All things Snape plus Harry

[koinonia02]

No: HPFGUIDX 31072

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:

>Some of this may
> duplicate the Snape VFAQ, and none of it is "official," but I 
>merely hope to
> give everyone some things to think about.

Maybe one day the new book will be out and we can think of new things 
to talk about.  Until then I guess we will just have to keep 
repeating ourselves.  Great thoughts.  Now on to the great Potions 
Master:

>  
> 1. Snape as DE/Snape as spy

Let me start off by saying I'm still on the fence as far as this is 
concerned.  

>To
> summarize, this question ties in to Snape's past and the all-
>important Task
> that Dumbledore sends him to do in "The Parting of the Ways." Is it 
to
> resume his role as a double agent? But how can that be?
> Here's my opinion on the matter--it's evolved a bit since I last 
made noise
> on this topic. I believe that when Snape originally joined the 
Death Eaters,
> he was sincere.


I do believe that Snape could go back to being a spy. That was the 
very first thing I thought of at the end of GoF. Dumbledore was 
apprehensive and I believe it was because Snape was going somewhere 
that put him in danger.

As far as Snape being sincere when he joined the DE's, he probably 
was.  Maybe he just didn't realize exactly what he was joining. Not 
really sure what to think about this.
  
 
>He believed in their cause and went and did horrible things
> along with the worst of them. 

I know many people agree with you here.  I just have a bit of a 
problem believing that Snape actually committed murder or tortured 
anyone.  Regardless of why he left the DE's, surely Dumbledore would 
never hire a past murderer to teach young kids. I guess I'm hoping 
that Snape was truly unaware of what he was joining.

  
>Or maybe there's some unrequited or rejected love issues (hmph).


Let's hope not.  I'm don't care for the unrequited or rejected love 
stories.  

  
> As far as the PS business with Quirrell, Voldemort must have had 
reasons for
> not revealing himself to Severus at that time.


Perhaps because Voldemort is not exactly sure whether Snape is still 
loyal to him for reasons we just don't know yet. 
  
  
> I believe that Voldemort didn't want to reveal himself to any loyal 
>servants
> until he was more substantial than a disembodied spirit taking up 
>residence
> as an extra face on the back of some random dude's head.

I think if Voldemort felt he could truly trust Snape, he would have 
revealed himself regardless of his appearance.  What better person to 
turn to than a former DE with great knowledge in the dark arts and 
potions? 

  
>I believe that had Quirrell succeeded and got the stone for 
>Voldemort,
> he would have been quick enough to stake his claim on Snape's 
>loyalty.

I think he didn't stake a claim on Snape's loyalty because he isn't 
sure where Snape stands. I guess I belong to the camp that believes 
Snape is the one who has left forever.

"One, who I believe has left me forever..."
It's almost as if Voldemort isn't sure about this DE.     
  
> Why is it so important that Snape be able to worm his way back into
> Voldemort's good graces? Because tactically, at the end of GoF, 
there is no
> other course of action I can conceive that does him or Dumbledore 
any more
> good than going back to be a spy again.

I don't have a problem with Snape going back as a spy.  However, I 
imagine that there are ways that Snape could help Dumbledore that JKR 
could come up with.  She seems to be pretty good at bringing up new 
and exciting ideas.


>If he does NOT, he openly declares
> that his loyalty has shifted and all kinds of bad things happen. 
>First of
> all, he becomes a marked man. Secondly, the Slytherin students 
whose parents
> are involved will no longer trust him, so he certainly ceases to be 
a
> sounding board for them. Third, Dumbledore is once again left 
without a
> source of information from Voldemort's camp.

I would love to be able to see Snape in Voldemort's camp and his 
interaction with other DE's.  But there are other spies besides 
Snape.  


>Fourth, he can't use Severus
> any other way because the DE's will be looking for him, so he'd 
>become a
> virtual prisoner at Hogwarts.

I can see your point.
 
>In both cases, the DE's in question can expect to be
> punished,

I'm sure Snape is very much aware of that ;-) If Snape did go back as 
a spy I would love to be able to see his first meeting with Voldemort.

  
> Other theories about the task abound. Polyjuice potion

I don't like that theory at all.  


> contacting some
> other group such as vampires or Dementors, even setting up 
safehouses are
> possibilities for his task. But does any one of those do anything to
> singularly and unequivocally both secure Snape's life for the time 
being AND
> give Dumbledore a tactical leg up in the battle?

Maybe these things would help Dumbledore.  After all Hagrid is sent 
to the giants.  Could the vampires not be of some assistance to the 
good side?  I'm sure Voldemort won't hesitate to go after every 
creature he can think of.  

GoF "I shall have all my devoted servants returned to me, and an army 
of creatures whom all fear..."

  
> Leaving aside that I agree the Ministry will pin the murder of 
>Cedric on
> Crouch Jr., thus making it impractical for Snape to impersonate 
>him, what
> good would using Polyjuice do?

Still don't like the Polyjuice.

>Not to mention
> we've discussed on this list how it seems clear that whatever he 
goes to do,
> he and Dumbledore have had this contingency plan in place for a 
long time.
> Impersonating Crouch because he's available seems like a snap 
decision, and
> this task does not feel like a quick decision of any sort.

Well said. IF Snape is going to be impersonating anyone I don't see 
how it culd be Crouch Jr.

  
> Say he goes to contact the Dementors or the vampires. 
>And vampires?
> We hardly know anything about them in JKR's world. But even if 
there is a
> way for one of these groups to help him in the short run, how does 
that help
> in the long? He still can't have them hanging about in class. He'll 
still be
> "outed" with the DE's. And while the alliance may be helpful, how 
much of an
> edge does that really give Dumbledore? And could that type of 
negotiation
> really have taken less than a week?

We don't know much of anything about the vampires.  But that doesn't 
mean they will not play an important part.  Snape could still have 
gone back to Voldemort and be a part of the vampire world.  Or 
perhaps Snape turned his back on the vampire world and now has to go 
back and make amends.  I still believe he is one :-) Plus, who is to 
say the Snape hasn't been negotiating with his fellow creatures for 
quite some time?
  
> I remain utterly convinced that reestablishing his "loyalty" to 
>Voldemort is
> Snape's only reasonable alternative as a Task.

I'm just waiting to see what it is.  Still sitting on the fence. 
  
  
> 2. Marital Status and/or Lovelife
>  
> I hate this theory. I just thought I'd be up front about that. 
>Nonetheless,
> I'll try to be objective.

I don't have any problems with Snape being in love or in love at one 
time.  What I have a problem with is "who did Snape love?"

  
> Many listies have speculated as to what exactly made Snape so 
>bitter and
> hateful. As Amanda's husband puts it, "Snape has a Past with a 
>capital P."
> (Thanks, Jan!) So what about that Past made him this way?

The 'Past' is probably a combination of things.  I think the 
statement about Snape knowing so much of the dark arts at a young age 
is a clue.  Then that DE past is not a shining part of his life 
either.
  
> Naturally, say many, it must have been some kind of love lost. 
>Either he
> loved someone who didn't love him back (or he was happy in love and 
>had it taken away (The Wife Who Died). 
> Personally, I think his past troubles relate to some abuse in his
> upbringing, his move to the DE's an attempt to escape to 
>something "better,"
> and his rude awakening afterward to be a slow realisation that they 
>weren't
> all they were cracked up to be, but let's explore this other theory 
>for a
> moment.

Maybe a combination of a love who died or who is still alive and his 
upbringing/DE life.

  
> Okay, we hear from admittedly biased sources (the Marauders) that 
Snape has
> always been a bit... lax, let's call it, on the personal grooming 
side.

All I'm going to say about this is that just because Snape has greasy 
hair and yellow teeth does not mean he is lax on his grooming.  He 
isn't dirty.  If he were we would know about it from the kids.


> There's JKR's reaction to a question about Snape's lovelife-- "Who 
would
> want Snape in love with her?" And yet she wanted Alan Rickman for 
the
> celluloid-that-must-not-be-named.

So are you saying that because Rickman is playing Snape then there 
must be some sort of 'love' thing?  I won't comment ;-) That's for 
the movie section.


>Lots of teens, male and female, go
> through periods where their hygiene is either less than desirable, 
>or simply
> out of their control. Acne, hormonal changes, eating habits,

<snip>
 
>Some listies have pointed out economic conclusions

<snip>


I don't believe any of the above have anything to do with his 
appearance. One thing I don't want to see is Snape falling in love 
and then all of a sudden he has this gorgeous head of hair and has 
had his teeth fixed.  

  
> What I don't get is those people who say that such an occurrence is 
>what
> prompted him to *leave* the DE's. Why would Voldemort order the 
>deaths of
> Snape's loved ones, if he were already working for him?

Could be that Voldemort ordered their death *after* finding out that 
Snape had left him.  

>An elaborate proving to Lily or whomever that he's really a
> good guy at heart? I suppose a case could be built for that, but 
boy, it's a
> stretch, IMO.

I think it's a big stretch.  Why would Snape want to prove anything 
to Lily?  She's married with a child. Why would he be worried about 
what she would think?  

  
> We're getting to the end, I promise. Only one more thing (and no, 
>it's not
> whether Snape's a vampire.

If he isn't a vampire then I still say there is something 
different/special about Snape.  Then there was that bat in the HP 
movie.....


>I can handle that in two words, if you like):
> Snape as DADA teacher.
>  
> Again, I believe that this is a student-based rumour and has little 
basis in
> truth. We have the canonical evidence that no one but Lockhart 
applied for
> DADA in CoS. 
>  
> However, it's *just possible* that on that occasion, Snape 
*expected* to be
> offered the job and was waiting for it to happen. Immature and way 
dumb, not
> to express interest, but just egotistical enough to be possible. He 
might
> have been testing Dumbledore's trust in him, seeing whether he 
would be
> "thought of" for the job.

I have always believed that the whole DADA thing was just a rumor or 
that if Snape wanted that position it was for the good and not bad.  
BUT I found this interview with Alan Rickman on 'Snapefans':

Message 2943 MMMfanfic

Unreel Magazine, issue 19 Oct/Dec
Interviewed by Jaspre Bark

Q.  Can you tell us a little about your character Professor Snape?

AR:  Well, he's professor of Potions and the current head of 
Slytherin House at Hogwarts-the school of wizardry that Harry 
attends, but he harbours a secret ambition to be a Professor of the 
Dark Arts.  He isn't that taken with Harry though, probably because 
he finds him a little too popular for a first-year pupil, I suppose.  
I think at heart Snape is basically quite an insecure person, he's 
always longing to be something else that people will really respect, 
like a black magician, not just a school master.  That's why he 
envies the popular and successful boys like Harry.  He does have his 
postitive side though, even though Harry's a thorn in his side, he 
doesn't let it worry him too much.~~~~

So did JKR tell Rickman that Snape wants to be respected and truly 
does want the DADA job or is he just guessing?  Sounds like Rickman 
knows something we don't.

Still I do get the impression that he loves potions but that doesn't 
mean he wouldn't prefer DADA.

  
> A final note, regarding Snape's status as Head of House. I do think 
>he's
> young, especially among wizards with longer lifespans, but I also 
>think it
> makes sense for him to be Head of House.
 
> One of my pet theories all along has been that Snape is there to 
>protect the
> Slyth kids from their own families, to be on hand as a sounding 
>board and
> confidante in case one of them should begin to fall.

anavenc wrote in message 31019:

>I also suspect that Snape might be one of Harry's guardians.  In one 
>of the books Harry, pondering on Snape's nasty attitude, has a 
>sarcasstic thought that Snape is less likely to do something nice >
(?) (can't remember what) than "adopt Harry".  Maybe, this phrase of 
>Snape adopting Harry is a hint of a magical bond between these two 
>which might be revealed in the later books.

I also happen to believe one reason that Snape is at Hogwarts is to 
protect Harry and all the other kids.  
  
> There are probably many Snape-related discussions I'm forgetting, or
> ignoring, but this has gone on more than long enough. It's time for 
>me to
> shut up.

It's never time to shut up about Snape (unless you are one of the 
many who truly hate the guy).

As for Snape and Harry, I still think there is some reason why Snape 
dislikes Harry so much.  Hagrid did change the subject and made a 
point of saying Snape would never hurt a kid.  Why would he say 
that?  Hagrid knows something.

Barb wrote in message 30937:

>I agree that there definitely could be something besides jealousy of 
>James, but that Snape's resentment of James probably plays a huge 
>role.  Imagine:  the person in school that you absolutely could not 
>stand.  he dies a tragic, horrible death, making him loved that much 
>more, posthumously.  His son, only a year old, manages to defeat 
>this horrible horrible wizard, consequently becoming the most famous 
>wizard ever.  Everyone knows him, loves him, pities him, etc.  And 
>he looks just like his father.  You don't know him, but all you ever 
>hear about is how great this kid is.  Then, then, you get this great 
>wonderful wizard in your class.  Yeah, I can see where Snape's 
>coming from.

I agree with all of the above.  I just think there is something 
else.  I don't believe Snape is the bitter, mean, nasty man he is 
just because of his jealously of James and a love for Lily.  There is 
so much more to this man.

Now for Snape and Lucius Malfoy.....

Tabouli wrote in message 31031

More Elizabeth:  I don't think Snape sees the Malfoys for the threat 
>they are.  Time to wake up and smell the pumpkin juice, in my mind.

Tabouli:
> Oh no, I think the aroma of pumpkin juice is well and truly lodged 
>in Snape's nostrils where the Malfoys are concerned.  Snape's a very 
>very suspicious character, for a start, and he surely knows that 
>Lucius is a Death Eater, and a rich, powerful, clever one.  If he 
>missed a threat that obvious, he'd never be cunning and crafty 
>enought to play a risky game like spying.  I think favouring Draco 
>is much more likely to be a sneaky subterfuge.

I agree with Tabouli.  I have never believed that Snape just loves 
Draco (though I do believe Snape will be there for him) and Lucius.  
I don't think Lucius has pulled the wool over Snape's eyes into 
thinking he is no longer a DE.  Malfoy hasn't fooled Snape.  Not 
now.  Not this time.  I could see Lucius Malfoy convincing a young 
Snape to join the DE's and now Snape is truly wanting to get back at 
the Malfoys.  I don't believe that little move Snape made at the end 
of GoF at the mention of Malfoy had anything to do with Snape being 
surprised that Lucius was still a DE.

Tabouli also said:

>As for Snape leaving Voldemort before James and Lily died and the 
>reasons therefor (?), those of you who got to the end of my 
>Unauthorised Biography of Severus Snape.... 

Sorry, I don't read any fanfic :-)

>...is that Snape himself was asked to kill the Potters, and suddenly 
>realized he couldn't do it (much as he hated James, he knew that 
>killing James would make Lily hate him forever...

Maybe V. did ask Snape to kill the Potters but I don't believe he 
gave a cows behind about Lily hating him forever unless Severus and 
Lily are related in some way and that is why he loves her.  No 
LOLLIPOPS for me ;-)

Why in the world did Snape become a DE?  Why did he leave?  Where did 
he come from?  Does he still have any family?  Why does he hate 
Harry?  What is his motivation for defeating Voldemort?  Is it just 
because he is a good guy now or does he stand to gain 
something/someone if Voldemort is finally defeated?
Unreel Magazine, issue 19 Oct/Dec

Interviewed by Jaspre Bark


Q: Can you tell us a little about your character Profesor Snape?

AR: Well, he's professor of Potions and the current head of Slytherin 
House at Hogwarts - the school of wizardry that Harry attends, but he 
harbours a secret ambition to be a Professor of the Dark Arts. He 
isn't that taken with Harry though, probably because he finds him a 
little too popular for a first-year pupil, I suppose. I think at 
heart Snape is basically quite an insecure person, he's always 
longing to be something else that people will really respect, like a 
black magician, not just a school master. That's why he envies the 
popular and successful boys like Harry. He does have his positive 
side though, even though Harry's a thorn in his side, he doesn't let 
it worry him too much. 

How I do love that character.

Koinonia