Four kinds of stories (was Tolkien vs. Rowling)

[brewpub44]

No: HPFGUIDX 32277

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Elizabeth Dalton <Elizabeth.Dalton at E...> 
wrote:
> As some folks know, I have some aspirations toward a writing career 
myself
> someday. (So far all I have is rejection slips, but that's a start, 
I guess.) 

Good luck to you! I tried, and flopped, & then bailed, so I wish you 
success!

> 
> A Character story is about one or more characters attempting to 
change. The
> story begins when the character decides to change or realizes they 
may need to
> change, and ends when they succeed or fail. 
As "luminary_extraordinaire" notes,
> LotR is not particularly a character story. The hobbits get 
opportunities for
> growth (literally in the case of Merry & Pippin), and Frodo is 
definitely more
> mature and wiser at the end -- Sauruman comments on it in his last 
scene. But
> that's not the focus of the story, and the "great" characters 
(Aragorn, Arwen,
> etc.) don't change. Even Gandalf dies and comes back and is still 
more or less
> the same, just more powerful. Sauruman's lack of change is tragic. 
Character
> change is, however, a main theme in the HP books (and in 
most "young adult"
> literature, I think). The changes are most dramatic in SS/PS and 
GoF, I would
> say, but are certainly present throughout the entire series, and 
since the
> series as a whole is, after all, a story about Harry growing up, it 
makes a lot
> of sense that this would be so. 
> 

I guess where I have problems with luminary_extraordinaire's original 
post on this topic was with the idea of 'character development'. 
Luminary stated that:

> "There is very little 
> narrative arc (i.e., character growth and development) in Tolkien's 
> books"

I read that to mean "Tolkien doesn't take the time to flush out the 
characters" instead of "Tolkien's characters don't change". The first 
statement I disagree with, and now on re-reading the thread perhaps 
Luminary did not mean to say that.

On the latter meaning of that sentence, to a certain extent I can 
agree, although the hobbits (IMHO the most important characters in 
the book) do change dramatically, not only individually but 
collectively.

There are limits to the effectiveness of character change as a viable 
plot line. When speaking about characters who are children, then 
change is a must. The interest is how can youngsters mature, and how 
that maturation process is impacted by the influence of other 
characters and events both within and outside of their control. So in 
HP's case, of course the kids *have* to change, the big question 
is: "how will they turn out in the end"? Does Ron let the jealousy of 
Harry override their friendship? Does Hermione shake off the 'smary 
pants' moniker? Does Harry become vengeful?

But when speaking about adults, how often do we change? Most people 
stay the way they are, the product of their upbringing & experiences 
as youth. It takes a major event to change a person, and even then 
the change is seldom dramatic, it is more of a 'push' in a direction 
they may have already been leaning.

So, excepting this time of year when the themes from "A Christmas 
Carol" dominate our minds, the idea of main characters having sudden 
epiphanies and turning their life around seems awfully cliche. 

And in some stories, the fact that the characters *don't* change, and 
must overcome various obstacles just as they are (flaws and all) 
makes for great reading. That's one of the attractions of LOTR. Take 
Samwise Gamgee, for whom Luminary seems to have a certain amount of 
dislike. Sam is patently loyal, almost to a fault, to Frodo. In the 
end, it is his loyalty that both saves Frodo and enables Sam to 
resist the power of the Ring. That loyalty does almost cost the 
success of the quest. That is one of the major themes of that book: 
loyalty to one's people, beliefs, companions, friends. 

As far as HP goes, I would like to see how the kids change as events 
unfold, how they turn out. Does Neville become a hero? Does Ron 
distinguish himself & move out of Harry's shadow? Does Hermione move 
away from being 'book smart' to being 'worldly"? Does Draco grow up?

But also of interest, how do the adult characters particular idioms 
stand up to the challenges? Are Hagrid's naively kind ways win over 
the giants to the cause? Does Snape's discriminatory interactions 
with Harry have a purpose greater than we can see? Is Mad Moody's 
uncurable paranoia (and near dementia) just the perfect weapon 
against the DE's? Or does any of their foibles spell ruin for the 
fight against LV?

Character change is not always a good thing, and the absence of it 
does not make for bad literature.

> Elizabeth
> (who re-read LotR to prep for the movie she still hasn't had time 
to see, and is
> now stalled in the middle of the Silmarillion)

I've been an LOTR fan for over 20 years, and never made it through 
the Silmarillillion.  I can't even spell it. Too much detail can be a 
very bad thing.

A Barkeep in Diagon Alley