All things Snape plus Harry pt 2

[gwendolyngrace]

No: HPFGUIDX 31215

I promised I'd get back to this, so apologies to those who are
grateful that &*%$#@**($ Gwen chick wasn't around this weekend and the
list began to go in other directions....

First, two teeny brief comments on Koinonia's response to part 1 of my
post:

She wrote:
"Like Voldemort I believe Dumbledore is also getting his supporters
together. Actually I believe Dumbledore has surrounded himself for
years with those that he knows he will need when it's time to face
Voldemort again."

And I agree--Dumbledore has existing associations: The Old Crowd, in
particular. But as I said, Dumbledore must move quietly at the expense
of moving quickly, if necessary. Whereas Voldemort can move quickly,
if necessary, at the expense of moving quietly. If he is exposed, oh
well, he can still make use of the surprise, shock, and fear it will
induce. If D is exposed, he and the rest of his crew could be arrested
for sedition or treason.

And on the vampire thing, K said:
"I guess he would fear them if he had left them or maybe no one knows
he is a vampire. Maybe he is going to introduce himself to all his
brother and sister vampires for the first time ;-)"

Yes, I know. Vampires are dangerous creatures, and genre fiction
portrays their politics as Byzantine and deadly. But my point is, your
earlier expression of Dumbledore's apprehension belies any previous
"work" you suggested in order to ally with vamps. And since it's
likely that vampires will turn out to be dark creatures, since
everything else that preys on humans seems to have a dark connotation,
why would D waste time and effort on a group that is at best
unpredictable and at worst unlikely to cooperate? We already have that
going on with Hagrid; I don't see JKR working that story twice.


Okay, on to part Two.

K:
> I don't have any problems with Snape being in love or in love at one
> time.  What I have a problem with is "who did Snape love?"
<snip>
>
> The 'Past' is probably a combination of things.  I think the
> statement about Snape knowing so much of the dark arts at a young age
> is a clue.  Then that DE past is not a shining part of his life
> either.
>

Yes, I agree that knowing so many curses is a definite clue. I also
think that while the DE part of his past cannot have failed to affect
Snape, I believe more of what shaped his character came before that
(and during) than since.

I also want to point out again that part of the thing for me is that I
see the contributive factors in Snape's past--his insecurity (see
below), his bitterness, and his upbringing--as things that make him
almost incapable of love. He is entirely unable to laugh at himself.
He cannot stand ridicule or derision (at least not to his face) and he
just clings to his authority like a life preserver. This is not
someone who can let his guard down enough to let someone else in.

Is he a very lonely person? I think definitely, he is, and I
understand the appeal to those who want to rush in and fill that void
for him. But I just don't see him in any sort of relationship--I don't
even see him pining after anyone. I think he's far too scarred even as
a young man to care about anyone else romantically.

Me:
> > Okay, we hear from admittedly biased sources (the Marauders) that
> Snape has
> > always been a bit... lax, let's call it, on the personal grooming
> side.

K:
> All I'm going to say about this is that just because Snape has greasy
> hair and yellow teeth does not mean he is lax on his grooming.  He
> isn't dirty.  If he were we would know about it from the kids.
>

I'm not saying he's dirty or hasn't bathed. I'm also saying that the
sources we have to go on are highly biased against him. But I think
JKR uses his personal appearance with its overtones of nastiness to
add to his overall impression - that this is not a pleasant person.

(BTW, I had a favourite teacher in school whose hair was quite black,
limp, and always a little greasy. I never thought she didn't wash it;
just that it wasn't very attractive and was hard to keep from getting
oily.)

Me:
> > There's JKR's reaction to a question about Snape's lovelife-- "Who
> would
> > want Snape in love with her?" And yet she wanted Alan Rickman for
> the
> > celluloid-that-must-not-be-named.

K:
> So are you saying that because Rickman is playing Snape then there
> must be some sort of 'love' thing?  I won't comment ;-) That's for
> the movie section.

Not at all. I'm opposed to the love thing, remember? ;^)

I'm saying that for whatever reason, JKR clearly didn't want Snape to
look like a total skank. That if her opinion of Rickman-as-Snape
corresponds with many on this list, Snape is not particularly
handsome, but does have a *something* that makes him compelling.
(Don't throw things at me--he's not "cute," he's *sexy.* It's
attitude, not physical attraction.)

This is not a movie comment--it's a comment that if the author saw
Rickman's physical and emotive characteristics as ideal for the
character, then the character in her estimation must have most of
those characteristics.

K:
> I don't believe any of the above [me: econ, hygiene, temporary
conditions associated with teendom] have anything to do with his
> appearance. One thing I don't want to see is Snape falling in love
> and then all of a sudden he has this gorgeous head of hair and has
> had his teeth fixed.

Amen. I believe, given that our main source of information on
Snape-as-teen is Sirius, that much of what we learn is biased. OTOH,
it can't be denied that at 35-6, as he is somewhere in the timeline of
the books, he is still described with yellow teeth, greasy hair, etc.
And she doesn't specify how yellow is yellow--I mean, it could be mild
or major.


DADA:

I talked about Snape as DADA teacher and K provided an interview text
quoting AR on the role:
> AR:  Well, he's professor of Potions and the current head of
> Slytherin House at Hogwarts-the school of wizardry that Harry
> attends, but he harbours a secret ambition to be a Professor of the
> Dark Arts.  He isn't that taken with Harry though, probably because
> he finds him a little too popular for a first-year pupil, I suppose.
> I think at heart Snape is basically quite an insecure person, he's
> always longing to be something else that people will really respect,
> like a black magician, not just a school master.  That's why he
> envies the popular and successful boys like Harry.  He does have his
> postitive side though, even though Harry's a thorn in his side, he
> doesn't let it worry him too much.~~~~

Then K asks:
> So did JKR tell Rickman that Snape wants to be respected and truly
> does want the DADA job or is he just guessing?  Sounds like Rickman
> knows something we don't.

I saw this interview too, and it made me wonder whether there's any
truth in the whole DADA thing.

I _completely_ agree with AR about Snape being insecure. Ho, yeah. I'm
still not convinced that the DADA explanation isn't a. a quick and
dirty character analysis decision he made either based on superficial
info from JKR or from reading the script and taking it to be true, or
b. something JKR told him is the "accepted reading" of the part, and
is really not true, but to reveal otherwise would give away vital
clues for the next books.

There are other things in this statement that seem to come more from
his reading of the script than the motivations we believe to be deeper
(e.g., not liking Harry because of popularity, which has been a hot
topic here lately).

Witness K's own continuation:
>
> As for Snape and Harry, I still think there is some reason why Snape
> dislikes Harry so much.  Hagrid did change the subject and made a
> point of saying Snape would never hurt a kid.  Why would he say
> that?  Hagrid knows something.
>

K continued further:
> Now for Snape and Lucius Malfoy.....
>
<Snip Tabouli's comments on the odor of pumpkin juice vis-a-vis
Malfoy's guilt and Snape's open nostrils>
>
> I agree with Tabouli.  I have never believed that Snape just loves
> Draco (though I do believe Snape will be there for him) and Lucius.
I have to agree with both you ladies. I think Snape's deliberately
putting himself in a position where he can "be there" for the kids who
are potential DE's. He must remain sympathetic and yet uninvolved or
his students will not trust him enough to come to him if they need
guidance. It's a slight worry because he could easily be set up for a
trap that way.... But nonetheless the main reason I think he's in his
position. Literarily, anyway. As to how Dumbledore knew he'd need
Snape, well, again, I think it goes back to what Koinonia said about
surrounding himself with the people and allies he will need in the
event of a second confrontation with Voldemort.

> I don't think Lucius has pulled the wool over Snape's eyes into
> thinking he is no longer a DE.  Malfoy hasn't fooled Snape.  Not
> now.  Not this time.  I could see Lucius Malfoy convincing a young
> Snape to join the DE's and now Snape is truly wanting to get back at
> the Malfoys.  I don't believe that little move Snape made at the end
> of GoF at the mention of Malfoy had anything to do with Snape being
> surprised that Lucius was still a DE.

Agreed. Well, except for Lucius enticing Snape and thus Snape wanting
revenge. While I am willing to entertain thoughts that Snape may have
had contact with Malfoy influencing his decision to join the DE's, I
find it unlikely. And I don't think he's out for revenge. This is HP,
not GalaxyQuest.

I thought that little move was to touch his Dark Mark. Either it's a
simultaneous hurting thing, or with Harry spilling so many BBEFB's at
this point, Snape is fingering the mark to assess whether it's still
there, dark enough to see, and if so, whether he should show it to
Fudge, corroborate Harry's story, etc.... Then eventually he does.

K again:
> Why in the world did Snape become a DE?  Why did he leave?  Where did
> he come from?  Does he still have any family?  Why does he hate
> Harry?  What is his motivation for defeating Voldemort?  Is it just
> because he is a good guy now or does he stand to gain
> something/someone if Voldemort is finally defeated?
>

Alas, until the next book arrives, those are the questions of
speculation and fanfic. And since you don't read any of the latter, I
won't bore you with my explorations (all based on as much canonical
evidence as I can find, which isn't much).

Gwen