[HPforGrownups] Re: Refreshing innocence

[Herald Talia]

No: HPFGUIDX 25282

I'd like to discuss your e-mail point by point, because I've been
enjoying this thread, too. 

Rrishri wrote
On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:39:30 -0000 frantyck at yahoo.com writes:
> The recent refreshing innocence thread was fascinating, and 
> frustrating.
> 
> I attended a co-ed, non-religious boarding school for nine years, 
> and 
> I don't honestly remember much "refreshing innocence" of the sort 
> some members of this list approved of. This is not to say that from 
> the age of nine we lived in a sexually-charged world; on the 
> contrary, we thought holding hands with a girl was an outrageous 
> heart-thumping adventure well into high school. Very little 
> exaggeration here.

Exactly - and JKR does that perfectly - and while it's hard to define
normality (if I could, I'd have a great dissertation topic!) that's the
normal stage of childhood. At 9,holding hands with a girl should be an
outrageous heart thumping adventure. When I hear about Jerry Springer
topics - I was an eleven year old hooker! etc. etc. ad infinitum, I
wonder what's next - I recieved "massage" clients while in utero? So what
I like about Rowling is she lets her kids BE kids. They're at exactly the
stage they should be at. You've got to run before you can walk. But like
I said in a previous post, they're not Lolitas. They're - and this is a
dirty word in some places - normal. 

> What I mean is that children are aware from pretty early that boys 
> and girls "go" together somehow. Part of being cool and popular is 
> attracting the attention of others, especially those of the opposite 
> 
> sex. The HP characters, schoolkids though they may be, have a lively 
> 
> awareness of the opposite sex, which some of you have pointed out. 
> I'd say it begins to show in CoS (Percy's kissing, at least). By 
> PoA, 
> there is a physical element to the awareness, obviously (Ron's 
> Uranus 
> line), some of the schoolboy toilet humour that accompanies all 
> those 
> physical changes, curiosity about each other's bodies and about 
> girls... it's very earthy, and very normal. IMO, if Ron is saying 
> that to a female classmate, and elicits no more than a sour look in 
> return, there's a healthy degree of sexual tension present already.
 
Great ! and until they are older, lets keep it on that level - a
realistic level of sexual awareness. That's healthy, fine and normal.
Also, a more "innocent" kid will have those innuendoes fly right over his
head, which is also good. If you don't get it, you will - and that's fine
too. I teach the Harry Potter books to a discussion group for gifted 9
year olds. Some kids sniggered, some didn't get it. I didn't elaborate.
It's fine that way. Let's just NOT have group sex scenes - and I don't
think Jo is going there. Like I said, I think she's keeping it "normal"
(Like Justice Stevens - in another context - What's normal? I know it
when I see it. My own hermeneutic circle notwithstanding)

> Children talk about each other all the time, saying nice and 
> not-nice 
> things. On occasion, children can be breathtakingly rude, cruel 
> even, 
> to each other. No news there. They are accomplished and 
> inquisitorial 
> judges. There is little defence against rumour, after all.
> 
> Of course, none of this need show up in the text, beyond the extent 
> to which it impinges on the story. It's pretty clear that Rowling is 
> 
> very economical in what she chooses to include; her books are, by 
> and 
> large, plot-driven. If, as seems to have been a late consensus on 
> the "children's books or adults' books" thread, the HP books are 
> indeed a story of growing up for growing children (or for the 
> children in us adults -- a queasy formulation, but one which IMO is 
> not bad), then surely the reader should be able to fill in the 
> subtext of school life, good and bad.
> 
> Children are not merely small adults. They are only learning about 
> the weight of consequence and the shortage of second chances. The 
> issues of rape and all those other horrible things that some of you 
> thought represent the experience of the real world... certainly 
> children are aware of them. But -- in the small world of an isolated 
> 
> boarding school (believe me when i say it is a small world), such 
> terrors do not often intrude. The Hogwarts world and even the 
> wizarding world is too small for such crimes that depend on 
> anonymity.

I think we are basically agreeing :-) I think it's kind of sad nowadays
that we have to talk about refresing innocence, when what we really mean
is unskewed, normal childhood. No, I'm not saying Harry is normal -
magical orphan, horrible Dursleys etc. but that he reacts to his
childhood in normal, healthy ways.  I'd just like to see more of that.
Let's keep Britney out of the Potterverse. Or at least, confine her and
her ilk to fanfics. 
	So,what I find refreshing about the Potterverse is the healthy, unskewed
attitude toward sexuality. It's developmentally appropriate for their
stages. These kids aren't being forced into sexual maturity - they're
slowly maturing, and that's good. This is just IMHO, but I feel vaguely
uncomfotable when I see my neighbor's 9 year old in leather print minis
and halters (there's nothin' to fill them with, for one thing!) But it
seems vaguely exploitative. Let her "get there" on her own - she should
be busy now trying to climb trees, kick soccer balls, and yes, play a
(somewhat sexually symbolic) game of "you can't catch me" with the
neighborhood boys.  (and ya can't do that in pleather!)
	This is something I feel strongly about (no kidding!) and it's a thread
I'd like to continue. If people want to do it OT, that's fine with me
too. Any other parents out there agree? or disagree?

Robyn , who's not sure if she qualifies as a prude or not.