone else turns out to be an unregistered Animagus, I will retire to a U-bend in disgust. Seeming Good Guy is Evil and Seeming Evil Guy is Good can work well, depending. The books are mysteries; as such, people are not always what they seem. In the case of 2 and 4 in particular, we know from the start that someone is causing trouble, and it would be boring if it were someone we already knew was bad. I for one think Fudge is one that's well-done, especially if he turns out not to be a DE (please please please). He isn't a good guy who suddenly jumps out of a cupboard wearing an Evil Guy mask and cape; he is a generally good and kind man whose blind spot may cause evil to flourish. Plot Devices that Get Funnier and Better the More Times They're Repeated: ill-fated DADA professors. Things I'm Hoping Will Turn into Plot Devices (this is a subset of Red Flags): F & G's wheezes. Like Portkeys, the FFA and Polyjuice, which each made an innocuous appearance before returning as crucial plot devices, a Canary Cream or the like may prove to be a very big deal. I'm hoping so. Amy Z -------------------------------------------------------------- "Damn it, all this eye-twinkling is making my pupils itch." --Dumbledore, "The Magical Mystika Tour," Rave www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=93315 -------------------------------------------------------------- From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 14:34:07 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:34:07 -0000 Subject: ADMIN- {was [HPforGrownups] Re: Ancient Runes, or as Sophocles would say, "Edifice Wrecks"} In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mlisv+ts7s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25152 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > Wonderful thread! But now completely off topic. Can you take it to > ot-chatter? For newies, the link to the ot-chatter yahoogroup is > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter > Dear Heidi, What is more ON topic than punning a la JKR? You don't mean to say that Ancient Runes are not broken down old bulidings, or the Olympics? Seriously (Siriusly?), point taken, WILCO. Haggridd From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Aug 30 14:42:54 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:42:54 -0500 Subject: What's an Adult -- Censorship of Children's Reading Material References: <9mlgfm+v1a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8E50EE.3000209@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25153 Hi -- Bente13 at peoplepc.com wrote: > > Not entirely, but in a way I think it does, yes. More so than simply > turning 17, 18 or 21, anyway. Wouldn't you agree that an adult is > someone who behaves like an adult? Someone who takes on adult > responsibilites and makes adult choices? *After* they have grown up > chronologically, I mean? Sure, being an adult means taking on adult responsibilities. What is it though about Percy making a choice to live at home for at least a year while beginning his career that is *not* an adult-like action? Strikes me that his choice could have been motivated by finances. I just didn't get that part of your argument. That's all. :--) > The stronger part of my > argument, though, was that Cedric and Fleur, both of whom were over > 17, 'of age' according to Dumbledore, were referred to in GoF > as 'boy' and 'girl'. This doesn't argue that JKR thinks of them as > full fledged adults; at least it doesn't seem so to me. Might be that she used the terms "boy" and "girl" more because they are still students rather than a reflection that she still considers them to be "children." There's also Harry's POV to consider. He sees them as students and therefore as a boy and girl rather than a man & woman. Jennifer K raised some points about adult supervision of childrens' reading materials. I was actually a voracious reader as a child, and I read at far beyond my age level. Like Bente, I read Gone with the Wind in the 3rd grade in fact. But, I was the child of non-readers. My parents eventually just let me read whatever I wanted, with little or no input from them. Despite the fact that I am a huge reader, I'd like to think that I won't censor my children's reading materials. My arguments about the later volumes of HP maybe not being appropriate for younger children is more to point out that I don't agree with the characterization of the series as a childrens' series -- not that I am in favor of censoring the material from children who are ready to read it. I just don't think that very many children will fully appreciate the complexities of the later volumes ... or at least what I expect will be the complexities of the later volumes given GoF. I will absolutely allow my kids to read HP at whatever age they can read the words, but I don't imagine that they will fully appreciate it until they are older. I too read books as a child that I appreciate more *now* when I re-read them. I think I rambled a bit above. But, I did want to clarify that I'm absolutely against censorship of reading materials. I think it's a good idea for parents to be actively involved in discussing books with kids (but not prohibiting them outright). Not sure I made any sense at all.... Penny From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 14:48:17 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:48:17 -0000 Subject: PDW"DO"WTSAFAB (was Re: PDWDWTSAFAB) In-Reply-To: <9mlioa+ri83@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mljnh+t5g2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25154 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > Animagus (Ali) > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > The Time Turner (Cindy) > Veritaserum (Cindy) > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > Dobby and Winky (Luce) > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) > > The Pensieve. Great idea, but you only get to use it once, Jo. > h. > > Plot Devices that Get Funnier and Better the More Times They're > Repeated: ill-fated DADA professors. > > Things I'm Hoping Will Turn into Plot Devices (this is a subset of Red > Flags): F & G's wheezes. Like Portkeys, the FFA and Polyjuice, which > each made an innocuous appearance before returning as crucial plot > devices, a Canary Cream or the like may prove to be a very big deal. > I'm hoping so. > > Amy Z I agree whole heartedly about the DADA conceit, so I therefore do not want the real Moody to become DADA prof. On that note, I wonder why some suggested DADA teachers will turn out to be unsuitable: Fleur, Mrs. Figg, the apocryphal "Romulus" Lupin. Any ideas, people? I also am a big fan of F&G (I prefer it without the spaces, myself.) I would love to see them revealed as Unspeakables from the Department of Mysteries. Haggridd From heraldtalia at juno.com Thu Aug 30 14:41:01 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:41:01 -0400 Subject: Lupin's robes, spinning the sartorial thread, Sirius and the Patronus. Next DADA teacher, Dumbledore's name, Evil Draco Message-ID: <20010830.104113.-194551.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25155 Gwen wrote: >What I want to know is, how the heck can the Invisibility Cloak fit >in >Lupin's pocket? It's large enough to fit over three teenagers. >Even >granted that it's made of very thin material, as I envision it, >cloaks are >large. That's some deep pocket. And Amy Z. answered >Ah, I can't resist sartorial threads thankyouverymuch>. This isn't the only mention of pretty large things >fitting into pockets, though I can't remember any specific examples other >than wands. I always imagine that robes have big internal pockets, like the >inside breast pockets of overcoats except even bigger. Continuing to spin out this thread (please don't PUNish me, Haggrid. I'll go quietly off to Xanth after this) Wizard's conceptions of space and how to use it seems a bit different than ours. Arthur Weasley bewitched the seemingly small Ford Anglia so the seat "resembled a park bench." As (I think it was) Steve Van Der Ark pointed out, Molly Weasley saw nothing odd or wrong about this. Moody's trunk is another case in point. Seemingly small wizarding objects can hold large volumes. After all, why would you need a wizarding shop like Madam Malkin's or Gladrags to buy robes - concievably, you could obtain similar things in the Muggle world - unless the robes have some routine charms built into them? I don't think Jo would even need to tell us about them unless it was integral to the plot. Of course robe pockets can hold a lot. And just like you need a cell phone carrier these days on handbags, I can't imagine a wizard's robe comes without a place to put the wand. Cindy wrote: >There can be serious doubt that Black knows how to generate a >Patronus >under the best of circumstances. The only magic we've seen >him do >involves Transfiguration (animagus, conjuring manacles, >causing Pettigrew >to reveal himself). Perhaps Black is a clever >wizard, but he's not the >greatest at DADA, which is Lupin's >expertise. And Amy answered >Conjuring a Patronus might be something that many wizards never master. I >don't doubt that Sirius is a great wizard, whether DADA is his special forte >or not, but he's been locked up since about age 21. Maybe he never learned >it at all. Don't the dementors eat happy thoughts? In PoA Sirius tells Harry "I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew that I was innocent. That wasn't a happy thought, so the dementors couldn't !suck it out of me!" (PoA, 371) (exclamation points mine!) After 12 years in Azkaban, Sirius simply has no happy thoughts left, the dementors have consumed them all. So he has none to use to conjure up a Patronus. Next DADA teacher? Can we all vote? I'll go with Prof. Grubbly Plank or MOLLY WEASLEY! It would be perfect. Jo could have such fun with Ron's embarrassment over having his mother there, Molly was enjoying "not having to cook" in GoF, and I bet she's a pretty powerful witch - Fred and George are certainally scared of her. Arthur seems terrified. And I'm like Gred and Forge - I love to torture Ginny, and having her mom around at school at that particularly awful stage of preadolescence would be deliciously excrutiating. If this has been discussed before, please forgive me - I've been wading through the previous posts and VFAQs but RL intrudes to some degree. Dumbledore's name - is it significant? We saw that Voldemort's name was, and Jo often uses interesting names - Sirius, Remus Lupin, etc etc etc ad infinitum. Evil Draco - What about Animagus Draco? He's clever, and other people with animal type names do it - Draco the Dragon? I wonder though - in some final confrontation btwn the Death Eaters and Dumbledore's crowd - would Draco, ordered by Dad and Voldemort, really be able to lift his wand and kill Harry? He's petty, cruel, spoiled and sly, the magical answer to Dudley, but is he really that evil? Robyn, who's still trying to get Molly a job ; - ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From g_keddle at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 15:14:56 2001 From: g_keddle at yahoo.com (g_keddle at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:14:56 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <9mlioa+ri83@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mll9g+kep8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25156 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) I thought of the Evil Overlord thread and lol last night when Blackadder said "Ah, it's the Evil Villian In Love With His Own Voice." > > Plot Devices that Get Funnier and Better the More Times They're > Repeated: ill-fated DADA professors. I agree. It's like the exploding drummers in Spinal Tap. (I fear I've just dated myself horribly.) > > Things I'm Hoping Will Turn into Plot Devices (this is a subset of Red > Flags): F & G's wheezes. Agreed here too. I'd like to see the twins provide more than comic relief (although I refuse to entertain speculation that one of them will die.) Gert From alexanderpotter at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 15:21:57 2001 From: alexanderpotter at yahoo.com (alexanderpotter at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:21:57 -0000 Subject: News? Message-ID: <9mllml+lt5v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25157 Hi everyone.... I am pretty new to this site and was just looking around today. I was wondering if anyone had some good news about the HP books or the movie? If you do------Please share!!! From bkdelong at pobox.com Thu Aug 30 15:27:53 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:27:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] News? In-Reply-To: <9mllml+lt5v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010830112651.04b6eec0@brain-stream.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25158 At 03:21 PM 08/30/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Hi everyone.... > >I am pretty new to this site and was just looking around today. I >was wondering if anyone had some good news about the HP books or the >movie? > >If you do------Please share!!! I just posted some news about new possible book titles for book 6 and 7: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ -- B.K. DeLong The Harry Potter Galleries http://www.hpgalleries.com/ Editor-in-Chief The Leaky Cauldron News section bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ +1.617.877.3271 From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 15:29:55 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:29:55 -0000 Subject: 50 Ways to Ditch Your DADA In-Reply-To: <9mljnh+t5g2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mlm5j+s4k5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25159 Haggridd wrote: On that note, I wonder why > some suggested DADA teachers will turn out to be unsuitable: Fleur, > Mrs. Figg, the apocryphal "Romulus" Lupin. Any ideas, people? The "Romulus" theory is a new one by me. I'll add in Robyn's suggestions: Prof. Grubbly-Plank, Molly. I haven't got JKR's imagination, so my list will be short, but what I love about this plot device is that every year you know the prof. isn't going to last, but she comes up with a different reason each year. So the first rule is that the next three DADA professors can't turn out to be DEs, part-humans, fakes who lose their memory, or people with Voldemort attached to the back of their heads. The second rule is no repeating the actual teacher. I'm the first person to bang on the table and demand more Lupin, but not as DADA professor. However, since we haven't seen the real Moody, I think he is a fine candidate. In fact, it would be very interesting to see how he contrasts with his imitator. The third rule is that the book 5 and 6 DADAs have to be gone by the end of books 5 and 6, respectively. The 7th year one could break the mold. That would rule out Harry for the "8th-year" DADA spot, unfortunately; I still think Harry would make a great DADA professor, but if he's headed for that job after graduation it will be very ominous, assuming the previous seven have all come to some sort of end-of-year disaster. So, on to other ways to dispose of DADAs: They get married and move away. (Fleur or "Romulus" would be good candidates for this fate.) They have such a deleterious effect on half their students that even though they're terrific teachers, it just isn't going to work out. (Fleur) They die. Okay, Quirrell died, but he would've been sacked anyway, not to mention sent to Azkaban, so it isn't the *reason* he didn't come back. (Not allowed for Molly) They dabble in Animagic and can't get back to their human form. (Also not allowed for Molly) They go off on an important mission that only they can accomplish, like Hagrid. They try it for a year and realize that they really do love Potions best. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!" said Fred indignantly. "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying git," said George. "Isn't he, Harry?" "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly. --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire ---------------------------------------------------------- From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 30 16:11:31 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:11:31 -0000 Subject: PDW"DO"WTSAFAB (was Re: PDWDWTSAFAB) In-Reply-To: <9mljnh+t5g2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mlojj+mdju@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25160 --- - In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > The Time Turner (Cindy) > > Veritaserum (Cindy) > > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > > Dobby and Winky (Luce) > > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) > > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) > > The Pensieve (Haggrid) Can I please take just one more arrow out of Jo's quiver? No more Whomping Willow. Please? Pretty please? Cindy From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Aug 30 16:21:45 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:21:45 -0000 Subject: Draco Is Definitely Evi In-Reply-To: <9mksjo+r8jc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mlp6p+jpsh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25161 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote: > I certainly think Draco has the *potential* for evil - saw a news > photo a few days ago of a little boy, maybe 8 or 9, with his > parents at a neo-Nazi parade, and the kid had his arm out in the > Nazi salute. I wanted to strangle the parents, *not* the boy. I > doubt he really understands what that salute means (and has > meant in the past) to millions of people, but he's well on his > way to becoming as foul as his parents. Likewise, Draco is > certainly starting down the right road with his racist views and his > (at present) love of power for its own sake. He could reform, but > I'm not sure what it would take to do it - I suspect nothing less > than the death of one of his parents at the hands of Voldemort or > one of his followers. A re-read of the Polyjuice Potion chapter of CoS confirms that Draco is already about as evil as one can get and still be so young. Upon news of the opening of the Chamber of Secrets, Malfoy tells Ron and Harry (disguised as Crabbe and Goyle) that his father told him about the Chamber legend, specifically, that a "mudblood had died the last time it [the chamber] was opened." Draco's next words are as telling as any you'll hear. He says, paraphrasing accurately, "I hope somebody dies this time. I hope it's that Hermione Granger." Wishing someone dead, just for the sport of it, is about as evil as you can get. As for redemption, I agree with the posts of others that the death of his father might bring him around, but I disagree that his mother is any more of a positive force. Just because she got Lucius to agree to Hogwarts instead of Durmstrang does not mean there is an ounce of good in her. She may just prefer her "old school colors". Evil lieutenants like Malfoy are known to give in to the demands of their social climbing missus'. Finally, in response to a thread concerning Lucius turning on Voldemort and backstabbing him in an attempt to become THE Evil Overlord, caution is urged: 1) Lucius is not stupid, and taking on the most powerful Dark Wizard ever without being one hundred percent sure of victory is stupid, so he would have to be presented a perfect opportunity, a la the doctor in the climactic scene of Hannibal ("just push him in, you can blame it on me"); 2) Evil lieutenants rarely desire the notoriety nor the scrutiny that the spotlight at center stage brings, they actually often prefer working behind some mentally less well balanced person who will take all the responsibility (and, most likely, the fall); 3) Evil lieutenants like to keep their options open; they know that most evil plans fail, and they want to leave room to "come back" to the good side, just as Malfoy did the first time. Being number one precludes any comebacks and greatly reduces opportunities for mercy, forgiveness etc. Lucius is neither more scary nor more dangerous than Voldemort. He is simply less courageous, less overtly deadly, and in an odd way, less honorable. Lucius would never have dueled fairly with Harry. In fact, his son Draco cheated in the Dueling Club match with Harry. Like father, like son. 4FR (sceptical of the potential goodness of the Malfoys) From heraldtalia at juno.com Thu Aug 30 16:33:22 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:33:22 -0400 Subject: What's an adult - censorship of children's reading. Message-ID: <20010830.123337.-194551.1.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25162 Penney wrote > The stronger part of my > argument, though, was that Cedric and Fleur, both of whom were over > 17, 'of age' according to Dumbledore, were referred to in GoF > as 'boy' and 'girl'. This doesn't argue that JKR thinks of them as > full fledged adults; at least it doesn't seem so to me. >Might be that she used the terms "boy" and "girl" more because they are >still students rather than a reflection that she still considers them to 0 >be "children." There's also Harry's POV to consider. He sees them as >students and therefore as a boy and girl rather than a man & woman. >Jennifer K raised some points about adult supervision of childrens' >reading materials. I was actually a voracious reader as a child, and I >read at far beyond my age level. Like Bente, I read Gone with the Wind >in the 3rd grade in fact. But, I was the child of nonreaders. My >parents eventually just let me read whatever I wanted, with little or no >input from them. Despite the fact that I am a huge reader, I'd like to >think that I won't censor my children's reading materials. My arguments >about the later volumes of HP maybe not being appropriate for younger >children is more to point out that I don't agree with the >characterization of the series as a childrens' series -- not that I am >in favor of censoring the material from children who are ready to read >it. I just don't think that very many children will fully appreciate >the complexities of the later volumes ... or at least what I expect will >be the complexities of the later volumes given GoF. I will >absolutely allow my kids to read HP at whatever age they can read the >words, but I don't imagine that they will fully appreciate it until they >are older. I too read books as a child that I appreciate more *now* >when I re-read them. >I think I rambled a bit above. But, I did want to clarify that I'm >absolutely against censorship of reading materials. I think it's a good >idea for parents to be actively involved in discussing books with kids >(but not prohibiting them outright). >Not sure I made any sense at all.... >Pennye You made a lot of sense, and I agree with most of what you said. : - ) I was a voracious reader as a child and there's no way I would have stopped reading Harry Potter just because the series got more advanced. But I object to this whole idea of arbitrary classification into categories of children's literature, etc. After all, there's a strong history of "children's literature" containing multifaceted aspects that make it appropriate for adults. Mother Goose is a wonderful case in point. So are Madeline L'Engle's books. I first read them in fifth grade and enjoyed them. I reread them in high school and then in college, and they kept on taking on philosophical overtones that I never picked up on. As far as children's literature being about children, and adult literature being about adults - I hope I misunderstood that part of this conversation. Excuse me? I can think of a lot of adult literature about children. Think "The Little Prince." Also, think Toni Morrisson's "The Bluest Eye." The stark realism of that book is made so much more effective BECAUSE it is portrayed, and so vividly, through the eyes of a child. And that is NOT a book I would recommend to your average sixth grader, though that 's the age of the characters. In GoF, Fleur and Cedric are "girl" and "boy" respectively, because they are still in school. Like the recent NY Little League scandal, they would not be eligible to compete if they were legally adult. But so what, even if they are? Older, more capable students, even students who seem on the cusp of adulthood, seems to be something many children can relate to. I remember a scene from some movie, nothing important, where the protagonist was going to fight the prototypical school yard bully, a fourteen year old, and he said "Of course I'm scared of him. He has pubic hair." As far as censorship goes - I will monitor my daughter's reading carefully. However, if she is a serious reader, she'll get around that, and it will be fine. I'm speaking from the vantage point of a serious reader. I read Great Expectations in sixth grade and did a book report on it. My teacher was convinced it was plagiarism (although there was no Internet around yet to assume I downloaded the paper) I told her to test me on any aspect of the book, at which point she confessed she hadn't read it.......................... A serious reader will grow, or reach up, and follow the book. A less serious reader will read for the action only, and still get the main points, the excitement and all the frills. Hopefully, the intelligent less capable reader will reread the books again in adulthood. (I certainly reread Anna Karenina, which I read in seventh grade. I was kinda innocent, and I missed some of the, shall we say, finer points...) A really serious reader knows when she is out of her depth, and forges on anyway - that's how you create depth. I'm glad the books are going to get more challenging. The incentive of "the magic of Harry Potter" may serve to get some average readers to stretch their mental muscles a bit. That can only be a good thing. Robyn From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 30 16:46:05 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:46:05 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's and Voldemort's wands Message-ID: <9mlqkd+4vlt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25163 I hope you'll indulge me a bit on this priori incantantem wand order business, which I am aware has been done to death. I'm aware of the correction, I've read the FAQs, I've read lots of messages, but things still don't add up for me. When Voldemort's wand regurgitates spells, they are: screams, hand, screams, Cedric, screams, Frank Bryce, Bertha, Lily, James. But the text doesn't match up with this if Voldemort's wand is doing all the work at the graveyard. Wormtail performs two other bits of magic. After killing Cedric, he "conjured tight cords around Harry", tying him to the headstone. Then, after Wormtail brings out the cauldron, "Wormtail was busying himself at the bottom of the cauldron with a wand. Suddenly there were cracking flames beneath it." So what's going on? If Wormtail used V's wand to conjure ropes and start a fire, those spell should come out of V's wand. It is possible, of course, that Wormtail conjured the ropes without a wand. I think the only example we have of this is when Quirrel does it in PS/SS. Frankly, I always found this rather peculiar because Lupin, Dumbledore and Snape all need wands for this spell. But we are specifically told that Wormtail uses the wand to start the fire. Another theory is that Wormtail uses his own wand to conjure the ropes and start the fire, so that is why they don't come out of V's wand. But this is very odd, too. Wormtail uses V's wand to kill Cedric. So in the seconds between killing Cedric and grabbing Harry, are we supposed to believe that Wormtail puts V's wand down and starts using his own? Why would he do that? If that is what JKR intends, then we know for a fact that Wormtail still has his own wand. My theory is that this could be another mini-glitch in the priori incantantem, and fire and ropes should have flown out of V's wand during the duel (would have been really dramatic, too). But that's just my theory. Cindy ------------- "They run off eckeltricity, do they?" he said knowledgeably. "Ah yes, I can see the plugs. I collect plugs," he added to Uncle Vernon. "And batteries. Got a very large collection of batteries. My wife thinks I'm mad, but there you are." GoF. From vderark at bccs.org Thu Aug 30 16:47:52 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:47:52 -0000 Subject: News? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010830112651.04b6eec0@brain-stream.com> Message-ID: <9mlqno+7koi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25164 I second what B.K. just posted. I heartily recommend The Leaky Cauldon for the very latest and most accurate HP news. I wouldn't go anywhere else. Find it at: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From cassandraclaire at mail.com Thu Aug 30 16:53:59 2001 From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:53:59 -0000 Subject: Draco is Evil In-Reply-To: <9mlp6p+jpsh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mlr37+n7hf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25165 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: "A re-read of the Polyjuice Potion chapter of CoS confirms that Draco > is already about as evil as one can get and still be so young. Upon news of the opening of the Chamber of Secrets, Malfoy tells Ron and > Harry (disguised as Crabbe and Goyle) that his father told him about the Chamber legend, specifically, that a "mudblood had died the last time it [the chamber] was opened." Draco's next words are as telling as any you'll hear. He says, paraphrasing accurately, "I hope somebody dies this time. I hope it's that Hermione Granger." Wishing someone dead, just for the sport of it, is about as evil as you can get. *Raises eyebrows* Just saying you want someone dead is more evil than actually sending someone into danger (i.e. Sirus in MWPP times?). This seems extreme, especially since Draco is obviously showing off for his friends and just as obviously doesn't have the faintest idea who the Heir actually is or what his father's been up to. Ron says in book four that he wishes that they went to Durmstrang so he could throw Malfoy off a glacier, presumably to his demise. Does this make him evil? "Lucius would never have dueled fairly with Harry. In > fact, his son Draco cheated in the Dueling Club match with Harry. > Like father, like son." And Voldemort's duel with Harry was FAIR? An almost-immortal powerful evil wizard against a fourteen-year-old boy with a twisted ankle? Voldemort only started that duel because he knew he'd win, and he would not have lost had he known about the coincidence of the wands. As for Draco cheating during the Duelling match, he doesn't. He doesn't play nice, but neither does he cheat. He lets himself be assisted by Snape, but that's not cheating. Cassandra From heraldtalia at juno.com Thu Aug 30 16:49:16 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:49:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PDW"DO"WTSAFAB (was Re: PDWDWTSAFAB) Message-ID: <20010830.124931.-194551.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25166 On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:11:31 -0000 cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes: > --- - In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > > The Time Turner (Cindy) > > > Veritaserum (Cindy) > > > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > > > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) > > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > > > Dobby and Winky (Luce) > > > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) > > > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) > > > The Pensieve (Haggrid) > Whomping Willow (Cindy) I'll go with past, present and future selves. Please, please, pleae, let's not have a future Harry who orchastrated the whole thing (a la Terminator) Robyn From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 30 17:13:50 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:13:50 -0000 Subject: Draco is Evil In-Reply-To: <9mlr37+n7hf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mls8e+fv9r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25167 ----- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > "A re-read of the Polyjuice Potion chapter of CoS confirms that Draco > > is already about as evil as one can get and still be so young. > As you know, I'm in the "Draco is evil and always will be" camp. Part of that feeling is that it may be true that Draco has only done small things to date and he hasn't succeeded in any of his devious schemes. But the point is he is surely the most evil student at Hogwarts at the moment. There is no student more evil than Draco at the school. So the fact that he isn't as evil as he could be doesn't convince me that he's not plenty evil right to his core. He is Evil- In-Training, and he'll be seriously bad when he learns a bit more. Second, I think Voldemort's duel with Harry was a fair fight. After all, Harry won, didn't he? Maybe Harry should have given Voldemort a handicap, like golf. :) From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Thu Aug 30 17:23:15 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:23:15 -0400 Subject: Cloaks in pockets, pockets in coats Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B053CA@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 25168 Amy Z punned, and then responded: > This isn't the only mention of pretty > large things > fitting into pockets, though I can't remember any specific > examples other > than wands. I always imagine that robes have big internal > pockets, like the > inside breast pockets of overcoats except even bigger. > I still think there's a tesseract in his trousers if a cloak fits in there. This has got to be a full circle cloak, and probably (since it was James's) pretty long as well. I believe she talks about it dragging the ground at times, and Harry and Ron picking up the hem to avoid tripping on it because of its length and size. There have to be at least 6-7 yards of fabric in this cloak. I wear cloaks in the SCA. They're big. Even if they're thin fabric, and folded up, they're bulky. Hagrid's overcoat pockets are established to be deep, but he is also a very large person. And you are correct that if most wands are between 8 and 13 inches, the pockets in robes must also be deep, but are they large enough to hold a full cloak? The only explanation I can actually think of it that he shrank the cloak before putting it in, and Rowling just didn't describe it. [Sidenote: I'm not convinced of the wisdom of putting wands in pockets, anyway. Lupin wore a belt and tucked his wand there, but still. I remember borrowing my grandfather's conducting baton, not realizing how brittle it was. It snapped before I got to the bus stop. Wands obviously can't be that fragile, but Ron's broke at the tip in the crash, so I wouldn't be surprised if a wand could accidentally snap riding around in a pocket.] Anyway, I still have trouble suspeding my disbelief on this point. It's just unlikely. Gwen From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 17:21:41 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:21:41 -0000 Subject: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'? In-Reply-To: <9mjdf4+lct3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mlsn5+7c5a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25169 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hoshi_hime55 at h... wrote: > I really don't think that we have enough information to judge > if Draco is evil or not. We know that, on the outside, he's > mean, sarcastic and cold but does that really tell us that he's > evil? We know is father is a Death Eater but that doesn't mean > that Draco is one or wants to be. I've always figured that Draco is just a prejudiced, spoiled bully who probably would run and hide the first time he got "dirtied" by any kind of true evil. He just wants to look good to (or pattern) his father, who means everything to him. And since Daddy is a Death Eater, Draco would probably want to be one, if only connect with him. But since Draco was an infant when Harry "defeated" Voldemort, Draco has no idea what the DE's really represent, or what true evil really is. > I also think that Rowling will severely hurt her popularity if > she makes Draco two dimensional and evil. I know that I would be > annoyed. I'd have no problem if Draco were evil - but not two-dimensional. Give us a fleshed out baddie!!! I think it's possible that Draco will have to decide if he wants to be truly evil in future books. Since Draco is a Slytherin, it will be interesting to see where his ambition takes him. > I think that you may be right with the Ginny thing. Draco will > probably need to fall in love with someone that we like in order to > make his becoming good more believable. It might not be Ginny > though, maybe it's Hermione. I hope that doesn't happen; it would > break my H/H ship! Oh wow. Can't even think about Draco & Ginny. Going blind now. Disrupting my iron-clad H/G ship....But I'd like to see Draco find the love of a "good woman". And BTW - what's the status of Percy & Penelope, I ask you? > Since you mentioned Crabbe and Goyle, I'm going to say that I > don't think that they're evil, just stupid. While it is possible to > be both, I don't think that it's likely. If they did join the Death > Eaters, it would just be because someone told them to, not because > they were really evil. Since we now know (thanks to GoF, Ch.33) that Mr. Crabbe & Mr. Goyle are Death Eaters, I'd figure that Jr's Crabbe & Goyle are also trying to follow in their fathers' footsteps. But don't discount the possibility that they are truly evil - stupidity and ignorance can lead to all kinds of evil. And stupidity and ignorance C&G have in spades. Perhaps Draco will leave "the dark side" due to something C&G will do that rocks Draco's whole system of belief? > For some reason I can't see them actually being in Slytherin. They > don't seem very ambitious, do they? I think that JKR placed them in > Slytherin because she figured we wouldn't mind if they were in > the "evil" house, even though they didn't fit the house's > qualifications. > Sincerely, > Procyon White Hmmmm - I'm holding judgement on C&G's ambition right now. JKR hasn't given us enough to work with character-wise with those two. Just because they have the intelligence of swamp dirt doesn't necessarily mean they aren't ambitious; they just wouldn't be able to successfuly carry out anything "meaningful" that would advance them. They would need a thinker to do that for them, and ride on that person's coattails. Perhaps Mr. Crabbe & Mr. Goyle do the same with Lucius? - Denise (who still audibly hisses everytime Draco enters a scene) From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 17:32:25 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:32:25 -0000 Subject: The "Hitler Youth" (was: Re: Is Draco Evil & a true enemy of Harrys'?) In-Reply-To: <9mjgne+aan2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mltb9+dku5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25170 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., v_hayrabedian at y... wrote: > Secondly -- I can't speak about the three forthcoming books, but if > Draco is on the Quidditch team, then I would assume that physical > examinations would be necessary. How, exactly, would he hide the > dark mark from Madame Pomfrey? Hmmm - since the Dark Mark(s) only started to appear when Voldy had the strength to call his DE's to him, I'd guess that IF (big old IF) Draco is a DE, that the mark would not be visible. But if it is there, it would be visible next term for Madame Pomfrey to see.... > the kiddies could be all hi ho about wanting to grow up to be Death Eaters, but until they had actually proved themselves - and their strength - nothing would be done to solidify their involvement. Good point!! I think that the kids of current DE's (and any other kiddies who are in that frame of mind) are just wannabes right now. The next few books will probably be about our beloved (and unbeloved) characters choosing sides - and I'm dying to see where everyone will sort out! - Denise (who is giving serious thought to never trusting anyone who wears long sleeves in the summer) From tillrules at aol.com Thu Aug 30 17:36:59 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:36:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco is Evil Message-ID: <141.c74f9c.28bfd3bb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25171 I don't see any doubt that Draco is evil. He is inarguably a racist and contiually acts in a malicious manner. He takes joy out of ruining other's lives and in seeing others hurt. I think the comparison of Ron's offhand joke about throwing Draco off a glacier to Draco's hope that the next person to die is Hermione is innacurate for one reason: Liklihood of occurrance. Ron's joke regarded the extremely unlikely fictional situation of both of them being at Durmstrang and being in that situation. It's a practically impossibility. On the other hand, in the midst of an ongoing series of accidents, Draco hopes that Hermione will be next, purely due to her "mudblood" status. This is not some offhand joke about an impossibility. This is a very real wish that a likely event (given the history of the Heir) occur. Add to this, the dozens of times in which Draco took joy in causing injury to others, and its pretty clear that Draco is purely evil Also, I find the Sirius comparison invalid. I will not argue that Sirius committed one evil act (the trick on Snape), but that does not make him evil. Nor would one evil act stamp Draco as evil. The difference (from what we know in the canon) is that Sirius committed only that one evil act, where as Draco's sole purpose is to be evil. Sirius is continually portrayed as being someone who will help others, to the point of risking his life & freedom to be near Harry for GoF. On the other hand, Draco seems to favor no one but himself. He even mistreats and disrespects his "friends." He continues to take joy in the sufferrings of others. Also, if he is not evil, why does he take such joy at the end of GoF with the return of Voldemort? He taunts Harry & friends about the return and the persecutions that will follow. The boy is evil through and through. From curleytop72us at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 17:50:02 2001 From: curleytop72us at yahoo.com (Diane Julien) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <20010830175002.72458.qmail@web20309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25172 Please unsubscribe hpforgrownups at yahoogroups.com Diane Julien My e-mail address is curleytop72us at yahoo.com Thanks! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From cassandraclaire at mail.com Thu Aug 30 17:55:44 2001 From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:55:44 -0000 Subject: Draco is Evil In-Reply-To: <141.c74f9c.28bfd3bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <9mlun0+cee6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25173 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > I don't see any doubt that Draco is evil. He is inarguably a racist and contiually acts in a malicious manner. He takes joy out of ruining other's lives and in seeing others hurt." I have not yet noted Draco ruining anyone's life. And no one is arguing that he isn't a rotten little bastard. Just that if JKR wanted to redeem him, she could; he hasn't done anything so far to render him irreedeemable. And yes, he's a lousy little racist. Doesn't mean he always will be one. "I think the comparison of Ron's offhand joke about throwing Draco off a glacier to Draco's hope that the next person to die is Hermione is innacurate for one reason: Liklihood of occurrance. Ron's joke regarded the extremely unlikely fictional situation of both of them being at Durmstrang and being in that situation. It's a practically impossibility." *Shrug.* To an extent, that's true. I think if Ron had the opportunity and wouldn't get caught, he'd give Malfoy a good beating. And no, I don't think that makes him evil. My point is that verbally expressing that you wish someone was dead is miles from actually doing anything about it, especially when you are *twelve years old*, an age at which boys are prone to exaggeration and behaving as if they were worse than they are. "Also, I find the Sirius comparison invalid. I will not argue that Sirius committed one evil act (the trick on Snape), but that does not make him evil. Nor would one evil act stamp Draco as evil. The difference (from what we know in the canon) is that Sirius committed only that one evil act, where as Draco's sole purpose is to be evil. "Draco's sole purpose is to be evil?" He hasn't even done anything evil yet, he just says evil things. This seems a stretch, especially when we're only on Book 4 in a 7-book series. I wouldn't say I knew what any character's sole purpose was, be it Harry's, Ron's, or Draco's. "Sirius is continually portrayed as being > someone who will help others, to the point of risking his life & freedom to be near Harry for GoF." Yes. Sirius is now a 30+ year old grown-up man who has spent twelve years of his life in Azkaban among ruthless murderers and criminals. That would change anyone. Who is to say that he was like this when he was fourteen, as Draco is? It's an invalid comparison because Sirius is an adult and Draco is a child. Draco is not a fully realized human being; Sirius is. And I still maintain that what Sirius did was worse than anything Draco's done, and he seems to have turned out well. Rather gives me hope for the little Malfoy brat. "On the other hand, Draco seems to favor no one but > himself. He even mistreats and disrespects his "friends." Draco has friends? It looks to me like he just has flunkies. He seems a badly socialized child. > " Also, if he is not evil, why does he take such joy at the end of GoF with the return of Voldemort? Because that's the way he's been brought up, and he's a child and he believes what his parents told him. Do you think that Snape didn't feel righteous in becoming a Death Eater, in serving Voldemort, in recieving the Dark Mark, *before* he turned and changed sides? No one is saying that Draco is good, and not a dreadful child and a horrible nasty brat. All they are saying is that it might be possible for him to redeem himself, as Snape did. Cassandra From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 18:01:01 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:01:01 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 50 Ways to Ditch Your DADA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25174 Amy Z wrote: **I haven't got JKR's imagination, so my list will be short, but what I love about this plot device is that every year you know the prof. isn't going to last, but she comes up with a different reason each year. So the first rule is that the next three DADA professors can't turn out to be DEs, part-humans, fakes who lose their memory, or people with Voldemort attached to the back of their heads.** ~ - or people with Voldemort attached to the back of their heads.- I laughed outright when I read this linesending Pepsi squirting out my nose and onto my desk. (Oww.) I have to agree with you on this point, (nobly disregarding the burning pain you caused in my nose :)) I absolutely LOVE the revolving door of professors at Hogwarts. What better way to introduce new characters into the plot? And if we do see any DADA professors turn out to be DEs, part-humans, fakes who lose their memory, or (heres the big one:...)people with Voldemort attached to the back of their heads I will have a colossal hissy fit.then calmly return to my book and enjoy the way JKR portrays the new character, even though Ill hate that its not entirely original. But I dont think well have to worry about this anyway. **The second rule is no repeating the actual teacher. I'm the first person to bang on the table and demand more Lupin, but not as DADA professor. ** ~ Aha! Yet again, I must agree with you. It would be simply boring for Lupin to return to a position weve already seen him in. Lets be nice and allow poor Lupin to develop as a character by putting him into situations where we can see more of his true personality come out. **However, since we haven't seen the real Moody, I think he is a fine candidate. In fact, it would be very interesting to see how he contrasts with his imitator. ** ~ Hmmm Im not sure I agree here. Although it would be interesting, I absolutely LOVED Moody (well, the fake one anyway) and I dont want to be disappointed if Moody turns out to be not as great as Crouch portrayed him. Yes, I would like to see the real Moody, but I really dont want Crouch to be a better Moody than Moodyoh boy! I think I will only really like the true Moody if he really is as brash and unconventional as the fakey. If he is Im sure Ill love him! Sorry for this pretty prolonged and pretty pointless post Katie** Who ALWAYS loves Amy Zs quotes!! (Yes, I know I ramble, and YES! I DO love alliteration !) **************************************************************** 'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' And he fainted. **************************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 18:04:53 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:04:53 -0000 Subject: What's an Adult -- Censorship of Children's Reading Material In-Reply-To: <3B8E50EE.3000209@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9mlv85+ppmt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25175 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: I just don't think that very many children will fully appreciate > the complexities of the later volumes ... or at least what I expect will > be the complexities of the later volumes given GoF. I will > absolutely allow my kids to read HP at whatever age they can read the > words, but I don't imagine that they will fully appreciate it until they > are older. I too read books as a child that I appreciate more *now* > when I re-read them. I've been following this thread with interest, (after I had got over the initial shock that the whole "Are they children's books or not?" argument had reared its head again .) I totally agree with the above. I was, like Penny, one of those children who read whatever they wanted. Whenever my mother tried to censor my reading, I was (almost) always able to convince her to let me go ahead. This was, for me, a good thing. I think that one thing that this thread has shown is that all children are different. I have met children (admittedly, none under 11) who have a very good reading age, are very mature, and get almost as much out of the books as many of the adults I know who have read them. Conversely, I have two small family members (8 and 10) who are reading their way through the books as we speak. They do enjoy them and they do get very excited about what is going on in them - but I would say that they don't always understand what is going on, or at least are reading on a very superficial level and often need the complexities/subtleties of certain plotlines and relationships explained to them when it is obvious they have missed the point. I wouldn't stop them from reading them now - I just know that they will get much more out of them in a few years time, as I did when I went back and read certain things when I was older. The point is, though, that they are enjoying the books, and they don't realise that there is so much more to them than they currently perceive. It is all about reading things on certain levels. I am sure that in a few years time they will be amazed at the things they didn't pick up (like many of the adults on this list, including myself, who are constantly amazed what other people have noticed, which they have missed). It is this very point which makes me think that the books are not specifically children's books though, and so I am agreeing with Penny. There are many children's books which do operate on one level, when they are geared to a specific age group. Then there are children's books which appeal to adults, for various reasons, one of which is probably nostalgia. Then there are books which are not targetted at any particular audience, which appeal to adults and children alike. It is into this category which I would put Harry Potter, along with Tolkein and Philip Pullman, and numerous others I could think of. Question: Is it the fact that the books are fantasy based which makes them more marketable as children's books? Do the publishers aim them at children thinking that they are a larger target audience than those adults who like fantasy/sci-fi? I was just wondering this, because I can think of very few writers who generate this kind of discussion, who aren't writing within this particular genre. (Perhaps LM Montgomery is one?) Catherine From tillrules at aol.com Thu Aug 30 18:15:54 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:15:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco is Evil Message-ID: <8a.bdc38a4.28bfdcda@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25176 In a message dated 8/30/2001 11:02:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cassandraclaire at mail.com writes: << --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > I don't see any doubt that Draco is evil. He is inarguably a racist and contiually acts in a malicious manner. He takes joy out of ruining other's lives and in seeing others hurt." I have not yet noted Draco ruining anyone's life. And no one is arguing that he isn't a rotten little bastard. Just that if JKR wanted to redeem him, she could; he hasn't done anything so far to render him irreedeemable. And yes, he's a lousy little racist. Doesn't mean he always will be one. True enough, but there are certain things which are essentially unchangeable. Racism, in my view is one of them. To me, his attempts to get Hagrid fired, which he knows would be a crushing blow to a character that has very little life outside Hogwarts, does render him irredeemable. As I reader, I would have a very hard time accepting any gesture in which he acts in a positive manner for any reason but self interest to be very difficult to swallow. "I think the comparison of Ron's offhand joke about throwing Draco off a glacier to Draco's hope that the next person to die is Hermione is innacurate for one reason: Liklihood of occurrance. Ron's joke regarded the extremely unlikely fictional situation of both of them being at Durmstrang and being in that situation. It's a practically impossibility." *Shrug.* To an extent, that's true. I think if Ron had the opportunity and wouldn't get caught, he'd give Malfoy a good beating. And no, I don't think that makes him evil. My point is that verbally expressing that you wish someone was dead is miles from actually doing anything about it, especially when you are *twelve years old*, an age at which boys are prone to exaggeration and behaving as if they were worse than they are. Again, I find Draco's comments, given his racial attitudes to be more than "I'd like to sock someone" type 12 year old thoughts. He was wishing a real major injury on Herminone simply due to her background. I don't see it as being simply exagguration. "Also, I find the Sirius comparison invalid. I will not argue that Sirius committed one evil act (the trick on Snape), but that does not make him evil. Nor would one evil act stamp Draco as evil. The difference (from what we know in the canon) is that Sirius committed only that one evil act, where as Draco's sole purpose is to be evil. "Draco's sole purpose is to be evil?" He hasn't even done anything evil yet, he just says evil things. This seems a stretch, especially when we're only on Book 4 in a 7-book series. I wouldn't say I knew what any character's sole purpose was, be it Harry's, Ron's, or Draco's. Again, I look at his attempts to get Hagrid fired and his ongoing charade in that instance. Trying to get him fired when he knows how much the job means to Hagrid is simply evil for evil's sake. This is not some silly prank, it is a premeditated (JKR even has Harry note that Draco & his goons are planning something) attempt to maliciously injure someone. The point as to the eventual purpose is valid, but as of right nwo, he's solely eveil and I see no plausible way to redeem him (but then again JKR's a better writer than I am) "Sirius is continually portrayed as being > someone who will help others, to the point of risking his life & freedom to be near Harry for GoF." Yes. Sirius is now a 30+ year old grown-up man who has spent twelve years of his life in Azkaban among ruthless murderers and criminals. That would change anyone. Who is to say that he was like this when he was fourteen, as Draco is? It's an invalid comparison because Sirius is an adult and Draco is a child. Draco is not a fully realized human being; Sirius is. And I still maintain that what Sirius did was worse than anything Draco's done, and he seems to have turned out well. Rather gives me hope for the little Malfoy brat. But we have other evidence of Sirius at 14. He was supportive of Lupin and his status as a werewolf. He befreinded the essential friendless Peter. By all current canon, he was a nice kid who played pranks and did one evil thing. An evil which is not part of an ongoing pattern of spech and action. "On the other hand, Draco seems to favor no one but > himself. He even mistreats and disrespects his "friends." Draco has friends? It looks to me like he just has flunkies. He seems a badly socialized child. Hence my use of quotes. I agree here. > " Also, if he is not evil, why does he take such joy at the end of GoF with the return of Voldemort? Because that's the way he's been brought up, and he's a child and he believes what his parents told him. Do you think that Snape didn't feel righteous in becoming a Death Eater, in serving Voldemort, in recieving the Dark Mark, *before* he turned and changed sides? No one is saying that Draco is good, and not a dreadful child and a horrible nasty brat. All they are saying is that it might be possible for him to redeem himself, as Snape did. >> Possible, but not likely. Again, we know little of Snape's background. But Draco, thus far has shown no traits that indicate that he may be redeemable. Snape, the impression thus far has been was a weasely and unliked child with an interest in the Dark arts, it would be very easy for such a child to be drawn to a Drak Side that "accepted" him. We do not know that he was they type of child Draco is, kind of the kid who drowns puppies & cats to see them squirm. From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Thu Aug 30 18:35:11 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:35:11 -0400 Subject: Plot devices Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B053CE@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 25177 Actually, I'd like to express the opinion that some of these things are okay, as long as they're not major plot devices, on which the outcome of the story/mystery/books hinge. For example, I could deal with polyjuice potion, veritaserum, or the pensieve AS LONG AS they are of minor importance to the plot. Gwen From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 30 18:41:18 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:41:18 -0000 Subject: Plot Devices I Like and SEX in HP In-Reply-To: <9mlioa+ri83@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mm1ce+pggc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25178 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > Animagus (Ali) > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > The Time Turner (Cindy) > Veritaserum (Cindy) > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > Dobby and Winky (Luce) > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) > > The Pensieve. Great idea, but you only get to use it once, Jo. and Cynthia just added the Whomping Willow. Wow! You know what? I actually like almost all of these things. I mean, I stand by my statement that I don't want cookie-cutter bad or good guys, but I want someone else to become an Animagus, I want to see the Marauder's Map again, I get a kick out of Moaning Myrtle and I am wringing my hands in anticipation to find out what will become of the House Elf plight. I don't think JKR will use any of these plot devices the way she used them before, but I think most of them will still play a part in future stories. They are all part of the magic world, after all. Someone wrote that it might be interesting to learn how one does become an Animagus. I agree! Veritaserum can also be used again, but maybe not so seriously. As far as Polyjuice Potion goes, even though I know people groaned when they found out Moody was really Crouch, who suspected it? I didn't! I thought it was a nice contrast to the way the trio used PP in CoS. This time around it wasn't funny and it worked all too well. SEX- Bente wrote that she (I'm assuming you're a she, though I don't know why) wouldn't let a child read "The Story of O" because of the impression the book might make. Now, when I was a kid, we ALL read Judy Blume books - the dirtier, the better. I breezed through "Forever" but it sure didn't make me run out and have sex. If I did, I think it would have been due to other, more serious problems in my life, not simply because I wanted to live like a Judy Blume character. My mom had a rule in our house: No censorship of any kind. I read whatever I wanted and reading Judy Blume made no more impression on me than what I had to read for school. To look at it in relation to HP, I haven't seen on the news a story about some kid trying to fly a broomstick off the roof because he thought he could "fly like Harry Potter". When it comes to reading, we don't give kids enough credit. They really do know the difference between reality and fantasy, and they fantasize as much as *we* do. --jenny from ravenclaw******************** From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Aug 30 19:03:27 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:03:27 -0000 Subject: Draco is Evil In-Reply-To: <8a.bdc38a4.28bfdcda@aol.com> Message-ID: <9mm2lv+k3si@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25179 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > Draco, thus far has shown no traits that indicate that he may be redeemable. Snape, the impression thus far has been was a weasely and unliked child with an interest in the Dark arts, it would be very easy for such a child to be drawn to a Drak Side that "accepted" him. We do not know that he was they type of child Draco is, kind of the kid who drowns puppies & cats to see them squirm.> See now, I think you are giving little Draco Malfoy too much credit. I don't even think he is smart enough to know what he is talking about. I certainly don't think he'd even want to put his pale little hands on a puppy or a kitten for fear of getting dirty. Remember, Draco was very eager to befriend Harry and when Harry rejected him, he never got over it. He is wildly jealous of Harry even now. If Harry extended the hand of friendship to Draco, he'd take it in a second. As far as racism goes, it is very easy to be a racist when you have little contact with the groups you hate. My students have told me on more than one occasion that I changed their minds about Jewish people because they got to know me and I do not fit any stereotype that they grew up with. Draco has NEVER thought any of his stupid pranks or comments through, making it easy for him to hold the narrow minded beliefs he holds. He is a spoiled little sh*t, though. --jenny from ravenclaw **************************** From cassandraclaire at mail.com Thu Aug 30 19:06:09 2001 From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:06:09 -0000 Subject: Draco is Evil In-Reply-To: <8a.bdc38a4.28bfdcda@aol.com> Message-ID: <9mm2r2+rp5n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25180 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/30/2001 11:02:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > cassandraclaire at m... writes: > "But we have other evidence of Sirius at 14. He was supportive of Lupin and his status as a werewolf. He befreinded the essential friendless Peter. By all current canon, he was a nice kid who played pranks and did one evil . An evil which is not part of an ongoing pattern of spech and action." I'm on the run so will have to respond to the other points later, but I'd like to add that much has been made on this list previously regarding the essential heartlessness of Sirius' action vis-a-vis not just Snape but Lupin. He sent Snape off to be killed, yes, but he also set up Lupin, his friend, as the instrument of that particular murder. How would Lupin have felt once he found out what he had done? Not to mention that I doubt there'd be the slightest chance to keep Lupin in school after he'd shredded a fellow student. Back home he would be sent, to live out the rest of his life in guilt-ridden solitary misery. And did Sirius give that any thought? From available evidence, no. Do I think that makes Sirius evil? No, it was an evil thing to do but I don't think he's evil and he's certainly redeemed himself thoroughly since. Boys at that age are not necessarily likely to give their every action the greatest consideration, and are not known for in-depth psychological consideration, either. Ditto Draco as regards Hagrid: Would Draco stop to think that Hagrid has very little life outside Hogwarts, or would he just think of him as a teacher he hates, who is buddy-buddy with his worst enemy? Of Draco's various actions, that one doesn't strike me as the worst. Possibly this is because I don't much like Hagrid either. He really *isn't a very good CoMC teacher. I do think this falls under the category of nasty, malicious, but not exactly evil behavior as far as Draco is concerned. I maintain he's a child under the sway of his parents and probably doesn't think these things through. Cassandra From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 30 19:20:18 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:20:18 -0000 Subject: slightly OT: SEX (in HP) In-Reply-To: <9mm1ce+pggc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mm3li+8av1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25181 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > SEX- > Bente wrote that she (I'm assuming you're a she, though I don't know > why) I'm a she. wouldn't let a child read "The Story of O" because of the > impression the book might make. Now, when I was a kid, we ALL read > Judy Blume books - the dirtier, the better. I breezed through > "Forever" but it sure didn't make me run out and have sex. It isn't the sex I'm worried about so much as the sadism. > To look at it in relation to HP, I haven't seen on the news a story > about some kid trying to fly a broomstick off the roof because he > thought he could "fly like Harry Potter". Nor have I, but as we all know, flying a broomstick is impossible. When it comes to reading, > we don't give kids enough credit. They really do know the difference > between reality and fantasy, and they fantasize as much as *we* do. > Flying a broomstick may be fantasy, but torture and rape is unfortunately all too real, and speaking for myself and my kids, I'd prefer for them to wait until they're old enough to know right from wrong before they read books bombarding them with messages that sadism is OK. Sorry if I sound preachy or my opinion offends, but that's how I feel. However we all view the Potter books, whether we think they're childrens books or adult, suitable for younger or older children, I'm sure we all agree that they're ultimately wholesome books that laud friendship, loyalty, the triumph of good over evil, etc. In the process they tackle some heavy issues, like death and betrayal, but that's necessary in the context. They do not, however, imply that evil is right, good or desirable, or even something that should be tolerated. But I'll get off my soap-box now, and apologize once more if my opinion has offended anyone. Can we call it quits on this topic? Bente From tillrules at aol.com Thu Aug 30 19:20:41 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:20:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco is Evil Message-ID: <136.e1e1ba.28bfec09@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25182 In a message dated 8/30/2001 12:09:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, meboriqua at aol.com writes: << See now, I think you are giving little Draco Malfoy too much credit. I don't even think he is smart enough to know what he is talking about. I certainly don't think he'd even want to put his pale little hands on a puppy or a kitten for fear of getting dirty. Remember, Draco was very eager to befriend Harry and when Harry rejected him, he never got over it. He is wildly jealous of Harry even now. If Harry extended the hand of friendship to Draco, he'd take it in a second. As far as racism goes, it is very easy to be a racist when you have little contact with the groups you hate. My students have told me on more than one occasion that I changed their minds about Jewish people because they got to know me and I do not fit any stereotype that they grew up with. Draco has NEVER thought any of his stupid pranks or comments through, making it easy for him to hold the narrow minded beliefs he holds. He is a spoiled little sh*t, though. --jenny from ravenclaw **************************** >> Arguable, but now he's had 4 years of contact with "mudbloods." He is still keeping with the racist attitudes that he had espoused from his first appearence. I do believe that at 14 he is capable now of exercising his own discretion to a degree. He has been taught that all non-purebloods are bad. He is now experiencing what he had only previously heard about, i.e... interaction with non-purebloods. However, even after 4 years of such contact, he still holds entierly true to his racist beliefs. These are more than just what he was taught issues, these are ingrained attitudes that he sees no reason to change (unlike your friends who having met you as a Jew are revising their attitudes). The Harry question is interesting. I don't think Draco would take Harry' s hand now. In fact, that option ended the first time that Harry befriended Hermione. Draco now sees Harry as the worst sort of person, one who actually likes "mudbloods" (how many times has he refered to someone, like Harry or Dumbledore, negatively as a "mudblood lover"). I think now, there is no hope for Draco. From tillrules at aol.com Thu Aug 30 19:25:44 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:25:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco is Evil Message-ID: <14c.2f3a07.28bfed38@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25183 In a message dated 8/30/2001 12:14:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cassandraclaire at mail.com writes: << Would Draco stop to think that Hagrid has very little life outside Hogwarts, or would he just think of him as a teacher he hates, who is buddy-buddy with his worst enemy? Of Draco's various actions, that one doesn't strike me as the worst. Possibly this is because I don't much like Hagrid either. He really *isn't a very good CoMC teacher. I do think this falls under the category of nasty, malicious, but not exactly evil behavior as far as Draco is concerned. I maintain he's a child under the sway of his parents and probably doesn't think these things through. >> Again, I think he would. I see Draco as a schemer who does things to hurt people. Some large (like Hagrid), some small (like the rumors with Rita Skeeter). I do see the Hagrid thing as pretty unforgivable. He knows, through his father, Hagrid's history. I think all of the characters know how important the job is to Hagrid. I think trying to sabatoge Hagrid's class may have been little more than a prank, but to continue an ongoing charade of injury so that his father could have Hagrid removed, certainly qualifies as a planned attempt to hurt Hagrid. And to me, its things like that that show exactly how evil this kid is. Again, redemption is in theory possible, but JKR is goign ot have some serious work ahead of her to make me like the character. I find him to be contemptible and out and out evil, rather than simply being a snotty little s**t. From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Thu Aug 30 18:42:31 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:42:31 -0400 Subject: Arithmancy (Was ancient Runes, then a bunch of puns) Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B053CF@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 25184 I'm going to shamelessly plug my own theories here. In message 19287, I posted a lengthy discussion of Ancient Runes and Arithmancy. You can read the message here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/19287 Basically, my theory is that JKR did not intend arithmancy to be yet another form of divination but some other type of magic. I believe that this is the ceremonial or ritual magic which we have seen (in such rituals as Blood, Flesh, and Bone) but not yet witnessed the kids studying. Gwen From linman6868 at aol.com Thu Aug 30 19:28:20 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:28:20 -0000 Subject: What's an Adult -- Censorship of Children's Reading Material In-Reply-To: <9mlv85+ppmt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mm44k+kkqs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25185 catherine at c... wrote: > I've been following this thread with interest, (after I had got over > the initial shock that the whole "Are they children's books or not?" > argument had reared its head again .) I too follow these threads with interest, since I was also a child who buried herself in books of all types. And now I'm finally tempted to put my two Knuts in. Having always been an indiscriminate reader, I nevertheless understand the faint snobbery that people have toward books marketed to children (though I deplore it). No, many stories written for a child audience are *not* complicated plotwise; the characters are people who can be understood fairly quickly; the endings are often neat and well-ordered. But surely this is not limited to children's books. And simplicity of plot, character, and ending, if done well, are not necessarily signs that the book is, well, not good enough for us adults. For a single example, what about THE LITTLE PRINCE? I agree with all that was said about the layers of HP and how children will understand more layers as they grow. But the good explanations and arguments that have been made don't completely speak to the argument that usually starts these children's book threads: a) Children's stories are not dark. b) Harry Potter is a children's story. c) Therefore, JKR will not make the ending dark. Usually we quibble with (b) first. But hey, why not quibble with (a), as some people occasionally do? The Original Brothers Grimm -- chapbooks -- Foxe's Book of Martyrs, the schoolboy's prize -- TOM SAWYER and HUCKLEBERRY FINN, for crying out loud? Yes, I agree that all children are different. But still I think that children actually have a higher capacity for absorbing *dark* things than adults do. As a child I was frightened of death, but not nearly so much as I was of Ineffable Things. There is nothing Ineffable about death, and children know this. So if we persuade ourselves that JKR isn't going to make people die because it would be a betrayal to what children's literature is supposed to be like -- well, it might be a betrayal of the kind of literature that even children know to be insipid, but it wouldn't betray the older tradition of children's literature in the least. Well-meaning adults in earlier ages deliberately gave children dark things to read to put the fear of God into them; and the children, (if I know human nature at all) ate it up in a way the adults would not perhaps have anticipated or desired. The same well-meaning adults of this age would keep such dark things away from their children, to preserve their fragile psyches, and this meets with a similar result. I don't have a problem with people saying that Harry Potter is a children's story -- it has just about all the things that children (the unabashed swashbucklers, God speed them) like. What I do have a problem with is the idea that anything written to, or in the presence of, or concerned with, children should be free of All Scary, Dark, and Tragic Things. And sex. I would also venture to argue that children know more about sex than adults do -- at least, they know what counts, whereas the adults often forget. But that's by the by. Suffice it to say that the marketers are obviously thinking in manila folders, not people either young or old. And they don't seem to know their history either. Lisa I. From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Thu Aug 30 19:28:03 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:28:03 -0400 Subject: Black, Snape, Lupin, and the "joke" Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B053D0@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 25186 This is my last post for the day. Really. No really. Okay, there's been a lot of discussion recently about Sirius and the "joke." Here's my take: I don't know exactly what triggered Sirius to act that way (and I don't think it was a woman, Lily or otherwise), but he was obviously very cheesed with Snape over something. Perhaps it was simply a moment of weakness, or a cumulative frustration at Snape's constant badgering, but for whatever reason, I think Sirius snapped. Without thinking about it, he gave Severus the information he sought. "You wanna know? Fine. I'll tell you. Press the knot...." I believe that the moment Snape left him, he realized what he'd done, and regretted it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he went and told James out of shame and fear. He knew, at that point, that he couldn't stop Snape--Snape would not have believed him. ("Wait, Snape! Don't. It's a trap. I was hasty. I shouldn't have told you." Yeah, right. That would have stopped him.) James's horror rivaled _Sirius's own_ at what he'd just done, and the implications for both Snape and Lupin (though I believe Sirius continued not to care about Snape, it was Lupin's fate that worried him). It was a stupid, foolish, unthinking, childish thing to do. I believe that as soon as it happened, Sirius slapped his forehead and thought, "Holy crow. What am I, an idiot? A murderer?" and ran to James to help make it right. I think it's one of the biggest regrets of his life, and one of the hardest things he had to come to terms with--realizing that he is the kind of person who would put two people's lives at risk so callously. It made him grow up quick. And to think that he _could_ betray a friend like that is what made it so much easier for him to lose his mind when James and Lily died. I think it's another motivation behind his initial offer of Secret Keeper--to prove to himself he can keep the confidence of his friends. Then he screws it up again by giving it to Peter. I believe that next to losing James and Lily, this memory was the one that replayed itself in his mind most constantly in Azkaban. And I think it's something that still bothers him, that he's conscious of in making decisions to help Harry. He has a lot to make up for, and it's not just for trusting Peter. I think he is terrified that he will betray again. It's what makes him such an upstanding guy when he gets out--he's committed to making sure justice is done, even if that justice initially is a little insane and skewed. As for why he and Lupin have not been in more contact, ah. Well, thereby hangs a tale, which is of course only magnified if you subscribe to the "one true way" of Sirius and Remus. He's scared to reopen that old tie. He received an off-hand apology/forgiveness from Remus in the shack, but that was when there was still a job to do. In some respects, there's still a job to do, but he can't be certain, after all this time, that Remus really wants to be reminded of everything Sirius was. That _includes_ his actions when they were teens. This is something in his past he is deeply ashamed to have done--how can he be certain that Remus really forgives him after all? Especially since the whole wizarding world--including Remus--thought him the worst traitor of all for 12 years? Remus could easily have justified: Well, after all, he _did_ try to make me his smoking gun with Snape all those years ago. I believe he's capable of working for Voldemort. If Remus has thought those thoughts for 12 years, he might not be so eager to rekindle the friendship, no matter what he _said_ in the shack. It gets even stickier if you believe that at any point they were lovers. "Has Remus moved on? Does Remus want to start over? Do I? What the heck am I anymore?" Remember that Sirius has been in prison in a depressive, sensory-deprived environment for a long time. He's had no choices, no freedom. He needs to readjust to initiating his own decisions. It's easier to focus on Harry and correspond only with him and Dumbledore, fighting what is right in front of him, rather than trying to investigate age-old friendships that don't even necessarily feel real anymore. In short, and to return to my original point, I think both Sirius and Snape are essentially good guys. I don't think that Sirius's joke was justified, but neither do I think it makes him forever evil and irredeemable. He hasn't had a chance to be responsible yet since he's been out of Azkaban, and until we see how he handles the tasks Dumbledore is sure to put before him, I won't jump to conclusions about whether he's a mature adult or not. Certainly, if Snape can be considered mature, Sirius can. They both need to learn to suck it up and deal better, but at least Sirius has the excuse of being driven insane by Dementors. Snape, too, though, is righteous and has honour. He can be cruel ("I see no difference") and he can be provoking (all the crap he pulls on Harry about James), but when push comes to shove, he will do the right thing. He's a bitter, isolated, self-important man, but he is clearly on the side of good. Okay. Tear me apart, I'm ready! Gwen From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 19:41:20 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:41:20 -0000 Subject: I'm new to the community and have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mm4t0+rqnb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25187 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" wrote: > > > I actually WORK for Scholastic, and I have absolutely no idea. The current > estimated time of arrival is this upcoming July. But really, that's just > speculation. The actual progress of Book V is being kept very hush hush. > > Ali OH MY GOD NOOO, JULY, I'VE BEEN WAITING PATIENTLY FOR THE LAST YEAR FOR THE BOOK UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT IT WAS COMING OUT AT CHRISTMAS.......HOW CAN THIS BE. IT CANT TAKE ANOTHER YEAR.....nnnnoooooooooo -Mary (very very distressed at hearing this awful news....going away to find a brown paper bag in which to hyperventilate!!!) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Aug 30 19:59:02 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:59:02 -0000 Subject: I'm new to the community and have a question... In-Reply-To: <9mm4t0+rqnb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mm5u6+llje@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25188 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote: > > OH MY GOD NOOO, JULY, I'VE BEEN WAITING PATIENTLY FOR THE LAST YEAR > FOR THE BOOK UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT IT WAS COMING OUT AT > CHRISTMAS.......HOW CAN THIS BE. IT CANT TAKE ANOTHER > YEAR.....nnnnoooooooooo > -Mary (very very distressed at hearing this awful news....going away > to find a brown paper bag in which to hyperventilate!!!) Since someone raised this . . . What the heck could be taking so long? My CoS says it was published in 1999; PoA says 1999; GoF was summer 2000. I figured there would be a minor delay in OoF so that they don't flood the market with the movie and OoF in November -- but July 2002? Why is OoF, which is supposed to be shorter than GoF, taking twice as long? I know, I know, no one knows the answers. I'm just venting. Cindy From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Aug 30 20:00:43 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:00:43 -0000 Subject: Draco is Evil In-Reply-To: <8a.bdc38a4.28bfdcda@aol.com> Message-ID: <9mm61b+6ouk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25189 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > *Shrug.* To an extent, that's true. I think if Ron had the > opportunity and wouldn't get caught, he'd give Malfoy a good beating. Ron DID give Malfoy a beating in SS/PS during the Quidditch Match. Ron and Malfoy got into fisticuffs, then Neville jumped in and took on Crabbe AND Goyle. Draco's racism may or may not remain with him for the rest of his life. There's a possibility that he might truly change his anti-Muggle and Muggle-born feelings one day. And there's a possibility that he may never change and continue to loathe Muggles and Muggle-borns forever, only the remaining books will tell. Dumbledore rightly stated that it's the choices we make. So far, Draco hasn't made any choices that indicate he's on the road to accepting Muggles and Muggle-borns. In fact, his racism appears to grow more intense with each book (red herring or red flag?) With the return of Voldemort and the seemingly reactivation of the Death Eaters, it will be interesting to see how Draco evolves. Will he become the chairman of the Death Eaters Recruitment Bureau, Hogwarts Branch? Or will he reject the Death Eaters? I think the more ponder-ful question is 'has Draco shown, canonnically, that he has the strength of character to break from the Death Eaters and Voldemort?' Or is he the stereotypic bully who is really spineless without the support of his friends and will go along with Voldemort because he doesn't have the courage to break free? Milz From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 30 20:05:38 2001 From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:05:38 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB (you have to read it); was Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger?? In-Reply-To: <9mk8mi+btqo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mm6ai+dj8t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25190 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > > Ali Wildgoose wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > > ...... > > > > > > --Amanda > > > > > > > > > The Time Turner and (can I have two picks?) Veritaserum. > > > > Cindy (who thinks a Time Turner would just make her work twice as > > much) > > Moaning Myrtle > > Haggridd -a DADA teacher who lasts only one year--and then turns out to be evil (Quirrel, and Crouch Jr. as Moody) or incompetent (Lockhart) **Sharlene From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 20:11:31 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:11:31 -0400 Subject: Fifth Book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25191 >From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com > >What the heck could be taking so long? My CoS says it was published >in 1999; PoA says 1999; GoF was summer 2000. I figured there would >be a minor delay in OoF so that they don't flood the market with the >movie and OoF in November -- but July 2002? Why is OoF, which is >supposed to be shorter than GoF, taking twice as long? > >I know, I know, no one knows the answers. I'm just venting. >From what I can imagine (and remember that this is speculation), JKR has spent quite a bit of time answering questions regarding the movie. She was consulted about it and provided a lot of information to the screenwriter and director. She also had to take time to write the two Comic Relief books, QTTA and FB. Furthermore, I imagine that she's bothered quite a bit by the media for interviews and such. All of this added up takes for a much longer wait for OotP. Yeah, it stinks. I wonder when JKR would have released the book if there hadn't been the movie and the Comic Relief books. But I'm fully prepared to wait if it means that she takes her time and turns out a truly fine next installation instead of running something off slapdash. ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Updated 8/17/01 "I am falling, I am fading, I am drowning, Help me to breathe..." - Boa, "Duvet" (From Serial Experiments Lain) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 20:11:50 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:11:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm new to the community and have a question... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25192 >What the heck could be taking so long? My CoS says it was published >in 1999; PoA says 1999; GoF was summer 2000. I figured there would >be a minor delay in OoF so that they don't flood the market with the >movie and OoF in November -- but July 2002? Why is OoF, which is >supposed to be shorter than GoF, taking twice as long? Well, for starters, it seems that OoF will be as long - or longer - than GoF. And since we all know how rushed that volume seemed in places, the editing process will probably be more careful this time around. Also, think of all the side projects Rowling's been handed. There's the movie, which she's thankfully been very involved with; the two schoolbooks; and in September her autobiography will be released, no doubt a further attempt by Scholastic to keep the Pottermania going full-force. Will all this to do on the side, it's no wonder Book V is a little slow in the coming. :P Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From joym999 at aol.com Thu Aug 30 20:23:55 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:23:55 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #13 Message-ID: <9mm7cr+a27k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25193 The current contest (#13) is still on! I am, as usual, extending the contest deadline for another week because I dont have a new contest ready. Send in your entries by Weds, Sept. 4, and I will have another exciting contest for you on Friday Sept. 6, an acrostic (double cross) puzzle, in fact. Here is contest #13, which is especially for L.O.O.N.s: If you are on webview, you have undoubtedly seen the ads for the Literary Guild, one of those book clubs which offers you a introductory bunch of books for less than a dollar each (plus undisclosed shipping and handling fees which in my experience turn out to be exorbitant) and then sends you a crummy, overpriced bestseller each month for years. They are offering all four HP books as part of their introductory promotion, and their website has an impressively bad description of each. Apparently, the Literary Guild is not profitable enough to pay real editors or proofreaders, so the CEO's illiterate nephew is writing their promotional materials. As a result, their descriptions of each book are a nitpicker's paradise. (Although they are not quite as poorly written as the HP character descriptions on the Warner Brothers website, which I can't even bring myself to finish reading.) Hence, this week's contest, which was suggested by alert nitpicker Julia (jstein103 at aol.com). How many mistakes can you find in the Literary Guild's book descriptions? Any kind of error is fair game ? spelling, punctuation, grammar, writing style, or factual. Unless the error is painfully obvious, please explain why you think it is wrong. All contestants finding more than 25 acceptable errors receive automatic L.O.O.N. membership (except for David Frankis). Email your response (or any questions) to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com, and then email it again if you don't receive an acknowledgment that I've received it. Here are the Literary Guild's descriptions of the four books: HARRY POTTER AND THE GOBLET OF FIRE Headline: Harry Potter is back! The wildly popular phenomenon continues The excitement and anticipation for the next Harry Potter adventure is growing in leaps and bounds. What wild and wonderful escapades await the little wizard? The fourth in the phenomenally popular Harry Potter series begins with the young wizard turning 14, but rumor has it that one of his friends may not make it through to see his birthday celebration. You'll have to read to find out the juicy details! HARRY POTTER AND THE PRISONER OF AZKABAN Harry Potter returns with his friends for their third year at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. And boy, are their hands full! As with all third years of study, there is much more work to do and the pressure is on. As if that wasn't bad enough, Harry finds out that an evil wizard has escaped from Azkaban prison and is after him! Combine that with having to live with his horrid aunt, uncle and annoying cousin Dudly and it's enough to make the head on Harry's flying broom spin. Can Harry outsmart the evil wizard and save his friend's beloved pet from a death sentence? HARRY POTTER AND THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS There has never been, in the history of U.S. publishing, a children's book phenomena like J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Her debut novel has already spent six months on The New York Times bestseller list! With new torments and horrors and a little magic "floor" powder, Harry and his chums return once again, casting a spell ovr children and adults alike. Harry's about to start his second year at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft ad Wizardry. But from day one, it seems he's going to have his hands full. There's a stuck-up new professor, Gilderoy Lockheart; a more determined Draco Malfoy; a spirit named Morning Myrtle who haunts the girls' bathroom, and the unwanted attentions of Ron Weasley's younger sister, Giny. But that's nothing--the real problem arises when Hogwart students begin turning into stone! Who could be so evil? May it's Hagrid the Gamekeeper? Or maybe even Harry himself? J.K. Rowling has become as famous for her monsters and wizards as she has for the way her first novel, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, was conceived. Scribbling on scraps of paper, Towling wrote most of the manuscript sitting in a cafe while her infant daughter napped beside her! The magic is back! HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE Remember that magical feeling you got the first time you read Roald Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? I never expected to feel that way about a book again--until I 'met' 11-year-old orphan, Harry Potter. Originally, I brought the book home for my finicky 10-year- old nephew, David. But it wasn't long before I found myself sneaking off to read it myself. J.K. Rowling swept me away to a mystical world of powerful wizards, deadly plants, potent potions, gentle giants and beautiful unicorns. Already a huge hit overseas, Harry is poised to take America by storm. Here's your chance to say that you and your family read Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone before it became a classic. Harry's is an adventure that is not to be missed! From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Aug 30 20:33:11 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:33:11 -0000 Subject: Draco is Evil In-Reply-To: <9mm61b+6ouk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mm7u7+s05r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25194 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > I think the more ponder-ful question is 'has Draco shown, > canonnically, that he has the strength of character to break from > the Death Eaters and Voldemort?' Or is he the stereotypic bully who > is really spineless without the support of his friends and will go >along with Voldemort because he doesn't have the courage to break > free? What a Ponderful question :0)! I don't believe Draco has displayed the slightest inclination to resist the Dark Wizards. Not only is the return of Voldemort a cause for celebration, in his mind, he clearly expects his family to benefit from Voldemort's return. One would have to conclude that he KNEW his father had something to do with the second opening of the Chamber. He clearly knew that his father was out torturing the muggles at the Quidditch world championships in GoF. AND he is proud of the fact. Draco is the embodiment of the "Hitler Youth" charaterization, and he is no one-dimensional foil either. He, like his father, has some craft, is relentless in his hate, and ever vigilant in defense of his false superiority. He wants Voldemort to win, because that's the direction he has accepted for his own future. By way of evidence of capacity of a 14 year old to make such a decision, I offer the following: 1. Child psychologist largely accept the age of 7 as the Age of Reason,i.e., the age at which a child can predict cause and effect. 2. Those same psychologists posit the age of 11 as the age at which the normally developing child becomes capable of abstract thought, i.e., when their conscious ability catches up with their innate creativity to conceive things that are not. 3. Many private preparatory schools in the U.S. ask students to begin charting their careers in the 8th grade, at age 13. While the student is not locked in, the administrators evidently think the student is mature enough not only to consider his strengths, weaknesses and interests, but also responsible enough to start making some plans and decisions based on those characteristics and preferences. Draco can be held responsible for the pernicious intent of his actions, just as Sirius Black can be. The difference is in repentance, forgiveness and subsequent enlightenment. Black has these latter things. It remains to be seen whther Draco Malfoy ever will. 4FR (willing to pass judgement on the "pure-bloods") From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 20:32:55 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:32:55 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB (you have to read it); was Mrs. Weasley...Sabre-toothed tiger?? In-Reply-To: <9mm6ai+dj8t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mm7tn+lvv3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25195 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pegasus0580 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > > > Ali Wildgoose wrote: > -a DADA teacher who lasts only one year--and then turns out to be > evil (Quirrel, and Crouch Jr. as Moody) or incompetent (Lockhart) > **Sharlene Sorry kiddo, I gotta disagree. There is a fundamental difference between plot devices used (and overused) from time to time, and a running gag which has become a signature of the series as much as is Fred & George coming up with new ways to commit mischief (Marauder's Map, Ton-Tongue Toffee, etc.). I bet it would lose miserably in a poll on whether to discontinue the self-destructing DADA's. Haggridd From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 20:40:32 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius, Snape & the Joke Message-ID: <20010830204032.79608.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25196 When discussing the 'joke', I think most people fail to take into consideration Sirius' opinion of *Lupin*. I think that Sirius never believed that Snape would be in physical danger because, in the teenaged mind of Sirius Black, Lupin was 'under control'. We're explicitly told that under the influence of his friends, Lupin's time as a werewolf was becoming less savage. By the time the trick was played Sirius was probably so used to dealing with Lupin's lycanthropy that he came to think of it as a sort of wolf-animagus transformation and not as something highly dangerous. This happens every day: people get accustomed to doing something dangerous and fail to practice CONSTANT VIGILANCE resulting in sometimes fatal tragedy. So, when he told Severus how to get past the Whomping Willow, the young Sirius figured Snape would be *scared* but not hurt. Only my opinion, of course, but I think it fits all the facts. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 30 20:44:08 2001 From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:44:08 -0000 Subject: Black, Snape, Lupin, and the "joke" In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B053D0@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <9mm8io+j198@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25197 >Gwen: > I don't know exactly what triggered Sirius to act that way (and I don't > think it was a woman, Lily or otherwise), but he was obviously very cheesed > with Snape over something. Perhaps it was simply a moment of weakness, or a > cumulative frustration at Snape's constant badgering, but for whatever > reason, I think Sirius snapped. > > Without thinking about it, he gave Severus the information he sought. "You > wanna know? Fine. I'll tell you. Press the knot...." I pretty much agree with that. Sirius does have a bad temper, which I believe can make him do the craziest things. > > I believe that the moment Snape left him, he realized what he'd done, and > regretted it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he went and told James out > of shame and fear. He knew, at that point, that he couldn't stop > Snape--Snape would not have believed him. ("Wait, Snape! Don't. It's a trap. > I was hasty. I shouldn't have told you." Yeah, right. That would have > stopped him.) James's horror rivaled _Sirius's own_ at what he'd just done, > and the implications for both Snape and Lupin (though I believe Sirius > continued not to care about Snape, it was Lupin's fate that worried him). > Maybe Sirius tried to stop Snape from doing what he told him to do but Snape had his mind set on the fact that he is going to find out what Lupin is doing. I also agree with what you say about them worrying about Lupin only--since Sirius' grudge against Snape still exists. > I think it's one of the biggest regrets of his life, and one of the hardest > things he had to come to terms with--realizing that he is the kind of person > who would put two people's lives at risk so callously. It made him grow up > quick. And to think that he _could_ betray a friend like that is what made > it so much easier for him to lose his mind when James and Lily died. I think > it's another motivation behind his initial offer of Secret Keeper-- to prove > to himself he can keep the confidence of his friends. Then he screws it up > again by giving it to Peter. I also think that he at first took up the role of a secret-keeper because he also wishes to prove his loyalty to James and to thank him for fixing up the mistake he made concerning Snape. **I would also like to point out that Sirius' animagus form is the dog--which signifies loyalty. Sharlene From g_keddle at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 20:52:15 2001 From: g_keddle at yahoo.com (g_keddle at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:52:15 -0000 Subject: I'm new to the community and have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mm91v+c9a8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25198 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" wrote: > > Well, for starters, it seems that OoF will be as long - or longer - than > GoF. Is that the buzz at Scholastic? I thought I'd read interviews where JKR said OoP would be shorter - but those were a while ago, it easily could have grown. I'd love another really long volume after all this time. Thanks for the tidbit - Gert From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 21:01:20 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:01:20 -0000 Subject: Fifth Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mm9j0+u4q9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25199 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > > >From: cynthiaanncoe at h... > > > >What the heck could be taking so long? My CoS says it was published > >in 1999; PoA says 1999; GoF was summer 2000. I figured there would > >be a minor delay in OoF so that they don't flood the market with the > >movie and OoF in November -- but July 2002? Why is OoF, which is > >supposed to be shorter than GoF, taking twice as long? > > > >I know, I know, no one knows the answers. I'm just venting. > > also, the first 3 were written before they were published. They spaced them apart on purpose. So she hten had 3 yrs to write 4...but this is suuuuuuch a long time to wait for 5. I'm jumping out of my skin. From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 21:02:19 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:02:19 -0000 Subject: I'm new to the community and have a question... In-Reply-To: <9mm91v+c9a8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mm9kr+f4bd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25200 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., g_keddle at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" wrote: > > > > Well, for starters, it seems that OoF will be as long - or longer - > than > > GoF. > > Is that the buzz at Scholastic? I thought I'd read interviews where > JKR said OoP would be shorter - but those were a while ago, it easily > could have grown. I'd love another really long volume after all this > time. No, she said a few times it wouldn't be as long. She said 4 was so long because of its cruciality, its turning-pointness, or whatever that is. From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 21:04:59 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:04:59 -0000 Subject: Draco is Evil In-Reply-To: <9mm61b+6ouk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mm9pr+acbo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25201 > > Draco's racism may or may not remain with him for the rest of his > life. There's a possibility that he might truly change his anti- Muggle > and Muggle-born feelings one day. And there's a possibility that he > may never change and continue to loathe Muggles and Muggle-borns > forever, only the remaining books will tell. My concern here is that redeeming Draco of his racism (just that, forget all the other nastiness) is a book, possibly more than one, in itself. Racism is a huge thing to undo, and JKR knows it, I'm sure. You can't treat it lightly, and to treat it too much is to take too much away from Harry and his story. Harry's story + Draco's story makes for more than 3 books worth of material. Treat Draco turning lightly, and she'll be rampaged for making light of racism. That's one of the reasons I doubt he'll reform. From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 21:22:01 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:22:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm new to the community and have a question... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25202


>From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm new to the community and have a >question... >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:02:19 -0000 > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., g_keddle at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" >wrote: > > > > > > Well, for starters, it seems that OoF will be as long - or >longer - > > than > > > GoF. > > > > Is that the buzz at Scholastic? I thought I'd read interviews where > > JKR said OoP would be shorter - but those were a while ago, it >easily > > could have grown. I'd love another really long volume after all >this > > time. > >No, she said a few times it wouldn't be as long. She said 4 was so >long because of its cruciality, its turning-pointness, or whatever >that is. I'd go into my reasons for making the above comment...but I think I'd be violating several points of the privacy statement I had to sign. so, ah....yes, I'll just shut up now. Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 21:24:02 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:24:02 -0000 Subject: GoF ques. Message-ID: <9mmati+n935@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25203 OK -- GoF. Krum gets pulled from the maze via the red sparks. They enervate him. Don't you KNOW when you've been put under Imperius? Wouldn't he tell someone? Wouldn't D. stop the contest, knowing something funny was afoot (i.e., Fleur was already stunned and he'd KNOW Harry didn't do it, and Cedric was at the bad end of that Imperio....)? They had ample time between that and the end of the maze. Conjecturin'? Maybe it was Moody who pulled him out, hushed up the Imperius. Who knows. From heraldtalia at juno.com Thu Aug 30 21:50:46 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:50:46 -0400 Subject: Burning PoA question Message-ID: <20010830.175055.-81433.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25204 If this has been answered before, please punish me. I've been (slowly) reading through old posts. At the end of PoA, Sirius sends Harry a permission slip to go to Hogsmeade. How does he know Harry needs one? They really didn't have much time to talk at the end of that book. Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Aug 30 21:58:55 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:58:55 -0500 Subject: Children's Literature -- Draco Thoughts References: <20010830.123337.-194551.1.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <3B8EB71F.9010400@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25205 Hi -- Herald Talia wrote: > As far as children's literature being about children, and adult > literature being about adults - I hope I misunderstood that part of this > conversation. Excuse me? I can think of a lot of adult literature about > children. Think "The Little Prince." Also, think Toni Morrisson's "The > Bluest Eye." The stark realism of that book is made so much more > effective BECAUSE it is portrayed, and so vividly, through the eyes of a > child. And that is NOT a book I would recommend to your average sixth > grader, though that 's the age of the characters. Someone did make the point that in their opinion the HP books are about children and told from the POV of children and hence must be childrens' literature. Like Robyn, I disagree with this position. Catherine reiterated a point I've made before -- I think that the HP books can be understood on different levels, and this seems to me to be a fairly significant reason why they *aren't* childrens' literature per se. I read a fair bit of childrens' literature -- though not as much as some of you who are librarians or teachers. But, I read enough to ...er... "know it when I see it" as Justice Stevens said with regard to pornography. And, maybe, this sort of literature with seeming universal appeal defies classification or definition in a similar manner. :--) Catherine asked if the books are more marketable as childrens' books because they fall into the fantasy genre. That's a possibility. I tend to think that the books were initially marketed to 9-12 yr olds because someone in Bloomsbury's marketing dept gave it a cursory glance (or read over a one-paragraph summary of the plot) and thought "Oh, it's about an 11 year old kid who becomes a wizard ... okay, dokey ... that's juvenile fiction." I'm not sure that JKR, who has always said she didn't write to a target audience of any sort, let alone kids of a certain age, was consulted at all when the marketing decisions were made. Of course, PS wasn't really *marketed* at all in the beginning; I would imagine it wasn't until word-of-mouth sales took it onto the bestseller lists that marketing really came into play. Back to Catherine's question -- I think it's likely that the sci-fi/fantasy books appeal to a limited segment of the reading public. They appeal to a very specific subset of readers in fact. Fantasy childrens' lit, fairy tales, mythology and the like, OTOH, appeal to a broader segment of readers in the childrens' market. These are my impressions anyway (used to work as a bookseller in retail many moons ago). Lisa I. makes some really fantastic points. You're absolutely right. This topic typically arises because someone says that JKR won't let the books go too dark because they're "just kid's books" after all. And, you're perceptive that most of us who jump on this topic usually do skip to (b) -- they aren't "just" kid's books. Fact is that it is important to stress that childrens' literature need not be devoid of dark, scary things and sexual content. And, JKR said pointedly in several post-GoF interviews that she didn't intend to "tone it down" for younger readers. DRACO -- Tillrules asserts that all the characters know how important Hagrid's job is to him (sorry, I upgraded my browser, and Netscape is no longer allowing me to cut & paste into emails -- gotta figure that out). Anyway ... I would say that this is a stretch. To say that all characters must know of the importance of the job to him is to impute a certain degree of perception, knowledge & sensitivity to all the characters that they can't possibly all possess. Draco likely has no idea how important Hagrid's job is to him on a personal level, because Draco hasn't in all likelihood paid any attention to Hagrid or given any thought to how Hagrid might feel about anything. Make sense? You must consider perception & POV also. So far, our perception of Draco is entirely colored by Harry's POV. I'm following the Draco discussions with great interest. Some of you are so cynical! My goodness -- no hope for redemption for anyone who has been guilty of voicing racist sentiments? I guess I hold a more optimistic view of society at large than that. Penny Penny (holding out hope that there's more to Draco than meets the eye) From tillrules at aol.com Thu Aug 30 22:09:58 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:09:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco is Evil Message-ID: <16f.11d29b.28c013b6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25206 In a message dated 8/30/2001 1:37:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, fourfuries at aol.com writes: << -- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > I think the more ponder-ful question is 'has Draco shown, > canonnically, that he has the strength of character to break from > the Death Eaters and Voldemort?' Or is he the stereotypic bully who > is really spineless without the support of his friends and will go >along with Voldemort because he doesn't have the courage to break > free? What a Ponderful question :0)! I don't believe Draco has displayed the slightest inclination to resist the Dark Wizards. Not only is the return of Voldemort a cause for celebration, in his mind, he clearly expects his family to benefit from Voldemort's return. One would have to conclude that he KNEW his father had something to do with the second opening of the Chamber. He clearly knew that his father was out torturing the muggles at the Quidditch world championships in GoF. AND he is proud of the fact. Draco is the embodiment of the "Hitler Youth" charaterization, and he is no one-dimensional foil either. He, like his father, has some craft, is relentless in his hate, and ever vigilant in defense of his false superiority. He wants Voldemort to win, because that's the direction he has accepted for his own future. >> Exactly. Draco has not the smallest amount of remorse for his actions, even after four years of being with others who are not "pure bloods" he retains the exact same feelings towards them. He has not grown at all. Even when he saw first hand the effects of the return of Voldemort (Cedric, a complete innocent, dead) he was still exultant at the return of Voldemort and his "eventual victory." From tillrules at aol.com Thu Aug 30 22:21:17 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:21:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Children's Literature -- Draco Thoughts Message-ID: <169.11cd9e.28c0165d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25207 In a message dated 8/30/2001 3:00:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pennylin at swbell.net writes: << DRACO -- Tillrules asserts that all the characters know how important Hagrid's job is to him (sorry, I upgraded my browser, and Netscape is no longer allowing me to cut & paste into emails -- gotta figure that out). Anyway ... I would say that this is a stretch. To say that all characters must know of the importance of the job to him is to impute a certain degree of perception, knowledge & sensitivity to all the characters that they can't possibly all possess. Draco likely has no idea how important Hagrid's job is to him on a personal level, because Draco hasn't in all likelihood paid any attention to Hagrid or given any thought to how Hagrid might feel about anything. Make sense? In theory, it does, but again you have to consider Hagrid's unique history and Draco's knowledge of it, through his father. I think it pretty likely that Draco at very least knows the surface reasons for Hagrid's dismissal from Hogwarts (if not Riddle's involvement and real identity) and Hagrid's devotion to Dumbledore for allowing him to stay on at Hogwarts is so obvious and so often portrayed, he'd have to know that as well, it would seem. In fact, I'm sure that Draco knows that Hagrid supports Dumbledore and the reasons why he does (I htink he mentionsi ti in some fashioon, I could be wrong). All of this seems to lead tot he fact that Draco knows how much the job means to Hagrid and takes his actions beyond simple prank to maliciousness. Also, that he continues the ruse when the effects on Hagrid are evident (again I think its commented on), htis certainly shows malice on his part. You must consider perception & POV also. So far, our perception of Draco is entirely colored by Harry's POV. This is a very good point. Of course perception of the antagonist is colored by the protagonist. If this were Draco's point of view, maybe Harry woudl be a publicity seeking opportunist. But even if viewed objectively, there is no motivation for calling someone by a racial eptithet or to try to cost someone their job by way of a ruse. I'm following the Draco discussions with great interest. Some of you are so cynical! My goodness -- no hope for redemption for anyone who has been guilty of voicing racist sentiments? I guess I hold a more optimistic view of society at large than that. >> I'm actually not at all cynical. I'm hoping for a happy ending here, with eveyrone happy and properly shipped and singing Kumbaya. But I do view Draco's acitons as being unredeemable. Again, there is far more to his actions than a bit of name calling. He's basically condoned and accepting deaths (Cedric's) as a due right to the return of Voldemort. If he were redeemable, the death of an innocent may be enough to start that process of growth, but instead, he exults in the return of Voldemort. From petrukio at enteract.com Thu Aug 30 22:23:15 2001 From: petrukio at enteract.com (Joel N. Fischoff) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:23:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Burning PoA question In-Reply-To: <20010830.175055.-81433.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25208 On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Herald Talia wrote: >At the end of PoA, Sirius sends Harry a permission slip to go to >Hogsmeade. How does he know Harry needs one? They really didn't have much >time to talk at the end of that book. Uh. Well, Sirius DID go to Hogwarts himself.... Joel From heraldtalia at juno.com Thu Aug 30 22:58:04 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:58:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Burning PoA question Message-ID: <20010830.185821.-81433.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25209 Yes, but how does he know that Harry doesn't have a form? Many other muggleborns do - Hermione does, and we can presume characters like Justin Finch-Fletchey does. Harry seems to be the only one left out. How does Sirius know this? My point wasn't about Hogwarts forms - clearly, he's familiar with those. My point was his anticipation of Harry's needs. Remember, he knows nothing about the Dursleys. He's not even confident that Harry will want to move in with him, he seems to think Harry might even *like* the Dursleys. They also did not have any heart to heart chats yet. So I think the question still stands. :-) Robyn On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:23:15 -0500 (CDT) "Joel N. Fischoff" writes: > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Herald Talia wrote: > >At the end of PoA, Sirius sends Harry a permission slip to go to > >Hogsmeade. How does he know Harry needs one? They really didn't > have much > >time to talk at the end of that book. > > Uh. Well, Sirius DID go to Hogwarts himself.... > > > Joel > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette > tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett eTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) > at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm > and check out our FAQ-based essays at: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the > Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 30 23:07:34 2001 From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:07:34 -0000 Subject: Phoenix colors, Ginny, burning PoA question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mmgvm+2vib@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25210 Okay, picking up from the Chapter 11/12 thread it was asked if the phoenix's colors (red and gold) were significant. I'm sure I'm not the only X-Men fan on the list, so I'd guess I'm not the only person who assumed all phoenixes were red/gold. For the non-x-men (or non- obsessive-x-men) fans out there - two characters were influenced by a cosmic entity known as the Phoenix Force and used the codename "Phoenix". The Phoenix Force itself always showed up as orange/gold, as Phoenix, Jean Grey wore a red/yellow(gold) costume and Rachel Summers wore red leather. Regarding discussions on Ginny acting her age - if we are assuming that Harry was born in 1980, then I am the same age as Ginny (both born in 1981). I don't think of her as acting especially childish - I know I still had tantrums and cried at age 15! As Mary Ann said, crying is a good way of attracting attention, and as one of 7 children I guess she'd have wanted that. "Joel N. Fischoff" wrote: > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Herald Talia wrote: > >At the end of PoA, Sirius sends Harry a permission slip to go to > >Hogsmeade. How does he know Harry needs one? They really didn't have much > >time to talk at the end of that book. > > Uh. Well, Sirius DID go to Hogwarts himself.... > We also know that Sirius spent some time talking to Dumbledore before his escape. Isn't it possible that once convinced of Sirius' innocence D broached the subject? Or maybe sent him an owl suggesting it after his escape? Aleks From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 23:32:44 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:32:44 -0000 Subject: Burning PoA question In-Reply-To: <20010830.185821.-81433.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9mmies+9pij@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25211 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > Yes, but how does he know that Harry doesn't have a form? Many other > muggleborns do - Hermione does, and we can presume characters like Justin > Finch-Fletchey does. Harry seems to be the only one left out. How does > Sirius know this? My point wasn't about Hogwarts forms - clearly, he's > familiar with those. My point was his anticipation of Harry's needs. > Remember, he knows nothing about the Dursleys. He's not even confident > that Harry will want to move in with him, he seems to think Harry might > even *like* the Dursleys. They also did not have any heart to heart chats > yet. So I think the question still stands. :-) > Robyn > uhuh, about time to postulate a brand new theory. In the week after Sirius' escape, he had time to communicate with Dumbledore. Dumbledore, now knowing Sirius' innocence, welcomes him into the fold (order?), and he learns of the magic by which Harry is protected. PERHAPS this magic includes knowing what is going on while Harry is in the Dursley's care (also, Sirius was in Magnolia Crescent th e night Harry left; perhaps he also ove rheard the bit about the permission form? ). If Harry is indeed watched, it would explain a few thiin gs -- like how quickly the accidental magic squad c ame to sort out fat Marge...but would cast doubt on other things, like whether or not D. knew about Dobby. Hmm. M. > > > > From g_keddle at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 00:15:28 2001 From: g_keddle at yahoo.com (g_keddle at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:15:28 -0000 Subject: I'm new to the community and have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mmkv0+j5gc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25212 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" wrote: > I'd go into my reasons for making the above comment...but I think I'd be > violating several points of the privacy statement I had to sign. so, > ah....yes, I'll just shut up now. > > Ali Thanks, Ali. Didn't mean to get you in any trouble. I know nothing .. .but I'm very excited about it! Gert From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 00:26:04 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:26:04 -0000 Subject: Arithmancy/OotP/Evil Draco Message-ID: <9mmlis+5io5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25213 There are about five topics I'm addressing total at this time (unusual for me) so I'm randomly putting three in this post and two in the next one. 1. Arithmancy I read the earlier post cited in another mail. Theories people may have about what this is aside, a definition for this DOES exist. I stand by my opinion that JKR didn't know what it was, thought it sounded like Wizard Mathematics and didn't do a whole lot of research on it. Call it a Flint, if you like, that she has Hermione being so crazy about a form of Divination. Or else we need a word other than Flint for a mere oversight, rather than an actual error (like the wand-order thing). 2. Timing for OotP I'm not at all surprised it's taking a while. (July 2002) She's famous now, she wrote two Comic Relief books, the touring for GoF alone must have taken her ages, and she's been keeping an eye on the movie production. Plus, casting for CoS is taking place now and soon she'll be on chat shows around the world in connection with the PS/SS movie release. Considering that she used to write in a cafe which she probably can't get near anymore without being recognized, I'm amazed that we recently received word that the manuscript is at the publisher's. 3. Evil Draco I think there is a definite purpose to similarities being drawn between the James/Snape relationship and the Harry/Malfoy relationship. Snape is admittedly brave now, as an adult, and willing to do some dangerous work as a spy. We don't have much evidence of his being brave as a student, however, and he's lucky that James was around to save him when Sirius' prank threatened to end on a very unfunny note. So far, Draco Malfoy has only shown signs of being incredibly arrogant and cowardly. He has also been attacked by an animal which was friendly to Harry (Buckbeak). Perhaps a parallel life-saving is imminent? If there's one thing for which Malfoy could never forgive Harry, it would be saving his life, just like James and Snape. And the way Malfoy acts, he'll probably NEED some saving once the proverbial dung starts to hit the fan... Whether Draco will eventually be rehabilitated as Snape has been remains to be seen. And look at Snape; for someone on the "good" side, he can be VERY nasty to the son of the man who saved his life. In other words, even if he becomes a great deal like Snape, he won't be much more congenial than he is now. :) --Barb Get Psyched Out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 00:37:05 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:37:05 -0000 Subject: Interesting tidbit about future book titles Message-ID: <9mmm7h+ni4a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25214 I found this at http://www.hpgalleries.com: Reader Michael Beckett has stumbled upon some very interesting information in the UK. It seems Time Warner has been registering trademarks for Harry Potter and in the process, registered what appear to be new book titles. If you go to the UK Patent Office's trademark search and type in "Harry Potter" you will come up with 3 very interesting marks - Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell, Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat, and Harry Potter and the Chariots of Light. Ironically, these were all registered 4/26/2000 - J.K. Rowling didn't let the title of her next book, "Order of the Phoenix" slip until last October. So were these just a ruse to throw fans off track? Or will two of these titles be used for books 6 and 7 ? Now of course these COULD be red herrings, but who knows? Mighty intriguing isn't it? A thought occured to me: Although we know that Nicholas Flamel no longer has the elixer he needs to continue living, we don't really know that he has in fact died. Perhaps it will take a few years once he has stop taking the elixer? What do you think of the possibility that Flamel may make an appearance and play an important role? Hmmmm... And the pyramids of Furmat? What could that mean? Well, we do know that Bill Weasley works in Egypt, and that Egyptian wizards are repued to be verrrrrryyy interesting. Chariots of Light? Bahhh. Sounds too much like Chariots of Fire..... Thoughts? Suzanne From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 00:40:03 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:40:03 -0000 Subject: DADA Teachers/Children's Lit Message-ID: <9mmmd3+d5n6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25215 Here are the other two topics: 1. DADA Teachers I know it may seem trite for the DADA teacher to have a shelf life of a year, but I enjoy a good reliable plot device (think the doomed drummers in "Spinal Tap.") Plus, Lupin didn't turn out to be evil, per se. He is a "dark creature," but Snape can help him control his problem with Wolfsbane Potion. Also, I don't get the impression that the next DADA teacher will be evil (is this the one that's supposed to be a woman?). Perhaps this will be JKR's way of slipping in the doomed Harry-fan: the teacher will be a fan of Harry's, and the reason she doesn't return for another year is that she is killed near the end of the fifth book. For this reason, I don't want it to be Mrs. Figg. But obviously, I'll live with whatever JKR gives us. :) 2. Children's Lit A "children's" book I came to as an adult is Peter Pan. This book is FULL of sexual innuendo, and has probably been analyzed to death by scholars around the world. It still qualifies as children's literature, though, in that the innuendo is mostly subtext and it probably doesn't appeal to most adults unless they're writing a dissertation on it. Many books for adults are fictionalized auto/biographies of characters. The novels of John Irving come to mind, which usually begin with the childhood of the protagonist(s) and follow the character(s) into adulthood. Are these books half children's books and half adult books because they deal with a little of each part of the characters' lives? IMHO, it is not subject matter or book length or vocabulary or any of a number of other things which distinguishes children's literature from adult literature. If there is any distinction to be made at all, I would say that children's literature is that which appeals almost exclusively to children. This is of course extremely subjective. Adult literature would appeal primarily to adults and pretty much repel children (again, subjective). Anything that has "crossover" appeal and is fair game to be read by anyone is what I would call a valuable contribution to literature everywhere, and to pigeonhole it is to do it a deep injustice. --Barb Get Psyched Out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Aug 31 00:56:57 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:56:57 -0000 Subject: Black, Snape, Lupin, and the "joke" In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B053D0@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <9mmncp+i19g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25216 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" wrote: > I don't know exactly what triggered Sirius to act that way (and I don't > think it was a woman, Lily or otherwise), but he was obviously very cheesed > with Snape over something. Perhaps it was simply a moment of weakness, or a > cumulative frustration at Snape's constant badgering, but for whatever > reason, I think Sirius snapped. I don't think it was over a woman, either. One of the things that struck me about the timing is that the boys are sixteen. This means that they are at least fifth years, and are probably sixth years. At that point, James, etal have become Animagi. And the whole point of that was to be able to stay with Remus during his transformations. However, when Sirius sends Snape off to the Whomping Willow, Remus is already in the Shrieking Shack and James and Sirius are not with him. Why not? So, I've always worked with the idea that something happened to keep James, Peter(?) and Sirius away from Remus on that night and it was something that triggered Sirius to act as he did. > I believe that the moment Snape left him, he realized what he'd done, and > regretted it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he went and told James out > of shame and fear. He knew, at that point, that he couldn't stop > Snape--Snape would not have believed him. Possible, but I've always seen it that Sirius, still in fury, mentions to James what he did, and is almost casual about it because he doesn't think that Snape will act on it, or that Snape will go into the tunnel, but turn back when he hears howling and shrieking coming from the Shack. snip > I think it's one of the biggest regrets of his life, and one of the hardest > things he had to come to terms with--realizing that he is the kind of person > who would put two people's lives at risk so callously. It made him grow up > quick. And to think that he _could_ betray a friend like that is what made > it so much easier for him to lose his mind when James and Lily died. I think > it's another motivation behind his initial offer of Secret Keeper-- to prove > to himself he can keep the confidence of his friends. Then he screws it up > again by giving it to Peter. Although he probably thought he was adding an additional layer of protection. In Sirius' thinkging, Voldemort wouldn't suspect Peter of being the Secret Keeper - he'd come after Sirius. And, since Sirius was no longer the Secret Keeper, he couldn't reveal anything about the Fidelius Charm's secret to Voldemort, even under torture. So, if Sirius died at Voldemort's hand, V. might have thought that the secret died with Sirius, thus ensuring the Potters safety for a while longer. snip > As for why he and Lupin have not been in more contact, ah. Well, thereby > hangs a tale, which is of course only magnified if you subscribe to the "one > true way" of Sirius and Remus. Snip We don't really know that they haven't been in contact. While I'm sure Sirius isn't lugging reams of parchment around with him, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he has also been in contact with Remus. As for the "one, true way" maybe after Remus resigned from Hogwarts, he got a note delived by one of those large, tropical birds, and decided it was time for a vacation someplace warm and sunny... > In short, and to return to my original point, I think both Sirius and Snape > are essentially good guys. I don't think that Sirius's joke was justified, > but neither do I think it makes him forever evil and irredeemable. He hasn't > had a chance to be responsible yet since he's been out of Azkaban, and until > we see how he handles the tasks Dumbledore is sure to put before him, I > won't jump to conclusions about whether he's a mature adult or not. > Certainly, if Snape can be considered mature, Sirius can. They both need to > learn to suck it up and deal better, but at least Sirius has the excuse of > being driven insane by Dementors. > > Snape, too, though, is righteous and has honour. He can be cruel ("I see no > difference") and he can be provoking (all the crap he pulls on Harry about > James), but when push comes to shove, he will do the right thing. He's a > bitter, isolated, self-important man, but he is clearly on the side of good. And wouldn't it be a hoot for Sirius and Severus to find out they're related? Can't you just see Dumbledore trying to run an "old crowd" meeting with Sirius and Snape disrupting it by being at each others' throats. Dumbledore takes them aside and says," I wasn't supposed to reveal this until the 7th book, but, here, read these parchments and deal with it." And, lo, it's revealed that they are orphaned, fraternal twins that were separated at birth, one being adopted by the Blacks and one being adopted by the Snapes. I should stop now before my head explodes.... Marianne From pbnesbit at msn.com Fri Aug 31 00:57:40 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:57:40 -0000 Subject: DADA Message-ID: <9mmne4+dduh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25217 Hi everyone, Here (only a few days late) is DADA. Unfortunately, not that much is written about the DADA classes, just snippets (mostly) here and there. If I've left anything out, please call it to my attention. The teacher for the first year is Professor Quirrell. Hagrid says (paraphrasing) that he was alright until he took a year off to get some practical learning. The classroom smells strongly of garlic, said to be protection against a vampire he'd met in Romania and feared was coming back to get him. The turban was supposedly given to him by an African prince because he'd gotten rid of a zombie. When Seamus asks him to tell them how he fought off the zombie, he changes the subject. There's a funny smell hanging around the turban, too. It's said to be garlic, but... The Curse of the Bogies, which he supposedly teaches them has an effect that's unknown. Lockhart is the 'teacher' in Harry's second year. He brings Cornish Pixies to class, but can't handle them (the spell 'Peskipiksi Pesternomi' is not really a spell). He talks (and writes!) a lot about the things he's done, but when it comes right down to it, he's just a sham. They do cover the Homorphous Charm, which turns a werewolf back into a person, and the Babbling Curse (effects are not given), but how much they learn is dubious, since he really didn't do anything he claims to have done. Remus Lupin teaches them Harry's third year, and from the beginning, he proves himself to be a different breed. They study Dark Creatures their third year. The first class is hands-on as they battle a boggart. He also brings a grindylow to class so that they can observe it. They cover hinkypunks, kappas, red caps, vampires and werewolves in the year. Their final exam is a practical one, an obstacle course with some of the creatures they'd studied. The fourth year brings yet another teacher, Alastor Moody (ok--Barty Crouch, jr. polyjuiced). Although they are only supposed to be learning counter curses (per MoM regulations), Moody covers the Unforgivable Curses, demonstrating with spiders. This is not taught until 6th year, but he says that Dumbledore wants them to learn what they're like. He puts the Imperious Curse on each of them in turn until they can fight it off. Questions: 1. Do you think Quirrell was a good teacher until he took a year off? 2. Did Dumbledore *really* agree to the 4th years being taught about the Unforgivable Curses? 3. I know we've discussed this before, but there are some newcomers, so...why would Crouch-as-Moody teach them how to fight Imperious? From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 01:00:02 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:00:02 -0000 Subject: Arithmancy/OotP/Evil Draco In-Reply-To: <9mmlis+5io5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mmnii+g9cc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25218 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > There are about five topics I'm addressing total at this time > (unusual for me) so I'm randomly putting three in this post and two > in the next one. > > 1. Arithmancy > > I read the earlier post cited in another mail. Theories people may > have about what this is aside, a definition for this DOES exist. I > stand by my opinion that JKR didn't know what it was, thought it > sounded like Wizard Mathematics and didn't do a whole lot of research > on it. Call it a Flint, if you like, that she has Hermione being so > crazy about a form of Divination. Or else we need a word other than > Flint for a mere oversight, rather than an actual error (like the > wand-order thing). > I havae to disagree on this one -- if JKR truly took 5 years planning the series, I doubt Hermione's supposed favorite subject would be a mere oversight. She hasn't sadi ANYthing about it, which really makes me think it's going to be important later on (based on JKR's tendency to slight the clues that crop up as important later on -- there was one line in PoA about animagi; they were studying in class "animagi -- wizards that can become animals" or somethign similar. That was it. Yet all of PoA was based on the animagus, or at least it was a huge chunk of the pie. We did know it was possible, but it was barely mentioned -- Mcgonagall turned into a cat, and that was the end of it.). Hermione is nothing if not logical, and Arithmancy is divination BASED on logic. When she talks about disliking divination, Hermione makes a point to show how much she likes Arithmancy -- which means she appreciates that they have similar qualities. Divination is based on being able to see, Arithmancy based on being mathematically skilled. Hermione may not have the natural talent for it, but I'd be extremely surprised if she wasn't a wiz at something that took all that logic -- and if that logic wasn't a big help to Harry et al later on. m. From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 01:02:17 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:02:17 -0000 Subject: Interesting tidbit about future book titles In-Reply-To: <9mmm7h+ni4a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mmnmp+afug@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25219 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > I found this at http://www.hpgalleries.com: > > Reader Michael Beckett has stumbled upon some very interesting > information in the UK. It seems Time Warner has been registering > trademarks for Harry Potter and in the process, registered what > appear to be new book titles. If you go to the UK Patent Office's > trademark search and type in "Harry Potter" you will come up with 3 > very interesting marks - Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell, Harry > Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat, and Harry Potter and the Chariots > of Light. Ironically, these were all registered 4/26/2000 - J.K. > Rowling didn't let the title of her next book, "Order of the Phoenix" > slip until last October. So were these just a ruse to throw fans off > track? Or will two of these titles be used for books 6 and 7 ? > > This info was on another list -- HogwartsAdultSchool -- on April 20, 2001. I thought it was a silly rumor then, for I couldn't find the source it quoted and it seemed so frivolous. But those names were trademarked on April 26. Either someone saw those names and tm'd them quickly (perhaps the old domain-stealing game), the rumor started because of the trademark, or it's a very suspicious set of coincidences. m. From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 31 01:06:27 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:06:27 -0500 Subject: Horrible thought (was PDWDWTSAFAB) References: <9mll9g+kep8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8EE312.2D223798@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25220 g_keddle at yahoo.com wrote: > Agreed here too. I'd like to see the twins provide more than comic > relief (although I refuse to entertain speculation that one of them > will die.) Yeek. What a horrible thought, I love the twins. And hard on the heels of your horrible thought, came my own. What better candidate for a ghost than 1/2 of a pair of twins? Weasley & Weasley's Joke Shop may be run by a red-headed man and the ghost of his brother.....ugh. Isn't someone we know supposed to become a ghost? I hope I have that wrong. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 31 01:21:24 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:21:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Plot devices References: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B053CE@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <3B8EE694.633E5692@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25221 "Hillman, Lee" wrote: > Actually, I'd like to express the opinion that some of these things > are okay, as long as they're not major plot devices, on which the > outcome of the story/mystery/books hinge. > > For example, I could deal with polyjuice potion, veritaserum, or the > pensieve AS LONG AS they are of minor importance to the plot. Well, that's kind of what I meant, but the acronym was already long enough... --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 31 01:24:18 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:24:18 -0000 Subject: Burning PoA question In-Reply-To: <20010830.185821.-81433.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9mmp02+7cjc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25222 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > Yes, but how does he know that Harry doesn't have a form? Lupin could have told him. Lupin knows Harry was not allowed in Hogsmeade, and he and Harry could have had lots of opportunities for conversation during Harry's anti-dementor lessons. Lupin and Sirius could have gotten in touch by owl once they had left Hogwarts. Pippin From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 01:25:27 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:25:27 -0000 Subject: Interesting tidbit about future book titles In-Reply-To: <9mmnmp+afug@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mmp27+fn7e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25223 I believe that they are trademarked by Time Warner. --Suzanne --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > I found this at http://www.hpgalleries.com: > > > > Reader Michael Beckett has stumbled upon some very > interesting > > information in the UK. It seems Time Warner has been > registering > > trademarks for Harry Potter and in the process, registered > what > > appear to be new book titles. If you go to the UK Patent Office's > > trademark search and type in "Harry Potter" you will come up > with 3 > > very interesting marks - Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell, > Harry > > Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat, and Harry Potter and the > Chariots > > of Light. Ironically, these were all registered 4/26/2000 - J.K. > > Rowling didn't let the title of her next book, "Order of the > Phoenix" > > slip until last October. So were these just a ruse to throw fans > off > > track? Or will two of these titles be used for books 6 and 7 ? > > > > > > This info was on another list -- HogwartsAdultSchool -- on April > 20, 2001. I thought it was a silly rumor then, for I couldn't find the > source it quoted and it seemed so frivolous. But those names > were trademarked on April 26. Either someone saw those > names and tm'd them quickly (perhaps the old domain-stealing > game), the rumor started because of the trademark, or it's a very > suspicious set of coincidences. > > m. From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 01:31:12 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:31:12 -0000 Subject: Interesting tidbit about future book titles In-Reply-To: <9mmp27+fn7e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mmpd0+cf9h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25224 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > I believe that they are trademarked by Time Warner. > ah, so they were. an interesting coinkydink, no? m. > > --Suzanne > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > > I found this at http://www.hpgalleries.com: > > > > > > Reader Michael Beckett has stumbled upon some very > > interesting > > > information in the UK. It seems Time Warner has been > > registering > > > trademarks for Harry Potter and in the process, registered > > what > > > appear to be new book titles. If you go to the UK Patent Office's > > > trademark search and type in "Harry Potter" you will come up > > with 3 > > > very interesting marks - Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell, > > Harry > > > Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat, and Harry Potter and the > > Chariots > > > of Light. Ironically, these were all registered 4/26/2000 - J.K. > > > Rowling didn't let the title of her next book, "Order of the > > Phoenix" > > > slip until last October. So were these just a ruse to throw fans > > off > > > track? Or will two of these titles be used for books 6 and 7 ? > > > > > > > > > > This info was on another list -- HogwartsAdultSchool -- on April > > 20, 2001. I thought it was a silly rumor then, for I couldn't find > the > > source it quoted and it seemed so frivolous. But those names > > were trademarked on April 26. Either someone saw those > > names and tm'd them quickly (perhaps the old domain- stealing > > game), the rumor started because of the trademark, or it's a very > > suspicious set of coincidences. > > > > m. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Aug 30 18:32:00 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:32:00 +0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB Message-ID: <3B8E8695.F839A5F4@qnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25225 > --- - In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > > > > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > > > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > > > The Time Turner (Cindy) > > > > Veritaserum (Cindy) > > > > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > > > > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > > > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > > > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) > > > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > > > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > > > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > > > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > > > > Dobby and Winky (Luce) > > > > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) > > > > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) > > > > The Pensieve (Haggrid) > > Whomping Willow (Cindy) > >>>>>>past, present, future selves (Herald Talia) and I'll add, The villains have everything they need to make their attack, but inexplicably wait till the end of term. PS/SS and CoS are the worst offenders, but GoF comes close. Pippin From pbnesbit at msn.com Fri Aug 31 01:35:24 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:35:24 -0000 Subject: Children's Literature -- Draco Thoughts In-Reply-To: <3B8EB71F.9010400@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9mmpks+aq82@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25226 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Hi -- (Snip some fantastic comments by Penny & Robyn) > > > Lisa I. makes some really fantastic points. You're absolutely right. > This topic typically arises because someone says that JKR won't let the > books go too dark because they're "just kid's books" after all. And, > you're perceptive that most of us who jump on this topic usually do skip > to (b) -- they aren't "just" kid's books. Fact is that it is important > to stress that childrens' literature need not be devoid of dark, scary > things and sexual content. And, JKR said pointedly in several post- GoF > interviews that she didn't intend to "tone it down" for younger readers. On the evening news several months ago a children's librarian was interviewed about this very thing. She stated (and I agree) that kids *need* darkness in stories to help them deal with their fears. In other words, they're thinking 'if Harry can face Voldemort and not show fear, I can face [whatever *I'm* afraid of] the same way. (Snip) > > DRACO > I'm following the Draco discussions with great interest. Some of you > are so cynical! My goodness -- no hope for redemption for anyone who > has been guilty of voicing racist sentiments? I guess I hold a more > optimistic view of society at large than that. > > Penny > Unfortunately, it's been my experience that that's true. I work at a living history site, deal with slavery history, and the amount of racist comments (in 2001!)is astounding. Usually, it's people who were raised to think that way from childhood and they haven't gotten over it, or learned any differently. Some people don't come out & say it--that would be Politically Incorrect, but you can see it in their body language. I'm also white, which may help. Thankfully, it *is* getting better. I've only had a couple of people like that since I started my job as the weaver. (I was a guide--volunteer-- before) Peace & Plenty, Parker From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 01:52:23 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:52:23 -0000 Subject: Interesting tidbit about future book titles In-Reply-To: <9mmpd0+cf9h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mmqkn+ooob@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25227 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > > > I believe that they are trademarked by Time Warner. > > > > ah, so they were. an interesting coinkydink, no? > > m. Well, what it has me thinking is not that it is a coinkydink at all, but that there is a reason why WB has registered them. Why would they register them if they were not.... uhm... important? Of course this could be an elaborate ruse designed purely to throw off us hunger fans, but one does wonder if these are not working titles. Thoughts? Suzanne From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 02:01:36 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 02:01:36 -0000 Subject: Interesting tidbit about future book titles In-Reply-To: <9mmqkn+ooob@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mmr60+p7as@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25228 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > > > > > I believe that they are trademarked by Time Warner. > > > > > > > ah, so they were. an interesting coinkydink, no? > > > > m. > > > Well, what it has me thinking is not that it is a coinkydink at all, > but that there is a reason why WB has registered them. Why would they > register them if they were not.... uhm... important? > Right -- which means the rumor that showed up earlier is another confirmation of that.. Here's a question: One of the titles is the Alchemists Cell, right? Didn't D. say that room was full of golden chamber pots? Golden? Could that be the alchemists cell, posing as a bathroom? I really don't believe it, but you never know. later, m. From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 02:12:45 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 02:12:45 -0000 Subject: PDW"DO"WTSAFAB (was Re: PDWDWTSAFAB) In-Reply-To: <20010830.124931.-194551.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9mmrqt+qeqe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25229 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:11:31 -0000 cynthiaanncoe at h... writes: > > --- - In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > > > > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > > > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > > > The Time Turner (Cindy) > > > > Veritaserum (Cindy) > > > > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > > > > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > > > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > > > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) > > > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > > > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > > > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > > > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > > > > Dobby and Winky (Luce) > > > > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) > > > > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) > > > > The Pensieve (Haggrid) > > Whomping Willow (Cindy) > Past, present and future selves (Robyn) Can we have a break from the invisiblility cloak? I wouldn't mind a comeback later, but it's about done for me. - Denise (who is really just jealous that she doesn't have one) From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 02:13:26 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slytherin composition (was Re: Draco is Evil) In-Reply-To: <136.e1e1ba.28bfec09@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010831021326.59647.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25230 Hello, --- tillrules at aol.com wrote: > Arguable, but now he's had 4 years of contact with > "mudbloods." He is still > keeping with the racist attitudes that he had > espoused from his first > appearence. I think the original poster (sorry!) meant close contact where the possibility of friendship is looming close. Draco doesn't...associate with Muggle-borns and therefore doesn't really have enough meaningful contact to change his mind. I have no doubt that he's a spoiled little brat, but I still think he hasn't completely gone over to the Dark Side' yet. Talking about that, are there no Muggle-born or 'half-blood' currently in Slytherin? I assume they'd take offense to Draco continually mouthing them off if there are, but the Slytherin table always seems so...filled with commaradie. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 02:16:50 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 02:16:50 -0000 Subject: Interesting tidbit about future book titles In-Reply-To: <9mmr60+p7as@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mms2i+dfkm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25231 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > Here's a question: One of the titles is the Alchemists Cell, right? > Didn't D. say that room was full of golden chamber pots? Golden? > Could that be the alchemists cell, posing as a bathroom? > > I really don't believe it, but you never know. *snort* That is a good one! Well, I have been wondering about that room.... I think it may indeed reappear when one of the characters really, really needs to go! Seriously though, if there is any substance to these titles, I am intrigued by the idea of Nicholas Flamel making an appearance. Perhaps we will learn a bit more about Dumbledore's past? --Suzanne From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 02:24:10 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm new to the community and have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010831022410.61423.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25232 Hello, --- Ali Wildgoose wrote: > [snip all JKR has to do] > Will all this to do on the side, it's no wonder Book > V is a little slow in > the coming. :P Argh! I'd rather they let her focus on Book 5 and screw everything else! Okay, maybe not the Magical Creatures and Quidditch Through the Ages... little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Aug 31 02:32:44 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:32:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA Teachers/Children's Lit References: <9mmmd3+d5n6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B8EF74C.6070702@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25233 Hi -- blpurdom at yahoo.com wrote: > 2. Children's Lit > > IMHO, it is not subject matter or book length or vocabulary or any of > a number of other things which distinguishes children's literature > from adult literature. If there is any distinction to be made at > all, I would say that children's literature is that which appeals > almost exclusively to children. This is of course extremely > subjective. Adult literature would appeal primarily to adults and > pretty much repel children (again, subjective). Anything that > has "crossover" appeal and is fair game to be read by anyone is what > I would call a valuable contribution to literature everywhere, and to > pigeonhole it is to do it a deep injustice. Well said!!!! Hurrah!!! My point exactly ...only much more concisely put. I don't care for books with such broad cross-over appeal being pigeon-holed. Thanks Barb! Penny (who will shut up on this subject ... at least overnight) From Bente13 at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 31 02:47:39 2001 From: Bente13 at peoplepc.com (Bente13 at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 02:47:39 -0000 Subject: DADA Teachers/Children's Lit In-Reply-To: <3B8EF74C.6070702@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9mmtsb+7q0o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25234 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Hi -- > > blpurdom at y... wrote: > > > > 2. Children's Lit > > > > IMHO, it is not subject matter or book length or vocabulary or any of > > a number of other things which distinguishes children's literature > > from adult literature. If there is any distinction to be made at > > all, I would say that children's literature is that which appeals > > almost exclusively to children. This is of course extremely > > subjective. Adult literature would appeal primarily to adults and > > pretty much repel children (again, subjective). Anything that > > has "crossover" appeal and is fair game to be read by anyone is what > > I would call a valuable contribution to literature everywhere, and to > > pigeonhole it is to do it a deep injustice. > > Well said!!!! Hurrah!!! My point exactly ...only much more concisely > put. I don't care for books with such broad cross-over appeal > being pigeon-holed. Thanks Barb! > > Penny (who will shut up on this subject ... at least overnight) I'll agree to this one, too, and maybe we can put the thing to rest, at least for a while. I'm sick and tired of arguing about it. Pax? Bente From elbereth at di.org Fri Aug 31 03:24:22 2001 From: elbereth at di.org (Elbereth) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:24:22 -0400 Subject: a few thoughts ... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010830232422.00b2e180@di.org> No: HPFGUIDX 25235 Hello, all! ~~ Just de-lurking after my first week on the List, a week of reading everything with great fascination! I'm another Arabelle Figg type: 43-yr-old Canadian me and my Siamese cats. (I'm the stupid kitten with the opposable thumbs.) ;-] Just a few comments from the cheap seats, prompted by the recent discussions -- I apologize for not crediting the people who twigged them, but I'm not that organized this week. %] 1. The Order of the Phoenix: my thought on this is that it will be a new group, formed by Dumbledore and named for Fawkes -- something along the lines of the Order of the Knights of the Round Table. The membership will come from the "old crowd" and Harry's gang, and their mandate will be to work against Voldemort unbeknownst to the MoM. 2. Snape isn't that farfetched, isn't a stereotype -- he's almost exactly like a math teacher I had in high school. He was a hard-faced and stern man who browbeat and mocked his class -- he had developed the knack of seeing clearly with his peripheral vision, so it didn't matter that he was staring out the window, he *knew* what you were doing. He terrified everyone by having people stand and explain algebra questions on the overhead projector -- I recall one classmate (who was, come to think of it, much like Neville) who actually fainted when called upon ... 3. Dumbledore has every reason to "look old" without it being some Omen of Doom. JKR has said that witches and wizards live longer than Muggles, and that Minerva McGonagall is in her 70's (?) and Albus Dumbledore is twice that. Compare that, however, to Nicholas Flammell, who is in his mid-600's -- there's also no real guarantee that Dumbledore was *taking* the potion that his partner Flammell had developed with the Philosopher's Stone ... 4. I wish I could find the ruddy reference, but I distinctly recall JKR saying sometime last year that Lupin would be back in Book5, and that he would play an important role in Book7. So sweet Remus ain't dead yet, folks! OTOH, I can't help but recall with dread that the archetypal werewolf *dies* at the end of the movie/book/fairy tale ... 8-[ 5. And finally, an icky thought that can only be discussed in an adult HP group -- no, no, the ListElves may calm themselves, I shall be delicate! Okay, here goes: I suspect that Bertha Jorkins may have played a more involved role in Voldy's revival than JKR can ever reveal. But I ask myself ... we see Voldemort early on as a face manifested on someone else's body (Quirrel, who always makes me think of squirrels, but I digress); we hear V. talked about as if he were a weak and disembodied spirit, a phantasm, an evil influence. THEN, after months in hiding, and months with the unwilling company of Bertha Jorkins (missing person and presumably "pure"-blooded witch) Voldy shows up in his, as someone so aptly put it, "ugly baby form". So. Were the powers of evil using poor Bertha as a magically-augmented incubator? Voldemort's body, the form he took before The Graveyard Scene, had to come from somewhere ... (Sorry, I just thought I share that nightmare image, so I don't have it all to myself, ick.) Elbereth (a.k.a. BlueEyedTigress) *********************************************************************** "Watashi no hobaakurafuto wa unagi de ippai desu." *********************************************************************** From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 03:29:52 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco Is Definitely Evi In-Reply-To: <9mlp6p+jpsh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010831032952.52671.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25236 Hello, --- fourfuries at aol.com wrote: > opportunity, a la > the doctor in the climactic scene of Hannibal ("just > push him in, you > can blame it on me"); Okay! Thank you for spoiling the movie for me! Now I can never watch it . Just kidding. As to Lucius not wanting to be in the spotlight, that was the reason I thought the puppet master theory would probably be more logical. Originally it might take Lucius all his wit to manipulate Voldemort, but I doubt it'd be as difficult now that V is downright insane. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From linman6868 at aol.com Fri Aug 31 04:28:31 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 04:28:31 -0000 Subject: One Last Thing About Children's Literature In-Reply-To: <9mmpks+aq82@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mn3pf+hbjr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25237 Hello again -- I thought I'd got it all out of my system, but I haven't. I know I said that it's okay if JKR makes her children's stories dark, and that people who argue that they won't be dark because they're just kids' books are mistaken...but there's another thing to be said. I have a friend who can't finish Dorothy Dunnett's CHECKMATE because she was so harrowed by what Dunnett did to Philippa Somerville. My friend felt that Dunnett betrayed her by seemingly portraying Philippa as the character who always lands on her feet in the midst of horrible circumstances, only to pull the rug out from under her in the last book. Now, you won't find anyone in the world to argue that the Lymond Chronicles are children's books; nor is there any doubt that those books are some of the DARKEST you can find, as far as people dying, going crazy, bed-hopping, torturing, betraying, and wondering if they can bear to live. And yet my friend had the problem. Therefore I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who says that they feel the integrity of the Harry Potter story-arc won't (by its own virtue) bear too great extremes of pain, sorrow, temptation, and torture. There's a wry, gentle humor JKR uses that seems to defuse even the worst scenarios -- a tragicomic touch that (like Dunnett's) causes hope to spring eternal in the reader's breast. To some, it would probably be a disappointment on the order of betrayal if REALLY Bad Things happened to Harry and his nearest and dearest. The whole thing's complicated, however, by the fact that these books *are* children's books -- that is, children read them, have appropriated them, and are the central market for them. People worry: because they're afraid of handing a Dunnett-like series to young people and saying here, read this. I mean, if *I* was a parent I'd do some serious thinking it over. And even for my own sake, I'd worry about the impending darkness of the next books. The only thing to reiterate is that you can't escape from Books With Bad Things Happening by reading children's literature, and these worries about the story's integrity being compromised by dark stuff has more to do with the story's integrity rather than its genre. Well, I think that about does it. I'm headed off to bed. Lisa I. From catlady at wicca.net Fri Aug 31 04:51:26 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:51:26 -0700 Subject: Draco/Evil - trademarked titles - Birtha Jorkins - other stuff Message-ID: <3B8F17CE.2863CB18@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25238 Tillrules wrote: > In the other hand, in the midst of an ongoing > series of accidents, Draco hopes that Hermione > will be next, purely due to her "mudblood" status. NOT *purely* due to her "mudblood" status -- Draco would hate Hermione even if she were a pureblood, because he considers it to be her fault that her e.g. 112% in Charms causes his father to berate him for not having done as well. Tillrules wrote: > We do not know that he was the type of > child Draco is, kind of the kid who drowns > puppies & cats to see them squirm. Draco doesn't drown kitten and puppies to see them squirm, he does it to try to prove to his father that he isn't soft. Suzanne wrote: > 3 very interesting marks - Harry Potter and the > Alchemist's Cell, Harry Potter and the Pyramids > of Furmat, and Harry Potter and the Chariots of > Light. Ironically, these were all registered 4/26/2000 I heard the Pyramids of Furmat rumor a while ago, maybe at HPgalleries? I do hope it is about Egypt and not about Fermat's Theorem. IIRC, when JKR revealed the title OotP, she said she had been trying to decide between two titles and suddenly decided just in order to answer a little boy with big beautiful eyes. If Order of the Phoenix had been among those trademarks, one of the others could have been the other title she was considering. Where did I read that the working title of CoS was HP and the Halfblood Prince, but she changed it later because that turned out not to be what it was about. Which left me wondering whether the 'prince' was Riddle or Potter? blue eyed tigress wrote: > Were the powers of evil using poor Bertha as > a magically-augmented incubator? Meow! Now that you mention it, it seems likely. I long ago worked out an idea where a woman joined the Dark Side in exchange for being made beautiful by Voldemort's magic, and in it she had to conceive and carry her new body (rather than birthing it, she was turned inside out, which was *extremely* painful). Bringing some OT back to the main list just because I have room in this email: Ali Wildgoose mentioned that Philip Pullman had written a book named "I Was a Rat", so I wondered if it was about Pettigrew. Saitaina mentioned that her mother's address is in Riddle, Oregon, and I wondered whether that town was related to Tom Riddle. IN RE CHILDREN'S BOOKS: In the course of this argument, some people seem to have expressed the opinion that any book about children is a children's book and any book about adults is an adult book. I am sure there are a number of children's books about adults, altho' the first that came to mind were simplified history, such as the famous voyages of Columbus. Finally I thought of an example which is a novel: THE HOBBIT. Tolkien intended it for children when he wrote it, and I don't recall any child among the characters. Someone in this argument said listed "Tolkien" as a children's book(s), and surely they didn't mean LORD OF THE RINGS. LOTR was written with the intention of being an adult book, it was marketted as an adult book, and the style is quite different from that of THE HOBBIT. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches ------------------------------------------------------------------ R ighteous A ttractive V ictorious E ager N atural C lassy L ewd A mazing W ise ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 31 05:24:31 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:24:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] One Last Thing About Children's Literature Message-ID: <20010831.012448.-154809.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25239 > > Therefore I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who says that they > feel the integrity of the Harry Potter story-arc won't (by its own > virtue) bear too great extremes of pain, sorrow, temptation, and > torture. There's a wry, gentle humor JKR uses that seems to defuse > even the worst scenarios -- a tragicomic touch that (like Dunnett's) > > causes hope to spring eternal in the reader's breast. To some, it > would probably be a disappointment on the order of betrayal if > REALLY > Bad Things happened to Harry and his nearest and dearest. > > The whole thing's complicated, however, by the fact that these books > > *are* children's books -- that is, children read them, have > appropriated them, and are the central market for them. People > worry: because they're afraid of handing a Dunnett-like series to > young people and saying here, read this. First of all, as someone who lost a parent in childhood, I'll say that REALLY bad things already happened to Harry and Neville. That's one of childhood's worst fears. Today, with rampant divorce etc, many kids face those kind of fears daily. To a child, an absent parent *is* dead in many ways. I've seen this in play therapy - children sometimes make sense of the absent parent's absence with deathlike metaphors. So this is a current, valid fear. You also hear kids with a lot of magical thinking - I'm worried about my dad. If I'm not around, something could happen to him, what if he dies? Lenore Terr, in her excellent book "Too Scared to Cry" points out that the child is "trying on" the fear by thinking this way. I think it is good for kids to deal with some of the darker issues in a "safe" way - such as in children's literature. Real life often ain't too rosy, and this is a good way to practice dealing with real life issues, existential fears, and fears about the loss of relationships. You then wrote: I mean, if *I* was a > parent > I'd do some serious thinking it over. And even for my own sake, I'd > > worry about the impending darkness of the next books. The only > thing > to reiterate is that you can't escape from Books With Bad Things > Happening by reading children's literature, and these worries about > the story's integrity being compromised by dark stuff has more to do > > with the story's integrity rather than its genre. > > Well, I think that about does it. I'm headed off to bed. > > Lisa I. That having been said, I'll admit it - I always hope for a happy ending. (Call me unsophisticated.) I want a living, breathing, happy Harry at the end. I would feel sad and betrayed if he's dead. I also do plan on censoring my daughter's reading list somewhat. However, if she is a very serious reader, and our relationship is as good as I hope it will be :P, she will come to me with more difficult or possibly objectionable books, and I'll probably let her read them, provided she discusses them with me first. My mom did that with me, and I read a lot of books that other kids probably wouldn't have been allowed to read (or been interested in, but that's another issue.) I'd let my kid read the Harry books, but warn her so that she can make an informed decision. I know that I read Steven King at 12, and wished I'd been warned. I had the wisdom not to pick up his books again till age 17, which worked for me. Otherwise, I would have had a lot of sleepless nights. I also know that other "children's lit" can be dark and have a profound affect on kids BECAUSE of the darkness "The Year of Impossible Goodbyes" "Roll of Thunder, Hear my Cry" "The Well" Those books, which I read in young adulthood, helped form my understanding of things like racism, prejudice, and hate. These are not simple topics. I just object to the idea that 1) childhood is pure, untainted, and easy 2) children's literature is fluff. JKR's strength is the fact that she takes "difficult" topics like orphans, death, prejudice, and even the media's power over our concept formation, and makes them accessible, and somehow non - threatening. I find that refreshing. I'll pick up another thread now, and give it another spin...(couldn't resist the pun) As far as JKR's dealing with sex. Mindy was on a good track, though some of the criticism of her was valid. What I find refreshing about JKR is the lack of sleazy sex in the wizarding community. Yes, there are sexual issues - where there are people, there are sexual issues, or there wouldn't *be* people. We're built that way. But sex doesn't take over and become sleaze. We're living in a society where 11 year old girls are having unprotected group sex because the plain old way is boring - and this is happening in upscale neighborhoods, not the inner city. I can't shop for my daughters in stores like K-Mart. Can someone tell me the logic of pleather minis and tank tops for the ten and under set? Those types of clothes have a purpose. There's a reason Britney Spears wears them - and it's not a purpose that I see as conducive to the developmental tasks of childhood. I mean, what happened to normal ten year old wear being T-shirts and jeans? Surely these clothes are intended for sports other than soccer. So yes, Ron and Hermione may have sexual undertones in their relationship. Harry may fantasize about Cho. But Hermione's not going down on Ron to preserve her virginity. Cho doesn't do a striptease to get Harry 's attention. What I find refreshing about Rowling is her *realistic* portrayal of (so far) preteen sexual matters - it's a concern, but by no means the only one. Is sex dirty? No. In fact, it's so holy and beautiful, it should remain more private than it does today. JKR doesn't play the sex card. She lets her characters mature normally, and doesn't sacrifice them on the altar of the avant-garde. Basically, I'm all for including all the normal ticklish subjects - death, love, hate, prejudice, coming of age etc. But I'm not for freakishness. Let's not have all the students capturing a Veela and raping her, please. Let's keep it in the realm of the normal (while being in the realm of the magical, of course.) Sorry to rant. It's getting late, and that brings out the worst in me. Robyn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald heard a mermaid sing, Suzy spied an elf. But all the magic I have known, I've had to make myself- Shel Silverstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From warhound at accessus.net Fri Aug 31 07:41:50 2001 From: warhound at accessus.net (WarMaster) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:41:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR and Roald Dahl Connection Message-ID: <00b001c131f0$65b41fa0$2592cecf@warhound> No: HPFGUIDX 25240 Robyn, Sorry, didn't mean to get your knickers in a twist by mentioning similarities between Roald Dahl's real life experiences with boarding schools and abusive teachers and JKR's portrayal of Snape and the extended time students spend at Hogwarts. >There's been some discussion about the influence of many authors >on JKR. Dahl is one of the obvious ones. However, JKR takes all the >(few) good points about Roald Dahl and turns them into good ones. Takes "good points" and turns them into "good ones"?? Maybe you mean takes some "bad points" and turns them into "good ones?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >1) the GB boarding school as a positive, healing, place. It's a home >away from home for Harry, not a place for sadistic teachers out >solely for the torture of students. Actually Matilda very much liked going to school even though The Trunchbull was there. She had Miss Honey who was very loving. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >2) Dahl's work has an unpleasant, dark edge to it that JKR's works >do not. The Dark Lord is evil, the magical world is not perfect, and >there is a courageous take on a lot of dark subjects BUT the >characters don't seem locked in hopeless morass the way Dahl's >characters do. His books are just depressing. I don't believe they are depressing at all. They make me laugh and his characters show great strength and courage. (i.e. Charlie vs. great poverty, Matilda vs. an overpowering headmistress, Danny vs. the class system--to name a few) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >3) Contrast Dahl's "Witches" - they hate little boys because all little >boys smell to them like fresh, hot dog excrement. with Voldemort's >attempt to rise to power. Dahl's characters live in a senselessly cruel >and malicious world, have no powers, and eventually sort of triumph. Matilda triumphs pretty well over The Trunchbull with extraordinary powers that she develops on her own. Charlie triumphs enough to become heir to the Chocolate Factory. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Harry at least lives in a world free of red hot dog excrement. There >are unreasonable prejudices in the wizarding world, but we are clear >that JKR is sending a strong message about the nature of prejudice. >Dahl, on the other hand, was quite unapologetically anti everyone. Pretty sweeping statement to say that he was "anti everyone." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Let's not discuss the famous literary analysis of Charlie and the >Chocolate Factory - a celebration of Naziism, according to some. I can't discuss it since I missed it. Can you let me know what the name of it is?? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >The only Jewish character in the book is loathsome, the slaves are >"woolly headed creatures" and there are strong overtones of >"wicked lesbianism" - witches, Trunchbulls, etc in many of his books. I'm assuming that this is all included in the aforementioned "famous literary analysis?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Adults shove Dahl at kids because the Charlie books are so sugar >coated there's that whole chocolate factory. Contrast that to >Honedukes. JKR has just as much fun with her treats, she invents >great ones. But in Honeydukes, no one dies. We don't have anyone >drowning in vats of chocolate, etc. No child was killed (by drowning or otherwise) in the Chocolate Factory. Sucked up a tube, yes; nearly incinerated, yep, that too; dejuiced, ahuh; turned into a million electrons to be transmitted across the room, Mike Teevee thought it was great fun; but no one was ever killed. However, the parents of these spoiled brats (they didn't listen to Willy Wonka's warnings) were horrified. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Personally, I think all these adults who are banning Harry because it >might cause their children to be evil ought to rethink their Christmas >movie - the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory tradition. Actually, I can't stand the movie (something that we agree on but for different reasons). When I read the book, though, I was hooked. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >IMHO, JKR really uses the whole GB boarding school/ magic >themes in a much better and more psychologically healthy way than >Dahl does. I will not dispute that (except for the "psychologically healthy" bit--I think it helps our mental health to laugh at wild outlandish characters such as The Trunchbull and parents who spoil their children too much). I believe JKR is a much better writer than Roald Dahl. They are not in the same class, but they are in the same school--writing children's literature that adults can also read and get a good story from. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Robyn, who has been lurking for a while. Let's just say my toddler could >have used Madam Pomfrey recently. Sorry to turn my first post back into a >rant :-) Beverly, who hated it when her toddlers were under the weather and apologizes for getting so far OT but she got her knickers in a twist, too:-D From elbereth at di.org Fri Aug 31 05:47:53 2001 From: elbereth at di.org (Elbereth) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:47:53 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore's name Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010831014753.00b219f0@di.org> No: HPFGUIDX 25241 Herald Talia wrote: >If this has been discussed before, please forgive me - I've been wading >through the previous posts and VFAQs but RL intrudes to some degree. >Dumbledore's name - is it significant? Oh! Oh! Pick me, I know! 8-D Dumbledore is, as has been said, a delightful old name for the bumblebee -- I know JKR has mentioned this. But I ran across another nifty connection while I was studying up on werewolves online. "Dumbledore's Delight" is an old folk name for ... wait for it ... Aconite Napellum. Monk's-Hood. Wolfsbane! With a name like that, Albus'd almost *have* to have a soft spot for the poor little werewolf boy, wouldn't he? *chuckle* Sorry, definite soft spot in my head for Lupin ... ;-] Elbereth, a.k.a. BlueEyedTigress From klhurt at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 07:18:17 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin composition In-Reply-To: <20010831021326.59647.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010831071817.14002.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25242 --- "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: >Talking about that, are there no >Muggle-born or 'half-blood' currently >in Slytherin? With a password like 'pureblood', I doubt it seriously. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From elbereth at di.org Fri Aug 31 07:36:44 2001 From: elbereth at di.org (Elbereth) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 03:36:44 -0400 Subject: Publishing Dates for HP Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010831033644.00b22d80@di.org> No: HPFGUIDX 25243 Cindy wrote: >Since someone raised this . . . > >What the heck could be taking so long? My CoS says it was published >in 1999; PoA says 1999; GoF was summer 2000. I figured there would >be a minor delay in OoF so that they don't flood the market with the >movie and OoF in November -- but July 2002? Why is OoF, which is >supposed to be shorter than GoF, taking twice as long? Hmmm ... well, originally they were *planning* to release the movie & book5 at the same time! And according to my hardcovers (RainCoast, quoting original UK publishing dates), the sequence runs more like this: Philosopher's Stone - 1997 Chamber of Secrets - 1998 Prisoner of Azkaban - 1999 Goblet of Fire - 2000 We've got the movie fro 2001. JKR has been distracted with Many Things this year -- the movie, the books for charity, her other charitable work, the interviews and book signing tours, all the admittedly good stuff which nevertheless Isn't Writing. And she has said she won't rush Order of the Phoenix (or whatever it ends up being called!) for the sake of an artificially set deadline. So really, for my couple of knuts, I'm willing to let the lady have as long as she needs to produce a book that keeps the story going properly. She's at the helm, and I trust her storytelling instincts. ;-] BlueEyedTigress From klhurt at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 08:00:05 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting tidbit about future book titles In-Reply-To: <9mnfsd+k071@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010831080005.37670.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25244 [I hope this isn't a duplicate. I waited 40mins but the first one didn't post.] --- In rainy_lilac at y... wrote: >but that there is a reason why WB has >registered them. Why would they >register them if they were not.... >uhm... important? > >Of course this could be an elaborate >ruse designed purely to throw off us >hunger fans, but one does wonder if >these are not working titles. They could be the names of in-the-works games -- board, electronic, computer, and/or video -- and have nothing to do with upcoming books. Kelly the Yarn Junkie (who thinks the titles don't quite sound like JKR but doesn't know why) ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 08:06:37 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin composition In-Reply-To: <20010831071817.14002.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010831080637.21056.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25245 Hello, I asked, > >Talking about that, are there no > >Muggle-born or 'half-blood' currently > >in Slytherin? >--- Kelly Hurt wrote: > With a password like 'pureblood', I doubt it > seriously. I thought the passwords were set by the portraits themselves? Also, *why* isn't there any Muggle-borns and/or 'halfbloods' currently in Slytherin? Tom Riddle was in Slytherin, wasn't he? little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From klhurt at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 07:09:21 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA In-Reply-To: <9mmne4+dduh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010831070921.43831.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25246 --- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote: > The Curse of the Bogies, which he >supposedly teaches them has an effect >that's unknown. Quirrell didn't teach them the Curse; he told them about it. >(the spell 'Peskipiksi Pesternomi' is >not really a spell). Just because it didn't work when Lockhart did it doesn't mean it isn't a spell. It may not have been the correct spell or, more likely, Lockhart was talented enough to perform it correctly. >They do cover the Homorphous Charm, >which turns a werewolf back into a >person, If this is real, why doesn't Dumbledore cure Lupin? >2. Did Dumbledore *really* agree to >the 4th years being taught about the >Unforgivable Curses? 3. I know we've >discussed this before, but there are >some newcomers, so...why would >Crouch-as-Moody teach them how to >fight Imperious? To answer #3 first, while it may be true that Crouch, Jr. hated the Imperius Curse because he lived under it for so long, there is really only one reason why he would teach students to resist it: he did so because Dumbledore told him to and to disobey would've blown his cover. So that answers #2 as well. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From klhurt at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 07:16:00 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WB Trademarks In-Reply-To: <9mmqkn+ooob@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010831071600.44419.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25247 --- rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote: > but that there is a reason why WB has >registered them. Why would they >register them if they were not.... >uhm... important? > >Of course this could be an elaborate >ruse designed purely to throw off us >hunger fans, but one does wonder if >these are not working titles. They could just be the names for board, electronic, computer and/or video games and have absolutely nothing to do with the upcoming books. Kelly the Yarn Junkie (who thought the titles just somehow didn't quite sound like JKR but she can't really say why) ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From klhurt at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 08:17:58 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DADA In-Reply-To: <9mnga7+6e9o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010831081758.27648.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25248 [I hope this isn't a duplicate. I waited 40mins but the first one didn't post.] --- In pbnesbit at m... wrote: >The Curse of the Bogies, which he >supposedly teaches them has an effect >that's unknown. Actually, Quirrell only tells them about the Curse. >(the spell 'Peskipiksi Pesternomi' is >not really a spell). Just because Lockhart wasn't talented enough to perform the spell correctly doesn't mean it's not a spell. It may just have been the wrong spell. >They do cover the Homorphous Charm, >which turns a werewolf back into a >person And, according to Lockhart, it's forever which makes me believe this might not be a real spell or Dumbledore would've used it to 'cure' Lupin. > Questions: >1. Do you think Quirrell was a good >teacher until he took a year off? We don't know that Quirrell ever taught before SS/PS. >2. Did Dumbledore *really* agree to >the 4th years being taught about the >Unforgivable Curses? >3. I know we've discussed this >before, but there are some newcomers, >so...why would Crouch-as-Moody teach >them how to fight Imperious? You can't hide much from Dumbledore. He would've known if faux Moody wasn't following the lesson plan agreed upon. Thus Dumbledore told Moody to teach the Unforgivable Curses which is why Crouch Jr taught students how to fight the Imperius Curse. A more ponder-ful (<--kudos for that) question is *why* did Dumbledore want the Gryffindor 4th years taught the UC? Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From klhurt at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 08:31:08 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin composition In-Reply-To: <20010831080637.21056.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010831083108.28607.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25249 Little Alex asked >>>Talking about that, are there no >>>Muggle-born or 'half-blood' >>>currently in Slytherin? > To which I answered >>With a password like 'pureblood', I >>doubt it seriously. And she responded >I thought the passwords were set by >the portraits themselves? The entrance to the Slytherin common room is through a wall, thus Snape or the Prefects would have to set the passwords. >Also, *why* isn't there any >Muggle-borns and/or 'halfbloods' >currently in Slytherin? The Sorting Hat didn't put any there?;-) >Tom Riddle was in Slytherin, wasn't >he? Yes he was. I think his ambition and all-consuming hatred of Muggles made his lineage irrelevant to the Sorting Hat. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A New Harry Potter Discussion Group for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 08:57:58 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:57:58 -0000 Subject: The Animagus Clothing Cop-Out (Revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mnjim+fepr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25250 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Daniel Siegmann" wrote: > Saying this is a cop-out is silly. This is magic we're talking about here. > If a wizard can turn a mouse into a snuffbox, I don't see why it's > so difficult to believe they can learn to transform their robes with > themselves. > In fact, I believe they transform whatever happens to be on their person at > the moment of transformation - particularily what happens in be in the > pockets of their robes. In other words, an animagus could easily take their > wand when they transform. I totally agree with you. Besides all the comments which have been made regarding robes and wands etc (some by me), I knew there were other examples niggling away at me, so I've looked them up - Sirius Black manages to keep the press cutting from the Daily Prophet whilst he is transformed. This is the least conclusive example, as the cutting was obviously kept in a pocket of his robes. What is more interesting is: Professor McGonagall in PS: "He turned to smile at the tabby, but it had gone. Instead he was smiling at a rather severe-looking woman who was wearing square glasses exactly the shape of the markings the cat had had around it's eyes." And in GoF, Rita Skeeter: Hermione says: "Look very closely and you'll notice the markings around her antennae are exactly like those foul glasses she wears." Is this conclusive proof that items on the Witch/Wizard's person are transformed along with the human body? It seems so. What I find interesting, though, is what would happen if the person were to change their glasses? Would the markings on the animal change as well? Catherine From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 08:10:00 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:10 +0100 Subject: Draco is E.Vil (long stream of consciousness rant) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25251 The most interesting thing about Draco, to my mind, is his fascinating double (or multiple) lives. When trapped between the pages of canon he is a horrid little brat with a cowardly disposition, racist views and appalling taste in friends (I agree, incidentally, with whoever said that he is a badly socialised child, but you have to feel sorry for him - am I the only one to have noticed that Crabbe and Goyle haven't uttered a syllable in the entire canon? the poor kid must be desperate just for a decent conversation, for goodness sake. It's obvious they can talk because Draco didn't get surprised when the Polyjuiced Ron and Harry did, but as far as intellectual stimulation goes the lad would be better off breeding racing flobberworms. In fact the strongest argument for the gathering at the end of GoF being of all Voldie's supporters rather than of any inner circle is the presence of Crabbe and Goyle(presumably, Crabbe Snr and Goyle Snr respectively) in it. I know Voldie told them, presumably more in hope than expectation, "try to do better this time around" but I still think that unless my other theory is correct and the Crabbes and the Goyles are enormously wealthy, and bankrolling the entire revolution, any gathering that includes them is scraping the bottom of the barrel.["When I become an evil overlord I shall introduce psychometric testing and a structured interview process for potential henchpeople"].) Still with me? Once the covers of the books are closed, however, and Draco escapes into fanon the uber-Draco emerges - a tortured, sensitive soul, simply crying out to be redeemed by the love of a good woman. Or man. Or, possibly, Kneazle. So tortured and sensitive is he, however, that any redemption is not going to last beyond the chapter's end (in the less restrained fanfic, Draco may need to be redeemed several times in the same paragraph) leaving it to be done All Over Again ["Here is an administrative announcement. For the last time, will all the mary sues out there *please* take a number and GET IN LINE."]. There are, of course, compensations: the rich complexity of the uber-Draco's sex life (frustratingly, nay, often tragically interrupted as it may be), the flawless dress sense, the nifty knack for one liners, the chance to hang out on a regular basis with characters who have a sporting chance of getting the jokes (I mean, if he'd tried the one about the grating and the very heavy hat on C&G in SS/PS they'd probably still be trying to work it out by the time OoP came out in paperback)... How do you reconcile the two? My own belief is that the canon Draco is frantically out there, somewhere in that ether in which literary characters float when the books are shut, putting messages into bottles and setting them afloat into the readership's collective stream of consciousness, in the hope that one day one of them will wash up on the beach where JKR is sitting (probably sipping a mai tai with a green umbrella in it if there's any justice in this world) and she might sit up and take notice. And what do the messages say? Well, that's anybody's guess. Personally, I incline to one of two possibilities. The first is "You bloody woman. I've been around for four books now, and the highlight of my career so far was being turned into a ferret. For god's sake, wake up and give me something interesting to do. Evil, if necessary. Messy, provided you give me enough notice to wear my second best robes in advance. But at least something better than sneering, flushing, and laughing in an unpleasant way." the second is "Start writing something which will get these women off me now!. Oh, and if *you* ever dare to mention leather trousers you're dragon fodder,Rowling." Susan From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Aug 31 09:14:04 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:14:04 -0000 Subject: Fifth Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9mnkgs+lmot@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25252 My own speculations and take on the Fifth Book timetable Agree that time pressures from the film (and the Comic Relief booklets) add up to shorter writing time. To say nothing of all the publicity event calls on her time. Suspect that GoF came closer that Jo will admit at present to coming apart in the writing due to publication deadline pressures. Not a mistake she will agree to make again I suspect. Remember that she actually wrote most of the first three texts before the Great Hype so book 4 was probably her first experience of writing under goldfish- bowl time pressure and her publishers jumping up and down behind her waving their arms like Hermione trying to answer a question in class. She didn't actually agree to *publish* all seven books at yearly intervals as a real-time tracking of a Hogwarts career did she? (Genuine question). Suspect also that she is writing substantial parts of books 6 and 7 at the same time as book 5, making sure that long term plot threads are properly linked in. So maybe 6 and 7 will eventually come out at a more regular timetable even if the CoS film puts more demands on her time. She may also ( I do hope so) have some more 'Comic Relief' style booklets on the stocks. If so these could be Christmas offerings... good stocking fillers! I have already said that a Muggle Studies textbook could help show some of the 'rules' she is working to and satisfy some of us LOONS and apprentices thereof. >From a marketing point of view it makes sense NOT to launch the new book in the immediate wake of the film. If it 'takes' in the public conscience there will be a surge of buying for the existing books. A new book at that time could absorb some of the cash otherwise spent on the existing series. I suspect her publishers have taken this as a strategic decision which shows they are confident that Book 5 will not need tie-in publicity to succeed Jo may also be slightly concerned on the "Children's books" issue. We know she has her plans and won't budge. However the PS/SS film publicity and merchandising (cuddly Norberts, Macdonalds Hoopla, posters, dressing up kits and all) will firmly set the series into the children's market in the public mind, especially for the many who will be drawn into the Potterverse for the first time. If Book 5 comes out in the middle of that and does indeed start to push forward the maturity of some of the material and perceptions then that could cause particular problems. Better to launch the book six months or so later so that its weight and complexity can be discussed in its own right. Bottom line. I am expecting a Summer or Autumn 2002 launch for book 5 assuming that the CoS Film doesn't launch until Christmas 2002. If the text for Book 5 is complete about now and ready to go to production editing very soon then spring 2002 is a possibility maybe but not before. Edis Bevan From editor at texas.net Fri Aug 31 10:18:11 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 05:18:11 -0500 Subject: Homorphus Charm (was DADA) References: <20010831070921.43831.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B8F6462.8DD3BA32@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25253 parker said: > >They do cover the Homorphous Charm, > >which turns a werewolf back into a > >person, Kelly Hurt wrote: > If this is real, why doesn't Dumbledore cure Lupin? Because this spell is not a cure. This spell, in my opinion, turns a transformed (for whatever reason) human back into his/her human form, for an unspecified length of time. It isn't permanent. The reason the village was saved by use of this spell, is that its casting upon the werewolf allowed identification of his human identity, and then steps could be taken to contain the danger. But we are told by trustworthy sources in the books that there is no cure, and that the recently discovered Wolfsbane Potion is the only way to control it. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 31 11:54:34 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:54:34 -0000 Subject: The Animagus Clothing Cop-Out (Revisited) In-Reply-To: <9mnjim+fepr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mnttq+uud1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25254 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Daniel Siegmann" wrote: > > > Sirius Black manages to keep the press cutting from the Daily Prophet > whilst he is transformed. This is the least conclusive example, as > the cutting was obviously kept in a pocket of his robes. What is > more interesting is: > > Is this conclusive proof that items on the Witch/Wizard's person are > transformed along with the human body? It seems so. What I find > interesting, though, is what would happen if the person were to > change their glasses? Would the markings on the animal change as > well? > > Catherine Good ideas, Catherine. I'll add that Sirius manages to hang onto the piece of paper, even though he swims to the mainland as a dog. So there's certainly some sort of magic that causes certain things (glasses) to show up as markings and others to (who knows?) vanish and reappear with the transformation. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 31 12:00:01 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:00:01 -0000 Subject: Homorphus Charm (was DADA) In-Reply-To: <3B8F6462.8DD3BA32@texas.net> Message-ID: <9mnu81+p103@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25255 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > Because this spell is not a cure. This spell, in my opinion, turns a > transformed (for whatever reason) human back into his/her human form, > for an unspecified length of time. It isn't permanent. The reason the > village was saved by use of this spell, is that its casting upon the > werewolf allowed identification of his human identity, and then steps > could be taken to contain the danger. But we are told by trustworthy > sources in the books that there is no cure, and that the recently > discovered Wolfsbane Potion is the only way to control it. > > --Amanda > > I never thought of that. But if this spell temporarily transforms the werewolf back into a man, Black could have used it on Lupin instead of chasing him into the forest. That likely would have prevented Pettigrew's escape. Maybe Black doesn't know this spell? Is this the same spell Lupin and Black used to transform Pettigrew? Cindy > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Aug 31 12:17:49 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:17:49 -0000 Subject: Children & Racism-- Draco Thoughts In-Reply-To: <9mmpks+aq82@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mnv9d+9cfb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25256 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote: > Unfortunately, it's been my experience that [the belief that there is little hope of redemption for those who spout racist epthets is] true. I work at a living history site, deal with slavery history, and the amount of racist comments (in 2001!)is astounding. Usually, it's people who were raised to think that way from childhood and they haven't gotten over it, or learned any differently. Some people don't come out & say it--that would be Politically Incorrect, but you can see it in their body language. I'm also white, which may help. Thankfully, it *is* getting better. I've only had a couple of people like that since I started my job as the weaver. (I was a guide-- volunteer-- before) > > Peace & Plenty, > > Parker I agree that it is getting better, and am very grateful to JKR for doing her part. However, as an African American HP fan, I want to share with you all a word of caution. A racist view learned from ones parents and spouted by rote does not make one irredeemable. Racist actions to the detriment of others, while far worse than the thoughts or words, do not make one irredeemable either. It is racist beliefs that keep a person from growing in themselves that are the most damnable offenses, for it is the purpose of humanity to grow and learn. Bigotry and racism, like Chauvinism, militant Nationalism, or religious zealotry, are acquired tastes. They are not natural. They are learned behaviors. While their ostensible purpose is to protect the group identity of the persons holding the views in question, what they actually do is blind us to the wisdom and value of people different than ourselves. How strange! How is the group knowledge to increase if its base of learning is limited to such incestuous congress? These ideologically limiting tools are primarily used to prevent young members of the group from indulging their natural curiousity about other people and accidentally straying from the "family". This is great when it works. We teach our children right and wrong, hope they eat right, brush their teeth, and stay away from "those other people" because we do not want them to have the same troubles we ourselves have seen. Patriotism, devout faith, liberal idealism are all closely related to nationalism, zealotry and facism, in terms of the way we pass our values to our young. The problem comes when our survival depends on obtaining knowledge from a source obeyond our notion of what's "acceptable". If our need to affirm our group's rightness, superiority, divinity etc., prevents us from hearing the wisdom of others, then our views are counter-productive to our growth and survival (Think of the Romans burning the libraries at Alexandria, because they did not understand the value of the Egyptians' knowledge). Racism is stupid because it prevents the racist from gaining anything valuable from the experiences of the target group. Harry is not perfect. Mudbloods have their issues. Neither Lee Jordan, nor Dean Thomas, nor Angelina Johnson have proven to be exceptional in any particular regard. But they all have an advantage over Draco. Their natural sense of wonder has not been perverted by small minded parents. They all still have a chance to grow. 4FR (forced to monitor racism, the way most people monitor the weather) From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 12:24:50 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:24:50 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <3B8E8695.F839A5F4@qnet.com> Message-ID: <9mnvmi+lqbv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25257 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > > --- - In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit [snip] > and I'll add, The villains have everything they need to make their > attack, but inexplicably wait till the end of term. PS/SS and CoS > are the worst offenders, but GoF comes close. > This doesn't add up for me. It probably took Quirrell quite some time how to work out ways of overcoming all of the obstacles to the Stone: Fluffy, Devil's snare, etc. He didn't wait till the end of term to "attack." In CoS, it took Ginny writing in the diary for months before Tom Riddle's memory became strong enough to emerge from the book. Her writing in it produced a cumulative effect. And I recently opined that Barty Crouch, Jr. could very well have needed all year to research the perfect Portkey, so that explains that timing. The inexplicable one, in my book, is PoA. Once he was free, Sirius Black could have sent an owl to Remus Lupin explaining what really happened with the Fidelius Charm and inform him that Peter Pettigrew is alive and well and being kept as a pet rat by Ron Weasley, who was at Hogwarts. Sirius needn't even have known that Lupin was teaching at Hogwarts, although that would have made it easier for him to go apprehend Peter. If Lupin doubted such a letter from a prison escapee who he thought betrayed his friends, all he had to do was get Ron to bring him the rat and put the spell on him to turn him into a human again. If it didn't work, as was pointed out in the Shrieking Shack chapter of PoA, there wouldn't be any harm done. The timing of the climax for the other books makes a certain amount of sense, IMHO. For PoA, less so. --Barb From tabouli at unite.com.au Fri Aug 31 12:40:34 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:40:34 +1000 Subject: Kiddiefic reprise, dead at heart Harry, Lily/Snape, racism Message-ID: <005801c1321a$361b93c0$d0846fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 25258 Penny: > My argument is that GoF crosses the line for sure into adult literature, and the latter 3 books promise to go even further. So ... how to categorize the *series*. Is it a "childrens' series" just because Harry was 11 when it all started? Seems short-sighted to me. < > Someone did make the point that in their opinion the HP books are about children and told from the POV of children and hence must be childrens' literature. Like Robyn, I disagree with this position. I define "children's books" as something along the lines of "books which appeal to more than a tiny elite of people under 15". And yes, the great majority of books in this category do have child protagonists, but child protagonists aren't limited to this category by any means. How about "The Go-Between", which is definitely adult fiction, but is written in first person from the POV of a 12 year old boy (albeit via his 60 year old self)? "Lolita", which centres around a 12 year old girl? Don't see any arguments about where to categorise these books, do we? Why? Because of the themes in the books, and how they are handled. I will bravely come out and say that I *do* see HP as children's books, and that this is NOT by any means a slur on them. They are well-written, sophisticated children's books, so much so that they appeal to adults as well, even those who refuse to identify the books as such because they have patronising assumptions about the genre. However, the subject matter (wizard school), the way JKR handles the heavy themes she raises, is IMO child-oriented, not adult-oriented. And yes, yes, I know JKR said she didn't originally intend them to be "children's books", but when you start writing a story you don't necessarily have a target audience in mind... inspiration just flows and when you get to the end you think, hmm, now what shall I do with this? Regarding the death of Harry: For the record, my money is on the pyrrhic (sp?) victory option a la Lord of the Rings. Harry defeats Voldemort and survives, but at a terrible price, leaving him bitter and scarred and empty beyond his years and peers. Amy Z: > Koinonia, if you found a Snape Didn't Give a Fig About Lily club (with a clever acronym of course), I'll pay my 2 Sickles and join up. Hah! I think Amanda and I will just have to set up a Rival Club then and throw tomatoes at you... (the Everything Makes Sense if Snape Loved Lily Society?). And hey, it's *not* because I'm particularly into the concept of having a bit of Romance in the plot: I'm generally bobbing about on a non-committal little lifeboat checking out the major ships without comment. It's just that, as those long lists of plot devices we don't want to see again showed, I think this is one obvious and valid device she *hasn't* used which explains Snape's peculiar behaviour so well... frankly, I think yet another unregistered Animagus would be far more excruiciating. More Amy Z: > Lockhart, well, everyone hates Lockhart; he's incompetent, overbearing, and conceited. Who says everyone hates Lockhart? As a character (not as a person, that's totally different), I think he's great. The Valentine's Day scene is one of my all-time favorites. "Professor Flitwick knows more about Entrancing Enchantments than any wizard I've ever met, the sly old dog!" B.K. DeLong: > I just posted some news about new possible book titles for book 6 and 7: (Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell, Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat, and Harry Potter and the Chariots of Light) Um, is it just me, or are these titles a touch... naff? (correct usage of naff, English listmembers??) Especially the Chariots of Light. tillrules: > True enough, but there are certain things which are essentially unchangeable. And racism is one of them. OT though this is, I can't let this pass. I wrote an entire thesis on this topic and run workshops which aim to do it. Yes, you *can* change racism. There's piles of evidence that it can be done, though it gets harder the more entrenched and closed-minded the racist in question is. For example, it's amazing how much prejudice has its origin in very simple differences in cultural rules. If people *understand* that the rules for social behaviour are different and which ones the other party is likely to break, it's a very good start in reducing prejudice (hence close friendships across cultures can be useful, especially if one or both parties have some cross-cultural insight). Let me illustrate. A typical Australian woman whose best female friend had a shockin' haircut would either tactfully ignore it or reassure her about it. I mentioned this in one of my workshops about Australian culture, and a woman from Northern Europe (Germany, I think) thought this was ridiculous... "What are friends for if not to tell you the truth about yourself?" Now, I have no idea whether this was specific to this woman or is actually the rule in Germany (so apologies in advance to any offended Germans on the list!), but let's say it's the rule in Germany, for the sake of illustration. OK, so let's imagine this German woman (let's call her Astrid) didn't know what the Australian "tact" rule was and became close friends with an Australian (called Kylie :-) ). Kylie has an absolute shocker of a haircut, hideous, gruesome, fright wig worse case scenario, and is desperate to be reassured that it's not too bad or at least that it could be repaired or grown out fairly easily. Astrid sees the shocker haircut and tells Kylie straight that it looks bad and doesn't suit her, Kylie is devastated and hurt. How could a friend say that to her? If Kylie later finds that *all* the Germans she meets do the same, she will probably end up concluding that Germans are tactless and cold and not supportive of their friends' self-esteem. Alternatively, let's say Astrid had the killer haircut, and Kylie has no idea that Germans believe in being straight with their friends. Astrid, Kylie and everyone else in the world who sees the haircut knows full well that it's abominable, yet Kylie reassures her that it's not so bad, actually it makes her look kind of like Sinead O'Connor. You can't be serious, it's ghastly, says Astrid. No, no, lies Kylie, and continues lying ever more valiantly and less convincingly, until Astrid either concludes that she has terrible taste in hairstyles or, worse, that Kylie is insincere and she can't trust her to give an honest opinion. Again, if all of the Australians she meets do the same thing, she may end up concluding that Australians are insincere and untrustworthy and mouth platitudes to each other rather than facing up to the truth. jenny from ravenclaw: > To look at it in relation to HP, I haven't seen on the news a story about some kid trying to fly a broomstick off the roof because he thought he could "fly like Harry Potter". Actually, a little boy who used to live across the road from me really did jump off the roof trying to be Superman... (but he was 5 at the time, a touch below HP age). re: Sirius, Snape and Lupin As I said a while ago, I'm convinced Sirius' act was impulsive and thoughtless. Negligently manslaughterous rather than deliberately murderous. Little Alex: > Talking about that, are there no Muggle-born or 'half-blood' currently in Slytherin? You have to wonder whether there are *enough* purebloods to fill Slytherin: isn't there a growing shortage? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Aug 31 12:38:26 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:38:26 -0000 Subject: One Last Thing About Children's Literature In-Reply-To: <20010831.012448.-154809.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <9mo0g2+p5uf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25259 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia wrote: > What I find refreshing about Rowling is her > *realistic* portrayal of (so far) preteen sexual matters - it's a > concern, but by no means the only one. > Is sex dirty? No. In fact, it's so holy and beautiful, it should remain > more private than it does today. JKR doesn't play the sex card. She lets > her characters mature normally, and doesn't sacrifice them on the altar > of the avant-garde. > Basically, I'm all for including all the normal ticklish subjects - > death, love, hate, prejudice, coming of age etc. But I'm not for > freakishness. Let's not have all the students capturing a Veela and > raping her, please. Let's keep it in the realm of the normal (while being > in the realm of the magical, of course.) > Sorry to rant. It's getting late, and that brings out the worst in me. > > Robyn > Thank you, thank you, thank you. You have said in one post what I have failed to communicate in nearly 20 since I first posted. HP is about the loss of innocense, the coming of maturity, the distinctions between right and wrong, the power of good in the face of evil, and the bonds of love and friendship. In other words, its a children's book because it is about what childhood is about, growing up. JKR, a mother, and a former child, has been extremely faithful to the needs of her target audience, which has always been the child in her and in us. Her touch has been nearly perrfect, and that is why we adore her work. She must be a wonderful person. I am certain that Harry will live, because the child in us needs to know there is a reward for right choices, for standing up to evil, to having faith in ourselves and in our compatriots. She has added a spectacular chapter to the canon of fantasy works that communicate traditional values, where traditional means truthful, enduring and of great value. 4FR From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 13:17:14 2001 From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:17:14 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's and Voldemort's wands In-Reply-To: <9mlqkd+4vlt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mo2oq+hukc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25260 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > When Voldemort's wand regurgitates spells, they are: screams, hand, > screams, Cedric, screams, Frank Bryce, Bertha, Lily, James. > > But the text doesn't match up with this if Voldemort's wand is doing > all the work at the graveyard. Wormtail performs two other bits of > magic. After killing Cedric, he "conjured tight cords around Harry", > tying him to the headstone. Then, after Wormtail brings out the > cauldron, "Wormtail was busying himself at the bottom of the cauldron > with a wand. Suddenly there were cracking flames beneath it." > > So what's going on? If Wormtail used V's wand to conjure ropes and > start a fire, those spell should come out of V's wand. > > It is possible, of course, that Wormtail conjured the ropes without a > wand. I think the only example we have of this is when Quirrel does > it in PS/SS. Frankly, I always found this rather peculiar because > Lupin, Dumbledore and Snape all need wands for this spell. But we > are specifically told that Wormtail uses the wand to start the fire. > > Another theory is that Wormtail uses his own wand to conjure the > ropes and start the fire, so that is why they don't come out of V's > wand. But this is very odd, too. Wormtail uses V's wand to kill > Cedric. So in the seconds between killing Cedric and grabbing Harry, > are we supposed to believe that Wormtail puts V's wand down and > starts using his own? Why would he do that? If that is what JKR > intends, then we know for a fact that Wormtail still has his own wand. > > My theory is that this could be another mini-glitch in the priori > incantantem, and fire and ropes should have flown out of V's wand > during the duel (would have been really dramatic, too). But that's > just my theory. > > Cindy > > I never saw this before. Maybe Pettigrew grabbed Cedric's wand and used that? Laura From klhurt at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 13:23:25 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (klhurt at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:23:25 -0000 Subject: 2000 Message-ID: <9mo34d+j1la@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25261 It's just too grand: This list now has 2000 members. Congratulations! Kelly the Yarn Junkie From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 13:41:59 2001 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 06:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <3B8E8695.F839A5F4@qnet.com> Message-ID: <20010831134159.74263.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25262 --- foxmoth at qnet.com wrote: > > --- - In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" > wrote: > > > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A > Bit > > > > > > > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > > > > > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > > > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > > > > The Time Turner (Cindy) > > > > > Veritaserum (Cindy) > > > > > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > > > > > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > > > > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > > > > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) > > > > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > > > > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > > > > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > > > > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > > > > > Dobby and Winky (Luce) > > > > > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) > > > > > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) > > > > > The Pensieve (Haggrid) > > > Whomping Willow (Cindy) > > >>>>>>past, present, future selves (Herald Talia) > > and I'll add, > The villains have everything they need to make their > attack, but > inexplicably wait till the end of term. PS/SS and CoS are > the worst > offenders, but GoF comes close. > > Pippin >>>>>>>> howlers (maryblue) ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 31 13:43:24 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:43:24 -0000 Subject: Waiting to Attack In-Reply-To: <9mnvmi+lqbv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mo49s+6qos@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25263 Barb wrote: > The inexplicable one, in my book, is PoA. Once he was free, Sirius > Black could have sent an owl to Remus Lupin explaining what really > happened with the Fidelius Charm and inform him that Peter Pettigrew > is alive and well and being kept as a pet rat by Ron Weasley, who was > at Hogwarts. Sirius needn't even have known that Lupin was teaching > at Hogwarts, although that would have made it easier for him to go > apprehend Peter. If Lupin doubted such a letter from a prison > escapee who he thought betrayed his friends, all he had to do was get > Ron to bring him the rat and put the spell on him to turn him into a > human again. If it didn't work, as was pointed out in the Shrieking > Shack chapter of PoA, there wouldn't be any harm done. The timing of > the climax for the other books makes a certain amount of sense, > IMHO. For PoA, less so. > > --Barb I wasn't troubled by Sirius' timing. First, we know he was weak when he escaped, and he had to journey to Hogwarts. This may have taken some time, I think until Halloween. Second, getting a reliable owl right away may have been difficult or impossible. Eventually, Sirius hooks up with Crookshanks, and that is the means by which Sirius is able to have access to communication. That's not until Christmas. Third, he doesn't "wait to attack." He attacks a few times (fat lady and using a knife). Indeed, his attacks seem to be getting more reckless and risky as the book progresses. Fourth, I'm not sure it would be a smart move to reveal all to Lupin too quickly. Sirius knows nothing of Lupin's feelings about Sirius at this point, so it's hard to know what Lupin might do with any information Sirius might provide. What if Lupin weren't teaching at Hogwarts but was a hit wizard with MoM? But above all, Sirius wants one thing: revenge. He wants to kill Peter all by himself, with his bare hands if he has to. He's through with relying on anyone else to do this. So the whole chronology worked very well for me. IMHO, of course. Cindy From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 13:46:43 2001 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 06:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hello! In-Reply-To: <3B8EB71F.9010400@swbell.net> Message-ID: <20010831134643.50043.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25264 Hello! i'm new to this list. i'm 24. I am a Ph.D. student in engineering, and i love the harry potter books!!! hope i can find some interesting conversation here with fellow adults who love the books too. I'm spanish, but i am in the US now, in Maryland. Nice to be here ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 13:46:52 2001 From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:46:52 -0000 Subject: Plot Devices that deserve an encore Message-ID: <9mo4gc+g8v3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25265 We've discussed plot devices that we think should be retired. Is there any interest in a list of plot devices that we'd like to see again? I sense a general consensus for the revolving DADA professors. Laura From degroote at altavista.com Fri Aug 31 13:54:36 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 31 Aug 2001 06:54:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PDW"DO"WTSAFAB (was Re: PDWDWTSAFAB) Message-ID: <20010831135436.27048.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 25266 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 15:03:57 2001 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Burning PoA question In-Reply-To: <20010830.185821.-81433.3.HeraldTalia@juno.com> Message-ID: <20010831150357.61099.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25267 well, when they walk in the tunnel back from the shack, don't they update each other a bit? Maryblue --- Herald Talia wrote: > Yes, but how does he know that Harry doesn't have a form? > Many other > muggleborns do - Hermione does, and we can presume > characters like Justin > Finch-Fletchey does. Harry seems to be the only one left > out. How does > Sirius know this? My point wasn't about Hogwarts forms - > clearly, he's > familiar with those. My point was his anticipation of > Harry's needs. > Remember, he knows nothing about the Dursleys. He's not > even confident > that Harry will want to move in with him, he seems to > think Harry might > even *like* the Dursleys. They also did not have any > heart to heart chats > yet. So I think the question still stands. :-) > Robyn > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:23:15 -0500 (CDT) "Joel N. > Fischoff" > writes: > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Herald Talia wrote: > > >At the end of PoA, Sirius sends Harry a permission > slip to go to > > >Hogsmeade. How does he know Harry needs one? They > really didn't > > have much > > >time to talk at the end of that book. > > > > Uh. Well, Sirius DID go to Hogwarts himself.... > > > > > > Joel ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 15:29:33 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:29:33 -0000 Subject: Lily/Snape, racism/Draco/Slytherins/Quirrell In-Reply-To: <005801c1321a$361b93c0$d0846fcb@price> Message-ID: <9moagu+ne2i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25268 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Amy Z: > > > Koinonia, if you found a Snape Didn't Give a Fig About Lily club (with a > clever acronym of course), I'll pay my 2 Sickles and join up. > > Hah! I think Amanda and I will just have to set up a Rival Club >then and throw tomatoes at you... (the Everything Makes Sense if >Snape Loved Lily Society?). And hey, it's *not* because I'm >particularly into the concept of having a bit of Romance in the >plot: I'm generally bobbing about on a non-committal little lifeboat >checking out the major ships without comment. It's just that, as >those long lists of plot devices we don't want to see again showed, >I think this is one obvious and valid device she *hasn't* used which >explains Snape's peculiar behaviour so well... frankly, I think yet >another unregistered Animagus would be far more excruiciating. Actually, *Snape Didn't Give a Fig About Lily* sounds pretty good. I'm joining the club immediately! I don't mind a bit of romance in the book and I agree that JKR hasn't used this plot device before. I do believe that Snape's behavior can be linked to love. I'm going to stand by my belief that it was Snape/Black/some other. This makes me think of when Snape was reading Rita Skeeter's article to the class and he says, "Well, I think I had better separate the three of you, so you can keep your minds on your potions rather that on your tangled love lives." This is coming from someone who knows about tangled love lives, IMO, and it wasn't Snape/James/Lily. I just can't comment on this any longer....I told 'ya' I get uptight about this theory :>) Amy Z wrote (ages ago in message 22641): >Just because certain members of this list Who Must Not Be Name would >like to see Snape au naturel....;-) Are we starting another club? What shall we name this one? Concerning Draco: Tillrules wrote in message 25176: >True enough, but there are certain things which are essentially >unchangeable. Racism, in my view is one of them. To me, his >attempts to get Hagrid fired, which he knows would be a crushing >blow to a character that has very little life outside Hogwarts, does >render him irredeemable. Tabouli wrote: > OT though this is, I can't let this pass. I wrote an entire thesis >on this topic and run workshops which aim to do it. Yes, you *can* >change racism. Tillrules wrote: >We do not know that he was the type of child Draco is, kind of the >kid who drowns puppies & cats to see them squirm. Rita wrote: >Draco doesn't drown kittens and puppies to see them squirm, he does >it to try to prove to his father that he isn't soft. Of course racism is changeable. So do we look at Draco and the Slytherins and just call them racist? Are they the only racist people in the wizarding world? Is there no hope for them? If that is the case then it won't be much of a story. I don't want to see all those in Slytherin end up as evil and all the other grand houses end up on the good side. In a way, Harry and others (including Hagrid) are not willing to give *any* of the Slytherins a chance. (True, most of the Slytherins have not been great examples of goodness). What would you call that attitude? I don't regard Draco as pure evil. I have yet to see any examples of that. Trying to get Hagrid fired doesn't make Draco totally evil. How do we know that Lucius wasn't telling Draco what to do? Lucius saw an opportunity to get Hagrid gone and he ran with it. I tend to think of Draco as someone who does many of the things he does (as Rita said) to try to prove to his father that he isn't soft. I don't see Draco as particulary strong (standing on his own) yet. He doesn't seem to like one on one confrontations. He seems to be full of hot air most of the time. I tend to lean toward the idea that he has to present himself as a muggle/Hermione/Harry-hating person. Will Draco fight on the side of good? I don't know. I am willing to give him a chance. He is, at some point, going to turn to Snape for help IMHO. It will be up to Draco to decide what to do afterwards. Snape, who seems to have been raised in the Dark Arts, turned to Dumbledore and got a second chance. Let's hope Draco, who was raised by a DE, will not chose the same path as dear dad. Little Alex wrote: > Talking about that, are there no Muggle-born or 'half-blood' >currently in Slytherin? I assume they'd take offense to Draco >continually mouthing them off if there are... Tabouli wrote: > You have to wonder whether there are *enough* purebloods to fill >Slytherin: isn't there a growing shortage? For some reason I think Snape is a 'half-blood'. I don't know why. There's nothing in canon to back me up. Just a suspicion. pbnesbit wrote: >Question: Do you think Quirrell was a good teacher until he took a >year off? Kelly wrote: >We don't know that Quirrell ever taught before SS/PS. PoS 'Oh, yeah. Poor bloke. Brilliant mind. He was fine while he was studyin' outta books but then he took a year off ter get some first-hand experience...They say he met vampires in the Black Forest and there was a nasty bit o'trouble with a hag - never been the same since. Scared of the students, scared of his own subject....' I could see where one could get the idea Quirrell was a teacher who took some time off to get some first hand-experience. I think that was one reason Snape was so suspicious of Quirrell. They had probably worked together before and then Quirrell shows up with that silly turban on his head and acting strangely. Koinonia From frantyck at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 15:39:30 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:39:30 -0000 Subject: Refreshing innocence Message-ID: <9mob3i+td05@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25269 The recent refreshing innocence thread was fascinating, and frustrating. I attended a co-ed, non-religious boarding school for nine years, and I don't honestly remember much "refreshing innocence" of the sort some members of this list approved of. This is not to say that from the age of nine we lived in a sexually-charged world; on the contrary, we thought holding hands with a girl was an outrageous heart-thumping adventure well into high school. Very little exaggeration here. What I mean is that children are aware from pretty early that boys and girls "go" together somehow. Part of being cool and popular is attracting the attention of others, especially those of the opposite sex. The HP characters, schoolkids though they may be, have a lively awareness of the opposite sex, which some of you have pointed out. I'd say it begins to show in CoS (Percy's kissing, at least). By PoA, there is a physical element to the awareness, obviously (Ron's Uranus line), some of the schoolboy toilet humour that accompanies all those physical changes, curiosity about each other's bodies and about girls... it's very earthy, and very normal. IMO, if Ron is saying that to a female classmate, and elicits no more than a sour look in return, there's a healthy degree of sexual tension present already. Children talk about each other all the time, saying nice and not-nice things. On occasion, children can be breathtakingly rude, cruel even, to each other. No news there. They are accomplished and inquisitorial judges. There is little defence against rumour, after all. Of course, none of this need show up in the text, beyond the extent to which it impinges on the story. It's pretty clear that Rowling is very economical in what she chooses to include; her books are, by and large, plot-driven. If, as seems to have been a late consensus on the "children's books or adults' books" thread, the HP books are indeed a story of growing up for growing children (or for the children in us adults -- a queasy formulation, but one which IMO is not bad), then surely the reader should be able to fill in the subtext of school life, good and bad. Children are not merely small adults. They are only learning about the weight of consequence and the shortage of second chances. The issues of rape and all those other horrible things that some of you thought represent the experience of the real world... certainly children are aware of them. But -- in the small world of an isolated boarding school (believe me when i say it is a small world), such terrors do not often intrude. The Hogwarts world and even the wizarding world is too small for such crimes that depend on anonymity. Rrishi From mariannayus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 15:41:58 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Waiting to Attack In-Reply-To: <9mo49s+6qos@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010831154158.91319.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25270 > I wasn't troubled by Sirius' timing. First, we know > he was weak when > he escaped, and he had to journey to Hogwarts. This > may have taken > some time, I think until Halloween. > > Second, getting a reliable owl right away may have > been difficult or > impossible. Eventually, Sirius hooks up with > Crookshanks, and that > is the means by which Sirius is able to have access > to > communication. That's not until Christmas. > > Third, he doesn't "wait to attack." He attacks a > few times (fat lady > and using a knife). Indeed, his attacks seem to be > getting more > reckless and risky as the book progresses. > > Fourth, I'm not sure it would be a smart move to > reveal all to Lupin > too quickly. Sirius knows nothing of Lupin's > feelings about Sirius > at this point, so it's hard to know what Lupin might > do with any > information Sirius might provide. What if Lupin > weren't teaching at > Hogwarts but was a hit wizard with MoM? > > But above all, Sirius wants one thing: revenge. He > wants to kill > Peter all by himself, with his bare hands if he has > to. He's through > with relying on anyone else to do this. So the > whole chronology > worked very well for me. > > IMHO, of course. > > Cindy To add to this that after all that time in Azkaban he isn't exactly thinking logically. His mind must be quite a mess. I alos agree on that point about Lupin. Concidering what he'll get if he choses wrong (and Lupin does turn him in), I could see why he's reluctant to approach. After all there is a difference between taking risks by planning something dangerous/reckless you do relying wholly on yourself (e.g. Fat Lady), and putting your life in someone's hands. Add to this that Azkaban sucks all the happy memories out of you, and just leaves you miserable/depressed, I could see how that state of mind would erode any trust he might have had otherwise. Marsha/Marianna, who is fine with most plot devises, but Animagi is getting old. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From smorgan at access.digex.net Fri Aug 31 15:46:46 2001 From: smorgan at access.digex.net (smorgan at access.digex.net) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:46:46 -0000 Subject: Slytherin composition In-Reply-To: <20010831080637.21056.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9mobh6+fokd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25271 > > >Talking about that, are there no > > >Muggle-born or 'half-blood' currently > > >in Slytherin? > > >--- Kelly Hurt wrote: > > With a password like 'pureblood', I doubt it > > seriously. > > themselves? Also, *why* isn't there any Muggle-borns > and/or 'halfbloods' currently in Slytherin? Tom > Riddle was in Slytherin, wasn't he? There is no reason to think that muggle-born or half-bloods could not be part of House Slytherin - the sorting hat makes its choice depending upon what characteristics the child displays. If those match the ones that the House founder valued then they are sorted appropriately. One can counter: But one of Slytherin's values was 'purity of blood' - granted, but when you have x values and the child matches y of them stronger than he matches those of the other houses, it's fairly likely the child will be sorted Slytherin. We really have a fairly myopic view of Slytherin as it's focused on Draco's year, in which he's made a clique of hangers-on. I'm perfectly willing to believe that other years and other Slytherin chidren have different views. Draco's personal likes and dislikes come to the fore mainly because the other kids want to be in his 'pack' for lack of a better way to put it - they don't speak out about how they feel, but go along with the alpha and parrot his views. Don't get me wrong, I think Malfoy's a prat - but I recall a discussion where someone notes that Slytherin are not evil, just posessed of a different set of morals/ambitions. The fact that Draco is the son of a Death Eater and trying very hard to be the boy he thinks his father wants him to be colors our impression of the House, since he's leading the lot of them that we see most. Anyway, that's my take on it. Salt to taste. Scott From tillrules at aol.com Fri Aug 31 15:53:45 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:53:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin composition (was Re: Draco is Evil) Message-ID: <61.12cf2a1f.28c10d09@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25272 In a message dated 8/30/2001 7:15:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, litalex at yahoo.com writes: << I think the original poster (sorry!) meant close contact where the possibility of friendship is looming close. Draco doesn't...associate with Muggle-borns and therefore doesn't really have enough meaningful contact to change his mind. I have no doubt that he's a spoiled little brat, but I still think he hasn't completely gone over to the Dark Side' yet. Talking about that, are there no Muggle-born or 'half-blood' currently in Slytherin? I assume they'd take offense to Draco continually mouthing them off if there are, but the Slytherin table always seems so...filled with commaradie. >> BUt we've had it established that he interacts with "mudbloods" every class period (since the classes always seem to be mixed) and that partnering between members of houses is common in classes (Harry's worked with Ernie MacMillan and Justin Finch Fletcher in herbology, for example), so saying he has not had a chance to bond with others is not really a valid thing here. There was also a point raised earlier that I found interesting. The poster was parraleling Snape & Malfoy, which seems to be the hope for Draco's redemption by his fans, ie... Draco is to Harry what Snape was to James , thus Draco will become redeemed as well. Again, we don't know what Snape did as a child, the evidence seems to be that he was simply a weaselly type. He was a Slithiern and thus there was a natural rivalry between him & James. We do not have evidence that his actions went beyond that rivalry in the way that Draco's have, to encompass a) racism and b) intentional attempts to hurt others. Also, it should be noted that Snape did actually become a DE, so it took that extreme before he was rehabilitated. The "life saving" by James did not rehabilitate Snape, he still went on to become a DE. So again, it will be a stretch to see Draco rehabbed by actions in school. From deeblite at home.com Fri Aug 31 15:49:26 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:49:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: slightly OT: SEX (in HP) In-Reply-To: <9mm3li+8av1@eGroups.com> References: <9mm1ce+pggc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010831114846.037f0cb0@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25273 At 07:20 PM 8/30/01 +0000, you wrote: > > To look at it in relation to HP, I haven't seen on the news a story > > about some kid trying to fly a broomstick off the roof because he > > thought he could "fly like Harry Potter". > > >Nor have I, but as we all know, flying a broomstick is impossible. Oh i dunno about THAT.. if you strap a jet engine to one i think you might get airborn. Of course you'll probably also win a Darwin award in the process. >-- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From bbennett at joymail.com Fri Aug 31 16:04:41 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:04:41 -0000 Subject: Kiddiefic reprise In-Reply-To: <005801c1321a$361b93c0$d0846fcb@price> Message-ID: <9mocip+ut2g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25274 Of course this discussion both hits full swing and winds down on the day my computer misbehaves :*). Penny: > My argument is that GoF crosses the line for sure into adult literature, and the latter 3 books promise to go even further. So ... how to categorize the *series*. Is it a "childrens' series" just because Harry was 11 when it all started? Seems short-sighted to me. > You can pretty much add a "ditto" for me on this. Tabouli: I don't refuse to identify the HP books as solely for children because I have patronizing ideas about children's literature. My point remains this - I believe a well-written children's book should be fully *comprehensible* at the average young reader's level. If this criteria is not met, I don't think the book can be classified as strictly children's lit, and I don't believe Harry Potter meets this criteria. This is in no way a criticism of children's literature or a criticism of the Harry Potter books - nor am I saying children shouldn't read Potter OR any other literature they might not fully understand until they're a bit older (believe me, I'm an equal opportunity book pusher :*). Many people on this list have agreed that they believe some of the more complicated plot aspects of Harry Potter will not be fully understood until the reader is older, and I think we can expect the complexity of the series will increase as the books progress. There are other points that can be debated (does the age of characters have anything to do with classification, length of text, what audience does the book appeal to, etc.), but I see them as secondary to the "yes or no - is this book completely understandable by a young reader?" question. And while I understand and may agree to a certain extent with the argument that books are categorized by how they are marketed, this doesn't change how well a book will or won't be understood by the general reader in the audience to which it is marketed. Mark Twain believed Tom Sawyer should be marketed to adults, but was convinced it would sell well to children, which it did. But the fact it was marketed to children or that it features a child doesn't make it solely children's literature. I'll use Sharon Creech as an example again - she is a brilliant author, and her books are written to be fully comprehended by the average young reader. I also consider JK Rowling a brilliant writer, but if there are aspects of her books that aren't (and won't be, as the series progresses) fully understood by the average young reader, then how can those books strictly fit in the same category as Creech's books (i.e. to say that they are fully understood by the average reader under 12)? If Creech's books are "children's books", then Rowling's at the very least should be "children through adult books". This is also why I don't think the HP books should be left off the general NY Times Best Seller List. OK, I'll shut up now! But come on, you have to admit this has been an interesting topic :*). Best, B From tillrules at aol.com Fri Aug 31 16:07:39 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:07:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Draco/Evil - trademarked titles - Birtha Jorkins - ot... Message-ID: <84.1aa1d489.28c1104b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25275 In a message dated 8/30/2001 9:53:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, catlady at wicca.net writes: << Tillrules wrote: > In the other hand, in the midst of an ongoing > series of accidents, Draco hopes that Hermione > will be next, purely due to her "mudblood" status. NOT *purely* due to her "mudblood" status -- Draco would hate Hermione even if she were a pureblood, because he considers it to be her fault that her e.g. 112% in Charms causes his father to berate him for not having done as well. But he hated her before that, from the first solely of that status., well before the charms exam, etc. That his father berates him is an afterthought. It's pretty clear that his hatred for Hermione is due to her status. Tillrules wrote: > We do not know that he was the type of > child Draco is, kind of the kid who drowns > puppies & cats to see them squirm. Draco doesn't drown kitten and puppies to see them squirm, he does it to try to prove to his father that he isn't soft. >> That doesn't seem to be shown anywhere. He's always shown as having attitudes that jibe with his fathers. There is no evidence that I can recall of him doing what he does to impress his father, all evidence points to him doing so to emulate his father. I don't thnk its been shown at all that he's forced to be evil, he just is. From dkgrubb at earthlink.net Fri Aug 31 16:11:24 2001 From: dkgrubb at earthlink.net (dkgrubb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:11:24 -0000 Subject: Fifth book Message-ID: <9mocvc+blhb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25276 Another reason the fifth book might be taking longer: JKR is getting older, and if she wants to have any more children herself, she better spend more time with her doctor boyfriend and less with her typewriter. She can still write when she's old. From knapp_family at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 16:20:29 2001 From: knapp_family at hotmail.com (knapp_family at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:20:29 -0000 Subject: Lily, Petunia & Pansy Message-ID: <9modgd+sdou@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25277 Do you think Pansy Parkinson could be related to Lily and Petunia? From tillrules at aol.com Fri Aug 31 16:21:29 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:21:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily/Snape, racism/Draco/Slytherins/Quirrell Message-ID: <23.10bf970c.28c11389@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25278 In a message dated 8/31/2001 8:34:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Koinonia2 at hotmail.com writes: << f course racism is changeable. So do we look at Draco and the Slytherins and just call them racist? Are they the only racist people in the wizarding world? Is there no hope for them? If that is the case then it won't be much of a story. I don't want to see all those in Slytherin end up as evil and all the other grand houses end up on the good side. In a way, Harry and others (including Hagrid) are not willing to give *any* of the Slytherins a chance. (True, most of the Slytherins have not been great examples of goodness). What would you call that attitude? I don't regard Draco as pure evil. I have yet to see any examples of that. Trying to get Hagrid fired doesn't make Draco totally evil. How do we know that Lucius wasn't telling Draco what to do? Lucius saw an opportunity to get Hagrid gone and he ran with it. I tend to think of Draco as someone who does many of the things he does (as Rita said) to try to prove to his father that he isn't soft. I don't see Draco as particulary strong (standing on his own) yet. He doesn't seem to like one on one confrontations. He seems to be full of hot air most of the time. I tend to lean toward the idea that he has to present himself as a muggle/Hermione/Harry-hating person. Will Draco fight on the side of good? I don't know. I am willing to give him a chance. He is, at some point, going to turn to Snape for help IMHO. It will be up to Draco to decide what to do afterwards. Snape, who seems to have been raised in the Dark Arts, turned to Dumbledore and got a second chance. Let's hope Draco, who was raised by a DE, will not chose the same path as dear dad. >> The flaw in this argument at least in regards to Draco, is that there's no indication that Draco has any inclination to change his racist thoughts and his continuing pattern of trying to hurt others. In my opinion, racism can be limited in regards to specific individuals, but doesn't abate simply b/c one accepts one person. Using a HP example, hypothetically, let's say Harry was a racist and hated African Americans. He may come to accept Angelina for her quidditch skills or Dean as a fellow Gryffindor, but that would not mean that he had changed his attitudes about African Americans, simply that he had accepted people in his particular social group. I know a lot of people that will say "I have (African american, jewish, gay, muggle, whatever) friends and will still rail about that particular race as a whole should something offend them. I think the post before about the two Draco's is particularly accurate. Redemption is a powerful draw to a lot of people. So Draco, as such a jerk, is an appealing subject for a fantasy of redemption. So people are willing to extend him the benefit of the doubt for his actions (it's for his dad, etc...) to make him seem redeemable. But in the end, I just don't see him as redeemable. From issybizz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 17:19:03 2001 From: issybizz at hotmail.com (issybizz at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:19:03 -0000 Subject: Draco is(not) evil Message-ID: <9mogu7+6dme@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25279 Just another point to add about Draco not being the bad, evil guy! In PoA on page 54 Mr Weasley tells his wife, "but when your dealing with a wizard like Black, you sometimes have to join forces with those you'd rather avoid." Is this a subtle hint to the reader that Draco will help Harry defeat Volly in the near future? I thinks so. One more idea! Come on, Give Draco a break - he isn't that bad deep down, where it counts. Not all wizards and witches who are put into Slytherin are 100% gonna turn out to be evil and follow volly. There's always one who doesn't follow the correct criteria! ie - Padfoot turned out to be evil even though he was in Gryffindor. Not forgetting Dobby who likes time off, clothes and paying. luv issy! (v.sorry if i've offended anyone!) PS - i know this is totally off the topic, but do u think maybe the new ghost @ hogwarts could be Cedric? (Sorry again if this has been discussed before)! I guess only time will tell. From issybizz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 17:21:46 2001 From: issybizz at hotmail.com (issybizz at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:21:46 -0000 Subject: Is Ron a seer? Message-ID: <9moh3a+ga8k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25280 Has anyone else noticed that Ron seems to have mystical powers? (unconscious powers that need no wand - ie, Harry puffing up his Aunt Marge). More often than not Ron tends to have seer abilities. He predicts what's about to happen. Not convinced yet? ("You wouldn't be thinking of restarting Weasleys' Wizard Wheezers, by any chance?" p136, GoF). ("That cats got it in for Scabbers!" p111, PoA) ("What would it have been for you?" said Ron, sniggering. "A piece of homework that only got nine out of ten?" p106, PoA). ("That tap's never worked," said myrtle brightly, as he tried to turn it. "Harry," said Ron, "say something in Parseltonge." p222, CoS) ("Maybe be murdered Myrtle, that would've done everyone a favour" p173 CoS) and there are many more. Maybe, (looking at GoF), having seer powers is something that runs in the family, (unrealised probably). At the Quidditch World Cup F&G predicted, (v. confidently) "that Ireland will win - but Krum gets the snitch" p81. That correct prediction wasn't a coincidence, "Not a chance, boys, not a chance" and "good lord, i don't think any of us were expecting that!" p83 &103. Also in CoS george predicted, "He's (harry) nipping off to the chamber of secrets to have a cup of tea with his fanged servant" p157. I also have another theory (however, this is a v.week one and, most probably, has nothing to do with Rons' mystical powers). Ron didn't like Gilderoy Lockhart at all, and was convinced Lockhart was a fake, "He say's he's done". Then at the end of the CoS Lockhart looses his memory in a freak accident - can this be due to Rons' dislike of him, and is another mystical power Ron has got? I very much dought it. However, if something bad, in the future, happens to Krum then maybe i'll look deeper into it, (otherwise - plz disregard this rubbish last paragraph, thanx)! luv issy (who something's looks too deeply into the odd)! From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 17:42:02 2001 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interesting tidbit about future book titles In-Reply-To: <9mmr60+p7as@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010831174202.19106.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25281 --- mellienel2 at yahoo.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote: > > > > > > > > I believe that they are trademarked by Time Warner. > > > > > > > > > > ah, so they were. an interesting coinkydink, no? > > > > > > m. > > > > > > Well, what it has me thinking is not that it is a > coinkydink at > all, > > but that there is a reason why WB has registered them. > Why would > they > > register them if they were not.... uhm... important? > > > > Right -- which means the rumor that showed up earlier is > another > confirmation of that.. > > Here's a question: One of the titles is the Alchemists > Cell, right? > Didn't D. say that room was full of golden chamber pots? > Golden? > Could that be the alchemists cell, posing as a bathroom? > Rowling said in an interview that her favorite place in Hogwarts was certain room Dumbledore found... i think she meant the one he found on the way to the bathroom... i think we could expect to see that room again... ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From heraldtalia at juno.com Fri Aug 31 17:35:10 2001 From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:35:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Refreshing innocence Message-ID: <20010831.133521.-194165.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25282 I'd like to discuss your e-mail point by point, because I've been enjoying this thread, too. Rrishri wrote On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:39:30 -0000 frantyck at yahoo.com writes: > The recent refreshing innocence thread was fascinating, and > frustrating. > > I attended a co-ed, non-religious boarding school for nine years, > and > I don't honestly remember much "refreshing innocence" of the sort > some members of this list approved of. This is not to say that from > the age of nine we lived in a sexually-charged world; on the > contrary, we thought holding hands with a girl was an outrageous > heart-thumping adventure well into high school. Very little > exaggeration here. Exactly - and JKR does that perfectly - and while it's hard to define normality (if I could, I'd have a great dissertation topic!) that's the normal stage of childhood. At 9,holding hands with a girl should be an outrageous heart thumping adventure. When I hear about Jerry Springer topics - I was an eleven year old hooker! etc. etc. ad infinitum, I wonder what's next - I recieved "massage" clients while in utero? So what I like about Rowling is she lets her kids BE kids. They're at exactly the stage they should be at. You've got to run before you can walk. But like I said in a previous post, they're not Lolitas. They're - and this is a dirty word in some places - normal. > What I mean is that children are aware from pretty early that boys > and girls "go" together somehow. Part of being cool and popular is > attracting the attention of others, especially those of the opposite > > sex. The HP characters, schoolkids though they may be, have a lively > > awareness of the opposite sex, which some of you have pointed out. > I'd say it begins to show in CoS (Percy's kissing, at least). By > PoA, > there is a physical element to the awareness, obviously (Ron's > Uranus > line), some of the schoolboy toilet humour that accompanies all > those > physical changes, curiosity about each other's bodies and about > girls... it's very earthy, and very normal. IMO, if Ron is saying > that to a female classmate, and elicits no more than a sour look in > return, there's a healthy degree of sexual tension present already. Great ! and until they are older, lets keep it on that level - a realistic level of sexual awareness. That's healthy, fine and normal. Also, a more "innocent" kid will have those innuendoes fly right over his head, which is also good. If you don't get it, you will - and that's fine too. I teach the Harry Potter books to a discussion group for gifted 9 year olds. Some kids sniggered, some didn't get it. I didn't elaborate. It's fine that way. Let's just NOT have group sex scenes - and I don't think Jo is going there. Like I said, I think she's keeping it "normal" (Like Justice Stevens - in another context - What's normal? I know it when I see it. My own hermeneutic circle notwithstanding) > Children talk about each other all the time, saying nice and > not-nice > things. On occasion, children can be breathtakingly rude, cruel > even, > to each other. No news there. They are accomplished and > inquisitorial > judges. There is little defence against rumour, after all. > > Of course, none of this need show up in the text, beyond the extent > to which it impinges on the story. It's pretty clear that Rowling is > > very economical in what she chooses to include; her books are, by > and > large, plot-driven. If, as seems to have been a late consensus on > the "children's books or adults' books" thread, the HP books are > indeed a story of growing up for growing children (or for the > children in us adults -- a queasy formulation, but one which IMO is > not bad), then surely the reader should be able to fill in the > subtext of school life, good and bad. > > Children are not merely small adults. They are only learning about > the weight of consequence and the shortage of second chances. The > issues of rape and all those other horrible things that some of you > thought represent the experience of the real world... certainly > children are aware of them. But -- in the small world of an isolated > > boarding school (believe me when i say it is a small world), such > terrors do not often intrude. The Hogwarts world and even the > wizarding world is too small for such crimes that depend on > anonymity. I think we are basically agreeing :-) I think it's kind of sad nowadays that we have to talk about refresing innocence, when what we really mean is unskewed, normal childhood. No, I'm not saying Harry is normal - magical orphan, horrible Dursleys etc. but that he reacts to his childhood in normal, healthy ways. I'd just like to see more of that. Let's keep Britney out of the Potterverse. Or at least, confine her and her ilk to fanfics. So,what I find refreshing about the Potterverse is the healthy, unskewed attitude toward sexuality. It's developmentally appropriate for their stages. These kids aren't being forced into sexual maturity - they're slowly maturing, and that's good. This is just IMHO, but I feel vaguely uncomfotable when I see my neighbor's 9 year old in leather print minis and halters (there's nothin' to fill them with, for one thing!) But it seems vaguely exploitative. Let her "get there" on her own - she should be busy now trying to climb trees, kick soccer balls, and yes, play a (somewhat sexually symbolic) game of "you can't catch me" with the neighborhood boys. (and ya can't do that in pleather!) This is something I feel strongly about (no kidding!) and it's a thread I'd like to continue. If people want to do it OT, that's fine with me too. Any other parents out there agree? or disagree? Robyn , who's not sure if she qualifies as a prude or not. From tillrules at aol.com Fri Aug 31 17:51:17 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:51:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco is(not) evil Message-ID: <80.f7353a9.28c12895@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25283 issybizz at hotmail.com writes: Just another point to add about Draco not being the bad, evil guy! In PoA on page 54 Mr Weasley tells his wife, "but when your dealing with a wizard like Black, you sometimes have to join forces with those you'd rather avoid." Is this a subtle hint to the reader that Draco will help Harry defeat Volly in the near future? I thinks so. This is a huge stretch. Again there has been no evidence whatsoever that Draco has anythign resempbling a desire to change and help defat Voldemort. He is excited to see Voldemort return. Even the death of an innocent (Cedric) is not enough to lessen this happiness on his part. It would take some extreme & radical character changes to make his helping Harry possible and even more extreme circumstances to make it plausible. One more idea! Come on, Give Draco a break - he isn't that bad deep down, where it counts. Not all wizards and witches who are put into Slytherin are 100% gonna turn out to be evil and follow volly. There's always one who doesn't follow the correct criteria! ie - Padfoot turned out to be evil even though he was in Gryffindor. Not forgetting Dobby who likes time off, clothes and paying. How can you possibly say that Draco is not bad deep down, where it counts. He's never shown anything that indicates he is not. He has done nothing to iundicate that the potential for anything but be evil. I am not arguing that Slkytierins are presumptively evil, just that Draco as presented is evil. So the Padfoot analogy is fairly inaacurate. As is the Dobby one. Dobby acts different from his race by a choice shaped by his past. Draco has shown no inclination to change as a result of his past. He revels in his background and the upcoming return to power of Voldemort. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 31 18:08:20 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:08:20 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <9mnvmi+lqbv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mojqk+agic@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25284 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > > > --- - In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > > > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > [snip] > > and I'll add, The villains have everything they need to make their > > attack, but inexplicably wait till the end of term. PS/SS and CoS > > are the worst offenders, but GoF comes close. > > > This doesn't add up for me. It probably took Quirrell quite some > time how to work out ways of overcoming all of the obstacles to the > Stone: Fluffy, Devil's snare, etc. He didn't wait till the end of > term to "attack." > Quirrel learned how to get past Fluffy when he traded the dragon's egg to Hagrid, sometime between the end of Easter holidays and May 8th when Norbert hatched. He could have gone after the Stone anytime after that. > In CoS, it took Ginny writing in the diary for months before Tom > Riddle's memory became strong enough to emerge from the book. Her > writing in it produced a cumulative effect. Once again, Ginny recovers the diary on May 7. She's completely in Riddle's power, because there's another attack on May 8. But Riddle doesn't bring her to the Chamber until May 29. (Dates from the Harry Potter Lexicon, except May 7, mine) > > And I recently opined that Barty Crouch, Jr. could very well have > needed all year to research the perfect Portkey, so that explains > that timing. > The point is, *we* keep having to invent explanations. There is no logical reason *in the text* for the bad guys to make their climactic attack as the term ends. It's a barenaked plot device. In Prisoner of Azkaban, at least we don't have Sirius getting his paws on Pettigrew in early May but waiting until June to do something about it. BTW, I think it's perfectly logical that Sirius didn't trust anyone else to go after Pettigrew, considering what he told the kids in GoF about not knowing whom to trust where Voldemort was concerned. He might have been afraid that Lupin and Pettigrew were *both* spies. Pippin From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 18:10:00 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:10:00 -0000 Subject: Lily/Snape, racism/Draco/Slytherins/Quirrell In-Reply-To: <23.10bf970c.28c11389@aol.com> Message-ID: <9mojto+d9c0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25285 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > > The flaw in this argument at least in regards to Draco, is that there's no > indication that Draco has any inclination to change his racist thoughts and > his continuing pattern of trying to hurt others. Now would not be the right time to *outwardly* show an inclination to change his hatred of muggles. I don't think that would go over well with Lucius and the other DE's. We know that the Malfoy family is deep into the dark arts. Who knows what Draco has seen growing up? Could he not be afraid of what might happen now that Voldemort is back? What is Draco suppose to do? I'm just saying that Draco might come to the point when he does want to make a stand for the good. It's still too early to say he will turn out evil. > I think the post before about the two Draco's is particularly >accurate. > Redemption is a powerful draw to a lot of people. So Draco, as >such a jerk, > is an appealing subject for a fantasy of redemption. So people are >willing > to extend him the benefit of the doubt for his actions (it's for >his dad, > etc...) to make him seem redeemable. But in the end, I just don't >see him as > redeemable. As of yet Draco has done nothing that he needs to be redeemed for. As far as we know he isn't a DE and he hasn't killed anyone. He is a student who has only made some ugly comments. I believe one has to take responsibility for their actions so I'm not saying Draco is innocent because his father made him do it (such as the Hagrid scene). I'm saying that Lucius is probably a big influence in Draco's life right now and it will be up to Draco to decide whether he wants to be like dad or wants to live differently. Put yourself in Draco's place. If Draco doesn't want to be associated with the DE's and Voldemort, what should he do? Where can he go? Is there anyone who can help him? There is no way I can see Draco going to Dumbledore but I can see him going to Snape for help. On the other hand Draco might just love being a racist and will join the ranks of Voldemort as soon as possible. However, I still say he has done nothing that pushes him beyond the hope of joining with Dumbledore one of these days. Koinonia From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 18:10:00 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:10:00 -0000 Subject: Kids' books - OoP timing - Draco - PoA - Lockhart - PDWDWTSAFAB Message-ID: <9mojto+q9h0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25286 Lisa wrote: but I'll snip and just quote this bit: > What I do have a problem with is the idea that anything written to, or in the presence > of, or concerned with, children should be free of All Scary, Dark, > and Tragic Things. I couldn't agree more. There are reasons kids gravitate toward such books--and their more comical half-siblings, like gross-out jokes--and IMO, those reasons are valid and important. melliene12 wrote: > also, the first 3 were written before they were published. They > spaced them apart on purpose. So she hten had 3 yrs to write 4.. I don't think this can be true, because JKR has said in interviews that #2 was very, very hard to write because of all the pressure of #1's success. She has also been asked about how long it takes her to write a book and I think she has said a year is typical. Before PS/SS she also worked out the whole story arc, a lot of backstory, etc., and all of that & the writing of #1 took 5 years. Sorry no references--I can never hunt up the interview I'm looking for. I hope OoP is just taking a long time because that's how inspiration goes sometimes (or better yet, because it's going to be as long as GoF--I am resisting the urge to put Rictusempra on Ali until she spills all), but I'm sure a serious boyfriend, QTTA/FB, and movie consulting have a lot to do with it. I would never begrudge her time with her boyfriend and I applaud her incredible generosity in doing the Comic Relief books (& I love them), but I hope she scales back the movie stuff. I personally hereby promise not to nitpick about the shape of the torches on the dungeon walls if she will just stop vetting every detail and WRITE! Susan wrote > "Start writing something which will get these women off me now!. Oh, and if > *you* ever dare to mention leather trousers you're dragon fodder,Rowling." What, I wonder, could JKR possibly write that would get these women off him? She has already made him an utter slimeball, one-dimensional, immature, and a coward. His put-downs are seldom witty, IMHO; I haven't seen fit to include a single Draco line in my almost 60 sigs, though "If you were any slower, you'd be going backwards" came close, LOL. She hasn't even described him as compensatorily good-looking (and go ahead and start that thread again, but there's no line anywhere that *says* he is good-looking, or describes anyone else as thinking he is). And despite all that--or is it because of that?--fans drool over him. Barb wrote: >Once he was free, Sirius Black could have sent an owl to Remus Lupin explaining what really > happened with the Fidelius Charm and inform him that Peter Pettigrew > is alive and well and being kept as a pet rat by Ron Weasley, who was > at Hogwarts. Ooh, interesting challenge. Howzabout this?: (a) Sirius is just too scared (probably paranoid) and pretty unbalanced right now. He doesn't trust anyone--he just can't see any alternative to acting on his own, even though it isn't the most practical way to go about it. (b) Such a letter would put Lupin, who, as far as Sirius knows, hates him and wouldn't trust him as far as he could throw him, in a very difficult position. He is supposed to seek out a young boy at Hogwarts (as you say, Sirius may not even know that Lupin is teaching there) and ask him if he can see his rat. That requires him to put a heck of a lot of trust in a man who, as far as all the evidence indicates, murdered their best friends. Tabouli wrote: > Who says everyone hates Lockhart? As a character (not as a person, that's > totally different), I think he's great. And you're in good company (not mine, I must admit--though I do love "Harry, Harry, Harry"). My remark was explaining why *Snape* hates Lockhart, and Snape, unlike us, actually has to work, eat, and practically live with the man. :shudder: The "everyone" referred to the staff. Whoever posts on PDWDWTSAFAB next, if anyone, please make a correction: I was the one who listed the Pensieve. For all I know Haggridd, whose name keeps getting printed next to this one, thinks the Pensieve is the greatest idea since perforated toilet paper and wants to see it in every book. Amy Z 11 weeks 'til the movie ----------------------------------------------- Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always been about being dead, but none of the other ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ----------------------------------------------- From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Aug 31 18:21:41 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:21:41 -0000 Subject: Book Seven Belongs to Me (filk) Message-ID: <9mokjl+8j3v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25287 Book Seven Belongs to Me Dedicated to Cindy (cynthiaanncoe) Author's Note: This filk was inspired by the recent "Hitler Youth" thread. If you remember Cabaret (either the musical or film), you'll realize the aptness of the original song for my purpose. I've worked in some "Fantastic Beasts" trivia, so some lines may seem a bit obscure until you've looked it up. (To the tune of Tomorrow Belongs to Me, from Cabaret) The Scene: The Malfoy Estate. Enter DRACO DRACO The breath of the Nundu is bracing and sweet The troll in the forest runs free. So gather together the New Elite Book Seven belongs to me. The toads are now nesting on their chicken eggs The Streelers now streak toward the sea The Doxies are stretching their extra legs Book Seven belongs to me. The Moke has arrived, but I can't see him now The Tebos chase the Occamy And soon every Mudblood will have a cow Book Seven belongs to...... VOLDEMORT (softly) me..... - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 18:22:06 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:22:06 -0000 Subject: S l o w Villains, CoS version (was PDWDWTSAFAB) In-Reply-To: <9mojqk+agic@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mokke+630h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25288 Barb wrote: > > In CoS, it took Ginny writing in the diary for months before Tom > > Riddle's memory became strong enough to emerge from the book. Her > > writing in it produced a cumulative effect. Pippin wrote: > Once again, Ginny recovers the diary on May 7. She's completely in > Riddle's power, because there's another attack on May 8. But Riddle > doesn't bring her to the Chamber until May 29. > (Dates from the Harry Potter Lexicon, except May 7, mine) Ginny has been in Riddle's power for a long time if you go by the attacks. If that plus the diary's being in her possession were all he needed, he could have brought her on May 8. But he also needs to convince her to come to the Chamber despite her struggles, and he wants to kill Harry, and for that those things he needs his full strength. We have no way of judging how long he needs to keep her writing before he can extract that much power from her. Amy Z -------------------------------------------------------- "I'm =not= going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban -------------------------------------------------------- From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 18:34:41 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:34:41 -0000 Subject: Interesting tidbit about future book titles In-Reply-To: <20010831174202.19106.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9molc1+7cs8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25289 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Maria wrote: > Rowling said in an interview that her favorite place in > Hogwarts was certain room Dumbledore found... i think she > meant the one he found on the way to the bathroom... i > think we could expect to see that room again... > LOL! I think a better name for this one would be "Harry Potter and the Disappearing Loo." (I think Dumbledore was just tweaking someone by saying this--like telling Harry he saw himself holding nice warm socks when he looked in the Mirror of Erised. I also think JKR was tweaking the interviewer--after all, she is where Dumbledore gets HIS sense of humor.) --Barb From redmond_lisa at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 18:40:26 2001 From: redmond_lisa at yahoo.com (lisa palmer) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mad, am I!(was Re: PDWDWTSAFAB) In-Reply-To: <20010831135436.27048.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <20010831184026.51967.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25290 Vicky DeGroote wrote: > > > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A Bit > > > > > > > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > > > > > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > > > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > > > > The Time Turner (Cindy) > > > > > Veritaserum (Cindy) > > > > > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > > > > > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > > > > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > > > > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) > > > > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > > > > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > > > > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > > > > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > > > > > Dobby and Winky (Luce) > > > > > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) > > > > > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) > > > > > The Pensieve (Haggrid) > > > Whomping Willow (Cindy) > > Past, present and future selves (Robyn) I'd like to add fights between Hermione, Ron and Harry. Both book three and four had one not talking to the other for a bit. I like them united Also, I loved the "Mad, am I??" It made me laugh out loud, because it was written as "Mad, am I??", said Moody. In my head the Mad-eye Moody sticks out. I thought JKR must have been amused at this while writing, and that is why she threw in such a cheesy/funny stereotype comment. > Hey! I love the Whomping Willow! My own website is *called* The Whomping Willow Treehouse! (but don't go looking for it just yet-haven't worked on it in ages!-been too busy reading 400+ e-mails in my 1st week on the loop) Vicky AKA Prof. Kitty Felini, wand: 7", willow, unicorn hair > > > > > > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm > > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! http://www.shopping.altavista.com _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm and check out our FAQ-based essays at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 19:25:53 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:25:53 -0000 Subject: PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <20010831134159.74263.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9mooc1+515o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25291 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Maria wrote: > > --- foxmoth at q... wrote: > > > --- - In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" > > wrote: > > > > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A > > Bit > > > > > > > > > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on. > > > > > > > > > > > > Animagus (Ali) > > > > > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda) > > > > > > The Time Turner (Cindy) > > > > > > Veritaserum (Cindy) > > > > > > Marauder's Map (Ali again) > > > > > > Draco is Evil (Jenny) > > > > > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny) > > > > > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid) > > > > > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly) > > > > > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM) > > > > > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM) > > > > > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM) > > > > > > Dobby and Winky (Luce) > > > > > > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam) > > > > > > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan) > > > > > > The Pensieve (???) > > > > Whomping Willow (Cindy) > > > >>>>>>past, present, future selves (Herald Talia) > > > > and I'll add, > > The villains have everything they need to make their > > attack, but > > inexplicably wait till the end of term. PS/SS and CoS are > > the worst > > offenders, but GoF comes close. > > > > Pippin > >>>>>>>> howlers (maryblue) > > ===== > Maryblue I don't know how it got there, but for the record, the Pensieve is not my undesired plot device, just Moaning Myrtle. Haggridd > http://im.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 31 19:41:56 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:41:56 -0000 Subject: Plot Devices that deserve an encore In-Reply-To: <9mo4gc+g8v3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mopa4+lsu7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25292 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote: > We've discussed plot devices that we think should be retired. Is > there any interest in a list of plot devices that we'd like to see > again? > >revolving DADA professors -- Laura I'll add to the list scenes involving Professor Trelawney. Every one of them is a total hoot for me. Add in the constantly escalating predictions of Ron and Harry's deaths, the mystery of wondering which predictions will come true, the tension with McGonnagle and the fact that Harry gets sleepy and stupid in Trelawney's classroom, and you've got a plot device that worked really well in the last two books. Cindy ---------------- "Professor Trelawney was peering down at Harry with the tragic expression she always wore whenever she saw him." GoF From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 31 19:48:15 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:48:15 -0000 Subject: Kids' books - OoP timing - Draco - PoA - Lockhart - PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <9mojto+q9h0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9moplv+najh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25293 > Amy Z wrote:Lisa wrote: > > > I don't think this can be true, because JKR has said in interviews > that #2 was very, very hard to write because of all the pressure of > #1's success. > > She has also been asked about how long it takes her to write a book > and I think she has said a year is typical. Before PS/SS she also > worked out the whole story arc, a lot of backstory, etc., and all of > that & the writing of #1 took 5 years. > > Sorry no references--I can never hunt up the interview I'm looking > for. > > I hope OoP is just taking a long time because that's how inspiration > goes sometimes (or better yet, because it's going to be as long as > GoF--I am resisting the urge to put Rictusempra on Ali until she > spills all), but I'm sure a serious boyfriend, QTTA/FB, and movie > consulting have a lot to do with it. I would never begrudge her time > with her boyfriend and I applaud her incredible generosity in doing > the Comic Relief books (& I love them), but I hope she scales back the > movie stuff. I personally hereby promise not to nitpick about the > shape of the torches on the dungeon walls if she will just stop > vetting every detail and WRITE! > > Amy Z OK, OK. I take it all back. *deep breath* JKR should take as long as she likes, and I won't vent, rant or otherwise lose my head about it again. That said, I don't know how you all are handling it so well. I didn't start reading Book 1 until last fall. It took me a while to move onto the others, and I didn't finish the series until this spring. Then I reread the whole series to my daughter (Phew!), we listened to the tapes this summer and now . . . we've hit the wall. No new "fix" until July, unless you count the movie. Aarg! Cindy (not very good at waiting, and would offer to help JKR if she would take my calls) From redmond_lisa at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 19:52:44 2001 From: redmond_lisa at yahoo.com (lisa palmer) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mad-eye; was PDWDWTSAFAB In-Reply-To: <9mooc1+515o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010831195244.59402.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25294

Haggridd wrote:

--- > > > > > > Plot Devices We Don't Want to See Again for A
> > Bit
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Add your own to the bottom, and pass it on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Animagus (Ali)
> > > > > > Polyjuice Potion (Amanda)
> > > > > > The Time Turner (Cindy)
> > > > > > Veritaserum (Cindy)
> > > > > > Marauder's Map (Ali again)
> > > > > > Draco is Evil (Jenny)
> > > > > > Seeming Good Guy is Evil (Jenny)
> > > > > > Moaning Myrtle (Haggrid)
> > > > > > Snape doesn't believe Harry (Kelly)
> > > > > > Part Non-Human teachers (MMM)
> > > > > > Voldemort's Evil Overlord antics in GoF (MMM)
> > > > > > Seeming Evil Guy is Good (MMM)
> > > > > > Dobby and Winky (Luce)
> > > > > > Dumbledore Explains It All (Sam)
> > > > > > Anybody screaming, 'Mad, am I??' (katzefan)
> > > > > > The Pensieve (???)
> > > > Whomping Willow (Cindy)
> > > >>>>>>past, present, future selves (Herald Talia)
> > > >>>>>>>> howlers (maryblue)
>

I liked the "Mad, am I??" bit, I even busted out laughing.It was written as:

"Mad, am I??",said Moody.

I couldn't help but here theMad-eye Moodyin my head. Silly little thing maybe, but I think JKR must have been a bit amused when she wroteit, especially since it is such a cheesy/funny/scooby-doovillain stereotype thing to say. It is little things like this that make the reading enjoyable on many different levels.

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__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 31 20:15:55 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:15:55 -0000 Subject: S l o w Villains, CoS version (was PDWDWTSAFAB) In-Reply-To: <9mokke+630h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mor9r+l8n9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25295 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Barb wrote: > > > > In CoS, it took Ginny writing in the diary for months before Tom > > > Riddle's memory became strong enough to emerge from the book. Her > > > writing in it produced a cumulative effect. > > Pippin wrote: > > > Once again, Ginny recovers the diary on May 7. She's > completely in > > Riddle's power, because there's another attack on May 8. But Riddle > > doesn't bring her to the Chamber until May 29. > > (Dates from the Harry Potter Lexicon, except May 7, mine) > > Ginny has been in Riddle's power for a long time if you go by the > attacks. If that plus the diary's being in her possession were all he > needed, he could have brought her on May 8. But he also needs to > convince her to come to the Chamber despite her struggles, and he > wants to kill Harry, and for that those things he needs his full > strength. We have no way of judging how long he needs to keep her > writing before he can extract that much power from her. > I wasn't clear above. Tom doesn't need to be out of the diary to get Ginny to the chamber or to attack Harry, since he can use the basilisk. Tom's been bringing Ginny to the Chamber ever since Halloween. She opened the Chamber of Secrets then. She opened it again, after she recovered the diary, to attack Hermione, and then she returned the basilisk to its den. To make your explanation work, you would have to assume that Riddle had enough power to make Ginny attack Hermione, but not enough to make her write a farewell message on the walls or stay in the chamber after she returned the basilisk. Possible, but not plausible, IMO. I love the endings of all the books, and the way Rowling jams as many twists and turns into them as she does, but she does have a habit of twisting the long arm of coincidence to make the term and the adventure end at the same time. Pippin From tillrules at aol.com Fri Aug 31 20:21:13 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:21:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily/Snape, racism/Draco/Slytherins/Quirrell Message-ID: <11e.3ffb65e.28c14bb9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25296 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > > The flaw in this argument at least in regards to Draco, is that there's no > indication that Draco has any inclination to change his racist thoughts and > his continuing pattern of trying to hurt others. Now would not be the right time to *outwardly* show an inclination to change his hatred of muggles. I don't think that would go over well with Lucius and the other DE's. We know that the Malfoy family is deep into the dark arts. Who knows what Draco has seen growing up? Could he not be afraid of what might happen now that Voldemort is back? What is Draco suppose to do? I'm just saying that Draco might come to the point when he does want to make a stand for the good. It's still too early to say he will turn out evil. > I think the post before about the two Draco's is particularly >accurate. > Redemption is a powerful draw to a lot of people. So Draco, as >such a jerk, > is an appealing subject for a fantasy of redemption. So people are >willing > to extend him the benefit of the doubt for his actions (it's for >his dad, > etc...) to make him seem redeemable. But in the end, I just don't >see him as > redeemable. As of yet Draco has done nothing that he needs to be redeemed for. As far as we know he isn't a DE and he hasn't killed anyone. He is a student who has only made some ugly comments. I believe one has to take responsibility for their actions so I'm not saying Draco is innocent because his father made him do it (such as the Hagrid scene). I'm saying that Lucius is probably a big influence in Draco's life right now and it will be up to Draco to decide whether he wants to be like dad or wants to live differently. Put yourself in Draco's place. If Draco doesn't want to be associated with the DE's and Voldemort, what should he do? Where can he go? Is there anyone who can help him? There is no way I can see Draco going to Dumbledore but I can see him going to Snape for help. On the other hand Draco might just love being a racist and will join the ranks of Voldemort as soon as possible. However, I still say he has done nothing that pushes him beyond the hope of joining with Dumbledore one of these days. Koinonia Again, this argument stems on the possibility of their being an event strong enough to make him want to change. But we have not been presented with a single redeeming characteristic of this character in four books. While it is true that it would be early to reform the character, it is not too early to at least give some inkling that the potential exists and frankly JKR has not. The character in every scene he has been in has been shown to have no redeeming characteristics. There is no evidence of, for example, the "his father forces him to do it" argument that is so popular by the character's defenders. He does it b/c he likes to cause pain, there is no evidence of any other reason. Again, his action are more than just child's pranks (another popular defense). He held onto a charade for weeks to get Hagrid fired. He engaged in an ongoing series of information exchanges with Rita Skeeter to create trouble for Harry & Hermione. There is simply no evidence of him having any chance of redemption. Yes, in theory, it may be too early to say that he could not be redeemed, but any redemption would have to reverse the events of the last 4 books completely, because as of this time, he is compltely unredeemable. From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 20:21:44 2001 From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:21:44 -0000 Subject: Draco is E.Vil (long stream of consciousness rant) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9morko+m2vs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25297 Susan-- Oh, dear, this had me rolling around on the ground, speechless with hysteria. By the way it was me who said Draco is a badly socialized child. :> And thanks for the hat-tips with the Mai Tais, green umbrellas and (oh God, no more, no more!) leather trousers. *I* have laughed at Draco's lines in canon (the only Amy cited, about how 'if you were any slower, you'd be going backwards') and his reaction to the Blast-Ended Skrewts. "Oh, lovely, who *wouldn't* want a pet that can burn, sting and bite all at once?") But I am as mystified as anyone as to the explosive popularity of fanon Draco. Perhaps it's just the appeal of bad boys (witness Krycek's frequent rehabilitation in X-Files fanfic) or the fact that he may not be described as good-looking, but nonetheless he is blond and expensively dressed. at Amy -- I know the books never say he's attractive, but then they never say either Harry or Ron is attractive either, and *I* think Harry is adorable, while Ron has numerous drooling fans. Extensive rants have been written as to why Draco is, after Harry and Hermione and Ron, probably the most written-about and loved character in the fandom, so I'll shut up. I agree with Amy -- Rowling's done a great deal to make him dislikeable; I can't think of a thing she could do to break the back on his popularity in the future other than making him irredeemably evil or extremely fat. I have, however, now been converted to a Draco/Kneazle shipper. *That'll* bring him over to the Good Guys' Side. Cassie --- In HPforGrownups at y..., shall at s... wrote: > The most interesting thing about Draco, to my mind, is his fascinating double (or multiple) lives. When trapped between the pages of canon he is a horrid little brat with a cowardly disposition, racist views and appalling taste in friends (I agree, incidentally, with whoever said that he is a badly socialised child, but you have to feel sorry for him - am I the only one to have noticed that Crabbe and Goyle haven't uttered a syllable in the entire canon? the poor kid must be desperate just for a decent conversation, for goodness sake. (snip) Once the covers of the books are closed, however, and Draco escapes into fanon the uber-Draco emerges - a tortured, sensitive soul, simply crying out to be redeemed by the love of a good woman. Or man. Or, possibly, Kneazle. So tortured and sensitive is he, however, that any redemption is not going to last beyond the chapter's end (in the less restrained fanfic, Draco may need to be redeemed several times in the same paragraph) leaving it to be done All Over Again ["Here is an administrative announcement. For the last time, will all the mary sues out there *please* take a number and GET IN LINE."]. > > There are, of course, compensations: the rich complexity of the uber-Draco's sex life (frustratingly, nay, often tragically interrupted as it may be), the flawless dress sense, the nifty knack for one liners, the chance to hang out on a regular basis with characters who have a sporting chance of getting the jokes (I mean, if he'd tried the one about the grating and the very heavy hat on C&G in SS/PS they'd probably still be trying to work it out by the time OoP came out in paperback)... > > How do you reconcile the two? My own belief is that the canon Draco is frantically out there, somewhere in that ether in which literary characters float when the books are shut, putting messages into bottles and setting them afloat into the readership's collective stream of consciousness, in the hope that one day one of them will wash up on the beach where JKR is sitting (probably sipping a mai tai with a green umbrella in it if there's any justice in this world) and she might sit up and take notice. > > And what do the messages say? Well, that's anybody's guess. Personally, I incline to one of two possibilities. > > The first is > "You bloody woman. I've been around for four books now, and the highlight of my career so far was being turned into a ferret. For god's sake, wake up and give me something interesting to do. Evil, if necessary. Messy, provided you give me enough notice to wear my second best robes in advance. But at least something better than sneering, flushing, and laughing in an unpleasant way." > > the second is > > "Start writing something which will get these women off me now!. Oh, and if *you* ever dare to mention leather trousers you're dragon fodder,Rowling." > > Susan From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 21:14:47 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:14:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius is not evil (was: re: Draco is (not) evil) In-Reply-To: <9mogu7+6dme@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mouo7+5d7s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25298 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote: > > . There's always one > who doesn't follow the correct criteria! ie - Padfoot turned out to > be evil even though he was in Gryffindor. > > Sirius is *not* evil... he's one of the best characters in the siries!!! Granted he did once try and trick Snape into finding Lupin...but we've discussed that 'till the cows came home!! but he is definately definately not evil...he loves Harry, he was James' best friend, he is still in contact with Dumbledore who doesnt seem to think he's evil either. He never actually hurt anyone (not including The Fat Lady of Gryffindor tower, and bear in mind, she's only a painting!!) I'm sorry only I am a very vocal member of the Sirius fanclub!!! -mary ;p From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 21:19:31 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:19:31 -0000 Subject: Draco..wasLily/Snape In-Reply-To: <11e.3ffb65e.28c14bb9@aol.com> Message-ID: <9mov13+ki4n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25299 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > There is simply no evidence of him having any chance of >redemption. Yes, in theory, it may be too early to say that he >could not be redeemed, but any redemption would have to reverse the >events of the last 4 books completely, because as of this time, he >is compltely unredeemable. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. To say there is no chance for a 14 year old boy.....well, I just can't agree. Hey, I bet Dumbledore hasn't given up on him ! It's not that I'm this huge fan of Draco. I do like the scenes with him. I think many of them are funny. I'm just not willing to write him off. Tillrules also wrote: >He is excited to see Voldemort return. Again, what if he isn't? He can't go around saying that. >Even the death of an innocent (Cedric) is not enough to lessen this >happiness on his part. I wonder if Draco was really happy to see Cedric die. Draco might be just as sad and afraid as every other kid at Hogwarts. He just can't show it. >It would take some extreme & radical character changes to make his >helping Harry possible and even more extreme circumstances to make >it plausible. Sometimes it takes an extreme event to change a persons life. We still have 3 books to go! On a side note, I asked my teenage daugther today what she thought about Draco. Her reply? *Well, I like Lupin. When I pressed her further she said: *Draco is a poot* Then she said that she thought Draco would end up fighting his father. See, even a youngster thinks Draco has a chance. Of course, this is the same person who likes the Lockhart character ^o^ Koinonia From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 21:24:30 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:24:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25300 --- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote: They do cover the Homorphous Charm, which turns a werewolf back into a person, -Kelly the Yarn Junky Wrote: If this is real, why doesn't Dumbledore cure Lupin? **Maybe the charm can only return the werewolf back to human form during the full moon, but doesn't get rid of the werewolf-like thoughts. Or maybe it only works for a limited time and you'd never know when it would stop working. Or maybe it is just *incredibly* painful and to do it over and over again would be simply too much for Lupin. It would probably just be easier to send him to the shrieking shack once a month and let the transformation run its course, with the help of the wolfsbane potion to keep the werewolf from being dangerous. Wouldnt want to scare the kiddies by letting a werewolf (sane or not) run around during the full moon. --- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote: 2. Did Dumbledore *really* agree to the 4th years being taught about the Unforgivable Curses? I kind of figured that Crouch worked it out with Dumbledore so that he could teach them about it because he wanted to *DO* them again without getting into trouble for it. One "Prior Incantato" on his wand and they could see he'd been 'practising'. But if he'd had permission to demonstrate on the spiders, and teach the kids to fight the Imperius curse, he could get his kicks out of it and not be punished. 3. I know we've discussed this before, but there are some newcomers, so...why would Crouch-as-Moody teach them how to fight Imperious? **I think he wanted to see how the kids could hold up under it. Especially Harry. If he knew any kids were especially good at throwing it off he could inform The Big V to recruit them. Obviously a child who can throw off an Unforgivable curse is very powerful, and would be either a threat or an asset to Voldy. Also, like I said for #2, he probably enjoyed cursing things, and this would be good practice for when Voldemort was back in power and he had free reign. Katie** ******************************************************************* 'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' And he fainted. ******************************************************************* _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 21:39:26 2001 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:39:26 -0000 Subject: another cheesy line!! Message-ID: <9mp06e+nbsl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25301 When I was reading GoF, the padfoot returns chapter, I found myself totally cringing at one of the lines; "And dont forget, when your talking about me among yourselves, call me Snuffles, OK? I dont know about you but this line completely crash landed me out of the mystical, magical world of Harry Potter and I just found myself laughing, it was such a serious conversation with Sirius before hand and then to suddenly come out with that was so funny!!! I mean Snuffles, LOL!! I think its worse than the "Mad, Am I?" line but then again I didnt even notice that until I read about it here! Well, each to their own I suppose. -Mary From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 21:47:09 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:47:09 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25302 Oh, dear... It looks as if I copied Amanda Lewanski's post...*cringe* Almost word for word as a matter of fact.... But I DIDN'T! I SWEAR! Sorry guys, nobody wants to read the same thing twice, but my e-mail is being EXTREMELY temperamental today and Amandas post wasnt behaving itself and wouldnt open for me! Katie** (Whos NOT a copycat, just technologically challenged.) >From: "princesskatie115 -" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] DADA >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:24:30 +0000 > > >--- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote: > >They do cover the Homorphous Charm, which turns a werewolf back into a >person, > >-Kelly the Yarn Junky Wrote: > >If this is real, why doesn't Dumbledore cure Lupin? > >**Maybe the charm can only return the werewolf back to human form during >the >full moon, but doesn't get rid of the werewolf-like thoughts. Or maybe it >only works for a limited time and you'd never know when it would stop >working. Or maybe it is just *incredibly* painful and to do it over and >over >again would be simply too much for Lupin. It would probably just be easier >to send him to the shrieking shack once a month and let the transformation >run its course, with the help of the wolfsbane potion to keep the werewolf >from being dangerous. Wouldnt want to scare the kiddies by letting a >werewolf (sane or not) run around during the full moon. > >--- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote: > >2. Did Dumbledore *really* agree to the 4th years being taught about the >Unforgivable Curses? > >I kind of figured that Crouch worked it out with Dumbledore so that he >could >teach them about it because he wanted to *DO* them again without getting >into trouble for it. One "Prior Incantato" on his wand and they could see >he'd been 'practising'. But if he'd had permission to demonstrate on the >spiders, and teach the kids to fight the Imperius curse, he could get his >kicks out of it and not be punished. > >3. I know we've discussed this before, but there are some newcomers, >so...why would Crouch-as-Moody teach them how to fight Imperious? > >**I think he wanted to see how the kids could hold up under it. Especially >Harry. If he knew any kids were especially good at throwing it off he could >inform The Big V to recruit them. Obviously a child who can throw off an >Unforgivable curse is very powerful, and would be either a threat or an >asset to Voldy. Also, like I said for #2, he probably enjoyed cursing >things, and this would be good practice for when Voldemort was back in >power >and he had free reign. > >Katie** > >******************************************************************* >'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' >And he fainted. >******************************************************************* > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > >_______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________ > >Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm > >You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm >and check out our FAQ-based essays at: >http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > >For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator >Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > >Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 21:49:10 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:49:10 -0400 Subject: Draco's crime Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25303 I think Draco's worst crime wasn't trying to get Hagrid fired or gloating over Cedric. The thing I think was worst was trying to get Buckbeak killed. This isn't Amy the touchy-feely, kittycat-loving, animal-rightsist bleeding-heart speaking--as bad as killing a puppy or kitten, or someone's pet, is, I think killing Buckbeak is far worse in the eyes of the wizarding world. Before I explain, I just want to say that I don't think that this means Draco is or isn't evil or unredeemable. For the record, I think he is a really evil person, not just a slimy little twerp, and I also hold out hope that he'll make a substantial turn to the good before the end of Book 7. In the eyes of the wizarding world, Buckbeak has a status above that of an ordinary animal. (1) He is sentient; one might not be able to explain to him that he has to go into hiding, but he understands when he's being insulted (very gratifying moment, that) and he understands a bow. (2) When one kills a violent animal, one refers to it as "destroying" or "putting down" or perhaps "euthanizing" the animal. Buckbeak's imminent death is referred to as an execution--not just by Hermione (14) and Lupin (17) but Fudge (16)--a term usually reserved for humans. (3) There is a hearing and an appeal, again more on a human model of justice than along the lines of what is typically done for a biting dog. (4) The Minister of Magic and a member of the Committee come up to witness the execution and are both quite grim about it--again, well beyond what one would expect if a hippogriff were merely an ordinary animal or pet. Trying to get Buckbeak killed--framing him, in fact--isn't as bad as trying to get a human killed, but it is definitely treated as something in between killing an animal and killing a person. It appears to be a very serious offense. Amy Z ------------------------------------------ Grenouille: I cannot go with you to the market today, Crapaud. Crapaud: But Grenouille, I cannot carry the cow alone. -Quidditch Through the Ages ------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Aug 31 22:01:02 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:01:02 -0000 Subject: another cheesy line!!/Snuffles In-Reply-To: <9mp06e+nbsl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9mp1eu+m8dc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25304 --- Mary wrote: > When I was reading GoF, the padfoot returns chapter, I found myself > totally cringing at one of the lines; > "And dont forget, when your talking about me among yourselves, call > me Snuffles, OK? > Mary, I had a different "cringe" line in Padfoot Returns: If Crouch has ever taken a day off work because of illness before this, "I'll eat Buckbeak." Struck me as a strange thing for a grown man to say. I sure did like that chapter, though. "Call me Snuffles" didn't make me cringe too much. By the way, was the point of the "Snuffles" thing to make the reader sweat? In the "The Dream" (which follows Padfoot Returns), H/H/R have a conversation in which they refer to Sirius as "Sirius" three times. I was sure something bad would result from this slip, but nothing ever did. Cindy From tillrules at aol.com Fri Aug 31 22:05:21 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:05:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco..wasLily/Snape Message-ID: <7b.1a593a75.28c16421@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25305 In a message dated 8/31/2001 2:22:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Koinonia2 at hotmail.com writes: << Tillrules also wrote: >He is excited to see Voldemort return. Again, what if he isn't? He can't go around saying that. Why not? Again, there is no evidence of this theory of Draco only says this b/c his dad makes him. It would be very easy for him to simply stay silent (which as I think someone said before the most likely response from Lucius in hostile territory), but he goe sout of his way to confront Harry and say that he told him he chose the wrong side, the first day they met. Had he not wished to trumpet his happiness about the return of Voldemort, he simply could have sat sullenly in a corner. >Even the death of an innocent (Cedric) is not enough to lessen this >happiness on his part. I wonder if Draco was really happy to see Cedric die. Draco might be just as sad and afraid as every other kid at Hogwarts. He just can't show it. Again, there's no factual evidence to this and a lot of evidence that he's happy about what happened. As I said above, he simply could have had no reaction in the final scenes. He could have raised his glass to Cedric's name and explained it away as simply trying to "hide his true feelings" if any of his peers questioned him. But he chose to make a statement and not raise his glass. Also, note it is not the whole Slythierin table that doesn't raise their glasswes (I think this is the case, I don't have the book in front of me), but JKR specifcally notes that Draco an dhis little group of Slytherins don't. Again, as leader of the group, he performs and action that the others in his group, but not the entire house follows. >It would take some extreme & radical character changes to make his >helping Harry possible and even more extreme circumstances to make >it plausible. Sometimes it takes an extreme event to change a persons life. We still have 3 books to go! >> True enough, but i cannot come up with a circumstance that would be sufficient. Killing his family members, for example, may be enough, but I'm not sure that's even enough to make him sympathetic enough to be likable. His decisin then would be revenge motivagted, not any change of heart. Harry savuign him wouldmost likely lead to resentment, not change (given all of the info we have so far) ala Snape. A large body of fanfic aside, I cannot see a plausible situation where he falls for someone romantically and reforms. But that' s just me. From tillrules at aol.com Fri Aug 31 22:10:09 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:10:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco is E.Vil (long stream of consciousness rant) Message-ID: <131.f04bd6.28c16541@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25306 In a message dated 8/31/2001 1:25:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com writes: << But I am as mystified as anyone as to the explosive popularity of fanon Draco. Perhaps it's just the appeal of bad boys (witness Krycek's frequent rehabilitation in X-Files fanfic) or the fact that he may not be described as good-looking, but nonetheless he is blond and expensively dressed. at Amy -- I know the books never say he's attractive, but then they never say either Harry or Ron is attractive either, and *I* think Harry is adorable, while Ron has numerous drooling fans. Extensive rants have been written as to why Draco is, after Harry and Hermione and Ron, probably the most written-about and loved character in the fandom, so I'll shut up. I agree with Amy -- Rowling's done a great deal to make him dislikeable; I can't think of a thing she could do to break the back on his popularity in the future other than making him irredeemably evil or extremely fat. >> I think this is a large part of the appeal. Not only is he a "bad boy," but he's portrayed as handsome, wealthy & witty. There is always the appeal for women to want to reform the bad boy and make him good. Believing, like someone said before (despite the lack of evidence to this) "he's good on the inside." I think he will do that one evil thing (I think he already ahs, but many apparently do not) and this will maybe finally make people understand. Or he may end up redeemed (I doubt it, but JKR may try), that's why the books are fun. From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 22:50:57 2001 From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:50:57 +0000 Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 25307 Just wondering what quotes or scenes in the HP series really popped out at you (whether clever, funny, touching, etc.) and have become your favourites! I haven't re-read the books in a pretty long while (by my standards), but the scene that is pushing and shoving itself to the forefront of my memory is: (From Back to the Burrow in GoF where Gred and Forge plant the ton-tongue toffee for Dudley on the way out makes me laugh every time I read it) Aunt Petunia hurled herself onto the ground beside Dudley, seized the end of his swollen tongue and attempted to wrench it out of his moth; unsurprisingly, Dudley yelled and spluttered worse than ever, trying to fight her off. Uncle Vernon was bellowing and waving his arms around, and Mr. Weasley had to shout to make himself heard. Please share your favourites! I would absolutely L-O-V-E to hear them!! Katie** ******************************************************************* 'Aha,' he said vaguely, 'we've won.' And he fainted. ******************************************************************* _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 22:58:59 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:58:59 -0000 Subject: Snuffles - Draco again Message-ID: <9mp4rj+4udp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 25308 Mary wrote: > "And dont forget, when your talking about me among yourselves, call > me Snuffles, OK? > I dont know about you but this line completely crash landed me out of > the mystical, magical world of Harry Potter and I just found myself > laughing, it was such a serious conversation with Sirius before hand > and then to suddenly come out with that was so funny!!! I really like this because we have barely seen Sirius's sense of humor, which we know was very highly developed (or lowly developed, depending on your view of class clowns) before Azkaban drained it out of him. This choice of nickname shows that he has a sense of humor even about very serious things, and its comeback is part of his rehabilitation. I hope we'll be treated to some zingers by Sirius in future books. Cindy, I had the same reaction to chapter 29. Interesting transatlantic note: in the UK edition of chapter 29, Harry refers to him as Snuffles; in the US edition he calls him Sirius, in contrast to Hermione, who remembers to call him Snuffles. They're talking in the Great Hall, right after reading Sirius's letter, so it's important to be discreet. It struck me as a very odd change. Cassie wrote: > *I* have laughed at Draco's lines in canon (the only Amy cited, about > how 'if you were any slower, you'd be going backwards') and his > reaction to the Blast-Ended Skrewts. "Oh, lovely, who *wouldn't* want > a pet that can burn, sting and bite all at once?") You're right, that one made me laugh too! Okay, *two* points for Draco. But he's a heck of a lot wittier in fanon. The mai tais must loosen him up. ;-) Amy Z ------------------------- "Draco is a poot." -Koinonia's daughter -------------------------