Veritaserum, the worth of the wizard world, VWII, mortal peril

[lenmachine]

No: HPFGUIDX 30985

joeblackish wrote:

> Actually, that is not why [lie detectors and sodium pentathol] are 
not used to procure evidence.  
> Both lie detectors and sodium pentathol are inadmissable in court 
> because of their relatively low accuracy rates.  It has nothing to 
do 
> with the court system or police being concerned with a citizen's 
> autonomy.  Lie detectors are terribly unreliable, and thus to use 
one 
> would at the same time provide no definite new information and also 
> offer a false sense of security.

But I'm not talking about using *evidence* in court. I'm talking 
about the use of the polygraph itself. Neither the police nor the 
prosecutor can hold you down and strap you to the machine (or inject 
you with a so-called "truth serum," though they don't that anymore). 
Constitutional provisions like the 5th Amendment against self-
incrimination protect you from participating in a polygraph test 
against your will. Yes, you can consent to them -- but the state has 
to have your consent before they perform the test. In this respect, 
the American citizen's civil and individual liberties are in fact 
acknowledged and preserved.

joeblackish also wrote:
 
> If we had infallible truth detectors, I believe that we most 
> definitely would being using them in our courts.  The wizarding 
world 
> does have this in the form of Veritaserum.  

Personally, I highly doubt that will ever happen -- either the 
development of the "perfect" lie detector or its accepted use in law 
enforcement *without obtaining the defendant's consent*. (At least 
not without the ACLU filing a few lawsuits. :-) )

This is true even in cases where the defendant gives the God's honest 
truth. Confessions cannot be admitted where the confession has been 
obtained unlawfully and without the defendant's informed consent. 
Miranda may be hokey, but it does have a basis in the Constitution.

Courts don't like to throw out cases in which "defective" confessions 
are involved. But a good judge knows that he has to preserve the 
defendant's constitutional rights over "practical" considerations.

joeblackish also said:

> Also, I really don't see 
> the Ministry respecting their citizens in the way you are 
suggesting.  
> If they are willing to authorize use of unforgivable curses on 
> suspected Death Eaters, send people to Azkaban for life with no 
trial, 
> hold trials for certain people only as a show, etc, it seems to me 
> completely in character for them to use Veritaserum to get the 
truth 
> out of suspected Death Eaters in t

And Elizabeth also wrote:

> And second, I don't think the McCarthy-ish Barty Crouch, Sr., 
> would have let these kinds of considerations slow him down. 
American and 
> British police presumably don't torture to elicit confessions, 
either. 
> Crouch authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against Death 
Eaters.

I think this is indeed a valid point. I doubt, however, that this is 
the normal course of wizarding life. In fact, it seems that when one 
transgresses some regulation, the Ministry sends you that owl within 
minutes (e.g. Harry's letter from the MOM when Dobby dropped the 
pudding in CoS).

It would seem to me that finding and apprehending DEs, however, is 
another matter, since they probably escape detection through means of 
the Dark Arts. My feeling was that the Crouch trials were quite 
different from a normal wizarding legal proceeding. Quite possibly 
Crouch was acting individually, with little regulation by the MOM 
(much as McCarthy did, I'm guessing). Quite possibly he still felt 
the need for the appearance of order; hence the sham trials. (My 
fingers are itching to type out an analogy to W's executive order for 
the use of military tribunals, but we're supposed to avoid politics 
in this forum. :-) ) Quite possibly Dumbledore acted as a one-man 
ACLU to prevent the sloppy use of Veritaserum without probable cause 
for its use. :-)

I don't know ... We've yet to *really* find out about what it was 
like for wizards during those dark days. But, as we Americans know, 
during times we have lived under the apparent spectre of fear (e.g. 
the "Reds"), we have stood by and watched our individual liberties 
being taken away, without protest. Because of this, I don't feel that 
it's right to say that the Crouch trials are examples of what all MOM 
procedures are like.

Elizabeth also wrote:

> I certainly hope so. And I agree with you (and others) about the 
wizard 
> world not being any worse than the other Muggle civilizations we 
know of, 
> and just as worth saving, even though it may not have sounded that 
way in 
> my earlier post. I would just like to see it get improved in the 
process-- 
> as I have the silly idea has happened a time or two in our own 
history.

The theme of "redemption" certainly appears time and time again in 
the canon. :-)


Sincerely,

Emily A. Chen (I should probably add "Esq." at this point :-) )