From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Feb  1 00:08:30 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:08:30 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 529-Draco's pronounce
References: <980985530.40082.58716.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <011901c08be3$1cb16a00$464a28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11392

I happen to be an American, and I pronounce it DRAH-ko and keep correcting
the tapes when they pronounce it the other way.  I don't know if it's just
from where I live or what because I pronounce Sirius differently as well.
But I think the proper way is DRAH-ko, but that's my just humble opinion.


*****
If something you thought was difficult turns out to be far to easy...be
suspicious, someone's screwing with you.

Whoever called it 'memory lane' was a cretin.  Lane conjures up the image of
a pretty country road lined with flowers, blue sky, birds chirping. Maybe
that was what it was like if you were lucky. As far as I'm  concerned,
however, memory is a black road lined with cruel thorns, paved with jagged
rocks, and bordered with the gravestones of my friends and family.




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Feb  1 00:16:41 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 00:16:41 -0000
Subject: Is Draco Redeemable?  (was Re: The Death of Cedric)
In-Reply-To: <95a6ol+m4g0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95a9t9+tbvd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11393

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
I sure am, and I'm learning something about human nature or something 
> by his fic transformation into leather sex god. It drives me nuts 
> especially when he so often gets paired up with Ginny. Or Hermione! 
> Yeah, right! "You foul! You EVIL!" Right on, Hermione.




*blinks innocently* What, so Ron and Hermione's constant bickering at 
each other is Sexual Tension, but Hermione whacking Malfoy about the 
face isn't? <vbg> There are endless Very Long Posts over on hpslash 
and the Draco egroup (yes, he has his own egroup) about Why We Like 
Malfoy, and How Draco Is Redeemable In Canon, many very eloquent. 
Perhaps I ought to ask permission to post one over here, since I'm 
far too lazy to write one myself.

The Ginny/Draco pairing is most definitely Fanon Draco and Fanon 
Ginny, Fanon Draco being not-so-evil and Fanon Ginny being (as 
typified by Lori) a strong, funny, in-charge sort of girl, very 
different from her rather ... I won't say it ... canon self. Canon 
Draco and Canon Ginny would surely be a disaster, as Draco would say 
nasty things to her and she would cry; it would be a sad, damp, 
uninteresting sort of affair.

<g>

Cassie




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 01:08:13 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:08:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Suggestion to decrease the volume
References: <959mu3+9bg0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00cb01c08bec$6ce40740$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11394


Joywitch
I can dearly see where you're coming from.  My own ship dead in the water
before it begins (me too Simon Biber!), I am only slightly into the other
ships; and tend to delete those first (sorry guys)!  I just can't handle the
volume via email otherwise...

At least my harddrive doesn't complain about the temp. space taken up before
I read them. :)

May I second your motion?


______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <joym999 at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:52 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Suggestion to decrease the volume


> I have a suggestion which will probably result in my getting turned
> into a canary, but here goes:
>
> I have been overwhelmed with the number of posts on this group and
> unable to keep up, even though I read the group on the web and skip
> over the stuff I am not interested in. (even that takes time) If I am
> unable to check the group for even a day or two it is usually
> hopeless to try and catch up.
>
> I think we really need to cut down on the volume, and one way to do
> it would be to ship out the shippers.  Now, I admit I am biased: I am
> not a shipper, I dont care whether Hermione gets involved with Ron,
> Harry, Viktor Krum or Dobby.  But wouldnt it make sense to have
> another group for shipping discussions?  The shippers wouldnt have to
> leave this group, just go to another group when they want to sail.
> That would cut down the posts on this group by half.
>
> It was just a suggestion...dont hurt me.
>
> --Joywitch
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 01:16:02 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:16:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's True Motives (aka "OH NEIL!")
References: <959van+n5tk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d801c08bec$a387c2a0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11395

(*reading the following, and laughing hysterically, calls "OH NEIL! LOL!")

There will be a substantial portion on AD's gleam in the faqs, fear not!
For further information, please feel free to ask Neil (I believe it is you,
correct, who's got the gleam, sweetie?  Chuckles more!) what postings it
is--I'm certain he'd email you the whole four page document of only #'s....

(I'm just teasing you, btw.  Please, take this in a friendly fashion.  I
couldn't help it--and seriously started laughing when I read your
paragraph.)


______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <Unlucky07 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 3:16 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's True Motives


<"And he was right-he could touch me without hurting himself, he
<touched my face."
<For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something
<like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes.  But next second, Harry was sure
<he imagined it, .

<I was just interested in what other people thought about the
<reaction
<of Dumbledore to the fact that Voldemort was no longer incapable of
<hurting Harry.

I actually have been reading over that section last night and I found
it interesting how it was described.  I'm new to the group also so I
don't know if it has been discussed, but here are some thoughts on
it...

Dumbledore may have seen a weakness in Voldemort that was never
there.  Before Harry defeated Voldemort, it sounds like he was pretty
invincible, we still don't know what caused his defeat.  Could it be
that  using Harry's blood caused more then Voldemort's accension?  It
may have enabled Voldemort to break down that defense of Harry's but
it may also have given them a way to finally bring down Voldemort.

The other thought, one that I am reluctant to think about, is that
Albus Dumbledore may not be the character that I have always thought
him to be.  Why exactly is Dumbledore the only person that Voldemort
fears?!  You have to admit that it would be a crazy Plot Twist if
Dumbledore turns out to be Voldemorts master...  Nah... to crazy...



Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Feb  1 00:27:12 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:27:12 -0500
Subject: Hermione regarding Neville
References: <959a0v+mgcd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A78AD60.AC2DAA34@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11396



Kimberly wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Karin wrote:
> > > Why doesn't anyone seem to know about his parents?
> >
> > I wonder whether Hermione knows.  She's read up on the history of
> V's
> > rise and fall and it may well have been in there.  Score another 2
> > points for her sensitivity if so, for reaching out to Neville and
> > keeping his loss to herself.
> >
> I wondered about that as well.  The Longbottoms seem to have been
> rather in the forefront of the fight, so she may well have read about
> it.  If so, though, I wonder why she wouldn't have brought it up at
> some point.  I know she wouldn't want to mention it since Neville
> hasn't, wanting to respect his feelings, but in his defense at some
> point I'd think she might mention it.

Well, on the first train ride to Hogwarts, upon being introduced to Harry, Hermione says:

> "Are you really?" said Hermione. "I know all about you, of course -- I
> got a few extra books. for background reading, and you're in Modern
> Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Great
> Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century.
> <SNIP>
> "Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything I could if it
> was me," said Hermione.
>
And this is what she says to Harry The Orphan - while she's standing right there with Neville, whose name she knows (at least his first name) - and I am now wondering if, upon
meeting Neville, she said something like,
"Oh, I know all about your parents - they're in Modern Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Tragidies of the Reign Of You Know Who..."
and he still went walking around with her.
Then again, in the long run, Harry didn't hold her almost completely insensitive comments to him against her in the long run...perhaps as the books go by, this will be counted by
the Neville Is Tougher & Braver Than He Looks people as another point in his favor...?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ffionelin at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Feb  1 00:33:10 2001
From: ffionelin at yahoo.co.uk (ffionelin at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 00:33:10 -0000
Subject: R/H, H/G, OBHWF, M-O-U-S-E
In-Reply-To: <95a6go+j0q5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95aas6+hts9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11397

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> Thoughts on some shipping threads:
> 
> Pairing Harry with Ginny was never a 'consolation prize' to my 
mind.  
> If I'm remembering correctly, I saw an H/G pairing consciously 
before 
> I saw R/H.  Saw it in CoS, once Ginny got to HW, and was given 
> *something* to do.  I have no idea what JKR is planning; this is 
just 
> my hunch (for no air-tight reasons at all).  Yes, Ginny is not 
> developed yet.  There are three books to go, though, guys.  Moody 
> wasn't well-developed before GoF in which he figured very 
strongly.  
> Granted that was a long book, JKR had plenty of space in which to 
> develop him.  I still contend that all it will take to make Ginny a 
> well-developed character is one book.  She's had more 'page-time' 
> than Cho, yet we all saw her as a romantic interest for Harry, 
albeit 
> just a crush in which he didn't know anything about her.  I agree, 
> Harry ~is~ part of the Weasley family, and Hermione too, to an 
> extent, so pairing these characters off isn't necessary to show 
> that.  I do not believe that JKR will not go in -some- romantic 
> direction with any of the characters, though.  With the 
similarities 
> that can, and have been, drawn between the Marauder generation and 
> the generation of today, some romantic pairing seems a given to 
me... 
> 
> I also strongly contend that if anyone can make OBHWF happen 
without 
> sap, it's JKR.  Cliche, maybe; but perhaps this scenario will serve 
> her purposes.  We don't know yet.  The characters seem ripe with 
> cliched characteristics to me, so I wouldn't put any cliche past 
> JKR.  I will say that JKR has avoided sap and schmaltz thus far 
> wonderfully well.  I venture to think most would agree with me on 
> that.  Now, given that, why would anyone assume if JKR goes for 
> the 'tied up in a bow' ending, that she will do so sappily?  I can 
> see her guiding our realizations of whom the characters 'end up 
with' 
> the same way she has handled so many other bits already:  Mrs. 
> Weasley hugging Harry while he tries to choke back long withheld 
> tears; Sirius' reaction when Harry tells them about J & L coming 
out 
> of Vold's wand and speaking to him; the *Kiss; Harry seeing J & L, 
et 
> al, in Erised; on and on.  To me, these situations were handled 
with 
> a minimum of sap, so I'm thinking that if big-happy-family is where 
> this will all end up, JKR certainly won't choose that time to go 
> heavy on the saccharine.  She may go this route in such a way that 
it 
> will seem 'right', even to those who right now may think this would 
> be the most disappointing ending of all.  Additionally, if JKR 
really 
> does not want to ever return to HP once the series is done, giving 
> the impression of Happily Ever After for the characters would be a 
> good way to avoid the pleas she'll surely get to continue.  If she 
> gives enough hints as to what the future will be of the characters, 
> enough sense of closure for the characters and the story in 
general, 
> fans should be relatively satisfied.  Thoughts? 
> Kelley

In answer to your thoughts on the possible pairings off in HP - I 
really can't decide whether JKR will go for the obvious Ron/Hermione, 
Harry/Ginny, since this is what we could be led to expect - and she 
is great at taking the story on a path that isn't really possible to 
guess [well, maybe that's just me!].  However, there is obviously 
something between Ron and Hermione that'll have to be addressed in 
some way if love/relationships are tobe introduced properly in HP.
I also agree that Ginny will become a more rounded character - 
perhaps she isn't so much now because we might see her [in terms of 
importance] through Harry's eyes - and being his friend's little 
sister, she isn't that important.  but as she gets older  does 
something perhaps to prove herself as not being just a little sister 
[who was naive and had to be rescued by Harry], his interest/respect 
for her will grow and so we, the reader, will have the opportunity of 
getting to know her better too - and I think she'll turn out to be a 
fully-rounded character, as are H/R/H - and not a cliche of any kind 
[a la Bagman/Lockhart] - she will do something brave/courageous, I'm 
sure ot it.
There is also, of course, the old 'red hair' arguement on ginny's 
side - a la Lily/James - but will the paralels witht he that 
generation really be that similar?

but, as you say, I think we can trust JKR not to be too soppy or 
obvious about what's going on - partly I suppose because she's aware 
that quite young children are reading these books.  

I just hope that, whatever it is, it will be a satisfactory ending - 
a point which I am dreading terribly!  To have nothing else to look 
forward to and speculate about with Harry will be quite awful!  

Ffion 




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Feb  1 00:30:58 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 00:30:58 -0000
Subject: R/H, H/G, OBHWF, M-O-U-S-E
In-Reply-To: <95a6go+j0q5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95aao2+57h5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11398

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
Pairing Harry with Ginny was never a 'consolation prize' to my 
mind.   > If I'm remembering correctly, I saw an H/G pairing 
consciously before  > I saw R/H.  Saw it in CoS, once Ginny got to 
HW, and was given  > *something* to do.  I have no idea what JKR is 
planning; this is just   my hunch (for no air-tight reasons at all).  
Yes, Ginny is not  developed yet.  There are three books to go, 
though, guys.  Moody  wasn't well-developed before GoF in which he 
figured very strongly.    Granted that was a long book, JKR had 
plenty of space in which to   develop him.  I still contend that all 
it will take to make Ginny a  well-developed character is one book.  
She's had more 'page-time'  than Cho, yet we all saw her as a 
romantic interest for Harry, albeit  just a crush in which he didn't 
know anything about her."  


*blinks* I'm confused. Moody wasn't well-developed before GoF because 
he was never mentioned before GoF, IIRC. Am I wrong? There's a 
difference between a character who is present and undeveloped and a 
character who just doesn't exist at all.

I don't see pairing Harry with Ginny as a consolation prize either. I 
simply hope that if Ginny is to wind up as the romantic interest of 
our hero, JKR will develop her further, give her a personality and 
some interesting things to do. I'm not saying JKR doesn't have plenty 
of time to do this, nor am I saying she won't. I'd think most H/H 
shippers would agree with me. If Ginny is to be with Harry, she needs 
more character development. That's all. 

I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has feeling 
for Ginny -- if anything he pretty consciously shuts her out of the 
Trio); as for G/H, although it is blindingly obvious that Ginny likes 
Harry, I'm not sure what significance to gift that with. After all, 
Harry likes Cho and I'm fairly sure that that's not going to go 
anywhere. (*crosses fingers and prays.*)

Kelly wrote: "I also strongly contend that if anyone can make OBHWF 
happen without  sap, it's JKR.  Cliche, maybe; but perhaps this 
scenario will serve her purposes.  We don't know yet.  The characters 
seem ripe with cliched characteristics to me, so I wouldn't put any 
cliche past JKR. "

I wonder how happy she'd be to hear that you wouldn't put any cliche 
past her? <g> Yikes. I'm not sure I agree that the characters are 
ripe with cliched characteristics. There is a difference between 
cliches and archetypes, and it appears to me more that JKR enjoys 
toying with archetypes, postmodernly, than than she enjoys wallowing 
in cliches and platitudes. As for OBHWF, the whole argument is a bit 
silly since it all seems to center around "Ron marries Hermione, 
Harry marries Ginny." At the end of the series, Ginny will be all of 
sixteen. Nobody's marrying anyone. (I hope.)

Cassie

Cassie







From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Feb  1 00:32:03 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:32:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another strike against the artists?
References: <959gn1+c7cv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A78AE83.D1557AA6@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11399



rlpenar at yahoo.com wrote:

> Anyone else seen today's page on the daily HP calendar? It shows
> the "Official Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry" shield,
> consisting of a gold shield with a large black H in the center. No
> crests from all the houses, just the big H. What the heck??

The shield, if my understanding of heraldry is correct (and it may not be) is the MIDDLE portion of the crest - the crest has the different house animal symbols - if that's the
case, the shield termonology is correct.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 01:29:24 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:29:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Penny, OT, Blocking accidently when using OE 5.5!
References: <95a77c+paph@eGroups.com> <3A78A305.196757FB@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <014a01c08bee$6ee124e0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11400

I accidentally clicked the wrong name one day (aka Penny) when blocking a
porno spam that arrived in my e-inbox (ick!  Why would I want to go see
35-45 year old woman trying to pretend they are 12 year old school girls, or
whatever else it was that they wanted?  I just delete them--saner), and for
weeks now tried every means to get her name back to my inbox again.  Each
time I tried various things--creating a new rule, etc... but it didn't work!

Finally some nice person explained me to how to "unblock"
(tools-rules--blocked senders list) and Penny is once again where she
belongs, yeah!

Why am I sending this to the rest of you guys' boxes?  Just in case I am not
the only blonde out there, some of you might need to know how to fix a
similar mistake.

Hope my experience helps someone else!

Grins.  WB Penny, although you never left!

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: R/H website


> Hi --
>
> ffionelin at yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> > Penny - what's the website address for superquills - or the boards yo
> > talk about for the R/H people?  I'm a devoted Ron adorer [and have
> > been traumatised for a while about the possiblity that he will -
> > though most definately unwittingly - betray Harry in some way] - I'd
> > love to join in your R/H world!
>
> Ooh -- boy, do you have the *wrong* person!  <vbg>  You must mean
> Zsenya.  I'm uh .... the Captain of the H/H Cruiseliner and not by any
> means a Ron devotee.
>
> I would nonetheless pass on the website info if I had it, but I don't.
> I'm sure Zsenya or Kathy will respond in due time however.  :--)
>
> Penny
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Feb  1 00:33:45 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:33:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] pronunciation help: Draco
References: <9597vr+7m8t@eGroups.com> <0a6d01c08ba9$c89fbea0$4cdafea9@EAGLE>
Message-ID: <3A78AEE8.BCBD56E4@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11401

My post from this morning seems to have gotten lost.
The website at http://www.scholastci.com/harrypotter has the pronunciation guide which shows it pronounced the exact same way Steve's Lexicon shows it - which means of course, that
Steve is right.
As usual.


We think you're very good too, Oliver : )

Simon Biber wrote:

> > I received a feedback to the Lexicon from someone who questioned what
> > I put for Draco's name on the Pronunciation Page of the Lexicon. I
> > used DRAY-ko, which is the way my American mouth says it and the way
> > Jim Dale says it on the tapes. That just sounds right to me. This
> > person suggested that since it's from Latin, it should be pronounced
> > DRAH-ko. Granted, it would be /ah/ in Latin (the word draconis would
> > be pronounced drah-KO-nus), but DRAH-ko just sounds weird to me. Is
> > my American bias showing or what here? Help me out...
>
> I agree that the Latin would be pronounced DRAH-ko. I'm one of these people
> who pronounces Caesar KAI-sar and Caecilius kai-KI-li-us. Nevertheless, I
> would say Draco Malfoy as DRAH-ko. Am I any help?
>
> Simon.
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Feb  1 00:50:01 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 00:50:01 -0000
Subject: Shipping through the cracks
In-Reply-To: <959ig1+lku3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95abrp+57nu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11402

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> Anyone think that Molly is ticked at Hermione not only for throwing 
> over Harry dear, but also for not tumbling to the fact that Molly's 
> Ronnikins loves her?  (Mothers have a talent for knowing we like 
> someone before we even know it ourselves.)
> 
*stunned* Good Lord, no. I don't see any evidence of that at all. 
Molly relents completely towards Hermione once Harry clears it up 
that Hermione is not Doing Him Wrong. I'm quite fond of Molly and I'd 
hate to think she'd be so petty and unpleasant as to be cold to 
Hermione and give her inadequate gifts for something so minor and 
involuntary as not realizing Ron has a crush on her. *snort*

Cassie




From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Thu Feb  1 00:53:28 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 00:53:28 -0000
Subject: Chat transcripts
Message-ID: <95ac28+d6u2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11403

Yahoo doesn't seem to like messages over 64K, so the chat transcripts 
over at the HPforGrownupsChatScripts group will all be truncated 
(much to my chagrin as I wanted to read the embarassing bit about 
everyone's love lives again :-)). In future we will have to put them 
in the Files section.

Keith




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Feb  1 00:51:39 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:51:39 -0500
Subject: hermione & neville
References: <95a9t9+tbvd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A78B31B.CB886452@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11404

I wrote this really nice post, and YGroups ate it! I didn't send a blank post to the list, moderator-people - I SWEAR!
I sent this:



Kimberly wrote:

  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
  > Karin wrote:
  > > Why doesn't anyone seem to know about his parents?
  >
  > I wonder whether Hermione knows.  She's read up on the history of
  V's
  > rise and fall and it may well have been in there.  Score another 2
  > points for her sensitivity if so, for reaching out to Neville and
  > keeping his loss to herself.
  >
  I wondered about that as well.  The Longbottoms seem to have been
  rather in the forefront of the fight, so she may well have read about
  it.  If so, though, I wonder why she wouldn't have brought it up at
  some point.  I know she wouldn't want to mention it since Neville
  hasn't, wanting to respect his feelings, but in his defense at some
  point I'd think she might mention it.

Well, on the first train ride to Hogwarts, upon being introduced to Harry, Hermione says:

  "Are you really?" said Hermione. "I know all about you, of course -- I
  got a few extra books. for background reading, and you're in Modern
  Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Great
  Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century.
  <SNIP>
  "Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything I could if it
  was me," said Hermione.

And this is what she says to Harry The Orphan - while she's standing right there with Neville, whose name she knows (at least
his first name) - and I am now wondering if, upon meeting Neville, she said something like,
"Oh, I know all about your parents - they're in Modern Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Tragidies
of the Reign Of You Know Who..."
and he still went walking around with her.
Then again, in the long run, Harry didn't hold her almost completely insensitive comments to him against her in the long
run...perhaps as the books go by, this will be counted by the Neville Is Tougher & Braver Than He Looks people as another
point in his favor...?




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Feb  1 00:59:29 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:59:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Draco Redeemable?  (was Re: The Death of Cedric)
References: <95a9t9+tbvd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A78B4F1.FADE7731@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11405



cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> I sure am, and I'm learning something about human nature or something
> > by his fic transformation into leather sex god. It drives me nuts
> > especially when he so often gets paired up with Ginny. Or Hermione!
> > Yeah, right! "You foul! You EVIL!" Right on, Hermione.
>
> *blinks innocently* What, so Ron and Hermione's constant bickering at
> each other is Sexual Tension, but Hermione whacking Malfoy about the
> face isn't? <vbg> There are endless Very Long Posts over on hpslash
> and the Draco egroup (yes, he has his own egroup) about Why We Like
> Malfoy, and How Draco Is Redeemable In Canon, many very eloquent.
> Perhaps I ought to ask permission to post one over here, since I'm
> far too lazy to write one myself.

Over the past few days, we've had a lot of posts from people saying "Snape may not be so bad - we only see him through Harry's eyes!" and the like.
Well, it's the same for Draco - other than the one scene in CoS where, admittedly, he acts a little sociopathic - we've only seen him through Harry's eyes.
For all we know (shameless plug here for my fanfic, Surfeit of Curses) he's off studying in the library with Hermione at odd hours of the day & night through 3rd & 4th years, and
only acts jerky to her when they've had a fight about something completely unrelated to him being bigoted - and the only way he knows how to strike at her is to act that way.
We also don't know whether those daily sweet packages from home contain Lucius' Daily Affirmations, including "Step on people less powerful than yourself, especially mudbloods and
weasleys" and Time Delayed Howlers which only go off when he's alone, which contain Lucius yelling at him, saying that he'd heard that Draco was not being actively mean enough to
students of muggle background, and he'd better improve at crushing their spirits.
And I have my own ideas about what Lucius told Draco about Cedric's death, which will fit word for word with what he said on the train, and won't excuse the complete cruelty of it,
but ...




From star_ling at crosswalkmail.com  Thu Feb  1 01:53:28 2001
From: star_ling at crosswalkmail.com (Star)
Date: 31 Jan 2001 17:53:28 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 2 2's 2 b wed
Message-ID: <20010201015328.27593.cpmta@c001.snv.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11407

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010131/9fb657b6/attachment.ksh>

From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Feb  1 02:29:58 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:29:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shipping Through the Cracks - Daily Affirmations
Message-ID: <200102010241.f112fIC13230@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11408

Zsenya wrote:
>Kathy - can we incorporate the good ship R/H rules onto SugarQuill right
>now? (I'm cc-ing you on this in case I fail in posting it to the list - I'm
>still having problems)  Here are our Daily Affirmations at sugarquill.com.
>There are a few more that I need to add.  It's all in good fun...Our mission
>statement can be found at http://www.sugarquill.com/spew.html It's a bit
>elitist I know, but these affirmations are what started the whole site for
>Arabella and myself.  And it's not entirely true anymore, we try to be nice
>to everyone.

Oh, Zsenya, darling, of course you can!  (Actually most of them were inspired 
by your Daily Affirmations anyway, just put into nautical terms).

And for those (Penny <g>) who think the Good Ship R/H has too many rules, I 
would point out that every ship has standards of behavior; we just post ours 
and make them known.  We never said it was suppression of freedom of speech; 
we merely said if you want to do any Weasley-bashing, do it on your own ship.
:)

Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
ready to head the liner over to SugarQuill island for a rest stop




From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Feb  1 02:32:50 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:32:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rina's drinks and Let's Party!
Message-ID: <200102010244.f112iCC13814@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11409

OK, now we definitely need to have an HP party!  We've got the drinks and 
everything.  Anybody here from the Baltimore/Washington D.C area? (Sorry, 
Rina's drinks made me so excited I can't wait for the poll to close.)  You can 
email me off-list if you want.

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
kathleen at carr.org




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 02:52:51 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 02:52:51 -0000
Subject: Musings on Ron 
In-Reply-To: <3A781CF7.BC6F2548@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95aj23+gbao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11410

I wrote-
"I just don't like or relate to Ron. (I know that is no excuse) To a
certain extent I also think that the character most like me is
Hermione and so I want to set her up with the hero."

and Kathy responded-
See, crew?  They even admit it!  ;)

Then Penny reminded her-
"They"??  Or, Scott?  See H/H'ers -- we get maligned as a group for 
the opinions/perceptions of one of our members.  :--)  For the 
record, I don't relate to Ron either, but I do like him.  I prefer 
Harry &Hermione though -- by far.  I relate to Hermione, and I like 
them both.I like them together.  :)"

--I don't deny it. I don't relate to Ron, and I don't (exactly) like 
him. However the latter is not exactly the result of the former. 

Basically I have little to nothing in common with Ron. I'm an only 
child, and when working in groups or with friends I always like to be 
in charge, I'm studious even though I wouldn't proclaim myself to be 
exceptionally bright.  I see an awful lot of myself in Hermione, and 
to a certain extent Harry. I just don't see myself in Ron. I enjoy 
him as a character, however it is difficult for me to "get inside his 
head".

(It is now four hours since I wrote the first part...been away from 
my computer!)

As to why I don't like Ron, well it wasn't always that way. In the 
first book I would have said that I like him more than Hermione. 
(gasp) It was fun to watch their friendship grow. This typical wizard 
kid and the most famous wizard alive becoming fast friends was 
interesting. Especially when you think about how Ironic it is that 
Ron has grown up in a world that is in debt to HP, and yet he has to 
teach Harry about that world. 

I would venture to say that Harry and Hermione have more in common 
than Harry and Ron, or Ron and Hermione. They both grew up knowing 
nothing (or should it be 'not knowing anything'?) about the Wizarding 
world, and they have both distingushed themselves in some way among 
their peers. (Hermione by her academic excellence and Harry by no 
'fault' of his own.)  Ron doesn't connect on that level, not that he 
doesn't connect with them, just not IMO on that level.

So why don't I like him now? I don't know but it was something in 
GoF. Just a feeling...which brings me to...

Someone wrote:
"7.. NO ONE is allowed to say that Ron will turn bad (Well okay, you
can say it - freedom of speech and all that. But we'll kick you out.)"

--But what if I think that Ron WILL turn bad and betray Harry. Ok I 
don't think that it's a given, but it COULD play out.  After GoF I 
can see the seed there. Not that Ron isn't Harry's friend as much as 
he was, but their fight, well it was totally uncalled for. I mean it 
doesn't even make sense that Harry would have put his name in the 
goblet. Hermione believed Harry. Does she trust Harry more, or am I 
missing the concept?

There is bound to be more controversy, confusion and suspicion 
surronding Harry in the future. Will Ron openly turn away from Harry 
and ally himself with the big V? Probably not. Will Ron, perhaps by 
no fault of his own betray Harry. IMNSHO it is  VERY likely. Who 
knows this type of betrayal could even be the result of a (R/H?) 
romantic subplot.

Penny wrote:
Can I say Ron *could* betray Harry (even unwittingly)?  There's a
difference between speculating about possibilities and making firm
predictions.  I know I've never said "Ron will turn evil."  I've only
speculated that there is the potential for him to betray Harry -- 
either unwittingly (falling into a Voldemort trap -- seduced by 
riches, etc.) or because he was motivated by a fleeting emotion at 
the exact wrong time (jealousy over Hermione perhaps)."

--Basically what I said above just reiterates this. I completely 
agree.


Penny wrote this too:
"My perception is that the R/H camp seems quite bent on being sure Ron
receives *no* criticism of any kind (while liberally dishing it out to
the other characters I might add).  Is this zero-tolerance policy
sanctioned by the leadership of the Good Ship R/H?"

--I for one am thankful to be on the SS H/H!

Scott





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  1 03:26:13 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:26:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death of the Little Princes (R-3 OT)
References: <980891858.121403.96078.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <003601c08bfe$bb9a9cc0$c8c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11411


----- Original Message -----
From: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 4:57 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 522


>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>    Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:53:07 -0000
>    From: msl at fc.net
> Subject: Re: The Death of Cedric
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., harry_potter00 at y... wrote:
>
> > It's just that Cedric's death didn't really do
> > that.  He was alive and then he was dead. I have to agree that it's
> > unsettling the way AK works, but doesn't make for a good literary
> > death scene.
>
> In this case I think that "unliterariness" was part of the point.
> Cedric's death reminded me of one of those scenes in gangster movies
> where the bad guy reaches out with his .45 and blows some poor slob's
> head off just for the hell of it.  The closest literary parallel that
> jumps to my mind is in Richard III, when Richard orders the children
> in the Tower of London killed; it's not something he needs to do,
> necessarily, it's just convenient.

 On the contrary - Richard III - at least the evil literary Richard III  of
the Elizabethan stage - needed to get the little princes out of the way just
as surely as Voldemort needed to dispense with the Potters *pere et fils*.
As long as the princes - the sons of the late king Edward IV - remained
alive, Richard's claim to the throne remained clouded, since he was
appointed to serve as their regent (the princes were then 12 and 10 years
old IIRC) until they reached an age to rule on their own.

(and did the historical Richard III - not nearly the blackguard his literary
reputation would suggest - really kill the princes?
The issue is thoroughly thrashed out by the Richard III Society:

  http://www.webcom.com/r3/intro.html


A better parallel would be R-3's ruthless removal of Buckingham, who had
served him loyally and skillfully, before R-3 decided to dispense of him.

   - CMC






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  1 03:37:02 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:37:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco and Rufus Johnson
References: <980921502.5705.86780.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <004901c08c00$405e89c0$c8c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11412

>    Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:03:38 -0800 (PST)
>    From: Teek <purdymango1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Is Draco Redeemable? + Draco/Snape relationship
>

Is Draco redeemable? That's like asking if Rufus Johnson is redeemable.  I
refer to the antagonist of Flannery O'Connor's novella The Lame Shall Enter
First.  Draco performs the same function in the HP narrative that Johnson
performs for O'Connor.

     - CMC




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Feb  1 03:32:08 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 03:32:08 -0000
Subject: Neville's parents, Harry's defence of Hermione
Message-ID: <95albo+71ql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11413

Amy, Kimberly (and perhaps others whom I've forgotten) were wondering 
if Hermione knew about Neville's parents.  Apparently not, because in 
GoF, after Crouch/Moody demonstrated the Unforgiveable Curses in 
class, she says she doesn't. It's on p. 219, American edition, after 
Crouch/Moody steers Neville away to calm him down.  "What was that 
all about?" said Ron, watching Neville and Moody turn the corner.
"I don't know," said Hermione,looking pensive.
So, apparently, she doesn't know--or am I reading this wrong?

There has also been, in this shipper debate a lot of talk about how 
Ron is always the one defending Hermione.  Harry does too, guys!  
Again, it's in GoF and it's what causes Hermione's teeth to grow. 
Draco (as usual) says something sarcastic about Hermione and Harry 
hexes him.  Draco hexes Harry and Goyle and Hermione end up being 
hexed instead.  

Just my 2 knuts!

Peace and Plenty,

Parker
   




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 03:36:32 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 03:36:32 -0000
Subject: English as a second Language (OT)
In-Reply-To: <01c08b5a$0669fa20$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <95alk0+9gcl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11414

Monika wrote:
"I plead guilty. "Odp" is Polish abbreviation of "answer" (an 
equivalent of Re is dot.) The computer wizard I called for help says 
that as I have Polish version of Windows there's no way to set it to 
say Re. I'll try to remember to change it manually. Sorry for the 
trouble."

I don't really see any reason to apologize. This just made me think 
about what an accomplishment it is for people to learn english as 
their second language an still be so proficent in it. (I know we've 
discussed this before but-) I truly salute you!

My English is "comme ci, comme ca" and my french is limited to asking 
"Ou est Mona Lisa?" (I still managed to get lost in the Louvre, with 
a map too, and ended up wandering aimlessly through Moslem 
Antiquities- not a good experience...)

Scott




From msl at fc.net  Thu Feb  1 03:44:30 2001
From: msl at fc.net (Marvin Long, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:44:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Filk:  I'm in Love With My Car
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10101312134140.48567-100000@freeside.fc.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11415


Filk to the tune of "I'm in Love With My Car" by Queen
song found on _A Night at the Opera_

Lead singer:  Arthur Weasley
Chorus:  Fred, George, & Ron Weasley, plus Harry Potter

--------------

Oooooooo ooouuuuooouuoooooo....

The machine of a dream, O Muggle machine,
With the pistons a-pumpin', and charmed valves that scream!

When I'm holding your wheel
I can fly like a Lear;

When I magicked your grease gun
Oh, I shivered with frission!

I'm in love with my ca-a-ar (ch: in love with my car!)
     It's like no other automobile;  (oooouuuooouuooo)
Get a grip for that pitch, lean and yaw, (oooouuuooouuooo)
     Take a ride in my Ford Anglia!  (Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh!)

Told my wife I was just doing research,
The family's good name, I never would besmirch;

I got found out when the boys whomped a willow,
So deep into debt my wife and I will go.

(OoooouuuuOoooouuuuu)

But when I'm holding her wheel,
She eradicates fear;

When I'm chasin' a tall cloud,
I can kiss off the whole bloody Ministry crowd!

I'm in love with my ca-a-ar (I'm in love with my car, with my car)
     It's like no other automobile;  (oooouuuooouuooo)
I'm in love with my ca-a-ar, (I'm in love with my car, with my car)
     Watch out broomsticks, I'm flying in style!

----------------

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas




From msl at fc.net  Thu Feb  1 03:47:17 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 03:47:17 -0000
Subject: Death of the Little Princes (R-3 OT)
In-Reply-To: <003601c08bfe$bb9a9cc0$c8c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <95am85+qrqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11416

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> 
>  On the contrary - Richard III - at least the evil literary Richard 
> III  of the Elizabethan stage - needed to get the little princes 
> out of the way just as surely as Voldemort needed to dispense with 
> the Potters *pere et fils*.
> As long as the princes - the sons of the late king Edward IV - 
> remained alive, Richard's claim to the throne remained clouded, 
> since he was appointed to serve as their regent (the princes were 
> then 12 and 10 years old IIRC) until they reached an age to rule on 
> their own.
> 

Hrm, quite right.  I wonder what I was cluing in on...maybe the 
(reputed) needless brutality of the (alleged) killings.  But then 
what murder isn't needlessly brutal?

marvin




From msl at fc.net  Thu Feb  1 03:56:52 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 03:56:52 -0000
Subject: Suggestion to decrease the volume
In-Reply-To: <00cb01c08bec$6ce40740$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <95amq4+g3as@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11417

May I humbly dissent?  If you can't handle the volume, try switching 
to digest mode.  Then you'll get a table of contents with each digest 
and you can skim one digest, focusing on the meat that interests you, 
much more quickly than you can read 25 separate messages. I skim most 
of the shipper stuff myself, but there are nuggets of gold in there 
sometimes and I don't want to miss them.

marvin

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> 
> Joywitch
> I can dearly see where you're coming from.  My own ship dead in the 
water
> before it begins (me too Simon Biber!), I am only slightly into the 
other
> ships; and tend to delete those first (sorry guys)!  I just can't 
handle the
> volume via email otherwise...
> 
> At least my harddrive doesn't complain about the temp. space taken 
up before
> I read them. :)
> 
> May I second your motion?
> 





From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 04:00:25 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Ginny Love)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:00:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Crest (was re: Another strike against the artists)
Message-ID: <20010201040025.68410.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11418

>> Anyone else seen today's page on the daily HP
>calendar? It shows
>> the "Official Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and
>Wizardry" shield,
>> consisting of a gold shield with a large black H in

>the center. No
>> crests from all the houses, just the big H. What
the >heck??

>The shield, if my understanding of heraldry is
correct >(and it may not 
>be) is the MIDDLE portion of the crest - the crest
has >the different 
>house animal symbols - if that's the
>case, the shield termonology is correct.

<blinks> my, aren't we nit-picky? Well, in heraldry
you have your device and your crest. The device would
be the big "H", and the crest would be the house
animals. A device is a picture in the middle, and a
crest surrounds it. <steps off soapbox> Oh, look. It's
the Saint Mungo's doctors coming to take me away.
<rocks back and forth>
 So, Cassie, there's a Draco egroup? I, heh, don't
suppose you could point me in the direction of that?
<slinks under table> heh, heh. I'm getting slightly
neurotic.
  Long live the good ship R/H!

Ginny "Come Up And See Me Some Time" Love, who is
contemplating going by something else.
---------------------------------------------------
R/H: It Just Makes Sense
H/G: Er-Have You Got A Better Idea?
H/H: Without Dreamers, It Would Be A Dull World.
----------------------------------------------------

__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 04:16:43 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 04:16:43 -0000
Subject: AD's reasoning on Nov. 1 (was Who should raise Harry)
In-Reply-To: <959iqf+ufkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95anvb+uncm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11419

I'm re-reading PS/SS this week... and thinking about Penny's "Sudden 
Thought About the Dursleys" thread.

> Monika wrote:
> 
> >Maybe Dumbledore didn't warn Hagrid about Sirius because he didn't
> >think he would meet him at the Potter's house. If you have just
> >murdered your best friends, you won't usually stay put and wait 
until the police (or the hit wizards) get you.

Amy Z responded:
> Good point.  But doesn't he need to warn him that there's still 
> someone out there who wants to kill Harry?
> 
> I guess I can accept that he just thought this way was safest.  Or 
> that he was sure the traitor, knowing that his master was unable to 
> kill Harry, wouldn't dare try it himself.  He was right about 
that.  Peter must've known, since the entire wizarding world did, 
that Harry had survived--but when V fell, instead of trying to finish 
what V had started he saved his own skin.
> 

I'm also impressed with Dumbledore's reasoning on November 1, 1981.

What do you think of the choice he made for Harry's upbringing?

It has been argued here that the Dursleys were abusive.  Child abuse 
of any form IMO is... well, I'll keep my strong opinions on that 
subject to myself.  But today I realized that it was the wise Albus 
Dumbledore that *chose* for Harry to live with the Dursleys.  (Quick 
rhetorical question--does the Hogwarts Headmaster usually function as 
the Department of Social Services equivalent in such cases?  Or is 
there a Ministry agency that usually handles such cases?)

My question--did Dumbledore make the wisest choice possible?   Did he 
make the *only* choice possible?

If there is nothing special about Harry, and if Voldemort is not evil 
incarnate in this fictional universe... why did Harry grow up in that 
cupboard under the stairs?  Wouldn't adoption by sympathetic Muggles 
have been a plausible solution?  (There are a number of Muggles who 
know about wizards anyway... think of all those parents of Muggle-
born Hogwarts students, etc.--one of my arguments against a large 
Hogwarts/wizarding world should be obvious here.)

Why did Harry have to grow up with a blood relative in the first 
place?

Why was it so important that this particular child lived?

I'm reminded of other children who were similarly protected in other 
narratives.  All of those children were *different* in some way.

Would someone who does not subscribe to the "There's Something 
Special About Harry" theories please explain away PS/SS Ch. 1?  Even 
the opening seems to foreshadow his unique status.

--Ebony





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 04:21:09 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 04:21:09 
Subject: AD's reasoning on Nov. 1 (was Who should raise Harry)
Message-ID: <F56wAQq12LRF58tP9DL00001b90@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11420

I'm re-reading PS/SS this week... and thinking about Penny's "Sudden Thought 
About the Dursleys" thread.

>Monika wrote:
>
> >Maybe Dumbledore didn't warn Hagrid about Sirius because he didn't
> >think he would meet him at the Potter's house. If you have just
> >murdered your best friends, you won't usually stay put and wait until the 
>police (or the hit wizards) get you.

Amy Z responded:
>Good point.  But doesn't he need to warn him that there's still someone out 
>there who wants to kill Harry?
>
>I guess I can accept that he just thought this way was safest.  Or that he 
>was sure the traitor, knowing that his master was unable to kill Harry, 
>wouldn't dare try it himself.  He was right about that.  Peter must've 
>known, since the entire wizarding world did, that Harry had survived--but 
>when V fell, instead of trying to finish what V had started he saved his 
>own skin.
>

I'm also impressed with Dumbledore's reasoning on November 1, 1981.

What do you think of the choice he made for Harry's upbringing?

It has been argued here that the Dursleys were abusive.  Child abuse of any 
form IMO is... well, I'll keep my strong opinions on that subject to myself. 
  But today I realized that it was the wise Albus Dumbledore that *chose* 
for Harry to live with the Dursleys.  (Quick rhetorical question--does the 
Hogwarts Headmaster usually function as the Department of Social Services 
equivalent in such cases?  Or is there a Ministry agency that usually 
handles such cases?)

My question--did Dumbledore make the wisest choice possible?   Did he make 
the *only* choice possible?

If there is nothing special about Harry, and if Voldemort is not evil 
incarnate in this fictional universe... why did Harry grow up in that 
cupboard under the stairs?  Wouldn't adoption by sympathetic Muggles have 
been a plausible solution?  (There are a number of Muggles who know about 
wizards anyway... think of all those parents of Muggle-born Hogwarts 
students, etc.--one of my arguments against a large Hogwarts/wizarding world 
should be obvious here.)

Here someone will say, "But Harry is protected at the Dursleys, since 
they're his only blood relatives."

Why did Harry have to grow up with a blood relative in the first place?

Why was it so important that this particular child lived?

I'm reminded of other children who were similarly protected in other 
narratives.  All of those children were *different* in some way.

Would someone who does not subscribe to the "There's Something Special About 
Harry" theories please explain away PS/SS Ch. 1?  Even the opening seems to 
foreshadow his unique status.

--Ebony


<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 04:38:08 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 04:38:08 
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
Message-ID: <F1333DrhVRAGMd4uzHN00001c3a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11421

>From SS, Ch. 1 (p. 11 PB)--

"The owls are nothing next to the rumors that are flying around.  You know 
what everyone's saying?  About why (Voldemort)'s disappeared?  About what 
finally stopped him?"
--McGonagall

If there's nothing special about Harry, why is the opening chapter of the 
series called "The Boy Who Lived"?  Just a creative hook?  Simply conveying 
obvious information?  Or... is there truth in advertising?

At this point, Dumbledore knows that the Potters are dead.  When answering 
Minerva, he doesn't comment on a mother's love or the power of ancient magic 
from the dawn of time.  He says...

"We can guess.  We may never know."

While his response may shoot holes into the Prophecy and Heir-of-Gryffindor 
arguments, it doesn't count as a point for the 
"Harry-as-ordinary-boy-caught-in-extraordinary-circumstances" camp, either.  
Quite the contrary.

This afternoon, I had a long talk with a parent who was introduced to Harry 
Potter this month via her son's reading SS for my class.  She's a chemist 
and is now converting her co-workers to HP mania.  Do you know what she 
talked on and on about?  Not Ron.  Not Hagrid.  Not Snape... I tried to 
engage her with the same thoughts from the thread I'm finding so 
interesting.

"There's something about Harry..." was her theme for 15 minutes.  Prompted 
by one question from me:  "How did you and your son like the book?"

My thoughts?  If JKR's point at the end is that ordinary people do 
extraordinary things in extraordinary circumstances, I buy it.

However, isn't the tale of an extraordinary kid who does ordinary things 
just as worthwhile?  *Especially* in the fantasy genre?

I'd say that Harry Potter falls into the second category.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Feb  1 04:54:34 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 23:54:34 -0500
Subject: Ron/Sirius Parallels
Message-ID: <200102010506.f1156dC04371@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11422

Kimberly wrote:
>I think though that this leaves out his personality during his teen
>years, when the comparison can best be made.  Then he *was* rather
>rash and impulsive, and easily angered.  If not, his decision to send
>Snape off to face a full-on werewolf was far more cold and cruel, and
>I don't see evidence of that tendency in him in any of the books so
>far.

I think this is a fantastic point, Kimberly.  I snipped the next bit where you 
talked about how Sirius wouldn't have had a chance to learn to curb this 
because of going to Azkaban, but I heartily consur with that as well.  I 
hadn't really thought about it the way you state above: that if Sirius wasn't 
rash, then his behavior is just downright cruel.  Granted, as Penny pointed 
out, we only know about this from Snape's POV,but still...I don't think 
there's a whole lot of room for interpretation in the act itself.  Sirius did 
send Snape to face a werewolf.  It was either incredibly stupid or incredibly 
cruel.

Kimberly again:
>You have to take into account the fact that his first instinct, as a
>kid in the MWPP days, as a young adult when James and Lily died, and
>in the events of PoA, was to seek vengeance.  That indicates to me a
>temper.  If as a grown man he's getting it under control, that just
>indicates to me that Ron will get the chance to do the same, and
>hopefully under much more normal circumstances, and more quickly.

I don't mean to keep only quoting Kimberly on this, because I think everyone 
has raised important points, but there are some things in Kimberly's post 
which I don't recall being raised before that I wanted to respond to.  It's 
pretty clear to me that Sirius was tracking down Peter for revenge; somehow I 
just don't see him handing Peter over to the Ministry.  I have been reading 
the PTSD arguments with interest, but I'm not sure I buy it.  Not that I have 
any really good reason for it; it just doesn't tally with my view of Sirius 
(not that he wouldn't be under stress, but I don't think that's all it was, 
that's all).

Kimberly once again:
>From my observation Remus is a man of thought, Sirius a man of action,
>regardless of their relative IQs or grades.

Another great observation.  I need to mull it over some more before I can say 
anything intelligent about it, however. <g>

Kimberly again:
>But if I had to boil it down to one thing that makes me think Ron and
>Sirius are a lot alike, it would be the statement Sirius made in the
>Shreiking Shack.  It seemed to me to be the most character-defining
>of his statements about himself and about the way he sees other
>people:  "Then you should have died, as we would have done for you."
>He even includes Remus and James in the statement without even
>thinking about it, just like Ron included Hermione when he said that
>Sirius would have to kill "us" too if he was going to kill Harry.
>Both not only are reflexively willing to put their lives on the line
>for their friends, they also automatically believe that their friends
>would do the same.  I don't think it was by chance that Ron made that
>statement in the same scene where Sirius made his.

This was the main reason I had to respond to this post.  I think this is a 
brilliant observation, both structurally and character-wise, and I never 
picked up on it before.  But you're right: that's what seems to set the good 
guys apart.  Which is Reason #452 why I don't believe Ron would ever go bad.

>Kimberly, who really ought to be in bed.

Yeah, shouldn't we all.  Obsession is tough, ain't it? ;)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Feb  1 04:59:09 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 23:59:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Running out of cute shipping puns!
Message-ID: <200102010511.f115BFC04904@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11423

Fresh from her refreshing visit to the R/H spa on SugarQuill island, Captain 
Kathy of the Good Ship R/H leaps back into the fray:

I wrote:
> See, crew?  They even admit it!  ;)

And Penny replied:
>"They"??  Or, Scott?  See H/H'ers -- we get maligned as a group for >the
>opinions/perceptions of one of our members.  :--)

Cause that never happens to R/H-ers, she replied sarcastically. (*And*, she 
points out, she was kidding in the first place.)

Penny again:
>Funny that two obviously very different people (me and Kathy) could
>identify so strongly with Hermione.  Makes Hermione all that much more
>interesting, doesn't it?

Well, Penny, we are both grown adults obsessing over the future love lives of 
fictional characters, so I'd venture to say we're probably more alike than 
some might think. ;)

Penny wrote:
>Is there such a thing as a "nice healthy fear" of your
>partner/mate/love-of-your-life?  Not in a Calm marriage (IMO).

I meant more that Ron has a nice healthy fear of what she thinks (although he 
doesn't know it yet).  Her opinion matters to him.

>Too many rules/regulations!  I'll just stay aboard the low-key, >Freedom
>of Speech is always tolerated Cruiseliner H/H -- thanks.  :--)

You know, perceptions really are everything, I guess.  Having traveled in some 
H/H circles myself, I can say with all honesty that I never especially felt 
such a "Freedom of Speech" thing going on. . . but then, I wound up defecting 
and rising to captaincy (is that a word?) of the R/H, so I guess that says 
something.  (Not sure what, but something.)

Penny:
>When?  When did she spend this time with Ron?  From what we see in >GoF,
>she ate all her meals with Harry, she walked to classes with Harry, >she
>sat in classes with Harry (or occasionally between the two of them >early
>on in the fight), they studied in the library together, they went to
>Hogsmeade together .... in short, I see very little opportunity for >any
>Ron time.

And, yet, somehow, according to your very own post, she managed to tell Ron 
"several times" that Harry didn't put his name into the Goblet.  When , if she 
didn't spend any time with him?

Penny again:
>Let's see this HGTG cliche is *bad* in the R/H world, but the sappy
>OBHWF cliche is perfectly fine?  :--)

Actually, I myself have posted several times on why I think the OBHWF theory, 
while appealing, is unlikely.  And I do agree that both Harry and Hermione are 
already part of the family.  As Kelley has already pointed out, JKR could 
certainly do OBHWF without succumbing to clich?.  No doubt JKR could do the 
HGTG clich? with as much freshness as she could do OBHWF or any clich?, for 
that matter.  I just hope not, because it wouldn't ring true to how I see the 
story. (I hear tell that one or two people see it differently, though. <g>)

Penny again:
>My perception is that the R/H camp seems quite bent on being sure Ron
>receives *no* criticism of any kind (while liberally dishing it out to
>the other characters I might add).  Is this zero-tolerance policy
>sanctioned by the leadership of the Good Ship R/H?

While aboard our ship it is (and on SugarQuill Island).  Just curious, where 
do you see this unfair criticism being dished out by the R/H crowd?  The only 
thing I can think of you are referring to is the strong anti-Draco stance.  
(But come on, he did say he wanted Hermione to die, you can't really expect 
him to be popular, can you?)  Anyway, the point is, R/H-ers tend to be very 
protective of Ron.  He's our guy.  In the past, H/H-ers have made some very 
anti-Ron statements.  Anyone is, of course, free to say whatever they want 
about any of the characters.  Just don't expect us to like it or agree with 
you.  The SugarQuill is a private resort, so to speak; Zsenya and Arabella can 
feed heretics to the sharks there if they want (OK, so this metaphor is going 
a little overboard, but you know what I mean!)  The Good Ship R/H is happy to 
share waters with other ships; just don't come aboard and start 
Weasley-bashing, because that'll tick us off.  In the meantime, I won't go 
aboard the SS H/H and start telling you how boring I find Harry (I'll just 
shout it to you from across the waters <g>).  Bottom line is, if you're happy 
on your ship, no one's forcing you to visit other ones.  But if do go 
visiting, be nice and follow local custom.:)


Amy Z wrote:
>Anyone think that Molly is ticked at Hermione not only for throwing
>over Harry dear, but also for not tumbling to the fact that Molly's
>Ronnikins loves her?  (Mothers have a talent for knowing we like
>someone before we even know it ourselves.)

Actually, you may be surprised to hear that no, I don't think this is the 
case.  (What? Did Kathy just say that?)  Actually I'm not sure that Molly does 
realize Ron's feelings; I think she's much more concerned about Harry.  I 
think Molly underestimates Ron as much as the H/H camp does.  But that's 
another thread.


Kimberly wrote to Penny:
>Wow,
>You may have a Calm relationship with your hubby, but I think you and
>Kathy are a few steps into the Volatile category!  :D

Oh, dear, Penny, we just have to make sure we don't slide into Dysfunction!

Cassie said:
>I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has feeling
>for Ginny -- if anything he pretty consciously shuts her out of the
>Trio); as for G/H, although it is blindingly obvious that Ginny likes
>Harry, I'm not sure what significance to gift that with.

And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that doesn't stop people 
from believing in H/H either.

Scott wrote:
>--But what if I think that Ron WILL turn bad and betray Harry. Ok I
>don't think that it's a given, but it COULD play out.  After GoF I
>can see the seed there. Not that Ron isn't Harry's friend as much as
>he was, but their fight, well it was totally uncalled for. I mean it
>doesn't even make sense that Harry would have put his name in the
>goblet. Hermione believed Harry. Does she trust Harry more, or am I
>missing the concept?

There was a time when I actually thought it possible that Ron might betray 
Harry, but after rereading the books more, I just don't see it.  He's far too 
protective of Harry and willing to sacrifice for him.  The Chess game in SS/PS 
has been hashed over endlessly, but what struck me recently were the scenes in 
PoA Ron pushes Harry out of the way when the dog attacks (Ron doesn't know 
about Sirius yet of course) and the way he stands up for him in the Shrieking 
Shack ("You'll have to kill all 3 of us!).  I just can't see someone who cares 
about his friend that much betraying him.  It just doesn't tally with Ron's 
character at all, IMO.

That said, I must say with reluctance that I think it far more likely (and it 
pains me greatly to say this) that Ron will not make it to the end of Book 7 
alive.  We have already seen a few instances where he willingly "sacrificed" 
himself for Harry, and I suspect there's some foreshadowing there.  (And also 
very poignantly in the fact that Ron was the thing Harry would miss the most.)
 I am hoping against hope that this scenario does not play out, because I 
would be devastated personally, much more so than if Harry died. It doesn't 
bear thinking about.

Parker said:
>There has also been, in this shipper debate a lot of talk about how
>Ron is always the one defending Hermione.  Harry does too, guys!
>Again, it's in GoF and it's what causes Hermione's teeth to grow.
>Draco (as usual) says something sarcastic about Hermione and Harry
>hexes him.  Draco hexes Harry and Goyle and Hermione end up being
>hexed instead.

I must respectfully disagree here.  The passage following Draco calling 
Hermione a Mudblood reads:
"Some of the anger Harry had been feeling for days and days seemed to burst 
through a dam in his chest.  He had reached for his wand before he'd thought 
what he was doing" (GoF, UK ed, p. 262).  
To me, this indicates that Harry was taking out a lot of the tension he had 
been feeling on Malfoy.  Not to say that he wasn't genuinely angry that Malfoy 
insulted Hermione, but to me it read more like an excuse to let out his anger 
than a genuine defense of Hermione.  (And I might point out that Ron is the 
one who hurries forward to check on Hermione.)

I am still fascinated by all the differing perspectives here!  Well, that's 
what keeps it interesting!

Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From yesanotherone7 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 05:59:19 2001
From: yesanotherone7 at yahoo.com (yesanotherone7 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 05:59:19 -0000
Subject: HTGT and OBHWF
Message-ID: <95atvn+e9pk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11424

My name is Wendy and I'm new to these boards.  I don't plan on posting 
much, I'm mainly just a lurker.  I enjoy reading the imput, I only 
have one question, I have heard refrences to HTGT and OBHWF.  What do 
these terms mean?








From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Feb  1 07:00:45 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 07:00:45 -0000
Subject: The Death of Cedric
In-Reply-To: <955dnq+hgi3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95b1it+mmmv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11425

> 
> In the long run Jo Rowling IS more invested in the characters than 
we 
> are, like it or not! (She is the one to breath life into them after 
> all.) That, when it boils down to it, is most likely why she was so 
> affected. Maybe I'm not invested in the characters enough to me 
moved 
> to tears by the death of Cedric.  
> 
> Would anyone like to point out why the death of Cedric was or was 
not 
> needed to forward the plot?
> 
> Scott

Scott, I haven't read responses, so here's mine...

After reading the book 7 times, I still am not as emotionally upset
by Cedric's death as JKR is......BUT I think the key here is the
speech Albus Dumbledore makes at the end of the book....the reality 
of Voldemort..he killed our friend because he got in the way...the 
time I got most emotional was the scene with Cedric's parents.....

And the scene where Cedric turns his back on my glory than Hufflepuff 
has seen in generations...with a set gaze..

Wonderful..and then Voldemort kills him.

Now I'm getting emotional.

Susan




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Feb  1 07:18:05 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 07:18:05 -0000
Subject: ships, Ron, etc.
In-Reply-To: <200102010511.f115BFC04904@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <95b2jd+g4u0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11428

 
Kelly wrote: And, yet, somehow, according to your very own post, she 
managed to tell Ron  "several times" that Harry didn't put his name 
into the Goblet.  When , if she  didn't spend any time with him?

One scene in GoF that has always struck me is the scene (in my book 
page 331, I believe) when Hermione and Harry go to Hogsmeade, Harry 
wearing the invisibility cloak, and together they go to the Three 
Broomsticks. Ron is in the 3 Broomsticks already, having a good time 
with Seamus and Dean. There's Hermione, to all intents and purposes 
completely alone, since Harry is invisible, and Ron doesn't even 
bother to come up and say hello to her. <eg> I now realize this 
belongs in the "Ron is oh so much more sensitive to Hermione's 
feelings than Harry" thread, but oh well. (Truth be told, I don't 
think either of them is all that sensitive -- they're teenage boys -- 
not a demographic known for its empathy. But I don't believe Ron is 
more sensitive than Harry.)
To return to the topic at hand, it sounded to me in GoF like Hermione 
tried to tell Ron several times *initially* that Harry didn't put his 
name in the Goblet. It sounded like she then gave up since Ron 
obviously wasn't listening, and chose to spend her time with Harry 
instead.

> 
> Penny again:
> >My perception is that the R/H camp seems quite bent on being sure 
Ron receives *no* criticism of any kind (while liberally dishing it 
out to the other characters I might add).  Is this zero-tolerance 
policy sanctioned by the leadership of the Good Ship R/H?


Kelly: While aboard our ship it is (and on SugarQuill Island).  Just 
curious, where  > do you see this unfair criticism being dished out 
by the R/H crowd?  (SNIP)Anyway, the point is, R/H-ers tend to be 
very  protective of Ron.  He's our guy.  In the past, H/H-ers have 
made some very  anti-Ron statements.  Anyone is, of course, free to 
say whatever they want  about any of the characters.  Just don't 
expect us to like it or agree with  > you.  The SugarQuill is a 
private resort, so to speak; Zsenya and Arabella can  feed heretics 
to the sharks there if they want (OK, so this metaphor is going  a 
little overboard, but you know what I mean!)  The Good Ship R/H is 
happy to   share waters with other ships; just don't come aboard and 
start   Weasley-bashing, because that'll tick us off.  In the 
meantime, I won't go  aboard the SS H/H and start telling you how 
boring I find Harry (I'll just  shout it to you from across the 
waters <g>).  Bottom line is, if you're happy  on your ship, no one's 
forcing you to visit other ones.  But if do go  visiting, be nice and 
follow local custom.:)

But I don't actually think Penny would mind if you did come aboard 
the H/H and announce Harry was boring (which actually I think you 
have, over on the PoU list -- it could be considered an H/H haven, 
since all the listmoms are H/H.) It's your business if you find Harry 
boring (although suffering through a series of books about him, from 
his POV, must be tedious for you.) Wheras I got the distinct 
impression from your posts and Zsenya's that even the suggestion that 
one thinks that it might be maybe possible for Ron to go to the dark 
side or betray his friends will get one booted from Sugarquill. Maybe 
I'm misunderstanding and I apologize if I am, but that was the clear 
impression that I got -- that even a thoughtful and well-reasoned 
argument as to why Ron might make the wrong sort of life choices or 
even the wrong sort of wardrobe choices ("Ron would never wear 
yellow!") will get one harpooned and tossed over the side of the boat 
ASAP. There's a middle ground between Weasley-bashing and utter Ron-
worship, and I get the feeling that even that middle ground wouldn't 
be tolerated. Again, I've only visited Sugarquill once, and 
*extremely* briefly, so I apologize if the impression I got from the 
site and the posts here was the wrong one, but that was it.

> 
> Cassie said:
> >I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has feeling
> >for Ginny 
> 
Kelly: And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that doesn't 
stop people  from believing in H/H either.

And I see no evidence that Hermione likes Ron, but that doesn't stop 
people from believing in R/H.

<g>

Kelly: That said, I must say with reluctance that I think it far more 
likely (and it  pains me greatly to say this) that Ron will not make 
it to the end of Book 7  alive.  We have already seen a few instances 
where he willingly "sacrificed"  himself for Harry, and I suspect 
there's some foreshadowing there.  (And also  very poignantly in the 
fact that Ron was the thing Harry would miss the most.)  I am hoping 
against hope that this scenario does not play out, because I   would 
be devastated personally, much more so than if Harry died. It 
doesn't   bear thinking about.

<g> I wonder if this death-prediction thing is an indicator of who 
our favorite characters are? Well, of course it is. I worry all the 
time that something will happen to Harry, that he will die in the end 
of Book 7, wheras I remain convinced that Ron will survive, probably 
because I wouldn't mind as much if he didn't. <eg> (As much, people. 
I didn't say I wouldn't mind at all. I don't hate Ron, he's just 
maybe 8th on my list, that's all.)

Cassie




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Feb  1 08:41:46 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:41:46 -0000
Subject: Is Draco Redeemable? + Draco/Snape relationship
In-Reply-To: <20010131060338.2693.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <95b7ga+couk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11429

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Teek <purdymango1 at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- Sister Mary Lunatic <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> > How's Draco going to feel about Voldemort if someone HE cares 
about
> > gets zapped by Lord V? What if Lucius starts getting grandiose 
> > ideas and Voldemort squashes him?  (Don't really see that 
> > happening.)  What if Crabbe's or Goyle's father were to cross 
> > Voldemort and get eliminated?
> 
> I think that if anyone who Draco "cares about" was to be hurt by
> Voldemort, it would be Snape. (see below) Voldemort does not
> generally forgive those who abandon him, and any death eater who has
> been exposed as Dumbledore's "valuable spy" would be, in my opinion,
> first on Voldemort's list of "people to kill off most unpleasantly."
> He seems very concerned about the people who abandoned him, but has
> been letting Snape get away with turning away willfully, unless I'm
> missing a detail that shows Voldemort doesn't know Snape's gone
> traitor. It's another of Voldemort's blind spots that he hasn't
> killed Snape already. (Of course, from a literary point of view,
> Snape can't die, he's a crucial character.) I think that later in 
the
> books, though, Snape will be either killed or made to suffer 
greatly.
> I think Harry is becoming aware of Snape's buried morality, despite
> his outer hatred of Harry... I would like to see a future scene in
> which Harry has to risk his neck for a teacher who he hates.
> 

Oh, goodness, any goodness of Draco is the fantasy of someone other 
than JKR (with respect to those who read fanfic it's just not there 
in the books)

Snape is mentioned by Voldemort as someone who has left him forever..
Snape is at HOGWARTS under the personal protection of Albus 
Dumbledore, and Voldemort cannot touch him...only Hogwarts is safe...

Susan




From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Thu Feb  1 08:54:47 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:54:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (OT) English as a second Language 
Message-ID: <01c08c2c$a120b9a0$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11430

>This just made me think 
>about what an accomplishment it is for people to learn english as 
>their second language an still be so proficent in it. (I know we've 
>discussed this before but-) I truly salute you!
>
>Scott


Thank you, Scott! I feel flattered :-)

Monika Z.




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Feb  1 11:26:52 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:26:52 -0000
Subject: pronunciation guide
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOECDDCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 11433

Heidi wrote: "The website at http://www.scholastci.com/harrypotter has the
pronunciation guide which shows it pronounced the exact same way Steve's
Lexicon shows it - which means of course, that Steve is right."

I am going to argue here with the reasoning. I am not going to disagree with
the suggested pronunciations of Draco - I have no real feeling about that
matter.

In the Scholastic guide you get Voldemort (silent t) and I believe Dale uses
the same pronunciation in his readings of the books. Fry uses Voldemort
(with the t pronounced). This gives us an apparent conflict. One of these
has to be wrong (maybe both are wrong). Just because the Scholastic guide
has one pronunciation does not mean that it is right.

Jo has apparently agreed with the Fry pronunciations (in the Radio Times
Christmas edition there were comments about Jo liking Fry's readings and
agreeing with them), but I bet there is some interview in which a similar
comment is made about the Dale recordings.

So how do we know that the Scholastic guide is right? We don't. Or do we put
this down to the American editions being not only having words changed in
the written format, but also in the audio format?


Simon
--
IDENTITY - See Yourself in a New Light
"The greatest miricale is not that man stood on the moon; it is that God
came and stood in the Earth."
- Col. James Irwin





From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Feb  1 13:16:08 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 07:16:08 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Ron and the various ships
References: <95b2jd+g4u0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A796198.119A0297@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11434

Hi --

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> Kelly wrote: And, yet, somehow, according to your very own post, she
> managed to tell Ron  "several times" that Harry didn't put his name
> into the Goblet.  When , if she  didn't spend any time with him?

> Cassie said:
> To return to the topic at hand, it sounded to me in GoF like Hermione
> tried to tell Ron several times *initially* that Harry didn't put his
> name in the Goblet. It sounded like she then gave up since Ron
> obviously wasn't listening, and chose to spend her time with Harry
> instead.

I think Kathy made the original point (rather than Kelly) so I'm
changing Cassie's references to Kathy -- but Cassie's response is
exactly what mine would have been.  I don't think I said "several"
times, but I do think she tried to do some go-between mediating early on
in the fight.  When it became apparent that neither of them were
listening, she chose to spend her time with Harry.  I still think that
Hermione spent virtually all her time with Harry during this fight --
after the initial mediation attempts failed -- I can't imagine when she
might have had any chance to be with Ron otherwise given that she was
with Harry at meal-times, in between classes, during classes, etc.

My main point is: she told Harry point-blank that Ron was jealous.  It
seems obvious to me that she must, at some point (probably breakfast
before she ever saw Harry), have tried to tell Ron that it was "obvious"
Harry didn't enter himself into the tournament.  Ron obviously didn't
listen at all (just like Harry shrugged aside her comments about Ron's
jealousy).  Maybe I'm wrong though -- maybe she never said a word to Ron
about it.  But, it seems unlikely given what we know of Hermione.  But,
whatever she said, I think she said it early-on ... as the fight wore
on, she spent her time with Harry.  Neither Ron nor Harry cared too much
about the other persons' feelings IMO.  But, I still maintain that Ron's
position is the more distasteful (IMHO anyway).

> Cassie again: But I don't actually think Penny would mind if you did
> come aboard the H/H and announce Harry was boring (which actually I
> think you
> have, over on the PoU list -- it could be considered an H/H haven,
> since all the listmoms are H/H.) It's your business if you find Harry
> boring (although suffering through a series of books about him, from
> his POV, must be tedious for you.)

That's correct.  I wouldn't mind -- everyone is entitled to their
opinion.  Like Cassie, I don't know what appeal the series has for you
if Harry is such a boring character.  But, that's just my take on it.
<g>

> Wheras I got the distinct impression from your posts and Zsenya's that
> even the suggestion that one thinks that it might be maybe possible
> for Ron to go to the dark side or betray his friends will get one
> booted from Sugarquill. <snip of very funny Cassie comment> There's a
> middle ground between Weasley-bashing and utter Ron-worship, and I get
> the feeling that even that middle ground wouldn't be tolerated. Again,
> I've only visited Sugarquill once, and *extremely* briefly, so I
> apologize if the impression I got from the site and the posts here was
> the wrong one, but that was it.

Thanks Cassie!  There's definitely a middle-ground, and that's where I
fall.  I don't think it qualifies as "Weasley-bashing" to consider the
theoretical possibility that Ron's jealous insecurity & obvious desire
for wealth and recognition might make him a very vulnerable target for
Voldemort & the dark side.  But, anything short of "Ron would *never*
betray his friend Harry, not under *any* circumstances" seems to be
labelled as "Weasley-bashing."

Kathy asked about my comment that criticism gets dished out liberally to
other characters by R/H types who simultaneously refuse to hear any bad
words about Ron.  Actually, Kathy my original post didn't say it was
"unfair" criticism -- I was just noting that R/H types don't have any
problem criticizing other characters but they seem to fairly bristle at
the slightest criticism of Ron.  This criticism that gets dished out to
the other characters from R/H types extends not only to Harry
(everything from boring to inconsiderate/selfish) and Hermione (bossy
know-it-all hen-pecking shrew, who nonetheless "should" be paired up
with Ron (inexplicably)) but also to Sirius and a wide variety of other
characters.  I know I can be touchy about Hermione, but I usually
support what I'm saying with reasoned arguments from the canon (as to
why she isn't bossy still, etc.) or at least that's my intent.  Don't
get me wrong: it's perfectly fine for people to think Harry is selfish
or Hermione is bossy & to post their reasons why.  But, I just don't
understand why *any* criticism of Ron should be met with such emotional
"how dare you" reactions from people.

> Cassie said:
> > >I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has feeling
>
> > >for Ginny
> >
> Kathy: And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that doesn't
> stop people  from believing in H/H either.
>
> Cassie: And I see no evidence that Hermione likes Ron, but that
> doesn't stop people from believing in R/H.
>
> <g>

Thanks Cassie!  <eg>

> There was a time when I actually thought it possible that Ron might betray
> Harry, but after rereading the books more, I just don't see it.  He's far
> too protective of Harry and willing to sacrifice for him.  The Chess game in
> SS/PS has been hashed over endlessly, but what struck me recently were the scenes
> in PoA Ron pushes Harry out of the way when the dog attacks (Ron doesn't know
> about Sirius yet of course) and the way he stands up for him in the
> Shrieking Shack ("You'll have to kill all 3 of us!).  I just can't see someone who
> cares about his friend that much betraying him.  It just doesn't tally with Ron's
> character at all, IMO.
>
I don't necessarily see it as an intentional knowing betrayal at all.  I
just think Ron has the potential to be blinded by his desire for wealth
& fame to the point of unwittingly falling into a trap set by Voldy &
his death-eaters.  ::::shrugs::::  It's a *possibility* in my mind.

The only theory I have for a "knowing" betrayal of Harry by Ron has to
do with Hermione.  If Hermione does like Harry and rejects Ron (and
tells him why), and if Ron were to even mis-interpret Harry's reaction
or feelings - that sort of jealousy might lead him to take rash actions
(actions that *could* happen at the exact wrong time).  I don't think
this is as likely though as the unwitting betrayal scenario laid out
above.

> Cassie said: <g> I wonder if this death-prediction thing is an
> indicator of who our favorite characters are? Well, of course it is. I
> worry all the time that something will happen to Harry, that he will
> die in the end of Book 7, wheras I remain convinced that Ron will
> survive, probably
> because I wouldn't mind as much if he didn't. <eg> (As much, people.
> I didn't say I wouldn't mind at all. I don't hate Ron, he's just
> maybe 8th on my list, that's all.)

That's about where he falls on my list too.  And, I agree about the
death prediction hypothesis too.  I'm much more concerned about Harry
and Hermione than Ron.  I'm also terribly concerned for Sirius (who is
probably #3 or #4 on my list).

> Parker said:
> >There has also been, in this shipper debate a lot of talk about how
> >Ron is always the one defending Hermione.  Harry does too, guys!
> >Again, it's in GoF and it's what causes Hermione's teeth to grow.
> >Draco (as usual) says something sarcastic about Hermione and Harry
> >hexes him.  Draco hexes Harry and Goyle and Hermione end up being
> >hexed instead.
>
> Kathy said: I must respectfully disagree here.  The passage following Draco calling
> Hermione a Mudblood reads:
> "Some of the anger Harry had been feeling for days and days seemed to burst
> through a dam in his chest.  He had reached for his wand before he'd
> thought what he was doing" (GoF, UK ed, p. 262).
> To me, this indicates that Harry was taking out a lot of the tension he had
> been feeling on Malfoy.  Not to say that he wasn't genuinely angry that
> Malfoy insulted Hermione, but to me it read more like an excuse to let out his
> anger than a genuine defense of Hermione.  (And I might point out that Ron is the
> one who hurries forward to check on Hermione.)
>
And Ron never reacts (or defends Hermione) because of pent-up anger?
<g>  Sorry, but I agree with Parker -- Harry was clearly defending
Hermione in this scene.  Ron rushed toward Hermione while Harry was
still "engaged in battle" so to speak.  "Harry *turned* and saw Ron
dragging Hermione's hand away from her face ...."  It's not as if Harry
just vented his anger and didn't bother to see what happened to Hermione
after all was said & done.  Ron reacted quickly -- before the "duel" was
even over really.  Harry didn't have a chance to be the one to rush to
her side.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 13:23:48 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:23:48 -0000
Subject: Eagle Owl (was RE: Chapter 28 Summary)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEGLCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <95bo14+5ubh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11435

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

>The eagle owl, I think, was sent to Barty Crouch Jr (Moody)at 
Hogwarts,
>telling him that Barty Crouch Senior had escaped.  It alerted 
Crouch/Moody
>to keep an eye out for his father's appearance, and allow Junior to 
capture
>and kill his father in the Forbidden Forest after Viktor and Harry 
found
>him. (That's my opinion, anyway...)

I thought this too, but I checked and it seems to be too early.  
Crouch says in "Veritaserum" that he got word his father had escaped 
and then Crouch Sr. appeared on the grounds a week later (so, owl ~May 
17, murder ~May 24, one month before the last task).  Mentions of time 
throughout "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" make it clear that there are at 
least a few weeks between Harry's seeing the eagle owl and the 
appearance of Crouch Sr.

Eagle owls have associations with Draco and Voldemort though, as 
others have said, so maybe it is a clue that someone at Hogwarts is 
doing something with the Dark Side--e.g. communicating with V.

Karin, thanks for noting the owl in the first place.  It went right by 
me unnoticed every time I read it.  Maybe it was wearing an 
Invisibility Cloak?

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
Asleep was the way Harry liked the Dursleys best.
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 13:31:03 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:31:03 -0000
Subject: Sirius out to kill Peter?  (was Ron/Sirius parallels)
In-Reply-To: <959tqt+4fur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95boen+tj0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11436

Kimberly wrote:

  But even if I 
>got that wrong, as I understand it Sirius wasn't much of a suspect 
>before Pettigrew created the scene, cried out that he'd betrayed 
James 
>and Lily and then was 'killed' by him.

I couldn't find clear proof that Sirius's original intent was to kill 
Peter--if he even knew his own intent in the haze of rage, guilt, and 
grief.  He did need to clear his name, because although he wasn't a 
suspect in most people's eyes (even after this incident, according to 
Fudge, most of the wizarding world just thought he was a mass murderer 
and a Death Eater--they didn't know the James/Lily end of the story) 
he knew Dumbledore thought he was their Secret-Keeper, so he knew he'd 
be accused of betraying them.

But *whatever* was motivating Sirius re: Peter at that moment, we know 
that twelve years later he does fully intend to kill him, and--to 
get to my point--he's not the only one.  Sirius and Remus are both 
prepared to kill Peter in cold blood: not turn him in to the 
Dementors, not turn him in to the Ministry for trial.  If we want to 
say that there's something wrong with Sirius in doing this, we have to 
say it about Remus too (Remus to Peter:  "you should have realized, if 
Voldemort didn't kill you, we would").

Dear, dear.  What's a Lupin-loving would-be-pacifist like me to do?

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
 "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
                   --HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 13:37:04 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:37:04 -0000
Subject: Unsappiness (was R/H, H/G,...)
In-Reply-To: <95a6go+j0q5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95boq0+ahsl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11437

Kelley wrote:

<lots of good stuff) To me, these situations were handled with 
a minimum of sap, so I'm thinking that if big-happy-family is where 
this will all end up, JKR certainly won't choose that time to go 
heavy on the saccharine. <lots more good stuff>

Right on, Kelley.

Lots of H/Hers don't want to see R/H because OBHWF (that's One Big 
Happy Weasley Family, newbies) is too sappy/cliched.

Lots of R/Hers don't want to see H/H because HGTG (Hero Gets the Girl) 
is too sappy/cliched.

Fear not, shippers and sap-o-phobes of all descriptions!  Let us go 
boldly forth in the faith that our Jo will resist cliche, whatever 
romances happen or fail to happen.  We can all relax and enjoy this 
cruise and know that she'll write whatever she writes with 
that witching combination of unpredictability and inevitability that 
she's brought to so many twists *and* emotional scenes so far.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"But won't they notice if you shut your ears in the oven door?"
"Dobby doubts it, sir."
                    --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
-----------------------------------------------------------------




From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Thu Feb  1 13:55:58 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:55:58 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
Message-ID: <01c08c56$b3f30c20$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11438


>How far does/did Voldemort's Reign of Terror extend?  Was it just the UK
that experienced the dark times?  Or did Europe also have problems with
Death Eaters?  Did other countries even know what was going on?  I know all
of this is pure conjecture - I don't recall there being anything mentioned
about Voldemort being feared around the world.
>
Just one small thing comes to my mind - Bulgarian Minister of Magic is
clearly impressed and excited when he meets Harry. That might mean he knows
enough about fight with Voldemort to recognize Harry by his scar.  But, of
course, it doesn't show what an average Bulgarian wizard knows about Voldie.

Monika Z.


>If Voldemort fled to the Albanian forest where he would be safe, does that
mean that the area is more tolerant of evil megalomaniacs?  If I remember
correctly, the giants also went to Europe to escape the ministry after
Voldemort's downfall.  And Durmstang (sp) (the school that actually teaches
the Dark Arts) is rumored to be in Northern Europe.
>
>What about the Salem Institute (sorry, I can't remember the full name and
my books and notes are at home).  Are they even aware of what's going on?
They were at the World Cup, so they would have at least seen what happened,
unless they left early.  How about other schools and wizard communities?
Would they offer help?  Or is Voldemort considered to be an internal problem
that the UK wizards have to take care themselves.
>
>All of this started running through my head last night while I was trying
to fall asleep and I was wondering if it had been discussed at all.  I'd be
curious to hear what everyone else thinks.
>
>Amy
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
>website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>





From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 13:56:19 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:56:19 -0000
Subject: Is Draco Redeemable?  (was Re: The Death of Cedric)
In-Reply-To: <3A78B4F1.FADE7731@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <95bpu3+8uvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11439

Heidi:" Over the past few days, we've had a lot of posts from people 
saying "Snape may not be so bad - we only see him through Harry's 
eyes!" and the like. Well, it's the same for Draco - other than the 
one scene in CoS where, admittedly, he acts a little sociopathic - 
we've only seen him through Harry's eyes."

How would the scene on the Hogwarts Express at the end of GoF look 
different from someone else's PoV? the one where he taunts the Trio 
about the Dark Lord's rebirth and Cedric's murder?  "Mudbloods and 
Muggle-lovers first!"




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Feb  1 14:06:37 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:06:37 -0000
Subject: pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOECDDCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <95bqhd+tlhc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11440

Greetings & felicitations:


> So how do we know that the Scholastic guide is right? We don't. Or 
do we put
> this down to the American editions being not only having words 
changed in
> the written format, but also in the audio format?

It seems to me that different people in both the Wizarding and Muggle 
worlds would just pronounce Draco differently, depending on their 
background. That's the way it is with a lot of words, obviously. With 
that logic, we CAN'T know for sure, even with the Scholastic guide, 
the audio tapes, etc. The only way to be sure would be to hear Draco 
or his family actually say it, which can't happen because, well, 
they're book characters. The next best thing would be to hear JKR say 
it. I know that Jim Dale consults with her on things like this, so 
one could argue that his pronunciations are as correct as we're 
likely to get. Unless, of course, he never ASKED her about that one, 
then we're stuck (and we have no way of knowing). So basically, what 
I need to do is to put a note on my Pronunciations page noting that 
I'm giving the pronunciations from the Jim Dale tapes, but that there 
are plenty of variations out there which are just as "correct" as the 
ones I have.

And I took years and years of Latin, so I pronounce "draco" 
and "draconis" in a Latin phrase as DRAH-ko and drah-KO-nis. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has lots of other things besides pronunciations
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From alw at wilsonllp.com  Thu Feb  1 14:07:25 2001
From: alw at wilsonllp.com (Amy)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:07:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Draco Redeemable?  (was Re: The Death of Cedric)
References: <95bpu3+8uvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009801c08c59$b48818d0$3d1fa8c0@chamblee>

No: HPFGUIDX 11441

Jim wrote:

How would the scene on the Hogwarts Express at the end of GoF look 
different from someone else's PoV? the one where he taunts the Trio 
about the Dark Lord's rebirth and Cedric's murder?  "Mudbloods and 
Muggle-lovers first!"

I love the idea of scenes being told from someone other than Harry's viewpoint.  It makes a lot of sense that most of what we read in the books is slightly skewed because they're events viewed through the eyes of a boy.  However..."Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first!" really can't be viewed any other way than Draco being "racist" (I don't think that's exactly the right word, but I couldn't come up with another -ist).  Yes, his views have probably been molded by his father and I'm not saying that he he can't be redeemed (in fact, I think he probably will be, but it's something he's going to have to discover himself), but as he is in GoF...he's all for Voldemort's return and would buy tickets to see the mudbloods and muggle lovers tortured and killed.

JMO...Amy





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cad2 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 14:29:21 2001
From: cad2 at hotmail.com (cad2 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:29:21 -0000
Subject: Suggestion to decrease the volume
In-Reply-To: <95amq4+g3as@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95brs1+unk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11442

I belong to (far too) many lists on yahoogroups and elsewhere.  Once 
the list gets to a  certain size, the moderators usually set down 
some "large list" rules like not responding to a post with one 
word "Exactly!" or "Me, too!" etc...  For those who might read digest 
mode, its extrememly difficult to wade through dozens of posts where 
90% is quoted material from another lister and 10% is original 
thought.  

THis list generates more volume than a list I belong to with 2500 
other people. 

Just thinking out loud...
_______________________
> May I humbly dissent?  If you can't handle the volume, try 
switching 
> to digest mode.  Then you'll get a table of contents with each 
digest 
> and you can skim one digest, focusing on the meat that interests 
you, 
> much more quickly than you can read 25 separate messages. I skim 
most 
> of the shipper stuff myself, but there are nuggets of gold in there 
> sometimes and I don't want to miss them.
> 
> marvin





From Jeremy.Welsh at udapgh.com  Thu Feb  1 14:39:51 2001
From: Jeremy.Welsh at udapgh.com (Jeremy Welsh)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:39:51 -0500
Subject: Quidditch Rules Question
Message-ID: <sa792efd.046@groupware.udapgh.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11443

Hello all.
     The other day, after thinking about Quidditch for some reason, a question popped into my head that I actually had when I first started reading the books.  I just checked out the Lexicon, hoping to find a listing of the Quidditch rules, but I couldn't seem to find them.  If these rules exist anywhere on-line, I apologize for wasting bandwidth, but I didn't find them. 
     My question is this: How does a team actually win a Quidditch match?  Here is my understanding: throughout the match, Chasers attempt to score goals with the Quaffles; while this is going on, the Seekers from each team are on a hunt for the Golden Snitch.  If the Snitch is caught, that team automatically receives 150 points, and the game is over - usually 150 points is enough to win the game.  But what happens if the Seeker accidentally catches the Snitch while they are losing by 151 points?
     And please pardon my forgetfulness (if this indeed happen), but did something like this happen with Krum?  I don't have the Goblet of Fire in front of me right now, so I can't consult.

Thanks much!


jeremy welsh

"I call Architecture frozen Music."
     -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, (1749-1832)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 14:44:00 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:44:00 -0000
Subject: Draco redeemable? (was Draco and Rufus Johnson)
In-Reply-To: <004901c08c00$405e89c0$c8c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <95bsng+hhs0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11444

CM wrote:

>Is Draco redeemable? That's like asking if Rufus Johnson is 
redeemable.

Interesting parallel.  Well, is he?

To continue the parallel, I would say O'Connor is more interested in 
Sheppard's redeemability than Johnson's.  So is there a Sheppard in 
HP?  Someone who trusts too far, probably as an expression of his 
self-loathing and ambition?  Uh-oh, I see a hazy shape in my crystal 
ball . . . long, white hair . . . half-moon specs . . . 

Nah.

Dragging this back to matters Draconian:

That last scene in GF definitely establishes, if we weren't sure 
already, that Draco is way worse than a school bully or petty bigot.  
I'd be disappointed if he turned around just because of one incident. 
 (Being saved by Harry might create interesting dynamics, but it's too 
much like James/Snape.  Give us a new story!)

The fact is, though, that even Nazis are redeemable.  I was just 
reading up on a man who was a passionate activist for an Aryan 
supremacy group for 15 years* and now works for the Simon Wiesenthal 
Center (Los Angeles group that monitors racism and anti-Semitism).  If 
JKR has set herself the challenge of showing what can make a little 
Nazi turn around, I take my hat off to her.  And I look forward to 
seeing how it happens.

Amy Z

*Despite his family's being Catholic, his mother's being disabled, and 
his brother's being a cop--making them all candidates for 
"elimination" in his group's grand scheme.  Draco doesn't even have 
these motivations to see the other side; everything in his upbringing 
tells him he'd be on top in a world ruled by Voldemort.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 14:50:46 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:50:46 -0000
Subject: Totally OT: Death of the Little Princes
In-Reply-To: <95am85+qrqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95bt46+4lme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11445

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., msl at f... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> > 
> >  On the contrary - Richard III - at least the evil literary 
Richard 
> > III  of the Elizabethan stage - needed to get the little princes 
> > out of the way just as surely as Voldemort needed to dispense with 
> > the Potters *pere et fils*.
> > As long as the princes - the sons of the late king Edward IV - 
> > remained alive, Richard's claim to the throne remained clouded, 
> > since he was appointed to serve as their regent (the princes were 
> > then 12 and 10 years old IIRC) until they reached an age to rule 
on 
> > their own.
> > 
> 
> Hrm, quite right.  I wonder what I was cluing in on...

The illegitimacy of the princes, which if true, gave Richard the 
throne.  He didn't need to kill them if they (or even their father) 
didn't have a legitimate claim to the throne.

This is a very simplified version.  See the link CM gave if you're 
really interested in the history.  Or read The Daughter of Time if 
you'd prefer it in novel form (or read ANYTHING by Tey if you love a 
good read <g>).

CM is talking about the literary Richard above.  The innocence of the 
real Richard is not proven but there's a very good case for it.

Amy Z
who hates to see a good person maligned, even if he's 500 years dead 
and it makes for a great story




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Feb  1 14:58:52 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:58:52 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Heavy Volume of Email on this List
References: <95brs1+unk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7979AC.2D23D5BC@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11446

Hi --

cad2 at hotmail.com wrote:

> I belong to (far too) many lists on yahoogroups and elsewhere.  Once
> the list gets to a  certain size, the moderators usually set down
> some "large list" rules like not responding to a post with one
> word "Exactly!" or "Me, too!" etc...  For those who might read digest
> mode, its extrememly difficult to wade through dozens of posts where
> 90% is quoted material from another lister and 10% is original
> thought.

These are actually "rules" that we've implemented (or reiterated more
strongly) recently.  They are in the Welcome Message and in the
Netiquette message for the group, along with several other suggestions
that are aimed at keeping message volume down and the digests readable
(somewhat).  I must confess that I think the digests generated by this
group must be terribly hard to read, but then again, I don't care for
digest mode at all.

If you have only skimmed (or ignored!) the Welcome Message, Netiquette
Message and other Admin messages of late, please do take an opportunity
to review these messages.

Highlights --

SUBJECT HEADINGS  -- If everyone is consistently looking at their
subject headings & keeping them relevant, this will help others to
decide what to read, skim or delete.

COMBINING POSTS -- We appreciate the concern for the FAQ Team in keeping
"conversation threads" confined to separate messages.  However, if your
response to 3-4 different message is going to be relatively brief on all
4 counts, we'd rather you just clearly label the subject heading with 4
topics & combine them into one post.

Combine, combine, combine -- wherever possible.

OFF-TOPIC POSTS -- We are probably going to crack down much more readily
on this issue than we have in the past, so please be mindful of the
Off-Topic Rules for the group.  We'd prefer to not see them *at all*
during times of high traffic (but if you feel compelled, by all means
label it OT in the subject heading).

The Moderator Team is also discussing several other avenues to try and
get the volume under control.  We are all too aware that the membership
spike this month and various other factors have led to an extremely high
message volume.  Simon posted an analysis of messages posted this month
to the Moderator group earlier this month.  The message volume was high
before the salon.com piece, but it really shows a sharp upturn right
after that article was released.  We're thrilled with our new members,
but we do recognize that some things are going to need to be addressed
soon.

Please continue to send any suggestions that you have to the Moderator
Team at:

HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

Messages to the above are received by all 5 moderators.  We may not
always respond personally, but trust me that your suggestions are being
debated and considered.

We will hopefully have additional message-reducing measures to announce
soon -- so stay tuned!

Penny
The Moderator Team



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cad2 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 15:10:48 2001
From: cad2 at hotmail.com (cad2 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:10:48 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Rules Question
In-Reply-To: <sa792efd.046@groupware.udapgh.com>
Message-ID: <95bu9o+rpb2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11447

I was confused by this at first, too.  Here is my understanding.  

If the team who catches teh snitch is loosing by no more than 150 
pts, they win (or tie ... is there such a thing as a tie game in 
Quidditch?).  

This exact thing happened at the Quidditch World Cup in GoF (as you 
suggested).  Krum caught the snitch (rather remarkably, if I'm 
remembering correctly) but Ireland still won b/c they were ahead by 
more than 150 pts.  

Does that help?  Anyone w/clarification on a tie score in Quidditch?

Cindy  

________________________________________________
If the Snitch is caught, that team automatically receives 150 points, 
and the game is over - usually 150 points is enough to win the game.  
But what happens if the Seeker accidentally catches the Snitch while 
they are losing by 151 points?
>      And please pardon my forgetfulness (if this indeed happen), 
but did something like this happen with Krum?  I don't have the 
Goblet of Fire in front of me right now, so I can't consult.
> 
> Thanks much!

> jeremy welsh





From rlpenar at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 15:10:43 2001
From: rlpenar at yahoo.com (rlpenar at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:10:43 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Rules Question
In-Reply-To: <sa792efd.046@groupware.udapgh.com>
Message-ID: <95bu9j+4njh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11448

Jeremy wrote:
>      My question is this: How does a team actually win a Quidditch 
>match?  Here is my understanding: throughout the match, Chasers 
>attempt to score goals with the Quaffles; while this is going on, 
>the Seekers from each team are on a hunt for the Golden Snitch.  If 
>the Snitch is caught, that team automatically receives 150 points, 
>and the game is over - usually 150 points is enough to win the 
>game.  But what happens if the Seeker accidentally catches the 
>Snitch while they are losing by 151 points?
>      And please pardon my forgetfulness (if this indeed happen), 
>but did something like this happen with Krum?  I don't have the 
>Goblet of Fire in front of me right now, so I can't consult.

Hi Jeremy, I believe that the game is over when the Snitch is caught. 
If you have a Seeker who catches the Snitch when his/her team is more 
than 150 points down, well, it's time to get a new Seeker. It's all 
about strategy. 

But while we're on the subject, why is it that in PS/SS when Wood 
goes through the basics of Quidditch, he says there are four 
different size balls. He then goes on to say there is the quaffle, 
the snitch, and 2 bludgers. But aren't the bludgers the same size? Am 
I just reading this wrong? Being too detail-oriented? 

Becky




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 15:13:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:13:34 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Rules Question
In-Reply-To: <sa792efd.046@groupware.udapgh.com>
Message-ID: <95bueu+8795@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11449

Jeremy wrote:

>      And please pardon my forgetfulness (if this indeed happen), but 
did something like this happen with Krum?  I don't have the Goblet of 
Fire in front of me right now, so I can't consult.

Yes, it did.  You have the rules right:

-The game ends when the Snitch is caught.
-The winner is whoever has more points when the Snitch is caught.
-JKR hasn't told us what happens in the event of a tie.  Creative 
solutions solicited.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"And some old witch in Bath had a book that you could *never
stop reading*!  You just had to wander around with your nose 
in it, trying to do everything one-handed."
                    --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
-----------------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 15:16:09 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:16:09 -0000
Subject: ummm...
In-Reply-To: <95bueu+8795@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95bujp+mq5n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11451

I meant, of course, that the winner is whoever has the most points 
AFTER the Snitch is caught.

And I see that two other people have just answered your post so I'll 
shut up now.

AZ




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Feb  1 15:33:43 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:33:43 -0000
Subject: Chat transcripts
In-Reply-To: <95ac28+d6u2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOECLDCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 11452

Keith wrote: "Yahoo doesn't seem to like messages over 64K, so the chat
transcripts over at the HPforGrownupsChatScripts group will all be truncated
(much to my chagrin as I wanted to read the embarassing bit about everyone's
love lives again :-)). In future we will have to put them in the Files
section."

This is annoying. I have been and had a quick look. The message is
definitely there in its full form, but on web view you only get to see the
first 64K. If you wish to see the rest of the message then select view
source. Then the message appears in full, but with annoying extra characters
littered through the text. It does, however, remain reasonably easy to read.

I will see if I can find out anything about this, but at the moment have
very little spare time. So an answer may take a while.


Simon
--
Faith?
"... walk straight at it ... Don't stop and don't be scared ... that's very
important. Dest do it at a bit of a run if you're nervous."
Molly Weasley - Harry Potter and the Philospher's Stone by J.K. Rowling





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 15:42:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:42:44 -0000
Subject: Hermione regarding Neville
In-Reply-To: <3A78AD60.AC2DAA34@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <95c05k+bnn8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11453

Re: Hermione regarding Neville

Heidi wrote:

>I am now wondering if, upon meeting Neville, she said something like,
>"Oh, I know all about your parents - they're in Modern Magical 
History and The
>Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Tragidies of the Reign Of You Know 
Who..."
>and he still went walking around with her.

Uh, good point.  It hadn't clicked for me how insensitive Hermione was 
being to Harry at that point.  Overbearing, but not insensitive.  
(Maybe because I also would have read all about it if I were Harry!  
but we all have different ways of assimilating family tragedies.)  You 
are right.

Okay, I take back all the nice things I said about HG.  She is a lout 
at the start of 1 and I'd hate to be Neville if she'd read about me.  
So instead of sensitivity points to Hermione, let's give complexity 
points to JKR, and a few brownie points to Hermione for maturing so 
much over the next few years.

;-)
Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------
Many people said he hadn't noticed he was dead.
         --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Thu Feb  1 16:45:46 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:45:46 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: R/H, H/G, OBHWF, M-O-U-S-E
References: <95aao2+57h5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c08c6e$79a7b8a0$f1417bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 11454

 At the end of the series, Ginny will be all of
> sixteen. Nobody's marrying anyone. (I hope.)

In the UK, I believe it is still legal to marry at 16 with parental
consent. 16 is the age where it's legal to have sex in this country
anyway, so Harry marrying Ginny is quite feasible.

Michelle




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 17:43:59 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:43:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filk:  I'm in Love With My Car
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10101312134140.48567-100000@freeside.fc.net>
Message-ID: <00c701c08c76$900bdce0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11455

Oh How wonderful Marvin!

Dances.

Need I admit that I am a Queen fan, and Roger Taylor's voice is singing your
version when I read it?  Grins.  Funny thing, though.  As a female, the song
(both songs) are correct--I seem to find the men who are more interested in
their cars than me!

LOL

(Winks)

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marvin Long, Jr." <msl at fc.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 9:44 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filk: I'm in Love With My Car


>
> Filk to the tune of "I'm in Love With My Car" by Queen
> song found on _A Night at the Opera_
>
> Lead singer:  Arthur Weasley
> Chorus:  Fred, George, & Ron Weasley, plus Harry Potter
>
> --------------
>
> Oooooooo ooouuuuooouuoooooo....
>
> The machine of a dream, O Muggle machine,
> With the pistons a-pumpin', and charmed valves that scream!
>
> When I'm holding your wheel
> I can fly like a Lear;
>
> When I magicked your grease gun
> Oh, I shivered with frission!
>
> I'm in love with my ca-a-ar (ch: in love with my car!)
>      It's like no other automobile;  (oooouuuooouuooo)
> Get a grip for that pitch, lean and yaw, (oooouuuooouuooo)
>      Take a ride in my Ford Anglia!  (Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh!)
>
> Told my wife I was just doing research,
> The family's good name, I never would besmirch;
>
> I got found out when the boys whomped a willow,
> So deep into debt my wife and I will go.
>
> (OoooouuuuOoooouuuuu)
>
> But when I'm holding her wheel,
> She eradicates fear;
>
> When I'm chasin' a tall cloud,
> I can kiss off the whole bloody Ministry crowd!
>
> I'm in love with my ca-a-ar (I'm in love with my car, with my car)
>      It's like no other automobile;  (oooouuuooouuooo)
> I'm in love with my ca-a-ar, (I'm in love with my car, with my car)
>      Watch out broomsticks, I'm flying in style!
>
> ----------------
>
> Marvin Long
> Austin, Texas
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 17:52:43 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:52:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Hygiene ( abit ot)
References: <01c08b9c$b6ccad80$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <011101c08c77$c833aac0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11456

Snape's hair always amused me, if that's the proper term, because I can't
help but think we share the same hair.

Since stopping breastfeeding in Jan 99, my hair went from normal to
Valvoline Car center.  Hours after washing, even with a shampoo guaranteed
to dry out my scalp (Dr. Bonners), I am still getting flat, limp hair that
looks shiny (greasy).

I am a very clean person.  (aka take baths alot!)

My question would be, what exactly is the definition of sallow?  Pale, with
areas that resemble bruises?  Olive toned paleness?  ????

*Thinks about it--hey, maybe I am related to Snape!  Grins.  I do like
mixing herbs!

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Monika Zaboklicka" <monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Hygiene


>
>
> >>As a matter of fact, if I was a witch, I'd be
> >>only too happy to be able to call my boy Severus Snape Jr. But his
father
> >>would have to get used to taking baths first ;-)))
> >
> >>                   Monika
>
>
> >A quick word in Snape's favor
>
> [My jaw drops] Oh, dear, I *did* make it sound as if I was criticising
> Snape! How could I!
> Bad Winky will iron her hands for criticising Master Severus! <g>
>
> > Just because the guy's hair is 'greasy', in Harry's point of view,
> > doesn't mean that the man never takes a bath.  I know someone who washes
> their hair daily and
> >it's still limp and leaning towards oily.
>
> You're right. I know such a person myself. No matter what the poor girl
was
> doing, her hair was greasy after a couple of hours.
>
> > I can't imagine that Sev would keep his position for long
> > if he smelled worse than his potions.  Like a lot of people, he's on
life
> long quest to find the perfect shampoo.
>
> Anyway, he doesn't seem to care much about how he looks. And finding
proper
> shampoo shouldn't be too difficult for a wizard.
>
> But I call off what I said - I'd like Severus to be my son's father (if I
> was witch) if he'd only do something with his hair and sallow skin.
> And I do believe he's taking baths!
> May Winky bandage her hands now? Pretty please...
>
> >And I agree - Severus is a terrific name.
>
> Your taste is as good as Katarzyna's <vgb>. I'm proud of you both!
>
> Monika Z.
> (The Snape fan)
>
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Feb  1 17:06:57 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:06:57 -0000
Subject: R/H, H/G, OBHWF, M-O-U-S-E
In-Reply-To: <00e301c08c6e$79a7b8a0$f1417bd5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <95c53h+e3jn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11457

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
>  At the end of the series, Ginny will be all of
> > sixteen. Nobody's marrying anyone. (I hope.)
> 
> In the UK, I believe it is still legal to marry at 16 with parental
> consent. 16 is the age where it's legal to have sex in this country
> anyway, so Harry marrying Ginny is quite feasible.
> 
> Michelle

It's feasible *legally* perhaps, but still IMHO *extremely* unlikely. 
Ginny would be married and still in school at Hogwarts. *shudders 
with horror at the idea of a "Ginny and Harry Move Off Campus Into 
Special Housing" subplot.* 

Cassie




From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb  1 17:47:03 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:47:03 -0600
Subject: Clarification of Hogwarts heraldry--LONG
References: <959gn1+c7cv@eGroups.com> <3A78AE83.D1557AA6@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <3A79A117.D7C4F898@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11458

heidi wrote:

> The shield, if my understanding of heraldry is correct (and it may not
> be) is the MIDDLE portion of the crest - the crest has the different
> house animal symbols - if that's the
> case, the shield termonology is correct.

<lecture mode ON>
*ahem.* Thank you for coming to Amanda's Fabulous Heraldry Lecture. Get
comfortable.

To clarify a bit, some terms. The basic components of a full achievement
of arms (the drawing with the shield, motto, etc.--full nine yards) are:

-the shield
-the helmet atop it with an animal or some emblem on top
-supporters, which are figures that hold up the shield on either side
(example--the lion and unicorn of England/Britain/whatever, you Brits
know what I mean)
-the motto, usually on a thin curvy banner beneath the shield and
supporters

Taking these terms in order:

The term "crest," which just about everyone uses for the design on the
shield, is properly only applied to the thing that sits atop the helmet.
We have not seen a full achievement of Hogwarts School, and so do not
know what the crest is. I'd assume it's a demi-boar, rampant (top half
of a boar, upright) or a demi-dragon, dormant (top half of dragon,
portrayed sleeping). But that's just my opinion--we have not been told.
No part of what they've drawn up for Hogwarts or the houses is a crest,
nor have we been told in canon what the crest of Hogwarts might be.

What we've been calling the crest is actually the device, the design on
the shield. Each house has a device. They are (off my Official Fridge
Magnet):
Gryffindor - Gold lion on red (Gules, a lion rampant to sinister Or)
Slytherin - Silver snake on green (Vert, a serpent embowed erect argent)

(my terminology for the snake's position is probably off; I don't have a
heraldry reference handy)
Hufflepuff - Black badger on gold (Or, a badger rampant regardant sable)

Ravenclaw - Gold eagle on blue (Azure, an eagle displayed Or)
(although in the artwork they've drawn the eagle looking remarkably like
a raven about the head)

The device of Hogwarts itself is a case of quartering--it combines the
four House devices on one shield. The "H" is on a little shield overall,
called an inescutcheon, and is a black H on gold (Or, a capital letter H
sable).

These designs, by the way, are absolutely beautiful heraldry, and are
the only correct ones in canon. Those modern "logo-style" nightmares
they've come up with, with the outlines of the animal over multicolored
fields, etc., are movie-products, designed for modern eyes, and ugly as
sin. Not to mention their contrast is lousy, and heraldry was for
Identification At A Distance.

Supporters--we have not been told if the achievement of Hogwarts has
supporters, although I'd postulate they'd be winged boars, since winged
boars top the columns framing the gate.

And the motto--we all know the motto, appropriately presented in Latin
as is traditional (although you do find other languages). Draco dormiens
nunquam titillandus.

Any questions? Comments? General pleas to shut up?

<lecture mode OFF>

Scones and clotted cream all round; my place at 4, okay?

--Amanda (can you tell I'm a herald in a medieval group?)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rdeyerle at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 17:50:06 2001
From: rdeyerle at hotmail.com (Rusty Deyerle)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:50:06 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Rules Question
In-Reply-To: <95bu9j+4njh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95c7ke+447c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11459

> 
> But while we're on the subject, why is it that in PS/SS when Wood 
> goes through the basics of Quidditch, he says there are four 
> different size balls. He then goes on to say there is the quaffle, 
> the snitch, and 2 bludgers. But aren't the bludgers the same size? 
Am 
> I just reading this wrong? Being too detail-oriented? 
> 
> Becky

I think he meant that there are 4 balls.  They are various sizes 
quaffle (large),snitch (small) and bludgers (medium).  I think it was 
poor grammer the way it was wriiten.




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Feb  1 17:51:52 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (Jeralyn)
Date: 1 Feb 2001 09:51:52 -0800
Subject: Merchandise Newsflash!
Message-ID: <20010201175152.5180.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11460

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010201/e0b00022/attachment.ksh>

From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb  1 17:52:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:52:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Draco Redeemable? + Draco/Snape relationship
References: <95b7ga+couk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A79A264.A497266C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11461

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> Oh, goodness, any goodness of Draco is the fantasy of someone other
> than JKR (with respect to those who read fanfic it's just not there in
> the books)

Couldn't agree more. Draco's a little toad.

> Snape is mentioned by Voldemort as someone who has left him forever..
> Snape is at HOGWARTS under the personal protection of Albus
> Dumbledore, and Voldemort cannot touch him...only Hogwarts is safe...

But is this ever stated in the books explicitly? Or is this just the
consensus on the group? I think this, too, but this sort of assumption
is exactly the thing that JKR loves to do to us. We've certainly been
led to believe it, but I see our rug getting pulled out from under us as
a distinct possibility.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr  Thu Feb  1 18:11:57 2001
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr (bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:11:57 -0000
Subject: Snape and Hygiene ( abit ot)
In-Reply-To: <011101c08c77$c833aac0$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <95c8td+ef5v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11462

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Snape's hair always amused me, if that's the proper term, because I 
can't
> help but think we share the same hair.
> 
> Since stopping breastfeeding in Jan 99, my hair went from normal to
> Valvoline Car center.  Hours after washing, even with a shampoo 
guaranteed
> to dry out my scalp (Dr. Bonners), I am still getting flat, limp 
hair that
> looks shiny (greasy).
> 
> I am a very clean person.  (aka take baths alot!)
> 
> My question would be, what exactly is the definition of sallow?  
Pale, with
> areas that resemble bruises?  Olive toned paleness?  ????
> 

>From my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary :
sallow 
 a.[OE salo = MDu. salu, saluwe discoloured, dirty, OHG salo dark-
coloured (G dial. sal), ON solr yellow, f. Gmc.] 

Of a person or the complexion: having an unhealthy yellow or pale 
brown colour.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 18:12:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:12:53 -0000
Subject: Merchandise Newsflash!
In-Reply-To: <20010201175152.5180.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <95c8v5+8dt5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11463


> Harry Potter Remembrall $15.95 USD

I don't need to drop $16 to be reminded that I've forgotten 
something.  Like Neville, I always have.  Also like Neville, I'd find 
a Remembrall a lot more useful if it told me WHAT I'd forgotten . . . 
invent one of those and you've got my money.

The creativity and chutzpah of merchandising will never cease to 
amaze me.

Amy Z





From msl at fc.net  Thu Feb  1 18:16:57 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:16:57 -0000
Subject: Filk:  I'm in Love With My Car
In-Reply-To: <00c701c08c76$900bdce0$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <95c96p+4ruk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11464

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Oh How wonderful Marvin!
> 
> Dances.

Woo hoo!  It doesn't 100% suck!  (First filk, you see:  I was starting
to get worried.)  Thank you!

> Need I admit that I am a Queen fan, and Roger Taylor's voice is 
> singing your version when I read it?  Grins.  

Absolutely.  Arthur is definitely a frustrated gearhead, IMO.  And the
song is just too good not to, er, appropriate.

> Funny thing, though.  As a female, the song (both songs) are 
> correct--I seem to find the men who are more interested in their 
> cars than me!
> 

Well now, the thing to do is to hang some string-back gloves in an
automolove of your own. ;-)

marvin




From msl at fc.net  Thu Feb  1 18:26:50 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:26:50 -0000
Subject: Snape and Hygiene
In-Reply-To: <01c08b9c$b6ccad80$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <95c9pa+2f7r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11465

When critiquing Snape's grooming I think we should take his profession
into account.  As a potions master he spends all day slaving over a
steaming hot cauldron in a room (an underground room, likely to be
poorly ventilated) full of steaming hot cauldrons.  In these cauldrons
are boiling, among other things, a variety of animal parts which
themselves are likely to be rather greasy.

Under circumstances such as these a man will perspire.  Since he does
it for a large part of the day, Snape's hair is bound to suffer the
natural side effects.  Since he is an intellectual and a professional,
I suspect he spends a lot of his out-of-class time on research as
well.

marvin




From cad2 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 18:30:41 2001
From: cad2 at hotmail.com (cad2 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:30:41 -0000
Subject: Is Draco Redeemable? + Draco/Snape relationship
In-Reply-To: <3A79A264.A497266C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <95ca0h+l2nb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11466

If indeed Voldemort cannot touch Hogwarts, GoF proved that one of his 
groopies can.  Conceivably, any object could be turned into a 
portkey, just as in GoF so while Vold may not be able to enter 
Hogwarts, he could have people transported out.  Perhaps, prior to 
entering Hogwarts, students and Profs alike will be subject to some 
sort of truth potion or what-not to "prove" that they are in fact not 
faithful to Vold.  I tend to think that Draco is not redeemable but 
that's my spin on the HP world.  

As for Snape, I think the last pages of GoF (in my mind) prove that 
he has aligned himself with Dumbledore.  I could practically see the 
conviction on his face as he showed Fudge his Dark Mark and tried to 
convince Fudge to take the claims seriously.  Until this point in the 
series, I've strongly disliked Snape.  I do, however feel my attitude 
toward him will change for the better in the upcoming book(s) if 
indeed he does not betray Dumbledore and Hogwarts.  Ahhhhh... we 
shall see!  I can barely wait!

Cindy   
_______________________

Snape is mentioned by Voldemort as someone who has left him forever..
Snape is at HOGWARTS under the personal protection of Albus
Dumbledore, and Voldemort cannot touch him...only Hogwarts is safe...

 Amanda said:
But is this ever stated in the books explicitly? Or is this just the
consensus on the group? I think this, too, but this sort of assumption
is exactly the thing that JKR loves to do to us. We've certainly been
led to believe it, but I see our rug getting pulled out from under us 
asa distinct possibility.





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Feb  1 18:42:21 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:42:21 -0000
Subject: Canon (was Re: ADMIN: Suggestions (& actions) to decrease list volume
In-Reply-To: <95a6n9+pj4e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95camd+cdvn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11467

 cad2 at h... wrote:
>  but when you say "evidence in canon" what do you mean?  

Canon is what is actually written in the books by J. K. Rowling or 
what she has revealed in interviews. Therefore, canon does not include 
fan fic and fan speculation.

:-)Milz




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  1 18:54:33 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:54:33 -0000
Subject: The Way We Gnaw (filk)
In-Reply-To: <003601c08bfe$bb9a9cc0$c8c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <95cbd9+ctu3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11468

The Way We Gnaw 

(To the tune of The Way We Were)

(The Scene: The Forest outside Hogwarts.  Fleeing in panic is a lone 
rat, who upon closer examination turns out to be SCABBERS , aka PETER 
PETTIGREW, or WORMTAIL, or whatever it is he's calling himself these 
days.  PETTIGREW has just been "outed" by Prof. Lupin, but escaped in 
the form of a rat before he could be placed in custody.  SCABBERS 
pauses to catch his breath, and reflect on his sudden reversal of 
fortune) 

SCABBERS
Mammals always have such teeth and claws
But especially us rodents, that's the way we gnaw

Shattered pictures of the form I left behind 
Never again will Ron's pellets be the thing I gnaw  

Can it be that I betrayed my ev'ry friend? 
Or that I've chosen the wrong side? 
When I have the chance to do it all again, will I be straighter? 
Traitor? 

Obscurity can be wonderful and yet
As the servant of Voldemort, I assume a heavy debt 
Now, fate says "You're up!," so I'm off to Eastern Europe
So Voldemort can stir up ? it just the way he awes

..

(exit)

    - CMC

 












From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 19:00:24 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:00:24 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
Message-ID: <F97kMxLfkSpdVyxX81H0000263c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11469

What a great thread!

Monika wrote:

> >How far does/did Voldemort's Reign of Terror extend?  Was it just the UK
>that experienced the dark times?  Or did Europe also have problems with
>Death Eaters?  Did other countries even know what was going on?  I know all
>of this is pure conjecture - I don't recall there being anything mentioned
>about Voldemort being feared around the world.

Great question!

Many have noted parallels between Voldemort and Hitler. I'd like to point 
out that both of the World Wars were mainly fought in Europe.  Technically 
speaking, "world war" is a misnomer, since the majority of the world's 
population might not have had any clear idea of what was going on.

However, because of the relative dominance of the West over the past half 
millennium, whatever happens in the Western, "developed" nations has echoes 
in the so-called "Third World".

In closing, if Hitler's Germany had won World War II, I'm not so sure that 
he would have left his diabolical "Final Solution" on that continent.  
Similarly, if V.'s forces had prevailed in the years preceding Harry's 
birth, I'm *sure* he wouldn't have just stopped at European "mudbloods".

My view is that there could be "pureblooded", bigoted societies of wizards 
found on every continent.  These groups may not have a close genetic link to 
one another.  But the purity of blood and the superiority of magical over 
magic-less has been drilled into their heads.

As with most forms of racism and prejudice, the origin of 
anti-Muggle/Mudblood sentiment could have been precipated by any number of 
things.  I believe that the trigger that set in motion the evolution of 
racial prejudice in our own world consisted of several factors.  Over time, 
this prejudice becomes more and more acute.  For instance, Salazar 
Slytherin's dissent over Muggle-borns being allowed into Hogwarts culminated 
in V's all-consuming hatred a millennium later.

In the case of wizard prejudice, I believe that different events unfolding 
on different continents may have triggered the evolution of a Salazar 
Slytherin in the first place.  My theory is that some continents may have 
"remembered" magic for a longer period of time than others.  I've even 
sketched out a recent plausible magical history for Africa and the New 
World.  Rita Winston the Catlady, again, also has some very intriguing 
thoughts on this issue.

Again, Monika, great question.  I've been reading and thinking a lot about 
this topic lately.  And if the rumors are accurate, JKR will address this 
more fully in the books to come... we may be visiting Bill in Egypt before 
the series is over.  Just as Anne Rice did an excellent job in explaining to 
readers the origin of vampirism, I feel that Jo may explain to us how her 
version of magic came to be.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Feb  1 19:01:15 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:01:15 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Rules Question
In-Reply-To: <sa792efd.046@groupware.udapgh.com>
Message-ID: <95cbpr+cefn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11470

"Jeremy Welsh"  wrote:     My question is this: How does a team 
actually win a Quidditch match?  Here is my understanding: throughout 
the match, Chasers attempt to score goals with the Quaffles; while 
this is going on, the Seekers from each team are on a hunt for the 
Golden Snitch.  If the Snitch is caught, that team automatically 
receives 150 points, and the game is over - usually 150 points is 
enough to win the game.  But what happens if the Seeker accidentally 
catches the Snitch while they are losing by 151 points? And please 
pardon my forgetfulness (if this indeed happen), but 
did something like this happen with Krum?  I don't have the Goblet of 
Fire in front of me right now, so I can't consult.

Right the Chasers score points by throwing the Quaffles through the 
one of the 3 hoops. I think its 10 points per score (if I'm wrong, 
I'm sure someone else will know). The Snitch flys around the field. 
Catching the Snitch is 150 points. Also, the game ends when the Snitch 
is caught. I'm not sure if I'm stating this properly but Krum caught 
the Snitch during the World Cup to save face. IOW, Bulgaria was 
getting clobbered by Ireland, by catching the Snitch when he did, Krum 
decreased the points spread. From that I conclude the Bulgarian team 
had only one really superstar player, Krum, while the remainder of the 
team was mediocre compared to Ireland. 

Theoretically, it's also possible to have no points from the Quaffle, 
catch the Snitch and win. 

:-) Milz 




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 19:26:57 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:26:57 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Draco Redeemable? (was Re: The Death of Cedric)
Message-ID: <F268MCa3Eky00sp0yx200002841@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11471

>Heidi:" Over the past few days, we've had a lot of posts from people
>saying "Snape may not be so bad - we only see him through Harry's
>eyes!" and the like. Well, it's the same for Draco - other than the
>one scene in CoS where, admittedly, he acts a little sociopathic -
>we've only seen him through Harry's eyes."
>
Jim:  How would the scene on the Hogwarts Express at the end of GoF look
>different from someone else's PoV? the one where he taunts the Trio
>about the Dark Lord's rebirth and Cedric's murder?  "Mudbloods and
>Muggle-lovers first!"
>

I repeat:  Draco Malfoy is a 14 year old kid.  I hated his guts too at the 
end of GoF.  I loved Cassie's rendition of him, but still didn't hold too 
much sympathy for the incredible bouncing ferret.  It wasn't until writing 
about Draco at 28 years old that his character surprised me.

Canon Draco is the wizarding world's equivalent of a young, rich racist.  
He's petty, he's spoiled, and he likes having things his own way.

Canon Draco is also highly intelligent.  I'd say that reading between the 
lines, his wit is indicative of a brain that could outpace both Harry's and 
Ron's.  He is a leader of men.  I'm sure he'd like real friends... 
re-reading the beginning of SS, he sought out Harry's friendship, even 
though I'd daresay that he knew Harry was not really the follower-type.

The worldview of most 14 year olds is relatively tiny and much more strongly 
parent/guardian-influenced than the kid would like to admit.

At 14, I saw the world through race-colored glasses.  Parental influence.

At 19, I saw the world through religion-colored glasses.  Peer group 
influence.

At 23, I see the world through neither.  I realize that my worldview is 
still changing and will perhaps always change.  I'm not so sure about my 
absolute categories any more.

I'm thinking of a girl who was the leader of the elite in-crowd at my school 
from first through eighth grade, who hated my guts with a passion.  I was 
the de facto female head of the freaks and geeks group.  My parents were 
poor.  Hers were not.  I grew up in the inner city.  She grew up in a neat 
cul-de-sac.  She was proud of her family and everything they stood for.  We 
disliked each other and everything the other stood for intensely.  I saw her 
in 1995 when we were freshmen in college, and she was still nasty and 
snobbish then.

She sought me out three weeks ago out of the blue.  Came to my classroom.  
Hugged me warmly.  Talked for a half hour on end.  In effect, apologized for 
the wrongs of childhood.  We're women now.  We've found out that we have a 
lot in common.  We may end up friends.

I'm thinking of the Civil Rights Movement in this country.  Many young white 
baby-boomers whose parents were virulent racists marched alongside blacks 
for equal rights.  Perhaps at 14, some of them agreed with their parents on 
the civil rights issue.

Some of the same people who argue passionate cases for Snape (who I don't 
care for much) are writing Draco off.  The rhetoric isn't logical, at least 
not the way I've been reading the Slyth threads.

Is Draco really a caricature?  Or can he be redeemed?

Think Draco can't change?  I'd be more surprised if he did not.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ffionelin at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Feb  1 19:57:58 2001
From: ffionelin at yahoo.co.uk (ffionelin at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:57:58 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Rules Question
In-Reply-To: <sa792efd.046@groupware.udapgh.com>
Message-ID: <95cf46+ddad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11472

Hei Jeremy Welsh!
IN answer to your quidditch question [I'm sure you've had loads of 
answers!]
It's quite simple - when the Snitch it caught, the game is over - and 
you just add up the scores.  e.g, in the Quiditch world Cup, Ireland 
had scored [this is an estimate, can't remember quite how much] say, 
210, and Bulgaria [Krum's team] had scored 30. Then, Krum catches the 
snitch, Bulgaria get 150 points - but that still only leaves them 
with 180 v Ireland's 210 - so, even though they caught the snitch and 
finished the game, they didn't have enough points [including the 150] 
to win.
Got it?  

[Are you American?  Because understanding Quidditch rules seems to 
come a lot easier to me than the unfathomable American Football!!!].





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Thu Feb  1 20:33:59 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:33:59 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron/Sirius parallels
In-Reply-To: <95a20a+vn6o@eGroups.com>
References: <2vlg7ts9k4kf6f9kvdvrdrl8qqatets0dt@4ax.com> <95a20a+vn6o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <445j7tsdhe9ihfbrtuc3cqj4q0h22jlpr4@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11473

On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:01:46 -0000, "Kimberly" <moongirlk at yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I wasn't blaming, though, I was just saying it was probably a result 
>of anger and/or hot-headedness. 

I am sorry Kimberley, I think I have a bit overgeneralized here. 

> I certainly doubt that Snape was an 
>innocent victim, he probably provoked it, but provoked or not, he was 
>either angry, coldly cruel or really dangerously stupid, and I don't 
>think he's cruel or stupid.  Temper, to me, seemed like the most 
>reasonable, understandable reason for doing what he did.

I think there is a big difference in pre-Azkaban and post-Azkaban
Sirius. I believe he was rather immature at 16, and you are right, he
is neither cruel nor stupid. I still can't make sense of the
Snape/Lupin incident, and I think Penny might be right when she says
that we don't know everything about it.

>Thanks for the information on this, Monika.  I don't know anything 
>about either PTSD or ASD, and those things may well explain *why* he 
>behaves the way he does.  I can't know for sure.  Either way, though, 
>whether it's just his nature to have a hot temper, or if he has a hot 
>temper because of these problems, the behavior is still there.  I 
>accept that he may have particular reasons for being volatile, but 
>that just reinforces that he is, in fact, volatile, which is all I was 
>asserting.

I understand your point, but I see a difference between having a hot
temper because it is his nature and having a hot temper because of a
psychiatric disorder. The first one is inherited and will persist
forever, the latter one can be treated, and we have seen that it had
already worn off a bit (at least as far as we could see) in GoF. 

> I wasn't trying to place blame and say he's a bad person 
>because of it.  Sirius is one of my favorite characters.  I enjoy 
>trying to decide which is more appealing - Sirius or Lupin.

They are also my favorite characters, but I have a pronounced
preference for Sirius, maybe because of his tragic story.

Monika


--
Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html

Current book: William H. Calvin: The Ascent of Mind



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 21:06:26 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:06:26 -0000
Subject: Is Draco Redeemable? (was Re: The Death of Cedric)
In-Reply-To: <F268MCa3Eky00sp0yx200002841@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95cj4i+rikf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11474

Ebony, spouse of Fred, wrote:
 
> Some of the same people who argue passionate cases for Snape (who I 
don't 
> care for much) are writing Draco off.  The rhetoric isn't logical, 
at least 
> not the way I've been reading the Slyth threads.

Amen.  We don't know when or why Snape changed his stripes, but it 
was when he was older than Draco is now.  He's still a horrible nasty 
person (poisoning students' pets with their own potions should be 
item #1 in the Evil Teachers Handbook), but current consensus on this 
list is that he's Good as opposed to On Voldemort's Side.  

He'd make a great mentor for Draco.  In fact, Draco is going to have 
an interesting choice ahead of him.  So far he has seen his dad and 
Snape as allies (why?  has Lucius believed that Snape was a baddie at 
heart?  don't the DE's know Snape was an agent for Dumbledore?  or 
has Lucius just kept that piece of information from dear Draco?).  If 
we and Dumbledore are correct, they are now mortal enemies.

Snape understands that you can loathe someone (James, Harry, Remus, 
Sirius) and still be on his/her side.  Harry's starting to figure 
that out.  Now Draco may have to do the same.

Oh man, I cannot wait until book 5 to see where this all goes.  Write 
fast, Jo!

Amy Z




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 21:35:58 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:35:58 -0000
Subject: Clarification of Hogwarts heraldry
In-Reply-To: <3A79A117.D7C4F898@texas.net>
Message-ID: <95ckru+up6j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11475

Amanda wrote:
"These designs, by the way, are absolutely beautiful heraldry, and are
the only correct ones in canon. Those modern "logo-style" nightmares
they've come up with, with the outlines of the animal over 
multicolored fields, etc., are movie-products, designed for modern 
eyes, and ugly as sin. Not to mention their contrast is lousy, and 
heraldry was for Identification At A Distance."

--Well it's good to know that they've gotten something right. I don't 
know but I always thought that the horrid "logo-style" things were 
Quidditch Team logo's not house symbols. If that's true then you can 
calm down. 

"Any questions? Comments? General pleas to shut up?"

--On the contrary. This was interesting, and besides this list is 
only fun because everyone brings their own interests to it.  
 
"Scones and clotted cream all round; my place at 4, okay?"

--NOT FAIR!!! I wish I could come over for tea(?). I do make scones 
on occasion, but I can't get clotted cream and I would so love the 
authentic stuff.


Amanda (can you tell I'm a herald in a medieval group?) 

--Yes.

Scott




From litalex at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 21:51:54 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:51:54 -0800
Subject: newbie alert, also Re: Unsappiness, slash?
References: <95boq0+ahsl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <014201c08c99$32044740$aa11eda9@y1j2s0>

No: HPFGUIDX 11476

Hello,

Yes, the dreaded newbie.  Well, perhaps not.  Anyway, my name is Alex; I
love all four of the HP books, and I run hpslash, a fact that keeps me up in
the middle of the night sometimes.  Just kidding, my conscience is
completely clear on that matter.  So, question, are mentions of slash
allowed on this list?

Anyway, pending on the answer, I'll assume for the time being that it is
allowed.  If it isn't, I apologize.

> Lots of H/Hers don't want to see R/H because OBHWF (that's One Big
> Happy Weasley Family, newbies) is too sappy/cliched.
>
> Lots of R/Hers don't want to see H/H because HGTG (Hero Gets the Girl)
> is too sappy/cliched.

Well, I guess it'd be my duty as a slasher to mention that if Harry and
Draco got together, that probably will be the least sappiest of all?  Or
Ron/Draco, but that's hardly my preferred pairing.

little Alex




From jane.girard at calcpa.org  Thu Feb  1 21:50:01 2001
From: jane.girard at calcpa.org (Jane Girard)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:50:01 -0800 
Subject: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
Message-ID: <F53A72052090D411A37700B0D0493A362F57E8@postoffice.calcpa.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11477

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:00:24 
From: "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence 

>Many have noted parallels between Voldemort and Hitler. I'd like to point 
>out that both of the World Wars were mainly fought in Europe.? Technically 
>speaking, "world war" is a misnomer, since the majority of the world's 
>population might not have had any clear idea of what was going on. 
>
>However, because of the relative dominance of the West over the past half 
>millennium, whatever happens in the Western, "developed" nations has echoes

>in the so-called "Third World". 

FYI, WWII was fought in Europe, Asia and North America (if you count
Hawaii). Japan, China and Russia were heavily involved in the War.



From lisa at chessdiva.com  Thu Feb  1 21:59:15 2001
From: lisa at chessdiva.com (Lisa Gansky)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:59:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] newbie alert, also Re: Unsappiness, slash?
In-Reply-To: <014201c08c99$32044740$aa11eda9@y1j2s0>
Message-ID: <20010201215915.18302.qmail@web6204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11478

hiya alex!

> So, question, are
> mentions of slash
> allowed on this list?

wooo, slash :) i just got here myself a couple days
ago, so i'm not sure on the rules!

> Well, I guess it'd be my duty as a slasher to
> mention that if Harry and
> Draco got together, that probably will be the least
> sappiest of all?  Or
> Ron/Draco, but that's hardly my preferred pairing.

eek, i never thought of that. that's just scary. :P
ever thought about Krum/Ron? :)

just playin' (and bored at work)
~Lisa


=====
Lisa Gansky's Alternate E-mail
Main E-mail: lisa at chessdiva.com
http://www.chessdiva.com
Check out the Roswellian Art Studio: http://roswellianartstudio.cjb.net/

__________________________________________________
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From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Thu Feb  1 22:04:16 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:04:16 EST
Subject: UK Merchandise 
Message-ID: <7c.110f9772.27ab3761@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11479

Might there be anyone in the UK able to locate a Hedwig plush owl at any of the stores. Or point me to an online store where I could purchase one. I'm looking for the tag to say HP and the 'Philosopher's' stone.

:::mutters something about a friend wanting one of these and how impossible locating anything she WANTS has become::::

If you have any info, please e-mail me directly as I cannot read every message that comes through this list any longer:(


~Hedwig~



From bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr  Thu Feb  1 22:23:22 2001
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr (bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:23:22 -0000
Subject: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
In-Reply-To: <01c08c56$b3f30c20$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <95cnkq+dcnq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11480

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Zaboklicka" 
<monika.zaboklicka at c...> wrote:
> 
> >How far does/did Voldemort's Reign of Terror extend?  Was it just 
the UK
> that experienced the dark times?  Or did Europe also have problems 
with
> Death Eaters?  Did other countries even know what was going on?  I 
know all
> of this is pure conjecture - I don't recall there being anything 
mentioned
> about Voldemort being feared around the world.
> >
> Just one small thing comes to my mind - Bulgarian Minister of Magic 
is
> clearly impressed and excited when he meets Harry. That might mean 
he knows
> enough about fight with Voldemort to recognize Harry by his scar.  
But, of
> course, it doesn't show what an average Bulgarian wizard knows about 
Voldie.
> 
Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that 
"Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for 
Voldemort's supporters?
Wouldn't something along the lines of "The Dark League" or "The 
National Order of Dark Wizardry" have been much better?
Bob




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 22:37:05 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:37:05 -0000
Subject: Is Draco Redeemable? (was Re: The Death of Cedric)
In-Reply-To: <F268MCa3Eky00sp0yx200002841@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95coeh+f4s9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11481

Ebony wrote:
I repeat:  Draco Malfoy is a 14 year old kid.  I hated his guts too 
at the end of GoF.  
<snip> 
Canon Draco is the wizarding world's equivalent of a young, rich 
racist. He's petty, he's spoiled, and he likes having things his own 
way. Canon Draco is also highly intelligent.  I'd say that reading 
between the lines, his wit is indicative of a brain that could 
outpace both Harry's and  Ron's.  He is a leader of men.  I'm sure 
he'd like real friends... 

--Draco doesn't really have any friends does he? For that matter does 
Draco even have anyone to care about him?  His relationship with 
Crabbe and Goyle is more henchmen-boss (or something like that). He 
went with Pansy Parkinson to the Yule Ball but there is no indication 
of whether they date (and to digress from topic just what DOES one do 
on a date at Hogwarts?) or have any feelings for each other. His 
relationship with his parents seems on the surface be more of a piece 
of clay which shall be moulded according to his father's whim. In 
other words I doubt Lucius really cares for Draco that much.  

Is Draco loved at all? He has no real peer friendships or 
relationships with caring adults. In a way his childhood must of been 
a lot like Harry's. Except Draco hasn't been rescued from it, and may 
no longer want to be. 

Ebony wrote:
"re-reading the beginning of SS, he sought out Harry's friendship, 
eventhough I'd daresay that he knew Harry was not really the follower-
type."

--It stuck me that I while I didn't DISLIKE Draco when Harry met him 
in Mamdam Malkim's for the first time I didn't like him either. It 
was clear that he wanted to impress Harry, but did he REALLY want to 
be Harry's friend? More likely he only wanted Harry on his side (or 
something like that).

Ebony wrote:
"The worldview of most 14 year olds is relatively tiny and much more 
strongly parent/guardian-influenced than the kid would like to admit.
At 14, I saw the world through race-colored glasses.  Parental 
influence. 
At 19, I saw the world through religion-colored glasses.  Peer group 
influence.
At 23, I see the world through neither.  I realize that my worldview 
is still changing and will perhaps always change.  I'm not so sure 
about my absolute categories any more."

--This is true. At sixteen I can see my own worldviews changing 
everyday. I'm thinking independently, and doing so more than I ever 
had. I love it! I know that my parents and family have affected the 
way I view the world, but I no longer accept what someone says as 
fact. My parents may disagree with me on a lot of things, but that's 
ok. IMO, that shows that they're doing their job...helping me become 
my own person. (Do Draco's parents want him to become his own person 
or simply follow in daddy Malfoy's footsteps?)

I see many people who look through absolute glasses, and I have a 
real problem with it since nothing is absolute. Our own glasses are 
couloured by our experiences. My views may be different b/c I've had 
different experiences that doesn't make them wrong. (Draco doesn't 
think that HIS racist views are wrong. Are they (IMO, yes) or are 
they simply his views? Does Draco have the right to be a bigot if he 
wishes?)

Ebony wrote:
"Think Draco can't change?  I'd be more surprised if he did not."

In the end I'm with you he is likely to change, but AT THIS POINT IN 
THE CANON he hasn't shown any qualities that would point in that 
direction.

Scott













From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb  1 22:42:55 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:42:55 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
References: <F53A72052090D411A37700B0D0493A362F57E8@postoffice.calcpa.org>
Message-ID: <3A79E66F.D23F2A6B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11482

Jane Girard wrote:

> FYI, WWII was fought in Europe, Asia and North America (if you count
> Hawaii). Japan, China and Russia were heavily involved in the War.

Don't forget North Africa!

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb  1 22:46:23 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:46:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
References: <95cnkq+dcnq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A79E73E.C452ACB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11483

bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr wrote:

> Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that
> "Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for
> Voldemort's supporters?
> Wouldn't something along the lines of "The Dark League" or "The
> National Order of Dark Wizardry" have been much better?

Au contraire, the image of those who are nourished and sustained by
death is a vivid one. I thought it evocative. And it does fit with
Voldemort's penchant for the melodramatic, plotwise.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 22:57:57 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:57:57 -0000
Subject: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
In-Reply-To: <F53A72052090D411A37700B0D0493A362F57E8@postoffice.calcpa.org>
Message-ID: <95cpll+tssc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11484

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jane Girard <jane.girard at c...> wrote:
> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:00:24 
> From: "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
> Subject: Re: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence 
> 
> >Many have noted parallels between Voldemort and Hitler. I'd like 
to point 
> >out that both of the World Wars were mainly fought in Europe.? 
Technically 
> >speaking, "world war" is a misnomer, since the majority of the 
world's 
> >population might not have had any clear idea of what was going on. 
> >
> >However, because of the relative dominance of the West over the 
past half 
> >millennium, whatever happens in the Western, "developed" nations 
has echoes
> 
> >in the so-called "Third World". 
> 
> FYI, WWII was fought in Europe, Asia and North America (if you count
> Hawaii). Japan, China and Russia were heavily involved in the War.

Not to mention Africa and several islands off Canada. 

Anyway, Moldy Voldy is a Brit and it is the duty of the Brits to 
fight first, but I do not imagine that He controlled only British 
wizards or that he was only going to get rid of muggles and mudbloods 
in the UK and/or Europe. I sincerely hope that some Salem witches get 
a hand in smacking Voldy down the second time around. Rather like 
WWII. Joint effort of a great many people and nations to defeat his 
nastiness. That's just a hope; I'm guessing that JKR has enough on 
her hands with the cast of characters she's created. Ah well!

Heather M.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Feb  1 22:36:46 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:36:46 -0000
Subject: slash? [was newbie alert etc]
References: <95boq0+ahsl@eGroups.com> <014201c08c99$32044740$aa11eda9@y1j2s0>
Message-ID: <01dd01c08c9f$7652cb00$d43570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11485

Alex said:

> Yes, the dreaded newbie.  Well, perhaps not.  Anyway, my name is Alex; I
> love all four of the HP books, and I run hpslash, a fact that keeps me up
in
> the middle of the night sometimes.  Just kidding, my conscience is
> completely clear on that matter.  So, question, are mentions of slash
> allowed on this list?

Hi Alex and welcome!

Mention away, but bear in mind that at the moment we're trying to bring in
title prefixing for some topics, such as 'SHIP:' for shipping posts and
'FF:' for fanfic-related posts.  I imagine slash-related stuff would fall
under one or the other of those most of the time.  As you run hpslash (I
lurk in a darkened cupboard there), I don't need to tell you that your own
club is the best place to go for those wall-to-wall slash discussions <g>.

For those wondering what 'slash' means, it's a term applied to same sex
pairings in fanfic and shipping.

Neil
Mechanimagus Moderator

_____________________________________
Flying-Ford-Anglia

"My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms but
one month into your fabulous Kwikspell course
I succeeded in turning her into a yak!
- Thank you Kwikspell!"

[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]







From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Feb  1 23:09:13 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:09:13 -0600
Subject: WWII: Global or Not (veered OT) (was Voldemort's Sphere...)
References: <F53A72052090D411A37700B0D0493A362F57E8@postoffice.calcpa.org> <3A79E66F.D23F2A6B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A79EC99.4C4E8631@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11486

Hi --

Ebony originally mentioned that WWII was largely confined to Europe.

> Jane Girard wrote:
>
> > FYI, WWII was fought in Europe, Asia and North America (if you count
>
> > Hawaii). Japan, China and Russia were heavily involved in the War.
>
> Amanda added: Don't forget North Africa!

And, I say don't forget:  India/Burma, Malaysia (one of my favorite
novels of all time is about the events surrounding the fall of
Singapore), Indochina, Indonesia (catalyst for the Japanese attack on
Pearl Harbor had to do with embargo of Malaysian rubber and Indonesian
oil IIRC), all the Pacific islands of course, the Middle East, etc.

WWII was truly global.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 23:50:49 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Ginny Love)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:50:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is Draco Redeemable?
Message-ID: <20010201235049.53436.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11487

I was thinking about this whole thing just the other
day when I was thumbing through GoF. Go re-read the
bouncing ferret scene. The part when it says mentions
-this is paraphrasing- ". . .his pale eyes welling up
with tears of pain and humiliation. . ." I find that I
feel sorry for him in that scene. He seems so sad and
pitiful. Maybe it's just the effects of too much
fanficiton, maybe if I haven't been seeing him in a
new light I'd think he got his just desserts. But now
I don't. <sigh>
 Ebony, I really agree with your comments on this. I'm
in the process of writing a fic in which Draco is 20,
and it's interesting to see how, as a person, he would
really change. I think that his devilish side will (or
would, in real life) transform into a more
impish-ness. I don't think he really *is* evil, but
growing up around death eaters. . . it messes with
your mind.

Ginny Love

__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Feb  1 23:51:51 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 23:51:51 -0000
Subject: SHIP: newbie alert, also Re: Unsappiness, slash?
In-Reply-To: <014201c08c99$32044740$aa11eda9@y1j2s0>
Message-ID: <95csqn+rm0u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11488

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> 
> Well, I guess it'd be my duty as a slasher to mention that if Harry 
and Draco got together, that probably will be the least sappiest of 
all?  Or Ron/Draco, but that's hardly my preferred pairing.
> 
> little Alex
--------------------------

<quiet happy dancing> I hereby petition that a boat for the 
Harry/Draco shippers be created. We can wave at y'all from our deck, 
(I'm envisioning some kind of speedy, flashy-looking yacht here.)

Ron/Draco? Rhysenn was working on me with that, but so far with no 
great success. Although I prefer it to Ron/Hermione. <eg>

Cassie




From john at walton.to  Fri Feb  2 00:04:14 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 00:04:14 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: H/D (the *other* H/D...)
In-Reply-To: <95csqn+rm0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B69FA9FE.B1E5%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 11489

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> <quiet happy dancing> I hereby petition that a boat for the
> Harry/Draco shippers be created. We can wave at y'all from our deck,
> (I'm envisioning some kind of speedy, flashy-looking yacht here.)

Darn. And there was I rather fancying the role of Torpedoman...::snaps
fingers:: I know! I'll be Guy In Swimsuit On Roof Of Expensive Yacht
instead. Howzat?

--John

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==
________________________________________________

John "Purple Meany" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47
=| Group Welcome Message located at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+welcomemessage.txt
=| Sing the Song of Time!
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/?action=story-read&storyid=111044

Remember: socks then shoes.
________________________________________________




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 00:24:11 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 00:24:11 -0000
Subject: More on Ron...
In-Reply-To: <200102010511.f115BFC04904@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <95cunb+62n0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11490

Kathy wrote:
"There was a time when I actually thought it possible that Ron might 
betray Harry, but after rereading the books more, I just don't see 
it.  He's far too protective of Harry and willing to sacrifice for 
him.  The Chess game in SS/PS has been hashed over endlessly, but 
what struck me recently were the scenes in PoA Ron pushes Harry out 
of the way when the dog attacks (Ron doesn't know about Sirius yet of 
course) and the way he stands up for him in the Shrieking Shack 
("You'll have to kill all 3 of us!).  I just can't see someone who 
cares about his friend that much betraying him.  It just doesn't 
tally with Ron's character at all, IMO."

I still think that it is very likely that Harry will be betrayed by 
someone. Not Ron, but someone.  The people who are closest to Harry 
are Hermione and Ron.  I can't see Hermione betraying Harry, even 
accidentally, she's too level headed. Ron OTOH is rather given to 
emotional outbursts.  His personality is, I don't know, more- 
volatile.  

I'm not even saying that I think Ron will betray Harry knowingly 
(that is if he does). Perhaps someone that Ron trusts will trick him. 
Or perhaps in a moment of anger he'll let something slip and then try 
to fix.  If he does betray Harry in some way I can see him coming 
back and trying to fix things, or dying heroically trying...

Kathy wrote:
"That said, I must say with reluctance that I think it far more 
likely (and it pains me greatly to say this) that Ron will not make 
it to the end of Book 7 alive.  We have already seen a few instances 
where he willingly "sacrificed" himself for Harry, and I suspect 
there's some foreshadowing there.  (And also very poignantly in the 
fact that Ron was the thing Harry would miss the most.) I am hoping 
against hope that this scenario does not play out, because I would be 
devastated personally, much more so than if Harry died. It doesn't 
bear thinking about."

WOW, I actually agree with you here! (goggling at the fact). For all 
practical purposes the death of Harry would also be the end of the 
canon. If Ron were to die then the reader would experience Harry (and 
Hermione and everyone else's pain) at the experience as well as 
feeling their own pain. This could easily make it more difficult.

Scott





From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Fri Feb  2 00:32:56 2001
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (rhodhry at yahoo.no)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 00:32:56 -0000
Subject: SHIP: newbie alert, also Re: Unsappiness, slash?
In-Reply-To: <95csqn+rm0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95cv7o+u7je@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11491

If I may be so frank, I suggest a destroyer instead - long, sleak 
ships - high speed (HMS Cassandra, HMS Escapade and HMS Daring all 
made 36 kts, HMS Clare made 35 kts), and high capability of upsetting 
the major shippinglanes.  And there is something slashing about the 
way their bows cut through waves...  It could operate in cooperation 
with the flotilla-leader HMS Black Lupin.  We might also recommision 
the old light cruiser HMS Dragon...  then we can do target-practise 
on HMS Pansy and HMS Petunia (yes, they really had ships in Royal 
Navy with those names - with the exception of Black Lupin, but there 
was a USS Black).  

Actually, I think HMS Dragon is best suited for your purposes - it 
fits both Draco and a gentleman who has faced a Hungarian horntail.  
We'll need 452 crewmembers, nominally.

I nominate Cassandra for CO of the HMS Dragon, but I am not certain 
about who to have for Captain (D) - Rhysenn has a strong candidature, 
but so do others.

I might add - I have hitherto seen two fics with Neville/Draco.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> > Well, I guess it'd be my duty as a slasher to mention that if
> > Harry and Draco got together, that probably will be the least 
> > sappiest of all?  Or Ron/Draco, but that's hardly my preferred 
> > pairing.
> > 
> > little Alex
> --------------------------
> 
> <quiet happy dancing> I hereby petition that a boat for the 
> Harry/Draco shippers be created. We can wave at y'all from our
> deck, (I'm envisioning some kind of speedy, flashy-looking yacht 
> here.) Ron/Draco? Rhysenn was working on me with that, but so far 
> with no great success. Although I prefer it to Ron/Hermione. <eg>
> 
> Cassie




From duo at dangerous-minds.com  Fri Feb  2 08:40:00 2001
From: duo at dangerous-minds.com (duo at dangerous-minds.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:40 PHT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Death Eater name was Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
Message-ID: <200102020033.f120Xwh02587@mail.i-next.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11492

>Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that 
>"Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for 
>Voldemort's supporters?
>Wouldn't something along the lines of "The Dark League" or "The 
>National Order of Dark Wizardry" have been much better?
>Bob

Not particularly. "Dark LEague" sounds so "Golden Age"-y. 

Death Eaters gives me a minds image of a bunch of black wolves, eyes 
luminescent in the dark hunting for their next kill. 

Nathan
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From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Fri Feb  2 00:48:06 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 00:48:06 -0000
Subject: Is there something special about Harr (PS ch.1)
In-Reply-To: <F56wAQq12LRF58tP9DL00001b90@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95d047+apab@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11493

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> Would someone who does not subscribe to the "There's Something 
Special About 
> Harry" theories please explain away PS/SS Ch. 1?  Even the opening 
seems to 
> foreshadow his unique status.

Why does the opening seem to forshadow Harry's unique status? All it 
shows is that Harry was there at V's downfall. I can well imagine 
that following 11 years of terror the wizarding world is 
indescribably grateful to an end to V and Harry provides a convenient 
figurehead, but in no way does it point to Harry being special. If 
you take evidence from the book entirely at face value, and ignore 
conjecture, then the fall of Voldemort was at Lily Potter's hands. If 
you read further into the text, it does appear that there is more to 
it and that there should be a reason as to why Voldemort lost his 
powers as well as why Harry survived the killing curse.

These both can be, and have been, explained. Lilly saved Harry, and 
Harry defeated V by being defenceless. There has been argument that 
surely these events would have transpired before during V's terror, 
but both to happen together is a longer stretch, and could well have 
only happened with Harry. There is nothing in PS ch.1 to suggest 
the "Super Harry" theory.



Dai




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 00:52:00 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 00:52:00 -0000
Subject: (CROSS-POST) FF:  TiP, Chapter 6 plug...
Message-ID: <95d0bg+10ggb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11494

...and here you thought it couldn't get any stranger.

Trouble in Paradise, Chapter 6:  Curiouser and Curiouser

http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-
read&storyid=143632&chapter=6

There's a huge midsection in there that presents one possible 
scenario for JKR-esque wizarding history in other lands.  It may not 
seem very relevant to the plot now, but several essential clues are 
embedded in all that folklore.

Also, the possibility of there being Death Eater-like societies 
around the world is a theory I'll explore in more detail via a sequel 
that Carole and I are planning, *Paradise Lost* (with apologies in 
advance to Miltion).  The Caribbean Society and the European Death 
Eaters are but two of many.  They have bigoted sisters and brothers 
on every continent... but I digress.

Read, please, read!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 00:56:55 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 00:56:55 -0000
Subject: (CROSS-POST) FF:  TiP, Chapter 6 correction
In-Reply-To: <95d0bg+10ggb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95d0kn+tn8d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11495

Two quick corrections:

> Trouble in Paradise, Chapter 6:  Curiouser and Curiouser
> 
> http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-
> read&storyid=143632&chapter=6

The direct link as typed above only works if it's all on one line of 
the e-mail.  Alternately, you can look it up by author... my fanfic 
pen name is AngieJ.

> Also, the possibility of there being Death Eater-like societies 
> around the world is a theory I'll explore in more detail via a 
sequel 
> that Carole and I are planning, *Paradise Lost* (with apologies in 
> advance to Miltion).  

Take the second "i" out of Milton.  Yes, I was and am an English 
major.  So I suppose the blind bard is due yet another "mea culpa" 
for my lack of proofreading.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From malinaschick at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 01:07:22 2001
From: malinaschick at hotmail.com (Steph)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 01:07:22 -0000
Subject: Some GoF speculations
Message-ID: <95d18a+uaur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11496

I hate it when I have too much to do and get behind on emails...At 
least I have good reason-COUNTY BAND!!! Anyway, I've been re-reading 
GoF and I've had some speculations. So, here goes.

#1) Which arm is Harry's wand arm? I went back to SS and looked up Mr. 
Ollivander's scene and it's implied that his wand arm is his right 
arm. If that's true, then why is he using his left arm on the cover of 
GoF?

#2) I know we've been debating Ron and Harry's situation lately. Now, 
I may be impartial to Ron because well, he's cute-but i'm trying to 
remain neutrual. I think that Hermione raises a good point. He's 
always overshadowed by his brothers, namely the three oldest, and 
havign to live up to their shadows. I kno the feeling, and it's hard. 
Eventually, you will crack and this was probably the last straw for 
Ron. It also makes me sad to read "Resisting the urge to give Ron a 
good hard poke in the back of the head..." How do Ron and Harry go so 
quickly from being best friends to being total enemies? We know how 
Harry looks at this as so harsh to Ron imo...Do you ever wonder what 
it really feels like to be in Ron's shoes? How does he feel. I relate 
to the kid and I feel bad for him. That's me....

#3) And, was it just me, or does Cho seem like a flirt? She doesn't 
wear a Cedric pin and she's all "I really hope you do well." And then 
she turns around and goes with Cedric. Or, is she just trying to get 
in the good with the champion? Woah-does that sound harsh. What does 
Cho really want?

Well, that's all for now! :)
@~~~
Steph

"I COMFORTED THE MURDERI




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 01:30:42 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 01:30:42 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
Message-ID: <F276v8KudyJNgGWzOPj00002dce@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11497

I wrote:

> >Many have noted parallels between Voldemort and Hitler. I'd like to point
> >out that both of the World Wars were mainly fought in Europe. 
>Technically
> >speaking, "world war" is a misnomer, since the majority of the world's
> >population might not have had any clear idea of what was going on.
> >
> >However, because of the relative dominance of the West over the past half
> >millennium, whatever happens in the Western, "developed" nations has 
>echoes> >in the so-called "Third World".

Jane replied:
>FYI, WWII was fought in Europe, Asia and North America (if you count
>Hawaii). Japan, China and Russia were heavily involved in the War.

Yes, I know this.  However, none of the above are considered "Third World" 
countries... I'm not sure about China, but it seems to have evaded the 
"underdeveloped" stamp in the past.

And subsequent messages in the thread did not include all of the major world 
regions.  <vbg>

I'll repeat what I said--because of Western dominance, whatever happens in 
the "developed" world has echoes in the "Third World".  I'm not saying that 
WWII was a localized phenomenon.  However, day-to-day existence was not 
affected for hundreds of millions, even billions of people.  I'll even go so 
far to say that millions may not have even known what was going on.

Anyway, the original question was whether or not V's first push affected 
just England, just Europe, or the rest of the magical world.

If WWII was worldwide, then so was VW1.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ


<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
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From schmiksue at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 03:21:48 2001
From: schmiksue at yahoo.com (schmiksue at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 03:21:48 -0000
Subject: Any more room on good ship R/H?
Message-ID: <95d94c+p36g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11499

Well, I'll see if this works this time...

Hi.  I go as College Girl at ff.net and Sugarquill, and I've heard a 
lot about this site.  Anyway, I love the ship analogies.  I probably 
won't post much, just wondered if you had room for one more on the 
good ship R/H.  I could really use a nice warm cruse (Iowa weather is 
very cold right now).

I should warn you though, being also a very big H/G supporter, I may 
have to hop from boat to boat.

Here's to warm waters!!
College Girl




From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Feb  2 03:29:54 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:29:54 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Death Eater name was Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
In-Reply-To: <200102020033.f120Xwh02587@mail.i-next.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCEIOCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11500

Death Eaters -- perhaps Voldemort retains the loyalty of his supporters by
promising them that one day they, too, will be immortal like him (they will
"eat" death).  They'd sell their souls for eternal life and power over
weaker beings...

SML

-----Original Message-----
From: duo at dangerous-minds.com [mailto:duo at dangerous-minds.com]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 1:40 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Death Eater name was Voldemorts Sphere of
Influence


>Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that
>"Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for
>Voldemort's supporters?
>Wouldn't something along the lines of "The Dark League" or "The
>National Order of Dark Wizardry" have been much better?
>Bob

Not particularly. "Dark LEague" sounds so "Golden Age"-y.

Death Eaters gives me a minds image of a bunch of black wolves, eyes
luminescent in the dark hunting for their next kill.

Nathan




From sage016 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 03:39:37 2001
From: sage016 at yahoo.com (Kristen)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 03:39:37 -0000
Subject: book5?
Message-ID: <95da5p+e9jd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11501

does anyone know when book 5 will be out?  its been bothering me for 
months now. thanks

kriste




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Feb  2 03:46:29 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 03:46:29 -0000
Subject: book5?
In-Reply-To: <95da5p+e9jd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95dail+j147@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11502

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kristen" <sage016 at y...> wrote:
> does anyone know when book 5 will be out?  its been bothering me 
for 
> months now. thanks
> 
> kriste

Book 5 (Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix) will be out 
*sometime* in 2002.  Until then, may I recommend "feeding the Beast" 
by reading fanfic?  Check under Database on this group.  It's the 
only thing that's keeping me sane right now--that and re-reading the 
books for the 20th time!

Peace and Plenty,

Parker




From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 03:46:46 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Ginny Love)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:46:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SHIP: newbie alert, also Re: Unsappiness, slash?
Message-ID: <20010202034646.55535.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11503

Cassie wrote (and danced):
><quiet happy dancing> I hereby petition that a boat
>for >the 
>Harry/Draco shippers be created. We can wave at y'all
>from our deck, 
>(I'm envisioning some kind of speedy, flashy-looking
>yacht here.)

 Oooooh! I want to be on that ship! Yes, yes, yes!
While I still stick to my R/H (that would be Hermione
^_~)guns, I will  *always and forever* be a
Draco/Harry shipper. <sigh> It's just so deliciously
improbable! A *really* forbiddin love affair. Ahhhhh.
. .I was waiting for a ship D/H to be christened. 

Cassie again: 
>Ron/Draco? Rhysenn was working on me with that, but
so >far with no 
>great success. Although I prefer it to Ron/Hermione.
><eg>

 My, you're a tough one, Cassie!

Ginny "Have Another Cocktail On Me" Love


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From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 03:58:09 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 03:58:09 -0000
Subject: Hermione regarding Neville
In-Reply-To: <3A78AD60.AC2DAA34@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <95db8h+5kjn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11504

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, on the first train ride to Hogwarts, upon being introduced to 
Harry, Hermione says:
> 
> > "Are you really?" said Hermione. "I know all about you, of 
course -- I
> > got a few extra books. for background reading, and you're in 
Modern
> > Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Great
> > Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century.
> > <SNIP>
> > "Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything I could 
if it
> > was me," said Hermione.
> >

I remembered this, but I hadn't remembered quite how rude it was.  

> And this is what she says to Harry The Orphan - while she's 
standing right there with Neville, whose name she knows (at least his 
first name) - and I am now wondering if, upon
> meeting Neville, she said something like,
> "Oh, I know all about your parents - they're in Modern Magical 
History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Tragidies of the 
Reign Of You Know Who..."
> and he still went walking around with her.

You're right, it'd be kinda odd for him to hear her talking like that 
and then hang out with her, but she's pretty forceful and he's used 
to being led around by his gran.  

> Then again, in the long run, Harry didn't hold her almost 
completely insensitive comments to him against her in the long 
run...perhaps as the books go by, this will be counted by
> the Neville Is Tougher & Braver Than He Looks people as another 
point in his favor...?
> 
That's true.  I guess he's known about it all his life, and I doubt 
that tough-as-nails Gran of his soft-sells the issue, so he can 
probably deal with it.  He may not have a hard time talking about it, 
he may just have learned that other people do, and he's certainly not 
one to force any topic of conversation himself.

Kimberly




From duo at dangerous-minds.com  Fri Feb  2 12:09:00 2001
From: duo at dangerous-minds.com (duo at dangerous-minds.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:09 PHT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] WW2 analogy Re: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
Message-ID: <200102020403.f12435h24130@mail.i-next.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11505

<SEPARARE!>

Hmm... speaking as someone far, FAR away from Europe (think eight hours 
ahead of Europe), I feel there's something amiss with the analogy of WW2 
to the 2nd Voldemort War. 

WW2 can be considered as two fronts, European and Asian occurring 
simultaneously. I don't think Japan asked for a go-ahead from Germany to 
initiate attacks on Nanking, neither did the Germans warn Tokyo that they 
were invading Poland. Nor do I recall any logistical support for both 
sides. 

What's this got to do with our favorite unnameable? If this is WW2, 
where's the other malevolent and yet independent force that'll harass 
Hogwarts from the rear? 

If that occurs, my money's on the blood-drinking gods of South America. 
(shiver).

Just my rapidly devaluing pesos.

Nathan
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From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 04:22:32 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:22:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Draco Redeemable? (was Re: The Death of Cedric)
Message-ID: <F45MCr2ccWTBhJhZmuX00002345@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11506

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many of you think Draco will come over to Dumbledore's side by the end 
of Book 7?  Or will he die?  Or will he just become a second Lucius, biding 
his time and plotting to become a Dark Lord himself?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I HOPE that Draco is redeemable.  I think that the fact thathe depends so 
strongly on his father shows us something.  Also, I can't help but think 
that JKR would not show us the Imperius curse if she wasnt going to use it 
in a very important role, more so than taunting Harry and keeping Barty JR 
in check...I like to think that he is redeemable, that he is under his 
father's control, and Lucius is going to die and leave Draco free to realize 
the error of his ways(I am a HUGE Draco fan, little smot that he is<vbg>).  
In reality, I think that he may NEVER help Harry, but I do't see him 
partaking necessarily in the death eater's activities.  But who knows, JKR's 
mind works in twisted ways. <vbg>  I have stopped trying to guess what she 
is going to do, and focussed on what I want to happen(hey, if it doesn't, I 
still worship JKR and I will love the story no natter what)

Stephanie Malfoy
Who FINALLY caught up with my 500 emails...
_________________________________________________________________
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From bbennett at joymail.com  Fri Feb  2 04:32:40 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 04:32:40 -0000
Subject: ships, Ron, etc.
In-Reply-To: <95b2jd+g4u0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95dd98+4ucj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11508

  
Cassie wrote (re: SugarQuill):

>  There's a middle ground between Weasley-bashing and utter 
Ron-worship, and I get the feeling that even that middle ground 
wouldn't be tolerated. >

Well,  I hang out there and I it's known that I *obssessively* 
follow your stories AND have recommended PoU, so if they 
tolerate me, it can't be too bad, can it? :*) Really, There's been a 
lot of interesting conversation at Sugarquill, and Ron is most 
definitely not hero worshipped (ok, maybe a joking comment or 
two. And talk about the Weasley's pretty red hair. But that's it - I 
promise). You mentioned you got this impression from posts to 
HP4GU, but I see very few  SugarQuill "regulars" who are active 
here (Kathy and Zsenya aside. Hi Kathy! Hi Zsenya!).  You should 
stop back to visit sometime - it's a great site.


Penny wrote:
> Thanks Cassie!  There's definitely a middle-ground, and that's 
where I fall.  I don't think it qualifies as "Weasley-bashing" to 
consider the theoretical possibility that Ron's jealous insecurity 
& obvious desire  for wealth and recognition might make him a 
very vulnerable target for Voldemort & the dark side.  But, 
anything short of "Ron would *never* betray his friend Harry, not 
under *any* circumstances" seems to be labelled as 
"Weasley-bashing." >

I don't think that's Weasley bashing either, and it's an interesting 
theory.  I personally don't see from the books that being jealous 
of his consistently in-the-limelight-famous-best friend, coming 
from a poor family and wishing for more money, or being one of 
seven children and feeling overlooked is indicative he'll betray 
his friends - all of those reactions seem normal for a kid with 
those kind of things going on, and I think he's handled his 
emotions reasonably and realistically well (albeit after acting like 
- what's the phrase Cassie's Draco uses? - a speccy little git). 
But I suppose I could be wrong :*) 

Penny also wrote: 
> I was just noting that R/H types don't have any
 problem criticizing other characters but they seem to fairly bristle 
at the slightest criticism of Ron.  This criticism that gets dished 
out to the other characters from R/H types extends not only to 
Harry (everything from boring to inconsiderate/selfish) and 
Hermione (bossy know-it-all hen-pecking shrew, who 
nonetheless "should" be paired up with Ron (inexplicably)) but 
also to Sirius and a wide variety of other characters.  I know I can 
be touchy about Hermione, but I usually support what I'm saying 
with reasoned arguments from the canon (as to why she isn't 
bossy still, etc.) or at least that's my intent.  Don't  get me wrong: 
it's perfectly fine for people to think Harry is selfish or Hermione 
is bossy & to post their reasons why.  But, I just don't understand 
why *any* criticism of Ron should be met with such emotional 
"how dare you" reactions from people.>

See my  "speccy little git" comment above. Ron can definitely be 
a brat, and so can Harry (I can't criticize Hermione because I 
sympathize with her and I think she's right to boss Harry and Ron 
around - honestly, they need all the help they can get). I've read 
the same sort of "how dare you" reactions regarding criticism of 
Harry here and on the PoU list, so it's not an exclusive trait.  
You're right, Penny - we can all get a little too wrapped up in the 
process of defending our favorite characters.    

> > Cassie said:
> > > >I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has 
feeling for Ginny
> > Kathy: And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that 
doesn't stop people  from believing in H/H either.
> > Cassie: And I see no evidence that Hermione likes Ron, but 
that  doesn't stop people from believing in R/H.
> Penny wrote: 
> Thanks Cassie!  <eg>

I agree with Cassie - I haven't seen evidence in the books that 
Harry likes Ginny, either, and as it's been brought up here before, 
her character simply hasn't been fully fleshed out enough yet. I've 
enjoyed reading fan-written interpretations of her very much, and 
it'll be interesting to see what's done with her in the next book. As 
for Hermione and Ron, the reason I've personally written things 
with a R/H slant is because that's what I picked up from the book 
(he likes her and vice-versa, although he's more obvious).  The 
books are written from Harry's POV, and since we know how he 
feels about other characters, it seems we would also know if he 
likes Hermione as more than a friend.  I suppose there's no 
reason that won't change (that JKR said there's something going 
on between R&H aside), but I haven't seen evidence of that yet. 

Of course, I also understand some think that because Harry 
notices Ron's bare ankles he's hot for him, so maybe all of the 
R/H H/H people are in for a surprise.  :*)

Regards,
B.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Feb  2 04:51:27 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:51:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Death Eater Name
References: <981083729.11522.67337.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001401c08cd3$cdbede40$eac54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11509

Message: 19
   Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:40 PHT
   From: duo at dangerous-minds.com
Subject: The Death Eater name was Voldemorts Sphere of Influence

>Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that
>"Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for
>Voldemort's supporters?
>Wouldn't something along the lines of "The Dark League" or "The
>National Order of Dark Wizardry" have been much better?
>Bob

To us Freudians, the name Death-Eaters is redolent of both the "oral" phase
of childhood development and the dread and awe-inspiring Thanatos, The Death
Instinct - i.e., simultaneously childishly immature and transcendentally
sinister and destructive.  The name Death-Eaters literally coruscates with
Dark Magic, and I would count it as one of JKR's most serendipitous
coinages. The National Order of Dark Wizardry OTOH sounds like something
that would have an office on K Street and extensive contacts on Capitol Hill
and the Commerce Dep't.

     - CMC




From mschub at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 04:45:25 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 04:45:25 -0000
Subject: Neville and his parents
In-Reply-To: <95db8h+5kjn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95de15+llr3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11510

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:

> That's true.  I guess he's known about it all his life, and I doubt 
> that tough-as-nails Gran of his soft-sells the issue, so he can 
> probably deal with it.  He may not have a hard time talking about 
it, 
> he may just have learned that other people do, and he's certainly 
not 
> one to force any topic of conversation himself.

Alright, I have a problem with the timeline here. We know that Neville 
was "raised by" his grandmother, right? Which would lead us to 
Neville's parents being killed when he was very young. We assume that 
Crouch Jr. was caught and placed in Azkaban very shortly after the 
attack on the Longbottoms (or do we know that?). We know that Crouch 
Jr. was out within a year. So assuming all this was true, Crouch Sr. 
was able to keep Crouch Jr. under the Imperius curse for (assuming 
Neville was 1 year old when the attack took place) TWELVE YEARS? (give 
or take) It seems wrong to me. I had always assumed (not sure why) 
that Crouch Jr. had broken out of the Imperius Curse like a year or so 
after being placed under it. Actually, I'm seeming to recall a scene 
somwhere at the very end of GoF, during Crouch's confession, where he 
says something to the effect of Winky convinced his father to let him 
see the Quidditch World Cup, he used to love Quidditch and he hadn't 
seen any in x years. Does such a scene exist? And, if so, what's the 
x? I have the impression of it being around 5. Which would mean 4 
years under the Imperius Curse, and Neville being 9 when his parents 
were killed. Or maybe he just says "since before going to Azkaban". I 
don't know. The whole thing just seems wonky to me.
-Mike





From duo at dangerous-minds.com  Fri Feb  2 13:06:00 2001
From: duo at dangerous-minds.com (duo at dangerous-minds.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:06 PHT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thanatos? was The Death Eater Name
Message-ID: <200102020500.f1250Jh28847@mail.i-next.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11511

An apparent facet of my education has been sadly neglected. What is this 
Thanatos? 

Nathan
-seeing something to spring a discussion off of....
_________________________________________________________
Powered by I-neXt WebM at iL - http://www.i-next.net



From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 05:28:28 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 05:28:28 -0000
Subject: AD's reasoning on Nov. 1 (was Who should raise Harry)
In-Reply-To: <95anvb+uncm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95dghs+82fb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11512

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> 
> Would someone who does not subscribe to the "There's Something 
> Special About Harry" theories please explain away PS/SS Ch. 1?  
Even 
> the opening seems to foreshadow his unique status.


I don't think there's nothing special about Harry, just that he 
doesn't have superpowers beyond those of other powerful wizards, so I 
don't know for sure if I qualify, but I'll give it a shot!


> What do you think of the choice he made for Harry's upbringing?
> 
> It has been argued here that the Dursleys were abusive.  Child 
abuse 
> of any form IMO is... well, I'll keep my strong opinions on that 
> subject to myself.  

Aside from the topic at hand:
Couldn't agree with you more.  The Dursleys should be... well, they 
should either turn around completely or burn!  Sorry.  


But today I realized that it was the wise Albus 
> Dumbledore that *chose* for Harry to live with the Dursleys.  
(Quick 
> rhetorical question--does the Hogwarts Headmaster usually function 
as 
> the Department of Social Services equivalent in such cases?  Or is 
> there a Ministry agency that usually handles such cases?)


I know it was mean to be rhetorical, but that's a good question.  
Maybe it had something to do with the Fidelus thing?  Maybe not 
everyone knew where to find them even after Voldemort trashed the 
house?  Dunno - it is odd.  


> My question--did Dumbledore make the wisest choice possible?  Did 
>he make the *only* choice possible?
 

Hard to say - we haven't seen what his alternatives were.


> If there is nothing special about Harry, and if Voldemort is not 
evil 
> incarnate in this fictional universe... why did Harry grow up in 
that 
> cupboard under the stairs?  


I thought Voldemort *was* pretty close to evil incarnate, which would 
explain the need to keep Harry hidden.  As for the Dursleys, 
Dumbledore had no way of knowing they would be abusive, he only knew 
they were his family.


Wouldn't adoption by sympathetic Muggles 
> have been a plausible solution?  


If he hadn't had family to go to, yes.



> Why did Harry have to grow up with a blood relative in the first 
> place?

<I snipped somewhere in here, but I forgot exactly where>


It's traditionally what happens to orphans when there's family, 
especially if their designated guardians are in prison.


> Why was it so important that this particular child lived?


I'd like to think it's important that *all* children live.  

 
> I'm reminded of other children who were similarly protected in 
other 
> narratives.  All of those children were *different* in some way.


Harry is different.  He was the catalyst to the downfall of the most 
evil wizard ever.  I just don't think it happened because he's got 
super powers.  You mentioned that the opening seemed to foreshadow 
his status.  I think you're right, he's "The Boy Who Lived".

Kimberly




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Feb  2 05:53:02 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 05:53:02 -0000
Subject: H/H Dull & R/H Loads of Fun?  (contrarian view)
In-Reply-To: <3A74341B.1D0BB0ED@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95dhvu+u6h3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11513

> Kelley wrote:
>>And I feel exactly the same Kathy, R/H has much more 'fun'-> 
>>potential than H/H to me.  I know, H/H-ers, I know, that doesn't 
>>counter 'H/H are more suited in the real world' etc., but come on, 
>>be honest:  doesn't H/H just seem a tad dull?
> 
> Penny wrote;
> Well .... since you asked my opinion:  No!  I don't see H/H as dull 
at all.
> 
> But, I also don't see R/H as being necessarily all fun at all.  
See ....
> I don't regard bickering & spatting as fun (or an aphrodisiac!).  
I've had relationships in the past that were all bickering (or 
worse!), and it was emotionally exhausting to me.  I find it to be 
absolutely positively zero fun to be picking at each other 
constantly.  So, that just goes to my perception about how a good 
relationship works.  I acknowledge that this modus operandi works for 
others.  But, it sure wouldn't have worked for me.  I can count on 
both hands the number of fights my husband & I've had in over 10 
years of knowing one another.
> That style of relationship is just more my cup of tea so the whole 
idea of R/H is lost on me from the beginning, if for no other reason 
than I can't fathom bickering and fighting constantly as a foundation 
for a solid, compatible relationship.  I identify so strongly with 
Hermione that I also have a hard time picturing *her* wanting that 
either.
> That's a big part of my mental block against R/H.<<<<<<<<<<<<

Penny, in real life, I agree with everything you said.  If I were 
looking for a real-life partner for myself in the books, I'd go with 
Lupin.  Or, even a male Hermione, minus the bossiness.  I suppose I'm 
just not looking to canon for what I think would be best in real 
life.  I do believe R/H will be a more entertaining pairing in 
canon.  I love Harry, but he really does seem a bit uninteresting to 
me.  Ron and Herm have far more vivid personalities.  Does it seem to 
you (and any other H/H-ers) that R & He have no interaction beyond 
bickering?  I mean that in an absolutely non-inflammatory way, this 
is genuine curiosity.  They do have their arguments, but there've 
been arguments between all three so far.  I think Ron's sarcasm and 
Herm's bossiness/know-it-all traits are due to their immaturity.  I 
know she's quite mature for her age; what I mean is they're only 
fourteen years old.  I'm certainly hoping/expecting these aspects 
will be affected by their maturing in the next three books.  Can you 
give some idea of what spark there might be in an H/H pairing?  All I 
can picture is Herm helping Harry fight against Vold, just as it's 
been going.  I just can't see any romantic chemistry, so far in 
canon, and even when trying to imagine it in a future sense.  Just 
doesn't seem very conducive for any real passion.

> >Kelley wrote; 
> > I saw  R/H from canon, before I ever even found this group.  When 
I first learned of the H/H-ers, and how so many of them felt this way
> > from canon (before seeing PoU), I could not figure out where they 
got it from.
>
>Penny wrote; 
> That's funny -- there are tons of us H/H'ers who have talked to 
people who stare blankly and say, "There are really people who think 
Ron & Hermione will end up together?  Nah, that's too obvious.  The 
subtext is all there for H/H."
> 
> All a matter of perception I guess -- eh?  <vbg> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Huh.  Perception is right.  Personally, I've never discussed HP with 
anyone offline, and ship preferences only within this group so far.  
I do identify with Herm in bits, but not the way you do.  I don't 
seem to have any one character that I totally identify with, just 
aspects of many.  Maybe that's part of it; the books aren't clicking 
in with me in any 'real world' sort of way.  I'll have to chew on 
that for a while.

Kelley





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 05:55:01 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 05:55:01 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <F1333DrhVRAGMd4uzHN00001c3a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95di3m+be24@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11514

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> From SS, Ch. 1 (p. 11 PB)--
> 
> "The owls are nothing next to the rumors that are flying around.  
You know 
> what everyone's saying?  About why (Voldemort)'s disappeared?  
About what 
> finally stopped him?"
> --McGonagall
> 
> If there's nothing special about Harry, why is the opening chapter 
of the 
> series called "The Boy Who Lived"?  Just a creative hook?  Simply 
conveying 
> obvious information?  Or... is there truth in advertising?


I was just trying to address your questions in your last two posts 
about this, and what's funny is, I used the same quote.  I mentioned 
in that other reply also that I do think Harry is special, just not a 
superhero.  He's "The Boy Who Lived", but I don't think he's The Boy 
Who Singlehandedly Defeated Evil Because He's Something Different 
>From All The Other Wizards.  The fact that he lived makes him clearly 
different, but it doesn't necessarily follow that he belongs in a 
Marvel Comic ;).  At least I hope not.

 
> At this point, Dumbledore knows that the Potters are dead.  When 
answering 
> Minerva, he doesn't comment on a mother's love or the power of 
ancient magic 
> from the dawn of time.  He says...
> 
> "We can guess.  We may never know."
>
> While his response may shoot holes into the Prophecy and Heir-of-
Gryffindor 
> arguments, it doesn't count as a point for the 
> "Harry-as-ordinary-boy-caught-in-extraordinary-circumstances" camp, 
either.  
> Quite the contrary.

I think you're asking a lot of Dumbledore.  He wasn't there, and he 
can't know the details.  He can't know that Lily died to protect 
Harry.  He only knows the parents are dead, Harry's not, and the Big 
Bad seems to have disappeared, at least for the moment.


> This afternoon, I had a long talk with a parent who was introduced 
to Harry 
> Potter this month via her son's reading SS for my class.  <snip> 
> "There's something about Harry..." was her theme for 15 minutes.  
Prompted 
> by one question from me:  "How did you and your son like the book?"
> 
> My thoughts?  If JKR's point at the end is that ordinary people do 
> extraordinary things in extraordinary circumstances, I buy it.
> 
> However, isn't the tale of an extraordinary kid who does ordinary 
things 
> just as worthwhile?  *Especially* in the fantasy genre?
> 
> I'd say that Harry Potter falls into the second category.
> 

I'd say it's worthwhile, but Harry's not doing ordinary things.  His 
circumstances and his actions *are* extraordinary, so that's not 
really an option.
But a story about extraordinary people doing ordinary *or* 
extraordinary things would both be fine.  I just don't think that's 
what I'm reading.

If it were I don't think Dumbledore would emphasize A. That Harry's 
actions and decisions are *the thing* that makes him who he is, and 
B. That if one person fails to defeat evil, it just takes someone 
else "willing to fight what seems like a loosing battle" to continue 
to thwart it.  I think those things are meant to encourage people to 
feel that ordinary people *can* do extraordinary things.  So to turn 
around and show the hero to only be capable of being the hero because 
he has super-powers would be counterproductive.

Side-note:  Can anyone tell me if JKR considers her stories 
fantasies?  It never really occurred to me to think of them as a 
particular genre.  I've not gotten this excited about the fantasy 
genre before, so I was wondering if maybe I should rethink.

Kimberly




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Feb  2 05:39:35 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:39:35 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Shorthand terms and acronyms used here - updated.
Message-ID: <014701c08cda$87178a80$563770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11515

I've updated our list of acronyms and other shorthand, so if you're scratching your head when you see CoS, OTOH, FITD or <bg>, you might find it useful.

The list also includes accepted header prefixes for messages posted here.  At the moment, we are using OT, SHIP and FF ( and ADMIN for Moderator messages only), but we may add others, as appropriate.  These prefixes are intended to help members identify message categories, which is important when there are so many messages to scan each day, so please use them if your message falls into one of the categories.

The shorthand list (html version) can be viewed at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/shorthand.htm
 
If you see extra blank lines in there, that's my doing.  I'm not sure why it's doing that <bg>.

Neil
Moderator Team

_____________________________________
Flying-Ford-Anglia

"My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms but 
one month into your fabulous Kwikspell course 
I succeeded in turning her into a yak!  
- Thank you Kwikspell!"

[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Fri Feb  2 06:20:45 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 06:20:45 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95di3m+be24@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95djjt+7a3u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11516

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:

> 
> I'd say it's worthwhile, but Harry's not doing ordinary things.  
His  circumstances and his actions *are* extraordinary, so that's not 
> really an option. But a story about extraordinary people doing 
ordinary *or*  extraordinary things would both be fine.  I just don't 
think that's  what I'm reading.
> 
> If it were I don't think Dumbledore would emphasize A. That Harry's 
> actions and decisions are *the thing* that makes him who he is, and 
> B. That if one person fails to defeat evil, it just takes someone 
> else "willing to fight what seems like a loosing battle" to 
continue  to thwart it.  I think those things are meant to encourage 
people to  feel that ordinary people *can* do extraordinary things.  
So to turn   around and show the hero to only be capable of being the 
hero because  he has super-powers would be counterproductive.


****

Harry being special/having special powers and Harry being the 
Destined One Meant To Save The World are not necessarily the same 
thing. 

I'd agree that he is  most likely not a special kind of wizard, 
though as for amazing  abilities no other (living) wizard has, JKR 
has *already* given him  some of those: Parseltongue, prophetic 
dreams, the ability to resist the Imperius Curse, etc. (That some of 
these powers result from the transference of some of Voldemort's 
abilites onto Harry does not, IMHO, impact this argument. Powers are 
powers, whatever their origin.) Does the fact that Harry possesses 
the power to resist the Imperius Curse, something much older and more 
experienced wizards (Barty Crouch, Viktor Krum) don't, make me think 
he's special? Yes. Does it make him a superhero? No. Ditto the fact 
that without Harry's Parseltongue ability he never would have made it 
into the Chamber of Secrets to save Ginny. Does that make him 
Spiderman? Not really. Is it a special ability? Yes.  

Even if it did turn out that Harry possesses extraordinary  
powers that are not common to the wizarding population at large 
(outside of the ones he already has), that in no way diminishes his 
essential humanity or contravenes the message that "It is our
choices that make  us what we are, far more than our abilities." 
Although JKR might  choose to endow Harry with powers, he may or may 
not choose to use them at all, and more importantly he must decide 
towards what ends he should employ them.  His character formation, 
not to mention the fate of the wizarding world <g> rests on his own 
individual personal and moral decisions, whether he has abilites 
outside the norm or not. 

There is a middle ground between "Harry is completely normal and 
possesses no special abilities that everyone else in his year at 
Hogwarts does not possess in equal measure" and "Harry is Batman." 
That's where I stand. (Although he would look lovely in the Batman 
suit.)

Cassie





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Feb  2 06:27:04 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 06:27:04 -0000
Subject: H/H Dull & R/H Loads of Fun?  (contrarian view)
In-Reply-To: <951q53+qbdh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95djvo+gefe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11517

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> > Kelley wrote:
> > > And I feel exactly the same Kathy, R/H has much more 'fun'-
potential than H/H to me.  I know, H/H-ers, I know, that doesn't 
counter 'H/H are more suited in the real world' etc., but come on, be 
honest:  doesn't H/H just seem a tad dull?
> >Penny wrote: 
> > Well .... since you asked my opinion:  No!  I don't see H/H as 
dull at all.
>
> Cassie wrote: 
> *chortles* Dull? I'd have to say that far before I susbscribe to 
> the "H/H are more suited in the real world" theory, I subscribe to 
> the "It's just much more interesting" theory. I agree with Penny 
that Ron and Hermione's endless whining at each other seems to me to 
be far less entertaining angry sparks (she's got more entertaining 
angry sparks with Draco than Ron) that tedious bickering.<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, I will say that if there had been any romantic interest toward 
the other from either Herm or Draco, I might be a different shipper.  
There's nothing from canon Draco so far, to be considered attractive.

> Cassie wrote:
>(Even Harry finds it tedious..he takes refuge in the owlery to avoid 
them.) I guess it's a never-the-twain shall meet situation, because 
while I see endless interesting possibilities in H/H (Harry has to go 
off and save the world; Hermione, being the smartest witch of her 
generation, can help, him, fight with him, be an equal partner to 
him) <<<<<<<<<<<<<

Okay, but we're already getting this from Harry and Hermione.  He's 
already saving the world with help from Herm (and others as well, of 
course).  If you take away this plotline, what is there for them?  If 
they weren't fighting Vold, what would be happening with them?

> Cassie:
>I just don't at all see the fun in R/H. I just... don't see it. <g> 
I remember when I first wanted to write an HP fanfiction, I knew I 
> wanted a romance and I knew I wanted it to be either H/H or 
H/D....it just didn't occur to me to write R/H because I didn't think 
I could wring a single interesting situation out of it. <eg> Maybe 
I'll pull an Ebony and try to force myself to write an R/H, just to 
see if I can do it.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hehheh, well I'd love to see it.  Maybe the 'fun' in those two is the 
idea that others can see it (their attraction/feelings/whatever for 
one another), but they can't or don't or won't yet.  Like JKR 
says "Ron doesn't know it yet."  In a vague sense, it's similar 
to 'the lady doth protest too much'.  I'd rather it be bickering than 
gooey mush between them.  And, yes, I'd like it to be neither of 
those...

Kelley--who does have 'Hermione' hair...





From nykteris at polbox.com  Fri Feb  2 06:46:52 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:46:52 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' family 
References: <01c08b5b$f3307d60$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <001701c08ce4$0cb38e60$a9604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 11518


> To my best knowledge no relative is ever mentioned. We also know nothing
> about Snape's family. I'd laugh my head off if these two tall, thin,
> black-haired men turned out to be relatives...
> >
> Monika Z.

Yes! You are genius! What do you think? Did Caligula Snape have more wives
or rather love - affairs, because Sirius has different surname? Or maybe
Snape Senior didn't want to confirm that SB was his son and that's the real
reason of Severus&Sirius' arguments. And they both don't take baths very
often... ;-)

Katarzyna

> I admire your good taste, Katarzyna :-). If I was a witch I'd call my son
> Severus without hesitation. As a matter of fact, if I was a witch, I'd be
> only too happy to be able to call my boy Severus Snape Jr. But his father
> would have to get used to taking baths first ;-)))

Don't make fun of me! Are you saying you are not a witch? ;-)))))))

* * *
> Przyznam sie, ze troche sie dziwie, ze im moj "odp." przeszkadza. Ale nic,
> bede zmieniac recznie. Ty nie masz takiego problemu?
>
> Monika

Coz, do tej pory zmienialam recznie... Swoja droga ludzie, ktorzy znaja
wszystkie skroty rodzialow HP, moga chyba uwzglednic jeszcze jeden ;-)









------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ---------------------
www.mBank.com.pl bank przez Internet, telefon, WAP. 24/7/365
 Rocznie efektywnie 16,6% na ROR, 17,8% na rachunku a vista
------------------------------------------------------------





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 08:41:44 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 02:41:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Suggestion to decrease the volume
References: <95amq4+g3as@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <026201c08cf3$f9ca4c20$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11519

OH, I don't mind getting them one by one.  There's something about digest
that annoys me, and I tend to not examine it as closely.

Thanks for the idea, though! :)

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <msl at fc.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 9:56 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Suggestion to decrease the volume


> May I humbly dissent?  If you can't handle the volume, try switching
> to digest mode.  Then you'll get a table of contents with each digest
> and you can skim one digest, focusing on the meat that interests you,
> much more quickly than you can read 25 separate messages. I skim most
> of the shipper stuff myself, but there are nuggets of gold in there
> sometimes and I don't want to miss them.
>
> marvin
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> >
> > Joywitch
> > I can dearly see where you're coming from.  My own ship dead in the
> water
> > before it begins (me too Simon Biber!), I am only slightly into the
> other
> > ships; and tend to delete those first (sorry guys)!  I just can't
> handle the
> > volume via email otherwise...
> >
> > At least my harddrive doesn't complain about the temp. space taken
> up before
> > I read them. :)
> >
> > May I second your motion?
> >
>
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>




From shaanhp at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 09:08:55 2001
From: shaanhp at yahoo.com (shaanhp at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:08:55 -0000
Subject: In defense of Ginny <again> and such (from a 'newbie')
In-Reply-To: <950dlg+c9tc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95dtf7+8964@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11520

Hello,

I heard about this site from Sugarquill (where I go as Firoza) and 
have been hesitent to tread these H/H waters (and probably after this 
post will go back to lurking, Sugarquill suites me just fine ;-) but 
I have to jump in and agree with the post below. Just adding my small 
voice to G/H and adding my name to the Good Ship R/H (LOL, what a 
concept- ships/shippers, hilarious!). 

Now just to ramble a bit, I have read PoU, ASA, DD and enjoyed the 
stories, but their pairings quite frankly don't ring true to me 
(despite their awesome and talented writers). As for the comment
(don't remember exactly who said it) that H/H is Reality (or 
something to that effect) I would like to just say: is the HP 
world 'Realistic'? I thought it was a fantasy, as in NOT like the 
real world :-) So maybe H/G and R/H might not work in the real world 
(there ARE exceptions, if you read below you'll see mine ;-) but the 
beauty of fantasy IMO is that things that may not happen in 
the 'REAL' world CAN happen here. So to me R/H and H/G are more 
plausible (I believe the concepts were One Big Happy Family and Hero 
Gets the Girl?). If Ron wasn't in the picture and JKR had not given 
huge hints of R/H in GoF, HGTG would fit since this IS a fantasy. BUT 
the presence of Ron AND Ginny makes OBHF make MORE sense fantasy-wise 
IMO than MERELY HGTG, because frankly in general neither OBGF nor 
HGTG really happen in the REAL world, now do they?  

I read all four books before reading ANY fanfics and was 
flabbergasted to say the least that there were H/H ers. To me R/H 
seemed to be where JKR was going and only recently since JKR said 
that Ginny would play more of a role in Book V (although this may 
have NOTHING to do with H/G, my optimism will not be quenched ;-) 
have I begun to really hope that H/G would be a possibilty, plus for 
the reasons posted below :-)

As for H/H making sense in 'subtexts' I confess I really don't 
understand that concept (*looks sheepish*). IMO JKR would NOT spring 
any surprises concerning relationships between the trio. Like someone 
said these books are not a romance. So the fact that she seems to be 
heading towards R/H and H/G (that is MY opinion and what I gathered 
from my readings of the four books)is the way I think she will stay. 
She may throw us a spectacular twist in PLOT but I don't think that 
she would do so when it comes to something as serious and major as 
the romantic relationships of the Trio. IMO GoF shows a marked 
tendency for R/H and she DID say something is going on between Ron 
and Hermione, not just that RON likes Hermione. MY take on this being 
that Hermione has recipricol feelings for Ron, not just 'because Ron 
likes Hermione it follows that Hermione likes Ron'. JKR has already 
thrown out alternate romantic possibilities for our Trio beyond R/H 
or H/H already, but I don't think any of us REALLY want/think that 
Hermione/Viktor, Ron/Fleur, or Harry/Cho are a possibility, now do 
we? So the point that JKR could/will change R/H to H/H and that the 
TRIO are still in there teens therefore are not mature enough to form 
lasting attachments IMO is not likely. Like one R/H er said, JKR has 
made her R/H bed and now has to lie in it, at least IMO, although I 
heartly believe that the road to R/H (and hopefully H/G ;-) will be 
rocky to say the least. 

Also, since this is likely to be my only post, I will just add to my 
ramble a bit more and say that I kind of agree with Ebony's(?) 
generalization that we bring our personal perceptions into our 
interpretation of HP. I have (I believe the terms being used 
were 'Calm' and 'Volatile') more of a Volatile marriage. It seems 
that a day has not gone by in which my husband and I have not 
bickered (we seem to thrive on little spats, but 'little' is the key 
word here ;-) and we have known each other for fifteen years and have 
been married eleven of those years. I will even go so far as to say 
that my husband was my first and only crush and I guess my high 
school sweatheart as well. Amazing what love and committment can 
accomplish ;-). So that is why I identify with R/H (bickering adds 
spice to life) and H/G (first crush/love CAN lead to a permanent 
relationship. My personal experience may happen rarely in the real 
world, BUT it is possible nevertheless :-)

Wow, this has been a very LONG ramble, so I will stop here and just 
say that all the posts in this forum I have read so far are very 
interesting and entertaining. It is fascinating to read about such 
differing view points over the SAME set of books, LOL. My post is not 
meant to 'convert' any H/H people just as none of the H/H posts 
have 'converted' me ;-). My ramble is all in fun so please 
don't 'flame' me should anything I say not tally up with anyone elses 
view of relationships, these are just my personal views/reasons for 
my 'ship' preference :-) Now I will go back to Sugarquill Island 
where my loyalties lie wholeheartedly and continue to silently lurk 
these Hallowed Halls of H/H were there also exists the Good Ship R/H, 
may it float forever :-)



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., moongirlk at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Ginny Love <Slytherin_Daughter at y...> 
wrote:
> > Oh, and here's my latest
> > rant about my HP alter ego, Ginny:
> > 
> >  Ahem. I whole-heartedly agree that JK Rowling,
> > hallow'd be thy name, would not make our Ginny be a
> > 'plot device' for nothing. 
> 
> Thank you, GinnyLove - a little backup is always nice :D!
> 
> If you'll remember, Tom
> > Riddle said to Harry that not only did he suck the
> > life force out of her, he poured some of himself into
> > her, too-that's how he made her strangle the roosters
> > and paint, etc. 
> 
> Exactly - she's got at the very least some insight into the child 
he 
> once was.  Would be so cool if, in a moment of Evil Voldy weakness, 
> she was able to remind him of some of his youthful vulnerabilities -
 
> remind him that he's human?
> 
> Do we all remember that the reason
> > Harry is a Parslemouth is because Voldemort passed
> > some of his powers on to him via the Avada Kedavra? I
> > don't give a good God damn if Harry saved her, Ginny
> > lived when Voldemort had it in for her-she survived
> > when left for dead. Does it not stand to reason that
> > Tommy passed some of himself into Ginny? 
> 
> I don't know that she got any powers from him the way Harry did, 
but 
> I think she's got a link of some sort that they can use to their 
> advantage against him.  Maybe even just something he shared with 
her 
> to gain her confidence will end up being useful somehow.
> 
> What exactly
> > was the point of CoS, if not to give us the situation
> > for there to be someone who has been through similar
> > things as Harry? What, so we could see Malfoy be a
> > royal prick and buy his way on the Quiddich team? To
> > say 'hi' to Riddle again? To learn the finer points
> > and dangers of journal writing? Come on, folks! Even
> > if she had few lines, the book was about a series of
> > events that altered her life. 
> 
> GinnyLove, I salute you!  In fact, I'm gonna give you my H/G 
sailor's 
> scarf, as a sign of my gratitude for your support!
> 
> Kimberly
> H/G - happy sappy sailors!
> (that's my shorter version)
> 
> > 
> > Ginny Love
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > "R/H: It Just Makes Sense"
> > "H/G: We're Happy, We're Sappy, We're Ginny/Harry!"
> > (or something like that)
> > ---------------------------------------------------




From bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr  Fri Feb  2 09:45:25 2001
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr (bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:45:25 -0000
Subject: Thanatos? was The Death Eater Name O/T
In-Reply-To: <200102020500.f1250Jh28847@mail.i-next.net>
Message-ID: <95dvjl+352r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11521

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., duo at d... wrote:
> An apparent facet of my education has been sadly neglected. What is 
this 
> Thanatos? 
> 
> Nathan
>

Everything you wanted to know about Thanatos, and then some:

Thanatos
In Beyond the Pleasure Principle (1920), a controversial work that was 
not accepted by some of his otherwise staunchest supporters, Freud 
posited an ultimately destructive "death instinct" ("Thanatos") in 
perpetual conflict with a sexually?oriented life instict ("Eros"). 
=
Thanatosos was the greek god of death. He may be thought of as a 
personification of death. He plays little role in the myths. 
Thanatos (Orcus) was the personification of death itself. He was the 
son of Night and the twin brother of Hypnos (Sleep). In early accounts 
he was seen as a very powerful figure, armed with a sword, with a 
shaggy beard and a fierce face. His coming was marked with pain and 
grief. In later eras, as the transition from life in Elysium became a 
more attractive option, Thanatos was seen as a beautiful young man. 
Many Roman sarcophagi show him as a winged boy, much like Cupid. Since 
he had a ghastly task, he was very unpopular with both man and gods. 

Thanatos could be outsmarted on some occasions. Sisyphus did it twice. 
Once he chained Thanatos up with his own shackles, when it was time 
for Sisyphus to die. During the time he was chained, no mortals could 
die. Eventually Ares released Thanatos and handed Sisyphus over to 
him. Before he had gone to the Underworld, Sisyphus had instructed his 
wife to make no sacrifices once he was dead. Sisyphus then went to 
Hades to complain that he was not being honored after his death. This 
infuriated Hades, who sent Sisyphus back to Earth to scold his wife. 
However, Sisyphus stayed there, and lived a good while longer. For 
this, Zeus punished Sisyphus by making him push a rock up a hill, only 
to see it roll back again. 

OK?

Bob






From bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr  Fri Feb  2 10:00:09 2001
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr (bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:00:09 -0000
Subject: The Death Eater name was Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCEIOCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <95e0f9+354j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11522

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> Death Eaters -- perhaps Voldemort retains the loyalty of his 
>supporters by promising them that one day they, too, will be immortal 
>like him (they will  "eat" death).  They'd sell their souls for 
>eternal life and power over  weaker beings...
> 
> SML
 

Well, I'm just thinking that if I was sitting over a pint in the good 
old Leaky Cauldron and some guy comes up to me and says "Are you fed 
up with the way things are being run around here, because I'm forming 
a new group of like minded people and we're calling ourselves the 
"Death Eaters", I'd probably dismiss him as some kind of nutter.
My attitude might conceivably have been different had he suggested 
something like "The Movement for Magical Change" or "Wizards for an 
Alternative Power Structure"

Bob





From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Fri Feb  2 11:30:38 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:30:38 -0000
Subject: Crouch jnr. and imperio
In-Reply-To: <95de15+llr3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95e5ou+qcuj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11523

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mschub at y... wrote:
> Actually, I'm seeming to recall a scene 
> somwhere at the very end of GoF, during Crouch's confession, where 
he 
> says something to the effect of Winky convinced his father to let 
him 
> see the Quidditch World Cup, he used to love Quidditch and he 
hadn't 
> seen any in x years. Does such a scene exist? And, if so, what's 
the 
> x? I have the impression of it being around 5. Which would mean 4 
> years under the Imperius Curse, and Neville being 9 when his 
parents 
> were killed. 

All the text says is that Crouch had not left the house for years and 
that he had loved quidditch. 

Crouch jnr. did not break free of the imperius curse, he was set free 
by V when V and Wormtail visited the Crouch family home. He had 
however begun to fight it, as seen by the World Cup dark mark events. 
It occurred to me that Harry was fairly special in his ability to 
fight off the imperius. Crouch jnr. obviously did not have this gift 
which is why he was held under the imperious curse for so long.



Dai




From bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr  Fri Feb  2 11:34:59 2001
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr (bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:34:59 -0000
Subject: The Death Eater Name
In-Reply-To: <001401c08cd3$cdbede40$eac54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <95e613+ev35@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11524

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Message: 19
>    Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:40 PHT
>    From: duo at d...
> Subject: The Death Eater name was Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
> 
> >Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that
> >"Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for
> >Voldemort's supporters?
> >Wouldn't something along the lines of "The Dark League" or "The
> >National Order of Dark Wizardry" have been much better?
> >Bob
> 
> To us Freudians, the name Death-Eaters is redolent of both 
the "oral" phase
> of childhood development and the dread and awe-inspiring Thanatos, 
The Death
> Instinct - i.e., simultaneously childishly immature and 
transcendentally
> sinister and destructive.  The name Death-Eaters literally 
coruscates with
> Dark Magic, and I would count it as one of JKR's most serendipitous
> coinages. The National Order of Dark Wizardry OTOH sounds like 
something
> that would have an office on K Street and extensive contacts on 
Capitol Hill
> and the Commerce Dep't.
> 
>      - CMC

Interestingly, the French word for an undertaker (I think this 
is "mortician" in American English) is "Croque-mort" which does 
literally mean "Eater of Death"
Though I still feel it's a bad choice of name for Vole's cronies.
Bob





From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Feb  2 05:11:04 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 05:11:04 -0000
Subject: WWII: Global or Not (veered OT) (was Voldemort's Sphere...)
In-Reply-To: <3A79EC99.4C4E8631@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95dfh8+9j7l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11525

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Ebony originally mentioned that WWII was largely confined to Europe.
> 
> > Jane Girard wrote:
> >
> > > FYI, WWII was fought in Europe, Asia and North America (if you 
count
> >
> > > Hawaii). Japan, China and Russia were heavily involved in the 
War.
> >
> > Amanda added: Don't forget North Africa!
> 
> And, I say don't forget:  India/Burma, Malaysia (one of my favorite
> novels of all time is about the events surrounding the fall of
> Singapore), Indochina, Indonesia (catalyst for the Japanese attack 
on
> Pearl Harbor had to do with embargo of Malaysian rubber and 
Indonesian
> oil IIRC), all the Pacific islands of course, the Middle East, etc.
> 
> WWII was truly global.
> 
Many Latin American nations declared themselves on one side or 
another in WWII, mostly Allied, and some I believe even sent a few 
troops, although none of them were all that involved.  Now, have we 
beaten this topic into the ground yet?

Just to veer it back to HP, while the war against Voldy/WWII 
parallels are fairly obvious, I think JKR is intending more to create 
parallels with the modern evil versions of creeping fascism and 
racism.

--Joywitch

--Joywitch.




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 13:31:58 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 13:31:58 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95djjt+7a3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95ecse+soqc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11526

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
<snip>
> 
> I'd agree that he is  most likely not a special kind of wizard, 
> though as for amazing  abilities no other (living) wizard has, JKR 
> has *already* given him  some of those: Parseltongue, prophetic 
> dreams, the ability to resist the Imperius Curse, etc. (That some 
of 
> these powers result from the transference of some of Voldemort's 
> abilites onto Harry does not, IMHO, impact this argument. Powers 
are 
> powers, whatever their origin.)

The prophetic dreams are a power, but they seem only related to 
Voldemort. It would be neat if Harry used his Parseltongue abilities 
more... I wonder if Harry got anything else besides the Parseltongue 
power and the psychic ability to sense Voldemort through his scar 
from him. 

<snip>> Although JKR might  choose to endow Harry with powers, he may 
or may 
> not choose to use them at all, and more importantly he must decide 
> towards what ends he should employ them.  His character formation, 
> not to mention the fate of the wizarding world <g> rests on his own 
> individual personal and moral decisions, whether he has abilites 
> outside the norm or not. 
> 
> There is a middle ground between "Harry is completely normal and 
> possesses no special abilities that everyone else in his year at 
> Hogwarts does not possess in equal measure" and "Harry is Batman." 
> That's where I stand. (Although he would look lovely in the Batman 
> suit.)


Yes, I stay there too. Though, I've just got to point something out. 
Batman, unlike Superman or Spiderman, possessed no special powers 
other than being very intelligent and determined. Bruce Wayne wasn't 
bit by a spider, nor did he have mutant powers; he, disturbed by the 
unjust death of his parents, one day decided to dress as a bat to 
fight evil. 

Charmian





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Fri Feb  2 14:41:45 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 2 Feb 2001 14:41:45 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <981124905.1822.96215.ee@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11527


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


ADMIN: YahooGroups/eGroups changeover 
poll. Please vote for whichever statements 
apply to you. 

  o I had LOADS of problems with the changeover 
  o I had a few problems with the changeover 
  o Problems? Naw...I'm a technogod! 
  o I had problems with registering a NEW YahooID 
  o I had problems joining my existing YahooID with my eGroups mail account 
  o Yahoo ID? What's a Yahoo ID? 
  o I'm experiencing problems with emails "lagging" 
  o I'm not having any "lagging" problems 
  o I'd rather move to Topica or somewhere else 
  o I'd rather stay here at YahooGroups 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms

 







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  2 14:48:30 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:48:30 -0000
Subject: The Death Eater Name
In-Reply-To: <95e613+ev35@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95ehbu+csqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11528

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bob.mornington at w... wrote:
ct: The Death Eater name was Voldemorts Sphere of Influence
> > 
> > >Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that
> > >"Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for
> > >Voldemort's supporters?
> > >Wouldn't something along the lines of "The Dark League" or "The
> > >National Order of Dark Wizardry" have been much better?
> > >Bob

Oh, people love to join groups with silly sounding names...what about 
the Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks, or The Ancient and 
Accepted Order of Freemasons, or, for that matter,  The White Knights 
of the Ku Klux Klan?

Pippin





From bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr  Fri Feb  2 15:05:10 2001
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr (bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 15:05:10 -0000
Subject: The Death Eater Name
In-Reply-To: <95ehbu+csqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95eib6+dam4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11529

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bob.mornington at w... wrote:
>>Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that
>>"Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for
>>Voldemort's supporters?
>>Wouldn't something along the lines of "The Dark League" or "The
>>National Order of Dark Wizardry" have been much better?
>>Bob
> 
>Oh, people love to join groups with silly sounding names...what 
>about the Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks, or The Ancient 
>and Accepted Order of Freemasons, or, for that matter,  The White 
>Kights of the Ku Klux Klan?
> 
> Pippin

Yes Pippin, but would you or anyone you know, ever dream of joining a 
group called the Death Eaters? Don't you think people would just 
laugh at the idiocy of it, even if they were REALLY evil?
People with really disgusting motives usually like to hide them. 
Hitler would never have gotten so many people on board had he called 
his party the "Fascist Dictatorship and Genocide Party". No, instead 
he called it the National Socialist Party (i.e. Nazi Party).
Bob





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  2 15:11:02 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 15:11:02 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95djjt+7a3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95eim6+ldeo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11530

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:

> There is a middle ground between "Harry is completely normal and 
> possesses no special abilities that everyone else in his year at 
> Hogwarts does not possess in equal measure" and "Harry is Batman." 
> That's where I stand. (Although he would look lovely in the Batman 
> suit.)
> 
> Cassie

	Odd that you should choose Batman for your analogy, Cassie, since 
Batman is the one popular superhero who has absolutely no superhuman 
powers. Zip. Nada. He is simply a superbly conditioned and
intelligent human being, not an extraterrestrial like Superman or a 
radioactive mutant like Spiderman or a supernatural creature like 
Wonder Woman.
	As to Super-Harry, I think it does matter whether his extra powers 
derive from Voldemort. First, because I think it will create a moral 
dilemma about using them, and second because I think such powers are 
unlikely to survive Voldie's demise. So adult super Harry, I think, 
will remain confined to fan fic, where he can flourish and marry fan 
fic Hermione if his heart desires. I don't put much stock in him. All 
those delightful fan fics with him tend to concentrate on Hermione,
or Sirius or Draco or somebody. Harry as an adult superhero is  
Galahad, the parfait gentle superhuman grail-achieving knight, and he 
was a dull character if there ever was one. 

Pippin, who wants to borrow Keith's cloning device and make enough 
Hermione's to keep everybody happy





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  2 15:31:17 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 15:31:17 -0000
Subject: The Death Eater Name
In-Reply-To: <95eib6+dam4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95ejs5+ntsd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11531

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bob.mornington at w... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bob.mornington at w... wrote:
> >>Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that
> >>"Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for
> >>Voldemort's supporters?
> >>Wouldn't something along the lines of "The Dark League" or "The
> >>National Order of Dark Wizardry" have been much better?
> >>Bob
> > 
> >Oh, people love to join groups with silly sounding names...what 
> >about the Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks, or The Ancient 
> >and Accepted Order of Freemasons, or, for that matter,  The White 
> >Kights of the Ku Klux Klan?
> > 
> > Pippin
> 
> Yes Pippin, but would you or anyone you know, ever dream of joining
a 
> group called the Death Eaters? Don't you think people would just 
> laugh at the idiocy of it, even if they were REALLY evil?
> People with really disgusting motives usually like to hide them. 
> Hitler would never have gotten so many people on board had he
called 
> his party the "Fascist Dictatorship and Genocide Party". No,
instead 
> he called it the National Socialist Party (i.e. Nazi Party).
> Bob

But Voldie and his boys glory in their bad guy image...like Hell's 
Angels...or The Bloods (a street gang)...they're not trying to pass 
themselves off as respectable. The DE's are a terrorist group and
proud of it. Lucius attempts to keep his affiliation secret and
Draco, who wants to have it both ways  is, IMHO, riding for a fall.
Remember, before Hitler had the NAZI's he had the  Sturm 
Abteilung...(Storm Division): the brown shirts. They were
purged...not respectable enough for the NAZIs. 
Pippin





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Fri Feb  2 15:53:27 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 2 Feb 2001 15:53:27 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <981129207.719.5605.fd@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11532


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


Do you think "Death Eaters" is a good 
choice of name for the bad guys? 

  o Death Eaters is a great name. Just hearing it scares the *%* #t* out of me 
  o Death Eaters just makes me laugh! Sounds like little boys trying very hard to sound bad 
  o I dont really care, just as long as they dont start going on any more killing rampages again 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
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Thanks!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms

 







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 16:22:35 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:22:35 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95djjt+7a3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95emsb+p11h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11533

> I'd agree that he is  most likely not a special kind of wizard, 
> though as for amazing  abilities no other (living) wizard has, 
JKR 
> has *already* given him  some of those: Parseltongue, 
prophetic 
> dreams, the ability to resist the Imperius Curse, etc. 

To be precise, these are not unique among living wizards; they 
are just rare.  We don't know whether anyone besides Harry and 
Voldemort are Parselmouths; people aren't real likely to make it 
public if they are.  Resisting the Imperius Curse is not 
unheard-of; Harry's just unusually good at it.  I'm going by Crouch 
Sr's ability to shake it off (granted, it takes him several months), 
but more by Moody's attempt to teach resistance in class, which 
he wouldn't do if it were something impossible or unteachable.  
And we have no idea whether others have prophetic dreams.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ern jerked the steering wheel so hard that a whole 
farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus.
                               -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-----------------------------------------------------------------------




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 16:35:13 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:35:13 
Subject: Is Draco Redeemable?/Thematic Motifs
Message-ID: <F6pOt375BAXPBABdA3x00003839@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11534

Ginny wrote re: the Draco-Redemption Issue:

>I was thinking about this whole thing just the other
>day when I was thumbing through GoF. Go re-read the
>bouncing ferret scene. The part when it says mentions
>-this is paraphrasing- ". . .his pale eyes welling up
>with tears of pain and humiliation. . ." I find that I
>feel sorry for him in that scene. He seems so sad and
>pitiful. Maybe it's just the effects of too much
>fanficiton, maybe if I haven't been seeing him in a
>new light I'd think he got his just desserts. But now
>I don't. <sigh>
>  Ebony, I really agree with your comments on this. I'm
>in the process of writing a fic in which Draco is 20,
>and it's interesting to see how, as a person, he would
>really change. I think that his devilish side will (or
>would, in real life) transform into a more
>impish-ness. I don't think he really *is* evil, but
>growing up around death eaters. . . it messes with
>your mind.
>


I think this may just be the case, Ginny.  Sometimes we adopt our parents' 
values.  Other times, age and experience seem to win out.

The anti-Draco sentiment I've read here is interesting.  I propose that *if* 
Draco ever were to renounce his father and accept Muggles/Muggle-borns as 
legitimate magical citizens, many wizards and witches would treat him with 
suspicion at best.  Many would dislike him, distrust him, and never forgive 
him for being Lucius Malfoy's son.

Perhaps I'm completely wrong in defending Draco.  Perhaps once a bigot, 
always a bigot.  Once a racist, always a racist.  My late father, who grew 
up in Mississippi and saw too much too soon, firmly believed those last two 
statements.  I'm sure he would have read HP (he always read whatever I 
recommended so we could discuss it) and condemned Draco Malfoy to a 
Death-Eating, cheerless future.

Perhaps personality is no more mutable than the sun is extinguishable from 
our own human efforts.  Maybe it's not Maybelline... maybe we *are* born 
with it.

I'm still reading this thread, and I still don't think that those who say 
that Draco is a Dark Lord-in-training have made their case.  Especially when 
many Evil Draco proponents argue the case for Snape in the same breath.  If 
anything, it's really making me reconsider my own original thoughts about 
Snape, Draco, and Slyths in general.

Also, consider this.  If Draco has little to no redeemable characteristics 
and is basically a beastly little snot, it stands to reason that he has an 
opposite who is absolutely good and noble and unselfish.  Arguing for an 
evil Draco with no shades of gray means that you're in essence arguing for a 
heroic Harry with no shades of gray.  Which brings me to my next topic.

THEMES

Perhaps we should lift our eyes for a moment, beyond the characters, beyond 
the setting, beyond the nuts-and-bolts details at the text level and 
consider the Big Picture.

I'd like to start a new thread here if possible.

What do *you* think JKR is saying via the Harry Potter books?  From reading 
canon only, what are her themes?  The didactic lessons she wants the reader 
to leave with?  Or do you feel as if the books aren't saying anything 
important or consistent, and are only for entertainment value?

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who is refraining from discussing shipping and fanfic 
for a while b/c she's weary of defending those subjects' right to exist when 
so many other just-as-frivolous threads are smiled upon)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 16:35:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:35:30 -0000
Subject: SHIP and FF: the real H/D; Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <95csqn+rm0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95enki+9h64@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11535

Cassie wrote:
> 
> <quiet happy dancing> I hereby petition that a boat for the 
> Harry/Draco shippers be created. 

Book me a berth! 

Cassie, is this a hint about where DS is heading?   ;-)

> Ron/Draco? Rhysenn was working on me with that, but so far 
with no 
> great success. Although I prefer it to Ron/Hermione. <eg>
> 

Come on, I was gonna suggest a catamaran of R/H and H/D!  
Ginny can have Neville.  They can be the "we're both a lot more 
feisty than anyone seems to think" couple.

Re: Death Eaters, I think it's a great name--combines two ideas, 
"we thrive on death" (others') and "we will defeat death" (ours).  
As for a serious, office-in-Washington-DC name, they probably 
do have one.  Every horrible racist group needs an official name 
and a nickname.  Even the KKK has some more official name.

BTW, I think they DO have an office on K Street, with lobbyists 
and all.  <--Not a political comment!  I didn't say which side of the 
aisle likes 'em better!  Though I have my views . . .

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 16:51:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:51:38 -0000
Subject: crouch jr. under imperius
In-Reply-To: <95de15+llr3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95eoiq+npt9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11536

mschub wrote:

 So assuming all this was true, Crouch Sr. 
> was able to keep Crouch Jr. under the Imperius curse for 
(assuming 
> Neville was 1 year old when the attack took place) TWELVE 
YEARS? (give 
> or take) It seems wrong to me. I had always assumed (not 
sure why) 
> that Crouch Jr. had broken out of the Imperius Curse like a 
year or so 
> after being placed under it. 

I have had to return all the books to the library (and am already 
suffering withdrawal symptoms:  headache, nausea, obsessive 
checking of Yahoo!Groups) so I can't be 100% sure on this.  But I 
am 99% sure that it was twelve years, or close to it.  The torture 
of the Longbottoms took place--?--no more than a year after V's 
fall, probably?  A year after that, Crouch Jr. was smuggled out of 
Azkaban.  It took him 10-12 years to begin to shake it off, and it 
took V's interceding to really release him.

Clearly, people vary greatly in their ability to resist the Imperius 
Curse.  In this case, Crouch Sr. was very powerful, Crouch Jr. 
was physically extremely weak--he had been close to 
death--when he was first put under the Curse, and perhaps we 
are also meant to conclude that those who gravitate towards 
Voldemort lack the strength of will and character that it takes to 
resist?  By this I'm not suggesting that V had ever had Crouch Jr. 
under the Imperius Curse, but rather that there are character 
traits that make one less likely to join a group like the Death 
Eaters, the White Aryan Resistance, whatever:  a strong sense of 
one's own self, morality, and purpose--a kind of interior voice 
that, when someone suggests "let's beat up some _____" 
(Muggles, Jews, gays) says "Why?  Stupid thing to do, really . . . . 
I WON'T!"

Amy Z




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Fri Feb  2 17:28:31 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 17:28:31 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95eim6+ldeo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95eqnv+tqrr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11537

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> 
> 	Odd that you should choose Batman for your analogy, Cassie, 
since 
> Batman is the one popular superhero who has absolutely no 
superhuman 
> powers. Zip. Nada. He is simply a superbly conditioned and
> intelligent human being, not an extraterrestrial like Superman or a 
> radioactive mutant like Spiderman or a supernatural creature like 
> Wonder Woman.
> 	As to Super-Harry, I think it does matter whether his extra 
powers  derive from Voldemort. First, because I think it will create 
a moral  dilemma about using them, and second because I think such 
powers are  unlikely to survive Voldie's demise. 

-----------------
All right, all right! I admit that I did not recall that Batman 
didn't have any special powers, since I have never had the slightest 
interest in Batman. *shakes head* Now that I have been Firmly 
Reminded By Many People, I promise never to mix up my superheroes 
again. I shall try in future to compare Harry only to bona fide 
readioactive mutants, not regular joes like that Batman guy.

As to Harry's special powers deriving from Voldemort, my point wasn't 
that the origin of his powers doesn't matter *overall* or impact 
Harry's decision about using those powers, but that it doesn't matter 
to the sentence "Harry has special powers." He's still got 'em. (For 
now.) As for his powers not surviving Voldie's demise, that had never 
occured to me. *shrugs* Maybe they will, maybe they won't. What about 
his non-Voldie related powers, like the ability to resist the 
Imperius Curse and whatever it was that rebounded the Killing curse 
on Voldemort in the first place? *holds head* Oh, too much to think 
about.

Cassie




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Feb  2 17:41:24 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 17:41:24 -0000
Subject: Thematic Motifs (Was Is Draco Redeemable?)
In-Reply-To: <F6pOt375BAXPBABdA3x00003839@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95erg4+fqvj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11538

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> (First part snipped)
> 
> THEMES
> 
> Perhaps we should lift our eyes for a moment, beyond the 
characters, beyond 
> the setting, beyond the nuts-and-bolts details at the text level 
and 
> consider the Big Picture.
> 
> I'd like to start a new thread here if possible.
> 
> What do *you* think JKR is saying via the Harry Potter books?  From 
reading 
> canon only, what are her themes?  The didactic lessons she wants 
the reader 
> to leave with?  Or do you feel as if the books aren't saying 
anything 
> important or consistent, and are only for entertainment value?
> 
> --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who is refraining from discussing shipping and 
fanfic 
> for a while b/c she's weary of defending those subjects' right to 
exist when 
> so many other just-as-frivolous threads are smiled upon)
> 
> <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
> Ebony AKA AngieJ
> (H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Great post, Ebony!!  

I think JKR's main theme is the importance of friendship.  Those 
relationships that we *choose*.  Harry, Hermione, Ron, Sirius, and 
Remus (and I'd throw Hagrid into the mix, as well) are in a real 
sense, *family* even if they're not related.  I get the sense that 
any one of them would gladly do anything for the rest.  And that's 
what friends do for each other.  

The other theme I think runs throughout the books is that we are free 
to make our own choices in life.  Yes, we are a product of our 
upbringing to a large extent (not to mention our genes) but at the 
end of the day, it's we who have to decide what to do, how to act, 
who to be. 

Both of these themes are important not only to an audience of young 
people, but to us adults as well.  I think we have a lot to learn 
(and admire) from and about Harry and Company.

Peace and Plenty, 

Parker
> 
> 




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  2 18:02:54 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:02:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In defense of Ginny <again> and such (from a 'newbie')
References: <95dtf7+8964@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c08d42$68c569e0$2552d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11539


----- Original Message -----
From: <shaanhp at yahoo.com>


>
> As for H/H making sense in 'subtexts' I confess I really don't
> understand that concept (*looks sheepish*). IMO JKR would NOT spring
> any surprises concerning relationships between the trio.


You really think she would go for the obvious?  Has she ever gone for the
obvious in all the previous plots?  Who here suspected that Hermione would
go to the Yule Ball with Victor Krum?  This is just one example of a dating
situation where she has been unexpected.  Yes, she has been sowing the seeds
for a Ron / Hermione pairing, but she also sowed the seeds for Sirius being
a deranged criminal, and Quirrell being innocent, and Hagrid being the one
who opened the Chamber, and Moody being a good guy.

I just can't imagine that she would not monkey around with our perceptions.
So that just leaves everyone with their own preferences.  I really don't
think any of us can claim to *know* where JKR is going to go with this
issue.

carole








From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  2 18:13:35 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 18:13:35 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95eqnv+tqrr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95etcf+s1j1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11540

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
 I shall try in future to compare Harry only to bona fide 
> readioactive mutants, not regular joes like that Batman guy.
> 
LOL!

 As for his powers not surviving Voldie's demise, that had never 
> occured to me. *shrugs* 

It's a common resolution to stories of this kind...think Frodo Baggins 
or Taran of Lloyd Alexander's Prydain series, or Bran  in Susan 
Cooper's The Dark is Rising. They all lose, or choose to give up their 
supernatural  powers. 

 What about 
> his non-Voldie related powers, like the ability to resist the 
> Imperius Curse and whatever it was that rebounded the Killing curse 
> on Voldemort in the first place? *holds head* Oh, too much to think 
> about.

	How do we know those powers *aren't* Voldie related. Wouldn't it 
be neat if the power to resist Voldemort's curse came from Voldie 
himself?
	At several times in the narrative, a little voice, sometimes it's 
called a "nasty little voice,' speaks to Harry from the back of his 
mind. I keep wondering about that voice. Is it Harry's subconscious or 
could it be the voice of the part of Voldemort that got transferred to 
Harry, and are they by now inextricably entwined? 

Pippin
-----------------
"I wonder what other powers Potter's been hiding?" CoS ch. 11





From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  2 18:16:43 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:16:43 -0500
Subject: Meeting in Providence RI
Message-ID: <008601c08d44$4e4f8260$2552d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11541


> Hello all New Englanders.
>
> A few of us are coordinating a get together in Providence, Rhode Island on
> Friday February 23, in the evening...thinking of around 6:30ish.
>
> Any and all are welcome...email me off list at :
>
> lrcjestes at earthlink.net
>
> if you're interested.
>
> carole
>
>
>
>





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Feb  2 19:17:58 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 19:17:58 -0000
Subject: Countingdown.com finally has HP page
Message-ID: <95f156+ffuj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11542

It's at http://www.countingdown.com/movies/harrypotter
One of the top things is a link to Steve's Lexicon (which all newbies 
should visit asap: )
One of hte other things up there is a cite to a report on the Leaky 
Cauldron website which says that Entertainment Rewired has an article 
about a WB-given apology for the way it's acted towards Web site 
owners who have domains with "Harry Potter" as part of them. 
This is a good thing : ) 




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Feb  2 19:39:36 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 19:39:36 -0000
Subject: Is Draco Redeemable?/Thematic Motifs
In-Reply-To: <F6pOt375BAXPBABdA3x00003839@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95f2do+a3oq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11543

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
quoted what
> Ginny wrote re: the Draco-Redemption Issue:
> I don't think he really *is* evil, but
> >growing up around death eaters. . . it messes with
> >your mind.

and then proposed: 
>
>*if*  Draco ever were to renounce his father and accept 
Muggles/Muggle-borns as 
> legitimate magical citizens, many wizards and witches would treat 
him with 
> suspicion at best.  Many would dislike him, distrust him, and never 
forgive 
> him for being Lucius Malfoy's son.
> <SNIP>
> I'm still reading this thread, and I still don't think that those 
who say 
> that Draco is a Dark Lord-in-training have made their case.  
Especially when 
> many Evil Draco proponents argue the case for Snape in the same 
breath.  If 
> anything, it's really making me reconsider my own original thoughts 
about 
> Snape, Draco, and Slyths in general.


Ditto. When I read book 1 the first time, I admit to being intrigues 
by Draco, but not at all by snape or any of the other slytherins - 
but by book 3, I was just generally ticked off at him whenever he 
appeared on the page. Ugh! and Jerk! were words that went through my 
mind when I saw his name.
But the ferret incident changed my mind - although by the end of Book 
IV I was just as horified as anyone else by what he said.
However, once I discovered the alterna-HP world of fanfiction, I 
started wondering about him again - even before I discovered 
Cassandra's amazing Draco Dormiens (I think it started with Masoumi's 
If you Kill The Bird...) and took my first stem on the long, dark and 
almost deserted road to the Land of Draco's Redemption (where I now 
have other fellow travelers, like Cassie & Rhysenn).
ANd then I started my own fanfic - and the reason I haven't posted a 
new chapter yet is in part because my son has an ear infection & 
isn't sleeping at night, therefore I'm not sleeping at night, and in 
part because I've been pondering *why* draco said those things about 
cedric & muggle-borns on the train - and I have an explanation 
(sorta) which I am still working through - it won't excuse it, but it 
will give different reasons for it which might make it 
understandable - I know it sounds cryptic (sorry!)

As I've said before, I will be troubled if JKR ends the series with 
Draco as completely evil (I will be equally troubled if she ends the 
series with him being completely nice & married into One Big Happy 
Weasley Family) because I don't think that showing us a character 
grow from age ten (or possibly eleven) to 17 and remaining evil, 
corrupted and (eventually, likely) homicidal is reasonable, 
especially as we've seen so clearly from Snape that it's possible to 
turn back from evil. But no matter how much backstory we get on 
Snape, even if it's a monologue from him, it'll never be the same as 
seeing a character become good (or at least become un-Evil) on the 
page, as part of the action. And I *want* her to show us that because 
it will be truly magical!




From alw at wilsonllp.com  Fri Feb  2 19:51:05 2001
From: alw at wilsonllp.com (Amy)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:51:05 -0500
Subject: The Wisdom of Albus Dumbledore
Message-ID: <00ec01c08d51$7a6c9e20$3d1fa8c0@chamblee>

No: HPFGUIDX 11544

I recently finished re-reading the HP books and as I stumbled across the brilliantly written Dumbledore lines, I jotted them down.  Sirius actually has one or two in here as well.  Anyway, this topic was visited briefly about a million posts ago titled "The Quotable JKR" and I think someone mentioned around Christmas that it would have been more interesting to have a "Dumbledore thought of the day" calendar instead of the ones they came out with.  Regardless, I thought I'd post the "Wisdom of Albus Dumbledore" at the end of a rather trying week<g>.  Feel free to add!

 (Note: I've now lent some of my books out so I couldn't go back and check to ensure that I had the exact quote.  When I wrote them down originally, I wrote them down straight from the book...but there's no telling what happened between the hand written notes and this post<G>.  I also missed a few of the chapters and page and since my books are out on loan, I couldn't check them.)

Amy


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It does not do to dwell in dreams and forget to live?"
Albus Dumbledore (PS/SS Ch. ?. pg. ?)
 
 
"To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure."
Albus Dumbledore (PS/SS Ch. 17. pg. 297)
 
 
"Always use the proper name for things.  Fear of the name increases dear of the thing itself."
Albus Dumbledore (PS/SS Ch. 17 pg. 298)
 
 
"The truth?it is a beautiful and terrible thing, and therefore be treated with great caution."
Albus Dumbledore (PS/SS Ch. 17, pg. 298)
 
 
"As much money and life as you could want - the two things most human beings would choose above all.  The trouble is that humans do have a knack for choosing precisely those things that are worst for them."
Albus Dumbledore (PS/SS Ch. ?. pg. ?)
 
 
"There are all kinds of courage.  It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies - but it takes just as much to stand up to our friends."
Albus Dumbledore (PS/SS Ch. 17, pg. 306)
 
 
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Albus Dumbledore (CoS Ch 18, pg 333)
 
 
"You think the dead we love ever truly leave us?  You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble?  Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you are in need of him."
Albus Dumbledore (PoA Ch 22, pg 427)
 
 
"What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has ever existed?  Only innocent lives?"
 
"You don't understand.  He would have killed me."
 
"Then you should have died!  Died rather than betray your friends, as we would have done for you."
 Sirius and Peter (PoA Ch 19, pg 375)
 
 
"Curiosity is not a sin, but we should exercise caution with our curiosity?"
Albus Dumbledore (GoF ch 30, pg 598)
 
 
"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals."
Sirius Black (GoF Ch 27, pg 525)
 
 
"You are blinded by the love of the office you hold, Cornelius!  You place too much importance, as you always have done, on the so-called purity of blood!  You fail to recognize that it matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be!"
Albus Dumbledore (GoF Ch36, pg 706)
 
 
"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided."?"Differences of habit and language are nothing if  our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
Albus Dumbledore (GoF Ch 37, pg 723)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Fri Feb  2 19:57:24 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 19:57:24 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95etcf+s1j1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95f3f4+1ud7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11545

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
Pip: It's a common resolution to stories of this kind...think Frodo 
Baggins  or Taran of Lloyd Alexander's Prydain series, or Bran  in 
Susan   Cooper's The Dark is Rising. They all lose, or choose to give 
up their  supernatural  powers. 

Will, the hero of The Dark Is Rising, doesn't lose his powers at the 
end of the series. Only his companions choose to give theirs up. Will 
stays an Old One, as does Merriman. And Taran never had any powers, 
did he? Only Eilonwy gave hers up. I see your point, though. <g> I 
think it's a fifty-fifty.
> 
 
"How do we know those powers *aren't* Voldie related. Wouldn't it 
> be neat if the power to resist Voldemort's curse came from Voldie 
> himself? At several times in the narrative, a little voice, 
sometimes it's   called a "nasty little voice,' speaks to Harry from 
the back of his  mind. I keep wondering about that voice. Is it 
Harry's subconscious or  could it be the voice of the part of 
Voldemort that got transferred to  Harry, and are they by now 
inextricably entwined? 
> 
*Could* the power to resist Voldemort have been something Voldie-
related? I'm not sure how that would work, since Harry obviously had 
that power before Voldemort ever touched him. As far as we know, of 
course...we really don't know what caused the curse to rebound, so 
obviously this is just theorizing.

Ooh, I remember the nasty little voice in the back of Harry's mind. 
All Harry's ties to the Dark Side are one of my favorite things about 
him. IMHO, they make him a much more interesting hero (and is part of 
the reason I'm mystified by people saying he's boring.) That he 
shares wand cores with Voldemort, has some of his powers, "would have 
done well in Slytherin"...this are all things that IMO give him a 
fascinating extra dimension. <g> This is probably also why I don't 
understand why Ron-fans get so wound up at the suggestion that Ron 
might throw in with the Dark Side. I get a big kick out of 
speculating about Evil Harry, even though I doubt it'll ever happen 
(as, incidentally, I doubt Ron will ever throw in with the Dark Side, 
either.) But it's fun to posit.

Cass




From kdhoffma at engin.umich.edu  Fri Feb  2 20:16:30 2001
From: kdhoffma at engin.umich.edu (Kevin Hoffman)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:16:30 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95emsb+p11h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95f4iu+n229@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11546

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > I'd agree that he is  most likely not a special kind of wizard, 
> > though as for amazing  abilities no other (living) wizard has, 
> JKR 
> > has *already* given him  some of those: Parseltongue, 
> prophetic 
> > dreams, the ability to resist the Imperius Curse, etc. 
> 
> To be precise, these are not unique among living wizards; they 
> are just rare.  We don't know whether anyone besides Harry and 
> Voldemort are Parselmouths; people aren't real likely to make it 
> public if they are.  Resisting the Imperius Curse is not 
> unheard-of; Harry's just unusually good at it.  I'm going by Crouch 
> Sr's ability to shake it off (granted, it takes him several 
months), 
> but more by Moody's attempt to teach resistance in class, which 
> he wouldn't do if it were something impossible or unteachable.  
> And we have no idea whether others have prophetic dreams.
> 
> Amy Z

Actually, if I remember, it wasn't moody who taught resistance to the 
imperius curse, but crouch jr. in a Moody body.  Could it be that a 
natural instinct to resist the imperius curse is a dark wizard 
trait.  Maybe Crouch jr. was teaching the class the resistance in a 
effort to test who the natural dark wizards were, or maybe just to 
test how strong harry's powers are.  
Kevin

> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> Ern jerked the steering wheel so hard that a whole 
> farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus.
>                                -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
---




From rdeyerle at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 20:18:40 2001
From: rdeyerle at hotmail.com (Rusty Deyerle)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:18:40 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95emsb+p11h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95f4n0+7nkm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11547

Should Harry's ability to cast a very powerful Patronus be considered 
a special power since it is very advanced magic and he was able to 
drive of a whole slew of dementors?   This definitely is not 
something that would have derived from Voldermort since this is 
essentially a spell used by the side of Good and not something that 
would derive from a Dark Lord.


Rusty 




From rlpenar at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 20:23:25 2001
From: rlpenar at yahoo.com (rlpenar at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:23:25 -0000
Subject: The Wisdom of Albus Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c08d51$7a6c9e20$3d1fa8c0@chamblee>
Message-ID: <95f4vt+sbuo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11548

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy" <alw at w...> wrote:
> I recently finished re-reading the HP books and as I stumbled 
across the brilliantly written Dumbledore lines, I jotted them down.  
Sirius actually has one or two in here as well.  Anyway, this topic 
was visited briefly about a million posts ago titled "The Quotable 
JKR" and I think someone mentioned around Christmas that it would 
have been more interesting to have a "Dumbledore thought of the day" 
calendar instead of the ones they came out with.  Regardless, I 
thought I'd post the "Wisdom of Albus Dumbledore" at the end of a 
rather trying week<g>.  Feel free to add!
> 
Thank you so much for these Amy, I'm sure I'm speaking for more than 
just myself here, but I have printed this out!!

Becky




From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Feb  2 20:34:27 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:34:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Any more room on good ship R/H?
Message-ID: <200102022104.f12L4OC20197@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11549

College Girl wrote:
>Hi.  I go as College Girl at ff.net and Sugarquill, and I've heard a
>lot about this site.  Anyway, I love the ship analogies.  I probably
>won't post much, just wondered if you had room for one more on the
>good ship R/H.

Of course!  There's always room for one more!  Welcome aboard!

>I should warn you though, being also a very big H/G supporter, I may
>have to hop from boat to boat.

That's okay, we travel together, so you can go back and forth easily.

Be warned though, we've been experiencing some choppy waters.  Make sure you 
wear your life vest!

Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From bradamant at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 21:04:21 2001
From: bradamant at hotmail.com (Emily Owens)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:04:21 -0500
Subject: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence/WWII parallels
Message-ID: <F195sQtgTIFprhMOgRG00003d37@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11550

Ebony:
Many have noted parallels between Voldemort and Hitler [snip]

I just looked back in the archive and was surprised to note that either I 
can't find it, or there's been no mention yet of the possibility (or IMO, 
likelihood) that Voldemort's use of the Imperius Curse is a reference to one 
of the main attempts to explain the Holocaust.

I assume most of you know about this so I'll keep the summary short. There 
are two major schools of thought attempting to explain how the circumstances 
leading to the Holocaust or Shoah came about.

One started with Hannah Arendt and concerns "the banality of evil." 
According to this view, those who committed the crimes were cogs in a 
bureaucracy, and were too brainwashed or too dedicated to their jobs and 
country fully to realize how evil the bureaucracy's ends were.

The other gained great prominence with the fairly recent publication of of 
Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's book "Hitler's Willing Executioners," which argued 
that those who committed the crimes acted independently, based on racist 
views they learned from their overwhelmingly anti-Semitic surroundings.

Aside from the Nuremberg-esque tone of the Death Eaters' trials, I think the 
discussions about the Imperius Curse are a reference to one of these two 
views. I.e. people who claimed that they were under the Imperius Curse tried 
to dodge responsibility for their actions by claiming that Voldemort *made* 
them do it, and were essentially trying to use the "organization of evil" 
argument. Given the level of skepticism with which many of the characters 
regard these claims, it seems that JKR is throwing her lot in with the 
Goldhagen/individual-responsibility view.

Does anyone else see this in the books? I studied the period, so perhaps I 
am over-inclined to see reflections of it everywhere. OTOH, I feel that the 
books are capable of this level of seriousness.

Emily
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From john at walton.to  Fri Feb  2 21:12:59 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 21:12:59 +0000
Subject: The WB Website-banning frenzy (was: Countingdown.com...)
In-Reply-To: <95f156+ffuj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6A0D35B.B2DD%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 11551

Heidi said:
> One of hte other things up there is a cite to a report on the Leaky
> Cauldron website which says that Entertainment Rewired has an article
> about a WB-given apology for the way it's acted towards Web site
> owners who have domains with "Harry Potter" as part of them.
> This is a good thing : )

For more information (and for what you can do to help stop WB sending
threatening letters to folks with URLs containing the words "Harry Potter"),
visit 

www.potterwar.co.uk

Don't worry, it's not an anti-HP site :) Just somewhere to see what WB has
really been doing with the issue. It's eye-opening.

--John 

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Feb  2 21:39:27 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 21:39:27 -0000
Subject: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence/WWII parallels
In-Reply-To: <F195sQtgTIFprhMOgRG00003d37@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95f9ef+d813@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11552

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Emily Owens" <bradamant at h...> wrote:
> Ebony:
> Many have noted parallels between Voldemort and Hitler [snip]
> 
> I just looked back in the archive and was surprised to note that 
either I 
> can't find it, or there's been no mention yet of the possibility 
(or IMO, 
> likelihood) that Voldemort's use of the Imperius Curse is a 
reference to one 
> of the main attempts to explain the Holocaust.
> 
> I assume most of you know about this so I'll keep the summary 
short. There 
> are two major schools of thought attempting to explain how the 
circumstances 
> leading to the Holocaust or Shoah came about.
> 
> One started with Hannah Arendt and concerns "the banality of evil." 
> According to this view, those who committed the crimes were cogs in 
a 
> bureaucracy, and were too brainwashed or too dedicated to their 
jobs and 
> country fully to realize how evil the bureaucracy's ends were.
> 
> The other gained great prominence with the fairly recent 
publication of of 
> Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's book "Hitler's Willing Executioners," 
which argued 
> that those who committed the crimes acted independently, based on 
racist 
> views they learned from their overwhelmingly anti-Semitic 
surroundings.
> 
> Aside from the Nuremberg-esque tone of the Death Eaters' trials, I 
think the 
> discussions about the Imperius Curse are a reference to one of 
these two 
> views. I.e. people who claimed that they were under the Imperius 
Curse tried 
> to dodge responsibility for their actions by claiming that 
Voldemort *made* 
> them do it, and were essentially trying to use the "organization of 
evil" 
> argument. Given the level of skepticism with which many of the 
characters 
> regard these claims, it seems that JKR is throwing her lot in with 
the 
> Goldhagen/individual-responsibility view.
> 
> Does anyone else see this in the books? I studied the period, so 
perhaps I 
> am over-inclined to see reflections of it everywhere. OTOH, I feel 
that the 
> books are capable of this level of seriousness.
> 
> Emily

Emily--

I noticed it right off.  I also noticed something else in my 20th re-
reading of GoF.  Crouch, sr. is described as having a toothbrush 
mustache and severe parting in his hair.  Now, I may be crazy, but 
the image that jumped into my brain when I read that, was of a Hitler 
with white hair.  It made my blood run cold.  

I also think the books are capable of this level of seriousness.  
I've noticed several places where JKR seems to be commenting on 
modern-day society.

Peace and Plenty,

Parker
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From particle at urbanet.ch  Fri Feb  2 21:44:59 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:44:59 +0100
Subject: Batman Harry, SHIP: the *other* H/D, etc.
References: <95djjt+7a3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7B2A5B.BF9DBC21@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 11553

> There is a middle ground between "Harry is completely normal and
> possesses no special abilities that everyone else in his year at
> Hogwarts does not possess in equal measure" and "Harry is Batman."
> That's where I stand. (Although he would look lovely in the Batman
> suit.)

But Cassie, the problem with that is that Robin would then be taller than Batman - and don't you think the red, green, yellow and black would clash horribly with Ron's hair? <vbg>

<<quiet happy dancing> I hereby petition that a boat for the
Harry/Draco shippers be created. We can wave at y'all from our deck,
(I'm envisioning some kind of speedy, flashy-looking yacht here.)>

<If I may be so frank, I suggest a destroyer instead - long, sleak
ships - high speed (HMS Cassandra, HMS Escapade and HMS Daring all
made 36 kts, HMS Clare made 35 kts), and high capability of upsetting
the major shippinglanes.  And there is something slashing about the
way their bows cut through waves...  It could operate in cooperation
with the flotilla-leader HMS Black Lupin.  We might also recommision
the old light cruiser HMS Dragon...  then we can do target-practise
on HMS Pansy and HMS Petunia (yes, they really had ships in Royal
Navy with those names - with the exception of Black Lupin, but there
was a USS Black). >

Ooh, you wouldn't have need for a cabin boy (well, girl ^_^) on board, wouldja? Please pretty please with a chocolate frog on top? Wait - do destroyers even have cabin people? I'm
sorry, I know nothing about ships...

<#3) And, was it just me, or does Cho seem like a flirt? She doesn't
wear a Cedric pin and she's all "I really hope you do well." And then
she turns around and goes with Cedric. Or, is she just trying to get
in the good with the champion? Woah-does that sound harsh. What does
Cho really want?>

On the other hand, she was already friends with Harry in PoA to some extent - well, friendly acquantainces. And I dunno, but if my boyfriend/close pal was competing in something
against a friendly acquaintance of mine, I'd support my boyfriend/pal, but I wouldn't rub it in the face of the acquaintance because that's just...well, cruel. So I don't find it
necessarily flirty, just being considerate of a friend.

<Cassie wrote (re: SugarQuill):>

::blinks:: I haven't been able to follow many messages lately - could someone direct me to the message numbers that deal with SugarQuill? Because I have no clue what it is, and I
hate not knowing anything <g>.

- Too tired to say anything *intelligent*, Firebolt




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  2 21:52:39 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 21:52:39 -0000
Subject: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence/WWII parallels
In-Reply-To: <F195sQtgTIFprhMOgRG00003d37@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95fa77+8kdt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11554

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Emily Owens" <bradamant at h...> wrote:
. Given the level of skepticism with which many of the characters 
> regard these claims, it seems that JKR is throwing her lot in with the 
> Goldhagen/individual-responsibility view.
> 
> Does anyone else see this in the books? I studied the period, so perhaps I 
> am over-inclined to see reflections of it everywhere. OTOH, I feel that the 
> books are capable of this level of seriousness.

I agree with you on the level of seriousness, but I think you are 
misreading JKR's views on responsibility.  Sirius says  that Voldemort 
"can control people so that they do terrible things, without being able 
to stop themselves." This indicates to me that being under the Imperius 
curse does absolve one from responsibility, and the skepticism is 
because it is hard to figure out after the fact if someone was  
actually enchanted or only pretending.
	In JKR's world it appears that "I was only following orders" is a 
valid defense, as long as you can convince the court that the orders 
were given under the Imperius Curse. 

Pippin	





From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb  2 21:55:04 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 15:55:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death Eater Name
References: <95eib6+dam4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7B2CB8.3E4C78C1@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11555

bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr wrote:

> Yes Pippin, but would you or anyone you know, ever dream of joining a
> group called the Death Eaters? Don't you think people would just laugh
> at the idiocy of it, even if they were REALLY evil?

Point: Neither I, nor anyone I know, is of the stripe to be one of
Voldemort's Own. But if the man I swore to follow, that I believed could
kick the world's collective butt singlehandedly, who could also fry me
to a cinder on a whim and I knew it, said "you're a Death Eater" I'd
say, "Yes, sir, thank you, sir!"

> People with really disgusting motives usually like to hide them.

Explain, then, please, the Dark Mark. It's apparently permanent, and I
got the impression it only faded because Voldemort almost died.

> Hitler would never have gotten so many people on board had he called
> his party the "Fascist Dictatorship and Genocide Party".

Hitler, bad as he was, was not capable of some of the more disgusting
curses we've heard about. He named his party when he still needed people
to get established; I get the impression that Voldemort was much more of
a one-man show. Kind of like Hitler wanted to be.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mschub at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 21:57:52 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 21:57:52 -0000
Subject: Veering OT: Voldemorts Sphere of Influence/WWII parallels
In-Reply-To: <F195sQtgTIFprhMOgRG00003d37@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95fah0+pdaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11556

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Emily Owens" <bradamant at h...> wrote:
> I just looked back in the archive and was surprised to note that 
either I 
> can't find it, or there's been no mention yet of the possibility (or 
IMO, 
> likelihood) that Voldemort's use of the Imperius Curse is a 
reference to one 
> of the main attempts to explain the Holocaust.
> 
> I assume most of you know about this so I'll keep the summary short. 
There 
> are two major schools of thought attempting to explain how the 
circumstances 
> leading to the Holocaust or Shoah came about.
> 
> One started with Hannah Arendt and concerns "the banality of evil." 
> According to this view, those who committed the crimes were cogs in 
a 
> bureaucracy, and were too brainwashed or too dedicated to their jobs 
and 
> country fully to realize how evil the bureaucracy's ends were.
> 
> The other gained great prominence with the fairly recent publication 
of of 
> Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's book "Hitler's Willing Executioners," which 
argued 
> that those who committed the crimes acted independently, based on 
racist 
> views they learned from their overwhelmingly anti-Semitic 
surroundings.
>I 
think the 
> discussions about the Imperius Curse are a reference to one of these 
two 
> views. I.e. people who claimed that they were under the Imperius 
Curse tried 
> to dodge responsibility for their actions by claiming that Voldemort 
*made* 
> them do it, and were essentially trying to use the "organization of 
evil" 
> argument. Given the level of skepticism with which many of the 
characters 
> regard these claims, it seems that JKR is throwing her lot in with 
the 
> Goldhagen/individual-responsibility view.

While this is not really my field (N. Irish Hist.), I've studied it a 
to a fair degree, and from what I've seen, I'd say 98% of the 
historians out there (myself included) don't really see it as one or 
the other. It's not "they were either A or B", it's "they were A and 
B". To a certain extent, yes, Joe German should have stepped up and 
said something. But at the same time, within Joe German's rather 
limited frame of reference (controlled carefully and successfully by 
Hitler's propaganda machine), he wasn't really doing anything all that 
bad. The Nazi's succeeded so completely in dehumanizing jews, 
homosexuals, slavs, and so on, that it was no longer "killing another 
human being", it was "putting down a rabid dog", or, worse, "squashing 
a nuisance bug". Combine this with Joe's anecdotal knowledge of what 
will happen if he DOES speak up, and you get a VERY strong incentive 
to let things ride. Certainly, we can wish that there were stronger 
people to speak up in Germany. And indeed, towards the end of the war, 
many, many German people, the military in particular, were quite 
disillusioned with Hitler and his plans, and preparing/beginning to 
speak out on the subject. But a major problem I have with Goldhagen's 
book is that what he's basically saying is that he EXPECTED each an 
every German citizen to stand up and take a stand against wrong, and 
that he/she DIDN'T makes him a "willing executioner". Ideally, that's 
all well and good, but historically speaking, is that a possibility? 
Knowing what we do about human nature (WAY not my field), is that a 
possibility? I don't think it is, and I think it's an unreasonable 
expectation for him to have. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it 
CAN'T be one or the other. I hope this made sense. I didn't mean to be 
contradictory or anything, I just thought this looked like a fun topic 
to ramble on about.
 
> Aside from the Nuremberg-esque tone of the Death Eaters' trials...

Just out of curiosity, how so? I don't think the Death Eaters' trials 
had much in common with the Nuremberg trials at all, other than the 
fact that the general audience was convinced of the defendants' guilt. 
What other similarities are you seeing that I'm not?

> Does anyone else see this in the books? I studied the period, so 
perhaps I 
> am over-inclined to see reflections of it everywhere. OTOH, I feel 
that the 
> books are capable of this level of seriousness.

I see it when I look for it, but that can go for a lot of things. I 
don't get the impression that JKR was really meaning for that to be 
something central thematically.
-Mike




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb  2 22:05:00 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:05:00 -0600
Subject: OT--Holocaust thing
References: <F195sQtgTIFprhMOgRG00003d37@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A7B2F0C.90EF3CB0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11557

Emily Owens wrote:

> The other gained great prominence with the fairly recent publication
> of of Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's book "Hitler's Willing Executioners,"
> which argued that those who committed the crimes acted independently,
> based on racist views they learned from their overwhelmingly
> anti-Semitic surroundings.

As I'm forever pointing out to people, please to remember that in
addition to the Jews, the Slavs and Gypsies were also exterminated. Just
as many Poles, Gypsies, and homosexuals died as did Jews. It wasn't just
a Jewish thing. It was a non-Aryan thing.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb  2 22:09:27 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:09:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione regarding Neville
References: <95db8h+5kjn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7B3016.AE13E681@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11558

Kimberly wrote:

> > Well, on the first train ride to Hogwarts, upon being introduced to
> Harry, Hermione says:
> >
> > > "Are you really?" said Hermione. "I know all about you, of course
> -- I
> > > got a few extra books. for background reading, and you're in
> Modern
> > > Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Great
> > > Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century.
> > > <SNIP>
> > > "Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything I could
> if it
> > > was me," said Hermione.
> > >
>
> I remembered this, but I hadn't remembered quite how rude it was.

Perhaps I'm just exceptionally socially inept, but why is this so rude?
It wouldn't have offended me...?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From john at walton.to  Fri Feb  2 22:19:21 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:19:21 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <3A7B2F0C.90EF3CB0@texas.net>
Message-ID: <B6A0E2DC.B2EF%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 11559

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> As I'm forever pointing out to people, please to remember that in
> addition to the Jews, the Slavs and Gypsies were also exterminated. Just
> as many Poles, Gypsies, and homosexuals died as did Jews. It wasn't just
> a Jewish thing. It was a non-Aryan thing.

Don't forget the 20 million Russian civilians who were killed on the Eastern
Front by the advancing Armies of the Third Reich. Oh, and the tens of
thousands of Southeast Asian people massacred by the Japanese.

--John

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  2 22:33:21 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:33:21 -0000
Subject: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <3A7B2F0C.90EF3CB0@texas.net>
Message-ID: <95fcjh+ch44@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11560

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:


> As I'm forever pointing out to people, please to remember that in
> addition to the Jews, the Slavs and Gypsies were also exterminated. Just
> as many Poles, Gypsies, and homosexuals died as did Jews. It wasn't just
> a Jewish thing. It was a non-Aryan thing.


To take even one life unjustly, in Jewish thought, is  equivalent to 
murdering the entire population of the  world, so in a sense you are 
right...but I am curious as to where you found your numbers. The 
Enclycopedia Brittanica estimates 5 to 6 million Jews and around 
400,000 Gypsies died in the Holocaust. 
 
Pippin, who did some fact checking for Ebony's fanfic.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  2 22:39:03 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:39:03 -0000
Subject: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <B6A0E2DC.B2EF%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <95fcu7+7qp6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11561

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> 
> > As I'm forever pointing out to people, please to remember that in
> > addition to the Jews, the Slavs and Gypsies were also exterminated. Just
> > as many Poles, Gypsies, and homosexuals died as did Jews. It wasn't just
> > a Jewish thing. It was a non-Aryan thing.
> 
> Don't forget the 20 million Russian civilians who were killed on the Eastern
> Front by the advancing Armies of the Third Reich. Oh, and the tens of
> thousands of Southeast Asian people massacred by the Japanese.
> 
> --John
	They should never be forgotten, but they were not Holocaust 
victims.
	The term Holocaust refers to those destroyed in the Endlosung, the  
"Final Solution', not Axis victims in general.
Pippin





From rina at love-productions.com  Fri Feb  2 22:52:47 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:52:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione regarding Neville
Message-ID: <001301c08d6a$e5c64540$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 11562

Amanda wrote:

<<Perhaps I'm just exceptionally socially inept, but why is this so rude?
It wouldn't have offended me...?>>

I'm curious, too. I don't think I would have been offended, either. <g> Is it because she was being callous about his past, and his parents' deaths? She seemed to be treating him like he was just any other person, though, not like Ginny or the people in the Leaky Cauldren. She knows he's famous, she's read all about him, and it doesn't phase her in the slightest. I'd think he'd prefer that. If she just didn't talk so much. LOL

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msl at fc.net  Fri Feb  2 23:01:36 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 23:01:36 -0000
Subject: Draco in CoS
In-Reply-To: <20010201235049.53436.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <95fe8g+v8hm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11563

While rereading CoS last night I was struck by something Draco says in
the Slytherin common room to the polyjuiced Ron and Harry.  After
reminding "Crabbe and Goyle" that he has no idea who the Heir of
Slytherin is, is says [paraphrasing from memory], "I wish I did know,
then I could help out."

Am I nuts to detect a wistful desire to be of use to people in a good
way on Draco's part?  It's the only sympathetic phrase I can remember
coming out of his mouth.

marvin




From wigeon at mindspring.com  Fri Feb  2 23:23:36 2001
From: wigeon at mindspring.com (teal)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 15:23:36 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco in CoS
References: <95fe8g+v8hm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7B4178.2FA7@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11564

msl at fc.net wrote:
> 
> While rereading CoS last night I was struck by something Draco says in
> the Slytherin common room to the polyjuiced Ron and Harry.  After
> reminding "Crabbe and Goyle" that he has no idea who the Heir of
> Slytherin is, is says [paraphrasing from memory], "I wish I did know,
> then I could help out."
> 
> Am I nuts to detect a wistful desire to be of use to people in a good
> way on Draco's part?  It's the only sympathetic phrase I can remember
> coming out of his mouth.
> 

boy did you read that differently than everyone i know.... i took it as
he wanted to help the heir, ie wanted to help get rid of the muggle born
etc..... ie far far from sympathetic at all and very expected and
consistant with his other acts and comments, and his father's for that
matter...



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 23:21:27 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 23:21:27 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: There's Something Special About Harry...
Message-ID: <F222wiqkEJTpUaJb8bA00003e8c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11565

Pippin wrote:

>	How do we know those powers *aren't* Voldie related. Wouldn't it
>be neat if the power to resist Voldemort's curse came from Voldie
>himself?
>	At several times in the narrative, a little voice, sometimes it's
>called a "nasty little voice,' speaks to Harry from the back of his
>mind. I keep wondering about that voice. Is it Harry's subconscious or
>could it be the voice of the part of Voldemort that got transferred to
>Harry, and are they by now inextricably entwined?
>

Ooh.  Pippin knows that I agree with her on many things.  :-)  Although she 
could very well be right, I hope that this is not the statement that JKR is 
making here.

I'm unsettled by the idea that any special abilities/powers that Harry 
possesses are derived from his contact with Voldemort.  A few, yes.  Some, 
perhaps.  But I hope that the core of his magical ability is innate.  To 
pick up on the Thanatos thread, can Death beget life in and of itself?  Can 
darkness bring forth life in and of itself?

Even if Harry's Vold-like powers (wand core likenesses, Parseltongue, etc.) 
were derived solely from the incident on Halloween 1981, it still doesn't 
entirely explain away the mystery of how he survived Avada Kedavra in the 
first place.

I still think there's something about Harry.  Perhaps I'll never be able to 
prove it theoretically, but that was one of the three gut feelings I had 
before I talked to a single grown-up fan.  *Especially* after reading GoF 
for the first time.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ



<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  2 23:22:56 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 23:22:56 -0000
Subject: Draco in CoS
In-Reply-To: <95fe8g+v8hm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95ffgg+omth@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11566

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., msl at f... wrote:
> While rereading CoS last night I was struck by something Draco says in
> the Slytherin common room to the polyjuiced Ron and Harry.  After
> reminding "Crabbe and Goyle" that he has no idea who the Heir of
> Slytherin is, is says [paraphrasing from memory], "I wish I did know,
> then I could help out."

What he says: "I *wish* I knew who it *is*," said Malfoy petulantly. "I 
could help them."

	I am afraid he does want to be of use, but hardly in a good way.
On the other hand, I think his remark "I hope it's Granger." (who will 
be killed by the Heir) has to be taken with a grain of salt. He's 
probably sick and tired of his Dad throwing Hermione's accomplishments 
in his face (I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no 
wizard family beat you in every exam), and has, from a twelve year 
old's point of view, a perfectly  understandable reason for wishing the 
monster at her, doncha think?

Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  2 23:47:02 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 23:47:02 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <F222wiqkEJTpUaJb8bA00003e8c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95fgtm+bbkm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11567

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
 making here.
> 
> I'm unsettled by the idea that any special abilities/powers that Harry 
> possesses are derived from his contact with Voldemort.  A few, yes.  Some, 
> perhaps.  But I hope that the core of his magical ability is innate.  To 
> pick up on the Thanatos thread, can Death beget life in and of itself?  Can 
> darkness bring forth life in and of itself?

	Oh, I'm not saying Harry would have been a Muggle, or that all his 
special abilities derive from Voldie. Harry's Quidditch skills don't 
descend from Voldie...the kids don't find any Quidditch trophies with 
Riddle's name on them, and Tom never betrays any enthusiasm for the 
sport. But if Harry's powers and Voldie's have become entwined, then it 
may cost him part or all of Harry's own powers to defeat the Dark Lord. 
	I don't think that Voldemort is innately evil. I think the books 
are saying that evil is a choice, made by us, or forced on us by others 
who have chosen. Voldemort may identify with Death and Evil, but he is 
neither Death nor Evil incarnate, and any powers  transferred to Harry 
could be used either for evil or good. It's Harry's choice.

> entirely explain away the mystery of how he survived Avada Kedavra in the 
> first place.
	I think Lily had more to do with it than Harry. Her love, her 
skill in charms, and her knowledge, perhaps, of ancient magic, known to 
few, plus being a Muggle born. Voldie underestimated her...it's a habit 
of his.
Pippin





From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Feb  2 23:19:54 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:19:54 -0500
Subject: Super Harry?
Message-ID: <200102022351.f12NpxC16201@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11568

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> Would someone who does not subscribe to the "There's Something 
Special About
> Harry" theories please explain away PS/SS Ch. 1?  Even the opening 
seems to
> foreshadow his unique status.

Several people have responded to this already, but as usual I'll throw in my 2 
knuts too.  I don't think anyone has ever argued that Harry isn't unique-of 
course he is!  He's the only person to survive the Avada Kedavra curse!  Of 
course there's something special about him-the very fact that he survived.  
But that doesn't mean he has superpowers either.  Anyway, a lot of other 
people have argued this more eloquently than I, so I'll leave it there.

Kimberly wrote:
>He's "The Boy Who Lived", but I don't think he's The Boy
>Who Singlehandedly Defeated Evil Because He's Something Different
>From All The Other Wizards.  The fact that he lived makes him clearly
>different, but it doesn't necessarily follow that he belongs in a
>Marvel Comic ;).  At least I hope not.

That's exactly how I feel, Kimberly!  And I really hope it doesn't turn out 
that way as well.  It just wouldn't fit, IMHO.


Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Feb  2 23:25:45 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:25:45 -0500
Subject: SHIP: Same Ship, Different Day
Message-ID: <200102022357.f12NvsC16950@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11569

It's Captain Kathy, back with more terrible puns on the word "ship"!

Penny said:
>This criticism that gets dished out to the other characters from R/H types
>extends not only to Harry (everything from boring to inconsiderate/selfish)
>and Hermione (bossy
>know-it-all hen-pecking shrew, who nonetheless "should" be paired up with Ron
>(inexplicably)) but also to Sirius and a wide variety of other characters.

Actually, I believe it was Elizabeth who made the hen-pecked comment, though I 
don't recall her ever using the word "shrew". And Elizabeth has made it clear 
that she does not travel on the Good Ship R/H, but rather prefers to take 
refuge on the U-Boat No Ship.  I have been doing an informal survey, as Penny 
suggested, and I have yet to find any Hermione-haters among our crew.

As to the Sirius bit, did I miss something?  (I'm not being sarcastic here, 
I'm honestly wondering.)  I don't recall anyone criticizing Sirius any more 
than Ron, in fact the recent thread has mostly been comparing the two.  (Maybe 
it's comparing him to Ron that you consider the insult? <g>  Just kidding, 
just kidding, I know you don't hate Ron!)  Some people have mentioned that 
they thought he was rash or had a temper, but that's true of Ron too, and we 
love him.  Or were you referring to something else?

Penny wrote:
>I don't think I said "several"
>times, but I do think she tried to do some go-between mediating early >on
>in the fight.  When it became apparent that neither of them were
>listening, she chose to spend her time with Harry.  I still think that
>Hermione spent virtually all her time with Harry during this fight --
>after the initial mediation attempts failed -- I can't imagine when >she
>might have had any chance to be with Ron otherwise given that she was
>with Harry at meal-times, in between classes, during classes, etc.

Though you have a point, I still disagree.  From GoF, UK ed, p. 277: "Hermione 
was furious with the pair of them; she went from one to the other, trying to 
force them to talk to each other. . ."  To me, this indicates that she didn't 
give up.  True, she clearly spent most of her time with Harry, but I maintain 
that that was because Ron monopolized all of Harry's other friends and she 
wasn't about to abandon Harry.  Another point about loyalty:  I agree with you 
Penny (yes, I said agree!) that Hermione is very loyal, and I don't think she 
would give up on Ron anymore than she would Harry.

Cassie wrote:
> Cassie again: But I don't actually think Penny would mind if you did
> come aboard the H/H and announce Harry was boring (which actually I
> think you
> have, over on the PoU list -- it could be considered an H/H haven,
> since all the listmoms are H/H.) It's your business if you find Harry
> boring (although suffering through a series of books about him, from
>his POV, must be tedious for you.)

And Penny added:
>That's correct.  I wouldn't mind -- everyone is entitled to their
>opinion.  Like Cassie, I don't know what appeal the series has for you
>if Harry is such a boring character.  But, that's just my take on it.
><g>

Yes, but then I ducked back into the corner as quickly as possible.  It's not 
that I don't feel welcome on PoU; it's just that I see things from a different 
perspective.  I don't think anyone has ever said that you weren't entitled to 
your opinions.  I think the message was more intended to be "Keep your 
opinions, just don't bash mine."

As to Harry being boring, well, clearly I don't find him completely boring, or 
I wouldn't be an HP nut, now would I?  I merely meant that I find him less 
interesting than Ron or Hermione, and I find his love life even less 
interesting.

And by the way, both the R/H ship rules and the SugarQuill Daily Affirmations 
are intended to be joking, you do realize that right?  Because I have gotten 
the impression that a whole lot of people are not taking them in the spirit in 
which they are intended.

And, by the by, there is no actual ship called the R/H, it's a metaphor, an 
idea.  So you can't really visit it.  Ok, I know everyone knows that, but I 
just needed to point it out, because I am wondering why everyone's getting so 
worked up.

Penny said:
> There's definitely a middle-ground, and that's where I
>fall.  I don't think it qualifies as "Weasley-bashing" to consider the
>theoretical possibility that Ron's jealous insecurity & obvious desire
>for wealth and recognition might make him a very vulnerable target for
>Voldemort & the dark side.  But, anything short of "Ron would *never*
>betray his friend Harry, not under *any* circumstances" seems to be
>labelled as "Weasley-bashing."

OK, this comment drove me up the wall, because I, the Captain of the R/H, have 
participated in several discussions on this topic and even posted a message 
just a few days ago explaining why I once thought this theory a possibility 
but no longer do.  This is a topic that has been discussed at SugarQuill.  So 
I really think it's an unfair statement.

> Cassie said:
> > >I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has feeling
>
> > >for Ginny
> >
> Kathy: And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that doesn't
> stop people  from believing in H/H either.
>
> Cassie: And I see no evidence that Hermione likes Ron, but that
> doesn't stop people from believing in R/H.

Well, I suppose I left myself open for that one!  I was merely trying to point 
out that you can't use "A likes B, we don't know about B's feelings for A" as 
a basis for one ship, and discredit it as the basis for another.  (I might 
also point out that's there's a heck of a lot more canon evidence that could 
be interpreted as Hermione-likes-Ron than there is for Harry-likes-Hermione, 
regardless of how you choose to interpret it.)

Penny wrote:
>I don't necessarily see it as an intentional knowing betrayal at all.
>I just think Ron has the potential to be blinded by his desire for
>wealth & fame to the point of unwittingly falling into a trap set by
>Voldy & his death-eaters.  ::::shrugs::::  It's a *possibility* in my
>mind.

And this is the reason that I once thought this possible too.  Ron does have 
weakness, after all.  (See, I criticized Ron! <g>) But I really think he's a 
stronger character than that.  As for the betrayal-over-Hermione thing, I 
think I posted at length on that thread a few months ago, but I really have 
come to feel that he would value his friendships with both Harry and Hermione 
more than that (even if Hermione didn't like him back ;)

Penny wrote:
>And Ron never reacts (or defends Hermione) because of pent-up anger?
><g>  Sorry, but I agree with Parker -- Harry was clearly defending
>Hermione in this scene.  Ron rushed toward Hermione while Harry was
>still "engaged in battle" so to speak.  "Harry *turned* and saw Ron
>dragging Hermione's hand away from her face ...."  It's not as if >Harry
>just vented his anger and didn't bother to see what happened to >Hermione
>after all was said & done.

I never said that Harry wasn't defending Hermione, I was merely pointing out 
that that wasn't the only thing he was thinking (or even necessarily the first 
thing he was thinking).  And I do agree that many of Ron's reactions are 
pent-up anger, but we have seen a whole lot of times where he goes after 
anyone insulting her, and I don't believe every single one of them is due to 
his repressed ire.  The bottom line is, they're both her friends, regardless 
of any other feelings any of the 3 of them may have, so of course they'll both 
defend her.  It's not necessarily evidence of H/H or R/H or anything else for 
that matter.

Scott wrote:
>I'm not even saying that I think Ron will betray Harry knowingly
>(that is if he does). Perhaps someone that Ron trusts will trick him.
>Or perhaps in a moment of anger he'll let something slip and then try
>to fix.  If he does betray Harry in some way I can see him coming
>back and trying to fix things, or dying heroically trying...

<groans and covers eyes> And that's exactly what I am afraid of, and the 
reason I will probably read each of the next 3 books in one sitting, on pins 
and needles.

Scott again:
>WOW, I actually agree with you here! (goggling at the fact). For all
>practical purposes the death of Harry would also be the end of the
>canon. If Ron were to die then the reader would experience Harry (and
>Hermione and everyone else's pain) at the experience as well as
>feeling their own pain. This could easily make it more difficult.

Can't respond. . . Too choked up. . . See above

B. Bennett wrote:
>You're right,
>Penny - we can all get a little too wrapped up in the process of
>defending our favorite characters.

Hoo boy, ya think? <g>  You know, the people in my 3-D life never believe it 
when I tell them about the conversations on here!  It is actually quite 
comforting to know there are other people as obsessed as I am.  How did people 
ever support obsessions like this before the Internet?

Firoza wrote:
>Just adding my small
>voice to G/H and adding my name to the Good Ship R/H (LOL, what a
>concept- ships/shippers, hilarious!).

Welcome aboard Firoza!  Glad to have you!

Firoza again
>Now just to ramble a bit, I have read PoU, ASA, DD and enjoyed the
>stories, but their pairings quite frankly don't ring true to me
>(despite their awesome and talented writers).

That's exactly how I feel too.  All of them are incredibly good stories and 
very very well-written, but they don't fit my view of the characters.  That's 
not to say there's anything wrong with them at all; everybody has a different 
perspective on the pairings, it seems.

Firoza again:
>So that is why I identify with R/H (bickering adds
>spice to life) and H/G (first crush/love CAN lead to a permanent
>relationship. My personal experience may happen rarely in the real
>world, BUT it is possible nevertheless :-)

LOL!  I have known my husband since 4th grade and we bicker constantly (in 
fact, my absence yesterday was due to some, er, volatile, moments over whose 
turn it was to use the computer last night). So maybe that's why I prefer R/H 
(although I still think my Harry-look-alike-broke-my-heart theory has a lot of 
merit too!).

Firoza again:
>The Good Ship R/H,
>may it float forever :-)

Amen to that!

Signing off, 
Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
Who just posted part 12 of her story by the way (the Yule Ball scene) so click 
here if you want to read it:
www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=162160&chapter=12




From john at walton.to  Fri Feb  2 23:59:51 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 23:59:51 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <95fcu7+7qp6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6A0FA77.B308%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 11570

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
>> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
>> 
>>> As I'm forever pointing out to people, please to remember that in
>>> addition to the Jews, the Slavs and Gypsies were also exterminated. Just
>>> as many Poles, Gypsies, and homosexuals died as did Jews. It wasn't just
>>> a Jewish thing. It was a non-Aryan thing.
>> 
>> Don't forget the 20 million Russian civilians who were killed on the Eastern
>> Front by the advancing Armies of the Third Reich. Oh, and the tens of
>> thousands of Southeast Asian people massacred by the Japanese.
>> 
>> --John
> They should never be forgotten, but they were not Holocaust
> victims.
> The term Holocaust refers to those destroyed in the Endlosung, the
> "Final Solution', not Axis victims in general.

::takes a deep breath and counts to ten::

Pippin, I'm sure that you didn't mean it to come across as such, but that
last message really made me angry in that it seemed to insinuate that the
deaths of those who were not specifically singled out for genocide by Hitler
on his insane Aryan crusade were "less important" than those not
specifically targetted.

Remember, there were MORE "non-genocide" victims than those killed in the
name of the Aryan "race". Three to four times as many, in fact. And what
does the international community do to the perpetrators of THOSE crimes?
Nurnburg? Nope. Trying them well into their eighth decade? Naw. Zip. Zilch.
Nada.

Forgive the OTness of this post. I've been studying the post-WWII fallout
last term and have some fairly strong opinions. If another of the Moderator
team (who, unlike me, would be impartial here) wants to step in and call a
halt to this thread, feel free.

--John, student of International Relations

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Feb  3 00:09:46 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (Jeralyn)
Date: 2 Feb 2001 16:09:46 -0800
Subject: Trouble in Paradise
Message-ID: <20010203000946.938.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11571

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From mschub at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 00:32:37 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 00:32:37 -0000
Subject: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <B6A0FA77.B308%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <95fjj5+s8m9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11572

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:

> ::takes a deep breath and counts to ten::
> 
> Pippin, I'm sure that you didn't mean it to come across as such, but 
that
> last message really made me angry in that it seemed to insinuate 
that the
> deaths of those who were not specifically singled out for genocide 
by Hitler
> on his insane Aryan crusade were "less important" than those not
> specifically targetted.

I hate to speak for someone else, but that's really not what I got 
from Pippin's message at all. This whole thing started with a 
discussion of "Holocaust victims". He was merely pointing out that 
those people were NOT "Holocaust victims". Were their deaths just as 
"important" as those in the Holocaust? Absolutely. But the fact is, 
those casualties are not attirbuted to, and do not fall under the 
heading of, "the Holocaust"
 
> Remember, there were MORE "non-genocide" victims than those killed 
in the
> name of the Aryan "race". Three to four times as many, in fact. And 
what
> does the international community do to the perpetrators of THOSE 
crimes?
> Nurnburg? Nope. Trying them well into their eighth decade? Naw. Zip. 
Zilch.
> Nada.

Big, big, big, big, gigantic difference. There's a big difference 
between soldiers killed in battle and non-combatants killed outside of 
that sphere. Debates on the righteousness of war aside, a soldier 
CANNOT be tried on any level for taking the life of an enemy during a 
battle. It would be no more fair to gather up a group of Nazi grunts 
and put them on trial for murder than it would be fair to gather up a 
group of revolutionary Minute Men and do the same thing. There is a 
tremendous amount of difference there. I personally am anti-war, as, 
I would suspect, are most people. An end to war would be an undeniable 
good. But I am wholeheartedly against prosecuting soldiers fighting 
DURING a war.
We are like, WAY off topic here... I TA'd a class on the Nazi rise to 
power a while back. I wish you had been in that class, we could have 
had some very interesting arguments.
-Mike




From john at walton.to  Sat Feb  3 00:40:58 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 00:40:58 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <95fjj5+s8m9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6A1041A.B317%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 11573

mschub at yahoo.com wrote:

> Big, big, big, big, gigantic difference. There's a big difference
> between soldiers killed in battle and non-combatants killed outside of
> that sphere.

I was referring principally to the 20-odd million Russian civilians killed
while Hitler's army advanced into Russia -- not, as I think you thought,
combatants.

> Debates on the righteousness of war aside, a soldier
> CANNOT be tried on any level for taking the life of an enemy during a
> battle. It would be no more fair to gather up a group of Nazi grunts
> and put them on trial for murder than it would be fair to gather up a
> group of revolutionary Minute Men and do the same thing.

Indeed. The winning side's Freedom Fighter is the losing side's Terrorist.

> We are like, WAY off topic here... I TA'd a class on the Nazi rise to
> power a while back. I wish you had been in that class, we could have
> had some very interesting arguments.
> -Mike

I know we are :) Don't worry, we Moderators are seriously considering a
means whereby we can continue these interesting though off-topic
discussions. 

--John

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Feb  3 00:49:34 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 00:49:34 -0000
Subject: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <B6A0FA77.B308%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <95fkiu+282e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11574

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> >> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> >> 
> >>> As I'm forever pointing out to people, please to remember that in
> >>> addition to the Jews, the Slavs and Gypsies were also exterminated. Just
> >>> as many Poles, Gypsies, and homosexuals died as did Jews. It wasn't just
> >>> a Jewish thing. It was a non-Aryan thing.
> >> 
> >> Don't forget the 20 million Russian civilians who were killed on the Eastern
> >> Front by the advancing Armies of the Third Reich. Oh, and the tens of
> >> thousands of Southeast Asian people massacred by the Japanese.
> >> 
> >> --John
> > They should never be forgotten, but they were not Holocaust
> > victims.
> > The term Holocaust refers to those destroyed in the Endlosung, the
> > "Final Solution', not Axis victims in general.
> 
> ::takes a deep breath and counts to ten::
> 
> Pippin, I'm sure that you didn't mean it to come across as such, but that
> last message really made me angry in that it seemed to insinuate that the
> deaths of those who were not specifically singled out for genocide by Hitler
> on his insane Aryan crusade were "less important" than those not
> specifically targetted.

	See my previous post...no human soul is less important than 
another...or less deserving of justice. You are right, it bears 
repeating. I will gladly shout it from the rooftops. I tried to word my 
post so as not to insinuate otherwise. 
  The word Holocaust refers properly to a specific historic catastrophe 
which was only a part of the general destructiveness of the Hitler 
regime. Whether it 'should' mean that...another question entirely and 
off topic for this list, although I would be glad to hear your views. 
Email me..
Pippin





From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Sat Feb  3 01:43:11 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 01:43:11 -0000
Subject: SHIP/FANFIC ships, Ron, etc.
In-Reply-To: <95dd98+4ucj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95fnnf+a50v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11575

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote: (Re: sugarquill)

> Well,  I hang out there and I it's known that I *obssessively* 
> follow your stories AND have recommended PoU, so if they 
> tolerate me, it can't be too bad, can it? :*) Really, There's been 
a   lot of interesting conversation at Sugarquill, and Ron is most 
> definitely not hero worshipped (ok, maybe a joking comment or 
> two. And talk about the Weasley's pretty red hair. But that's it - 
I  promise). You mentioned you got this impression from posts to 
> HP4GU, but I see very few  SugarQuill "regulars" who are active 
> here (Kathy and Zsenya aside. Hi Kathy! Hi Zsenya!).  You should 
> stop back to visit sometime - it's a great site.

You're a sweetie, B. I spent about an hour there (at sugarquill.com) 
today.

Moving on...

B. wrote: See my  "speccy little git" comment above. Ron can 
definitely be  a brat (snip)I've read  the same sort of "how dare 
you" reactions regarding criticism of  Harry here and on the PoU 
list, so it's not an exclusive trait.    You're right, Penny - we can 
all get a little too wrapped up in the  process of defending our 
favorite characters. 

<g> Very true. Although my favorite character (well, he shares the 
pedestal with Harry) is Draco, who is pretty much universally hated, 
so I hope I don't bristle too much at criticism of my favorites, or 
I'd be doomed to a life of endless frustration. 

B wrote: Of course, I also understand some think that because Harry 
  notices Ron's bare ankles he's hot for him, so maybe all of the 
  R/H H/H people are in for a surprise.  

Well, it's been mentioned that one of the few things the H/H and the 
R/H camps have in common is that both would rather see Ron and Harry 
get together than see the boy they don't endorse wind up with 
Hermione. I know I would. <g> I think Ron and Harry would be cute 
together, shopping for Tupperware in Diagon Alley...Finally an 
alternative to the cliched Hero Gets the Girl and the (IMO) equally 
shopworn Sidekick Gets the Girl....Hero Gets the Sidekick! Now 
there's a burst of originality for you.


Firebolt wrote: (in reference to "Harry is Batman.")
But Cassie, the problem with that is that Robin would then be taller 
than Batman - and don't you think the red, green, yellow and black 
would clash horribly with Ron's hair? <vbg>


*shudders at the idea of Ron in yellow and green* Now, shoving poor 
Ron into a Robin suit, IMHO, definitely qualifies as Weasley-bashing. 
Thank you, Firebolt -- you have just inspired a new chapter of Draco 
Dexter. :P


Kathy wrote: And by the way, both the R/H ship rules and the 
SugarQuill Daily Affirmations are intended to be joking, you do 
realize that right?  Because I have gotten the impression that a 
whole lot of people are not taking them in the spirit in 
which they are intended.

Even if they are joking, they do serve to further polarize us into 
opposing camps. Which, frankly, is beginning to be depressing. To me, 
anyway. 

Cassie





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Feb  3 02:00:35 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 02:00:35 -0000
Subject: SHIP/FANFIC ships, Ron, etc.
In-Reply-To: <95fnnf+a50v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95foo3+rp98@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11576

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:

> Well, it's been mentioned that one of the few things the H/H and the 
> R/H camps have in common is that both would rather see Ron and Harry 
> get together than see the boy they don't endorse wind up with 
> Hermione. I know I would. 

	Poor Hermione! condemned to a life alone, all in the name of peace 
and originality...oh well, I guess Batman's available <g>
Pippin





From meg at fenya.net  Sat Feb  3 02:12:02 2001
From: meg at fenya.net (Meghan)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 18:12:02 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP/FANFIC ships, Ron, etc.
References: <95foo3+rp98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7B68F2.3FB4A01F@fenya.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11577

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> 
> > Well, it's been mentioned that one of the few things the H/H and the
> > R/H camps have in common is that both would rather see Ron and Harry
> > get together than see the boy they don't endorse wind up with
> > Hermione. I know I would.
> 
>         Poor Hermione! condemned to a life alone, all in the name of peace
> and originality...oh well, I guess Batman's available <g>
> Pippin

[I'm new.  Hi.  Ebony, I don't have your AIM any more.  We must do evil
things soon. XD]

Nononono.

Harry and Draco get together, because it is pretty and sparkly and I
like it.  Ron gets together with maybe the Irish kid, on account of
they're both sports freaks.  I'd say Neville, but that's a little scary
for even a member of the Evil Sinker/Destroyer Who Cares? It's Pretty.  

And having thus neatly cleared Herimone of any attachments, she can then
go to her natural place with Cho.  ^_^

Harry: *sincerely* You're scary.
Meg: I just woke up.
Harry: That's even scarier.
Meg: Would you like to hear about the Snape/Your Father thing?
Harry: O_O;;;;;

meg



From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb  3 02:35:49 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:35:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT--Holocaust thing
References: <95fcjh+ch44@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7B6E84.42F091A4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11578

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> To take even one life unjustly, in Jewish thought, is  equivalent to
> murdering the entire population of the  world, so in a sense you are
> right...but I am curious as to where you found your numbers. The
> Enclycopedia Brittanica estimates 5 to 6 million Jews and around
> 400,000 Gypsies died in the Holocaust.
>
> Pippin, who did some fact checking for Ebony's fanfic.

Well, I'm remembering general numbers from a research paper I did a
thousand years ago. But I found you a couple of sites (being both lazy
and encumbered by a sinus headache, I scanned the web rather than flip
through our books).

Here's a good URL for the specific subject of the non-Jewish Poles
killed by the Holocaust:
http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/

This is about the treatment of Poles under the Nazi regime, in general:
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/people/USHMMPOL.HTM

And this is the master site, A Teacher's Guide to the Holocaust, from
which the preceding two were taken. Several of the sources listed in
their bibliography are the books I was too lazy to go down and flip
through:
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/people/VictPole.htm

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb  3 02:42:33 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:42:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT--Holocaust thing
References: <95fcjh+ch44@eGroups.com> <3A7B6E84.42F091A4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A7B7018.A8664560@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11579

Whoops, here's one last URL, a very good one if you're interested in the
non-Jewish Holocaust victims--it was a link off one of the others, and I
just browsed it. That's it now, I swear, listparentsz.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/non-jewish.shtml

--Amanda
[I'm a Lewanski, *and* I'm an editor. I can't *help* but be anal about
it. <g>]




From duo at dangerous-minds.com  Sat Feb  3 03:43:39 2001
From: duo at dangerous-minds.com (Nathan)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:43:39 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death Eater Name
In-Reply-To: <3A7B2CB8.3E4C78C1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJDFLDJGEHGEPJKICKEKOCFAA.jin@fastmail.i-next.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11580

A tangent to the Death Eater name:

It wouldn't reallty matter what name was used. Voldemort could've called his
group "The Clowns" and no one would laugh at them after they'd killed a lot
of people.

Nathan




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Feb  3 03:38:43 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 03:38:43 -0000
Subject: The WB Website-banning frenzy (was: Countingdown.com...)
In-Reply-To: <B6A0D35B.B2DD%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <95fug3+h1vv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11581

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Heidi said:
> > One of hte other things up there is a cite to a report on the 
Leaky
> > Cauldron website which says that Entertainment Rewired has an 
article
> > about a WB-given apology for the way it's acted towards Web site
> > owners who have domains with "Harry Potter" as part of them.
> > This is a good thing : )
> 
> For more information (and for what you can do to help stop WB 
sending
> threatening letters to folks with URLs containing the words "Harry 
Potter"),
> visit 
> 
> www.potterwar.co.uk
> 
> Don't worry, it's not an anti-HP site :) Just somewhere to see what 
WB has
> really been doing with the issue. It's eye-opening.
> 
> --John 
> 
> == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==
> 
> John Walton                 john at w...
> 
> "Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing 
evils, as
> distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with 
others."
> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914
> 
> == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John--

Thanks for the information on this website.  *However*, it seems to 
be out of commission--I've tried it about 4 times & I keep getting 
the dreaded "This site cannot be displayed" message (or whatever it 
reads) GRR!! Please advise!!

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Feb  3 03:19:22 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 21:19:22 -0600
Subject: FF: Fanfic Plugs
Message-ID: <3A7B78BA.68A416A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11582

Hi --

I wanted to chime in & second Jeralyn's hearty recommendation of our
Ebony's ongoing "Trouble in Paradise" series.  I know I've plugged that
one before, but it bears repeating.  It's amazing!!!

I also finally got around to reading our Heidi's ongoing "Surfeit of
Curses" yesterday, and now I have another fanfic that I cannot say
enough good things about.  It's one of the most creative & inspired
fanfics out there.  I was literally swept away.  Like Cassie's work,
it's a very interesting look at Draco and what makes him tick.  It's
also the best "backstory" fics I've read yet -- I'm on pins & needles to
see her version of the backstory to GoF.  The PoA backstory blew me
away.  It's all completely plausible & entertaining.  Doesn't hurt that
it builds up Hermione as an even stronger character (something I'm
always in favor of).  :--)  Anyway, Heidi has obviously really given
some deep thought to the unspoken events in PoA and produced a
masterpiece in progress.

Of course, I probably don't need to add that I still think Lori and
Cassie are among the best HP fanfic writers out there.  They just have
more company now.  <g>

And, we're waiting on John to get over writers' block and get out the
next chapter of his ongoing series "Song of Time."  Hint, hint ....

Penny (feeling very inadequate when stacked against such great writing
....)




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 03:43:02 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 03:43:02 -0000
Subject: The WB Website-banning frenzy (was: Countingdown.com...)
In-Reply-To: <95fug3+h1vv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95fuo6+lre4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11583

John wrote: 

> > www.potterwar.co.uk



> John--
> 
> Thanks for the information on this website.  *However*, it seems to 
> be out of commission--I've tried it about 4 times & I keep getting 
> the dreaded "This site cannot be displayed" message (or whatever it 
> reads) GRR!! Please advise!!
> 
> Peace & Plenty, 
> 
> Parker

Try 

www.potterwar.org.uk

Cheers,
Heather M.




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Feb  3 03:58:17 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 03:58:17 -0000
Subject: The WB Website-banning frenzy (was: Countingdown.com...)
In-Reply-To: <95fuo6+lre4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95fvkp+f77e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11584

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
> John wrote: 
> 
> > > www.potterwar.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> > John--
> > 
> > Thanks for the information on this website.  *However*, it seems 
to 
> > be out of commission--I've tried it about 4 times & I keep 
getting 
> > the dreaded "This site cannot be displayed" message (or whatever 
it 
> > reads) GRR!! Please advise!!
> > 
> > Peace & Plenty, 
> > 
> > Parker
> 
> Try 
> 
> www.potterwar.org.uk
> 
> Cheers,
> Heather M.

Thanks, Heather--that one worked!  

The site is worth checking out everyone!

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From bbennett at joymail.com  Sat Feb  3 03:59:50 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 03:59:50 -0000
Subject: FF: Fanfic Plugs
In-Reply-To: <3A7B78BA.68A416A@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95fvnm+jnvu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11585

Penny wrote: 

> I wanted to chime in & second Jeralyn's hearty 
recommendation of our Ebony's ongoing "Trouble in Paradise" 
series.  I know I've plugged that one before, but it bears 
repeating.  It's amazing!!! > 

To throw another plug in there, anyone who hasn't read 
Arabella's HQoW (Hermione, Queen of Witches) is missing 
something. She tackles each book from the point of view of 
Hermione's journal, which she pulls off beautifully by making the 
diary a character in itself. She does write Hermione as having a 
growing interest in Ron - that aside (for the H/H contigent :*), her 
characterizations are outstanding and true to canon. It is literally 
like getting to read the books all over again, but with a new and 
exciting twist.

> Penny (feeling very inadequate when stacked against such 
great writing> ....)

You shouldn't. Your writing made me interested in Sirius. 

Best,
B.




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Feb  3 04:04:43 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:04:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FF: Fanfic Plugs
Message-ID: <003f01c08d96$76becb00$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 11586

B wrote:

<<To throw another plug in there, anyone who hasn't read 
Arabella's HQoW (Hermione, Queen of Witches) is missing 
something. >>

I'm seconding this rec. I actually got someone hooked on the books by having her read this series first. LOL She hadn't thought the books would interest her, but she got pulled in by Hermione. Now she's finding it odd to read things from Harry's POV. <g>

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 04:26:11 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:26:11 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP/FANFIC ships, etc.
References: <95foo3+rp98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <025e01c08d99$707c9760$b311eda9@y1j2s0>

No: HPFGUIDX 11587

Hello,

> Poor Hermione! condemned to a life alone, all in the name of peace
> and originality...oh well, I guess Batman's available <g>

Well, there's always Ginny...<eg>.  Seriously, though, I don't see Hermione
with either of the boys as of right now.  She just seems more mature than
either of them, as girls her age will.  But seriously, one of the reason why
I prefer Harry/Draco is that, well, Ron and Hermione can stay together.
Yes, I'm a RAW/HG girl. :-)

little Alex




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Feb  3 04:12:38 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:12:38 -0600
Subject: Molly Weasley
References: <959ig1+lku3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7B8536.A8EAF62D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11588

Hi --

Amy Z wrote:

> Anyone think that Molly is ticked at Hermione not only for throwing
> over Harry dear, but also for not tumbling to the fact that Molly's
> Ronnikins loves her?  (Mothers have a talent for knowing we like
> someone before we even know it ourselves.)

I know others have responded to this, but I feel compelled to chime in a
bit.  I think Molly has really taken Harry under her wing, and she was
annoyed with Hermione on his behalf.  It seemed to me that the chill
between Molly & Hermione thawed after Harry told her that Hermione
hadn't "done him wrong" so to speak.

> Re:  Molly and Arthur, I think "henpecked" is way too strong a word
> (not to mention a tad misogynist).

I said a "bit" henpecked.  But, you're right -- that's probably not the
best word choice.  OTOH, I think labelling my post as "misogynist" is a
tad strong too).  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 04:36:59 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 04:36:59 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP/FANFIC ships, Ron, etc.
Message-ID: <F228LPwahzHRAuAMzUK00004222@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11589

>[I'm new.  Hi.  Ebony, I don't have your AIM any more.  We must do evil
>things soon. XD]

The Mod Squad is going to absolutely kill me for Death-Eating bandwidth in 
such a frivolous fashion, but I had to give Meg a public hug!  :::schnoogles 
Meg:::  This is one of the SuperKindreds from the huge and long-running LMM 
list that I'm currently in deep lurkdom on... who runs a great LMM fanfic 
archive... and is a great friend... and I hope she posts a lot here.

Anyway...

>Nononono.
>
>Harry and Draco get together, because it is pretty and sparkly and I
>like it.  Ron gets together with maybe the Irish kid, on account of
>they're both sports freaks.  I'd say Neville, but that's a little scary
>for even a member of the Evil Sinker/Destroyer Who Cares? It's Pretty.
>
>And having thus neatly cleared Hermione of any attachments, she can then go 
>to her natural place with Cho.  ^_^

Let's see... I'm not a slash expert by any means.  The one slashy pairing I 
do like if it's well-written is Harry/Ron.  Rhysenn wrote a Harry/Ron fic 
that I absolutely adored... although she usually writes Harry/Draco.

>Harry: *sincerely* You're scary.
>Meg: I just woke up.
>Harry: That's even scarier.
>Meg: Would you like to hear about the Snape/Your Father thing?
>Harry: O_O;;;;;
Ebony:  It gets worse, Harry.  Stay tuned.

Again, Meg, welcome!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 04:58:29 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 04:58:29 -0000
Subject: Special Harry? and Voldemort qs
In-Reply-To: <200102022351.f12NpxC16201@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <95g35l+hndj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11590

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at c...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
> wrote:
> > Would someone who does not subscribe to the "There's Something 
> Special About
> > Harry" theories please explain away PS/SS Ch. 1?  Even the 
opening 
> seems to
> > foreshadow his unique status.
<snip>

I guess I'll try to explain why I think "there's something about 
Harry" too. (You know, this line is begging for a very twisted parody 
to be written...) But I don't think there is anything *conclusive* in 
the text yet. 
Some of the things special to Harry can be explained away by his 
mother's sacrifice or by the after-effects of botched Avada 
Kedavra...others seem more mysterious. 

1) Parseltongue power, ability to sense Voldemort-explained by after-
effects of AK. These are extraneous powers that Harry would rather 
not have. Would the fact that they share the wand core also be like 
this? I get the feeling the wand is supposed to express something 
about the inner-most nature of the wizard, although this is just an 
impression. Has Harry gotten anything else from Voldemort? 

2) Surviving Voldemort's Avada Kedavra. It seems to be Lily's 
sacrifice, as Dumbledore implies this; kind of an "ancient magic" 
thing. The counter argument is this:  Avada Kedavra is a curse 
predating Voldemort, apparently. In past times, probably many wizards 
have been killed by it, especially if there are periodic dark wizard 
uprisings. Has no one ever been willing to sacrifice themselves for 
another like that before? Perhaps there are other factors as well 
making Harry's situation unique, like him being an infant, or the 
parent-child bond. Remember that everybody seems to find this 
*unprecedented* in wizarding history, and they don't say "because of 
his mother's sacrifice, young Harry Potter lived." There doesn't seem 
to be much certainty as to exactly why Harry lived. On the other 
hand, I can see Rowling taking the first tack equally well, 
emphasizing the sacrifice. 

3) Being singled out by Voldemort in the first place. Many people 
conjecture that this means that Trelawney's prophecy said that Harry 
would one day defeat Voldemort, which shows up in a lot of myths. In 
canon, though, it's unclear why exactly Voldemort targeted the 
Potters, said that Lily didn't have to die, or if the prophecy has 
anything to do with Harry at all. Why Voldemort *seems* to have 
specifically gone to the Potter house to kill Harry and possibly 
James argues for some kind of specialness unexplained by other 
theories. However, as I said before, this rests on a lot of 
assumptions. 

Voldy questions....

Despite all the parallels, is Voldemort actually that much like Harry 
in personality? What was he like as a student? Kind of like Draco? In 
some ways, his school record sound more like Hermione's or Percy's. 
Was Voldemort's ancestry known among his followers? 
Some people in the series imply that Voldemort has achieved a kind of 
immortality, and in fact will never be permanently defeated. Or 
perhaps they meant this metaphorically, as there have been great dark 
wizards before Voldemort, and there will presumbably be some 
afterward. Will Harry and co have to apply "constant vigilance?" How 
did Voldemort want to achieve immortality before his defeat? Did it 
involve the Philosopher's stone or something else? 


<snip>

Charmian




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Feb  3 04:39:28 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:39:28 -0600
Subject: Ron/Sirius parallels
References: <959tqt+4fur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7B8B80.A651D5ED@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11591

Hi --

Kimberly wrote:

> I said:
> > > In PoA he was in attack/revenge/protection mode, which was quite
> > > anger-oriented,
> >
> Penny:
> > I agree with Monika & Carole that his actions appear to be less
> > motivated by *anger* as they are by PTSD, stress, etc.
>
> Kimberly: I think the anger may have been fueled by those things, but
> I don't think that the presence of those things negates the anger.
>
> Sudden and possibly useful realization:
> I think the fundamental problem in our understanding each other's
> points of view in this instance is that I see anger as a valid
> emotion - one that can sometimes lead to inappropriate actions, and
> needs to be controlled, but not something that is bad and wrong.  As
> an example from my Christian perspective, Jesus was angry at the way
> the temple had been turned into a marketplace, and he dealt with it in
>
> a very angry manner.  So to me anger is not necessarily bad, but it
> can sometimes be dangerous.  From your responses I'm thinking maybe
> you see it differently?

No, not at all.  I don't think anger is always a "bad" emotion by any
means.  My original point (I think -- <g>) was just that I'm not sure we
can correctly ascribe a hot temper personality trait to Sirius.  That's
all.  I have no judgments about anger -- it's a valid emotion in many
cases.

> Ok, I can buy that - it's true we don't know what motivated it [the
> werewolf prank by Sirius].  I was assuming it was anger because the
> alternative as I saw it was something far more frightening.  But I may
> be overlooking another more reasonable motivation.  What is your
> suggestion?

:::shrugs:::   I have no suggestions really.  <g>  I'm just noting that
we don't know the full story; therefore, I don't think it's fair for
people to make judgments about who was the wronged party in that
scenario without having all the facts (or more of them than we do).
Snape *appears* to be the aggrieved party, but things aren't always as
they appear to be in the JKR universe IMO.

> I may be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure he says in PoA  that
> he went looking for him, and that he wanted to kill him, but that
> Peter was too quick for him.  Can anyone tell me if I've made that up
> in my head?  It wouldn't be the first time, I admit.  But even if I
> got that wrong, as I understand it Sirius wasn't much of a suspect
> before Pettigrew created the scene, cried out that he'd betrayed James
>
> and Lily and then was 'killed' by him.

Well, I think it's reasonable to assume that he *would* have been a
prime suspect, even absent that scene with Pettigrew & the murders of
the muggles.  At *that* point, Dumbledore and Remus (and presumably most
anyone else with any knowledge of the situation) thinks Black was the
Secret-Keeper.

> Penny:
> > I agree -- that's why I added the qualifier re: if relying on grades
>
> > alone.  But, I don't see Hermione as being strictly the intellectual
>
> > type.  She puts her smarts to good use -- she uses practical
> application
> > all the time.
>
> So do you mean Remus doesn't?

I suppose he does.  He's a professor in the one case where we the
readers know him.  So, I have an image of him as an "intellectual"
bookish type -- not a "man of action."  He could be both -- I'm not
saying that isn't possible.  But, I still see a stronger parallel
between Hermione and Sirius than Hermione and Remus.  Just my opinion.

> Penny:
> >She does reflexively turn to books, and I honestly can't see Sirius
> being that type.  But, she *also* thinks on her feet & has
> > natural "brightness" -- traits I do ascribe to Sirius.
>
> Again, see above.  Can  you give me examples of where Sirius is this
> way and/or Remus is not?

No, not really.  <g>  I'm quite tired though.  It's really just a
"perception" -- not anything I have necessarily given solid thought to
at the moment.

> I really, honestly see parallels between Hermione and Lupin.  Who
> helps Harry learn the summoning spells?  Hermione.  Who helps him
> learn to create a patronus?  Lupin.  I think Lupin is very sensible;
> he thinks on his feet and is prepared.  He shows up with chocolate
> when the dementors strike because that's what is needed.  Poppy
> Pomfrey commented on that with great respect.  It was something like -
>
> finally, a DADA teacher who knows his remedies.

Oh, I see those parallels too.  Really!  I just see *more* parallels
between Hermione and Sirius.  Maybe it's just me.  I don't have much
concrete evidence tonight -- sorry.  I think she does have parallels
with both of those characters, but I just lean toward a Sirius parallel
being a bit stronger.

> But, it seems to me that he couldn't then get past his stubborness to
> accept what Hermione must have told him at least once (that Harry
> hadn't entered himself in the Tournament & was very upset/frightened).
>
> Now now ;), if I can't know the details about the Sirius/Snape
> incident, you can't know what Hermione told Ron - you can't have it
> both ways.

I'm not trying to be intellectually dishonest.  I think I said
originally (if I didn't -- I meant to) that I *assume* Hermione must
have told Ron that Harry didn't enter himself into the Tournament.  I
assume this because she did try to explain Ron's feelings to Harry, so I
logically infer that she would have tried to explain Harry's position to
Ron at some point.  That could very well be off-base, but it wouldn't be
very much like Hermione to only give Harry Ron's POV.

I think we do also know *alot* more about the Harry/Ron fight in general
than we do about the Sirius/Snape werewolf prank.  We know enough about
the Harry/Ron to make some inferences, but we have absolutely no idea
what motivated Sirius to play that prank on Snape.

> Penny:
> >If he'd made some moves toward reconciliation early on, the fight
> could have ended.
>
> Yup.  So could Harry have done.

I agree completely!  Harry needlessly prolonged that fight.  But, the
fight itself was started by Ron.

> Again, we don't know what Hermione said to him or what he was
> thinking.  I agree it was probably about jealousy, but this is even
> more speculative than my comments on Sirius and Snape as kids, since
> we do have *some* account of that incident.

See above.  I do disagree with this.  We know what happened in the
Sirius/Snape incident to be sure.  But, we know zero, zip, nada about
what motivated Sirius to do it in the first place.

We don't know if Hermione said anything to Ron (along the lines of
"Harry didn't enter himself in that Tournament.  Couldn't you see that
from the look on his face?  Besides, I've talked to him about it, and
he's really scared, Ron.").  That just sounds like a conversation she
would have had with him.  IMO.

> But I can't see how this makes him dissimilar to Sirius, as Sirius did
>
> the very same thing to Remus.  Lupin had done nothing to make his
> friends suspect him of being disloyal, but they distrusted him so much
>
> that they left him completely out of the decision to change
> secret-keepers.

Dumbledore and others suspected that *someone* close to the Potters was
passing information to Voldemort.  Something convinced Sirius that he
should trust Pettigrew rather than Lupin.  It was a wrong decision, but
we still don't know all the facts surrounding how he came to that
decision.

Anyway .... I still think Hermione has more parallels to Sirius than
Ron, but we can just agree to disagree, right?  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Feb  3 05:21:20 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:21:20 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Special Harry? and Voldemort qs
In-Reply-To: <95g35l+hndj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEKICPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11592

Don't forget... There's something about Harry having "his mother's eyes."
This remark has been made to him several times, and when someone asked JKR
in an interview if the fact that Harry has his mother's eyes was
significant, she seemed startled and admitted that yes, it was going to be
very important in the future plot.

Perhaps Lily had been born with, or developed, a very special new talent,
which she passed on to her son, either through heredity or by casting a
spell on him to transfer her talent, just before she died.

SML

>>>>>>>>
>>>>Charmian wrote:
Remember that everybody seems to find this
*unprecedented* in wizarding history, and they
don't say "because of his mother's sacrifice,
young Harry Potter lived." There doesn't seem
to be much certainty as to exactly why Harry lived.
>>>>>>>>>




From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 05:33:23 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 21:33:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Draco Redeemable? 
In-Reply-To: <3A79A264.A497266C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010203053323.29770.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11593



> Schlobin at aol.com wrote:
> > Oh, goodness, any goodness of Draco is the fantasy of someone
> otherthan JKR (with respect to those who read fanfic it's just not
> there inthe books)

and Amanda Lewanski responded: 
> Couldn't agree more. Draco's a little toad.

Alright, I fully admit that from everything we've seen so far in the
books, Draco's a slimy little git. 
But I have several reasons why I think there's a chance he could (or
at least SHOULD) be redeemed:
1 - We haven't seen Draco as anything other than Harry's
wizard-supremistist schoolyard rival, but that doesn't mean he isn't
any deeper. JKR loves throwing us for curves like that - on first
read, did any of you see Quirrel, or Moody, as evil? There's no
definite proof that she's not planning something of the sort over the
course of the next 3 books.

2 - Slytherins are supposed to be cunning. So far all we've seen of
the entire slytherin house (except Snape, and to extent, Tom Riddle)
is mean spirited-ness and stupid jokes. I think that there should be
ways to use cunningness to fight for worthwhile causes. I think that
it's poor planning on JKR's part to show an entire house as nothing
but worthless children. She needs to come up with other three
dimentional characters who wrangle with moral issues (ie: Snape)if
she wants to show evil without softening it or trivializing it. Harry
needs to realize that no one can be (or should be... in the case of
Voldie the Cartoon Villain, I digress) pure evil. 

3 - At some point, I also need to make a post about the number of
death eater's children who are in Harry's year... for a group of 30
or so members in the graveyard, does it strike anyone else as weird
that *five* of them had kids (or kids with suspiciously similiar last
names that just happened to be put in Slytherin) born in 1980? With
that kind of company, is it any wonder Draco puts on a show about
being pro-voldemort? He's very interested in maintaining his
leadership through intimidation, not that the "cunning" slytherins
appear to be much of a challenge. 


Other various notes:
Draco's a teenage boy, and from my observations, likely a rebellious
one. Whether his father keeps him in total domination or not, he's
going to have some urges to rebel against the control he appears to
have over him, and the disrespect his father shows him. (see:
Knockturn Alley) I don't feel that teen angst would play a
particularly major role, however.

I've seen more fanfiction which convincingly shows the light
underbelly of Draco than fanfiction which convincingly shows the
transition of Ginny from Giggling Pre-Teen to Harry's Mature
Girlfriend. <cough, cough, shameless plug of Heidi's "Surfeit of
Curses" in hopes of seeing the next chapter soon> I think that that
says something about the canon leading some people to have clear
hypothesises about Draco's hidden good side; enough to write
fanfiction about it. Subtext in canon, or wishful thinking, I can say
not. Most Ginny-fics seem to skip straight to "Ginny is now a
successful businesswoman" or "Ginny has come back from France a
changed woman." I'm not saying it's impossible (or that, for example,
Penny and Carole had much choice), but I'd like to see someone WRITE
the transition itself. If anyone does, actually, know of a convincing
Ginny-Coming-Into-Her-Own story, I'd love a recommendation. 

My appologies for rambling slightly, and any repetition I may have
made of old conversations. I just get this feeling that there's
something more to the kid. And besides, bad boys have more fun. <g>

- Teek

(Slogan for the SS Leather Troussers, which I think for all canon
purposes, is a ghost ship: "Only the Good Die Young." Think that's
cruel enough for mudbloods and muggles Draco?)

__________________________________________________
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a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Feb  3 05:12:52 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 23:12:52 -0600
Subject: SHIP: RE: Same Ship, Different Day
References: <200102022357.f12NvsC16950@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <3A7B9354.C0C8A090@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11594

Hi --

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> As to the Sirius bit, did I miss something?  (I'm not being sarcastic
> here, I'm honestly wondering.)  I don't recall anyone criticizing
> Sirius any more than Ron, in fact the recent thread has mostly been
> comparing the two.

He's been criticized some for the werewolf prank -- that's what I was
thinking of.  And, it's not that I don't think that criticism is without
merit.  He may well have been cruel or reckless or both.  I contend we
don't know what his motivation was.  But, in any case, my basic point is
that I have the perception that everyone thinks it's fine to criticize
most any character, except Ron.  Ron seems to be "off-limits" in the
minds of some people.  I just find that odd -- that's all.

> From GoF, UK ed, p. 277: "Hermione was furious with the pair of them;
> she went from one to the other, trying to force them to talk to each
> other. . ."  To me, this indicates that she didn't give up.  True, she
> clearly spent most of her time with Harry, but I maintain that that
> was because Ron monopolized all of Harry's other friends and she
> wasn't about to abandon Harry.

Good point.  I still don't know *when* she did this going back & forth
business, but you have a point.  <g>

> I don't think anyone has ever said that you weren't entitled to
> your opinions.  I think the message was more intended to be "Keep your
>
> opinions, just don't bash mine."

Isn't the number one R/H Daily Affirmation: "Harry and Hermione is a
RIDICULOUS IMPOSSIBILITY."  Is this *not* bashing my opinion?  It's not
wildly important mind you -- just a question.  It also sounds more like
"Keep your opinions but don't express them." (freedom of speech & all
that but we'll kick you off if you bash a Weasley).

> Penny said:
> > There's definitely a middle-ground, and that's where I
> >fall.  I don't think it qualifies as "Weasley-bashing" to consider
> the
> >theoretical possibility that Ron's jealous insecurity & obvious
> desire
> >for wealth and recognition might make him a very vulnerable target
> for
> >Voldemort & the dark side.  But, anything short of "Ron would *never*
>
> >betray his friend Harry, not under *any* circumstances" seems to be
> >labelled as "Weasley-bashing."
>
> OK, this comment drove me up the wall, because I, the Captain of the
> R/H, have participated in several discussions on this topic and even
> posted a message just a few days ago explaining why I once thought
> this theory a possibility but no longer do.  This is a topic that has
> been discussed at SugarQuill.  So I really think it's an unfair
> statement.

The above quote wasn't addressed just to you, Kathy.  No need to take it
personally!  <g>  You're the Captain & all, but there are lots of other
R/H shipmates who do seem to regard it as slander if one even admits
that there's a possibility that Ron could unwittingly betray Harry
(never mind what they would think about the possibility for an
intentional betrayal).

> (I might also point out that's there's a heck of a lot more canon
> evidence that could be interpreted as Hermione-likes-Ron than there is
> for Harry-likes-Hermione, regardless of how you choose to interpret
> it.)

I disagree.  Surprise, surprise.  :--)  Is there a count going on that I
hadn't heard about?

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb  3 05:20:28 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 05:20:28 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Details of subject prefixes...(SHIP, FF, etc)
Message-ID: <023101c08da1$06c070a0$2b3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11595

Hi everyone,

It's great to see so many people using the new subject prefixes.  It warms the cockles of my heart to know that our ADMIN messages aren't ignored.  I'd give you all a hug, but my arms can't stretch round 800+ people...

[From the audience: "Geddon with it!!!!"]

Okay.  For the newbies and, as a reminder to those who missed our previous announcements on this, we are now using the following prefixes:

SHIP: For shipping posts - anything on 'relationshipping' between the HP characters. 

FF: For fanfic posts - anything relating to HP fanfiction, including plugs.

OT: 'Off Topic':  Obviously, this one isn't specific to this group.  Threads often veer from HP discussions into OT territory, so it's important to indicate this.  It's also worth considering taking your discussion off-list if there are only a few of you involved.  Watch this space for more info on OT discussions...

ADMIN: This one is for Moderator messages.  Please read and heed these.  They will appear through every crevice, crack and orifice, so it's no use humming 'Tiptoe Through The Tulips' to try to block them out.  They will reach you, even at: "A Listmember, The Chair, In-Front-of-the-Computer-on-the-Table, The Room".  Of course, if you skipped *this* message, you won't have read this.  My cunning plan is foiled!  

**[HEADLIGHTS FLASHING] IMPORTANT**

It would be helpful we could all use the same style for these prefixes (as above, in caps, before the message title).  This helps enormously if you are someone on 'individual e-mail' setting who wants to (a) sort messages into groups, (b) extract messages into different folders (as some e-mail software allows).

Thanks gang!

Neil
The, er, "Mod Squad" 

_____________________________________
Flying-Ford-Anglia

"My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms but 
one month into your fabulous Kwikspell course 
I succeeded in turning her into a yak!  
- Thank you Kwikspell!"

[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 06:16:12 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 06:16:12 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron and the various ships
In-Reply-To: <3A796198.119A0297@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95g7nc+sak6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11596

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
>I still think that Hermione spent virtually all her time with Harry 
>during this fight --
> after the initial mediation attempts failed -- I can't imagine when 
>she might have had any chance to be with Ron otherwise given that 
>she was with Harry at meal-times, in between classes, during 
>classes, etc.  <snip longer bits>

I agree with this.  I think Hermione spent more time with Harry 
during the fight.  She knew he was pretty much alone without her, and 
she knew he'd done nothing wrong.  Hermione is a fair person, 
and is very disturbed by injustice - that's one of the few places 
where I can identify fully with her.  As some have mentioned, Ron 
wasn't isolated, he had other people, so it makes sense that she'd 
spend more time with Harry.  She clearly cared about how both of them 
were feeling.  If she hadn't, she wouldn't have bothered to try to 
bring them back together, and she wouldn't have been able to explain 
to Harry so clearly what Ron was feeling.  She knows how important 
they are to each other, and that their teenage boy pride was holding 
them back.

 But,
> whatever she said, I think she said it early-on ... as the fight 
wore
> on, she spent her time with Harry.  

I don't think she avoided Ron.  She's a persistant person, and I 
think she kept trying to get him to come around as well.  There are 
lots of classes, breaks, meals and days that are left out of the 
book, and there were also times when Harry was off dealing with the 
tournament.  I believe Hermione sought out Ron when she had the 
chance.  Both boys were stubborn, and it took awhile, but I know she 
was invested in them making up, by her reaction when they finally did.

Neither Ron nor Harry cared too much
> about the other persons' feelings IMO.  

I think both cared.  Harry made allusions to it himself, and Ron 
showed he did when he came downstairs to check on him in the common 
room.  I just don't think either could bring themselves to swallow 
their pride and allow themselves to see the other's point of view.

But, I still maintain that Ron's
> position is the more distasteful (IMHO anyway).

Of course Ron's position was more distasteful!  He was a world-class 
ninny about it :).  I don't know about anyone else, but I've always 
agreed that Ron was in the wrong.  He was blind and churlish and oh-
so-very adolescent.  But I personally remember teenage fights.  I 
remember being blind and churlish and adolescent myself, as my 
friends were also.  We, just like Harry and Ron, forgave each other 
and moved on.  I just don't quite understand the continued grudge 
against Ron for a mistake that he has been forgiven for.  If they're 
over it, then so am I.  Life's too short to hold a grudge.  

<snip>
There's a
> > middle ground between Weasley-bashing and utter Ron-worship, and 
I get
> > the feeling that even that middle ground wouldn't be tolerated. 
Again,
> > I've only visited Sugarquill once, and *extremely* briefly, so I
> > apologize if the impression I got from the site and the posts 
here was
> > the wrong one, but that was it.

I don't have any connection to Sugarquill, other than visiting the 
boards there every few days, but from what I've observed, you may 
well have gotten the wrong impression.  Then again maybe I'm the one 
that got the wrong impression - please, anyone who knows the details 
of Sugarquill, jump in if I'm way off-base.
I think their rules or whatever they are were meant in a joking way, 
but have been taken very seriously.  Last time I visited there was a 
thread about what will happen if Ron finds out that Harry gave the 
money from the tournament to Fred and George and paid for his new 
dress robes.  In that thread there was definitely some amused 
discussion about what an idiot Ron can be.  
But from what I can gather (and again, Sugarquill people, if I'm off-
base, correct me!) the people there are just trying to enjoy 
themselves and celebrate the characters they love.  It's no different 
from having a site for any other beloved fictional character or 
group, in that I'm guessing they assumed that people choosing to come 
there would be those who shared their enthusiasm, so the statments 
made were almost definitely jokes, rather than attempts to impose on 
anyone's first amendment rights ;).  I think it was more a tongue-in-
cheek way of warning people that if they're not Weasley fans they 
might not be interested.  At least that's the way I took it.


> 
> I don't think it qualifies as "Weasley-bashing" to consider the
> theoretical possibility that Ron's jealous insecurity & obvious 
desire
> for wealth and recognition might make him a very vulnerable target 
for
> Voldemort & the dark side.  But, anything short of "Ron would 
*never*
> betray his friend Harry, not under *any* circumstances" seems to be
> labelled as "Weasley-bashing."


I do consider this a possibility, in the deep dark secret part of my 
brain.  I don't believe it will happen, in part because it would be 
completely devastating to Harry, to Hermione, to Ron himself, to the 
whole Weasley family, etc., and I don't want to think JKR would go 
that far.  Plus it would devastate me also, so I'd rather not 
consider the possibility.  I think it would be worse for Harry et al 
than if she killed him off.
In all honestly I suspect there will be some temptation that Ron will 
have to endure.  It's just that I believe that he *will* endure it.  
I'd be surprised if there weren't a dark moment when he teeters on 
the brink - that's what we all have to go through to some extent if 
we're ever going to make the conscious decision that our lives are 
going to be about doing good.  I don't think he'll give in to 
temptation and betray them.  No matter what a git he can be 
sometimes, when push comes to shove, Ron has proven that he considers 
his own life small price to pay for his friends.  

Kimberly, 
Who has decided to catch up on some posts before she goes any further.




From shaanhp at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 06:41:12 2001
From: shaanhp at yahoo.com (shaanhp at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 06:41:12 -0000
Subject: Defending Sugar Quill Island
In-Reply-To: <95g7nc+sak6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95g968+h8ts@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11597

Hello again,

Just a quick delurk here. Kathy/Elanor thank you for the welcome (I 
just finished Chapter 12 of your wonderful fic and it was amazing as 
usual!). 

Kimberly wrote:
I think their (Sugar Quill's) rules or whatever they are were meant 
in a joking way.

As a regular inhabitant of SugarQuill Island I can say that yes they 
are meant only in fun!

Kimberly also wrote:
But from what I can gather (and again, Sugarquill people, if I'm off-
> base, correct me!) the people there are just trying to enjoy 
> themselves and celebrate the characters they love.  It's no 
different 
> from having a site for any other beloved fictional character or 
> group, in that I'm guessing they assumed that people choosing to 
come 
> there would be those who shared their enthusiasm, so the statments 
> made were almost definitely jokes, rather than attempts to impose 
on 
> anyone's first amendment rights ;).  I think it was more a tongue-
in-
> cheek way of warning people that if they're not Weasley fans they 
> might not be interested.  At least that's the way I took it.
> 

As a regular SugarQuiller, I can say with confidence, that's the way 
we SugarQuillers take it too! (I am sure that both Arabella and 
Zsenya will back me on this :-)

Firoza
*who will quietly go back to lurking but had to come out and defend 
her home :-)*
.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb  3 06:17:08 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 06:17:08 -0000
Subject: ADMIN/OT: Holocaust thing
References: <95fkiu+282e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <025a01c08da8$f136daa0$2b3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11598

Excerpts of various comments made:-

Amanda said:

"As I'm forever pointing out to people, please to remember that in
addition to the Jews, the Slavs and Gypsies were also exterminated. Just
as many Poles, Gypsies, and homosexuals died as did Jews. It wasn't just
a Jewish thing. It was a non-Aryan thing."

Pippin said (amongst other well-phrased things):

" The word Holocaust refers properly to a specific historic catastrophe
which was only a part of the general destructiveness of the Hitler
 regime. Whether it 'should' mean that...another question entirely and
 off topic for this list, although I would be glad to hear your views."

John:

"Forgive the OTness of this post. I've been studying the post-WWII fallout
last term and have some fairly strong opinions. If another of the Moderator
team (who, unlike me, would be impartial here) wants to step in and call a
halt to this thread, feel free."

***

I'm afraid I can't be impartial on this topic either: far from it.  Who on
earth could be impartial?  We are talking about the killing of millions of
innocent people; whether these be deaths in the Holocaust, as defined, or
senseless deaths in the broader sense.  IMO, anyone who claimed to be
impartial on such a topic would have seriously questionable values.

Obviously, this is an interesting thread, in the sense that there appear to
be parallels with WWII and Hitler's Nazi regime in the HP books (Voldemort,
Death Eaters, pure-blood etc).  However, partiality aside, the topic is
clearly emotive once it has drifted OT-ward, and, as Pippin suggests, some
aspects, outside the context of the HP books, should, perhaps, be continued
off-list.

Personally-speaking, I wouldn't say don't OT post on this topic [a bit late
for that..], but would suggest that we all accept the horrors of WWII as
read and continue to look at how JKR may be reflecting this in the story
she's telling.

Neil
Moderator Team
____________________________________
Flying-Ford-Anglia











From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 07:19:02 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 07:19:02 -0000
Subject: There's Something Special About Harry...
In-Reply-To: <95djjt+7a3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95gbd6+t89n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11599

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:

> 
> Harry being special/having special powers and Harry being the 
> Destined One Meant To Save The World are not necessarily the same 
> thing. 
> 
> I'd agree that he is  most likely not a special kind of wizard, 
> though as for amazing  abilities no other (living) wizard has, JKR 
> has *already* given him  some of those: Parseltongue, prophetic 
> dreams, the ability to resist the Imperius Curse, etc. 

I don't think we have any evidence that these are powers that no 
other living wizard has.  Clearly parsletongue is rare, but it 
doesn't follow that Harry's the only living person with that gift.  
In fact, there are pobably many who would never admit to it if they 
were parslemouths, because of the dark arts connotation that goes 
with it.  And even animagi, who are supposed to be registered, are 
far more common than people thing.  As for prophetic dreams, there 
are real-life muggles who have those with some regularity, so I 
wouldn't venture to say no living wizard has them.  The ability to 
resist Imperio does seem also to be rare, but I would venture a bet 
that Dumbledore could do it, and probably a few others as well.  If 
not, V and his henchmen could just Imperio people into doing their 
bidding all the time.  


> Even if it did turn out that Harry possesses extraordinary  
> powers that are not common to the wizarding population at large 
> (outside of the ones he already has), that in no way diminishes his 
> essential humanity or contravenes the message that "It is our
> choices that make  us what we are, far more than our abilities." 


True enough, but what about the second - that it will only take 
someone else willing to fight what seems like a loosing battle?  That 
part would be completely untrue.  

<snip>

> 
> There is a middle ground between "Harry is completely normal and 
> possesses no special abilities that everyone else in his year at 
> Hogwarts does not possess in equal measure" and "Harry is Batman." 
> That's where I stand. (Although he would look lovely in the Batman 
> suit.)

Well then wonder of wonders, my dear, we're sharing ground! :D

I've never tried to say that Harry doesn't have any abilities that 
his classmates do not also possess.  I'm pretty sure I've said he's 
talented, and could be as strong a wizard as Dumbledore or 
Voldemort.  I just don't buy that he's beyond them all.  If he's so 
much stronger than every other wizard that he's going to 
singlehandedly defeat evil once and for all with his super-powers, 
well, where would be the sport in that?  If he's so strong that 
Voldemort doesn't stand a chance then the tension all kinda goes out 
of it.  That's pretty much all I meant to say.  So I guess we're not 
really disagreeing that much.  Well, except for the Harry in the 
Batman suit thing.  For some reason I keep picturing the footy pajama 
kind, which, while adorable, would look kinda silly on a teenage boy!

Kimberly




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb  3 06:53:44 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 06:53:44 -0000
Subject: OT: Rock #47 (on-topic addendum) 
References: <B69B5E95.AE6C%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <000f01c08dae$0d757000$2d3770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11600

A while back, John was explaining the origin of his sigline, "Moderator with
Rock #47," as follows:

> Ah, it's a reference to cameos in literature, specifically fanfiction.
> Essentially, there's a long-running joke in online fandom that, when you
> give a friend a cameo, you make them "Background Character with Rock" --
in
> Star Trek, it would be "Furry Monster With Rock". Star Wars would be
> "StormTrooper With Rock". Buffy would be "Vampire/Demon With Rock" HP
could
> be "Gryffindor With Rock". I believe it started in Trek fandom, but I
> couldn't for the life of me point you to any particular story.
>
> From then on, the degree of friendship you have depends on the higher
number
> after the Rock. "47" is the theoretical maximum, so your best online Trek
> friend would be "Furry Monster With Rock #47".

On the very first page of PoA, when Harry is doing his homework on witch
burnings by torchlight, and consulting 'A History of Magic,' he reads that
witches and wizards weren't affected by the flames, because they simply
performed "a basic Flame-Freezing Charm" and pretended to be in pain:-

"...Indeed, Wendelin the Weird enjoyed being burnt so much that she allowed
herself to be caught no fewer than forty-seven times in various disguises."

Interesting?

Neil
_____________________________________
Flying-Ford-Anglia

"My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms but
one month into your fabulous Kwikspell course
I succeeded in turning her into a yak!
- Thank you Kwikspell!"

[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]







From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Sat Feb  3 08:33:57 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 03:33:57 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death of the Little Princes (R-3 OT)
Message-ID: <59.66085f6.27ad1c75@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11601

Richard the 3rd, the Little Princes, Ed IV's Love Life and Buckingham are all 
very *on* topic and among the many interesting subjects of conversation on 
the later-medieval-britain list, which may be found at the following website:

http://www.medievalbritain.co.uk/

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb  3 08:48:48 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 08:48:48 -0000
Subject: Opening the Chamber of Secrets (on Lockhart)
In-Reply-To: <00f901c08b27$7e805960$c03770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <95gglg+j7it@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11602

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> IMO, Gilderoy Lockhart is one of the most singularly unpleasant 
characters JKR has written and, perhaps, one of the reasons this book 
comes up a little short of the others.  He is so completely self-
obsessed, that it becomes stifling, in spite of the humour.  Of 
course, he is a caricature, but he represents a kind of shallow, 
delusional vanity that is all too common in our convenience-driven 
world.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  
 
Hmm, interesting.  I know I'm in the minority with this, but I loved 
Lockhart.  Personally, I don't know anyone in life who is as shallow 
or narcissistic as he is, so to me he is pure fiction.  I found him 
to be an hilarious bozo, nothing more.  I realise there are many who 
have his vanity and shallowness, though I don't know them.  Skeeter 
is a character I hate, perhaps because I've had experience with 
people who twist my words and tell the world my business.  PoA is 
unboubtedly my favorite, with GoF and CoS tied for next, almost tied 
three ways with PS/SS.  Maybe my favorite HP is whichever one I 
happen to be reading...

>Neil:
> I love the scene in the staffroom when all the other teachers gang 
up on Lockhart.  It's a very revealing interaction and it's one of 
those moments that makes you want to cheer, despite the fact that 
Gilderoy was, predictably, heading for a fall.  Not satisfied with 
that scene, JKR then allows Harry and Ron the pleasure of humiliating 
the wretch, before he snatches Ron's wand and wipes out his ego and 
his personality.  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Despite my love for the GL character, I loved this too.  Both scenes 
seemed the perfect fate for Lockhart.  As for Skeeter, I would've 
liked to have seen her squashed beneath Hermione's heel, but, of 
course, JKR wouldn't do that, would she?  I was hoping for a worse 
fate for her, though; maybe next book.

Kelley
"Am I a professor?" said Lockhart in mild surprise.  "Goodness.  I 
expect I was hopeless, was I?"            ------CoS





From nykteris at polbox.com  Sat Feb  3 09:11:45 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:11:45 +0100
Subject: veritaserum 
Message-ID: <000b01c08dc1$93738580$8b604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 11603

Hi! 

I was thinking about wizards' trials and I don't understand one thing. If they have veritaserum why don't they use it in court? It would be much easier to state whether somebody is a Death Eater or not. The same in Black's case in PoA. 

Katarzyna 

PS Of course maybe our genius Snape is the only person who knows how to prepare the elixir...   


    
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Feb  3 10:53:32 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 11:53:32 +0100
Subject: SHIP/FF: Ron's coloring, slash
References: <95fnnf+a50v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7BE32C.1530BD32@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 11604

> Firebolt wrote: (in reference to "Harry is Batman.")
> But Cassie, the problem with that is that Robin would then be taller
> than Batman - and don't you think the red, green, yellow and black
> would clash horribly with Ron's hair? <vbg>
>
> *shudders at the idea of Ron in yellow and green* Now, shoving poor
> Ron into a Robin suit, IMHO, definitely qualifies as Weasley-bashing.
> Thank you, Firebolt -- you have just inspired a new chapter of Draco
> Dexter. :P

Oh, this I'll have to see <g>...btw, you wouldn't mind if I tried to draw this, wouldja?

<Harry and Draco get together, because it is pretty and sparkly and I
like it.  Ron gets together with maybe the Irish kid, on account of
they're both sports freaks.  I'd say Neville, but that's a little scary
for even a member of the Evil Sinker/Destroyer Who Cares? It's Pretty.>

Dean is the sports freak, not Seamus, and Dean and Seamus belong together anyway.

<Harry: *sincerely* You're scary.
Meg: I just woke up.
Harry: That's even scarier.
Meg: Would you like to hear about the Snape/Your Father thing?
Harry: O_O;;;;;>

How about just waiting for Harry to grow up? I mean, Hermione gets paired with Remus, Sirius, and Snape, so why not Harry?

<Let's see... I'm not a slash expert by any means.  The one slashy pairing I
do like if it's well-written is Harry/Ron.  Rhysenn wrote a Harry/Ron fic
that I absolutely adored... although she usually writes Harry/Draco.>

CobraGirl wrote 'The Sound of Silence', which was very sweet. Also Harry/Ron.

- Firebolt




From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Sat Feb  3 11:14:20 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 11:14:20 -0000
Subject: Good H/G story?
Message-ID: <95gp6c+f9pf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11605

H/G is not a popular 'ship. Lots of people have said they cannot read 
it, they hate One Big Happy Weasley Family fics, etc. Well, maybe 
this will change a few minds.

http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/?action=story-read&storyid=121723

(Cut and paste if not all in one line)

I thought this story was very good. It portrays Ginny as a strong 
character, which is a primary ingredient of good H/G fiction.

Keith




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Sat Feb  3 12:11:00 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 12:11:00 -0000
Subject: veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <000b01c08dc1$93738580$8b604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <95gsgk+5iup@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11606

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "nykteris" <nykteris at p...> wrote:
> I was thinking about wizards' trials and I don't understand one 
thing. If they have veritaserum why don't they use it in court? It 
would be much easier to state whether somebody is a Death Eater or 
not. The same in Black's case in PoA. 

Oh good god. We had a big old discussion on exactly this over on PoU 
a while back, you may want to drift on over and have a search. The 
conclusions we came to (from what I remember) were that Veritaserum 
is probably not admissable in court because it is not 100% infallible 
(like the american Polygraph system), it would depend on how the 
witness percieved events as to what answers they gave and if they 
were confused for some reason, they could give a totally wrong answer 
while believing it to be correct. There were other factors involved 
like the violation of ones civil liberties etc., but the result is 
that there are too many problems with veritaserum for it to be used.



Dai




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 14:20:31 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:20:31 -0000
Subject: This Ship stuff sounds like shojo
Message-ID: <95h43f+3qk7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11607

I'm curious about the slash pairings we talk about here -- Ron/Harry, 
Harry/Draco (!) and so on.

A lot of the ship discussion here is sounding more and more like a 
Japanese phenomenon, "shojo": Anime and manga targeted to young girls 
and women with strong themes of relationships and friendship. A 
frequent theme of this style are close -- very close -- and sexually 
ambiguous relationships between androgynous male characters, called 
"bishonen", the sense being "beautiful boys." [Most fic Dracos would 
be classic bishonen] An example: if anybody here is familiar with the 
first "Sailor Moon" series, which is shojo, there's two bad-guy 
characters, Jedite and Malachite. Here in the US, Malachite is female, 
but in Japan, both characters are male.  One of them even has 
Draco-silvery hair!

What's the dynamic for this?




From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Sat Feb  3 14:29:15 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:29:15 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Clearing SugarQuill's name
Message-ID: <95h4jr+btdb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11608

As co-headmistress of SugarQuill, I'd like to jump in and say a few 
things, and respectfully ask that the whole conversation tone down a 
bit.   It's all starting to feel very "ha ha I'm just joking you're 
just joking" in a sort of evil undertone way.
 
Kimberly was entirely correct in what she wrote below:
------
I don't have any connection to Sugarquill, other than visiting the 
boards there every few days, but from what I've observed, you may 
well have gotten the wrong impression.  Then again maybe I'm the one 
that got the wrong impression - please, anyone who knows the details 
of Sugarquill, jump in if I'm way off-base.I think their rules or 
whatever they are were meant in a joking way, but have been taken 
very seriously.  Last time I visited there was a thread about what 
will happen if Ron finds out that Harry gave the money from the 
tournament to Fred and George and paid for his new dress robes.  In 
that thread there was definitely some amused discussion about what an 
idiot Ron can be.  But from what I can gather (and again, Sugarquill 
people, if I'm off-base, correct me!) the people there are just 
trying to enjoy themselves and celebrate the characters they love.  
It's no different 
from having a site for any other beloved fictional character or 
group, in that I'm guessing they assumed that people choosing to come 
there would be those who shared their enthusiasm, so the statments 
made were almost definitely jokes, rather than attempts to impose on 
anyone's first amendment rights ;).  I think it was more a tongue-in-
cheek way of warning people that if they're not Weasley fans they 
might not be interested.  At least that's the way I took it.
-------------------
Zsenya back again - the original motivation for SugarQuill was 
threefold.  First and foremost, it is a website for writers.   
Arabella and I love to write and we remember fondly our own high 
school days when we spent a good portion of class time writing notes 
to friends about how Duran Duran members were going to leave their 
model wives for us, etc.  We enjoyed a lot of the stories on ff.net 
but were a little jarred by good ideas marred by spelling and 
grammatical errors.  We wanted to create a sort of beta-reading site 
where people of all ages could submit their stories and we would help 
edit them.  We've found this to be extremely useful in our own 
writing and wanted to encourage others so that, unlike us, they might 
continue writing throughout their lives and not suddenly rediscover 
it in their 20s like we have.  Fan Fiction is a great way to 
springboard into writing original stories, and we post those as 
well.  We both started of writing Jane Austen fan fiction, but felt 
that a website with a Harry Potter base might appeal to younger 
people.
 
This part of the site has worked beautifully. We've had over 30 
submissions from people  - the average age is 14 (we've been up and 
running one month) and most seem generally happy for the advice.  The 
second motivation for SugarQuill was to have a place to archive our 
own fics and those that we enjoyed reading, as well as to showcase 
people who had submitted their fiction. We believe that no matter who 
you are, you probably want people to read what you've written and we 
wanted to give people that feeling of being "published."  Now, the 
third part of the site, the whole "Daily Affirmations" and SPEW page 
was sort of added on at the end.  We decided, hey, we'd like to have 
discussion groups too, and you know, we're the ones paying 
$14.95/month to Yahoo to host our site, so let's try to set a sort 
of "tone" or mission for this web site. We like to read stories about 
Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny.  We've read PoU, and Draco 
Dormiens, and others, and we think they're great (there're even one 
or two Sirius/Lupin SLASH stories that I love), but at this point 
we'd already developed all of the characters in our minds and we 
wanted to make a way to sort of "specialize" the site.  There are 
hundreds of Harry Potter fan sites out there.  We didn't find any 
that were devoted to Ron so we decided to make that our priority, as 
he is our favorite character, even though he can be a git sometimes.  
They all can. They're 14 at this point.
 
Our discussion boards are open to anyone on any Harry Potter related 
topic, but we actually have several boards, and our "Parseltongue" 
(general discussion of anything) and "Pensieve" (reviews and story 
discussion) boards are actually as heavily trafficked 
as "Veritaserum" which is the Harry Potter one.  We actually took off 
the Daily Affirmations for a while, as we thought they were a bit 
silly, but a few people asked where they went, so we put them back 
up, as a part of SugarQuill history.
 
We *are* working on what we call "W.A.I.L" (thanks to Winky and Dobby 
at ff.net) - the Weasley Adoration and Idolatry League - where we are 
going to highlight each member of the Weasley family with quotes, 
pics, stories, discussion etc.  Since we are all very busy, this is 
going to take quite a lot of time to accomplish, but people at 
SugarQuill know we are working on it.  There are plenty of sites out 
there worshipping (that's a bit of a strong word I suppose) Harry, 
and we love him too. But we admire the spunk and character of the 
Weasley clan as much as Harry does, and maybe we're all just wishing 
we came from large families of red-heads, but we thought this was a 
good way to make our site unique.  We don't love them 
unconditionally.  We're mad at Molly for snubbing Hermione in Book IV 
(and yes, we believe it was on Harry's behalf), we are very, very 
worried that Percy will choose the Ministry over his family, and, as 
Kimberley mentioned, we can't see how Ron is NOT going to figure out 
where Gred and Forge got their money and get upset about it.  We hope 
beyond hope that JKR will flesh out Ginny in future books and make 
her as wonderful as we have in our fan fiction.  It all makes for 
interesting discussion.
 
Phew, this was long.  I just wanted to point out that SugarQuill is 
not the "anti-HP4GU web site" or the "We love Ron unconditionally" 
website.  It's just a very exciting and fun project that two friends 
started two months ago and are very happy about.
 
Zsenya




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 14:44:30 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:44:30 -0000
Subject: This Ship stuff sounds like shojo (semi-OT)
In-Reply-To: <95h43f+3qk7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95h5ge+b3sp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11609

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> I'm curious about the slash pairings we talk about here -- 
Ron/Harry, 
> Harry/Draco (!) and so on.

Hmmm. I'm not a slash fan myself, but I'm an anime fan as well as a 
HP fan, so I'll try to help you answer these questions. In Japan, 
slash is known as "yaoi" or "shounen-ai" (literally boy-love). This 
can take the form of same-sex relationships in the canon of shoujo 
(literally girl, vs. "shounen" or boy anime/manga) manga/anime, or as 
doujinshi (fanproduced comics) depicting non-canon shounen-ai 
relationships between characters. (The companies, for some reason, 
allow this copyright violation). There are, as they come out of 
different cultures with different takes on sexuality, some 
differences between yaoi and slash, but it's confusing. Some yaoi has 
lots of emotional exploration or angst, other yaoi is plot-what-plot 
sex. Most Western fans like the emotional aspects of it, though, 
IMHO. 


> A lot of the ship discussion here is sounding more and more like a 
> Japanese phenomenon, "shojo": Anime and manga targeted to young 
girls 
> and women with strong themes of relationships and friendship. A 
> frequent theme of this style are close -- very close -- and 
sexually 
> ambiguous relationships between androgynous male characters, called 
> "bishonen", the sense being "beautiful boys." [Most fic Dracos 
would 
> be classic bishonen] An example: if anybody here is familiar with 
the 
> first "Sailor Moon" series, which is shojo, there's two bad-guy 
> characters, Jedite and Malachite. Here in the US, Malachite is 
female, 
> but in Japan, both characters are male.  One of them even has 
> Draco-silvery hair!
> 
> What's the dynamic for this?

There's actually lots of variety in shounen-ai relationships in 
shoujo. But for a good runthrough of how the yaoi fans themselves 
explain what they feel it to be about, go to this site:  
www.aestheticism.com. (WARNING:  includes discussions of same-sex 
relationships; includes "slash" archive of anime fanfiction) I think 
you'll find some stuff that helps under "glossary."

Another site that may be interesting is this:  Matt Thorn's shoujo 
manga site at http://www.ky.xaxon.ne.jp/~matt/. He is a cultural 
anthropologist living in Japan and studying manga/anime. Look under 
essays to see some stuff about the phenomenon. 

Charmian
(Just trying to be helpful....)




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Feb  3 15:26:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 09:26:43 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Clearing SugarQuill's name
References: <95h4jr+btdb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7C2333.2144423C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11610

Hi everyone --

Okay, I feel the need to step in here -- I do not care at all what
happens over at SugarQuill.  It sounds like a wonderful idea -- really!
It has no connection to this group, so of course it goes without saying
that your Daily Affirmations and whatever else is discussed/enforced on
that site is completely up to the site owners.

It seemed to me that Kathy was adopting the SugarQuill Daily
Affirmations on the Good Ship R/H, which does sail waters near & around
HPforGrownups from time to time.  <g>  I only meant to point out that in
the interests of "Inter-ship cooperation" *on this group,* these Daily
Affirmations seemed a bit unwelcoming.  That's *all* I ever intended to
say -- I think it's gotten way misunderstood at some point along the way
(as these subjects are wont to do).

But, it would naturally be very silly and inappropriate for me or anyone
on this group to suggest what the folks over at SugarQuill can & can't
discuss!  Goodness!  *That* would be an infringement of free speech
rights for certain.

I think your goals for the site sound wonderful Zsenya (the writing
workshop/beta reading, encouraging younger fanfic writers, etc.).

I did actually visit the site last night out of curiosity, and this all
looked very interesting.  Of course, it goes without saying that I would
not be a welcome poster on your group, so I doubt I'd ever visit again.
<vbg>  But, for those with a Weasley fascination and/or inclined to
support the R/H, H/G ships, it's a GREAT site!

Again -- my comments about the Daily Affirmations were intended merely
to note that *if* these Daily Affirmations were being adopted in
connection with this group, it would be rather unwelcoming.  Kathy & I
have both been trying to encourage the "Shipping" debates on this group
to take a more light-hearted approach.  So, I was attempting to jokingly
point out that having "Rules/Regs" aboard the Good Ship R/H was a bit
off-putting to the goals of light-hearted in tone shipping debates &
inter-ship cooperation.

I hope this will clear things up a bit!

Penny






From bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr  Sat Feb  3 16:07:05 2001
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr (bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:07:05 -0000
Subject: Can we believe in Dumbledore?
Message-ID: <95hab9+20fh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11611

I've been having some doubts recently about Dumbledore, and I wondered 
what you all feel about this:

It's just that I don't believe that Dumbledore is an entirely credible 
character.
Are we to believe that he is the father, the son and the holy ghost 
all rolled up into one benevolent grandfather figure dispensing 
incessant pearls of wisdom to who so ever is willing to listen?

Let me put it to you that if Dumbledore had a bit more depth to his 
character and was seen to exercise just a little choice about being 
good and moral, he'd be that much more believable.
What about if he were involved in allegations about sharing an 
improper cigar with one of his interns? Or if he were accused of 
harbouring an excessive fondness for the young boys in his care? Or if 
some unexplained bank movements were discovered in his account from a 
muggle bank in an offshore tax haven. Of course, he'd shake off all 
the accusations and come out of it entirely vindicated, but never the 
less, that would have left us with just a trace of a thought that he 
might just have been capable of doing those things but chose not to.

Wouldn't that make him more believable? 
Don't you think that only a credible Dumbledore who has weaknesses and 
overcomes them would be capable of helping Harry to become street 
wise? 
Because Harry's going to have to develop into a pretty shrewd 
character to bring about the final downfall of Voledemort and his 
cronies, and believing in a Dumbledore-Father Christmas just isn't 
going to help him.

Bob





From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Sat Feb  3 16:43:59 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:43:59 -0000
Subject: Can we believe in Dumbledore?
In-Reply-To: <95hab9+20fh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95hcgf+3cn5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11612

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bob.mornington at w... wrote:
> I've been having some doubts recently about Dumbledore, and I 
wondered 
> what you all feel about this:
> 
> It's just that I don't believe that Dumbledore is an entirely 
credible 
> character.
> Are we to believe that he is the father, the son and the holy ghost 
> all rolled up into one benevolent grandfather figure dispensing 
> incessant pearls of wisdom to who so ever is willing to listen?
> 
> Let me put it to you that if Dumbledore had a bit more depth to his 
> character and was seen to exercise just a little choice about being 
> good and moral, he'd be that much more believable.
> What about if he were involved in allegations about sharing an 
> improper cigar with one of his interns? Or if he were accused of 
> harbouring an excessive fondness for the young boys in his care? Or 
if 
> some unexplained bank movements were discovered in his account from 
a 
> muggle bank in an offshore tax haven. Of course, he'd shake off all 
> the accusations and come out of it entirely vindicated, but never 
the 
> less, that would have left us with just a trace of a thought that 
he 
> might just have been capable of doing those things but chose not to.
> 
> Wouldn't that make him more believable? 
> Don't you think that only a credible Dumbledore who has weaknesses 
and 
> overcomes them would be capable of helping Harry to become street 
> wise? 
> Because Harry's going to have to develop into a pretty shrewd 
> character to bring about the final downfall of Voledemort and his 
> cronies, and believing in a Dumbledore-Father Christmas just isn't 
> going to help him.
> 
> Bob

That's a very valid point, however we have seen (in GoF) that Harry 
can survive without Dumbeldore's help, though he did get it in books 
1 and 2 and Dumbledore suggested the use of the Time-Turner in bk 3.

Remember that Harry Potter is very much a mythic archetypes story at 
heart, rather like Star Wars in that respect. Dumbledore is a kind of 
Obi-Wan Kenobi figure. We may see Harry become more independent in 
later books, and also we may find out more about Dumbledore's past.

Keith




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Feb  3 17:17:59 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 11:17:59 -0600
Subject: SHIP: H/H & other thoughts
References: <95dhvu+u6h3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7C3D47.635ED4A5@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11613

Hi --

Kelley wrote:

> I do believe R/H will be a more entertaining pairing in canon.  I love
> Harry, but he really does seem a bit uninteresting to me.  Ron and
> Herm have far more vivid personalities.  Does it seem to you (and any
> other H/H-ers) that R & He have no interaction beyond bickering?  I
> mean that in an absolutely non-inflammatory way, this is genuine
> curiosity.
>
>> Can you give some idea of what spark there might be in an H/H pairing?  All I
>> can picture is Herm helping Harry fight against Vold, just as it's
>> been going.  I just can't see any romantic chemistry, so far in
>> canon, and even when trying to imagine it in a future sense.  Just
>> doesn't seem very conducive for any real passion.
>>
> Okay, but we're already getting this from Harry and Hermione.  He's
> already saving the world with help from Herm (and others as well, of
> course).  If you take away this plotline, what is there for them?  If
> they weren't fighting Vold, what would be happening with them?
>
I think other people have asked the same basic question: what "spark" is
there between H & H in the canon that would support a future pairing?
The intimation seems to be that they are "boring" together & not very
entertaining.

I think again, it really boils down to how one views relationships in
"real life."  I'm not sure anyone who knows us would look at my husband
and me and say, "Wow!  They've really got a *spark* in their
relationship."  I do think, though, that people who know us would look
at us and say, "They are so happy.  They've got a good solid
relationship and are obviously meant to be."

Point being: I'm not convinced that the only road to romantic happiness
& compatibility (and yes, passion) requires fireworks and sparks.  In
fact, the fireworks and sparks thing just wouldn't have suited *my*
personality at all.  <g>  My husband and I were good friends for quite
awhile before our relationship turned to romance.  It just evolved into
the romantic aspect.  It was probably always there under the surface,
but we just didn't act on it for awhile.  That's how I can see H/H.
They have a solid friendship, common interests and lots of other great
things, even if there's no classic "spark" in the tradition of romantic
comedies.  I guess my perception is that some of you believe that
sparks/bickering/tension = passion.  My take on it is that you can have
*lots* of passion, even without the sparks & fireworks.  <vbg>

I don't imagine R/H *always* bickering.  But, they bicker & spat back &
forth more than I would care to.  It is admittedly the "defining"
characteristic of their relationship in my mind.  I don't necessarily
see them having loads of "fun," like some of the R/H types see.  They
seem to me to disagree fairly often.  For example -- the giants and the
house elves.  Ron has a typical "grew up in the wizarding world" view of
house elves & the giants.  Hermione has a totally different
perspective.  It just seems like there are so many issues of this nature
that would make their pairing hard to sustain over the long haul.

I like romantic comedies, but I don't see them as particularly
realistic.  I just don't honestly know that many people who fall into
that category.  They are funny and entertaining .... but in my mind,
they are barely distinguishable from fantasy.

Anyway .... that's just my take on it.  I really do think it's just a
matter of how each individual approaches romantic relationships in their
own life -- it colors your perception of what would make the characters
most happy.  So many of us on both sides of the fence identify with
Hermione, but we just disagree about what the right "type" of romantic
relationship is best for her.

As for imagining how they might be in a future pairing, I don't know if
you're one of those who avoids fanfic at all costs, but give PoU a try.
I know several people have said that they liked PoU but still didn't
"believe" in the H/H pairing.  That's fair -- but personally, PoU is
exactly what I imagine a future H/H pairing could be like.  But, to each
his own.  <g>  If you *haven't* read it and are interested in seeing
what a future H/H pairing might look like, I recommend it.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 17:45:20 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 17:45:20 -0000
Subject: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <B6A0FA77.B308%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <95hg3g+115q0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11614

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> >> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> >> 
> >>> As I'm forever pointing out to people, please to remember that 
in
> >>> addition to the Jews, the Slavs and Gypsies were also 
exterminated. Just
> >>> as many Poles, Gypsies, and homosexuals died as did Jews. It 
wasn't just
> >>> a Jewish thing. It was a non-Aryan thing.
> >> 
> >> Don't forget the 20 million Russian civilians who were killed on 
the Eastern
> >> Front by the advancing Armies of the Third Reich. Oh, and the 
tens of
> >> thousands of Southeast Asian people massacred by the Japanese.
> >> 
> >> --John
> > They should never be forgotten, but they were not Holocaust
> > victims.
> > The term Holocaust refers to those destroyed in the Endlosung, 
the
> > "Final Solution', not Axis victims in general.
> 
> ::takes a deep breath and counts to ten::
> 
> Pippin, I'm sure that you didn't mean it to come across as such, 
but that
> last message really made me angry in that it seemed to insinuate 
that the
> deaths of those who were not specifically singled out for genocide 
by Hitler
> on his insane Aryan crusade were "less important" than those not
> specifically targetted.
> 
> Remember, there were MORE "non-genocide" victims than those killed 
in the
> name of the Aryan "race". Three to four times as many, in fact. And 
what
> does the international community do to the perpetrators of THOSE 
crimes?
> Nurnburg? Nope. Trying them well into their eighth decade? Naw. 
Zip. Zilch.
> Nada.
> 

So, any old war is just as bad as genocide? Come on! War is a 
indeed a terrible thing. Moreover, besides being terrible in itself 
it is terrible in that it brings the worst in people. Atrocities 
happen. Civilians are needlessly killed. Cruelty and brutal 
indifference to human lives flourishes. BUT genocide is the attempt 
to SYSTEMATICALLY annihilate a nation. In a war *armed* soldiers 
fight other *armed* soldiers. The atrocities that the civilian 
populations suffer are a by product, so to speak, of the *armed* 
conflict. It bears repeating that the Holocaust was the systematic 
massacre of defenceless civilians. 
Besides, to claim that event A (the war itself) is worse than event B 
(the Holocaust) because it caused more people to die is a fallacy, 
pure and simple. It completely takes out of the account the 
perpetrators. The reason the Holocaust is so unimaginably awful is 
not because millions have died in agony, it is because they were 
cold-bloodedly murdered by a state machinary, for no other reason 
than pure hate. *Thats* what makes it different from any other 
man-caused disaster.

Amanda, the point you make about the Holocaust being a non-Aryan 
thing is true, of course, but within this reservation: The Jews were 
viewed as the complete negative opposite of the Aryan race. They were 
the principle of darkness, the germ of all evil. They carried disease 
- both physical and spiritual. The hatred of Jews was virulent and 
fanatic in a special way.

Naama





From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Feb  3 18:10:07 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:10:07 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can we believe in Dumbledore?
In-Reply-To: <95hab9+20fh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEKPCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11615

I find Dumbledore very fallible and sometimes frighteningly ineffective.
The first time I really felt that way was the scene when he was consoling
the Weasleys on the loss of Ginny, all the while Harry and Ron were in the
Chamber of Secrets fighting Tom Riddle and rescuing Ginny.  If D is such a
great wizard, why didn't he know what was happening?  Or worse, DID he know,
and left Harry to deal with it because it was good training?  URF!  Four
lives could have been lost that day (Harry, Ron, Ginny, and Lockhart).  At
least D's phoenix (Fawkes) went to the rescue...

He fails to prevent Sirius Black from entering Hogwarts.  He nearly loses
Harry to the Dementors.  He provides Harry and the others with many
opportunities to make fatal mistakes... for example: giving an 11-year-old
boy an invisibility cloak, allowing detentions to be spent in the Forbidden
Forest at midnight, letting Harry and Hermione play with time in an effort
to rescue Buckbeak and Sirius, failing to prevent the Dementors from
entering Hogwarts on two occasions (once when they came to get Sirius, and
again when they came to get Barty Crouch Jr.)

He also fails to spot the impostor Moody during an entire school year, and
fails to prevent Voldemort from kidnapping Harry right out from under his
nose at the end of Goblet of Fire.  Again, a VERY fallible Dumbledore.
Perhaps he has been lulled into carelessness by the preceding decade of
peace.  Harry does notice that as the events are unfolding, following
Harry's return from Voldemort's clutches, Dumbledore's kindly demeanor
changes completely, and Harry sees for the first time, the Dumbledore that
frightens the members of the Dark Side.  About time, I say!

Perhaps Dumbledore's laissez-faire attitude toward Harry is necessary to the
plot -- Harry is developing his powers, and his self-reliance.  But I don't
see Dumbledore as a tower of strength, or an all-knowing mentor.  Rather, he
is a witness to the battle of good & evil, a general marshalling his forces
the best way he can; a powerful wizard, with scruples, going up against an
equally powerful wizard without scruples.  He may end up dead, or he may end
up like Gandalf at the end of "Lord of the Rings" -- I can see Harry and
Dumbledore "sailing away" from the everyday world at the end of the series,
both too weary and depleted to participate in a normal life anymore.

Even Merlin wasn't all-powerful... he made mistakes, he got captured, King
Arthur was lost, Camelot was lost...

[Better stop before I get TOO depressed...}

SM Lunatic



-----Original Message-----
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr [mailto:bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr]
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 9:07 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can we believe in Dumbledore?


I've been having some doubts recently about Dumbledore, and I wondered
what you all feel about this:

It's just that I don't believe that Dumbledore is an entirely credible
character.
Are we to believe that he is the father, the son and the holy ghost
all rolled up into one benevolent grandfather figure dispensing
incessant pearls of wisdom to who so ever is willing to listen?




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 18:16:19 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:16:19 
Subject: OT--Something To Remember As We Debate
Message-ID: <F246msSVhGOD6gx3lKy0000450f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11616

Hello, HP4GUers...

I've been watching the debates this weekend with great interest and save my 
questions about the SuperHarry theory, mostly keeping my (opinionated and 
big) mouth shut.

Yesterday, I was reading one of my old favorite poetry books and ran across 
a poem I'm sure all of you know.  Perhaps we should keep it in mind in mind 
as we go back and forth.  It's one of my favorites from childhood.

The Blind Man and the Elephant
--by John Godfrey Saxe

It was six men of Hindostan,
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the elephant,
(Though all of them were blind);
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The first approached the elephant
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl,
"Bless me, it seems the elephant
Is very like a wall."

The second, feeling of his tusk,
Cried, "Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an elephant
Is very like a spear."

The third approached the animal
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Then boldly up he spake;
"I see," quoth he, "the elephant
Is very like a snake."

The fourth stretched out his eager hand
And felt about his knee,
"What most this mighty beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"Tis clear enough the elephant
Is very like a tree."

The fifth who chanced to touch his ear
Said, "Even the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an elephant
Is very like a fan."

The sixth no sooer had begun
About the beast to grope
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," cried he, "this elephant
Is very like a rope."

And so these men of Hindustan
Disputed loud and long,
Each of his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
*****

It stands to reason that JKR has created an elephant.  We fans are like the 
blind men.  On this illustrious list, there are Wall Street Advocates, 
Spear-Throwers, Snakes, Tree-Huggers, Fan-Blowers, and Rope-Lasso-Artists.

All of us are blind.  Even those who take no position whatsoever don't know 
about the existence of the elephant.

I'm going to try to be nicer in the debates here on list.  I've said some 
things in the past that may have ruffled some feathers.  I sincerely 
apologize for the feather-ruffling.

As for fanfic... all bets are off.  :)

Best,

Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Feb  3 18:26:33 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 19:26:33 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: This Ship stuff sounds like shojo (semi-OT)
References: <95h5ge+b3sp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7C4D59.4C240AD3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 11617

Charmian wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> > I'm curious about the slash pairings we talk about here --
> Ron/Harry,
> > Harry/Draco (!) and so on.
>
> Hmmm. I'm not a slash fan myself, but I'm an anime fan as well as a
> HP fan, so I'll try to help you answer these questions. In Japan,
> slash is known as "yaoi" or "shounen-ai" (literally boy-love). This
> can take the form of same-sex relationships in the canon of shoujo
> (literally girl, vs. "shounen" or boy anime/manga) manga/anime, or as
> doujinshi (fanproduced comics) depicting non-canon shounen-ai
> relationships between characters. (The companies, for some reason,
> allow this copyright violation). There are, as they come out of
> different cultures with different takes on sexuality, some
> differences between yaoi and slash, but it's confusing. Some yaoi has
> lots of emotional exploration or angst, other yaoi is plot-what-plot
> sex. Most Western fans like the emotional aspects of it, though,
> IMHO.

Being an anime otaku (obsessee) in training, here's my understanding.
Doujinshi are fan-produced, and the companies allow them because they're
essentially free advertising for the
company. The difference between yaoi and shounen-ai is that yaoi tends
to be much more sex-oriented than shounen-ai, which is more
emotion-oriented - although there are of course
yaoi which are emotional as well. Shoujo manga/anime tend to have
shounen-ai couples because most yaoi/shounen-ai fans are female. The
equivalent of yaoi/shounen-ai for female
characters is yuri/shoujo-ai. The difference between yaoi/shounen-ai and
Western slash is that in yaoi (I'll just refer to both shounen-ai and
yaoi as yaoi from now on, it's
simpler), the roles of the couple are more rigid. There is always one
'seme', the dominant partner, and one 'uke', the submissive partner. In
pairing notation, the seme character
goes first. This is why slash fans who are also anime fans may write
'Ron/Harry' at the top of one fic and 'Harry/Ron' on another - in the
first fic, Ron is the agressive initiator,
and in the second, it's Harry. I hope this clarifies.

- Firebolt



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 18:33:59 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:33:59 -0000
Subject: SHIP: semi-formal analysis 
Message-ID: <95hiun+6r2i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11618


I've been reading some of the shipping posts and I have a few very 
general points.

1. One thing that bugs me a little is that the H/Hers uphold the 
following: 
a. (with careful nonchallance) Ron does like Hermione.
b. (triumphantly) There's no evidence that Hermione likes Ron back.
c. (with gnashing of teeth) There's no evidence of Harry liking 
Hermione/Hermione liking Harry.  
AND
d. H/H pairing is just as probable as H/R pairing. 

Does anybody else see a slight logical problem here? If one side of a 
considered pairing is known to be interested, doesn't that tip the 
odds a bit? I would say that it does make the relationship more 
probable, in that one of the necessary conditions is fulfilled.
Thats on the side of simple logic. But there are further 
psychological considerations. The necessary conditions (R likes Her; 
Her likes R) are not really totally independent of each other. One of 
Penny's pet peeves is that merely because Ron likes Hermione people 
immediately assume they will be together, which implies that 
they ignore what Hermione might be feeling.
The thing is that, generally speaking, a person is not indifferent to 
the romantic interest somebody has for him/her. How often has it 
happened (especially to women) that they ended falling in love with a 
guy they hadn't even noticed before he showed interest in them? Part 
of human nature, isn't it? 

Naama









From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 19:16:59 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 19:16:59 -0000
Subject: Characterization (was Re: Is Draco Redeemable?)
In-Reply-To: <20010203053323.29770.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <95hlfb+v0a8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11619

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Teek <purdymango1 at y...> wrote:

> Alright, I fully admit that from everything we've seen so far in 
the
> books, Draco's a slimy little git. 
> But I have several reasons why I think there's a chance he could 
(or
> at least SHOULD) be redeemed:
> 1 - We haven't seen Draco as anything other than Harry's
> wizard-supremistist schoolyard rival, but that doesn't mean he 
isn't
> any deeper. JKR loves throwing us for curves like that - on first
> read, did any of you see Quirrel, or Moody, as evil? There's no
> definite proof that she's not planning something of the sort over 
the
> course of the next 3 books.
> 

I'm not exactly arguing against what you wrote, Teek, more using it 
as a starting point for something I've been thinking about recently.
It seems that there's a general agreement that JKR "loves throwing us 
for curves". That she's a master of surprises and plot twists. With 
all my love for the books, I disagree with this estimation. 
Personally, I find the mysteries plots rather weak and unpersuasive. 
I've posted here not long ago my reservations about the GoF solution, 
so I won't repeat that. My point here is that all the twists (that I 
can think of) are related to the mystery plots only. They are, to my 
mind, rather obviously devices that serve the mystery plot. They are 
not organically connected to the overall fabric. Except for 
characters directly needed for the mystery plots, all other 
characters are perfectly stable. The first impression we have of them 
is pretty much who they continue to be. In Harry and Draco's first 
meeting, Draco seems to be a spoiled, snobbish, unpleasant brat and 
he continues to be exactly that, only more so. The same goes for 
every character I can think of - Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, 
Hermione, Ron, the Weasleys... Crabb, Goyle (again, except for the 
mystery characters - Quirrel, Moody, Scabbers..). 
Hmmm.. whats my point, you ask? I think I'm trying to say the JKR is 
writing books, that from the characterization aspect, are 
straightforward really. In fact, in this sense I do agree that they 
are definitely children literature <hastily entering anti-nuclear 
shelter>.

One further remark - what I have said is very general and mostly a 
matter of impression. *Please* do not reply by simply adducing 
examples to the contrary. Its very unpersuasive. I can do that by 
myself - Snape is not a simple character and there has been some 
shift of perception regarding him. So what? The question is, does my 
argument *generally* hold or not.

Naama




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 19:34:33 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 19:34:33 -0000
Subject: Super Harry and Christ (Re: Super Harry?)
In-Reply-To: <200102022351.f12NpxC16201@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <95hmg9+ooil@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11620

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at c...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
> wrote:
> > Would someone who does not subscribe to the "There's Something 
> Special About
> > Harry" theories please explain away PS/SS Ch. 1?  Even the 
opening 
> seems to
> > foreshadow his unique status.
> 
> Several people have responded to this already, but as usual I'll 
throw in my 2 
> knuts too.  I don't think anyone has ever argued that Harry isn't 
unique-of 
> course he is!  He's the only person to survive the Avada Kedavra 
curse!  Of 
> course there's something special about him-the very fact that he 
survived.  
> But that doesn't mean he has superpowers either.  Anyway, a lot of 
other 
> people have argued this more eloquently than I, so I'll leave it 
there.
> 
> Kimberly wrote:
> >He's "The Boy Who Lived", but I don't think he's The Boy
> >Who Singlehandedly Defeated Evil Because He's Something Different
> >From All The Other Wizards.  The fact that he lived makes him 
clearly
> >different, but it doesn't necessarily follow that he belongs in a
> >Marvel Comic ;).  At least I hope not.
> 
> That's exactly how I feel, Kimberly!  And I really hope it doesn't 
turn out 
> that way as well.  It just wouldn't fit, IMHO.
> 
> 
> Kathy
> AKA Elanor Gamgee

I was reading this post and was suddenly reminded of the early 
theological arguments about Christ - human? divine? a bit both? fully 
both? (The argument ended, more or less, with the Nicea credo that 
asserted that Christ is fully human and fully divine.)
I'm thinking that the Super Harry debate could be viewed as 
an expression of a continous theme of western-Christian thought - the 
tension between the human and the divine. Supposedly joined and 
reconciled in one enigmatic person, but still pulling in different 
directions.

Naama






From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb  3 20:14:04 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:14:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can we believe in Dumbledore?
References: <95hab9+20fh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7C668B.81793608@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11621

bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr wrote:

> Don't you think that only a credible Dumbledore who has weaknesses and
> overcomes them would be capable of helping Harry to become street
> wise? Because Harry's going to have to develop into a pretty shrewd
> character to bring about the final downfall of Voledemort and his
> cronies, and believing in a Dumbledore-Father Christmas just isn't
> going to help him.

Well, I thought the little aside at the end of GoF, when many Slytherins
did not rise to toast Harry, and it's mentioned that Dumbledore did not
see this, was rather a foot-stomper that Dumbledore does not know all,
see all, and that he could fail to take some things into account. I tend
to interpret his character as Old Age & Experience, tending to let Youth
& Innocence find their own way as much as possible, but helping when
necessary.

--Amanda



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Feb  3 19:25:46 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 15:25:46 EDT
Subject: ADMIN - Debate Netiquette
Message-ID: <id.03022001152546.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 11622

Good afternoon, group!  I'm definitely wearing my moderator hat today.  It's quite lovely, with some pink rosebuds 'round the brim.  Hope you like it.  Anyway, this is just a brief, friendly reminder about etiquette during debates/disputes on this list.  Please know that I am not addressing this message nor pointing the finger of shame at anyone in particular.  It's just a message that I feel needs to be repeated occasionally.

Please, when involved in a debate, remember one little rule, and everyone will be happy and no one's feelings get hurt.  In order to make your point, do so positively - by listing the reasons that uphold your argument rather than negatively - by pointing out what is "wrong" with the opposing argument.  This way, it's a constructive debate.

I have to say (with a great deal of pride) that this list has the nicest bunch of people on any listserv in which I've participated.  And the main reason for that is because we all respect each other's opinions.

Thank you and goodnight.  This - has been 20/20 with Barbara Walters.

Jeralyn, the Voicelady
Moderator Team



From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb  3 20:57:10 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:57:10 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Snapefans] In praise of Snape]
Message-ID: <3A7C70A6.90C8DFFB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11623

I cross-posted this because I finally bestirred myself to type out some
things about Snape in response to a cross-post of Bob's Snapefans
message. Lotsa you older guys have heard ALL this before, but I thought
I'd treat you newbies to Amanda's Take On Snape (you lucky dogs!).

Luv,
Amanda

-------- Original Message --------

bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr wrote:

> As a way of introducing myself, here is the text of something I
> recently posted to HP4GU which to my surprise and disappointment
> didn't seem to provoke any reactions from anyone.

In some defense of HPforGrownups, please realize that we've discussed
loads of Snape stuff (grins guiltily). He's the only character with his
own spinoff group (of which I am aware). So there's a certain amount of
burnout operating.

> Well, just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, I should like to
> propose the following: All the characters in HP are mono-dimensional
> cardboard cut outs with one notable exception, Snape, who is the only
> multi-facetted character amid all the HP personae.

I don't know that I would put this so starkly. He's certainly, to my
mind, the "grayest," i.e., the most complex. But so far the only
character that stands out as a cardboard cutout would be Lockhart. It is
JKR's genius that she is able to write characters which are so very,
very close to sheer caricature, but which are nonetheless somehow very
acceptable as real people. I have found, as the books have progressed,
that even those characters which seemed fairly unidimensional have
gained facets of personality. I think it has to do with Harry's
maturation and the commensurate maturation of his perception and
understanding, since we (with a few notable exceptions) see almost
exclusively through his eyes and point of view.

> Is he good?

Yes.

> Is he bad?

Yes.

> Is he nice (though strict)

Not really

> or is he nasty?

Very much so.

> Does he ultimately work for Harry's good, or for his downfall?

I believe he is ultimately working for Harry's good, perhaps a little
more directly than most people think. I think the scene in Snape's
office, after the mud-throwing incident at the Shrieking Shack, is very
revealing. It *can* be read as simply Snape really, really wanting to
finally get Harry expelled. But there's a layer I sense of Snape's very
real irritation at Harry continuously putting himself in danger, and
ignoring those who try to protect him. Snape does not particularly like
Harry, but he also honestly does not want to see him hurt. It is this
scene, also, wasn't it, which has the tantalizing hint that Snape was
the one who warned James, too, and felt ignored?

I also felt that Snape was quite justified in being angry, later in the
Shrieking Shack, that none of the students he honestly thought he was
saving was showing any gratitude at all. Based on only the information
he had at the time, he *was* saving their bacon and it must have been so
very frustrating that they not only didn't appreciate it, they were
working against him!

[New note in forwarded message] I also noticed that Sirius made no
effort to conjure a stretcher for Snape, when Snape was out cold, and
let his [Snape's] head bump on the tunnel roof, but when Snape was
transporting Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Sirius up to Hogwarts, *he*
brought them in a more civilized fashion.

> Isn't Harry's ultimate quest to measure up to Snape's uncompromising
> moral standards and (pedantic) exactitude?

Okay, here you have made a leap I'm not following. I agree that Snape
has uncompromising moral standards; I have posed before that he has a
very strict internal code. It is all his own, though, and allows the
little nasties he does--I've likened it to Edmund's attitude (in Prince
Caspian, I think) where "he fully intended to back Lucy up, but was
annoyed at losing a night's sleep and was doing everything as sulkily as

possible." Snape has a serious case of sulking, but he's fully committed
to the good guys. And I think the reason is that Voldemort somehow
transgressed that internal code, did something unforgivable (in Snape's
eyes). But where are you getting that Snape and his attitude have
anything to do with Harry's ultimate goal?

> At the end of the day, either you land up sloppy or you become Snape-
> like.

Very very much too black and white for someone who loves grey
characters. There's any number of choices in between.

> It's matter of choice.

That seems to be a main theme of these books. I had an English teacher
once who said that the basic theme of all books boils down to "Justice
vs. Mercy," and she's almost right, but there's a few big basic themes
besides that. I think Dumbledore was JKR's voice, stating that it is our
choices that define us, in the book that showed so clearly that both
Harry and Voldemort had started similarly (NOT just alike, you
detail-analyzers, you!), and had made vastly different choices to bring
them into close to polar opposition.

> I'm looking forward to future HP books where the Snape ? Harry
> reconciliation will occur.

I don't know that Snape and Harry will be reconciled. JKR's made it
pretty clear that she allows interpersonal conflict on the same side, in
fact expects it of a side where you are allowed to think and have
opinions. I think Snape will be reconciled with himself--with his past,
whatever it is. He will only be reconciled with Harry in that he will
finally allow himself to see Harry as himself, rather than the "walking
mass of associations" that Harry has been to him thus far (at least, I
believe, until the end of book 4--I believe the "unreadable expression"
on Snape's face has much to do with the fact that he's having to
reassess quite a few things, Harry himself included).

Okay, not as in-depth as I'd like (holding hands over ears from groans
of disbelief), but there's you the answer I promised.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 21:14:58 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 21:14:58 -0000
Subject: Hermione regarding Neville
In-Reply-To: <3A7B3016.AE13E681@texas.net>
Message-ID: <95hsci+k49v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11624

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Kimberly wrote:
> 
> > > Well, on the first train ride to Hogwarts, upon being introduced 
to
> > Harry, Hermione says:
> > >
> > > > "Are you really?" said Hermione. "I know all about you, of 
course
> > -- I
> > > > got a few extra books. for background reading, and you're in
> > Modern
> > > > Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and 
Great
> > > > Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century.
> > > > <SNIP>
> > > > "Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything I 
could
> > if it
> > > > was me," said Hermione.
> > > >
> >
> > I remembered this, but I hadn't remembered quite how rude it was.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just exceptionally socially inept, but why is this so 
rude?
> It wouldn't have offended me...?
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
Amanda,


I hadn't really considered the rudeness of it either, the first time 
around, but when I really looked at it... I think it's just that it's 
probably more thoughtful not to bring it up unless the other person 
has indicated a willingness to discuss it.  She seems to be talking 
about it as if it's some interesting bit of history, but for Harry, 
it's not history, it's his life, and the reason that he has spent 
pretty much his whole life in an abusive home.

kimberly




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb  3 22:28:12 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 22:28:12 -0000
Subject: Draco/Snape relationship
In-Reply-To: <01c08b98$7c82a340$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <95i0ls+okp6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11625

>Teek wrote: 
> >I think that if anyone who Draco "cares about" was to be hurt by
> >Voldemort, it would be Snape. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> Monika Z. wrote:
> I'm not sure Malfoy cares for him. The only thing we know for 
certain is that Snape favours Draco almost beyond common sense. I 
guess Draco likes it, but I'm not sure what he thinks of Snape. I 
have an impression that he finds Snape more "useful" than respect-
worthy (you know, something like "Who cares what Snape thinks? He'll 
back us up no matter what we do!"). <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>Amy Z. wrote:
Do we?  I'm not even sure about this.  We know Snape favors the 
Slytherins in general, and he doesn't punish Draco for things he'd 
punish Gryffindors (particularly Harry) for.  This information comes 
to us via Harry, of course, but it seems to be objectively true.  But 
I don't know if we have any reason to think Snape favors, much less 
likes, Draco. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Amy, you make a good point that we're seeing Snape's treatment of 
Draco et al through Harry's eyes, so we don't know how accurate this 
is, or how he treats them when Harry's not around.  Having said that, 
I do believe he favors them, and after GoF, my theory is that he's 
doing this knowing that it'll get back to Lucius.  Lucius is back in 
the DEs, at least he's been working towards helping Vold the last few 
years, so perhaps he may have weight in the Vold camp.  If this is 
so, when Snape attempts to return to Vold as a spy, Lucius may stick 
up for him, telling Vold that Snape has always remained true to Vold 
(his favoring of the Slyth's and unfair treatment of the Gryff's 
point to this), he'll be a genuine asset being in Dumble's inner 
circle, etc.  Vold may remain suspicious, but I think Lucius will be 
convinced of Snape's sincerity.  So, basically, Snape has 'layed it 
on thick' to keep up his cover for when the time comes (now) that he 
has to return to spying.

> Amy Z.:
The most egregious case is in PA when he makes Ron and Harry cut up 
Draco's roots and all that, but is this really for Draco's benefit or 
is Snape just using Draco as a way to get at our boys?  In which case 
Snape and Draco do a lot of mutual using.  (I don't necessarily 
believe Draco thinks Snape is the best teacher in the school, either, 
when he says so in CS.  He's sucking up.) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Agree about the 'mutual using', agree with Monika about Draco 
probably finding Snape more 'useful' than worthy of respect.  I don't 
know if you could even accept an evaluation from Draco about who 
the 'best' teacher is; every student's opinion would differ, anyway.  
But, I do think Snape is the teacher Draco 'likes' best, or whatever, 
because of the favoritism.  I think Draco's sucking up is 
the 'teacher's pet' thing.

> Teek:
> >Voldemort does not generally forgive those who abandon him, and 
any death eater who has been exposed as Dumbledore's "valuable spy" 
would be, in my opinion, first on Voldemort's list of "people to kill 
off most unpleasantly." <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 
Remind me, when was Snape exposed as Dumble's 'valuable spy', at 
least to anyone who's not a good guy?  I'm thinking that no DEs know 
that Snape was working for Dumble.

> Monika Z.:
> I agree. But some people think that Snape could explain everything 
to Voldemort, even his Anti-Ouirrel Campaign. Personally I doubt it. 
I'm not sure Severus can lie convincingly. He certainly cannot 
control his face too well. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I'm one of those who believe Snape will convince Vold, and I think if 
anyone can 'lie convincingly', it's Snape.  Control his face?  Hmm, 
I'm trying to think what you mean.  I've always thought he had a 
pretty good 'poker face'; usually the same face all the time...
 
> Teek:
> >It's another of Voldemort's blind spots that he hasn't
> >killed Snape already. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> Monika Z.:
> Practically, he had neither time nor opportunity. But I'm sure 
he'll try. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, when Vold is addressing his DEs, p. 651, Amer. version, and 
refers to the missing DEs, I think when he says "One, who I believe 
has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...", I think this 
is a reference to Snape.  Vold isn't positive that Snape has left him 
forever, so this is the opening Snape needs.  I do think he'll 
convince him; though, later if Vold learns that Snape has been lying 
to him, and has really been fatihful to Dumble all along, then Snape 
is up a creek.  
 
> Teek: 
> >But a very powerful git. Maybe Voldemort doesn't know that Snape 
is a traitor, but Lucius (or some other death eater) does, and is 
keeping it as black mail. It would explain some of the favoritism 
that Snape shows Draco. <<<<<<<<<<<

This could be possible, but Lucius is one of the ones who said they'd 
been 'brainwashed' or 'controlled' or whatever, when Vold fell.  He 
wussed out, and apparently some in the wizarding community must know 
this.  I'd be surprised if Vold didn't learn of it.  Seems Lucius 
would be just as ripe for blackmail as Snape.  Of course, Lucius has 
been working on Vold's behalf for a while now...
 
> Monika:
>I'm sure that Voldemort meant Snape when he talked about the
> Death Eater "who I believe has left us forever", but that Death 
Eaters (at least some of them) cannot be sure whom he meant.<<<<<<<<<
 
Yes.  Sorry, Monika, I forgot you wrote this.  You're right, I think, 
the DEs don't know who all -are- DEs, and would probably not know 
exactly who Vold meant.

> Teek: 
> >Does anyone think that Snape's blatent unfairness is just residual
> >Potter-Hatred, and a bias toward Slytherin House?
> Monika:
> I'm afraid it might be Snape's sense of humour as well. I do hope 
there's something more in it...

Yes, I think it's all this, plus, serves Snape's spy purposes to keep 
them all believing this...
 
Kelley




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  3 23:31:35 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 23:31:35 -0000
Subject: Ron/Sirius parallels
In-Reply-To: <3A7B8B80.A651D5ED@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95i4cn+ee3k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11626

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

Oh, let me start out by saying I think I snipped a part about our 
interptetations of anger.  Penny, I'm sorry I misunderstood what you 
were saying.

I said:
> > Ok, I can buy that - it's true we don't know what motivated it   
>>[the werewolf prank by Sirius].  I was assuming it was anger 
>>because the alternative as I saw it was something far more 
>>frightening.  But I may be overlooking another more reasonable 
>>motivation.  What is your
> > suggestion?
> 

Penny:
> :::shrugs:::   I have no suggestions really.  <g>  I'm just noting 
that
> we don't know the full story; therefore, I don't think it's fair for
> people to make judgments about who was the wronged party in that
> scenario without having all the facts (or more of them than we do).
> Snape *appears* to be the aggrieved party, but things aren't always 
as
> they appear to be in the JKR universe IMO.

But then we go back to the thing that I've been trying to explain.  
I'm not interested in the least in who was the wronged party, only in 
what may or may not have motivated Sirius, and the facts we have are:
 
-Snape did not get along with James/Sirius et al
-Lupin was in werewolf mode.
-Sirius told Snape how to get past the Womping Willow to where Lupin 
was.
-By all accounts the above was a prank, but nobody makes motivation 
100% clear.
-James saw the danger in what was happening and stopped Snape from 
getting hurt.
All of the above points seem to be accepted by all parties involved.
What I was trying to do was extrapolate possible reasons for what 
Sirius did.  I came up with the options I mentioned previously, and 
of all of them I chose anger/hot-headedness as (in my opinion) the 
most reasonable and least heinous of the possibilities.  I wasn't 
trying to say poor defenseless Snape was attacked by horrible Sirius, 
just that the act of sending Snape after Lupin occurred, by all 
accounts, and the most reasonable explanation I could come up with 
was a rash or angry decision.

I said: 
> > I may be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure he says in PoA  
that
> > he went looking for him, and that he wanted to kill him, but that
> > Peter was too quick for him.  Can anyone tell me if I've made > > 
> >that up in my head?  It wouldn't be the first time, I admit.  But 
> >even if I got that wrong, as I understand it Sirius wasn't much of 
> >a suspect before Pettigrew created the scene, cried out that he'd 
> >betrayed James and Lily and then was 'killed' by him.
> 

Penny:
> Well, I think it's reasonable to assume that he *would* have been a
> prime suspect, even absent that scene with Pettigrew & the murders 
of
> the muggles.  At *that* point, Dumbledore and Remus (and presumably 
most
> anyone else with any knowledge of the situation) thinks Black was 
the
> Secret-Keeper.

Ok, but what about my primary point?  I leant out my books, so I'm 
relying on my memory, which tends to get 'creative' on me all the 
time.  Did I imagine the part about Sirius saying he wanted/intended 
to kill Pettigrew?

<snips for space>

Penny:
> Oh, I see those parallels too.  Really!  I just see *more* parallels
> between Hermione and Sirius.  Maybe it's just me.  I don't have much
> concrete evidence tonight -- sorry.  I think she does have parallels
> with both of those characters, but I just lean toward a Sirius 
parallel
> being a bit stronger.

I'm just trying to understand where you're getting the stronger 
parallels.  Do you mean you see them, but you just can't think of the 
examples right now, or that you feel them, like a gut thing?  I 
totally understand those kinds of things, it's the only thing I have 
to go on in my hopes of Harry/Ginny lovins :)- I know there's no 
evidence that they will have a relationship, I just kinda like the 
idea.  Is that kind of what you're experiencing here?  

I teased:
> >
> > Now now ;), if I can't know the details about the Sirius/Snape
> > incident, you can't know what Hermione told Ron - you can't have 
> >it both ways.
> 
Penny:
> I'm not trying to be intellectually dishonest.  I think I said
> originally (if I didn't -- I meant to) that I *assume* Hermione must
> have told Ron that Harry didn't enter himself into the Tournament.  
>I assume this because she did try to explain Ron's feelings to 
>Harry, so I logically infer that she would have tried to explain 
>Harry's position to Ron at some point.  That could very well be off-
>base, but it wouldn't be very much like Hermione to only give Harry 
>Ron's POV.

I can agree with that, you're probably right that she went back and 
forth between them throughout the fight trying to get them both to 
come around.  She is nothing if not persistant when it comes to 
people she cares about.

> 
> I think we do also know *alot* more about the Harry/Ron fight in 
>general than we do about the Sirius/Snape werewolf prank.  We know 
>enough about the Harry/Ron to make some inferences, but we have 
>absolutely no idea what motivated Sirius to play that prank on Snape.

True, that's why I was trying to understand what *did* motivate him.  
I wasn't trying to belittle Sirius, as I love him to death.  
Basically, we've got heaven knows how long before we get another 
book, and all the speculation is a fun way to pass the time, at least 
in my twisted :P brain.  So I came up with what I thought were the 
possible motivations, and narrowed it down based on what I know of 
Sirius so far.  As I love him, I'm hoping it wasn't cold-blooded 
cruelty, and I don't think he's just dumb.  I'm still open to other 
possible interpretations, and am bound to change my mind a few times 
before I can ever get my hands on book 5.

> 
> > Penny:<snip for length again>
> Harry needlessly prolonged that fight.  But, the
> fight itself was started by Ron.

Once again, you won't get an argument from me on that.

> 
> > Again, we don't know what Hermione said to him or what he was
> > thinking.  I agree it was probably about jealousy, but this is 
even
> > more speculative than my comments on Sirius and Snape as kids, 
since
> > we do have *some* account of that incident.
> 
> See above.  I do disagree with this.  We know what happened in the
> Sirius/Snape incident to be sure.  But, we know zero, zip, nada 
about
> what motivated Sirius to do it in the first place.

I don't know about zero, zip *and* nada ;)- that's an awful lot of 
nothing, after all.  But I don't think my interpretation is 
unreasonable, or even less reasonable than any alternative that's 
been mentioned.  I'm still more than willing to believe another more 
plausible interpretation should one present itself.  It's just I've 
exhausted my supply of ideas on the subject, and no others have been 
presented to me.

I said:
> > But I can't see how this makes him dissimilar to Sirius, as 
>>Sirius did the very same thing to Remus.  Lupin had done nothing to 
>>make his friends suspect him of being disloyal, but they distrusted 
>>him so much that they left him completely out of the decision to 
>>change secret-keepers.

Penny replied: 
> Dumbledore and others suspected that *someone* close to the Potters 
>was passing information to Voldemort.  Something convinced Sirius 
>that he should trust Pettigrew rather than Lupin.  It was a wrong 
>decision, but we still don't know all the facts surrounding how he 
>came to that decision.

And *everyone* at Hogwarts and from the other schools and from the 
ministry except for Harry himself, Hermione, I think Hagrid, and 
Dumbledore, suspected that Harry did something to get his name in 
that cup.  Ron wasn't just making up some wild accusation - he was, 
albeit wrongly, agreeing with all but 4 of the at least hundreds of 
people involved.  It, too, was a wrong decision, but had it been 
completely unthinkably rediculous to believe Harry put his name in 
the goblet, then more people would probably have noticed.  So they 
both made wrong, misinformed decisions against their friends based on 
the evidence as they saw it, and in Ron's case probably also based on 
hurt feelings and jealousy.  At least that's the way I view it.

> 
> Anyway .... I still think Hermione has more parallels to Sirius than
> Ron, but we can just agree to disagree, right?  <g>
> 

Sure, of course!  I'm not trying to force you to agree with me, I 
promise!  I just got the impression I was in for some enlightening 
debate that might shed new light on the characters, that's all.  But 
there's always plenty of that around, that's what makes it so 
interesting here!

Peace,
kimberly





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat Feb  3 23:45:47 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (lj2d30 at gateway.net)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 23:45:47 -0000
Subject: Can we believe in Dumbledore?
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEKPCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <95i57b+mt2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11627

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> I find Dumbledore very fallible and sometimes frighteningly 
ineffective. The first time I really felt that way was the scene when 
he was consoling the Weasleys on the loss of Ginny, all the while 
Harry and Ron were in the Chamber of Secrets fighting Tom Riddle and 
rescuing Ginny.  If D is such a great wizard, why didn't he know what 
was happening?  Or worse, DID he know, and left Harry to deal with it 
because it was good training?  URF!  Four lives could have been lost 
that day (Harry, Ron, Ginny, and Lockhart).  At least D's phoenix 
(Fawkes) went to the rescue...

Remember at the the time Ginny is taken into the Chamber of Secrets, 
Dumbledore is not at Hogwarts, having been temprorarily removed as 
Headmaster thanks to Lucius Malfoy's intimidation of the other 11 
school governors. However, he did return forthwith after news of her 
abduction reached him.  Somehow, I have the impression that he was 
met with the Weasley parents immediately upon his arrival who then 
demanded to know the details and what they could do, etc. I can't 
imagine Molly Weasley being told "Wait here, my dear, I need to go to 
the Chamber of Secrets," and sitting docilely by without knowing all 
the details.  After all, for a short, plump, kind-faced woman it is 
remarkable how much she looks like a saber-toothed tiger.  

Just because Dumbledore seems to be all-knowing doesn't mean that he 
is.  Salazar Slytherin hid his chamber very well and, indeed, no one 
seems to be sure of its existence, except as legend.  Even Prof. 
Binns denies it exists and he's been at Hogwarts longer than 
Dumbledore (at least I think he has, he is a ghost after all.).
  
>> He fails to prevent Sirius Black from entering Hogwarts.<<

He doesn't know Sirius is an animagus, or that he knows the secret 
passageways into Hogwarts.  

>>>But I don't see Dumbledore as a tower of strength, or an all-
knowing mentor.  Rather, he is a witness to the battle of good & 
evil, a general marshalling his forces the best way he can; a 
powerful wizard, with scruples, going up against an equally powerful 
wizard without scruples<<<

I agree.  Dumbledore is a very powerful wizard doing his best agaisnt 
the very worst.  No one is infallible, least of all Albus Dumledore, 
but I would rather he be in charge of my child's education at 
Hogwarts than Cornelius Fudge, who looks the truth squarely in the 
face and denies it's there.  Dumbledore is aware that Voldemort is on 
the return and is willing to give his students the tools necessary to 
fight, for whichever side they so choose.  He never dismisses the 
existence of free will.  Every student will have to choose where 
thier allegiance lies in the coming years and it will be out of his 
hands.  He knows this, and he will do all he can to help them make 
the right decision, but he is only one man. 

But a good man.

Trina




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  4 00:15:58 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:15:58 -0800
Subject: Owl Post - Canary Creams - Gold - Puppies - Harold Bloom - Eclectic*rity  - Fanfic/Cho - Good Grades - Chatscript - Ships/Slash 
Message-ID: <3A7C9F3D.B671EE0D@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11628

Mike  mschub at y... wrote:
> So how do the Dursleys' Christmas presents, meager though they
> may be, get to Harry on Christmas?

I feel certain that there is an accommodation address to which Muggle
mail may be sent for Owl Post forwarding.  I suspect the address is an
upper floor of the record shop next to the Leaky Cauldron and that one
job done by Tom at the Leaky Cauldron or his employees is to every day
check that mailbox and carry its contents to the Owl Post office on
Diagon Alley.  I suppose that the Muggle outer envelope must contain 1)
an Owl addressed inner envelope, and 2) some money to pay for the Owl
Post (it can be Muggle money, as Muggle money can be changed at
Gringotts).

Mike  mschub at y... wrote:
> something that Fred and George are able to do. Now, they're no
> dummies, but they're no Percy either. Just a thought.

I suspect that ALL those Weasley kids are academagical geniuses. Percy
used his abilities for getting good grades, lots of OWLs and NEWTS,
participating in student government and sucking up to faculty, while the
twins use theirs for practical jokes, rule-breaking, and inventing joke
magic. For all we know, Bill and Charlie got as many OWLs and NEWTs as
Percy -- Bill was Head Boy and maybe Charlie would have been chosen Head
Boy except that he was so busy being the Quidditch Captain and the
second choice boy was *almost* as good. Maybe Ron is a lot better of a
student than he thinks he is: SS says: "Harry had almost forgotten that
the exam results were still to come, but come they did. To their great
surprise, both he and Ron passed with good marks; Hermione, of course,
had the best grades of the first years."

A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> Isn't it interesting that wizards use actual gold, and
> not pieces of paper that used to represent gold,

I suspect that wizards use, not gold, but Galleons. I suspect that the
Galleon coins are magic, which would explain why they aren't bending and
warping all over the place, and how they can be light enough to carry,
and my original idea of the magic was simply that it made them
impossible to counterfeit. The other wizarding coins may be magic. I'm
in love with the notion that wizarding money *does* grow on trees, magic
trees, very heavily guarded trees administered by the MoM.

Maggie in Texas wrote:
> I confess to being bewildered by anyone saying
> they do NOT like Sirius! (snip)   Paws Forever

I see that your Paws Forever is a Pet Rescue group (for cocker spaniels.
I know someone who would want a spaniel/sheltie cross, but she's in Los
Angeles) but at first I thought it was a cheer for Padfoot.

Andrea H Bonfanti wrote:
> [Harold] Bloom [said]: Do you really believe children will read
> better books after reading Harry Potter? I don't think so.

Of course I don't agree with Bloom. I know that a number of people of
whom I think well think that he is a culturally important genius, but
every time I have heard him on the radio, he has said deeply stupid,
idiotic things. Once he said that the jazz solo was invented when Louis
Armstrong played his trumpet so well that all the other band members
just stopped playing in order to listen.  Recently, he was on a
discussion on KCRW about e-books, and he said that e-books are just no
good because they are going back to the scroll, which was used before
the invention of the codex [the codex is the type of book we are used
to, with pages that turn]. He didn't say WHY he thought the e-book is
like a scroll. He didn't say what's wrong with the scroll (all I know to
be wrong with scrolls is that you can't go straight to the page number
that you found in the index because you have to unroll all the way from
the beginning, which is not only inconvenient but wears the book out
faster). He DID say that the codex started with Gutenberg, which is
UTTER NONSENSE: the codex was already being used in Late Antiquity. By
the time that Christian monks were illuminating books, all those books
were codices.

"Jim Ferer" wrote:
> But doesn't that demonstrate how intensely narcissistic the literary
> process has become?  They are sure of their superiority and their
> elite status, based on their own insular standards.  Their writing is
>  impenetrable and completely tied up in process. None of  them
> believe in telling a story that reaches people or informs them.

I'm not sure this is fair. I listen to Michael Silverblatt's show
BOOKWORM on KCRW (which is available in Real Audio at www.kcrw.org) and
enjoy it BECAUSE it is so alien to me: Michael and his authors really
LOVE reading that stuff (stuff that I generally can't stand), and it
really means a lot to them (despite being meaningless to me).

 Star <star_ling at c...> wrote:
> I had a thought about the questions of if Muggle electricity  get's
> screwed up how come cameras and watches work.  I figure that small
> things running on BATTERY power such as watches and cameras are
> ok but not big things that connect to plug ins.

I have a different theory. I think that the Muggle cameras and watches
that work at Hogwarts are the old mechanical kind that don't use
electricity (thus showing JKR to be as old-fashioned in her thinking as
the wizarding folk are). When I was a kid (back in the 1960s), Timex
cheap watches were entirely mechanical. They worked by clockwork gears
and got their power from springs which got their power from being wound
up daily with a winding stem on the side of the watch. And Kodak was
still making an entirely mechanical Brownie camera.

 "Jim Ferer" wrote:
> The problem with posting fic here is this: there's no stats and no
> way to know if anybody's read our stuff, and no reviews either.

All too true. I post my fics in this egroup, and I have no sense that
ANYONE has read them. I was expecting to get e-mail (perhaps off-list)
telling me, NO!, I'm wrong about e.g. how the werewolf reacts to
scenting a human... The fics carry my opinions about a lot of subjects
discussed on list. For example, my theory that Cho and Cedric have been
going together since half-way through PoA, so that Cho not wearing a
POTTER STINKS button or taunting Harry is a sign of her general
niceness.

Kimberly Moon wrote:
> Plus Remus missed a couple of days of classes every month
> due to err.... non-feminine pms :), which was bound to affect his
grades.

But I feel sure that Sirius (like the twins, above) didn't get anything
like the grades he was capable of, due to not working at it: he seems
like the type who would do all homework at (or after) the last possible
minute, and maybe even put gag answers on exams.

 keith.fraser at s... wrote:
> In future we will have to put them [chat transcripts] in the Files
section.

Yucky-poo. I can't read the transcripts that have been put in the Files
sections because my browser shows me all the html -- 40 characters per
each character of text, especially in people like me who do color fades.

Pippin wrote:
> > Well, it's been mentioned that one of the few things the H/H and the

> > R/H camps have in common is that both would rather see Ron and Harry

> > get together than see the boy they don't endorse wind up with
> > Hermione. I know I would.
> Poor Hermione! condemned to a life alone, all in the name of peace
> and originality...oh well, I guess Batman's available <g>
Hermione wouldn't have to be alone. She could date Viktor.... or
Sirius... or Remus... or even Severus.... or all those f/f relationships
that have been suggested.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Sun Feb  4 00:33:17 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 00:33:17 -0000
Subject: ADMIN - Debate Netiquette
In-Reply-To: <id.03022001152546.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <95i80d+2s29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11629

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "voicelady" <voicelady at m...> wrote:

> Please, when involved in a debate, remember one little rule, and 
> everyone will be happy and no one's feelings get hurt.  In order to 
> make your point, do so positively - by listing the reasons that 
> uphold your argument rather than negatively - by pointing out what 
> is "wrong" with the opposing argument.  This way, it's a 
> constructive debate.

Here you are quite wrong. To make a debate worthwhile you have to  
point out the weaknesses in the arguments of others if you are to get 
your point across. In order to present a theory/opinion it is often 
necessary to discount opposing theories/opinions to make your own 
credible. I do agree that this should be done in a way that respects 
other peoples opinions, but if there is a legitimate reason why 
another person is incorrect in an assumption, it would be to the 
detriment of the discussion not to point it out.



Dai






From mschub at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 00:47:34 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 00:47:34 -0000
Subject: Draco/Snape relationship
In-Reply-To: <95i0ls+okp6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95i8r6+lpgp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11630

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> Well, when Vold is addressing his DEs, p. 651, Amer. version, and 
> refers to the missing DEs, I think when he says "One, who I believe 
> has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...", I think this 
> is a reference to Snape.  Vold isn't positive that Snape has left 
him 
> forever, so this is the opening Snape needs.  I do think he'll 
> convince him; though, later if Vold learns that Snape has been lying 
> to him, and has really been fatihful to Dumble all along, then Snape 
> is up a creek.  

This just occurred to me: (I had never even THOUGHT of this before, 
but now I'm totally convinced.) Snape is going to die for Harry. At 
the beginning, V will accept him back, begrudgingly, and sort of 
half-trust him. Then V will find out that Snape is a spy, and instead 
of killing him, begin to use him. Snape will eventually find out he's 
being used, find out that it's put Harry in danger, and stand up to V 
(and die). So Snape will die for Harry. I can't believe I never 
thought of that before. I don't think he will "die for Harry Potter", 
but I can totally see Snape "dying to defeat the Dark Lord", and in 
order to do that, I think he will recognize that he will have to die 
for Harry Potter.
-Mike




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  4 00:59:05 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:59:05 -0800
Subject: Draco  - Snape - Death Eaters - My Fanfic
Message-ID: <3A7CA957.24CF64EE@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11631

 "Sister Mary Lunatic" wrote:
> s anyone else seriously bothered by the fact that Draco comes in
> to Harry's train compartment at the end of GoF and actually
> TAUNTS him about the death of Cedric? Draco jerked his head at
> Ron and Hermione. "Too late now, Potter!  They'll be the first to go,
> now the Dark Lord's back!  Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first!
> Well - second - Diggory was the f-"   (snip)
> WAS Cedric Diggory pureblood or mudblood?  How about Barty
> Crouch, Junior and Senior?

I'm bothered by scene because Draco is being SO CHILDISH in it. Gloating
loudly about the Dark Lord being back when his family's is still
pretending, for security reasons, to be against the Dark Lord (which
will do as an explanation for sending Draco back to Hogwarts). Saying
'first' and then correcting himself -- I don't spend much time with
children, but that strikes me as more 10 year old than 14 year old, and
doesn't omen well for him maturing enough to make his own decision which
side to be on.

Amos Diggory is a wizard who works for the Ministry of Magic -- we saw
him sticking his head up out of the Weasley fireplace, and at the World
Cup. There's no reason to assume that his wife is Muggle, so Cedric
would have been pureblood.  Someone (I think Dumbledore) described Barty
Jr as the last member of a proud old wizarding family but look what he
chose to do with his life (i.e. pureblood).

Someone else asked whether the Death Eaters knew that their Dark Lord
was a Halfblood. I guess they did, as Barty Junior said that he and the
Dark Lord had in common having had very unsatisfactory fathers, being
named after them, and having killed them. I wonder how the ones whose
motive was that they cared about pedigrees rationalized that?

Charmian  sashibuya at h... wrote:
>  Does Snape really like being a teacher?  Or does he not and that's
> one of the reasons he's so embittered (Why is Snape so bitter anyway,
> if one doesn't buy the Lily theory? ) He seems to enjoy potions, but
> hate the students. (snip) But if he dislikes the actual teaching
process
> so much, why doesn't he find another job

In my universe, Snape was already bitter before he started first year at
Hogwarts. I imagine that his parents didn't really want children, but
felt they needed a son to carry on the family name or to use in a
special spell, so they had one but avoided him as much as possible,
leaving him to be raised by servants... and fired any of the servants
who were nice to him, on the grounds that 'coddling will make you soft".

(Altho' I admit that the Snape-loved-Lily theory ties up an AWFUL lot of
loose ends. It's just not something I can write fanfic about.)

If other Death Eaters know that Snape not only testified against them,
but was spying against them BEFORE the Dark Lord fell, some of them who
are still on the loose may be serious enough about wanting revenge that
Hogwarts is the only safe place for him to be. In that regard, have we
ever seen him go even to Hogmeade?

However, I need to think of another explanation of why Snape stays at
Hogwarts (loyalty to Dumbledore? belief that he can turn his Slytherins
away from the Dark Side?) because in my fic, Lucius and Draco still
think that Snape is on their side, and only testified against Death
Eaters for the perfectly reasonable (from their point of view) purpose
of saving his own skin after the Dark Lord fell.

Monika Zaboklicka wrote:
> >I think that if anyone who Draco "cares about" was to be hurt by
> >Voldemort, it would be Snape.
> I'm not sure Malfoy cares for him. The only thing we know for certain
> is that Snape favours Draco almost beyond common sense. I guess
> Draco likes it, but I'm not sure what he thinks of Snape. I have an
> impression that he finds Snape more "useful" than respect-worthy
(snip)
> I'm not sure Severus can lie convincingly. He certainly cannot control

> his face too well.
> >What does Snape think of Draco?
> I wonder myself. I tend to think that he likes Draco and finds him
> amusing (they have very similar sense of humour).
> The Snape/Lucius Malfoy relationship is deep mistery to me. They
> never  mentioned each other, never had been seen together.

Snape sure does a terrible job of controlling his face in canon, but he
must have been able to do so back when he was spying on the Dark Side.

I believe that Draco feels both affection and respect for Snape, and
Snape feels affection for Draco.  (I mean, feelings they had long before
any sexual feelings started, in my fic.) Draco admires Snape's high
intelligence, high talent for Potions, vicious and witty tongue, and
'command voice': ability to extract obedience from students. Snape is
Draco's favorite teacher, House Master, and more of a father figure than
his own heartless father is. Snape likes Draco because he is a bright
kid, good at Potions, with a Snape-style sense of humor. (There is
argument whether Draco is a clever or stupid student.  I say, if his
father can't find anything worse to blame him for than getting worse
grades than *Hermione*, he must get *good* grades.)

I had already outlined the third episode of BAD DREAMS (while struggling
to write the second episode in which Draco and Severus discover that
they are on opposite sides and start trying to convert each other), in
which Draco's effort to save Severus from a slowly deadly curse brings
him reluctantly over to the Light Side, whereupon he feels the need to
convert his friends with him: Crabbe, Goyle, Parkinson, Nott[, and
Lestrange -- see below].

As for the Severus/Lucius relationship: read my fic. Severus's
inclination is to hero-worship Lucius, for his good looks, elegance,
wealth, charm, social standing (all things Severus lacks), intelligence,
and interest (faked?) in Severus's Potions research. Lucius's
inclination is to keep Severus hooked (by talking nice to him and
providing research grants) because Severus's talent at Potions can be
useful. Severus believed that Lucius's Death Eating was caused by being
bewitched, which is why he reacted so strongly to Harry's mention of
Lucius's name among the current Death Eaters. Lucius believes that
Severus is still a Death Eater at heart, faking conversion the same as
him.

Teek <purdymango1 at y...> wrote:
> 3 - At some point, I also need to make a post about the number of
> death eater's children who are in Harry's year... for a group of 30
> or so members in the graveyard, does it strike anyone else as weird
> that *five* of them had kids (or kids with suspiciously similiar last
> names that just happened to be put in Slytherin) born in 1980?

I put in my fic that Voldemort told his Death Eaters that there was a
prophecy about a boy with a special destiny who would be conceived
around Halloween and born around Lammas, and that he wanted this boy to
be raised up on his side, and therefore ordered them all to go out and
spawn.  Co-incidentally, Lily threw a Halloween party (for her Light
Side friends) jolly enough that by the end of the evening, no one was in
condition to remember about Contraceptive Charms. Thus, Harry Potter and
Susan Bones and Draco Malfoy and Vincent Crabbe and Gregory Goyle and
[Regina] Nott [and Amanita Lestrange] were all born in the same month,
from Draco on June 24, a little early, to Harry on July 31, a little
late. Who is the 5th kid?

Kelley wrote:
> Remind me, when was Snape exposed as Dumble's 'valuable spy', at
> least to anyone who's not a good guy?  I'm thinking that no DEs know
> that Snape was working for Dumble.

One of the trial scenes shown in the Pensieve -- IIRC the one where
Karkaroff tried to buy his release from Azkaban by turning in his
friends -- shows Snape being accused and Dumbledore rising in open court
to vouch for Snape, that he had turned against the Dark Side and been a
useful spy to the Light Side while the Dark Lord was still in power.
Everyone in the courtroom heard, which may have included Rita Skeeter
(Harry saw her in at least one Pensieve trial scene) or some other
journalist. Even if no journalist published that information, people
gossip and word gets around: how could the escaped Death Eaters NOT know
that Snape was the spy against them?

 bob.mornington at w... wrote:
> Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone agree with me that
> "Death-Eaters" was rather a silly name for JKR to have chosen for
> Voldemort's supporters?

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:
> Death Eaters -- perhaps Voldemort retains the loyalty of his
supporters by
> promising them that one day they, too, will be immortal like him (they
will
> "eat" death).  They'd sell their souls for eternal life and power over

> weaker beings...

My fanfic says:
... his friends clustered around him, cheerfully congratulating him on
having joined their fellowship, and Lucius Malfoy told him: "A wizard of
your talent will be an invaluable asset to the Dark Lord," while the
others praised the advantages of the Dark Side. It's a great career
move, said Cassius Avery, and it can get you laid, said Evan Rozier, and
agents in the Ministry will cause DMLE to lose all evidence against you,
said Danoto Wilkes, and of course it is logical that the people with the
most wizarding power should rule, said Casper Lestrange, while those
with no magic at all must be kept under control, especially since they
had a long history of enviously trying to kill wizards. "And
immortality!" Damiana Lestrange exclaimed: "The conquest of death!"

And Damiana explained that their master was named Vol-de-mort because he
meant to steal life from death. A very great wizard, he had invented the
most powerful spells for becoming immortal, and was directing skilled
followers to refine the spells to be used upon lesser wizards without
killing them. "And then he will reward his loyal disciples with
immortality! We're called Death Eaters because we eat death and spit it
out!"

As Wilkes, who had always been a vulgar type, cheerfully mocked Damiana
for having said P when she meant H, Severus reflected that this wouldn't
be so bad after all. What a research project!
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Sun Feb  4 01:18:29 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 01:18:29 -0000
Subject: Snapes spy status
In-Reply-To: <95i0ls+okp6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95ial5+8sbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11632

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
  
> Remind me, when was Snape exposed as Dumble's 'valuable spy', at 
> least to anyone who's not a good guy?  I'm thinking that no DEs 
know 
> that Snape was working for Dumble.

During Karkarofs trial in the pensieve scene in GoF. Dumbledore 
announces it in the court when Karkarof is being tried. I find it 
unlikely that the bad guys will not have known about this. These 
trials would obviously have been well publicised (by Rita Skeeta for 
example, who was at Ludo Bagmans trial) and the reports would most 
likely have been front page of the Daily Prophet continually.


Dai




From john at walton.to  Sun Feb  4 01:33:12 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 01:33:12 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <95hg3g+115q0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6A261D8.B42D%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 11633

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
>> foxmoth at q... wrote:
>> 
>>> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
>>>> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> As I'm forever pointing out to people, please to remember that
> in
>>>>> addition to the Jews, the Slavs and Gypsies were also
> exterminated. Just
>>>>> as many Poles, Gypsies, and homosexuals died as did Jews. It
> wasn't just
>>>>> a Jewish thing. It was a non-Aryan thing.
>>>> 
>>>> Don't forget the 20 million Russian civilians who were killed on
> the Eastern
>>>> Front by the advancing Armies of the Third Reich. Oh, and the
> tens of
>>>> thousands of Southeast Asian people massacred by the Japanese.
>>>> 
>>>> --John
>>> They should never be forgotten, but they were not Holocaust
>>> victims.
>>> The term Holocaust refers to those destroyed in the Endlosung,
> the
>>> "Final Solution', not Axis victims in general.
>> 
>> ::takes a deep breath and counts to ten::
>> 
>> Pippin, I'm sure that you didn't mean it to come across as such,
> but that
>> last message really made me angry in that it seemed to insinuate
> that the
>> deaths of those who were not specifically singled out for genocide
> by Hitler
>> on his insane Aryan crusade were "less important" than those not
>> specifically targetted.
>> 
>> Remember, there were MORE "non-genocide" victims than those killed
> in the
>> name of the Aryan "race". Three to four times as many, in fact. And
> what
>> does the international community do to the perpetrators of THOSE
> crimes?
>> Nurnburg? Nope. Trying them well into their eighth decade? Naw.
> Zip. Zilch.
>> Nada.
>> 
> 
> So, any old war is just as bad as genocide?

"Any old war"? This is the largest conflict in the history of humankind
you're calling "any old war"!

> Come on! War is a indeed a terrible thing. Moreover, besides being terrible in
> itself it is terrible in that it brings the worst in people. Atrocities
> happen. Civilians are needlessly killed. Cruelty and brutal indifference to
> human lives flourishes.

Aw. Shucks. And there was I thinking that war was just people

> BUT genocide is the attempt to SYSTEMATICALLY annihilate a nation.

You insinuate that UNSYSTEMATICAL attempts to annhilate a nation is just one
of those things that, y'know, happens. Gee, folks, sorry we killed your
entire family, village and everyone you ever knew, but hey, that's war.
Bullfeathers!

Genocide is what Hitler intended when attempting to exterminate the Jews --
but also homosexuals, Poles, Romani, Slavs (including the 20 million Russian
civilians murdered in cold blood during Hitler's march on Moscow) and other
groups.

> In a war *armed* soldiers fight other *armed* soldiers. The atrocities that
> the civilian populations suffer are a by product, so to speak, of the *armed*
> conflict. 

So, that's just cool 'n' froody then?

> It bears repeating that the Holocaust was the systematic massacre of
> defenceless civilians.

And was NOT limited to only one race or nation of people.

> Besides, to claim that event A (the war itself) is worse than event B
> (the Holocaust) because it caused more people to die is a fallacy,
> pure and simple. It completely takes out of the account the
> perpetrators. 

The basic motivations, however, were the same. "We're perfect, you're not,
so we're going to kill you all."

> The reason the Holocaust is so unimaginably awful is
> not because millions have died in agony, it is because they were
> cold-bloodedly murdered by a state machinary, for no other reason
> than pure hate. *Thats* what makes it different from any other
> man-caused disaster.

I couldn't disagree more. It is STILL happening around the world. You could
point to literally dozens of cases of attempted and actual genocide across
the world in the years since WWII: Rwanda. The Former Yugoslavia. Tibet. And
perhaps the most unbelievably ironic case of attempted -- and continuing --
ethnic cleansing is happening where? The Palestinian entity and Occupied
Territories in Israel.

> Amanda, the point you make about the Holocaust being a non-Aryan
> thing is true, of course, but within this reservation: The Jews were
> viewed as the complete negative opposite of the Aryan race. They were
> the principle of darkness, the germ of all evil. They carried disease
> - both physical and spiritual. The hatred of Jews was virulent and
> fanatic in a special way.

I object to this last statement in the strongest possible terms. Jewish
people CANNOT claim a monopoly on being the object of Hitler's hatred. Yes,
millions of Jews died in the Holocaust. Millions of other people died as
well -- people who are NOT recognised, NOT remembered by the world, do NOT
have wealthy contingents in the West to build ethnic museums to their
Holocaust victims. As I said to Pippin yesterday in private mail, I was
shocked and outraged that not ONCE in the ENTIRE coverage of Holocaust
Memorial Day that I saw was ANY mention made of the non-Jewish deaths in the
Holocaust.

Trust me on this. I'm doing an MA in it.

--John

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From john at walton.to  Sun Feb  4 01:49:35 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 01:49:35 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN - Debate Netiquette
In-Reply-To: <95i80d+2s29@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6A265AF.B431%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 11634

>> "voicelady" <voicelady at m...> wrote:

>> Please, when involved in a debate, remember one little rule, and
>> everyone will be happy and no one's feelings get hurt.  In order to
>> make your point, do so positively - by listing the reasons that
>> uphold your argument rather than negatively - by pointing out what
>> is "wrong" with the opposing argument.  This way, it's a
>> constructive debate.

> Dai Evans wrote:
> Here you are quite wrong. To make a debate worthwhile you have to
> point out the weaknesses in the arguments of others if you are to get
> your point across. In order to present a theory/opinion it is often
> necessary to discount opposing theories/opinions to make your own
> credible. I do agree that this should be done in a way that respects
> other peoples opinions, but if there is a legitimate reason why
> another person is incorrect in an assumption, it would be to the
> detriment of the discussion not to point it out.

::runs for dinner jacket and bow tie, hurriedly puts them on and ascends to
the lectern::

Agreed. However, Messrs Speaker, The Proposition would underline that it is
very weak debating style to only point out weaknesses of or points where
your opinion differs to the "opposing" side. Activity rather than Reactivity
is the name of the game (at least it was when I did Cambridge Union Debating
as a schoolboy :D).

Moreover, Messrs Speaker, the Proposition notes that this is not truly a
debating forum. This list is a discussion list and, as such, one should
refrain from direct personal attacks upon others. This would include
denigrating others' opinions based solely on value judgments or one's own
opinion of a situation.

Thank you and good night. ::bows out::

--John

________________________________________________

John "Purple Meany" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47
=| Group Welcome Message located at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+welcomemessage.txt
=| Sing the Song of Time!
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/?action=story-read&storyid=111044

Remember: socks then shoes.
________________________________________________




From john at walton.to  Sun Feb  4 02:18:36 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 02:18:36 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Super Harry and Christ (Re: Super Harry?)
In-Reply-To: <95hmg9+ooil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6A26C7C.B436%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 11635

Pithy response to this thread:

See! I told you HP was like the Chronicles of Narnia!

--John
== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From lexac3 at usa.net  Sun Feb  4 02:54:01 2001
From: lexac3 at usa.net (Alex Corvus)
Date: 3 Feb 2001 19:54:01 MST
Subject: (veering OT) Re: This Ship stuff sounds like shojo
Message-ID: <20010204025401.4880.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11637

I didn't know if I should label this SHIP or FF, or both, or neither ...

Jim Ferer wrote:

>>I'm curious about the slash pairings we talk about here -- Ron/Harry,
Harry/Draco (!) and so on.
A lot of the ship discussion here is sounding more and more like a Japanese
phenomenon, "shojo":
<snip>
What's the dynamic for this?>>

Er, what explanation are you looking for, exactly? <g> No seriously, because I
could go on and on about this, but I don't want to if it's not the info you're
looking for. Are you asking about relationship dynamics within the slash
pairings, or are you looking for some discussion of what the general appeal
is? Or something else?

A couple of people have addressed the shounen-ai/yaoi phenomenon, which I'm
not nearly as conversant with as I am with slash (mainly info from Thorn's
site and from aestheticism.com), but I think the seeds of both phenomena are
the same. Japanese culture appears to have more of an understanding that
same-sex pairings, particularly m/m, hold considerable interest for some girls
and women, which Western culture - particularly in the US - seems to find
distinctly ... odd. If that's what you're interested in, I can elaborate on a
number of reasons I think the appeal is there, from natural wiring in the
lizardbrain, to explorations of homosocial bonding in source materials, to
deconstruction of male sexuality, to the desire to see queer characters in
media works, to sexual politics in art.

Firebolt mentioned the seme/uke component of shounen-ai/yaoi, and while I
agree that slash has less formally structured relationships, I do think
there's a tendency to lock characters into dynamics that resemble the seme/uke
dynamic. You can see general trends, in a lot of cases, of making one partner
the alpha partner and the other the beta. To bring this back on topic, there's
lots of slash fanfiction out there that makes Lupin the passive partner to
Black, that makes Draco the passive partner to Harry, both emotionally and in
... well, in the sexual mechanics, to be somewhat blunt. Not all slash does
this, but it's enough of a trend to be noticeable. In egregious cases, the
passive partner ends up getting "femmed" to a degree that makes me,
personally, gnash my teeth and tear out my hair.

And then there's the whole discussion of people who are attracted to buddy
pairings (Ron/Harry) as opposed to those attracted to antagonistic pairings
(Harry/Draco) ...

G'head, ask. I could run my mouth about this to considerable length. <g>

Alexa,
holding down the Ron/Draco fort
(Harry? Who's that?)


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1



From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  4 02:45:08 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 21:45:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron/Sirius parallels
References: <95i4cn+ee3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f201c08e54$7dd238a0$7d4cd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11639


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimberly" <moongirlk at yahoo.com>




> But then we go back to the thing that I've been trying to explain.
> I'm not interested in the least in who was the wronged party, only in
> what may or may not have motivated Sirius, and the facts we have are:
>
> -Snape did not get along with James/Sirius et al
> -Lupin was in werewolf mode.
> -Sirius told Snape how to get past the Womping Willow to where Lupin
> was.
> -By all accounts the above was a prank, but nobody makes motivation
> 100% clear.
> -James saw the danger in what was happening and stopped Snape from
> getting hurt.
> All of the above points seem to be accepted by all parties involved.
> What I was trying to do was extrapolate possible reasons for what
> Sirius did.  I came up with the options I mentioned previously, and
> of all of them I chose anger/hot-headedness as (in my opinion) the
> most reasonable and least heinous of the possibilities.  I wasn't
> trying to say poor defenseless Snape was attacked by horrible Sirius,
> just that the act of sending Snape after Lupin occurred, by all
> accounts, and the most reasonable explanation I could come up with
> was a rash or angry decision.

My take on the Snape / Sirius prank was that Snape had been nosing around
trying to find out where Lupin went every month and what James, Sirius, and
Peter were doing with him. In my mind at some point Sirius said to
himself...ok, Snape wants to know where Lupin goes, I'll tell him where
Lupin goes.  In Sirius' addled teenage mind it was Snapes fault he almost
got himself wolved.  Sirius simply gave him the information.  No one forced
Snape to *do* anything with the information.  Sirius wasn't virulently angry
with Snape.  It was an ill considered act for sure.  Sirius knew full well
(way down in the back of his brain) that Snape would use the information and
continue to nose around where he wasn't welcome.  I don't think Sirius
really thought through the consequences of that decision.  Just like he
didn't really think through the consequences of his decision not to be a
secret keeper.

Its like the kids who decide to throw rocks off an overpass onto cars that
pass underneath.  They start small and its harmless, then they get a bit
bigger and a bit bigger roock and before they think about it someone is
killed by a rock smashing into their car.  The kids did not set out to kill
anyone, they just didn't think all the way through their actions to the
ultimate consequence.  Isn't this a prime characteristic of adolescent boys
in particular?

I missed the post that listed the possible motivations, but it doesn't seem
to me that the motivation was particularly heinous or that the prank
necessarliy was a rash or angry action.  More of a malicious challenge.
Sirius is challenging Snape to continue to nose around in their business and
suffer the consequences of his nosiness.



>
> I said:
> > > I may be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure he says in PoA
> that
> > > he went looking for him, and that he wanted to kill him, but that
> > > Peter was too quick for him.  Can anyone tell me if I've made > >
> > >that up in my head?  It wouldn't be the first time, I admit.  But
> > >even if I got that wrong, as I understand it Sirius wasn't much of
> > >a suspect before Pettigrew created the scene, cried out that he'd
> > >betrayed James and Lily and then was 'killed' by him.
> >
>
> Penny:
> > Well, I think it's reasonable to assume that he *would* have been a
> > prime suspect, even absent that scene with Pettigrew & the murders
> of
> > the muggles.  At *that* point, Dumbledore and Remus (and presumably
> most
> > anyone else with any knowledge of the situation) thinks Black was
> the
> > Secret-Keeper.
>
> Ok, but what about my primary point?  I leant out my books, so I'm
> relying on my memory, which tends to get 'creative' on me all the
> time.  Did I imagine the part about Sirius saying he wanted/intended
> to kill Pettigrew?
>

>From what I could find Sirius does say he meant to kill Pettigrew after
Pettigrew betrayed James and Lily.  This fits with Remus and Sirius'
statement that if V didn't kill Pettigrew they would.  So I don't think this
is necessarily a piece of eveidence that Sirius is an irrationally
hot-tempered guy.  He may very well be, but he has quite a number of reasons
for wanting Pettigrew dead that night.  #1 Pettigrew betrayed James and Lily
(vengence) and Sirius, #2 He was framed as the secret-keeper  (justice,
although if he thinks about it, it would be better for Sirius if he kept
Pettigrew alive) #3 Pettigrew was a spy for V...which was enough to qualify
Pettigrew as a target for Remus *and* Sirius (bit of vigilante).  While all
of this points to some not so great personality traits of Sirius, keep in
mind that Sirius was in a state of shock after seeing the Potter house in
rubble and probably was not significantly more mentally healthy after a 12
years of imposed depression and 1 year of barely surviving in the outside
world.

I know I'm jumping into the middle of this thread, but thought I'd add my 2
knuts.

carole










From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Feb  4 03:14:30 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 03:14:30 -0000
Subject: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <B6A261D8.B42D%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <95ihem+omgq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11640

Pippin takes a deep breath and counts to ten...
	This is what happens when the meaning of the word 'Holocaust' is 
expanded beyond  its original historical context. It becomes a synonym 
for any state sponsored activity the speaker would like to characterize 
as vicious rascism. At that point it's  just name-calling.  And I'm 
very uncomfortable with it.
Pippin
	







From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 03:34:02 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 03:34:02 
Subject: OT--Yet Another Fanfiction List
Message-ID: <F134eKg1bzuDwP6SAH200004a9b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11641

:::tiptoes onto the list, trying not to awake the sleeping Mod Squad:::

Shh!

*Nox.*

:::whispering from under her Invisibility Cloak:::
Some of the newer fanfic writers are preparing to throw an insane 
post-Hogwarts fanfic house party on (yet another) fanfic posting-distrib and 
discussion list.  Seven grownup authors will be featured, including Draco 
Crusader Heidi Tandy (A Surfeit of Curses), Post-Hogwarts Wizarding 
Education Advocate Crazy Ivan a.k.a. Mod Squad Member John Walton (Harry 
Potter and the Song of Time), and a weird loud tall lady who uses poor 
cardboard-character-in-canon Angelina Johnson as her unwitting Mary Sue and 
talk show host-cum-sleuth (Trouble in Paradise and planned sequels).

Since we're new in the neighborhood, drop by and bring us a plate of treacle 
tarts or something, will you?  Here's our address:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

More like "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" than any Biblical Eden, 
but there you have it.

:::tiptoes away under her Invisibility Cloak:::

*Lumos.*

:::tiptoes off list again, running a feather under each member of the Mod 
Squad's noses... they all wake up, wondering why they're sneezing:::

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Feb  4 03:53:25 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 03:53:25 -0000
Subject: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <B6A261D8.B42D%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <95ijnl+1gbr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11642

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> naama_gat at h... wrote:


>I object to this last statement in the strongest possible terms. 
Jewish
>people CANNOT claim a monopoly on being the object of Hitler's 
hatred. Yes,
>millions of Jews died in the Holocaust. Millions of other people 
died as
>well -- people who are NOT recognised, NOT remembered by the world, 
do NOT
>have wealthy contingents in the West to build ethnic museums to their
>Holocaust victims. As I said to Pippin yesterday in private mail, I 
was
>shocked and outraged that not ONCE in the ENTIRE coverage of 
Holocaust
>Memorial Day that I saw was ANY mention made of the non-Jewish 
deaths in the
>Holocaust.

Oh great.  Affirmative Action comes to Holocaust studies.  We must 
endeavor to portray Mr. Hitler as an Equal-Opportunity Offender, who 
thoughtfully desired  to equally persecute and exterminate every  
righteous minority group, without respect to their Non-Aryan race, 
creed or color. 

While taking nothing away from the suffering of the other victims of 
the Holocaust, I think it is clear that the Jewish people served a 
unique role in the Nazi persecution.  They, and they alone were the 
only significant ethnic group marked for complete and total 
extermination by Nazi ideology. The Slavs, Poles, and other national 
groups were to be subjected and enslaved, but  not eliminated.  Gays 
were only sporadically persecuted, as a good number of high ranking 
Nazis were queer to the bone.  It may be noted that Gypsies  and 
Jehovah's Witnesses were also been marked for total elimination, but 
both their population and cultural impact was quite insignificant 
compared to the Jews.  Ridding Europe of its Gypsies or JWs  could 
have been easily accomplished with a few mass arrests; it was hardly 
worth the bother of the constructing Auschwitz and Buchenwald, 
those "ingeniously devised habitations of death"

As Lucy Dawidowicz demonstrated in her monumental study The War 
Against the Jews (1975), Hitler's anti-Semitism was the *fons et 
origo* of the Nazi Party. Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's defeat 
in WWI and as early as 1918 ? long before anyone had any idea who he 
was, and vowed to eradicate them on behalf of the German nation.  The 
impetus of the Nazi Party as it soared to increasing prominence in 
the 1920s and early 30s was its fervent anti-Semitism, which struck a 
strong responsive chord in the German people.  Milton Himmelfarb 
wrote a 1984 essay titled "No Hitler, No Holocaust," arguing against 
the "impersonal forces" theory of history,   We might similarly 
declare, No Anti-Semitism, No Hitler, No Holocaust

Again, this is not to minimize the sufferings of other non-Semitic 
Nazi victims. But the vast majority of them were the usual victims of 
any war, or groups who happened to be in the way. as opposed to a 
systematic ideologically-based war against one's own people. 

   - CMC





From litalex at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 05:18:26 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 21:18:26 -0800
Subject: (slash) ships, slash FF in general, yaoi anime
References: <20010204025401.4880.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <018701c08e69$e7b0ae40$a810eda9@y1j2s0>

No: HPFGUIDX 11643

Hello,

Alexa wrote:
> I didn't know if I should label this SHIP or FF, or both, or neither ...

Neither do I.  So, <shrug>.

> ... well, in the sexual mechanics, to be somewhat blunt. Not all slash
does
> this, but it's enough of a trend to be noticeable. In egregious cases, the
> passive partner ends up getting "femmed" to a degree that makes me,
> personally, gnash my teeth and tear out my hair.

I have theories about it, too, but to explain it would be a discussion about
slash fanfiction and yaoi/shounen-ai, and the different degrees of sexism in
Japan and USA.  Which would bring it extremely off topic.  Alexa, are you on
FCA-L?  Care to bring this discussion over there?  Or maybe our views
regarding this particular topic would be too similar...  I do definitely
recall a long, long discussion about yaoi vs. slash in amla.

Actually, the fact that so many HP slash fans are also interested in yaoi is
in itself quite interesting.  I don't recall seeing that high a number of
anime fans in most other slash fandoms.  Perhaps it's the supposed age group
of the fans?  Or perhaps it's the fantastical feel of the HP novels (despite
the many realistic aspects).  I think many fans of Ricean vamps are also
interested in anime, too.  I wonder if it's a trend...

> holding down the Ron/Draco fort
> (Harry? Who's that?)

That's very interesting, 'cause Harry is, by far, my favorite character, but
I do like the idea of Ron/Draco much better than Ron/Harry or the ship of my
professed interest, Harry/Draco.




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 05:07:14 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 05:07:14 -0000
Subject: OT--Holocaust thing
In-Reply-To: <95ijnl+1gbr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95io22+fsu0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11645

<snip>

I'm not a moderator....so take this with a grain of salt. 
But I personally believe that this WWII/Holocaust discussion is 
rapidly going *far* off topic and should be taken to email in the 
near future. 

Charmian




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 05:26:14 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 05:26:14 -0000
Subject: Draco  - Snape - Death Eaters - My Fanfic
In-Reply-To: <3A7CA957.24CF64EE@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <95ip5m+p03u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11646

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
<snip>
> 
> I'm bothered by scene because Draco is being SO CHILDISH in it. 
Gloating
> loudly about the Dark Lord being back when his family's is still
> pretending, for security reasons, to be against the Dark Lord (which
> will do as an explanation for sending Draco back to Hogwarts). 
Saying
> 'first' and then correcting himself -- I don't spend much time with
> children, but that strikes me as more 10 year old than 14 year old, 
and
> doesn't omen well for him maturing enough to make his own decision 
which
> side to be on.

Agree with you there. 
Indeed, this does seem to give lie to the idea that Draco is 
especially intelligent. Or maybe he is smart, but lacks common sense. 
Why should he go around telling everyone that he is a supporter of 
the Dark Lord? Even his father warns him that it would be imprudent 
(IIRC) to remain less than fond of Harry. For someone who's supposed 
to be cunning, Draco's plots are rather transparent. I mean, if you 
really are very Machiavellian and ambitious, you don't give away your 
hostile intentions to your enemies. 

> 
> Someone else asked whether the Death Eaters knew that their Dark 
Lord
> was a Halfblood. I guess they did, as Barty Junior said that he and 
the
> Dark Lord had in common having had very unsatisfactory fathers, 
being
> named after them, and having killed them. I wonder how the ones 
whose
> motive was that they cared about pedigrees rationalized that?

'Twas I. :) Well, there is the perspective that many are in for it 
not so much for the anti-Muggleness, but because they are ambitious 
as well, and support Voldemort because he is the strongest. It could 
be also that they rationalize that his descent from Slytherin cancels 
out everything else. Re:  the Diggorys and Draco's reaction, remember 
what Draco said about there being the "right sort" of purebloods and 
not. (It seems rather incredible that there are that many purebloods 
left anyway, given the amount of muggles around Hogwarts)
> 
<snape speculation>
> 
> If other Death Eaters know that Snape not only testified against 
them,
> but was spying against them BEFORE the Dark Lord fell, some of them 
who
> are still on the loose may be serious enough about wanting revenge 
that
> Hogwarts is the only safe place for him to be. In that regard, have 
we
> ever seen him go even to Hogmeade?

No, but Harry has no idea what happens to the teachers during the 
summer, for example (hey, that would be a cool fanfic. Explain what 
all the rest of the cast [we know what Harry and Ron, and to some 
extent Hermione do] does during the summer), nor does he go into 
Hogsmeade enough for us, IMHO, to really draw any conclusions for it. 
It's a good theory though; but it seems like most of those DEs still 
loose weren't very passionate about the cause, not enough to risk 
their own hides by assassinating a known double-agent, anyway. 

<snip>
> 
> One of the trial scenes shown in the Pensieve -- IIRC the one where
> Karkaroff tried to buy his release from Azkaban by turning in his
> friends -- shows Snape being accused and Dumbledore rising in open 
court
> to vouch for Snape, that he had turned against the Dark Side and 
been a
> useful spy to the Light Side while the Dark Lord was still in power.
> Everyone in the courtroom heard, which may have included Rita 
Skeeter
> (Harry saw her in at least one Pensieve trial scene) or some other
> journalist. Even if no journalist published that information, people
> gossip and word gets around: how could the escaped Death Eaters NOT 
know
> that Snape was the spy against them?

Yes. It does seem odd that this fact is not more generally known. 
Maybe that's why all the other teachers don't dislike Snape. 

<snip>

Charmian




From kathleen at carr.org  Sun Feb  4 05:05:11 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 00:05:11 -0500
Subject: SHIP: Ship Happens
Message-ID: <200102040555.f145txC14840@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11647

Hi all!  Captain Kathy sailing in from Annapolis Harbor, where I just got to 
meet Zsenya and B. Bennett in person!  I have to say it was very weird to be 
able to talk Harry Potter to real live grown-ups.  Both of them are just as 
nice in person as they are online.  (Hi guys!)

Firoza wrote:
>Hello again,Just a quick delurk here. Kathy/Elanor thank you for the welcome
>(I just finished Chapter 12 of your wonderful fic and it was amazing as
>usual!).

<blushes> Awww, gee, thanks Firoza!  Glad you are enjoying it!  I'm having a 
ball writing it so it's nice to know other people are enjoying it too.  And 
enjoy your stay on our Good Ship!


As for the whole shipping-debate of late, I am in such a good mood that I 
should probably just leave this thread alone, but there are several things in 
recent posts I feel the need to respond to, so bear with me.

Cassie wrote (of the Affirmations/"R/H Ship Rules"):
>Even if they are joking, they do serve to further polarize us into
>opposing camps. Which, frankly, is beginning to be depressing. To me,
>anyway.

Actually, Cassie, I am finding it depressing as well.  But I don't see how 
jokingly stating a position is any different or more divisive than teasingly 
referring to other camps as "misguided", etc.  I realize that the inclusion of 
the word "further" in your post indicates that you were referring to more than 
just the most recent hoopla, which is fortunate, as I would rather resent the 
implication that either Zsenya or I would somehow "polarize" the group.

Penny wrote:
>But, in any case, my basic point is
>that I have the perception that everyone thinks it's fine to criticize
>most any character, except Ron.  Ron seems to be "off-limits" in the
>minds of some people.  I just find that odd -- that's all.

And, again, I don't see that at all.  I've already explained why, so I won't 
go into it again.  Perhaps this will have to be another one of those areas 
where we agree to disagree. :)

Penny again:
>Isn't the number one R/H Daily Affirmation: "Harry and Hermione is a
>RIDICULOUS IMPOSSIBILITY."  Is this *not* bashing my opinion?  It's >not
>wildly important mind you -- just a question.  It also sounds more >like
>"Keep your opinions but don't express them." (freedom of speech & all
>that but we'll kick you off if you bash a Weasley).

First of all, what if I do hold the above opinion regarding H/H?  Does the 
fact that I state it automatically bash your opinion?  And again, I point out 
that these are *tongue-in-cheek*, very similar to the "little dinghy" and such 
comments that have been posted here about the Good Ship R/H.

Penny again:
>You're the Captain & all, but there are lots of other
>R/H shipmates who do seem to regard it as slander if one even admits
>that there's a possibility that Ron could unwittingly betray Harry
>(never mind what they would think about the possibility for an
>intentional betrayal).

I still have not seen evidence of this.  Most R/H-ers, who tend to love Ron, 
(as it kind of comes with the territory) may not want to consider the 
possibility (I myself get slightly nauseous at the thought!<g>) but I haven't 
seen the reaction you're describing.  At least, that's my experience.  
Granted, I haven't seen every message ever posted to every group on the 
subject, but I feel the need to defend the R/H-ers on this list as the 
fair-minded individuals they are.  I don't think any of them would be here if 
they didn't value other opinions and interpretations.

Zsenya wrote:
>I just wanted to point out that SugarQuill is
>not the "anti-HP4GU web site" or the "We love Ron unconditionally"
>website.  It's just a very exciting and fun project that two friends
>started two months ago and are very happy about.

Thank you for posting this, Zsenya.  I realize that it was my own mention of 
SugarQuill's Daily Affirmations that dragged you into this in the first place, 
and I apologize for that, though I am still not quite sure how my completely 
light-hearted comments started all this controversy.  (And by the way, now 
that I have met her in person, I can say that Zsenya is just as intelligent, 
thoughtful, and down-to-earth in real life as in her posts here. <waves to 
Zsenya>)

Penny wrote:
>It seemed to me that Kathy was adopting the SugarQuill Daily
>Affirmations on the Good Ship R/H, which does sail waters near & around
>HPforGrownups from time to time.  <g>  I only meant to point out that in
>the interests of "Inter-ship cooperation" *on this group,* these Daily
>Affirmations seemed a bit unwelcoming.  That's *all* I ever intended to
>say -- I think it's gotten way misunderstood at some point along the way
>(as these subjects are wont to do).

You got that last part right!  But seriously, I still don't understand how the 
just-in-fun "Rules and regulations" are any different from the teasing zingers 
that H/H-ers throw out all the time (or for that matter, other teasing zingers 
which R/H-ers throw out).  (And, remember, Penny, you were the one who asked 
for clarification of the "denigration" clause, I was just responding to your 
request <g>).

Penny:
>Kathy & I have both been trying to encourage the "Shipping" debates on
>this group to take a more light-hearted approach.  So, I was
>attempting to jokingly point out that having "Rules/Regs" aboard the
>Good Ship R/H was a bit off-putting to the goals of light-hearted in
>tone shipping debates & inter-ship cooperation.

As to the first sentence: yay! We agree on something!  (That brings it up to, 
what? 3? <g>)
As to the second, see above.  To horribly quote Snape out of context: "I see 
no difference."

Penny:
>I hope this will clear things up a bit!

As do I.  As I am beginning to find this topic a bit exhausting, this will 
hopefully be my last post on it (unless, of course, someone says something 
which leaves me unable to keep my mouth shut.  What, me?  Never. <g>)

All that said, I just want to reiterate how much I have been enjoying the 
whole ship-metaphor thread (it's giving me a chance to brush up on my nautical 
lingo, if nothing else).  I am sorry if this whole debate has put a sour taste 
in some people's mouths about it, particularly as I am still not quite sure 
what happened.

I, for one, will continue to man the helm of the Good Ship R/H with glee, 
welcoming aboard anyone who'd like to visit or enlist, and waving merrily 
across the waters to those on the decks of the SS H/H.


Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  4 06:19:40 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 22:19:40 -0800
Subject: Not a Harry Dream
Message-ID: <3A7CF47B.BE9F214C@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11648

Unlike others, I STILL haven't dreamed about the Harryverse.  But I did
think up some things while in the process of falling asleep last night.
I meant to include them in one of my previous two posts, but forgot.

The Malfoy family arms (this is all according to ME): the device is not
Slytherin's green field and silver serpent, but it is similar: on a
silver field, a green serpent twining around a black sword and dripping
venom on it. The supporters are (dexter) a man all covered with flames
(good, detailed, art shows the look of agony on his face: he's being
burnt alive. More careless depictions just look like a devil) and
(sinister) an angel -- you know, white feathery wings, white robe,
handsome face, blond hair -- and careful depiction shows that the dagger
in his hand is dripping blood from having just stabbed someone's back.
I'm not sure about the crest (the image on top of the helmet) and the
motto. Suggestions?

While at it, I decided that the old and distinguished Snape family also
claims to be descended from Salazar Slytherin, via Slytherin having
seduced one of Hufflepuff's students, who was as beautiful as she was
stupid. When she was expelled from school for being pregnant, she
refused to tell who was the father. Her family was very angry with her
but still tried to find SOMEONE willing to marry her, and was lucky
enough to find an ugly but rich old man who had a large family of sons
from his first wife, and therefore did not need a faithful wife to give
him heirs, but wanted a beautiful concubine for his lechery.  The little
girl was named Salacia and grew up with the rich old man as her
stepfather, and grew up to be as beautiful as her mother and as
intelligent as her biological father. When she had reached the age to
start falling in love, a travellin' man came along, a wizard of fortune
named Severus. Salacia and Severus fell in love, forged a will making
her the heir of her stepfather, killed the old man (who deserved it),
killed any other family members who were inclined to contest the
(forged) will, got married, and had a son named Salazar, thus beginning
a thousand year tradition of Snape first born sons being named
alternately Salazar and Severus. The family name "Snape" came from Snape
Farm, the part of the estate that Severus II son of Salazar son of
Salacia kept for himself when dividing the property with his siblings...
When our Severus got old enough (7 or 8 years old) to read the big
ancient books in his father's library, he found that what his parents
had told him (above) was the cleaned-up version.  There was a lot more
incest and fratricide in the tale as told in those books. This confirmed
the theory he had already formed, that his ancestors were as loathsome
as his parents.

Just being prosperous farmers with a lot of books used not to be enough
to deserve a coat of arms. The Snapes gave themselves one that is not
only unofficial, but against the color rules: Slytherin's silver serpent
on a black saltire (an X cross) on a green field. Once I consulted a
dictionary and found that 'saltire', like 'saltation', comes from the
Latin word for 'to jump'.

Many many thanks to Amanda for explaining Device, Supporters, Crest, and
Motto to the multitudes. Amanda, I think that the parti-colored
backgrounds of the House banners shown on the calendar are a poor
ignorant American's take on 'diapering', which I recall Fox-Davies
having explained as enlivening a solid color field with a small, subtle,
repeat design, like little tiny flowers on a field vert.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Feb  4 07:10:03 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 07:10:03 -0000
Subject: Unsappiness (was R/H, H/G,...)
In-Reply-To: <95boq0+ahsl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95iv8b+hbpq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11649

>Ffion wrote:
> In answer to your thoughts on the possible pairings off in HP - I 
> really can't decide whether JKR will go for the obvious 
Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, since this is what we could be led to 
expect - and she is great at taking the story on a path that isn't 
really possible to guess [well, maybe that's just me!].  However, 
there is obviously something between Ron and Hermione that'll have to 
be addressed in some way if love/relationships are tobe introduced 
properly in HP.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I absolutely agree with both points you make here.  Ideally, it would 
be the best to me if JKR goes in a way NONE of us expect with the 
relationships.  And, I wouldn't be surprised if she has R/H happen in 
canon and not 'work out'.  I'll be fine however she handles things, 
so long as her story stays true...

>Ffion:
> I also agree that Ginny will become a more rounded character - 
> perhaps she isn't so much now because we might see her [in terms of 
> importance] through Harry's eyes - and being his friend's little 
> sister, she isn't that important.  but as she gets older  does 
> something perhaps to prove herself as not being just a little 
sister [who was naive and had to be rescued by Harry], his 
interest/respect for her will grow and so we, the reader, will have 
the opportunity of getting to know her better too - and I think 
she'll turn out to be a fully-rounded character, as are H/R/H - and 
not a cliche of any kind [a la Bagman/Lockhart] - she will do 
something brave/courageous, I'm sure ot it.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I do expect this, too.  And, I definitely expect much of Ginny's 
development and 'maturing' to happen in book #5.  Even if 
her 'pagetime' doesn't increase significantly in the next book, what 
we do see of her will, I expect, show her character's development.

>Ffion:
> There is also, of course, the old 'red hair' arguement on ginny's 
> side - a la Lily/James - but will the paralels witht he that 
> generation really be that similar?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Good question.  I can see JKR going that way, but I wouldn't say she 
absolutely will.  (That was certainly a 'firm maybe', wasn't it? <g>)
 
>Ffion:
> but, as you say, I think we can trust JKR not to be too soppy or 
> obvious about what's going on - partly I suppose because she's 
aware that quite young children are reading these books.  
> I just hope that, whatever it is, it will be a satisfactory ending  
> a point which I am dreading terribly!  To have nothing else to look 
> forward to and speculate about with Harry will be quite awful! 
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  

Lol, same here.  I'm really hoping she'll have the HP withdrawals 
that we do, and realize she just HAS to continue... ;o]

> Kelley wrote:
> <lots of good stuff) To me, these situations were handled with 
> a minimum of sap, so I'm thinking that if big-happy-family is where 
> this will all end up, JKR certainly won't choose that time to go 
> heavy on the saccharine. <lots more good stuff>
>
>Amy Z. wrote: 
> Right on, Kelley.
> Lots of H/Hers don't want to see R/H because OBHWF (that's One Big 
> Happy Weasley Family, newbies) is too sappy/cliched.
> Lots of R/Hers don't want to see H/H because HGTG (Hero Gets the 
Girl) is too sappy/cliched.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

LOL, thanks Amy, glad to hear I'm not alone!  When I first the H/H 
arguments, HGTG is exactly what I thought.  That has to be just as 
cliched as OBHF, if not more so.

> Amy Z.: 
> Fear not, shippers and sap-o-phobes of all descriptions!  Let us go 
> boldly forth in the faith that our Jo will resist cliche, whatever 
> romances happen or fail to happen.  We can all relax and enjoy this 
> cruise and know that she'll write whatever she writes with 
> that witching combination of unpredictability and inevitability 
that she's brought to so many twists *and* emotional scenes so far.<<<

Hear, hear!  I'll say this again, my greatest hope is for an 
ending/wrap-up that none of us see coming.  Crossing fingers....

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Feb  4 08:06:43 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 08:06:43 -0000
Subject: R/H, H/G, OBHWF, M-O-U-S-E
In-Reply-To: <95aao2+57h5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95j2ij+bbt0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11650

> I wrote:
> Yes, Ginny is not  developed yet.  There are three books to go, 
> though, guys.  Moody  wasn't well-developed before GoF in which he 
> figured very strongly.    Granted that was a long book, JKR had 
> plenty of space in which to   develop him.  I still contend that 
all it will take to make Ginny a  well-developed character is one 
book.  She's had more 'page-time'  than Cho, yet we all saw her as a 
> romantic interest for Harry, albeit  just a crush in which he 
didn't know anything about her."  
> 
> Cassie wrote:
> *blinks* I'm confused. Moody wasn't well-developed before GoF 
because he was never mentioned before GoF, IIRC. Am I wrong? There's 
a difference between a character who is present and undeveloped and a 
> character who just doesn't exist at all.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I don't remember him being mentioned 'til GoF, either; I just meant 
that he went from zero to sixty pretty quickly.  Whether a character 
has been introduced and just not developed yet, or brand new to the 
series and suddenly central to the story line, development isn't much 
problem for JKR.  Maybe Cedric would've been a better example than 
Moody...

> Cassie:
> I simply hope that if Ginny is to wind up as the romantic interest 
of our hero, JKR will develop her further, give her a personality and 
> some interesting things to do. I'm not saying JKR doesn't have 
plenty of time to do this, nor am I saying she won't. I'd think most 
H/H shippers would agree with me. If Ginny is to be with Harry, she 
needs more character development. That's all. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 
Oh, heck, yeah, Cassie.  I would bet that most of us would agree with 
that, shipper or no.  I definitely think she'd have to be far more 
developed to make this pairing plausible.

>Cassie:
> I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has feeling 
> for Ginny -- if anything he pretty consciously shuts her out of the 
> Trio); as for G/H, although it is blindingly obvious that Ginny 
likes Harry, I'm not sure what significance to gift that with. <<<<<<<

Agree, nothing in canon gives the slightest clue that he likes her.  
I just think with the monster-crush Ginny has on him, the seeds have 
been sown, basically.

>Cassie:
> After all, Harry likes Cho and I'm fairly sure that that's not 
going to go anywhere. (*crosses fingers and prays.*)<<<<<<<<<<<
 
Hehheh, I'm with you there.  I didn't have anything against Cho when 
she was first introduced, still don't really; I just think that ship 
has sailed, so to speak, regardless of the Cedric angle.

><Kelly wrote: "I also strongly contend that if anyone can make OBHWF 
> happen without  sap, it's JKR.  Cliche, maybe; but perhaps this 
> scenario will serve her purposes.  We don't know yet.  The 
characters seem ripe with cliched characteristics to me, so I 
wouldn't put any cliche past JKR. "<><><><><><><><><><>
> 
>Cassie:
> I wonder how happy she'd be to hear that you wouldn't put any 
cliche past her? <g> Yikes. I'm not sure I agree that the characters 
are ripe with cliched characteristics. There is a difference between 
> cliches and archetypes, and it appears to me more that JKR enjoys 
> toying with archetypes, postmodernly, than than she enjoys 
wallowing in cliches and platitudes.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Haha, well okay; let's say I agree that she tweaks archetypes, but 
seems to me that the line between archetypes and stereotypes (and 
cliches) is a fine one.  I certainly don't think she wallows in 
cliches and platitudes, though I admit I am one of those who'd like 
to see her expand her presentation of adult female characters.  When 
she writes an archetype character behaving or thinking in a way that 
doesn't correspond with their archetype, I applaud.  But, very often 
they do behave as you would expect.  Not that they never should 
behave this way; how else could it be done?  The behavior that 
follows the archetypal expectations *can* delve into cliche, however, 
and, for the most part, she does avoid this.  Not every time, 
though... ;o]  (Which is all I meant by saying 'I wouldn't put any 
cliche past her...')(Just reread what I just wrote--not too 
convoluted, right? <HA!>)

> Cassie:
>As for OBHWF, the whole argument is a bit silly since it all seems 
to center around "Ron marries Hermione, Harry marries Ginny." At the 
end of the series, Ginny will be all of 
> sixteen. Nobody's marrying anyone. (I hope.)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Michelle wrote:
> > In the UK, I believe it is still legal to marry at 16 with 
parental consent. 16 is the age where it's legal to have sex in this 
country anyway, so Harry marrying Ginny is quite feasible.
> 
> Cassie: 
> It's feasible *legally* perhaps, but still IMHO *extremely* 
unlikely.  Ginny would be married and still in school at Hogwarts. 
*shudders with horror at the idea of a "Ginny and Harry Move Off 
Campus Into Special Housing" subplot.* <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hahahaha!  Oh good grief, I hope not.  Hmm, if I imagine those 
characters married, it's the same way as the H/H-ers, as older 
adults.  I picture JKR either having the series end when the school 
year ends, the way the other books have done, and just giving 
clues/hints as to what the future holds for the characters; or, 
alternatively, she tags on an epilogue going some time into their 
future showing who's with whom, what they ended up doing, etc.  But, 
for now, I just feel she'll go with those pairings (R/H, Ha/G), 
though, OoP may change all that.  I actually wouldn't mind if it did; 
I'm ready for a curveball.  After learning about the wand-order 
mistake, which disappointed me immensely to learn was -just- a 
mistake, I started to feel my expectations were too high for the rest 
of the series.  A curveball would take care of that nicely, though...

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Feb  4 09:58:15 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 09:58:15 -0000
Subject: ships, Ron, etc.
In-Reply-To: <95b2jd+g4u0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95j93n+m910@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11651

Actually, to clarify, the post Cassie is replying to here was 
Kathy's.  (Too much 'K' confusion around here, eh? <g>)  I went 
through and changed the 'Kelleys' to 'Kathys', and added a few 
thoughts of my own... 
____________________________________________________________
> Kathy: Just curious, where do you see this unfair criticism being 
dished out by the R/H crowd?  (SNIP)Anyway, the point is, R/H-ers 
tend to be very  protective of Ron.  He's our guy.  Anyone is, of 
course, free to say whatever they want about any of the characters.  
Just don't expect us to like it or agree with you. <> In the 
meantime, I won't go  aboard the SS H/H and start telling you how 
boring I find Harry.  Bottom line is, if you're happy  on your ship, 
no one's forcing you to visit other ones.  But if do go  visiting, be 
nice and follow local custom.:)
>
> Cassie: 
> But I don't actually think Penny would mind if you did come aboard 
> the H/H and announce Harry was boring. It's your business if you 
find Harry boring (although suffering through a series of books about 
him, from his POV, must be tedious for you.) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Here's me:
Hmm, I find Harry a bit dull as an individual character, myself.  
He's a good guy, noble, cares about his friends, is brave, etc., but 
he just doesn't seem to have much of a personality, IMO .  There's 
something of a void there, to me.  And, even though the series is 
from his POV, we are seeing what's interesting in the other 
characters, plus the whole story that his dull little self is 
immersed in... ;o]

> > Cassie said:
> > >I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has 
feeling for Ginny 
> >Kathy: 
> >And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that doesn't 
stop people  from believing in H/H either.
>Cassie: 
> And I see no evidence that Hermione likes Ron, but that doesn't 
stop people from believing in R/H.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Me:  Hey, you guys, shhhh!  All you're doing is strengthening FITD.  
Don't do ~that~...
 
> Kathy: That said, I must say with reluctance that I think it far 
more likely (and it  pains me greatly to say this) that Ron will not 
make it to the end of Book 7  alive.  We have already seen a few 
instances where he willingly "sacrificed"  himself for Harry, and I 
suspect there's some foreshadowing there.  (And also  very poignantly 
in the fact that Ron was the thing Harry would miss the most.)  
> 
> Cassie:
> <g> I wonder if this death-prediction thing is an indicator of who 
> our favorite characters are? Well, of course it is. I worry all the 
> time that something will happen to Harry, that he will die in the 
end of Book 7, wheras I remain convinced that Ron will survive, 
probably because I wouldn't mind as much if he didn't. <eg> (As much, 
people.  I didn't say I wouldn't mind at all. I don't hate Ron, he's 
just maybe 8th on my list, that's all.)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Me again:  I've worried about both characters.  I am more concerned 
about Ron, but only because I would really be stunned if JKR 'kills 
off' Harry, the main character.  She knows how kids love these books 
and Harry; she has to realize how heartbroken kids would be if 
the 'hero' died after this long, difficult battle with evil.  What 
sort of message would -that- be?  "See kids, this is how bad evil 
really is, so don't try to fight it; you'll just die anyway..."  Not 
to mention, "You kids with really unhappy lives like Harry's--well 
don't be too sad; he had some good times, didn't he?  You might have 
some, too!"

My thoughts about Ron going bad:  I agree with Kathy's points about 
Ron's love for his friends.  Just for that, I don't believe he would 
betray Harry.  I do worry this though:  Ron is not good at resisting 
Imperius.  (Already see where I'm going? <g>)  What if he's 
controlled to betray, and it's under the guise of him doing it for 
power, glory, and riches?  Could be convincing enough that H and H et 
al believe it, at least for a while.  They would think he'd really 
gone over, because his 'reasons' would be things he's said many times 
he'd like to have (money, what he saw in Erised, etc.).  Eventually, 
Herm or Harry would remember how bad Ron is at fighting Imperius, and 
realize that is what's going on.  All the factors in this theory are 
things we've already been introduced to...  Thoughts here?

Kelley  




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 12:26:56 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 12:26:56 -0000
Subject: OT on Arendt/banality of evil 
In-Reply-To: <F195sQtgTIFprhMOgRG00003d37@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95jhqg+skj2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11652

> One started with Hannah Arendt and concerns "the banality of evil." 
> According to this view, those who committed the crimes were cogs in 
a 
> bureaucracy, and were too brainwashed or too dedicated to their jobs 
and 
> country fully to realize how evil the bureaucracy's ends were.
> 

This may indeed be a prominent view, but if it is said to have been 
held by Arendt herself (I'm not sure if that's what you are saying) I 
humbly differ.  Arendt did not describe Eichmann as unaware of the 
evil of the ends he made possible.  Quite the contrary--she showed 
that he did know it (he helped PLAN the "final solution," after 
all--he was very high up in Nazi leadership) and yet managed to sqaure 
it, in his own mind, with being a moral person.  Her book on Eichmann 
was extremely controversial because people thought she was excusing 
Eichmann and his ilk or somehow portraying them as less culpable.  
Nothing could be further from the truth IMO.  

I feel strongly about this because I think Arendt explored the realm 
we all need to look at most--what makes respectable, by all accounts 
pleasant and upstanding, people not only look the other way during 
slaughters such as Hitler's, but become enthusiastic participants?  
What makes us surrender our will and our morality when there is no 
Imperius Curse in our world?

Anyway, thanks for the thread!
Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 12:37:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 12:37:27 -0000
Subject: Hermione's lack of tact (was Hermione regarding Neville)
In-Reply-To: <95hsci+k49v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95jie7+v7e2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11653

Amanda: 
> > Perhaps I'm just exceptionally socially inept, but why is this so 
> rude?
> > It wouldn't have offended me...?
> > 

Kimberly:

> I hadn't really considered the rudeness of it either, the first time 
> around, but when I really looked at it... I think it's just that 
it's 
> probably more thoughtful not to bring it up unless the other person 
> has indicated a willingness to discuss it.  She seems to be talking 
> about it as if it's some interesting bit of history, but for Harry, 
> it's not history, it's his life, and the reason that he has spent 
> pretty much his whole life in an abusive home.

And presumably, whatever Hermione read didn't just say that toddler 
Harry survived the curse and appears to have destroyed V's powers, but 
that toddler Harry's parents were murdered.  It's a tad tactless to 
suggest that someone would want to read about his parents' murders, 
much less talk to a stranger about them.

Well, I was more tactless than that at 11.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
Asleep was the way Harry liked the Dursleys best.
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 13:14:57 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:14:57 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?
Message-ID: <95jkkh+hlmg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11654

Okay campers, here's a topic for a lazy Sunday morning:

When we next open a freshly purchased, unread Harry Potter book 
(::hyperventilating with anticipation::), book time will probably be 
the summer between years 4 and 5.  That means prefect announcements 
are going out to our gang.

So:  who of the Trio will be [a] prefect[s]?  Any guesses about others 
(Neville etc.)?

I go with Ron and Hermione.  It's about time something DIDN'T come 
Harry's way.  Hermione's a shoo-in; Neville would be stretching 
credulity (don't know what the qualifications are, but "good student" 
and a modicum of self-confidence would seem to be among them); all the 
other options are plausible but boring (Dean, etc.); Ron would be a 
pleasant twist.  I'd like Ron to have something Harry doesn't--yes, I 
know he has a loving family and a normal life--I mean something Ron 
himself regards as a prize.  Plus I want to see F&G harass him about 
being the next Percy.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------
Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole
farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sun Feb  4 13:24:49 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 14:24:49 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who'll be a prefect?
References: <95jkkh+hlmg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7D5820.1A01F1BF@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 11655

Actually, I've always suspected there are only four prefects per year, one for each House, and in seventh year there are two prefects, a Head Girl, and a Head Boy. So I think it
will just be Hermione. But it would be interesting if it were Ron instead...<g>.

- Firebolt

Amy Z wrote:

> Okay campers, here's a topic for a lazy Sunday morning:
>
> When we next open a freshly purchased, unread Harry Potter book
> (::hyperventilating with anticipation::), book time will probably be
> the summer between years 4 and 5.  That means prefect announcements
> are going out to our gang.
>
> So:  who of the Trio will be [a] prefect[s]?  Any guesses about others
> (Neville etc.)?
>
> I go with Ron and Hermione.  It's about time something DIDN'T come
> Harry's way.  Hermione's a shoo-in; Neville would be stretching
> credulity (don't know what the qualifications are, but "good student"
> and a modicum of self-confidence would seem to be among them); all the
> other options are plausible but boring (Dean, etc.); Ron would be a
> pleasant twist.  I'd like Ron to have something Harry doesn't--yes, I
> know he has a loving family and a normal life--I mean something Ron
> himself regards as a prize.  Plus I want to see F&G harass him about
> being the next Percy.
>
> Amy Z




From simon at basilisk2.cjb.net  Sun Feb  4 13:41:45 2001
From: simon at basilisk2.cjb.net (Simon Biber)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 00:41:45 +1100
Subject: (SHIP FF SLASH) Re: This Ship stuff sounds like shojo
References: <20010204025401.4880.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <003e01c08eb0$37308990$4cdafea9@EAGLE>

No: HPFGUIDX 11656

Alex Corvus wrote:
> I didn't know if I should label this SHIP or FF, or both, or neither ...

Most SHIP comes under the FF header, but yes it is both. And I don't think
it's toooo off-topic. Especially if the extended nautical posts of late have
been allowed :-)

> Er, what explanation are you looking for, exactly? <g> No seriously,
because I
> could go on and on about this, but I don't want to if it's not the info
you're
> looking for. Are you asking about relationship dynamics within the slash
> pairings, or are you looking for some discussion of what the general
appeal
> is? Or something else?

I'm interested in discussing slash with you. If no-one else is, we could
perhaps take it off-list? Nah, scratch that... off-list communications
always dwindle away and there's never the chance for anyone else to join the
conversation.

> A couple of people have addressed the shounen-ai/yaoi phenomenon, which
I'm
> not nearly as conversant with as I am with slash (mainly info from Thorn's
> site and from aestheticism.com), but I think the seeds of both phenomena
are
> the same. Japanese culture appears to have more of an understanding that
> same-sex pairings, particularly m/m, hold considerable interest for some
girls
> and women, which Western culture - particularly in the US - seems to find
> distinctly ... odd. If that's what you're interested in, I can elaborate
on a
> number of reasons I think the appeal is there, from natural wiring in the
> lizardbrain, to explorations of homosocial bonding in source materials, to
> deconstruction of male sexuality, to the desire to see queer characters in
> media works, to sexual politics in art.

I am interested in slash as a gay man, so nothing to do with this
phenomenon. I can see on one level why women might like m/m, because many
straight men are turned on by f/f action in porn. I don't really see it as
odd, although my views tend to be pretty liberal and forgiving. Put another
way: not much 'squicks' me :-)

> Firebolt mentioned the seme/uke component of shounen-ai/yaoi, and while I
> agree that slash has less formally structured relationships, I do think
> there's a tendency to lock characters into dynamics that resemble the
seme/uke
> dynamic. You can see general trends, in a lot of cases, of making one
partner
> the alpha partner and the other the beta. To bring this back on topic,
there's
> lots of slash fanfiction out there that makes Lupin the passive partner to
> Black, that makes Draco the passive partner to Harry, both emotionally and
in
> ... well, in the sexual mechanics, to be somewhat blunt. Not all slash
does
> this, but it's enough of a trend to be noticeable. In egregious cases, the
> passive partner ends up getting "femmed" to a degree that makes me,
> personally, gnash my teeth and tear out my hair.

Yeah, this really happens to Draco, so much that he is mistakable for
Hermione in some pics made by the afflicted :-) I like my objects to be
proper men, not effeminate nancies (j/k).

> And then there's the whole discussion of people who are attracted to buddy
> pairings (Ron/Harry) as opposed to those attracted to antagonistic
pairings
> (Harry/Draco) ...

I'd have to say I'm more attracted to buddy pairings. Somewhat like Ebony
(hope I have the right person) here on this list said referring to He/Ro, I
just can't imagine a relationship built on antagonism and fights.

> G'head, ask. I could run my mouth about this to considerable length. <g>

Yes, I'm interested at least.

> Alexa,
> holding down the Ron/Draco fort
> (Harry? Who's that?)

Perhaps I'd better take up the R/Ha fort? (why fort rather than ship?)

Simon.




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sun Feb  4 13:45:34 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:45:34 -0000
Subject: OT on Arendt/banality of evil
In-Reply-To: <95jhqg+skj2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95jmdu+i38e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11658

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > One started with Hannah Arendt and concerns "the banality of 
evil." 
> > According to this view, those who committed the crimes were cogs 
in 
> a 
> > bureaucracy, and were too brainwashed or too dedicated to their 
jobs 
> and 
> > country fully to realize how evil the bureaucracy's ends were.
> > 
> 
> This may indeed be a prominent view, but if it is said to have been 
> held by Arendt herself (I'm not sure if that's what you are saying) 
I 
> humbly differ.  Arendt did not describe Eichmann as unaware of the 
> evil of the ends he made possible.  Quite the contrary--she showed 
> that he did know it (he helped PLAN the "final solution," after 
> all--he was very high up in Nazi leadership) and yet managed to 
sqaure 
> it, in his own mind, with being a moral person.  Her book on 
Eichmann 
> was extremely controversial because people thought she was excusing 
> Eichmann and his ilk or somehow portraying them as less culpable.  
> Nothing could be further from the truth IMO.  
> 
> I feel strongly about this because I think Arendt explored the 
realm 
> we all need to look at most--what makes respectable, by all 
accounts 
> pleasant and upstanding, people not only look the other way during 
> slaughters such as Hitler's, but become enthusiastic participants?  
> What makes us surrender our will and our morality when there is no 
> Imperius Curse in our world?
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the thread!
> Amy Z

If you can find it, rent "Triumph of the Will", a film made by Leni 
Riethenstahl (not sure of that spelling).  It's a film made of 
Hitler's Nurnberg Rally in the 30s(?).  It's the most 
convincing...argument, I guess I'd say...for mass hypnotism.  Even if 
you don't understand German, it is compelling and totally *scary*.  I 
was blown away by how one person could bring all that about. 

Side note:  I had to watch the above film & translate it (while the 
film was going on) in one of my university German classes. 

Having seen that film, I can better understand how Voldy can use the 
Imperius Curse to shape the will of otherwise sane and sensible (we 
hope) people. You play on their fears. 

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 14:03:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 14:03:27 -0000
Subject: Imperius resistance (was There's Something Special About Harry...)
In-Reply-To: <95f4iu+n229@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95jnff+1ghk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11659

Kevin wrote:

>Could it be that a 
>natural instinct to resist the imperius curse is a dark wizard 
>trait.  

Huh...Crouch Jr. himself didn't resist it well, though--he was kept 
under it for ~12 years.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"But won't they notice if you shut your ears in the oven door?"
"Dobby doubts it, sir."
                    --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
-----------------------------------------------------------------





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Feb  4 14:25:49 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 09:25:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:heredity/geneaology
References: <95ip5m+p03u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7D666C.9FF5E1C2@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11660



sashibuya at hotmail.com wrote:

> not. (It seems rather incredible that there are that many purebloods
> left anyway, given the amount of muggles around Hogwarts)
>

Well, Ernie MacMillan (in CoS) says that he's pureblood & can trace his
family back to 9 generations of witches & wizards - that's only a few
hundred years - certainly not back to slytherin's time -even
"purebloods" now  may have muggles in their backgrounds back in the
1200's or so - AND ernie NEVER says that it's 9 generations of
wizard/witch born witches & wizards -just that no non-magical people
count among his directy ancestors for 9 generations...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 14:51:15 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 14:51:15 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys and the Potters
Message-ID: <95jq93+jd83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11661

Hi,

I've been thinking quite a bit about the Dursleys vs. the Potters, especial=
ly about the 
patterns of intra-family relationships. 
I found it very interesting that there important similarities between these=
 two seemingly 
contrasting families. What I found particularly interesting is that the bot=
h Petunia and 
Vernon are extremely devoted parents. They really really care about Dudley.=
 In this sense 
they are very different from the Malfoys, who are very cold and uncaring to=
wards their own 
son. We know that's the way Lucius treats Draco this way, and from the shor=
t description of 
Draco's mother, it doesn't seem that she's very different from him.
Both mothers (Lily and Petunia) are devoted, body and soul, to their sons. =
I do get the 
impression that Petunia would also give her life to save Dudley, if necessa=
ry. 
Vernon appears to be a devoted husband, too. He is protective of Petunia (s=
tepping infront 
of her to "protect" her from Arthur Weasley, for instance) and they seem to=
 live quite 
harmoniously together. This parallels James devotion to Lily. Oh, and it ju=
st struck me ? 
Vernon protecting Petunia from the terrible danger of Arthur Weasley is a k=
ind of twisted 
caricature of James' trying to fight off Voldemort to save Lilly and Harry.=

But - the similarities seem somehow only to make them more eligible to func=
tion as a 
negative picture of the Potters. We don't like them one bit more because of=
 them, right? 
So ? why not? Why are we so sure that Lily and Petunia (sisters) are comple=
tely different 
persons? Is it just because we have only Harry's POV?


Naama







From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb  4 14:23:42 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:23:42 -0000
Subject: SHIP/FF: This Ship stuff sounds like shojo/admin hint on prefixes/comment on slash discussions
References: <20010204025401.4880.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net> <003e01c08eb0$37308990$4cdafea9@EAGLE>
Message-ID: <003f01c08eb6$28cd2920$5a3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11662

Alex Corvus wrote:

> > I didn't know if I should label this SHIP or FF, or both, or neither ...

Simon Biber replied:

> Most SHIP comes under the FF header, but yes it is both. And I don't think
> it's toooo off-topic. Especially if the extended nautical posts of late
have
> been allowed :-)

I can see why people are confused.  At this stage, SHIP covers relationships
in the canon that are mostly just possibilities, but which may have been
made real in fanon.  Wearing my moderator hat (mine's a car bonnet,
naturally) I suggest that if you're discussing largely relationships between
characters, use SHIP and if you're discussing imaginary plots and scenarios
which divert from the canon (or fanfic specifically) use FF.  Often it will
be both, in which case use FF/SHIP.

Simon also said:

> I'm interested in discussing slash with you. If no-one else is, we could
> perhaps take it off-list? Nah, scratch that... off-list communications
> always dwindle away and there's never the chance for anyone else to join
the
> conversation.
<snipped out Alex's text>
> I am interested in slash as a gay man, so nothing to do with this
> phenomenon. I can see on one level why women might like m/m, because many
> straight men are turned on by f/f action in porn. I don't really see it as
> odd, although my views tend to be pretty liberal and forgiving. Put
another
> way: not much 'squicks' me :-)

There should be no need to take this off-list unless it's OT and goes on
forever.  I think a discussion about the different way Japanese and Western
women view same sex relationships is OT and might be taken off-list (but I'd
also be interested in hearing what Alex has to say about the differences).
Something related more toward the predominance of women among HP slash
writers could be explored here.  It has been touched on before.  Is it just
that women in general are more inclined to write HP fanfic or fanfic in
general, or is there some other reason for the bias?  How many of these
writers are straight women and what *is* the fascination?  Are there many
f/f HP slash fanfics out there?

I've read some HP fanfic, and like or dislike it according how good it is,
rather than what the subject is.  I've never felt a burning desire to seek
out m/m fanfic stories just because I'm gay; I'm primarily interested in the
work of JK Rowling and I admire writers who can extrapolate from her work in
interesting ways.

Neil
_____________________________________
Flying-Ford-Anglia

"My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms but
one month into your fabulous Kwikspell course
I succeeded in turning her into a yak!
- Thank you Kwikspell!"

[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]






From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 15:43:02 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 15:43:02 
Subject: (SHIP FF SLASH) Ron/Harry; Draco/Ginny
Message-ID: <F266osJ3Ih7jtrSByh100004e73@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11663

Simon Biber wrote:

>I'd have to say I'm more attracted to buddy pairings. Somewhat like Ebony 
>(hope I have the right person) here on this list said referring to He/Ro, I 
>just can't imagine a relationship built on antagonism and fights.

Yes, I did refer to "the other R/H".  ;-)  While it's not my primary ship 
(and would negate that ship), I think it would be a neat relationship.  
Rhysenn, a slash author who *loves* Draco wrote the best Ron/Harry story 
I've ever read, "The Mirror Never Lies".

Realize that I'm a self-proclaimed incurable romantic... so sadomasochism 
(sp?) holds little to no appeal for me.  Neither does bickering.  My family 
is full of relatively tranquil marriages, and my (?) boyfriend and I rarely 
fight.

Which is why I'm so antagonistic against the het R/H.  My high school 
sweetheart and I were Hermione and Ron all over again and at almost their 
same ages.  I was the know-it-all brain, he was the insecure jokester who 
felt a little insecure about his older SuperBrother's shadow--his brother 
was a Cornell student (which is a huge deal to inner-city parents) and is 
now a veternarian (another big deal).  My ex always felt insecure, and it 
got on my last nerve.

We'd fight like cats and dogs, then go cool off, then something would bring 
us together again, then we'd make up heatedly, then we'd remember the real 
world (parents, school, work), then we'd drift apart again and fight.  Even 
years later, now that we've been the best of friends, we *still* go through 
that cycle.  Some may thrive on that sort of roller coaster, but this 
Hermione-type *can't* live that way.  I can only imagine what might have 
happened had I stayed with him.

I *am* a little hypocritical... of late I have been reading and writing 
(het) D/G, which is a ship of opposites if you ever saw one and only works 
if one and preferably both are OOC.  However, even if Draco and Ginny are 
improbable in canon, I can't see them engaging in an effective debate.  
Anything close to their canonical selves--Draco would say something cutting, 
and Ginny would cry.  Of course, this is canon Draco and canon Ginny... 
fanfic extrapolation might derive something entirely different.

I don't see Ginny as being nearly as argumentative as Hermione.  Much as I 
adore her character, Hermione's problem (in canon) is that she thinks that 
because she's usually right, she sincerely is starting to believe that she's 
always right.  Not so, dear Hermione.  :::ducks away from Penny:::

As Ginny's canonical self is mostly shadows and (IMHO) Draco is a 
caricature, I don't have qualms about warping their future selves at all.  
'Sides, the incurable romantic adores the imagery.  Remember this Robert 
Frost poem?

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
>From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

Very different sentiment, same vivid imagery of opposites.  That, not the 
het D/H (much as I like D/H fics) is the Romeo and Juliet-like ship.  
Granger's parents aren't effective as Capulets.  Ginny's Weasley brothers 
are very sufficient in that role.  And Lucius (if alive) would be a much 
nastier Lord Montague.

--Ebony (who can't wait to read Pippin's planned HP adaptation of "The 
Tempest)


<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
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From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Feb  4 15:56:45 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 09:56:45 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Holocaust (OT) Discussons Banned
Message-ID: <3A7D7BBC.E5E68336@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11664

Good morning all --

Wearing my Moderator Hat this morning (although I can't describe it in
detail yet -- haven't decided entirely what it looks like) ....

Since the OT Holocaust discussions seem to be veering the way of the US
election discussions of a few months ago, the Moderator Team has decided
that these discussions should be banned.  Those of you participating in
this debate are, of course, free to take your debates off-list.

Like the topic of Politics (US & UK), any further posts on this topic
will garner the poster an e-Howler warning from the Moderator Team.
Continued violations after the e-Howler will result in you being banned
from the list for one week.

We do want to emphasize, however, that this ban does not extend to
discussions of the parallels between HP and WWII.  But, the OT Holocaust
discussions of the last few days are not adding anything to HP debates
and are only becoming more and more contentious and heated.

Please direct any questions/comments to the Moderator Team at:

HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

Thanks again for listening --

Penny
The Moderator Team





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 16:02:19 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:02:19 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who'll be a prefect?
Message-ID: <F167fSDTeeY5BG8XNS800004ea2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11665

Amy Z wrote re: potential Prefects--
>
> > > I go with Ron and Hermione.  It's about time something DIDN'T come
> > Harry's way.  <snip>  I'd like Ron to have something Harry doesn't--yes, 
>I know he has a loving family and a normal life--I mean something Ron 
>himself regards as a prize.  Plus I want to see F&G harass him about
> > being the next Percy.

Firebolt responded:
>Actually, I've always suspected there are only four prefects per year, one 
>for each House, and in seventh year there are two prefects, a Head Girl, 
>and a Head Boy. So I think it
>will just be Hermione. But it would be interesting if it were Ron 
>instead...<g>.
>

I think the rumor on Jenna's site is that Hermione will make prefect.  
But--dream vote is for Ron to be the prefect instead.  <g>

This way, we'll see how he handles "having something Harry doesn't."  <g>  I 
have my own theories about how Ron would handle the spotlight.  Great side 
effect--Hermione, unless JKR drastically changes her character will be upset 
about it.  <vbg>

I won't touch the argument about Ron having something that Harry doesn't as 
fully as I could.  Everyone knows my position... each of the two in some 
degree wants to be the other.  Not *only* does Ron have a loving family and 
a normal life, he is an "insider" in the wizarding world, he's a chess whiz, 
and of the three my guess is that he has the best people skills by far... he 
can make friends much more easily than either Know-it-All Hermione or 
Lived-in-a-Cupboard-for-a-Decade Harry.

So sure, I want Ron to become a Prefect.  But not because I'm a Poor Ron 
advocate.  If we argue for Poor Ron, we can certainly make a case for Poor 
Harry, Poor Neville, and others.

The last thing that Ron needs is our misguided sympathy.  Ron needs to now 
seize this moment in canon and make it his.

However, in most stories, a sidekick that is disgruntled with the role he's 
been cast in means some sticky moments.  And that's what bothers me most of 
all.  ;-)

--Ebony AKA AngieJ  (who is glad that her H/H mates aren't touching the HGTG 
argument... one of the few ship-wide positions we hold is that Hermione is 
not "the girl"... the terminology used indicates female objectification... 
and we believe that Hermione is not some prize to be won...)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

"'We start by recruiting members,' said Hermione happily.  'I thought two 
Sickles to join--that buys a badge--and the proceeds can fund our leaflet 
campaign.  You're treasurer, Ron--I've got you a collecting tin 
upstairs--and Harry, you're secretary, so you might want to write down 
everything I'm saying now, as a record of our first meeting.'

"There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry 
sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on 
Ron's face."

--from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 225, 1st Amer. ed.

_________________________________________________________________
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From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 16:41:11 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:41:11 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys and the Potters
In-Reply-To: <95jq93+jd83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95k0n7+ik8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11666

> But - the similarities seem somehow only to make them more eligible 
to func=
> tion as a 
> negative picture of the Potters. We don't like them one bit more 
because of=
>  them, right? 
> So ? why not? Why are we so sure that Lily and Petunia (sisters) 
are comple=
> tely different 
> persons? Is it just because we have only Harry's POV?


Hey, everyone. :) My name's Stacy, and I'm on the PoU list and I 
finally joined this one yesterday.

I have to say, this is a very interesting post. I especially like 
your parallel between Arthur Weasley and Voldemort (THAT's one I'd 
never have thought of). But I wanted to point out that we don't only 
have Harry's POV. We also have Hagrid, Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, 
Snape, etc. -- everyone who actually knew the Potters. Now granted, 
these were all people who liked them (except for Snape), and they 
probably would not say anything bad about them in front of Harry. On 
the other hand, these are some very cool people the Potters were 
friends with. Also, in the beginning of SS, we see the wizarding 
community's reaction to the Potters' deaths, i.e. Dumbledore and 
McGonnagall crying. I think it's safe to say that the Potters were 
very well liked. But we actually don't know all that much about them 
as parents, and we don't know much at all aboiut Lily, do we? We know 
a lot more about James because of the Marauders (and dear old Snape). 

What I'm dying to find out is what on Earth happened to all four of 
Harry's grandparents. I suppose it's possible that Petunia got so fed 
up with her parents favoring Lily (at least, in her eyes) that she 
stopped talking to them, thereby cutting off Harry's contact with 
them as well. And I suppose it's highly likely that James's parents 
were both killed in the first war with Voldemort. But it's odd -- 
James and Lily seem to have been quite young when they married and 
had Harry (most fics have them pretty young, anyway, and since they 
met at Hogwarts it sort of follows), so their parents couldn't have 
been very old (especially James's since we know that wizards live 
about 50% longer than muggles). No grandparents around at all?

I guess we'll find out in book five.

Stacy




From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Sun Feb  4 17:38:20 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 18:38:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape & Sirius in the tunnel
In-Reply-To: <3A7C70A6.90C8DFFB@texas.net>
References: <3A7C70A6.90C8DFFB@texas.net>
Message-ID: <0u3r7tscm8qts1c60h0d6ioem1sr4v84rs@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11667

On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:57:10 -0600, Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
wrote:

>[New note in forwarded message] I also noticed that Sirius made no
>effort to conjure a stretcher for Snape, when Snape was out cold, and
>let his [Snape's] head bump on the tunnel roof, but when Snape was
>transporting Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Sirius up to Hogwarts, *he*
>brought them in a more civilized fashion.

I'd like to add at least a brief note in Sirius' favor: I'm sure there
wasn't enough space in the tunnel to carry Snape on a stretcher. BTW
it was Lupin's idea to transport Snape like this. I admit that Sirius
didn't care about him bumping his head on the tunnel roof, but I don't
think it was deliberate. He just didn't pay attention, he was too busy
thinking about how to tell Harry that he wanted him to live with him.
And don't forget that Snape had tried to kill him not long before, he
had even threatened him with the dementor's kiss. Not to mention
Sirius' mental state at that time. I don't want to say he was right
not to be more careful, but I can't see him behave in a "civilized"
way with Snape under the circumstances.

Monika
(still in defense mode) 8-)


--
Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html

Current book: William H. Calvin: The Ascent of Mind



From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  4 18:01:38 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 18:01:38 -0000
Subject: (SHIP FF SLASH) Re: This Ship stuff sounds like shojo
In-Reply-To: <003e01c08eb0$37308990$4cdafea9@EAGLE>
Message-ID: <95k5e2+l9rp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11668

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon Biber" <simon at b...> wrote:
                 
> I'm interested in discussing slash with you. If no-one else is,
> we could erhaps take it off-list? Nah, scratch that... off-list
> communications always dwindle away and there's never the chance
> for anyone else to join the conversation.

On the one hand, on-list means I can listen in. OTOH, off-list means 
not adding to list volume with stuff that gradually becomes OT.

> I am interested in slash as a gay man, so nothing to do with
> this phenomenon. I can see on one level why women might like
>  m/m, because many straight men are turned on by f/f action
> in porn. 

Have you read any HP slash? There is a whole egroup nameed hpslash, 
that I haven't joined because I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR MORE LISTS. I 
always wonder what real gay men think of our feminine fantasies of 
men who combine love with sex, struggle with their emotions, etc. On 
ffnet, A Boy's Own Camping Adventure by GrimSlasher was much praised 
as writing, but I felt doubt of its realism, so I asked several gay 
men I know to read it and tell me what they think. Unfortunately, the 
story makes no sense until after one has read Prisoner of Azkaban, 
and most of them weren't going to read *three* HP books just as 
preparation to read a self-published story. The ones who did read 
BOCA gave me non-committal answers...

I was making some generalizations, and realised that it is very 
difficult to generalise when the term 'slash' includes any kind of 
same-sex sex acts or attraction. There are stories labelled 'slash' 
in which the sex acts are rape. I am NOT INTERESTED in rape stories 
intended to be sexually arousing. It seems to me that stories about 
rape which aren't pornography and bodice-rippers are stories about 
the victim needing psychological counselling and the perpetrator 
being hunted down and punished by law enforcement or free-lance 
avengers. My generalizations were about fun sex and love sex, not 
acts of violence. My generalizations relate to the phrase above: 
'pornography and bodice rippers', the similarity and difference 
between straight men liking f/f porn and straight women liking m/m 
slash. But why do so many gay women like m/m slash?

> I like my objects to be proper men, not effeminate nancies (j/k).

I have been told that that is a very Modern, Western attitude (Modern 
meaning post-Industrial Revolution and Western meaning not Third 
World), that men never thought of having homosexual relationships in 
a context of equality and even friendship until the larger 
(heterosexual, sorry) culture invented the new idea of men and women 
having relationships in a context of equality and even friendship. I 
have read Arthur Evans' edition of THE BACCHAE and its notes, so I 
know that the above theory depends on how one chooses to read scanty 
and unclear evidence.




From katgurl2k at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 18:12:58 2001
From: katgurl2k at yahoo.com (katgurl2k at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 18:12:58 -0000
Subject: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
Message-ID: <95k63a+5bvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11669

Could someone maybe help me with this?  Harry and Hermione use the 
Time-Turner to go back three hours to help Sirius and Buckbeak 
escape.  The whole reason the original plan of takin Sirius and Peter 
to the Ministry did not work was because Lupin did not take his 
potion and he turned into a werewolf.  Wouldn't it have made more 
sense to go back to before they went to the Shrieking Shack and make 
sure that Lupin took his potion?  Then they would have been able to 
keep Peter and it would have been sorted out so that Harry could have 
gone to live with Sirius.  It doesn't make sense.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 18:21:45 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 18:21:45 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys and the Potters
In-Reply-To: <95k0n7+ik8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95k6jp+plvv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11670

Naama (?) wrote:
"But - the similarities seem somehow only to make them more eligible 
to function as a negative picture of the Potters. We don't like them 
one bit more because of them, right?  So ? why not? Why are we so 
sure that Lily and Petunia (sisters) are completely different 
persons? Is it just because we have only Harry's POV?"

Stacy wrote:
"Hey, everyone. :) My name's Stacy, and I'm on the PoU list and I 
finally joined this one yesterday."

--Welcome to the list! I hope you enjoy it. 

Stacey wrote:
"But I wanted to point out that we don't only have Harry's POV. We 
also have Hagrid, Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, Snape, etc. -- everyone 
who actually knew the Potters. Now granted, they probably would not 
say anything bad about them in front of Harry."

--Ah but I must argue this point. The books are told from Harry's 
point of view. They still reveal other characters opinions (including 
their opinons of Harry's  mum and dad) but only through those 
characters reactions with Harry. There are still of course notable 
exceptions to this, like the 1st chapter of PS/SS and GoF but for the 
most part it's Harry's POV. 

The first chapter of PS/SS is quite revealing of Dumbly's and 
Mcgonagall's reactions to the Potter's deaths and thereby their 
feelings for them. It is evident that they had a relationship that 
was much more than just teacher/student. You basically said this in 
your post. It is obvious that the Potter's were in pretty high regard 
in the wizarding community. WHY they were held in that regard is one 
of the great mysteries JKR has not yet revealed to us. 

Stacey wrote:
"What I'm dying to find out is what on Earth happened to all four of 
Harry's grandparents. I suppose it's possible that Petunia got so fed 
up with her parents favoring Lily (at least, in her eyes) that she 
stopped talking to them, thereby cutting off Harry's contact with 
them as well. And I suppose it's highly likely that James's parents 
were both killed in the first war with Voldemort."

--Well it seems obvious to me that Harry's grandparents must be dead 
or Harry would have gone to live with them instead of the Dursely's. 
How they died or what happened to them is anyone's guess. (especially 
Lily's parents as they were muggles were unlikely to have died at a 
DE's hand...)

You have to admit however that Harry's hard life with the Durselys 
works awfully well in terms of plot. His growing up with two 
grandparents who love him dearly wouldn't have been nearly as 
interesting.

Stacey wrote:
"But it's odd -James and Lily seem to have been quite young when they 
married and had Harry (most fics have them pretty young, anyway, and 
since they  met at Hogwarts it sort of follows)...."

--Well I personally don't think that they were as young as everyone 
makes them out to be. I mean granted they most likely were in their 
twenties (even early thirties???), so yes they were young. However 
just because they were young doesn't mean that the two were married 
at 19 or mother and father before they could legally buy a drink (21).

Scott




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  4 18:28:41 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 18:28:41 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys and the Potters [and mostly the Malfoys]
In-Reply-To: <95jq93+jd83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95k70p+83pm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11671

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> What I found particularly interesting is that both Petunia and 
> Vernon are extremely devoted parents. They really really care 
> about Dudley. In this sense they are very different from the
> Malfoys, who are very cold and uncaring towards their own son. 

When I first read SS, I was surprised that such evil people as 
the Dursleys, Vernon and Petunia, could be so loving and 
supportive to their spouses, each other. Of course, spoiling their 
biological child and abuse-neglecting their stepchild is a fairy tale 
cliche.

Vernon and Petunia dote on Dudley and coddle him to a point far 
beyond spoiled. People on this list have mentioned that the way they 
treat Dudley is itself a form of abuse, and it would actually be 
kinder to him if they had instilled a LITTLE bit of discipline in 
him. I am sure that it is not their INTENTION to abuse him!  

We don't know that the Lucius and Narcissa aren't just as devoted to 
their son, just more self-controlled about showing their feelings. 
I'm not arguing against 'cold', just maybe against 'uncaring': 
perhaps they force themselves to act cold to him 'for his own good'. 
Maybe they are making the opposite child-rearing error from the 
Dursleys. (Or maybe they're RIGHT, maybe putting him in a situation in 
which he learns to conceal his feelings, lie, manipulate people, 
be sarcastic (all the things we love fanon Draco for) IS the best
gift that can be given to the future adult that the child will 
become.)  

Lucius chewed Draco out fairly nastily in the Dark Magic shop at 
beginning of CoS but was that typical of his treatment of Draco? 
Right around that time, perhaps on the same shopping trip, Lucius 
bught Nimbus 2001 broomsticks for the whole Slytherin Quidditch team. 
 
There's room for all kinds of arguments about why Lucius bought the 
whole team Nimbus 2001s -- was it a bribe to put Draco on the team or 
would Draco have been on the team anyway (he must be a good Seeker, 
in PoA Harry beat him ONLY because of having a better broomstick)? 

Whether it was a bribe to put Draco on the team or simply a gift to 
the team that his son was already on, did he do it to please his son 
(who wanted to be on the team and wanted the team to be victorious) 
or to please himself (by having a son on a winning team, by defeating 
the Potter child)? 

When Draco said his father wanted to send him to Durmstrang but his 
mother didn't want him to go so far from home, was that even true? It 
might have been something Lucius and Narcissa had coached Draco to 
say in order to make nice to Karkaroff or some other motive. If true, 
does it indicate that his mother feels much more attached to him than 
she showed in public -- which I imagine a 14 yo boy would have HATED, 
to have his MOTHER treating him like a BABY in public. Does it 
indicate that his father wanted to give the beloved son the 'best' 
education, or simply that his father wanted to use him for some scheme 
involving Durmstrang?  





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  4 18:44:11 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 18:44:11 -0000
Subject: Harry's Grandparents (was the Dursleys and the Potters
In-Reply-To: <95k0n7+ik8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95k7tr+4j6k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11672

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> 
> What I'm dying to find out is what on Earth happened to all four of 
> Harry's grandparents. I suppose it's possible that Petunia got so
> fed up with her parents favoring Lily (at least, in her eyes) that
> she stopped talking to them, thereby cutting off Harry's contact
> with them as well. And I suppose it's highly likely that James's
> parents were both killed in the first war with Voldemort.

At the beginning of SS, when McGonagall protests against Dumbledore 
entrusting Harry to those nasty Dursleys, Dumbledore says they're 
'the only family he has left'. First, I think that explains why he 
gave Harry to such awful people -- there is an old magic that will 
protect him while he lives with his family. The protective effect 
takes a while to wear off after he leaves, so after a school year at 
Hogwarts he has to go back to the Dursleys to renew it, but then he 
can visit the Weasleys once it is renewed.

Second, the way this is relevant to your question, if Harry's Muggle 
grandparents were still alive, they would also be 'family' to Harry 
and Dumbledore couldn't have said his aunt and uncle were the only 
family he had left. I also wonder what happened to them, but like 
to suggest that Petunia murdered them in a temper tantrum over them 
favoring Lily.

About James's side of the family -- as you mentioned, wizarding folk 
live longer than Muggles, altho' I don't know that we know it's 
exactly 50% longer. I figured that IF wizards live to be 150 AND have 
a child when they're 30, a kid could have up to great-great-grand- 
-parents still living. 
born 1980 - kid - aged 11 in SS
born 1950 - parent - aged 41 in SS
born 1920 - grandparent -- aged 71 in SS
born 1890 - great-grandparent -- aged 101 in SS
born 1860 - great-great-grandparent -- aged 131 in SS

Were all those generations killed off fighting Dark Wizards (before 
the First Voldemort War, there was Grindelwald defeated by Dumbledore 
in 1940-something)? And they had had only one child per generation 
per all those generations? In my fic 'Cedric's Funeral' (which is 
in this egroup's Files/Fanfic folder) (at first, I didn't even know 
that people think that shameless self-promotion is something that 
should be apologized for), I made that have been the fate of the 
Diggories, so that Cedric's death ended a family that had lived 
in the same village since before 1066.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  4 18:53:45 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 18:53:45 -0000
Subject: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
In-Reply-To: <95k63a+5bvp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95k8fp+3t9b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11673

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., katgurl2k at y... wrote:
> Could someone maybe help me with this?  Harry and Hermione use the 
> Time-Turner to go back three hours to help Sirius and Buckbeak 
> escape.  (snip)  Wouldn't it have made more sense to go back (snip)
> and make sure that Lupin took his potion?

"No!" said Hermione in a terrified whisper. "Don't you understand?
We're breaking one of the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's
supposed to change time, nobody! You heard Dumbledore, if we're 
seen --"


"Exactly! You wouldn't understand, you might even attack yourself! 
Don't you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have 
happened when wizards have meddled with time.... Loads of them ended
up killing their past or future selves by mistake!"









From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Feb  4 17:57:31 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 10:57:31 -0700
Subject: Who'll be a prefect
Message-ID: <3A7D980A.B1BC148C@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11674

I think there should be at least two prefects per house per year, one
male and one female, otherwise it would be very awkward to supervise the
opposite sex dorm. I nominate Harry and Hermione, and Draco Malfoy. More
reasons for Ron to feel left out, sulk and make a prat of himself. Yay! 

Pippin



From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 19:13:23 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:13:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
In-Reply-To: <95k63a+5bvp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010204191323.8693.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11675

They weren't allowed to be seen the second time
through those three hours. How could they have made
Lupin take his potion without being seen? They also
weren't supposed to change anything that had already
happened. Dumbledore says something to the effect that
they can't mess around with events they know have
happened because it will effect the outcome in unknown
ways. Thus they cannot be seen or interact with
anyone.

--- katgurl2k at yahoo.com wrote:
> Could someone maybe help me with this?  Harry and
> Hermione use the 
> Time-Turner to go back three hours to help Sirius
> and Buckbeak 
> escape.  The whole reason the original plan of takin
> Sirius and Peter 
> to the Ministry did not work was because Lupin did
> not take his 
> potion and he turned into a werewolf.  Wouldn't it
> have made more 
> sense to go back to before they went to the
> Shrieking Shack and make 
> sure that Lupin took his potion?  Then they would
> have been able to 
> keep Peter and it would have been sorted out so that
> Harry could have 
> gone to live with Sirius.  It doesn't make sense.
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb  4 19:14:19 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:14:19 -0600
Subject: Stuffed Snitches, other gaak
Message-ID: <3A7DAA0B.1EA80F7C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11676

Hello, everyone. Last night on a wild night of freedom (sans children),
I went to the Warner Brothers store and picked up a couple extra of the
little stuffed Snitch keychains (recalling philanthropically that there
are those on this list who live in odd places like Australia, England,
etc., without the civilized niceties of Texas such as Warner's stores).
Being me, I drove the salespeople crazy going through all of them to
find the roundest ones, with the best wing placement. Anyway, if anyone
wants one, email me offlist.

Oh, and if anyone's interested, I got myself the Special Edition UNO
game, which comes in this cool little cardboard chest, so now I've got a
spare regular HP UNO game (in the little cardboard package). The package
was opened, but the decks inside are still sealed.

FYI, I also found out that the main difference between the Trivia Game
and the Trivia Game: Prefect's Edition is (a) the box, which looks like
a book; and (b) the little movers, the pieces you move around the board,
are little pewter figures (a Snitch, an owl, etc.) instead of the little
wizard hats in the other game. For these two wonderful additions, you
may pay them $45 instead of $25. In case anyone was wondering.

And I saw a new game--I think it was just called Harry Potter and the
Sorcerer's Stone--boasting 6 3/4 games inside, and it looked to be board
versions of the different challenges at the end of the book. Has anyone
gotten this? Played it? Worth getting? I'd heard the Mystery at Hogwarts
wasn't really worth it.

I got my husband a Quidditch umbrella, since the kids destroyed his old
one, and I got a big book of stickers, and a set of Slytherin and
Gryffindor plastic tumblers (since the box says they'll be coming out
with Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, too). Loads of stuff I passed on, the one
regret being the leather-look CD carrier with the embroidered Hogwarts
arms on it.

Clearly freedom goes to my head. Which explains why I'm not often let
out unaccompanied.

--Amanda




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 19:18:47 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:18:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Drinking Age in the UK (was:Re: The Dursleys and the Potters)
In-Reply-To: <95k6jp+plvv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010204191847.14721.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11677


--- harry_potter00 at yahoo.com wrote:
> --Well I personally don't think that they were as
> young as everyone 
> makes them out to be. I mean granted they most
> likely were in their 
> twenties (even early thirties???), so yes they were
> young. However 
> just because they were young doesn't mean that the
> two were married 
> at 19 or mother and father before they could legally
> buy a drink (21).
> 
> Scott
I don't think the drinking age in the UK is as high as
21. It may be 18 or even lower. I know it used to be
16 in France (over 15 years ago, when I was 17 myself,
and was happy to be able to be served...) and likely
still is. 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb  4 18:57:36 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:57:36 -0000
Subject: OT: Drinking Age in the UK
References: <20010204191847.14721.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c08edc$570a0e40$e43770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11678

AB said, in response to Scott:

> I don't think the drinking age in the UK is as high as
> 21. It may be 18 or even lower. I know it used to be
> 16 in France (over 15 years ago, when I was 17 myself,
> and was happy to be able to be served...) and likely
> still is.

The minimum purchasing age in the UK is 18.  Although it's not illegal for
anyone over the age of 5 to drink alcohol at home, 18 is usually accepted as
the legal drinking age because that's the age at whcih you can purchase
alcohol in a pub or off-licence [store].  You can have alcohol in a
restaurant, with a meal, at the age of 16 and you can enter a pub at age 14,
but not drink alcohol.  The government is currently considering a reduction
in the drinking age, to 16 or 17, but I can't see that happening.

Neil
_____________________________________
Flying-Ford-Anglia

"My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms but
one month into your fabulous Kwikspell course
I succeeded in turning her into a yak!
- Thank you Kwikspell!"

[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]








From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Sun Feb  4 19:38:26 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 19:38:26 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?/that boring Harry guy
In-Reply-To: <F167fSDTeeY5BG8XNS800004ea2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95kb3i+e8rj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11679

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> 
Eb wrote: I think the rumor on Jenna's site is that Hermione will 
make prefect.   But--dream vote is for Ron to be the prefect 
instead.  <g>
> 
> This way, we'll see how he handles "having something Harry 
doesn't."  <g>  I  have my own theories about how Ron would handle 
the spotlight.  Great side  effect--Hermione, unless JKR drastically 
changes her character will be upset  about it.  <vbg>
> 
> I won't touch the argument about Ron having something that Harry 
doesn't as   fully as I could.  Everyone knows my position... each of 
the two in some  degree wants to be the other.  Not *only* does Ron 
have a loving family and   a normal life, he is an "insider" in the 
wizarding world, he's a chess whiz,  and of the three my guess is 
that he has the best people skills by far... he   can make friends 
much more easily than either Know-it-All Hermione or  Lived-in-a-
Cupboard-for-a-Decade Harry.
> 
> So sure, I want Ron to become a Prefect.  But not because I'm a 
Poor Ron  advocate. (snip) However, in most stories, a sidekick that 
is disgruntled with the role he's   been cast in means some sticky 
moments.  And that's what bothers me most of   all.  ;-)--Ebony AKA 
AngieJ  (who is glad that her H/H mates aren't touching the HGTG 
argument... one of the few ship-wide positions we hold is that 
Hermione is 
not "the girl"... the terminology used indicates female 
objectification... 
and we believe that Hermione is not some prize to be won...)


---------------
*hugs Ebony* Thanks, Eb. I always felt mildly offended by the 
reference to Hermione as "the girl". Frankly, I feel almost as 
irritated by reference to Ron as "the sidekick" and even to Harry 
as "the hero." IMHO, this strips down JKR's lovely complex characters 
into overly simplistic stereotypes. 

Oh, dear, this is just going to be a "me too" post, isn't it? I agree 
with you that the last thing Ron needs is misguided pity and 
sympathy, and that saying that "he's got nothing and Harry has 
everything" sells short the wonderfulness of his family. Ron does not 
have nothing. He doesn't have everything, but then neither does No-
Parents-No-Love-In-His-Upbringing-Tortured-by-Memories-of-His-Dying-
Parents-Price-on-his-Head-Harry.

I would also like to see Ron made a prefect, although frankly I doubt 
he's got the grades. Not a slam against Ron, really - I doubt Harry's 
got the grades either. I'm amused by your suggestion that Ron would 
then go Mad With Power. He's probably got it in him, but...we will 
see.

As for Harry being boring, as per an earlier argument, I am mystified 
that anyone can find brave, funny, scrappy, rulebreaking, vulnerable 
little Harry boring. I don't actually find Ron boring, just not as 
interesting (to me) as Harry. Personal preference, all the way 
around, I guess. Some people probably find them both boring, and are 
widlly intrigued by Professor Binns.

Cassie




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Sun Feb  4 19:41:13 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:41:13 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stuffed Snitches, other gaak
Message-ID: <92.fe95621.27af0a59@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11680

In a message dated 2/4/2001 11:15:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
editor at texas.net writes:

<< Loads of stuff I passed on, the one
 regret being the leather-look CD carrier with the embroidered Hogwarts
 arms on it. >>

Have you seen the jean jacket with Hogwarts on the back? That is what I would 
like:)

~Hedwig~

 "Meow. Hoo. Meow. Hoo."

 



From particle at urbanet.ch  Sun Feb  4 19:46:08 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:46:08 +0100
Subject: OT: Binns (was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who'll be a prefect?/that boring  Harry guy)
References: <95kb3i+e8rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7DB17F.5D0A21B7@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 11681

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> As for Harry being boring, as per an earlier argument, I am mystified
> that anyone can find brave, funny, scrappy, rulebreaking, vulnerable
> little Harry boring. I don't actually find Ron boring, just not as
> interesting (to me) as Harry. Personal preference, all the way
> around, I guess. Some people probably find them both boring, and are
> widlly intrigued by Professor Binns.

<g> Okay; now we're even. I gave you Draco Dexter plot bunnies with my comment about the problems with Batman-Harry and Robin-Ron, and you gave me evil ideas for a fic about
Professor Binns.

- Firebolt




From kathleen at carr.org  Sun Feb  4 18:46:07 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:46:07 -0500
Subject: Bad Ron?
Message-ID: <200102041945.f14JjxC03270@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11682

Kelley wrote:
>My thoughts about Ron going bad:  I agree with Kathy's points about
>Ron's love for his friends.  Just for that, I don't believe he would
>betray Harry.  I do worry this though:  Ron is not good at resisting
>Imperius.  (Already see where I'm going? <g>)  What if he's
>controlled to betray, and it's under the guise of him doing it for
>power, glory, and riches?  Could be convincing enough that H and H et
>al believe it, at least for a while.  They would think he'd really
>gone over, because his 'reasons' would be things he's said many times
>he'd like to have (money, what he saw in Erised, etc.).  Eventually,
>Herm or Harry would remember how bad Ron is at fighting Imperius, and
>realize that is what's going on.  All the factors in this theory are
>things we've already been introduced to...  Thoughts here?

You have a very good point, Kelley.  The thought still pains me, but you have 
a very good point.  And it strikes me that if this were the case, we maybe 
getting set up for it through Sirius and Remus each apparently being willing 
to believe the other was the spy who betrayed James and Lily.  Presumably 
there were "reasons" each could think of for the other to go bad too.  But, 
they were also willing to believe the truth when confronted with it because 
they knew each other so well.  I think this is probably the most convincing 
theory I have heard on this topic, because, as you say, the elements are 
already there.  But, oh, the idea still gives me a tummyache...

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun Feb  4 20:15:49 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:15:49 -0000
Subject: Stuffed Snitches, other gaak
In-Reply-To: <3A7DAA0B.1EA80F7C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <95kd9l+g6at@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11683

Speaking of Golden Snitches, I found this on a craft site a while 
back. I guess this could be a good activity for a Harry Potter themed 
children's party...er..."grown-ups" could make one too, to make sure 
it the directions are accurate of course.

http://www.craftopia.com/shop/projects/project.asp?metaID=7037&contID=
7037&projID=474

:-) Milz




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 20:16:47 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:16:47 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?/that boring Harry guy
In-Reply-To: <95kb3i+e8rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95kdbf+ipq0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11684

> I always felt mildly offended by the 
> reference to Hermione as "the girl". Frankly, I feel almost as 
> irritated by reference to Ron as "the sidekick" and even to Harry 
> as "the hero." IMHO, this strips down JKR's lovely complex 
characters 
> into overly simplistic stereotypes. 


*sigh* Yes, and I also hate when people dismiss Hermione as 
being "not strong." There was an article in my local paper awhile 
back pointing out the fact that there are no strong women in the HP 
world, and I was so incredibly offended that I went around ranting 
and raving about it to anyone who would listen (I wish I'd been on 
this list at the time). I'm very much like Hermione in a lot of ways: 
I'm rather compulsive about my grades, I enjoy learning and studying 
(I don't have the photographic memory she must have though), I love 
reading, and I try to follow the rules if at all possible. I was 
completely offended by the fact that people thought that those very 
attributes made her not strong or uninteresting.

None of them fit stereotypes, in my opinion. I think that by the end, 
they will all have had the chance to save the day (as already 
happened in SS/PS with the obstacles to get to the stone).

Stacy




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb  4 20:37:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 14:37:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco & Snape
References: <3A7CA957.24CF64EE@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3A7DBD72.5F7B34C4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11685

Catlady wrote:

> Snape sure does a terrible job of controlling his face in canon, but
> he must have been able to do so back when he was spying on the Dark
> Side.

But where, so far, has there been any *reason* for him to control his
reactions? There has been no need; in fact, he uses his facial
expressions and voice modulations, it seems to me, quite deliberately to
influence others. That he has totally let himself go when enraged is
unsurprising; there wasn't any particular reason not to, and in front of
students, a good reason *to* ("don't make me mad").

Snape, in fact, strikes me as the sort who has all sorts of reactions
and connections going on beneath the surface, and it's been tantalizing,
the hints of more. I think he has been, and will be again, a
tremendously effective spy.

> I believe that Draco feels both affection and respect for Snape, and
> Snape feels affection for Draco.

Hah. I think that Snape sees himself in Draco, and so gives him the
breaks that he himself feels he didn't get. But I don't think Snape's
all that fond of himself, so I wouldn't take it to affection at all. [On
a related note, I think one reason Snape abuses Harry & Co. is that he
sees the Marauders in them, and is giving them the hell he thinks the
Marauders deserved and didn't get.]

In an earlier post, many eons ago (October? November?) I posited that
Snape is actually not that fond of Draco, and is doing him no favors by
favoring him so much. Harry and his friends will know how to deal with
adversity when they need to. Draco will not. What a wonderful,
double-edged stroke at the Malfoys. [I think this thread was called
something like "A New (I Hope) Snape Theory" or something, if anyone
cares enough to look it up.]

I don't think these two ideas are mutually exclusive, either; they
involve totally different parts of Snape's psyche--the associations back
to when he was young, and the DeathEater involvement as an adult--so
both could be operating. But I don't think he particularly likes Draco.

--Amanda



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Feb  4 20:45:06 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 12:45:06 -0800
Subject: HP Toy ideas (was: Stuffed Snitches, other gaak)
In-Reply-To: <3A7DAA0B.1EA80F7C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204122301.00df3520@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11686

At 01:14 PM 2/4/01 -0600, Amanda Lewanski wrote:
>And I saw a new game--I think it was just called Harry Potter and the
>Sorcerer's Stone--boasting 6 3/4 games inside, and it looked to be board
>versions of the different challenges at the end of the book. Has anyone
>gotten this? Played it? Worth getting?

There's been discussion about this game on the HP newsgroup.
Most people seem to find the "challenges" way too easy/boring
and some are engaging in making up their own rules.

>I'd heard the Mystery at Hogwarts wasn't really worth it.

I heard that it was just a recycled version of Clue.  (Or Cluedo for
our British friends.)

Is it my imagination, or are they being spectacularly unimaginative
in the toys/games they're coming out with?  Seems like they're
just taking old saws and forcing them into Harry Potter mold.

Here's some ideas I just happened to think of, in case T-W
is listening (doubt it):

-- A Quidditch board game -- Sort of like chess, but with
      Quidditch players/balls and moves that reflect the rules
       of the #1 wizard sport.

-- The Weasley's clock -- Set it so that the hands tell you
      when it's "Time to go to school", "time to eat", etc.

-- Snape's chemistry set -- The Potions master teaches the
      "magic" of chemistry.

-- Moody's chest -- I remember when I was a kid in the 70's
       there were these things called "strange change", where
       you'd open it and it showed one thing, then when you closed
       it a mechanism rotated the insides, so when you opened
       it again it showed something completely different.  So how
       about a "strange change" Moody's chest: Opening it successive
       times reveals invisibility cloaks, potions, foe glasses, and....
       Moody himself!

Anyone who has creative ideas they want to add to my list, please do...



                                                 -- Dave




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sun Feb  4 21:10:01 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:10:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: (SHIP FF SLASH) Slash discussions
In-Reply-To: <003f01c08eb6$28cd2920$5a3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102041316280.7882-100000@er4.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11687

On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Neil Ward wrote:

> Something related more toward the predominance of women among HP slash
> writers could be explored here.  It has been touched on before.  Is it just
> that women in general are more inclined to write HP fanfic or fanfic in
> general, or is there some other reason for the bias?  How many of these
> writers are straight women and what *is* the fascination?  Are there many
> f/f HP slash fanfics out there?

*delurks and waves to all the hpslashers*

Actually, I'd say that the chief reason for the predominance of
women in HP slash is that slash in general tends overwhelmingly (in some
fandoms, exclusively) to be written by/for women.  I'd say that HP slash
actually has a larger number of men involved (reading, at least) than
many other fandoms.  Aren't there something like six or seven men on the
hpslash list now?  In my experience, that's a lot.

The traditional wisdom is that slash is written primarily by/for
straight women.  Explanations then (most of which I find partly or
wholly unsatisfactory) focus on slash as a feminist project (lack of
societally ascribed gender roles; equality of power dynamics
(potentially, anyway) between the characters; the author's own
expression of power over two men, figured through the act of writing;
and so on).  Slash has also been viewed as an expression of women's
fantasy that men be emotional and romantic (a stereotype of both genders
if ever I saw one).  Other explanations draw comparison between slash
and straight men's fascination with "lesbian" sex (which has already
been mentioned here) or point to the lack of strong female chracters to
pair the Hero with -- with no female in the pairing, there's no one
character that the author/reader is supposed to identify with on the
basis of gender.

But since slash has traditionally been viewed as a "straight" endeavor,
I've not seen too many explanations that see slash as any sort of
'queering the text'.  Which is partially for good reason -- most slash
fics should *not* be considered as a form of gay/queer writing.  HP
slashdom is, however, particularly interesting in this regard, since
there are both a fairly large number of explicitly gay renderings of
characters, rather than the 'this is the only time I've ever been in a
same-sex relationship' trope so common in slash, and plots that deal
with gay issues (there are quite a few HP slash fics that deal with, for
instance, coming out in various forms), as well as the fact that there
are many more (self-identified) bi or lesbian women involved than at
least have traditionally been vocal about that identification in slash
fandoms.

We've discussed the demographics several times now on hpslash, and the
general consensus has been, I think, that there is an unusually large
number of HP slashers who identify as queer (bi, lesbian, gay, or some
form of transgendered).  Two factors have been advanced repeatedly as
explanation -- the fact that the average age of HP slashers tends to be
younger than in other slash fandoms; and the fact that there are so many
fen who have come to HP not from the 'traditional' slash fandoms (with
which I'm familiar) but from anime/yaoi.  

I actually think there's another regard in which HP slash is
particularly unusual: the extent to which the fic is *not*
text-based.  By that I mean there are very few 'missing scenes' fics or
any other type of fic that make explicit reference to events in
canon.  Although there are things in the texts that can be read as
homoerotic (Harry's reactions to Cedric, particularly when asking Cho to
the Yule Ball; the bit with Ron being placed in the lake; Ron's 'crush'
on Viktor), they are not, generally, the basis for fic.  

There also doesn't seem to be any place for an OTP (that's 'one true
pairing') polarization; although many people have a preference,
disagreements over Ha/D or Ha/R haven't yet driven us apart.  But beyond
those two pairings, there's support for Sirius/Remus,
James/Sirius(/Remus)(/Snape)(/Lucius), Snape/just about anyone *g*, D/R,
Fred/George(/Lee)(/Harry), Seamus/Dean, even (impossibile intellectu)
Percy/Neville.  The plethora of pairings (with several fics, at least,
about each) is a situation that I, frankly, can't think I've ever seen a
parallel for.

And then there's the f/f slash.  Perhaps related to the increase in (the
vocality of) queer women involved in slash, there has been a veritable
explosion of interest in f/f.  Pre-Xena, there was almost no f/f
available, but f/f slash, though in some sense it's still the overlooked
stepsister of m/m, is now available, discussed, and in some instances
even well-written.  HP is no exception, and again, as in the case of m/m
slash, a wide variety of types (and qualities) of f/f HP slash is out
there.  I do think the demographics of HP slashdom in general (average
age, previous involvement with yaoi/yuri, number of bi/lesbian women)
contribute to the relatively large amount of f/f fic.  And as in its m/m
counterpart, the variety of pairings is astonishing -- I've seen (or
written myself *g*) He/Ginny, He/Cho, He/Minerva, Lily/Minerva,
Lily/Narcissa, Minerva/Molly Weasley, Alicia/Katie(/Angelina).

But no matter how much the increase in (the visibility of) f/f warms my
heart as a lesbian, it must be acknowledged that many of the
readers/writers of f/f are straight women as well.  (There are too,
though not that I've noticed in HP, many male authors and readers of
f/f.)  Writing or reading f/f slash isn't necessarily a queer project
any more than m/m, though I do believe there is a greater lesbian
sensibility in (female-authored) f/f.  m/m slash, on the other hand, is
only in very small part about gay men; the traditional wisdom that it's
by and for women has basis in reality.  Despite the stated gender/sex of
the main characters, m/m slash is often really about women.  In extreme
clases, the result is the complete feminization of one of the
characters, but most (if not all) m/m slash displays this tendency to
some degree.  'Realistic' m/m is of little interest to most of the
audience.

Well, enough rambling from me! I just can't resist a good discussion
about slash. :)  *slips back to sunning on the sandy shores of Slash
Lagoon, watching the various ships sail by*

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://www.egroups.com/group/snapeslash/
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 21:20:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 21:20:10 -0000
Subject: SHIP/FF why m/m slash?
In-Reply-To: <003f01c08eb6$28cd2920$5a3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <95kh2a+hocl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11688

Neil wrote:

>Is it just
> that women in general are more inclined to write HP fanfic or fanfic 
in
> general, or is there some other reason for the bias?  How many of 
these
> writers are straight women and what *is* the fascination?  Are there 
many
> f/f HP slash fanfics out there?
> 
> I've read some HP fanfic, and like or dislike it according how good 
it is,
> rather than what the subject is.  I've never felt a burning desire 
to seek
> out m/m fanfic stories just because I'm gay; I'm primarily 
interested in the
> work of JK Rowling and I admire writers who can extrapolate from her 
work in
> interesting ways.

The slash fanfics I've liked do this.  I thought Silver's 
"Uncontrollable Passions" was a very convincing extrapolation from 
Harry and Draco's canon characters (it kind of devolves into excuses 
for sex scenes in parts 2-4 IMO, but it seems like it's getting back 
on track near the end).  It fit: okay, if these two were gay, this is 
the way things might play out.

I have a few theories as to why hetero women might find m/m fics 
appealing, but that's drifting pretty far OT.  In a nutshell, 
encountering a romance from inside a male character's head is unusual 
and very satisfying--after all, one of women's chief complaints about 
their male lovers is that they don't tell the women what their 
feelings are.  You shouldn't have to read gay romances to know what a 
male character is feeling, but writers of hetero romances (I'm 
thinking Harlequin here) don't seem too interested--they are playing 
to women's fantasies and so tell us what the women are thinking and 
feeling.  The more I think about it, the more I think they're missing 
the boat.  

Plus, of course, in HP the interesting characters are mostly male.  
One reason there aren't as many f/f stories (if that's true--seems to 
be, but I haven't exactly done a review of the literature) is that 
there aren't nearly as many compelling female characters.  There do 
seem to be some McGonagall devotees out there though.

Amy Z




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Feb  4 21:19:00 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 15:19:00 -0600
Subject: SHIP: RE: semi-formal analysis (Naama's logic)
References: <95hiun+6r2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7DC744.FA12DBEB@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11689

Hi --

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> 1. One thing that bugs me a little is that the H/Hers uphold the
> following:
> a. (with careful nonchallance) Ron does like Hermione.
> b. (triumphantly) There's no evidence that Hermione likes Ron back.
> c. (with gnashing of teeth) There's no evidence of Harry liking
> Hermione/Hermione liking Harry.
> AND
> d. H/H pairing is just as probable as H/R pairing.
>
> Does anybody else see a slight logical problem here?

Well, the above logic is mis-stated as far as *my* logic goes.  Not that
I speak for all the H/H types out there, but here's what I think.

I agree with (a).  However, I don't say it with careful non-chalance.
Hell, there's no getting around it, and it doesn't bother me in the
slightest: Ron likes Hermione.  It's *obvious*; it's not even a remotely
debatable topic.

(b) and (c) -- Here I have some disagreement.  I have never said
(triumphantly or otherwise) that there's *no* evidence that Hermione
likes Ron back.  What I've said (and Kathy agrees) is that Hermione is a
wild card.  The "evidence" that she likes Ron back can be refuted, just
as the "evidence" that she likes Harry can also be refuted.  Hermione's
feelings are subject to more than one interpretation.  I just don't
agree that she likes him back -- I believe the arguments that she likes
Harry are stronger.  But, I don't deny the very existence of evidence &
arguments that she likes Ron.

(c) -- Again, I've never said that there's no evidence that Hermione
likes Harry.  That's completely the opposite of what I have always
said.  FITD -- the linchpin of that theory is that Hermione likes Harry.

As for Harry not liking Hermione -- no need for gnashing of teeth.  I
don't think Harry is going to be in much condition to date or fall in
love with anyone in the canon years, truth be told.  I see H/H as a
post-canon possibility more than anything else.

I just don't see R/H in the canon, because I believe that Hermione likes
Harry and not Ron.  :--)  Which brings me to your next point .....

> If one side of a considered pairing is known to be interested, doesn't
> that tip the odds a bit? I would say that it does make the
> relationship more probable, in that one of the necessary conditions is
> fulfilled.
> Thats on the side of simple logic. But there are further
> psychological considerations. The necessary conditions (R likes Her;
> Her likes R) are not really totally independent of each other. One of
> Penny's pet peeves is that merely because Ron likes Hermione people
> immediately assume they will be together, which implies that
> they ignore what Hermione might be feeling.
> The thing is that, generally speaking, a person is not indifferent to
> the romantic interest somebody has for him/her. How often has it
> happened (especially to women) that they ended falling in love with a
> guy they hadn't even noticed before he showed interest in them? Part
> of human nature, isn't it?

And the H/H'ers have been accused of being too logical, cool-headed and
analytical about romance pairings??!!  <vbg>

I've never formally studied logic so I'll leave aside those arguments.
The psychological arguments that you raise are rather interesting
though.

I must ask -- I just can't refrain from asking -- Why "especially
women"?  Why would women be more easily swayed to fall for someone
they'd never previously had romantic interest in, just because that
person showed an interest in them?  That seems .... well, sexist, to me.

Let's put it another way: how does your above argument play out if the
situation were reversed?  What if it were clear as day that Hermione had
a crush on Ron and Ron's feelings were fairly ambiguous.  Would it still
hold true that Hermione's interest in Ron would be enough to sway him to
stand up & take notice of her as a romantic possibility?  Or, are you
really making the argument that *women* can be persuaded to change their
minds with sufficient wining, dining & roses?

How does this argument affect H/G?  Does Ginny's obvious crush on Harry
mean that they are therefore more likely to happen than not simply
because one party (albeit the female side of the equation) has interest
in him?  One of the conditions has been met there too.

I'm really curious.  This doesn't square at all with my own experiences
(or those of my friends).  Maybe I just had too many broken hearts &
unrequited love affairs.  Sigh.  But, I sure never found it to be true
that one could sway a friend to romance when it just wasn't there for
the other person.  And, conversely, I turned away some guys who were
quite smitten with me, but I could tell after a date or two that it just
wasn't going to work.  They didn't have any luck in swaying me.  So
..... in my experience, romance has only worked out when both parties
had at least a latent romantic/physical interest in the other person.

So, your theory is completely flawed in my personal experience.  And I
don't know anyone else that would fall within your theory ..... so, can
you elaborate?  I'm curious.

Penny



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From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Feb  4 21:28:28 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:28:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dursleys and the Potters [and mostly the Malfoys]
References: <95k70p+83pm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c08ef1$73b3ce40$08421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 11690


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rita Winston 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 1:28 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dursleys and the Potters [and mostly the Malfoys] 

  We don't know that the Lucius and Narcissa aren't just as devoted to 
  their son, just more self-controlled about showing their feelings. 
  I'm not arguing against 'cold', just maybe against 'uncaring': 
  perhaps they force themselves to act cold to him 'for his own good'. 
  Maybe they are making the opposite child-rearing error from the 
  Dursleys. (Or maybe they're RIGHT, maybe putting him in a situation in 
  which he learns to conceal his feelings, lie, manipulate people, 
  be sarcastic (all the things we love fanon Draco for) IS the best
  gift that can be given to the future adult that the child will 
  become.)  

  Interesting that you bring this up because I've been reading some rather good "Draco fic" lately (Surfeit of Curses, Trouble in Paradise, a story sent to me by someone, and a few others), and I find it interesting that in Fan fic I see various types of Dracos; some evil, some once-evil-turned-good, some totally repentant, some who have turned from the dark side, but still have quite a sharp tongue, but Lucius is, almost without fail, portrayed as a cold, power-hungry, overbearing, controlling, almost abusive, father.  I can see how that might prove to be the case canonically, but I find it interesting that while fanfic writers have come up with so many different interpretations of Draco (who, in canon, has shown little evidence, so far, of being so multi-faceted), there's very little variation in how Lucius is portrayed.  Why can't he be loving?  Perhaps he was just in a bad mood that day in Knockturn Alley.  Perhaps Draco was getting on his nerves (as almost any twelve year old will after a while). I'd love to see a new and different view of the Malfoy family.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Feb  4 21:34:45 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:34:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Merchandise (was Stuffed Snitches, other gaak)
References: <3A7DAA0B.1EA80F7C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <001601c08ef2$4d0cfae0$08421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 11691

I'm still looking for Harry Potter pens.  The only two Hallmarks near me don't have them (one is cleaned out because it's going out of business, and the other, for some reason, only had the calender).  Does anyone know where else, I might find them?

ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Feb  4 21:30:37 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 15:30:37 -0600
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?/that boring Harry guy
References: <95kb3i+e8rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7DC9FD.449A699A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11692

Hi --

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> *hugs Ebony* Thanks, Eb. I always felt mildly offended by the
> reference to Hermione as "the girl". Frankly, I feel almost as
> irritated by reference to Ron as "the sidekick" and even to Harry
> as "the hero." IMHO, this strips down JKR's lovely complex characters
> into overly simplistic stereotypes.
>
> I would also like to see Ron made a prefect, although frankly I doubt
> he's got the grades. Not a slam against Ron, really - I doubt Harry's
> got the grades either. I'm amused by your suggestion that Ron would
> then go Mad With Power. He's probably got it in him, but...we will
> see.

I agree with Cassie (and Ebony) re: the stereotypes.  :--)

As for the prefect issue -- I'm not even so sure about Hermione.  How
will the professors/staff feel about her close friendship with 2
notorious rule-breakers?  :--)  Sure, she's got the grades and she's an
obvious choice but for her association with her 2 best friends and her
own past involvement in fairly serious rule-breaking.  I guess some of
the things that she's done may not be known by the teachers (stealing
the polyjuice potion ingredients from Snape's office for example).  But,
all in all, I'm not completely positive that she will be made prefect
either.

But, she's a much clearer choice than Harry or Ron.  Like Cassie, I'm
not sure how their grades stack up with the other Gryffindors.  I have
the feeling that they are both about average, perhaps slightly above
average, as far as grades go.  But, more importantly, are they really
the type students to be put in charge of seeing that everyone else
adheres to the rules?  <g>

I think my bet is on Hermione (Parvarti if not Hermione) and Dean
Thomas.  Don't ask me why I chose Dean -- he just "seems" like he might
be smarter than Seamus.  And, I figure Neville's potion grades are going
to throw his overall grade average way down.  And, he'd never remember
the password to let everyone into the Common Room.  <g>

> As for Harry being boring, as per an earlier argument, I am mystified
> that anyone can find brave, funny, scrappy, rulebreaking, vulnerable
> little Harry boring.

No surprise that I agree with this too.  Sure, he may not have a
sarcastic and humorous retort for everything like Ron, but that's so
inconsequential to me.  There's so much more to Harry.  Boring?  No way!

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  4 21:40:41 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 21:40:41 -0000
Subject: Draco & Snape
In-Reply-To: <3A7DBD72.5F7B34C4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <95ki8p+tj6e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11693

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Catlady wrote:
<snip>

> In an earlier post, many eons ago (October? November?) I posited 
that
> Snape is actually not that fond of Draco, and is doing him no 
favors by
> favoring him so much. Harry and his friends will know how to deal 
with
> adversity when they need to. Draco will not. What a wonderful,
> double-edged stroke at the Malfoys. [I think this thread was called
> something like "A New (I Hope) Snape Theory" or something, if anyone
> cares enough to look it up.]

I don't think he's doing this consciously, though. I'd suspect Snape 
hasn't thought this through and doesn't subscribe to the um, 
unscheduled adversity theory of schooling. Certainly we have no idea 
what Snape really thinks of Dumbledore's unorthodox methods of 
managing the students. I'm not sure if he considers Draco to be his 
favorite student either. He seems to back up Draco mostly to torment 
Harry and his friends. He favors the other Slytherins as well, one 
would guess, but they don't show up in direct conflict with Harry 
(the limited POV problem again) enough for us to see this. 

<snip>

Charmian




From donna.rae at verizon.net  Sun Feb  4 21:58:04 2001
From: donna.rae at verizon.net (Donna Rae)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:58:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who'll be a prefect
References: <3A7D980A.B1BC148C@qnet.com>
Message-ID: <015301c08ef5$8d27c760$09392a04@vz.dsl.genuity.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11694

While reading this last post, I was just thinking...does anyone really think that this next school year, after GoF, will be anything close to normal?  Isn't the wizarding community going to war?  That was the impression I got after Dumbledore's conversation with Fudge.

What does everyone think?

Donna Rae

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rosemary 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 12:57 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who'll be a prefect


  I think there should be at least two prefects per house per year, one
  male and one female, otherwise it would be very awkward to supervise the
  opposite sex dorm. I nominate Harry and Hermione, and Draco Malfoy. More
  reasons for Ron to feel left out, sulk and make a prat of himself. Yay! 

  Pippin

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From katgurl2k at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  4 22:24:52 2001
From: katgurl2k at yahoo.com (katgurl2k at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 22:24:52 -0000
Subject: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
In-Reply-To: <20010204191323.8693.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <95kkrk+jbdq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11695

They were messing with time regardless, my only point was why 
couldn't they do it just in a different way.  They changed events by 
making sure that Buckbeak wasn't killed.  Why couldn't they have gone 
and made Lupin take his potion while he was alone, and it wouldn't 
have interfered any more than they did in the book.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> They weren't allowed to be seen the second time
> through those three hours. How could they have made
> Lupin take his potion without being seen? They also
> weren't supposed to change anything that had already
> happened. Dumbledore says something to the effect that
> they can't mess around with events they know have
> happened because it will effect the outcome in unknown
> ways. Thus they cannot be seen or interact with
> anyone.
> 
> --- katgurl2k at y... wrote:
> > Could someone maybe help me with this?  Harry and
> > Hermione use the 
> > Time-Turner to go back three hours to help Sirius
> > and Buckbeak 
> > escape.  The whole reason the original plan of takin
> > Sirius and Peter 
> > to the Ministry did not work was because Lupin did
> > not take his 
> > potion and he turned into a werewolf.  Wouldn't it
> > have made more 
> > sense to go back to before they went to the
> > Shrieking Shack and make 
> > sure that Lupin took his potion?  Then they would
> > have been able to 
> > keep Peter and it would have been sorted out so that
> > Harry could have 
> > gone to live with Sirius.  It doesn't make sense.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From rina at love-productions.com  Sun Feb  4 22:35:10 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:35:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
Message-ID: <00f001c08efa$c1f80900$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 11696

kat wrote:

<<They were messing with time regardless, my only point was why 
couldn't they do it just in a different way.  They changed events by 
making sure that Buckbeak wasn't killed.  Why couldn't they have gone 
and made Lupin take his potion while he was alone, and it wouldn't 
have interfered any more than they did in the book.>>

Understanding and explaining time travel is always so hard. LOL This is my take. We know that Lupin didn't take his potion. They know that. We all saw what happened because of it. However, we don't know that when they heard the swing of the ax at Hagrid's that it wasn't the guy swinging the ax is frusteration like they know he did in their second time around. In fact, we can pretty much entirely say that that IS what happened. Don't forget, in the first time, Harry saw himself. That means that what they did the second time is what happened at the same time as the first. When they time traveled, Harry understood that he had seen himself earlier, because that second time he saw his firsttime self with Hermione and the Dementors. So they didn't exactly change time as much as do what was meant to happen and what would happen.

So Lupin getting the potion would have changed all of the events, while H&H going back is what had already happened or what had been fated to happen.

Gosh, I think I confused myself, and I knew what I was saying. Does that make sense to anyone else?

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Feb  4 23:30:53 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 23:30:53 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?
In-Reply-To: <3A7DC9FD.449A699A@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95kond+vo08@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11697

Penny wrote:

>>>As for the prefect issue <snip> Like Cassie, I'm not sure how [Ron 
& Harry's] grades stack up with the other Gryffindors.  I have the 
feeling that they are both about average, perhaps slightly above 
average, as far as grades go.  But, more importantly, are they really 
the type students to be put in charge of seeing that everyone else 
adheres to the rules?  <g>

ME:
But despite (or rather, because of) their inherent rule-breaking 
natures, they both received Special Awards for Services to the School 
and 200 points apeice for Gryffindor as a result of their search for 
the Chamber of Secrets.  I somehow doubt that such things aren't 
taken into consideration when prefects are chosen.  

Penny also wrote:

 I think my bet is on Hermione. (Parvarti if not Hermione) and Dean
Thomas.<<<

I agree with Hermione.  I think it would be highly amusing to see her 
conflicted with her prefect duties and her natural desire to help out 
with the adventures of Harry and Ron.  Somehow, I think they would 
manage to get around her somehow.

Trina, who doesn't think Harry is boring either.







From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Sun Feb  4 23:41:17 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:41:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Merchandise (was Stuffed Snitches, other gaak)
In-Reply-To: <001601c08ef2$4d0cfae0$08421e3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFEEHFCBAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11698

Try order on line from Hallmark or try info at sylvanlanesshoppe.com they have
great Harry Potter merchandise. They have the sorting hat key chain that
will tell you which house you will be in. They also have a beautiful Hedwig
the Owl plush that hangs with a beautiful banner I know because I have one.
I hope this helps. Wanda the Witch of Revere, Ma-----Original Message-----
From: sender_w [mailto:ender_w at msn.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 4:35 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Merchandise (was Stuffed Snitches, other
gaak)


I'm still looking for Harry Potter pens.  The only two Hallmarks near me
don't have them (one is cleaned out because it's going out of business, and
the other, for some reason, only had the calender).  Does anyone know where
else, I might find them?

ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb  5 00:33:40 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:33:40 -0800
Subject: Strong Hermione - Draco - Games - Slash - Prefects
Message-ID: <3A7DF4E3.433A4400@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11699

Stacy  love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> There was an article in my local paper awhile back pointing out
> the fact that there are no strong women in the HP world, and I was
> so incredibly offended that I went around ranting and raving about
> it to anyone who would listen

There was an article like that in SALON or SLATE and there was plenty of
that type of ranting against it on this list -- this was back when we
were still a Yahoo Club. PS, I remember your handle from hpa, nice to
see you again.

Amanda wrote:
> Harry and his friends will know how to deal with adversity when
> they need to. Draco will not.

If he's had enough adversity at home, he doesn't need to have it at
school in order to learn to deal with adversity. The spoiled foolish
child of canon doesn't seem to have had much adversity at home, but the
self-controlled and competently manipulative one of fanon does seem to
have had.

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> A Quidditch board game -- Sort of like chess, but with Quidditch
> players/balls and moves that reflect the rules of the #1 wizard sport.

> Snape's chemistry set -- The Potions master teaches the "magic"
> of chemistry.

There IS a Quidditch board game, which includes a plastic catapult to
launch the Quaffle. IIRC someone on this list got it for Xmas and
reported that it was a very dull game except for the Quaffle always
going under the refrigerator when launched. I've seen multiple (IIRC 3)
"potions" HP chemistry sets at sylvanlaneshoppe's website.

Jen Faulkner wrote:
> Despite the stated gender/sex of  the main characters, m/m slash is
> often really about women. (snip)  'Realistic' m/m is of little
interest
> to most of the audience.

As a straight woman who has only marginal experience of slash and no
experience of anything having anything to do with anime/manga, I feel
you are correct. I've suggested before that straight women like the
original kind of slash, that involving romance between the series's hero
and his sidekick, because the hero and sidekick already love each other,
just not sexually.

However, I have at least an intellectual curiosity, if not a literary or
erotic desire, to know just how unrealistic my reading matter is, and I
get annoyed at my gay male friends because they won't tell me when I
ask.

Ender wrote:
> I find it interesting that while fanfic writers have come up with so
many
> different interpretations of Draco (who, in canon, has shown little
> evidence, so far, of being so multi-faceted), there's very little
variation
> in how Lucius is portrayed.  Why can't he be loving?

Speaking as someone who is trying to write about Lucius, even if he does
love his son and his wife, I can't make him be anything but an evil git
in all other aspects of life. Further, I have to give Draco at least a
'highly disciplined' upbringing in order for him to be sexy snake Draco
instead of spoiled hog Draco.

Penny Linsenmayer wrote:
> as for the prefect issue -- I'm not even so sure about Hermione.  How
> will the professors/staff feel about her close friendship with 2
> notorious rule-breakers?  :--)  (snip)
> But, she's a much clearer choice than Harry or Ron.  Like Cassie, I'm
>  not sure how their grades stack up with the other Gryffindors.  I
have
>  the feeling that they are both about average, perhaps slightly above
>  average, as far as grades go.

Being known as one of two ringleaders of the biggest mischief makers to
attend Hogwarts in generations didn't prevent James from becoming Head
Boy, which implies that he became prefect first. This argues that their
history of rule-breaking will prevent neither Hermione nor the boys from
becoming prefects. I expect Hermione and Harry to be prefects and
eventual Head Girl and Head Boy, because JKR is not as uncliched as we
like to think. If she were being uncliched, I like the idea of the
faculty choosing Neville to be prefect to force him to grow into the
job. If there are only two prefects (1 boy, 1 girl) per House per year,
and Harry (or Neville) gets the boy job, that pushes Ron out. The image
leaps to my mind of Harry begging Dumbledore to make Ron the prefect
instead of Harry, as he imagines how upset Ron will be at losing the job
to his friend.

About the grades: as I wrote in my multi-topic post #11628, I bet Ron
and Harry get excellent grades and "I suspect that ALL those Weasley
kids are academagical geniuses."

Donna Rae wrote:
> I was just thinking...does anyone really think that this next school
year,
> after GoF, will be anything close to normal?  Isn't the wizarding
> community going to war?

We don't know whether Voldemort will attack in force in the upcoming
year or whether he will lay low. If he lays low, much of the wizarding
community will follow Fudge's lead of refusing to believe that he has
returned. I agree it is quite likely that Voldemort will attack and the
entire wizarding community will be at war, and big exciting events and
deaths will occur that will completely rule out ALL sixth year fics
being written now, and a great deal of shipping, but I also think that
Dumbledore will try to keep Hogwarts as normal as possible. He appears
to have kept Hogwarts normal enough during the first V war that the
Marauders could spend their time on pranks and escapades, playing games
in their Animagi form, and not worrying about the Dark Side. There has
been a lot written about people in England trying to keep their lives
very normal during the Blitz -- going to work as per normal, and not
bothering to go to bomb shelters when the alarm went off because it
would take too much time away from the paperwork...
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From old_wych at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 01:05:35 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:05:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
In-Reply-To: <95kkrk+jbdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010205010535.13030.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11700

No, they didn't really change what happened with
Buckbeak, if you think about it. The first time
through, they hear what they think is the coup de
grace when they hear the axe swing. The noise they
hear is later explained once time has been turned
back. When Harry, Ron and Hermione are leaving
Hagrid's under the Invisibility Cloak, Harry and
Hermione (who had turned back time) had already
released Buckbeak. The swish the invisible trio heard
was the executioner swinging at a tree in frustration.
H, R & H assumed it was Buckbeak's head being chopped
off, but they didn't actually see it. 
Someone else already provided the crucial quotes
explaining that they absolutely could not be seen. And
if they couldn't be seen, there was no way they could
have gone to Lupin to get him to take his potion.

--- katgurl2k at yahoo.com wrote:
> They were messing with time regardless, my only
> point was why 
> couldn't they do it just in a different way.  They
> changed events by 
> making sure that Buckbeak wasn't killed.  Why
> couldn't they have gone 
> and made Lupin take his potion while he was alone,
> and it wouldn't 
> have interfered any more than they did in the book.
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...>
> wrote:
> > They weren't allowed to be seen the second time
> > through those three hours. How could they have
> made
> > Lupin take his potion without being seen? They
> also
> > weren't supposed to change anything that had
> already
> > happened. Dumbledore says something to the effect
> that
> > they can't mess around with events they know have
> > happened because it will effect the outcome in
> unknown
> > ways. Thus they cannot be seen or interact with
> > anyone.
> > 
> > --- katgurl2k at y... wrote:
> > > Could someone maybe help me with this?  Harry
> and
> > > Hermione use the 
> > > Time-Turner to go back three hours to help
> Sirius
> > > and Buckbeak 
> > > escape.  The whole reason the original plan of
> takin
> > > Sirius and Peter 
> > > to the Ministry did not work was because Lupin
> did
> > > not take his 
> > > potion and he turned into a werewolf.  Wouldn't
> it
> > > have made more 
> > > sense to go back to before they went to the
> > > Shrieking Shack and make 
> > > sure that Lupin took his potion?  Then they
> would
> > > have been able to 
> > > keep Peter and it would have been sorted out so
> that
> > > Harry could have 
> > > gone to live with Sirius.  It doesn't make
> sense.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> - only $35 
> > a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 01:13:46 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 01:13:46 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?
In-Reply-To: <F167fSDTeeY5BG8XNS800004ea2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95kuoa+ifra@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11701

Ebony wrote:

> So sure, I want Ron to become a Prefect.  But not because I'm a Poor 
Ron 
> advocate.  If we argue for Poor Ron, we can certainly make a case 
for Poor 
> Harry, Poor Neville, and others.
> 
> The last thing that Ron needs is our misguided sympathy. 

I agree completely, with this and with your take on the two boys as 
each wishing he had the life of the other.  I don't see Ron as Poor 
Ron--but sometimes Ron does.  Not to the extent of really feeling 
sorry for himself, or even feeling seriously jealous most of the time, 
but just to the extent you describe:  he'd like to change places with 
Harry.  So I think his being prefect would both be a nice twist and a 
source of some interesting dynamics between him and Harry.

I overstated my own sense that "everything comes to Harry."  What I 
really meant was that everything *happens* to Harry.  The same thing 
that made me cheer for the 15 seconds I thought he wasn't going to be 
Triwizard Champion is at work here.  If Harry became a prefect it 
would probably just get him into some serious, life-endangering 
trouble, same as the Tournament did, but still, he'd be at the center 
of things.  As usual.  I guess that's why his name's on the cover, 
huh?  ;-)

Penny wrote:

>As for the prefect issue -- I'm not even so sure about Hermione.  How
>will the professors/staff feel about her close friendship with 2     
>notorious rule-breakers?  :--)  

Yeah, but don't you wonder about these staff sometimes?  I mean, they 
made James "you think the Weasley Twins are bad" Potter Head Boy.

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 01:40:32 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 01:40:32 -0000
Subject: Suspicion between S&R
Message-ID: <95l0ag+mejc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11702

Kathy wrote re: possible betrayal/suspicion between Ron and Harry:

>And it strikes me that if this were the case, we maybe getting set up 
>for it through Sirius and Remus each apparently being willing 
>to believe the other was the spy who betrayed James and Lily.  
>Presumably there were "reasons" each could think of for the other to 
>go bad too.  But, they were also willing to believe the truth when 
>confronted with it because they knew each other so well. 

The S/R=H/R parallel is a really good point, even though it makes my 
stomach ache too if it means trouble between Ron and Harry, or even 
betrayal (witting or un-) by Ron.

Back to the MWPP generation and the problem of how our beloved 
Sirius and Remus could ever have suspected each other:  there is a lot 
of unknown backstory.  Maybe each did something that looked suspicious 
that we don't know about--you know, talking to their wrist like it's a 
walkie-talkie or whatever.  And they knew *someone* close to the 
Potters was passing information, so it's easy for us to say "how could 
they suspect each other," when in their situation, they had to suspect 
everyone.

One problem for us fans is that we see Peter with 20/20 hindsight.  
Fanfic exacerbates the problem by portraying him as a yellow-bellied 
weasel from age 11.  Make that a yellow-bellied weasel who stinks at 
school.  But by everything we know, he was a full-fledged member of 
the foursome--not as talented, but not drastically incompetent.  Remus 
says "I had three great friends," not "I had two wonderful friends and 
a cringing hanger-on."  Sirius's "I'll never understand why I didn't 
see that you were the spy" (paraphrase) is said with the bitterness of 
hindsight, plus 12 years in Azkaban.  He didn't know--nor did Remus or 
James or Lily or anyone else--because Peter wasn't THAT much more 
cowardly, incompetent, etc. than the other 3.  There was no reason for 
Remus or Sirius to suspect Peter any more or less than they would 
suspect one another.

Amy Z




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Mon Feb  5 01:48:42 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (msmacgoo at one.net.au)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 01:48:42 -0000
Subject: (SHIP FF SLASH) 
In-Reply-To: <95k5e2+l9rp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95l0pq+iuu8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11703

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> 
> On the one hand, on-list means I can listen in. OTOH, off-list 
means > not adding to list volume with stuff that gradually becomes 
OT.

I second this! oh the confusion

Rits said
I > always wonder what real gay men think of our feminine fantasies 
of > men who combine love with sex, struggle with their emotions, 
etc. On 
> ffnet, A Boy's Own Camping Adventure by GrimSlasher was much 
praised 
> as writing, but I felt doubt of its realism, so I asked several gay 
> men I know to read it and tell me what they think. Unfortunately, 
the 
> story makes no sense until after one has read Prisoner of Azkaban, 
> and most of them weren't going to read *three* HP books just as 
> preparation to read a self-published story. The ones who did read 
> BOCA gave me non-committal answers...

hmm, one of my gay male friends LOVED BOCA and went on to read HP. He 
has just finished POA and said that BOCA and Love in Ruins had given 
a very different slant to the POA that I read the first time <bg>.

btw and completely off topic - I can;t find BOCA or LIR, or anything 
by grimslasher over on on Fanfic.net - I've not seen anything on the 
HPslash list about this (maybe I'm not looking in the right place). 
Any info about the current location of the committee of vapires/any 
new work? If anyone knows anything e-mail me off list if you feel 
like it ... ta.
 
storm






From editor at texas.net  Mon Feb  5 02:12:22 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:12:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
References: <95kkrk+jbdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7E0C06.A132BD55@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11704

katgurl2k at yahoo.com wrote:

> They were messing with time regardless, my only point was why couldn't
> they do it just in a different way.  They changed events by making
> sure that Buckbeak wasn't killed.  Why couldn't they have gone and
> made Lupin take his potion while he was alone, and it wouldn't have
> interfered any more than they did in the book.

The best answer to this is, I think, the one that someone gave earlier
to another time-turner question: they didn't do it because they hadn't.
If they'd have gone back and had Lupin take his potion, the effect would
have been that he'd taken it the first time around, and there would have
been no impetus for them to go back in time--nothing for them to fix. As
the book stands, they didn't go back and *change* anything; they went
back to make sure it happened the way it actually happened. for the
events to take place as they did, they had to have been there both as
originally experiencing it and as time-turners. They changed none of the
events; they were the other half of the events that had already taken
place.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Feb  5 02:14:10 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:14:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Merchandise (was Stuffed Snitches, other gaak)
References: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFEEHFCBAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3A7E0C72.516A48CA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11705

Roy Mallett Jr wrote:

> Try order on line from Hallmark or try info at sylvanlanesshoppe.com they
> have
> great Harry Potter merchandise.

Yes, I've seen their stuff. But it had been pointed out by me and a few
others that their Snitch keychain is smaller and solid metal. Some
people had wanted the larger, stuffed one, and I think that's only
available through Warner Brothers (so far as I know).

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Feb  5 02:19:50 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 21:19:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco.
References: <3A7DF4E3.433A4400@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3A7E0DC6.43923CE5@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11706



Catlady wrote:

> Ender wrote:
> > I find it interesting that while fanfic writers have come up with so
>
> many
> > different interpretations of Draco (who, in canon, has shown little
> > evidence, so far, of being so multi-faceted), there's very little
> variation
> > in how Lucius is portrayed.  Why can't he be loving?
>
> Speaking as someone who is trying to write about Lucius, even if he
> does
> love his son and his wife, I can't make him be anything but an evil
> git
> in all other aspects of life. Further, I have to give Draco at least a
>
> 'highly disciplined' upbringing in order for him to be sexy snake
> Draco
> instead of spoiled hog Draco.

My take on the lack of variation in Lucius (although I do note that
Rhysenn wrote a James/Lucius story which has a different take on
lucius...) - maybe it's because we've never had a scene in canon where
he's been anything less than git-ish, and the only one where he's not
doing something blatantly evil is the one at the Top Box of the world
cup - and it's not like he could curse Arthur Weasley there & then in
front of so many ministry people!
But we've seen at least 4 scenes where Draco has been less than git-ish,
and very not blatantly evil:
1. In Madame Malkins. He's a little snide, but doesn't go worse than
that.
2. In the woods at the Quidditch World Cup, when it's easy to read the
scene as He's warning Hermione to get out of there...
3. When he gets transfigured into a ferret.
4. While walking into the Yule Ball.
I know it's not much, but from little acorns big oaks grow, and all.

BTW- when is the next chapter of Bad Dreams coming up? When I have the
time tomorrow, I'll send you an email review of it : )


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Feb  5 02:38:44 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:38:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Somewhat OT--Long ramble on morality (was banality  of evil)
References: <95jhqg+skj2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7E1234.D0F16CCC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11707

Amy Z wrote:

> What makes us surrender our will and our morality when there is no
> Imperius Curse in our world?

This is somewhat off-topic, and somewhat rambling, but I think at the
end it'll be relevant, so bear with me. I had an interesting dream, of
which I at the moment recall nothing, prompting a very unusual morning
conversation with my husband involving cultures that are primarily
honor-based versus cultures that are primarily morality-based.

By this, I mean that shame or honor, in an honor-based culture, is based
on others' perceptions of your actions. If you do something wrong, and
no one catches you, it's fine. The shame is in being caught, in others
finding out. There's a bit of this in things like the Northmen's culture
in Eaters of the Dead, and in oriental books like The Carnal Prayer Mat.

In a morality-based culture, it's the internal opinion that matters,
one's perception of one's actions judged against an absolute scale. Here
is Puritanism, I think, and the sort of extremes of guilt one can find
in some Christian churches (Catholcism does spring to mind, but it's not
alone).

Clearly, all cultures and all individuals are blends of these two,
societal pressure and internal ethical observations. However, my husband
made the observation (because I'd been keeping him up on the
WWII/Holocaust discussions) that Hitler made a creditable stab with the
Hitler Youth of making a completely honor-based system, with no morality
at all. They were molded to be fanatical supporters. I see a bit of this
in the WWII Japanese, as well, with their POWs who simply gave up and
told our side everything, since they lost their honor with their capture
and were already "dead," the kamikaze pilots, etc.

Sooo, how do these viewpoints apply to Voldemort and his Death Eaters,
and the Good Guys? Voldemort doesn't like to let his own have too much
initiative, either, seems like. And there's no shame in denying him when
necessary, or doing whatever needs to be done, so long as the ultimate
perception and end agrees with Voldemort's purposes.

The good side seems to be more morality-based. There's a code of ethics
against which they measure themselves, and their judgements are
internal. They tend to judge their own actions, rather than worry about
how the actions will be judged. One of the things that has made Snape so
interesting to me is that I have a sense that he has a very strict
internal morality--clearly, it doesn't require him to be pleasant or
terribly fair, but I just get the sense that he has a strong ethical
code all his own to which he adheres, and damn anyone else's opinion.
Dumbledore seems to let people have a free rein to make decisions and
learn, without imposing very much external, "what others think" type
honor-based stuff.

Any thoughts? Ideas? I'd never heard this sort of internal/external
discussion, and thought I'd had a wonderful original idea, but doubtless
it's been expounded upon and you Freud types know all about it
(including the correct terms). I thought it was an interesting different
lens through which to look at our beloved characters.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Feb  5 02:40:17 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:40:17 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who'll be a prefect?
References: <95jkkh+hlmg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7E1291.5A94E84E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11708

Amy Z wrote:

> So:  who of the Trio will be [a] prefect[s]?  Any guesses about others
> (Neville etc.)?

Prefects are like junior officers, right? Little administrative aides?
I'm not real clear on just what else their role entails, and that would
have a lot to do with who is chosen to fill it....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 02:56:36 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 02:56:36 -0000
Subject: HP Toy ideas (was: Stuffed Snitches, other gaak)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204122301.00df3520@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <95l4p4+f0n6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11709

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

> Is it my imagination, or are they being spectacularly unimaginative
> in the toys/games they're coming out with?  Seems like they're
> just taking old saws and forcing them into Harry Potter mold.
> 
> Here's some ideas I just happened to think of, in case T-W
> is listening (doubt it):
> 
> -- A Quidditch board game -- Sort of like chess, but with
>       Quidditch players/balls and moves that reflect the rules
>        of the #1 wizard sport.
> 
> -- The Weasley's clock -- Set it so that the hands tell you
>       when it's "Time to go to school", "time to eat", etc.
> 
> -- Snape's chemistry set -- The Potions master teaches the
>       "magic" of chemistry.
> 
> -- Moody's chest -- I remember when I was a kid in the 70's
>        there were these things called "strange change", where
>        you'd open it and it showed one thing, then when you closed
>        it a mechanism rotated the insides, so when you opened
>        it again it showed something completely different.  So how
>        about a "strange change" Moody's chest: Opening it successive
>        times reveals invisibility cloaks, potions, foe glasses, 
and....
>        Moody himself!
> 
> Anyone who has creative ideas they want to add to my list, please 
do...
>                                                  -- Dave

Okay....
-Quidditch video game- We may yet see this one, in time for the movie 
release; I'd prefer a PC version because 1)The graphics are superior, 
and 2) I don't own a game console (Needless to say, I won't be buying 
one until I'm sure what platform(s) this game will be on!)

-Flying car model kit- just as it sounds, a 1/25 scale plastic model 
kit of a Ford Anglia 105E, prepainted as a turquoise Deluxe, with 
Harry, Ron and Hedwig figures and a flight stand. (Police equipment 
and decals to replicate Neil's current alternate form optional.)

-Real, working Quidditch balls and fly-on-'em-yourself broomsticks. 
(Well, a guy can dream, can't he?)




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 02:57:34 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 02:57:34 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?
In-Reply-To: <95kuoa+ifra@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95l4qu+mfmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11710

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Ebony wrote:
<snip>
> 
> I agree completely, with this and with your take on the two boys as 
> each wishing he had the life of the other.  I don't see Ron as Poor 
> Ron--but sometimes Ron does.  Not to the extent of really feeling 
> sorry for himself, or even feeling seriously jealous most of the 
time, 
> but just to the extent you describe:  he'd like to change places 
with 
> Harry.  So I think his being prefect would both be a nice twist and 
a 
> source of some interesting dynamics between him and Harry.
> 
> I overstated my own sense that "everything comes to Harry."  What I 
> really meant was that everything *happens* to Harry.  The same 
thing 
> that made me cheer for the 15 seconds I thought he wasn't going to 
be 
> Triwizard Champion is at work here.  If Harry became a prefect it 
> would probably just get him into some serious, life-endangering 
> trouble, same as the Tournament did, but still, he'd be at the 
center 
> of things.  As usual.  I guess that's why his name's on the cover, 
> huh?  ;-)
> 

I don't know if being a prefect is very life endangering at all... :) 
I mean, when did we see Percy doing anything life-threatening during 
his tenure? BTW, can somebody with more knowledge of the British 
school system help me out here? What is it exactly that the usual 
duties of a prefect and/or Head Boy/Girl consist of? I went to a 
extremely egalitarian US school where we had no valedictorians or 
prom royals, and where the student government was scoffed at by most 
students. 
(BTW, I recently read Tom Brown's School Days, partially to see where 
the whole boarding school story began. Very different system from HP, 
understandably, but I was struck by the emphasis on not "telling 
tales.")

I think it would be cool to see Ron become a prefect. That would give 
him an interesting extracurricular. I mean, when have we seen Ron in 
a leadership position before? I wonder if Harry will eventually 
become Quidditch captain. 

> Penny wrote:
> 
> >As for the prefect issue -- I'm not even so sure about Hermione.  
How
> >will the professors/staff feel about her close friendship with 
2     
> >notorious rule-breakers?  :--)  
> 
> Yeah, but don't you wonder about these staff sometimes?  I mean, 
they 
> made James "you think the Weasley Twins are bad" Potter Head Boy.
> 

Judging from the list, we wonder about the staff quite a bit. :) I 
mean, I'm still trying to figure out why we never really see 
Professor Sinistra, even though she's taught our heroic triumvirate 
for four years.... One does have to imagine, snickering, the staff 
seated around a table discussing the prefect candidates for Harry's 
next school year. 

Charmian




From morine10 at aol.com  Mon Feb  5 03:35:11 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:35:11 EST
Subject: HGTG - don't take offense
Message-ID: <6b.f6d9f34.27af796f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11711


> I always felt mildly offended by the reference to Hermione as "the girl". 
> Frankly, I feel almost as irritated by reference to Ron as "the sidekick" 
> and even to Harry 
> as "the hero." IMHO, this strips down JKR's lovely complex characters 
> into overly simplistic stereotypes. 
> 

First, I want to say that HGTG is not meant to degrade or belittle Hermione 
in any way.  We all know that Hermione is anything but a typical 'girl'.  We 
also know that Harry, Ron, and the rest of JKR's wonderful characters are 
anything but 'simple.'  Of course, I don't think for the purpose of 
discussion that referring to them in those terms is in anyway offensive.  Of 
course that is just my opinion. :)

HGTG was a way (for me anyway) to understand the H/H stance.  I really 
thought of it quite some time ago when I only knew one other adult that had 
read the books and the only H/H-ers I knew were preadolescent readers.  (How 
wrong was I?)  I was under the impression that they were simply not old 
enough to catch JKR's subtle hints at the budding R/H romance.  It was my 
assumption that they were oversimplifying and thought that since Harry was 
the hero he should obviously be paired with the girl.  Since Hermione is the 
only strong, well-developed female character that is Harry's age, of course 
she is the obvious choice.  HGTG was born.  Since I'm not easily offended 
(and having just turned 30 I don't mind if anyone calls me *girl* <VBG>) I 
simplified.  Perhaps Hero Gets The Heroine (HGTH) is a better, more 
politically correct phrase.  Either way, don't read so much into it.  I mean 
really, you could say the same about FITD and whoever is dubbed the *cheese*! 
Never was it meant to become so *controversial*, really! :)


-Mo
Peace, Love, Harry Potter ~8^)
******************************************************************************

****************
"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From katgurl2k at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 03:41:09 2001
From: katgurl2k at yahoo.com (katgurl2k at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 03:41:09 -0000
Subject: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
In-Reply-To: <3A7E0C06.A132BD55@texas.net>
Message-ID: <95l7cl+fk9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11712

But the only reason we know that they went back and made what realy 
happen, happen was because that was the way J.K. Rowling wrote it, if 
it had been the other way around, they would have just been making 
sure again that Lupin took his potion.  And it wouldn't have affected 
things so much if only Lupin had seen them.  The big part was just so 
that the past selves did not see the ones that went back in time.  So 
they could have done this.  I think Rowling just wrote it that way so 
Harry would have to go back to the Dursley's.  We think the kid is 
just about to get a break when Sirius asks him to live with him, but 
no, something must go wrong.  Give Harry a break already!
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> katgurl2k at y... wrote:
> 
> > They were messing with time regardless, my only point was why 
couldn't
> > they do it just in a different way.  They changed events by making
> > sure that Buckbeak wasn't killed.  Why couldn't they have gone and
> > made Lupin take his potion while he was alone, and it wouldn't 
have
> > interfered any more than they did in the book.
> 
> The best answer to this is, I think, the one that someone gave 
earlier
> to another time-turner question: they didn't do it because they 
hadn't.
> If they'd have gone back and had Lupin take his potion, the effect 
would
> have been that he'd taken it the first time around, and there would 
have
> been no impetus for them to go back in time--nothing for them to 
fix. As
> the book stands, they didn't go back and *change* anything; they 
went
> back to make sure it happened the way it actually happened. for the
> events to take place as they did, they had to have been there both 
as
> originally experiencing it and as time-turners. They changed none 
of the
> events; they were the other half of the events that had already 
taken
> place.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From katgurl2k at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 03:44:53 2001
From: katgurl2k at yahoo.com (katgurl2k at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 03:44:53 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?
In-Reply-To: <95l4qu+mfmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95l7jm+lfjt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11713

Harry is really not prefect material.  He and Ron, neither are 
really.  They make okay grades and they do find a way to get into 
some sort of trouble.  Hermione is the shoo-in.  The only other thing 
that I think might be a possiblity would be Neville.  Neville has 
changed so much, and we saw so much more of him in GoF.  I think we 
all really know now why he is Gryffindor, and I also think being a 
prefect would make him come into his own.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sashibuya at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Ebony wrote:
> <snip>
> > 
> > I agree completely, with this and with your take on the two boys 
as 
> > each wishing he had the life of the other.  I don't see Ron as 
Poor 
> > Ron--but sometimes Ron does.  Not to the extent of really feeling 
> > sorry for himself, or even feeling seriously jealous most of the 
> time, 
> > but just to the extent you describe:  he'd like to change places 
> with 
> > Harry.  So I think his being prefect would both be a nice twist 
and 
> a 
> > source of some interesting dynamics between him and Harry.
> > 
> > I overstated my own sense that "everything comes to Harry."  What 
I 
> > really meant was that everything *happens* to Harry.  The same 
> thing 
> > that made me cheer for the 15 seconds I thought he wasn't going 
to 
> be 
> > Triwizard Champion is at work here.  If Harry became a prefect it 
> > would probably just get him into some serious, life-endangering 
> > trouble, same as the Tournament did, but still, he'd be at the 
> center 
> > of things.  As usual.  I guess that's why his name's on the 
cover, 
> > huh?  ;-)
> > 
> 
> I don't know if being a prefect is very life endangering at all... 
:) 
> I mean, when did we see Percy doing anything life-threatening 
during 
> his tenure? BTW, can somebody with more knowledge of the British 
> school system help me out here? What is it exactly that the usual 
> duties of a prefect and/or Head Boy/Girl consist of? I went to a 
> extremely egalitarian US school where we had no valedictorians or 
> prom royals, and where the student government was scoffed at by 
most 
> students. 
> (BTW, I recently read Tom Brown's School Days, partially to see 
where 
> the whole boarding school story began. Very different system from 
HP, 
> understandably, but I was struck by the emphasis on not "telling 
> tales.")
> 
> I think it would be cool to see Ron become a prefect. That would 
give 
> him an interesting extracurricular. I mean, when have we seen Ron 
in 
> a leadership position before? I wonder if Harry will eventually 
> become Quidditch captain. 
> 
> > Penny wrote:
> > 
> > >As for the prefect issue -- I'm not even so sure about 
Hermione.  
> How
> > >will the professors/staff feel about her close friendship with 
> 2     
> > >notorious rule-breakers?  :--)  
> > 
> > Yeah, but don't you wonder about these staff sometimes?  I mean, 
> they 
> > made James "you think the Weasley Twins are bad" Potter Head Boy.
> > 
> 
> Judging from the list, we wonder about the staff quite a bit. :) I 
> mean, I'm still trying to figure out why we never really see 
> Professor Sinistra, even though she's taught our heroic triumvirate 
> for four years.... One does have to imagine, snickering, the staff 
> seated around a table discussing the prefect candidates for Harry's 
> next school year. 
> 
> Charmian




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Feb  5 03:25:30 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 03:25:30 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Artists?  We need a logo for this club! (competition)
Message-ID: <007a01c08f23$512b6680$b23570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11714

DESIGN A LOGO FOR THIS CLUB

Are you artistic?  Would you like to design a logo for HP4GU?  Then enter
our competition and win nothing!!  But before you unleash your creativity,
PLEASE read the rules and follow the instructions here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/11192

You can view entries to date, here (voting comes later):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Logos/logos.htm

If you have any comments or queries regarding this competition then please
contact Simon at simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk - including, in the
subject line: HP4GU - LOGO.

Thanks and good luck!.

HP4GU Mod Squad & FAQ Team




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 04:05:10 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 04:05:10 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect? 
In-Reply-To: <95l7jm+lfjt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95l8pm+e3gd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11715

So who'll be prefect?

Hmmm...Hermione is the obvious choice, and that's who I'd bet money 
on. However the choice is SO obivious that I'd almost like to see 
someone else as prefect. 

The idea of Ron is very interesting. Not just because of the fact 
that he is constantly breaking rules or that Harry is his best friend 
and Harry's not erm "usual circumstances". The real thing is that if 
Ron becomes prefect what will Hermione think?

For you R/H shippers out there...How do you think this would affect 
their relationship? I'll bet one thing-

"There's gonna be trouble."

Sparks would really fly wouldn't they. Hermione immensely jealous of 
Ron, and she would be you know, even though she's more mature. (I 
know I would be jealous in her position!)

Another thought is who will be prefects in the other houses...I think 
Draco and Pansy will be the Slytherin prefects (after all do we know 
any other Slytherin girls besides Pansy by name-I'm to lazy to get 
the books and my brains not working)

Scott
Peace, Love, and Harry Potter
(I loved Mo's line so much I decided to borrow it! Hope ya don't mind 
Mo) 







From rookie at zwallet.com  Mon Feb  5 04:37:26 2001
From: rookie at zwallet.com (Sharon Jaymes)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:37:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP Toy ideas (was: Stuffed ...
Message-ID: <200102050437.WAA36838@www.zwallet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11716

I just bought a friend the HP Quidditch board game.  I'm not sure how well it plays, but I like the trivia game and the uno game that I got.

Shay

>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
>
>> Is it my imagination, or are they being spectacularly unimaginative
>> in the toys/games they're coming out with?  Seems like they're
>> just taking old saws and forcing them into Harry Potter mold.
>> 
>> Here's some ideas I just happened to think of, in case T-W
>> is listening (doubt it):
>> 
>> -- A Quidditch board game -- Sort of like chess, but with
>>       Quidditch players/balls and moves that reflect the rules
>>        of the #1 wizard sport.
>> 
>> -- The Weasley's clock -- Set it so that the hands tell you
>>       when it's "Time to go to school", "time to eat", etc.
>> 
>> -- Snape's chemistry set -- The Potions master teaches the
>>       "magic" of chemistry.
>> 
>> -- Moody's chest -- I remember when I was a kid in the 70's
>>        there were these things called "strange change", where
>>        you'd open it and it showed one thing, then when you closed
>>        it a mechanism rotated the insides, so when you opened
>>        it again it showed something completely different.  So how
>>        about a "strange change" Moody's chest: Opening it successive
>>        times reveals invisibility cloaks, potions, foe glasses, 
>and....
>>        Moody himself!
>> 
>> Anyone who has creative ideas they want to add to my list, please 
>do...
>>                                                  -- Dave
>
>Okay....
>-Quidditch video game- We may yet see this one, in time for the movie 
>release; I'd prefer a PC version because 1)The graphics are superior, 
>and 2) I don't own a game console (Needless to say, I won't be buying 
>one until I'm sure what platform(s) this game will be on!)
>
>-Flying car model kit- just as it sounds, a 1/25 scale plastic model 
>kit of a Ford Anglia 105E, prepainted as a turquoise Deluxe, with 
>Harry, Ron and Hedwig figures and a flight stand. (Police equipment 
>and decals to replicate Neil's current alternate form optional.)
>
>-Real, working Quidditch balls and fly-on-'em-yourself broomsticks. 
>(Well, a guy can dream, can't he?)
>
>
>
>Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
>website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out our >eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownup>s/files/+merger.txt
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>



______________________________________________________
Get Paid... With Your Free Email at
http://www.zwallet.com/index.html?user=rookie




From msl at fc.net  Mon Feb  5 04:12:00 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 04:12:00 -0000
Subject: Draco & Snape
In-Reply-To: <3A7DBD72.5F7B34C4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <95l96g+9uk9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11717

I think that Snape is exquisitely subtle, his naked resentment of 
Harry not withstanding, and uses his position in Slytherin house in 
order to prepare the ground for his role in the 2nd Voldemort War, 
which he has been expecting for a long time.  In order to infiltrate 
the Death Eaters a second time he needs to ingratiate himself with the 
families of Slytherin students; and what better way than by favoring 
their (ghastly) children?

Marvin




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 04:14:31 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 04:14:31 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys and the Potters [and mostly the Malfoys]
In-Reply-To: <000c01c08ef1$73b3ce40$08421e3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <95l9b7+7kir@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11718

>  . . . in Fan fic I see various types of Dracos; some evil, some 
once-evil-turned-good, some totally repentant, some who have turned 
from the dark side, but still have quite a sharp tongue, but Lucius 
is, almost without fail, portrayed as a cold, power-hungry, 
overbearing, controlling, almost abusive, father.  I can see how that 
might prove to be the case canonically, but I find it interesting 
that while fanfic writers have come up with so many different 
interpretations of Draco (who, in canon, has shown little evidence, 
so far, of being so multi-faceted), there's very little variation in 
how Lucius is portrayed.  Why can't he be loving?  >

I think it's probably because the Draco in the canon IS so cruel. No 
child becomes that mean spirited without an example. Also, Lucius IS 
a Death Eater, which indicates that his values are, perhaps, not in 
the right place. All of this, combined with Draco's attitude, 
indicate that Lucius has not been the best of parents.

Stacy




From litalex at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 04:30:37 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:30:37 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP/FF: This Ship stuff sounds like shojo/admin hint on prefixes/comment on slash discussions
References: <20010204025401.4880.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net> <003e01c08eb0$37308990$4cdafea9@EAGLE> <003f01c08eb6$28cd2920$5a3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <003501c08f2c$641f9be0$250deda9@y1j2s0>

No: HPFGUIDX 11719

Hello,

From: "Neil Ward" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
> Something related more toward the predominance of women among HP slash
> writers could be explored here.  It has been touched on before.  Is it
just
> that women in general are more inclined to write HP fanfic or fanfic in
> general, or is there some other reason for the bias?  How many of these
> writers are straight women and what *is* the fascination?  Are there many
> f/f HP slash fanfics out there?

I don't think it's just HP slash that has its majority of its writers being
female <g>.  It's slash in general, or at least that's what I've seen.  I've
been told that fanfiction (in all fandoms) writers in genreal are mostly
female.  HP is one that has many more bisexual/lesbian girls (most are too
young to be women, imho) than the more 'traditional' fandoms, i.e., X-Files,
Highlander, Sentinel, Star Trek.  Of who knows how many HP slash fics in
there, I think the number of f/f slash stories is well less than...five
percent(?) of the whole slash genre, though the number of lesbian/bisexual
identified slash writers are inproportionately higher.  Even the writers who
professed to having girlfriends are writing m/m slash, but that seems a
phenomenon quite common in many other fandoms as well.  Perhaps it has
something to do with the old view that while women don't mind
watching/reading TV shows/movies/books targeted at a male audience, most men
would run away screaming if asked to watch a 'chick flick.'

> I've read some HP fanfic, and like or dislike it according how good it is,
> rather than what the subject is.  I've never felt a burning desire to seek
> out m/m fanfic stories just because I'm gay; I'm primarily interested in
the
> work of JK Rowling and I admire writers who can extrapolate from her work
in
> interesting ways.

I don't know if this sort of comments would get me flamed, but of the many
fandoms I'm in, I find the percentage of well-written stories in the slash
genre is higher than that in gen.  Also, I'm awfully tired of reading the
(stereo)typical romance story, where the boy hero always gets the damsel in
distress, even if it stays in the background.  Which is why I usually prefer
slash over gen.  That isn't to say that JKR herself would ever write such
clichd plots or the majority of the gen writers deal only with clichs.
What I think I'm trying to say is that I'm more tolerant of the less than
technically perfect slash story than I would a gen story of the same writing
skill level.  And I don't know where I'm rambling off to.

little Alex




From msl at fc.net  Mon Feb  5 04:22:08 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 04:22:08 -0000
Subject: Can we believe in Dumbledore?
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEKPCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <95l9pg+51mc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11720

I can't help but feel that Dumbledore is biding his time.  The signs 
of Voldemort's return are mounting, but he knows that if he overreacts 
too early he will lose credibility and might find himself in a bad 
position when the chocolate toads hit the fan.

I am very much reminded of Gandalf, who picks out his pawns, Bilbo and 
Frodo, very carefully and then leaves them largely to their own 
devices.  LotR begins with Gandalf sending Frodo on a journey and then 
leaving to attend to other matters, as I recall, and not long 
thereafter Frodo is nearly killed by ringwraiths.  Gandalf is not 
all-knowing; he can't be in all places at once; and Dumbledore is in 
the same predicament.

Both men are in the position of having to choose their spear-carriers 
carefully and then, for the sake of the plot if nothing else, 
abstaining from the temptation to micro-manage their quests, as it 
were.

I think that Dumbledore loves Harry.  I think that Dumbledore also 
regards Harry as a soldier or a weapon:  he is expendable if spending 
him will defeat the evil at hand.  I'm sure that Dumbledore considers 
himself expendable has well.

Marvin




From meg at fenya.net  Mon Feb  5 04:37:32 2001
From: meg at fenya.net (Meghan)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:37:32 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Merchandise (was Stuffed Snitches, other gaak)
References: <3A7DAA0B.1EA80F7C@texas.net> <001601c08ef2$4d0cfae0$08421e3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <3A7E2E0C.81DBBF49@fenya.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11721

Me, I would shoot someone for the Hedwig backpack.  *drools lustfully*

Harry: >.> That boy in the cage told me that you'd shoot someone for a
Bag of Holding, too.
Meg: *to boy in cage* Shut up, Syaoran.  *to Harry* I'd kiss a toad for
a Bag of Holding.
Syaoran: >_> Can I get out now?
Meg: No, because Draco's around.
Syaoran: O_o; And he's been talking to Eriol?
Meg: Yep.
Harry: *carefully* 'Errol'?
Meg: No, 'E-ri-o-ru.  Kanji ga nai yo.'
Syaoran: What scares me is that she hasn't see that episode of Card
Captor for three months. >_>; And it was raw Japanese.
Meg: ^_^ I have a good memory. *to Harry* Eriol's the scary black-haired
kid that looks like you with better hair and no scar.  Not the antique
owl.
Harry: ... Is it always like this in your mind?
Meg: No, actually, usually it's worse.
Syaoran: You can say that again.
Meg: You watch your mouth, my boy.

I reeeeally want that Hedwig backpack. XD It looks like so much FUN! Or
a Crookshanks one -- ooh, that would be so much coolness.  XD Or a
Crookshanks plushie.  I would kiss Lockhart for a Crookshanks plushie.

Harry: Isn't that kiss SNAPE?
Meg: *leers*  Some of us LIKE Snape.
Harry: O_o;;;

meg
-- 
Meg -- meg at fenya.net --http://www.fenya.net
AIM: LazuliSong ICQ: lazulisong 
D N Angel, Card Captor Sakura, General Evil Things



From lexac3 at usa.net  Mon Feb  5 04:55:01 2001
From: lexac3 at usa.net (Alex Corvus)
Date: 4 Feb 2001 21:55:01 MST
Subject: SLASH/SHIP/FF: Slash discussion
Message-ID: <20010205045501.19414.qmail@nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11722

Oh goodie. I get to talk slash instead of cleaning the kitchen, which is what
I really should be doing. Heh.

Neil:
>>Something related more toward the predominance of women among HP slash
writers could be explored here.  It has been touched on before.  Is it just
that women in general are more inclined to write HP fanfic or fanfic in
general, or is there some other reason for the bias?  How many of these
writers are straight women and what *is* the fascination?  Are there many f/f
HP slash fanfics out there?>>

There's an HP femslash list out there - isn't the listowner here on HP4GU?
Jen's already discussed the increase in femslash in general. I know there's
been discussion about how well JKR has managed to flesh-out and portray her
female characters in HP, and I wonder if that contributes to less bulk of f/f
being written than m/m, although I agree that there's simply an astonishing
number of pairings being played with in HP, both m/m and f/f.

The predominance of women in HP fanfiction is pretty typical. Traditionally,
it's been women who have subverted media products and re-written them to
reflect their own experiences and desires, doing it through the male
characters we've been given, in the case of slash. It's a "feminization" of
texts that have by and large been produced by and targeted to (heterosexual)
(white) males. The demographic TV and movie producers usually want is male,
18-34. There's been discussion about whether HP itself would have appealed to
boys if Harry had been Harriette, or even if JKR had used her name instead of
her intials. Meanwhile, female fans searched for ways to put ourselves in
there. I read one academic essay (Joanna Russ, I think, although I can't find
it now, argh!) that theorized Spock was a viewpoint character for many female
Trek fans because of his alieness from the dominant paradigm. There have also
been some slash writers who conceived of characters as queer and wrote with
that assumption, although not the majority. But certainly canon-queer
characters have been absent or heavily cloaked in modern media, and I do think
there's a hunger to see them.

It used to be that people were running around throwing out statistics like "90
percent straight women" when talking about slash, but I'd question that now,
because I think there's an increasing number of women writing slash who
identify as bisexual. But certainly a large percentage are still heterosexual.
What's the appeal? I think it's as unique as the individual. On the most
basic, gut level, I think some of us are just wired this way. Why do I like
slash? I just do. <g> Why do I like chocolate ice cream? Why are any of us
turned on by what turns us on? When I step back and look at it, sure it can be
kind of amusing. I adore Remus Lupin. I adore Sirius Black. It's kind of
self-defeating, isn't it, to pair them off in my fantasies? Although it
ensures that if *I* can't have them, no other woman is going to get her hands
on them either. There's a certain amount of selfishness and proprietariness on
my part when I read about a female character with Black and go "No, no, no,
no, no!"

I think to an extent we're also reading these relationships in the way we've
been taught to read relationships, we're just ignoring gender boundaries. In
antagonistic pairings like Ron/Draco or Harry/Draco we're extrapolating from
the dynamic that told us, when we were 6, that the guy who pulled our pigtails
did it because he liked us. In buddy pairings like Ron/Harry, we've been
taught that our lovers should be our friends, so why shouldn't the people who
are our true friends become our lovers - regardless of what sex they are?
Slash looks at bonds between men as a spectrum where homosociality blurs into
homosexuality. I think, in some sense, there's a drive for emotional monogamy
in slash, the feeling that the person you have your primary emotional bond
with (love or hate) should be the person you have your relationship with. And
we tend to see characters putting their emotional investment into their
friendships much, much more than we see them putting investment into other
relationships. Source material itself traditionally has drawn male
relationships much more strongly than it shows outside romantic relationships.
And why would I want to see my hero saddled with a cardboard cutout when he
can be with someone he has a strong, sometimes exclusive bond with?

I do think slash tends to be an innately feminist act. You're going against
common conceptions of how men are "supposed" to act in romantic/sexual
situations. You're placing them in a sexual dynamic that goes against what our
culture has taught us. That makes slash subversive in the same way that saying
"I have a right to be a sexual person" is subversive for women (and for gay
men) who are shaking off traditional sexual constraints. M/m slash also
removes women from the erotic gaze. Traditionally, women have been the objects
of desire, they're the ones who have been looked at, they're the sexual
commodity. Slash is not designed for the pleasure of heterosexual men, it's
designed for me. I'm not the object of desire, and I'm not subconsciously
comparing myself to a woman who is presented in the erotic scenario. It's also
is a lot more comfortable for me when I start moving into sexual waters that
are non-mainstream. If I'm dealing with power issues, I don't want some back
part of my brain worrying that NOW is going to come yank my card-carrying
feminist card, I don't want to worry about how my characters are re-enacting
gender roles. I find that removing the gender variable is a concern for me. It
frees me to examine all the other issues - including the remaining power
dynamics - that go into a relationship. I can focus on all the other stuff. 

And now we're going to go dark - warning, mature subject matter ahead.

Slash stories can romanticize men, but there's also plenty of slash that deals
with darker sexuality, with obsession and violence, Rita mentioned rape, and I
think it's because it gives some women the distance to examine their feelings
about those issues when there's not the immediate identification of seeing
them played out through female bodies. It also gives them the chance to
examine both sides of the equation. I've seen what I consider a shocking
amount of rapefic come across the harrypotterslash list (which is different
from hpslash), particularly given the general age over there. At times I've
rolled my eyes and wondered why poor Remus can't seem to step outside the
Gryffindor common room without someone assaulting him. And if it's not Lupin,
it's Draco. Good lord, the boy has been gang-raped and tortured and mutilated
... although with Draco, I think they're whumping him to try to engage the
reader's sympathy, given he's not a particularly sympathetic character. If we
can beat him up enough, maybe everyone will feel sorry for him. Anyway, why
are teenaged girls - some of them barely into their teens - turning out
rapefic? I'm not sure how many of those writers have a good theoretical handle
on rape and its aftermath, and I might wish they'd handle the issue more
responsibly, but they're certainly exploring issues of aggression and power,
not only as victim but *as aggressor*, as possessor, when girls have
traditionally been taught to squash aggression in themselves. Sex is
undeniably one weapon of aggression, it's used to threaten other people all
the time.

On "femming" characters, Simon wrote:
>>Yeah, this really happens to Draco, so much that he is mistakable for
Hermione in some pics made by the afflicted :-) I like my objects to be proper
men, not effeminate nancies (j/k).>>

You and me both. One of the highest praises I can give a slash writer is "her
characters act like guys." I just adored one of Khirsah's Dean/Seamus stories
where she had Seamus do something so gross as to drool on his pillow while he
was asleep - none of those pretty boys would ever do something like that. I
keep threatening to write a story where Remus has bedhead and scabby elbows
from roughhousing and whacks Sirius in the back of the head for being a
smartass instead of blushing demurely and wins the belching contest the
Marauders have ... and Sirius still loves him, imagine that. Then I want to
give Draco smelly socks. See, now I'm just going overboard. But there's all
these delicate pretty boys running around, and I'm thinking ... uh, where are
the men? The solid, furry, musky, calloused-hands, strong-thighed *men*?
Where, where, where? I mean, can you really be a delicate flower and stay on
your broom during a Quidditch match in a thunderstorm? I ask you ...

Uhhhhhh ..... I just had a brain-freeze, imagining Ron feeling the broom
callouses on Draco's fingers against his skin. Give me a minute, I have to
recover. I also have to write that down, that's going into the story I'm
working on.

>>I'd have to say I'm more attracted to buddy pairings. Somewhat like Ebony
(hope I have the right person) here on this list said referring to He/Ro, I
just can't imagine a relationship built on antagonism and fights.>>

I think the buddy/antagonistic distinction could fall under the calm/volatile
dynamic that was discussed, although I'm partial to a recent distinction made
by Hth - she calls the two camps Slash Angels and Demon Lovers. I tend to be a
Demon Lover although I can sometimes be lulled into a Slash Angel mindset. But
generally I'm a drama queen and an angst queen, I like darkness and twistiness
and damaged characters and unhealthy relationships, and that's never safe for
the characters. I'm very much into the high-drama aspect of I hate you, I
don't want to love you, I despise you, why can't I help myself being attracted
to you? Love and rage and need and desire and fear twisted around each other
and fueling each other? I'm so there. It's certainly *not* a dynamic I'd want
to act out in real life, but I crave it in my fanfiction.

>>Perhaps I'd better take up the R/Ha fort? (why fort rather than ship?)>>

Because I'm nautically illiterate and would probably get seasick anyway. <g>
Although I'm not averse to dabbling my toes in the water with Jen in the Slash
Lagoon. I tend to think of "shipping" as a hetfic phenomenon. The way I break
down fanfiction is into gen, not dealing with relationships; het, with a
subset of non-canon het relationships which is "shipping;" and queer, with a
subset of non-canon queer relationships which is "slash." I'm probably using
"ship" incorrectly, but I've never identified myself as a "shipper," just as a
slasher. 

Alexa


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From lexac3 at usa.net  Mon Feb  5 05:01:31 2001
From: lexac3 at usa.net (Alex Corvus)
Date: 4 Feb 2001 22:01:31 MST
Subject: SLASH/SHIP/FF: ships, slash FF in general, yaoi anime 
Message-ID: <20010205050131.23925.qmail@nwcst319.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11723

Hey there,

I am indeed on FCA-L, so taking part of this conversation over there would
work. It could get increasingly OT. Although I see there has been some other
interest expressed here, and I do think it might have some bearing on HP
fanfiction - a couple months ago I was emailing another HP fan offlist about
what we saw as an anime/slash division in the way HP slash stories were
written, and Simon's also brought up the effect it has on HP fanart (Me:
"Who's that girl with Harry? Is that Fleur?" Heh.), so it might be somewhat
relevant. It's almost like two different literary traditions, and I'd be
interested to see other people's take on it and discuss what the roots of it
are. It'd be interesting to get a broader perspective too, though, and someone
on FCA-L might have something to add to the discussion. Parallel discussions,
perhaps, and pull away from it here if it gets too OT?

>>I do definitely recall a long, long discussion about yaoi vs. slash in
amla>>

amla?

I've never had a chance to really discuss yaoi vs. slash, and I'd love to do
it.

>>Actually, the fact that so many HP slash fans are also interested in yaoi is
in itself quite interesting. >>

You mention the Rice fans, as well, which I hadn't realized. Perhaps it's
something to do with being attracted to or used to working with written source
material instead of visual material like TV or movies? The literary sources
allow more of an individual visual interpretation.

What's surprised me is the *age* of the HP fanbase. It's much younger than any
other slash fandom I've seen . People who are interested in yaoi may also be
so common in HP because anime/manga has given them exposure to m/m at an age
when a lot of slashers had no idea that we weren't the only ones with these
strange inclinations. Looking back, I realized I slashed characters in my head
long before I knew what slash was, I just couldn't figure out why I was so
irritated with Jane coming between Will and Bran in The Dark Is Rising series.
I had no media tradition of same-sex relationships or concept of slash back
then to place my feelings in context.

Me:
>> holding down the Ron/Draco fort
>> (Harry? Who's that?)

little Alex:
>That's very interesting, 'cause Harry is, by far, my favorite character, but
>I do like the idea of Ron/Draco much better than Ron/Harry or the ship of my
>professed interest, Harry/Draco.

I have a tendency to develop what I've labeled my "Eh, to The Hero" complex,
and it spans fandoms and shows up in interesting ways in my preferred slash
pairings. It's not that I don't like The Hero, but I have a fascination for
supporting or secondary characters. And to pull this back on topic, I think in
some ways Draco and Ron could complement each other better than Draco and
Harry. I shouldn't have been surprised when my first HP story, which I'm in
the middle of writing, turned out to be R/D. I'm developing this dynamic
between them that makes Draco the external maintenance person - he protects
the relationship from outside threat, all his nastiness and snappishness gets
turned outward on people he sees as threatening their relationship or
belittling it in some way - and Ron is the internal maintenance person - he
protects the relationship from *Draco*, his innate stubbornness means that he
*holds on* and won't let go when Draco tries to push him away. There's also
Ron's insecurities, which I think could mesh well with what I see as a need to
possess from Draco. Ron ends up needing to belong to someone, and Draco is
fiercely protective of what he sees as belonging to him. It's taking forever
to write, because it's set post-Hogwarts, looking back, and that means I've
got to deal somehow with VWII, and I hate writing plot, but the relationship
itself is bound up in the fight against Voldemort.

Alexa


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From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb  5 05:37:17 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 05:37:17 -0000
Subject: Draco/
In-Reply-To: <3A7E0DC6.43923CE5@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <95le6d+c0lv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11724

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
>  
> BTW- when is the next chapter of Bad Dreams coming up? When I have
> the time tomorrow, I'll send you an email review of it : )

Someone actually wants Episode 2 of Bad Dreams?? !!1
**catlady dances happily**
**catlady purrs**

In that case, I will take it off the back burner

where I had put it so I could relax by writing Episode 4 & Episode 5 
of the Lilyfic simultaneously. The Lilyfic is incredibly much easier 
to write, not only because it is in CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER, not only 
because the characters are not heavily into concealing their feelings 
from each other, but I'm not constantly FIGHTING with the characters: 

In post #11722, Alex Corvus (I am not sure I am mentally agile 
enough to follow a conversation between Alex and Alex) wrote:

> I like darkness and twistiness and damaged characters and
> unhealthy relationships, and that's never safe for the
> characters. I'm very much into the high-drama aspect of I hate you,
> I don't want to love you, I despise you, why can't I help myself
> being attracted to you? Love and rage and need and desire and fear
> twisted around each other and fueling each other? I'm so there. 
> It's certainly *not* a dynamic I'd want to act out in real life,
> but I crave it in my fanfiction.

Love and rage and need and desire and fear twisted around each other 
and fueling each other: (Love, transference, projection, 
self-loathing, ethical violations, conflicts of loyaltiese): Damn, it 
is difficult to write.




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Mon Feb  5 05:42:18 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (msmacgoo at one.net.au)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 05:42:18 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys and the Potters
In-Reply-To: <95jq93+jd83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95lefq+pnme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11725

Naana - great post, really made me think (now I'm going to tear your 
ideas to shread - not really!)

I question that Pet' and Vernon care for Dudders, they may think they 
do, but I don't think they do. They don't do anything that is in his 
interets - they over feed him, coddle him, allow him to be an 
emotional and phsyscal bully, protect him from real life etc ...

A long time ago we had a very contentious thread - which I don't want 
to revisit (loud sigh of relief from listers around at that time) - 
about child abuse in HP. The relevent bit here is that the Dursely's 
really neglect Dudders needs as a person, by giving in to him on 
every account they fail to give him any preperation for life, any 
real ability to relate to ppl, to learn to share or *anything* (runs 
out of eleiquence).

Interesting that they can have an apparently harmonious relationship 
in the face of this excess isn't it. Another case of Harry POV?

Also - if they had not been saddled with the unwanted Harry, might 
they have been more balenced parents to the unfortunately named 
Duddly?

re the Malfoy's - Draco seems to be just a means for Lucious' 
desires. I think that Cassie takes this idea to its logical extreme 
here is DD/DS (draco is born soley to serve the Dark Lord IIRC, sorry 
Cassie if I don't). She might have taken it *a bit* far but that 
Lucious all over IMO.

storm




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Feb  5 05:54:07 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 05:54:07 -0000
Subject: HGTG - don't take offense
In-Reply-To: <6b.f6d9f34.27af796f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <95lf5v+bvca@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11726

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:
> 
> > I always felt mildly offended by the reference to Hermione 
as "the girl". 
> > Frankly, I feel almost as irritated by reference to Ron as "the 
sidekick" 
> > and even to Harry 
> > as "the hero." IMHO, this strips down JKR's lovely complex 
characters 
> > into overly simplistic stereotypes. 
> > 
> 
> First, I want to say that HGTG is not meant to degrade or belittle 
Hermione 
> in any way.  We all know that Hermione is anything but a 
typical 'girl'.  We 
> also know that Harry, Ron, and the rest of JKR's wonderful 
characters are 
> anything but 'simple.'  Of course, I don't think for the purpose of 
> discussion that referring to them in those terms is in anyway 
offensive.  Of 
> course that is just my opinion. :)
> 
> HGTG was a way (for me anyway) to understand the H/H stance.  I 
really 
> thought of it quite some time ago when I only knew one other adult 
that had 
> read the books and the only H/H-ers I knew were preadolescent 
readers.  (How 
> wrong was I?)  I was under the impression that they were simply not 
old 
> enough to catch JKR's subtle hints at the budding R/H romance.  It 
was my 
> assumption that they were oversimplifying and thought that since 
Harry was 
> the hero he should obviously be paired with the girl.  Since 
Hermione is the 
> only strong, well-developed female character that is Harry's age, 
of course 
> she is the obvious choice.  HGTG was born.  Since I'm not easily 
offended 
> (and having just turned 30 I don't mind if anyone calls me *girl* 
<VBG>) I 
> simplified.  Perhaps Hero Gets The Heroine (HGTH) is a better, more 
> politically correct phrase.  Either way, don't read so much into 
it.  I mean 
> really, you could say the same about FITD and whoever is dubbed the 
*cheese*! 
> Never was it meant to become so *controversial*, really! :)
> 
> 
> -Mo
> Peace, Love, Harry Potter ~8^)
> 



What's the problem being called a girl? Being called "the girl"
means there is only one significant girl in the book..that's a 
problem.

What's wrong with being a typical girl? This perpetuates the
idea that most girls are silly, giggly, stupid creatures and that
Hermione is the exception.

This is quite misogynistic. 

Girls are all kinds of humans these days, and so are boys.

Can we be a little less 20th century please?

(Susan who was heartened by her friend, a retired cop, Republican, 
white male, religious right, homeschools, talking about how he kisses 
and cuddles his boys, and will always do so)




From rainbowbright_au at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 08:26:01 2001
From: rainbowbright_au at hotmail.com (rainbowbright_au at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 08:26:01 -0000
Subject: Stuffed Stiches, Other HP Craft
Message-ID: <95lo2p+a2qa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11727


Milz told us about the Golden Snitches << Speaking of Golden 
Snitches, I found this on a craft site a while back. I guess this 
could be a good activity for a Harry Potter themed children's 
party...er..."grown-ups" could make one too, to make sure it the 
directions are accurate of course. >>

At http://www.craftopia.com/shop/search/project_search_results.asp?
qu=harry+potter&type=projects are four other HP Craft Activites:

* Wizard Cape and Hat
* Magic Wands & Glitter Potion
* Wizard Pouch and Coins
* Monster Spell Book and Carrying Case 

All of them have the skill level 'Dabbler' and I assume the meaning 
of that is you can be like me and get glue all over your fingers and 
through your hair, spill glitter all over the floor and accidentally 
colour the table with red 'Painters Pen' yet still come out with 
something that *resembles* glitter potion with a matching wand!

Catherine


 





From mschub at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 08:26:50 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 08:26:50 -0000
Subject: HP Toy ideas (was: Stuffed Snitches, other gaak)
In-Reply-To: <95l4p4+f0n6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95lo4a+asbl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11728

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:

> -Quidditch video game- We may yet see this one, in time for the 
movie 
> release; I'd prefer a PC version because 1)The graphics are 
superior, 
> and 2) I don't own a game console (Needless to say, I won't be 
buying 
> one until I'm sure what platform(s) this game will be on!)

Just so you know... There's evidently a Harry Potter game being 
developed for Playstation 2 that will include a Quidditch thing. Most 
likely, it will be released simultaneously for PC as well as perhaps 
the XBox (Microsoft's console) and the Dolphin or whatever Nintendo's 
upcoming console is called this week. Additionally, there are a lot of 
other software titles that are being released. For instance, Lego 
Media is releasing a Harry Potter version of its Lego Creator software 
to coincide with the release of the 9 (is it still 9?) Harry Potter 
and the Sorcerer's Stone Lego sets. And someone, I believe Tiger 
Electronics, has contracted to create handheld Harry Potter games, 
which will almost definately include one Quidditch variation or 
another.
-Mike




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 09:54:41 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:54:41 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys and the Potters
In-Reply-To: <95lefq+pnme@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95lt91+mmjr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11729

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., msmacgoo at o... wrote:
> Naana - great post, really made me think (now I'm going to tear your 
> ideas to shread - not really!)

Thanks for the compliment. And my name is Naama, pronounced Na'ama. (If anybody's 
interested - its a biblical name. One of Solomon's wives was a Naama. Its fairly popular 
now in Israel.)

> 
> I question that Pet' and Vernon care for Dudders, they may think they 
> do, but I don't think they do. They don't do anything that is in his 
> interets - they over feed him, coddle him, allow him to be an 
> emotional and phsyscal bully, protect him from real life etc ...

When I say 'care' I mean an emotional attitude, not its expression. For me to care is to 
feel with someone, and I think that we definitely see that Petunia especially is extremely 
sensitive to how Dudley feels. Of course they spoil him rotton, that goes without saying. 
But they do love him. There are children who are over indulged without being loved, but 
thats not the case with Dudley dear.

> 
> A long time ago we had a very contentious thread - which I don't want 
> to revisit (loud sigh of relief from listers around at that time) - 
> about child abuse in HP. The relevent bit here is that the Dursely's 
> really neglect Dudders needs as a person, by giving in to him on 
> every account they fail to give him any preperation for life, any 
> real ability to relate to ppl, to learn to share or *anything* (runs 
> out of eleiquence).
> 
> Interesting that they can have an apparently harmonious relationship 
> in the face of this excess isn't it. Another case of Harry POV?
> 
> Also - if they had not been saddled with the unwanted Harry, might 
> they have been more balenced parents to the unfortunately named 
> Duddly?

Well... maybe just a little. My feeling is that somehow the way they pamper Dudley and the 
way they abuse Harry is connected to the same psychological ... thing (complex.. whatever) 
they have. 

<snip>

Naama




From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Mon Feb  5 11:01:47 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:01:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco.
Message-ID: <01c08f63$08939d80$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11730


>But we've seen at least 4 scenes where Draco has been less than git-ish,
>and very not blatantly evil:
>1. In Madame Malkins. He's a little snide, but doesn't go worse than
>that.

I agree. I tend to think that in fact he was trying to get on good terms
with Harry. Harry's refusal to accept his outstretched hand must have hurt
Draco quite deep -
he remembers it after more than four years! I was quite surprised to read in
GoF that Draco keeps reminding Harry their second meeting (in Hogwarts
express in PS/SS). He certainly doesn't *want* Harry as a friend, so why
does he bother so much?

>2. In the woods at the Quidditch World Cup, when it's easy to read the
>scene as He's warning Hermione to get out of there...

Ouch... I admit I've read the scene rather like "You stupid m******d, get
out of here with your friends, I wish to watch my dad tormenting Muggles in
peace".

>3. When he gets transfigured into a ferret.

I think that the *reason* why he was transfigured to a ferret is more of an
example of Draco's "un-git-ish" behaviour. For me, that was the only time
when he acted, well, human - shouting "Don't you dare to insult my mother,
Potter!" and attacking his enemy in a fit of rage. Ironically, he lost his
temper after hearing exactly the same sort of thing he was always telling
Ron himself...

>4. While walking into the Yule Ball.

You mean that he didn't insult Hermione or Harry when he saw them both? It's
unusual, I agree, but I don't think it exactly shows the better side of
Draco's character...

I'll add one more thing: Pansy Parkinson really cares for him. That at least
shows that he's able to appear loveable to someone exept his own parents.

Monika Z.
(the Snape fan)




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 12:51:16 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:51:16 -0000
Subject: SHIP: RE: semi-formal analysis (Naama's logic)
In-Reply-To: <3A7DC744.FA12DBEB@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95m7k4+jv4a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11731

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> naama_gat at h... wrote:
> 
> > 1. One thing that bugs me a little is that the H/Hers uphold the
> > following:
> > a. (with careful nonchallance) Ron does like Hermione.
> > b. (triumphantly) There's no evidence that Hermione likes Ron back.
> > c. (with gnashing of teeth) There's no evidence of Harry liking
> > Hermione/Hermione liking Harry.
> > AND
> > d. H/H pairing is just as probable as H/R pairing.
> >
> > Does anybody else see a slight logical problem here?
> 
> Well, the above logic is mis-stated as far as *my* logic goes.  Not that
> I speak for all the H/H types out there, but here's what I think.
> 
> I agree with (a).  However, I don't say it with careful non-chalance.
> Hell, there's no getting around it, and it doesn't bother me in the
> slightest: Ron likes Hermione.  It's *obvious*; it's not even a remotely
> debatable topic.
> 
> (b) and (c) -- Here I have some disagreement.  I have never said
> (triumphantly or otherwise) that there's *no* evidence that Hermione
> likes Ron back.  What I've said (and Kathy agrees) is that Hermione is a
> wild card.  The "evidence" that she likes Ron back can be refuted, just
> as the "evidence" that she likes Harry can also be refuted.  Hermione's
> feelings are subject to more than one interpretation.  I just don't
> agree that she likes him back -- I believe the arguments that she likes
> Harry are stronger.  But, I don't deny the very existence of evidence &
> arguments that she likes Ron.
> 
> (c) -- Again, I've never said that there's no evidence that Hermione
> likes Harry.  That's completely the opposite of what I have always
> said.  FITD -- the linchpin of that theory is that Hermione likes Harry.
> 
> As for Harry not liking Hermione -- no need for gnashing of teeth.  I
> don't think Harry is going to be in much condition to date or fall in
> love with anyone in the canon years, truth be told.  I see H/H as a
> post-canon possibility more than anything else.
> 
> I just don't see R/H in the canon, because I believe that Hermione likes
> Harry and not Ron.  :--)  Which brings me to your next point .....
> 
> > If one side of a considered pairing is known to be interested, doesn't
> > that tip the odds a bit? I would say that it does make the
> > relationship more probable, in that one of the necessary conditions is
> > fulfilled.
> > Thats on the side of simple logic. But there are further
> > psychological considerations. The necessary conditions (R likes Her;
> > Her likes R) are not really totally independent of each other. One of
> > Penny's pet peeves is that merely because Ron likes Hermione people
> > immediately assume they will be together, which implies that
> > they ignore what Hermione might be feeling.
> > The thing is that, generally speaking, a person is not indifferent to
> > the romantic interest somebody has for him/her. How often has it
> > happened (especially to women) that they ended falling in love with a
> > guy they hadn't even noticed before he showed interest in them? Part
> > of human nature, isn't it?
> 
> And the H/H'ers have been accused of being too logical, cool-headed and
> analytical about romance pairings??!!  <vbg>
> 
> I've never formally studied logic so I'll leave aside those arguments.
> The psychological arguments that you raise are rather interesting
> though.
> 
> I must ask -- I just can't refrain from asking -- Why "especially
> women"?  Why would women be more easily swayed to fall for someone
> they'd never previously had romantic interest in, just because that
> person showed an interest in them?  That seems .... well, sexist, to me.
> 
> Let's put it another way: how does your above argument play out if the
> situation were reversed?  What if it were clear as day that Hermione had
> a crush on Ron and Ron's feelings were fairly ambiguous.  Would it still
> hold true that Hermione's interest in Ron would be enough to sway him to
> stand up & take notice of her as a romantic possibility?  Or, are you
> really making the argument that *women* can be persuaded to change their
> minds with sufficient wining, dining & roses?
> 
> How does this argument affect H/G?  Does Ginny's obvious crush on Harry
> mean that they are therefore more likely to happen than not simply
> because one party (albeit the female side of the equation) has interest
> in him?  One of the conditions has been met there too.
> 
> I'm really curious.  This doesn't square at all with my own experiences
> (or those of my friends).  Maybe I just had too many broken hearts &
> unrequited love affairs.  Sigh.  But, I sure never found it to be true
> that one could sway a friend to romance when it just wasn't there for
> the other person.  And, conversely, I turned away some guys who were
> quite smitten with me, but I could tell after a date or two that it just
> wasn't going to work.  They didn't have any luck in swaying me.  So
> ..... in my experience, romance has only worked out when both parties
> had at least a latent romantic/physical interest in the other person.
> 
> So, your theory is completely flawed in my personal experience.  And I
> don't know anyone else that would fall within your theory ..... so, can
> you elaborate?  I'm curious.
> 
> Penny
> 
OK. As to my "formal analysis", if you really see more evidence to Her liking H than Her 
liking Ron than you definitely pull the rug from under my feet. My argument is indeed 
irrelevant.

As to my "psychological considerations", I'll try and clarify my position, but first a quote 
from one of my favorite books:

[Elisabeth and her friend Charlotte are discussing Jane's behaving in such a way that her 
feelings for Bingley cannot be discerned.]

It may perhaps be pleasant," replied Charlotte, "to be able to
impose on the public in such a case; but it is sometimes a
disadvantage to be so very guarded.  If a woman conceals her
affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose
the opportunity of fixing him; and it will then be but poor
consolation to believe the world equally in the dark.  There is
so much of gratitude or vanity in almost every attachment, that
it is not safe to leave any to itself.  We can all BEGIN freely-- a
slight preference is natural enough; but there are very few of us
who have heart enough to be really in love without
encouragement.  In nine cases out of ten a women had better
show MORE affection than she feels.  Bingley, likes your
sister, undoubtedly; but he may never do more than like her, if
she does not help him on." (Pride and Prejudice)

The real point here is: "there is so much of gratitude or vanity in almost every 
attachment". I'll call it the "flattery factor". 
As I see it, the flattery factor's effect is to calls attention to a person who might 
otherwise not be noticed (romantically). It also creates.. I don't quite know how to 
describe it - maybe an *initial* positive attitude towards him/her. You start inspecting 
the guy/girl as a possible mate. You may of course immediately reject him/her. I too have 
been smitten with men who didn't want me <fools!> and vice versa. 
Also, if you're an insecure sort of person (I am) you might not even acknowledge to yourself 
the "latent romantic/physcial interest" you have for a person. When the other person shows 
interest in you, you then feel safe to admit to yourself that you do find him/her attractive.
I do not agree with Charlotte about the "much", BTW. From my experience the flattery factor 
certainly has an effect but I wouldn't say its a major factor in how (and if) the romantic 
relationship evolves. That has to do with suitability on many different levels.

Now to the (not so) diplomatic allegation of sexism: 
Well, I wrote "Especially women" because it is still more usual for men to take the 
initiative in courting. Its more often *he* who shows an interest in *her*. This is an "is" 
statement, not "should". If it is not the case in your experience, in your culture, 
then "especially women" would not be true.
Inherently I think that men are just as susceptible as women to the flattery factor (but 
see reservation below). I know of several happily married couples where it was the woman 
who "pursued" the man. Although Ginny's crush on Harry is too awkward and gauche to be 
anything but embarassing for Harry right now, if she matures and becomes more subtle about 
it, her interest in Harry may certainly play a parallel role to Ron's feelings for Hermione 
(in fact, I think it will). 

Reservation: There might be a difference in a man's reaction due to the cultural 
conditioning (which I think still exists in some measure) that it is the man who should 
take the initiative. If a man is brought up with this conditioning he might be embarassed 
and even repulsed by a woman's taking an active interest in him (speculation - he might 
perhaps feel feminized? is that the problem men had/have with women on top?).


Naama






From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  5 13:10:56 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:10:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HGTG - don't take offense
References: <95lf5v+bvca@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003901c08f75$146b5d20$e376d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11732


----- Original Message -----
From: <Schlobin at aol.com>

>
>
> What's the problem being called a girl? Being called "the girl"
> means there is only one significant girl in the book..that's a
> problem.
>
> What's wrong with being a typical girl? This perpetuates the
> idea that most girls are silly, giggly, stupid creatures and that
> Hermione is the exception.
>
> This is quite misogynistic.
>
> Girls are all kinds of humans these days, and so are boys.
>
> Can we be a little less 20th century please?
>
> (Susan who was heartened by her friend, a retired cop, Republican,
> white male, religious right, homeschools, talking about how he kisses
> and cuddles his boys, and will always do so)


Was this signature statement meant as a joke?  You just finished explaining
that women could be a girl if they wanted to be (and I wholeheartedly agree
with this) and to imply that stereotyping someone as just a girl was
misogynistic, then you turn around and are amazed that a conservative man
could love his kids?  What kind of stereotyping was going on in your head to
think that he would treat his kids otherwise?  Just because he's a man, or
is it because he's conservative, or religious?  Which one of those should
have made him the type not to hug and kiss his kids?

carole





From old_wych at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 13:27:59 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:27:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
In-Reply-To: <95l7cl+fk9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010205132759.142.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11733


--- katgurl2k at yahoo.com wrote:
I think Rowling just
> wrote it that way so 
> Harry would have to go back to the Dursley's.  We
> think the kid is 
> just about to get a break when Sirius asks him to
> live with him, but 
> no, something must go wrong.  Give Harry a break
> already!

I think he would have gone back to the Dursley's
regardless. Remember there's some sort of protection
for him as long as he's under their roof.

Anne


__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From old_wych at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 13:30:32 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:30:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who'll be a prefect? 
In-Reply-To: <95l8pm+e3gd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010205133032.430.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11734


--- harry_potter00 at yahoo.com wrote:
> Another thought is who will be prefects in the other
> houses...I think 
> Draco and Pansy will be the Slytherin prefects
> (after all do we know 
> any other Slytherin girls besides Pansy by name-I'm
> to lazy to get 
> the books and my brains not working)
> 
Lessee, there's Millicent Bulstrode and Susan Bones...

__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Mon Feb  5 13:41:20 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:41:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape/Sirius relationship/Severus is a nice name
Message-ID: <01c08f79$52b544c0$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11735

>> To my best knowledge no relative is ever mentioned. We also know nothing
>> about Snape's family. I'd laugh my head off if these two tall, thin,
>> black-haired men turned out to be relatives...


>Yes! You are genius!

Wow, thanks...

> Or maybe
>Snape Senior didn't want to confirm that SB was his son and that's the real
>reason of Severus&Sirius' arguments. And they both don't take baths very
>often... ;-)


Good idea! That's some explanation why Sirius doesn't like Snape. It's not
explained in the canon - all we get is Sirius's statement that Snape was
spying on the Marauders and trying to get them expelled. I always thought
it's rather poor reason for 20 years of hatred.

>>As a matter of fact, if I was a witch, I'd be
>> only too happy to be able to call my boy Severus Snape Jr.

>Don't make fun of me! Are you saying you are not a witch? ;-)))))))

Mmmm... er... O.K., I'll admit it - I'm a hopeless Muggle. I can't even
prepare the simplest Love Potion and make Severus drink it <sigh>.

Monika Z.
(The Snape fan)

***
OT:
Czytalas moze tlumaczenie PoA? Moim zdaniem jest dosc infantylne, chociaz
moze to nie jest najlepsze okreslenie.
a bylas na tym zlocie Pottermaniakow w Warszawie?

Monika Z.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 13:41:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:41:38 -0000
Subject: H having to stay at Dursleys' (was Use of the Time-Turner)
In-Reply-To: <20010205132759.142.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <95maii+rmbu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11736

Anne wrote:

> I think he would have gone back to the Dursley's
> regardless. Remember there's some sort of protection
> for him as long as he's under their roof.
> 

That would've been a hell of a scene:  Harry planning to go live with 
(the cleared) Sirius and Dumbledore telling them, "Sorry, no."

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
  "Cool, sir!" said Dean Thomas in amazement.
  "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin.
                -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 13:53:17 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:53:17 -0000
Subject: That boring Harry guy
Message-ID: <95mb8d+79b6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11737

Cassie wrote:

> As for Harry being boring, as per an earlier argument, I am 
mystified
> that anyone can find brave, funny, scrappy, rulebreaking, vulnerable
> little Harry boring.

Add determined, honest, dishonest (he's both, and both are 
compelling), conflicted, devoted to his friends, smart, 
smart-assed, talented, angry, and possessing great integrity 
(integrity is the #1 character trait I admire in people, so why, why 
is there no adjective for it?).  After spending hundreds of hours in 
Harry's head, I still find him thoroughly interesting--I don't know 
what he's going to do at any given moment, but whatever he does is in 
character.  That's what I meant in an earlier post by saying JKR 
combines unpredictability and inevitability.

It's a good thing the wise chapter/character schedulers left Harry for 
last.  It's going to take more than a week to talk about him.

Amy
*please note*:
-R/H shipper
-not H/G shipper
-loves Harry
-and (as long as I'm tackling stereotypes):  left-wing, 
liberal-religionist homeschooler  ;-) (that was for you, Susan)

-------------------------------------------------------
   "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!"
said Fred indignantly.
   "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying
git," said George.  "Isn't he, Harry?"
   "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly.
                 --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------------------




From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Mon Feb  5 14:22:00 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 14:22:00 -0000
Subject: Chat transcript?
Message-ID: <95mcu8+10fcm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11738

Is the chat transcript from last night going to be made available 
like the others, or was it considered too embarassing/disturbing for 
public viewing? :-)

Keith




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Feb  5 14:32:31 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:32:31 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chat transcript?
In-Reply-To: <95mcu8+10fcm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEIDDCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 11739

Keith wrote: "Is the chat transcript from last night going to be made
available like the others, or was it considered too embarassing/disturbing
for public viewing? :-)"

I am surprised that you want to know where it is!

I have it saved and I was deciding about how to post it in 64k chunks to
avoid the silly problem of the web viewing only showing 64k. Or whether to
just post it in one large message as usual.

In the meantime I am trying to sleep off whatever illness it is that is
making me feel terrible. I have just woken up again and am about to have
some lunch. If I feel a bit better this afternoon then I will post the chat
script at (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HpforGrownupsChatScripts) else it
will be there at some stage in the next few days.


Simon






From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Mon Feb  5 16:19:21 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:19:21 -0000
Subject: Chat transcript?
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEIDDCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <95mjq9+nqsh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11740

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon.branford at h...> wrote:
> Keith wrote: "Is the chat transcript from last night going to be 
made
> available like the others, or was it considered too 
embarassing/disturbing
> for public viewing? :-)"
> 
> I am surprised that you want to know where it is!
> 
> I have it saved and I was deciding about how to post it in 64k 
chunks to
> avoid the silly problem of the web viewing only showing 64k. Or 
whether to
> just post it in one large message as usual.
> 
> In the meantime I am trying to sleep off whatever illness it is 
that is
> making me feel terrible. I have just woken up again and am about to 
have
> some lunch. If I feel a bit better this afternoon then I will post 
the chat
> script at (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HpforGrownupsChatScripts) 
else it
> will be there at some stage in the next few days.
> 
> 
> Simon

Thanks Simon, sorry to hear you're ill. How about posting it as a 
file?

Keith




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 16:29:30 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:29:30 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?/that boring Harry guy
In-Reply-To: <3A7DC9FD.449A699A@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95mkdb+6ojq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11741

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> I agree with Cassie (and Ebony) re: the stereotypes.  :--)

Me too - each of the trio are so mutil-faceted and really much more 
interesting than just their respective roles if they were plugged into 
your average adventure story or what have you.  If you were to try, 
what's to say Hermione doesn't fit the bill as the sidekick just as 
well as Ron does?  It's not that simple.  Nobody's the sidekick - 
they're all 3 very dear friends.  The only time I can bring myself to 
make those generalizations is for comparison with other stories and 
story types.  

> 
> As for the prefect issue -- I'm not even so sure about Hermione.  
How
> will the professors/staff feel about her close friendship with 2
> notorious rule-breakers?  :--)  Sure, she's got the grades and she's 
an
> obvious choice but for her association with her 2 best friends and 
her
> own past involvement in fairly serious rule-breaking.  I guess some 
of
> the things that she's done may not be known by the teachers 
(stealing
> the polyjuice potion ingredients from Snape's office for example).  
But,
> all in all, I'm not completely positive that she will be made 
prefect
> either.
> 


I guess it depends on who exactly makes the decisions.  But her 
rule-breaking has always been either in the general interests of the 
school, or in the interest of protecting others, so I think that would 
be considered.  Maybe they *want* someone who thinks for themselves 
and can make an informed decision even if it would otherwise go 
against policy?


> But, she's a much clearer choice than Harry or Ron.  Like Cassie, 
I'm
> not sure how their grades stack up with the other Gryffindors.  I 
have
> the feeling that they are both about average, perhaps slightly above
> average, as far as grades go.  But, more importantly, are they 
really
> the type students to be put in charge of seeing that everyone else
> adheres to the rules?  <g>


I was trying to imagine this last night when I was reading the 
suggestions.  If Harry or Ron were made prefect, I can't imagine 
either one of them *not* turning a blind eye to the misadventures of 
the others.  And if they *had* to be disciplinarians, I'm sure they'd 
be thoroughly embarrassed, if not completely disgusted to do so.  I'm 
sure Harry wouldn't want the job - not another reason to set him apart 
- ugh!
Hermione, on the other hand, would be flattered by the responsibility, 
and it would be interesting to see her try to reconcile it with her 
past and most likely continuing tendency to end up right in the middle 
of the rule-breaking whether she meant to or not.  And of course, 
she'll be torn between her perfectionist nature and her indulgence 
toward her incorrigible friends.  And I'm sure Fred and George would 
tease her some too - would be fun to see how she took that.  


> 
> I think my bet is on Hermione (Parvarti if not Hermione) and Dean
> Thomas.  Don't ask me why I chose Dean -- he just "seems" like he 
might
> be smarter than Seamus.  And, I figure Neville's potion grades are 
going
> to throw his overall grade average way down.  And, he'd never 
remember
> the password to let everyone into the Common Room.  <g>
> 


But wouldn't it be cool!
Maybe it's just what Neville needs, to be given a little 
responsibility.  Would be a great vote of confidence in him, which 
might make for a much needed ego-boost.  Seems like his finer moments 
are when he's looking out for the others.  Maybe if he focused on 
that, instead of worrying about what he can and can't do, he'd find 
himself far more capable than he ever believed...
Would be so cool to see him get the chance to live up to someone's 
*positive* expectations of him for a change.  Sweet Neville.  Have I 
mentioned how much I love underdogs?

Kimberly




From andrea at noembromation.com.br  Mon Feb  5 16:36:48 2001
From: andrea at noembromation.com.br (andrea at noembromation.com.br)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:36:48 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?
In-Reply-To: <20010205133032.430.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <95mkr0+6p7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11742

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- harry_potter00 at y... wrote:
> > Another thought is who will be prefects in the other
> > houses...I think 
> > Draco and Pansy will be the Slytherin prefects
> > (after all do we know 
> > any other Slytherin girls besides Pansy by name-I'm
> > to lazy to get 
> > the books and my brains not working)
> > 
> Lessee, there's Millicent Bulstrode and Susan Bones...


Actually, Susan Bones is a Hufflepuff. Remember, the Bones (aparently 
her parents) were also killed by Voldemort, so I believe no one in 
the family is in the Death-Eater crowd.

Andrea




From rgoertz at austin.rr.com  Mon Feb  5 17:12:01 2001
From: rgoertz at austin.rr.com (rgoertz at austin.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:12:01 -0000
Subject: Interview with Screenwriter
Message-ID: <95mmt1+cuce@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11743

Hi folks,

  On Aint-It-Cool-News there is an interview with Steven Kloves
who is the screenwriter for what appears to be the first
and second film. Pretty informative.

http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111

Cheers,

Ryan




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb  5 17:51:52 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:51:52 -0000
Subject: That boring Harry guy
In-Reply-To: <95mb8d+79b6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95mp7o+qj12@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11744

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Cassie wrote:
> 
> > As for Harry being boring, as per an earlier argument, I am 
> mystified
> > that anyone can find brave, funny, scrappy, rulebreaking, vulnerable
> > little Harry boring.
> 
> Add determined, honest, dishonest (he's both, and both are 
> compelling), conflicted, devoted to his friends, smart, 
> smart-assed, talented, angry, and possessing great integrity 
> (integrity is the #1 character trait I admire in people, so why, why 
> is there no adjective for it?).  After spending hundreds of hours in 
> Harry's head, I still find him thoroughly interesting--I don't know 
> what he's going to do at any given moment, but whatever he does is in 
> character.  That's what I meant in an earlier post by saying JKR 
> combines unpredictability and inevitability.

	I don't think I ever said canon Harry is boring. Canon Harry is a 
scrappy kid whose worst enemy is his own reputation. He's fascinating. 
	I just find turning him into an adult super-hero kind of 
redundant. It's overkill, IMHO. Doesn't mean it can't be done well, I 
just think its unneccessary.
Pippin





From Allyse at my-deja.com  Mon Feb  5 19:35:29 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:35:29 -0000
Subject: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
In-Reply-To: <95kkrk+jbdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95mva1+j0fp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11745

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., katgurl2k at y... wrote:
> They were messing with time regardless, my only point was why 
> couldn't they do it just in a different way.  They changed events 
by 
> making sure that Buckbeak wasn't killed.  Why couldn't they have 
gone 
> and made Lupin take his potion while he was alone, and it wouldn't 
> have interfered any more than they did in the book.
> 

First of all, greetings to all of you! I've been lurking for, oh, 
three or four weeks now. I always find that helpful. I've been 
tempted to jump in a few times, but I guess that now is the time. :)

Time travel has more theories than you can shake a Snitch at, but I 
very much like the position Jo uses in the books, which can be summed 
up like this:

The time-line had already been tampered with. Hoisted on their own 
petards, and all that.

Think about it. When Ron, Hermione and Harry are getting ready to use 
the cloak, they paused to listen before they passed through the 
entrance hall. What do they hear? Two sets of hurried footsteps, and 
a door slamming.

That was Hermione and Harry on their trip with the Time-Turner. 
(someone pointed this out on a dfft group and flabbergasted me, I 
can't take credit for it)

They heard the swishing of the axe, and the howling... because they'd 
already rescued Buckbeak.

Harry survived the dementors... Because he'd already come back to 
perform the Patronus.

They can't go back and change events, because it's already been 
changed. If they had gone to warn Lupin to take the potion, the 
incident with the transformation wouldn't have taken place in the 
first place. Or the second? :)

If past events are changed, then past memories would have to change 
too, as would any repercussions of those changes. So Jo wrote those 
three hours *after* the changes had already occurred, since that was 
the only things that *could* have happened.

She's good, isn't she? :)

Allyse, who will post more, perhaps, in the future




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Feb  5 19:44:10 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:44:10 -0000
Subject: musings: weather on Nov1-2, 1981
Message-ID: <95mvqa+bbd6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11746

Just wondering...

Jim McGuffin of the Muggle news promised a wet night the night of 
November 1-2, 1981. And they left poor little Harry lying there in 
nothing but a blanket?! Pretty WET blanket I'm guessing, by the time 
Petunia happened by some SIX hours later. And hey, I know Surry isn't 
Michigan, but isn't it a bit nippy in November in Britain? 

And hey, maybe the Dursleys simply couldn't READ the letter 
Dumbledore left them because it was soaked through and ruined. Hmmm...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
to which I just added a great Aunt Marge page ("Excellent nosh!")
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 19:50:05 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:50:05 -0000
Subject: That boring Harry guy
In-Reply-To: <95mp7o+qj12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95n05d+cg6m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11747

Pippin wrote:

> 	I don't think I ever said canon Harry is boring. Canon Harry 
is a 
> scrappy kid whose worst enemy is his own reputation. He's 
fascinating. 
> 	I just find turning him into an adult super-hero kind of 
> redundant. It's overkill, IMHO. Doesn't mean it can't be done well, 
I 
> just think its unneccessary.

Canon Harry is way more interesting than almost any fanon Harry I've 
encountered--but that's to be expected.  JKR's a better writer than 
all or most fanfic writers, and besides, Harry is her character--or 
rather, she's the person whose head he chose to stroll into.

Someone else confessed to finding (canon) Harry a bit boring--I think 
that's what started this thread.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------
"This is the weirdest thing we've ever
done," Harry said fervently.
       --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
----------------------------------------




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Feb  5 19:53:52 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:53:52 -0000
Subject: musings: weather on Nov1-2, 1981
In-Reply-To: <95mvqa+bbd6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95n0cg+f1vi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11748

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> Just wondering...
> 
> Jim McGuffin of the Muggle news promised a wet night the night of 
> November 1-2, 1981. And they left poor little Harry lying there in 
> nothing but a blanket?! Pretty WET blanket I'm guessing, by the 
time 
> Petunia happened by some SIX hours later. And hey, I know Surry 
isn't 
> Michigan, but isn't it a bit nippy in November in Britain? 
> 
> And hey, maybe the Dursleys simply couldn't READ the letter 
> Dumbledore left them because it was soaked through and ruined. 
Hmmm...
> 
A blanket which already had a comfort spell and a water repelling 
spell worked into the fabric - and maybe a little lavender in the 
blanket as well, as that is known for calming muggle babies, and must 
work wonders when its true magical properties are given free reign 
over baby wizards (even ones with great powers (sorry - had to get 
that in here : ))
And the letter had a water repelling spell too - Angie Astravic wrote 
a neat little fanfic called Under the Rosebushes where a certain 
Famous Witches & Wizards card set is enchanted "against all common 
types of parchment damage" - you should read the story, too! 
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/?action=story-read&storyid=21522




From andrea at noembromation.com.br  Mon Feb  5 19:54:51 2001
From: andrea at noembromation.com.br (andrea at noembromation.com.br)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:54:51 -0000
Subject: Interview with Screenwriter
In-Reply-To: <95mmt1+cuce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95n0eb+scvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11749

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rgoertz at a... wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
>   On Aint-It-Cool-News there is an interview with Steven Kloves
> who is the screenwriter for what appears to be the first
> and second film. Pretty informative.
> 
> http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ryan

Thanks so much for the link, Ryan. The interview is great, I feel so 
relieved, it seems they've got a good screenwriter, who has the right 
feel for the stories. Here's one thing he said:

'I said to one of (the execs) in the first meeting, I said, "Look. I 
don't want to be involved with this unless you share my feelings. The 
effects have to be great, all that stuff, but this movie will live 
and die on these kids. If we follow these kids, then the movie's 
going to work, but it would have to be about the character of these 
kids, Harry in particular, and it can't just be a roller coaster ride 
because it'll disappoint everybody that knows the book." '

And Jo seems to have enjoyed his script. Oh, and now, he's writing 
CoS.
My hopes have gone right up!

Andrea




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 19:56:31 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:56:31 -0000
Subject: musings: weather on Nov1-2, 1981
In-Reply-To: <95mvqa+bbd6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95n0hf+f919@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11750

Steve wrote:

> Jim McGuffin of the Muggle news promised a wet night the night of 
> November 1-2, 1981. And they left poor little Harry lying there in 
> nothing but a blanket?! Pretty WET blanket I'm guessing, by the time 
> Petunia happened by some SIX hours later. And hey, I know Surry 
isn't 
> Michigan, but isn't it a bit nippy in November in Britain? 
> 
> And hey, maybe the Dursleys simply couldn't READ the letter 
> Dumbledore left them because it was soaked through and ruined. 
Hmmm...
>

That was no ordinary blanket.  No ordinary diaper either, and no 
ordinary stationery.  The greatest wizard of the age can manage a few 
protective charms on these items before he leaves a baby on someone's 
doorstep.  (Anti-kidnapping, anti-dog, etc. would also come in handy.)

Going to go read the Lexicon's new Aunt Marge page now!

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
"I'm *not* going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
"That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
                      -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------------




From particle at urbanet.ch  Mon Feb  5 20:01:25 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:01:25 +0100
Subject: OT: harrypotterslash ML
References: <20010205045501.19414.qmail@nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <3A7F0694.50B635A7@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 11751

Alex Corvus wrote:

> Slash stories can romanticize men, but there's also plenty of slash that deals
> with darker sexuality, with obsession and violence, Rita mentioned rape, and I
> think it's because it gives some women the distance to examine their feelings
> about those issues when there's not the immediate identification of seeing
> them played out through female bodies. It also gives them the chance to
> examine both sides of the equation. I've seen what I consider a shocking
> amount of rapefic come across the harrypotterslash list (which is different
> from hpslash), particularly given the general age over there. At times I've
> rolled my eyes and wondered why poor Remus can't seem to step outside the
> Gryffindor common room without someone assaulting him. And if it's not Lupin,
> it's Draco. Good lord, the boy has been gang-raped and tortured and mutilated
> ... although with Draco, I think they're whumping him to try to engage the
> reader's sympathy, given he's not a particularly sympathetic character. If we
> can beat him up enough, maybe everyone will feel sorry for him. Anyway, why
> are teenaged girls - some of them barely into their teens - turning out
> rapefic? I'm not sure how many of those writers have a good theoretical handle
> on rape and its aftermath, and I might wish they'd handle the issue more
> responsibly, but they're certainly exploring issues of aggression and power,
> not only as victim but *as aggressor*, as possessor, when girls have
> traditionally been taught to squash aggression in themselves. Sex is
> undeniably one weapon of aggression, it's used to threaten other people all
> the time.

Warning: Covering some dark issues.

As a member of harrypotterslash, I thought I'd wander back into the conversation ^_~. First of all, I think there's a large number of teen girls there because, well, at the time the
list was founded, there was only one other HP slash ML - that one being hpslash - and it had an age restriction. I mean, what's a poor teenager to do when she can't go and read fics
about her fave pairings? That's why I joined that list, actually - I was getting tired of begging my 18-year-old friend to send me any not-too-hihghly-rated and well-written stories
from hpslash (yes, I know that's not allowed now; that rule didn't exist then as far as I know). So that's an element of the list I felt I should point out, that the population is
much younger than hpslash.

Secondly, I too was a little bit 'weirded out' by all those rapefics. It calmed down after a month or two, though, I haven't seen any pop up in a long time. Well, still some Draco
stuff occasionally, but I think that's because people want to put, er, a new twist on Draco's difficulties. Instead of Lucius beating Draco, Lucius beats Draco, and well...sheesh. I
agree with your analysis of the issue, but I also think it's partly because some of these writers (not all) are relatively new to writing, and so may want to delve into deeper,
darker subject matter, just to 'see if they can do it' (that's actually where some of my more off-the-wall fic ideas come from, although nothing like *this* so far ;) ). And, hey,
we're not all bad writers (only kidding).

- Firebolt




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Mon Feb  5 20:01:32 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:01:32 -0000
Subject: That boring Harry guy
In-Reply-To: <95mp7o+qj12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95n0qs+3fmm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11752


> 
Pip wrote:
	I don't think I ever said canon Harry is boring. Canon Harry 
is a 
> scrappy kid whose worst enemy is his own reputation. He's 
fascinating. I just find turning him into an adult super-hero kind of 
> redundant. It's overkill, IMHO. Doesn't mean it can't be done well, 
I  just think its unneccessary.
> Pippin

-----
Nooo, the "boring Harry" thread is quite unrelated to the "Super-
Harry" thread. A few people had said they found canon Harry a boring 
character, that's what started this Harry Is Darn Interesting 
business.

<g>

Cass




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Feb  5 20:12:04 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:12:04 -0000
Subject: musings: weather on Nov1-2, 1981
In-Reply-To: <95n0cg+f1vi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95n1ek+8oov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11753


> And the letter had a water repelling spell too - Angie Astravic 
wrote 
> a neat little fanfic called Under the Rosebushes where a certain 
> Famous Witches & Wizards card set is enchanted "against all common 
> types of parchment damage" - you should read the story, too! 
> http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/?action=story-read&storyid=21522


Now Heidi, you know I never read fanfic. Have to keep my headfull of 
Potter knowledge untainted. :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 20:47:35 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:47:35 -0000
Subject: My Bertie Bott's "special" flavor experience...
Message-ID: <95n3h7+r5b2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11754

Hey all.  I just did a search, and didn't find any flavor
descriptions of the "Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans" that are 
made by Jelly Belly, so I thought I'd write down my recent 
experience with their new "special" flavors.  Last night, my 
husband, daughter, and I went to Border's, and there was a 
display of little red bags of the beans, and I persuaded my 
husband I had to try one.  I didn't get around to actually 
tasting them until this morning, though.  Here are my opinions...

Grass: didn't get one, or if I did, I didn't realize it.

Black Pepper: kind of a sweet pepper taste.  Grossed my husband out.

Sardine: very mild bean with a slightly sweet (and very faint) fishy 
taste.

Buttered Toast:  Yummy!  Tastes a lot like brown sugar.

Pumpkin Pie: see Grass, above.

Strawberry Jam: very tasty

Horseradish: YUCK!  This is VERY HOT - the only one I had to spit out.

and of course, I have about 7 "booger" flavored ones that I just am 
WAY too afraid to try.  Anyone want me to send them a little baggie
of booger-flavored jelly beans?  There's no way I'm ever going to be 
brave enough to try them. ;)

My little "picture guide" to the flavors also tells me that this
fall, they're coming out with "dirt", "mustard", "vomit", and a ??? 
flavor.  Now that I know that the Pepper and Horseradish ones 
actually taste like they're supposed to, I'm NOT keen to try these 
new flavors, and I think I'll just stick to the regular Jelly 
Bellies, thank you very much.

Jen (who is still burping up a very yucky cantaloupe flavor)






From bkdelong at pobox.com  Mon Feb  5 20:59:23 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 15:59:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Bertie Bott's "special" flavor experience...
In-Reply-To: <95n3h7+r5b2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010205155856.05a6a7b0@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11755

At 08:47 PM 02/05/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Jen (who is still burping up a very yucky cantaloupe flavor)

I have full details plus pictures at:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/bertiebotts


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From bbennett at joymail.com  Mon Feb  5 21:36:24 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:36:24 -0000
Subject: My Bertie Bott's "special" flavor experience...
In-Reply-To: <95n3h7+r5b2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95n6co+7ogr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11756

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennifer Piersol" <jenP_97 at y...> wrote:
> Hey all.  I just did a search, and didn't find any flavor
> descriptions of the "Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans" that are 
> made by Jelly Belly, so I thought I'd write down my recent 
> experience with their new "special" flavors

I agree that the canteloupe flavor is disgusting, but can I just say 
that I actually like the horseradish and pepper? I found the sardine 
one to be much fishier that you did (that's the one I had to spit 
out). The grass does taste like grass (in my opinion), and I'll 
bravely admit that the booger indeed tastes like booger (or phlem, 
actually. Yeah, I know. Gag). 

I have a serious addiction problem to the strawberry jam flavored 
ones.

Brian, I'm heading over to visit your page. Thanks for the link.

Regards,
B.





From star_ling at crosswalkmail.com  Mon Feb  5 22:12:47 2001
From: star_ling at crosswalkmail.com (Star)
Date: 5 Feb 2001 14:12:47 -0800
Subject: thoughts (really sorry so long and a few days late)
Message-ID: <20010205221247.10249.cpmta@c001.snv.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11757

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010205/5167e362/attachment.ksh>

From drmm at fuuko.com  Mon Feb  5 22:49:19 2001
From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm at fuuko.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 22:49:19 -0000
Subject: Adios (for now)
Message-ID: <95nalf+pmug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11758

Hey all.  I thought I'd drop the list a note and say goodbye.  

It's getting into the time of semester where I'm going to have to 
start seriously working on my classes, one of which is a major 
research class.  And, as much as I love this group, I've decided that 
the time it takes to go through the huge volume of e-mail is a bit 
much for my schedule (I haven't read anything for the last several 
days, nor gotten anywhere close to responding to the posts I wanted 
to and writing the comparison between Hermione & Mrs. Weasley), so 
I've decided to unsubscribe . . . (if I went no-mail I wouldn't read 
it at all . . .).  If things work out, I should be graduating in May 
and *might* have more time on my hands and subscribe again . . . 

I'll still be on PoU (in web-only mode) for the fic and Snapefans to 
discuss the ever-confusing character of Snape. 

Anyway, it's been fun :)

Ja ne.

DrMM





From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 22:57:35 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 22:57:35 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks, UK eds, and London trip
Message-ID: <95nb50+7dt9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11759

Well today has been great and I wanted to share - I'm going to London 
in March and I bought my tickets today (King's Cross here I come!). 
Any Brits who want HP Stuff can email me, I'd be happy to bring 
things over as long as they are not toooo heavy. The same goes for 
Americans who want UK editions. If you think you can trust me. I'm on 
ebay as hadm if you want to look at my feedback. I'm honest I swear!

Also, I received my UK paperback boxed set of 1-3 today. Total cost? 
less than 20 pounds sterling (less than 30 bucks). That's because I 
bought them as a set for 14.40 and shipping was per item (so it was 
only one item!). It was rather quick - about a week! It's very 
exciting. Amazon.uk.co

And finally, here's somthing that puzzles me. Crookshanks is seen, 
esp in PoA, gadding about the castle and castle grounds at will. How 
does he get in and out of, first, the G. Tower and second, the castle 
itself? Does he just wait around until someone lets him in? if there 
are 400 students or 1000 students, it would still be hard for 
everyone to know him, thus knowing he's ok to let inside (if that 
makes sense). Also the tower... if the Fat Lady knows him (which I 
assume she does) does she make him sit outside until someone comes 
along, or does he give the password in cat, or does she just let him 
in? (I know this is weird, but i have a cat, and started to think...) 
What do you think?

Heather M. aka Dr. Aicha aka Aichambaye




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Feb  6 00:40:22 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:40:22 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Are you an artist? Design a logo for HPfGU!
Message-ID: <002201c08fd5$64386f40$e33670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11760

DESIGN A LOGO FOR THIS CLUB

Are you artistic?  Would you like to design a logo for HP4GU?  Then enter
our competition and win nothing!!  But before you unleash your creativity,
PLEASE read the rules and follow the instructions here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/11192

You can view entries to date, here (voting comes later):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logos.htm

If you have any comments or queries regarding this competition then please
contact Simon at simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk - including, in the
subject line: HP4GU - LOGO.

Thanks and good luck!.

HP4GU Mod Squad & FAQ Team

_____________________________________
Flying-Ford-Anglia

"My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms but 
one month into your fabulous Kwikspell course 
I succeeded in turning her into a yak!  
- Thank you Kwikspell!"

[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From duo at dangerous-minds.com  Tue Feb  6 09:30:00 2001
From: duo at dangerous-minds.com (duo at dangerous-minds.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:30 PHT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
Message-ID: <200102060124.f161OXh10741@mail.i-next.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11761

>katgurl2k at yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> They were messing with time regardless, my only point was why couldn't
>> they do it just in a different way.  They changed events by making
>> sure that Buckbeak wasn't killed.  Why couldn't they have gone and
>> made Lupin take his potion while he was alone, and it wouldn't have
>> interfered any more than they did in the book.

And Amanda replied:

>The best answer to this is, I think, the one that someone gave earlier
>to another time-turner question: they didn't do it because they hadn't.
>If they'd have gone back and had Lupin take his potion, the effect would
>have been that he'd taken it the first time around, and there would have
>been no impetus for them to go back in time--nothing for them to fix. As
>the book stands, they didn't go back and *change* anything; they went
>back to make sure it happened the way it actually happened. for the
>events to take place as they did, they had to have been there both as
>originally experiencing it and as time-turners. They changed none of the
>events; they were the other half of the events that had already taken
>place.

Which then begs the snake-tail biting question, how did they know that 
they were supposed to be in two places at once? Of course, I can answer
my own question by saying that there's nothing stopping you from being
two places at once as long as it can't be observed that you WERE in two
places at once. But this sounds rather awkward, anyone have any better
ideas?

Excuse me while I get the Bonamine... @_@

Nathan
@work 
_________________________________________________________
Powered by I-neXt WebM at iL - http://www.i-next.net



From find_sam at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 02:04:22 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 02:04:22 -0000
Subject: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
In-Reply-To: <95k63a+5bvp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95nm36+td6p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11762

> Wouldn't it have made more 
> sense to go back to before they went to the Shrieking Shack and 
make 
> sure that Lupin took his potion?  Then they would have been able to 
> keep Peter and it would have been sorted out so that Harry could 
have 
> gone to live with Sirius.  It doesn't make sense.

Well, if you think about it, it DOES make sense. If Harry'd gone back 
and told Lupin to take his potion, then history would have been 
changed and there never would have been any reason for Harry to tell 
Lupin to take his potion, thus Lupin would never have taken the 
potion, get it? If Harry'd told Lupin to take his potion, he would 
have been stuck in a grandfather-esque paradox. 

It's not impossible that JKR herself considered this, realised there 
was no way to effectively write 'around' the paradox, and simply went 
on to use the storyline found in PoA, which - more or less - makes 
perfect sense.




From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Feb  6 02:11:07 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 02:11:07 -0000
Subject: Interview with Screenwriter
In-Reply-To: <95n0eb+scvp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95nmfr+9tko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11763

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., andrea at n... wrote:

> My hopes have gone right up!
> 
> Andrea

Oh, me too! I also liked what he said about JKR:

We just sort of hit it off from the beginning. I realized that in the 
writing, probably who I wanted to please the most, and it 
continues to this day, is her. So far it's been real nice. She 
seems happy and that's been great because she's really one of 
the coolest people on the planet. I mean, she's just... 
it's not what you expect.

I'm smiling now .

B.





From pbnesbit at msn.com  Tue Feb  6 03:01:57 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 03:01:57 -0000
Subject: Interview with Screenwriter
In-Reply-To: <95nmfr+9tko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95npf5+dceh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11764

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., andrea at n... wrote:
> 
> > My hopes have gone right up!
> > 
> > Andrea
> 
> Oh, me too! I also liked what he said about JKR:
> 
> We just sort of hit it off from the beginning. I realized that in 
the 
> writing, probably who I wanted to please the most, and it 
> continues to this day, is her. So far it's been real nice. She 
> seems happy and that's been great because she's really one of 
> the coolest people on the planet. I mean, she's just... 
> it's not what you expect.
> 
> I'm smiling now .
> 
> B.

Add me to the list!  I breathed a *huge* sigh of relief after reading 
the interview.  I also liked that he seems to understand that the 
*people* (especially the kids) are what's important.  (Although I 
must confess:  I'm looking forward to the broomstick sequences!) 

I'm smiling now too, B.

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 03:29:56 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 03:29:56 -0000
Subject: HP Toy ideas (was: Stuffed Snitches, other gaak)
In-Reply-To: <95l4p4+f0n6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95nr3k+lkqj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11765

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:
> -Flying car model kit- just as it sounds, a 1/25 scale plastic 
model 
> kit of a Ford Anglia 105E, prepainted as a turquoise Deluxe, with 
> Harry, Ron and Hedwig figures and a flight stand. (Police equipment 
> and decals to replicate Neil's current alternate form optional.)

NEWS FLASH! Since posting the above, I've fornd out that Revell's 
German subsidiary is launching a new line of model planes that use 
magnetic resistance to hover over their bases (which have intricately 
detailed "ground" patterns- no big plastic stand, just a tiny, almost 
invisible filament to keep the model above the stands.
 Please please PLEASE can we have the flying car kit done like this!




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Feb  6 03:49:45 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:49:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secret Snape (filk)
References: <981301438.159.42041.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002001c08fef$d8e02da0$1cc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11766

Secret Snape (from GoF, Ch. 36)

Dedicated to Monika Zaboklicka (who asked for a Snape filk)

(To the tune of Secret Agent Man)

THE SCENE: Madam Pomfrey's infirmary. Resting in bed is HARRY POTTER, and
sitting beside him is RON WEASLEY. ALBUS DUMBLEDORE, after the departure of
a skeptical Cornelius Fudge, is laying the groundwork for a renewed campaign
against Voldemort. He turns his attention to SEVERUS SNAPE.

DUMBLEDORE (spoken)
Severus....you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready....if you
are prepared....

SNAPE
I am.

DUMBLEDORE (music)
Here's a wizard known for his great potions

SNAPE
Just give the word, I'll set this thing in motion
'Cause my dark mark's all ablaze
>From this old Death-Eater craze
If only it'd rub off with just some lotion

ALL
He is Snape, our man!
Secert Snapester man!

DUMBLEDORE
He'll dispatch every Dark Wizard on the road to Azkaban

SNAPE
Some of you think you know all about me
But crushing Voldy you can't do without me
So do not check the Lost and Found
'Cause I'll be going underground
I'll deduct 55 points if you dare to doubt me

ALL
He is Snape, our man!
Secret Snapester man!

HARRY & RON
We've no idea what he's up to, let's just hope that it's a plan.

(Exit severally)

  - CMC




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Tue Feb  6 03:54:11 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 03:54:11 -0000
Subject: Secret Snape (filk)
In-Reply-To: <002001c08fef$d8e02da0$1cc54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <95nsh3+mt5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11767

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Secret Snape (from GoF, Ch. 36)
> 
> Dedicated to Monika Zaboklicka (who asked for a Snape filk)
> 
> Thank you, Caius--it's wonderful.  I'm not Monika, just a dedicated 
Snapefan.  

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb  6 04:02:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 22:02:43 -0600
Subject: SHIP: RE: semi-formal analysis (Naama's logic)
References: <95m7k4+jv4a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A7F7763.2076A0D0@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11768

Hi --

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> > > The thing is that, generally speaking, a person is not indifferent
> to
> > > the romantic interest somebody has for him/her. How often has it
> > > happened (especially to women) that they ended falling in love
> with a
> > > guy they hadn't even noticed before he showed interest in them?
> Part
> > > of human nature, isn't it?
> >
> OK. As to my "formal analysis", if you really see more evidence to Her
> liking H than Her liking Ron than you definitely pull the rug from
> under my feet. My argument is indeed irrelevant.

Yeah, I do actually see stronger evidence that Hermione likes Harry
rather than Hermione likes Ron (not necessarily "more" evidence, but
"stronger" evidence in my mind).

> The real point here is: "there is so much of gratitude or vanity in
> almost every attachment". I'll call it the "flattery factor".
> As I see it, the flattery factor's effect is to calls attention to a
> person who might otherwise not be noticed (romantically). It also
> creates.. I don't quite know how to describe it - maybe an *initial*
> positive attitude towards him/her. You start inspecting the guy/girl
> as a possible mate. You may of course immediately reject him/her. I
> too have
> been smitten with men who didn't want me <fools!> and vice versa.
> Also, if you're an insecure sort of person (I am) you might not even
> acknowledge to yourself the "latent romantic/physcial interest" you
> have for a person. When the other person shows interest in you, you
> then feel safe to admit to yourself that you do find him/her
> attractive.
> I do not agree with Charlotte about the "much", BTW. From my
> experience the flattery factor certainly has an effect but I wouldn't
> say its a major factor in how (and if) the romantic relationship
> evolves. That has to do with suitability on many different levels.

Thanks -- this explains your thoughts a bit better.  I think what you
term the Flattery Factor figures somewhat in some relationships, but by
no means all of them.  Otherwise everyone's "first crush" would win the
game, right?  <g>

> Now to the (not so) diplomatic allegation of sexism:
> Well, I wrote "Especially women" because it is still more usual for
> men to take the initiative in courting. Its more often *he* who shows
> an interest in *her*. This is an "is" statement, not "should". If it
> is not the case in your experience, in your culture, then "especially
> women" would not be true.

Hmmm .... I still disagree.  I asked my husband . . . his recollection
is that I showed far more interest in him initially than he did in me
(and we were *best friends* at the time).  <g>  We thought about our
circle of friends and family members ... and concluded that it would be
outdated in our minds to say that it is most often the man who takes the
initiative in courting.  I suppose it must be different in your
experience though.

> Inherently I think that men are just as susceptible as women to the
> flattery factor (but see reservation below). I know of several happily
> married couples where it was the woman who "pursued" the man. Although
> Ginny's crush on Harry is too awkward and gauche to be anything but
> embarassing for Harry right now, if she matures and becomes more
> subtle about it, her interest in Harry may certainly play a parallel
> role to Ron's feelings for Hermione (in fact, I think it will).

Or ... if, like me, you believe that Hermione has interest in Harry,
then the Flattery Factor might well affect Harry's appraisal of Hermione
at some later point.  Yes?  <g>

> Reservation: There might be a difference in a man's reaction due to
> the cultural conditioning (which I think still exists in some measure)
> that it is the man who should take the initiative. If a man is brought
> up with this conditioning he might be embarassed and even repulsed by
> a woman's taking an active interest in him (speculation - he might
> perhaps feel feminized? is that the problem men had/have with women on
> top?).

I still maintain that this is an outdated concept for the most part.
Not to say that some men don't still have this hang-up, but I don't
think it's the 1950s anymore.

I definitely don't see Hermione fitting into the role of a woman who
would be unduly swayed by the Flattery Factor.  I see her as a "follow
your heart" kind of gal.  If her heart has special feelings for Ron,
then his interest will certainly aid the whole awkward dating process.
But, if her heart is set on Harry (or someone else or ... just *not* on
Ron for whatever reason), I don't think she'll do anything but let Ron
down gently & with compassion.

Look at Krum as an example -- granted we don't know for sure how things
will play out between Krum & Hermione.  But, my guess is that she was
flattered to go to the Ball with him -- older guy, her first real date,
he's a "big deal", etc.  But, it seemed to me that she was a bit
overwhelmed by how much interest he had in her after the Yule Ball, and
I don't think she had serious intentions with regard to him.  I think
she was happy to go with him to the Ball and liked getting to know him
but wasn't ready for serious relationship & all that.  So .... my guess
is that the Flattery Factor (Krum's obvious interest) probably didn't,
in the end, get him anywhere with her.  I could be proven wrong of
course but that's just my take on it.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Feb  6 04:23:54 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:23:54 -0800
Subject: Stereotypes - Susan Bones - Wet Night - Crookshanks - Shipping 
Message-ID: <3A7F7C58.3D972D3E@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11769

Carole wrote:
> What kind of stereotyping was going on in your head to think
> that he would treat his kids otherwise?  Just because he's a man,
> or  is it because he's conservative, or religious?  Which one of those

> should have made him the type not to hug and kiss his kids?

I know that I'm guilty of stereotyping, but I have worked with a couple
of retired cops, and they matched my stereotype ... that police
officers, even former police officers, show their affection for male
(friends, relatives, sons) more by punching them in the shoulder and
telling them a joke than by hugging and kissing. It seems to me that not
long ago (in geologic time!), that style of showing affection was taken
for granted about ALL heterosexual males, not just the ones with
militaristic experience.

andrea at n...  wrote:
> Actually, Susan Bones is a Hufflepuff. Remember, the Bones (apparently

> her parents) were also killed by Voldemort, so I believe no one in
> the family is in the Death-Eater crowd.

YES! Susan Bones is in Hufflepuff. JKR said in an on-line chat that it
was her GRANDPARENTS who were the Bones whose murder Hagrid mentioned. I
plan that that murder will take place in episode 5 or 6 of my Lilyfic.

Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> Jim McGuffin of the Muggle news promised a wet night the night of
> November 1-2, 1981. And they left poor little Harry lying there in
> nothing but a blanket?

Maybe Dumbledore's interference (a Fine Weather spell -- Neil said that
in Latin back on the Yahoo Club) was what spoiled Jim McGuffin's
prediction and made him look bad.

Heather M. aka Dr. Aicha aka Aichambaye wrote:
> Well today has been great and I wanted to share - I'm going to
> London  in March and I bought my tickets today (King's Cross here
> I come!).

Cheers for you! Have a great time!

Heather M. aka Dr. Aicha aka Aichambaye wrote:
> And finally, here's something that puzzles me. Crookshanks is seen,
> esp in PoA, gadding about the castle and castle grounds at will. How
> does he get in and out of, first, the G. Tower and second, the castle
itself?

I have long believed that even Muggle cats can teleport.  And even
Muggle cats are very good at secret passages ... one of mine once got
out of the apartment through the smoke vent in the kitchen ceiling,
which I still believe to be impossible... There is a saying (I believe
the physicist J.B.S. Haldane said it before Mr. Spock did) that: "If it
exists, then it must be possible" but I'm not convinced that that
applied to cats: when I see my Taliesin climbing up my closet door, I
shout at him: "Taliesin! Stop doing that, you KNOW it's impossible!"

I WATCH THE SHIPPER DEBATES and mourn that I can offer no evidence from
canon, no evidence from books about marriage counselling, but only a
statement about what *I* can and can't imagine.  The only circumstance
in which I can imagine Ron and Hermione having a romantic, sexual, or
marriage relationship that lasts longer than briefly is IF Harry died
and his death traumatised both of them so much that they each dedicated
the rest of their life to enshrining his memory, and after several years
(I'm thinking 10, but 5 might be enough), they both got the idea that,
being as how they like each other as friends, and they have the same
obsession, and they've worked together well on projects, and neither of
them has anything even vaguely resembling a love life, it would make
sense for them to get married and have a son named Harry and a daughter
named Harriet and a son named James and a daughter named Lily and a son
named Cedric and a daughter named Alba...

Even if those of us are correct who speculate that the longer life and
slower aging of wizarding folk means witches are still fertile into
their 60s, one witch couldn't have enough children to be namesakes for
ALL the people killed by V, but she could have something like 15 or 20
children, which (as this is Hermione and Ron I'm talking about) would be
good for the gene pool. Dead Weasleys (with possible exception of aunts
and uncles who died before Ron was born) are commemorated by MIDDLE
names, as Ron *still* tends to choke up and get teary when hearing the
names of his lost family members.

So I hope it is quite clear that when I said only if Harry died, that
was NOT to get him out of the way.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 05:00:03 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 05:00:03 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: RE: Krum and the Second Task (was semi-formal...)
Message-ID: <F231ODt9Cz93MgPPf3L00006a74@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11770

Had to second our captain's excellent logic here...

>Look at Krum as an example -- granted we don't know for sure how things
>will play out between Krum & Hermione.  But, my guess is that she was
>flattered to go to the Ball with him -- older guy, her first real date,
>he's a "big deal", etc.  But, it seemed to me that she was a bit
>overwhelmed by how much interest he had in her after the Yule Ball, and
>I don't think she had serious intentions with regard to him.  I think
>she was happy to go with him to the Ball and liked getting to know him
>but wasn't ready for serious relationship & all that.  So .... my guess
>is that the Flattery Factor (Krum's obvious interest) probably didn't,
>in the end, get him anywhere with her.  I could be proven wrong of
>course but that's just my take on it.
>

Let's take a look at that passage from GoF, shall we?

********

"Harry, well done!"  Hermione cried.  "You did it, you found out how all by 
yourself!"

"Well--" said Harry.  He would have told her about Dobby, but he had just 
noticed Karkaroff watching him.  He was the only judge who had not left the 
table; the only judge not showing signs of pleasure and relief that Harry, 
Ron, and Fleur's sister had got back safely.  "Yeah, that's right," said 
Harry, raising his voice slightly so that Karkaroff could hear him.

"You haff a water beetle in your hair, Herm-own-ninny," said Krum.  Harry 
had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself; 
perhaps to remind her that he had just rescued her from the lake, but 
Hermione brushed away the beetle ****impatiently**** and said, "You're well 
outside the time limit, though, Harry... Did it take you ages to find us?"

"No... I found you okay..."

(p. 304-305, Scholastic ed., emphasis mine)

**************

Passage speaks for itself, doesn't it?  (Ron-like, matter-of-fact nod.)  
Now, no one is saying that it's an H/H support... so spare the list *that* 
comment, please.  Not even H/Hers use it.

BUT--the passage does rather debunk the notion that Hermione is going to go 
swooning into some boy's arms just because he happens to show some interest 
in her.  Now *that* is not canon.

Ron should know better.  He's her best friend.  Hopefully Ron won't follow 
in Krum's footsteps.  Wouldn't *that* be sad?

--Ebony (who laughs at the notion that shippers don't read canon, and H/H 
shippers in particular... the majority of H/H shippers have only read canon 
and don't feel the need to explain their position... because... we know what 
we know! <eg>)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb  6 05:27:55 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 05:27:55 -0000
Subject: Secret Snape (filk)
In-Reply-To: <002001c08fef$d8e02da0$1cc54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <95o20r+loas@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11771

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Secret Snape (from GoF, Ch. 36)
> 
> Dedicated to Monika Zaboklicka (who asked for a Snape filk)
>

Now why didn't I think of that? Brilliant, Caius.
Pippin exits, singing.





From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Tue Feb  6 05:37:33 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:37:33 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks/Animal Population at Hogwarts
Message-ID: <28.10ca8bd2.27b0e79d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11772

In a message dated 2/5/2001 6:01:44 PM EST, aichambaye at yahoo.com writes:

<< And finally, here's somthing that puzzles me. Crookshanks is seen, 
 esp in PoA, gadding about the castle and castle grounds at will. How 
 does he get in and out of, first, the G. Tower and second, the castle 
 itself? Does he just wait around until someone lets him in? if there 
 are 400 students or 1000 students, it would still be hard for 
 everyone to know him, thus knowing he's ok to let inside (if that 
 makes sense). Also the tower... if the Fat Lady knows him (which I 
 assume she does) does she make him sit outside until someone comes 
 along, or does he give the password in cat, or does she just let him 
 in? (I know this is weird, but i have a cat, and started to think...) 
 What do you think?
  >>
Good questions.  I have no answers, but I'll add one -- we've tried to 
estimate the size of the student population at Hogwarts.  Anyone want to take 
a stab at estimating the size of the animal population?  Probably not every 
single student brings an animal companion, but judging by the cat population 
around my apartment complex, things really should be pretty darned noisy 
around Hogwarts <g> -- or do we think that almost everyone has an owl rather 
than a cat or other animal friend (except Dumbledore, Filch, Ron, Hermione 
and Neville)?

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Feb  6 06:06:40 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:06:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  That boring Harry guy
Message-ID: <200102060609.f16698C28980@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11773

Pippin wrote:
>  I don't think I ever said canon Harry is boring. Canon Harry is a
>scrappy kid whose worst enemy is his own reputation. He's fascinating.
>I just find turning him into an adult super-hero kind of
>redundant. It's overkill, IMHO. Doesn't mean it can't be done well, I
>just think its unneccessary.


Thank you Pippin!  I think I'm actually the one who started this whole 
finding-Harry-boring (ducks head sheepishly) thing and that was really what I 
meant.  Of course Harry isn't boring; would I be wading through hundreds of 
email per day about him if I really thought so?  But as far as romantic 
pairings, if I were to choose, I would pick fun-time Ron over boring Harry in 
a second.  (Hmmm, Fun Time Ron, a new action figure perhaps?)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Feb  6 06:10:29 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:10:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Use of the Time-Turner to Help Sirius in PoA
Message-ID: <200102060612.f166CwC29327@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11774

Allyse wrote:
>Think about it. When Ron, Hermione and Harry are getting ready to use
>the cloak, they paused to listen before they passed through the
>entrance hall. What do they hear? Two sets of hurried footsteps, and
>a door slamming.
>That was Hermione and Harry on their trip with the Time-Turner.
>(someone pointed this out on a dfft group and flabbergasted me, I
>can't take credit for it)

I am flabbergasted.  I never caught that one...in over 20 
readings/listenenings...wow, I caught the axe thing and I got the whole 
can't-mess-with-time-because-it-was-already-messed--with-thing, but I never 
once caught the footsteps.  Wow.

Thanks, Allyse, for giving me an excuse to reread my favorite book!  (Not that 
I really need one...)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Feb  6 06:15:43 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 06:15:43 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks/Animal Population at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <28.10ca8bd2.27b0e79d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <95o4qf+ua9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11775

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> Anyone want to take a stab at estimating the size of the animal
> population?  Probably not every single student brings an animal
> companion, but judging by the cat population around my apartment
> complex, things really should be pretty darned noisy around
> Hogwarts <g> 

The description of Harry's first sight of Platform 9 3/4:
"Smoke from the engine drifted over the heads of the chattering 
crowd, while cats of every color wound here and there between their 
legs. Owls hooted to one another in a disgruntled sort of way over 
the babble and the scraping of heavy trunks."

There are a LOT of cats and a LOT of owls. Altho' I believe that 
'cats of every color' means only 'of every cat color', rather than 
blue and purple and green cats. (Don't anyone give me an argument 
about blue being a cat color for Russian, Maltese, etc Blues -- their 
color LOOKS silver or pewter even tho' it is named blue.)





From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Feb  6 06:14:33 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:14:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Bertie Bott's "special" flavor experience...
Message-ID: <200102060617.f166H3C29888@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11776

Jen wrote:
>and of course, I have about 7 "booger" flavored ones that I just am
>WAY too afraid to try.  Anyone want me to send them a little baggie
>of booger-flavored jelly beans?  There's no way I'm ever going to be
>brave enough to try them. ;)

Actually, the booger-flavored ones don't taste like much of anything.  They're 
just kind of bland.

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who has stayed away from her Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans after a bad 
horseradish experience




From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Feb  6 06:34:18 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:34:18 -0500
Subject: SHIP: Viktor & Hermione sitting in a tree
Message-ID: <200102060636.f166aqC01910@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11777

Penny wrote:
>Look at Krum as an example -- granted we don't know for sure how things
>will play out between Krum & Hermione.  But, my guess is that she was
>flattered to go to the Ball with him -- older guy, her first real date,
>he's a "big deal", etc.  But, it seemed to me that she was a bit
>overwhelmed by how much interest he had in her after the Yule Ball, and
>I don't think she had serious intentions with regard to him.  I think
>she was happy to go with him to the Ball and liked getting to know him
>but wasn't ready for serious relationship & all that.

Pssst!  Hey Penny!  We actually agree on something again!  (I think that 
brings it up to 4; we really should start keeping a list. <g>)

This actually made me think of something I wanted to bring up here.  Penny, in 
your review of one of the recent parts of my fanfic, you mentioned that you 
had thought that Hermione had gotten to know Viktor fairly well before he 
asked her to the Yule Ball.  My assumption was that she had not, because a) 
there were only a few weeks between the First Task (i.e. the time Harry would 
have been in the library with her) and the announcement of the Ball  and b) 
Viktor and Hermione's conversation at the Yule Ball (i.e. him telling her 
about his school) seemed very introductory to me, a topic they would have 
already talked about if they had spoken at any great length.  (Not to mention 
the proper pronunciation of her name--Hermione doesn't strike me as the type 
to let someone get away with that mistake for very long!)

Now granted, Viktor could have started talking to her as soon as Harry was 
back on speaking terms with Ron and no longer hanging out in the library.  And 
realistically, Viktor was telling Hermione about his school and she was 
teaching him how to say her name because the author needed the reader to see 
those things.  But still, my impression was always that they had spoken very 
little, if at all, before Viktor asked her to the Ball.

I was just curious what other people thought?

Kathy 
AKA Elanor Gamgee

P.S. Penny, thanks for reviewing my story even though it's against your 
religion, so to speak. :)  Also, thanks for pointing out the hole that I was 
hoping no one would notice and motivating me to fix something that had been 
bugging me.  Zsenya helped me fix it and I'm going to upload the revised 
version tomorrow.




From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Tue Feb  6 08:32:54 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:32:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secret Snape (filk)
Message-ID: <01c09017$666de6e0$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11778



>Secret Snape (from GoF, Ch. 36)
>
>Dedicated to Monika Zaboklicka (who asked for a Snape filk)
>


Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I LOVE it!

Monika Z.




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 13:16:21 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 05:16:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  - Susan Bones 
In-Reply-To: <3A7F7C58.3D972D3E@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <20010206131621.9644.qmail@web5205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11779


--- Catlady <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> andrea at n...  wrote:
> > Actually, Susan Bones is a Hufflepuff. Remember,
> the Bones (apparently
> 
> > her parents) were also killed by Voldemort, so I
> believe no one in
> > the family is in the Death-Eater crowd.
> 
> YES! Susan Bones is in Hufflepuff. JKR said in an
> on-line chat that it
> was her GRANDPARENTS who were the Bones whose murder
> Hagrid mentioned. I
> plan that that murder will take place in episode 5
> or 6 of my Lilyfic.
> 
OK, that clears it up. I remembered there was a Susan
Bones, and it seemed to me there were Bones' named
among the death Eaters. I put the two together and
came to the wrong conclusion. Note to self: your
memory's not what it used to be; check the books
first! ;-)

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 13:42:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 13:42:53 -0000
Subject: That boring Harry guy
In-Reply-To: <200102060609.f16698C28980@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <95ov0t+kc89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11780

> Pippin wrote:
> >  I don't think I ever said canon Harry is boring. Canon Harry is a
> >scrappy kid whose worst enemy is his own reputation. He's 
fascinating.
> >I just find turning him into an adult super-hero kind of
> >redundant. It's overkill, IMHO. Doesn't mean it can't be done well, 
I
> >just think its unneccessary.
> 

Kathy aka Elanor wrote:

> Thank you Pippin!  I think I'm actually the one who started this 
whole 
> finding-Harry-boring (ducks head sheepishly) thing and that was 
really what I 
> meant.  Of course Harry isn't boring; would I be wading through 
hundreds of 
> email per day about him if I really thought so?  But as far as 
romantic 
> pairings, if I were to choose, I would pick fun-time Ron over boring 
Harry in 
> a second.

Oh wow, Kathy, this is fuel on the fire!  Harry has the makings of a 
seriously attractive man.  I don't mean the way he looks--I mean depth 
of soul.

Aging them up 15 years or so, of course <g>, I would definitely prefer 
Harry to Ron.  But to each his/her own, no accounting for tastes, 
chacun a son gout, etc.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
 "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
                   -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 15:13:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:13:30 -0000
Subject: OT: query for Canadians
Message-ID: <95p4aq+jce1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11781

Hi,

Could any Canadians on the list tell me offlist what's the going rate 
for the books in stores (paperback for those available in paper, 
hardcover for the others)?  I want to get the UK version, I'd rather 
buy from stores than chapters.ca, and I'm wondering whether to wait 
'til the next time I go to Canada and buy them there.  You can e-mail 
me offlist; my domain is hotmail.com.

Thanks a bunch!
Amy Z




From msl at fc.net  Tue Feb  6 15:18:56 2001
From: msl at fc.net (Marvin Long, Jr.)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:18:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Wormtail and Wormtongue
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10102060846060.94711-100000@freeside.fc.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11782


(I didn't find this topic discussed in the archives, so I hope not to be
repeating an old thread...)

Who's read "The Screwtape Letters" by CS Lewis?  If you have, you'll
recall that they are a series of letters from a senior devil, Screwtape,
to his young nephew, Wormtongue, about how to tempt human beings away from
God.  His favorite tactics involve exacerbating a person's physical,
emotional, and social fears while simultaneously encouraging to excess the
human desires to consume and control.

It occurs to me that the names "Wormtongue" and "Wormtail" are too alike
to be a coincidence.  Therefore, I'm wondering to what degree the
relationship between Voldemort and Wormtail parallels the one between
Screwtape and Wormtongue.  Obviously Wormtail is not a devil or demon;
indeed, he resembles the seduced more than the seducee.  On the other
hand, Wormtongue's penalty for failure is to be consumed himself, and in
GoF we find Wormtail being consumed by Voldemort--his hand is cut off
because their joint plan to destroy the Potters failed 14 years ago.

I wonder if as time goes on we will find Pettigrew being used for parts
even more often.  In addition to his metal hand he might get other
artificial body parts, becoming physically much stronger than he had ever
been when he was just himself but at the same time becoming less himself
whenever he sacrifices another pound of flesh to Voldemort.

Or would that just make Wormtail into Darth Vader (more machine than man)?
Now I'm confused!

Anyway, if we look at what we know of Pettigrew's seduction by Voldemort,
we can see that it boils down to the sin of despair.  In PoA his 
excuse is that Voldemort's victory looked so certain, so what's the point
of resisting?  It's the same state of mind that Wormtongue spends the
Screwtape Letters trying to instill in his human "client."

Deep thought question, related to the question of who might betray Harry
and his friends: is there anybody in the Potter series currently
susceptible to the same temptation to despair?  Are they any likely to be 
tempted by Pettigew himself?  I don't think any of our trio really
qualify; they've had too much experience with Voldemort and Wormtail
to be fooled.  There's Ginny, who might be weakened by her experience with
Tom Riddle.  There's Neville, but his will might be fortified by his
regular visits to his parents...or it might be broken by the same.  The
Slytherins we've met, all uniformly nasty, probably don't need much
temptation, and we can presume that Snape has already passed that test, I
think.  There's Hagrid, so brave on the one hand but so emotional on the
other; he would never consciously betray the good guys, but he might be
deceived.

As for the Death Eaters, they seem to fit perfectly the model for the
seduced.  What they fear is loss of status to mudbloods; they might also
fear that Muggle technology will outstrip the power of magic and so be
planning a sort of pre-emptive coup.  And of course, their lust for power
drives them to Voldemort's banner.

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 15:36:08 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:36:08 -0000
Subject: Another Wormtongue
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10102060846060.94711-100000@freeside.fc.net>
Message-ID: <95p5l8+nmqu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11783

Fascinating post, Marvin.

There is another Wormtongue in fiction who needs a mention:  The 
Lord of the Rings' Grima, nicknamed Wormtongue, who is a servant of 
Theoden of Rohan but goes over to Saruman.
  
I have to head to work so I don't have time to think out the 
parallels--maybe some other LOTR fan wants to run with it--but the 
basic pattern of betrayal and cowardice is there.  And I love your 
analysis that Wormtail's temptation is despair--the same with Grima, I 
would say off the top of my head.

Putting The Screwtape Letters on my must-read list,
Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------
Ron peered into Harry's teacup, his forehead
wrinkled with effort.  "There's a blob a bit
like a bowler hat," he said.  "Maybe you're 
going to work for the Ministry of Magic. . . ."
               -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 15:40:10 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:40:10 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks/ Animal pop
Message-ID: <95p5sq+kivg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11784

Thanks to those who told me to have a good time in the UK!

OK last night after I posted my Crookshanks question, I read my new 
UK edition Philosophers Stone, and noticed that there were a LOT of 
animals at the station. 

If there are 1000 students, which JKR says (I know lots disagree, but 
hang on a sec), and we can assume that every second person at least 
has a pet (there are two pets in the 4 weasley kids and they are not 
the richest wizarding family), and 2/3 of our main characters have 
pets (if you count scabbers at first)... and we assume that most 
people DON'T have toads, except Neville (after all, they're out of 
fashion), then 1 of 2 students have pets and 1 of 2 pets are owls... 
that's 250 or so owls and 250 or so cats (this by evidence and by 
JKR's statement)... 

If there are fewer students, say 600, then the rest of the logic 
holds... but there are more like 150 owls and 150 cats. 

Either way, that's a LOT of cats, but then it's a BIIIIIG castle. 
Millicent Bulstode has a cat and Hermione didn't know until it was 
too late... so there is no reason to know all these people have cats 
unless they are roaming around... like Mrs. Norris and Crookshanks. 

I think Crookshanks is a regular cat, no extra powers... but then I 
have a cat and I think she's less Muggle than me if you know what I 
mean. I think the Fat Lady lets him in. And I think the castle doors 
do, too. 

Heather M. aka Aicha 




From msl at fc.net  Tue Feb  6 16:28:42 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 16:28:42 -0000
Subject: Another Wormtongue
In-Reply-To: <95p5l8+nmqu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95p8nq+6ll3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11785

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Fascinating post, Marvin.
> 
> There is another Wormtongue in fiction who needs a mention:  The 
> Lord of the Rings' Grima, nicknamed Wormtongue, who is a servant of 
> Theoden of Rohan but goes over to Saruman.

Ooo, I'd forgotten about Grima.  IIRC he's not just a servant, he's an
advisor who covets Theoden's daughter.  (I might be wrong there; it's
been a while since I read LotR.)  It's interesting that two authors
who knew each other and were friends chose to use the same name for
devious bastards in their fiction; I wonder who used it first and if
the other was paying an homage of some kind.

> I have to head to work so I don't have time to think out the 
> parallels--maybe some other LOTR fan wants to run with it--but the 
> basic pattern of betrayal and cowardice is there.  And I love your 
> analysis that Wormtail's temptation is despair--the same with Grima, 
> I would say off the top of my head.

My recollection is that Grima betrays in order to get something (the
daughter angle) but I'm very uncertain about that.  I also seem to
recall that Grima's counsel had been poisoning Theoden's mind for a
long time before the action we see in LotR.  In that sense, Grima
might better correspond to a Hogwarts professor gone bad than to one
of the Marauders.

So...does that make Pettigrew Gollum?  :-)

> Putting The Screwtape Letters on my must-read list,

It's a fun book in addition to be thoughtful.  If you get the chance,
listen to the audiobook version because it's read by John Cleese.  I
listened to it in the car once and found myself endangering traffic
because I was alternately laughing so hard I couldn't steer or, in one
or two places, starting to cry because Lewis's analysis of human
nature seemed shockingly personal and relevant.

Mavin Long
Austin, TX




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 16:30:14 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 16:30:14 -0000
Subject: SHIP: RE: Krum and the Second Task (was semi-formal...)
In-Reply-To: <F231ODt9Cz93MgPPf3L00006a74@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95p8qm+cn98@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11786

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> Had to second our captain's excellent logic here...
> 
> >Look at Krum as an example -- granted we don't know for sure how 
things
> >will play out between Krum & Hermione.  But, my guess is that she 
was
> >flattered to go to the Ball with him -- older guy, her first real 
date,
> >he's a "big deal", etc.  But, it seemed to me that she was a bit
> >overwhelmed by how much interest he had in her after the Yule 
Ball, and
> >I don't think she had serious intentions with regard to him.  I 
think
> >she was happy to go with him to the Ball and liked getting to know 
him
> >but wasn't ready for serious relationship & all that.  So .... my 
guess
> >is that the Flattery Factor (Krum's obvious interest) probably 
didn't,
> >in the end, get him anywhere with her.  I could be proven wrong of
> >course but that's just my take on it.
> >
> 
> Let's take a look at that passage from GoF, shall we?
> 
> ********
> 
> "Harry, well done!"  Hermione cried.  "You did it, you found out 
how all by 
> yourself!"
> 
> "Well--" said Harry.  He would have told her about Dobby, but he 
had just 
> noticed Karkaroff watching him.  He was the only judge who had not 
left the 
> table; the only judge not showing signs of pleasure and relief that 
Harry, 
> Ron, and Fleur's sister had got back safely.  "Yeah, that's right," 
said 
> Harry, raising his voice slightly so that Karkaroff could hear him.
> 
> "You haff a water beetle in your hair, Herm-own-ninny," said Krum. 
 Harry 
> had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto 
himself; 
> perhaps to remind her that he had just rescued her from the lake, 
but 
> Hermione brushed away the beetle ****impatiently**** and said, 
"You're well 
> outside the time limit, though, Harry... Did it take you ages to 
find us?"
> 
> "No... I found you okay..."
> 
> (p. 304-305, Scholastic ed., emphasis mine)
> 
> **************
> 
> Passage speaks for itself, doesn't it?  (Ron-like, matter-of-fact 
nod.)  
> Now, no one is saying that it's an H/H support... so spare the list 
*that* 
> comment, please.  Not even H/Hers use it.
> 
> BUT--the passage does rather debunk the notion that Hermione is 
going to go 
> swooning into some boy's arms just because he happens to show some 
interest 
> in her.  Now *that* is not canon.
> 
> Ron should know better.  He's her best friend.  Hopefully Ron won't 
follow 
> in Krum's footsteps.  Wouldn't *that* be sad?
> 
> --Ebony (who laughs at the notion that shippers don't read canon, 
and H/H 
> shippers in particular... the majority of H/H shippers have only 
read canon 
> and don't feel the need to explain their position... because... we 
know what 
> we know! <eg>)
> 

My dear (dear) Ebony and Penny,

Allow me to do something that is normally not done and quote myself:

"I do not agree with Charlotte about the "much", BTW. From my 
experience the flattery factor certainly has an effect but I wouldn't 
say its a major factor in how (and if) the romantic                
relationship evolves. That has to do with suitability on many 
different levels." (msg #11731)

Have you actually *read* what I wrote or did you just concentrate on 
finding disjointed sentences and expressions that can be easily made 
to seem ridiculous? Did I imply that Hermione would be the sort who 
fits "into the role of a woman who would be unduly swayed by the 
Flattery Factor"? Would anyone who has read the books think that of 
Hermione? 
The *only* effect the Flattery Factor has is in producing a 
heightened awareness regarding the person showing interest in you. 
Can I say it any clearer than that? It does not make a relationship 
happen, it has nothing to do with the dynamics of the relationship. 
Its like a spark - if there is nothing that can burn, the fire won't 
start. 

<sob> I feel very picked upon (or as Jane Austen would say, 
"ill-used"). 

Naama 







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 16:44:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 16:44:28 -0000
Subject: Gray Lady:  I give up
Message-ID: <95p9lc+2btk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11787

Okay, I give up, I can't find any reference to the Gray Lady, the 
Ravenclaw ghost who shows up somewhere in PS/SS.  Can someone send me 
a page number?  Scratch that--send a hint--that's more fun.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------
Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole
farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Feb  6 16:59:14 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 16:59:14 -0000
Subject: Gray Lady:  I give up
In-Reply-To: <95p9lc+2btk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95pah2+734l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11788

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Okay, I give up, I can't find any reference to the Gray Lady, the 
> Ravenclaw ghost who shows up somewhere in PS/SS.  Can someone send 
me 
> a page number?  Scratch that--send a hint--that's more fun.
> 
> Amy Z


Amy, you can always check the Lexicon when you have questions like 
this. It'll give you a chapter number (SS12) then you can narrow your 
search. She isn't listed by name, though, that would be too easy. 
Good luck.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has several pages about ghosts, including the Hogwarts bunch
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From rina at love-productions.com  Tue Feb  6 16:54:59 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:54:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gray Lady:  I give up
Message-ID: <02da01c0905d$bd908fe0$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 11789

Amy wrote:

<<Okay, I give up, I can't find any reference to the Gray Lady, the 
Ravenclaw ghost who shows up somewhere in PS/SS.  Can someone send me 
a page number?  Scratch that--send a hint--that's more fun.
>>

Mirror of Erised. : )

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Feb  6 17:08:23 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 17:08:23 -0000
Subject: Gray Lady / Lexicon information
In-Reply-To: <95pah2+734l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95pb27+s4pd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11790


> Amy, you can always check the Lexicon when you have questions like 
> this. It'll give you a chapter number (SS12) then you can narrow 
your 
> search. She isn't listed by name, though, that would be too easy. 
> Good luck.

Forgive me for posting again...but I realize I wasn't clear. The Gray 
Lady isn't listed by name in PS/SS. She's listed by name in the 
Lexicon, of course. In fact, the easiest way to find her (or anything 
else) is to simply search for the name. There's a very nifty search 
function built into the Lexicon. If you'd rather browse to it, you 
can follow this path:

Wizarding World => Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry => 
ghosts

Another path would be:
Wizarding World => Magic creatures => ghosts

I give all this information for a couple of reasons. First of all, it 
gives some of you who haven't discovered the Lexicon yet, a taste of 
what you might find there. Second, it starts you out on the main 
page, the one that's linked at the bottom of this post. I prefer that 
people start there because then they show up on the various hit 
counters. That may not mean much to most of you, but the higher my 
hit counts go, the better placement I get on some of the indexes. And 
hey, I like to look successful, I admit it :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has pages about a LOT of stuff, actually
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Tue Feb  6 18:10:08 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 18:10:08 -0000
Subject: Interview with HP screenwriter
Message-ID: <95pem0+gtfc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11791

Follow this link to read it, it's very encouraging.

http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111

Wonder what the thing that couldn't be put in because something in 
book 5 would make it impossible was?

Keith




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 18:40:06 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 18:40:06 -0000
Subject: Gray Lady:  I give up
In-Reply-To: <95pah2+734l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95pge6+396r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11792

> Amy, you can always check the Lexicon when you have questions like 
> this. It'll give you a chapter number (SS12) then you can narrow 
your 
> search. She isn't listed by name, though, that would be too easy. 
> Good luck.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.  I will repeat these words three times 
morning and evening:  For all questions of mind and doubts of soul, 
CHECK THE LEXICON.

Thanks, Steve and Rina--I found her.

Amy Z




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Tue Feb  6 18:45:09 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 18:45:09 -0000
Subject: Interview with HP screenwriter
In-Reply-To: <95pem0+gtfc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95pgnl+k3sf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11793

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., keith.fraser at s... wrote:
> Follow this link to read it, it's very encouraging.
> 
> http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111

This makes the film sound like it may be very good indeed. Some of 
the things he says, about staying true to the books, and JKRs input 
to the script make me feel Chris Columbus may not make the complete 
hash of it that a lot of people fear. Especially the bit about Dan 
Radcliffe acting in an understated (non-american) way sounds 
particularly promising.


Dai





From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Feb  6 19:21:42 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:21:42 -0700
Subject: HP Bed Accessories
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEOJCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11794

J.C. Penney's online catalog has a complete Harry Potter bedding set.
There's curtains, pillow shams with Hogwarts castle on them (looks kinda
like Manhattan on a cliff),  a pillowcase set with what appears to be a
blonde Hermione on a broomstick and a scraggy-looking Harry on a broomstick,
a comforter with Harry going after a snitch, and a Hedwig accent pillow.
Prices aren't too bad...

http://www1.jcpenney.com/jcp/default.asp

At the bottom of the page today, under "Featured Items"




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Feb  6 19:41:16 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:41:16 -0000
Subject: Wormtail and Wormtongue
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10102060846060.94711-100000@freeside.fc.net>
Message-ID: <95pk0s+f7uu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11795

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marvin Long, Jr." <msl at f...> wrote:
> 
> (I didn't find this topic discussed in the archives, so I hope not 
to be
> repeating an old thread...)
> 
> Who's read "The Screwtape Letters" by CS Lewis?  If you have, you'll
> recall that they are a series of letters from a senior devil, 
Screwtape,
> to his young nephew, Wormtongue, 

Excellent analysis, but one slight error: Screwtape's hapless nephew 
is named Wormwood. My dictionary defines it as "A European plant 
yielding a bitter slightly aromatic dark green oil used in absinthe." 
The word has of course become synonymous with bitterness and gall. In 
Revelations 8:10-11, we read:

The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a 
torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs 
of water--the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters 
turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become 
bitter.

Wormwood was also the name of Calvin's teacher in the Calvin & Hobbes 
comic strip (Bill Watterson, the cartoonist, stated that he derived 
her name from Screwtape) - and the Ukranian word for Wormwood is 
Chernobyl (which, disaster though it was, fortunately did not fulfill 
the prophecies of St. John)

   - CMC




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb  6 20:09:34 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:09:34 -0600
Subject: Interview with HP screenwriter
References: <95pem0+gtfc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8059FE.4FB00344@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11796

Hi --

keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk wrote:

> Follow this link to read it, it's very encouraging.
>
> http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111
>
> Wonder what the thing that couldn't be put in because something in
> book 5 would make it impossible was?

Yes, believe it or not, I actually did read this story (I have a habit
of skipping casting posts & the like).  Anyway, I read it mainly because
I'd heard somewhere before that when they first met, JKR asked Kloves
who his favorite character was.  She said that she just melted &
instantly took to him when he said, "Hermione."  So, of course, I love
him too!

Anyway, I thought this interview was full of very interesting
information.  One of the things that really interested me (aside from
wondering what couldn't be put in b/c of Book 5 and wondering what it
was that he wrote into the SS/PS script that made her say, "Aha.  You
sense something that's going on."  Wonder what *that* might be??!) was
the following statement that Kloves said JKR said to him with respect to
the increasingly dark tone of the series:

> She just said to me, ?Man, they haven?t seen anything yet.
>
> Wait until they get to last book.? The series is going dark.
>
To all those people who say that this series is just a "childrens'
series" after all and JKR is aware of her children readers and she won't
go too dark and blah, blah, blah -- take a look at that.  She's said it
before, but the above statement really reinforces what she's maintained
all along.  She isn't going to "tone it down" -- I can't wait!  Kloves
said she is "fearless," and I think that's a great thing for this
series.  Yay!

There was also lots of good (and comforting) information about the
upcoming movie and the cast and how it's all being handled.  I feel
better ... (sending the link to a friend who was just telling me this
weekend that she wasn't sure if she would see the movie)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Tue Feb  6 20:18:39 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:18:39 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interview with HP screenwriter
References: <95pem0+gtfc@eGroups.com> <3A8059FE.4FB00344@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <00b701c0907a$06ffa140$b12d07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11797

>She's said it before, but the above statement really reinforces what she's
maintained
>all along.  She isn't going to "tone it down" -- I can't wait!  Kloves
>said she is "fearless," and I think that's a great thing for this
>series.  Yay!
>Penny

I haven't read the interview and exept from looking at the actors I've
stayed clear of all movie-information because I'll try the impossible task
and stay spoiler-free for the movie (at least as spoiler-free as you can be
when you know the book novel so well).
But what you just quoted really makes me drool again for book 4. Wanna
have!!!

LOL! Would you listen to me? Maybe HP is for childern after all, but a
different kind of childern <g>

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

The wages of sin is death, but so is the salary of virtue, and at least the
evil get to go home early on Fridays.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad)





From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb  6 20:27:47 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:27:47 -0600
Subject: SHIP: RE: Krum and the Second Task (was semi-formal...)
References: <95p8qm+cn98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A805E43.51E3CAC6@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11798

Hi --

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> <sob> I feel very picked upon (or as Jane Austen would say, "ill-used").
>
<pats Naama on the shoulder reassuringly>  I'm sure no one meant for you
to feel "ill-used" Naama!  :--)

> My dear (dear) Ebony and Penny,
>
> Allow me to do something that is normally not done and quote myself:
>
> "I do not agree with Charlotte about the "much", BTW. From my
> experience the flattery factor certainly has an effect but I wouldn't
> say its a major factor in how (and if) the romantic
> relationship evolves. That has to do with suitability on many
> different levels." (msg #11731)
>
> Have you actually *read* what I wrote or did you just concentrate on
> finding disjointed sentences and expressions that can be easily made
> to seem ridiculous? Did I imply that Hermione would be the sort who
> fits "into the role of a woman who would be unduly swayed by the
> Flattery Factor"?

But, reading your original message (#11618), you did say that R/H was
more probable because one of the conditions (R liking H) was met.  You
said that was just simple logic, and then you added the psychological
considerations, namely that "How often has it happened (especially to
women) that they ended falling in love with a guy they hadn't even
noticed before he showed interest in them?"

Forgive us if we've misinterpreted.  Your next message (#11731) did
clarify things quite a bit, but I had the impression that you still
believed the Flattery Factor worked in Ron's favor.  I guess my take is
that the Flattery Factor will only work in Ron's favor if Hermione has
some smidgeon of romantic interest in him.  If she does (and she might),
then the Flattery Factor may well be enough to get it going, spark the
relationship.  But if she doesn't, then I don't think the Flattery
Factor will cause a relationship to happen between the two of them.  I
guess, at base, I think the Flattery Factor is probably only useful for
communicating that initial spark of interest to the other party, who is
also likewise communicating a spark of interest.  I don't really see a
spark from one party starting the fire of romance between them so to
speak -- seems to me that you need 2 sparks or potential sparks for the
fire to eventually start.  I suppose that's because I still disagree
strongly with the idea that people (especially women) are inclined to
fall for someone they'd never before considered just because a man shows
interest in them.

Which brings me to your last point, which is where I think we meet
common ground ....

> The *only* effect the Flattery Factor has is in producing a heightened
> awareness regarding the person showing interest in you. Can I say it
> any clearer than that? It does not make a relationship happen, it has
> nothing  to do with the dynamics of the relationship. Its like a spark
> - if there is nothing that can burn, the fire won't start.

I think we agree here!  I just maintain that "heightened awareness" of
Ron's interest on Hermione's part is likely to result in a compassionate
let-down rather than a romance (but that's because I don't think there's
any romantic interest on her side).  <g>  Make sense?

Penny
(who often feels "ill-used" and misunderstood ... so she has sympathy)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Feb  6 21:09:05 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:09:05 -0000
Subject: Interview with HP screenwriter
In-Reply-To: <00b701c0907a$06ffa140$b12d07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <95pp5h+fl4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11799

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dinah" <betty_belladonna at f...> wrote:
> >She's said it before, but the above statement really reinforces 
what she's maintained all along.  She isn't going to "tone it down" --
 I can't wait!  Kloves said she is "fearless," and I think that's a 
great thing for this series.  Yay!
> >Penny
> 
> I haven't read the interview and exept from looking at the actors 
I've stayed clear of all movie-information because I'll try the 
impossible task and stay spoiler-free for the movie (at least as 
spoiler-free as you can be when you know the book novel so well).
But what you just quoted really makes me drool again for book 4. 
Wanna have!!!

Penny, "yay" from me too - I think they're actually doing this right. 

Dinah, I don't think there's anything in here I'd call a "spoiler" 
(in the "this is giving away something I'm not already aware of" 
sense of the word) - it pretty much just talks about the process, 
communicating with JKR, etc. I loved the part where the screenwriter 
talked about how well he thinks the three principles fit their rolls.

B.





From msl at fc.net  Tue Feb  6 22:38:22 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:38:22 -0000
Subject: Wormtail and Wormtongue
In-Reply-To: <95pk0s+f7uu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95pucu+eqdd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11800

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., coriolan at w... wrote:

> Excellent analysis, but one slight error: Screwtape's hapless nephew 
> is named Wormwood. My dictionary defines it as "A European plant 
> yielding a bitter slightly aromatic dark green oil used in 
> absinthe."  The word has of course become synonymous with bitterness 
> and gall. In Revelations 8:10-11, we read:
> 
> The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like 
> a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the 
> springs of water--the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the 
> waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had 
> become bitter.
> 
> Wormwood was also the name of Calvin's teacher in the Calvin & 
> Hobbes comic strip (Bill Watterson, the cartoonist, stated that he 
> derived her name from Screwtape) - and the Ukranian word for 
> Wormwood is Chernobyl (which, disaster though it was, fortunately 
> did not fulfill the prophecies of St. John)

Ooops.  <blushing>  I guess I need to double check my sources in the
future.  And of course, the name "Wormtail" could easily allude simply
to the somewhat unappetizing look of a rat's hairless tail.  But I'm
determined to find a literary reference, doggone it!  :-)

marvin




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  6 23:53:04 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:53:04 -0000
Subject: HP movies...(was Re: Interview with HP screenwriter)
In-Reply-To: <95pp5h+fl4i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95q2p0+adv5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11801

Well I think we can all breath a collective sigh of relief. (At least 
I can!) This interview made me feel loads better about the upcoming 
movie, not only in the fact that he is conversing closely with Jo, 
but also in the fact that they're paying attention to such minute 
detail as what might contradict with upcoming books/movies.

It's obvious that the movie will not be how everyone's pictured it. 
Nor will it be word for word in the book. After reading this however 
I'm much more convinced that it will produced with intergrity, and 
accurately reflect the story from which it was derived.

I'm also glad that Jo is pleased with the casting of Harry et al, and 
that what's-his-name (Steve Kloves?) is too. I read it before, but 
there's no such thing as being reassured too many times about this 
production....

Now if only we could have convinced them to make it a musical and use 
some of the filk that I've seen here on our group!

Scott
(Who is thinking of penning a HP filk of "Oklahoma" since he's been 
to so many rehersal's lately and can't get the songs out of his head.)




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Wed Feb  7 00:53:38 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (msmacgoo at one.net.au)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 00:53:38 -0000
Subject: Interview with HP screenwriter
In-Reply-To: <3A8059FE.4FB00344@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95q6ai+b8pg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11802

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> I'd heard somewhere before that when they first met, JKR asked 
Kloves
> who his favorite character was.  She said that she just melted &
> instantly took to him when he said, "Hermione."  So, of course, I 
love
> him too!
> 

Ohhh - Penny, I thought he said 'Ron' and she said she just melted 
and took to him instantly!. Oh dear! I'll have a look at home and see 
if I printed out the interview and get back to you tonight

storm




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Feb  7 01:17:36 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:17:36 -0600
Subject: Interview with HP screenwriter
References: <95q6ai+b8pg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A80A230.A4379AAE@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11803

Hi --

msmacgoo at one.net.au wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
> wrote:
>
> > I'd heard somewhere before that when they first met, JKR asked
> Kloves who his favorite character was.  She said that she just melted
> &
> instantly took to him when he said, "Hermione."  So, of course, I
> love him too!
> >
> Ohhh - Penny, I thought he said 'Ron' and she said she just melted
> and took to him instantly!. Oh dear! I'll have a look at home and see
> if I printed out the interview and get back to you tonight

It's in the Entertainment Weekly interview from 11 Aug 2000.  Here's
what it said exactly:

She starts by saying that she was prepared to hate Kloves, the man who
was going to butcher her baby.  "The first time I met him, he said, 'You
know who my favorite character is?' And I thought, 'You're gonna say
Ron.'  It's real easy to love Ron -- but so obvious.  But he said
'Hermione.'  I just kind of melted."

So -- she thought he would say Ron, but she melted when he in fact said
Hermione was his fave!  Like I said, I love him already!

This is in the JKR FAQ -- so it was easy for me to find.  I was just
lazy earlier.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Feb  7 01:52:45 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:52:45 -0700
Subject: Ron & Quidditch
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEOOCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11804

A thought crossed my mind just now (A miracle! Call the Pope!).  Why isn't
Ron on the Quidditch team?  He's so avid about Quidditch; his brothers
Charlie, Fred, and George are/were all on the Gryffindor team... Why, after
four years, is Ron still sitting in the stands during the games?

I realize that the whole school got cheated out of Quidditch in GoF (I STILL
don't understand why Harry and the others couldn't play -- the tournament
didn't seem to take all that much time out of the Champions' free time, and
all the rest of the students got gypped out of a whole season.)  Still, it
seems odd to me that we don't see any mention of Ron trying out in Cos or
PoA, much less getting on the team (even as a second-string player).
Another area of resentment or jealousy from Ron toward Harry?  Ron doesn't
SEEM to resent Harry's starring role in the games.

I guess in Book 5 we'll see a new Gryffindor Keeper replacing Oliver Wood, a
new Team Captain, again replacing Wood, and possibly a Chaser or two, since
we don't know if any of the three female Chasers have completed their
schooling.  Angelina Johnson was 17 in the autumn of Gof school year... I
would think she might have graduated in June?  Will there be any ROOM in
Book 5 for Quidditch except a 'mention in passing'?




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Feb  7 01:54:06 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:54:06 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron & Quidditch
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEOOCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c090a8$dbfbed80$8062063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 11805



>
> I guess in Book 5 we'll see a new Gryffindor Keeper replacing Oliver
Wood, a
> new Team Captain, again replacing Wood, and possibly a Chaser or two,
since
> we don't know if any of the three female Chasers have completed their
> schooling.  Angelina Johnson was 17 in the autumn of Gof school
year... I
> would think she might have graduated in June?  Will there be any ROOM
in
> Book 5 for Quidditch except a 'mention in passing'?
Weasleys for captain ?

Michelle





From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Wed Feb  7 01:59:21 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (msmacgoo at one.net.au)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 01:59:21 -0000
Subject: Interview with HP screenwriter
In-Reply-To: <3A80A230.A4379AAE@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95qa5p+sot3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11806

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
> 
> >
> > > I'd heard somewhere before that when they first met, JKR asked
> > Kloves who his favorite character was.  She said that she just 
melted
> > &
> > instantly took to him when he said, "Hermione."  So, of course, I
> > love him too!
> > >
<snip>

Storm said: I thought it was Ron

Penny corrected her (no, definately Hermione) and said:
> 
> This is in the JKR FAQ -- so it was easy for me to find.  I was just
> lazy earlier.

all of this goes to show how unrelaible my memory is. Again. <g> I 
could have sworn it was Ron. 

storm
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 02:44:18 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 02:44:18 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Angelina/Ages of Hogwarts First Years (was Ron & Quidditch)
Message-ID: <F42RhpDrwuce0Xh5AS800007f21@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11807

Hi, SML and list--

>I guess in Book 5 we'll see a new Gryffindor Keeper replacing Oliver Wood, 
>a
>new Team Captain, again replacing Wood, and possibly a Chaser or two, since
>we don't know if any of the three female Chasers have completed their
>schooling.  Angelina Johnson was 17 in the autumn of Gof school year... I
>would think she might have graduated in June?  Will there be any ROOM in
>Book 5 for Quidditch except a 'mention in passing'?
>


You know, Angelina may have graduated at the end of GoF, but for some 
strange reason I always thought the three Chasers and the twins were in the 
same year.  Call me batty, because I've absolutely no direct evidence 
whatsoever to support it.  But here's the conversation in which we learn 
Ange's 17...

************

People were cheering out in the entrance hall.  They all swiveled around in 
their seats and saw Angelina Johnson coming into the hall, grinning in an 
embarrassed sort of way.  A tall black girl who played Chaser on the 
Gryffindor Quidditch team, Angelina came over to them, sat down, and said, 
"Well, I've done it!  Just put my name in!"

"You're kidding!" said Ron, looking impressed.

"Are you seventeen, then?" asked Harry.

"'Course she is, can't see a beard, can you?" said Ron.

"I had my birthday last week," said Angelina.

*************

I think if she was a seventh year at the time, it would have automatically 
been assumed that she is seventeen, and Harry would have never thought to 
ask if she was.  I read the conversation as rationalizing to the reader 
*why* someone previously assumed to have been in the same year as the 
twins/Chasers was able to enter the contest.

This gets right back into our debate about the Hogwarts cut-off date for 
entrance.  *Must* the child be 11 on September 1?  If so, then Angelina is a 
sixth year in GoF.  However, that means that Hermione's almost a year older 
than Harry and perhaps older than Ron as well, since JKR has expressly 
stated that her birthday is September 19.  (Sidenote--*why* hasn't anyone 
asked JKR about Ron's birthday?)

Interesting stuff, there.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who paradoxically believes that Angelina was a sixth 
year in GoF, but Hermione was 10 when she entered Hogwarts, and has 
absolutely no textual evidence to back it up)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Feb  7 03:34:12 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:34:12 -0600
Subject: That boring Harry guy
References: <95ov0t+kc89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A80C234.FD6FE1DC@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11808

Hi --

Amy Z wrote:

> Kathy: But as far as romantic pairings, if I were to choose, I would
> pick fun-time Ron over boring Harry in a second.
>
> Amy: Oh wow, Kathy, this is fuel on the fire!  Harry has the makings
> of a seriously attractive man.  I don't mean the way he looks--I mean
> depth
> of soul.

I think both -- attractive looks-wise (the geeks always turn out
better-looking in adulthood) and personality/depth.  Just look at PoU
Harry for example .... <deep sigh>!

Penny
(a Hermione-type who has inexplicably found herself married to *fanon*
(not canon) Draco of sorts)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb  7 03:36:36 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:36:36 -0500
Subject: Ages of Hogwarts First Years (was Ron & Quidditch)
References: <F42RhpDrwuce0Xh5AS800007f21@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A80C2C4.FB4501B0@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11809



Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote:

> This gets right back into our debate about the Hogwarts cut-off date
> for
> entrance.  *Must* the child be 11 on September 1?  If so, then
> Angelina is a
> sixth year in GoF.  However, that means that Hermione's almost a year
> older
> than Harry and perhaps older than Ron as well, since JKR has expressly
>
> stated that her birthday is September 19.

I am convinced that the cutoff date has to be a little flexible. In my
HP Universe, children of wizards and/or witches start Hogwarts on the
September 1 after their 11th birthday (or on their 11th, in the case of
kids born that day) but children from Muggle families, who attended
Muggle primary schools, start Hogwarts when they've finished primary
school and are ready to enter a comprehensive/go to boarding school,
which may or may not be after they are 11. In other words, if Hermione
skipped a year in primary school or started kindergarten at 4, three
weeks before she turned 5, she would've started Hogwarts at 10, turned
11 just after starting, and would be about 7 weeks younger than Harry.

And I say this as someone whose birthday was 2 weeks after the cutoff
date to start first grade back in 1976, so I was sent to private school
for a year, then transfered to the local public school for 2nd grade -
once I'd finished first grade, they couldn't prevent me from going into
second. And I didn't turn 17 until 6 months before I finished high
school.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  7 03:56:03 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 03:56:03 -0000
Subject: Angelina/Ages of Hogwarts First Years (was Ron & Quidditch)
In-Reply-To: <F42RhpDrwuce0Xh5AS800007f21@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95qh0j+ivqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11810

"--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who paradoxically believes that Angelina was a 
sixth year in GoF, but Hermione was 10 when she entered Hogwarts, and 
has absolutely no textual evidence to back it up)"

I agree, but I've never been sure why. In fact I've ALWAYS assumed 
that Angelina was in the same year as the twins. Hermione well I 
think she's younger too. I can't explain it either, I mean she is 
more mature than Harry and Ron after all. Hmmm...perhaps I should 
give some thought to my reasoning.

Scott
(Who thinks that Ron, who's birthday is yet unclaimed, should be 
given May 16th which I realised in the chat on Sunday is shared by 
more than just me!)




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Feb  7 03:58:38 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 03:58:38 -0000
Subject: Angelina/Ages of Hogwarts First Years (was Ron & Quidditch)
In-Reply-To: <F42RhpDrwuce0Xh5AS800007f21@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95qh5e+pr7j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11811

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> [SML and others wrote:]--
> 
> > I guess in Book 5 we'll see a new Gryffindor Keeper (snip), 
> > new Team Captain, again replacing Wood, and possibly a Chaser or
> > two, since (snip)

Before we found out that there would be no House Quidditch in Book 4, 
I advocated Twins for co-Captains (as Michelle just did two posts 
ago!). When some people said they were too irresponsible, I said it 
would teach them responsibility. But since then they have started 
Weasley Wizard Wheezes, which will even more than Quidditch Captaincy 
require them to take responsibility, and I wonder if WWW will leave 
them *time* for Quidditch! The Gryffindors would freak if F & G 
resigned from the team! 

I also speculated on who would be the new Keeper. I like the idea of 
it being Dean Thomas, because he is Muggle-born and a soccer fan, so 
it would be funny AND irritate the pure-blood bigots. 

I like the idea of it being Hermione, Lavendar, and Parvati's fourth 
roommate, a girl whose relationship with Hermione is sort of an armed 
true, because this girl is anti-intellectual, and whose relationship 
with Lavendar and Parvati was open warfare, because they make fun 
of her for being big and muscular and flatchested and unfeminine, 
but when she becomes a Quidditch hero, suddenly tons of boys want to 
hang out with her, and then suddenly Lavendar and Parvati are all 
over her trying to be friends. Because THAT would be funny. But other 
people firmly stated that if H, L, and P had another roommate, we 
would have heard SOMETHING about her by now.

But I disliked those ideas because if Ron missed getting on the 
team yet again, this time when competing for an open position, he 
would have to hide in the woods so that no one would see him cry. 
(Which I think was what started this thread, someone asking if Ron 
would get on the team in Book 5.)

In SS/PS, Lee Jordan's commentary says (in addition to saying that 
Angelina is quite a Chaser and quite an attractive girl) that Alicia 
Spinnet is a 'find' of Wood's, last year only a reserve. CoS calls 
her fourth-year Alicia Spinnet (in the scene where Wood is making 
them crazy with flip charts before their first practise). That would 
make her a fifth-year in GoF, and probably younger than the other two 
Chasers. 

Ebony wrote: 

> This gets right back into our debate about the Hogwarts cut-off
> date for entrance.  *Must* the child be 11 on September 1?  If so,
> then Angelina is a sixth year in GoF.  However, that means that
> Hermione's almost a year older than Harry and perhaps older than
> Ron as well, since JKR has expressly stated that her birthday is
> September 19.  (Sidenote--*why* hasn't anyone asked JKR about Ron's 
> birthday?)
> (snip) paradoxically believes that Angelina was a sixth 
> year in GoF, but Hermione was 10 when she entered Hogwarts, and 
> has absolutely no textual evidence to back it up)

I believe that Angelina is a sixth-year in GoF and don't have strong 
opinions about whether Hermione is 10 months older or 2 months 
younger than Harry. If the cut-off date for birthdays was Sept 30 (or 
even Sept 20, or Autumn Equinox, a changeable date around Sept 20), 
then Angie with a birthday in October (one week before the Goblet Day 
which IIRC was the day before Halloween) missed the cut-off but 
Hermione made it, and then you would be right about Angie is sixth- 
year in GoF AND Hermione was 10 when she first entered Hogwarts.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Feb  7 03:48:06 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:48:06 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Viktor & Hermione sitting in a tree
References: <200102060636.f166aqC01910@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <3A80C576.646D0849@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11812

Hi --

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> Pssst!  Hey Penny!  We actually agree on something again!  (I think
> that
> brings it up to 4; we really should start keeping a list. <g>)

Ooh, 4!  That's great Kathy!  <g>

> This actually made me think of something I wanted to bring up here.
> Penny, in your review of one of the recent parts of my fanfic, you
> mentioned that you had thought that Hermione had gotten to know Viktor
> fairly well before he asked her to the Yule Ball.  My assumption was
> that she had not, because a) there were only a few weeks between the
> First Task (i.e. the time Harry would have been in the library with
> her) and the announcement of the Ball  and b) Viktor and Hermione's
> conversation at the Yule Ball (i.e. him telling her about his school)
> seemed very introductory to me, a topic they would have already talked
> about if they had spoken at any great length.

These are good points, although like you point out, I think the
pronounciation thing was more just a great place for JKR to illustrate
it for the readers.  A few weeks would be enough time for them to know
each other reasonably well.  The conversation we overhear at the Yule
Ball may just be the sort of topic one has when you're in a new
situation -- that was their first date.  Sometimes the conversation
veers toward "safe topics" when you're in that situation.  Remember
those awkward adolescent dating moments?  <g>

It's just a gut feeling with me -- I just assume that they'd at least
had a few conversations.  I don't think he just asked her out of the
blue.  Although she did say he'd been coming to the library, trying to
work up the nerve to talk to her.  That implies that he asked her one of
the first times he spoke to her I suppose.  Hmmm .... interesting.  Very
interesting question.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Feb  7 04:14:38 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:14:38 -0000
Subject: Sirius' family/Severus
In-Reply-To: <01c08b5b$f3307d60$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <95qi3e+3ico@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11813

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Zaboklicka" 
<monika.zaboklicka at c...> wrote:

> To my best knowledge no relative is ever mentioned. We also know
> nothing about Snape's family. I'd laugh my head off if these two
> tall, thin, black-haired men turned out to be relatives...

With the personal names Sirius and Severus, I am SURE both of them 
are at least half-and-half, and I think they are both purebloods. 
Probably all the purebloods in Britain are related, there being so 
few of them. James Potter was a tall, thin, black haired man, too -- 
it seems to be a common type among wizards.

More important question!!!
Where does it say that Snape is tall? I keep looking and can't find 
anything about his height. Where does it say that Snape is thin? I 
imagine him more a mesomorph than an ectomorph. And is he all 
clean-shaven? JKR's description is always: "sallow skin, hook nose, 
shoulder-length greasy black hair" and sometimes "black eyes", but no 
statement of presence or absence of facial hair. If he had a beard 
long enough to take into his belt or long waxed mustache like the 
villain in a Wild West melodrama, she would have had to mention it, 
but he could have something like a goatee and a stupid little
mustache like the Three Musketeers.... 




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Feb  7 04:19:26 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:19:26 -0000
Subject: Poster's Hall of Fame
Message-ID: <95qice+425b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11814

Who were the top 30 posters on HPfGU from August thru January?  Find 
out here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Posts.htm

-Jim Flanagan
HPfGU Statistical Services




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 04:32:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:32:13 -0000
Subject: Wormtail and Wormtongue and Wormwood
In-Reply-To: <95pucu+eqdd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95qj4d+rmt5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11815

Marvin wrote:

>And of course, the name "Wormtail" could easily allude simply
> to the somewhat unappetizing look of a rat's hairless tail.  But I'm
> determined to find a literary reference, doggone it!  :-)

I definitely think it goes beyond mere descriptiveness.  Padfoot is 
descriptive; Prongs is descriptive; Wormtail is descriptive and 
derogatory--as you say, it's unappetizing.

Whether JKR was deliberately (or even unconsciously) alluding to 
Wormtongue and Wormwood or not, Wormtail has an unpleasant sound to 
it, IMO. 

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
Asleep was the way Harry liked the Dursleys best.
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------




From kathleen at carr.org  Wed Feb  7 04:35:28 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 23:35:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RON (Changing the subject line b/c Harry's too boring for it ;)
Message-ID: <200102070437.f174bXC24122@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11816

> Kathy: But as far as romantic pairings, if I were to choose, I would
> pick fun-time Ron over boring Harry in a second.
>
> Amy: Oh wow, Kathy, this is fuel on the fire!  Harry has the makings
> of a seriously attractive man.  I don't mean the way he looks--I mean
> depth
> of soul.
>
>Penny:
>I think both -- attractive looks-wise (the geeks always turn out
>better-looking in adulthood) and personality/depth.  Just look at PoU
>Harry for example .... <deep sigh>!


Well...as an unnamed crewmate mentioned recently, the only reason she could 
stand PoU Harry was that he had so many Ron-like qualities in him.  I 
personally would take Ron any day...and anyone who thinks a Ron-type can't 
have depth and personality isn't looking closely enough.  Hey, B, where's that 
chain-smoking-adult-Harry-in-therapy fanfic you envisioned?  That would 
support my argument nicely about now!

Anyway, this whole thing started with my perfectly innocent comment that I'm 
starting to find Harry kinda boring, and it's true--I am really more 
interested in the other characters' perspectives at this point.  But I've said 
this before, so I'll shut up now and dream of Weasleys...

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who dreams of having her very own Ron...




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  7 04:38:01 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:38:01 -0000
Subject: Angelina/Ages of Hogwarts First Years (was Ron & Quidditch)
In-Reply-To: <95qh5e+pr7j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95qjf9+8ts2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11817

<Why doesn't anyone ever ask about Ron's birthday?

Someone did, I believe, in an AOL chat. I can't remember what the 
answer was, but I know that someone did. I think I remember thinking 
that it was oddly close to the other two -- July something or June 
something. I don't know for sure, and I have no idea where to find 
transcripts of AOL chats.

Stacy

PS - I suppose everyone here knows this (I would be VERY surprised to 
come up with anything that hasn't already been said at least ten 
times), but JKR's birthday is July 31st, same as Harry's. I thought 
that was cute.




From rina at love-productions.com  Wed Feb  7 04:46:44 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:46:44 -0600
Subject: Ron's birthday ( Re: Angelina/Ages of Hogwarts First Years )
Message-ID: <040c01c090c0$fe96f340$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 11818

Stacy wrote:

<<<Why doesn't anyone ever ask about Ron's birthday?

Someone did, I believe, in an AOL chat. I can't remember what the 
answer was, but I know that someone did. I think I remember thinking 
that it was oddly close to the other two -- July something or June 
something. I don't know for sure, and I have no idea where to find 
transcripts of AOL chats.>>

Nope, that's when someone asked about Hermione's. All she said about Ron was that Harry did indeed by presents back for them on their birthdays. : )

If you're on AOL, go to keyword transcript and search for JK Rowling to reread.

Has she done any other online chats, where that might have come up? If not, can I put in a bid for May 11 as his birthday? LOL Then, technically, he'd be exactly a year older than me. <g> It's so weird reading about 14 year olds when it "real time" they're older than I am. LOL

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 04:57:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:57:53 -0000
Subject: Ron & Quidditch
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEOOCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <95qkkh+hivn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11819

The soon-to-be-beatified (thanks to said miracle) Sister Mary Lunatic 
wrote:

> A thought crossed my mind just now (A miracle! Call the Pope!).  Why 
isn't
> Ron on the Quidditch team?  He's so avid about Quidditch; his 
brothers
> Charlie, Fred, and George are/were all on the Gryffindor team... 
Why, after
> four years, is Ron still sitting in the stands during the games?

Maybe it's another side effect of compression (like the impossibility 
of one teacher covering all 20+ DADA classes no matter HOW small the 
school is).  JKR made all the players except Wood only 2 yrs older 
than Harry, plus she never tells us about reserves, so that it 
appears that no new players have come on the team since Harry.  
Probably not really the case; some 2nd years would've joined in PA.

Wouldn't it be great for Ron to join the team now that Wood is off?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------
Many people said he hadn't noticed he was dead.
         --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 05:20:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 05:20:27 -0000
Subject: Birthdays-Ages of Chasers-End of Hogwarts year
Message-ID: <95qlur+hugq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11820

Stacy wrote:

>I suppose everyone here knows this (I would be VERY surprised to 
>come up with anything that hasn't already been said at least ten 
>times), but JKR's birthday is July 31st, same as Harry's. I thought 
>that was cute.

I didn't know!  Very cute.  Does anyone on list share Harry and JKR's 
birthday?

Re: ages of Chasers--I was assuming they were all F&G's year too, 
wrongly, as someone pointed out.

Re: Angelina turning 17 in what may be her 6th year--isn't Cedric also 
a 6th year in GF?  I'm pretty sure he's described as a 5th year in 
PA.  So there's some flexibility about what age you start at Hogwarts. 
 I always figured Hermione was almost-11 rather than almost-12 when 
she started, but I guess that was just an assumption that she's as 
close as possible in age to Harry--no real logic there.

I've wondered idly about just when this school year wraps up.  Finals 
in PA are the 1st or 2nd week of June, right?  Finals in GF are still 
going on June 24, the day of the third task.  The inconsistency seems 
all the stranger because there's no reason for it that I can see.  Or 
does the British school year really vary that much?  Here in the US a 
district wraps up school the same week each year unless there are a 
lot of make-up days for snow or such.

Amy Z

P.S.  I met a 10-year-old today who looked exactly like Harry (my 
personal Harry, not Daniel Radcliffe), untidy hair and all, except 
that he had red hair!  I barely restrained myself from embarrassing 
both of us with a comment.




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 05:44:10 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 05:44:10 
Subject: Poster's Hall of Fame/Magic Carpets
Message-ID: <F105n20lbhsKd6QR7j1000083e0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11821

1)  Jim wrote--

>Who were the top 30 posters on HPfGU from August thru January?  Find
>out here:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Posts.htm

Considering the fact that my main posting periods were July-September and 
December-now, I should be embarrassed beyond measure.  But I'm not.  Neither 
am I embarrassed that a good number of those posts most likely deal with 
either shipping or fanfic.

Sigh.  So much work to do, and so few die-hard H/H shippers to do it.  If 
only the world were already converted...

2)  Here's another one of my "what on EARTH does that have to do with the 
price of rice in China?" topics.

According to the Harry Potter series, magic carpets are illegal in England.  
I'd like not only the quote (it's by Fudge and somewhere around the 
beginning of GoF, but I can't find it!), but also the rationalization of why 
this may indeed be the case.  Aladdin, anyone?

--Ebony AKA AngieJ

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Feb  7 06:19:44 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:19:44 -0800
Subject: Uberposters - "real time" - Chasers 
Message-ID: <3A80E8FE.43A9412A@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11822

Thank you, Jim F, for doing the statistics.  I see that Amanda is the
new uberposter, but flying_ford_anglia remains in the top ten.  I assume
you did these by number of posts. I wonder if the results would differ
if they were done by total words of posts that are not repeated from the
repliable message or added by mail clients...

Rina Stewart wrote:
> It's so weird reading about 14 year olds when in "real time"
> they're older than I am.

Yes. Why doesn't it feel the same weird to read about people in 1776 or
1812?

Amy Z wrote:
> Re: ages of Chasers--I was assuming they were all F&G's year too,
> wrongly, as someone pointed out.

Besides the canonical evidence that Alicia is a grade lower than F&G and
that Angie is PROBABLY the same grade as F&G, there is no canonical
evidence that Katie is not a grade ahead of them, in which case she
would have finished school at the end of GoF, and there would be two
open positions on the team.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  7 06:34:34 2001
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:34:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Bertie Bott's "special" flavor experience...
In-Reply-To: <200102060617.f166H3C29888@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <20010207063434.11835.qmail@web3703.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11823


--- Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at carr.org>
wrote:
> Jen wrote:
> >and of course, I have about 7 "booger" flavored
> ones that I just am
> >WAY too afraid to try.  Anyone want me to send them
> a little baggie
> >of booger-flavored jelly beans?  There's no way I'm
> ever going to be
> >brave enough to try them. ;)
> 
> Actually, the booger-flavored ones don't taste like
> much of anything.  They're 
> just kind of bland.
> 
> Kathy
> AKA Elanor Gamgee
> who has stayed away from her Bertie Bott's Every
> Flavor Beans after a bad 
> horseradish experience
> 
> Where do get them? I really want my own bag. It
would be so cool to bring a bag home to my son,who
loves anything to do with HP. 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Wed Feb  7 06:39:37 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (mohuebner0 at lycos.de)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 06:39:37 -0000
Subject: Sirius' family/Severus
In-Reply-To: <95qi3e+3ico@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95qqj9+qfpl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11824

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> With the personal names Sirius and Severus, I am SURE both of them
> are at least half-and-half, and I think they are both purebloods.

Good catch. I don't think any muggle would name his/her son Severus
or Sirius, at least if JKR has thought about this issue. She chose
those names for different reasons though.

> Probably all the purebloods in Britain are related, there being so
> few of them. James Potter was a tall, thin, black haired man, too --

And Voldemort was dark haired and good looking, too, at least in
his youth. Does this mean they are related? I really don't think
so.

> More important question!!!
> Where does it say that Snape is tall? I keep looking and can't find
> anything about his height. Where does it say that Snape is thin? I
> imagine him more a mesomorph than an ectomorph.

Hm, I can't give you the exact reference, but I think it is is PoA.
That is the last one I have listened to recently, and somewhere it
is mentioned that Snape is gaunt. Maybe in the scene with the
Marauder's map when he gets insulted, but I'm not sure and I can't
look it up right now, sorry. But it *is* mentionend somewhere.

Monika






From swussian at graffiti.net  Wed Feb  7 07:37:41 2001
From: swussian at graffiti.net (Tanja Suhinina)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:37:41 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 551
Message-ID: <20010207073741.93837.qmail@graffiti.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11825

*I* think the reason why Sirius, Severus, James, Tom and Harry all look more or less the same is because JK has a weak spot for blah-haired men... 
-- 
_______________________________________________
Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 09:07:20 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 09:07:20 -0000
Subject: Magic Carpets
In-Reply-To: <F105n20lbhsKd6QR7j1000083e0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95r388+4tor@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11826

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:

> 2)  Here's another one of my "what on EARTH does that have to do 
with the 
> price of rice in China?" topics.
> 
> According to the Harry Potter series, magic carpets are illegal in 
England.  
> I'd like not only the quote (it's by Fudge and somewhere around the 
> beginning of GoF, but I can't find it!), but also the 
rationalization of why 
> this may indeed be the case.  Aladdin, anyone?
> 
Hi Ebony,

I believe flying carpets are mentioned at the beginning of GoF, and I 
think its something that Crouch (sr.) said (somehing about how his 
grandfather or father owned a large flying carpet, to which he 
hurriedly added that it was before they were made illegal). I don't 
have the book here so I can't check, though. Also, either Fudge or 
Arthur Weasley (or both?) mention trouble they have with a certain 
somebody (with an eastern name, like Ali or something) that wants to 
import flying carpets into England. I'm pretty sure its all in GoF - 
quite possibley the pre-tournament chit chat with Fudge (in their 
box).

As to the rationalization - I think its the muggle artifacts thing. 
That is, they're muggle objects that are magicked. The same logic 
regarding prohibition of flying cars, enchanted tea sets, etc. 

Wow, a response that will probably not provoke another third (HP) 
world war! <wave>

Naama






From snowy_owl05 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  7 09:26:03 2001
From: snowy_owl05 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Claire=20Saunders?=)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:26:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: News just in - new Harry Potter books
Message-ID: <20010207092603.6159.qmail@web1805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11827

Hi everyone

J.K. Rowling has been kind enough to allow, and
collaborate with Comic Relief to produce two special
books. "Quidditch through the Ages", and "Fantastic
Beasts and where to find them". They will be published
worldwide on 12th March 2001, and all the money will
go to charity.

These can be pre-ordered for the princely sum of 2.50
each.

Forward me your email address and I'll send you exact
details of how to order online.

Thought this might appeal to the group, and didn't
know how widely it was known about.

And remember, all money goes to charity.

Claire :-)
snowy_owl05 at yahoo.com



=====


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 12:03:00 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 12:03:00 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic Carpets
Message-ID: <F70Cz7D919VK2YDsCUb000010dc@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11828

Hi, Naama!
>
>I believe flying carpets are mentioned at the beginning of GoF, and I
>think its something that Crouch (sr.) said (somehing about how his
>grandfather or father owned a large flying carpet, to which he
>hurriedly added that it was before they were made illegal). I don't
>have the book here so I can't check, though. Also, either Fudge or
>Arthur Weasley (or both?) mention trouble they have with a certain
>somebody (with an eastern name, like Ali or something) that wants to
>import flying carpets into England. I'm pretty sure its all in GoF -
>quite possibley the pre-tournament chit chat with Fudge (in their
>box).
>
>As to the rationalization - I think its the muggle artifacts thing.
>That is, they're muggle objects that are magicked. The same logic
>regarding prohibition of flying cars, enchanted tea sets, etc.
>

Thanks *so* much!  I wonder why carpets and not brooms are considered Muggle 
objects.  Hmm...

>Wow, a response that will probably not provoke another third (HP)
>world war!

LOL!  I daresay we're more alike than we are different.  E-mail can just be 
a very weird communication medium!

All the best,

Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb  7 12:00:45 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 07:00:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' name
References: <95qqj9+qfpl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8138ED.4D6B58AF@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11829



mohuebner0 at lycos.de wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
>
> > With the personal names Sirius and Severus, I am SURE both of them
> > are at least half-and-half, and I think they are both purebloods.
>
> Good catch. I don't think any muggle would name his/her son Severus
> or Sirius, at least if JKR has thought about this issue. She chose
> those names for different reasons though.

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if there weer some Muggle babies born about
10-15 years younger than Sirius who were giventhat name - but the 50s
were *very* different from the late 60's! Since JKR was born in the late
60's, I wonder if she knew any Children of Hippies with a name like
that?

btw - just to add some proof to the idea that one's birthdate has some
relevance to one's life, Cassandra Claire's birthday is July 31- she
said so in chat one day.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb  7 14:02:24 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 14:02:24 -0000
Subject: Wizard Money from Movie (pictures)/Merchandise
Message-ID: <95rkhg+cttg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11830

Someone has gotten a bunch of props from the filming of PS/SS in the 
UK, including a wizarding hat (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-
cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1407969814) and one of each of the 
kinds of coins (pic at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=1407975395)
I have to say, I can't imagine the coins not being "really minted for 
the movie" (although I have no clue, obviously, if they were actually 
used on the set)
The prices are obscenely high, and the main reason I'm sending this 
info to the list is so y'all can see what the coins look like (which 
is pretty cool)

Also, Hasbro just issued a press release trumpeting the things it'll 
be showing at the Toy Fair in NYC - if any of you who live there can 
manage to go (it's almost impossible for the general public to get 
in, but you never know!) please report back to us! The press release 
says, "Hasbro is thrilled to offer exciting games and toys based on 
the worldwide literary phenomenon, HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S 
STONE. The line includes electronic handheld games from TIGER such as 
the HARRY POTTER BOOK OF SPELLS and ELECTRONIC QUIDDITCH GAME, BERTIE 
BOTTS EVERY FLAVOR BEANS from CAP CANDY and a trading card game from 
WIZARDS OF THE COAST that captures the favorite characters, spells 
and situations from the world of Harry Potter."

All I can say is, I *WANT* the book of spells AND the quidditch game! 
Wheeeeeeeeeeee!




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Feb  7 14:39:08 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (Jeralyn)
Date: 7 Feb 2001 06:39:08 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yes, Virginia, there ARE 10 Gryffindor students in Harry's year!
Message-ID: <20010207143908.20046.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11831

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From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  7 14:59:28 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:59:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RON (Changing the subject line b/c Harry's too boring for it ;)
References: <200102070437.f174bXC24122@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <006f01c09116$92963740$4d53d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11832


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathleen Kelly MacMillan" <kathleen at carr.org>


> > Kathy: But as far as romantic pairings, if I were to choose, I would
> > pick fun-time Ron over boring Harry in a second.
> >
> > Amy: Oh wow, Kathy, this is fuel on the fire!  Harry has the makings
> > of a seriously attractive man.  I don't mean the way he looks--I mean
> > depth
> > of soul.
> >

Heartily agree with this statement.  If you don't see the depth of his
soul...I'm not sure what book you are reading.

>
> Well...as an unnamed crewmate mentioned recently, the only reason she
could
> stand PoU Harry was that he had so many Ron-like qualities in him.

WHAT??!!! Now everyone is entitled to imagine a character as their own mind
creates him, but I do not see this at all.  I don't see any Ron-like
qualities in PoU Harry.  Besides the fact that they are both men and both
wizards.  They are quite different people and both very good, likeable and
wonderful people, but very different.  I just do not see what you suggest.
Is it that Harry shows a sense of humor in PoU...do you not think he could
ever develop that..is all that time spent with Ron for naught?  This is not
meant to denigrate Ron, or elevate Harry, but I just don't see the
connection there...

>I
> personally would take Ron any day...and anyone who thinks a Ron-type can't
> have depth and personality isn't looking closely enough.

I really don't think anyone has suggested that Ron does not have depth and
personality.  It seems to me what you are saying is that Harry doesn't have
depth or personality...given you were the one who said you thought Harry was
boring.  Ron has loads of personality...he's a great character, but some
prefer a different personality...I personally think Sirius has them all beat
in terms of interesting personality...but hey to each their own.

> Hey, B, where's that
> chain-smoking-adult-Harry-in-therapy fanfic you envisioned?  That would
> support my argument nicely about now!

Ok I missed something between arguing for a Ron personality and making a
leap to therapy needing Harry.  You seem to be implying that if Ron has a
personality, then Harry would inevitably end up as a basket case? And how
would a fanfic that implys this support the argument that Ron has depth and
personality? I missed the in between there...Does one have to be bad to make
the other good?  Can we like both Ron and Harry?

>
> Anyway, this whole thing started with my perfectly innocent comment that
I'm
> starting to find Harry kinda boring, and it's true--I am really more
> interested in the other characters' perspectives at this point.  But I've
said
> this before, so I'll shut up now and dream of Weasleys...

Hope they are pleasant dreams.  I'd like to see a lot of the other
characters perspectives as well, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen
in the canon...glad I don't mind boring old Harry's perspective.


carole





From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Feb  7 15:32:41 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:32:41 -0000
Subject: Poster's Hall of Fame/Magic Carpets
In-Reply-To: <F105n20lbhsKd6QR7j1000083e0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95rpqp+mvmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11833


> According to the Harry Potter series, magic carpets are illegal in 
England.  
> I'd like not only the quote (it's by Fudge and somewhere around the 
> beginning of GoF, but I can't find it!), but also the 
rationalization of why 
> this may indeed be the case.  Aladdin, anyone?

Crouch Sr. says: "Ali Bashir's on the warpath.  He wants a word with 
you about your embargo on flying carpets."

Arthur says: "I sent him an owl about that just last week.  If I've 
told him once I've told him a hundred times:  Carpets are defined as 
a Muggle Artifact by the Registry of Proscribed Charmable Objects, 
but will he listen?"

Crouch says: "Ali thinks there's a niche in the market for a family 
vehicle. I remember my grandfather had an Axminster that could seat 
twelve ? but that was before carpets were banned, of course."

Later, Ali is caught smuggling in a consignment of carpets. I always 
kind of figured that a flying carpet would be harder to hide against 
the sky, since it presents a larger sillouette (sp.). Also, flying 
brooms AREN'T Muggle objects. They are completely magical in 
construction and nature. As someone pointed out, the tails aren't 
even made of broomstraw, they're entirely constructed as magical 
transportation. Okay, so coulnd't they do the same with carpets? 
Probably, but they apparently don't, they just enchant Muggle 
carpets, which makes All The Difference.


Conjectured timeline of carpet and broomstick avionics

Sylviana the Sleek gets the cool idea of making her regular old 
Muggle broom fly as a way to get to Diagon Alley in a hurry one 
Friday morning when she ran out of dragon spleen. She finds the ride 
curiously enjoyable.

Flying brooms catch on in a big way amongst Witches; Wizards refuse 
to try them because, well, it just looks like it would hurt.

Muggles all over the world start to get suspicious as more and more 
witches are flying all over the countyside, sometimes with no 
particular place to go; broom accidents are more and more common 
since the enchanted Muggle brooms offer no protection for the rider 
in the case of collision or just losing one's grip in a moment of 
particular enjoyment.

Wizards are beginning to get jealous of their womenfolk, but there's 
no way they're going to ride one of those things--ouch!--so Bubba 
Bathless, in the midst of a late-night gripe session with his closest 
mead-drinking buddies, hits upon the idea of making the carpet they 
happened to be almost passed out on fly, which means he can recline 
and drink mulled mead while he travels around. He can also do so with 
his friends. This idea is embraced wholeheartedly by the Wizards and 
disdained by Witches, who find brooms so much more, I don't know, 
gratifying.

Flying carpets become even more popular than brooms, and huge parties 
are held in midair as Wizards discover that when they congregate on a 
huge carpet they can 1) carry munchies and mead in vast quantities, 
2) hide the fact that there are a bunch of Witches of Ill Repute 
aboard, and 3) hide the whole thing from their wives.

Witches, who are inventive and innovative, create better and better 
brooms. Wizards, who are just having a great time so leave well 
enough alone, confine their innovations to constructing larger mead 
coolers, adding fluffier cushions, and using fabric that is easier to 
get the unidentified stains out of so the wife doesn't ask too many 
questions. 

Magic flying brooms begin to replace the old enchanted Muggle kind; 
these are specially constructed with charms to keep flyers on them 
just so, and Muggle repelling charms that make Muggles just think 
they see a particularly large goose flying by. Many jokes crop up 
about so-and-so's wife being a goose. These jokes are told mostly on 
flying carpets amongst Wizards and their "guests." Muggles meanwhile 
are reporting stange things falling from the sky, including empty 
bottels and women's underwear in unlikely colorws such as emerald 
green and peacock blue. 

Something must be done. When Agnes Granitebiter becomes Minister of 
Magic, she takes stern action. She sets up a commission to oversee 
the development of brooms that can be safely ridden by all witches 
and wizards and bans the enchantment of Muggle brooms and carpets 
entirely. Especially carpets.

Magical brooms become the standard form of personal transport in the 
Wizarding World. Many fond, wistful stories are told of carpets 
we "used to have" and the wonderful, wholesome adventures of long 
ago. Great-great-Grandma witches still snort into their elderflower 
wine when these stories are told. Great-great-grandpa wizards still 
get a strange light in their eyes and perk up suddenly when these 
stories are told.

Carpets are still enchanted secretly over the years and for 
sufficient Galleons, one can still get invited to an illicit "Carpet 
Party" over London. The word on the street is "Check with Crabbe" if 
you want in on the deal. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which does have a page about broomsticks, naturally
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Feb  7 15:42:41 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:42:41 -0000
Subject: Yes, Virginia, there ARE 10 Gryffindor students in Harry's year!
In-Reply-To: <20010207143908.20046.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <95rqdh+at09@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11834

I am impressed! This is great! Since I read your post, I have been 
trying as hard as I can to find some other explanation for that 
scene, but there doesn't seem to be any other way to look at it. But 
why do you know that they're female? Maybe five is as many as fits in 
ANY dorm room, so if the other two are boys, they have a separate 
room?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
the Gryffindor page of which will need to be edited now
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Wed Feb  7 15:44:28 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:44:28 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Money from Movie (pictures)/Merchandise
Message-ID: <b8.1185b95d.27b2c75c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11835

In a message dated 2/7/2001 6:18:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes:

<< I have to say, I can't imagine the coins not being "really minted for 
 the movie" (although I have no clue, obviously, if they were actually 
 used on the set) >>

The coins are most likely resin castings. Enabling the production to make as 
many as they want very cheeply.

~Hedwig~

 "Meow. Hoo. Meow. Hoo."

 



From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Feb  7 16:02:55 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:02:55 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gryffindor students in Harry's year! and ages at starting
In-Reply-To: <95rqdh+at09@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOEKDDCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 11836

Steve wrote: "I am impressed! This is great! Since I read your post, I have
been trying as hard as I can to find some other explanation for that scene,
but there doesn't seem to be any other way to look at it. But why do you
know that they're female? Maybe five is as many as fits in ANY dorm room, so
if the other two are boys, they have a separate room?"

The following is from CoS Ch 6: "The dormitory door flew open and in came
the other second year Gryffindor boys, Seamus Finnigan, Dean Thomas and
Neville Longbottom."

Meaning there is definitely only 5 boys.

Also the room could be magically expanded if needed to fit in more people.
Also why would it be a 5 / 2 split between rooms? 4 / 3 seems much more
sensible.



Heidi wrote: "I am convinced that the cutoff date has to be a little
flexible. In my HP Universe, children of wizards and/or witches start
Hogwarts on the September 1 after their 11th birthday (or on their 11th, in
the case of kids born that day) but children from Muggle families, who
attended Muggle primary schools, start Hogwarts when they've finished
primary school and are ready to enter a comprehensive/go to boarding school,
which may or may not be after they are 11. In other words, if Hermione
skipped a year in primary school or started kindergarten at 4, three weeks
before she turned 5, she would've started Hogwarts at 10, turned 11 just
after starting, and would be about 7 weeks younger than Harry."

This makes a lot of assumptions about the schooling that someone has until
they go to Hogwarts. A reasonable proportion of the UK does not go to
Primary school. Primary (years 0 to 6) and Secondary (years 7 to 13) is just
one possible split of the school system. I went to primary school for the
first couple of years of my education and then transferred into an area that
has first (years 0 to 4), middle (years 5 to 8) and upper (years 9 to 13)
schools.

Year 11 corresponds to GCSE year, which is the school year in which you turn
16.

The public school (private) is even more confusing over different school
types. Prep schools educate anything up to 14 year olds (depends on school
and student).

I do agree that it is possible for Hermione to be 7 weeks younger than
Harry, but I would be very surprised if this is the case.



Simon




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Feb  7 16:03:58 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (Jeralyn)
Date: 7 Feb 2001 08:03:58 -0800
Subject: 10 Gryffindor students in Harry's year and why the unnamed 2 are girls.
Message-ID: <20010207160358.773.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11837

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From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Wed Feb  7 16:15:51 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:15:51 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Conjectured timeline ... (Carpets/brooms)
Message-ID: <01c09121$3d34e980$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11838


-----Wiadomo orginalna-----
Od: Steve Vander Ark <vderark at bccs.org>
Do: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Data: 7 lutego 2001 16:33
Temat: [HPforGrownups] Re: Poster's Hall of Fame/Magic Carpets



> Steve Vander Ark wrote:

>Conjectured timeline of carpet and broomstick avionics


Steve, I know you read no fanfic, but have you ever considered *writing* it?
The timeline is better than great. I adore it! Please write some more!

Monika Z.
(The Snape fan)




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Feb  7 16:26:08 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:26:08 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interview with HP screenwriter
In-Reply-To: <3A8059FE.4FB00344@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEKFDCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 11839

About the article http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111 Penny
wrote: "Yes, believe it or not, I actually did read this story (I have a
habit of skipping casting posts & the like).  Anyway, I read it mainly
because I'd heard somewhere before that when they first met, JKR asked
Kloves who his favorite character was.  She said that she just melted &
instantly took to him when he said, "Hermione."  So, of course, I love him
too!

Anyway, I thought this interview was full of very interesting information.
One of the things that really interested me (aside from wondering what
couldn't be put in b/c of Book 5 and wondering what it was that he wrote
into the SS/PS script that made her say, "Aha.  You sense something that's
going on."  Wonder what *that* might be??!)"

So are we meant to be reassured by a scriptwriter who had to have part of
his potential script changed because he had not stayed close enough to the
books and had managed to add in something that was impossible? It is things
like this that are making me more concerned about the movie.

The interviewer came across as an idiot (in my opinion) and seemed to think
that we wanted his comments on all topics. He seems to say more than the
interviewee does.

Oh well - I was coming to the conclusion that I did not want to see the
movie anyway.

Simon
--
DESIGN A LOGO FOR THIS CLUB

Are you artistic?  Would you like to design a logo for this club?  Then
enter our competition and win nothing!!  But before you unleash your
creativity, PLEASE read the rules and follow the instructions here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/11192







From ganzj at rpi.edu  Wed Feb  7 16:49:07 2001
From: ganzj at rpi.edu (Jonathan Ganz)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:49:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] News just in - new Harry Potter books
In-Reply-To: <20010207092603.6159.qmail@web1805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIGDACODGBNGIJCLKEECHCBAA.ganzj@rpi.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11840

I would love some more information on these books. my email is ganzj at rpi.edu 



From meg at fenya.net  Wed Feb  7 16:52:44 2001
From: meg at fenya.net (Meghan)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:52:44 -0800
Subject: <random>Mrs. Dursley</random>
Message-ID: <3A817D5C.1CEE1E29@fenya.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11841

I have a friend doing a fic, and he was asking me how to do Mrs Dursley,
and I stalled and I ummed and I finally came up with the weak suggestion
that she's very Posh, but in a bad way.  This satisfied neither of us
and I kept worrying at it.

And then we were watching PBS [ne, Ebony, did you see the thing about
the sinking of the Luisitania? or was that only in Oregon?] and Keeping
Up Appearances came on.  "That's it!" I screamed.  "Mrs Dursley is The
Protaganist!" [and I could not spell her name if you held a gun to my
head, and do I have a flower catalog handy? of course not.]

Which didn't help Catsy much, since he's never seen it. >.> [And Catsy,
if you're on this list, I still remember I'm going to tape it for you,
but I have to figure out when it's on.]

Anyway, I started thinking about it some more, and I realised how very
frightening the parallels are.  The protaganist in Keeping Up
Appearances is older than Mrs Dursley, of course, but they're both very
determined to be Better than their Neighbors, to be seen as Respectable
-- more than respectable, actually.  And they're both essentially
lower/lower-middle-class characters trying to be upper/upper-middle
class.  
Of course, there's also the fact that Mrs Dursley was named Petunia and
her sister was named Lily, but I dunno if that says something about
their socio-economic. O.o;

The main difference is that the protaganist in KUA is desperately trying
to raise her social standing in the midst of her mostly uncaring family
and friends [in fact, most of them either mock her or simply don't
understand her motivation -- the main exception being her henpecked but
loyal husband, who seems to want to figure out why she wants this so
badly], but Petunia HAS reached the class she thinks she wants.  The
only problem is, she's still a very vulgar minded little person inside. 
What interested me is when Petunia snaps and starts screaming about how
Lily was always Better Than She Was -- it seems that JR is implying that
Lily [to borrow a couple of Victorian phrases] has an innate nobility of
soul, etc, that Petunia does not, and Harry has that same innate
nobility, Cinderella-like.  And Mrs. Dursley hates it.

Anyway.  All that to say, I wonder if JK is a fan of Keeping Up
Appearances, or if Petunia is just a certain type that shows up. >_> 

meg



-- 
Meg -- meg at fenya.net --http://www.fenya.net
AIM: LazuliSong ICQ: lazulisong 
D N Angel, Card Captor Sakura, General Evil Things



From rlpenar at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  7 17:04:21 2001
From: rlpenar at yahoo.com (rlpenar at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:04:21 -0000
Subject: 10 Gryffindor students in Harry's year and why the unnamed 2 are girls.
In-Reply-To: <20010207160358.773.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <95rv6l+bpqo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11842

> 'Kay, now I'm going out on a limb, because I only have PoA with me 
at the moment.  But I seem to recall that Harry's dorm with it's five 
canpied beds is called *the* Gryffindor boys' dorm for his year.  I'm 
going to assume that because it wasn't called *one of the* dorms, 
that it is, in fact, the only one.  I would really have to go check 
CoS to make sure, but it seemed to me the most plausible 
explanation.  
> 
> Jeralyn, the Voicelady
> 

I'll just throw this in here to make it more fun - I know that 
previously we have talked about "dormitory" can mean two things - one 
single room or more collective. Last night I was reading CoS and when 
Harry and Ron are in the common room waiting for everyone to go to 
bed so that they can sneak out using the Invisibility Cloak (don't 
know which chapter, sorry), they wait to hear two dormitory doors 
shut. I'm assuming this means the girls dorm and the boys dorm. But 
doesn't it repeatedly talk about Harry going up the circular 
staircase and pushing open *his* dormitory door? 

Becky




From rina at love-productions.com  Wed Feb  7 17:09:55 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:09:55 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 10 Gryffindor students in Harry's year and why the unnamed 2 are girls.
Message-ID: <002b01c09128$d304cb40$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 11843

becky wrote:

<<I'm assuming this means the girls dorm and the boys dorm. But 
doesn't it repeatedly talk about Harry going up the circular 
staircase and pushing open *his* dormitory door? >>

Maybe there's a door to the hallway where the rooms are, which stays open during the day, and is closed at night? Then they'd be waiting for the boys' and girls' hallway doors to be closed, not the individual student rooms.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Wed Feb  7 17:54:12 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:54:12 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] <random>Mrs. Dursley</random>
Message-ID: <21.7215a6c.27b2e5c4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11844

In a message dated 2/7/2001 11:06:59 AM Central Standard Time, meg at fenya.net 
writes:


> That's it!" I screamed.  "Mrs Dursley is The
> Protaganist!" [and I could not spell her name if you held a gun to my
> head, and do I have a flower catalog handy? of course not.]
> 
> 

Hyacinth Bucket

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 17:57:26 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:57:26 -0000
Subject: Magic Carpets - correction
In-Reply-To: <F70Cz7D919VK2YDsCUb000010dc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95s2a6+buea@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11845

I found the references! I was wrong - it wasn't Fudge at all.

The first is on page 83-84 of GoF (UK):
 'Oh, and I've been wanting a word with you, too, Arthur,' said Mr 
Crouch, his sharp eyes falling upon Mr Weasley. 'Ali Bashir's on the 
warpath. He wants a word with you about your embargo on flying 
carpets.'
Mr Weasley heaved a deep sigh. 'I send him an owl about that just 
last week. If I've told him once I've told him a humdred times: 
carpets are defined as a Muggle Artefact by the Registry of 
Proscribed Charmable Objects, but will he listen?'
...
'Ali thinks there's a niche in the market for a family vehicle,' said 
Mr Crouch. 'I remember my grandfather had an Axminster that could 
seat twelve - but that was before carpets were banned, of course.'

The second reference is on page 370:
[Percy to Bagman] "... I've had to deal with all sorts of things that 
have cropped up in his absence - you heard Ali Bashir was caught 
smuggling a consignment of flying carpets into the country?"

I've wondered too why carpets are banned and broomsticks aren't. I 
think there was a thread about it some time ago but I don't remember 
when or what was said exactly, so I don't know if this is my idea or 
something I read - maybe flying broomsticks are manufactured as magic 
objects in the first place. In this case they would not be muggle 
artefacts in any stage of their manufacture. Flying carpets, OTOH, 
are possibly produced by magicking ordinary (muggle produced) 
carpets.

Hope this helps.

Naama




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Feb  7 18:06:43 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:06:43 -0000
Subject: <random>Mrs. Dursley</random>
In-Reply-To: <3A817D5C.1CEE1E29@fenya.net>
Message-ID: <95s2rj+ods1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11846

 Meghan <meg at f...> wrote:
 
> Anyway, I started thinking about it some more, and I realised how 
very
> frightening the parallels are.  The protaganist in Keeping Up
> Appearances is older than Mrs Dursley, of course, but they're both 
very
> determined to be Better than their Neighbors, to be seen as 
Respectable
> -- more than respectable, actually.  And they're both essentially
> lower/lower-middle-class characters trying to be upper/upper-middle
> class.  
> Of course, there's also the fact that Mrs Dursley was named Petunia 
and
> her sister was named Lily, but I dunno if that says something about
> their socio-economic. O.o;
> 
> The main difference is that the protaganist in KUA is desperately 
trying
> to raise her social standing in the midst of her mostly uncaring 
family
> and friends [in fact, most of them either mock her or simply don't
> understand her motivation -- the main exception being her henpecked 
but
> loyal husband, who seems to want to figure out why she wants this so
> badly], but Petunia HAS reached the class she thinks she wants.  The
> only problem is, she's still a very vulgar minded little person 
inside. 
> What interested me is when Petunia snaps and starts screaming about 
how
> Lily was always Better Than She Was -- it seems that JR is implying 
that
> Lily [to borrow a couple of Victorian phrases] has an innate 
nobility of
> soul, etc, that Petunia does not, and Harry has that same innate
> nobility, Cinderella-like.  And Mrs. Dursley hates it.
> 
> Anyway.  All that to say, I wonder if JK is a fan of Keeping Up
> Appearances, or if Petunia is just a certain type that shows up. >_> 

When I first read SS/PS, I thought Petunia's demeanor resembled 
Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced "Boo-kay"), including her opinion of Lily 
and James and her treatment of Dudley (her physical 
description reminds me of a giraffe: blond, long neck, horse face). 
Petunia's fear was that people would find out she was related to the 
Potters, similar to Hyacinth's fear that people would find out about 
Daisy, Onslow, Rose and Daddy. Petunia dotes upon Dudley, much in the 
same way Hyacinth dotes on her son Sheridan, who constantly calls her 
for money.

But the greatest difference between Hyacinth Bucket and Petunia 
Dursley is that Hyacinth has a speaking relationship with her sisters 
Daisy, Rose and Violet ("who drives a Mercedes, lives in a big house 
with room for a pony"). Petunia, according to SS/PS, hadn't spoken 
with Lily in "several years" and that Hyacinth really does love her 
family, though she's incredibly embarassed by them. Petunia shows no 
love for Harry (even Hyacinth attended Daisy's grand-daughter's 
christening!), to the point where I think her doting on Dudley is 
partly out of spite for Harry.

:-)Milz 




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Wed Feb  7 18:14:13 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:14:13 -0000
Subject: News just in - new Harry Potter books
In-Reply-To: <MABBIGDACODGBNGIJCLKEECHCBAA.ganzj@rpi.edu>
Message-ID: <95s39l+2fcp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11848

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jonathan Ganz" <ganzj at r...> wrote:
> I would love some more information on these books. my email is 
ganzj at r...


Incidentally to this thread, for UK residents, you can now pre-
order/reserve your copies of the new books at Waterstones.



Dai




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Feb  7 18:21:01 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:21:01 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: OOPS - The requested file. . . (revised)
Message-ID: <95s3md+je7a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11850

This message is somewhat technical, but potentially affects anyone 
who creates or uses hyperlinks to files (graphics, HTML pages, etc.) 
that are stored in the Files area of any Yahoo Group, including ours. 
This problem is a byproduct of the eGroups transition, and apparently 
went into effect in early February.

Whenever you try to view one of the affected files through your 
browser you will get an error message saying, "OOPS - The requested 
file or directory is not found on the server."  The following 
paragraphs describe the cause and cure for this problem in more 
detail.


******* WARNING: EXTREME GEEKINESS FOLLOWS *********


The reason for this new problem is that Yahoo has changed the way 
that special characters in file and directory names are translated 
into URLs. The "old-style" substitutions were inherited from eGroups, 
but continued to be used on Yahoo Groups for several weeks after the 
changeover.

For example, a blank in a file or directory name used to be 
translated into a "+" sign in the URL.  With the change, blank is now 
represented by "%20".  

The old-style URL for the the directory "Fan Fiction" (which contains 
a blank in the name) was:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan+Fiction/

The new-style URL is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan%20Fiction/

All links that used the old-style substitution characters are now 
broken. To fix existing HTML files, you must edit the hyperlinks and 
correct the file and directory names. It is probably best to visit 
the target file, cut the address shown in the Address Bar, and paste 
it into your document. You should then check that each corrected link 
still works when you have finished editing your file.

Many of the URLs in our old messages are now broken too, and 
unfortunately it's impossible to go back and fix them without 
deleting and reposting. You can still find files that are referred to 
in old messages, but you must manually edit the URLs before your 
browser can open them.  The most common substitutions are "%20" 
for "+" (blank in the original file name), and %27 for apostrophe.  
The underline and dash characters are unchanged. Unfortunately, I 
don't have a record of what the old codes were for any other special 
characters.

This only applies to files that are hosted on yahoo.com and which 
include special characters anywhere in the URL.  Files on other sites 
and which do not contain special characters are not affected.

-Jim Flanagan
Moderator Geek





From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Feb  7 19:44:13 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 13:44:13 -0600
Subject: FF: PoU Harry has Ron-like qualities??? (was RON)
References: <200102070437.f174bXC24122@ccpl.carr.org> <006f01c09116$92963740$4d53d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A81A58D.8DA29DDA@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11851

Hi --

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kathleen Kelly MacMillan" <kathleen at carr.org>
>
> > Well...as an unnamed crewmate mentioned recently, the only reason
> she
> could stand PoU Harry was that he had so many Ron-like qualities in
> him.

I'd be very very interested to know which aspects of PoU Harry's
character are "Ron-like" in your mind (and/or in the mind of your
unnamed crewmate).  Please elaborate.  <g>

PoU Harry is, IMO, very much an accurate extrapolation of Harry 8-9
years post-Hogwarts (and of course 8-9 yrs post-defeat of Voldy).  I
don't see any canon-Ron qualities in PoU Harry.  None.  Are you thinking
that PoU Harry has characteristics that would apply to an adult fanfic
Ron?

Harry in PoU just seems to me to be a grown-up Harry -- aged
realistically.  Well, I probably wouldn't have made him a swing-dancing
ace, but Lori wrote that part in before GoF (and didn't have 14 yr old
Harry's comment about "I don't dance" -- not that 26 yr old Harry
couldn't have had a change of heart somewhere along the way).  Anyway,
the bottom line is that PoU Harry is still very much Harry at base.
Just as PoU Hermione is aged so realistically.  I think Lori did an
excellent job of evaluating the characters and extrapolating their basic
characteristics to come up with believable adult characters for her
fanfic.

IMO, PoU is not just well-written from a technical perspective.  It's
also *believable* -- that's what has made it one of the most followed
and beloved HP fanfics.

> Anyway, this whole thing started with my perfectly innocent comment
> that
> I'm starting to find Harry kinda boring, and it's true--I am really
> more
> interested in the other characters' perspectives at this point.  But
> I've
> said this before, so I'll shut up now and dream of Weasleys...

Like Carole pointed out, you won't get the perspective of any other
characters from canon.  I guess you'll have to be satisfied with the R/H
fanfic offerings.  <g>

Kathy -- I thought you just said yesterday that Harry wasn't all that
boring or you wouldn't be trudging through all these emails every day.
I must admit to a bit of confusion.  I think you're saying that he's
boring as a potential romantic partner but not so boring as a character
that you can't stand to read about him????  Can you clarify?  I confess
to being a bit confused about the whole "Harry is boring" line.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jessenigma at aol.com  Wed Feb  7 20:01:05 2001
From: jessenigma at aol.com (jessenigma at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:01:05 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Poster's Hall of Fame/Magic Carpets
Message-ID: <6f.10cf477b.27b30381@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11852

In a message dated 2/7/2001 12:45:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
ebonyink at hotmail.com writes:

> According to the Harry Potter series, magic carpets are illegal in England. 
 
>  I'd like not only the quote (it's by Fudge and somewhere around the 
>  beginning of GoF, but I can't find it!), but also the rationalization of 
why 
> 
>  this may indeed be the case.  Aladdin, anyone?

I believe it's because some poor innocent Muggle could find a magic carpet 
and put it in their living room. The same reason why enchanting Muggle items 
was illegal. I certainly would be shocked if I stepped onto my new carpet and 
I started floating. I'm pretty sure that was the reason Mr. Weasley gave. I'd 
check to be sure, but my copy of GoF*  is a mile away at my dad's house. 

jessica

*[a quick anecdote--in my algebra class, we were studying functions, one of 
which was G of F of x, abbreviated to GoF....I snickered every time I looked 
at it, though I certainly did remember what it meant on tests]


--
www.blacklady.nu



From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Feb  7 20:32:00 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:32:00 -0000
Subject: FF/SHIP: RE: Changing the subject line b/c Harry's too boring for it  
In-Reply-To: <006f01c09116$92963740$4d53d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <95sbc0+kbl8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11853


Kathy wrote: Well...as an unnamed crewmate mentioned recently, the 
only reason she could stand PoU Harry was that he had so many Ron-
like qualities in him.

Penny wrote: I'd be very very interested to know which aspects of PoU 
Harry's character are "Ron-like" in your mind (and/or in the mind of 
your unnamed crewmate).  Please elaborate.  <g>

They are both carbon-based life forms? Ninety percent of both their 
bodies is water? <g> I'm with Carole there, I don't see any 
similarities between PoU Harry and canon Ron. I am fond of PoU Harry 
and find his personality generally appealing. I also find canon Ron's 
personality generally appealing. It does not therefore follow that 
they have the same personality. I don't mean to tear down the theory, 
I just don't understand it. PoU Harry seems to me to be a plausible 
extrapolation of canon Harry, including his resentment of fame and 
the insecurity about being loved that comes from having spent one's 
formative years locked in a cupboard. Neither of these qualities is, 
to me, at all Ron-like. PoU Harry is funnier than canon Harry, but 
then again he's also funnier than canon Ron. I think that has more to 
do with his being older and Lori having a wicked sense of humor than 
him being at all like Ron. Face it, in canon neither Harry *nor* Ron 
talks in Buffy quotes. <g>

  
Kathy wrote: I  personally would take Ron any day...and anyone who 
thinks a Ron-type can't have depth and personality isn't looking 
closely enough.
> 
I don't think anyone said or implied that. I hope not. The outpouring 
of support for Harry and the statements that we don't find him 
boring, but instead very loveable, were not meant to denigrate Ron by 
extension.  

Kathy wrote: 
Anyway, this whole thing started with my perfectly innocent comment 
that I'm starting to find Harry kinda boring, and it's true--I am 
really more interested in the other characters' perspectives at this 
point.

*confused* But the only character's perspective we get in canon is 
Harry's. The only perspective we will ever get in canon is Harry's. 
JKR has shown no inclination or likelihood to to tell the story from 
Ron's POV. She lives firmly in Harry's head and so, by extension, do 
we. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant, since the only place I 
see that we will ever get other characters' perspectives is in 
fanfic. And much as I love fanfic, I can't imagine preferring it to 
the books.

Rita wrote:
I WATCH THE SHIPPER DEBATES and mourn that I can offer no evidence 
from canon, no evidence from books about marriage counselling, but 
only a
statement about what *I* can and can't imagine.  The only circumstance
in which I can imagine Ron and Hermione having a romantic, sexual, or
marriage relationship that lasts longer than briefly is IF Harry died
and his death traumatised both of them so much that they each 
dedicated the rest of their life to enshrining his memory, and after 
several years they both got the idea that, being as how they like 
each other as friends, and they have the same obsession, and they've 
worked together well on projects, and neither of them has anything 
even vaguely resembling a love life, it would make sense for them to 
get married and have a son named Harry.

*Is laughing too hard to type.* Wow. It must be fun being a no-
shipper. You can get away with saying all sorts of stuff the rest of 
us can't.

<g>

Cassie




From sarvalsha at dellnet.com  Wed Feb  7 20:35:04 2001
From: sarvalsha at dellnet.com (sarvalsha at dellnet.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:35:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter 29 Summary: The Dream
Message-ID: <95sbho+cnq0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11854

I'd like to apologize for the fact that this is so late. I was on 
target but was felled by a virus of the human kind. I did try to post 
this from home but my service provider `upgraded' their service which 
apparently disabled my email capability. So I had to wait until I got 
back to work to post this. 

The Lupin character discussion is written. I just need to key it in 
so I will post it later today.


GOF Chapter 29 

It's early in the morning after Mr. Crouch's disappearance.
Our trio is in the owlery, having just sent a note to Sirius about 
the previous night's events. They are rehashing what Crouch said and 
speculating on who is responsible. Ron's first suggests it may be 
Krum but this theory fails to pass Hermione's logic. He then suggests 
that Snape deliberately delayed Harry reaching Professor Dumbledore, 
perhaps to allow himself time to reach the forest before them.

As they continue their discussion, they hear voices drifting up the 
stairs, discussing blackmail and a big payoff. The voices belong to 
Fred and George. When Ron confronts them, they pass it all off as a 
joke and tell Ron to mind his own business.

After the twins mail their letter and leave, Ron tells Harry and 
Hermione about the twins' desire to open a joke shop and their 
obsession with obtaining gold for that purpose. He is worried they 
might be willing to break laws to get it. But when Hermione suggests 
telling Percy, Ron refuses.

The trio go looking for Moody as soon as is practicable. He says he 
did not find Mr. Crouch despite using the Marauder's Map. The 
discussion continues on what happened, this time centering on the 
possibility of kidnap. Moody attempts to redirect Harry's
attention back to the third task and Ron and Hermione's to looking 
after Harry.

Sirius' reply to their letter arrives the next morning saying
much the same thing as Moody: keep safe, concentrate on the task, 
stay close to Ron and Hermione. Harry refuses to believe he is any 
real danger. It is Hermione who insists Moody and Sirius are right.

Over the next few days, the trio work on hexes that might aid Harry. 
Then on Monday afternoon, Harry and Ron go up to Divination. The room 
is stifling; Trelawney starts her lesson on the current placement of 
Mars. And Harry drifts off to sleep . . .

Harry is flying on the back of an eagle owl to an old house on a 
hill, through a broken window, into a dark, boarded up room at the 
end of a hall. Two figures are on the floor beside a chair: a huge 
snake and a small man. A cold voice is heard ? Voldemort's voice. He 
tells Wormtail that Wormtail's mistake hasn't ruined everything; 
someone is dead. Voldemort then tells Nagini that he will not be 
feeding Wormtail to him but, not to worry, there is still Harry 
Potter. Then he disciplines Wormtail using the Cruciatus curse. As 
Wormtail screams, the pain starts in Harry's scar. Pain so bad he 
begins to scream as well . . .

Harry awakens to find himself on the floor of the classroom with the 
rest of the class standing over him, including the ghoulish Professor 
Trelawney. While the other students are described as terrified and 
unnerved, Trelawney is excited by what happened and frustrated by 
Harry's refusal to stay and share his experience.

Harry says he is going to the hospital wing but goes instead to 
Professor Dumbledore's office. When he gets there, he overhears 
Fudge, Professor Dumbledore, and Moody talking. Fudge foreshadows his 
refusal to acknowledge Voldemort's return by rejecting Professor 
Dumbledore's theory that Bertha Jorkins' disappearance was due to 
foul play and is linked to Crouch's. Instead he prefers to suspect 
Madame Maxime simply because of her parentage. Moody ends the 
discussion by revealing Harry's presence outside the door.


QUESTIONS/ISSUES
Many of the issues and questions brought up by this chapter have been 
discussed previously. However members may wish to continue the 
discussions.

1. You are Hermione. Harry and/or Ron has just speculated that 
someone apparated/disapparated on the Hogwarts grounds . . . yet 
again. What do you do?

2. Harry jokes that the only way Snape could have gotten to the 
forbidden forest before Harry and Professor Dumbledore was to turn 
himself into a bat or something. Is Snape a bat (animagus, vampire, 
etc.)?

3. The twins compare Ron to Percy and say he will be made a prefect 
if he continues meddling. Why does this make Ron so angry?

4. Ron thinks the twins capable of law-breaking to gain gold for 
their joke shop and Percy capable of turning the twins in. Is Ron 
just a bad judge of character or are either of these two things 
likely to happen?

5. Moody suggests Hermione consider becoming an Auror; he had 
previously said the same thing to Harry. Considering Moody's
physical and mental scars, would you want Harry and/or Hermione to 
make that career choice?

6. What kind of teacher is excited when a student starts rolling on 
the floor screaming in pain, and frustrated when the student insists 
on going for medical help?

7. Sirius had previously told Harry to seek out Professor Dumbledore 
the next time his scar hurt, and Harry actually does it. How big of a 
step forward is this for a kid who has previously avoided confiding 
in anyone or asking for help?


Margaret







From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 21:19:35 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:19:35 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF/SHIP: RE: Changing the subject line b/c Harry's too boring for it
Message-ID: <F81TgFVLCSmDqbJ51hS0000a58c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11855

I can't believe I'm actually replying to this!  :::dons asbestos suit:::

>Kathy wrote: I  personally would take Ron any day...and anyone who
>thinks a Ron-type can't have depth and personality isn't looking
>closely enough.
> >
>Cassie wrote:  I don't think anyone said or implied that. I hope not. The 
>outpouring of support for Harry and the statements that we don't find him 
>boring, but instead very loveable, were not meant to denigrate Ron by 
>extension.

I wholeheartedly agree with Carole, Penny, and Cassie's take on this.  I 
think that the problem is that we *don't* know enough about Ron yet to 
extrapolate a whole lot.  The Ron I'm writing is not a realistic future for 
canon Ron.  (Seeker?  Galleonaire?  Lady-killer?)  It's fanfic, so I can do 
whatever I want, but I've caricaturized a lot.  I don't even think canon Ron 
would *want* the career, wealth, and social status I've ascribed to him in 
adulthood.

We know about Ron's family, we know some of his attributes and talents and 
skills, but IMO in the four books Hermione has had quite a bit more of the 
spotlight than he has.  I really think that it's Ron's turn to shine in 
future books.

Unless, of course, JKR has a reason for not shining the spotlight fully on 
him in PoA and GoF.  I suspect that she might.

I know JKR says that Ginny will be developed more in the fifth book, but the 
Weasley I want to know more about is *Ron*.  What's going on in his head?  I 
would have loved to know what his thoughts were in GoF.  Perhaps then I'd be 
able to understand him better.

I don't think Ron's boring.  I just don't understand some of his 
motivations, and would really like to.  The argument that he is a typical 14 
year old boy just isn't convincing me... being a 14 year old boy wasn't 
enough to bother me while reading GoF.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  7 21:54:09 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:54:09 -0000
Subject: Chapter 29 Summary: The Dream
In-Reply-To: <95sbho+cnq0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95sg61+v02u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11856

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sarvalsha at d... wrote:

> 
> 2. Harry jokes that the only way Snape could have gotten to the 
> forbidden forest before Harry and Professor Dumbledore was to turn 
> himself into a bat or something. Is Snape a bat (animagus, vampire, 
> etc.)?

Doubt it.  With as many unregistered animagi as we've come across so 
far, too many more would not only make the Ministry and Dumbledore 
both look foolish, but also dilute the effect.  And I just don't see 
Snape beign a vampire, as much as he looks the part.

> 3. The twins compare Ron to Percy and say he will be made a prefect 
> if he continues meddling. Why does this make Ron so angry?

Because he knows how it was intended, I think.  Ron's frustrated 
because he's genuinely worried about his brothers, and they're teasing 
him to distract him from the issue at hand.  
 
> 4. Ron thinks the twins capable of law-breaking to gain gold for 
> their joke shop and Percy capable of turning the twins in. Is Ron 
> just a bad judge of character or are either of these two things 
> likely to happen?

I think it's possible, if not likely.  I don't think Fred and George 
would ever intentionally hurt anyone, or steal money from someone, but 
if they saw something as being a victimless crime, they might try it.  
They were, after all, dabbling in blackmail, however well-deserved.  
Rule-breaking hasn't bothered them, or Harry & co either, for that 
matter, so why would law-breaking, if they thought it was a dumb or 
useless law?  Stricktly speaking, the toilet-seat they sent to Harry 
in the hospital wing would constitute either stealing or vandalism.

As for Percy, I think he might well turn them in, if he believed it 
the right thing to do.

> 
> 5. Moody suggests Hermione consider becoming an Auror; he had 
> previously said the same thing to Harry. Considering Moody's
> physical and mental scars, would you want Harry and/or Hermione to 
> make that career choice?

Well, my first concern is that it's not Moody making the suggestion, 
but a dark wizard of the type they would be fighting as aurors.  I get 
the impression he's making fun of them a little.  He's got the whole 
school fooled, and these kids are trusting him pretty much completely.   
Yeah, if I were a dark wizard, I'd want people I could fool as aurors!  
But of course the game wasn't over yet - he got cocky a little too 
soon.  

But as for the real Moody's scars, yeah, that gave me pause.  But 
surely all aurors aren't like that!

> 6. What kind of teacher is excited when a student starts rolling on 
> the floor screaming in pain, and frustrated when the student insists 
> on going for medical help?

The kind that delights in predicting their deaths? ;)

> 
> 7. Sirius had previously told Harry to seek out Professor Dumbledore 
> the next time his scar hurt, and Harry actually does it. How big of 
a 
> step forward is this for a kid who has previously avoided confiding 
> in anyone or asking for help?

It's nice that he's finally able to trust at least a few adults, isn't 
it?  I think it's wonderful!

kimberly




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Wed Feb  7 23:40:28 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:40:28 -0000
Subject: Hermione 
Message-ID: <95smdc+oc3c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11857

Everyone (well not everyone but anyways) has been talking about how 
rude Hermione was when she first met Harry but I don't think that nor 
do I really think JK wanted her to come out seeming rude, but wanted 
to introduce to you Hermione's viocefulness, knowledge, and tendency 
to read a lot of books.  Yes it was not extremely sensitive but she 
didn't know that Harry had recently found out the truth about his 
parents.  I'm sure the books told her that Harry was living with his 
relatives like I figure the wizarding world knew, they did NOT know 
that things were being kept secret from Harry.  Most would have 
thought that Harry had grown up knowing who he was and what had 
happened so probly wasn't really really sensitive about being 
reminded about it as they figured he was reminded about it simply 
looking in the mirror.   Hermione was simply stated the fact that he 
knew about him through some books.  She didn't say anything about his 
parents or went into detail about what happened or anything but that 
she knew who he was.  That could have been her way of saying `see, I 
am smart even concerning Wizarding things even though I'm muggle 
born' or like I sorta said and think she was stated a fact and didn't 
mean anything by it nor would to her knowledge cause a problem and it 
didn't, Harry didn't start thinking all this bad stuff about her and 
that she was this nude meany who almost made him cry.  Lay off 
Hermione, I can see myself saying something stupid like that when 
meeting a famous person and wouldn't mean anything rude of mean as 
the person would realize like Harry did.

~Star~
sorry if this does sound rude or is offensive to anyone I don't want 
it to be taken like that nor do I want anyone to think something ill 
of me those or just my thoughts and I'm stating them.   





From sarvalsha at dellnet.com  Thu Feb  8 00:36:51 2001
From: sarvalsha at dellnet.com (sarvalsha at dellnet.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:36:51 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin
Message-ID: <95spn3+6j72@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11858

Each of Harry Potter's previous DADA teachers had been different. 
Different in the sense of being separate people and different in the 
sense of being unusual. His 3rd year teacher is no exception; but it 
isn't until the end of the year that Harry finds out how unusual.

But even their first meeting is different. Professor Remus J. Lupin 
travels to Hogwarts on the train with the students. None of the other 
professors had ever traveled this way. Then, when confronted with a 
dementor, Professor Lupin proves to be what the previous DADA 
teachers had not: knowledgeable about the subject. He chases the 
dementor away and provides an antidote to the students.   

When classes start, it is obvious that not only does he know his 
subject, but he knows the way to teach it in a manner which educates 
and entertains his students at the same time. Only those students who 
value appearance over competence do not rate DADA as their favorite 
subject.

He also exhibits a concern for his students not shared with the 
previous DADA, or even some of the current, teachers. He consistently 
provides guidance and support to even the most humble of students. In 
his very first class, he sets up Neville Longbottom for a prominent 
role and success in beating the boggart, ignoring both Snape's and 
Neville's own disbelief in his ability. He also uses his own time to 
tutor Harry in dealing with the dementors.

Professor Lupin is unusual in another way, a way which appears 
important although we do not know why. Unlike a majority of the 
wizarding world, Lupin calls Voldemort by his name instead of He Who 
Must Not Be Named.

>From a personality point of view, one of Lupin's most noticeable 
characteristics is his quiet self control. He doesn't panic,
whether he is faced with a dementor or with Snape waving the 
Marauder's Map in front of his face. He doesn't get angry
even when provoked. He doesn't even take offense when insulted. 
(Although he does get a little subtle revenge by dressing
Neville's Snape boggart in Neville's grandmother's
clothes.) 

He has a wry sense of humor, once teasing Harry about Professor 
Trelawney's tea leaves' prediction of doom. He gets along with
the other staff members, with one notable exception: Snape. It is not 
strange that Snape dislikes him; Snape has disliked the previous DADA 
teachers. But then he had reason: one was a Voldemort supporter and 
the other a charlatan. But Snape's dislike for Lupin is apparent from 
the opening day feast, long before he could have a valid reason. And 
it isn't simple dislike. Snape looks at Lupin with the same loathing 
he has previously reserved for Harry alone.  

But of course Lupin is not perfect. He has a problem with intimacy. 
For example, he is reluctant at first to tutor Harry. Then, during 
one of their sessions when Harry needs a little emotional support, 
Lupin seems to want to provide it but draws back instead. He even 
fails to tell Harry that he and Harry's father were friends at school 
until it slips out during a session.

Then there is his health. He is frequently ill with some mysterious 
malady which leaves him debilitated for days afterward. It is 
obviously having a permanent effect as well since he looks 
prematurely old and grey.    

And like his predecessors, Lupin has a secret. A secret which 
explains his remoteness and his physical frailty. This secret is 
known to the staff at Hogwarts. And to one of the students. 

For Lupin is a werewolf. A fact which has had an enormous effect on 
his life. The physical impact is obvious. But the emotional impact 
has been and continues to be even greater.

Like Harry, Lupin had an isolated childhood. And Like Harry, he found 
friendship and acceptance at Hogwarts. But the secret remained and 
had to be protected even there. 

And even his friendships collapsed under the weight of the prejudice 
against werewolves. When it became apparent that someone was 
providing information to Voldemort, it was Lupin who was blamed 
(although he was unaware of it at the time). 

He is also living with an enormous burden of guilt. Professor 
Dumbledore set up safeguards which allowed him to come to school. 
Safeguards he and his friends ignored, putting themselves and others 
at risk. And now that Professor Dumbledore has provided him with a 
job, he is withholding information about Sirius Black which may be 
putting Harry at risk. He even blames himself for leading his friends 
into becoming Animagi, although it is more likely given their 
respective personalities, that this was actually Sirius and
James' idea.

All of this, the isolation, the fear, and the guilt, could have 
caused Lupin to become an embittered recluse. Instead he is a kind, 
generous soul with a genuine feeling for people, especially those in 
need of support.

His quiet self control has obviously been hard-won. It's an
attribute necessary for protecting his secret. It's also a 
compensating mechanism for being totally out of control once a month.

It is Lupin's quietness and his kindness that make him one of my 
favorite characters and his presence which makes POA my favorite 
book. I'm looking forward to his reappearance in Order of the
Phoenix.


QUESTIONS/ISSUES
1. There has been discussion previously about whether Lupin was on 
the train to guard the students against the dementors and/or Sirius 
and whether he was actually asleep. Those ideas started a thought 
process which ended with this: Why was Lupin hired this year as 
opposed to any other year? Was he hired specifically because of his 
relationship with Sirius? Did Professor Dumbledore use this 
relationship to get his hiring past the objections of the Ministry of 
Magic?

2. Snape provides Lupin with Wolfsbane potion. Lupin admits to not 
being good at potions. How did he obtain the potion before he came to 
Hogswarts? Or did he?

3. If Snape hates Sirius more, why does Snape concentrate on Lupin 
first in the Shrieking Shack?

4. Hagrid created a photo album of Harry's parents by requesting 
pictures from James and Lily's friends. Lupin would have been the 
closest one left. Are there photos of Lupin in the album and if so, 
why didn't Harry recognize him?

5. What does the J. stand for?


Margaret







From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  8 00:51:39 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:51:39 -0000
Subject: Magic carpets & broomsticks, was Re: Poster's Hall of Fame/Magic Carpets
In-Reply-To: <95rpqp+mvmc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95sqir+tpot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11859

LOL, Steve! But I thought you were avoiding fanfiction- now you just 
wrote some!


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
Something too long to quote again! It's message 11833 if you want to 
read it (which you should)





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Thu Feb  8 01:10:47 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:10:47 -0000
Subject: Ages of Hogwarts First Years (was Ron & Quidditch)
In-Reply-To: <F42RhpDrwuce0Xh5AS800007f21@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95srmn+47cl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11860

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> I think if she was a seventh year at the time, it would have 
automatically been assumed that she is seventeen, and Harry would 
have never thought to ask if she was.  I read the conversation as 
rationalizing to the reader *why* someone previously assumed to have 
been in the same year as the twins/Chasers was able to enter the 
contest.
> 
> This gets right back into our debate about the Hogwarts cut-off 
date for entrance.  *Must* the child be 11 on September 1?  If so, 
then Angelina is a sixth year in GoF.  However, that means that 
Hermione's almost a year older than Harry and perhaps older than Ron 
as well, since JKR has expressly stated that her birthday is 
September 19.  (Sidenote--*why* hasn't anyone asked JKR about Ron's 
birthday?)
> 


I believe Hermione was a "young" first year student and was 10 years 
old for the 1st two and a half weeks of term.  My basis for this is 
that *my* birthday is September 18 (oh if only Jo had made Hermione's 
birthday on the 18th!)  and I was only 4 when I started kindergarten, 
but soon turned 5.  I was always one of the youngest in my class and 
graduated high school at age of 17.  

Also, Jo has said that a magical quill writes the names of all 
magical children born and they are then notified the *year* they turn 
11.  So I think that, for example, all children who turn 11 in 2001 
would be first years in the 2001-2002 school year.  (Just because the 
Muggle schools have a cut-off date of September 1 doesn't necessarily 
mean that the wizard schools do.)  

My two knuts.

Trina




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Feb  8 01:20:32 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:20:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin
References: <95spn3+6j72@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A81F460.68BE2DB8@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11861

First, the confessional part of the email. Sirius is sexy, Draco is
intriguing and Harry is just the star of the universe.
But like JKR herself, I want to have Professor Remus Lupin teach my
child (well, most of the month, at least)

sarvalsha at dellnet.com wrote:

> QUESTIONS/ISSUES
> 2. Snape provides Lupin with Wolfsbane potion. Lupin admits to not
> being good at potions. How did he obtain the potion before he came to
> Hogswarts? Or did he?

I have to assume he didn't. And I'm not sure that "not being good at
potions" is why he couldn't make it for himnself - maybe it was just a
cover. If it's called Wolfsbane, then it likely contains that herb,
which is damaging to werewolves in its freshly grown form, according to
folklore. Therefore, even if he was excellent at mixing potions, he
wouldn't've been able to touch one of the ingredients - so someone else
had to make it for him. And if he's not great at making potions, is it
because he missed too many experiments while in school because he
couldn't mix anything that contained Aconite (another name for
wolfsbane, as Harry learns in snape's first class, first year)

> 3. If Snape hates Sirius more, why does Snape concentrate on Lupin
> first in the Shrieking Shack?

Maybe because Lupin has a wand? Good question!

> 4. Hagrid created a photo album of Harry's parents by requesting
> pictures from James and Lily's friends. Lupin would have been the
> closest one left. Are there photos of Lupin in the album and if so,
> why didn't Harry recognize him?

Sirius was barely recognizable - remus also has probably changed a lot
in the previous 15-25 years. If you saw a picture of me from 15 years
ago, or even 10, and met me now, it wouldn't look like the same person.
Or maybe Remus was the Colin Creevy of the group, always taking
pictures, never apeparing in them...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  8 02:57:21 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:57:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] That's an Auror! (filk)
References: <981301438.159.42041.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000801c0917a$dbd6d0e0$25c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11862

That's An Auror!

(To the tune of That's Amore!)

(THE SCENE: Gryffindor Common Room.  Students are enthusiastically
discussing their new DADA Professor, Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody.)

HARRY AND RON
Who's a wizard so cool even George says he rules?
That's an Auror!

GEORGE AND FRED
Who's a man of stout heart missing some body parts?
That's an Auror!

NEVILLE AND LEE
Where dark forces crept he is quite adept, he will  intercept 'em even as
they slept
He is cunning!
Nothing can deter, moving like a blur, he will soon inter 'em into the stir
Swiftly stunning!

HARRY & GEORGE
Who may get somewhat vexed when his dustbins are hexed?

ALL
That's an Auror!

RON & FRED
Who becomes more intense through Constant Vigilance?

ALL
That's an Auror!

RON & NEVILLE
There's a certain curse which is quite adverse leaves you much the worse in
class he will rehearse
With a spider
As we look askance he will make it dance puts it in a trance loses its last
chance
Up 'n' died 'ere.

HARRY & LEE
Whose all covered in scars earned in Dark Wizard wars?

ALL
That's an Auror!

RON & NEVILLE
With his magical optic that can penetrate solid brick.........

GEORGE & FRED
He may be paranoid, but we pair aren't annoyed, nor are we sore
We don't mind paranoia 'cause he bounces Malfoy-a............

ALL
............................................................................
......He's an Auror!

     - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  8 03:07:13 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:07:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail and Wormtongue and Wormwood
References: <981527990.7269.22004.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c0917c$3ceb4e00$25c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11863

 Message: 16
>    Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:32:13 -0000
>    From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Wormtail and Wormtongue and Wormwood
>

> Whether JKR was deliberately (or even unconsciously) alluding to
> Wormtongue and Wormwood or not, Wormtail has an unpleasant sound to
> it, IMO.

In a preface to Screwtape, CS Lewis wrote, "The names of my devils have
excited a great deal of curiosity, and there have been many explanations,
all wrong. The truth is I merely aimed at making them nasty....by the
sound.....I fancy that Scrooge, screw, thumbscrew, tapeworm, and red tape
all do some work in my hero's name, and that slob, slobber,slubber, and gob
have all gone into Slubgob."

BTW, Slubgob, mentioned at several points in Screwtape, is the head of the
Training College for Young Tempters - i.e., he is the Albus Dumbledore of
Hell.

   - CMC




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 03:23:59 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 03:23:59 
Subject: Poster's Hall of Fame/Magic Carpets
Message-ID: <F17nFl0YldT6d3OCcSk0000b614@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11864

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
>
>Conjectured timeline of carpet and broomstick avionics...

This from the Resident HP Archivist, who does not read or write fanfic.  
<eg>  Judging from his excellent History of Magical Transportation, I think 
we've got another convert...

Thanks a lot, Steve.  This helps more than you know... I'd forgotten that 
carpets were legal at one time, and as I'm currently re-reading SS and not 
GoF, you've saved me a lot of time.

Not to mention the fact that you should post your fic (yes, it was a fic!  
LOL!) somewhere.  I guarantee you'll be irrevocably hooked by your fiftieth 
hit and your twentieth review.

Corrupting the fandom with a friendly smile,

Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ...

H/H Special Agent, First Class
Semi-Official PoU List Patronus
Ninth Runner-Up for HP4GU Uberposter

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From sage016 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  8 03:49:03 2001
From: sage016 at yahoo.com (Kristen)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 03:49:03 -0000
Subject: FF: PoU Harry has Ron-like qualities??? (was RON)
In-Reply-To: <3A81A58D.8DA29DDA@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95t4vf+dger@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11865

where can i read PoU?  everytime i see a link for it its a broken 
link.

thanks
kriste




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 04:01:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:01:25 -0000
Subject: Lupin - The Dream - Harry's trust (long)
In-Reply-To: <95spn3+6j72@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95t5ml+3c1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11866

Margaret wrote:

> But of course Lupin is not perfect. He has a problem with intimacy. 
> For example, he is reluctant at first to tutor Harry. Then, during 
> one of their sessions when Harry needs a little emotional support, 
> Lupin seems to want to provide it but draws back instead. He even 
> fails to tell Harry that he and Harry's father were friends at 
> school until it slips out during a session.

and also:

>7. Sirius had previously told Harry to seek out Professor Dumbledore 
>the next time his scar hurt, and Harry actually does it. How big of a 
>step forward is this for a kid who has previously >avoided confiding 
>in anyone or asking for help?

It's interesting that these two topics were scheduled for the same 
week, since I see a connection between these observations.  

The Lupin/Harry interactions are some of my very favorite parts of the 
whole series.  Harry also has what you might call a problem with 
intimacy, especially, as you point out, when it comes to asking for 
advice or help (even from Dumbledore, whom he trusts so much).  His 
first one-on-one conversation with Lupin marks a breakthrough, despite 
Lupin's own reticence:  Lupin asks him whether anything is worrying 
him, he says no, then he takes the plunge and tells Lupin what's on 
his mind--in contrast to his decision in the similar conversation with 
Dumbledore in CS.  Maybe it *isn't* despite Lupin's reticence but 
*because* of it; maybe Harry picks up on Lupin's reserve that is so 
like his own, and responds to it by trusting him.  

Harry's going to Dumbledore in "The Dream" is a big step in a gradual 
evolution toward being more open, trusting, and willing to seek 
counsel from adults.  When he first enters the wizarding world, Harry 
has every reason to believe that adults are not to be trusted or even 
approached (rule #1 of living with the Dursleys:  don't ask 
questions).  I think Lupin's surprising and gratifying response in 
that first conversation--admitting that he'd deliberately stopped 
Harry from facing the boggart, using Voldemort's name, and 
giving voice to Harry's fear that Lupin had been thinking him 
weak--helps Harry take the bigger step later in PA of confiding to him 
what the Dementors do to him, something he's been keeping even from 
Ron and Hermione.  Harry opens up in ways we've never seen him do--I'm 
thinking particularly of his declaration of trust and (as he thinks) 
betrayal in the Shrieking Shack ("I trusted you, and all the time 
you've been his friend") and of how quickly and passionately he 
responds when he learns Lupin has resigned.  Harry's relationship with 
Lupin lays the groundwork for his trusting Sirius at the beginning of 
GF and then, finally, trusting him enough to tell Dumbledore about his 
scar as Sirius has told him to (I agree, this is a big moment).

Lupin seems a little distant, reserved to a fault perhaps, to those of 
us who are generally trusting and wear our hearts on our sleeves (I 
noticed how often he speaks "coolly").  But Harry probably wouldn't 
think it odd that Lupin didn't volunteer the fact that he'd known 
Harry's parents or that he holds back from putting an arm around him, 
and it isn't surprising that Harry reproaches himself for asking Lupin 
about Black, rather than reproaching Lupin for being so closemouthed 
about something of urgent importance to Harry.  The latter response 
might be expected from a kid (such as Ron or Hermione) who is 
accustomed to adults' being a source of advice, information, and 
comfort.  But for Harry, with his background of neglect and secrecy, 
Lupin is a huge stride forward:  an adult who doesn't pry or show his 
own inner life much, but who is kind and concerned and therefore helps 
draw out Harry's own trust.

Thoughts?

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
  "Cool, sir!" said Dean Thomas in amazement.
  "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin.
                -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Feb  8 04:09:44 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:09:44 -0000
Subject: That's an Auror! (filk)
In-Reply-To: <000801c0917a$dbd6d0e0$25c44b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <95t668+4duu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11867

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> That's An Auror!
> 
> (To the tune of That's Amore!)
>
Oh, Caius, you've done it again! Just the title cracked me up,
Pippin





From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Feb  8 04:12:56 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:12:56 -0000
Subject: Ages of Hogwarts First Years (now it's Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <95srmn+47cl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95t6c8+p1l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11868

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> 
> I believe Hermione was a "young" first year student and was 10 
> years old for the 1st two and a half weeks of term.  My basis for
> this is that *my* birthday is September 18 (oh if only Jo had made
> Hermione's birthday on the 18th!)

Trina, could it be that you and Hermione were born at the same time 
because of the different time zones? It's still 9pm Sept 18 
here in California when it becomes Sept 19 in New York. And London 
turned to Sept 19 five hours before NYC did...

> and I was only 4 when I started kindergarten, but soon turned 5.
> I was always one of the youngest in my class and graduated high
> school at age of 17.  

My birthday is November 7 (yes, I'm a Scorpio). I was lucky enough to 
start kindergarten in a school district that in those days had 
December 1 as their cut-off date, so I also was only 4 when I started 
kindergarten. Then I was lucky enough that some changes from public 
school to private school to a different public school district were 
worked in such a way that I skipped one semester each move, total of 
one year. I was 16 for my first two months of college and all the 
girls in my dorm freaked out that my mother would allow someone so 
young to go out of state.
> 
> Also, Jo has said that a magical quill writes the names of all 
> magical children born and they are then notified the *year* they
> turn 11.  So I think that, for example, all children who turn 11 in
> 2001 would be first years in the 2001-2002 school year.

I feel sure that the list of children who turn 11 that 'year' is a 
school year or a cut-off to cut-off year, not a modern calendar year. 
The time of beginning of the Muggle calendar year has changed a few 
times over the 1000+ years of Hogwarts's history -- the latest change 
was from starting on April 1 to starting on January 1 and supposedly 
the origin of April Fools Day was making fun of old fashioned people 
by wishing them Happy New Year. France changed to January 1 before 
England did, and for a time, English people writing letters in Jan, 
Feb, or Mar put a date like February 7, 2000/2001.

I grew up accustomed to a September 1 to August 31 year, because 
that's the 'water year' of California. Southern California rain and 
Northern California snow (the stuff that fills (hopefully fills!) the 
reservoirs when it melts) fall in a rainy season roughly December to 
March, and it wouldn't make sense to divide one season's rainfall 
between two years.

I always think that the magic quill would do better to write the 
names of all magical children in Britain who turn 11 between [cut-off 
date last year] and [cut-off date this year]. Besides some children 
might unfortunately die between birth and age 11, some children will 
have been born in another country before immigrating with their 
parents, and some born in Britain may have emigrated.

> Just because the  Muggle schools have a cut-off date of 
> September 1 doesn't necessarily mean that the wizard schools do.) 

Just because wizarding schools' cut-off date isn't (might not be) 
September 1 doesn't mean it's December 31. We could take care of 
getting Hermione into Hogwarts 2.5 weeks before her birthday by 
making the cut-off date September 30 -- or September 20 -- or Autumn 
Equinox, which is an idea that I like. 





From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  8 04:21:22 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:21:22 -0500
Subject: FF: PoU link
References: <95t4vf+dger@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003901c09186$9a831160$256bd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11869


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kristen" <sage016 at yahoo.com>


> where can i read PoU?  everytime i see a link for it its a broken
> link.
>
> thanks
> kriste

try this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty

just updated the link the other day so it should work.  Go to the main page
and click on files.  You should get a folder for each story posted there
(PoU, STNE, ASA, DD, and DS)

Have fun and review

carole





From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Feb  8 04:26:32 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:26:32 -0000
Subject: Poster's Hall of Fame/Magic Carpets
In-Reply-To: <F17nFl0YldT6d3OCcSk0000b614@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95t75o+p1o3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11870

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> >
> >Conjectured timeline of carpet and broomstick avionics...
> 
> This from the Resident HP Archivist, who does not read or write 
fanfic.  
> <eg>  Judging from his excellent History of Magical Transportation, 
I think 
> we've got another convert...

Naw. That was a parody, not fanfic. 


> 
> Thanks a lot, Steve.  This helps more than you know... I'd 
forgotten that 
> carpets were legal at one time, and as I'm currently re-reading SS 
and not 
> GoF, you've saved me a lot of time.

As the Lexicon is designed to do. When you need the facts, you can 
always go to the Lexicon. <<insert sound of blowing my own horn>>


> 
> Not to mention the fact that you should post your fic (yes, it was 
a fic!  
> LOL!) somewhere.  I guarantee you'll be irrevocably hooked by your 
fiftieth 
> hit and your twentieth review.

That wasn't fanfic. And it IS posted, on the Lexicon, part of the 
Hogwarts Journal, which is also where all these wonderful filk songs 
are being published, along with some other excellent parodies. And 
the Lexicon gets more than fifty hits per HOUR in the afternoons, so 
hah. Read my lips. NOT FANFIC.



So what's this about reviews?

Steve "Not Hooked" Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
100% pure, sanitized for your protection
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Feb  8 04:30:45 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:30:45 -0000
Subject: (Wolfbane Potion and) Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <3A81F460.68BE2DB8@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <95t7dl+fo38@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11871

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> First, the confessional part of the email. (snip) But like JKR
> herself, I want to have Professor Remus Lupin teach my child 
> (well, most of the month, at least)

First, the confessional part of the email -- if I could choose 
between having Remus as my (hypothetical) child's teacher or as my 
lover, I'd selfishly choose the latter.
> 
> And I'm not sure that "not being good at potions" is why he 
> couldn't make [Wolfbane Potion] for himnself - maybe it was just a
> cover.

Altho' I am *deeply* comforted by the thought that even the 
intellectual Marauder isn't good at EVERY subject.

There has been much speculation about WHEN the Wolfbane Potion was 
invented -- any time from when Remus left school to the time that 
he started teaching at Hogwarts -- some people seem to think that 
SNAPE invented it between the time that Lupin agreed to replace 
Lockhart and the start of term. 

> If it's called Wolfsbane, then it likely contains that herb,
> which is damaging to werewolves in its freshly grown form, 
> according to folklore.

I haven't been able to figure out whether that is the same folklore 
that claims that wearing a wolfbane flower will cause a person to
turn into a werewolf. I don't know whether the two plants named 
wolfbane are the same plant or different plants with the same name -- 
IIRC the flowers that turn a person into a werewolf are large and 
usually yellow but sometimes white (or is it just that they look 
white in the moonlight?).

Speaking of turning into a werewolf -- we have been told that in the 
JKR world it is transmitted by bite (like rabies). Is lycanthropy 
contagious from the bite of a werewolf while in human form?

Which reminds me: it seems like the fanfic world believes that a 
werewolf is burnt by the touch of silver even when in human form, and 
some have Snape deliberately serving the Potion in a silver cup, from 
spite. I can't remembering finding ANYTHING about werewolves and 
silver in canon.  





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  8 04:39:26 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:39:26 -0000
Subject: Chapter 29 Summary: The Dream
In-Reply-To: <95sbho+cnq0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95t7tu+4ba9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11872

QUESTIONS/ISSUES
"1. You are Hermione. Harry and/or Ron has just speculated that 
someone apparated/disapparated on the Hogwarts grounds . . . yet 
again. What do you do?"

--Hermione is much more patient than I would be! Honestly doesn't 
ANYONE else read "Hogwarts: A History"????? (very loud sigh)
 

"5. Moody suggests Hermione consider becoming an Auror; he had 
previously said the same thing to Harry. Considering Moody's
physical and mental scars, would you want Harry and/or Hermione to 
make that career choice?"

--I agree with whoever said this was a bit of an insult, though 
neither Harry or Hermione realise it at the time. Personally Moody 
(real or fake) isn't a good recruitter (sp?). I really don't think 
that all Auror's are in that bad of shape. It seems far more likely 
to me that Moody's condition is simply the result of his being to 
paranoid to be treated...


6. What kind of teacher is excited when a student starts rolling on 
the floor screaming in pain, and frustrated when the student insists 
on going for medical help?

--I know that I mentioned this in my character summary of Trelawny 
but it can bear repeating. We know that Trelawny had no idea that she 
made the prediction in PoA. As this was her second "real" prediction, 
I think it is safe to assume that basically she had no idea that she 
was making the first one either. 

But the woman truly believes in her ability despite the overall 
cynicism toward her field. She is VERY full of herself. The incident 
with Harry is just icing on the proverbial cake. She couldn't care 
less about whether Harry is ok, physically or mentally, she simply 
wants to find out what is happening to him.

What is perhaps worse is that she doesn't seem to believe that anyone 
(especially Harry, who in her mind has nothing close to an inner eye) 
could be having real visions, prophetic dreams,  etc. If something IS 
happening she is sure that she's the cause of it.  

Her character is also very ironic in that she's not aware all the 
real divination that takes place. Jo herself doesn't take much stock 
in divination- probably the reason Trelawny is made out to be so 
batty.

"7. Sirius had previously told Harry to seek out Professor Dumbledore 
the next time his scar hurt, and Harry actually does it. How big of a 
step forward is this for a kid who has previously avoided confiding 
in anyone or asking for help?"

--Harry is making progress in the light of trusting adults more than 
in the past. However if you look at Harry's situation I think it's 
not a big suprise that he finally goes to Dumbledore. After all 
someone's obviously out to get him with the whole Tournament setup, 
and Crouch Sr. has been seen recently babbling about very strange 
things, and then disappearing. Sirius is trusted by Harry (more so 
than Dumbly?) and so Harry is listening to him, and taking his 
advice, but in the situation it was the most obvious thing to do...

Scott







From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu Feb  8 04:52:40 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:52:40 -0000
Subject: Sirius' family/Severus
In-Reply-To: <95qqj9+qfpl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95t8mo+teg1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11873

> I agree with the assumption that both Sirius and Severus are pure-
bloods. Whether or not there is a direct blood relationship between 
them remains to be seen. (Second cousins twice removed?  Fraternal 
twins separated at birth??  How they'd both hate that idea!!) 

 However, now that we have witnessed their great antipathy to each 
other in both PoA and GoF, I would not be at all surprised if Rowling 
has set us up to witness an intriguing development of their 
relationship.  Here are 2 people who can barely stand to be in the 
same room with each other without going for each other's throat; yet 
now they are working to defeat the same enemy.  Perhaps at some point 
in the story one man will be in desperate need of help that only the 
other man can provide, which will give us lots of fodder for 
character assessment.




From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Feb  8 05:20:40 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:20:40 -0500
Subject: Yawn....Harry again... :--)
Message-ID: <200102080527.f185RGC06701@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 11874

Oh boy, I knew I should have left well enough alone and kept my mouth 
shut...but here we go again. ;)

I (probably unwisely, only because I don't think I have the time or energy 
required to defend it) wrote:
> Well...as an unnamed crewmate mentioned recently, the only reason she
>could stand PoU Harry was that he had so many Ron-like qualities in him.

To which there were a bunch of responses I won't quote but which basically 
said "you're crazy" <g>.
My reaction upon hearing this statement at first had more to do with my sense 
of canon-Ron and a vague impression that it fit my feelings.  After thinking 
about it more, I think it has a lot to do with PoU Harry's utter focus on 
Hermione, which I see as a distinctly Ron trait.  And I also think that PoU 
Harry enjoys public displays far more than canon-Harry would ever do, but that 
this is something else I could see in Ron.

Of course, we can argue until the cows come home (and have) about different 
interpretations of characters and different readings of canon, and much of 
this is based on that.  If we disagree on the readings of the original 
characters, it stands to reason we would disagree on the extrapolated 
personalities of the characters as they age.

I invite anyone who can be more coherent about this perspective to come forth, 
because I am way overworked and overtired at the moment.

Penny wrote:
>Are you thinking that PoU Harry has characteristics that would apply to an
>adult fanfic Ron?

Actually that's a really good observation, Penny.  I think this is a big part 
of it.  I am rather taken with the scenario that Harry settles down and does 
something besides saving the world once Voldemort is taken care of, while Ron 
has his chance to shine by doing something Important and Useful like fighting 
evil.  (Have I mentioned "The Best Man" series recently? <g>  Incidentally, I 
just heard Mrs. Weasley is working on "The Best Man 3" right now.I could 
sing!)

Penny again:
>IMO, PoU is not just well-written from a technical perspective.  It's
>also *believable* -- that's what has made it one of the most followed
>and beloved HP fanfics.

I am not knocking PoU.  I do hope you realize that comparing PoU Harry to Ron 
is a compliment coming from an R/H-er.  (Hey, at least it's better than "You 
killed Ron!  You bad, evil person!" <g>)

carole wrote of Harry:
>If you don't see the depth of his soul...I'm not sure what book you are
>reading.

I never said that Harry didn't have depth of soul; I merely pointed out that I 
think Ron does too.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

carole again:
>Ok I missed something between arguing for a Ron personality and making a
>leap to therapy needing Harry.  You seem to be implying that if Ron has a
>personality, then Harry would inevitably end up as a basket case? And how
>would a fanfic that implys this support the argument that Ron has depth and
>personality? I missed the in between there...Does one have to be bad to make
>the other good?  Can we like both Ron and Harry?

Of course, which is what I have been trying to say.  See above.  And about the 
basket-case thing: no, one does not imply the other.  I was trying to explain 
my reasons for finding Ron more interesting than Harry.

Penny again:
>Like Carole pointed out, you won't get the perspective of any other
>characters from canon.

Well, of course I know that.  What I meant was I am interesting in thinking 
about the other characters' perspectives.  We already have Harry's; I really 
enjoy trying to figure out what's going on the other characters' minds.

Penny again:
>I thought you just said yesterday that Harry wasn't all that
>boring or you wouldn't be trudging through all these emails every day.
>I must admit to a bit of confusion.  I think you're saying that he's
>boring as a potential romantic partner but not so boring as a character
>that you can't stand to read about him????  Can you clarify?  I confess
>to being a bit confused about the whole "Harry is boring" line.

Just what I've already said: I love Harry.  Of course I love Harry or I 
wouldn't be drafting this post instead of sleeping like I should be.  But I am 
also interested in the other characters, and at the moment, I am more 
interested in them.  I identify with Hermione and Ron much more than I do with 
Harry, and I find them more interesting.  I think I have mentioned before that 
I am one of those R/H-ers who is mildly H/G, because to be honest I don't 
really care who Harry ends up with.  Saying "I'm starting to find Harry kinda 
boring" was my glib way of saying all that. (Although, if I had known I would 
have to write so much more about it, I probably would have kept my mouth shut.
 Actually...I'm me, so I probably wouldn't have. <g>)

Cassie wrote:
>I don't think anyone said or implied that. I hope not. The outpouring
>of support for Harry and the statements that we don't find him
>boring, but instead very loveable, were not meant to denigrate Ron by
>extension.

Just like my (or any R/H-er's, for that matter) support or defense of Ron 
doesn't mean denigration of Harry.  (My flippant "boring" comment 
notwithstanding, but I've already explained that, so let's not go there again. 
;)


Hoping this cleared the fog a bit
(and hoping the fog doesn't turn out to be the smoke from the gunfire of the 
next Shipping War! <g>)

Captain Kathy
Of the Good Ship R/H
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Feb  8 06:14:46 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:14:46 -0800
Subject: Dating at Hogwarts
Message-ID: <3A823954.98EB078A@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11875

Because of the Shipping War (an Anne Proulx sequel?) there was much talk
about Hogwarts students dating, and someone asked where do Hogwarts
students go on dates? I can't find the post in which that question was
asked so as to give proper credit.

Taking 'dating' literally (making an appointment in advance), all we've
seen is the Yule Ball and some students making dates to accompany each
other on Hogsmeade outings, but there may be other dating opportunities
that we haven't seen: students making dates to sit together at the
Quidditch matches, for example. Maybe guest lecturers come by (authors
on a book tour, for example, if the book could be considered somehow
educational) and put on slide shows in the Great Hall done up as an
auditorium, and students make dates to sit together at the lecture.

Maybe there are dances less fancy than the (once a century?) Yule Ball
-- In HARRY POTTER AND THE DOOMSPELL POTION (a fanfic), there were
dances at the Three Broomsticks from time to time.  On campus, maybe
each House is responsible to throw one party a year for the whole school
and Harry just doesn't go to those parties. At first I assumed there
would be committees for Decorations, Refreshments, Music, and Clean-Up.
but then realised that the House Elves would do Refreshments and
Clean-Up.

I wonder what the Music committee would do about music (the Three
Broomsticks booked a  live band). Is there such a thing as recorded
music in the wizarding world? Do they save up their pennies, I mean
Knuds, to hire a live band? Or allow an amateur band of students to
practise on their guests?

Hogwarts Castle is big enough that those parties could be in some big
room other than the Great Hall.  And I feel sure that there are also
plenty of middle-sized rooms that students could reserve to throw a
more-or-less private party in -- some of the kinds of less-unofficial
private parties I remember from college were 1) very polite teas, with
cheese and crackers, sherry, coffee and tea, with a beloved professor or
visiting parent as Guest of Honor, 2) birthday parties, some with cake
and ice cream and others with beer and rum punch, 3) costume parties.
None of those were used for dating in the picky sense above: if a girl
and her boyfriend were invited to the same party, they could carry on
together while there, but an invited person couldn't bring an uninvited
person as a date.

I think the Hogwarts students would do a lot of what I just mentioned:
going to a tea party or a public lecture or a Quidditch game or a club
meeting or the library or just their House common room, and there
looking around for a friend to sit next to, and thus romance could bloom
without the rituals of dating. Percy and his Penelope were sneaking into
deserted classrooms for a little light making out, and if they had been
going on official dates, Fred and George would have known about it.
Maybe their earlier 'dates' consist of holding hands at prefects'
meetings.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Thu Feb  8 07:25:31 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (mohuebner0 at lycos.de)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:25:31 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <3A81F460.68BE2DB8@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <95thlb+obo8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11876

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:

> First, the confessional part of the email. Sirius is sexy, Draco is
> intriguing and Harry is just the star of the universe.
> But like JKR herself, I want to have Professor Remus Lupin teach my
> child (well, most of the month, at least)

I'll have to agree here. I don't have children myself, but if I did,
I would want Lupin to teach them. And of course I would have loved
having a teacher like him when I went to school. The way he handled
Neville's fear in the lesson with the Boggart just floored me. I
never suspected him to be one of the bad guys, it just didn't come
to my mind.

> sarvalsha at d... wrote:
> 
> > QUESTIONS/ISSUES
> > 2. Snape provides Lupin with Wolfsbane potion. Lupin admits to not
> > being good at potions. How did he obtain the potion before he 
came to
> > Hogswarts? Or did he?

I think he didn't. And he tells Harry that Snape is one of the few
potion brewers who is able to make this particularly complicated
potion. So it was a chance for him to try it and to feel safe for
the first time in his werewolf live during his transformations. At
least that's how it looked to me.

> > 3. If Snape hates Sirius more, why does Snape concentrate on Lupin
> > first in the Shrieking Shack?

> Heidi: Maybe because Lupin has a wand? Good question!

I think you are right here. Snape had been watching the scene for
a while before he pulled off the invisibility cloak, so he must have
seen that Sirius was no immediate threat to him. He didn't have a
wand, and I think he must have looked so weak that Snape thought it
would be better to tie Lupin up first because he would have helped
Sirius.


> > 4. Hagrid created a photo album of Harry's parents by requesting
> > pictures from James and Lily's friends. Lupin would have been the
> > closest one left. Are there photos of Lupin in the album and if
>>  so, why didn't Harry recognize him?

> Heidi: Sirius was barely recognizable - remus also has probably 
changed a lot
> in the previous 15-25 years. 

We know that Remus looks older than he really is, so you may be
right here. Although live as a werewolf might not be as hard as life
as a prisoner in Azkaban, but it will leave its traces, too.

> Heidi: Or maybe Remus was the Colin Creevy of the group, always 
taking
> pictures, never apeparing in them...

Good idea. Someone must have taken the photos, and if James, Lily
and Sirius are pictured but not Remus, it would be legitimate to
assume that he was often the one who took them.

Monika







From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Thu Feb  8 10:46:46 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:46:46 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin
Message-ID: <01c091bc$6f1b1960$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11877

>In his very first class, he sets up Neville Longbottom for a prominent
>role and success in beating the boggart, ignoring both Snape's and
>Neville's own disbelief in his ability.

I think it wasn't one of his best ideas. He obviously knows Snape well
enough to realize that Neville will be made *really* sorry for that dress
and hat.

>2. Snape provides Lupin with Wolfsbane potion. Lupin admits to not
>being good at potions. How did he obtain the potion before he came to
>Hogswarts? Or did he?

I guess he didn't. I assume that he couldn't make it himself, hadn't money
to buy it and didn't know any friendly Potion master who would do it for him
for free...
Anyway, his "post-full-moon-sickness" symptoms were quite similar in both
scenes they are mentioned - I mean he looked tired. But I guess it doesn't
mean much.

>Rita wrote:
>some people seem to think that
>SNAPE invented it between the time that Lupin agreed to replace
>Lockhart and the start of term.

I love the idea! I love it! But I'm afraid it's a rather far-fetched
interpretation of what Remus said about the potion. And I don't believe for
a second that Snape could *volunteer* to invent (or improve) the Potion, no
matter how much he loves his subject. Anyway, if Dumbledore did make Snape
do it, it would at least explain why the Potion tasted so bad ;-)

>3. If Snape hates Sirius more, why does Snape concentrate on Lupin
>first in the Shrieking Shack?

Well, that was full moon that night, Remus was a werewolf, and he didn't
take his Potion. I don't remember whether there were any windows in the
room, but I don't think it mattered much for Snape, anyway.

>4. Hagrid created a photo album of Harry's parents by requesting
>pictures from James and Lily's friends. Lupin would have been the
>closest one left. Are there photos of Lupin in the album and if so,
>why didn't Harry recognize him?

It's odd, but Harry doesn't seem to pay any attention to anybody's pictures
but his parents'. He saw Black's picture only when he was looking for it. I
don't quite get it. Surely his parents' friends are worth a look?

Monika Z.
(The Snape fan)




From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Thu Feb  8 11:29:45 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (mohuebner0 at lycos.de)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:29:45 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <01c091bc$6f1b1960$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <95tvv9+l5fb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11878

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Zaboklicka" 
<monika.zaboklicka at c...> wrote:


> I think it wasn't one of his best ideas. He obviously knows Snape 
well
> enough to realize that Neville will be made *really* sorry for that 
dress
> and hat.

I think he did it *because* he knew Snape so well. It was a challenge
for him to disprove Snape and it also proved his own teaching skills.
>From the psychological POV, it was still the best thing he could do.
I am sure Neville gained some self-regard when he realized that he
was able to cast the spell and make everyone laugh about his Boggart.

> Well, that was full moon that night, Remus was a werewolf, and he 
didn't
> take his Potion. I don't remember whether there were any windows in 
the
> room, but I don't think it mattered much for Snape, anyway.

Hmm, I hadn't thought about this possibility, but I admit that you
have a point here. Snape must have known that Lupin would soon
transform, and of course he didn't want to take that risk. As I said
in my other post, it must have been obvious to him that Sirius wasn't
an immediate threat, but meeting with a werewolf when it is full moon
certainly isn't a very appealing perspective.

Monika H.






From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb  8 13:03:08 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:03:08 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin
References: <95thlb+obo8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A82990B.7A544890@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11879

mohuebner0 at lycos.de wrote:

> I'll have to agree here. I don't have children myself, but if I did, I
> would want Lupin to teach them.

Well, to play Devil's Advocate, if you were a parent, and were in the
wizarding world, no matter how much you liked Lupin and were willing to
hang with him at parties and have him over for supper, you'd probably be
about as likely to accept him teaching your child as you'd be as a
Muggle to accept a teacher with rabies.

Rabies is a better parallel than AIDS. The fear of rabies, in most
people, strikes the primal level that fear of werewolves seems to strike
the wizarding world. For most of history, if you're bitten or scratched,
you're dead, very, very unpleasantly. The shots now prevent death--IF
you start them soon enough--but they are very painful. I was bitten by a
potentially rabid kitten as a child, and while the animal was not
infected, I almost had to get the first shot as a preventive; I'll never
forget the worry and fear in my parents' eyes. As a wizarding parent,
I'll allow that perhaps the existence of the potion might make
werewolves more integratable into society, but *not* teaching children!
I would not want my children subjected to even the minor risk of
exposure to such a disease.

Lycanthropy, in JKR's world, is an incurable, painful, dangerous,
socially stigmatizing, potentially life-threatening disease, certainly
life-potential-limiting thing. The potion that allows a werewolf mental
control during his wolf time is a new thing and thus not well-known,
plus it's hard to make/get, and otherwise the disease is ineradicable. I
like Lupin's character myself, he's one of my favorites, but I don't
think I'd be comfortable with him teaching my kids. I'd be forever
calling the school asking if he remembered his potion, asking what the
day's activities were and was contact required (can you get lycanthropy
from fluid transfer during the human phase?), etc.

Just an alternate view,

Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb  8 13:50:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:50:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Wolfbane Potion and) Character Summary: Remus  J. Lupin
References: <95t7dl+fo38@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A82A413.CD0F7AEC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11880

Rita Winston wrote:

> There has been much speculation about WHEN the Wolfbane Potion was
> invented -- any time from when Remus left school to the time that he
> started teaching at Hogwarts -- some people seem to think that SNAPE
> invented it between the time that Lupin agreed to replace Lockhart and
> the start of term.

I scanned through PoA in one of my recent, um, enforced stays in the
Throne Room (something's going around, we've all got it). Lupin says the
potion was recently discovered, and he says that Snape has kindly
concocted it for him, but "concocted" can just mean "made," and might be
a JKR selection to sound more arcane. I didn't get any clear sense that
Snape invented it, and Lupin is fair-minded enough to have mentioned
this, when he's discussing it with Harry in his office.

> I haven't been able to figure out whether that is the same folklore
> that claims that wearing a wolfbane flower will cause a person to turn
> into a werewolf. I don't know whether the two plants named wolfbane
> are the same plant or different plants with the same name -- IIRC the
> flowers that turn a person into a werewolf are large and usually
> yellow but sometimes white (or is it just that they look white in the
> moonlight?).

Folklore will vary, not only from country to country but from village to
village. It's not unusual for the item or talisman or token that
prevents a condition, to be a cause of it someplace else. The only
continuous thread is the connection between the item and the
condition--*how* they are connected often varies.

> Speaking of turning into a werewolf -- we have been told that in the
> JKR world it is transmitted by bite (like rabies). Is lycanthropy
> contagious from the bite of a werewolf while in human form?

Okay, I've done some thinking about this, because Sirius, in dog form,
is bitten by Lupin during their fight in the moonlight, but to our
knowledge has not become a werewolf. I will borrow a thought from "Three
Hearts and Three Lions" by somebody or other I cannot recall, a fantasy
novel involving the inevitable "man from our world transported to world
of magic" theme. Holger is our man's name, and in one situation must
determine for a panic-stricken mob which of their lord's family is the
werewolf that has been terrorizing the village. Holger rules out the
son, because the son has the flu or something, the reasoning being that
canines cannot have the flu, so if the son had transformed, the flu
germs would have been eradicated, since they do not survive in a canine
host, and when he became human again he would no longer be sick. Looking
at Sirius' bite in this light, I imagine that the magical virus or
whatever that causes lycanthropy must have a human as its host, and that
Sirius cannot be infected if he's bitten in dog form, since the
infecting agent cannot infect a dog. [The helpfulness of this particular
novel ends here, as lycanthropy is an inherited tendency in that world,
rather than a disease.]

Back to JKR's world. As for whether you can get lycanthropy from a
contact with the human phase--the infecting agent only makes its victim
want to attack humans while the host is in wolf form; this suggests to
me that it is primarily contagious from the wolf form. If the host was
able to infect others as a human, the infecting agent, wanting to be
spread, would make the host aggressive all the time, wouldn't it?
However, the agent clearly remains in the host's system at all times,
whatever form he or she may take, so I still wouldn't want to drink from
Lupin's cup or do any deep kissing (or have my kids in his class,
sorry).

> Which reminds me: it seems like the fanfic world believes that a
> werewolf is burnt by the touch of silver even when in human form, and
> some have Snape deliberately serving the Potion in a silver cup, from
> spite. I can't remembering finding ANYTHING about werewolves and
> silver in canon.

True; I looked, and the goblet that Snape brings is just a goblet. The
material is unspecified, although the potion within is described as
smoking. No other references to silver that I could find. I'd bet it
stands, though; JKR seems to have gone with the straight Hollywood
werewolf version.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb  8 14:07:13 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:07:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 29 Summary: The Dream
References: <95sbho+cnq0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A82A810.8BC28DD8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11881

sarvalsha at dellnet.com wrote:

> 1. You are Hermione. Harry and/or Ron has just speculated that someone
> apparated/disapparated on the Hogwarts grounds . . . yet again. What
> do you do?

Well, she's old enough for the time of the month to make a difference.
If I were Hermione, a response could vary from anything to a simple
telling them again why not, to marching them down to the library and
finding the relevant passage in "Hogwarts, A History" and *making* them
read it, to going and getting the volume and hitting them on the head
with it.

> 2. Harry jokes that the only way Snape could have gotten to the
> forbidden forest before Harry and Professor Dumbledore was to turn
> himself into a bat or something. Is Snape a bat (animagus, vampire,
> etc.)?

No. I think the "bat" imagery that has been cast around Snape is simply
to draw on a cultural response, to help with characterization. Bats
aren't the icky things that rats are, but they *are* outside the Normal
Order--they're associated with the night, with vampires (one of the
"romantic" type of monster in modern culture), etc. But I don't think
there's any evidence that Snape is a vampire or an animagus. The latter
is unlikely, I think, because it takes years of study of a non-potions
kind, and Snape's true (and only?) love is really the crafting of
potions. Now, a *potion* to turn him into something periodically....

> 3. The twins compare Ron to Percy and say he will be made a prefect if
> he continues meddling. Why does this make Ron so angry?

I can't put my finger on it, although I relate to it on a personal
level. But I think it's that Ron identifies with the twins and their
style, much more than Percy and his. This declaration of the twins is
like a refutation of Ron. I say this because when I was a child, the
very, very best way for my brother to send me into a reasonless,
towering, ineffectual rage was to say I was more like Dad than Mom. Mom
was the wonderful parent, Dad was the prickly, unpredictable one. We all
liked Mom better as kids (my father was a great parent of an adult
child, but not as good with small children), so saying I was like Dad
meant he didn't like me as much, that other people wouldn't. So Ron's
reaction made perfect intuitive sense to me.

> 4. Ron thinks the twins capable of law-breaking to gain gold for their
> joke shop and Percy capable of turning the twins in. Is Ron just a bad
> judge of character or are either of these two things likely to happen?

I don't think the twins would break any *serious* laws, but their
opinion of serious might differ from others' views. And I don't think
Percy would hesitate to turn them in, *if* he thought it was for their
own good; he might hesitate if the circumstances were such that his
parents would be hurt by it.

> 5. Moody suggests Hermione consider becoming an Auror; he had
> previously said the same thing to Harry. Considering Moody'sphysical
> and mental scars, would you want Harry and/or Hermione to make that
> career choice?

We don't know enough about it. I still think Moody has the scars because
he has chosen to. He's not the type to trust anyone, even those he knows
intimately, and medical magic makes one very vulnerable. I'm betting he
cured himself, with all those injuries, with the basic "stop-bleeding,
end shock" type spell most wizards must know, and then never went to
anyone to get further treatment. So we don't even know if all Aurors
look like that. So we can't really answer the question yet.

> 6. What kind of teacher is excited when a student starts rolling on
> the floor screaming in pain, and frustrated when the student insists
> on going for medical help?

One who sees students (or anyone) as a means of teaching and/or an end
to a purpose, rather than as individuals with feelings.

> 7. Sirius had previously told Harry to seek out Professor Dumbledore
> the next time his scar hurt, and Harry actually does it. How big of a
> step forward is this for a kid who has previously avoided confiding in
> anyone or asking for help?

Massive. And I still think Lupin's friendship played a big role in
opening Harry up to the possibilities of trusting adults. And now
trusting Moody has shown him the downside. I can't wait to see how he
will be in book 5, whether the whole Moody thing will shut him up again,
or if he is resilient enough to overcome it and still trust.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gmaddox at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 15:01:37 2001
From: gmaddox at hotmail.com (gmaddox at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:01:37 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin - What might he know?
In-Reply-To: <95spn3+6j72@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95ucch+d1k5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11882

Hi-
     I'm fairly new to the list, and this is my first post.  I've 
realized that my favorite character so far has been Professor Lupin.  
There's one scene that I've been looking for any posts about, and so 
far I haven't been able to find any.  It's in PoA Chapter 12.  After 
the first time Harry hears his dad, Lupin says, "you heard James?" 
and he says it "in a strange voice."  I thought mostly about this in 
light of the wand order problem (which has supposedly been fixed) and 
the rumors that Lupin would make a big revelation.  He almost seems 
surprised that Harry heard his dad, and I thought, maybe he knew 
something about the night Harry's parents died.  Maybe he was there? 
I guess it could just be Lupin's discomfort with talking about James 
and Lily with Harry.  I'd be curious to know what other people might 
think.

Glenn





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Feb  8 15:22:26 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 8 Feb 2001 07:22:26 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin - What might he know?
Message-ID: <20010208152226.21142.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11883

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010208/258b516f/attachment.ksh>

From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Feb  8 15:29:13 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:29:13 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Value of Literary Criticism
Message-ID: <95ue09+mpbb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11884

(aka Harry Potter For Grown High Schoolers)

http://www.star-
telegram.com/news/doc/1047/1:AOLNEWS5/1:AOLNEWS50207101.html
It's an article about the inclusion of SS in the Texas University 
Interscholastic League, among their 2001 reading selections for high 
school literary criticism competition.

"I thought, `Harry Potter is getting a lot of attention, it has the 
potential to be a classic, so for once, why don't we choose something 
not written by a dead person?' " said Fred Tarpley, a professor of 
literature at Texas A&M-Commerce who is the contest director.

<SNIP>
Literary criticism is not mandatory for high-school students. Like 
band or volleyball, it is an extracurricular activity, and, as in 
better-known UIL contests, a student can win a state title. But in 
literary criticism competition, students take tests and write essays 
analyzing the work they have read.

And two divergent persepctives:
A sampling of professors at the University of Texas, Texas A&M 
University and Rice University considered the books 
beneath "challenging" literature. They doubted that they would ever 
show up in a college class.

Lisa Salyer, an English teacher at Carroll High School in Southlake, 
worried that the UIL had lowered the competition's standards.

"But then I thought, `Why not?' " Salyer said. "It's not old-school. 
It's never going to be a high school classic. But I don't have a 
problem with it. For one thing, you can analyze a book, even a 
simplistic book, to the highest level of cognition. 






From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 15:44:38 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael_pou at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:44:38 -0000
Subject: James Potter's house
Message-ID: <95uet6+va41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11885

Hi,

I'm sorry to barge in with this question, but i need it for a fic i'm 
writing.

I saw in the Harry Potter Lexicon (Hi Steve! My steadfast source of 
information) that James Potter is sorted as a Gryffindor Alumni. Is 
this based on the books/JKR chat, or is this just a theory? Because 
this makes a messy puddle of a theory i've been building in my fic.

spoiler - readers of KDIL - do not read any further - 

This theory states that Lupin, as a werewolf, had to be a Slytherin. 
Sirius was also a Slytherin (partly based on Hagrid's statement in 
PS) and the rest of the gang was with them in the house.
I further support that theory in assuming that James and Lily were 
Head Boy and Girl together, and it hardly seems fair to the other 
houses that both would be of the same house. Of course, they could 
have held the position sequentially, or have simply made the other 
houses sulk. :)

Any comments?

thanks, yael




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 15:59:21 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:59:21 
Subject: FF: What *are* fan works?  (was:  Magic Carpets)
Message-ID: <F17diYeVWUgY8HUOmtP0000cafc@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11886

Hi, Steve and all!

The Lexicon designer wrote about his history of magitransport:

>Naw. That was a parody, not fanfic. <snip>
>That wasn't fanfic. And it IS posted, on the Lexicon, part of the
>Hogwarts Journal, which is also where all these wonderful filk songs
>are being published, along with some other excellent parodies. And
>the Lexicon gets more than fifty hits per HOUR in the afternoons, so
>hah. Read my lips. NOT FANFIC.

Aha!  Thou doth protesteth too much...

The Lexicon is a wonderful resource, Steve.  I have it bookmarked.  You've 
done a splendid job on it.

But your Lexicon contains material that is just as much fanwork as so-called 
"fanfiction".

There are many, many HP parodies on ff.net.  Just as there are many filks 
much like Caius' work on ff.net.  (I'd love for Caius to score any HP 
Broadway musical, BTW.)  Parodies and filks might not be considered 
fanfiction per se, but they are still fan works and appropriately 
categorized under fan fiction.

Steve then wrote:
>So what's this about reviews?

If you visited ff.net's home page, you'd find out.  Here's a link:

http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-listfiles&categoryID=224

Beware!  Click on the above link at your own risk.

Corrupting the fandom with a friendly smile,

Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery

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From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Feb  8 16:20:31 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:20:31 -0000
Subject: FF: What *are* fan works?  (was:  Magic Carpets)
In-Reply-To: <F17diYeVWUgY8HUOmtP0000cafc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95uh0f+moqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11887


> The Lexicon is a wonderful resource, Steve.  I have it bookmarked.  
You've 
> done a splendid job on it.
> 
> But your Lexicon contains material that is just as much fanwork as 
so-called 

That is true in the case of the parodies on the Journal page and some 
of the theories in the mysteries section which are clearly labeled as 
that. Otherwise, there shouldn't be anything in the Lexicon that 
isn't verified. The question about which house James is in, for 
example...if it says Gryffindor in the Lexicon, she should be able to 
assume that that isn't just because it seemed right to me or that 
most of us here on this list think so. If it isn't mentioned in one 
of the books or if JKR hasn't said it herself in a chat, it is not 
supposed to be in the Lexicon. 

I say "supposed" to be because it's so darn hard to keep some of 
those kinds of assumptions out of things. I found that with the 
question about the Lestranges a week or two ago. I had let my 
assumption sneak in while I was typing up that page. That's why I 
don't read fanfic, not because there's anything wrong with it--I do 
write my theories and even the occasional parody, as you now know--
but because the Lexicon is supposed to only give the actual, 
verifiable facts and some details from a story just might turn into 
some false assumption on my part. I really try to put in only what's 
actually given by JKR, nothing else. That's why, when you look at the 
calendar of Chamber of Secrets that's on there, some major events 
don't appear. That's because I couldn't narrow down what day exactly 
they happened. 

Now every so often I catch an error in the Lexicon, usually just a 
spelling error. But who knows when the next big error will crop up, 
along the lines of the Lestranges question? I am always on the 
lookout for them and I would be grateful to anyone who thinks they 
spot one if they would just drop me a quick email. I'll double check 
my sources and do any fixing that's necessary.

Thanks
Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 17:58:05 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:58:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting:Draco
Message-ID: <F48EbL5cBhXwqgVquRu000048ee@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11888

I don't know if anyone else here knows this, but a friend of mine told me 
today that Tom Felton is playing draco malfoy.  When she first said that, 
she told me he had played Jodi Foster's son in 'Anna and the King'. At 
first, I figured it would be ok, and then I saw one of the pictures he is in 
from the movie.  He has very strawberry-blondish hair, more red than blonde 
to me, and VERY blue eyes.  All I have to say is that I really do hope that 
they give him gray contacts, bc i could not take Draco with blue eyes(unless 
of course I am completely daft and he has blue eys and it is his dad with 
gray eyes)  This was probably the only casting i was not pleased with, as I 
have been so incredibly thrilled with everything else I have read about the 
movie thus far (ESP the screenwriter interview....wow)  Anyways, if I am 
wrong about his playing in the movie, if someone could please tell me.

Stephanie
Who finally caught up with messages that were coming out the wazoo from this 
group.  I loved every oneof them though! <vbg>  Also, I have made a backyard 
quidditch kit for my younger siblings and instructions.  I am going to try 
and set up a web-cam at our next "Event" if anyone wants to see some video 
feed!!


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From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 17:58:14 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:58:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting:Draco
Message-ID: <F109WhRT7cW2zrmqRap000049d5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11889

I don't know if anyone else here knows this, but a friend of mine told me 
today that Tom Felton is playing draco malfoy.  When she first said that, 
she told me he had played Jodi Foster's son in 'Anna and the King'. At 
first, I figured it would be ok, and then I saw one of the pictures he is in 
from the movie.  He has very strawberry-blondish hair, more red than blonde 
to me, and VERY blue eyes.  All I have to say is that I really do hope that 
they give him gray contacts, bc i could not take Draco with blue eyes(unless 
of course I am completely daft and he has blue eys and it is his dad with 
gray eyes)  This was probably the only casting i was not pleased with, as I 
have been so incredibly thrilled with everything else I have read about the 
movie thus far (ESP the screenwriter interview....wow)  Anyways, if I am 
wrong about his playing in the movie, if someone could please tell me.

Stephanie
Who finally caught up with messages that were coming out the wazoo from this 
group.  I loved every oneof them though! <vbg>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb  8 18:09:58 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:09:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting:Draco
References: <F109WhRT7cW2zrmqRap000049d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A82E0F6.D5BBCA2B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11890

Stephanie Malfoy wrote:

> I don't know if anyone else here knows this, but a friend of mine told
> me today that Tom Felton is playing draco malfoy.  When she first said
> that, she told me he had played Jodi Foster's son in 'Anna and the
> King'. At first, I figured it would be ok, and then I saw one of the
> pictures he is in
> from the movie.  He has very strawberry-blondish hair, more red than
> blonde to me, and VERY blue eyes.  All I have to say is that I really
> do hope that they give him gray contacts, bc i could not take Draco
> with blue eyes(unless
> of course I am completely daft and he has blue eys and it is his dad
> with gray eyes)

Okay, I'm totally spacing on this. All the descriptions of Draco I can
recall say he has "pale" eyes, but does it ever specifically say grey?
Pale can be blue.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 18:13:12 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:13:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Fun
Message-ID: <F58Cx2TvfzXX4SKJ0Xg0000a886@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11891

I posted this as an extra on my last post, but I assumed that it was funny 
and I have been way way down on my posting level, so a fun post was 
ok...anyways...here we go...

I made a backyard quidditch kit for my younger siblings complete with 
instructions.  I am going to try and set up a web-cam at our next "Event" if 
anyone wants to see some video feed!!  Also, the game has become much less 
dangerous and it is so much fun.  Harry Potter at its best!  But anyways, 
SEVERAL of the kids in my neighborhood heard of the game through a younger 
sister and they all started reading the books, and I have had a run on my 
house requesting to borrow my trivia game, books, cds/tapes, etc etc etc.  
It is wonderful.  On a touching note, a little boy(i think he is 9) came and 
took the first book from me, and his mother called me and thanked me so much 
for getting him interested in reading.  Apparently he had been struggling 
with reading and his enthusiasm helped him get through it and she has 
recieved notes from a teacher telling her about his improvement.  But 
anyways, I just thought some fun harry Potter stuff would do everyone some 
good <vbg>

Stephanie
Harry potter for all!





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From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Feb  8 18:18:13 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 13:18:13 -0500
Subject: More Casting News - Ginny Weasley etc (Was Casting:Draco)
In-Reply-To: <3A82E0F6.D5BBCA2B@texas.net>
References: <F109WhRT7cW2zrmqRap000049d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010208131649.05ef12b0@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11892

Hi all -

I posted some new casting news today:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_04_archive.html#2294504

New stuff includes Ginny Weasley and some extras as well as confirming 
Neville Longbottom and Dean Thomas.




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Feb  8 18:23:37 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:23:37 -0000
Subject: Casting:Draco
In-Reply-To: <3A82E0F6.D5BBCA2B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <95uo79+vs71@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11893

 
*Coughs quietly* As far as physical descriptions of Draco from canon 
go, he is "pale and pointed," in SS. In PoA he is described as 
having "silver-blond hair." And in GoF mention is made of his 
resemblance to his father and the fact that they have identical "cold 
grey eyes." I also tend to assume that he's small and slight like 
Harry since he's a Seeker as well, but that's an assumption. And a 
blue-eyed strawberry blond Draco also strikes me as Wrong. <g>

Cassie



> Stephanie Malfoy wrote:
> 
> > I don't know if anyone else here knows this, but a friend of mine 
told
> > me today that Tom Felton is playing draco malfoy.  When she first 
said
> > that, she told me he had played Jodi Foster's son in 'Anna and the
> > King'. At first, I figured it would be ok, and then I saw one of 
the
> > pictures he is in
> > from the movie.  He has very strawberry-blondish hair, more red 
than
> > blonde to me, and VERY blue eyes.  All I have to say is that I 
really
> > do hope that they give him gray contacts, bc i could not take 
Draco
> > with blue eyes(unless
> > of course I am completely daft and he has blue eys and it is his 
dad
> > with gray eyes)
> 
> Okay, I'm totally spacing on this. All the descriptions of Draco I 
can
> recall say he has "pale" eyes, but does it ever specifically say 
grey?
> Pale can be blue.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Feb  8 18:25:54 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:25:54 -0000
Subject: Dating at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <3A823954.98EB078A@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <95uobi+hf9l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11894

I think there are opportunities for dating at Hogwarts. For example, 
we really don't know what the students do on non-Hogsmeade weekends. 
For all we know, groups of friends hang out in empty classrooms, on 
the grounds or even the Great Hall between meals. 

As for sponsored activities, there was always some club or the other 
that held a Movie night or a TV night to raise money. I remember one 
group of English majors held informal poetry readings once a month. 
Until Harry becomes interested in these activities, we won't know if 
they exist at Hogwarts.

I am a bit bothered by the lack of school sponored dances. In high 
school and in college, there was always some sort of formal dance in 
the fall and in the spring.

:-)Milz 




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Feb  8 18:26:14 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:26:14 -0600
Subject: James Potter's house
References: <95uet6+va41@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A82E4C6.9039B997@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11895

Hi --

yael_pou at hotmail.com wrote:

> This theory states that Lupin, as a werewolf, had to be a Slytherin.
> Sirius was also a Slytherin (partly based on Hagrid's statement in
> PS) and the rest of the gang was with them in the house.
> I further support that theory in assuming that James and Lily were
> Head Boy and Girl together, and it hardly seems fair to the other
> houses that both would be of the same house. Of course, they could
> have held the position sequentially, or have simply made the other
> houses sulk. :)

Lily was in Gryffindor (per one of the JKR chats in Oct 2000).  I don't
think we have any idea what House James or the other Marauders was in at
this point.  JKR hasn't said anything in interviews, and there's nothing
in canon as yet.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nykteris at polbox.com  Thu Feb  8 18:43:42 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:43:42 +0100
Subject: Surprisingly big Voldemort's sphere of influence?... 
Message-ID: <001b01c091ff$2783a200$1e604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 11896

Hi!     
    Some servants of Voldemort damaged my post delivering server:-(((((. 
I haven't received any letter since last Saturday. If you wrote sth personally for me, please, send it again. Now I see all the advantages the owl-post... 
    Is there an archive of this group? 
 
Katarzyna 

nykteris at polbox.com 






    


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  8 19:07:06 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:07:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin - What might he know?
In-Reply-To: <95ucch+d1k5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFKEKDCBAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11897

I think that his friend Sirius Black filled him in on everything that
happened that night. So he would know the truth about everything and who the
real really bad guys were. But it is interesting that he knows that Sirius
is not a murderer and also Dumbledor knows this and their hands are tied to
get the truth out. Will have to wait and see how JKR puts all these loose
ends to gether if not in PoA but in the other books. Wanda The Witch of
Revere, Ma

-----Original Message-----
From: gmaddox at hotmail.com [mailto:gmaddox at hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:02 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin - What
might he know?


Hi-
     I'm fairly new to the list, and this is my first post.  I've
realized that my favorite character so far has been Professor Lupin.
There's one scene that I've been looking for any posts about, and so
far I haven't been able to find any.  It's in PoA Chapter 12.  After
the first time Harry hears his dad, Lupin says, "you heard James?"
and he says it "in a strange voice."  I thought mostly about this in
light of the wand order problem (which has supposedly been fixed) and
the rumors that Lupin would make a big revelation.  He almost seems
surprised that Harry heard his dad, and I thought, maybe he knew
something about the night Harry's parents died.  Maybe he was there?
I guess it could just be Lupin's discomfort with talking about James
and Lily with Harry.  I'd be curious to know what other people might
think.

Glenn




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From sage016 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  8 19:50:12 2001
From: sage016 at yahoo.com (Kristen)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 19:50:12 -0000
Subject: Casting:Draco
In-Reply-To: <F109WhRT7cW2zrmqRap000049d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <95ut9k+r0fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11898

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at h...> 
wrote:
> I don't know if anyone else here knows this, but a friend of mine 
told me 
> today that Tom Felton is playing draco malfoy.  When she first said 
that, 
> she told me he had played Jodi Foster's son in 'Anna and the King'. 
At 
> first, I figured it would be ok, and then I saw one of the pictures 
he is in 
> from the movie.  He has very strawberry-blondish hair, more red than 
blonde 
> to me, and VERY blue eyes.  All I have to say is that I really do 
hope that 
> they give him gray contacts, bc i could not take Draco with blue 
eyes(unless 
> of course I am completely daft and he has blue eys and it is his dad 
with 
> gray eyes)  This was probably the only casting i was not pleased 
with, as I 
> have been so incredibly thrilled with everything else I have read 
about the 
> movie thus far (ESP the screenwriter interview....wow)  Anyways, if 
I am 
> wrong about his playing in the movie, if someone could please tell 
me.
> 



I always thought Draco had Blond hair.  Not strawberry blond.  
hmm....im not sure abou the eyes though, but the hair is really going 
to bother me now because ive been picturing blond for so long.  You 
know who i thought would have made a great Draco?  The little Rich kid 
from The Little Rascles.  Im not sure of his name...but to me he would 
be a great Draco...but he's 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 19:52:56 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 19:52:56 -0000
Subject: Casting Draco and Steven Kloves
In-Reply-To: <95uo79+vs71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95uteo+5j2f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11899

Cassie wrote, and I second it <g>:

>And a 
> blue-eyed strawberry blond Draco also strikes me as Wrong. <g>

Daniel Radcliffe doesn't have green eyes; presumably he'll wear 
contacts.  The problem is that while Harry Has Green Eyes is a Law of 
HP, the filmmakers/JKR might not deem Draco Has Grey Eyes and Silver-
Blond Hair as being quite so unbreakable a law.  Whereas WE all know 
it is.

We'll see...

Simon, re: your post on the interview with Steven Kloves, I wasn't 
particularly concerned that he'd written something that didn't fit 
the canon-to-be.  I wish the dialogue would all come directly from 
canon, but even the most faithful adaptations from novels have *some* 
new dialogue.  It may have been a very small detail that he put in 
that nevertheless contradicts something JKR has yet to write (you 
know--he has Ron mention Ginny's birthday, and JKR says, uh, no, 
Ginny's birthday can't be in March, and you'll find out why in Book 
6).  So I found it reassuring just to know that he is working that 
closely with JKR--and that his chief concern is to be faithful to the 
books and that for him, the characters are the most important element 
of the story--not the bells and whistles so dear to SFX guys' hearts 
like Quidditch and Peeves and Devil's Snare.  

The interviewer sounds like a complete twit.

Amy Z




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Feb  8 20:04:14 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:04:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting:Draco
In-Reply-To: <95uo79+vs71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010208200414.10523.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11900

<<*Coughs quietly* As far as physical descriptions of
Draco from canon 
go, he is "pale and pointed," in SS. In PoA he is
described as 
having "silver-blond hair." And in GoF mention is made
of his 
resemblance to his father and the fact that they have
identical "cold 
grey eyes." I also tend to assume that he's small and
slight like 
Harry since he's a Seeker as well, but that's an
assumption. And a 
blue-eyed strawberry blond Draco also strikes me as
Wrong. <g>>>



But they can *do* something about the coloring.
Contacts & bleach work miracles. 
I saw Anna & The King this weekend, or rather I saw an
hour of it, from 20 minutes in. And he might not have
the coloring, but oh my GOD does he have the voice &
the mannerisms. 
Louis is a complete brat in parts of the film,
especially when he picks a fight with the Prince, and
since I was only listening at this point, and not
really watching, I wasn't distracted by what he looks
like, and all I kept thinking was, this boy is *right*
this boy is *bad* (and i mean that in a good way). 

When the film is on cable next, turn it on. Grab a
book (not an HP one - you'll get distracted) and throw
a sheet or towel over the set. And listen. Then tell
me if you think he's wrong for the part. 
Listening to the film certainly changed my mind - when
I saw his picture, I said, "Neville?"

=====
heidi tandy

What Maureen Dowd thinks David Souter was thinking on Monday, December 11, 2000: I know the Bushes are furious at me. That'll teach 'em to assume that a guy living like a monk in an isolated New Hampshire farmhouse is some kind of Live Free or Die nut.

__________________________________________________
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From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Thu Feb  8 20:15:40 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:15:40 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dating at Hogwarts
References: <95uobi+hf9l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007201c0920b$ececa080$213a7bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 11901

> I am a bit bothered by the lack of school sponored dances. In high
> school and in college, there was always some sort of formal dance in
> the fall and in the spring.
>
The only times that there are discos arranged by a school in the UK are
usually fundraisers. The concept of social activities for pupils
arranged in out of school hours is a relatively new concept. It may not
be one JKR is familiar with.

Michelle




From bbennett at joymail.com  Thu Feb  8 20:26:18 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:26:18 -0000
Subject: Yawn....Harry again... :--)
In-Reply-To: <200102080527.f185RGC06701@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <95uvda+7le3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11903

Kathy, you're bad - you've got to stop with these subject lines. :*)

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at c...> wrote:

> And I also think that PoU Harry enjoys public displays far more 
than canon-Harry would ever do, but that this is something else I 
could see in Ron.

An interesting comment, Kathy. One thing I also thought as I read PoU 
was that Lori's Harry enjoys the spotlight a bit more than I 
personally think he would (I think that after all he's been through, 
he'd avoid anything he associates with "the limelight", including 
speaking at a function such as at the end of PoU, regardless of the 
audience). I suppose that is something I could imagine Ron relishing. 
Of course, we all change so tremendously between 14 and (what is 
Harry in PoU - 27?), and the death of a close friend would certainly 
have been a personality-altering experience as well. Frankly, I was 
so into PoU at that point, then even though I thought "well, I'm not 
sure I agree with that particular aspect of the characterization", I 
also thought "oooo, good story!!!". 

Kathy wrote: 
> Of course, we can argue until the cows come home (and have) about 
different interpretations of characters and different readings of 
canon, and much of this is based on that.  If we disagree on the 
readings of the original characters, it stands to reason we would 
disagree on the extrapolated personalities of the characters as they 
age.>

Absolutely. I see no (romantic) interest of Hermione for Harry in the 
canon, so that colors my view of the characters. People who don't 
think Hermoine is interested in Ron have completely different 
characterizations in their heads. This of course carries over into 
fan fiction. Actually, this is sort of the ultimate challenge, isn't 
it? - to get someone to enjoy a story even if your characters or 
situations aren't what they imagined. 


> Penny wrote:
> >Are you thinking that PoU Harry has characteristics that would 
apply to an adult fanfic Ron?

Kathy wrote:
> Actually that's a really good observation, Penny.  I think this is 
a big part of it.

Thinking back over PoU (the first fanfiction I read - it's been a 
while!), I think I could see some of this too (that grown PoU Harry 
might have some characteristics I'd imagine in grown Ron). 

Kathy wrote:
> I am not knocking PoU.  I do hope you realize that comparing PoU 
Harry to Ron is a compliment coming from an R/H-er.  (Hey, at least 
it's better than "You killed Ron!  You bad, evil person!" <g>)

If Lori wrote poorly, it wouldn't have been so upsetting to read 
those scenes where Ron's death was discussed. I thought Lori's 
handling of those sections was particularly outstanding. 

> carole again:
> >Ok I missed something between arguing for a Ron personality and 
making a leap to therapy needing Harry.  You seem to be implying that 
if Ron has a personality, then Harry would inevitably end up as a 
basket?

Since this original comment was directed at me, I thought I'd better 
throw in my 2 cents. During our meeting in Annapolis last weekeend, 
we discussed concerns over Harry's mental state if he survives 
everything the next few years have in store for him (and PLEASE let 
him survive everything the next few years have in store for him!). I 
would expect he'd need therapy (everyone involved would). I don't 
think needing therapy after losing your parents to the world's most 
evil wizard, spending 10 years of your life with an unloving family, 
living in a spider-filled closet for the same amount of time, 
unexpectedly finding out you're world famous, being annually attacked 
by the same villian who killed your parents, inadvertently leading a 
fellow student to his death, and who knows what else, means Harry 
will become a basket case. I'd be in therapy for years just for the 
spider-y closet thing <shudder>.
 
> Cassie wrote:
> >I don't think anyone said or implied that. I hope not. The 
outpouring of support for Harry and the statements that we don't find 
him boring, but instead very loveable, were not meant to denigrate 
Ron by extension.

Kathy wrote: 
> Just like my (or any R/H-er's, for that matter) support or defense 
of Ron doesn't mean denigration of Harry <snip>

Of course not. Harry's wonderful. I 'think' in terms of R/H because 
that's what I interpreted when I read GoF (and what JKR has hinted is 
going on), but I love all three characters. 

B.





From rlpenar at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  8 20:55:14 2001
From: rlpenar at yahoo.com (rlpenar at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:55:14 -0000
Subject: James Potter's house
In-Reply-To: <3A82E4C6.9039B997@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <95v13i+mank@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11904

> yael wrote:
> 
> > <snip>I further support that theory in assuming that James and 
Lily were
> > Head Boy and Girl together, and it hardly seems fair to the other
> > houses that both would be of the same house. <snip>
> 
> Lily was in Gryffindor (per one of the JKR chats in Oct 2000).  I 
don't
> think we have any idea what House James or the other Marauders was 
in at
> this point.  JKR hasn't said anything in interviews, and there's 
nothing
> in canon as yet.
> 
> Penny
> 
But...do we know of any example where a child of a former Hogwarts 
student was not in the same house as their parent? Even more, other 
than Percy (Gryffindor) and Penelope (Ravenclaw), do we know of any 
(canon) pairings from mixed houses?? Weren't both Mr & Mrs Weasley in 
Gryffindor? Do we know about Snape's mother (assuming, of course, 
that Lucius was in Slytherin)? It almost seems like a family 
tradition ~ in fact, perhaps this is why Lucius wanted dear old Draco 
to go to Hogwarts, so that he could continue the Slytherin tradition 
in the Malfoy family (since we never hear of any siblings that could 
continue this tradition). 

However, in thinking this through a little more as I write this, no 
one seemed to bat an eye that Percy and Penelope were together, so 
maybe it's not that uncommon to have mixed relationships. Following 
this through, if we assume that James was in a different house than 
Lily (who was in G), does the fact that Harry is in G mean that he 
has more of Lily's traits/characteristics? 

Becky




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 21:45:05 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:45:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting:Draco
Message-ID: <F64CZakJ09310oVjPpQ0000b29e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11905

Well, as someone said only remembering PALE eyes, I will say this kids eyes 
are BRIGHT blue, a BEUATIFUL blue, just wrong for draco.  Also, his hair can 
be fixed, hair dye, so that is ok.  I think he has lost some weight since 
Anna and the King, so he will be thin and pale, but i am worried he did have 
a few freckles.  You can find a picture of him at the official anna and the 
king website under production and then under cast.  Look for Tom Felton.

Stephanie
who agrees COMPLETELY with Cassie, that is wrong! you can't have a perfect 
Harry and an imperfect Malfoy!!



>*Coughs quietly* As far as physical descriptions of Draco from canon
>go, he is "pale and pointed," in SS. In PoA he is described as
>having "silver-blond hair." And in GoF mention is made of his
>resemblance to his father and the fact that they have identical "cold
>grey eyes." I also tend to assume that he's small and slight like
>Harry since he's a Seeker as well, but that's an assumption. And a
>blue-eyed strawberry blond Draco also strikes me as Wrong. <g>
>
>Cassie

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From DEF913 at AOL.com  Thu Feb  8 21:52:19 2001
From: DEF913 at AOL.com (DEF913 at AOL.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:52:19 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 554
Message-ID: <5c.6f5ed12.27b46f13@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11906

thanks for my first email


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu  Thu Feb  8 22:23:26 2001
From: hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu (Paul W. Hanbury, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:23:26 -0000
Subject: James Potter's house
In-Reply-To: <95v13i+mank@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95v68u+mqn8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11907


>  
> But...do we know of any example where a child of a former Hogwarts 
> student was not in the same house as their parent? Even more, other 
> than Percy (Gryffindor) and Penelope (Ravenclaw), do we know of any 
> (canon) pairings from mixed houses?? Weren't both Mr & Mrs Weasley 
> in Gryffindor? Do we know about Snape's mother (assuming, of 
> course, that Lucius was in Slytherin)? It almost seems like a 
> family tradition ~ in fact, perhaps this is why Lucius wanted dear 
> old Draco to go to Hogwarts, so that he could continue the 
> Slytherin tradition in the Malfoy family (since we never hear of 
> any siblings that could continue this tradition). 
> 
> However, in thinking this through a little more as I write this, no 
> one seemed to bat an eye that Percy and Penelope were together, so 
> maybe it's not that uncommon to have mixed relationships. Following 
> this through, if we assume that James was in a different house than 
> Lily (who was in G), does the fact that Harry is in G mean that he 
> has more of Lily's traits/characteristics? 
> 
> Becky

Harry admits that the only reason that he was put in Gryffindor is 
that he begged the Sorting Hat not to put him in Slytherin.  This is 
not suprising if Harry really is a descendant (or ancestor :) of 
Salazar Slytherin.  If this is true, there is a good chance that 
James was in Slytherin because he, too, by your arguement must have 
been a descendant of Salazar (Lily was in Gryffindor).  Harry, then, 
could have been put in either House, because his parents come from 
both Houses.

I wouldn't find it surprising to discover that the Marauders all come 
from Slytherin.  Not registring as animagus. The map. Peter Pettigrew 
as a Death Eater spy revealing the location of the Potters.  
Pettigrew disguised as the Weasley family pet.  I thought of these 
of of the top of my head.  If I think on it longer, there might be 
more.  "For these it was in Slytherin / They made their real 
friends / These cunning folks use any means / To achieve their ends."

I also have to mention the hatred that Snape seems to have for James 
(which he currently redirects to Harry).  I think that a bitterness 
that can span a generation must have been caused by something really 
awful, probably something that tore apart their friendship.  

It might be farfetched, but I'm thinking that Lucius Malfoy, 
Snape,and the Marauders were Slytherin housemates.  As Voldemort's 
power was increasing, a large number of the (ex-)Slytherins became 
Death Eaters.  James, who was newlywed to Lily, refused.  Some of 
Voldemort's new followers were offended by this and turned against 
him.  

I don't have the text in front of me and don't remember if it 
mentions why Voldemort attacked the Potters on that Halloween.  I may 
be completely wrong in what I wrote above, but thanks for reading; I 
know that this message became a lot longer than I originally intended.

Paul




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 23:02:36 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:02:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cho Chang and the Backyard Quidditch Buddy
Message-ID: <F123Efjkf50yAlzIXhG00019e02@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11908

My name is Signe and I am a *newbie* to HPforGrownups.  However, I am not 
such a stranger to your discussion topics.  My friend Stephanie keeps me 
posted on everything you guys talk about, so I just thought I would join 
myself.  Also, I am her Backyard Quidditch Buddy.  I provide the trampoline 
:)

I love all the character so much (even Snape) that it is hard to decide my 
favorites, but I think they are Hagrid, Sirius, and Hedwig.

I guess if anything I am an R/H, because I want Harry to have a 
quasi-relationship with Cho, and its so cute to watch Ron and Hermione 
bicker.

This leads to my question about Cho.  I got the impression that she was of 
Asian ethnicity b/c of her name.  However, Stephanie thinks she has blonde 
hair. I looked it up in GoF, and I can see where Stephanie got confused b/c 
it talks about Cho sitting next to the girl with silvery blonde hair 
(Fleur).  However, she continues to argue (she says she remembers something 
in PoA) and it has begun to effect our Quiudditch-life, j/k.  So if anyone 
has anymore proof of Cho's ethnicity, please email me.

Oh yeah, and I am glad to be a part of the list.
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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  8 23:23:49 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:23:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco (filk)
References: <981301438.159.42041.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000801c09226$31f31280$afc44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11909

Draco

Dedicated to Pippin

(To the tune of Day-O)

(THE SCENE: Slytherin Common Room. Enter VINCENT CRABBE AND GREGORY GOYLE)

CRABBE: Draco!Draco! 
Draco, come, make Harry go home
Dra! Give me Dra, give me Dra, give me Dra, give me Draco
CRABBE & GOYLE:  Draco, come, make Harry go home

(Enter DRACO MALFOY)

DRACO M: Ever since initial day of his arrival
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home
DM: Harry Potter has been my chief arch-rival
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home
DM: He could of joined with Slytherin to try to please me 
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home
DM: Instead, he rather mingle with that tribe of Weasleys 
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home

DM: Harry got himself a broomstick, thought he could play Quidditch
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home
DM: We know that he can not, but he always grab the Gold Snitch
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home

ALL: We're six games seven games eight games down, huh!
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home
ALL: It's time once more to don Dementor gown
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home
DM: Harry is bad, make us lose our elf
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home
DM: Poor Mom has to clean the house herself 
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home
DM: Harry quite insulting, he can't get worse, see?
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home
DM: He tell people I'm another Dudley Dursely. 
C & G: Draco, come, make Harry go home

C & G: Dra! Give me Dra, give me Dra, give me Dra, give me Draco
ALL: Dirty Harry, go ahead and make our Day-O!

   - CMC

(the last line doesn't scan, but I couldn't resist)











From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Thu Feb  8 23:19:03 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:19:03 -0000
Subject: Who will be prefect and other stuff
Message-ID: <95v9h7+hd86@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11910

yes I know that this discussion was a days ago but oh well, I found 
it interesting on how much people were concentrating on the grades 
for who will become prefect.  I think of it as who would be a good 
role model and would be a good leader.  Yes good grades would be a 
factor but I in no way feel that is the big factor.  I think that the 
teachers will look at the characters for role-model material.  I 
think that Hermione will be a prefect because she has good grades, 
trtys to keep others in line, is helpful, etc.  Yes she tends to be 
abit bossy but she's just trying(forecfully trying) to push others to 
reach their potential and stay out of getting in trouble.  I aslo 
think that Harry will be made a prefect b/c he's known for being 
against the dark arts which is something that the school would want 
to promote.  Yes he tends to break some rules accompained by Hermione 
and Ron but his breaking the rules tends to save the world so I think 
that that will be looked over.  I've also been surprised that many 
people only think that there is one prefect per house per year, I 
think with the 800-1000 students that there would be more then that.  
I figure that at least there is one boy and one girl per year per(5 
th year and up) house and then two of them are chosen to be head boy 
and girl.  This brings my to something else, why would it be a 
problem to have both head boy and head girl be in the same house, if 
they're the best choice then they should be chosen. 
As to Lily and James and co. and their houses, I think that they were 
all in Gryfindor, J.K. has said that Lily was in Gryfindor and I'm 
almost positve that somewhere it mentioned ONE of the MWPP gang being 
in Gryfindor, therefore they all had to be b/c MWPP were all room 
mates.  I guess I'm just blown aways that other people didn't 
persieve it that way and will have to re-read the books(for like the 
fourth time, eighth if you count listening to the books on tape) 
looking for evidence of some sort.
Back to the prefect thing, if there are more students allowed to be 
prefects then it would be neat if Ron was chosen too and not left out 
but I don't see him being chosen over Harry, he breaks just as many 
rules and (no Ron loves take offense) I see Harry being the better 
role model, less mentally immature and all that.
One more thing, does anyone think that it's kinda unfair that Harry 
and ROn got an award in CoS but Hermione didn't, she might not have 
been down in the chamber but if it wasn't for the information she 
found that Harry found in her hand, Harry wouldn't have been able to 
save the day.  Well, I think it's unfair but then maybe that's just 
me and my love for Hermione.

~Star~
off to go do that five odd hours of homework she let pile up.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 00:12:55 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:12:55 -0000
Subject: Houses...
In-Reply-To: <95v68u+mqn8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95vcm7+aie8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11911

Paul wrote:
"I wouldn't find it surprising to discover that the Marauders all come
from Slytherin.  Not registring as animagus. The map. Peter Pettigrew 
as a Death Eater spy revealing the location of the Potters. Pettigrew 
disguised as the Weasley family pet.  I thought of these of of the 
top of my head.  If I think on it longer, there might be more.  'For 
these it was in Slytherin / They made their real  friends / These 
cunning folks use any means / To achieve their ends.'"

--I can certainly see you argument here, however it does seem rather 
implausible. When Jo revealed that Lily was in Gryffindor she tacked 
in an -"of Course."  (Maybe this was when she stated that Hagrid was 
in Gryffindor, anyway it was someone.) The fact that it seemed 
obvious to her that these characters were in Gryffindor is what makes 
me think that James et al were most likely Gryffindors.

Paul wrote:
"It might be farfetched, but I'm thinking that Lucius Malfoy, 
Snape,and the Marauders were Slytherin housemates.  As Voldemort's 
power was increasing, a large number of the (ex-)Slytherins became 
Death Eaters.  James, who was newlywed to Lily, refused.  Some of 
Voldemort's new followers were offended by this and turned against 
him."  

--This could be an explanation I guess. It seems to be generally 
accepted however that Lucius was older than the Marauders and Snape. 
More likely he and Arthur Weasely are contemperaries.

Now to post a question to you guys- I am the only one bothered by the 
fact that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are almost completely in the 
background? They even know it, and usually support Gryffindor, just 
b/c they don't like Slytherin. It was this that got me thinking about 
just why Hermione, an obvious intellectual type, is in Gryffindor. 
Sure maybe she values bravery over intellect (she does- in SS/PS 
Harry says something and she says "Me? Cleverness?
But the only reason that Harry is in Gryff. is because he asked to 
be. You don't suppose Hermione read about Gryff., decided it was the 
best and ASKED to be put there do you?

Scott
PS: Does anyone know how I can make my name, instead of my email 
address come up at the top of each message









From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 00:26:09 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (harry_potter00 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:26:09 -0000
Subject: Correction ( wasRe: Houses...)
In-Reply-To: <95vcm7+aie8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95vdf1+knhq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11912

I wrote:
"...just why Hermione, an obvious intellectual type, is in 
Gryffindor. Sure maybe she values bravery over intellect (she does- 
in SS/PS Harry says something and she says "Me? Cleverness?"


I'm correcting, or rather finishing myself here. It should be-

'Harry- you're a great wizard you know.'

'I'm not as good as you,' said Harry, very embarrassed as she let go 
of him.

'Me!' said Hermione, 'Books! And cleverness! There are more important 
things- friendship and bravery and- oh Harry- be *careful*!'

Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
"Through the Trapdoor" p. 287

(I've lent out my copy of Philosopher's Stone so I can't give the 
pages for the British ed.)

This is one of my favourite Hermione quotes, and expresses why she is 
in Gryffindor very well. (I was just wondering if "Hogwarts: A 
History" and other such books could have influenced her at all.)


Scott





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  9 00:39:44 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:39:44 -0000
Subject: Draco (filk)
In-Reply-To: <000801c09226$31f31280$afc44b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <95ve8g+fbuk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11913

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Draco
> 
> Dedicated to Pippin
> 
  Well, I am terribly flattered...not sure why I rate the Draco song 
though, are you sure it's not for Cassie? She's the Dracomaniac.
Pippin





From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 01:36:47 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 01:36:47 -0000
Subject: Houses... Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff
In-Reply-To: <95vcm7+aie8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95vhjf+n85u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11914

Scott says:
> fact that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are almost completely in the 
> background? They even know it, and usually support Gryffindor, just 
> b/c they don't like Slytherin. It was this that got me thinking 
about 
> just why Hermione, an obvious intellectual type, is in Gryffindor. 
> Sure maybe she values bravery over intellect (she does- in SS/PS 
> Harry says something and she says "Me? Cleverness?
> But the only reason that Harry is in Gryff. is because he asked to 
> be. You don't suppose Hermione read about Gryff., decided it was 
the 
> best and ASKED to be put there do you?

I really hate that we don't know any more about Ravenclaw and 
hufflepuff. I think it's a shame that they don't get to even root for 
themselves (except when Hufflepuff roots for Cedric.) If Ravenclaw is 
so smart, why don't THEY win the house championship, seeing that they 
OUGHT to win lots of points in class? 

How on earth did Slytherin ever win the house championship? i've 
never seen them win even a point... Nor have a seen anyone do 
anything that Slytherin ought to be able to win points for. 

Go Ravenclaw! Three cheers for Hufflepuff! Bravery is great, and 
cunning is all well and good, but give me loyalty and intelligence 
any day. 

Heather M.




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb  9 02:01:59 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:01:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin - What might  he know?
References: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFKEKDCBAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3A834F94.FBB4471D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11915

Roy Mallett Jr wrote:

> I think that his friend Sirius Black filled him in on everything that
> happened that night. So he would know the truth about everything and
> who the real really bad guys were. But it is interesting that he knows
> that Sirius
> is not a murderer and also Dumbledor knows this and their hands are
> tied to get the truth out. Will have to wait and see how JKR puts all
> these loose ends to gether if not in PoA but in the other books.

Are you implying that Lupin knew the truth about Sirius during the scene
with Harry, when he asked if Harry heard James? Because that's not the
case, that's clear from the text. Lupin didn't get the details straight
until the confrontation in the Shrieking Shack.

--Amanda


> Wanda The Witch of
> Revere, Ma
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmaddox at hotmail.com [mailto:gmaddox at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:02 AM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin - What
> might he know?
>
>
> Hi-
>      I'm fairly new to the list, and this is my first post.  I've
> realized that my favorite character so far has been Professor Lupin.
> There's one scene that I've been looking for any posts about, and so
> far I haven't been able to find any.  It's in PoA Chapter 12.  After
> the first time Harry hears his dad, Lupin says, "you heard James?"
> and he says it "in a strange voice."  I thought mostly about this in
> light of the wand order problem (which has supposedly been fixed) and
> the rumors that Lupin would make a big revelation.  He almost seems
> surprised that Harry heard his dad, and I thought, maybe he knew
> something about the night Harry's parents died.  Maybe he was there?
> I guess it could just be Lupin's discomfort with talking about James
> and Lily with Harry.  I'd be curious to know what other people might
> think.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see
> our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check
> out
> our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
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>
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> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
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                     www.


>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see
> our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Fri Feb  9 02:39:30 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:39:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin - What might  he know?
In-Reply-To: <3A834F94.FBB4471D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFMEKICBAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11916

Your right! But there was something going on for him to ask that of Harry.
JKR writes so well that at times we don't even know whose good and whose
bad. Thank you,Amanda I'm still learning more about this world of Harry
Potter. I've read the first two books to my boys as part of our family
reading time. We are on the third book. I already read all four books. This
will be recall for me. Will get in touch with the group tomorrow night.
Wanda The Witch in Revere,Ma.

-----Original Message-----
From: Amanda Lewanski [mailto:editor at texas.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:02 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin -
What might he know?


Roy Mallett Jr wrote:

> I think that his friend Sirius Black filled him in on everything that
> happened that night. So he would know the truth about everything and
> who the real really bad guys were. But it is interesting that he knows
> that Sirius
> is not a murderer and also Dumbledor knows this and their hands are
> tied to get the truth out. Will have to wait and see how JKR puts all
> these loose ends to gether if not in PoA but in the other books.

Are you implying that Lupin knew the truth about Sirius during the scene
with Harry, when he asked if Harry heard James? Because that's not the
case, that's clear from the text. Lupin didn't get the details straight
until the confrontation in the Shrieking Shack.

--Amanda


> Wanda The Witch of
> Revere, Ma
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmaddox at hotmail.com [mailto:gmaddox at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:02 AM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin - What
> might he know?
>
>
> Hi-
>      I'm fairly new to the list, and this is my first post.  I've
> realized that my favorite character so far has been Professor Lupin.
> There's one scene that I've been looking for any posts about, and so
> far I haven't been able to find any.  It's in PoA Chapter 12.  After
> the first time Harry hears his dad, Lupin says, "you heard James?"
> and he says it "in a strange voice."  I thought mostly about this in
> light of the wand order problem (which has supposedly been fixed) and
> the rumors that Lupin would make a big revelation.  He almost seems
> surprised that Harry heard his dad, and I thought, maybe he knew
> something about the night Harry's parents died.  Maybe he was there?
> I guess it could just be Lupin's discomfort with talking about James
> and Lily with Harry.  I'd be curious to know what other people might
> think.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see
> our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check
> out
> our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
> groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                     www.


>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see
> our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check
> out our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
> groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Feb  9 04:01:19 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:01:19 -0600
Subject: James Potter's house
References: <95v13i+mank@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A836B8F.C7B5731F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11917

Hi --

rlpenar at yahoo.com wrote:

> But...do we know of any example where a child of a former Hogwarts
> student was not in the same house as their parent?

Well, we know siblings don't always get sorted into the same House.
Harry assumed they did when Colin Creevey was worried his younger
brother Dennis might get put somewhere else.  But, Hermione corrected
him -- reminding him that Padma Patil (Parvarti's identical twin sister)
was in Ravenclaw.

> Even more, other than Percy (Gryffindor) and Penelope (Ravenclaw), do
> we know of any (canon) pairings from mixed houses??

Cho (Ravenclaw) & Cedric (Hufflepuff).  The Hufflepuff (or Slytherin)
who took Fleur Delacour to the Yule Ball.  I'm sure there are plenty of
others that we just haven't heard about.  It doesn't make sense to me
that inter-House friendships & romances wouldn't form naturally.

> Following this through, if we assume that James was in a different
> house than Lily (who was in G), does the fact that Harry is in G mean
> that he
> has more of Lily's traits/characteristics?

I think the Marauders were probably all in Gryffindor.  We've debated
this alot in the past, and at one point someone had a very good theory
why they might have all been in 4 different Houses.  And someone else
had good reasons why they might be all in Slytherin.  But, I think if
Lily was in Gryffindor, it was likely that James was as well (for
reasons I can't articulate other than JKR said Lily was in Gryffindor
"of course" -- implying that all the good guys are in Gryffindor).  I
preferred our more complex reasoning, but it seems she may have a more
simple answer on that question.  We'll see!

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Feb  9 04:53:40 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:53:40 -0600
Subject: SHIP/FF: Adult "Fanfic" Harry & Ron
References: <95uva4+75ak@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8377D4.19F7BF1C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11918

Hi --

I had this composed and then my computer froze up & ate it.  Grr!

I refuse to use those subject lines from Kathy that are insulting to
Harry so I've changed it.  Friendly Admin reminder: even if you are
going to insult Harry in your subject line (<g>), please be sure to
preface it with SHIP or FF if applicable.  It allows those who don't
live & die on the shipper debates to delete or skip those messages.

bbennett at joymail.com wrote:

> Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at c...> wrote:
>
> > And I also think that PoU Harry enjoys public displays far more
> than canon-Harry would ever do, but that this is something else I
> could see in Ron.
>
> An interesting comment, Kathy. One thing I also thought as I read PoU
> was that Lori's Harry enjoys the spotlight a bit more than I
> personally think he would (I think that after all he's been through,
> he'd avoid anything he associates with "the limelight", including
> speaking at a function such as at the end of PoU, regardless of the
> audience). I suppose that is something I could imagine Ron relishing.

I think PoU Harry *tolerates* the spotlight more than he *enjoys* it (or
seeks it out).  Ron, OTOH, would seek it out and relish it.

> > Penny wrote:
> > >Are you thinking that PoU Harry has characteristics that would
> apply to an adult fanfic Ron?
>
> Kathy wrote:
> > Actually that's a really good observation, Penny.  I think this is
> a big part of it.
>
> Thinking back over PoU (the first fanfiction I read - it's been a
> while!), I think I could see some of this too (that grown PoU Harry
> might have some characteristics I'd imagine in grown Ron).

Okay, I still don't know what these similarities are.  I was making the
assumption that it must be what Kathy meant.  But, I still see very
little likelihood for similarities between extrapolated adult fanfic
Harry and extrapolated adult fanfic Ron.  They're so different in
canon.  And, I just don't see anything about PoU Harry that looks
remotely what I would envision for an adult fanfic Ron.  Can either of
you elaborate? <g>

Kathy:

> After thinking about it more, I think it has a lot to do with PoU Harry's utter focus on
> Hermione, which I see as a distinctly Ron trait.
>
One of these days I'm going to sit down & catalogue every single
interaction between H&H, Ha & R,and He & R.  I don't think that Ron
focuses more on Hermione.  I don't think that Harry is less attentive to
Hermione.  I don't think that Ron & Hermione spend more time together
than with Harry.  I don't think that Ron & Hermione are better friends
than Harry & Hermione.  I don't think Harry cares for Ron more than
Hermione.  The list goes on & on ... I think analysis of the characters'
interactions with one another would bear all this out .... but I'm sure
I can't convince Kathy without statistical proof.

> I am rather taken with the scenario that Harry settles down and
> does something besides saving the world once Voldemort is taken care of,
>
Yeah ... I can picture him settled down happily with Hermione -- 2 kids,
nice boring job at the MoM.  Let me guess: not what you had in mind,
Kathy?  <g>

> while Ron has his chance to shine by doing something Important and Useful like
> fighting evil.
>
I think I'm going to comment more about this in another post (when I get
back from my weekend trip).  I have some thoughts about Ron that
occurred to me as I was listening to the GoF tapes again today ....(I
can hear Neil screaming from across the Atlantic "No, not more stuff I
must add to the Ron FAQ!  No!!")

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Feb  9 05:10:21 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:10:21 -0800
Subject: Fun - Evil - Dances - Houses Several Times
Message-ID: <3A837BBC.B9B865C2@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11919

Stephanie Malfoy wrote:
> Also, the game has become much less
> dangerous and it is so much fun.  Harry Potter at its best!

How did you make it less dangerous?

> But anyways, SEVERAL of the kids in my neighborhood heard
> of the game through a younger sister and they all started reading
> the books, and I have had a run on my house requesting to borrow
> my trivia game, books, cds/tapes, etc etc etc.  It is wonderful.
> On a touching note, a little boy(i think he is 9) came and
> took the first book from me, and his mother called me and thanked
> me so much for getting him interested in reading.

This is so wonderful that I quoted it back atcha.

Katarzyna  nykteris wrote:
> Surprisingly big Voldemort's sphere of influence?...
> Some servants of Voldemort damaged my post delivering server:-(((((.

I LOL when I read that.
HP4GU archive is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/messages

Michelle Apostolides wrote:
> The only times that there are discos arranged by a school
> in the UK are usually fundraisers. The concept of social
> activities for pupils arranged in out of school hours is a
> relatively new concept.

Should I understand that to mean that students at boarding school are
responsible for creating their own entertainments?

Becky  rlpenar wrote:
> Even more, other than Percy (Gryffindor) and Penelope
> (Ravenclaw), do we know of any (canon) pairings from
> mixed houses??

The description of the Yule Ball specifically states that people who had
dates from other Houses rendezvoused with their dates in a crowd just
outside the Great Hall.

> why Lucius wanted dear old Draco to go to Hogwarts, so that
> he could continue the Slytherin tradition in the Malfoy family

In GoF, Draco tells his friends that Lucius had wanted to send him to
Durmstrang but his mama didn't want to let her little boy go so far from
home. [If he was telling the truth, Lucius didn't particularly want
Draco to go to Hogwarts.] In Madam Malkin's robe shop in SS, Draco said
"Well, no one really knows until they get there, do they, but I know
I'll be in Slytherin, all our family have been -- imagine being in
Hufflepuff, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" [Which appears that DRACO
wanted to continue the family Slytherin tradition.]

Scott wrote:
> I am the only one bothered by the fact that Ravenclaw and
> Hufflepuff are almost completely in the background?

I refuse to think that misogyny is the reason for the Houses founded by
females to be in the background...  I am not exactly BOTHERED, as I
understand that JKR is only telling Harry's story, but I WOULD like to
know more about my Ravenclaw Housemates.

> You don't suppose Hermione read about Gryff., decided it was the
> best and ASKED to be put there do you?

I'm sure I recently quoted Hermione on the train from SS:
"Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything I could if it
was me," said Hermione. "Do either of you know what house you'll be in?
I've been asking around, and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far
the best; I hear Dumbledore himself was in it, but I suppose Ravenclaw
wouldn't be too bad.... Anyway, we'd better go and look for Neville's
toad. You two had better change, you know, I expect we'll be there
soon."

> Does anyone know how I can make my name, instead of my email
> address come up at the top of each message

By posting through the Web site instead of through your e-mail client.
There isn't anything wrong with being harry_potter00

Heather M. wrote:
> If Ravenclaw is so smart, why don't THEY win the house
> championship, seeing that they OUGHT to win lots of points
> in class? How on earth did Slytherin ever win the house
> championship? i've  never seen them win even a point...
> Nor have a seen anyone do anything that Slytherin ought to be
> able to win points for.

Since not all the smart people are in Ravenclaw, it cannot be that all
the people in Ravenclaw are smart. I suppose their (our) defining
characteristic is being *interested* in book-learning and
intellectualism, not necessarily being *good* at it. I tried to express
that in my fic Cho's Injury (in the files section of this egroup) by Cho
and Mary's passion for Quidditch leading them to read every book on the
subject and endlessly discuss the strategy of each game they watched.

You have seen Slytherin win points in Quidditch, and you've seen Malfoy
getting good marks in Potions, which might also be worth points. If a
Slytherin who wants to win points can't figure out a way to do so, then
Slytherin cunning can't be very useful.

Penny wrote:
> The Hufflepuff (or Slytherin) who took Fleur Delacour to the Yule
Ball.

Roger Davies, the Ravenclaw Quidditch captain.  Somehow I know that one
by heart....
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From litalex at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 06:01:16 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:01:16 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun - Evil - Dances - Houses Several Times
References: <3A837BBC.B9B865C2@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <01f701c0925d$b79234c0$bc0ceda9@y1j2s0>

No: HPFGUIDX 11920

Hello,

From: "Catlady" <catlady at wicca.net>
> Should I understand that to mean that students at boarding school are
> responsible for creating their own entertainments?

Haven't they always?  Where do you think all those stories about boys in
boarding schools come from? <eg>

Someone else (sorry):
> > Does anyone know how I can make my name, instead of my email
> > address come up at the top of each message

Depends on your e-mail program, but these programs usually have a place that
lets you put in your information (identity slot, I think).

little Alex





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Feb  9 06:27:25 2001
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:27:25 -0500
Subject: PoU Harry and the spotlight
Message-ID: <v02140b7eb6a93d28164b@[140.254.113.133]>

No: HPFGUIDX 11921


My apologies if this is OT.

The comments regarding PoU Harry enjoying the spotlight made me think, and
I always love comments that make me do that.

It made me think about whether he does or not.  So I'm considering evidence
about Harry vis a vis international attention in PoU...and forgive me if I
miss some points you're thinking of, even though I wrote the damned thing
it's easy for me to forget details.

1.  Harry works as an undercover agent and doesn't tell anyone what he does.
2.  Harry and Hermione go out and attract attention while swing
dancing...but that's just among Muggles.
3.  Harry is asked to speak at the Friends and Former Pupils Gala by
Sirius...however it's seen that his public speaking skills are rusty and so
implies he doesn't do it a lot.
4.  Harry and Hermione reluctantly grant an interview to the Daily Prophet
about their relationship.  This would have been news no matter what he did.

I'm not sure I've portrayed Harry as enjoying the spotlight, but neither
have I described him actively avoiding it.  Honestly, I haven't given it
much thought in the course of the stories.

They way I *think* of it (which may or may not be the way it comes across
on the page) is that Harry isn't as shy as he was at 14, after all he's
more mature and has had plenty of time to get used to his fame.  I don't
see him as a glory hound but I don't see him being reclusive.  I think he
would accept his role in the wizarding world and the little foibles that go
with it.

Comments?
Lori



**************************************************
Lori   "How Much Would You Pay"  Summers

     "That Hieronymous Bosch.  What a weirdo."
                --Crowley, "Good Omens"

Last movie seen:  "Run Lola Run"
Discman's spinning:  "Pleasantville" soundtrack
Nighttable:  "HP and the Goblet of Fire" UK edition
***************************************************





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Feb  9 06:24:16 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:24:16 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ron and Hermione - "It's a family affair!"
Message-ID: <009701c09260$edd5c760$5b3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11922

STOP PRESS: FFA attempts a serious shipping post - no poems, no parodies - everyone chokes back the boredom as he enters 'Binns' mode.

***

[DISCLAIMER ? I haven?t read every single shipping post - I need to see the world outside - so I apologise if the following thoughts have been proposed before.  I also pity you if you think like I do]

Not wishing to suggest that there are only two male archetypes [waves at Dave Hardenbrook and all the women on this list], but during the various discussions about Ron and Harry in canon and fanon, I?ve become increasingly sure that I?m like Ron, and not, as I?d hoped, like Harry.  I don?t share Ron?s passion for sport, but I am sarcastic and insecure and I was inclined, when younger, to be very jealous and indulge in blanking people with fuming silences.  I am also freckly and have a touch of redhead in me (in fact, I've found a picture of me aged 11 that looks uncannily like Rupert Grint in 'Joe 90' glasses).  I?m stretching it, I know.  Indulge me, please?.

My reason for mentioning all that is that I?ve been told that, in relationships, I?m inclined to fall into the parent-child model, where I?m the parent, and that set me thinking of Ron as a ?parent? in our triumvirate?.

In my view, Harry is the ?child? to Ron & Hermione?s ?parents? in many respects.  Harry came to the magical world like a newborn baby, ignorant of its wonders, while, by birth and book, respectively; Ron and Hermione became his ?elders?, teachers and advisors.  Harry is the risk-taking teen swimming in newfound popularity, while Ron is the exasperated guide and Hermione the admonishing rulekeeper.  In Harry?s shadow, Ron could be compared with the father who lives through his son.  He watches his Quidditch matches and encourages him, despite his own lack of involvement; he experiences poverty, while Harry enjoys a wizard fortune (isn't it often the case that parents wish better for their children than they had?).  Hermione, on the other hand, is the perfect, finger wagging, nagging mother, who does everything but wipe Harry?s face with a spittled hankie. 

I could equally make a case for Hermione and Harry as the parents and Ron as the child, if I shift the emphasis to the Muggle world, but my point (I did get there eventually) is that this is a three-way relationship that engenders familial love and bonding.  My original model isn't all-encompassing and doesn?t preclude romantic links within the ?family,? but it is, perhaps, the foundation of the lasting, platonic friendship between these three.  Alternatively, it could also be that Harry ?grows up? and moves on, as many children do, and that Ron and Hermione are left to enjoy their fractious ?marriage,? or that we?ll witness an eye-popping ?incestuous? relationship between Harry and one of the other two.  

Okay, now pull me to pieces!

Neil

_____________________________________

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Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

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From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Fri Feb  9 06:50:37 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (mohuebner0 at lycos.de)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 06:50:37 -0000
Subject: Lupin & Snape as teachers
In-Reply-To: <3A82990B.7A544890@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9603vt+lnn9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11923

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> mohuebner0 at l... wrote:


> Well, to play Devil's Advocate, if you were a parent, and were in 
the
> wizarding world, no matter how much you liked Lupin and were 
willing to
> hang with him at parties and have him over for supper, you'd 
probably be
> about as likely to accept him teaching your child as you'd be as a
> Muggle to accept a teacher with rabies.

I can see your point here. But I would still think that if Albus
Dumbledore hired him as a teacher, he is safe. Dumbledore is
no fool. Of course he doesn't know everything and isn't allmighty,
but he wouldn't deliberately endanger his students.

Snape on the other hand doesn't endanger his students physically, 
but the psychological damage he causes is worse IMHO than what Lupin
*may* do to my kids. While Lupin might be dangerous once a month if 
he forgets to take his potion, Snape doesn't have any "special" days
where he is mean. I am still astonished about the fact that so many
people seem to accept Snape's teaching style without objection.


> Lycanthropy, in JKR's world, is an incurable, painful, dangerous,
> socially stigmatizing, potentially life-threatening disease, 
certainly
> life-potential-limiting thing.


I agree. But what Snape does to Neville certainly won't help to make
him gain more self-regard. Neville's life is miserable because he is
terrified all the time, mainly because of Snape when he is at 
Hogwarts. How do you justify that?

Just my 2 cents.
Monika 8-)






From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Feb  9 08:24:26 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:24:26 -0000
Subject: SHIP: H/H & other thoughts
In-Reply-To: <3A7C3D47.635ED4A5@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9609fq+6b1q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11924

Hi all.  Sorry for such a delayed reply, Penny.  I'm miles behind...

Penny wrote:
> I think other people have asked the same basic question: 
what "spark" is there between H & H in the canon that would support a 
future pairing?
> The intimation seems to be that they are "boring" together & not 
very entertaining.
> 
> I think again, it really boils down to how one views relationships 
in "real life."  I'm not sure anyone who knows us would look at my 
husband and me and say, "Wow!  They've really got a *spark* in their
> relationship."  I do think, though, that people who know us would 
look at us and say, "They are so happy.  They've got a good solid
> relationship and are obviously meant to be."<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I do agree that this theory has a lot of merit.  I know many couples 
who I would consider well-matched, and of course, they all have their 
spats, bickering, etc.

Penny: 
> Point being: I'm not convinced that the only road to romantic 
happiness & compatibility (and yes, passion) requires fireworks and 
sparks.  In fact, the fireworks and sparks thing just wouldn't have 
suited *my* personality at all.  <g>  My husband and I were good 
friends for quite awhile before our relationship turned to romance.  
It just evolved into the romantic aspect.  It was probably always 
there under the surface, but we just didn't act on it for 
awhile.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I certainly agree, there are many roads to romantic happiness, etc.  
The constant bickering, etc., is exhausting, no question.  Do I 
remember correctly, did you say you and your husband either rarely, 
or have never really had any really big fights?  (Oy, I'm having such 
trouble keeping up... <g>)  As far as any couples I know, the really 
big fights are not regular occurrences, but back and forth bickering 
is faiely regular.  Not anything big that would cause serious damage 
to the relationship; just the day-to-day annoyances of life.  I see 
R/H more in this manner.

Penny:
> That's how I can see H/H.
> They have a solid friendship, common interests and lots of other 
great things, even if there's no classic "spark" in the tradition of 
romantic comedies.  I guess my perception is that some of you believe 
that sparks/bickering/tension = passion.  My take on it is that you 
can have *lots* of passion, even without the sparks & fireworks.  
<vbg> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hehheh, well, no truer testimony than from someone's who's been 
there, eh?  I don't think the arguing, etc., equals passion, 
necessarily, but often it does seem to accompany it.  I think it's 
more to do with both people having and expressing strong feelings and 
opinions.  Of course, you can have this without the fireworks, too, 
but just as often successful relationships include this.  With H & H, 
though, I see the solid friendship, but not the common interests so 
much.  Seems Ron and Harry have far more common interests than 
Hermione with either guy... 
 
Penny:
> I don't imagine R/H *always* bickering.  But, they bicker & spat 
back & forth more than I would care to.  It is admittedly 
the "defining" characteristic of their relationship in my mind.  I 
don't necessarily see them having loads of "fun," like some of the 
R/H types see.  They seem to me to disagree fairly often.  For 
example -- the giants and the house elves.  Ron has a typical "grew 
up in the wizarding world" view of house elves & the giants.  
Hermione has a totally different perspective.  It just seems like 
there are so many issues of this nature that would make their pairing 
hard to sustain over the long haul.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Actually, when I think of R/H being more 'fun', I mean for me as a 
reader.  As to the giants and the house elves, perhaps an alternative 
way to see their opposing veiwpoints is that they both can learn a 
lot from the other.
 
Penny:
> I like romantic comedies, but I don't see them as particularly
> realistic.  I just don't honestly know that many people who fall 
into that category.  They are funny and entertaining .... but in my 
mind, they are barely distinguishable from fantasy.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, admittedly, I don't know any real-life couples who are 
significantly similar to movie couples.  From what I've seen and 
know, bickering seems to be part of almost any relationship, though.  
Sort of the 'Harry met Sally' thing; look how nice their relationship 
ended up.  I have heard of couples who say they both got on each 
other's nerves when they first met, then ended up in love.  It 
happens how it happens, I guess.
 
Penny: 
> Anyway .... that's just my take on it.  I really do think it's just 
a matter of how each individual approaches romantic relationships in 
their own life -- it colors your perception of what would make the 
characters most happy.  So many of us on both sides of the fence 
identify with Hermione, but we just disagree about what the 
right "type" of romantic relationship is best for her.<<<<<<<<<<<<

True.  I suppose I like that she's so independent and strong as a 
person.  Someone like that may just as likely seek out a relationship 
with someone who doesn't agree on every issue (kind of would keep her 
on her toes, you know?), as they would seek out a like-minded 
partner.  Radically different beliefs are usually quite difficult to 
overcome, but as they're still only kids, their opinions are still 
forming.  I can see R/H having a nice balancing effect on each other.

Penny:
> As for imagining how they might be in a future pairing, I don't 
know if you're one of those who avoids fanfic at all costs, but give 
PoU a try.  I know several people have said that they liked PoU but 
still didn't "believe" in the H/H pairing.  That's fair -- but 
personally, PoU is exactly what I imagine a future H/H pairing could 
be like.  But, to each his own.  <g>  If you *haven't* read it and 
are interested in seeing what a future H/H pairing might look like, I 
recommend it.
> 
> Penny

Hehheh, ooooo, the H/H bible...<eg>  Actually, I've printed it out, 
but have held off reading it.  I've been trying to hold out 'til my 
HP jones gets the best of me.  Guess I'll give in before long...

Kelley 




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Feb  9 08:39:19 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:39:19 -0000
Subject: Snape's sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <95i8r6+lpgp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <960abn+lhdi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11925

Mike wrote:
> This just occurred to me: (I had never even THOUGHT of this before, 
> but now I'm totally convinced.) Snape is going to die for Harry. At 
> the beginning, V will accept him back, begrudgingly, and sort of 
> half-trust him. Then V will find out that Snape is a spy, and 
instead of killing him, begin to use him. Snape will eventually find 
out he's being used, find out that it's put Harry in danger, and 
stand up to V (and die). So Snape will die for Harry. I can't believe 
I never thought of that before. I don't think he will "die for Harry 
Potter", but I can totally see Snape "dying to defeat the Dark Lord", 
and in order to do that, I think he will recognize that he will have 
to die for Harry Potter.
> -Mike<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Oooh, VERY convincing theory, Mike.  I'm a Snape-fan, and I had 
considered he might be one we'll lose by the end, but I had never 
made any further attempt to flesh this thought out.  I hate to lose 
him, but you've made quite a compelling argument.  Very intriguing, 
and what a great twist to throw to those Snape-haters, canon and 
fans, alike...

Kelley




From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Fri Feb  9 08:51:59 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:51:59 +0100
Subject: James Potter's house - and Snape
References: <95v13i+mank@eGroups.com> <3A836B8F.C7B5731F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c09275$ee2672e0$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 11926

Hello,

Sorry I will not be quoting your posts, I am not experienced in answering to
many messages at one go.

Let me say that I don't believe that James Potter was a Slytherin, because:
- In PS/SS Hagrid wouldn't be telling Harry all those bad things about
Slytherin if it was James's old House.
- In PoA Black said that Snape was a member of a gang of Slytherins. It
doesn't sound like he was talking about his own House.
- From what Dumbledore says, Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry to Slytherin
because of his "post-curse" connections with Voldemort. Harry, however, is a
true Gryffindor, because otherwise he wouldn't be able to get Gryffindor's
sword.
- I *absolutely* refuse to belive that Severus Snape could be so thick that
he wouldn't realise what Lupin's symptoms mean after sleeping in the same
dormitory for six years! Howgh!

But, wait... is it ever stated that Snape and the Marauders were in the same
year? Isn't it possible that Snape was in fact a year younger? If he was, it
would explain why he was stressing so much that he was in sixth year at the
time of Black's famous "joke". Anyway, I think he would get wind of things
earlier if they were in the same house, and shared common room.

Monika Z.
(The Snape fan)




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Feb  9 08:49:12 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:49:12 -0000
Subject: Snapes spy status
In-Reply-To: <95ial5+8sbt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <960au8+e2nq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11927

I wrote:
> > Remind me, when was Snape exposed as Dumble's 'valuable spy', at 
> > least to anyone who's not a good guy?  I'm thinking that no DEs 
> know that Snape was working for Dumble.
> 
>Dai wrote:
> During Karkarofs trial in the pensieve scene in GoF. Dumbledore 
> announces it in the court when Karkarof is being tried. I find it 
> unlikely that the bad guys will not have known about this. These 
> trials would obviously have been well publicised (by Rita Skeeta 
for example, who was at Ludo Bagmans trial) and the reports would 
most likely have been front page of the Daily Prophet continually.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Thanks Dai, and Rita, who reminded me of this same incident as well.  
This makes me think that Snape will assume the tact of telling Vold 
that he was deceiving Dumble, and all the while was really still 
faithful to Vold, then...

Kelley  




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Feb  9 08:56:29 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:56:29 -0000
Subject: Bad Ron?
In-Reply-To: <200102041945.f14JjxC03270@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <960bbt+bvvb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11928

> Kelley wrote:
> >My thoughts about Ron going bad:  I agree with Kathy's points about
> >Ron's love for his friends.  Just for that, I don't believe he 
would betray Harry.  I do worry this though:  Ron is not good at 
resisting Imperius.  (Already see where I'm going? <g>)  What if he's
> >controlled to betray, and it's under the guise of him doing it for
> >power, glory, and riches?  Could be convincing enough that H and H 
et al believe it, at least for a while.  They would think he'd really
> >gone over, because his 'reasons' would be things he's said many 
times he'd like to have (money, what he saw in Erised, etc.).  
Eventually, Herm or Harry would remember how bad Ron is at fighting 
Imperius, and realize that is what's going on.  All the factors in 
this theory are things we've already been introduced to...  Thoughts 
here?>>>>
> 
>Kathy wrote:
> You have a very good point, Kelley.  The thought still pains me, 
but you have a very good point.  And it strikes me that if this were 
the case, we maybe getting set up for it through Sirius and Remus 
each apparently being willing to believe the other was the spy who 
betrayed James and Lily.  Presumably there were "reasons" each could 
think of for the other to go bad too.  But, they were also willing to 
believe the truth when confronted with it because they knew each 
other so well.  I think this is probably the most convincing 
> theory I have heard on this topic, because, as you say, the 
elements are already there.  But, oh, the idea still gives me a 
tummyache...
> 
> Kathy
> AKA Elanor Gamgee<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Oh, I am so with you there, Kathy.  And, you know, I didn't even 
consider the Remus/Sirius angle.  Even more convincing that this 
might happen.  Well, we can hope it turns out well; look how loved 
Sirius is now, at least among the trio and the fans...

Kelley 




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Feb  9 09:35:33 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:35:33 -0000
Subject: Characterization (was Re: Is Draco Redeemable?)
In-Reply-To: <95hlfb+v0a8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <960dl5+kofv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11929

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
>Teek wrote:
>JKR loves throwing us for curves like that - on first
> > read, did any of you see Quirrel, or Moody, as evil? There's no
> > definite proof that she's not planning something of the sort over 
> the course of the next 3 books.
> > 
> Naama wrote: 
> I'm not exactly arguing against what you wrote, Teek, more using it 
> as a starting point for something I've been thinking about recently.
> It seems that there's a general agreement that JKR "loves throwing 
us for curves". That she's a master of surprises and plot twists. With
> all my love for the books, I disagree with this estimation. 
> Personally, I find the mysteries plots rather weak and persuasive. 
> I've posted here not long ago my reservations about the GoF 
solution, so I won't repeat that. My point here is that all the 
twists (that I can think of) are related to the mystery plots only. 
They are, to my mind, rather obviously devices that serve the mystery 
plot. They are not organically connected to the overall fabric. 
Except for characters directly needed for the mystery plots, all 
other characters are perfectly stable. The first impression we have 
of them is pretty much who they continue to be. In Harry and Draco's 
first meeting, Draco seems to be a spoiled, snobbish, unpleasant brat 
and he continues to be exactly that, only more so. The same goes for 
> every character I can think of - Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, 
> Hermione, Ron, the Weasleys... Crabb, Goyle (again, except for the 
> mystery characters - Quirrel, Moody, Scabbers..). 
> Hmmm.. whats my point, you ask? I think I'm trying to say the JKR 
is writing books, that from the characterization aspect, are 
> straightforward really. In fact, in this sense I do agree that they 
> are definitely children literature <hastily entering anti-nuclear 
> shelter>.
> 
> One further remark - what I have said is very general and mostly a 
> matter of impression. *Please* do not reply by simply adducing 
> examples to the contrary. Its very unpersuasive. I can do that by 
> myself - Snape is not a simple character and there has been some 
> shift of perception regarding him. So what? The question is, does 
my argument *generally* hold or not.
> 
> Naama

Hi Naama.  I think your argument is very accurate.  This gets to 
another point I had as an amorphous impression but couldn't 
articulate.  Cassie and I were discussing JKR's use or not of cliches 
in regard to character archetypes.  Perhaps your point is more what I 
had in mind.  Rather than saying the characters are cliched, static 
seems to get more to the heart of the matter.  Seems to be why Snape 
is such a fascinating character, at any rate.  As an aside to this, I 
look forward to seeing Dumble's cold, hard, strength which was only 
hinted at in GoF...

Kelley  




From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Fri Feb  9 10:28:08 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:28:08 -0000
Subject: More Casting News - Ginny Weasley etc (Was Casting:Draco)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010208131649.05ef12b0@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <960gno+mbps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11930

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" <bkdelong at p...> wrote:
> Hi all -
> 
> I posted some new casting news today:
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_04_archive.html#2294504
> 
> New stuff includes Ginny Weasley and some extras as well as 
confirming 
> Neville Longbottom and Dean Thomas.

Thanks for the info, I've been wondering what they were doing about 
Ginny. I'm posting that info on the Fandom board, hope that's OK.

Keith




From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Fri Feb  9 10:31:12 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:31:12 -0000
Subject: Dating at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <3A823954.98EB078A@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <960gtg+qi82@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11931

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> I wonder what the Music committee would do about music (the Three
> Broomsticks booked a  live band). Is there such a thing as recorded
> music in the wizarding world? Do they save up their pennies, I mean
> Knuds, to hire a live band? Or allow an amateur band of students to
> practise on their guests?
> 

Hippogriffs Ate My Baby? :-)

Keith




From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Fri Feb  9 10:42:50 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:42:50 -0000
Subject: Interview with HP screenwriter
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEKFDCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <960hja+cc69@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11932

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon.branford at h...> wrote:
> So are we meant to be reassured by a scriptwriter who had to have 
part of
> his potential script changed because he had not stayed close enough 
to the
> books and had managed to add in something that was impossible? It 
is things
> like this that are making me more concerned about the movie.

I don't think he'd made that many changes...and JKR likes the script 
and is clearly making sure the story doesn't get mucked up.
> 
> The interviewer came across as an idiot (in my opinion) and seemed 
to think
> that we wanted his comments on all topics. He seems to say more 
than the
> interviewee does.

Hear hear! The interviewer was not much good.





From alw at wilsonllp.com  Fri Feb  9 13:12:32 2001
From: alw at wilsonllp.com (Amy)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:12:32 -0500
Subject: Lucius Malfoy (was Houses...)
References: <95vcm7+aie8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003901c09299$f6a7d660$3d1fa8c0@chamblee>

No: HPFGUIDX 11933


--This could be an explanation I guess. It seems to be generally 
accepted however that Lucius was older than the Marauders and Snape. 
More likely he and Arthur Weasely are contemperaries.

Why is it generally accepted that Lucius is older than the Marauders and Snape and that he and Arthur are contemporaries?  I can see him being a few years older than the Marauders and I can see Snape being a year or two younger than the Marauders, but I can't seem to wrap my mind around Lucius being as old as Arthur and Molly...who are arguably at least 6 (probably more like 8) years older than the Marauders.  (I've always gotten the impression that Arthur and Molly definitely were not at Hogwarts when the Marauders were).  From what we've seen in the books so far, Draco is an only child...who is the same age as Harry.  I guess Lucius could have gotten married later in life and then waited to have kids, but for some reason that just doesn't work for me.

Amy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rlpenar at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 14:18:22 2001
From: rlpenar at yahoo.com (rlpenar at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:18:22 -0000
Subject: Lucius Malfoy (was Houses...)
In-Reply-To: <003901c09299$f6a7d660$3d1fa8c0@chamblee>
Message-ID: <960u7e+3kna@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11934

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy" <alw at w...> wrote:
> 
> --This could be an explanation I guess. It seems to be generally 
> accepted however that Lucius was older than the Marauders and 
Snape. 
> More likely he and Arthur Weasely are contemperaries.
> 
> Why is it generally accepted that Lucius is older than the 
Marauders and Snape and that he and Arthur are contemporaries?  
<snip> 

> Amy
> 
I agree Amy, becuase if Lucius and Snape were in school around the 
same time, then it doeesn't make sense that in CoS Draco says that he 
will tell his father that Snape is the best teacher - Snape and 
Lucius would already know each other.

Becky




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Fri Feb  9 12:58:32 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:58:32 -0000
Subject: Boarding school timetables.( Was re : Dances ) 
References: <3A837BBC.B9B865C2@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <005a01c092a4$fcb84340$983d7bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 11935

>
> Should I understand that to mean that students at boarding school are
> responsible for creating their own entertainments?
>
Well, you've stumped me there ! I think so. In my experience, full time
boarding is getting rarer. Kids tend to board weekly. At weekends, most
boarding schools devote part or all of Saturday to sport. And they
usually have some academic lessons on Saturday Mornings. I did my A
levels at such a school as a day pupil and it meant that a couple of
weekday afternoons were available for other things like army cadet
training or other voluntary stuff. The only disadvantages were that it
meant that I did a six day week getting up at half six  and not getting
home until half five at night. Plus studying for three A levels ( team
taught by three teachers each = 9 or more pieces of work to do per
week...) meant that even if I'd boarded ( saving 2 hours travelling ) I
doubt that I would have had the energy for dancing or any other social
activity !

Maybe John would be better placed to comment......?

Michelle




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  9 14:38:29 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:38:29 -0000
Subject: SHIP: H, H, R, and SPEW
In-Reply-To: <3A7C3D47.635ED4A5@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <960vd5+8qqi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11936



Penny wrote:

>They seem to me to disagree fairly often.  For 
>example -- the giants and the house elves.  Ron has a typical "grew 
>up in the wizarding world" view of house elves & the giants. 

This does seem like a major disagreement to me, probably because my 
heart is completely with Hermione.  I just love that she's developed a 
social conscience, clumsy and self-righteous though it is.   When she 
pesters people with "do you know that your beds are made by slaves?!" 
I want to cheer.  She's doing what I sometimes want to do, but don't 
because I don't actually have the guts (or you could charitably say, 
the social-gracelessness) to walk up to people and say "Do you by 
any chance know how many foxes died by anal electrocution to make that 
coat?" or "Those jeans were sewn by a 12-year-old girl in a 
maquiladora, weren't they?  Hmmm..."

But if you ask me, in GF Harry is as bad as Ron on the subject of 
house-elves--maybe he seems even less sympathetic to me because we 
know what's in his head, and there is NO twinge of guilt or "maybe 
Hermione has a point" there, at least as far as we've been told.  He 
just doesn't get it at all, something that disappoints me after all 
his sympathy for Dobby in CS.

So, H/H ten years later (screen waves and blurs into . . . )

Harry and Hermione in the kitchen.  Harry reading the Daily Prophet 
and scarfing down toast.  Hermione in a snit, slamming dishes in the 
sink.

Harry (sighs): Okay, what's up?

Hermione: Nothing.  Nothing.  There are NO dishes piled up from last 
night's dinner that was cooked by me so that SOMEONE ELSE was supposed 
to wash up.

Harry: Honey, I promise, I'll get to them after breakfast.  (looking 
at watch)  Uh, I mean after work.  Look, you know I was really tired 
last night.

Hermione: Oh, and I wasn't.  Well, maybe I don't spend my day SAVING 
THE WORLD FROM EVIL but I do have responsibilities, you know!  Believe 
it or not, I have other things to do besides washing the dishes!

Harry: Hermione, we've been over this a hundred times.  I'm a busy 
person, you're a busy person.  We don't have a hell of a lot of time 
for housework.  Why don't we get a house-elf?  

Hermione: And just how are we going to afford to pay this house-elf?

Harry (knowing he shouldn't say this, but): We don't have to pay them. 
 They'll work for free.  They'd consider it an honor.

Hermione: I can't believe you are seriously suggesting that we get a 
SLAVE.  That's what you're talking about, you know, slave labor in our 
house!  Jesus, Harry, sometimes I feel like you don't know me at 
all...

(mercifully fade to black)

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------
Many people said he hadn't noticed he was dead.
         --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Feb  9 14:50:57 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 9 Feb 2001 06:50:57 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James Potter's house - and Snape
Message-ID: <20010209145057.21126.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11937

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010209/562e3658/attachment.ksh>

From lmrourke at snet.net  Fri Feb  9 15:40:14 2001
From: lmrourke at snet.net (Lisa Rourke)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:40:14 -0500
Subject: James Potter's House and  Snape --Same Year Question
Message-ID: <001c01c092ae$9ba94360$1d373ccc@krass>

No: HPFGUIDX 11938

Monika wrote:But, wait... is it ever stated that Snape and the Marauders
were in the same
year? Isn't it possible that Snape was in fact a year younger?

In PoA (American edition)page 357 Lupin says of Snape "we were in the same
year, you know, and we -er- didn't like each other very much."  So I assume
that all of the Marauders were in the same year as well as Snape.

Lisa




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 15:45:08 2001
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (neptune)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Writing to Jo
Message-ID: <20010209154508.25506.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11939

Has anyone here written to Jo Rowling? I'm currently thinking about a letter but
not sure what to write. I'm very intimidated about writing to celebrities because I
would hate to get the same message again and again and again. If you have written,
how long did it take for a response? 

From,

Anake


=====
"There's no way out of here. It'll be dark soon. There is no way out of here," --Torgo, Manos: The Hands of Fate (1966)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From bkdelong at pobox.com  Fri Feb  9 15:47:29 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:47:29 -0500
Subject: More Casting News - Ginny Weasley etc (Was Casting:Draco)
In-Reply-To: <960gno+mbps@eGroups.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010208131649.05ef12b0@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010209104520.051301a0@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11940

At 10:28 AM 02/09/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Thanks for the info, I've been wondering what they were doing about
>Ginny. I'm posting that info on the Fandom board, hope that's OK.

Of course. I'd appreciate it if you link to me, though :) It's a pain in 
the rear to come across any unique casting information as Warner Bros. has 
a brick wall up and isn't telling anyone anything....the only way us fan 
sites are getting the info is by being persistent and creative in how we 
contact talent agencies, casting companies, and get ahold of second-hand 
call sheets from the movie from inside sources. Sheesh.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 16:06:57 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:06:57 -0000
Subject: Lucius Malfoy (was Houses...)
In-Reply-To: <003901c09299$f6a7d660$3d1fa8c0@chamblee>
Message-ID: <9614j1+dq1q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11941

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy" <alw at w...> wrote:
> 
> --This could be an explanation I guess. It seems to be generally 
> accepted however that Lucius was older than the Marauders and Snape. 
> More likely he and Arthur Weasely are contemperaries.
> 
> Why is it generally accepted that Lucius is older than the Marauders 
>and Snape and that he and Arthur are contemporaries?  I can see him 
>being a few years older than the Marauders and I can see Snape being 
>a year or two younger than the Marauders, but I can't seem to wrap my 
>mind around Lucius being as old as Arthur and Molly...who are 
>arguably at least 6 (probably more like 8) years older than the 
>Marauders.  

I think Arthur and Molly are much older than the Marauders - more than 
8 years, at least.  They were at Hogwarts before Hagrid was made 
gamekeeper, and that was 50 years ago (even if Hagrid was only the 
assistant for some time, it still makes me think they were at Hogwarts  
way earlier than the Marauders).

>(I've always gotten the impression that Arthur and Molly definitely 
>were not at Hogwarts when the Marauders were).  From what we've seen 
>in the books so far, Draco is an only child...who is the same age as 
>Harry.  I guess Lucius could have gotten married later in life and 
>then waited to have kids, but for some reason that just doesn't work 
>for me.

I've been thinking about this - I always got the impression that 
Lucius was closer Arthur and Molly's age as well (and as I mentioned, 
I think they are quite a few years older than the Marauders), and I 
hadn't had any particular reason in my mind as to why, but now I'm 
thinking about it, there are afew reasons that I've gotten that 
impression:

-Lucius seems to not only have been a Death Eater, but a rather 
high-ranking one, which makes me think he was an adult from the 
beginning of Voldemort's reign, whereas the Marauders and Snape were 
still at Hogwarts.

-Lucius is a very influential wizard with the Ministry, the board of 
Hogwarts (previously, at least), and seemingly all over the place.  
Those who are contemporaries of the Marauders don't seem to have had 
the time to climb the ranks of power and influence quite that high.  
All of the department heads seem to be around Arthur's age or older, 
although that, too, is just an impression.

-He and Arthur have quite a contentious relationship.  Arthur is a 
very even-tempered person, as far as I can tell, and leaves emotional 
outbursts to his beloved Molly most of the time.  I can't imagine 
someone younger and less experienced than Arthur driving him to such 
extremes as we saw in CoS.  There seems to be a long history between 
them.

None of the above are evidence, but they explain why I have the 
impression that I do.  And as for Draco being Harry's age, I don't 
have a problem with that.  Lucius and Narcissa are fairly selfish and 
vain.  I kinda think they put off having a child until it occurred to 
them that they'd better get around to producing an heir to carry on 
the family name.  We know that it's not at all unusual for wizards and 
witches to have children at the age that they would have been if they 
are Arthur and Molly's age (after all, Ron's Draco's age too, and 
Ginny's even younger), so there's no reason that they should have felt 
the need to rush.  I imagine Narcissa was a socialite and didn't want 
to ruin her figure.  As she got older maybe more riffraff was showing 
up to the Death Eater parties, and she decided she didn't mind so 
much. 

It's all conjecture on my part, but it at least explains where the 
impression came from for me.

Kimberly




From nykteris at polbox.com  Fri Feb  9 16:59:05 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:59:05 +0100
Subject: Odp: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin/how to become a werewolf 
References: <95spn3+6j72@eGroups.com> <3A81F460.68BE2DB8@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <000e01c092b9$fc14cac0$e0604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 11942

I've recently read that Italians from Naples (any Italians from Naples in
this group? Sorry ;-)) believe that a man can become a werewolf by being
born on 24 th Dec. because it's disturbing the peace of the holly night. So,
who
of you is born that time? ;)))

Katarzyna








From nykteris at polbox.com  Fri Feb  9 17:00:40 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:00:40 +0100
Subject: Odp: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' name
References: <95qqj9+qfpl@eGroups.com> <3A8138ED.4D6B58AF@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <000f01c092b9$fcde3540$e0604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 11943

Severus and Sirius exist in Polish lexicon of names as Sewer and Syriusz.
BTW I've just heard about brothers Patapiusz (Patapius) and Symplicjusz
(Simplicius). Poor children (although I love pure Latin names)... 

Katarzyna    








From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  9 17:18:47 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:18:47 -0000
Subject: Patapiusz and Symplicjusz (was Sirius' name)
In-Reply-To: <000f01c092b9$fcde3540$e0604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <9618pn+1s3v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11944

Katarzyna wrote:

> Severus and Sirius exist in Polish lexicon of names as Sewer and 
Syriusz.
> BTW I've just heard about brothers Patapiusz (Patapius) and 
Symplicjusz
> (Simplicius). 

Who are these brothers in English?  Are these HP characters or did I 
miss a reference?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
  "Do you mean to tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that
this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" 
  Harry thought this was going a bit far. 
                               -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From john at walton.to  Fri Feb  9 17:20:36 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:20:36 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Boarding school timetables
In-Reply-To: <005a01c092a4$fcb84340$983d7bd5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <B6A9D764.B91C%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 11945

::pops up from amid the rubble from where the 20-story tower block of Real
Life has had an argument with the expert demolition engineer of University
Timetables::

Hiya.

> Well, you've stumped me there ! I think so. In my experience, full time
> boarding is getting rarer. Kids tend to board weekly.

Which is perhaps why, at my school, there was no such thing as a weekly
boarder. It was either day boy (or girl) or boarder. I kinda liked this --
it meant that there was usually someone around at the weekend. Of course, my
fantastic housemaster didn't stick to the "three leave weekends a term"
rule, but some did, which is a bit silly, IMHO.

> At weekends, most boarding schools devote part or all of Saturday to sport.
> And they usually have some academic lessons on Saturday Mornings.

::shudders:: Yeah. Saturday mornings were full of lessons, followed by
sports matches. Ooh, fun. "No, please don't hit me in the shins with that
stick--Ow."

> I did my A levels at such a school as a day pupil and it meant that a couple
> of weekday afternoons were available for other things like army cadet training
> or other voluntary stuff.

Actually, we had Activities periods four afternoons a week, with Wednesday
being an entire afternoon of Activities. "Activities" were anything that
weren't official mandatory sports -- fencing, archery, that sort of thing.
For us non-sporties, there were things like Choir, Bands, Debating, Model
UN, Amnesty International, and periods where you could sign up to work in
the computer room. Oh, and CCF (Combined Cadet Force) or Community Service
was on Friday afternoons. Being a musician, I did the Military/Concert band
instead. Much more sensible...

The younger years had to fill all but one activity period, which meant that
there were always masses of horrible smelly 13-year-olds lounging around the
computer room in the afternoons, which meant that I had to do all my
emailing in the mornings. What a trial!

> The only disadvantages were that it meant that I did a six day week getting up
> at half six  and not getting home until half five at night.

Ach, y'should've been a boarder :)

> Plus studying for three A levels ( team
> taught by three teachers each = 9 or more pieces of work to do per
> week...) meant that even if I'd boarded ( saving 2 hours travelling ) I
> doubt that I would have had the energy for dancing or any other social
> activity !

Pshaw! We all had energy to keep us going throughout the day -- and well
into the night. I have a friend who prided himself on the fact that he only
needed four hours of sleep a night. I, on the other hand, made do with
eight.

Of course, his lack of sleep (and my non-lack of sleep :D) might have had
something to do with the girls' school only ten minutes' walk away. Y'never
know.

Weekends in school were fun -- catching up on sleep was one great part, but
also the opportunity to relax by reading something other than a schoolbook
was useful.

Oh, and incidentally -- this topic would go great on the new HPFGU-OTChatter
list! ::subtle hint::

Feel free to shoot back with any more questions :)

--John, Official Boarding School Guy

________________________________________________

John "Purple Meany" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| Group Welcome Message located at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+welcomemessage.txt
=| Sing the Song of Time!
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/?action=story-read&storyid=111044

Remember: socks then shoes.
________________________________________________




From gstrijker at freeler.nl  Fri Feb  9 17:29:05 2001
From: gstrijker at freeler.nl (Riet Strijker)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:29:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Welcome back, Mr.Potter
References: <95qqj9+qfpl@eGroups.com> <3A8138ED.4D6B58AF@alumni.upenn.edu> <000f01c092b9$fcde3540$e0604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <000c01c092be$0c565580$69d41ad4@ikke>

No: HPFGUIDX 11946

Hello all,
I've been lurking for quite a while, but I have a question, ever since I
read PS for the first time.
In PS, page 54 (UK edition) Harry goes for the first time to the Leaky
Cauldron with Hagrid. Tom the barman greets him with the words and I quote:
"Bless my soul," whispered the old barman. "Harry Potter ... what an
honour."
....."Welcome back, Mr Potter, welcome back."
Does anybody know why Tom says "Welcome back", instead of just a hearty
"Welcome"?
Just curious.
Hastily crawling back into lurkdom now...
Riet





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  9 17:30:44 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:30:44 -0000
Subject: Like A Veela (filk)
Message-ID: <9619g4+qlqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11947

Like a Veela
a filk by Pippin 
to the tune of Madonna's Like A Virgin

dedicated to Caius Marcus, with apologies


RON
I walked past
And a blast 
of that sex appeal knocked me on my ...tail
And she made  me feel
Yeah, she made me feel
So totally male.

I was going to stay pure
But one purr
from Miss Delacour
And my eyes fell out
And my eyes fell out
And rolled on the floor

HERMIONE 
Like a Veela
She's got your head in a whirl
Like a Veela
And you 've never even noticed  
That I'm a girl.

RON
Now I'm beat, incomplete
I've been had, I am sad and blue
But as you are a girl
Guess you are a girl 
Reckon I'll go with you.

You're a female
I just noticed for the very first time
You're a female
With your teeth straight, and  your hair up
You'd look fine.

oooh, ooh,ooh

HERMIONE
You're too late
Gotta date
You can stroll
With your favorite troll
Cause I've found a guy
Yeah, I've found a guy
Who's way cooler  than you

(Enter Krum)

KRUM (to Hermione)
Somevun veall-a
Somevun who cares about you
You vill be glad for somevun older
Ven Der Volder
Is after you.

Oh,oh,oh,  Her-my-oh-ninny
Ooh, baby
Did I get your name right
for the very first time?





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Feb  9 17:52:00 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:52:00 -0000
Subject: Welcome back, Mr.Potter
In-Reply-To: <000c01c092be$0c565580$69d41ad4@ikke>
Message-ID: <961ao0+ec8b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11948

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Riet Strijker" <gstrijker at f...> wrote:
> Hello all,
> I've been lurking for quite a while, but I have a question, ever 
since I
> read PS for the first time.
> In PS, page 54 (UK edition) Harry goes for the first time to the 
Leaky
> Cauldron with Hagrid. Tom the barman greets him with the words and 
I quote:
> "Bless my soul," whispered the old barman. "Harry Potter ... what an
> honour."
> ....."Welcome back, Mr Potter, welcome back."
> Does anybody know why Tom says "Welcome back", instead of just a 
hearty
> "Welcome"?
> Just curious.
> Hastily crawling back into lurkdom now...
> Riet

Perhaps Lily and James used to bring Harry to the Leaky Cauldron when 
he was a baby? Or the greeting was Tom's way of acknowledging Harry's 
return to the wizarding world.

:-)Milz




From bbennett at joymail.com  Fri Feb  9 18:16:12 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:16:12 -0000
Subject: PoU Harry and the spotlight
In-Reply-To: <v02140b7eb6a93d28164b@[140.254.113.133]>
Message-ID: <961c5d+sqau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11949

Lori wrote:

> The comments regarding PoU Harry enjoying the spotlight made me 
>think, and I always love comments that make me do that.

Your response made me think as well, so I went back and looked at PoU 
again to see what specifically what I had in mind when I responded to 
Kathy. I wanted to include all of your response, though, so please 
scroll down and I'll continue my post there.

> It made me think about whether he does or not.  So I'm considering 
>evidence about Harry vis a vis international attention in PoU...and 
>forgive me if I miss some points you're thinking of, even though I 
>wrote the damned thing it's easy for me to forget details.
 
> 1.  Harry works as an undercover agent and doesn't tell anyone what 
>he does.
> 2.  Harry and Hermione go out and attract attention while swing
> dancing...but that's just among Muggles.
> 3.  Harry is asked to speak at the Friends and Former Pupils Gala by
> Sirius...however it's seen that his public speaking skills are 
>rusty and so implies he doesn't do it a lot.
> 4.  Harry and Hermione reluctantly grant an interview to the Daily 
>Prophet about their relationship.  >This would have been news no 
>matter what he did.

> I'm not sure I've portrayed Harry as enjoying the spotlight, but 
>neither have I described him actively >avoiding it.  Honestly, I 
>haven't given it much thought in the course of the stories.
> 
> They way I *think* of it (which may or may not be the way it comes 
>across on the page) is that Harry isn't as shy as he was at 14, 
>after all he's more mature and has had plenty of time to get used to 
>his fame.  I don't see him as a glory hound but I don't see him 
>being reclusive.  I think he would accept his role in the wizarding 
>world and the little foibles that go with it.
> 
> Comments?
> Lori

OK. 

I had to take one of those Myers Briggs Type Indicator tests the 
other day for work, and as I was listening to the results and what 
they mean, my mind started to drift and I began thinking of Harry and 
friends (stop laughing, people, I know I'm not the only one who does 
this). I see canon Harry as inherently introverted. It seems it's in 
his nature to direct things inward. Compare this to Ron, who is vocal 
on just about anything (the instructor said "If you don't know what's 
on an extrovert's mind, you aren't listening, and if you don't know 
what's on an introvert's mind, you haven't asked").  

To me, your Harry reads as introverted (this doesn't necessarily 
suggests a reclusive nature, although recluses are almost always 
typed as introverts -  I like your idea that as Harry ages, he 
becomes less shy and more able to handle himself in the wizarding 
world. I think this comes across in your story). Harry conceals his 
profession (it doesn't seem as if hiding this is a difficult task for 
him, it's in his nature to keep things private); he and Hermione 
become good at swing dancing (a characterization twist that I loved, 
by the way ? I'd was in the midst of lessons when I started reading 
your story), but the purpose seemed to be for enjoyment rather than 
showing off); he seems taken aback at being asked to speak at the 
Friends and Former Pupils Gala; and the interview he granted was 
indeed reluctantly, and out of necessity. 

All of these characterization traits fit in with how I see Harry, and 
reading back over your story, I realized that my response to Kathy 
(Harry seemed to enjoy the spotlight; seeming to have characteristics 
in common with Ron) came from a small section in the last chapter. 
It's when Harry announces that he and Hermione are going to get 
married. Here, I found that part and snipped it out ? I think I got 
everything relevant:


*****
She met Harry's eyes and made a small motion with her hands, sliding 
her thumb over her left ring finger...he realized that she had put 
the ring back in its proper place. No one appeared to have noticed 
except him. Harry's brow crinkled, the question in his eyes. Are you 
sure? She nodded. Harry smiled and cleared his throat. "Now," he went 
on. "Most of you know that for some time now I have been happily 
filling the role of Hermione's boyfriend, but I think you should all 
be aware that that's no longer the case." A shocked hush fell over 
the audience. People looked around uncertainly. Hermione bit her lip 
to hold back the chuckles. "I do believe that I must relinquish that 
title now that she's agreed to marry me." 

The uproar that went up at this statement made Hermione's eardrums 
hurt. She just stood there grinning out at them and might have done 
so for some time but for Harry, who upon dropping his bombshell had 
hopped down off the stage and strode through the tables to her side, 
whereupon he seized her about the waist, dipped her backwards in a 
dramatic lunge and kissed her like Rudolph Valentino. Hermione was 
struck by the absurdity of kissing Harry in the middle of the Great 
Hall at Hogwarts in front of hundreds of their friends and 
schoolmates, all of them whooping and cheering, but she didn't care. 
She kissed him back, and if anyone had dared mention that she was 
making a spectacle of herself she'd have told them to sod off. 

****

Harry's actions announcing their engagement and in kissing her so 
spectacularly read to me as being the actions of an extrovert, of 
someone who enjoys and seeks the limelight. Of course, both 
introverts and extroverts can have characteristics of the 
opposite "type", but his actions seem to be quite extroverted.  I 
remember thinking as I read this that it didn't seem in character 
with *your* Harry. It hit me funny. I don't mean to suggest that 
Harry wouldn't take the gathering as an opportunity to announce the 
engagement, but I imagined he would have been more discrete ? telling 
a few friends, letting it circulate around the room on it's own. I 
think this is where I saw Ron in your Harry ? I can imagine him doing 
this before I can see Harry doing it. 

I found this to be a momentary disappointment - after it happened, 
the characterization continued as I had perceived it in the rest of 
the story. I write with a R/H slant and tend to prefer R/H-slanted 
stories, but very much enjoyed Paradigm of Uncertainty, and I've 
recommended your story many times. Actually, I enjoyed it so much 
that I think that's why this struck me ? it was the only moment where 
I thought your Harry jumped out of characterization on himself. 

There ? I think that's it. If you have any comments back, I'd love to 
hear them. 

Best Regards,
B.






From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Fri Feb  9 18:22:00 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:22:00 -0000
Subject: Filk suggestions
Message-ID: <961cg8+jtc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11950

There's a lot of filks around at the moment and I'd love to write 
one, but I doubt it'd be very good. So here instead are some 
suggestions for more talented songwriters:

-Voldemort or Harry singing "Stayin' Alive" ("I will Survive" has 
already been done on ff.net)

-"Gryffindor Girls" (filk of "California Girls", sung by Ron? Harry? 
Sirius? All the Gryffindor guys? Could also be done for the other 
houses)

-"Close Every Door To Me" (from "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolour 
Dreamcoat", sung by Sirius)

-"I'm Just A Soul Whose Intentions Are Good" (Voldemort)

-"It's Not Unusual" (after Tom Jones, Ron singing to Hermione)

-"Hogwarts, Hogwarts" (sung by all the teachers and staff, filk 
of "New York, New York")

I'll post more if I think of them.

Keith




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Feb  9 18:48:38 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:48:38 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Oy, netiquette! (please read)
Message-ID: <961e27+2bbl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11951

NETIQUETTE TIPS

Harry Potter for Grown Ups is a very high-volume list; so it's 
important that members observe a few rules to help us all navigate 
through the ocean of messages (and avoid any passing ships if we so 
wish).  Members, new and old, are requested to observe certain rules 
of 'netiquette' and good practice, as outlined below. 

Bear in mind that the Moderators will be standing over you, flexing 
their wands and eyeing up that box of Howlers sitting in the corner 
of the cyber-office. You may get the odd advisory e-owl from us if we 
think you're getting a bit unruly, and if you're really, really 
naughty, you may end up being turned into a ferret and getting 
bounced.  Consider yourselves warned!  

[Moderators exit, stage left, cackling...]


***IF YOU HAVEN'T POSTED HERE BEFORE...

Read a few days' worth of messages before posting your own. You can 
do this either by "lurking" (reading messages, but not writing them) 
for a few days, or by going back through the most recent messages (a 
daunting task, with such an active group). This way, you'll get 
a "feel" for the group, and you can make sure you're not repeating 
something that has been posted recently by someone else. 

If you ask burning questions in your first post, make sure you 
indicate that extra content in the heading and don't just call it "Hi 
from a newbie!"


***USE/NOTE PREFIXES FOR SOME TOPICS

OT: Off-topic... if you must say something unrelated to the word of 
Harry Potter(but try to avoid it)

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few notices.' [Dumbledore, GoF, Chap 12] - Important announcements 
from the Moderators


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OT Politics:  Political opinion posts are banned for the moment.  OT
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us on this.


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Our message volume is sometimes very high, so one-line posts can push 
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If you are replying to a message, please indicate the name of the 
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Remember, also, that if you respond in a fresh post rather than using 
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***TAKE THE TIME TO PROOFREAD YOUR POSTS 

If you're used to forums where speed is important (chat rooms, role 
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***BE CONSIDERATE OF OTHER MEMBERS' FEELINGS 

If you disagree with someone's message, no matter how strongly, 
remember to respect the other person's right to his or her own 
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And never attack your fellow club members (name calling, personal 
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Thanks!! 

>From your Magical Moderators
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

Why not join our fledgling OT chatter group and get those off-topic 
moments off your chest without having to mention a Harry Potter 
character in the last sentence to keep it on-topic?  The scaffolding 
is still up, but you can join here: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter







From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Fri Feb  9 19:17:25 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:17:25 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Boarding school timetables
References: <B6A9D764.B91C%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <008901c092cc$f067ebe0$983d7bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 11952

> Oh, and incidentally -- this topic would go great on the new
HPFGU-OTChatter
> list! ::subtle hint::
OK Give me the URL and I'll join.....holding up her hands in horror at
just how many HP-related mailing lists she is joining to be on...

Michelle




From fred_and_george_weasley at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 20:03:55 2001
From: fred_and_george_weasley at yahoo.com (fred_and_george_weasley at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:03:55 -0000
Subject: (lyncanthropy) Character Summary: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <95t7dl+fo38@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <961ifb+erta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11953

I'll begin by saying I just made the jump over from the Yahoo! group.  
So I guess I'm technically a newbie....  But I wanted to jump back on 
this Lupin and werewolves discussion, it's really facinating and 
intelligent.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> First, the confessional part of the email -- if I could choose 
> between having Remus as my (hypothetical) child's teacher or as my 
> lover, I'd selfishly choose the latter.

Oh, thank you.  I have to say that I am completely and totally in love 
with Lupin.  (He's right up there with Hawkeye Pierce and Obe Wan 
Kenobe as far as fictional characters I would date).  All my other 
girl friends who are fans think that Sirius is the sexy one, no, not 
for me, Remus has far deeper problems than just jail, and he's still 
so gentle (well, most of the time anyway)....

Also, I would like to make a quick point about the word LYCANTHROPY.  
Lycanthropy refers to anyone who can assume ANY kind of animal form, 
not just werewolvism (alos, I think there might be a pyshosis called 
lycanthropy in which people believe themselves to be animals).  So 
technically, all the Animagi are lycanthropes.  

Stephanie  





From nykteris at polbox.com  Fri Feb  9 20:20:36 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris at polbox.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:20:36 -0000
Subject: Patapiusz and Symplicjusz (was Sirius' name)
In-Reply-To: <9618pn+1s3v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <961jek+2g1b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11954

It was me who missed the reference. I wanted to tell you that not 
only wizards choose strange names for their children. I've heard (but 
I don't know whether it's true) that two boys in Poland have been 
called by their Muggle (?) parents like that (Patapiusz and 
Sympllicjysz). 

Katarzyna 

  




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Feb  9 20:21:52 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:21:52 -0000
Subject: FF:A Surfeit of Curses - new chapter uploaded
Message-ID: <961jh0+uh5h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11955

Thanks to Cassie's magnificent Middle of the Night Beta of chapter 6 
of Surfeit of Curses (don't worry - it didn't delay her Chapter 12 
much!) I've been able to upload it to the net. 

It's up at HP_Paradise at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise/files/A%20Surfeit%20of%
20Curses/SurfeitofCurses6.htm

and on HP_Fanfiction at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction/files/A%20Surfeit%20of%
20Curses/SurfeitofCurses6.htm

Also, you can read/review at http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?
action=story-read&storyid=96654&chapter=6 

If you're new to the fic, it's an "alternative" perspective on 3rd & 
4th years, and with the next chapter, will be moving into the summer 
after 4th year & beyond (when I started it, I didn't realize just how 
much backstory I really had! I haven't really gotten to the Deep 
Mysterious Plot yet!)

Oh, and Simon Branford is in it. Twice. Sort of.
So's Rina Stewart. 
No Cassie this time, though. She's been busy editing Ebony's Daily 
Prophet...

Enjoy! (and feel free to review in multiple locations!)




From karenweise at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  9 20:51:02 2001
From: karenweise at hotmail.com (karenweise at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:51:02 -0000
Subject: How many kids are at Hogwarts??
Message-ID: <961l7m+225p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11956

I apologize ifthis has been discussed already, I'm rather new here.  
I've been thinking about how many students there are.  There are only 
5 boys and 3 girls in Harry's year.  Even assuming this is a smallish 
number (and normal should be 10 of each sex per year) or that JKR 
somehow hasn't mentioned the other boys and girls in Harry's year, 
that still only leaves you with 560 kids.  Am I missing something? 
Most schools for this range of ages are a lot bigger.  Help!

Karen




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  9 21:27:43 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:27:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's sacrifice
Message-ID: <F131N3qljWwY0VnkB4l00003d79@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11957




>From: "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's sacrifice
>Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:39:19 -0000
>
>Mike wrote:
> > This just occurred to me: (I had never even THOUGHT of this before,
> > but now I'm totally convinced.) Snape is going to die for Harry. At
> > the beginning, V will accept him back, begrudgingly, and sort of
> > half-trust him. Then V will find out that Snape is a spy, and
>instead of killing him, begin to use him. Snape will eventually find
>out he's being used, find out that it's put Harry in danger, and
>stand up to V (and die). So Snape will die for Harry. I can't believe
>I never thought of that before. I don't think he will "die for Harry
>Potter", but I can totally see Snape "dying to defeat the Dark Lord",
>and in order to do that, I think he will recognize that he will have
>to die for Harry Potter.
> > -Mike<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>Oooh, VERY convincing theory, Mike.  I'm a Snape-fan, and I had
>considered he might be one we'll lose by the end, but I had never
>made any further attempt to flesh this thought out.  I hate to lose
>him, but you've made quite a compelling argument.  Very intriguing,
>and what a great twist to throw to those Snape-haters, canon and
>fans, alike...
>
>Kelley
>

That is an interesting take on it.  I always envisioned Harry standing up 
for Snape and saving Snape's life (technically paying him back for that time 
in SS/PS when Snape saved Harry).   I have also had this preminition that 
the Dursleys will be endangered and Harry will save them with magic.  This 
way they won't think magic is so bad.  However, as many have told me, this 
is wishful thinking.

Signe

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From mschub at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 21:48:55 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 21:48:55 -0000
Subject: Yes, Virginia, there ARE 10 Gryffindor students in Harry's year!
In-Reply-To: <20010207143908.20046.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <961ok7+2mfa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11958

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jeralyn <voicelady at m...> wrote:

> 1 - Neville - Snape in Gran's dress and hat
> 2 - Parvati - the mummy
> 3 - Seamus - the banshee
> 4 - unidentified female student - rat
> 5 - unidentified female student - rattlesnake
> 6 - unidentified female student - eyeball
> 7 - Dean - hand
> 8 - Ron - spider

Sorry to bring this back up after so long, but I was just having an 
argument with a friend about this and it came up. So I looked up the 
passage (PoA, p. 137, US Edition) and I found a slight problem. The 
passage reads (starting with Seamus):

"Riddikulus!" shouted Seamus.
The banshee made a rasping noise and clutched her throat; her voice 
was gone.
Crack! The banshee turned into a rat, which chased its tail in a 
circle, then - crack! - became a rattlesnake, which slithered and 
writhed before - crack! - becoming a single, bloody eyeball.
"It's confused!" shouted Lupin. "We're getting there! Dean!"
Dean hurried forward...

Now, the way I interpreted this scene, based on Lupin's response, is 
that it was confused on its own. It wasn't being made turn into a 
rat/snake/eyeball, it turned into them on its own, as it was confused. 
Then Dean was called forward to add to its confusion. So I don't think 
that any of those three unidentified people really did much of 
anything besides watch. I believe the only 6 people actually addressed 
the boggart (Neville, Parvati, Seamus, Dean, Ron, Lupin, Neville).
-Mike




From rina at love-productions.com  Fri Feb  9 22:00:28 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:00:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yes, Virginia, there ARE 10 Gryffindor students in Harry's year!
Message-ID: <007001c092e3$bd864a20$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 11959

Mike wrote:

<<Now, the way I interpreted this scene, based on Lupin's response, is 
that it was confused on its own. It wasn't being made turn into a 
rat/snake/eyeball, it turned into them on its own, as it was confused. 
Then Dean was called forward to add to its confusion. So I don't think 
that any of those three unidentified people really did much of 
anything besides watch. I believe the only 6 people actually addressed 
the boggart (Neville, Parvati, Seamus, Dean, Ron, Lupin, Neville).
>>

Okay, I don't have my copy of PoA with me at school, but why should I let that stop me? <g> I thought that Lupin told them that the boggart would get confused and start turning into what was feared by people in the room, basically. It wouldn't just randomly turn into things to try and scare people, it would rapidly turn from one person's fear to another as it got confused by all the input. So maybe the three didn't Ridikkulus it, but they did contribute to the boggart's confusion. 

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sat Feb 10 00:37:15 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:37:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lycanthropy, and Remus' middle name
In-Reply-To: <961ifb+erta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102091754240.10338-100000@er2.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 11960

On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 fred_and_george_weasley at yahoo.com wrote:

> Also, I would like to make a quick point about the word LYCANTHROPY.  
> Lycanthropy refers to anyone who can assume ANY kind of animal form, 
> not just werewolvism (alos, I think there might be a pyshosis called 
> lycanthropy in which people believe themselves to be animals).  So 
> technically, all the Animagi are lycanthropes.  

Actually, I've always thought that when discussing actual
transformations, lycanthropy only refers to the assumption of wolf-form
(as per the etymology), and not that of any other animals.  The (quasi?  
I don't have a copy of the DSM-IV or anything handy) medical usage can,
however, refer to a belief that one is any animal, not just a wolf.  
(The OED agrees with me, FWIW.)  But since Animagi are *actually*
transforming, it's certainly not a mental disorder, and is quite
distinct from lycanthropy, in either the sense of mental disorder or
werewolfism.

Now, as for Remus' middle name...  the warped theory first.  *g*

The J stands for James, as in James Potter, Remus' twin from whom he was
separated at birth.  They both have black hair and they're the same age,
right?  Voila, the long lost twin!  *g*

Okay, fine, so that's just silly.  But for a better suggestion, and one
I'm actually rather partial to, how 'bout Janus?  Janus was the Roman
god of (to simplify) doors, represented as having two faces, a double
(twin) nature.  Janus Geminus (=twin), also known as Janus Quirinus
(otherwise a name used of Romulus), had a shrine in the Forum, a
freestanding gate that was left open in wartime, but closed in
peacetime.  See, twin and Romulan connections!  The double nature of
Janus is also a little like Remus' double nature as both human and wolf.  
And it's a nice Latin name, like his other two.

(Obviously, I'm assuming that JRK has picked a signficant middle name
for Remus, just like his first and last names.  I was kind of trying to
think of a j-name associated with werewolves, or wolves in general,
particularly from Roman legend or Latin roots, but I absolutely
couldn't.)

Another possible name that I'm not quite as fond of is Julius.  Other
than Julius Caesar's claim to be a descendant of Romulus, I don't see
any real significance that would make this a plausible guess for a
middle name.  (Unless Remus is planning to become dictator? *g*)

Jason doesn't make any sense either, nor does Ju(p)piter (thought that
would be a nice parallel with Sirius, both being also astronomical
bodies), and Jarbas (Dido's suitor in the Aeneid) is just too obscure.  
And really, no other Roman j-names spring to mind...  Junius?

Or maybe his middle name's just... John. :)

--jen, whose familiarity with werewolf stories basically begins and ends
with the (fun for the whole family!... well, sort of) story in
Petronius' Satyricon :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 10 02:30:43 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:30:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Lupin & Snape as teachers
References: <9603vt+lnn9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A84A7D2.17CF66A9@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11961

mohuebner0 at lycos.de wrote:

> I can see your point here. But I would still think that if Albus
> Dumbledore hired him as a teacher, he is safe. Dumbledore is no fool.
> Of course he doesn't know everything and isn't allmighty, but he
> wouldn't deliberately endanger his students.

Albus Dumbledore has a very hands-off teaching style, which has been
discussed on the group before. And regardless, I stand by what I said
before, as a wizard parent you probably wouldn't want your child around
a teacher with lycanthropy. Making the choice to run a risk oneself is
entirely different than making the choice for someone else whose welfare
is your responsibility. Like I don't mind seeing people on motorcycles
without helmets--it's their head--but I don't like seeing kids behind
them with no helmets. Are you willing to make the choice to let your
child run a life-endangering risk, on the basis of someone else's
evaluation? Even a most puissant wizard?

> Snape on the other hand doesn't endanger his students physically, but
> the psychological damage he causes is worse IMHO than what Lupin *may*
> do to my kids. While Lupin might be dangerous once a month if he
> forgets to take his potion, Snape doesn't have any "special" days
> where he is mean. I am still astonished about the fact that so many
> people seem to accept Snape's teaching style without objection.

Snape's a very unpleasant, mean teacher. I'd probably be sending owls in
Dumbledore's direction if my child were harassed in his class. But
still--Snape may cause some psychological echoes down the line. But most
of those can be overcome, or understood, or dealt with, without
effectively making the affected person a pariah. Lycanthropy is a
serious disease that removes a person from any normal existence (normal
is a relative term, you all understand; I'm talking wizarding normal).
There is no comparison between Lupin's actual, if small, severe danger,
and Snape's snottiness.

It is part of the tragedy of Lupin's character that he is such a
wonderful teacher, and cannot teach. However, I'm betting that the
burden of the lycanthropy is part of what has tempered him to be such a
wonderful personality (I think one of those Greek drama terms covers
this kind of irony).

> I agree. But what Snape does to Neville certainly won't help to make
> him gain more self-regard. Neville's life is miserable because he is
> terrified all the time, mainly because of Snape when he is at
> Hogwarts. How do you justify that?

Well, for one, I'm not prepared to say Neville is *terrified* all the
time. He certainly is in Snape's classes, but while he is uncertain of
himself and insecure, I think terrified is a bit of a reach. I think if
Neville's life is miserable, it's more because of a domineering
grandmother, well-intentioned though she be, and the condition of his
parents, rather than due to one very, very nasty teacher. But I won't
even say he's miserable. Terminally insecure is close to miserable, but
no cigar.

And I don't justify what Snape does to Neville. I don't justify his
behavior to any of the students. I attempt to explain and understand it,
but I don't by any means justify it. His teaching style is far from the
sympathetic style of Lupin, but I think Snape does manage to convey the
intricacies of his craft adequately, which is probably the sum, in his
mind, that he is called upon to do. He isn't paid to be nice. It is
probably part of the tragedy of Snape's character--and I sense there is
some tragedy there, although Snape's the sort to snarl about it and gets
less empathy--that he, for whatever reason, must teach and doesn't like
it, while Lupin loves it and can't.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 10 03:31:03 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:31:03 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <3A84A7D2.17CF66A9@texas.net>
Message-ID: <962cln+l8r0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11962

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> mohuebner0 at l... wrote:
<snip>
> Albus Dumbledore has a very hands-off teaching style, which has been
> discussed on the group before. <snip>

I think at this point we're discussing his administrative style. :)
I'm sure this list has some management knowledgeable people out 
there...how is Dumbledore as a manager? I mean, how does one deal 
with an employee with a "difficult" personality like Snape. 

<snip>.
> 
> Snape's a very unpleasant, mean teacher. I'd probably be sending 
owls in
> Dumbledore's direction if my child were harassed in his class. But
> still--Snape may cause some psychological echoes down the line.
<snip>

I still don't get why Dumbledore decided that it's a good idea to 
hire a guy who likes bullying the students... Maybe it's a secret to 
be revealed later. I can't believe no one complains either. Maybe 
Neville's too scared to complain to his grandmother, and there is the 
whole anti "telling-tales" thing. 

<snip>

> 
> And I don't justify what Snape does to Neville. I don't justify his
> behavior to any of the students. I attempt to explain and 
understand it,
> but I don't by any means justify it.

Heh. As I understand it, he doesn't like teaching, but does so to pay 
the bills and maybe for the lab space (I see him as one of those star 
researches at a university, hired at great expense, who doesn't like 
undergrads). Or there could be some other, yet to be revealed reason 
for Snape to teach while not liking it. Perhaps there is a real 
shortage of qualified Potions experts? He has a secret sense of duty? 
All plausible, but non conclusive conjectures. 

Of course, we're assuming here that Snape doesn't like teaching. 
Anyone want to argue the reverse?

Charmian

<snip>





From Neny_Priyanto at excite.com  Sat Feb 10 04:06:59 2001
From: Neny_Priyanto at excite.com (Neny_Priyanto at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 04:06:59 -0000
Subject: Need Questions for Students: HP & Sorcerer's Stone
Message-ID: <962ep3+1v1h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11963

Hi everyone;
I'm a lecturer of Extensive Reading for English Dept freshmen. I need 
your help on comprehension questions for HP & the Sorcerer's Stone. 
This questions will be used in the novel test. Any inputs anyone? 
Thanks.
PS: We are in Indonesia, Southeast Asia. English is a foreign lang so 
the questions need not to be too complicated.




From duo at dangerous-minds.com  Sat Feb 10 06:32:11 2001
From: duo at dangerous-minds.com (Nathan)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:32:11 +0800
Subject: Weird names (OT) was [HPforGrownups] Re: Patapiusz and Symplicjusz (was Sirius' name)
In-Reply-To: <961jek+2g1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJDFLDJGEHGEPJKICAEOPCFAA.jin@fastmail.i-next.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11964


peaking of weird names, I have a friend named Baryon Tensor. His older
brother is Agham Bayan which means Science Nation. And his twin kid brothers
are Hector Atom and Vector Ion.

Yes, their parents are experimental physicists of great renown here.

Nathan

>It was me who missed the reference. I wanted to tell you that not
>only wizards choose strange names for their children. I've heard (but
>I don't know whether it's true) that two boys in Poland have been
>called by their Muggle (?) parents like that (Patapiusz and
>Sympllicjysz).
>
>Katarzyna




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Feb 10 06:30:12 2001
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:30:12 -0500
Subject: PoU Harry and the spotlight
Message-ID: <v02140b85b6aa900fb646@[140.254.113.133]>

No: HPFGUIDX 11965


Re:  Harry's extroverted actions at the Friends and Former Pupils Gala

B, I agree that this particular moment (when he announces their engagement
and then kisses her in front of everyone) isn't particularly shy of him.

However, I think that extreme happiness can induce these giddy moments of
devil-may-care abandon in even the most reclusive of introverts!

But your point is taken.
Lori


**************************************************
Lori   "How Much Would You Pay"  Summers

     "That Hieronymous Bosch.  What a weirdo."
                --Crowley, "Good Omens"

Last movie seen:  "Run Lola Run"
Discman's spinning:  "Pleasantville" soundtrack
Nighttable:  "HP and the Goblet of Fire" UK edition
***************************************************





From mschub at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 10 07:11:37 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:11:37 -0000
Subject: Weird names (OT)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJDFLDJGEHGEPJKICAEOPCFAA.jin@fastmail.i-next.net>
Message-ID: <962pj9+vik9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11966

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nathan" <duo at d...> wrote:
> 
> peaking of weird names, I have a friend named Baryon Tensor. His 
older
> brother is Agham Bayan which means Science Nation. And his twin kid 
brothers
> are Hector Atom and Vector Ion.
> Yes, their parents are experimental physicists of great renown here.

My mother, in her years of teaching elementary school, has come across 
some real all-stars. For instance (and I swear to God these are real):
"Damage" (pronounced Dah-MAH-jay)
"Female" (pronounced Feh-MAH-lee)
...and my personal favorite...
"Canine" (pronounced Ka-NEEN)
Parents aren't exactly rocket scientists (or experimental physicists, 
for that matter).
-Mike




From andeinmn at aol.com  Sat Feb 10 14:04:44 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:04:44 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weird names (OT)
Message-ID: <97.1104eb70.27b6a47c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11967

In a message dated 2/10/01 1:12:08 AM Central Standard Time, mschub at yahoo.com 
writes:

> My mother, in her years of teaching elementary school, has come across 
>  some real all-stars. For instance (and I swear to God these are real):
>  "Damage" (pronounced Dah-MAH-jay)
>  "Female" (pronounced Feh-MAH-lee)
>  ...and my personal favorite...
>  "Canine" (pronounced Ka-NEEN)
>  Parents aren't exactly rocket scientists (or experimental physicists, 
>  for that matter).
>  -Mike
>  

My own worst name contribution, from seven years in pediatrics ....
"Orangejello"  (pronounced Or-AHN-zhello) and his twin "Yellowjello" 
(Yel-LOW-zhello).   Sheesh!  Why not just name your child 
"My-parents-are-sadistic-idiots"?

Andrea



From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sat Feb 10 15:17:47 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:17:47 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <962cln+l8r0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <963m2r+tgrr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11968

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sashibuya at h... wrote:

> snip
> Heh. As I understand it, he doesn't like teaching, but does so to 
>pay the bills and maybe for the lab space (I see him as one of those 
>star researches at a university, hired at great expense, who doesn't 
>like undergrads). Or there could be some other, yet to be revealed 
>reason for Snape to teach while not liking it. Perhaps there is a 
>real shortage of qualified Potions experts? He has a secret sense of 
duty? 
> All plausible, but non conclusive conjectures. 
> 
> Of course, we're assuming here that Snape doesn't like teaching. 
> Anyone want to argue the reverse?

I think Snape has a generally low opinion of his students. In Harry's 
very first Potions class in SS, Snape tells the students how he can 
teach them all sorts of things, assuming the kids "aren't as big a 
bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."  However, perhaps 
Snape is simply brilliant at what he does but finds it frustrating 
that:
 1) most students want to get the immediate satisfaction of waving a 
wand to get a result, and are impatient with the slower methods of 
Potions brewing, or;
 2) it's rare for Snape to have students who appear to have a real 
talent for Potions, and thus, he feels he cannot truly pass on his 
knowledge.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb 10 15:19:37 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:19:37 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Want to design a logo for this club? (reminder) 
Message-ID: <001c01c09374$e1e8e580$ce3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11969

DESIGN A LOGO FOR THIS CLUB

Are you artistic?  Would you like to design a logo for HP4GU?  Then enter
our competition and win nothing!!  But before you unleash your creativity,
PLEASE read the rules and follow the instructions here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/11192

You can view entries to date, here (voting comes later):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logos
.htm

If you have any comments or queries regarding this competition then please
contact Simon at simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk - including, in the
subject line: HP4GU - LOGO.

Thanks and good luck!.

HP4GU Mod Squad & FAQ Team

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The Moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!
Read all the things you never knew you were doing wrong!
Avoid spending the rest of your rulebreakin' life as a ferret!":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 10 15:25:12 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:25:12 -0000
Subject: Weird names (back on topic)
In-Reply-To: <97.1104eb70.27b6a47c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <963mgo+f9b6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11970

from Mike:

> > My mother, in her years of teaching elementary school, has come 
across 
> >  some real all-stars. For instance (and I swear to God these are 
real):
> >  "Damage" (pronounced Dah-MAH-jay)
> >  "Female" (pronounced Feh-MAH-lee)
> >  ...and my personal favorite...
> >  "Canine" (pronounced Ka-NEEN)
> >  Parents aren't exactly rocket scientists (or experimental 
physicists, 
> >  for that matter).

from Andrea:

> My own worst name contribution, from seven years in pediatrics ....
> "Orangejello"  (pronounced Or-AHN-zhello) and his twin "Yellowjello" 
> (Yel-LOW-zhello).   Sheesh!  Why not just name your child 
> "My-parents-are-sadistic-idiots"?

Wow.  "Severus Snape" is starting to sound like a perfectly charming 
thing to name your baby boy.

I've been wondering why the latest wizarding generation has such 
boring Muggle names.  Earlier generations seem to be a mix--you've got 
your Mollys and Arthurs and Jameses, sure, but also your Siriuses and 
Minervas and Severuses.  Just off the top of my head, Draco is the 
only younger wizard with an unusual name.  Does this trend reflect a 
desire to blend in better with the Muggle world?  Or what?

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------
"Flint nearly kills the Gryffindor Seeker,
which could happen to anyone, I'm sure..."
	    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
--------------------------------------------




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Feb 10 15:49:22 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:49:22 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <963m2r+tgrr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <963nu2+d0ce@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11971

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sashibuya at h... wrote:
> 
> > snip
> > Heh. As I understand it, he doesn't like teaching, but does so to 
> >pay the bills and maybe for the lab space (I see him as one of 
those 
> >star researches at a university, hired at great expense, who 
doesn't 
> >like undergrads). Or there could be some other, yet to be revealed 
> >reason for Snape to teach while not liking it. Perhaps there is a 
> >real shortage of qualified Potions experts? He has a secret sense 
of 
> duty? 
> > All plausible, but non conclusive conjectures. 
> > 
> > Of course, we're assuming here that Snape doesn't like teaching. 
> > Anyone want to argue the reverse?
> 
> I think Snape has a generally low opinion of his students. In 
Harry's 
> very first Potions class in SS, Snape tells the students how he can 
> teach them all sorts of things, assuming the kids "aren't as big a 
> bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."  However, perhaps 
> Snape is simply brilliant at what he does but finds it frustrating 
> that:
>  1) most students want to get the immediate satisfaction of waving 
a 
> wand to get a result, and are impatient with the slower methods of 
> Potions brewing, or;
>  2) it's rare for Snape to have students who appear to have a real 
> talent for Potions, and thus, he feels he cannot truly pass on his 
> knowledge.


I agree with this assessment.  Snape seems to have a real gift for 
Potions (which I gather is rare) and he seems to me to be a 
perfectionist.  I think that he likes teaching, but is perhaps 
frustrated that no one in his classes seems to have the patience or 
the talent to measure up to his rather exacting standards.

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From annetteh11 at home.com  Sat Feb 10 15:58:48 2001
From: annetteh11 at home.com (annetteh11 at home.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:58:48 -0000
Subject: How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as a baby?
In-Reply-To: <94jsp0+e887@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <963ofo+a8re@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11972

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Keith Fraser" <keith.fraser at s...> wrote:
> What was it that allowed Harry to survive the supposedly 
unstoppable 
> Killing Curse and reflect it back onto the user? In Book 4 
Voldemort 
> seems to believe that Lily's dying for him both stopped and 
deflected 
> the curse. However, as I have seen pointed out in the past, people 
> have probably taken an Avada Kedavra for others before, so there 
may 
> have been something else.
> 
> Also, in Book 2 Harry says something like: "Nobody knows why you 
lost 
> your powers when you attacked me. But I know why you couldn't kill 
> me. Because my mother died to save me." to Young Voldemort (Tom 
> Riddle). I don't know how well-founded Harry's statement was, but 
it 
> suggests the halting and reflection of the curse were separate 
things.
> 
> Fanfic authors (including myself) have put forward various ideas 
> about Harry being some kind of super-wizard. The books haven't yet 
> shown much if any evidence of this (his resistance to the Imperius 
> Curse is a possible clue), and it's impossible to know if that will 
> turn out to be the case, but I support this idea. For one thing, it 
> means Harry might have a chance of defeating Voldemort once his 
> dormant powers emerge, which means the books can end the way 
everyone 
> wants them to - with Kentucky Fried Voldemort.


Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch or a 
muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that she 
was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a reference to 
this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end of book 4, 
when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort said how 
alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....Another 
thing I noticed is that the Death Eaters are all violently anti mud 
blood, but why then would they support Voldemort if he had a muggle 
mother?




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Feb 10 16:34:10 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:34:10 -0000
Subject: How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as a baby?
In-Reply-To: <963ofo+a8re@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <963qi2+jnvb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11973

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., annetteh11 at h... wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch or 
a 
> muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that 
she 
> was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a reference to 
> this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end of book 4, 
> when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort said how 
> alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....Another 
> thing I noticed is that the Death Eaters are all violently anti mud 
> blood, but why then would they support Voldemort if he had a muggle 
> mother?

It was Riddle's *father* who was the muggle.  In CoS, p. 231 UK 
edition, Voldemort explains how he "became" Voldemort.  'I, keep the 
name of a foul, common Muggle, who abandoned me before I was born, 
just because he found out his wife was a witch?'...

This is the reason (IMO) that Voldemort hates people born of muggle 
parentage.  

Hope this helps!

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From annetteh11 at home.com  Sat Feb 10 17:22:49 2001
From: annetteh11 at home.com (Annette Harada)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:22:49 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as a baby?
References: <963qi2+jnvb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c09386$17b962a0$6401a8c0@greg>

No: HPFGUIDX 11974


----- Original Message -----
From: <pbnesbit at msn.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 9:34 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as a
baby?


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., annetteh11 at h... wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch or
> a
> > muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that
> she
> > was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a reference to
> > this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end of book 4,
> > when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort said how
> > alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....Another
> > thing I noticed is that the Death Eaters are all violently anti mud
> > blood, but why then would they support Voldemort if he had a muggle
> > mother?
>
> It was Riddle's *father* who was the muggle.  In CoS, p. 231 UK
> edition, Voldemort explains how he "became" Voldemort.  'I, keep the
> name of a foul, common Muggle, who abandoned me before I was born,
> just because he found out his wife was a witch?'...
>
> This is the reason (IMO) that Voldemort hates people born of muggle
> parentage.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Peace & Plenty,
>
> Parker
>
> Ok, I'll grant you that one about Voldemort, but what about Lilly Potter?
Voldemort did say she was a muggle....

Thanks for your response
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Feb 10 17:48:17 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:48:17 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as a baby?
In-Reply-To: <963ofo+a8re@eGroups.com>
References: <94jsp0+e887@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010210093911.02daa100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11975

At 03:58 PM 2/10/01 +0000, annetteh11 at home.com wrote:
>Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch or a
>muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that she
>was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a reference to
>this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end of book 4,
>when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort said how
>alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....

I don't think Death Eaters make any distinction between Muggle-born
Wizards and pure Muggles.  Just like the Fundies make no distinction
berween Harry Potter fans and Satan-worshippers.



                                                 -- Dave




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 10 17:59:51 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:59:51 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ron and Hermione - "It's a family affair!"
In-Reply-To: <009701c09260$edd5c760$5b3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <963vin+32p4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11976

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> STOP PRESS: FFA attempts a serious shipping post - no poems, no 
parodies - everyone chokes back the boredom as he enters 'Binns' 
mode.
> 
> ***
> 
> [DISCLAIMER ? I haven't read every single shipping post - I need to 
see the world outside - so I apologise if the following thoughts have 
been proposed before.  I also pity you if you think like I do]
> 
> Not wishing to suggest that there are only two male archetypes 
[waves at Dave Hardenbrook and all the women on this list], but 
during the various discussions about Ron and Harry in canon and 
fanon, I've become increasingly sure that I'm like Ron, and not, as 
I'd hoped, like Harry.  I don't share Ron's passion for sport, but I 
am sarcastic and insecure and I was inclined, when younger, to be 
very jealous and indulge in blanking people with fuming silences.  I 
am also freckly and have a touch of redhead in me (in fact, I've 
found a picture of me aged 11 that looks uncannily like Rupert Grint 
in 'Joe 90' glasses).  I'm stretching it, I know.  Indulge me, 
please
.
> 
> My reason for mentioning all that is that I've been told that, in 
relationships, I'm inclined to fall into the parent-child model, 
where I'm the parent, and that set me thinking of Ron as a `parent' 
in our triumvirate
.
> 
> In my view, Harry is the `child' to Ron & Hermione's `parents' in 
many respects.  Harry came to the magical world like a newborn baby, 
ignorant of its wonders, while, by birth and book, respectively; Ron 
and Hermione became his `elders', teachers and advisors.  Harry is 
the risk-taking teen swimming in newfound popularity, while Ron is 
the exasperated guide and Hermione the admonishing rulekeeper.  In 
Harry's shadow, Ron could be compared with the father who lives 
through his son.  He watches his Quidditch matches and encourages 
him, despite his own lack of involvement; he experiences poverty, 
while Harry enjoys a wizard fortune (isn't it often the case that 
parents wish better for their children than they had?).  Hermione, on 
the other hand, is the perfect, finger wagging, nagging mother, who 
does everything but wipe Harry's face with a spittled hankie. 
> 
> I could equally make a case for Hermione and Harry as the parents 
and Ron as the child, if I shift the emphasis to the Muggle world, 
but my point (I did get there eventually) is that this is a three-way 
relationship that engenders familial love and bonding.  My original 
model isn't all-encompassing and doesn't preclude romantic links 
within the `family,' but it is, perhaps, the foundation of the 
lasting, platonic friendship between these three.  Alternatively, it 
could also be that Harry `grows up' and moves on, as many children 
do, and that Ron and Hermione are left to enjoy their fractious 
`marriage,' or that we'll witness an eye-popping `incestuous' 
relationship between Harry and one of the other two.  
> 
> Okay, now pull me to pieces!
> 

Very, very cool!! I really think you've got something there. In fact, 
I think you've hit on one of the main (subconscious) reasons that R/H 
always seems so right to me and H/H doesn't. 
Of course, the parents-child aspect of the three-cornered 
relationship is only one of its aspects (or else Ron's jealousy of 
Harry would be completely out of place), and I think its mostly the 
result of the external circumstances. I mean that its not that Harry 
is by nature more childish or dependent than either Ron or Hermione. 
Its just that he's the one that is constantly in danger (being 
Voldemort's favorite shooting target) and so he needs more help and 
guidance. 

Thanks Neil! That was a really interesting post.

Naama




From ebyneezy at netzero.net  Sat Feb 10 18:14:46 2001
From: ebyneezy at netzero.net (ebyneezy at netzero.net)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:14:46 -0000
Subject: New Member/Snape
Message-ID: <9640em+fuif@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11977

New here.  Trying to read all the old posts, but it takes awhile.  
Sorry if you've already discussed this, but some of my lawschool 
classmates and I have just gotten attracted to the books and 
wondering about Snape's true character.  

I don't think that Snape hates teaching.  Someone back there was 
referring to the Paper Chase.  I have definitely seen worse 
professors.  We think his behavior is just a reflection of something 
in his past.  But, there's the question isn't it.  We know that he 
came to school with great knowledge of Dark Arts, became a DE, and 
then returned to the good side.  But, why did he have so much 
knowledge, and join the DE?  What would make his return after going 
that far?  And why does he have such a hatred for Harry?  

We were thinking that maybe his family was tied to the dark side.  
And, it would seem that it would take something drastic to bring him 
back.  I usually don't put must weight into rumors, but the idea that 
Snape may have been in love with Lily makes some sense.  That would 
explain why he would have left Vold (he could have been the one that 
told V was afterr the Potters) and would explain his extreme jealousy 
of James (stole Lily), Sirius (thought he caused her death), and 
Harry (James' son).  Any thoughts?




From ender_w at msn.com  Sat Feb 10 18:27:50 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:27:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re : Weird names (back off topic)
References: <963mgo+f9b6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c0938f$2e0a3080$aee7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 11978


  -

  from Andrea:

  > My own worst name contribution, from seven years in pediatrics ....
  > "Orangejello"  (pronounced Or-AHN-zhello) and his twin "Yellowjello" 
  > (Yel-LOW-zhello).   Sheesh!  Why not just name your child 
  > "My-parents-are-sadistic-idiots"?


  I've heard of that too, so I just assumed it was an urban myth.  Unfortunately, it would seem that it isn't.  I have also heard of the name Target (tar-ZHAY).  

  It would seem that the majority of younger wizards have more mugglish names now, but then we haven't heard all of them, only the ones Harry comes in contact with.  Perhaps the older wizards come out of a sort of "flower-child" era in which weird names became popular.  Or maybe these are old family names that, like some muggle names, have gone out of style.  Naming trends come and go.  Nowadays there aren't as many Hirams, Mollys, Graces, and Grants as there are Lauras, Justins, Jennifers, Ashleys and Alexies.

  ender

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 10 18:39:59 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:39:59 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <963nu2+d0ce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9641tv+iosu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11979

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sashibuya at h... wrote:
> > 
> > > snip
> > > Heh. As I understand it, he doesn't like teaching, but does so 
to 
> > >pay the bills and maybe for the lab space (I see him as one of 
> those 
> > >star researches at a university, hired at great expense, who 
> doesn't 
> > >like undergrads). Or there could be some other, yet to be 
revealed 
> > >reason for Snape to teach while not liking it. Perhaps there is 
a 
> > >real shortage of qualified Potions experts? He has a secret 
sense 
> of 
> > duty? 
> > > All plausible, but non conclusive conjectures. 
> > > 
> > > Of course, we're assuming here that Snape doesn't like 
teaching. 
> > > Anyone want to argue the reverse?
> > 
> > I think Snape has a generally low opinion of his students. In 
> Harry's 
> > very first Potions class in SS, Snape tells the students how he 
can 
> > teach them all sorts of things, assuming the kids "aren't as big 
a 
> > bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."  However, 
perhaps 
> > Snape is simply brilliant at what he does but finds it 
frustrating 
> > that:
> >  1) most students want to get the immediate satisfaction of 
waving 
> a 
> > wand to get a result, and are impatient with the slower methods 
of 
> > Potions brewing, or;
> >  2) it's rare for Snape to have students who appear to have a 
real 
> > talent for Potions, and thus, he feels he cannot truly pass on 
his 
> > knowledge.
> 
> 
> I agree with this assessment.  Snape seems to have a real gift for 
> Potions (which I gather is rare) and he seems to me to be a 
> perfectionist.  I think that he likes teaching, but is perhaps 
> frustrated that no one in his classes seems to have the patience or 
> the talent to measure up to his rather exacting standards.

I have to disagree here. This line of resoning would explain 
(although never justify) his behaviour to Neville. But, if it were 
true, then Snape would have ADORED Hermione, who is a wonderful 
student - talented, knowledgeable, interested. Instead of which he 
actively represses, ignores and insults her.  I think he's simply 
twisted, bitter and mean, and he vents the crap he has inside 
whenever he deals with inferiors. IMO, the whole "dunderheads" spiel 
is no more than a reationalisation of his sadistic (yes - sadistic!) 
impulses towards his students. 

I think Allan Rickman will do him perfectly!

Naama





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 10 19:21:35 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:21:35 -0800
Subject: fanletters - Lucius' age - #students - Remus Middle Name - Snape - Weird  Names 
Message-ID: <3A8594BE.92026F69@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11980

Anake neptune wrote:
> Has anyone here written to Jo Rowling? I'm currently thinking
> about a letter but not sure what to write.

Tell her that you're an adult who loves her books, and thank her for
writing them. Ask her when Ron's birthday is. Possibly ask her whether
Draco's birthday is June 24 (depending on whether I can stand to be
proved wrong by the Author herself).

Kimberly Moon wrote:
> And as for Draco being Harry's age, I don't have a problem with
> that.  Lucius and Narcissa are fairly selfish and vain.  I kinda think

> they put off having a child until it occurred to them that they'd
better
> get around to producing an heir to carry on the family name.

(I strongly agree about Lucius being older.)  Maybe Lucius and Narcissa
would have put off carrying on the family name even longer except the
Dark Lord ordered them to make a baby for the sake of some spell or
something.

Katarzyna nykteris wrote:
> born on 24 th Dec. because it's disturbing the peace of the holly
night.

I don't mean to be rude about your generally excellent typing, but that
error ('holly' for 'holy') is incredibly perfect because of the
association of Holly with the Xmas holiday.

John Walton wrote:
> this topic would go great on the new HPFGU-OTChatter list! ::subtle
hint::

There are too many HPfGU offshoot lists -- I can't join so many lists --
I'm already, what, a month?, behind on reading fanfic! HPfGU wouldn't be
quite so high-traffic if there weren't so many Netiquette reminders and
Logo Contest reminders from the Mod Squad.

Karen Weise wrote:
> that still only leaves you with 560 kids.  Am I missing something?
> Most schools for this range of ages are a lot bigger.

I know that there is going to be a FAQ about the number of students,
because that is a hotly debated topic on this list. Most people believe
either that there are around 300 students (approximately ten per House
per school, five boys and five girls, with maybe usually fewer in
Gryffindor and Slytherin and more in Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw) or that
there are around 1000 students. I think there is one person who argues
for around 560 students.

The 300 students advocates say that seating 1000 students at only four
long tables would be impossibly long for tables, that there are only
twenty broomsticks waiting for the first Gryffindor - Slytherin joint
flying lessons and twenty cauldrons waiting for the first Gryffindor -
Slytherin joint Potions lesson, that it would hard enough to fit 70
Gryffindors into one common room and impossible to fit 250, etc.

The 1000 students advocates, such as me, were cheered when JKR in an
on-line chat answered '1000' to the question "How many students at
Hogwarts?". I had already decided that there are 1000 students based on
the number of children who have to be born per year to have a population
of wizarding folk large enough to support all the wizarding businesses
and economy that we have seen (15,000 to 20,000 on the island of Britain
and associated isles, and that is cutting it fine) and argued that JKR
left a lot of unnecessary details out of her book, such as there are
several first-year Gryffindor boys's dormitory rooms with up to six
students each, not just one dorm room with Harry and his roommates,
there are a lot of teaching assistants to help Professors manage such
large classes and grade so much homework, the 'common room' is actually
a suite of several rooms, etc.

Some people compromise between the book's description of Hogwarts with
300 students and the number of children that must be in the wizarding
community by assuming that only the top 25% or 30% of wizarding children
go to Hogwarts and the rest go to other schools. That contradicts JKR's
statements that Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Britain.
However, any answer contradicts JKR in some way: either about how many
wizarding schools there are in Britain or what she said in chat about
how many students or what she wrote in the books about twenty
broomsticks....

She said in another interview that American children write to her
asking  how they can apply to go to Hogwarts and she writes back that
only children from the UK and the Republic of Ireland (i.e. where
Bloomsbury is her publisher) can go to Hogwarts. I CANNOT believe that
the wizarding folk allow themselves to be divided by Muggle political
boundaries, which are subject to change every time the Muggles have a
war; therefore, the wizarding folk don't know from UK and Republic;
instead, they think in terms of the Island of Britain and its isles and
the Island of Ireland and its isles. Further, I MUST believe that
Hogwarts is the school for Britain and the Irish have a school of their
own, because if Irish wizarding folk went to Hogwarts, all the members
of that great Irish World Cup team would have been Hogwarts Old Boys and
Old Girls, and that would have been mentioned by students or teachers.

Jen Faulkner wrote:
> Now, as for Remus' middle name...  the warped theory first.  *g*
> The J stands for James, as in James Potter, Remus' twin from
> whom he was separated at birth.  They both have black hair
> and they're the same age, right?  Voila, the long lost twin!  *g*

NO. Remus has brown hair (now graying), not black. When they first see
him on the Hogwarts express, it says: "The stranger was wearing an
extremely shabby set of wizard's robes that had been darned in several
places. He looked ill and exhausted. Though quite young, his light brown
hair was flecked with gray."

"What does the J stand for in Remus J Lupin? What is Harry's middle
name? What was James' middle name?" are more questions to ask JKR. I
suspect she hasn't decided yet herself.

She tells us the characters's hair color but hardly ever their eye
color. "What color are Remus's eyes? And Sirius's?" are two more
questions to ask JKR, except I don't want to be deprived of my vision of
Remus with startling blue eyes and Sirius with warm amber eyes.

Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> It is probably part of the tragedy of Snape's character (snip)
> that he, for whatever reason, must teach and doesn't like it,

When it comes to speculating WHY he must teach, one possible theory is
that he must stay at Hogwarts (do we ever see him even go to Hogsmeade?)
to be safe from vengeance by free-walking Death Eaters who know he was
the spy, and the only way he can stay at Hogwarts is as an employee.

A more misanthropic theory of why Snape must stay at Hogwarts (which, as
above, he can do only by holding a teaching position there) is if
Snuffles Storm is right about Severus and Albus being a couple. I said
'misanthropic' because it would not speak well of the much-admired
Dumbledore to stick the kids with a bad teacher just to give his nepot a
job.

Naama wrote:
> I have to disagree here. This line of reasoning would explain
> (although never justify) his behavior to Neville. But, if it were
> true, then Snape would have ADORED Hermione, who is a wonderful
> student - talented, knowledgeable, interested. Instead of which he
> actively represses, ignores and insults her.

I CANNOT understand why Snape hates Hermione: she started her first
Potions class respecting him and eager to make a good impression on him;
she listens to what he says in class (e.g. Polyjuice Potion). Even for
Snape, it seems a little extreme to hate her forever just because she
interfered that one first time with his attack on Harry.

ebyneezy at n...wrote:
> I usually don't put must weight into rumors, but the idea that
> Snape may have been in love with Lily makes some sense.

I think there'll also be a FAQ about the Snape/Lily theory, as it has
also been must discussed here. I agree that that theory can tie up very
many loose ends very neatly -- as you said, why adult Snape still hates
the Marauders and Harry (Harry as not only the sign of James' success
with Lily, but the cause of Lily's death), and why he turned against the
Dark Side, and who was the 'useful spy', and so on. I have even
suggested the possibility (which I am SURE JKR is NOT going to write)
that Snape and Lily were happily engaged to be married and James and
some other girl were happily engaged to be married, and they broke their
engagements and married each other, not for love, but because of the
prophecy that it was their son who would destroy Voldemort (which would
also be why Voldemort was determined to kill the Potter family), and
THAT is what caused Severus to join the Death Eaters out of
resentment.

But  it seems Sirius and Severus hated each other from the time they
were 11, and the Snape/Lily doesn't explain THAT.

Andrea  andeinmn at a... wrote:
> My own worst name contribution, from seven years in pediatrics ....
> "Orangejello"  (pronounced Or-AHN-zhello) and his twin "Yellowjello"
> (Yel-LOW-zhello)

A few years ago, there was an athlete in the news whose name was
pronounced "Lemon Jello".  I was always amazed to hear that name on the
radio. But I gather that it was really spelled something like
Limangiello.

A social worker friend of mine told of a client whose given name was
'Carnie'. Asked the origin of her unusual name, she explained that her
mother meant to name her 'Connie' but her Midwestern accent was so
strong that the Southern nurse filling out the birth certificate heard
it wrong.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 10 19:30:21 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:30:21 -0000
Subject: Riddle's Ancestry (was How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as a baby?
In-Reply-To: <963qi2+jnvb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9644sd+s8kb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11981

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> > but why then would [the Death Eaters] they support
> > Voldemort if he had a muggle [parent]?

I think JKR did that to point out the irrationality of the Death 
Eaters, and perhaps as a parallel to the wide-spread rumor that 
Hitler, who wanted to exterminate all Jews from the face of the 
Earth, had a Jewish grandparent. 

> It was Riddle's *father* who was the muggle.  In CoS, p. 231 UK 
> edition, Voldemort explains how he "became" Voldemort.  'I, keep 
> the name of a foul, common Muggle, who abandoned me before I was
> born, just because he found out his wife was a witch?'...
> This is the reason (IMO) that Voldemort hates people born of muggle 
> parentage.

I agree with you about this quite probably being the reason why 
Voldemort hates Muggles (perhaps partly also because of having 
been treated badly in the Muggle orphanage), and then spread his 
hatred from Muggles to half-Muggles. It surely is the reason why he 
murdered his father and grandparents (was that the first thing he did 
upon leaving school, or was he on holiday?).

However, I keep thinking (and saying) that what Tom Riddle, Jr 
believes about his parents might not be the exact truth: I wrote this 
up in detail in a post titled Tom Marvolo Riddle which is archived at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/9903






From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Feb 10 19:30:56 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:30:56 -0000
Subject: Middle Name
In-Reply-To: <3A8594BE.92026F69@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAENADCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 11982

Rita wrote: "What does the J stand for in Remus J Lupin? What is Harry's
middle name? What was James' middle name?" are more questions to ask JKR. I
suspect she hasn't decided yet herself."

She has decided on the Harry one. His middle name is James.

This information comes from the Scholastic Chat on 16th October last year.

Link: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm

The answer of James being his middle name is about half way down.


Can't help with the other questions raised.

Simon




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Sat Feb 10 19:41:30 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:41:30 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Writing to Jo
Message-ID: <86.6b58fd3.27b6f36a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11983

In a message dated 2/9/2001 7:47:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
neptune_1984 at yahoo.com writes:

<< Has anyone here written to Jo Rowling? I'm currently thinking about a 
letter but
 not sure what to write. I'm very intimidated about writing to celebrities 
because I
 would hate to get the same message again and again and again. If you have 
written,
 how long did it take for a response?  >>

I would advise that if you are going to write, write simply because you want 
someone to read what you have written, and not in expectation of a response. 
It is likely that you will receive nothing at all. Many agencies have systems 
set up to reply to fan-mail and many times the 'star's' never even see such a 
letter. Sometimes you will get an autographed photo pulled from a stack of 
such for sending in a fan letter.

This is certainly not written to dissuade you from writing. But write for the 
content and what you'd like whoever reads it to take from the letter, not 
because you expect a response.


~Hedwig~

 "Meow. Hoo. Meow. Hoo."

 



From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sat Feb 10 20:00:57 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:00:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Angelina/Ages of Hogwarts First Years (was Ron & Quidditch)
Message-ID: <20010210200057.3FE322748@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11984

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From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 10 20:04:15 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:04:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy (was Houses...)
Message-ID: <F288z0OmvlI8ikbxSGY00000933@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11985




>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy" <alw at w...> wrote:
> >
> > --This could be an explanation I guess. It seems to be generally
> > accepted however that Lucius was older than the Marauders and
>Snape.
> > More likely he and Arthur Weasely are contemperaries.
> >
> > Why is it generally accepted that Lucius is older than the
>Marauders and Snape and that he and Arthur are contemporaries?
><snip>
>
> > Amy
> >
>I agree Amy, becuase if Lucius and Snape were in school around the
>same time, then it doeesn't make sense that in CoS Draco says that he
>will tell his father that Snape is the best teacher - Snape and
>Lucius would already know each other.
>
>Becky
>
They knew each other bc they were both Deatheaters
Signe

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 10 20:07:53 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:07:53 -0600
Subject: Snape and Hermione
References: <9641tv+iosu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A859F99.F9852251@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11986

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> I have to disagree here. This line of resoning would explain (although
> never justify) his behaviour to Neville. But, if it were true, then
> Snape would have ADORED Hermione, who is a wonderful student -
> talented, knowledgeable, interested. Instead of which he actively
> represses, ignores and insults her.  I think he's simply twisted,
> bitter and mean, and he vents the crap he has inside whenever he deals
> with inferiors. IMO, the whole "dunderheads" spiel is no more than a
> reationalisation of his sadistic (yes - sadistic!)
> impulses towards his students.

Well, I think that Snape is so overwhelmed by his reaction to Harry,
which is of a visceral nature, that it includes Harry's friends. His
appreciation for a gifted student would be on a much more intellectual
level, and would stand no chance against the inferno of emotional
associations he feels when he looks at Harry and his friends and "sees"
James and *his* friends. And although Hermione wasn't particularly
Harry's friend until after the troll fight, she probably got herself
identified with Harry in Snape's mind the first class day, when Harry
told Snape to call on her.

> I think Allan Rickman will do him perfectly!

Of course. Goes without saying. He *is* Snape. I can't wait until the
movie comes out and I can sit back with my feet up and watch all the
"Amanda, you were *sooo* right about Alan Rickman" emails come flooding
in....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sat Feb 10 20:14:52 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] muggle artifacts
Message-ID: <20010210201452.397CE3ED3@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11987

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From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 10 20:14:13 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:14:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron & Quidditch
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEOOCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3A85A115.3F3F5219@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11988

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> A thought crossed my mind just now (A miracle! Call the Pope!).  Why
> isn't Ron on the Quidditch team?  He's so avid about Quidditch; his
> brothers Charlie, Fred, and George are/were all on the Gryffindor
> team... Why, after four years, is Ron still sitting in the stands
> during the games?

Sorry, this was in my to do file and I forgot to answer it. I think
Ron's not on the team because he doesn't have a broom up to standard. So
far as we've seen, the players on the teams provide their own brooms,
however they obtain them. If the older Weasley brothers were great
Quidditch players, then I'm betting that however they got their "team"
brooms, they kept them and still indulge in local games in idle moments.
So Ron may never have gotten a hand-me-down broom at all, much less one
that he can try out for the team on. Perhaps, if he manages to acquire
one somehow, we'll see him on the team...?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 10 20:29:15 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:29:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interview with HP screenwriter
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEKFDCAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A85A49B.3D5276BF@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 11989

Simon wrote:

> Oh well - I was coming to the conclusion that I did not want to see
> the movie anyway.

For those of you afraid of the coming movie, I've finally pondered
myself into a rambling discourse. Get comfy.

It is in instances like this, when movies are to be made of books that I
love, that my association with a medieval recreation group comes in
handy in an unexpected way. Our society is a literate one, not an oral
one; we use the technology of writing to record and convey information.
Hence, we expect letter-perfection in most instances--like my old
roommate who didn't like any of the Monty Python stuff done live,
because (get this) *they did it wrong* (i.e., it wasn't verbatim from
the records, down to the millisecond pauses). Like someone who goes to
see a musical, and doesn't like it because it wasn't just like the other
time she saw it--the scenery or staging was different. Etc. In the age
of records (excuse me, my age is showing), CDs, videos, etc., we are
losing the little tolerance we had, as a culture, for variation.

Me, before I was married and had children and a Serious Life to deal
with, I spent many, many hours around campfires listening to tales. Many
of these tales dealt with misadventures of the very people I was sitting
with. None of them are written down. Most of them have been told for
years. And for any one specific event (my favorite, say, where I ran
Ivar's pants up the flagpole), there's really only one set of salient
facts, but zillions of versions. It depends on who's telling it, whether
they were there, the particular thrust they want to put on different
little details, and on occasion, the sobriety of the speaker. It's not
uncommon to hear the same story told twice or more in a row, by
different people, for the "hey, whoa, *this* is what *really* happened"
type fun.

My point is that because I have spent a bit of quality time in a
quasi-oral situation, I can approach this movie as someone's retelling
of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. The salient points will be
there. But I don't expect it to be exactly the same, because someone
besides JKR is telling this version. That doesn't mean that it won't be
a damn good version. Just not verbatim.

Hope this ramble made sense.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bbennett at joymail.com  Sat Feb 10 20:46:58 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:46:58 -0000
Subject: Ron & Quidditch
In-Reply-To: <3A85A115.3F3F5219@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9649c2+fb59@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11990


> Sorry, this was in my to do file and I forgot to answer it. I think
> Ron's not on the team because he doesn't have a broom up to 
standard. So far as we've seen, the players on the teams provide 
their own brooms,however they obtain them. 
> 
> --Amanda

I assumed he wasn't on the team because there hasn't been a 
position opening. Wood graduated though, so maybe we'll see 
him trying out in the next book. 

B.




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 10 21:25:54 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:25:54 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as a baby?
Message-ID: <F51wr2UAaTzvb5YI9IJ0000ecd9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11991



>At 03:58 PM 2/10/01 +0000, annetteh11 at home.com wrote:
>Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch or a
>muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that she
>was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a reference to
>this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end of book 4,
>when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort said how
>alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....



Ummm....Voldemort's mother was a witch, his dad was a Muggle.  His mother 
lived in the same village as his dad and fell in love with him, but he left 
her when he found out she was a witch.  I think you are thinking of when 
Crouch Jr tells Harry how similar he and Voldemort are, with BAD fathers who 
hated them and deserted them, who made them their namesakes.

Also, He calls his father a "muggle and a fool, very like your dear 
mother..."


Stephanie
Who just read DS12 and am wishing I had DS13 ;)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb 10 21:58:51 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:58:51 -0000
Subject: Snape's sacrifice/the Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <F131N3qljWwY0VnkB4l00003d79@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <964dir+a8b1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11992

> >Mike wrote:
> > > This just occurred to me: (I had never even THOUGHT of this 
before,
> > > but now I'm totally convinced.) Snape is going to die for 
Harry. At
> > > the beginning, V will accept him back, begrudgingly, and sort of
> > > half-trust him. Then V will find out that Snape is a spy, and
> >instead of killing him, begin to use him. Snape will eventually 
find
> >out he's being used, find out that it's put Harry in danger, and
> >stand up to V (and die). So Snape will die for Harry. I can't 
believe
> >I never thought of that before. I don't think he will "die for 
Harry
> >Potter", but I can totally see Snape "dying to defeat the Dark 
Lord",
> >and in order to do that, I think he will recognize that he will 
have
> >to die for Harry Potter.
> > > -Mike<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> >
> >Oooh, VERY convincing theory, Mike.  I'm a Snape-fan, and I had
> >considered he might be one we'll lose by the end, but I had never
> >made any further attempt to flesh this thought out.  I hate to lose
> >him, but you've made quite a compelling argument.  Very intriguing,
> >and what a great twist to throw to those Snape-haters, canon and
> >fans, alike...
> >
> >Kelley
> >
> Signe wrote:
> That is an interesting take on it.  I always envisioned Harry 
standing up for Snape and saving Snape's life (technically paying him 
back for that time in SS/PS when Snape saved Harry).<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

That's another plausible take.  Does Harry feel beholden to Snape for 
this, though?  I'm thinking Dumble said Snape working so hard to save 
Harry's life in PS/SS was as repayment to James for saving his 
(Snape's) life when Sirius sent him to the Shrieking Shack where 
Lupin was.  That would just gall Snape, wouldn't it?  Harry saving 
his life?  Hmm, not to mention the conflict for Harry...

> Signe:
> I have also had this preminition that 
> the Dursleys will be endangered and Harry will save them with 
magic.  This way they won't think magic is so bad.  However, as many 
have told me, this is wishful thinking.
> 
> Signe<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Wishful thinking why?  That would seem very like JKR, to open bigoted 
characters eyes to the groundlessness of their beliefs.  My theory is 
that Petunia is a squib; that she'll be the character to find her 
magic later in life...

Kelley




From spottydog at worldnet.att.net  Sat Feb 10 16:54:16 2001
From: spottydog at worldnet.att.net (CARRIE MUNGAI)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:54:16 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <003001c09382$58e973e0$8a0b560c@carrie>

No: HPFGUIDX 11993

Hi, I have just signed up to join your group. I am a huge fan of the Harry Potter books, and am now starting to re-read them once again (I'm almost embarrassed to admit that this will be the eleventh time). I do not know how to get access to the discussion page. Does this come up when my membership is finalized? Thanks for your help. Spottydog.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 10 23:55:55 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:55:55 -0000
Subject: Writing to Jo
In-Reply-To: <86.6b58fd3.27b6f36a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <964keb+p2ri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11994

"Neptune" worte:
"Has anyone here written to Jo Rowling? I'm currently thinking about 
a letter but not sure what to write. I'm very intimidated about 
writing to celebrities because I  would hate to get the same message 
again and again and again. If you have  written,  how long did it 
take for a response?"

"Hedwig" wrote: 
"I would advise that if you are going to write, write simply because 
you want someone to read what you have written, and not in 
expectation of a response."

--Well you might not get a response, but I wouldn't completely rule 
it out. I know that Nick (where is he anyway?) has written and gotten 
a response from Jo. (One that comfirmed that Lily did indeed come out 
of the wand first. He even has her e-mail but wouldn't reveal it to 
the club-smart man!) If you send the letter via Bloomsbury or 
Scholastic you're probably not likely to get a response (However I 
suppose these are forwarded to her.)

You can send a letter to Jo at her office-

J.K. Rowling
P.O. Box 27036
Edinburgh
EH10 5WB
SCOTLAND

I sent her a Christmas card at this address. I know that Nick also 
sent her one from all of us at HPforGrownups.  I didn't expect or get 
a response to my Christmas card, but for a normal letter you may get 
something.

(I also have some feeling that Jo's office address has changed. Is 
the above the new or old address or am I imagining things?)

"Hedwig" wrote:
"It is likely that you will receive nothing at all. Many agencies 
have systems set up to reply to fan-mail and many times the 'star's' 
never even see such a letter. Sometimes you will get an autographed 
photo pulled from a stack of such for sending in a fan letter."

--Like I said I'm not sure what type of response you'll get, and even 
if you do get one it may come from Fiddy, Jo's secretary, and not 
from the Jo herself.

Scott




From annetteh11 at home.com  Sun Feb 11 00:09:40 2001
From: annetteh11 at home.com (Annette Harada)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:09:40 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as a baby?
References: <F51wr2UAaTzvb5YI9IJ0000ecd9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002301c093be$ed77e1e0$6401a8c0@greg>

No: HPFGUIDX 11995

I'll have to look it up, but have you noticed that no one says they went to
school with Lilly?  Several people remember her fondly, but I don't recall
any comments about her at school, and the comment about Voldemort's father
being a "muggle AND a full, very much like your mother" seems to through
some indecision in the matter.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as
a baby?


>
>
> >At 03:58 PM 2/10/01 +0000, annetteh11 at home.com wrote:
> >Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch or a
> >muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that she
> >was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a reference to
> >this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end of book 4,
> >when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort said how
> >alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....
>
>
>
> Ummm....Voldemort's mother was a witch, his dad was a Muggle.  His mother
> lived in the same village as his dad and fell in love with him, but he
left
> her when he found out she was a witch.  I think you are thinking of when
> Crouch Jr tells Harry how similar he and Voldemort are, with BAD fathers
who
> hated them and deserted them, who made them their namesakes.
>
> Also, He calls his father a "muggle and a fool, very like your dear
> mother..."
>
>
> Stephanie
> Who just read DS12 and am wishing I had DS13 ;)
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 11 00:08:10 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:08:10 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron & Quidditch
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEOOCPAA.klaatu@primenet.com> <3A85A115.3F3F5219@texas.net>
Message-ID: <008c01c093be$ce4b8920$ab3770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 11996

SML said:

"Why isn't Ron on the Quidditch team?  He's so avid about Quidditch; his
brothers Charlie, Fred, and George are/were all on the Gryffindor
team... Why, after four years, is Ron still sitting in the stands
during the games?

Amanda said:

"Ron's not on the team because he doesn't have a broom up to standard. So
far as we've seen, the players on the teams provide their own brooms,
however they obtain them."

BB said:

"I assumed he wasn't on the team because there hasn't been a
position opening. Wood graduated though, so maybe we'll see
him trying out in the next book."


I agree that Ron may have missed out simply because there hasn't been an
opening on the Gryffindor Quidditch side.  A school rule was bent so that
Harry could join the team in his first year and since then we have seen not
one change in the team.  They even played as a six-piece when Harry was
injured, which suggests that they don't have a subs bench.  I've mentioned
before that it seems strange that there isn't a Quidditch team for each year
of the school; IMO, the fact that there isn't supports the view that the
number of students is quite small and that Harry's year has barely enough
students for a single Quidditch team, let alone more good players.

In GoF, we would have seen a new player to replace Wood, but that wouldn't
necessarily have been Ron.  Leaving aside the ineligible "firs' years,"
there would be a pool of potential replacements from the second, third,
fifth, sixth and seventh years, not to mention Dean or Seamus from Ron's own
year (even Neville, but that seems unlikely).  Despite his wide-eyed
enthusiasm for the sport, we can't be sure that Ron has any talent for it.
There has been very little mention of his flying ability and there have been
no Quidditch lesson scenes since the one in which Harry was 'discovered'; we
see the Gryffindor Quidditch team in training, but we have hardly any clue
whether, or how well, the other students have continued with Hooch's
lessons.  Genuine talent in Quidditch seems to be a rare thing (which is why
Draco - despite having bought his way onto the team - needed to have the
talent).

I've just finished reading the part of PoA [Ch. 13] where Harry receives the
new Firebolt, and there is a poignant scene where he finally allows Ron to
"have a go" on the esteemed broom, following his practice session:-

"'Here you go,' said Harry, handing Ron the Firebolt.

Ron, an expression of ecstasy on his face, mounted the broom and zoomed off
into the gathering darkness while Harry walked around the edge of the pitch,
watching him."

Isn't that a moving scene?  It's almost as if Ron hardly dares dream of
playing team Quidditch himself, and is happy to grab and treasure moments
such as this.  Let's face it, if he'd really shown any talent, he'd have
been given a half-decent broom by some means, and one of the existing team
members would have been ousted from the team.  McGonagall and Wood were
almost rabid with excitement in PS when they realised they'd found a new
Seeker.  Despite having what appears to be a 'dream team,' I can't believe
they haven't both kept a close eye on other potential players over the
years.

In lieu of OotP, I can't wait for "Quidditch Through The Ages" - it might
give us more clues on Quidditch played at Hogwarts.

Neil
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!
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From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 00:11:23 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:11:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's Birthday?
In-Reply-To: <3A8594BE.92026F69@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <20010211001123.15560.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11997


--- Catlady <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> 
> > Possibly ask her whether
> Draco's birthday is June 24 (depending on whether I
> can stand to be
> proved wrong by the Author herself).
> 
Out of curiosity, what is the significance of June 24
(besides being St. John the Baptist's Day)?

__________________________________________________
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From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Feb 11 00:24:29 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:24:29 -0000
Subject: Caught in the Act! (was Ron & Quidditch)
In-Reply-To: <008c01c093be$ce4b8920$ab3770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <964m3t+jcgb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11998

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> A school rule was bent so that
> Harry could join the (Gryffindor house Quidditch) team in his first 
year and since then we have seen not
> one change in the team 
[snip]
> Leaving aside the ineligible "firs' years,"
> there would be a pool of potential replacements from the second, 
third,
> fifth, sixth and seventh years, not to mention Dean or Seamus from 
Ron's own
> year (even Neville, but that seems unlikely)


Hmmmmmmmm............. Neil, your logic seems to be based on a faulty 
assumption.  Have you caught it yet?  Yep, you assumed that only BOYS 
play Quidditch.  Lavender, Parvati and Hermione are just as eligible 
as Dean or Seamus for the team.  I wont call you any names because I 
adore you but I will sit in my little chair and chortle about how I 
caught Mr. Funny Guy Moderator making a you-know-what-type remark.  
Hehehehehehehehe.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Feb 11 00:32:03 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:32:03 -0000
Subject: Possible Error
Message-ID: <964mi3+gpra@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 11999

I found what I feel is (sort of) an error on JKRs part.  In SS/PS, 
chapter 5, the first time Harry goes to Diagon Alley, with Hagrid.  
They pass a witch selling dragon livers for 17 sickles an ounce 
(Theyre mad!).  This is on page 72 of the Scholastic PB edition.  
Several pages later (pg. 75 of the Scholastic PB edition) Hagrid 
explains to Harry how wizard money works - as we all know, there are 
29 bronze Knuts in a silver Sickle and 17 Sickles to a gold Galleon.  
But if 17 Sickles = 1 Galleon, why say that something cost 17 
sickles?  Isnt that like saying that something cost 100 cents?  I 
think this is an oversight on JKRs part.  And if you think I must be 
really insane and desperate to have been reduced to this level of 
nitpicking, you are absolutely right.

--Joywitch




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 00:50:35 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:50:35 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <963nu2+d0ce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <964nkr+cd0o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12000

Parker wrote:
"I agree with this assessment.  Snape seems to have a real gift for 
Potions (which I gather is rare) and he seems to me to be a 
Perfectionist.  I think that he likes teaching, but is perhaps 
frustrated that no one in his classes seems to have the patience or 
the talent to measure up to his rather exacting standards."

--It seems to be that Snape loves potions, but hates teaching. If 
indeed he is a perfectionist then maybe it is simply that he himself 
wants to understand potions more. Maybe he feels that he has more to 
learn and therefore isn't "worthy" of teaching it to others
...or maybe not.

Snape could feel that he isn't appreciated by most of his students 
(especially those from Gryffindor) and therefore feels even greater 
animosity toward them. Perhaps he is just so bitter toward life in 
general, and students in general that he can't apprieciate someone 
like Hermione who really wants to learn. (He just treats Slytherins 
better because?)

Hmmmm...as always when it comes to Snape I am left with more 
questions than answers. I guess that's just what makes him so 
interesting.

Scott




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Feb 11 00:50:48 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:50:48 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <9641tv+iosu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <964nl8+45nl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12001

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:

> I have to disagree here. This line of resoning would explain 
> (although never justify) his behaviour to Neville. But, if it were 
> true, then Snape would have ADORED Hermione, who is a wonderful 
> student - talented, knowledgeable, interested. Instead of which he 
> actively represses, ignores and insults her. 

	We've never heard Snape express his opinion of Muggle-borns, but 
if he doesn't like them, or is posing as someone who doesn't like them, 
then his treatment of Hermione is simply rooted in  prejudice. 
Pippin





From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 00:52:11 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:52:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Welcome back, Mr.Potter
Message-ID: <F262dbUu2o8q3p9PcwD00000c7a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12002

I remember noticed that too. However, I doubt Rowling would make a reference 
to the tv show "Welcome back, Mr. Kotter."  Maybe I am just a stupid 
American, but I doubt that show was popular enough to be aired in England.  
Its not even on syndacation here(Texas), even on Nick-at-Night.
Signe

Riet wrote:

>"Bless my soul," whispered the old barman. "Harry Potter ... what an
>honour."
>....."Welcome back, Mr Potter, welcome back."
>Does anybody know why Tom says "Welcome back", instead of just a hearty
>"Welcome"?
>Just curious.
>Hastily crawling back into lurkdom now...
>Riet


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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 11 00:56:15 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:56:15 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Caught in the Act! (was Ron & Quidditch)
References: <964m3t+jcgb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c201c093c5$6fee4320$ab3770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12003

Miss!! Miss!!!  Joywitch is picking on me!

> Hmmmmmmmm............. Neil, your logic seems to be based on a faulty
> assumption.  Have you caught it yet?  Yep, you assumed that only BOYS
> play Quidditch.  Lavender, Parvati and Hermione are just as eligible
> as Dean or Seamus for the team.  I wont call you any names because I
> adore you but I will sit in my little chair and chortle about how I
> caught Mr. Funny Guy Moderator making a you-know-what-type remark.
> Hehehehehehehehe.

Ooops!  I did sort of do that, didn't I - what *on earth* was I thinking?
[Bangs head on wall]

Okay, I deserve to be bound to a post, atop a pile of kindling, and burned
alive with flames.  Susan McGee will, no doubt, light the fire with a huge
torch while Joywitch sprinkles me liberally with petrol.  The rest of  you
can stand around in roughly-woven peasant clothing, pointing at me and
enjoying my demise.  Now, what was that Flame-Freezing charm...?

Actually, before you all pile on top of me, I must stress that I don't
dismiss the Gryffindor girls in Harry's year (in fact, I've said in the past
that I'd like to see Parvati on the team) and I was, obviously, including
all the students when I made the comment "Harry's year has barely enough
students for a single Quidditch team, let alone more good players."   I
guess I tend to consider the boys and girls as separate groups and just
forgot to mention the girls in that bit of my post. Gulp.

Neil
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (hiding in the forest)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

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From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sun Feb 11 01:13:45 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:13:45 -0000
Subject: British English help!
Message-ID: <964p09+krdj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12004

I've come across a term I don't quite understand in the UK edition, 
so maybe some nice person from 'across the pond' can help this 
American out.

In PS, Jo keeps talking about revisions in the terms of schoolwork.  
What is this?

Also, how long is summer vacation in a typical boarding school?  I 
get the impression for Hogwarts it's two months.  Is this normal?  

Thanks!

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 11 01:17:21 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:17:21 -0000
Subject: Caught in the Act! (was Ron & Quidditch)
In-Reply-To: <964m3t+jcgb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <964p71+b783@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12005

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:

> Yep, you assumed that only BOYS play Quidditch.  Lavender, Parvati
> and Hermione are just as eligible as Dean or Seamus for the team. 

Yes, but we believe that Hermione has no interest in being on the 
team, and we haven't seen Lavender or Parvarti show any interest or 
ability at Quidditch. That is partly why I proposed a hitherto 
unknown forth roommate in Hermione's dorm room as Wood's replacement.




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 01:20:53 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:20:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Weird Names
Message-ID: <F2504fDGCl9FopYC98B00000c50@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12006


Yeah, these names are bad and all, but my mom (former preschool director) 
had a student whose name spelled Sh*thead, but pronounced Sha-they-id.


>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nathan" <duo at d...> wrote:
> >
> > peaking of weird names, I have a friend named Baryon Tensor. His
>older
> > brother is Agham Bayan which means Science Nation. And his twin kid
>brothers
> > are Hector Atom and Vector Ion.
> > Yes, their parents are experimental physicists of great renown here.
>
>My mother, in her years of teaching elementary school, has come across
>some real all-stars. For instance (and I swear to God these are real):
>"Damage" (pronounced Dah-MAH-jay)
>"Female" (pronounced Feh-MAH-lee)
>...and my personal favorite...
>"Canine" (pronounced Ka-NEEN)
>Parents aren't exactly rocket scientists (or experimental physicists,
>for that matter).
>-Mike
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 01:29:03 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:29:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Heritage
Message-ID: <F281CdDP4PUiwNssdI200000c53@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12007

Maybe not everyone knows that Voldemort is half-Muggle.

Also, his mother was the witch, and his father was the Muggle.

What I want to know is how Voldemort was the heir to the Chamber of Secrets? 
  Ususally, the line is passed through the father's side and if that is so, 
how can he be the heir of Slytherin when his MOTHER was the witch?  Any 
ideas?

Signe


>Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch or a
>muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that she
>was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a reference to
>this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end of book 4,
>when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort said how
>alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....Another
>thing I noticed is that the Death Eaters are all violently anti mud
>blood, but why then would they support Voldemort if he had a muggle
>mother?
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 11 01:30:44 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:30:44 -0000
Subject: Possible Error
In-Reply-To: <964mi3+gpra@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <964q04+b800@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12008

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
 
> They pass a witch [complaining that the apothecary shop is]
> selling dragon livers for 17 sickles an ounce  (Theyre mad!).
> But if 17 Sickles = 1 Galleon, why say that something cost 17 
> sickles?  Isnt that like saying that something cost 100 cents?

I don't think it's an error. I think it is a sign of how large an 
amount of money a Galleon is ($25 in my theory -- as I am old, the 
dollars in my theory are from some past year when money was worth more 
than it is, so some people have corrected me to $35). People would 
speak of 100 cents or 101 cents if they thought of a cent as a 
valuable amount of money that would pay for postage on one letter 
or half a can of Coke and they thought of a dollar as a huge amount
of money to be used when discussing rich people or the price of real 
estate.




From morine10 at aol.com  Sun Feb 11 01:31:55 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:31:55 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Caught in the Act! (was Ron & Quidditch)
Message-ID: <de.10171506.27b7458b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12009


   > Yes, but we believe that Hermione has no interest in being on the 
> team, and we haven't seen Lavender or Parvarti show any interest or 
> ability at Quidditch. That is partly why I proposed a hitherto 
> unknown forth roommate in Hermione's dorm room as Wood's replacement.
> 

Don't count out Ginny.  For all we know, Charlie has shown her a thing or 
two. :)  

As for Ron, we don't know whether he is good or bad.  Just because he wasn't 
snapped up in his first year like Harry doesn't automatically make him (or 
anyone else) bad at Quidditch.  Harry is a phenomenal Seeker but I think luck 
played a big part in his getting to play his first year.  First, the slot was 
open and then Draco unwittingly helped to showcase his talent.  I wouldn't 
automatically assume that they would have pulled another player for Harry or 
anyone else.

There are many other possibilities of course, not just the soon-to-be fifth 
years.  

-Mo
Peace, Love, Harry Potter ~8^)

"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 01:33:23 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:33:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Heritage
Message-ID: <F246EFk2H3b98KtdhQY00000c39@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12010

Maybe not everyone knows that Voldemort is half-Muggle.

Also, his mother was the witch, and his father was the Muggle.

What I want to know is how Voldemort was the heir to the Chamber of Secrets? 
  Ususally, the line is passed through the father's side and if that is so, 
how can he be the heir of Slytherin when his MOTHER was the witch?  Any 
ideas?

Signe


>Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch or a
>muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that she
>was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a reference to
>this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end of book 4,
>when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort said how
>alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....Another
>thing I noticed is that the Death Eaters are all violently anti mud
>blood, but why then would they support Voldemort if he had a muggle
>mother?
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 11 01:34:42 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:34:42 -0000
Subject: British English help!
In-Reply-To: <964p09+krdj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <964q7i+kpvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12011

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:

> In PS, Jo keeps talking about revisions in the terms of schoolwork. 
> What is this?

I'm an American and can't help with boarding school summer holiday, 
but I was around back when it was explained that Brits say 
'revising' when Americans say 'studying' or 'reviewing' as well as 
when Americans say 'revising'.





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 11 01:36:53 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:36:53 -0000
Subject: OT: British English help!
References: <964p09+krdj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c093cb$1d89fb00$763370c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12012

Parker said:

"I've come across a term I don't quite understand in the UK edition, so
maybe some nice person from 'across the pond' can help this American out.
In PS, Jo keeps talking about revisions in the terms of schoolwork. What is
this?"

Rita is correct: Revision means to re-examine or read over work that you
have already done, usually in preparation for an exam or test.

"Also, how long is summer vacation in a typical boarding school?  I  get the
impression for Hogwarts it's two months.  Is this normal?"

I believe the school holidays are the same in boarding schools as they are
in all British schools - about 10 weeks.

Neil

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!
Read all the things you never knew you were doing wrong!
Avoid spending the rest of your rulebreakin' life as a ferret!":
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 11 01:40:11 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:40:11 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Heritage
In-Reply-To: <F281CdDP4PUiwNssdI200000c53@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <964qhr+8m2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12013

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Signe Cluiss" <signe_weasley at h...> wrote:
> Usually, the line is passed through the father's side and if that
> is so, how can he be the heir of Slytherin when his MOTHER was the
> witch?  

In Muggle Britain, a daughter can inherit when there are no sons (e.g. 
Queen Elizabeth II).

In wizarding Britain, the rules of inheritance might be quite 
different from the rules that Muggles use. Maybe *all* descendents of 
Slytherin are eligible to be the Heir of Slytherin, and then a magic 
device that contains Salazar's criteria for choosing an heir (like 
the Sorting Hat contains all the Founders' criteria for students) 
chooses one of these descendents to be the actual Heir. Maybe the 
inheritance goes to the oldest child regardless of gender. Maybe the 
inheritance goes to the oldest child of the opposite sex -- that 
would freak out the Muggles quite nicely.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 11 01:50:03 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:50:03 -0000
Subject: Draco's Birthday?
In-Reply-To: <20010211001123.15560.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <964r4b+gdpe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12014

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:

> Out of curiosity, what is the significance of June 24
> (besides being St. John the Baptist's Day)?

I want that whole flock of Death Eater kids (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, 
Nott, and hypothetical Lestrange) to be born in the summer, because 
of a theory that will be presented in Episode 5 of my Lilyfic. Then I 
thought about Draco from an astrological viewpoint -- I am not very 
good at astrology, but Gemini/Cancer cusp seemed good, which I 
figured would be around June 24, so then I web searched for an 
ephemeris for 1980 and found the following info for June 24, 1980, 
which seems to me to suit Draco very well:

Mo/Dy/Yr  Sun    Moon   Merc    Venu       Mars     Jupi     Satu
Uran      Nept   Plut
 6/24/80  3Cn06 17Sc00 24Cn31 19Ge05.21Vi17  5Vi02 21Vi06
22Sc01.20Sg58.18Li58.

(oops, it lost the columns when i copied and pasted)
it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me as Gemini/Cancer 
cusp)

Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!
Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed to indicate 
retrograde)

Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo






From sage016 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 01:52:36 2001
From: sage016 at yahoo.com (Kristen)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:52:36 -0000
Subject: new york times best sellers.
Message-ID: <964r94+hbsk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12015

yeah i realize this is a very old topic of debate but i have to bring 
it up again.  Today i was at barns and noble tooking at different 
fantasy series that could keep me busy until the new harry potter book 
came out.  The series i chose was the Redwall series by Brian Jacques.  
When i got home i looked on the back of the book and  i noticed it had 
a reading level on it.  this series is for kids between the ages of 
9-12.  I dont mind...the books are all over 300 pages and look like 
alot of fun.  the thing thats bothering me is they were all in the 
Adult section of barns and nobles...and i went back after dinner and 
they were no where to be found in the childrens section. ALSO every 
book (including the newest one) says New York Times Bestseller at the 
top.

i just dont think its fair.  




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sun Feb 11 02:31:30 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 02:31:30 -0000
Subject: British English help!
In-Reply-To: <964q7i+kpvp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <964ti2+1uu3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12016

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> 
> > In PS, Jo keeps talking about revisions in the terms of 
schoolwork. 
> > What is this?
> 
> I'm an American and can't help with boarding school summer holiday, 
> but I was around back when it was explained that Brits say 
> 'revising' when Americans say 'studying' or 'reviewing' as well as 
> when Americans say 'revising'.

Thanks, Rita!  I thought that's what it meant, but couldn't find it 
in *any* of my British/American dictionaries (grr!)

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sun Feb 11 02:33:34 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 02:33:34 -0000
Subject: OT: British English help!
In-Reply-To: <002401c093cb$1d89fb00$763370c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <964tlu+1uve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12017

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Parker said:
> 
> "I've come across a term I don't quite understand in the UK 
edition, so
> maybe some nice person from 'across the pond' can help this 
American out.
> In PS, Jo keeps talking about revisions in the terms of schoolwork. 
What is
> this?"
> 
> Rita is correct: Revision means to re-examine or read over work 
that you
> have already done, usually in preparation for an exam or test.
> 
> "Also, how long is summer vacation in a typical boarding school?  
I  get the
> impression for Hogwarts it's two months.  Is this normal?"
> 
> I believe the school holidays are the same in boarding schools as 
they are
> in all British schools - about 10 weeks.
> 
> Neil
> 
> _____________________________________
> 
> Flying-Ford-Anglia
> Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)
> 
> "Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]
> 
> Thanks, Neil--appreciate it.  Just for that, would you like to be 
in my fic?

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Feb 11 02:48:22 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:48:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Heritage
References: <F246EFk2H3b98KtdhQY00000c39@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c093d5$1aa34a40$aeeb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12018


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Signe Cluiss 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 8:33 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Heritage


  Maybe not everyone knows that Voldemort is half-Muggle.

  Also, his mother was the witch, and his father was the Muggle.

  What I want to know is how Voldemort was the heir to the Chamber of Secrets? 
    Ususally, the line is passed through the father's side and if that is so, 
  how can he be the heir of Slytherin when his MOTHER was the witch?  Any 
  ideas?

  Signe


  In CoS (I can't tell you exactly where, because I don't have my book) Riddle says that he is related to Salazar Slytherin through his mother.  Perhaps in the wizarding world, they are not so sexist as to claim that one can only inherit a title, privelege, or whatever only through the male line.


  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 02:44:39 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 02:44:39 -0000
Subject: Wizard diseases and food...
Message-ID: <964uan+is89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12019

We had a great discussion/debate a while ago about whether wizards 
are able to create their own food and such.  I seem to recall that we 
had collectively come to the conclusion that they couldn't, and if 
they did that the food would not stay but disappear after a certain 
length of time.

Now I wanted to ask- Did we ever decide if the food which wizards eat 
is provided by muggle suppliers or wizarding ones?  If it is provided 
by muggle suppliers then what happens to wizards that eat foods that 
could possibly expose them to Mad Cow Disease or other such things. 
What do they do if food is under cooked and they are exposed to 
salmonella (sp?) etc. 

Are they able to heal such diseases instantly? What about Cancer? 
HIV/AIDS? Have they been able to eliminate them through magic? Are 
there diseases and sicknesses that are unique to magic people?

Hmmmm, anybody want to jump in?

Scott




From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 03:21:21 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:21:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weird names  and reader/character identification
In-Reply-To: <963mgo+f9b6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010211032121.17349.qmail@web4704.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12020


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Just off the top of my head, Draco is the 
> only younger wizard with an unusual name.  Does this trend reflect
> a desire to blend in better with the Muggle world?  Or what?
> 

Maybe Draco is some kind of Malfoy family name. I think Millicent and
Blaise are both relatively unusual names, though. Maybe JKR didn't
want too many of her child characters to have strange names, it might
... isolate them from the younger readers, in a way? If you're nine
years old, it's easier to imagine havnig friends named Harry and
Neville and Lavender than having friends named Sirius or Narcissa.
The unusual names of the older generation keep them distanced from
the kids. 
Actually, the names appear to be more "common" the more the reader is
intended to identify with the character - the more sympathetic the
narative lays. We have lots of characters like Arthur and Molly and
Ron that Harry's close to, and more distant characters like Griphook,
or Cornelius. (Obviously there are sympathetic characters like Sirius
and Albus with unusual names, but they're not necessarily characters
that children would identify with) Am I making any sense? This might
be accidental on JKR's part, or a subconscious effect of giving more
familial characters familiar names, or me being totally off base. 

- Teek 

OT tangent: My parents went to school with a Donald Duck and a Candy
Cain (Pronouced Cane). No, I'm not joking. I go to school with Robert
DeNiro, and the manager of the local grocery is named Lydon B.
Johnson. 

__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
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From sage016 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 03:36:13 2001
From: sage016 at yahoo.com (Kristen)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 03:36:13 -0000
Subject: Wizard diseases and food...
In-Reply-To: <964uan+is89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9651bd+ut75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12021

I have mono right now....so if they can cure on the spot they need to 
hook me up! haha ;)

kristen


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:
> We had a great discussion/debate a while ago about whether wizards 
> are able to create their own food and such.  I seem to recall that 
we 
> had collectively come to the conclusion that they couldn't, and if 
> they did that the food would not stay but disappear after a certain 
> length of time.
> 
> Now I wanted to ask- Did we ever decide if the food which wizards 
eat 
> is provided by muggle suppliers or wizarding ones?  If it is 
provided 
> by muggle suppliers then what happens to wizards that eat foods that 
> could possibly expose them to Mad Cow Disease or other such things. 
> What do they do if food is under cooked and they are exposed to 
> salmonella (sp?) etc. 
> 
> Are they able to heal such diseases instantly? What about Cancer? 
> HIV/AIDS? Have they been able to eliminate them through magic? Are 
> there diseases and sicknesses that are unique to magic people?
> 
> Hmmmm, anybody want to jump in?
> 
> S




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Sun Feb 11 03:42:27 2001
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:42:27 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 561
Message-ID: <4c.10a0d406.27b76423@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12022

Rita said: 

<< Mo/Dy/Yr  Sun    Moon   Merc    Venu       Mars     Jupi     Satu
Uran      Nept   Plut
 6/24/80  3Cn06 17Sc00 24Cn31 19Ge05.21Vi17  5Vi02 21Vi06
22Sc01.20Sg58.18Li58.

(oops, it lost the columns when i copied and pasted)
it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me as Gemini/Cancer 
cusp)

Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!
Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed to indicate 
retrograde)
Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo >>

Can you please elaborate on what this signifies? I must have fallen asleep in Professor Sinistra's astonomy lesson.

Ellie



From rina at love-productions.com  Sun Feb 11 03:39:39 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:39:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard diseases/disabilities 
Message-ID: <00a201c093dc$4fcd0ba0$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12023

Scott asked:

<< Are they able to heal such diseases instantly? What about Cancer? 
HIV/AIDS? Have they been able to eliminate them through magic? Are 
there diseases and sicknesses that are unique to magic people?>>

You know, this is something I've been wondering about myself. My mom and I were talking about this last week, and we realized that if Hogwarts was a real place, my little brother couldn't go. He uses an augmentative communication device called a DynaMyte to speak - it's like a portable touchscreen computer. So, obviously, electricity and such is needed for it, and Hermione tells us things that work on electricity go haywire at Hogwarts. So would they exclude Josh even if he was magical, or is there some kind of spell or alternative magical device he could use? Kinda interesting to think about how they would deal with that. And can you sign spells and have them work? As long as they were one handed signs, the wand wouldn't be a problem.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 11 03:46:44 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:46:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard diseases and food...
References: <964uan+is89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A860B24.29F848FD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12024

Scott wrote:

> Now I wanted to ask- Did we ever decide if the food which wizards eat
> is provided by muggle suppliers or wizarding ones?  If it is provided
> by muggle suppliers then what happens to wizards that eat foods that
> could possibly expose them to Mad Cow Disease or other such things.
> What do they do if food is under cooked and they are exposed to
> salmonella (sp?) etc.
>
> Are they able to heal such diseases instantly? What about Cancer?
> HIV/AIDS? Have they been able to eliminate them through magic?

Wizards, although long-lived, are apparently vulnerable to the aging
process and will eventually die. I imagine that there's diseases they
can't eradicate yet, as well. Their bodies function the same way ours
do--they are the same species, after all. If there is a "magic gene"
which accounts for their longevity, perhaps it gives them a greater
ability to resist disease; alternately, if it is simply the exposure to
magic over a long period of time which makes them live longer, that,
too, might affect how susceptible they are to disease. But they do get
diseases, which brings me to..

> Are there diseases and sicknesses that are unique to magic people?

Lycanthropy, werewolfism, springs to mind. Given one resounding yes, I'd
imagine there's more.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Feb 11 04:00:07 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 04:00:07 -0000
Subject: Who'll be a prefect?
In-Reply-To: <3A7E1291.5A94E84E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9652o7+g8a7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12025

> Prefects are like junior officers, right? Little administrative 
aides?
> I'm not real clear on just what else their role entails, and that 
would
> have a lot to do with who is chosen to fill it....
> 
> --Amanda

Amanda, I found this old, old post from John Walton that gives good 
information on prefects.  Hope he doesn't mind my reposting it.

John Magee at jemagee1 at h... said:

>> From what i've red in the books, i believe that prefect is kinda 
like advanced hall monitor (for us folks in the states)
> Each house has a prefect whose responsibility it is to make sure 
all the rules are followed, etc...
> Maybe kinda like an RA in college?
> But I still don't know what a head boy is.<<

John wrote:
::flexes those public school memories::

Right. At my school, you had two flavours of Prefect: House and School
Prefects. The House Prefects were Upper Sixth (final year) students 
who
could be trusted to take "duty". This involved (before lessons) 
making sure
that all Matron's (the House nurse, laundry organiser, tidiness witch 
and
general sweetie) lists, tasks, etc had been done by the junior boys 
listed
to write/carry/collect/etc them, make sure that the school bell was 
rung,
and doublecheck that there were no skivers hiding in rooms.

At break time (morning recess), the duty House Prefect ensured that 
nobody
killed each other in gladness to be out of lessons, and that they 
were all
on their way in time for the remaining three lessons before lunch. 
After
lunch, if there were lessons, he did the same.

Before prep (homework time), he would make sure that the bell was 
rung and
report into the duty tutor (one of the four teachers assigned to the 
House
as assistants to the Housemaster). Since it was hopeless to get any 
work
done when you were on duty, the hour and three-quarters of prep would 
be
spent making sure that nobody was running around disturbing others, 
checking
that Matron had nothing needing doing, and generally making sure that 
the
House was quiet for the duration.

After prep, the read out the names of all non-Upper Sixth students to 
make
sure they were attending the Roll-call (house assembly). Matron's, 
Tutor's
and, if any, Housemaster's messages followed, and then the House was 
free to
go outside until ten minutes before their bedtimes. The Prefect was 
expected
to remain in the Common Room or his study for the evening in case he 
was
required. After turning the juniors' lights out at the appropriate 
time:

9:30 for Third Formers (age 13)
9:45 for Fourth Formers (age 14)
10:00 for Fifth Formers (age 15).

The Lower and Upper Sixth formers were assumed to be able to turn 
their
lights out at a sensible time. (Ha.) The Prefect made sure that all 
internal
corridor and external lights were turned off, the doors locked, and 
that the
House was quiet. He then handed the duty clipboard (with namelists,
checklists etc) into the Tutor on duty and was then off-duty.

Almost everyone was made a Prefect, for the simple reason that it 
wasn't all
that hard, and the more Prefects you had the fewer times you had to 
do duty.
The only people excluded were those caught too many times with (a) 
drink (b)
cigarettes or (c) young ladies.

Once a year, each Prefect also had to do a School Duty Week (see 
below).

As for School Prefects, these were much more select. Made up of at 
least one
person from each House (the Head of House, responsible for the well-
being,
conduct etc of the entire House), plus the Head of School (called 
Head Boy
at Hogwards, and is the senior student, reporting directly to the 
Headmaster
and generally being responsible for everything), Deputy Head of School
(self-explanatory) and five or so other School Prefects chosen for 
their
moral fibre, intelligence, good looks (okay, so I'm digressing here).

As a School Prefect, you were expected to take at least one, possibly 
a
second, duty week per term (three terms). This involved doing the 
Bible
readings in Assembly and Church (unless you weren't Christian, in 
which case
someone else did it), supervising Assembly and Church (with your two 
House
Prefects on duty), making sure that the whole school got to lessons 
on time
(also with your two House Prefects), supervising mealtimes -- making 
sure no
food was thrown around, nobody gave the kitchen staff a hard time 
etc -- and
generally being around school as a point of contact and the Busybody 
of the
Week. 

You were backed up by a Duty Teacher, who usually got to choose their
Prefect. It was a distinct hassle, but you got the recognition of 
having a
delightfully garish silver tie with green, blue, yellow and maroon 
stripes
(oh yes), symbolising the House Colours, which clashed with 
everything,
including itself.

All School Prefects also attended a weekly meeting in the Headmaster's
study, in which we were told what exciting, important events were 
happening
over the week. Stereotypically, it went like this:

Second Master (=Dean), a very Welsh man: "Right now, we've got 
Assembly on
Monday, followed by a Rugby Match against Sherborne (another school) 
in the
afternoon. Please be vigilant while watching for profanity. All names 
to Mr
X, who's the duty master. On Tuesday we have a Chess Match with 
Millfield
(another school), as well as a Senior Lecture in the main Hall. 
Please make
sure suits and white shirts are worn to that. There is an Assembly on
Wednesday, as well as the long activity period in the afternoon. 
Please move
loiterers on back to their houses. There is a Guest Speaker at Church 
on
Thursday, and the Catering Manager is planning an American Theme Day. 
Please
be extra-vigilant during lunch. There is a Junior Schools' Hockey 
Tournament
here on Friday, so encourage junior members of your Houses to attend. 
It is
a Long Weekend this weekend, so names of those going out must be 
given to me
by Thursday evening for confirmation. Headmaster, anything from you?"

At this point, our rabidly conservative Headmaster would begin to 
lambast
against any slippage in standards he had observed over the last week.
Scruffy tie knots, untucked shirts, scuffed shoes, dirty blazers, 
chewing
gum stuck to chairs...the list was endless -- and endlessly boring. 
We'd
discuss it, come to absolutely no conclusion of action to be taken, 
and
disperse for another week.

Of course, it was a great honour to be recognised as one of the 
leaders of
your year as a School Prefect, and did wonders for all of our 
university
applications (I say "our" because I was a Head of House). Every one 
of us
got offers from at least five of our six universities which we had 
applied
to, and we do all keep in touch.

I've just realised that this is now three pages long, so I'll stop. 
Feel
free to email me or the list with further questions.

--John, who doesn't *look* all that much like a public schoolboy...

=========================================
John Walton, JohnWalton at b...
AIM: Dirien, ICQ: 43764903

Typing from Nadezhda the grape-flavored iMac

Most recent movie: "Fire, Ice and Dynamite"
Current Computer CD: "Westminster Abbey Anthems".
Current book: "The Great Gatsby" by F. Scott Fitzgerald.
Current computer ornaments: An orange fluffy lion.
Currrent fave website: Far Jordan Weyr (Pern RPG):
http://home.earthlink.net/~prejay/fjw/





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Feb 11 04:08:13 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:08:13 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Heritage
In-Reply-To: <F246EFk2H3b98KtdhQY00000c39@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010210195508.02de0310@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12026

At 07:33 PM 2/10/01 -0600, Signe Cluiss wrote:
>What I want to know is how Voldemort was the heir to the Chamber of Secrets?
>   Ususally, the line is passed through the father's side and if that is so,
>how can he be the heir of Slytherin when his MOTHER was the witch?  Any
>ideas?

I think JKR has made it clear that the Wizarding World discovered feminism
at least 2000 years before the Muggles did... Otherwise Hogwarts would have
been founded by Goderic Gryffindor and Salazaar Slytherin, while Helga
Hufflepuff and Rowena Ravenclaw stayed home baking treacle fudge
and having Tupper-Caldron parties.  So, I think it's safe to say that in the
Wizarding World lines of succession pass through both sexes... Therefore,
there is also an heir of Hufflepuff (Cedric?) and of Ravenclaw (Penelope?).



                                                 -- Dave




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Feb 11 04:41:48 2001
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:41:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 561
Message-ID: <v02140b8ab6abc7cff51c@[140.254.113.133]>

No: HPFGUIDX 12027

>
Message: 24
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:52:36 -0000
   From: "Kristen" <sage016 at yahoo.com>
Subject: new york times best sellers.

yeah i realize this is a very old topic of debate but i have to bring
it up again.  Today i was at barns and noble tooking at different
fantasy series that could keep me busy until the new harry potter book
came out.  The series i chose was the Redwall series by Brian Jacques.
When i got home i looked on the back of the book and  i noticed it had
a reading level on it.  this series is for kids between the ages of
9-12.  I dont mind...the books are all over 300 pages and look like
alot of fun.  the thing thats bothering me is they were all in the
Adult section of barns and nobles...and i went back after dinner and
they were no where to be found in the childrens section. ALSO every
book (including the newest one) says New York Times Bestseller at the
top.
>

GASP!  You went to...Barnes and Noble!!!!  Hee hee.  I work at Borders, so
there's a natural rivalry.

The Redwall series is classified as Young Adult fiction, which isn't
technically part of the Kids' section (in our store it's outside the kids
section but nearby) and also includes books like Bridge to Terabithia and
Holes by Louis Sachar.  The Philip Pullman His Dark Materials series is
also in this category.  However, I have noticed a few of the hardcover
Jacques books classified as Science Fiction (which I shelve).  This
category confusion is also a problem for Pullman...the hardcover and
quality paperback of his books are Science Fiction but the mass-market
paperbacks (little el cheapo ones) are Young Adult.  Go figure.

The HP series, on the other hand, is Intermediate Fiction which IS part of
the Kids' department.  Young Adult is 12 and up, Intermediate is 9-12.

Lori, bookseller extraordinaire




**************************************************
Lori   "How Much Would You Pay"  Summers

     "That Hieronymous Bosch.  What a weirdo."
                --Crowley, "Good Omens"

Last movie seen:  "Run Lola Run"
Discman's spinning:  "Pleasantville" soundtrack
Nighttable:  "HP and the Goblet of Fire" UK edition
***************************************************





From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Feb 11 05:04:45 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:04:45 -0700
Subject: Wizard diseases ....AND injuries 
In-Reply-To: <964uan+is89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEFADAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12028

Obviously, they can't cure bad eyesight,
since so many of them seem to wear glasses!

I wonder if Hermione's parents are ever informed about the dangers she has
experienced.  For instance, when she was petrified for weeks in 'Chamber of
Secrets' -- did her parents get notified?  How much do you think Hermione
tells them?


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:harry_potter00 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 7:45 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard diseases and food...


Are they able to heal such diseases instantly? What about Cancer?
HIV/AIDS? Have they been able to eliminate them through magic? Are
there diseases and sicknesses that are unique to magic people?

Hmmmm, anybody want to jump in?

Scott





From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 05:28:08 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Ginny Love)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:28:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Draco's Birthday
In-Reply-To: <981858694.1242.11768.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010211052808.21149.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12029

<raises eyebrows> does it not stand to reason that
Draco was born when something-or-other was in the
constilation of Draco the Dragon?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 05:33:37 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 05:33:37 -0000
Subject: Digest Number 561
In-Reply-To: <v02140b8ab6abc7cff51c@[140.254.113.133]>
Message-ID: <96587h+eg17@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12030

Lori wrote:
"GASP!  You went to...Barnes and Noble!!!!  Hee hee.  I work at 
Borders, so there's a natural rivalry."

--Does it count that I have a B&N nearby but no Borders?

Lori also wrote:
"The Redwall series is classified as Young Adult fiction, which isn't
technically part of the Kids' section (in our store it's outside the 
kids section but nearby) and also includes books like Bridge to 
Terabithia and Holes by Louis Sachar. The Philip Pullman His Dark 
Materials series is also in this category.  Young Adult is 12 and up, 
Intermediate is 9-12."

--"Bridge to Terabithia" is young adult? I read that book in my 4th 
grade language arts class (I think).  Wonderful children's book by 
the way!

Scott




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 05:57:09 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 05:57:09 -0000
Subject: Lily - Snape & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <002301c093be$ed77e1e0$6401a8c0@greg>
Message-ID: <9659jl+mcft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12031

Annette wrote:
> I'll have to look it up, but have you noticed that no one says they 
went to
> school with Lilly?  Several people remember her fondly, but I don't 
recall
> any comments about her at school, and the comment about Voldemort's 
father
> being a "muggle AND a full, very much like your mother" seems to 
through
> some indecision in the matter.

Hagrid didn't go to school with her (he was much older) but he tells 
Harry quite specifically when they first meet that James AND Lily went 
to Hogwarts (head boy and girl) and that they were a very powerful 
wizard and witch.  Lily was like Hermione:  Muggle-born, but a 
talented witch.  Muggle-born doesn't mean you start out life without 
magical talent; it means your parents are both Muggles.

Perhaps the confusion has to do with not only Voldemort & Co., but 
even the narration talking about "blood" as an explanation?  i.e. I 
think it's at the start of CS that "Muggle" is defined as "someone 
with not a drop of magical blood" (that's from memory, correct me if 
I'm miscontruing).  This can be a little confusing, since we Muggles, 
with our odd ideas about race, are in the habit of thinking of "blood" 
as something that goes by fractions, as in "she's half white, half 
black."  But the canon is quite clear on the fact that magical talent 
may be largely inherited (a matter of "blood," so to speak), but also 
pops up out of nowhere (in the case of Muggle-born witches/wizards) 
and can be totally absent in people whose ancestors are mostly magical 
(in the case of Squibs).

Here's a question:  can a wizard tell, just by looking at someone, 
whether he/she's Muggle, magical, Muggle-born, etc.?  In GF ("The 
Quidditch World Cup") Lucius knows that Hermione is Muggle-born.  How? 
 Did he learn who she was in CS, maybe in the bookshop, and I'm 
forgetting?  (I have GOT to buy the books.)  Or maybe because Draco 
has talked about her, as we know from the scene in Borgin & Burke's, 
LM assumes the girl with the Weasleys in the Top Box must be that 
Granger girl?

Re: Snape's teaching and why he hates Hermione:  maybe it hasn't much 
to do with Harry; maybe he just hates a "know-it-all" (not that I'm 
agreeing with this characterization of Hermione).  Teachers do tend to 
love hardworking students, but they can also hate the most hardworking 
and talented students; I've seen it many a time.

Amy Z 

--------------------------------------------------------
"I'm *not* going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
"That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
                      -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------------




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 11 06:02:58 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:02:58 -0800
Subject: Wizarding/Muggle Food - Wizarding/Muggle Disease
Message-ID: <3A862B11.E66B661E@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12032

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:
> We had a great discussion/debate a while ago about whether wizards
> are able to create their own food and such.  I seem to recall that
> we had collectively come to the conclusion that they couldn't, and
> if they did that the food would not stay but disappear after a
> certain length of time.

I think the rest of this list agreed that wizarding folk can't create
food ex nihilo or even by transfiguration, but at best can summon it
from elsewhere. I am not convinced -- I think that wizards who have
enough power and know the right spells can create food, at least by
transfiguration. I think 'enough power' is Molly Weasley level, not
Albus Dumbledore level.
>
> Now I wanted to ask- Did we ever decide if the food which wizards
> eat is provided by muggle suppliers or wizarding ones?

No, we never did decide.

If it comes from Muggle farmers, at what point does it cross over to the
wizarding world: does Mrs. Weasley (for example) shop at a Muggle
supermarket, or does she go to wizarding greengrocer and butcher shops?
Do the owners of wizarding greengrocer and butcher shops go to the same
wholesale markets as owners of Muggle greengrocer and butcher shops? Or
is there a wizarding food wholesaler to interact with the Muggle food
producers / importers?

It is pleasant to think it comes from wizarding farmers who sell it at
wizarding farmers' markets, so the restaurateurs and homemakers must
shop in that narrow time window that the market is taking place. Of
course, there could still be wizarding greengrocers and butchers who
shop at the farmers' market for resale.

If the food comes from wizarding farmers, the wizarding folk wouldn't
have to form an opinion about whether they're willing to eat genetically
modified food, meat from hormone and/or antibiotic treated animals,
which pesticides they don't mind having on their food.

> If it is provided by muggle suppliers then what happens to wizards
> that eat foods that could possibly expose them to Mad Cow Disease
> or other such things. What do they do if food is under cooked and
> they are exposed to salmonella (sp?) etc.

I feel sure that magic can sterilize food of all unwholesome germs, with
just a wand wave before cooking starts.  After all, where is there
anything in literature about wizards or witches or mages dying of Muggle
food-borne diseases or even coming down with Montezuma's revenge? It's
the modern, human-designed enhancements to food that the wizarding folk
haven't had centuries and millennia to develop spells to cure.

> Are they able to heal such diseases instantly? What about Cancer?
> HIV/AIDS? Have they been able to eliminate them through magic? Are
> there diseases and sicknesses that are unique to magic people?

I believe that magic can cure all Muggle type physical diseases by
magic, altho' some of them would require a very powerful mage to cure
and some could be cured only slowly.  Wizarding folk die from old age,
violence, curses, or magical diseases.

Some of the magical diseases are the ones that modern Muggles are too
sophisticated to believe in, like broken hearts, lovesickness, rotting
your liver by drinking yourself to death...

Btw, I believe that anti-STD Charms are quick and easy, as are
Contraceptive Charms. And there has been some discussion on this list of
people struggling with infertility -- I am sure that witches have very
effective fertility charms.  Conception, healthy babies, contraception,
abortion, and seduction were what magic was invented for in the first
place, historically.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> Obviously, they can't cure bad eyesight,
> since so many of them seem to wear glasses!
>
So many of them wear glasses because the literature shows so many
wizards wearing glasses, and the literature shows so many wizards
wearing glasses because the Muggle authors can't think of an old man or
woman who reads a lot of prints in tiny print and/or handwriting without
glasses. But fixing bad eyesight by magic should be so much easier than
regrowing missing bones or shrinking teeth (Muggles can fix several
kinds of bad eyesight by surgery, except that I would NEVER let anyone
put a knife in my eye!). Maybe the real reason for wizarding folk
wearing glasses is that the glasses are magic, maybe allowing the wearer
to see auras or something else normally invisible, maybe preventing the
wearer from seeing through other people's clothes or casting the Evil
Eye.

Harry doesn't know that bad eyesight can be fixed by magic, and no one
ever tells him because they all think he already knows, and the
wizarding ones think his eyeglasses are the magic kind.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rina Stewart" <rina at l...> wrote:
> My mom and I were talking about this last week, and we realized that
if
> Hogwarts was a real place, my little brother couldn't go. He uses an
> augmentative communication device called a DynaMyte to speak - it's
> like a portable touchscreen computer. So, obviously, electricity and
> such is needed for it, and Hermione tells us things that work on
> electricity go haywire at Hogwarts. So would they exclude Josh even if

> he was magical, or is there some kind of spell or alternative magical
> device he could use? Kinda interesting to think about how they would
> deal with that. And can you sign spells and have them work? As long as

> they were one handed signs, the wand wouldn't be a problem.

I'm sure they could give him some magic artifact to speak for him (maybe
even give him a magic voice in his own mouth).  The Sorting Hat is an
artifact and it speaks, so surely he could have something that looks
like a whistle that he could put in his mouth like a whistle except it
talks instead of screeching like a whistle.

On another tentacle, with all the things that I am SURE magic can do,
why can't it do at least what cosmetic surgery can do? Why do so many
wizarding folk go around looking ugly, even young girls who cry their
eyes out (is that another magical disease, in which the fallen eyes must
be found where they fell on the floor and rolled under the bed, so that
they can be put back in place?) because 'peers' taunt them for ugliness,
like Moaning Myrtle? Either Beauty is much harder to create than Health,
or maybe magic isn't as effective as I am sure it is.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 06:10:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:10:13 -0000
Subject: Gryffindor's moral superiority (was Caught in the Act!)
In-Reply-To: <00c201c093c5$6fee4320$ab3770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <965ac5+pd64@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12033

Neil, I can't speak for every Feminist for Harry Potter, but as one of 
them, I hereby offer you absolution.  You seem sincerely repentant.  
Just say 10 Hail Hermiones for the next seven days and light a candle 
at the altar of St. Minerva and your sin will be washed away.

I do think that the presence of girls on the Gryffindor team is meant 
to be another point in Gryffindor's favor, especially in contrast to 
Slytherin, which as JKR makes a point of telling us, has no girls on 
its team.  Clearly, any team that thus cuts its possible pool in half 
is shooting itself in the foot.  Both World Cup finalist teams have 
women on them.

JKR falls into sexist stereotyping now and then, but she should get 
lotsa kudos for dreaming up a coed team sport, something almost 
nonexistent in Muggle pro sports.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------
"This is the weirdest thing we've ever
done," Harry said fervently.
       --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
----------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 06:35:15 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:35:15 -0000
Subject: Eyesight
In-Reply-To: <3A862B11.E66B661E@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <965br3+rce3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12034

Catlady wrote:

> So many of them wear glasses because the literature shows so many
> wizards wearing glasses, and the literature shows so many wizards
> wearing glasses because the Muggle authors can't think of an old man 
or
> woman who reads a lot of prints in tiny print and/or handwriting 
without
> glasses. 

Are you suggesting that JKR is a Muggle?!  Perish the thought!

Okay, let's say your basic eye problems (near- and far-sightedness, 
etc.) are curable by magic.  So:

Why does Harry wear glasses?  Because no one's told him they can 
clear up his myopia for him with a flick of a wand.

Why does Dumbledore wear glasses?  Because his are magical (maybe 
they're the way he sees through Invisibility Cloaks?).

Why does McGonagall wear glasses?  Because the Ministry of Magic 
demands that registered Animagi adopt something (clothing, hairstyle, 
accessories) in human form that will remind others of their markings 
in animal form.

Why does Percy wear glasses?  Because they make him look smart.

Why did James wear glasses?  Okay, I'm out of excuses.  Anyone?

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
Dudley thought for a moment.  It looked like hard work.
            --Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 06:36:22 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:36:22 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <964nkr+cd0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <965bt6+frsm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12035

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:
<snip>
> 
> Snape could feel that he isn't appreciated by most of his students 
> (especially those from Gryffindor) and therefore feels even greater 
> animosity toward them. Perhaps he is just so bitter toward life in 
> general, and students in general that he can't apprieciate someone 
> like Hermione who really wants to learn. (He just treats Slytherins 
> better because?)

I guess it's that vicious circle situation. Snape is unpleasant, so 
his students don't like him, which makes him even more bitter and 
sarcastic, which makes the students dislike him even more... Snape 
just isn't the sort of fellow to take the lessons of "How to win 
friends and influence people" to heart. 
Although, we haven't seen how Snape behaves in front of the (just 
speculating here) combined Ravenclaw-Hufflepuff classes. Maybe he's 
less extreme there. I would guess that his behavior towards Harry is 
a unique thing. I keep thinking there must be more to his history 
with James than the werewolf incident. 

Amy Z wrote:  
"Re: Snape's teaching and why he hates Hermione:  maybe it hasn't 
much to do with Harry; maybe he just hates a "know-it-all" (not that 
I'm agreeing with this characterization of Hermione).  Teachers do 
tend to love hardworking students, but they can also hate the most 
hardworking and talented students; I've seen it many a time."

I could see that too, which would explain his dislike of her even 
before she got to be friends with Harry. Perhaps he sees in her the 
students whom he resented during his school days, or, more darkly, he 
doesn't like even his negative prognostications contradicted by 
reality. That is, he predicts that he will be disappointed by his 
students. Hermione, diligent and passionate about learning, pops up. 
Snape is disappointed that he didn't get to be disappointed. (Boy, my 
speculation leads to a characterization of as Snape a rather 
dysfunctional, self destructive individual. On the other hand, all 
this focusing on his school days does sound rather warped.)

Argh. All these discussions just make me want Book Five even more. 
(sigh)

Charmian




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 11 06:46:26 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:46:26 -0800
Subject: Draco's Birthday  /  Feminism
Message-ID: <3A863541.EAA4A982@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12036

Ginny Love <Slytherin_Daughter at y...> wrote:
> <raises eyebrows> does it not stand to reason that
> Draco was born when something-or-other was in the
> constilation of Draco the Dragon?

Yes, except that as far as I know Draco the Dragon is not on the
ecliptic (the path through the sky on which all the planets (moving
objects) travel) and therefore never has a planet in it.

Ellimist wrote:
>Can you please elaborate on what this signifies? I must have
> fallen asleep in Professor Sinistra's astronomy lesson.
> > it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me as
> > Gemini/Cancer cusp)

I am NOT GOOD at astrology. If I were, I would draw the horoscope and
see the aspects (the angles between planet and planet). But here goes.

The Sun Sign is the one that is listed in newspaper horoscope columns.
It reveals some generalizations about your personality that can be much
changed by the other planets (and especially by the Ascendant, which
depends on the time of day that you were born). Gemini/Cancer cusp is
the border between Gemini (late May - early June) and Cancer (late
June-early July). Gemini, the Twins, is ruled by Mercury, and therefore
Geminis are Mercurial: charming, good talkers, changeable, unreliable
(or worse), and frequent travellers and Gemini as a double sign has a
tendency to be pulled in two directions (for Pisces, another double
sign, the two directions are often 'spirituality or worldly success').
Cancer is is ruled by the Moon and therefore inclined to secrecy (I
would like to say sneakiness and underhandedness, but should not judge
all Moon Children (that's the euphemism) by my stepmother). They are
said to be also artistic, drawn to the occult, and homemakers.

Charming - good talker - changeable - unreliable - a flyer - torn
between good and evil - secretive, sneaky, and underhanded = it should
be obvious why I think this is a good place for Cassie's Draco.

> > Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!

The Moon tells about your unconscious mind.  Scorpio (my Sun sign) is
involved with some very powerful emotions: sex, lust, and love, grudges
and revenge, that kind of stuff. My astrologer friend claims that he is
tortured by his Moon in Scorpio: 'Moon in Scorpio is too much of a good
thing, it's like Freudian unconscious squared.',

> > Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
> > Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (retrograde)
> > Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo

I already talked about Mercury's nature, and having it in Cancer
reinforces all that stuff about Gemini/Cancer cusp. Venus indicates
love, beauty, and femininity and is considered to be good luck.
Retrograde (that means it looks like it's going backwards in the sky:
that is an optical illusion caused by Earth passing it because it is an
inner planet) means that stuff is messed up. Being in Gemini reinforces
what I already said about Gemini.

Mars has to do with fighting and masculinity. The secret code part also
said Jupiter at 5 degrees of Virgo and Saturn at 21 degrees Virgo.
Jupiter has to do with wealth and power and is considered to be a very
lucky star. Saturn has to do with difficulties and death and is
considered unlucky.

The nature of Virgo is to be a blue-nosed perfectionist (IIRC Hermione
is at the end of Virgo). My friend had a very difficult father who was a
Virgo and she liked the quote about Virgos: "Perfection is barely good
enough."

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
>I think JKR has made it clear that the Wizarding World
> discovered feminism at least 2000 years before the Muggles
> did... Otherwise Hogwarts would have been founded by
> Godric Gryffindor and Salazaar Slytherin, while Helga
> Hufflepuff and Rowena Ravenclaw stayed home baking
> treacle fudge and having Tupper-Caldron parties.

Western Civilisation was a great deal more feminist 2000 years ago than
it was 1000 years ago.  2000 years ago, Hypatia of Alexandria, a woman,
was widely respected as a mathematician and philosopher and ran a school
until a Christian mob killed her because their Bible forbade women to
teach men. The encyclopedia article on Hypatia is extremely sensitive
not to badmouth Christians and said that that mob had been stirred up
against her by a bishop who wanted property she had, and other
Christians, including some philosopher named St. somebody, were good
friends of hers.

1000 years was when Hogwarts was founded, a time when women did not have
many legal rights (and no one had many real rights unless they could
afford expensive swords and had muscles to thump people with those
swords), but IIRC even then there were female saints who somehow managed
to found orders of nuns..
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Sun Feb 11 07:01:19 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:01:19 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledore (you know you love it) (was fanletters - Lucius' age - #students - Remus Middle Name - Snape and Dumbledore
Message-ID: <01C09455.2C6DD3A0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12037

Catlady said:
" Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> It is probably part of the tragedy of Snape's character (snip)
> that he, for whatever reason, must teach and doesn't like it,

When it comes to speculating WHY he must teach, one possible theory is
that he must stay at Hogwarts (do we ever see him even go to Hogsmeade?)
to be safe from vengeance by free-walking Death Eaters who know he was
the spy, and the only way he can stay at Hogwarts is as an employee.

A more misanthropic theory of why Snape must stay at Hogwarts (which, as
above, he can do only by holding a teaching position there) is if
Snuffles Storm is right about Severus and Albus being a couple. I said
'misanthropic' because it would not speak well of the much-admired
Dumbledore to stick the kids with a bad teacher just to give his nepot a
job."


Ooohh I had to look up nepot I've never seen that form of the word, and 
strictly speaking I'm not thinking he is Albus' nephew (the whole incest thing 
is not on for me).

I would *never* think Albus would subject children to Severus in order to 
ensure easy access to Snape. He has far too much integrity. I disagree that 
Snape must teach to stay at Hogwarts: Hogwarts is a big place and Dumbledore 
could have found something for Snape to do that didn't involve student contact 
if this was the case.

Besides they got together *after* Snape become confined to Hogwarts for his own 
safety. I'm thinking (apologies to all those who fantasize about Snape) it 
would take some time of knowing cannon Snape to be able to appreciate his well 
hidden good qualities. Oh dear! part of the story in my head about their 
relationship is that it was the beginning of the relationship that bought Snape 
back to the bright, argh, a contradiction. I'll have to think about this some 
more ......

Storm

-----Original Message-----




From annetteh11 at home.com  Sun Feb 11 07:22:32 2001
From: annetteh11 at home.com (Annette Harada)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:22:32 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily - Snape & Hermione
References: <9659jl+mcft@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006601c093fb$662a5aa0$6401a8c0@greg>

No: HPFGUIDX 12038

You're absolutely right about what Hagrid said of Lily being head girl-can't
believe I've read the books so many times and didn't remember that!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 10:57 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily - Snape & Hermione


> Annette wrote:
> > I'll have to look it up, but have you noticed that no one says they
> went to
> > school with Lilly?  Several people remember her fondly, but I don't
> recall
> > any comments about her at school, and the comment about Voldemort's
> father
> > being a "muggle AND a full, very much like your mother" seems to
> through
> > some indecision in the matter.
>
> Hagrid didn't go to school with her (he was much older) but he tells
> Harry quite specifically when they first meet that James AND Lily went
> to Hogwarts (head boy and girl) and that they were a very powerful
> wizard and witch.  Lily was like Hermione:  Muggle-born, but a
> talented witch.  Muggle-born doesn't mean you start out life without
> magical talent; it means your parents are both Muggles.
>
> Perhaps the confusion has to do with not only Voldemort & Co., but
> even the narration talking about "blood" as an explanation?  i.e. I
> think it's at the start of CS that "Muggle" is defined as "someone
> with not a drop of magical blood" (that's from memory, correct me if
> I'm miscontruing).  This can be a little confusing, since we Muggles,
> with our odd ideas about race, are in the habit of thinking of "blood"
> as something that goes by fractions, as in "she's half white, half
> black."  But the canon is quite clear on the fact that magical talent
> may be largely inherited (a matter of "blood," so to speak), but also
> pops up out of nowhere (in the case of Muggle-born witches/wizards)
> and can be totally absent in people whose ancestors are mostly magical
> (in the case of Squibs).
>
> Here's a question:  can a wizard tell, just by looking at someone,
> whether he/she's Muggle, magical, Muggle-born, etc.?  In GF ("The
> Quidditch World Cup") Lucius knows that Hermione is Muggle-born.  How?
>  Did he learn who she was in CS, maybe in the bookshop, and I'm
> forgetting?  (I have GOT to buy the books.)  Or maybe because Draco
> has talked about her, as we know from the scene in Borgin & Burke's,
> LM assumes the girl with the Weasleys in the Top Box must be that
> Granger girl?
>
> Re: Snape's teaching and why he hates Hermione:  maybe it hasn't much
> to do with Harry; maybe he just hates a "know-it-all" (not that I'm
> agreeing with this characterization of Hermione).  Teachers do tend to
> love hardworking students, but they can also hate the most hardworking
> and talented students; I've seen it many a time.
>
> Amy Z
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> "I'm *not* going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
> "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
>                       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
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>
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>
>
>
>




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 11 07:37:35 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 07:37:35 -0000
Subject: ADMIN:  Hairnetiquette!/new OT Chatter group/Club chat room - details
Message-ID: <008f01c093fd$96778c80$a33670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12039

[Neil appears in tartan dressing gown and hairnet, looking exasperated...]

HAIRNETIQUETTE...

I see that a few *brave* people are still blithely ignoring our netiquette
guidelines (yes, you at the back, I AM mentioning them AGAIN).  Please read
them - they aren't hexed, you don't have to play giant chess to get in there
and there isn't a boggart hiding in an attachment: they are just a few hints
aimed at making this list as easy to use as possible.

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt)

If you haven't the time or inclination to look through that little lot, at
least pay attention to these points:

- Please label off-topic messages 'OT' ; fanfic-related messages, 'FF';
shipper-related messages, 'SHIP'
- Please remember to check the relevance of your subject headers (especially
when responding to Digest posts);
- When responding, please try to avoid one-liners and see if you can chop
out unnecessary text from the original post.

People are bound to forget from time to time in the excitement of the
moment, but things seem to be drifting now the waters are calmer.


NEW OT CHATTER GROUP

You might like to join our fledgling 'OT Chatter' group to get those
off-topic moments off your chest without having to mention a Harry Potter
character in the last sentence to keep it on-topic.  The scaffolding is
still up, but you can join up here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter


CLUB CHAT SESSIONS

For newer members, our Sunday chats run from around 8pm GMT onwards.  To
check the times for your zone, go to the club calendar
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/calendar) and make sure the
time zone on the right read correctly for your area.  This should adjust all
event times to your local time.

You can access the chatroom by clicking on Chat in the online club area:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/chat).
You will appear under the default name you used to sign up to Yahoo, but
remember that Yahoo gives you the option of creating an alternative profile
(ID) and using that in the chatroom, if you'd rather pretend to be
i_love_lupin than jbloggs999, for example.

There is an alternative chat facility that taps directly into the Yahoo
Groups chat, provided by Cheetachat
(http://www.cheetachat.com).  If you sign up for Cheetachat you'll get lots
of groovy additional features and the option of having an Avatar [little
picture] attached to your name.  If you register with Cheetachat, you can
save the HPforGrownUps chatroom as one of your favourites by selecting Rooms
from the top menu bar, then Favorite Rooms, then Manage Favorite Rooms.
Then, if you then click 'ADD', and enter the following handy code  -
*g.2176166:1  - the HPfor GrownUps chatroom will become one of your
favourites.  Could it be any other way?

All the Sunday chats are recorded and stored in a sister club,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsChatScripts/  run by Dee, Simon
and Catlady, so be aware that your words won't just vanish into the
cyberether.  The Chatscripts club will give you all the information on the
chats, if you need another reminder.

Thanks.

Neil
Moderator Team

[Removes hairnet and reveals a headful of golden tresses... but it turns out
to be a wig]

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (ignition on)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

HPfGU Moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!
Read all the things you never knew you were doing wrong!!
Avoid spending the rest of your rulebreakin' life as a ferret!!!":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 07:55:36 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 07:55:36 -0000
Subject: Wizard diseases and food...
In-Reply-To: <3A860B24.29F848FD@texas.net>
Message-ID: <965gho+i8sl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12040


<snip>
> 
Scot: Are there diseases and sicknesses that are unique to magic 
people?
> 
Amanda: Lycanthropy, werewolfism, springs to mind. Given one 
resounding yes, I'd imagine there's more.
> 

Hmmmm... why do you think that Lycanthropy is unique to magic people? 
I don't think its been explicitly stated that if a werewolf bites a 
muggle it wouldn't have any effect on him/her. I'm not at all an 
expert on the werewolf myths but it seems somehow more appropriate 
that all human beings are susceptible to Lycanthropy, no?

Naama





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Feb 11 07:57:12 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 07:57:12 -0000
Subject: Interview with Screenwriter/Peeves casting
In-Reply-To: <95mmt1+cuce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <965gko+mklt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12041

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rgoertz at a... wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
>   On Aint-It-Cool-News there is an interview with Steven Kloves
> who is the screenwriter for what appears to be the first
> and second film. Pretty informative.
> 
> http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ryan

Echoing everyone else, I must say thanks, Ryan.  This was a great 
interview, and has helped to calm my fears about the movie a bit.  As 
an aside, I'm also glad that Rick Mayall ("Drop Dead Fred") has the 
role of Peeves.  He's not quite my picture of Peeves, but he's a far 
better pick than mini-me.  (RM was not mentioned by name in the 
interview, but in the reader comments after the piece.) 

Kelley






From doreen_iowa at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 08:09:05 2001
From: doreen_iowa at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:09:05 -0000
Subject: OT: British English help!
In-Reply-To: <002401c093cb$1d89fb00$763370c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <965hb1+p5dq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12042


Hi 
 
I am new to this kind of group.. so I don't know if I am doing this 
correctly. I see that you got your answer to the "revisions" 
question. If anyone has any other "British terms", feel free to email 
me, as I do have a very kind British friend, who supplies me with 
definitions for such terms as "plus fours", "treacle", and "tripe".

I am in the middle of reading "The Goblet of Fire", having just read 
the other three books in about six days. As soon as I finish that, I 
will get busy on the British terms list to send to the lexicon 
website.

My email address is nera at rconnect.com 

Doreen from Iowa














--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Parker said:
> 
> "I've come across a term I don't quite understand in the UK 
edition, so
> maybe some nice person from 'across the pond' can help this 
American out.
> In PS, Jo keeps talking about revisions in the terms of schoolwork. 
What is
> this?"
> 
> Rita is correct: Revision means to re-examine or read over work 
that you
> have already done, usually in preparation for an exam or test.
> 
> "Also, how long is summer vacation in a typical boarding school?  
I  get the
> impression for Hogwarts it's two months.  Is this normal?"
> 
> I believe the school holidays are the same in boarding schools as 
they are
> in all British schools - about 10 weeks.
> 
> Neil
> 
> _____________________________________
> 
> Flying-Ford-Anglia
> Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)
> 
> "Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]
> 
> The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!
> Read all the things you never knew you were doing wrong!
> Avoid spending the rest of your rulebreakin' life as a ferret!":
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  9 12:34:27 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 06:34:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Year(was Jame's Potters house and Snape)
Message-ID: <F105AW4eE2FGwQ21ju20000c8d5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12043


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
But, wait... is it ever stated that Snape and the Marauders were in the same 
year? Isn't it possible that Snape was in fact a year younger? If he was, it 
would explain why he was stressing so much that he was in sixth year at the 
time of Black's famous "joke". Anyway, I think he would get wind of things 
earlier if they were in the same house, and shared common room.
Monika Z.
(The Snape fan)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

But doesn't Snape tell Dumbledore something along the lines of "Do not 
forget that Black was capable of murder at age 16".  I am sorry, i dont have 
my book, it is 6:00 am and i really just don't feel like finding it  <vbg>  
ALl i remember is him calling black 16.

Stephanie
The VERY tired

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Sun Feb 11 09:13:19 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:13:19 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Lupin & Snape as teachers/Sirius in Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <3A84A7D2.17CF66A9@texas.net>
References: <9603vt+lnn9@eGroups.com> <3A84A7D2.17CF66A9@texas.net>
Message-ID: <ukjc8tk2to0c0r3o042b85h1g6dat6m2b4@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12044

On Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:30:43 -0600, Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
wrote:

>Are you willing to make the choice to let your
>child run a life-endangering risk, on the basis of someone else's
>evaluation? Even a most puissant wizard?

>Snape's a very unpleasant, mean teacher. I'd probably be sending owls in
>Dumbledore's direction if my child were harassed in his class. But
>still--Snape may cause some psychological echoes down the line. But most
>of those can be overcome, or understood, or dealt with, without
>effectively making the affected person a pariah.

While I can see your points, I still cannot entirely agree with them.
Maybe you would send owls to Dumbledore to complain about Snape, but I
think a lot of parents wouldn't. In fact, nobody does. Maybe I have
had too many unpleasant teachers at school myself not to see the
problem here. My parents did never complain about a teacher because
they believed it wouldn't change anything or would even make things
worse. Teachers are still kind of "almighty" in the eyes of a lot of
people who haven't followed a higher education. It's sad, but that is
how I see it. And if you don't see the problem of what you call
"psychological echoes", you won't deal with it or understand it, let
alone help your child to overcome it. 

>There is no comparison between Lupin's actual, if small, severe danger,
>and Snape's snottiness.

Prolonged snottiness can be devastating, too, of course on a very
different level than lycanthropy.

>It is part of the tragedy of Lupin's character that he is such a
>wonderful teacher, and cannot teach. However, I'm betting that the
>burden of the lycanthropy is part of what has tempered him to be such a
>wonderful personality (I think one of those Greek drama terms covers
>this kind of irony).

I agree here. He has learned not to lose his temper and keep control
in every possible situation very early (except for the nights of full
moon). In this sense, he certainly is one of the most tragic
characters in the series.

>Well, for one, I'm not prepared to say Neville is *terrified* all the
>time. He certainly is in Snape's classes, but while he is uncertain of
>himself and insecure, I think terrified is a bit of a reach. 

Maybe "terrified" is a bit strong a term, but I really don't think he
is a very happy boy. Almost everyone is picking at him, including
sometimes his own friends. He may be more vulnerable to Snape's
snottiness than the other students are, but since nobody really cares
for the cause of his problems (and I don't think of the other students
here who don't know it until GoF), but even his family only tries to
treat his "symptoms" without getting to the root of the problem.


Stephanie, fred_and_george_weasley at yahoo.com wrote:

> All my other 
>girl friends who are fans think that Sirius is the sexy one, no, not 
>for me, Remus has far deeper problems than just jail, and he's still 
>so gentle (well, most of the time anyway)....

Although Lupin is one of my favorites, too and I certainly can see his
tragedy, I'll have to disagree here. Azkaban is not "just" jail, it's
pure psychological torture. It's not as if you are sitting in a more
or less comfortable cell with television, radio and books and go to
work with other prisoners every day. Think about it. Prisoners in
Azkaban are alone in their cells, with no one to talk to and nothing
to occupy themselves. Sirius was a high security prisoner and heavily
guarded, there were dementors in front of his door all the time. The
fact that he didn't lose his mind doesn't mean that they didn't affect
him. Dementors cause clinical depression; if you already have clinical
depression, they cannot make you much worse, but their presence will
prevent you of ever getting out of it. You may tell me that Sirius
managed to get out of it somehow, but it took him twelve years and he
needed a really strong trigger. I have compared Azkaban to the
concentration camps during WWII in an older post, and I maintain that
the effects of being held prisoner there would be similar.

Monika


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From snowy_owl05 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 12:14:23 2001
From: snowy_owl05 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Claire=20Saunders?=)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 04:14:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: OT: British English help!
In-Reply-To: <981878239.1000.4312.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010211121423.9071.qmail@web1804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12045

Hi there

I agree with most of what's already been said as
another Brit on the list.

Revision is preparation for exams - yuck!

School holidays here for most schools are around 6-7
weeks. Boarding schools often get longer holidays,
more like two months, because they often have to do
some lessons on Saturdays.

Claire :-)

> > "I've come across a term I don't quite understand
> in the UK 
> edition, so
> > maybe some nice person from 'across the pond' can
> help this 
> American out.
> > In PS, Jo keeps talking about revisions in the
> terms of schoolwork. 
> What is
> > this?"
> > 
> > Rita is correct: Revision means to re-examine or
> read over work 
> that you
> > have already done, usually in preparation for an
> exam or test.
> > 
> > "Also, how long is summer vacation in a typical
> boarding school?  
> I  get the
> > impression for Hogwarts it's two months.  Is this
> normal?"
> > 
> > I believe the school holidays are the same in
> boarding schools as 
> they are
> > in all British schools - about 10 weeks.
> > 
> > Neil


=====


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From john at walton.to  Sun Feb 11 12:14:47 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:14:47 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weird names (back on topic)
In-Reply-To: <963mgo+f9b6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6AC32B6.B9AF%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 12046

Amy Z ululated:

> I've been wondering why the latest wizarding generation has such
> boring Muggle names.  Earlier generations seem to be a mix--you've got
> your Mollys and Arthurs and Jameses, sure, but also your Siriuses and
> Minervas and Severuses.  Just off the top of my head, Draco is the
> only younger wizard with an unusual name.  Does this trend reflect a
> desire to blend in better with the Muggle world?  Or what?

Perhaps it's a way JKR uses to get readers to empathise more with the
younger characters. Y'know, as in "people will empathise more with
characters named Jim and Mary than with characters named Qaris and Minalla."
Especially with all the weird and wonderful things that go on at Hogwarts.
Don't forget that kids with unusual names tend to get picked on (Female,
Garbage (garBAHzhey), Orangejello and friends don't know the half of it).

Of course, "unusual" names would include Hermione, Neville and Lavender. The
first two are "old people names", not widely used in today's UK, and
Lavender is a little on the hippie side.

Heck, I don't know if it makes sense, but it seemed like a good theory at
the time ;)

--John
________________________________________________

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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 12:51:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:51:44 -0000
Subject: Weird names (back on topic)
In-Reply-To: <B6AC32B6.B9AF%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9661t0+93sc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12047

> Amy Z ululated:
> 
> > I've been wondering why the latest wizarding generation has such
> > boring Muggle names.  Earlier generations seem to be a mix--you've 
got
> > your Mollys and Arthurs and Jameses, sure, but also your Siriuses 
and
> > Minervas and Severuses.  Just off the top of my head, Draco is the
> > only younger wizard with an unusual name.  Does this trend reflect 
a
> > desire to blend in better with the Muggle world?  Or what?

John chirped:

> Of course, "unusual" names would include Hermione, Neville and 
Lavender. The
> first two are "old people names", not widely used in today's UK

Well, that's a relief.  You know, in a country where one in three men 
is named Nigel you just never know.  (j/k!!)

I knew I was getting off track by saying "unusual."  What I really 
meant was "wizard," but that seemed insulting to all those Weasleys 
with their boring English names, and Harry, of course--you can't get 
a better wizard pedigree than that lot, so I hesitated to say what I 
meant.  But I'll plunge ahead with some gross stereotypes.  Ron, Fred, 
Ginny, Harry--those are Muggle names.  Albus, Aberforth, Sirius, 
Rubeus--aah, now those are proper wizard names!  I just wondered if 
there was some deep reason why most wizards have taken to giving their 
kids Muggle names, whether plain as plain ("George") or on the unusual 
or old-fashioned side ("Neville").

Plain old
Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"And some old witch in Bath had a book that you could *never
stop reading*!  You just had to wander around with your nose 
in it, trying to do everything one-handed."
                    --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
-----------------------------------------------------------------




From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Feb 11 13:22:45 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:22:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard diseases/disabilities 
References: <00a201c093dc$4fcd0ba0$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <000c01c0942d$b941a4a0$e2eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12048

Being a special ed teacher, I've wondered if Hogwarts makes accommodations for students with special needs.  I wonder if magical parents ever give birth to mentally retarded children, or autistic children.  
But then, maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
Does Hogwarts have MEP's  (magical education plans) instead of IEP's?

ender
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rina Stewart 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 10:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard diseases/disabilities 


  Scott asked:

  << Are they able to heal such diseases instantly? What about Cancer? 
  HIV/AIDS? Have they been able to eliminate them through magic? Are 
  there diseases and sicknesses that are unique to magic people?>>

  You know, this is something I've been wondering about myself. My mom and I were talking about this last week, and we realized that if Hogwarts was a real place, my little brother couldn't go. He uses an augmentative communication device called a DynaMyte to speak - it's like a portable touchscreen computer. So, obviously, electricity and such is needed for it, and Hermione tells us things that work on electricity go haywire at Hogwarts. So would they exclude Josh even if he was magical, or is there some kind of spell or alternative magical device he could use? Kinda interesting to think about how they would deal with that. And can you sign spells and have them work? As long as they were one handed signs, the wand wouldn't be a problem.

  Rina
  ********************************
  "Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
  others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
  doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
  --Gillian Anderson

  "Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
  --Eleanor Roosevelt

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  Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 11 13:45:25 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:45:25 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weird names (back on topic)
References: <9661t0+93sc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001601c09430$f863b940$063370c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12049

Amy Z "ululated":

"I've been wondering why the latest wizarding generation has such
boring Muggle names.  Earlier generations seem to be a mix--you've
got your Mollys and Arthurs and Jameses, sure, but also your Siriuses
 and Minervas and Severuses."

John "chirped":

" Of course, "unusual" names would include Hermione, Neville and
Lavender. The first two are "old people names", not widely used in today's
UK"

Amy also enunciated:

"Well, that's a relief.  You know, in a country where one in three men
 is named Nigel you just never know.  (j/k!!)"

To that, I retort:

Neil is a contraction of Nigel... hmmmm, should I take offence at your j/k
remark?

Amy then propounded:

"<snip> But I'll plunge ahead with some gross stereotypes.  Ron, Fred,
Ginny, Harry--those are Muggle names.  Albus, Aberforth, Sirius,
 Rubeus--aah, now those are proper wizard names!  I just wondered if
 there was some deep reason why most wizards have taken to giving their
 kids Muggle names, whether plain as plain ("George") or on the unusual
 or old-fashioned side ("Neville")."

...and I muse:

Two things spring to mind:  Firstly, the fact that the wizarding world was
forced to interbreed with the Muggle world in order to survive.  This led to
animosity toward 'mudbloods' from some pureblood families, but it must also
have meant a much greater interaction between the two worlds in recent
generations than in the past.  This greater exposure to Muggle culture, even
to the point of studying Muggles at Hogwarts, would surely have led to a
filtering in of Muggle names.

The second point is that some families are completely buried in wizard
tradition, whereas others are more open to new things.  We already know that
Arthur Weasley has a fascination with Muggle artifacts, so it's no surprise
to me that he and Molly would give their children acceptable Muggle names.
Percy is the exception, of course - see my next point.

I recall that JKR said she gave Hermione an unusual name because she thought
that any girl with the same name as the character would get picked on as a
"know-it-all".  She could hardly have imagined the endless queue of girls of
all ages wishing to "be" Hermione Granger.   I guess the same thinking would
apply to the hapless Neville, the prim and proper Percy or the ill-fated
Cedric.

OT: I used to work with someone, of my age, called Archibald Conkie.  I'm
sure now that he was a creation of JK Rowling, who entered my uiniverse a
little ahead of time...

Neil

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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 11 14:02:42 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 Feb 2001 14:02:42 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <981900162.938.57631.j5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12050


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Fiction/Ginny The Vampire Slayer/gtvsseason1episode1.HTM 
  Uploaded by : keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk 
  Description : Birth Of A Slayer - Part 1 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan+Fiction/Ginny+The+Vampire+Slayer/gtvsseason1episode1.HTM 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

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Regards,

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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 11 14:03:12 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 Feb 2001 14:03:12 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <981900192.994.57666.j5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12051


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Fiction/Ginny The Vampire Slayer/gtvsseason1episode2.HTM 
  Uploaded by : keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk 
  Description : Birth Of A Slayer - Part 2 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan+Fiction/Ginny+The+Vampire+Slayer/gtvsseason1episode2.HTM 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

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Regards,

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms

 







From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 11 14:03:41 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 Feb 2001 14:03:41 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <981900221.884.57604.j5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12052


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Fiction/Ginny The Vampire Slayer/gtvsseason1episode3.HTM 
  Uploaded by : keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk 
  Description : The Curse Of Simon Branford 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan+Fiction/Ginny+The+Vampire+Slayer/gtvsseason1episode3.HTM 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 11 14:04:11 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 Feb 2001 14:04:11 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <981900251.823.57770.j5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12053


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Fiction/Ginny The Vampire Slayer/gtvsseason1episode4.HTM 
  Uploaded by : keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk 
  Description : A Slayer Christmas 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan+Fiction/Ginny+The+Vampire+Slayer/gtvsseason1episode4.HTM 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

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Regards,

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From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 14:09:27 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:09:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 561
In-Reply-To: <4c.10a0d406.27b76423@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010211140927.5386.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12054


--- Ellimist15 at aol.com wrote:
> Rita said: 
> 
> << Mo/Dy/Yr  Sun    Moon   Merc    Venu       Mars  
>   Jupi     Satu
> Uran      Nept   Plut
>  6/24/80  3Cn06 17Sc00 24Cn31 19Ge05.21Vi17  5Vi02
> 21Vi06
> 22Sc01.20Sg58.18Li58.
> 
> (oops, it lost the columns when i copied and pasted)
> it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me as
> Gemini/Cancer 
> cusp)
> 
> Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!
> Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
> Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed to
> indicate 
> retrograde)
> Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo >>
> 
> Can you please elaborate on what this signifies? I
> must have fallen asleep in Professor Sinistra's
> astonomy lesson.
> 
> Ellie
> 
That and Professor Trelawney's lessons. You're not
alone. I have no idea what all this means, but I'm
sure it's significant into Draco's character somehow.
I know enough about astrology to have figured out
Harry's a Leo and that's it! (And I suppose Hermione's
a Virgo as well.) I thought the June 24 date might
have some significance in some calendar system, but I
had no idea what that could be.

Anne


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From sage016 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 14:16:56 2001
From: sage016 at yahoo.com (Kristen)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:16:56 -0000
Subject: can anyone see me?
Message-ID: <9666so+n8l3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12055

hi im just wondering if people can see my posts?  no one ever responds 
to them, so maybe they arent showing up or something.

kriste




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 14:34:57 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:34:57 -0000
Subject: can anyone see me?
In-Reply-To: <9666so+n8l3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9667uh+1vks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12056

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kristen" <sage016 at y...> wrote:
> hi im just wondering if people can see my posts?  no one ever 
responds 
> to them, so maybe they arent showing up or something.
> 
> kriste

Well, I can see this one, and you could also check by looking at the 
web-site. 
People often don't answer to posts unless they have a specific 
comment to make. Don't feel snubbed!

Naama




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 14:38:05 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:38:05 -0000
Subject: HP Tour
Message-ID: <96684d+667t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12057

Whats up with the tour, fellas? I've joined the tour group and sent 
an enthusiastic "I'm in!" message, only to notice a minute later that 
the most recent post is from December. Is the tour off and I haven't 
heard about it?

Naama




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 14:47:52 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:47:52 -0000
Subject: Eyesight/ James' glasses
In-Reply-To: <965br3+rce3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9668mo+og76@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12058

Amy wrote:
> 
> Why does Percy wear glasses?  Because they make him look smart.
> 
> Why did James wear glasses?  Okay, I'm out of excuses.  Anyone?
> 
> Amy Z
> 

This is fun...

James wore glasses because Lily, muggle-born and raised, thought they 
were dead sexy on him. 

Heather M., who has decided that she's R/H and H/G because it feels 
right, and she doesn't know why nor does she want intellectual 
reasons for her emotional reaction. (I read some h/h and r/h and I 
like the latter better!)




From andeinmn at aol.com  Sun Feb 11 14:53:11 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:53:11 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: British English help!
Message-ID: <fb.117b34fc.27b80157@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12059

In a message dated 2/11/01 2:10:47 AM Central Standard Time, 
doreen_iowa at yahoo.com writes:

> Hi 
>   
>  I am new to this kind of group.. so I don't know if I am doing this 
>  correctly. I see that you got your answer to the "revisions" 
>  question. If anyone has any other "British terms", feel free to email 
>  me, as I do have a very kind British friend, who supplies me with 
>  definitions for such terms as "plus fours", "treacle", and "tripe".
>  
>  I am in the middle of reading "The Goblet of Fire", having just read 
>  the other three books in about six days. As soon as I finish that, I 
>  will get busy on the British terms list to send to the lexicon 
>  website.
>  
>  My email address is nera at rconnect.com 
>  
>  Doreen from Iowa
>  
 
Hi Doreen and welcome from your neighbor to the north.  Hope you have fun 
here and I am looking forward to seeing your list on the Lexicon.

Andrea



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 15:42:30 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:42:30 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weird names (back on topic)
Message-ID: <F143CkWHZqYW8BYXifW00008b28@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12060

Neil wrote:

"Two things spring to mind:  Firstly, the fact that the wizarding world was 
forced to interbreed with the Muggle world in order to survive.  This led to 
animosity toward 'mudbloods' from some pureblood families, but it must also 
have meant a much greater interaction between the two worlds in recent 
generations than in the past.  This greater exposure to Muggle culture, even 
to the point of studying Muggles at Hogwarts, would surely have led to a 
filtering in of Muggle names."

I'm not sure that I agree that there *is* a such thing as a wizard name or a 
Muggle name.  I think that various names cycle in and out of popularity 
amongst wizards and Muggles.  Names also depend heavily upon ethnicity, 
locality, and nationality.  I think this holds true for Muggles and 
"magicals".

For instance, in the 70s, there was a wave of ethnic naming in my community, 
but there was also a HUGE wave of old-fashioned, turn-of-the-century names.  
(I gather most of these were family names.)  So I went to school with plenty 
Keishas and Siwatus (and of course there were *always* several girls named 
Ebony), but I also know several black and Hispanic women in their early to 
mid 20s named Priscilla, Hazel, Ruby, Pearl, Jewel, Lily, Rose, Turquoise, 
and even a Hermione.  All of those could be considered witch names.

Roman names were and are also very popular for boys here.  Romulus and Remus 
(twins I knew), Aurelius, Demetrius, any name ending in -us was popular.  
Goddess and Egyptian queen names were extremely popular in the 70s for 
girls.  I've known several girls named Isis, Venus, Nefertiti, Cleopatra, 
etc.  Finally, you had the girls whose parents were into old movies--in high 
school, there were four Ingrids and six to seven Carmens.

I recently looked at the 100 top baby names for 2000.  I thought of all the 
kids in my classes.  While the coined-ethnic naming trend is very much over, 
I still didn't see a lot of names on that list that are popular.  The two 
most popular girls' names at my school are Jessica and Brittany, with many 
Ashleys sprinkled in for good measure.  The boys vary a lot more.

So I don't know... perhaps my generation may have been a fluke.  But none of 
the HP names seem nearly as strange as those I've read in other books (LOTR, 
for instance).  In fact, they struck me as being extraordinarily regular.

>The second point is that some families are completely buried in wizard
>tradition, whereas others are more open to new things.  We already know 
>that Arthur Weasley has a fascination with Muggle artifacts, so it's no 
>surprise to me that he and Molly would give their children acceptable 
>Muggle names.  Percy is the exception, of course - see my next point.
>

A couple of chats ago, I asked if perhaps the Weasley kids were nicknamed.  
The chatters verdict was "Probably".  I'm not sure if nicknaming is popular 
in England, though.

These were the lengthened names we came up with.

Bill--William
Charlie--Charlie
Percy--Percival (one problem:  the meaning of the name changes!)
Fred--Frederick
George--George
Ron--Ronald
Ginny--Virginia, Ginger, or something else with a "Gin" root (my handy-dandy 
baby name book states that Ginny is a nickname for those two)

I remember thinking Hermione was the ugliest name I'd ever seen or heard, 
and actually made a face at JKR when I first cracked open CoS.  Of course, 
there's a difference between "Hermy-own" (the way the girl I know pronounces 
it) and "Her-my-own-knee".  The latter sounds nicer IMO.  Even then I didn't 
see it as a witch name.  I saw it as an Insufferable Know It All name in 
fiction and real life, and chuckled over the coincidence.  Then I read PoA 
and GoF, and the corrected pronunciation along with Hermione's character 
development made me like her and her name a lot better.

One of my major pet peeves in fanfiction is that I *hate* when writers 
misspell canon names.  I will NOT read fanfics by or starring "Hermoine".  I 
also grit my teeth when writers misspell "Weasley", "McGonagall", and other 
names they could have easily checked canon for.  And if they didn't, why 
their beta-readers did not is a mystery to me.

>I recall that JKR said she gave Hermione an unusual name because she 
>thought that any girl with the same name as the character would get picked 
>on as a "know-it-all".  She could hardly have imagined the endless queue of 
>girls of all ages wishing to "be" Hermione Granger.

Or the poor kids I'll be teaching in 10-15-20 years named Hermione... an 
entire generation of women will most likely try to convince their husbands 
that "Hermione" is the best name for their girl.

I also fear that the number of teen girls screaming for Draco in leather 
will lead to a few Dracos sprinkled here and there in the next generation.

>I guess the same thinking would apply to the hapless Neville, the prim and 
>proper Percy or the ill-fated Cedric.

I don't know any Nevilles or Percys.  But Cedric is a popular boy's name 
here... I've got three Ceds in my gradebook now, and a colleague I grew up 
with is Ced too.

Did I mention I *love* names and naming?

--Ebony
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 16:09:28 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:09:28 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weird names (back on topic)
Message-ID: <F202c7TIFwYOz04EPHe00001276@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12061

Apologies in advance for the short message.

I wrote in a list of lengthened Weasley names:
>Charlie--Charlie

That SHOULD have read Charlie--Charles.  Perhaps I need someone to beta-read 
my posts.  I type much slower than I think.  Or I think much slower than I 
type.  Who knows?  Who cares?

To make this longer, I'll give Reason #123 about Why I Am A Proud H/H 
Shipper.

:::looks around at the rock and brick wielding No-Shippers and R/Hers, and 
cringes at the frowns of the Mod Squad, who are gloating at the quiet death 
of the Shipping and Handling postal rates:::

Or maybe not.  At least, not this time.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 11 16:40:39 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:40:39 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weird names (back on topic)
References: <F143CkWHZqYW8BYXifW00008b28@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c09449$736b28e0$113770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12062

Ebony wrote:

"I'm not sure that I agree that there *is* a such thing as a wizard name or
a Muggle name.  I think that various names cycle in and out of popularity
amongst wizards and Muggles.  Names also depend heavily upon ethnicity,
locality, and nationality.  I think this holds true for Muggles and
"magicals"."
***
Ebony, I take your points about cycling names and cultural influences.
You're right, we're not talking about mutually exclusive groups of names
here.  If you like, what we have is a Venn diagram of names for the Muggle
and Magical communities that cycle differently, but which have overlapped
rather more in recent generations than in the past.

You made a good point about naming cycles in your own community and I think
we can use this to illustrate the concept of wizard naming, if we use the
black American community as an analogy for the wizarding community.  I
suggest that there are some names that you would *only* find in the black
community at any point in history, such as Keisha and Siwatu (let's say cf.
Olympe and Rosmerta), whereas names such as Hazel or Ruby (let's say cf.
Ginny and Penelope) are less culturally-identified.  If communities are
quite insular when it comes to naming children the chance of a common pool
of names in the Venn diagram is considerably lessened.  If we'd run a
comparison between the Muggle and Wizard names in, say, 1300, the names
which were common to both communities would surely have been totally
different than those in more recent times.  The naming 'orbits' are
different, but there will have been occasional alignments.

Ebony again:

"So I don't know... perhaps my generation may have been a fluke.  But none
of the HP names seem nearly as strange as those I've read in other books
(LOTR,  for instance).  In fact, they struck me as being extraordinarily
regular."
***
The thing about the Wizarding world is that it has very strong associations
with the Muggle world.  I see it as an extension of the medieval Muggle
world as it would have evolved had magic been nurtured rather than treated
as the Devils' work.  It's a parallel universe and a sister-set of the
Muggle coummunity.  IIRC, LOTR is a world based completely in fantasy, with
no connections to the real world, so the more unusual names therein are,
IMO, understandable.

Ebony also said:

"A couple of chats ago, I asked if perhaps the Weasley kids were nicknamed.
The chatters verdict was "Probably".  I'm not sure if nicknaming is popular
in England, though."
<snipped list of Weasley names>
***
Shortened names are used here and I'd agree with the list you posted.
Charlie = Charles (perhaps that's what you meant to type) and I'd say Ginny
= Virginia (Ginger seems an insulting name to give a red-haired child).

You also mentioned that you know a few Cedrics, and that's an interesting
point.  To me, Cedric has an obscure, medieval feel and I think JKR would
have regarded it as being an outmoded name, but, thinking about it, it's
probably relatively common in the black community here as well; again,
indicating a difference in cultural perspective.

Neil
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!
Read all the things you never knew you were doing wrong!
Avoid spending the rest of your rulebreakin' life as a ferret!":
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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Feb 11 18:07:45 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:07:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Like A Veela
References: <981754161.94466.56103.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c09455$89c08340$4fc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12063

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
   Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:30:44 -0000
   From: foxmoth at qnet.com
Subject: Like A Veela (filk)

Like a Veela
a filk by Pippin
to the tune of Madonna's Like A Virgin

dedicated to Caius Marcus, with apologies

Once again, Pippin shows that when it comes to providing great "material,"
she's the girl!

   - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Feb 11 18:12:55 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:12:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Azkaban (filk)
References: <981892836.340.13860.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c09456$4275f960$4fc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12064

Azkaban

Dedicated to the Amazin' Amy Z

(To the tune of Kokomo)

The Following Informercial has been paid for by the Ministry of Magic

(Enter BARTY CROUCH, SR and CHORUS OF MINISTRY WITCHES)

CROUCH
If you're convicted of crime
Or cast a spell unforgive-a-bell
Our Aurors may deliver you to us for a spell

Come to our isle
It's so exotic and remote
You'll be mingling on a cellblock with Dark Wizards of note
Here in Azkaban

CHORUS 
If you helped the Dark Lord we'd love to get you on board
If you served You-Know-Who we want to get to know you
If you are someone blamed with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named..........

CROUCH & CHORUS
....Oooh then you're the Man, we'll be recruiting you to join that clan
Serving a lengthy span of time in Azkaban

CHORUS 
And by decree
We'll throw away the key

CROUCH
We've put a lot of pizzaz in our magic Alcatraz 
All enveloped in gloom, it simply radiates doom
We have taken your wand, so please relax and just despond
Shrivel up just a tad, and find a place to go quietly mad 
Here in Azkaban

CHORUS
Come meet our Dementors all highly trained tormentors
As you see them gliding glad thoughts they're overriding 
Their force is so brutal they make resistance futile

CROUCH & CHORUS
We now have a plan, and we hope that you will understand 
How it all hits the fan right here in Azkaban 

CHORUS
When arriving, just smile, we gave you a fair trial
We don't want you trash back, so have yourself a flashback
Revisit the highlights of your most hideous frights

CROUCH & CHORUS
...Oooh then as you can see, we're possessed of such security 
So that one's whole family could safe in Azkaban be! 

     - CMC








From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Feb 11 18:20:04 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:20:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filk Suggestions 
References: <981754161.94466.56103.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <003001c09457$41fc6720$4fc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12065


Message: 18
   Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:22:00 -0000
   From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk
Subject: Filk suggestions

>There's a lot of filks around at the moment and I'd love to write
>one, but I doubt it'd be very good. So here instead are some
>suggestions for more talented songwriters:

>-Voldemort or Harry singing "Stayin' Alive" ("I will Survive" has
>already been done on ff.net)

I've already done a filk called Barely Alive, based on Harry's first
"face-to-face" with Voldemort.  It's available on Steve Vander Ark's site:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/j_filks3.html

Your other suggestions are interesting (although California is five
syllables and Gryffindor only three) - I'll keep them in mind.

   - CMC






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 11 19:03:54 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:03:54 -0800
Subject: Lycanthropy - Azkaban - Weird Names - HP Tour
Message-ID: <3A86E219.F790CE05@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12066

Naama wrote:
> why do you think that Lycanthropy is unique to magic people?
> I don't think its been explicitly stated that if a werewolf bites a
> muggle it wouldn't have any effect on him/her.

If there were Muggles turning into werewolves every Full Moon, Muggles
would find out that werewolves exist. It would be reported in our
newspapers and even scientific rationalist types would be persuaded by
their own experience of encounters with werewolves. Therefore, Wolfie
Twins in their fic hypothesized that every Muggle (and most wizarding
adults) who are bitten by a werewolf die. I think they said the symptoms
of dying from stress of shapeshifting magic resemble those of rabies.
(Of course, many people die of the bite injuries in a normal way.)

If lycanthropy itself is not fatal to Muggles, maybe the wizarding
government departments responsible for concealing magic from Muggles
have actual assassination squads to kill lycanthropic Muggles. That is
quite a nasty thought (the kind of nasty thing that REAL governments do)
so maybe they just kidnap lycanthropic Muggles and put them in St.
Mungo's under heavy restraint.

Monika Huebner wrote:
> Dementors cause clinical depression; if you already have clinical
> depression, they cannot make you much worse, but their presence
> will prevent you of ever getting out of it.

Yes they can make it worse.  Sirius mentioned that most of his fellow
prisoners died in only a few years, died of having lost the will to
live, not of deliberate suicide. Our Muggle clinical depression can be
fatal via suicide, but doesn't get bad enough that people Just Die.

John Walton mentioned
> Lavender as a hippie type name.

To me, Lavender is definitely more of an old-lady type name than a
hippie type name.

Amy Z signed off as
> Plain old Amy Z

Plain old? You mean Amy isn't short for Amiabilia or something? When I
wrote about Cho and Mary, I decided that the other four girls in their
dorm are
Tina short for Florentina
Lucy short for Melusina
Annie short for Esperanza
and Nellie short for Pulcherinella, whose grandmother is named Pulchi
short for Pulcheria and whose mother is named Rina short for Pulcherina
and who has often declared that if she has daughters, she is going to
name them Cho and Mary.
Meanwhile, Mary's sister Ellie and Ellie's boyfriend Andy are,
unbeknownst to the readers, Electra and Androcles.
And, from a previous generation,  my Snapefic mentions 'little Nellie
Nott' as wife of Nott the Death Eater -- Nellie is short for Florinella,
altho' I doubt that will come up in the story.

Flying Ford Anglia retorted:
> Neil is a contraction of Nigel... hmmmm, should I take offence
> at your j/k remark?

I always thought that Neil came from Niall came from Njal, as in Njal's
Saga.... Elizabeth I mistakenly thought she had co-opted The O'Neill by
giving him the title Earl of Tyrone.

Flying Ford Anglia mused:
> Firstly, the fact that the wizarding world was forced to interbreed
> with the Muggle world in order to survive.  (snip) it must also
> have meant a much greater interaction between the two worlds in
> recent generations than in the past.

> it's no surprise to me that [Arthur] and Molly would give their
children
> acceptable Muggle names.

I never thought that Ron's remark, if we hadn't intermarried with
Muggles we would have died out, referred to a RECENT population or
fertility crisis, but was said gazing back (vaguely, as he was 11 at the
time) on 6000 or 12000 years of intermarriage. There would have been
even more CONTACT between wizards and Muggles in earlier millennia than
now, as wizarding folk didn't use to try to keep their existence secret.
And the debate about Muggle-born wizards was the same 1000 years ago
between Salazar and his colleagues as it is now between Lucius and
Arthur.

I bet those are all old Weasley family names, and Arthur and Molly and
all the young Weasleys would be astonished to be told that they are
Muggle names.

Ebony wrote:
> A couple of chats ago, I asked if perhaps the Weasley kids were
> nicknamed. The chatters verdict was "Probably".

I'm the heretic: I still think most of them AREN'T nicknamed.  Some
people formed a club called The Order of the Unbroken Name for people
who are demanding about being called by their 'real' names instead of
nicknames. One of the founders was a James who refused to acknowledge
anyone who called him Jim. A number of friends of mine joined this club:
Tony (a boy), Tony (a girl),  and Vickie (a girl).

> These were the lengthened names we came up with.
> Bill--William
The heretic thinks Bill is short for Bilius, named after Uncle Bilius
who died when he saw a Grim.
> Charlie--Charlie
> Percy--Percival (one problem:  the meaning of the name changes!)
> Fred--Frederick
> George--George
> Ron--Ronald
The heretic thinks Charlie, Percy, Fred, and George ARE their given
names. For example, Dumbledore refers to Mr. Fred Weasley, Mr. George
Weasley and Mr. Ronald Weasley.  If he uses the full name for Ron, why
would he use a short name for Fred?
> Ginny--Virginia, Ginger, or something else with a "Gin" root
My mother's generation was sure that Ginger was a nickname for Virginia,
not a real name. In Britain, Ginger could also be a nickname for a
red-haired person, but my mother couldn't deal with that. I think her
real name is Ginny, but if it's a nickname, she could be the Genevieve,
Genevere, Genetrix, or Agincourtessa of the family.

Neil believes:
> Olympe [is a name found only in the wizarding community]

Manet's model for his famous kiddy-porn painting (the nude of the young
prostitute wearing a black ribbon around her neck) was named Olympe. As
a French name, it might be more common in France than in English
speaking countries.

Naama asked:
> Whats up with the tour, fellas? I've joined the tour group and sent
> an enthusiastic "I'm in!" message, only to notice a minute later that
> the most recent post is from December. Is the tour off and I haven't
> heard about it?

I don't want the tour to be off, altho' Penny will be busy with the baby
and Amanda and Dee don't have the money and all the people who are in
school have their school holidays at different times, but I also don't
want to be the planner and organizer of an outing to a country where I
have never been -- I might allow enough driving time between two places
for if the route were by freeway but it turns to be by twisted country
lane.  When I saw a news release that the British tourism department was
going to publish guide books to Harry Potter sites in the UK, I decided
I would wait for them to do the work for me.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From sara.ludwig at telia.com  Sun Feb 11 19:05:02 2001
From: sara.ludwig at telia.com (Sara Ludwig)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:05:02 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups]
References: <20010103161121.71308.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02a301c0945e$2d3ec920$61c116c2@pnxpg>

No: HPFGUIDX 12067

Peggy or whoever is in charge, can you please put me on daily digest - from no-mail - can't go to yahoogroups and No discussion on yahooIDs please.
Sara



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Sun Feb 11 19:14:50 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:14:50 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP Tour
Message-ID: <31.1052b176.27b83eaa@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12068

Hi Naama,

I hope the tour is still on!  Glad to see you're interested in it.  I posted 
some questions I thought we needed to discuss before trying to put the tour 
together, but I only got 3 answers, so I was very discouraged.   I'll repost 
the question list later today to the HPTour list and maybe there will be a 
little more response.  I'd like to get someone started negotiating group 
rates, but 4 or 5 people isn't enough to do that.

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Feb 11 19:54:55 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:54:55 -0000
Subject: How did Harry survive Voldemort's attack as a baby?
In-Reply-To: <963qi2+jnvb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <966qmf+jhli@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12069

>Annette wrote:
> > Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch 
or a muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that 
> she was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a reference 
to this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end of book 
4, when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort said how 
> > alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....Another 
> > thing I noticed is that the Death Eaters are all violently anti 
mud blood, but why then would they support Voldemort if he had a 
muggle mother?
>
> Parker wrote: 
> It was Riddle's *father* who was the muggle.  In CoS, p. 231 UK 
> edition, Voldemort explains how he "became" Voldemort.  'I, keep 
the name of a foul, common Muggle, who abandoned me before I was 
born, just because he found out his wife was a witch?'...
> This is the reason (IMO) that Voldemort hates people born of muggle 
> parentage. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  

Right, this is true.  And, what still is odd to me, is that Vold is 
the last descendent of Salazar Slytherin, who was so against mud-
bloods and muggleborns attending HW, yet his own heir is half-
muggle.  Guess Slytherin had to make do with what he had; plus, Vold 
does have the 'hate his (muggle) dad' thing going on.  Just seems so 
ironic that Vold (and S. Slyth.) are so against mixed-blood, etc., 
and this is exactly what Vold is.  I'm really curious about his 
mother (as well as James' and Lily's parents)...

Kelley




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Sun Feb 11 19:56:17 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:56:17 -0000
Subject: WW2 parallels with HP
Message-ID: <966qp1+pq32@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12070

I just watched a documentary about Hitler and co. during WW2 and 
apparantly, something I've never heard of before, members of the SS 
had an SS symbol burned into their arms. Some familiarity with a 
certain dark mark seems apparant. Also, and I'm kicking myself for 
not spotting this before, Salazar was the name of the fascist 
dictator of Portugal during the same period.

Something new to think on.

Dai




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Sun Feb 11 19:59:14 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:59:14 -0000
Subject: Another WW2 parallel
In-Reply-To: <966qmf+jhli@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <966qui+jf8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12071

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> Just seems so 
> ironic that Vold (and S. Slyth.) are so against mixed-blood, etc., 
> and this is exactly what Vold is.  I'm really curious about his 
> mother (as well as James' and Lily's parents)...

I have a feeling that one of Hitlers parents or grandparents were 
Jewish. I can't remember where I heard this, but if it's true it does 
add another brick to the WW2 parallel wall.



Dai, again.




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Feb 11 20:24:40 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:24:40 -0000
Subject: Lily's a muggle?
In-Reply-To: <001b01c09386$17b962a0$6401a8c0@greg>
Message-ID: <966se8+utda@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12072

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Annette Harada" <annetteh11 at h...> wrote:
> > > Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch 
or a muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that
> > she was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a 
reference to this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end 
of book 4, when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort 
said how alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....> 
> Ok, I'll grant you that one about Voldemort, but what about Lilly 
Potter?  Voldemort did say she was a muggle....
> 
> Thanks for your response <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hi Annette.  I think all that bit about Lily is that she's muggle-
born, rather than plain, flat-out muggle.  She's a witch from a 
muggle family, like Hermione.  But because Lily was a witch and James 
was a wizard, then Harry is full-blood, even though it's only one 
generation back on his mom's side.  Apparently* both Lily and 
Hermione are magical people from completely non-magical ancestries.  
(I had a different theory about Lily, but things JKR has said have 
pretty much killed that...;o])  So, yeah, I think that's it.  Did 
that help at all?... <g>

Kelley




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 11 20:40:07 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:40:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lycanthropy - Azkaban - Weird Names - HP Tour
References: <3A86E219.F790CE05@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3A86F8A6.B43F1A54@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12073

Catlady wrote:

> John Walton mentioned
> > Lavender as a hippie type name.
>
> To me, Lavender is definitely more of an old-lady type name than a
> hippie type name.

Well, to me her name had a nursery-rhyme echo--you know, "Lavender Blue,
Lavender Green"? She's Lavender Brown. Perhaps one of Jo's daughter's
crayons rolled to her feet just as she was naming this character....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 11 20:43:18 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:43:18 -0600
Subject: A need for Filch?
Message-ID: <3A86F966.51145914@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12074

I saw this one the other Yahoo HPforGrownups group, the one I get the
odd email from. For once, it was an interesting question instead of the
usual, Hi, I love HP, HP rules, etc. (I get the impression lots of them
are very young).

Question being--why does Filch have to clean up all the messes--like the
mud that gets tracked in? Why don't the house elves do that? Why do they
need Filch at all?

Any thoughts? Was this discussed in old, pre-voluble-Amanda days?

--Amanda




From queenmarcie at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 21:46:43 2001
From: queenmarcie at yahoo.com (M)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:46:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 564
In-Reply-To: <981921300.1420.53881.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010211214643.83006.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12075

Do you mean that 6/24/80 is some how hinted as Draco's
birthday? If it is then Draco is a Cancer (I can't
believe it) usually described as motherly figures ^_^;

If this is the case, the following is an analysis.

With Cancer's ruler Moon in Scorpio is someone who
faces unusual situations in their lives. 

Ruler Moon(in 5th House) is in 120 degrees angle range
with the Sun(in Cancer 1st House), indicating someone
with a lot of energy and usually successful when comes
to romance and sex.

Moon in 150 degrees range with Venus(in Gemini 12th
House) is one with hidden sexual secrets, but does not
affect life much.

Moon in 120 degrees range with Mercury(in Cancer 1st
House), a very smart person also informative.

Moon in 60 degrees range with Mars(in Virgo 3rd
House), the person's interest lies in new thing,
sometime adventures.

Please correct me if I got any of this wrong, I just
took up astrology not long ago. :)


>
>    Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:09:27 -0800 (PST)
>    From: A B <old_wych at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 561
> 
> 
> --- Ellimist15 at aol.com wrote:
> > Rita said: 
> > 
> > << Mo/Dy/Yr  Sun    Moon   Merc    Venu       Mars
>  
> >   Jupi     Satu
> > Uran      Nept   Plut
> >  6/24/80  3Cn06 17Sc00 24Cn31 19Ge05.21Vi17  5Vi02
> > 21Vi06
> > 22Sc01.20Sg58.18Li58.
> > 
> > (oops, it lost the columns when i copied and
> pasted)
> > it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me
> as
> > Gemini/Cancer 
> > cusp)
> > 
> > Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!
> > Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
> > Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed
> to
> > indicate 
> > retrograde)
> > Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo >>
> > 
> > Can you please elaborate on what this signifies? I
> > must have fallen asleep in Professor Sinistra's
> > astonomy lesson.
> > 
> > Ellie
> > 
> That and Professor Trelawney's lessons. You're not
> alone. I have no idea what all this means, but I'm
> sure it's significant into Draco's character
> somehow.
> I know enough about astrology to have figured out
> Harry's a Leo and that's it! (And I suppose
> Hermione's
> a Virgo as well.) I thought the June 24 date might
> have some significance in some calendar system, but
> I
> had no idea what that could be.
> 
> Anne
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 22:00:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:00:25 -0000
Subject: Weird names - Azkaban - Eyesight
Message-ID: <96721q+e3kd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12076

Neil wrote:

>Neil is a contraction of Nigel... hmmmm, should I take offence at 
>your j/k remark?

No offense meant, Nigel/Neil/Ford!  I *like* the name Nigel.  I just 
always used to ponder the fact that the credits on British TV shows 
were loaded with Nigels and Ians.  Ian has caught on stateside, but I 
have never, ever met a Nigel in the USA.  So it remains an oddity.  A 
nice oddity!  Very nice!  Please don't run me over!

Re:  Ginny=Virginia, I'm pretty sure there's canon evidence that her 
name IS Virginia.  In my bookless state, I can only encourage and 
suggest...encourage and suggest... 

Caius Marcius wrote:

>Azkaban

>Dedicated to the Amazin' Amy Z

Aw, shucks--an infomercial just for me?  Thanks--and, as always, ROFL!

Heather M wrote:

>James wore glasses because Lily, muggle-born and raised, thought they 
>were dead sexy on him. 

Which they were, natch!

Just came up with another eyesight-impaired wizard:  Mr. W.  That 
one's easy; he wears glasses because he thinks they make him more 
Muggleish.

Amy Z
who would prefer to have a more unusual name...maybe I should start 
telling people it's short for Amontillado? (hey, I wrote that before 
reading Catlady's Amiabilia suggestion!  You know what they say about 
great minds...)

-------------------------------------------------
  "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye
Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly.
  "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he,"
said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room.  
"Birds of a feather."
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------




From queenmarcie at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 22:22:37 2001
From: queenmarcie at yahoo.com (queenmarcie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:22:37 -0000
Subject: Digest Number 564 astrology continued
In-Reply-To: <20010211214643.83006.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9673bd+boi6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12077

Moon in 120 degrees range with Jupiter(in Virgo 3rd House). The person 
is likely to success in his career. Negative side would be too 
luxurious, arrogant, and a big ego(in other words, a rich brat).

Moon in 120 degrees range with Saturn(in Virgo 3rd House), is some how 
a responsible person and follows his plans. But sometimes takes on too 
much responsibilities.

Moon in 0 degree range with Uranus(in Scorpio 5th House). A dangerous 
and eccentric person with a brilliant mind to make changes.

Moon in 30 degrees range with Neptune(in Sagittarius 6th House), he is 
full of ideas at work. But in this position, it almost doesn't his 
life at all.

Moon in 90 degrees range with Pluto(in Libra 4th House). Will be 
violent in family, or had a violent family to grew up in.

An additional note:
Mercury in 1st House is someone who is comfortable with lying.
And again if someone finds this to be incorrect please tell me.



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., M <queenmarcie at y...> wrote:
> Do you mean that 6/24/80 is some how hinted as Draco's
> birthday? If it is then Draco is a Cancer (I can't
> believe it) usually described as motherly figures ^_^;
> 
> If this is the case, the following is an analysis.
> 
> With Cancer's ruler Moon in Scorpio is someone who
> faces unusual situations in their lives. 
> 
> Ruler Moon(in Scorpio 5th House) is in 120 degrees angle range
> with the Sun(in Cancer 1st House), indicating someone
> with a lot of energy and usually successful when comes
> to romance and sex.
> 
> Moon in 150 degrees range with Venus(in Gemini 12th
> House) is one with hidden sexual secrets, but does not
> affect life much.
> 
> Moon in 120 degrees range with Mercury(in Cancer 1st
> House), a very smart person also informative.
> 
> Moon in 60 degrees range with Mars(in Virgo 3rd
> House), the person's interest lies in new thing,
> sometime adventures.
> 
> Please correct me if I got any of this wrong, I just
> took up astrology not long ago. :)
> 
> 
> >
> >    Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:09:27 -0800 (PST)
> >    From: A B <old_wych at y...>
> > Subject: Re: Digest Number 561
> > 
> > 
> > --- Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> > > Rita said: 
> > > 
> > > << Mo/Dy/Yr  Sun    Moon   Merc    Venu       Mars
> >  
> > >   Jupi     Satu
> > > Uran      Nept   Plut
> > >  6/24/80  3Cn06 17Sc00 24Cn31 19Ge05.21Vi17  5Vi02
> > > 21Vi06
> > > 22Sc01.20Sg58.18Li58.
> > > 
> > > (oops, it lost the columns when i copied and
> > pasted)
> > > it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me
> > as
> > > Gemini/Cancer 
> > > cusp)
> > > 
> > > Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!
> > > Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
> > > Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed
> > to
> > > indicate 
> > > retrograde)
> > > Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo >>
> > > 
> > > Can you please elaborate on what this signifies? I
> > > must have fallen asleep in Professor Sinistra's
> > > astonomy lesson.
> > > 
> > > Ellie
> > > 
> > That and Professor Trelawney's lessons. You're not
> > alone. I have no idea what all this means, but I'm
> > sure it's significant into Draco's character
> > somehow.
> > I know enough about astrology to have figured out
> > Harry's a Leo and that's it! (And I suppose
> > Hermione's
> > a Virgo as well.) I thought the June 24 date might
> > have some significance in some calendar system, but
> > I
> > had no idea what that could be.
> > 
> > Anne
> > 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From queenmarcie at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 22:38:26 2001
From: queenmarcie at yahoo.com (queenmarcie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:38:26 -0000
Subject: Digest Number 564 astrology continued
In-Reply-To: <9673bd+boi6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <967492+81kj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12078

It's me agian ^_^
Just want to add something. To my observation Draco(if this is Draco) 
is born on 6/24/1980's early evening, around 9:00pm.

btw. M and queenmarcie at yahoo.com are both the same person, me.



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., queenmarcie at y... wrote:
> Moon in 120 degrees range with Jupiter(in Virgo 3rd House). The 
person 
> is likely to success in his career. Negative side would be too 
> luxurious, arrogant, and a big ego(in other words, a rich brat).
> 
> Moon in 120 degrees range with Saturn(in Virgo 3rd House), is some 
how 
> a responsible person and follows his plans. But sometimes takes on 
too 
> much responsibilities.
> 
> Moon in 0 degree range with Uranus(in Scorpio 5th House). A 
dangerous 
> and eccentric person with a brilliant mind to make changes.
> 
> Moon in 30 degrees range with Neptune(in Sagittarius 6th House), he 
is 
> full of ideas at work. But in this position, it almost doesn't his 
> life at all.
> 
> Moon in 90 degrees range with Pluto(in Libra 4th House). Will be 
> violent in family, or had a violent family to grew up in.
> 
> An additional note:
> Mercury in 1st House is someone who is comfortable with lying.
> And again if someone finds this to be incorrect please tell me.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., M <queenmarcie at y...> wrote:
> > Do you mean that 6/24/80 is some how hinted as Draco's
> > birthday? If it is then Draco is a Cancer (I can't
> > believe it) usually described as motherly figures ^_^;
> > 
> > If this is the case, the following is an analysis.
> > 
> > With Cancer's ruler Moon in Scorpio is someone who
> > faces unusual situations in their lives. 
> > 
> > Ruler Moon(in Scorpio 5th House) is in 120 degrees angle range
> > with the Sun(in Cancer 1st House), indicating someone
> > with a lot of energy and usually successful when comes
> > to romance and sex.
> > 
> > Moon in 150 degrees range with Venus(in Gemini 12th
> > House) is one with hidden sexual secrets, but does not
> > affect life much.
> > 
> > Moon in 120 degrees range with Mercury(in Cancer 1st
> > House), a very smart person also informative.
> > 
> > Moon in 60 degrees range with Mars(in Virgo 3rd
> > House), the person's interest lies in new thing,
> > sometime adventures.
> > 
> > Please correct me if I got any of this wrong, I just
> > took up astrology not long ago. :)
> > 
> > 
> > >
> > >    Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:09:27 -0800 (PST)
> > >    From: A B <old_wych at y...>
> > > Subject: Re: Digest Number 561
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> > > > Rita said: 
> > > > 
> > > > << Mo/Dy/Yr  Sun    Moon   Merc    Venu       Mars
> > >  
> > > >   Jupi     Satu
> > > > Uran      Nept   Plut
> > > >  6/24/80  3Cn06 17Sc00 24Cn31 19Ge05.21Vi17  5Vi02
> > > > 21Vi06
> > > > 22Sc01.20Sg58.18Li58.
> > > > 
> > > > (oops, it lost the columns when i copied and
> > > pasted)
> > > > it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me
> > > as
> > > > Gemini/Cancer 
> > > > cusp)
> > > > 
> > > > Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!
> > > > Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
> > > > Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed
> > > to
> > > > indicate 
> > > > retrograde)
> > > > Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo >>
> > > > 
> > > > Can you please elaborate on what this signifies? I
> > > > must have fallen asleep in Professor Sinistra's
> > > > astonomy lesson.
> > > > 
> > > > Ellie
> > > > 
> > > That and Professor Trelawney's lessons. You're not
> > > alone. I have no idea what all this means, but I'm
> > > sure it's significant into Draco's character
> > > somehow.
> > > I know enough about astrology to have figured out
> > > Harry's a Leo and that's it! (And I suppose
> > > Hermione's
> > > a Virgo as well.) I thought the June 24 date might
> > > have some significance in some calendar system, but
> > > I
> > > had no idea what that could be.
> > > 
> > > Anne
> > > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
> > a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Sun Feb 11 23:19:22 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:19:22 -0400
Subject: Food, names
Message-ID: <3A871DFA.253229F6@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 12079

About wizard food:

I'm beginning another reread of CoS, and when Harry visits the Burrow
for the first time, he notices the Weasleys have an abundant home
garden. And I think all those chickens aren't pets.

Considering how poorly wizards manage Muggle money, I'm thinking that
the wizard community produces their own food. Pumpkins are really cheap.

Veering off-topic about names:

Catlady wrote:

>I'm the heretic: I still think most of them AREN'T nicknamed.  Some
>people formed a club called The Order of the Unbroken Name for people
>who are demanding about being called by their 'real' names instead of
>nicknames. One of the founders was a James who refused to acknowledge
>anyone who called him Jim. 

Where do I sign up? Only my beloved aunts are permitted to call me
Angie.

Angela
-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
 "Life beats down and crushes the soul 
   and art reminds you that you have one" - Stella Norman



From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 23:37:15 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:37:15 -0000
Subject: Food, names
In-Reply-To: <3A871DFA.253229F6@nb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9677nb+2o2l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12080


Angela writes:
> About wizard food:
> 
> I'm beginning another reread of CoS, and when Harry visits the 
Burrow
> for the first time, he notices the Weasleys have an abundant home
> garden. And I think all those chickens aren't pets.
> 
> Considering how poorly wizards manage Muggle money, I'm thinking 
that
> the wizard community produces their own food. Pumpkins are really 
cheap.
> 

I rather agree. Hagrid manages the Hogwarts gardens. At the beginning 
of COS, he discovers Harry in Knockturn Alley. He's there to buy 
Flesh-Eating Slug Repellent, because they are into the school 
cabbages. (Cabbages are also cheap.)

Heather M.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Feb 12 00:13:38 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:13:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] When Dementors Journey (filk)
References: <981892836.340.13860.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c09488$a69946e0$71c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12081

When Dementors Journey (from PoA, Chap. 5)

(To the tune of Sentimental Journey)

(THE SCENE: A cabin of the Hogwarts Express, en route to Hogwarts.
Passengers include HARRY, RON  and PROF. LUPIN. The train suddenly screeches
to halt, and is plunged in darkness. LUPIN magically creates a flame in his
hand for illumination. Enter a Dementor, searching for Sirius Black)

RON
Did you ever see Dementors journey?
They're not too friendly, so I've been told

(HARRY passes out.)

Hey, please, someone - quickly get a gurney
Harry Potter has been knocked out cold

(LUPIN moves to assist him)

HARRY (reviving)
As it entered I felt my spirit sicken
Its dark hood loomin' above me so huge
It looked just like that ghost from out of Dickens
That went time-turnin' with old Mr. Scrooge

LUPIN (giving a slab of chocolate to HARRY)
Choc'late! Please make sure that you consume some choc'late!
As for you, Dementor, hey, now knock it
Off  because you are way off-track
Here, we don't have Black.

(Exit Dementor)

ALL
On a train Dementors should not journey
They're all filled with slime and with pus
Here's a lesson that we ought to learn, we
Should only let them ride at the back of the bus.

 - CMC




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 12 03:28:13 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 03:28:13 -0000
Subject: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
In-Reply-To: <965br3+rce3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <967l8d+bau5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12082

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> Are you suggesting that JKR is a Muggle?!  Perish the thought!
> 
> Okay, let's say your basic eye problems (near- and far-sightedness, 
> etc.) are curable by magic.  So:
> 
> Why does Harry wear glasses?  Because no one's told him they can 
> clear up his myopia for him with a flick of a wand.
> 
But Hermione DID show him a charm that would keep rainwater off his 
glasses; wouldn't she have just told him to go to Madam Pomfrey after 
the game to get his eyes fixed? What about Arthur Weasley, when Harry 
broke his glasses in Knockturn Alley?

As for PWD students, I'm sure that the first thing they'd be taught 
are the relevant spells; possibly a variant of the Sonorus Charm for 
someone who's non-verbal, at the very least an Accessibility Spell if 
not a reverse of the Leg-Locker Curse for someone unable to walk, etc.




From homanm at umich.edu  Mon Feb 12 03:33:53 2001
From: homanm at umich.edu (homanm at umich.edu)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 03:33:53 -0000
Subject: brand new fanfiction
Message-ID: <967lj1+6mcl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12083

Hi Everyone.
I'm sending this message to several HP mailing lists, so I'm sorry 
for any doubles people get.  I just wanted to announce that my little 
brother has just posted the first two chapters of his very first HP 
fan fiction on ff.net, and he would love to have some people review 
it.  It's pretty funny, and I promise your time won't be wasted.  His 
screen name is Gokuh4060 and the title of his story is "The 
Importance of Being Ron."  His author page is here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/?action=Directory-
AuthorProfile&UserID=42157
A million thanks to everyone who writes him a review.  He wants to be 
a professional writer someday, but he lacks confidence in his ability 
to be funny.  Please help him out!
Love,
Meg




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 12 03:41:37 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 03:41:37 -0000
Subject: Weird names (back on topic)(and off again!)
In-Reply-To: <F143CkWHZqYW8BYXifW00008b28@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <967m1h+ihb0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12084

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> These were the lengthened names we came up with.
> 
> Ron--Ronald
> Ginny--Virginia, Ginger, or something else with a "Gin" root (my 
handy-dandy 
> baby name book states that Ginny is a nickname for those two)
> 
I always thought "Ginny" was short for "Virginia"; "Ginger" is a nice 
possibility, however, particularly with a "Fred" in the family! As 
for "Ron" this is one more reason it's a Good Thing JKR is British. 
An American family having a son named "Ronald", and born in 1980/81 
says more about the parents' politics than anything else!
> 
> One of my major pet peeves in fanfiction is that I *hate* when 
writers 
> misspell canon names.  I will NOT read fanfics by or 
starring "Hermoine".  

I know a woman named "Hermoine"! Her parents wanted to name 
her "Hermione" (decades before HP), but the DOCTOR misspelled it on 
the birth certificate. I also have a cousin named "Bennjamin" because 
his mother was left to fill the certificate out herself, still on 
painkillers from the delivery, and put the first "n" down twice when 
she was distracted.
 BTW, I've also met an elderly gentleman named Ronald Macdonald. He 
said that he's been told many times that he should do commercials for 
Burger King. 




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb 12 04:00:55 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 04:00:55 -0000
Subject: Weird names (off topic again!)
In-Reply-To: <967m1h+ihb0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <967n5n+hmgr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12085

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:

> As for "Ron" this is one more reason it's a Good Thing JKR is
> British. An American family having a son named "Ronald", and born
> in 1980/81 says more about the parents' politics than anything 
> else!

There was a time when it was quite common for Americans to name 
their sons after the President then in office, regardless whether 
they agreed with his politics. I was reminded of this obsolete custom 
when a friend told me about his mother's doctors. "There's old Dr. 
Magoo, Dr. Herbert, he's the father, and there's young Dr. Magoo, Dr. 
Glenn, he's the son, and I get the impression there's another Dr. 
Magoo, Dr. Harry, but I've never seen him."

"He must be the Holy Ghost," I replied, and went on to speculate that 
we could determine the ages of the Drs. Magoo from their given names, 
with Dr. Herbert born in 1928-32, when Herbert Hoover was President, 
Dr. Harry in 1945-52 when Harry Truman was President, and Dr. Glenn 
whatever year it was that John Glenn was the first human to orbit the 
earth.  




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Feb 12 06:25:34 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:25:34 -0000
Subject: eyeglasses, buck teeth, and other problems
In-Reply-To: <967l8d+bau5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <967vku+jro6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12086


> > 
> > Okay, let's say your basic eye problems (near- and far-
sightedness, 
> > etc.) are curable by magic.  So:
> > 
> > Why does Harry wear glasses?  Because no one's told him they can 
> > clear up his myopia for him with a flick of a wand.

I wonder--and this is just off the top of my head--if it has to do 
with the whole thing of why the Wizarding World wants to keep itself 
secret from Muggles...they don't approve of magic being used to just 
make mundane problems go away and they know that that's what Muggles 
would want to use magic for. Maybe one of the basic philosophies of 
the Wizarding World is that you don't just zap your wand here there 
and everywhere trying to make yourself perfect in every way, that 
doing so wouldn't be good for your character and everyone knows it. 
You accept who you are, you work within the minor limitations we all 
have in one area or another, because that's part of being a whole 
person. 

Does that make any sense at all?

Then does the fact fit in that it took an unusual and slightly 
underhanded situation for Hermione to "fix" her teeth? She wouldn't 
have been able to just ask Pomfrey to change her teeth, but since she 
was in that unexpectedly perfect situation, she went for it. I mean, 
that's a clear example of a spell being available and Hermione not 
using it. I know, I know, her parents wanted her to have braces (for 
the same character reasons, probably) but she could have snuck around 
that, certainly. Following that logic, if Harry would accidentlly 
damage his eyes, he might be able to get Pomfrey unintentionally to 
get rid of his near or far sightedness. Maybe he'd better go out and 
wrestle with the Whomping Willow and see what happens. It almost 
worked for Davey Gudgeon!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Feb 12 06:58:28 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:58:28 -0000
Subject: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"
Message-ID: <000b01c094c1$34b2b5a0$fe3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12087

Okay, here is this weeks GoF discussion summary: Chapter 30  The
 Pensieve.

A character summary of Severus Snape will follow later today.. as if you
needed an excuse to discuss Snape...

Neil/FFA
_________________________

IN DUMBLEDORES OFFICE

Harry is left in Dumbledores office as Moody, Fudge and Dumbledore search
the grounds for Crouch Snr.  Nosing around, he spots the Pensieve inside a
cupboard, which is rather conveniently left open.  As he stares into the
light made liquid in this brain-basin, he is surprised to see a dimly lit
room with an empty chair in the centre, surrounded an audience of witches
and wizards, and, before you can say Aberforths Goat! he has fallen into
the image and is sitting next to a marginally younger Albus Dumbledore

TRIAL SCENE ONE

Realising that he is in a memory, Harry wonders about the location of the
room: It surely wasnt Hogwarts  He decides that it is probably a
dungeon.  Igor Karkaroff is escorted in by a couple of Dementors and
proceeds to name supporters of the Dark Lord in the hope of buying his
freedom:

**Antonin Dolohov (tortured countless Muggles, already in custody);
**Evan Rosier (dead, put up a fight);
**Travers (helped murder the Mckinnons, already in custody);
**Mulciber (specialised in the Imperius Curse, already in custody);
**Augustus Rookwood (a spy planted in the MoM).

Then, in desperation, as he is about to be returned to Azkaban, he screams
out Snapes name.  Dumbledore leaps to Snapes defence and say that,
although Snape had been a Death Eater, he had returned to our side and
turned spy for us.

TRIAL SCENE TWO

The scene fades and a new one replaces it, in which a younger, fit Ludo
Bagman is up before the Council of Magical Law.  Bagman had been caught
passing information to Rookwood, but claims he had no idea that Rookwood was
a spy; he had been tempted by the promise of a post-Quidditch job at the
MoM.  The crowd becomes outraged at the idea that this popular Quidditch
star could end up in Azakaban, so, when the jury is asked to vote on the
matter, none of them raises a hand.  Crouch is incensed.  The day Ludo
Bagman joins us will be a very sad day for the Ministry he seethes.

TRIAL SCENE THREE

The scene fades and returns again.  Its more recent still, and this time
the place is silent.  Four people are brought in:

**a thickset man;
**a thinner and more nervous-looking man;
**a woman with thick, shining dark hair, and heavily hooded eyes who
treats her chair like a throne
   (and who later screams, We alone were faithful [to Voldemort]!);
**a petrified boy in his late teens with straw-coloured hair (Crouch
Jnr)

Crouch Snr accuses the four prisoners of having subjected the Longbottoms to
the Crutiatus Curse.  Frank Longbottom had been an auror and supposedly knew
the whereabouts of Voldemort.  The jury vote to send them all to Azkaban,
for life.  As Crouch Jnr is dragged out of the courtroom, begging his father
to intervene, Crouch Snr renounces him.

BACK IN THE OFFICE

Real-time Dumbledore returns and pulls Harry back into the office.  He
explains the workings of the Pensieve and demonstrates it by removing a
thought strand from his head with his wand (ewwww!).  Among other things, it
reveals a memory of Professor Snape saying its coming back and
Karkaroffs toostronger and clearer than ever.

Harry tells Dumbledore about the dream he had in his Divination lesson about
Voldemort, Wormtail and the snake (Nagini) and that he had woken up when
his scar hurt.  Dumbledore has a theory that the scar hurts when Voldemort
is near Harry or feeling a particularly strong surge of hatred, because
they are connected by the curse that failed.

Dumbledore begins pacing up and down, occasionally transferring thoughts to
the Pensieve, and becoming so distracted that Harry is forced to keep
calling his attention back to their conversation.  Dumbledore reveals that,
like Harry, he has been in correspondence with Sirius Black.  They discuss
the Longbottoms, and Harry realises that in four years he never bothered to
find out why Neville lives with his grandmother.   Finally, Harry asks
Dumbledore why he thinks Snape no longer supports Voldemort, and Dumbledore
says, with a note of finality, That is a matter between Professor Snape and
myself.

As Harry leaves the office, he sees Dumbledore looking older than ever.

QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

(1) Dumbledore seems to age whenever he uses the Pensieve, is this a
trade-off for using it?
(2) Curiosity is not a sinbut we should exercise caution with our
curiosity, says message-of-the-day-Dumbledore.  Would Harry find something
he didnt want to know if he dug too deeply?
(3) Will Harry befriend Neville and will Neville seek revenge for the attack
on his parents?
(4) Bagman is described as muscly.  This is not a word.  Could this be
evidence that JKR did indeed write the infamous wand order revision, using
that non-word untidy-haired?
(5) Could Dumbledores reference to our side imply some sort of organised
group or is it a reference to non-V supporters in general?
(6) Crouch says to Karkaroff: you have been brought from Azkaban to give
evidence to the Ministry of Magic. So, was this dungeon at the MoM?
(7) Who were the other people on trial with Crouch Jnr?  The Lestranges?
Who else?




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 07:57:55 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:57:55 -0000
Subject: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"
In-Reply-To: <000b01c094c1$34b2b5a0$fe3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <968523+au18@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12088

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Okay, here is this week's GoF discussion summary: Chapter 30 ? "The
>  Pensieve".
> 
> A character summary of Severus Snape will follow later today.. as 
if you
> needed an excuse to discuss Snape...
> 

Nah, the ever-fascinating Severus? Heaven forbid we ever run out of 
things to say about him. 

<snip>
> QUESTIONS/COMMENTS
> 
> (1) Dumbledore seems to age whenever he uses the Pensieve, is this a
> trade-off for using it?

Mmmm. It seems to me like it's just an effect of the depressing 
memories that makes him age before Harry's eyes. 

> (2) "Curiosity is not a sin
but we should exercise caution with our
> curiosity," says message-of-the-day-Dumbledore.  Would Harry find 
something
> he didn't want to know if he dug too deeply?

I'm guessing this is related to how Dumbledore wouldn't Tell All to 
Harry at the end of SS/PS. There must be some really shocking secret 
in store, at least as my radar registers. 


> (3) Will Harry befriend Neville and will Neville seek revenge for 
the attack
> on his parents?

They already are on good terms, so why not? Using my crystal ball, I 
see Neville becoming an even more important character. I think he'd 
prefer to cure them somehow before seeking revenge, but that it would 
be an interesting plot twist for him to confront his parents' 
attackers. 

<snip>
> (5) Could Dumbledore's reference to "our side" imply some sort of 
organised
> group or is it a reference to non-V supporters in general?

I would suspect the latter, as supporting Voldemort was eminently not 
a respectable position at the time, and everyone was assumed to be 
against him. 

<snip>
> (7) Who were the other people on trial with Crouch Jnr?  The 
Lestranges?
> Who else?

>From Voldemort's comments, it seems very likely. 

More questions:  
Do you think we'll see the Pensieve again? We conventionally see from 
Harry's viewpoint, and normally only extended narration by another 
character would let us see into the past. 
Was Crouch Jr. lying at the trial, during his outburst?
Did Rita Skeeter report all of the trials? Is all that Harry has seen 
generally known? 

Charmian






From doreen_iowa at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 12 09:23:49 2001
From: doreen_iowa at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:23:49 -0000
Subject: OT: British English help!
In-Reply-To: <fb.117b34fc.27b80157@aol.com>
Message-ID: <968a35+m18b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12089




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., andeinmn at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/11/01 2:10:47 AM Central Standard Time, 
> doreen_iowa at y... writes:
> 
> > Hi 
> >   
> >  I am new to this kind of group.. so I don't know if I am doing 
this 
> >  correctly. I see that you got your answer to the "revisions" 
> >  question. If anyone has any other "British terms", feel free to 
email 
> >  me, as I do have a very kind British friend, who supplies me 
with 
> >  definitions for such terms as "plus fours", "treacle", 
and "tripe".
> >  
> >  I am in the middle of reading "The Goblet of Fire", having just 
read 
> >  the other three books in about six days. As soon as I finish 
that, I 
> >  will get busy on the British terms list to send to the lexicon 
> >  website.
> >  
> >  My email address is nera at r... 
> >  
> >  Doreen from Iowa
> >  
>  
> Hi Doreen and welcome from your neighbor to the north.  Hope you 
have fun 
> here and I am looking forward to seeing your list on the Lexicon.
> 
> Andrea

Thank you, Andrea. I have found a great partner in my endeavor. I get 
to do the easy part... supplying him with Strictly British words or 
phrases that we "foreigners" do not use in our every day speech. He 
and his friends are then going to be kind enough to supply the 
Strictly British definitions of these words or phrases, not so much 
as they might appear in a dictionary, (I have looked some up) but 
rather how they are used in UK every day speech. A much more 
interesting way of approaching it, I think. His name is Neil Ward and 
you probably know him all ready.

When Neil offered his help, I could not put it off, but started 
sending him stuff from SS. We decided to start at the beginning and 
go from book to book, with a few exceptions. 

Doreen aka Ms_Lagmuggle






From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Feb 12 11:45:12 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:45:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
References: <967l8d+bau5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c094e9$43070c00$28eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12090


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nlpnt at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 10:28 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.


  As for PWD students, I'm sure that the first thing they'd be taught 
  are the relevant spells; possibly a variant of the Sonorus Charm for 
  someone who's non-verbal, at the very least an Accessibility Spell if 
  not a reverse of the Leg-Locker Curse for someone unable to walk, etc.



  I have to disagree here.  I think this is oversimplifying.  The sonorous charm works on the voice itself. Most children who are nonverbal due to neurological disabilities have absolutely no problem with their voices, but instead with the parts of their brain that control their ability to use language.  Besides, I'd like to think that if a child has a disability that can be fixed or changed by magic, it would be done in the early years by  trained medical wizards.

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Mon Feb 12 12:14:39 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:14:39 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
References: <965bt6+frsm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a101c094ed$66661520$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12091

Ahh, I love this subject!

All right - that's my theory:
I think that Dumbledore keeps Snape as a teacher not because Snape needs
protection, not because of favouritism but simply because Snape is a *good*
teacher.
Don't kill me before I have a chance to explain!
To be a good teacher, you don't need to like your job (though it helps a
lot), you don't have to be nice, kind, pedagogical or sympathetic. Those
qualities are necessary if you want to be more that a teacher - a tutor. If
you want to be a teacher, it's important how much your students learn and
how well they understand your subject.

A bit off-topic explanation: at high school, my father used to have a math
teacher who was *absolutely* horrible person. She used to yell at her
students, girls rutinely were taking tranquilizers before her lessons, she
was the most hated person at school and yet, more than 20 years later at a
reunion her former students insisted that she was the best teacher! It was
amazing, they were remembering how awful she was and marvelling what a good
teacher she was - all in the same sentence. Reason was very simple - she
*taught* her students math. She taught them so well they haven't even notice
it before they went to universities and *saw* that they are much better at
math than other people. And one more thing - I would like to see somebody
trying to upset my dad by *yelling* at him.

Back on topic, Snape seems to be able to knock some knowledge into his
students' heads. Hermione, Harry and Ron prepare Polyjuice Potion in their
second year. The Weasley twins and Lee Jordan use Ageing potion to get
through Age Line in GoF and I assume they made it themselves.

Snape might be a worse teacher than Lupin or McGonagall, but he's *far*
better than Trelawney or - sorry to say that - Hagrid.

And besides, Dumbledore doesn't seem to mind that members of his staff are
rude to students or even to other teachers. He doesn't mind that Filtch
bullies students, he doesn't react when McGonagall mocks Trelawney *in
public* (Christ, I could never understand this!).

As for Snape's behaviour in class, my pet theory is that Snape *likes* being
mean to students. So, in order to amuse himself (and other Slytherins) he is
awfull to following parties beacause:
a) Neville - he's Gryffindor, poor at potions, and an easy prey - some
people attack easy preys instictively, without even thinking of it, and for
me Snape is such a person. That's sort of :"Don't be so *weak*, you fool, or
I'll kill you for that!". With such people around, delicate persons either
harden up or disintegrate.
b) Harry and Ron - they are Gryffindors, not too bright at potions,
rule-brakers, they escape due punishment much too often, they talk back,
Harry dares to be James's son etc,
c) Hermione - she's a Gryffindor too, she speaks out of turn, dares to be
better at Potions than Slytherins and it's a challenge to upset her, because
she's got so much self control. Thanks Heaven one can ignore her, because
otherwise no Slytherin would have a chance to answer one's question and earn
points.

That's all I can think of bat the moment.

Monika Z.
(the Snape fan)




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 13:36:16 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:36:16 
Subject: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
Message-ID: <F2400IP5zGBprWC5YJO00009995@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12092

This post is dedicated to the entire Mod Squad, who thought the Great 
Shipping Debate was Resting In Peace.  Cheers!

First question--

One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to debunk HGTG is 
that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he doesn't 
have... the girl."

Validity of the above position aside... doesn't this reasoning work most 
satisfactorily if the hero actually wants the girl, and the girl (you have 
to admit the terminology involved in this position is troublesome) chooses 
the alternate hero/sidekick over him?

After all...

Ron has a lot that Harry doesn't have... red hair, height, 20/20 vision, 
formerly a rat... this list goes on a bit further, but you catch my drift.  
There is no indication thus far that Harry wants any of these things.

If Hermione also falls under this Unwanted category, I'm not sure how canon 
R/H would give Ron the satisfaction that he has something that Harry 
doesn't.  I'm not sure that even getting the girl at this point would 
completely alleviate his growing disquietude.

However...

If the H/Hers' FITD theory is *reversed* all of a sudden from

R----->He---(?)--->Ha----->C/R/no one

to a chain that is highly implausible at this point in canon--

Ha----->He----->R

...it seems as if this would satisfy the R/H argument that "Ron needs 
something that Harry doesn't have" to "Ron deserves something that Harry 
doesn't have *and wants*."

Since there is no canonical evidence whatsoever of Reversed FITD, how does 
Ron Getting Hermione (winces again at the terminology) fulfill the criteria 
set forth by R/Hers in the first place?

I'm not arguing my ship here.  Please help me understand.  And don't fear a 
trap!  Cassie's offline until at least Friday, Penny's not posting very 
much, and the other H/Hers are quiet, gentle souls.  So here I stand, all 
alone...  :::Ebony starts humming and singing:::

Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated, paired-off 
future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't arguing.  I got 
some silly responses that you'd have to check the chat transcripts for, but 
the top three answers were:  1)  Humdrum everyday things... what do all 
couples talk about?  2)  His work--her work.  3)  Talk?  They'd be too busy 
shagging.  ;o)  (Of course, all the H/H and no-shippers in the room ran away 
screaming at that point.)

I really want to make an honest attempt to understand the other PoV, but my 
brain is *refusing* to think along those lines. I need some help, please.  
As I'm on leave until next Monday, that means you guys have one week to get 
me to jump ship.  Who knows?  Perhaps I'll be traveling on the Good Ship R/H 
by March... don't look at me like that!  Stranger things have happened!

Thanks ever so much in advance,

Ebony (who, in writing Episode 7 of her soap, is going through an entire 
case of virtual Pepto)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery
_________________________________________________________________
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From steffiwulf at writeme.com  Mon Feb 12 14:07:46 2001
From: steffiwulf at writeme.com (steffiwulf at writeme.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:07:46 -0000
Subject: slightly OT: wunderful Charater summarys
Message-ID: <968qni+rrgs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12093

Hi you all!

I have been lurking for a while, and I really liked these wunderful 
Character Summaries and the following discussions.
I would like to put these characterisations on my homepage and want 
to get the permission to translate them (into German) and post them.

Steffi Silberstreif






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Feb 12 14:14:11 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:14:11 -0000
Subject: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"
In-Reply-To: <000b01c094c1$34b2b5a0$fe3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <968r3j+llf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12094

> 

> (2) "Curiosity is not a sin
but we should exercise caution with our
> curiosity," says message-of-the-day-Dumbledore.  Would Harry find 
something
> he didn't want to know if he dug too deeply?

My thought is that perhaps Dumbledore left it out deliberately for 
Harry to examine - as a way of conveying certain things to Harry that 
he could not come out and say - such as his suspicions of Karkaroff, 
Bagman and Crouch (did Dumbledore already suspect that Barty Crouch 
Jr. might stil be around?), and the nature of the post-Voldemort 
legal process, in which the demands of justice were not adhered to. 
Harry's reaction when he sees Crouch Jr. convicted - his realization 
of the immense tragic cost of Voldemort's ambition - seems to suggest 
that Harry received the message.

> (4) Bagman is described as "muscly".  This is not a word.  Could 
this be
> evidence that JKR did indeed write the infamous wand order 
revision, using
> that non-word "untidy-haired"?

Writers create new words all the time, and I'm tempted to say that 
the better the writer, the more such coinages you will find, since 
good writers have greater creativity.  Just think of Shakespeare and 
Joyce.  And until Rowling came along, Dementor, Quidditch, time-
turners, floo powder, pensieve, etc. were not "real" words, either.

But they are now.


     - CMC




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Mon Feb 12 14:27:14 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:27:14 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible Error
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDD1@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 12095

I just read that part myself and thought the same thing!  

Here's another question, brought up to me by a friend of mine this weekend.

We see several times (most specifically in GoF when Hedwig is finding
Sirius) that when sending owl post, the owls can find people pretty much
anywhere they are, right?  Why then in PoA did nobody ever send an owl to
Sirius and just follow it on broomstick to find his whereabouts?

I told him that there had to be some kind of charm that allows someone not
to be found by owl post if they're in hiding, but he said that wasn't a good
enough answer and so I now turn to you.  If anybody has an answer, it has to
be you guys!

Meredith

** -----Original Message-----
** From: joym999 at aol.com [mailto:joym999 at aol.com]
** Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 4:32 PM
** To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
** Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible Error
** 
** 
** I found what I feel is (sort of) an error on JKRs part.  In SS/PS, 
** chapter 5, the first time Harry goes to Diagon Alley, with Hagrid.  
** They pass a witch selling dragon livers for 17 sickles an ounce 
** (Theyre mad!).  This is on page 72 of the Scholastic PB edition.  
** Several pages later (pg. 75 of the Scholastic PB edition) Hagrid 
** explains to Harry how wizard money works - as we all know, there are 
** 29 bronze Knuts in a silver Sickle and 17 Sickles to a gold 
** Galleon.  
** But if 17 Sickles = 1 Galleon, why say that something cost 17 
** sickles?  Isnt that like saying that something cost 100 cents?  I 
** think this is an oversight on JKRs part.  And if you think I must be 
** really insane and desperate to have been reduced to this level of 
** nitpicking, you are absolutely right.
** 
** --Joywitch
** 
** 
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From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Mon Feb 12 15:12:56 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:12:56 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Weird Names
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDD2@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 12096

And I thought the twins my dad went to school with were bad - Syphillis
(pronounced sih-FIL-us) and Gonorrhea (pronounced guh-NOHR-ee-uh)! 

Meredith, who also knew of a set of twins named Orangejello and Lemonjello
pronounced like the pair we read about before.  Hoo-boy... some people.


** Yeah, these names are bad and all, but my mom (former 
** preschool director) 
** had a student whose name spelled Sh*thead, but pronounced 
** Sha-they-id.
** 
** 
** >
** >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nathan" <duo at d...> wrote:
** > >
** > > peaking of weird names, I have a friend named Baryon Tensor. His
** >older
** > > brother is Agham Bayan which means Science Nation. And 
** his twin kid
** >brothers
** > > are Hector Atom and Vector Ion.
** > > Yes, their parents are experimental physicists of great 
** renown here.
** >
** >My mother, in her years of teaching elementary school, has 
** come across
** >some real all-stars. For instance (and I swear to God these 
** are real):
** >"Damage" (pronounced Dah-MAH-jay)
** >"Female" (pronounced Feh-MAH-lee)
** >...and my personal favorite...
** >"Canine" (pronounced Ka-NEEN)
** >Parents aren't exactly rocket scientists (or experimental 
** physicists,
** >for that matter).
** >-Mike
** >
** 
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From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 15:14:42 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:14:42 
Subject: Owl Post (was:  Possible Error)
Message-ID: <F130C5T2mXNx3m4vOyi0000998a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12097

Meredith wrote:

"We see several times (most specifically in GoF when Hedwig is finding
Sirius) that when sending owl post, the owls can find people pretty much
anywhere they are, right?  Why then in PoA did nobody ever send an owl to 
Sirius and just follow it on broomstick to find his whereabouts?

"I told him that there had to be some kind of charm that allows someone not 
to be found by owl post if they're in hiding, but he said that wasn't a good 
enough answer and so I now turn to you.  If anybody has an answer, it has to 
be you guys!"
*******

While I can't speak for JKR, there are a couple fanon solutions that I've 
seen employed to ensure confidentiality of post:

1)  Stealth owls.  These owls are invisible in flight... bird and post only 
appear to sender and recipient.

2)  Speed of enchanted owls.  Perhaps it is impossible to follow an owl via 
broomstick... they travel too fast, or in another dimension entirely.

Something else to take into account is found in SS Ch. 1.  Vernon and the 
newscasters took note of the unusual number of owls traveling in broad 
daylight.  This always struck me as strange... in canon, none of the wizards 
or witches we've met have taken particular care to only send post at night.  
Mail usually arrives at Hogwarts in the morning, but while at the Dursleys, 
Harry receives mail at various times of the day (I think).  Or perhaps I've 
missed something.  What do you think?

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Mon Feb 12 15:15:03 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:15:03 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Welcome back, Mr.Potter
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDD3@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 12098

I believe he was just saying "Welcome back to the wizarding world," although
I have to smile at the thought of a Mr. Kotter reference.

Meredith


** I remember noticed that too. However, I doubt Rowling would 
** make a reference 
** to the tv show "Welcome back, Mr. Kotter."  Maybe I am just a stupid 
** American, but I doubt that show was popular enough to be 
** aired in England.  
** Its not even on syndacation here(Texas), even on Nick-at-Night.
** Signe
** 
** Riet wrote:
** 
** >"Bless my soul," whispered the old barman. "Harry Potter ... what an
** >honour."
** >....."Welcome back, Mr Potter, welcome back."
** >Does anybody know why Tom says "Welcome back", instead of 
** just a hearty
** >"Welcome"?
** >Just curious.
** >Hastily crawling back into lurkdom now...
** >Riet
** 
** 
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 15:28:19 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:28:19 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
In-Reply-To: <F2400IP5zGBprWC5YJO00009995@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <968vej+it41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12099

Ebony wrote:

> If Hermione also falls under this Unwanted category, I'm not sure 
how canon 
> R/H would give Ron the satisfaction that he has something that Harry 
> doesn't.  I'm not sure that even getting the girl at this point 
would 
> completely alleviate his growing disquietude.

Huh.  I'm not arguing my ship here either--I'm just musing about Ron's 
character and his and Harry's relationship.

I don't think succeeding in romance with Hermione, whether short- or 
long-term, would exactly alleviate Ron's disquietude (nice 
phrase)--although it would make his second-class status less pressing 
an issue.  That would be not because he now has something Harry 
doesn't, but because he's happy.  Success in love will make all sorts 
of unhappinesses seem unimportant.

No--the thing that would be most intolerable to Ron would be if Harry 
*wasn't* particularly interested in Hermione but Hermione was 
interested in Harry, and H/H ended up together (again, whether short- 
or long-term, it doesn't really matter--two months, even two weeks, 
can be an eternity to a friendship).  It is so galling when you are 
jealous of someone and he doesn't even *want* the things that you 
covet.  Harry doesn't want to be famous, but still, it gets him out of 
trouble with the Ministry and it gets him dates (which he also doesn't 
want).  He doesn't want to have his name come out of the Goblet, and I 
think Ron, on the deepest level, knows that very well, but still, it 
gets him the fame that Ron envies.

So I'm thinking that for Ron, what would be worse than Harry falling 
in love with Hermione, asking her out, and succeeding, would be Harry 
being indifferent to Hermione, but her asking him out and succeeding. 
 That's what's so misery-inducing about HGTG for me.  And if Harry and 
Hermione did get together, this is how it would likely be, IMO, 
because IMO Harry has zero romantic interest in Hermione right now.  
That could change in a single chapter, but there would still be that 
resentment from Ron:  I liked her first, and nothing ever came of it, 
and damn it, Harry just sails in and says "ooh, that would be nice," 
and love falls into his lap.  Just like the invisibility cloak, just 
like the Firebolt, just like the Triwizard tournament . . . so go the 
workings of the irrational jealous mind.

Does this make sense?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
Harry liked this clock.  It was completely
useless if you wanted to know the time, but
otherwise very informative.
                 --HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 15:39:40 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:39:40 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Questions for R/Hers...
Message-ID: <F307cwOzwkHdYyesqN000009a2d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12100

Hi, Amy and list...

I wrote:
>
> > If Hermione also falls under this Unwanted category, I'm not sure
>how canon
> > R/H would give Ron the satisfaction that he has something that Harry
> > doesn't.  I'm not sure that even getting the girl at this point
>would
> > completely alleviate his growing disquietude.
>

Amy wrote, among a lot of other *great* stuff:

>"Tthe thing that would be most intolerable to Ron would be if Harry
>*wasn't* particularly interested in Hermione but Hermione was
>interested in Harry, and H/H ended up together (again, whether short-
>or long-term, it doesn't really matter--two months, even two weeks,
>can be an eternity to a friendship).  It is so galling when you are
>jealous of someone and he doesn't even *want* the things that you
>covet."

I try to avoid pats on the back that don't add to the discussion.  But that 
was a GOOD post, Amy.  So good, in fact, that I can go back to writing for 
awhile.  Made complete sense to me.

It's really hard to write a character whose motivations you don't quite 
understand.  So I'll be sure to send you all my Ron questions in the future. 
  Ever thought about becoming his therapist?  With you on his team, he 
couldn't help but be "The Best Man", to quote one of the popular Ron 
writers.  ;-)

--Ebony (giggling at the thought of Ron on Amy's couch, telling her all his 
troubles)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Feb 12 15:44:34 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:44:34 -0000
Subject: Owl Post (was:  Possible Error)
In-Reply-To: <F130C5T2mXNx3m4vOyi0000998a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9690d2+n7c4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12101

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> Something else to take into account is found in SS Ch. 1.  Vernon 
and the 
> newscasters took note of the unusual number of owls traveling in 
broad 
> daylight.  This always struck me as strange... in canon, none of 
the wizards 
> or witches we've met have taken particular care to only send post 
at night.  
> Mail usually arrives at Hogwarts in the morning, but while at the 
Dursleys, 
> Harry receives mail at various times of the day (I think).  Or 
perhaps I've 
> missed something.  What do you think?
> 

I think the issue in this part wasn't the fact that there were owls 
out during the day - it was that there were so MANY of them, given 
the fact that (a) all the death eaters were locking themselves in 
their libraries and sending out "Oh, $%)#!" emails to each other, and 
(b) all the good guys were sending Singing Owl Posts to each other, 
set to the tune of that Muggle song (which was infrequently played at 
magical funerals by people who *just didn't get it*) from that 
1930something Judy Garland movie. 
In other words, if ordinary Owl Post days are like March 12 (i.e. a 
day when nothing major is going on), November 1, 1981 is like 
December 23 in the Muggle world (i.e. very very busy)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 15:44:56 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:44:56 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  P.S. on what they'd talk about
In-Reply-To: <F2400IP5zGBprWC5YJO00009995@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9690do+nbkc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12102

Ebony wrote:

> Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated, 
paired-off 
> future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't arguing.  I 
got 
> some silly responses that you'd have to check the chat transcripts 
for, but 
> the top three answers were:  1)  Humdrum everyday things... what do 
all 
> couples talk about?  2)  His work--her work.  3)  Talk?  They'd be 
too busy 
> shagging.  

Okay, that last one was me, and it was a JOKE!

Seriously, I can't imagine what Ron and Hermione would talk about any 
better than I can imagine them in bed.  I mean, I don't know what they 
talk about NOW, but I do completely accept that they are very close 
friends.  

I don't know what H&H would talk about either, nor what they talk 
about now.  I don't even know what Harry & Ron talk about, except 
it no doubt includes Quidditch.  Again, I buy into their friendship 
totally--I see how much all three love and trust each other and how 
much they enjoy each other's company--even without witnessing any of 
the heart-to-hearts that I would want to have in any of my close 
relationships.

All of which might be the reason that I'm less a "I really want this 
relationship to happen" shipper than an "I think this is where JKR's 
heading" shipper, because I can't see that far into the future with 
these folks.  Heck, I can't even tell you what I talk about with my 
closest friends without it sounding pretty ordinary (What's going on 
with our jobs.  What's going on with our relationships.  What movies 
we've seen lately.  Etc.), but it isn't--these conversations are the 
stuff love is made of.  All of which is to say (yes, she DOES have a 
point) that you can't easily judge a ship's seaworthiness by the 
answer to the question "What would they talk about?"

Amy Z

one for AngieJ:
-------------------------------------------------
  "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye
Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly.
  "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he,"
said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room.  
"Birds of a feather."
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 16:11:26 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:11:26 -0000
Subject: New words - When Dementors Journey
Message-ID: <9691ve+8vhd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12103

CM wrote:

> Writers create new words all the time, and I'm tempted to say that 
> the better the writer, the more such coinages you will find, since 
> good writers have greater creativity.  Just think of Shakespeare and 
> Joyce.  And until Rowling came along, Dementor, Quidditch, time-
> turners, floo powder, pensieve, etc. were not "real" words, either.
> 
> But they are now.

And "owl" wasn't a verb, nor did "send me an owl" make any sense.  I'm 
hoping that one makes it into the general vocabulary.

Great job on the Dementor filk!  Oddly, I loved the line "Harry passes 
out"--must be your comic timing.  Also the time-turning Dickens 
ghost.  Wow--a filk dedication and a filk of one of my favorite scenes 
on the same day.  Can life get any better than this?

>Here's a lesson that we ought to learn, we
>Should only let them ride at the back of the bus.

Will Hermione now lead the way in forming CORE (Creatures who Osculate 
Rate Equality)?  Will the NAACP (Nihilistic, Azkaban-Algidifying 
Creatures' Party) lend a hand?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
  "Do you mean to tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that
this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" 
  Harry thought this was going a bit far. 
                               -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Feb 12 16:37:51 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:37:51 -0000
Subject: Possible Error
In-Reply-To: <964mi3+gpra@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9693gv+vmcb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12104

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> I found what I feel is (sort of) an error on JKRs part.  In SS/PS, 
> chapter 5, the first time Harry goes to Diagon Alley, with Hagrid.  
> They pass a witch selling dragon livers for 17 sickles an ounce 
> (Theyre mad!).  This is on page 72 of the Scholastic PB edition.  
> Several pages later (pg. 75 of the Scholastic PB edition) Hagrid 
> explains to Harry how wizard money works - as we all know, there are 
> 29 bronze Knuts in a silver Sickle and 17 Sickles to a gold Galleon. 
 
> But if 17 Sickles = 1 Galleon, why say that something cost 17 
> sickles?  Isnt that like saying that something cost 100 cents?  I 
> think this is an oversight on JKRs part.  And if you think I must be 
> really insane and desperate to have been reduced to this level of 
> nitpicking, you are absolutely right.
> 
> --Joywitch

I don't think it's an oversight. I think it's more of a pun on real 
life advertizing. Things are sold for $19.99 rather $20.00 because 
$19.99 seems less expensive (okay it's by one penny, but 
psychologically it seems alot cheaper). It's like those "5-10% off 
entire inventory sales", depending upon the original cost, you might 
just be paying the original price minus the 5% sales tax.

Milz   




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 17:25:06 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:25:06 -0000
Subject: Possible Error
In-Reply-To: <9693gv+vmcb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96969i+7aa2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12105

Milz wrote:
> 
> I don't think it's an oversight. I think it's more of a pun on real 
> life advertizing. 

Thanks, Milz!  I have been trying to articulate what I think is going 
on in this scene but couldn't for some reason.  I agree with you.  I 
think I've even come across this exact thing, not in the U.S. but 
elsewhere--using the smaller denomination to describe the price even 
though you could say "1 Galleon" instead.  Anyone from another country 
want to chime in?

A U.S. equivalent might be selling some things by ounce-prices instead 
of pound-prices.  If you looked at herb prices by the pound, you'd 
never buy them.  But you'll pay $2/oz.  (This is legit advertising 
though, because who DOES buy herbs by the pound?)

Amy Z

---------------------------------------
"We don't send people to Azkaban 
just for blowing up their aunts!"
       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
---------------------------------------




From rina at love-productions.com  Mon Feb 12 17:35:30 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:35:30 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
Message-ID: <009c01c0951a$49e4e5c0$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12106

Ebony wrote:

<<One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to debunk HGTG is that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he doesn't have... the girl."

Validity of the above position aside... doesn't this reasoning work most 
satisfactorily if the hero actually wants the girl, and the girl (you have 
to admit the terminology involved in this position is troublesome) chooses 
the alternate hero/sidekick over him?...If Hermione also falls under this Unwanted category, I'm not sure how canon 
R/H would give Ron the satisfaction that he has something that Harry 
doesn't.  I'm not sure that even getting the girl at this point would 
completely alleviate his growing disquietude.>>

Okay. This has never been my argument, so I'm probably not going to do the R/Hers any good here. <g> I think that if it turns into Ron "getting" Hermione (I'm ruffling my OWN feminist feathers here!) when Harry wants her (Is there a better way to be saying this?), that would be bad, because that would pretty much ruin their friendships. That's when it turns into something akin to pettiness/jealousy/pity instead of actual love. You're right, that does Ron no good, because not only did he lose his best friend, but he lost a real relationship with Hermione because of the lousy way they entered it.

I've been sitting here reading your message repeatedly, and damned if I can't even defend the above rationale that apparently some R/Hers have taken, because it's rather insulting. Who started that?! LOL The relationship between Ron and Hermione should be just that - BETWEEN RON AND HERMIONE. If either one is going into it with the feeling that "Well, Harry has everything else, so I should be with Ron/Hermione should be with me," then watch me turn and jump ship. LOL What reason is THAT to base a relationship on? It'll go nowhere. 

I don't like HGTG because I don't think the hero wants the girl, and the girl doesn't want the hero, and for the love of all that is holy, why isn't here a better way of phrasing this? <g> Besides, all of this discussion isn't portraying Hermione in a very positive light. We're all pretty much disregarding who she likes in all this "Hero gets the girl, damn it!" and "Ron doesn't have anything, so give HIM the girl, damn it!" talk.  I personally can't wait until we see some more textual evidence as to who Hermione actually likes. I read what has happened so far as she likes Ron and is getting frusterated with his thick-headedness, but she hasn't come out and said anything in either direction. 

<<Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated, paired-off 
future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't arguing.  I got 
some silly responses that you'd have to check the chat transcripts for, but 
the top three answers were:  1)  Humdrum everyday things... what do all 
couples talk about?  2)  His work--her work.  3)  Talk?  They'd be too busy 
shagging.  ;o)  (Of course, all the H/H and no-shippers in the room ran away 
screaming at that point.)>>

What's wrong with these things? This is what couples talk about. At least, that is, from what I've seen of my parents, my friend's parents, and my married friends. Mundane is mundane because it's everyday things that happen - everyone eats, so they talk about dinner, etc. I see R/H talking about work, household chores, laundry, plans for the weekend, that vacation Ron is dragging her on because she's a workaholic, things like that. <g> They have friends in common, too, so they talk about and with them. I mean, gosh, what do they talk about now? What do Harry and Hermione talk about now? R/Harry have Quidditch, but there's not really a lot holding these three together, in terms of having things in common. And that's not bad - my best friend and I have been best friends for 16 years now, and we are practically polar opposites. But I don't question the fact that she's my best friend any more than I question the fact that the trio are best friends. 

So, I toss the question back to you. If you think these "mundane" things are bad, what do you think Harry and Hermione would talk about?

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rina at love-productions.com  Mon Feb 12 17:47:50 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:47:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
Message-ID: <00a601c0951b$f1195a00$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12107

ender wrote:

<<I have to disagree here.  I think this is oversimplifying.  The sonorous charm works on the voice itself. Most children who are nonverbal due to neurological disabilities have absolutely no problem with their voices, but instead with the parts of their brain that control their ability to use language.  Besides, I'd like to think that if a child has a disability that can be fixed or changed by magic, it would be done in the early years by  trained medical wizards.>>

I agree on all counts, ender. Why would kids have to wait until they were 11 to learn these charms? I'd see it more like a school for the deaf - children often start school as early as two so they can learn sign and stuff like that. Maybe there's a equivilant school where young wizard kids would learn appropriate spells/charms that would help them overcome speech, or hearing, or walking disorders. But doesn't this kind of head into the wizards staying separate from Muggles because Muggles would want magic solutions to everything? It also kinda dangerously veers into "fixing" kids with special needs. Sure, my brother has a hearing impairment, and RTS, and mild mental retardation, and apraxia, but that's Josh. It's not all he is, but it's part of him and it's part of how his personality was shaped. He wouldn't be the same kid if there was a spell or charm to take away all of his special needs. Now whether that's good or bad is a pretty big topic, and also fairly off-topic. <g>

I'd like to think that Hogwarts would have MEPs (I just love that idea, Ender <g>) and appropriate accomodations, rather than a fix-all. After all, it has been brought up that they don't advocate cosmetic (teeth) fixing unless it's been directly impacted by a spell, and they don't seem to fix eyesight just on a whim. Maybe things could be done so that a nonverbal child could direct thoughts for spells?  

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb 12 18:21:17 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:21:17 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
In-Reply-To: <F2400IP5zGBprWC5YJO00009995@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9699it+dhdl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12108

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:

> Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated, paired-off 
> future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't arguing.  

Maybe they talk about the same things *we* talk about in chat...
which of their friends would make cute couples?
which of their friends would make repulsive couples?
who's secretly an animagus and what animal do they become?
what's the pounds/galleons conversion rate?
what's a schnoogle?

Pippin





From bbennett at joymail.com  Mon Feb 12 18:30:40 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:30:40 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
In-Reply-To: <F2400IP5zGBprWC5YJO00009995@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <969a4g+fc46@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12109

Hi Angie, 
I thought I'd jump in and take a stab at an answer. I'd love to
hear any comments, and let me know if I'm making any sense!

"Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:

> First question--
> 
> One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to 
debunk HGTG is that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves 
something that he doesn't  have... the girl."

> Validity of the above position aside... doesn't this reasoning work 
most satisfactorily if the hero actually wants the girl, and the girl 
(you have to admit the terminology involved in this position is 
troublesome) chooses the alternate hero/sidekick over him?

I think there's been some misinterpretation as to what HGTG
means. I know I'm relatively new to HP4GU, but I've never
thought HGTG was offered to support the idea that Ron deserves 
Hermione, but as a  theory to explain why some people think Harry 
will end up with Hermione. These are not exchangeable concepts (i.e. 
saying you think HGTG is the reason people think Harry and Hermione 
will pair up doesn't automatically mean you think HGTG is the
reason Ron and Hermione should pair up). Suggesting that Ron only 
deserves to "get" the girl just because Harry is the hero
isn't rational, nor is it particularly fair to the characters 
involved. Suggesting HGTG as a reason for the defense of H/H is just 
a theory, but it can be reasonably analyzed and debated. 

> ...it seems as if this would satisfy the R/H argument that "Ron 
needs something that Harry doesn't have" to "Ron deserves something 
that Harry doesn't have *and wants*."
> 
> Since there is no canonical evidence whatsoever of Reversed FITD, 
how does Ron Getting Hermione (winces again at the terminology) 
fulfill the criteria set forth by R/Hers in the first place?

I'm not sure what criteria was set forth, and although I know
FITD is "Farmer In the Dell" (you all are so good with the
acronyms), I don't know what it means. You ask that you'd
like a better idea of the "opposite" side. Here's the way
I see it:

I read an attraction of Ron to Hermione. I do not see an attraction 
on Harry's part toward Hermione; the story is written 3rd person 
limited omniscient and we would be aware if he had feelings for her, 
much in the same way we are aware of his attraction to Cho (or his 
feelings for anyone else, for that matter).  I don't see that 
Hermione is attracted to Harry, but I do read that she's
interested in Ron, based on her reactions to Fleur, the ball, etc. 
Actually, I went into GoF with my own assumption of Harry and 
Hermione, and was surprised (and delighted, actually) when I saw that 
Ron liked Hermione and, by my interpretation, that Hermione liked him 
back. I really hadn't bothered to look for any relationship 
patterning, and I thought JKR did a great job. I'm not trying to 
argue ship either, just to tell you where I'm coming from.  I 
recognize that not everyone thinks this way, and that JKR could 
change any of the above at any time. 

> I'm not arguing my ship here.  Please help me understand.  And 
don't fear a trap!  Cassie's offline until at least Friday, Penny's 
not posting very  much, and the other H/Hers are quiet, gentle 
souls.  So here I stand, all  alone...  :::Ebony starts humming and 
singing:::

Oh, stop it.   <BG>  

> Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated, 
paired-off  future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't 
arguing.  I got  some silly responses that you'd have to check the 
chat transcripts for, but  the top three answers were:  1)  Humdrum 
everyday things... what do all  couples talk about?  2)  His work--
her work.  3)  Talk?  They'd be too busy  shagging.  ;o)  (Of course, 
all the H/H and no-shippers in the room ran away 
screaming at that point.)

I think I might have run screaming too :*). The answer depends on 
what kind of people they turn out to be.  What would Harry and 
Hermione talk about?  Who knows? My good friends very much have a R/H 
type of relationship, and they constantly challenge each other 
intellectually. They bicker, but not maliciously. They make me think 
of what canon Ron and Hermione could turn out to be, but of course, 
this is just my POV. It all depends. 

> I really want to make an honest attempt to understand the other 
PoV, but my brain is *refusing* to think along those lines. I need 
some help, please.  As I'm on leave until next Monday, that means you 
guys have one week to get me to jump ship.  Who knows?  Perhaps I'll 
be traveling on the Good Ship R/H  by March... don't look at me like 
that!  Stranger things have happened!

Well, even if you don't want to sail with us, come over and have
tea sometime. I make fabulous chocolate chip cookies.  Now, please 
get back to your story and put that leave to good use - I'm
anxiously awaiting the next chapter!

Best Regards,
B.





From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 18:51:27 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:51:27 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <00a101c094ed$66661520$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <969bbf+m0pg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12110

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Zaboklicka" 
<monika.zaboklicka at c...> wrote:
<snip>
> Don't kill me before I have a chance to explain!
> To be a good teacher, you don't need to like your job (though it 
helps a
> lot), you don't have to be nice, kind, pedagogical or sympathetic. 
Those
> qualities are necessary if you want to be more that a teacher - a 
tutor. If
> you want to be a teacher, it's important how much your students 
learn and
> how well they understand your subject.

I would think that one would have to be pedagogical.... I guess Snape 
is generally effective, though, except with some students like 
Neville. I would also think that although Snape does succeed to some 
extent because of his unconventional teaching methods, he is probably 
also hampered by them. I think Harry and Ron, at least, would try 
harder in class were they not persecuted. 


<snip>
> 
> Snape might be a worse teacher than Lupin or McGonagall, but he's 
*far*
> better than Trelawney or - sorry to say that - Hagrid.

Yes, at least Snape actually teaches them important stuff, unlike 
Trelawney. Plus he has a stage presence, like McGonagall. Also, at 
least he doesn't make them fall asleep, like Binns. Hagrid, I think 
could be really good if he had better critters and improved his class 
discipline skills and occasionally took off points. 


> 
> And besides, Dumbledore doesn't seem to mind that members of his 
staff are
> rude to students or even to other teachers. He doesn't mind that 
Filtch
> bullies students, he doesn't react when McGonagall mocks Trelawney 
*in
> public* (Christ, I could never understand this!).

I thought she was fairly subtle about the mocking. That would be 
interesting if the feud between the two teachers was referred to 
later. Even more interesting episodes in staff meetings? 

> 
> As for Snape's behaviour in class, my pet theory is that Snape 
*likes* being
> mean to students. 

Oh, I can definitely see that. 

<snip>

Charmian
(looking forward to Neil's summary, which we could later combine with 
this thread)




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Mon Feb 12 19:02:32 2001
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:02:32 -0000
Subject: HP in Venice
References: <981980383.496.27918.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002901c09526$5bd119a0$175d893e@co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12111

I have come to the conclusion Harry POtter is following me everywhere! Last
week I went to Venice/ was dreadfully ill <g> and I open teh curtains of the
hotel room on the first morning and found myself staring at a huge poster
advertising HP & the Goblet of Fire in Italian in the window of the bookshop
opposite.
Heather
"...Words strain,
crack and sometimes break, under the burden,
under the tension, slip, slide, perish,
decay with imprecision, will not stay in place,
will not stay still.
Eliot, 1944.
----- Original Message -----
From: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 12:19 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 565



Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. WW2 parallels with HP
           From: "Dai Evans" <dwe199 at soton.ac.uk>
      2. Re: Another WW2 parallel
           From: "Dai Evans" <dwe199 at soton.ac.uk>
      3. Re: Lily's a muggle?
           From: "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com>
      4. Re: Lycanthropy - Azkaban - Weird Names - HP Tour
           From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
      5. A need for Filch?
           From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
      6. Re: Digest Number 564
           From: M <queenmarcie at yahoo.com>
      7. Weird names - Azkaban - Eyesight
           From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
      8. Re: Digest Number 564 astrology continued
           From: queenmarcie at yahoo.com
      9. Re: Digest Number 564 astrology continued
           From: queenmarcie at yahoo.com
     10. Food, names
           From: Angela Boyko <aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca>
     11. Re: Food, names
           From: aichambaye at yahoo.com
     12. When Dementors Journey (filk)
           From: "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>
     13. Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
           From: nlpnt at yahoo.com
     14. brand new fanfiction
           From: homanm at umich.edu
     15. Re: Weird names (back on topic)(and off again!)
           From: nlpnt at yahoo.com
     16. Re: Weird names (off topic again!)
           From: "Rita Winston" <catlady at wicca.net>
     17. eyeglasses, buck teeth, and other problems
           From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at bccs.org>
     18. Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"
           From: "Neil Ward" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
     19. Re: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"
           From: sashibuya at hotmail.com
     20. Re: OT: British English help!
           From: "Doreen Rich" <doreen_iowa at yahoo.com>
     21. Re: Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
           From: "ender_w" <ender_w at msn.com>
     22. Re: Re: Snape as teacher
           From: "Monika Zaboklicka" <monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:56:17 -0000
   From: "Dai Evans" <dwe199 at soton.ac.uk>
Subject: WW2 parallels with HP

I just watched a documentary about Hitler and co. during WW2 and
apparantly, something I've never heard of before, members of the SS
had an SS symbol burned into their arms. Some familiarity with a
certain dark mark seems apparant. Also, and I'm kicking myself for
not spotting this before, Salazar was the name of the fascist
dictator of Portugal during the same period.

Something new to think on.

Dai



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:59:14 -0000
   From: "Dai Evans" <dwe199 at soton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Another WW2 parallel

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> Just seems so
> ironic that Vold (and S. Slyth.) are so against mixed-blood, etc.,
> and this is exactly what Vold is.  I'm really curious about his
> mother (as well as James' and Lily's parents)...

I have a feeling that one of Hitlers parents or grandparents were
Jewish. I can't remember where I heard this, but if it's true it does
add another brick to the WW2 parallel wall.



Dai, again.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:24:40 -0000
   From: "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com>
Subject: Re: Lily's a muggle?

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Annette Harada" <annetteh11 at h...> wrote:
> > > Has anyone discussed the conflict of Lilly Potter being a witch
or a muggle.  The first three books give the definate impression that
> > she was a witch from an early age, even Aunt Marge made a
reference to this fact prior to Harry blowing her up.  But at the end
of book 4, when Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's head stone, Voldemort
said how alike he and Harry were; Both born with muggle mothers....>
> Ok, I'll grant you that one about Voldemort, but what about Lilly
Potter?  Voldemort did say she was a muggle....
>
> Thanks for your response <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hi Annette.  I think all that bit about Lily is that she's muggle-
born, rather than plain, flat-out muggle.  She's a witch from a
muggle family, like Hermione.  But because Lily was a witch and James
was a wizard, then Harry is full-blood, even though it's only one
generation back on his mom's side.  Apparently* both Lily and
Hermione are magical people from completely non-magical ancestries.
(I had a different theory about Lily, but things JKR has said have
pretty much killed that...;o])  So, yeah, I think that's it.  Did
that help at all?... <g>

Kelley



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:40:07 -0600
   From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
Subject: Re: Lycanthropy - Azkaban - Weird Names - HP Tour

Catlady wrote:

> John Walton mentioned
> > Lavender as a hippie type name.
>
> To me, Lavender is definitely more of an old-lady type name than a
> hippie type name.

Well, to me her name had a nursery-rhyme echo--you know, "Lavender Blue,
Lavender Green"? She's Lavender Brown. Perhaps one of Jo's daughter's
crayons rolled to her feet just as she was naming this character....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:43:18 -0600
   From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
Subject: A need for Filch?

I saw this one the other Yahoo HPforGrownups group, the one I get the
odd email from. For once, it was an interesting question instead of the
usual, Hi, I love HP, HP rules, etc. (I get the impression lots of them
are very young).

Question being--why does Filch have to clean up all the messes--like the
mud that gets tracked in? Why don't the house elves do that? Why do they
need Filch at all?

Any thoughts? Was this discussed in old, pre-voluble-Amanda days?

--Amanda



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:46:43 -0800 (PST)
   From: M <queenmarcie at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 564

Do you mean that 6/24/80 is some how hinted as Draco's
birthday? If it is then Draco is a Cancer (I can't
believe it) usually described as motherly figures ^_^;

If this is the case, the following is an analysis.

With Cancer's ruler Moon in Scorpio is someone who
faces unusual situations in their lives.

Ruler Moon(in 5th House) is in 120 degrees angle range
with the Sun(in Cancer 1st House), indicating someone
with a lot of energy and usually successful when comes
to romance and sex.

Moon in 150 degrees range with Venus(in Gemini 12th
House) is one with hidden sexual secrets, but does not
affect life much.

Moon in 120 degrees range with Mercury(in Cancer 1st
House), a very smart person also informative.

Moon in 60 degrees range with Mars(in Virgo 3rd
House), the person's interest lies in new thing,
sometime adventures.

Please correct me if I got any of this wrong, I just
took up astrology not long ago. :)


>
>    Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:09:27 -0800 (PST)
>    From: A B <old_wych at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 561
>
>
> --- Ellimist15 at aol.com wrote:
> > Rita said:
> >
> > << Mo/Dy/Yr  Sun    Moon   Merc    Venu       Mars
>
> >   Jupi     Satu
> > Uran      Nept   Plut
> >  6/24/80  3Cn06 17Sc00 24Cn31 19Ge05.21Vi17  5Vi02
> > 21Vi06
> > 22Sc01.20Sg58.18Li58.
> >
> > (oops, it lost the columns when i copied and
> pasted)
> > it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me
> as
> > Gemini/Cancer
> > cusp)
> >
> > Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!
> > Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
> > Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed
> to
> > indicate
> > retrograde)
> > Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo >>
> >
> > Can you please elaborate on what this signifies? I
> > must have fallen asleep in Professor Sinistra's
> > astonomy lesson.
> >
> > Ellie
> >
> That and Professor Trelawney's lessons. You're not
> alone. I have no idea what all this means, but I'm
> sure it's significant into Draco's character
> somehow.
> I know enough about astrology to have figured out
> Harry's a Leo and that's it! (And I suppose
> Hermione's
> a Virgo as well.) I thought the June 24 date might
> have some significance in some calendar system, but
> I
> had no idea what that could be.
>
> Anne
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:00:25 -0000
   From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Weird names - Azkaban - Eyesight

Neil wrote:

>Neil is a contraction of Nigel... hmmmm, should I take offence at
>your j/k remark?

No offense meant, Nigel/Neil/Ford!  I *like* the name Nigel.  I just
always used to ponder the fact that the credits on British TV shows
were loaded with Nigels and Ians.  Ian has caught on stateside, but I
have never, ever met a Nigel in the USA.  So it remains an oddity.  A
nice oddity!  Very nice!  Please don't run me over!

Re:  Ginny=Virginia, I'm pretty sure there's canon evidence that her
name IS Virginia.  In my bookless state, I can only encourage and
suggest...encourage and suggest...

Caius Marcius wrote:

>Azkaban

>Dedicated to the Amazin' Amy Z

Aw, shucks--an infomercial just for me?  Thanks--and, as always, ROFL!

Heather M wrote:

>James wore glasses because Lily, muggle-born and raised, thought they
>were dead sexy on him.

Which they were, natch!

Just came up with another eyesight-impaired wizard:  Mr. W.  That
one's easy; he wears glasses because he thinks they make him more
Muggleish.

Amy Z
who would prefer to have a more unusual name...maybe I should start
telling people it's short for Amontillado? (hey, I wrote that before
reading Catlady's Amiabilia suggestion!  You know what they say about
great minds...)

-------------------------------------------------
  "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye
Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly.
  "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he,"
said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room.
"Birds of a feather."
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:22:37 -0000
   From: queenmarcie at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Digest Number 564 astrology continued

Moon in 120 degrees range with Jupiter(in Virgo 3rd House). The person
is likely to success in his career. Negative side would be too
luxurious, arrogant, and a big ego(in other words, a rich brat).

Moon in 120 degrees range with Saturn(in Virgo 3rd House), is some how
a responsible person and follows his plans. But sometimes takes on too
much responsibilities.

Moon in 0 degree range with Uranus(in Scorpio 5th House). A dangerous
and eccentric person with a brilliant mind to make changes.

Moon in 30 degrees range with Neptune(in Sagittarius 6th House), he is
full of ideas at work. But in this position, it almost doesn't his
life at all.

Moon in 90 degrees range with Pluto(in Libra 4th House). Will be
violent in family, or had a violent family to grew up in.

An additional note:
Mercury in 1st House is someone who is comfortable with lying.
And again if someone finds this to be incorrect please tell me.



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., M <queenmarcie at y...> wrote:
> Do you mean that 6/24/80 is some how hinted as Draco's
> birthday? If it is then Draco is a Cancer (I can't
> believe it) usually described as motherly figures ^_^;
>
> If this is the case, the following is an analysis.
>
> With Cancer's ruler Moon in Scorpio is someone who
> faces unusual situations in their lives.
>
> Ruler Moon(in Scorpio 5th House) is in 120 degrees angle range
> with the Sun(in Cancer 1st House), indicating someone
> with a lot of energy and usually successful when comes
> to romance and sex.
>
> Moon in 150 degrees range with Venus(in Gemini 12th
> House) is one with hidden sexual secrets, but does not
> affect life much.
>
> Moon in 120 degrees range with Mercury(in Cancer 1st
> House), a very smart person also informative.
>
> Moon in 60 degrees range with Mars(in Virgo 3rd
> House), the person's interest lies in new thing,
> sometime adventures.
>
> Please correct me if I got any of this wrong, I just
> took up astrology not long ago. :)
>
>
> >
> >    Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:09:27 -0800 (PST)
> >    From: A B <old_wych at y...>
> > Subject: Re: Digest Number 561
> >
> >
> > --- Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> > > Rita said:
> > >
> > > << Mo/Dy/Yr  Sun    Moon   Merc    Venu       Mars
> >
> > >   Jupi     Satu
> > > Uran      Nept   Plut
> > >  6/24/80  3Cn06 17Sc00 24Cn31 19Ge05.21Vi17  5Vi02
> > > 21Vi06
> > > 22Sc01.20Sg58.18Li58.
> > >
> > > (oops, it lost the columns when i copied and
> > pasted)
> > > it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me
> > as
> > > Gemini/Cancer
> > > cusp)
> > >
> > > Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!
> > > Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
> > > Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed
> > to
> > > indicate
> > > retrograde)
> > > Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo >>
> > >
> > > Can you please elaborate on what this signifies? I
> > > must have fallen asleep in Professor Sinistra's
> > > astonomy lesson.
> > >
> > > Ellie
> > >
> > That and Professor Trelawney's lessons. You're not
> > alone. I have no idea what all this means, but I'm
> > sure it's significant into Draco's character
> > somehow.
> > I know enough about astrology to have figured out
> > Harry's a Leo and that's it! (And I suppose
> > Hermione's
> > a Virgo as well.) I thought the June 24 date might
> > have some significance in some calendar system, but
> > I
> > had no idea what that could be.
> >
> > Anne
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:38:26 -0000
   From: queenmarcie at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Digest Number 564 astrology continued

It's me agian ^_^
Just want to add something. To my observation Draco(if this is Draco)
is born on 6/24/1980's early evening, around 9:00pm.

btw. M and queenmarcie at yahoo.com are both the same person, me.



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., queenmarcie at y... wrote:
> Moon in 120 degrees range with Jupiter(in Virgo 3rd House). The
person
> is likely to success in his career. Negative side would be too
> luxurious, arrogant, and a big ego(in other words, a rich brat).
>
> Moon in 120 degrees range with Saturn(in Virgo 3rd House), is some
how
> a responsible person and follows his plans. But sometimes takes on
too
> much responsibilities.
>
> Moon in 0 degree range with Uranus(in Scorpio 5th House). A
dangerous
> and eccentric person with a brilliant mind to make changes.
>
> Moon in 30 degrees range with Neptune(in Sagittarius 6th House), he
is
> full of ideas at work. But in this position, it almost doesn't his
> life at all.
>
> Moon in 90 degrees range with Pluto(in Libra 4th House). Will be
> violent in family, or had a violent family to grew up in.
>
> An additional note:
> Mercury in 1st House is someone who is comfortable with lying.
> And again if someone finds this to be incorrect please tell me.
>
>
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., M <queenmarcie at y...> wrote:
> > Do you mean that 6/24/80 is some how hinted as Draco's
> > birthday? If it is then Draco is a Cancer (I can't
> > believe it) usually described as motherly figures ^_^;
> >
> > If this is the case, the following is an analysis.
> >
> > With Cancer's ruler Moon in Scorpio is someone who
> > faces unusual situations in their lives.
> >
> > Ruler Moon(in Scorpio 5th House) is in 120 degrees angle range
> > with the Sun(in Cancer 1st House), indicating someone
> > with a lot of energy and usually successful when comes
> > to romance and sex.
> >
> > Moon in 150 degrees range with Venus(in Gemini 12th
> > House) is one with hidden sexual secrets, but does not
> > affect life much.
> >
> > Moon in 120 degrees range with Mercury(in Cancer 1st
> > House), a very smart person also informative.
> >
> > Moon in 60 degrees range with Mars(in Virgo 3rd
> > House), the person's interest lies in new thing,
> > sometime adventures.
> >
> > Please correct me if I got any of this wrong, I just
> > took up astrology not long ago. :)
> >
> >
> > >
> > >    Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:09:27 -0800 (PST)
> > >    From: A B <old_wych at y...>
> > > Subject: Re: Digest Number 561
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> > > > Rita said:
> > > >
> > > > << Mo/Dy/Yr  Sun    Moon   Merc    Venu       Mars
> > >
> > > >   Jupi     Satu
> > > > Uran      Nept   Plut
> > > >  6/24/80  3Cn06 17Sc00 24Cn31 19Ge05.21Vi17  5Vi02
> > > > 21Vi06
> > > > 22Sc01.20Sg58.18Li58.
> > > >
> > > > (oops, it lost the columns when i copied and
> > > pasted)
> > > > it says, Sun at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me
> > > as
> > > > Gemini/Cancer
> > > > cusp)
> > > >
> > > > Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!!
> > > > Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer
> > > > Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed
> > > to
> > > > indicate
> > > > retrograde)
> > > > Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo >>
> > > >
> > > > Can you please elaborate on what this signifies? I
> > > > must have fallen asleep in Professor Sinistra's
> > > > astonomy lesson.
> > > >
> > > > Ellie
> > > >
> > > That and Professor Trelawney's lessons. You're not
> > > alone. I have no idea what all this means, but I'm
> > > sure it's significant into Draco's character
> > > somehow.
> > > I know enough about astrology to have figured out
> > > Harry's a Leo and that's it! (And I suppose
> > > Hermione's
> > > a Virgo as well.) I thought the June 24 date might
> > > have some significance in some calendar system, but
> > > I
> > > had no idea what that could be.
> > >
> > > Anne
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> > a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



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Message: 10
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:19:22 -0400
   From: Angela Boyko <aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Food, names

About wizard food:

I'm beginning another reread of CoS, and when Harry visits the Burrow
for the first time, he notices the Weasleys have an abundant home
garden. And I think all those chickens aren't pets.

Considering how poorly wizards manage Muggle money, I'm thinking that
the wizard community produces their own food. Pumpkins are really cheap.

Veering off-topic about names:

Catlady wrote:

>I'm the heretic: I still think most of them AREN'T nicknamed.  Some
>people formed a club called The Order of the Unbroken Name for people
>who are demanding about being called by their 'real' names instead of
>nicknames. One of the founders was a James who refused to acknowledge
>anyone who called him Jim.

Where do I sign up? Only my beloved aunts are permitted to call me
Angie.

Angela
--
Behold Angela the Brave! ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh? AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
 "Life beats down and crushes the soul
   and art reminds you that you have one" - Stella Norman


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Message: 11
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:37:15 -0000
   From: aichambaye at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Food, names


Angela writes:
> About wizard food:
>
> I'm beginning another reread of CoS, and when Harry visits the
Burrow
> for the first time, he notices the Weasleys have an abundant home
> garden. And I think all those chickens aren't pets.
>
> Considering how poorly wizards manage Muggle money, I'm thinking
that
> the wizard community produces their own food. Pumpkins are really
cheap.
>

I rather agree. Hagrid manages the Hogwarts gardens. At the beginning
of COS, he discovers Harry in Knockturn Alley. He's there to buy
Flesh-Eating Slug Repellent, because they are into the school
cabbages. (Cabbages are also cheap.)

Heather M.



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Message: 12
   Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:13:38 -0500
   From: "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: When Dementors Journey (filk)

When Dementors Journey (from PoA, Chap. 5)

(To the tune of Sentimental Journey)

(THE SCENE: A cabin of the Hogwarts Express, en route to Hogwarts.
Passengers include HARRY, RON  and PROF. LUPIN. The train suddenly screeches
to halt, and is plunged in darkness. LUPIN magically creates a flame in his
hand for illumination. Enter a Dementor, searching for Sirius Black)

RON
Did you ever see Dementors journey?
They're not too friendly, so I've been told

(HARRY passes out.)

Hey, please, someone - quickly get a gurney
Harry Potter has been knocked out cold

(LUPIN moves to assist him)

HARRY (reviving)
As it entered I felt my spirit sicken
Its dark hood loomin' above me so huge
It looked just like that ghost from out of Dickens
That went time-turnin' with old Mr. Scrooge

LUPIN (giving a slab of chocolate to HARRY)
Choc'late! Please make sure that you consume some choc'late!
As for you, Dementor, hey, now knock it
Off  because you are way off-track
Here, we don't have Black.

(Exit Dementor)

ALL
On a train Dementors should not journey
They're all filled with slime and with pus
Here's a lesson that we ought to learn, we
Should only let them ride at the back of the bus.

 - CMC



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Message: 13
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 03:28:13 -0000
   From: nlpnt at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
>
> Are you suggesting that JKR is a Muggle?!  Perish the thought!
>
> Okay, let's say your basic eye problems (near- and far-sightedness,
> etc.) are curable by magic.  So:
>
> Why does Harry wear glasses?  Because no one's told him they can
> clear up his myopia for him with a flick of a wand.
>
But Hermione DID show him a charm that would keep rainwater off his
glasses; wouldn't she have just told him to go to Madam Pomfrey after
the game to get his eyes fixed? What about Arthur Weasley, when Harry
broke his glasses in Knockturn Alley?

As for PWD students, I'm sure that the first thing they'd be taught
are the relevant spells; possibly a variant of the Sonorus Charm for
someone who's non-verbal, at the very least an Accessibility Spell if
not a reverse of the Leg-Locker Curse for someone unable to walk, etc.



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Message: 14
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 03:33:53 -0000
   From: homanm at umich.edu
Subject: brand new fanfiction

Hi Everyone.
I'm sending this message to several HP mailing lists, so I'm sorry
for any doubles people get.  I just wanted to announce that my little
brother has just posted the first two chapters of his very first HP
fan fiction on ff.net, and he would love to have some people review
it.  It's pretty funny, and I promise your time won't be wasted.  His
screen name is Gokuh4060 and the title of his story is "The
Importance of Being Ron."  His author page is here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/?action=Directory-
AuthorProfile&UserID=42157
A million thanks to everyone who writes him a review.  He wants to be
a professional writer someday, but he lacks confidence in his ability
to be funny.  Please help him out!
Love,
Meg



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Message: 15
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 03:41:37 -0000
   From: nlpnt at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Weird names (back on topic)(and off again!)

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> These were the lengthened names we came up with.
>
> Ron--Ronald
> Ginny--Virginia, Ginger, or something else with a "Gin" root (my
handy-dandy
> baby name book states that Ginny is a nickname for those two)
>
I always thought "Ginny" was short for "Virginia"; "Ginger" is a nice
possibility, however, particularly with a "Fred" in the family! As
for "Ron" this is one more reason it's a Good Thing JKR is British.
An American family having a son named "Ronald", and born in 1980/81
says more about the parents' politics than anything else!
>
> One of my major pet peeves in fanfiction is that I *hate* when
writers
> misspell canon names.  I will NOT read fanfics by or
starring "Hermoine".

I know a woman named "Hermoine"! Her parents wanted to name
her "Hermione" (decades before HP), but the DOCTOR misspelled it on
the birth certificate. I also have a cousin named "Bennjamin" because
his mother was left to fill the certificate out herself, still on
painkillers from the delivery, and put the first "n" down twice when
she was distracted.
 BTW, I've also met an elderly gentleman named Ronald Macdonald. He
said that he's been told many times that he should do commercials for
Burger King.



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Message: 16
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 04:00:55 -0000
   From: "Rita Winston" <catlady at wicca.net>
Subject: Re: Weird names (off topic again!)

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:

> As for "Ron" this is one more reason it's a Good Thing JKR is
> British. An American family having a son named "Ronald", and born
> in 1980/81 says more about the parents' politics than anything
> else!

There was a time when it was quite common for Americans to name
their sons after the President then in office, regardless whether
they agreed with his politics. I was reminded of this obsolete custom
when a friend told me about his mother's doctors. "There's old Dr.
Magoo, Dr. Herbert, he's the father, and there's young Dr. Magoo, Dr.
Glenn, he's the son, and I get the impression there's another Dr.
Magoo, Dr. Harry, but I've never seen him."

"He must be the Holy Ghost," I replied, and went on to speculate that
we could determine the ages of the Drs. Magoo from their given names,
with Dr. Herbert born in 1928-32, when Herbert Hoover was President,
Dr. Harry in 1945-52 when Harry Truman was President, and Dr. Glenn
whatever year it was that John Glenn was the first human to orbit the
earth.



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Message: 17
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:25:34 -0000
   From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at bccs.org>
Subject: eyeglasses, buck teeth, and other problems


> >
> > Okay, let's say your basic eye problems (near- and far-
sightedness,
> > etc.) are curable by magic.  So:
> >
> > Why does Harry wear glasses?  Because no one's told him they can
> > clear up his myopia for him with a flick of a wand.

I wonder--and this is just off the top of my head--if it has to do
with the whole thing of why the Wizarding World wants to keep itself
secret from Muggles...they don't approve of magic being used to just
make mundane problems go away and they know that that's what Muggles
would want to use magic for. Maybe one of the basic philosophies of
the Wizarding World is that you don't just zap your wand here there
and everywhere trying to make yourself perfect in every way, that
doing so wouldn't be good for your character and everyone knows it.
You accept who you are, you work within the minor limitations we all
have in one area or another, because that's part of being a whole
person.

Does that make any sense at all?

Then does the fact fit in that it took an unusual and slightly
underhanded situation for Hermione to "fix" her teeth? She wouldn't
have been able to just ask Pomfrey to change her teeth, but since she
was in that unexpectedly perfect situation, she went for it. I mean,
that's a clear example of a spell being available and Hermione not
using it. I know, I know, her parents wanted her to have braces (for
the same character reasons, probably) but she could have snuck around
that, certainly. Following that logic, if Harry would accidentlly
damage his eyes, he might be able to get Pomfrey unintentionally to
get rid of his near or far sightedness. Maybe he'd better go out and
wrestle with the Whomping Willow and see what happens. It almost
worked for Davey Gudgeon!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon



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Message: 18
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:58:28 -0000
   From: "Neil Ward" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"

Okay, here is this week's GoF discussion summary: Chapter 30 - "The
 Pensieve".

A character summary of Severus Snape will follow later today.. as if you
needed an excuse to discuss Snape...

Neil/FFA
_________________________

IN DUMBLEDORE'S OFFICE

Harry is left in Dumbledore's office as Moody, Fudge and Dumbledore search
the grounds for Crouch Snr.  Nosing around, he spots the Pensieve inside a
cupboard, which is rather conveniently left open.  As he stares into the
"light made liquid" in this brain-basin, he is surprised to see a dimly lit
room with an empty chair in the centre, surrounded an audience of witches
and wizards, and, before you can say "Aberforth's Goat!" he has fallen into
the image and is sitting next to a marginally younger Albus Dumbledore.

TRIAL SCENE ONE

Realising that he is in a memory, Harry wonders about the location of the
room: "It surely wasn't Hogwarts."  He decides that it is probably a
dungeon.  Igor Karkaroff is escorted in by a couple of Dementors and
proceeds to name supporters of the Dark Lord in the hope of buying his
freedom:

**Antonin Dolohov (tortured countless Muggles, already in custody);
**Evan Rosier (dead, put up a fight);
**Travers (helped murder the Mckinnons, already in custody);
**Mulciber (specialised in the Imperius Curse, already in custody);
**Augustus Rookwood (a spy planted in the MoM).

Then, in desperation, as he is about to be returned to Azkaban, he screams
out Snape's name.  Dumbledore leaps to Snape's defence and say that,
although Snape had been a Death Eater, he had returned to "our side" and
"turned spy for us".

TRIAL SCENE TWO

The scene fades and a new one replaces it, in which a younger, fit Ludo
Bagman is up before the Council of Magical Law.  Bagman had been caught
passing information to Rookwood, but claims he had no idea that Rookwood was
a spy; he had been tempted by the promise of a post-Quidditch job at the
MoM.  The crowd becomes outraged at the idea that this popular Quidditch
star could end up in Azakaban, so, when the jury is asked to vote on the
matter, none of them raises a hand.  Crouch is incensed.  "The day Ludo
Bagman joins us will be a very sad day for the Ministry." he seethes.

TRIAL SCENE THREE

The scene fades and returns again.  It's more recent still, and this time
the place is silent.  Four people are brought in:

**a "thickset man";
**a "thinner and more nervous-looking man";
**a woman "with thick, shining dark hair, and heavily hooded eyes" who
treats her chair like "a throne"
   (and who later screams, "We alone were faithful [to Voldemort]!");
**a petrified boy. "in his late teens" with "straw-coloured hair" (Crouch
Jnr)

Crouch Snr accuses the four prisoners of having subjected the Longbottoms to
the Crutiatus Curse.  Frank Longbottom had been an auror and supposedly knew
the whereabouts of Voldemort.  The jury vote to send them all to Azkaban,
for life.  As Crouch Jnr is dragged out of the courtroom, begging his father
to intervene, Crouch Snr renounces him.

BACK IN THE OFFICE

Real-time Dumbledore returns and pulls Harry back into the office.  He
explains the workings of the Pensieve and demonstrates it by removing a
thought strand from his head with his wand (ewwww!).  Among other things, it
reveals a memory of Professor Snape saying "it's coming back" .and
"Karkaroff's too.stronger and clearer than ever".

Harry tells Dumbledore about the dream he had in his Divination lesson about
Voldemort, Wormtail and "the snake" (Nagini) and that he had woken up when
his scar hurt.  Dumbledore has a theory that the scar hurts when Voldemort
is near Harry or "feeling a particularly strong surge of hatred," because
they are connected by the curse that failed.

Dumbledore begins pacing up and down, occasionally transferring thoughts to
the Pensieve, and becoming so distracted that Harry is forced to keep
calling his attention back to their conversation.  Dumbledore reveals that,
like Harry, he has been in correspondence with Sirius Black.  They discuss
the Longbottoms, and Harry realises that in four years he never bothered to
find out why Neville lives with his grandmother.   Finally, Harry asks
Dumbledore why he thinks Snape no longer supports Voldemort, and Dumbledore
says, with a note of finality, "That is a matter between Professor Snape and
myself".

As Harry leaves the office, he sees Dumbledore looking "older than ever".

QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

(1) Dumbledore seems to age whenever he uses the Pensieve, is this a
trade-off for using it?
(2) "Curiosity is not a sin.but we should exercise caution with our
curiosity," says message-of-the-day-Dumbledore.  Would Harry find something
he didn't want to know if he dug too deeply?
(3) Will Harry befriend Neville and will Neville seek revenge for the attack
on his parents?
(4) Bagman is described as "muscly".  This is not a word.  Could this be
evidence that JKR did indeed write the infamous wand order revision, using
that non-word "untidy-haired"?
(5) Could Dumbledore's reference to "our side" imply some sort of organised
group or is it a reference to non-V supporters in general?
(6) Crouch says to Karkaroff: "you have been brought from Azkaban to give
evidence to the Ministry of Magic." So, was this dungeon at the MoM?
(7) Who were the other people on trial with Crouch Jnr?  The Lestranges?
Who else?



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Message: 19
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:57:55 -0000
   From: sashibuya at hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Okay, here is this week's GoF discussion summary: Chapter 30 - "The
>  Pensieve".
>
> A character summary of Severus Snape will follow later today.. as
if you
> needed an excuse to discuss Snape...
>

Nah, the ever-fascinating Severus? Heaven forbid we ever run out of
things to say about him.

<snip>
> QUESTIONS/COMMENTS
>
> (1) Dumbledore seems to age whenever he uses the Pensieve, is this a
> trade-off for using it?

Mmmm. It seems to me like it's just an effect of the depressing
memories that makes him age before Harry's eyes.

> (2) "Curiosity is not a sin.but we should exercise caution with our
> curiosity," says message-of-the-day-Dumbledore.  Would Harry find
something
> he didn't want to know if he dug too deeply?

I'm guessing this is related to how Dumbledore wouldn't Tell All to
Harry at the end of SS/PS. There must be some really shocking secret
in store, at least as my radar registers.


> (3) Will Harry befriend Neville and will Neville seek revenge for
the attack
> on his parents?

They already are on good terms, so why not? Using my crystal ball, I
see Neville becoming an even more important character. I think he'd
prefer to cure them somehow before seeking revenge, but that it would
be an interesting plot twist for him to confront his parents'
attackers.

<snip>
> (5) Could Dumbledore's reference to "our side" imply some sort of
organised
> group or is it a reference to non-V supporters in general?

I would suspect the latter, as supporting Voldemort was eminently not
a respectable position at the time, and everyone was assumed to be
against him.

<snip>
> (7) Who were the other people on trial with Crouch Jnr?  The
Lestranges?
> Who else?

>From Voldemort's comments, it seems very likely.

More questions:
Do you think we'll see the Pensieve again? We conventionally see from
Harry's viewpoint, and normally only extended narration by another
character would let us see into the past.
Was Crouch Jr. lying at the trial, during his outburst?
Did Rita Skeeter report all of the trials? Is all that Harry has seen
generally known?

Charmian





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Message: 20
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:23:49 -0000
   From: "Doreen Rich" <doreen_iowa at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: British English help!




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., andeinmn at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/11/01 2:10:47 AM Central Standard Time,
> doreen_iowa at y... writes:
>
> > Hi
> >
> >  I am new to this kind of group.. so I don't know if I am doing
this
> >  correctly. I see that you got your answer to the "revisions"
> >  question. If anyone has any other "British terms", feel free to
email
> >  me, as I do have a very kind British friend, who supplies me
with
> >  definitions for such terms as "plus fours", "treacle",
and "tripe".
> >
> >  I am in the middle of reading "The Goblet of Fire", having just
read
> >  the other three books in about six days. As soon as I finish
that, I
> >  will get busy on the British terms list to send to the lexicon
> >  website.
> >
> >  My email address is nera at r...
> >
> >  Doreen from Iowa
> >
>
> Hi Doreen and welcome from your neighbor to the north.  Hope you
have fun
> here and I am looking forward to seeing your list on the Lexicon.
>
> Andrea

Thank you, Andrea. I have found a great partner in my endeavor. I get
to do the easy part... supplying him with Strictly British words or
phrases that we "foreigners" do not use in our every day speech. He
and his friends are then going to be kind enough to supply the
Strictly British definitions of these words or phrases, not so much
as they might appear in a dictionary, (I have looked some up) but
rather how they are used in UK every day speech. A much more
interesting way of approaching it, I think. His name is Neil Ward and
you probably know him all ready.

When Neil offered his help, I could not put it off, but started
sending him stuff from SS. We decided to start at the beginning and
go from book to book, with a few exceptions.

Doreen aka Ms_Lagmuggle





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Message: 21
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:45:12 -0500
   From: "ender_w" <ender_w at msn.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: nlpnt at yahoo.com
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 10:28 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.


  As for PWD students, I'm sure that the first thing they'd be taught
  are the relevant spells; possibly a variant of the Sonorus Charm for
  someone who's non-verbal, at the very least an Accessibility Spell if
  not a reverse of the Leg-Locker Curse for someone unable to walk, etc.



  I have to disagree here.  I think this is oversimplifying.  The sonorous
charm works on the voice itself. Most children who are nonverbal due to
neurological disabilities have absolutely no problem with their voices, but
instead with the parts of their brain that control their ability to use
language.  Besides, I'd like to think that if a child has a disability that
can be fixed or changed by magic, it would be done in the early years by
trained medical wizards.

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 22
   Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:14:39 +0100
   From: "Monika Zaboklicka" <monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl>
Subject: Re: Re: Snape as teacher

Ahh, I love this subject!

All right - that's my theory:
I think that Dumbledore keeps Snape as a teacher not because Snape needs
protection, not because of favouritism but simply because Snape is a *good*
teacher.
Don't kill me before I have a chance to explain!
To be a good teacher, you don't need to like your job (though it helps a
lot), you don't have to be nice, kind, pedagogical or sympathetic. Those
qualities are necessary if you want to be more that a teacher - a tutor. If
you want to be a teacher, it's important how much your students learn and
how well they understand your subject.

A bit off-topic explanation: at high school, my father used to have a math
teacher who was *absolutely* horrible person. She used to yell at her
students, girls rutinely were taking tranquilizers before her lessons, she
was the most hated person at school and yet, more than 20 years later at a
reunion her former students insisted that she was the best teacher! It was
amazing, they were remembering how awful she was and marvelling what a good
teacher she was - all in the same sentence. Reason was very simple - she
*taught* her students math. She taught them so well they haven't even notice
it before they went to universities and *saw* that they are much better at
math than other people. And one more thing - I would like to see somebody
trying to upset my dad by *yelling* at him.

Back on topic, Snape seems to be able to knock some knowledge into his
students' heads. Hermione, Harry and Ron prepare Polyjuice Potion in their
second year. The Weasley twins and Lee Jordan use Ageing potion to get
through Age Line in GoF and I assume they made it themselves.

Snape might be a worse teacher than Lupin or McGonagall, but he's *far*
better than Trelawney or - sorry to say that - Hagrid.

And besides, Dumbledore doesn't seem to mind that members of his staff are
rude to students or even to other teachers. He doesn't mind that Filtch
bullies students, he doesn't react when McGonagall mocks Trelawney *in
public* (Christ, I could never understand this!).

As for Snape's behaviour in class, my pet theory is that Snape *likes* being
mean to students. So, in order to amuse himself (and other Slytherins) he is
awfull to following parties beacause:
a) Neville - he's Gryffindor, poor at potions, and an easy prey - some
people attack easy preys instictively, without even thinking of it, and for
me Snape is such a person. That's sort of :"Don't be so *weak*, you fool, or
I'll kill you for that!". With such people around, delicate persons either
harden up or disintegrate.
b) Harry and Ron - they are Gryffindors, not too bright at potions,
rule-brakers, they escape due punishment much too often, they talk back,
Harry dares to be James's son etc,
c) Hermione - she's a Gryffindor too, she speaks out of turn, dares to be
better at Potions than Slytherins and it's a challenge to upset her, because
she's got so much self control. Thanks Heaven one can ignore her, because
otherwise no Slytherin would have a chance to answer one's question and earn
points.

That's all I can think of bat the moment.

Monika Z.
(the Snape fan)



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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Feb 12 19:10:46 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:10:46 -0000
Subject: JKR's new words (was Chap 30 summary)
In-Reply-To: <968r3j+llf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <969cfm+d7cb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12112

CMC said:

"Writers create new words all the time, and I'm tempted to say that 
the better the writer, the more such coinages you will find, since 
good writers have greater creativity.  Just think of Shakespeare and 
Joyce.  And until Rowling came along, Dementor, Quidditch, time-
turners, floo powder, pensieve, etc. were not "real" words, either.

But they are now."

Caius, I couldn't agree more.  However, I think there is a difference 
between using the word "muscly" instead of "muscular" and creating a 
wonderful new vocabulary to describe things that don't, in reality, 
exist.  

My point related to the fact that some had argued that JKR would 
never have used the term "untidy-haired," as featured in the 
rewritten GoF wand scene.  I was suggesting that maybe she does use 
the occasional awkward-sounding word or phrase among all those gems 
she creates.

Maybe we should create a dictionary of 'Rowlingisms' on top of all 
our other 'let's not get bored before Book 5' projects?

Neil
flying_ford_anglia






From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Feb 12 19:31:02 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:31:02 -0600
Subject: SHIP:  RE: Questions for R/Hers...
References: <969a4g+fc46@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8839F6.4EB43650@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12113

Hi --

Ebony -- you know I can't ever resist jumping into a shipper
discussion!  No matter how much carpal tunnel might be troubling me ....
<g>

bbennett at joymail.com wrote:

> I think there's been some misinterpretation as to what HGTG means. I
> know I'm relatively new to HP4GU, but I've never thought HGTG was
> offered to support the idea that Ron deserves Hermione, but as a
> theory to explain why some people think Harry will end up with
> Hermione.

I think HGTG was originally put forth as a reason why R/H types dislike
the notion of H/H.  They argued that it wouldn't be "right" for the hero
to get the girl (too cliche).  I think what Ebony is asking is: Doesn't
HGTG work only if the hero wants the girl in the first place (:::winces
at "girl" terminology too:::)?

> Suggesting HGTG as a reason for the defense of H/H is just a theory,
> but it can be reasonably analyzed and debated.

Not sure if I understood the above correctly, but H/H types *never* use
HGTG as a *defense* to H/H.  What you see is R/H shippers arguing that
H/H can't happen because HGTG is too cliche.  At least, that's my take
on it.

Not speaking for everyone, but most H/H'ers are as offended/disturbed by
HGTG as the R/H types.  We don't believe Hermione is a prize to be won
(to quote Eb).  Her feelings count in the equation equally with the
feelings of Ron and Harry to the H/H proponent.  But, the H/H types are
equally disturbed by the R/H position that Ron deserves the girl because
he needs something that Harry doesn't have.

Rina wrote:

> I don't like HGTG because I don't think the hero wants the girl, and the
> girl doesn't want the hero, and for the love of all that is holy, why isn't
> here a better way of phrasing this?  Besides, all of this discussion
> isn't portraying Hermione in a very positive light. We're all pretty much
> disregarding who she likes in all this "Hero gets the girl, damn it!" and
> "Ron doesn't have anything, so give HIM the girl, damn it!" talk.
>
That's what I think too, Rina.  But, you don't see the H/H types arguing
either side.  We argue that Hermione's feelings are just as important as
Ron or Harry's feelings.  Where we disagree with the R/H types is that
we interpret Hermione as having feelings for Harry (hence, HGTG and
Sidekick gets the Girl as a consolation prize becomes doubly offensive
to most of us).  The H/H types are willing to say that there's room for
interpretation and disagreement.  Hermione's feelings are not clear at
all.  They are ambiguous enough at this point to leave either ship
plenty of room to maneuver.

> I personally can't wait until we see some more textual evidence as to who
> Hermione actually likes. I read what has happened so far as she likes Ron
> and is getting frusterated with his thick-headedness, but she hasn't come
> out and said anything in either direction.
>
No, she definitely has not been at all clear.

> B wrote: I'm not sure what criteria was set forth, and although I know
> FITD is "Farmer In the Dell" (you all are so good with the acronyms),
> I don't know what it means.

FITD: Ron likes Hermione; Hermione likes Harry; and Harry likes either
no one or someone outside the Trio.

Amy Z wrote:

> No--the thing that would be most intolerable to Ron would be if Harry
> *wasn't* particularly interested in Hermione but Hermione was
> interested in Harry, and H/H ended up together (again, whether short-
> or long-term, it doesn't really matter--two months, even two weeks,
> can be an eternity to a friendship).
>
Would it be equally galling in your mind if Hermione was interested in
Harry but H/H didn't end up together at all in canon?  It would in my
mind.  It might even be *worse* for Ron.  Think about this scenario: Ron
asks Hermione out or otherwise makes his feelings clear.  Hermione
gently says, "I'm sorry but I'm just not interested in you in that
way."  [2 scenarios from here: (A) She goes on to tell Ron directly that
she has feelings for Harry or (B) Ron learns from other source(s) that
Hermione has her heart set on Harry.]  Now, Harry lets Hermione down in
the same way that she let Ron down.  He could do this for any number of
reasons: (A) he truly *isn't* interested in her, (B) he thinks this is
the best thing to do to try & keep the Trio's friendship intact (or at
least his friendship with Ron); or (C) he's just so busy with fighting
Voldy that he can't remotely focus on romantic possibilities.  Despite
Harry's rejection, Hermione doesn't try & backtrack & date Ron (i.e.,
she meant what she said: I'm not interested in dating you, Ron).

So, in that case, Ron would have the double insult that Hermione
wouldn't agree to date him and Harry has rejected his love interest and
hurt her.  That could be alot worse in my mind.

> It is so galling when you are jealous of someone and he doesn't even *want* the things that you
> covet.
>
Exactly!  See above -- what if Harry not only didn't want something that
Ron coveted but also rejected the very thing Ron wanted.

> So I'm thinking that for Ron, what would be worse than Harry falling
> in love with Hermione, asking her out, and succeeding, would be Harry
> being indifferent to Hermione, but her asking him out and succeeding.
> That's what's so misery-inducing about HGTG for me.  And if Harry and
> Hermione did get together, this is how it would likely be, IMO,
> because IMO Harry has zero romantic interest in Hermione right now.
>
That's admittedly a possibility I really hadn't considered.  I really
believe heartily in FITD (and under that theory, Harry would likely
reject Hermione in canon).  It's certainly possible though that he might
decide to give it a whirl if she took the initiative.  But, I think
Harry knows Ron's feelings and would be uncomfortable going that route
unless he developed a strong interest in Hermione himself.  I see H/H as
a post-canon possibility ... something that builds on Hermione's
long-standing interest in him and that occurs when Harry has defeated
Voldy & moved on with his life.  They would both be more mature.

If R/H occurs in canon, I don't see it lasting.  But then, I see
absolutely no reason why James Carville & Mary Matalin have any kind of
marriage at all -- I'm completely unable to fathom *how* they could put
aside such deep disagreements & nurture their marriage when they're
"off-stage."  But, to each his own ...

Like Ebony -- I love your posts Amy!  Keep 'em coming!  You have great
insights -- I've been too busy to reply to some of the ones that I
particularly enjoyed but I have always enjoyed your thoughts.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Feb 12 20:00:41 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:00:41 -0800
Subject: Eyesight Theories
In-Reply-To: <965br3+rce3@eGroups.com>
References: <3A862B11.E66B661E@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212114331.02dc3e70@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12114

All the below are my own theories on why wizards
wear glasses instead of repairing their vision magically:

Percy:
The magical "operation" for repairing eyesight is prohibitively
expensive for the impoverished Weasleys.

Dumbledore:
He is opposed on principle to mucking around with human
physiology if it can be avoided... "Let nature run its course,
Harry."

McGonnegal:
Glasses are part of her campaign to remain totally unattractive
to the opposite sex.

Trelawney:
They add to her aura of mystery.  :)

Harry and James:
JKR has dropped a hint that there will be future revelations about
why Harry wears glasses, and has hinted that they are "The key to
his vulnerability."  So here's my theory: During one of their big disputes,
Salazaar Slytherin put a curse on Goderic Gryffindor that for a currently
unknown reason forced him and all his descendents to wear glasses.
And when Voldemort is finally toast, the curse will break and voila!
Harry won't need to wear glasses anymore!



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Feb 12 20:55:00 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:55:00 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filk suggestions
In-Reply-To: <961cg8+jtc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010209104026.02cf85e0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12115

At 06:22 PM 2/9/01 +0000, keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>There's a lot of filks around at the moment and I'd love to write
>one, but I doubt it'd be very good. So here instead are some
>suggestions for more talented songwriters...

Here's some more:

"Jokes For Sale"  (Love For Sale) -- Sung by Fred and George
     when they open their Joke Shop.

"Super-callous-mean-and-nasty-muggle-persecution":
(Supercallifragilisticexpialidocoious) -- The Death Eater's anthem.

Wizard version of "Those Were the Days" -- Sung by Lucius and
    Narcissa... Last stanza would probably be something like:
         "Didn't hide our Muggle-hate
           "All the house-elves pulled their weight
           "Gee, our Shooting Star flew great
           "Those Were the Days!"





                                                 -- Dave




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Mon Feb 12 21:52:48 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:52:48 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Owl Post (was:  Possible Error)
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDE4@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 12116



** Meredith wrote:
** 
** "We see several times (most specifically in GoF when Hedwig 
** is finding
** Sirius) that when sending owl post, the owls can find people 
** pretty much
** anywhere they are, right?  Why then in PoA did nobody ever 
** send an owl to 
** Sirius and just follow it on broomstick to find his whereabouts?
** 
** "I told him that there had to be some kind of charm that 
** allows someone not 
** to be found by owl post if they're in hiding, but he said 
** that wasn't a good 
** enough answer and so I now turn to you.  If anybody has an 
** answer, it has to 
** be you guys!"
** *******
** 
** While I can't speak for JKR, there are a couple fanon 
** solutions that I've 
** seen employed to ensure confidentiality of post:
** 
** 1)  Stealth owls.  These owls are invisible in flight... 
** bird and post only 
** appear to sender and recipient.

That would show how Sirius could possibly send an owl to Harry without being
seen, although the Firebolt came by regular owl(s), but there's no reason to
send a stealth owl _to_ him.

** 2)  Speed of enchanted owls.  Perhaps it is impossible to 
** follow an owl via 
** broomstick... they travel too fast, or in another dimension entirely.

This is a possibility, but people do see them coming and flying around in
the chapter below (in SS).
 
** Something else to take into account is found in SS Ch. 1.  
** Vernon and the 
** newscasters took note of the unusual number of owls 
** traveling in broad 
** daylight.  This always struck me as strange... in canon, 
** none of the wizards 
** or witches we've met have taken particular care to only send 
** post at night.  
** Mail usually arrives at Hogwarts in the morning, but while 
** at the Dursleys, 
** Harry receives mail at various times of the day (I think).  
** Or perhaps I've 
** missed something.  What do you think?
** 
** --Ebony

Yeah, I wonder that, too.  I mean, the day when the muggles see all of the
owls is a special occasion and people are sending more than normally, but it
would seem to me that if that is their main method of post (or really
only...) that there are enough wizards and witches the owls flying around on
a normal day would seem odd to me.  I'm sure they fly a lot at night (being
nocturnal creatures and all) but maybe they have to fly some during the day
because of distance or urgency of the message.  Something to think about...

Meredith



From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Feb 12 22:05:26 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:05:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
References: <965bt6+frsm@eGroups.com> <00a101c094ed$66661520$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <001901c09540$abcf29a0$24690f3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12117


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Monika Zaboklicka 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 7:14 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher

  >>A bit off-topic explanation: at high school, my father used to have a math
  >>teacher who was *absolutely* horrible person. She used to yell at her
  >>students, girls rutinely were taking tranquilizers before her lessons, she
  >>was the most hated person at school and yet, more than 20 years later at a
  >>reunion her former students insisted that she was the best teacher! 


  I can't speak about this particular teacher, because I don't know her and I don't know just how nasty she was, and i do agree with your point that a teacher's ability is more important that his or her personality, but, as a teacher myself, I firmly believe that there is NO excuse for bullying, nastiness, or any sort of abuse, no matter how talented the teacher is.  Working with kids with learning disabilities, I have seen, far too often, the terrible psychological damage that even the best teacher can cause by having a bad attitude.



  >>And besides, Dumbledore doesn't seem to mind that members of his staff are
  >>rude to students or even to other teachers. He doesn't mind that Filtch
  >>bullies students, he doesn't react when McGonagall mocks Trelawney *in
  >>public* (Christ, I could never understand this!).

  Call me a heretic (and I know the Snape lovers will), ...and before I say this, let me insist that Snape is one of my favorite characters...but I see Snape as a literary device more than a person to be psychoanalyzed.  Now, I firmly believe that there is more to Snape than we see and he will become instrumental in the coming war with Voldmort, but, as far as his personality in the classroom, I have trouble reading too much into it.  I think that he's nasty to Gryffindors simply because they're Gryffindors and he's a Slytherin.  I also think that JKR has made him the stereotypical mean teacher for the sake of making Harry's life more interesting, and not  just because Snape has some deep, dark secrets in his psyche...though I'm not saying he doesn't.  What am I talking about?  I'm not sure.  I guess an analogy might be some of Stephen King's religious characters.  King often puts corrupt, overbearing, angry and prideful religious characters into his story.  Why are they that way?  Is there some deep psychological reason behind it?  Something in their past?  Some dark motivation?  Sometimes yes and sometimes no.  Sometimes King creates those characters to be just what they are: stereotypical religious hypocrites.  An analogy closer to home comes from stories I've read (though I can't think of any off the top of my head) written by authors who went to Catholic school back in the time when the nuns still used corporal punishment.  Often, their stories will have a stereotypically nasty teacher reflecting that past experience (by the way, I have nothing against nuns or Catholic school.  I went to Catholic school for twwelve years and I remember the nuns tended to be nicer than the lay teachers).  I guess my point is that in almost every child's life, there is that dreaded, nasty teacher that the child thinks is out to get him.  JKR knows that (like most of us, she probably experienced it) and so, for Harry that dreaded teacher is Snape. 

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Feb 12 22:10:26 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:10:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Weird Names
References: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDD2@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <001a01c09540$c4b1b500$24690f3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12118


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Meredith Wilson 
  To: 'HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com' 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:12 AM
  Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] OT: Weird Names


  And I thought the twins my dad went to school with were bad - Syphillis
  (pronounced sih-FIL-us) and Gonorrhea (pronounced guh-NOHR-ee-uh)! 

  Meredith, who also knew of a set of twins named Orangejello and Lemonjello
  pronounced like the pair we read about before.  Hoo-boy... some people.


  Once again, I go off topic, but I had some serious difficulty last semester when I taught a pair of twins named Mark and Marcus.  Sheesh!  even if they hadn't been identical, I still would have gotten such similar names mixed up.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Feb 12 22:20:25 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:20:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
References: <00a601c0951b$f1195a00$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <002e01c09542$0e11c680$24690f3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12119


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rina Stewart 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 12:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eyesight, Hogwarts' special ed, etc.


  ender wrote:

  <<I have to disagree here.  I think this is oversimplifying.  The sonorous charm works on the voice itself. Most children who are nonverbal due to neurological disabilities have absolutely no problem with their voices, but instead with the parts of their brain that control their ability to use language.  Besides, I'd like to think that if a child has a disability that can be fixed or changed by magic, it would be done in the early years by  trained medical wizards.>>


  >I'd like to think that Hogwarts would have MEPs (I just love that idea, Ender <g>) and appropriate accomodations, rather >than a fix-all. After all, it has been brought up that they don't advocate cosmetic (teeth) fixing unless it's been >directly impacted by a spell, and they don't seem to fix eyesight just on a whim. Maybe things could be done so that a >nonverbal child could direct thoughts for spells?  

  >Rina

  Glad you liked the idea!  Actually, I'm writing a fanfic (who isn't!) and the other day, as i was sitting in a staff meeting at school called to discuss a kid with severe behavior disorders, I decided I had to include a Hogwarts "staffing" scene for the wayward character in my fic.  

  It would be interesting, though, to see how magic would express itself in, say, an autistic child, or a Down's Syndrome child.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Mon Feb 12 22:26:01 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:26:01 -0500
Subject: New subscriber and story advert
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0670@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12120

Greetings from Gwendolyn Grace!
 
I've been on HPfanfiction and HPslash for a while now, but I decided to take
the plunge and try out a couple more lists. We'll see if I can handle the
volume.
 
I also want to act on the recommendation of Jim Flanagan and advertise my
own HP story, His Majesty's Secret Service. It's a multi-chapter fic about a
highly unorthodox transfer student. Some of you are already reading this;
but I'm getting really positive feedback and I'm interested in getting to
know more adults who write and discuss HP in a mature fashion.
 
You can access this story at:
 
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/index.fic?action=story-read
<http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=163
925> &storyid=163925
 
I'm writing chapter 7 now (having some problems with the Malfoys--what else
is new?) and from the way they keep telling me about their backstory, I'll
have a sequel written shortly after this tale is complete. The rating is
PG13 for adult situations, it contains spoilers for every book, and there
may be slash or violence or other sensitive topics breached before we're
done. The only thing I can promise is that I will be as true to the spirit
of the original books--and original characters--as possible and still
accomplish this plotline.
 
That's all I have to say for now. I look forward to reading the discussions
on these lists.
 
Gwen



From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 12 22:32:19 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:32:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <969cfm+d7cb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010212223219.17545.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12121


--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:

> Maybe we should create a dictionary of 'Rowlingisms' on top of all 
> our other 'let's not get bored before Book 5' projects?

I'd volunteer to compile this, if no one else is particularly
interested, and there isn't already one... I love words and the
evolution of language. 

It's terrible, at least three of my friends have picked up saying
schnoogles from me already. Al? You're succeeding marvelously in your
quest (not to mention ToT... review later.)

I know, I know, this post is short. Question: Has the list discussed
snakes as a symbol for immortality? I ran into a reference to snakes
as the symbol of the Sacred King of the ancient Greek matriarchal
society, who were given the gift of immortality after they were eaten
by the reigning Priestess. Sounds a lot like the death eaters to me.

 - Teek 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From rboswell at mediaone.net  Mon Feb 12 22:26:44 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:26:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Weird Names
References: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDD2@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <007801c09542$e35bd380$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12122

Speaking of weird names...I knew a girl named Asshole pronounced ASH-ho-lay.

--Becca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meredith Wilson" <aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:12 AM
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] OT: Weird Names


> And I thought the twins my dad went to school with were bad - Syphillis
> (pronounced sih-FIL-us) and Gonorrhea (pronounced guh-NOHR-ee-uh)!
>
> Meredith, who also knew of a set of twins named Orangejello and Lemonjello
> pronounced like the pair we read about before.  Hoo-boy... some people.
>
>
> ** Yeah, these names are bad and all, but my mom (former
> ** preschool director)
> ** had a student whose name spelled Sh*thead, but pronounced
> ** Sha-they-id.
> **
> **
> ** >
> ** >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nathan" <duo at d...> wrote:
> ** > >
> ** > > peaking of weird names, I have a friend named Baryon Tensor. His
> ** >older
> ** > > brother is Agham Bayan which means Science Nation. And
> ** his twin kid
> ** >brothers
> ** > > are Hector Atom and Vector Ion.
> ** > > Yes, their parents are experimental physicists of great
> ** renown here.
> ** >
> ** >My mother, in her years of teaching elementary school, has
> ** come across
> ** >some real all-stars. For instance (and I swear to God these
> ** are real):
> ** >"Damage" (pronounced Dah-MAH-jay)
> ** >"Female" (pronounced Feh-MAH-lee)
> ** >...and my personal favorite...
> ** >"Canine" (pronounced Ka-NEEN)
> ** >Parents aren't exactly rocket scientists (or experimental
> ** physicists,
> ** >for that matter).
> ** >-Mike
> ** >
> **
> ** _________________________________________________________________
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From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 12 22:50:44 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:50:44 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  RE: Questions for R/Hers...
In-Reply-To: <3A8839F6.4EB43650@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <969pc4+i975@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12123

> > It is so galling when you are jealous of someone and he doesn't 
even *want* the things that you
> > covet.
> >
> Exactly!  See above -- what if Harry not only didn't want something 
that
> Ron coveted but also rejected the very thing Ron wanted.



Well...

We need to consider the fact that Ron is probably the most 
underdeveloped and immature of the Trio thus far. I think that part of 
Ron's maturation is that he learns to let go of his jealousy of Harry 
and to see that everything Harry has isn't necessarily desirable. A 
mature Ron will be able to accept what he himself is, and won't covet 
things of Harry's. Therefore, all this about Ron getting Hermione 
because Harry has everything else is not that good of an argument- Ron 
needs to mature before he and Hermione can have a fulfulling 
relationship, but by then, he'll have let go of his jealousy of Harry.

*looks back at her words* By the Goddess that was confusing. In 
retrospect, in fact, it doesn't seem to make much sense at all. I 
suppose I'm trying to say that, if Ron and Hermione ever develop a 
relationship, it won't be because of something so petty as 'Harry 
always has everything', because by the time Ron and Hermione can 
really have a fulfulling relationship, Ron will have matured enough to 
be content with what he has.

- Celeste Chang




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Mon Feb 12 22:46:21 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:46:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's new words (was Chap 30 summary)
References: <969cfm+d7cb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ce01c09545$9fb9a640$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12124

<snip>
> "Writers create new words all the time, and I'm tempted to say that
> the better the writer, the more such coinages you will find, since
> good writers have greater creativity.  Just think of Shakespeare and
> Joyce.  And until Rowling came along, Dementor, Quidditch, time-
> turners, floo powder, pensieve, etc. were not "real" words, either.

    Actually, if you think about it, all words are made up.  I mean, who
came up with the word "word" for that matter?

--Becca




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Mon Feb 12 23:00:41 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:00:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
References: <F2400IP5zGBprWC5YJO00009995@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d401c09547$a003e3c0$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12125

Hey!

    On the Ship wars, I personally don't have a definite ship.  Seeing as by
the time the trio's seventh year rolls around, all three of them will be so
extreamlly close and will know each other so incredibly well, romantic love
won't be much of an issue.
    As for in the long run, though, there are lot of hints to a R/Hr the
GoF.  I think JKR is planning a R/Hr...but there isnt any definite evidence.
One clue is:

<<Standing ten feet apart, ther were bellowing at each other, each scarlet
in the face.
"Well if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't you?"
yelled Hermione...
"Oh yea?" Ron yelled back. "What's that?"
"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a
last resort!"
Ron mouthed soundlessly like a goldfish out of water as Hermione turned on
her heel and stormed up the girls' staircase to bed.>>

    Ok, so Hermione is *hinting* Ron to ask her out.  And Ron obviously
scowls at Viktor whenever he's near in GoF, not to mention the little
incident with the figurine arm.  Plus, this book is somewhat from Harry's
POV, and we all know that Harry's all gushy for Cho at the moment.  The only
remotely H/Hr comment made was at the Yule Ball, where Harry commented that
a "pretty girl in blue robes" was walking with Viktor.
    So, any thoughts otherwise are still welcome.  And opinions on the
upcoming movie?  I personally think that it's going to be a good production
but majorly off from my personal view of the wizarding world in general.
Kind of a bittersweet deal. o.O

Becca


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 1:36 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Questions for R/Hers...


> This post is dedicated to the entire Mod Squad, who thought the Great
> Shipping Debate was Resting In Peace.  Cheers!
>
> First question--
>
> One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to debunk HGTG
is
> that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he doesn't
> have... the girl."
>
> Validity of the above position aside... doesn't this reasoning work most
> satisfactorily if the hero actually wants the girl, and the girl (you have
> to admit the terminology involved in this position is troublesome) chooses
> the alternate hero/sidekick over him?
>
> After all...
>
> Ron has a lot that Harry doesn't have... red hair, height, 20/20 vision,
> formerly a rat... this list goes on a bit further, but you catch my drift.
> There is no indication thus far that Harry wants any of these things.
>
> If Hermione also falls under this Unwanted category, I'm not sure how
canon
> R/H would give Ron the satisfaction that he has something that Harry
> doesn't.  I'm not sure that even getting the girl at this point would
> completely alleviate his growing disquietude.
>
> However...
>
> If the H/Hers' FITD theory is *reversed* all of a sudden from
>
> R----->He---(?)--->Ha----->C/R/no one
>
> to a chain that is highly implausible at this point in canon--
>
> Ha----->He----->R
>
> ...it seems as if this would satisfy the R/H argument that "Ron needs
> something that Harry doesn't have" to "Ron deserves something that Harry
> doesn't have *and wants*."
>
> Since there is no canonical evidence whatsoever of Reversed FITD, how does
> Ron Getting Hermione (winces again at the terminology) fulfill the
criteria
> set forth by R/Hers in the first place?
>
> I'm not arguing my ship here.  Please help me understand.  And don't fear
a
> trap!  Cassie's offline until at least Friday, Penny's not posting very
> much, and the other H/Hers are quiet, gentle souls.  So here I stand, all
> alone...  :::Ebony starts humming and singing:::
>
> Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated, paired-off
> future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't arguing.  I got
> some silly responses that you'd have to check the chat transcripts for,
but
> the top three answers were:  1)  Humdrum everyday things... what do all
> couples talk about?  2)  His work--her work.  3)  Talk?  They'd be too
busy
> shagging.  ;o)  (Of course, all the H/H and no-shippers in the room ran
away
> screaming at that point.)
>
> I really want to make an honest attempt to understand the other PoV, but
my
> brain is *refusing* to think along those lines. I need some help, please.
> As I'm on leave until next Monday, that means you guys have one week to
get
> me to jump ship.  Who knows?  Perhaps I'll be traveling on the Good Ship
R/H
> by March... don't look at me like that!  Stranger things have happened!
>
> Thanks ever so much in advance,
>
> Ebony (who, in writing Episode 7 of her soap, is going through an entire
> case of virtual Pepto)
>
> <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
> Ebony AKA AngieJ
> (H/H Special Agent, First Class)
>
> Join us in Paradise!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise
>
> "I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A
> dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the
> woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one
or
> two unique little nightmares.
>
> "What will you give me for a dream?"
>
> --Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 00:11:38 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:11:38 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <001901c09540$abcf29a0$24690f3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <969u3q+10a0d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12126

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
<snip>
> 
"Call me a heretic (and I know the Snape lovers will), ...and before 
I say this, let me insist that Snape is one of my favorite 
characters...but I see Snape as a literary device more than a person 
to be psychoanalyzed.  Now, I firmly believe that there is more to 
Snape than we see and he will become instrumental in the coming war 
with Voldmort, but, as far as his personality in the classroom, I 
have trouble reading too much into it.  I think that he's nasty to 
Gryffindors simply because they're Gryffindors and he's a Slytherin.  
I also think that JKR has made him the stereotypical mean teacher for 
the sake of making Harry's life more interesting, and not  just 
because Snape has some deep, dark secrets in his psyche..."
<snip>

Nah, I see your point. Most of the "analysis" I'm doing is 
speculation. Part of the reason we talk so much about Snape is that 
he's got interesting contradictions, yet we've been mostly told about 
them secondhand (mostly through Dumbledore) rather than seeing them 
ourselves. We haven't been shown how they fit together. So we can 
make up plausible psychoanalytic scenarios, which are fun, but not 
taken to be taken too seriously.  We don't have much actual insight 
into Snape's character yet, unless he suddenly begins to have 
tortured monologues that Harry starts to overhear, or appoints Harry 
as his special confidant (hahahaha!). But the enimity between Snape 
and Harry and his nastiness in class does connect in some way to what 
else we know, and what we are told is more positive from what is on 
the surface of his everyday interactions with Harry, which makes it 
interesting as well. Harry and his associates (think conversation 
with Sirius in GoF) don't really get Snape either, and we won't until 
they do. 

Charmian, speculatively




From morine10 at aol.com  Tue Feb 13 01:06:20 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:06:20 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
Message-ID: <b5.705f812.27b9e28c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12127

Ahoy!

Ebony:
> One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to 
> debunk HGTG is that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves 
> something that he doesn't  have... the girl."
> 

BBennett:
> I think there's been some misinterpretation as to what HGTG
> means. I know I'm relatively new to HP4GU, but I've never
> thought HGTG was offered to support the idea that Ron deserves 
> Hermione, but as a  theory to explain why some people think Harry 
> 

Yes, it was never meant as a reason *why* Ron deserves Hermione (or why 
Hermione deserves Ron <g>).  I have *never* used the argument that Ron and 
Hermione should be together because Harry has *everything* and Ron needs 
*something*.  That is ridiculous.  What I have posted numerous times is this 
-- (ship preference aside) 
--HGTG is IMO simply pairing the main male protagonist with the main female 
protagonist with disregard to the (sometimes subtle) clues left by the author 
that point elsewhere.  In many children's fantasies and fairy tales the 
prince searches for his princess and there is really no question who the 
princess will turn out to be. I was a kid when Star Wars came out.  We all 
thought Luke and Leia were the perfect couple.  Really there was nothing to 
base it on except HGTG. This leads me into FITD, which from reading your 
theories (correct me if I'm wrong) it came about by asking 
youngsters/adolescents *who* they thought Hermione liked.  Again I'll state 
that it's just my opinion, but I feel that they are not able to read JKR's 
subtle clues and are automatically paring H with H.  
--Now for my finale <g>.  B mentioned the POV of the books -3rd person, 
limited omniscient.  In our case everything we know about all the other 
characters is colored by Harry.  He's not sitting around psychoanalyzing 
everything his friends say.  We have to interpret his reactions -- and we all 
know how many different interpretations we can come up with.  B also pointed 
out that if he did have feelings for Hermione we would know.  Now I don't 
think Harry's all that concerned about his best friends' love life together.  
He doesn't give it much thought.  The most is after the Yule Brawl <g> when 
he thinks "Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had."  Boom, 
he's back to thinking of other more important things like Cho and Quidditch.  
If we had Lavender's or Parvati's view we would have more details.  What I'm 
trying to say is that Harry stinks at giving us the dirt but if you look 
closely enough, you can tell where JKR is leading us.  

Of course all this is all my opinion but I really tried not to be shippy 
about it.  <vbg>


> > Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated, 
> paired-off future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't 
> arguing.  I got some silly responses that you'd have to check the 
> chat transcripts for, but  the top three answers were:  1)  Humdrum 
> everyday things... what do all  couples talk about?  2)  His work--
> her work.  3)  Talk?  They'd be too busy  shagging.  ;o)  (Of course, 
> all the H/H and no-shippers in the room ran away 
> screaming at that point.)
> 

To quote George from Seinfeld ...*Nothing*.  ;)  Although, LOL,  3 is good 
too.  <bg>

Ebony:
> As I'm on leave until next Monday, that means you 
> guys have one week to get me to jump ship.  Who knows?  Perhaps I'll 
> be traveling on the Good Ship R/H  by March... don't look at me like 
> that!  Stranger things have happened!
> 

You're always welcome to stop by!  We love visitors. :)

And get cracking on the next part to TIP!

-Mo
(AKA Moey)

"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Feb 13 01:16:32 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:16:32 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  RE: Questions for R/Hers...
In-Reply-To: <3A8839F6.4EB43650@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <96a1tg+mv0l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12128


> bbennett at j... wrote:

> > Suggesting HGTG as a reason for the defense of H/H is just 
a theory, but it can be reasonably analyzed and debated.

Penny wrote: 
> Not sure if I understood the above correctly, but H/H types 
*never* use HGTG as a *defense* to H/H.  What you see is R/H 
shippers arguing that H/H can't happen because HGTG is too 
cliche.  At least, that's my take on it.

Penny, I didn't make myself clear. What I tried to express is that 
while I think HGTG as defense for Ron and Hermione has no 
logic behind it, the concept of HGTG as support of a character 
pairing might at least be a debatable theory, from a literary 
standpoint, at least.  I didn't mean to suggest that H/H'er routinely 
use HGTG to support or defend their views! Does this make any 
more sense? I've had a migraine for two days now and I may just 
be babbling at this point.

Penny wrote: 
> That's what I think too, Rina.  But, you don't see the H/H types 
arguing either side.  We argue that Hermione's feelings are just 
as important as Ron or Harry's feelings.  Where we disagree 
with the R/H types is that we interpret Hermione as having 
feelings for Harry (hence, HGTG and Sidekick gets the Girl as a 
consolation prize becomes doubly offensive to most of us).  But, 
the H/H types are equally disturbed by the R/H position that Ron 
deserves the girl because he needs something that Harry 
doesn't have.

Well,  I'm an R/H type, I also think Hermione's feelings are 
important, and I doubt I'm the only one. :*)  Again, as I said in my 
first post, I certainly don't think Ron "deserves" Hermione 
because he needs something Harry doesn't have, and Rina 
posted she didn't think that way, either.  Not every R/H person 
thinks this way.

Penny wrote: 
> FITD: Ron likes Hermione; Hermione likes Harry; and Harry 
likes either no one or someone outside the Trio.

Thank you! Now it makes sense.

Penny wrote: 

> If R/H occurs in canon, I don't see it lasting.  But then, I see
> absolutely no reason why James Carville & Mary Matalin have 
any kind of marriage at all -- I'm completely unable to fathom 
*how* they could put aside such deep disagreements & nurture 
their marriage when they're  "off-stage."  But, to each his own ...>

They are an interesting couple, aren't they?  As I mentioned in my 
first post, I've got a pair of friends who have a wonderful R/H type 
of relationship. As you said, to each his own.

Best Regards,
B.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 13 01:25:45 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:25:45 -0600
Subject: SHIP:  RE: Questions for R/Hers...
References: <b5.705f812.27b9e28c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A888D19.F7A2F53@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12129

Hi --

morine10 at aol.com wrote:

> Ahoy!

Ahoy to you too!

> What I have posted numerous times is this
> -- (ship preference aside)
> --HGTG is IMO simply pairing the main male protagonist with the main
> female protagonist with disregard to the (sometimes subtle) clues left
> by the author that point elsewhere.

Well, the H/H types do not use HGTG as an argument.  We *hate* HGTG --
it's demeaning to Hermione first of all.  It's the *R/H* types who have
used HGTG.  They use it to say that H/H *can't* end up together because
it *would* be HGTG.  But, there are lots of scenarios under which H/H
get together at some point that do not fall into HGTG (IMO).

> This leads me into FITD, which from reading your theories (correct me
> if I'm wrong) it came about by asking youngsters/adolescents *who*
> they thought Hermione liked.

Actually, no, that's not how FITD came into being.  FITD came into being
to explain what alot of us  believe is going on in the subtext of the
books.  We base FITD on what *we* believe are subtle hints left by the
author.  Many of us believe that R/H is *surface* text only.  It is
clear as day that Ron likes Hermione.  But, Hermione's feelings are *at
best* arguable.  They are subject to varying interpretations.

> Again I'll state that it's just my opinion, but I feel that they are
> not able to read JKR's subtle clues and are automatically paring H
> with H.

I do hope that you are speaking solely about the "kid" readers and not
levelling a huge insult at the reasonably large number of adults with
advanced degrees who fall into the H/H camp.  <g>  It is the  opinion of
many H/H'ers that the R/H types are the ones who are missing the clues
left by JKR and automatically pairing Hermione off with Ron because the
surface text so clearly indicates that *he* likes *her*.  We think
they're missing the ship!  <g>

> What I'm trying to say is that Harry stinks at giving us the dirt but
> if you look closely enough, you can tell where JKR is leading us.

She's hit us over the head with the fact that Ron likes Hermione.  But,
wouldn't it be entirely too obvious (and too unlike JKR) to tread down
that path without throwing in a plot twist or two (or three ....)?  <g>

> Of course all this is all my opinion but I really tried not to be
> shippy
> about it.  <vbg>

All the above is just my opinion as well.  I don't speak for *all* my
shipmates.  And, to avoid any confusion whatsoever, this post is most
categorically not in my position as one of the Moderators of this
group.  My personal shipping views are neither sanctioned by nor agreed
to by my fellow Moderators (who are mostly non-shippers).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 13 01:55:56 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:55:56 -0600
Subject: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"
References: <000b01c094c1$34b2b5a0$fe3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <3A88942C.18570E7A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12130

Hi --

Neil Ward wrote:

> (2) Curiosity is not a sinbut we should exercise caution with our curiosity, says message-of-the-day-Dumbledore.  Would Harry find something he didnt want to know if he dug
> too deeply?

Maybe not so much that he would find something he didn't want to find out, but maybe it would happen that he would things out too quickly, before he was ready to hear them.

> (3) Will Harry befriend Neville and will Neville seek revenge for the attack on his parents?

I think it's likely that Harry will befriend Neville more.  He's always been nice enough to Neville, but in sort of a distracted way I suppose.  I think he'll pay more attention ...
seek him out as a friend more in the 5th book.  He didn't have much time to do so after the Pensieve chapter before things spiraled out of control.  But, we do get a glimpse that
he's berating himself for never troubling to ask Neville more about his personal life.  Harry now has an awareness that he and Neville have bonds that he (Harry) doesn't have with
his other close friends.  I think he will act on that.

I think Neville will become a more important character in the coming books, and I actually don't peg him to die really.  I rather suspect we'll all find out *why* Neville was placed
in Gryffindor.  There's an inner resevoir of strength within him that the Sorting Hat saw (although it took its time with him).  I don't know if he will "avenge" his parents, but I
think he'll play an important role in the coming War.

> (4) Bagman is described as muscly.  This is not a word.  Could this be evidence that JKR did indeed write the infamous wand order revision, using that non-word untidy-haired?

Hmmm ..... maybe it's the same out-to-lunch editor who's slipping in these non-words.  <g>

> (5) Could Dumbledores reference to our side imply some sort of organised group or is it a reference to non-V supporters in general?

I took it to be more of a general reference, but the group has speculated that Order of Phoenix might well be an anti-Voldy group of some sort.

> (6) Crouch says to Karkaroff: you have been brought from Azkaban to give evidence to the Ministry of Magic. So, was this dungeon at the MoM?

I believe that it was.  See ASA!!!  (shameless self-plug for fanfic ....)

Penny




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 13 02:07:27 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:07:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
References: <b5.705f812.27b9e28c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003801c09561$b8ebc780$ef41d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12131


----- Original Message -----
From: <morine10 at aol.com>



> This leads me into FITD, which from reading your
> theories (correct me if I'm wrong) it came about by asking
> youngsters/adolescents *who* they thought Hermione liked.  Again I'll
state
> that it's just my opinion, but I feel that they are not able to read JKR's
> subtle clues and are automatically paring H with H.

I really don't think this was the case.  Just to refresh, the views of the
adolescents polled by Cassandra, Ebony, and others was not a response to the
question who likes whom.  It was a response to the question what did that
kiss (that Hermione gave Harry) at the end of GoF mean. They were drawing on
their personal experience being 14.  I know the books are written by an
adult, so maybe she didn't know what the kiss would mean to an adolescent
teen.   All the adolescents polled  seemed to definitely think it indicated
Hermione liked Harry and not just to pair the two protagonists.  I think JKR
knew exactly what she was doing with the kiss.  FITD...FITD....hi ho the
merrio...FITD

carole





From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Tue Feb 13 02:15:53 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:15:53 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
In-Reply-To: <F2400IP5zGBprWC5YJO00009995@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96a5cp+10bvf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12132

Ebony,
I'm not sure if I am going to make any sense here. I almost 
considered not answering this thread, as I'm pretty sure that 
anything I say will be taken out of context.  But I'll try to explain 
myself clearly.

Ebony wrote:
>One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to debunk 
HGTG is 
>that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he 
doesn't 
>have... the girl."

Well, I am, as you know, one of the biggest believers in the R/H way, 
and that has never been one of my arguments for R/H or 
for "debunking" the "HGTG" theory.  As a matter of fact, I don't 
choose to base my beliefs that JKR will make a Ron/Hermione 
relationship a sideline story on any such theory.  I also don't think 
that Harry has everything.  It's the fact that Harry is so normal 
that makes him such a likable character.

I don't see Ron/Hermione as having anything to do with Harry at all, 
to be perfectly honest.  At the moment, I think that the main reason 
that Ron likes Hermione is that he's a 14-year old boy and she 
happens to be the one person who makes his heart thump.   If Ron 
really was coveting something of Harry's, he'd be drooling all over 
Cho Chang, (even though she's not "Harry's" - I'm having a hard time 
with all of this possessiveness), Ron is aware of Harry's crush. 

The main point that you seem to be missing is that most R/H shippers 
tend to believe that there's evidence out there that Hermione likes 
Ron back.  I won't rehash all of the same arguments again (for 
example, what I like to term the "great semi-colon debate").  We 
don't see this as being about any sort of Ron/Harry competition.   If 
I saw evidence in the books that Hermione had any feelings other than 
friendship for Harry, I'd probably be climbing aboard the good ship 
H/H, but I just don't interpret the books that way.   If anything, I 
see a Ron/Hermione pairing as a benefit for Harry - I think he 
depends on them almost as one would family, and their "union" so to 
speak would solidify that family unit.   

Zsenya





From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Feb 13 02:42:51 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:42:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: James Potter's house
Message-ID: <20010213024251.AE3B536FA@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12133

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From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 03:12:09 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 03:12:09 -0000
Subject: SHIP: The Hermione problem and other things (was  RE: Questions for R/Hers...)
In-Reply-To: <3A888D19.F7A2F53@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <96a8m9+lol8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12134

--I don't think we can say that Harry has no romantic feelings for 
Hermione. We certainly haven't seen any, but that doesn't mean that 
they might not be there somewhere. In fact this could go for any 
charater who we'd like to speculate about, but especially Harry as we 
do get some of his thoughts. The whole universe is only half has 
expansive as one's mind.  There are thoughts, feelings,  and emotions 
of Harry's that we'll never see. That does NOT mean they aren't 
there.  I'll be willing to bet that most of us don't even have a 
grasp on the depths of our own mind, our subconcious. I know I don't. 

I am a H/H shipper, and a proud one at that. However a thought struck 
me reading some of these last posts. No matter which ship you're on 
Hermione is being sold short. There's H/H and R/H both of which deal 
with Hermione getting together with her one of ther friends. Even 
FITD theory doesn't give Hermione much choice. We seem to accept that 
Harry might end up with someone else, and Ron might too. But Hermione 
ALWAYS seems to end up with Harry or Ron. What about Viktor? Granted 
I don't think her relationship with Krum was all that serious, nor do 
I think it will last. It just seems much more in Hermione's character 
to make a choice based on how she feels rather than just compromising 
between Harry or Ron. (I'm not saying that a romance b/w H/H or R/H 
would HAVE to seem like a compromise, but it easily could.)

There is something special about the Trio's friendship. There is 
evident love and trust. (Which has wavered during arguements in the 
past books, but I think that it is clearly there.)  Ther is NO way a 
romance between two member's of the Trio could not affect the 3rd 
party. Even if Harry isn't interested in Hermione and R/H happens he 
is still going to feel the affects of it. The way this might effect 
Ron (in a H/H situation) has already been argued eloquently so I 
shall leave well enough alone.

Ultimetly I guess that whatever happens happens. I shall continue to 
believe that Harry and Hermione complement each other more and that 
this pairing is more likely (post-canon IMO) than R/H. I would just 
rather see the trio find love elsewhere than have romance break them 
apart. Of course if JKR writes it convincingly I can TRY to accept 
anything (-even R/H. (Gasp) perish the thought!)

Penny wrote:
"Well, the H/H types do not use HGTG as an argument.  We *hate* HGTG 
it's demeaning to Hermione first of all.  It's the *R/H* types who 
have used HGTG.  They use it to say that H/H *can't* end up together 
because it *would* be HGTG.  But, there are lots of scenarios under 
which H/H get together at some point that do not fall into HGTG 
(IMO)."

--I don't like HGTG for so many reasons. Of course it degrades 
Hermione (see above) and over simplifies the emotions of these 
characters we've come to know and love, but most of all it seems far 
to "black and white" for JKR.

Penny wrote:
"I do hope that you are speaking solely about the "kid" readers and 
not levelling a huge insult at the reasonably large number of adults 
with advanced degrees who fall into the H/H camp.  <g>  It is the  
opinion of many H/H'ers that the R/H types are the ones who are 
missing the clues left by JKR and automatically pairing Hermione off 
with Ron because the surface text so clearly indicates that *he* 
likes *her*.  We think they're missing the ship!  <g>

--Right Penny! The subtle clues lead more towards H/H. The surface 
text seems obviously more like  R/H. IMO those R/H are the ones not 
reading into the canon. Perhaps this explains why more kids seem to 
be R/H.

Penny wrote:
"What I'm trying to say is that Harry stinks at giving us the dirt but
if you look closely enough, you can tell where JKR is leading us.
She's hit us over the head with the fact that Ron likes Hermione.  
But, wouldn't it be entirely too obvious (and too unlike JKR) to 
tread down that path without throwing in a plot twist or two (or 
three ....)?  <g>

--That's why we can discuss these books over and over and over 
and...tear them apart, and still have things to talk about. You never 
know with Jo! 

Penny wrote:
"All the above is just my opinion as well.  I don't speak for *all* my
shipmates.  And, to avoid any confusion whatsoever, this post is most
categorically not in my position as one of the Moderators of this
group.  My personal shipping views are neither sanctioned by nor 
agreed to by my fellow Moderators (who are mostly non-shippers)."

--It's okay Penny we forgive you! You and Eb are far better at 
arguing our "obviously superior views" (Relax Kathy I'm kidding!!!). 
I'm content to just be a humble deck hand.

Ebony had asked (I'm not quoting her directly)
What would Hermione and Ron talk about?

--I don't know. What DO married couples talk about?  I have often 
seen older couples sitting in resturants or riding in cars and not 
even talking or looking at each other. 

I would guess that they would talk about general things, the weather 
(maybe not) you know friends what they're planning to do. I don't 
know whatever normal people talk about...I guess these things are so 
mundane that we don't even know exactly what they are. (They could 
always talk about their favourite books. We certainly find the 
subject fascinating!)

Scott




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 03:43:52 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 03:43:52 -0000
Subject: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"
In-Reply-To: <3A88942C.18570E7A@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <96aaho+ifaj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12135

Neil wrote:
(2) "Curiosity is not a sin
but we should exercise caution with our 
curiosity," says message-of-the-day-Dumbledore.  Would Harry find 
something he didn't want to know if he dug too deeply?

--Dumbledore Obviously WANTED Harry to find the Pensieve, but like in 
SS/PS he says "when you're ready you will know". Like Penny said 
there may simply have been things in there that Harry wasn't ready 
for.

Question- Once Dumbledore puts a memory into the Pensieve does he no 
longer have conscious recollection of it?
 
Neil wrote:
(3) Will Harry befriend Neville and will Neville seek revenge for the 
attack on his parents?

--So far in the canon Neville doesn't seem to be the type to seek 
revenge. On another note Neville is Harry's friend, but I think that 
he might possibly become more so in the future. It also doesn't 
suprise me that Harry doesn't know about Neville's parents. A lot of 
times people are uncomfortable asking about other peoples past. 

(4) Bagman is described as "muscly".  This is not a word.  Could this 
be evidence that JKR did indeed write the infamous wand order 
revision, using that non-word "untidy-haired"?

--Possibly...

(6) Crouch says to Karkaroff: "you have been brought from Azkaban to 
give evidence to the Ministry of Magic." So, was this dungeon at the 
MoM?

--That seems very likely. Does this mean that the Wizarding world 
doesn't have an established court system...

Scott




From morine10 at aol.com  Tue Feb 13 04:59:32 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:59:32 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:  RE: Questions for R/Hers...
Message-ID: <21.75953f2.27ba1934@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12136


Hi again!

I wrote
> --HGTG is IMO simply pairing the main male protagonist with the main
> > female protagonist with disregard to the (sometimes subtle) clues left
> > by the author that point elsewhere.
> 

Penny:
> Well, the H/H types do not use HGTG as an argument.  We *hate* HGTG --
> it's demeaning to Hermione first of all.  It's the *R/H* types who have
> used HGTG.  They use it to say that H/H *can't* end up together because
> it *would* be HGTG.  But, there are lots of scenarios under which H/H
> get together at some point that do not fall into HGTG (IMO).
> 

BBennett
> Penny, I didn't make myself clear. What I tried to express is that 
> while I think HGTG as defense for Ron and Hermione has no 
> logic behind it, the concept of HGTG as support of a character 
> pairing might at least be a debatable theory, from a literary 
> standpoint, at least.? I didn't mean to suggest that H/H'er routinely 
> use HGTG to support or defend their views!
> 
> 

We are *never* going to see eye to eye.  I could explain HGTG till I'm quite 
blue in the face but I'll try one more time.  It was never meant to say that 
anyone (male or female) should be *getting* anyone.  And personally, girl 
doesn't offend me, but that's just me so sorry to all those that are 
offended.  Let's just drop HGTG and I will ask this:

As an H/H type you claim that R/H is obvious and why would JKR go for the 
obvious?  As an R/H type, I ask wouldn't pairing the main male protagonist 
with the main female protagonist be obvious from a literary standpoint?  Why 
would JKR tread down this obvious path?  

Penny:
> I do hope that you are speaking solely about the "kid" readers and not
> levelling a huge insult at the reasonably large number of adults with
> advanced degrees who fall into the H/H camp.  <g>  It is the  opinion of
> many H/H'ers that the R/H types are the ones who are missing the clues
> left by JKR and automatically pairing Hermione off with Ron because the
> surface text so clearly indicates that *he* likes *her*.  We think
> they're missing the ship!  <g>
> 

Er, yeah the kids, that's what I meant! <vbg>  Actually, the last *several* 
times I've posted on this I've made a point to clarify that I was speaking of 
the younger readers.  However, the R/H types of various ages with varying 
levels of education will continue to argue that there is no H/H subtext. <vbg>
 

Penny
> She's hit us over the head with the fact that Ron likes Hermione.  But,
> wouldn't it be entirely too obvious (and too unlike JKR) to tread down
> that path without throwing in a plot twist or two (or three ....)?  <g>
> 

Ron wears his heart on his sleeve.  Hermione is a bit more reserved.  I don't 
think R/H would be too obvious or too unlike JKR at all.  I really don't 
think that she has to add a *twist* to everything or will feel the need to.  
Some things can be cut and dry and still be interesting and fun to read 
about. :)


-Mo
(AKA Moey)
Who thought she was a Type B, but as it turns out she's a Type R/H

"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Feb 13 05:33:05 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:33:05 -0800
Subject: Buck Teeth - Pensieve - PWD Students - Owls - Ships - 
Message-ID: <3A88C70F.4686F1FD@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12137

The great Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> Then does the fact fit in that it took an unusual and slightly
> underhanded situation for Hermione to "fix" her teeth? She wouldn't
> have been able to just ask Pomfrey to change her teeth, but since she
> was in that unexpectedly perfect situation, she went for it. I mean,
> that's a clear example of a spell being available and Hermione not
> using it. I know, I know, her parents wanted her to have braces (for
> the same character reasons, probably) but she could have snuck around
> that, certainly.

Hermione SAID that the reason she hadn't previously fixed her teeth by
magic was because her parents wouldn't allow it because they are
dentists and believe that magic and teeth don't mix. What evidence is
there that Hermione was not telling the truth? Without evidence, why
assert 'she could have snuck around that'?-- maybe she obeyed because
she is a good kid with a lot more respect for her parents than I had for
mine.  Why assert that the parents' motive was to build her character
rather than being convinced that they, as professionals, knew the best
way to fix teeth for long-term health and not getting jaw diseases in
later life? Why assert that the wizarding world has a taboo, that we
have never heard about, against fixing 'minor' problems for the sake of
building character -- look at the Malfoys, Fudge, Bagman -- what makes
you think they CARE about character?

Flying Ford Anglia wrote:
> (2) Curiosity is not a sin ... but we should exercise caution with
our
> curiosity, says message-of-the-day-Dumbledore.  Would Harry find
> something he didn't want to know if he dug too deeply?

I took this as general praise of caution in all circumstances.  For
example, when satisfying your curiosity, take care not to *get caught*
breaking the rules.

Scott wrote:
> > (6) Crouch says to Karkaroff: "you have been brought from
> > Azkaban to give evidence to the Ministry of Magic." So, was
> > this dungeon at the MoM?
> That seems very likely. Does this mean that the Wizarding world
> doesn't have an established court system...

I assume that that dungeon/courtroom was at the MoM building, but that
the MoM building is huge, much bigger inside than out, and contains the
courthouse as well as city hall and the library and the museum and the
police (Auror, Enforcer) headquarters (Department of Magical Law
Enforcement) and the fire department headquarters (Emergency Magical
Service) and the registry office (for quick weddings) and all the other
stuff that makes a Civic Center a Civic Center.

ender wrote:
> I have to disagree here.  I think this is oversimplifying.  The
sonorous
> charm works on the voice itself. Most children who are nonverbal due
to
> neurological disabilities have absolutely no problem with their
voices, but
> instead with the parts of their brain that control their ability to
use language.

First, we were discussing some list member's brother who cannot speak,
but uses language by typing on some adaptive device that requires
electricity to run. That doesn't sound like he's non-verbal or unable to
use language. However, I don't deny that the problem might be in the
parts of the brain that control the voice rather than in mouth or
throat. However, just because the problem is in the brain doesn't mean
it can't be cured by a spell on the mouth.

Someone (was it Steve Van der Ark? Jim Flanagan?) long ago wrote about
magic producing results according to Intention.  His example was the
Skele-Grow Potion, which was intended to regrow the missing bone from
Harry's arm and that is what it did, unlike a Muggle drug which would
have caused every bone of his body to to start growing unnecessary and
harmful bone spurs or tumors. The same way, the variant of the Sonorus
charm would work its effect wherever it was needed to achieve the
Intended result, despite being cast on the mouth or throat because that
tells the magic what result is wanted.

> Besides, I'd like to think that if a child has a disability that can
> be fixed or changed by magic, it would be done in the early years
> by  trained medical wizards.

For wizard-born children, I certainly agree with you! But for
Muggle-born witch and wizard children, do you mean that medimages should
Apparate into the neonatal nursery to cast spells on the children?

Meredith Wilson <aviationoutreachcoord at m...> wrote:
> why then in PoA did nobody ever send an owl to
> Sirius and just follow it on broomstick to find his whereabouts?

There must be some reason why NO ONE can follow an owl letter-carrier
even if the recipient ISN'T in hiding. I like to think that owls fly
'between' like Pern dragons (i.e. they go to their destination through
an alternate dimension), but I have to think up a reason the owls can be
seen passing overhead. Maybe they flick in and out of 'between'. At any
rate, they flick out of 'between' before coming in for landing, because
Sirius told Harry to use a different owl for each post to him, lest
someone see the same owl arriving all the time and get suspicious.

Having noticed your edress, were you planning to follow an owl to Sirius
in a light plane?

Meredith Wilson wrote:
> Ebony wrote:
> > 1)  Stealth owls.  These owls are invisible in flight...
> > ** bird and post only ** appear to sender and recipient.
> That would show how Sirius could possibly send an owl to Harry
> without being seen although the Firebolt came by regular owl(s),
> but there's no reason to send a stealth owl  _to_  him.

The reason to send a stealth owl TO Sirius (altho' I don't believe in
stealth owls) is so that no one can find Sirius's hiding place by
watching to see where the owl lands.

The Firebolt came from Sirius only in the sense that he paid for it --
physically, it came from Quality Quidditch or the Firebolt factory.
Finding out where the six delivery owls came from wouldn't have been a
clue to Sirius's hiding place.

Mo wrote:
> I was a kid when Star Wars came out.  We all thought Luke and
> Leia were the perfect couple.  Really there was nothing to base it on
> except HGTG.

Star Wars was deliberately made of archetypes. It is an archetype that
siblings have a special rapport, even if they were separated at birth.
Therefore, it is part of the archetype that a boy and a girl who don't
know that they are siblings will feel the rapport without understanding
the reason and therefore think that they are falling in love. The
expectation wasn't based on nothing, it was based on the actors having
successfully portrayed rapport.

The alleged rapport between siblings could be based either on
metaphysical reasons like they have the same ancestral spirits looking
after them, or on scientific reductionist reasons like they have
similarities in those of their personality traits that are genetic, or
they smell like family -- that sounds ridiculous, but you know how a dog
can recognize people by smell? The unique individual smell comes from a
combination of genes, so siblings would have a lot of the same genes
and  would smell similar, and there has been research on rats showing
that rats attack unrelated rats but tolerate their siblings because they
recognize the familiar smell.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Tue Feb 13 06:48:20 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:48:20 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stalking by Owl
Message-ID: <39.1087067d.27ba32b4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12138

In a message dated 2/13/2001 0:36:22 AM EST, catlady at wicca.net writes:

<< There must be some reason why NO ONE can follow an owl letter-carrier
 even if the recipient ISN'T in hiding.  >>

Yes, Rita, there has to be.  Otherwise Gilderoy Lockhart would have been 
constantly pestered by groupies (prior to his unfortunate accident at the end 
of COS, that is).  Not that GH would have minded that so much, but surely 
other Wizard Superstars (such as Viktor Krum or Harry, for that matter) would 
object.

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Feb 13 07:35:06 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:35:06 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Severus Snape
Message-ID: <012f01c0958f$9202e8a0$863770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12139

Okay folks, finally, heres the Snape sketch.  I call it a sketch, but it
covers three yards of parchment.

Its hard to sum up this oft-discussed character without (a) filling
bandwidth, (b) repeating things we already know; but, hey, we couldnt leave
him out.  The first bit is general; the second a year by year account.

To mark the occasion, Ive also posted a picture of myself, Snapified by
the magic of e-surgery.  I know it makes me look more like a Backstreet Boy,
but give me a break: I actually look nothing like him.  View that here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%20Members/NeilAsSnap
e.jpg

Neil
____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)


THE NAKED SNAPE

Severus Snape, the Potions Master, is a thin man with sallow skin, a hooked
nose, and greasy, shoulder-length black hair.  His joyless lips sneer and,
when he does flash a wicked smile, it reveals uneven, discoloured teeth. He
is odious and irascible; vindictive sarcasm personified.  In short, this isn
t a have a nice day: missing you already kind of teacher.

Snapes lessons are held in a draughty dungeon and the walls of his office
are lined with shelves of glass jars containing all manner of revolting
things.  This netherworld retreat seems appropriate to someone who looms up
behind people and glides, sweeps and swoops around the school like a
malevolent bat.

Snape isnt too keen on people in general, but he reserves a very special
kind of hatred for Harry Potter.  There is clearly something painful to him
about having superhero Harry right under his big hooked nose.  In GoF he
says, To me, Potter, you are nothing but a nasty little boy who considers
rules to be beneath him, but there has to be more to it than that.  My pet
theory is that he resents Harry, because, as Dumbledore's protg, Harry has
pushed him into a lesser role and taken away his chance to prove himself.
Away from Dumbledore, Snape bursts with resentment towards Harry and anyone
and anything associated with him.

There is also the theory that Snape was in love with Lily Potter and tried
to persuade Voldemort to spare her life.  Since Harry has his mothers eyes,
he would be a constant reminder of Snapes unrequieted love.  However, this
theory is shaken by the fact that Snape was revealed as a double agent
before Lily was killed.  We are still left with the lesser possibility that
he was simply insanely jealous of James and that Harry has inherited that
resentment.

Snape is Head of Slytherin House. They say he always favours [the
Slytherins], says Ron, in PS/SS, we'll be able to see if it's true."  It
is true alright, and he is hardly subtle about it: he picks on the
Gryffindors mercilessly, whilst idly allowing the Slytherins get away with
murder.  His mild treatment of Draco Malfoy may indicate a desire to keep
Lucius sweet, but it could be simply loyalty to his House that leads him to
favour the Slytherin students.  Also, he knows that Draco is Harrys
nemesis, so it may be just one more way of getting at Potter.

Snape demonstrates great expertise in Potions, creating the Wolfsbane Potion
and Veritaserum, both of which are rare and difficult mixtures (not to
mention handy to the respective plotlines). In PS/SS, Percy Weasley says, of
him: He teaches Potions, but he doesn't want to - everyone knows he's after
Quirrell's job. Knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts, Snape."  After that
it becomes common knowledge that he always wanted the DADA job, but beyond
his assertion that only he knows how DADA should really be taught, there is
no solid evidence of it.  Snape thinks he knows best about most things, it
seems.


MY HEART BELONGS TO DADA

Year 1

"I've heard Snape can turn very nasty," Ron tells Harry, before their very
first Potions lesson. Snapes reputation precedes him and he more than lives
up to it, but not before making a cracking opening speech to the first year
Potions students:

I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly
simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids
that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the
 senses... he says, before declaring virtually all his past students
dunderheads.

By the end of that first lesson Harry has decided that Snape doesnt just
dislike him, he hates him.   Hagrid scoffs, unconvincingly, at this
suggestion - a clear confirmation that Snape does have reason to hate Harry.
Later still, Hagrid springs to Snapes defence again: Snape wouldn' try an'
kill a student! he asserts.  I repeat, Hagrid is hardly the yardstick of
common sense in such things.

Snape is prime suspect for most of PS/SS, but when Quirrell-Voldemort is
revealed as the real villain, and we all say a- haaaaah! were still left
with him as an embittered, nasty piece of work who detests Harry Potter.
Could we have we misjudged him?

Year 2

In Chamber of Secrets, Snape has a sporadic involvement in the plot.  He
comes up against the vainglorious Gilderoy Lockhart in the DADA post and
doesnt bother to hide his contempt for him.  He keeps a dutiful and
murderous eye on him, presumably under Dumbledores instructions.   He
seems surprised by the discovery, in the duelling scenes, that Harry speaks
Parseltongue, and appears to reappraise him, perhaps sensing that he has
some good Slytherin potential after all.

It seems we didnt misjudge him: he remains wholly unattractive and appears
to abhor almost everyone and tolerate most of the rest.   As usual, he is
critical of Dumbledore, but does his bidding with bad grace.  He spars with
McGonagall, mostly over Quidditch, but there seems to be mutual respect
between them as House Heads and they gang up on Lockhart to great effect.
In any crisis, Snape and McGonagall are usually first on the scene, like a
pet devil and angel on each of Dumbledores shoulders.

Year 3

Despite his misgivings about the appointment of Remus Lupin to the allegedly
coveted DADA position, Snape once again does exactly what Dumbledore tells
him.  He concocts the Wolfsbane Potion for Lupin and makes sure he takes it.
We find out that when they were at Hogwarts together, the Marauders -
including Lupin, Sirius Black and James Potter - played a trick on him, for
which he has never forgiven them. In his werewolf form, Lupin could have
killed Snape and Sirius had tricked him into following Lupin into the
Shrieking Shack.  James had stopped him from walking to his death, but, as
he tells Harry, viciously, he sees nothing heroic in getting cold feet.

Although Lupin was not in on this childhood joke, Snape thinks he has good
reason to bear a grudge against Lupin.  Lupin also makes a fool of him
during his first lesson on Boggarts, so, when Lupin is ill, he takes his
DADA class and seizes the chance for revenge, criticising every aspect of
Lupins work and making a transparent attempt to expose his secret.   Then
theres that wonderful scene with the Marauders Map: "Moony presents his
compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him to keep
his abnormally large nose out of other people's business."

Towards the end of PoA, Snape is obsessed with the desire to catch Sirius
Black.  He becomes unhinged and blind to reason when he finally confronts
Black, Lupin and our heroes; that is, until Harry, Ron and Hermione knock
him out with the power of three.  Later, he becomes hysterical when Harry
and Hermione rescue Buckbeak under everyones noses and get away with it.
(Foiled again! said Dick Dastardly).   By the close, his hatred of Harry
has reached new heights.

Year 4

In GoF, Snape comes across Alastor Moody, another old foe, in the DADA
position.  For once, the tables are turned: unlike the previous DADA
professors, who were the object of his contempt, Moody (actually Crouch)
takes the wind out of his sails. "Dumbledore happens to trust me, he
informs Moody, tartly.  Moody agrees that Dumbledore believes in giving
people second chances, but indicates that both he and Dumbledore are very
interested in anyone whos got it in for Harry.  Snape drops his superior
attitude and slides off.

Sirius tells Harry, Ron and Hermione: "Ever since I found out Snape was
teaching here, I've wondered why Dumbledore hired him. Snape's always been
fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school.  Slimy, oily,
greasy-haired kid, he was[he] knew more curses when he arrived at school
than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins
who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."

Despite this unpromising curriculum vita, Dumbledore clearly trusts Snape,
and he appears to do Dumbledores will, to the point that he accepts an
uncomfortable truce with Sirius Black, the person who nearly got him killed
years before: Very slowly - but still glaring at each other as though each
wished the other nothing but ill - Sirius and Snape moved toward each other
and shook hands.  They let go extremely quickly.

Later, when it becomes clear that Voldemort has risen again, Dumbledore says
to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do.  If you are ready . . . if
you are prepared ..."

I am, he says.


QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

(1) How does Snape really feel about Igor Karkaroff?  He seems to pity him,
but he is also angry at him (he did betray him in the courtroom  did Snape
know this?) .

(2) Does Lucius Malfoy have Snapes ear or another part of his body?

(3) What is Snapes task and why does Dumbledore have such a hold on him?

(4) How far can we stretch the Harry point of view thing?  Lets face it
Snape really is nasty and he really does have it in for Harry, but why was
Hagrid so convinced Snape would not harm a student?

(5) The old chestnut: Was Snape in love with Lily?  Are his feelings against
Harry rooted in jealousy of or rivalry with his father?  Was Snape Malfoy
to James Potters Harry?

(6) As Harry puts it: "I just want to know what Snape did with his first
chance, if hes on his second one."

(7) Is Snape a vampire or does JKR just use bat-like references to give
Severus a dank, dark aura?

(8) Does Sevvy want the DADA job?  Will he ever get it?  Why does Dumbledore
tolerate him? How does he feel about teaching? [already in discussion!]

(9) What else is in store for Snape in Book 5  anyone care to predict?







From vaile2000 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 08:16:32 2001
From: vaile2000 at hotmail.com (Tina Smart)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:16:32 +1100
Subject: Griffindor quidditch replacement member
Message-ID: <F262nwAFwzoonZUGQ5y0000b0df@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12140

I had this thought:

Maybe, even though she has shown no interest for it so far, Hermoine will 
join the team.

Who is it that she is visiting over the summer holidays? None but the famous 
seeker, Krum!
It might be something they do together while she visits. He might show her 
all the nifty tricks!

But then, they might just read books together ;)

Tina.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Tue Feb 13 12:07:27 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (mohuebner0 at lycos.de)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:07:27 -0000
Subject: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"
In-Reply-To: <96aaho+ifaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96b81v+f50g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12141

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:

> Question- Once Dumbledore puts a memory into the Pensieve does he 
no 
> longer have conscious recollection of it?

I think so. It looks to me as if the Pensieve was a means not only to
"sort" your memories, but also to get them out of your head. Maybe
those trials are rather disturbing memories for Dumbledore, and he
doesn't want to think about them right now. Who wouldn't like to
have a Pensieve once in a while...

Neil wrote:
> (6) Crouch says to Karkaroff: "you have been brought from Azkaban 
to 
> give evidence to the Ministry of Magic." So, was this dungeon at 
the 
> MoM?

Scott wrote:
> --That seems very likely. Does this mean that the Wizarding world 
> doesn't have an established court system...

I always thought that they didn't have an established court system.
Even if you send people to Azkaban without a trial under certain
circumstances like VWI, you should reconsider those cases once the
order is reestablished. But no one ever cared to do this, and we 
learned in GoF that Sirius was not the only one who was jailed without
a trial. This makes me believe that there might be other people still
in Azkaban who might be as innocent as him. Maybe not... 
Hagrid was sent to Azkaban in CoS without even giving him the chance
to speak for himself. I wondered if there was another place to lock
up people whose guilt wasn't yet proven. Azkaban seems to be a bit 
hard a punishment in such a case.

Monika




From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Tue Feb 13 13:12:51 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:12:51 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Sketch: Severus Snape
References: <012f01c0958f$9202e8a0$863770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <000401c095be$c20c8860$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12142

> Okay folks, finally, heres the Snape sketch.

Neil, I dont like you half as much as I did! You *sadist*, yesterday I was
checking my mail every ten minutes, waiting for the Snape summary, but it
DIDNT COME!
Oops, Neil, youre in the Moderator team, arent you? In that case, of
course I realize youre busy etc, just dont hold the preceding paragraph
against me! Pretty please :-P

> hey, we couldnt leave
> him out.

Of course you couldnt! Id cry my eyes out if you did!

> To mark the occasion, Ive also posted a picture of myself, Snapified by
> the magic of e-surgery.

The picture is charming. Perhaps a little too charming, but the colours are
proper  Snapes black and Slytherin green.

> THE NAKED SNAPE

Mmmeow, what a charming title...

> Severus Snape, the Potions Master, is a thin man with sallow skin, a
hooked
> nose, and greasy, shoulder-length black hair.  His joyless lips sneer
and,
> when he does flash a wicked smile, it reveals uneven, discoloured teeth.

Plus hes got fathomless black eyes that glitter with malice.

> He
> is odious and irascible; vindictive sarcasm personified.  In short, this
isn
> t a have a nice day: missing you already kind of teacher.

Im not so sure. At Hagrids Hut you can find the following description of
Snape:
<<Professor Snape is a very capable teacher who is well liked by the members
of his own house.  However, he seems to suffer from what we shall call an
image problem with regard to the rest of our students.  Sadly, Professor
Snape does not seem interested in correcting this problem.>>
(http://www.hagridshut.com/myworld/hogwarts/faculty/snape.htm)
This is one of my favourite quotations about Severus.

> <snip>  This netherworld retreat seems appropriate to someone who looms up
> behind people and glides, sweeps and swoops around the school like a
> malevolent bat.

Funny how often people dont hear Snape approaching. I guess he walks like a
cat.

> <snip>  My pet
> theory is that he resents Harry, because, as Dumbledore's protg, Harry
has
> pushed him into a lesser role and taken away his chance to prove himself.
> Away from Dumbledore, Snape bursts with resentment towards Harry and
anyone
> and anything associated with him.

Funny how almost everybody seems to have his or her pet theory about Snape.
My theory is that Snape hates Harry because of James, and because Harry
always manages to escape due punishment. Besides, it must be a horror, to
try and protect a student who gets from trouble to big trouble as if he
wanted to commit a spectacular suicide.

> There is also the theory that Snape was in love with Lily Potter <snip>

I dont buy this theory. Nothing to support my opinion, its just too much
of Jane Austin for me.

> Snape was revealed as a double agent
> before Lily was killed.

Yeah, he came back to the Good Side about the time Harry was born. I dont
think theres any connection between the two facts.

> We are still left with the lesser possibility that
> he was simply insanely jealous of James and that Harry has inherited that
> resentment.

Another of my pet theories is that Snape hates James so much because Potter
saw him panic during the joke incident. My Snape is proud as devil, and
therefore he hates everybody who witnessed his rare moments of weakness. I
am thinking of a fic about that, but the level of my English seems to be too
low for that.

> Snape demonstrates great expertise in Potions,

Hes not called Potions master for compliments sake, after all.
And, BTW, *why* is Snape called master?  Does it mean that hed been a
Potions apprentice once, later a journeyman, and then he became master? Or
is the master simply a traditional title of Potions teacher at Hogwarts
and means practically nothing?

> <snip> After that
> it becomes common knowledge that he always wanted the DADA job <snip>
there is
> no solid evidence of it.

In fact, from what Hagrid says, Snape didnt even bother to apply for the
job before Lockhart got the post, because Gilderoy was the ony candidate

> Snape thinks he knows best about most things, it
> seems.

Yeah, besides filling in as DADA teacher, hes filling in as a Quidditch
referee, hes the more effective of two teachers who were showing students
how to duel; and for most of the time hes the only teacher at school who
can conjure a Death Mark ;-) thats enough to think that his high opinion of
himself is not completely baseless.

> In any crisis, Snape and McGonagall are usually first on the scene, like a
> pet devil and angel on each of Dumbledores shoulders.

Wow, thats great statement! Im sooo impressed!

> Year 4

<snip>
Neil, how could you! You didnt even mention that Snape showed Fudge hid
Death Mark!  The bravest thing the guy has ever done except  leaving
Voldemort and you say nothing about this? But thats what I love Snape for!


> (1) How does Snape really feel about Igor Karkaroff?  He seems to pity
him,
> but he is also angry at him (he did betray him in the courtroom  did
Snape
> know this?) .

Pity Karkaroff? I formed an impression that he was doing his best to avoid
this guy and in both their conversations Snape seems to be telling Karkaroff
to shut up and go away.

> (2) Does Lucius Malfoy have Snapes ear or another part of his body?

I said that once, but its a nice occasion to repeat it: in canon,  Lucius
Malfoy and Snape never meet, and they are mentioned together only once, when
Draco says in CoS: Ill tell him {his father} that you are the best
teacher, Professor Does it mean that for two years Draco didnt bother to
talk with his father about his head of House?

> (3) What is Snapes task and why does Dumbledore have such a hold on him?

Id rather not think about the first thing, but when it comes to Dumbledore,
Im dumb  logically, Snape should hate him as much as he hates James
Potter, Black and Lupin. After all, it was Dumbledore who accepted the
werewolf to Hogwarts in the first place, Dumbledore who didnt kick the
Marauders out of school, Dumbledore who  made Snape hold his tongue about
Lupins werewolfism (most likely by telling Snape that hed be expelled if
he started talking). Why does Severus stil listen to such a guy?

<snip>
> (6) As Harry puts it: "I just want to know what Snape did with his first
> chance, if hes on his second one."

His first chance for being an honest and respectable member of the wizarding
community vanished when he joined Death Eaters, didnt it?

> (7) Is Snape a vampire or does JKR just use bat-like references to give
> Severus a dank, dark aura?

I dont like the vampire theory, Im too much used to ideas of vampires
created by Anne Rice (and the White Wolfs RPG about Rices creatures:
Vampire: the Masquerade and others books)

> (8) Does Sevvy want the DADA job?

As I said, I dont think so.

> Will he ever get it?

Hed have to ask for it first, and Dumbledore would have to find somebody to
teach Potions.

> Why does Dumbledore
> tolerate him?

Perhaps Snape has *proven* himself to Dumbledore. I mean that perhaps hes
trusted not because hes believed to be trustworthy, but because Dumbledore
knows for certain that Snape wont betray him.

> How does he feel about teaching? [already in discussion!]

For me, he doesnt like it much. Perhaps he likes being Head of Slytherin
more.

> (9) What else is in store for Snape in Book 5  anyone care to predict?

Ahh... the fifth book will be called Harry Potter and the Order of Phoenix
just because the more appropriate title, Severus Snape and the Order of
Phoenix would have caused confusion. Itll be a 1800 pages long, delightful
story, mostly told from Snapes point of view, and the readers will learn a
lot about Snapes past. Severus will turn much more complex and fascinating
person that we Snapefans dare to dream of and he will conquer Voldemort
without anybodys help ;-).
Seriously, Im afraid that we wont learn much about Severus until book
seven. But I hope to find out what his mysterious task was a bit earlier.

Monika Z.
(the Snape fan)





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Feb 13 13:39:48 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:39:48 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Severus Snape
In-Reply-To: <000401c095be$c20c8860$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <96bdf4+c831@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12143

Monika said:

<<Neil, I don't like you half as much as I did! You *sadist*, 
yesterday I was checking my mail every ten minutes, waiting for the 
Snape summary, but it DIDN'T COME!>>

I admit that my scheduling was off-kilter and that this task took 
longer than I had anticipated, but my main thought was, of 
course, "torture Monika at all costs".  

Monika also said:

<<The picture is charming. Perhaps a little too charming, but the 
colours are proper ? Snape's black and Slytherin green.>>

I'm glad my natural charm shone through that cunning disguise <g>

****

I said: 

<Snape demonstrates great expertise in Potions">

Monika commented:

<<He's not called "Potions master" for compliment's sake, after all. 
And, BTW, *why* is Snape called "master"?>>

In the UK, `Master' is another name for a male teacher, but I 
wouldn't deny that Snape is also a master of his art.  I'm sure JKR 
intended the double meaning when she titled that chapter.

Monika cried:

<<Neil, how could you! You didn't even mention that Snape showed 
Fudge hi(s) Death Mark!  The bravest thing the guy has ever done 
except  leaving Voldemort and you say nothing about this? But that's 
what I love Snape for!>>

Well, I had to leave something for you to say, didn't I?  ;-)

Thanks for your thoughts, Monika.  You are the one true Snape fan 
(apart from the several thousand others).

Neil
flying_ford_anglia






From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Tue Feb 13 13:47:30 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 13 Feb 2001 05:47:30 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Grownup Conversation (was SHIP: The Hermione problem and other things)
Message-ID: <20010213134730.16616.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12144

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010213/73e5e891/attachment.ksh>

From editor at texas.net  Tue Feb 13 13:52:53 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:52:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Sketch: Severus Snape
References: <012f01c0958f$9202e8a0$863770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <3A893C34.E5B22393@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12145

Settle back, get some popcorn, they profiled my Favorite Character!

Neil Ward wrote:

> THE NAKED SNAPE

Be honest. You've been simply *dying* to use this title. Any other reason for doing a Snape summary (other than placating me) is fluff. You can tell us; we're your friends....

> There is also the theory that Snape was in love with Lily Potter and tried
> to persuade Voldemort to spare her life.  Since Harry has his mothers eyes,
> he would be a constant reminder of Snapes unrequieted love.  However, this
> theory is shaken by the fact that Snape was revealed as a double agent
> before Lily was killed.  We are still left with the lesser possibility that
> he was simply insanely jealous of James and that Harry has inherited that
> resentment.

I still think it's both, which partly explains the complexity of the character. He is reminded of *both* Lily and James when he sees Harry, and immediately several associations are
there--

Love (Lily)
Pain (Lily)
Humiliation (Lily turning him down or never knowing, the horrible possibility that she told James about it)
Anger (James in general)
Isolation [esp. when seeing Harry in company with Ron & Hermione] (James & the Marauders, outgroup/onlooker thing)
The whole approach/avoidance of wanting to protect Lily's son, and anger at him for being the reason she died
Resentment that Harry has edged Snape out somehow in Dumbledore's mind (hadn't thought of this one)

This is the reason I'm so intrigued by the end of book 4, and Snape's "unreadable" expression--I think this is the very, very first time in the whole series that Snape has even
begun to consider Harry as a person in his own right, rather than viewed through this shifting lens of associations.

> Snape is Head of Slytherin House. They say he always favours [the
> Slytherins], says Ron, in PS/SS, we'll be able to see if it's true."  It
> is true alright, and he is hardly subtle about it: he picks on the
> Gryffindors mercilessly, whilst idly allowing the Slytherins get away with
> murder.  His mild treatment of Draco Malfoy may indicate a desire to keep
> Lucius sweet, but it could be simply loyalty to his House that leads him to
> favour the Slytherin students.  Also, he knows that Draco is Harrys
> nemesis, so it may be just one more way of getting at Potter.

Again, probably all of the above, in varying percentages depending on the given day. And I think there's a bit of projection going on, too--Snape's giving Draco the advantages *he*
never got. I believe Snape sees the Marauders in Harry, Ron, & Hermione, so he's trying to make it hard on them, since he probably believes the original Marauders got everything
handed to them on a platter.

> Year 1
>
> I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly
> simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids
> that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the
>  senses... he says, before declaring virtually all his past students
> dunderheads.

Sigh. Poetry. And in my sappy, romantic opinion, he keeps a damn good lid on it most of the time, since the only other time he let anyone see it (Lily) it wasn't good enough.

> I repeat, Hagrid is hardly the yardstick of common sense in such things.

This line gave me a fit of the giggles. I want to translate it into Latin and make it the motto of something.

> Year 2
>
> seems surprised by the discovery, in the duelling scenes, that Harry speaks
> Parseltongue, and appears to reappraise him, perhaps sensing that he has
> some good Slytherin potential after all.

Or perhaps sensing that Voldemort connection that Dumbledore implied; after all, he spent a bit of time with the other speaker of Parseltongue.

> there seems to be mutual respect between them as House Heads and they gang up on Lockhart to great effect.

Wonderful scene. And the first instance of any sort of sense of humor from Snape, too, that I recall. I still love the way the other professors jumped right on the bandwagon.

> In any crisis, Snape and McGonagall are usually first on the scene, like a
> pet devil and angel on each of Dumbledores shoulders.

Which is interesting. McGonagall is Deputy Headmistress, she *should* be there like that, but Snape is just (just!) a head of House (meaning he, so far as we know, has no
Hogwarts-wide duties beyond teaching). Why should it be Snape? Why not Professor Flitwick or Professor Sprout on occasion? This is another teaser, to me, that there's more to Snape
than meets the eye.

> Year 3
>
> James had stopped him from walking to his death, but, as
> he tells Harry, viciously, he sees nothing heroic in getting cold feet.

However, Snape cannot have missed, while eavesdropping in the Shrieking Shack, that James was not "in" on the joke. Thus, James didn't really get cold feet, he honestly didn't know
and acted to stop it when he found out. Snape is not the sort to accept any sort of attitude-altering information gracefully, but internally, he might have adjusted things a bit. I
can't put a finger on it, but it might have been a start towards re-examining old associations, that helped him be able to see Harry for himself later.

I'd also like to know when Dumbledore filled Snape in on the actualities of the whole Pettigrew/Sirius thing. Snape was out cold for all the real revelations, and at the end of book
3 still honestly believed that Sirius was a dangerous murderer, yet when Dumbledore has Sirius transform and they shake hands in book 4, Snape doesn't react to Sirius as a criminal,
just as someone he hates.

> theres that wonderful scene with the Marauders Map: "Moony presents his
> compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him to keep
> his abnormally large nose out of other people's business."

And I *still* would like to know if Snape knew the Marauder's nicknames, i.e., if he knew who was talking to him. If he did, it seems he'd be more specific in his questions to Lupin
and less bamboozle-able in the way Lupin swept everyone out of his office. If he didn't, why would he ask Lupin that question about the manufacturers? Very odd scene.

> Towards the end of PoA, Snape is obsessed with the desire to catch Sirius
> Black.  He becomes unhinged and blind to reason when he finally confronts
> Black, Lupin and our heroes; that is, until Harry, Ron and Hermione knock
> him out with the power of three.  Later, he becomes hysterical when Harry
> and Hermione rescue Buckbeak under everyones noses and get away with it.
> (Foiled again! said Dick Dastardly).   By the close, his hatred of Harry
> has reached new heights.

Here I think Snape was totally taken over by the associations from the past, to the point of being unable to process any new information, not wanting to process any new information.
Augmented, I think, by a quite justifiable (if you look strictly from his point of view and the information he had) resentment that the kids he was saving were not only not
grateful, but fought against him [this could have past associations, too, if he *was* the spy that tipped Dumbledore off and warned James].

> QUESTIONS/COMMENTS
>
> (1) How does Snape really feel about Igor Karkaroff?  He seems to pity him,
> but he is also angry at him (he did betray him in the courtroom  did Snape
> know this?) .

I think he's another mental association for Snape--he's a reminder of a time Snape would rather forget, on several levels--when he was a Death Eater, when he was a spy (and
presumably under some stress), maybe when Lily died, the whole trial thing, etc.

> (2) Does Lucius Malfoy have Snapes ear or another part of his body?

Get OVER it. <g>

> (3) What is Snapes task and why does Dumbledore have such a hold on him?

I think Snape's going to go back and manage to convince Voldemort that he [Snape] has been making nice and fooling everyone in order to be in an advantageous position to help
Voldemort when the need arose. Voldemort being the cushy, forgiving person we know and love, this might be a painful conversation for Snape in more ways than one.

I don't think Snape's worried about the physical pain, though; he has to have the strength of mind to hold up under whatever truth spell Voldemort might cast. AND if he loved Lily,
he has to betray her by telling Voldemort that he's decided that her death wasn't such a big deal, after all. AND he has to put himself in the terrible position of having the power
to really cut loose and turn bad again--sort of like a recovered alcoholic taking a job in a liquor store, you know? Any one of these factors is pretty serious by itself, much less
a combination.

> (4) How far can we stretch the Harry point of view thing?  Lets face it
> Snape really is nasty and he really does have it in for Harry, but why was
> Hagrid so convinced Snape would not harm a student?

No question, Snape really is nasty. I think we can absolutely trust Harry's point of view on this. I think that it's interesting the way the interactions with Snape have gotten
multi-layered as Harry matures and learns more, even if Harry-the-character is not aware of it. JKR's writing skill again.

I think Hagrid is so certain simply because Dumbledore is certain, and for Hagrid, that's enough and more. We, as readers, may be doubting Dumbledore's infallibility, but Hagrid
never does; it's a cornerstone of his world. I don't think Hagrid knows any of the specifics of why Snape turned spy and why Dumbledore trusts him. He doesn't have to know why. It's
enough that Dumbledore says so.

> (5) The old chestnut: Was Snape in love with Lily?  Are his feelings against
> Harry rooted in jealousy of or rivalry with his father?  Was Snape Malfoy
> to James Potters Harry?

Yes, yes, yes. Yadda, yadda. I think there's wildly conflicting past associations going on, as elaborated ad nauseam above.

> (6) As Harry puts it: "I just want to know what Snape did with his first
> chance, if hes on his second one."

Ooooh, yes.

> (7) Is Snape a vampire or does JKR just use bat-like references to give
> Severus a dank, dark aura?

The latter. She's deliberately chosen adjectives for Snape all through that have "icky" connotations, when less icky words would adequately convey the descriptive content.

> (8) Does Sevvy want the DADA job?

I don't think so. He loves potions. And I mistrust anything that has been so carefully, over several books, woven in to our "common knowledge" so thoroughly. Here's JKR, saying,
here, stand on this little rug. Why am I holding the edge of the rug? Oh, never mind....

> (9) What else is in store for Snape in Book 5  anyone care to predict?

Well, I think we'll get more information on Snape's past, and thus his current motives. I think he's likely to die, eventually. But I think there will be a clarification, for lack
of a better word, in his perceptions. I think he will come to see Harry as his own person and respect him for who he is, and possibly vice versa. I *don't* see him and Harry walking
away into the sunset with fishing poles over their shoulders (cue Andy Griffith music). They will never like each other, but I think they will arrive at mutual respect, based
finally on actual personality and not past associations (because Snape's got some past-associations for Harry, too).

One last note: I will say that the recent post (don't remember who, sorry) saying that Snape is the way he is just because JKR needed him that way, had a point. I think Snape
started out being modeled on a horrible teacher she had (didn't she say?). But I also know that once written, characters take on a life of their own, and whether JKR has thought all
the detail out the way we have, Snape has definitely evolved past a stereotype. He might be at a point where the character is prominent enough in the plot for JKR to *have* to
address his "issues." There's a point where you, as an author, can't say "just because" without it being dea ex machina. So I expect we'll get lots more information on Snape.

--Amanda




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Tue Feb 13 15:07:16 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:07:16 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve"
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDEB@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 12146



** > (4) Bagman is described as "muscly".  This is not a word.  
** Could this be evidence that JKR did indeed write the 
** infamous wand order revision, using that non-word "untidy-haired"?

Just to jump in here with a short note... muscly is a word.  It is the
adjective form of muscle.  It's in the big ol' dictionary I keep right here
on my desk. :)

As for untidy-haired, I think that's as appropriate as any descriptive word
placed with 'haired' like black-haired or curly-haired.  Not that you
couldn't say something like 'the boy with constantly untidy hair' as easily
as 'the untidy-haired boy,' but the latter is more succinct.  Basically I'm
saying that it doesn't bother me, per se.

Mer



From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Tue Feb 13 14:23:29 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:23:29 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Neil as Summary writer (was: Character Sketch: Severus Snape)
References: <96bdf4+c831@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c095c8$95312e40$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12147

>I admit that my scheduling was off-kilter and that this task took
>longer than I had anticipated, but my main thought was, of
>course, "torture Monika at all costs".

Thanks, Neil, it's so nice to know that I've got a real friend in the
Moderator team :-)
Anyway, it was a good summary. Perhaps mostly because the subject's so
fascinating ;-)

> You are the one true Snape fan
> (apart from the several thousand others).

Your kindness is as great as your charm, o Great Snape Summarizer
(Sketcher)!

Monika Z.
(The Snape fan)




From rgoertz at austin.rr.com  Tue Feb 13 15:39:20 2001
From: rgoertz at austin.rr.com (rgoertz at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:39:20 -0000
Subject: New figures from Mattel
Message-ID: <96bkf8+68h7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12148

Hi folks,

  Here are pictures from the upcoming figures from Mattel.

Cheers,

Ryan

http://www.action-figure.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=137




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 15:39:58 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:39:58 -0000
Subject: James's house - curiosity - Snape - owls - SHIP
Message-ID: <96bkge+noqn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12149

Star wrote:

>I don't think that they would have been in Hufflepuff nor Ravenclaw

Why not?  

This is the big question.  Slytherin would be very interesting, but I 
think it's very, very unlikely that James was a Slytherin because 
Hagrid wouldn't have bashed Slytherin to Harry without adding "of 
course, your dad was the exception."

The best evidence I know is JKR's added "of course" when asked Lily's 
house.  If Lily-the-Gryffindor was an "of course," presumably James 
was too.  Sirius and Remus are still up in the air though.  They 
could've been in H or R.

BTW, how does everyone know Hagrid was a Gryffindor?  Is it from the 
same interview, or is it in the books?

Neil wrote (*terrific* summary and Snape bio, Neil!):

> (2) "Curiosity is not a sin ... but we should exercise caution with
our
> curiosity," says message-of-the-day-Dumbledore.  Would Harry find
> something he didn't want to know if he dug too deeply?

(a) probably.  The place is swarming with unpleasant secrets about 
Harry, so no doubt there are more in store for him/us.

(b) Bertha Jorkins and her 'satiable curiosity is one of the people on 
Dumbledore's mind, so he's thinking about how curiosity can literally 
get you killed.

For his part, Harry doesn't pry into who's kissing whom behind the 
greenhouse, but his inability to resist investigating mysteries has 
certainly come close to getting him killed before now.  So I'd be 
worried about him if I were AD.

Neil also wrote:

>Snape was revealed as a double agent before Lily was killed. 

How do we know this?  

IF Snape is the spy who told Dumbledore that V was going after the 
Potters--favored theory of many--then he was probably in V's pay until 
after (or immediately before) they died.  This isn't a sure thing, 
because V might have been plotting against them for a long time before 
Halloween '81.  But it seems likely to me.

>(4) How far can we stretch the Harry `point of view' thing?  Let's 
>face it Snape really is nasty and he really does have it in for 
>Harry, but why was Hagrid so convinced Snape would not harm a 
>student?

I think Hagrid is damning Snape with faint praise here.  It doesn't 
exactly show deep trust in a teacher to assert that he wouldn't kill a 
student.

>(6) As Harry puts it: "I just want to know what Snape did with his 
>first chance, if he's on his second one."

Oh, you know--levitated Muggle children, killed a few people, that 
sort of thing.  When Harry makes this comment he doesn't know Snape 
was a DE.  Now, he knows, we know, and so the question is answered.

Monika Z wrote:

>Another of my pet theories is that Snape hates James so much because 
>Potter saw him panic during the "joke" incident.

Cassie has a *great* take on this incident in Draco Sinister (with 
echoes down to the Harry/Draco relationship).  Plug, plug, no shame 
because I didn't write it.

Re: NeilasSnape pic:  Alan Rickman, move over!  We have our Snape!  
(Except:  do you really think Snape wears glasses, or is that just 
you?)

Catlady wrote to Meredith:

>Having noticed your edress, were you planning to follow an owl to 
>Sirius in a light plane?

Meredith, you could offer this service...I bet Carole would pay real 
money for a plane ride to Sirius's hideout. <bg>

Mo wrote:

>However, the R/H types of various ages with varying 
>levels of education will continue to argue that there is no H/H 
subtext. <vbg>

This R/H type (32 years old with too many degrees) admits to seeing a 
very, very subtle H/H subtext.  Very subtle.  Almost nonexistent.

Amy Z, D.W.P. (Doctor of Wizard Psychology)
a.k.a. "Ron's therapist"

------------------------------------------------------
"Wow!" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest 
dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a 
storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it 
gain by a giant sea monster.
                       --HP and the Goblet of Fire
------------------------------------------------------




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Feb 13 15:41:49 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:41:49 -0000
Subject: Griffindor quidditch replacement member
In-Reply-To: <F262nwAFwzoonZUGQ5y0000b0df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96bkjt+fe1b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12150

 "Tina Smart" wrote:
> I had this thought:
> 
> Maybe, even though she has shown no interest for it so far, Hermoine 
will 
> join the team.
> 
> Who is it that she is visiting over the summer holidays? None but 
the famous 
> seeker, Krum!
> It might be something they do together while she visits. He might 
show her 
> all the nifty tricks!
> 
> But then, they might just read books together ;)
> 
> Tina.

The only way I can see Hermione joining the Quidditch team is as the 
coach. Hermione would probably read every book on Quidditch strategy 
and would spend her coaching time regurgitating what she has read. How 
effective she would be is questionable, since she has no hands-on 
experience. 

Disclaimer: This might sound anti-Hermione but it only follows her 
Canon modus operandi.

:-)Milz




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 15:42:22 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:42:22 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Marauders' Map
Message-ID: <96bkku+u32b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12151

Amanda wrote:

>And I *still* would like to know if Snape knew the Marauder's 
nicknames, i.e.,
>if he knew who was talking to him. If he did, it seems he'd be more 
specific in
>his questions to Lupin and less bamboozle-able in the way Lupin swept 
everyone out of his office. If
>he didn't, why would he ask Lupin that question about the 
manufacturers? Very
>odd scene.

I wondered about this for a long time--wrote a whole post asking about 
it--thought I figured it out while writing so didn't send 
post--wondered some more.

Here's what I've decided:

-Snape does know that Moony is Lupin's nickname.  Maybe he knows the 
others, maybe not.
   Evidence:  why else does he make that "direct from the 
manufacturers" comment?  He thinks Harry got the map from Lupin, or 
from his dad, or something.

-Snape doesn't come right out and accuse Lupin of making the map in 
front of Harry, instead using veiled language, because he doesn't want 
Harry to know the whole dynamic.  Professors might hate each other and 
show it, but they still don't have it out right in front of students.

-Lupin plays dumb ("looks like a Zonko product to me"), but Snape 
knows he made the map, and Lupin knows he knows, and Snape knows he 
knows he knows.

One other thing about the map:  It seems likely from the end of GoF 
(when Crouch Jr. talks about it) that Dumbledore doesn't know it 
exists.  Maybe Snape should've told him, hmmm?  Why do you suppose he 
didn't, either after the events of PA or after "The Egg and the Eye"? 
 
>Here's JKR, saying, here, stand on this little rug. Why am I holding 
the edge of the rug? Oh, never
>mind....

ROFL!  (or rather, falling with a painful crash to the floor 
laughing!)

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
  "Cool, sir!" said Dean Thomas in amazement.
  "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin.
                -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From nykteris at polbox.com  Tue Feb 13 15:43:28 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:43:28 +0100
Subject: Odp: [HPforGrownups] Character Sketch: Severus Snape/Severus as a teacher 
References: <012f01c0958f$9202e8a0$863770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <001f01c095d3$d3a025e0$7d604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 12152


> (3) What is Snapes task and why does Dumbledore have such a hold on him?

IMO Snape was Dumbledore's spy and *he* informed D. that Voldemort was after
the Potters. And now Voldemort wants Snape's death (GoF chap.33: "we have
six missing Death Eaters... One who I believe has left me for ever... he
will be killed").
BTW (please, ignore this, if you discussed the topic, I'm still *in* the
archives) why Voldemort wanted James' (so young man, probably not very
powerful wizard yet)  and Harry's (and not Lily's) death?

> (4) why was Hagrid so convinced Snape would not harm a student?
Well, Hagrid trusts Dumbledore, Dumbledore trusts Snape, so Hagrid trusts
Snape. Pure logic, isn't it;-)))?

> (8) Does Sevvy want the DADA job?  Will he ever get it?
I'm sure he'll get the DADA job - but - I dare predict - in the 7th book...
Poor Snape have to wait...

Snape as a teacher? IMO he thought (or better: *hoped*) that his students
weren't *that* stupid. If he thought about them as about "dunderheads", he
wouldn't
want them to write an essay on werewolves. But, when nobody guessed (ok,
Hermiony guessed...), he revealed Lupin's secret in more direct way.

Next question - 10 (?)
I still don't exactly understand Black&Snape's relationship. There must be
sth more in it, don't you think so?

Katarzyna













-------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ----------------------
Szybciej sciagaj zagraniczne WWW! Numer dostepowy IDS: 0209274
w godz. 18.00-7.30. Sprawdz: www.dial-up.ids.pl/?id=st
--------------------------------------------------------------






From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 13 15:32:17 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:32:17 -0600
Subject: MoM Court System (was Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve")
References: <96b81v+f50g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A895381.367E9C6A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12153

Hi --

mohuebner0 at lycos.de wrote:

> Neil wrote:
> > (6) Crouch says to Karkaroff: "you have been brought from Azkaban to
>
> > give evidence to the Ministry of Magic." So, was this dungeon at the
>
> > MoM?
>
> Scott wrote:
> > --That seems very likely. Does this mean that the Wizarding world
> > doesn't have an established court system...
>
> I always thought that they didn't have an established court system.
> Even if you send people to Azkaban without a trial under certain
> circumstances like VWI, you should reconsider those cases once the
> order is reestablished. But no one ever cared to do this, and we
> learned in GoF that Sirius was not the only one who was jailed without
>
> a trial.

I don't think that extreme police action measures in times of war
necessarily means that there is no established judicial system in a
given society.  I do see your point that the wizarding system should
have revisited imprisonment cases instituted during the time of crisis,
once the crisis was passed.  But, I still don't think it precludes them
from having an established system.  The next chapter of ASA has alot to
say on this (there I go again!  Another shameless plug ...).

My feeling was that the courtroom was in this "dungeon" area of the
MoM.  They aren't just taking statements as part of an investigation.
Bagman and Crouch Jr. were clearly "on trial" so to speak.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 15:44:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:44:33 -0000
Subject: OT: Weird Names
In-Reply-To: <007801c09542$e35bd380$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <96bkp1+hvth@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12154

Becca contributed:

>Speaking of weird names...I knew a girl named Asshole pronounced 
ASH-ho-lay.

A few years back, there was a very funny Sat. Night Live sketch (rare 
event! alert the press!) where Nicolas Cage and Julia Sweeney played a 
couple who were trying to choose a name for their unborn son.  She 
keeps suggesting really simple names, names no one could possibly 
object to--John, James, Tom--and he keeps shooting them down because 
of some far-fetched way he imagines other kids could make fun of them. 
 He's getting totally worked up.  Then all is explained:  a delivery 
guy comes to the door with a package for "Asswipe Johnson."  "It's 
Ahz-wi-pay!" Nicolas insists.

So be warned, parents:  choose well, lest you scar your kid for life.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------
"Flint nearly kills the Gryffindor Seeker,
which could happen to anyone, I'm sure..."
	    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
--------------------------------------------




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 13 15:46:27 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:46:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: DRACO DOLLS! (was New figures from Mattel)
In-Reply-To: <96bkf8+68h7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010213154627.69203.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12155


--- rgoertz at austin.rr.com wrote:
> Here are pictures from the upcoming figures from 
> Mattel.
<a
href="http://www.action-figure.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=137">

They made Draco Dolls! Finally! (for those of you who
are new to the list, in the fall, there was an ongoing
discussion about why Warner Bros was seemingly
unwilling to put Draco on anything (they put Scabbers
on things, and he's much more evil, in the Mass
Murdering sense, than Draco! (to say nothing of those
bizarre WB shirts that say Voldemort! ("Yes, I want a
t shirt for my child with the name of a serial killer
on it! Here's my charge card!"))) - there's a card for
him in the Mystery @ Hogwarts game, but it's a
silhouette, and he's nowhere in the calenders (they
don't even have a slytherin bumper sticker, although I
do now have rings for each house).


(I really like these playsets. I'm going to buy them
(FOR HARRY (my son, he's 18 months old)) and put them
in a closet until he's about 5 & old enough to play
with them. 

=====
heidi tandy

What Maureen Dowd thinks David Souter was thinking on Monday, December 11, 2000: I know the Bushes are furious at me. That'll teach 'em to assume that a guy living like a monk in an isolated New Hampshire farmhouse is some kind of Live Free or Die nut.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Feb 13 15:56:59 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:56:59 -0000
Subject: James's house - curiosity - Snape - owls - SHIP
In-Reply-To: <96bkge+noqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96blgb+cqge@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12156

"Amy Z"  wrote:

> BTW, how does everyone know Hagrid was a Gryffindor?  Is it from the 
> same interview, or is it in the books?

I think it was revealed in the Scholastic Books interview. Rowling 
affirmed that Hagrid was in Gryffindor and Voldemort slandered Hagrid 
with rumors of raising werewolf pups and the like.

I'm pretty sure the rumors that Hagrid was in Hufflepuff came from 
that vague paragraph in SS/PS where Hagrid tells Harry that everyone 
thinks Hufflepuff is full of duffers. While that paragraph doesn't 
state Hagrid was a Hufflepuff it gives the impression he was.

:-)Milz




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 16:02:22 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:02:22 -0000
Subject: DRACO DOLLS! (was New figures from Mattel)
In-Reply-To: <20010213154627.69203.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96blqe+74dr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12157

Action figures, action figures, Heidi--everyone knows U.S. boys won't 
play with "dolls."

What's the cute stegosaurus thing supposed to be?  Norbert, I presume?

I think they're goofy in the extreme, but I hope your Harry enjoys 
them!

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------
  "Ha, ha, ha," said Hermione sarcastically.  "Goblins 
don't need protection.  Haven't you been listening to 
what Professor Binns has been telling us about goblin 
rebellions?"
  "No," said Harry and Ron together.
                          --HP and the Goblet of Fire 
-------------------------------------------------------




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Feb 13 16:07:36 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:07:36 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Marauders' Map
In-Reply-To: <96bkku+u32b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96bm48+108s7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12158

"Amy Z"  wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> 
> >And I *still* would like to know if Snape knew the Marauder's 
> nicknames, i.e.,
> >if he knew who was talking to him. If he did, it seems he'd be more 
> specific in
> >his questions to Lupin and less bamboozle-able in the way Lupin 
swept 
> everyone out of his office. If
> >he didn't, why would he ask Lupin that question about the 
> manufacturers? Very
> >odd scene.
> 
> I wondered about this for a long time--wrote a whole post asking 
about 
> it--thought I figured it out while writing so didn't send 
> post--wondered some more.
> 
> Here's what I've decided:
> 
> -Snape does know that Moony is Lupin's nickname.  Maybe he knows the 
> others, maybe not.
>    Evidence:  why else does he make that "direct from the 
> manufacturers" comment?  He thinks Harry got the map from Lupin, or 
> from his dad, or something.
> 
> -Snape doesn't come right out and accuse Lupin of making the map in 
> front of Harry, instead using veiled language, because he doesn't 
want 
> Harry to know the whole dynamic.  Professors might hate each other 
and 
> show it, but they still don't have it out right in front of 
students.
> 
> -Lupin plays dumb ("looks like a Zonko product to me"), but Snape 
> knows he made the map, and Lupin knows he knows, and Snape knows he 
> knows he knows.
> 
> One other thing about the map:  It seems likely from the end of GoF 
> (when Crouch Jr. talks about it) that Dumbledore doesn't know it 
> exists.  Maybe Snape should've told him, hmmm?  Why do you suppose 
he 
> didn't, either after the events of PA or after "The Egg and the 
Eye"? 
>  
> >Here's JKR, saying, here, stand on this little rug. Why am I 
holding 
> the edge of the rug? Oh, never
> >mind....
> 
> ROFL!  (or rather, falling with a painful crash to the floor 
> laughing!)
> 
> Amy Z

I think Snape knows EXACTLY who Moony, Prongs, Padfoot and Wormtail 
were! Notice he summoned Lupin into his office. I think Snape was 
trying to get Harry to tell him that Lupin gave him the map in order 
to implicate Lupin in some sort of Sirius Black conspiracy and 
discredit Lupin. 

:-)Milz





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 16:14:04 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:14:04 -0000
Subject: Another WW2 parallel
In-Reply-To: <966qui+jf8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96bmgc+56mk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12159

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dai Evans" <dwe199 at s...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> > Just seems so 
> > ironic that Vold (and S. Slyth.) are so against mixed-blood, 
etc., 
> > and this is exactly what Vold is.  I'm really curious about his 
> > mother (as well as James' and Lily's parents)...
> 
> I have a feeling that one of Hitlers parents or grandparents were 
> Jewish. I can't remember where I heard this, but if it's true it 
does 
> add another brick to the WW2 parallel wall.
> 
> 
His father was a half Jew. According to Alice Miller "In her youth, 
his paternal grandmother had been employed in a Jewish merchant's 
household in Graz. After her return home to the Austrian village of 
Braunau, she gave birth to a son, Alois, later to become Hitler's 
father, and received child-support payments from the family in Graz 
for fourteen years." (Paths of Life, p. 159) Miller goes on to 
explain the effect this connection had for Alois and for Adolf. 

BTW, I seem to remember someone (an Amy?) saying they would like to 
understand how Hitler became Hitler. You might want to read Alice 
Miller's answer to this question. I think, but I'm not sure, that her 
essay on Hitler is in "For Your Own Good: The Roots of Violence in 
Child-rearing". 

Naama




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Feb 13 16:21:18 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:21:18 -0000
Subject: New figures from Mattel
In-Reply-To: <96bkf8+68h7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96bmtu+ci3g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12160

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rgoertz at a... wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
>   Here are pictures from the upcoming figures from Mattel.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ryan
> 
> http://www.action-figure.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=137

Hmmm...Harry looks like Waldo from those "Where's Waldo" books and 
Draco looks a bit like John Inman (Mr. Humphries on "Are You Being 
Served"). I wonder how Ron and Hermione will be portrayed.

:-(Milz




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Tue Feb 13 17:20:30 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:20:30 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Weird Names
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDF3@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 12161


** Becca contributed:
** 
** >Speaking of weird names...I knew a girl named Asshole pronounced 
** ASH-ho-lay.
** 
** A few years back, there was a very funny Sat. Night Live 
** sketch (rare 
** event! alert the press!) where Nicolas Cage and Julia 
** Sweeney played a 
** couple who were trying to choose a name for their unborn son.  She 
** keeps suggesting really simple names, names no one could possibly 
** object to--John, James, Tom--and he keeps shooting them down because 
** of some far-fetched way he imagines other kids could make 
** fun of them. 
**  He's getting totally worked up.  Then all is explained:  a delivery 
** guy comes to the door with a package for "Asswipe Johnson."  "It's 
** Ahz-wi-pay!" Nicolas insists.
** 
** So be warned, parents:  choose well, lest you scar your kid for life.
** 
** Amy Z

This is _exactly_ what I thought of when I read Becca's post!  I loved this
sketch!  I call my husband Ahz-wee-pay all the time!

Sorry, OT, but darn funny.

Mer



From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Tue Feb 13 17:32:24 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (Jeralyn)
Date: 13 Feb 2001 09:32:24 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Re: OT: Weird Names
Message-ID: <20010213173224.2971.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12162

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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010213/8875d2c2/attachment.ksh>

From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Feb 13 18:00:17 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:00:17 -0000
Subject: DRACO DOLLS! (was New figures from Mattel)
In-Reply-To: <20010213154627.69203.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96bsnh+3efs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12163


> 
> They made Draco Dolls! Finally! 

And there is at least a passing resemblence to the fellow they have 
cast to play Draco in the films, Tom Felton (?). That would suggest 
that this may be our first look at the way they made Tom into Draco, 
which was something we were discussing not too long ago around here.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a picture of Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle on the Malfoy page
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From rina at love-productions.com  Tue Feb 13 18:20:05 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:20:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MEP and spells
Message-ID: <008001c095e9$9e9d4740$fc24a7ac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12164

Rita wrote:

<<First, we were discussing some list member's brother who cannot speak,
but uses language by typing on some adaptive device that requires
electricity to run. That doesn't sound like he's non-verbal or unable to
use language. However, I don't deny that the problem might be in the
parts of the brain that control the voice rather than in mouth or
throat. However, just because the problem is in the brain doesn't mean
it can't be cured by a spell on the mouth.>>

Wow, really? Man, is Josh going to be excited to hear that 11 years of speech therapists were wrong, and he is verbal after all! <g> I guess what your suggesting is a spell to cure something like apraxia (basically, thoughts are fine, but there's difficulty transmitting those thoughts to the mouth), but I don't see a spell on the mouth helping a brain problem. <shrug> Nothing wrong with Josh's mouth or vocal cords, he just has some crossed neurons and such. It'd be fun to see what JKR's thoughts are, though.

Actually, this leads me to a question I've had about spells for awhile. I said before I liked the idea of thinking/signing spells, and we've seen evidence of spells that apparently *are thought driven. But when they are spoken, why do they only work sometimes? Like, Avada Kedavra. People say it without invoking it - does that have to do with pointing wands, and/or thoughts of intent? Students can say a spell, point a wand, most likely intend to do the spell, and just can't do it. (Wingardium Leviosa or accio, for example.) What are the elements needed to to a sucessful spell, outside of practice?

BTW, ender, can't wait to read that staff meeting scene. <g> All weekend long, I've been picturing team meetings and MEP plans, and it just amuses me to no end. LOL 

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 18:27:13 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:27:13 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
In-Reply-To: <F2400IP5zGBprWC5YJO00009995@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96bua1+9tfj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12165

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> This post is dedicated to the entire Mod Squad, who thought the 
Great 
> Shipping Debate was Resting In Peace.  Cheers!
> 
> First question--
> 
> One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to 
debunk HGTG is 
> that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he 
doesn't 
> have... the girl."
> 
> Validity of the above position aside... doesn't this reasoning work 
most 
> satisfactorily if the hero actually wants the girl, and the girl 
(you have 
> to admit the terminology involved in this position is troublesome) 
chooses 
> the alternate hero/sidekick over him?
> 
> After all...
> 
> Ron has a lot that Harry doesn't have... red hair, height, 20/20 
vision, 
> formerly a rat... this list goes on a bit further, but you catch my 
drift.  
> There is no indication thus far that Harry wants any of these 
things.
> 
> If Hermione also falls under this Unwanted category, I'm not sure 
how canon 
> R/H would give Ron the satisfaction that he has something that 
Harry 
> doesn't.  I'm not sure that even getting the girl at this point 
would 
> completely alleviate his growing disquietude.
> 
> However...
> 
> If the H/Hers' FITD theory is *reversed* all of a sudden from
> 
> R----->He---(?)--->Ha----->C/R/no one
> 
> to a chain that is highly implausible at this point in canon--
> 
> Ha----->He----->R
> 
> ...it seems as if this would satisfy the R/H argument that "Ron 
needs 
> something that Harry doesn't have" to "Ron deserves something that 
Harry 
> doesn't have *and wants*."
> 
> Since there is no canonical evidence whatsoever of Reversed FITD, 
how does 
> Ron Getting Hermione (winces again at the terminology) fulfill the 
criteria 
> set forth by R/Hers in the first place?
> 
<snip>

I don't think that Ron wants things that Harry has. I 
mean, I don't think he wants things *because* Harry has them. 
Ron's problem, IMO, is that there are things that he feels he lacks 
and his jealousy of Harry is the *outcome* of this sense of lack - it 
is *because* he feels unimportant or unspecial within his own family 
that Harry's fame arouses his envy; *because* his family is 
relatively poor, Harry's affluence bugs him. 
I don't see his jealousy of Harry as being personal, that is, 
arising from the relationship. It just so happens, that Harry is his 
best friend and he also has a lot of things that Ron, quite apart 
from his relationship with Harry, feels the lack of. 
The kind of jealousy you're portraying is the kind prevalent among 
siblings. You can see it a lot with young children: one sister starts 
playing with a toy and immediately the other tries to grab it, 
screaming that *she* wants it. If that were true of Ron's 
relationship with Harry, he would have been tremendously jealous of 
Harry's phenomenal success at Quidditch, and he's obviously not. 

The Ron-deserves-something argument doesn't make any sense to me 
unless viewed as external to the story. That is, its not about Ron 
needing something that Harry doesn't have, but rather a literary 
argument, at the level of the story's structure. I agree that if we 
accept that Ron feels that way ("Harry has everything, I want 
something that he doesn't have") then it would be much more 
satisfying for him to have something that Harry wants. 

Naama

 

Naama


 




From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Tue Feb 13 18:29:09 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:29:09 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MoM Court System (was Discussion Summary: GoF/Chapter 30 - "The Pensieve")
In-Reply-To: <3A895381.367E9C6A@swbell.net>
References: <96b81v+f50g@eGroups.com> <3A895381.367E9C6A@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <2nti8t8bb1m48pck8qupmfc98dmnihjsr6@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12166

On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:32:17 -0600, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer
<pennylin at swbell.net> wrote:

>I don't think that extreme police action measures in times of war
>necessarily means that there is no established judicial system in a
>given society.  I do see your point that the wizarding system should
>have revisited imprisonment cases instituted during the time of crisis,
>once the crisis was passed.  But, I still don't think it precludes them
>from having an established system. 

Hmm. It is never mentioned in the canon, though. And the fact that
people like Hagrid are sent to Azkaban without listening to them
during "normal" times makes me think that there isn't a well
established system. Ok, the Chamber of Secrets had been opened again
and Hagrid was supposed to be the one who opened it 50 years ago, but
still... Even if there isn't another prison apart from Azkaban (with
the low wizard population in England it should be sufficient), we
never hear of people being taken into custody before they are sent to
Azkaban. I also wonder if what we saw in the Pensieve were really
trials or just something that had become necessary in the aftermath of
Voldemort's downfall.

> The next chapter of ASA has alot to
>say on this (there I go again!  Another shameless plug ...).

Yes, I know. ;) And I'm really looking forward to reading it.

>My feeling was that the courtroom was in this "dungeon" area of the
>MoM.  They aren't just taking statements as part of an investigation.
>Bagman and Crouch Jr. were clearly "on trial" so to speak.

You are the professional, so I have to believe you here. But to me it
didn't quite look right to be a trial.

Monika


--
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html

Current book: Peg Kerr: The Wild Swans



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 13 18:44:13 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:44:13 -0000
Subject: Countingdown.com has a description of the movie trailers
Message-ID: <96bv9t+de7n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12167

It's at 
http://www.countingdown.com/movies/harrypotter/movieinfo/production?
item_id=10975
The script/synopsis is mesmerizing. 
I have to admit, I haven't been to a movie since XMen this summer, 
but I will buy a ticket to whatever they put this trailer in front 
of. Warner Bros, are you listening?

There's also a suggestion there that actor John Hurt will be playing 
Morgana on her Famous Witches & Wizards card.




From melssa99 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 18:50:42 2001
From: melssa99 at hotmail.com (Melissa Daily)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:50:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: James Potter's house 
Message-ID: <F134f69aZbLAX3cf3ed00002f9c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12168

Star wrote:

>I'm possitve that MWPP and Lily were all in Gryffindor even if I don't 
> >have all the proof in the world, there is no way that I could see >James 
>in Slytherin nor Lupin nor Sirius and well Wormtail's just a tag >along. 
>Lupin is a good person and I think that the sorting Hat would >look beyong 
>his being a werewolf and Sirius is quite brave so that >would put him in 
>Gryffindor as well and James, well that's just where >I see him.

These are all valid points, but part of me thinks there is a big possibility 
for James to have been in Slytherin. Even though the Slytherins are 
portrayed as bad and evil, they are also described by Dumbledore as highly 
intelligent and ambitious. We have seen ample proof that the Marauders were 
ambitious enough to become animagi as teenagers and they are often described 
as very bright. Plus the Sorting Hat was considering placing Harry in 
Slytherin, and we know that he is not evil. As far as the Marauders not 
being in Slytherin because that was  Snape's house, well their hatred could 
be explained as old fashioned jealousy. Snape really seems to dislike the 
fact that James was so talented at Quidditch. Maybe James "stole" Snape's 
position on the team. Some other people have brought up the idea that Snape 
was in love with Lily, and I could see that as a reasonable explanation as 
well. After all, we hear Snape speak ill of James all the time, but he has 
never once said a disparaging word about Lily.

That's just my two cents :)

Melissa



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ender_w at msn.com  Tue Feb 13 19:00:00 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:00:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Buck Teeth - Pensieve - PWD Students - Owls - Ships - 
References: <3A88C70F.4686F1FD@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <002f01c095ef$2baaa560$e0421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12169


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Catlady 
  To: HP4G 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 12:33 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Buck Teeth - Pensieve - PWD Students - Owls - Ships - 


  >ender wrote
  > Besides, I'd like to think that if a child has a disability that can
  > be fixed or changed by magic, it would be done in the early years
  > by  trained medical wizards.

  >Catlady answered
  >For wizard-born children, I certainly agree with you! But for
  >Muggle-born witch and wizard children, do you mean that medimages should
  >Apparate into the neonatal nursery to cast spells on the children?

  Yes!  They should! and they should fix all the other kids while they're at it!  No, I'm just kidding.  Seriously, I think that once again I was guilty of writing only part of what was going on in my head at the time.  When I wrote that I was thinking in terms of Wizarding society (which would, for the most part, exclude muggle-borns until they turn 11).  Perhaps there's a magical Headstart program in the wizard world so any children with disabilities, born to wizard parents, can receive early intervention.  

  ender




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 19:03:03 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:03:03 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Severus Snape
In-Reply-To: <012f01c0958f$9202e8a0$863770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96c0d7+pter@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12170

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
owever, this


> 
> (5) The old chestnut: Was Snape in love with Lily?  Are his 
feelings against
> Harry rooted in jealousy of or rivalry with his father?  Was Snape 
`Malfoy'
> to James Potter's `Harry'?
> 

I have a kind of theory about Snape's particualr hatred of Harry. Its 
not exclusive of all the other theories, just another dimension to 
their relationship.

OK, here goes:

As I see it, Snape's personality or psyche is organized around what 
must have been an enormous crisis - his conversion from evil to good. 
That, you might say, defines him to himself. He is somebody who used 
to be evil, and chose to be good (that is, join the side of 
goodness).  
How would Harry Potter seem to him (aside from being James' son)? 
As a baby he faced Voldemort and vanquished him. Without thought, 
without excruciating soul searching, without the self doubts and self 
hatred Harry became the icon of goodness. He received goodness as a 
birthright. And he did nothing for it. He hadn't suffered for it.
For a person who has struggled so hard to become good, it might be 
very galling to see somebody who is good, and famed for it, without 
any struggle, any agony. For me it explains better than all the other 
theories the intensity of Snape's hatred for Harry. It also explains 
why he is always so ready to believe the worst of him. Snape has a 
vested interest in finding Harry in the wrong, because it would prove 
that Harry doesn't have that innate goodness that everybody believes 
he has. 

I hope I've made my point clearly. I've been reading posts for hours 
now and getting really tired. I'd love to hear comments on this.

Naama 







From drielm at zonnet.nl  Tue Feb 13 19:58:18 2001
From: drielm at zonnet.nl (drielm)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:58:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
Message-ID: <00de01c095f7$51f75bc0$3e343b3e@marigina>

No: HPFGUIDX 12171

Hello to you all,

Most of the time I am a major lurker, but now the need to speak is killing
me. So hello (again, I know), my name is Maria, I am a not necessarily
dangerous, slightly deranged madwoman and I live (of all places) in Holland.
I *love* HP and JKR and all those great spinoffs by Penny and Carole, Cassie
Claire and Lori. I always enjoy the discussions on the net about HP,
especially yours.

So, now, about our beloved threesome: hasn't JKR shown us time and again, in
all four of her books, that almost nothing turns out to be what it seems in
the beginning? Ron?Hermione, even Harry/Hermione? I wouldn't be too
surprised if Hermione *does* end up with Draco Malfoy, (or even Snape) not
only in fanfic but in the (future) canon.
Remember, Joanne has managed to fool us before.

Just a thought.

Greetings,

Maria the Bewildered

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: zsenya at sugarquill.com <zsenya at sugarquill.com>
Aan: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Datum: dinsdag 13 februari 2001 3:16
Onderwerp: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Questions for R/Hers...


>Ebony,
>I'm not sure if I am going to make any sense here. I almost
>considered not answering this thread, as I'm pretty sure that
>anything I say will be taken out of context.  But I'll try to explain
>myself clearly.
>
>Ebony wrote:
>>One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to debunk
>HGTG is
>>that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he
>doesn't
>>have... the girl."
>
>Well, I am, as you know, one of the biggest believers in the R/H way,
>and that has never been one of my arguments for R/H or
>for "debunking" the "HGTG" theory.  As a matter of fact, I don't
>choose to base my beliefs that JKR will make a Ron/Hermione
>relationship a sideline story on any such theory.  I also don't think
>that Harry has everything.  It's the fact that Harry is so normal
>that makes him such a likable character.
>
>I don't see Ron/Hermione as having anything to do with Harry at all,
>to be perfectly honest.  At the moment, I think that the main reason
>that Ron likes Hermione is that he's a 14-year old boy and she
>happens to be the one person who makes his heart thump.   If Ron
>really was coveting something of Harry's, he'd be drooling all over
>Cho Chang, (even though she's not "Harry's" - I'm having a hard time
>with all of this possessiveness), Ron is aware of Harry's crush.
>
>The main point that you seem to be missing is that most R/H shippers
>tend to believe that there's evidence out there that Hermione likes
>Ron back.  I won't rehash all of the same arguments again (for
>example, what I like to term the "great semi-colon debate").  We
>don't see this as being about any sort of Ron/Harry competition.   If
>I saw evidence in the books that Hermione had any feelings other than
>friendship for Harry, I'd probably be climbing aboard the good ship
>H/H, but I just don't interpret the books that way.   If anything, I
>see a Ron/Hermione pairing as a benefit for Harry - I think he
>depends on them almost as one would family, and their "union" so to
>speak would solidify that family unit.
>
>Zsenya
>
>
>
>
>Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
>website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>




From mschub at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 20:24:48 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:24:48 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Severus Snape
In-Reply-To: <012f01c0958f$9202e8a0$863770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96c56g+12tf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12172

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> (1) How does Snape really feel about Igor Karkaroff?  He seems to 
pity him,
> but he is also angry at him (he did betray him in the courtroom ? 
did Snape
> know this?) .

I think another element of this question is how does Karkaroff feal 
about Snape? He's in the courtroom, having just given Snape over to 
the authorities, and Dumbledore stands up and really takes the wind 
out of his sails by announcing that Snape was a spy for the good guys. 
You'd think this would at the very least make him a little wary of 
Snape, and at the most make him LOATHE him (the Death Eaters seem the 
type to hate a traitor over and above anyone else). And yet he openly 
approaches him with the news that his scar (brand?) is getting darker. 
Perhaps he sees some sort of camaraderie in that they've both fled 
from the Death Eaters and are frightened to see V come back? I just 
can't figure out why he'd just so blindly accept him.
-Mike




From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Feb 13 20:33:06 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:33:06 -0700
Subject: SHIPS:  Harry/Hermione/Ron
In-Reply-To: <00de01c095f7$51f75bc0$3e343b3e@marigina>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEIIDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12173

I have a gut feeling that if and when our beloved Trio become adults, they
will all find Significant Others OUTSIDE the Trio.

I see Hermione marrying/living with an older man, possibly a Professor (not
necessarily one we know already), or some sort of educated professional that
can match her intellectually.  Maybe even a MUGGLE man that she meets at a
MUGGLE university, since I can't see her ending her education at age 18.

I see Ron marrying/living with a somewhat younger girl... one who knows how
to flatter a fragile ego.  I see him needing a firm foundation of love and
support -- someone who will listen and not criticize (or at least will make
non-snide suggestions about possible resolutions to whatever day-to-day
dilemmas he faces).

I see Harry marrying/living with a strong nurturing girl.  Someone who can
help him deal with the emotional debris of his upbringing and his battles
against Voldemort.  I see him falling for an outsider -- someone who hasn't
been involved in all his adventures and who would not be a daily reminder of
things he'd rather forget.  Or else Harry will be ever the loner, having
casual relationships with ladies but never settling down or being serious,
as a result of the emotional damage he's suffered.


Sister Mary Lunatic,
dropping her Trelawney crystal ball
and uttering a not-so-genteel word
before cleaning up the fragments.....





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 20:37:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:37:27 -0000
Subject: Snakes/Nagini (was JKR Dictionary?)
In-Reply-To: <20010212223219.17545.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96c5u7+coaa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12174

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Teek <purdymango1 at y...> wrote:

> Question: Has the list discussed
> snakes as a symbol for immortality? I ran into a reference to snakes
> as the symbol of the Sacred King of the ancient Greek matriarchal
> society, who were given the gift of immortality after they were 
eaten
> by the reigning Priestess. Sounds a lot like the death eaters to me.

When I see "Nagini" I always think of "naga," Sanskrit for snake (no, 
I don't know Sanskrit, but I've studied Buddhism a lot and you pick 
these things up).  Nagas have a very positive connotation--they are 
wiser and more spiritually advanced than most humans.  The term is 
even used as a synonym for the Buddha sometimes, and Nagarjuna, one 
of the greatest Buddhist thinkers of all time, was named for the 
nagas who are said to have instructed him.

I don't know about the immortality bit.  In Buddhism, immortality is 
not the goal; in fact, the goal is release from the repetitions of 
birth, death, and rebirth, so in a way you could say the goal is to 
be released from immortality.  But that is the stuff of an OT 
discussion.

Amy Z




From JMLeake at aol.com  Tue Feb 13 20:40:10 2001
From: JMLeake at aol.com (JMLeake at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:40:10 -0000
Subject: Would anyone like to help a newcomer to the goup?
Message-ID: <96c63a+go26@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12175

Hi, I'm a big Harry Potter fan, and I'm new to this group. (Truth be 
told, I'm new to Harry Potter discussion groups PERIOD.) I'm not all 
that computer literate, but I do like to discuss the Harry Potter 
books. Anyway, would anyone like to help me and tell me, say, what 
all these acronyms mean? (Some I've figured out, but not all.) And 
any other things about this group or messages that I should know 
would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!




From gingasan2 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 20:44:42 2001
From: gingasan2 at yahoo.com (Gingasan)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:44:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: (OT) Newbie Alert!
Message-ID: <20010213204442.23680.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12176

Hi y'all! I'm Gingasan, an avid HP fan who enjoys the
more... er... adult aspects of the stories ^_^

I must warn you that I'm a slashaholic... meaning that
I'm probably going to end up posting some slash work
here ^^;... I heard that you don't mind, though...

I'm an artist, writer, and a bishonen (pretty boy)
lover.  My favorite HP characters are Ron, Draco, and
Sirius Black ^_^

Hope to hear from you soon!

Gingasan, eating chocolate

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If life was an oyster, I'd be the pearl!
*Keeper of Draco Malfoy's heart and soul
*Keeper of Harry and Ron's first cuddle session

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From chessdiva at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 20:44:58 2001
From: chessdiva at hotmail.com (Lisa Gansky)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:44:58 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Griffindor quidditch replacement member
Message-ID: <F262lSiBESMwWPvBShZ0000b132@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12177




>From: "Tina Smart" <vaile2000 at hotmail.com>

>I had this thought:
>
>Maybe, even though she has shown no interest for it so far, Hermoine will
>join the team.
>
>Who is it that she is visiting over the summer holidays? None but the 
>famous
>seeker, Krum!
>It might be something they do together while she visits. He might show her
>all the nifty tricks!

Cool thought Tina! That would be a great story line :) You should write a 
fan fic ;)
~Lisa

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Feb 13 20:46:53 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:46:53 -0000
Subject: Newbie - Teachers - Snape
Message-ID: <96c6ft+8ej4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12178

Hi, first time poster here. Apologies if these topics have been 
discussed before, I have been skulking for a while and haven't seen 
them. 

First a question, possibly a wierd one but here goes: does anyone 
know where the teachers go during the holidays? I have seen a few 
posts (maybe on another site) suggesting that Snape is at Hogwarts 
under the protection of Dumbledore. However if the teachers leave 
Hogwarts for the holidays, won't that leave poor Snape a little 
unprotected? If some teachers stay at Hogwarts, what is the reason 
for Harry having to spend the summer with the Dursleys?

Secondly, someone mentioned that Snape was called the "potions 
master". While I agree that this could imply that he is a male 
teacher or that he is master of his art, could there be another 
reason? I could be mistaken, but Snape is not always referred to 
as "Professor Snape" like many other staff members. Quite often he is 
called just "Snape". At first I thought this was just disrespectful 
students, but JKR does this too. This puts Snape with Dumbledore and 
Hagrid as having no *titles*. Is this a link we should make, or am I 
imagining things? However (I am contradicting myself here) in SS/PS 
Dumbledore corrects Harry in the hospital bay:
Harry: "...Snape"
Dumbledore: "Professor Snape, Harry."
Harry: "Yeah him..."
Like I said, I could be imagining things, but does anyone else have 
any ideas?

Sarah 





From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Feb 13 20:52:44 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:52:44 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DRACO DOLLS! (was New figures from Mattel)
In-Reply-To: <20010213154627.69203.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKEBIDDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12179

--- rgoertz at austin.rr.com wrote:
> Here are pictures from the upcoming figures from
> Mattel.
<a
href="http://www.action-figure.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=137">

Heidi replied: "They made Draco Dolls! Finally"


They have made him left-handed. Is there canon evidence for this or is it
another intriguing merchandise action. I cannot remember it ever being
mentioned that Draco is right-handed or even left-handed.

Some more information at: http://filmforce.ign.com/news/2008.html

Shame they put Harry by the Slytherin flag and Draco by the Gryffindor flag.
Unless this is news of an impending swap in house allegiances.



Simon
--
DESIGN A LOGO FOR THIS CLUB

Are you artistic?  Would you like to design a logo for this club?  Then
enter our competition and win nothing!!  But before you unleash your
creativity, PLEASE read the rules and follow the instructions here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/11192






From jferer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 21:02:19 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:02:19 -0000
Subject: SHIPS:  Harry/Hermione/Ron
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEIIDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <96c7cr+74fj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12180

Sister Mary Lunatic:" I see Ron marrying/living with a somewhat 
younger girl... one who knows how to flatter a fragile ego.  I see him 
needing a firm foundation of love and  support -- someone who will 
listen and not criticize (or at least will make non-snide suggestions 
about possible resolutions to whatever day-to-day dilemmas he faces)."

"Fragile ego" may be too strong a word, but I can't think of a tamer 
one that fits; but yes, he's tired of being tail-end Charlie (which 
started with his brothers, not Harry or Hermione).  He wants to be 
somebody's hero.

SML:"I see Harry marrying/living with a strong nurturing girl.  
Someone who can help him deal with the emotional debris of his 
upringing and his battles against Voldemort.  I see him falling for an 
outsider -- someone who hasn't been involved in all his adventures and 
who would not be a daily reminder of things he'd rather forget."

Also plausible, but the exception might be Ginny, depending on how her 
personality develops. Actually, I don't see him going too far afield. 
No experience can compare with the intensity of what he will have gone 
through in the War.

SML:"Or else Harry will be ever the loner, having casual relationships 
with ladies but never settling down or being serious, as a result of 
the emotional damage he's suffered."

The most plausible scenario of all for Harry. I really see him as "the 
man alone."  He may lose what he saved for everybody else.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Feb 13 21:15:51 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:15:51 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Would anyone like to help a newcomer to the goup?
References: <96c63a+go26@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008501c09602$24f04140$eb3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12181

JMLeake said:

> Hi, I'm a big Harry Potter fan, and I'm new to this group. (Truth be
> told, I'm new to Harry Potter discussion groups PERIOD.) I'm not all
> that computer literate, but I do like to discuss the Harry Potter
> books. Anyway, would anyone like to help me and tell me, say, what
> all these acronyms mean? (Some I've figured out, but not all.) And
> any other things about this group or messages that I should know
> would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Hi JM!

Welcome to HP for Grown Ups, and don't worry - we're all really friendly
and, in some cases, furry.

You asked about the acronyms we use here.  We have a file listing the
meanings (below), which you can access online.  You will have to log in to
our club area first, I think, using yourYahoo ID and password.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.ht
m

You will find some other useful files and links on the homepage, under the
Files and Links sections, and you might want to check out the Databases and
Polls as well.  The two files in my sig (signature) at the bottom of the
page are worth reading - one lists our netiquette guidelines and the other
is a Portkey to our sister groups and other adult HP resources.

Um, talking of acronyms - what are the names behind  JM, if you don't mind
me asking?

Neil
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Visit the Portkey for all the info on this club:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/%20%20Portkey.htm





From JMLeake at aol.com  Tue Feb 13 21:48:57 2001
From: JMLeake at aol.com (JMLeake at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:48:57 -0000
Subject: Would anyone like to help a newcomer to the goup?
In-Reply-To: <008501c09602$24f04140$eb3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96ca49+6bt7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12182

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Hi JM!
> 
> Welcome to HP for Grown Ups, and don't worry - we're all really 
friendly
> and, in some cases, furry.
> 
> You asked about the acronyms we use here.  We have a file listing 
the
> meanings (below), which you can access online.  You will have to 
log in to
> our club area first, I think, using yourYahoo ID and password.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-
shorthand.ht
> m
> 
> You will find some other useful files and links on the homepage, 
under the
> Files and Links sections, and you might want to check out the 
Databases and
> Polls as well.  The two files in my sig (signature) at the bottom 
of the
> page are worth reading - one lists our netiquette guidelines and 
the other
> is a Portkey to our sister groups and other adult HP resources.
> 
> Um, talking of acronyms - what are the names behind  JM, if you 
don't mind
> me asking?
> 
> Neil

Thanks! That was really helpful! Ah, yes, and the "JM" is for Joey 
McLaurin. Thanks again!




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 21:50:07 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:50:07 -0000
Subject: Harry's resilience (was SHIPS:  Harry/Hermione/Ron)
In-Reply-To: <96c7cr+74fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ca6f+hsn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12183

> SML:"Or else Harry will be ever the loner, having casual 
relationships 
> with ladies but never settling down or being serious, as a result 
of 
> the emotional damage he's suffered."

Jim:
 > The most plausible scenario of all for Harry. I really see him 
as "the 
> man alone."  He may lose what he saved for everybody else.

This may be wishful thinking on my part--I've been known to indulge 
in it--but I see Harry as being a lot more resilient than that.  He 
has already come through a really rotten childhood with his sense of 
self intact, and it's improving.  (He's pretty scrappy vis-a-vis the 
Dursleys even in Book 1 Chapter 2, but gets scrappier with each 
book.)  Even after the annual attempts on his life, he seems to be 
getting more, not less, trusting, confident, resourceful, _____ (fill 
in your favorite sign of healthy emotional development).  He is wiser 
and no doubt sadder in many ways than he was 4 years ago, but not 
embittered or alienated.

Amy Z
now bucking for job of Harry's therapist




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Feb 13 22:04:53 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:04:53 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Slash fiction was ( (OT) Newbie Alert!)
References: <20010213204442.23680.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00a101c09608$fed12cc0$eb3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12184

Gingasan said:

> Hi y'all! I'm Gingasan, an avid HP fan who enjoys the
> more... er... adult aspects of the stories ^_^
>
> I must warn you that I'm a slashaholic... meaning that
> I'm probably going to end up posting some slash work
> here ^^;... I heard that you don't mind, though...

We don't mind discussion of things slash-related in the context of fanfic or
'shipper' debates, but we do ask that people prefix their message headers
FF: or SHIP: accordingly (some people put SLASH in the header as well).
Also, although we are adults, we wouldn't want to be reading messages that
required plain brown wrappers... if you catch my drift ;-)

Our emphasis is on literary discussion or 'the pulling to pieces' of the HP
books.  Some of our members have posted fanfic here, but this really isn't
the best forum for having work reviewed. I suggest that you post your
writing to a site with the emphasis on fan writing, such as one of the slash
lists (hpslash - which you must know) or a general fic site, like ff.net.
You could then refer people to your stories (but please check with the
moderators before plugging anything here).

Other than that, please enjoy and join in the discussions here!  As an avid
HP fan, you'll be right at home.

Neil
Moderator Team
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (ignition on)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

HPfGU Moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Visit the Portkey for all the info on this club:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/%20%20Portkey.htm














From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Feb 13 22:11:57 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:11:57 -0000
Subject: Fluffy
Message-ID: <96cbfd+lq9m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12185

today in the Washington Post, on the KidsPost page, there is a 
picture of 2 new HP toys from the Toy Expo or whatever it is called 
that just happened in NY.  There is a really cool-looking 3 headed 
dog (Fluffy, of course) and something called a Harry Potter 
Electronic Encyclopedia.

--Joywitch




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Tue Feb 13 21:54:02 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:54:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's CAN'T be the loner
References: <96ca6f+hsn7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010e01c09607$7ab20b40$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12186

    I agree wholeheartedly with Amy.  I can't see Harry as a loner, he'd get
far too depressed.  I see him needing a lot of human contact and comfort
when he's older.  Even in his squabbles with Hermione and Ron he shows us
that he needs a steady, calm shrine for affection.  Plus, he *is* getting
stronger emotionally and I think he will stick that way.

Becca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:50 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's resilience (was SHIPS: Harry/Hermione/Ron)


> > SML:"Or else Harry will be ever the loner, having casual
> relationships
> > with ladies but never settling down or being serious, as a result
> of
> > the emotional damage he's suffered."
>
> Jim:
>  > The most plausible scenario of all for Harry. I really see him
> as "the
> > man alone."  He may lose what he saved for everybody else.
>
> This may be wishful thinking on my part--I've been known to indulge
> in it--but I see Harry as being a lot more resilient than that.  He
> has already come through a really rotten childhood with his sense of
> self intact, and it's improving.  (He's pretty scrappy vis-a-vis the
> Dursleys even in Book 1 Chapter 2, but gets scrappier with each
> book.)  Even after the annual attempts on his life, he seems to be
> getting more, not less, trusting, confident, resourceful, _____ (fill
> in your favorite sign of healthy emotional development).  He is wiser
> and no doubt sadder in many ways than he was 4 years ago, but not
> embittered or alienated.
>
> Amy Z
> now bucking for job of Harry's therapist
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our

> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Tue Feb 13 22:16:12 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:16:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fluffy
In-Reply-To: <96cbfd+lq9m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010213171440.05291bb0@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12187

At 10:11 PM 02/13/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>today in the Washington Post, on the KidsPost page, there is a
>picture of 2 new HP toys from the Toy Expo or whatever it is called
>that just happened in NY.  There is a really cool-looking 3 headed
>dog (Fluffy, of course) and something called a Harry Potter
>Electronic Encyclopedia.

Actually, the Fluffy isn't part of the toy line and it's called the "Harry 
Potter Book of Spells":
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_04_archive.html#2324488


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 13 22:16:16 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:16:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fluffy
In-Reply-To: <96cbfd+lq9m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010213221616.29731.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12188

The Kidpost has an HP page, but no link to the story
yet - at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/kids/features/A58485-2000Jul6.html
And http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/kids/ is the
front page of the kidpost site


--- joym999 at aol.com wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
today in the Washington Post, on the KidsPost page,
there is a <BR>
picture of 2 new HP toys from the Toy Expo or whatever
it is called <BR>
that just happened in NY. There is a really
cool-looking 3 headed <BR>
dog (Fluffy, of course) and something called a Harry
Potter <BR>
Electronic Encyclopedia.<BR>
<BR>
--Joywitch<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more
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also, you can check out our eGroups/YahooGroups merger
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
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=====
heidi tandy

What Maureen Dowd thinks David Souter was thinking on Monday, December 11, 2000: I know the Bushes are furious at me. That'll teach 'em to assume that a guy living like a monk in an isolated New Hampshire farmhouse is some kind of Live Free or Die nut.

__________________________________________________
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From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Feb 13 22:59:58 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:59:58 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New figures from Mattel
In-Reply-To: <96bkf8+68h7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010213145912.03441840@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12189

At 03:39 PM 2/13/01 +0000, rgoertz at austin.rr.com wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>   Here are pictures from the upcoming figures from Mattel.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Ryan
>
>http://www.action-figure.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=137

I got the message "Access Forbidden".



                                                 -- Dave




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 23:04:26 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:04:26 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New figures from Mattel
Message-ID: <F232RdkfwuciGbN23Wv0000971e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12190

-- rgoertz at austin.rr.com wrote:
> > Here are pictures from the upcoming figures from
> > Mattel.
><a
>href="http://www.action-figure.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=137">


I dont know about everyone else(judging by posts, this wont aply to many) 
but I can't see the pictures!!!  I Get a forbidden message.  Is three 
somewhere else I can find the images??

Stephanie
Who REALLY wants a Draco action figure!!!!
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Tue Feb 13 23:07:18 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:07:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New figures from Mattel
In-Reply-To: <F232RdkfwuciGbN23Wv0000971e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010213180603.053afb50@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12191

At 05:04 PM 02/13/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>I dont know about everyone else(judging by posts, this wont aply to many)
>but I can't see the pictures!!!  I Get a forbidden message.  Is three
>somewhere else I can find the images??

Yes. IGN Filmforce has them:
http://filmforce.ign.com/news/2008.html


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From editor at texas.net  Tue Feb 13 23:14:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:14:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snakes/Nagini (was JKR Dictionary?)
References: <96c5u7+coaa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A89BFBE.569FC4C5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12192

Amy Z wrote:

> When I see "Nagini" I always think of "naga," Sanskrit for snake (no,
> I don't know Sanskrit, but I've studied Buddhism a lot and you pick
> these things up).  Nagas have a very positive connotation--they are
> wiser and more spiritually advanced than most humans.  The term is
> even used as a synonym for the Buddha sometimes, and Nagarjuna, one
> of the greatest Buddhist thinkers of all time, was named for the nagas
> who are said to have instructed him.

Yeah, but most of us will make the Rikki-Tikki-Tavi connection, where
Nag and Nagaina were definitely *not* good. (Of course, Kipling named
them that because of nagas.) I think the lady cobra's name was Nagaina,
something like that, but very close to Nagini and the connection clicked
for me. Anyone else a Kipling fan? Or see the animated version some eons
ago? Am I the only one that thought of this?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Feb 13 23:27:41 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:27:41 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Griffindor quidditch replacement member
In-Reply-To: <F262nwAFwzoonZUGQ5y0000b0df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010213152344.03201ac0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12193

At 07:16 PM 2/13/01 +1100, Tina Smart wrote:
>Maybe, even though she has shown no interest for it so far, Hermoine will
>join the team.
>
>Who is it that she is visiting over the summer holidays? None but the famous
>seeker, Krum!
>It might be something they do together while she visits. He might show her
>all the nifty tricks!

Frankly, I think it's more likely that Krum himself will join the Gryffindor
team than Hermione (if he transfers to Hogwarts)... Quidditch practice is
not good... It interferes with studying.

On the subject of Krum as a transfer student, do you think there will be a
mass migration from Durmstrang (and Beaubatons?) to Hogwarts?  Maybe
the Sorting Hat is in for something new next year -- It's never had to sort
*Seventh*-years before!



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Feb 13 23:36:03 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:36:03 -0800
Subject: Snape and Senator Specter (Semi-Political)
In-Reply-To: <F262nwAFwzoonZUGQ5y0000b0df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010213152905.031ad430@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12194

I just read that Senator Arlen Specter's current big crusade is to impeach
President Clinton, even though Bill has left office!

This makes me wonder: Even after Harry is through school and is a
certified Wizard, will Snape continue to push for his expulsion from
Hogwarts?  :)



                                                 -- Dave




From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 23:32:12 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Ginny Love)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:32:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SHIPS: Harry/Hermione/Ron
In-Reply-To: <982105614.2095.26173.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010213233212.66006.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12195

<purses lips> I've been lurking for several weeks, but
I *had* to comment on this topic.

 Sister Mary Lunitic wrote:
>Or else Harry will be ever the loner, 
>having
>casual relationships with ladies but never settling
>down or being serious, as a result of the emotional
>damage he's suffered

 I think that in reality Harry has been screwed up 
much too much to be a good mate. He is emotionaly
needy and while that means he could certianly use a
loving realationship, he could not efectivly
reciprocate the affections of a woman. A person he had
not grown up with could not really understand him, his
life and his problems. A person he had not grown up
with could not deal with the way he has the stability
of a slug. And few who grew up with him could do that,
unless they had a deep caring for him, unless they had
gone years with unrequited love and all they wanted
was to take him in their loving arms and comfort and
care for the lonely orphan boy. Unless that person
was. . .Draco Malfoy. Didn't see it coming, did you?
<eg>


Ginny Love

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Tue Feb 13 23:42:53 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:42:53 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's resilience (was SHIPS:  Harry/Hermione/Ron)
Message-ID: <f3.7780dae.27bb207d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12196

In a message dated 2/13/2001 3:52:17 PM Central Standard Time, 
aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:


> He is wiser and no doubt sadder in many ways than he was 4 years ago, but 
> not 
> embittered or alienated.
> 
> 

Choosing to remain single would not necessarily be caused by Harry's being 
embittered or alienated.  It's a completely valid lifestyle choice.

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 23:45:22 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:45:22 -0000
Subject: Possible Error
In-Reply-To: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDD1@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <96cgui+jagm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12197

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson 
<aviationoutreachcoord at m...> wrote:
> I just read that part myself and thought the same thing!  
> 
> Here's another question, brought up to me by a friend of mine this 
weekend.
> 
> We see several times (most specifically in GoF when Hedwig is 
finding
> Sirius) that when sending owl post, the owls can find people pretty 
much
> anywhere they are, right?  Why then in PoA did nobody ever send an 
owl to
> Sirius and just follow it on broomstick to find his whereabouts?
> 
> I told him that there had to be some kind of charm that allows 
someone not
> to be found by owl post if they're in hiding, but he said that 
wasn't a good
> enough answer and so I now turn to you.  If anybody has an answer, 
it has to
> be you guys!
> 

Ok, here are my various ways to try to bail us out of this one:

The first thing that pops into my mind is that owls are very smart, 
and clearly in JKR's world, magical in some way.  I get the 
impression that they are rather proud, and judging from the number of 
times forms of the word 'indignant' are used in reference to Hedwig, 
I'd think they wouldn't be too keen on being used like that. I'm 
pretty sure they could shake a wizard on a broomstick if they wanted 
to.  Especially when, in talking about broomstick flying JKR refers 
to 50' as being high, I have to wonder if broomsticks can follow owls 
very well.   
Also there is definitely some sort of magic involved in the owls 
being able to find people wherever they are.  
Maybe the owl has to know the person, or to have delivered to the 
person before, knowing where they were, and after they 'know' the 
person, they can find them anywhere?  Can't remember if Hedwig had 
delivered to him or met him at all before he went into hiding, so 
that one's especially tentative.  
Or how about this?
Remember what Dumbledore did with the Mirror and the Stone?  He made 
it so that you could get the stone if you just wanted to *find* it, 
but not if you wanted to use it.  Seems like Arthur wrote something 
along those same lines into the Muggle Protection Act, didn't he?  
You can mess with muggle artifacts, but only under certain 
circumstances, and it's the intention that matters.  Maybe there's a 
similar thing at work with owl post - the person can be found if the 
intention is simply to send a letter, but you can't use it to track 
them?  Kinda far-fetched, but the best I can do at the moment.

kimberly,
Who'd really like to know the real reason, now that you've got me 
thinking about it!




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Wed Feb 14 00:24:41 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:24:41 -0000
Subject: Snakes/Nagini (was JKR Dictionary?)
In-Reply-To: <3A89BFBE.569FC4C5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96cj89+cr04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12199

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > 
> Yeah, but most of us will make the Rikki-Tikki-Tavi connection, 
where
> Nag and Nagaina were definitely *not* good. (Of course, Kipling 
named
> them that because of nagas.) I think the lady cobra's name was 
Nagaina,
> something like that, but very close to Nagini and the connection 
clicked
> for me. Anyone else a Kipling fan? Or see the animated version some 
eons
> ago? Am I the only one that thought of this?
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> Ah, thank you Amanda!  Yes, I'm a *huge* Kipling fan.  Nagini 
sounded *so bloody familiar*!  The brain cells must have been taking 
a nap that day, because I couldn't for the life of me think where I'd 
heard it.  

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 01:01:35 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:01:35 -0000
Subject: How do owls do that?
In-Reply-To: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDD1@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <96cldf+ppr3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12200

Meredith:" We see several times (most specifically in GoF when Hedwig 
is finding Sirius) that when sending owl post, the owls can find 
people pretty much anywhere they are, right?  Why then in PoA did 
nobody ever send an owl to Sirius and just follow it on broomstick to 
find his whereabouts?"

Here's my offering:

Owls do things like fly hundreds, even thousands of miles, in a short 
time, so in many cases they aren't physically "flying" the way we 
understand it.  Of course, we have examples of brooms making 
ridiculously long journeys (Charlie's friends who carried Norbert to 
Roumania).

It's possible to make a location Unplottable so it can't be found on a 
map; Hermione mentions it in GoF.  It should therefore be possible to 
make something Unfollowable as well. 





From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 01:10:59 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:10:59 -0000
Subject: Harry's CAN'T be the loner
In-Reply-To: <010e01c09607$7ab20b40$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <96clv3+5je8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12201

Rebecca:"I agree wholeheartedly with Amy.  I can't see Harry as a 
loner, he'd get far too depressed.  I see him needing a lot of human 
contact and comfort when he's older.  Even in his squabbles with 
Hermione and Ron he shows us that he needs a steady, calm shrine for 
affection.  Plus, he *is* getting stronger emotionally and I think he 
will stick that way."

Harry isn't naturally a loner, we agree on that; but his experiences 
will cost him very deeply.  He is going to suffer; he's going to watch 
good people die; he's going to watch people he loves die, some of them 
horribly.  He's likely to be afraid to love anyone because of the 
losses he's been through. He can't risk it.  It will take him time to 
sort out what's happened to him.  I believe the trials he's faced so 
far, including the graveyard, are nothing compared to what he's going 
to go through. He may be getting stronger emotionally, but he's going 
to need it all and then some.

What we can agree on is that this state may not be permanent. Harry 
can emerge from it, but it's not automatic.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rebecca Boswell" <rboswell at m...> wrote:
>     I agree wholeheartedly with Amy.  I can't see Harry as a loner, 
he'd get
> far too depressed.  I see him needing a lot of human contact and 
comfort
> when he's older.  Even in his squabbles with Hermione and Ron he 
shows us
> that he needs a steady, calm shrine for affection.  Plus, he *is* 
getting
> stronger emotionally and I think he will stick that way.
> 
> Becca
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...>
> To: <HPforGrownups at y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:50 PM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's resilience (was SHIPS: 
Harry/Hermione/Ron)
> 
> 
> > > SML:"Or else Harry will be ever the loner, having casual
> > relationships
> > > with ladies but never settling down or being serious, as a 
result
> > of
> > > the emotional damage he's suffered."
> >
> > Jim:
> >  > The most plausible scenario of all for Harry. I really see him
> > as "the
> > > man alone."  He may lose what he saved for everybody else.
> >
> > This may be wishful thinking on my part--I've been known to 
indulge
> > in it--but I see Harry as being a lot more resilient than that.  
He
> > has already come through a really rotten childhood with his sense 
of
> > self intact, and it's improving.  (He's pretty scrappy vis-a-vis 
the
> > Dursleys even in Book 1 Chapter 2, but gets scrappier with each
> > book.)  Even after the annual attempts on his life, he seems to be
> > getting more, not less, trusting, confident, resourceful, _____ 
(fill
> > in your favorite sign of healthy emotional development).  He is 
wiser
> > and no doubt sadder in many ways than he was 4 years ago, but not
> > embittered or alienated.
> >
> > Amy Z
> > now bucking for job of Harry's therapist
> >
> >
> >
> > Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, 
see our
> 
> > website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can 
check out
> our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
> groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at y...
> >
> >
> >




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 01:11:58 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:11:58 -0000
Subject: Snakes/Nagini (was JKR Dictionary?)
In-Reply-To: <96cj89+cr04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96cm0u+i25g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12202

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > > 
> > Yeah, but most of us will make the Rikki-Tikki-Tavi connection, 
> where
> > Nag and Nagaina were definitely *not* good. (Of course, Kipling 
> named
> > them that because of nagas.) I think the lady cobra's name was 
> Nagaina,
> > something like that, but very close to Nagini and the connection 
> clicked
> > for me. Anyone else a Kipling fan? Or see the animated version 
some 
> eons
> > ago? Am I the only one that thought of this?
> > 
> > --Amanda
> > 
> > 
> > Ah, thank you Amanda!  Yes, I'm a *huge* Kipling fan.  Nagini 
> sounded *so bloody familiar*!  The brain cells must have been taking 
> a nap that day, because I couldn't for the life of me think where 
I'd 
> heard it.  
> 
> Peace & Plenty,
> 
> Parker

Yeah, serpents have a LOT of associations with immortality in many 
religions... it is often said that serpents stole the secret of 
immortality from humans, and humans have been trying to get it back 
ever since. Early people likely watched snakes shed their skin and 
emerge brighter and larger than before. They thus concluded that the 
serpent must have conquered death. There is also the ouroboros, the 
snake that bites its own tail, symbol of eternity and unity. Legends 
of serpents devouring their own tails occurs in ancient instructions 
for alchemy and the making of the philosopher's stone... ^_^

- Celeste Chang




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 01:16:43 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:16:43 -0000
Subject: Harry's resilience (was SHIPS:  Harry/Hermione/Ron)
In-Reply-To: <f3.7780dae.27bb207d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <96cm9r+akqj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12203

Elizabeth:"Choosing to remain single would not necessarily be caused 
by Harry's being embittered or alienated.  It's a completely valid 
lifestyle choice."

Sure it is. A better choice of words would be to say Harry might have 
no long-term or intimate relationships, or be isolated.  In Harry's 
case, if that happens it would probably be because of his experiences.




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 01:17:39 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:17:39 -0000
Subject: Harry's resilience (was SHIPS:  Harry/Hermione/Ron)
In-Reply-To: <f3.7780dae.27bb207d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <96cmbj+hp2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12204

Elizabeth:"Choosing to remain single would not necessarily be caused 
by Harry's being embittered or alienated.  It's a completely valid 
lifestyle choice."

Sure it is. A better choice of words would be to say Harry might have 
no long-term or intimate relationships, or be isolated.  In Harry's 
case, if that happens it would probably be because of his experiences.




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Feb 14 01:23:38 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:23:38 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPS: Harry/Hermione/Ron
In-Reply-To: <20010213233212.66006.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEIPDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12205


Ginny wrote:
>>>>> unless they had
gone years with unrequited love and all they wanted
was to take him in their loving arms and comfort and
care for the lonely orphan boy. Unless that person
was. . .Draco Malfoy. Didn't see it coming, did you?
<eg><<<<<<<<

Urgh -- I had this sudden flashback to the TV production of "Brideshead
Revisited" when the dipsomaniac Sebastian was living with that pathetic
German ex-soldier in Algiers or someplace, and the two of them were so
pitiful and sick and clinging to each other like the last survivors at the
end of the world.  I can just see Potter and Malfoy like that, addicted to
booze and drugs, sitting unshaven, dissipated and bleary-eyed in Malfoy
Mansion, playing video games and telling each other that nobody appreciated
them.  Heh heh heh


SML







From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Wed Feb 14 01:32:01 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:32:01 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Countingdown.com has a description of the movie trailers
Message-ID: <f5.73c2b36.27bb3a11@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12206

In a message dated Tue, 13 Feb 2001  1:46:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes:

<< It's at 
http://www.countingdown.com/movies/harrypotter/movieinfo/production?
item_id=10975
The script/synopsis is mesmerizing. >>

Yes, an early trailer was shown at Toy Fair and as well as another show taking place at the same time in another location.

<<I have to admit, I haven't been to a movie since XMen this summer, but I will buy a ticket to whatever they put this trailer in front of. >>

As soon as they tell me, that will be something, I believe, I can pass on.

<<Warner Bros, are you listening?>>

Yes.



~Hedwig~





From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Wed Feb 14 01:33:28 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:33:28 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's CAN'T be the loner
Message-ID: <61.b61577a.27bb3a68@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12207

In a message dated Tue, 13 Feb 2001  5:20:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Rebecca Boswell" <rboswell at mediaone.net> writes:

<<     I agree wholeheartedly with Amy.  I can't see Harry as a loner, he'd get
far too depressed.  >>

Hasn't he spent all his life alone? Wouldn't he be used to it by now? 


~Hedwig~



From rboswell at mediaone.net  Wed Feb 14 01:36:40 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:36:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's CAN'T be the loner
References: <61.b61577a.27bb3a68@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c09626$95e35080$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12208

**** I still CAN'T see Harry as a loner in the long run!!! ::sigh::****

Hedwig wrote:

"Hasn't he spent all his life alone? Wouldn't he be used to it by now?"

And I reply:

    He hasn't spent ALL of his life alone.  I think these four years in
Hogwarts don't qualify as alone.  And I think he's rather comfortable in the
graces of Ron and Hermione, and is enjoying it, so he wouldn't be able to
shun himself from the world completely without someone bringing him back.

Jim wrote:

"Harry isn't naturally a loner, we agree on that; but his experiences
will cost him very deeply.  He is going to suffer; he's going to watch
good people die; he's going to watch people he loves die, some of them
horribly.  He's likely to be afraid to love anyone because of the
losses he's been through. He can't risk it.  It will take him time to
sort out what's happened to him.  I believe the trials he's faced so
far, including the graveyard, are nothing compared to what he's going
to go through. He may be getting stronger emotionally, but he's going
to need it all and then some."

    And I reply:

    Do you really think that people will *let* Harry be alone after all of
the terrible things that are bound to happen to him?   Do you really think
he'll truely *want* to be left alone?  Even though Harry might shun people
in the beginning, I highly doubt he can keep himself isolated for long.  He
needs the support.  I mean, we all know he's going to be considerably
traumatized by the end of the seventh book, what with so many people losing
their lives, but I believe his character has enough determination to survive
emotionally and will be able to welcome people's comfort.  He can't be a
loner, because there will always be someone, either Ron, Hermione, Mrs.
Weasley, Sirius, or Dumbledore, to comfort him and drag him, if necessary,
back to reality.  I can't see...alone.  He deserves more.




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 02:24:39 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:24:39 -0000
Subject: Harry's CAN'T be the loner
In-Reply-To: <001701c09626$95e35080$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <96cq97+op8q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12209

Rebecca:"Do you really think that people will *let* Harry be alone 
after all of  the terrible things that are bound to happen to him?"

Let won't have anything to do with it.  Harry will disappear for a 
period after the end of the War.

Rebecca:"Do you really think he'll truely *want* to be left alone?"

Yes, I do think Harry will want to be left alone.

"Even though Harry might shun people in the beginning, I highly doubt 
he can keep himself isolated for long.He needs the support."

Harry will be highly fractured. He needs  some kind of support, but  
not all the "support" people will want to heap on him. The way I 
envision it, Hermione jealously guards his whereabouts and leaves him 
alone.   It helps him to know she and Ron are around the corner if 
need be.

Rebecca:"I believe his character has enough determination to survive 
emotionally and will be able to welcome people's comfort.  He can't be 
a loner, because there will always be someone, either Ron, Hermione, 
Mrs. Weasley, Sirius, or Dumbledore, to comfort him and drag him, if 
necessary, back to reality.  I can't see...alone.  He deserves more."

Determination will not shield him fully from what is to come. You 
mentioned Ron, Hermione, Mrs.Wealey, Sirius, and Dumbledore; suppose 
over half of them are now dead?

"Do you know what a friend is?" Harry said in a dead monotone. "A 
corpse. Ron. Sirius. Dumbledore. Ginny. They're all gone because of 
me. I watched some of them die. You know what Ginny's last words were? 
'I'm crying because I love you.'"

We agree he deserves more, and maybe he'll get it on the other side of 
this pain.

I mean, we all know he's going to be considerably traumatized by the 
end of the seventh book, what with so many people losing their lives, 
but 

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rebecca Boswell" <rboswell at m...> wrote:
> **** I still CAN'T see Harry as a loner in the long run!!! 
::sigh::****
> 
> Hedwig wrote:
> 
> "Hasn't he spent all his life alone? Wouldn't he be used to it by 
now?"
> 
> And I reply:
> 
>     He hasn't spent ALL of his life alone.  I think these four years 
in
> Hogwarts don't qualify as alone.  And I think he's rather 
comfortable in the
> graces of Ron and Hermione, and is enjoying it, so he wouldn't be 
able to
> shun himself from the world completely without someone bringing him 
back.
> 
> Jim wrote:
> 
> "Harry isn't naturally a loner, we agree on that; but his 
experiences
> will cost him very deeply.  He is going to suffer; he's going to 
watch
> good people die; he's going to watch people he loves die, some of 
them
> horribly.  He's likely to be afraid to love anyone because of the
> losses he's been through. He can't risk it.  It will take him time 
to
> sort out what's happened to him.  I believe the trials he's faced so
> far, including the graveyard, are nothing compared to what he's 
going
> to go through. He may be getting stronger emotionally, but he's 
going
> to need it all and then some."
> 
>     And I reply:
> 
>     Do you really think that people will *let* Harry be alone after 
all of
> the terrible things that are bound to happen to him?   Do you really 
think
> he'll truely *want* to be left alone?  Even though Harry might shun 
people
> in the beginning, I highly doubt he can keep himself isolated for 
long.  He
> needs the support.  I mean, we all know he's going to be 
considerably
> traumatized by the end of the seventh book, what with so many people 
losing
> their lives, but I believe his character has enough determination to 
survive
> emotionally and will be able to welcome people's comfort.  He can't 
be a
> loner, because there will always be someone, either Ron, Hermione, 
Mrs.
> Weasley, Sirius, or Dumbledore, to comfort him and drag him, if 
necessary,
> back to reality.  I can't see...alone.  He deserves more.




From keieru at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 14 03:19:26 2001
From: keieru at hotmail.com (Kat Li)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:19:26 -0500
Subject: unplottable
Message-ID: <F308p2VSAuzUreQiiAI00009abd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12210

Don't know if this has been discussed before, but...

So Unplottable is a spell that won't let you plot locations on a map.  
Convenient, and particularly useful for places like Durmstrang that don't 
want to be found.  But how far does its range extend?  It's a safe 
assumption that there are dozens of sizeable properties with Unplottable 
slapped on their grounds, like wizarding schools or places like Malfoy 
Mansion.  Does this mean that the innocent Muggles don't notice, when 
they're mapping out the British Isles, that the outer perimeter is quite a 
bit larger than what they've actually mapped out inside?

And then you've all the wizarding places unnaccessible by Muggles anyway, 
like Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade, and you've got to wonder if there's a 
little office in the Ministry of Magic where wizards are constantly casting 
forget-spells on poor unsuspecting Muggle cartographers... bit impractical 
though.

Or perhaps I should just leave well enough alone.  (:

Oh by the way, I'm a newbie to this list.  Hi!  I floated over from hpslash, 
and I've been enjoying the discussion.  This Unplottable thing has been 
bothering me ever since I read GoF, and I figured I'd let it bother someone 
else for a change.

Cheers,
Kat (:


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From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Wed Feb 14 03:35:27 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:35:27 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's resilience (was SHIPS:  Harry/Hermione/Ron)
Message-ID: <fb.119c349f.27bb56ff@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12211

In a message dated 2/13/2001 8:32:54 PM EST, jferer at yahoo.com writes:

<<  A better choice of words would be to say Harry might have 
 no long-term or intimate relationships, or be isolated.  In Harry's 
 case, if that happens it would probably be because of his experiences.
  >>

Thanks, Jim.  That is a much better way to put it.  My own mind somehow 
refuses to accept that Harry is necessarily monogamous.  He might be happiest 
with the freedom to have less-than-committed relationships with several 
persons.

I do think Harry is at least a bit of a loner in that he seems to value his 
independence.  He does get a lot of help from his friends, but he also has 
quite a tendency to wander off (sometimes into dangerous places) alone.

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 14 03:40:58 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 03:40:58 -0000
Subject: unplottable
In-Reply-To: <F308p2VSAuzUreQiiAI00009abd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96cuoa+oou0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12212

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kat Li" <keieru at h...> wrote:
> Don't know if this has been discussed before, but...
> 
> Does this mean that the innocent Muggles don't notice, when 
> they're mapping out the British Isles, that the outer perimeter is quite a 
> bit larger than what they've actually mapped out inside?

	I figure it's the Wizards who are kept from mapping things by the 
unplottable spell. Hogwarts would appear on Muggle maps as that little 
symbol the Ordinance Survey uses for ruins. Of course the disguising 
spell that conceals Hogwarts  must work on satellite cameras as well as 
curious Muggle eyes.


>
> Or perhaps I should just leave well enough alone.  (:
> 
> Oh by the way, I'm a newbie to this list.  

	Oh don't do that. We always want something to talk about and never 
tire of inventing explanations. And welcome to the list!

Pippin





From kathleen at carr.org  Wed Feb 14 04:08:12 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:08:12 -0500
Subject: SHIP: Ship-a-dee-doo-da
Message-ID: <200102140412.f1E4CNC09726@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 12213

OK, first of all, NO FAIR starting a shipping thread while my Internet 
connection is down!  (I had no access for 3 days! *sob* It was horrible!)

However, I am glad to see that the crew of the Good Ship R/H seems to be out 
in force!  Some really good points have been made on all sides.  Not sure 
exactly what I can add, but hey, that never stopped me from jumping in 
before,right? ;)


Amy Z wrote:
>I don't think succeeding in romance with Hermione, whether short- or
>long-term, would exactly alleviate Ron's disquietude (nice
>phrase)--although it would make his second-class status less pressing
>an issue.  That would be not because he now has something Harry
>doesn't, but because he's happy.  Success in love will make all sorts
>of unhappinesses seem unimportant.

I think this is a great point.  And, for the record, I don't think Ron's 
feelings for Hermione have anything to do with Harry.  Granted, they could 
become related later on if FITD comes into play, but I think, right now, the 
thing is, Ron likes Hermione.  He likes he because he likes her, not because 
Harry doesn't, or because he wants something Harry doesn't have, or any of 
those things.  And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that Hermione 
is probably the ONE person who doesn't think Ron is somehow inferior to Harry.
 For that reason, I think a relationship with Hermione would help Ron realize 
his own worth and help him see he isn't second-best.

Amy Z again:
>So I'm thinking that for Ron, what would be worse than Harry falling
>in love with Hermione, asking her out, and succeeding, would be Harry
>being indifferent to Hermione, but her asking him out and succeeding.
>That's what's so misery-inducing about HGTG for me.  And if Harry and
>Hermione did get together, this is how it would likely be, IMO,
>because IMO Harry has zero romantic interest in Hermione right now.

Wholehearted;y agree with that last bit.  Aside from being ardently R/H (hey, 
did you know that?<g>)  I dearly hope that Hermione doesn't develop feelings 
for Harry for that reason: he wouldn't like her back, IMO, and she would just 
end up being hurt.

I agree with the bit about it being worse for Ron in this scenario, but I 
think a major part of the reason that it would be worse for him is that he 
would have to stand by and watch Hermione get hurt.  I could see that being 
more painful for him than the jealousy thing, though that would certainly come 
into play, too.  With all the Ron-might-go-bad scenarios we have discussed, I 
don't think this one ever came up:  Ron turns all evil to get revenge on Harry 
for hurting Hermione.  He's a passionate guy; it's possible, I guess.


Ebony wrote:
<<One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to debunk HGTG
>is that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he
>doesn't have... the girl."

And Rina replied:
>Okay. This has never been my argument, so I'm probably not going to do the
>R/Hers any good here. <snip> I've been sitting here reading your message
>repeatedly, and damned if I can't even defend the above rationale that
>apparently some R/Hers have taken, because it's rather insulting. Who
>started that?!

Actually, as far as I know, this has never been any R/H-ers argument, at least 
on this list.  "HGTG" came up as an offhand way to talk about what many 
R/H-ers feel is the cliched nature of H/H (i.e. "If you have a problem with 
OBHWF as being to cliched, what about HGTG?").  I for one think that if Ron 
does "deserve" Hermione, it's because he cares about her and would treat her 
right (you know, once he finally gets a clue <g>).  I don't see why R/H has to 
have anything to do with Harry at all...other than the fact that he's their 
friend and would still need to be included.

Rina again:
>The relationship between Ron and Hermione should be just that - BETWEEN RON
>AND HERMIONE.

Bingo.  Exactly what I am trying to say.

B. said:
>These are not exchangeable concepts (i.e.
>saying you think HGTG is the reason people think Harry and Hermione
>will pair up doesn't automatically mean you think HGTG is the
>reason Ron and Hermione should pair up).

This says it more coherently than I ever could. :)


Penny wrote:
>I think HGTG was originally put forth as a reason why R/H types dislike
>the notion of H/H.  They argued that it wouldn't be "right" for the hero
>to get the girl (too cliche).  <snip> But, the H/H types are
>equally disturbed by the R/H position that Ron deserves the girl because
>he needs something that Harry doesn't have.

Again, I think this is a misinterpretation.  See above.  And I believe that 
last sentence is putting words into the mouths of R/H-ers; as I mentioned 
before, that is hardly the position I have seen being expressed.

Penny wrote:
>We argue that Hermione's feelings are just as important as
>Ron or Harry's feelings.  Where we disagree with the R/H types is that
>we interpret Hermione as having feelings for Harry (hence, HGTG and
>Sidekick gets the Girl as a consolation prize becomes doubly offensive
>to most of us).

And R/H-ers don't discount Hermione's feelings either, I might point out.  I 
think what our H/H compatriots fail to recognize is that our position is NOT 
based on "Harry has everything, give Ron the girl", but rather on the evidence 
we see of MUTUAL attraction between Ron and Hermione.  Obviously, we differ on 
this point, but that's no reason to accuse us of pushing Hermione off on 
someone she doesn't want! <g>

First mate Mo wrote:
>What I'm trying to say is that Harry stinks at giving us the dirt but if you
>look closely enough, you can tell where JKR is leading us.

LOL!  Can you imagine if we were seeing things from Lavender or Parvati's POV?
 We'd get a lot more gossip (and I bet we would know whether the robes were 
open at the front or not too!)

Amy Z wrote:
>This R/H type (32 years old with too many degrees) admits to seeing a
>very, very subtle H/H subtext.  Very subtle.  Almost nonexistent.

Well, this R/H type can also admit to seeing why others might interpret some 
things as H/H (and, as I have admitted before, I did flirt with the other side 
before finding the True R/H Way <g>).  But I see the things that others seems 
to see as "subtext" as the strengthening of the H/H friendship.  To me, it 
actually takes away from JKR's wonderfully subtle description of friendship to 
ascribe a romantic subtext to these things (the Kiss comes to mind, but there 
are many other examples as well.) That's the main reason H/H never rang true 
to me--it feels forced and it takes something away from Harry and Hermione's 
friendship. To me, anyway.

Zsenya:
>I don't see Ron/Hermione as having anything to do with Harry at all,
>to be perfectly honest.  At the moment, I think that the main reason
>that Ron likes Hermione is that he's a 14-year old boy and she
>happens to be the one person who makes his heart thump.

Exactly.  And I believe it was you, Zsenya, who pointed out that Ron was 
attracted to Hermione before her teeth were fixed, before she made herself 
pretty for the ball.  He's attracted to her for who she is, even if he hasn't 
realized it yet.

Mo
>Ron wears his heart on his sleeve.  Hermione is a bit more reserved.  I
>don't think R/H would be too obvious or too unlike JKR at all.  I really
>don't think that she has to add a *twist* to everything or will feel the
>need to.  Some things can be cut and dry and still be interesting and fun to
>read about. :)

What really struck me upon reading this was: yes, JKR does throw in plot 
twists and surprises.  But, she doesn't mess with the relationships and the 
characterizations she has been building up.  If Harry were to suddenly fall 
madly in love with Hermione, it would be completely out of character and not 
true to the portrait she has been building of him.  Yes, events can happen 
which can be a catalyst to a relationship between 2 characters (the Goblet of 
Fire or the Yule Ball for instance), but I don't see the characters suddenly 
turning into something else.  We all bought that Ron would react the way he 
did to the Goblet of Fire because we knew about his insecurities.  We bought 
his jealousy at the Yule Ball because we knew he liked Hermione.  I for one 
bought Hermione's reaction because I believe she liked Ron back and was 
irritated with him for his "you *are* a girl" thing.  (Obviously, other people 
have come up with other explanations for that, but there you are.  Either way, 
it fits the character.)

Then again, we apparently disagree in our interpretations of the characters, 
so that may affect how we see this as well.  I still feel that H/H would be 
completely jarring and out of character.

Enough rambling for now...


Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
glad to be back on board




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Feb 14 03:52:33 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:52:33 -0600
Subject: Harry's resilience
References: <96ca6f+hsn7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8A0101.DBD61F06@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12214

Hi --

Amy Z wrote:

> Jim:
> > The most plausible scenario of all for Harry. I really see him
> as "the man alone."  He may lose what he saved for everybody else.
>
> This may be wishful thinking on my part--I've been known to indulge
> in it--but I see Harry as being a lot more resilient than that.  He
> has already come through a really rotten childhood with his sense of
> self intact, and it's improving.  <snip> he seems to be
> getting more, not less, trusting, confident, resourceful, _____ (fill
> in your favorite sign of healthy emotional development).

I see him as being eventually resilient enough to rejoin the world.  I
agree with Jim that the graveyard scene in GoF was a walk in the park to
what he'll have to deal with before it's all over.  I think he might
well retreat into some solitary space (or perhaps an existence shared by
only his closest friends) for *awhile.*  But, like Amy, I see him
eventually wanting to create a life for himself, a life that includes
emotional intimacy with others.  He's spent some time gathering
emotional strength and learning how to connect with and trust other
people.  I can't imagine he would retreat from that entirely and
forever.  But, I think he'll have to rebuild his emotional resources for
some period of time after the ordeals of fighting (and defeating?)
Voldemort.

I don't picture him as avoiding marriage/commitment.  I think he'll
crave the stability and security that he can at last obtain with a solid
romantic attachment and a family.  I hardly think the boy who spent so
much of his childhood in horrid circumstances and then discovered a
sense of belonging, intimacy, friendship and love would turn his back on
all these wonderful things forever to return to a life of solitude.
But, like Jim, I don't think any of that will come easily or quickly
after the "War" is over.  I think there will be a period of solitude (or
perhaps just mostly solitude) and recovery for Harry ... most likely
anyway.  I think I probably picture the recovery period as being
reasonably short, whereas I gather Jim thinks it might be a longer
period of time.  My guess is a year, maybe 2.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 21:17:05 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:17:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A need for Filch?
Message-ID: <F168RbFGIUUJlNK9W1I0000296b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12215

House elves are not mentioned until Book2, so maybe they were an 
afterthought of JKR's.  Another thought - if there were house elves out and 
about all the time, the students might make the elves do all of their work 
for them.  Remember, the only house elf that left the kitchen was Dobby and 
he is a bit of a nutter.

Signe


Amanda wrote:

>I saw this one the other Yahoo HPforGrownups group, the one I get the
>odd email from. For once, it was an interesting question instead of the
>usual, Hi, I love HP, HP rules, etc. (I get the impression lots of them
>are very young).
>
>Question being--why does Filch have to clean up all the messes--like the
>mud that gets tracked in? Why don't the house elves do that? Why do they
>need Filch at all?
>
>Any thoughts? Was this discussed in old, pre-voluble-Amanda days?
>
>--Amanda
>

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From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 04:59:45 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 04:59:45 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Questions for R/Hers...
In-Reply-To: <009c01c0951a$49e4e5c0$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <96d3c1+lanb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12216

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rina Stewart" <rina at l...> wrote:
> Ebony wrote:
> 
> <<One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to 
debunk HGTG is that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves 
something that he doesn't have... the girl."
> 
> Validity of the above position aside... doesn't this reasoning work 
most 
> satisfactorily if the hero actually wants the girl, and the girl 
(you have 
> to admit the terminology involved in this position is troublesome) 
chooses 
> the alternate hero/sidekick over him?...
> 

Rina said (and I sniped as much as possible despite loving her whole 
post):
> 
> I've been sitting here reading your message repeatedly, and damned 
if I can't even defend the above rationale that apparently some 
R/Hers have taken, because it's rather insulting. Who started that?! 
LOL The relationship between Ron and Hermione should be just that - 
BETWEEN RON AND HERMIONE. 

Rina, I agree completely.  If Ron and Hermione get together as some 
sort of consolation prize, I want nothing of it.  I think they'll get 
together, and I will be happy if/when they do, but it's not about 
Harry at all, it's because of the two of them and the way I see them. 
The idea that they should get together that way is kind of gross.  It 
belittles Hermione as a character/person, and does the same to Ron 
and Harry too, for that matter.  I've never felt particularly sorry 
for Ron (except in the way I feel sorry for anyone who has to be that 
age - I remember knowing better and being dumb anyway); there's 
nothing wrong with him that a few years wisdom and a slight ebb in 
the raging hormones can't fix.  If I pity anyone, it's Harry.  He's 
the one who's life inspires pity, although I'm sure he'd be spitting 
mad if you told him that.  I'm not about to do it.  And I certainly 
wouldn't put him with someone as a door #3 booby prize either.  He's 
gonna get a wonderful woman to love him :D.  She may still be his 
best friend's kid sister right now, but I'm convinced Ginny's going 
to become a strong, wonderful woman, and she'll win Harry's heart on 
her own merit - no pity either way (sorry, it's almost Valentine's 
Day, and there's a little sap overdrive going on).  I want Ron and 
Hermione to get together because I think they're cute together, and I 
think JKR made them that way.  Harry factors into their someday 
relationship only as their best friend, as far as I'm concerned.

> 
> I don't like HGTG because I don't think the hero wants the girl, 
and the girl doesn't want the hero, and for the love of all that is 
holy, why isn't here a better way of phrasing this? <g> 

Hee!  I had to giggle at that last bit!  I agree - I've seen nothing 
that has made me thing that Harry has any feelings for Hermione, nor 
Hermione for Harry.  What I did see (and thought 'finally, they're 
starting to show their feelings!') in GoF is Ron acting stupid 
jealous about Krum, Hermione acting stupid jealous about Fleur, and 
Harry simply watching in amusement (until someday soon, he'll find 
himself stupid in love as well - sorry, have to take every 
opportunity to revel in H/G joy!).  I know that's not how everyone 
sees it, and that's fine, but I do see it that way.  No consolation 
prizes in *my* potterverse.

> 
> <<Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated, 
paired-off 
> future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't arguing.  
> 
> I see R/H talking about work, household chores, laundry, plans for 
the weekend, that vacation Ron is dragging her on because she's a 
workaholic, things like that. <g> They have friends in common, too, 
so they talk about and with them. 

Allow me to add a few:
They'll talk about the children, of course, and how hard it's going 
to be on Ruby and little Albie when their big sister Minnie goes off 
to Hogwarts next year.  They'll talk about the news at the MoM and 
Ron and Arthur's ammendment to the Muggle Protection Act, and about 
Hermione's latest book, and what to get Harry and Ginny for their 
anniversary ;), and who to get to babysit on Friday when they go to 
the opening gala for Weasley Wizard Wheezes' newest shop ('is it the 
8th, or 9th one, Herm?' - '8th, Ron sweetheart, remember we talked 
them out of opening one in that muggle shopping center.').  They'll 
talk about Neville's new experimental breed of snapdragon 
that 'breathes' fire, and about the latest letter from Charlie in 
Romania and the new baby Bill and Fleur are expecting, and the 
impending visit of Hermione's parents.  They'll talk about the best 
charm to use to widen the doorway for when Hagrid and Olympe come to 
dinner next weekend, and Ron will be shocked when Hermione tells him 
Olympe is going to announce that she's pregnant, until he remembers 
how strangely giddy Hagrid was acting last week when they had lunch 
at the Three Broomsticks...

How's that for an afternoon's conversation?
Kimberly,
Who's beginning to be tempted by fanfic after all.  
Must... resist....






From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 14 05:19:15 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:19:15 -0500
Subject: Harry's future..was Harry's resilience
References: <96ca6f+hsn7@eGroups.com> <3A8A0101.DBD61F06@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <003a01c09645$ad8bbd20$366dd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12217


----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>

> But, like Jim, I don't think any of that will come easily or quickly
> after the "War" is over.  I think there will be a period of solitude (or
> perhaps just mostly solitude) and recovery for Harry ... most likely
> anyway.  I think I probably picture the recovery period as being
> reasonably short, whereas I gather Jim thinks it might be a longer
> period of time.  My guess is a year, maybe 2.
>
> Penny

I see him as taking a gap year and maybe retreating for awhile (right
ebony?), then getting a flat with Hermione, but not dating her yet..just
roommates...getting a job... learning to swing dance...having a torrid
affair with ..... oops wrong list....

carole





From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Feb 14 05:51:48 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 05:51:48 -0000
Subject: unplottable
In-Reply-To: <F308p2VSAuzUreQiiAI00009abd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96d6dk+ftn2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12218

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kat Li" <keieru at h...> wrote:

> And then you've all the wizarding places unnaccessible by Muggles
> anyway, like Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade, and you've got to wonder
> if there's a little office in the Ministry of Magic where wizards
> are constantly casting forget-spells on poor unsuspecting Muggle
> cartographers... bit impractical though.

I imagine that Hogsmeade is not INACCESSIBLE to Muggles but merely 
disguised as something else, as Hogwarts Castle is disguised as a 
ruin.

Diagon Alley and Platform 9 3/4, and probably some other places, I 
imagine as being in some pocket out of the Muggle universe. That 
would also be how cars, houses, etc can be bigger inside than on 
the outside. 

So the Muggle cartographers can map all of Britain that is in the 
Muggle universe, no gaps, and it would differ from wizarding maps 
because the wizarding maps have a symbol at each place where there is 
a dimensional door/portal -- the symbol is in some ways like an 
asterisk that tells you to look elsewhere for the footnote, in this 
case the footnote being a maplet of what is inside the dimensional 
pocket, but maybe wizarding maps have hyperlinks and you just click 
on the asterisk....




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Feb 14 06:15:33 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 06:15:33 -0000
Subject: James' house / Hagrid's house
In-Reply-To: <96blgb+cqge@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96d7q5+cknf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12219

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> "Amy Z"  wrote:
> > BTW, how does everyone know Hagrid was a Gryffindor?  Is it from 
the same interview, or is it in the books?
> 
>Milz wrote:
> I think it was revealed in the Scholastic Books interview. Rowling 
> affirmed that Hagrid was in Gryffindor and Voldemort slandered 
Hagrid with rumors of raising werewolf pups and the like.<<<<<<<<

Yes, it was confirmed in a chat, plus one of the questions she got 
was something along the lines of "Was James a Gryffindor seeker like 
Harry?"  JKR's reply was that James was a chaser, but she made no 
comment on whether he was Gryff or not.  I take this to mean that 
yes, he was in Gryff.; it probably didn't even occur to her that we 
might wonder otherwise.

>Milz:
> I'm pretty sure the rumors that Hagrid was in Hufflepuff came from 
> that vague paragraph in SS/PS where Hagrid tells Harry that 
everyone thinks Hufflepuff is full of duffers. While that paragraph 
doesn't state Hagrid was a Hufflepuff it gives the impression he 
was.<<<<<<<<<<<<

There was also the Scholastic quiz, which has apparently been changed 
since the chat, in which one of the questions asked what house Hagrid 
was in and the 'correct' answer was "Hufflepuff"...

Kelley 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 14 12:31:05 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:31:05 -0000
Subject: Harry's resilience (was SHIPS:  Harry/Hermione/Ron)
In-Reply-To: <fb.119c349f.27bb56ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <96dtq9+10v08@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12220

Jim wrote:

> <<  A better choice of words would be to say Harry might have 
>  no long-term or intimate relationships, or be isolated.  In Harry's 
>  case, if that happens it would probably be because of his 
experiences.


Elizabeth wrote:

> Thanks, Jim.  That is a much better way to put it.  My own mind 
somehow 
> refuses to accept that Harry is necessarily monogamous.  He might be 
happiest 
> with the freedom to have less-than-committed relationships with 
several 
> persons.

When I made the "not embittered and alienated" comment I wasn't 
referring to singleness--which, I agree, is a fine choice--but to an 
inability to make lasting relationships.  This inability is what I 
*don't* see in Harry, thus far and despite an upbringing that 
could give anyone "the stability of a slug" (LOL Ginny Love!).

He is definitely proud and independent, but he also almost always 
tells Ron and Hermione before he goes off to do something wildly 
dangerous.  He consults with them about almost everything--how many 
times in the books does something happen to him and the next scene is 
Harry going to the common room to tell R & H the whole story, and the 
three of them huddling to sort it out?  He reads them his letters from 
Sirius even before reading them privately.  He's even, per our 
discussion about "The Dream" last week, becoming a lot more intimate 
with adults--willing to trust them, take his problems to them, ask 
them the questions that are on his mind.  I was just listening to GF 
and I just love the give-and-take between Harry and Sirius on the 
whole scar thing--he's learning what it means to have a parent, 
someone who's *supposed* to drop everything and risk everything to 
take care of you.  All of these things are what teach people to be in 
long-term relationships.  

So Harry may voluntarily remain a swingin' single, and lots of lucky 
women (&/or men) will be happy with that, but so far I don't see him 
developing a fear of intimacy.

Amy Z




From andrea at noembromation.com.br  Wed Feb 14 12:51:21 2001
From: andrea at noembromation.com.br (andrea at noembromation.com.br)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:51:21 -0000
Subject: Oscar 2001
Message-ID: <96dv09+9qhn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12221

Hi, everyone!

Have you checked this year's Academy Awards nominees list? We have 2 
HP-related nominations: Julie Walters (Molly Weasley) as Best Actress 
in a Supporting Role (for Billy Elliot), and our (now) dear 
screenwriter Steve Kloves for Best Adapted Screenplay (for Wonder 
Boys). 

I'll be cheering for them on March 25th, looking forward to next 
year, when we'll see Alan Rickman in the list for his role as Snape 
(and maybe some other nominations, any very early guess?).

Andrea
who still thinks Jamie Bell (Billy Elliot) would be a *perfect* Ron 
(with a dye-job, of course)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 14 13:00:32 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:00:32 -0000
Subject: Casting call
Message-ID: <96dvhg+5vai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12222

Okay, campers, Julie Walters thinks they're gonna start shooting CoS 
this year (if they're going to even try to make all 7 while keeping 
the same three actors as the Trio they have to shoot close to one per 
year), so the time has come for us to weigh in:

Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg Kinnear, we need a Brit!)
&
Who should play Riddle?

Amy Z
getting desperate, thinking of sneaking into bad movies to watch 
trailer (OotP just can't come out fast enough)

-------------------------------------------------------------
"And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
"Aaah, I was going to have a fight.  Okay, I'll lose a bet."
"Yeah, you'll be betting I'll win my fight. . . ."
                               --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 14 13:08:40 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:08:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting call
References: <96dvhg+5vai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8A8357.FDDDC94E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12223

Amy Z wrote:

> Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg Kinnear, we need a Brit!)

Pity we've no access to a time-turner; Eric Idle would be soooo good as
Lockhart. And pity that Val Kilmer's not British. Sigh. Both of them
have such wonderful cheesy grins.

Is an HP trailer out?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 14 13:10:55 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:10:55 -0600
Subject: WAY OT--[Fwd: Anna Kournikova Virus Fix]
Message-ID: <3A8A83DF.20E519FF@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12224

This is entirely off-topic, but since I received at least six messages
with this virus, I thought a few of you might be interested in the fix.
I asked the sender to make sure it was legit.

--Amanda

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: FW: Anna Kournikova Virus Fix
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:12:31 -0600
From: Michael Seminara <Michael.Seminara at otlcorp.com>
To: "'Amanda Lewanski'" <editor at texas.net>

You are getting, or simply ARE paranoid. BEHIND YOU!!!!  Seriously, this
is
a "fix" in case somhow you had succesfully opened the attachement ot the
"virus: letter.  it is all legit, and executed by Gambrinus Corp's own
Compu-geek.
M

-----Original Message-----
From: Amanda Lewanski [mailto:editor at texas.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 3:08 PM
To: Michael Seminara
Subject: Re: FW: Anna Kournikova Virus Fix


Okay, is *this* one legit? What a great virus, sending a "fix" after a
dummy
virus message, getting you to open the .exe that's the *real* virus...

or am I getting paranoid?

--Amandoid

Michael Seminara wrote:

> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From:         Rick Boynton
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 10:19 AM
> > Subject:      Anna Kournikova Virus Fix
> >
> > Symantec (Norton) has issued an antivirus solution which we have now
> > applied to our email server. This fix should preclude further forwarding
> > of the email virus which hit yesterday. Several of our users
inadvertently
> > opened the attachment which triggered an "avalanche" of virus-infected
> > messages.
> >
> > Though our server will prevent further spreading, we must now rid the
> > virus from the computers where it was launched from. We have developed a
> > small program which will remove the virus from the Windows registry as
> > well as removing any Visual Basic Script (VBS) files from the local
> > computer. Even if you did not open the virus, it is safe to run this
> > program. Please follow the instructions below to remove the virus from
> > your computer:
> >
> > 1. Delete any messages remaining in your inbox which has the virus
> > attachment.
> > 2. Go to your deleted items folder and remove (at least) those messages.
> > 3. Copy the attached file to your desktop. Do this by clicking on the
> > attachment paper clip and selecting to save to disk. Save it to your
> > computer desktop.
> > 4. Close any open programs, including Outlook.
> > 5. Double click on the icon to start it. The process should take ~3
> > minutes or so.
> > 6. When the program has completed, a "Finish" button will appear. Click
it
> > to close the program.
> > 7. Delete the icon from the desktop.
> >
> > Please call the Help Desk if you have questions regarding this
procedure.
> >
> >
> > ...Rick
> > Help Desk Support
> >
> >  <<RemoveAnna.exe>>
> >
>
>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                      Name: RemoveAnna.exe
>    RemoveAnna.exe    Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream)
>                  Encoding: base64



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 14 13:54:17 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:54:17 -0000
Subject: SHIP: romance and casting ?cary elwes?
Message-ID: <96e2m9+rjk4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12225

In today's Salon mangazine, a romance expert analyses various 
literary romances from A Tale of 2 Cities, Jane Eyre, Wuthuring 
Heights, Anna Karinena, etc. The bit that I thought some of the more 
intense shippers here might go to town on (a ferry?) is this:
"I write in "Intimate Partners" about caretakers and wounded birds, 
which is a very common type of relationship. At the beginning 
of "Jane Eyre," he's definitely the caretaker, he's given her the 
job, and as is the case with parents, she can't quite understand the 
mystery of him, just as we all can't understand the mystery of these 
distant figures who have all the goodies. Then in the end there's 
almost a generational reversal, but certainly a power reversal. They 
never work out what I'd consider an ideal relationship, which is to 
say that sometimes she's in the driver's seat and sometimes he's in 
the driver's seat. That's when relationships work the best."

I'm certainly not saying definitively that Harry is likely to be 
the "wounded bird" in a relationship (personally, I'm of half a mind 
that Ron (and to some extent, Draco, at least as I see him) have 
those characteristics) but I did like her description of an Ideal 
Relationship - and to pull in some "future" fanfics as examples, in 
PoU, Harry and Hermione are both inthe driver's seat at certain 
times, in ASA, at this point in the story, Sirius and Cordelia share 
the seat as well. 
However, if you take Hermione's word as truth, in Trouble in 
Paradise, she definitely feels that she is not in the driver's seat - 
that Ron is pretty much in control of what they, as a couple, do, 
where they, as a couple, go, and what they, as a couple, do with 
their galleons. 
And I'm now wondering, through the prism of all this great 
literature, whether JKR will, if she does anything shippy in the 
books among the major characters, on a long term basis, anyway, 
reflect this real Relationship Dynamic issue.

BTW - the interview ends with the following: 
Interviewer: So what you're saying is that the most challenging part 
of love, the part where people hash out the business of actually 
living together for the rest of their lives, isn't really the stuff 
of a great novel. 

Maggie Scarf: No, I think it's the stuff of a great biography. 

As we were saying just the other day, the "what are they going to 
talk about in 6 years" really isn't the makings of a novel, or even a 
fanfic. And on some days it might be really mundane, all about the 
kids and the jobs and the cars - but other times, it's the movies, 
the books, the email lists : ) -and sometimes (hopefully at least 
once a day) it's the Grande Passion...


Now, on to the casting:
All my favorite Lockhart possibilities have dark hair and would look 
ridiculous with light hair - Hugh Grant, Rupert Everett, john Lynch 
(from Sliding Doors) and the little voice in the back of my mind that 
keeps saying Geoffry Rush (yeah, he's australian. So?). Julian Sands 
has the look, but not the precise level of humerous smarminess. 
So the one and only option is the "if I had a time machine and could 
bring him from the set of Lady Jane into the present, he'd make a 
great Draco Malfoy in Cassandra Claire's series"...Cary Elwes. The 
Dread Pirate Robert himself!




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Feb 14 14:06:33 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 14 Feb 2001 06:06:33 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] casting ?cary elwes?
Message-ID: <20010214140633.29404.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12226

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010214/9d8416e2/attachment.ksh>

From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 14 14:21:19 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:21:19 -0000
Subject: the trouble with harry (the 5 year old's perspective)
Message-ID: <96e48v+hvg8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12227

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/style/columns/familyalmanac/A1925-2001Feb13.html is from today's 
Family Almanac advice column, where a parent wrote in & asked what to 
do about her 1st grader who, since his parents read Sorcerer's Stone 
to him, has been afraid to be alone. The expert says, "The Potter 
books teach children that some people are good, some are evil, some 
are stupid and bigoted and not to be endured. These are important 
lessons, but they are too much for a 5- or 6-year-old."

She then says that someone from Scholastic said that 8 to 10 is the 
appropriate starting age for the books, and says, without ANY 
references at all, "...most knowledgeable reviewers think 10 is a 
better starting age."

Wondering what those of you with children in the 5 to 10 year age 
group think of this...

ANd wishing and hoping that those who want to ban the books in 
schools don't use *this* as ammunition to keep it out of elementary 
school libraries




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 14 14:42:19 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:42:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the trouble with harry (the 5 year old's perspective)
References: <96e48v+hvg8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004301c09694$56534d80$0b68d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12228


----- Original Message -----
From: <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu>


> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
> dyn/style/columns/familyalmanac/A1925-2001Feb13.html is from today's
> Family Almanac advice column, where a parent wrote in & asked what to
> do about her 1st grader who, since his parents read Sorcerer's Stone
> to him, has been afraid to be alone. The expert says, "The Potter
> books teach children that some people are good, some are evil, some
> are stupid and bigoted and not to be endured. These are important
> lessons, but they are too much for a 5- or 6-year-old."
>
> She then says that someone from Scholastic said that 8 to 10 is the
> appropriate starting age for the books, and says, without ANY
> references at all, "...most knowledgeable reviewers think 10 is a
> better starting age."
>
> Wondering what those of you with children in the 5 to 10 year age
> group think of this...

A lot depends upon how skittish your 5 - 6 yo is.  I started reading SS to
my (now 7yo) last year when he was 6.  But he's never been afraid of the
dark and loves to go to the haunted mansion at Disney world, and has never
told me about any nightmares that he might have had...not sure if he's ever
had nightmares.

Now the neighbor across the street said her 10 yo began reading the books
and was spooked by them, so her 7 yo hasn't touched them since he knows he
gets creeped out at little things.

Another indication might be how they handle being seperated from parents.
When he was 5yo Brian (my son) spent a whole week with another family (yes
we knew them...) at the beach.  Our neighbor's son (his name is Brian
too...so I'll just call him the neighbor child) got scared and wanted to go
home halfway through one night at our house....honest the house is not
haunted.

Brian is the type that thrives on something new.  The neighbor is much more
cautious.  A lot also depends on the chid's attention span.  Brian was very
verbal, understood all the words and followed the action intently.  Another
child with slower verbal skills might not get the whole story and just key
in on the dramatic scary parts.

By 8 or 9 the most children should be able to handle up to GoF and by 10
they can read them for themselves and make their own choice.  I did
paraphrase the chapter in GoF where V is reincorporated for Brian...didn't
want to introduce the image of the grotesque baby form V had taken before
reincorporation...I'm planning on sharing my paraphrased version when I do
the chapter summary for that chapter (Flesh, Blood, and Bone)...it has a bit
to do with Squidward from nickolodeon's Sponge Bob...and Voldemort soup....

This is not an expert opinion...just what I've observed in kids this age.

carole



> ANd wishing and hoping that those who want to ban the books in
> schools don't use *this* as ammunition to keep it out of elementary
> school libraries
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>





From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 14 15:00:22 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:00:22 -0000
Subject: The Appearance of the Number 12
Message-ID: <96e6i6+sfbg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12229

Has anyone else noticed that the number 12 keeps cropping up?
There are twelve Christmas trees set up in the Great Hall each year.
There are twelve different ways to use Dragon's Blood.
Harry thought, "he'd have gambled twelve Sorceror's Stones that Snape 
had just left the room." SS-15

If this point has been brought up before, forgive me. I am new. I 
have been trying to plow through the over 12000 messages in here, but 
that takes time. hmmm 12000 messages ... there it is again ... just 
kidding...

Muggle Huggles
Doreen_Iowa




From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 14 15:11:00 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael oren)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:11:00 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the trouble with harry (the 5 year old's perspective)
References: <96e48v+hvg8@eGroups.com> <004301c09694$56534d80$0b68d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <OE28hvyVqr7NoUDry4200007093@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12230

Hi Heidi, Carole,

(back from a rather short slumber)

My daughter is 4.5 yo. She's very mature and we share many of our thoughts and worries with her, but I don't think she'll be ready for HP in the next 3-4 years. As a child growing in Israel, she has quite a burden to handle. She already knows what war is and she understands the meaning of "being killed". Still, she needs to cope with the death of cartoon Bambi's mother and be able to listen to little-red-riding-hood without bursting into tears before she can be read any of the HP books.

It is possible that she's somewhat over-sensitive (as opposed to Brian). She did run screaming out of Winnie-the-Pooh show after the third time Pooh fell on his head, but that was almost two years ago, and she enjoyed the same show not long ago. I think she's a perfect example of a child who needs to grow up before enjoying the HP books.

yael

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carole Estes 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 4:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] the trouble with harry (the 5 year old's perspective)



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu>


  > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
  > dyn/style/columns/familyalmanac/A1925-2001Feb13.html is from today's
  > Family Almanac advice column, where a parent wrote in & asked what to
  > do about her 1st grader who, since his parents read Sorcerer's Stone
  > to him, has been afraid to be alone. The expert says, "The Potter
  > books teach children that some people are good, some are evil, some
  > are stupid and bigoted and not to be endured. These are important
  > lessons, but they are too much for a 5- or 6-year-old."
  >
  > She then says that someone from Scholastic said that 8 to 10 is the
  > appropriate starting age for the books, and says, without ANY
  > references at all, "...most knowledgeable reviewers think 10 is a
  > better starting age."
  >
  > Wondering what those of you with children in the 5 to 10 year age
  > group think of this...

  A lot depends upon how skittish your 5 - 6 yo is.  I started reading SS to
  my (now 7yo) last year when he was 6.  But he's never been afraid of the
  dark and loves to go to the haunted mansion at Disney world, and has never
  told me about any nightmares that he might have had...not sure if he's ever
  had nightmares.

  Now the neighbor across the street said her 10 yo began reading the books
  and was spooked by them, so her 7 yo hasn't touched them since he knows he
  gets creeped out at little things.

  Another indication might be how they handle being seperated from parents.
  When he was 5yo Brian (my son) spent a whole week with another family (yes
  we knew them...) at the beach.  Our neighbor's son (his name is Brian
  too...so I'll just call him the neighbor child) got scared and wanted to go
  home halfway through one night at our house....honest the house is not
  haunted.

  Brian is the type that thrives on something new.  The neighbor is much more
  cautious.  A lot also depends on the chid's attention span.  Brian was very
  verbal, understood all the words and followed the action intently.  Another
  child with slower verbal skills might not get the whole story and just key
  in on the dramatic scary parts.

  By 8 or 9 the most children should be able to handle up to GoF and by 10
  they can read them for themselves and make their own choice.  I did
  paraphrase the chapter in GoF where V is reincorporated for Brian...didn't
  want to introduce the image of the grotesque baby form V had taken before
  reincorporation...I'm planning on sharing my paraphrased version when I do
  the chapter summary for that chapter (Flesh, Blood, and Bone)...it has a bit
  to do with Squidward from nickolodeon's Sponge Bob...and Voldemort soup....

  This is not an expert opinion...just what I've observed in kids this age.

  carole



  > ANd wishing and hoping that those who want to ban the books in
  > schools don't use *this* as ammunition to keep it out of elementary
  > school libraries
  >
  >
  >
  > Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
  > website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
  our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
  groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
  >
  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  >
  >
  >
  >



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
           
                    www.    
             
       
       

  Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
  website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 14 15:27:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:27:28 -0000
Subject: How do owls do that?
In-Reply-To: <96cldf+ppr3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96e850+8h2h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12231

While we are on the subject of owls, I read that Hagrid sends Harry a 
message via Hedwig, telling him that the Dragon egg had hatched. SS 
Considering where the owlery is ... would it not have been easier to 
just tell Harry in person, than to go fetch an owl? (I am not sure 
where the owlery is located in regards to Hagrid's Hut)

Also, when Hagrid & Harry were on the island, with the Dursleys, 
Hagrid reached into his coat pockets and used an owl to send a 
message to Dumbledore. Why didn't he use that owl again, rather than 
use Hedwig? Does Hagrid have his own owl? Or does he just borrow one 
from the school?



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> Meredith:" We see several times (most specifically in GoF when 
Hedwig 
> is finding Sirius) that when sending owl post, the owls can find 
> people pretty much anywhere they are, right?  Why then in PoA did 
> nobody ever send an owl to Sirius and just follow it on broomstick 
to 
> find his whereabouts?"
> 
> Here's my offering:
> 
> Owls do things like fly hundreds, even thousands of miles, in a 
short 
> time, so in many cases they aren't physically "flying" the way we 
> understand it.  Of course, we have examples of brooms making 
> ridiculously long journeys (Charlie's friends who carried Norbert 
to 
> Roumania).
> 
> It's possible to make a location Unplottable so it can't be found 
on a 
> map; Hermione mentions it in GoF.  It should therefore be possible 
to 
> make something Unfollowable as well.




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 15:49:24 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:49:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting call
In-Reply-To: <96dvhg+5vai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010214154924.22316.qmail@web5205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12232

OK, this guy is neither an actor nor a Brit. In fact,
he's a French figure skater. But I think he looks like
GL!
http://figureskating.online.fr/gp_tl00_postfd5.jpg

I can imagine almost a whole cast of skaters who could
pass for HP characters... 

Anne (who's a major skating fan, besides HP)

--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg
> Kinnear, we need a Brit!)
> &


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 14 15:59:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:59:52 -0000
Subject: A need for Filch?
In-Reply-To: <F168RbFGIUUJlNK9W1I0000296b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96ea1o+ojgu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12233

> >Question being--why does Filch have to clean up all the messes--
like the
> >mud that gets tracked in? Why don't the house elves do that? Why 
do they
> >need Filch at all?

Maybe, the house elves stay busy in the kitchen, just as most cooks & 
dishwashers do in muggle schools. You see the janitors mopping up but 
you rarely see the cooks & dishwashers unless you go back into the 
kitchen. 

Fred & George have seen the house elves because they have sneaked 
down into the kitchen late at night. I would know if I had house 
elves, cuz I am a late-night-kitchen-sneaker-into like George & Fred.


  





From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Wed Feb 14 16:11:41 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:11:41 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How do owls do that?
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BDFC@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 12234


** While we are on the subject of owls, I read that Hagrid 
** sends Harry a 
** message via Hedwig, telling him that the Dragon egg had hatched. SS 
** Considering where the owlery is ... would it not have been easier to 
** just tell Harry in person, than to go fetch an owl? (I am not sure 
** where the owlery is located in regards to Hagrid's Hut)

Maybe Harry send Hedwig down to sit with Hagrid so he could know as soon as
possible about the dragon?  That would explain why he'd use Hedwig and not a
different owl.

** Also, when Hagrid & Harry were on the island, with the Dursleys, 
** Hagrid reached into his coat pockets and used an owl to send a 
** message to Dumbledore. Why didn't he use that owl again, rather than 
** use Hedwig? Does Hagrid have his own owl? Or does he just borrow one 
** from the school?
 
I think Hagrid probably borrows one when he needs to use one.  I think we
would have met his owl by now if he didn't.  We've met all of the various
Weasley owls and Hagrid's other various animals, surely we would have heard
from a cage in Hagrid's hut if there had been one.

Meredith, who's starting to think way too much about owls!



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Feb 14 16:23:53 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:23:53 -0000
Subject: Thin Tall Wizard (filk)
Message-ID: <96ebep+h08r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12235

Thin Tall Wizard

(to the tune of Pinball Wizard)

(THE SCENE: Before Hogwarts Castle. Enter HARRY POTTER and REBEUS 
HAGRID)

RH: He came here as a young boy
And he is now silver-haired
HP: He's the Headmaster at Hogwarts
He's a man beyond compare 
RH: He doesn't micromanage 
Yet you see his hand in all
BOTH: That deft Dumbledore guy
Is always right on the ball!

RH: He found a use for dragon's blood
To be exact, there's twelve.
He puts werewolves on the payroll
He writes paychecks for the elves
HP: He pushed Malfoy into checkmate
He runs circles around Fudge
BOTH: That deft Dumbledore guy
Is someone you can't misjudge!

BOTH: He's a thin tall wizard 
He is the very best!
A thin tall wizard
There is simply no contest!

BOTH: Why do we think he does it? We both know!
He's a force for Good!

HP: After mom and dad were murdered
He dropped me off on Privet Drive 
But, hey, nobody's perfect,
The main thing's that I now thrive 
He guides me to maturity 
With each pithy epigram
BOTH: That deft Dumbledore guy
Follows a great lesson plan!

BOTH: He's a thin tall wizard
We just tell it like it is
A thin tall wizard
A wizard who's truly a whiz

RH: He may seem slow and elderly
Match the geezer stereotype
But when there's need for action
He lives up to all the hype
HP: What he did to Grindelwald
He'll to do Voldemort
BOTH: That deft Dumbledore guy'll
Use Voldy to mop up the floor!

BOTH: He's a thin tall wizard
A man who really rocks
A thin tall wizard
Let's hope he gets those socks!

    - CMC






From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 14 16:37:07 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:37:07 -0000
Subject: I have some Sirius questions here ... seriously :)
Message-ID: <96ec7j+44j4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12236

When it was described about Sirius killing the 13 people, 12 muggles 
(there is that number 12 again) and one wizard, Sirius is said to 
have been laughing. Is this just a "repeated rumor"? If not, why 
would he laugh if he were innocent and witnessing Pettigrew actually 
doing the murders?

Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?

Why didn't Sirius make Harry his Secret Keeper so that he could hide 
and Harry would know where he was? Then, Harry could go live with 
him... couldn't he? 

Doreen_Iowa

"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than 
our abilities." Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Chamber of 
Secrets




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 16:38:04 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:38:04 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <20010214154924.22316.qmail@web5205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96ec9c+ep9l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12237

First, Anne, your fugure skating pic won't load. Any chance you could 
tell us who it is? I love figure skating!

Second, I'd like to nominate THIS man for someone... I reckon he 
could play Quirrel, unless I'm remembering his physical description 
incorrectly. It's Joseph Fiennes. I'm not up on the casting, tho, I 
just think he's sexy. Ohhh, maybe we could save him for Sirius, 
especially in the second group of pics. 

http://www.geocities.com/jcf1743/seite6snp1.html 
http://www.geocities.com/jcf1743/seite4mags1.html

Heather

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> OK, this guy is neither an actor nor a Brit. In fact,
> he's a French figure skater. But I think he looks like
> GL!
> http://figureskating.online.fr/gp_tl00_postfd5.jpg
> 
> I can imagine almost a whole cast of skaters who could
> pass for HP characters... 
> 
> Anne (who's a major skating fan, besides HP)
> 
> --- Amy Z <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg
> > Kinnear, we need a Brit!)
> > &
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 14 17:21:39 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:21:39 -0000
Subject: Ron & Quidditch
In-Reply-To: <008c01c093be$ce4b8920$ab3770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96eer3+tc65@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12238

> "Ron's not on the team because he doesn't have a broom up to 
standard. So
> far as we've seen, the players on the teams provide their own 
brooms,
> however they obtain them."
Let's face it, if he'd really shown any talent, he'd have
> been given a half-decent broom by some means, and one of the 
existing team
> members would have been ousted from the team.  

I dont think that Ron is not a Quidditch Player because he lacks a 
broom. In SS, once Harry is recognized as a valuable Quidditch 
Player, he is sent a broom, with a note attached from Professor 
McGonagall, saying not to open the package at the table. So... did 
she send him the broom? Or did someone else send it to him and I 
forgot? (I am re-reading SS and have not come across who sent Harry 
the broom, yet)

If McGonagall did send Harry the broom, she could send Ron one as 
well.

Doreen_Iowa




From chessdiva at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 14 17:28:52 2001
From: chessdiva at hotmail.com (Lisa Gansky)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:28:52 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting call
Message-ID: <F250NPHsWocMMXK6J2D0000204c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12239




>From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>

>Okay, campers, Julie Walters thinks they're gonna start shooting CoS
>this year (if they're going to even try to make all 7 while keeping
>the same three actors as the Trio they have to shoot close to one per
>year), so the time has come for us to weigh in:
>
>Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg Kinnear, we need a Brit!)

hmmm... how about Joseph Fiennes? He's amusing to watch... :)

>&
>Who should play Riddle?

Easy. Tim Roth... LOL. Okay, so he's in his 30s (i think?)... but still... 
he can look young :)

~Lisa
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From lexac3 at usa.net  Wed Feb 14 17:29:59 2001
From: lexac3 at usa.net (Alex Corvus)
Date: 14 Feb 2001 10:29:59 MST
Subject: OT: Fandom.com (was Re: More casting news - Ginny Weasley etc.)
Message-ID: <20010214172959.25369.qmail@nwcst282.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12240

Finally catching up on my digests and I saw this:

Keith wrote:
>I'm posting that info on the Fandom board, hope that's OK.

You mean Fandom.com board, right?

This is not an idle distinction. Fandom Inc. is trying to trademark the word
Fandom as we speak, they've sent out nasty legal letters to the webmaster of
fandom.tv trying to intimidate her into giving up her domain name, and there's
a boycott of Fandom.com going on over their tactics. I'm not going to let them
try to hijack my community without saying something about it. They are not the
sum-total of "Fandom."

Despite participating in the boycott, I know there's an HP fandomain at F.com,
so this affects this fandom directly. Are people aware of the boycott that's
going on and the push to distinguish F.com and F,Inc from the more general
term "Fandom?"

Alexa,
getting all Hermione-ish. Line up at the right for your SPEW buttons.


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1



From john at walton.to  Wed Feb 14 17:33:41 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:33:41 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the trouble with harry (the 5 year old's perspective)
In-Reply-To: <OE28hvyVqr7NoUDry4200007093@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B6B071F5.BDE5%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 12241

I definitely think that the scariness factor depends on the child. My
youngest cousin is 5, and he's read (well, listened to, because he's
dyslexic) the first three books (my aunt, quite rightly, thinks that GoF
might be a little advanced for him this year) and LOVED them. He's also
listened to The Dark Is Rising sequence by Susan Cooper (read to him by my
aunt and uncle) and loved those -- and they can definitely be said to be
darker than HP.

OTOH, his older sister (8) was really freaked by them, and gave up because
she thought they were too scary. Go figure.

I think it's something about boys in our family. I had a reading age of
14-16 when I was 8, and was in the top literary percentile all through
elementary school. ::halo starts shining:: Maths, on the other hand...
::halo disappears in a small "pop!"::

--John

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From msl at fc.net  Wed Feb 14 17:39:37 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:39:37 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Severus Snape
In-Reply-To: <012f01c0958f$9202e8a0$863770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96efsp+9n76@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12242

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:

> 
> QUESTIONS/COMMENTS
> 
> (1) How does Snape really feel about Igor Karkaroff?  He seems to 
> pity him, but he is also angry at him (he did betray him in the 
> courtroom - did Snape know this?) .

I believe that Snape thinks Karkaroff is a morally weak,
intellectually dishonest punk-ass chump and loser.  Karkaroff is too
cowardly to stand up for his beliefs and for Voldemort but also too
intellectually dishonest to admit that his beliefs were actually wrong
and convert wholeheartedly to the side of the good guys; his courtroom
conversion was nothing but a ploy to save his own skin.  Only a sense
of professional courtesy prevents Snape from hitting Karkaroff with a
Perma-Wedgie jinx and kicking his butt up and down the halls of
Hotwarts.

> (2) Does Lucius Malfoy have Snape's ear . . . or another part of his
body?

As a the most prominent alumnus of Slytherin save Voldemort, Lucius
Malfoy has a deep influence on Snape's outward behavior, which I think
is calculated to convince Malfoy and other exonerated Death Eaters
that Snape might still be loyal to the principles behind their cause.

> (3) What is Snape's task and why does Dumbledore have such a hold on
him?

I think Snape is grateful for AD's trust.  Moreover, I think that he
recognizes in AD a genuinely kind but also genuinely shrewd man, so AD
has Snape's admiration and respect.  (And his leash, the leather one
with little heart-shaped metal studs.)

> (9) What else is in store for Snape in Book 5 - anyone care to
predict?

Snape will infiltrate the Death Eaters; he will be exposed; he will
receive the dementor's kiss once the dementors have gone over to
Voldemort.  Voldemort will keep Snape soulless husk of a body around
for his amusement.

marvin





From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Feb 14 17:55:30 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:55:30 -0000
Subject: How do owls do that?
In-Reply-To: <96e850+8h2h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96egqi+d9k1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12243

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> While we are on the subject of owls, I read that Hagrid sends Harry 
a 
> message via Hedwig, telling him that the Dragon egg had hatched. SS 
> Considering where the owlery is ... would it not have been easier 
to 
> just tell Harry in person, than to go fetch an owl?

You would think so.  But Hedwig is very smart.  Maybe she dropped by 
to visit Hagrid, and so he asked her to take a message to Harry on 
her way back to the owlery.

> (I am not sure 
> where the owlery is located in regards to Hagrid's Hut)
> 
I got the impression it was in the actual castle building somewhere.

> Also, when Hagrid & Harry were on the island, with the Dursleys, 
> Hagrid reached into his coat pockets and used an owl to send a 
> message to Dumbledore. Why didn't he use that owl again, rather 
than 
> use Hedwig? Does Hagrid have his own owl? Or does he just borrow 
one 
> from the school?

There is no subsequent mention of Hagrid owning an owl, so that was 
probably a school owl that he brought along with him, since he knew 
he was supposed to keep Dumdledore posted.

--Joywitch, who is cooking up a delectable love potion in her 
cauldron for Valentines Day.





From old_wych at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 17:57:03 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:57:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <96ec9c+ep9l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010214175703.11130.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12244


--- aichambaye at yahoo.com wrote:
> First, Anne, your fugure skating pic won't load. Any
> chance you could 
> tell us who it is? I love figure skating!

Oops, it works for me. It's Gwendal Peizerat! :-) Is
he perfect or what? My suggestion for Snape from the
figure skating world is Sergei Sakhnovski (Isreali ice
dancer)!
> 
 It's Joseph Fiennes. I'm not up on the
> casting, tho, I 
> just think he's sexy. Ohhh, maybe we could save him
> for Sirius, 
> especially in the second group of pics. 
> 

Joseph Fiennes is definitely a Sirius type!!! So's
Daniel Day-Lewis!

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From jfenne at uwalumni.com  Wed Feb 14 18:07:37 2001
From: jfenne at uwalumni.com (jfenne at uwalumni.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:07:37 -0000
Subject: the trouble with harry (the 5 year old's perspective)
In-Reply-To: <OE28hvyVqr7NoUDry4200007093@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96ehha+63ec@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12245

I'm glad to see the posts about reading Harry to/with younger kids. 
I 
began reading the series just last summer; when I was only 2 or 3 
chapters along, my precocious daughter (just shy of 5 years old at
the 
time) begged me to read Sorcerer's Stone to her.  Knowing she'd be
all 
the more insistent if I just told her it was meant for older kids,
and 
sure that a chapter book of that length wouldn't hold her interest
for 
long anyway, I indulged her request.  We've now read through all four 
books twice together (with some editing of the closing chapters of 
GoF).  She delights in the magical elements and the adventures while 
seemingly able to insulate herself from the frightening ones--she 
hasn't, at least, expressed any fears of losing her parents or seen 
boggarts in the closet.  And she uses the stories to fuel her 
imagination in wonderful ways--the other night she pretended (with 
Barbies) that a mermaid transformed Percy, of all people, into a 
merman and guided him to her treasure trove at the bottom of the
lake, 
where he chose a necklace that acted as a portkey and carried him to 
another world.

So I have no regrets about introducing her to the first four books at 
a rather tender age.  In fact, I've been amazed at her attention 
span and impressed by what she does understand about character 
relationships and motivation.  The expression on her face the first 
time she heard the "Priori Incantatem" chapter in GoF--she was
feeling 
what it would be like for Harry to see the shades of his parents. It 
was incredible.  

But the movie--now, that's a different situation. That will bring to 
life some pretty unnerving images that I think she's managed to
screen 
herself from.  A creeping figure drinking unicorn blood? A face on
the 
back of someone's head?  What do other parents of younger Harry fans 
think about this?




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 14 18:11:26 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:11:26 -0000
Subject: Sirius - casting - owls - Age to read HP
Message-ID: <96ehoe+p83h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12246

Doreen wrote:

>why would he laugh if he were innocent and witnessing Pettigrew 
actually 
>doing the murders?

Shock? anger? nervous collapse?  I know someone who laughs 
uncontrollably when she hears that someone has died.  Check out the 
thread "Pettigrew vs. Sirius" from a couple weeks back (you can search 
the archive for that phrase) for various interpretations from the 
brilliant minds of HPforGU.

>Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?

"Nasty temper he's got, that Sirius Black."  Siriusly:  Sirius is 
really desperate to get into Gryffindor.  He's the only person in the 
world who knows that Peter Pettigrew is alive and well and sleeping 4 
feet from Harry.  It isn't easy for him to get into the castle at all, 
and now he's almost to the dorm and he gets stopped cold.  Not very 
nice of him to take it out on the Fat Lady, but I can relate.

>Why didn't Sirius make Harry his Secret Keeper so that he could hide 
>and Harry would know where he was? Then, Harry could go live with 
>him... couldn't he? 

Hmmm...we've done some musing on here before on exactly how the 
Fidelius Charm works.  It seems likely to me that however it works, it 
is highly dangerous for the Secret-Keeper just because he/she is 
holding very desirable information.  If anyone unscrupulous wanted to 
get at Sirius and knew Harry was his godson, they might guess he would 
be his Secret-Keeper and try to torture him for the information.

Anne wrote:

> OK, this guy is neither an actor nor a Brit. In fact,
> he's a French figure skater. But I think he looks like
> GL!

Oh yeah--he's perfect!  It must be the s***-eating grin.

Joseph Fiennes looks like a good Sirius to me too, but he's a little 
too . . . pretty.  Maybe a good ravaged-looking makeup job would do 
the trick.

Owls:  I bet Hagrid, the Dr. Doolittle of the wizarding world, can 
call an owl to himself from the owlery (which is located high inside 
West Tower--GF, chapter where Harry sends Hedwig to Sirius to say his 
scar didn't really hurt).  Or would that count as magic?

John, whom we always knew was precocious, wrote:

>I think it's something about boys in our family. I had a reading age 
of
>14-16 when I was 8, and was in the top literary percentile all 
through
>elementary school.

The age at which you can comprehend isn't necessarily the age at which 
you can handle the emotional impact, though.  I've wondered about kids 
who can no doubt comprehend HP just fine at age 5 but will be 
terrified.  I might've been able to read PS at age 6 or 7 (except for 
the small drawback that it wouldn't be written for another 20 years), 
but I think it would've scared me at that age.

Amy Z

Who hopes that her kids can take HP before they can read it so she has 
a chance to read it to them

Oh yeah, but first she needs to have some (this IS why people have 
kids, right?  to have someone to read all the great books to?)

------------------------------------------------------
"Wow!" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest 
dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a 
storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it 
again by a giant sea monster.
                       --HP and the Goblet of Fire
------------------------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 14 18:19:19 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:19:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius & the Fat Lady
References: <96ehoe+p83h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8ACC27.F3551BF2@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12247

Amy Z wrote:

> >Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?
>
> "Nasty temper he's got, that Sirius Black."  Siriusly:  Sirius is
> really desperate to get into Gryffindor.  He's the only person in the
> world who knows that Peter Pettigrew is alive and well and sleeping 4
> feet from Harry.  It isn't easy for him to get into the castle at all,
> and now he's almost to the dorm and he gets stopped cold.  Not very
> nice of him to take it out on the Fat Lady, but I can relate.

Don't forget that if he was in Gryffindor, the Fat Lady might very well
know who he is, from his student days. She might know anyway, if she's
an older painting, whether she was the Gryffindor doorkeeper then or
not. So Sirius' attack might have had a bit of pre-emptive strike in it,
to keep her from giving the alarm. Been a while since I read it, this
came off the top of my head, any thoughts?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Feb 14 18:20:07 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:20:07 -0000
Subject: Books, fanfic, Malfoy, gathering and more books
In-Reply-To: <20010111183313.9602.qmail@web1305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96ei8n+b0ai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12248

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub? <rhodhry at y...> wrote:
> Those here who are also members of the PoU-list, will understand 
what I mean
(though they
may not believe me) when I say that the covers on some of the books 
make
Leatherpants!Draco look rather tame, even in Starling's rendition 
(those covers
also
don't have much to do with the story).  ;-)

oh, I really would like to watch those pictures by ms/mr/mrs 
Starling, I have read so much about them....especially the ones of 
Draco... so is there anyone out there to write the link to her/his 
pictures....? I would be so thankful :)
jennifer




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 14 18:40:46 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:40:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius - casting
References: <96ehoe+p83h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c096b5$aa57c660$1870d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12249

oooo nice juicy Sirius posts.  I plan on answering Doreens whole message
after work today...but in the meantime, just wanted to add this to what Amy
wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>


> Doreen wrote:
>
> >Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?
>
> "Nasty temper he's got, that Sirius Black."  Siriusly:  Sirius is
> really desperate to get into Gryffindor.  He's the only person in the
> world who knows that Peter Pettigrew is alive and well and sleeping 4
> feet from Harry.  It isn't easy for him to get into the castle at all,
> and now he's almost to the dorm and he gets stopped cold.  Not very
> nice of him to take it out on the Fat Lady, but I can relate.

Also, remember he choose Halloween night to try to get into the castle.  He
knew everyone would be at the Halloween feast.  His perfect opportunity to
get in, get the rat and get out with the minimum number of people around.
He doesn't know when he'll have this type of opportunity again.  Fat-Lady
won't let him in...he reacts..possible a bit more violently that the average
Joe, but I'll add my thoughts on why he had such a violent reaction in that
circumstance later.


> Joseph Fiennes looks like a good Sirius to me too, but he's a little
> too . . . pretty.

No...Fiennes would make a good Lupin, but he's not rugged enough for Sirius.
I'm still waging my campaign for Daniel Day Lewis as Sirius (see "The Last
of the Mohican's" for that PoA look)

carole







From pbnesbit at msn.com  Wed Feb 14 18:50:08 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:50:08 -0000
Subject: - Age to read HP (was Sirius, casting, owls)
In-Reply-To: <96ehoe+p83h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ek10+rf2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12250

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> John, whom we always knew was precocious, wrote:
> 
> >I think it's something about boys in our family. I had a reading 
age 
> of
> >14-16 when I was 8, and was in the top literary percentile all 
> through
> >elementary school.
> 
> The age at which you can comprehend isn't necessarily the age at 
which 
> you can handle the emotional impact, though.  I've wondered about 
kids 
> who can no doubt comprehend HP just fine at age 5 but will be 
> terrified.  I might've been able to read PS at age 6 or 7 (except 
for 
> the small drawback that it wouldn't be written for another 20 
years), 
> but I think it would've scared me at that age.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> Who hopes that her kids can take HP before they can read it so she 
has 
> a chance to read it to them
> 
> Oh yeah, but first she needs to have some (this IS why people have 
> kids, right?  to have someone to read all the great books to?)
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> "Wow!" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest 
> dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a 
> storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it 
> again by a giant sea monster.
>                        --HP and the Goblet of Fire




I quite agree, Amy.  However, that doesn't explain all those *very 
dark* Grimm's Fairy Tales being read to kids (at least of my 
generation).  Those things deal with a kid's worst nightmares--
beyond, in some cases (i.e. Hansel and Gretel).  I wouldn't recommend 
the books to kids much below the age of 9 or so, unless the kid was 
able to handle the scariness (some kids are, some aren't.  All 
depends on the kid); but I think if they're able to handle Grimm, 
they could handle at least the first three books.   Of course, *some 
kids* actually *like* being scared (never understood that, myself). 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker
> ------------------------------------------------------




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Feb 14 19:18:26 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:18:26 -0000
Subject: I have some Sirius questions here ... seriously :)
In-Reply-To: <96ec7j+44j4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96elm2+gqbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12251

 "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> When it was described about Sirius killing the 13 people, 12 muggles 
> (there is that number 12 again) and one wizard, Sirius is said to 
> have been laughing. Is this just a "repeated rumor"? If not, why 
> would he laugh if he were innocent and witnessing Pettigrew actually 
> doing the murders?

IIRC, Sirius noticed that Peter turned into a rat. Perhaps the 
"laughter" was one of incredulity and was seen by the bystanders as 
sociopathic laughter. Afterall, Sirius was concentrating on Peter more 
than his surroundings if they dueled in broad daylight in the middle 
of a Muggle street.

> Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?

I think he slashed the picture out of desperation/frustration. Sirius 
knew Peter was in the Gryffindor Tower. He knew that Peter was in the 
same dormitory room as Harry. Again, Sirius was concentrating on 
stopping Peter from harming Harry. It must have been very frustrating 
to him that he couldn't get into the Tower because he didn't know the 
password.
 
> Why didn't Sirius make Harry his Secret Keeper so that he could hide 
> and Harry would know where he was? Then, Harry could go live with 
> him... couldn't he? 

That's a good idea. 

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Feb 14 19:23:09 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:23:09 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <96dvhg+5vai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96elut+k967@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12252

"Amy Z" wrote:
> Okay, campers, Julie Walters thinks they're gonna start shooting CoS 
> this year (if they're going to even try to make all 7 while keeping 
> the same three actors as the Trio they have to shoot close to one 
per 
> year), so the time has come for us to weigh in:
> 
> Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg Kinnear, we need a 
Brit!)
> &
> Who should play Riddle?

My picks:

Lockhart= Nigel Havers
http://www.tmaw.webfusion.co.uk/nigelh.html

Tom Riddle= Dominic Monaghan .
http://www.geocities.com/dominic_mon/

;-)Milz




From duranduran88 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 19:43:57 2001
From: duranduran88 at yahoo.com (Rachel)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:43:57 -0000
Subject: Lupin, Sirius and Lockhart
Message-ID: <96en5t+1rk3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12253

I'm new to this list and was just gazing over some of the past 
posts....Just curious...

What names are you all throwing around for the casting of the above 
mentioned fellows?

Yes, I think Joseph Fiennes would make an awesome Lupin. (Course, I'd 
pay money just to watch him sit on an empty soundstage in jeans and a 
sweatshirt, too...so I'm biased. ha ha)




From luvmykatz at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 21:21:26 2001
From: luvmykatz at yahoo.com (Rita Fetter)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:21:26 -0000
Subject: Corrected version of GoF
Message-ID: <96essm+7ee0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12254

Does anyone still have the link to the corrected page from Goblet of 
Fire? The one that has Harry's parents coming out of the wand in the 
correct order.

If you do, please e-mail the link to me at:
luvmykatz at yahoo.com

Thanks,
Rita




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 14 21:24:06 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:24:06 -0000
Subject: Corrected version of GoF
In-Reply-To: <96essm+7ee0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96et1m+f567@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12255

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Fetter" <luvmykatz at y...> wrote:
> Does anyone still have the link to the corrected page from Goblet 
of 
> Fire? The one that has Harry's parents coming out of the wand in 
the 
> correct order.
> 
> If you do, please e-mail the link to me at:
> luvmykatz at y...
> 
It's in our group's file section at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Publications/priori-
s.jpg




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 14 21:24:13 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:24:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting call
Message-ID: <F188Odutox7nyeKzGZu0000a5d8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12256

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amy Wrote:

Okay, campers, Julie Walters thinks they're gonna start shooting CoS
this year (if they're going to even try to make all 7 while keeping
the same three actors as the Trio they have to shoot close to one per
year), so the time has come for us to weigh in:

Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg Kinnear, we need a Brit!)
& Who should play Riddle?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lockhart=Cary Elwes.  I dont remember who brought this up, but it is 
GENIUS!!

Riddle:  I dont know, I am not exactly up on Young British Male actors.  he 
has to be semi-good looking, but if i were to pick an American Actor, I 
would say Brad Renfro....he is so good at playing evil people.  Anyone see 
Apt Pupil?? And he shouldnt be TOO old.

Stephanie
who REALLY wants to be an extra, in the....i guess Slytherin House<vbg>, or 
gryffindor, I can never really decide <vbg>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From lmrourke at snet.net  Wed Feb 14 21:38:28 2001
From: lmrourke at snet.net (Lisa Rourke)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:38:28 -0500
Subject: Subject: the trouble with harry (the 5 year old's perspective)
Message-ID: <000301c096ce$7a213580$1bd43ccc@krass>

No: HPFGUIDX 12257

Hi, I just had to respond to this post.  I've read SS and CoS to my five
year old daughter and am currently half way through PoA.  She loves them :-)
She's never had any problem with the characters or the stories.  I thought
at first that she was a little young and that most of what I read would go
right over her head but she surprised me with how much she remembered.  She
even got a lot of the humor.  She even makes up little games and gives some
of her toys character names.  She's even got her 3 year old brother
involved.  He surprised me the other day by noting that I was wearing green
and called me the Whomping Willow :-)  I'm very glad that I started reading
them to her (but I'll wait until she's older to read her GOF)and it's been
great for me too.  I'm seeing things I missed the first couple of read
through.  When my 3 year old is five, I'll read them to him too!
Lisa




From mschub at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 22:00:53 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:00:53 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <F188Odutox7nyeKzGZu0000a5d8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96ev6l+bt27@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12258

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at h...> 
> Lockhart=Cary Elwes.  I dont remember who brought this up, but it is 
> GENIUS!!

I'm definately with everyone else on this one, I think Cary Elwes 
would make a great Lockhart. Also, as CoS is the first time we see 
Arthur Weasley, I'd just like to say that if he's not played by Hugh 
Laurie (probably most famous for his roles in Blackadder and the 
Jeeves and Wooster TV series, http://us.imdb.com/Name?Laurie,+Hugh), I 
may have to boycott the movie.
-Mike





From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Wed Feb 14 22:57:10 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:57:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James's house - curiosity - Snape - owls - SHIP
Message-ID: <20010214225710.803EB36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12259

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010214/a1fdfef1/attachment.ksh>

From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Feb 14 23:11:58 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:11:58 -0000
Subject: Nothing but (casting) net...
Message-ID: <96f3bu+f4g2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12260

First, a question:  Someone, many, many eons ago, posted a link to a 
site featuring a young (30-32) Irish actor who would be a good choice 
for Bill.  I'm not sure if it was on this list, hpanon, or Hogwarts 
Adult School, but I've tried searching them all and cannot find the 
post with this link.  I cannot remember who posted this, all I 
remember is that it was a female.  If this person is still around, 
could you please repost it?  Thanks...

As for Lockhart, I guess Elwes is the best suggestion I've heard, and 
since I can't think of a better one, that's that.  However, I do 
picture Lockhart as much more strapping than Elwes; taller, broader 
shoulders, etc.  The build of Ralph Fiennes, with CE's face...?

While I agree that Joseph Fiennes is gorgeous and would love to see 
him in the films, he's too young to be Sirius.  As Snape has already 
been cast with the 54 yr. old Rickman, the other living Marauders 
will have to appear in that age range as well.  (If Tim Roth had 
ended up being Snape, then that's another matter; he passed to do 
what?--"Planet of The Apes"?)  After all, they're all contemporaries; 
wouldn't work for Snape to look old enough to be Sirius' father.  How 
about JF as James in whatever flashbacks there are sure to be?  BTW, 
his hair in "Shakespeare in Love" is very much how I picture Harry's; 
just imagine him that way, with a bit more need of a haircut.  My 
mental picture of Sirius is that he has very dark hair and eyes, 
almost black.  Can't think of any actor who looks this way to me...

Now, as Rickman is Snape, the person I can't get out of my mind for 
Lupin is Jeremy Irons.  He's about the same age; enough gray hair and 
facial lines to look properly ravaged by the monthly stress of his 
werewolfishness (<g>), but his eyes convey a youthfulness (to me).  
He's the best I've thought of, but there is bound to be someone that 
captures Lupin better...

Another question:  Is there anyone onlist with an inside to the 
industry that might have an idea how the looming strike may affect 
the plan to film CoS right away?

I'll have to give more thought to the other roles...

Kelley 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 14 23:16:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:16:10 -0000
Subject: Marauders' house(s)
In-Reply-To: <20010214225710.803EB36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <96f3jq+nqr3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12262

Star wrote:

> b/c we do know that all the mauraders were roomates 

Can Star or anyone give a citation on this? (PoA? and what chapter?)  
It's what I always envision, but when I think about it, I can't 
recall actually reading it.

I'm sure there must be more pressing things for me to wonder about in 
life, but most of them aren't as interesting.  <g>

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that
 stood alone in the middle of the grounds.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed Feb 14 23:28:01 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:28:01 -0000
Subject: Sirius - casting
In-Reply-To: <002c01c096b5$aa57c660$1870d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <96f4a1+r4u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12263

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> oooo nice juicy Sirius posts.  I plan on answering Doreens whole 
message
> after work today...but in the meantime, just wanted to add this to 
what Amy
> wrote:

> No...Fiennes would make a good Lupin, but he's not rugged enough 
for Sirius.
> I'm still waging my campaign for Daniel Day Lewis as Sirius 
(see "The Last
> of the Mohican's" for that PoA look)
> 
> carole


Oooooh, I'm with you on this, Carole.  I'd love to see Daniel Day-
Lewis as Sirius, not only for that "Mohican's" look (which I'm 
passionately fond of), but he's also portrayed a man wrongly 
imprisoned in "In the Name of the Father" and wrongly accused in "The 
Crucible."  Perfect credentials in my book.  Now, if he can just ride 
a hippogriff, we're all set!

Marianne




From rina at love-productions.com  Wed Feb 14 23:37:58 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:37:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nothing but (casting) net...
Message-ID: <011e01c096df$30117de0$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12264

kelley wrote:

<<While I agree that Joseph Fiennes is gorgeous and would love to see 
him in the films, he's too young to be Sirius.  As Snape has already 
been cast with the 54 yr. old Rickman, the other living Marauders 
will have to appear in that age range as well.  >>

You know, I never thought about this. That doesn't really make sense based on canon, does it? In GoF, Lily and James are described as a young man and woman, which makes me think mid-late 20s, or maybe up to mid-30s. If Snape is a year younger or about the same age, why would he be portrayed by someone in his mid-50s?

Isn't there other info that the Potters and their gang are much younger than that? I know that Steve and the Lexicon have them at Hogwarts in the 70s, so there's probably more things that I'm currently forgetting. <g> Like, McGonagal as a teacher would sure be cutting it close - they'd be in about her first teaching year or so. I guess that could work, though. I don't know - someone help? <g>

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 00:30:04 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:30:04 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Severus Snape
In-Reply-To: <012f01c0958f$9202e8a0$863770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96f7uc+ffbd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12265

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Okay folks, finally, here's the Snape `sketch'.  I call it a 
sketch, but it
> covers three yards of parchment.

> "I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly
> simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of 
liquids
> that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the
>  senses..." 

Am I the only one who thinks Snape writes sappy poetry in his spare 
time?  Remember his potion portion of the puzzle (alliteration is 
fun!) in SS/PS - the poem accompanying the little bottles?  And this 
bit at the beginning of his first class...  I think he was a very 
sensitive little kid, with a dark imagination, and that even now he 
writes horrible Fleurs du Mal of his own in secret.
Ok, so I've revealed my insanely fanciful side once again, then.  My 
work here is done.

kimberly




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 00:52:36 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:52:36 -0000
Subject: Nothing but (casting) net...
In-Reply-To: <011e01c096df$30117de0$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <96f98k+p74e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12266

I wrote:
> <<While I agree that Joseph Fiennes is gorgeous and would love to 
see him in the films, he's too young to be Sirius.  As Snape has 
already been cast with the 54 yr. old Rickman, the other living 
Marauders will have to appear in that age range as well.  >>
>
>Rina wrote: 
> You know, I never thought about this. That doesn't really make 
sense based on canon, does it? In GoF, Lily and James are described 
as a young man and woman, which makes me think mid-late 20s, or maybe 
up to mid-30s. If Snape is a year younger or about the same age, why 
would he be portrayed by someone in his mid-50s?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yes, before we learned that wizards have longer lifespans, I pictured 
the Marauder generation at about mid-thirties in PS/SS.  And, 
actually Snape is the same age, someone posted the passage relating 
this in some of the Snape discussion, but I can't recall it at the 
moment.  I'm supposing that perhaps we may learn that J & L were 
older than we thought at the time of Harry's birth and their death.  
Hopefully, Rickman will at least look passable for whatever age they 
are supposed to be.
 
>Rina:
> Isn't there other info that the Potters and their gang are much 
younger than that? I know that Steve and the Lexicon have them at 
Hogwarts in the 70s, so there's probably more things that I'm 
currently forgetting. <g> Like, McGonagal as a teacher would sure be 
cutting it close - they'd be in about her first teaching year or so. 
I guess that could work, though. I don't know - someone help? <g><<<<<

Well, since McG is 70 yrs old, she has probably been teaching for 
quite some time.  I believe, correct me if I'm wrong Steve, that 
there isn't any canon evidence so far as to the ages of the 
Marauders, or the specific years they attended HW.  The only 
descriptive info I can think of offhand is that Lupin is described as 
young looking, though prematurely aged.  And, doesn't Sirius look 
like his young self again once Harry sees him 'cleaned up'?  Snape's 
descriptions never seem to focus on any points that would give a clue 
to his age.  And, what about Pettigrew?  Is he described as looking 
prematurely aged, as well?  

Kelley






From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 01:01:23 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:01:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting call
References: <96dvhg+5vai@eGroups.com> <3A8A8357.FDDDC94E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <000901c096ea$d1ec1e80$52e7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12267

If he were "prettier," Hugh Laurie would make an excellent Lockhart.  But who says it absolutely has to be a Brit?  I'm all for a British movie (as opposed to an americanized one) and a mostly British cast, but there a few Americans who might be an asset to the Harry Potter cast.

ender
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amanda Lewanski 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Casting call


  Amy Z wrote:

  > Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg Kinnear, we need a Brit!)

  Pity we've no access to a time-turner; Eric Idle would be soooo good as
  Lockhart. And pity that Val Kilmer's not British. Sigh. Both of them
  have such wonderful cheesy grins.

  Is an HP trailer out?

  --Amanda



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 01:19:27 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:19:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin, Sirius and Lockhart
References: <96en5t+1rk3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004601c096ed$57d89080$52e7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12268

Joseph Fiennes might make a good Tom Riddle as well.  I just saw the X-Men and I think Hugh Jackman (Wolverine) would make an excellent Sirius (he's Australian).  I already stated my preference for Lockhart, but as I doubt that Hugh Laurie will be cast in that role, my second vote goes to Carey Elwes.  Someone mentioned Jeremy Irons for Lupin.  I see him more as Voldemort...when they get to GoF that is.  As for Lupin...I know he's not British, but I always have and always will picture Lupin as Kevin Spacey.

ender
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rachel 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 2:43 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin, Sirius and Lockhart


  I'm new to this list and was just gazing over some of the past 
  posts....Just curious...

  What names are you all throwing around for the casting of the above 
  mentioned fellows?

  Yes, I think Joseph Fiennes would make an awesome Lupin. (Course, I'd 
  pay money just to watch him sit on an empty soundstage in jeans and a 
  sweatshirt, too...so I'm biased. ha ha)


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From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 01:20:46 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:20:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A need for Filch?
References: <96ea1o+ojgu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c096ed$86fcbda0$52e7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12269

Doesn't Hermione mention something about house-elves changing sheets, cleaning dorm rooms and lighting the fires in the common rooms?  I seem to remember that, in which case the elves definitely are not confined to the kitchen.

ender
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doreen Rich 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 10:59 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A need for Filch?


  > >Question being--why does Filch have to clean up all the messes--
  like the
  > >mud that gets tracked in? Why don't the house elves do that? Why 
  do they
  > >need Filch at all?

  Maybe, the house elves stay busy in the kitchen, just as most cooks & 
  dishwashers do in muggle schools. You see the janitors mopping up but 
  you rarely see the cooks & dishwashers unless you go back into the 
  kitchen. 

  Fred & George have seen the house elves because they have sneaked 
  down into the kitchen late at night. I would know if I had house 
  elves, cuz I am a late-night-kitchen-sneaker-into like George & Fred.


    



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From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 01:17:18 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 01:17:18 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <000901c096ea$d1ec1e80$52e7183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <96famu+3gcq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12270

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> If he were "prettier," Hugh Laurie would make an excellent 
Lockhart.  But who says it absolutely has to be a Brit?  I'm all for 
a British movie (as opposed to an americanized one) and a mostly 
British cast, but there a few Americans who might be an asset to the 
Harry Potter cast.
> 
> ender
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

After seeing what a horrible mess Kevin Costner made of a British 
accent in "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves", I'm really leery of 
casting anyone but a British actor in a British movie.  I can't think 
of one American actor who could even do a British accent, but then, I 
spend my life watching British movies, so I'm probably not the best 
one to chime in on actors themselves. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 





From hmmadigan at excite.com  Thu Feb 15 01:33:46 2001
From: hmmadigan at excite.com (hmmadigan at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 01:33:46 -0000
Subject: Lupin, Sirius and Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <004601c096ed$57d89080$52e7183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <96fblq+kjhi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12271

Hi,
This is my first post, I've been lurking for months.

My choices for the parts would be:  Ewan McGregor for Lupin; Russell 
Crowe for Sirius and Cary Elwes as Lockhart.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> Joseph Fiennes might make a good Tom Riddle as well.  I just saw 
the X-Men and I think Hugh Jackman (Wolverine) would make an 
excellent Sirius (he's Australian).  I already stated my preference 
for Lockhart, but as I doubt that Hugh Laurie will be cast in that 
role, my second vote goes to Carey Elwes.  Someone mentioned Jeremy 
Irons for Lupin.  I see him more as Voldemort...when they get to GoF 
that is.  As for Lupin...I know he's not British, but I always have 
and always will picture Lupin as Kevin Spacey.
> 
> ender
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Rachel 
>   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
>   Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 2:43 PM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin, Sirius and Lockhart
> 
> 
>   I'm new to this list and was just gazing over some of the past 
>   posts....Just curious...
> 
>   What names are you all throwing around for the casting of the 
above 
>   mentioned fellows?
> 
>   Yes, I think Joseph Fiennes would make an awesome Lupin. (Course, 
I'd 
>   pay money just to watch him sit on an empty soundstage in jeans 
and a 
>   sweatshirt, too...so I'm biased. ha ha)
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               
>                     www. .com  
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more 
information, see our
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> 
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hmmadigan at excite.com  Thu Feb 15 01:51:04 2001
From: hmmadigan at excite.com (hmmadigan at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 01:51:04 -0000
Subject: I have some Sirius questions here ... seriously :)
In-Reply-To: <96ec7j+44j4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96fcm8+54m8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12272

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
Why didn't Sirius make Harry his Secret Keeper so that he could hide 
> and Harry would know where he was? Then, Harry could go live with 
> him... couldn't he? 
> 
> Doreen_Iowa
> 
> "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more 
than 
> our abilities." Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Chamber of 
> Secrets


Perhaps Harry is still too young to work the magic that may be 
necessary for the spell.  I know that Harry has done some advanced 
magic (the Patronus charm) but it still may require more skill than a 
third year (at the time) or fourth year(now) could handle.




From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb 15 02:05:02 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:05:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nothing but (casting) net...
References: <96f98k+p74e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8B394D.948DFD40@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12273

Kelley wrote:

> Hopefully, Rickman will at least look passable for whatever age they
> are supposed to be.

We Rickman fans feel that he always looks passable, if not more so
<vbg>, but I was already prepared to let Snape, Sirius, and Lupin look
older than their years. All of them had an extended rough time of it.
Snape had a harrowing time as a double agent, which takes its toll in
the constant strain of vigilance and worry, and he's still not the most
relaxed, take-it-easy type on the planet. Plus the constant inhaling of
various fumes--I can't imagine the dungeons are terribly well
ventilated. As for Sirius and Lupin, their rough times are self-evident.

So, with the above in mind, and recalling the magic of movie makeup, I'm
not too worried about the apparent ages of the characters being that far
off. And quite honestly, those of you unfamiliar with Rickman's work,
the ability and authenticity he can invest a role with are stunning. I'm
not (just) a hormonally motivated idol chaser, I *can* do a sober
evaluation, and I really think he's the right actor for the role.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hmmadigan at excite.com  Thu Feb 15 02:13:35 2001
From: hmmadigan at excite.com (hmmadigan at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:13:35 -0000
Subject: Newbie - Teachers - Snape
In-Reply-To: <96c6ft+8ej4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96fe0f+on64@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12274

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sarah Waggott" <s_waggott at y...> wrote:
> Hi, first time poster here. Apologies if these topics have been 
> discussed before, I have been skulking for a while and haven't seen 
> them. 

Hi I'm new too.
 
> First a question, possibly a wierd one but here goes: does anyone 
> know where the teachers go during the holidays? I have seen a few 
> posts (maybe on another site) suggesting that Snape is at Hogwarts 
> under the protection of Dumbledore. However if the teachers leave 
> Hogwarts for the holidays, won't that leave poor Snape a little 
> unprotected? If some teachers stay at Hogwarts, what is the reason 
> for Harry having to spend the summer with the Dursleys?

Interesting question.  Heree are my best guesses:
1.  All the teachers stay at Hogwarts.  They are academics after 
all.  They probably work on papers to be published in the wizard 
scholarly press in the Summer when they won't be spending all their 
free time chasing Fred and George.  
2.  All the teachers stay at Hogwarts.  Home is home.  Though they 
may vacation, like the Weasley's in Egypt.
3. Some leave; some stay.  But I doubt that Hogwarts is ever truly 
empty.
4.  Hagrid is probably always there, where else would he go?
5. Same for Dumbledore:  Hogwarts is his base of operation.  And no 
one messes with Dumbledore.
Don't forget, it's sort of implied that some kids may be able to stay 
at Hogwarts during the summer:  The former headmaster would have 
allowed Tom Riddle to stay for the summer, instead of returning to 
the Orphanage, except for the concerns about the beast from the 
Chamber of Secrets.  Presumably, when Tom turned in Hagrid, he was 
then able to stay (that was his sole motivation for placing the blame 
on Hagrid).






From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb 15 02:20:47 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:20:47 -0600
Subject: Norbert's feet (was: New figures from Mattel)
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010213180603.053afb50@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3A8B3CFF.F105EF07@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12275

"B.K. DeLong" wrote:

> At 05:04 PM 02/13/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> >I dont know about everyone else(judging by posts, this wont aply to
> many)
> >but I can't see the pictures!!!  I Get a forbidden message.  Is three
>
> >somewhere else I can find the images??
>
> Yes. IGN Filmforce has them:
> http://filmforce.ign.com/news/2008.html

Perhaps I'm being nitpicky here, but the Roarin'Snorin' Norbert bugs me.
The toy they have made is a wyvern--four appendages: two wings, two
feet. Proper dragons have six appendages: two wings, four feet. Can
anyone find anything in the text that refers to Norbert's feet (i.e.,
how many?). The wyvern/dragon thing is a heraldic distinction to help
artists, but in my mind, a dragon has four feet.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 03:24:50 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:24:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius - slashing "Fat Lady'
References: <96ehoe+p83h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e501c096fe$dd928300$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12276

How do we know it WAS Sirius who did the slashing?  It could have been
Peter, once he knew Sirius was onto him?

I know, just a thought.  I hate to see Sirius damage her, though!

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 12:11 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius - casting - owls - Age to read HP


> Doreen wrote:
>
> >why would he laugh if he were innocent and witnessing Pettigrew
> actually
> >doing the murders?
>
> Shock? anger? nervous collapse?  I know someone who laughs
> uncontrollably when she hears that someone has died.  Check out the
> thread "Pettigrew vs. Sirius" from a couple weeks back (you can search
> the archive for that phrase) for various interpretations from the
> brilliant minds of HPforGU.
>
> >Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?
>
> "Nasty temper he's got, that Sirius Black."  Siriusly:  Sirius is
> really desperate to get into Gryffindor.  He's the only person in the
> world who knows that Peter Pettigrew is alive and well and sleeping 4
> feet from Harry.  It isn't easy for him to get into the castle at all,
> and now he's almost to the dorm and he gets stopped cold.  Not very
> nice of him to take it out on the Fat Lady, but I can relate.
>
> >Why didn't Sirius make Harry his Secret Keeper so that he could hide
> >and Harry would know where he was? Then, Harry could go live with
> >him... couldn't he?
>
> Hmmm...we've done some musing on here before on exactly how the
> Fidelius Charm works.  It seems likely to me that however it works, it
> is highly dangerous for the Secret-Keeper just because he/she is
> holding very desirable information.  If anyone unscrupulous wanted to
> get at Sirius and knew Harry was his godson, they might guess he would
> be his Secret-Keeper and try to torture him for the information.
>
> Anne wrote:
>
> > OK, this guy is neither an actor nor a Brit. In fact,
> > he's a French figure skater. But I think he looks like
> > GL!
>
> Oh yeah--he's perfect!  It must be the s***-eating grin.
>
> Joseph Fiennes looks like a good Sirius to me too, but he's a little
> too . . . pretty.  Maybe a good ravaged-looking makeup job would do
> the trick.
>
> Owls:  I bet Hagrid, the Dr. Doolittle of the wizarding world, can
> call an owl to himself from the owlery (which is located high inside
> West Tower--GF, chapter where Harry sends Hedwig to Sirius to say his
> scar didn't really hurt).  Or would that count as magic?
>
> John, whom we always knew was precocious, wrote:
>
> >I think it's something about boys in our family. I had a reading age
> of
> >14-16 when I was 8, and was in the top literary percentile all
> through
> >elementary school.
>
> The age at which you can comprehend isn't necessarily the age at which
> you can handle the emotional impact, though.  I've wondered about kids
> who can no doubt comprehend HP just fine at age 5 but will be
> terrified.  I might've been able to read PS at age 6 or 7 (except for
> the small drawback that it wouldn't be written for another 20 years),
> but I think it would've scared me at that age.
>
> Amy Z
>
> Who hopes that her kids can take HP before they can read it so she has
> a chance to read it to them
>
> Oh yeah, but first she needs to have some (this IS why people have
> kids, right?  to have someone to read all the great books to?)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> "Wow!" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest
> dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a
> storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it
> again by a giant sea monster.
>                        --HP and the Goblet of Fire
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
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groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 03:28:02 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:28:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting call
References: <F188Odutox7nyeKzGZu0000a5d8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fd01c096ff$4e05be40$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12277


Isn't Riddle 16-18 though?  It'd have to be a younger actor?
______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Casting call


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Amy Wrote:
>
> Okay, campers, Julie Walters thinks they're gonna start shooting CoS
> this year (if they're going to even try to make all 7 while keeping
> the same three actors as the Trio they have to shoot close to one per
> year), so the time has come for us to weigh in:
>
> Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg Kinnear, we need a Brit!)
> & Who should play Riddle?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Lockhart=Cary Elwes.  I dont remember who brought this up, but it is
> GENIUS!!
>
> Riddle:  I dont know, I am not exactly up on Young British Male actors.
he
> has to be semi-good looking, but if i were to pick an American Actor, I
> would say Brad Renfro....he is so good at playing evil people.  Anyone see
> Apt Pupil?? And he shouldnt be TOO old.
>
> Stephanie
> who REALLY wants to be an extra, in the....i guess Slytherin House<vbg>,
or
> gryffindor, I can never really decide <vbg>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 03:32:46 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:32:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nothing but (casting) net...and Snape/Alan in particular...
References: <011e01c096df$30117de0$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <010f01c096ff$f758e940$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12278

(Yes, I know Neil.  I should have combined posts....  :P)

Isn't there a way to use make-up to bring a decade or so off a character?
If the makeup folks could bring Alan's appearance back to that of RH:PoT
days, I think he'd look the age that everyone wants the Mauraders to be.

:D

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rina Stewart" <rina at love-productions.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Nothing but (casting) net...


> kelley wrote:
>
> <<While I agree that Joseph Fiennes is gorgeous and would love to see
> him in the films, he's too young to be Sirius.  As Snape has already
> been cast with the 54 yr. old Rickman, the other living Marauders
> will have to appear in that age range as well.  >>
>
> You know, I never thought about this. That doesn't really make sense based
on canon, does it? In GoF, Lily and James are described as a young man and
woman, which makes me think mid-late 20s, or maybe up to mid-30s. If Snape
is a year younger or about the same age, why would he be portrayed by
someone in his mid-50s?
>
> Isn't there other info that the Potters and their gang are much younger
than that? I know that Steve and the Lexicon have them at Hogwarts in the
70s, so there's probably more things that I'm currently forgetting. <g>
Like, McGonagal as a teacher would sure be cutting it close - they'd be in
about her first teaching year or so. I guess that could work, though. I
don't know - someone help? <g>
>
> Rina
> ********************************
> "Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect
from
> others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who
> doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
> --Gillian Anderson
>
> "Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
> --Eleanor Roosevelt
>
> Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
> Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 02:36:29 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:36:29 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting Lockhart
Message-ID: <F85ggHwEAPcDvk7eOdU00005c2b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12279

Everyone knows that Cary Elwes should be Lockhart!  (Princess Bride, Robin 
Hood: Men in Tights, Crush, etc)

Signe (who is panting to keep up with this fast paced list)


Amy wrote:
>Okay, campers, Julie Walters thinks they're gonna start shooting CoS
>this year (if they're going to even try to make all 7 while keeping
>the same three actors as the Trio they have to shoot close to one per
>year), so the time has come for us to weigh in:
>
>Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg Kinnear, we need a Brit!)
>&
>Who should play Riddle?
>
>Amy Z
>getting desperate, thinking of sneaking into bad movies to watch
>trailer (OotP just can't come out fast enough)
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>"And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
>"Aaah, I was going to have a fight.  Okay, I'll lose a bet."
>"Yeah, you'll be betting I'll win my fight. . . ."
>                                --HP and the Goblet of Fire
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 02:38:29 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:38:29 -0000
Subject: I have some Sirius questions here ... seriously :)
In-Reply-To: <96ec7j+44j4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96fff5+bs5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12280

<snip> why 
> would (Sirius) laugh if he were innocent and witnessing Pettigrew 
actually 
> doing the murders?

Maybe Sirius WASN'T laughing at all, but howling with grief at what 
he'd realised just happened: two of his closest friends have been 
killed, and he's just been framed by the traitor. We learn later in 
PoA that laughing and crying can be easily mistook: the trio think 
they've heard Hagrid howling with grief about Buckbeak's death, but 
later learn that he was actually howling with laughter at the 
Hippogriff's rescue.

Sam Brown




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 02:48:07 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:48:07 -0000
Subject: Nothing but (casting) net...
In-Reply-To: <3A8B394D.948DFD40@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96fg17+b5vf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12281

I wrote:
> > Hopefully, Rickman will at least look passable for whatever age 
they are supposed to be.
> 
> Amanda wrote:
> We Rickman fans feel that he always looks passable, if not more so
> <vbg>, but I was already prepared to let Snape, Sirius, and Lupin 
look older than their years. All of them had an extended rough time 
of it. <> 
> So, with the above in mind, and recalling the magic of movie 
makeup, I'm not too worried about the apparent ages of the characters 
being that far off. And quite honestly, those of you unfamiliar with 
Rickman's work, the ability and authenticity he can invest a role 
with are stunning. I'm not (just) a hormonally motivated idol chaser, 
I *can* do a sober evaluation, and I really think he's the right 
actor for the role.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Amanda, you're preaching to the converted with me. <g>  I've been 
championing Rickman for Snape all along; since at least May?  June?  
July?  Whenever the first film-casting threads came up, anyway.  
People who had only seen him in "Sense and Sensibility" couldn't 
imagine him in a not-nice role.  I said "Watch him in "Die Hard" 
(where I first fell in love with him), and you'll see."  Tim Roth 
would have done well, I'm sure, but Rickman will positively nail the 
role of Snape.  I only meant passable as far as the age issue, 
anyway...

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 02:58:01 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:58:01 -0000
Subject: Lupin, Sirius and Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <004601c096ed$57d89080$52e7183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <96fgjp+s6eo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12282

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> Joseph Fiennes might make a good Tom Riddle as well.  I just saw 
the X-Men and I think Hugh Jackman (Wolverine) would make an 
excellent Sirius (he's Australian).  I already stated my preference 
for Lockhart, but as I doubt that Hugh Laurie will be cast in that 
role, my second vote goes to Carey Elwes.  Someone mentioned Jeremy 
Irons for Lupin.  I see him more as Voldemort...when they get to GoF 
that is.  As for Lupin...I know he's not British, but I always have 
and always will picture Lupin as Kevin Spacey.
> 
> ender

Hi ender, that was me.  JI does do the evil villain delightfully 
well, though, he never really struck me as Vold.  The best person 
I've thought of for Vold would be Michael Gambon(?), the evil husband 
from "The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover".  Originally, I 
wanted him for Vernon, but would be happy to see him as Voldy.  Vold 
will be 70, I believe, by OoP, though, of course, he will probably 
not look that age, with the longer lifespans and all.  Some people 
remarked sometime back that Vold would possibly be done with computer 
graphics rather than acted by a person.  I haven't heard this 
theory/rumor in a while, though...

Kelley
 




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 03:02:41 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:02:41 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <96famu+3gcq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96fgsh+kks3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12283

ender wrote:
> > If he were "prettier," Hugh Laurie would make an excellent 
> Lockhart.  But who says it absolutely has to be a Brit?  I'm all 
for a British movie (as opposed to an americanized one) and a mostly 
> British cast, but there a few Americans who might be an asset to the
> Harry Potter cast.

>Parker wrote:
> After seeing what a horrible mess Kevin Costner made of a British 
> accent in "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves", I'm really leery of 
> casting anyone but a British actor in a British movie.  I can't 
think of one American actor who could even do a British accent, but 
then, I spend my life watching British movies, so I'm probably not 
the best one to chime in on actors themselves. 
 
Haha, there's not much of anything I would recommend Costner for, 
definitely not anything in HP.  Someone way back when mentioned Kevin 
Kline as Lockhart, as KK seems to be one of the few Amer. actors who 
can even approach a decent English accent.  I can vaguely see him in 
the role, but would still prefer a British actor...

Kelley




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 03:08:38 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:08:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin, Sirius and Lockhart
Message-ID: <F267mPrdKz1EQDSZGog0000aad8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12284

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
My choices for the parts would be:  Ewan McGregor for Lupin; Russell
Crowe for Sirius and Cary Elwes as Lockhart.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know, everyone can have their opinion ;) But i think they are all a bit 
too young.  And, as great of an actor as Ewan MacGregor is, i think he would 
make a better lockhart than a Lupin, think Emma. (I really want C.Elwes as 
Lockhart anyways<vbg>) Plus, I just don't think any actor can really do 2 
"cult" classics.  I mean, To be in Star Wars AND Harry Potter?  Not only 
could I not stand for my 2 worlds to collide, it would kill him as a person. 
  Who could take that Kind of pressure, playing to of the most beloved 
characters of all time <vbg>  As for Russel Crowe, he is to, I don't know, 
burly to be sirius IMHO.  BUT, you have my full support with Cary Elwes!! 
Remeber though, this is all IMHO!!

Stephanie
Who thinks that HP and SW are too alike as it is....kidding, kidding, 
kidding!! Please no one kill me!
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 03:21:17 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:21:17 -0000
Subject: Casting Comments
Message-ID: <96fhvd+78e6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12285

Well, I am with whoever (I think it was Voicelady) suggested Pierce 
Brosnan for Lockhart.  I think Brosnan would do a great job as a 
smarmy, self-centered, egotistical pretty boy.  He wouldnt even have 
to act that hard.  (Actually, I kind of like him but he does strike 
me as pretty smarmy and conceited.)

And I am still heartbroken that they didnt cast Patrick Stewart as 
Dumbledore, although I have to admit Richard Harris is pretty good 
casting.  Is there any hope of casting PS as another HP character?  
He might be good as Cornelius Fudge, or Bartemious Crouch, Sr.  
Suggestions, anyone?

--Joywitch, whose is trying to attract Patrick Stewart with the 
Valentines Day love potion cooking in her cauldron.  (Picard 
Apparatum)




From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 03:36:21 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:36:21 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <96ev6l+bt27@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96firl+pj1f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12286

<Ahem>. I was the one who proposed Cary Elwes. I can't think of 
another actor who could do it as well.

Mike:"Also, as CoS is the first time we see Arthur Weasley, I'd just 
like to say that if he's not played by Hugh Laurie (probably most 
famous for his roles in Blackadder and the  Jeeves and Wooster TV 
series, I may have to boycott the movie."

Is he the actor that played the policeman in "The Borrowers?" if 
that's him, he would be fine, but my first choice would be Jim Dale.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 04:41:24 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:41:24 -0600
Subject: Who thinks that HP and SW are too alike as it is....kidding, kidding, (and some SW OT)
References: <F267mPrdKz1EQDSZGog0000aad8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <025201c09709$8f19b3a0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12287

Who thinks that HP and SW are too alike as it is....kidding, kidding,
kidding!! Please no one kill me!


That's rather funny--my son's got a huge crush (at age 3) on SW lately.  As
I watch the show for the 45th time in a week....groan, sometimes, I see
parallels, and also pull out a few questions!

First.
Leia=Hermione.  Can anyone else see it?
Luke=Harry.  That naive, trying to be Jedi/that naive, trying to be a master
wizard (and the Skywalker name thing/Potter name thing)
Han=Ron (NO CRACKS ON SHIPS!  I AM NOT GOING THERE!)
Obi=Dumbledore.  Of course, from the old Yahoo-casting days (whistles)....
Sabers=wands
Hagrid=Chewie....  Well, they're both hairy!
Yoda=Dobie?  Similarity in physical characteristics, if you watch the
official screensaver.  Dobie has the same ears....
Both series have strange animals.
I'm not certain if Darth Vader is Peter or Vold.  He was re-converted back
at the end of Ep. 6.
The two droids.  R2D2=Hedwig.  It's a stretch, I know, but both carried
messages?  I also think Hedwig has the same feisty personality.
C3PO throws me for a loop.  No close who he'd resemble.
Snape=Lando.  We thought he was a traitor, too.  He helped fire the shot
that destroyed the Emperor though (Now there's the Vold link!)
Any more similarities you folks can come up with?

Now onto the OT?

If C3PO was created on Tatteroine, then why didn't he recognize it in 4?
If " was created by Anikin (sp?), then why didn't he recognize the
"SKYWALKER" in Luke?
Why didn't Obi recognize the two droids?  He ran with at least one during Ep
1 (R2D2)
Why does Obi tell Yoda about (paraphrased) how I was rash when you trained
me, when Quo trained him?

Yah, I know.  You guys started this feature in me--critiquing things to
follow in step!

I've got more...just can't recall them at this time!
______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin, Sirius and Lockhart


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> My choices for the parts would be:  Ewan McGregor for Lupin; Russell
> Crowe for Sirius and Cary Elwes as Lockhart.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You know, everyone can have their opinion ;) But i think they are all a
bit
> too young.  And, as great of an actor as Ewan MacGregor is, i think he
would
> make a better lockhart than a Lupin, think Emma. (I really want C.Elwes as
> Lockhart anyways<vbg>) Plus, I just don't think any actor can really do 2
> "cult" classics.  I mean, To be in Star Wars AND Harry Potter?  Not only
> could I not stand for my 2 worlds to collide, it would kill him as a
person.
>   Who could take that Kind of pressure, playing to of the most beloved
> characters of all time <vbg>  As for Russel Crowe, he is to, I don't know,
> burly to be sirius IMHO.  BUT, you have my full support with Cary Elwes!!
> Remeber though, this is all IMHO!!
>
> Stephanie
> Who thinks that HP and SW are too alike as it is....kidding, kidding,
> kidding!! Please no one kill me!
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 03:57:08 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:57:08 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Severus Snape
In-Reply-To: <96c56g+12tf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96fk2k+gigm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12288

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mschub at y... wrote:
> I think another element of this question is how does Karkaroff feal 
> about Snape? He's in the courtroom, having just given Snape over to 
> the authorities, and Dumbledore stands up and really takes the wind 
> out of his sails by announcing that Snape was a spy for the good 
guys. 
> You'd think this would at the very least make him a little wary of 
> Snape, and at the most make him LOATHE him (the Death Eaters seem 
the 
> type to hate a traitor over and above anyone else). And yet he 
openly 
> approaches him with the news that his scar (brand?) is getting 
darker. 
> Perhaps he sees some sort of camaraderie in that they've both fled 
> from the Death Eaters and are frightened to see V come back? I just 
> can't figure out why he'd just so blindly accept him.
> -Mike

I wondered about this too.  When I read Karkaroff's trail scene again 
recently, it struck me that he didn't mention Snape until it became 
clear that he wasn't doing very well, and the word 'desperate' (or 
desperation?) was used.  Apparently he didn't *want* to rat on Snape, 
and only did it as a last resort.  Were the two of them friends?  
Snape seems very tolerant of Karkaroff even as he's clearly 
exhasperated by his cowardice.  Snape is not particularly tolerant of 
many people.  I think it's possible that there was some small degree 
of lingering fondness, and he hoped that Karkaroff would show some 
strength of character and stand his ground, and was disappointed.

just a thought,
kimberly




From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Feb 15 03:52:45 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:52:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who thinks that HP and SW are too alike as it is
Message-ID: <200102150402.f1F42EC19995@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 12289

Dee wrote:
>The two droids.  R2D2=Hedwig.  It's a stretch, I know, but both carried
>messages?  I also think Hedwig has the same feisty personality.
>C3PO throws me for a loop.  No close who he'd resemble.

Nearly Headless Nick?

Kathy, 
who now feels absolutely no guilt over the "casting HP with Muppets" thread 
she started a few months back




From joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 04:30:11 2001
From: joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com (joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:30:11 -0000
Subject: Who thinks that HP and SW are too alike as it is....kidding, kidding, (and s
In-Reply-To: <025201c09709$8f19b3a0$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <96fm0j+6je5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12290

Ahoy, a long post follows here: 
Hi, I'm just de-lurking today because quite frankly, I'm creeped 
out about how this topic goes exactly with my recent musings.  
Why, just yesterday, I was thinking about the similiarities betwixt 
HP and SW characters!!

I think my notions about this were similar except maybe I'd put in 
Old Obi=Lupin.  Nothing to do with age, obviously...just that they 
seemed to have similar teacher-roles, appear only for part of the 
big tale and disappear (for now).  Also, there is the "prequel" 
notion that  just as Obi-Wan had some past history with Luke's 
dad, so did Remus as one of the Marauders.  Couldn't you just 
see this:

Harry:  You told me Sirius Black betrayed and murdered my 
father...
Rumus:  He convinced your parents to trust Peter...so in a way, 
he did....from a certain point of view.
Harry:  A certain point of view?!

Well, maybe not.  :-)

Luke's father figure is a complicated issue since there's the 
double good/bad thing happening.  In order to make it work with 
HP, I suggest this:

Anakin before Vader:  James Potter
The Vader who betrayed Anakin from a Certain Point of View:  
Peter Pettigrew
Ambivalent Vader:  Well, I'd go with Sirius Black when everyone 
was convinced he was a cold blooded murderer.
Vader Redeemed:  Sirius--Harry's godfather.

Now there are of course, parts of this that don't work.  Vader 
really was a bad guy.  Sirius was only a bit unhinged in his need 
for revenge and all that.  And he didn't serve the dark side.  But 
that's my  view of THAT.

Hmm...how about...

Black:  ...never told you what happened to your father.
Harry:  He told me enough!  It was you who betrayed him!
Black:  No...I am your Godfather...
Harry:  No....that's not true....that's impossible!!

OK, I'll stop with that stuff.  ;-)

Anyway, this all makes Lord Voldemort=the Emperor

So who is Dumbledore?  I'd go with Yoda...the wise but slightly 
wacky and very-old authority figure.

Even though Beru was a kind soul, Owen Lars seems to be 
prime Dursley material. 

I never got to thinking about who Snape's couterpart might be in 
that galaxy far far away...Lando does seem to fit.  Besides, they 
both seem a bit greasy!

Really, I'm a bit worried that I've thought about it this much 
already.  I'll stop now and lurk again.

-Joy

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
[SNIP]
> 
> First.
> Leia=Hermione.  Can anyone else see it?
> Luke=Harry.  That naive, trying to be Jedi/that naive, trying to be 
a master
> wizard (and the Skywalker name thing/Potter name thing)
> Han=Ron (NO CRACKS ON SHIPS!  I AM NOT GOING THERE!)
> Obi=Dumbledore.  Of course, from the old Yahoo-casting days 
(whistles)....
> Sabers=wands
> Hagrid=Chewie....  Well, they're both hairy!
> Yoda=Dobie?  Similarity in physical characteristics, if you 
watch the
> official screensaver.  Dobie has the same ears....
> Both series have strange animals.
> I'm not certain if Darth Vader is Peter or Vold.  He was 
re-converted back
> at the end of Ep. 6.
> The two droids.  R2D2=Hedwig.  It's a stretch, I know, but both 
carried
> messages?  I also think Hedwig has the same feisty 
personality.
> C3PO throws me for a loop.  No close who he'd resemble.
> Snape=Lando.  We thought he was a traitor, too.  He helped 
fire the shot
> that destroyed the Emperor though (Now there's the Vold link!)
> Any more similarities you folks can come up with?
> {SNIP}





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 05:41:30 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:41:30 -0600
Subject: OT for the ADMIN  (News from the front?)
References: <200102150402.f1F42EC19995@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <030801c09711$f474afe0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12291

  Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:10:36 -0800
   From: Brandon Long <blong at egroups.net>
Subject: Re: truncation of messages

Due to some problems we had in displaying messages, we limited the
display of a text message in the archive to 64k.  64k is a lot of text,
and probably more than most people would expect to download on a web
page.  The problems pages actually had 600k+ of text, due to
auto-responders copying themselves.

I've upped the limit to 128k for the next release.

Brandon

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb 15 05:25:11 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:25:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snakes/Nagini/Kipling/ Chuck Jones
References: <982126789.1890.93971.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001601c0970f$abf90060$0ac44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12292


>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:14:06 -0600
>    From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
> Subject: Re: Snakes/Nagini (was JKR Dictionary?)
>
> Amy Z wrote:
>
> > When I see "Nagini" I always think of "naga," Sanskrit for snake (no,
> > I don't know Sanskrit, but I've studied Buddhism a lot and you pick
> > these things up).  Nagas have a very positive connotation--they are
> > wiser and more spiritually advanced than most humans.  The term is
> > even used as a synonym for the Buddha sometimes, and Nagarjuna, one
> > of the greatest Buddhist thinkers of all time, was named for the nagas
> > who are said to have instructed him.
>
> Yeah, but most of us will make the Rikki-Tikki-Tavi connection, where
> Nag and Nagaina were definitely *not* good. (Of course, Kipling named
> them that because of nagas.) I think the lady cobra's name was Nagaina,
> something like that, but very close to Nagini and the connection clicked
> for me. Anyone else a Kipling fan? Or see the animated version some eons
> ago? Am I the only one that thought of this?

The animated RTT was by one of the masters, Chuck Jones, best known as the
Warner Bros. animator who created Road Runner, Wile E. Coyote, and Pepe Le
Pew, and who elevated Bugs, Elmer and Daffy  to the ascendant heights of The
Rabbit of Seville, What's Opera Doc?, Duck Amuck, etc.  But I'd forgotten
the names of the RTT snake - thanks for the reminder.

Kipling is a great writer (despite his political incorrectness - or maybe
even because of it).  I recently read Puck of Pook's Hill, in which Puck -
the same spirit from Shakespeare's MSND - reveals to a group of children the
magical ancient British history behind the seemingly ordinary plot of earth
upon which they reside.  (Certainly some linkage here with JKR!)  Reading
this volume reminds me of how in tune Kipling with the essence of
story-telling - he always keeps you asking What happens next? even when the
action is not especially suspenseful.

I have an old (approx 1900) 10-volume set of Kipling I inherited from my
late father-in-law with a rather startling ornament along the spine: a
Swatiska.  However, it is in the reverse (i.e., counterclockwise) direction
from the infamous Nazi emblem, and is of course a Hindu mystical symbol (aka
the Fylfot), which variously represented the sun, the four winds, lightning,
etc.

    - CMC





From msl at fc.net  Thu Feb 15 05:33:16 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 05:33:16 -0000
Subject: Sirius & the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <3A8ACC27.F3551BF2@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96fpms+73td@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12293


> 
> > >Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?
> >

My assumption has always been that when he arrived at Hogwarts the 
first time he was in his canine form and still pretty mentally 
unstable from his time in Azkaban.  I think that the same aspect of 
his canine form that saved him from his dementors made him a bit dull-
witted on the subject of figuring out how to get access to Harry.

So instead of thinking things out ahead of time (if he had, he would 
have remembered how the portraits work), he made a bee-line for 
Gryffindor and, once thwarted, had a fit in which he slashed the 
picture with his claws.  Only then did he come to his senses, return 
to human form in order to evaluate the situation, and then skedaddle.

marvin




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Feb 15 06:05:27 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 06:05:27 -0000
Subject: Who thinks that HP and SW are too alike as it is
In-Reply-To: <200102150402.f1F42EC19995@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <96frj7+u253@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12294

> Dee wrote:
> >The two droids.  R2D2=Hedwig.  It's a stretch, I know, but both 
carried
> >messages?  I also think Hedwig has the same feisty personality.
> >C3PO throws me for a loop.  No close who he'd resemble.
> 
> Nearly Headless Nick?

What about Hagrid = the Wookie (I think that is who I mean ... they 
are both big & furry)

Or the droids and the ghosts
and the Ewoks and the house elves? :) just my two cents

Doreen





From mschub at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 06:32:33 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (mschub at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 06:32:33 -0000
Subject: Sirius & the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <96fpms+73td@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ft61+njvv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12295

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., msl at f... wrote:
> > > >Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?

This just kinda popped into my head. There have been ideas thrown 
around as to which house who was in. I personally have always felt the 
Marauders were all in Gryffindor. But I think the fact that Sirius 
knew exactly where to find the Gryffindor common room is pretty strong 
evidence that he was in Gryffindor (the students don't seem to know 
where the other common rooms are). Of course, this is pretty easy to 
shoot down. Perhaps he had a friend that was in Gryffindor, and often 
went back there with him. Or, if nothing else, he IS the co-author of 
the Marauders' Map, so it's probably pretty safe to say he knew the 
school fairly well.
-Mike





From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Thu Feb 15 07:36:52 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (mohuebner0 at lycos.de)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:36:52 -0000
Subject: I have some Sirius questions here ... seriously :)
In-Reply-To: <96ec7j+44j4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96g0uk+e84a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12296

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:

> When it was described about Sirius killing the 13 people, 12 
muggles 
> (there is that number 12 again) and one wizard, Sirius is said to 
> have been laughing. Is this just a "repeated rumor"? If not, why 
> would he laugh if he were innocent and witnessing Pettigrew 
actually 
> doing the murders?

This has been discussed a few weeks ago like someone else has
already pointed out. Personally I think it was a stress breakdown,
or a nervous collapse if you prefer this term. Sirius' whole world
had just been shattered into pieces and his best friends had been
murdered although he had tried everything to save them. This was IMHO
largely enough to traumatize him. Not to forget that he felt 
responsible for their deaths.


> Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?

In my opinion it wasn't something he had control over. I am
convinced that he has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), and
outbursts of anger and violence are among the most common symptoms
of the disorder in men. You might want to check out message #11030
where I have elaborated on my PTSD theory. Of course we can only
speculate about what happened since we didn't actually see it. 
Peeves only saw the "nasty temper", that is the result but not the
reason. Since it's all speculation, there is also the possibility
that Sirius doesn't even remember doing it. His loss of control may
have been so complete that it led to a dissociative episode, which
means that the memory cannot be recalled consciously. I think the
incident in the Shrieking Shack when he tried to throttle Harry was
similar. This wasn't an intentional action, either. Everyone has his/
her pet theories, and mine is that he was extremely unstable mentally
during the timeframe of PoA.


> Why didn't Sirius make Harry his Secret Keeper so that he could 
hide 
> and Harry would know where he was? Then, Harry could go live with 
> him... couldn't he? 

I think the Fidelius Charm is something you will have to register
with the ministry like the animagus transformation. The only ones
who know that Sirius is innocent are Lupin and Dumbledore, and I
believe neither of them would do something this illegal.

Monika (the Sirius fan)






From find_sam at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 08:02:17 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:02:17 -0000
Subject: The Appearance of the Number 12
In-Reply-To: <96e6i6+sfbg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96g2e9+cp0i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12297

"Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Has anyone else noticed that the number 12 keeps cropping up?

Nagini is first described as being 'about twelve feet long' when 
Frank sees her in the hall.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Feb 15 08:03:46 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:03:46 -0000
Subject: Casting couch: OT - Sirius & Remus suggestions/Movie - Rik Mayall as Peeves
Message-ID: <000c01c09725$eb787ca0$703570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12298

I have two new(ish) casting suggestions for Sirius and Remus.  For Sirius, I suggest Clive Owen, who has amazing bright green eyes (they'd have to go, unfortunately... well, the colour of them... I don't mean gouge his eyes out):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Movie%20Cast/Members%27%20Suggestions/CliveOwen.jpg

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Movie%20Cast/Members%27%20Suggestions/Owen1.jpg


For Remus, how about Colin Firth (I think he's come up before):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Movie%20Cast/Members%27%20Suggestions/ColinFirth.jpg


Rik Mayall is pretty much confirmed as Peeves, so I've put two new pics of him in "Confirmed Cast" (I've moved Verne Troyer to "Rumoured Cast" as "a ghoul?").  I posted a biog of Rik a while back...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Movie%20Cast/Confirmed%20Cast/Rik1-Peeves.jpg

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Movie%20Cast/Confirmed%20Cast/Rik2-Peeves.jpg


Rik would also have been *great* as Lockhart.  I'm a bit stuck on that one.  I think it should be a comedian, but the only ones I can think of aren't that pretty (for example Steve "Alan Partridge" Coogan or Chris "Red Dwarf" Barrie).  Eddie Izzard would be cool, but he's too chunky.

Never heard of Cary Elwes, but he's been mentioned here about a hundred times!!

BTW, if the links above don't work, just go to the root Graphics Group and follow the directories...

Neil

_____________________________________

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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Feb 15 09:13:27 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:13:27 -0000
Subject: Casting couch 2: Voldemort-Riddle idea
Message-ID: <006401c0972f$8f35d1e0$703570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12299

I'm suddenly caught up in casting suggestions again... 

Since Ian Hart will be playing Voldemort as well as Quirrell, perhaps the actor who plays Tom Riddle needs to resemble him?

I've noticed that Ian Hart and Jamie Bell (previously touted as a possible Harry Potter) look very similar.  Bell is now 15 going on 16, so he's the right age for Riddle. Take a look at this 'separated at birth' picture I've posted to our Graphics club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Movie%20Cast/Members%27%20Suggestions/Voldemort-Riddle.jpg

Of course, neither of these actors look like Dan Radcliffe and HP is supposed to resemble TR.  Oh, no - my world is torn apart by these cinematic discrepancies...

Neil

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From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 10:37:21 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:37:21 -0000
Subject: Casting couch: OT - Sirius & Remus suggestions/Movie - Rik Mayall as Peeves
In-Reply-To: <000c01c09725$eb787ca0$703570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96gbh1+u6k8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12300

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> I have two new(ish) casting suggestions for Sirius and Remus.  For 
Sirius, I suggest Clive Owen, who has amazing bright green eyes 
(they'd have to go, unfortunately... well, the colour of them... I 
don't mean gouge his eyes out):
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Movie%
20Cast/Members%27%20Suggestions/CliveOwen.jpg
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Movie%
20Cast/Members%27%20Suggestions/Owen1.jpg
> 
> 
> For Remus, how about Colin Firth (I think he's come up before):
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/Movie%
20Cast/Members%27%20Suggestions/ColinFirth.jpg

I looked at the pictures. Clive Owen I've never seen before and my 
first comment is YUM!! My second is that he seems a bit young for my 
mental image of Sirius, at least according to the picture. 
As for Colin Firth, I don't see him as Lupin. Maybe because I don't 
like him (Firth). My Lupin has an open, kind face that easily smiles. 
How about Ralph (Rayfe?) Fienness?

Naama





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 12:53:37 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:53:37 -0000
Subject: Casting Comments
In-Reply-To: <96fhvd+78e6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96gjgh+nbn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12301

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> Well, I am with whoever (I think it was Voicelady) suggested Pierce 
> Brosnan for Lockhart.  I think Brosnan would do a great job as a 
> smarmy, self-centered, egotistical pretty boy.  He wouldnt even 
have 
> to act that hard.  (Actually, I kind of like him but he does strike 
> me as pretty smarmy and conceited.)
> 
<looking smug> That was my suggestion, actually. I'm glad somebody 
likes it. I was starting to think its a bit too far-fetched. The only 
thing is, I really can't believe Pierce would risk leaving her 
Majesty's service to play a self parody.

Naama




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 12:55:42 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:55:42 -0000
Subject: Casting - Fat Lady - Nagini
Message-ID: <96gjke+nq7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12302

Clearly, I have released a monster!

Judging from the wee little picture on the website, Hugh Laurie for 
Mr. Weasley looks perfect.  I forgot that that's another character 
they have to cast for CoS.

Kevin Spacey for Lupin?  Good actor, but I just can't match Verbal and 
Our Man Remus in my head.  Just goes to show how individual these 
things are (and how no casting director will ever please more than 20% 
of us).  Irons seems okay, though he's already 52.  Oh well, he played 
an undergraduate in Brideshead and he must've been 30+ then.

I am glad they've stuck with British actors (except for Chris 
Columbus's daughter . . . hmmm), but I think Lockhart would make an 
acceptable exception.  The self-obsessed, fame-obsessed American.

I have never seen Clive Owen before, but wow . . . that's my Sirius.  
Although against all reason, I picture him being clean-shaven (sure, 
he hasn't had time or breath for a haircut since leaving Azkaban, but 
he hates a scratchy chin, so he does a quick wandless "Depilio!" every 
morning).

Joywitch wrote:

>(Picard Apparatum)

LOL!  Well, not to be grim, but Richard Harris is getting on and they 
might need another Dumbledore before they're through.  We can tempt 
Patrick Stewart with the opportunity to have several feet of hair!  I 
do think he'd make a good Crouch Sr., but that isn't enough screen 
time for the incomparable Jean-Luc!

Kathy wrote:

>"casting HP with Muppets" 

Gonzo as Neville?  (you know, unintentional explosions)

Dee wrote:

>How do we know it WAS Sirius who did the slashing?  It could have 
been
>Peter, once he knew Sirius was onto him?

Interesting idea!  We do get the information from Peeves--not a 
totally reliable source.  But the implication is that the Fat Lady saw 
whoever did it (how could she help it?) so Peter would've given the 
game away if it were him.  I think Sirius has to have been in human 
form at this point for the same reason--the Fat Lady/Peeves would've 
reported that he can be a dog otherwise.

Amanda wrote:

> Yeah, but most of us will make the Rikki-Tikki-Tavi connection, 
where
> Nag and Nagaina were definitely *not* good.

I didn't remember their names.  I saw RTT when I was about 5, and 
those cobras induced a fear of flushing toilets in me for years (don't 
ask).  Maybe I'll see it again, now that my phobia has faded and CM 
has informed us that the animator was the sublime Chuck Jones.

Amy Z
...who can't recall what Cary Elwes looks like (it's been a long time 
since The Princess Bride)

...and who has never sent a letter to a movie star in her life, but is 
mentally drafting one to Ralph Fiennes begging him to play Lupin

-------------------------------------------------------------
"And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
"Aaah, I was going to have a fight.  Okay, I'll lose a bet."
"Yeah, you'll be betting I'll win my fight. . . ."
                               --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------------------




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 13:02:58 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:02:58 -0000
Subject: Sirius & the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <96fpms+73td@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96gk22+nbqi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12303

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., msl at f... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > >Why did Sirius slash the picture of the Fat Lady?
> > >
> 
> My assumption has always been that when he arrived at Hogwarts the 
> first time he was in his canine form and still pretty mentally 
> unstable from his time in Azkaban.  I think that the same aspect of 
> his canine form that saved him from his dementors made him a bit 
dull-
> witted on the subject of figuring out how to get access to Harry.
> 

Petty correction: he was actually trying to get access to Pettigrew 
as Scabbers.

Naama




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 14:01:14 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:01:14 -0000
Subject: I have some Sirius questions here ... seriously :)
In-Reply-To: <96elm2+gqbt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96gnfa+o93e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12304

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
>  "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > When it was described about Sirius killing the 13 people, 12 
muggles 
> > (there is that number 12 again) and one wizard, Sirius is said to 
> > have been laughing. Is this just a "repeated rumor"? If not, why 
> > would he laugh if he were innocent and witnessing Pettigrew 
actually 
> > doing the murders?
> 
> IIRC, Sirius noticed that Peter turned into a rat. Perhaps the 
> "laughter" was one of incredulity and was seen by the bystanders as 
> sociopathic laughter. Afterall, Sirius was concentrating on Peter 
more 
> than his surroundings if they dueled in broad daylight in the 
middle 
> of a Muggle street.
> 

As I see it, at that moment Sirius realized just what Pettigrew had 
done, not only his betrayal of James and Lily but also making him, 
Sirius, his scapegoat. He realized Pettigrew's scheme and realized 
that it has succeeded - it will be him, Sirius, who will be blamed 
for the  betrayal of his best friends. Universal disgrace and Azkaban 
await him. His laugh is the laughter of the irony of despair. 
I'm trying to think of literary parallels and can't, except for a 
faint echo of Kafka. Can anybody think of something else?

Naama




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 14:25:02 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:25:02 -0000
Subject: SHIPS: Harry/... (was Harry/Ron/Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <20010213233212.66006.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96goru+ofgh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12305

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Ginny Love <Slytherin_Daughter at y...> wrote:

>A person he had
> not grown up with could not really understand him, his
> life and his problems. A person he had not grown up
> with could not deal with the way he has the stability
> of a slug. And few who grew up with him could do that,
> unless they had a deep caring for him, unless they had
> gone years with unrequited love and all they wanted
> was to take him in their loving arms and comfort and
> care for the lonely orphan boy. Unless that person
> was. . .Draco Malfoy. Didn't see it coming, did you?
> <eg>
> 

Ginny Love!

I thought you were supposed to be my back-up?  Don't tease the lonley 
H/Gers like that.  Perish the thought! ;)
It may well be that Ginny (Not Draco)wouldn't mind giving her life 
over to the nurturing of Harry's wounded spirit and all that, but I 
don't think it has to be quite that bad.  He survived 12 years of 
abuse and came out a clever, kind boy and has managed to begin 
trusting and caring for people in the kinds of authority positions 
that he has previously only had cause to fear.  What's to indicate 
that he will just fall apart after the Voldy war?  
I'm sure there will be emotional scars, but I think Harry can manage 
to live and love someday.  It may take years, but I don't see why the 
Harry I know and love can't overcome enough to share his life with 
someone as an equal partner, rather than a project or a patient.  Even 
if it isn't Ginny, I'm not ready to resign to our Harry being alone 
and tortured for the rest of his life.

kimberly,
The eternal optimist :D




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Feb 15 14:33:06 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:33:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting - Fat Lady - Nagini
In-Reply-To: <96gjke+nq7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215092758.05076b90@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12306

At 12:55 PM 02/15/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Kevin Spacey for Lupin?  Good actor, but I just can't match Verbal and
>Our Man Remus in my head.  Just goes to show how individual these
>things are (and how no casting director will ever please more than 20%
>of us).  Irons seems okay, though he's already 52.  Oh well, he played
>an undergraduate in Brideshead and he must've been 30+ then.

I'm still holding onto my Ralph Fiennes as Lupin picture ;)

>I am glad they've stuck with British actors (except for Chris
>Columbus's daughter . . . hmmm), but I think Lockhart would make an
>acceptable exception.  The self-obsessed, fame-obsessed American.

Agreed - with a brit reading both the American and UK version of the book 
on tape/CD, I can't imagine anyone else but a brit playing these parts. I 
still think that Tim Curry, Cary Elwes, or Eric Idle would make a great 
Lockhart.

>I have never seen Clive Owen before, but wow . . . that's my Sirius.
>Although against all reason, I picture him being clean-shaven (sure,
>he hasn't had time or breath for a haircut since leaving Azkaban, but
>he hates a scratchy chin, so he does a quick wandless "Depilio!" every
>morning).

I dunno. Although my Sirius was "formed" by the voice Jim Dale used for him 
and I see him as a little older with scruffier hair and an unshaven beard.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Feb 15 14:35:44 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:35:44 -0500
Subject: Great Casting Site
In-Reply-To: <96gjke+nq7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215093333.0508b290@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12307

If you haven't been there yet, keep an eye on:

http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery.htm

Rames has done the best job I've seen keeping on top of casting plus he has 
some great image galleries of the actors. His picture of David Bradley 
(Filch) almost looks like the picture of Filch I have in my head. Plus he 
lists all the uncast parts.




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Thu Feb 15 14:58:36 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 06:58:36 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BE07@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 12308



** --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at h...> 
** > Lockhart=Cary Elwes.  I dont remember who brought this up, 
** but it is 
** > GENIUS!!
** 
** I'm definately with everyone else on this one, I think Cary Elwes 
** would make a great Lockhart. Also, as CoS is the first time we see 
** Arthur Weasley, I'd just like to say that if he's not played by Hugh 
** Laurie (probably most famous for his roles in Blackadder and the 
** Jeeves and Wooster TV series, 
** http://us.imdb.com/Name?Laurie,+Hugh), I 
** may have to 
** boycott the movie.
** -Mike

I definitely agree about Cary Elwes, but Hugh Laurie is a brilliant choice!
I love Hugh Laurie and he'd be excellent.

Meredith



From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Thu Feb 15 15:18:02 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:18:02 -0500
Subject: Casting; ages; accents
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC068F@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12309

Hi, everyone!
 
Since I get the digest, I'm chiming in late (as usual).
 
First: to the casting of characters, relative ages, etc.
 
Hugh Laurie as Arthur: Yes! Yes! Yes! This is perfect. Someone asked if he
played the cop in the Borrowers. I haven't seen it, but if you saw the
recent filming of Stuart Little, he played the father, and he was the grumpy
husband of the overly talkative niece in Sense and Sensibility (in which he
was wasted, IMO).
 
Of the choices we've discussed so far, Daniel Day-Lewis seems the best for
Sirius. I have no strong opinions about most of the others. Perhaps we need
some new faces.
 
As to relative ages, I have a question about the JKR interview: She said
that Dumbledore is 150, and that McGonagall is 70--but did she actually SAY
that wizards have longer lifespans? I assumed that Dumbledore's advanced age
has to do with working with Nick Flaumel on the Philospher's Stone, not with
any natural tendency to live longer.
 
Also, related to that issue, we know that Minerva has been teaching since
the Marauders began school. Why? Because we are told in PoA that Dumbledore
became Headmaster the year Remus started at Hogwarts, making it possible for
him to attend. And we are told by Tom Riddle's diary in CoS that Dumbledore
taught Transfiguration. They didn't need two Transfiguration teachers, so
McGonagall must have been hired to replace Dumbledore when he became
Headmaster and stopped actively teaching. So she's been teaching for about
25 years.
 
We are told in PoA and GoF that Lupin and Black both appear to be in their
mid-thirties. This makes sense if one considers that the kids are around 14
at this time (relative to their birthdays), and that James and Lily were
young when they had Harry. (They can't be much younger than that, or Lily
would have had Harry when she was only 18 or so. I think they started early,
but not quite that early.) Snape is the same age because they were all in
the same year, according to Lupin. However, whomever said that they've all
had some tough lives is quite right: they're all bound to appear a little
older than they are. It's not even necessary to have been through a great
deal of stress: I have a friend who began going grey at the temples by the
time he was 24.
 
A final comment about American actors and British accents: I must take
exception to this remark. Kevin effing Costner aside, I am a professional
actor, I am an American, and I can do a number of British dialects. Maybe
not 100% perfectly, but in point of fact, it took two Exchange Student
friends in high school--one English (Simon) and one Scottish (Malcolm) to
teach me NOT to pick up other people's accents. It can be learned--just like
British actors (such as Jeremy Irons, Alan Rickman, and even Cary Elwes) can
learn to speak with an American accent. So there! ;^P
 
Gwen



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 15:45:50 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:45:50 -0000
Subject: Casting; ages; accents
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC068F@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <96gtje+tpk9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12310

Gwen wrote:
  
> As to relative ages, I have a question about the JKR interview: She 
said
> that Dumbledore is 150, and that McGonagall is 70--but did she 
actually SAY
> that wizards have longer lifespans? 

Yeah, she said McGonagall was 70 and that that was middle-aged for a 
wizard.

Another reason we know MM was teaching during the MWPP years:  she 
talks about James, Sirius and Peter's student days in PA (the 3 
Broomsticks scene).  She might even have been the Transfiguration 
teacher for years before Dumbledore became Head--he might've done 
something in between.  

(Also, even if Hogwarts has only ~280 students, there DOES have to be 
more than one professor in a subject like Transfiguration.  I know JKR 
doesn't tell us about them, but one teacher can't cover 20+ classes 
per term.  Uh, without magic, that is.  <g>)

> We are told in PoA and GoF that Lupin and Black both appear to be in 
>their mid-thirties. 

Where?  I only recall that Lupin, at least, is "young-looking," 
whatever that means to Harry (probably no more than 40, IMO).

> A final comment about American actors and British accents: I must 
take
> exception to this remark. Kevin effing Costner aside, I am a 
professional
> actor, I am an American, and I can do a number of British dialects. 
Maybe
> not 100% perfectly, but in point of fact, it took two Exchange 
Student
> friends in high school--one English (Simon) and one Scottish 
(Malcolm) to
> teach me NOT to pick up other people's accents. It can be 
learned--just like
> British actors (such as Jeremy Irons, Alan Rickman, and even Cary 
Elwes) can
> learn to speak with an American accent. So there! ;^P

No offense, Gwen and all fine acting professionals, but *most* actors 
just can't pull it off to the satisfaction of the native speakers.  
Somewhere along the line they slip up in a way that only a native 
would notice.  Bob Hoskins is the only actor I've ever heard who could 
really hold it for a whole movie.  Okay, and Antony Sher did a really 
good NY accent on the stage in Torch Song Trilogy.

I remember seeing a production of Deathtrap in London and wincing 
throughout at the wavering American accents--which probably sounded 
just fine to the British members of the audience, just as all you 
usually have to do to convince Americans that you're doing a British 
accent is to drop your r's.

I just like the commitment to casting British actors because I think 
Hollywood is way too dominant in the world movie scene already.  Every 
time the banner for "Sixth Sense" flashes here on my YahooGroups 
screen, I whisper thanks to JKR for holding her ground against Haley 
Harry Joel Osment Potter.  But I fancy an American Lockhart as 
British revenge for all those U.S. movies that make all the Nazis and 
other evil characters have British accents.  Clash of Empires!

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------
Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole
farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Feb 15 16:09:35 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:09:35 -0000
Subject: Great Casting Site re: Morgana
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215093333.0508b290@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <96guvv+o2pd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12311

 "B.K. DeLong" wrote:
> If you haven't been there yet, keep an eye on:
> 
> http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery.htm
> 
> Rames has done the best job I've seen keeping on top of casting 
plus he has 
> some great image galleries of the actors. His picture of David 
Bradley 
> (Filch) almost looks like the picture of Filch I have in my head. 
Plus he 
> lists all the uncast parts.

I agree it is a nice web site.

But, I thought Morgana from the Chocolate Frog cards was female. I 
don't have the books with me at this moment, but didn't say he had a 
number of 'her' cards already and gave it to Harry?

:-)Milz




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Feb 15 16:12:57 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:12:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Great Casting Site re: Morgana
In-Reply-To: <96guvv+o2pd@eGroups.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215093333.0508b290@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215111123.04e7ce10@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12312

At 04:09 PM 02/15/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>But, I thought Morgana from the Chocolate Frog cards was female. I
>don't have the books with me at this moment, but didn't say he had a
>number of 'her' cards already and gave it to Harry?

Yes, but a male actor, John Hurt, announced in a British paper that he 
would be playing the witch in the movie as a cameo.

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_11_archive.html#2344629


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 16:19:18 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:19:18 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <96dvhg+5vai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96gvi6+u438@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12313

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Okay, campers, Julie Walters thinks they're gonna start shooting CoS 
> this year (if they're going to even try to make all 7 while keeping 
> the same three actors as the Trio they have to shoot close to one 
per 
> year), so the time has come for us to weigh in:
> 
> Who should play Lockhart?  (stop saying Greg Kinnear, we need a 
Brit!)

I like the idea of Cary Elwes, as many have said, although I think a 
Cary Elwes from the past is what we mostly have in mind.  Where'd I 
leave my time-turner?  Seriously though, the only alternative that 
gives me a grin is Daneil Lapaine.  I know he's an Aussie, but I think 
he could pull it off.  He's got the cheezy grin, and can do the 
vacuousness.  He may be a little young, but easier to age up a younger 
man that 'youthen an older one, I think.  See him as Prince Wendell 
(dog in a prince's body) in the 10th Kingdom miniseries from last year 
- you can sometimes find it at Blockbuster.

Kimberly




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 16:23:13 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:23:13 -0000
Subject: Lupin, Sirius and Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <004601c096ed$57d89080$52e7183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <96gvph+8136@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12314

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> Joseph Fiennes might make a good Tom Riddle as well.  I just saw 
the X-Men and I think Hugh Jackman (Wolverine) would make an 
excellent Sirius (he's Australian).  I already stated my preference 
for Lockhart, but as I doubt that Hugh Laurie will be cast in that 
role, my second vote goes to Carey Elwes.  Someone mentioned Jeremy 
Irons for Lupin.  I see him more as Voldemort...when they get to GoF 
that is.  As for Lupin...I know he's not British, but I always have 
and always will picture Lupin as Kevin Spacey.
> 
> ender
>   > 
> 
> I've never seen Joseph Fiennes in anything, so I can't say much 
about him.  How about Liam Neeson for Lupin?  He's fairly young, but 
can play just about anything (Rob Roy, the professor in Nell, Michael 
Collins, etc.)  He's Irish, but does a good British accent.  

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb 15 17:13:12 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:13:12 -0600
Subject: Movie vs. audiobook
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215092758.05076b90@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3A8C0E27.418DC1BD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12315

"B.K. DeLong" wrote:

> I dunno. Although my Sirius was "formed" by the voice Jim Dale used
> for him and I see him as a little older with scruffier hair and an
> unshaven beard.

Aha! This illustrates something I've wondered about. Are all of you who
swear you won't see the movie, based on the objection that it will mess
up the book for you, out there listening to audio interpretations?
Because audiobooks do the same thing you all fear the movie will do,
i.e., color your interpretations of it.

Especially Jim Dale, who "performs" the book instead of simply reading
it. [To a lesser degree, admittedly, but in this case, smaller things
tend to be more ineradicable, because they slide in on a subliminal
level, not as noticable as movie-level changes.]

This sort of feeds into the whole fanfic thing; I won't read any until
after the whole series is done, because I don't want confusion over
little things. I depend a lot on instinct ("I know I read that
somewhere, it was in book X") and if little, tiny, hard-to-detect things
sneak in on me from fanfic, I will remember the detail more than I will
remember the source.

The movie will be big, its departures will be noticeable, it will be an
entity in itself and easy to compartmentalize as such; I don't have as
much problem with the movie coloring how I see the characters, as I do
with an audio interpretation. But the Jim Dale audiobooks seem the same
as canon to many, from what I've read. Thoughts?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 17:15:51 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:15:51 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <96ev6l+bt27@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96h2s7+uro9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12316

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mschub at y... wrote:

> Also, as CoS is the first time we see 
> Arthur Weasley, I'd just like to say that if he's not played by 
Hugh 
> Laurie (probably most famous for his roles in Blackadder and the 
> Jeeves and Wooster TV series, http://us.imdb.com/Name?
Laurie,+Hugh), I 
> may have to boycott the movie.
> -Mike

HEAR, HEAR!!

I also like the idea of an American Lockhart; what was the name of 
that grinning blond (rug) gameshow host from the '80s? 
Hosted "Hollywood Squares", IIRC.
 Also, it's too bad that JKR sapecified the make and model of the 
flying car; I saw a pic of a car that's perfect for the "role", but 
it's not a Ford Anglia! Check out the license plate, though!
http://www.dimequarterly.tierranet.com/registry/510-206961.html






From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb 15 17:20:54 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:20:54 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting; ages; accents
References: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC068F@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <3A8C0FF6.80E3A756@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12317

"Hillman, Lee" wrote:

> A final comment about American actors and British accents: I must take
> exception to this remark. Kevin effing Costner aside, I am a
> professional actor, I am an American, and I can do a number of British
> dialects. Maybe not 100% perfectly, but in point of fact, it took two
> Exchange Student friends in high school--one English (Simon) and one
> Scottish (Malcolm) to teach me NOT to pick up other people's accents.
> It can be learned--just like British actors (such as Jeremy Irons,
> Alan Rickman, and even Cary Elwes) can
> learn to speak with an American accent. So there! ;^P

Calm thyself. Last year, I think the group had a case of the collective
heebees at the thought of Rosie O'Donnell, who *cannot* do accents,
actually wangling the part of Molly Weasley, and it caused us to protest
too much. Dialects can be done convincingly, yes--remember Roger Rabbit?
The cabbie? It's still a complete shock when I hear him in his native
dialect--he's British--because he sounded so truly American (New York, I
think; it's been a while). But I think we're all so worried about the
purity of the storyline and details, we don't want to have to worry
about them *sounding* wrong, too....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 18:00:05 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:00:05 -0800
Subject: Hey, wanna smoke some Muggles?
Message-ID: <200102151800.KAA20033@cobrand.salon.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12318

mlleelizabeth at aol.com thought you would be interested in this article at
Salon.com http://www.salon.com
mlleelizabeth at aol.com came from IP: 152.163.206.176

Your friend's message:
Has Voldemort infiltrated the DEA?

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Hey, wanna smoke some Muggles?
By Tom McNichol

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/02/15/drug_lingo/index.html

The drug culture has a language all its own, an underground dialect of slang and idiom familiar only to those in the know. But don't take my word for it. The White House <a href="/directory/topics/ondcp/index.html">Office of National Drug Control Policy,</a> the nation's chief anti-drug agency, has compiled an exhaustive, and thoroughly exhausting, <a target="new" href="http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/streetterms/Default.asp">database</a> of more than 2,300 street terms for drugs or drug-related activity, like, say, taking drugs.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Thu Feb 15 10:00:05 2001




From sadie_row at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 18:15:40 2001
From: sadie_row at hotmail.com (sadie_row at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:15:40 -0000
Subject: Newbie...and a question or two 
Message-ID: <96h6cc+4dtr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12319

Hi! I'm delurking for the first time here, so just thought
I'd say hi 
and ask a question or two (hope they haven't been asked to death 
already)

I've noticed quite a bit of discussion about Harry/Hermione vs. 
Ron/Hermione. I'd always been in the latter camp, in fact, I was 
surprised to learn that H/H fans even existed until discovering them 
here! So, naturally, I'm curious. Could someone explain the
theories 
behind H/H to me, so I feel a little more in the loop here? I'd 
really appreciate it! Thanks!

Lallybroch






From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 18:31:49 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:31:49 -0000
Subject: Casting couch: OT - Sirius & Remus suggestions/Movie - Rik Mayall as Peeves
In-Reply-To: <000c01c09725$eb787ca0$703570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96h7al+66hs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12320

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> I have two new(ish) casting suggestions for Sirius and Remus.  For 
Sirius, I suggest Clive Owen, who has amazing bright green eyes 
(they'd have to go, unfortunately... well, the colour of them... I 
don't mean gouge his eyes out):
> For Remus, how about Colin Firth (I think he's come up before).
> Rik Mayall is pretty much confirmed as Peeves, so I've put two new 
pics of him in "Confirmed Cast" (I've moved Verne Troyer to "Rumoured 
Cast" as "a ghoul?").  I posted a biog of Rik a while back...
> Rik would also have been *great* as Lockhart.  I'm a bit stuck on 
that one.  I think it should be a comedian, but the only ones I can 
think of aren't that pretty (for example Steve "Alan Partridge" 
Coogan or Chris "Red Dwarf" Barrie).  Eddie Izzard would be cool, but 
he's too chunky.
> 
> Never heard of Cary Elwes, but he's been mentioned here about a 
hundred times!!
> Neil

Neil, I put two pics of Cary Elwes in the cast suggestions file.  
There are plenty of sites out there with pics of him, if anyone's 
interested.  I looked at the pics of Owen and Firth you put up, and I 
must say, I -can- see either of them in those roles, Owen 
especially.  Mayall would have done well as Lockhart, I think, too, 
(if you've seen him in "2 Days in The Valley", he played a character 
vaguely similar to GL), though I'm fine with him as Peeves.  As an 
aside, Chris Barrie may not be as *pretty* as GL, but Ace would 
certainly fill the role well. ;o]  Don't get me started with Izzard, 
I'm completely in love with him, and it would be heaven to see him 
anywhere in the HP films... :swoon:... (Even though I can't think 
what role he would be right for.)

Kelley




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Feb 15 18:40:16 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:40:16 -0700
Subject: CASTING: Cary Elwes
In-Reply-To: <96h7al+66hs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIELIDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12321

Those having trouble placing Cary Elwes might have seen the movie "Twister"
which starred Helen Hunt?  Cary played Jonas, the head of the rival
storm-chasers, who got sucked into the F5 tornado near the end of the movie.

I see Lockhart as a cartoon -- if they can find an actor who looks and acts
like the cartoon Dudley Do-Right, or maybe Gaston from "Beauty and the
Beast" (Disney), then they'll have the right person.  Can't wait to hear the
immortal words:  "Harry, Harry, Harry..."


SML

=========================================
Americans are getting stronger.
Twenty years ago, it took two people to
carry ten dollars' worth of groceries.
Today, a five-year-old can do it.
==========================================




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 18:45:26 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:45:26 -0000
Subject: Casting couch 2: Voldemort-Riddle idea
In-Reply-To: <006401c0972f$8f35d1e0$703570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96h846+kv4q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12322

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> I'm suddenly caught up in casting suggestions again... 
> 
> Since Ian Hart will be playing Voldemort as well as Quirrell, 
perhaps the actor who plays Tom Riddle needs to resemble him?
> 
> I've noticed that Ian Hart and Jamie Bell (previously touted as a 
possible Harry Potter) look very similar.  Bell is now 15 going on 
16, so he's the right age for Riddle. Take a look at this 'separated 
at birth' picture I've posted to our Graphics club:
> 
> Of course, neither of these actors look like Dan Radcliffe and HP 
is supposed to resemble TR.  Oh, no - my world is torn apart by these 
cinematic discrepancies...
> 
> Neil

I'm sorry, sorry, sorry for the 'me too' post, (that's what I get for 
not catching up before replying) but Jamie Bell would be an 
outstanding choice as Riddle.  I was just trying to think of a young 
actor yesterday who would be good for that role; I can't believe he 
didn't occur to me.  To save this from being totally 'me too', I'll 
add:  I think the only remarks Riddle makes regarding the resemblance 
between him and Harry is that "We even ~look~ something alike..."  
The only physical description given of Riddle is "tall, black-haired 
boy..."  So, there aren't many particulars given as to their 
resemblance; perhaps this is something that makeup and so forth can 
develop, improve, etc.

Kelley 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 19:10:04 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:10:04 -0000
Subject: Number 12 - Astrology
In-Reply-To: <96e6i6+sfbg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96h9ic+l9h3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12323

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Has anyone else noticed that the number 12 keeps cropping up?

All three Triwizards events take place on the 24th of a month.  
Multiples count in numerology.

We seem to have a few astrologers on here.  Won't someone do Harry's 
and Hermione's star charts for us and post them?  Or do you need to 
know the time of day they were born?

If you get two Neptunes, you're on the right track.

;-)
Amy Z




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 19:16:24 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:16:24 -0000
Subject: CASTING: Cary Elwes -- Gaston?
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIELIDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <96h9u8+f7jn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12324

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> Those having trouble placing Cary Elwes might have seen the 
movie "Twister"
> which starred Helen Hunt?  Cary played Jonas, the head of the rival
> storm-chasers, who got sucked into the F5 tornado near the end of 
the movie.
> 
> I see Lockhart as a cartoon -- if they can find an actor who looks 
and acts
> like the cartoon Dudley Do-Right, or maybe Gaston from "Beauty and 
the
> Beast" (Disney), then they'll have the right person.  Can't wait to 
hear the
> immortal words:  "Harry, Harry, Harry..."
> 
> 
> SML

Oh, Sr. ML, thank you!  I mentioned that a blond wavy-haired Gaston 
was exactly how I pictured Lockhart sometime ago, and there wasn't 
any reply.  I'm so glad I'm not alone.  Gaston is such a buffoon, and 
so properly full of himself, and of course all the village girls 
swoon over him.  I think this is the reason I picture GL 
as 'strapping', and Elwes doesn't really fit that to me.  Of course, 
my picture of Peeves is a cross between "The Funky Phantom" and Uncle 
Albert from "Mary Poppins", too, so...

Kelley






From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Thu Feb 15 19:21:07 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:21:07 -0500
Subject: accents (was casting; ages; accents)
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0694@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12325

Amy Z wrote:
> No offense, Gwen and all fine acting professionals, but *most* actors 
> just can't pull it off to the satisfaction of the native speakers.
 
True; and some dialects are easier to do than others. I suck, for example,
at a Liverpool or Cornish accent. However, I get tired of people (including
Americans) generalizing all American actors by that particular jerk. 
 
And Amanda said:
> But I think we're all so worried about the
                 purity of the storyline and details, we don't want to have
to worry
                 about them *sounding* wrong, too....
 
So evidently my emoticon didn't sufficiently signify that I'm poking fun.
I'm all for British actors in British roles wherever possible. Although, as
a life-long supporter of non-traditional casting, I also strongly believe
that the part should go to the actor best suited and most capable of playing
it, regardless of accident of birth. <shrug> Call it a hot button.
 
Sorry if it came out more vehement.
 
Gwen
 
 
 



From chessdiva at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 19:22:05 2001
From: chessdiva at hotmail.com (Lisa Gansky)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:22:05 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call
Message-ID: <F1194pVhvnTferfBud4000163df@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12326

Parker wrote:

>After seeing what a horrible mess Kevin Costner made of a British
>accent in "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves", I'm really leery of
>casting anyone but a British actor in a British movie.  I can't think
>of one American actor who could even do a British accent, but then, I
>spend my life watching British movies, so I'm probably not the best
>one to chime in on actors themselves.

Oh come on...Gwyneth Paltrow isn't THAT bad, is she? ;)

~Lisa...who's Half Brit/Half Amerk... ;)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 19:25:04 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:25:04 -0000
Subject: Number 12 - Astrology
In-Reply-To: <96h9ic+l9h3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96haeg+p66l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12327

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > Has anyone else noticed that the number 12 keeps cropping up?
> 
> All three Triwizards events take place on the 24th of a month.  
> Multiples count in numerology.
> 
> We seem to have a few astrologers on here.  Won't someone do 
Harry's 
> and Hermione's star charts for us and post them?  Or do you need to 
> know the time of day they were born?
> 
> If you get two Neptunes, you're on the right track.
> 
> ;-)
> Amy Z

Amy,

That would be fun!  You *do* have to know the time of day (or night) 
and the place where a person was born to do a proper chart.  I'd love 
it if we could know Sirius', Remus', & Severus' charts as well.  


As for numerology, that could be easily done, although it works best 
if you know the person's full name.

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Feb 15 19:31:17 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:31:17 -0000
Subject: The Appearance of the Number 12
In-Reply-To: <96e6i6+sfbg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96haq5+108a1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12328

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Has anyone else noticed that the number 12 keeps cropping up?
> There are twelve Christmas trees set up in the Great Hall each year.
> There are twelve different ways to use Dragon's Blood.
> Harry thought, "he'd have gambled twelve Sorceror's Stones that 
Snape 
> had just left the room." SS-15
> 
Just a little thought...
The number 3 is supposed to be magical. In Shakespeare's "Macbeth", 9 
is a significant/magical/evil number because it is 3 times 3. Witches 
believe in the power of 3 (If they do something bad to someone else, 
they will get it back three times as bad). Perhaps 12, being 4 times 
3, is JKR's version of this.

Just MHO :)

Sarah




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 19:31:28 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:31:28 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <F1194pVhvnTferfBud4000163df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96haqg+6sp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12329

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa Gansky" <chessdiva at h...> wrote:
> Parker wrote:
> 
> >After seeing what a horrible mess Kevin Costner made of a British
> >accent in "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves", I'm really leery of
> >casting anyone but a British actor in a British movie.  I can't 
think
> >of one American actor who could even do a British accent, but 
then, I
> >spend my life watching British movies, so I'm probably not the best
> >one to chime in on actors themselves.
> 
> Oh come on...Gwyneth Paltrow isn't THAT bad, is she? ;)
> 
> ~Lisa...who's Half Brit/Half Amerk... ;)


I can't recall ever seeing Gwyneth Paltrow in *anything*.  I did 
think of one American actress who could pull off pretty much any 
accent & that's Meryl Streep.  My movie-going is limited pretty much 
to historical shows (Rob Roy, Braveheart, etc.) so I'm probably not 
the best person to judge these things.  

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Feb 15 19:34:10 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:34:10 -0500
Subject: Official Harry Potter site Launches Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <96haqg+6sp3@eGroups.com>
References: <F1194pVhvnTferfBud4000163df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215143316.05699ec0@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12330

Hi all -

Empire Online has announced that the Official Harry Potter Movie site will 
launch tomorrow in the UK:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_11_archive.html#2387554




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 19:54:45 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:54:45 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Number 12 - Astrology
Message-ID: <de.104a0962.27bd8e05@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12331

In a message dated 2/15/2001 1:27:34 PM Central Standard Time, 
pbnesbit at msn.com writes:


> That would be fun!  You *do* have to know the time of day (or night) 
> and the place where a person was born to do a proper chart.  I'd love 
> it if we could know Sirius', Remus', & Severus' charts as well.  
> 
> 
It is much, much better to have the time of birth, but it is possible to 
prepare a chart without it.  You only need to know the place in order to 
determine the time zone, and all of England is in one time zone, I believe 
(if this is wrong, someone please let me know).

I've used www.awarenet.com to obtain natal charts for both Harry and Hermione 
(in Hermione's case I've got 2 charts, one using 1980 as her birth year and 
the other using 1979) and to obtain relationship charts for them (again, 
using both years for Hermione).  

Since we don't know the time of birth of either of them, they charts are 
certainly not as good as they could be.  Also, I did not prepare the charts, 
Awarenet did.  If you would like me to post them to the list, I'd be glad to. 
 They are quite long, so I'd probably post them in more than 1 email.

Thanks and,

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 20:18:45 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael-pou)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:18:45 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Newbie...and a question or two
References: <96h6cc+4dtr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE19oxJ6sJ9amqkhqnt0000753d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12332

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: sadie_row at hotmail.com 


  Hi! I'm delurking for the first time here, so just thought
  I'd say hi 
  and ask a question or two (hope they haven't been asked to death 
  already).
  I've noticed quite a bit of discussion about Harry/Hermione vs. 
  Ron/Hermione. I'd always been in the latter camp, in fact, I was 
  surprised to learn that H/H fans even existed until discovering them 
  here! So, naturally, I'm curious. Could someone explain the
  theories 
  behind H/H to me, so I feel a little more in the loop here? I'd 
  really appreciate it! Thanks!

  Lallybroch

Hello,

Welcome to the list!

There is a very good reason for the H/H ships. There are several extremely good fanfiction stories (loosely-Harry Potter based fiction) which present this pairing. These fics had converted many of their readers. There was actually a survey that sowed the change in ship-preference before/after reading them. The most famous H/H fics are:
HP & The Paradigm of Uncertainty, by Lori Summers
Draco Dormiens / Draco Sinister, by Cassandra Claire

All three can be found in http://fanfiction.net or in the file section of the ParadigmOfUncertainty egroup (yahoogroup now).

One more invention of fanfiction is the Draco-Malfoy-was-an-abused-child-and-he-is-now-reformed. There are many who put him with Hermione, or even with Ginny Weasley. *choke*

If you want more, mail me privately, and I'll happily refer you to many good fics.

yael





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mschub at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 20:17:57 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (Mike Schubert)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:17:57 -0000
Subject: American Lockhart?
Message-ID: <96hdhl+91tu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12333

Does it ever say explicitly anywhere that Lockhart is British? Or that 
he went to school at Hogwarts? Or anything about his past? Because if 
not (and I don't recall anywhere that it did), I could CERTAINLY see 
him as an American. Just as a sidenote, when I picture Lockhart, I 
picture him as Fabio, only a little less "muscly". I can't think of 
anyone, American or otherwise, that could really play that though.
-Mike




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Feb 15 20:18:13 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:18:13 -0000
Subject: Number 12 - Astrology
In-Reply-To: <96h9ic+l9h3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96hdi5+hsrg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12334

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > Has anyone else noticed that the number 12 keeps cropping up?
> 
> All three Triwizards events take place on the 24th of a month.  
> Multiples count in numerology.

Here is another one:

"I must admit, Peter, I have difficulty in understanding why an 
innocent man would want to spend twelve years as a rat," said Lupin 
evenly. PoA-19  :) Doreen




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Feb 15 20:37:24 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:37:24 -0000
Subject: Help! McGonagall's book of babies born with magical powers
Message-ID: <96hem4+pvco@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12335

I have spent way too much time punching in word after word in the 
search here and also in the Lexicon and have come away empty handed 
or maybe I am just empty headed. :)

I am trying to find the reference to the book or scroll in which it 
is written which babies are born with magical powers and upon their 
eleventh birthdays, get sent invitations to Hogwarts.

I know this is referred to at least once, if not twice.

Thank you
Doreen




From rina at love-productions.com  Thu Feb 15 20:40:42 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:40:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call
Message-ID: <009701c0978f$9743e2e0$4b3b9eac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12336

Parker wrote:

<<I can't recall ever seeing Gwyneth Paltrow in *anything*.  I did 
think of one American actress who could pull off pretty much any 
accent & that's Meryl Streep.  My movie-going is limited pretty much 
to historical shows (Rob Roy, Braveheart, etc.) so I'm probably not 
the best person to judge these things.  
>>

I think she did good accents in Shakespeare in Love and Sliding Doors. Gillian Anderson can do British, mostly because she lived in England when she was a kid. <g> I've always pictured Lily looking like her. American guys who can do incredible English accents are James Marsters (Spike on Buffy) and Alexis Denisof (Wesley on Angel). Both of them are mid-30s, which is right for Marauders according to some sources. <g> 

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Thu Feb 15 20:43:58 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:43:58 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call
References: <009701c0978f$9743e2e0$4b3b9eac@shelley>
Message-ID: <01a501c09790$0679bc20$ae457bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12337

 American guys who can do incredible English accents are James Marsters
(Spike on Buffy) and Alexis Denisof (Wesley on Angel). Both of them are
mid-30s, which is right for Marauders according to some sources. <g>
There are still times when I can clearly tell that they are both not
Brits. Although I am aware that AD did train over here,. Sorry, but I
remain a picky Brit who thinks Brits should get first Dibs at Casting
for a change !!

Michelle




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 21:00:49 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:00:49 EST
Subject: Harry's Natal Chart (Long)
Message-ID: <8a.2731cb8.27bd9d81@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12338

The following astrological chart was prepared by Awarenet, a website that has 
an easy to use form to calculate a variety of astrological charts (both for 
free and for a fee).  The opinions and observations presented in this chart 
are those of Awarenet, not of the person posting it.  ***This chart was not 
prepared by me and does not in any way reflect my opinions concerning any of 
the characters.***  My intention in posting the chart is that it be used for 
fun discussion purposes and not that it be taken seriously.  As we don't know 
the characters' birth times, portions of this chart may incorrect.  I used 
12:00 p.m. as the birth time to calculate what Awarenet calls a "natural" 
chart.   The most likely portions affected by birth time are the moon and 
ascendant.  I have used London as the birthplace for all characters born in 
England because it is contained in Awarenet's database and shares the same 
time zone with all other cities in England.  Awarenet's URL is: 
www.awarenet.com

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


Positions for Harry Potter
Birth Chart Interpretation for Harry PotterBorn 7/31/1980 12:00
In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: -1)

? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 8 Leo 22? ? 18N10
?? Moon? ? 27 Pisces 39? ? 3S53
?? Mercury? ? 19 Cancer 0? ? 20N07
?? Venus? ? 25 Gemini 32? ? 18N40
?? Mars? ? 12 Libra 0? ? 4S42
?? Jupiter? ? 11 Virgo 32? ? 8N12
?? Saturn? ? 24 Virgo 0? ? 4N19
?? Uranus? ? 21 Scorpio 30? ? 17S53
?? Neptune? ? 20 Sagittarius 10? ? 21S42
?? Pluto? ? 19 Libra 10? ? 8N07
?? Node? ? 20 Leo 39? ? 14N37
?? Ascendant? ? 16 Libra 57? ? 6S39
?? Midheaven? ? 22 Cancer 16? ? 21N36

Tropical ZodiacSun in Leo:
? ? Proud and intensely individual, you really want to stand out, to be the 
very best you can be, and to be recognized and appreciated for your unique 
contributions. Doing something well and being respected for it is extremely 
important to you, and you cannot tolerate being in the background, taking 
orders from others, or being "just one of the team". You must put your 
personal stamp on whatever you do, and direct your own course in life. You 
need to have a place where you can shine, express yourself creatively, and be 
the one in charge. 

? ? You have big dreams and the determination, spirit, vitality, and 
enthusiasm to bring them into being. You also have a noble, romantic heart, 
and a love of the dramatic,
colorful, and extravagant. 

? ? For you it is true that "all the world's a stage" and you secretly (or 
perhaps not so secretly) desire to be the Star or Hero in the play. You want 
to be great, and to
receive the love and applause of an adoring audience, even if the "audience" 
is just one other special person. You need someone to believe in you and your 
dreams. Though you appear radiantly self-confident and independent, you are 
actually very much dependent on the affirmation, love, and recognition of 
others. You cannot bear being unnoticed or unappreciated. 

? ? You also love wholeheartedly and generously and really know how to make 
the person you love feel special. You love the magic of "being in love" and 
know how to keep the romance alive in your relationships. You are also 
immensely loyal and will defend your loved ones and stand by them to the end 
- as long as they never offend your pride or betray your trust. However, you 
like to be the strong one in a relationship and you really do not share the 
leading role very easily. Ideally you need to find a person who is as 
strong-willed as yourself, but who will not try to dominate
or compete with you. 

? ? Your strengths are your zest and love for life, your creative power, and 
your warm and generous heart. Your primary fault is your tendency to be very 
egocentric, so
concerned with the impression you are making and with your own creative self- 
expression that you forget there is another, larger world that does not 
revolve around you. 

Moon in Pisces:
? ? Tenderhearted and sympathetic to an unusual degree, you have an 
understanding of other people's feelings and needs which borders on being 
telepathic. You are extremely compassionate and cannot bear to see any fellow 
creature - be it human or animal - suffer. Because of your kindness and 
nonjudgmental attitude, people in pain or confusion are drawn to you for 
help, which you readily give. Sometimes your softheartedness is taken 
advantage of. 

? ? You are a gentle, poetic soul and have a great love and affinity for 
music. Because many of your feelings are nebulous and vague and you cannot 
easily verbalize how you experience life, music seems a natural language for 
you. You are also tremendously romantic and are often "in love with love". 

Ascendant in Libra:
? ? You are a natural diplomat, reasonable, tolerant, fair, always willing to 
listen to varying viewpoints, and ready to see the other side of an issue. 
Even if you strongly
disagree with someone, you will try to find points of similarity and 
agreement rather than emphasizing the differences. You often avoid taking an 
extreme or one-sided
stance on anything. You have a strong desire for harmonious and pleasant 
relationships, and express a spirit of cooperation, compromise, friendship, 
and fairness. You very much want to be liked and because of your need for 
approval
and acceptance, you are easily influenced by others' opinions, especially 
when young. You so much want to please that often you will suppress your own 
intense or unpleasant feelings in order not to offend others. Sometimes your 
politeness is interpreted as phoniness or wishy-washiness.
 
? ? Your need to create harmony extends to your physical environment and 
personal appearance as well. You appreciate beauty and have a natural sense 
of balance, symmetry, and proportion. You do everything in good taste, with a 
sense of style and art. From your home furnishings to your choice of 
clothing, everything must be aesthetically appealing, not simply functional 
or utilitarian. 

? ? You also feel that relationships are an art, one that especially 
interests you and one that you are usually quite skilled at, for you possess 
tact and acute awareness of other people. Marriage is very significant to you 
and finding the right person to share your life with is extremely important. 
Being part of a close couple seems
natural to you - you are not an independent loner. Having a partner increases 
your self- confidence. You do have a tendency, however, to become overly 
dependent on your partner and perhaps not to develop a clearly defined 
identity outside of the relationship. Finding the balance between being 
yourself and blending and uniting with another is a challenge for you. 

? ? Others see you as an agreeable, smooth, harmonious, and "nice" person. 
Though there may be much more to you, this is the sort of face you show to 
the world. You possess personal charm and an understated, noncombative 
manner. Your motto
could be "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" for you usually 
take a friendly, cooperative approach rather than a strong, forceful, 
I'm-going-to-conquer-the-world attitude. 

Sun Semisquare Venus:
? ? You are loving and well-loved by others, and have a strong need for 
kindness, friendship, and affection. Your artistic and creative powers are 
also well developed and you do everything in a harmonious, gracious, pleasing 
manner. Aesthetics are very important to you. Your personal appearance and 
attractiveness are also very important to you.? 

Sun Sextile Mars:
? ?? You can be an inspiring leader of a team or group effort. Your dynamism 
and energy evokes the same in others, and you see healthy competition between 
people as a plus. Generally, you enjoy fine health as well.? 

Sun Semisquare Saturn:
? ? Feelings of personal inadequacy, inhibitions, and self-doubt often plague 
you. You have a cautious, careful, realistic attitude toward life and are 
highly responsible
and disciplined with regard to your obligations and duties. You tend to work 
and struggle more than you need to, and to take yourself too seriously. 

Moon Square Venus:
? ? You have conflicting emotional desires and needs which complicate your 
personal life. You may feel that you cannot depend on your love partner to 
take care of you or perhaps you cannot decide what you really want in a love 
relationship: a parent or a lover. If your needs for emotional sustenance and 
love are not satisfied, overeating
(especially sweets) can be a problem for you. 

Moon Opposite Saturn:
? ? Some rather acute fears of being excluded, rejected, left out in the 
cold, or separated from loved ones can make you either extremely cautious 
about getting close to people or hold tightly to whoever gives you any warmth 
or security.
You tend to withhold? and clamp down on many of your feelings and your needs 
for? nurturing and security, perhaps feeling they are unacceptable or? will 
never be satisfied. Learning to be open and trust others, to? nurture 
yourself are important for you. Your earliest years,? especially your 
relationship with your mother, will determine? whether you will overcome your 
fears or retreat behind a mask of 
self-sufficiency and indifference.? 

Moon Trine Midheaven:
? ?? Your career is apt to involve protecting, caring, nurturing, or 
"mothering" in some aspect. Home, family relationships, cherishing the past, 
continuing a tradition
are also featured. You're apt to be quite popular through your profession or 
business. 

Mercury Square Ascendant:
? ?? You may come across a bit scattered, nervous, or restless, as if you 
can't sit still. You seem alert and quick, but sometimes a bit on edge. You 
tend to stay
perpetually busy, and would find handiwork of some kind to be soothing.? 

Mars Conjunct Ascendant:
? ? You are forceful and energetic and go for what you want quite 
aggressively. You are a doer and an achiever and you have a positive "I can" 
attitude. You may run over people and stir up opposition and conflict because 
you tend to be very self- centered, or simply oblivious to the needs and 
intentions of others. 

Neptune Sextile Ascendant:
? ?? You tend to blend in with and take on the characteristics of the people 
in your surroundings, and may thus not make a powerful individual statement 
of your own.
You may project an aura of glamour or "make-believe", and enjoy trying on 
different personalities at different times.

Pluto Conjunct Ascendant:
? ? You are extremely willful, but often achieve your desires in a quiet, 
secretive, or manipulative way. You may be intensely charismatic and wield 
considerable influence
over others, or you may be attracted to such powerful, fascinating 
personalities. You tend to go to extremes in whatever you do, to be 
compulsive, and are driven by a sense of mission or destiny. You don't take 
anything at face value and are always digging beneath the surface for the 
deeper meaning or real motivations of others.? 

Copyright (c) 2000 Astrology 3D, Inc.
This report was written to professional astrological standards, and is meant 
for Awareness Entertainment.

?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 21:26:43 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:26:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting - Fat Lady - Nagini
References: <96gjke+nq7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c09795$ff128920$5deb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12339


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:55 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting - Fat Lady - Nagini
  >>Kevin Spacey for Lupin?  Good actor, but I just can't match Verbal and 
  >>Our Man Remus in my head.  Just goes to show how individual these 
  >>things are (and how no casting director will ever please more than 20% 
  >>of us).  

  Have you seen Pay It Forward?  I was picturing Lupin as Spacey long before that movie came out, but when I saw it, I thought "That's what Lupin  might be like as a Muggle teacher."  The loneliness and compassion are definitely there, though Spacey's teacher is not quite as warm towards his students, as a whole, as Lupin was.  

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 21:22:41 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:22:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SW OT
Message-ID: <F295Ih7jtrSByh133tY0000b760@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12340

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If C3PO was created on Tatteroine, then why didn't he recognize it in 4?
If " was created by Anikin (sp?), then why didn't he recognize the
"SKYWALKER" in Luke? Why didn't Obi recognize the two droids?  He ran with 
at least one during Ep 1 (R2D2) Why does Obi tell Yoda about (paraphrased) 
how I was rash when you trained me, when Quo trained him?

Yah, I know.  You guys started this feature in me--critiquing things to
follow in step!

I've got more...just can't recall them at this time!
~~Dee~~
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahem, just figured I would let my SW know how leak out, if someone else 
answered this, too bad, bc i want to too!  The droids not recognizing 
people/places/things etc ius easily explained...memory wipes.  Obi-Wan 
recognizing the droids is harder to explain.  Many feel he just chose not to 
voice his recognition in fear of scaring Luke.  As to him telling Yoda about 
being rash when Qui Gon Jinn trained him, that is explained that Yoda 
teaches the younger knights, the ones before apprentices, and I am sure as a 
"headmaster" or sorts heis involved in all of the students training.


As to The SW parallels, I look at Yoda as more of a Dumbledore than Obi-Wan. 
  Obi-Wan's character in HP is something more like Sirius to me.  And vader, 
Vader is so not anyone in HP.  He and the Emperor combined make up who 
Voldemort is.  Anyways, May the force be with you...ba ha ha!

Stephanie
Former Star Wars-aholic (just think, it only took me another unhealthy 
obsession, this time with HP, to stop my watching the trilogy 5 times a week 
<vbg>)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Feb 15 21:24:15 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:24:15 -0000
Subject: Star Wars comparison and such...
Message-ID: <96hhdv+fpc3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12341

I'm taking a class here at Ohio State University and we just got 
done reading The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe and Harry Potter 
CoS.  We had a long discussion on comparing the two books.  It was 
interesting.  So this Star Wars comparison is making me giggle 
uncontrollably.  Especially that added dialogue.  Cute.




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 21:31:16 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:31:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call
References: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BE07@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <001601c09796$a1b73180$5deb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12342


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Meredith Wilson 
  To: 'HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com' 
  Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:58 AM
  Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call





  >>I definitely agree about Cary Elwes, but Hugh Laurie is a brilliant choice!
  >>I love Hugh Laurie and he'd be excellent.

  >>Meredith

  for those of you who've seen Blackadder, can't you just picture the Prince-Regent as Lockhart (without so much sexual innuendo of course).  and what about Laurie's other half?  If not Spacey for Lupin, then perhaps Stephen Fry.  He might be a bit too old,(and, some have said, too tall) but I could see him, personality-wise, doing an excellent job with the role.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 21:34:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:34:38 -0000
Subject: for those ISO H/H and McGonagall's book
Message-ID: <96hi1e+99n5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12343

Lallybroch:  welcome!  If you haven't already been bombarded with 
offlist owls about The One and Only True Way of Harry/Hermione 
*cough! wheeze!*, you can search the archives for H/H (you'll find 
about a zillion posts) or read any post by Penny Linsenmayer or Ebony 
Elizabeth Thomas <g> . . . also, look for posts beginning with SHIP 
for an ongoing debate about Who Will/Should/Must End Up With Whom.

Doreen, try searching for magic quill and you'll find posts about the 
book that marks the birth of magical children.  But I don't know 
where the original reference shows up--was it JKR's Scholastic 
interview?

Amy Z





From rina at love-productions.com  Thu Feb 15 21:36:19 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:36:19 -0600
Subject: HP font
Message-ID: <00b601c09797$5c5e1760$4b3b9eac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12344

Does anyone know where I can find the HP font? Either the one with the lightening bolt P, or the one used in the American books for the spine and chapter headings, but preferably the latter. Thanks! 

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Feb 15 21:48:00 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:48:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  accents (was Casting call)
References: <F1194pVhvnTferfBud4000163df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003201c09798$f81ac120$5deb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12345


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lisa Gansky 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 2:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call


  Parker wrote:

  >After seeing what a horrible mess Kevin Costner made of a British
  >accent in "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves", I'm really leery of
  >casting anyone but a British actor in a British movie. 


  Wait, Costner was doing a British accent in Robin Hood?  I never noticed it!


   I can't think
  >of one American actor who could even do a British accent, but then, I
  >spend my life watching British movies, so I'm probably not the best
  >one to chime in on actors themselves.

  Oh come on...Gwyneth Paltrow isn't THAT bad, is she? ;)


  I had no problem with Paltrow's accent in Sliding Doors, but then I'm American, so what do I know?  On the flipside, though, In Primary Colors, while Emma Thompson seemed to struggle a bit with the American accent, the black guy (sorry, I can't remember his name) did a great job. Another excellent performance I can think of is the Australian actor who pulled off a fabulous southern accent (as Sonny Sielor) in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil.
  I personally would have voted for Emma Thompson to be McGonagall...with a little aging makeup. 

  ender





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 21:53:15 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:53:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting couch 2: Voldemort-Riddle idea
Message-ID: <F91hbqs3tOuxtscRM0Y000035f6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12346

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, sorry, sorry for the 'me too' post, (that's what I get for
not catching up before replying) but Jamie Bell would be an
outstanding choice as Riddle.  I was just trying to think of a young
actor yesterday who would be good for that role; I can't believe he
didn't occur to me.  To save this from being totally 'me too', I'll
add:  I think the only remarks Riddle makes regarding the resemblance
between him and Harry is that "We even ~look~ something alike..."
The only physical description given of Riddle is "tall, black-haired
boy..."  So, there aren't many particulars given as to their
resemblance; perhaps this is something that makeup and so forth can
develop, improve, etc.

Kelley
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
See, he would make a GREAT Tom Riddle, but it is kind of my desire to see 
him play Cedric Diggory.  They are both rather small parts, but I don't 
know.

But does anyone else think that the guy playing Flint is too good looking?  
As a horomonally challenged teenager(kidding, kidding) i can say he is very 
good looking, and I just never pictured Flint that way.  he would make a 
good Cedric...

Stephanie
THRILLED with that site...so thanks to who sent it!

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 21:56:43 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:56:43 -0000
Subject: A thought about divination
Message-ID: <96hjar+2hio@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12347

Reading the astrology posts, it occured to me that JKR probably 
doesn't believe at all in astrology (just an impression based on 
her interviews). And then I realized that of all the subjects taught 
in Hogwarts only Divination impresses us as dubious and even 
ridiculous. Add to this the fact that only divination has real-life 
parallels, since astrology, numerology, tea-leaf reading, etc. is 
very very popular now (the other subjects - transfiguration, charms, 
potions, DADA - have much fewer connections with modern reality). 
I'm pretty sure that the way divination is described expresses JKR's 
attitude to real-life arts of divination. The question is - did she 
do this on purpose, to teach children scepticism towards the kinds of 
occultism they might encounter in their everyday life (astrology, 
numerology, Tarot, etc.)? 

Naama




From dorband at uwp.edu  Thu Feb 15 21:57:08 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:57:08 -0000
Subject: Movie vs. audiobook
In-Reply-To: <3A8C0E27.418DC1BD@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96hjbk+37gd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12348

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> "B.K. DeLong" wrote:
> 
>
> Because audiobooks do the same thing you all fear the movie will do,
> i.e., color your interpretations of it.
> 
> Especially Jim Dale, who "performs" the book instead of simply 
reading it. 
> 

I agree with your sentiment that a dramatic reading ie, a performance, 
will color the readers' interpretation of the work.  I don't listen to 
the HP audio books - I did listen to a sample clip I ran across on the 
'net, but wasn't very impressed.  I prefer a story that is "simply 
read" - Actually I like to read the thing myself - it gives all the 
voices in my own head a chance to be heard.  <g>


> This sort of feeds into the whole fanfic thing; I won't read any 
until
> after the whole series is done, because I don't want confusion over
> little things. 
> 
> --Amanda
> 
I posted awhile ago on PoU that I was getting concerned that Cassie's 
Draco was developing so nicely - and believably - that some of us 
might have difficulty holding a grudge against JKR's Draco.  This is a 
testament to Cassie's ability to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. 
 Although I really do appreciate what you're saying, I have been 
faithfully reading the FF (on PoU group only) and I think they are so 
incredibly good that I will gladly struggle with any character/setting 
confusion later.  A great point,tho!

Brian




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 21:58:19 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:58:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Appearance of the Number 12
Message-ID: <F98FopYC98Bi89QtpfT0000357e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12349

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a little thought...
The number 3 is supposed to be magical. In Shakespeare's "Macbeth", 9
is a significant/magical/evil number because it is 3 times 3. Witches
believe in the power of 3 (If they do something bad to someone else,
they will get it back three times as bad). Perhaps 12, being 4 times
3, is JKR's version of this.
Just MHO :)
Sarah
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

OH NO....ha ha ha.  My english teacher goes on and on and on about the 
signifigance of the number 3, and we are about to start Macbeth <vbg>  
Anyways, she looks as it is an evil thing, though she claims "anything 
signifigant comes in 3s or is a multiple of 3"  Anyways...i never noticed 
all of the 12s before, and I htinkit is funny, or maybe it is JKR's fav 
number.  Kind of like when you make a word search(for whatever reason) your 
fav letters, or rather more common letters, appear more than less common 
ones.  Just a thought...

Stephanie
who shudders at the mention of the infamous 3

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 22:14:57 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:14:57 -0000
Subject: The Appearance of the Number 12
In-Reply-To: <96e6i6+sfbg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96hkd1+bdvo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12350

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Has anyone else noticed that the number 12 keeps cropping up?
> There are twelve Christmas trees set up in the Great Hall each 
year.
> There are twelve different ways to use Dragon's Blood.
> Harry thought, "he'd have gambled twelve Sorceror's Stones that 
Snape 
> had just left the room." SS-15
> 

Interesting little point. It got me thinking and ... I believe I've 
found the most important 12 of all! - Harry starts Hogwarts and his 
life as wizard on (in? at? during?) his 12th year.

Naama




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Feb 15 22:22:51 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:22:51 -0800
Subject: OT: Chuck Jones
In-Reply-To: <96gjke+nq7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010215141729.02859df0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12351

At 12:55 PM 2/15/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>I didn't remember their names.  I saw RTT when I was about 5, and
>those cobras induced a fear of flushing toilets in me for years (don't
>ask).  Maybe I'll see it again, now that my phobia has faded and CM
>has informed us that the animator was the sublime Chuck Jones.

I highly recommend Chuck Jones' _Riki-Tiki-Tavi_, as well as his
version of _Mowgli's Brothers_ -- It kicks the Disney version's
donkey.



                                                 -- Dave




From JMLeake at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 22:24:39 2001
From: JMLeake at aol.com (JMLeake at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:24:39 -0000
Subject: A thought about divination
In-Reply-To: <96hjar+2hio@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96hkv7+g2ug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12352

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> Reading the astrology posts, it occured to me that JKR probably 
> doesn't believe at all in astrology (just an impression based on 
> her interviews). And then I realized that of all the subjects 
taught 
> in Hogwarts only Divination impresses us as dubious and even 
> ridiculous. Add to this the fact that only divination has real-life 
> parallels, since astrology, numerology, tea-leaf reading, etc. is 
> very very popular now (the other subjects - transfiguration, 
charms, 
> potions, DADA - have much fewer connections with modern reality). 
> I'm pretty sure that the way divination is described expresses 
JKR's 
> attitude to real-life arts of divination. The question is - did she 
> do this on purpose, to teach children scepticism towards the kinds 
of 
> occultism they might encounter in their everyday life (astrology, 
> numerology, Tarot, etc.)? 
> 
> Naama

That's a good point.....could it be in response to all those 
complaints people made about how "those books teach children to 
worship Satan and practice witchcraft" that she made divination (the 
only one that really has any groundings in real beliefs today)out to 
be pretty much a big hoax in her books?
As long as I'm on the topic of that whole "Satanic influence" thing, 
I want to say that I notice that most people who do the complaining 
seem to be Christians. Well, I'm a Christian, and I love the Harry 
Potter books! Not only that, but lots of my fellow Christian 
believers also love 'em. Not all Christians are sour-faced old 
fogies! :)

Joey 




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 23:23:41 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:23:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Appearance of the Number 3
References: <F98FopYC98Bi89QtpfT0000357e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <039601c097a6$57b4b5c0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12353

Well, Stephanie, there are more 3's in the world than the Trio of witches.

:)

Let's see.  We have three in the Holy Trinity?
(It's considered the Christian's God's number, a holy number, as is 7, if I
recall correctly.  I know man's number is 6.)

In my religion, there is another 3--the maiden, the mother, and the crone.
(More evidence that 3 is a god/goddess number?)

We also have the law of return which works with 3x3 as the amount you will
receive back.

For a last comment, there's always Ron, Harry, and Hermione--3!

:D

Now, could someone take this and run with it?  I'm out of ideas, but I know
there are more, my brain is just dead from computer-work today...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Appearance of the Number 12


>
> OH NO....ha ha ha.  My english teacher goes on and on and on about the
> signifigance of the number 3, and we are about to start Macbeth <vbg>
> Anyways, she looks as it is an evil thing, though she claims "anything
> signifigant comes in 3s or is a multiple of 3"  Anyways...i never noticed
> all of the 12s before, and I htinkit is funny, or maybe it is JKR's fav
> number.  Kind of like when you make a word search(for whatever reason)
your
> fav letters, or rather more common letters, appear more than less common
> ones.  Just a thought...
>
> Stephanie
> who shudders at the mention of the infamous 3
_________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Thu Feb 15 22:30:04 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 15 Feb 2001 22:30:04 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <982276204.1271.40774.jb@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12354


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Miscellaneous Graphics/FONT/readme.txt 
  Uploaded by : klaatu at primenet.com 
  Description :  

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Miscellaneous+Graphics/FONT/readme.txt 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

klaatu at primenet.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms

 







From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 22:29:55 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:29:55 EST
Subject: Hermione's Natal Chart (Using 1980 as her Birth Year)
Message-ID: <c4.fe398fb.27bdb263@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12355

The following astrological chart was prepared by Awarenet, a website that has 
an easy to use form to calculate a variety of astrological charts (both for 
free and for a fee).  The opinions and observations presented in this chart 
are those of Awarenet, not of the person posting it.  ***This chart was not 
prepared by me and does not in any way reflect my opinions concerning any of 
the characters.***  My intention in posting the chart is that it be used for 
fun discussion purposes and not that it be taken seriously.  As we don't know 
the characters' birthtimes, portions of this chart may incorrect.  I used 
12:00 p.m. as the birthtime to calculate what Awarenet calls a "natural" 
chart.   The most likely portions to be affected by birthtime are the moon 
and ascendant.  I have used London as the birthplace for all characters born 
in England because it is contained in Awarenet's database and shares the same 
time zone with all other cities in England.  Awarenet's URL is: 
www.awarenet.com



Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~

Positions for Hermione Granger
Birth Chart Interpretation for Hermione GrangerBorn 9/19/1980 12:00
In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: -1)

? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 26 Virgo 39? ? 1N20
?? Moon? ? 19 Capricorn 3? ? 19S28
?? Mercury? ? 14 Libra 59? ? 6S19
?? Venus? ? 12 Leo 35? ? 16N10
?? Mars? ? 14 Scorpio 7? ? 16S38
?? Jupiter? ? 22 Virgo 5? ? 4N06
?? Saturn? ? 29 Virgo 46? ? 1N59
?? Uranus? ? 22 Scorpio 36? ? 18S11
?? Neptune? ? 20 Sagittarius 0? ? 21S43
?? Pluto? ? 20 Libra 37? ? 7N18
?? Node? ? 18 Leo 0? ? 15N26
?? Ascendant? ? 21 Scorpio 27? ? 18S08
?? Midheaven? ? 11 Virgo 56? ? 7N05

Tropical ZodiacSun in Virgo:
? ? At heart you are modest and humble, and you rarely strive to be in the 
limelight or in a position of power. You have a sharp analytical mind, a keen 
eye for detail, and you prefer to observe, dissect, and study life from a 
distance. Conscientious and conservative, you can be relied upon to be 
careful, efficient, and thorough in your work and you take pride in doing a 
job well. What you may lack in self-confidence you often make up for in skill 
- developing expertise, technical knowledge, and competency in some 
specialized area. You are adept at using your hands to
create or fix things, and meticulous attention to detail and careful 
craftsmanship are your forte. Some would say you are a little TOO meticulous, 
for you can be extremely critical and petty if everything is not done exactly 
as you think it should be, and you worry about things that other people 
consider trivial and unimportant. You like to organize, categorize, and 
arrange everything into a logical system, and you are often distinctly 
uncomfortable when something does not fit into a neat category. 
Disorganization vexes you. You probably wish that you were not such a 
perfectionist, for besides being a stickler for details, you can be 
mercilessly self-critical as well. Whether in your environment or in 
yourself, you tend to focus on the flaws, with a desire to improve, refine, 
and perfect. You are strictly factual, truthful, and scrupulously honest in 
your self- estimation, and you often do not give yourself enough praise or 
credit. 

? ? You are also highly discriminating and may be especially particular about 
your diet, hygiene, and health habits. You have high aesthetic standards and 
refined sensitivities, and will be bothered by elements in your surroundings 
(such as
disorder, cigarette smoke, etc.) that others overlook. Your tastes are 
simple, understated, but refined. Coarseness, bluntness, and vulgarity really 
offend you. You can be difficult to live with sometimes because of your 
fastidiousness, your sensitivity, and your idiosyncrasies about food and 
cleanliness. 

? ? Though you seem rather cool and self-contained, you have a very helpful 
nature and you enjoy serving others. You are content to be in a supportive, 
assisting role rather than in the lead. You are quietly devoted to the ones 
you care for.

? ? You are careful and cautious in your approach to life, realistic, 
practical, and disinclined to gamble. You analyze before you act. You are too 
serious sometimes. Allowing yourself to play and to make mistakes would be 
HEALTHY for you! 

Moon in Capricorn:
? ? Serious and responsible, you try to carry the world on your shoulders and 
rarely let others know that you need help and support. You deny or ignore 
your own emotional needs and feel that others will not accept you if you 
appear "weak". You are especially uncomfortable with emotional dependency, 
and will tell yourself and others (even children) not to be a "baby". You 
need to accept that no one is self-sufficient
all the time, and to be gentler with your "childish" emotional needs and 
wants. To others, you may appear to be rather hard-nosed and tough, with a 
businesslike attitude toward their personal concerns and feelings. Actually, 
no one is a truer friend. Your feelings and loyalties run deep, but you often 
do not let people know how much you care. You also need to learn to relax, 
enjoy yourself, and play sometimes. 

Ascendant in Scorpio:
? ? You are very strong-willed and proud, but intensely private and not easy 
to know well. Behind your quiet exterior lies a great deal of emotional 
depth, sensitivity,
complexity, and also fierce determination. When you want something you go 
after it rather quietly but insistently and wholeheartedly - and you usually 
get it. 

? ? You are not a person who lives lightly or superficially. You want to live 
passionately and intensely and are not averse to challenge, danger, or to 
facing the darker side of life - human pain and struggle. You function well 
in crisis situations and often seek them out, for you enjoy the feeling of 
living at full capacity. 

? ? You are very intuitive about other people and especially about their 
unspoken feelings and hidden motives. You usually have strong, immediate gut 
reactions, either
positive or negative, which prove to be correct. You approach life very 
instinctively and are not always fully conscious of why you feel or act as 
you do. You also have a
very strong affinity with animals - an acute sensitivity and a nonverbal kind 
of rapport with them. 

? ? In relation to others, you are rather cautious, sometimes even 
suspicious, until you get to know and trust them - and trust doesn't come 
easily to you. When you commit
yourself emotionally to someone, be it friend or lover, you are intensely 
loyal and devoted to them and you also expect the same kind of unwavering, 
undying loyalty in return. If you are ever betrayed by someone you care 
deeply for, you are capable of hating and retaliating with as much fervor as 
you once loved. Nothing is done halfway. In fact, you are intensely involved 
and often jealously attached to whatever you care about, be it person, idea, 
or cause. There is definitely a streak of emotional fanaticism in you. 

? ? Because of your natural reserve, others may see you as something of an 
enigma. You are quite self-protective and often defensive. You are also very 
magnetic, especially to members of the opposite sex. 

Sun Semisquare Venus:
? ? You are loving and well-loved by others, and have a strong need for 
kindness, friendship, and affection. Your artistic and creative powers are 
also well developed and you do everything in a harmonious, gracious, pleasing 
manner. Aesthetics are very important to you. Your personal appearance and 
attractiveness are also very important to you.? 

Sun Semisquare Mars:
? ? You are direct, energetic, sometimes aggressive and combative. You often 
feel that you need to fight to get what you want and you tend to have a 
"me-first" attitude that angers or irritates others. You are hasty, restless, 
impatient, and sometimes reckless. 

Sun Conjunct Jupiter:
? ? You are blessed with abundant optimism, self-confidence, and cheerful 
generosity. Your good will and friendliness win you many allies. You also 
have grand visions and
aspirations, and the desire to succeed in life in a big way. You expect the 
best, and usually get it.? 

Sun Conjunct Saturn:
? ? You have a mature and often somber demeanor. You are serious, reserved, 
self-disciplined, highly responsible and conscientious. You advance in life 
rather slowly, through your own efforts and persistence. You are also rather 
stern and judgemental, especially with yourself. Cautious and careful, it is 
difficult for you to really let go, to be spontaneous and playful. You like 
to be in control of yourself. 

Moon Square Mercury:
? ? You are not interested in subjects that are wholly abstract or technical. 
There must be a personal, human element to evoke your interest. Your interest 
is people and their inner motivations, feelings, personal lives, and 
experiences. You are a natural listener with a talent for getting others to 
talk about their lives, dreams, desires - the things that are personally 
meaningful to them. You could also be an excellent writer, reporter, or 
biographer.  

? ? You have a particular interest in the past. You are concerned either with 
personal history (childhood and early family experiences, genealogy, etc.) or 
with the roots and origins of societies (archeology, mythology, history, 
etc.).

? ? You are nostalgic and love to hear others' life stories and to discuss 
your own experiences and feelings. You like to read biographies and memoirs, 
and probably keep a diary or journal yourself. You also have the ability to 
be a successful public speaker. 

Moon Trine Jupiter:
? ? You are easygoing, agreeable, and tolerant, willing to overlook others' 
mistakes, forget the past, and begin again on a positive note. You enjoy 
making others comfortable and happy, and sometimes overdo your generosity. 
You often feel that "everything will turn out all right no matter what I do", 
and so become lazy and lackadaisical. 

Moon Sextile Uranus:
? ?? Your emotional attitudes and instincts tend to be quite liberal. You so 
not want to be caged or dictated to, and you feel everyone is entitled to do 
as they please in their
personal and emotional affairs. You tend to surround yourself with people who 
are unusual, creative, open-minded, unpredictable, restless, and changeable, 
and your
relationships, with women in particular, may be somewhat unstable as a 
result. However, you enjoy an element of surprise and unpredictability.? 

Moon Semisextile Neptune:
? ?? Highly sensitive and rather easily taken in, you need to beware of 
deceiving yourself and allowing others to take advantage of your 
impressionability or gentleness. Daydreaming, fantasizing, or other forms of 
imaginative, escapist behavior (such as watching television excessively or 
living your life through romance novels) could be something of an addiction 
for you. You tend to confuse images with reality and need to learn to be more 
circumspect and discriminating. Disappointments through women and in close 
relationships may occur if you do not.? 

Moon Square Pluto:
? ? You have intense desires and feelings and your personal relationships are 
deeply emotional, passionate, and often stormy and painful as well. There are 
powerful magnetic ties between yourself and those you care about, and you 
could become emotionally obsessed by another person. Your feelings can become 
so urgent and compelling that you do things that are not rational. You 
undergo periodic emotional upheavals and purging, when you must break all 
ties, release the past and begin anew. 

Moon Sextile Ascendant:
? ?? Your emotional instincts, feelings, and intuition play a big part in the 
decisions you make and how you interact with the world, and generally your 
feelings are quite
accurate and helpful to you. Also, establishing emotional rapport with the 
people you meet on a day to day level is rather easy for you. You appear 
somewhat sympathetic and concerned, so that others are drawn to you, 
especially when they need guidance or help.? 

Mars Conjunct Ascendant:
? ? You are forceful and energetic and go for what you want quite 
aggressively. You are a doer and an achiever and you have a positive "I can" 
attitude. You may run over people and stir up opposition and conflict because 
you tend to be very self- centered, or simply oblivious to the needs and 
intentions of others. 

Jupiter Sextile Ascendant:
? ?? You project a feeling of broad-mindedness, generosity, and beneficence, 
a sense that you're someone others should listen to and treat with respect. 
Because you generally make such a favorable impression on people, many doors 
are open
to you, and it may seem that you are somehow luckier than other people. 
Mostly this is due to the confidence you emanate.? 

Uranus Conjunct Ascendant:
? ? You identify with the progressive, innovative elements in society, and 
with being a rebel, reformer, nonconformist, or iconoclast. You enjoy being 
original, unpredictable, and spontaneous, and insist on doing whatever you 
wish regardless of tradition, convention, or other people's wishes. Others 
see you as "different" but interesting and
exciting. 

Neptune Semisextile Ascendant:
? ?? There is a receptive, elusive quality to your personality. You can be 
difficult to pin down, difficult to know, something of a mystery. At times 
you may feel frustrated because you feel that you aren't being perceived very 
clearly, that you don't make a powerful impression, that you're easily 
overlooked or discounted. If you don't wish to be "invisible", you must make 
some effort to define and clarify -- both for yourself and for the rest of 
the world -- who you are. On the other hand, you may purposely
create illusions about yourself with the intent to deceive -- or entertain -- 
others. 

Pluto Semisextile Ascendant:
? ?? There is a certain depth and intensity about you that may be threatening 
to others. No matter how gentle or unassuming you may be on the surface, you 
are also a force to be reckoned with. You have causes, passions, or desires 
that drive you and when one of these is aroused you are quite zealous in your 
pursuit or defense of it.? 

?? Copyright (c) 2000 Astrology 3D, Inc.
This report was written to professional astrological standards, and is meant 
for Awareness Entertainment.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Feb 15 22:30:31 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:30:31 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP font
In-Reply-To: <00b601c09797$5c5e1760$4b3b9eac@shelley>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKELPDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12356

I've put a copy of the font and readme file in the FILES section:
Miscellaneous Graphics/FONT folder.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Miscellaneous%20Graphics/F
ONT/

SML

-----Original Message-----
From: Rina Stewart [mailto:rina at love-productions.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 2:36 PM
To: HP4GU
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP font


Does anyone know where I can find the HP font? Either the one with the
lightening bolt P, or the one used in the American books for the spine and
chapter headings, but preferably the latter. Thanks!

Rina




From mbrose at akula.com  Thu Feb 15 22:33:19 2001
From: mbrose at akula.com (Michelle Brose)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:33:19 -0500
Subject: HP font
In-Reply-To: <982275303.2799.16392.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010215173319.014aaba0@akula.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12357

Hi Rina,

	I don't know about the font with the lightning bolt P, but you can find
the font used for chapter headings, Lumos, at:

http://www.geocities.com/carpesaponem/

Hope that helps,
Michelle



From meg at fenya.net  Thu Feb 15 22:38:27 2001
From: meg at fenya.net (Meghan)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:38:27 -0800
Subject: For Many Are Called...
Message-ID: <3A8C5A63.76C68298@fenya.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12358

Talking to a friend right now [and Ebony, Kate says that you should get
on AIM sometime, darn it *stares*] about potential crossovers in HP --
and it dawned on me, what happens if someone is selected to go to
Hogwarts but can't go?

Would there be remedial classes for adults that weren't allowed to study
as children?  Or are they just out of luck?

meg
oh, and Ebony again -- XD We've decided the reason why you never hear
anything about Shirley in the later Anne books is because he's at
Hogwarts. XD  Or the Canadian branch thereof. XD  Kate's voting Emily
teaches there, but I dunno yet.

-- 
Meg -- meg at fenya.net -- http://www.fenya.net
AIM: LazuliSong ICQ: lazulisong 
D N Angel, Card Captor Sakura, General Evil Things

Anne: *chases Gilbert around trying to brain him with an anvil* Gilbert:
WAI! U-RE-SHI-III NA~ <3 *skips out of reach* Anne: ANNNTAAAA NE! *tries
with a mallet* Eriol: *solemnly* When L M Montgomery characters go chibi
and Wrong.  Next in Meg's head.  Meg: =_<;;;;



From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Feb 15 22:34:48 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:34:48 -0700
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEMBDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12359



Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups
group.

  File        : /Miscellaneous Graphics/FONT/lumos.ttf
  Uploaded by : klaatu at primenet.com
  Description :  Harry Potter font

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Miscellaneous+Graphics/FON
T/

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

klaatu at primenet.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms





From rina at love-productions.com  Thu Feb 15 22:38:45 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:38:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP font
Message-ID: <00cf01c097a0$155f42e0$4b3b9eac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12360

Thank you both, SML and Michelle! I really appreciate it. : )

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From chessdiva at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 22:55:51 2001
From: chessdiva at hotmail.com (Lisa Gansky)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:55:51 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call
Message-ID: <F56CbxyUjn5qKRNKuw50000e7fc@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12361




>From: pbnesbit at msn.com

>I can't recall ever seeing Gwyneth Paltrow in *anything*.  I did
>think of one American actress who could pull off pretty much any
>accent & that's Meryl Streep.  My movie-going is limited pretty much
>to historical shows (Rob Roy, Braveheart, etc.) so I'm probably not
>the best person to judge these things.
>
>Peace & Plenty,
>
>Parker

Sliding Doors...with John Hannah, etc. And Shakespeare in Love. :) Both of 
which she did odd (a tad too ecclectic) English accents.

~Lisa


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From chessdiva at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 22:58:20 2001
From: chessdiva at hotmail.com (Lisa Gansky)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:58:20 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: accents (was Casting call)
Message-ID: <F238aQUXPXF2aZcdjaS0000d8fe@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12362

>   I personally would have voted for Emma Thompson to be McGonagall...with 
>a little aging makeup.

oooh! That would be great!
~Lisa

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 23:11:40 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:11:40 EST
Subject: Hermione's Natal Chart (Using 1979 as her Birth Year) Still Long
Message-ID: <56.74fa087.27bdbc2c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12363

The following astrological chart was prepared by Awarenet, a website that has 
an easy to use form to calculate a variety of astrological charts (both for 
free and for a fee).  The opinions and observations presented in this chart 
are those of Awarenet, not of the person posting it.  ***This chart was not 
prepared by me and does not in any way reflect my opinions concerning any of 
the characters.***  My intention in posting the chart is that it be used for 
fun discussion purposes and not that it be taken seriously.  As we don't know 
the characters' birthtimes, portions of this chart may incorrect.  I used 
12:00 p.m. as the birthtime to calculate what Awarenet calls a "natural" 
chart.   The most likely portions to be affected by birthtime are the moon 
and ascendant.  I have used London as the birthplace for all characters born 
in England because it is contained in Awarenet's database and shares the same 
time zone with all other cities in England.  Awarenet's URL is: 
www.awarenet.com


Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~

Positions for Hermione Granger
Birth Chart Interpretation for Hermione GrangerBorn 9/19/1979 12:00
In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: -1)

? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 25 Virgo 55? ? 1N37
?? Moon? ? 4 Virgo 46? ? 9N27
?? Mercury? ? 1 Libra 12? ? 0N34
?? Venus? ? 2 Libra 41? ? 0N07
?? Mars? ? 26 Cancer 44? ? 21N41
?? Jupiter? ? 28 Leo 0? ? 12N53
?? Saturn? ? 18 Virgo 22? ? 6N17
?? Uranus? ? 18 Scorpio 11? ? 16S58
?? Neptune? ? 17 Sagittarius 51? ? 21S30
?? Pluto? ? 18 Libra 9? ? 8N12
?? Node? ? 7 Virgo 23? ? 8N48
?? Ascendant? ? 20 Scorpio 56? ? 17S59
?? Midheaven? ? 11 Virgo 8? ? 7N23
Tropical ZodiacSun in Virgo:
? ? At heart you are modest and humble, and you rarely strive to be in the 
limelight or in a position of power. You have a sharp analytical mind, a keen 
eye for detail, and you prefer to observe, dissect, and study life from a 
distance. Conscientious and conservative, you can be relied upon to be 
careful, efficient, and thorough in your work and you take pride in doing a 
job well. What you may lack in self-confidence you often make up for in skill 
- developing expertise, technical knowledge, and competency in some 
specialized area. You are adept at using your hands to
create or fix things, and meticulous attention to detail and careful 
craftsmanship are your forte. Some would say you area little TOO meticulous, 
for you can be extremely critical and petty if everything is not done exactly 
as you think it should be, and you worry about things that other people 
consider trivial and unimportant. You like to organize, categorize, and 
arrange everything into a logical system, and you are often distinctly 
uncomfortable when something does not fit into a neat category. 
Disorganization vexes you. You probably wish that you were not such a 
perfectionist, for besides being a stickler for details, you can be 
mercilessly self-critical as well. Whether in your environment or in 
yourself, you tend to focus on the flaws,
with a desire to improve, refine, and perfect. You are strictly factual, 
truthful, and scrupulously honest in your self- estimation, and you often do 
not give yourself enough praise or credit.
 
? ? You are also highly discriminating and may be especially particular about 
your diet, hygiene, and health habits. You have high aesthetic standards and 
refined sensitivities, and will be bothered by elements in your surroundings 
(such as
disorder, cigarette smoke, etc.) that others overlook. Your tastes are 
simple, understated, but refined. Coarseness, bluntness, and vulgarity really 
offend you. You can be difficult to live with sometimes because of your 
fastidiousness, your sensitivity, and your idiosyncrasies about food and 
cleanliness. 

? ? Though you seem rather cool and self-contained, you have a very helpful 
nature and you enjoy serving others. You are content to be in a supportive, 
assisting role rather than in the lead. You are quietly devoted to the ones 
you care for.

? ? You are careful and cautious in your approach to life, realistic, 
practical, and disinclined to gamble. You analyze before you act. You are too 
serious sometimes. Allowing yourself to play and to make mistakes would be 
HEALTHY for you! 

Moon in Virgo:
? ? You are very sensitive, cautious, and shy about showing others your 
feelings. Though you may love and care for someone a great deal, you rarely 
express those feelings openly and freely. Very often your love for someone 
will be expressed by trying to help them, doing something tangible to benefit 
them, or serving them in some way.  

? ? It is also difficult for you to receive warmth, affection, or 
appreciation, for you often feel that you don't really deserve it or that 
"they don't really mean it". You can therefore seem rather cool and aloof, 
much more so than you feel. 

? ? A deeply ingrained critical attitude often makes you difficult to live 
with. You need to learn to be gentler and less of a perfectionist with others 
and with yourself.? 

Ascendant in Scorpio:
? ? You are very strong-willed and proud, but intensely private and not easy 
to know well. Behind your quiet exterior lies a great deal of emotional 
depth, sensitivity,
complexity, and also fierce determination. When you want something you go 
after it rather quietly but insistently and wholeheartedly - and you usually 
get it. 

? ? You are not a person who lives lightly or superficially. You want to live 
passionately and intensely and are not averse to challenge, danger, or to 
facing the darker side of life - human pain and struggle. You function well 
in crisis situations and often seek them out, for you enjoy the feeling of 
living at full capacity. 

? ? You are very intuitive about other people and especially about their 
unspoken feelings and hidden motives. You usually have strong, immediate gut 
reactions, either
positive or negative, which prove to be correct. You approach life very 
instinctively and are not always fully conscious of why you feel or act as 
you do. You also have a
very strong affinity with animals - an acute sensitivity and a nonverbal kind 
of rapport with them. 

? ? In relation to others, you are rather cautious, sometimes even 
suspicious, until you get to know and trust them - and trust doesn't come 
easily to you. When you commit
yourself emotionally to someone, be it friend or lover, you are intensely 
loyal and devoted to them and you also expect the same kind of unwavering, 
undying loyalty in return. If you are ever betrayed by someone you care 
deeply for, you are capable of hating and retaliating with as much fervor as 
you once loved. Nothing is done halfway. In fact, you are intensely involved 
and often jealously attached to whatever you care about, be it person, idea, 
or cause. There is definitely a streak of emotional fanaticism in you. 

? ? Because of your natural reserve, others may see you as something of an 
enigma. You are quite self-protective and often defensive. You are also very 
magnetic, specially to members of the opposite sex. 

Sun Conjunct Mercury:
? ? You tend to see things from your perspective only and to be rather 
subjective. You also enjoy talking and expressing your views but you don't 
always listen as well. You have a clear mind, a love of learning and new 
experiences, and need constant mental stimulation and activity.? 

Sun Conjunct Venus:
? ? You are loving and well-loved by others, and have a strong need for 
kindness, friendship, and affection. Your artistic and creative powers are 
also well developed and you do everything in a harmonious, gracious, pleasing 
manner. Aesthetics are very important to you. Your personal appearance and 
attractiveness are also very important to you.? 

Sun Sextile Mars:
? ?? You can be an inspiring leader of a team or group effort. Your dynamism 
and energy evokes the same in others, and you see healthy competition between 
people as a plus. Generally, you enjoy fine health as well.? 

Sun Conjunct Saturn:
? ? You have a mature and often somber demeanor. You are serious, reserved, 
self-disciplined, highly responsible and conscientious. You advance in life 
rather slowly, through your own efforts and persistence. You are also rather 
stern and judgemental, especially with yourself. Cautious and careful, it is 
difficult for you to really let go, to be spontaneous and playful. You like 
to be in control of yourself. 

Moon Conjunct Jupiter:
? ? You are tolerant and forgiving, always ready to overlook mistakes and 
give others a second chance. You expect the best from people and draw it out 
of them, and you enjoy making others comfortable and happy. Because of your 
emotional generosity, your life is rich with friends, and often financial 
blessings as well. 

Moon Semisquare Pluto:
? ? You have intense desires and feelings and your personal relationships are 
deeply emotional, passionate, and often stormy and painful as well. There are 
powerful magnetic ties between yourself and those you care about, and you 
could become emotionally obsessed by another person. Your feelings can become 
so urgent and compelling that you do things that are not rational. You 
undergo periodic emotional upheavals and purging, when you must break all 
ties, release the past and begin anew. 

Moon Conjunct Node:
? ? Care for and nourish children, plants, pets, or other people, make a 
home, create and sustain strong ties with your family or a community which 
can support and give you a sense of safety and belonging. 

? ? Develop your listening skills. Deepen your understanding and appreciation 
of women and of a woman's perspective. Learn to trust your own feelings, 
intuitions, and emotional needs. Care for yourself in an accepting, 
nonjudgmental way.

? ? Take all of what is good and helpful from your past and use it in a new 
way. (If you are so inclined, you may want to explore the potentials of 
past-life regression to tap
into gifts you have already developed). 

Moon Conjunct Midheaven:
? ?? You are apt to receive much publicity and popularity through your 
professional pursuits, for you have a way of winning the hearts and trust of 
many people. You have an instinct for what the masses of people will respond 
to emotionally, and this feeling-sense of what other people want enables you 
to succeed in sales, promotion, and so on. Your career could also involve 
protecting and caring for people, nurturing, "mothering" others in some 
capacity. 

Mars Trine Ascendant:
? ?? You are direct, honest, and to the point -- some might say excessively 
so. However, no one has to guess who you are or what you want -- you're 
pretty much up front. You radiate a refreshing enthusiasm and vigor when 
you're at your best. You seem to enjoy competition without taking it terribly 
seriously. 

Saturn Sextile Ascendant:
? ?? You appear responsible, conscientious, and solid -- qualities which 
encourage others to take you seriously. You are unlikely to present yourself 
as more than you are, and this humility is often endearing, or at least 
appealing, to others. Even as a youth, you seemed mature for your age.? 

Uranus Conjunct Ascendant:
? ? You identify with the progressive, innovative elements in society, and 
with being a rebel, reformer, nonconformist, or iconoclast. You enjoy being 
original, unpredictable, and spontaneous, and insist on doing whatever you 
wish regardless of tradition, convention, or other people's wishes. Others 
see you as "different" but interesting and
exciting. 

?? Copyright (c) 2000 Astrology 3D, Inc.
This report was written to professional astrological standards, and is meant 
for Awareness Entertainment.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From natabat at crosswinds.net  Thu Feb 15 23:24:08 2001
From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:24:08 -0800
Subject: Dumbledore an Animagus?
Message-ID: <00b001c097a6$955f7400$5eebce3f@desktop>

No: HPFGUIDX 12364

Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration. It would be extremely useful for a
Transfiguration prof. to be an Animagus, not to mention logical. And, hey,
his name does mean bumblebee--maybe that's how he always knows what's going
on! <g>

BTW, in case you hadn't figured it out, newbie here! You probably won't hear
from me much--I tend to stay pretty quiet. Fascinating convos though!


Natalie
natabat at flashmail.com / natabat at crosswinds.net
http://www.natabat.com
-----
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
there."
- Will Rogers





From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 23:25:56 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:25:56 EST
Subject: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1980 as Hermione's Birth Year) Long
Message-ID: <3c.784ef27.27bdbf84@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12365

The following astrological chart was prepared by Awarenet, a website that has 
an easy to use form to calculate a variety of astrological charts (both for 
free and for a fee).  The opinions and observations presented in this chart 
are those of Awarenet, not of the person posting it.  ***This chart was not 
prepared by me and does not in any way reflect my opinions concerning any of 
the characters.***  My intention in posting the chart is that it be used for 
fun discussion purposes and not that it be taken seriously.  As we don't know 
the characters' birthtimes, portions of this chart may incorrect.  I used 
12:00 p.m. as the birthtime to calculate what Awarenet calls a "natural" 
chart.   The most likely portions to be affected by birthtime are the moon 
and ascendant.  I have used London as the birthplace for all characters born 
in England because it is contained in Awarenet's database and shares the same 
time zone with all other cities in England.  Awarenet's URL is: 
www.awarenet.com

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~

Positions for Harry Potter and Hermione
Chart Comparison Interpretation for Harry Potter and Hermione
Harry Potter born 7/31/1980 12:00
In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: -1)

? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 8 Leo 22? ? 18N10
?? Moon? ? 27 Pisces 39? ? 3S53
?? Mercury? ? 19 Cancer 0? ? 20N07
?? Venus? ? 25 Gemini 32? ? 18N40
?? Mars? ? 12 Libra 0? ? 4S42
?? Jupiter? ? 11 Virgo 32? ? 8N12
?? Saturn? ? 24 Virgo 0? ? 4N19
?? Uranus? ? 21 Scorpio 30? ? 17S53
?? Neptune? ? 20 Sagittarius 10? ? 21S42
?? Pluto? ? 19 Libra 10? ? 8N07
?? Node? ? 20 Leo 39? ? 14N37
?? Ascendant? ? 16 Libra 57? ? 6S39
?? Midheaven? ? 22 Cancer 16? ? 21N36
Tropical ZodiacHermione Granger born 9/19/1980 12:00
In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: -1)

? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 26 Virgo 39? ? 1N20
?? Moon? ? 19 Capricorn 3? ? 19S28
?? Mercury? ? 14 Libra 59? ? 6S19
?? Venus? ? 12 Leo 35? ? 16N10
?? Mars? ? 14 Scorpio 7? ? 16S38
?? Jupiter? ? 22 Virgo 5? ? 4N06
?? Saturn? ? 29 Virgo 46? ? 1N59
?? Uranus? ? 22 Scorpio 36? ? 18S11
?? Neptune? ? 20 Sagittarius 0? ? 21S43
?? Pluto? ? 20 Libra 37? ? 7N18
?? Node? ? 18 Leo 0? ? 15N26
?? Ascendant? ? 21 Scorpio 27? ? 18S08
?? Midheaven? ? 11 Virgo 56? ? 7N05

Tropical ZodiacHarry Potter's Sun in Leo and Hermione Granger's Sun in 
Virgo:? ?? You two are very different! Hermione Granger is more modest, 
self-effacing, shy, and unobtrusive than Harry Potter, who craves social 
approval, recognition, love, and applause. Harry Potter tends to step into 
the limelight and outshine or overpower Hermione Granger. Hermione Granger is 
more emotionally self-sufficient than Harry Potter is, and may not give Harry 
Potter all of the "strokes" and appreciation Harry Potter wants. 

? ? Hermione Granger also has a tendency to become fussy and particular, and 
these fits of perfectionism can have disastrous consequences when the target 
of Hermione
Granger's critical eye is Harry Potter. Harry Potter is particularly 
sensitive to criticism and tends to interpret Hermione Granger's 
"constructive criticism" as a personal
attack. Hermione Granger is more analytical and psychologically astute than 
Harry Potter, who may not appreciate being "picked apart" or psychologically 
analyzed
by Hermione Granger! Another problem in this relationship is that Harry 
Potter may take for granted much of the work and assistance that Hermione 
Granger provides.? 

Hermione Granger's Moon in Capricorn and Harry Potter's Moon in Pisces:? ?? 
Your temperaments, moods, and emotional responses are very different. 

? ? Harry Potter is very, very sensitive and responds emotionally and 
sympathetically to people while Hermione Granger is emotionally detached and 
often distant or inaccessible. Harry Potter tends to be a bleeding heart, 
while Hermione Granger tends to be somewhat suspicious or hard toward people 
who are in unfortunate circumstances - Hermione Granger doesn't want to get 
involved unless they
are friends. Hermione Granger also ignores or downplays emotions in general, 
and has a rather serious, sober, no-nonsense attitude towards life. Harry 
Potter is a bit of
a dreamer or drifter and is far less practical, organized, efficient, and 
ambitious about material matters than Hermione Granger is. Harry Potter may 
sometimes long for
more empathy, affection, and softness from Hermione Granger.


Harry Potter's Sun in Hermione Granger's 9th house:? ?? 
Hermione Granger takes a great interest in Harry Potter's philosophical or 
religious outlook on life, and Harry Potter often assumes the role of teacher 
or mentor
towards Hermione Granger. 

Hermione Granger's Sun in Harry Potter's 12th house:? ?? 
Even if you have been together for many years, Hermione Granger will continue 
to be intriguing and somewhat mysterious to Harry Potter. You have a knack 
for uncovering
each other's hidden or repressed traits, and there is a deep, mysterious, 
perhaps even mystical quality to your relationship.? 

Harry Potter's Moon in Hermione Granger's 4th house:? ??
 It is highly probably that you will become involved in domestic affairs 
together, even if your relationship is not a close one. You enjoy living 
together and sharing in
cooking, home maintenance, and you feel like "family" with each other.? 

Hermione Granger's Moon in Harry Potter's 3rd house:? ?? 
There is a natural smoothness and ease with which Hermione Granger can 
express ideas and concern to Harry Potter, which fosters a warm friendship 
between you. 

Composite Chart Interpretation for Harry Potter/Hermione Gra? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 2 Virgo 30? ? 9N45
?? Moon? ? 23 Aquarius 21? ? 11S40
?? Mercury? ? 1 Virgo 59? ? 6N54
?? Venus? ? 19 Cancer 3? ? 17N25
?? Mars? ? 28 Libra 3? ? 10S40
?? Jupiter? ? 16 Virgo 48? ? 6N09
?? Saturn? ? 26 Virgo 53? ? 3N09
?? Uranus? ? 22 Scorpio 3? ? 18S02
?? Neptune? ? 20 Sagittarius 5? ? 21S42
?? Pluto? ? 19 Libra 53? ? 7N42
?? Node? ? 19 Leo 19? ? 15N01
?? Ascendant? ? 4 Scorpio 12? ? 12S23
?? Midheaven? ? 17 Leo 6? ? 14N20
Tropical ZodiacSun Conjunct Mercury:
? ?? Yours is an intellectual relationship, among other things. Exchanging 
thoughts, studying together, sharing information, talking and bantering, 
turning one another on
to new books or ideas, sparking one another's curiosity and interest in the 
world? all of these are important aspects of your relationship. A certain 
detachment and the ability to think about and talk about what is going on 
between you are also highlighted. Put simply, becoming more conscious or more 
informed and educated is a significant reason the two of you are drawn 
together. 

Sun Semisquare Venus:
? ?? Quite simply, one of your purposes in being together is to create and 
express beauty, whether this is in the form of a beautiful, loving 
relationship, or gracious and artful works. There can also be an element of 
vanity, artifice, or showoffiness? the desire to be seen and recognized as a 
Beautiful Couple, whether or not that's entirely true. Hiding or downplaying 
your difficulties and the "uglies" in your relationship may be helpful to a 
point, but if you try to maintain this image of yourselves as a happy, loving 
twosome despite your actual conflicts, then deeper troubles may never get 
attended to. However, whatever friction, dissonance, or ill will develops 
between you, there will also always be an urge to harmonize, reconcile, and 
ease
your differences, and to create cooperation. It will take a lot for the two 
of you to ever turn against each other entirely. 

Moon Square Uranus:
? ?? The two of you are destined to have a rather unsettling affect upon one 
another. Your relationship may begin quite suddenly and unexpectedly, 
disrupting your normal routines and perhaps other relationships you are 
engaged in. There is an electric excitement between you which can be very 
thrilling, but also unnerving. Emotional impulsiveness and "acting crazy" 
together, doing things that are totally out of character or far more radical 
and daring that either of you would be inclined to do alone, are to be 
expected. 
? ? For a long time you may have an unstable, onagain/offagain connection 
with one another, and unless there are other stabilizing factors between you, 
that's all it may ever be.? 

Moon Trine Pluto:
? ?? Yours is destined to be a profound emotional union. There is a 
compelling, irresistable, intense desire to know one another deeply, and to 
be together. 

? ? If you are seeking a light, casual relationship just for fun and good 
times, you may want to run away from this one  if you can! Inevitably, you 
will have powerful feelings of attachment, even jealous possessiveness, 
toward one another. This needn't be troubling though. Mostly it's just a 
testament to your strong bond. 

? ? If either or both of you tends to be too rational and intellectual, your 
relationship with one another will remedy that! You'll share deeper feelings 
and become much more open to your own inner emotional life through being 
together. In fact, you may well have come together after one or both of you 
suffered a significant loss or trauma, and were thus much more aware of your 
heart and feelings and those deeper concerns that crisis forces upon us. One 
of the purposes of your relationship is to experience the depths of which you 
are capable, with another person.? 

?? Copyright (c) 2000 Astrology 3D, Inc.
This report was written to professional astrological standards, and is meant 
for Awareness Entertainment.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 23:37:22 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:37:22 EST
Subject: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's Birth Year) Long
Message-ID: <b4.11651c94.27bdc232@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12366

The following astrological chart was prepared by Awarenet, a website that has 
an easy to use form to calculate a variety of astrological charts (both for 
free and for a fee).  The opinions and observations presented in this chart 
are those of Awarenet, not of the person posting it.  ***This chart was not 
prepared by me and does not in any way reflect my opinions concerning any of 
the characters.***  My intention in posting the chart is that it be used for 
fun discussion purposes and not that it be taken seriously.  As we don't know 
the characters' birthtimes, portions of this chart may incorrect.  I used 
12:00 p.m. as the birthtime to calculate what Awarenet calls a "natural" 
chart.   The most likely portions to be affected by birthtime are the moon 
and ascendant.  I have used London as the birthplace for all characters born 
in England because it is contained in Awarenet's database and shares the same 
time zone with all other cities in England.  Awarenet's URL is: 
www.awarenet.com

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


Positions for Harry Potter and Hermione
Chart Comparison Interpretation for Harry Potter and HermioneHarry Potter 
born 7/31/1980 12:00
In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: -1)

? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 8 Leo 22? ? 18N10
?? Moon? ? 27 Pisces 39? ? 3S53
?? Mercury? ? 19 Cancer 0? ? 20N07
?? Venus? ? 25 Gemini 32? ? 18N40
?? Mars? ? 12 Libra 0? ? 4S42
?? Jupiter? ? 11 Virgo 32? ? 8N12
?? Saturn? ? 24 Virgo 0? ? 4N19
?? Uranus? ? 21 Scorpio 30? ? 17S53
?? Neptune? ? 20 Sagittarius 10? ? 21S42
?? Pluto? ? 19 Libra 10? ? 8N07
?? Node? ? 20 Leo 39? ? 14N37
?? Ascendant? ? 16 Libra 57? ? 6S39
?? Midheaven? ? 22 Cancer 16? ? 21N36
Tropical ZodiacHermione Granger born 1/01/1979 12:00
In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: 0)

? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 10 Capricorn 28? ? 23S02
?? Moon? ? 18 Aquarius 13? ? 12S50
?? Mercury? ? 19 Sagittarius 47? ? 22S01
?? Venus? ? 24 Scorpio 50? ? 15S21
?? Mars? ? 15 Capricorn 6? ? 23S31
?? Jupiter? ? 6 Leo 56? ? 19N07
?? Saturn? ? 13 Virgo 53? ? 8N03
?? Uranus? ? 19 Scorpio 43? ? 17S21
?? Neptune? ? 18 Sagittarius 52? ? 21S36
?? Pluto? ? 19 Libra 3? ? 8N15
?? Node? ? 21 Virgo 12? ? 3N29
?? Ascendant? ? 24 Aries 7? ? 9N21
?? Midheaven? ? 9 Capricorn 32? ? 23S06

Tropical ZodiacHarry Potter's Sun in Leo and Hermione Granger's Sun in 
Capricorn:? ?? Hermione Granger's more emotionally detached, reserved, 
down-to-earth and somewhat cynical or skeptical attitude contrasts with Harry 
Potter's warm enthusiasm and basically cheerful temperament. In your personal 
style and tastes,
also, this difference is very apparent: Hermione Granger prefers the 
classics, simple elegance, and either a very conservative, traditional style 
or an austere less-is-more,
keep-it-simple style. Harry Potter has a generous, lavish hand and loves rich 
color, warmth, and brilliance that borders on gaudiness. Sometimes, this 
translates into
emotional terms also. Hermione Granger is more careful, cooler, less inclined 
to gamble, wants a sure thing. Harry Potter is more open and expressive and 
warm, and needs an abundance of appreciation and affection - more than 
Hermione Granger is inclined to give sometimes. One thing you do have in 
common: you both take your commitments to heart, and you prize fidelity and 
loyalty. 

Hermione Granger's Moon in Aquarius and Harry Potter's Moon in Pisces:? ?? 
Your emotional rhythms and temperaments are rather different. Harry Potter is 
gentle, non-competitive, somewhat passive, and has a need to withdraw or "get 
away from it
all" on a regular basis. Hermione Granger, on the other hand, needs 
involvement in the world and enjoys being in the flow of contemporary life. 

? ? More significantly, Harry Potter is very sensitive emotionally and 
psychically, and is a deeply feeling person, while Hermione Granger responds 
more rationally and
intellectually to people and situations. Hermione Granger has strong 
humanitarian or idealistic impulses, but frequently lacks empathy in personal 
situations, whereas 
Harry Potter is so tender-hearted that others sometimes take advantage. 

? ? Hermione Granger is too cool, emotionally detached, and mental to suit 
Harry Potter sometimes. Hermione Granger needs intellectual stimulation and 
companionship, and is rather uncomfortable with excessive displays of feeling 
and
Harry Potter's emotionality in general. Also, Harry Potter is highly 
intuitive, whereas Hermione Granger needs scientific evidence or support of 
the things that Harry Potter takes on faith. Hermione Granger questions Harry 
Potter's hunches and emotional or psychic impressions. However, Hermione 
Granger can also help Harry Potter get
some distance and clarity about the emotional situations that Harry Potter 
gets so immersed in.? 

Harry Potter's Sun in Hermione Granger's 5th house:? ?? 
Harry Potter encourages Hermione Granger's creative talents, and both of you 
are inspired to undertake joint creative projects. If you share a similar 
artistic or creative interest, then you certainly will work together and 
inspire each other tremendously along creative lines. You really enjoy each 
other's company and love to play games
together. 

Hermione Granger's Sun in Harry Potter's 3rd house:? ?? 
Hermione Granger openly shares thoughts and ideas with Harry Potter, and the 
two of you love to share ideas, perhaps even gossip together. 

Harry Potter's Moon in Hermione Granger's 12th house:? ?? 
Hermione Granger likes to confide in Harry Potter, telling Harry Potter many 
events and circumstances from childhood that no one else has been told.? 

Hermione Granger's Moon in Harry Potter's 4th house:? ??
 It is highly probably that you will become involved in domestic affairs 
together, even if your relationship is not a close one. You enjoy living 
together and sharing in cooking, home maintenance, and you feel like "family" 
with each other.? 

Composite Chart Interpretation for Harry Potter/Hermione Gra? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 24 Libra 24? ? 2S26
?? Moon? ? 7 Pisces 37? ? 8S25
?? Mercury? ? 4 Libra 21? ? 0S57
?? Venus? ? 10 Virgo 10? ? 1N40
?? Mars? ? 28 Scorpio 32? ? 14S06
?? Jupiter? ? 24 Leo 14? ? 13N39
?? Saturn? ? 18 Virgo 56? ? 6N11
?? Uranus? ? 20 Scorpio 36? ? 17S37
?? Neptune? ? 19 Sagittarius 31? ? 21S39
?? Pluto? ? 19 Libra 6? ? 8N11
?? Node? ? 5 Virgo 55? ? 9N03
?? Ascendant? ? 2 Capricorn 55? ? 5S31
?? Midheaven? ? 8 Libra 59? ? 0S53
Tropical ZodiacSun Sesquiquadrate Moon:
? ?? There is a basic undeniable tension between the two of you that will be 
both creative and irritating. It is apt to manifest itself in small ways, 
often in matters of personal comfort (such as the temperature each one 
prefers the thermostat set to, or a dislike for one another's domestic 
habits), but also in more profound ways, for instance: an inability to accept 
the other's family or familial background and traditions. Some resistance to 
your relationship by either or both of your families or old circle of friends 
can also be expected, at least initially. A marked degree of unease exists 
between the two of you on these subtle issues and this prevents you both from 
totally submerging yourselves into this relationship. In numerous subtle ways 
you are constantly reminded of your "otherness" and differences from one 
another, and you'll be both fascinated and frustrated by these fundamental 
differences.

? ? One of the purposes of your relationship is to challenge each of you to 
encounter (and even embrace) attitudes and aspects of life which your partner 
displays, and which are essentially very foreign to you. 

Sun Semisquare Venus:
? ?? Quite simply, one of your purposes in being together is to create and 
express beauty, whether this is in the form of a beautiful, loving 
relationship, or gracious and artful works. There can also be an element of 
vanity, artifice, or showoffiness? the desire to be seen and recognized as a 
Beautiful Couple, whether or not that's entirely true. Hiding or downplaying 
your difficulties and the "uglies" in your relationship may be helpful to a 
point, but if you try to maintain this image of yourselves as a happy, loving 
twosome despite your actual conflicts, then deeper troubles may never get 
attended to. However, whatever friction, dissonance, or ill will develops 
between you, there will also always be an urge to harmonize, reconcile, and 
ease your differences, and to create cooperation. It will take a lot for the 
two of you to ever turn against each other entirely. 

Sun Sextile Jupiter:
? ?? Together, life gets easier, better, and more satisfying for the two of 
you than it is for either of you separately. You are destined to help each 
other a great deal, to open
doors for one another that would have remained closed otherwise, and in 
general to increase optimism and hope in one another. As a team you will be 
highly successful. 

? ? There is a certain air of openness, tolerance, and freedom between you, 
and you would both encourage one another to seek friendship, positive 
experiences, and
rewarding connections outside of the relationship as well as within it. 

Sun Conjunct Pluto:
? ?? There is definitely an element of destiny or inevitability, something 
which cannot be resisted or avoided, in the two of you coming together. This 
relationship can take you further into your own depths than you've ever been 
before, and truly be lifechanging for both of you. You have a profound and 
powerful influence upon one another for good or ill, and once joined, it will 
be extremely difficult to ever totally sever your connection. You really get 
inside each other. You may become one
another's psychotherapist in a manner of speaking, because being together 
dredges up a lot of your hidden agendas or motives and you become aware of 
many more facets of yourselves than you were ever conscious of before. 

? ? Together, you can also be an incredibly potent force in other peoples' 
lives. Your charisma and influence as a couple far exceeds your individual 
powers. If the two of you are tempted to misuse this, you could be involved 
in manipulative games and power plays, Machiavellian exploits of all kinds. 
Using your powers creatively and positively, you could become healers or 
agents of transformation and renewal in the world. 

Moon Opposite Venus:
? ?? Tenderness, caring, and love are the essence of your bond. The feeling 
that the two of you were meant for one another, and a sense of reuniting and 
coming together again after having been separated, is a strong undertone 
between you. There is a lot of sweetness and affection here, and at least one 
part of your purpose together is simply to share that! In many ways you are 
complements to one another (rather than similar or the same as each other), 
and you can blend your different abilities and qualities to form a rich and 
harmonious whole. You need one another, and allowing
yourselves to be taken care of and depending on each other in certain ways 
are part of what this relationship is about.

?? Copyright (c) 2000 Astrology 3D, Inc.
This report was written to professional astrological standards, and is meant 
for Awareness Entertainment.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 23:39:48 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:39:48 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Natalie & Will Rogers
Message-ID: <F57IClmpcQABZTW5k1E0000369f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12367

Natalie -

I noticed your signature and I thought I would share a bit of Will trivia to 
you.  You see my great-grandfather lived in Oklahoma, and one day while he 
was driving, he picked up a hitch hiker.  It was a young lad who had run 
away from home.  My g-granddad asked him why, and he replied that his dad, a 
farmer, wanted him to become a farmer but he wasn't good at anything except 
for roping.  My g-grandfather dropped him off and never heard of him again 
until one day when he saw his pciture in the paper.  The boy was Will 
Rogers.  Bizzare, isn't it?

Signe



Natalie's Signature:

>Natalie
>natabat at flashmail.com / natabat at crosswinds.net
>http://www.natabat.com
>-----
>"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
>there."
>- Will Rogers
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Feb 15 23:46:50 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:46:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthYear) Long
References: <b4.11651c94.27bdc232@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A8C6A69.33E05C8D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12368

Hey Elizabeth --

I'd like to see this one using Hermione's actual birthdate -- September
19th.  You've got it set up as 1/1 which makes her a Capicorn instead of
a Virgo (and obviously has huge ramifications).

Thanks!

Penny

mlleelizabeth at aol.com wrote:

> The following astrological chart was prepared by Awarenet, a website
> that has
> an easy to use form to calculate a variety of astrological charts
> (both for
> free and for a fee).  The opinions and observations presented in this
> chart
> are those of Awarenet, not of the person posting it.  ***This chart
> was not
> prepared by me and does not in any way reflect my opinions concerning
> any of
> the characters.***  My intention in posting the chart is that it be
> used for
> fun discussion purposes and not that it be taken seriously.  As we
> don't know
> the characters' birthtimes, portions of this chart may incorrect.  I
> used
> 12:00 p.m. as the birthtime to calculate what Awarenet calls a
> "natural"
> chart.   The most likely portions to be affected by birthtime are the
> moon
> and ascendant.  I have used London as the birthplace for all
> characters born
> in England because it is contained in Awarenet's database and shares
> the same
> time zone with all other cities in England.  Awarenet's URL is:
> www.awarenet.com
>
> Love & Light,
> *Elizabeth*
> ~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~
>
>
> Positions for Harry Potter and Hermione
> Chart Comparison Interpretation for Harry Potter and HermioneHarry
> Potter
> born 7/31/1980 12:00
> In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: -1)
>
>
>    Sun    8 Leo 22    18N10
>    Moon    27 Pisces 39    3S53
>    Mercury    19 Cancer 0    20N07
>    Venus    25 Gemini 32    18N40
>    Mars    12 Libra 0    4S42
>    Jupiter    11 Virgo 32    8N12
>    Saturn    24 Virgo 0    4N19
>    Uranus    21 Scorpio 30    17S53
>    Neptune    20 Sagittarius 10    21S42
>    Pluto    19 Libra 10    8N07
>    Node    20 Leo 39    14N37
>    Ascendant    16 Libra 57    6S39
>    Midheaven    22 Cancer 16    21N36
> Tropical ZodiacHermione Granger born 1/01/1979 12:00
> In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: 0)
>
>
>    Sun    10 Capricorn 28    23S02
>    Moon    18 Aquarius 13    12S50
>    Mercury    19 Sagittarius 47    22S01
>    Venus    24 Scorpio 50    15S21
>    Mars    15 Capricorn 6    23S31
>    Jupiter    6 Leo 56    19N07
>    Saturn    13 Virgo 53    8N03
>    Uranus    19 Scorpio 43    17S21
>    Neptune    18 Sagittarius 52    21S36
>    Pluto    19 Libra 3    8N15
>    Node    21 Virgo 12    3N29
>    Ascendant    24 Aries 7    9N21
>    Midheaven    9 Capricorn 32    23S06
>
> Tropical ZodiacHarry Potter's Sun in Leo and Hermione Granger's Sun in
>
> Capricorn:     Hermione Granger's more emotionally detached, reserved,
>
> down-to-earth and somewhat cynical or skeptical attitude contrasts
> with Harry
> Potter's warm enthusiasm and basically cheerful temperament. In your
> personal
> style and tastes,
> also, this difference is very apparent: Hermione Granger prefers the
> classics, simple elegance, and either a very conservative, traditional
> style
> or an austere less-is-more,
> keep-it-simple style. Harry Potter has a generous, lavish hand and
> loves rich
> color, warmth, and brilliance that borders on gaudiness. Sometimes,
> this
> translates into
> emotional terms also. Hermione Granger is more careful, cooler, less
> inclined
> to gamble, wants a sure thing. Harry Potter is more open and
> expressive and
> warm, and needs an abundance of appreciation and affection - more than
>
> Hermione Granger is inclined to give sometimes. One thing you do have
> in
> common: you both take your commitments to heart, and you prize
> fidelity and
> loyalty.
>
> Hermione Granger's Moon in Aquarius and Harry Potter's Moon in Pisces:
>
> Your emotional rhythms and temperaments are rather different. Harry
> Potter is
> gentle, non-competitive, somewhat passive, and has a need to withdraw
> or "get
> away from it
> all" on a regular basis. Hermione Granger, on the other hand, needs
> involvement in the world and enjoys being in the flow of contemporary
> life.
>
>     More significantly, Harry Potter is very sensitive emotionally and
>
> psychically, and is a deeply feeling person, while Hermione Granger
> responds
> more rationally and
> intellectually to people and situations. Hermione Granger has strong
> humanitarian or idealistic impulses, but frequently lacks empathy in
> personal
> situations, whereas
> Harry Potter is so tender-hearted that others sometimes take
> advantage.
>
>     Hermione Granger is too cool, emotionally detached, and mental to
> suit
> Harry Potter sometimes. Hermione Granger needs intellectual
> stimulation and
> companionship, and is rather uncomfortable with excessive displays of
> feeling
> and
> Harry Potter's emotionality in general. Also, Harry Potter is highly
> intuitive, whereas Hermione Granger needs scientific evidence or
> support of
> the things that Harry Potter takes on faith. Hermione Granger
> questions Harry
> Potter's hunches and emotional or psychic impressions. However,
> Hermione
> Granger can also help Harry Potter get
> some distance and clarity about the emotional situations that Harry
> Potter
> gets so immersed in.
>
> Harry Potter's Sun in Hermione Granger's 5th house:
> Harry Potter encourages Hermione Granger's creative talents, and both
> of you
> are inspired to undertake joint creative projects. If you share a
> similar
> artistic or creative interest, then you certainly will work together
> and
> inspire each other tremendously along creative lines. You really enjoy
> each
> other's company and love to play games
> together.
>
> Hermione Granger's Sun in Harry Potter's 3rd house:
> Hermione Granger openly shares thoughts and ideas with Harry Potter,
> and the
> two of you love to share ideas, perhaps even gossip together.
>
> Harry Potter's Moon in Hermione Granger's 12th house:
> Hermione Granger likes to confide in Harry Potter, telling Harry
> Potter many
> events and circumstances from childhood that no one else has been
> told.
>
> Hermione Granger's Moon in Harry Potter's 4th house:
> It is highly probably that you will become involved in domestic
> affairs
> together, even if your relationship is not a close one. You enjoy
> living
> together and sharing in cooking, home maintenance, and you feel like
> "family"
> with each other.
>
> Composite Chart Interpretation for Harry Potter/Hermione Gra
>    Sun    24 Libra 24    2S26
>    Moon    7 Pisces 37    8S25
>    Mercury    4 Libra 21    0S57
>    Venus    10 Virgo 10    1N40
>    Mars    28 Scorpio 32    14S06
>    Jupiter    24 Leo 14    13N39
>    Saturn    18 Virgo 56    6N11
>    Uranus    20 Scorpio 36    17S37
>    Neptune    19 Sagittarius 31    21S39
>    Pluto    19 Libra 6    8N11
>    Node    5 Virgo 55    9N03
>    Ascendant    2 Capricorn 55    5S31
>    Midheaven    8 Libra 59    0S53
> Tropical ZodiacSun Sesquiquadrate Moon:
>      There is a basic undeniable tension between the two of you that
> will be
> both creative and irritating. It is apt to manifest itself in small
> ways,
> often in matters of personal comfort (such as the temperature each one
>
> prefers the thermostat set to, or a dislike for one another's domestic
>
> habits), but also in more profound ways, for instance: an inability to
> accept
> the other's family or familial background and traditions. Some
> resistance to
> your relationship by either or both of your families or old circle of
> friends
> can also be expected, at least initially. A marked degree of unease
> exists
> between the two of you on these subtle issues and this prevents you
> both from
> totally submerging yourselves into this relationship. In numerous
> subtle ways
> you are constantly reminded of your "otherness" and differences from
> one
> another, and you'll be both fascinated and frustrated by these
> fundamental
> differences.
>
>     One of the purposes of your relationship is to challenge each of
> you to
> encounter (and even embrace) attitudes and aspects of life which your
> partner
> displays, and which are essentially very foreign to you.
>
> Sun Semisquare Venus:
>      Quite simply, one of your purposes in being together is to create
> and
> express beauty, whether this is in the form of a beautiful, loving
> relationship, or gracious and artful works. There can also be an
> element of
> vanity, artifice, or showoffiness  the desire to be seen and
> recognized as a
> Beautiful Couple, whether or not that's entirely true. Hiding or
> downplaying
> your difficulties and the "uglies" in your relationship may be helpful
> to a
> point, but if you try to maintain this image of yourselves as a happy,
> loving
> twosome despite your actual conflicts, then deeper troubles may never
> get
> attended to. However, whatever friction, dissonance, or ill will
> develops
> between you, there will also always be an urge to harmonize,
> reconcile, and
> ease your differences, and to create cooperation. It will take a lot
> for the
> two of you to ever turn against each other entirely.
>
> Sun Sextile Jupiter:
>      Together, life gets easier, better, and more satisfying for the
> two of
> you than it is for either of you separately. You are destined to help
> each
> other a great deal, to open
> doors for one another that would have remained closed otherwise, and
> in
> general to increase optimism and hope in one another. As a team you
> will be
> highly successful.
>
>     There is a certain air of openness, tolerance, and freedom between
> you,
> and you would both encourage one another to seek friendship, positive
> experiences, and
> rewarding connections outside of the relationship as well as within
> it.
>
> Sun Conjunct Pluto:
>      There is definitely an element of destiny or inevitability,
> something
> which cannot be resisted or avoided, in the two of you coming
> together. This
> relationship can take you further into your own depths than you've
> ever been
> before, and truly be lifechanging for both of you. You have a profound
> and
> powerful influence upon one another for good or ill, and once joined,
> it will
> be extremely difficult to ever totally sever your connection. You
> really get
> inside each other. You may become one
> another's psychotherapist in a manner of speaking, because being
> together
> dredges up a lot of your hidden agendas or motives and you become
> aware of
> many more facets of yourselves than you were ever conscious of before.
>
>     Together, you can also be an incredibly potent force in other
> peoples'
> lives. Your charisma and influence as a couple far exceeds your
> individual
> powers. If the two of you are tempted to misuse this, you could be
> involved
> in manipulative games and power plays, Machiavellian exploits of all
> kinds.
> Using your powers creatively and positively, you could become healers
> or
> agents of transformation and renewal in the world.
>
> Moon Opposite Venus:
>      Tenderness, caring, and love are the essence of your bond. The
> feeling
> that the two of you were meant for one another, and a sense of
> reuniting and
> coming together again after having been separated, is a strong
> undertone
> between you. There is a lot of sweetness and affection here, and at
> least one
> part of your purpose together is simply to share that! In many ways
> you are
> complements to one another (rather than similar or the same as each
> other),
> and you can blend your different abilities and qualities to form a
> rich and
> harmonious whole. You need one another, and allowing
> yourselves to be taken care of and depending on each other in certain
> ways
> are part of what this relationship is about.
>
>    Copyright (c) 2000 Astrology 3D, Inc.
> This report was written to professional astrological standards, and is
> meant
> for Awareness Entertainment.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  [Classmates.com]
  Click here for Classmates.com

>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see
> our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check
> out our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Fri Feb 16 00:06:08 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:06:08 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthYear)...
Message-ID: <75.10592f99.27bdc8f0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12369

oops.  sorry, I'll redo it.

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From john at walton.to  Fri Feb 16 00:12:16 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:12:16 +0000
Subject: FW: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
Message-ID: <B6B220E0.BF82%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 12370

Ooh...look what I got!

--John

From: hogwarts at harrypotter.com
Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, 13:26:38
To: john at WALTON.TO
Subject: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...

Did you Witches, Wizards and Muggles think we forgot about you? Impossible!

To shed light on what we have waiting for you, here's an exclusive sneak
peek at the official Harry Potter Website where you can enroll and be sorted
at Hogwarts School, pay a visit to Diagon Alley, send a Howler via Owlpost
and more. Plus, other amazing features will magically appear over time, so
keep your eyes peeled.

Want a look? Just go to http://www.harrypotter.com and enter this top-secret
password when asked: Muggle

One more thing: This will be the only communication you receive unless you
sign up for the official Harry Potter Newsletter in the Platform 9 3/4 area
online. (http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/platform/index.jsp).

Enjoy your preview! The full site and all its spellbinding magic will be
unveiled to the rest of the world as soon as we're sure it's free of all
curses. So, keep your robes handy! The owls are on their way...





From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Fri Feb 16 00:21:08 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:21:08 EST
Subject: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart Correction (Using 1979 as Hermione's Birth Year) Long
Message-ID: <8.10566c1c.27bdcc74@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12371

The following astrological chart was prepared by Awarenet, a website that has 
an easy to use form to calculate a variety of astrological charts (both for 
free and for a fee).  The opinions and observations presented in this chart 
are those of Awarenet, not of the person posting it.  ***This chart was not 
prepared by me and does not in any way reflect my opinions concerning any of 
the characters.***  My intention in posting the chart is that it be used for 
fun discussion purposes and not that it be taken seriously.  As we don't know 
the characters' birthtimes, portions of this chart may incorrect.  I used 
12:00 p.m. as the birthtime to calculate what Awarenet calls a "natural" 
chart.   The most likely portions to be affected by birthtime are the moon 
and ascendant.  I have used London as the birthplace for all characters born 
in England because it is contained in Awarenet's database and shares the same 
time zone with all other cities in England.  Awarenet's URL is: 
www.awarenet.com

Sorry again for the previous error.  That's what I get for doing this while 
working! 

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~

Positions for Harry Potter and Hermione
Chart Comparison Interpretation for Harry Potter and HermioneHarry Potter 
born 7/31/1980 12:00
In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: -1)

? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 8 Leo 22? ? 18N10
?? Moon? ? 27 Pisces 39? ? 3S53
?? Mercury? ? 19 Cancer 0? ? 20N07
?? Venus? ? 25 Gemini 32? ? 18N40
?? Mars? ? 12 Libra 0? ? 4S42
?? Jupiter? ? 11 Virgo 32? ? 8N12
?? Saturn? ? 24 Virgo 0? ? 4N19
?? Uranus? ? 21 Scorpio 30? ? 17S53
?? Neptune? ? 20 Sagittarius 10? ? 21S42
?? Pluto? ? 19 Libra 10? ? 8N07
?? Node? ? 20 Leo 39? ? 14N37
?? Ascendant? ? 16 Libra 57? ? 6S39
?? Midheaven? ? 22 Cancer 16? ? 21N36

Tropical ZodiacHermione Granger born 9/19/1979 12:00
In London, UK (51N30 0W10 zone: -1)

? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 25 Virgo 55? ? 1N37
?? Moon? ? 4 Virgo 46? ? 9N27
?? Mercury? ? 1 Libra 12? ? 0N34
?? Venus? ? 2 Libra 41? ? 0N07
?? Mars? ? 26 Cancer 44? ? 21N41
?? Jupiter? ? 28 Leo 0? ? 12N53
?? Saturn? ? 18 Virgo 22? ? 6N17
?? Uranus? ? 18 Scorpio 11? ? 16S58
?? Neptune? ? 17 Sagittarius 51? ? 21S30
?? Pluto? ? 18 Libra 9? ? 8N12
?? Node? ? 7 Virgo 23? ? 8N48
?? Ascendant? ? 20 Scorpio 56? ? 17S59
?? Midheaven? ? 11 Virgo 8? ? 7N23

Tropical ZodiacHarry Potter's Sun in Leo and Hermione Granger's Sun in 
Virgo:? ?? You two are very different! Hermione Granger is more modest, 
self-effacing, shy, and unobtrusive than Harry Potter, who craves social 
approval, recognition, love, and applause. Harry Potter tends to step into 
the limelight and outshine or overpower Hermione Granger. Hermione Granger is 
more emotionally self-sufficient than Harry Potter is, and may not give Harry 
Potter all of the "strokes" and appreciation Harry Potter wants.

  ? ? Hermione Granger also has a tendency to become fussy and particular, 
and these fits of perfectionism can have disastrous consequences when the 
target of Hermione Granger's critical eye is Harry Potter. Harry Potter is 
particularly sensitive to criticism and tends to interpret Hermione Granger's 
"constructive criticism" as a personal attack. Hermione Granger is more 
analytical and psychologically astute than Harry Potter, who may not 
appreciate being "picked apart" or psychologically analyzed by Hermione 
Granger! Another problem in this relationship is that Harry Potter may take 
for granted much of the work and assistance that Hermione Granger provides.? 

Hermione Granger's Moon in Virgo and Harry Potter's Moon in Pisces:
? ?? You are opposites in many ways, yet your differences can be 
complementary and you can certainly learn a lot from one another. 

? ? Hermione Granger is factual, organized and efficient in dealing with 
material affairs, with an eye for details. Harry Potter is more imaginative 
and dreamy, and can be
disorganized or foggy when it comes to practical matters.

 ? ? With Hermione Granger, intellect often rules emotions, but with Harry 
Potter feelings dominate. Harry Potter is sentimental and compassionate and 
may give unwisely or indiscriminately to people in need, with no sense of 
what is actually appropriate: Hermione Granger also has a helpful, nurturing 
side but is more dispassionate, and definitely knows when to stop. 

? ? Also, Hermione Granger is highly perfectionistic and critical and often 
has impossibly strict or high standards for self or others to live up to. 
Harry Potter is the
opposite: tolerant, accepting, non-judgmental, loose, often undisciplined. 
Hermione Granger is drawn to this quality of unconditional, uncritical 
acceptance in Harry Potter, and Harry Potter can benefit from Hermione 
Granger's sense of order, clarity and simplicity. 

? ? Both of you are timid and even somewhat passive at times, with much 
sensitivity. Both are suited to work in the helping professions or along 
artistic lines (with Hermione Granger emphasizing technical ability and 
craftsmanship, Harry Potter emphasizing inspiration and imagination).? 

Harry Potter's Sun in Hermione Granger's 9th house:

? ?? Hermione Granger takes a great interest in Harry Potter's philosophical 
or religious outlook on life, and Harry Potter often assumes the role of 
teacher or mentor
towards Hermione Granger. 

Hermione Granger's Sun in Harry Potter's 12th house:
? ?? Even if you have been together for many years, Hermione Granger will 
continue to be intriguing and somewhat mysterious to Harry Potter. You have a 
knack for uncovering each other's hidden or repressed traits, and there is a 
deep, mysterious, perhaps even mystical quality to your relationship.? 

Harry Potter's Moon in Hermione Granger's 4th house:
? ?? It is highly probably that you will become involved in domestic affairs 
together, even if your relationship is not a close one. You enjoy living 
together and sharing in
cooking, home maintenance, and you feel like "family" with each other.? 

Hermione Granger's Moon in Harry Potter's 11th house:
? ?? You share a light-hearted, outgoing, friendly relationship. Even if your 
relationship becomes very close and intimate, you maintain a reasonable 
degree of objectivity about each other. The friendly feeling of comradery 
that you share makes your relationship enjoyable and fun, although Harry 
Potter may feel that you don't take
enough time to share inner feelings and deeper concerns.? 

Composite Chart Interpretation for Harry Potter/Hermione Gra? ? ? ?? 
?? Sun? ? 2 Virgo 8? ? 9N53
?? Moon? ? 16 Gemini 12? ? 2N47
?? Mercury? ? 25 Leo 6? ? 10N20
?? Venus? ? 14 Leo 6? ? 9N23
?? Mars? ? 4 Virgo 22? ? 8N30
?? Jupiter? ? 4 Virgo 46? ? 10N32
?? Saturn? ? 21 Virgo 11? ? 5N18
?? Uranus? ? 19 Scorpio 50? ? 17S25
?? Neptune? ? 19 Sagittarius 0? ? 21S36
?? Pluto? ? 18 Libra 39? ? 8N09
?? Node? ? 29 Leo 1? ? 11N42
?? Ascendant? ? 3 Scorpio 56? ? 12S19
?? Midheaven? ? 16 Leo 42? ? 14N29

Tropical ZodiacSun Conjunct Mercury:
? ?? Yours is an intellectual relationship, among other things. Exchanging 
thoughts, studying together, sharing information, talking and bantering, 
turning one another on
to new books or ideas, sparking one another's curiosity and interest in the 
world? all of these are important aspects of your relationship. A certain 
detachment and the ability to think about and talk about what is going on 
between you are also highlighted. Put simply, becoming more conscious or more 
informed and educated is a significant reason the two of you are drawn 
together. 

Sun Conjunct Mars:
? ?? Without a doubt, the two of you rouse strong energies within one 
another, and you will have to learn how to manage conflict, passion, and 
anger in a creative way. When you are together, you both tend to become 
competitive, overly eager, rambunctious, zealous. You are not destined to 
have a peaceful, placid coexistence! However, you can initiate new projects 
and get lots of work done together, if your drives are harnessed and 
channeled into creative enterprises. Winning at work and competition, 
developing a warrior spirit, encouraging one another to be bolder and more 
courageous? these are the positives you will discover and create together if 
you can diffuse the more aggressive, abrasive energies you bring out in each 
other. 

? ? Action, doing, accomplishing are much of what this relationship is about. 
Because you generate so much heat? on all levels? when you are together, your 
sexual energies will also be stimulated and will certainly be an undertone in 
your communication with one another. 

Sun Conjunct Jupiter:
? ?? Enormous benefits, expansion, success, and growth come to both of you 
through the vehicle of your relationship. You'll be blessed with unusual good 
fortune and fulfillment, both materially and in less tangible ways. Most of 
all, you will feel that you have plenty when you are together. Instead of 
seeing limitations, you'll be able to see
possibilities for an expanded life, opportunities that you may have missed 
before. Religion, philosophy, or higher education may become a focus in your 
relationship, even if neither of you is especially inclined that way. 

? ? You increase one another's optimism and broaden one another's viewpoints, 
opening up much more of the world to one another. Long distance travel or 
making connections to other parts of the world can be a part of this. 

? ? Essentially, your relationship is about increasing growth, freedom, and 
expansion in your lives. Much success and fulfillment are generated when you 
are together. 

Sun Semisquare Pluto:
? ?? The two of you have a very powerful and profound effect upon one another 
for good or ill, and a major temptation for you both is to use your power to 
control or change or reform one another. Inevitably you WILL be transformed 
as a result of your interaction with each other and the struggles you will 
face together, which at times may seem monumental. Circumstances which force 
you to eliminate everything you thought you knew or had, and begin all over 
again, will arise. You may lose something which is very precious to you both, 
but as a result, experience life on a much deeper
level. 

? ? This relationship is anything but superficial. It will probably be one of 
the most intense of your lives. At its best it can enable you both to reclaim 
power you never
realized was in you. 

Moon Opposite Neptune:
? ?? Hope, idealism, fantasy, and imagination permeate the atmosphere between 
you. Positively, your spiritual natures and your sensitivity to the concerns 
of your souls are
stimulated. A desire to "make beautiful music together" (literally or 
figuratively) is emphasized, and this is one of the reasons you are together. 

? ? However, the other possibility is that you misconstrue the facts or 
mislead one another to believe something that simply isn't so. Promises that 
turn out to be pure fantasy, unrealizable dreams, false hopes and 
expectations? these must be guarded against. In any case, you will idealize 
one another and your relationship, but try to be scrupulously and 
meticulously honest with one another as well.? 

Moon Trine Pluto:
? ?? Yours is destined to be a profound emotional union. There is a 
compelling, irresistable, intense desire to know one another deeply, and to 
be together. 

? ? If you are seeking a light, casual relationship just for fun and good 
times, you may want to run away from this one if you can! Inevitably, you 
will have powerful feelings of
attachment, even jealous possessiveness, toward one another. This needn't be 
troubling though. Mostly it's just a testament to your strong bond. 

? ? If either or both of you tends to be too rational and intellectual, your 
relationship with one another will remedy that! You'll share deeper feelings 
and become much more open to your own inner emotional life through being 
together. In fact, you may well have come together after one or both of you 
suffered a significant loss or trauma, and were thus much more aware of your 
heart and feelings and those deeper concerns that crisis forces upon us. One 
of the purposes of your relationship is to experience the depths of which you 
are capable, with another person.? 

?? Copyright (c) 2000 Astrology 3D, Inc.
This report was written to professional astrological standards, and is meant 
for Awareness Entertainment.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 00:23:31 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:23:31 -0000
Subject: FW: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
In-Reply-To: <B6B220E0.BF82%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <96hru3+pbps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12372

Niiice....anyone who visits, remember to turn your speakers on!


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Ooh...look what I got!
> 
> --John
> 
> From: hogwarts at h...
> Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, 13:26:38
> To: john at W...
> Subject: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
> 
> Did you Witches, Wizards and Muggles think we forgot about you? 
Impossible!
> 
> To shed light on what we have waiting for you, here's an exclusive 
sneak
> peek at the official Harry Potter Website where you can enroll and 
be sorted
> at Hogwarts School, pay a visit to Diagon Alley, send a Howler via 
Owlpost
> and more. Plus, other amazing features will magically appear over 
time, so
> keep your eyes peeled.
> 
> Want a look? Just go to http://www.harrypotter.com and enter this 
top-secret
> password when asked: Muggle
> 
> One more thing: This will be the only communication you receive 
unless you
> sign up for the official Harry Potter Newsletter in the Platform 9 
3/4 area
> online. (http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/platform/index.jsp).
> 
> Enjoy your preview! The full site and all its spellbinding magic 
will be
> unveiled to the rest of the world as soon as we're sure it's free 
of all
> curses. So, keep your robes handy! The owls are on their way...




From jsommer at hal-pc.org  Fri Feb 16 00:32:03 2001
From: jsommer at hal-pc.org (jsommer at hal-pc.org)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:32:03 -0000
Subject: Mother's Love
Message-ID: <96hse3+f3b3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12373

I have been lurking for a little while, but have decided to dive in.  
I did a short search (and actually read some of the hits) and didn't 
see anything on this...

What do you think of the parallels between the actions of Lilly and 
the actions of Mrs. Crouch?  Both sacrifaced their lives to save 
their sons.  One has (so far) had a good result.  (The so far refers 
to Voldermort's statements to the effect that he has now 'taken' some 
of Lilly's magical protection by taking Harry's blood -- at least 
that's my memory of it).

But Mrs. Crouch's sacriface was a disaster.  I am one of the readers 
who would like to see well-rounded female characters (beyond 
Hermione) and I know that JKR cares deeply about single mothers, 
but ... I'm a little apprehensive.  I don't know whether she might be 
heading for a very interesting point about what motherhood is and is 
not inherently.  It would be annoying if it is simply going to turn 
out to be a point about the falliability of mothers (as opposed to 
one about parents generally).

By the way, aren't there an awful lot of orphans -- perhaps that's 
why no one thought to ask Neville about why he lives with his 
grandmother.

Jeanne




From ender_w at msn.com  Fri Feb 16 00:47:55 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:47:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting couch 2: Voldemort-Riddle idea
References: <F91hbqs3tOuxtscRM0Y000035f6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c097b2$1b25aa40$fe690f3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12374


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stephanie Malfoy 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 4:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting couch 2: Voldemort-Riddle idea

  Stephanie exclaimed about Jamie Bell:


  >>See, he would make a GREAT Tom Riddle, but it is kind of my desire to see 
  >>him play Cedric Diggory.  They are both rather small parts, but I don't 
  >>know.

  >>But does anyone else think that the guy playing Flint is too good looking?  
  >>As a horomonally challenged teenager(kidding, kidding) i can say he is very 
  >>good looking, and I just never pictured Flint that way.  he would make a 
  >>good Cedric...

  Stephanie
  >>THRILLED with that site...so thanks to who sent it!


  Bell as Cedric...that's an interesting thought.  Personally, I was rooting for Bell to be a Weasley, but I could see him as Diggory too.  I, myself, pictured Cedric as Ioann Gruffudd (Horatio Hornblower).  Yes, I know he's too old (definitely will be by the time they get to GoF), but that's my personal image.
  I very much agree with you about Flint.  Isn't the Slytherin team, or at least some members of it, described as looking like they have troll blood?  I pictured Flint to be big, dark and hulking.  the actor playing him is slender, cute and blond.  It just doesn't work for me.
  And I'm still a little put off by the casting of Oliver Wood.  For some reason, I pictured him being black.  Yes, I know there's no canonical evidence of that (though didn't JKR wait until GoF to tell us Angelina's black?  Or did i miss something?), but I get very attached to my personal images of the characters.

  ender
  _________________________________________________________________
  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Fri Feb 16 01:21:50 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:21:50 +0100
Subject: For all Moody adorers and Furry-Draco lovers
Message-ID: <015301c097b6$d725e1c0$55c206d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12375

The things that exist out there...

http://www.corg.org/main.htm

This is total insane...

 ~ Dinah ~    

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows. 
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out, 
but when the darkness sets in, 
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth K?bler-Ross


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 16 01:29:05 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:29:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting call
References: <96haqg+6sp3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8C8261.E180EEA4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12376

pbnesbit at msn.com wrote:

> My movie-going is limited pretty much to historical shows (Rob Roy,
> Braveheart, etc.) so I'm probably not the best person to judge these
> things.

Especially if you think "Braveheart" was historical. It was a good
movie, don't get me wrong, but it had just boatloads of historical
inaccuracies. Rob Roy, on the other hand, was impressive in its
attention to historical detail (down to things like the height of shoe
heels and certain phrases).

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Feb 16 01:30:52 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:30:52 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...]
Message-ID: <3A8C82CC.C538015C@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12377



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
   Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, 13:26:38
   From: hogwarts at harrypotter.com
     To: heiditandy at THE-BEACH.NET


[Image][Image]
[Image]

Did you Witches, Wizards and Muggles think we forgot
about you? Impossible!

To shed light on what we have waiting for you, here's an
exclusive sneak peek at the official Harry Potter Website
where you can enroll and be sorted at Hogwarts School,
pay a visit to Diagon Alley, send a Howler via Owlpost
and more. Plus, other amazing features will magically
appear over time, so keep your eyes peeled.

Want a look? Just click here and enter this top-secret
password when asked: Muggle

One more thing: This will be the only communication you
receive unless you sign up for the official Harry Potter
Newsletter in the Platform 9 3/4 area online.

Enjoy your preview! The full site and all its
spellbinding magic will be unveiled to the rest of the
world as soon as we're sure it's free of all curses. So,
keep your robes handy! The owls are on their way...






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Fri Feb 16 01:34:37 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:34:37 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...]
References: <3A8C82CC.C538015C@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <020101c097b8$a6081ca0$55c206d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12378

Ahem Heidi?

Any link for that?

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 2:30 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...]


>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
>    Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, 13:26:38
>    From: hogwarts at harrypotter.com
>      To: heiditandy at THE-BEACH.NET
>
>
> [Image][Image]
> [Image]
>
> Did you Witches, Wizards and Muggles think we forgot
> about you? Impossible!
>
> To shed light on what we have waiting for you, here's an
> exclusive sneak peek at the official Harry Potter Website
> where you can enroll and be sorted at Hogwarts School,
> pay a visit to Diagon Alley, send a Howler via Owlpost
> and more. Plus, other amazing features will magically
> appear over time, so keep your eyes peeled.
>
> Want a look? Just click here and enter this top-secret
> password when asked: Muggle
>
> One more thing: This will be the only communication you
> receive unless you sign up for the official Harry Potter
> Newsletter in the Platform 9 3/4 area online.
>
> Enjoy your preview! The full site and all its
> spellbinding magic will be unveiled to the rest of the
> world as soon as we're sure it's free of all curses. So,
> keep your robes handy! The owls are on their way...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Feb 16 01:34:54 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:34:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...]
References: <3A8C82CC.C538015C@alumni.upenn.edu> <020101c097b8$a6081ca0$55c206d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A8C83BE.EF51550A@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12379

If you didn't get it in HTML, the link is
http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/home.jsp - the password is MUGGLE

Dinah wrote:

> Ahem Heidi?
>
> Any link for that?
>
> ~ Dinah ~
>
> ICQ: 10 44 52 471
> YM: bludger_witch
>
> People are like stained-glass windows.
> They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
> but when the darkness sets in,
> their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.
>
> ~Elizabeth K?bler-Ross
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu>
> To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 2:30 AM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter
> Invitation...]
>
>
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
> >    Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, 13:26:38
> >    From: hogwarts at harrypotter.com
> >      To: heiditandy at THE-BEACH.NET
> >
> >
> > [Image][Image]
> > [Image]
> >
> > Did you Witches, Wizards and Muggles think we forgot
> > about you? Impossible!
> >
> > To shed light on what we have waiting for you, here's an
> > exclusive sneak peek at the official Harry Potter Website
> > where you can enroll and be sorted at Hogwarts School,
> > pay a visit to Diagon Alley, send a Howler via Owlpost
> > and more. Plus, other amazing features will magically
> > appear over time, so keep your eyes peeled.
> >
> > Want a look? Just click here and enter this top-secret
> > password when asked: Muggle
> >
> > One more thing: This will be the only communication you
> > receive unless you sign up for the official Harry Potter
> > Newsletter in the Platform 9 3/4 area online.
> >
> > Enjoy your preview! The full site and all its
> > spellbinding magic will be unveiled to the rest of the
> > world as soon as we're sure it's free of all curses. So,
> > keep your robes handy! The owls are on their way...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information,
> see our
> > website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can
> check out
> our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
> groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  [Corbis - The Place for Pictures Online]

>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see
> our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check
> out our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
> groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 16 01:40:19 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:40:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Appearance of the Number 12
References: <F98FopYC98Bi89QtpfT0000357e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A8C8503.EE6B72F6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12380

Stephanie Malfoy wrote:

> OH NO....ha ha ha.  My english teacher goes on and on and on about the
> signifigance of the number 3, and we are about to start Macbeth <vbg>
> Anyways, she looks as it is an evil thing, though she claims "anything
> signifigant comes in 3s or is a multiple of 3"  Anyways...i never
> noticed all of the 12s before, and I htinkit is funny, or maybe it is
> JKR's fav number.  Kind of like when you make a word search(for
> whatever reason) your fav letters, or rather more common letters,
> appear more than less common ones.  Just a thought...

Two and three often have mystical associations in many cultures, because
of the man+woman and then child thing. Three in particular, since with
the whole fertility thing 1+1=3. So multiples of three show up in old
"spells" and simples, Welsh triads, and loads of other stuff, even unto
modern Catholic novenas and the like. Three, nine, and twenty-seven are
the main numbers of repetitions I'm recalling....Wiccans?
Former-Catholic Wiccan Susan? Am I remembering right?

Twelve was a great number mystically because it was divisible by so many
other numbers. It had simply oodles of significant combinations inherent
in it. There's speculation that the reason the number 13 is unlucky is
that it falls right after 12, and isn't divisible by anything. Oooo.

--Amanda, who wishes she could recall specifics of her old cultural
anthropology stuff


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 01:41:12 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:41:12 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: H/H Ship Charts
Message-ID: <F143EXmai4droE0cxDn000005d7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12381

Hi, Elizabeth and all--

I've been enjoying the birth charts immensely!  What fun... I really wish we 
knew more characters' birthdays.  Someone MUST ask JKR when Ron's birthday 
is... a great scene in the fifth book might be a Weasley surprise 
celebration for their youngest son.  Sirius, Lupin, and TMR/V are other 
characters whose birthdays I'd like to know.

The H/H ship star charts are of special interest, of course.  <vbg>  I don't 
know much about astrology at all, but from the little dabbling in it I 
engaged in during my teen years, I never believed that the two characters 
featured in my pet ship were star-crossed.

Speaking strictly of sun signs, the prospects don't seem the brightest.  A 
Leo and a Virgo?  Not in my real-life experience... I'm a Leo myself.  So 
the charts were far better than expected.  Thank goodness for all the other 
planets.  ;-)

The regular Sunday chatters have speculated that Ron is a Taurus.  (I wonder 
why?)  In my outline, I've situated his birthday on May 15, simply because I 
like the date and have written other characters with that birthday.  Just 
speaking from sun signs, wouldn't a Taurus (earth) and a Virgo (water) get 
along better?

So astrologically speaking, I have the sneaking suspicion that Ron and 
Hermione just might be the more star-crossed match.  Who knows?  Ask 
Firenze, not I.  ;0)

As much as I love our own Catlady, I can't see Draco as a Midsummer's Night 
Eve baby.  His birthday *has* to be sometime between November and January.  
Has to.  Such a dark-souled child could not have been born on the longest 
day of the year.  The irony is just... no.  Make him a Scorpio or a 
Capricorn, *please*.

And why does it seem as if JKR and her fans are situating a lot of these 
birthdays in the spring and the summer?  Is no one born during the Hogwarts 
school year?

--Ebony (who believes the twins were born on April Fool's Day)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 02:51:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:51:34 -0000
Subject: Gerbils (OT? was Moody 'n' Draco) - Birthdates (FF/SHIP)
Message-ID: <96i4jm+av0i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12382

Okay, Dinah, I give up.  I have searched the site (and am now 
convinced that God is a gerbil) but have found nothing related to 
Moody or Draco, furry or otherwise.  Please advise.

Ebony wrote:

>As much as I love our own Catlady, I can't see Draco as a Midsummer's 
>Night Eve baby.  His birthday *has* to be sometime between November 
>and January.  Has to.  Such a dark-souled child could not have been 
>born on the longest day of the year.  The irony is just... no.  Make 
>him a Scorpio or a Capricorn, *please*.

So what you're saying is that he was born under the baleful influence 
of Saturn.

>And why does it seem as if JKR and her fans are situating a lot of 
>these birthdays in the spring and the summer?  Is no one born during 
>the Hogwarts school year?

Well, there's a little-known secret about the wizarding world, buried 
from the sight of most in Notebook #12 of Filing Box #36 in Jo's 
study, but those of us who have the Inner Eye have been given to 
divine it:  magical folk are only fertile between the autumn equinox 
and winter solstice.  After that they enter a period of frustration 
and sexual stasis, leading to polar-bear dips in the lake, 
uncontrollable binges on sweets, and Christmas Night arguments....

...oh, forget it, I don't have the energy.  How about this 
explanation: spring birthdays are the best?

;-)
Amy Z, Gemini

----------------------------------------------
Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion
by turning into a large canary.
                  --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Feb 16 03:20:33 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:20:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Number 12
References: <982275303.2799.16392.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c097c7$6d04efa0$2bdd4b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12383

Subject: Re: The Appearance of the Number 12

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Has anyone else noticed that the number 12 keeps cropping up?
> There are twelve Christmas trees set up in the Great Hall each
year.
> There are twelve different ways to use Dragon's Blood.
> Harry thought, "he'd have gambled twelve Sorceror's Stones that
Snape
> had just left the room." SS-15
>
When I did a Bible Study class in Revelations, one of the commentaries upon
that singularly eldritch volume noted that the number four in ancient
numerology signified the world (i.e., the four corners of the earth), and
the number three represented the Triune God.  So three times four signifies
God's intervention in the terrestrial domain (so does three plus four =
hence the multiple references to seven in the Revelations: the seven
churches, seals, trumpets, thunders, etc). Thus, in chapter 7 (!) we have
the discussion of the twelve thousand representatives of the twelve tribes
of Israel; the mother with child in chapter 12 (!!) wears a crown of 12
stars; and the description of the New Jerusalem in Chapter 21 (12
backwards!) tells us that the city has 12 gates (each with 12 pearls), and
that the city measured 12 thousand stadia in both length and breadth (=144
cubits).

   - CMC




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Fri Feb 16 03:35:06 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:35:06 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Astrology Charts (Some Shippy) & Wizard Parties & Birthdays
Message-ID: <63.11e05c0e.27bdf9ea@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12384

In a message dated 2/15/2001 8:45:17 PM EST, ebonyink at hotmail.com writes:

<< I've been enjoying the birth charts immensely!  What fun... >>

Glad you are enjoying them!  I was a bit worried because they are just so 
darned long!

<>

Ohhhhh!  What a great idea!  That would be such fun!  I bet the twins are 
really fun at surprise parties! <g>  I want to see a Wizard birthday cake and 
presents that are charmed to re-wrap themselves so you can't get into them 
until you say the right spell and Wizard party games and magic indoor 
fireworks!  

<Sirius, Lupin, and TMR/V are other characters whose birthdays I'd like to 
know.>

Those would be quite interesting ... and I'd love to know Draco's of course 
and Snape's and McGonagall's and Neville's and Dumbledore's.  I think 
Dumbledore may be a Capricorn (cardinal/earth).  
 
 <Speaking strictly of sun signs, the prospects don't seem the brightest.  A 
 Leo and a Virgo?  Not in my real-life experience... I'm a Leo myself.  So 
 the charts were far better than expected.  Thank goodness for all the other 
 planets.  ;-) >

Usually signs that are fall next to each other face lots of challenges when 
it comes to relationships, but they are never completely unworkable based on 
that factor alone.  Moon signs (which deal with emotions and deep inner 
feelings) are very important when it comes to relationships, and, of course, 
so is Venus!  In my own real-life experience I've had plenty of good, happy, 
healthy relationships with people whose sun signs should have been 
incompatible with my own and some really awful relationships with folks who 
should have been very compatible according to our sun signs.  That's a big 
part of why I take it all with a grain of salt (but still find it lots of fun 
to overanalyze!).

 <The regular Sunday chatters have speculated that Ron is a Taurus.  (I 
wonder 
 why?)  In my outline, I've situated his birthday on May 15, simply because I 
 like the date and have written other characters with that birthday.  Just 
 speaking from sun signs, wouldn't a Taurus (earth) and a Virgo (water) get 
 along better?>

Taurus is fixed earth and Virgo is mutable earth.  Checking my astrology 
books, I find that these two signs are "squares" which means they are not 
particularly compatible.  However, I don't really see Ron as a Taurus.  Part 
of me wants to call him a Sagittarius, but that's partly because my boss, who 
is a dead ringer for an American grown-up Ron, is a Sagittarius.  I do think 
Ron's some form of fire sign (Leo/Sagittarius/Aries).  
 
 <<So astrologically speaking, I have the sneaking suspicion that Ron and 
 Hermione just might be the more star-crossed match.  Who knows?  Ask 
 Firenze, not I.  ;0) >>

Who knows, indeed.  I reckon H/H (fixed fire & mutable earth) and R/H 
(speculatively on my part: mutable fire & mutable earth) are equally 
star-crossed, but if we ever discover Ron's birthday, I'll post R/H ship 
charts for y'all, whatever they may say.  
 
 <<As much as I love our own Catlady, I can't see Draco as a Midsummer's 
Night 
 Eve baby.  His birthday *has* to be sometime between November and January.  
 Has to.  Such a dark-souled child could not have been born on the longest 
 day of the year.  The irony is just... no.  Make him a Scorpio or a 
 Capricorn, *please*.>>

A May 21st birthday would make Draco a Gemini (mutable/air) (or Taurus/Gemini 
cusp). I love our own Catlady too (and hope she doesn't mind this), but my 
guess is that Draco's a Scorpio (fixed/water).  Draco doesn't remind me much 
of the Geminis I know.  And I haven't made him a Scorpio because I'm one 
myself (though I am, with Moon and Ascendant both in Aquarius {fixed/air} for 
anyone who's collecting Liz trivia), but because:

1) His gray eyes seem very significant (and Scorpions are known for their 
scary/captivating eyes);
2) He can hold a grudge quite well;
3) He's a bit into the dark/occult side of things (not all Scorpios are, but 
it's another thing associated with them);
4) He's two sexy to die; and
5) I agree with Ebony that he's a fall/winter baby.

 <And why does it seem as if JKR and her fans are situating a lot of these 
 birthdays in the spring and the summer?  Is no one born during the Hogwarts 
 school year?>

But we only know 2 birthdays, so there could be lots and lots of winter 
wizard babies as well.  
 < --Ebony (who believes the twins were born on April Fool's Day) >>

*giggle*  How very, very appropriate!  That would make them Taureans 
(fixed/earth) and sensual and earthy and ....my opposite sign.... 
::::swoon::::

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*



From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Fri Feb 16 03:39:07 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:39:07 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Swerving OT - The Appearance of the Number 12'
Message-ID: <a0.1027f528.27bdfadb@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12385

In a message dated 2/15/2001 8:45:17 PM EST, editor at texas.net writes:

<< Three, nine, and twenty-seven are
 the main numbers of repetitions I'm recalling....Wiccans?
 Former-Catholic Wiccan Susan? Am I remembering right? >>

I'm not Wiccan, Amanda. I follow the Druid path, and 3's, 9's and 27's are 
very important to us.  Thanks for bringing up the triads.

Hope that's helpful.

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 16 03:49:08 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:49:08 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Help! McGonagall's book of babies born with magical  powers
References: <96hem4+pvco@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8CA333.A5ECCAE3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12386

Doreen Rich wrote:

> I am trying to find the reference to the book or scroll in which it is
> written which babies are born with magical powers and upon their
> eleventh birthdays, get sent invitations to Hogwarts.
>
> I know this is referred to at least once, if not twice.

Found it! Found it! And damn you for asking a question like this, that I
*had* to find the answer to, on a night when I got the kids to bed early
and could have crashed early myself!

(1)
Message #9707 states (in part, at the end):

I agree with Meg.  In one of the online chats with JKR on Scholastic.com
(the transcripts are printed there), JKR says,"In Hogwarts there's a
magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and writes his
or her name down in a large parchment book.  Every year Professor
MacGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to the people who are
turning 11."  This would seem to indicate that there is not a set number
of students for each class or each house.  It just depends how many
magical kids are born each year and then turn 11 and get their owl.
Also, if there are close to 1,000 students (which JKR said in the same
chat) it is quite possible Harry only mentions the kids he knows by name
-- I doubt he would know all 1,000 by name, eh?

This is my theory. Rip it to shreds as you will:)

Amy Johnston

(2)
And here's the URL of the transcript of the chat, too:

http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm

because it's kind of fun to read, anyway. AND she refers offhand to a
character "John Weasley," whom I'm betting is Arthur in a previous
editorial incarnation...whatcha think? Or mayhap it's Ron and a typo?

--Amanda, no life, no sleep, but always dishes and laundry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Feb 16 04:08:14 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:08:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Chuck Jones
References: <982286679.2926.88490.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c097ce$169514e0$2bdd4b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12387


------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. OT: Chuck Jones
           From: Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
      2. Re: A thought about divination
           From: JMLeake at aol.com
      3. Re: Re: The Appearance of the Number 3
           From: "Denise R" <gypsycaine at yahoo.com>
      4. New file uploaded to HPforGrownups
           From: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
      5. Hermione's Natal Chart (Using 1980 as her Birth Year)
           From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com
      6. RE: HP font
           From: "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at primenet.com>
      7. HP font
           From: Michelle Brose <mbrose at akula.com>
      8. For Many Are Called...
           From: Meghan <meg at fenya.net>
      9. New file uploaded to HPforGrownups
           From: "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at primenet.com>
     10. Re: HP font
           From: "Rina Stewart" <rina at love-productions.com>
     11. Re: Re: Casting call
           From: "Lisa Gansky" <chessdiva at hotmail.com>
     12. Re: Re: accents (was Casting call)
           From: "Lisa Gansky" <chessdiva at hotmail.com>
     13. Hermione's Natal Chart (Using 1979 as her Birth Year) Still Long
           From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com
     14. Dumbledore an Animagus?
           From: "Natalie" <natabat at crosswinds.net>
     15. SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1980 as Hermione's Birth Year) Long
           From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com
     16. SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's Birth Year) Long
           From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com
     17. OT: Natalie & Will Rogers
           From: "Signe Cluiss" <signe_weasley at hotmail.com>
     18. Re: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthYear) Long
           From: Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net>
     19. Re: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthYear)...
           From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com
     20. FW: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
           From: John Walton <john at walton.to>
     21. SHIP: H/H Ship Chart Correction (Using 1979 as Hermione's Birth
Year) Long
           From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com
     22. Re: FW: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
           From: nlpnt at yahoo.com
     23. Mother's Love
           From: jsommer at hal-pc.org
     24. Re: Re: Casting couch 2: Voldemort-Riddle idea
           From: "ender_w" <ender_w at msn.com>
     25. For all Moody adorers and Furry-Draco lovers
           From: "Dinah" <betty_belladonna at freenet.de>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:22:51 -0800
   From: Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
Subject: OT: Chuck Jones

At 12:55 PM 2/15/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>I didn't remember their names.  I saw RTT when I was about 5, and
>those cobras induced a fear of flushing toilets in me for years (don't
>ask).  Maybe I'll see it again, now that my phobia has faded and CM
>has informed us that the animator was the sublime Chuck Jones.

>I highly recommend Chuck Jones' _Riki-Tiki-Tavi_, as well as his
>version of _Mowgli's Brothers_ -- It kicks the Disney version's
>donkey.

Yes! And of course trashing Disney is a beloved WB tradition, continuing
down to the present day (e.g., the Animaniacs' "Surprises of Life" take-off
on the opening of The Lion King)

The following link provides some info on those videos:

http://www.familyhomeent.com/chuckjones/rikki.html

   - CMC




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Feb 16 04:19:24 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 04:19:24 -0000
Subject: FW: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
In-Reply-To: <96hru3+pbps@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96i9oc+cp8v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12388

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:
> Niiice....anyone who visits, remember to turn your speakers on!
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> > Ooh...look what I got!
> > 
> > --John
> > 
> > From: hogwarts at h...
> > Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, 13:26:38
> > To: john at W...
> > Subject: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
> > 
> > Did you Witches, Wizards and Muggles think we forgot about you? 
> Impossible!
> > 
> > To shed light on what we have waiting for you, here's an 
exclusive 
> sneak
> > peek at the official Harry Potter Website where you can enroll 
and 
> be sorted
> > at Hogwarts School, pay a visit to Diagon Alley, send a Howler 
via 
> Owlpost
> > and more. Plus, other amazing features will magically appear over 
> time, so
> > keep your eyes peeled.
> > 
> > Want a look? Just go to http://www.harrypotter.com and enter this 
> top-secret
> > password when asked: Muggle
> > 
> > One more thing: This will be the only communication you receive 
> unless you
> > sign up for the official Harry Potter Newsletter in the Platform 
9 
> 3/4 area
> > online. 
(http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/platform/index.jsp).
> > 
> > Enjoy your preview! The full site and all its spellbinding magic 
> will be
> > unveiled to the rest of the world as soon as we're sure it's free 
> of all
> > curses. So, keep your robes handy! The owls are on their way...




I got one too.  However, when I went to sign up for the newsletter, I 
got a page error signal & it wouldn't let me continue.  Hmm.  Has 
anyone else experienced this problem?  


Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Feb 16 04:23:54 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 04:23:54 -0000
Subject: Casting call
In-Reply-To: <3A8C8261.E180EEA4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96ia0q+cp9t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12389

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> 
> > My movie-going is limited pretty much to historical shows (Rob 
Roy,
> > Braveheart, etc.) so I'm probably not the best person to judge 
these
> > things.
> 
> Especially if you think "Braveheart" was historical. It was a good
> movie, don't get me wrong, but it had just boatloads of historical
> inaccuracies. Rob Roy, on the other hand, was impressive in its
> attention to historical detail (down to things like the height of 
shoe
> heels and certain phrases).
> 
> --Amanda

Gosh, no, Amanda (I'm a professional historian & proud Scot)!  By 
historical I meant movies that are set in periods other than our 
own.  <vbg>

Peace & Plenty,

Parker
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Feb 16 05:54:05 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:54:05 -0000
Subject: Help! McGonagall's book of babies born with magical  powers
In-Reply-To: <3A8CA333.A5ECCAE3@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96if9t+jqqi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12390

I am so so so so sorry! Yes, that is exactly where I read that. And 
it is so frustrating to realize that it was not from one of the 
books, but rather from something I read on the internet. This is the 
second time that this has happened to me. The first time, was when I 
distinctly remembered reading that Molly Weasley was the only Weasley 
who was not a redhead. It turned out to be a statement made on a 
German HP website, next to a picture drawn by one of its readers.(In 
the meantime, I found the line in PoA describing the black & white 
picture of the Weasleys, saying, "all with flaming-red hair" PoA-1)

I guess this is sort of like waking from a dream and not knowing 
whether something really happened or if it was part of your dream. 

I should have known that if I could not find it in here or in the 
Lexicon, that it must exist elsewhere, because between the two, there 
is not much left in the books that is not in one or the other. 
Again, my apologies for your loss of sleep. If I lived nearby, I 
would offer to babysit while you took a much-deserved nap.

Egg-on-my-face Doreen

> Found it! Found it! And damn you for asking a question like this, 
that I
> *had* to find the answer to, on a night when I got the kids to bed 
early
> and could have crashed early myself!
> 
> (1)
> Message #9707 states (in part, at the end):
> 
> I agree with Meg.  In one of the online chats with JKR on 
Scholastic.com
> (the transcripts are printed there), JKR says,"In Hogwarts there's a
> magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and 
writes his
> or her name down in a large parchment book.  Every year Professor
> MacGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to the people who are
> turning 11."  > Amy Johnston





From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Thu Feb 15 16:51:29 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:51:29 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting - Hugh Laurie
References: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC068F@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <000001c097f1$6947ce80$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12391

Gwen wrote:
> Hugh Laurie as Arthur: Yes! Yes! Yes! <snip>and he was the grumpy
> husband of the overly talkative niece in Sense and Sensibility (in which
he
> was wasted, IMO).

Ahhh, so that's *him*! The name meant nothing to me, but then I'm holpless
with remembering names - when I heard that a guy called Alan Rickman was
casted as Snape I didn't realize that I had seen him as Sheriff of
Nottingham. Then I've checked who he actually was, borrowed some videos and
caught Rickmania in a matter of two days ;-)
And *of course* I'm talking about either Snape or Rickman as usual, so back
to the topic: yeah, Laurie'd be good for the part of Arthur Weasley, but I'm
a bit uncomfortable about the age. I think that it'd be much better if
Laurie was Rickman's age and vice versa.
And I don't think he was wasted in "Sense and Sensibility" Remember that
scene when he was showing his son to Brandon?
And one more thing - Arthur Weasley doesn't do much in CoS, he's more
important in GoF. I'm afraid the moviemakers may leave this character out of
the second movie. But no, they can't do this, they can't....

Monika Z.
(The Snape fan)




From bbennett at joymail.com  Fri Feb 16 11:39:47 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:39:47 -0000
Subject: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthYear) Long
In-Reply-To: <3A8C6A69.33E05C8D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <96j3i3+bdpd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12392

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 

> Hey Elizabeth --
> 
> I'd like to see this one using Hermione's actual birthdate -- 
September 19th.  You've got it set up as 1/1 which makes her a 
Capicorn instead of a Virgo (and obviously has huge 
ramifications).
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Penny

I realize you guys are having fun figuring this all out, but can you 
imagine what Hermione would think about it? She probably 
ranks star charting as only slightly more reliable than divination 
<g>.

B.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 12:30:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:30:10 -0000
Subject: Mr. W in the movies
In-Reply-To: <000001c097f1$6947ce80$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <96j6gi+avht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12393

Monika Z. (The Snape fan)
(also the AW fan, apparently) wrote:

> And one more thing - Arthur Weasley doesn't do much in CoS, he's 
more
> important in GoF. I'm afraid the moviemakers may leave this 
character out of
> the second movie. But no, they can't do this, they can't....

He has a significant part in PoA too.  I know they have to cut out a 
lot of stuff, but I suspect the growing involvement of the Weasleys is 
important to the overall 7-book plot so they'd better start laying the 
groundwork now, just as JKR has.  Of course, my suspicions could be 
wrong.  Plus I doubt they'll craft the movies as carefully as she's 
doing the books.

But he has to be in CoS.  I just have to see him ask the boys how the 
car worked!  And grill Harry about phones and the postal service! 

Amy Z
still bothered by that elusive "Virginia" reference . . . I 
know she's in there somewhere--someone help!

---------------------------------------------
Harry liked this clock.  It was completely
useless if you wanted to know the time, but
otherwise very informative.
                 --HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 12:39:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:39:16 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's changes
Message-ID: <96j71k+nut0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12394

I noticed a reference on last Sunday's chat to a widespread belief 
that Hagrid's character has changed a lot over the four books.  I'd be 
really interested in hearing about this--I hadn't particularly picked 
up on it myself.  Do any proponents of this belief want to expand a 
little?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
  "Do you mean to tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that
this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" 
  Harry thought this was going a bit far. 
                               -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 16 12:45:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:45:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Help! McGonagall's book of babies born with  magical  powers
References: <96if9t+jqqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8D20D5.847DBCD4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12395

Doreen Rich wrote:

> I am so so so so sorry! Yes, that is exactly where I read that. And it
> is so frustrating to realize that it was not from one of the books,
> but rather from something I read on the internet. This is the second
> time that this has happened to me. The first time, was when I
> distinctly remembered reading that Molly Weasley was the only Weasley
> who was not a redhead. It turned out to be a statement made on a
> German HP website, next to a picture drawn by one of its eaders.(In
> the meantime, I found the line in PoA describing the black & white
> picture of the Weasleys, saying, "all with flaming-red hair" PoA-1)

This is *exactly* the reason Steve and I and the other lunatic purists
don't read fanfic. We have enough trouble with distinguishing this
group's well-reasoned conclusions from canon, already.

Is there an extant term--it can't be "canon," since it's not in the
books, can it?--for details that JKR has supplied, which are therefore
Right, as distinguished from non-book material from other sources? For
things like Lexicon purposes and such?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 14:04:28 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:04:28 -0000
Subject: FF:  Canon and fanon (was:  McGonagall's book etc.)
In-Reply-To: <3A8D20D5.847DBCD4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96jc1c+p64v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12396

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Doreen Rich wrote:
> <snip>
> This is *exactly* the reason Steve and I and the other lunatic 
purists
> don't read fanfic. We have enough trouble with distinguishing this
> group's well-reasoned conclusions from canon, already.

Yeah, that is a problem sometimes. I read some fanfic, but not HP 
fanfic extensively, because I personally prefer to go reading about 
series that are already completed. I was discussing with my friends 
in another fandom what series are 'ficced more than most, and one of 
the main 'ficcable characteristics was it being "fundamentally 
flawed" in some way. HP right now is "flawed" because it's obviously 
incomplete. There's three more books. I'm wondering, if our theory is 
correct, that the end of the series will actually mean less 'ficcing, 
as canon answers many of our questions that we currently speculate 
about in fanfic. (When I think about fanfic, I think only about the 
relatively advanced authors, as in the folks who post here, not the 
vast majority on ff.net) Actually, I find the existence of a fan 
canon to be very interesting. On some shows whose quality is such 
that I wonder why anyone watches them in the first place, the fan 
canon actually surpasses the real canon. (that sort of fandom may be 
equated to the Rocky Horror Picture Show, in my mind. Just sitting on 
your couch and watching is fundamentally different in some way than 
dressing up in a vinyl outfit, and yelling at the screen)

> 
> Is there an extant term--it can't be "canon," since it's not in the
> books, can it?--for details that JKR has supplied, which are 
therefore
> Right, as distinguished from non-book material from other sources? 
For
> things like Lexicon purposes and such?
<snip>

Hmmm. I'm sure such a term exists, but have no idea what it is. I 
think it should be designated separately from canon, because JKR 
could always change her mind. 

Charmian




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Feb 16 14:47:29 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:47:29 -0000
Subject: FF: Canon, fanon etc. - terminology
Message-ID: <96jei1+sfm6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12397

I'm not sure either what the term would be for facts revealed by JKR 
(or any author) that aren't mentioned in the canon.

I suggest we use 'planon' - because she might say "I plan on 
referring to that at some point" and she plans the story using these 
facts.  Perhaps that is the right term - it seems logical.

If we have no idea where something comes from, I guess it's 'anon'.

Canon, 
Fanon, 
Planon, 
Anon.

Wahey!!  Another poem!

Neil
flying_ford_anglia






From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Feb 16 14:51:03 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 16 Feb 2001 06:51:03 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's changes
Message-ID: <20010216145103.28091.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12398

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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010216/42ea5e5d/attachment.ksh>

From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Feb 16 09:56:39 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:56:39 EST5EDT
Subject: A thought about divination
Message-ID: <16DDA75246@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12399

Hey, Joey....I'm a Christian, too, and I wince when I hear people 
slamming these books in the name of Christianity and stating the 
books are satanic and evil.  But I don't worry about my home 
church....my minister has read all the books and is a big Harry 
Potter fan.  :-)

Rachel



From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Fri Feb 16 15:56:03 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:56:03 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's changes
References: <20010216145103.28091.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c09830$fe5c7c20$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12400




> On Fri, 16 February 2001, "Jeralyn" wrote:
>And it totally struck me how, in the first book, Hagrid was much more
assertive than in the later books.  The argument against this was that Harry
didn't *know* Hagrid yet, and that's the way he saw him.  But I'm not so
sure.  Take some of these examples:
>
> "Budge up, yeh great lump."
> "Ah, shut up, Dursley, yeh great prune."
<snip>

I' ve got a horrible feeling that Hagrid wouldn't be so rude if the Dursleys
were wizards. Sure, he was furious for what they did to Harry, and what
Vernon told about Dumbledore, but - as Jeralyn said - we don't see Hagrid in
a state like this again.

> In the later books, Hagrid doesn't boom, roar, tremble with rage or even
give anyone a dirty look.

Well, can't agree with you here:
- in CoS, Hagrid stormed Dumbledore's office shouting that Harry couldn't
had attacked Justin and Nick, and later told Lucius Malfoy to leave his hut
(I still can't decide if he was really more stupid than brave then)
- in GoF, he actually attacked Karakoff and called him some bad names and
didn't even listen to Dumbledore at first (surprise, surprise)!

>He's so much more mild - heck, he's rather a marshmallow quite often on the
verge of tears.

That's right - with some reservations - I believe he *was* crying after
Norbert in PS/SS, wasn't he?
I'm so much afraid that it was Dursleys' being Muggle that made all that
difference. On the other hand, he did attack Headmaster of Durmstrang - but
then our dear Igor is not what I can call a hero, and perhaps Dumbledore's
presence made some difference. I don't know. But I don't like that idea.

Monika Z.
(The Snape fan)





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 16:23:28 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:23:28 -0000
Subject: FW: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
In-Reply-To: <96i9oc+cp8v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96jk60+e87o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12401


I logged in as instructed with my name, and then when I went to sign 
up for the newsletter or to go to the message center, it asked for my 
password, which I don't have. I requested that my pw be sent to me. It 
hasn't. And of course when I try to register again, my name is now 
taken.

Arrggghhh...

Fine music and graphics though!!

Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:
> > Niiice....anyone who visits, remember to turn your speakers on!
> > 
> > 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> > > Ooh...look what I got!
> > > 
> > > --John
> > > 
> > > From: hogwarts at h...
> > > Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, 13:26:38
> > > To: john at W...
> > > Subject: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
> > > 
> > > Did you Witches, Wizards and Muggles think we forgot about you? 
> > Impossible!
> > > 
> > > To shed light on what we have waiting for you, here's an 
> exclusive 
> > sneak
> > > peek at the official Harry Potter Website where you can enroll 
> and 
> > be sorted
> > > at Hogwarts School, pay a visit to Diagon Alley, send a Howler 
> via 
> > Owlpost
> > > and more. Plus, other amazing features will magically appear 
over 
> > time, so
> > > keep your eyes peeled.
> > > 
> > > Want a look? Just go to http://www.harrypotter.com and enter 
this 
> > top-secret
> > > password when asked: Muggle
> > > 
> > > One more thing: This will be the only communication you receive 
> > unless you
> > > sign up for the official Harry Potter Newsletter in the Platform 
> 9 
> > 3/4 area
> > > online. 
> (http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/platform/index.jsp).
> > > 
> > > Enjoy your preview! The full site and all its spellbinding magic 
> > will be
> > > unveiled to the rest of the world as soon as we're sure it's 
free 
> > of all
> > > curses. So, keep your robes handy! The owls are on their way...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got one too.  However, when I went to sign up for the newsletter, 
I 
> got a page error signal & it wouldn't let me continue.  Hmm.  Has 
> anyone else experienced this problem?  
> 
> 
> Peace & Plenty,
> 
> Parker




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Fri Feb 16 16:36:02 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:36:02 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthY...
Message-ID: <95.6fb6d2f.27beb0f2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12402

In a message dated 2/16/2001 5:40:23 AM Central Standard Time, 
bbennett at joymail.com writes:


> I realize you guys are having fun figuring this all out, but can you 
> imagine what Hermione would think about it? She probably 
> ranks star charting as only slightly more reliable than divination 
> <g>.
> 
> 
While I don't prepare the charts myself, there is a bit of effort involved in 
obtaining them and posting them.  I did so because another list member 
mentioned that it might be fun to see Harry's and Hermione's charts.  If 
you'd rather I didn't do so, I'd appreciate it if you would come out and say 
it so that I don't go to all the effort if we ever find out Ron's or anyone 
elses birthday just to be told Hermione wouldn't approve (with the 
implication that I'd done something silly or wrong).  

If the list members or moderators don't approve, I will certainly not bring 
up astrology or tarot (in regard to HP characters, of course - I never 
intended to go off topic with it) again.


Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 16:37:29 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:37:29 -0000
Subject: Astrology Charts
In-Reply-To: <63.11e05c0e.27bdf9ea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <96jl09+din2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12403

 
Okay, I am stepping into this dialogue late and am still catching up 
on what I missed.

Whose birthdays do we actually know??

Once we have the birthdays, this website will be great for making the 
charts, which we can dowload and then upload into our files section!

http://www.astro.ch/

How does that sound?

--Suzanne

Sun: Taurus
Moon: Pisces
Ascendant: Aries
Venus: Gemini

(All you astrologers out there: what does this combo sound like? I 
also have Pisces in the Twelfth house which I guess makes me moody and 
secretive...)




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 16:37:40 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:37:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting Sirius
Message-ID: <F83r3mbfJ8VrRQvXlao00001022@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12404

James Marsters would make an excellent Sirius.  I have never thought of it 
before; I should have since I am a huge Buffy fan.  There might be a problem 
with crossing two cult followings.  If you ever seen Buffy, you know that 
Mmarsters can make a scary demon guy (season 2) and a fun Evil Fighter 
(season 5).  So he would be great to show the evolution of Harry's opinion 
of Sirius.  However, he would have to die his hair black-brown, and get rid 
of the short bleach job.

Signe


Michelle wrote:

American guys who can do incredible English accents are James Marsters
(Spike on Buffy) and Alexis Denisof (Wesley on Angel). Both of them are
mid-30s, which is right for Marauders according to some sources. <g>
There are still times when I can clearly tell that they are both not
Brits. Although I am aware that AD did train over here,. Sorry, but I
remain a picky Brit who thinks Brits should get first Dibs at Casting
for a change !!
Michelle

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 16 17:00:30 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:00:30 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF:  Canon and fanon (was:  McGonagall's book etc.)
References: <96jc1c+p64v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8D5CAD.C5634C36@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12405

sashibuya at hotmail.com wrote:

> Hmmm. I'm sure such a term exists, but have no idea what it is. I
> think it should be designated separately from canon, because JKR could
> always change her mind.

She could always change her mind anyway. Stuff that she's said on online
chats and in interviews is just as firm as the books, since it's so
immediately in print, saved in text versions, etc. She'd have to do the
same sort of justification to mollify us fans if she altered some
position made outside the books, as she would if she altered something
inside them.

But there should be a category for author-supplied, extra information,
the Straight From the Horse's Mouth stuff that is a cut above even OUR
sterling analysis and conclusions.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Feb 16 17:01:16 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:01:16 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's changes--Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <20010216145103.28091.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <96jmcs+q8j9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12406

voicelady at m... wrote:
>it totally struck me how, in the first book, Hagrid was much more 
>assertive than in the later books.  The argument against this was 
>that Harry didn't *know* Hagrid yet, and that's the way he saw him.  
>But I'm not so sure. <snip>In the later books, Hagrid doesn't boom, 
>roar, tremble with rage or even give anyone a dirty look.  He's so 
>much more mild - heck, he's rather a marshmallow quite often on the 
>verge of tears."

I think spending time in Azkaban mellowed Hagrid out somewhat. I 
don't think Hagrid told Harry the finer details about his 
imprisonment because they were too horrible to relive particularly 
since Hagrid has a gentle soul. 

:-)Milz




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Fri Feb 16 17:03:39 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 16 Feb 2001 17:03:39 -0000
Subject: Poll results for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <982343019.2709.59841.sb@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12407


The following HPforGrownups poll is now closed.  Here are the 
final results: 


POLL QUESTION: Do you think "Death Eaters" is a good 
choice of name for the bad guys? 

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Death Eaters is a great name. Just hearing it scares the *%* #t* out of me, 16 votes, 42.11%  
- Death Eaters just makes me laugh! Sounds like little boys trying very hard to sound bad, 13 votes, 34.21%  
- I dont really care, just as long as they dont start going on any more killing rampages again, 9 votes, 23.68%  



For more information about this group, please visit 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups 

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

 







From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Feb 16 17:14:58 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:14:58 -0000
Subject: FW: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...
In-Reply-To: <96jk60+e87o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96jn6i+o65o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12408

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> 
> I logged in as instructed with my name, and then when I went to 
sign 
> up for the newsletter or to go to the message center, it asked for 
my 
> password, which I don't have. I requested that my pw be sent to me. 
It 
> hasn't. And of course when I try to register again, my name is now 
> taken.
> 
> Arrggghhh...
> 
> Fine music and graphics though!!
> 
> Suzanne
> 
> 
> !
> > > Here's what I did (got an e-mail this morning confirming my 
screen name, so everything is OK with that).  Set your screen name 
(you may have to try more than once--I did).  Provide your own 
password (a hobby, the name of your dog...whatever is easy to 
remember).  That will take you on to the registration page.  I got an 
error message last night, but this morning, I did get an e-mail 
confirming my screen name & it let me go into the message boards.  
Hope this helps.

Peace & Plenty,

Parker 
> > > 
> > > 




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Fri Feb 16 17:13:30 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:13:30 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gerbils (OT? was Moody 'n' Draco)
References: <96i4jm+av0i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <020101c0983b$caa3d1c0$767c06d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12409

> Okay, Dinah, I give up.  I have searched the site (and am now
> convinced that God is a gerbil) but have found nothing related to
> Moody or Draco, furry or otherwise.  Please advise.

Eeeep. I advise myself to be more specific. *sheepish smile* Actually, it
was just the gerbil. Yes, I know, gerbils are very different animals than
ferrets. I just guess I should have sent it to the ChatterList. Sorry.

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Feb 16 17:15:34 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:15:34 -0000
Subject: Casting Sirius
In-Reply-To: <F83r3mbfJ8VrRQvXlao00001022@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96jn7m+ildm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12410

"Signe Cluiss"  wrote:
> James Marsters would make an excellent Sirius.  I have never 
thought of it 
> before; I should have since I am a huge Buffy fan.  There might be 
a problem 
> with crossing two cult followings.  If you ever seen Buffy, you 
know that 
> Mmarsters can make a scary demon guy (season 2) and a fun Evil 
Fighter 
> (season 5).  So he would be great to show the evolution of Harry's 
opinion 
> of Sirius.  However, he would have to die his hair black-brown, and 
get rid 
> of the short bleach job.
> 
> Signe

He's a little too young; however, he might be okay as Barty Crouch Jr.
If it's anyone on Buffy who'll be decent in a Harry Potter movie it 
would be Anthony Stewart Head (Giles) IMO.

But I'm skeptical of casting Americans in a film that is set in the 
UK with UK characters. British actors and actresses are very good and 
under-appreciated in the US. 

:-)Milz




From sadie_row at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 17:20:39 2001
From: sadie_row at hotmail.com (sadie_row at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:20:39 -0000
Subject: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthY...
In-Reply-To: <95.6fb6d2f.27beb0f2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <96jnh7+m8u7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12411

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/16/2001 5:40:23 AM Central Standard Time, 
> bbennett at j... writes:
> 
> 
> > I realize you guys are having fun figuring this all out, but can 
you 
> > imagine what Hermione would think about it? She probably 
> > ranks star charting as only slightly more reliable than 
divination 
> > <g>.
> > 
> > 
>   If 
> you'd rather I didn't do so, I'd appreciate it if you would come 
out and say 
> it so that I don't go to all the effort if we ever find out Ron's 
or anyone 
> elses birthday just to be told Hermione wouldn't approve (with the 
> implication that I'd done something silly or wrong).  
> 

Well, Hermione probably wouldn't approve. But Lavendar and Pavarti 
are behind you 100%. :)

I'm teasing, I'm teasing! 
> > 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 17:20:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:20:44 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's changes
In-Reply-To: <20010216145103.28091.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <96jnhc+4l9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12412

Jeralyn wrote:

> I could go on citing more examples, but you probably get the 
>picture now.  In the later books, Hagrid doesn't boom, roar, tremble 
>with rage or even give anyone a dirty look.  

Maybe he never does these things to anyone but the Dursleys?

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------
"I thought it sounded a bit like Percy 
singing.  Maybe you've got to attack him 
while he's in the shower, Harry."
            --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------




From nykteris at polbox.com  Fri Feb 16 17:24:46 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:24:46 +0100
Subject: Peter vs. Sirius once again 
Message-ID: <001501c0983d$777a3aa0$a9604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 12413

Hi! 

If it is possible (and easy!) to discover the last spell the wand performed, why isn't this procedure widely applied - also in Black's case? 
 
Katarzyna 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rina at love-productions.com  Fri Feb 16 17:23:57 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:23:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting Sirius
Message-ID: <003b01c0983d$3e75abe0$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12414

Signe wrote:

<<So he would be great to show the evolution of Harry's opinion 
of Sirius.  However, he would have to die his hair black-brown, and get rid of the short bleach job.>>

Well, that is his natural color, so it shouldn't be too hard to go back. <g> 

Milz wrote:

<<He's a little too young; however, he might be okay as Barty Crouch Jr. If it's anyone on Buffy who'll be decent in a Harry Potter movie it would be Anthony Stewart Head (Giles) IMO.>>

Well, I said he was the right age according to some sources. <g> I still just can't see the Marauders as being in their 50s, no matter how awesome the Snape casting is. I still envision Lupin and Sirius to be in their mid-late 30s in book 4, which is only about 5 years older than James now. But I agree, Tony Head would be good - I could see him as Lupin very easily. A little older than what I picture, but they did say Lupin looked older. <shrug>

<<But I'm skeptical of casting Americans in a film that is set in the 
UK with UK characters. British actors and actresses are very good and 
under-appreciated in the US. >>

Are you refering to James again here? <g> Because Tony *is British. LOL So there wouldn't be any problem with the all-Brit casting in his case.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 17:26:31 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:26:31 -0000
Subject: Casting - Hugh Laurie
In-Reply-To: <000001c097f1$6947ce80$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <96jns7+ie9r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12415

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Zaboklicka" 
<monika.zaboklicka at c...> wrote:

> And one more thing - Arthur Weasley doesn't do much in CoS, he's 
more
> important in GoF. I'm afraid the moviemakers may leave this 
character out of
> the second movie. But no, they can't do this, they can't....
> 

I think they'll definitely have him in CoS.  Remember, if it weren't 
for their err.... conversation, Lucius Malfoy wouldn't have gotten the 
chance to put Riddle's Diary in with Ginny's things.  And there's no 
way they'll leave him out of CoS because that's the book where he says 
his famous line about not trusting something that can think for itself 
if you can't see where it keeps its brain.  They just *can't* leave 
that out - one of the best nuggets of wisdom in the books!




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Feb 16 17:33:51 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:33:51 -0000
Subject: Pop of the Weaslys (filk)
Message-ID: <96jo9v+j9n4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12416

He supports a very large family
On a salary quite measly
Works in the Magic Ministry
Pop of the Weasleys!

When Lucius Malfoy mocked at him
Arthur punched out that sleaze, he 
Made that Death-Eater's head swim
Pop of the Weasleys!

And with respect to flying Fords
He has much expertise, he's
Pleased to welcome Muggles aboard
Pop of the Weasleys!

At the Burrow there is Molly
Fred & George who want a joke shop
There's good ol' Ron and young Ginny
Who all love their dear pop!

   - CMC




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 17:38:36 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:38:36 -0000
Subject: Draco's Birthdate
Message-ID: <96jois+k9fe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12417

What do you guys think Draco's birthday is then? I thought he was a 
Cancer or a Scorpio... he seems to fit both descriptions. But I 
thought he'd be older than Harry...

- Celeste Chang




From bbennett at joymail.com  Fri Feb 16 17:41:33 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:41:33 -0000
Subject: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthY...
In-Reply-To: <96jnh7+m8u7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96jood+to16@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12418

> bbennett at j... writes:

 
> > I realize you guys are having fun figuring this all out, but can 
you imagine what Hermione would think about it? She probably ranks 
star charting as only slightly more reliable than divination 
<g>.
> > 
Elizabeth wrote:  
> While I don't prepare the charts myself, there is a bit of effort 
involved in obtaining them and posting them.  I did so because 
another list member mentioned that it might be fun to see Harry's and 
Hermione's charts.  If you'd rather I didn't do so, I'd appreciate it 
if you would come out and say it so that I don't go to all the effort 
if we ever find out Ron's or anyone elses birthday just to be told 
Hermione wouldn't approve (with the implication that I'd done 
something silly or wrong).  
> 
> If the list members or moderators don't approve, I will certainly 
not bring up astrology or tarot (in regard to HP characters, of 
course - I never intended to go off topic with it) again.

> Love & Light,
> *Elizabeth*
> ~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~

Elizabeth, I'm sorry I have upset you!  Of course I understand 
this takes work on your part to put the data together, and from the 
many responses asking you to continue, it's obvious your efforts are 
appreciated. I've enjoyed reading the posts myself, and as I was 
looking through the last one it hit me that Hermione would likely 
find it amusing - that's what I meant by my post, and nothing
more. 

If I worded my post in such a way as to make you think my intent 
was to insult or belittle, then please accept my apology.  One of 
the things I enjoy the most about this list is the open exchange of 
ideas, and the last thing I would ever do is suggest it's silly
or wrong of anyone to post anything. 

Very Sincerely,
B.





From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Fri Feb 16 14:33:13 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:33:13 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's changes
References: <96j71k+nut0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c0983f$89076a20$a554063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12419

All will be set forth when I set out my character summary on Monday. can
this wait until then ?

pretty pleeease !!!

Michelle




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Feb 16 17:57:20 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:57:20 -0000
Subject: FF:  Canon and fanon (was:  McGonagall's book etc.)
In-Reply-To: <3A8D5CAD.C5634C36@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96jpm0+hi34@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12420

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> sashibuya at h... wrote:
> 
> > Hmmm. I'm sure such a term exists, but have no idea what it is. I
> > think it should be designated separately from canon, because JKR 
could
> > always change her mind.
> 
> She could always change her mind anyway. Stuff that she's said on 
online
> chats and in interviews is just as firm as the books, since it's so
> immediately in print, saved in text versions, etc. She'd have to do 
the
> same sort of justification to mollify us fans if she altered some
> position made outside the books, as she would if she altered 
something
> inside them.
> 
> But there should be a category for author-supplied, extra 
information,

What about Rowlingisms? 

Does this mean that I am forgiven, Amanda? :)






> the Straight From the Horse's Mouth stuff that is a cut above even 
OUR
> sterling analysis and conclusions.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Feb 16 18:00:07 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:00:07 -0000
Subject: Remembering details, was Re: Help! McGonagall's book...
In-Reply-To: <3A8D20D5.847DBCD4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96jpr7+onkr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12421

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Doreen Rich wrote:
> 
> > I am so so so so sorry! Yes, that is exactly where I read that. 
And it
> > is so frustrating to realize that it was not from one of the 
books,
> > but rather from something I read on the internet [snip]
> 
> This is *exactly* the reason Steve and I and the other lunatic 
purists
> don't read fanfic. We have enough trouble with distinguishing this
> group's well-reasoned conclusions from canon, already.
> 

Speaking as one of the lunatic purists who doesnt read fanfic, I have 
found that even without the fan ficI manage to remember details that 
dont seem to exist.  For example, I am (well, was) convinced that 
somewhere in the HP books is a reference to another newspaper, The 
Evening Prophet.  However, when I looked thru all 4 books for it I 
couldnt find it.  Am I imagining things?  Is it something I read on 
this group?  Am I insane? (dont answer that question, please).

--Joywitch




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 18:02:32 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:02:32 -0000
Subject: A thought about divination
In-Reply-To: <16DDA75246@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <96jpvo+bbr9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12422

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> Hey, Joey....I'm a Christian, too, and I wince when I hear people 
> slamming these books in the name of Christianity and stating the 
> books are satanic and evil.  But I don't worry about my home 
> church....my minister has read all the books and is a big Harry 
> Potter fan.  :-)
> 
> Rachel

Rachel,

I'm like you.  I was at a Bible study the other night and one of the 
ladies was drinking coffee out of an HP mug, so we started talking 
about it.  Just about everyone had read and loved the books, including 
our and his wife and two sons, and one of the elders of the church.  
The other had been meaning to buy a copy of book 1 anyway, and was 
convinced by our raving.  We discussed what great lessons there are to 
be learned in HP, and how sad it is that so many people are missing 
out on those lessons because of their tunnel-vision.  I wonder if 
there's a Christians Against Censorship group or something?  Not quite 
as catchy as SPEW, but I'd wear that badge!

Kimberly




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Feb 16 13:02:33 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:02:33 EST5EDT
Subject: hmmm...Richard Harris seems..
Message-ID: <19F6E058BB@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12423

grouchy.  The interview on Empire Online makes him sound like a 
crotchety old man.  Any thoughts on that?  Has anyone else read 
an interview with him and he's this grumpy/unexcited about Harry 
Potter?  At least he praised Daniel.

http://www.empireonline.co.uk/news/news.asp?2939

Rachel



From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 16 18:11:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:11:36 -0600
Subject: OT--Christians for Harry Potter
References: <96jpvo+bbr9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8D6D57.8EBE5A72@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12424

Kimberly wrote:

>  I wonder if there's a Christians Against Censorship group or
> something?  Not quite as catchy as SPEW, but I'd wear that badge!

Lessee. Howzabout Christians Against Censorship, Klans, Lunatics, &
Extremism (CACKLE)? Best I could do off the top of my head. Caius?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 16 18:15:03 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:15:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] hmmm...Richard Harris seems..
References: <19F6E058BB@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <3A8D6E26.9D147A99@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12425

Rachel Bray wrote:

> grouchy.  The interview on Empire Online makes him sound like a
> crotchety old man.  Any thoughts on that?

Well, it could be that he IS a crochety old man, y'know. Tooold you they
should have gone for Peter O'Toole (a fruit loop, true, but much more
fun).

--Amanda
first time I've broken your posting rules in a bit, I've been good, back
off, I've got a wand....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Fri Feb 16 18:15:28 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:15:28 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthY...
Message-ID: <10.8dbe1df.27bec840@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12426

Thank you, B.  I am a little skittish when it comes to posting anything about 
divination or astrology to any list, as I know some people are distressed or 
offended by the subject, even if it's posted in fun.  I'm not so much upset 
as I am wanting to avoid going to the effort if this is something most people 
don't care for.

Thanks again.  

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 18:20:31 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:20:31 -0000
Subject: SHIP: D/H Ship Chart (using July 16, 1980 as Draco's birthdate)
Message-ID: <96jr1f+jnfl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12427

I used July 16, 1980 for Draco's birthdate and September 19, 1980 for 
Hermione's birthdate. I am of the belief that Draco is a Cancer. 
Though I might have to look at Scorpio for him as well...

Draco's Sun in Cancer and Hermione's Sun in Virgo:

Both of you are inclined to mood changes that, at times, can irritate 
each other. For example, Draco experiences
periods of melancholy, tenderness, concern, worry, nostalgia and 
sentimentality, which Hermione may not
understand or sympathize with. Hermione can suddenly become irritated 
and irascible over minor annoyances, and
at such times, is capable of intense sarcasm and criticism, which can 
be extremely disconcerting to Draco's tender,
sensitive feelings. Hermione must be prudent, and Draco must strive to 
be forgiving when things go a little awry.
However, you are both capable of enormous devotion to one another (and 
to your children if you have them), and
taking care of one another comes naturally to you. 

Draco's Moon in Virgo and Hermione's Moon in Capricorn:

You understand one another very well, for you have very similar 
temperaments, and your responses to people and
to situations are quite similar. Both of you are practical and 
hard-working, with a strong need to be useful and
productive, and to accomplish something concrete. Work, 
responsibilities, or business come before pleasure and
play for both of you, and you may neglect your emotional needs. You 
downplay feelings and desires that seem
childish or unrealistic. 

Both of you have a strong need for material security, and very much 
prefer a safe, logical, and well-defined path,
rather than taking risks. 

You are responsible in your dealings with others. In fact, you share a 
tendency to be overly conscientious, to expect
too much from yourselves, and to be far too harsh with yourselves at 
times. 

Faithfulness and constancy in love and friendship are very important 
to you both, and you naturally feel very
comfortable together, knowing you can trust one another to be 
reliable. 

Sometimes your relationship may become dry - all work and no play. You 
both need to relax more, and to pay more
attention to your fun-loving, emotional side. 

Draco's Sun Opposite Hermione's Moon:

The two of you are attracted to each other in a magnetic, almost 
fated, kind of way. If you aren't married yet, there
is a high probability that some day you will be! The two of you are 
drawn to each other even though, in some ways,
you have opposite personalities. 

Draco's Sun Trine Hermione's Uranus:

Playfulness and a zest for newness infuse your relationship. You 
really spark each other's imagination and
creativity. This quality is especially welcome in a long-term 
relationship because you will not fall into a lifeless
routine. You spur each other to explore, take risks, and develop new 
creative outlets. You encourage each other's
independence. There is an electric, spontaneous quality between you , 
and your sexual relationship is lively and
exciting as well. 

Hermione's Sun Conjunct Draco's Moon:

If the two of you are not married, there is a high probability that 
you will marry some day! You have a natural
affinity for each other, feel very comfortable together, and can 
experience a very nourishing and intimate
closeness. Even if your personalities are very different, you 
understand each other very well and you are truly
friends as well as lovers. If you have children, you will work well 
together as parents and Draco, in particular, will
prove (perhaps to a surprising degree) very devoted to the family. 
Draco also helps, supports, and accepts
Hermione, who gains much confidence and energy when the two of you are 
together. There is a deep, mutual
appreciation of each other. 

Hermione's Sun Conjunct Draco's Mars:

Your relationship is a stimulating, energizing, dynamic one. You 
inspire each other to be very active in both work
and play, and to accomplish a great deal. You enjoy challenging each 
other and probably enjoy competing with each
other in games. Sexual attraction to each other is very strong as 
well. The only negative tendency is to possibly
develop a rivalry with each other; this is especially possible if 
Draco comes on too forcefully, directly and
aggressively, hurting Hermione's feelings or pride. 

Hermione's Sun Conjunct Draco's Saturn:

One strong factor that attracted you to each other (perhaps 
unconsciously) is the feeling that you can have a deep,
stable, permanent relationship and settle down together, facing life's 
responsibilities in a mature way, tackling
challenges together such as raising children, becoming financially 
secure, etc. These concerns can gradually cause
your relationship to become too absorbed with "serious" matters, 
causing both of you to feel limited and stifled by
the relationship. Draco has a strong tendency to criticize and judge 
Hermione's actions, sometimes accurately and
sometimes unjustly. Draco should guard against this tendency to dampen 
Hermione's enthusiasm, and Hermione
needs to avoid being overly sensitive to Draco's suggestions and 
criticisms. Draco's tendency to dominate, control,
or even repress Hermione makes Hermione feel resentful at times, and 
Hermione may feel lowered vitality and
self-confidence after being with Draco for a long time. You must make 
room for lightness and play, or you both will
feel burdened by the tone that is set between you. 

Draco's Moon Conjunct Hermione's Jupiter:

You both really enjoy each other's company. You put each other in a 
good mood and an optimistic, friendly, jovial
atmosphere develops when you get together. You may have been friends 
for some time before you became lovers.
You are a very likeable couple and, as a couple, you are very sociable 
, hospitable, and expansive. Your bring out
the generous side of one another, and are very nurturing and 
protective towards each other. 

Draco's Moon Square Hermione's Neptune:

You spark each other's imagination and fantasies, but the tendency to 
deceive each other is also very strong. You
fascinate and intrigue each other, clouding your vision and causing 
you to often misunderstand each other. For
example, you tend to project fantasies and hopes on each other - this 
is not necessarily bad because these fantasies
can become a rich source for imaginative, inspiring works of art or 
music. Do not rush into a serious relationship
too quickly, though, because you need time to make sure that you 
haven't got caught up in a romantic, idealistic
vision of each other, from which you will later wake. If either of you 
has a major problem of a psychological,
alcohol-related, or drug-related nature, this relationship can become 
a partnership in dissolute, self-destructive,
negative habits. 

Hermione's Moon Trine Draco's Saturn:

There is a mature, stable, responsible tone to your relationship that 
makes you feel secure with each other. There
is a great deal of trust and respect for each other. As you spend more 
time together, you will find that your tastes,
priorities, and sense of what is really important in life becomes very 
compatible. If you marry and have children,
you will work together well as parents, especially when difficulties 
and "minor crises" arise. 

Hermione's Mercury Square Draco's Mercury:

You approach problems and solve mental problems in very different 
ways, and this tends to be a source of friction
in your relationship. For example, one of you may feel that the other 
depends too much on intuition rather than
logic, or makes decisions too impulsively, or focuses too narrowly, 
etc. These differences tend to be very irritating
to each other, so try to be very tolerant of each other. Sometimes you 
will simply not be able to work together on a
problem; you will need to sometimes work independently of each other 
to "stay out of each other's hair". 

Draco's Mercury Trine Hermione's Mars:

You inspire each other to refine and clarify your ideas, plans and 
strategies. You are an effective team in research,
writing, or business pursuits. You also help each other to 
successfully implement a plan or follow through on an idea
until it manifests as a successful product or creative work. You also 
have spririted, fiesty debates with one another. 

Hermione's Mercury Trine Draco's Venus:

You love to discuss the arts, literature, culture, or any other area 
that involves a strong aesthetic or emotional
element. You are also likely to work successfully together in 
artistic, literary, or some humanitarian area. Your
strong friendship and admiration for each other fosters a lasting, 
harmonious partnership. 

Hermione's Mercury Conjunct Draco's Pluto:

Your conversations tend to be probing and deep. You enjoy uncovering 
the underlying motivations and causes of a
situation. Frequently what starts out as a light, friendly 
conversation ends up as an in-depth psychoanalysis of each
other! Draco may dominate your conversations and at times tries to 
force Hermione into agreeing or believing
whatever Draco wants! 

Draco's Venus Opposite Hermione's Neptune:

You arouse unusual, perhaps strange, feelings and yearnings in each 
other. You evoke feelings of sympathy,
compassion, a sensitivity to music and poetry, dreamy romanticism, and 
perhaps even religious fervor. The
dreamy, idealistic feelings that you stimulate in each other makes it 
nearly impossible for you to see each other in a
realistic, objective light but this is not likely to bother either of 
you - your idealized dreamy love for each other is
much more fun than realism! Recognize, however, that your partner does 
indeed have clay feet and do not expect
Perfect Love from this relationship, or you will be sadly 
disillusioned. 

Draco's Venus Trine Hermione's Pluto:

The romantic love and sexual attraction for each other is very 
compelling and deep. You wield a powerful,
charismatic influence on each other and your love affair is a powerful 
one. This could be one of the most fulfilling,
all-consuming relationships of your life! 

Draco's Mars Conjunct Hermione's Jupiter:

You spark each other's ambitions and enterprising spirit, and you 
enjoy planning and designing ventures. You are
able to jointly follow through to successful completion of your goals. 
Hermione gives Draco confidence and
encouragement to charge ahead, while Draco stimulates Hermione to act 
decisively to actualize Hermione's
dreams. You are likely to undertake several joint ventures as well as 
other individual efforts that are greatly
assisted by your partner. Occasionally you take foolhardy risks and 
are overly zealous and unrealistic in your
hopes, but your dynamic blending of energies can also result in 
outstanding accomplishments as well. 

Draco's Mars Conjunct Hermione's Saturn:

The two of you are able to perform detailed tasks together, and really 
buckle down to a task at hand and
successfully complete any task that you collaborate on. However, there 
may be too much caution and restraint
when good opportunities arise. You are hesitant to take risks 
together. Hermione is inclined to doubt Draco's
ability to succeed in any kind of risky or speculative endeavor and 
consequently often suggests a conservative
approach to achieving goals. In some cases, this caution is 
unwarranted and very frustrating to Draco, but at other
times Hermione provides a realistic, clear, focused perspective on how 
Draco can achieve goals. 

On another level, Hermione may suppress Draco's natural desires, 
drives, and physical energy level, which can
leave Draco feeling drained and resentful. Beware of holding in anger 
and irritation with one another for it can
slowly poison your relationship. 

Hermione's Mars Conjunct Draco's Uranus:

You feel energized and get into a dynamic, sometimes impatient and 
reckless mood together. You enjoy engaging in
exciting or daring activities together. You get impatient with each 
other and can easily get into lots of arguments
and feelings of irritation and annoyance with each other. If you find 
each other at all physically attractive, then your
sexual responsiveness to each other is very direct and even aggressive 
at times. 

Hermione's Jupiter Conjunct Draco's Saturn:

Draco is often a damper on Hermione's exuberance, enthusiasm, and need 
to play and explore uncharted territory.
Hermione often experiences Draco as heavy, judgmental, or overly 
cautious, and Draco should be careful not to
become too critical, or Hermione will begin to feel inhibited and 
trapped in the relationship. Positively, the two of
you can complement and work well together, with Hermione providing the 
optimism, vision, ideas and plans, and
Draco lending a steadying hand and adding realism and practicality to 
your combined efforts. Draco has a
stabilizing effect on Hermione's life, and Hermione can inspire and 
help Draco overcome fears, narrowness, and
inner inhibitions. 

Hermione's Jupiter Sextile Draco's Uranus:

You encourage one another to be free, to loosen up and let go, and 
there is a lively, exuberant playfulness between
you. You will have a lot of fun and adventures together! By following 
your intuition and spontaneous impulses, you
are likely to be unusually lucky together also. 

Hermione's Jupiter Square Draco's Neptune:

You stimulate one another's expansive, restless, imaginative, 
idealistic, and impractical sides. You inspire one
another, but there's a fine line between being optimistic and being 
foolhardy, and together you tend to overestimate
what you can really do, to be blinded by an overly hopeful or 
grandiose sense of what is possible. 

Draco, in particular, should avoid exaggerating, misrepresenting, or 
subtly misleading Hermione, or encouraging
Hermione to be irresponsible. 

Traveling, vacationing, gambling and other "escapist" activities are 
things you are inclined to do together. 

If you are inclined toward spirituality or mysticism, this aspect of 
yourselves will be emphasized by being together,
along with a tendency to become rather unbalanced, overly idealistic, 
or ungrounded in your approach. 

Hermione's Saturn Conjunct Draco's Saturn:

You have similar fears, insecurities, or weaknesses and it is 
difficult for you to get an objective perspective on
yourself in this relationship, since you both have the same 
limitations or Achilles heel. 

You are often very uncomfortable when your partner displays weaknesses 
and difficulties for they make you see
your own unresolved problems in the very same area. 

However, you do understand one another's struggles, and can offer one 
another a sense of solidarity and a safe
haven in which to deal with the darker or more problematic aspects of 
your lives. 

Draco's Saturn Sextile Hermione's Uranus:

Draco stabilizes and helps Hermione give concrete form to Hermione's 
original ideas and impulses. Working as a
team, Draco provides the practical experience and caution, and 
Hermione inspires and generates new ideas, often
with very successful results. The two of you strike a good balance 
between order and chaos, the tried-and-true and
the wild-and-crazy. 

Draco's Saturn Square Hermione's Neptune:

Serious confusion and misunderstandings arise in your relationship, 
which both of you contribute to in different
ways. There are conflicts over material versus spiritual values, 
practicality, common sense, and realism versus
idealism or imagination, with Draco being the down-to-earth, 
responsible hard-headed one and Hermione being the
sensitive, idealistic, dreamy partner. Hermione seems frustratingly 
evasive, vague, or irresponsible to Draco, and
Draco's criticism can cause Hermione heavy self-doubt or a desire to 
protect and hide Hermione's sensitivities.
There can be much mutual deception. At best, Draco confronts Hermione 
with Hermione's tendency to avoid or
escape reality and Hermione can open Draco's mind to wider realities, 
emotional or intuitive truth (as opposed to
"hard facts") and a more fluid approach to life. 

Draco's Neptune Sextile Hermione's Pluto:

Your spiritual values and strengths harmonize with one another and 
this is a subtle but positive force in your
relationship. 

Hermione's Neptune Sextile Draco's Pluto:

Your spiritual values and strengths harmonize with one another and 
this is a subtle but positive force in your
relationship. 

Both Draco & Hermione have soft aspects of Neptune & Pluto

You share an interest in paranormal experiences, mysticism, and the 
farther reaches of human consciousness.
Exploring these mysteries together could be quite fruitful for the two 
of you. 

Sun Conjunct Mercury: 

Yours is an intellectual relationship, among other things. Exchanging 
thoughts, studying together, sharing
information, talking and bantering, turning one another on to new 
books or ideas, sparking one another's curiosity
and interest in the world all of these are important aspects of your 
relationship. A certain detachment and the
ability to think about and talk about what is going on between you are 
also highlighted. Put simply, becoming more
conscious or more informed and educated is a significant reason the 
two of you are drawn together. 

Sun Sextile Mars: 

Together you will be inspired to take action and do things that you 
may not have had the courage or confidence to
do as single individuals. You help one another come out into the 
world, to participate more fully and more boldly.
Whatever you do together as a team is infused with a sense of energy 
and vital purpose, and you can get a lot done.
Physical activities, sports or outdoor adventures, for instance, are a 
key part of the health of your relationship. 

Moon Conjunct Uranus: 

You are destined to have an unpredictable, untraditional and rather 
unstable emotional connection. It may seem
odd to many people even to yourselves that you are together. As a 
couple, you seem to break all the rules and
stereotypes of how a twosome should behave. Your living situation may 
be unconventional or atypical in some way,
or you may constantly uproot yourselves, or your plans for a peaceful, 
settled, "normal" life together may never
work out. 

Excitement, experimentation, and a radical departure from old ways of 
life characterize your bond. One of the
purposes of the two of you being together is to challenge all of the 
old patterns and conditioning you both carry.
While disturbing at times, this can also be very liberating. Emotional 
freedom is a lot of what this relationship is
about. 

Mercury Semisquare Venus: 

A shared sense of style, elegance, and aesthetics is destined to be a 
focus with the two of you. Discussions about
art, love and romance, or what each of you finds beautiful are 
definitely part of this. 

Also, the two of you are able to tell one another of your affection 
for one another, to express those feelings verbally
or in writing. Small, considerate expressions of caring (as well as 
tactful, somewhat sugarcoated expressions of
disagreement when that is appropriate) add much felicity to your 
relationship. You tend to either avoid "heavy"
subjects, or are able to talk about them in a friendly, amicable 
manner. 

Venus Sextile Jupiter: 

Many benefits and opportunities will come into your lives via your 
relationship with each other. As a couple, you
are "lucky". That is, you seem to be in the right place at the right 
time to take advantage of the good things that
come your way. Both emotionally and materially, you will be 
comfortable and successful together. A certain
generosity and good will toward one another ameliorates any of the 
more difficult challenges you may confront.
Affectionate play, happiness with friends, and a lot of laughter will 
bring you close and help to keep you together. 

Mars Conjunct Pluto: 

The two of you are an extremely potent force, and together you can 
effect enormous change (for good or ill) in your
own and others' lives. Trying to force change in a willful, dominating 
manner or in a fanatical, intolerant way, can be
very damaging, yet the drive generated between the two of you is so 
strong that this is definitely a potential to
beware of. If either of you wills the other to improve or wishes to 
fundamentally alter the other's nature, furious
battles will be waged between you. 

There is an extremely competitive energy between you, and even if you 
have believed yourselves to be mild,
nonaggressive people, this drive to be first and to triumph will be 
powerfully active with you. If you join forces to
accomplish a task, nothing will stop you. If you compete solely with 
each other, someone is likely to get hurt badly.
These are issues that will inevitably be faced at some time in your 
relationship. 

Jupiter Conjunct Saturn: 

Your growth and development as a couple is destined to happen 
gradually. The longer you are together the greater
the "pay off" for both of you. Time is on your side. 

Any joint business or projects you undertake together will succeed if 
you are steady, patient, and prudent, but
schemes which promise great rewards with little effort will fail. 
Don't anticipate overnight success or instant
gratification; these too will disappoint you. Taking small steps 
toward your shared goals, and keeping at it, is the
only way to success for you at least in practical terms. 

Neptune Sextile Pluto: 

Mysticism, supernatural experiences, psychic communication, or 
interests of an inner or esoteric nature will play a
significant role in your relationship. There may be an unusual shared 
interest in secret things, mysteries,
uncovering things which have been hidden. Your "psychic radar" and esp 
are heightened, too, through your
relationship and the "far out" things you pursue together. 


Copyright (c) 2000 Astrology 3D, Inc. 




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 18:24:35 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:24:35 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Chart / Ron's B-day
In-Reply-To: <96jr1f+jnfl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96jr93+ibkk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12428

A. Do we have any idea when Ron's Birthday is? I would hazard a guess 
at Leo, but you guys know more than I about what JK may have said.

B. if so, can we have a Hermione/Ron chart?

Heather M.




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 18:47:15 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:47:15 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's changes
In-Reply-To: <000c01c09830$fe5c7c20$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <96jsjj+db29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12429

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Zaboklicka" 
<monika.zaboklicka at c...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Fri, 16 February 2001, "Jeralyn" wrote:
> >And it totally struck me how, in the first book, Hagrid was much 
more
> assertive than in the later books.  The argument against this was 
that Harry
> didn't *know* Hagrid yet, and that's the way he saw him.  But I'm 
not so
> sure.  Take some of these examples:
> >
> > "Budge up, yeh great lump."
> > "Ah, shut up, Dursley, yeh great prune."
> <snip>
> 
Monika wrote:
> I' ve got a horrible feeling that Hagrid wouldn't be so rude if the 
Dursleys
> were wizards. 

No no no no no (I'm covering my ears and humming the ABCs so as not to 
hear such a thing)!
To paraphrase Gred and Forge - he didn't yell at them because they 
were muggles - he yelled at them because they were great, bullying 
gits!  

>Sure, he was furious for what they did to Harry, and 
>what
> Vernon told about Dumbledore, but - as Jeralyn said - we don't see 
>Hagrid in
> a state like this again.

Any time anyone says anything against Dumbledore, Hagrid at least 
approaches this level of ferocity.  I wish I had the books handy to 
back me up, but I'm sure of it, and your examples below show it to 
some extent.


> - in CoS, Hagrid stormed Dumbledore's office shouting that Harry 
couldn't
> had attacked Justin and Nick, and later told Lucius Malfoy to leave 
his hut
> (I still can't decide if he was really more stupid than brave then)
> - in GoF, he actually attacked Karakoff and called him some bad 
names and
> didn't even listen to Dumbledore at first (surprise, surprise)!
> 
> >He's so much more mild - heck, he's rather a marshmallow quite 
often on the
> verge of tears.
> 
> That's right - with some reservations - I believe he *was* crying 
after
> Norbert in PS/SS, wasn't he?

He's nothing if not an old softy - Hagrid's a giant teddybear most of 
the time, and he *does* go misty fairly often.  I don't think that 
rules out that he can also be rather fierce when he's pushed far 
enough.  

> I'm so much afraid that it was Dursleys' being Muggle that made all 
that
> difference. On the other hand, he did attack Headmaster of 
Durmstrang - but
> then our dear Igor is not what I can call a hero, and perhaps 
Dumbledore's
> presence made some difference. I don't know. But I don't like that 
idea.
> 

I just think it takes a lot to provoke Hagrid.  Growing up a 
half-giant, if he went into a rage every time he got upset, he'd have 
squashed all the other kids without even realizing.  He has to have 
some control over his anger.  I'd say there are very few things that 
really enrage Hagrid, and in every case they involve his desire to 
protect or defend those he really cares about.  As far as I can tell, 
Dumbledore and Harry are the two he has that bond with more than 
anyone else.  We know more or less why with Dumbledore, but with 
Harry, the reason why I think is significant to why you see his 
anger in PS/SS so strongly.  
-Hagrid knew James and Lily fairly well, and by all accounts was very 
fond of them.
-Hagrid was, himself, the one who rescued Harry as a baby from the 
wreckage of his family home, and presumably saw the devastation, and 
the bodies of his friends and the child's parents.  He had already 
grown attached to Harry by the time they had to give him up to the 
Dursleys.
-They left Harry in the Dursleys care, trusting them with this child 
who was not only very important to their world, but was also special 
to him personally.  
-Hagrid *knows* that Dumbledore left a letter explaining the 
circumstances and instructing them what to tell Harry as he gets 
older.

Flash forward to the hut on the rock, and consider that Hagrid has 
been trying to get the letter to Harry for days.  He has sent them 
every which way, even rolled up inside of the eggs, and has tracked 
the Dursleys all over creation.  He finally comes face-to-face with 
them by crossing a chunk of sea in a storm, and finds out that they 
have a. been mistreating Harry, b. been keeping the truth from him and 
c. belittled Harry's parents and his nature to him his whole life.  
Add to that the fact that they consider Harry and Hagrid both to be 
basically monsters, that Vernon's holding a gun on him (which isn't 
likely to be any real danger to Hagrid, but can't be taken as a 
friendly gesture), that they insist Harry can't go to Hogwarts, and 
that they insult the memory of Harry's parents, the wizarding world in 
general and Albus Dumbledore in particular right there to Hagrid's 
face, and I don't think it's unreasonable for this to be the scene 
where Hagrid is more angry and menacing than any other in the books so 
far.

I do accept that Hagrid might have been a little less casually 
insulting if he thought Dursley posed any threat to him (i.e. had 
magical powers, as physically who could be a threat to Hagrid?), but I 
don't think it's because he's a muggle-bigot.  At least not in my 
happy little head, where Hagrid may make dangerous mistakes, but his 
heart is worth it's considerable weight in gold.

Kimberly,
Defender of half-giants since (err.. what time is it?)




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 18:50:42 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:50:42 
Subject: FF: (CROSS-POST) TiP7 Plug
Message-ID: <F12qfVyR7i8i95HFJ6E0000a176@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12430

I'm not sure if Author Alert is back up yet.  I never got an alert for 
Yael's latest.  I also don't have the link for the Announcements list yet.  
This is the last time I'll do this, I think.  :-)

Trouble in Paradise, seventh episode, is up at ff.net.

Chapter 7:  The Reconciliation
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=143632&chapter=7

Ron and Hermione "schnoogle" all chapter long.  (shudders)  I still don't 
know how *I* endured over 100KB of it.  <vbg>

Therefore, I refuse to wait for my dear friend the Goat to accept my honor.

I hereby award myself the HP4GU Shipper Pax Award for Best Peacetime 
Performance by an Non-Ship Writer.

Hope you enjoy.  In the meantime, I have beta-reading, HP4GU newsletter 
template creating, and an overflowing in-box to attend to.  (sighs and sings 
to the tune of the "Song That Doesn't End")  "HP fanaticism never ends... 
yes, it goes on and on, my friends... some writer named Jo Rowling, not 
knowing what she'd done... created a world and these cool characters so many 
people love... HP fanaticism never ends..."

Best,

Ebony AKA AngieJ

"No matter what the situation, there is a Stevie Wonder lyric for the 
occasion."
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Fri Feb 16 18:49:01 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:49:01 -0000
Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's changes
Message-ID: <004b01c09849$21aa0900$a554063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12431


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michelle Apostolides" <michelleapostolides at lineone.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 16 February 2001 14:33
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's changes


> All will be set forth when I set out my character summary on Monday.
can
> this wait until then ?
>
> pretty pleeease !!!
>
> Michelle
>




From bbennett at joymail.com  Fri Feb 16 19:13:00 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:13:00 -0000
Subject: SHIP: H/H Ship Chart (Using 1979 as Hermione's BirthY...
In-Reply-To: <10.8dbe1df.27bec840@aol.com>
Message-ID: <96ju3s+40mb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12432

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> Thank you, B.  I am a little skittish when it comes to posting 
anything about divination or astrology to any list, as I know some 
people are distressed or offended by the subject, even if it's posted 
in fun.  I'm not so much upset as I am wanting to avoid going to the 
effort if this is something most people don't care for.

Please continue, Elizabeth! The relationship of divination and 
astrology to HP is interesting, and what inspired my first post was 
the thought of Hermione, Pavarti and Lavender in a discussion on star 
charting - can't you just imagine them? <g> I'm looking forward to 
seeing how JK Rowling ties this together through out the next 3 
books, and at the moment I'm rather hooked on the idea Cassandra put 
forth in her last chapter about Ron and divination. 

Best,
B.









From mschub at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 19:29:28 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (Mike Schubert)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:29:28 -0000
Subject: Peter vs. Sirius once again
In-Reply-To: <001501c0983d$777a3aa0$a9604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <96jv2o+o8p6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12433

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "nykteris" <nykteris at p...> wrote:
> If it is possible (and easy!) to discover the last spell the wand 
> performed, why isn't this procedure widely applied - also in Black's 
> case? 

That's a good point. The other thing about that scene that's always 
bugged me is that it says Peter cut off a finger and then changed into 
a rat and ran away with the rats, while Sirius stood there cackling 
maniacally. Why didn't either of them disapparate? I mean, perhaps 
Sirius was so strung out at that point that he didn't think of it, but 
what possessed Peter to run away with the rats as opposed to just 
apparating to somewhere else? Do you suppose there's any way to track 
where someone's apparated to/from? Because if not, it would make 
catching people awful hard...
-Mike




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Feb 16 19:36:59 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:36:59 -0000
Subject: OT--Christians for Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <3A8D6D57.8EBE5A72@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96jvgr+ejst@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12434

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Kimberly wrote:
> 
> >  I wonder if there's a Christians Against Censorship group or
> > something?  Not quite as catchy as SPEW, but I'd wear that badge!
> 
> Lessee. Howzabout Christians Against Censorship, Klans, Lunatics, &
> Extremism (CACKLE)? Best I could do off the top of my head. Caius?
> 

Christians Repudiating Unreasonable Censorship of Imaginary Other-
worlds (CRUCIO)


   - CMC




From lexac3 at usa.net  Fri Feb 16 19:42:44 2001
From: lexac3 at usa.net (Alex Corvus)
Date: 16 Feb 2001 12:42:44 MST
Subject: FF: Canon and fanon
Message-ID: <20010216194244.14495.qmail@nwcst283.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12435

Amanda wrote:

>Is there an extant term--it can't be "canon," since it's not in the
> books, can it?--for details that JKR has supplied, which are therefore
> Right, as distinguished from non-book material from other sources?

I've always used "apocrypha."

>Stuff that she's said on online chats and in interviews is just as firm >as
the books, since it's so immediately in print, saved in text versions, >etc.
She'd have to do the same sort of justification to mollify us fans >if she
altered some position made outside the books, as she would if she >altered
something inside them.

I'm curious - is this really how people feel? To me, if it's not in the book,
it just doesn't count. Sure, it's interesting to get some extra insight from
JKR, but what she says in chats and interviews and whatnot doesn't hold any
sort of immutability in my mind. Unless and until it appears in canon, in the
actual books, it's not set in stone. As long as what goes in the book is
supported by what's already in the books, she's not going to have to convince
me of anything, even if it contradicts something she's said outside of the
books. I've never given her statements outside of the book the same weight as
canon.

Alexa

"'Bollocks!' cried Hermione. 'I'd be running this show if those slags in
marketing weren't convinced girls will read books about boys but boys won't
read books about girls!'"
- Sydney, Dykes To Watch Out For


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Feb 16 19:54:45 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:54:45 -0000
Subject: Casting Sirius-slightly OT British V. American actors
In-Reply-To: <003b01c0983d$3e75abe0$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <96k0i5+e4ie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12436

Rina Stewart wrote:

> Well, I said he was the right age according to some sources. <g> I 
still just can't see the Marauders as being in their 50s, no matter 
how awesome the Snape casting is. I still envision Lupin and Sirius to 
be in their mid-late 30s in book 4, which is only about 5 years older 
than James now. But I agree, Tony Head would be good - I could see him 
as Lupin very easily. A little older than what I picture, but they did 
say Lupin looked older. <shrug>
> 

Marsters looks like he's in his late twenties to me (showing my age 
huh?). And I agree with whoever said that sometimes his accent wanes. 
I watched Buffy during its first and second seasons. I remember when 
Marsters first appeared as Spike some Brittish fans thought his accent 
was less than authentic. Again, I'm picky: I cringe whenever I hear an 
American actor's "Southern" accent delivered as an exaggerated 
Alabama-back-woods accent or a New Jersey accent sounding strictly 
Bronx. In one BBC comedy, "As Time Goes By", they totally poked fun at 
the average American impression of an authentic English accent: Bert 
in "Mary Poppins". Unfortunately, I think they didn't exaggerate too 
much, especially after hearing Rosie O'Donnell's "English accent" 
<cringe X 2>

LOL, if Alan Rickman can play Snape, Head can certainly pull off a 
Marauder's Role agewise. 

> <<But I'm skeptical of casting Americans in a film that is set in 
the 
> UK with UK characters. British actors and actresses are very good 
and 
> under-appreciated in the US. >>
> 
> Are you refering to James again here? <g> Because Tony *is British. 
LOL So there wouldn't be any problem with the all-Brit casting in his 
case.

Nope, I'm referring to British actors and actresses in general. Their 
audience here in the US is limited to the BBC-PBS productions and the 
occasional trans-Atlantic movie or production. From what I've seen of 
them,for the most part, the quality of their acting is far superior to 
their American counterparts (I'm also impressed with how well British 
screenwriters adapt novels). Considering the talent in the British 
acting community, it would be a little disconcerting if a British book 
by a British author set in the UK with British characters would cast 
non-British in the roles. I think that as cute as Haley Joel Osment 
is, he wouldn't play Harry like a British child would: he would play 
Harry like an American child playing a British child would and that's 
not too authentic or convincing. I can't help to imagine how close we 
got to having Rosie O'Donnell and her cheesy Dick Van Dyke "English" 
accent as Molly Weasley if Hollywood really dug it's claws into this 
movie. 

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Feb 16 20:05:15 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:05:15 -0000
Subject: FF: Canon and fanon
In-Reply-To: <20010216194244.14495.qmail@nwcst283.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <96k15s+i3ui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12437

 Alex Corvus  wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> >Stuff that she's said on online chats and in interviews is just as 
firm >as
> the books, since it's so immediately in print, saved in text 
versions, >etc.
> She'd have to do the same sort of justification to mollify us fans 
>if she
> altered some position made outside the books, as she would if she 
>altered
> something inside them.
> 
> I'm curious - is this really how people feel? To me, if it's not in 
the book,
> it just doesn't count. Sure, it's interesting to get some extra 
insight from
> JKR, but what she says in chats and interviews and whatnot doesn't 
hold any
> sort of immutability in my mind. Unless and until it appears in 
canon, in the
> actual books, it's not set in stone. As long as what goes in the 
book is
> supported by what's already in the books, she's not going to have to 
convince
> me of anything, even if it contradicts something she's said outside 
of the
> books. I've never given her statements outside of the book the same 
weight as
> canon.

I agree with you, Alexa. If it ain't there, it ain't there. Rowling 
could change her mind about including certain things or she could 
alter things completely. 

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Feb 16 20:08:11 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:08:11 -0000
Subject: Draco's Birthdate
In-Reply-To: <96jois+k9fe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96k1bb+7tgr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12438

 "Celeste Chang"  wrote:
> What do you guys think Draco's birthday is then? I thought he was a 
> Cancer or a Scorpio... he seems to fit both descriptions. But I 
> thought he'd be older than Harry...
> 
> - Celeste Chang

The books so far haven't revealed Draco's birthday or Ron's or even 
Hermione's for that matter. Clarification on the Hermione birthday: 
PoA gives the impression that her birthday is in September, but it 
does not give a specific day.

:-)Milz




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Feb 16 20:24:41 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:24:41 -0000
Subject: Canon? If she said it... / creatures or what?
In-Reply-To: <96jpm0+hi34@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96k2a9+hcrs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12439

Hey :)

I consider things JKR says in interviews to be canon. Trouble is, 
when she says things like "Good catch!" about someone noticing Mrs. 
Figg mentioned or "Of course!" when she places someone in Gryffindor, 
it just makes us speculate and wonder all the more! 

Along these lines, is there somewhere where all those chats are 
available in transcript form? I recently told someone that no, 
Harry's middle name has never been given, only to have them show me 
the transcript of the Scholastic interview where it WAS given, plain 
as day. I'd like to have those transcripts printed out and available 
to me. 

Then, is there an URL for each of these transcripts? I'd like to 
start crediting Lexicon information with hyperlinks to those 
references. You have no idea how many emails I get asking me how I 
know that Lily's maiden name was Evans. (That and "When will book 5 
come out?")

On another note, I've been working on the "creatures" section of the 
Lexicon lately and I realize that it's not as easy as it seems to 
classify all these various entities. How about some suggestions? We 
have normal animals, normal animals that have some sort of powers, 
intelligent species that aren't human, intelligent species that are 
PART-human (eg Centaurs) and so on and on and on. Anyone care to 
suggest a nice set of, say, four or five categories that I can use 
that will sort them all out? One category would be "Dark Creatures," 
certainly. But what else?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has more holes in it than I realize, but I'm working on it
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From katie at vquill.com  Fri Feb 16 20:22:21 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:22:21 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting Sirius-slightly OT British V. American actors
In-Reply-To: <96k0i5+e4ie@eGroups.com>
References: <003b01c0983d$3e75abe0$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010216122110.00b7b220@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12440

At 07:54 PM 2/16/01 +0000, you wrote:
>  In one BBC comedy, "As Time Goes By", they totally poked fun at
>the average American impression of an authentic English accent: Bert
>in "Mary Poppins".

Well, yes, but did you ever hear their impression of an American 
accent?  It wasn't too good, either.

(Hi! I'm new. Just joined. ;>)

-Katie



From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Feb 16 20:36:53 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:36:53 -0000
Subject: Remembering details, was Re: Help! McGonagall's book...
In-Reply-To: <96jpr7+onkr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96k315+469i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12441

Hey, fellow lunatic purist:

Relax. You're not insane. 

(Did that sound convincing? I tried to really sound honest when I 
wrote it.)

Snape read from the Evening Prophet when he informed Harry and Ron 
that Muggles had seen the Flying Ford Anglia ("FLYING FORD ANGLIA 
MYSTIFIES MUGGLES!").

"Silence!" said Snape coldly. "What have you done with the car?" Ron 
gulped. This wasn't the first time Snape had given Harry the 
impression of being able to read minds. But a moment later, he un 
derstood, as Snape unrolled today's issue of the Evening 
Prophet. "You were seen," he hissed, showing them the headline: 
FLYING FORD ANGLIA MYSTIFIES MUGGLES. He began to read aloud: "Two 
Muggles in London, convinced they saw an old car flying over the Post 
Office tower ... at noon in Norfolk, Mrs. Hetty Bayliss, while 
hanging out her washing ... Mr. Angus Fleet, of Peebles, reported to 
police ... Six or seven Muggles in all. I be lieve your father works 
in the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office?" he said, looking up at Ron 
and smiling still more nastily. "Dear, dear ... his own son. . . " 

That's from chapter Chamber of Secrets, of course, chapter five.

But wouldn't that just be the evening edition of the Daily Prophet? 
Mightn't there be a Morning Prophet as well, which is just the early 
edition of the paper?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
where you'll find a complete list of those nifty book titles by topic
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From sadie_row at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 20:38:06 2001
From: sadie_row at hotmail.com (sadie_row at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:38:06 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Questions...
Message-ID: <96k33e+eqgh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12442

<Gathers courage>
Okay, I did as suggested and searched through
the 
archived posts, looking for anything that might explain the rationale 
behind a Harry/Hermione pairing. There isn't a lot of canonical 
evidence offered, except for the kiss from the end of GoF.  Now, when 
I read that scene I believed (and continue to believe) that Hermione 
was only able to kiss Harry because it wasn't an "I'm in love with 
you" kiss.  It was simply a kiss for a friend who had just gone 
through a terrible time 
and she was glad that he was alive.   However, if she had kissed
Ron

well, that would be a different story, wouldn't it? Just my
thoughts 
on that particular  subject.

It seems like there really isn't anything in the canon to back
H/H up 
and so I remain unchanged in my confidence about Ms. Hermione 
Weasley.  

I'm curious (this is for you H/Her's out there). Would
Draco/Hermione 
be preferable over Ron/Hermione? This is, of course, if you
couldn't 
have Harry/Hermione. (sorry about all of the ?/?'s)

--Lallybroch





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 20:42:06 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:42:06 -0000
Subject: Pop of the Weaslys (filk)
In-Reply-To: <96jo9v+j9n4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96k3au+oa8o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12443

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., coriolan at w... wrote:
> He supports a very large family
> On a salary quite measly
> Works in the Magic Ministry
> Pop of the Weasleys!
> 
> When Lucius Malfoy mocked at him
> Arthur punched out that sleaze, he 
> Made that Death-Eater's head swim
> Pop of the Weasleys!
> 
> And with respect to flying Fords
> He has much expertise, he's
> Pleased to welcome Muggles aboard
> Pop of the Weasleys!
> 
> At the Burrow there is Molly
> Fred & George who want a joke shop
> There's good ol' Ron and young Ginny
> Who all love their dear pop!
> 
>    - CMC


WHhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
This is my very favorite one ever!  Thank you thank you thank you for 
giving Arthur his own song.  It's perfect!




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Feb 16 20:42:42 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:42:42 -0000
Subject: FF: Canon and fanon
In-Reply-To: <96k15s+i3ui@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96k3c2+eisr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12444


> > books. I've never given her statements outside of the book the 
same 
> weight as
> > canon.
> 
> I agree with you, Alexa. If it ain't there, it ain't there. Rowling 
> could change her mind about including certain things or she could 
> alter things completely

This is a good point, and if it weren't for the fact that JKR has so 
carefully planned this all out and worked out all those notebooks and 
boxes full of details about the HP universe, I would be more inclined 
to agree with it. But on matters like which house someone belongs to, 
I believe she actually knows and doesn't just come up with some 
answer, any answer, on the spot. Even in the case of my pet argument 
of this variety, the number of students at Hogwarts, I expect that 
her number of about a thousand will in fact be born out in the books 
later. Of course, she'll have some explaining to do...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which prides itself on being strictly canon and almost always is
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Feb 16 20:54:36 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 16 Feb 2001 12:54:36 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF: Trouble in Paradise
Message-ID: <20010216205436.6032.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12445

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010216/27e3740a/attachment.ksh>

From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 21:19:40 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:19:40 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Questions...
Message-ID: <F63tVoMDrxxnSYe4nhr0001812e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12446

Hi, Lallybroch!

>It seems like there really isn't anything in the canon to back
>H/H up
>and so I remain unchanged in my confidence about Ms. Hermione
>Weasley.

Well, Dr. anyway.  I've been so corrupted by fanon that I'm now convinced 
the girl *must* earn a terminal degree.  And even if she marries Ron, she 
may want to keep her own last name.  Of course, I'd prefer someone she meets 
in adulthood to Ron, but hey, it's JKR's world, not mine.  Cheers!  :-)

>I'm curious (this is for you H/Her's out there). Would
>Draco/Hermione be preferable over Ron/Hermione? This is, of course, if you 
>couldn't have Harry/Hermione. (sorry about all of the ?/?'s)
>

Every H/Her I've ever talked to would say an emphatic YES.  A lot of H/Hers 
are D/G or D/H on the side.  :-)  Cassie and Heidi ride our ship, but 
they've made no secret of preferring both versions of D/H.

I'm becoming convinced that we look at canon in different ways.  R/Hers 
usually cite evidence that is there in the books, some of which is 
conclusive (Ron--->Hermione, R/H sparring), most of which is not.  H/Hers 
cite trends and possibilities (FITD, Hermione herself being a wild card, the 
redeemability of Draco).  Perhaps H/Hers are the dreamers of the fandom, and 
R/Hers are more pragmatic?

Or perhaps it's far too early to tell for sure in canon.  One or both ships 
may be proven wrong as early as Book 5... I *never* considered the 
possibility of R/H until GoF, and it utterly surprised me there.

I'm sure there are some on this ship who'd prefer Ron/Hermione to 
Draco/Hermione.  Some of us who are insistent on our pref think that 
Ron/Harry is a much better pairing than Ron/Hermione.

Ah, between us there is a great gulf fixed... and ne'er the twain shall 
meet.  We still love you guys dearly, though.  At least most of the time.  
<vbg>

All the best,

Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 21:33:22 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:33:22 -0000
Subject: Canon? If she said it... / creatures or what?
In-Reply-To: <96k2a9+hcrs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96k6b2+dqi4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12447

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> Hey :)
> 
> I consider things JKR says in interviews to be canon. Trouble is, 
> when she says things like "Good catch!" about someone noticing Mrs. 
> Figg mentioned or "Of course!" when she places someone in 
Gryffindor, 
> it just makes us speculate and wonder all the more! <snip>

Re:  your other message. You're right that little things like "what 
was Lily's maiden name" that JKR has said in interviews should be 
considered canon, as she does have all those notebooks. But I do 
agree that they should be marked as "non-textual canonical info" for 
the practical considerations, i.e. people getting confused. There has 
to be a name for this. 

Re:  Alex's suggestion:  "Apocrypha" does sort of work, but the 
actual meaning of the term, referring to religious texts not actually 
in the official bible (which varies depending on which church or 
religion you're talking about.), doesn't really seem to apply. The 
root meaning of the term is secret and non-canonical, which Steve 
seems to feel is not the impression that we ought to give. :)

OT (or perhaps not):
The story (not sure if its true or apocryphal itself) goes that 
waaaaay in the past, the Church elders decided to solve their 
difficult canon debate about which books ought to be in the bible by 
letting God sort it out, so they locked the room, and the next 
morning decided based on which scrolls remained on the table. 




> On another note, I've been working on the "creatures" section of 
the 
> Lexicon lately and I realize that it's not as easy as it seems to 
> classify all these various entities. How about some suggestions? We 
> have normal animals, normal animals that have some sort of powers, 
> intelligent species that aren't human, intelligent species that are 
> PART-human (eg Centaurs) and so on and on and on. Anyone care to 
> suggest a nice set of, say, four or five categories that I can use 
> that will sort them all out? One category would be "Dark 
Creatures," 
> certainly. But what else?
> 

Another would be to separate creatures from mythology/folklore that 
JKR has borrowed vs. those which she has made up herself, but that 
would be lots of work, depending on how obscure she gets later. 

Charmian






From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Fri Feb 16 21:33:47 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:33:47 -0000
Subject: FILK: OT-Chat
Message-ID: <96k6br+41ud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12448

              OT-Chat
       An Administrative filk
          by Jim Flanagan

to the tune of "Go See Cal"
http://www.calworthington.com/goseecal.ram


If your well of canon knowlege has run dry,
  it makes no sense to curse or wonder why,
just hie thee to the group
  where the topics are all moot,
OT-Chat, OT-Chat, OT-Chat.

When you don't care if Hermione's going to swoon
  for Ron or Harry, Snape, or Neville's broom --
don't simper, sigh or pout,
  just pour some Guiness Stout;
  you're ready for a bout
  of OT-Chat.

If Narnia is the place you wish to be,
  and Hogwarts' many minions you would flee;
there's a group where you can linger,
  safe from listmom's middle finger,
OT-Chat, OT-Chat, OT-Chat.

Have topical discussions petered out?
  Come and argue -- and let your keyboard shout:
whether Sauron's mighty orcs
  would beat Lord Voldy's dorks,
OT-Chat, OT-Chat, OT-Chat.

Has good ship R/H sunk into the sea,
  and you need to find a *drier* place to be?
It's cozy, safer, warmer,
  and no moderators storm here,
OT-Chat, OT-Chat, OT-Chat.
  
When "Goblet" starts to bore you all to tears,
  and "Phoenix" isn't due for several years,
grab a pumpkin juice and snacks,
  put your feet up and relax --
OT-Chat, OT-Chat, OT-Chat.
  
You'd have to pull a real subversive coup
  just to share on-list a recipe or two:
the listmom's very quick
  to delete them with a click,
  so post your "spotted dick"
  on OT-Chat.

__________________

Join Here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter








From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Feb 16 21:54:09 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:54:09 -0000
Subject: Canon? If she said it... / creatures or what?
In-Reply-To: <96k6b2+dqi4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96k7i1+2ktv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12449

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sashibuya at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> > Hey :)
> > 
> > I consider things JKR says in interviews to be canon. Trouble is, 
> > when she says things like "Good catch!" about someone noticing 
Mrs. 
> > Figg mentioned or "Of course!" when she places someone in 
> Gryffindor, 
> > it just makes us speculate and wonder all the more! <snip>
> 
> Re:  your other message. You're right that little things like "what 
> was Lily's maiden name" that JKR has said in interviews should be 
> considered canon, as she does have all those notebooks. But I do 
> agree that they should be marked as "non-textual canonical info" 
for 
> the practical considerations, i.e. people getting confused. There 
has 
> to be a name for this. 

I'll just credit them to the interview. I credit a book reference by 
book and chapter -- (CS3)for example. So the interviews just need 
abbreviations. (Sch) would stand for the Scholastic interview, for 
example. Then it could be hyperlinked to a separate page that 
describes the interview and links to the transcript on Scholastic's 
site. That's what I'll do, I just need to find the URL's for all the 
interviews. Anyone have those?


> 
> 
> > On another note, I've been working on the "creatures" section of 
> the 
> > Lexicon lately and I realize that it's not as easy as it seems to 
> > classify all these various entities. 
> 
> Another would be to separate creatures from mythology/folklore that 
> JKR has borrowed vs. those which she has made up herself, but that 
> would be lots of work, depending on how obscure she gets later. 

The current version of the beastiary notes which creatures JKR 
invented herself. That's not really all that hard to figure out if 
you've ever played Dungeons and Dragons... :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
complete with imperfect beastiary and uncredited interview references
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 16 21:59:15 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:59:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FILK: OT-Chat
References: <96k6br+41ud@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8DA2B3.A588B421@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12450

Jim Flanagan wrote:

>               OT-Chat
>        An Administrative filk
>           by Jim Flanagan

I salute the graceful and poetic clue bat wielded by the honorable Jim,
and have joined the group in question.....[stifle the wild cries of
relief, all of you...I'm still on this one, too...]

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Feb 16 22:00:35 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:00:35 -0000
Subject: EVENING PROPHET
Message-ID: <96k7u3+dhse@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12451

Sorry.. I dont have time to find the proper letter and do a reply.. I 
have one shoe on and have to get ready for work...

In CoS chapter five, when the boys arrive at school in the Anglia... 
"But a moment later, he understood, as Snape unrolled today's issue 
of the Evening Prophet." CoS-5

Is that what you were thinking of?
Doreen_Iowa




From lexac3 at usa.net  Fri Feb 16 22:08:09 2001
From: lexac3 at usa.net (Alex Corvus)
Date: 16 Feb 2001 15:08:09 MST
Subject: FF: Canon, fanon, apocrypha
Message-ID: <20010216220809.10927.qmail@nwcst319.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12452

Steve wrote:
>This is a good point, and if it weren't for the fact that JKR has so 
>carefully planned this all out and worked out all those notebooks and 
>boxes full of details about the HP universe, I would be more inclined 
>to agree with it. But on matters like which house someone belongs to, 
>I believe she actually knows and doesn't just come up with some 
>answer, any answer, on the spot. Even in the case of my pet argument 
>of this variety, the number of students at Hogwarts, I expect that 
>her number of about a thousand will in fact be born out in the books 
>later. Of course, she'll have some explaining to do...

This is a perfect example. I don't "believe" the number 1,000. If it's ever
established as correct in the books, I'll have to adjust my HP-worldview to
accommodate it, but it's not part of the canon makeup of the HP universe to
me, at this point.

Sure she's got boxes and boxes of notes, but that's irrelevant to the reality
of any particular information *within* the HP universe. I'm explaining this
really badly, I'm going to have to go outside HP ...

In another fandom I'm in, some people managed to get their hands on the
scripts for the episodes of the show that would be filmed one season. Some
things were written in the scripts that never made it onto the screen. Some
parts of those scenes were even filmed, then left on the cutting room floor.
So the question became, was the material in the scripts apocryphal or canon.
My contention is that it's NOT canon, no matter if it was written by the
creator, no matter if it was filmed. If it didn't make it onto the screen, it
doesn't count. And it may fit perfectly well into the canon, it may be part of
the background for the show and the characters in the creator's head. But
because it didn't actually "happen" within the universe of the show, it's not
canon.

You run into various problems accepting what I call apocrypha as canon. We had
a bunch of people running around already basing their views and
interpretations of what would happen on this show, on the scripts they read.
And then when the episodes actually aired, the impact of some scenes had
changed because of what was left in or taken out, and the possibility of very
different interpretations was opened up.

I don't think JKR is going around (usually) tossing ideas off the top of her
head, either. (Except for that 1,000 thing. I really don't believe that 1,000
thing. <g>) But until the details she's worked out go into the books, they
don't have the same kind of "reality," *within* the HP universe, that canon
does.

Alexa

"'Bollocks!' cried Hermione. 'I'd be running this show if those slags in
marketing weren't convinced girls will read books about boys but boys won't
read books about girls!'"
- Sydney, Dykes To Watch Out For


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Feb 16 22:12:55 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:12:55 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Questions...
In-Reply-To: <96k33e+eqgh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96k8l7+t6td@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12453

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sadie_row at h... wrote:
> 
> I'm curious (this is for you H/Her's out there). Would
> Draco/Hermione 
> be preferable over Ron/Hermione? This is, of course, if you
> couldn't 
> have Harry/Hermione. (sorry about all of the ?/?'s)
> 
Oh, yes, but only if Draco becomes un-evil (or, in the alternative, 
if both of them turn out evil, but I think the likelihood of Evil!
Hermione is up there (or is it "down there") with Evil!Harry) (note: 
I did not say that evil!ron is unlikely...and I did not say draco had 
to be "nice")

As Ebony said, my minor ship is D/Herm (and my slash ship is 
Draco/Harry (harry/ron is something I find a little silly, but that's 
just me)) - and I'm in the middle of creating a fanfic where Draco 
is, throughout canon and beyond, not as evil as Harry seems to think. 
But don't ask ebony about the next chapter - she's not allowed to say 
yet! (it's at http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/index.fic?
action=story-read&storyid=96654 if you want to see it) 
I don't know why I don't like Ron as much as I should - on paper, 
he's a pretty good guy, very loyal, very good at chess - and I don't 
have anything against redheads, being slightly auburn myself. It's 
just that something about him just catches me in the wrong way when I 
try to visualize him as someone's life partner. 
All you sane people are saying, "this girl thinks Draco is more 
marriage material than sweet, earnest Ron Weasley? Is she nuts?" and 
the answer is, "yeah, I think there's more potential for hermione to 
have a vibrant yet mutually understanding, passionate yet not 
unnecessarily argumentative relationship with Draco than with Ron - 
and I thought that even before reading the "debate" sequence of TiP...





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Feb 16 22:16:07 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:16:07 -0000
Subject: FF: Canon, fanon, apocrypha
In-Reply-To: <20010216220809.10927.qmail@nwcst319.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <96k8r7+3cct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12454

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alex Corvus <lexac3 at u...> wrote:
> Steve wrote:
> >This is a good point, and if it weren't for the fact that JKR has 
so 
> >carefully planned this all out and worked out all those notebooks 
and 
> >boxes full of details about the HP universe, I would be more 
inclined 
> >to agree with it. But on matters like which house someone belongs 
to, 
> >I believe she actually knows and doesn't just come up with some 
> >answer, any answer, on the spot. Even in the case of my pet 
argument 
> >of this variety, the number of students at Hogwarts, I expect that 
> >her number of about a thousand will in fact be born out in the 
books 
> >later. Of course, she'll have some explaining to do...
> 
> This is a perfect example. I don't "believe" the number 1,000. If 
it's ever
> established as correct in the books, I'll have to adjust my HP-
worldview to
> accommodate it, but it's not part of the canon makeup of the HP 
universe to
> me, at this point.
> 
> Sure she's got boxes and boxes of notes, but that's irrelevant to 
the reality
> of any particular information *within* the HP universe. I'm 
explaining this
> really badly, I'm going to have to go outside HP ...


In which category are those of you who are "canon purists" going to 
put things like the upcoming JKR books Quidditch through the ages and 
Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them - what if the Quidditch one 
says "In 1978, 7th year Gryffindor Chaser James Potter...." 
or "Fantastic Beasts" says "Rubeus Hagrid, who started at Hogwarts as 
a Gryffindor in 1942..."?
And what about the video games (including the spells one) which is 
coming out later this year, where JKR has approved all 
the "fact"things in there?
Will those become Canon?




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Feb 16 22:20:35 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:20:35 -0000
Subject: Casting couch: Suggestions for Arthur etc.
Message-ID: <001501c09866$af946cc0$ba3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12455

I had a look at the Cary Elwes pictures and I think he's much too young and pretty to play Lockhart.  Lockhart should be more sleazy, and perhaps in his 40s, not a bimboy.  I *really* can't think who could play him... 

I have a suggestion for Arthur.  Again, I think Hugh Laurie is too young.  IMO, Molly and Arthur are both about 50.  Julie Walters is 50 and so is the actor I have in mind - it's ex Dr Who, Peter Davison!  I've added a double pic of him: endearing, slightly balding, tall (over 6ft), thin and wearing glasses in one the shots.  He's also blond, so could easily go redhead without looking silly.  I'm sure he's been mentioned before, but I can't find anything in the archives. 

Check out the files section, under Members suggestions.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/

I've been thinking.  If we assume Molly and Arthur are 50 in Book 1, I'd say Snape, James & Lily, Remus and Sirius are all about 40.  This means Rickman is about 15 years too old, but could just about get away with it (with make-up) and we should be thinking of people between 35 and 45 for these parts.  Clive Owen, who I suggested for Sirius, is 36.  

Robbie Coltrane is about 50 (playing 65), Maggie Smith is 66 (playing 70).

If I can jump to PoA again, my latest choice would be Wendy Craig for Sybill Trelawney.  She is about the same age as Maggie Smith.  She was in some classic b/w films of the 60s and some gentle British sitcoms in the 70s, plus a drama series called "Nanny" and she recently made a stage comeback, playing Mrs Malaprop.  Anyone who saw her play Ria in the sitcom "Butterflies" couldn't fail to agree that she is incredibly misty.  I've put a really poor photo of Wendy in the Members' suggestions file. Don't all rush at once....

Finally - thinking of a role for Eddie Izzard in the film - there is only one part for him....the sexually ambiguous Professor Sinistra.

Neil

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Visit the Portkey for all the info on this club:
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From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 22:29:18 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:29:18 -0000
Subject: More Snape topics
Message-ID: <96k9ju+imdn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12456

I'm a newbie to this site, migrating from UHPFC board to here.  (I'm 
bCN over there and MMM over at ff.net, in case you are wondering.)

I spent the last 2-3 hours browsing through and there are several 
important Snape topic/theories that hasn't been covered (I think):

1. The Pensieve scene with Bertha Jorkins.  Why is Dumbledore sad 
over a harmless gossip among students?  It just isn't the right 
reaction.  Would this have connections with the werewolf incident? 
Who was the boy that put a hex on Bertha?  Snape? Sirius? Who is 
Florence?  Why did Sirius seem to dislike Bertha so much?

2. Anyone notice that Potions seems to a very important plot device 
in the books?  In book 2, it's Polyjuice and Mandrakes restorative; 
book 3 it's the Wolfsbane Potion; book 4, it's Polyjuice again and 
Voldie came back using a Potion.
Anyone want to bet that Snape was the one who found the recipe for 
Voldie in the first place?  Would that be somehow related to his 
*mission*?

3. Neville and the memory charm.
This has been much discussed over at the UHPFC.  Bertha was forgetful 
because she had a memory charm put on her.  Now, Neville is also 
forgetful -- now, what if Neville also had a memory charm to make him 
forget about the torturing of his parents?
Now, remember Neville's Boggart?  The most horrible and frightening 
thing ever happen to Neville was the torture of his parents.  Okay, 
Snape can be intimidating but Neville's fear is unnatural.  What if 
Snape was present on the night the Longbottoms were tortured and 
Neville knows it, subconsciously?  Was he there to save Neville or is 
he just a plain evil man pretending to be good to save his own skin?


MMM




From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 22:36:21 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:36:21 -0000
Subject: More Snape topics
In-Reply-To: <96k9ju+imdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ka15+i77v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12457

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:
<snip>
> 
> 1. The Pensieve scene with Bertha Jorkins.  Why is Dumbledore sad 
> over a harmless gossip among students?  It just isn't the right 
> reaction.  Would this have connections with the werewolf incident? 
> Who was the boy that put a hex on Bertha?  Snape? Sirius? Who is 
> Florence?  Why did Sirius seem to dislike Bertha so much?

I don't think he dislikes her, just seems to think little of her. As 
for Dumbledore, I read it as him remembering one of the few times he 
interacted personally with her, and being sad over her untimely 
death. 

> 
> 2. Anyone notice that Potions seems to a very important plot device 
> in the books?  In book 2, it's Polyjuice and Mandrakes restorative; 
> book 3 it's the Wolfsbane Potion; book 4, it's Polyjuice again and 
> Voldie came back using a Potion.
> Anyone want to bet that Snape was the one who found the recipe for 
> Voldie in the first place?  Would that be somehow related to his 
> *mission*?

You have some original comments here.... No, I hadn't really thought 
about how important the potions were to the books. No wonder it's a 
core subject at Hogwarts. I personally received the impression that 
Voldemort was using a very archaic spell, because we rarely see 
people recite things over potions, but that has no basis in canon. 

<snip>
> Now, remember Neville's Boggart?  The most horrible and frightening 
> thing ever happen to Neville was the torture of his parents.  Okay, 
> Snape can be intimidating but Neville's fear is unnatural.  What if 
> Snape was present on the night the Longbottoms were tortured and 
> Neville knows it, subconsciously?  Was he there to save Neville or 
is 
> he just a plain evil man pretending to be good to save his own skin?

Hmmm. The incident with Neville's parents happened post-Voldemort's 
fall. I'd have to think that Snape, even if evil, was pretty foolish 
to get involved at that point. But as for fear, I don't think he 
"fears" his parents' torturers coming after him. It could be that 
while traumatized, he regards this as a sad illness of theirs, rather 
than feeling anxiety over the return of the DEs; after all, most of 
the wizarding world thinks that Voldy's gone for good. It seems that 
Snape is just the person right now causing the most anxiety to 
Neville. 

Charmian




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Fri Feb 16 22:56:52 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:56:52 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts size
Message-ID: <96kb7k+brda@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12458

Hogwarts has 142 staircases (PS). It is also described as 'vast'. It 
takes (estimated by Ron in PoA) ten minutes to get from the great 
Hall to Prof. Trelawneys room. The thing must be really big. If there 
are only 280 students (10 per house x 4 houses x 7 years) then they 
would really rattle around a castle that big. Also there are 
continual references to the corridors being very busy between 
lessons. If the castle was that big with the classes being so spread 
out (down in the dungeons, up in Trelawneys tower, etc.) the 
corridors really wouldn't be crowded. Therefore there must be alot 
more students. 1000 seems like a good figure.
Also, we're never told the dimensions of a Quidditch pitch, but even 
if the entire school of, say, 280 students turned up to every match, 
the stadium would be pretty empty; there certainly would not be the 
atmosphere JKR injects into the game. You need the best part of 1000 
spectators even to make a small stadium atmospheric.



Dai




From rlpenar at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 22:57:41 2001
From: rlpenar at yahoo.com (rlpenar at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:57:41 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts population - I have proof!
Message-ID: <96kb95+tmus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12459

I know, I know, it's been brought up a million times....but I was 
reading my snazzy new adult-cover UK edition of PoA (thank you to my 
sweetie for the V-day gift!) and during the Gryffindor/Slytherin 
match, it states that 3/4 of the students were wearing crimson 
(Hufflepuffs & Ravenclaws rooted for Gryffindor) and then when Harry 
is flying, he looks down and sees 200 Slytherins wearing green (Snape 
was in the front row wearing green robes). I'm going to go out on a 
limb here and say that all of the Slytherins were rooting for their 
own team, which means that we can just do some elementery algebra 
(1/4 of the students is 200 students, therefore there are 800 
students total), and......YEE HAW! We have a number of Hogwarts 
students: 800. 

Now don't anyone go bursting my bubble by telling me that Harry looks 
down and *thinks* he sees 200 Slytherin, or that Harry has double-
vision, or something---I'm so darn proud of myself!

OT: Plus, I'm in a very good mood because it is 85 degrees outside 
and sunnny and I'm about to leave work! Woo hoo!

Becky






From lexac3 at usa.net  Fri Feb 16 23:03:21 2001
From: lexac3 at usa.net (Alex Corvus)
Date: 16 Feb 2001 16:03:21 MST
Subject: FF: Canon, fanon, apocrypha
Message-ID: <20010216230321.27449.qmail@nwcst338.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12460

Heidi wrote:
>In which category are those of you who are "canon purists" going to 
>put things like the upcoming JKR books Quidditch through the ages and 
>Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them
<snip>

Personally, I'd accept JKR-written books as canon, much the same way I accept
both The Hobbit and LotR as Middle-Earth canon. The same way I accept that
godawful X-Files movie as canon, even though I don't want to. Unless some
conflict develops between the 7 HP books and the other books, in which case
I'd give the 7HP primacy. An expansion of existing texts by the creator in the
same universe is just adding onto canon.

>And what about the video games (including the spells one) which is 
>coming out later this year, where JKR has approved all 
>the "fact" things in there?
>Will those become Canon?

Not to me. JKR has approved the script for the movie, that doesn't mean I'm
going to accept the movie as canon, as compared to the books. I don't accept
pro SW or Trek novels as canon, either. I'm not entirely sure about this, but
my SW fanboy source is telling me that George Lucas has said that the pro SW
novels are *not* canon, even though they're approved.

Gah! And having invoked Lucas in a discussion, I now have to go sprinkle
myself with salt and water in a cleansing ritual and lie down for a bit ...

Alexa


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1



From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 23:17:52 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:17:52 -0000
Subject: More Snape topics
In-Reply-To: <96ka15+i77v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96kcf0+d44l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12461

<snipp> 
> I don't think he dislikes her, just seems to think little of her. 
As 
> for Dumbledore, I read it as him remembering one of the few times 
he 
> interacted personally with her, and being sad over her untimely 
> death. 

Ah, but remember that Dumbledore didn't know the Bertha was dead 
yet.  She was *missing*.  Dumbledore said -- 'But why did you follow 
him in the first place?' and makes it sound as though it was a huge 
mistakes.

>I personally received the impression that 
> Voldemort was using a very archaic spell, because we rarely see 
> people recite things over potions, but that has no basis in canon. 
It is a potion -- a horrible scene with him rising from the cauldron -
-naked.  Voldie said so himself that he could only come back using a 
Potion because every spells needs a wand.
 
> <snip>
> > Now, remember Neville's Boggart?  The most horrible and 
frightening 
> > thing ever happen to Neville was the torture of his parents.  
Okay, 
> > Snape can be intimidating but Neville's fear is unnatural.  What 
if 
> > Snape was present on the night the Longbottoms were tortured and 
> > Neville knows it, subconsciously?  Was he there to save Neville 
or 
> is 
> > he just a plain evil man pretending to be good to save his own 
skin?
> 
> Hmmm. The incident with Neville's parents happened post-Voldemort's 
> fall. I'd have to think that Snape, even if evil, was pretty 
foolish 
> to get involved at that point. But as for fear, I don't think he 
> "fears" his parents' torturers coming after him. It could be that 
> while traumatized, he regards this as a sad illness of theirs, 
rather 
> than feeling anxiety over the return of the DEs; after all, most of 
> the wizarding world thinks that Voldy's gone for good. It seems 
that 
> Snape is just the person right now causing the most anxiety to 
> Neville. 

True but it is an interesting and fun theory anyway.  BTW, all 
credits belong to larkin4 over at UHPFC.  Personally, I think the 
memory charm and bad memory part would be true.  Not quite sure about 
the Boggarts and Snape.




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Fri Feb 16 23:38:56 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:38:56 -0000
Subject: Conjuring; The Number 12
Message-ID: <96kdmg+h7gv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12462

I happened to think about the ability to conjure as I was cursing my 
PC at work, after it crashed for the third time. I wished I had some 
sort of magical powers to keep it from doing its usual Friday 
afternoon swoon.  I checked the Archives and didn't see anything on 
point to what I was thinking about, so here goes. 

Wizards apparently have the ability to conjure objects out of thin 
air.  The 2 instances I thought of are in PoA.  First, 
Dumbledore "draws" a chair for Trelawney at Christmas dinner with his 
wand in mid-air and a solid, real chair thumps to the floor for her 
to use. 

(Number 12 reference - there were 12 people at the table until 
Trelawney unexpectedly showed up.)

The second reference is the scene in the Shrieking Shack after Peter 
is revealed and Harry prevents Remus and Sirius from killing him.  
Sirius conjures "heavy manacles from thin air." Although it didn't 
say so, I assume he was still using the unconscious Snape's wand. So, 
here are some questions.

Can all wizards conjure?

If so, why can't Lupin conjure himself some new robes? 

Once an object has been conjured into being, does it last forever or 
is there some sort time frame beyond which the object will disappear?
If the conjured object will eventually disappear, it would certainly 
explain why one wouldn't want to wear conjured clothing!

Conjuring seems to be different from transfiguration - will we see 
Harry, Ron, etal. taking a Conjuring Class in the future?  For that 
matter, will they take a course in Wizard Duelling?

Marianne
who's off to conjure up some dinner...




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Feb 16 23:44:18 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:44:18 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts population - I have proof! (not conclusive)
In-Reply-To: <96kb95+tmus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEGFDDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12463

Becky wrote: "I know, I know, it's been brought up a million times....but I
was reading my snazzy new adult-cover UK edition of PoA (thank you to my
sweetie for the V-day gift!) and during the Gryffindor/Slytherin match, it
states that 3/4 of the students were wearing crimson (Hufflepuffs &
Ravenclaws rooted for Gryffindor) and then when Harry is flying, he looks
down and sees 200 Slytherins wearing green (Snape was in the front row
wearing green robes). I'm going to go out on a
limb here and say that all of the Slytherins were rooting for their own
team, which means that we can just do some elementery algebra (1/4 of the
students is 200 students, therefore there are 800 students total),
and......YEE HAW! We have a number of Hogwarts students: 800."

The evidence that you have presented in inconclusive. Yes there are 200
supporters of the Slytherin team, but no indication is made that they are
all students. The commonly aired reason at this stage is that alumni visit
the school for some of the games and it was in fact these people that made
up the vast majority of the supporters.


The evidence for any of the possible student population figures (300, 500
and 1000 are the commonly touted figures) can be backed up with evidence
from the canon, but to do so in each case means ignoring some of the other
evidence presented.

We know Harry's year in Gryffindor to have at least 8 people, and in all
probability 10. There is only one boy's dorm for their year in Gryffindor
and there are only the 5 boys in the year. In joint lessons with both
Hufflepuff and Slytherin we get totals of 20 students. This suggests 10
students per year per house (on average), which gives a total of about 300
students.


Various people have suggested reasons involving disproportionate year sizes,
but I have yet to see any reason that is convincing. If the Harry's year is
small because of the Voldemort effect then so also should be the years above
him and also Ginny's year as these are the children born while Voldemort
carried out his reign of terror. Year groups could vary but why not by more
than a factor of 2. To get the population up to 1000, from having 50 in
Harry's year, requires year sizes of over 150. Which is a totally massive
leap from the suggested size of Harry's year.

Yet, as Dai said earlier, Hogwarts will seem empty unless it has 1000 people
in it and may even seem quite empty with this number in it. It is described
as being massive and, as pointed out, it takes ages to get from one part of
the castle to another. The corridors are described as being busy and this
could only happen with a large number of people in a small space.


But I pity the poor people having to sit through the sorting. Taking an
average of one minute per student, which seems reasonable, and a year size
of 150 (about equal to 1000/7) gives a sorting of 2 and a half hours. To get
the sorting in at under 30 minutes would requires each student to go from
being lined up to having been sorted in 12 seconds, which would be one
incredible feat. Also a good estimate would be that they would get into
Hogwarts at around 8 pm after the train journey up (it is dark, or nearly
dark, when they arrive and this is a reasonable time for dusk at the
beginning of September in Scotland). 2 hours of sorting, some notices and a
feast of a couple of hours will take them through to midnight. Would the
students ever get any sleep? They are up the next morning to start work at 9
pm, rather them than me (though I am seemingly incapable of getting up for
anything earlier than a 10 am start nowadays - have been a student for too
long).


Having 75 people per house, would this give enough people to choose a
Quidditch team from. There seems to be some competition for places, the
first years, in general do not play, and many will not have their own
broomstick or will be uninterested in playing. Having 250 to choose from
seems like a much better option.


Now for another argument I have not seen before. At the end of first year
each house had around 400 points. This seems to be a very low total. If the
points are only really of interest to those who are in the first few years,
which seems reasonable based on my experience of a similar system at my
school where this type of thing only really interest to the younger members
of the house. Say just the first 3 years really make any effort to get
points to contribute to the points total for the house. If we have 1000
students in the school then we get about 100 in the first three years per
house. This gives us an average of 4 points per person. Yes some do not get
any, and some will be lost by others, but even so 4 points per person?
Hermione gets this on the first day (of each year if my memory is correct)
of each school year.

With 300 students, this would covert to about 15 points per person, which
still seems to be very low. Maybe this is a topic for a different post, but
why such low points totals? I started this post to talk about the size of
the Hogwarts student population and have been left concerned about the house
points system. Will be giving it some thought.



Becky wrote: "OT: Plus, I'm in a very good mood because it is 85 degrees
outside and sunnny and I'm about to leave work! Woo hoo!"


The only reason I bothered to start this reply was that this comment annoyed
me and I wanted to respond. It is cold and dark here (something to do with
it being quite late) and the only blessing is that it is not raining at the
moment.


Simon
--
"I'm Dr. Simon Branford. I'm in charge of this floor, and this room is
off-limits to everyone..." - Draco Sinister Chapter 7 -- Easy Is the Descent
by Cassandra Claire - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty





From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sat Feb 17 01:15:05 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:15:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Casting, wizard appearance and magical aging
In-Reply-To: <001501c09866$af946cc0$ba3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102161840130.10609-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12464

Hey all,

All the recent discussions of casting and the ages of various
actors/characters prompt me to ask about how the longer lifespans of
magical folks should affect the age of the (Muggle *g*) actors chosen to
play them.  If witches/wizards do age more slowly, shouldn't actors be
chosen who are younger, chronologically, than their characters?

This policy doesn't seem to be the one that TPTB are following (e.g.,
McGonagall being played by Maggie Smith, who is nearly 70, instead of
someone middle-aged, despite 70 being slightly on the young side of
middle aged for a witch).  Do we have any definite idea of how the
longer lifespan affects the aging process and appearance?  Magical
children must physically appear (more or less) their chronological age
and develop at approximately the same rate, I would assume, since no
mention is made of it being otherwise, but the aging process must be
retarded at some point, or we'd have a lot of wizards suffering from
Tithonus syndrome. :)  (Nicholas Flamel as a grasshopper? *g*)

Now I suppose it would work best for the aging process just to be slower
on the whole, so that what is in the beginning a completely
non-observable difference between wizard and Muggle, becomes more and
more exaggerated until at around 150 (which I'm taking to be the normal
lifespan of a wizard, perhaps without adequate justification) old age
has well set in.  By 'work best', I mean make most intuitive sense to
me in following a biological sort of model, though, admittedly, magic
need not be constrained by biological, genetic, or any other sort of
'natural' rule system.  

I have visions in my head of this difference in aging rates mapping onto
one of those curvy-graphy functions, but dear me, high school math was a
long time ago. *g* It should be some kind of exponential growth, but I'm
afraid I just don't have the knowledge any more to do the thing properly
-- though I'm sure it's possible, to a limited degree of specificity and
relying on loads o' assumptions -- and I haven't replaced the batteries
in my TI-82 (good ol' TI-82!) for years (which could do the thinking for
me *g*).  But the net effect would be that the differences in rate of
aging would grow more and more pronounced.  IOW, what is practically
indetectable in childhood/young adulthood would be noticeable by the
40s, but not startling (chronologically 40, appear 30 or so); would be
pronounced by 60/70ish (chronologically 65, appear 45); extremely
obvious by 80/90 (chronologically 85, appear 48; cf. Dumbledore's auburn
hair at 100); and finally just extreme by 150, when the wizard should
appear about 75.  All numbers made up without real math for illustrative
purposes, naturally.  :)

Anyway, what I'm basically saying is that I think most of the choices
(including those of the actual people involved with the movie) are just
too old...  

--jen, who, for some reason, has Prof. McGonagall's appearance fixed in
her mind as being a *lot* like JKR's, complete with blond hair, no
matter *what* canon, fanon, planon or whatever have to say about it :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Feb 17 01:28:28 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:28:28 -0500
Subject: blue peter, etc (PLEASE read if you live in the UK!)
References: <959tqt+4fur@eGroups.com> <3A7B8B80.A651D5ED@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3A8DD3BC.DEEC34A@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12465

I get these weekly updates on HP news through a search I've set up and
among this week's info was the fact that JKR is going to be on a kids'
show in the UK called Blue Peter (and if you ask me about my crush on
phillip schofield when he was in Joseph, I won't tell you!) for Comic
Relief Day & the release of QUIDDITCH and FANTASTIC BEASTS (what *are*
we doing for abbreviations? QTTA and FB or FB&WTFT (I prefer the FB,
myself)).
The url is http://www.bbc.co.uk/bluepeter/articles/article_rowling.shtml

They are taking questions - but only from little kids, I think -so those
of you in the UK - find your nieces, nephews, sons & daughters and ask
them to send Our Burning Questions about things like The Page That
Changed, The Kiss At The End of the Book, The Evil In Draco Malfoy, The
Glimmer In Dumbledore's Eye and The House That James Was In to:
Blue Peter Questions
PO Box 20
BBC TV
KLondon
W12 6BP

Otherwise, we're going to end up suffering thru questions about how she
got the idea and whether the books are going to get scarier again.
ALthough random questions about frog marching are always cute &
unexpected!

Oh, those of you in the UK? We expect live posts of every single thing
she says during this interview -and PLEASE let us know about any other
publicity she does for the books.
I am *crossing my fingers* for another online chat!
ANd I know penny is *wishing and hoping* that these books are marked by
Scholastic as FOR ALL AGES or FOR ADULTS so they can go on the REAL NYT
list.




From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 01:42:34 2001
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:42:34 -0000
Subject: OT and kinda weird:  American-to-British translation please!!!!
Message-ID: <96kkua+hkov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12466

Hi folks, I need help with a project, and I think you guys can answer 
me the fastest.
When talking to a British person about "mileage," as in a car that 
gets good mileage, would you actually call it mileage or would you 
call it something else?
I know I can count on you guys!
Best wishes,
Kaitlin





From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sat Feb 17 01:47:53 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:47:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as teacher
Message-ID: <20010217014753.88C3D274B@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12467

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From sashibuya at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 17 01:48:53 2001
From: sashibuya at hotmail.com (sashibuya at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:48:53 -0000
Subject: Conjuring
In-Reply-To: <96kdmg+h7gv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96kla5+p5h0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12468

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
<snip>
So, 
> here are some questions.
> 
> Can all wizards conjure?
> 
> If so, why can't Lupin conjure himself some new robes? 
> 
> Once an object has been conjured into being, does it last forever 
or 
> is there some sort time frame beyond which the object will 
disappear?
> If the conjured object will eventually disappear, it would 
certainly 
> explain why one wouldn't want to wear conjured clothing!

Well, yes, but if one knows the time duration... Perhaps Lupin's 
clothes, while shabby, aren't in poor enough condition to be actually 
uncomfortable, and thus he does not think it important enough to 
invest the energy? <rim shot>

Also, perhaps for the object to be conjured, one must know where it 
is, or have it in one's possession somewhere. So Dumbledore conjured 
up a chair from the storeroom, as not having enough chairs must 
happen quite a bit. On the other hand, this makes one wonder why 
Sirius keeps around some manacles.....


> 
> Conjuring seems to be different from transfiguration - will we see 
> Harry, Ron, etal. taking a Conjuring Class in the future?  For that 
> matter, will they take a course in Wizard Duelling?
<snip>

Dueling seems to be taught in clubs. I'd guess it's more like a 
sport. In the future, someone might revive the Dueling club, I 
suppose...

Charmian




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 01:49:55 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:49:55 -0000
Subject: blue peter, etc - THANK YOU!!!!
In-Reply-To: <3A8DD3BC.DEEC34A@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <96klc3+mu58@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12469

OOOO OOOO OOOOOOO!! I just realised, I arrive in the UK the morning 
of March 12! I am going to buy the UK versions and I am going to 
watch Blue Peter!! Thank you SOOOOO much for posting this. 

British folks, could you please keep us all posted on any publicity 
stuff that will surround the release of these two books!? Thanks a 
million,

Heather


heidi wrote:
> JKR is going to be on a kids'
> show in the UK called Blue Peter for Comic
> Relief Day & the release of QUIDDITCH and FANTASTIC BEASTS 
> The url is 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/bluepeter/articles/article_rowling.shtml
> 
> Oh, those of you in the UK? We expect live posts of every single 
thing
> she says during this interview -and PLEASE let us know about any 
other
> publicity she does for the books.
> I am *crossing my fingers* for another online chat!
> ANd I know penny is *wishing and hoping* that these books are 
marked by
> Scholastic as FOR ALL AGES or FOR ADULTS so they can go on the REAL 
NYT
> list.




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sat Feb 17 01:56:41 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:56:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re : Weird names (back off topic)
Message-ID: <20010217015641.5D4CF36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12470

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From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 02:35:52 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:35:52 -0000
Subject: OT and kinda weird:  American-to-British translation please!!!!
In-Reply-To: <96kkua+hkov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ko28+cf99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12471

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kaitlin" <ReinaKata02 at y...> wrote:
> Hi folks, I need help with a project, and I think you guys can 
answer 
> me the fastest.
> When talking to a British person about "mileage," as in a car that 
> gets good mileage, would you actually call it mileage or would you 
> call it something else?
> I know I can count on you guys!
> Best wishes,
> Kaitlin

Not an actual Brit, but in all the UK car magazines they refer to it 
as "fuel consumption".
 High consumption= low gas mileage, a particularly damning charge 
against a vehicle as their petrol costs about 4x as much as our gas 
(!)




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Feb 17 02:48:06 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:48:06 -0700
Subject: Conjuring
In-Reply-To: <96kla5+p5h0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCEOGDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12472

Don't forget Dumbledore's prodigious conjuring in Prisoner of Azkaban,
Chapter 9:

>>>>>>>>>>>
Professor Dumbledore paused, about to leave the hall, and said, "Oh, yes,
you'll be needing..."

One casual wave of his wand and the long tables flew to the edges of the
hall and stood themselves against the walls; another wave, and the floor was
covered with hundreds of squashy purple sleeping bags.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 03:00:11 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:00:11 -0000
Subject: Peter vs. Sirius once again
In-Reply-To: <001501c0983d$777a3aa0$a9604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <96kpfr+mavt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12473

Katarzyna wrote:
"If it is possible (and easy!) to discover the last spell the wand 
performed, why isn't this procedure widely applied - also in Black's 
case?"

(Hi you guys. I have been so busy lately that, while I've tried to 
keep up on reading messages I've not had time to respond to them! 
Argh! Also I have NOT caught up on all messages so someone may have 
already posted their musings on this subject.)

So why didn't they use Priori Incantatem (PI) to see if Sirius was 
really guilty? 

Firstly there is the possibility that JKR didn't make it up until GoF 
and so it technically didn't "exist" before then. 

Secondly (and equally lame) is the idea that no one thought to use 
the spell. After all the scene seemed to speak for itself. A lot of 
people were dead and Sirius was there, and Peter wasn't. It did seem 
rather obvious to those who "witnessed" it I guess. 

Thirdly is an idea I had which is that indeed someone DID use PI on 
Sirius and indeed realised that he was innocent. This person also 
realised that a murderer was on the loose. Voldemort has just been 
destroyed. He/she really doesn't want to cause a panic (There's a 
derranged murderer on the run by the way). He/she also doesn't want 
to let on that they made a REALLY big blunder and sent the wrong 
person to Azkaban. In other words perhaps the whole thing is a big 
cover up.

Another interpretation of the above could be that someone inside the 
ministry helped to frame Sirius because he/she was a DE.

Fourthly maybe Sirius HAD killed someone last, and so the PI did in 
fact show AK as the last curse. It just wasn't the AK that they 
THOUGHT it was. (Maybe though this wouldn't work. Do all PI's of AK 
produce shades???)

Scott




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 17 03:04:34 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:04:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FF: Canon, fanon, apocrypha
References: <96k8r7+3cct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8DEA41.C1621CDC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12474

heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu wrote:

> In which category are those of you who are "canon purists" going to
> put things like the upcoming JKR books Quidditch through the ages and
> Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them - what if the Quidditch one says
> "In 1978, 7th year Gryffindor Chaser James Potter...." or "Fantastic
> Beasts" says "Rubeus Hagrid, who started at Hogwarts as a Gryffindor
> in 1942..."?
> And what about the video games (including the spells one) which is
> coming out later this year, where JKR has approved all the
> "fact"things in there?
> Will those become Canon?

Well, that was sort of my original question. I think if the author says
something, that something then is in a class by itself--not in The
Books, but coming from the source all the same. And I think in these
days of readily available transcripts and such, the spoken word (in an
official capacity, like a chat or interview) is almost as "published" as
a published text.

I think if JKR approves it, it should be accepted as fact, but my
question was, how do we refer to facts stated by JKR which do not appear
in the book? I don't think "canon" is the appropriate term, in which
case the answer to your question is, "No (sort of)."

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 17 03:18:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:18:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter vs. Sirius once again
References: <96kpfr+mavt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8DED6D.A8159A3E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12475

Scott wrote:

> Fourthly maybe Sirius HAD killed someone last, and so the PI did in
> fact show AK as the last curse. It just wasn't the AK that they
> THOUGHT it was. (Maybe though this wouldn't work. Do all PI's of AK
> produce shades???)

I'd argued before that not all spells cast with a wand are necessarily
going to produce tangible "echoes" during priori incantatem. Witness the
screams that come from Voldemort's wand; we as readers happen to know
that was because he'd cast Cruciatis (sp?) on someone, but if you had no
idea, the priori incantatem would not enlighten you. Perhaps the
wizarding world is well acquainted with the limitations, and thus does
not use it except in situations where they are simply confirming a
strong suspicion (i.e., the Dark Mark). With a street full of witnesses
and the Secret Keeper arrangement known (they thought), perhaps priori
incantatem was not thought necessary.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 03:30:14 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:30:14 -0000
Subject: Canon? If she said it... / creatures or what?
In-Reply-To: <96k2a9+hcrs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96kr86+h2ov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12476

Steve wrote:
"I consider things JKR says in interviews to be canon. Trouble is, 
when she says things like "Good catch!" about someone noticing Mrs. 
Figg mentioned or "Of course!" when she places someone in Gryffindor, 
it just makes us speculate and wonder all the more!" 

--Right! Deep down however, even if we don't acknowledge it, this is 
one of the best parts. I mean what would we do without speculation???

I have in the past had a hard time distigushing interviews, and 
fanon, and canon. Not exactly with big things but with small things 
too. For instance I KNEW that Hagrid was a Hufflepuff. I searched and 
searched the books, but to no avail. I now realise that it was the 
reference in PS/SS and the HP Scholastic Quiz that had given me that 
impression. However for a while I was sure it had come from canon.

There are other characters, such as Draco who are VERY different, 
almost opposites in fanon than in Canon.  I don't find that as hard 
to kept straight though. 

The thing about Fanon is that I think it makes you read things into 
the Canon that you otherwise wouldn't. Like say H/H relationships. 
(I'M KIDDING! Sit down Eb, Penny!) I do think however that stories 
like PoU or ASA  are apt to change one's perceptions of the H/H in 
canon. (That is not a bad thing, but it is a reality. It CAN change 
peoples perceptions) 

Scott
Who is afraid that the last paragraph enabled him to stick his foot 
so far into his mouth that he is now choking...




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Sat Feb 17 04:14:13 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:14:13 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  accents/casting Lockhart
Message-ID: <a8.113d4444.27bf5495@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12477

The talk of English actors managing American accents brought to my mind one 
of the best examples:  Kenneth Branagh in Dead Again.

And speaking of Branagh, I bet he could pull off the Lockhart role quite well.

Love & Light
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Feb 17 04:33:48 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:33:48 -0600
Subject: Hogwarts population - I have proof!
References: <96kb95+tmus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8DFF2C.44918B57@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12478

Hi there --

rlpenar at yahoo.com wrote:

> I know, I know, it's been brought up a million times....but I was
> reading my snazzy new adult-cover UK edition of PoA (thank you to my
> sweetie for the V-day gift!) and during the Gryffindor/Slytherin
> match, it states that 3/4 of the students were wearing crimson
> (Hufflepuffs & Ravenclaws rooted for Gryffindor) and then when Harry
> is flying, he looks down and sees 200 Slytherins wearing green (Snape
> was in the front row wearing green robes). I'm going to go out on a
> limb here and say that all of the Slytherins were rooting for their
> own team, which means that we can just do some elementery algebra
> (1/4 of the students is 200 students, therefore there are 800
> students total), and......YEE HAW! We have a number of Hogwarts
> students: 800.

Well, Simon answered this very eloquently indeed.  Wanna do the Hogwarts
FAQ instead of me Simon??!  <g>  Seriously, this topic has been debated
quite a bit in the past, and there's plenty of inconsistent evidence all
the way around.  Being one of those in the 300 students camp, I would
say that the above incident can be discounted if one considers that
there are likely alumni, Hogsmeade residents, parents and others who
donned green to support Slytherin in the match.

Simon said:

> Various people have suggested reasons involving disproportionate year
> sizes, but I have yet to see any reason that is convincing. If the Harry's year is
> small because of the Voldemort effect then so also should be the years
> above him and also Ginny's year as these are the children born while Voldemort
> carried out his reign of terror. Year groups could vary but why not by more
> than a factor of 2. To get the population up to 1000, from having 50 in
> Harry's year, requires year sizes of over 150. Which is a totally massive
> leap from the suggested size of Harry's year.
>
That's exactly what I think Simon.  I remain completely unconvinced that
Harry's year is *that* disproportionately small.  It just doesn't make
sense to me.

> Yet, as Dai said earlier, Hogwarts will seem empty unless it has 1000
> people in it and may even seem quite empty with this number in it. It is described
> as being massive and, as pointed out, it takes ages to get from one part of
> the castle to another. The corridors are described as being busy and this
> could only happen with a large number of people in a small space.
>
What if the castle (built by the founders during a completely different
age) is too large for the current wizarding population?  I guess what I
mean is: couldn't the wizarding population level have shrunk in the 1000
years since the school was founded?

If there are 250 Gryffindors, how on earth does Hermione always have
several tables to spread out her books & homework in the Common Room?
How would the Trio *ever* find it deserted if there were that many
students?

> But I pity the poor people having to sit through the sorting. Taking
> an average of one minute per student, which seems reasonable, and a
> year size of 150 (about equal to 1000/7) gives a sorting of 2 and a
> half hours. To get the sorting in at under 30 minutes would requires
> each student to go from being lined up to having been sorted in 12
> seconds, which would be one incredible feat.

Thanks to our resident statistician!  I agree that this also makes no
sense in the context of a larger student body.  Along with a number of
other things I might add!

> Now for another argument I have not seen before. At the end of first year
> each house had around 400 points. This seems to be a very low total.
>
I haven't seen this one either!  Something else to add to the FAQ.  Must
get on that one -- it's my last one.

Penny
(who is firmly convinced that JKR spouted off "about 1000 students"
without giving it *any* thought!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Feb 17 04:41:24 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:41:24 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Questions...
References: <96k33e+eqgh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8E00F3.73D8A4EA@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12479

Hi --

sadie_row at hotmail.com wrote:

> <Gathers courage>
Okay, I did as suggested and searched through
> the archived posts, looking for anything that might explain the
> rationale behind a Harry/Hermione pairing. There isn't a lot of
> canonical
> evidence offered, except for the kiss from the end of GoF.

Actually, you must not have searched very hard, dear!  <g>  I know my
posts are full of canonical evidence for FITD (not necessarily H/H
getting together in canon, but plenty of canon evidence that Hermione's
feelings can be interpreted to be for Harry and not Ron).

The "Potential Romance Pairings" FAQ has been written.  I'm hopeful that
we will have some uploading of FAQs in the next few weeks (I know, I
know ... we've been saying that).  The techies on the FAQs Committee are
hard at work (I'm sure).

You will probably see alot more of that evidence in the FAQ since I've
done the job of going through the archives & summarizing the positions
of all the various "ships," but believe me, there *is* canon evidence on
the H/H side.

> Now, when I read that scene I believed (and continue to believe) that
> Hermione was only able to kiss Harry because it wasn't an "I'm in love
> with you" kiss.  It was simply a kiss for a friend who had just gone
> through a terrible time and she was glad that he was alive.   However,
> if she had kissed  Ron
 well, that would be a different story,
> wouldn't it? Just my thoughts on that particular  subject.

Hmmm .... well some of the H/H'ers take a different view.  She's 14!
Most of the 14 yr old girls polled by our members have all attributed
far more significance to the "Kiss" than lots of the adults.  Different
perspective.  The H/H types also don't agree amongst themselves as to
the meaning of the "Kiss."  I fall into the "it probably has more
meaning than some give it credit for, but it's not the *best* H/H
evidence out there" camp.

> It seems like there really isn't anything in the canon to back
> H/H up and so I remain unchanged in my confidence about Ms. Hermione
> Weasley.

Gotta look at subtext.  Surface reading isn't enough sometimes.
Hermione likes Harry -- it's all in the subtext.  <g>


> I'm curious (this is for you H/Her's out there). Would
> Draco/Hermione be preferable over Ron/Hermione? This is, of course, if
> you couldn't have Harry/Hermione. (sorry about all of the ?/?'s)

D/H is by far preferable to me than R/H.  I see R/H as being completely
& totally incompatible though.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 04:47:08 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:47:08 -0000
Subject: Into the Chamber...
Message-ID: <96kvoc+k3da@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12480

In re-reading the CoS today I came up with a question. Just how did 
they know it was Ginny who was taken into the chamber. 

If there really ARE 1,000 students at Hogwarts it would certainly 
take time to find out which one it was. Also it seems that most 
students didn't event know what was going on. 

So how did they know?

Scott




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat Feb 17 04:57:35 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:57:35 -0000
Subject: , Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
In-Reply-To: <00a601c0951b$f1195a00$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <96l0bv+j2uq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12481

Rina wrote:

"Maybe there's a equivalant school where young wizard kids would 
learn appropriate spells/charms that would help them overcome speech, 
or hearing, or walking disorders.

I'd like to think that Hogwarts would have MEPs (I just love that 
idea, Ender <g>) and appropriate accomodations, rather than a fix-
all. After all, it has been brought up that they don't advocate 
cosmetic (teeth) fixing unless it's been directly impacted by a 
spell, and they don't seem to fix eyesight just on a whim. Maybe 
things could be done so that a nonverbal child could direct thoughts 
for spells?" 

Given the schools' long-standing habit of chucking the speech 
therapists into broom closets, perhaps this is where all 
the "resource" teachers are at Hogwarts.  Granted, it would be a 
magically enhanced broom closet complete with all the materials a 
school SLP would dream of, but quietly hidden away due to never-
ending shortage of space.  All magical SLP's are required to earn 
their SMILE's (Special Mediwizarding In Language Education), a 
stringent program requiriing 12 OWL's, 6 NEWT's and 3 RAT's (Really 
Awful Tests).  All SLP's are bound by the Code of Ethics, which 
clearly states that no Magical fix-it will be used in remediating any 
disorder.

Dumbledore used his wand to write the words to the school song in 
P/SS, so I would consider this to be wizarding Augmentative 
Communication, a very viable alternative to spoken language.
 
Rina also wrote:

"But doesn't this kind of head into the wizards staying separate from 
Muggles because Muggles would want magic solutions to everything?"

I either read this in another book, (or maybe these) or heard it in a 
movie.  Anyway, it sounds very familiar.

Trina (a very non-magical school SLP, who is fortunate to share an 
actual room with the other SLP, but who has administered a test to a 
3 yo in a room full of filing cabinets and a copier with her back up 
against the door.) 




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 05:00:17 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 05:00:17 -0000
Subject: Changing as she goes along.
Message-ID: <96l0h1+nh9m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12482

Just how much does JKR change/add things as she's writing. Also how 
much is planned ahead. The case in point which seems to have been 
discussed lately was why Filch is at Hogwarts if there are so many 
House Elves.

Wasn't it stated that SPEW was NOT originally planned but that Jo 
added it in whilst writing GoF? 

It seems pretty obvious that Dobby is a part of the overall plot, and 
Winky also seems to be. What about the other house elves. When Jo 
created Dobby did she think about HE's being at Hogwarts. 

How much did she plan? I think that, whilst she always knew there 
were HE's in the wizarding world she had never considered that there 
were any at Hogwarts. If she had then Filch would most likely have a 
very different role or not be in the books at all. He's not very 
central to the plot besides being a great comic relief character...

Question: Is Filch an "overseer" of the House Elves?




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 05:11:47 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 05:11:47 -0000
Subject: OT:Re: , Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
In-Reply-To: <96l0bv+j2uq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96l16j+qm49@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12483

Trina wrote:
"I'd like to think that Hogwarts would have MEPs (I just love that 
idea, Ender <g>) and appropriate accomodations, rather than a fix-
all."

Oh that's a REALLY interesting thought. Would they fix these 
disablities or simple provide for them? IMO some of the most 
inspirational people I've ever seen or meet are those with 
diablities. I'm not saying that it is "good" to have disablities. I'm 
just saying that it OBVIOUSLY changes one's life. Some would say for 
the worse, but perhaps somehow it doesn't make life worse. It allows 
those people to experience life on a level that many of us will never 
have. I know that there are A LOT of things I take for granted. 

Scott 




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Feb 17 05:12:25 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:12:25 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: , Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
Message-ID: <004001c098a0$3753c500$b2459fac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12484

Trina wrote:

<<All magical SLP's are required to earn 
their SMILE's (Special Mediwizarding In Language Education), a 
stringent program requiriing 12 OWL's, 6 NEWT's and 3 RAT's (Really 
Awful Tests).  All SLP's are bound by the Code of Ethics, which 
clearly states that no Magical fix-it will be used in remediating any 
disorder.>>

I like this a whole lot. <g> It's perfect - exactly what I'd envision. 

<<Dumbledore used his wand to write the words to the school song in 
P/SS, so I would consider this to be wizarding Augmentative 
Communication, a very viable alternative to spoken language.>>

I never even thought about that! Guess it's been much too long since I read the first book. <g> 

<<I either read this in another book, (or maybe these) or heard it in a movie.  Anyway, it sounds very familiar.>>

I think it's from PS/SS. <g> But I know it was mentioned somewhere in the series.

Rina
(SLP major who feels like she's getting ready for her first RAT next week - tell me honestly, Trina. Do SLPs really use trigonometry and physics? <g>)
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Feb 17 05:25:01 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:25:01 -0700
Subject: Brit Spelling question
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEOHDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12485

In comparing the UK version of Philosopher's Stone to the US version
(Sorcerer's Stone), I found that while the US version uses the word
"practice" throughout the book, the UK version uses two spellings of the
word : "practise / practice" -- specific example being in UK-PS page 28
(practise) and then UK-PS page 79 (practice).  Is there a different
definition that corresponds to the different spellings, or is it just
acceptable to use both in the UK?

SML

=======================================
"All suffering comes from a person's
inability to sit still and be alone."
=======================================




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Feb 17 05:54:57 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:54:57 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Changing as she goes along.
In-Reply-To: <96l0h1+nh9m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEOKDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12486

Filch is probably an overseer of the House Elves.  After all, when you have
a castle as huge as Hogwarts, with hundreds of kids tracking in dirt &
whatnot, you need plenty of people to clean the floors, stoke the
fireplaces, do the laundry, cook, schlep the luggage and props around, etc
etc.

We know an author simply CAN'T put in all the details we would love to know
about, since the book would be enormous and that would make the publishers
unhappy (even though it would delight the fans).  There's a whole mob of us
who want to know every working detail in the Wizarding World (remember the
Great Bathroom Debate from several months ago?).

I think we can safely say that JKR has the skeleton of the entire 7-book
series, and fleshes it out with scenes and details as she goes along.  For
example, after the first book, a lot of people questioned the fact that
while Harry received presents from a lot of people, he was never shown
GIVING presents to anyone.  Voila... in the next books he was shown to be a
generous gift giver.  And there was so much confusion over how to pronounce
Hermione's name that JKR very sweetly laid down the law in Goblet of Fire by
having Hermione try to teach Viktor how to say it.

There are also scenes which she had planned, but had to jettison.  I think
that she mentioned in one interview that the Rita Skeeter character evolved
from being a character related to the Weasleys to being an outsider, because
JKR's original character developed a fatal plot hole halfway through the
writing of GoF.  I do remember her saying that she had to do a major
re-write on GoF because of some problem with a character.

SML

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:harry_potter00 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:00 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Changing as she goes along.


Just how much does JKR change/add things as she's writing. Also how
much is planned ahead. The case in point which seems to have been
discussed lately was why Filch is at Hogwarts if there are so many
House Elves.

Wasn't it stated that SPEW was NOT originally planned but that Jo
added it in whilst writing GoF?

It seems pretty obvious that Dobby is a part of the overall plot, and
Winky also seems to be. What about the other house elves. When Jo
created Dobby did she think about HE's being at Hogwarts.

How much did she plan? I think that, whilst she always knew there
were HE's in the wizarding world she had never considered that there
were any at Hogwarts. If she had then Filch would most likely have a
very different role or not be in the books at all. He's not very
central to the plot besides being a great comic relief character...

Question: Is Filch an "overseer" of the House Elves?



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From megssokeane at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 06:08:48 2001
From: megssokeane at yahoo.com (megssokeane at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:08:48 -0000
Subject: newbie and research
Message-ID: <96l4hg+p2s4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12487

Hi everyone--

I'm new to the list and just wanted to say a quick hello.
Have enjoyed browsing through the posts, both past and present as a 
fan of the Harry Potter books.  For some research I'm doing, I would 
really appreciate it if I hear from you why the Harry Potter series is 
appealing to you as an adult (my e-mail is megssokeane at yahoo.com)  
Thanks...
 




From megssokeane at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 06:15:52 2001
From: megssokeane at yahoo.com (megssokeane at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:15:52 -0000
Subject: house elves
Message-ID: <96l4uo+uit5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12488

I always thought that Rowling knew there were HE at Hogwarts, but 
didn't plan on having them be as intregal to the plot until this book 
(with the exception of Dobby, of course.)  It's interesting b/c 
Hermione is taking on a kind of feminist cause (unionize the domestic 
workers!) and the results that continue to unfold show how complex 
such an undertaking is (as is the case with real life.)




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Feb 17 06:19:18 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:19:18 -0000
Subject: FF: Canon, fanon, apocrypha
In-Reply-To: <96k8r7+3cct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96l556+f8f2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12489

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> In which category are those of you who are "canon purists" going to 
> put things like the upcoming JKR books Quidditch through the ages 
and 
> Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them - 
> And what about the video games (including the spells one) which is 
> coming out later this year, where JKR has approved all 
> the "fact"things in there?
> Will those become Canon?

I don't want to give the impression that I dictate "canon." I simply 
dictate what I put into the Lexicon, and what I put in the Lexicon is 
what I personally consider canon. 

I include anything that has come directly from JKR to be canon. 
By "directly" I mean that she wrote it, as in wrote the book, or 
stated it personally. The "approved" stuff I will take under 
consideration once I see it, but I don't promise to use it. I don't 
do that because I feel that they are any less valid--I'd have to see 
it to make that determination. It's just that I can't imagine being 
able to find the time to include all the information that will be in 
those Electronic Arts titles. I'd probably have to play the whole 
thing through taking notes, and I am pretty sure I won't have time to 
do that. So I may very well just stick with the book information.

With that in mind: FB and QTA being written by JKR herself, therefore 
they are, as far as the Lexicon goes, as canon as anything else and I 
can't WAIT to get my hot little hands on them! That's liable to be a 
ton o' work, but what fun...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
sorta canonish...well, *I* like it, anyway...
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Feb 17 06:42:08 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:42:08 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts population - I have proof!
In-Reply-To: <3A8DFF2C.44918B57@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <96l6g0+7qut@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12490


> 
> Well, Simon answered this very eloquently indeed.  Wanna do the 
Hogwarts
> FAQ instead of me Simon??!  <g>  Seriously, this topic has been 
debated
> quite a bit in the past, and there's plenty of inconsistent 
evidence all
> the way around.  Being one of those in the 300 students camp, I 
would
> say that the above incident can be discounted if one considers that
> there are likely alumni, Hogsmeade residents, parents and others who
> donned green to support Slytherin in the match.

And I again point out that each time Harry sees such large numbers 
it's when he's facing something frightening (okay, he's a Gryffindor, 
so it makes him nervous more than scared...). Since we observe the 
castle and the events in it through his point of view almost 
exclusively in the books, and since there are a number of other 
incidents where what is described is clearly exaggeration, I feel 
that those big numbers are inflated. Harry sees 200 Slytherin 
supporters before a big Quidditch match against Slytherin. He sees 
1200 seats at the Yule Ball just before he has to dance in front of 
all those people. I know this isn't proof of anything, but I see it 
as providing reasonable doubt.


> 
> > Yet, as Dai said earlier, Hogwarts will seem empty unless it has 
1000
> > people in it and may even seem quite empty with this number in 
it. It is described
> > as being massive and, as pointed out, it takes ages to get from 
one part of
> > the castle to another. The corridors are described as being busy 
and this
> > could only happen with a large number of people in a small space.
> >
> What if the castle (built by the founders during a completely 
different
> age) is too large for the current wizarding population?  I guess 
what I
> mean is: couldn't the wizarding population level have shrunk in the 
1000
> years since the school was founded?

Also, while the castle is large, the actual inhabited areas might be 
in a fairly compact area. Why locate classrooms far apart from each 
other, with the few exceptions of Divination and Potions? The rest 
seem to be along a couple of corridors on the second and third 
floors, near the top of the staircase. Most of the rest of the place 
is given over to who knows what, stuff to explore, trophy rooms and 
storage and hidden chambers and strange mirrors.

I agree that the Quidditch stadium would be pretty empty, no matter 
how big it is, with only 250 people there. Add a few supporters, 
maybe a hundred, and we're still talking a tiny crowd. And the field 
itself has to be huge to allow a game of that nature to take place. 
Maybe their stands are just in one place, along on long side of the 
pitch, or maybe there's a section on each side. 


> 
> > But I pity the poor people having to sit through the sorting. 
Taking
> > an average of one minute per student, which seems reasonable, and 
a
> > year size of 150 (about equal to 1000/7) gives a sorting of 2 and 
a
> > half hours. To get the sorting in at under 30 minutes would 
requires
> > each student to go from being lined up to having been sorted in 12
> > seconds, which would be one incredible feat.
> 
> Thanks to our resident statistician!  I agree that this also makes 
no
> sense in the context of a larger student body.  Along with a number 
of
> other things I might add!

And add to that the required size of each house table with 250 kids 
sitting at it. They'd never hear Dumbledore speak! There was no 
reference to his casting a Sonorus spell on himself. And Harry et al 
can certainly see the head table very well, so they can't be a 
hundred feet away.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a page about this whole question
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Feb 17 06:54:38 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:54:38 -0000
Subject: Changing as she goes along.
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEOKDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <96l77e+mado@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12491

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> Filch is probably an overseer of the House Elves.  After all, when 
you have
> a castle as huge as Hogwarts, with hundreds of kids tracking in 
dirt &
> whatnot, you need plenty of people to clean the floors, stoke the
> fireplaces, do the laundry, cook, schlep the luggage and props 
around, etc
> etc.

I see a very fundamental difference between what Filch does and what 
the house elves do. They are NOT seen by the students if they're 
doing their job correctly. They do the mundane and basically mindless 
tasks. They have no interaction with the students at all, they do 
their work behind the scenes. Nearly Headless Nick says "You're not 
supposed to see them, are you? That's the mark of a good house-elf, 
isn't it, that you don't know it's there?"

Filch, on the other hand, is a staff member and an authority figure. 
He does far more than clean the floors. He administers punishments, 
he maintains order, he check passes to Hogsmeade at the front 
door...he interacts with students all the time. He also manages the 
cleaning and things like that, sure, and I suppose he might be the 
one the house-elves report to.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From meg at fenya.net  Sat Feb 17 07:11:35 2001
From: meg at fenya.net (Meghan)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:11:35 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter vs. Sirius once again
References: <96kpfr+mavt@eGroups.com> <3A8DED6D.A8159A3E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A8E2427.35C9D02E@fenya.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12492

Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> 
> Scott wrote:
> 
> > Fourthly maybe Sirius HAD killed someone last, and so the PI did in
> > fact show AK as the last curse. It just wasn't the AK that they
> > THOUGHT it was. (Maybe though this wouldn't work. Do all PI's of AK
> > produce shades???)
> 
> I'd argued before that not all spells cast with a wand are necessarily
> going to produce tangible "echoes" during priori incantatem. Witness the
> screams that come from Voldemort's wand; we as readers happen to know
> that was because he'd cast Cruciatis (sp?) on someone, but if you had no
> idea, the priori incantatem would not enlighten you. Perhaps the
> wizarding world is well acquainted with the limitations, and thus does
> not use it except in situations where they are simply confirming a
> strong suspicion (i.e., the Dark Mark). With a street full of witnesses
> and the Secret Keeper arrangement known (they thought), perhaps priori
> incantatem was not thought necessary.


And for some reason I thought you had to have an exact twin core to do
it in the first place? O.o  

I don't have GoF with me [>_< In storage.  Since November.  Because we
thought we'd have the new house by now.  And you don't know how tempted
I am to simply suck it up and buy a used copy] but I think I remember
something about Dumbles saying something to the effect that a) Priori
Incantatem was a RARE effect, and ONLY occured when two wands were made
with the same cores.  In Voldemort and Harry's case, the feathers from
Fawkes.

[And we will all pause, and not go there, about how Riddle was suited to
a feather from DUMBLEDORE'S phoenix, and also where the heck he had his
wand while in hiding/without a body. =P]

meg
crosseyed with sleepiness
-- 
Meg -- meg at fenya.net -- http://www.fenya.net
AIM: LazuliSong ICQ: lazulisong 
D N Angel, Card Captor Sakura, General Evil Things



From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Feb 17 07:09:57 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:09:57 -0000
Subject: , Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
In-Reply-To: <96l0bv+j2uq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96l845+r8b8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12493

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:

> Rina also wrote:
> 
> "But doesn't this kind of head into the wizards staying separate 
from 
> Muggles because Muggles would want magic solutions to everything?"
> 
> I either read this in another book, (or maybe these) or heard it in 
a 
> movie.  Anyway, it sounds very familiar.



In SS,  Hagrid tells Harry about the job of the MOM and Harry 
asks, "Why?"

"Why? Blimey, Harry, everyone'd be wantin' magic solutions to their 
problems. Nah, we're best left alone." SS-5

Doreen_Iowa




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb 17 07:21:02 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:21:02 -0000
Subject: OT: Brit Spelling question
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEOHDAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <96l8ou+app1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12494

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

<< In comparing the UK version of Philosopher's Stone to the US 
version (Sorcerer's Stone), I found that while the US version uses 
the word "practice" throughout the book, the UK version uses two 
spellings of the word : "practise / practice" -- specific example 
being in UK-PS page 28 (practise) and then UK-PS page 79 (practice).  
Is there a different definition that corresponds to the different 
spellings, or is it just acceptable to use both in the UK? >>

**Practice is a noun meaning the habitual performance of something 
("the practice of transfiguration", "Dr Simon Branford has a practice 
in the village," "it's not my usual practice to use Floo powder".  

**To Practise is a verb.  It means to carry out habitually or repeat 
for the purposes of learning ("Hermione practised her spells every 
day," or as an adjective: "Penny is a practising lawyer," "Draco is a 
practised liar.")  

In the US, you use 'practice' for both meanings. I would also use the 
US version for "Hermione practiced her spells," above (but that's 
probably just my ignorance).  

As an aside, this is a type of HP-related question that we *could* 
and should move over to OTChatter.  There are few HP-related topics 
that will be discussed there rather than on the main list.

Check out the OTChatter group here: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

Neil

_____________________________________
 
Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)
 
"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]
 
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From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Sat Feb 17 07:33:35 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:33:35 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter vs. Sirius once again
In-Reply-To: <96kpfr+mavt@eGroups.com>
References: <001501c0983d$777a3aa0$a9604cd5@default> <96kpfr+mavt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <pr9s8ton6bce5tahqh3g0aqjl17dg7n70g@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12495

On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:00:11 -0000, "Scott" <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Another interpretation of the above could be that someone inside the 
>ministry helped to frame Sirius because he/she was a DE.

Interesting point. I have posted a similar theory a while ago on the
PoU list. I still have the gut feeling that Crouch Sr. or someone else
wasn't really interested in proving Sirius' innocence but wanted to
have him out of the way. And Azkaban seemed to be the perfect means to
achieve this goal, since most people go mad in there within weeks or
months.

>Fourthly maybe Sirius HAD killed someone last, and so the PI did in 
>fact show AK as the last curse. It just wasn't the AK that they 
>THOUGHT it was. (Maybe though this wouldn't work. Do all PI's of AK 
>produce shades???)

Even if all PI's of AK produce shades, it should have been Peter's
shade to come out of the wand, not the shade of some Death Eater
Sirius might have killed before confronting Peter in London. So I
think either JKR didn't think of PI before GoF - which I doubt,
because she said in an interview that the fact that Voldemort and
Harry share wand cores would become a major plot element later - or
someone jumped onto the occasion to get rid of Sirius once and for
all.

Monika


--
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html

Current book: Peg Kerr: The Wild Swans



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb 17 07:56:42 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:56:42 -0000
Subject: OT: "mileage/ADMIN: OT discussions
In-Reply-To: <96kkua+hkov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96larq+a552@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12496

Kaitlin wrote:

<< Hi folks, I need help with a project, and I think you guys can 
answer me the fastest. When talking to a British person 
about "mileage," as in a car that gets good mileage, would you 
actually call it mileage or would you call it something else? I know 
I can count on you guys!>>

Yes, we would call it mileage:  "What's the mileage like, mate?"  "It 
does 50 to the gallon with a following wind..."

***********ADMIN bit

[Neil, dons dented turquoise moderator bonnet on top of the hairnet 
still there from the other day] 

The only reason I'm responding to this online is so that I can give 
another mention to our newish OTChatter area (as portrayed in Jim's 
lovely, recent filk), where people can debate this sort of thing 
until the cows come home.  

Like I say, OTChatter is a fairly new club area, so only a handful of 
our 900 [cough! splutter!] members have joined up so far and they are 
lonely and bleating like little lambs for their friends. 

[Neil suddenly boggartises and becomes a sheepdog the size of a small 
caravan].  

(So... come along now, form an orderly flock...) RUFF, RUFF!  (.... 
that's it...)  WOOF! ...  (come along, sweet, fluffy, tasty-looking 
creatures...)  GROWL  (C'mon! c'mon! ...) SNIFF  ... into the 
enclosure labelled:  

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

Note: We'll soon be removing OT discussions from this list, so best 
to gambol over there ASAP if you don't want to end up in deep sh..., 
I mean sheep dip. <g>

Neil [wagging his tail and panting].  BTW, isn't anyone going to 
throw that stick?

_____________________________________
 
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Mechanimagus Moderator (ignition on)
 
"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]
 
The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:  
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Visit the Portkey for all the info on this club:
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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb 17 08:31:38 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:31:38 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Castle (was Re: Hogwarts population - I have proof!)
References: <96kb95+tmus@eGroups.com> <3A8DFF2C.44918B57@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c098bc$21928d20$793770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12497

Penny said:

<< What if the castle (built by the founders during a completely different
age) is too large for the current wizarding population?  I guess what I
mean is: couldn't the wizarding population level have shrunk in the 1000
years since the school was founded? >>

I think the answer to your last point is 'yes'.   However, re Hogwarts, my
view is that the castle has the ability to change its size, shape and
room-arrangement according to need:

"There were a hundred and forty-two staircases at Hogwarts: wide, sweeping
ones; narrow, rickety ones; some that led somewhere different on a Friday;
...<snip> ... and doors that weren't really doors at all, but solid walls
just pretending. It
was also very hard to remember where anything was, because it all seemed to
move around a lot...." (PS)

Perhaps areas that aren't used or that house smaller numbers of people are
contracted to a smaller size, sealed off (like the Chamber of Secrets) or
made 'invisible'.  It makes the Marauder's Map seem even more incredible, of
course, but is perhaps the reason for needing a map in the first place.  It
could also be that Filch, having no magical ability, needs Mrs Norris to
direct him around the castle, which would, otherwise, confuse him; in other
words, from a magical perspective, Filch is 'blind' and Mrs Norris is his
guide-cat.

We've talked before about the way Diagon Alley, for example, can co-exist
with the Muggle world, and there is a Muggle Hogwarts - a fixed, 'ruined'
castle - and a magical Hogwarts, which is, perhaps, sentient (like a
computer, with some functional hardware and some variable 'memory'
locations, and the ability to create virtual environments).  I'd suggest
that some of the rooms are part of the Muggle structure and some, like
Dumbledore's office or the room where the Mirror of Erised was stored, are
in a parallel, magical plane, which appears when required.

Now the only question is, where does the Castle keep its brain?.  If we
can't see where it keeps it, we're in trouble.

Neil

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Visit the Portkey for all the info on this club:
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From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb 17 08:36:44 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:36:44 -0000
Subject: Casting couch: Suggestions for Arthur etc.
In-Reply-To: <001501c09866$af946cc0$ba3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <96ld6s+9oo7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12498

Neil wrote:
> I had a look at the Cary Elwes pictures and I think he's much too 
young and pretty to play Lockhart.  Lockhart should be more sleazy, 
and perhaps in his 40s, not a bimboy.  I *really* can't think who 
could play him...<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I hadn't realized when I posted those, but they're both from some 
years ago.  I deleted one and put up another that's a bit more 
recent.  If you've seen "Shadow of The Vampire" he was the 
photographer.  That's about as recent a place to see him as any.  He 
was born Oct. '62, so he's close to the age you mention.  He's also 
an excellent comic actor; could probably do sleazy quite well...  
 
Neil:
> I have a suggestion for Arthur.  Again, I think Hugh Laurie is too 
young.  IMO, Molly and Arthur are both about 50.  Julie Walters is 50 
and so is the actor I have in mind - it's ex Dr Who, Peter Davison!  
I've added a double pic of him: endearing, slightly balding, tall 
(over 6ft), thin and wearing glasses in one the shots.  He's also 
blond, so could easily go redhead without looking silly.  I'm sure 
he's been mentioned before, but I can't find anything in the 
archives. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

He looks to be a very good possibility for Arthur, to me.  I've not 
seen a Dr Who ep with him yet; so far only Tom Baker...

Neil:
> I've been thinking.  If we assume Molly and Arthur are 50 in Book 
1, I'd say Snape, James & Lily, Remus and Sirius are all about 40.  
This means Rickman is about 15 years too old, but could just about 
get away with it (with make-up) and we should be thinking of people 
between 35 and 45 for these parts.  Clive Owen, who I suggested for 
Sirius, is 36.  
> Robbie Coltrane is about 50 (playing 65), Maggie Smith is 66 
(playing 70).<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yes, this has been bothering me as well.  Despite being told by JKR 
the true ages of McG and Dumble, they apparently do not 
physically 'look' these ages, yes?  What I mean is, even though McG 
is actually 70 y.o., she does not -look- like a 70 y.o. woman, 
correct?  If this is right, then the actors need only pass for 
whatever age the characters appear to be.  Which to me, would go 
against Rickman as Snape.  My mental images of the adults' ages are 
not too far from yours, Neil:  I saw Molly and Arthur somewhere in 
their 50s, the Marauders mid- to late thirties, Hagrid late 40s, McG 
in her early 60s, and Dumble around 75.  (These were my impressions 
only, and only from book one.)  I've made a mental adjustment to my 
picture of Hagrid, though the others are still pretty much the same. 

Neil:
> If I can jump to PoA again, my latest choice would be Wendy Craig 
for Sybill Trelawney.  I've put a really poor photo of Wendy in the 
Members' suggestions file. Don't all rush at once....<<<<<<<<<<<<

I went and looked; I can see Trelawney in that face...

> Finally - thinking of a role for Eddie Izzard in the film - there 
is only one part for him....the sexually ambiguous Professor Sinistra.
> 
> Neil

LOL!  Oh, he'd be beautiful, wouldn't he?  :sigh:  And don't you just 
know, we'll never even see Sinistra; perhaps he/she will make a cameo 
at the end of year feast in #7.....

Kelley




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 17 08:59:38 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:59:38 -0800
Subject: Quidditch - Leather Trousers - Sirius' Beard - Ages - More topics 
Message-ID: <3A8E3D79.7821CACF@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12499

Doreen Rich wrote:
> I dont think that Ron is not a Quidditch Player because he lacks a
> broom. In SS, once Harry is recognized as a valuable Quidditch
> Player, he is sent a broom, with a note attached from Professor
> McGonagall, saying not to open the package at the table. So... did
> she send him the broom? Or did someone else send it to him and I
>  forgot? (I am re-reading SS and have not come across who sent
> Harry the broom, yet)
> If McGonagall did send Harry the broom, she could send Ron one
> as well.

I don't recall SS ever telling us who sent Harry the Nimbus 2000, so I
suspect it was McGonagall with her own money, an act of favoritism that
she wanted plausible deniability for. She sent Harry the broom because
he was not merely a valuable player, but an *essential* one: the team
had no other Seeker: he was the only Seeker Gryffindor had! If Ron was
the only Keeper that Gryffindor had, McGonagall would have seen to it
that he got a broom somehow (maybe by a graduating student giving their
old broomstick to Ron on grounds of getting a newer one as a graduation
present), but Ron is obviously not the ONLY Keeper as long as Oliver is
around, and probably not even the BEST Keeper. The same goes for the
other positions: Gryffindor doesn't have a shortage of Beaters while
Fred and George are on the team, nor a shortage of Chasers while Katie,
Angie, and Alicia are there.

jennifer k wrote:
> oh, I really would like to watch those pictures by ms/mr/mrs
> Starling, I have read so much about them....especially the ones of
> Draco... so is there anyone out there to write the link to her/his
> pictures....? I would be so thankful :)

Last I looked, there was an unbearably irresistible Starling picture of
Draco on Cassandra Claire's author profile page on www.fanfiction.net
-- I'd include the URL, but ffnet seems to be down AGAIN. There are some
at the Paradigm of Uncertainty egroup:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty/files/FanArt/

Kimberly Moon wrote:
> Am I the only one who thinks Snape writes sappy poetry in his spare
> time?  Remember his potion portion of the puzzle (alliteration is
> fun!) in SS/PS - the poem accompanying the little bottles?  And this
> bit at the beginning of his first class...

I dunno about Snape writing poetry on a regular basis, but I have formed
a suspicion that he reads Shakespeare aloud to his Slytherins in their
common room (and perhaps other Poetry: they would like Yeats' "Second
Coming") and perhaps requires the older ones to participate in a
Shakespeare reading club.

Amy Z wrote:
> Although against all reason, I picture [Sirius] being clean-shaven
(sure,
> he hasn't had time or breath for a haircut since leaving Azkaban, but
> he hates a scratchy chin, so he does a quick wandless "Depilio!" every

> morning).

Long, long ago -- I think before GoF was released -- there was debate on
e-mail-lists about Why Was Sirius Beardless when he escaped from
Azkaban, a place not well equipped with razors? Someone suggested that
he was at least half Native American and (therefore?) naturally
beardless. My theory was that, back in the good old days when all his
friends were still alive, he awoke one morning beside a pretty young
witch (not an uncommon event), but she complained about his stubble
scratching her, so he (gallantly? humorously?) cast a Beard-Be-Gone
Charm on his face. He hadn't remembered to take it off yet a day or two
later when everything went all to hell.

Gwen lee_hillman wrote:
> JKR interview: She said that Dumbledore is 150, and that
> McGonagall is 70--but did she actually SAY that wizards
> have longer lifespans? I assumed that Dumbledore's advanced age
> has to do with working with Nick Flaumel on the Philospher's
> Stone, not with any natural tendency to live longer.

Yes. She said //Wizards have longer lifespans than Muggles -- Harry
doesn't know that yet.//

She implied that they also age slower, by telling us that McGonagall is
'a sprightly seventy' when everyone has read the description of her with
black hair and so on and assumed she was only 50-ish. I expect that
Molly Weasley could also be 70.

But we still don't know whether 150 is a normal age for a wizard to
still be working at (or still be living at!), as Dumbledore could be
living longer and aging slower than normal wizards. He could have been
sharing Flamel's Elixir as you said -- no more Elixir after end of SS
would explain why he is looking older in GoF. The long lifespan might be
the result of carrying magic inside oneself, and Dumbledore the greatest
wizard carries the most magic and lives the longest. Or he might just
have particularly healthy genes, like that Muggle woman in France who
lived to 123 years old. Him looking older in GoF could be the result of
stress or simply that Harry, growing up, is more observant.

Milz wrote:
> But, I thought Morgana from the Chocolate Frog cards was female. I
> don't have the books with me at this moment, but didn't say he had a
> number of 'her' cards already and gave it to Harry?

I thought Morgana on the Famous Wizards and Witches card is Morgan le
Fay from the story of King Arthur, in which case she is not only female,
but a sexpot.

Jeanne jsommer wrote:
> By the way, aren't there an awful lot of orphans -- perhaps that's
> why no one thought to ask Neville about why he lives with his
> grandmother.

It actually makes sense for there to be so many orphans, because so many
people were killed during the Voldemort years. Some of the people killed
were children or entire families and some were adults who didn't have
young children, but some were adults whose young children were left as
orphans. Also, if there were any couples sentenced to Azkaban who had
children, those children would also need foster families. I wonder if
the wizarding community of Britain has any MoM Department of Children's
Social Services or Family Court, or do they leave it informally up to
relatives and neighbors to volunteer to foster a child?

PS, I never noticed a comparison between Lily and Mrs. Crouch until you
pointed it out.

Ebony wrote:
> Make [Draco] a Scorpio or a Capricorn, *please*.

**I** am a Scorpio (Sun, with Taurus Moon and Capricorn Rising). I
suppose canon Draco could be a Scorpio, but WE'RE NOT COMPLICATED ENOUGH
to be fanon Draco.

> And why does it seem as if JKR and her fans are situating a lot of
these
> birthdays in the spring and the summer?  Is no one born during the
Hogwarts
> school year?

JKR: Hermione, Sept 19, during the school year. Angelina, one week
before the Goblet of Fire drawing right around Halloween, during the
school year.

Fans: speaking for myself, I put Harry, Susan Bones, and the Death Eater
brats all in the same summer because they were conceived right around
the same time. That'll be in installment 5 of my Lilyfic.

Celeste Chang wrote:
> What do you guys think Draco's birthday is then? I thought he was a
> Cancer or a Scorpio... he seems to fit both descriptions. But I
> thought he'd be older than Harry...

**I** think his birthday is June 24, 1980, which is 3 degrees of Cancer,
and one month plus one week older than Harry.

bbennett at j... wrote:
> I realize you guys are having fun figuring this all out, but can you
> imagine what Hermione would think about it? She probably
> ranks star charting as only slightly more reliable than divination

Remember, they study Astronomy for all seven years. Hermione must be
good at star charts even if she doesn't believe that they predict the
future. I assume that the reason for studying so much Astronomy must be
that the positions of planets, moons, and distant galaxies influence the
magical energies of each moment, which could affect spells -- under some
influences, some spells will be less likely to work or more likely to
work or more likely to blow up in your face or just need some adjusting
for the environment.

 "Caius Marcius" <coriolanus wrote:
> the number four in ancient numerology signified the world (i.e., the
> four corners of the earth), and  the number three represented the
> Triune God.  So three times four signifies God's intervention in the
> terrestrial domain (so does three plus four =  hence the multiple
> references to seven in the Revelations:

The number Seven has long been considered a very magical number. I
believe the reason is because there are seven astrological planets --
that is, objects seen with the naked eye to move regularly in the sky.
Granted, it can also be four (the four alchemical Elements) plus three
(past, present, future). Note: I heard an archaeologist lecturer say
that the Babylonian phrase usually translated as 'ruler of the four
corners of the world' might really be 'ruler of the four riverbanks'..

Twelve is the twelve astrological constellations. Granted, the
constellations were invented by people, other cultures make different
constellations out of the same starts, but the reason our Western
Culture chose to have 12 of them along the ecliptic is because of the
average twelve months per year, with 'month' meaning a moon cycle.

In your Bible Study, you would want to remember Seven candlesticks on
the Menorah in the Temple and Twelve sons of Jacob leading to Twelve
tribes.

Stephanie Malfoy wrote:
> My english teacher goes on and on and on about the
> significance of the number 3, and we are about to start Macbeth <vbg>
> Anyways, she looks as it is an evil thing

If she really thinks that the number 3 is an evil thing, ask her if she
means that the Christian Trinity is evil.

Meghan wrote:
> And for some reason I thought you had to have an exact twin core
> to do [Priori Incantatem] in the first place? O.o

No. When wands that have twin cores try to fight each other, they can
make Priori Incantatem instead of what their humans wanted them to do.
But Priori Incantatem is a charm that any mage with a wand can cast on
any wand deliberately. Amos Diggory did PI on the wand that Winky was
holding, to show that it had cast the Dark Mark. The PI in the duel was
many spells in reverse chronological order, but I am not at all sure if
PI as a charm can bring out another spell after it brings out the very
last one cast.

Doreen Rich wrote:
> In SS,  Hagrid tells Harry about the job of the MOM and Harry
> asks, "Why?"
> "Why? Blimey, Harry, everyone'd be wantin' magic solutions to their
> problems. Nah, we're best left alone." SS-5

That is what Hagrid said, and it probably is what Hagrid was told when
he was young, and it might be what all wizarding young-uns are told, but
I suspect it is only an excuse, and the real reason is that the
wizarding folk are scared of being harmed by jealous/fearful Muggles.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb 17 09:46:49 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:46:49 -0000
Subject: Casting couch: Two suggestions for Lockhart (or, um,  Lucius)
Message-ID: <000c01c098c6$a4cfc400$753570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12500

Thanks to Kelley for that older picture of Cary Elwes... hmmm.

I've a feeling that these casting posts should move over to OTChatter, but for now...... 

Okay,  I've done some digging around and come up with a couple of great blond British actors who would be great for Gilderoy Lockhart in WB's CoS.  Also, when I looked at them, I thought that either of them could also play Lucius Malfoy.

My first thought was Sean Pertwee, son of ex Dr Who Jon Pertwee (anyone notice a theme developing in my choices?), because he is sometimes reminiscent of Danny Kaye (who - death aside - would be the perfect American Lockhart, if not him, then a young Gene Wilder).  I've added a pic of him to the Members' Suggestions folder in our Graphics club.  Actually, he also looks a lot like his father.

A bit more digging around and I came across the perfect casting choice (IMO, IMO....) . It's Anthony Head, who, unbeknownst to me, plays a part in "Buffy, The Vampire Slayer" (never watch it... sorry Keith).  Apart from that he also made the role of Frank N. Furter his own in a revival of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" and does camp *very* well, and Lockhart has to be as camp as tits to pull it off....

Head fits my age image of Lockhart.... but I would like to see him playing Lucius Malfoy.  There's a pic of him in the directory, too.  See this link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/

Neil 

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Sat Feb 17 10:17:48 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 05:17:48 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's Sun Sign
Message-ID: <65.ffc5d4b.27bfa9cc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12501

In a message dated 2/17/2001 4:04:29 AM EST, catlady at wicca.net writes:

<< **I** am a Scorpio (Sun, with Taurus Moon and Capricorn Rising). I
 suppose canon Draco could be a Scorpio, but WE'RE NOT COMPLICATED ENOUGH to 
be fanon Draco.
  >>

With all due respect to my fellow Eagle, what does fanon Draco have to do 
with it?

And I can promise you that this Scorpio *is*  complicated and certainly 
capable of having as many angst-filled desperate attachments as both canon 
and fanon Draco has had.  *And* my dear darling fellow scorpion ... fanon 
Draco is *tremendously* sexy ... I believe he's been described as "too sexy 
to die."  'nuff said, right?  He's gotta be one of us!

;)

Love & Light,
*E*




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Sat Feb 17 10:27:54 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:27:54 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Questions...
In-Reply-To: <96k8l7+t6td@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ljna+2jjs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12502

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sadie_row at h... wrote:
> > 
> > I'm curious (this is for you H/Her's out there). Would
> > Draco/Hermione 
> > be preferable over Ron/Hermione? This is, of course, if you
> > couldn't 
> > have Harry/Hermione. (sorry about all of the ?/?'s)
> > 
> Oh, yes, but only if Draco becomes un-evil (or, in the alternative, 
> if both of them turn out evil, but I think the likelihood of Evil!
> Hermione is up there (or is it "down there") with Evil!Harry) 
(note: 
> I did not say that evil!ron is unlikely...and I did not say draco 
had 
> to be "nice")
> 
*chortles* Not much point asking ME that sort of question, is there. 
I would MUCH rather see Hermione end up with Draco than with Ron, as 
long as Draco mends his ways a bit (I don't want him to be "nice" 
either.) On alternate days, I would rather see Hermione wind up with 
Draco than with Harry. (A fact which affords Lori much pain, I am 
aware.) Ron/Hermione actively squicks me, Ron/Harry just puzzles me, 
and as for Ron/Draco...what CAN they be thinking? <g> (Suddenly 
thinking of Ebony saying "Ah, yes, the obligatory 'weird pairings' 
portion of the chat.")

I don't think this necessarily means that I don't like Ron, which is 
an accusation often leveled at us H/H types...I like him okay. I just 
don't like him with Hermione. However, if the books do tend that way, 
I will survive. After all, Little Women is still one of my favorite 
childhood books, even though I have never forgiven Louisa May Alcott 
for what she did to Jo and Laurie -- a horrendous mistake IMHO. <g>

Cassie




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Sat Feb 17 10:36:53 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:36:53 -0000
Subject: DRACO DOLLS! (was New figures from Mattel)
In-Reply-To: <20010213154627.69203.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96lk85+aadu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12503

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi tandy <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> --- rgoertz at a... wrote:
> > Here are pictures from the upcoming figures from 
> > Mattel.
> <a
> href="http://www.action-figure.com/sections.php?
op=viewarticle&artid=137">
> 
> They made Draco Dolls! Finally! 
> 
> =====
I am greatly disturbed by Draco's bright yellow hair and the fact 
that he is standing under the Gryffindor flag. Surely he should have 
some House pride and know a bit better than that. *moves Draco over.* 
All right, I admit, I did a childish flip of excitement and 
screamed "Draco dolls!" at the top of my lungs when I saw the 
picture, so I should not be called upon for objective assessment. At 
least he's blond and left-handed and he and  the Harry doll look 
awfully cute together. *chortles quietly* That sounded wrong, but I'm 
going to leave it.

Cassie




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 17 11:33:55 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:33:55 -0000
Subject: More Neville topics - Bertha
In-Reply-To: <96ka15+i77v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96lnj3+1078q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12504

MMM wrote:

> > 1. The Pensieve scene with Bertha Jorkins.  Why is Dumbledore sad 
> > over a harmless gossip among students?  It just isn't the right 
> > reaction.  

He suspects that she's dead and that her nosiness led her into 
trouble, as it had on a smaller scale when she got hexed by a fellow 
student she'd spied on.  He doesn't *know* yet that she's dead, but he 
does know that she disappeared near where V was rumored to be, plus 
people do not normally go incommunicado for 10 months, so it's a 
natural fear.

> > Now, remember Neville's Boggart?  The most horrible and 
frightening 
> > thing ever happen to Neville was the torture of his parents.  
Okay, 
> > Snape can be intimidating but Neville's fear is unnatural.

I don't think it's unnatural (ever been ridiculed on a daily basis by 
someone who has power over you?), but even if it is, it might be that 
Snape does remind Neville of his parents' fate without Snape having 
been involved in their torture (as Charmian points out, Voldemort had 
fallen already when the Longbottoms were tortured).

BTW, I don't think Neville witnessed his parents' torture.  He 
probably wouldn't remember it consciously anyway (we don't know when 
it was, but I'm guessing no more than a year after the Potters died, 
putting Neville at no more than ~3), but it would return to him when 
the Dementors came, just as Harry's memory of his parents' deaths 
(un-recall-able to his conscious mind) does.  Judging from Neville's 
response to the Dementors, he isn't recalling anything as horrific as 
that.  Or maybe he just doesn't faint as easily as Harry?

None of which is to say that Neville doesn't know exactly what 
happened to them--it's clear in GF that he does and is tormented by 
it, not only by their absence in his life.  Just that he didn't 
actually see it happen.

Charmian wrote:

 But as for fear, I don't think he 
> "fears" his parents' torturers coming after him. It could be that 
> while traumatized, he regards this as a sad illness of theirs, 
rather 
> than feeling anxiety over the return of the DEs; after all, most of 
> the wizarding world thinks that Voldy's gone for good. 

He could feel great anxiety over the return of the DEs without fearing 
that they'll come for him.  He's more anxious than most because he 
knows better than most what a world with a powerful V would be like.  
(Ron is like this too--I have to go to work so I can't cite, but I 
think he is--and I put it down to his parents' and oldest brothers' 
frankness in talking about the days of Voldemort's power.)

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion
by turning into a large canary.
                  --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Sat Feb 17 12:12:07 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:12:07 -0000
Subject: slightly OT; starling's art
In-Reply-To: <96ei8n+b0ai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96lpqn+ljp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12505

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:

> 
> oh, I really would like to watch those pictures by ms/mr/mrs 
> Starling, I have read so much about them....especially the ones of 
> Draco... so is there anyone out there to write the link to her/his 
> pictures....? I would be so thankful :)
> jennifer
----

This is her very own web page. 

elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/i/z/izcovich/izcovich.html

You can see a lot of her art there. She draws amazing pictures of 
Draco (just ask Rita) but draws all the other HP characters too: Ron, 
Hermione, all the Champions, Cho, McGonagall, etc. Admire, and leave 
her a nice feedback.

<g>

Cassie




From ender_w at msn.com  Sat Feb 17 13:24:30 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:24:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: , Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
References: <96l0bv+j2uq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c098e4$f70c0760$7f690f3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12506


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Trina 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:57 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: , Hogwarts' special ed, etc.


  Rina wrote:
  >>I'd like to think that Hogwarts would have MEPs (I just love that 
  >>idea, Ender <g>) and appropriate accomodations, rather than a fix-
  >>all. After all, it has been brought up that they don't advocate 
  >>cosmetic (teeth) fixing unless it's been directly impacted by a 
  >>spell, and they don't seem to fix eyesight just on a whim. Maybe 
  >>things could be done so that a nonverbal child could direct thoughts 
  >>for spells?" 


  Being a Christion (one of the ones who DOES like Harry Potter...obviously), I believe that people with disabilities have them for a reason.  Perhaps, in the wizarding world, there are magical reasons for not using a quick-fix on a disability.  An autistic wizard, because his mind works differently, may have powers that a non-autistic wizard doesn't.  A hyperactive wizard may have special talents like being able to cast several spells at once.  And maybe the myth of blind or deaf people having super-human senses (the other four senses, I mean) is true for wizards. If I were a parent, or teacher, though, I might be a little anxious about little dyslexic wizards casting their first spells: "Expelliarmus!! Hey! Where did my wand go?"


  >>Given the schools' long-standing habit of chucking the speech therapists into broom closets, perhaps this is where >>all the "resource" teachers are at Hogwarts


  A resource room at Hogwart??  I smell another fanfic in my future!!

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 14:16:12 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:16:12 -0000
Subject: Peter vs. Sirius once again
In-Reply-To: <3A8E2427.35C9D02E@fenya.net>
Message-ID: <96m13c+4r0p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12507

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meghan <meg at f...> wrote:
> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> > 
> > Scott wrote:
> > 
> > > Fourthly maybe Sirius HAD killed someone last, and so the PI 
did in
> > > fact show AK as the last curse. It just wasn't the AK that they
> > > THOUGHT it was. (Maybe though this wouldn't work. Do all PI's 
of AK
> > > produce shades???)
> > 
> > I'd argued before that not all spells cast with a wand are 
necessarily
> > going to produce tangible "echoes" during priori incantatem. 
Witness the
> > screams that come from Voldemort's wand; we as readers happen to 
know
> > that was because he'd cast Cruciatis (sp?) on someone, but if you 
had no
> > idea, the priori incantatem would not enlighten you. Perhaps the
> > wizarding world is well acquainted with the limitations, and thus 
does
> > not use it except in situations where they are simply confirming a
> > strong suspicion (i.e., the Dark Mark). With a street full of 
witnesses
> > and the Secret Keeper arrangement known (they thought), perhaps 
priori
> > incantatem was not thought necessary.
> 
> 
> And for some reason I thought you had to have an exact twin core to 
do
> it in the first place? O.o  
> 
> I don't have GoF with me [>_< In storage.  Since November.  Because 
we
> thought we'd have the new house by now.  And you don't know how 
tempted
> I am to simply suck it up and buy a used copy] but I think I 
remember
> something about Dumbles saying something to the effect that a) 
Priori
> Incantatem was a RARE effect, and ONLY occured when two wands were 
made
> with the same cores.  In Voldemort and Harry's case, the feathers 
from
> Fawkes.
> 
> [And we will all pause, and not go there, about how Riddle was 
suited to
> a feather from DUMBLEDORE'S phoenix, and also where the heck he had 
his
> wand while in hiding/without a body. =P]
> 
> meg
> crosseyed with sleepiness
> -- 
> Meg -- meg at f... -- http://www.fenya.net
> AIM: LazuliSong ICQ: lazulisong 
> D N Angel, Card Captor Sakura, General Evil Things

But what about when they test Harry's wand at the World Cup to see 
whether it performed Mordesmorde? No matching wand there. Hmm. this 
is a puzzling topic. You'd think if they could do it then, they could 
always do it. But as for Sirius, was he on the loose for at least 
long enough to do 'lumos'? Even a minute would give him time. The 
solution for criminals of course would be to do another spell 
quickly. Priori incantatum would confirm tha last spell, but it 
couldn't rule out one. If Sirius had performed AK, then they could 
see it if it were last. That's good evidence against him. But PI 
can't tell them he didn't do AK _before_ the last spell. 

Am I making any sense at all?

Heather M.






From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 14:24:42 2001
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (ES Jacobson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:24:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 583
In-Reply-To: <982392881.2081.65994.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010217142442.16887.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12508

I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I found a link at FilmForce.net
from a woman who went to this years American International Toy Fair. If you scroll
down a bit, she describes the Harry Potter movie trailer, or teaser trailer to be
more specific. There are also some pictures of toys that will be released,
including a prototype of a Norbert the dragon toy. 

http://filmforce.ign.com/news/2008.html

From,

Erin

=====
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Q: Is Voldemort some sort of relative of Harry's? Possibly his mother's brother?
JK Rowling: I'm laughing...that would be a bit Star War's, wouldn't it? 
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

__________________________________________________
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From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 17 16:09:37 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:09:37 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Questions...
Message-ID: <F85bjKoMFYsDSzhxRz300000906@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12509

Cassie wrote:
>I don't think this necessarily means that I don't like Ron, which is
>an accusation often leveled at us H/H types...I like him okay. I just
>don't like him with Hermione. However, if the books do tend that way,
>I will survive. After all, Little Women is still one of my favorite
>childhood books, even though I have never forgiven Louisa May Alcott
>for what she did to Jo and Laurie -- a horrendous mistake IMHO. <g>
>

Cassie is the third H/H-type that I've seen make this comment re: LMA within 
the past two days.  I'd be interested to see what R/Hers thought of the 
ending of *Little Women*.

Perhaps there's more of a trend here than we think.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
(H/H Special Agent, First Class)

Join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"I've a pocket of dreams to sell... what d'ye lack?  What d'ye lack?  A 
dream of success--a dream of adventure--a dream of the sea--a dream of the 
woodland--any kind of dream you want at reasonable prices, including one or 
two unique little nightmares.

"What will you give me for a dream?"

--Teddy Kent in *Emily Climbs*, Lucy Maud Montgomery
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Feb 17 16:24:18 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:24:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] screen saver
References: <F85bjKoMFYsDSzhxRz300000906@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A8EA5B2.A2CCE02D@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12510

There's a new screen saver over at the newly-relaunched WB-HP site at
www.harrypotter.com - it's the pictureo f the delivery owl with an
envelope & all the different movie titles from around the world along
the bottom.
lovely but not as exciting as the qqudditch one from last summer

btw - I'm the other h/h type who hated the end of Little Women - I
mentioned it on HP-OT Chat, which is an excellent list that should be
joined by all those of you who want to jabber....




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Feb 17 16:53:47 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:53:47 +0100
Subject: Sinistra and PI
References: <96ld6s+9oo7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8EAC9A.B4816A12@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 12511

Kelley wrote:

> > Finally - thinking of a role for Eddie Izzard in the film - there
> is only one part for him....the sexually ambiguous Professor Sinistra.
> >
> > Neil
>
> LOL!  Oh, he'd be beautiful, wouldn't he?  :sigh:  And don't you just
> know, we'll never even see Sinistra; perhaps he/she will make a cameo
> at the end of year feast in #7.....

Sorry, guys, take a look at chapter 23 of GoF (The Yule Ball): 'Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden
leg.'

Catlady wrote:

> Meghan wrote:
>   > And for some reason I thought you had to have an exact twin core
>   > to do [Priori Incantatem] in the first place? O.o
>
>   No. When wands that have twin cores try to fight each other, they can
>   make Priori Incantatem instead of what their humans wanted them to do.
>   But Priori Incantatem is a charm that any mage with a wand can cast on
>   any wand deliberately. Amos Diggory did PI on the wand that Winky was
>   holding, to show that it had cast the Dark Mark. The PI in the duel was
>   many spells in reverse chronological order, but I am not at all sure if
>   PI as a charm can bring out another spell after it brings out the very
>   last one cast.
>

Correction: Amos cast 'Prior Incantato', not Priori Incantatem. Subtle Latin differences which someone who has, unlike me, taken Latin within the past two years will have to
explain. Anyway, my guess is that Prior Incantato shows the last spell any wand has cast, and Priori Incantatem is the phenomenon which occurs when two wands sharing cores are
forced to battle - namely, one of the wands is forced by the other to regurgitate all the spells it has ever cast, in reverse order, until the connection is broken.

- Firebolt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Feb 17 17:07:36 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:07:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Questions...
Message-ID: <009e01c09904$223213c0$b2459fac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12512

Ebony wrote:

<<Cassie is the third H/H-type that I've seen make this comment re: LMA within 
the past two days.  I'd be interested to see what R/Hers thought of the 
ending of *Little Women*.>>

Hmmm. <g> I was really mad at Amy and Laurie for getting married, but then Jo met her Professor and I just loved him. At first A/L almost seemed like a betrayal, but I think things ended up for the best for all of them. Laurie couldn't have made Jo as happy.

Does this mean I've continued a trend? LOL

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Feb 17 17:14:52 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:14:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sinistra/casting
Message-ID: <00aa01c09905$24704e80$b2459fac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12513

Firebolt wrote:

<<Sorry, guys, take a look at chapter 23 of GoF (The Yule Ball): 'Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden
leg.'>>

Well, now, this never does say what sex Sinistra is, just Moody. <g> For all we know, the magic world can be very open-minded. LOL

Neil wrote:

<<A bit more digging around and I came across the perfect casting choice (IMO, IMO....) . It's Anthony Head, who, unbeknownst to me, plays a part in "Buffy, The Vampire Slayer" (never watch it... sorry Keith).  Apart from that he also made the role of Frank N. Furter his own in a revival of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" and does camp *very* well, and Lockhart has to be as camp as tits to pull it off....>>

::Rina wails:: Lockhart?? Tony is destined for Lupin, IMO. LOL Yes, yes, he can do camp and over the top nicely, but he also does kind and intelligent and sexy. <g> Besides, I've always thought of Lockhart as being stereotypical blond flowing hair and such. Tony's not blonde, nor do we ever want to see him with flowing hair. His hair is barely touching his collar this season and is too long. <g>

Rina
Really, really big Giles fan. LOL

********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 18:10:53 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Special Ed Re: Squibs
In-Reply-To: <96l16j+qm49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010217181053.6575.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12514


--- Scott <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Trina wrote:
> "I'd like to think that Hogwarts would have MEPs (I just love that 
> idea, Ender <g>) and appropriate accomodations, rather than a fix-
> all."
> 
> Oh that's a REALLY interesting thought. Would they fix these 
> disablities or simple provide for them? IMO some of the most 
> inspirational people I've ever seen or meet are those with 
> diablities. 

Alright, so I've been thinking about the fate of Squibs, in relation
to meps. I'm wondering what their fates are really like. They seem to
be stuck doing menial labor in the wizarding world, and bitter
(Filtch) or would have to leave their families and start a life as a
muggle. They would have to attend muggle schools, and could you
imagine a weasely child who had to attend a muggle school? Walking in
at 11 saying "fellyfone" wouldn't go over well. I say 11, since if
there are wizarding elementary schools, they might send a squib child
in the hopes that his/her magic hasn't been manifested yet, ie:
Neville's "they thought I was all squib for ages." 
So why couldn't a squib child go to Hogwarts? There are several major
issues I'm seeing, such as that to muggles, Hogwarts looks like
ruins. But maybe there's a way to get around this? There must be,
since Filtch lives in the castle.
 As far as I can tell, most of the classes do not require any innate
magical talent. Care of Magical Creatures, Astrology, Ancient Runes,
Herbology, Potions, Arithmancy, Quidditch, if that is a class, and
some parts of divination (tea leaves, probably not crystal balls) are
not magical in nature. As far as I can tell, Charms, Transfiguration,
and some parts of Divination are the only classes a non-magical
student couldn't do. I think that two subjects out of a possible 10
or so counts as something the school could over-look. 
If a student is non-magical, there's no reason for him or her to have
a gift at potions, or herbology, like Neville. Other than prejudice,
there's no reason why a squib couldn't advance far in the wizarding
world, just by learning to over-come his or her non-magical handicap.
Afterall, us Muggles do alright for ourselves without being about to
do leg-locker curses and instantly repair windows. 
Anyone else think that Squib children should be educated at Hogwarts
on some kind of mep? It seems unfairly limiting.

__________________________________________________
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From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 18:15:33 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:15:33 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was Re: Sinistra and PI)
In-Reply-To: <3A8EAC9A.B4816A12@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <96mf45+r0j7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12515

Firebolt wrote:
"Correction: Amos cast 'Prior Incantato', not Priori Incantatem. 
Subtle Latin differences which someone who has, unlike me, taken 
Latin within the past two years will have to explain. Anyway, my 
guess is that Prior Incantato shows the last spell any wand has cast, 
and Priori Incantatem is the phenomenon which occurs when two wands 
sharing cores are forced to battle - namely, one of the wands is 
forced by the other to regurgitate all the spells it has ever cast, 
in reverse order, until the connection is broken."

--You really want to know this eh? Ok the best way I can explain this 
is that incantatem (I couldn't actually find this word in a latin 
dictionary- anyone?) is a third declension noun accusative singular 
(used for objects) or a nominative (subject and predicate nominative) 
ending (em). Priori is an adjective meaning former, and unless I'm 
way off base the 'i' ending indicates that it is modifying a noun.  

Hmmmm, now that I'm looking over this I guess it doesn't make sense. 
The 'o' is not a third declension ending. Is incantatem a real latin 
word that was simply omitted from my handy dandy Oxford Pocket latin 
Dictionary? I'm getting really confused...

Scott




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 18:23:08 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:23:08 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Little Women and H/H (was- Questions...)
In-Reply-To: <009e01c09904$223213c0$b2459fac@shelley>
Message-ID: <96mfic+c8kf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12516

Ebony wrote:
"Cassie is the third H/H-type that I've seen make this comment re: 
LMA within the past two days.  I'd be interested to see what R/Hers 
thought of the ending of *Little Women*."

Rina wrote:
"Hmmm. <g> I was really mad at Amy and Laurie for getting married, 
but then Jo met her Professor and I just loved him. At first A/L 
almost seemed like a betrayal, but I think things ended up for the 
best for all of them. Laurie couldn't have made Jo as happy."

--I adored 'Little Women'. I agree that I'd loved to have seen Jo end 
up with Laurie. (Rather a H/H type match dontcha think? Is that why 
'we' didn't like it?) However I was quite happy with Jo and the good 
Professor (whose name has left me) in 'Little Men'. Everthing worked 
out well. 

(Though I still can't exactly see Laurie and Amy together <g>)

Scott




From katyd2008 at aol.com  Sat Feb 17 18:50:51 2001
From: katyd2008 at aol.com (katyd2008 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:50:51 EST
Subject: Shipping Harry Potter Relationships by Moods
Message-ID: <89.2890c03.27c0220b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12517

 According to you you're a No-Ship, a person without a cause. According to 
others, there is no such ship.   However I think there we are all on personal 
life boats in the ocean of fanfic, each that go through the waves finding 
what they want to read at the time they want to read it. Here's a guide for 
what *i* do when I want to read romance. 

Harry/Ginny: They've known each other forever and all the romances reflect 
this. If you're ever down on your luck, can't find someone to love, read this 
and revel in the fact that the one you're supposed to find will always be 
close by. 

Draco/Ginny: You don't expect them to work out. But you hope to God they do. 
It's cute to see them clash and bash and they way they interact can brighten 
a mood.

Harry/Hermione: This pairing reminds me of action movies. Indian Jones always 
gets the girl. And the girl is always the key to solving the mystery. Harry 
and Hermione! The team for fighting eeeeevil... 

Ron/Hermione: When you need a dose of reality. Ron and Hermione will have 
their ups and their downs but ultimately they're a normal couple. They 
exemplify what married life really is. 

Draco/Hermione: Come *on*, you just have to enjoy this when it's well 
written. Enemies snogging? LOL! When you're feeling devious and evil, ready 
to go "Mwhahaha" like a Slytherin, read D/H. It's just the way it is. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Fanfic is for all. You can't 
exclude anyone. And you can only do it if you're willing to accept everyone's 
ideas. We're all on our personal life boats. 


Katie, Katy, Katherine or Virgo. Who ever is in at the moment.
----
"Your trust in rationality makes you irrational."
                                                 Children of the Mind


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sat Feb 17 18:56:11 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:56:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's sacrifice/the Dursleys
Message-ID: <20010217185611.EE8272748@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12518

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010217/a28051ab/attachment.ksh>

From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sat Feb 17 18:54:05 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:54:05 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shipping Harry Potter Relationships by Moods
References: <89.2890c03.27c0220b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00bc01c09913$069f37a0$82417bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12519



> According to you you're a No-Ship, a person without a cause. According
to
> others, there is no such ship.   However I think there we are all on
personal
 life boats in the ocean of fanfic, each that go through the waves
finding
> what they want to read at the time they want to read it. Here's a
guide for
> what *i* do when I want to read romance.
>
I really don't buy this. I am what you call a no-shipper. I'll read
anything in terms of fanfic. but I don't five two hoots for who ends up
with whom. I just want everyone to end up happy. But not necessarily
OBHWF !!


Michelle




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb 17 19:17:15 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:17:15 -0000
Subject: OT-- Izzard as Sinistra...
In-Reply-To: <3A8EAC9A.B4816A12@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <96minr+n1m8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12520

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Firebolt <particle at u...> wrote:
> Neil wrote:
>> Finally - thinking of a role for Eddie Izzard in the film - there
>> is only one part for him....the sexually ambiguous Professor 
Sinistra.
> Kelley wrote:
> > LOL!  Oh, he'd be beautiful, wouldn't he?  :sigh:  And don't you 
just know, we'll never even see Sinistra; perhaps he/she will make a 
cameo at the end of year feast in #7.....
> 
>Firebolt wrote:
> Sorry, guys, take a look at chapter 23 of GoF (The Yule Ball): 'Mad-
Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with Professor 
Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden
> leg.'

Yeah, you're right, but our comments about Eddie Izzard as Sinistra 
were a bit tongue in cheek; Izzard is a hetero male who is also a 
transvestite who looks absolutely smashing when he's 'dressed' 
and 'madeup'.  The more I think about it, the more I like this 
suggestion of Neil's...

Kelley 




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 17 19:29:02 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:29:02 -0000
Subject: Casting - Branagh - Thompson (was accents/casting Lockhart)
In-Reply-To: <a8.113d4444.27bf5495@aol.com>
Message-ID: <96mjdu+i78e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12521

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> The talk of English actors managing American accents brought to my 
mind one 
> of the best examples:  Kenneth Branagh in Dead Again.
> 
> And speaking of Branagh, I bet he could pull off the Lockhart role 
quite well.
> 

Weird. I was just thinking of Branagh and trying to find him a role. 
I agree he could easily pull off Lockhart (although he's not pretty 
enough. Ummm.. well, he's not pretty at all, really, is he?). 
However, for some reason I see him as Cornelius Fudge. Don't know 
why, exactly. Anyway, he's a great actor and could pull off 
practically any role he takes. 
What really bugs me, BTW, is that there is no part (that I can think 
of) for Emma Thompson. She is so right for the HP world and such a 
wonderful actress (and she's British!) - it really is a pity. 

Oh, and another thing - is there any news on who will play Lily?

Naama, who walked her dogs for an hour while wearing her brains out 
trying to cast Lily..




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb 17 19:34:46 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:34:46 -0000
Subject: Snape's sacrifice/the Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <20010217185611.EE8272748@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <96mjom+c9m3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12522

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Star <star_ling at w...> wrote:
> My theory is 
> >that Petunia is a squib; that she'll be the character to find her 
> >magic later in life...
> >
> >Kelley
> 
> Really? I always thought that it would be Filch but I guess I could 
see Petunia turning out to be a withc, well, no never mind I can't 
but if anyone could make it seem plausibl eand happen then it would 
be Jo on the account that she's the writer and all but still, hm have 
to think about that.  Oh and Petunia could become a witch but she's 
not a scuib b/c scuibs come from long standing wizard families unless 
the Evans family were wizards and we just don't know it.
> ~Star~

Well, yeah, Filch is another option, as he's the only person who's 
been identified as a squib (there aren't any others we've been told 
about yet, right?), though to me, Petunia would be more fun (or 
Dudley).  Since Filch is the only squib we know, JKR saying someone 
would develop magical power later in their life would be too much of 
a giveaway.  I'm expecting this person to be *the last* person we 
would expect, you know?  Is that a hard and fast rule, that squibs 
are from long wizarding lines?  That they're the exceptions in 
otherwise all-magic families?  If so, then you're right; though I 
guess JKR could have more in store regarding the Evanses...

Kelley




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Feb 17 20:01:51 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:01:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Special Ed Re: Squibs
Message-ID: <002501c0991c$79bdf4c0$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12523

Teek wrote:

<< I say 11, since if
there are wizarding elementary schools, they might send a squib child
in the hopes that his/her magic hasn't been manifested yet, ie:
Neville's "they thought I was all squib for ages." 
So why couldn't a squib child go to Hogwarts? There are several major
issues I'm seeing, such as that to muggles, Hogwarts looks like
ruins. But maybe there's a way to get around this? There must be,
since Filtch lives in the castle...<snip good post> Anyone else think that Squib children should be educated at Hogwarts on some kind of mep? It seems unfairly limiting.>>

First of all, there is no wizarding elementary school. In the scholastic Q&A, Jo said there was no wizarding school before or after Hogwarts. I guess the wizarding kids are homeschooled in basic reading/writing/math until they're 11. (Aside - wonder if there's a daycare for kids who's parents both work?)

Now a squib is someone from a magic family who doesn't have (any? enough?) magic in them, right? I don't think this makes them a Muggle, since they know all *about magic and stuff, they just can't seem to do it. (Apparently a sign of magic is bouncing when thrown out of a window? I wonder what other signs there are.) 

I agree with you that MEPs would seem to be in order for squibs at Hogwarts. All I can think is that instead of Hogwarts, there's a "special" school for them to go to. You're right, they can't very well attend Muggle school, and they have to get education somehow. Maybe Jo is telling us that the wizarding community still practices "separate but equal" instead of inclusion. <g> Perhaps a squib is the magical equivialent of a child with special needs. 

Okay, who's with me for a fic in which we revolutionize  and revise the magical education system?! LOL Trina's the SLP, Ender's the special ed teacher, I can be an aide while I work on my SMILEs. <g>

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 17 20:16:32 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:16:32 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Questions...
In-Reply-To: <F85bjKoMFYsDSzhxRz300000906@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96mm70+2h8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12524

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> Cassie wrote:
> >I don't think this necessarily means that I don't like Ron, which 
is
> >an accusation often leveled at us H/H types...I like him okay. I 
just
> >don't like him with Hermione. However, if the books do tend that 
way,
> >I will survive. After all, Little Women is still one of my 
favorite
> >childhood books, even though I have never forgiven Louisa May 
Alcott
> >for what she did to Jo and Laurie -- a horrendous mistake IMHO. 
<g>
> >
> 
> Cassie is the third H/H-type that I've seen make this comment re: 
LMA within 
> the past two days.  I'd be interested to see what R/Hers thought of 
the 
> ending of *Little Women*.
> 
> Perhaps there's more of a trend here than we think.
> 

I must disappoint you here, Ebony. I'm an R/H-er and I also 
firmly believe that Jo and Laurie belong together. OT: I see it as 
part and parcel of LMA's turning Jo into the stereotypical "good 
woman" - wifely, maternal, very UNsexual. The way I see it, Laurie 
scares Jo because he can spark the passionate, sexual side of her. 
Back on topic (sort of): Strange that you connect the Jo-Laurie 
concern with H/H. To me, Jo and Laurie have a very R/H relationship. 

Naama 




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Feb 17 20:14:47 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:14:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:  Little Women and H/H (was- Questions...)
Message-ID: <003101c0991e$492676a0$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12525

Scott wrote:

<<--I adored 'Little Women'. I agree that I'd loved to have seen Jo end 
up with Laurie. (Rather a H/H type match dontcha think? Is that why 
'we' didn't like it?) However I was quite happy with Jo and the good 
Professor (whose name has left me) in 'Little Men'. Everthing worked 
out well. 
>>

I think it's hard to compare LW and HP, couple-wise. While the Jo/Laurie and Jo/Bhaer couplings can parallel H/H and H/R, it's not really all that close. IE, the three of them were not best friends growing up together, and J/B had a relationship not even close to R/H's. LOL

What this does do, however, is generalize, and I think that's misleading. It kind of assumes that if you prefer the "hero gets the girl" in one series, you'll always like that, which personally doesn't work for me. I don't like to generalize couples, I look at personality. I prefer the way H/R compliment each other to the way that H/H do. As much as I love Laurie and Jo, I'm happy with them being friends, because I think Jo and Bhaer compliment each other better romantically. But if you look at LMM, I'm all about Anne and Gilbert, rather than Anne/Moody or Anne/Roy, because A&G compliment each other best, IMO. Just because I liked "hero gets the girl" (actually, in that case, "herione gets the guy" <g>), doesn't mean I'll always like that. 

Which isn't to say that I'm not interested in hearing about this trend, just that it has to be taken with a measure of salt. <g>

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Feb 17 20:22:12 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:22:12 -0600
Subject: CoS Gilderoy Lockhart's books
Message-ID: <00b601c0991f$50e38da0$0e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12526

This bothered me when I read it the first time, but I did not have anyone to ask then. Now I do. You people are the best.

In CoS-4, there is a list of the new books that Harry would need for the coming year.

"SECOND-YEAR STUDENTS WILL REQUIRE:
Included on this list are seven of Gilderoy Lockhart's books.

Ron Weasley is also a second year student. Ginny, Fred, Harry, and Percy are not second year students.

Then, why does George say:
"Dunno how Mum and Dad are going to afford all our school stuff this year," said George after a while. "Five sets of Lockhart books!"

I thought that Ron would be the only one needing the Lockhart books. Can someone clear this up for me. I tried a search through the archives first, but it did not help. Sorry if I missed it.

Doreen

*********************************************************************************************
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." 
Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
*********************************************************************************************


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Feb 17 20:24:41 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:24:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS Gilderoy Lockhart's books
Message-ID: <004001c0991f$e97a0da0$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12527

Doreen wrote:

<<I thought that Ron would be the only one needing the Lockhart books. Can someone clear this up for me. I tried a search through the archives first, but it did not help. Sorry if I missed it.>>

Near as I can tell, there's only one teacher per subject. So Lockhart would teach all the DADA classes. In GoF, I believe, Fred and george were excited about their lesson with Moody for DADA, and Ron was disappointed that they had to wait until Friday for class. Since Lockhart was a very egotistic person, as noted by his books being the only textbooks for the class, I think he was basically probably teaching all the classes the same things - whatever he "experienced" and wrote about.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Sat Feb 17 21:01:18 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:01:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sinistra and PI
References: <96ld6s+9oo7@eGroups.com> <3A8EAC9A.B4816A12@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <001201c09924$ca659060$b8421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12528


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Firebolt 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 11:53 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sinistra and PI


  Kelley wrote:

  > > Finally - thinking of a role for Eddie Izzard in the film - there
  > is only one part for him....the sexually ambiguous Professor Sinistra.
  > >
  > > Neil
  >
  > LOL!  Oh, he'd be beautiful, wouldn't he?  :sigh:  And don't you just
  > know, we'll never even see Sinistra; perhaps he/she will make a cameo
  > at the end of year feast in #7.....

  >Sorry, guys, take a look at chapter 23 of GoF (The Yule Ball): 'Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two->step with Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden
  >leg.'


  So? What's your point?  Even Eddie Izzard would be afraid of that wooden club that Moody calls a leg.  Just kidding!

  ender




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 17 21:54:50 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:54:50 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts' special ed, etc.
In-Reply-To: <001d01c098e4$f70c0760$7f690f3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <96mrva+e34o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12529

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:

> Being a Christian (one of the ones who DOES like Harry Potter ...
> obviously), I believe that people with disabilities have them
> for a reason. 

I suspect that whether people believe that it is appropriate to 'fix' 
a disability has to do with how many generations that fix has been 
available. 

In my case, I am so near-sighted that nowadays (age 43), I can't 
READ without my glasses because my nose keeps me from holding the 
page close enough to my eyes, and even more astigmatic. I got my 
first pair of glasses on my tenth birthday and was ecstatic over such 
new discoveries as that streets had signs showing their names and 
busses had signs on the front showing their route number: bus drivers 
had always displayed impatience with me when I stuck my head in the 
bus and asked: "Is this the Number 9?"

In the Middle Ages, there were no useful corrective eyeglasses, so 
I would have been raised as a blind person. I would have learned to 
walk in unfamiliar places, not just my own home, as confidentally in 
total darkness as in light (which could be considered a useful skill), 
but the old tradition of raising blind children to be musicians as a 
way of earning their livings wouldn't have worked on me because I am 
also tone-deaf.

My point is that I much prefer having eyeglasses (a 'fix') to obeying 
God's plan that I should be a blind person. And if, God forbid, I 
were to go blind in later life from macular degeneration or something, 
but there was a new fiber-optic/microchip device to restore vision by 
replacing the damaged retina and optic nerve, I would BEG for it! 





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 17 21:59:39 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:59:39 -0000
Subject: CoS Gilderoy Lockhart's books
In-Reply-To: <004001c0991f$e97a0da0$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <96ms8b+sg4j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12530

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rina Stewart" <rina at l...> wrote:

> Since Lockhart was a very egotistic person, as noted by his 
> books being the only textbooks for the class, I think he was
> basically probably teaching all the classes the same things -
> whatever he "experienced" and wrote about.

Yes, except I wondered from the beginning whether Lockhart's required 
all his students to buy a ton of his books merely from egotism or 
was it from financial motives. He might get a couple of Knuds for 
every copy sold...




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Feb 17 22:09:38 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:09:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS Gilderoy Lockhart's books
Message-ID: <005601c0992e$521dbd80$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12531

Rita wrote:

<<Yes, except I wondered from the beginning whether Lockhart's required 
all his students to buy a ton of his books merely from egotism or 
was it from financial motives. He might get a couple of Knuds for 
every copy sold...>>

Yes, that occured to me, too. <g> I'm sure that also played a large part in the requirements.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 16:01:35 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:01:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter vs. Sirius once again
References: <96kpfr+mavt@eGroups.com> <3A8DED6D.A8159A3E@texas.net> <3A8E2427.35C9D02E@fenya.net>
Message-ID: <000501c0993f$4e341780$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12532

That particular spell wasn't the one used during the Death Mark Chapter,
though, when they discovered that Harry's wand was the one that created the
Death Mark.

THAT is the spell we should be discussing, right?  Nothing to do with cores
there! :)

(Working off of memory here, so I am not going to pull the name out of my
blonde brain--it's still too sleepy!)

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Meghan" <meg at fenya.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter vs. Sirius once again


> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> >
> > Scott wrote:
> >
> > > Fourthly maybe Sirius HAD killed someone last, and so the PI did in
> > > fact show AK as the last curse. It just wasn't the AK that they
> > > THOUGHT it was. (Maybe though this wouldn't work. Do all PI's of AK
> > > produce shades???)
> >
> > I'd argued before that not all spells cast with a wand are necessarily
> > going to produce tangible "echoes" during priori incantatem. Witness the
> > screams that come from Voldemort's wand; we as readers happen to know
> > that was because he'd cast Cruciatis (sp?) on someone, but if you had no
> > idea, the priori incantatem would not enlighten you. Perhaps the
> > wizarding world is well acquainted with the limitations, and thus does
> > not use it except in situations where they are simply confirming a
> > strong suspicion (i.e., the Dark Mark). With a street full of witnesses
> > and the Secret Keeper arrangement known (they thought), perhaps priori
> > incantatem was not thought necessary.
>
>
> And for some reason I thought you had to have an exact twin core to do
> it in the first place? O.o
>
> I don't have GoF with me [>_< In storage.  Since November.  Because we
> thought we'd have the new house by now.  And you don't know how tempted
> I am to simply suck it up and buy a used copy] but I think I remember
> something about Dumbles saying something to the effect that a) Priori
> Incantatem was a RARE effect, and ONLY occured when two wands were made
> with the same cores.  In Voldemort and Harry's case, the feathers from
> Fawkes.
>
> [And we will all pause, and not go there, about how Riddle was suited to
> a feather from DUMBLEDORE'S phoenix, and also where the heck he had his
> wand while in hiding/without a body. =P]
>
> meg
> crosseyed with sleepiness
> --
> Meg -- meg at fenya.net -- http://www.fenya.net
> AIM: LazuliSong ICQ: lazulisong
> D N Angel, Card Captor Sakura, General Evil Things
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 15:59:49 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:59:49 -0600
Subject: Filch as a hall monitor, too?
References: <96l77e+mado@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c0993f$4cdcc4e0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12533

>From my days of "behaving" in high school (ahem....this does not include the
time we were going to put the school up for sale "Proceeds to go to the
senior class"), I recall that the hall monitors (the adults, not the kids
who had power given to them) had the same authority as Filch.  Some even
monitored detension (yes, I ended up in there, lol.  I got it for leaving my
desk drawer open in class--long tale).

Doesn't this sound like one half of Filch's jobs?  I mean he has a drawer on
the twins.

Speaking of drawers, I wonder.  Is there a drawer in that cabinet on the
4-some?  or has it been converted to a more normal use now that they're
gone/out-of-school-dead?

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at bccs.org>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 12:54 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Changing as she goes along.


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> > Filch is probably an overseer of the House Elves.  After all, when
> you have
> > a castle as huge as Hogwarts, with hundreds of kids tracking in
> dirt &
> > whatnot, you need plenty of people to clean the floors, stoke the
> > fireplaces, do the laundry, cook, schlep the luggage and props
> around, etc
> > etc.
>
> I see a very fundamental difference between what Filch does and what
> the house elves do. They are NOT seen by the students if they're
> doing their job correctly. They do the mundane and basically mindless
> tasks. They have no interaction with the students at all, they do
> their work behind the scenes. Nearly Headless Nick says "You're not
> supposed to see them, are you? That's the mark of a good house-elf,
> isn't it, that you don't know it's there?"
>
> Filch, on the other hand, is a staff member and an authority figure.
> He does far more than clean the floors. He administers punishments,
> he maintains order, he check passes to Hogsmeade at the front
> door...he interacts with students all the time. He also manages the
> cleaning and things like that, sure, and I suppose he might be the
> one the house-elves report to.
>
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 16:13:03 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:13:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch - Funding
References: <3A8E3D79.7821CACF@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <000601c0993f$4fa55ac0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12534

Here's an idea.

Couldn't have Hagrid had another of those "pop" into Diagon Alley things
were he accesses Harry's account and bought it out of the funds there?

Or, and here's where the strange-ness of my brain comes in, how do you pay
for Hogwarts anyhow?  My brother went to a Christian school from age 3rd
grade to graduation.  Some kids got scholarships, some had to pay full
price.  If the kids needed something special, in some schools, the price of
the uniform perhaps, or let's say a laptop (which they are doing nowadays
here in this city), it was tacked onto the price of the year's tuition.

A goblin in the Alley would take all the bills that come in for Harry
(acting in (insert word here for someone who pays bills for someone else
when that person isn't of age)), and the Nimbus was just tacked onto the
bill with the explanation of why.  (Explanation:  Mr.  Potter became the
first student to in his first year play Quidditch.  Don't tell me that these
Goblins don't understand Quidditch--"Baggie and them" prove differently!)

Or my first explanation.  The second is a bit compound, but fun... Grins.

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Catlady" <catlady at wicca.net>
To: "HP4G" <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:59 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch - Leather Trousers - Sirius' Beard -
Ages - More topics


> Doreen Rich wrote:
> > I dont think that Ron is not a Quidditch Player because he lacks a
> > broom. In SS, once Harry is recognized as a valuable Quidditch
> > Player, he is sent a broom, with a note attached from Professor
> > McGonagall, saying not to open the package at the table. So... did
> > she send him the broom? Or did someone else send it to him and I
> >  forgot? (I am re-reading SS and have not come across who sent
> > Harry the broom, yet)
> > If McGonagall did send Harry the broom, she could send Ron one
> > as well.
>
> I don't recall SS ever telling us who sent Harry the Nimbus 2000, so I
> suspect it was McGonagall with her own money, an act of favoritism that
> she wanted plausible deniability for. She sent Harry the broom because
> he was not merely a valuable player, but an *essential* one: the team
> had no other Seeker: he was the only Seeker Gryffindor had! If Ron was
> the only Keeper that Gryffindor had, McGonagall would have seen to it
> that he got a broom somehow (maybe by a graduating student giving their
> old broomstick to Ron on grounds of getting a newer one as a graduation
> present), but Ron is obviously not the ONLY Keeper as long as Oliver is
> around, and probably not even the BEST Keeper. The same goes for the
> other positions: Gryffindor doesn't have a shortage of Beaters while
> Fred and George are on the team, nor a shortage of Chasers while Katie,
> Angie, and Alicia are there.
>
> jennifer k wrote:
> > oh, I really would like to watch those pictures by ms/mr/mrs
> > Starling, I have read so much about them....especially the ones of
> > Draco... so is there anyone out there to write the link to her/his
> > pictures....? I would be so thankful :)
>
> Last I looked, there was an unbearably irresistible Starling picture of
> Draco on Cassandra Claire's author profile page on www.fanfiction.net
> -- I'd include the URL, but ffnet seems to be down AGAIN. There are some
> at the Paradigm of Uncertainty egroup:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty/files/FanArt/
>
> Kimberly Moon wrote:
> > Am I the only one who thinks Snape writes sappy poetry in his spare
> > time?  Remember his potion portion of the puzzle (alliteration is
> > fun!) in SS/PS - the poem accompanying the little bottles?  And this
> > bit at the beginning of his first class...
>
> I dunno about Snape writing poetry on a regular basis, but I have formed
> a suspicion that he reads Shakespeare aloud to his Slytherins in their
> common room (and perhaps other Poetry: they would like Yeats' "Second
> Coming") and perhaps requires the older ones to participate in a
> Shakespeare reading club.
>
> Amy Z wrote:
> > Although against all reason, I picture [Sirius] being clean-shaven
> (sure,
> > he hasn't had time or breath for a haircut since leaving Azkaban, but
> > he hates a scratchy chin, so he does a quick wandless "Depilio!" every
>
> > morning).
>
> Long, long ago -- I think before GoF was released -- there was debate on
> e-mail-lists about Why Was Sirius Beardless when he escaped from
> Azkaban, a place not well equipped with razors? Someone suggested that
> he was at least half Native American and (therefore?) naturally
> beardless. My theory was that, back in the good old days when all his
> friends were still alive, he awoke one morning beside a pretty young
> witch (not an uncommon event), but she complained about his stubble
> scratching her, so he (gallantly? humorously?) cast a Beard-Be-Gone
> Charm on his face. He hadn't remembered to take it off yet a day or two
> later when everything went all to hell.
>
> Gwen lee_hillman wrote:
> > JKR interview: She said that Dumbledore is 150, and that
> > McGonagall is 70--but did she actually SAY that wizards
> > have longer lifespans? I assumed that Dumbledore's advanced age
> > has to do with working with Nick Flaumel on the Philospher's
> > Stone, not with any natural tendency to live longer.
>
> Yes. She said //Wizards have longer lifespans than Muggles -- Harry
> doesn't know that yet.//
>
> She implied that they also age slower, by telling us that McGonagall is
> 'a sprightly seventy' when everyone has read the description of her with
> black hair and so on and assumed she was only 50-ish. I expect that
> Molly Weasley could also be 70.
>
> But we still don't know whether 150 is a normal age for a wizard to
> still be working at (or still be living at!), as Dumbledore could be
> living longer and aging slower than normal wizards. He could have been
> sharing Flamel's Elixir as you said -- no more Elixir after end of SS
> would explain why he is looking older in GoF. The long lifespan might be
> the result of carrying magic inside oneself, and Dumbledore the greatest
> wizard carries the most magic and lives the longest. Or he might just
> have particularly healthy genes, like that Muggle woman in France who
> lived to 123 years old. Him looking older in GoF could be the result of
> stress or simply that Harry, growing up, is more observant.
>
> Milz wrote:
> > But, I thought Morgana from the Chocolate Frog cards was female. I
> > don't have the books with me at this moment, but didn't say he had a
> > number of 'her' cards already and gave it to Harry?
>
> I thought Morgana on the Famous Wizards and Witches card is Morgan le
> Fay from the story of King Arthur, in which case she is not only female,
> but a sexpot.
>
> Jeanne jsommer wrote:
> > By the way, aren't there an awful lot of orphans -- perhaps that's
> > why no one thought to ask Neville about why he lives with his
> > grandmother.
>
> It actually makes sense for there to be so many orphans, because so many
> people were killed during the Voldemort years. Some of the people killed
> were children or entire families and some were adults who didn't have
> young children, but some were adults whose young children were left as
> orphans. Also, if there were any couples sentenced to Azkaban who had
> children, those children would also need foster families. I wonder if
> the wizarding community of Britain has any MoM Department of Children's
> Social Services or Family Court, or do they leave it informally up to
> relatives and neighbors to volunteer to foster a child?
>
> PS, I never noticed a comparison between Lily and Mrs. Crouch until you
> pointed it out.
>
> Ebony wrote:
> > Make [Draco] a Scorpio or a Capricorn, *please*.
>
> **I** am a Scorpio (Sun, with Taurus Moon and Capricorn Rising). I
> suppose canon Draco could be a Scorpio, but WE'RE NOT COMPLICATED ENOUGH
> to be fanon Draco.
>
> > And why does it seem as if JKR and her fans are situating a lot of
> these
> > birthdays in the spring and the summer?  Is no one born during the
> Hogwarts
> > school year?
>
> JKR: Hermione, Sept 19, during the school year. Angelina, one week
> before the Goblet of Fire drawing right around Halloween, during the
> school year.
>
> Fans: speaking for myself, I put Harry, Susan Bones, and the Death Eater
> brats all in the same summer because they were conceived right around
> the same time. That'll be in installment 5 of my Lilyfic.
>
> Celeste Chang wrote:
> > What do you guys think Draco's birthday is then? I thought he was a
> > Cancer or a Scorpio... he seems to fit both descriptions. But I
> > thought he'd be older than Harry...
>
> **I** think his birthday is June 24, 1980, which is 3 degrees of Cancer,
> and one month plus one week older than Harry.
>
> bbennett at j... wrote:
> > I realize you guys are having fun figuring this all out, but can you
> > imagine what Hermione would think about it? She probably
> > ranks star charting as only slightly more reliable than divination
>
> Remember, they study Astronomy for all seven years. Hermione must be
> good at star charts even if she doesn't believe that they predict the
> future. I assume that the reason for studying so much Astronomy must be
> that the positions of planets, moons, and distant galaxies influence the
> magical energies of each moment, which could affect spells -- under some
> influences, some spells will be less likely to work or more likely to
> work or more likely to blow up in your face or just need some adjusting
> for the environment.
>
>  "Caius Marcius" <coriolanus wrote:
> > the number four in ancient numerology signified the world (i.e., the
> > four corners of the earth), and  the number three represented the
> > Triune God.  So three times four signifies God's intervention in the
> > terrestrial domain (so does three plus four =  hence the multiple
> > references to seven in the Revelations:
>
> The number Seven has long been considered a very magical number. I
> believe the reason is because there are seven astrological planets --
> that is, objects seen with the naked eye to move regularly in the sky.
> Granted, it can also be four (the four alchemical Elements) plus three
> (past, present, future). Note: I heard an archaeologist lecturer say
> that the Babylonian phrase usually translated as 'ruler of the four
> corners of the world' might really be 'ruler of the four riverbanks'..
>
> Twelve is the twelve astrological constellations. Granted, the
> constellations were invented by people, other cultures make different
> constellations out of the same starts, but the reason our Western
> Culture chose to have 12 of them along the ecliptic is because of the
> average twelve months per year, with 'month' meaning a moon cycle.
>
> In your Bible Study, you would want to remember Seven candlesticks on
> the Menorah in the Temple and Twelve sons of Jacob leading to Twelve
> tribes.
>
> Stephanie Malfoy wrote:
> > My english teacher goes on and on and on about the
> > significance of the number 3, and we are about to start Macbeth <vbg>
> > Anyways, she looks as it is an evil thing
>
> If she really thinks that the number 3 is an evil thing, ask her if she
> means that the Christian Trinity is evil.
>
> Meghan wrote:
> > And for some reason I thought you had to have an exact twin core
> > to do [Priori Incantatem] in the first place? O.o
>
> No. When wands that have twin cores try to fight each other, they can
> make Priori Incantatem instead of what their humans wanted them to do.
> But Priori Incantatem is a charm that any mage with a wand can cast on
> any wand deliberately. Amos Diggory did PI on the wand that Winky was
> holding, to show that it had cast the Dark Mark. The PI in the duel was
> many spells in reverse chronological order, but I am not at all sure if
> PI as a charm can bring out another spell after it brings out the very
> last one cast.
>
> Doreen Rich wrote:
> > In SS,  Hagrid tells Harry about the job of the MOM and Harry
> > asks, "Why?"
> > "Why? Blimey, Harry, everyone'd be wantin' magic solutions to their
> > problems. Nah, we're best left alone." SS-5
>
> That is what Hagrid said, and it probably is what Hagrid was told when
> he was young, and it might be what all wizarding young-uns are told, but
> I suspect it is only an excuse, and the real reason is that the
> wizarding folk are scared of being harmed by jealous/fearful Muggles.
> --
>           /\ /\
>            + +     Mews and views
>          >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston
>
>                      ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
>                      `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
>                      (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
>                     _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
>                    ((('   (((-(((''  ((((
>
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
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groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sat Feb 17 23:15:49 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:15:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's sacrifice/the Dursleys
Message-ID: <20010217231549.C85BB2753@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12535

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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 01:09:24 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:09:24 -0600
Subject: Completely OT, but I have to vent....(and screen saver question)
References: <96mjdu+i78e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <022d01c09947$721e73e0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12536

Is anyone else experiencing MAJOR problems at Yahoo?  It's not just with
clubs and groups; it's with every email that passes into my box--I've been
getting six or seven copies of Neil's one post.

Neil, buddy, I like ya, but that's a bit too much....

Thanks for listening to the rant.

Btw, where is that screen saver at hp.com ?  I went there, but couldn't find
it.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 00:55:26 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 00:55:26 -0000
Subject: Casting - Branagh - Thompson (was accents/casting Lockhart)
In-Reply-To: <96mjdu+i78e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96n6hu+slmf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12537

Couldn't Emma Thompson just do a nice red semi-permanent color and be 
Lily?

I agree about Branagh as Lockhart!! Perfect!!

Another Lily alternate:  Imogene Stubbs, who played Miss Steel in 
Sense and Sensibility. Again, she would have to go red, but that is 
not too difficult. She has a really nice mysterious quality which 
would work in that mirror scene.



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> > The talk of English actors managing American accents brought to my 
> mind one 
> > of the best examples:  Kenneth Branagh in Dead Again.
> > 
> > And speaking of Branagh, I bet he could pull off the Lockhart role 
> quite well.
> > 
> 
> Weird. I was just thinking of Branagh and trying to find him a role. 
> I agree he could easily pull off Lockhart (although he's not pretty 
> enough. Ummm.. well, he's not pretty at all, really, is he?). 
> However, for some reason I see him as Cornelius Fudge. Don't know 
> why, exactly. Anyway, he's a great actor and could pull off 
> practically any role he takes. 
> What really bugs me, BTW, is that there is no part (that I can think 
> of) for Emma Thompson. She is so right for the HP world and such a 
> wonderful actress (and she's British!) - it really is a pity. 
> 
> Oh, and another thing - is there any news on who will play Lily?
> 
> Naama, who walked her dogs for an hour while wearing her brains out 
> trying to cast Lily..




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sun Feb 18 00:57:59 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 00:57:59 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting - Branagh - Thompson (was accents/casting Lockhart)
References: <96n6hu+slmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c09945$d90d6220$615b063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12538


 Emma Thompson 
Too Old ! Forty this year.....


 Imogene Stubbs,
Possibly. 


Michelle




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 02:01:54 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:01:54 -0000
Subject: The Mirror of Erised...
Message-ID: <96naei+umg5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12539

I know this has been discussed in the past. Perhaps to often. I shall 
see whether anyone is interested by the replies I get.

We know what Harry saw in the mirror. We know what Ron saw. We 
possibly (most likely don't) know what Dumbledore saw in the mirror. 
What would other characters see? Hermione? Neville? Voldemort? Draco?

Another thing is whether the things in the mirror are actual or 
metaphoric. One could argue that Harry's parents and family are his 
actual desire. One could also argue that Harry greatest desire is to 
be part of a family, not necessarily his own, however the greatest 
manifestation of that desire is his own family and it is that which 
he therefore sees. 

What about Ron? Is Ron's greatest desire to get the Quidditch cup (or 
whatever I can't my copy of SS or PS) or in fact is it simply to be 
recognised for his accoplishments without having to worry about being 
overshadowed by his family and friends. I'd say the latter.

In other words I'd say that the mirror isn't actually showing what 
one wants the most but erm...am I making ANY sense.

Now what would Hermione see? Herself living happily ever after with 
Harry? (I'm just joking!) Getting the top awards for her academic 
achievement? Or something more along the lines of what I think I 
myself would see (I'm getting to that).

(The Below is rather personal, so if you have no interest in me, as 
I'm sure you don't then don't read it. The only reason I'm posting to 
begin with is because I see myself in Hermione and I think that 
Hermione would see much the same thing.)
Now the other part of this question is what would YOU see? (I know 
this has been asked before but I'm asking again.) I  thought long and 
hard about this and came to several conclusions.

1) One was that I'd see myself doing one of the things I love most- 
traveling.  I would be visiting some of my favourite places in the 
world- England, Italy, New York City, and going to the places I most 
dream about visiting India, Scandinavia...

On second consideration this seemed kinda I don't know- shallow.
 
2)My other consideration was that I'd see myself going to university 
(hopefully in Britain)

3)Then it hit me. I can see the world all I want. I can learn as much 
from books and lectures at University as there are books to buy and 
lectures to listen to. But I'll never really understand anything if I 
don't understand myself. So I think that my greatest desire is to 
know who I am. To to know the answers. The answers to what I'm not 
sure but to know them just the same. To understand the world simply 
because I have a grasp on why I'm in it. 

I see the above as being similar to the type of thing Hermione would 
see. I think that Hermione is very insecure but wants to learn, on 
all levels which means more than just books and cleverness. Does 
anyone have this interpretation of Hermione? 

Am I alone, or are you guys asleep?

Scott






From jessenigma at aol.com  Sun Feb 18 02:43:05 2001
From: jessenigma at aol.com (jessenigma at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:43:05 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Mirror of Erised...
Message-ID: <a6.10275c88.27c090b9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12540

In a message dated 2/17/2001 9:03:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
harry_potter00 at yahoo.com writes:

> In other words I'd say that the mirror isn't actually showing what 
>  one wants the most but erm...am I making ANY sense.

So you are saying that the mirror shows an example of what you want the most? 
It seems that Harry and Ron want very intangible things, but the images shown 
are ways that their dreams could become reality. Or something like that. That 
makes perfect sense. :)

> Now the other part of this question is what would YOU see? 

One of the biggest fears in my life is that I will never be successful and, 
thus, never be remembered by anyone. I want people to recognize me, to know 
me, to remember me when I'm gone. I think having people remember me is a 
tremendous compliment, because I feel more or less like another person in the 
crowd--not what I want. I'm not really sure how you would represent this in 
an image. I don't want to be a celebrity (such a fleeting thing), but a 
person who truly leaves a lasting mark on another person....I guess almost 
like Dumbledore has on Harry. Deep and genuine respect. How on Earth could 
you put this into one image? Oh, well. I suppose I'll have to think about 
that a bit more.

jessica


--
www.blacklady.nu



From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Feb 18 03:24:34 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 03:24:34 -0000
Subject: Harry's Pureblood Status
Message-ID: <96nf9i+q21m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12541

Hi all!  

I am in the middle of a GoF re-read and just finished Chapter 24, 
Rita Skeeter's Scoop.  At the end of the chapter, Hagrid is telling 
Harry, Ron, and Hermione about his mum and he says this:

"Yeh know what I'd love, Harry? I'd love yeh ter win, I really would. 
It would show 'em all...yeh don' have ter be *pureblood* ter do it.  
Yeh don have ter be ashamed of who yeh are."  (the italics are mine)

Woah!  I assumed that since Harry's mum and dad were a witch and 
wizard, Harry *was* a pureblood.  I know Lily was Muggle-born, but 
still, I didn't think that would qualify him as not "pureblood".  
When Malfoy uses the term Mudblood, he only aims it towards Hermione 
a full-blown Muggle-born, not Harry.  

Not that Harry's "pureblood" status matters one whit to me, I'd love 
him anyway, but I was confused by this discovery.  So, what do y'all 
think?

Trina 




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Feb 18 03:26:24 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 03:26:24 -0000
Subject: Squibs / non-magic
In-Reply-To: <20010217231549.C85BB2753@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <96nfd0+hfvn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12542

>Kelley wrote:
> Is that a hard and fast rule, that squibs 
> >are from long wizarding lines?  That they're the exceptions in 
> >otherwise all-magic families?  If so, then you're right; though I 
> >guess JKR could have more in store regarding the Evanses...
>
>Star wrote:
> Well that's how squibs are defined but then did LK say that it 
would be a squib or just somebudy developing powers later in life? I 
think it's the later but I still doubt Petunia developing skills but 
it's still a possibility.  I can go with the idea that this person JK 
has talked about just hasn't been seen yet, that would be 
interesting. JK holds all the power so what ever she says goes. 
<<<<<< 

Yes, it was the second one, she didn't ever mention squibs in this 
comment; that was just something that some of us extrapolated after 
whichever chat that was.  You're right, it may end up being a 
character we haven't met yet; I'd rather it be someone we're taking 
for granted, someone we already know and sort of take for granted.  
Know what I mean?

Kelley 




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 18 03:31:53 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:31:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting - Branagh - Thompson (was  accents/casting Lockhart)
References: <96mjdu+i78e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8F4229.F59C9613@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12543

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> What really bugs me, BTW, is that there is no part (that I can think
> of) for Emma Thompson. She is so right for the HP world and such a
> wonderful actress (and she's British!) - it really is a pity.
>
> Oh, and another thing - is there any news on who will play Lily?

Um, there's a conceptual leap you're not making here. Thompson would be
the perfect Lily. She's not too old--she's got a very young face, and if
she could pull off "Sense & Sensibility" in the past couple years, she
can sure do Lily. And would do a tremendous job, in my
never-quite-humble opinion.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 18 03:40:39 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:40:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filch as a hall monitor, too?
References: <96l77e+mado@eGroups.com> <000201c0993f$4cdcc4e0$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <3A8F4436.EB890A07@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12544

Denise R wrote:

> Speaking of drawers, I wonder.  Is there a drawer in that cabinet on
> the 4-some?  or has it been converted to a more normal use now that
> they're gone/out-of-school-dead?

I'll bet there is. Remember, Fred and George stole the Marauders' Map
out of a file drawer in Filch's office. It's not certain that the file
was on the Marauders themselves, but it's strongly implied later--Lupin
tells Harry that he (Lupin) happens to know that the map had been
confiscated years ago. The implication is that it was taken from the
Marauders themselves, and thus would be in their file.

Or maybe not.

--Amanda

>
>
> ______________________________________________
> ??????????????????????????????????????????????
> ??????????????????????????????????????????????
> ~~Dee~~
> :)
>
> We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and
> adventure.
> There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek
> them with
> our eyes open.
>
> -Jawaharlal Nehru
> Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
> http://www.icq.com
>
> For those who love to cook:
> http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
> ______________________________________________
> ??????????????????????????????????????????????
> ??????????????????????????????????????????????
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at bccs.org>
> To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 12:54 AM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Changing as she goes along.
>
>
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...>
> wrote:
> > > Filch is probably an overseer of the House Elves.  After all, when
>
> > you have
> > > a castle as huge as Hogwarts, with hundreds of kids tracking in
> > dirt &
> > > whatnot, you need plenty of people to clean the floors, stoke the
> > > fireplaces, do the laundry, cook, schlep the luggage and props
> > around, etc
> > > etc.
> >
> > I see a very fundamental difference between what Filch does and what
>
> > the house elves do. They are NOT seen by the students if they're
> > doing their job correctly. They do the mundane and basically
> mindless
> > tasks. They have no interaction with the students at all, they do
> > their work behind the scenes. Nearly Headless Nick says "You're not
> > supposed to see them, are you? That's the mark of a good house-elf,
> > isn't it, that you don't know it's there?"
> >
> > Filch, on the other hand, is a staff member and an authority figure.
>
> > He does far more than clean the floors. He administers punishments,
> > he maintains order, he check passes to Hogsmeade at the front
> > door...he interacts with students all the time. He also manages the
> > cleaning and things like that, sure, and I suppose he might be the
> > one the house-elves report to.
> >
> > Steve Vander Ark
> > The Harry Potter Lexicon
> > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon
> >
> >
> >
> > Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information,
> see our
> > website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can
> check out
> our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
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> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


                www.                   .com


>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 18 04:07:06 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:07:06 -0800
Subject: Pureblood / Hall Monitor
Message-ID: <3A8F4A69.81FDE14E@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12545

Trina wrote:
> Whoah!  I assumed that since Harry's mum and dad were a witch
> and wizard, Harry *was* a pureblood.  I know Lily was
> Muggle-born, but  still, I didn't think that would qualify him
> as not "pureblood".  When Malfoy uses the term Mudblood,
> he only aims it towards Hermione, a full-blown Muggle-born,
> not Harry.

Apparently the racists call a Muggle-born witch or wizard a Mudblood but
they call the child of a Pureblood and a Mudblood a Halfblood and also
call the child of a Pureblood and a Muggle (e.g. Seamus) a Halfblood. I
keep wondering if they have a whole technical hierarchy of racist
vocabulary, like mulatto, quadroon, octaroon, high-yellow, bien-passer
and other American words I forget.

Amanda wrote:
> I'll bet there is. Remember, Fred and George stole the
> Marauders' Map out of a file drawer in Filch's office. It's
> not certain that the file was on the Marauders themselves,
> but it's strongly implied later

PoA says: "So he hauled us off to his office and started threatening us
with the usual --" detention disembowelment and we couldn't help
noticing a drawer in one of his filing cabinets marked Confiscated and
Highly Dangerous.

"Don't tell me --" said Harry, starting to grin.

"Well, what would you've done?" said Fred. "George caused a diversion by
dropping another Dungbomb, I whipped the drawer open, and grabbed --
this."
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From lexac3 at usa.net  Sun Feb 18 04:16:14 2001
From: lexac3 at usa.net (Alex Corvus)
Date: 17 Feb 2001 21:16:14 MST
Subject: Casting couch, take 357 (Sirius)
Message-ID: <20010218041614.10807.qmail@nw178.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12546

Sirius Black ... Peter Wingfield (Methos/Adam Pierson from Highlander). Oh
yeah. 

I can't take credit for the idea - I stole it from Livia, who's got a Black
"Wanted" poster on her site using a photo manip of PW. But it seemed instantly
right.

Alexa

One can survive quite comfortably within fandom without developing a taste for
slash or without even reading any of it. Slash does, however, constitute a
significant genre within fan publishing and may be fandom's most original
contribution to the field of popular literature.
-- Henry Jenkins, "Textual Poachers," p. 188

____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1



From vaile2000 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 18 05:46:57 2001
From: vaile2000 at hotmail.com (Tina Smart)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:46:57 +1100
Subject: Sirius - casting
Message-ID: <F304ednHM3SOlbpH71y00010723@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12547

I think that Alfred Molina would be perfect. He has been in Enchanting 
April, American Friends (the one that takes over Oxford), Anna Karenina 
(Lenin), and was very convincing in all.
He also has the Sirius looks that I imagine when I read HP. He has the dark 
hair, the beard, the big build, the rough face, perfect I think.
He's even a Brit!

Tina.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From millilita at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 18 09:15:56 2001
From: millilita at hotmail.com (millilita at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:15:56 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Chart / Ron's B-day
In-Reply-To: <96jr93+ibkk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96o3sc+aum1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12548

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
> A. Do we have any idea when Ron's Birthday is? I would hazard a 
guess 
> at Leo, but you guys know more than I about what JK may have said.
> 
> B. if so, can we have a Hermione/Ron chart?
> 
> Heather M.

My astrology ain't up to scratch, but I would guess at Gemini, with 
some Taurus. If Ron was a Leo, that would make him pretty similar to 
Harry, but it could also justify why we never hear about Ron's 
birthday.

Gemini's are meant to be witty and on a negative note, two-faced, 
meaning they usually ditch a project in favor of a more interesting 
one.

Taurus is just added for the stubbornness.




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sun Feb 18 11:17:23 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:17:23 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting - Branagh - Thompson (was  accents/casting Lockhart)
References: <96mjdu+i78e@eGroups.com> <3A8F4229.F59C9613@texas.net>
Message-ID: <003301c0999c$63acf0c0$a140063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12549



> Um, there's a conceptual leap you're not making here. Thompson would
be
> the perfect Lily. She's not too old--she's got a very young face, and
if
> she could pull off "Sense & Sensibility" in the past couple years, she
> can sure do Lily. And would do a tremendous job, in my
> never-quite-humble opinion.
I love Emma Thompson. A lot. But have you seen what she looks like
lately ? She's had a baby and it has really aged her. I just don't think
she would look right by the time they get to POA - if they include an
image of her there.

Michelle




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Feb 18 13:56:58 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:56:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs / non-magic
References: <96nfd0+hfvn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004501c099b2$aa029be0$9214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12550

Star wrote:
> Well that's how squibs are defined but then did LK say that it 
would be a squib or just somebudy developing powers later in life? I 
think it's the later but I still doubt Petunia developing skills but 
it's still a possibility.  

Wouldn't it be the perfect payback if Dudley Dursley developed these powers? I can just picture him throwing one of his tantrums using his wizardry to suspend his parents near the ceiling until they give in to his selfishness.

Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Feb 18 13:59:35 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:59:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Mirror of Erised...
References: <96naei+umg5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c099b3$076921a0$9214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12551

What would other characters see? Hermione? Neville? Voldemort? Draco?


I think Hermione sees herself with her hair pulled back in a bun and square spectacles on her nose, teaching Transfiguration Class. 
Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 14:54:08 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:54:08 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Chart / Ron's B-day
In-Reply-To: <96o3sc+aum1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96onmg+t3lh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12552

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., millilita at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
> > A. Do we have any idea when Ron's Birthday is? I would hazard a 
> guess 
> > at Leo, but you guys know more than I about what JK may have said.
> > 
> > B. if so, can we have a Hermione/Ron chart?
> > 
> > Heather M.
> 
> My astrology ain't up to scratch, but I would guess at Gemini, with 
> some Taurus. If Ron was a Leo, that would make him pretty similar 
to 
> Harry, but it could also justify why we never hear about Ron's 
> birthday.
> 
> Gemini's are meant to be witty and on a negative note, two-faced, 
> meaning they usually ditch a project in favor of a more interesting 
> one.
> 
> Taurus is just added for the stubbornness.

That's as good a guess as any, I reckon. I like Leo because we're 
stubborn, we like the limelight (which would explain why he's so 
irritated at his family and Harry for having it when he doesn't). 
We're also loyal and brave. (Lions, after all.) I like the Taurus 
explanation as well. 

I cast charts, but nothing quite as complex as what have been posted 
here. Could someone with a small British child as a relative mail the 
question to Blue Peter? "When is Ron's Birthday!??"

Heather M.




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sun Feb 18 15:26:52 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:26:52 -0000
Subject: Latin
Message-ID: <96opjs+67r1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12553

It's been a long time since I took Latin, but a lot of JKR's 
incantations don't look quite correct.  Perhaps that's intentional.  
For example:

"expecto patronum" - should be "patronem" - 3rd decl. acc.

"priori incantatem" - should be "incantatum"; I'm not sure that the 
agreement between "priori" and "incantat[u]m" is correct

"expelliarmus" - "armus" = "shoulder" (vulgate and neo-Latin); 
weapons would be "armamentum"

I notice that some of the above have been "corrected" in the French 
version.  Of course, Rowling was probably just inventing Latinate-
sounding phrases that English-speaking readers would readily 
understand...

-Jim Flanagan




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Feb 18 15:47:26 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:47:26 -0000
Subject: Filch's job
Message-ID: <96oqqe+pjre@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12554

	We largely see Filch cleaning up student-made messes. This makes 
sense, since if the House Elves were allowed to do it, they would 
probably whisk all the evidence away before the culprits could be 
identified.  I can't see a House Elf being willing to put a student in 
the way of punishment even if it is well deserved  And of course Filch 
needs his own  brooms and such, since the House Elves' implements would 
be way too small.

Pippin





From particle at urbanet.ch  Sun Feb 18 16:15:06 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:15:06 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Latin
References: <96opjs+67r1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A8FF509.93384297@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 12555

Jim Flanagan wrote:

> It's been a long time since I took Latin, but a lot of JKR's
> incantations don't look quite correct.  Perhaps that's intentional.
> For example:
>
> "expecto patronum" - should be "patronem" - 3rd decl. acc.
>

You mean it isn't 1st decl. acc.? Does patronus actually exist in Latin?

- Firebolt, who had no choice but to give up Latin and still misses it




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sun Feb 18 16:20:43 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:20:43 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...]
In-Reply-To: <3A8C83BE.EF51550A@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <96osor+t7pu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12556

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> If you didn't get it in HTML, the link is
> http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/home.jsp - the password is 
MUGGLE
> 
> Dinah wrote:
> 
> > Ahem Heidi?
> >
> > Any link for that?
> >
> > ~ Dinah ~
> >
> > ICQ: 10 44 52 471
> > YM: bludger_witch
> >
> > People are like stained-glass windows.
> > They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
> > but when the darkness sets in,
> > their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from 
within.
> >
> > ~Elizabeth K?bler-Ross
> 

I have visited this site a couple of times & I'm really disappointed, 
especially in the message boards.  I don't know whether it's 
intentional or not, but there's quite a bit of bad language and 
virtually unintelligable messages.  

Just a heads-up for anyone who's considering joining.  

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker

----------------------------------------------------------
"...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death..."  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosoper's Stone

Sarcasm--just another service I offer  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 18 15:59:28 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:59:28 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Sunday chat sessions
Message-ID: <006d01c099c3$df83c080$593770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12557

*****Instructions for HP for Grown Ups weekly chat sessions

We have a scheduled chat session every Sunday....

**Those of you who have signed up (or were signed up) with Yahoo and
transferred to Yahoo Groups will be able to use the chat facility in the
Yahoo Groups club area by just clicking on Chat:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/chat (you will need to log in to
the site first with your ID and password).

**You will appear under the default name you used to sign up to Yahoo, but
remember that Yahoo gives you the option of creating an alternative profile
(ID) and using that in the chatroom, if you'd rather pretend to be
i_love_lupin than jbloggs999, for example.

**You could just click on 'Chat' in the club area and be done with it, but
there is an alternative chat facility that taps directly into the Yahoo
Groups chat, provided by Cheetachat (http://www.cheetachat.com).  If you
sign up for Cheetachat you'll get lots of groovy additional features and the
option of having an Avatar [little picture] attached to your name.

**If you register with Cheetachat, you can save the HPforGrownUps chatroom
as one of your favourites by selecting Rooms from the top menu bar, then
Favorite Rooms, then Manage Favorite Rooms.  Then, if you then click 'ADD',
and enter the following handy code  -  *g.2176166:1  - the HPfor GrownUps
chatroom will become one of your favourites.  Could it be any other way?

**All the Sunday chats are recorded and stored in a sister club,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsChatScripts/  run by Dee, Simon
and Catlady, so be aware that your words won't just vanish into the
cyberether.  The Chatscripts club will give you all the information on the
chats, if you ever need another reminder.

**For new members, the Sunday chats run from around 8pm GMT onwards.  To
check the times for your zone, go to the club calendar
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/calendar) and make sure the
time zone on the right reads correctly for your area.  This should adjust
all event times to your local time.

See you there!

Neil
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (ignition on)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

HPfGU Moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Visit the Portkey for all the info on this club:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/%20%20Portkey.htm




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Feb 18 16:42:07 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:42:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Latin
References: <96opjs+67r1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c099c9$c24127a0$9214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12558



  It's been a long time since I took Latin, but a lot of JKR's 
  incantations don't look quite correct.  Perhaps that's intentional.  
  For example:

  "expecto patronum" - should be "patronem" - 3rd decl. acc.

  "priori incantatem" - should be "incantatum"; I'm not sure that the 
  agreement between "priori" and "incantat[u]m" is correct

  "expelliarmus" - "armus" = "shoulder" (vulgate and neo-Latin); 
  weapons would be "armamentum"

  I notice that some of the above have been "corrected" in the French 
  version.  Of course, Rowling was probably just inventing Latinate-
  sounding phrases that English-speaking readers would readily 
  understand...

  -Jim Flanagan

  In an interview with JKR, she was asked about this. She said that she made up all the words for her spells. They just "appear" to be Latin. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Feb 18 16:47:13 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:47:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...]
References: <96osor+t7pu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a201c099ca$74f91ba0$9214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12559

Parker,

I have just recently joined HP4GU and have experienced neither of these problems. I guess I will have to go back and do a re-read to see what I am missing.

Doreen


I have visited this site a couple of times & I'm really disappointed, 
especially in the message boards.  I don't know whether it's 
intentional or not, but there's quite a bit of bad language and 
virtually unintelligable messages.  

Just a heads-up for anyone who's considering joining.  

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rina at love-productions.com  Sun Feb 18 16:51:52 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:51:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting - Lily - Anderson
Message-ID: <00af01c099cb$18134220$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12560

Michelle wrote:

<<I love Emma Thompson. A lot. But have you seen what she looks like
lately ? She's had a baby and it has really aged her. I just don't think
she would look right by the time they get to POA - if they include an
image of her there.>>

Aren't they going to need her for P/SS? Even if they don't include an extra
scene at the beginning maybe showing Harry with his parents, Hagrid gives
Harry a wizarding photo album of his parents at the end. So theoretically,
both Lily and and James need to be cast. And I still vote for Gillian
Anderson as Lily. LOL Red hair, intelligent, kind, mischievious, loving,
mom, she does them all. <g> And she's about the right age - 32 - with the
ability to play older or younger as necessary. Since I'm all mixed up on how
old they're supposed to be, dead or alive. LOL

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Feb 18 16:56:12 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:56:12 -0000
Subject: Conjuring
In-Reply-To: <96kla5+p5h0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ourc+e0kg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12561

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sashibuya at h... wrote:
[snip]
> Also, perhaps for the object to be conjured, one must know where it 
> is, or have it in one's possession somewhere. So Dumbledore 
conjured 
> up a chair from the storeroom, as not having enough chairs must 
> happen quite a bit. On the other hand, this makes one wonder why 
> Sirius keeps around some manacles.....

While I am sure that many of us have some (rather kinky and perhaps 
hopeful) ideas about why Sirius keeps around some manacles, I think 
maybe that he recalls all the torture devices that Argus Filch keeps 
in his office, in the hopes that Dumbledore will let him use them to 
torture the students.  Doesnt Filch say something about how he used 
to hang students from the ceiling in the good old days?  Probably 
just lies, but still I wouldnt be surprised if old Filch didnt have 
manacles and chains and a few other charming devices lying around.

Another possibly is that Sirius transfigured some other object that 
was in the room into manacles.

--Joywitch




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Feb 18 17:01:49 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:01:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Latin
References: <96opjs+67r1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ae01c099cc$7ec9b3e0$9214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12562

oops. It was the spells that were made up ...

Q. "Ms. Rowling, for being fictional books, the Harry Potter books have a
great grasp of the Latin language. I have noticed that many, if not most, of
the names and incantations are of Latin heritage. How much research does it
take to give these books their Latin heritage?"

A. "My Latin, such as it is, is self-taught. I enjoy feeling that wizards
would continue to use this dead language in their everyday life."

Q. "How did you make the spells? Did you make them up, or are they real
names of people and places?

A "The spells are made up. I have met people who assure me, very seriously,
that they are trying to do them, and I can assure them, just as seriously,
that they don't work."


----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Flanagan
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 9:26 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Latin


It's been a long time since I took Latin, but a lot of JKR's
incantations don't look quite correct.  Perhaps that's intentional.
For example:

"expecto patronum" - should be "patronem" - 3rd decl. acc.

"priori incantatem" - should be "incantatum"; I'm not sure that the
agreement between "priori" and "incantat[u]m" is correct

"expelliarmus" - "armus" = "shoulder" (vulgate and neo-Latin);
weapons would be "armamentum"

I notice that some of the above have been "corrected" in the French
version.  Of course, Rowling was probably just inventing Latinate-
sounding phrases that English-speaking readers would readily
understand...

-Jim Flanagan







From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sun Feb 18 17:16:43 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:16:43 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...]
In-Reply-To: <00a201c099ca$74f91ba0$9214a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <96p01r+7730@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12563

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Parker,
> 
> I have just recently joined HP4GU and have experienced neither of 
these problems. I guess I will have to go back and do a re-read to 
see what I am missing.
> 
> Doreen
> 
> 
> ACK!!  I didn't make myself clear enough, I guess.  I wasn't 
talking about this wonderful site that I spend 9/10ths of my time on, 
but the new Harry Potter/WB web site.  Hope this clears up any 
misunderstanding.  

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker

-------------------------------------------------------------
"...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death..."  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

Sarcasm--Just another service I offer--T-shirt message 
---------------------------------------------------------------> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 17:19:41 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:19:41 -0000
Subject: Casting - Lily - Cate Blanchett
In-Reply-To: <00af01c099cb$18134220$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <96p07d+vjs1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12564

Lily needs to appear in the Mirror of Erised, in the photos, and 
potentially at the beginning.

How about Cate Blanchett, who played Elizabeth I?? She certainly is 
striking!

Suzanne




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 17:20:37 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:20:37 -0000
Subject: Casting couch, take 357 (Sirius)
In-Reply-To: <20010218041614.10807.qmail@nw178.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <96p095+3hub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12565


Where is this website????


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Alex Corvus <lexac3 at u...> wrote:
> Sirius Black ... Peter Wingfield (Methos/Adam Pierson from 
Highlander). Oh
> yeah. 
> 
> I can't take credit for the idea - I stole it from Livia, who's got 
a Black
> "Wanted" poster on her site using a photo manip of PW. But it seemed 
instantly
> right.
> 
> Alexa
> 
> One can survive quite comfortably within fandom without developing a 
taste for
> slash or without even reading any of it. Slash does, however, 
constitute a
> significant genre within fan publishing and may be fandom's most 
original
> contribution to the field of popular literature.
> -- Henry Jenkins, "Textual Poachers," p. 188
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free email and a permanent address at 
http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Feb 18 17:39:40 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:39:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...]
References: <96p01r+7730@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00cf01c099d1$c6e6c140$9214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12566

To quote someone else, recently, "Must learn to read the subject line" I only read the "Re:HPforGrownups" part ... and took immediate offense that someone would say that about this site. I have encountered nothing but wonderfully funny, witty, and kind people here. 

Go have another cup of coffee, Doreen, and wake up what blonde brain cells you have left.

Doreen_not representing Iowa for fear of deportation
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: pbnesbit at msn.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 11:16 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Fwd: Your Official Harry Potter Invitation...]


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
  > Parker,
  > 
  > I have just recently joined HP4GU and have experienced neither of 
  these problems. I guess I will have to go back and do a re-read to 
  see what I am missing.
  > 
  > Doreen
  > 
  > 
  > ACK!!  I didn't make myself clear enough, I guess.  I wasn't 
  talking about this wonderful site that I spend 9/10ths of my time on, 
  but the new Harry Potter/WB web site.  Hope this clears up any 
  misunderstanding.  

  Peace & Plenty, 

  Parker

  -------------------------------------------------------------
  "...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
  death..."  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

  Sarcasm--Just another service I offer--T-shirt message 
  ---------------------------------------------------------------> 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sun Feb 18 17:44:44 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:44:44 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Casting - Lily - Cate Blanchett
References: <96p07d+vjs1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006501c099d2$84193400$8f52063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12567



> Lily needs to appear in the Mirror of Erised, in the photos, and
> potentially at the beginning.
True. But wouldn't it be better not to see them so that we have a nice
surprise later on ? I mean, we all know that he looks like James, but
with Lily's eyes. I'd rather wait until further in rather than know what
they look like for almost the start. Good cameo roles, if that's how
they'll do it, though.

Michelle




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Feb 18 17:47:46 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:47:46 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Mirror of Erised...
In-Reply-To: <004d01c099b3$076921a0$9214a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEAKDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12568

Nah, Hermione sees herself as Minister of Magic, pushing through her reforms
program with equal rights for all Magical beings.



-----Original Message-----
From: Doreen [mailto:nera at rconnect.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 7:00 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] The Mirror of Erised...


What would other characters see? Hermione? Neville? Voldemort? Draco?


I think Hermione sees herself with her hair pulled back in a bun and square
spectacles on her nose, teaching Transfiguration Class.
Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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From rboswell at mediaone.net  Sun Feb 18 17:59:12 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:59:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:  Little Women and H/H (was- Questions...)
References: <96mfic+c8kf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001701c099d4$808b4060$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12569

    I was reaaaaally dissappointed with the end of Little Women.   I was so
angry with Jo that I stopped reading the book until it was assigned in
Language Arts class. I couldn't stand the professor, and I always thought Jo
would have married Laurie. And I can't stand Amy either...the little evil
imp.  Grrrrr...

Becca




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 18 18:03:24 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:03:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Into the Chamber...
Message-ID: <F22707ssmfmktSdD3Jy0000d7ee@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12570

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In re-reading the CoS today I came up with a question. Just how did
they know it was Ginny who was taken into the chamber.

If there really ARE 1,000 students at Hogwarts it would certainly
take time to find out which one it was. Also it seems that most
students didn't event know what was going on.

So how did they know?

Scott
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Magic Scott....Magic.  Actually, I am sure it would be pretty simple.  We 
don't know exactly how long before Ron and Harry found out that the teachers 
knew, and it could easily be said that they did a "house roll-call".  Who 
knows, I have always wondered if Hogwarts has a clock such as at the 
Weasley's that Dumbledore holds on to.  Except this may say "hookie, ill, 
mortal peril, detention, quidditch, class, etc."  But anyways, to your 
question, just because students dont know whats going on does not mean 
teachers don't.  I am sure they had lots of great contingency plans all 
ready and one of those was how to discern if something happens to students.

Stephanie
Who saw a Harry Potter Movie poster outside of her local theatre with 
November 16,2001 for the release date

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sun Feb 18 18:11:00 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:11:00 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Into the Chamber...
In-Reply-To: <F22707ssmfmktSdD3Jy0000d7ee@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEIPDDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12571

Scott asked: "In re-reading the CoS today I came up with a question. Just
how did they know it was Ginny who was taken into the chamber.

If there really ARE 1,000 students at Hogwarts it would certainly take time
to find out which one it was. Also it seems that most students didn't event
know what was going on.

So how did they know?"

I think there is a fairly simple answer to this.


The writing is found on the wall, which says 'Her skeleton will lie in the
chamber forever'.

So they narrow it down to being a female student that is missing. The
writing is found during a lesson so it is easy enough to work out who is
missing from each lesson, as each teacher can do a role call of who should
be present in his or her lesson.

They then find the females on this list and work out which are unaccounted
for and get left with Ginny as being the only one missing and with no
explanation for why she is not in lesson.


Simon
--
Moderator of the HPforGrownUps-ChatScripts Group.
HPforGrownUps is the place for the best weekly chat about all things related
to the Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling. For more information please
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsChatScripts or feel free to
e-mail me at simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk





From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sun Feb 18 18:39:28 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:39:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Latin
In-Reply-To: <96opjs+67r1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102181318050.14461-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12572

On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, Jim Flanagan wrote:

> It's been a long time since I took Latin, but a lot of JKR's 
> incantations don't look quite correct.  Perhaps that's intentional.  
> For example:
> 
> "expecto patronum" - should be "patronem" - 3rd decl. acc.

Actually, it's funny -- this spell is one of the only ones that is
correct Latin.  'patronus' is 2nd declension, not 3rd, precisely as JKR
has it.  'Expecto patronum' translates to 'I await/look for a
protector'.  'Expecto' would be more regularly spelled 'exspecto',
however.  (BTW, does anyone know why 'expecto' was changed to 'spero' in
the French translation?)

> "priori incantatem" - should be "incantatum"; I'm not sure that the 
> agreement between "priori" and "incantat[u]m" is correct

The noun formed from the incanto root actually is 'incantamentum'.  
(It's not the best Latin choice for a word, but is from this same root.)
'Incantatum' would be a substantive formed off the fourth principle part
of the verb, the perfect passive participle, meaning, roughly, 'a things
which has been incanted', rather than an 'incantation' proper. There
simply is no 3rd declesion word incantas, incantatis to yield
'incantatem' (which would mean more like 'the quality of an
incantation', 'incantationness'), but if there were, 'priori' certainly
wouldn't agree with it.  'Priori incantatem' is a completely meaningless
phrase in Latin.

While we're on the topic, most of the spells, in fact, are not "real"
Latin.  The spells basically divide into three groups (using the list on
The Brat Queen's page,
http://countylimerick.prohosting.com/learn/potter_spells.htm): real
Latin, real Latin that doesn't make much sense or is mixed with fake
Latin, and fake Latin.

In the first group: accio, crucio, diffindo, expecto patronum, ferula,
nox, sonorus, and reparo.  I think it's worth noting that all but one of
these are indeed the form you'll find listed in the dictionary
('patronum' is the exception'); they've also got some relatively rare
words ('ferula', in the meaning of 'splint', 'diffindo', 'crucio' used
in the active).  (Also worth noting, 'sonorus' is gendered masculine in
Latin, which wouldn't agree with an understood 'vox' ('voice'), nor
would it agree with an understood 'ego' ('I'), if the speaker were a
woman.  IOW, not quite proper Latin.)

In the second group, rather larger: densaugeo, finite incantatem,
impedimenta, imperio, impervious, incendio, locomoto mortis, morsmordre,
priori incantato, reducto, rictusempra, ridikulus.  'Densaugeo' would
have to be 'dentes augeo'.  'finite' is Latin, yes, but it means either
'you all finish!' (a command) or 'o finished person!', while
'incantatem' is not Latin, as I noted above.  'impedimenta' is Latin,
but it means either 'hindrances' (plural), or more regularly, 'baggage'.

'imperio' is the ablative of the noun, 'by means of power',
roughly, not 'I command', which would be 'impero' like the forms
above.  'impervious' is perhaps a typo for 'impervius', which is Latin,
but has the same gender problems as sonorus, FWIW.  'incendio' is also
an abl. noun, like imperio.  

'locomoto' is not Latin, and while 'mortis' is, 'motion of death'
doesn't make too much sense anyway.  (I'm sure JKR was thinking of rigor
mortis, but it's the 'rigor' part that implies lack of motion; the
'mortis' has to do with the fact that it's death which causes the
stiffness.)  'mors' is Latin, 'mordre' is not.  'priori incantato' is
another noun phrase in the ablative, like 'imperio' (see above).

'reducto' is either a substantive in the ablative ('by means of the
thing that has been withdrawn') or a (frequentative) verb meaning 'I
withdraw', neither of which makes much sense, since the spell forces
your enemy to withdraw. 'rictu' is Latin, 'sempra' is not.  ('rictu
semper' would only make sense anyway if one takes 'rictus' in a
metaphorical sense of laughing, rather than the root meaning of a
'gaping mouth'.)

'ridikulus' is basically Latin, though again subject to the gender
problem, but c is the normal orthography (which JKR uses elsewhere), not
k.

In the last group are the completely non-Latin, either because of form
or root: alohomora, aparecium, avada kedavra, dissenium, engorgio,
ennervate, expelliarmus, furnunculus, lumos, obliviate, peskipiksi
persternomi, petrificus totalus, relashio, tarantallegra, waddiwasi,
wingardium leviosa.

So, yes, a few of the spells are, whether by design or accident (and I
lean towards accident, myself, but that's neither here nor there) real
Latin, but the *vast* majority are not.  But they 'sound' like Latin,
the magical language par excellance in popular culture, and I'm sure
that's all they were designed to do.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.






From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 20:12:12 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:12:12 -0000
Subject: Interim Ruling-- what in the sam hill is this?
In-Reply-To: <20010103161121.71308.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96paas+s2tg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12573


I emailed Heidi about this but haven't heard from her yet.

I am a little perturbed that the judge did not simply dismiss this 
nonsense. Those of you who are lawyers in this forum: what do you make 
of this thing? Maybe my legalese is not up to snuff.

Meanwhile on my end: I have failed utterly in my attempts to find any 
existing copy of any of Stouffer's texts. Usually I am the kind of 
person who can find anything, anywhere. *Shrug* Makes me wonder if 
they exist at all frankly. 

Onward to more enjoyable topics....

Thanks!

Suzanne





--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi tandy <heiditandy at y...> wrote:
> You can read a summary of the decision at
> http://ipcenter.bna.com/pic/document/1,1103,1_765,00.html
> The ruling was a mixed bag for Scholastic/JKR.
> In summary, the court held that Stouffer has the right
> to present evidence supporting her copyright and
> trademark claims but not about her defamation and
> tortious interference with contract claims. 
> 
> 1. The court dismissed Nancy's misrepresentation
> claims but allowed her to replead them as false
> designation of origin claims (which is identical to
> trademark claims). The specific allegations in this
> counterclaim do not involve any false representations
> per se, but rather allege that the Harry Potter books
> misappropriate certain aspects of Stouffer's books.
> The counterclaim points to: (1) "Muggles" as the name
> of non-magical characters; (2) the "Harry Potter" and
> "Lilly Potter" character and names (similar to
> Stouffer's "Larry Potter" and "Lilly Potter"
> characters); (3) the "Nelville" character and name
> (similar to Stouffer's "Nevils" character); (4) the
> "Keeper of the Keys" (similar to Stouffer's "Keeper of
> the Gardens"); and (5) "Nimbus" for a flying broom
> (similar to Stouffer's "Nimbus" for a flying warrior).
> 
> 
> 2. Judge Schwartz held that Stouffer alleged
> sufficient facts to support each of the reverse
> palming off elements. Stouffer alleged that each of
> the marks, character names, and likenesses were
> published in her literary works; that Scholastic used
> the works as its own in promoting its services; that
> consumers have falsely associated her works with
> Scholastic's works; and that she has suffered
> irreparable harm and damages.  This doesn't mean that
> she proved them or has any evidence to support her
> allegations. All it means is, she said "this is this,
> and that is that."
> 
> 3. The court did dismiss Stouffer's claims for
> defamation and tortious interference with prospective
> business relations as inadequately plead. 
> 
> Full text at http://pub.bna.com/ptcj/9911480.htm 
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> heidi tandy
> 
> What Maureen Dowd thinks David Souter was thinking on Monday, 
December 11, 2000: I know the Bushes are furious at me. That'll teach 
'em to assume that a guy living like a monk in an isolated New 
Hampshire farmhouse is some kind of Live Free or Die nut.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/




From john at walton.to  Sun Feb 18 20:35:34 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:35:34 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Latin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102181318050.14461-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <B6B5E296.C2BC%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 12574

Jen Faulkner quoth:

> Actually, it's funny -- this spell is one of the only ones that is
> correct Latin.  'patronus' is 2nd declension, not 3rd, precisely as JKR
> has it.  'Expecto patronum' translates to 'I await/look for a
> protector'.  'Expecto' would be more regularly spelled 'exspecto',
> however.  (BTW, does anyone know why 'expecto' was changed to 'spero' in
> the French translation?)

Probably because the French for "I hope" is "espe'rer", and so the "sper"
morpheme is reminscent of that. There is no French verb "expecter".

--John




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Feb 18 21:01:10 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:01:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moaning Myrtle (filk)
References: <982322587.269.87491.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002301c099ed$ecb8b240$18c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12575


Moaning Myrtle (from CoS, Chap. 16)

(To the tune of Mona Lisa)

(THE SCENE: The First Floor Girls' Restroom of Gryffindor. Enter HARRY
POTTER, Ron Weasley and Prof. Lockhart.  HARRY, in the belief that she holds
the missing link to the Chamber of Secrets mystery, calls out to her)

HARRY:
Moaning Myrtle, Moaning Myrtle, so we've named you
This is Harry Potter 'pon your potty tile
Are you roiling in your toilet, 'cause they shamed you,
With that Moaning Myrtle whining that's your style?

Can we be privy to your riddle, Moaning Myrtle?
Is there some way to flush away your pain?
Secret sorrows often tinkle in your mem'ry
Did your dreams end at the U-bend?
Are you damp, are you soggy, Moaning Myrtle
In your cold and lonely, lovely porcelain?

 - CMC






From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Feb 18 22:13:17 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:13:17 -0000
Subject: Latin in spell words
In-Reply-To: <96opjs+67r1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96phdt+c5rn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12576

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> It's been a long time since I took Latin, but a lot of JKR's 
> incantations don't look quite correct.  Perhaps that's 
intentional.  

You're right here. 

They aren't correct LATIN, no, and some of them aren't Latin at all 
(e.g. serpensortia, alohomora). She borrows Latin words for her 
incantations but she freely changes endings and mixes non-Latin roots 
right in there with the Latin ones. There are no Latin words that 
start with W for example, yet Wingardium is a spell word. The ending 
is clearly intended to look like Latin, but the word "wing" certainly 
isn't a Latin word.


> 
> "expelliarmus" - "armus" = "shoulder" (vulgate and neo-Latin); 
> weapons would be "armamentum"

Yes, it does mean shoulder, but that meaning contributes to it's 
meaning of weapon. My Latin dictionary lists "arma -orum" for weapon. 
JKR just got a bit creative with the endings again.

The following is snipped (by permission) from The Harry Potter 
Lexicon's Encyclopedia of Spells, Charms, and Incantations:

Expelliarmus (ex-pel-ee-AR-mus) 
"Disarming Spell" 
"expelo" L. to drive out + "arma" L. weapon 
Causes opponent's weapon to fly out of their hand. 
Basic defensive spell, taught at the Dueling Club (CS10) used 
frequently thereafter. If the exact nature of the opponent's weapon 
is uncertain, the spell can have unexpected results. If several 
people cast the spell simultaneously, the target may be rendered 
unconscious (PA, GF31, 34) 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
with the most complete HP spell resources on the planet (and beyond)
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Feb 18 22:30:25 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:30:25 -0000
Subject: Latin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102181318050.14461-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <96pie1+8s2f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12577

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at e...> wrote:

> 
> In the last group are the completely non-Latin, either because of 
form
> or root: alohomora, aparecium, avada kedavra, dissenium, engorgio,
> ennervate, expelliarmus, furnunculus, lumos, obliviate, peskipiksi
> persternomi, petrificus totalus, relashio, tarantallegra, waddiwasi,
> wingardium leviosa.

Ah, but almost all of these have Latin roots. Some aren't obvious and 
some are mixed up with non-Latin words too. 

Here's an example: Alohomora is a tricky one because of the "aloho-" 
part, but "mora" means obstacle. Furnunculus comes from the Latin 
root for furnace or oven, a meaning that is carried over in many 
romance languages (including Portuges) to mean a sore or boil. 
Ennervate comes from the Latin root "en-" which means to give or 
enable, added to the word "nervus" which gained the meaning of action 
or courage in the 1500's.

And "peskipiksi pesternomi" isn't a real spell. It means "pesky 
pixie, pester no me." Lockhart is faking it and not doing a very good 
job of it. 

I will have to check out that web site you mentioned, but if you 
would like more information on the root words of these spells, check 
out the Lexicon's Encyclopedia of Spells. Just about every spell JKR 
uses has recognizable roots to it, even if the endings 
aren't "correct."

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From miredinthemarrow at email.com  Sun Feb 18 22:41:18 2001
From: miredinthemarrow at email.com (Shanna Seanachai)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:41:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Casting - Lily - Cate Blanchett
Message-ID: <383117287.982536078935.JavaMail.root@web575-ec.mail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12578

>>>
Lily needs to appear in the Mirror of Erised, in the photos, and
potentially at the beginning.

How about Cate Blanchett, who played Elizabeth I?? She certainly is
striking!>>>

I agree that Cate would make a beautiful Lily. But isn't the filming mostly
over? Since she's a bit part maybe there is a chance that if they cast her,
they'd do her late. But if not, I doubt she would have had the time in the
past year. She did The Gift as well as another movie (whose name escapes me
at the moment) and Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings (dissolves into
giggles - sorry - happy Tolkienite here - the name Cate Blanchett is now
synonimous with Galadriel in my head). Still, she would top my list as
potential Lilys.

Does anyone know about that awful rumor that James was going to be played by
some British pop star (not British, therefore cannot remember name, sorry).
Apparently they are physically similar or something. Eh. Dunno.

By the way, I'm Shanna, and I'm new. ^_^ Some of you may know me from FF.N
or various mailing lists (mostly slash, but I'm also on Gypsy's and Syrena's
lists).

shanna seanachai
envy.nu/snape - snapeslash


-----------------------------------------------
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com





From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 22:41:45 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:41:45 -0000
Subject: Casting Kenneth Branagh
In-Reply-To: <96mjdu+i78e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96pj39+t6op@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12579

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> > The talk of English actors managing American accents brought to my 
> mind one 
> > of the best examples:  Kenneth Branagh in Dead Again.
> > 
> > And speaking of Branagh, I bet he could pull off the Lockhart role 
> quite well.
> > 
> 
> Weird. I was just thinking of Branagh and trying to find him a role. 
> I agree he could easily pull off Lockhart (although he's not pretty 
> enough. Ummm.. well, he's not pretty at all, really, is he?). 
> However, for some reason I see him as Cornelius Fudge. Don't know 
> why, exactly. Anyway, he's a great actor and could pull off 
> practically any role he takes. 

I have a role I clearly want for Branagh: Remus Lupin. He looks like I 
picture Lupin, and I can see him as a mentor/teacher/sensitive person. 
 I don't see him for Lockart at all, I see Cary Elwes for that.




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sun Feb 18 22:51:40 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:51:40 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting Kenneth Branagh
References: <96pj39+t6op@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c099fd$649c14a0$344a063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12580

> I have a role I clearly want for Branagh: Remus Lupin. He looks like I
> picture Lupin, and I can see him as a mentor/teacher/sensitive person.
Yuck - I was watching him In Fortunes of War again the other day. How
much of a luvvie is he ? Noooooo ! Jeremy Irons or the like will do very
nicely thank you. Someone understated. As for Lily and James, we need to
see just how much page time they get in the next three books before
condemning them to the awful fate of some popular actor/actress who over
eggs the pudding.

Michelle




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Feb 19 00:29:51 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:29:51 -0800
Subject: Hogwarts vs. Plumfield (was: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:  Little Women and H/H)
In-Reply-To: <001701c099d4$808b4060$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
References: <96mfic+c8kf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010218160555.02acbbb0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12581

At 12:59 PM 2/18/01 -0500, Rebecca Boswell wrote:
>     I was reaaaaally dissappointed with the end of Little Women.   I was so
>angry with Jo that I stopped reading the book until it was assigned in
>Language Arts class. I couldn't stand the professor, and I always thought Jo
>would have married Laurie. And I can't stand Amy either...the little evil
>imp.  Grrrrr...

I *like* Professor Bhaer!  Sort of a German Muggle version of Dumbledore!
I think Jo was wise not to marry Laurie; they *wouldn't* have gotten along.
But I wish he could have found someone other than Amy, Dursley-incarnate.
(Her daughter Bess, the "Princess" -- "Veela" would be a more accurate
metaphor -- grates on me as well.)

While this has come up, let me talk about the parallels I see between Hogwarts
and Plumfield (the school Jo and the Professor run in _Little Men_):  I think
Nat is Harry, coming from an abusive upbringing to a place where he belongs
and makes friends.  Dan as a boy is Ron, the best friend, with a bit of a bad
temper.  When Dan grows up in _Jo's Boys_, he becomes very Sirius-like,
including being unjustly imprisoned for murder.  Nan is Hermione, as the
clever, studious one.  Daisy is Ginny, quiet, meek, and hopelessly in love 
with
Nat/Harry; Jack is Malfoy, laboring to keep life from being *entirely* idyllic
for everyone; and Tom is like Fred and George in one with a little of Neville
(as far as forgetfulness and an overwhelming grandmother) thrown in.

As I say, Professor Bhaer is "Dumbledore", mostly... However, I can't
help contrasting his behavior when Nat is accused of stealing money
(he immediately assumes Nat did it) and Dumbledore's when Harry is
thought to be responsible for the "Heir of Slytherin" attacks ("Innocent
until proven guilty, Severus.").  I think D. showed much more wisdom
on that occasion.

                                          -- Dave


PS: Anyone here who doesn't like the Professor might prefer the TV series of
_Little Men_, in which he is killed off and Jo gets romantically involved with
a "Sirius" type...




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Feb 19 00:23:43 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:23:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interim Ruling-- what in the sam hill is this?
References: <96paas+s2tg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A90678F.EF721E42@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12582

Suzanne - sorry I didn't respond but I didn't get any email from you
this week! (privately, let me know which address you used, ok?)
I did a post about this when the ruling came down - it's at Message No.
8419
Basically, the court DID dismiss her defamation claims with prejudice
(which means she can't refile them) and dismissed the misrepresentation
claims but allowed her to replead them as false designation of origin
claims (which is identical to trademark claims).
However, the court also said that as a matter of law, Stouffer alleged
that each of the marks, character names, and likenesses were published
in her literary works (and publication doesn't mean that someone ever
bought the stuff = it just means that she created the work in a
permanent form (under copyright law, this email I am sending has
copyright protection - Stouffer's works have the same level of
protection as this email); that consumers have falsely associated her
works with Scholastic's works (all she had to do was say that customers
have - she didn't ahve to give ANY evidence that they did); and that she
has suffered irreparable harm and damages (again, no evidence
necessary).  NONE of this means that she proved them or has any evidence
to support her case. All it means is, she said "this is this, and that
is that."

rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote:

>
> I emailed Heidi about this but haven't heard from her yet.
>
> I am a little perturbed that the judge did not simply dismiss this
> nonsense. Those of you who are lawyers in this forum: what do you make
>
> of this thing? Maybe my legalese is not up to snuff.
>
> Meanwhile on my end: I have failed utterly in my attempts to find any
> existing copy of any of Stouffer's texts. Usually I am the kind of
> person who can find anything, anywhere. *Shrug* Makes me wonder if
> they exist at all frankly.

The only place I could think to find them would be at the copyright
office in washington, in the library of congress complex.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Feb 19 02:05:50 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:05:50 -0000
Subject: Latin in spell words
In-Reply-To: <96phdt+c5rn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96pv1u+50e4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12583

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> > It's been a long time since I took Latin, but a lot of JKR's 
> > incantations don't look quite correct.  Perhaps that's 
> intentional.  
> 
> You're right here. 
> 
> They aren't correct LATIN, no, and some of them aren't Latin at all 
> (e.g. serpensortia, alohomora). She borrows Latin words for her 
> incantations but she freely changes endings and mixes non-Latin 
roots 
> right in there with the Latin ones. There are no Latin words that 
> start with W for example, yet Wingardium is a spell word. 

Of course, one could argue that in JKR's alternate universe, Latin is 
a living thriving tongue unlike the frozen language it became amongst 
us Muggles ("cum mortua in lingua mortis"  - with the dead in a dead 
language), and as with any living language, new coinages and 
expressions arise continouously.

   - CMC




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb 19 02:26:03 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:26:03 -0000
Subject: The Mirror of Erised...
In-Reply-To: <004d01c099b3$076921a0$9214a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <96q07r+ta19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12584

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:

> I think Hermione sees herself with her hair pulled back in a bun
> and square spectacles on her nose, teaching Transfiguration Class. 

I think Hermione's scholarly ambitions rise higher than being the 
Transfiguration teacher.  She might see herself winning the Nobel 
Prize in Transsfiguration, or inventing a spell that wizarding 
researchers had been trying to invent for centuries, or running loose 
in a library with every wizarding book ever written, even the ones 
that have been lost to time, something like that.

Or the dearest wish of her heart might be something other than her 
scholarly ambitions. Someone suggested seeing a successful result of 
her campaign for House Elf rights (will she follow it with a campaign 
for Werewolf Rights?).

But, you know, for that she's a strong and independent female 
character, she is still enough like us imperfect girls to delight in 
shrinking her teeth (permanently) and sleeking her hair and looking 
gorgeous (for the ball), and it's not impossible that the dearest 
desire of her heart is represented by the image of her and whoever 
it is that she's in love with in a passionate kiss, other act of 
passion, or looking very beautifully at their dress-up wedding.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 03:16:24 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:16:24 -0000
Subject: Magical Maps...(was Re: Into the Chamber...)
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEIPDDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <96q368+h7p7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12585

Simon wrote:
"I think there is a fairly simple answer to this. The writing is 
found on the wall, which says 'Her skeleton will lie in the
chamber forever'.
"So they narrow it down to being a female student that is missing. The
writing is found during a lesson so it is easy enough to work out who 
is missing from each lesson, as each teacher can do a role call of 
who should be present in his or her lesson.
"They then find the females on this list and work out which are 
unaccounted for and get left with Ginny as being the only one missing 
and with no explanation for why she is not in lesson."

Ok I agree but I still say that it had to take 'awhile' if there are 
indeed 1,000 students in the school. (Oh dear. I'm afraid this may be 
turning into a number of students debate.)

Anyway Steph said that there might have been a clock like that of the 
Weasely's. Another possibility is that there might be a type of Map. 
You know, one like the mauruaders map. After all I can't see that 
the  mauruaders were the first people in a 1,000 years to come up 
with such a thing. 

Hmmm perhaps Dumbledore has one. Something he as headmaster has 
'inherited', like the sorting hat etc. Is there evidence in the canon 
that contradicts this? I seem to remember that Dumbledore didn't know 
about the map. I'm not sure however that it meant he didn't know 
about the map in general or about THAT map. I shall try to go look it 
up but maybe someone wants to jump in...

Scott 




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Feb 19 03:42:53 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:42:53 -0000
Subject: Interim Ruling-- what in the sam hill is this?
In-Reply-To: <96paas+s2tg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96q4nt+gukf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12586

Stouffer's web site says that you can "reserve" a copy RatM now.  
They don't specify when they will ship.  Price is $19.95 + S&H from 
Thurman House, LLC.  I'm not willing to spend my money on a copy, nor 
do I care to make a contribution to her cause.  Maybe some moneybags 
on the group will order one and report on it.

Stoffer's Web Site:
http://www.realmuggles.com/

-Jim


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> I have failed utterly in my attempts to find any 
> existing copy of any of Stouffer's texts. Usually I am the kind of 
> person who can find anything, anywhere. *Shrug* Makes me wonder if 
> they exist at all frankly. 





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 03:51:03 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:51:03 -0000
Subject: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
Message-ID: <96q577+js6d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12587

At the Yule Ball Harry notices that Dumbledore orders Pork Chops from 
the menu by saying 'Pork Chops' and then they appear.  We know that 
Harry does the same, though we never find out what he's having. 

This is the first time we've ever seen students at Hogwarts decide 
what type of food they'd like. It got me to thinking about the 
students who aren't that keen on black pudding and Haggis, or for 
that matter anything. 

Ron simply didn't try Boullubaise in GoF, but there was plenty of 
other things for him to eat. What about the vegitarians? Do they get 
special meals?  Jewish students who keep kosher?  People who might 
have food allergys (or do these not occur in the Wizarding world) or 
other medical conditions that would prevent them from eating certain 
foods.

Maybe House Elves are alerted to this ahead of time, and so they know 
which foods to fix. 

Scott
(Who guiltily admits that, other than the ongoing shipping thread he 
hasn't enjoyed any discussion as much as that Christmas dinner one we 
had in December.)





From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Feb 19 03:58:53 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:58:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
References: <96q577+js6d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a401c09a28$46ebc600$2c14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12588




  At the Yule Ball Harry notices that Dumbledore orders Pork Chops from 
  the menu by saying 'Pork Chops' and then they appear.  We know that 
  Harry does the same, though we never find out what he's having. 

  This is the first time we've ever seen students at Hogwarts decide 
  what type of food they'd like. It got me to thinking about the 
  students who aren't that keen on black pudding and Haggis, or for 
  that matter anything. 

  Ron simply didn't try Boullubaise in GoF, but there was plenty of 
  other things for him to eat. What about the vegitarians? Do they get 
  special meals?  Jewish students who keep kosher?  People who might 
  have food allergys (or do these not occur in the Wizarding world) or 
  other medical conditions that would prevent them from eating certain 
  foods.

  Maybe House Elves are alerted to this ahead of time, and so they know 
  which foods to fix. 

  Scott

  I was wondering about the arrangement of the dining table in the kitchens below, which was exactly like the tables in the Great Hall, above ... are the plates which are filled by the HE placed on this table and then somehow transported to the table above? How do they know who is sitting where? Maybe it is a magic glass ceiling type of thing?

  Doreen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jferer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 04:11:55 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:11:55 -0000
Subject: Interim Ruling-- what in the sam hill is this?
In-Reply-To: <96q4nt+gukf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96q6eb+eo8m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12589

Jim Flanagan:"Stouffer's web site says that you can "reserve" a copy 
RatM now. They don't specify when they will ship.  Price is $19.95"

$19.95? You gotta hand it to the lady, she's got nerve.  Ms. 
Stouffer's books, in their original, ah, "distribution," were sold in 
some Rite-Aid drugstores and grocery stores in the Northeast U.S.  She 
has alleged that JKR saw them there while on a trip to the US, a trip 
Scholastic denies ever took place. (the fact Rite-Aid is on the verge 
of going bankrupt is perhaps another commentary on their choice of 
merchandise to carry.)

Maybe we should all chip in on a club copy, 'cuz I'll be dipped if 
I'll put out $19.95 for this thing, even if I ever do receive it. 
Judging by the art on Ms. Stouffer's site, the Caldecott Medal isn't 
going to be on Ms. Stouffer's mantelpiece soon.

Heidi explained the problem: everybody gets their day in court.  You 
don't have to have a case, you don't have to have merit, all you need 
is a lawyer and $170 for an index number at the clerk's office (at 
least in New York that's the fee). 




From xine48 at ync.net  Mon Feb 19 05:05:08 2001
From: xine48 at ync.net (christine olson)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:05:08 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
In-Reply-To: <96q577+js6d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010218230354.00a9e6d0@pop31.ync.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12590

At 03:51 AM 2/19/01 +0000, you wrote:
>At the Yule Ball Harry notices that Dumbledore orders Pork Chops from
>the menu by saying 'Pork Chops' and then they appear.  We know that
>Harry does the same, though we never find out what he's having.


Hate to be anal, but Harry had goulash, p363 Br.

christine





From recla at magick.net  Mon Feb 19 05:16:48 2001
From: recla at magick.net (Dennis Recla)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:16:48 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010218230354.00a9e6d0@pop31.ync.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHIEFIDBAA.recla@magick.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12591

What always surprises me, is that everyone seems to be having 3rd and 4th
helpings of everything..  They sure must be low fat/calorie food, or some
really small servings.



-----Original Message-----
From: christine olson [mailto:xine48 at ync.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 9:05 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.


At 03:51 AM 2/19/01 +0000, you wrote:
>At the Yule Ball Harry notices that Dumbledore orders Pork Chops from
>the menu by saying 'Pork Chops' and then they appear.  We know that
>Harry does the same, though we never find out what he's having.


Hate to be anal, but Harry had goulash, p363 Br.

christine




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From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 05:41:01 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:41:01 -0000
Subject: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
In-Reply-To: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHIEFIDBAA.recla@magick.net>
Message-ID: <96qbld+o48k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12592

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dennis Recla" <recla at m...> wrote:
> What always surprises me, is that everyone seems to be having 3rd 
and 4th
> helpings of everything..  They sure must be low fat/calorie food, 
or some
> really small servings.
> 
> 


Also, you have to wonder at the fact that the food is actually good. 
Institutional food in the real world is normally horrid. Also, it 
seems like anyone can go down to the kitchen and get food on their 
own. Does Hogwarts have PE/flying all seven years? 

Charmian

Cool link of the day:  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html
A bestiary of net forum types. 




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 19 06:18:51 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:18:51 -0000
Subject: Reading Order; Taking a Hiatus
Message-ID: <96qdsb+o4so@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12593

Hello, everyone--

Two quick things:

1)  In chat (which I couldn't stay for most of), I mentioned that the 
first HP book I read was CoS.  After that, I read SS and PoA in a 
weekend, then GoF later.  When I re-read the whole shebang, I tend to 
read SS-PoA-GoF and read CoS last.  Keith also mentioned that he read 
CoS first.  Just wondering if anyone else read canon "out of 
order"... I do this for the Narnia Chronicles, but for a different 
reason.

2)  I've been putting this off for a while, avoiding it like the 
plague, kicking and screaming about it, but... 

It's time to put myself on another fandom diet (meaning HP4GU and the 
other lists, chats, etc.).  I'm heading back to work and grad classes 
today after being on medical leave for three weeks.  An avalanche 
awaits.  It seems that I've neglected real life for far too long in 
order to feed my obsession, and now must pay.

I've put all of my HP lists on WebView (save Paradise--and I must 
lurk even there), and will check back as time permits.  If you need 
to contact me, please e-mail me offlist because chances are I'll miss 
your message.  I intend to return to "active" (read:  loud and 
obnoxious) status when I catch up in my classroom and at the 
university.  I'm afraid that won't be until sometime in mid-March, no 
later than the end of March.

(I have a few items of unfinished business, such as getting out a 
club newsletter template, typing for some folks, beta-reading, etc.  
If I've promised you I'll do something HP-related for you--know that 
I *will* squeeze it in.  And of course, I'm not turning off 
AuthorAlert at ff.net.  This isn't one of those "cold turkey" 
deals.  ;-)).  

As I've had no cable during my time off work due to construction, 
thanks to all for being such great entertainment.  You guys were much 
better than TV!

All the best,

Ebony AKA AngieJ

(P.S.  H/H shipmates!  Hold down the fort.  And hugs to all of those 
on other watercraft and landlubbers as well... ;-))




From whimzical at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 06:34:38 2001
From: whimzical at yahoo.com (Julie Smith)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:34:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lack of human affection in books
Message-ID: <20010219063438.28686.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12594

 I've found it interesting how little affection/
emotion/intimacy is in the books. I wonder why this
is? Is it because the books are British, and let's
face it, British people are much more stoicle about
their feelings, or just that many of the characters
are afraid of intimacy? 
 It's understandable in Harry's case, the Dursley's
probably touched him as little as possible and I bet
the first hug he ever got was from Mrs. Weasley in GF.
I feel so sorry for poor Harry, I want to reach out
and hug him myself!
 Sirius is sure reserved. He doesn't see Harry, his
godson, for almost a year and he is all buisness and
very nochalant when they do get together. Then when
Harry comes within an inch of his life against
Voldemort and is in serious pain you think Sirius
could muster a hug or a few reassuring words, but no.
 Proffesor Lupin is even worse, I think he has serious
intimacy issues. He was reluctant to get to close to
Harry (to coach him against the dementors) and then
when Harry needed emotional sopport after a session,
the best he could do was make a move to reach out and
grab his shoulder.
 I just bugs me how cold and guarded the magic world
seems and I wish they's open up more, especially since
Harry seems to need it so much.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Feb 19 08:07:11 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:07:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
References: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHIEFIDBAA.recla@magick.net>
Message-ID: <00ef01c09a4a$f7462280$2c14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12595


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dennis Recla 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 11:16 PM
  Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.


  What always surprises me, is that everyone seems to be having 3rd and 4th
  helpings of everything..  They sure must be low fat/calorie food, or some
  really small servings.


  They seem to eat that way at home too. Mrs. Weasley fussed over the state of Harry's socks and tried to force him to eat fourth helpings at every meal.

  Before they left to go shopping, they had a quick half a dozen bacon sandwiches each.

  Maybe they have an anti-cholesterol charm?

  Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 19 12:07:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:07:16 -0000
Subject: Population - ages - SHIP: Ron/Harry - new magical character
Message-ID: <96r29k+ndp2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12596

> Now for another argument I have not seen before. At the end of first 
year
> each house had around 400 points. This seems to be a very low total.

What if students lose half as many points as they gain?  Someone with 
too much time on his/her hands should figure out how many points Harry 
actually nets for his house.  He gets so many subtracted that if it 
weren't for Quidditch, he might be a liability!

But seriously, I think this is an ingenious argument!  First day of 
classes might be special, but a nice guy like Lupin can give out 100 
points in one class meeting.  The final totals must be in the 
thousands.

Re: ages and all these casting arguments, I take back something I 
wrote recently, about Lupin being maybe 40 at the outside in order to 
be perceived by Harry as young-looking.  I keep forgetting about the 
wizard lifespan.  If McGonagall looks middle-aged at 70, the Marauders 
might well be in their 50's by now and still look like youngish adults 
(30's, to us Muggles).

There have been a few posts lately saying Ron/Harry is a bewildering 
concept.

It's not my ship, but why bewildering?  Take a pair of best friends, 
add a dose of sexual tension such as emerges when people get older 
(and, in this case, when people who've thought they were hetero 
realize they're not), and fizzzzzz, you've got a romance.  A lot of 
best-friend-ships of whatever combination (mm, ff, mf) turn into ships 
just this way in real life, no?

Maybe people are reacting to the unbearable fluffiness of some fanfic 
R/Ha pairings?

Star wrote:

> I still doubt Petunia developing skills but it's still a 
possibility. 

I go with Dudley as the one who will surprisingly develop magical 
skills.  I just want to see the look on Vernon and Petunia's faces.

He'd need a lot of character rehabilitation before he could be 
entrusted with magic, though.  Send him to Boris the Bewildered's 
Center for Nasty Little Wizards.

::evil laugh::
Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------
Many people said he hadn't noticed he was dead.
         --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 19 12:10:57 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:10:57 -0000
Subject: Magical talent (was special ed)
In-Reply-To: <20010217181053.6575.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96r2gh+cag6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12597

Teek wrote:

> As far as I can tell, most of the classes do not require any innate
>magical talent. Care of Magical Creatures, Astrology, Ancient Runes,
>Herbology, Potions, Arithmancy, Quidditch, if that is a class, and
>some parts of divination (tea leaves, probably not crystal balls) are
>not magical in nature.

I bet almost all of these have magical components.

CMC: do Hippogriffs bow to Muggles?  I doubt it
Astrology (I think you mean Astronomy):  maybe Muggles can do it just 
as well; we don't see enough of it to know what, if anything, wizards 
do that Muggle astronomers don't
Ancient Runes: may just be language study, but probably also includes 
spells, seeing invisible carving, etc.
Herbology: as with CMC, requires a hold over the creatures that 
Muggles couldn't have
Potions: intention (and in some cases an incantation--e.g. in Flesh, 
Blood and Bone) is part of the task, as with Charms--it's not just a 
matter of mixing ingredients.  Plus, advanced Potions students 
probably have to get the ingredients themselves--unicorn horn and all 
that
Arithmancy:  ?? don't know what it is
Quidditch: you have to be able to fly (again, just having a magical 
broomstick is not enough--I doubt any of us could get on a Firebolt 
and make it go)
Tea leaves:  some have the Inner Eye, some just see lumps of wet 
stuff...<g> again, there's more to it than looking up shapes in 
"Unfogging the Future"

Wishing it were otherwise so I could enroll at Hogwarts,
Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------
   "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!"
said Fred indignantly.
   "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying
git," said George.  "Isn't he, Harry?"
   "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly.
                 --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------------




From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com  Mon Feb 19 12:06:57 2001
From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:06:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
Message-ID: <20010219.060658.-485535.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12598

>   What always surprises me, is that everyone seems to be having 3rd 
> and 4th
>   helpings of everything..  They sure must be low fat/calorie food, 
> or some
>   really small servings.
> 
> 
>   They seem to eat that way at home too. Mrs. Weasley fussed over 
> the state of Harry's socks and tried to force him to eat fourth 
> helpings at every meal.
> 
>   Before they left to go shopping, they had a quick half a dozen 
> bacon sandwiches each.
> 
>   Maybe they have an anti-cholesterol charm?
> 
>   Doreen
> 
	Well, at Hogwarts at least, we do know how far they have to go in
between classes, so maybe all that running around, and up and down stairs
helps them to work off all the good food.

Sara
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Proud of my 104% Harry Potter Obsession Rating

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Mon Feb 19 13:03:18 2001
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (rhodhry at yahoo.no)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:03:18 -0000
Subject: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
In-Reply-To: <00a401c09a28$46ebc600$2c14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <96r5im+dq4s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12599

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> I was wondering about the arrangement of the dining table in the 
> kitchens below, which was exactly like the tables in the Great 
> Hall, above ... are the plates which are filled by the HE placed on 
> this table and then somehow transported to the table above? How do 
> they know who is sitting where? Maybe it is a magic glass ceiling 
> type of thing?
> 
>   Doreen

I rather suspect that at most meals, dinner is served on serving-
platters, from which the students help themselves.  It would make 
things easier on the house-elves.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Feb 19 13:27:14 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:27:14 -0600
Subject: MoM Court System
References: <96b81v+f50g@eGroups.com> <3A895381.367E9C6A@swbell.net> <2nti8t8bb1m48pck8qupmfc98dmnihjsr6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3A911F32.AA5228EC@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12600

Hi --

Bear with me everyone, I'm cleaning out emails from last week (and
before!) that I wanted to respond to!  :--)

Monika Huebner wrote:

> I said: >My feeling was that the courtroom was in this "dungeon" area
> of the MoM.  They aren't just taking statements as part of an
> investigation.
> >Bagman and Crouch Jr. were clearly "on trial" so to speak.
>
> Monika responded: You are the professional, so I have to believe you
> here. But to me it didn't quite look right to be a trial.

Well, I'm no trial lawyer by any means, but ....

Harry says that the Bagman "trial" is a "different trial" (see pg 591 --
Ch 30 -- GoF, US).

Pg 592 sounds more like a Council of Magical Law decision (no jury), but
there was a jury vote on pg 593 in the Bagman matter.

Crouch Sr. proclaims that the dungeon is a "court" (pg 594)

There was a jury vote again in the Crouch Jr. trial (pg 595)

Sirius also refers to the Crouch Jr. matter as a trial (Ch 27 -- pg 528
-- US edition)

So, all in all, I do have the impression that there is a Wizarding Govt
justice system, although it is clearly flawed in times of crisis.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 19 13:26:37 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:26:37 -0000
Subject: The Mirror of Erised...
In-Reply-To: <96naei+umg5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96r6ud+5i95@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12601

Scott, great post.  Thanks for sharing.  I like the thought that the 
images are more metaphorical than literal--which Dumbledore suggests 
in the way he interprets Harry's, and especially Ron's, visions.  
I.e., Ron doesn't necessarily want to be Head Boy and Cup-winning 
Quidditch captain, nor does he want his family to disappear, but he 
wants to stand out and be the best at something.  Harry doesn't 
necessarily want to be at a family reunion; he wants to know his 
parents and to stop being so alone in the world.

So whatever one sees in the Mirror might require some interpretation 
in order to really give insight into who you are and what you dream 
for yourself.  If Hermione sees herself as Minister of Magic, 
dispensing justice to the house-elves, it might not mean she literally 
wants to be MOM, but that she wants to have the power to right the 
wrongs she perceives.

This would make a great "children's time" in my church--we have a 
children's story or conversation with the kids in each service--I 
could ask the kids (90% of whom have read SS) what they would see in 
the Mirror and how it might change their lives to see it.  (Hmmm...can 
I call the hours spent on HPforGU work time now?)

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------
"I thought it sounded a bit like Percy 
singing.  Maybe you've got to attack him 
while he's in the shower, Harry."
            --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Feb 19 13:40:32 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:40:32 -0600
Subject: Astrology & Birth Dates
References: <96hjar+2hio@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A912250.403A2F63@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12602

Hi --

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> Reading the astrology posts, it occured to me that JKR probably
> doesn't believe at all in astrology (just an impression based on
> her interviews). And then I realized that of all the subjects taught
> in Hogwarts only Divination impresses us as dubious and even
> ridiculous.

I think she probably doesn't put much stock in astrology & does seem to
be ridiculing fortune-tellers, astrologists, etc. with her depiction of
Trelawney and the subject of Divination.

The other reason that she must not be an adherent of astrology is that
she never would have made Hermione a Sept 19th birthday if she did.
<g>  I enjoyed Elizabeth's posts of the charts of Harry & Hermione since
we know their birthdates (and are reasonably certain about birthyears).
Knowing birth times might make some difference but still .... it struck
me that the individual character portraits of both Harry and Hermione
were quite off from what we know about the characters.  Hermione's
birthday should be August 1st or July 30th -- her character is based so
heavily on JKR herself and JKR gave Harry her own birthday of July 31st.

I did enjoy the relationship astrology chart for H & H though --
intensity!!!  :--)

As for Ron -- I had pictured him a bit as a Taurus before (stubbornness,
combined with the fact that my first love was a red-headed Taurus boy).
Now, I think I might lean more toward Gemini.  It would explain why we
don't see Ron's birthday (well, other than GoF -- which ends after 6/24
inexplicably).  But, the first 3 books seem to end around June 12th or
so -- leaving over a week after term ends for Ron to have a Gemini
birthday.  He has a fair number of Gemini traits as well it seems to me.

Draco -- I could go with Scorpio (I'm a Scorpio myself), but I somehow
lean a bit Gemini with him too mainly because my husband (who I now
jokingly refer to as "Draco" (reformed Draco with none of canon Draco's
evil mean-spiritedness that is!) is a Gemini.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Feb 19 13:45:00 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:45:00 -0600
Subject: Hermione's birthdate
References: <96k1bb+7tgr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A91235C.58361D36@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12603

Hi --

absinthe at mad.scientist.com wrote:

> The books so far haven't revealed Draco's birthday or Ron's or even
> Hermione's for that matter. Clarification on the Hermione birthday:
> PoA gives the impression that her birthday is in September, but it
> does not give a specific day.

PoA does more than imply her birthday is in September; Hermione says
"It's my birthday in September ...."

JKR has said in a chat that her birthdate is September 19th.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Feb 19 13:48:44 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:48:44 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Re: Little Women
References: <F85bjKoMFYsDSzhxRz300000906@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A91243C.865399B8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12604

Hi --

Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote:

> Cassie wrote:
> >I don't think this necessarily means that I don't like Ron, which is
> >an accusation often leveled at us H/H types...I like him okay. I just
>
> >don't like him with Hermione. However, if the books do tend that way,
>
> >I will survive. After all, Little Women is still one of my favorite
> >childhood books, even though I have never forgiven Louisa May Alcott
> >for what she did to Jo and Laurie -- a horrendous mistake IMHO. <g>
> >
>
> Cassie is the third H/H-type that I've seen make this comment re: LMA
> within the past two days.  I'd be interested to see what R/Hers
> thought of the ending of *Little Women*.

I too *hated* that Jo didn't end up with Laurie!!  Hated it!  I haven't
been able to re-read Little Women or any of the other Alcott books as a
result.  Not only is the Amy/Laurie pairing despicable, but the fact
that she stuck Jo with the Professor!  Nope -- this H/H shipper has
never forgiven Alcott for that either.  <g>

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Feb 19 14:13:12 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:13:12 -0000
Subject: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
In-Reply-To: <00ef01c09a4a$f7462280$2c14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <96r9lo+101ho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12605

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:

> 
>   What always surprises me, is that everyone seems to be having 3rd 
and 4th
>   helpings of everything..  They sure must be low fat/calorie food, 
or some
>   really small servings.

This is true. Of course, when's the last time you watched a bunch of 
teenage boys eat? This isn't really so far out of line. 

But it also fits with a general use of exaggeration in the books. 
There are many, many examples of this. If you read carefully, you'll 
see that in Harry's reality people jump a foot off the ground when 
they're surprised, they fall from amazing heights and suffer no more 
ill effects than muddy clothes or a broken wrist, the rooms in the 
castle are big enough to hold an entire suburban house, things like 
that. It's part of JKR's writing style and it's part of what gives 
the books their flavor. 

Now shall we talk about how many students in green Harry sees at the 
Quidditch match with Slytherin? How many seconds Snape's robe is on 
fire before he notices it? I could go on and on. And frequently do ;)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which contains no exaggeration at all, hardly
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 14:15:50 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:15:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interim Ruling/club copy of book
In-Reply-To: <96q6eb+eo8m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010219141550.13098.qmail@web214.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12606


--- Jim Ferer <jferer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jim Flanagan:"Stouffer's web site says that you can
> "reserve" a copy 
> RatM now. They don't specify when they will ship. 
> Price is $19.95"
> 
> $19.95? You gotta hand it to the lady, she's got
> nerve.  Ms. 
> Stouffer's books, in their original, ah,
> "distribution," were sold in 
> some Rite-Aid drugstores and grocery stores in the
> Northeast U.S.  She 
> has alleged that JKR saw them there while on a trip
> to the US, a trip 
> Scholastic denies ever took place. (the fact
> Rite-Aid is on the verge 
> of going bankrupt is perhaps another commentary on
> their choice of 
> merchandise to carry.)
> 
> Maybe we should all chip in on a club copy, 'cuz
> I'll be dipped if 
> I'll put out $19.95 for this thing, even if I ever
> do receive it. 
> Judging by the art on Ms. Stouffer's site, the
> Caldecott Medal isn't 
> going to be on Ms. Stouffer's mantelpiece soon.
> 
I actually like this idea of having a club copy. I'd
be willing to chip in a couple dollars. They'd be
Canadian dollars, therefore not worth much, but I
offer them anyway! 

You're right, the one thing the lady has is a lot of
nerve! It can't be a lot of talent, otherwise we'd be
here discussing her book. My that sounds nasty -I must
not be fully awake yet. Someone hand me a coffee>


> Heidi explained the problem: everybody gets their
> day in court.  You 
> don't have to have a case, you don't have to have
> merit, all you need 
> is a lawyer and $170 for an index number at the
> clerk's office (at 
> least in New York that's the fee). 
> 
Maybe this is her way of getting her 15 minutes of
fame, though a pricey way at that - all those lawyers
to pay. 

Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From rlpenar at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 14:20:51 2001
From: rlpenar at yahoo.com (rlpenar at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:20:51 -0000
Subject: Lack of human affection in books
In-Reply-To: <20010219063438.28686.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96ra43+tqqr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12607

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Julie Smith <whimzical at y...> wrote:
>  I've found it interesting how little affection/
> emotion/intimacy is in the books. I wonder why this
> is? <snip>

As a very touchy-feely type person, I have also noticed this. I mean, 
I hug friends when they come over to my house and when they leave. 
But perhaps this is part of the reason why when I did my character 
quiz (way back when) I came up as Hagrid. Hagrid seems to always be 
hugging Harry, embracing Harry, falling on Harry, etc. Hagrid is also 
just about the only person (other than perhaps Ginny?) who openly 
cries. Is this a giant trait???

Becky




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Feb 19 15:03:58 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:03:58 -0000
Subject: Interim Ruling/club copy of book
In-Reply-To: <20010219141550.13098.qmail@web214.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96rcku+tql8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12608

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Maybe we should all chip in on a club copy, 'cuz
> > I'll be dipped if 
> > I'll put out $19.95 for this thing, even if I ever
> > do receive it. 
> > Judging by the art on Ms. Stouffer's site, the
> > Caldecott Medal isn't 
> > going to be on Ms. Stouffer's mantelpiece soon.
> > 
> I actually like this idea of having a club copy. I'd
> be willing to chip in a couple dollars. They'd be
> Canadian dollars, therefore not worth much, but I
> offer them anyway! 

I like the idea of getting a club copy - the only problem I have with 
it is that she MAY be taking a list of hte copies ordered over her 
site and presenting it as "evidence" to Scholastic, et al, as to 
people who want her product/the market for her goods/the names of 
people who are confused between her work and JKR's books, etc. 
BUT if we do order a copy, we might want to send a letter to 
Scholastic's lawyers AND to her lawyers saying that we are purchasing 
it for reportage/commentary purchases, are not confused, and do not 
want to be considered as part ofthe market for her goods. Or 
something like that. 
Where should I send my dollar?


> 
> > Heidi explained the problem: everybody gets their
> > day in court.  You 
> > don't have to have a case, you don't have to have
> > merit, all you need 
> > is a lawyer and $170 for an index number at the
> > clerk's office (at 
> > least in New York that's the fee). 
> > 
> Maybe this is her way of getting her 15 minutes of
> fame, though a pricey way at that - all those lawyers
> to pay. 
She *MAY* have found someone to do it on contingency - which means 
that she only pays things like filing fees & duplicating costs UNLESS 
she wins a $$ figure.
 
> Sheryll
> 
> =====
> "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and 
taste good with ketchup."
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From editor at texas.net  Mon Feb 19 15:24:57 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:24:57 -0600
Subject: HP Artist in S.A.--results
Message-ID: <3A913AC9.18CEEA4F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12609

Well, I went to the Warner Brothers show last night and met Fred Bode.
Besides the fun inherent in getting away from the kids for an evening,
it was nice to chat with so many other HP fans. There were a handful of
folks with kids there, but mostly lots of adults milling.

We were told that he'd only sign stuff we got from the Gallery (prints,
plates, figures, etc.) as opposed to the stuff out on the shelves, but I
saw him signing a mug or two so I know he bent his own guidelines a bit.

When it was my turn, he signed the Harry ornament (the glass Kurt Adler
Polonnaise one, with Harry standing there with Hedwig on his shoulder)
in cool silver stuff, and he signed the postcard/invitation to the
event, too. I got to talk to him a little bit, which was fun because he
seems to be a very nice person (signed 20 postcards for one lady who was
not very pleasant, to boot, and we in line all bet she was going to try
to sell them--good luck). He's also kind of cute, and he noticed my name
on the invitation and identified himself as of Polish descent (looks
like it, come to think of it). Really nice guy.

Anyway, here's what I gleaned from my brush with greatness:

1. JKR pronounces Draco as "DRAY-co" (DRAY rhymes with "clay").

2. I asked him about the /t/ in Voldemort, and he said it's been a year
since he last talked to JKR, and she's British so it's kind of hard to
tell, but he thought the /t/ was silent. He sounded surprised that
anyone would pronounce it, so I bet in the movie it'll be silent. Caius,
I now pronounce your wonderful filk acceptable.

3. I transmitted the woeful gnashings and wailings of those who want
Draco art, and didn't get anything concrete in response; he said
something like, "It's out there," so perhaps he's done some Draco stuff
and it is the fault of the marketers, who choose what to put out as
full-color lithographs, etc.

4. I asked why Hermione had blue eyes (which she definitely does on the
corresponding Polonnaise ornament, at least), and he seemed to think
he'd gone strictly by the book. I overheard him talking to a person
ahead of me, and he was telling them that JKR had written such wonderful
detailed descriptions, that it made his job so easy! He really sounded
like he enjoyed what he does. Anyway, back to the eyes, I said I thought
in the books they were brown. Where was the reference? Because I got the
impression that he'd read the book, but he might only have read book 1,
maybe 2, and if her eye color is only mentioned later, he might just
have missed that bit.

5. I asked if the artwork was at all based on the movie-version
characters, since Robbie Coltrane all made up looks an awful lot like
Fred Bode's Hagrid, the Snape artwork looks a bit like Alan Rickman,
etc. He said his artwork was all approved well before they started on
the movie makeup, so it seems to me that any correspondences would be
the movie people paying attention (gasp!). He also said that he'd seen
some stills from the movie, and that we were all going to be blown away,
it was so cool.

6. I asked about the scar alignment, the whole horizontal/vertical
thing. He said that there had been some dissatisfaction on JKR's part
with the book covers depicting it as vertical (my own preference). It
sounded like something he'd discussed with her--he related that she told
him that in her mind's eye, when Voldemort attacked baby Harry, the baby
flinched away, turned his head a bit, and so the scar is diagonal.

This last was the most interesting tidbit I took from the evening, since
I hadn't heard anything like it before. As an artist myself (didn't say
*good* artist), this kind of detail is what a good artist *would* ask
about, which explains why he could recall this conversation. I don't
know if it qualifies for the Lexicon, but it's pretty close to the
horse's mouth.

Must go tend my own little one now. I think I remembered everything. Oh,
yeah, he said that they weren't filming CoS yet, to his knowledge.

--Amanda




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Feb 19 15:31:24 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:31:24 -0000
Subject: HP Artist in S.A.--results
In-Reply-To: <3A913AC9.18CEEA4F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96re8c+98c1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12610

Amanda - your report was one of the neatest things I've read! Is 
there any way to find out if he'll be doing these signings in any 
other cities?
I am concerned, though, that he now thinks that your "friends" are a 
bunch of draco-obsessives (cause, you know, only some of us are!) - 
but the bit about the scar really made my day!
I'm at work, so I don't have my PS/SS here, but in the book, isnt' it 
described as "somewhat like" a lightening bolt, which would support 
the "slightly sideways" thing, because if it was upright it would be 
just like a lightening bolt, right?

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> 6. I asked about the scar alignment, the whole horizontal/vertical
> thing. He said that there had been some dissatisfaction on JKR's 
part
> with the book covers depicting it as vertical (my own preference). 
It
> sounded like something he'd discussed with her--he related that she 
told
> him that in her mind's eye, when Voldemort attacked baby Harry, the 
baby
> flinched away, turned his head a bit, and so the scar is diagonal.
> 




From editor at texas.net  Mon Feb 19 15:37:46 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:37:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP Artist in S.A.--results
References: <96re8c+98c1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A913DC9.AC81ED07@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12611

heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu wrote:

> Amanda - your report was one of the neatest things I've read! Is there
> any way to find out if he'll be doing these signings in any other
> cities?

It was a Warner Brothers Store Gallery show, so I'd look on the WB site
(or go to the New Official HP site, where the store section has listings
of WB stores) and call a store. Ask for the Gallery, which sells the
expensive collector stuff like cels, and the Gallery manager should know
at least where to ask.

> I am concerned, though, that he now thinks that your "friends" are a
> bunch of draco-obsessives (cause, you know, only some of us are!) -

Naah. At least, naah about the Draco part. Considering I told him we'd
debated the pronunciaton of Draco's and Voldemort's names, that we
noticed things like eye color of figurines, that we'd debated the
alignment of the scar, etc., he's pretty clear on the "obsessive"
part--no way around that.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Feb 19 16:22:54 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:22:54 -0600
Subject: Gob Owling
Message-ID: <00d601c09a90$374dfd40$9014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12613

Maybe I am the only person who will see the humor in this. But here goes. I work at the Comet Bowling Alley. We have a big sign outside that we use to announce special events. 

After spending the weekend reading GoF and searching the other three books for this and that, and reading all of my HP list emails, I arrived at work to see the lettering on the sign read, "Have fun .. Gob owling"  My first reaction was a Harry Potter thought. Is a Gob an owling event? Is a Gob a great big group of owls? Having never gobbed an owl before, I asked my boss. Not a Potterite, he was not amused.

Having fun ... Gob owling in Iowa
Doreen




"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." 
Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Feb 19 16:46:21 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:46:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
References: <96r9lo+101ho@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c09a93$7e5762a0$2be8183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12614


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Vander Ark 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 9:13 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:

  > 
  >   What always surprises me, is that everyone seems to be having 3rd 
  and 4th
  >   helpings of everything..  They sure must be low fat/calorie food, 
  or some
  >   really small servings.

  >>This is true. Of course, when's the last time you watched a bunch of 
  >>teenage boys eat? This isn't really so far out of line. 

  >>But it also fits with a general use of exaggeration in the books. 
  >>There are many, many examples of this. 


  I also get the feeling that it's meant to contrast Hogwarts with the Dursleys.  At the Dursleys, Harry eats next to nothing.  At Hogwarts every meal is a feast.  At the Dursleys, Harry sleeps in a closet (at least at first).  At Hogwarts, he has a four-post bed in a luxuriously large room which is cleaned and tended by house-elves. At the Dursleys, Harry is mostly isolated.  At Hogwarts, he's surrounded by friends, most notably in Gryffindor's large, homey common room filled with "squashy armchairs."  Perhaps the meals are one of the many ways in which Rowling draws the heavy line between Harry's muggle life and his wizard life.



  >>How many seconds Snape's robe is on 
  fire before he notices it? I could go on and on. And >>frequently do ;)


  Oy! I had a dream last night that I was dating Snape...And i'm not even a Snape fan!

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Feb 19 16:47:37 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:47:37 -0000
Subject: Fifty Ways to Free Your House Elf (filk)
Message-ID: <96rin9+regl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12615

Fifty Ways to Free Your House Elf (from CoS, final chapter)

(To the Tune of 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover)

(The Scene: Before Hogwarts Castle. Deposed from the Board, his 
planting of Tom Riddle's diary on Ginny Weasley exposed, LUCIUS 
MALFOY is departing in a state of intense anger, kicking his house-
elf DOBBY every step of the way. HARRY ponders a possible 
intervention)

HARRY
Lucius set things up so that young Ginny'd take the fall
And now he's leaving in a rage, just hear poor Dobby squall
But I've now thought of how to bring some closure to it all
`Cause there's 50 ways to free a house elf
If I can trick this sleaze to free his house elf

(HARRY hands LUCIUS Riddle's diary, wrapped in an old sock, which 
LUCIUS throws aside in disgust)

HARRY (to LUCIUS)
Just give him your shoe, Lou, just hand him your hat, Matt
Just fling him a shirt, Kurt, and his chain you'll unlock
Just toss him your tie, guy, and to Dobby, say good-bye
Just throw him this sock, Doc, and he's off your time-clock

(DOBBY retrieves the sock, and in accordance with the laws of House 
Elf-Human relationships, is immediately set free.  An expression of 
joy and wonder crosses DOBBY'S face, as LUCIUS' anger is amplified 
ten-fold)

LUCIUS
Harry Potter, you have always been a meddling fool
You're exactly like your father James when he was at this school
But now you are about to find that I can be quite cruel
`Cause there are nifty ways to hex an upstart
Here are thrifty things I've learned in Dark Arts

.. 

(LUCIUS raises his wand menacingly. DOBBY knocks him flat on the 
ground with Elf magic)

DOBBY (to LUCIUS)
I'm no longer a slave, Dave; I'm now totally free, Lee
I no further am bound, hound, and that's why you're down prone
I have now reached the age, sage, so are we on the same page?
I'm out on my own, Sloan, so leave Harry alone! 

(Exit LUCIUS ? DOBBY embraces HARRY and vanishes)

  - CMC





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Feb 19 16:53:16 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:53:16 -0000
Subject: Napster, copyright, etc.
Message-ID: <96rj1s+nsbn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12616

Even though I'm not a moderator, I'm writing this message on behalf 
of the Moderating Team, since I have more experience with 
intellectual property law than the rest of them put together 
(DISCLAIMER - this isn't legal advice, and doesn't create an attorney-
client situation). 

The moderators have deleted the post this morning from a listie which 
gave information about finding certain works copyrighted by JKR on 
Napster and on a website. 

This was done because, as you may be aware, last week, the court of 
appeals for the 9th Circuit held that Napster is engaged in 
violations of copyright when it allows users to distribute music 
without a license to do so. The court said Napster was doing 
something called "contributory infringement" when it facilitated the 
passing of that information among users.

None of us wanted to get ourselves or Yahoogroups in the same kind of 
trouble, and the Moderator Team is concerned that the annoucement 
about the audio versions of JKR's copyrighted books constitutes 
contributory copyright infringement.

Because of this, they removed the post from the group's Archives, and 
ask that all listies avoid discussions of how to find the books on 
Napster or other "peer to peer" sites, or at any URL which contains 
substantially all of the text of the books, in any format.

Please don't consider this a "Howler" directed at ANYONE - we just 
wanted to let you know why the moderators took this action.

If you've joined the list in the past month, I also wanted to let you 
know that there are a lot of messages from early to mid January on 
this same issue - you might want to take a look at them. 

Have a great day!




From f95lean at dd.chalmers.se  Mon Feb 19 16:59:37 2001
From: f95lean at dd.chalmers.se (Lea)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:59:37 -0000
Subject: CoS Gilderoy Lockhart's books
In-Reply-To: <00b601c0991f$50e38da0$0e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <96rjdp+rvff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12617

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:

> In CoS-4, there is a list of the new books that Harry would need for >the coming year.
>
> Then, why does George say:
> "Dunno how Mum and Dad are going to afford all our school stuff this year," said George after a while. "Five sets of Lockhart books!"
> 
>Can someone clear this up for me. I tried a search through the >archives first, but it did not help. Sorry if I missed it.
> 

Right after reading his list Fred looks at Harry's and says: 
"You've been told to get all Lockhart's books too"

Lockhart is going to teach all the Hogwarts students and wants to use his books instead of the books they have used before (either beacause he gets money for them or because he thinks they are the best). 

// Lea





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 17:06:50 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:06:50 -0000
Subject: Interim Ruling/club copy of book
In-Reply-To: <96rcku+tql8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96rjra+93do@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12618

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:

> I like the idea of getting a club copy - the only problem I have 
with 
> it is that she MAY be taking a list of hte copies ordered over her 
> site and presenting it as "evidence" to Scholastic, et al, as to 
> people who want her product/the market for her goods/the names of 
> people who are confused between her work and JKR's books, etc. 
> BUT if we do order a copy, we might want to send a letter to 
> Scholastic's lawyers AND to her lawyers saying that we are 
purchasing 
> it for reportage/commentary purchases, are not confused, and do not 
> want to be considered as part ofthe market for her goods. Or 
> something like that. 
> Where should I send my dollar?


I am opposed to doing anything which might inadvertantly support her 
cause in any way. However, I do feel that for reportage purposes, it 
would be good to be able to actually look at her text. 

The literary critic in me wants to see the good and make the 
comparison and see for myself. (My already non-existant trust in 
Stouffer's integrity  plummets even deeper into the Irritable Bowel of 
Doubt when I notice that she appears determined to not allow people to 
do exactly that). 

The demoness in me wants to scan the whole thing and put it on the 
internet for ridicule, but I will restrain myself there.

My question:  My interpretation of "reserving" a copy was that the 
reprint is not printed yet but that Stouffer wants to take advanced 
orders. If it were actually published, I would assume that there would 
be some sort of record of it somewhere.

I think it might be wise to call Scholastic's legal department and ask 
them if they know of any reliable place to obtain a copy right now. I 
don't know if they know the answer to this question, but it would be a 
good opportunity to address Heidi's concern and figure out if there is 
a way to get the text WITHOUT supporting Stouffer's claims.

Thoughts?


Suzanne




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Feb 19 17:10:19 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:10:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
References: <96r9lo+101ho@eGroups.com> <000d01c09a93$7e5762a0$2be8183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <010601c09a96$d6f31280$9014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12619


    I also get the feeling that it's meant to contrast Hogwarts with the Dursleys.  


    ender

  I agree with that theory totally. I believe this is part of the appeal of JKR's younger fans. The books are an endless supply of, "So you think your life is bad? It could be worse. You could be living with the Dursleys." But tempered with a wonderful place like Hogwarts for young readers to escape to and dream about. Who, among the readers, young or old, has not identified their own teachers with at least one, if not several of the school teacher
  at Hogwarts? Bad as our own teachers were, they pale in comparison.
  Doreen the Corn Stalker (hee hee SVA)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 17:13:25 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:13:25 -0000
Subject: Interim Ruling
In-Reply-To: <96rcku+tql8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96rk7l+e269@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12620



Okay so here is how I read this:

Stouffer's claims about defamation, interference, and all that 
nonsense etc. are dismissed completely. GONE. Kills Bugs Dead.

Her charges of tradmark infringement however may be refiled so that 
she can have her day in court, but that in allowing her to do this the 
Judge is not necessarily showing her claims any favor. In other words, 
nobody is saying that she has proven anything, or that her claims are 
sound, only that her claims in this case exist and the procedure is to 
hear them out.

Is that correct? 

This would click with what a lawyer told me once-- he said that in 
cases like this even the most ridiculous ones will get their days in 
court because judges tend to be conservative about these matters. They 
would rather hear the case.

Heidi?


Thanks!


Suzanne


P.S. Uhmmmmm... so tell me, if Judge Heidi Tandy is presiding over the 
case of Sirius Black.... Uhmmmmm.... I would say things look bright 
for our hero? *wicked grin followed by a swoon*

P.P.S.  I just clicked on your address here in yahoo to write to you-- 
I can now be reach at rainy_lilac at yahoo.com.




From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Mon Feb 19 17:18:45 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:18:45 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lack of human affection in books
In-Reply-To: <96ra43+tqqr@eGroups.com>
References: <20010219063438.28686.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com> <96ra43+tqqr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <qbk29tg8mlki85g2slo5brqlahtu3gp184@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12621

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:20:51 -0000, rlpenar at yahoo.com wrote:

>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Julie Smith <whimzical at y...> wrote:
>>  I've found it interesting how little affection/
>> emotion/intimacy is in the books. I wonder why this
>> is? <snip>
>
>As a very touchy-feely type person, I have also noticed this. I mean, 
>I hug friends when they come over to my house and when they leave. 

Maybe there is a lack of "hugging" because there are so few female
characters? I think teenage boys generally don't like to show their
emotions too openly.

Remember the scene in the Shrieking Shack when Lupin hugged Sirius? I
think this was very touching, it was a spontaneous gesture from
Lupin's side to reassure Sirius and to prove him that he would do him
no harm. I have thought a lot about Sirius' lack of reaction, and I
think that he was just not able to process emotion at this time. Don't
forget that he had passed 13 years without any human contact at all,
terrified and psychologically tortured by dementors. It will take him
more than a few months to recover from this. When he tells Harry about
what happened in the night when James and Lily died, he is visibly
shaken though, and has tears in his eyes, a very emotional moment.

>Hagrid is also 
>just about the only person (other than perhaps Ginny?) who openly 
>cries. Is this a giant trait???

I don't think so. But since the Harryverse is mostly populated by
males, we won't see much open crying. 

Monika


--
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html

Current book: Peg Kerr: The Wild Swans



From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 17:34:29 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:34:29 -0000
Subject: Lack of human affection in books
In-Reply-To: <96ra43+tqqr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96rlf5+fh0m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12622

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rlpenar at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Julie Smith <whimzical at y...> wrote:
> >  I've found it interesting how little affection/
> > emotion/intimacy is in the books. I wonder why this
> > is? <snip>
> 
> As a very touchy-feely type person, I have also noticed this. I 
mean, 
> I hug friends when they come over to my house and when they leave. 
> But perhaps this is part of the reason why when I did my character 
> quiz (way back when) I came up as Hagrid. Hagrid seems to always be 
> hugging Harry, embracing Harry, falling on Harry, etc. Hagrid is 
also 
> just about the only person (other than perhaps Ginny?) who openly 
> cries. Is this a giant trait???
> 
> Becky

I noticed this, but attributed it to cultural and class differences. 
The British DO tend to be quite reserved, but that reserve in my 
experience varies. It does not necessarily mean a lack of warmth.

Americans are very, very demonstrative in general and a lot of 
cultures have a big problem with this. I lived in Turkey for a few 
years and discovered that greeting people with the wide American 
smile, direct eye contact, and a familiar address more often than not 
would be interpreted as superficiality rather than warmth. 
"Americans-- gad, they smile at everything." Although Turks are very 
warm, they did not like that. Manners and formality meant a lot to 
them. Getting to the point where you could feel free to hug or kiss 
someone who is not a blood relative was a rather big deal.

It might be that in the wizarding world things are more formal. Harry 
ceetainly needs warmth and support, but I  would not assume that that 
would need to come in the form of huggie-kissie-huggie. He appears to 
have developed close ties with many people-- Dumbledore means the 
world to him, as do his friends and Hagrid and the Weasleys. Sirius is 
the closest thing to a father that he has, but please remember that 
godfather or no, they haven't actually had a lot of contact with one 
another, and Sirius has plenty of his own issues going on. If Sirius 
gets down to business it may be because his most urgent wish is to 
protect and advise Harry. Also, I seem to rememeber at the end of Book 
IV, Sirius stays close to Harry and is visibly shaken by what has 
happened. He leaves only when he must.

Sounds like love to me!

Suzanne




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Mon Feb 19 17:44:15 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:44:15 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco - pronounciation (was  HP Artists in S.A- results)
References: <3A913AC9.18CEEA4F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00f601c09a9b$ad1f6c60$45c506d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12623

> 1. JKR pronounces Draco as "DRAY-co" (DRAY rhymes with "clay").

So finally we have an answer for it.

Though I remembered just yesterday that there is this warlord in X:WP that
is called Draco and pronounced exactly that way. Just don't ask me why I
never thought of that before...

Thanks for the report!

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross






From jferer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 18:15:01 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:15:01 -0000
Subject: Population - ages - SHIP: Ron/Harry - new magical character
In-Reply-To: <96r29k+ndp2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96rnr5+gqnc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12624

Amy:"Re: ages and all these casting arguments, I take back something I 
wrote recently, about Lupin being maybe 40 at the outside in order 
to be perceived by Harry as young-looking.  I keep forgetting about 
the wizard lifespan.  If McGonagall looks middle-aged at 70, the 
Marauders might well be in their 50's by now and still look like 
youngish adults (30's, to us Muggles)."

There are  some numbers to work with concerning the Marauders' ages. 
Harry is eleven when he comes to Hogwarts. His parents were killed ten 
years previously.  Lily and James were married (probably very soon) 
after they left Hogwarts, as Aunt Petunia resentfully informs Harry:

"Then she met that Potter at school and they left and got married and
had you, and of course I knew you'd be just the same, just as strange,
just as -- as -- abnormal -- and then, if you please, she went and got
herself blown up and we got landed with you!"

 ...and Aunt Petunia  and her sister were obviously 
contemporaries; Petunia wouldn't enjoy a wizard lifespan, so Lily and 
James didn't wait an inordinate amount of time to get married after 
leaving school). Dudley's the same age as Harry, after all. If Lily 
and James waited until they were 30 before having Harry - and that's a 
generous waiting period - then they would have been 40 at the time 
Harry entered Hogwarts. Their classmates would of course be about the 
same.






From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Feb 19 18:26:03 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:26:03 -0700
Subject: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
In-Reply-To: <000d01c09a93$7e5762a0$2be8183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEBODBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12625

There is excessive attention paid to food descriptions in the Harry Potter
books.  I've always figured it was because, at the time JKR was beginning to
plot and write the HP books, she was a "welfare mom" and probably struggling
to feed herself and her daughter.  When you're hungry, you think obsessively
about food, you SEE food everywhere... in shop windows, in print, on
television... When I'm "dieting" and go to bed a bit hungry, I have what I
call "grocery store dreams", in which I push my cart up and down the aisles
of the local grocery, filling it to the brim with cookies, snacks, candy,
and other munchies.  Fortunately, I always wake up before I have to pay for
it all...

Speaking of food at Hogwarts, in PS/SS Chapter 10 (Halloween), at the
evening's dinner (before the troll was discovered) it says "The feast
appeared suddenly on the golden plates, as it had at the start-of-term
banquet."  Which implies that the food does not appear suddenly the rest of
the time.  I wonder if the day-to-day meals have the food arriving in more
traditional ways, like a regular school cafeteria where you take your tray
and pile up the food from a special table or counter, then go sit down.
Before I noticed this sentence, I had assumed that it appeared magically at
each table 3 times a day, and the kids helped themselves while seated.

SML




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Feb 19 18:30:02 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:30:02 -0000
Subject: Lack of human affection in books
In-Reply-To: <20010219063438.28686.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96rona+9n5b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12626

I have to disagree that there is a significant lack of emotion and 
affection.  A number of examples of emotional display can be found in 
the HP books.  I think that HP stacks up reasonably well against 
Narnia, LOTR, and other popular fantasy and SF in this respect.  
Physical displays are not all that common in the world of young 
adolescents, particularly when they were mistreated at home as Harry 
was.

Digressing slightly from the topic at hand:  IMHO, a lot of fanfic 
has gone entirely overboard with emotional displays. Some of the, 
ahem, "less gifted" authors write some extremely unconvincing 
romantic scenes, particularly with respect to the male half of the 
interaction. I don't just mean from the viewpoint of beer-swilling, 
sexist louts, but even as viewed by reasonably sensitive guys like 
myself <g>. (end of digression)

I generally find that JKR's handling of emotions to be believable and 
balanced, though, as you say, she doesn't give physical displays of 
affection a lot of emphasis.  Here are a few examples of credible 
emotional displays (positive and negative) from the canon:

Hermione - crying and hiding in bathrooms before the Troll incident 
in PS because she felt left out by the other kids. Afterwards, there 
was a bond of friendship between the three that "feels" warm, even if 
it doesn't translate into hugs very often.

Ginny's early crush on Harry translates into shyness and blushing
(cute!)

Hagrid - crying when Norbert and Buckbeak were in trouble.

Harry - feeling gratified when he received pictures from his parents' 
frends

Fawlks - crying phoenix tears <g>

Moaning Myrtle - crying because she felt excluded and picked-on

Couples - schnuggling in the bushes during the "Prom"

Hagrid and Madame Maxime (implied schnuggling?)

Dudley - coddled affectionately by his parents

Fleur - emotionally overcome when Harry saves her sister (Didn't 
Percy act uncharacteristically emotional when Ron was saved, as well?)

Molly W - Hugging F&G when they returned from the World Cup unharmed

Mrs. Crouch - sobbing during the trial of her son; then taking his 
place as she was dying so that he could escape

Percy & Penelope - schnuggling (and more???) in disused classrooms

Hermione - giving Harry a kiss on the cheek at the end of GOF



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Julie Smith <whimzical at y...> wrote:
>  I've found it interesting how little affection/
> emotion/intimacy is in the books. I wonder why this
> is? Is it because the books are British, and let's
> face it, British people are much more stoicle about
> their feelings, or just that many of the characters
> are afraid of intimacy? 
>  It's understandable in Harry's case, the Dursley's
> probably touched him as little as possible and I bet
> the first hug he ever got was from Mrs. Weasley in GF.
> I feel so sorry for poor Harry, I want to reach out
> and hug him myself!
>  Sirius is sure reserved. He doesn't see Harry, his
> godson, for almost a year and he is all buisness and
> very nochalant when they do get together. Then when
> Harry comes within an inch of his life against
> Voldemort and is in serious pain you think Sirius
> could muster a hug or a few reassuring words, but no.
>  Proffesor Lupin is even worse, I think he has serious
> intimacy issues. He was reluctant to get to close to
> Harry (to coach him against the dementors) and then
> when Harry needed emotional sopport after a session,
> the best he could do was make a move to reach out and
> grab his shoulder.
>  I just bugs me how cold and guarded the magic world
> seems and I wish they's open up more, especially since
> Harry seems to need it so much.
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 19 18:38:49 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:38:49 -0000
Subject: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEBODBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <96rp7p+tc1g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12627

> Speaking of food at Hogwarts, in PS/SS Chapter 10 (Halloween), at 
the
> evening's dinner (before the troll was discovered) it says "The 
feast
> appeared suddenly on the golden plates, as it had at the 
start-of-term
> banquet."  Which implies that the food does not appear suddenly the 
rest of
> the time.  

In the food descriptions (you're right, there are a lot) JKR sometimes 
shows the trio helping themselves/each other from serving dishes.  I 
picture a family-style arrangement:  each table has serving dishes 
along it with various foods, people help themselves, as opposed to 
cafeteria-style.  The contrast at the abovementioned feasts is that 
the food appears magically on the individual plates, rather than in 
the serving bowls as it usually does.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------
Ron peered into Harry's teacup, his forehead
wrinkled with effort.  "There's a blob a bit
like a bowler hat," he said.  "Maybe you're 
going to work for the Ministry of Magic. . . ."
               -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Feb 19 19:09:09 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:09:09 -0600
Subject: ships MW/GL (where do ships go? are they OT?
Message-ID: <016501c09aa7$71139aa0$9014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12628

I think that poor, neglected, taken for granted,  Molly Weasley, whose husband is always rushing off to MOM errands and meetings...is vulnerable. When he is home, Arthur is always too busy tinkering with muggle artifacts to pay enough attention to her. (and weren't they heard arguing on more than one occasion?) 

Perhaps, at a book signing, Gilderoy Lockhart, for whatever reasons, (perhaps her gushing on & on about how wonderful his books are) ... becomes interested in Molly and they attend what starts off to be an innocent luncheon. (Even Molly's sons have noticed that "she fancies him," and when they confronted her about it, she blushed.

Doreen 

"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." 
Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Feb 19 19:19:21 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:19:21 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
References: <96rp7p+tc1g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017a01c09aa8$dd8d92c0$9014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12629


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 12:38 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.


  > Speaking of food at Hogwarts, in PS/SS Chapter 10 (Halloween), at 
  the
  > evening's dinner (before the troll was discovered) it says "The 
  feast
  > appeared suddenly on the golden plates, as it had at the 
  start-of-term
  > banquet."  Which implies that the food does not appear suddenly the 
  rest of
  > the time.  

  In the food descriptions (you're right, there are a lot) JKR sometimes 
  shows the trio helping themselves/each other from serving dishes.  I 
  picture a family-style arrangement:  each table has serving dishes 
  along it with various foods, people help themselves, as opposed to 
  cafeteria-style.  The contrast at the abovementioned feasts is that 
  the food appears magically on the individual plates, rather than in 
  the serving bowls as it usually does.

  Amy Z

  At the start-of-the-term banquet, it says, The dishes in front of him were now piled with food....Harry piled his plate with a bit of everything except the peppermints and began to eat. SS-7

  Maybe JKR is using the term, "plate" meaning dinner plate in some places and serving plate/platter in others?

  Doreen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Feb 19 19:55:14 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:55:14 -0000
Subject: Problems with the filming of the Movie
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEKDDDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12630

Hello all;


It seems that WB are having problems with the bad weather in the UK holding
up filming.


They have asked for an extension to the amount of time Daniel is allowed to
take off school so that they can finish the filming in time for the release.
There has been a rumour also that they want this extension to film CoS as
well, so that there is no problems caused by breaking voices.


More details at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1179000/1179084.stm



Simon
--
"I'm Dr. Simon Branford. I'm in charge of this floor, and this room is
off-limits to everyone..." - Draco Sinister Chapter 7 -- Easy Is the Descent
by Cassandra Claire - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb 19 20:05:05 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:05:05 -0000
Subject: romance in fanfic was Re: Lack of human affection in books
In-Reply-To: <96rona+9n5b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ru9h+8hav@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12631

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> 
> Digressing slightly from the topic at hand:  IMHO, a lot of fanfic 
> has gone entirely overboard with emotional displays. Some of the, 
> ahem, "less gifted" authors write some extremely unconvincing 
> romantic scenes, particularly with respect to the male half of the 
> interaction. I don't just mean from the viewpoint of beer-swilling, 
> sexist louts, but even as viewed by reasonably sensitive guys like 
> myself <g>. (end of digression)
>
	Considering the extreme youth of some of the ffnet authors, I find 
the lack of versimilitude reassuring, and rather amusing as well.   You 
also might consider it a response to the extremely unrealistic 
encounters, particularly with respect to the female half of the 
interaction, portrayed in commercial fiction written expressly to 
appeal to that hypothetical beer-swilling lout and even that reasonably 
sensitive guy. 

Pippin
who thinks that Jim sounds like a reasonably sensitive guy





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 20:29:38 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:29:38 -0000
Subject: Club copy of book-- My Oops!
In-Reply-To: <96rcku+tql8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96rvni+ovoa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12632

What an UGLY website!! Feh!

I didn't realize that she finally published the dang thing. Thurman 
House?? Who are they?

Well, if she has published it, then the Library of Congress should 
have a copy, right? Could we borrow it on interlibrary loan and 
photocopy it? 

Can we do this under "fair use"?

Thoughts,

Suzanne




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 20:41:06 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:41:06 -0000
Subject: Club copy of book-- D.C./Lib of Congress
In-Reply-To: <96rvni+ovoa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96s0d2+kcct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12633

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> What an UGLY website!! Feh!
> 
> I didn't realize that she finally published the dang thing. Thurman 
> House?? Who are they?
> 
> Well, if she has published it, then the Library of Congress should 
> have a copy, right? Could we borrow it on interlibrary loan and 
> photocopy it? 
> 
> Can we do this under "fair use"?
> 
> Thoughts,
> 
> Suzanne

the LoC doesn't do interlibrary loan, but someone who lives in DC 
should be able to photocopy it. Anyone on the list live in DC?

Heather M.




From ryndavis10 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 20:56:44 2001
From: ryndavis10 at yahoo.com (Ryan Davis)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:56:44 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Appearance of the Number 3
References: <F98FopYC98Bi89QtpfT0000357e@hotmail.com> <039601c097a6$57b4b5c0$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <016401c09ab6$77973ee0$0300000a@ryan>

No: HPFGUIDX 12634

Another set of three, I am not sure if anyone has stated this one yet as I am still playing catch-up on the posts, Malfoy, Crabe and Goyle.  Three "bad guys" and three "good guys/girls" Harry, Ron, and Hermonie.  
There are also three students who became anamangi, Sirus, Peter and James. Lupin was already a werewolf.
Three old "True Friends" Lupin, Sirus, and James.  I know that one is a strech, but so is this one:
Three main teachers, Dumbledor, McGonnell, and Snape
Three types of balls in Quidditch, Quaffle, Snitch, and the one that starts with a B.
Three schools at the TriWizard Tournement
Three Tasks
 
Different Topic:
I was reading GoF at the first task.  Why didn't Harry use the summoing charm on the golden egg.  It would have been alot easier.

Ryan Davis
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Denise R 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 4:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Appearance of the Number 3


  Well, Stephanie, there are more 3's in the world than the Trio of witches.

  :)

  Let's see.  We have three in the Holy Trinity?
  (It's considered the Christian's God's number, a holy number, as is 7, if I
  recall correctly.  I know man's number is 6.)

  In my religion, there is another 3--the maiden, the mother, and the crone.
  (More evidence that 3 is a god/goddess number?)

  We also have the law of return which works with 3x3 as the amount you will
  receive back.

  For a last comment, there's always Ron, Harry, and Hermione--3!

  :D

  Now, could someone take this and run with it?  I'm out of ideas, but I know
  there are more, my brain is just dead from computer-work today...

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com>
  To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 3:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Appearance of the Number 12


  >
  > OH NO....ha ha ha.  My english teacher goes on and on and on about the
  > signifigance of the number 3, and we are about to start Macbeth <vbg>
  > Anyways, she looks as it is an evil thing, though she claims "anything
  > signifigant comes in 3s or is a multiple of 3"  Anyways...i never noticed
  > all of the 12s before, and I htinkit is funny, or maybe it is JKR's fav
  > number.  Kind of like when you make a word search(for whatever reason)
  your
  > fav letters, or rather more common letters, appear more than less common
  > ones.  Just a thought...
  >
  > Stephanie
  > who shudders at the mention of the infamous 3
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From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Feb 19 21:55:35 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:55:35 -0000
Subject: ages / magic later in life
In-Reply-To: <96r29k+ndp2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96s4on+tes7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12635

Amy Z wrote:
> Re: ages and all these casting arguments, I take back something I 
> wrote recently, about Lupin being maybe 40 at the outside in order 
to be perceived by Harry as young-looking.  I keep forgetting about 
the wizard lifespan.  If McGonagall looks middle-aged at 70, the 
Marauders might well be in their 50's by now and still look like 
youngish adults (30's, to us Muggles). <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 
I was thinking this too, but if you think about it, even though the 
wizards might actually be 50 and look 30, you would still need actors 
that look 30, wouldn't you?  (Or whatever age the characters 'appear' 
to be.)  I would expect that Harry et al, will be a bit surprised 
when they learn Dumble is 150, as it seems they would probably guess 
he's about half that age.  It's my impression that it will be a 
surprise for the kids to learn about the longer lifespans, -because- 
the wizards, etc., look so much younger than they really are.  

> Star wrote:
> > I still doubt Petunia developing skills but it's still a 
> possibility. 

> Amy Z: 
> I go with Dudley as the one who will surprisingly develop magical 
> skills.  I just want to see the look on Vernon and Petunia's faces.
> He'd need a lot of character rehabilitation before he could be 
> entrusted with magic, though.  Send him to Boris the Bewildered's 
> Center for Nasty Little Wizards.

Yes, Dudley is my other suspicion for this 'person'.  And, actually, 
I half-think he may be the one JKR goes with.  Sort of as an eye-
opener for Vernon and Petunia and their bigoted views.  How could his 
parents turn against their little baby if he develops this power that 
they so hate and fear?  OTOH, I hate to see the despicable Dudley get 
such a fantastic gift....

Kelley




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Mon Feb 19 21:54:27 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:54:27 -0000
Subject: Hagrid the Hale and Hearty - character summary
Message-ID: <003b01c09abe$89753ec0$cb60063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12636

The first time we meet Hagrid, he is described as " twice as tall as a
normal man and at least five times as wide. " ( PS Ch.. 1 p 16 )

The next time we see him is crashing into the hut that the Dursleys
requisition to escape the letters from nobody. It is here we get an idea
of who he is. We see his shambolic pockets, his penchant for drink
stronger than butterbeer. But we also see his generosity and passion. We
learn that he is Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts.

We see him guide Harry into the wizarding world, having no real memory
of it. We already know that he is a man with secrets - he doesn't have a
wand, yet we see his umbrella point at things with results remarkably
like that of a wand. We also see the way he hides the umbrella in front
of Mr Ollivander.
And we learn that he was expelled. In COS we learn it is because Tom
Riddle made everyone think that Hagrid was responsible for opening the
Chamber of Secrets. We also see him removed to Azkaban when he is
suspected a second time.

During the course of Philosopher's Stone, we see how Hagrid ( I can
never quite get over the fact that he has a first name, Rubeus ) is
willing to extend his friendship to Harry's friends and how he has a
great respect and affection for Albus Dumbledore. Not to mention his
love for shall we say exotic pets.

He is always there to offer Harry, Ron and Hermione advice and Support
advice and support. He is always pleased to see the triumvirate at his
gamekeepers hut, although his efforts at home cooking leave a lot to be
desired !

He makes it clear that he knew Harry's parents well, but as yet has not
given any idea as to the reason behind their murder. Considering his
usual open nature, this is intriguing.

Hagrid's judgement is known to be poor - for example, he is trusting
enough to have got Aragog and Norbert from almost total strangers. It's
also interesting to note that he was given Norbert's egg while he was in
a pub.

Which brings me on quite neatly to the subject of Hagrid and Drink. He
shows us at the beginning of book one that he likes drink stronger tank
soft drink. And again, after the Buckbeak episode, he drowns his sorrows
in his hut. It also didn't escape my notice how many drinks Madam
Rosmerta served him in the scene with Cornelius Fudge in POA !

Perhaps the most important things we learn about Hagrid aren't revealed
until book 4. Goblet of Fire gives us a chance to see that he is in many
ways quite similar to Harry, an outsider who lost his parents at a
relatively young age who was unable to really bond with his mother. We
also begin to see why he is an outsider - a half-giant with all the
connotations that go with it. yet we also see the beginnings of a very
human need being filled in Hagrid with the arrival of Madame Maxime or
Olympe as he calls her. It is to her he turns to talk about his past. It
is only our good fortune that Harry is there to be our eyes for this
very revealing conversation. We see the possibility of Hagrid having
some form of companion. Although we can judge from Dumbledore telling
him that many people wrote in support of Hagrid when his heriage was
revealed, he has always cut a lonely figure, in spite of his obvious
popularity within Hogwarts and Hogsmeade.

The most amazing thing about Hagrid is that he is extremely wise. He can
see that Gilderoy Lockhart is a fool, he isn't afraid to let Ron know
that he is in the wrong in falling out with Hermione over Crookshanks.
Yet it is left to him to counsel Harry at the end of GOF. Albeit very
simple - What's comin will come, an we'll meet in when it does. But the
truth is amazing. As is Hagrid.


Questions for discussion

1 ) What makes Hagrid the right person for Dumbledore to send him as the
envoy from the wizarding world to tell harry of his Heritage ? Why not
professor McGonagall or the great man himself ?

2 ) Given how people feel about Giants, do you think that JKR uses him
as a way of making a comment about racism.

3 ) We see how Hagrid reacts to protect Dumbledore, alarmingly so in the
case of his threat to Karkaroff in GOF.  Is he a loose cannon ?

4 ) Hagrid and Drink - is this going to prove to be another part in his
downfall ?

5 ) What do you think the relationship between Dumbledore and Hagrid has
been ? Hagrid always appears respectful, but Dumbledore has stuck up for
him on more than one occasion. What do you think Dumbledore sees in
Hagrid ?

6 ) Is Hagrid a really powerful Wizard whose esteem has been lowered by
wrongful expulsion from Hogwarts ?




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Mon Feb 19 22:13:26 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:13:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Latin
In-Reply-To: <96pie1+8s2f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102191616260.6249-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12637

On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> Ah, but almost all of these have Latin roots. Some aren't obvious and 
> some are mixed up with non-Latin words too. 

Indeed, but having a recognizable Latin root doesn't make them "real"
Latin, since the forms aren't correct, which was all I was really trying
to say about them.  The vast majority of the spells are Latinate,
certainly, but not Latin.

> Ennervate comes from the Latin root "en-" which means to give or 
> enable, added to the word "nervus" which gained the meaning of action 
> or courage in the 1500's.

I don't think this is quite right.  There is no Latin prefix 'en-';
words beginning with 'en-' in English either are borrowings from OF, in
which case the Latin prefix 'in-' had already undergone a sound change,
or a formation in English using the prefix 'en-' which became productive
in English.  (There is, however, a Greek prefix en-, which is also
etymologically cognate to L. in-.)  'Ennervate' seems to be a
mis-application of this English prefix, equivalent to 'innervate',
meaning something like 'put vigor in'.  'Nervus' always had the
transferred sense of 'strength, vigor' as well as the basic meaning
'tendon, sinew'; it didn't need to acquire it later.  Those transferred
meanings are in the same semantic range as the meaning 'manhood' (in all
the senses in which that word can be used in English), whence the verb
'enervare', 'to weaken, unman' -- to take out the strength from or
emasculate (i.e., castrate).  There is no verb 'innervare' in Latin, but
it would be the opposite of 'enervare' -- had it existed and come to
English through Old French, we'd get 'ennervate(d)'.

> And "peskipiksi pesternomi" isn't a real spell. It means "pesky 
> pixie, pester no me." Lockhart is faking it and not doing a very good 
> job of it. 

Exactly.  Really not Latin -- makes you wonder, in fact, why the other
completely unLatin spells (Lupin's waddiwasi, for example), work at
all.  But clearly they do, as 'avada kedavra' amply demonstrates.  (Of
course, avada kedavra is somewhat anomalous anyway.)

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Mon Feb 19 22:23:44 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:23:44 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Re: Little Women
In-Reply-To: <3A91243C.865399B8@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <96s6dg+6dun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12638

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote:
> 
> > Cassie wrote:
> > >I don't think this necessarily means that I don't like Ron, 
which is
> > >an accusation often leveled at us H/H types...I like him okay. I 
just
> >
> > >don't like him with Hermione. However, if the books do tend that 
way,
> >
> > >I will survive. After all, Little Women is still one of my 
favorite
> > >childhood books, even though I have never forgiven Louisa May 
Alcott
> > >for what she did to Jo and Laurie -- a horrendous mistake IMHO. 
<g>
> > >
> >
> > Cassie is the third H/H-type that I've seen make this comment re: 
LMA
> > within the past two days.  I'd be interested to see what R/Hers
> > thought of the ending of *Little Women*.
> 
> I too *hated* that Jo didn't end up with Laurie!!  Hated it!  I 
haven't
> been able to re-read Little Women or any of the other Alcott books 
as a
> result.  Not only is the Amy/Laurie pairing despicable, but the fact
> that she stuck Jo with the Professor!  Nope -- this H/H shipper has
> never forgiven Alcott for that either.  <g>
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Mon Feb 19 23:03:47 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:03:47 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Re: Little Women
In-Reply-To: <96s6dg+6dun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96s8oj+88hl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12639

Okay, so I actually did post with original thoughts, but Yahoo 
decided not to accept them, so I'll try, try again!

Quoting Penny, who quoted Ebony, who quoted Cassie:

> > 
 Ebony wrote quoting Cassie:

After all, Little Women is still one of my favorite childhood books, 
even though I have never forgiven Louisa May Alcott for what she did 
to Jo and Laurie -- a horrendous mistake IMHO. <g>

 Cassie is the third H/H-type that I've seen make this comment re: 
LMA within the past two days.  I'd be interested to see what R/Hers
thought of the ending of *Little Women*.

Then Penny wrote:
 
I too *hated* that Jo didn't end up with Laurie!!  Hated it!  I 
haven't been able to re-read Little Women or any of the other Alcott 
books as a result.  Not only is the Amy/Laurie pairing despicable, 
but the fact that she stuck Jo with the Professor!  Nope -- this H/H 
shipper has never forgiven Alcott for that either.  <g>

Here's ME!

I was told repeatedly from the 5th grade on that I needed to read LW 
because I would *love* it.  So I tried.  And tried.  And tried.  
Finally, in the 8th grade I managed to get through it.  And was 
grieviously disappointed.  Laurie winds up with spoiled-brat Amy, Meg 
is continuously holier-than-thou, Jo gets stuck with the Professor, 
and Beth, whom I actually liked (other than obvious Jo) dies!  *This* 
is a classic?  I will admit to reading Little Men out of sheer 
curiosity, but haven't touched any other LMA since!

I'm a waffly shipper.  Canon has me leaning more R/H, but fanon makes 
me see the possibility of H/H (thanks to ASA & PoU).  Oh the 
dilemma!  Who is best for Hermione?  May the shipper debates continue!

Trina 




From bbennett at joymail.com  Mon Feb 19 23:19:52 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:19:52 -0000
Subject: HP Artist in S.A.--results
In-Reply-To: <3A913AC9.18CEEA4F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96s9mo+8g9h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12640

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> y my 

> 6. I asked about the scar alignment, the whole 
horizontal/vertical thing. He said that there had been some 
dissatisfaction on JKR's part with the book covers depicting it as 
vertical (my own preference). It sounded like something he'd 
discussed with her--he related that she told him that in her 
mind's eye, when Voldemort attacked baby Harry, the baby
flinched away, turned his head a bit, and so the scar is diagonal.

Doesn't the sketch JK Rowling did that appears in the SS special 
edition show the scar as vertical?  I don't own the book, but it 
seems that I remember a vertical scar (which is in my head now 
as "canon"). Anyone know?

Just curious!
B.






From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 23:35:57 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:35:57 -0000
Subject: Club copy of book-- D.C./Lib of Congress
In-Reply-To: <96s0d2+kcct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96sakt+kfkd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12641

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
<snip>
> > 
> > Well, if she has published it, then the Library of Congress 
should 
> > have a copy, right? Could we borrow it on interlibrary loan and 
> > photocopy it? 
> > 
> > Can we do this under "fair use"?
<snip>

I'm not a lawyer, but under my understanding, "fair use" only applies 
to excerpts, that can be used in various ways permissible under the 
law, such as for book reviews. So if someone grabbed the book, read 
it, and wrote a review to the list with certain relevant excerpts, I 
think the statute would cover it. Since we aren't making any money 
off of this, I think the actual intent of the law (to stop copyright 
infringement in business) wouldn't matter so much, but since this 
person is so litigious, it wouldn't hurt to get a clearer opinion. Is 
there a lawyer on the list? 

Personally, I'm content to ignore Ms. Stouffer's legal efforts, as 
the courts seem to be saying they pose little threat to the 
publishers. 

Charmian




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Mon Feb 19 23:33:14 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:33:14 -0000
Subject: Chapter 31 Summary 
Message-ID: <011001c09acc$5571c860$cb60063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12642

The Third Task

This opens with Harry relating almost everything he learns from the
Pensieve. With the exception of what he knows about Neville. They
discuss the possibility that Rita Skeeter might be a source of bona fide
information about Ludo Bagmann.

At the end of this day, we have a poignant scene where Harry considers
Neville'e position in relation to his own. We see that him begin to
become aware of the sacrifice of his peers during Voldemort's reign of
terror.

The action then moves on to preparing Harry for his third task in the
Triwizard Tournament. We learn that it is very close to Exam time for
most people, but all Harry, Hermione and Ron are concerned about is
making sure that Harry is well prepared to face the task ahead of him.
We see that McGonagall is also supportive, in as much that she is
willing to provide them with a place to practise. We see that he has
mastered lots of curses and spells which may well prove useful to him
away from the competition.

Ron is less involved with Harry's training, but he does see something
very interesting in relation to Malfoy Crabbe and Goyle. Why is Malfoy
to all intents and purposes talking to a tree with Crabbe and Goyle on
lookout ?

Sirius keeps reminding Harry that he must stay safe. In contrast to
Sirius' worry, we see how thus far the year's events have served to give
Harry the confidence to be less worried about the final task he faces.

However, he is bought down to earth with a bang on the morning of the
third task when another Rita Skeeter article appears in the Daily
Prophet. This time it really is personal, because the article implies
that Harry is mentally unstable, as illustrated by the way he reacted to
the pain from his scar during his Divination class. It is also suggested
that Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue is an indication that the
Golden Boy may not be as good as he is said to be.

Ron tries to work out how she would know what happened during Divination
and inadvertently gives Hermione an idea as to how the reports are
getting out.

Harry is then called to the Great Hall where the Champions families are
gathered to spend the day with their children. He thinks this is just a
formality because he can't see the Durselys supporting him. He  is
therefore very surprised, but pleased to see Molly and Bill Weasley have
chosen to come and be his
" family ". We see them reminisce about the people they know and things
that Bill and Molly got up to when they were at Hogwarts.

We then see a side of Amos Diggory that is not particularly pleasant, in
as much as he is not particularly civil to Harry. But then we see yet
another example of how honourable his son is when he tells Harry to
ignore his father. . We see just how protective Molly Weasley can be in
return.

During a tour of the grounds, we get a clue as to the timescale between
Molly and Arthur's time at Hogwarts and that of the Maurauders, Snape
and Lily when we learn that the Whomping Willow didn't get planted until
after Molly had left.  We catch up with news of Percy and learn the the
Minister of Magic himself will be one of the judges of the final task.

The scene moves to an almost OBHWF  during lunch. We see a less
attractive side to Molly Weasley in her cool demeanour towards Hermione
which only warms up once Harry allays her fears about  her not being his
girlfriend.

After a pre-task feast, the action moves to the quidditch pitch where we
see the maze that Harry, Cedric,  Victor and Fleur must tackle for the
first time. After an update of the scores and a reassurance that there
are stewards ( Hagrid among them ) who will rescue anyone in
difficulties, we see a staggered start for the four champions.

Harry gets a head start with Cedric because they share the lead but they
soon separate. It is eerily uneventful inside the maze until he meets
what he thinks is a Dementor. He instinctively conjures his Patronus
until he realises that is nothing more than a simple Boggart. He then
comes up against something that he has no spell to use against and must
just take a chance to get him through.

We see how useful Harry's training with Hermione has been when he uses
an impedimenta spell to disable a blast ended skrewt.

We then see Harry in Heroic mode when we see him willing to sacrifice
winning to help Cedric. We see that Krum is willing to win by fair means
or foul, when he tries to use one of the Unforgivable Curses, the
Crucio. Harry stops this and helps Cedric before moving on.

He then has to face a riddle which leads him nearer to the prize once he
has solved it.

However, when he gets to the prize, he has a dilemma. He sees that
Cedric is likely to beat him until they both run into a giant spider. It
is to their credit that they work together to defeat it. Unfortunately
Harry is injured in the process.

Then a heated debate ensues as to who is the rightful winner of the
Trophy. After much discussion they decide to take the trophy together.
Then begins the journey that changes both their lives indelibly.


Questions for discussion

1 ) Is Molly Weasley just over protective of Harry in her attitude
towards Hermione or is she prejudiced against Hermione because she is
Muggle-born ?

2 ) What do we larn about JKR and fair play in this chapter ?

3 ) Will Krum become a baddie ? ( CF his use of the Crucio Curse )

4 ) Can we take Hermione and Ron's willingness to sacrifice their own
study to help Harry prepare as a good sign for the future ?

5 ) Again looking at Molly Weasley and Amos Diggory, what do you think
their attitudes to harry and Hermione respectively say about their
belief in whatever the Daily Prophet publishes ?




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 19 23:36:23 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:36:23 -0000
Subject: Club copy - Lifespans - Filming problems
Message-ID: <96saln+p4f7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12643

Re: getting a club copy:  not every book published in the U.S. is 
available at the L.o.C., is it?  They are all in the catalog, is my 
understanding, not actually physically present.  Although it amuses me 
to think that "Thin Thighs in Thirty Days" has been ensconced there 
for perpetuity alongside the Federalist Papers.

Kelley wrote:

>It's my impression that it will be a 
>surprise for the kids to learn about the longer lifespans, -because- 
>the wizards, etc., look so much younger than they really are.  

It'll be a surprise for Harry, but the kids from wizard families must 
know--they'll have great-great-grandparents and all that.  I always 
enjoy scenes where Harry, with great astonishment, learns something 
amazing that Ron's always known.

Good point on the casting.  Of course, with all-Muggle casting (as far 
as we know <g>), some characters have to be played by actors younger 
than they are.  And good point by Jim on outside limits to Lily's age, 
assuming she is not more than several years older than Petunia.

Dr. Simon Branford, who may or may not exist outside of fanfic, 
reported:

>They have asked for an extension to the amount of time Daniel is 
allowed to
>take off school so that they can finish the filming in time for the 
release.
>There has been a rumour also that they want this extension to film 
CoS as
>well, so that there is no problems caused by breaking voices.

I don't get the problem with the breaking voices.  If they want the 
Trio to play these roles through to age 17, they can't avoid breaking 
voices, and why would they want to, anyway?

Oh well, I guess I don't understand movies or the making thereof.

I learned from the link that Zoe Wanamaker (Hooch) is Sam's daughter. 
 Cool.  I love him, & if he passed on 1/10th of his talent, I'll be 
happy with ZW.  (Digression: There was an odd reference to his leaving 
the U.S. during the McCarthy era that implied he did so because he was 
Jewish--?  I know he was blacklisted; he was one of many blacklisted 
movie people who later made The Front, a movie about Hollywood during 
McCarthy.)

Hope your weather improves!  (These weak-kneed moviemakers.  A little 
driving rain doesn't stop a Quidditch match, does it?)

Amy Z
enjoying having enough snow to have gone sledding in the driveway this 
afternoon--followed by hot soup in front of HPforGU...ahhh

----------------------------------------
"This is the weirdest thing we've ever
done," Harry said fervently.
       --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
----------------------------------------




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Feb 20 00:00:06 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:00:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Mirror of Erised...
Message-ID: <20010220000006.8B77536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12644

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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Feb 20 00:06:46 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:06:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Pureblood Status
Message-ID: <20010220000646.A9D10274B@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12645

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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Feb 20 00:12:28 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:12:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs / non-magic
Message-ID: <20010220001228.B913236F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12646

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 20 00:05:10 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:05:10 -0600
Subject: Club copy of book-- D.C./Lib of Congress
References: <96sakt+kfkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A91B4B6.553B14A7@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12647

Hi --

ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
>  >
> > > Can we do this under "fair use"?
> <snip>
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but under my understanding, "fair use" only applies
> to excerpts, that can be used in various ways permissible under the
> law, such as for book reviews. So if someone grabbed the book, read
> it, and wrote a review to the list with certain relevant excerpts, I
> think the statute would cover it. Since we aren't making any money
> off of this, I think the actual intent of the law (to stop copyright
> infringement in business) wouldn't matter so much, but since this
> person is so litigious, it wouldn't hurt to get a clearer opinion. Is
> there a lawyer on the list?

There are several lawyers on the list, myself included.  But, Heidi is
our IP expert.  I believe your interpretation of "fair use" is correct.
You definitely cannot copy an entire book under the "fair use"
doctrine.  It would be far preferable to have someone take notes &
excerpt it for our review.  Heidi may have more detailed thoughts.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Feb 20 00:20:00 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:20:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs / non-magic
Message-ID: <20010220002000.8C9052753@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12648

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From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 00:29:43 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:29:43 -0000
Subject: Scar alignment - SS deluxe version
In-Reply-To: <96s9mo+8g9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96sdpn+b1pi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12649

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> y my 
> 
> > 6. I asked about the scar alignment, the whole 
> horizontal/vertical thing. He said that there had been some 
> dissatisfaction on JKR's part with the book covers depicting it as 
> vertical (my own preference). It sounded like something he'd 
> discussed with her--he related that she told him that in her 
> mind's eye, when Voldemort attacked baby Harry, the baby
> flinched away, turned his head a bit, and so the scar is diagonal.
> 
> Doesn't the sketch JK Rowling did that appears in the SS special 
> edition show the scar as vertical?  I don't own the book, but it 
> seems that I remember a vertical scar (which is in my head now 
> as "canon"). Anyone know?
> 
> Just curious!
> B.

Well, I went and looked in my book, and there is _no scar_ visible. 
there is a thatch of hair right in the middle of Harry's head. the 
only line that _might_ be a bit of scar (but which i _think_ is hair) 
is slightly diagonal of vertical. JK! How could you've drawn a 
picture of Harry right from your mind with _no scar_!!!???!!

Heather M.




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Feb 20 00:44:32 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:44:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lack of human affection in books
Message-ID: <20010220004432.6DA4536FA@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12650

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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 00:44:45 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:44:45 -0000
Subject: Club copy of book-- D.C./Lib of Congress
In-Reply-To: <3A91B4B6.553B14A7@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <96selt+mnt6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12651


I thought this was probably the case, though I am not a lawyer.

My main concern is that I do not want to put money in Stouffer's 
litigious pockets. I would happily read the book in the libary and 
scribble out the notes and report back. I just don't want Stouffer to 
be able to say "See? There is a demand for my book!"

That's all.

--Suzanne





--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
> >  >
> > > > Can we do this under "fair use"?
> > <snip>
> >
> > I'm not a lawyer, but under my understanding, "fair use" only 
applies
> > to excerpts, that can be used in various ways permissible under 
the
> > law, such as for book reviews. So if someone grabbed the book, 
read
> > it, and wrote a review to the list with certain relevant excerpts, 
I
> > think the statute would cover it. Since we aren't making any money
> > off of this, I think the actual intent of the law (to stop 
copyright
> > infringement in business) wouldn't matter so much, but since this
> > person is so litigious, it wouldn't hurt to get a clearer opinion. 
Is
> > there a lawyer on the list?
> 
> There are several lawyers on the list, myself included.  But, Heidi 
is
> our IP expert.  I believe your interpretation of "fair use" is 
correct.
> You definitely cannot copy an entire book under the "fair use"
> doctrine.  It would be far preferable to have someone take notes &
> excerpt it for our review.  Heidi may have more detailed thoughts.
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Tue Feb 20 00:51:18 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:51:18 -0000
Subject: Chapter 31 Summary
In-Reply-To: <011001c09acc$5571c860$cb60063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <96sf26+jffg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12652

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> Questions for discussion
> 
> 1 ) Is Molly Weasley just over protective of Harry in her attitude
> towards Hermione or is she prejudiced against Hermione because she 
is Muggle-born ?

Molly has never shown any prejudice against muggles. The thing with 
Hermione only lasts as long as the Skeeter article. She never shows 
anything against her before the article
 
> 3 ) Will Krum become a baddie ? ( CF his use of the Crucio Curse )

No, not at all. He was under the imperious curse.

> 4 ) Can we take Hermione and Ron's willingness to sacrifice their 
own
> study to help Harry prepare as a good sign for the future ?

Definately. It's yet another sign of how important friendship is to 
what Harry achieves against the dark forces adn his friends support 
shows no sign of waning.
> 
> 5 ) Again looking at Molly Weasley and Amos Diggory, what do you 
think
> their attitudes to harry and Hermione respectively say about their
> belief in whatever the Daily Prophet publishes ?

They are easily led. They'll learn.



Dai




From kabukivice at beeb.net  Tue Feb 20 01:24:02 2001
From: kabukivice at beeb.net (Usual Suspect)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:24:02 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lack of human affection in books
References: <20010219063438.28686.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003201c09adb$f1caf7e0$2da320d9@rbfcj>

No: HPFGUIDX 12653

Um.  I think it's a British thing.  You don't really expect big hugs in anything, especially kids books.  Kids books are not big on hugs, and neither for that matter are tv series or films....

And I didn't see anything wrong with how Sirius treated him, or Lupin.  And it's not repression, it's reserve and trying not to embarrass anyone in public. <g> Besides, sometimes an awkward grasp of the shoulder can mean a lot more than a hug to over compensate.  

tootles

Heather, who was just watching an Angel ep where everyone hugged everyone else to show their feelings.  definitely never happen in the UK.

kabukivice : www.kabukivice.com : site portal
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julie Smith 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 6:34 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lack of human affection in books


  I've found it interesting how little affection/
  emotion/intimacy is in the books. I wonder why this
  is? Is it because the books are British, and let's
  face it, British people are much more stoicle about
  their feelings, or just that many of the characters
  are afraid of intimacy? 
  It's understandable in Harry's case, the Dursley's
  probably touched him as little as possible and I bet
  the first hug he ever got was from Mrs. Weasley in GF.
  I feel so sorry for poor Harry, I want to reach out
  and hug him myself!
  Sirius is sure reserved. He doesn't see Harry, his
  godson, for almost a year and he is all buisness and
  very nochalant when they do get together. Then when
  Harry comes within an inch of his life against
  Voldemort and is in serious pain you think Sirius
  could muster a hug or a few reassuring words, but no.
  Proffesor Lupin is even worse, I think he has serious
  intimacy issues. He was reluctant to get to close to
  Harry (to coach him against the dementors) and then
  when Harry needed emotional sopport after a session,
  the best he could do was make a move to reach out and
  grab his shoulder.
  I just bugs me how cold and guarded the magic world
  seems and I wish they's open up more, especially since
  Harry seems to need it so much.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Tue Feb 20 01:28:40 2001
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (rhodhry at yahoo.no)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:28:40 -0000
Subject: Filming and Breaking voices (was Re: Club copy - Lifespans - Filming problems)
In-Reply-To: <96saln+p4f7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96sh88+bg3h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12654

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
[snip]
> Dr. Simon Branford, who may or may not exist outside of fanfic, 
> reported:
> 
> >They have asked for an extension to the amount of time Daniel is 
> allowed to
> >take off school so that they can finish the filming in time for 
the 
> release.
> >There has been a rumour also that they want this extension to film 
> CoS as
> >well, so that there is no problems caused by breaking voices.
> 
> I don't get the problem with the breaking voices.  If they want the 
> Trio to play these roles through to age 17, they can't avoid 
breaking 
> voices, and why would they want to, anyway?
> 
> Oh well, I guess I don't understand movies or the making thereof.

I do not think it is common for children to have breaking voices 
before even being 13 (and Harry does nto get 13 until after the end 
of CoS).  It is not mentioned in the books anything about the 
awkwardness of breaking voices (and it is a bit awkward).  JKR may 
have her opinion on this as well, having said something about this to 
the moviemakers as well (she may have been planning for Harry's voice 
to break in book 5, for instance).




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 20 01:25:07 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:25:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups]an AOL poll thing
References: <96sakt+kfkd@eGroups.com> <3A91B4B6.553B14A7@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3A91C773.1ABEC919@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12655

At Keyword:Harry Potter on AOL, there's a vote for favorite & most hated
character - Harry is winning the former, with Hermione in 2nd - btu I
was a little twirled by the results of the latter poll:
Who's the nastiest Potter character?
  Professor Snape 10704   29.3%

  Dudley Dursley 3188   8.7%

  Uncle Vernon 5756   15.7%

  Draco Malfoy 16923   46.3%

Draco? Worse than Uncle Vernon who has been keeping harry locked in a
closet/room with no food & lied to him for 10 years?
How?






From homanm at umich.edu  Tue Feb 20 02:11:45 2001
From: homanm at umich.edu (homanm at umich.edu)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:11:45 -0000
Subject: fan fiction
Message-ID: <96sjp1+2r6n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12656

Hi Everyone.
I just wanted to send out a short note to tell you that chapter 3 of 
my brother's fan fiction, The Importance of Being Ron, has been 
posted at ff.net.  His author name is Gokuh4060.  If you get a 
chance, please take a look and write him a review; he'd really 
appreciate it.  It's quite a funny story.
Thanks,
Meg




From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Feb 20 03:11:57 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:11:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Little Women
Message-ID: <200102200320.f1K3K8C01261@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 12657

Trina wrote:
>and Beth, whom I actually liked (other than obvious Jo) dies!  *This*
>is a classic?  I will admit to reading Little Men out of sheer
>curiosity, but haven't touched any other LMA since!

I never actually finished reading it because I was so distraught once I 
figured out that Beth was dead (LMA used so many eupherisms it took me 2 
chapters--hey, I was 10, give me a break).  The only HP connection I can make 
to this is that this is what will probably happen if Ron dies--I won't be able 
to continue reading.  *shudders at the thought*

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From editor at texas.net  Tue Feb 20 03:29:20 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:29:20 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid the Hale and Hearty - character summary
References: <003b01c09abe$89753ec0$cb60063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <3A91E490.FFC98B91@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12658

Michelle Apostolides wrote:

> 1 ) What makes Hagrid the right person for Dumbledore to send him as the
> envoy from the wizarding world to tell harry of his Heritage ? Why not
> professor McGonagall or the great man himself ?

Well, Hagrid's big enough to intimidate the Dursleys without recourse to magic, and I imagine that Dumbledore was savvy enough to realize they probably would have a few objections
to Harry's attending Hogwarts. Dumbledore wouldn't want magic used in front of Muggles if he could help it, I'm thinking.

> 2 ) Given how people feel about Giants, do you think that JKR uses him
> as a way of making a comment about racism.

That seems obvious. Well, not racism precisely--stereotyping, classification, that sort of thing. Prejudice. Which is not exactly the same thing as racism.

> 3 ) We see how Hagrid reacts to protect Dumbledore, alarmingly so in the
> case of his threat to Karkaroff in GOF.  Is he a loose cannon ?

To a degree. But his "looseness" is predictable--you can generally tell what'll set him off. Slandering Dumbledore's right up there.

> 4 ) Hagrid and Drink - is this going to prove to be another part in his
> downfall ?

Why do we think he'll have a downfall? Am I not remembering something? I think it's a flaw in his character, but that's about it at the moment.

> 5 ) What do you think the relationship between Dumbledore and Hagrid has
> been ? Hagrid always appears respectful, but Dumbledore has stuck up for
> him on more than one occasion. What do you think Dumbledore sees in
> Hagrid ?

Dumbledore is, I think, a father figure. Not one that was adopted because the father was inadequate, but one that was adopted because a very adequate, beloved father died. So
there's been some transference to Dumbledore on Hagrid's part, subsequently built upon by years of association and trust.

Dumbledore sees Hagrid's wisdom and unique perspective on things. He sees someone who needed protection (shielding his parentage from general knowledge). He sees a potential asset
for the good side. Dumbledore is an organic person, in that he prefers to let things be, unfiddled-with, as much as possible, and sits back to appreciate the pattern of how events
turn out. [I think D. is capable of loads of effective fiddling when the need arises, but it just now has.] So Dumbledore sees Hagrid in Hagrid, and appreciates him for what he is.
And because what he is is a gentle, generous, straightforward soul, he loves him.

> 6 ) Is Hagrid a really powerful Wizard whose esteem has been lowered by
> wrongful expulsion from Hogwarts ?

I think this is irrelevant. Hagrid's not the type to exploit being a really powerful wizard, even if he is (or realizes he is). He's content with who he is.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Tue Feb 20 03:30:56 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:30:56 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scar alignment - SS deluxe version
References: <96sdpn+b1pi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A91E4F0.C1A8AAA0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12659

aichambaye at yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, I went and looked in my book, and there is _no scar_ visible.
> there is a thatch of hair right in the middle of Harry's head. the
> only line that _might_ be a bit of scar (but which i _think_ is hair)
> is slightly diagonal of vertical. JK! How could you've drawn a picture
> of Harry right from your mind with _no scar_!!!???!!

Well, Harry does tend to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to
cover the scar with his hair, when in the presence of strangers and the
curious. Perhaps JKR felt he was trying to "hide" when this "portrait"
was taken.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Feb 20 03:49:20 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:49:20 -0000
Subject: Lack of human affection in books
In-Reply-To: <qbk29tg8mlki85g2slo5brqlahtu3gp184@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <96spg0+2q7r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12660

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Monika Huebner <mohuebner0 at l...> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:20:51 -0000, rlpenar at y... wrote:
> 
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Julie Smith <whimzical at y...> wrote:
> >>  I've found it interesting how little affection/
> >> emotion/intimacy is in the books. I wonder why this
> >> is? <snip>
> >
> 
> I don't think so. But since the Harryverse is mostly populated by
> males, we won't see much open crying. 
> 
That's because, as medical research indicates, we have smaller tear 
ducts than you ;)

But don't forget Oliver Wood weeping with joy and relief when 
Gryffindor wins the House Cup in PoA, Chapter 15.

 "Then Wood was speeding toward him, half-blinded by tears; he seized
Harry around the neck and sobbed unrestrainedly into his shoulder. 
Harry felt two large thumps as Fred and George hit them; then 
Angelina's, Alicia's, and Katie's voices, "We've won the Cup! We've 
won the Cup! Tangled together in a many-armed hug, the Gryffindor 
team sank, yelling hoarsely, back to earth."

 - CMC 







From jferer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 04:33:57 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:33:57 -0000
Subject: Lack of human affection in books
In-Reply-To: <20010219063438.28686.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <96ss3l+ol1q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12661

Julie:" It's understandable in Harry's case, the Dursley's
probably touched him as little as possible and I bet
the first hug he ever got was from Mrs. Weasley in GF."

Aside from his parents, you mean, earlier than he can remember.

Julie:" Sirius is sure reserved. He doesn't see Harry, his godson, for 
almost a year and he is all buisness and very nochalant when they do 
get together. Then when Harry comes within an inch of his life against 
Voldemort and is in serious pain you think Sirius could muster a hug 
or a few reassuring words, but no."

Sirius did touch Harry and hold his shoulder while he talked to 
Dumbledore; but remember Sirius has only a limited acquaintace with 
Harry, godfather or no.  He 'knew' Harry for a few hours only before 
he made his escape on Buckbeak, and he's only seen him in fits and 
starts since then.

Julie:"Proffesor Lupin is even worse, I think he has serious intimacy 
issues. He was reluctant to get to close to Harry (to coach him 
against the dementors) and then when Harry needed emotional sopport 
after a session, the best he could do was make a move to reach out and
grab his shoulder."

Is that what a professor does? I never experienced anything like that. 
I know of school systems that forbid teachers to hug or be 
affectionate to students, period.  Are Lupin's intimacy issues more 
severe than Professor Dumbledore's or Professor McGonagall's?  Life is 
not like Leo Buscaglia, and most fourteen year old boys don't get that 
sort of affection from anybody but their parents.




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Tue Feb 20 05:45:18 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:45:18 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Re: Little Women
In-Reply-To: <200102200320.f1K3K8C01261@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <96t09e+kq4r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12662

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at c...> 
wrote:
> Trina wrote:
> >and Beth, whom I actually liked (other than obvious Jo) dies!  
*This*
> >is a classic?  I will admit to reading Little Men out of sheer
> >curiosity, but haven't touched any other LMA since!
> 
> I never actually finished reading it because I was so distraught 
once I 
> figured out that Beth was dead (LMA used so many eupherisms it took 
me 2 
> chapters--hey, I was 10, give me a break).  The only HP connection 
I can make 
> to this is that this is what will probably happen if Ron dies--I 
won't be able 
> to continue reading.  *shudders at the thought*
> 
> Kathy
> AKA Elanor Gamgee

I actually didn't mean when I posted about Little Women that *any* of 
the relationships contained therin particularly reminded me of any of 
the HP characters or their relationships. I think it was in response 
to someone who posted that they were R/H because "that's where the 
canon is going." I respect that, but I don't see it *for me* as a 
reason to be R/H (and would debate whether that's where the canon is 
going anyway, but that's a separate point.) Taking Little Women 
as "canon", that canon was *clearly* not Jo/Laurie, but Laurie/Amy, 
and Jo/Professor. Yet generations of girls, like me, have grown up 
revolted and furious by the L/A and J/P matchups, and miserable that 
Jo and Laurie didn't get together. So it's perfectly possible to 
disagree with an author's decision about their own characters' 
romantic future. In fact, it's a proud tradition. <g> (This I'm sure 
would apply equally to R/H ers if R and H don't get together in 
canon.)

Also, I must be a terrible person. I was unmoved by Beth's death and 
would happily continue reading JKR if Ron died. Ack!

Cassie




From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 08:28:07 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael oren)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:28:07 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] romance in fanfic
References: <96ru9h+8hav@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE45x4A2DreBBsQwY6Y0000a260@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12663

Hi,

As an experiment, I wrote two stories: one is very much in the spirit of the books (to the best of my ability, as i'm no JK) and the other is a sappy romance (not quite done yet).

I was going to save the aftermath for, well, the 'after', but since the subject has come up, and i do have preliminary results, i'll share them with you:

There is absolutely no doubt which of the stories in more popular. The soap-opera has almost twice as many reviews as the ala-JK story. I have many theories as to the reason, but i'll keep those to the real analysis when i'm completely done with the stories.

thanks, yael

  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
  > 
  > Digressing slightly from the topic at hand:  IMHO, a lot of fanfic 
  > has gone entirely overboard with emotional displays. Some of the, 
  > ahem, "less gifted" authors write some extremely unconvincing 
  > romantic scenes, particularly with respect to the male half of the 
  > interaction. I don't just mean from the viewpoint of beer-swilling, 
  > sexist louts, but even as viewed by reasonably sensitive guys like 
  > myself <g>. (end of digression)
  >


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Feb 20 10:20:18 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:20:18 -0000
Subject: Squibs / non-magic / Neville
In-Reply-To: <20010220001228.B913236F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <96tgd2+t0h0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12664

Kelley wrote:
> >Yes, it was the second one, she didn't ever mention squibs in this 
> >comment; that was just something that some of us extrapolated 
after whichever chat that was.  You're right, it may end up being a 
> >character we haven't met yet; I'd rather it be someone whom we're 
taking for granted has no magical power.  
> >
> Star wrote:
> Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.  What I would really like to 
see is Neville overcoming his fears and standing up for himself.  I 
think the only reason he's so clumsy and doesn't have much power is 
b/c he's afraid of the power due to what happened to his parents and 
feels so insecure and unsure of himself.  If he would get over his 
fears and stand up for himself I think that he'd have all he needed 
to become a great wizard, I think that's why he was put into 
Gryffindor, he's insecure and afraid now but in the end I think that 
he'll make everyone proud.
> ~Star~

Oh, definitely.  It seems there's no doubt we'll see more of Neville, 
and I can't imagine anything -but- for him to develop some strength 
and confidence.  I am dying to know more about the story of his 
parents, and what was done to his memory.  After Bertha Jorkins and 
what was done to her memory, this seems to be a foreshadowing to what 
was done to Neville.  I'm assuming his parents' torturers hexed his 
memory the way Betha's was.  As to the non-magical person who will 
develop powers, which characters, besides the Dursleys and Filch, do 
we know who have no powers?  Aside from Aunt Marge, etc., these seem 
to be the only ones, yes?

Kelley    




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Feb 20 10:32:25 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:32:25 -0000
Subject: Lifespans / Lily's and Petunia's ages
In-Reply-To: <96saln+p4f7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96th3p+n2fb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12665

> Kelley wrote:
> >It's my impression that it will be a 
> >surprise for the kids to learn about the longer lifespans, -
because- the wizards, etc., look so much younger than they really 
are.  
>
> Amy Z. wrote: 
> It'll be a surprise for Harry, but the kids from wizard families 
must know--they'll have great-great-grandparents and all that.  I 
always enjoy scenes where Harry, with great astonishment, learns 
something amazing that Ron's always known. <<<<<<<<<<<<
 
Ah, that's right, you're right.  I wonder if, when Harry does learn 
this, will it be news to Hermione too, or will this be something she 
read about?  This makes it even more strange that Harry has no other 
family than the Dursleys.

> Amy Z. wrote:
> Good point on the casting.  Of course, with all-Muggle casting (as 
far as we know <g>), some characters have to be played by actors 
younger than they are.  And good point by Jim on outside limits to 
Lily's age, assuming she is not more than several years older than 
Petunia. <<<<<<<<<<<<<

That is true; and we haven't learned anything about what Petunia's 
and Vernon's ages might be, correct?  I had always imagined Lily as 
younger than Petunia, for no real reason; but either way, they're 
probably no more than a few years apart, then.  Stronger evidence to 
Lily and James being fairly young when Harry was born, too.

Kelley 




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 20 12:01:36 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:01:36 -0500
Subject: coke!
References: <96sakt+kfkd@eGroups.com> <3A91B4B6.553B14A7@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3A925CA0.56068D16@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12666

Warner Bros. has picked the Coca-Cola Co. as its sole promotional
partner
       for the upcoming movie ``Harry Potter (news - web sites) and the
Sorcerer's
       Stone,'' the soft drink giant and studio announced Tuesday.

       The deal will put $150 million of Coke marketing muscle behind
the film as
       part of a global campaign tied to the movie's Nov. 16 U.S.
release.

       The ad campaign will include the placement of Harry
Potter-related images on Coca-Cola, Minute Maid and
       Hi-C packaging. It won't, however, extend to product placement in
the movie or images of Harry drinking
       Coke.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 14:03:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:03:25 -0000
Subject: FF: romance in fanfic - Coke
In-Reply-To: <OE45x4A2DreBBsQwY6Y0000a260@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96ttfd+g6br@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12667

Yael wrote:

>As an experiment, I wrote two stories: one is very much in the 
spirit of the
>books (to the best of my ability, as i'm no JK) and the other is a 
sappy romance
>(not quite done yet). 
>
><snip>
>
>There is absolutely no doubt which of the stories in more popular. 
The
>soap-opera has almost twice as many reviews as the ala-JK story. I 
have many
>theories as to the reason, but i'll keep those to the real analysis 
when i'm
>completely done with the stories.

A lot of the writing and reading of fanfic (as with any fic I guess) 
is fantasy-fulfillment, often of a very simplistic kind.  I read a 
book with a very sad ending (which I loved, and which was organic to 
the story) and checked out some of the fanfic offerings on the book.  
Half of them were attempts to patch up the ending.  In fact, a few 
authors seemed to have finished the book and immediately sat down to 
write a more palatable (to them) ending.

Romance as a genre tends to be in this vein, I think.  I'm a romantic 
through and through--I believe in true love and soulmates and all 
those things--but I like angst, 'cause, well, life is filled with 
angst as well as with love and beauty.  That's why I love HP!  It 
isn't just fun stuff.  Fluffy bunnies, yuck.

So keep on plugging with the non-fluff, Yael!

Heidi wrote:

>The ad campaign <snip> won't, however, extend to product placement in
>the movie or images of Harry drinking Coke.

Thank heaven for small favors.

Amy Z
reminding herself to stop buying Coke
(my, I AM feeling curmudgeonly this morning, aren't I?)

--------------------------------------------
"Flint nearly kills the Gryffindor Seeker,
which could happen to anyone, I'm sure..."
	    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
--------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 14:06:47 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:06:47 -0000
Subject: an AOL poll thing
In-Reply-To: <3A91C773.1ABEC919@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <96ttln+6sgm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12668

Heidi wrote:

>Draco? Worse than Uncle Vernon who has been keeping harry locked in a
>closet/room with no food & lied to him for 10 years?
>How?

This is a tough call.  They are nasty in different ways, but Draco is 
very possibly headed for an even nastier adulthood than Vernon's.  
He's only 14 and he's already a full-fledged bigot who goes to 
considerable lengths to get Hagrid fired, a sentient magical creature 
killed, cheers the death of a fellow student, etc.  I bet he tortures 
animals--he's that kind of kid.  He isn't in a position to be a child 
abuser, yet, but give him time.  

Hoping otherwise 'cause Cassie's Draco is more interesting (not to 
mention more...uh, never mind),
Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
Harry liked this clock.  It was completely
useless if you wanted to know the time, but
otherwise very informative.
                 --HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 14:29:57 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:29:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interim Ruling/club copy of book
Message-ID: <F215JGNzscE8NpqhNPP0000f39b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12669

Ok, so I have been reading these posts and feeling totally out of the loop.  
Who is this woman, what is this books, where is her site, when did she file 
a court case, why is she mad at JKR(aside from copyng a bok which Jo prob 
didnt), and how did you guys hear about this?  Wow, I covered them all! I 
could be the next Linda Ellerby from that news show for kids, you know with 
all of the questions...

Stephanie
The confused



>--- Jim Ferer <jferer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Jim Flanagan:"Stouffer's web site says that you can
> > "reserve" a copy
> > RatM now. They don't specify when they will ship.
> > Price is $19.95"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From nykteris at polbox.com  Tue Feb 20 14:26:38 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:26:38 +0100
Subject: the worst witch 
Message-ID: <002301c09b4a$04622540$7e604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 12670

Hello! 

    I remember an English (?) TV series "The worst witch" about a school for witches which resembles me Hogwarts. There was even one teacher (Miss Hardbroom, if I spell it correctly) very similar to our favourite 
Severus (his sister?;-)). The series was based on a book of Jill Murray or Murphy or Mill. Does any of you know the book and can give me its title and the author's name in proper version? 

Katarzyna 
 
    


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nykteris at polbox.com  Tue Feb 20 14:31:13 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:31:13 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Latin
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102181318050.14461-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <002401c09b4a$053c58a0$7e604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 12671

    Priori incantatem makes no sense in Latin because the form *incantatem*
doesn't exist. It's easier with Prior Incantato: prior - previous
(comparative of *propinquus*);  incantato can be or Dat./Abl. sg. form of
past
participle  of *incantare* or - and this possibility IMO is much better - 2
or 3 sg.
imperat. futuri activi. Although the forms are correct, it still makes no
acceptable sense in Latin.
    My theory is: everybody can learn Latin - so spells in pure Latin form
could seem too easy and too obvious, even for Muggles. But corrupted Latin
is something you can't discover on your own - you have to study it in
Hogwarts ;-))).

Katarzyna









From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 20 14:45:57 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:45:57 -0000
Subject: Who is Nancy Stouffer (was Re: Interim Ruling/club copy of book)
In-Reply-To: <F215JGNzscE8NpqhNPP0000f39b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <96tvv5+lgg6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12672

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at h...> 
wrote:
> Ok, so I have been reading these posts and feeling totally out of 
the loop.  
> Who is this woman, what is this books, where is her site, when did 
she file 
> a court case, why is she mad at JKR(aside from copyng a bok which 
Jo prob 
> didnt), and how did you guys hear about this?  Wow, I covered them 
all! I 
> could be the next Linda Ellerby from that news show for kids, you 
know with 
> all of the questions...


Since I am the writer of the Stouffer/Legal Issues FAQ (which will be 
available at some point soon!) it's my responsibility to do this 
response.

Nancy Stouffer is claiming that the terms MUGGLE and MUGGLES identify 
her goods, and that JKR, Scholastic and Warner Brothers' use of the 
term "MUGGLES" in the books and the ancillary products infringes on 
her use of the terms. 

According to her agent, Nancy Stouffer first contacted Scholastic in 
August about her concerns that elements in the Potter books, 
particularly the use of the "Muggles characters", violated Stouffer's 
trademarks. Stouffer's Muggle characters first appeared in her 1984 
book, Rah and the Muggles and were trademarked in 1986. No trademark 
applications were filed for the marks she is claiming to own until 
February, 2000. 

Ms Stouffer claims that the following similarities between the HP 
books and her book mean that JKR is infringing on her trademarks:
Both books have a mythical place, a great hall, a dark secret path 
(can someone tell me where in book 1 this is?) And surprisingly 
enough, boats by a lake and seats in a great hall! How unique!
The hp books have a  sorcerer's stone, and Neville's "body changes 
become blistered with boils"; the Stouffer book has a worry stone, 
and "Nevil[`]s bodies change become deformed/skin rough". 
She also thinks that because the hp books have a nimbus 2000 broom 
that flies through the sky  and her book has a nimbus mythical 
warrior that flies through the sky. Of course, a nimbus is a type of 
cloud, and is defined as a "radiant light that appears usually in the 
form of a circle or halo about or over the head in the representation 
of a god, demigod, saint, or sacred person such as a king or an 
emperor", and is a term from classical Greek mythology. 
Finally, she thinks that in book 1, questions are asked "before 
others already there". When did this happen in book 1? In class? 
During the sorting?
She also says that there's a similarity when the muggles [are] 
rejoicing "happy, happy day", whereas in her book, muggles [are] 
rejoicing "oh what a wonderful day" but no muggles in the hp books 
say that. Wizards do, on November 1, 1981.
IF YOU WANT TO READ MORE....
A lawyer who has a website including book reviews and book publishing 
information 
(http://www.crosswinds.net/~jsavage/journals/j9912.html#99Dec01 and 
http://www.crosswinds.net/~jsavage/journals/j0003.html) discusses the 
original Scholastic complaint.
Jenna's site has a great list of other places where the word MUGGLE 
has been used ? it's at  
http://www.geocities.com/harrypotterfans/muggles.html. Salon magazine 
has a similar list at 
A very funny fanfic about where Nancy Stouffer really got her ideas 
is at http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-
read&storyid=40128 ? it's called Son of Scabbers. 
If for some reason you actually want to see exactly what Nancy 
Stouffer has to say, go to http://www.realmuggles.com ? but don't 
send her any death threats or Avada Kedaveras. 






From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Tue Feb 20 14:49:04 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:49:04 -0000
Subject: Latin
In-Reply-To: <002401c09b4a$053c58a0$7e604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <96u050+gphl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12673

Here's another theory that's probably been mentioned before:  the 
actual words have little or nothing to do with the magic itself.  
Like a wand, they help the person casting the spell focus and bring 
forth the magic.  The process of learning a new spell was explained 
most clearly when Lupin was teaching Harry the Patronus charm.  The 
most difficult part was learning to focus his mind and fill it with a 
feeling of pure happiness -- holding the wand and saying the words 
were trivial compared to the mental work required to actually summon 
the magic from within himself.

This may explain why it is sometimes sufficient to say simply "accio" 
and not "accio <something>."  When the mind is clearly focused on the 
object, the words are superfluous.

Naming new spells may be much like naming new organisms -- I suspect 
that more than a few genera and species are not "pure" Latin, Greek, 
Sanscrit, or whatever.

-Jim Flanagan

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "nykteris" <nykteris at p...> wrote:
>     Priori incantatem makes no sense in Latin because the form 
*incantatem*
> doesn't exist. It's easier with Prior Incantato: prior - previous
> (comparative of *propinquus*);  incantato can be or Dat./Abl. sg. 
form of
> past
> participle  of *incantare* or - and this possibility IMO is much 
better - 2
> or 3 sg.
> imperat. futuri activi. Although the forms are correct, it still 
makes no
> acceptable sense in Latin.
>     My theory is: everybody can learn Latin - so spells in pure 
Latin form
> could seem too easy and too obvious, even for Muggles. But 
corrupted Latin
> is something you can't discover on your own - you have to study it 
in
> Hogwarts ;-))).
> 
> Katarzyna




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Tue Feb 20 15:14:54 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:14:54 -0000
Subject: godrics hollow - south wales?
Message-ID: <96u1le+qqnn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12674

just a thought

could godrics hollow be located in southern wales? in the first chapter of the philosophers stone hagrid sais that harry is sleeping during the flight over Bristol, and wouldnt the only place where you could start from getting out over great britain passing bristol would be somewhere in south wales...
that would of course be in a case where hagrid and harry actually came from godrics hollow...of course we know nothing of their location nor what they did during the 24 hours between when hagrid picked harry up at godrics hollow and when he delivered him to surrey...as steve van der ark states in his timeline at his site...
but if they came from godrics hollow wouldnt it put it in south wales?

all from me Im just talking without knowing...my first message and from sweden as well.....

sorcana




From xine48 at ync.net  Tue Feb 20 15:35:25 2001
From: xine48 at ync.net (Christine Olson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:35:25 -0600
Subject: Fan Fiction Down
In-Reply-To: <96u1le+qqnn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010220093017.02770a80@pop31.ync.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12675

Does anyone know how long Fan Fiction is going to be down.  I am in the 
middle of HP & The Show That Never Ends  (I should have printed it all out, 
but alas i didn't).  How long will I have to wait?

christine




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Feb 20 15:44:46 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:44:46 -0000
Subject: FF: Fan Fiction Down
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010220093017.02770a80@pop31.ync.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKELFDDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12676

Christine wrote: "Does anyone know how long Fan Fiction is going to be down.
I am in the middle of HP & The Show That Never Ends  (I should have printed
it all out, but alas i didn't).  How long will I have to wait?"

I cannot answer the ff.net question, but the story is also available on the
Yahoo Group Paradigm of Uncertainty. The link to the group is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty


Simon
--
Mrs. Elizabeth Branford of Devon. She and her young baby son, Simon, were on
a shopping trip to London ... "I was pushing Simon in his pram ... I hurled
myself over Simon's pram to protect him ... I heard the man I'd just passed
cursing loudly. I covered up Simon's ears ..." - A Sirius Affair Chapter
13 -- Trials and Tribulations by Penny and Carole -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty





From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Tue Feb 20 15:48:44 2001
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:48:44 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fan Fiction Down
Message-ID: <c2.75582a2.27c3ebdc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12677


Here is the file where you can find the whole story...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty/files/The%20Show%20that%20

Never%20Ends/

     Tessie



From xine48 at ync.net  Tue Feb 20 16:09:44 2001
From: xine48 at ync.net (Christine Olson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:09:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fan Fiction Down
In-Reply-To: <c2.75582a2.27c3ebdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010220100545.01b7bd40@pop31.ync.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12678

At 10:48 AM 02/20/2001 -0500, you wrote:

Thank you Thank You for help.  I am loving the fan fiction from Lori and 
AL.  I can't wait to try others.  They are keeping me sane until book 
5.  As soon as I am a little more comfortable with the list,  I hope to 
contribute.

christine




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 16:29:31 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:29:31 -0000
Subject: coke!
In-Reply-To: <3A925CA0.56068D16@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <96u61b+58rd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12679

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> Warner Bros. has picked the Coca-Cola Co. as its sole promotional
> partner for the upcoming movie > 

Well, it had to happen. I'm not sure about this *sole* promotional 
partner thing -if only- but we'll probably see a fast food tie-in as 
well, at least. ("McHogwarts?" *shudders at the thought*).
   
> It won't, however, extend to product placement in
> the movie or images of Harry drinking Coke.

 All I can say about this is WHEW! One of my favorite things 
about "Star Wars" is that when Lucas said, "A long time ago in a 
galaxy far, far away..." he completely ruled out direct product 
placement (inadvertently; it wasn't thought of in '77). 
 The result? Regardless of the media frenzy whipped up around them, 
the movies remain unspoiled by not-so-cleverly-concealed ads. Looks 
like HP may turn out the same way, which is MUCH better than having 
corporate sponsor logos slathered all over our beloved wizarding 
world! (Though no media tie-ins at all would be better stil, but just 
ain't gonna happen.)




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 16:37:56 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:37:56 -0000
Subject: Lack of human affection in books
In-Reply-To: <96ra43+tqqr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96u6h5+p4b0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12680

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rlpenar at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Julie Smith <whimzical at y...> wrote:
> >  I've found it interesting how little affection/
> > emotion/intimacy is in the books. I wonder why this
> > is? <snip>
> 
> As a very touchy-feely type person, I have also noticed this. I 
mean, 
> I hug friends when they come over to my house and when they leave. 
> But perhaps this is part of the reason why when I did my character 
> quiz (way back when) I came up as Hagrid. Hagrid seems to always be 
> hugging Harry, embracing Harry, falling on Harry, etc. Hagrid is 
also 
> just about the only person (other than perhaps Ginny?) who openly 
> cries. Is this a giant trait???
> 
Becky,

I was Hagrid too!  <hug, weep!>.
I feel the lack a bit too, but I think theres more of both hugging and 
crying that we usually remember.  Hermione bursts into tears on 
occasion, and hugs both Ron and Harry.  Harry himself cries a couple 
of  times I can think of, too.  And in that scene that someone 
mentioned at the end of book 4 - Sirius may not have hugged Harry, but 
he didn't take his hand off his shoulder the whole time they were in 
Dumbledore's office, and at one point it mentions that he was 
squeezing so hard it hurt.  That's not bad for somone who's both a 
guy and emotionally stunted by 12 years in Azkaban, I guess.  I'd have 
to make another run-through (such hard work!) but I think if I were 
looking for it, I'd find a lot more emotion and affection than I'd 
realized before.




From john at walton.to  Tue Feb 20 17:23:41 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:23:41 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch 
In-Reply-To: <002301c09b4a$04622540$7e604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <B6B8589D.C43F%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 12681

nykteris quoth:

> Hello! 
> 
> I remember an English (?) TV series "The worst witch" about a school for
> witches which resembles me Hogwarts. There was even one teacher (Miss
> Hardbroom, if I spell it correctly) very similar to our favourite
> Severus (his sister?;-)). The series was based on a book of Jill Murray or
> Murphy or Mill. Does any of you know the book and can give me its title and
> the author's name in proper version?
> 
> Katarzyna 

Actually, a rather amusing live-action TV version of the original "Worst
Witch" series of books (which I had as a small child, BTW) just finished its
latest series. IIRC, the books all have "The Worst Witch" in their titles
somewhere. Try typing "The Worst Witch" into an Amazon (or insert your
favorite online book purveyor here) search.

--John

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 17:31:22 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:31:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco/Vernon  WAS:AOL poll thing
Message-ID: <F209gFCGp33khCFQGKp0000f79b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12682

------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a tough call.  They are nasty in different ways, but Draco is
very possibly headed for an even nastier adulthood than Vernon's.
He's only 14 and he's already a full-fledged bigot who goes to
considerable lengths to get Hagrid fired, a sentient magical creature
killed, cheers the death of a fellow student, etc.  I bet he tortures
animals--he's that kind of kid.  He isn't in a position to be a child
abuser, yet, but give him time.

Hoping otherwise 'cause Cassie's Draco is more interesting (not to
mention more...uh, never mind),
Amy Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------

See, I always saw Uncle vernon as evil, as I did with Aunt Petunia more so 
than Dudley.  Dudley has been brought up this way.  he doesn't know things 
to be different, and I feel the same about Draco.  That is why i am so 
incredibly fond of Cassie's Draco.  I think that as people get older, they 
change basedon what they find in life.  As draco, and even Dudley go out in 
a world and spend more time away from their parents, they are exposed to 
different views than they normally would be.  They still have the abilities 
to change their personalities, or views rather.  I dislike Vernon and 
Lucius(why wasnt he on the evil people poll?)because they have had the 
oppurtunity to see the different opinions of the world and have chosen to 
ignore them.  Draco and Dudley still have that slim chance of being able to 
change their life for the better, though maybe not be as 'perfect' as Harry 
et all. (the latter I just don't see hapenning though.  Dudley will be 40 
and still living at home<vbg>)


Stephanie
who prays everytime she reads the series that Draco will redeem herself, and 
loves Cassie to pieces for writing the Draco I want to see in the series!!
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From kabukivice at beeb.net  Tue Feb 20 18:04:20 2001
From: kabukivice at beeb.net (Usual Suspect)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:04:20 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch 
References: <002301c09b4a$04622540$7e604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <015301c09b67$b6ae8000$709320d9@rbfcj>

No: HPFGUIDX 12683

The Worst Witch and a few others - mostly along the lines of 'the worst witch again' the worst witch returns' etc. etc.  They're doing the updated tv series on terrestrial now, and it's good, from what I've seen.  Got the looks perfect, too...
Oh, and brit kids kind of grow up with the Worst Witch.  There's also a film with Fairuza Balk, done in the early eighties or so.  Very good, trust me on this.
Jill Murphy, I think.

tootles

Gunbunny

kabukivice : www.kabukivice.com : site portal
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nykteris 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 2:26 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch 


  Hello! 

      I remember an English (?) TV series "The worst witch" about a school for witches which resembles me Hogwarts. There was even one teacher (Miss Hardbroom, if I spell it correctly) very similar to our favourite 
  Severus (his sister?;-)). The series was based on a book of Jill Murray or Murphy or Mill. Does any of you know the book and can give me its title and the author's name in proper version? 

  Katarzyna 

      


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Feb 20 18:09:12 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:09:12 -0000
Subject: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEBODBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <96ubs8+rcqg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12684

 "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> There is excessive attention paid to food descriptions in the Harry 
Potter
> books.  I've always figured it was because, at the time JKR was 
beginning to
> plot and write the HP books, she was a "welfare mom" and probably 
struggling
> to feed herself and her daughter.  When you're hungry, you think 
obsessively
> about food, you SEE food everywhere... in shop windows, in print, on
> television... When I'm "dieting" and go to bed a bit hungry, I have 
what I
> call "grocery store dreams", in which I push my cart up and down the 
aisles
> of the local grocery, filling it to the brim with cookies, snacks, 
candy,
> and other munchies.  Fortunately, I always wake up before I have to 
pay for
> it all...
> 

The Redwall Series by Brian Jacques has more food descriptions than 
HP. Jacques devotes paragraphs to the foods at the various feasts. lol 
The books are certainly not the thing to read while dieting.

> Speaking of food at Hogwarts, in PS/SS Chapter 10 (Halloween), at 
the
> evening's dinner (before the troll was discovered) it says "The 
feast
> appeared suddenly on the golden plates, as it had at the 
start-of-term
> banquet."  Which implies that the food does not appear suddenly the 
rest of
> the time.  I wonder if the day-to-day meals have the food arriving 
in more
> traditional ways, like a regular school cafeteria where you take 
your tray
> and pile up the food from a special table or counter, then go sit 
down.
> Before I noticed this sentence, I had assumed that it appeared 
magically at
> each table 3 times a day, and the kids helped themselves while 
seated.
> 

I also think there are a variety of foods during the meals, but we 
only see Harry eating the foods he likes best. I had a friend in 
college who would only eat raw broccoli and ranch dressing from the 
salad bar and never any other type of vegetable and I always ate a 
scoop of ice cream on a cone for dessert. I'm sure that the House 
Elves take good care of the dietary needs of the students. What does 
seem to be missing is 'junk food'. We really don't see Harry snacking 
on potatoes chips, pretzels, tortilla chips with salsa, etc. OTOH, I 
don't think we've seen Harry munching on fresh fruit either.

:-)Milz 




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 20 13:09:19 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:09:19 EST5EDT
Subject: Subject: Filch as a hall monitor, too?
Message-ID: <4B0F1C07E4@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12685

Speaking of drawers, I wonder.  Is there a drawer in that cabinet on 
the
4-some?  or has it been converted to a more normal use now that 
they're
gone/out-of-school-dead?


HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!  Wouldn't it be hilarious if Harry and Ron 
found the Filch Files on their parents?!  

Sorry, I find this funny on a personal level.  My younger brother (6 
years difference) worked in the High School front office during his 
"study hall" during school.  He nailed me severely on several things 
I *ahem* failed to tell my parents about (detention for telling a 
teacher that she was an administration a**kisser like the rest of 
them, detention for being an accomplice on a couple pranks pulled 
on our evil Snape-like Trig teacher, etc.).  So the idea that they 
could snoop around the files and find one on their parents cracked 
me up.

Anyway....

Rachel
A proud Scorpio (born on Halloween)

"Is he - a bit mad?"  he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard in the world! 
 But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From kabukivice at beeb.net  Tue Feb 20 18:29:19 2001
From: kabukivice at beeb.net (Usual Suspect)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:29:19 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dietary Needs at Hogwarts.
References: <96ubs8+rcqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <019b01c09b6b$0aca2600$709320d9@rbfcj>

No: HPFGUIDX 12686

  I also think there are a variety of foods during the meals, but we 
  only see Harry eating the foods he likes best. I had a friend in 
  college who would only eat raw broccoli and ranch dressing from the 
  salad bar and never any other type of vegetable and I always ate a 
  scoop of ice cream on a cone for dessert. I'm sure that the House 
  Elves take good care of the dietary needs of the students. What does 
  seem to be missing is 'junk food'. We really don't see Harry snacking 
  on potatoes chips, pretzels, tortilla chips with salsa, etc. OTOH, I 
  don't think we've seen Harry munching on fresh fruit either.

  :-)Milz 


  I think it's a Brit thing.  We only really have chocolate and crisps for snack food at school. (chips to you), and from what I can tell, snack levels are nowhere near as high here as they are in the US.  Ice cream... well... dessert, if you're lucky.

  tootles

  Gunbunny

  www.kabukivice.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 18:39:33 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:39:33 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Re: Little Women
In-Reply-To: <200102200320.f1K3K8C01261@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <96udl5+ipss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12687

> I never actually finished reading it because I was so distraught
> once I figured out that Beth was dead (LMA used so many eupherisms
> it took me 2 chapters--hey, I was 10, give me a break).  The only
> HP connection I can make to this is that this is what will
> probably happen if Ron dies--I won't be able to continue reading.
> *shudders at the thought*

Absolutely.  I got to the tournament scenes and, not liking Dobby
already, felt like the wind was knocked out of me when he informed
Harry that they had his "Weezy".  I put down the book, and of course,
I figured that JKR wouldn't kill off Ron yet, but the thought that
she might really sickened me....

....Craig




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 18:50:38 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:50:38 -0000
Subject: Filming and Breaking voices (was Re: Club copy - Lifespans - Filming problems)
In-Reply-To: <96sh88+bg3h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ue9u+f96d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12688

> I do not think it is common for children to have breaking voices 
> before even being 13 (and Harry does nto get 13 until after the end 
> of CoS).  It is not mentioned in the books anything about the 
> awkwardness of breaking voices (and it is a bit awkward).  JKR may 
> have her opinion on this as well, having said something about this
> to the moviemakers as well (she may have been planning for Harry's
> voice to break in book 5, for instance).

The problem with breaking voices is one of film continuity.  Film
shoots are often done out of order.  If the last shots in the film
feature a high-voiced Harry or Ron and the first shots show them
with deeper voices, it's going to seem really odd.  Worse still if
they are all mixed up.

....Craig








From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Tue Feb 20 19:19:40 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:19:40 -0000
Subject: Filming and Breaking voices
In-Reply-To: <96ue9u+f96d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96ug0c+nros@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12689

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> The problem with breaking voices is one of film continuity.  Film
> shoots are often done out of order.  If the last shots in the film
> feature a high-voiced Harry or Ron and the first shots show them
> with deeper voices, it's going to seem really odd.  Worse still if
> they are all mixed up.

I don't see this as a problem. A teenage boys voice will jump about 
octaves at random while his voice is breaking. Out of sequence 
shooting should therefore not affect technical accuracy.

Just remeber the teen from the Simsons who works at the Krusty Burger 
drive through...


Dai




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 19:27:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:27:02 -0000
Subject: 'ogwarts food
In-Reply-To: <96ubs8+rcqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96uge6+3ebc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12690

Milz wrote:

> The Redwall Series by Brian Jacques has more food descriptions than 
> HP. Jacques devotes paragraphs to the foods at the various feasts. 
lol 
> The books are certainly not the thing to read while dieting.

HP, on the other hand, are.  The food, while clearly supposed to be 
delicious, is almost entirely unappealing to this reader!  (Except 
for the bouillabaisse--yum.)

Amy Z
who will never, ever knowingly eat a kidney--I know what it's been up 
to!




From erinathogwarts at juno.com  Tue Feb 20 20:07:44 2001
From: erinathogwarts at juno.com (Erin E Gallagher)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:07:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: coke!
Message-ID: <20010220.150745.-380935.0.erinathogwarts@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12691

>Regardless of the media frenzy whipped up around them, 
> the movies remain unspoiled by not-so-cleverly-concealed ads. Looks 
> like HP may turn out the same way, which is MUCH better than having 
> corporate sponsor logos slathered all over our beloved wizarding 
> world!

Yes, but it's true that there is already mention in the books of modern
products.. Dudley has a Play Station, for example . . . and there is even
mention of computers, televisions, camcorders... which if shown, could
very well contain brand names... too bad.  Luckily, most of the brands in
the wizarding world are made up.. but then again, hasn't Jelly Belly
already started manufacturing Every Flavor Beans?  sigh.

~ Erin ( a new member)

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:29:31 -0000 nlpnt at yahoo.com writes:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> > Warner Bros. has picked the Coca-Cola Co. as its sole promotional
> > partner for the upcoming movie > 
> 
> Well, it had to happen. I'm not sure about this *sole* promotional 
> partner thing -if only- but we'll probably see a fast food tie-in as 
> 
> well, at least. ("McHogwarts?" *shudders at the thought*).
>    
> > It won't, however, extend to product placement in
> > the movie or images of Harry drinking Coke.
> 
>  All I can say about this is WHEW! One of my favorite things 
> about "Star Wars" is that when Lucas said, "A long time ago in a 
> galaxy far, far away..." he completely ruled out direct product 
> placement (inadvertently; it wasn't thought of in '77). 
>  The result? Regardless of the media frenzy whipped up around them, 
> 
> the movies remain unspoiled by not-so-cleverly-concealed ads. Looks 
> 
> like HP may turn out the same way, which is MUCH better than having 
> 
> corporate sponsor logos slathered all over our beloved wizarding 
> world! (Though no media tie-ins at all would be better stil, but 
> just 
> ain't gonna happen.)
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> 
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, 
> see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can 
> check out our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at 
> groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From editor at texas.net  Tue Feb 20 20:28:05 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:28:05 -0600
Subject: Coke again
Message-ID: <3A92D355.AE32F56E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12692

Over the sounds of teeth-gnashing and hair-rending out there, I will
point out that it sounds like the Coke people are going about the promo
stuff with a bit of good taste... the following also appeared in the
article, and didn't (I think) make it in the part quoted on the list :

"The campaign also will abandon common promotional gimmicks for movies
geared to children, such as sweepstakes and giveaways through fast-food
chains. Instead, literacy will be stressed."

Didn't give particulars, but that sounds heartening. I mean, SOME
corporate entity almost has to back something this expensive, and at
least they're making a stab at doing it well.

--Amanda




From snowy_owl05 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 20:34:21 2001
From: snowy_owl05 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Claire=20Saunders?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:34:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Worst Witch
In-Reply-To: <982697228.1287.91836.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010220203421.4394.qmail@web1804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12693

Hi Katarzyna

I can confirm that the Worst Witch series of books
were written by Jill Murphy. There are loads, from the
originals to TV series tie-ins. I did a quick search
on alphabetstreet, and here's (hopefully) a link to
what it found!

http://www.alphabetstreet.infront.co.uk/cgi-bin/search?queryText=jill+murphy&Zone=Author&search.x=27&search.y=19

Hope that helps
Claire :-)

Hello! 

    I remember an English (?) TV series "The worst
witch" about a 
school for witches which resembles me Hogwarts. There
was even one teacher 
(Miss Hardbroom, if I spell it correctly) very similar
to our favourite 
Severus (his sister?;-)). The series was based on a
book of Jill Murray 
or Murphy or Mill. Does any of you know the book and
can give me its 
title and the author's name in proper version? 

Katarzyna 
 

=====


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Tue Feb 20 20:34:46 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:34:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch 
In-Reply-To: <B6B8589D.C43F%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFAEEMCCAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12694

I don't know the author but here in USA on HBO's Family channel they are
running the half hour shows of The Worst Witch. They also had made a cable
movie of same name that starred Diana Rigg as Miss Hardbroom and she could
be the sister of Severus! Miss Hardbroom certainly had it in for Poor
Mildred. It also had Charlotte Rae as the headmistress and wonderful Tim
Curry as High Grand Wizard! Hope you can find a video of that one it is a
great movie. Sorry I couldn't help with the other.
Wanda the witch in Rever,Massachusetts.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Walton [mailto:john at walton.to]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 12:24 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch


nykteris quoth:

> Hello!
>
> I remember an English (?) TV series "The worst witch" about a school for
> witches which resembles me Hogwarts. There was even one teacher (Miss
> Hardbroom, if I spell it correctly) very similar to our favourite
> Severus (his sister?;-)). The series was based on a book of Jill Murray or
> Murphy or Mill. Does any of you know the book and can give me its title
and
> the author's name in proper version?
>
> Katarzyna

Actually, a rather amusing live-action TV version of the original "Worst
Witch" series of books (which I had as a small child, BTW) just finished its
latest series. IIRC, the books all have "The Worst Witch" in their titles
somewhere. Try typing "The Worst Witch" into an Amazon (or insert your
favorite online book purveyor here) search.

--John

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==



Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 22:51:05 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:51:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch 
References: <002301c09b4a$04622540$7e604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <01c701c09b8f$9d9b4080$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12695

I have seen a movie by that title, that starred Tim Curry-- is that the
right concept (the lady witches were doing some sort of "witch-ballet" on
broomstick as a special thing to him, and out in a field a batch of
evil-witches were cooking up a scheme against the school (sister to the
headmistress who IIRC was the Mrs. Garret from Facts of Life)?

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "nykteris" <nykteris at polbox.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:26 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch


> Hello!
>
>     I remember an English (?) TV series "The worst witch" about a school
for witches which resembles me Hogwarts. There was even one teacher (Miss
Hardbroom, if I spell it correctly) very similar to our favourite
> Severus (his sister?;-)). The series was based on a book of Jill Murray or
Murphy or Mill. Does any of you know the book and can give me its title and
the author's name in proper version?
>
> Katarzyna
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Feb 20 22:29:37 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:29:37 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Little Women
In-Reply-To: <96s8oj+88hl@eGroups.com>
References: <96s6dg+6dun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010219154341.02b40c00@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12696

At 11:03 PM 2/19/01 +0000, Trina wrote:
>  Cassie is the third H/H-type that I've seen make this comment re:
>LMA within the past two days.  I'd be interested to see what R/Hers
>thought of the ending of *Little Women*.

Put this R/H - H/G -er down as thinking Jo belongs with the Professor,
but agreeing that Laurie shouldn't have married Amy.  Looking at how he
is in _Little Men_ and _Jo's Boys_, it looks like Amy's influnces turned him
into a stuffed-shirt.  And their highly annoying daughter Bess seems hardly
someone free-spirited Dan would ever fall for... (There's only one man in the
world for Bess -- Dudley Dursley!)

I still don't know what you all have against Professor Bhaer, though.

>Laurie winds up with spoiled-brat Amy, Meg
>is continuously holier-than-thou, Jo gets stuck with the Professor,
>and Beth, whom I actually liked (other than obvious Jo) dies!  *This*
>is a classic?

Beth dies because her real-life counterpart did.  I tend to think LMA
carried the principle of "Write what you know" too far.

>I will admit to reading Little Men out of sheer
>curiosity, but haven't touched any other LMA since!

I love _Little Men_, but I have my pet peeves about it too: The way
she goes on about Nat being "amiable but weak" (would she say the
same about Harry?), while Dan is a "wild boy".  And then her endless
praise of Bess, especially how she "tames" strong-minded Nan (as
if Hermione turned into a stuffy Barbie Doll through the guiding influence
of Fleur).

_Jo's Boys_ is by far LMA's worst book, at least in the "Big Five" (the
three "Little Women/Little Men" volumes and the two "Rose" books).
She obviously has nothing left to write about, and so spends much of the
time preaching.  Then there's what she does to poor Dan -- throwing him
to the Dementors, so to speak.  I'm hoping that JKR is much kinder to
Sirius!

The two "Rose" books (_Eight Cousins_ and _Rose in Bloom_) are good too,
though Rose suffers from not having any of the little quirks that make Jo,
Nan, and other of her characters so endearing.  To use Trina's terminology,
she's another "holier-than-thou" type.  But Mac is like a male Hermione,
and Phoebe is the one Alcott heroine who is in any way sensual.  So these
books have elements that make me like them.  But in general I prefer
Jane Austen (and JKR) for vivid characters and a lack of Victorian
ambivalence.



                                                 -- Dave




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb 20 22:41:39 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:41:39 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Re: Little Women
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010219154341.02b40c00@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <96urr3+a3s6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12697

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

> Beth dies because her real-life counterpart did.  I tend to think LMA
> carried the principle of "Write what you know" too far.

	In those days, pre-antibiotics and vaccinations, many families 
lost children. And to bring this back to HP, no one in those times 
would have thought the death of a child 'too dark' for children's lit. 
Pippin





From ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com  Tue Feb 20 23:19:23 2001
From: ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com (Erich)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:19:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch 
References: <002301c09b4a$04622540$7e604cd5@default> <01c701c09b8f$9d9b4080$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <001801c09b93$8f7ff780$3b82d2cc@rochester.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12698

yeah, well now it's a series on HBO Family. I believe that there is one teacher who is not a witch, she is their gym teacher.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Denise R 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 5:51 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch 


  I have seen a movie by that title, that starred Tim Curry-- is that the
  right concept (the lady witches were doing some sort of "witch-ballet" on
  broomstick as a special thing to him, and out in a field a batch of
  evil-witches were cooking up a scheme against the school (sister to the
  headmistress who IIRC was the Mrs. Garret from Facts of Life)?

  ______________________________________________
  ??????????????????????????????????????????????
  ??????????????????????????????????????????????
  ~~Dee~~
  :)

  We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
  There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
  our eyes open.

  -Jawaharlal Nehru
  Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
  http://www.icq.com

  For those who love to cook:
  http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
  ______________________________________________
  ??????????????????????????????????????????????
  ??????????????????????????????????????????????
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "nykteris" <nykteris at polbox.com>
  To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:26 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] the worst witch


  > Hello!
  >
  >     I remember an English (?) TV series "The worst witch" about a school
  for witches which resembles me Hogwarts. There was even one teacher (Miss
  Hardbroom, if I spell it correctly) very similar to our favourite
  > Severus (his sister?;-)). The series was based on a book of Jill Murray or
  Murphy or Mill. Does any of you know the book and can give me its title and
  the author's name in proper version?
  >
  > Katarzyna
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
  > website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
  our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
  groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
  >
  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  >
  >


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  Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 23:27:04 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:27:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter 31 Summary
In-Reply-To: <011001c09acc$5571c860$cb60063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <96uug8+bovi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12699

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> The Third Task
> Questions for discussion
> 
> 1 ) Is Molly Weasley just over protective of Harry in her attitude
> towards Hermione or is she prejudiced against Hermione because she 
is
> Muggle-born ?
> 
Muggle-born doesn't have anything to do with it, as far as I can 
tell.  I've never seen any Weasleys engage in prejudice like that.  
But we've seen that Molly was taken in by Gilderoy Lockhart.  I think 
she reads the Skeeter articles in a similarly wide-eyed way.  It 
didn't occur to her that the reporter would be making up flat-out 
lies, so she really was worried about Harry.  This does, however, 
make it seem that she is far more fond of Harry than she is 
Hermione.  Of course, she'll get past that when Hermione's her 
daughter-in-law ;)


> 3 ) Will Krum become a baddie ? ( CF his use of the Crucio Curse )

He was under the Imperius curse.  I don't think you can judge much by 
that.  I honestly think that Krum is a white-hat, although that does 
somewhat tweak the theory I'd had in the back of my mind that maybe 
the imperious curse was similar to what they say about hypnotism - 
you can get someone to do things, but not something that is 
fundamentally against their nature.  Oh well, I guess I'll toss that 
theory.

> 
> 4 ) Can we take Hermione and Ron's willingness to sacrifice their 
own
> study to help Harry prepare as a good sign for the future ?
> 

When you consider how important studying has been to Hermione in the 
past, and when you further consider that Ron let Harry stun him half 
a dozen times or more for practice, it's clear that the two of them 
are behind Harry 100%.  They're obviously willing to go the extra 
mile.  Not that that's new - they've always made sacrifices for each 
other, from the moment Hermione lied to McGonagall about the troll.  
It just reinforces to me that they are true friends, and they 
consider themselves a team.

> 5 ) Again looking at Molly Weasley and Amos Diggory, what do you 
think
> their attitudes to harry and Hermione respectively say about their
> belief in whatever the Daily Prophet publishes ?

They, like many of us, tend to expect actual news from their 
newspaper, and thus don't think to question it.  The difference I see 
between them is that Diggory wasn't willing to accept the truth when 
he had the chance, whereas Molly did, as soon as it was presented to 
her.  Diggory chose to continue in his misunderstanding of Harry and 
the situation, even though Cedric had tried to tell him otherwise.




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Feb 20 23:45:32 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:45:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT, very-house elves
Message-ID: <20010220234550.4481736F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12700

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From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Tue Feb 20 23:46:39 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:46:39 -0000
Subject: Filming and Breaking voices
In-Reply-To: <96ug0c+nros@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96uvl0+dktk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12701

> > Craig wrote:

> >The problem with breaking voices is one of film continuity.  Film
> > shoots are often done out of order.  If the last shots in the film
> > feature a high-voiced Harry or Ron and the first shots show them
> > with deeper voices, it's going to seem really odd.  Worse still if
> > they are all mixed up.

Dai wrote: 

> I don't see this as a problem. A teenage boys voice will jump about 
> octaves at random while his voice is breaking. Out of sequence 
> shooting should therefore not affect technical accuracy.


Yes, but if only-just-turned-12 Harry's voice has pitch breaks to a 
lower pitch when he begs Dobby not to smash the pudding, and nearly-
13 Harry still has a higher pitched "little boy" voice when he gives 
Ron and Hermione his phone number, this would be somewhat distracting.
At least to me, I am an SLP!

Trina (who spent much of "Something to Talk About" wishing she could 
be Julia Roberts' screen daughter's speech therapist.  Her w/r and 
lisp on /s/ drove me insane!)




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Wed Feb 21 00:27:29 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:27:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]muggles, the term(Was  Who is Nancy Stouffer)
Message-ID: <20010221002741.698742742@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12702

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From find_sam at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 00:40:11 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:40:11 -0000
Subject: PE/Flying lessons
In-Reply-To: <96qbld+o48k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96v2pb+agfj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12703

> Does Hogwarts have PE/flying all seven years?

There are a number of possible answers... firstly, Hogwarts might 
only have flying classes in first year, so students can get the hang 
of a broomstick for later in their lives. 

Secondly, Harry might have flying classes that we just don't read 
about. I assume that Harry still does Astronomy, because he has an 
exam on it at the end of third year - 'then came Astronomy at 
midnight, up on the tallest tower', PoA, Chap. 16 - but to the best 
of my memory we've never been present at any Astronomy classes. Maybe 
we're just not present at these flying classes, which presumably have 
no exam.

Thirdly, maybe there ARE flying lessons but we don't read about them 
as Harry doesn't do them - perhaps he is exempt because he is a 
Quidditch player and flying lessons would be a waste of time for him?

In any case, the literary purpose of the flying lesson in the first 
book is just JKR's way of getting Harry on the Quidditch team, 
really. Once it's served its purpose, then it doesn't need to be 
mentioned anymore without being superfluous.





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 01:00:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:00:59 -0000
Subject: Troll incident
Message-ID: <96v40b+4vb7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12704

Ooh, Moongirl, thank you--you reminded me of a question I've had for 
ages!  (Well, since November, when I first read PS, anyway.)

I do not get the whole Hermione-lies-to-get-them-out-of-trouble thing 
in the troll incident.  The story she tells is very close to what 
actually happened; the only significant difference is that she makes 
out that she went looking for the troll on purpose.  (Also that she 
doesn't mention that H & R inadvertently locked her in with the 
troll--but I'm not sure she even knows that.)  The rest of the 
story--they heard the troll and rescued her--is in fact what happened. 
  So what did she do to save their skins with McGonagall?

Thanks--I can always count on the HP geniuses (genii to you, 
Jen <g>) for help--

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------------
"And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
"Aaah, I was going to have a fight.  Okay, I'll lose a bet."
"Yeah, you'll be betting I'll win my fight. . . ."
                               --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 01:11:08 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:11:08 -0000
Subject: Coke again
In-Reply-To: <3A92D355.AE32F56E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <96v4jc+rt92@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12705

Amanda wrote:

> "The campaign also will abandon common promotional gimmicks for 
movies
> geared to children, such as sweepstakes and giveaways through 
fast-food
> chains. Instead, literacy will be stressed."

Well...I feel somewhat better, but I think you're being too easy on 
Coke and WB.  The tie-in itself is a promotional gimmick intended to 
sell, not literacy, but Coca-Cola to children.  I'm glad they're not 
going to bribe kids with figurines, but the basic fact is that they 
are using kids' love of HP to get them to buy their product.  A 
product I happen to love to drink, but this ain't a public service.

> I mean, SOME
> corporate entity almost has to back something this expensive, and at
> least they're making a stab at doing it well.

Why does any corporate entity besides TimeWarnerAOL have to back it?  
The making of the movie (and any associated advertising which is what 
a tie-in is) isn't a nonprofit undertaking; it's an investment of 
millions by a company in a product (HP movies) that's bound to make 
them many, many millions more in profits.

Still gnashing my teeth and rending my hair, albeit more quietly,
Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that
 stood alone in the middle of the grounds.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Feb 21 01:13:54 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:13:54 -0000
Subject: Chapter 31 Summary
In-Reply-To: <96uug8+bovi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96v4oi+qd85@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12706

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> They, like many of us, tend to expect actual news from their 
> newspaper, and thus don't think to question it.  The difference I 
see between them is that Diggory wasn't willing to accept the truth 
when he had the chance, whereas Molly did, as soon as it was 
presented to her.  Diggory chose to continue in his misunderstanding 
of Harry and the situation, even though Cedric had tried to tell him 
otherwise. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Interesting.  Does anyone besides me think perhaps Mr. Diggory will 
go dark now that he's lost his much-loved son, and that overly-hyped 
(to him) Harry Potter was involved?  Or is there something at the end 
of GoF that I'm forgetting, something that tells us he doesn't put 
any of the blame on Harry?  My book's on loan, I can't check...

Kelley




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 01:19:26 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:19:26 -0000
Subject: Amos Diggory going bad
In-Reply-To: <96v4oi+qd85@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96v52u+s6j9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12707

Kelley queried:

> Does anyone besides me think perhaps Mr. Diggory will 
> go dark now that he's lost his much-loved son, and that overly-
hyped 
> (to him) Harry Potter was involved?  Or is there something at the 
end 
> of GoF that I'm forgetting, something that tells us he doesn't put 
> any of the blame on Harry?  My book's on loan, I can't check...

Just listened to this today (sigh...that concludes a re-listening of 
all 4 in order, which followed a re-reading in order, which followed 
a first read, which followed a first listen...how to fill the long, 
lonely days before OoP?)

::shaking herself::

It does say that neither of the Diggorys blamed him, and in fact 
thanked him for returning Cedric's body to them (beginning of "The 
Beginning").  However, grief gets worse before it gets better, and 
Diggory Sr. may yet succumb to hatred of Harry...you can always 
hope!  <g>

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
"I'm *not* going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
"That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
                      -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------------






From ender_w at msn.com  Wed Feb 21 01:42:07 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:42:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Filming and Breaking voices
References: <96ug0c+nros@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601c09ba7$8b1189c0$67eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12708


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dai Evans 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 2:19 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Filming and Breaking voices


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
  > The problem with breaking voices is one of film continuity.  Film
  > shoots are often done out of order.  If the last shots in the film
  > feature a high-voiced Harry or Ron and the first shots show them
  > with deeper voices, it's going to seem really odd.  Worse still if
  > they are all mixed up.

  >>I don't see this as a problem. A teenage boys voice will jump about 
  >>octaves at random while his voice is breaking. Out of sequence 
  >>shooting should therefore not affect technical accuracy.

  >>Just remeber the teen from the Simsons who works at the Krusty Burger 
  >>drive through...


  Dai



  There's a difference between a voice breaking a few times in one conversation or another  (which would not be a problem), and it being completely changed.  Again, if, at the beginning of CoS Harry or Ron has a smooth deep voice, yet in some end scenes they still have high, childlike voices, that would, indeed have a problem.  And yes, they can change that quickly.  I overheard an interview with Hanson, for example, and the kids were saying that in the course of recording one album, Taylor Hanson's voice went from being completely high to having completely changed.  Another sort of similar example is of the kid in Almost Famous who grew six inches during filming.  One might think that it wouldn't be a big deal for a teenage kid to show evidence of having grown during the course of the movie, but it affected the character dynamics (one character was supposed to much bigger than the kid). 

  ender 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ryndavis10 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 02:53:47 2001
From: ryndavis10 at yahoo.com (Ryan Davis)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:53:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Troll incident
In-Reply-To: <96v40b+4vb7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010221025347.26420.qmail@web4205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12709


Amy Z wrote:
> I do not get the whole
> Hermione-lies-to-get-them-out-of-trouble thing 
> in the troll incident.  The story she tells is very
> close to what 
> actually happened; the only significant difference
> is that she makes 
> out that she went looking for the troll on purpose. 
> (Also that she 
> doesn't mention that H & R inadvertently locked her
> in with the 
> troll--but I'm not sure she even knows that.)  The
> rest of the 
> story--they heard the troll and rescued her--is in
> fact what happened. 
>   So what did she do to save their skins with
> McGonagall?

Remember that Hermonie is in the bathroom crying
because she heard the mean things that Ron was saying
about her.  It could be argued that it was because of
what Ron said that she was in the bathroom and not at
the feast when the Troll attacked causing H & R to go
looking for her when they should have been headed back
to G Tower.  IIRC H & R had already been in some sort
of trouble, I need to go and look this up to be sure,
but I am sure that if I am incorrect in this someone
will be sure to correct me.  Hermonie then decided
that she would say that it is her fault that H & R
were not obeying orders to get back to the house
common room.  She did lie to the Professor and that
was a huge deal for her to do.

Ryan

-- Sorry I don't have a tag line yet, I am still new
to the whole HP Universe.



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Wed Feb 21 06:45:03 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (lj2d30)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:45:03 -0800
Subject: I'm in Love with Hermione: a filk
Message-ID: <000801c09bd1$d30d2ca0$b67d0b3f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12710

Having been inspired by the King of All Filks, Caius, I have decided to try my hand at filk-dom!  

To the tune of "I'm In Love With a Wonderful Guy" from _South Pacific_

Scene: The Great Hall

Enter, Harry, Ron, and Viktor Krum.

H&R: I have known her since the first day of school.
VK:   She was my date to the Ball during Yule.
All:    She is the girl who puts my heart in a whirl.
H&R  I'm in love with Hermi-ione!
VK:   I'm in love with Herm-own-ninny!

H&R: She is bookish and brainy.
         She never complains.
         She knows Hogwarts' Hist'ry.

VK: When the lake's watery hosts took what I'd miss the most, 
       It was Herm-own-ninny!

ALL: She is a most wonderful girl!

R&H:  She took a risk with the great Basilisk so we could find Gi-inny.
VK:    She fights for elf-rights and is never whineee!

ALL:  She is the girl who puts my heart in a whirl, 
         I'm in love, I'm in love, I'm in love, I'm in love,
H&R: I'm in love with Hermi-ione!
VK:   I'm in love with Herm-own-ninny!


Respectfully submitted for your approval.

Trina (hoping this goes thru, as I tried posting it at the site to no avail!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 05:06:01 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:06:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Troll incident
References: <20010221025347.26420.qmail@web4205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008801c09bc3$fd0eafa0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12711

Trouble before-hand--

Dueling with Malfoy (aka running in the opposite direction on the evening
after Neville broke his wrist {he too was with the group} and discovering
Fluffy!).... :)

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Davis" <ryndavis10 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Troll incident


>
> Amy Z wrote:
> > I do not get the whole
> > Hermione-lies-to-get-them-out-of-trouble thing
> > in the troll incident.  The story she tells is very
> > close to what
> > actually happened; the only significant difference
> > is that she makes
> > out that she went looking for the troll on purpose.
> > (Also that she
> > doesn't mention that H & R inadvertently locked her
> > in with the
> > troll--but I'm not sure she even knows that.)  The
> > rest of the
> > story--they heard the troll and rescued her--is in
> > fact what happened.
> >   So what did she do to save their skins with
> > McGonagall?
>
> Remember that Hermonie is in the bathroom crying
> because she heard the mean things that Ron was saying
> about her.  It could be argued that it was because of
> what Ron said that she was in the bathroom and not at
> the feast when the Troll attacked causing H & R to go
> looking for her when they should have been headed back
> to G Tower.  IIRC H & R had already been in some sort
> of trouble, I need to go and look this up to be sure,
> but I am sure that if I am incorrect in this someone
> will be sure to correct me.  Hermonie then decided
> that she would say that it is her fault that H & R
> were not obeying orders to get back to the house
> common room.  She did lie to the Professor and that
> was a huge deal for her to do.
>
> Ryan
>
> -- Sorry I don't have a tag line yet, I am still new
> to the whole HP Universe.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices!
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Feb 21 04:58:36 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:58:36 -0000
Subject: Casting couch - James and Lily have been cast (?)
Message-ID: <000c01c09bc3$0b5ac540$0b3770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12712

A few strong rumours from some of the Harry Potter fansites (particularly the unofficial Harry Potter movie site):

James and Lily have, allegedly, been cast.  

- The actress named as Lily is Geraldine Somerville, who some people may know as Jane Penhaligon from the British TV series "Cracker" (which starred Robbie Coltrane).   

- The actor named as James is Adrian Rawlins, who was in the Lars Von Trier film "Breaking The Waves".  He seems to do a line in "handsome doctors" or untidy-haired heroes.  He was also in the horror film, "Blood" and the film "Different For Girls".

I've added pictures of both these actors to the rumoured cast file (note: unless I've got completely the wrong person, the one of Adrian is ten years old - he has less hair now).  

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/

There's also a gallery for Geraldine Somerville, here: http://www.geocities.com/crackgal/Gallery.html

Adrian Rawlins seems to be a bit camera-shy!

The other rumour floating around is that John Hurt is playing Ollivander, not Morgana.

Neil

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Feb 21 05:42:21 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:42:21 -0000
Subject: Amos Diggory going bad
In-Reply-To: <96v52u+s6j9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96vkft+435s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12713

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Kelley queried:
> 
> > Does anyone besides me think perhaps Mr. Diggory will 
> > go dark now that he's lost his much-loved son, and that overly-
> hyped (to him) Harry Potter was involved?  Or is there something at 
the end of GoF that I'm forgetting, something that tells us he 
doesn't put any of the blame on Harry?  My book's on loan, I can't 
check...<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> And Amy Z answered:
>
> It does say that neither of the Diggorys blamed him, and in fact 
> thanked him for returning Cedric's body to them (beginning of "The 
> Beginning").  However, grief gets worse before it gets better, and 
> Diggory Sr. may yet succumb to hatred of Harry...you can always 
> hope!  <g> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

It did say that, then?  Did it seem to be enough to tie up Amos' 
dismissive treatment of Harry during GoF?  I suppose all that was 
merely device to demonstrate Cedric's noble nature, anyway.  Perhaps, 
you're right though, about his grief.  He, and Mrs. Diggory, as well, 
who knows, may have still been in such shock at the time, that their 
grief and anger are only just beginning to build...  We shall see...

Thanks for answering that for me,

Kelley




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Wed Feb 21 09:54:54 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:54:54 +1100
Subject: PS/SS Missing 24 hours ch 1 the Boy who lived
Message-ID: <01C09C48.C975E8E0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12714

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking but I had this idea regarding the missing 24 hours. I hope no 
one had brought it up before.

So Voldemor(t) goes to Godric's Hollow and kills James and Lily. He injures 
Harry. Somehow the wizarding world finds out so that by the morning it is 
a-buzz (indicating that the killing occurred sometime in that night or before).

The next night, near midnight, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid and Harry wind up 
at Privet Avenue. Hagrid indicates that he 'just got Harry out before the 
muggles started swarming around'.

So this is my idea. Hagrid got Harry out but the world is in uproar. Dumbledore 
is not sure of what has happened and where or what is safe. So he tells Hagrid 
to take Harry and hid with him somewhere safe (with Mrs Figg? At any rate a 
long way away because he has to fall asleep over Bristol) At any rate Harry is 
cared for, the wound on his forehead attended to and healed. When Dumbledore is 
more certain about what has happened and that everything is fine he has Hagrid 
move Harry to the Durseley's.

There Harry is left, sleeping peacefully, protected by whatever dry nappy, 
sleeping soundly etc spells Dumbledore and McGonagall saw fit to cast.

Ok, the text does not exactly support this idea but there is nothing that 
explicitly disproves it either (I think)

Thoughts?

storm




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Feb 21 12:18:14 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:18:14 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups]an AOL poll and abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <3A91C773.1ABEC919@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKEMDDDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12715

Heidi told us about an AOL poll: "Who's the nastiest Potter character?
  Professor Snape 10704   29.3%

  Dudley Dursley 3188   8.7%

  Uncle Vernon 5756   15.7%

  Draco Malfoy 16923   46.3%

Draco? Worse than Uncle Vernon who has been keeping harry locked in a
closet/room with no food & lied to him for 10 years? How?"

Having read a lot of messages about the impressions of Vernon the thing that
comes up time and time again is that many view him as a caricature and do
not really take him at all seriously. Roald Dahl, and his comic adult
villains, is mentioned in the same breath as UV many times.

Draco however comes across as a bully, used to getting his own way. On top
of this we see Lucius, who comes across as a very evil character, and see
the easy link between teenage Draco and becoming an adult very much in the
mould of his father.



Heidi asked: "QUIDDITCH and FANTASTIC BEASTS (what *are* we doing for
abbreviations? QTTA and FB or FB&WTFT (I prefer the FB, myself))."

I personally would use QTA and FB, simple but effective.


Simon




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 12:34:43 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:34:43 -0000
Subject: Casting James & Lily - More on Troll - Amos
Message-ID: <970cl4+hrf8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12716

Thanks for the casting update, FFA!  They look just right to me, 
except that I don't picture James as such a hunk, 90% MMWP fanfic 
notwithstanding.  Maybe if Adrian whatsisname buttoned up his shirt, 
put on some glasses, and turned off the sexy glower.

Thanks to those who posted re: the troll.  My troll-like brain is 
still sluggishly trying to understand.  I get that Ron & Harry had two 
strikes and therefore might be in big trouble due to their failure to 
go straight to Gryffindor Tower.  What I don't get is that what 
Hermione tells McGonagall (which gets them points added instead of 
expulsion) is that they rescued her, which isn't a lie; that's exactly 
what they did.  They came looking for her when they heard about the 
troll, because they knew she wouldn't know about it.  IOW, if they'd 
told McGonagall exactly what happened, she'd have heard virtually the 
same story as Hermione told her--minus the lie that Hermione herself 
went looking for the troll.

I think the essential part of the scene is that the shared adventure 
made them friends (not the shared lie nor the evidence that Hermione 
can lie to teachers with the best of them), but still, I am niggled by 
the feeling that JKR is trying to tell me something that I'm not 
getting.

Kimberly:  we don't hear anything from Amos D. in the final scene (he 
sobs through the entire conversation and we only hear his wife speak), 
so we have only Harry's/the narrator's interpretation that Amos no 
longer held Harry's various perceived sins against him.  

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
Dudley thought for a moment.  It looked like hard work.
            --Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Wed Feb 21 13:46:20 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:46:20 +1100
Subject: Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010222004620.007aed90@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12717

Intro first.

Hi, I'm Joanne, from Australia.

I'm on a couple of other HP lists for slash, hpslash, Harry/Ron and
Twincest, and I see a few faces I know *waves*. I'm a writer, though I
won't attempt any HP till I've read through the books at least once, I'm
currently almost finished PoA and I keep finding slashy hints (oh, and for
the record, I don't think Black's going to turn out to be a bad guy. I have
no basis for this, I've read no stories with him, I just have a feeling
that things are ambiguous enough that they could go either way).

The first question is, when one puts SHIP in one's header, should that be
the same for slash or non-slash ships? For example, the same for Harry/Ron
and Harry/Hermione (or whoever).

Second question, does this list allow fan fiction to be posted or is it
discussion only?

And a comment or two on some of the casting suggestions (I *love* talking
about casting suggestions).

Shanna wrote:

>I agree that Cate would make a beautiful Lily. 

I completely agree, she most certainly would.

>Since she's a bit part maybe there is a chance that if they cast her,
>they'd do her late. 

I don't know if this would be significant, but I read an interview with
Cate and she said that she doesn't take only leading roles, she takes roles
that interest her, and they're not about how large the part is, but how
interesting it is to her. She was talking about the role of Meredith Logue
in The Talented Mr Ripley at the time. So if that's the case, if Lily
interested her, I think she'd do it.

The only slight problem I can see is that she's not British, but
Australian, and didn't I read somewhere that Rowling is (quite rightly,
IMO), insisisting on an all-British cast?

Michelle wrote re: Kenneth Branagh as Lupin:

>Yuck - I was watching him In Fortunes of War again the other day. How
>much of a luvvie is he ? 

I think he'd be very good.

BTW, has anyone suggested Hugh Grant as Lockhart? I can see him in that
role, very easily.

>Jeremy Irons or the like will do very
>nicely thank you. Someone understated. 

Yes, that could be right, too. Though Irons is a little older than I
picture Lupin. I see him as a little younger than Snape. Though of course
this could be incorrect.

>As for Lily and James, we need to
>see just how much page time they get in the next three books before
>condemning them to the awful fate of some popular actor/actress who >over
eggs the pudding.

Why would a popular actor/actress be an awful fate? It really depends on
the acting ability, not the popularity, IMO.

And what does over eggs the pudding mean?

As for James, I would love to see Samuel West in the role. He's one of my
favourite British actors, probably best known for being in Carrington with
Emma Thompson and the Hornblower movie The Frogs & The Lobsters.

Joanne, who for some strange reason sees James Potter as having dark blonde
hair, even though Harry's is brown.


--

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversefic

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joanne_c

"You know you're famous when people start saying you're gay." Hunt Block.
"I gotta go see about a girl," Good Will Hunting
Official Commodus Concubine #1
Haakon's mistress
Founder of the Coalition For A Towel-Free Buck (CFTFB)
Founder of the Coalition For A Shirt-Free Chris (CFSFC)
Official Ray Vecchio Buttermilk Purveyor
Spike's Personal Happy Meal #6
Official LitD Brendan Slut #4
Half of the Dazed & Confused Duo with Margret
Jordan's godmother.




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Wed Feb 21 13:49:39 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:49:39 +1100
Subject: Lockhart musings
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010222004939.007ae420@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12718

I'm sure this has been covered, but if not...

Does anyone else get the feeling that Lockhart is like a "celebrity" author
and in reality some "ghost" (possibly even literally in the HPverse) writer
actually wrote his books? I remember thinking that after the pixie incident
in CoS, though I admit to being suspicious of him almost from the beginning.

Joanne.


--

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversefic

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joanne_c

"You know you're famous when people start saying you're gay." Hunt Block.
"I gotta go see about a girl," Good Will Hunting
Official Commodus Concubine #1
Haakon's mistress
Founder of the Coalition For A Towel-Free Buck (CFTFB)
Founder of the Coalition For A Shirt-Free Chris (CFSFC)
Official Ray Vecchio Buttermilk Purveyor
Spike's Personal Happy Meal #6
Official LitD Brendan Slut #4
Half of the Dazed & Confused Duo with Margret
Jordan's godmother.




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 12:13:57 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 06:13:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville
Message-ID: <F166gStMVhEUsebmspH0000c821@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12719

Hate to burst your bubble, but it already happened.  Remember how he won the 
House Cup for Gryffindor in PS/SS?  He stood up to Harry, Hermione, and Ron. 
  I think this task is more difficult- to stand up to your friends, rather 
than your enemies.

Someone earlier mentioned that Neville might be the Scabbers of the group.  
This is a good theory, seeing as he is the weak one of the Gryffindors, but 
I  disagree.  J.K.Rowling has made the Scooby-Doo group out of 3, not 4.  
Maybe originally she was going with 4, but after PS/SS, Neville was excluded 
more and more.

Signe
who is p-oed b/c she fell asleep before Buffy (the other cult following) 
last night

Star wrote:

>Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.  What I would really like to see is 
>Neville overcoming his fears and standing up for himself.  I think the only 
>reason he's so clumsy and doesn't have much power is b/c he's afraid of the 
>power due to what happened to his parents and feels so insecure and unsure 
>of himself.  If he would get over his fears and stand up for himself I 
>think that he'd have all he needed to become a great wizard, I think that's 
>why he was put into Gryffindor, he's insecure and afraid now but in the end 
>I think that he'll make everyone proud.
>~Star~


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Wed Feb 21 13:54:56 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:54:56 +1100
Subject: Character quiz?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010222005456.007ae420@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12720

Becky wrote:

>> But perhaps this is part of the reason why when I did my character 
>> quiz (way back when) I came up as Hagrid. 

Is this a quiz that can be found online? I would really love to do this. I
think I'd probably end up as Neville. Not that there's anything wrong with
that.

Joanne.


--

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversefic

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joanne_c

"You know you're famous when people start saying you're gay." Hunt Block.
"I gotta go see about a girl," Good Will Hunting
Official Commodus Concubine #1
Haakon's mistress
Founder of the Coalition For A Towel-Free Buck (CFTFB)
Founder of the Coalition For A Shirt-Free Chris (CFSFC)
Official Ray Vecchio Buttermilk Purveyor
Spike's Personal Happy Meal #6
Official LitD Brendan Slut #4
Half of the Dazed & Confused Duo with Margret
Jordan's godmother.




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Wed Feb 21 13:24:03 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:24:03 +0100
Subject: Anyone know these HP-related books?
Message-ID: <014501c09c09$901afb60$0e2e07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12721

Today I got notice that I am really allowed to write my final paper about Harry Potter. I have 100+ articles on my hardrive, but now I'll start to look at all the other books that are available.

First off, I think of buying J.K. Rowling: The Wizard behind Harry Potter by Mark Shapiro
Then I found a book that's called: Interview with J.K. Rowling, by Lindsey Fraser - actually it's more of a brochure than a book.

Does one of you know those and think they are any good?

And do you think that the Schaffer book will be any help? I have until February next year to finish the paper, that's lots of time, and I'll write most of it in the summer holidays. The faq's will be out until then, and I really think those will include more information than I'll ever need, right? Somehow I think the book is stupid and am really reluctant to buy it.

 ~ Dinah ~    

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows. 
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out, 
but when the darkness sets in, 
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth K?bler-Ross


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 13:53:23 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:53:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anyone know these HP-related books?
In-Reply-To: <014501c09c09$901afb60$0e2e07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010221135323.6468.qmail@web215.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12722


--- Dinah <betty_belladonna at freenet.de> wrote:
> 
> First off, I think of buying J.K. Rowling: The
> Wizard behind Harry Potter by Mark Shapiro
> Then I found a book that's called: Interview with
> J.K. Rowling, by Lindsey Fraser - actually it's more
> of a brochure than a book.
> 
>  ~ Dinah ~    
> 
I have the Shapiro book (gift from a friend) and
wouldn't really recommend buying it. It's full of
errors, even my daughter found them when she read it.
She wanted to know if the author had even read any of
the books (IIRC, it refers to owls running the banks,
for one example). However, if you can't get it from a
local library, I'd be happy to lend mine. (no sense
buying it if you don't need to)

Sheryll


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 21 14:00:45 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:00:45 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups]muggles, the term(Was  Who is Nancy Stouffer)
In-Reply-To: <20010221002741.698742742@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <970hmd+3eot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12723

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Star <star_ling at w...> wrote:
> Ok is Nancy Stouffer the creater of Muggles as in the doll from 
> Muggles Magical Toys Inc., as in the book and merchandise, 
> 
> 
No, she isn't. My understanding is that the MUGGLE doll mark was 
registered by Margaret Lynden and then assigned to Muggles Magical 
Toys, who has a registration to use the mark for Printed Materials, 
Namely, A Series Of Childrens Fiction Books, Posters, Calenders And 
Stationery, Clothing, Namely, Blouses, Skirts, T-Shirts, Sweat 
Shirts, Caps, Coats, Shoes And Socks; Clothing Accessories; and Dolls 
And Doll Accessories. They also own a bunch of pending applications.
My understanding is that Nancy Stouffer is trying to have this 
registration cancelled. Her first application was filed in 1993, so 
this usage really DOES predate JKR's, and she did use the mark - and 
SHE isn't causing a egomaniacally groundless suit to be brought 
against JKR because *she* sees the difference in their usages.

And to complicate things further, there's a piano bar with the name 
MUGGLES which was registered in *1981* for Retail Gift And Novelty 
Shop Services, And Restaurant And Night Club Services, and which is 
owned by some California corporation called MUGGLES. THEY predate 
everyone. 





From rlpenar at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 14:06:01 2001
From: rlpenar at yahoo.com (rlpenar at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:06:01 -0000
Subject: Character quiz?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010222005456.007ae420@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <970i09+p2hf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12724

Welcome Joanne! 

FYI - you can always do a search of the archives to find this stuff, 
but here's the address for the character quiz:

http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php3?client=hpcharacter

There is a link in the first paragraph to the House Selector Quiz 
also. Good luck!

Becky

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Joanne Collins <joannec at l...> wrote:
> Becky wrote:
> 
> >> But perhaps this is part of the reason why when I did my 
character 
> >> quiz (way back when) I came up as Hagrid. 
> 
> Is this a quiz that can be found online? I would really love to do 
this. I
> think I'd probably end up as Neville. Not that there's anything 
wrong with
> that.
> 
> Joanne.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversefic
> 
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/joanne_c
> 
> "You know you're famous when people start saying you're gay." Hunt 
Block.
> "I gotta go see about a girl," Good Will Hunting
> Official Commodus Concubine #1
> Haakon's mistress
> Founder of the Coalition For A Towel-Free Buck (CFTFB)
> Founder of the Coalition For A Shirt-Free Chris (CFSFC)
> Official Ray Vecchio Buttermilk Purveyor
> Spike's Personal Happy Meal #6
> Official LitD Brendan Slut #4
> Half of the Dazed & Confused Duo with Margret
> Jordan's godmother.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Feb 21 14:52:24 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:52:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anyone know these HP-related books?
References: <014501c09c09$901afb60$0e2e07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A93D628.FE510ABB@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12725

Hi --

Dinah wrote:

> Today I got notice that I am really allowed to write my final paper
> about Harry Potter. I have 100+ articles on my hardrive, but now I'll
> start to look at all the other books that are available.
>
> First off, I think of buying J.K. Rowling: The Wizard behind Harry
> Potter by Mark Shapiro

It's dreadful!  I would not recommend it.  As Sheryll said, it's replete
with errors.  The author couldn't even bother to get JKR's birthdate
correct.

> Then I found a book that's called: Interview with J.K. Rowling, by
> Lindsey Fraser - actually it's more of a brochure than a book.

I don't know this one.

> And do you think that the Schaffer book will be any help?

No, I really don't think it would be useful.  Schaefer also gives the
impression that she's trying to make a buck off the HP cash cow without
really putting in much effort.  One has the definite impression that
she's read the books once (and very cursorily at that).  She doesn't
even convey all that well that she *enjoyed* the books!  Then again, I'm
not a fan of this work -- maybe others will tell you it was useful.

> I have until February next year to finish the paper, that's lots of
> time, and I'll write most of it in the summer holidays. The faq's will
> be out until then, and I really think those will include more
> information than I'll ever need, right? Somehow I think the book is
> stupid and am really reluctant to buy it.

The FAQs will be out by then.  The JKR FAQ (to toot my own horn so to
speak) is much more complete & accurate than the Shapiro book.  It's
based on every interview & secondary source that I could locate.  If you
need it before it gets uploaded, let me know offlist & I can email you
the current Word version.

Good luck!  What fun -- to write a HP paper.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 14:49:17 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:49:17 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Troll incident
Message-ID: <F90gPOV5BrCQLayI4TY0000dc5e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12726

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not get the whole Hermione-lies-to-get-them-out-of-trouble thing
in the troll incident.  The story she tells is very close to what
actually happened; the only significant difference is that she makes
out that she went looking for the troll on purpose.  (Also that she
doesn't mention that H & R inadvertently locked her in with the
troll--but I'm not sure she even knows that.)  The rest of the
story--they heard the troll and rescued her--is in fact what happened.
So what did she do to save their skins with McGonagall?
Amy Z
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, Because she made it look like she was the one who had snuck off to do 
something silly/stupid it made the other 2 look better.  Do you remember the 
real reason they had to go look for her?  They went because Ron felt badly 
after saying some rather rude things about her, and she was crying.  She 
saved their skins by making them heroes, rather than boys who didn't want to 
be in trouble for scaring her off and being the 'cause' of her being eaten 
by a troll.

Stephanie
Who is "officially" a Gryffindor


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 15:06:45 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:06:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting couch - James and Lily have been cast (?)
Message-ID: <F274q3pzUXBqBjZGK870001072a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12727

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Wrote:
James and Lily have, allegedly, been cast.
- The actress named as Lily is Geraldine Somerville, who some people may 
know as Jane Penhaligon from the British TV series "Cracker" (which starred 
Robbie Coltrane).
- The actor named as James is Adrian Rawlins, who was in the Lars Von Trier 
film "Breaking The Waves".  He seems to do a line in "handsome doctors" or 
untidy-haired heroes.  He was also in the horror film, "Blood" and the film 
"Different For Girls".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm, maybe it is just me, but I strongly disagree with that man as James.  
Maybe it is because the picture is old, but I don't know.  Lily is not so 
bad.  She does look semi-how I pictured her, but they have to make her eyes 
more green, they are too blue-green.  Also, I always thought that when Harry 
sees them in the Mirror of Erised, he sees them as they were before they 
died, not as they would be now.  So I can see Geraldine playing someone 
younger but I don't see Adrian as playing a young guy.  But then again, 
maybe he DID see them as their older selves, but they DO have to be their 
younger selves for the photo album...

On THAT note, wouldn't it be great if we could catch a glimpse of sirius 
before Book 3, as in they cast him and stick his face in the album without 
making a big deal of it??

Other Movie/Not casting related items.  I posted this before, but I figured 
I would put it in a Casting Post where most would see it.  Start watching 
your local theatres for the trailer, I have a feeling it will be coming soon 
because my local theatre has the teaser Poster up outside with November 16, 
2001 as the release date.

Stephanie
who REALLY wants to be an extra....really badly, I could just play some 
inconsequential Gryf./Slyth. 7th year sitting at a table...
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Feb 21 15:34:35 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:34:35 -0000
Subject: Anyone know these HP-related books?
In-Reply-To: <014501c09c09$901afb60$0e2e07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <970n6b+u52v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12728


> And do you think that the Schaffer book will be any help

I am currently reviewing this book for the group. I will say that 
there is a lot of interesting material there and a lot of good stuff. 
However, there is a lot of problems with the book, a lot. They fall 
into three categories: 

1) straight factual errors (e.g. "Hogwarts is frequently surrounded 
by a thick fog, making it hard to see"), 

2) assumptions on the author's part, stated as fact, but which are 
without actual basis, along the lines of our assumption that James 
Potter was in Gryffindor or that the Lestranges tortured the 
Longbottoms - (sorry, don't have the Beacham book here so I can't 
give you examples from that book right now, but believe me, they're 
there), 

3) and ridiculous connections with everything from mythology to 
Biblical stories which imply that the HP books have all this deep 
connection to history and western culture, most of which is simply 
poppycock. 

I recognize that last as the kind of thing I did with poetry etc. in 
my college lit classes, finding all the deep meanings in Keats and 
Milton and Shakespeare. Hey, that kind of thing is just plain 
misplaced with Harry Potter. Rowling is NOT making all those 
connections and if SHE isn't, it isn't there, plain and simple. She 
didn't put Harry in a blanket on the Dursley's front porch to make 
him a symbol of the baby Jesus in swaddling clothes in the manger or 
Moses in a basket in the bullrushes or any such nonsense. She DID 
take a fairly standard image in our society of a baby abandoned on a 
doorstep, sure, but if that stereotypical image has its roots in 
Jesus or Moses (which I doubt), that doesn't meant that HARRY POTTER 
does. The Beacham book makes those kinds of direct connections, which 
is utterly indefensible. There are also even more silly connections 
made, such as the one that Pettigrew's missing finger indicates that 
he has "trouble making a point." How could she even write that? All 
of that sort of thing is lit criticism at its most pretentious, 
embarrassing, and foolish.

But like I said, there is plenty of good stuff too. And the trick is 
to separate the good stuff from the bad. I can do it, sure, but then 
I'm steeping in this Harry Potter stuff and I majored in literature 
in college, so I can spot the errors and assumptions and recognize 
silly allusions for what they are. What about kids? Teachers? Fans 
hungry for more about their favorite books? I just shake my head in 
dismay that this kind of schlock is published. If you choose to use 
this book as a resource for a paper, make sure you understand it for 
what it is and be careful; it's a minefield.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 21 15:55:20 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:55:20 -0000
Subject: Scabbers! Day on HP Calendar
Message-ID: <970od8+rjq9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12729

TOday's picture on the HP Day By Day calendar is Scabbers.
As I've said before, the people who decided to market Scabbers as 
this cute little pet, instead of a mass murdering git, trouble me 
(and make me wonder if they read through Book 3 or 4 because I cannot 
imagine how someone who read about this creature cutting off his own 
hand to raise Voldemort, slashing Harry, or, most horrifyingly, 
murdering Cedric in cold blood could draw/market such a darned cute 
little rodent)
But that's not what bothers me about the drawing. Didn't we learn in 
Book 3 that Scabbers' missing "finger" is on his front right paw? If 
so, then the drawing is wrong, because it shows the normal 4 fingers 
on that paw.
Okay, I'm being picky. 
So?




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Feb 21 16:02:02 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:02:02 -0000
Subject: Anyone know these HP-related books?
In-Reply-To: <3A93D628.FE510ABB@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <970opq+k020@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12730

Dinah wrote:

<< Then I found a book that's called: Interview with J.K. Rowling, by
Lindsey Fraser - actually it's more of a brochure than a book.>>

Penny said:
 
<I don't know this one.>

I saw this in a bookshop and had a skim through it.  It's aimed at 
children; part of a series of interviews with popular authors.  There 
isn't much of note in it, just the usual 'train-journey-single 
motherhood-writing-on-napkins-suddenly-I'm-a-millioniare' type of 
stuff with a few comments that sounded original.  IIRC, there were a 
couple of responses about the origins of characters' names that I 
hadn't heard before.

I didn't buy it, which says it all, really.

The Shapiro book is likely to be crap, given that it's one of those 
conveyor belt 'celebrity profile' books, written by someone who has 
no interest in his subject.

Neil
flying-ford-anglia





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Feb 21 16:17:18 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:17:18 -0000
Subject: Scabbers! Day on HP Calendar
In-Reply-To: <970od8+rjq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <970pme+raek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12731

 heidi.h.tandy. wrote:
> TOday's picture on the HP Day By Day calendar is Scabbers.
> As I've said before, the people who decided to market Scabbers as 
> this cute little pet, instead of a mass murdering git, trouble me 
> (and make me wonder if they read through Book 3 or 4 because I 
cannot 
> imagine how someone who read about this creature cutting off his own 
> hand to raise Voldemort, slashing Harry, or, most horrifyingly, 
> murdering Cedric in cold blood could draw/market such a darned cute 
> little rodent)
> But that's not what bothers me about the drawing. Didn't we learn in 
> Book 3 that Scabbers' missing "finger" is on his front right paw? If 
> so, then the drawing is wrong, because it shows the normal 4 fingers 
> on that paw.
> Okay, I'm being picky. 
> So?

If you look very closely, the fourth finger is shorter than the other 
fingers. The other fingers are sort of curled around that 'R'.

I think the portrayal of Scabbers is an accurate one (though I thought 
he was much chubbier before his weight loss in PoA). I really can't 
see any child bringing a psychotic-looking or psychotic-behaving pet 
to school, let alone wanting to have such a pet. As Scabbers, Peter 
Pettigrew had the perfect cover: he was belonged to a wizarding family 
with Ministry connections and he was "safe" from Voldemort supporters 
in Hogwarts. He's akin to the apple in Snow White: an innocuous 
something that is very dangerous. The Scabbers character is an 
effective 'cautionary tale' device.

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Feb 21 16:33:07 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:33:07 -0000
Subject: Lockhart musings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010222004939.007ae420@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <970qk3+ruka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12732

 Joanne Collins  wrote:
> I'm sure this has been covered, but if not...
> 
> Does anyone else get the feeling that Lockhart is like a "celebrity" 
author
> and in reality some "ghost" (possibly even literally in the HPverse) 
writer
> actually wrote his books? I remember thinking that after the pixie 
incident
> in CoS, though I admit to being suspicious of him almost from the 
beginning.

Hmm. We know that Lockhart used the experiences of others in his 
books, but you have a point. It wouldn't be surprizing if someone else 
penned the books and was "memory charmed" afterward. 

:-)Milz




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 21 16:37:28 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:37:28 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter & The Tone of Marketing
Message-ID: <970qs8+2sso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12733

Interesting article in today's SLATE magazine at 
http://slate.msn.com/moneybox/entries/01-02-20_101167.asp about the 
deal between WB & Coke. 
The interesting line by the reporter echoes some of the discussion 
here yesterday:
"the upshot seems to be that Coke is spending money not so much to 
get an endorsement as to give one. We may never find out what Harry 
Potter thinks about Coke, but Coke wants you to know that it is all 
for Harry Potter. In this curious process, the Potter properties are 
practically elevated to the status of some kind of charitable cause?
as though Coke were making a prominent donation to improve its 
reputation for doing good works on behalf of society at large."

Okay, Mister Rob Walker, reporter person, stop lurking!




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Feb 21 17:11:35 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:11:35 -0000
Subject: Stupid Stouffer book at LOC
Message-ID: <970ss7+d3og@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12734

I live in DC, right near the Library of Congress as a matter of 
fact.  I go there pretty often to do research, and I will be there 
sometime in the next few weeks.  I will try to find the Stouffer book 
and take notes, and xerox some excerpts -- since the money from the 
xerox machine goes to the Library and not to that @W#*$&@ woman.  I 
will post my findings and also send them to Heidi.

--Joywitch




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 21 17:37:36 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:37:36 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Marauders' Map
In-Reply-To: <96bkku+u32b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <970ud0+krar@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12735

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> 
> >And I *still* would like to know if Snape knew the Marauder's 
> nicknames, i.e.,

> Amy Z

I would like to know how Fred & George knew how to use the map...
Why could Filch not figure out how to use the map? 
Surely, if the map came complete with instructions, Filch could have 
used it.

Doreen from cold, cold Iowa





From katie at vquill.com  Thu Feb 22 05:40:30 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:40:30 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Marauders' Map
In-Reply-To: <970ud0+krar@eGroups.com>
References: <96bkku+u32b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010221213930.00b0fae0@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12736

At 05:37 PM 2/21/01 +0000, you wrote:
>
>I would like to know how Fred & George knew how to use the map...
>Why could Filch not figure out how to use the map?
>Surely, if the map came complete with instructions, Filch could have
>used it.
>
>Doreen from cold, cold Iowa

Imagination, stubbornness, and lots of free time? ;)

-Katie






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 21 17:48:45 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:48:45 -0000
Subject: Stupid Stouffer book at LOC
In-Reply-To: <970ss7+d3og@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <970v1t+cam0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12737

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> I live in DC, right near the Library of Congress as a matter of 
> fact.  I go there pretty often to do research, and I will be there 
> sometime in the next few weeks.  I will try to find the Stouffer 
book 
> and take notes, and xerox some excerpts -- since the money from the 
> xerox machine goes to the Library and not to that @W#*$&@ woman.  I 
> will post my findings and also send them to Heidi.


Oh, Brilliant! THis is the perfect way to get our hands on it. 
'Course, if they don't have it, we may be able to get it from the 
Patent & Trademark Office - she may've submitted a specimen from the 
book to the PTO with her application...




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 18:05:19 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:05:19 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Marauders' Map
In-Reply-To: <970ud0+krar@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97100v+ut5e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12738

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Amanda wrote:
> > 
> > >And I *still* would like to know if Snape knew the Marauder's 
> > nicknames, i.e.,
> 
> > Amy Z
> 
> I would like to know how Fred & George knew how to use the map...
> Why could Filch not figure out how to use the map? 
> Surely, if the map came complete with instructions, Filch could 
have 
> used it.
> 
> Doreen from cold, cold Iowa

Being a squib, Filch wouldn't have been able to figure the map out; 
to activate the map you need to use a wand, and to use a wand, you 
need to have magical powers.

Naama




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 21 18:13:36 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:13:36 -0000
Subject: Say it's your birthday! (Merchandise)
Message-ID: <9710gg+3q1c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12739

http://www.celebrateexpress.com/bexpress/product.asp?sku=2631 - 
Deluxe Pak for eight includes invitations, 9" plates, cups, forks, 
spoons and 16 napkins. Transform your party room into a magical realm 
with matching tablecover, wall decoration, mobile centerpiece, star-
shaped confetti, 18 balloons in three colors, three 81' rolls of 
crepe paper, 50 yards of curling ribbon and gold candles. 
They also have Party Favor Packs that include a Harry Potter sticker 
sheet, large glow star, lightning bolt tattoo, spinning top, mini 
mug, and glitter ball.
Also,  you can buy the individual plates, invitations, napkins, 
horns, etc. separately (the invites have the excellent hogwarts seal 
which is great - but the plates & napkins have the Drugged Harry On 
Broomstick pic that some of us don't like much)

I'm getting some of the thank  you notes now, just for the heckofit...




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 21 13:24:40 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:24:40 EST5EDT
Subject: Scabbers/Books
Message-ID: <63513C321C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12740

A friend of mine who is just now starting to read the Harry series 
recently bought a rat.  She said "I'm thinking about naming him 
Scabbers."  I gasped then laughed and said "Sure...go ahead.  But 
you'll change your mind later, I'm sure of it!"  She got it out of me 
that Scabbers was NOT a nice, yet lazy, pet.  :-)

I just bought the Quidditch and Magical Creature books through 
Amazon.  They're on sale for $7.98.  I figure $8.00 for Comic Relief 
is a nice little charity act, even if it isn't truly selfless.   :-)  NOW 
MARCH 12 WILL NEVER GET HERE!!!!
Rachel Bray

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Wed Feb 21 18:24:41 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:24:41 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coke again
Message-ID: <8.10880f65.27c561e9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12741

<<Why does any corporate entity besides TimeWarnerAOL have to back it?   The making of the movie (and any associated advertising which is what 
a tie-in is) isn't a nonprofit undertaking; it's an investment of  millions by a company in a product (HP movies) that's bound to make  them many, many millions more in profits.>>>

Oh that's an easy answer.

Money.

It's all about the money.

~Hedwig~

"Meow. Hoo. Meow. Hoo"



From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Feb 21 18:31:28 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:31:28 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting couch - James and Lily have been cast (?)
References: <F274q3pzUXBqBjZGK870001072a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c09c34$8f225c00$435a063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12742



> Hmmm, maybe it is just me, but I strongly disagree with that man as
James.
> Maybe it is because the picture is old, but I don't know.  Lily is not
so
> bad.  She does look semi-how I pictured her, but they have to make her
eyes
> more green, they are too blue-green.  Also, I always thought that when
Harry
> sees them in the Mirror of Erised, he sees them as they were before
they
> died, not as they would be now.  So I can see Geraldine playing
someone
> younger but I don't see Adrian as playing a young guy.

I can assure you that they have made the perfect choices for both these
parts. Any physical problems can be overcome with make up and contact
lenses. They are both superb actors and will really bring depth to their
respective characters once we really see them in action. My thanks go to
FFA who made my day with news of such well thought out casting.

Oh yeah, and id I happen to mention that AR is EXTREMELY sexy ?

Michelle




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 21 13:37:33 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:37:33 EST5EDT
Subject: My birthday party
Message-ID: <6388C84E8E@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12743

I turned 31 last Halloween and my friends threw me a Harry Potter 
surprise party.  Everyone showed up in black robes, magic wands, 
etc.  There were Every Flavor Beans (Jelly Bellies), Wizard 
crackers (colored cellophane wrapped around little prizes), the Fat 
Lady portrait on the front door that everyone had to give a password 
in order to get in (it was Dizz...my Girl Scout camp counsellor 
name), gummy worms, Hogwarts posters on the wall (they ended 
up being a gift afterwards), a white owl with a copy of the party 
invitation clutched in her talons sitting on the mantel (also a gift 
afterwards), the cake was in the shape of a castle, they suspended 
a broom from the ceiling with fishing wire so it looked like it was 
hovering and all the gifts people brought were Harry Potter related.  
There was a Sorting Hat sitting in the back corner on a stool (we 
ended up playing a really weird version of Truth or Dare with it....I'm 
sure the neighbors are still talking about it)  I was sooooo 
flabbergasted.  It was hilarious to see all my adult friends dressed 
in black robes, especially the ones who hadn't read the books.  
One of them brought their baby and her "costume" was a pillow 
case....she was a house elf.  

Ah, the benefits of having your birthday on Halloween.  Your friends 
don't feel strange running around town dressed up as wizards and 
witches for your birthday party.
Rachel Bray

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Feb 21 18:40:38 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:40:38 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others
References: <3.0.6.32.20010222004620.007aed90@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <002101c09c35$d7776620$435a063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12744

> Michelle wrote re: Kenneth Branagh as Lupin:
>
> >Yuck - I was watching him In Fortunes of War again the other day. How
> >much of a luvvie is he ?
>
> I think he'd be very good.
Well we won't have to argue about that now will we ?
> >Jeremy Irons or the like will do very
> >nicely thank you. Someone understated.
>
> Yes, that could be right, too. Though Irons is a little older than I
> picture Lupin. I see him as a little younger than Snape. Though of
course
> this could be incorrect.

> >As for Lily and James, we need to
> >see just how much page time they get in the next three books before
> >condemning them to the awful fate of some popular actor/actress who
>over  eggs the pudding.

> Why would a popular actor/actress be an awful fate? It really depends
on
> the acting ability, not the popularity, IMO.
Because if they are too popular then they may not take the part
seriously enough. Not a problem with the two actors who have been cast.

> And what does over eggs the pudding mean?
Over acts.

> As for James, I would love to see Samuel West in the role. He's one of
my
> favourite British actors, probably best known for being in Carrington
with
> Emma Thompson and the Hornblower movie The Frogs & The Lobsters.
Ohh yes. Very good. Very good looking too.

> Joanne, who for some strange reason sees James Potter as having dark
blonde
> hair, even though Harry's is brown.
Every one has their own mind's eye.


Michelle




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 18:49:50 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:49:50 -0000
Subject: muggles, the term
In-Reply-To: <970hmd+3eot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9712ke+c6b2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12745

Heidi wrote:

My understanding is that the MUGGLE doll mark was 
> registered by Margaret Lynden and then assigned to Muggles Magical 
> Toys, who has a registration to use the mark for Printed Materials, 
> Namely, A Series Of Childrens Fiction Books, Posters, Calenders And 
> Stationery, Clothing, Namely, Blouses, Skirts, T-Shirts, Sweat 
> Shirts, Caps, Coats, Shoes And Socks; Clothing Accessories; and 
Dolls 
> And Doll Accessories. They also own a bunch of pending applications.
> My understanding is that Nancy Stouffer is trying to have this 
> registration cancelled. Her first application was filed in 1993, so 
> this usage really DOES predate JKR's, and she did use the mark - 
and 
> SHE isn't causing a egomaniacally groundless suit to be brought 
> against JKR because *she* sees the difference in their usages.
> 
> And to complicate things further, there's a piano bar with the name 
> MUGGLES which was registered in *1981* for Retail Gift And Novelty 
> Shop Services, And Restaurant And Night Club Services, and which is 
> owned by some California corporation called MUGGLES. THEY predate 
> everyone.

Heidi, help us out here--isn't it all but impossible to trademark a 
term like this?  Especially since it's been around for years with 
many other meanings; the drug reference, e.g., is decades old--muggle 
has meant marijuana since before JKR was born.  (Hmmm...Muggles, 
Hooch...is there a subliminal, unwholesome message in these books?  
j/k!)

So doesn't Stouffer have to prove much more than "she uses the term 
Muggles and I use the term Muggles" in order to have a case?  And 
does it help JKR that someone else has already been using the term 
Muggles for something completely different?

Feel free to tell me to wait for the FAQ.

Amy Z




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Feb 21 18:56:49 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:56:49 -0000
Subject: The Brat I Enabled (filk)
Message-ID: <97131h+4i9c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12746

The Brat I Enabled 

Dedicated to Angela Boyko

(To the tune of Cat in the Cradle)

(The Scene: The Malfoy Estate. Enter LUCIUS MALFOY and DRACO MALFOY, 
as a toddler)

LM: Draco my son was born to wealth and fame
Would he add luster to our family name?
As I watched him eating in his lobster bib
I had this horrible feeling he'd turn out a squib
But as soon as he could talk I knew he gave me a clue
He said  
 DM  (as toddler) I'm gonna root for You-Know-Who, Dad
You know that I'll serve You-Know-Who

LM: That's the brat I've enabled with a silver spoon
Who with Death Eaters will one day commune
DM (as toddler): When will He come back, Dad?
LM: I don't know when
We're gonna have a good time then son
BOTH: We're gonna fry some Mudbloods then!

(Dissolve to the teen DRACO)

LM: Draco went to Hogwarts on that Express train
His demeanor dripped with ice-cold disdain
He was placed in Slytherin by the Sorting Hat
As if there were ever any doubt of that 
And he sent an owl to me after his debut
That said  
DM: (as teen) I'll always root for You-Know-Who, Dad
You know that I'll serve You-Know-Who

LM: You're the brat I enabled with a silver spoon
Got you on the team with a high-priced broom
DM: When will He come back, Dad?
LM: I don't know when
We're gonna have a good time then son
BOTH: You're/I'm gonna get your/my Dark Mark then!

LM: Enrolled in Hogwarts he did real fine
Beat up kids from Hufflepuff all the time
Got nice and cozy with Professor Snape
But he needed to get his grades in better shape
Cause that Granger girl was doing better than you
He said 
DM: I'm so busy serving You-Know-Who, Dad
I root so hard for You-Know-Who.

LM:  He's the brat I enabled with a silver spoon
Who makes every fan of black leather swoon
DM: Is He ever coming back, Dad?
LM: Quite soon and then
We're gonna have a good time when son
BOTH: We slaughter Harry Potter then!

LM: Now the Dark Lord is back and aren't we ever glad!
We're all proud to join his new jihad
After Cedric was killed I was pleased to note
That Draco put aside a little time to gloat
When I said they'll be some changes made long overdue
He said  
DM: You-Know-Who at last came through, Dad
Can't wait till I serve You-Know-Who

BOTH: Here's/I'm the brat I've/you've enabled with a
silver spoon
He's/I'm home for the summer every year in June
DM: Am I going back to Hogwarts, Dad?
LM: I don't see how
But we're gonna have a good time now son
BOTH: We'll both be Unforgiven now!

  - CMC





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 21 19:01:26 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:01:26 -0000
Subject: muggles, the term/trademark law
In-Reply-To: <9712ke+c6b2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9713a6+r44u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12747

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Heidi, help us out here--isn't it all but impossible to trademark a 
> term like this?  Especially since it's been around for years with 
> many other meanings; the drug reference, e.g., is decades old--
muggle 
> has meant marijuana since before JKR was born.  
No, you can trademark a  common "dictionary" word for goods & 
services, especially if the word, as applied to the goods, is 
arbitrary. It's like using the term APPLE for computers or RIO for 
MP3 players - they're regular words, but mean nothing, other than the 
brand name of the goods themselves. 

> 
> So doesn't Stouffer have to prove much more than "she uses the term 
> Muggles and I use the term Muggles" in order to have a case?  
Yes, she does. SHe has to prove that there's likeihood of confusion 
between JKR's goods and her goods - and she has to show more 
than "Friends of mine asked me if I had let her use my mark..."  This 
exact thing was an issue in a case I worked on back in 1997/1998 
where we represented Conde Nast in a suit filed by a magazine called 
Sports Traveler - the judge said that it had to be consumers who were 
potential customers of one of hte parties who were confused, but 
friends & consultants to the plaintiff don't count.

> And 
> does it help JKR that someone else has already been using the term 
> Muggles for something completely different?

Since one of the people who'd been using it was using it for dolls, 
it does help JKR. Also, it is evidence against Stouffer's contention 
that she coined the term MUGGLES and it doesn't exist as a word 
independant of her (whereas other "coined" terms like Marimba, 
Everready and Doonsbury didn't exist before their creators developed 
them).

 
> Feel free to tell me to wait for the FAQ.
Nah - hope this helps!





From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 21 19:04:13 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:04:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Marauders' Map
References: <97100v+ut5e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013101c09c39$157a9d40$6114a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12748


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: naama_gat at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 12:05 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Marauders' Map


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
  > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
  > > Amanda wrote:
  > > 
  > > >And I *still* would like to know if Snape knew the Marauder's 
  > > nicknames, i.e.,
  > 
  > > Amy Z
  > 
  > I would like to know how Fred & George knew how to use the map...
  > Why could Filch not figure out how to use the map? 
  > Surely, if the map came complete with instructions, Filch could 
  have 
  > used it.
  > 
  > Doreen from cold, cold Iowa

  Being a squib, Filch wouldn't have been able to figure the map out; 
  to activate the map you need to use a wand, and to use a wand, you 
  need to have magical powers.

  Naama

  While I understand the squib/wand part of your answer, there are still the magic words, "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." and, "Mischief managed". How did Fred & George know the magic words? 
  Fred tells Harry, "Just tap it again and say, "Mischief managed!" And it'll go blank. If it goes all blank, which must be the way that Fred & George found it, then where did they get the magic words to make it work? Is there a general, "Marauder's Map" entry in the spell books? 

  Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 19:21:02 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael-pou)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:21:02 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others
References: <3.0.6.32.20010222004620.007aed90@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <OE50KWCeS9hplfjlLQh0000afe7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12749

Hello to you too, and welcome!

Joanne Collins wrote: "The first question is, when one puts SHIP in one's header, should that be the same for slash or non-slash ships? For example, the same for Harry/Ron and Harry/Hermione (or whoever)."

Theoretically, 'ship' goes as a shortcut for 'relationship' of any kind. You might, however, find that there are some people here (not many) who are less than tolerant towards gay ships.

Joanne Collins wrote: "Second question, does this list allow fan fiction to be posted or is it discussion only?"

This list is not for fanfic, but you are very welcome to join us over at HP_FanFiction (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction) and HP4ever (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp4ever). There are also the theme specific lists - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise. Read the description of those before you join.


One more comment though - without damaging the welcome in any way, you might find that being on this list before reading all four books is both frustrating and damaging your first read experience. you might be better off reading the books first, and then coming back to the list.

see you around, yael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 20:08:13 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:08:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Marauders' Map
In-Reply-To: <013101c09c39$157a9d40$6114a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <20010221200813.11032.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12750


--- Doreen <nera at rconnect.com> wrote:
>   While I understand the squib/wand part of your
> answer, there are still the magic words, "I solemnly
> swear that I am up to no good." and, "Mischief
> managed". How did Fred & George know the magic
> words? 
>   Fred tells Harry, "Just tap it again and say,
> "Mischief managed!" And it'll go blank. If it goes
> all blank, which must be the way that Fred & George
> found it, then where did they get the magic words to
> make it work? Is there a general, "Marauder's Map"
> entry in the spell books? 
> 
>   Doreen
> 
> 
I wonder if MWPP didn't tell Fred and George how to
work the map. When Snape, having confiscated it from
Harry, tries to activate the map, he eventually gets
some insults out of MWPP. Since Fred and George are
boys after the original Marauders' own hearts, I can
easily imagine the Weasely twins getting something
more useful out of the map than just insults.

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Feb 21 20:32:49 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:32:49 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart musings
In-Reply-To: <970qk3+ruka@eGroups.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010222004939.007ae420@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221122724.02aea580@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12751

At 04:33 PM 2/21/01 +0000, absinthe at mad.scientist.com wrote:
>Hmm. We know that Lockhart used the experiences of others in his
>books, but you have a point. It wouldn't be surprizing if someone else
>penned the books and was "memory charmed" afterward.

I've always hoped that Dumbledore spent the summer between Harry's
2nd and 3rd year going around Europe and restoring the memories of
Lockhart's victims.

BTW, I was watching _A Passage to India_ the other day, and it
struck me who would be *perfect* as Lockhart, and I can't believe
I didn't think of him before: Nigel Havers!  He has that "pretty" look
(assuming he hasn't changed much since _Passage_ -- anybody seen
him in something recent?), and he can play a real slimeball when he
wants to.



                                                 -- Dave




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Feb 21 20:39:19 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:39:19 -0000
Subject: Lockhart musings--Nigel Havers
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221122724.02aea580@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <97191n+het5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12752

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> 
> BTW, I was watching _A Passage to India_ the other day, and it
> struck me who would be *perfect* as Lockhart, and I can't believe
> I didn't think of him before: Nigel Havers!  He has that "pretty" 
look
> (assuming he hasn't changed much since _Passage_ -- anybody seen
> him in something recent?), and he can play a real slimeball when he
> wants to.
> 
> 
Nigel Havers has always been my pick for Lockhart. He's in his late 
40s and he has that snobbish Lockhart air about him.
Here's a BBC.co interview with and pics of him.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/interview_archive/nigel_havers.shtml

:-)Milz




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 21:00:24 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:00:24 -0000
Subject: Nigel Havers - interview
In-Reply-To: <97191n+het5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <971a98+ihsd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12753

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> > 
> > BTW, I was watching _A Passage to India_ the other day, and it
> > struck me who would be *perfect* as Lockhart, and I can't believe
> > I didn't think of him before: Nigel Havers!  He has that "pretty" 
> look
> > (assuming he hasn't changed much since _Passage_ -- anybody seen
> > him in something recent?), and he can play a real slimeball when 
he
> > wants to.
> > 
> > 
> Nigel Havers has always been my pick for Lockhart. He's in his late 
> 40s and he has that snobbish Lockhart air about him.
> Here's a BBC.co interview with and pics of him.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/interview_archive/nigel_havers.shtml
> 
> :-)Milz

And part of the interview went:

Q: How else do you relax apart from running? 
H: I garden and read, and potter round the house - I'm a
great potterer. 

Is that cool or what?!

Naama




From lmrourke at snet.net  Wed Feb 21 21:12:53 2001
From: lmrourke at snet.net (Lisa Rourke)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:12:53 -0500
Subject: Subject: Scabbers! Day on HP Calendar
Message-ID: <002001c09c4b$2c57b680$4e1e3ccc@KRASS.KRASS_WH>

No: HPFGUIDX 12754

Rats actually have 5 "fingers" on the front as well as back feet.  My
children have pet rats and we just looked at them to make sure.  The "thumb"
part on the front paws is rather small though and hardly noticeable.  So the
calendar picture is definitely wrong.  The picture should show a rat with 3
long "fingers" and a very tiny "thumb" because Pettigrew cut off his index
finger.  And I happen to think that rats are kinda cute ^_^ (but obviously
NOT Pettigrew).

Lisa (who's not obsessed or picky either)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 22:09:20 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:09:20 -0000
Subject: muggles, the term/trademark law (wandering OT)
In-Reply-To: <9713a6+r44u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <971eag+tujo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12755

Heidi, Head Witch of IP Law, wrote:

> No, you can trademark a  common "dictionary" word for goods & 
> services, especially if the word, as applied to the goods, is 
> arbitrary. It's like using the term APPLE for computers or RIO for 
> MP3 players - they're regular words, but mean nothing, other than 
the 
> brand name of the goods themselves. 

Gotcha.  But you can't then simply tell someone who produces, say, 
records, that they can't use the brand name Apple for *their* product. 
 Right?  (Sad to say, Apple Corps is now defunct as a record producer, 
so the point in this case is moot.)  I gather the rules have something 
to do with how closely related the products are?

Amy Z




From Allyse at my-deja.com  Wed Feb 21 22:18:24 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:18:24 -0000
Subject: The Widow of Kent?
Message-ID: <971erg+f20l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12756

I'm a bit nervous, y'know, posting a technically *on-topic* question. 
It might not be allowed. :)

Anyway, I was enjoying Jim Dale's CoS while folding laundry <g> when 
Nearly Headless Nick referred to the "Wailing Widow" who came all the 
way from Kent. I can't help thinking that this ties in to English 
history somehow, and now it's driving me insane! A quick look at the 
Lexicon and its excellent search engine didn't help. Will someone who 
is not a decade beyond history classes please clarify? :)

Thanks,

Allyse




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 21 22:51:47 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:51:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Marauders' Map
References: <97100v+ut5e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A944683.1F11F667@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12757

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> Being a squib, Filch wouldn't have been able to figure the map out; to
> activate the map you need to use a wand, and to use a wand, you need
> to have magical powers.

And the map had a "programmed" response to a magical "assault" such as
Snape attempted; presumably if people with the *ahem* right
intentions--i.e., using the map for its intended purposes--came along
and asked it what it did, it would tell them how to use it. It's magic,
it could tell.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Feb 21 23:10:35 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:10:35 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My birthday party
In-Reply-To: <6388C84E8E@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEFEDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12758

What great friends you have, Rachel!  They sound like such fun... thoughtful
too.  You are lucky!

SML

-----Original Message-----
From: Rachel Bray [mailto:bray.262 at osu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 6:38 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My birthday party


I turned 31 last Halloween and my friends threw me a Harry Potter
surprise party.  Everyone showed up in black robes, magic wands,
etc.  There were Every Flavor Beans (Jelly Bellies), Wizard
crackers (colored cellophane wrapped around little prizes), the Fat
Lady portrait on the front door that everyone had to give a password
in order to get in (it was Dizz...my Girl Scout camp counsellor
name), gummy worms, Hogwarts posters on the wall (they ended
up being a gift afterwards), a white owl with a copy of the party
invitation clutched in her talons sitting on the mantel (also a gift
afterwards), the cake was in the shape of a castle, they suspended
a broom from the ceiling with fishing wire so it looked like it was
hovering and all the gifts people brought were Harry Potter related.
There was a Sorting Hat sitting in the back corner on a stool (we
ended up playing a really weird version of Truth or Dare with it....I'm
sure the neighbors are still talking about it)  I was sooooo
flabbergasted.  It was hilarious to see all my adult friends dressed
in black robes, especially the ones who hadn't read the books.
One of them brought their baby and her "costume" was a pillow
case....she was a house elf.

Ah, the benefits of having your birthday on Halloween.  Your friends
don't feel strange running around town dressed up as wizards and
witches for your birthday party.
Rachel Bray

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"


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From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Feb 21 23:33:14 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:33:14 -0000
Subject: The twins and the Marauders' Map
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010221213930.00b0fae0@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <971j7q+gep4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12759

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Katie Kearns <katie at v...> wrote:
> At 05:37 PM 2/21/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> >I would like to know how Fred & George knew how to use the map...
> >Why could Filch not figure out how to use the map?
> >Surely, if the map came complete with instructions, Filch could 
have
> >used it.
> >
> >Doreen from cold, cold Iowa
> 
> Imagination, stubbornness, and lots of free time? ;)
> 
> -Katie

Plus, Filch is a squib, so he's probably not too swift when it comes 
to figuring out anything magical, despite the time he's been at HW.  
I think this also attests to the twins' magical skill and smarts.  
(Unless someone we don't know about taught them how to use the map.)  
I think that all the Weasleys are quite talented wizards; the twins 
are just not such scholarly students like Percy, they're more 
interested in pranks...

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Feb 21 23:50:15 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:50:15 -0000
Subject: My birthday party
In-Reply-To: <6388C84E8E@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <971k7n+7ocq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12760

> Rachel wrote:
> I turned 31 last Halloween and my friends threw me a Harry Potter 
> surprise party.  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Fantastic!  I'm a creature of Halloween, too.  I turned 32.  My time 
of birth is 11:09pm, what's yours? 

<>
> Rachel:
> It was hilarious to see all my adult friends dressed 
> in black robes, especially the ones who hadn't read the books.  
> One of them brought their baby and her "costume" was a pillow 
> case....she was a house elf. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Aw, that's too cute! 

> Rachel: 
> Ah, the benefits of having your birthday on Halloween.  Your 
friends don't feel strange running around town dressed up as wizards 
and witches for your birthday party.<<<<<<<<<<<<

That's so great.  What a memorable birthday.  I've always thought, if 
you have to have your birthday on a holiday, what better one than 
Halloween!  I haven't done so much in recent years, but as a kid, it 
was always great fun.

Kelley





From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Feb 21 23:48:21 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:48:21 -0000
Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others
Message-ID: <003d01c09c60$d26e2080$435a063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12761


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michelle Apostolides" <michelleapostolides at lineone.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 21 February 2001 18:40
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett &
others


> > Michelle wrote re: Kenneth Branagh as Lupin:
> >
> > >Yuck - I was watching him In Fortunes of War again the other day.
How
> > >much of a luvvie is he ?
> >
> > I think he'd be very good.
> Well we won't have to argue about that now will we ?
> > >Jeremy Irons or the like will do very
> > >nicely thank you. Someone understated.
> >
> > Yes, that could be right, too. Though Irons is a little older than I
> > picture Lupin. I see him as a little younger than Snape. Though of
> course
> > this could be incorrect.
>
> > >As for Lily and James, we need to
> > >see just how much page time they get in the next three books before
> > >condemning them to the awful fate of some popular actor/actress who
> >over  eggs the pudding.
>
> > Why would a popular actor/actress be an awful fate? It really
depends
> on
> > the acting ability, not the popularity, IMO.
> Because if they are too popular then they may not take the part
> seriously enough. Not a problem with the two actors who have been
cast.
>
> > And what does over eggs the pudding mean?
> Over acts.
>
> > As for James, I would love to see Samuel West in the role. He's one
of
> my
> > favourite British actors, probably best known for being in
Carrington
> with
> > Emma Thompson and the Hornblower movie The Frogs & The Lobsters.
> Ohh yes. Very good. Very good looking too.
>
> > Joanne, who for some strange reason sees James Potter as having dark
> blonde
> > hair, even though Harry's is brown.
> Every one has their own mind's eye.
>
>
> Michelle
>




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Feb 21 23:48:52 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:48:52 -0000
Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Casting couch - James and Lily have been cast (?)
Message-ID: <004301c09c60$e10887c0$435a063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 12762


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michelle Apostolides" <michelleapostolides at lineone.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 21 February 2001 18:31
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Casting couch - James and Lily have been
cast (?)


>
>
> > Hmmm, maybe it is just me, but I strongly disagree with that man as
> James.
> > Maybe it is because the picture is old, but I don't know.  Lily is
not
> so
> > bad.  She does look semi-how I pictured her, but they have to make
her
> eyes
> > more green, they are too blue-green.  Also, I always thought that
when
> Harry
> > sees them in the Mirror of Erised, he sees them as they were before
> they
> > died, not as they would be now.  So I can see Geraldine playing
> someone
> > younger but I don't see Adrian as playing a young guy.
>
> I can assure you that they have made the perfect choices for both
these
> parts. Any physical problems can be overcome with make up and contact
> lenses. They are both superb actors and will really bring depth to
their
> respective characters once we really see them in action. My thanks go
to
> FFA who made my day with news of such well thought out casting.
>
> Oh yeah, and id I happen to mention that AR is EXTREMELY sexy ?
>
> Michelle
>




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Feb 21 23:56:43 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:56:43 -0000
Subject: The Brat I Enabled (filk)
In-Reply-To: <97131h+4i9c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <971kjr+u9p3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12763

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> The Brat I Enabled 
> 
> Dedicated to Angela Boyko
> 
> (To the tune of Cat in the Cradle)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 
Outstanding, Caius!  I laughed the whole way through.  Just when I 
think you can't top yourself, you always manage to do it again...

Well done!

Kelley -- still laughing... 




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Thu Feb 22 00:07:38 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:07:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville
Message-ID: <20010222000738.B7BB136F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12764

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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Thu Feb 22 00:20:55 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:20:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lack of human affection in books
Message-ID: <20010222002055.851762747@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12765

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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Thu Feb 22 00:28:05 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:28:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Little Women
Message-ID: <20010222002805.5396F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12766

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From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Feb 22 00:43:28 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:43:28 -0000
Subject: Questions about the Stouffer stuff..(warning-- kind of long)
Message-ID: <971nbg+dnrc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12767

Heidi, I am a bit confused about some of this Stouffer stuff, and if 
my questions are included in the FAQ, just say so, and I'll just wait 
for that.  I recently went to the Stouffer site again, and reread her 
list of similarities between her work and Rowling's.  What I don't 
understand is, is the term 'muggle' the linchpin, so to speak, of her 
case against JKR?  What I had assumed was that her entire list of 
similarities was what her case was comprised of.  While many of these 
instances of similarity can be found in other literary works, of 
course, I was under the impression that her problem is that all these 
similarities are both found in both their works.  I'm tempted to 
write this woman to correct a number of her inaccuracies in 
her 'similar points' list, such as 'crystal goblet', 'governor
(?)/friar', 'muggles rejoicing', etc., though I'd be very surprised 
if someone hasn't already done this.  From the 'Intro' to her books 
that's found on her site, IIRC, nothing in this has anything in 
common with the 'similarities' list (aside from the word 'muggles', 
right?).  It sounds like an -entirely- different work (though I 
didn't reread it again this last time I went there, but several 
months back when the list was discussing it).  Personally, I had 
never heard of her work, and if her intro from her site would be in 
any way similar to what the blurb on the dust jacket of her book 
would be, I cannot see any reasonable way someone might confuse the 
two works.  I'm trying to be unbiased in this post, but I have to 
say, if I just happened upon her site and read that intro, I would 
have no interest in reading her book.  Just has no appeal to me.  
Stouffer claims there was demand for her book; wouldn't it be 
available in public libraries?  I've not tried looking, but is there 
some reason it would not be available?  Sorry for such a long post 
everyone...

Kelley   




From gerstin at pacbell.net  Thu Feb 22 01:28:15 2001
From: gerstin at pacbell.net (gerstin at pacbell.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:28:15 -0000
Subject: Fudge (as in Cornelius)
Message-ID: <971pvf+uc14@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12768

Hi folks-
I've been lurking for a couple weeks now, and have decided to throw
out a question that occurred to me just yesterday. I've been
re-reading (well, re-listening, actually -- I love Jim Dale!) PoA,
and it struck me as odd that Cornelius Fudge just so happened to be
waiting outside the Leaky Cauldron (at presumably something like 3 in 
the morning, based on how quickly dawn arrives) just in time to meet up 
with Harry. Am I forgetting something that comes later to explain this? 
Or do any of you folks have theories about this?
Thanks!

-Ed Gerstin





From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Feb 22 01:40:05 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:40:05 -0500
Subject: Jim Dale wins Grammy for Reading GoF
In-Reply-To: <971pvf+uc14@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010221203858.05321c30@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12769

At 01:28 AM 02/22/2001 +0000, gerstin at pacbell.net wrote:
>  (well, re-listening, actually -- I love Jim Dale!)

Speaking of Mr. Dale, he just won a Grammy for his reading of Goblet of Fire:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_18_archive.html#2473783


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Feb 22 01:38:01 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:38:01 -0500
Subject: just discovered a great fanart site
References: <971nbg+dnrc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A946D79.2ABFBE58@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12770

Check it out at http://pages.nyu.edu/~amw243/gallery_character.html -
are any of this group's listies featured up there? I haven't had a
chance to look thru everything yet (but they do have some amazing
Siriuses there, carole!)




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 01:58:02 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:58:02 EST
Subject: Marauders' Map
Message-ID: <c2.76ada9f.27c5cc2a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12771

I love the way Ms. Rowling's books bring out the creativity in people!

Here's another example:

http://www.maraudersmap.4t.com/map.htm?

Whether or not it's accurate, (and I'm not at all sure, myself), it's lots of 
fun!

I was referred to this website from the Young Adult Books section of About.Com

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From rboswell at mediaone.net  Thu Feb 22 02:18:36 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:18:36 -0500
Subject: Possible Endings
Message-ID: <036f01c09c75$cb46dee0$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12772

Hi!  

    I was just reading over a JKR chat transcript, and noticed a few possible endings of the seventh book that she has hinted to.  Personally, if either of these endings turn out true, I will scream like bloody murder...it will be the scream heard across whole world.  I really hope JKR is more creative...::sigh::

Hints:

1) A member of the trio will become a Hogwarts professor, but not the one you most expect.
    Well, DUH, that means Hermione is out of the question because she's who we'd most expect.  That leaves Harry and Ron.  I couldn't see Ron as a professor at all, he's far to impulsive. If Harry becomes a professor it will be tremendously corny.  It will be moreso corny if he becomes the DADA teacher, seeing as that position is empty all the time. ::grimace::

2) When asked the question of possible post-Hogwarts books about Harry's life, JRK replied "You seem pretty confident he's not going to die"
    Harry...dead?!? Naw...that's way too typical.  The hero sacrifices himself in the end for a greater cause...far too cliche.  But if it happens anyways...::cringe::.

    Any thoughts?

~Becca~



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Feb 22 03:03:22 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:03:22 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible Endings
In-Reply-To: <036f01c09c75$cb46dee0$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221185129.03439660@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12773

(I'll address the second hint first so as to put my "possible spoiler"
  at the bottom...)

At 09:18 PM 2/21/01 -0500, Rebecca Boswell wrote:
>2) When asked the question of possible post-Hogwarts books about Harry's 
>life, JRK replied "You seem pretty confident he's not going to die"
>     Harry...dead?!? Naw...that's way too typical.  The hero sacrifices 
> himself in the end for a greater cause...far too cliche.  But if it 
> happens anyways...::cringe::.

Well, obviously, if he dies he can't be DADA master.  (Unless he's a ghost.)

My hope is that JKR just said that to keep up our anxiety.

>1) A member of the trio will become a Hogwarts professor, but not the one 
>you most expect.
>     Well, DUH, that means Hermione is out of the question because she's 
> who we'd most expect.  That leaves Harry and Ron.  I couldn't see Ron as 
> a professor at all, he's far to impulsive. If Harry becomes a professor 
> it will be tremendously corny.  It will be moreso corny if he becomes the 
> DADA teacher, seeing as that position is empty all the time. ::grimace::

But not nearly as corny as Harry spending his life a pro-Quidditch player.
(And ending up like Bagman??   Arugh!)

My idea is that there really *is* a jinx on the DADA post and that Harry
will be the one who finally lifts it... But Harry will not be the DADA teacher
himself.  He will be Headmaster of Hogwarts, Hermione will be Minister of
Magic, Ron will be an Auror, and DADA will be taught by.............
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
........ Neville Longbottom!   (Anything will be possible once the curse on his
memory is lifted, and this would of course be the final poetic justice: 
Neville's
revenge on Snape!)



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Feb 22 04:43:49 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:43:49 -0800
Subject: JK Rowling on Harry Potter Five (Plucked from the newsgroup)
In-Reply-To: <c2.76ada9f.27c5cc2a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221204202.029ed2d0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12774

The following is a post from alt.fan.harry-potter of some hints from
Jo on the next book:

------ FORWARDED MESSAGE -----
Subject: JK Rowling on Harry Potter Five
From: Rames <rames at redboerse.de>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.harry-potter

What will happen in "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix"?

All original JKR quotes:

"In book 5, we go into a whole new area, physically, an area
you've never seen before, a magical world" (1)

"What's very important for me is when Dumbledore says that you
have to choose between what is right and what is easy. This is
the setup for the next three books. All of them are going to have
to choose, because what is easy is often not right." (1)

"You'll be seeing Mrs. [Arabella] Figg in book five, and you'll
find out all about her." (2)

Harry will see him [the real 'Mad-Eye' Moody] in book five. (2)

Why do some wizards/witches become ghosts and others don't?
"You will find out much more about that in book five." (3)

There will be a female Defense Against The Dark Arts teacher. (3)

"You see Lupin in Book Five. Yes you see a lot of old
characters in Book Five." (4)

Book five will be scary. Harry finds out a lot of things he
hasn't stumbled across so far. (4)

"The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming
with them that people might not expect." (5)

"Ginny Weasley [little sister to Harry's best friend, Ron]
will play more of a role in Book Five." (5)

"In book five [Harry] has to examine exactly what death
means, in even closer ways." (6)


(1) Entertainment Weekly Interview, September 2000
(2) Barnesandnoble.com Chat, October 2000
(3) America Online Chat, October 2000
(4) BBC Interview, Fall 2000
(5) Philadelphia Inquirer Story, November 2000
(6) RadioCBC 'This Morning' Interview, October 2000

Rames

--
The Harry Potter Galleries
http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/



                                                 -- Dave




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 05:03:15 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:03:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville
Message-ID: <F160SAQV6uPDVniSnRM00019a99@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12775


Ah, I see.  Won't it be funny if he suddenly become a potions genius?  Maybe 
even a new Professor when he graduates?

After I wrrote the last message I began to think about Neville's 
envolvement.  Was the trio supposed to be a foursome originally?  Afterall, 
Neville did began the journey to the actual Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone 
with H, H, and R.  He's even on the bookmark reenactment...

Maybe JKR disagreed with her originaly casting of him as one of the main 
characters.  I just remember thinking when I started reading COS that there 
was less of Neville then I expected.

Hmmpht, Oh well, I guess will never know.

Signe
The Anti-Grammy

Star wrote:

>Well I know that Neville did stand up for himself once in game and to the 
>rio but I was more thinking along the lines of standing up to Snape so my 
>bubble hasn yet to be burst :) I want Neville to really surprise everyone 
>by the end of the book and though he did surprise me a bite turning around 
>to Draco and telling him that he was worth more then him or whatever, you 
>know what I'm talking about I hope, but he did it without much confidence 
>and I doubt he would have done so without others near by like Ron and 
>Hermione.
>~Star~ who is begining to become attached to Neville
>
>
>"Signe Cluiss" <signe_weasley at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >Hate to burst your bubble, but it already happened. Remember how he 
>won the
> >House Cup for Gryffindor in PS/SS? He stood up to Harry, Hermione, 
>and Ron.
> > I think this task is more difficult- to stand up to your friends, 
>rather
> >than your enemies.
> >Someone earlier mentioned that Neville might be the Scabbers of the 
>group.
> >This is a good theory, seeing as he is the weak one of the Gryffindors, 
>but
> >I disagree. J.K.Rowling has made the Scooby-Doo group out of 
>3, not 4.
> >Maybe originally she was going with 4, but after PS/SS, Neville was 
>excluded
> >more and more
> >Signe<BR>
> >Star wrote:
>;Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. What I would really like to see 
>is
> >>Neville overcoming his fears and standing up for himself. I 
>think the only reason he's so clumsy and doesn't have much power is b/c 
>he's afraid of the
>power due to what happened to his parents and feels so insecure and unsure
> >>of himself. If he would get over his fears and stand up for 
>himself I
> >>think that he'd have all he needed to become a great wizard, I think 
>that's
> >>why he was put into Gryffindor, he's insecure and afraid now but in 
>the end
>;I think that he'll make everyone proud.
>;~Star~
>
>_____________________________________________________________
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From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Feb 22 06:26:05 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:26:05 -0000
Subject: Fanart: just discovered a great fanart site/Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <3A946D79.2ABFBE58@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <972bdt+8lff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12776

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> Check it out at 
http://pages.nyu.edu/~amw243/gallery_character.html -
> are any of this group's listies featured up there? I haven't had a
> chance to look thru everything yet (but they do have some amazing
> Siriuses there, carole!)

------------------------------
Oh, hey, Diagon Alley. That's a great site. The first HP fanfic site 
I ever saw. And according to the webmom, I'll be archived there next 
month..or eventually. (Eeew, shameless plug for me!) It's a great 
resource if ff.net is ever down...Anyway, a lot of the art on that 
page comes from Dark Cyradis' site, "The Illustrated Harry Potter."
 
http://www.geocities.com/darkcyradis/characters.html

 She draws amazing Harry Potter art. Carole will like her Sirius, I 
think. :) I like her Draco. And I think she's an H/H shipper. <vbeg> 
Just a side note. 

Her sister draws fanart for fanfics, which are great too. And her 
page features, oh dear...Ron in leather, and Harry in...motorcycle 
gloves? *bangs head on the ground about things that Should Never Be.* 
And she did a haunting "cover" for GoF that features the scene with 
Harry tied to Voldie's father's grave.

http://www.geocities.com/darkcyradis/gallery1-2.html

Enjoy.

Cassie






From a.gisius at chello.nl  Thu Feb 22 08:27:26 2001
From: a.gisius at chello.nl (Nan Gisius)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:27:26 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville
References: <F160SAQV6uPDVniSnRM00019a99@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ca01c09ca9$49eabae0$0100a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12777

It strikes me taht there seem to be lots of times that the lifes of Harry and his father "connect" .... and there seems some similarities too .... as the friendship between him, Hermione, Ron and Neville resembles the friendship of James, Sirius, Lupin and Peter .........

But: as Dumbledore explains to Harry: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." 

It seems to me that Neville allready showed that he might play a very different role in Harry's future than Peter did in his fathers ..... 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Signe Cluiss 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 6:03 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville



  Ah, I see.  Won't it be funny if he suddenly become a potions genius?  Maybe 
  even a new Professor when he graduates?

  After I wrrote the last message I began to think about Neville's 
  envolvement.  Was the trio supposed to be a foursome originally?  Afterall, 
  Neville did began the journey to the actual Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone 
  with H, H, and R.  He's even on the bookmark reenactment...

  Maybe JKR disagreed with her originaly casting of him as one of the main 
  characters.  I just remember thinking when I started reading COS that there 
  was less of Neville then I expected.

  Hmmpht, Oh well, I guess will never know.

  Signe
  The Anti-Grammy

  Star wrote:

  >Well I know that Neville did stand up for himself once in game and to the 
  >rio but I was more thinking along the lines of standing up to Snape so my 
  >bubble hasn yet to be burst :) I want Neville to really surprise everyone 
  >by the end of the book and though he did surprise me a bite turning around 
  >to Draco and telling him that he was worth more then him or whatever, you 
  >know what I'm talking about I hope, but he did it without much confidence 
  >and I doubt he would have done so without others near by like Ron and 
  >Hermione.
  >~Star~ who is begining to become attached to Neville
  >
  >
  >"Signe Cluiss" <signe_weasley at hotmail.com>
  > > wrote:
  > >Hate to burst your bubble, but it already happened. Remember how he 
  >won the
  > >House Cup for Gryffindor in PS/SS? He stood up to Harry, Hermione, 
  >and Ron.
  > > I think this task is more difficult- to stand up to your friends, 
  >rather
  > >than your enemies.
  > >Someone earlier mentioned that Neville might be the Scabbers of the 
  >group.
  > >This is a good theory, seeing as he is the weak one of the Gryffindors, 
  >but
  > >I disagree. J.K.Rowling has made the Scooby-Doo group out of 
  >3, not 4.
  > >Maybe originally she was going with 4, but after PS/SS, Neville was 
  >excluded
  > >more and more
  > >Signe<BR>
  > >Star wrote:
  >;Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. What I would really like to see 
  >is
  > >>Neville overcoming his fears and standing up for himself. I 
  >think the only reason he's so clumsy and doesn't have much power is b/c 
  >he's afraid of the
  >power due to what happened to his parents and feels so insecure and unsure
  > >>of himself. If he would get over his fears and stand up for 
  >himself I
  > >>think that he'd have all he needed to become a great wizard, I think 
  >that's
  > >>why he was put into Gryffindor, he's insecure and afraid now but in 
  >the end
  >;I think that he'll make everyone proud.
  >;~Star~
  >
  >_____________________________________________________________
  >Sign up for a Free, Web-Based email account at: <http://wicca.net.com>
  >  The Home of Wicca on the Web.

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From a.gisius at chello.nl  Thu Feb 22 08:31:50 2001
From: a.gisius at chello.nl (Nan Gisius)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:31:50 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge (as in Cornelius)
References: <971pvf+uc14@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d801c09ca9$e6e5cd80$0100a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12778

Don't they just "know"??? Like Harry got the letter from the ministry extremely short after Doby did some magic in Privet drive??? (SoC). 

I don't want to spoil the fun for ppl that haven't finished reading GoF ... but there is a hint there on how they can know ... there is some things done to Privet Drive to protect Harry ......
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: gerstin at pacbell.net 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 2:28 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge (as in Cornelius)


  Hi folks-
  I've been lurking for a couple weeks now, and have decided to throw
  out a question that occurred to me just yesterday. I've been
  re-reading (well, re-listening, actually -- I love Jim Dale!) PoA,
  and it struck me as odd that Cornelius Fudge just so happened to be
  waiting outside the Leaky Cauldron (at presumably something like 3 in 
  the morning, based on how quickly dawn arrives) just in time to meet up 
  with Harry. Am I forgetting something that comes later to explain this? 
  Or do any of you folks have theories about this?
  Thanks!

  -Ed Gerstin



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 

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From SHENmagic at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 08:57:19 2001
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 03:57:19 EST
Subject: Weasleys and Code words to Marauders Map
Message-ID: <3e.7c6a725.27c62e6f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12779


In a message dated 2/21/01 4:27:33 PM, Anne <old_wych at yahoo.com> writes:

>Since Fred and George are
>boys after the original Marauders' own hearts, I can
>easily imagine the Weasely twins getting something
>more useful out of the map than just insults.
>
>Ooh- I like that Anne. I'd envisioned the one of twins accidentally saying 
the right opening words, much as Harry stumbled upon the passwords "Cockroach 
Cluster" when he was trying to reach Professor Dumbledore's office. In 
current state of brain-fog, I'm trying to remember if that was in GoF or PoA.
Aylihael, WAY past bedtime

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit

there."

- Will Rogers





From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Thu Feb 22 13:01:10 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:01:10 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anyone know these HP-related books?
References: <20010221135323.6468.qmail@web215.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c09ccf$87b4a4a0$442c07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12780

Thanks, all of you, you're were a wonderful help as always! There are even
more of those "as long as HP is in the title" book out on the german market,
and most of them are total crap. The only good one is a lexicon that has
lots of background information. It's similar to Steve's site, but while his
site is most accurate with timetables and Hogwarts details, this book
concentrates on background of mythological creatures and other RL stuff used
in the books. The rest is, to say it the hard way, bullshit.

> However, if you can't get it from a
> local library, I'd be happy to lend mine. (no sense
> buying it if you don't need to)
> Sheryll

Thanks for the offer, Sheryll, but I live in Germany and the postage alone
would probably cost more than the book itself. But I'll look for it in the
library and if not - well, I won't cry over it.

If I read it I can always use it as a bad example of merchandies and
money-making <eg>

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Thu Feb 22 13:10:08 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:10:08 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JK Rowling on Harry Potter Five (Plucked from the newsgroup)
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221204202.029ed2d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c09cd1$6a223ae0$542d07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12781

Oh gawd, this sounds like a real nail-chewer. I'm getting exited and nervous
just reading all the little spoilers.

And more Lupin! I mean, it was pretty clear since Sirius went to fetch him,
but still! But the "more Dursley stuff" makes me etchy - I always skip the
first chapter in the books because they make me so uneasy. Have you punched
a Dursley on the nose today? <g>

Thanks Dave!

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 13:23:07 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:23:07 -0000
Subject: Twins/map - Fudge - Disorientation
Message-ID: <9733rr+ktlj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12782

Anne wrote:

>Since Fred and George are
>boys after the original Marauders' own hearts, I can
>easily imagine the Weasely twins getting something
>more useful out of the map than just insults.

Aylihael wrote:

>Ooh- I like that Anne. I'd envisioned the one of twins accidentally 
>saying the right opening words, much as Harry stumbled upon the 
>passwords "Cockroach Cluster" when he was trying to reach Professor 
>Dumbledore's office. In 
>current state of brain-fog, I'm trying to remember if that was in GoF 
>or PoA.

GoF.  I like the idea that the Map responded to the twins' various 
attempts to figure it out by giving them instructions.  And also to 
their intent--can't you see the Marauders making the map able to sense 
when troublemakers as bad as themselves are trying to use it?  I love 
it!  It would be too improbable that F & G would hit on the exact 
words to open and close it--much harder than Harry's admittedly lucky 
guess about Dumbledore's password.  At least he knew a previous one; 
put that together with Dumbledore's sweet tooth, which has been 
hinted at, and guessing kinds of sweets is not too much of a leap.

BTW, I've been going along thinking that sherbet lemon IS a lemon 
drop, since that's how it got "translated" in book 2 (? brain-fog 
here too--I think it was 2).  But it isn't, is it?

Fudge:  I don't think he just happened to be at the Leaky Cauldron, 
but I do wonder if he knew Harry was on the Knight Bus, and/or when in 
the course of the night the MOM found out where Harry was.  They 
definitely lost track of him at some point, or at least knew he was 
outside his usual circle of protection, because they were worried.  
(As well they should have been--Sirius WAS 50 feet from him.  Now how 
did THAT happen?  Had Sirius been lurking as close as possible to 4 
Privet Drive for hours, or did he just happen to get to Little 
Whinging during the 10 minutes Harry was between the house and the 
Bus?  Gotta be the former.)

Maybe not the moment he got onto the Knight Bus, but sometime in the 
night, I think the MOM knew he was on it, knew where he was headed 
(both through magic o' course <g>), and relaxed.  As much as Fudge 
ever relaxes.

Did anyone else feel strange reading the beginning of PoA?  I have 
heard people say they didn't like the first chapter of GoF; I wonder i 
f what they're reacting to is a disorientation caused by the almost 
unheard-of shift out of Harry's POV (and even, very briefly, into 
another character's--Frank's--which I don't think ever happens 
elsewhere in the books).  You begin that first chapter and think, 
"Hey!  Where's our Harry?"  In my case with the first chapters of PoA, 
I felt a sense of disorientation at the prospect that Harry really 
wasn't going to end up at Hogwarts.  When he was sitting in Magnolia 
Crescent, I thought (silly me) that he might really spend the book on 
the run.  I think I was influenced by the cover (him & unknown girl on 
hippogriff--well, it doesn't LOOK like Hermione!) and the title, and 
had the idea that from the beginning he was going to head to Azkaban, 
maybe to rescue someone.  I felt relieved and grounded once more when 
he got to Diagon Alley, and especially when he met up with R & H.  
Amazing what a small shift it takes for an author to give you a whole 
new feeling.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------
  "Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives!" Harry
said furiously.  "Look at the Dursleys!"
  "Excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore.
                          --HP and the Goblet of Fire 
-------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 13:34:19 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:34:19 -0000
Subject: Jim Dale wins Grammy for Reading GoF
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010221203858.05321c30@brain-stream.com>
Message-ID: <9734gr+hmn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12783

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" <bkdelong at p...> wrote:

> Speaking of Mr. Dale, he just won a Grammy for his reading of Goblet 
of Fire:
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_18_archive.html#2473783

The score stands at Voldemort (=Eminem) 2, Harry 1.

Good work on the Grammys' part.  Of course, these are the people who 
only awarded Bob Dylan one prize in the first 27 years of his 
career, so I can't take their judgment too seriously.  

My only complaint re: Dale, however, is that it was awarded best 
spoken-word album *for children.*  Excuse me?  

;-)
Amy Z
Technically a grown-up

----------------------------------------------
Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always 
been about being dead, but none of the other 
ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it.
                 --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------




From john at walton.to  Thu Feb 22 13:44:57 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:44:57 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Jim Dale wins Grammy for Reading GoF
In-Reply-To: <9734gr+hmn6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6BAC859.C628%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 12784

Amy Z quoth:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" <bkdelong at p...> wrote:
> 
>> Speaking of Mr. Dale, he just won a Grammy for his reading of Goblet
> of Fire:
>> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_18_archive.html#2473783
> 
> The score stands at Voldemort (=Eminem) 2, Harry 1.
> 
> Good work on the Grammys' part.  Of course, these are the people who
> only awarded Bob Dylan one prize in the first 27 years of his
> career, so I can't take their judgment too seriously.

My two cents: If Jim Dale was given an award for ANYTHING to do with his
ghastly readings of the HP books, it just shows how poor the competition is
in childrens' audio. Unless, of course, we're talking Darwin Awards here --
in which case I wholeheartedly support him for any category he's going
for...

As I've stated onlist before, I can't stand his butchery of the mental
voices I created. OTOH, I really like the Stephen Fry versions. Go figure ;)

--John

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Feb 22 13:57:08 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:57:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Jim Dale wins Grammy for Reading GoF
In-Reply-To: <B6BAC859.C628%john@walton.to>
References: <9734gr+hmn6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010222085517.05f63750@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12785

At 01:44 PM 02/22/2001 +0000, John Walton wrote:
>As I've stated onlist before, I can't stand his butchery of the mental
>voices I created. OTOH, I really like the Stephen Fry versions. Go figure ;)

Ah...well there's your problem. I was introduced to the series via Jim Dale 
as were most of my family and friends. When I listened to Steven Fry on 
Boxing Day I was really bored - he mearly read the book while Jim Dale 
*performed* it.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Thu Feb 22 13:49:00 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:49:00 -0500
Subject: FanFic Plug- New Chapter uploaded
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC06BD@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12786

Greetings!
 
FFnet seems to be working this morning, so I'm announcing for those who
might be interested that Chapter 7 of my fic, His Majesty's Secret Service,
is available at this address:
 
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read
<http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=163925>
&storyid=163925
 
Not much plot this time, but some important glimpses into the wonderful
world of the Malfoy's. Hope you are enjoying it. Those of you who don't read
ff, please ignore.
 
Thanks,
 
Gwen



From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 14:01:21 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:01:21 -0000
Subject: Questions about the Stouffer stuff..(warning-- kind of long)
In-Reply-To: <971nbg+dnrc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97363h+o8hb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12787

Just so you know Kelly, a number of us have searched the most remote 
corners of the earth to find ANY existing copy of ANY of Stouffers 
works, or, failing that, hard evidence that these works in fact 
existed in published form. We have come of with nothing. 

I think I can safely say though that one would have an easier time 
snorkling in search of the Loch Ness Monster. I have worked as a 
professional researcher and pride myself on being able to dig up 
anything. Stouffer's Legend of Rah appears to have left not so much as 
a footprint in the publishing world.

Obviously the book must have existed or there would be no case. I 
suspect that Stouffer's Stouffer's works have been self-published-- 
kind fo like when I was twelve and decided to start my own newspaper I 
wrote the whole thing out by hand, photocopied it, and sold 
"subscriptions" door-to-door in my neighborhood. In Stouffer's case, 
it sounds like she took her self-made copies to her local Rite Aid to 
sell. I think technically under the law, once you put anything on 
paper, it is copyrighted and can be defended as such. Hmmm... But this 
is a Trademark case, which I think makes things different. My question 
is: Hasn't anyone noticed that Rowling isn't using "muggles" as a 
trademark? She is using it as a WORD, like turnip or green. I have 
never heard of anyone reserving a word for their exclusive use.

Heidi can say more about this part though. 

Cheers,

Suzanne




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> Heidi, I am a bit confused about some of this Stouffer stuff, and if 
> my questions are included in the FAQ, just say so, and I'll just 
wait 
> for that.  I recently went to the Stouffer site again, and reread 
her 
> list of similarities between her work and Rowling's.  What I don't 
> understand is, is the term 'muggle' the linchpin, so to speak, of 
her 
> case against JKR?  What I had assumed was that her entire list of 
> similarities was what her case was comprised of.  While many of 
these 
> instances of similarity can be found in other literary works, of 
> course, I was under the impression that her problem is that all 
these 
> similarities are both found in both their works.  I'm tempted to 
> write this woman to correct a number of her inaccuracies in 
> her 'similar points' list, such as 'crystal goblet', 'governor
> (?)/friar', 'muggles rejoicing', etc., though I'd be very surprised 
> if someone hasn't already done this.  From the 'Intro' to her books 
> that's found on her site, IIRC, nothing in this has anything in 
> common with the 'similarities' list (aside from the word 'muggles', 
> right?).  It sounds like an -entirely- different work (though I 
> didn't reread it again this last time I went there, but several 
> months back when the list was discussing it).  Personally, I had 
> never heard of her work, and if her intro from her site would be in 
> any way similar to what the blurb on the dust jacket of her book 
> would be, I cannot see any reasonable way someone might confuse the 
> two works.  I'm trying to be unbiased in this post, but I have to 
> say, if I just happened upon her site and read that intro, I would 
> have no interest in reading her book.  Just has no appeal to me.  
> Stouffer claims there was demand for her book; wouldn't it be 
> available in public libraries?  I've not tried looking, but is there 
> some reason it would not be available?  Sorry for such a long post 
> everyone...
> 
> Kelley




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Feb 22 14:16:35 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:16:35 -0000
Subject: Weasleys and Code words to Marauders Map
In-Reply-To: <3e.7c6a725.27c62e6f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <973703+9vje@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12788

re: how did the Weasley's figure out how to work the map

The Weasley twins are tinkerers and experimenters. They're kind of 
like a buddy of mine who, when I have a faucet doing something 
inexplicable, will simply tinker and experiment and figure out how it 
works and why it isn't doing what it should and how to fix it, all 
without ever "learning how." He does that because of experience with 
plenty of mechanical devices over the years and because he just has a 
sense of it. It just makes sense to him. I can do the same thing with 
a computer, having worked on so many of them over the years. When 
things aren't working right, I can just tell what's wrong and pretty 
much know how to fix it almost immediately, although I'd have a hard 
time pointing out all the little clues that led me to that conclusion.

The Weasley twins have that magical sense. When confronted with an 
item like the map, they draw on their collective experience with 
magical items and how they work and how they are created, and they 
can intuit it's function and how to operate it. That also ties into 
my theory of intention as being much more important that exact words. 
We've talked a lot about Latin roots etc. lately, but the point isn't 
the words, it's the intention. The words focus the mind in the right 
direction. The Latin words aren't spoken to be perfect Latin. Very 
likely no one speaks Latin at all in the Wizarding World any more 
than they do in the Muggle World. Latin and Latinate forms are used 
for incantations only, and new variations are invented as necessary 
for new spells. For example, Hermione uses the spell "Mobiliarbus" to 
move a Christmas tree over a foot or so. Now that translates as a 
spell to move a tree. You can't tell me that there is such a spell in 
standard usage--how often would you use it? A witch of Hermione's age 
wouldn't be ABLE to move most trees, they're pretty solidly tied 
down. However, she has learned her magical theory enough to be able 
to choose appropriate Latinate words and thereby focus her mental 
energy correctly to move what needed to be moved. Later, when it was 
Snape's inert body that needed moving, the spell was "Mobilicorpus." 
Same spell, different words for different circumstances. Quite 
likely, if the caster changed the "real" Latin endings into something 
not "correct," it wouldn't make a speck of difference.

The Weasley's understand this kind of thing--the way magical things 
work and magical words are put together and utilized--at a deep 
level, so much so that when they need to activate an object, they can 
construct their own spell words to do so, whether or not they were 
the words the original creator's used. The phrase they use focuses 
the right energy and the map works.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Feb 22 14:20:35 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:20:35 -0000
Subject: The Widow of Kent?
In-Reply-To: <971erg+f20l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97377j+8ij0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12789

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Allyse at m... wrote:

> 
> Anyway, I was enjoying Jim Dale's CoS while folding laundry <g> 

That's exactly what I do! Always have Jim on when I'm doing laundry. 
Don't tell my wife, but I LOVE doing laundry these days!

when 
> Nearly Headless Nick referred to the "Wailing Widow" who came all 
the 
> way from Kent. I can't help thinking that this ties in to English 
> history somehow, and now it's driving me insane! A quick look at 
the 
> Lexicon and its excellent search engine didn't help. Will someone 
who 

My last English history class was about ten years ago, so I don't 
know how much help that will be. I did look in my copy of The Haunted 
Pub Guide, but there weren't any "Wailing Widows" listed in the 
section on Kent. In fact, the pub ghosts in Kent seemed to be male, 
pretty much, and one is a cat. 

I'll keep my eyes open, though, and maybe do a web search or two if I 
get time.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 15:24:10 2001
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (Coleen)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:24:10 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts puzzle
Message-ID: <973auq+b4cj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12790

I don't know if this has been covered but I found a Hogwarts puzzle 
today at Walmart of the ariel view of Hogwarts. It has Hogsmeade, the 
lake, the quidditch pitch, Hagrid's hut...everything and it is just 
how I imagined it to be. And it was less than $5.00. It has 550 
pieces. I am so excited. It is way cool...

 (off to go put my puzzle together)

     Tessie 




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Feb 22 15:53:13 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:53:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Twins/map -
References: <9733rr+ktlj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c09ce7$94035a40$f5690f3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12791


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 8:23 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Twins/map - Fudge - Disorientation

  >>GoF.  I like the idea that the Map responded to the twins' various 
  >>attempts to figure it out by giving them instructions.  And also to 
  >>their intent--can't you see the Marauders making the map able to sense 
  >>when troublemakers as bad as themselves are trying to use it?  I love 
  >>it!  

  I imagine that the twins found the parchment and in spite of it probably being blank, they must have realized there was something to it because it was in a drawer labeled "dangerous."  I also imagine that they tried to discern it's purpose in much the same way that Snape did, by casting various revealing spells, and the map responded to them, as it did to Snape, but with very different comments.  There is also other evidence that the map can be helpful when it wants to be.  As Harry stands in front of the door to the secret passage, wondering how to open it, he sees himself on the map tapping the door and saying "dissendium."

  ender




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Feb 22 16:13:40 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:13:40 -0000
Subject: Fudge (as in Cornelius)
In-Reply-To: <00d801c09ca9$e6e5cd80$0100a8c0@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <973drk+ev68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12792




 
 I think they knew he would be there the same way they keep track of 
people who are apparating. Or maybe they have this HUGE Marauder-type 
map with dots on it for all the wizards/witches. J/K

Just a thought ... wouldn't it be great to have a map like that to 
keep track of our kids when they are away from home? 

Hi Nan! (Nan is my very best chat-friend from Holland, who convinced 
me that I just HAD to read HP. Then I convinced her that she just HAD 
to join this list.)

Doreen 

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nan Gisius" <a.gisius at c...> wrote:
> Don't they just "know"??? Like Harry got the letter from the 
ministry extremely short after Doby did some magic in Privet drive??? 
(SoC). 
> 
> I don't want to spoil the fun for ppl that haven't finished reading 
GoF ... but there is a hint there on how they can know ... there is 
some things done to Privet Drive to protect Harry ......
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: gerstin at p... 
>   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
>   Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 2:28 AM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge (as in Cornelius)
> 
> 
>   Hi folks-
>   I've been lurking for a couple weeks now, and have decided to 
throw
>   out a question that occurred to me just yesterday. I've been
>   re-reading (well, re-listening, actually -- I love Jim Dale!) PoA,
>   and it struck me as odd that Cornelius Fudge just so happened to 
be
>   waiting outside the Leaky Cauldron (at presumably something like 
3 in 
>   the morning, based on how quickly dawn arrives) just in time to 
meet up 
>   with Harry. Am I forgetting something that comes later to explain 
this? 
>   Or do any of you folks have theories about this?
>   Thanks!
> 
>   -Ed Gerstin





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Feb 22 20:04:46 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:04:46 -0000
Subject: Movie: Ian Hart interview (hardly anything interesting)
Message-ID: <973rcu+fris@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12793

I spotted an interview with Ian Hart in a discarded copy of "Hot 
Tickets" (a freebie listings from the London Evening Standard).  
There's not too much said about his role in the Harry Potter film, 
but it does give a clue to his accent:

"As Quirrell he's enunciating his lines in old fashioned RP 
('received pronunciation like the Queen's speech used to be'), one of 
many in his stock of dialects..."

I also liked this quote: 'I'm happy to do anything, cameos or leads, 
as long as there's some meat on them.  We're all prone to doing 
bollocks occasionally, but I try to judge a part by asking if it's a 
story I can tell in a different way.'

I guess acting in a turban with an evildoer's face attached to the 
back of his head will be a breeze for this versatile actor, 36, 
described in the article as "a medium-looking sort of a bloke."

Neil
flying_ford_anglia

(currently still at work, pretending to do something businesslike)






From whimzical at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 20:15:05 2001
From: whimzical at yahoo.com (whimzical at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:15:05 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling on Harry Potter Five (Plucked from the newsgroup)
In-Reply-To: <000a01c09cd1$6a223ae0$542d07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <973s09+b3u8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12794

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dinah" <betty_belladonna at f...> wrote:
> Oh gawd, this sounds like a real nail-chewer. I'm getting exited and 
nervous
> just reading all the little spoilers.
> 
> And more Lupin! I mean, it was pretty clear since Sirius went to 
fetch him,
> but still! But the "more Dursley stuff" makes me etchy - I always 
skip the
> first chapter in the books because they make me so uneasy. Have you 
punched
> a Dursley on the nose today? <g>
> 
> Thanks Dave!
> 
>  ~ Dinah ~
> 
> ICQ: 10 44 52 471
> YM: bludger_witch
> 
> People are like stained-glass windows.
> They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
> but when the darkness sets in,
> their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.
> 
> ~Elizabeth K?bler-Ross

 Ooooh, I can't wait. So glad to see more of Lupin coming, but more 
Dursley's? I was hoping they would continuously be phased out of the 
books....and if one of them becomes magical I will freak. They do not 
deserve it at all! I wonder if Arabella Figg will turn out to be Mrs. 
Figg-imagine the surprise on Harry's face! Maybe she'll be the next 
DADA teacher...nah, I doubt it. I hope OoP is really long, but I've 
heard it won't be as long as GoF. I bet Harry will start noticing 
Ginny and about time too (please, I don't want to start a debate here)
Anyone know when it's coming out? I've heard a lot of 'Nov.2001' and 
also a lot of 'sometime in 2002.' My theory is it'll be released in 
the UK in Nov. and over here (I hope!) in early 2002, like January.




From whimzical at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 20:29:11 2001
From: whimzical at yahoo.com (Julie Smith)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:29:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
Message-ID: <20010222202911.19636.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12795

 OK, this is just a frivolous post. The questions are:
  Which character would you most like to meet, and
why?
  
  Which character would you most like to be friends   
  with, and why?

  Which character would you most like to be involved  
  with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
  date...

  And, which character would you most like to be?

 I would most like to meet Dumbledore, because he's a
genius and so wise, and considered to be the greatest
wizard of the time. OR Draco, so I could beat him up.
 I would most like to be friends with Harry, because
he's nice, and fun, and loyal and cool. Also, he's
where the action is, there's probably never a dull
moment when you're with him (although sometimes you
face mortal danger)
 I would most like to be Hermione because she's smart
and nice and a great witch and will probably be
Minister Of Magic one day. I would also just love to
be part of their Scooby group.
 And finally, even though this is soooo unoriginal, my
heart belongs with Sirius. We would ride unicorns, and
then play Quidditch!(:

Have fun with this! Julie


  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Feb 22 20:41:13 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 22 Feb 2001 12:41:13 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
Message-ID: <20010222204113.9680.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12796

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010222/d75c8912/attachment.ksh>

From bohners at pobox.com  Thu Feb 22 21:02:54 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:02:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
References: <20010222202911.19636.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c09d12$d78eb540$863dacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 12797

>   Which character would you most like to meet, and
> why?

Alastor Moody (the real one), because he's just so *cool*.  And I bet he'd
have amazing stories to tell.  Plus, I'd feel pretty safe with him around!

>   Which character would you most like to be friends
>   with, and why?

Dumbledore, because he's compassionate and funny and wise, and you could
always count on him to help you out in a time of need, and to always give
you the benefit of the doubt even when nobody else would.

>   Which character would you most like to be involved
>   with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
>   date...

Oh, gosh.  I'd really better not say Snape, unless he's a) being played by
Alan Rickman and b) agrees to wash his hair first.  Fred or George Weasley
would be a lot of fun but altogether too much trouble.  I think I'm safest
admitting to a fondness for Remus Lupin, *provided* he has a large supply of
potion on hand...!  But we could go for a long walk (*not* in the moonlight)
and talk about our lives and experiences.

>   And, which character would you most like to be?

Fleur Delacour, for the totally superficial reason that I've always wanted
to have long silver hair.  <g>
--
Rebecca




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Feb 22 21:32:44 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:32:44 -0000
Subject: The Widow of Kent?
In-Reply-To: <97377j+8ij0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9740hs+d41p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12798

I just found the following in a web search on "widow of kent":

       Works by Women and Anonymous Writers from 1770-1830
<snip>
Anonymous. The Widow of Kent, or The History of Mrs. Rowley.
London: F. Noble, 1788
PR/3991/A1/W63/1788 S-M

Source: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~dwhite/pascoe2.htm


"Mrs. Rowley" ?!!!

-Jim.




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 21:36:09 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:36:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
Message-ID: <F46kS0452K8JExmWjAN00019ffe@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12799

---------Which character would you most like to meet, and why?----------
I am going to have to tie, Mr. Weasley so I can talk about my Muggle life 
with him to someone who would finally be really interested<vbeg> And dudley, 
so i could poke him in his belly to see if he says "Hoo Hoo!"

----Which character would you most like to be friends with, and why?----
I would want to be friends with the Weasley Twins.  They are both hysterical 
and you get a GREAT friend split in half.  When you need free spirited fun, 
talk to fred, if you need to talk go to George, or both!

--Which character would you most like to be involved with 
romantically,----------------why, and describe a perfect first 
date...------------------
Draco...Definately Draco....And I want to go anywhere where he has on 
leather pants <vbeg>

-------------And, which character would you most like to be?-------------
I wouldn't want to be any of the characters Jo has written thus far, but 
someone new, just like me who just gets lucky enough to be stuck in the 
Hogwarts World!!

Stephanie Malfoy
Who LOVES fun posts!
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From rachelhardisty at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 22 22:37:41 2001
From: rachelhardisty at yahoo.com (rachel hardisty)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:37:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: problems
Message-ID: <20010222223741.9406.qmail@web12401.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12800


--- rachel hardisty <rachelhardisty at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi!  I just got sorted into Gryffindor too (is
> everyone?!)  and I subscribed.  Then the computer
> told
> me that I hadn't finished yet, and to check my
> emails.
>  So I received an email telling me another site to
> go
> to, and then subscription was complete.  THEN I got
> another email telling me the gryffindor password, so
> you should have one to - it got sent to me almost
> instantly.  Hope this helps!  

You have to subscribe
> separately for the Gryffindor list and the Marauders
> map list too by the way.
> 
> 
> --- Nicole Bayntun <phoenix_voice at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> <HR>
> 
> <html><DIV>
> <P>how exactly are you supposed to subscribe?! i was
> sorted into gryffindor, and i'm on the mailing list
> for the marauders map, but i don't know how to get
> into the gryffindor common room......? could you
> please tell me?</P>
> <P></P>
> <P>phoenix_voice at hotmail.com<BR><BR></P></DIV><br
> clear=all><hr>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN
> Hotmail at <a
>
href="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</a>.<br></p></html>
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Tired of those long cc: email headers? Get Coollist!
> Click: http://www.coollist.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great
> prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Did you know you can update your membership profile?
> Visit: http://www.coollist.com/users/login.html
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From a.gisius at chello.nl  Thu Feb 22 22:45:18 2001
From: a.gisius at chello.nl (Nan Gisius)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:45:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge (as in Cornelius)
References: <973drk+ev68@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003401c09d21$2b2e2560$0100a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12801

i don''t hink it's a marauder map type of thing .. that would mean someone looking at that 24/7 ...... and i'm sure Percy would have mentioned something about that .........

The more I think about it .. the more i think it has something to do with the things being in Privet Drive ... giving the ministry warning when something odd happens there ...........

and hey doreen :)) We're doing good in feeding each other some addictions .... I was supposed to work today .. and my boss disagrees with me that thinking about why things happen in the Potterbooks shoudl be considered work !! ;)

And .. eh .. isn't that why muggles invented cellphones??? to keep track of their kids??????
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doreen Rich 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 5:13 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge (as in Cornelius)






  I think they knew he would be there the same way they keep track of 
  people who are apparating. Or maybe they have this HUGE Marauder-type 
  map with dots on it for all the wizards/witches. J/K

  Just a thought ... wouldn't it be great to have a map like that to 
  keep track of our kids when they are away from home? 

  Hi Nan! (Nan is my very best chat-friend from Holland, who convinced 
  me that I just HAD to read HP. Then I convinced her that she just HAD 
  to join this list.)

  Doreen 

  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nan Gisius" <a.gisius at c...> wrote:
  > Don't they just "know"??? Like Harry got the letter from the 
  ministry extremely short after Doby did some magic in Privet drive??? 
  (SoC). 
  > 
  > I don't want to spoil the fun for ppl that haven't finished reading 
  GoF ... but there is a hint there on how they can know ... there is 
  some things done to Privet Drive to protect Harry ......
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: gerstin at p... 
  >   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
  >   Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 2:28 AM
  >   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge (as in Cornelius)
  > 
  > 
  >   Hi folks-
  >   I've been lurking for a couple weeks now, and have decided to 
  throw
  >   out a question that occurred to me just yesterday. I've been
  >   re-reading (well, re-listening, actually -- I love Jim Dale!) PoA,
  >   and it struck me as odd that Cornelius Fudge just so happened to 
  be
  >   waiting outside the Leaky Cauldron (at presumably something like 
  3 in 
  >   the morning, based on how quickly dawn arrives) just in time to 
  meet up 
  >   with Harry. Am I forgetting something that comes later to explain 
  this? 
  >   Or do any of you folks have theories about this?
  >   Thanks!
  > 
  >   -Ed Gerstin



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From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Feb 22 23:00:25 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:00:25 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JK Rowling on Harry Potter Five (Plucked from the newsgroup)
References: <973s09+b3u8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001201c09d23$47344d00$8314a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12802


  Anyone know when it's coming out? I've heard a lot of 'Nov.2001' and 
  also a lot of 'sometime in 2002.' My theory is it'll be released in 
  the UK in Nov. and over here (I hope!) in early 2002, like January.



  NO! NO! NO! I can not sit still knowing that all of you will be reading it in November and I will have to wait until January... that is just not fair!

  Doreen sending extra money to Neil to reserve her copy...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 22:59:38 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:59:38 -0000
Subject: Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
In-Reply-To: <20010222202911.19636.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9745kq+hkn2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12803

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Julie Smith <whimzical at y...> wrote:
>   Which character would you most like to meet, and
> why?
 
Hagrid - because of his fondness for his various creatures.  Wouldn't 
you love to ride a hippogriffe and play with a niffler?

>   Which character would you most like to be friends   
>   with, and why?

    Remus Lupin, because he has a warm heart, a sense of humor, and 
seems sensitive to others' feelings.  I bet you could tell him 
anything, even the most horrible, awful moments of your life, and 
what you'd get in return is affection and understanding because poor 
Remus knows what it's like to be hurt.

>   Which character would you most like to be involved  
>   with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
>   date...

Didn't even have to think about this.  Sirius (although Remus would 
be a fairly close second.)  I guess I'm just a push-over for a man 
who's suffered a grave injustice, and if he happens to be handsome, 
well, then, lucky me!  For the perfect first date, I'd cook something 
wonderfully Tuscan, open a good red wine, and see what happened.  I 
figure anyone who's been eating prison food and rats would appreciate 
good home cooking.  Of course, if he was allergic to cats, we'd have 
a problem....

>   And, which character would you most like to be?
 
 I'd like to be a Weasley twin, just to break some rules and rattle 
some cages!!

Marianne
  

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> Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Thu Feb 22 22:59:47 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:59:47 -0000
Subject: Neville's Memory (was: Possible Endings)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221185129.03439660@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9745l3+75t8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12804

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
 (Anything will be possible once the curse on his (Neville)
> memory is lifted, and this would of course be the final poetic 
justice: Neville's revenge on Snape!)
> 
Okay, I'm confused. Just where did this "Neville has a curse on his 
memory" thing originate?  It's been mentioned several times and I 
just don't get it.  Yes, he's the most forgetful student at Hogwarts, 
but a memory curse? If it has anything to do with his parents' 
afflictions, I seriously doubt that he was actually present when the 
DE's turned their sanity into swiss cheese and no "obliviate" charm 
was needed on young Neville.  I think his chronic forgetfullness has 
more to do with his slight mistrust/fear of magic ("My mum and dad 
were good at magic and look where it got them.").  

Although it would be sweet to see him as DADA prof and have to work 
with Snape!  (but only if that whole self-confidence issue is worked 
out!)

Trina




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Feb 22 23:10:17 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:10:17 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
References: <20010222202911.19636.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001701c09d24$a06dae60$8314a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12805




  OK, this is just a frivolous post. The questions are:
    Which character would you most like to meet, and
  why?
  I would like to meet Professor Dumbledore because I just love his sense of humor.
    
    Which character would you most like to be friends   
    with, and why?

  I would like to be friends with Neville because he knows how to be a good friend.

    Which character would you most like to be involved  
    with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
    date...
  Krum because he is big but sweet in a dumb kind of way. :)

    And, which character would you most like to be?
  I would want to be Hagrid. I love animals, all kinds, and I think it would be great to have a dragon.
  Doreen 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From particle at urbanet.ch  Thu Feb 22 23:14:05 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:14:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Memory (was: Possible Endings)
References: <9745l3+75t8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A959D3C.99301AE1@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 12806

Trina wrote:

> Okay, I'm confused. Just where did this "Neville has a curse on his
> memory" thing originate?  It's been mentioned several times and I
> just don't get it.  Yes, he's the most forgetful student at Hogwarts,
> but a memory curse? If it has anything to do with his parents'
> afflictions, I seriously doubt that he was actually present when the
> DE's turned their sanity into swiss cheese and no "obliviate" charm
> was needed on young Neville.  I think his chronic forgetfullness has
> more to do with his slight mistrust/fear of magic ("My mum and dad
> were good at magic and look where it got them.").
>
> Although it would be sweet to see him as DADA prof and have to work
> with Snape!  (but only if that whole self-confidence issue is worked
> out!)

Actually, there is a fic about that very subject - it's by Shanna Seanachai, and although I forget the title, she's on ffn under that handle, so just search for her and look at the
summaries. It hasn't gotten very far as of yet, but what's there is promising for some good development. I will warn you, however, that it's also slash (i.e. male/male romance).

- Firebolt




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Feb 22 23:18:47 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:18:47 -0000
Subject: HP5 and book awards
In-Reply-To: <001201c09d23$47344d00$8314a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMENODDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12807

Someone wrote: "Anyone know when it's coming out? I've heard a lot of
'Nov.2001' and also a lot of 'sometime in 2002.' My theory is it'll be
released in the UK in Nov. and over here (I hope!) in early 2002, like
January."
Doreen replied: "NO! NO! NO! I can not sit still knowing that all of you
will be reading it in November and I will have to wait until January... that
is just not fair!
Doreen sending extra money to Neil to reserve her copy..."

I would very much doubt they would do this. If they were to do different UK
and US release dates then a large number of Americans would buy the UK
version (possibly from some online companies) instead of waiting for the US
copy to be released. I would guess that all the future books will have
simultaneous release dates for English language versions (i.e. UK, US,
Canada, Australia and some others). Having said al this I live in the UK, so
am not concerned, as we will get the book first anyway.


>From BBC online news
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1184000/1184692.stm)
talking about the British Book Awards: "The book of the year award went to
Parsons, whose semi-autobiographical Man And Boy, about a father-and-son
relationship, was one of the surprise successes of last year.
JK Rowling had to make do with an award for best marketing campaign and best
publisher for Bloomsbury.
The latest Harry Potter story, The Goblet of Fire, was also beaten to the
best children's book award by Philip Pullman's The Amber Spyglass.
Terry Pratchett for services to bookselling"

How did they get an award for best marketing campaign? They did practically
nothing and let word of mouth (the way that most of the good children's
books, in the UK, become famous at the moment) and media hype do all the
work. It must have been one of the easiest things in the world to do. We
have a product that has been topping the bestsellers list for three months
on pre sales alone and everyone wants it. That is something that sure needed
a decent marketing campaign!

Jo, or Bloomsbury, did not win anything else to my knowledge, but I was
pleased that Terry Pratchett (one of my favourite authors) and Tony Parsons
(his book, Man and Boy, is very good) got some recognition.
How The Amber Spyglass won the children's award I will never know. My
thoughts on that book are probably best reserved for a different list as it
is way OT for here and we now have the HpforGU OT Chatter group, available
at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter, for that kind of thing I
should probably do it their, if anywhere.



Simon (still writing about Harry, but being delayed by fanfic writers!)
--
Come and talk about anything with other Harry Potter fans:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter







From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 23:56:03 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:56:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauders' Map
Message-ID: <F315gcOrBLSAQV6uPDV00011ee4@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12808

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love the way Ms. Rowling's books bring out the creativity in people!
Here's another example:
http://www.maraudersmap.4t.com/map.htm?
Whether or not it's accurate, (and I'm not at all sure, myself), it's lots 
of fun!
I was referred to this website from the Young Adult Books section of 
About.Com
*Elizabeth*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm....while yes, it was tons of fun(I spent 45 min there during which i 
should have been finishing science fair) I thought that Hufflepuff was next 
to the kitchens....And I also thought that ravenclaw was by/near the 
astronomy tower and owlery.  I wonder if anyone could make an accurate 
map...

Stephanie
Off to check the Lexicon....

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From a.gisius at chello.nl  Fri Feb 23 00:19:42 2001
From: a.gisius at chello.nl (Nan Gisius)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:19:42 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
References: <20010222204113.9680.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <004c01c09d2e$51837500$0100a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12809

character i would like to meet ..... hmmm ... i guess most of them .. but most prof Dumbledore ...... to ask him why i was never invited to go to Hogwarth ;)

Which character would you most like to be friends with, and why?

prof Lupin ... easy :) he is nice ... and sweet ... and has proven to be made out of the "real friend" material ...... he would even be a perfect romantic one ... but .. i dunno why .... i think he's gay ....

Which character would you most like to be involved with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first date...

Well .. since Lupin is gay .... it has to be Sirius Black ... he is sexy .... he does not depend on anyone (and i prefer men to be independent .. )
Perfect first date??? well ... a nice ride on Buckbeak .... to a nice QUIET open place in a wood .... with a lil brook babbling along .... he thinks we will go on a picnic .. well .. i happen to have forgotten the food .. and he won't even notice ;)

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: voicelady at mymailstation.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 9:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?


  On Thu, 22 February 2001, Julie Smith wrote:

  <<Which character would you most like to meet, and why?>>

  Easy - Neville, because he really needs a hug.

  <<Which character would you most like to be friends with, and why?>>

  Hagrid, because I love a big, soft-hearted man.  They make the *best* friends!

  <<Which character would you most like to be involved with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first date...>>

  Easy again - Remus Lupin because he a) is extremely sexy (to me) and b) he reminds me of my husband.  Perfect date?  Hmmm...hang-gliding into the Grand Canyon, and then having a romantic, finger-food picnic by a blazing fire on the canyon floor.

  <<And, which character would you most like to be?>>

  I'd rather be my own original character.

  Jeralyn, the Voicelady

  "Never trust anything that can think for itself if you 
  can't see where it keeps it's brain!"

  come join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
  _____________________________________________________________
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From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 00:29:59 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:29:59 -0000
Subject: Neville's Memory (was: Possible Endings)
In-Reply-To: <3A959D3C.99301AE1@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <974au7+dcqa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12810

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Firebolt <particle at u...> wrote:
> Trina wrote:
> 
> > Okay, I'm confused. Just where did this "Neville has a curse on 
his
> > memory" thing originate?  It's been mentioned several times and I
> > just don't get it.  Yes, he's the most forgetful student at 
Hogwarts,
> > but a memory curse? 
<snip>
> 
> Actually, there is a fic about that very subject - it's by Shanna 
Seanachai, 

<snip>

So basically, this is fanon? 

<in small voice> Guys, it would be kind of nice if we could avoid 
fanon bleed when having canon discussions simply by noting that 
something comes from a fanfic. It's often easy for me to distinguish 
between simple personal speculation and canon, but hard, for some 
reason, to distinguish between fanon citations and canon. If the 
fanfic is contradicted by books five, six and seven, (which if 
obviously will be), then there will be even more confusion.

Charmian 




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Fri Feb 23 00:55:49 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:55:49 -0500
Subject: Order of the Phoenix / Jim Dale ::ewww::/ Which character...?
Message-ID: <001b01c09d33$5ecc15a0$0a14fea9@becky>

No: HPFGUIDX 12811

Another LOONNNNNNG post for you! :-)

 >Which character would you most like to meet, and why?<

    Well, I think I'd most want to meet Voldemort because it would be really cool to see complete and utter evil in action.  It would be so amazing to see something so bad, because I think it would give a sense of how corny the things I gripe about are, and that there are waaay worse things.  It'd be pretty cool to psycho-analyze him too and to find out the way his mind works.  Voldemort is most probablly a deranged genious gone terribly wrong, and it would be amazing to meet him.  The one downside would be in reality I'd probablly be murdered. :-)

> Which character would you most like to be friends with, and why? <

    I'd love to be friends with the Weasley twins!  It'd be so fun to be with people so mischievious and hysterical. The hilarity level would be immense and I'd laugh my ass off, which is always the best thing in the world to me.

> Which character would you most like to be involved with 
romantically? Why? Describe a perfect first date<

    Hmm, well honestly I don't know.   I think it'd be terribly corny to say Harry, but he's just such a nice and honest and warm guy...plus there'd never be a dull moment with all the evil ambushes.  The Weasley twins are just hilarious, and I'd be laughing my ass off.  Draco is too evil in canon, but fanon Draco is...::sigh::.  Ron is too uptight, and Sirius is way too old for little 14 year old me.  ;-) So I don;t know...maybe a future character? The perfect date would probablly be a moonlit walk on South Beach and then to a club somewhere to dance the night away! ;-)

> And, which character would you most like to be? <

    Ehh, that's a toughy too.  Maybe Hermione for her drive...she can work hours on end and is sooooo determinated.  Or the Weasley twins, because they have so much fun.  Or a Quidditch player...I'd adore flying.  Or maybe Ron because he beats everyone at chess...or maybe some really sexy evil person that can get away with wearing leather like Draco...::sigh::

    Oh yea, and I have a few theories about the "The Order of the Phoenix":

1) The Order of Merlin was presented to Prof. Dumbledore and almost to Prof. Snape for capturing Sirius. Thus, the Order of the Phoenix must be a lesser award...but an award all the same. And I have a feeling Harry will be the recipient of this award, to be terribly cliche.

2) Fawkes is grossly underestimated. He has a bigger role in these books than most people see. He is the core of both Harry and our favorite Dark Lord's wands, and can heal people. Fawkes may not even be the pet of Dumbledore...but rather be protected by him. And, well, the meaning of a phoenix helps my point. A phoenix is a bird that lived in Egypt's desert for 500 years, and then consumed itself in flames to be born again from its ashes. A phoenix can also be a paragon or a person of perfection.

    AND, Jim Dale's tapes are blah.  His voice is really annoying to me, and even though I love the books dearly I can't stand to listen to the tapes.  He ruins it!  The way he portrays people's voices it terrible!  Especially when he talks for Hermione or any other woman.  It's soo scary!  :-(

Well, any thoughts?

~Becca~



------------------------------------

"I have just eaten calves' feet. It is suprisingly difficult to adjust oneself to happiness having traveled the length and breadth of Siberia. I always envy the telegraph pole. A chemist's shop is scary.  I see spotted lizards.  Peace, Love, and Leprechaun repellant. If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you have tried. And last but not least, I really need to get a life.  Or the fifth Harry Potter book.  Either way." 

-----------------------------------


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 01:25:10 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael-pou)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 03:25:10 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
References: <20010222204113.9680.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <OE586mBySsxVY60mJWE0000b017@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12812

Jeralyn, the Voicelady wrote: "I'd rather be my own original character."

No fair. You already have your own character in "A Sirius Affair" (best fic on the net, by Penny and Carole - how's that for a Plug?)



<<Which character would you most like to be involved with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first date...>>

*evil grin* Draco Malfoy, because then my husband would pound him into dust, which is my idea of a perfect first date with him...


yael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From whimzical at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 01:43:20 2001
From: whimzical at yahoo.com (whimzical at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:43:20 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix / Jim Dale ::ewww::/ Which character...?
In-Reply-To: <001b01c09d33$5ecc15a0$0a14fea9@becky>
Message-ID: <974f7o+p0k1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12813




> 
>     Oh yea, and I have a few theories about the "The Order of the 
Phoenix":
> 
> 1) The Order of Merlin was presented to Prof. Dumbledore and almost 
to Prof. Snape for capturing Sirius. Thus, the Order of the Phoenix 
must be a lesser award...but an award all the same. And I have a 
feeling Harry will be the recipient of this award, to be terribly 
cliche.
> 
> 2) Fawkes is grossly underestimated. He has a bigger role in these 
books than most people see. He is the core of both Harry and our 
favorite Dark Lord's wands, and can heal people. Fawkes may not even 
be the pet of Dumbledore...but rather be protected by him. And, well, 
the meaning of a phoenix helps my point. A phoenix is a bird that 
lived in Egypt's desert for 500 years, and then consumed itself in 
flames to be born again from its ashes. A phoenix can also be a 
paragon or a person of perfection.
> 
> 
> When I first heard the title, my first thought was that it was some 
sort of award too. Although it could also be a name of a group, like 
the "old crowd." 
I want a Fawkes! He sounds so cool and beautiful.




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Fri Feb 23 01:52:53 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:52:53 EST
Subject: Merchandise
Message-ID: <36.1269b23b.27c71c75@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12814

Not sure if any of you know or not, but some of the WB Studio Stores have a select few styles of HP T-shirts on sale.

Get 'em while they are still in business:)

~Hedwig~



From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Feb 23 03:17:44 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:17:44 -0600
Subject: HP Artist in S.A.--results
References: <3A913AC9.18CEEA4F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A95D658.9DF5B66C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12815

Hi --

Just falling a tad behind again ...

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Well, I went to the Warner Brothers show last night and met Fred Bode.
>
> Besides the fun inherent in getting away from the kids for an evening,
>
> it was nice to chat with so many other HP fans. There were a handful
> of
> folks with kids there, but mostly lots of adults milling.
>
> When it was my turn, he signed the Harry ornament (the glass Kurt
> Adler
> Polonnaise one, with Harry standing there with Hedwig on his shoulder)
>
> in cool silver stuff,

That's very cool!  I have that one too (and the Adler glass Hermione
ornament as well).  They hung side by side on my tree.  <vbg>

> 4. I asked why Hermione had blue eyes (which she definitely does on
> the
> corresponding Polonnaise ornament, at least), and he seemed to think
> he'd gone strictly by the book. I overheard him talking to a person
> ahead of me, and he was telling them that JKR had written such
> wonderful
> detailed descriptions, that it made his job so easy! He really sounded
>
> like he enjoyed what he does. Anyway, back to the eyes, I said I
> thought
> in the books they were brown. Where was the reference? Because I got
> the
> impression that he'd read the book, but he might only have read book
> 1,
> maybe 2, and if her eye color is only mentioned later, he might just
> have missed that bit.

Her eyes are brown.  It's in CoS -- after she turned into a cat by
accident, there's a reference to the fact that her eyes had returned to
their normal brown color.  I'm glad to know he *thought* he was
following the books.  I do still dispute that the WB Hermione has
"brown" hair, but I know it's close enough to be arguable.

> 6. I asked about the scar alignment, the whole horizontal/vertical
> thing. He said that there had been some dissatisfaction on JKR's part
> with the book covers depicting it as vertical (my own preference). It
> sounded like something he'd discussed with her--he related that she
> told
> him that in her mind's eye, when Voldemort attacked baby Harry, the
> baby
> flinched away, turned his head a bit, and so the scar is diagonal.

That's very interesting Amanda!  I too prefer, and thought of, the scar
as vertical.  Hmm ... but the diagonal makes some sense too.

Great report -- thanks for asking all our questions while you had the
chance.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Feb 23 03:36:40 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:36:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Surviving Son (filk)
References: <982150985.237.62750.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <003101c09d49$d6451940$82c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12816

The Surviving Son (from HP/SS, Chapter 1)

(To the tune of The House of the Rising Sun)

(THE SCENE: Privet Drive. MINERVA McGONAGALL and ALBUS DUMBLEDORE discuss
the extraordinary events of Halloween Night 1980)

McGONAGALL (spoken) What they're saying is that last night Voldemort turned
up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily
and James Potter are -- are -- that they're -- dead.

(DUMBLEDORE bows his head gravely)

McGONAGALL (spoken) Lily and James... I can't believe it... I didn't want to
believe it...Oh, Albus..

DUMBLEDORE (music)
Inside their house James and Lily died, the Dark Lord killed each one
But he's now gone, we know not how - in their house survives their son

(Enter HAGRID, on a motorcycle, cradling the infant Harry Potter in a bundle
of blankets)

HAGRID (gravely approaching, )
The Dark Lord cast a killing spell upon the Potters' boy
But in their house survived their son, the Dark Lord's powers destroyed

ALL
And now, the whole world of wizards celebrates this surviving son
Harry is that prodigy through whom the Dark Lord was undone.

(McGONAGALL suddenly realizes why they are assembled on Privet Drive)

McGONAGALL
Albus, you cannot leave Harry here amidst this Muggle race
These Dursleys are not fit for him, of magic they haven't a trace

DUMBLEDORE
Here at this house on Privet Drive, young Harry must be raised
If he can survive Lord Voldemort, by Dudley he won't be phased.

(DUMBLEDORE gently deposits Harry on the front doorstep of 4 Privet Drive.
The three regard him with a mixture of tenderness, awe and apprehension)

ALL
For all time will the world of wizards celebrate our surviving son!
Harry, at Hogwarts we shall greet you again in 1991.

(Exit ALL)

   - CMC





From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Feb 23 03:29:51 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:29:51 -0600
Subject: HP5 and Jim Dale
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMENODDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A95D92F.EB4313D3@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12817

Hi --

Simon wrote:

> Someone wrote: "Anyone know when it's coming out? I've heard a lot of
> 'Nov.2001' and also a lot of 'sometime in 2002.' My theory is it'll be
>
> released in the UK in Nov. and over here (I hope!) in early 2002, like
>
> January."
>
> I would very much doubt they would do this. If they were to do
> different UK and US release dates then a large number of Americans
> would buy the UK
> version (possibly from some online companies) instead of waiting for
> the US copy to be released. I would guess that all the future books
> will have
> simultaneous release dates for English language versions (i.e. UK, US,
>
> Canada, Australia and some others).

I agree with Simon.  Scholastic lost *alot* of money on PoA when they
didn't release it until several months after the UK edition came out.
They won't make that mistake again, and in fact, I'm fairly certain both
publishers have said that there will hereafter always be simultaneous
release dates in the UK and US.

JIM DALE -- I have not heard the Stephen Fry versions, but if he doesn't
do different voices for the characters, I doubt I would enjoy them as
much as I do the Jim Dale versions.  I agree that his voices for several
characters are not what I imagined, and in fact, I absolutely hate his
voices for McGonagall and Hermione.  He does fine with Ginny, Cho and
some of the other more minor female characters, but I don't think he's
got a good handle on either McGonagall or Hermione.  I also *hate* the
voice he gave Sirius -- it's far too deep (as Carole said, he sounds
like he's about 800 yrs old!).  But, even with that, I *love* (love,
love, love) the Jim Dale versions of these books.  My baby is probably
going to recognize Jim Dale's voice more readily than my husband's
because of the amount of time spent in the car listening to these tapes.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Feb 23 03:36:06 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:36:06 -0600
Subject: FF & Neville's Memory
References: <974au7+dcqa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A95DAA6.D49904FE@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12818

Hi --

ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Firebolt <particle at u...> wrote:
> > Trina wrote:
> >
> > > Okay, I'm confused. Just where did this "Neville has a curse on
> his memory" thing originate?  It's been mentioned several times and I
> just don't get it.  Yes, he's the most forgetful student at
> Hogwarts, but a memory curse? <snip>
> >
> Actually, there is a fic about that very subject - it's by Shanna
> Seanachai,
>
> <snip>
>
> So basically, this is fanon?

No, I would disagree.  There *may* be a fanfic out there on this
subject, but I know on this group we've discussed it as a theory or
possibility.  I can't remember when it was discussed, but you might
check the Archives.

> <in small voice> Guys, it would be kind of nice if we could avoid
> fanon bleed when having canon discussions simply by noting that
> something comes from a fanfic. It's often easy for me to distinguish
> between simple personal speculation and canon, but hard, for some
> reason, to distinguish between fanon citations and canon.

Having said that the Neville's memory curse thing is a *theory* that may
have been taken to a fanfic, I do agree that we should all be mindful to
indicate when we're stating something from canon, from a fanfic or
something that is a theory/opinion (whether based on canon or FF).
:--)  There are some members, for example, who have consistently
expressed *opinions* as *facts* -- this can be very confusing &
problematic.  All it takes is simply saying "I believe" or "IMO" or
something of that nature to indicate that something you're proposing is
merely an opinion.

> If the fanfic is contradicted by books five, six and seven, (which if
> obviously will be),

Not necessarily 100% of *all* portions/aspects of *all* fanfics will be
contradicted by the last 3 books of canon.  I fully expect that some of
our talented fanfic authors might be prescient -- at least in *some*
respects.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Feb 23 03:44:47 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:44:47 -0600
Subject: Upcoming HP Discussion in NY City
Message-ID: <3A95DCAF.FD9BC553@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12819

Hi all --

The moderators have been asked by a non-member (who has no regular
computer access) to publicize the following HP event for those who might
be interested:

Harry Potter Book Club Discussion Group for Adults
Barnes & Noble
3rd Avenue/54th Street
April 19, 2001
6:30PM
New York City

Discussion will be led by a literary figure.

The person promoting this event is Arlene Shapiro and can be reached at
the following email address: Shapiro at bizzed.com

Penny




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 04:21:06 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:21:06 -0000
Subject: FF & Neville's Memory
In-Reply-To: <3A95DAA6.D49904FE@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <974ofi+907t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12820

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
<snip>
I do agree that we should all be mindful to
> indicate when we're stating something from canon, from a fanfic or
> something that is a theory/opinion (whether based on canon or FF).
> :--)  There are some members, for example, who have consistently
> expressed *opinions* as *facts* -- this can be very confusing &
> problematic.  All it takes is simply saying "I believe" or "IMO" or
> something of that nature to indicate that something you're 
proposing is
> merely an opinion.

I completely agree about this. I just meant that due to the nature of 
fanfiction, some of it is so good (mostly really good fanfic causes 
fanon bleed. It contains some sort of emotional perceived truth about 
the characters that resonates with the readers), often the most 
confusing statements come from fanon, although this is not always the 
case. 

> 
> > If the fanfic is contradicted by books five, six and seven, 
(which if
> > obviously will be),
> 
> Not necessarily 100% of *all* portions/aspects of *all* fanfics 
will be
> contradicted by the last 3 books of canon.  I fully expect that 
some of
> our talented fanfic authors might be prescient -- at least in *some*
> respects.
> 
> 

Argh. Meant to say something else here. Obviously not all fanfic can 
be contradictory, and some authors will be going in the same 
direction JKR is. Some wise person online once observed to me that 
the best fanfic is done off of "flawed" source material. HP is 
currently in an imperfect state simply because JKR isn't done yet, 
and thus there are lots of plot threads still going, characters to be 
discussed, etc, which provide fertile ground for ficcing. Often JKR 
has made it pretty clear, from the narration, that she will be 
continuing some plot point or another, and fanfic authors often take 
this as a starting point. Because they are second guessing the 
author, there is a chance that they will be contradicted unless they 
happen to be on the very same wavelength as JKR. 

Example 1:  shipping discussion. Many people have picked up the idea, 
rightly or wrongly, that JKR is setting up romance within the 
triangle in some way, which I remain agnostic upon. Either JKR will 
disappoint them by not putting romance in there, or "contradict" one 
of the genres of fanfic out there by making one of the romances 
canon. Example 2:  We've all been (or at least the clan of fans who 
are extremely intrigued by Snape) been whacking our heads against the 
wall trying to figure out [whole list of things follows, mercifully 
cut to save bandwith] of which many conjectures are plausible 
speculation. Some of our pet theories will or will not be confirmed 
in book five. Etc. 

Charmian, verbosely




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Feb 23 04:35:42 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:35:42 -0000
Subject: Marauders' Map
In-Reply-To: <c2.76ada9f.27c5cc2a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <974pau+10huq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12821

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> I love the way Ms. Rowling's books bring out the creativity in 
people!
> 
> Here's another example:
> 
> http://www.maraudersmap.4t.com/map.htm?
> 
> Whether or not it's accurate, (and I'm not at all sure, myself), 
it's lots of 
> fun!

No, it's not very accurate, but I don't think it's intended to be. As 
you say, it's fun and creative. I enjoyed it.

The Lexicon has a map of the castle grounds and Hogsmeade and also a 
listing of what's on each floor of Hogwarts, but no map of the 
interior. I've been making some sketches and I'll try to put 
something on there soon to show what we do know of where things are 
and how they relate to each other. I can show portions of the main 
floor, that's about it. Everything else is pretty fuzzy.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Feb 23 04:37:05 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:37:05 -0000
Subject: Questions about the Stouffer stuff..(warning-- kind of long)
In-Reply-To: <97363h+o8hb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <974pdh+qkcf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12822

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> Just so you know Kelly, a number of us have searched the most 
remote corners of the earth to find ANY existing copy of ANY of 
Stouffers works, or, failing that, hard evidence that these works in 
fact existed in published form. We have come of with nothing. 
> 
> I think I can safely say though that one would have an easier time 
> snorkling in search of the Loch Ness Monster. I have worked as a 
> professional researcher and pride myself on being able to dig up 
> anything. Stouffer's Legend of Rah appears to have left not so much 
as a footprint in the publishing world.
> 
> Obviously the book must have existed or there would be no case. I 
> suspect that Stouffer's Stouffer's works have been self-published-- 
> kind fo like when I was twelve and decided to start my own 
newspaper I wrote the whole thing out by hand, photocopied it, and 
sold "subscriptions" door-to-door in my neighborhood. In Stouffer's 
case, it sounds like she took her self-made copies to her local Rite 
Aid to sell. I think technically under the law, once you put anything 
on paper, it is copyrighted and can be defended as such. Hmmm... But 
this is a Trademark case, which I think makes things different. My 
question is: Hasn't anyone noticed that Rowling isn't using "muggles" 
as a trademark? She is using it as a WORD, like turnip or green. I 
have never heard of anyone reserving a word for their exclusive use.
> 
> Heidi can say more about this part though. 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Suzanne

That is so incredibly bizarre.  Would there perhaps be some reason to 
pull all her works due to the lawsuit?  I wonder how long her works 
were available before?  Very strange, indeed.  Thanks for the info, 
Suzanne...

Kelley





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Feb 23 04:49:49 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:49:49 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
In-Reply-To: <20010222202911.19636.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010222193719.029d5530@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12823

At 12:29 PM 2/22/01 -0800, Julie Smith wrote:
>   Which character would you most like to meet, and
>why?

Whoever is Leader of the Opposition at the Ministry of Magic,
so I could offer my services for the "Dump Cornelius" campaign.

>   Which character would you most like to be friends
>   with, and why?

Hagrid, because I love nature and animals; and he'd be handy
to have around if someone bullies you.

>   Which character would you most like to be involved
>   with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
>   date...

Either Professor Sinistra (because I'm interested in space) or
Celestina Warbeck, the Singing Sorceress (because I'm a
sucker for a woman who can sing).  For our first date, I'd
take her flying in a Pegasus-drawn chariot.

>And, which character would you most like to be?

Bill Weasley -- Then I could have a "nerdy" job, but be
popular with girls.



                                                 -- Dave




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 06:13:29 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:13:29 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
References: <20010222202911.19636.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008101c09d5f$e4229720$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12824



>   Which character would you most like to meet, and
> why?

Harry count?  Grins.  It's a toss-up between Remus and Dumbledore.

>   Which character would you most like to be friends
>   with, and why?

Dumbledore.  I think there's an awful lot he can teach about myself to me.
(Reads that, and hopes that it makes sense--I get what I meant...lol)

>   Which character would you most like to be involved
>   with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
>   date...

Ahhhh.  Hmm.  Sirius or Remus.... Decisions, decisions.

I'll say Lupin.

>   And, which character would you most like to be?

Easy--Hermione!  She IS me!  Grins...minus glasses...






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 06:31:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:31:27 -0000
Subject: Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
In-Reply-To: <20010222202911.19636.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <97503v+uvhj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12825

You're right, Julie--this IS a fun post!  Thanks for giving us all the 
opportunity to gush!  (Close observers will notice I give 2 answers to 
most of the questions...make of that what you will.)

>  OK, this is just a frivolous post. The questions are:
>   Which character would you most like to meet, and
> why?

(1) Dumbledore if I can just follow him around awhile.  He's so 
intriguing--I want to know what he does all day!  Contemplate the 
secrets of the universe, no doubt.  Just let me be a fly on his study 
wall for a few days.  And (2) Harry so I can give him a good long hug. 
 He really, really needs one, and Hermione interrupted the last one.
   
>   Which character would you most like to be friends   
>   with, and why?

I almost want to say Ron.  He is so damn funny--he would be the most 
fun person just to do things with, to hang out with.  And I do think 
there's a lot more depth to Ron than we've seen (& I'd bring it out a 
lot better than reserved Harry does).  I see it in little things like 
the way he sticks up for Neville, and moments like his telling 
Hermione to lay off Harry when she's pressuring him about lying to 
Sirius.  Ron is a lot more perceptive than he lets on.

But when it comes down to it, friendship means more heart-to-hearts, 
deep conversations, and intellectual depth to me, so I'll go with 
Remus.
 
>   Which character would you most like to be involved  
>   with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
>   date...

Becca, I can't believe you're worrying about characters being too old 
for "little 14 year old me."  Here are all of us 30- and 
40-somethings, wondering who we can imagine dating without getting 
arrested, left with no one but "Sirius--no, Remus--no, Sirius!", and 
you have four bookfuls of contemporaries and you are complaining?!  
Damn it, girl, half of us would jump Harry (or fill in your choice:  
Ron, Oliver, Draco...) if it weren't illegal!

Okay, but I'm a mature woman ::glares and challenges fellow listies to 
dispute that:: <g> so I will seriously consider the question of which 
ADULTS I would like to be involved with.  And after much 
soul-searching, I have to say:  Remus Lupin, hands down, no question. 
 And I am pleased to report, like Jeralyn, that he is an awful lot 
like my husband.  It's always reassuring when the fictional characters 
you fall for bear a striking resemblance to your life partner.  

Perfect first date?  No such thing--first dates stink.  All that 
pressure.  How about, we never have to have one, as soon as we meet 
it's like we've known each other for years?
 
>   And, which character would you most like to be?

Oh, probably Hermione.  Because I already am.  (Which, again, is 
reassuring...like looking in the Mirror and seeing yourself as you 
are.)  Except that she can do magic and I can't.  That would be a nice 
addition to my life.  When I look at Hermione's life it seems very 
good--she has her problems, like people she loves getting into mortal 
danger on a regular basis and her being overly stressed out about 
work, but all in all she has her head together, and her heart too.  
IMO.

I thought Hagrid at first, but he seems kind of lonely.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning 
down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?"
   "Aaaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical
whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign
that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry. . . ."
                              --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire 
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From XoemyoX at aol.com  Fri Feb 23 06:53:28 2001
From: XoemyoX at aol.com (Emily )
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:53:28 -0000
Subject: Hi all!
Message-ID: <9751d8+65o8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12826

I am new to this group and just wanted to say Hi!  And I though I 
would tell you a little about myself.  I am a soon to be 20-year-old 
college student.  I am currently attending Stephen F. Austin State 
University.  My major is Elementary Education.  I have all four Harry 
Potter books (of course) and I have read them several times.  Right 
now I am trying to make a Harry Potter Web Page that I may be able to 
link to from my Teaching Web Page one day.  Reading is one of my 
favorite past times and I love bookstores.  I am looking forward to 
buying the new books (coming out in March) and I also think it is so 
cool that all the procedes are going to the UK Comic Relief.  
Anyway...I thought I would post some of my favorite books and see 
what you all think of me.  I have always thought you could tell what 
a person is like by the books they read...maybe not.

My favorite...
Harry Potter (of course)
Anne of Green Gables (the whole series and the Emily of New Moon 
Books too)
Summer Sisters (by Judy Blume but an adult novel)
and A Walk to Remember  (by Nicholas Sparks...I cried so hard)

Anyway, I am really excited to be on this board and I hope to hear 
from you all soon!!!

Emily




From nykteris at polbox.com  Fri Feb 23 07:05:48 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:05:48 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Worst Witch
References: <20010220203421.4394.qmail@web1804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c09d67$8d23cd60$8f604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 12827

Thank you for your help! 

Katarzyna 




From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Fri Feb 23 07:17:54 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (mohuebner0 at lycos.de)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:17:54 -0000
Subject: HP5 and Jim Dale
In-Reply-To: <3A95D92F.EB4313D3@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9752r2+m19f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12828

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> JIM DALE -- I have not heard the Stephen Fry versions, but if he 
doesn't
> do different voices for the characters, I doubt I would enjoy them 
as
> much as I do the Jim Dale versions.

I have the Stephen Fry versions (books 1, 2 and 3, 4 is not yet out)
and he *does* do different voices for the characters. Maybe a bit
less pronounced than Jim Dale and less like in a radio show, but you
can clearly distinguish the voices of the different characters just
by listening. I have listened to the samples of the Jim Dale versions
at the Randomhouse website and decided that I liked them a lot less
than Stephen Fry, although I think they are quite good, too.

>  I also *hate* the
> voice he gave Sirius -- it's far too deep (as Carole said, he sounds
> like he's about 800 yrs old!). 

I don't know where they get this idea, but Stephen Fry does the
same! But even though I have listened to the chapters that relate
the events in the Shrieking Shack several times now, Sirius still has
the voice he always had in my head. 

But I love Fry's Hagrid and Snape, they totally match the voice I
imagined them to have. He does quite a good job with the children, 
too, and his Hermione is less annoying than Jim Dale's.

Monika






From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 07:44:53 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (~*Vicki Granger*~)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:44:53 +1100
Subject: Newbie - Disorientation - Quiz Thingy
Message-ID: <F217KzGZuNY1SWoBDys00014ba4@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12829

~Hi! :) i'm new to the group... so I'll introduce myself!

I'm a young teenager who is very mature for my age, smart and a lot of other 
things. I joined this group because I liked the idea of indepth discussion. 
I live in NSW, Australia.

I'm a fanfiction author and I'm a member of COUNTLESS groups about HP. But 
on with the post...

======
Did anyone else feel strange reading the beginning of PoA?  I have
heard people say they didn't like the first chapter of GoF; I wonder i
f what they're reacting to is a disorientation caused by the almost
unheard-of shift out of Harry's POV (and even, very briefly, into
another character's--Frank's--which I don't think ever happens
elsewhere in the books).  You begin that first chapter and think,
"Hey!  Where's our Harry?"  In my case with the first chapters of PoA,
I felt a sense of disorientation at the prospect that Harry really
wasn't going to end up at Hogwarts.  When he was sitting in Magnolia
Crescent, I thought (silly me) that he might really spend the book on
the run.  I think I was influenced by the cover (him & unknown girl on
hippogriff--well, it doesn't LOOK like Hermione!) and the title, and
had the idea that from the beginning he was going to head to Azkaban,
maybe to rescue someone.  I felt relieved and grounded once more when
he got to Diagon Alley, and especially when he met up with R & H.
Amazing what a small shift it takes for an author to give you a whole
new feeling.
======

~I got a strange feeling in the first chapter of GoF, but not PoA. I never 
really thought that Harry wouldn't end up at Hogwarts in PoA, I knew he'd 
get there eventually, but in GoF it took ages for it to get to Hogwarts. The 
first time I read it I thought that they'd cancel Hogwarts because of all 
the Dark Arts!

The first chapter WAS disorientating in GoF, I was sitting there going "This 
isn't right... it's a printing mistake! Where's Hogwarts, or Privet Drive! 
Why don't I recognise anything? It took me until they started mentioning 
'Muggles' and 'Quidditch' that I realised what was up.

======
Which character would you most like to meet, and why?
======

~I was going to say Hermione, but then I thought of Dumbledore! So wise and 
everything!

======
Which character would you most like to be friends with, and why?
======

~Fred and George! It'd be a LOT of fun! Lots of tricks... I'd have a close 
link to Hermione, Ron and Harry...

======
Which character would you most like to be involved with romantically, why, 
and describe a perfect first date...
======

~From the actual books: Ron, he seems sweet :) we'd probably have dinner at 
ogsmeade, or a picnic or something.... He'd be really nervous and keep 
droppping things!

But I'm holding out for Draco, from Cassandra Claire's stuff :) leather 
trousers.... *drools* We'd go into the Forbidden Forest on broomstick or 
something...

======
And, which character would you most like to be?
======

~I'd most like to be Hermione, I'd be in on the group, I'd get to be in on 
the action, and it'd be an easy transition because I'm a lot like Hermione 
anyway :) but I like the limelight so I'd also like to be Harry (except of 
course that I'd be a guy if I was him...)

========

~*Vicki Granger*~
FanFiction.Net Author
Hermione Granger in Harry_Potter_RPG2
3rd Cheryl's Angel in Harry_Potter_RPG2
~*~MeMbEr Of EvIl ClUb~*~
:>(*)<: Reserve Seeker :>(*)<:
Proud Ravenclaw

"Men. Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em."  --Laura Chant ("Harry Potter 
and the Show That Never Ends" by Lori)

"You do realize this magazine is a complete rag, don't you? Look at the 
stuff you can order in the back. 'Please rush me my Twenty-Four-Hour 
Cleavage Enhancement Charm. Only 12 galleons and it lasts all day. Please 
sign on the dotted line below to confirm that you're over eighteen, even if 
your IQ isn't.'" --Draco Malfoy ("Draco Sinister" by Cassandra Claire)

"So, when can I expect the psycho-killers? And do they take one lump or two? 
Milk?" --Maple
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Fri Feb 23 07:51:05 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:51:05 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re Marauders' Map/Diary
Message-ID: <01C09DC9.F0464BE0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12830

I wonder if MWPP didn't tell Fred and George how to
work the map. When Snape, having confiscated it from
Harry, tries to activate the map, he eventually gets
some insults out of MWPP. Since Fred and George are
boys after the original Marauders' own hearts, I can
easily imagine the Weasely twins getting something
more useful out of the map than just insults.

Anne

Does any one else see the similarity between the map and Tom Riddle's diary in 
terms of its ability to think for itself, without apparent brain? Maybe the 
ability to leave a bit of your self in a material thing is not so hard (since 
both items were created by teenage boys - not to dis any teenage boys at all 
but )

storm

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From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Feb 23 08:22:31 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:22:31 -0800
Subject: Intimacy Issues - Diggory - Map - Frivolity - 
Message-ID: <3A961DC6.5AD6F90D@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12831

Jim Ferer replied to Julie:
> Are Lupin's intimacy issues more severe than Professor
> Dumbledore's or Professor McGonagall's?

Logically, they ought to be. This is a man who, from early childhood,
has had to keep a very big part of his life secret from everyone but his
parents... something which would be difficult to keep secret from
friends you see all the time, except the times you aren't available are
always Full Moon... When he finally did get together with some friends
he could trust, and presumably started to open up a little, he lost them
all by (what appeared) one friend murdering all the rest. That wouldn't
exactly encourage him to seek out new people to trust. His remark in the
Shrieking Shack about never having been able to find employment (in the
US edition, the UK edition said 'paid work', which I find not as good)
indicates that word had gotten out about his lycanthropy and most
wizarding folk responded by making it clear that they didn't want his
friendship.

Kelley wrote:
> Does anyone besides me think perhaps Mr. Diggory will
> go dark now that he's lost his much-loved son, and that
> overly-hyped (to him) Harry Potter was involved?

I don't think Amos would go dark for vengeance on Harry, but it occurred
to me that he might be seduced to the Dark by promises of bringing his
son back to life.

Steve of Lexicon replied to Doreen:
> The Weasley twins have that magical sense. When confronted with
> an  item like the map, they draw on their collective experience with
> magical items and how they work and how they are created, and
> they  can intuit it's function and how to operate it. That also ties
into
> my theory of intention as being much more important that exact word
> (snip) so much so that when they need to activate an object, they can
> construct their own spell words to do so

Yes, but I am sure that there are also spells to find out about spells
-- spells to find out what spell is on a magical object and how it
works, spells to find out what curse a person is afflicted by  -- I am
sure that Bill's job as a cursebreaker involves casting spells to find
how the booby traps, how they work and how they can be disabled. To me,
the twins used spells of that sort to figure out how to work the
Marauders' Map, which is one example that they are powerful and skilled
wizards despite their low marks and scarcity of O.W.L.s. Another example
is that they invented the Canary Creams -- turning someone into a
canary, even temporarily, is Transfiguration.

Julie asked:
> Which character would you most like to be involved
> with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first date...
> And, which character would you most like to be?

It's not exactly a secret that I'm madly in love with Remus Lupin. So
much kindness. Intelligence. Self-control. And my real life shows that
I've never learned not to fall in love with men who have serious
intimacy issues! The ideal first date would involve sitting together in
some cozy bars /restaurants /coffeehouses conversing so interestedly on
some interesting topic that we don't notice the time passing until we
are surprised to be thrown out at closing time.... (It also involves
werewolves not being hurt by silver when in human form, considering the
amount of silver I wear on my hands...

H'mmm. I want to be a beautiful, brilliant, magically powerful, popular,
Ravenclaw girl... so I thought of Cho, but we don't know that she's
brilliant or powerful. Someone mentioned Fleur, and having a magic power
to turn all straight men's knees to jelly (and opposite effect
elsewhere....) often seems something I would want....
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Feb 23 08:46:31 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:46:31 -0000
Subject: Re Marauders' Map/Diary
In-Reply-To: <01C09DC9.F0464BE0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <975817+9ibd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12832

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Snuffles MacGoo <msmacgoo at o...> wrote:

> Does any one else see the similarity between the map and Tom
> Riddle's diary in terms of its ability to think for itself,
> without apparent brain? 

Harry did -- when the twins show him how to work the map, "But even 
as he stood there, flooded with excitement, something Harry had once 
heard Mr. Weasley say came floating out of his memory. Never trust 
anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps 
its brain."

> maybe the ability to leave a bit of your self in a material thing
> is not so hard (since both items were created by teenage boys - not
> to dis any teenage boys at all but )

But they were a l-o-n-g way from being *average* teenage boys, not 
even average wizarding teenage boys! 




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Fri Feb 23 10:29:22 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 05:29:22 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts puzzle
Message-ID: <b7.bb40460.27c79582@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12833

Hi Tessie and all

>It has Hogsmeade, the lake, the quidditch pitch, Hagrid's hut...everything 
and it is just how I imagined it to be. 

I wonder if Asda will start selling it here in England  (Asda are now owned 
by Walmart).  I''ve not seen this design of jigsaw yet... but I have quite a 
few of the other designs, and games.... but alas, no quidditch card game yet 
- it's always out of stock!

Nick
(returning from Lurk mode!)



From john at walton.to  Fri Feb 23 10:56:13 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:56:13 +0000
Subject: NY get-togethers!
Message-ID: <B6BBF24C.C74D%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 12834

Quick update for the list on the NY get-togethers in March and April.

The NY crowd is currently planning two get-togethers along with
out-of-towners Neil and Ebony, who're coming to visit. The dates are
Thursday 22 March and Friday 13 April (that's Good Friday, for any
Christians out there). We're planning a dimsum trip to Chinatown, a little
explore of NYC, perhaps a museum, walk around Central Park if it's nice, the
usual sort of thing. We could even try the Beast -- great fun, a speedboat
which takes you out along the Hudson River to the Statue of Liberty.

Sooooo...if you're not already receiving off-list emails from the NY crowd,
drop me an email if you'll be in NY on either 22 March or 13 April!

--John, who thinks it's somewhat amusing that he's organising this from
Scotland...




From miredinthemarrow at email.com  Fri Feb 23 12:52:39 2001
From: miredinthemarrow at email.com (Shanna Seanachai)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:52:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Neville's Memory / Also Neville v. Peter
Message-ID: <381840250.982932759519.JavaMail.root@web576-ec.mail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12835

>>>
Actually, there is a fic about that very subject - it's by Shanna Seanachai,
and although I forget the title, she's on ffn under that handle, so just
search for her and look at the
summaries. It hasn't gotten very far as of yet, but what's there is
promising for some good development. I will warn you, however, that it's
also slash (i.e. male/male romance).
<<<

Hey :) (I wrote a little bit more of it, Firebolt, by the way. Maybe you'll
see it soon).

Oh, and it's about Neville/DADA teacher, by the way, not the memory thing,
so... ^_^ I think Charmian might have gotten a little confused by that.

As for the Neville memory curse thing, I think people have mainly come to
that conclusion because of the thing with Bertha Jorkins - it's commented in
the book that Bertha was very forgetful, and it's because she had a memory
spell put on her (gar, forgot by who though - was it Voldemort? Or was that
after? Cant' check either, I loaned GoF out to someone). So someone (who
knows who?) drew a parallel between her and Neville, and wondered if maybe a
Memory Spell was put on Neville because as a small child he saw his parents
tortured - or it was put on him by the Death Eaters who tortured them, so
that he wouldn't recognize them...or similar situations...
Another idea some people go for is that he also had the Cruciatus Curse put
on him when his parents were tortured, though not as much as his parents -
and that his generally scatterbrained attitude is a side affect of that.
Whatever it is, I do love Neville. I can't help but get perfectly furious
when people go off with the idea that maybe Neville will become a Death
Eater in the fashion of Peter Pettigrew - they aren't anything alike!
Neville doesn't hang around with Harry and the gang because they have the
upperhand - because, let's face it, most of the time they don't - Draco
does. I think Neville is a moral degree higher than Wormtail. I don't think
he would ever ditch Harry.
Colin Creevy on the other hand....
(I'll just shut my mouth. ^_^)

shanna seanachai
envy.nu/snape


-----------------------------------------------
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 14:38:31 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:38:31 -0000
Subject: Neville's Memory, IDO the twins
In-Reply-To: <381840250.982932759519.JavaMail.root@web576-ec.mail.com>
Message-ID: <975sl7+9rgo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12836

Shanna wrote:
 
> As for the Neville memory curse thing, I think people have mainly 
come to
> that conclusion because of the thing with Bertha Jorkins - it's 
commented in
> the book that Bertha was very forgetful, and it's because she had a 
memory
> spell put on her (gar, forgot by who though - was it Voldemort? Or 
was that
> after? Cant' check either, I loaned GoF out to someone).

Oh wow--all is clear at last!  It was Crouch Sr., who put it on her 
because she saw Junior; Jr. says it was too strong and damaged her 
memory.  And I never, ever made the connection and realized that this 
explains the discrepancy between what Bagman is telling the press 
(Bertha's so forgetful) and what Sirius knows of her (she had a very 
good memory, esp. for gossip).  She really had gotten forgetful.

Do you really think Colin will go bad?  That would be sad.  I'm still 
hoping he'll calm down and become friends with our gang.

A few aspersions have been cast on the twins' grades of late.  Ron 
says from the git-go (H. Express scene in PS/SS) that they get good 
marks despite being the class clowns.  Three years later, they fail to 
get enough O.W.L.s to make Molly happy, but otherwise we haven't seen 
any sign that they aren't up to scratch academically.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"But won't they notice if you shut your ears in the oven door?"
"Dobby doubts it, sir."
                    --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
-----------------------------------------------------------------




From rgoertz at austin.rr.com  Fri Feb 23 14:52:33 2001
From: rgoertz at austin.rr.com (rgoertz at austin.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:52:33 -0000
Subject: Images from the movie
Message-ID: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12837

Hi folks,

  The Dark Horizons site has posted four images from the
movie.

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp3.jpg
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp4.jpg
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp5.jpg
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp6.jpg

Cheers,

Ryan




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Fri Feb 23 15:10:58 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:10:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
In-Reply-To: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010223100344.056803e0@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12838

At 02:52 PM 02/23/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>   The Dark Horizons site has posted four images from the
>movie.

I've described the scene's here:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_18_archive.html#2496456


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Fri Feb 23 15:11:13 2001
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:11:13 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
Message-ID: <87.73fd9e8.27c7d791@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12839

In a message dated 2/23/01 9:55:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
rgoertz at austin.rr.com writes:

<< http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp6.jpg >>
OMG these are so cool....I can't wait. AAAGGHHH

    Tessie



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Feb 23 15:17:18 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:17:18 -0000
Subject: Movie Trailer?
Message-ID: <975utu+scnc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12840

The movie that Dark Horizons says the first HP trailer is set to go 
with is called SEE SPOT RUN - it's a kids' film, also book based, as 
I understand it - and it's being released on MARCH SECOND (i.e. a 
WEEK from today)!

In other words, *if* this is true, we'll be able to see the first 
movie trailer in just one week (at least here in the US) - and I'm 
sure that adcritic will have it up quickly for our overseas friends 
(and I will be shocked if it's not shown in brit theaters some time 
in march as well)




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Fri Feb 23 15:26:03 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:26:03 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
References: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601c09dac$ef9db600$b12c07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12841

Pic 2: isn't Petunia supposed to be blond?

Apart from that the pics look pretty cool. I still think "Ron" doesn't
really look like Ron should look ("tall and gangly" - stocky were the twins,
remember???).
But Maggie Smith as McGonaggal looks much better thatn I would've pictured
her. Directly behind her, the guy with the medieval pink hairdo, is supposed
to be Quirrel, right? Looks like one of those "courtly love" bardic hats.

And that means next to him, the guy with the long black hair.... *drool,
drool* Ahem, what I wanted to say this must be Alan Rickman, right? Juchuu!
Although he *does* look sallow. But still - this made my day <g>

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Fri Feb 23 15:30:07 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:30:07 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie Trailer?
Message-ID: <95.7452d6d.27c7dbff@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12842

>>The movie that Dark Horizons says the first HP trailer is set to go 
 with is called SEE SPOT RUN - it's a kids' film, also book based, as 
 I understand it - and it's being released on MARCH SECOND (i.e. a 
 WEEK from today)!

Great... I hope it's also available on the Web so those of us not in the US 
can see it.

> adcritic will have it up quickly for our overseas friends 

Hope so.

Nick.



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 16:03:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:03:34 -0000
Subject: Movie Trailer?, FB
In-Reply-To: <95.7452d6d.27c7dbff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9761km+ok13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12843

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., NicMitUK at a... wrote:
> 
> Great... I hope it's also available on the Web so those of us not in 
the US 
> can see it.

Also those of us in the US who don't necessarily want to go see See 
Spot Run.  Besides, on adcritic we can see it again and again, 
analyzing and/or drooling...

An offer for a Love Potion showed up in my e-mailbox today.  Think I 
should report them to the MOM?

Also, Barnes and Noble informs me that Fantastic Beasts and Where to 
Find Them is a replica of Harry's own copy (he wrote his name on the 
front), with comments in the margins by him and his friends.  Too 
cool!  And here I was thinking I was only going to buy it for my 
sister.  Two copies each of FB and QTA, please.  D'you think there'll 
be a UK and US edition of them as well, or will they forego all that 
and just make one English edition?

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------
  "Ha, ha, ha," said Hermione sarcastically.  "Goblins 
don't need protection.  Haven't you been listening to 
what Professor Binns has been telling us about goblin 
rebellions?"
  "No," said Harry and Ron together.
                          --HP and the Goblet of Fire 
-------------------------------------------------------




From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Feb 23 16:22:14 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:22:14 -0500
Subject: What do we really *know* about Snape?
Message-ID: <007b01c09db4$cf2bc440$638f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 12844

Hi, folks --

I'm mulling over the possibility of writing a story about Snape, but first I
want to make sure that I've got all my details clear, and that I'm not
getting fact mixed up with rumour and conjecture.  So I'd be interested to
know if anybody's spotted anything about the character (that JKR herself has
revealed, either in the books themselves or in interviews about the books)
that I've missed.  Here's what I've got so far:

Name:  Severus Snape (middle name, if any, unknown)

Age:  Fortyish (since he was a contemporary of James Potter at Hogwarts in
the 70's)

Place of Birth:  unknown

Ethnic Background:  unknown

Family (living or dead):  unknown

Background:  a contemporary of James Potter, Sirius Black and Remus Lupin at
Hogwarts in the 70's.  Deeply jealous and resentful of James, nursed a
grudge against Sirius for nearly getting him killed, hated Lupin for being a
werewolf (and nearly killing him).

Hair:  black, greasy, shoulder-length

Eyes:  cold, fathomless black

Skin:  sallow
Other Physical Features:  tall, thin, hooked nose, clean-shaven, silky
voice, Dark Mark branded on left (?) arm, black cloak

Other Details:
- teaches Potions, but known to covet the Defense Against the Dark Arts
position
- Head of Slytherin House
- first meeting caused a pain in Harry's scar (was this just a reaction to
the then-unrevealed presence of the Dark Mark on Snape's arm, or something
more?)
- "knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts"
- former Death Eater, turned spy against Voldemort
- absolutely trusted by Dumbledore

Any further notable details to add?

Thanks,
--
Rebecca J. Bohner





From rlpenar at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 16:38:06 2001
From: rlpenar at yahoo.com (rlpenar at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:38:06 -0000
Subject: What do we really *know* about Snape?
In-Reply-To: <007b01c09db4$cf2bc440$638f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9763le+dd7g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12845

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
> Hi, folks --
> 
> I'm mulling over the possibility of writing a story about Snape, 
but first I
> want to make sure that I've got all my details clear, and that I'm 
not
> getting fact mixed up with rumour and conjecture.
> Other Details:
> - first meeting caused a pain in Harry's scar (was this just a 
reaction to
> the then-unrevealed presence of the Dark Mark on Snape's arm, or 
something
> more?)

> Thanks,
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner

I believe that the first meeting that caused the pain in Harry's scar 
was because Quirrell (with the almost shapeless V in his turban) was 
standing just behind/next to/nearby Snape. I think that Harry 
*thinks* it was Snape because of Snape's appearance and the vibe that 
he doesn't like Harry, but I think that it was Quirrell/Voldemort 
that caused the pain in Harry's scar.

Also, don't forget that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore...

Good luck, Becky




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 16:50:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:50:13 -0000
Subject: What do we really *know* about Snape?
In-Reply-To: <007b01c09db4$cf2bc440$638f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9764c5+qntb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12846

Rebecca wrote:

> Dark Mark branded on left (?) arm

I think so--check "The Egg and the Eye."

> Other Details:
> - teaches Potions, but known to covet the Defense Against the Dark 
Arts
> position

The students accept this as gospel, but it might just be one of those 
legends students pass down from year to year.

> - Head of Slytherin House

Not canon, but a common assumption by fans:  this means he was a 
Slytherin while in school.

> - first meeting caused a pain in Harry's scar (was this just a 
reaction to
> the then-unrevealed presence of the Dark Mark on Snape's arm, or 
something
> more?)

I don't think it was Snape who caused the pain; it was 
Quirrell/Voldemort, who was also sitting there.  The Snape conjecture 
on H's part was a red herring.  Or maybe it's a double red herring and 
it was really Snape causing it.

> - "knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts"

"Knew more curses when he got to Hogwarts than most kids in the 
seventh year" (approximate quote from SB, "Padfoot Returns")

> - former Death Eater, turned spy against Voldemort
> - absolutely trusted by Dumbledore
> 
> Any further notable details to add?

Once saved Harry's life, the ungrateful little wretch.

Is frequently compared to a bat, with varying levels of explicitness.

Hobby: Invents logic puzzles (PS).

Check out Neil's character summary of him from a couple weeks back.  
Happy writing!

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
Crabbe and Goyle chuckled trollishly.
             -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
---------------------------------------------




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Feb 23 17:09:31 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:09:31 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
References: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com> <002601c09dac$ef9db600$b12c07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <00ce01c09dbb$642586c0$3e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12847

Yes, Petunia is supposed to be "thin & blonde" But, then, I read somewhere that they were not using the "nine and three quarters" station platform, either. What is up with that?
Doreen
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dinah 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie


  Pic 2: isn't Petunia supposed to be blond?

  Apart from that the pics look pretty cool. I still think "Ron" doesn't
  really look like Ron should look ("tall and gangly" - stocky were the twins,
  remember???).
  But Maggie Smith as McGonaggal looks much better thatn I would've pictured
  her. Directly behind her, the guy with the medieval pink hairdo, is supposed
  to be Quirrel, right? Looks like one of those "courtly love" bardic hats.

  And that means next to him, the guy with the long black hair.... *drool,
  drool* Ahem, what I wanted to say this must be Alan Rickman, right? Juchuu!
  Although he *does* look sallow. But still - this made my day <g>

  ~ Dinah ~

  ICQ: 10 44 52 471
  YM: bludger_witch

  People are like stained-glass windows.
  They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
  but when the darkness sets in,
  their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

  ~Elizabeth K?bler-Ross


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From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 17:11:03 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:11:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What do we really *know* about Snape?
Message-ID: <F76hTrBoe2U8QVjp3b6000063c1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12848

------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Head of Slytherin House

Not canon, but a common assumption by fans:  this means he was a
Slytherin while in school.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ummm, it is so in canon, if that IS what you were talking about.  In book 4, 
Moody says "your head of house will be snape right?" or something along 
those lines, and i KNOW that it was mentioned before that...

Stephanie
Who is gonna be in huge trouble when she gets caught checking her email at 
school<vbeg>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Feb 23 12:33:01 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:33:01 EST5EDT
Subject: Pictures and a question
Message-ID: <1A31882E21@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12849

I just downloaded the pictures from Dark Horizons and made them 
my wallpaper here at work.

Has anyone seen any pictures yet of the scar?  I was curious how 
noticeable it was going be.

Also....Is anyone a bit scared of this movie?  I must admit I'm 
rather terrified.  One of my all-time favorite books is Harriet The Spy 
and when the movie came out...I cried.  It was horrible (in my very 
humble opinion) and didn't meet a single expectation I had.  Given, 
this has a much bigger budget and cast/crew...but....

But the pictures are awesome.  I've already had people walk by my 
desk and ask what they're from.  Of course, everyone here knows 
I'm a huge HP fan.  I've got that Muggles for Harry Potter poster on 
my wall and a bunch of little odds and ends sitting around my 
shelves.

Rachel Bray

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Feb 23 17:50:41 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:50:41 -0700
Subject: UH OH!  -- B&N/Schafer
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEHMDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12850

Barnes & Noble University is offering a free 12-part course, using the
infamous Schafer book.  Pre-requisites for the course listed as "Third-grade
reading level" -- hmmmm, I guess we could all qualify.  They (of course)
want you to buy a copy of Schafer's book to use during the studies, but
since all the lessons are just posted on the B&N website, you really don't
have to buy it, read it, or even look at it.  I've subscribed to other
courses there, and they're pretty simplistic.  Some of our
adventurous/curious members may wish to sign up for the heck of it!

http://www.barnesandnobleuniversity.com/

Click on HEALTH AND FAMILY

THEN on: Teaching Children Literature Using Harry Potter
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Description:
Is your child a Pottermaniac? Then he or she shares a common bond with
millions of other readers around the world. The popularity of J. K. Rowling
s Harry Potter books offers parents an exceptional opportunity to share
literature with their children. Using Beachams Sourcebooks for Teaching
Young Adult Literature: Exploring Harry Potter by Dr. Elizabeth D. Schafer
as a guide, this course will help you enrich your childs reading experience
as you investigate -- together -- the deeper layers of meaning in the first
novel, Harry Potter and the Sorcerers Stone. Youll learn about science,
mythology and legends, history, and magic as well as literary themes,
symbols, and character development. Most important, as you look into Harrys
world, youll get a better look at how your child sees his or her own world.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

SML

===========================================
Millions long for immortality who do not
know what to do with themselves on a rainy
Sunday afternoon.
                            - Susan Ertz
===========================================




From bbennett at joymail.com  Fri Feb 23 18:05:23 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:05:23 -0000
Subject: Pictures and a question
In-Reply-To: <1A31882E21@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <9768p3+44j1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12851

Thanks for the photo links! Hermione is prettier than I pictured and 
Ron may be a bit short, but I think everyone looks great (even 
Petunia as a brunette!). I hope Warner Brothers isn't as stingy with 
the photo stills as I suspect they will be - I love stuff like this. 
As for the Harry's scar, Rachel, if a photo comes available, I'm sure 
The Leaky Cauldron will hear about it ASAP (this is an excellent 
site, BK - I check it almost daily. Thank you for doing such a great 
job).

Rachel wrote: 
> Also....Is anyone a bit scared of this movie?  I must admit I'm 
> rather terrified.  One of my all-time favorite books is Harriet The 
Spy and when the movie came out...I cried.  It was horrible (in my 
very humble opinion) and didn't meet a single expectation I had.  
Given, this has a much bigger budget and cast/crew...but....

I'm less worried now that I've read the screenwriter interview at 
Ain't It Cool News. He really seems to feel the right actors and 
actresses were picked for the parts. It also helps to hear that JKR 
has had favorable things to say about the cast. 

Off to make a screensaver myself,
B. 





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Feb 23 18:26:37 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 23 Feb 2001 10:26:37 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] UH OH!  -- B&N/Schafer
Message-ID: <20010223182637.22753.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12852

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010223/cab942d4/attachment.ksh>

From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 18:33:33 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:33:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
Message-ID: <F98euAg0QhnoVWZYcmg0000a8f7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12853

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Wrote:

The Dark Horizons site has posted four images from the movie.
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp3.jpg
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp4.jpg
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp5.jpg
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp6.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so everyone look REALLY closely at the broom pic with harry and 
Hermione.  There is a kid standing kind of in the back by a broom, well look 
closely at his chest.  I am pretty positive that that is a Hfflepuff crest.  
Look at the badger.....

Stephanie
Who is nit-picky and obsessive compulsive<g>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Feb 23 13:48:50 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:48:50 EST5EDT
Subject: UH OH! -- B&N/Schafer
Message-ID: <1B75053464@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12854

In my fiction class here at Ohio State we just got done reading  
CoS and then did a comparative study with it and The Lion, The 
Witch and The Wardrobe (also the topic of my final paper).  
Someone mentioned the Shafer book and there were two or three 
people that cringed.  I personally haven't read it/glanced through it.  
So I don't have an opinion one way or another.  

But, when I was at Barnes and Noble a couple months ago buying 
the first two books in paperback for a friend of mine, this guy was 
looking at the Shafer book and a clerk from the store walked by 
and said "Honestly....I wouldn't buy that if I were you."  and walked 
off.  The guy looked at me with an eyebrow raised and said 
"Oooh....sounds mysterious."  :-)

Rachel Bray

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Fri Feb 23 19:43:21 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:43:21 -0000
Subject: Images from the movie
In-Reply-To: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <976egp+cd74@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12855

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rgoertz at a... wrote:
>   The Dark Horizons site has posted four images from the
> movie.

OMG. These look so colossally cool. <gush>. Each one, except for the 
Harry Ron one, say EXACTLY which scene from the book they are 
supposed to be. These are amazing. I so hope that the film will be as 
perfect as these descibe. The Harry Ron one is just so dramatic, just 
like you'd hope, Harry, the hero, with his mysterious dark thing 
going on. I'm losing coherent thought here....




Dai




From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Feb 23 19:50:50 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:50:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
Message-ID: <200102231952.f1NJqUC01347@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 12856

Oh, these made happy!  The picture of the Sorting scene is *eaxctly* how I 
pictured it!

Except...

Hermione's hair--they call that bushy?
Ron's height--he's *still* shorter than Harry!

But overall I am heartened.  It looks like they are at least trying to keep in 
the spirit of the books.

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 23 19:57:23 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:57:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts puzzle
References: <b7.bb40460.27c79582@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A96C0A2.E205E887@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12857

NicMitUK at aol.com wrote:

> I wonder if Asda will start selling it here in England  (Asda are now
> owned by Walmart).  I''ve not seen this design of jigsaw yet... but I
> have quite a few of the other designs, and games.... but alas, no
> quidditch card game yet
> - it's always out of stock!

Welcome back, Nick! And, O Ye American readers, please note the usage in
his post of the plural verb with singular-sounding subject, as we were
discussing a bit ago...."Asda are now owned." Substituting "Wal-Mart"
for "Asda," an American speaker would say "Walmart is now owned" or
"Walmarts are now owned."

Sorry, couldn't resist, I promise whenever I make it to England you can
all make fun of my "y'all" and "fixin' to" and "might oughta" and such.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 23 20:04:13 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:04:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
References: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A96C23C.6B8346A7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12858

rgoertz at austin.rr.com wrote:

>   The Dark Horizons site has posted four images from the
> movie.
>
> http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp3.jpg
> http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp4.jpg
> http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp5.jpg
> http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/hp6.jpg

I like the atmosphere of them--although the angle in hp4, the Dursleys,
has the actor playing Uncle Vernon looking alarmingly like Peter
Ustinov.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 23 20:14:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:14:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do we really *know* about Snape?
References: <007b01c09db4$cf2bc440$638f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <3A96C492.6DE5FBA6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12859

"Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote:

> Skin:  sallow
> Other Physical Features:  tall, thin, hooked nose, clean-shaven, silky
> voice, Dark Mark branded on left (?) arm, black cloak

Well, I think I've been told that the UK editions don't have the little illustrations heading each chapter, but I know I've seen one of Snape with moustache and beard. I noticed
because I, too, thought he was clean-shaven. Aha! Found it. PoA, p. 269 (Am), ch. 14, Snape's Grudge.

Why do we know he's clean-shaven? Steve?

Oh, and he wears black *robes,* not a black cloak. Get that vampire imagery out of your head.

--Amanda




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Fri Feb 23 20:21:05 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:21:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do we really *know* about Snape?
References: <007b01c09db4$cf2bc440$638f23cf@rebeccab> <3A96C492.6DE5FBA6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00fd01c09dd6$26d30660$bc2e07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12860

----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] What do we really *know* about Snape?


> "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote:
> > Skin:  sallow
> > Other Physical Features:  tall, thin, hooked nose, clean-shaven, silky
> > voice, Dark Mark branded on left (?) arm, black cloak

Did we forget the shoulder-lenght, greasy black hair and the black eyes?

BTW, where is discribed that he has a silky voice? I hadn't noticed that
before - and again Sev rises a few notches on the appreciation-ladder...

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 21:12:47 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:12:47 -0000
Subject: Another movie picture.
Message-ID: <976jof+mje7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12861

Sorry if this has been posted (I've been keeping up for the most 
part recently, so I'm almost positive that it hasn't), but there's 
another cute movie picture just posted at the official movie site:

http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/img/daily_prophet/HP_ltr_LG.jpg



Jen (who is *just* recognizing Fiona Shaw now that she can see her
"in action"... duh!)




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Feb 23 16:19:27 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:19:27 EST5EDT
Subject: erg....
Message-ID: <1DF7BD39CF@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12862

The only complaint I have about the pictures from the movie is that 
we can't see Alan Rickman at the front table as Snape!!!!

I WANNA SEE THIS GUY AS SNAPE!!!

And then again, I don't.  Because I don't want to have a "thing" for 
Snape and...well....I've really got one for Alan (especially after 
Sense and Sensibility).  *sigh*


Rachel Bray

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From bkdelong at pobox.com  Fri Feb 23 21:28:45 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:28:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another movie picture.
In-Reply-To: <976jof+mje7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010223162736.05768020@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12863

At 09:12 PM 02/23/2001 +0000, Jennifer Piersol wrote:
>Sorry if this has been posted (I've been keeping up for the most
>part recently, so I'm almost positive that it hasn't), but there's
>another cute movie picture just posted at the official movie site:
>
>http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/img/daily_prophet/HP_ltr_LG.jpg

Once again, I've added the "book scene":
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_18_archive.html#2501774

As well as the fact that Harry Melling is the actor playing Dudley Dursley.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Feb 23 21:28:46 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:28:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do we really *know* about Snape?
References: <007b01c09db4$cf2bc440$638f23cf@rebeccab> <3A96C492.6DE5FBA6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00b401c09de0$9f21c700$9c39acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 12864

> Why do we know [Snape] is clean-shaven?

Because if he had a beard or a moustache it would have been mentioned by
now.  They're rather hard to miss, and one of the first things you tend to
notice about a person.  We heard instantly about Hagrid's beard, and
Dumbledore's, when Harry first met them.  But although Harry frequently
takes note of Snape's sneering mouth and bad teeth, and of his greasy locks,
there is nary a word about facial hair.

> Oh, and he wears black *robes,* not a black cloak. Get that vampire
imagery out of your head.

Actually, it says "cloak" in STONE Ch. 8, so evidently he wears both black
robes and a black cloak when teaching.  But I find vampires to be tedious
and overdone, so I've honestly never imagined Snape as one.  I was surprised
to find that some people thought he might be, and I'll be even more
surprised if Rowling ever confirms it.  But I've been wrong before...
--
Rebecca




From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Feb 23 21:30:35 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:30:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do we really *know* about Snape?
References: <007b01c09db4$cf2bc440$638f23cf@rebeccab> <3A96C492.6DE5FBA6@texas.net> <00fd01c09dd6$26d30660$bc2e07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <00b501c09de0$a02cce60$9c39acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 12865

> Did we forget the shoulder-lenght, greasy black hair and the black eyes?

It was in my original message, but got snipped out of the replies.

> BTW, where is discribed that he has a silky voice? I hadn't noticed that
> before - and again Sev rises a few notches on the appreciation-ladder...

It's Rowling's favorite adjective when describing Snape's voice -- she uses
it so much it's almost overused.
--
Rebecca




From xine48 at ync.net  Fri Feb 23 21:33:02 2001
From: xine48 at ync.net (Christine Olson)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:33:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c09dbb$642586c0$3e14a3d1@doreen>
References: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com> <002601c09dac$ef9db600$b12c07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010223153144.01c97940@pop31.ync.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12866

At 11:09 AM 02/23/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>snip But, then, I read somewhere that they were not using the "nine and 
>three quarters" station platform, either. What is up with that?
>Doreen



well the intro to the website includes platform 9 3/4,  so I doubt they are 
not using it.


christine




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 21:53:15 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:53:15 -0000
Subject: Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
In-Reply-To: <20010222202911.19636.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <976m4b+tob5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12867

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Julie Smith <whimzical at y...> wrote:
>  OK, this is just a frivolous post. The questions are:
>   Which character would you most like to meet, and
> why?

Oh my!  How much fun is this?  The only problem is, I don't know how 
I'll narrow all these down to choose one!

Most like to meet....  I'm going to say Dumbeldore.  He's wise, he's 
wacky, he's my hero!

But I'd also like to meet Neville, and tell him how much I admire his 
perserverance, and that there are tons of us out here cheering for the 
underdog.
>   
>   Which character would you most like to be friends   
>   with, and why?

I think I'd have to say Hagrid.  He's kind, he's loving, he's 
uncomplicated, yet wise.  He's strong, and unwaveringly, fiercely 
loyal, and it would never be boring to visit him, because there'd 
always be some 'interestin' creature' nearby.

> 
>   Which character would you most like to be involved  
>   with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
>   date...
> 

Oh gosh.  Today I'm saying Remus.  He might be a little old for me, I 
never can get the timeline right in my head, but Lupin's inner 
struggles and quiet nobility totally turn my knees to jelly.  I 
imagine him to have a soft voice, the kind that you feel as much as 
you hear.  My mousepad has a picture of Lon Chaney Jr. on it as the 
Wolf Man.  My uncle gave it to me a couple of years ago, because when 
I was a little girl my cousins (boys, and older) used to make me watch 
old monster movies with them, and that was the one I liked.  Maybe I 
just have a thing for werewolves, I don't know.  I definitely have 
developped a tendency in the last year to fall for werewolf 
characters, anyway.

Oh - perfect first date...  With Remus...  that's hard.  Heck, tea in 
his office would be fine with me.  As long as I got to learn more 
about him, hear him talk, see his eyes, etc., I'd be fine.  Well, I 
also want to touch his hair, is that weird?


>   And, which character would you most like to be?

Be... who would I like to be...  
I'm tempted to say Hermione too, for similar reasons, but I just don't 
think I could pull it off.  I'm just not as diligent as she is.  I 
might ruin her grades!  I think I'll say Ginny, because I want to be a 
Weasley!
I want to live at the Burrow and laugh with Fred and George and watch 
Arthur tinker with his muggle toys and help degnome the garden.  Go to 
Hogwarts and see everything there, be as close to the trio's inner 
circle as possible, etc.  My inner child is stomping her foot and 
saying I should give being Hermione a shot, because she (my inner 
child) wants to marry a Weasley someday, and she sure can't do that if 
she's Ginny, but she's just going to have to live with it.

This is fun!
kimberly




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Feb 23 22:47:52 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:47:52 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another movie picture.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010223162736.05768020@brain-stream.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEPIDDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12868

Jen wrote: "Sorry if this has been posted (I've been keeping up for the most
part recently, so I'm almost positive that it hasn't), but there's another
cute movie picture just posted at the official movie site:
http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/img/daily_prophet/HP_ltr_LG.jpg"
B.K.: "Once again, I've added the "book scene":
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_18_archive.html#2501774

As well as the fact that Harry Melling is the actor playing Dudley Dursley."

In the book they are sitting in the kitchen, at the table when letters start
pouring in through the chimney. This picture does not show that! They are in
some kind of front / living room with no table. I have checked the letter
references and I am sure that not one of them is applicable to this picture.

I liked the earlier mentioned pictures. Though why Hermione, in the broom
picture, looks as if she has been punched I do not know. I think it is
probably a case of poor lighting, but she looks to have a black eye.



Simon (who is unsure if he is more worried about the movie now or happier
about it!)
--
"Welcome to my temporary abode, Slayer." the leader said with a sweeping
bow. "Allow me to introduce myself - I am Simon Branford." - Ginny The
Vampire Slayer - Season 1, Episode 3: The Curse Of Simon Branford by Keith
Fraser -
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=132489








From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 23:07:03 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:07:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible endings (was: Neville's Memory)
In-Reply-To: <9745l3+75t8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010223230703.4769.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12869


--- Trina <lj2d30 at gateway.net> wrote:

> Although it would be sweet to see him as DADA prof and have to work
> with Snape!  (but only if that whole self-confidence issue is
> worked out!)

You know, it just occured to me. JKR said that "one of the threesome
would become a professor, and it's not who you think," correct?
(paraphrasing, here.) In that case, we can't really count Neville as
"part of the threesome" unless things change in the next three books.
But maybe "it's not who you'd expect" doesn't refer to the person,
but ALSO the group. 
So, what other threesomes do we know? Draco, Crabbe and Goyle come to
mind. What if Draco is who she means? Or if it's really unexpected,
it turns out Goyle really DOES read Proust and ends up a hidden
genius at Astronomy or something random of the sort? It's worth a
thought, since I think ANY of the three-some becoming a professor
would just be cheesy. 

Wishing that Spring 2002 wasn't quite so far off - Teek

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 23:13:01 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:13:01 -0000
Subject: Another movie picture.
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEPIDDAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <976qpt+ap3g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12870

RE: Simon's statement about letters supposed to be flying out of the 
chimney (sp?) in the kitchen, verses the living room...

You know, this could also cause some problems later on (I'm thinking 
specifically GOF, here)... if there are letters coming out of their 
*fireplace*... they're going to have to do something after this 
letter incident, like say, "Looks like we'll have to board this thing 
up and install an electric fire now."  I suppose Warner Bros just 
decided that the average American family just wasn't used to having a 
chimney of any kind in the kitchen.  Imagine! ;)

Jen (who now that Simon has mentioned it, has started to worry again)




From ryndavis10 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 23:26:25 2001
From: ryndavis10 at yahoo.com (Ryan Davis)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:26:25 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Memory, IDO the twins
References: <975sl7+9rgo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007c01c09df0$0a5aab40$0300000a@ryan>

No: HPFGUIDX 12871


  ===Amy Z Wrote===
  A few aspersions have been cast on the twins' grades of late.  Ron 
  says from the git-go (H. Express scene in PS/SS) that they get good 
  marks despite being the class clowns.  Three years later, they fail to 
  get enough O.W.L.s to make Molly happy, but otherwise we haven't seen 
  any sign that they aren't up to scratch academically.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Considering that Molly had two sons who did exceptionally well at HW, her expectations on G & F may not be entirely fair to them.  Ron states that they get good marks. That, said by Ron's, who is not at the top of the class either, could mean that they are passing with average marks like any other student.

Ryan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ryndavis10 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 23:42:37 2001
From: ryndavis10 at yahoo.com (Ryan Davis)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:42:37 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do we really *know* about Snape?
References: <007b01c09db4$cf2bc440$638f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <00bd01c09df2$4ddab840$0300000a@ryan>

No: HPFGUIDX 12872


> Other Details:
> - teaches Potions, but known to covet the Defense Against the Dark Arts
> position
I believe it is only the Students that have said that he has been coveting
the DADA position.  While it is true that Snape was heavy into the Dark Arts
in school, and he did join the DE, he has not become the DADA instructor
when the opportunity arose these last 4 times.  Whether that is because
Dumbledoor has not offered the position to him, knowing Snape's past
dealings with the Dark Arts, or wether Snape has just not requested it, I
don't believe anyone knows.  But the point of this rambling is that IIRC
only students, and maybe Hagrid, have commented on that topic.

> - first meeting caused a pain in Harry's scar (was this just a reaction to
> the then-unrevealed presence of the Dark Mark on Snape's arm, or something
> more?)

Was when he saw Snape sitting at the head table after being sorted in SS/PS?
I know I need to research before I spout off but I am at work now and my
books are at home.  If it was at that instance, IIRC Snape was speaking with
Quirll w/turbin.  IMO Voldie was under the turbin even at that time and may
have been able to sense HP there.  This is my opinion and would love comment
on it.




_________________________________________________________
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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sat Feb 24 00:20:29 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:20:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible endings (was: Neville's Memory)
Message-ID: <20010224002030.81B2036FA@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12873

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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sat Feb 24 00:42:43 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:42:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Intimacy Issues - Diggory - Map - Frivolity -
Message-ID: <20010224004244.9949036FA@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12874

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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 01:41:03 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:41:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another movie picture.
References: <976qpt+ap3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c09e04$7705cae0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12875


But, actually, it makes sense---Mr. Weasley has to blast the fireplace open
because they get stuck in it when they come to call (with Toffees in their
pockets...heehee).
______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer Piersol" <jenP_97 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 5:13 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another movie picture.


> RE: Simon's statement about letters supposed to be flying out of the
> chimney (sp?) in the kitchen, verses the living room...
>
> You know, this could also cause some problems later on (I'm thinking
> specifically GOF, here)... if there are letters coming out of their
> *fireplace*... they're going to have to do something after this
> letter incident, like say, "Looks like we'll have to board this thing
> up and install an electric fire now."  I suppose Warner Bros just
> decided that the average American family just wasn't used to having a
> chimney of any kind in the kitchen.  Imagine! ;)
>
> Jen (who now that Simon has mentioned it, has started to worry again)
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
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>
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>
>
>
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>




From john at walton.to  Sat Feb 24 01:02:37 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:02:37 +0000
Subject: Darkhorizons movie pictures deleted? (was: Another movie picture)
In-Reply-To: <976qpt+ap3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6BCB8AD.C81A%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 12876

I don't seem to be able to access them directly, and they appear to have
been deleted from the directory. Was anyone Hermionic enough to download
them to their computer, and if so, could you upload them to the YahGroop
file area?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files

Cheers,

--John
________________________________________________

John "Diet Coke Addict" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47

=| The Moderators say: "Do you want a better career? Sure, we all do. So
read the Welcome Message and Make More Money!"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/%20welcomemessage.txt
________________________________________________




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Feb 24 01:16:12 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:16:12 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions about the Stouffer stuff..(warning-- kind of long)
In-Reply-To: <971nbg+dnrc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010223170247.037f7260@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12877

At 12:43 AM 2/22/01 +0000, Kelley wrote:
>Stouffer claims there was demand for her book; wouldn't it be
>available in public libraries?  I've not tried looking, but is there
>some reason it would not be available?

My understanding is that her books were self-publsihed (i.e. she
ran off copies at Kinko's and distributed at local K-Marts).  So not
only do her books probably have no ISBN/Library of Congress
designation, but it seems highly improbable that JKR ever set
eyes on them.

BTW I invite everyone read my page of rebuttals to Stouffer's
charges: http://www.mindspring.com/~daveh47/JKRvsNKS.html



                                                 -- Dave




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Sat Feb 24 01:26:39 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:26:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Darkhorizons movie pictures deleted? (was: Another movie picture)
In-Reply-To: <B6BCB8AD.C81A%john@walton.to>
References: <976qpt+ap3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010223202215.05620770@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12878

At 01:02 AM 02/24/2001 +0000, John Walton wrote:
>I don't seem to be able to access them directly, and they appear to have
>been deleted from the directory. Was anyone Hermionic enough to download
>them to their computer, and if so, could you upload them to the YahGroop
>file area?

The Harry Potter Galleries still have them. I'm guessing because they're in 
Germany that it will be a tad tougher to take it down.

http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/mgallery16.htm

My smaller versions are still online but I have a feeling I'll be getting a 
letter soon:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_18_archive.html#2496456

I'm really disappointed that WB has chosen to make people take the pictures 
offline - they're really making fans happy.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Feb 24 01:52:29 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:52:29 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Darkhorizons movie pictures deleted? (was: Another movie picture)
In-Reply-To: <B6BCB8AD.C81A%john@walton.to>
References: <976qpt+ap3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010223174852.02d5bdb0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12879

At 01:02 AM 2/24/01 +0000, John Walton wrote:
>Was anyone Hermionic enough to download them to their computer...?

Why is this "Hermionic"?  I can just hear her:

Hermoine: Oooooo, Harry, you can't download stills from a copyrighted
                   Muggle movie!  It's against the law!

Ron: Put a sock in it, Hermione.  So this is a *computer* eh?  Cool...!



                                                 -- Dave




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Feb 24 02:18:24 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:18:24 -0000
Subject: I'm new to this group...
Message-ID: <9775lg+pj4a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12880

Hello everyone!
 I'm new to this group and I'm looking forward to chatting with other 
grownups about HP.  Not too many people I know want to sit around and 
talk about Harry as much as I do.  

I might take a bit to get the hang of the discussion because I'm new 
to the whole email chat group thing, but I can't wait to add my 
thoughts (I have some good theories!)

J




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Feb 24 02:32:40 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:32:40 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid the Hale and Hearty - character summary
In-Reply-To: <003b01c09abe$89753ec0$cb60063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010219215557.02a7fe90@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12881

Some comments about my favorite character!:

At 09:54 PM 2/19/01 +0000, Michelle Apostolides wrote:
>The most amazing thing about Hagrid is that he is extremely wise.

He's like Edith Bunker in that way.  His childlike naivet? makes him
seem a "dingbat" to those of narrowness of mind.  But he has much
wisdom and insight.

>1 ) What makes Hagrid the right person for Dumbledore to send him as the
>envoy from the wizarding world to tell harry of his Heritage ? Why not
>professor McGonagall or the great man himself ?

Because, as I think someone else pointed out, he can be intimidating
to the Muggles without using magic.

>2 ) Given how people feel about Giants, do you think that JKR uses him
>as a way of making a comment about racism.

She uses a lot of things to comment on racism: Giants, Werewolves,
"Mudbloods", Death Eaters = KKK, etc.

>3 ) We see how Hagrid reacts to protect Dumbledore, alarmingly so in the
>case of his threat to Karkaroff in GOF.  Is he a loose cannon ?

Yeah, a bit.  But then, so is Sirius...

>4 ) Hagrid and Drink - is this going to prove to be another part in his
>downfall ?

Downfall?? No!!! It's bad enough that so many think *Ron* is long for
this world...!

>5 ) What do you think the relationship between Dumbledore and Hagrid has
>been ? Hagrid always appears respectful, but Dumbledore has stuck up for
>him on more than one occasion. What do you think Dumbledore sees in
>Hagrid ?

A good, kind man who got screwed big time (by Riddle)?

>6 ) Is Hagrid a really powerful Wizard whose esteem has been lowered by
>wrongful expulsion from Hogwarts ?

Well, I suppose we'll never know unless Hagrid is reinstated as a student
(and I think they should, now that he's been proved innocent!)...



                                                 -- Dave




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 24 02:27:03 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:27:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kitchen fireplace?
References: <976qpt+ap3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A971BF6.BCEC435C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12882

Jennifer Piersol wrote:

> I suppose Warner Bros just decided that the average American family
> just wasn't used to having achimney of any kind in the kitchen.
> Imagine! ;)

Well, I must admit it never occurred to me. Fireplaces are for sitting
in front of, on the couch, and my couch doesn't fit into the kitchen.
Actually, in Texas, eleven months out of the year fireplaces are for
holding an attractive array of candles, books, etc.--a little low shelf.

--Amanda, whose fireplace-less house growing up gave rise to many
inventive ideas of how Santa gets in


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Feb 24 02:38:58 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:38:58 -0000
Subject: Hagrid the Hale and Hearty - character summary
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010219215557.02a7fe90@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9776s2+88b8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12883

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> Some comments about my favorite character!:
> 
> At 09:54 PM 2/19/01 +0000, Michelle Apostolides wrote:
> >The most amazing thing about Hagrid is that he is extremely wise.
> 
> He's like Edith Bunker in that way.  His childlike naivet? makes him
> seem a "dingbat" to those of narrowness of mind.  But he has much
> wisdom and insight.
> 
> >1 ) What makes Hagrid the right person for Dumbledore to send him 
as the
> >envoy from the wizarding world to tell harry of his Heritage ? Why 
not
> >professor McGonagall or the great man himself ?
> 
> Because, as I think someone else pointed out, he can be intimidating
> to the Muggles without using magic.
> 
> >2 ) Given how people feel about Giants, do you think that JKR uses 
him
> >as a way of making a comment about racism.
> 
> She uses a lot of things to comment on racism: Giants, Werewolves,
> "Mudbloods", Death Eaters = KKK, etc.
> 
> >3 ) We see how Hagrid reacts to protect Dumbledore, alarmingly so 
in the
> >case of his threat to Karkaroff in GOF.  Is he a loose cannon ?
> 
> Yeah, a bit.  But then, so is Sirius...
> 
> >4 ) Hagrid and Drink - is this going to prove to be another part in 
his
> >downfall ?
> 
> Downfall?? No!!! It's bad enough that so many think *Ron* is long 
for
> this world...!
> 
> >5 ) What do you think the relationship between Dumbledore and 
Hagrid has
> >been ? Hagrid always appears respectful, but Dumbledore has stuck 
up for
> >him on more than one occasion. What do you think Dumbledore sees in
> >Hagrid ?
> 
> A good, kind man who got screwed big time (by Riddle)?
> 
> >6 ) Is Hagrid a really powerful Wizard whose esteem has been 
lowered by
> >wrongful expulsion from Hogwarts ?
> 
> Well, I suppose we'll never know unless Hagrid is reinstated as a 
student
> (and I think they should, now that he's been proved innocent!)...
> 
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave

Hi - is this how I reply?

Anyway, I was thinking that Hagrid was sent to tallk to the giants 
because he is a half giant.  He also may get to see his mother again.

I am wondering if somehow Hagrid's loyalty will be tested once he gets 
in contact with the giants (his loyalty is almost blind and 
unquestioning towards Dumbledore at times).

I'd like him to be allowed to use his wand again, though.  He ain't no 
dummy when it comes to magic (remember when he met the Dursleys?).


                                               *J




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Feb 24 02:43:58 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:43:58 -0000
Subject: Darkhorizons movie pictures deleted? (was: Another movie picture)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010223174852.02d5bdb0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <97775e+rnh8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12884

re: removing pictures from web sites

I'm not surprised. I just read through the terms of use statement on 
the HP site (now there's a riveting bit of reading for you) and it 
clearly states that no material may be taken from their site and used 
on another web site, and at least one of those pictures was on their 
site. So that means we can't put them in the HP4GU files section 
either, I would imagine.

You may, however, use their pictures on one computer for personal 
enjoyment, so if you can still GET the pictures somewhere, you're 
allowed to have them on your own computer. You just can't put them on 
a web page etc. without their express permission. And how likely do 
you think it is that anyone will get that permission? I don't think 
I'll even ask. Don't need 'em on the Lexicon anyhow.

I sure would like to include some of those little chapter artwork 
bits by Mary Grandpre, though. I have to fax WB my request one of 
these days. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has never gotten a letter from WB and is feeling neglected
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Feb 24 02:52:47 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:52:47 -0000
Subject: movie picture of the Sorting/number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <3A96C23C.6B8346A7@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9777m0+bvqo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12885

Looking at the Sorting picture:

How many teachers could there be at that head table? I figure there 
are probably two spots that we can't see between Quirrell and 
Dumbledore, and there Snape and some other guy (Flitwick?)beyond 
Quirrell toward the outside, which makes a total of 6 in the visible 
expanse of table: unknown (Flitwick?), Snape, Quirrell, (hidden), 
(hidden), Dumbledore. Since we know Albus sits in the middle of the 
table, does that mean that there are only 11 teachers at the head 
table? That ties in with the number Harry sees when he looks along 
the table at the Start of Term Feast in GF. There is no second table 
behind the first. So the total number of teachers is very small, at 
least in the movie. That's one more reason to suspect that the number 
of students is much less than 1000, as JKR mentioned once.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a page about the number of students at Hogwarts
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 03:39:09 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:39:09 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie (and an introduction of myself)
Message-ID: <F46TCyCNJcVqxTOu0t80000fd3e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12886

Well, firstly, I'd like to say hi to everyone. I'm new to this list, and 
have been lurking for a couple of days to get a feel for the list. A bit of 
background. I'm Liz, and I'm an 18 year old uni student from Brisbane, 
Australia. I guess it goes without saying that I love Harry Potter :)
So, here goes my first post/reply to the list.
***************
>Ok, so everyone look REALLY closely at the broom pic with harry and
>Hermione.  There is a kid standing kind of in the back by a broom, well 
>look
>closely at his chest.  I am pretty positive that that is a Hufflepuff 
>crest.
>Look at the badger.....

I'm inclined to agree with you on that. I can't quite make out the picture, 
but it's certainly yellow (Hufflepuff colour, correct?), and its also quite 
different from the top bit of the crest we can see on Hermiones robes, which 
is red (Gryffindor). I don't recall anything about house crests on robes in 
the books though???

Liz
---
Still trying to decide which HP quote to use for my signature
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Feb 24 03:52:29 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:52:29 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] movie picture of the Sorting/number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <9777m0+bvqo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCEIIDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12887

You can bet that they didn't hire 1000 children as extras for Hogwarts, LOL!
Too much money, too much hassle.  It'll be interesting to see the crowds in
the stands at the Quidditch matches -- I think they could hire more kids for
one or two days -- around here they pay something modest for crowd extras.

SML

===========================================
Millions long for immortality who do not
know what to do with themselves on a rainy
Sunday afternoon.
                            - Susan Ertz
===========================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Vander Ark [mailto:vderark at bccs.org]
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 7:53 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] movie picture of the Sorting/number of teachers


Looking at the Sorting picture:

How many teachers could there be at that head table? I figure there
are probably two spots that we can't see between Quirrell and
Dumbledore, and there Snape and some other guy (Flitwick?)beyond
Quirrell toward the outside, which makes a total of 6 in the visible
expanse of table: unknown (Flitwick?), Snape, Quirrell, (hidden),
(hidden), Dumbledore. Since we know Albus sits in the middle of the
table, does that mean that there are only 11 teachers at the head
table? That ties in with the number Harry sees when he looks along
the table at the Start of Term Feast in GF. There is no second table
behind the first. So the total number of teachers is very small, at
least in the movie. That's one more reason to suspect that the number
of students is much less than 1000, as JKR mentioned once.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a page about the number of students at Hogwarts
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon



Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Feb 24 03:57:03 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:57:03 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie (and an introduction of myself)
In-Reply-To: <F46TCyCNJcVqxTOu0t80000fd3e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEIIDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12888

Welcome to all new members!

It may be a Hufflepuff emblem, but the first flying lesson, where Hermione
tried to get Harry NOT to fly after Draco, was with the Slytherins (or the
Slytherin if you're British).  What are Hufflepuffs doing there?

Interesting also is the fact that Maggie Smith as McGonagall appears to be
the only teacher wearing a pointed hat.  Even Dumbledore seems to be wearing
some kind of cap, rather than a pointy hat.  I'm glad that everyone isn't
wearing those hats like it says they do in the books -- they'd just look
silly, IMO.

SML


Liz wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with you on that. I can't quite make out the picture,
but it's certainly yellow (Hufflepuff colour, correct?), and its also quite
different from the top bit of the crest we can see on Hermiones robes, which
is red (Gryffindor). I don't recall anything about house crests on robes in
the books though???

Liz
---




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Sat Feb 24 04:40:52 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:40:52 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP in the best sellers list
Message-ID: <01C09E78.6083FA20.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12889

Heidi, Penny et al

In NSW the 'quality' paper <hem!> the Sydney Morning Herald has had GOF in the 
general/adult fiction best sellers list now for 28 weeks. Most (if not all) of 
that at No. 1. Last weekend they also printed a children's top 5, the HP series 
were top of that too.

I know we are a little colonial backwater but at least we recognise a great 
book when we see one <bg>

storm





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb 24 04:55:37 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 04:55:37 -0000
Subject: Diggory 
In-Reply-To: <20010224004244.9949036FA@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <977es9+bmre@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12890

> >Kelley wrote:
> >Does anyone besides me think perhaps Mr. Diggory will go dark now 
that he's lost his much-loved son, and that overly-hyped (to him) 
Harry Potter was involved?<
> 
> Catlady wrote:
> >I don't think Amos would go dark for vengeance on Harry, but it 
occurred to me that he might be seduced to the Dark by promises of 
bringing his son back to life.<
>
> Star wrote: 
> I don't think Amos would go over to the dark side b/c it was the 
dark side that killed his son so he would want revenge on the dark 
side and not Harry, he understands that it wasn't Harry's fault.  As 
to Amos being seduced to the dark side by promises of his son's life 
returned Amos is smart enough to know that magic can't bring back the 
dead(I think it says so in the book and if not I know JK said so in 
either a chat or the movie I saw about the HP books) <<<<<<<<<<<<<

Wow, you both make good points.  Though I could see Diggory's grief 
and anger being directed at Harry, and Diggory turning dark due to 
this, the idea that Vold could seduce him with promises of getting 
his son back is intriguing.  And, though, as Star says magic can't 
bring the dead back, perhaps dark magic has a way to do this.  Sort 
of a monkey's paw type of thing.  Or, it cannot be done, and Vold 
knows this, but is still able to convince Amos that he can...  Hmm, 
very interesting.

Kelley





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 24 05:20:16 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:20:16 -0000
Subject: SML's sig
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEHMDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <977gag+g276@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12891

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
signed off:
> SML
> ===========================================
> Millions long for immortality who do not
> know what to do with themselves on a rainy
> Sunday afternoon.
>                             - Susan Ertz
> ===========================================

Rainy Sunday afternoons are perfect for lying down in bed with a cup 
of tea and a good book (or a magazine will do) and at least one 
purring cat, and falling asleep instead of reading the good book. The 
only problem is that there are so many other things that one wants to 
do (including reading that book) and can't do during the work week!!!




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb 24 05:36:40 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:36:40 -0000
Subject: Questions about the Stouffer stuff..(warning-- kind of long)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010223170247.037f7260@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <977h98+g7m6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12892

> At 12:43 AM 2/22/01 +0000, Kelley wrote:
> >Stouffer claims there was demand for her book; wouldn't it be
> >available in public libraries?  I've not tried looking, but is 
there some reason it would not be available?
> 
> Dave wrote:
> My understanding is that her books were self-publsihed (i.e. she
> ran off copies at Kinko's and distributed at local K-Marts).  So not
> only do her books probably have no ISBN/Library of Congress
> designation, but it seems highly improbable that JKR ever set
> eyes on them.
> 
> BTW I invite everyone read my page of rebuttals to Stouffer's
> charges: http://www.mindspring.com/~daveh47/JKRvsNKS.html
 
Hi Dave.  I did go to your site, and agree with you completely.  I 
thought all that stuff, too.  Because of these reasons, I figured 
Stouffer's problem must be that all the instances she listed (all the 
correct ones, anyway) were found in ~both~ their works.  See what I 
mean?  The "Oz" books may have several instances in common, but 
Stouffer's and JKR's have almost all of them in common.  I'm not 
siding with Stouffer at all; I think she's a full-of-crap 
opportunist.  What I'm trying to understand is if her case is based 
on this entire list of 'similarities' between her's and JKR's works, 
or if her whole case hinges on 'muggle'.  And, you know, the 
governor/friar thing, perhaps there's a governor in her book, and she 
put the terms in the wrong columns (I'm thinking of the "Fat 
Friar").  Plus, how can she compare Elixir of Life to her Well of 
Desire?  Not one of her lawyers has explained that JKR's is from 
alchemy and the Philosopher's Stone?  I'm so baffled by all this.  Is 
this woman an American?  Oh, and good grief:  went to Kinko's and 
talked her local K-marts into selling her books?!  Is she kidding?  
There is the bizarre chance that JKR could have seen this woman's 
work, but seriously, what are the odds?  How on earth could she ever 
hope to prove something like that?  I'm so tired of these people who 
come crawling out of the woodwork, hoping to make an easy buck from 
being a nuisance.  Okay, sorry for the rant guys.  Thanks for the 
reply, Dave.  Appreciate it.  
                            
Kelley                      




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Feb 24 05:45:04 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:45:04 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SML's sig
In-Reply-To: <977gag+g276@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEIJDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12893

Ah yes... Those of us who are compulsive readers know that immortality is
necessary in order to find time to read all the books we want to read.  I
never could understand people who say they are bored and have nothing to do.
I wonder if I can have the Harry Potter books buried with me so I'll have
something to read on those long dark nights underground...(flash to George
Hamilton as Dracula (Love at First Bite), with the little reading lamp
inside his coffin).

 >:P
SML



-----Original Message-----
From: Rita Winston [mailto:catlady at wicca.net]
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:20 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SML's sig


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...>
signed off:
> SML
> ===========================================
> Millions long for immortality who do not
> know what to do with themselves on a rainy
> Sunday afternoon.
>                             - Susan Ertz
> ===========================================

Rainy Sunday afternoons are perfect for lying down in bed with a cup
of tea and a good book (or a magazine will do) and at least one
purring cat, and falling asleep instead of reading the good book. The
only problem is that there are so many other things that one wants to
do (including reading that book) and can't do during the work week!!!





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 24 05:48:49 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:48:49 -0800
Subject: Silky Voice
Message-ID: <3A974B40.A7DED1DA@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12894

PoA:
"Detention, Weasley," Snape said silkily,
"Up to the castle?" said Snape silkily.

SS:
"Be that as it may, fighting is against Hogwarts rules, Hagrid," said
Snape silkily. "Five points from Gryffindor, Weasley,

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 24 06:02:12 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 06:02:12 -0000
Subject: Ginny Weasley-Weasley
In-Reply-To: <976m4b+tob5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <977ip4+pn4n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12895

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:


> Be... who would I like to be...  
> (snip) Ginny, because I want to be a Weasley! (snip)
> My inner child is stomping her foot and saying I should give being
> Hermione a shot, because she (my inner child) wants to marry a
> Weasley someday, and she sure can't do that if she's Ginny, but
> she's just going to have to live with it.

I suspect that Ginny CAN marry a Weasley. No, not one of her 
brothers. In SS, Draco said "Think my name's funny, do you? No need 
to ask who you are. My father told me all the Weasleys have red hair, 
freckles, and more children than they can afford."

ALL the Weasleys. That strongly suggests that Arthur had several 
siblings, not just Uncle Bilius who died of seeing a Grim, and that 
Arthur's father also had several siblings. I am constantly irritated 
that JKR never shows Ron having a pack of uncles, aunts, and cousins, 
nor explain away that they were all killed by Voldemort and 
Grindelwald before him.

If Arthur had a brother, Bilius, who died of seeing a Grim before he 
had had any children (in PoA, Ron refers to his Uncle Bilius, but not 
whether he was uncle on father's side or mother's side) and a sister, 
Carrie, who was killed by the Death Eaters (Carrie is in my fic), he 
could still have another brother, David (and sister Edith and brother 
Fred and sister Gemma), who had a pack of children including sons who 
would be Ginny's first cousins. In some USA states it is illegal for 
first cousins to marry and in others it is legal.

If Arthur's father's father's had another son (Arthur's uncle) who 
had a son (Arthur's first cousin), who had a son (Ginny's second 
cousing), that would be a Weasley she could marry even if first 
cousin marriage is illegal.





From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Feb 24 06:03:46 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:03:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
References: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com> <002601c09dac$ef9db600$b12c07d5@oemcomputer> <5.0.2.1.0.20010223153144.01c97940@pop31.ync.net>
Message-ID: <003301c09e27$912666a0$3a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12896

Not being a "veteran Harry Potter fan" like most of you, I do not know how reliable this source is. I did read this... 

Doreen

http://www.empireonline.co.uk/news/news.asp?2861

"The first picture shows the steam train representing Hogwarts Express. Although the book clearly states that Harry gets on the train at platform nine and three quarters, artistic licence was taken and the train was parked at platform four with normal passenger trains packed with extras at platforms three and five. Hundreds of children packed the platform by the steam train dressed in their Hogwarts uniform - some with felt hats, others with cloaks. Beside the train was luggage trolleys heaped with bags and trunks, plus a collection of all-important broomsticks wrapped up in brown paper. "
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Christine Olson 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 3:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie


  At 11:09 AM 02/23/2001 -0600, you wrote:
  >snip But, then, I read somewhere that they were not using the "nine and 
  >three quarters" station platform, either. What is up with that?
  >Doreen



  well the intro to the website includes platform 9 3/4,  so I doubt they are 
  not using it.


  christine


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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb 24 08:30:47 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:30:47 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie (the train scene)
References: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com> <002601c09dac$ef9db600$b12c07d5@oemcomputer> <5.0.2.1.0.20010223153144.01c97940@pop31.ync.net> <003301c09e27$912666a0$3a14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <005a01c09e3c$17005ce0$5c3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12897

Doreen said:

> Not being a "veteran Harry Potter fan" like most of you, I do not know how
reliable this source is. I did read this...

> http://www.empireonline.co.uk/news/news.asp?2861

"The first picture shows the steam train representing Hogwarts Express.
Although the book clearly states that Harry gets on the train at platform
nine and three quarters, artistic licence was taken and the train was parked
at platform four with normal passenger trains packed with extras at
platforms three and five. <snip>"

My comments:

Although the train is described as being parked at platform four in
actuality, I imagine that the studio will turn it into the hidden Platform 9
and 3/4 by the magic of special effects.  This is such a significant detail
that I can't imagine they would simply ignore it.  I would be very alarmed
if poetic license stretched that far (still wondering about Petunia's and
Dudley's dark hair). Also, a steam train full of fledgling magic-doers
sitting alongside the regular passenger trains would create quite a stir, so
they can't be implying that it would be in full view of Muggle passengers.

I can't tell from this picture whether this was actually King's Cross
Station.  It looks a lot like it, but there isn't enough detail for me to be
sure.  If so, I'm surprised they managed to film these scenes without
holding up the regular traffic... perhaps the people on the other trains
weren't Muggle extras, but Muddled commuters?  To be honest, we wouldn't
think anything of a huge delay.  "Filming the inaugural departure of crowds
of cinematic witch-children" is as good an excuse as "leaves affecting track
adhesion" or "the wrong kind of snow" as a reason for delayed trains.

The train looks a lot like the one they used for the launch of GoF last year
(but given a coat of red paint.  It was - duh! - maroon when they hired it
for that event).  Some of you may recall the report that Nick and I did on
that launch?  They used Platform One for that, but they did slap up a
makeshift notice saying Platform 9 and 3/4... we weren't fooled though:  we
guessed it wasn't real!!  BTW, Platforms 9 and 10 have very boring
frontages, being later additions to the station.  Nick posted a picture at
some point, but it may have been lost during the transfer from Yahoo to
eGroups.

Neil

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
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"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

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From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Feb 24 09:03:26 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:03:26 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
In-Reply-To: <F46TCyCNJcVqxTOu0t80000fd3e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEAADEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 12898

Liz: "I'm inclined to agree with you on that. I can't quite make out the
picture, but it's certainly yellow (Hufflepuff colour, correct?), and its
also quite different from the top bit of the crest we can see on Hermiones
robes, which is red (Gryffindor). I don't recall anything about house crests
on robes in the books though???"

To muddy the waters a bit more. He is wearing a tie that seems to be
identical to the one that Hermione and the boys are wearing. I.e. gold and
red - the Gryffindor colours. The crest on Hermione's robes is the same as
the one on Harry's in the picture of him and Ron. Even there it is difficult
to make out what exactly it is.

House colours:
Slytherin - Green and Silver
Ravenclaw - Blue and Bronze (?)
Hufflepuff - Yellow and Black


None of these are right for the tie on the person in question. We also
notice that the sorting hat picture shows Hermione with a black tie and no
crest, suggesting that they are added later (magically after people have
been sorted?).



Steve: "How many teachers could there be at that head table? I figure there
are probably two spots that we can't see between Quirrell and Dumbledore,
and there Snape and some other guy (Flitwick?)beyond Quirrell toward the
outside, which makes a total of 6 in the visible expanse of table: unknown
(Flitwick?), Snape, Quirrell, (hidden), (hidden), Dumbledore. Since we know
Albus sits in the middle of the table, does that mean that there are only 11
teachers at the head table? That ties in with the number Harry sees when he
looks along the table at the Start of Term Feast in GF. There is no second
table behind the first. So the total number of teachers is very small, at
least in the movie. That's one more reason to suspect that the number of
students is much less than 1000, as JKR mentioned once."

I decided that being generous on the number of teachers we could possibly
get to around 20 at the head table. This is the start of year feast so most
of them will be there, with the exception of Trelawney (and her foggy inner
eye). Still no where near the 100 that you would need for a school that
side, when they are mainly taught in class sizes of 10.



"Jen (who now that Simon has mentioned it, has started to worry again)"

Sorry - didn't mean to get people worried. I am already worried and whenever
I see some of the pictures I seem to be able to find faults with them that I
feel should be pointed out.



Simon
--
Moderator of the HPforGrownUps-ChatScripts Group.
HPforGrownUps is the place for the best weekly chat about all things related
to the Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling. For more information please
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e-mail me at simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk






From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 09:51:15 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:51:15 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
Message-ID: <F98AyHsjCGvseE4D3MB0000b44f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12899

>To muddy the waters a bit more. He is wearing a tie that seems to be
>identical to the one that Hermione and the boys are wearing. I.e. gold and
>red - the Gryffindor colours. The crest on Hermione's robes is the same as
>the one on Harry's in the picture of him and Ron. Even there it is 
>difficult
>to make out what exactly it is.
>

Maybe the tie colour doesn't matter, and they just wear their house crest on 
their robes? Does Hogwarts as a school have colours? - that could be the 
colours on the tie.

Liz
---
Still searching for a quote

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 10:03:54 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (~*Vicki Granger*~)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:03:54 +1100
Subject: Twins Marks - SMH article Re: Coke and Warner Bros vs. fan sites
Message-ID: <F1632Fko8C7wyfwjHNu00000b80@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12900

======
A few aspersions have been cast on the twins' grades of late.  Ron
says from the git-go (H. Express scene in PS/SS) that they get good
marks despite being the class clowns.  Three years later, they fail to
get enough O.W.L.s to make Molly happy, but otherwise we haven't seen
any sign that they aren't up to scratch academically.
======

Here's my 2 cents on the twin marks issue... I think they are *just* above 
average usually. But the OWL's coinsided (sp?) with WWW and a lot of sweet 
making so there marks went down a bit (maybe *just* below average?) and Mrs. 
Weasley is used to EXCELLENT marks from Percy, Bill  and Charlie. So she was 
dissapointed that all her sons didn't get excellent marks...

I found the following article in the Weekend (24-25 Feb.) issue of SMH 
(Sydney Morning Herald). It's about Harry Potter but mainly the Coke issue 
and how Warner Bros was trying to close down HP fan pages.

======
Potter magics a fortune from the marketing wizards

Date: 24/02/2001

By Mark Riley, Herald Correspondent In New York

It is the case of Harry Potter and the Marketing Magicians. The literary 
world's blockbusting boy wizard has conjured a
number of corporate deals over the past few days - one with Coca-Cola as big 
as its Sydney Olympic sponsorship.

On Wednesday Coca-Cola paid $US150 million ($287 million) for the global 
marketing rights to the film version of the first
Harry Potter book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

Just days earlier, at the New York Toy Fair, toy-manufacturing giant Mattel 
unveiled a much-hyped line of high-tech Harry
Potter gizmos and gadgets.

But the marketing push has pushed some youngsters too far - and they are 
responding with a consumer backlash that has
forced AOL Time Warner, parent company of Warner Bros, which is shooting the 
Harry Potter film, to backpedal fast.

After AOL Time Warner launched a new interactive Web site, harrypotter.com, 
the company got a bit heavy-handed in its
move to stake out its cyberspace territory.

Warner Bros lawyers sent threatening letters to some youngsters, warning 
them to close their Harry Potter fan sites because
they were infringing Warner's intellectual property rights.

Now a group of fans is threatening a world-wide merchandising boycott.

"It really got me mad," one fan site creator, 16-year-old Heather Lawver, of 
Virginia, told USA Today on Thursday.

She said one girl "was afraid these lawyers would come banging down her door 
and take away all her family's money".

Heather has teamed with Harry Potter fan site creators in Britain to form 
the Defence Against the Dark Arts project to fight
Warner's moves to shut their Web sites.

"I was like, 'OK, this has got to stop, now!'," Heather said. "I've never 
liked seeing kids getting bullied."

Something eventually told Warner Bros that Harry, too, doesn't like seeing 
children being bullied.

The company has issued a contrite statement, admitting it may have been 
over-zealous with its letters and offering to talk to
Potter fans about their sites.

The merchandising maestros are having to tread carefully in exploiting the 
children's book hero, particularly since author J.K.
Rowling has been at great pains to protect Harry's "brand" against the black 
magic ways of commercial overkill.

The Coke deal represents one of the largest global marketing programs ever.

Yet, while the Australian-born chairman of Coke, Mr Douglas Daft, seems 
assured that things will go better with Harry, the
contract places heavy restrictions on the manner in which his company can 
use the character's name and image.

Harry dolls are out of the question. Ms Rowling has often stated her intense 
dislike of action figures, among items of
Hollywood schlock.

That was part of the reason she decided to go with Coke and not McDonald's, 
which was also vying for the contract.

Ms Rowling was looking for something with more of an educational bent, and 
found it with Coke when the company agreed to
fund a raft of child literacy programs as part of the deal.

For Coca-Cola, the bespectacled boy wizard seemed the perfect character to 
help it revive its flagging share price by securing
it a better foothold in the youth market.

Though Coke will be allowed to slap Harry's face on its cans, Ms Rowling is 
adamant there will be no scenes of him slurping
the sponsor's product in the film.

"This is going to be about the Harry Potter ethos, as opposed to a 
buy-one-get-one-free type of thing," a Coke spokesman,
Mr John Chandler, said.

There is also the ethos of the Potter corporate clout - 67 million copies in 
200 languages.
======

Hope that clears something up... I thought you'd be interested. My dad 
rekons that because Coke is witht he movie that we'll see Pepsi being drunk 
by Dudley or the Slytherins... What does everyone think?

========

~*Vicki Granger*~
FanFiction.Net Author
Hermione Granger in Harry_Potter_RPG2
3rd Cheryl's Angel in Harry_Potter_RPG2
~*~MeMbEr Of EvIl ClUb~*~
:>(*)<: Reserve Seeker :>(*)<:
Proud Ravenclaw

"Men. Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em."  --Laura Chant ("Harry Potter 
and the Show That Never Ends" by Lori)

"You do realize this magazine is a complete rag, don't you? Look at the 
stuff you can order in the back. 'Please rush me my Twenty-Four-Hour 
Cleavage Enhancement Charm. Only 12 galleons and it lasts all day. Please 
sign on the dotted line below to confirm that you're over eighteen, even if 
your IQ isn't.'" --Draco Malfoy ("Draco Sinister" by Cassandra Claire)

"So, when can I expect the psycho-killers? And do they take one lump or two? 
Milk?" --Maple
_________________________________________________________________________
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From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 10:25:06 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:25:06 -0000
Subject: movie picture of the Sorting/number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <9777m0+bvqo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <978262+ug1a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12901

Steve:"Looking at the Sorting picture:[from the movie]...
...How many teachers could there be at that head table?...
...There is no second table behind the first. So the total number of 
teachers is very small, at  least in the movie. That's one more reason 
to suspect that the number of students is much less than 1000, as JKR 
mentioned once."

I don't think anything from the movie set can be evidence of anything 
remotely approaching a "fact".  We'd only see the number of teachers 
they wanted us to see if was a Head Table at UCLA.  The only things 
that count are the canon and things JKR says.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb 24 10:19:36 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:19:36 -0000
Subject: Movie/Casting: The teachers in those pics/suggestions for Pomfrey, Sprout, Fudge etc/cool pic of Tom Felton
Message-ID: <002901c09e4b$4ae17800$cf3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12902

Movie pictures:

I really enjoyed looking at those images from the film.

The one of the three kids in the playground looks really great.  Rupert
Grint does seem to be a bit taller than Dan Radcliffe, if not "gangly".

Why all this puzzlement over the kid with the Hufflepuff badge?  I thought
he had a yellow and black tie Shouldn't there be a Hufflepuff student in
any particular scene? I'm confused!

The one of the Sorting Hat scene is interesting.  Richard Harris looks
brilliant.  Maggie Smith also looks cool, but is she not wearing the glasses
McGonagall supposedly wears all the time?  The figure that appears to be
Alan Rickman has suitably long, black hair.  The guy to his right puzzles me
though.  It can't be Flitwick - Warwick Davis is, I think, well under 4ft
tall and this guy looks to be of normal height and quite young.   It could
be Sinistra, if we assume that he's a man (probably not); he's too young for
Binns and probably too young for Kettleburn (who also sounds like an old
dodderer).  So, it must be the professor who teaches Ancient Runes or Muggle
Studies or some other thing we haven't come across yet.

Apart from the twins, who will probably be played by unknowns (real twins or
camera trickery?), I'm *dying* to know who is playing Poppy Pomfrey and
Professor Sprout - anyone know?  This week, I'd like Miriam Margolyes to
play Pomfrey and Pam Ferris to play Sprout.  Are these actors known outside
the UK?   Margolyes played the Nurse in the recent version of Romeo and
Juliet, but shes been in loads of things. Pam Ferris played the
headmistress in Matilda, but some may know her from TV series, The
Darling Buds of May.

Thinking of Pam in "The Darling Buds of May", I think David Jason (who
played Pop Larkin) should be in the film somewhere - maybe as Binns or
Fudge.  He's one of the best character actors we have.  Hywell Bennett is
another possibility for Fudge - he has just the right sort of smarmy voice.

I've also found a much better picture of Tom Felton, with his natural blond
hair.  It's not hard to see why he was cast as Draco Malfoy!

Ive added pictures of all the above to the respective sections of our
images club.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/

Neil (who is going casting mad...)

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Visit the Portkey for all the info on this club:
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From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Sat Feb 24 10:18:57 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:18:57 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
References: <976m4b+tob5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d201c09e4f$a7ba8e00$922d07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12903

>  OK, this is just a frivolous post. The questions are:
>   Which character would you most like to meet, and
> why?

Oh gosh, this is hard. Depends actually in what mood I am in. But I think
I'd love to have met the original Marauders or even better, Lily.

> >
> >   Which character would you most like to be friends
> >   with, and why?

Holding my torch for Lily here. But since we don't have that many facts
given abou her in the books my image of her is pretty self-made.

>   Which character would you most like to be involved
>   with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
>  date...

I think Remus. Because of his kindness and wisdom. He's awfully grown-up
because of all the terrible things that happened in his life and I'd give
anything to make him smile and happy. And I think he can have quite the
temper, we just haven't seen it yet.

I'd love to just go on and take a stroll through a forrest, then have a
picnic by a brook and just lie in the grass and talk.

> >   And, which character would you most like to be?

My own character? Oh, cheating doesn't count, right? Then I'd like to be
professor Sinistra because we don't know much about her. Maybe she went to
Hogwarts with the Marauders and is just the right age.... <g>

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross





From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Sat Feb 24 10:48:23 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:48:23 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Silky Voice/Immortality
References: <3A974B40.A7DED1DA@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <00d301c09e4f$a8aeb200$922d07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12904

Thanks for the quotes. Seems like I have to reread the books - haven't done
that for two months now. Tsk, tsk, bad me <g>.

And I always say that people who are bored don't have enough imagination.
The places you can go in your dreams are the most awesome of them all - as
long as you don't forget reality.

 ~ Dinah ~ (who has at least 20-30 unread books on her shelf)

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: Catlady <catlady at wicca.net>
To: HP4G <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 6:48 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Silky Voice


> PoA:
> "Detention, Weasley," Snape said silkily,
> "Up to the castle?" said Snape silkily.
>
> SS:
> "Be that as it may, fighting is against Hogwarts rules, Hagrid," said
> Snape silkily. "Five points from Gryffindor, Weasley,
>
> --
>           /\ /\
>            + +     Mews and views
>          >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston
>
>                      ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
>                      `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
>                      (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
>                     _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
>                    ((('   (((-(((''  ((((
>
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Sat Feb 24 10:57:56 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:57:56 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Darkhorizons movie pictures deleted? (was: Another movie picture)
References: <976qpt+ap3g@eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010223202215.05620770@brain-stream.com>
Message-ID: <00e901c09e50$a5203ea0$922d07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12905

Another question. In the description it says that the boy between Ron and
Harry is Seamus, But isn't he quite small? I automatically assumed that it
was Neville....

Oh how I love this pic. I have no idea how anyone could fail to notice that
Hermione *is* a girl with that pretty lass standing there. I still don't
really now why she looks like the typical, spell-performing witch with
flying hair and all, but boy, she looks pissed off. I really like that -
this is the girl that can give Ron and Harry a hard time.

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: B.K. DeLong <bkdelong at pobox.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Darkhorizons movie pictures deleted? (was:
Another movie picture)


> At 01:02 AM 02/24/2001 +0000, John Walton wrote:
> >I don't seem to be able to access them directly, and they appear to have
> >been deleted from the directory. Was anyone Hermionic enough to download
> >them to their computer, and if so, could you upload them to the YahGroop
> >file area?
>
> The Harry Potter Galleries still have them. I'm guessing because they're
in
> Germany that it will be a tad tougher to take it down.
>
> http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/mgallery16.htm
>
> My smaller versions are still online but I have a feeling I'll be getting
a
> letter soon:
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_02_18_archive.html#2496456
>
> I'm really disappointed that WB has chosen to make people take the
pictures
> offline - they're really making fans happy.
>
>
> --
> B.K. DeLong
> bkdelong at pobox.com
> 617.877.3271
>
> http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
> http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
> http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.
>
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb 24 10:57:11 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:57:11 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: New 'Very Frequently Asked Questions' file
Message-ID: <005201c09e50$b2f2c200$cf3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12906

Hi everyone!

You may be wondering why the Moderator Team has been so quiet on the ADMIN front of late.  On the other hand, you may be thinking 'Phew! Thank goodness they've stopped blathering on about netiquette and let us just get on with unfettered posting and having loads of FUN!!!'

Okay, so we've been busy ruminating, pondering, confabulating and (in Penny's case) gestating, but rest assured, we were watching over you, flexing our wands and trying on disciplinary hairnets for size ... but deciding against doing owt.  

I'm just popping up briefly to point my wand (16 inches, unicorn hair, bamboo, rather rigid and terribly hard to fit in my pocket) at the 'Very Frequently Asked Questions' file in our Files section.  This is sort of a draft still, as there are references to things that don't exist as yet.  The list also includes links to OTChatter (which is where you should go for really off-topic posting...I feel my inner sheepdog coming on...) and Announcements (another new club area we haven't told you *anything* about yet, but by all means join it and wait while we catch up).

So, cutting to the chase: take a look through the file, especially if you're quite new to the club and didn't receive the link to it when you joined, and let us know if there is anything wrong/missing/puzzling in there (actually, please e-mail me off-list, at: neilward at dircon.co.uk).  

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (ignition on)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

HPfGU Moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Visit the Portkey for all the info on this club:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/%20%20Portkey.htm




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Sat Feb 24 12:35:10 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:35:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Intimacy Issues - Diggory - Map - Frivolity -
References: <20010224004244.9949036FA@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <001c01c09e5e$3ad49a60$09e7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 12907


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Star 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 7:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Intimacy Issues - Diggory - Map - Frivolity -



  >Kelley wrote: 
  >Does anyone besides me think perhaps Mr. Diggory will go dark now that he's lost his much-loved son, and that overly-hyped (to him) Harry Potter was involved?< 

  Catlady wrote: 
  >I don't think Amos would go dark for vengeance on Harry, but it occurred 
  to me that he might be seduced to the Dark by promises of bringing his 
  son back to life.< 

  >I don't think Amos would go over to the dark side b/c it was the dark side that killed his son so he would want revenge on >the dark side and not Harry, he understands that it wasn't Harry's fault.  As to Amos being seduced to the dark side by >promises of his son's life returned Amos is smart enough to know that magic can't bring back the dead(I think it says so >in the book and if not I know JK said so in either a chat or the movie I saw about the HP books) 
  ~Star~ 
  >~Star~ 

  This is very logical...and that's the problem.  The Diggorys have just lost there son, they're not exactly thinking logically.  They may not even be thinking at all.  It's easy for us to see the situation for what it is, but 1)Diggory wasn't there when his son was killed, so he doesn't know exactly what happened, and therefore might be prone to believing any lies about the incident that Voldie might tell him...and 2)Diggory is most likely going to be angry and look for someone to blame.  He may not be thinking clearly enough to blame the nameless, faceless Deatheaters, when little Harry Potter is so visible.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From miredinthemarrow at email.com  Sat Feb 24 13:00:48 2001
From: miredinthemarrow at email.com (Shanna Seanachai)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:00:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Questions about the Stouffer stuff..(warning-- kind of long)
Message-ID: <382722814.983019648437.JavaMail.root@web176-ec>

No: HPFGUIDX 12908

I don't think that her books were, uh, run off at Kinko's, persay. I saw
Stouffer on C-Span during the summer when this whole debacle began. I think
she had a very small publisher. However, she admitted that sales of her book
were limited to the US - EXCEPT (there's always an except) this one single
book fair in London which sold her book. I find it highly unlikely that JKR
just happened to be in London (when she lived in Edinborough - yes, I know
they do travel back and forth quite a bit, but I'm sure she wasn't there
constantly) to go to that stupid book fair and just happen to find her book
and be oh so inspired by it.
I can't see it as being anything but crazy coincidence. I mean, if you were
going to rip some one off, don't you think you'd be a little more subtle,
rather than nearly copying every name and term you can find?
Furthermore, Stouffer really doesn't gain much credibility from me - you are
absolutely right, she IS an opportunist. She even said she's filed lawsuits
before over people knicking her ideas. (And lost everyone of them,
apparently). You know, I'm sure all the children's writers in the world are
scrambling to steal from her works of genius. I think she is just doing this
because, even if she doesn't win the suit, let's face it, millions of people
know about her now then before, and maybe she'll end up selling more books.

shanna seanachai
envy.nu/snape


> At 12:43 AM 2/22/01 +0000, Kelley wrote:
> >Stouffer claims there was demand for her book; wouldn't it be
> >available in public libraries?  I've not tried looking, but is
there some reason it would not be available?
>
> Dave wrote:
> My understanding is that her books were self-publsihed (i.e. she
> ran off copies at Kinko's and distributed at local K-Marts).  So not
> only do her books probably have no ISBN/Library of Congress
> designation, but it seems highly improbable that JKR ever set
> eyes on them.
>
> BTW I invite everyone read my page of rebuttals to Stouffer's
> charges: http://www.mindspring.com/~daveh47/JKRvsNKS.html

Hi Dave.  I did go to your site, and agree with you completely.  I
thought all that stuff, too.  Because of these reasons, I figured
Stouffer's problem must be that all the instances she listed (all the
correct ones, anyway) were found in ~both~ their works.  See what I
mean?  The "Oz" books may have several instances in common, but
Stouffer's and JKR's have almost all of them in common.  I'm not
siding with Stouffer at all; I think she's a full-of-crap
opportunist.  What I'm trying to understand is if her case is based
on this entire list of 'similarities' between her's and JKR's works,
or if her whole case hinges on 'muggle'.  And, you know, the
governor/friar thing, perhaps there's a governor in her book, and she
put the terms in the wrong columns (I'm thinking of the "Fat
Friar").  Plus, how can she compare Elixir of Life to her Well of
Desire?  Not one of her lawyers has explained that JKR's is from
alchemy and the Philosopher's Stone?  I'm so baffled by all this.  Is
this woman an American?  Oh, and good grief:  went to Kinko's and
talked her local K-marts into selling her books?!  Is she kidding?
There is the bizarre chance that JKR could have seen this woman's
work, but seriously, what are the odds?  How on earth could she ever
hope to prove something like that?  I'm so tired of these people who
come crawling out of the woodwork, hoping to make an easy buck from
being a nuisance.  Okay, sorry for the rant guys.  Thanks for the
reply, Dave.  Appreciate it.

Kelley


-----------------------------------------------
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com





From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Feb 24 13:29:48 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:29:48 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie (the train scene)
References: <975tfh+pbap@eGroups.com> <002601c09dac$ef9db600$b12c07d5@oemcomputer> <5.0.2.1.0.20010223153144.01c97940@pop31.ync.net> <003301c09e27$912666a0$3a14a3d1@doreen> <005a01c09e3c$17005ce0$5c3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <003501c09e65$dd14fe80$4b14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12909


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Neil Ward 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 2:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie (the train scene)


  Doreen said:

  > Not being a "veteran Harry Potter fan" like most of you, I do not know how
  reliable this source is. I did read this...

  > http://www.empireonline.co.uk/news/news.asp?2861

  "The first picture shows the steam train representing Hogwarts Express.
  Although the book clearly states that Harry gets on the train at platform
  nine and three quarters, artistic licence was taken and the train was parked
  at platform four with normal passenger trains packed with extras at
  platforms three and five. <snip>"

  My comments:

  Although the train is described as being parked at platform four in
  actuality, I imagine that the studio will turn it into the hidden Platform 9
  and 3/4 by the magic of special effects.  This is such a significant detail
  that I can't imagine they would simply ignore it.  I would be very alarmed
  if poetic license stretched that far (still wondering about Petunia's and
  Dudley's dark hair). 
  Neil

  If they do not change the platform number to nine and three-quarters, they will lose credibility right from the start. But, as you point out, they didn't even get Petunia & Dudley's hair color right. (maybe they are going to "color that in" later. (j/k)
   
  If they can't pull off the train station number, they may as well wrap it up, because there are many scenes from the book that are going to require some major special effects. 

  I wonder if they have ANY idea how scrutinizing HP fans are? When people read & re-read books as much as Harry is being done, movie makers had best be on their toes if they expect their sequels to fly. We may be Muggles but we are not lemmings.

  Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 14:08:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:08:25 -0000
Subject: Number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEAADEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <978f8p+3bl0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12910

Simon wrote:
 
> I decided that being generous on the number of teachers we could 
possibly
> get to around 20 at the head table. This is the start of year feast 
so most
> of them will be there, with the exception of Trelawney (and her 
foggy inner
> eye). Still no where near the 100 that you would need for a school 
that
> side, when they are mainly taught in class sizes of 10.

(sighing and dragging out a worn copy of "Hogwarts: A Mathematics of 
Course Scheduling")

Hermione here to say again that even if there were only 280 students, 
the usual low-end guess, 12 teachers would not be enough.  There are 
28 divisions of students: 4 houses x 7 years.  Some double up for 
certain classes, yielding, say, 20 groups.  One teacher simply cannot 
cover 20 sections of Transfiguration, or Potions, or any other class 
that every student takes every year, the way Muggles take English.  No 
matter how small Hogwarts is, JKR is taking some artistic license--or 
else McGonagall magically enables herself to teach 20 sections of 
Transfiguration each term without going nuts.  (We might have the 
explanation for Snape's chronic grumpiness here, come to think of it.)

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
 "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
                   -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 14:30:58 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:30:58 -0000
Subject: Snape - Casting, stills - Simon's sigs
Message-ID: <978gj2+illh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12911

Rebecca wrote:

>- Head of Slytherin House

Amy Z wrote:

>Not canon, but a common assumption by fans:  this means he was a
>Slytherin while in school.

Stephanie wrote:

>Ummm, it is so in canon, if that IS what you were talking about.

Oops, that was unclear punctuation on my part.  I meant that the idea 
that Snape himself was in Slytherin while a student isn't 
canon--it just seems likely to many of us that Heads of Houses were 
members of their houses.  Maybe someone who's actually gone to a 
school like that can weigh in.

Rachel asked:

>Also....Is anyone a bit scared of this movie?

Very.  But I'm confident that it can't ruin my experience of the book, 
just as Harriet the Spy (which was unwatchable, IMO) couldn't ruin 
that one for me.  I have such vivid mental pictures that I don't 
think they will be displaced.  So the worst that will happen is I 
won't like the movie.

E.g. I will always see Hermione's hair as very bushy even though they 
seem to have ignored that.  (Does this mean we won't get the 
va-va-voom Hermione at the Yule Ball?  The scene is a little too close 
to that Ally Sheedy "all made up and turned from a wild thing into a 
cute, normal, promgoing girl" thing in The Breakfast Club for my 
comfort, so I wouldn't miss it.)

LOVE the pic with the flying letters!  Harry smiles and makes my day 
(or should it be makes.my.day?)!

It's okay by me that it isn't in the kitchen.  These are the kinds of 
details that disappear, unfortunately but inevitably, in adaptations. 
 I look forward to many happy hours of running to the books to check 
on some detail or another and saying "aha! they changed that one 
too--quels idiots!"

I think we might just have to live with 4 Privet Drive having only one 
fireplace, which will have to serve as a real one in PS and an 
electric one in GF.  So the Dursleys put the electric one in sometime 
between 1 and 4--they're moving up in the world, right?  They probably 
got it done at the same time that Vernon got his new company car.

Twins casting:  the twins are being played by James and Oliver Phelps, 
according to Rames' site: 
http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery.htm.  

Re: Simon's bottomless well of sigs:  And the winner of the prize for 
Most Fanfic Cameos goes to...Dr. Simon Branford!  You should demand 
royalties!  Oh yeah, fanfic can't get royalties, can it?  Oh well.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
  "Do you mean to tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that
this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" 
  Harry thought this was going a bit far. 
                               -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Feb 24 15:00:54 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 24 Feb 2001 07:00:54 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
Message-ID: <20010224150054.15384.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12912

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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010224/a6206568/attachment.ksh>

From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 15:10:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:10:02 -0000
Subject: which platform?
In-Reply-To: <20010224150054.15384.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <978isa+e32o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12913

Jeralyn wrote:

> I tend to agree with Neil that the *filming* took place at platform 
4, but will be edited to 9 3/4.

They tried to film it at Platform 9 3/4, but the magical barrier 
balked at letting all those Muggle camerapeople through.

;-)
Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always 
been about being dead, but none of the other 
ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it.
                 --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------




From NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com  Sat Feb 24 15:25:25 2001
From: NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com (NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:25:25 EST
Subject: Harry Wins a Grammy
Message-ID: <6c.80d876e.27c92c65@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12914

Harry Potter wins a Grammy!
Did you know that Harry Potter won a Grammy Award? The recording of HARRY 
POTTER AND THE GOBLET OF FIRE won a Grammy for the Best Spoken Word Album for 
Children. If your computer can play sounds, you can listen to part of this 
recording right now! Just <A 
HREF="http://aol.kidsreads.com/HarryPotter/book4.html">click here</A>, and 
then after the web page loads click on the words, "Listen to an Audio 
Excerpt."

~shahara


shahara lefay
pagan priestess
vegetarian homeschoolers
radical momma of 5
 <A HREF="http://www.gurlpages.com/spirit/shaharalefay">--T</A><A 
HREF="http://www.gurlpages.com/spirit/shaharalefay">erraSoLuna--</A> 



From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Feb 24 15:29:49 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:29:49 -0000
Subject: Number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <978f8p+3bl0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <978k1d+639p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12915

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Simon wrote:
>  
> > I decided that being generous on the number of teachers we could 
> possibly get to around 20 at the head table. 
Still no where near the 100 that you would need for a school 
> that side, when they are mainly taught in class sizes of 10.
> Amy Z

In chapter 30 of GoF, it says, "Harry knew there were not nearly that 
many teachers at Hogwarts." then a bit later it says, "Not one of the 
wizards and witches in the room (and there were at least two hundred 
of them)
So, now we have to figure out, mathmatically, just how many people 
are in a "not nearly that many". *smile*

Doreen






From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Sat Feb 24 15:39:34 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (muggle-reader at angelfire.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:39:34 -0000
Subject: Silky Voice
In-Reply-To: <3A974B40.A7DED1DA@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <978kjm+nh29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12916

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> PoA:
> "Detention, Weasley," Snape said silkily,
> "Up to the castle?" said Snape silkily.
> 
> SS:
> "Be that as it may, fighting is against Hogwarts rules, Hagrid," 
said
> Snape silkily. "Five points from Gryffindor, Weasley,


I imagine that Snape said those sentences in a very calm, almost 
haughty manner with a touch of self-righteousness, a dash of joy and 
whisper of accomplishment.

Demelza




From a.gisius at chello.nl  Sat Feb 24 15:45:49 2001
From: a.gisius at chello.nl (Nan Gisius)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:45:49 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] which platform?
References: <978isa+e32o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013901c09e78$dd2c3560$0100a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12917

*grin* right ... that's what happened :)) And Amy??? I'm so happy to see that I'm not the only one thinking that the books are non-fiction ;)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 4:10 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] which platform?


  Jeralyn wrote:

  > I tend to agree with Neil that the *filming* took place at platform 
  4, but will be edited to 9 3/4.

  They tried to film it at Platform 9 3/4, but the magical barrier 
  balked at letting all those Muggle camerapeople through.

  ;-)
  Amy Z

  ----------------------------------------------
  Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always 
  been about being dead, but none of the other 
  ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it.
                   --HP and the Goblet of Fire
  ----------------------------------------------


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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 16:33:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:33:44 -0000
Subject: Fry versions on the web?
Message-ID: <978np8+pb8l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12918

I'd really like to hear at least a snippet of Stephen Fry's reading.  
Can anyone direct me to a site where I can tune in just a bit?  Bits 
of Jim Dale are available on the web via a Salon article, and also via 
a National Public Radio interview that ended with an excerpt, but I 
haven't found a comparable SF bit.

BTW, in searching unsuccessfully for audio, I found pics of him--I'd 
never seen him in anything--and he doesn't fit my view of Lupin, 
Ender, but I nominate him for Sirius.  Maybe it's just the Oscar Wilde 
connection (unjust imprisonment), but I can really picture it.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------
  "Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives!" Harry
said furiously.  "Look at the Dursleys!"
  "Excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore.
                          --HP and the Goblet of Fire 
-------------------------------------------------------




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Sat Feb 24 16:36:48 2001
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (rhodhry at yahoo.no)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:36:48 -0000
Subject: Number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <978f8p+3bl0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <978nv0+tlb2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12919

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Simon wrote:
>  
> > I decided that being generous on the number of teachers we could 
> possibly
> > get to around 20 at the head table. This is the start of year 
feast 
> so most
> > of them will be there, with the exception of Trelawney (and her 
> foggy inner
> > eye). Still no where near the 100 that you would need for a 
school 
> that
> > side, when they are mainly taught in class sizes of 10.
> 
> (sighing and dragging out a worn copy of "Hogwarts: A Mathematics 
of 
> Course Scheduling")
> 
> Hermione here to say again that even if there were only 280 
students, 
> the usual low-end guess, 12 teachers would not be enough.  There 
are 
> 28 divisions of students: 4 houses x 7 years.  Some double up for 
> certain classes, yielding, say, 20 groups.  One teacher simply 
cannot 
> cover 20 sections of Transfiguration, or Potions, or any other 
class 
> that every student takes every year, the way Muggles take English.  
No 
> matter how small Hogwarts is, JKR is taking some artistic license--
or 
> else McGonagall magically enables herself to teach 20 sections of 
> Transfiguration each term without going nuts.  (We might have the 
> explanation for Snape's chronic grumpiness here, come to think of 
it.)
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
>  "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
>                    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
> ------------------------------------------------------

I quite agree - the abrest minimum of teachers is fourteen plus 
Professor Dumbledore.  This assumes that at no time are more than two 
classes taught in parallell in the same year, giving fourteen classes 
taught at the same time.  I doubt greatly that they do clever 
scheduling to have one year not having classes at any given time - it 
would be much more advisable to hire an extra teacher or two.  To 
take a muggle example:  when I started elementary school back in 
1981, I started at a school teaching seven years, one class for each 
year.  Students up to fourth year had Thursdays off, and had no more 
than four periods per day.  There was never more than one teacher per 
class.  The school had fifteen teachers.  

The problem with student-numbers is that no matter how you look at 
it, or whether you support low or high numbers, it does not 
completely add up.  But with only 300 students, that would mean about 
one sixth of the worlds wizarding population went to see the world 
cup quidditch finals (and that there were only 400 Irish supporters 
at that game, as that would be the entire Irish population of witches 
and wizards - Luxembourg (who slaughtered Scotland) would only have 
around 60 witches and wizards in its entire population).

The above is based on the average witch and wizard living twice as  
long as the average muggle.  In a muggle population, children aged 11-
18 constitute ca. 1/10th of the population - assuming linear 
expansion, children aged 11-18 would constitute 1/20th of the 
wizarding population.  with Hogwarts the only school for Britain, and 
possibly Ireland, Great Britain gets a population 20 times that of 
Hogwarts.  Great Britain and Ireland together have 60 million 
inhabitants, constituting 1/100 of the world population.  With 300 
students at Hogwarts, 6000 witches and wizards total (all ages) in 
Great Britain and Ireland, you will have (assuming identical 
distribution) a world population of 600 000 witches and wizards.  USA 
will have ca. 28 000.  The British wizarding society is, IMHO, not 
self-sufficient enough to support at least one newspaper, one weekly, 
one scientific periodical, multiple professional quidditch-teams, a 
large number of industries, etc.  I live at an island with 10 000 
inhabitants, and we have a smaller economy than what is evident in 
the books.




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Sat Feb 24 16:42:38 2001
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (rhodhry at yahoo.no)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:42:38 -0000
Subject: Movie/Casting: The teachers in those pics/suggestions for Pomfrey, Sprout, Fudge etc/cool pic of Tom Felton
In-Reply-To: <002901c09e4b$4ae17800$cf3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <978o9u+3lih@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12920

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
[snip]
> Why all this puzzlement over the kid with the Hufflepuff badge?  I 
> thought he had a yellow and black tie
 Shouldn't there be a 
> Hufflepuff student in any particular scene? I'm confused!
[snip]

It most definitely is a yellow and black tie, but it may not be 
equaly visible to all, depending on the settings of the computer-
screen.  The main puzzlement with the Hufflepuff-kid is if this is 
the broom-flying lesson, which took place only with Gryffindor and 
Slytherin students.  Could the image be from a quidditch-match 
instead?





From bohners at pobox.com  Sat Feb 24 16:49:59 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:49:59 -0500
Subject: Magical Theory
Message-ID: <01a201c09e81$dfe6f980$9c39acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 12921

I've been thinking, or rather wondering, about the differences between
spells, charms, and potions.

Specifically, for what purposes would a potion be used as opposed to a spell
or a charm?  It would appear that there are certain effects which *only* be
produced by the drinking or otherwise administering of a potion, but that in
the main these effects are limited and temporary in nature (i.e. the
Polyjuice Potion).  Can anybody think of a potion with total and permanent
effects?  Aside from those that are actually fatal, that is.  How much
overlap is there between spells, charms, and potions?  Is it possible to use
any one of these to produce the same effect (i.e. an invisibility spell /
charm / potion)?

And what's the distinction between a spell and a charm?  Again, I would say
that charms seem to be temporary and specific whereas spells seem to be more
permanent and far-ranging, but that may be a distinction existing only in my
mind.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this.
--
Rebecca
(with apologies to those who are going to see this twice, but there doesn't
seem to be that much overlap between Diagon Alley and HP for Grownups --
yet.)




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Sat Feb 24 17:21:49 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (muggle-reader at angelfire.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:21:49 -0000
Subject: Magical Theory
In-Reply-To: <01a201c09e81$dfe6f980$9c39acce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <978qjd+pemf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12922

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at p...> 
wrote:
> I've been thinking, or rather wondering, about the differences 
between
> spells, charms, and potions.
> 
> Specifically, for what purposes would a potion be used as opposed to 
a spell
> or a charm?  It would appear that there are certain effects which 
*only* be
> produced by the drinking or otherwise administering of a potion, but 
that in
> the main these effects are limited and temporary in nature (i.e. the
> Polyjuice Potion).  Can anybody think of a potion with total and 
permanent
> effects?  Aside from those that are actually fatal, that is.  How 
much
> overlap is there between spells, charms, and potions?  Is it 
possible to use
> any one of these to produce the same effect (i.e. an invisibility 
spell /
> charm / potion)?
> 
> And what's the distinction between a spell and a charm?  Again, I 
would say
> that charms seem to be temporary and specific whereas spells seem to 
be more
> permanent and far-ranging, but that may be a distinction existing 
only in my
> mind.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this.

I would equate a 'Spell' with a prayer or some kind of mystical saying 
that causes magic or enchantment.

A 'Charm', to me, implies a magical or enchanted object. For example a 
four-leaf clover is a good luck charm.

'Potion' is a magical or enchanted liquid that can either be imbibed 
or sprinkled on something.

Moreover a 'Spell' can be used to enchant an object, making the 
enchanted object a 'Charm'. However, not all enchanted objects are 
charms. Likewise a 'Spell' can be used to enchant a liquid, making it 
into a magical potion (though Rowling doesn't do this in her books). 

Demelza 




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Feb 24 17:22:13 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:22:13 -0000
Subject: movie picture of the Sorting/number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <978262+ug1a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <978qk5+q8bt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12923

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> 
> I don't think anything from the movie set can be evidence of 
anything 
> remotely approaching a "fact".  We'd only see the number of 
teachers 
> they wanted us to see if was a Head Table at UCLA.  The only things 
> that count are the canon and things JKR says.

I understand that, believe me, I'm a great defender of canon. I 
didn't mean to imply that I will be treating the film as canon, 
because I don't and won't. But I do see the film as giving us 
something of a window into JKR's actual vision, since she has so 
heartily endorsed the film. If it looks right to her, that does give 
us some idea of what she's thinking. Does that make sense? The 
pictures from the film fit with the way I've been imagining Hogwarts, 
and I'm a proponent of smaller student numbers. The fact that the 
movie seems to bear that out and that JKR approved the movie doesn't 
canonically PROVE anything, but it does suggest that the smaller 
student concept has merit.

As for conjectures about total wizard populations of various 
countries etc. being based on student population, I have to go along 
with what someone said a long time ago now, that all wizard kids 
don't go to school in the traditional, Hogwarts fashion. JKR says 
that Hogwarts is the only such school for Britain, but from that we 
can't infer that there are only that many pre-teen and teen-age 
wizard KIDS in Britain. It wouldn't make any sense if it that were 
true. There is no way that even a thousand kids could represent a 
population that supports all the stores, businesses, magazines, 
transportation systems, governmental organizations, sports teams, 
etc. that we see with the Wizarding World. There MUST be more people 
than that.

If you look at the culture of the Wizarding World, you see a modern 
version of a medieval system. In that system, the majority of kids 
didn't attend a formal school, they were trained either at home or in 
small group schools and then apprenticed into trades. The Wizarding 
World must work along those lines for it to be the culture we see in 
the books. Most kids end up in trades without going through advanced 
magical training. The brightest and more magically-advanced (and 
occasionally the most well-connected) go to Hogwarts. It just makes 
sense, not only with the numbers we see but also with the way the 
culture works.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Feb 24 17:29:58 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:29:58 -0000
Subject: Magical Theory
In-Reply-To: <01a201c09e81$dfe6f980$9c39acce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <978r2m+tu3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12924

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
> I've been thinking, or rather wondering, about the differences 
between
> spells, charms, and potions.

I seem to recall JKR saying something at one point about 
what "charms" are. Does anyone remember or have a link? I was trying 
to find this for my Charms page in the Lexicon. I've gone over the 
Scholastic interviews and I don't find it there.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has detailed pages about the kinds of magic, and theory too
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 17:55:29 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:55:29 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape - Casting, stills - Simon's sigs
Message-ID: <F2888RWXmSDzRVMKF8A000135fd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12925

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amy Wrote:
Oops, that was unclear punctuation on my part.  I meant that the idea
that Snape himself was in Slytherin while a student isn't
canon--it just seems likely to many of us that Heads of Houses were
members of their houses.  Maybe someone who's actually gone to a
school like that can weigh in.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
While this does not mean he was actually IN Slytherin, In PoA Sirius says 
that Snape came to school knowing more curses/hexes than the 7th years and 
hung out with a large group of slytherins who nearly all went bad...

Stephanie
The Very Tires
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From bohners at pobox.com  Sat Feb 24 18:09:59 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:09:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Theory
References: <978qjd+pemf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01d601c09e8d$05535aa0$9c39acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 12926

> I would equate a 'Spell' with a prayer or some kind of mystical saying
> that causes magic or enchantment.

[snip]

> Moreover a 'Spell' can be used to enchant an object, making the
> enchanted object a 'Charm'. However, not all enchanted objects are
> charms. Likewise a 'Spell' can be used to enchant a liquid, making it
> into a magical potion (though Rowling doesn't do this in her books).

I guess I should have made myself more clear.  I want to know specifically
the differences between these things in the HP universe.  For instance, it's
clear that Rowling does not consider charms to be "magical objects" if you
look at the students' activities in Flitwick's class, so your comments above
don't really apply to her books.

I just thought of something.  Does a spell require careful preparation and
setting up beforehand, so that when you point your wand and say the words to
start the spell going, you're actually drawing on all that preparation you
did before?  Certainly some of the spells in the HP books work like this.
On the other hand, other spells don't seem to require that much effort (i.e.
"Expelliarmus").

Charms on the other hand generally seem to be one-off spells that don't
require advance preparation, just practice to get one's aim or control right
(as when they're making pillows fly around Flitwick's classroom).  They
affect the movements and properties of objects (i.e. the Summoning/Banishing
charms) as well as causing temporary, relatively inconsequential changes
when cast on people (i.e. Cheering Charm, Bubble-Head Charm).  On the other
hand, the Memory Charm is a charm, and that isn't either temporary or
inconsequential.

I wonder if JKR really has a systematic magical theory worked out or whether
she's just tossing around words like "spell", "hex", "jinx", "charm" and
"curse" more or less at random according to how good they sound/look on
paper?
--
Rebecca




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 24 18:09:22 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:09:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape - Casting, stills - Simon's sigs
References: <F2888RWXmSDzRVMKF8A000135fd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A97F8D2.DCAED838@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12927

Stephanie Malfoy wrote:

> Stephanie
> The Very Tires

....?
Should we recall you....?

--Amanda, who's been very tires too at times, but still can't let it
pass


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 18:15:12 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:15:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <978f8p+3bl0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010224181512.13149.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12928


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:

No 
> matter how small Hogwarts is, JKR is taking some
> artistic license--or 
> else McGonagall magically enables herself to teach
> 20 sections of 
> Transfiguration each term without going nuts.  (We
> might have the 
> explanation for Snape's chronic grumpiness here,
> come to think of it.)
> 
Maybe the staff use time-turners? Just a thought.
Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From mohuebner0 at lycos.de  Sat Feb 24 18:35:45 2001
From: mohuebner0 at lycos.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:35:45 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fry versions on the web?
In-Reply-To: <978np8+pb8l@eGroups.com>
References: <978np8+pb8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0ctf9t0alpvskbqpitdspu1mdr2kj47qtg@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12929

On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:33:44 -0000, "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:

>I'd really like to hear at least a snippet of Stephen Fry's reading.  
>Can anyone direct me to a site where I can tune in just a bit?

There are a few samples at the Cover to Cover website (the company who
publishes the british versions of the audio books:
http://www.covertocover.co.uk


>  Bits 
>of Jim Dale are available on the web via a Salon article, and also via 
>a National Public Radio interview that ended with an excerpt, but I 
>haven't found a comparable SF bit.

For Jim Dale, try the audio book section of the Randomhouse website:
http://www.randomhouse.com
They have extracts of about 10 minutes for every book.

>BTW, in searching unsuccessfully for audio, I found pics of him--I'd 
>never seen him in anything--and he doesn't fit my view of Lupin, 
>Ender, but I nominate him for Sirius.  Maybe it's just the Oscar Wilde 
>connection (unjust imprisonment), but I can really picture it.

Who? Jim Dale or Stephen Fry? I can't see either of them as Sirius!

Monika


--
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html

Current book: Peg Kerr: The Wild Swans



From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 24 18:44:15 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:44:15 -0000
Subject: Coke and Warner Bros vs. fan sites
In-Reply-To: <F1632Fko8C7wyfwjHNu00000b80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <978vdv+f6vj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12930

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "~*Vicki Granger*~" <junkjunkjunk2000 at h...> 
wrote:

> Yet, while the Australian-born chairman of Coke, Mr Douglas Daft,

Mr. Daft -- yet another JKR type name! 
 
> seems assured that things will go better with Harry, the contract
> places heavy restrictions on the manner in which his company can 
> use the character's name and image.
> Harry dolls are out of the question. Ms Rowling has often stated
> her intense dislike of action figures, among items of Hollywood
> schlock.

Weren't there Harry and Draco action figures at the Toy Fair? -- the 
ones where Harry was standing by the Slytherin banner and Draco by 
the Gryffindor banner?
> 
> Though Coke will be allowed to slap Harry's face on its cans, Ms
> Rowling is adamant there will be no scenes of him slurping the
> sponsor's product in the film.

I fear. Pictures on the Coke cans can be even more vulgar than having 
Harry drink Coke in the film.

> My dad reckons that because Coke is witht he movie that we'll see
> Pepsi being drunk by Dudley or the Slytherins... 

Funny, but not going to happen. First of all, for a movie to depict a 
branded product without a license from the trademark owner is an 
infringement that the movie people can be sued for; ironically, that 
is one reason for product placement: the movie people ask permission 
to use the product and the product people say "only if we like the 
way you use it". Are people here old enough to remember the movie 
E.T. ?? The reason it used Reese's Pieces is that M&Ms refused 
permission.

Second, showing even the bad guys drinking Pepsi counts as pro-Pepsi 
advertising. Look how many of us want to be Slytherins or have an 
affair with Draco! I haven't seen anyone wanting to be Dudley, but the 
product people think that the mere sight of their label will make 
people buy their product.

> ~*Vicki Granger*~

Are you Hermione's sister as well as posting the round number mesage 
$12900? 





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 24 19:41:50 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:41:50 -0000
Subject: Number of teacherspopulation/wizarding economy
In-Reply-To: <978nv0+tlb2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9792pu+adhb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12931

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rhodhry at y... wrote:
> I doubt greatly that they do clever scheduling to have one year not
> having classes at any given time - it would be much more advisable
> to hire an extra teacher or two. 

I don't know whether it is 'clever scheduling', but there do seem to 
be times during the day when some students are in class but other 
students have 'free time'. Little things like Harry looking at his 
timetable and seeing that he has no classes on Friday afternoons...

I've made up a vague theory that the few teachers handle so many 
class hours by scheduling many classes to meet only once a week, or 
even only once every two weeks. I made Snape a schedule where he 
teaches Gryffindor/Slytherin Double Potions every morning and 
Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff Double Potions every afternoon (three or four 
hour classes) to first years on Monday, second years on Tuesday, 
third years on Wednesday, fourth years on Thursday, fifth years on 
Fridays, sixth years and seventh years on alternate Saturdays. If he 
grades the homework himself, no teaching assistants, he has no time 
to sleep, let alone live.

> The problem with student-numbers is that no matter how you look
> at  it, or whether you support low or high numbers, it does not 
> completely add up. (snip) 
> With 300 students at Hogwarts, 6000 witches and wizards total
> (all ages) in Great Britain and Ireland (snip)
> The British wizarding society is, IMHO, not self-sufficient enough
> to support at least one newspaper, one weekly, one scientific
> periodical, multiple professional quidditch-teams, a large number
> of industries, etc.

I've been thinking that 1000 students (at Hogwarts as JKR said and I 
believe, or divided among several schools which seems more plausible, 
or being educated by apprenticeships instead of schools) would be a 
wizarding population of 15,000 to 18,000. (Because I think that 
Dumbledore's age of 150 years is a long rather than an average length 
life time, even for wizards.) 

Even raising it to your 20,000, the finances don't work out for all 
those periodicals and Quidditch teams and industries. The industries 
seem to me to be very small operations, but even so... I figured, 
with a LOT of assumptions: that Ollivander charges an average of 7 
Galleons for a wand (that was the price of Harry's), that he owns his 
store and workshop outright, no rent, no real estate taxes, and that 
a small family needs 1000 Galleons a year to live even a thrify 
middle-class way of life, that the profit on wands is one-third (he 
has to pay wand-makers as well materials), that 1000/7 is the number 
of entering first-years getting their first wands (seven years of 
school, seven Galleons for a wand, convenient coincidence). The 
revenue from selling 143 wands would be 1000 Galleons so he would 
have to sell 428 wands a year, or three times as many as wizarding 
folk are born each year. 

All I can figure is that the publications and Quidditch teams and 
industries are really just 'paying hobbies' (in the case of sports 
teams, that's called 'semi-pro'). People work on money-losing 
publications for love of journalism and the glory of seeing their 
names in print... this happens in our Muggle world, too. Science 
fiction fans used to publish vast number of 'zines', printed 
(ditto'd, mimeo'd, xeroxed, occasionally typed with carbon paper or 
written in multiple copies by hand) on paper, before the rising cost 
of paper intersected with the falling cost of Web access. Now there 
are all those Web pages that people spend many hours working on even 
tho' no one pays them. 

So if wizarding jobs are just labors of love, the things that Muggles 
do when we can take the time away from our day jobs, what do 
the wizarding folk do for a living? If they could conjure up all 
their housing and food and clothing and furniture (they *can* conjure 
up their transportation: Apparation), they wouldn't need money to 
live on, but the Weasleys wouldn't be so poor, right? So my guess is 
that every wizarding adult gets a stipend from the MoM (free tuition 
at Hogwarts for the kids, but not a stipend, or having so many 
children wouldn't make the Weasleys poor). If the government is 
handing out money in the form of stipends (the dole), it would be 
irrational for them to be taking that money back in the form of 
taxes... 

Where does MoM get the money to pay all those stipends? I like the 
idea of wizarding money growing on trees, very special and heavily 
guarded trees whose magical fruit is uncounterfeitable, but other 
ways that MoM could get money include regular pay-offs from the 
Muggle governments to stay hidden (with the implication that wizards 
out of hiding would do bad things to Muggles: this is blackmail) or 
using successful divination to make tons of Muggle money on the 
Muggle stock market or Muggle horse races..




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 24 20:01:54 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:01:54 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sherbet lemon
References: <9733rr+ktlj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A981332.E047020E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12932

Amy Z wrote:

> BTW, I've been going along thinking that sherbet lemon IS a lemon
> drop, since that's how it got "translated" in book 2 (? brain-fog here
> too--I think it was 2).  But it isn't, is it?

Yes. Sherbet lemon is Brit for lemon drop. Look at the scene (in GoF, I
think) where Harry is trying to get into Dumbledore's office, and tries
"candy" passwords--he starts with "sherbet lemon" (the password had been
"lemon drop" in an earlier book), and then tries "pear drop," among
others--and I had noted before that the transition from "sherbet lemon"
to other flavors of fruit "drops" would make absolutely no sense to an
American reader. [This is the scene where "cockroach cluster" does the
trick.]

--Amanda, who still only considers sherbet to be an iced dessert


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 24 20:04:31 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:04:31 -0000
Subject: Magical Theory
In-Reply-To: <01d601c09e8d$05535aa0$9c39acce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <97944f+7apd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12933

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at p...> 
wrote:
> I want to know specifically the differences between these things in
> the HP universe.  For instance, it's clear that Rowling does not
> consider charms to be "magical objects" if you look at the
> students' activities in Flitwick's class, (snip)

> I wonder if JKR really has a systematic magical theory worked out
> or whether she's just tossing around words like "spell", "hex",
> "jinx", "charm" and "curse" more or less at random according to how
> good they sound/look on paper?

IMHO (abbreviation for In My Humble Opinion), in JKR's world, all 
acts of magic are 'spells' with the possible exception of divination 
or brewing a potion or using a magical object that works of its own 
magic. And 'hex', 'jinx' and 'curse' are interchangeable words for a 
spell (and maybe also for a potion) that harms the recipient, which 
could be a charm or a transfiguration or something else that we 
haven't learned the word for yet. 

There are separate classes in Charms and Transfiguration. Somewhere 
JKR told us that a charm is a spell that changes the 'behavior' of 
the recipient and a transfiguration is a spell that changes the 
recipient into something else. I still have a lot of trouble figuring 
out which is which in specific cases, as for example changing a 
Muggle teapot into a winged flying teapot that spells out rude words 
in LED would apparently be a charm rather than a transfiguration. But 
changing Millicent Bulstrode to look like Cho Chang would be a 
transfiguration?

We've seen magical objects: the Sorting Hat, the Goblet of Fire, the 
Riddle diary, the Marauders' Map, a cursed opal necklace that has 
taken the lives of 19 Muggle owners ... I have made up a theory that 
the generic term for magical objects is Amulets, that Amulet Making 
is a sixth and seventh year elective, that Lily was exceptionally 
good at Amulets... But I don't know whether there is a difference 
between magical objects that contain part of the creators' mind 
(Riddle diary, Marauders' Map, maybe Sorting Hat ... maybe, for all 
we know, the Goblet of Fire itself) and ones that don't (flying 
broomsticks).







From ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com  Sat Feb 24 20:19:15 2001
From: ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com (ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:19:15 -0000
Subject: Just wondering
Message-ID: <979503+kck9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12934

Okay, We know that when a person conjures up a Patronus,it takes on a 
differnet form for each person. I was wonderin do you think it would 
be the same for animagi?
Does the animagi pick which form they take or is it already 
predetermined?
When James, Sirus and Peter would change shape to help Lupin, I can 
see why a dog, but a stag and a rat?
Just a thought.




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Feb 24 20:22:02 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:22:02 -0000
Subject: Sherbet lemon
In-Reply-To: <3A981332.E047020E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97955a+p95u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12935

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Amy Z wrote:
> 
> > BTW, I've been going along thinking that sherbet lemon IS a lemon
> > drop, since that's how it got "translated" in book 2 (? brain-fog 
here
> > too--I think it was 2).  But it isn't, is it?
> 
> Yes. Sherbet lemon is Brit for lemon drop. Look at the scene (in 
GoF, I
> think) where Harry is trying to get into Dumbledore's office, and 
tries
> "candy" passwords--he starts with "sherbet lemon" (the password had 
been
> "lemon drop" in an earlier book), and then tries "pear drop," among
> others--and I had noted before that the transition from "sherbet 
lemon"
> to other flavors of fruit "drops" would make absolutely no sense to 
an
> American reader. [This is the scene where "cockroach cluster" does 
the
> trick.]
> 
> --Amanda, who still only considers sherbet to be an iced dessert
> 
> 
You are right .. this has been very confusing. So, the sherbet balls 
that make you levitate are also candy drops?

I think I first got confused when someone asked JKR why Dumbledore 
used "sherbet lemon" as a password ... and I could not find that in 
my book... but rather he used lemon drop (CS-11) and in (SS-1)he was 
eating lemon drops when he was talking to McGonagall in the Dursley's 
yard.

Thank you for clearing that up ... 
Doreen who is not sure she wants to know what tripe is




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Feb 24 20:31:10 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:31:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Just wondering
References: <979503+kck9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000801c09ea0$bac67c60$3514a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12936


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 2:19 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Just wondering


  Okay, We know that when a person conjures up a Patronus,it takes on a 
  differnet form for each person. I was wonderin do you think it would 
  be the same for animagi?
  Does the animagi pick which form they take or is it already 
  predetermined?
  When James, Sirus and Peter would change shape to help Lupin, I can 
  see why a dog, but a stag and a rat?
  Just a thought.

  In PoA-18 it says "They could each turn into a different animal at will." 
  "Peter, as the smallest, could slip beneath the Willow's attacking branches and touch the knot that freezes it."
  "Sirius & James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check."

  Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 24 20:30:04 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:30:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sherbet lemon
References: <97955a+p95u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9819CC.601CF3D0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12937

Doreen Rich wrote:

> Thank you for clearing that up ...
> Doreen who is not sure she wants to know what tripe is

You don't. Menudo, either (which has not shown up in the books but is
definitely as icky as tripe, and you Scots with your haggis just stay
the heck out of it)

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb 24 20:36:15 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:36:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagus forms
References: <979503+kck9@eGroups.com> <000801c09ea0$bac67c60$3514a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3A981B3E.7EA219C7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12938

Doreen wrote:

>   Does the animagi pick which form they take or is it already
> predetermined?  When James, Sirus and Peter would change shape to help
> Lupin, I can see why a dog, but a stag and a rat?
>   Just a thought.
>
>   In PoA-18 it says "They could each turn into a different animal at
> will."
>   "Peter, as the smallest, could slip beneath the Willow's attacking
> branches and touch the knot that freezes it."
>   "Sirius & James transformed into such large animals, they were able
> to keep a werewolf in check."
>
>   Doreen

It's not stated in the books anyplace, but from something JKR said in a
chat, I'm pretty sure that one's animagus form is determined by some
interaction of spell with personality. In other words, is your *self*
rather than conscious choice that determines your animal form. JKR had
said that if she was an animagus, she hoped she'd be an otter. "Hoped,"
not "would be." It's not up to her, at least not consciously.

Look in the archives--there was a bit of discussion on this a while
back.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Sat Feb 24 20:40:23 2001
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (rhodhry at yahoo.no)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:40:23 -0000
Subject: Movie/Casting: The teachers in those pics/suggestions for Pomfrey, Sprout, Fudge etc/cool pic of Tom Felton
In-Reply-To: <978o9u+3lih@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97967n+q9cp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12939

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rhodhry at y... wrote:
[snip]
> Could the image be from a quidditch-match instead?

I realize in retrospect that this was a little silly of me - the 
clothes they are wearing are not suitable for quidditch.  That leaves 
the question of what a Hufflepuff-student is doing in a class of only 
Slytherin- and Gryffindor-students.  I simply cannot think of any 
other broom-related situation that this picture fits.  Perhaps the 
script-editor did a flint?




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Feb 24 20:30:00 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:30:00 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sherbet lemon (getting OT)
References: <9733rr+ktlj@eGroups.com> <3A981332.E047020E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <003a01c09ea0$a4835400$443770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12940

> Amy Z wrote:

> > BTW, I've been going along thinking that sherbet lemon IS a lemon
> > drop, since that's how it got "translated" in book 2 (? brain-fog here
> > too--I think it was 2).  But it isn't, is it?

Amanda suggested:

> Yes. Sherbet lemon is Brit for lemon drop.

Despite the compelling evidence presented by Amanda, lemon drops and sherbet
lemons are not the same thing.  A lemon drop is a solid boiled sweet (US:
hard candy?) and a sherbet lemon (or lemon sherbet) is similar but with a
centre full of effervescent sherbet  powder; often called just a 'sherbet'.
I guess the US translators got a bit confused somewhere along the way...

There's also a sherbet fountain (or liquorice fountain) - a paper tube of
sherbet powder with a hollow 'straw' of liquorice stuck in it, through which
you suck the powder. Oh, and Flying Saucers - multi-coloured rice paper
'UFOs' containing sherbet powder.  I'm not sure if they are still around,
but I have fond memories of these sweets from my childhood... and, yes, I
still have all my own teeth.

Neil

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (engine off)

"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]

The moderators say: "Check out our netiquette tips!:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

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From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Feb 24 21:22:57 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:22:57 -0000
Subject: Number of teacherspopulation/wizarding economy
In-Reply-To: <9792pu+adhb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9798nh+6s1m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12941

Rita, nice post. There are a few inconsistencies with the canon as I 
read it, however, and I also have my usual rambling comments to add, 
so if you don't mind, I'll skip through here and note them. :)


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> 
> I don't know whether it is 'clever scheduling', but there do seem 
to 
> be times during the day when some students are in class but other 
> students have 'free time'. Little things like Harry looking at his 
> timetable and seeing that he has no classes on Friday afternoons...

I don't think anyone has Friday afternoon classes, although maybe 
this is just one of my Unwarranted Assumptions.

> 
> I've made up a vague theory that the few teachers handle so many 
> class hours by scheduling many classes to meet only once a week, or 
> even only once every two weeks. I made Snape a schedule where he 
> teaches Gryffindor/Slytherin Double Potions every morning and 
> Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff Double Potions every afternoon (three or four 
> hour classes) to first years on Monday, second years on Tuesday, 
> third years on Wednesday, fourth years on Thursday, fifth years on 
> Fridays, sixth years and seventh years on alternate Saturdays. If 
he 
> grades the homework himself, no teaching assistants, he has no time 
> to sleep, let alone live.

This makes good sense. And I think some upperclass students might not 
need Snape there at all for a lot of their work, it could be more of 
an independent study. After all, if they were working on Polyjuice 
potions, it would take weeks to finish. Maybe they would turn in 
writing--journals, lab notes, etc.--and have once a month sessions. 
For that matter, upperclass students might supervise some classes, 
too, once they got away from so much theory work and spent more time 
experimenting.

> 

> I've been thinking that 1000 students (at Hogwarts as JKR said and 
I 
> believe, or divided among several schools which seems more 
plausible, 

JKR made it pretty clear that there weren't other schools. I think 
that if there are, they aren't schools in the same sense as Hogwarts, 
more geared toward a particular trade, perhaps. 

> or being educated by apprenticeships instead of schools)

Again, I think this best fits the kind of society we see in the 
Wizarding World. I use the term "medieval" to describe it, not to 
suggest that it's bad or backward, but that it's social structures 
fit that model.

 would be a 
> wizarding population of 15,000 to 18,000. (Because I think that 
> Dumbledore's age of 150 years is a long rather than an average 
length 
> life time, even for wizards.) 
> 
> Even raising it to your 20,000, the finances don't work out for all 
> those periodicals and Quidditch teams and industries.

Exactly. I think the wizarding population of Britain, to support the 
culture we see, would have to be ten times that, even more. True, 
there were only a few families around Ottery St. Catchpole, but I 
think that the population would be concentrated around certain areas -
- London, for example, where the ministry is and Diagon Alley. There 
could be thousands of them living unobtrusively in London. I've been 
there. There are plenty of folks there who look like they might just 
qualify.

 The industries 
> seem to me to be very small operations, but even so... I figured, 
> with a LOT of assumptions: that Ollivander charges an average of 7 
> Galleons for a wand (that was the price of Harry's), that he owns 
his 
> store and workshop outright, no rent, no real estate taxes, and 
that 
> a small family needs 1000 Galleons a year to live even a thrify 
> middle-class way of life, that the profit on wands is one-third (he 
> has to pay wand-makers as well materials)

I believe that Ollivander is the wand-maker himself. And he goes out 
and collects the materials too (he remembered a particular unicorn, 
for example). It's very much a cottage industry, which is the way all 
industries were pre-industrial revolution.

, that 1000/7 is the number 
> of entering first-years getting their first wands (seven years of 
> school, seven Galleons for a wand, convenient coincidence). The 
> revenue from selling 143 wands would be 1000 Galleons so he would 
> have to sell 428 wands a year, or three times as many as wizarding 
> folk are born each year. 

While more people buy wands than just first year Hogwarts students, 
he probably doesn't sell all that many more than 150 or so. But I 
don't imagine Ollivander as being a typical example of a wizard shop-
owner. He seems to be extremely old and he has supernormal memory 
etc. I think he's very unusual. I imagine him living in the dusty 
back room of the shop, almost totally engrossed in that little world. 
His needs and wants would be few, then. Other shop owners, say the 
guy who runs Quality Quidditch Supplies, would be a different story 
indeed.

> 
> All I can figure is that the publications and Quidditch teams and 
> industries are really just 'paying hobbies' (in the case of sports 
> teams, that's called 'semi-pro'). 

This just doesn't work with what we see, in my opinion. Everything we 
see would lead us to believe that it's a real economy. Some are rich, 
some are poor. The goods they provide aren't conjured up at will, 
they're carefully constructed and produced for purchase for real 
money. Think of all those boxes of sweets in Honeydukes basement. 
Someone had to make them, box them, transport them, etc. I can't 
believe that someone boxes all those sweets as a hobby. You'd 
certainly have to pay ME if you wanted me to do it. Same with being a 
dishwasher at the Leaky Cauldron.


> the wizarding folk do for a living? If they could conjure up all 
> their housing and food and clothing and furniture (they *can* 
conjure 
> up their transportation: Apparation)

By far most witches and wizards do not Apparate. It's carefully 
controlled and can be dangerous. The broomstick is the transportation 
of choice. That and Floo Powder, but you have to PURCHASE the powder, 
so using that form of transport requires money too.

, they wouldn't need money to 
> live on, but the Weasleys wouldn't be so poor, right? So my guess 
is 
> that every wizarding adult gets a stipend from the MoM (free 
tuition 
> at Hogwarts for the kids, but not a stipend, or having so many 
> children wouldn't make the Weasleys poor). If the government is 
> handing out money in the form of stipends (the dole), it would be 
> irrational for them to be taking that money back in the form of 
> taxes... 

Interesting idea. It just doesn't ring true to me--the economy we see 
is very much a real one, with things bought and sold, and as you say, 
the Weasley's really ARE poor. We don't see food etc. conjured up 
from nothing, with the exception of a sauce, and we don't know if 
that was conjured or simply moved from pan to bowl by wand, nor do 
people conjure money. It would seem that there are more limits on 
magic than we see, perhaps because the people at Hogwarts are the 
cream of the crop, so to speak, so they can actually do MORE magic 
than most common folk. Your average witch or wizard in Diagon Alley 
is fairly low on the magical ability scale and relies as much on 
sweat and toil as much as on magic on a day to day basis.

Okay, now I'm seeing the makings of an interesting essay for the 
Lexicon here. Maybe I'll do some writing tonight...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 22:04:54 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:04:54 -0000
Subject: Sherbet lemon (getting OT)/US translation
In-Reply-To: <003a01c09ea0$a4835400$443770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <979b66+pn93@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12942

Neil wrote: 

> Amanda suggested:
> 
> > Yes. Sherbet lemon is Brit for lemon drop.
> 
> Despite the compelling evidence presented by Amanda, lemon drops 
> and sherbet lemons are not the same thing.  A lemon drop is a solid 
> boiled sweet (US: hard candy?) and a sherbet lemon (or 
lemon .sherbet) is similar but with a centre full of effervescent 
sherbet  powder; often called just a 'sherbet'. I guess the US 
translators got a bit confused somewhere along the way...
> 
> 
> Neil
> 

Well, I don't think it's confusion so much as familiarity with an 
American muggle candy called "Lemonheads" which are made with lots of 
sugar and have a sour lemon coating. They are not hard candies. When 
someone says "lemon drops" I think of those little yellow candies, so 
sour and lemony on the outside and so intensly sweet on the inside. 
Lemon sherbet in the USA is a frozen lemon iced treat (like ice 
cream, but no cream).

So in SS when Dumbledore eats lemon drops, I didn't imagine him 
sucking on a hard candy; rather, eating a sweet and sour squishy that 
comes in a box of ~30. When I read PS, lemon sherbet didn't mystify 
me, but I promise if I hadn't read SS first, I would have 
thought "Good heavens, what in the world??????" 

But, what is effervescent sherbet powder????


Heather M., 
who has eaten a LOT of Lemonheads, and considers that if they are 
like sherbet lemons, Dumbledore has exceedingly good taste in 
candies, although she hasn't seen him eat any caramels.




From Allyse at my-deja.com  Sat Feb 24 22:17:09 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:17:09 -0000
Subject: Multiple post: Widow of Kent/movie pics/pain in scar
Message-ID: <979bt5+3ace@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12943

Thanks to those of you who helped track down any mention of 
the "Widow of Kent" in British history. I didn't need to know 
details; it's enough for me to know that such a person actually 
existed. Another delicious example of Jo's keen eye for in-character 
humor. (who doesn't snicker at the thought of Hagrid buying Fluffy 
from a Greek chap in a pub?) Maybe you should add that one to the 
Lexicon, Steve. :)

I had a look at the stills from the movie. Granted, any movie 
interpretation will be someone's interpretation other than my own, 
much like the Jim Dale audios, which I enjoy as entertainment rather 
than a true rendition, or the upcoming Tolkien movie (although I 
really, really like Merry from what I've seen!). So it doesn't bother 
me all that much when movies aren't completely true to books. *I* 
know the real interpretation is the one in *my* head, and that's good 
enough for me. ;)

Ron seems a bit short. Okay, I can live with that. Dumbledore looks 
like a rabbi in a witch's hat. :) Okay, I can live with too. But if, 
as B.K. states on his site, that's supposed to be Dean Thomas in the 
broomsticks scene, then I'm really disappointed. I don't advocate 
casting "minorities" for PC reasons (and minorities is in quotes on 
purpose, I don't want to raise hackles here), but if characters that 
are *supposed* to be black are cast with white actors, then it's 
really stupid. Will Angelina and Lee be cast with white actors too? 
(Okay, there's no canonical proof that Lee is black; I've just 
assumed it from his dreadlocks.)

As for the sudden pain in Harry's scar when Snape first looks at him: 
I recently listened to an audio recording of a Q&A session with Jo 
which addressed that very question. After making sure non-readers 
covered their ears to prevent spoilers <g>, she explained that 
Quirrel had, at that moment, looked away - which meant that 
Voldemort, in the back of Quirrel's head, was looking directly at 
Harry. To touch on the shipping debate, BTW, she also said that H&H 
share a "platonic" relationship, and added "nudge nudge wink wink" in 
reference to anyone else. Don't gang up on me, now! I'm an anti-
shipper! I'm just passing that comment along. :)

Allyse

"Thomas, Dean," a black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the 
Gryffindor table. -- The Sorting Hat, PS




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Feb 24 22:38:46 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:38:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] broomsticks picture (was Multiple Post)
Message-ID: <014701c09eb2$941a6920$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 12944

Allyse wrote:

<<Ron seems a bit short. Okay, I can live with that. Dumbledore looks 
like a rabbi in a witch's hat. :) Okay, I can live with too. But if, 
as B.K. states on his site, that's supposed to be Dean Thomas in the 
broomsticks scene, then I'm really disappointed. >>

Actually, that's not Dean, it's Seamus. <g> Coloring seems to be right, but I never pictured him so short. LOL Oh, well. Same goes for Ron - he isn't really how I pictured him. But I've heard good things about his acting, so I'm willing to overlook the fact that he's supposed to be taller than Harry, but is shorter. <g>

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Feb 24 23:05:18 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:05:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] We'll All Be Sorted (filk)
References: <982924096.448.54607.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001301c09eb6$428f54e0$a8c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 12945

(Author's Note: Of course, the Sorting Hat does original material, and
presumably, original music..But what if it did filks? Perhaps it would sound
something like this.)

We'll All Be Sorted  (from HP/SS, Chapter 7)

(To the tune of I'm So Excited)

Dedicated to Sister Mary Lunatic

(The Scene: The Sorting Ceremony at the Hogwarts Great Hall.  HARRY with all
the other first years, is waiting nervously as the Sorting Hat launches into
its annual gig)

SORTING HAT
A thousand years ago the Hogwarts Founders
Placed within a simple garment of headware
A sophisticated database Sort function
Far beyond the Muggles' most advanced software

SORTING HAT
If I say "Slytherin,"....

CHORUS OF OLDER STUDENTS
                        ...you're in!
If "Hufflepuff," sure 'nough!

SORTING HAT
If "Gryffindor".....

CHORUS OF OLDER STUDENTS
                            ...is called for
Then you are through their door!

SORTING HAT
If "Ravenclaw,".....

CHORUS OF OLDER STUDENTS
                         ...well that then says it all!

CHORUS OF FIRST-YEARS
We'll all be sorted!
That hat reported!
It's about to name the house to which we'll  be escorted!
When it's done sorting
We'll start cavorting
It knows it knows it knows it knows
All 'bout us 'bout us 'bout us

(The SORTING HAT decides to do a random rather than alaphabetic sort this
year, and calls HARRY first)

SORTING HAT
I'm now upon the head of Harry Potter
A fascinating challenge I might explain
Shall Gryffindor help amplify your glory
Or will Slytherin grant your brilliance its full reign?

If I say Slytherin, you're in.....

HARRY
No you can't send there
See my lip stiffen, Gryffin -
Dor's where I want to be....

SORTING HAT
                         ....so if in fact
Then we now have a contract!
(spoken) GRYFFINDOR!

(HARRY rushes to the GRYFFINDOR table, who welcome him with open arms, while
SLYTHERIN looks angry and betrayed)

HARRY & CHORUS OF GRYFFINDOR STUDENTS
I have/Harry's been sorted!
I/We feel transported!
The House of Slytherin for me/him is way too sordid
Slytherin's been thwarted!
Malfoy just snorted!

CHORUS OF GRYFFINDOR STUDENTS (simultaneously with below)
We know  we know we know we know
We got you! Got you! Got you!

CHORUS OF SLYTHERIN STUDENTS (simultaneously with above)
You know  You know You know You know
We'll get you! Get you! Get you!

(The HAT, with necessary variations, runs through 60* or so choruses of the
song, one for each new first-year.  No wonder it only does this once a
year!)

- CMC

*or however many first-years in Harry's cohort group





From bkdelong at pobox.com  Sat Feb 24 23:20:02 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:20:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] broomsticks picture (was Multiple Post)
In-Reply-To: <014701c09eb2$941a6920$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010224181706.05567500@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12946

At 04:38 PM 02/24/2001 -0600, Rina Stewart wrote:
>Actually, that's not Dean, it's Seamus. <g> Coloring seems to be right, 
>but I never pictured him so short. LOL Oh, well. Same goes for Ron - he 
>isn't really how I pictured him. But I've heard good things about his 
>acting, so I'm willing to overlook the fact that he's supposed to be 
>taller than Harry, but is shorter. <g>

Yeah, my site says that the guy is Seamus. But the guy behind Ron that you 
can barely see is black. Or at least looks like it from for what little we 
can see.

--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From katie at vquill.com  Sat Feb 24 23:05:57 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:05:57 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sherbet lemon (getting OT)
In-Reply-To: <003a01c09ea0$a4835400$443770c2@c5s910j>
References: <9733rr+ktlj@eGroups.com> <3A981332.E047020E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010224150526.00ae3270@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12947

At 08:30 PM 2/24/01 +0000, you wrote:
>
>There's also a sherbet fountain (or liquorice fountain) - a paper tube of
>sherbet powder with a hollow 'straw' of liquorice stuck in it, through which
>you suck the powder. Oh, and Flying Saucers - multi-coloured rice paper
>'UFOs' containing sherbet powder.  I'm not sure if they are still around,
>but I have fond memories of these sweets from my childhood... and, yes, I
>still have all my own teeth.
>
>Neil

Oh!!! Pixie stix! ;)

Wow... I think I want a sherbet lemon then. Mmmm....

-Katie





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 24 23:40:54 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:40:54 -0000
Subject: Number of teacherspopulation/wizarding economy
In-Reply-To: <9798nh+6s1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <979gq7+aaf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12948

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:

> JKR made it pretty clear that there weren't other schools.

Yes, and JKR said there are 1000 students at Hogwarts. JKR's own 
statements are the ONLY reasons I believe in 1000 students at 
Hogwarts rather than in small but multiple schools. Your suggestion
of apprenticeships co-ordinates with Hogwarts being both small and 
only, but I still don't believe it. That's just my personal feeling.
> 
> Exactly. I think the wizarding population of Britain, to support
> the culture we see, would have to be ten times that, even more. 

200,000 wizarding folk in Britain? Then even if only the most 
talented or connected children attend Hogwarts, Hogwarts would have
to be a big school. Also, wouldn't' Muggles start noticing?
> 
> I believe that Ollivander is the wand-maker himself. And he goes
> out and collects the materials too (he remembered a particular
> unicorn, for example). It's very much a cottage industry, which is
> the way all industries were pre-industrial revolution.

I'm thinking that wands are So Magical that one person couldn't make 
143 wands a year, maybe not even 50 wands a year, so Ollivander would 
need offspring or apprentices or journeymen or relationships with 
at-home wandmakers scattered around the country. I was thinking that 
two full-time or a double handful of very part-time 'colleagues' 
would meet the demand. 

That's still a cottage industry, and I see the other industries as 
also cottage industries. Take broomstick makers as an example:... 

For example, I stole from some fanfic I forgot that James' broomstick 
is a Thunderbolt. I wrote a scene in which his broomstick gets 
smashed up, followed by his visit to Quality Quidditch, where he 
hears all the great rumors about 'the Thunderbolt people' having come 
up with a very excellent new top of the line model that will be 
released in two months -- I then decided that 'the Thunderbolt 
people' are a family named Thorson who have been making broomsticks 
for 500 years. The family members do all the Research and Design but 
only some of the construction; the rest of the construction is done
as piecework by 'employees' in their own homes.
> 
> This just doesn't work with what we see, in my opinion. Everything
> we see would lead us to believe that it's a real economy. Some are
> rich, some are poor. 

I don't think that's a contradiction. If every wizard and witch gets
a stipend, for rich people like the Malfoys, the stipend is less than 
they spend on tips for restaurant wait staff, and for Stan of the 
Knight Bus, it's half his income. Some people are rich mainly from 
inheritance (the inheritance could be land that is rented out, a mine 
from which a rare potion ingredient is mined, money that is invested 
in Muggle businesses, lot of things) and others get rich by providing 
goods or services that turn out to be very popular (maybe Celestina 
Warbeck with the admission fees to her concerts, maybe Fred and 
George when everyone buys their joke products).

> The goods they provide aren't conjured up at will, they're 
> carefully constructed and produced for purchase for real money.
> Think of all those boxes of sweets in Honeydukes basement.

They're all magical sweets, which doesn't prove that wizarding folk 
can't conjure up Muggle sweets. Okay, okay, what JKR depicts sure  
looks like only a wizard of Dumbledore's level can routinely conjure 
up stuff ex nihilo, altho' that just doesn't seem to jibe with Muggle 
folklore about wizarding folk. 

> Someone had to make them, box them, transport them, etc. I can't
> believe that someone boxes all those sweets as a hobby. You'd
> certainly have to pay ME if you wanted me to do it. Same with being
> a dishwasher at the Leaky Cauldron.

Okay, some of the jobs are not just a 'paying hobby' but are a source 
of additional income (similar to the old Muggle idea of 'pin money' 
and the new Muggle idea of 'moonlighting'). If the stipend were only 
enough to live in dire poverty, people who couldn't supplement it 
with inherited assets might want to supplement it with the least 
unpleasant work they can get hired for. Altho' I can fantasize that 
some people would WANT to be dishwasher at the Leaky Cauldron as a way 
of being in place to hear all the gossip of wizardom...

> By far most witches and wizards do not Apparate. It's carefully 
> controlled and can be dangerous.

I got the impression that more adult witches and wizards Apparate 
than not. In Muggledom, driving motor vehicles is carefully 
controlled and can be dangerous, but everyone who learns that I don't 
have a driver's license freaks out. Angelenos cannot conceive of an 
adult who does not have a driver's license except if heesh is legally 
blind or has had hiser license revoked for too much drunk driving, 
even one who chooses not to drive for eyesight or seizure reasons. 
And usually people who have had their licenses revoked drive anyway.





From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Feb 24 23:41:26 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:41:26 -0000
Subject: Sherbet lemon (getting OT)/US translation
In-Reply-To: <979b66+pn93@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <979gr6+krfl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12949

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:

(First part snipped)

> But, what is effervescent sherbet powder????
> 
> 
> Heather M., 
> who has eaten a LOT of Lemonheads, and considers that if they are 
> like sherbet lemons, Dumbledore has exceedingly good taste in 
> candies, although she hasn't seen him eat any caramels.

I would imagine effervescent sherbet powder is much the same as that 
old muggle sweet...pixie stix (which you can still buy, believe it or 
not!) If you've never had them as a child, they do effervesce in your 
mouth. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker

----------------------------------------------------------------------
"...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death..."  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

"Sarcasm--just one more service I offer"  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------






From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 24 23:46:51 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:46:51 -0000
Subject: OT Re: Sherbet lemons and Pixie Stix (getting OT)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010224150526.00ae3270@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <979h5b+j257@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12950

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Katie Kearns <katie at v...> wrote:
> At 08:30 PM 2/24/01 +0000, Neil wrote:

> > There's also a sherbet fountain (or liquorice fountain) - a paper
> > tube of sherbet powder with a hollow 'straw' of liquorice stuck
> > in it, through which you suck the powder
> 
> Oh!!! Pixie stix! ;)

Thank you for remembering the name. I can never remember the name
even tho' I immediately saw their image when reading of Neil's 
Licorice Fountains: one-color-striped white paper tubes looking like 
drinking straws with the ends crimped shut. They contain colored 
flavored powdered sugar -- that must be what Neil means by 'sherbet 
powder' (sherbet or sherbert, I can never remember?). There is no 
licorice tube involved and they didn't come in a licorice flavor when 
I was young.




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Feb 25 01:02:21 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:02:21 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] We'll All Be Sorted (filk)
In-Reply-To: <001301c09eb6$428f54e0$a8c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEJLDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12951

Caius wrote:
>>>>>>>>We'll All Be Sorted  (from HP/SS, Chapter 7)
(To the tune of I'm So Excited)
Dedicated to Sister Mary Lunatic<<<<<<<<<<<

Gee, thanks, Caius!  What did I do to deserve this?  It almost makes me not
jealous of "Doctor" Simon Branford and all his fanfic cameos, LOL!

Great song!!

S.M. Lunatic
(who really is not a nun, but you knew that!)

=======================================
The Heineken Uncertainty Principle:
You can never be sure how many beers
you had last night.
=======================================





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 01:24:24 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:24:24 -0000
Subject: Fry as Sirius (was Fry versions on the web?)
In-Reply-To: <0ctf9t0alpvskbqpitdspu1mdr2kj47qtg@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <979ms8+m8fk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12952

Amy:

> >BTW, in searching unsuccessfully for audio, I found pics of 
him--I'd 
> >never seen him in anything--and he doesn't fit my view of Lupin, 
> >Ender, but I nominate him for Sirius.  Maybe it's just the Oscar 
Wilde 
> >connection (unjust imprisonment), but I can really picture it.

Monika:

> Who? Jim Dale or Stephen Fry? 

Fry. 

>I can't see either of them as Sirius!

Well, we each have our unique inner visions.  I still think Daniel 
Day-Lewis is better, mind.

Amy Z
~who went into a movie theater today just to see the teaser poster 
close up.  Think they'll give it to me when they take it down, if I 
ask very nicely?~




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 02:22:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 02:22:02 -0000
Subject: Hufflepuff - Extraneous snake - Sherbet - Fridays - Pain in scar
Message-ID: <979q8a+oeqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12953

Whew!  Trying to consolidate replies, like a good girl.

Hufflepuff in broom still:  I wouldn't be surprised if the filmmakers 
put all 4 houses in Flying together.  It's not canon, but it isn't 
necessary to the plot to have ONLY Gr. and Sl. there.  I do think it 
looks like the flying lesson scene.

Speaking of things not necessary to the plot, I had an awful thought 
today:  if I were a screenwriter and had to cut a scene from the book 
(which they always do--filming a whole novel is seldom possible within 
the usual film length), I would excise the zoo scene.  It isn't 
necessary to PS/SS, and although it comes up in CoS, it isn't 
strictly necessary there either; I read CoS before PS/SS and I 
understood the Parselmouth scene perfectly well, including Harry's 
sketchy retelling of the boa story to Ron and Hermione.  But I'd hate 
to lose that scene 'cause I really dig that snake!  "Thankssss, 
amigo!"  I was psyched, when I read PS, to learn that the scene 
described by Harry in CS was actually fleshed out there.

Neil wrote:

>...lemon drops and sherbet lemons are not the same thing.  A lemon 
>drop is a solid boiled sweet (US: hard candy?) and a sherbet lemon 
>(or lemon sherbet) is similar but with a centre full of effervescent 
>sherbet  powder; often called just a 'sherbet'.
>I guess the US translators got a bit confused somewhere along the 
>way...

Yes, I think what we mean by "hard candy" is what you mean by "boiled 
sweet"--very hard, solid candies *usually* the same all the way 
through that are meant to be sucked (but I can never resist biting 
them--and yes, I still have all my teeth too!).  So is a pear drop a 
pear-flavored (sorry, flavoured <g>) boiled sweet?

And in the UK editions, what is Dumbledore eating on Privet Drive?  In 
the US ed. it's lemon drops, i.e. hard candy (though possibly 
Lemonheads, as vividly described by Amanda).

Steve wrote:

>I don't think anyone has Friday afternoon classes, although maybe 
>this is just one of my Unwarranted Assumptions.

Far be it from me to suggest that the Creator of the Lexicon ever 
makes Unwarranted Assumptions.  A small fact has simply slipped past 
him--our God is a fallible God.  Harry & Co. have Potions Friday 
afternoons in GoF.  Can't give you the citations, but there are a 
couple.

More on teachers' schedules:  very true, the classes could be (and 
seem to be) on a college-type schedule rather than a 
US-high-school-type schedule, i.e. they meet a couple times a week at 
most.  But as a former teacher, I'm thinking of number of preps here. 
 That, as much as total number of students, is one of the big measures 
of how much work a teacher has.  Even supposedly identical courses 
(e.g. 4th-year Potions, supposedly the same for each house) are never 
identical & end up being separate preps.  I've taught in a situation 
where I had 7 preps and I think it was close to the limit of 
possibility for a Muggle like myself.  Maybe wizards could handle 
more, but 20? 

Allyse wrote:

>she explained that 
>Quirrel had, at that moment, looked away - which meant that 
>Voldemort, in the back of Quirrel's head, was looking directly at 
>Harry. 

Oh yeah!  Wow, Jo, you're outdoing yourself.  That's really subtle.  
Cool!

Amy Z
who thinks sherbet lemons sound yummy!

----------------------------------------------
Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion
by turning into a large canary.
                  --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 02:56:15 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 02:56:15 -0000
Subject: Baggy clothes
Message-ID: <979s8f+f0gm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12954

One beloved (to me) detail the filmmakers got right:  in the still 
with the letters, Harry does indeed seem to be wearing Dudley's 
hand-me-downs.  It's hard to say for sure, but it appears that way.

Hoping so,
Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that
 stood alone in the middle of the grounds.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------




From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Sun Feb 25 03:02:20 2001
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:02:20 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Baggy clothes
Message-ID: <76.811c10a.27c9cfbc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12955

In a message dated 2/24/01 9:57:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:

<< One beloved (to me) detail the filmmakers got right:  in the still 
 with the letters, Harry does indeed seem to be wearing Dudley's 
 hand-me-downs.  It's hard to say for sure, but it appears that way.
 
 Hoping so,
 Amy Z
  >>
**** 
I thought the same thing. I love that picture. I put the one of Harry and Ron 
on my desktop as wallpaper.

      I can't wait for the movie....
        Tessie



From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 25 03:11:34 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:11:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sherbet lemon (getting OT)
References: <9733rr+ktlj@eGroups.com> <3A981332.E047020E@texas.net> <003a01c09ea0$a4835400$443770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <3A9877E6.5AB08A68@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12956

Neil Ward wrote:

> A lemon drop is a solid boiled sweet (US:hard candy?)

I've wondered about this ever since I read Charlie and the Chocolate
Factory as a child, where there was a boat made from a giant boiled
sweet. If you boil them, they'd melt, wouldn't they? I'm still confused.

> and a sherbet lemon (or lemon sherbet) is similar but with a
> centre full of effervescent sherbet  powder; often called just a
> 'sherbet'.
> I guess the US translators got a bit confused somewhere along the
> way...

Or took the closest analogue. There may not be something exactly like
this; I've never had anything like it. A true lemon drop is hard candy,
all the way through. I've never had Lemonheads.

> There's also a sherbet fountain (or liquorice fountain) - a paper tube
> of sherbet powder with a hollow 'straw' of liquorice stuck in it,
> through which you suck the powder. Oh, and Flying Saucers -
> multi-coloured rice paper
> 'UFOs' containing sherbet powder.  I'm not sure if they are still
> around, but I have fond memories of these sweets from my childhood...

Sounds like Pixie Stix, but they were just paper straws with tangy
powder inside, no candy tube. I still love Pixie Stix--kind of powdered
SweeTarts. They both make my teeth hurt (so do margaritas, alas).

Effervescent means it fizzes, kind of like Alka-Seltzer (or for those of
you old and weird enough, Fizzies). Our Pixy Stick powder is tart/sweet,
but it doesn't effervesce.

Want to make a care package of samples of these dainties and send them
to us poor benighted folk marooned in the uncivilized wilds of Texas...?
I'll distribute....

> and, yes, I still have all my own teeth.

I note the conspicuous absence of the confirmation that said teeth are,
in fact, in place in your mouth....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Allyse at my-deja.com  Sun Feb 25 03:20:16 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 03:20:16 -0000
Subject: broomsticks picture (was Multiple Post)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010224181706.05567500@brain-stream.com>
Message-ID: <979tlg+bm09@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12957

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" <bkdelong at p...> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, my site says that the guy is Seamus. But the guy behind Ron 
that you 
> can barely see is black. Or at least looks like it from for what 
little we 
> can see.

My bad. Thanks for the clarification. I'll read more carefully next 
time. :)

Allyse




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 03:45:40 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 03:45:40 -0000
Subject: Lemon Sherbets and class scheduling/teacher/student size etc.
In-Reply-To: <979q8a+oeqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <979v54+fdjg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12958

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> And in the UK editions, what is Dumbledore eating on Privet Drive?  
In 
> the US ed. it's lemon drops, i.e. hard candy (though possibly 
> Lemonheads, as vividly described by Amanda).

That was me, actually, not Amanda. He's eating sherbet lemons (the-
not-hard-candy-lemon-candy). I think I'm going to find some in 
London, and do a taste-test! 

But in all seriousness, I never think of lemon drops as hard candies -
 however, I never think to call anything a "drop". It's either a hard 
candy or I call it by its proper name (butterscotch, peppermint...). 
Regional disparity, perhaps? I'm from Missouri/Arkansas. 

> More on teachers' schedules:  very true, the classes could be (and 
> seem to be) on a college-type schedule rather than a 
> US-high-school-type schedule, i.e. they meet a couple times a week 
at where I had 7 preps and I think it was close to the limit of 
> possibility for a Muggle like myself.  Maybe wizards could handle 
> more, but 20? 

I teach the same class again and again and again. Once you've taught 
something, especially something as ancient as magic, how much does it 
change year-to-year? It's not a new prep unless you've never taught 
it before. If you've two classes of each year, that's 14 classes. 
Classes that are theoretically the same are still the same, in my 
experience, in terms of prep if not outcome. You don't need a 
seperate set of lecture notes. 

There is no reason to assume that there are only two class periods 
(AM and PM) per day, so I don't see any problem with the smallish 
number of teachers and the large number of students. In my high 
school of 600 students, there were about 18 teachers. Approximate 2 
hour class periods would yeild about 4 class period per day. 20 
classes per week. 

Not all subjects are required, either; we don't know if every year 
takes potions or transfiguration or astronomy. I took English every 
year in high school, but I only took math for three years, and 
science for three, and history three (different three in all cases). 


Heather M., who is certain she is forgetting something she wanted to 
say, but is still distracted by the thought of trying sherbet lemons.




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 03:49:29 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:49:29 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape - Casting, stills - Simon's sigs
Message-ID: <F753G9Vbj2ltpNebT9s000103b6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12959

Ok, 1st an apology to the admin for this senseless post, but i cant help but 
laugh.  Amanda, you have NO IDEA how right on you were.  I was TIRED bc i 
was working all night on my sci fair project about TIRES and testing Treads 
for safety, an idea i got during the recall.  Anyways, I am highly amused 
now...

Stephanie
Who is going to try never to make such a blatant typo again!



> > Stephanie
> > The Very Tires
>
>....?
>Should we recall you....?
>
>--Amanda, who's been very tires too at times, but still can't let it
>pass
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ryndavis10 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 00:10:53 2001
From: ryndavis10 at yahoo.com (Ryan Davis)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:10:53 -0700
Subject: Fireplace issue, used to be "Another movie picture."
References: <976qpt+ap3g@eGroups.com> <000201c09e04$7705cae0$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <000001c09eec$bfbed900$0200a8c0@cox.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12960

There is a fireplace in the kitchen, SS/PS Chapter Tree, where the letters entered the house, and a fireplace in the Living Room, GoF Chap 4.  Apparently the fireplace in the Living Room had been bordered up, but the kitchen was not.  Mr. Weasley I am sure just put one of the fireplaces on the Floo Network.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Denise R 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 6:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another movie picture.



  But, actually, it makes sense---Mr. Weasley has to blast the fireplace open
  because they get stuck in it when they come to call (with Toffees in their
  pockets...heehee).
  ______________________________________________
  ??????????????????????????????????????????????
  ??????????????????????????????????????????????
  ~~Dee~~
  :)

  We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
  There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
  our eyes open.

  -Jawaharlal Nehru
  Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
  http://www.icq.com

  For those who love to cook:
  http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
  ______________________________________________
  ??????????????????????????????????????????????
  ??????????????????????????????????????????????
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Jennifer Piersol" <jenP_97 at yahoo.com>
  To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 5:13 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another movie picture.


  > RE: Simon's statement about letters supposed to be flying out of the
  > chimney (sp?) in the kitchen, verses the living room...
  >
  > You know, this could also cause some problems later on (I'm thinking
  > specifically GOF, here)... if there are letters coming out of their
  > *fireplace*... they're going to have to do something after this
  > letter incident, like say, "Looks like we'll have to board this thing
  > up and install an electric fire now."  I suppose Warner Bros just
  > decided that the average American family just wasn't used to having a
  > chimney of any kind in the kitchen.  Imagine! ;)
  >
  > Jen (who now that Simon has mentioned it, has started to worry again)
  >
  >
  >
  > Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 06:30:25 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:30:25 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sherbet lemon (getting OT)  Sweets...
References: <9733rr+ktlj@eGroups.com> <3A981332.E047020E@texas.net> <003a01c09ea0$a4835400$443770c2@c5s910j> <3A9877E6.5AB08A68@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00d501c09ef4$710166e0$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12961

I recall an exploding candy in the late 70's-early 80's that's making a
comeback if IRC, called Pop Rocks.

There used to be Urban Legend about not drinking them with Coke (not true)
because it made the kids blow up.

I wonder if that's the centre that Neil is talking about?

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Sherbet lemon (getting OT)


> Neil Ward wrote:
>
> > A lemon drop is a solid boiled sweet (US:hard candy?)
>
> I've wondered about this ever since I read Charlie and the Chocolate
> Factory as a child, where there was a boat made from a giant boiled
> sweet. If you boil them, they'd melt, wouldn't they? I'm still confused.
>
> > and a sherbet lemon (or lemon sherbet) is similar but with a
> > centre full of effervescent sherbet  powder; often called just a
> > 'sherbet'.
> > I guess the US translators got a bit confused somewhere along the
> > way...
>
> Or took the closest analogue. There may not be something exactly like
> this; I've never had anything like it. A true lemon drop is hard candy,
> all the way through. I've never had Lemonheads.
>
> > There's also a sherbet fountain (or liquorice fountain) - a paper tube
> > of sherbet powder with a hollow 'straw' of liquorice stuck in it,
> > through which you suck the powder. Oh, and Flying Saucers -
> > multi-coloured rice paper
> > 'UFOs' containing sherbet powder.  I'm not sure if they are still
> > around, but I have fond memories of these sweets from my childhood...
>
> Sounds like Pixie Stix, but they were just paper straws with tangy
> powder inside, no candy tube. I still love Pixie Stix--kind of powdered
> SweeTarts. They both make my teeth hurt (so do margaritas, alas).
>
> Effervescent means it fizzes, kind of like Alka-Seltzer (or for those of
> you old and weird enough, Fizzies). Our Pixy Stick powder is tart/sweet,
> but it doesn't effervesce.
>
> Want to make a care package of samples of these dainties and send them
> to us poor benighted folk marooned in the uncivilized wilds of Texas...?
> I'll distribute....
>
> > and, yes, I still have all my own teeth.
>
> I note the conspicuous absence of the confirmation that said teeth are,
> in fact, in place in your mouth....
>
> --Amanda
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
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From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Feb 25 06:20:24 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 06:20:24 -0000
Subject: Multiple post: Widow of Kent/movie pics/pain in scar
In-Reply-To: <979bt5+3ace@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97a878+qja8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12962

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Allyse at m... wrote:

> humor. (who doesn't snicker at the thought of Hagrid buying Fluffy 
> from a Greek chap in a pub?) Maybe you should add that one to the 
> Lexicon, Steve. :)

It's in there. This is from the Beastiary section:

Fluffy 
  hellhound - (c.f. Cerberus, Greek mythology) 
  Hagrid got him from a "Greek chappie" 
  three-headed dog, music puts him to sleep (SS11) 


Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 07:29:15 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 07:29:15 -0000
Subject: Just wondering
In-Reply-To: <979503+kck9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97ac8b+dra5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12963

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ebragg31 at r... wrote:
> Okay, We know that when a person conjures up a Patronus,it takes on 
a 
> differnet form for each person. I was wonderin do you think it 
would 
> be the same for animagi?
> Does the animagi pick which form they take or is it already 
> predetermined?
> When James, Sirus and Peter would change shape to help Lupin, I can 
> see why a dog, but a stag and a rat?
> Just a thought.

In a recent Scholastic chat, JKR said something like this, if I 
recall correctly: 'If I were an animagus, I'd like to be an otter, as 
they're my favourite animal. I hope I wouldn't turn out to be 
something nasty like a slug.' Whilst this isn't the exact wording, it 
more or less implies that, no, someone does not choose what animal 
they transform into; rather it seems to be based on character traits 
and physical appearance.

Of course, you could always argue that the animagus someone 
transforms into is based on how skilled they are at magic. Sirius and 
James were very good wizards and were able to transform into large 
and powerful animals. Peter was the weakest of the three, in terms of 
magical ability, and could only manage to turn himself into a rat. 




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 25 07:28:48 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 07:28:48 -0000
Subject: Lemon sherbets/Lemon drops - clarification
Message-ID: <00b401c09efc$ad9a6d60$053570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12964

I think it's fair enough to keep this thread here, given its huge importance to our understanding of the canon. ;-)  However, I've also posted a response to some of the more OT stuff on British sweets (relating to things raised in this thread) in our OTChatter area: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter.  Anyone who hasn't joined yet, please check it out.  

**Lemon drops are solid, lemon-flavoured, hard (i.e. break-yer teeth crunchy) sugar candy.  I'm sure Amanda was joshing about her puzzlement over the term 'boiled sweet,' but, for the record, the term relates to the production process: if you boil sugar and leave it to cool, it goes hard.  There are other flavours of drops: 'pear drops' are, indeed pear-flavoured hard candies and another common variety is 'acid drops' (hold your letters of complaint: they don't contain LSD or sulphuric acid;  they are of no particular flavour, but very sharp in taste).

**Sherbet lemons have a case of lemon-flavoured hard candy and a core of sherbet powder.  The powder is effervescent, but not in the same way as the pops-on-your-tongue stuff some people have described (which is 'star dust' or the substance that's featured in the new 'Wonka' chocolate bars over here); it's like tangy powdered sugar (cf. icing sugar or Alka Seltzer, i.e. not granulated).  Just to confuse the issue even more, there is *another* kind, in which the shell is also infused with sherbet and tends to tingle on the tongue. At the start of PS, Dumbledore is eating lemon sherbets, which could be the former or the latter, IMO.

Amanda questioned my possession of teeth.  There are pictures of me in the Files section (one Snapified and one posing with a copy of CoS), but I didn't think to bare my teeth for those.  I assure you though, I can bite...

Neil
________________________________________

flying_ford_anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club:

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From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 11:53:12 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:53:12 -0000
Subject: Number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <978f8p+3bl0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97arn8+aprk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12965

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> (sighing and dragging out a worn copy of "Hogwarts: A Mathematics of 
> Course Scheduling")
> 
> Hermione here to say again that even if there were only 280 students, 
> the usual low-end guess, 12 teachers would not be enough.  There are 
> 28 divisions of students: 4 houses x 7 years.  Some double up for 
> certain classes, yielding, say, 20 groups.  One teacher simply cannot 
> cover 20 sections of Transfiguration, or Potions, or any other class 
> that every student takes every year, the way Muggles take English.  No 
> matter how small Hogwarts is, JKR is taking some artistic license--or 
> else McGonagall magically enables herself to teach 20 sections of 
> Transfiguration each term without going nuts.  (We might have the 
> explanation for Snape's chronic grumpiness here, come to think of it.)
> 
I know I'm being dense and that this subject has been done to death, but please bear with 
me. When I was at school (in Israel) our schedule was weekly. We studied maths. for instance 
once or twice a week (each lesson was one or two hours).  From the discussion here I gather 
that the schedule at Hogwarts is considered to be daily (that is, a daily lesson for each 
subject), right? Else I don't see the problem with one teacher teaching 20 lessons a week (4 
lessons a day? not very strenuos, I would think). I'm very bad at following these things in 
the books so I'll ask here - is there evidence that lessons are daily? I seem to recall 
things like astronomy lesson on Wednesday night and so on. 

Sorry if this has been repeated ad nauseam.

Naama




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Sun Feb 25 06:51:36 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:51:36 +1100
Subject: Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010225175136.007bfcd0@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12966

>> I think he'd be very good.
>Well we won't have to argue about that now will we ?

True.

>> Why would a popular actor/actress be an awful fate? It really depends
>on
>> the acting ability, not the popularity, IMO.
>Because if they are too popular then they may not take the part
>seriously enough. Not a problem with the two actors who have been cast.

Ah, I see. Oddly, I don't think that's the case with Alan Rickman. He just
*is* Snape. I like him very much.

>> And what does over eggs the pudding mean?
>Over acts.

Ah, I see. Yes...there are some who are guilty of that, aren't there?

>> As for James, I would love to see Samuel West in the role. He's one of
>my
>> favourite British actors, probably best known for being in Carrington
>with
>> Emma Thompson and the Hornblower movie The Frogs & The Lobsters.
>Ohh yes. Very good. Very good looking too.

I can't disagree. I'd love to see him in the movies *somewhere*. Actually,
he wouldn't make a bad Lockhart either (Though I still like the Cary Elwes
suggestion).

>> Joanne, who for some strange reason sees James Potter as having dark
>blonde
>> hair, even though Harry's is brown.
>Every one has their own mind's eye.

True. I also see Lily's hair as brown, which could be where Harry gets it
from, after all.

Joanne, who would also like to see Robert Lindsay turn up somewhere or
other...you know, there are so many wonderful British actors out there.

--

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversefic

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joanne_c

"You know you're famous when people start saying you're gay." Hunt Block.
"I gotta go see about a girl," Good Will Hunting
Official Commodus Concubine #1
Haakon's mistress
Founder of the Coalition For A Towel-Free Buck (CFTFB)
Founder of the Coalition For A Shirt-Free Chris (CFSFC)
Official Ray Vecchio Buttermilk Purveyor
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Half of the Dazed & Confused Duo with Margret
Jordan's godmother.




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Sun Feb 25 09:42:26 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:42:26 +1100
Subject: SHIP: Re: Little Women
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010225204226.007c05d0@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12967

>Well is you're a terrible person I must be too, I wasn't moved by Beth's
death either even though I read it at a really young age, 

I wasn't really moved by it either. I'm a *huge* LW fan, btw, so I had to
comment on this thread :).

>oh well that's just me, rarely moved by anything 

Some things really move me, and some just...don't. I think it depends on me
at the time more than whether the book/show, etc is more or less moving
than another, somehow.

>well can't think of anything at the moment other then I didn't care for
the ships of Little Women when I was younger but know I kinda like what she
did, go figure,

I didn't really have an opinion when I was younger. I didn't realise Amy
married Laurie for a really long time, for some reason, and when I did, I
was all for the idea. I *really* liked Jo & Laurie as friends, and in a
way, I think I'd have been disappointed if they had gotten married, I don't
think they'd be a good match. I also have a thing for bookish men, so I was
always very pleased that Jo found someone as compatible as Professor Bhaer
(sp?). Of course, I always identified with Jo...our names being very
similar (I'm often called Jo and answer to Jo or Joanne :).

Slightly off track...speaking of awful (IMO) casting choices, I never
understood the casting of Winona Ryder as Jo, but I'm not a fan of hers.

Joanne.

--

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversefic

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joanne_c

"You know you're famous when people start saying you're gay." Hunt Block.
"I gotta go see about a girl," Good Will Hunting
Official Commodus Concubine #1
Haakon's mistress
Founder of the Coalition For A Towel-Free Buck (CFTFB)
Founder of the Coalition For A Shirt-Free Chris (CFSFC)
Official Ray Vecchio Buttermilk Purveyor
Spike's Personal Happy Meal #6
Official LitD Brendan Slut #4
Half of the Dazed & Confused Duo with Margret
Jordan's godmother.




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Sun Feb 25 12:32:07 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:32:07 +1100
Subject: Fun post: which character would you most like to meet?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010225233207.007c05b0@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 12968

> OK, this is just a frivolous post. The questions are:
>  Which character would you most like to meet, and
>why?

Honestly...I'd like to meet Mr Weasley to tell him where he gets it wrong
with Muggle artifacts.
  
>  Which character would you most like to be friends   
>  with, and why?

Hmmmm...I'd like to be friends with Harry, because I'm too old for him
romantically, and I kind of like the idea of being his friend.

>  Which character would you most like to be involved  
>  with romantically, why, and describe a perfect first
>  date...

I'd actually like to be romantically involved with Bill Weasley, because I
like redheads, and I absolutely *melted* over the description of him in
GoF. And he's got to be old enough for me not to be thinking I'm molesting
a child...

The perfect first date would involve a moonlight broomstick ride, a good
bottle of wine, chocolate and a large four poster bed.

>  And, which character would you most like to be?

I don't suppose I could just say Bill's girlfriend? Well, aside from her...

I'd like to be Hermione, because I'm studious like she is. Not as organised
(at all), but she's close in a lot of ways to me at that age. Except for
the magic stuff.

Joanne.

--

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversefic

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joanne_c

"You know you're famous when people start saying you're gay." Hunt Block.
"I gotta go see about a girl," Good Will Hunting
Official Commodus Concubine #1
Haakon's mistress
Founder of the Coalition For A Towel-Free Buck (CFTFB)
Founder of the Coalition For A Shirt-Free Chris (CFSFC)
Official Ray Vecchio Buttermilk Purveyor
Spike's Personal Happy Meal #6
Official LitD Brendan Slut #4
Half of the Dazed & Confused Duo with Margret
Jordan's godmother.




From bohners at pobox.com  Sun Feb 25 13:00:27 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 08:00:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Number of teacherspopulation/wizarding economy
References: <9792pu+adhb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02a201c09f2a$effdbbc0$9c39acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 12969

> I've made up a vague theory that the few teachers handle so many
> class hours by scheduling many classes to meet only once a week, or
> even only once every two weeks. I made Snape a schedule where he
> teaches Gryffindor/Slytherin Double Potions every morning and
> Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff Double Potions every afternoon (three or four
> hour classes) to first years on Monday, second years on Tuesday,
> third years on Wednesday, fourth years on Thursday, fifth years on
> Fridays, sixth years and seventh years on alternate Saturdays. If he
> grades the homework himself, no teaching assistants, he has no time
> to sleep, let alone live.

Some suggestions here:

I don't think the classes have to be 3 or 4 hours long.  To teach a child
the basics of Potion-making when you have seven years to do it in, a 2-hour
class once a week would surely be sufficient.  Side question:  does "Double
Potions" mean "a class twice as long" or "two classes in a row", or does it
mean "we're doubling up with another class"?

If the latter, and Snape only taught two 2-hour classes each week for each
year, he could do it in three and a half days out of five, with weekends
free.  Teaching 8 hours a day is a pretty punishing schedule, admittedly,
and his school day would begin at eight and end at five (with an hour for
lunch).  But he often doesn't have to do much more than babysit the class
while they measure ingredients and stir their cauldrons.  Also, he seems to
do most of his grading in-class, because it's obvious right away whether a
person's potion works or doesn't once they've made it.  Potions is a very
hands-on course with, I suspect, not that much written work compared to,
say, History of Magic (which Prof. Binns can afford to teach as much as he
likes and still have time to grade papers because, of course, he's a ghost
and doesn't need to sleep).
--
Rebecca




From Allyse at my-deja.com  Sun Feb 25 15:12:05 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 15:12:05 -0000
Subject: For the Lexicon, was Re: Multiple post: Widow of Kent/movie pics/pain in scar
In-Reply-To: <97a878+qja8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97b7c5+kpuh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12970

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Allyse at m... wrote:
> >. (who doesn't snicker at the thought of Hagrid buying Fluffy 
> > from a Greek chap in a pub?) Maybe you should add that one to the 
> > Lexicon, Steve. :)
> 
> It's in there. This is from the Beastiary section:
> 
> Fluffy 
>   hellhound - (c.f. Cerberus, Greek mythology) 
>   Hagrid got him from a "Greek chappie" 
>   three-headed dog, music puts him to sleep (SS11) 
> 

Heh, and I thought I was writing clearly! I was suggesting that you 
add Mrs. Rowley, Widow of Kent, to the Lexicon - pointing out that 
she was a real person and not just a throwaway guest at Nick's 
deathday party. My mention of Fluffy was just another example of the 
enjoyment that adults can get out of this supposedly "children's" 
book. :)

Allyse, who at 30 definitely knows better than to call HP a 
children's book...




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 16:00:35 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:00:35 -0000
Subject: broomsticks picture (was Multiple Post)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010224181706.05567500@brain-stream.com>
Message-ID: <97ba73+6l1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12971


I don't think that is Seamus at all! Isn't it Ron??

--Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" <bkdelong at p...> wrote:
> At 04:38 PM 02/24/2001 -0600, Rina Stewart wrote:
> >Actually, that's not Dean, it's Seamus. <g> Coloring seems to be 
right, 
> >but I never pictured him so short. LOL Oh, well. Same goes for Ron 
- he 
> >isn't really how I pictured him. But I've heard good things about 
his 
> >acting, so I'm willing to overlook the fact that he's supposed to 
be 
> >taller than Harry, but is shorter. <g>
> 
> Yeah, my site says that the guy is Seamus. But the guy behind Ron 
that you 
> can barely see is black. Or at least looks like it from for what 
little we 
> can see.
> 
> --
> B.K. DeLong
> bkdelong at p...
> 617.877.3271
> 
> http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
> http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
> http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Sun Feb 25 16:07:13 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:07:13 -0000
Subject: to steve van der ark, Lexicon again
Message-ID: <97bajh+7og6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12972

In the list of students at hogwarts, I notice you have put mr and mrs 
weasley in the gryffindor house, but not Lily. But I?m sure ms 
Rowling said that she where sorted into Gryffindor in an online chat? 
And shouldn?t mr and mrs malfoy be in the slytherinlist? draco states 
that all of of his family went to hogwarts sorted into that house, i 
book 1. 
jennifer, 16 (from sweden, sorry if my english isn?t that good)




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 16:33:43 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:33:43 -0000
Subject: movie picture of the Sorting/number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <978qk5+q8bt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97bc57+l6ej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12973

We may not be that far apart on number of students. I'm at 450-500, 
which is half JKR's number, but I think 300 is way too low.

The notion that many wizard kids aren't trained at Hogwarts seems 
intuitive, but it contradicts JKR.  She said in an interview that a 
magical quill writes down the names of magical children as they're 
born. Once a year Professor McGonagall takes the names of those 
turning eleven and sends the letters out.  There doesn't seem to be 
room for another system. OTOH, I have a hard time picturing Stan 
Shunpike as a Hogwarts student.  

There's also a problem with muggle-borns. All of them would have to 
go to Hogwarts, otherwise they'd be completely at sea in the wizard 
world. What do you do, then, with a muggle-born who has magic in him 
but doesn't quite pack the gear for Hogwarts? and how are students 
for Hogwarts selected? This could set up resentments in wizard 
society, which IMO has built-in tensions between the muggle-born 
and "pureblood" brances of society.

BTW, has anyone ever tried to come up with a list/links page of all 
the JKR interviews available on the Net?




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 25 16:44:50 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:44:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others
References: <3.0.6.32.20010225175136.007bfcd0@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <3A993681.C6FCEF95@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12974

Joanne Collins wrote:

> >> Joanne, who for some strange reason sees James Potter as having
> dark blonde hair, even though Harry's is brown. Every one has their
> own mind's eye.
>
> True. I also see Lily's hair as brown, which could be where Harry gets
> it from, after all.

But Harry's hair is *black,* isn't it? Where are you getting brown?

--Amanda



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 16:57:22 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:57:22 -0000
Subject: Number of teachers
In-Reply-To: <978nv0+tlb2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97bdhi+i2jr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12975

rhodhry:"Great Britain and Ireland together have 60 million 
inhabitants, constituting 1/100 of the world population.  With 300 
students at Hogwarts, 6000 witches and wizards total (all ages) in 
Great Britain and Ireland, you will have (assuming identical 
distribution) a world population of 600 000 witches and wizards."

It's worse even than that.  My daughters live in a town with 55,000 
inhabitants.  There are 366 students in six years [not seven] in 
there school. I found out there are eleven schools in their town [not 
eight or nine like I said in other posts]. IF the number of students 
in each school is about equal, then the wizard population of the UK 
is closer to 4000 than 6000. Neither way do you have a viable society.

Steve and others have suggested there are alternatives to a Hogwarts 
education, and it seems intuitive that would be so, but JKR said once 
that a magical quill rights down the name of each magical child born, 
that Professor McGonagall checks the book every year, and that she 
sends out 'the letter' to those turning eleven.

I believe, like you, that the wizarding population has to be higher 
for there to be a viable society.  There's no reason to believe that 
the wizard birthrate is way different from the muggle population.

I think the real answer is JKR didn't work it all out.  It's not as 
important as the great stories and characters she's given us, but 
there's no 100% way to work out wizard society based on canon and 
JKR's statements (excuse me, "revelations."




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 25 17:01:49 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:01:49 -0600
Subject: Daily vs. weekly
References: <97arn8+aprk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A993A7C.2ED2752D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12976

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> I know I'm being dense and that this subject has been done to death,
> but please bear with me. When I was at school (in Israel) our schedule
> was weekly. We studied maths. for instance once or twice a week (each
> lesson was one or two hours).  From the discussion here I gather that
> the schedule at Hogwarts is considered to be daily (that is, a daily
> lesson for each subject), right? Else I don't see the problem with one
> teacher teaching 20 lessons a week (4
> lessons a day? not very strenuos, I would think). I'm very bad at
> following these things in the books so I'll ask here - is there
> evidence that lessons are daily? I seem to recall things like
> astronomy lesson on Wednesday night and so on.

An excellent point. I don't remember seeing it--although I must admit I
haven't followed *all* the minutiae of the number-of-students stuff,
which covered this a bit. And I've been trying to put my finger on this
very thing.

Most Americans don't do boarding schools. The concept of homework over
the summer is unbelievable heresy and a form of abuse. We do not go back
to the same teachers the next year (and consequently waste the first
part of the year establishing what the class does and doesn't know,
zzzzzzz). And we have a daily schedule, usually (where you attend each
course every day), unless it's one of the high schools that is
attempting to get the students used to the weekly schedules of college.

Then, when we go to college, we are hit with the unfamiliar terminology
of MWF or TTh classes, where you have the course on certain days. And
for longer than 30 minutes. Oooo. It's all part of the stress of
suddenly being dumped in a college environment and having to be an adult
All By Yourself, when up to a few weeks ago you could still sit at home,
raid the magical self-stocking fridge, and fuss at your mom for not
ironing your socks.

My point here is that Naama's right. I think Hogwarts classes are on a
weekly schedule, like American colleges and, apparently, British
boarding schools. The Hogwarts students *don't* go to every course every
day. That would lessen the load on the teachers, yes?

And you Brits, did any of you *really* have homework over the summer
holidays?

--Amanda, who was NOT kidding about boiled sweets, I really couldn't
figure it out; similar usages in the US--"boiled X"--involve X being put
into boiling water, and I just couldn't make it work with sugar without
simply getting syrup. Heather, take Neil *real* lemon drops, too!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 25 17:08:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:08:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Number of teachers
References: <97bdhi+i2jr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A993BF6.1280EDB2@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12977

Jim Ferer wrote:

> I think the real answer is JKR didn't work it all out.

Well, of *course* it is. Shhhh! If we answer it like that, we don't have
anything left to discuss, argue, and write about! (except the vital
international candy differences; a treaty is in the works to normalize
things).

>  It's not as important as the great stories and characters she's given
> us, but there's no 100% way to work out wizard society based on canon
> and JKR's statements (excuse me, "revelations."

If there is anybody out there who really thinks that JKR sat down and
did all this analysis and minutiae before she started, I have a really,
really nice bridge to sell you. Sure, she did some, but I think she'd be
flabbergasted by some of the detail we've gotten to. I've said before, a
great part of JKR's genius is that she makes it sound right. It works.
It gels. The sound of the names is perfect--and she did do some of the
associations deliberately, don't get me wrong--but some is
serendipitous. The "mix" of the wizard society she shows us "feels"
right, even if the numbers don't necessarily work (although a lot of
them do, which is also serendipitous). Etc. JKR has her finger on the
pulse of serendipity, which most of us don't, and that's a big part of
the magic of her work.

--Amanda (it really is a very nice bridge..)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 25 17:10:50 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:10:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] to steve van der ark, Lexicon again
References: <97bajh+7og6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A993C99.2B037CA3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12978

jennifer.k at lycos.com wrote:

> In the list of students at hogwarts, I notice you have put mr and mrs
> weasley in the gryffindor house, but not Lily. But I?m sure ms Rowling
> said that she where sorted into Gryffindor in an online chat? And
> shouldn?t mr and mrs malfoy be in the slytherinlist? draco states that
> all of of his family went to hogwarts sorted into that house, i
> book 1.
> jennifer, 16 (from sweden, sorry if my english isn?t that good)

Yet another foreigner with perfect English, apologizing for her English.
Every time I see that sort of thing, I'm ashamed all over again that I
speak only one language, the Language of Business and Government, and
never had to learn another.

Welcome, Jennifer! Enjoy Sweden, it's 75 degrees (Fahrenheit) in Texas
and humid. Ugh.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 25 18:04:19 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:04:19 -0800
Subject: A resource - Potions - Double Classes - Magic Quill
Message-ID: <3A994922.EA7224CE@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12979

On the Harry Potter Anonymous egroup, 'Joe Guy' just posted a long
message of extracts from JKR interviews. They cover many (alas, not all)
of the questions we are discussing here now.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotteranonymous/message/4034

Rebecca J. Bohner wrote:
> I don't think the classes have to be 3 or 4 hours long.  To teach
> a child the basics of Potion-making when you have seven years to
> do it in, a 2-hour class once a week would surely be sufficient.
> Side question:  does "Double Potions" mean "a class twice as long"
> or "two classes in a row", or does it mean "we're doubling up with
> another class"?

As far as I can tell, at Hogwarts, Double whatever means BOTH a class
twice as long and a class with two houses in it. I think the Potions
class has to be 3 or 4 hours longer because of the lab work,
specifically that it must be that some of the Potions they make in class
need to e.g. simmer over a low flame for 45 minutes (like cooking).
Therefore, there would be two class periods (for non-double classes) in
the AM and two more in the PM (each 1.5 or 2 hours). Has anyone made a
list of which classes are single and which double? 'Double Potions with
the Slytherins', 'Double Herbology with the Hufflepuffs', and I believe
in Double Astronomy with the Ravenclaws. IIRC Transfiguration and Charms
and History of Magic and Defense are just Gryffindors? In third year,
they get electives, but are there any other non-elective courses besides
the ones I've listed?

Naama asked about weekly versus daily classes.
SS says: "They had to study the night skies through their telescopes
every Wednesday at midnight and learn the names of different stars and
the movements of the planets. Three times a week they went out to the
greenhouses behind the castle to study Herbology, with a dumpy little
witch called Professor Sprout, where they learned how to take care of
all the strange plants and fungi, and found out what they were used
for."

Astronomy once a week, Herbology THREE times a week, which complicates
but does not destroy my nice schedule of once or twice a week. After
all, SS is first year and one of those three time slots could be given
over to electives once they get electives.

Electives: CoS says: "The second years were given something new to think
about during their Easter holidays. The time had come to choose their
subjects for
the third year, a matter that Hermione, at least, took very seriously.
"It could affect our whole future," she told Harry and Ron as they pored
over lists of new subjects, marking them with checks. "I just want to
give up Potions," said Harry. "We can't," said Ron gloomily. "We keep
all our old subjects, or I'd've ditched Defense Against the Dark Arts.""

She mentions Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Divination, Muggle Studies, and
Care of Magical Creatures. Have we heard of any other electives for
third and fourth years?

Jim Ferer wrote:
> The notion that many wizard kids aren't trained at Hogwarts
> seems intuitive, but it contradicts JKR.  She said in an interview
> that a magical quill writes down the names of magical children as
> they're born. Once a year Professor McGonagall takes the names
> of those turning eleven and sends the letters out.  There doesn't
> seem to be room for another system. OTOH, I have a hard time
> picturing Stan Shunpike as a Hogwarts student.

Maybe Stan is the source of Hufflepuff's bad reputation.<g>

I have already complained about that magic quill. It was probably just
fine 1000 years ago when Hogwarts was founded, and it probably still is
fine for the purebloods (whom I imagine as very rarely emigrating), but
it has a big problem for the Muggle-borns (and even half-and-half),
because of children who weren't born in Britain but their families
immigrated when they were very young. They weren't written in the Book
at birth because of being born aboard to foreign parents, but they are
British kids by the time they turn 11. Therefore, it would be better if
the quill wrote the list of addresses at the same time that McGonagall
writes the letters!







--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Sun Feb 25 18:19:30 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:19:30 -0000
Subject: to steve van der ark, Lexicon again
In-Reply-To: <3A993C99.2B037CA3@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97bibi+v7vq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12980

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> 
> > In the list of students at hogwarts, I notice you have put mr and 
mrs
> > weasley in the gryffindor house, but not Lily. But I?m sure ms 
Rowling
> > said that she where sorted into Gryffindor in an online chat? And
> > shouldn?t mr and mrs malfoy be in the slytherinlist? draco states 
that
> > all of of his family went to hogwarts sorted into that house, i
> > book 1.
> > jennifer, 16 (from sweden, sorry if my english isn?t that good)
> 
> Yet another foreigner with perfect English, apologizing for her 
English.
> Every time I see that sort of thing, I'm ashamed all over again 
that I
> speak only one language, the Language of Business and Government, 
and
> never had to learn another.
> 
> Welcome, Jennifer! Enjoy Sweden, it's 75 degrees (Fahrenheit) in 
Texas
> and humid. Ugh.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
>well,I myself is ashamed that I posted my message - when looking 
again at the list I see that Lily IS in the Gryffindor one *stupid*
But I keep hold of the part about the Malfoys - why not in the list..?
Jennifer (trying to enjoy Sweden whereas large heaps of snow blocks 
the front door and bodies of little children frozen to death when 
trying to play just as merrily as they are shown all the postcards 
fills the view)
:)

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 18:22:21 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:22:21 -0000
Subject: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
Message-ID: <97bigu+7q0p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12981

Hi,

I've just finished reading CoS and found an intriguing and 
wonderfully unimportant discrepancy (well, intriguing may be putting 
it too high.. but after the lemon drop-sherbet-boiled-sweet debate - 
which interested me! - I'm confident the obsessiveness level here is 
quite high enough to suck this candy dry too!)

Anyway, here it is:
On page 88 (British edition) of CoS Hagrid offers "a plate of treacle 
*fudge*". Then on the next page Harry can't talk because "Hagrid's 
treacle *toffee* has cemented his jaws together" and (p. 90) Hagrid 
offers Ron some treacle *toffee*, while on page 91 it says that Harry 
was hungry since he "only had one bit of treacle *fudge* since dawn." 
To complicate matters, on page 159 Harry receives "a large tin of 
treacle fudge, which Harry decided to soften by the fire before 
eating." 

Now, I've eaten fudge and I've eaten toffee and, a) they're 
different, and b) only toffee can make your teeth stick together. So, 
is there a deep, dark mystery here (for instance, have we discovered 
that Brits call toffee fudge?) or is it just a simple, uninteresting 
editorial mistake?

Naama 











From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Sun Feb 25 18:30:48 2001
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (Coleen)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:30:48 -0000
Subject: close up of Snape
Message-ID: <97bj0o+is7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12982

I don't know if it the picture or my computer but this closeup of 
Snape doesn't come out very clear. Maybe it will work for someone 
else.

http://members.spree.com/lady_marian/Photo_Gallery/Harry_Potter/Stone/
Snapeattable.jpg

I found this on the Alan Rickman newsletter.

      Tessie




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 18:52:12 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:52:12 -0000
Subject: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
In-Reply-To: <97bigu+7q0p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97bk8s+6egu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12983

Whew, Naama, we were running dry on the ol' lemon issue!  You saved us 
just in the nick.

And to add to the toffee/fudge query:

What is treacle anyway?  This is not a term we use in the US.  My 
Annotated Alice says it's molasses.  Is it *exactly* the same as what 
we call molasses (thick syrup that is produced during the process of 
refining cane sugar)?  Or some other kind of syrup?  I've been trying 
to picture treacle tart for some time now, without success.

And do people really make fudge OR toffee out of it, or is this an 
example of Hagrid's culinary inventiveness?

And while we're at it, what's spotted dick?  (I'm trying to imagine 
serving something with that name in a US school.  The students would 
die of the giggles.)

Mod Squad, is this off-topic?

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
Dudley thought for a moment.  It looked like hard work.
            --Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------

P.S.  If anyone knows how to make Windows 98 produce a screensaver 
that alternates between "wallpapers," e-mail me offlist!  My domain is 
hotmail.com.  I can save a still as wallpaper, but only one.  Drat.





From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Feb 25 18:56:18 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:56:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
References: <97bigu+7q0p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c09f5c$a9a45260$6c14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12984


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: naama_gat at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 12:22 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!


  Hi,

  I've just finished reading CoS and found an intriguing and 
  wonderfully unimportant discrepancy (well, intriguing may be putting 
  it too high.. but after the lemon drop-sherbet-boiled-sweet debate - 
  which interested me! - I'm confident the obsessiveness level here is 
  quite high enough to suck this candy dry too!)

  Anyway, here it is:
  On page 88 (British edition) of CoS Hagrid offers "a plate of treacle 
  *fudge*". Then on the next page Harry can't talk because "Hagrid's 
  treacle *toffee* has cemented his jaws together" and (p. 90) Hagrid 
  offers Ron some treacle *toffee*, while on page 91 it says that Harry 
  was hungry since he "only had one bit of treacle *fudge* since dawn." 
  To complicate matters, on page 159 Harry receives "a large tin of 
  treacle fudge, which Harry decided to soften by the fire before 
  eating." 

  Now, I've eaten fudge and I've eaten toffee and, a) they're 
  different, and b) only toffee can make your teeth stick together. So, 
  is there a deep, dark mystery here (for instance, have we discovered 
  that Brits call toffee fudge?) or is it just a simple, uninteresting 
  editorial mistake?

  Naama 
  In the US edition, it is "treacle fudge" in all of your quotes. What DO the Brits call it? treacle fudge or treacle toffee?
  Maybe the fact that it was made by Hagrid has something to do with it sticking their teeth together. He was not the greatest cook. :)

  I thought that treacle was a syrup ... not a fudge or a toffee. 
  Neil ... help!

  Doreen who is also not the greatest cook













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From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Sun Feb 25 19:02:09 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:02:09 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
References: <97bigu+7q0p@eGroups.com> <003a01c09f5c$a9a45260$6c14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <003801c09f5d$74cde780$ab2b07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12985

Well, my dictionary clearly states that treacle is Syrup or Molasses.

But has anyone ever tried to make toffee at home? You get a kind of sticky
syrup first, then put it in a form and when it gets colder it "dries" and
you get very sticky toffees, and there's really no way to control it. it
just *sticks*. So maybe it works because they were selfmade?

I automatically assumed that Toffee and Fudges wre the same things, but now
I'm really puzzled. Does this mean when you say "caramel", it's something
different again??? Because although you can taste the difference it just
falls under that name here. I never really considered those two things to be
different. Just like a drop is a drop, no matter what flavor it is.

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth Kbler-Ross




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Feb 25 19:21:33 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:21:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] close up of Snape ... other movie pics
References: <97bj0o+is7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005501c09f60$2aee21e0$6c14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 12986

I don't know if it the picture or my computer but this closeup of 
Snape doesn't come out very clear. Maybe it will work for someone 
else.

http://members.spree.com/lady_marian/Photo_Gallery/Harry_Potter/Stone/
Snapeattable.jpg

I found this on the Alan Rickman newsletter.

      Tessie

Tessie, it came out blurry for me too. I think it is just the picture, not your computer. 

While the subject is movie stills, does anyone have the url for the production pics showing the house on Privet Drive with Hedwig on the roof, etc? I had it but lost it. 
Thanks
Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 20:17:50 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:17:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
References: <97bk8s+6egu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010a01c09f68$084aaa20$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12987

Ok. a bit more even off subject, but this is mentioned in LW&W so it's not
too far off.

I always used to mix up Truffles, Treacle (Alice in Wonderland had that,
didn't it?), and Turkish Delight.

What exactly is the difference to the three?

Which of the three would be found in Hogsmeade's famous candy store?

Grins....

______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 12:52 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!


> Whew, Naama, we were running dry on the ol' lemon issue!  You saved us
> just in the nick.
>
> And to add to the toffee/fudge query:
>
> What is treacle anyway?  This is not a term we use in the US.  My
> Annotated Alice says it's molasses.  Is it *exactly* the same as what
> we call molasses (thick syrup that is produced during the process of
> refining cane sugar)?  Or some other kind of syrup?  I've been trying
> to picture treacle tart for some time now, without success.
>
> And do people really make fudge OR toffee out of it, or is this an
> example of Hagrid's culinary inventiveness?
>
> And while we're at it, what's spotted dick?  (I'm trying to imagine
> serving something with that name in a US school.  The students would
> die of the giggles.)
>
> Mod Squad, is this off-topic?
>
> Amy Z
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Dudley thought for a moment.  It looked like hard work.
>             --Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> P.S.  If anyone knows how to make Windows 98 produce a screensaver
> that alternates between "wallpapers," e-mail me offlist!  My domain is
> hotmail.com.  I can save a still as wallpaper, but only one.  Drat.
>
>
>
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups -- also, you can check out
our eGroups/YahooGroups merger pointers file at
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/+merger.txt
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>




From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Sun Feb 25 19:37:57 2001
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:37:57 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] close up of Snape ... other movie pics
Message-ID: <44.b982838.27cab915@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12988

In a message dated 2/25/01 2:22:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nera at rconnect.com writes:

<< 
 Tessie, it came out blurry for me too. I think it is just the picture, not 
your computer. 
 
 While the subject is movie stills, does anyone have the url for the 
production pics showing the house on Privet Drive with Hedwig on the roof, 
etc? I had it but lost it. 
 Thanks
 Doreen
  >>
This site has one picture of Privet Drive hopfully it is what you are looking 
for...

http://www.harry-potter-movies.net/images.php

          Tessie




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 25 19:37:56 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:37:56 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
References: <97bk8s+6egu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A995F14.994F5CAA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12989

Amy Z wrote:

> What is treacle anyway?  This is not a term we use in the US.  My
> Annotated Alice says it's molasses.  Is it *exactly* the same as what
> we call molasses (thick syrup that is produced during the process of
> refining cane sugar)?  Or some other kind of syrup?  I've been trying
> to picture treacle tart for some time now, without success.

I've gotten the impression that treacle is thicker than our molasses.
Picture cold molasses.

> And do people really make fudge OR toffee out of it, or is this an
> example of Hagrid's culinary inventiveness?

I would hope not; it tastes awful.

> And while we're at it, what's spotted dick?  (I'm trying to imagine
> serving something with that name in a US school.  The students would
> die of the giggles.)
>
> Mod Squad, is this off-topic?

I hope not, because I was going to ask this very thing. I was flipping
through my GoF last night, and came across the scene where Ron is trying
to entice the elf-indignant-Hermione to eat. Aha, found it (p. 183 US):

" 'Treacle tart, Hermione!' said Ron, deliberately wafting its smell
toward her. "Spotted dick, look! Chocolate gateau!' "

I have no idea what any of these are. Treacle tart has treacle in it and
so I probably wouldn't like it, and spotted dick, well, it sounds like
some sort of condition. A few lines later it says "When the puddings too
had been demolished..." so I assume most of these are in the pudding
category--but that doesn't help just a hell of a lot either, because in
Brit-land they call *hard* things pudding, not our Jello-type semiliquid
variety. Plum pudding could be downright dangerous at high velocities;
they make it with *batter,* which in the U.S. is only for cakes.

So clearly the Brits eat weird food and I was going to ask just what
exactly spotted dick is, and whether I should worry about you guys
overseas being exposed to it....

--Amanda, whose mom had to explain why Tom Thumb fell into the *batter*
when his mom was making *pudding*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 25 19:40:59 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:40:59 -0000
Subject: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
In-Reply-To: <010a01c09f68$084aaa20$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <97bn4b+gqjd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12990

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:

> I always used to mix up Truffles, Treacle (Alice in Wonderland had
> that, didn't it?), and Turkish Delight.
> What exactly is the difference to the three?
> Which of the three would be found in Hogsmeade's famous candy
> store?

I doubt any of them would be found in Honeyduke's, unless as a 
magical version.

I think there is a FAQ about Treacle and Treacle Tart (with 
recipes). A discussion between Lee, Barry, Tim, me, and four 
dictionaries found that some dictionaries share Tim's view that 
treacle is the general term, molasses only the darkest, black thick 
treacle, and golden syrup the lightest treacle, but other 
dictionaries agreed with the rest of us that molasses is the general 
term and treacle only the thickest blackest molasses. Recipes for 
treacle tart suggested that it resembles Shoo Fly Pie, or Pecan Pie 
without the Pecans.

The *real* Truffles are an expensive black fungus found on tree 
roots by scent-hunting dogs and pigs. My late stepmother once 
inflicted on us a Thanksgiving dinner with a goose with an oyster and 
truffle stuffing, and the truffles tasted bitter and moldy to me, not 
at all like delicious mushrooms. It is said that the reason that 
truffles are so attractive to pigs and humans is that they contain 
male pig sex pheromones...

That was teasing, I know you meant the candy. Candy truffles are 
some kind of very rich filling in a chocolate coating (perhaps 
sometimes a white chocolate coating?) and taste very good IF you 
can eat something so rich without INSTANTLY feeling your face break 
out. I actually prefer some less rich candies, such as See's 
butterscotch squares and bourdeaux.

Turkish Delight is a fruit semi-firm pate (put an accent acute on 
that last E) dusted with powdered sugar, resembling Aplets and 
Cotlets, if you're ever had Aplets and Cotlets. *Real* Turkish 
Delight (what was imported from Turkey before the Ottoman Empire 
fell) had something kind of powdered drug (can't remember if it was 
opium or hashish).





From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 25 19:41:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:41:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
References: <97bigu+7q0p@eGroups.com> <003a01c09f5c$a9a45260$6c14a3d1@doreen> <003801c09f5d$74cde780$ab2b07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A995FF0.9C883DA3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 12991

Dinah wrote:

> I automatically assumed that Toffee and Fudges wre the same things,
> but now I'm really puzzled. Does this mean when you say "caramel",
> it's something different again??? Because although you can taste the
> difference it just falls under that name here. I never really
> considered those two things to be different. Just like a drop is a
> drop, no matter what flavor it is.

Well, in my experience (and if you've seen me, it's clear I have a bit
of experience in the eating-candy department), toffee and caramel are
varieties of the same thing. Both are very chewy, and both are (I think)
milk-based. Taffy is another stretchy, chewy thing, but it's not
milk-based. Fudge is different; it's sort of a candy, but not chewy;
more of a meltaway thing. I used to make a killer chocolate fudge, back
when I had time to cook things.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Feb 25 19:49:35 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:49:35 -0000
Subject: Lily & James' hair color
In-Reply-To: <3A993681.C6FCEF95@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97bnkf+v9bb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12992

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Joanne Collins wrote:
> 
> > >> Joanne, who for some strange reason sees James Potter as having
> > dark blonde hair, even though Harry's is brown. Every one has 
their own mind's eye.
> >
> > True. I also see Lily's hair as brown, which could be where Harry 
gets it from, after all.
> 
> But Harry's hair is *black,* isn't it? Where are you getting brown?
> 
> --Amanda

James has black hair and Lily has red hair.  Says so in Chapter 12 of 
P/SS--The Mirror of Esired.

"She was a a very pretty woman.  She had dark red hair and her eyes--
*her eyes are just like mine,* Harry thought.."

"The tall, thin, black-haired man standing next to her put his arm 
around her.  He wore glasses and his hair was very untidy.  It stuck 
up at the back, just like Harrys did."

P.208 P/SS US ed.


Trina





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 25 19:53:58 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:53:58 -0000
Subject: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
In-Reply-To: <3A995F14.994F5CAA@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97bnsm+q209@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12993

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Amy Z wrote:
> > And while we're at it, what's spotted dick?  (I'm trying to
> > imagine serving something with that name in a US school.  The
> > students would die of the giggles.)
> > Mod Squad, is this off-topic?
> 
> I hope not, because I was going to ask this very thing.

Oh, stupid kitten forgot to answer. Some time ago I looked up 
Spotted Dick in a dictionary. It is a pudding that is boiled in 
a bag which is whitish with dark spots. The whitish is because it 
is made of suet and flour, the spots are raisins.
http://www.effingpot.com/




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 25 19:27:10 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:27:10 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
References: <97bk8s+6egu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002201c09f60$f3b6e3a0$b93670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 12994

Amy, Dinah, Doreen and Dee were musing about treacle, fudge and toffee like
a bunch of New Age Stepford Wives... oh, and Spotted Dick got a mention
again.

Neil thought: 'Heavens above!  Not treacle again...'   We discussed treacle
to death in the old Yahoo club, so there are about 20 messages on the
subject in the Archives, including some recipes, believe it or not.  Here's
one of mine that conveniently mentioned Spotted Dick as well:-

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives/message/5789

If you go the archives and run a search on the word "treacle" you'll get all
the other messages.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives

Fudge and toffee are different things and I suspect they are the same
different things in the UK and elsewhere.  Fudge often tastes like toffee
because it's made by boiling up sugar, butter and milk, whereas chewy toffee
is usually based on sugar and butter only.  Adding milk gives it the
fudge-like texture (I think we're agreed on the difference between these two
things).  It seems that JKR confused them, but I need to check my UK
editions.

Various things can be used to flavour fudge and toffee, treacle being one of
them (it would replace some of the sugar), so you can have treacle toffee
and treacle fudge as well as the regular kind.

Dee - Turkish Delight is made with gelatine, usually dusted with icing
sugar.  It's typically flavoured with rosewater and sometimes has nuts in it
(almonds I think).  Truffles (the sweet kind) are a sort of luxurious
chocolate paste balls coated in cocoa, chocolate powder or vermicelli.  I
can imagine Honeydukes having somehting like these, but under a different
name.

Every one of these things will rot your teeth and turn you all into
gap-toothed crones.  You have to pay for pleasure <g>

Hmmmm.  It's difficult to declare this thread completely off-topic, because
it concerns terms mentioned in the books.  However, if we get started on
recipes again, let's at least move that to OTChatter!  Perhaps one of the
other Mods will rap my knuckles for encouraging this thread ;-)

Neil

________________________________________

flying_ford_anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm





From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Feb 25 20:03:48 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:03:48 -0000
Subject: Wizard society/magical ability/Arthur's house/Widow
In-Reply-To: <97bc57+l6ej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97bof4+a0qb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12995

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> We may not be that far apart on number of students. I'm at 450-500, 
> which is half JKR's number, but I think 300 is way too low.
> 
> The notion that many wizard kids aren't trained at Hogwarts seems 
> intuitive, but it contradicts JKR.

I don't think it necessarily does. There's a big difference between 
Hogwarts and the other kinds of "schools" that we'd be describing. 
What exactly did JKR say? I don't have that written down anywhere.

  She said in an interview that a 
> magical quill writes down the names of magical children as they're 
> born. Once a year Professor McGonagall takes the names of those 
> turning eleven and sends the letters out.  There doesn't seem to be 
> room for another system. OTOH, I have a hard time picturing Stan 
> Shunpike as a Hogwarts student.  

See, and I can easily take this to mean those who have strong enough 
magical ability to qualify. I think a lot of the folks in the 
Wizarding World aren't anywhere near as magically capable and 
powerful as the students at Hogwarts. They're the regular people, who 
can do some magic but don't rely on it for more than day to day 
stuff. I imagine a continuum of inherent magical-ness, where the 
bottom of the list is the squibs, who rate a zero on the scale, and 
who still do have some small amount of magic (otherwise they'd be 
Muggles, not Squibs, and therefore Kwik-Spell does work for them), 
all the way up to the Dumbledores etc. who rate a ten. Normal folks 
on the street in Diagon Alley range anywhere in between, with 
probably more of them at the lower end of the scale. Maybe if you 
rate, say, a six or higher, your name is registered with the magical 
quill and then you go to school, meaning Hogwarts. If not, you might 
have any number of other training options, but not the official 
school.

> 
> BTW, has anyone ever tried to come up with a list/links page of all 
> the JKR interviews available on the Net?

I am working on this for the Lexicon. Doreen Rich is my invaluable 
assistant and she's going to try to track things down for me. I 
already have the Scholastic interviews linked. If anyone has a link 
to contribute, I'd love to hear it. Email either me or Doreen off 
list.

To Jennifer:

You are right, the Malfoys do belong in Slytherin. I'll add them 
today. And I suppose we don't know for absolutely sure that Arthur 
Weasley was Gryffindor. We know that after he and Molly got caught 
walking late at night she went back to Gryffindor tower, but we don't 
know exactly where Arthur ended up after Pringle was finished with 
him ("he still has the marks!"). Or do we? Anyone know of direct 
proof of Arthur's house?

re: Mrs. Rowley

I didn't catch the answer to the Widow of Kent question, apparently. 
(I tend to skim messages sometimes, when I get busy). Yes, I'd really 
like to put it in the Lexicon. Which message gives the answer? Who is 
Mrs. Rowley?

While we're on the subject of additions to the Lexicon, are there any 
artists out there who'd be interested in contributing small drawings 
for the Lexicon pages? I'd like things similar to the Mary Grandpre 
chapter illustrations. If so, email me off list.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
always editing, always adding, always an interesting browse
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Feb 25 20:09:19 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:09:19 -0000
Subject: Another candy debate cometh!/toffee
In-Reply-To: <003801c09f5d$74cde780$ab2b07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97bopf+f27m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12996

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dinah" <betty_belladonna at f...> wrote:
> But has anyone ever tried to make toffee at home? You get a kind of 
sticky syrup first, then put it in a form and when it gets colder 
it "dries" and you get very sticky toffees, and there's really no way 
to control it. it just *sticks*. So maybe it works because they were 
self made?
> 



My one claim to cooking fame is my homemade toffee, which I usually 
only make at the holidays.  It is simply 1 cup of sugar and 2 sticks 
of butter (not margarine, oleo, or any other fake stuff) and 2 
tablespoons of water.  I boil it in a teflon skillet until it turns a 
deep amber brown and then pour it onto a greased cookie sheet, 
sprinkle chocolate chips on it and spread the chocolate when it 
melts. After the chocolate dries, I break it into peices.

If I under-cook it, it's very soft and sticky (like a caramel, which 
makes sense since the butter & sugar "caramelize", but still 
delicious) and will stick to you teeth.  If I cook it just right, it 
will be hard and brittle, and it will still stick to the teeth, but 
not as much.  

Hoping I haven't gone completely OT!

Trina




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 17:34:49 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:34:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Images from the movie
Message-ID: <F11RMWuLn5U9T3TGJ2T000197b6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12997

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Wrote:
To muddy the waters a bit more. He is wearing a tie that seems to be
identical to the one that Hermione and the boys are wearing. I.e. gold and 
red - the Gryffindor colours. The crest on Hermione's robes is the same as 
the one on Harry's in the picture of him and Ron. Even there it is difficult 
to make out what exactly it is.
House colours:
Slytherin - Green and Silver
Ravenclaw - Blue and Bronze (?)
Hufflepuff - Yellow and Black

None of these are right for the tie on the person in question. We also
notice that the sorting hat picture shows Hermione with a black tie and no 
crest, suggesting that they are added later (magically after people have 
been sorted?).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, If you look at a larger picture, I am pretty sure his tie is a 
navy/black color.  The crest is clearly very different, but I am almost 
positive his tie is black.  Or at least a darker color than the crimson of 
Hermione's.

Stephanie
Who hopes that they DID put the slytherins in flying lessons, or else how 
can they put Harry on the Quiiditch team!


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From terrilg70 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 21:17:29 2001
From: terrilg70 at yahoo.com (terrilg70 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:17:29 -0000
Subject: collector stones
Message-ID: <97bsp9+f3u3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 12998

Does anybody know how many golden snitches were released in the 1 
series of the collectors stones?




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun Feb 25 21:24:20 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:24:20 -0800
Subject: Late in the topic but oh well
References: <F11RMWuLn5U9T3TGJ2T000197b6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c09f71$51ebc2a0$4a4e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 12999

Classes ARE weekly guys, go back, read the books and realize this.  You can even work out their schedule if you are so inclined.    But I have a new question...what do teachers do with all their time off?  If you only teach four classes as week (assuming you teach ever year for the house in one day which isn't that hard) what do you do at Hogwarts for the other three days....take really long bubble baths?

Saitaina
*****
-From: "The Dark Lord's Servant?"

Sirius was standing amid a gaggle of James's female cousins, sans shirt and flexing his muscles. The girls fawned over him, complimenting his hard pecs. Peter sighed when he saw this and immediately changed course, knowing that Sirius was likely to blast him from here to tomorrow for interrupting the drool fest. Peter wandered around groups of party goers, hands in his pockets, feeling more and more helpless as time moved on. Even the arrival of Remus didn't boost his spirits. Although his lover was concerned with his behavior, he was more interested in telling James and Sirius all about his latest adventure. Finally Peter pretty much lost it. As the other guests gathered around James, Lilly and Harry to open Harry's presents, Peter cleared his throat and yelled out. "I'm working for Lord Voldemort!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Sun Feb 25 21:31:42 2001
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (rhodhry at yahoo.no)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:31:42 -0000
Subject: Wizard society/magical ability/Arthur's house/Widow
In-Reply-To: <97bof4+a0qb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97btju+9e9d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13000

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
[snip]
> I don't think it necessarily does. There's a big difference between 
> Hogwarts and the other kinds of "schools" that we'd be describing. 
> What exactly did JKR say? I don't have that written down anywhere.
> 
> > She said in an interview that a magical quill writes down the 
> > names of magical children as they're born. Once a year Professor 
> > McGonagall takes the names of those turning eleven and sends the 
> > letters out.  There doesn't seem to be room for another system. 
> > OTOH, I have a hard time picturing Stan Shunpike as a Hogwarts 
> > student.  
> 
> See, and I can easily take this to mean those who have strong 
> enough magical ability to qualify. I think a lot of the folks in 
> the Wizarding World aren't anywhere near as magically capable and 
> powerful as the students at Hogwarts. They're the regular people, 
> who can do some magic but don't rely on it for more than day to day 
> stuff. I imagine a continuum of inherent magical-ness, where the 
> bottom of the list is the squibs, who rate a zero on the scale, and 
> who still do have some small amount of magic (otherwise they'd be 
> Muggles, not Squibs, and therefore Kwik-Spell does work for them), 
> all the way up to the Dumbledores etc. who rate a ten. Normal folks 
> on the street in Diagon Alley range anywhere in between, with 
> probably more of them at the lower end of the scale. Maybe if you 
> rate, say, a six or higher, your name is registered with the 
> magical quill and then you go to school, meaning Hogwarts. If not, 
> you might have any number of other training options, but not the 
> official school.
[snip]

But where does this leave the muggle-born/-raised students?  The 
continuum would be just as visible with muggleborn children with 
magical ability.  Going to Hogwarts school is very important to the 
muggleborn/raised - it is the only way they have to learn about 
living in the magical society.  The ministry cannot simply leave them 
to their own devices - they would have to send out officials to erase 
memories rather too often.  

There has been no mention in the books of preferential treatment of 
muggleborn/raised, as far as I can see, whcih there would have been 
if all muggleborn/raised children with magical ability were 
automatically shunted into Hogwarts, while those born/raised in a 
magical environment were not.  

Also, to be able to get an apprenticeship with a wand-maker or in 
similar trades, which I seem to perceive you are suggesting, would 
require a deeper level of connections than most muggleborn/raised 
children could hope to have (lest the ministry forced shops and 
businesses to take on so and so many apprentices each year).

Do we know that Stan Shunpike is not a squib?  The books seem to make 
the distinction that either you have magical ability and get to go to 
Hogwarts, or you are a squib (and very rare).  During CoS, Neville 
mentioned that *everyone know i am nearly a squib* (quoted from 
memory, following the attack on Justin, I think).  If there is a 
great scale down to squib of people who cannot get into Hogwarts, 
then he would not have said that.  

Also, separating a large quantity of people with magical ability from 
being able to go to Hogwarts seems to make Hogwarts some sort of 
elitist school, which does not resonate with Dumbledore's attitude to 
things in general.

On an OT note - there seem to be a lot of people trying to break into 
my computer tonight.  My firewall just keeps sounding the alarm.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Feb 25 22:11:22 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:11:22 -0800
Subject: OT: Winona Ryder (was: [HPforGrownups] Little Women)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010225204226.007c05d0@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010225140020.00a9f290@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13001

At 08:42 PM 2/25/01 +1100, Joanne Collins wrote:
>Slightly off track...speaking of awful (IMO) casting choices, I never
>understood the casting of Winona Ryder as Jo, but I'm not a fan of hers.

Well, I like Noni (I'm a sucker for those big eyes I guess), and think she
made a much better Jo than June Allison; but then I'm a Gen-X-er, and so
liking Noni is almost required by law.  :)

I think that film was pretty much Noni's brainchild and project, so it
follows she got the starring role. :)  Of course, no movie version of
_Little Women_ or _Little Men_ has done the originals justice.  I don't
think Louisa May Alcott is "Hollywood" enough for successful adpatation,
but then, what great writer is?  (Oh dear, I've just made a good argument
against expecting much from the Harry Potter movie, haven't I?)

The only movie adaptation of a children's book I've really liked is
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_, but then in that
case the original author wrote the screenplay!



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Feb 25 22:15:47 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:15:47 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] close up of Snape
In-Reply-To: <97bj0o+is7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010225141224.02b81f00@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13002

At 06:30 PM 2/25/01 +0000, Coleen wrote:
>I don't know if it the picture or my computer but this closeup of
>Snape doesn't come out very clear. Maybe it will work for someone
>else.
>
>http://members.spree.com/lady_marian/Photo_Gallery/Harry_Potter/Stone/
>Snapeattable.jpg

The JPEG is only 14K in size, so it seems to me likely that the image was
over-compressed, the Lockhart who scanned the image not realizing that JPEG
images lose quality the more compactly they're compressed.

                            -- Dave, the "Hermione" of computer graphics




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 22:12:17 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:12:17 -0000
Subject: Wizard society/magical ability/Arthur's house/Widow
In-Reply-To: <97btju+9e9d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97c001+109ja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13003

<Snipping lots of text relating to the quill submitting names based 
on their placement on the magical scale...>

Christian said:

> But where does this leave the muggle-born/-raised students?  The 
> continuum would be just as visible with muggleborn children with 
> magical ability.  Going to Hogwarts school is very important to the 
> muggleborn/raised - it is the only way they have to learn about 
> living in the magical society.  The ministry cannot simply leave 
them 
> to their own devices - they would have to send out officials to 
erase 
> memories rather too often.  

Here's my take of it.  Let's say we have a muggle-born child, who has 
*some* magical ability (let's say level 4 on Steve's scale).  Perhaps 
a 4 isn't enough to break through a "hard candy shell" of 
muggleness... you need something more powerful.  Chemists among us 
(my husband included) can consider this as a catalyst.  There are 
reactions that just *can't* take place unless you have enough of the 
catalyst.  So to become a wizard if you're a muggle-born, you HAVE to 
have enough magic in order to be considered for Hogwarts admission.  
Make sense?

<more snipping>

> 
> Also, separating a large quantity of people with magical ability 
from 
> being able to go to Hogwarts seems to make Hogwarts some sort of 
> elitist school, which does not resonate with Dumbledore's attitude 
to 
> things in general.
> 

Dumbledore isn't elitest in the sense that you have to either be (for 
example) a rich pureblood.  You just have to have a goodly amount of 
magical power to get in.  I mean, I can't see Harvard accepting 
someone with an "average" SAT score (standardized tests, for non 
US-ers), either.  I mean, even my alma mater (University of Arizona - 
a "state school") has a cut-off point for grades and such.  It's a 
matter of making sure that students will do reasonably well in their 
environments, and won't get so discouraged that they go out and shoot 
someone (or themselves).

It makes perfect sense to me that Hogwarts would only accept the 
cream of the crop, so to speak, and that the ones that didn't make 
the grade (a majority, I would think), though they may be 
disappointed, would just move on and make some other future plans.  
I mean, not every muggle out there among us would have been accepted 
to Cal Tech, or Oxford, or Yale, or Cambridge, right?

- Jen (who went to Harvard for a summer, and decided that she would 
never be able to handle being *that* stressed out full-time)




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 22:16:58 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:16:58 -0000
Subject: Wizard society/magical ability/Arthur's house/Widow
In-Reply-To: <97c001+109ja@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97c08q+43mi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13004

I ungrammatically stated previously:

> 
> Dumbledore isn't elitest in the sense that you have to either be 
(for 
> example) a rich pureblood.  

Oops.  Sorry.  Darn editing feature.  That should say "that you have 
to be (for example) a rich pureblood.  My original sentence stated: 
that you have to be either rich or a pureblood...

Jen (who is glad her English students aren't members...)





From rina at love-productions.com  Sun Feb 25 22:15:26 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:15:26 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard society/magical ability/Arthur's house/Widow
Message-ID: <003001c09f78$750c34c0$f0e487ac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 13005

Jennifer wrote:

<<It makes perfect sense to me that Hogwarts would only accept the 
cream of the crop, so to speak, and that the ones that didn't make 
the grade (a majority, I would think), though they may be 
disappointed, would just move on and make some other future plans.  
I mean, not every muggle out there among us would have been accepted 
to Cal Tech, or Oxford, or Yale, or Cambridge, right?>>

Well, but if we don't get accepted to Oxford or Yale, we have other choices! We can go to the state school, or tech school, or community college. Isn't Hogwarts the only magical school in Great Britain? JKR has also said that there isn't school before Hogwarts or after, so if they don't go to Hogwarts, they don't go to school? That's what is hard for me to reconcile. If Hogwarts is it, and only the best of the best go there, that leaves a hell of a lot of uneducated wizards running around. <g>

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Feb 25 22:46:26 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 15:46:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard society/magical ability
In-Reply-To: <97btju+9e9d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEKNDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13006

All this talk about education of the muggle-borns... it appears from remarks
by Hermione, when she is choosing her electives ("it could affect our whole
future") that she intends to remain living and working in the wizard world.
Seems to me that muggle-born/muggle-raised wizards & witches would have an
extra advantage returning to work in the muggle world... they would probably
be more successful if they use their powers (unobtrusively) to enhance their
working skills.  Of course, they would have to come up with fake records
from muggle high schools and universities.

I've always wondered how people like Hermione's parents handle the questions
about their daughter's education.  If Hermy was doing exceptionally well in
her elementary school, there would be expectations for her from other
relatives about her education and career.  Does she spend the rest of her
life lying to her old schoolfriends and her relatives?  And if she and all
the others tell the truth, it seems that there are SO many muggles with
wizardly relatives that word must leak out all over the place.


SML

===========================================
Millions long for immortality who do not
know what to do with themselves on a rainy
Sunday afternoon.
                            - Susan Ertz
===========================================




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Feb 25 22:42:01 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:42:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
References: <97bk8s+6egu@eGroups.com> <3A995F14.994F5CAA@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A998A39.F9AC502C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13007

Hi --

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Amy Z wrote:
>
> > What is treacle anyway?  This is not a term we use in the US.  My
> > Annotated Alice says it's molasses.  Is it *exactly* the same as
> what
> > we call molasses (thick syrup that is produced during the process of
>
> > refining cane sugar)?  Or some other kind of syrup?  I've been
> trying
> > to picture treacle tart for some time now, without success.
>
> I've gotten the impression that treacle is thicker than our molasses.
> Picture cold molasses.

It is actually what we would call "Blackstrap Molasses."  It is darker &
alot less sweet than the typical molasses.

> > And while we're at it, what's spotted dick?  (I'm trying to imagine
> > serving something with that name in a US school.  The students would
>
> > die of the giggles.)
> >
> > Mod Squad, is this off-topic?
>
> I hope not, because I was going to ask this very thing. I was flipping
>
> through my GoF last night, and came across the scene where Ron is
> trying
> to entice the elf-indignant-Hermione to eat. Aha, found it (p. 183
> US):
>
> " 'Treacle tart, Hermione!' said Ron, deliberately wafting its smell
> toward her. "Spotted dick, look! Chocolate gateau!' "
>
> I have no idea what any of these are. Treacle tart has treacle in it
> and
> so I probably wouldn't like it,

Actually, treacle tart (and treacle pudding) (Yes, Neil, we're back to
treacle again!) do NOT use *treacle* (what we call blackstrap
molasses).  They use golden syrup (which is sort of between light corn
syrup & dark corn syrup).  Unlike treacle (which is really quite
bitter), golden syrup is very sweet & quite good in these desserts.  I
made the mistake of making my first treacle pudding with treacle -- my
husband pronounced it inedible!  It wasn't truly horrible IMO, but it
was definitely not all that sweet.  Once, I made it with golden syrup,
*then* it was a hit!  Now, *why* they are called treacle tarts & treacle
puddings when they use golden syrup and not treacle ... well, maybe our
British friends can answer that.  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com  Sun Feb 25 22:56:32 2001
From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:56:32 -0600
Subject: House Badges in Broom Scene Photo
Message-ID: <20010225.165633.-198045.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13008


I have found what appears to be definitive proof that the Hogwarts
students wear their house crest on their robes:

http://www.harry-potter-movies.net/images/harryandhedwig.jpg

In this picture, Harry has a Gryffindor crest on his robe, so we should
therefore assume that all students have the crest of their house on their
robes. Plus, if you look closely at the broom scene photo, you can tell
that the student behind Hermione has a different shaped crest on his
robe, though you can't tell exactly what house it is from.

Sara
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Proud of my 104% Harry Potter Obsession Rating

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Feb 25 22:58:49 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:58:49 -0000
Subject: Amos Diggory / Stouffer 
In-Reply-To: <382722814.983019648437.JavaMail.root@web176-ec>
Message-ID: <97c2na+amkl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13009

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
>>Kelley wrote: 
>>Does anyone besides me think perhaps Mr. Diggory will go dark now 
that he's lost his much-loved son, and that overly-hyped (to him) 
Harry Potter was involved?< 
> 
> Catlady wrote: 
> >I don't think Amos would go dark for vengeance on Harry, but it 
occurred to me that he might be seduced to the Dark by promises of 
bringing his son back to life.< 
>
> Star wrote: 
> >I don't think Amos would go over to the dark side b/c it was the 
dark side that killed his son so he would want revenge on the dark 
side and not Harry, he understands that it wasn't Harry's fault.  As 
to Amos being seduced to the dark side by promises of his son's life 
returned Amos is smart enough to know that magic can't bring back the 
dead.< 
> 
ender wrote:
> This is very logical...and that's the problem.  The Diggorys have 
just lost there son, they're not exactly thinking logically.  They 
may not even be thinking at all.  It's easy for us to see the 
situation for what it is, but 1)Diggory wasn't there when his son was 
killed, so he doesn't know exactly what happened, and therefore might 
be prone to believing any lies about the incident that Voldie might 
tell him...and 2)Diggory is most likely going to be angry and look 
for someone to blame.  He may not be thinking clearly enough to blame 
the nameless, faceless Deatheaters, when little Harry Potter is so 
visible.<

Yes, this is along the same lines as I was thinking.  Amos is quite 
dismissive of Harry throughout GoF, and this may be just due to his 
pride of Cedric.  Whether that's all it is or not, his grief over the 
loss of his son is going to be immense.  I can easily see Voldy use 
Amos' grief, and I can see Amos seduced to the dark side with very 
little coaxing... 

_______________________
<Stouffer>
> Shanna wrote:
> I don't think that her books were, uh, run off at Kinko's, persay. 
I saw Stouffer on C-Span during the summer when this whole debacle 
began. I think she had a very small publisher. However, she admitted 
that sales of her book were limited to the US - EXCEPT (there's 
always an except) this one single book fair in London which sold her 
book. I find it highly unlikely that JKR just happened to be in 
London (when she lived in Edinborough - yes, I know they do travel 
back and forth quite a bit, but I'm sure she wasn't there
> constantly) to go to that stupid book fair and just happen to find 
her book and be oh so inspired by it. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I agree, the odds are pretty slim, but I could see JKR running across 
this woman's book.  As a writer, and given the material she had/has 
an interest in, I can imagine she would attend whatever book fairs, 
etc., there might be, and skim through these types of books.  I know 
I've spent entire days browsing in bookstores, and I'm only a reader, 
not a writer.  BTW, does it say somewhere on Stouffer's site that her 
book was available in London?  I couldn't find it.  But, again, not 
having read her books, and seeing some of the 'similarities' she has 
listed, I find her complaints totally incredulous.  'Boats carrying 
people across a lake, having to go through a curtain of ivy, secret 
entrance passageways, a castle on a cliff, giant wooden doors'... 
Stouffer really created all these images?  Wow, she's really 
impressive, isn't she?....  ::sigh::

> Shanna:
> I can't see it as being anything but crazy coincidence. I mean, if 
you were going to rip some one off, don't you think you'd be a little 
more subtle, rather than nearly copying every name and term you can 
find? <<<<<<<<

Right, exactly.  The names seem like such a small part of the 
similarities; it mainly consists of images.  And, I'm confused about 
this, too:  Are the 'Larry' and 'Lilly Potter' characters ~IN~ the 
Rah and Muggles book?  From the intro to her Rah book, it doesn't 
sound like they're all in the same work...

> Shanna:
> Furthermore, Stouffer really doesn't gain much credibility from me -
 you are absolutely right, she IS an opportunist. She even said she's 
filed lawsuits before over people knicking her ideas. (And lost 
everyone of them, apparently). You know, I'm sure all the children's 
writers in the world are scrambling to steal from her works of 
genius. <<<<<

Hahahah, good one.  I didn't know about her other lawsuits...

> Shanna:
> I think she is just doing this because, even if she doesn't win the 
suit, let's face it, millions of people know about her now then 
before, and maybe she'll end up selling more books. <<<<<<<<
 
So sad, isn't it?  I'll do a trelawney here and say that after she's 
lost her last suit/appeal, etc., against JKR she'll fade right back 
into obscurity...  Hope she doesn't learn Voldy's regenerative 
spell...

Kelley




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Feb 25 23:12:31 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:12:31 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] collector stones
References: <97bsp9+f3u3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002801c09f80$70aa1980$5914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13010



  Does anybody know how many golden snitches were released in the 1 
  series of the collectors stones?

  I don't know how many were released, only that they are rare. There is, however, a trading message board at:
  http://www.oldtowngifts.com/harry_board.htm

  You might be able to find out there .. or even find a golden snitch for sale or trade.
  Doreen who bought a box of stones just for kicks


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 01:54:39 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 01:54:39 -0000
Subject: close up of Snape
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010225141224.02b81f00@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <97cd0v+7ifr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13011

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 06:30 PM 2/25/01 +0000, Coleen wrote:
> >I don't know if it the picture or my computer but this closeup of
> >Snape doesn't come out very clear. Maybe it will work for someone
> >else.
> >
> 
>http://members.spree.com/lady_marian/Photo_Gallery/Harry_Potter/Stone
/
> >Snapeattable.jpg
> 
> The JPEG is only 14K in size, so it seems to me likely that the 
image was
> over-compressed, the Lockhart who scanned the image not realizing 
that JPEG
> images lose quality the more compactly they're compressed.
> 
>                             -- Dave, the "Hermione" of computer 
graphics

The pic is only 14K because it's a cropped and blown up bit of the 
pic that appeared briefly last week - the still from the movie of 
Hermione and the sorting hat. 

Heather M.




From editor at texas.net  Mon Feb 26 01:57:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:57:36 -0600
Subject: Golden Snitch stone
Message-ID: <3A99B810.E2091912@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13012

For whomever was after this--I just did a search on eBay for "Golden
Snitch" and there's at least six of the collector stones for sale, for
varying amounts.

--Amanda




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Feb 26 02:27:04 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:27:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Brand-New Wand (filk)
References: <982924096.448.54607.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c09f9b$9c4b4620$89c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13013

(Author's Note: At last! I've finally come up with a solo filk for
RonWeasley)

A Brand-New Wand (from CoS, Chap. 6)

(To the tune of I Want to Hold Your Hand)

Dedicated to Kimberly, FOW (Friend of the Weasleys)

(The Scene: Gryffindor Common Room. Enter RON WEASLEY, with a broken wand)

RON
When I borrowed my Dad's car I flew too far beyond
In crashing, my wand got shattered: I need a brand new wand!
This one will not respond! I need a brand new wand!

Getting Howlers from my mother's no way to correspond
So I'm afraid to tell her I need a brand-new wand
Please help your poor son Ron! I need a brand new wand!

It's held together now with crappy Spellotape
And when I wave it I'm in trouble with ol' Snape
That ol' Snape! Yellow Snape!

Can't change beetles into buttons, all I get is smoke
So please, tell my parents this is not a joke!
If I don't get a brand-new wand I will jump in a pond! I will jump in a
pond!

   - CMC





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb 26 03:52:21 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 03:52:21 -0000
Subject: Late in the topic but oh well
In-Reply-To: <004d01c09f71$51ebc2a0$4a4e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97cjtl+54cn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13014

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
> If you only teach four classes as week (assuming you teach every
> year for the house in one day which isn't that hard) what do you
> do at Hogwarts for the other three days....take really long bubble
> baths?

Teaching for seven hours straight sounds a lot harder than 
programming for seven hours straight -- and some classes, especially 
Potions, seem as if they would need more than one hour to do the lab 
work -- I'm not particularly confident that two hours would be enough 
for them to brew all those potions in class.

Supposing they did teach for four straight days, they would then 
correct papers for the other three days. I think that teachers, on 
average, spend as much time grading homework and exams as they do in 
class with students. Of course, a teacher who assigns a lot of essay 
questions takes more time marking them than does a teacher who assigns 
a lot of multiple choice questions, who in term takes more time 
marking than a teacher who rarely assigns any homework nor gives 
exams. McGonagall seems to assign a lot of essays as homework: I 
can't remember which book, but we see, one time after the bell rang 
for end of class, she kept the kids another 30 seconds to assign an 
essay, due next class, on how switching spells must be modified 
for use on living things, with examples. I fantasize that Snape is 
such a son of a bitch, I mean perfectionist, that he also assigns a 
lot of essay on Theory of Potions, history of famous potion 
makers, and so on.




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 04:13:10 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 04:13:10 -0000
Subject: Ginny Weasley-Weasley
In-Reply-To: <977ip4+pn4n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97cl4m+8165@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13015

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y (that would be 
me)...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Be... who would I like to be...  
> > (snip) Ginny, because I want to be a Weasley! (snip)
> > My inner child is stomping her foot and saying I should give being
> > Hermione a shot, because she (my inner child) wants to marry a
> > Weasley someday, and she sure can't do that if she's Ginny, but
> > she's just going to have to live with it.
> 


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:


> I suspect that Ginny CAN marry a Weasley. No, not one of her 
> brothers. In SS, Draco said "Think my name's funny, do you? No need 
> to ask who you are. My father told me all the Weasleys have red 
hair, 
> freckles, and more children than they can afford."
> 
<snip>
>In some USA states it is illegal for 
> first cousins to marry and in others it is legal.
> 
> If Arthur's father's father's had another son (Arthur's uncle) who 
> had a son (Arthur's first cousin), who had a son (Ginny's second 
> cousing), that would be a Weasley she could marry even if first 
> cousin marriage is illegal.

Rita,

Thanks for the thought.  I've consulted with my inner child, though, 
and she (having grown up with second, third and even fourth cousins 
considered fairly close members of the family), said 'eeewwww!' and 
decided being a Weasley will be good enough, and that she doesn't 
have to marry one.

Thanks anyway!
kimberly







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 26 04:42:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 04:42:01 -0000
Subject: Late in the topic but oh well
In-Reply-To: <004d01c09f71$51ebc2a0$4a4e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97cmqp+dg0c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13016

Saitaina wrote:

> Classes ARE weekly guys, go back, read the books and realize this.  
You can even work out their schedule if you are so inclined.    But I 
have a new question...what do teachers do with all their time off?  If 
you only teach four classes as week (assuming you teach ever year for 
the house in one day which isn't that hard) what do you do at Hogwarts 
for the other three days....take really long bubble baths?

Some classes appear to meet once a week, some two or three.  The kids 
definitely don't have 7 classes per day.  They seem to have at most 
two before and two after lunch, plus Astronomy at night (one hopes 
they don't have a first-thing-in-the-morning class the next day).

Even if the teachers did fit 7 classes into a day, four days 
that each go from the beginning of breakfast to the end of dinner 
sounds like a full week's work to me.  Most of us get 2 days off per 
week, reasonable if you work 8-hour days; 3 days off would be the fair 
arrangement if you work 10-hour days the way the Hogwarts teachers 
appear to.  Then there's not only planning and grading to do, but for 
at least some of the teachers (maybe just Heads of House?), various 
kinds of dorm duty and administration.  I think that extra day off has 
been filled up a few times over.  Not too much time left for bubble 
baths with Myrtle...not that that would be very relaxing.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
"I'm *not* going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
"That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
                      -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------------




From Allyse at my-deja.com  Mon Feb 26 05:01:47 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:01:47 -0000
Subject: Wizard society/magical ability/Arthur's house/Widow
In-Reply-To: <97bof4+a0qb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97cnvr+49g0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13017

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:

> re: Mrs. Rowley
> 
> I didn't catch the answer to the Widow of Kent question, 
apparently. 
> (I tend to skim messages sometimes, when I get busy). Yes, I'd 
really 
> like to put it in the Lexicon. Which message gives the answer? Who 
is 
> Mrs. Rowley?

I asked about Nick's mention at his Deathday party of the "Wailing 
Widow of Kent" who had come all the way to attend. Jim Flanagan, wise 
fellow, did a web search and came up with a book published 
anonymously in 1788, titled "The Widow of Kent, or The History of 
Mrs. Rowley." I did a web search of my own after that, and I was 
frankly astonished to see how many times "widow" and "kent" and 
even "rowley" show up on the same page (mostly geanology ones)! So I 
think Jim's find is the best bet. :)

Allyse

http://www.english.upenn.edu/~dwhite/pascoe2.htm




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 26 05:34:57 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:34:57 -0000
Subject: Fry versions on the web?
In-Reply-To: <0ctf9t0alpvskbqpitdspu1mdr2kj47qtg@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <97cpu1+ppck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13018

Monika wrote:

> There are a few samples at the Cover to Cover website (the company 
who
> publishes the british versions of the audio books:
> http://www.covertocover.co.uk
> 

Thanks so much!  I just listened to one bit and I really liked it.  I 
should tell the local bookstore that rents tapes to get them.

I borrowed the Random House GoF from them (Jim Dale) and a few 
seconds were blank on one of the tapes, as if the tape were twisted, 
except that I checked and it wasn't.  When I returned it I told the 
guy at the counter, and he said, "Yeah, they're not very good quality-
-they're really not made to last."  Now, we're talking commercial 
usage here.  I have no idea how many times that tape has been played--
probably dozens--nor whether he was talking about that company, or 
books on tape in general.  But be warned, possible purchasers.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning 
down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?"
   "Aaaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical
whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign
that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry. . . ."
                              --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire 
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Feb 26 05:54:04 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:54:04 -0000
Subject: Wizard society/magical ability/Arthur's house/Widow
In-Reply-To: <003001c09f78$750c34c0$f0e487ac@shelley>
Message-ID: <97cr1s+g3qo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13019

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rina Stewart" <rina at l...> wrote:

> Well, but if we don't get accepted to Oxford or Yale, we have other 
choices! We can go to the state school, or tech school, or community 
college. Isn't Hogwarts the only magical school in Great Britain? JKR 
has also said that there isn't school before Hogwarts or after, so if 
they don't go to Hogwarts, they don't go to school? That's what is 
hard for me to reconcile. If Hogwarts is it, and only the best of the 
best go there, that leaves a hell of a lot of uneducated wizards 
running around.

Uneducated? Maybe in Muggle terms. But what constitutes uneducated in 
the Wizarding World? They don't need the level of science and tech 
training we find essential with our Muggle world/life view. They 
don't need the level of math, certainly. Much of our educational 
system is designed to prepare us to operate in our science-based 
Muggle society with its specific world and life view built in. The 
Wizarding World has an entirely different way of operating. You don't 
need all that stuff to function in the Wizarding World. You need 
basic skills in reading and writing and math and so on, then you need 
basic magic training so you understand the nuances of magic: it's key 
components (inate magical "power" and intention) and the methods of 
directing that power and intention toward specific goals (wands, 
words, and actions). You might also want to understand the basics of 
potions, but generally speaking you won't need higher level 
understanding because you don't have the higher level magical ability 
to use it anyway. You then move into a trade of some kind and are 
taught whatever magic is needed to do that trade (the "tricks of the 
trade," I suppose). And that would be pretty much all you'd need in 
the kind of society we see. Basic level magic spells will take care 
of most of what years of schooling do for Muggles. 

Of course, Wizard Folk would really have a hard time functioning in 
Muggle society, wouldn't they? They wouldn't understand the basic 
underlying world and life view. And in fact, this is exactly what we 
see in the books. Wizard Folk can't begin to understand how Muggle 
society operates without magic. They could probably be trained to 
think like a Muggle, but then might they not find themselves doubting 
that magic can work, since it isn't scientific or logical, and as a 
result might magic STOP working for them?

And, then, would that explain why all of us REAL Muggles can't cast a 
simply "Lumos" spell, no matter how hard we try? We just don't 
believe. So Muggle-born kids with magical power might never develop 
much of that power at all as they grow up; they would even lose it 
our Muggle schools educate the magic out of them. And might that be 
why advanced education of the kind we think is so important might 
actually be HARMFUL to a Wizard child? It would disrupt the 
philosophical underopinnings of Wizard society and turn them into 
(shudder) Muggles?

I think that would suggest a more urgent reason for separation of the 
two societies and possibly explain some of the prejudice some in the 
Wizarding community feel toward Muggles. Muggles are a real threat to 
Wizard culture, and not because they might burn someone at the stake 
or force them NOT to read fantasy books in school...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl  Sat Feb 24 11:47:13 2001
From: monika.zaboklicka at csl.com.pl (Monika Zaboklicka)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:47:13 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups]: the Stouffer stuff/reserving words
References: <974pdh+qkcf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c09fc9$c62db120$0800a8c0@Serwer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13020


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> My  question is: Hasn't anyone noticed that Rowling isn't using "muggles"
> as a trademark? She is using it as a WORD, like turnip or green. I
> have never heard of anyone reserving a word for their exclusive use.

The only example I've heard of is the word "hobbit". If you want to write
about hobbits, you have to use one of the synonims - "Perian", for instance.

But if Mrs. Stouffer seriously thinks that her works are matching the
artistic level of Tolkien's, IMHO lawyers are not the kind of specialists
she needs most.

Monika
(The Snape fasn)




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Feb 26 08:06:49 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:06:49 -0000
Subject: numbers again
Message-ID: <97d2qp+45in@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13021

I enjoyed Amys analysis of the # of teachers at Hogwarts so much that 
I just thought I would add another log onto the fire of that great 
nitpick of numbers in which we try to figure out just exactly how 
many students there are at Hogwarts.  I agree that there are far few 
teachers at Hogwarts for 1000 students, or probably even for 300 
students if the students are taught in groups of 10 or 20.  And think 
of all those papers they would have to grade!  My high school had 
about 1000 students and there were about 100 employees including the 
teachers and all the other staff people.  (Of course they could have 
fired half of them and it wouldnt have been a problem but thats 
another story.)

Here is my contribution to this great debate:

The books clearly state that there is one table per house in the 
Great Hall.  If there are 1000 students at Hogwarts, then there are 
250 students in each House.  That means that each table has to be big 
enough to seat 250 people at a time.  (We know they dont eat in 
shifts because there are many occasions where the whole school is 
celebrating in the Great Hall.)  Dining tables are generally about 1 
1 1/2 to 2 feet long for every 2 people that can sit at the table 
opposite to one another. Even if there were benches instead of chairs 
and you really squeezed people in there would have to be at least 1 
foot per person on either side of the table.  That means that a table 
that could fit 250 people would have to be at least 124 feet long -- 
124 people on either side and 2 at the ends, and they would be very 
crowded, so a big enough table is probably more like 200 feet long.  
124 feet long (or about 41 meters) is very long, and of course 200 
feet, or about 65 meters, is REALLY long.  I know the Great Hall is 
big enough to fit the Dursleys whole house in it, but 4 bedroom 
suburban houses are about 60 feet long.  

Think about the length of those tables, for example, an (American) 
football field is 100 yards, or 300 feet long.  In baseball, the 
distance from home plate to first base is 90 feet.  I think the 
tables would have to be ridiculously long, and therefore I agree with 
the original estimate of about 10 students per class per year for a 
total of about 300 students.  That way the tables only have to be big 
enough for 70 students, hence about 40 feet long -- a much more 
manageable size.

--Joywitch




From jferer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 08:07:10 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:07:10 -0000
Subject: Untrained magical talent
In-Reply-To: <003001c09f78$750c34c0$f0e487ac@shelley>
Message-ID: <97d2re+t9t1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13022

Rina:"Isn't Hogwarts the only magical school in Great Britain? JKR 
has also said that there isn't school before Hogwarts or after, so if 
they don't go to Hogwarts, they don't go to school? That's what is 
hard for me to reconcile. If Hogwarts is it, and only the best of the 
best go there, that leaves a hell of a lot of uneducated wizards 
running around."

Exactly, and that doesn't make sense for wizard society either. I 
would say it's downright dangerous as well. How about having a talent 
as potentially potent as magic that is wild and untrained? Talk about 
letting kids play with the power tools without any training!





From jferer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 08:19:49 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:19:49 -0000
Subject: numbers again
In-Reply-To: <97d2qp+45in@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97d3j5+7ma6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13023

Joywitch:"> 124 feet long (or about 41 meters) is very long, and of 
course 200 feet, or about 65 meters, is REALLY long.  I know the 
Great Hall is big enough to fit the Dursleys whole house in it, but 4 
bedroom suburban houses are about 60 feet long.  

Think about the length of those tables, for example, an (American) 
football field is 100 yards, or 300 feet long.  In baseball, the 
distance from home plate to first base is 90 feet.  I think the 
tables would have to be ridiculously long, and therefore I agree with 
the original estimate of about 10 students per class per year for a 
total of about 300 students.  That way the tables only have to be big 
enough for 70 students, hence about 40 feet long -- a much more 
manageable size."

There's seating for 1200 at the Yule Ball (JKR states that cold), so 
there's room for that and dancing too; the room is there. (Three 
outside guests for each student at the Ball, and the Ball doesn't 
include the youngest students? Highly doubtful).

They are humongous tables (tables laid end-to-end, no doubt), no 
question.





From jferer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 08:41:17 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:41:17 -0000
Subject: Keeping up appearances [Reply SML]
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEKNDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <97d4rd+k9ak@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13024

Sister Mary Lunatic:"All this talk about education of the muggle-
borns... it appears from remarks by Hermione, when she is choosing 
her electives ("it could affect our whole  future") that she intends 
to remain living and working in the wizard world."

"I've always wondered how people like Hermione's parents handle the 
questions about their daughter's education.  If Hermy was doing 
exceptionally well in her elementary school, there would be 
expectations for her from other relatives about her education and 
career.  Does she spend the rest of her life lying to her old 
schoolfriends and her relatives?  And if she and all the others tell 
the truth, it seems that there are SO many muggles with wizardly 
relatives that word must leak out all over the place."

To me this is a huge question. How do the muggle-borns handle it? 
Talk about living a lie! Russian spies have it easier.  Like spies, 
muggle-born wizards need a "legend" to explain themselves in the non-
magical world, and I can visualize one of the larger Ministry of 
Magic departments [is there any end to them?] devoted to this. Not 
everbody might approve of the story they're provided "What do you 
mean, I dropped out of school and lived in a commune for seven years, 
and now I make beads to sell on the street?"

Speaking of that, how did they persuade Hermione's parents to let her 
go in the first place? 

"Did you see the post, dear? Hermione's been accepted at a school for 
witchcraft!" 

"Oh, jolly good, dear! I suppose she'll have to go live in this, 
what's the word, coven? Well, we'll just have to let her nip off to 
the store to get the supplies on this list."




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Sun Feb 25 10:43:01 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:43:01 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re Marauders' Map/Diary
Message-ID: <01C0A031.4DBF53C0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 13025

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Snuffles MacGoo <msmacgoo at o...> wrote:

> Does any one else see the similarity between the map and Tom
> Riddle's diary in terms of its ability to think for itself,
> without apparent brain?

Rita said: Harry did -- when the twins show him how to work the map, "But even
as he stood there, flooded with excitement, something Harry had once
heard Mr. Weasley say came floating out of his memory. Never trust
anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps
its brain."

Hah! Harry got there first. I thought I was *so* clever, well that's blown that 
idea (shut up down the back!) Also the mirror at the Leaky Cauldron talks, 
without apparent brain. (the marvelous quote about him not being murdered in 
POA, The Leaky Cauldron 'that's the spirit dear')

storm




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Mon Feb 26 10:15:02 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:15:02 EST
Subject: Book 5 - Publishing Date
Message-ID: <11.1049229a.27cb86a6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13026

Hi All

Latest news regarding Book 5 is not good for us fans.

This year, we have the joy (if that's the right word!) of the movie.   Don't 
expect Book 5 until 2002, as Jo has been busy with the movie this year.

But not all is sad news... not long now until the two short books are 
released for Comic Relief - so at least we will have something to read.

Nick



From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Feb 26 13:05:18 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:05:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Late in the topic but oh well
References: <97cjtl+54cn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001001c09ff4$c565e5c0$f2eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 13027


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rita Winston 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 10:52 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Late in the topic but oh well


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
  > If you only teach four classes as week (assuming you teach every
  > year for the house in one day which isn't that hard) what do you
  > do at Hogwarts for the other three days....take really long bubble
  > baths?


  Oh, I wish teaching were so simple that anyone could whip off seven classes a day with ease.  Unfortunately, those of us who are teachers know that it's not.  For one thing, the Hogwarts faculty would not teach for 7 hours straight (not unless they wanted to die young of stress induced heart problems).  There would have to be breaks, at least one lunch hour and most likely a dinner hour.  Add onto that planning time.  Now, if a teacher is going to teach the same thing to each class at the same level (i.e. all of the first years follow the same lesson plan), then tthat teacher would need seven preps per week.  However, if you're a teacher, you know that classes do not always obediently follow the syllabus.  One set of first years might stay on track while another set goes off because of a problem area (Neville just can't seem to get the theory of the wart potion right!), while yet another set zooms ahead, learning everything quite quickly.  Suddenly, your seven preps a week has multiplied.  Just to give you an idea of how much time that means, many teachers spend almost as much time preparing a class as they do teaching it.
  I'm not that good at math, but it seems that if you consider all of this, then the average hogwarts teacher could spend up ten hours (including breaks) just teaching each day.  On top of that, he or she could spend several more hours preparing for the next day's class.  
  All I can say is, Hogwarts better have a good benefits plan to attract professors to that kind of back-breaking schedule.  I imagine  that they would definitely need quite a bubbly bath by the time the weekend comes.

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Feb 26 13:43:29 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:43:29 -0600
Subject: numbers again
References: <97d3j5+7ma6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9A5D81.6B119FEF@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13028

Hi --

I've been enjoying this debate again, though not contributing.  I've
just been patiently moving the relevant messages to my Hogwarts FAQ
folder, hoping the topic will die down soon so I can tackle that last
FAQ.  <g>  Anyway ...

Jim Ferer wrote:

> There's seating for 1200 at the Yule Ball (JKR states that cold),

Actually, someone (sorry I can't remember who) made the very good point
that we're getting Harry's POV of how many tables there are & how many
people they seat.  He could just be overwhelmed when he makes this
observation (or just inaccurate).  What GoF says in any case is: "there
were *about* a hundred smaller, lantern-lit ones, each seating *about* a
dozen people" (emphasis mine).  This doesn't seem highly definitive to
me, and I do believe that we're forced to take Harry's POV on this at
face-value.  But, he's nervous about needing to dance, and overwhelmed
by the changes in the Great Hall for this big event.  And, further, we
have no way of knowing if there were empty seats everywhere or not, do
we?  I can't remember if it was ever stated that every seat in the Great
Hall was taken or something along those lines.

As you can tell, I agree with Joywitch & the others in the "280-300
students" camp.  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Mon Feb 26 14:08:17 2001
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (rhodhry at yahoo.no)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:08:17 -0000
Subject: OT: Change of email-address
Message-ID: <97do0h+npn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13029

Due to problems with this email-address (specifically that each time 
I want to log on, I first have to turn the computer off and then on 
again), I am switching to prince_galrion at yahoo.no as my address for 
this group.  




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Feb 26 09:21:31 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:21:31 EST5EDT
Subject: Sorting Hat picture
Message-ID: <5F02E922B4@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13030

I said earlier that I was disappointed that Maggie Smith's sleeve 
was blocking our view of Alan.  When I got home Friday night and 
looked at the picture a bit closer I did notice the turban on the one 
guy's head and thought "Ah-HA!  THERE'S Alan."  
Hhhmmmm....I'm liking the long hair. :-)

So, my bad.

Wow...I'm glad I downloaded the pictures when I did.  I can't seem 
to find them online now.  Did they get removed?

And if this has been addressed already...sorry.  I only have internet 
access here at work so I'm rather out of the loop on the weekends.

OK...off to read the multitude of posts....I just love Monday 
mornings.  :-)

Rachel Bray

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Feb 26 14:57:06 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:57:06 -0000
Subject: numbers again
In-Reply-To: <3A9A5D81.6B119FEF@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97dqs2+i20t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13031


> 
> Actually, someone (sorry I can't remember who) made the very good 
point
> that we're getting Harry's POV of how many tables there are & how 
many
> people they seat. 

That would be me. (basking in the fact that the listmom said I 
made "a very good point," and she's a lawyer too, and knows a good 
point when she sees one)

I have been reading lately with an eye out for all the exaggerations 
in the books and it's really amazing how many times we're told things 
which are simply not true. JKR paints the entire story in 
intentionally larger-than-life terms, all of which contributes to the 
sense of wonder and other-worldliness in the books. Here are a couple 
off the top of my head:

the number of turkeys at Christmas dinner
(a hundred! too many for the number of kids who stay behind at 
Christmas, no matter how many students there are!)
the number of second Snape's robes are on fire before he notices
(thirty! That's a LONG time to be on fire, and Harry would have been 
thrown off his broom by then if you read the sequence through 
carefully - !)

There are plenty of other examples, more than enough to allow us to 
discount statements like 1200 seats at the Yule Ball and 200 
Slytherin supporters in the stands, especially given the emotional 
state of Harry when he sees these things.

OTOH, the arguments that there simply HAVE to be more than 300 
students for the stands at the Quidditch matches to even remotely 
look full is a very strong one, and one which can't be explained away 
as exaggeration on Harry's part.

However, I'm still solidly in the 300-500 student pool.

(splash splash)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Feb 26 15:26:01 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:26:01 -0000
Subject: Phoenix
Message-ID: <97dsi9+jit7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13032

Was reading through various fairy tales, doing research for a new 
chapter, and came across a Hans Christian Anderson story about the 
Phoenix - wanted to share it with y'all...


N the Garden of Paradise, beneath the Tree of Knowledge, bloomed a 
rose bush. Here, in the first rose, a bird was born. His flight was 
like the flashing of light, his plumage was beauteous, and his song 
ravishing. But when Eve plucked the fruit of the tree of knowledge of 
good and evil, when she and Adam were driven from Paradise, there 
fell from the flaming sword of the cherub a spark into the nest of 
the bird, which blazed up forthwith. The bird perished in the flames; 
but from the red egg in the nest there fluttered aloft a new one?the 
one solitary Phoenix bird. The fable tells that he dwells in Arabia, 
and that every hundred years, he burns himself to death in his nest; 
but each time a new Phoenix, the only one in the world, rises up from 
the red egg.
    The bird flutters round us, swift as light, beauteous in color, 
charming in song. When a mother sits by her infant's cradle, he 
stands on the pillow, and, with his wings, forms a glory around the 
infant's head. He flies through the chamber of content, and brings 
sunshine into it, and the violets on the humble table smell doubly 
sweet.
    But the Phoenix is not the bird of Arabia alone. He wings his way 
in the glimmer of the Northern Lights over the plains of Lapland, and 
hops among the yellow flowers in the short Greenland summer. Beneath 
the copper mountains of Fablun, and England's coal mines, he flies, 
in the shape of a dusty moth, over the hymnbook that rests on the 
knees of the pious miner. On a lotus leaf he floats down the sacred 
waters of the Ganges, and the eye of the Hindoo maid gleams bright 
when she beholds him.
    The Phoenix bird, dost thou not know him? The Bird of Paradise, 
the holy swan of song! On the car of Thespis he sat in the guise of a 
chattering raven, and flapped his black wings, smeared with the lees 
of wine; over the sounding harp of Iceland swept the swan's red beak; 
on Shakspeare's shoulder he sat in the guise of Odin's raven, and 
whispered in the poet's ear "Immortality!" and at the minstrels' 
feast he fluttered through the halls of the Wartburg.
    The Phoenix bird, dost thou not know him? He sang to thee the 
Marseillaise, and thou kissedst the pen that fell from his wing; he 
came in the radiance of Paradise, and perchance thou didst turn away 
from him towards the sparrow who sat with tinsel on his wings.
    The Bird of Paradise?renewed each century?born in flame, ending 
in flame! Thy picture, in a golden frame, hangs in the halls of the 
rich, but thou thyself often fliest around, lonely and disregarded, a 
myth?"The Phoenix of Arabia."
    In Paradise, when thou wert born in the first rose, beneath the 
Tree of Knowledge, thou receivedst a kiss, and thy right name was 
given thee?thy name, Poetry.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 15:48:16 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:48:16 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups]: the Stouffer stuff/reserving words
In-Reply-To: <000101c09fc9$c62db120$0800a8c0@Serwer>
Message-ID: <97dts0+b4mv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13033

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Zaboklicka" 
<monika.zaboklicka at c...> wrote:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> > My  question is: Hasn't anyone noticed that Rowling isn't using 
"muggles"
> > as a trademark? She is using it as a WORD, like turnip or green. I
> > have never heard of anyone reserving a word for their exclusive 
use.
> 
> The only example I've heard of is the word "hobbit". If you want to 
write
> about hobbits, you have to use one of the synonims - "Perian", for 
instance.
> 
> But if Mrs. Stouffer seriously thinks that her works are matching 
the
> artistic level of Tolkien's, IMHO lawyers are not the kind of 
specialists
> she needs most.

Hobbit though is infact an invented word-- it did not exist before 
Tolkien.

Muggle is in the OED and has a long history. It is a real word, not 
invented by either author.

So.... why should Rowling use a word that is in the dictionary?




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Feb 26 10:51:15 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:51:15 EST5EDT
Subject: candy debate
Message-ID: <60814F7F41@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13034

Turkish Delight has orange juice in it.  That's about all I know about 
that one.  I found the recipe on a CS Lewis site the other week 
when looking up info on the Narnia Chronicles.
Rachel Bray

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 26 15:51:35 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:51:35 -0000
Subject: numbers again
In-Reply-To: <97dqs2+i20t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97du27+i9n9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13035

Steve wrote:
> 
> I have been reading lately with an eye out for all the exaggerations 
> in the books and it's really amazing how many times we're told 
things 
> which are simply not true. JKR paints the entire story in 
> intentionally larger-than-life terms, all of which contributes to 
the 
> sense of wonder and other-worldliness in the books. Here are a 
couple 
> off the top of my head:
> 
> the number of turkeys at Christmas dinner
> (a hundred! too many for the number of kids who stay behind at 
> Christmas, no matter how many students there are!)
> the number of second Snape's robes are on fire before he notices
> (thirty! That's a LONG time to be on fire, and Harry would have been 
> thrown off his broom by then if you read the sequence through 
> carefully - !)

I'm in the smaller-student-population pool too (dons bathing suit, 
dives in with glee) and I agree completely that we shouldn't take many 
of these numbers too literally, including the 30 seconds Snape's robe 
is on fire.  I don't follow you on the broom problem, though.  IIRC, 
Hermione knocks into Quirrell on the way to set Snape's robe on fire, 
so the curse is broken at the beginning of the 30 seconds, isn't it?

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------------
"And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
"Aaah, I was going to have a fight.  Okay, I'll lose a bet."
"Yeah, you'll be betting I'll win my fight. . . ."
                               --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------------------




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Mon Feb 26 15:50:09 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:50:09 -0500
Subject: OT: To Sara
References: <983159546.2903.23340.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c0a00b$cc96e760$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13036

<snip>
Sara
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Proud of my 104% Harry Potter Obsession Rating
<un-snip>

Sara, where did you get your obsession rating?  Is it *official*?  I want an
obsession rating! ::pouts::

Becca

------
"If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you have tried."
-----




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Mon Feb 26 15:39:20 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 02:39:20 +1100
Subject: Casting and re: Fry versions on the web?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010227023920.007bd7c0@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 13037

>BTW, in searching unsuccessfully for audio, I found pics of him--I'd 
>never seen him in anything--and he doesn't fit my view of Lupin, 
>Ender, but I nominate him for Sirius.  Maybe it's just the Oscar Wilde 
>connection (unjust imprisonment), but I can really picture it.

If Fry were to play Sirius would there be any chance of putting in Jude Law
as Lupin? I think they're close enough in age to be contemporaries, and I
love the idea of Jude as a werewolf. The actors also had a great chemistry
in Wilde.

And speaking of casting, are there enough red-headed English actors to
populate the Weasley family?

I did have one suggestion, from the Hornblower movies again, Simon
Sherlock, who plays Oldroyd in Hornblower, is quite young, good-looking
without being overly pretty, and he'd be good as either Charlie or Bill,
one of the older boys.

Joanne.

--

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversefic

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joanne_c

"You know you're famous when people start saying you're gay." Hunt Block.
"I gotta go see about a girl," Good Will Hunting
Official Commodus Concubine #1
Haakon's mistress
Founder of the Coalition For A Towel-Free Buck (CFTFB)
Founder of the Coalition For A Shirt-Free Chris (CFSFC)
Official Ray Vecchio Buttermilk Purveyor
Spike's Personal Happy Meal #6
Official LitD Brendan Slut #4
Half of the Dazed & Confused Duo with Margret
Jordan's godmother.




From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Feb 26 16:44:30 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:44:30 -0500
Subject: Magical Theory
References: <20010226.094607.-173911.0.ehsmith1@juno.com>
Message-ID: <044301c0a013$67b96540$9c39acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13038

Hedwig wrote:

> Of course you realize the only way to deal with this question
> scientifically is to sit down and make a list of all the spells, charms,
> potions, and curses -- don't forget curses -- used or mentioned in the
> books, and draw conclusions.  Love to help you with it, but I'm a little
> too busy right now.  :-)

That's all right, because there's already such a list on the "Harry Potter
Lexicon" at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ .

After looking through the list, I've come to the conclusion that spells are
a blanket term which refers to any and all kinds of magic deliberately
performed by wizards using wands.  Charms, transfigurations, jinxes, hexes,
and curses are therefore simply sub-categories of spells, classified by
effect and/or intent.  Does that sound sensible?
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com

(crossposting from DiagonAlley back to HPforGrownups and SnapeFans for
further comments)




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Feb 26 16:54:20 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:54:20 -0000
Subject: the letters from....
Message-ID: <97e1ns+103vn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13039

Warner Brothers, in this case...

They've got the picture of Harry & the dursleys in a hailstorm of 
letters at 
http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/article.jsp?
id=Exclusive+Letter+Photo - I feel confident in saying that this is 
one picture which will be staying up there for a while.
But remember - you can use the picture as your computer's desktop 
background, pursuant to the WB site's terms & conditions ("Any 
authorization to copy Material granted by WB Online in any part of 
this Site for any reason is restricted to making a single copy for 
non-commercial, personal, entertainment use on a single computer 
only, and is subject to your keeping intact all copyright and other 
proprietary notices.") but you can't use the picture on any other web 
site or networked computer environment.





From john at walton.to  Mon Feb 26 17:07:15 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:07:15 +0000
Subject: ADMIN: Signatures
Message-ID: <B6C03DC3.CA95%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 13040

::walks to the front of the class, holding Rock, and claps hands::

ATTENTION PLEASE! The Moderators would like to remind you of the
widely-accepted internet guidelines for internet signature lines (i.e. the
quips, links, epigrams etc. that are found at the bottom of people's
messages).

Signatures should be NO MORE THAN 6-8 LINES in total, excluding separator
lines (the _________ or +-+-+-+-+ or ======== separating signatures from
main text), which should each be no more than one line. We've recently noted
some with more than 15 lines. This is a no-no and we're going to start
sending out Howlers unless certain witches and wizards pull their socks up.
::menacing brandish of Rock::

The reason behind this is that YahooGroups adds a few lines onto each
message, and the Moderators have added a few lines of quick links to remind
people of particular useful things (like the VFAQ). Added to very long
signature files, that can make over 20 lines of non-message: longer indeed
than some messages!

Thank you for your attention, and remember, "A Posting Day Is A Happy Day!"

--John, Moderator With Rock #47
________________________________________________

John "Diet Coke Addict" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47

=| The Moderators say: "Do you want a better career? Sure, we all do. So
read the Very FAQ and Make More Money!"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
________________________________________________






From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Feb 26 12:17:19 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:17:19 EST5EDT
Subject: Ha ha ha...comment on Hermione
Message-ID: <61F13847EA@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13041

I just e-mailed a friend of mine the wallpaper I made of all the Harry 
pictures.  She wrote back that this Hermione looks like a girl who 
plays tag and climbs trees and could grow up to be a supermodel, 
not a little study nut with bushy hair and big teeth.  :-)
Rachel Bray

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Feb 26 17:18:07 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:18:07 -0000
Subject: Rejoice, for another candy debate cometh!
In-Reply-To: <97bigu+7q0p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97e34f+qqm0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13042

Treacle is molasses. Golden Syrup is sort of like Dark Karo Syrup.

Fudge (the real stuff) is made by boiling sugar and water to the "soft 
ball" stage (meaning that the syrup will from a soft ball when dropped 
into ice water), at which point chopped chocolate or peanut butter is 
added to the syrup. Fudge is rather soft, but firm and shouldn't be 
too sticky. There's also the "fake" fudge made with sweetened 
condensed milk and totally skips the sugar syrup stage and losses some 
caramel flavor.

Toffee is made from a sugar syrup boiled to a firmer stage.

Turkish Delight, as someone said is sort of like Aplets. They're 
flavored with lemon or rosewater and sometimes have finely chopped 
pistachios in them.

Spotted Dick is basically a bread and butter pudding with raisins or 
currants.

:-)Milz




From john at walton.to  Mon Feb 26 17:19:38 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:19:38 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Keeping up appearances [Reply SML]
In-Reply-To: <97d4rd+k9ak@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6C040AA.CA9B%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 13043

LOL, as soon as I saw the title, Mrs Bucket popped into my mind...

Jim Ferer quoth:

> To me this is a huge question. How do the muggle-borns handle it?
> Talk about living a lie! Russian spies have it easier.  Like spies,
> muggle-born wizards need a "legend" to explain themselves in the non-
> magical world, and I can visualize one of the larger Ministry of
> Magic departments [is there any end to them?] devoted to this. Not
> everbody might approve of the story they're provided "What do you
> mean, I dropped out of school and lived in a commune for seven years,
> and now I make beads to sell on the street?"

I'm sure that there's a huge deception campaign going on -- an entire
apparatus devoted to making Hogwarts into some nice boarding school in
Scotland.

> Speaking of that, how did they persuade Hermione's parents to let her
> go in the first place?
> 
> "Did you see the post, dear? Hermione's been accepted at a school for
> witchcraft!" 
> 
> "Oh, jolly good, dear! I suppose she'll have to go live in this,
> what's the word, coven? Well, we'll just have to let her nip off to
> the store to get the supplies on this list."

Gee, guess who doesn't watch Buffy. Doncha know that parents never weird out
when they find out their child is a Slayer/witch/wizard/demon? </smartarse>

--John

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Feb 26 17:21:03 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:21:03 -0000
Subject: ADMIN:  private messages
Message-ID: <97e39v+7psu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13044

OK, so I am not a moderator and should not be posting an ADMIN 
message.  So sue me.  I am, however, an aged, worn veteran of the 
HP4GUps trenches, which I feel gives me the right to claim privledges 
which are not, technically, mine.

Which brings me to my point:  I you have something to say to one 
particular member of the group, DO NOT post your message.  If you 
click on the members name you can send email directly to them.  To 
THAT MEMBER, as opposed to the WHOLE group.

Thank you very much for listening to the rantings of this crazy old 
witch.  I will go back and stir my cauldron quietly now.

--Joywitch, still overwhelmed by the number of daily posts




From JVilter at mac.com  Mon Feb 26 17:33:31 2001
From: JVilter at mac.com (Jocelyn Vilter)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:33:31 -0800
Subject: fry version on the web?
In-Reply-To: <983180464.499.38255.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6BFD36A.90D1%jvilter@mac.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13045

Leaping in here, for the first time.  I've been reading along for several
weeks, trying to stay current, and just caught up on 18 digests over the
weekend!  Anyway, I just wanted to say that we own all 4 books on tape with
Jim Dale and love them a lot.  They've been listened to over and over and
over, and finally one of the tapes died a horrible death in a cheap tape
player.  I called Listening Library to inquire about buying a replacement
tape.  The man who answered the phone took my name and address information,
and told me there would be no charge for the replacement.  Inside of two
weeks we had a brand new *set* of tapes - a whole new copy of PoA!  I've
often said, I wished we had a way to clock the mileage we'd put on the
tapes, as they've been listened to so often, and I can't fault the customer
service one bit.  

lurking...
jocelyn 

> From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Date: 26 Feb 2001 09:41:04 -0000
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 608
> 
> When I returned it I told the
> guy at the counter, and he said, "Yeah, they're not very good quality-
> -they're really not made to last."  Now, we're talking commercial
> usage here.  I have no idea how many times that tape has been played--
> probably dozens--nor whether he was talking about that company, or
> books on tape in general.  But be warned, possible purchasers.




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Feb 26 18:21:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:21:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] candy debate
References: <60814F7F41@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <001501c0a020$fd3e73a0$3f14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13046


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rachel Bray 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 4:51 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] candy debate


  Turkish Delight has orange juice in it.  That's about all I know about 
  that one.  I found the recipe on a CS Lewis site the other week 
  when looking up info on the Narnia Chronicles.
  Rachel Bray

  Turkish Delight was originally made from dates, honey, roses and jasmine then bound together by Gum Arabic.  It was used to sweeten the breath after a meal to take away the bitter taste of coffee. Today it remains a sweet of hospitality and is still greatly enjoyed as a delightful treat anytime. Since 1984, Bayco Confectionery has used the traditional Turkish recipe, using the finest ingredients and natural fruit flavours.
  Ingredients:
  Bayco Confectionery produces quality hand made specialty confectioneries as well as other fine sweets. We use only the finest ingredients of pure sugar and natural fruit flavours in the production of our confections. One of the popular specialty products is natural Turkish Delight filled with fresh roasted Pistachio nuts. Additional nut based lines include Almond,Hazelnut and Walnuts. Our products are available in many different quantities, packages and flavours including Rose, Raspberry, Creme de Menthe, Lemon, Blueberry, Orange, Apple, Vanilla, Plain, Banana, Mastic, Bergamot, Coconut, Pineapple and Chocolate. Assorted Bulk packages include at least six of the above flavours. To see the complete product list, please choose from the link on the left and be sure to check out our gift packages as well. Send something sweet to someone sweet right from our website! 
  Ingredients for fruit flavoured Turkish Delight: Sugar, corn starch, natural flavours, cream of tartar, natural/artificial colours.
  Ingredients for Rose flavoured Turkish Delight: Sugar, corn starch, artificial Rose flavour, cream of tartar, natural/artificial colours.
  Ingredients for Turkish Delight with nuts:Sugar, Nuts (Pistachio, Almond, Hazelnut or Walnut), corn starch, vanilla, cream of tartar.
  Ingredients for Sadrazam (Pistachio Turkish Delight with Coconut):Sugar, Pistachio Nuts,corn starch, coconuts, vanilla, cream of tartar. 

  I don't know if this is helpful or not. 
  Doreen New-Age Stepford Wife #3


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Mon Feb 26 18:22:03 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:22:03 -0500
Subject: Wizard lifespan/ Wizard population
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC06F6@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13047

I've another thought that's been niggling me for a while. It concerns the
effect of the longer wizard lifespans on the population.
 
Anyone care to venture opinions as to this? 
 
It seems to me that if there are, as someone postulated, two dozen Weasleys
running around of various generations, and a lot of other branches of
wizarding families, this would add to the overall population and therefore
the economy. After all, if wizards live to an average age of 135, say (going
on the evidence that Dumbledore is 150 but looks 70's and McGonagall is 70
but JKR says that is "middle-aged" for a witch), it's more than possible to
have 4 or more generations of each family living at the same time.
 
We tend to base our population estimates on the fact that most people over
70 are not part of the working economy. Obviously that's not the case,
unless wizards are particularly prone to contracting strange diseases and
dying young.
 
I guess what I'm getting at in my inept way is that, taking two or more
"extra" generations into account, the wizard population could easily be
higher than we've been discussing it here.
 
Thoughts?
 
Gwendolyn Grace



From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Mon Feb 26 18:56:42 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:56:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]sorrow
Message-ID: <20010226185642.51CE336F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13048

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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Mon Feb 26 19:33:17 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:33:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] number of teachers-Ravenclaw
Message-ID: <20010226193317.34DFB36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13049

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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Mon Feb 26 19:39:31 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:39:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Just wondering
Message-ID: <20010226193931.5445236F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13050

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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Mon Feb 26 20:11:07 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:11:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard society/magical ability/Arthur's house/Widow
Message-ID: <20010226201107.6258036EE@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13051

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From jferer at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 21:15:44 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:15:44 -0000
Subject: numbers again
In-Reply-To: <3A9A5D81.6B119FEF@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97eh20+fcce@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13052

Penny:"Actually, someone (sorry I can't remember who) made the very 
good point that we're getting Harry's POV of how many tables there 
are & how many people they seat.  He could just be overwhelmed when 
he makes this observation (or just inaccurate).  What GoF says in any 
case is: "there were *about* a hundred smaller, lantern-lit ones, 
each seating *about* a dozen people"

That's very convenient. It allows any undesirable evidence to be 
discounted.  It's perfectly possible to tell the difference between 
something Harry is seeing and may be wrong about (Example:[Cedric] 
was just a useless pretty boy...) and something the omniscient 
narrator is telling us.  I can't see any colorable argument around 
seating for 1200 at the Yule Ball.

We are closer to one another than we are to JKR, but I cannot be 
convinced there are less students at Hogwarts than there are at Roger 
Sherman Elementary. That creates problems there are no solutions for. 
Actually, that's even true about the 450-500 number I favor.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Feb 26 21:37:45 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:37:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: numbers again
References: <97eh20+fcce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9ACCA9.665941BB@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13053

Hi --

Jim Ferer wrote:

> Penny:"Actually, someone (sorry I can't remember who) made the very
> good point that we're getting Harry's POV of how many tables there
> are & how many people they seat.  He could just be overwhelmed when
> he makes this observation (or just inaccurate).  What GoF says in any
> case is: "there were *about* a hundred smaller, lantern-lit ones,
> each seating *about* a dozen people"
>
> That's very convenient. It allows any undesirable evidence to be
> discounted.  It's perfectly possible to tell the difference between
> something Harry is seeing and may be wrong about (Example:[Cedric]
> was just a useless pretty boy...) and something the omniscient
> narrator is telling us.  I can't see any colorable argument around
> seating for 1200 at the Yule Ball.

But, Jim -- below is your original point:

> > There's seating for 1200 at the Yule Ball (JKR states that cold),
>
I don't think it's "cold" (i.e. indisputable) when the omniscient
narrator is using words like "about."  My main point is that "about" 100
tables, each seating "about" a dozen people is not absolutely 100%
seating for 1200 people.  The "about" language suggests to me that it
really is intended to be Harry's perspective on viewing the Great Hall
rather than a clear-cut "this is how it is" fact conveyed by an
omniscient narrator.  If it were the latter, why would the narrator not
say: "The long tables in the Great Hall were replaced by 100 tables,
each seating a dozen people"?  Why would you qualify the number of
tables & number of seats at each table if you intended to convey
completely factual information?  I can't explain the qualifying "about"
other than to say that it must be intended to be an imprecise estimate
based on Harry's POV.  But, maybe you have a different view of why the
author would use "about" in 2 places in one sentence?

I also think that (a) we have no idea if all the seats were taken, and
(b) we also don't know whether any of the seats were occupied by people
other than current students, visiting students from BeauxBatons &
Durmstrang and staff members.  Were there alumni other than the MoM
representatives in attendance?  We don't know.  Maybe there were tons of
empty seats.  On the other hand, maybe JKR just didn't mention that lots
of prominent witches & wizards in the UK attended the Ball as alumni,
etc.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 26 21:55:19 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:55:19 -0000
Subject: numbers again
In-Reply-To: <97eh20+fcce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97ejc7+o94f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13054

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> Penny:"Actually, someone (sorry I can't remember who) made the very 
> good point that we're getting Harry's POV of how many tables there 
> are & how many people they seat.  He could just be overwhelmed when 
> he makes this observation (or just inaccurate).  What GoF says in 
any 
> case is: "there were *about* a hundred smaller, lantern-lit ones, 
> each seating *about* a dozen people"
> 
> That's very convenient. It allows any undesirable evidence to be 
> discounted.  It's perfectly possible to tell the difference between 
> something Harry is seeing and may be wrong about (Example:[Cedric] 
> was just a useless pretty boy...) and something the omniscient 
> narrator is telling us.  I can't see any colorable argument around 
> seating for 1200 at the Yule Ball.
> 

I was trying to think of a nice, polite way to make the same 
argument, Jim. Thanks for doing it for me!

I have another point to make regarding the number of students. 
JKR has said quite specifically that there are 1000 students in 
Hogwarts. Now, obviously that doesn't sit well with (or rather is 
flatly contradicted by) evidence in the books. BUT - I can't believe 
that JKR, who has spent years planning and thinking of the HP world, 
and who is at least as intelligent as most of us here, hadn't thought 
of this very basic problem. Its not a reasonable slip up, IMO.
So, as I see it, its a problem with no solution right now. I 
shouldn't be surprised if JKR will address this discrepancy in the 
next book, and solve it somehow. Haven't a clue how it will be done, 
so its another thing to wait for!

Naama






From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 26 22:21:02 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:21:02 -0000
Subject: numbers again
In-Reply-To: <3A9ACCA9.665941BB@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97ekse+d3s4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13055

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> But, Jim -- below is your original point:
> 
> > > There's seating for 1200 at the Yule Ball (JKR states that 
cold),
> >
> I don't think it's "cold" (i.e. indisputable) when the omniscient
> narrator is using words like "about."  My main point is that 
"about" 100
> tables, each seating "about" a dozen people is not absolutely 100%
> seating for 1200 people.  The "about" language suggests to me that 
it
> really is intended to be Harry's perspective on viewing the Great 
Hall
> rather than a clear-cut "this is how it is" fact conveyed by an
> omniscient narrator.  If it were the latter, why would the narrator 
not
> say: "The long tables in the Great Hall were replaced by 100 
tables,
> each seating a dozen people"?  Why would you qualify the number of
> tables & number of seats at each table if you intended to convey
> completely factual information?  I can't explain the qualifying 
"about"
> other than to say that it must be intended to be an imprecise 
estimate
> based on Harry's POV.  But, maybe you have a different view of why 
the
> author would use "about" in 2 places in one sentence?
> 

I've just read the sentence in question, and I must say it does not 
seem as though its said from Harry's POV. To me it reads like a 
simple statement of fact, albeit imprecise. But what is the problem 
with imprecision in this context? The reader does not need to know 
whether there are a 100, 102 or 97 tables. So "about 100" is quite 
adequete here. As to the second 'about' ("seating about a dozen"), 
the same argument can hold for it too. However, it may have a 
slightly meaning - it may mean that there are actually different 
numbers of people sitting at the tables (ten at one table, thirteen 
at another and so on).


> I also think that (a) we have no idea if all the seats were taken, 
and
> (b) we also don't know whether any of the seats were occupied by 
people
> other than current students, visiting students from BeauxBatons &
> Durmstrang and staff members.  Were there alumni other than the MoM
> representatives in attendance?  We don't know.  Maybe there were 
tons of
> empty seats.  On the other hand, maybe JKR just didn't mention that 
lots
> of prominent witches & wizards in the UK attended the Ball as 
alumni,
> etc.
 
There is a slight hint that besides the guests at the top table and 
the staff at the staff tables all the rest are studnets:
"When all the food had been consumed, Dumbledore stood up and asked 
the students to do the same."
Hmm... not conclusive, but it doesn't seem as thought a large part of 
the audience weren't students. IMO, at least.

Naama




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Feb 26 22:03:09 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:03:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: numbers again
References: <97ejc7+o94f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9AD29D.14718411@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13056

Hi --

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> I have another point to make regarding the number of students.
> JKR has said quite specifically that there are 1000 students in
> Hogwarts. Now, obviously that doesn't sit well with (or rather is
> flatly contradicted by) evidence in the books. BUT - I can't believe
> that JKR, who has spent years planning and thinking of the HP world,
> and who is at least as intelligent as most of us here, hadn't thought
> of this very basic problem. Its not a reasonable slip up, IMO.

But, neither is the wand order mistake a reasonable slip-up, but from
all accounts, that's exactly what it was.  A mistake.  A huge one.  But,
one that was made by the author & missed by every editor who looked at
the manuscript before it went to press at both Bloomsbury & Scholastic.
So, I don't think it makes too much sense to assume that JKR is
infallible & has every detail completely worked out.  If she did, then
there wouldn't be the flatly contradictory evidence about the number of
students.

I personally think the number of students response was an off-the-cuff
remark that she didn't think through.  Or, maybe she thinks there should
be 1000 students at Hogwarts, but she hadn't focused on that when
writing some of the scenes that contradict this in each book.  Either
way -- I'll also be interested to see if and how she addresses this
issue in a later book.  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Tue Feb 27 00:36:07 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:36:07 -0400
Subject: The Ballad of Professor Trelawney (a filk)
Message-ID: <3A9AF676.238A5EB2@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 13057

Humbly bowing before the Master, Caius Marcus, I present a filk:

The Ballad of Professor Trelawney
 
{To the tune of:  (I Can't Help) Falling in Love With You}

The scene: Sybil Trelawney strums a guitar, surrounded by a heavily
scented gauzy mist. She gazes dreamily into the mists and begins to
croon:

Most students say
There is no Eye
But future days, I can clearly See

Hermione says
This is all a crock
Poor, "blind" girl, she can't really See

People come and go
The universe unfolds
I can See it all
Everything, the future holds

That poor lad
With the lightning scar,
I can See, his future tragedy

He will die
In pain, for sure
His awful death, I can clearly See

(Professor Trelawney suddenly goes rigid. Her mouth forms into a sexy
sneer, and she speaks in a masculine, Southern drawl, "Thankya, thankya
very much")

Angela "Back after two weeks with a dead modem" Boyko



From kris403 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 02:17:39 2001
From: kris403 at yahoo.com (kris403 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 02:17:39 -0000
Subject: Late in the topic but oh well, teaching
In-Reply-To: <001001c09ff4$c565e5c0$f2eb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <97f2o3+ggfq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13058

Hi, I'm new, so sorry if this is really late or been discussed.

Ender wrote in about planning times for the teachers.  Planning is a pain.  I am a teacher, and the difficult lesson plans take a lot of time to prepare.  Not to mention gathering up all the things you need.  It probably wasn't easy for Lupin to find all his wonderful creatures, or Snape to organize exactly how to teach the students to mix a potion without blowing it up.  Not only do you have to plan for the lesson itself, but exactly how you are going to go through each step to avoid discipline problems.  My students are bad enough, I couldn't imagine if they had wands.  The teachers are also required to do additional duties... detention, be the head of their house, organize additional events.   They are also required to be somewhat of an adoptive parent.  There are probably loads of social problems that we are never aware of.  I am also pretty sure that there are more teachers at Hogwarts than what we know about now.  It wasn't until the 3rd book that we met Trelawney.

Kris






From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Feb 27 02:19:26 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:19:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Question for shippers
Message-ID: <20010227021926.9AFA5274C@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13059

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From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Feb 27 02:27:08 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:27:08 -0600
Subject: teaching staff marital status & only children
Message-ID: <00bc01c0a064$cc16e480$3f14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13060

I was wondering about the fact that all of the teaching staff of Hogwarts are all single, apparently childless. 

Also, aren't most of the wizard families mentioned so far on the small side of only one or two children? There seem to be a lot of "only child" characters in the books.

Doreen, wondering if groups like ours give JKR gray hairs

"Shan't say nothing if you don't say, please," said Peeves in his annoying singsong voice. 
"All right --- please."
"NOTHING! Ha ha! Haaaaaa!"
Peeves the Poltergeist, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 04:16:15 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:16:15 -0600
Subject: Rereads SS question about pre-destination
References: <97d2qp+45in@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c0a074$08057600$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13061

Quote:  SS/PS (From American version, sorry folks)
Pg. 260,  ch 15, The Forbidden Forest, (at the end of the chapter)
<<"....Bane thinks Firenze should have let Voldemort kill me...I suppose
that's written in the stars as well."
" Will you stop saying the name!" Ron hissed.
"So all I've got to wait for now is Snape to steal the Stone," Harry went on
ferishly, "then Voldemort will be able to come and finish me off....Well, I
suppose Bane'll be happy.">>

After doing my reread, I came across this comment, and it really bugged me.
What if it's written in the stars that Harry WILL be killed by Voldemort?
The way the chapter is slanted (this read, at least), I got that idea from
it.

Any ideas?

(I too think the centaurs are a. Nuts, or b.Know ALOT more than they're
telling and will be revealed in future books...)

hree more generalized questions...

1.  If Snape knew something was up with Quirrel, why didn't HE report it to
AD?  I know AD would have listened!

2.  Why was Snape so peeved that Gryf won the match he was referring in the
few seconds time it took Harry to catch the snitch?  (*looks for the quote)

"Well done," said Dumbledore quietly, so that only Harry could hear.  "Nice
to see you haven't been brooding about that mirror...been keeping
busy....excellent..."
Snape spat bitterly on the ground.

What WAS Snapes' problem?  Did he want the glory from revealing Quirrel
again, and Harry's quick catch tripped him up?  Was he that upset that Gryf
won, making a closer point-race with Slyth and Gryf?  (I can't reall y see
the latter.)

3.  Why didn't Hermoine and Ron take the scar more seriously since it hurt
that day on the lake when Voldemort was on his way to get the stone?  We had
a glimpse o f the pain the scar caused when Voldemort and Harry met in the
forest.  They even stated, while the twins played with the squid (ch. 16)
that he should go to Madame P.
(in my book, page 264)
______________________________________________
 

~~Dee~~
:)

We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure.
There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with
our eyes open.

-Jawaharlal Nehru
Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
http://www.icq.com

For those who love to cook:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cakesandale
______________________________________________
 





From margdean at erols.com  Tue Feb 27 03:40:25 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:40:25 -0500
Subject: Centaurs
References: <97d2qp+45in@eGroups.com> <00b501c0a074$08057600$b7e2fea9@computer>
Message-ID: <3A9B21A9.F1D4642@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13062

Denise R wrote:

> (I too think the centaurs are a. Nuts, or b.Know ALOT more than they're
> telling and will be revealed in future books...)

Why couldn't both be true?  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 26 18:37:21 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael oren)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:37:21 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] candy debate
References: <60814F7F41@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <OE28llNY30kkZIhTrBo0000d0f1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13063

Rachel wrote: "Turkish Delight has orange juice in it.  That's about all I know about 
that one.  I found the recipe on a CS Lewis site the other week 
when looking up info on the Narnia Chronicles."

Not accurate. Turkish delight, in the base form, is merely powdered sugar, water, gelatine (or cornstarch flour) and almonds. All right, you can do without the almonds, but it's not the same thing. :)

To that base, you usually add colouring powder, any fruit juice, ground lemon peel or vanilla essence. And almonds. Or pistachios. You usually roll it in ground coconut or sugar powder.

Very sweet. Comes in a variety of firmness from soft marshmallow (rare and as sticky as wet marshmallow) to large jelly-bear-like substance (more common, almost doesn't stick). The colour is usually white with green spots (the pistachios) but very often pink. Other colours are available as well - in Turkey, you can find small dolls made of colourful Turkish Delight.

Anything else you wanted to know about this sweet? <G>

yael




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 26 19:27:45 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:27:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cho Chang
Message-ID: <F72y54DgI6bXmdMJOtd000156e7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13064

When I was a newbie I posted this and no one replied.  I will try my luck 
again...

Signe wrote:

I have a question about Cho.  I got the impression that she was of
Asian ethnicity b/c of her name.  However, Stephanie thinks she has blonde 
hair. I looked it up in GoF, and I can see where Stephanie got confused b/c 
it talks about Cho sitting next to the girl with silvery blonde hair 
(Fleur).  However, she continues to argue (she says she remembers something 
in PoA) and it has begun to effect our Quiudditch-life, j/k.  So if anyone 
has anymore proof of Cho's ethnicity, please reply.

Signe Weasley

"You can never have too many Weasleys"


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Feb 27 05:15:34 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:15:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rereads SS question about pre-destination
Message-ID: <20010227051534.47EEA3ECC@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13065

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From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Feb 27 05:34:30 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:34:30 -0500
Subject: Viktor Krum
Message-ID: <200102270543.f1R5htC20080@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13066

OK, what do we think of Viktor?  Is he a good guy?  (Well, we know he has 
great taste in women at any rate!)  Is he, as some have suggested, just 
downright creepy?

I ask this because, in a review of my story, "Hermione's 4th Year" (PLUG!), 
someone said they thought my Viktor was a lot like Harry because he doesn't 
like being singled out.  This is the impression I get from him in the canon, 
since he's surly and quiet most of the time.  Maybe he's just more used to his 
fame than Harry is, but I didn't get the impression that he enjoyed it.

Thoughts?

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Feb 27 06:34:48 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 06:34:48 -0000
Subject: Cho Chang 
In-Reply-To: <F72y54DgI6bXmdMJOtd000156e7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97fhq8+v6j4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13067

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Signe Cluiss" <signe_weasley at h...> wrote:
> When I was a newbie I posted this and no one replied.  I will try 
my luck again...
>  
> I have a question about Cho.  I got the impression that she was of
> Asian ethnicity b/c of her name.  However, Stephanie thinks she has 
blonde hair. I looked it up in GoF, and I can see where Stephanie got 
confused b/c it talks about Cho sitting next to the girl with silvery 
blonde hair (Fleur).  However, she continues to argue (she says she 
remembers something in PoA) and it has begun to effect our Quiudditch-
life, j/k.  So if anyone has anymore proof of Cho's ethnicity, please 
reply.
> 
> Signe Weasley

Hi Signe.  I skimmed through the Cho parts in PoA, and found no 
concrete description other than 'about a head shorter than Harry' 
and 'very pretty'.  Don't have GoF right now, so can't check there.  
However, I'm not recalling any 'proof' of her ehtnicity there, 
either.  Though, I will say, I thought her name was JKR's quite 
pointed way of telling us that Cho is Asian.  It never occurred to me 
that she (Cho) might be seen otherwise.   Same as with Lee Jordan 
being described with dread locks.  To me, this was JKR's way of 
giving us enough info to make an assumption, a correct one in these 
cases, rather than a red herring type of clue, about the various 
characters, without her having to go through the entire list of 
characters and giving a run-down of their looks, race, etc.  Had JKR 
done that, it would've seemed too heavy-handed, IMO.  She was clear 
about Dean Thomas, and eventually gave a clearer description of 
Angelina as well, but I would say mainly because it might not've come 
up otherwise.  Similarly, it seems a given to me that Seamus Finnigan 
is Irish, (it may say so somewhere, I'm trying to recall) and that's 
only based on his name, and that the Patil twins are of Indian 
descent, same reason (until we get their description in GoF as 
well).  With Fleur, her appearance doesn't make me think 'French', 
but her name does.  This seems what JKR's done with Cho, to me, 
anyway.

Kelley

     




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Feb 27 06:46:07 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 06:46:07 -0000
Subject: Viktor Krum
In-Reply-To: <200102270543.f1R5htC20080@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <97fiff+tf24@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13068

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at c...> 
wrote:
> OK, what do we think of Viktor?  Is he a good guy?  (Well, we know 
he has great taste in women at any rate!)  Is he, as some have 
suggested, just downright creepy?
> 
> I ask this because, in a review of my story, "Hermione's 4th Year" 
(PLUG!), someone said they thought my Viktor was a lot like Harry 
because he doesn't like being singled out.  This is the impression I 
get from him in the canon, since he's surly and quiet most of the 
time.  Maybe he's just more used to his fame than Harry is, but I 
didn't get the impression that he enjoyed it.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Kathy
> AKA Elanor Gamgee

That Krum doesn't 'enjoy' his fame seems accurate to me, Kathy.  
That's the same impression I have, as well.  I've been confused that 
people think his attraction and fondness toward Herm is creepy.  
Why?  I'm thinking of comments that he's too old for her.  How is 
that?  If he's still a student, he can't be more than 18 (in PoA).  I 
can see being concerned as a parent about my 14 yo daughter dating an 
18 yo boy, but it doesn't seem that those concerns apply all that 
much with Herm and Krum.  If he were just after 'one thing', then he 
certainly has plenty to choose from with all the girls that flock 
around him.  Aside from this matter, I can't see the problem with 
their ages.  Their maturity levels are probably about the same, and 
Herm is no ding-a-ling.  So, why does Krum seem like such a creepy 
old guy?  He's a kid, too...

Kelley




From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 08:07:45 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael oren)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:07:45 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Viktor Krum
References: <200102270543.f1R5htC20080@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <OE629jLAKZsaF2ozuZK0000c126@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13069

I must say that i, too, see Viktor Krum as a really nice guy who just happened to attend Durmstrang. He's actually quite a star in my fic (not plugging!).

I think that an adolescent who spends so much of his time in the library out of choice has to be very special. He also was the first to see beyond Hermione's exterior, which says something.

On the other hand, he is not quite like Harry. He was affected by the Imperius Curse, hurt the dragon while trying to get the egg, and used an unsuccessful transfiguration in the second task. And, well, he's ugly. <g>

yael 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan 


  OK, what do we think of Viktor?  Is he a good guy?  (Well, we know he has 
  great taste in women at any rate!)  Is he, as some have suggested, just 
  downright creepy?

  I ask this because, in a review of my story, "Hermione's 4th Year" (PLUG!), 
  someone said they thought my Viktor was a lot like Harry because he doesn't 
  like being singled out.  This is the impression I get from him in the canon, 
  since he's surly and quiet most of the time.  Maybe he's just more used to his 
  fame than Harry is, but I didn't get the impression that he enjoyed it.

  Thoughts?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 12:04:12 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:04:12 -0000
Subject: numbers again
In-Reply-To: <3A9AD29D.14718411@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97g53s+odkq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13070

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> naama_gat at h... wrote:
> 
> > I have another point to make regarding the number of students.
> > JKR has said quite specifically that there are 1000 students in
> > Hogwarts. Now, obviously that doesn't sit well with (or rather is
> > flatly contradicted by) evidence in the books. BUT - I can't 
believe
> > that JKR, who has spent years planning and thinking of the HP 
world,
> > and who is at least as intelligent as most of us here, hadn't 
thought
> > of this very basic problem. Its not a reasonable slip up, IMO.
> 
> But, neither is the wand order mistake a reasonable slip-up, but 
from
> all accounts, that's exactly what it was.  A mistake.  A huge one. 
 But,
> one that was made by the author & missed by every editor who looked 
at
> the manuscript before it went to press at both Bloomsbury & 
Scholastic.
> So, I don't think it makes too much sense to assume that JKR is
> infallible & has every detail completely worked out.  If she did, 
then
> there wouldn't be the flatly contradictory evidence about the 
number of
> students.

Of course I don't think that JKR is infallible - Flint, wand order, 
toffee/fudge... we have worked very hard here on finding just how 
fallible she is. My point was different - it was that the number of 
students at Hogwarts isn't something she could have conceivably 
skipped thinking about in years of fleshing out an imaginary world 
whose center is Hogwarts. To me that would be a slip up on a 
completely different scale than local, plot related discrepancies, no 
matter how important they are. IMHO, of course. 

Naama




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Tue Feb 27 12:20:22 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:20:22 -0000
Subject: teaching staff marital status & only children
In-Reply-To: <00bc01c0a064$cc16e480$3f14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <97g626+p0ee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13071

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> I was wondering about the fact that all of the teaching staff of 
Hogwarts are all single, apparently childless. 
> 
> Also, aren't most of the wizard families mentioned so far on the 
small side of only one or two children? There seem to be a lot 
of "only child" characters in the books.

The thought about the teaching staff occurred to me, too.  I 
considered that it's possible that we're not given many details about 
the teachers' private lives because it may have no bearing on the 
stories.  Plus, since the stories are told mainly from Harry's 
viewpoint, maybe these details are omitted because they're not 
something that Harry is curious about.  

On the other hand, we see no evidence of spouses at meals or 
celebrations, so perhaps, sadly, none of these people are attached.  
For that matter, the only couples we have seen regularly are the 
Dursleys and the Weasleys. Is this more evidence of the number of 
people who died during Voldemort's first rise to power?

Marianne 




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Tue Feb 27 13:06:58 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:06:58 -0000
Subject: teaching staff marital status & only children
In-Reply-To: <97g626+p0ee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97g8pi+a663@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13072

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> For that matter, the only couples we have seen regularly are the 
> Dursleys and the Weasleys. Is this more evidence of the number of 
> people who died during Voldemort's first rise to power?

>From the terror the very mention of Vs name inspires in people, it is 
quite possible that there was a very large number of deaths. This 
would explain many things, from the size of Harry's year (seeming not 
to fit the size of the school) to the lack of spouses. A very large 
number of deaths (remember Arthur Weasleys explanation of the dark 
mark in GoF - it seemed like it happened a lot) would explain several 
of the apparent discontinuities.



Dai




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 13:45:10 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:45:10 -0000
Subject: A Brand-New Wand (filk)
In-Reply-To: <002c01c09f9b$9c4b4620$89c44b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <97gb16+eang@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13073

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> (Author's Note: At last! I've finally come up with a solo filk for
> RonWeasley)
> 
> A Brand-New Wand (from CoS, Chap. 6)
> 
> (To the tune of I Want to Hold Your Hand)
> 
> Dedicated to Kimberly, FOW (Friend of the Weasleys)


Wow!  Thanks - a filk from the amazing Caius!  I'm sitting at work 
grinning like an idiot and trying to sing it under my breath without 
anyone noticing - it's really quite funny :D.


> 
> (The Scene: Gryffindor Common Room. Enter RON WEASLEY, with a broken 
wand)
> 
> RON
> When I borrowed my Dad's car I flew too far beyond
> In crashing, my wand got shattered: I need a brand new wand!
> This one will not respond! I need a brand new wand!
> 
> Getting Howlers from my mother's no way to correspond
> So I'm afraid to tell her I need a brand-new wand
> Please help your poor son Ron! I need a brand new wand!
> 
> It's held together now with crappy Spellotape
> And when I wave it I'm in trouble with ol' Snape
> That ol' Snape! Yellow Snape!
> 
> Can't change beetles into buttons, all I get is smoke
> So please, tell my parents this is not a joke!
> If I don't get a brand-new wand I will jump in a pond! I will jump 
in a
> pond!
> 

And a great filk it is - very cute!  Thanks for the great chuckle - 
you're the best!

kimberly
Friend of the Weasleys (hee!)





From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 27 09:15:52 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:15:52 EST5EDT
Subject: SHIP: Question for shippers  Ron and Hermione
Message-ID: <76EB8B17F5@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13074

OH yeah.  Ron likes Hermione. No doubt about it from me.  And I 
think she's got a slight crush on him.  

I dunno.....I think I'd be crushing on one of the twins, myself.  I've 
always been into guys that have a really mischievous streak in 
them and the twins just completely draw me in.

As a matter of fact, when the rumor was going around that 
someone was going to die in book 4, I was terrified that it was 
going to be one of the twins.  

Rachel Bray

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 14:18:48 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:18:48 -0000
Subject: Numbers - SHIP re: Ron - Trelawney - Snape in PS
Message-ID: <97gd08+el3c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13075

Penny:"Actually, someone (sorry I can't remember who) made the very 
good point that we're getting Harry's POV of how many tables there 
are & how many people they seat.  He could just be overwhelmed when 
he makes this observation (or just inaccurate).  What GoF says in any 
case is: "there were *about* a hundred smaller, lantern-lit ones, 
each seating *about* a dozen people"

Jim: "That's very convenient. It allows any undesirable evidence to be 
discounted."

Yep--great technique, isn't it?  <g>  

The problem is that *something* in canon or planon has to be wrong, or 
else there has to be a major magical explanation that hasn't been 
forthcoming yet.  So everyone has to choose something to ignore.  We 
just choose different things.

Angela wrote:
>The Ballad of Professor Trelawney

LOL!  It was only a matter of time before ST started channeling Elvis. 
 (Does this mean he's really dead?!  ::howls of anguish::  Nooooooo!)

Star wrote:
>Does anyone, besides myself, think that Ron reactions towards
>Hermione can mean other things besides him liking her.  

I'm R/H, and as you say almost everyone thinks Ron likes Hermione 
regardless of personal ship, but I suppose I can imagine alternative 
explanations for how he acts.  Care to run a theory by us before you 
descend into the limbo of computerlessness?

Doreen wrote: 

>1.  If Snape knew something was up with Quirrel, why didn't HE report 
it to
>AD?

This is still driving me crazy so I hope someone will come up with a 
good answer and put me out of my misery.  I can see Snape being 
something of a Lone Ranger, but does he know that Quirrell is actually 
working for V?  I can't believe he'd keep that to himself.

Doreen also wrote:
>2.  Why was Snape so peeved that Gryf won the match he was referring 
in the
>few seconds time it took Harry to catch the snitch? 

This may seem lame to you, if you've never seen a maniacal sports fan 
in action, but I do think it's pure partisan Slytherinism; he wants 
Slytherin to win the Quidditch and House cups, plain and simple.  
Plus, if Sirius is to be trusted, James lookalikes who are great at 
Quidditch give Snape indigestion.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------
 "Damn it, all this eye-twinkling is making my pupils itch."
            --Dumbledore, "The Magical Mystika Tour," by Rave

 www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=93315
--------------------------------------------------------------




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Feb 27 14:51:12 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:51:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: teaching staff marital status & only children
References: <97g626+p0ee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002501c0a0cc$bb3bb9c0$0714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13076



  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
  > I was wondering about the fact that all of the teaching staff of 
  Hogwarts are all single, apparently childless. 
  > 
  > Also, aren't most of the wizard families mentioned so far on the 
  small side of only one or two children? There seem to be a lot 
  of "only child" characters in the books.

  The thought about the teaching staff occurred to me, too.  I 
  considered that it's possible that we're not given many details about 
  the teachers' private lives because it may have no bearing on the 
  stories.  Plus, since the stories are told mainly from Harry's 
  viewpoint, maybe these details are omitted because they're not 
  something that Harry is curious about.  

  On the other hand, we see no evidence of spouses at meals or 
  celebrations, so perhaps, sadly, none of these people are attached.  
  For that matter, the only couples we have seen regularly are the 
  Dursleys and the Weasleys. Is this more evidence of the number of 
  people who died during Voldemort's first rise to power?

  Marianne 

  Has anyone made a list of just who all Voldemort has killed? 
  It could just be part of JKR's dislike of writing out complete character descriptions, mentioned in one of her interviews, she would rather that we work out our own pictures of the characters in our minds. Or, maybe by leaving them all single, it frees them up for us to imagine them together in relationships? :)

  Doreen who would love to catch Minerva having late night tea in Albus's office.


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From joannec at lisp.com.au  Tue Feb 27 14:34:22 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:34:22 +1100
Subject: Harry's hair (was: Re: Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others)
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010228013422.007d32f0@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 13077

>But Harry's hair is *black,* isn't it? Where are you getting brown?

I was thinking dark brown, and I get it from the picture on the cover of
GoF. It looks brown there.

Joanne.

--

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversefic

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joanne_c

"You know you're famous when people start saying you're gay." Hunt Block.
"I gotta go see about a girl," Good Will Hunting
Official Commodus Concubine #1
Haakon's mistress
Founder of the Coalition For A Towel-Free Buck (CFTFB)
Founder of the Coalition For A Shirt-Free Chris (CFSFC)
Official Ray Vecchio Buttermilk Purveyor
Spike's Personal Happy Meal #6
Official LitD Brendan Slut #4
Half of the Dazed & Confused Duo with Margret
Jordan's godmother.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 27 15:20:47 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:20:47 -0600
Subject: Harry's hair
References: <3.0.6.32.20010228013422.007d32f0@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <3A9BC5CF.8B1A60A6@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13078

Hi --

Joanne Collins wrote:

> >But Harry's hair is *black,* isn't it? Where are you getting brown?
>
> I was thinking dark brown, and I get it from the picture on the cover
> of
> GoF. It looks brown there.

Harry's hair is black -- jet black.  It's mentioned over & over again in
the stories.  His black hair and green eyes are very much a part of who
he is.

I would not recommend relying on the coverart for physical descriptions
of the characters.  After all, the US cover of PoA gives Hermione
flaming red hair (leading me to think it was Ginny on the cover until
I'd read the book).  Hermione has bushy brown hair and *brown* eyes
(despite the WB artist!).  :--)

Speaking of black-haired males -- anyone else wondering if JKR has a
"thing" for men with black hair?  She's given quite a few of her male
characters black hair -- more than I would think might be normal for the
general UK population.  Any comments Brits?  There's Harry, James,
Sirius, Hagrid, Snape, Tom Riddle/Voldy.  On the female side, there's
McGonagall.  Food for thought ....

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 27 15:46:46 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:46:46 -0600
Subject: Student Numbers
References: <97dqs2+i20t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9BCBE6.820766A8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13079

Hi --

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> That would be me. (basking in the fact that the listmom said I
> made "a very good point," and she's a lawyer too, and knows a good
> point when she sees one)

Oh, Steve -- you make *lots* of very good points!  <g>

Naama wrote:

> I've just read the sentence in question, and I must say it does not
> seem as though its said from Harry's POV.
>
No, it's not clear that it's from Harry's POV.  It could well be the
narrator -- I'll concede that.

> To me it reads like a simple statement of fact, albeit imprecise. But what is the problem
> with imprecision in this context? The reader does not need to know
> whether there are a 100, 102 or 97 tables. So "about 100" is quite
> adequete here.
>
Well, of course it would be silly to say that there were 97 tables.
But, why not say there *were* 100 tables (I'm sure JKR didn't have it
worked out that there needed to be 97 tables with 11 seats each to seat
every guest she imagined at the Ball).  Why include the "about"?  If it
*is* the narrator stating that fact, why qualify the reference?  The
narrator *knows* how many tables there are, right?  I just don't think
the "about" qualifier makes it irrefutable that there were in fact 100
tables.

> As to the second 'about' ("seating about a dozen"), the same argument can hold for it too. However, it may have a
> slightly meaning - it may mean that there are actually different
> numbers of people sitting at the tables (ten at one table, thirteen
> at another and so on).
>
This is a good point.  But, then, it means one cannot simply multiply 12
X 100 to arrive at roughly the number of attendees at the Yule Ball.

Let's assume there *are* about 1200 attendees at the Ball and that there
*are* 1000 students at Hogwarts.  1000 students at Hogwarts -- roughly
equal class sizes (even though we know this is unlikely given that there
are 20 Gryffindor/Slytherins in Harry's year and 20
Gryffindor/Hufflepuffs in Harry's year).  Roughly equal class sizes for
the sake of argument though would be 142 students in each year.

The Yule Ball is open to 4th - 7th year students.  That yields 568
students.  Let's say 10% of them invited a younger student as a date.
That gives you 57 more Hogwarts students at the Ball.  This all, of
course, assumes 100% attendance of the 4th - 7th years.  You're up to
625 attendees.

There are about a dozen BeauxBatons students and I assume roughly the
same number of Durmstrang students.

So, the *students* in attendance could only be about 650.  Yes?  700
tops based on these assumptions, wouldn't you think?

Staff and MoM reps -- From what we know this could not yield 500 people
could it?  So far, the people who argue for the 1000 students at
Hogwarts figure seem to have been discounting the fact that there could
be MoM types, alumni, parents, etc. in attendance.

> There is a slight hint that besides the guests at the top table and
> the staff at the staff tables all the rest are studnets:
> "When all the food had been consumed, Dumbledore stood up and asked
> the students to do the same."
> Hmm... not conclusive, but it doesn't seem as thought a large part of
> the audience weren't students. IMO, at least.
>

So -- who were the other 500+ guests to reach the 1200 figure? <she asks
with a twinkle in her eye>

I think that the 1200 figure is grossly exaggerated.  But, then, I think
JKR was just *wrong* when she made the 1000 students reference too.  <g>

> My point was different - it was that the number of
> students at Hogwarts isn't something she could have conceivably
> skipped thinking about in years of fleshing out an imaginary world
> whose center is Hogwarts. To me that would be a slip up on a
> completely different scale than local, plot related discrepancies, no
> matter how important they are. IMHO, of course.
>
So, how do you explain the internal discrepancies about the number of
students?  I agree that she probably could not have depicted every
student in Harry's year if there are indeed roughly 142 of them.  That
wouldn't make sense at all.  But, why the 20 broomsticks & 20 earmuffs?
This strongly suggests to me that Harry's year is only about 40-50
students (50 assuming that the Ravenclaws are as much as double the rest
of the Houses in terms of number of students in Harry's year).  Hey,
maybe that's why they don't have classes with the Gryffindors.  They
need all 20 earmuffs and all 20 broomsticks.  :--)  So, would Harry's
year be *that* different in terms of class size?  I just don't buy it.

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Feb 27 16:02:45 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:02:45 -0000
Subject: Student Numbers
In-Reply-To: <3A9BCBE6.820766A8@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEEGDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13080

Steve: "To me it reads like a simple statement of fact, albeit imprecise.
But what is the problem with imprecision in this context? The reader does
not need to know whether there are a 100, 102 or 97 tables. So "about 100"
is quite adequete here."
Penny: "Well, of course it would be silly to say that there were 97 tables.
But, why not say there *were* 100 tables (I'm sure JKR didn't have it
worked out that there needed to be 97 tables with 11 seats each to seat
every guest she imagined at the Ball).  Why include the "about"?  If it
*is* the narrator stating that fact, why qualify the reference?  The
narrator *knows* how many tables there are, right?  I just don't think the
"about" qualifier makes it irrefutable that there were in fact 100 tables."


Another point to add here would be that I would consider the statement
'there were 100 tables' to mean that the number of tables was around 100,
not necessarily exactly 100. Scanning a room quickly it would not be at all
easy to tell the difference between 97 and 103 tables unless they were laid
out in an obvious row format. Something that I doubt they would be for the
ball.

Hence the word about is not even needed in the sentence, as its inclusion
seems to serve no purpose.

Of course this is probably the mathematician in me speaking.


Simon
--
Come and talk about anything with other Harry Potter fans:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
----------------------------------------------------------------------





From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Tue Feb 27 16:03:15 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:03:15 -0000
Subject: Harry's hair
In-Reply-To: <3A9BC5CF.8B1A60A6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97gj43+6g4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13081

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Joanne Collins wrote:
> 
> > >But Harry's hair is *black,* isn't it? Where are you getting 
brown?
> >
> > I was thinking dark brown, and I get it from the picture on the 
cover
> > of
> > GoF. It looks brown there.
> 
> Harry's hair is black -- jet black.  It's mentioned over & over 
again in
> the stories.  His black hair and green eyes are very much a part of 
who
> he is.
> 
> I would not recommend relying on the coverart for physical 
descriptions
> of the characters.  After all, the US cover of PoA gives Hermione
> flaming red hair (leading me to think it was Ginny on the cover 
until
> I'd read the book).  Hermione has bushy brown hair and *brown* eyes
> (despite the WB artist!).  :--)
> 
> Speaking of black-haired males -- anyone else wondering if JKR has a
> "thing" for men with black hair?  She's given quite a few of her 
male
> characters black hair -- more than I would think might be normal 
for the
> general UK population.  Any comments Brits?  There's Harry, James,
> Sirius, Hagrid, Snape, Tom Riddle/Voldy.  On the female side, 
there's
> McGonagall.  Food for thought ....
> 
> Penny
> 
> you could say she has a thing for red-heads too. the whole of the 
weasley-family (flaming red), seamus finnigan (redblond), young 
dumbledore (auburn) and lily potter (darkred). not to mentione 
crookshanks!
/jennifer
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 27 16:03:40 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:03:40 -0000
Subject: VERY cheap books at etoys!
Message-ID: <97gj4s+5mcn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13082

check it out at http://www.etoys.com/cat/book/character/harry_potter
Etoys is closing down - they're selling GoF for 12.97, and both PoA 
and CoS for under 10 dollars (the hardcover version of SS is the 
same, and the paperback version is 2.99)

And for those of you with kids....some of their other stuff is 75% 
off - this means, you, penny!




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Tue Feb 27 16:12:02 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:12:02 -0000
Subject: Harry's hair
In-Reply-To: <3A9BC5CF.8B1A60A6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97gjki+ctt5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13083

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> Speaking of black-haired males -- anyone else wondering if JKR has a
> "thing" for men with black hair?  She's given quite a few of her 
male
> characters black hair -- more than I would think might be normal 
for the
> general UK population.  Any comments Brits?  There's Harry, James,
> Sirius, Hagrid, Snape, Tom Riddle/Voldy.  On the female side, 
there's
> McGonagall.  Food for thought ....
> 
> Penny
> 
you could say she has a thing for red-heads too. for instance, the 
whole of the weasley-family - flaming red, seamus finnigan - 
redblond, the young dumbledore - auburn, and lily potter - darkred 
(not to mentione crookshanks!).
but of course, it might be pretty common among the Brittish. 
> /jennifer
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 27 16:26:54 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:26:54 -0000
Subject: the HP Schoolbooks
Message-ID: <97gkge+c98p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13084

Why, oh why, aren't any bookstores going to open at midnight to sell 
these? 
Are they being embargoed as tightly as GoF was, or is there a small 
chance that a bookstore might be willing to let one out the door the 
night before>?




From paxber at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 16:27:29 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:27:29 -0000
Subject: gryffindor girls?
Message-ID: <97gkhh+r3rg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13085

Sorry for the cross post, Rebecca and others on HPfG and DiagonAlley. 
I have been wondering, though, for some time and have not seen this 
addressed: who are all the girls in Gryffindor in Harry's year?  I 
get the impression there are supposed to be 5 boys and 5 girls in 
each year. 

There are Hermione, of course, and Parvati Patil and Lavender Brown 
(I always like her name!) but who else? Other girls we see mentioned 
in lessons always seem to be in other houses, like Pansy from 
Slytherin.  Am I missing something?

Paula




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 16:37:17 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:37:17 -0000
Subject: OT identity was Re: Student Numbers
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEEGDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <97gl3t+nq2b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13086

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon.branford at h...> wrote:
> Steve: "To me it reads like a simple statement of fact, albeit 
imprecise.
> But what is the problem with imprecision in this context? The 
reader does
> not need to know whether there are a 100, 102 or 97 tables. So 
"about 100"
> is quite adequete here."

That was my bit of immortal prose, actually.

Naama Do-I-look-like-a-Steve? Gat








From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 27 16:22:44 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:22:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Question for shippers
References: <20010227021926.9AFA5274C@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3A9BD454.F395BCB0@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13087

Hi --

Star wrote:

> Does everyone, H/H shippers, R/H shippers, no-shippers, H/G shippers,
> D/H shippers etc. etc. all think that it's completely ovious that Ron
> likes Hermione?

I do think it's pretty obvious he likes her, but being the devout H/H
shipper that I am, I'm sure open to hearing your counter-arguments,
Star.  Please let us in on it before you end up computerless!  :--)

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 16:59:23 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:59:23 -0000
Subject: the HP Schoolbooks
In-Reply-To: <97gkge+c98p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97gmdb+6ani@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13088

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> Why, oh why, aren't any bookstores going to open at midnight to 
sell 
> these? 
> Are they being embargoed as tightly as GoF was, or is there a small 
> chance that a bookstore might be willing to let one out the door 
the 
> night before>?

I think it's because the bookstores have been jerked around so much 
on when these are actually coming out! The place I reserved my copies 
at (The Book Rack in Winooski, VT) told me that first they were told 
mid March, then the week after Valentine's Day, then "sometime in 
March", and finally "late February". 
 Next time I'm there, I'll have to ask whether they're actually in 
the back room, on embargo, or they still haven't arrived. 




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Feb 27 17:06:15 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:06:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] gryffindor girls?
References: <97gkhh+r3rg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c0a0df$99c74b20$0714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13089



  I have been wondering, though, for some time and have not seen this 
  addressed: who are all the girls in Gryffindor in Harry's year?  I 
  get the impression there are supposed to be 5 boys and 5 girls in 
  each year. 

  There are Hermione, of course, and Parvati Patil and Lavender Brown 
  (I always like her name!) but who else? Other girls we see mentioned 
  in lessons always seem to be in other houses, like Pansy from 
  Slytherin.  Am I missing something?

  Paula

  Gryffindor 
       Alicia Spinnet (89-96) Q. Chaser 
       Angelina Johnson (89-96) Q. Chaser 
       Katie Bell (89-96) Q. Chaser           
       Lavender Brown (91-98)      
       Hermione Granger (91-98) 
       Parvati Patil (91-98)  
       two unidentified girls (91-98) 
       Ginny Weasley (92-99) 
       Natalie MacDonald (94-01) 
    These are the girls that are named in Steve Vander Ark's Lexicon.
  http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_students.html

  Doreen             
       


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jferer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 17:05:54 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:05:54 -0000
Subject: Student Numbers
In-Reply-To: <3A9BCBE6.820766A8@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97gmpi+4u0i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13090

Penny:"So, how do you explain the internal discrepancies about the 
number of students?  I agree that she probably could not have depicted 
every student in Harry's year if there are indeed roughly 142 of them. 
That wouldn't make sense at all.  But, why the 20 broomsticks & 20 
earmuffs? This strongly suggests to me that Harry's year is only about 
40-50 students (50 assuming that the Ravenclaws are as much as double 
the rest  of the Houses in terms of number of students in Harry's 
year).  Hey, maybe that's why they don't have classes with the 
Gryffindors.  They need all 20 earmuffs and all 20 broomsticks.  :--) 
 So, would Harry's year be *that* different in terms of class size?  I 
just don't buy it."

That's by far the best argument for the smaller student population, 
and there's no clear way to refute it. Yes, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff 
might be larger than Gryffindor or Slytherin, and yes, there might be 
other sections of classes, but it's all speculation.  Again, I'm not 
trying to defend 1,000, I'm defending about 500, which don't present 
the same problems.

Best argument for a larger Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff: there's always more 
people that do the work than get the glory. Slytherins/Gryffindors 
seem exceptional and therefore "elite", since one or the other always 
seems to get the House Cup/Quidditch Cup. Sounds reasonable, but it's 
speculation.

Best argument for additional sections: Once students start taking 
electives, this basically has to be true, since each house/year group 
no longer troops off to a class together.  Some house/year groups 
could be much smaller or larger, since the Sorting Hat doesn't respect 
quotas/proportions. Again, speculation.

I was wrong that the Yule Ball seating was 1200 cold, but it is 
*about* 1200, which means it could be 1100 or something. It is not so 
far off that it's 500 or something. Your point about the numbers of 
attendees are well taken, though.

I don't think Hogwarts or wizarding society works at 300.  The problem 
of Muggle-borns going to Hogwarts if it's so exclusive is a problem, 
and the excessively low population of the wizard world that would 
result is another. I enjoy trying to make sense of this world, and you 
have to figure out where Hogwarts fits to do that. It's clearly the 
most important institution in the wizard world after the MoM.




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 17:17:18 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:17:18 -0800
Subject: SHIP: Question for shippers
Message-ID: <F41UD5euwdUTaGmvSVM0001de38@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13091


*delurks*

Star wrote:
>Does everyone, H/H shippers, R/H shippers, no-shippers, H/G shippers, >D/H
>shippers etc. etc. all think that it's completely obvious that Ron likes
>Hermione?  Does anyone, besides myself, think that Ron reactions towards
>Hermione can mean other things besides him liking her.

Hmmm. I agree that it seems like Ron has a romantic feelings for Hermione, 
but if she reciprocates these feelings remains to be seen. It's another one 
of those drawbacks to having the stories be from Harry's POV....he's just 
around Ron more, and picks up on his feelings. I think that most H/H 
shippers will acknowlage this, but they are in the opinion that Hermione 
likes Harry, while R/Hr shippers believe that she does like Ron...I have yet 
to see any die hard R/anyone else shippers, so I don't know what they must 
think about this. Okay, there is R/H (the *other* H), and R/D....but I've 
never heard their opinions, so....

*crawls back under rock*

Ginny Love/Dervish/Blythe Spirit
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 17:18:41 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:18:41 -0000
Subject: Harry's hair/numbers/Dobby's pillowcase
In-Reply-To: <3A9BC5CF.8B1A60A6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97gnhh+20u8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13092

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> Harry's hair is black -- jet black.  It's mentioned over & over 
again in
> the stories.  His black hair and green eyes are very much a part of 
who
> he is.

If ever in doubt, remember Ginny's Valentine in CoS - "His eyes are as 
green as a fresh-pickled toad, his hair is as dark as a blackboard!
He's really divine I wish he were mine the hero who conquered the Dark 
Lord!" (from memory, but reasonably accurate).  I just love that - too 
cute!

> 
> I would not recommend relying on the coverart for physical 
descriptions
> of the characters.  After all, the US cover of PoA gives Hermione
> flaming red hair (leading me to think it was Ginny on the cover 
until
> I'd read the book).  

I thought the same thing.  Got all excited too, darnit ;)
You'd think they'd make an effort on that, as red hair is something of 
a plot point in the books.  Can't be that hard to figure out hair and 
eye color before you start drawing, can it?

 
> Speaking of black-haired males -- anyone else wondering if JKR has a
> "thing" for men with black hair?  

Yeah, I've been wondering about that as well.  She described Sirius as 
'dead sexy' in an interview.  Physically his description is fairly 
similar to that of Snape, James, Riddle, and presumably the future 
Harry, if he grows taller, so...  Of course personality has a lot to 
do with sexiness too.  Course that doesn't stop anyone from liking 
Draco - they just fix that bit ;)

=========

Re:Numbers debate - 
The debate rages in the following general way:
>Penny:"Actually, someone (sorry I can't remember who) made the very
>good point that we're getting Harry's POV of how many tables there
>are & how many people they seat.  He could just be overwhelmed when
>he makes this observation (or just inaccurate).  What GoF says in any
>case is: "there were *about* a hundred smaller, lantern-lit ones,
>each seating *about* a dozen people"

>Jim: "That's very convenient. It allows any undesirable evidence to 
>be
>discounted."

>AmyZ: Yep--great technique, isn't it?  <g>

>The problem is that *something* in canon or planon has to be wrong, 
>or else there has to be a major magical explanation that hasn't been
>forthcoming yet.  So everyone has to choose something to ignore.  We
>just choose different things.

I've been reading the numbers debate this time, and it's kind of fun 
for me.  I don't have any big problem believing there are 1000 
students at Hogwarts.  I don't have any trouble believing there are 
300 or 500 either.  I can accept that there may be magic involved, 
and that I may never even learn what it is.  I guess for me, 
suspension of disbelief has never been particularly difficult where a 
good book is involved, or when my own entertainment is involved, or, 
well, a lot of the time :D
I think I took a lesson from the queen:

"There's no use trying," she said: "one can't believe impossible
things."
    "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen.  "When 
I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day.  Why, 
sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before 
breakfast."
    - Through the Looking Glass, Lewis Carroll

========

Dobby's pillowcase:

There *is* one thing that's confusing me at the moment though.  When 
we're first introduced to Dobby in Harry's bedroom in CoS, it says 
he's wearing a pillowcase, with arm and leg-holes cut out.  Does 
anyone else find this odd?  I can see a head hole and arm holes, and 
the open end down like a dress,but if there are arm and leg holes, all 
I can imagine is that the open end is then bunched up around his neck 
or something.  The chapter illustration used looks more like I 
imagined it, but that's an artist's interpretation.  Do you think she 
meant for it to look like a trash bag with arms and legs sticking out?  
Curious.

kimberly
Friend of the Weasleys (yeah, I'm taking Caius' title and running with 
it!)




From bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr  Tue Feb 27 17:22:27 2001
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr (bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:22:27 -0000
Subject: candy debate
In-Reply-To: <OE28llNY30kkZIhTrBo0000d0f1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97gnoj+dn1d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13093


This link wilkl tell you everything you need to know about Turkish 
Delight :

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjw/recipes/candy/turk-del/sds-turk-del.html



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "yael oren" <yael_pou at h...> wrote:
> Rachel wrote: "Turkish Delight has orange juice in it.  That's 
about all I know about 
> that one.  I found the recipe on a CS Lewis site the other week 
> when looking up info on the Narnia Chronicles."
> 
> Not accurate. Turkish delight, in the base form, is merely powdered 
sugar, water, gelatine (or cornstarch flour) and almonds. All right, 
you can do without the almonds, but it's not the same thing. :)
> 
> To that base, you usually add colouring powder, any fruit juice, 
ground lemon peel or vanilla essence. And almonds. Or pistachios. You 
usually roll it in ground coconut or sugar powder.
> 
> Very sweet. Comes in a variety of firmness from soft marshmallow 
(rare and as sticky as wet marshmallow) to large jelly-bear-like 
substance (more common, almost doesn't stick). The colour is usually 
white with green spots (the pistachios) but very often pink. Other 
colours are available as well - in Turkey, you can find small dolls 
made of colourful Turkish Delight.
> 
> Anything else you wanted to know about this sweet? <G>
> 
> yael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 17:19:37 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:19:37 -0000
Subject: Student Numbers
In-Reply-To: <3A9BCBE6.820766A8@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97gnj9+hgo2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13094

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Naama wrote:
> 
> > To me it reads like a simple statement of fact, albeit imprecise. 
But what is the problem
> > with imprecision in this context? The reader does not need to 
know
> > whether there are a 100, 102 or 97 tables. So "about 100" is 
quite
> > adequete here.
> >
> Well, of course it would be silly to say that there were 97 tables.
> But, why not say there *were* 100 tables (I'm sure JKR didn't have 
it
> worked out that there needed to be 97 tables with 11 seats each to 
seat
> every guest she imagined at the Ball).  Why include the "about"?  
If it
> *is* the narrator stating that fact, why qualify the reference?  
The
> narrator *knows* how many tables there are, right?  I just don't 
think
> the "about" qualifier makes it irrefutable that there were in fact 
100
> tables.
> 

I've thought about the about (see what you're doing to me, Penny? 
<g>) and I've come up with a thought that is interesting and new for 
me, but really very theoretical and obstruse. Be Warned.
It seems to me like this - its not only that "about 100" conveys 
enough information necessary in the context; the 'about' also creates 
the correct context for the reader. That is, the 'about' is a hint 
for the reader that the exact number of tables is not an important 
detail. It serves the narrative by creating the right emphasis or 
de-emphasis. 
To return to the point. My conclusion would be that the 'about' 
doesn't *qualify* the reference; its job is to de-emphasise the 
importance of the detail (which is different from saying that the 
detail is incorrect!). In which case, there *were* about a hundred 
tables at the Yule ball. ;)

 
> > My point was different - it was that the number of
> > students at Hogwarts isn't something she could have conceivably
> > skipped thinking about in years of fleshing out an imaginary 
world
> > whose center is Hogwarts. To me that would be a slip up on a
> > completely different scale than local, plot related 
discrepancies, no
> > matter how important they are. IMHO, of course.
> >
> So, how do you explain the internal discrepancies about the number 
of
> students?  I agree that she probably could not have depicted every
> student in Harry's year if there are indeed roughly 142 of them.  
That
> wouldn't make sense at all.  But, why the 20 broomsticks & 20 
earmuffs?
> This strongly suggests to me that Harry's year is only about 40-50
> students (50 assuming that the Ravenclaws are as much as double the 
rest
> of the Houses in terms of number of students in Harry's year).  
Hey,
> maybe that's why they don't have classes with the Gryffindors.  
They
> need all 20 earmuffs and all 20 broomsticks.  :--)  So, would 
Harry's
> year be *that* different in terms of class size?  I just don't buy 
it.
> 

Like I already said, the evidence in the books *flatly* contradicts 
the 1000 students statement. The only point I'm (trying) to make is 
that we can't just dismiss JKR's 1000-students statement as a simple 
mistake. Because it can't be a simple mistake. JKR *must* have 
thought about the number of students at Hogwarts. Therefore when she 
makes a statement about the number of studnets, it can't be a spur of 
the moment thing. Is there a solution? No, there isn't, its a 
paradox! A lovely, lovely paradox! (where on earth have I read 
this?!)

Naama, who wonders - do mental homes have internet access?? 





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 27 17:37:03 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:37:03 -0000
Subject: the WB screen saver
Message-ID: <97gojv+evqf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13095

It's available at 
http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/diagonalley/fb_screens.jsp




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Feb 27 17:48:36 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:48:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's hair/numbers/Dobby's pillowcase
References: <97gnhh+20u8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010201c0a0e5$b2576200$0714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13096

Dobby's pillowcase:

There *is* one thing that's confusing me at the moment though.  When we're first introduced to Dobby in Harry's bedroom in CoS, it says he's wearing a pillowcase, with arm and leg-holes cut out.  Does anyone else find this odd?  I can see a head hole and arm holes, and the open end down like a dress,but if there are arm and leg holes, all I can imagine is that the open end is then bunched up around his neck or something.  The chapter illustration used looks more like I imagined it, but that's an artist's interpretation.  Do you think she meant for it to look like a trash bag with arms and legs sticking out?  Curious.

kimberly
This is what I love about this club! For most of my reading life, I thought that I was the only one who noticed quirky things like this. 

Typos bug me too, which brings to mind my total disappointment in the quality of the US HP paperbacks with many instances of missing letters, due to poor printing job. 

As anyone who has dressed a small child as a ghost for halloween, knows, it is not necessary to "cut out" the leg holes... only the head and arm holes, which makes it a great easy costume. What JKR was thinking when she wrote that is beyond me. Like you, I read that line, wrinkled my brow, looked at the illustration, shrugged my shoulders, and read on.

On the other hand, I sailed right past the "ancestor" without even noticing the significance of the use of the wrong term. :)

Doreen, who loves her Sorting Hat bookends which now embrace her books 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Feb 27 17:58:50 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:58:50 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Question for shippers
In-Reply-To: <3A9BD454.F395BCB0@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97gpsq+k018@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13097

> Star wrote:
> 
> > Does everyone, H/H shippers, R/H shippers, no-shippers, H/G 
shippers, D/H shippers etc. etc. all think that it's completely 
ovious that Ron likes Hermione?

Penny wrote: 
> I do think it's pretty obvious he likes her, but being the devout 
H/H shipper that I am, I'm sure open to hearing your counter-
arguments, Star.  Please let us in on it before you end up 
computerless!  :--)

I also think it's obvious Ron likes Hermione and I doubt my mind will 
change on that. But what keeps me coming back to HP4GUs 
is the chance to read the various opinions (and clap my hands in 
agreement with some, think "Well, that *is* a good point" on others, 
and to shake my head - "Totally misses the point!" on still 
others.... :*). It's this stuff that makes this list fun. I second 
Penny in saying we're open to counter-arguments, Star - have at it!

Regards,
B




From paxber at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 18:07:13 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:07:13 -0000
Subject: Harry's hair
In-Reply-To: <3A9BC5CF.8B1A60A6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97gqch+gc2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13098

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> Speaking of black-haired males -- anyone else wondering if JKR has a
> "thing" for men with black hair?  She's given quite a few of her 
male
> characters black hair -- more than I would think might be normal 
for the
> general UK population.  

Maybe, as in lots of British mythology, the streak of magic goes with 
Celtic blood....lots of Celts are dark, are they not? There are 
common references (not in HP!) to "black Irish", Welsh with dark hair 
and blue eyes, and to "Highland black and blue" (hair and eyes 
respectively).

OK, I'm being silly....but I bet the Mabingion is in the HOgwarts 
library!

Paula




From paxber at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 18:15:19 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:15:19 -0000
Subject: gryffindor girls? nevermind
In-Reply-To: <97gkhh+r3rg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97gqro+a3vu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13099

--- I wrote:
> I have been wondering, though, for some time and have not seen this 
> addressed: who are all the girls in Gryffindor in Harry's year?  I 
> get the impression there are supposed to be 5 boys and 5 girls in 
> each year. 

Er, nevermind. I found that this had been previously discussed, in 
the HP Lexicon (under Gryffindor). Sorry. My excuse is that a) I'm 
new here and b) there are a LOT of files associated with this group! 

Paula, blushing






From ender_w at msn.com  Tue Feb 27 18:39:56 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:39:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's hair (was: Re: Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others)
References: <3.0.6.32.20010228013422.007d32f0@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <000d01c0a0ec$af99eb80$a1e7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 13100


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joanne Collins 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 9:34 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's hair (was: Re: Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others)


  >>But Harry's hair is *black,* isn't it? Where are you getting brown?

  >I was thinking dark brown, and I get it from the picture on the cover of
  >GoF. It looks brown there.

  >Joanne.


  the truth is, it's very, very rare for caucasians to have truly black hair, though some may be described that way.  People call my hair black, and it's not, it's brown...even red in the sun.  

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jferer at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 18:37:29 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:37:29 -0000
Subject: "The Letter," Part Two
Message-ID: <97gs59+4cmt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13101

I've posted Part Two of "The Letter"  on ff.net at 
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-
read&storyid=170482 . Your reviews will be appreciated.

In the second part, Amanda and Sarah's father struggles with himself 
over his daughter going away not just to a boarding school, but a 
different world altogether.  Amanda and Sarah visit to Diagon Alley 
and meet one of Hermione's friends, a professor at Hogwarts. And 
there's something special about one of the girls... hope you like it.




From ljl236 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 18:53:07 2001
From: ljl236 at yahoo.com (LJL)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:53:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: numbers
In-Reply-To: <983294822.19504.24759.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010227185307.99299.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13102

   Just as an aside, I'm thinking some of the number and faculty questions
spring from the fact that Hogwarts is SO different from what most of us
are accustomed to in the U.S. 
   I've wondered about the faculty situation; often, the head of a house
in a boarding school is a married man, and the spouse is sort of an
unofficial Mom for the kids. I imagine it's possible there's a whole
domestic side to Hogwarts we don't know anything about because it hasn't
been relevant. That could change, though, because as the students get
older, the head of the house typically invites prefects or favored
students to Sunday dinner or tea or the like as a special treat, and
that's when the kids meet the spouse and get a little respite from dorm
life. So maybe Harry and his pals have some privileges ahead of them when
they are a little older.
   And as for the total number of students, based on my own experience,
attending a school of about 500 students from age 11 to 18 means you
eventually know or recognize every kid in school just from seeing him or
her around the halls or in the dining room or library or at activities,
etc., even if you never go to class together. You might not be friends or
even close in age, but the school offers a real community -- much more so,
I imagine, than in a school with a thousand students or more. Same for the
faculty. So I find the descriptions of Hogwarts from Harry's point of view
ring very true.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 19:04:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:04:13 -0000
Subject: editors' Flints (was Dobby's pillowcase)
In-Reply-To: <010201c0a0e5$b2576200$0714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <97gtnd+j8da@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13103

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who spent time wondering about arm 
and leg holes before deciding that it was just a glitch.

However, the following sentence will drive me crazy whenever I read 
it, and I hope it's been corrected in the printing I buy:

"Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not 
stand united, there is no hope for any of us." (GoF, 712 US ed)

That is the kind of sentence that I read and reread, trying to make 
sense of it even though I know it's just a mistake.  Same with 
misplaced modifiers, which Jo writes now and then and which her 
editors don't catch.

Amy Z
an English teacher at heart




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Feb 27 19:30:43 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:30:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] editors' Flints (was Dobby's pillowcase)
References: <97gtnd+j8da@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012501c0a0f3$c82f1600$0714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13104


  However, the following sentence will drive me crazy whenever I read 
  it, and I hope it's been corrected in the printing I buy:

  "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not 
  stand united, there is no hope for any of us." (GoF, 712 US ed)
  That is one that I didn't catch ... I wonder if anyone else did and if it has been discussed? I am not an English teacher and it took me a couple readings to realize what was wrong with it, doing a mental sentence diagram (thanking the teacher who taught me to do that).

  The wand order was an easy one, for everyone, I think, because we started expecting a certain order, once we realized what was happening. Also, the order of their deaths has been discussed so many times. (I agree that this mistake should have been admitted to ... not just glossed over and changed) 

  As for the descendant/ancestor error, JKR describes it as a "deliberate error" but never further explains what she meant by that or why she did it. I think it was a bold-faced cop-out, like she meant to do that but never mentioned it until it was pointed out to her. Yeah, right.

  Maybe, instead of proof readers, she should hire some English teachers to edit her books for her... or the HP4GU group. Someone want to suggest that to her? We could get to read it before anyone else. hee hee

  Doreen dangling participles and ending her sentences with 


  That is the kind of sentence that I read and reread, trying to make 
  sense of it even though I know it's just a mistake.  Same with 
  misplaced modifiers, which Jo writes now and then and which her 
  editors don't catch.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 19:36:43 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael oren)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:36:43 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's hair (was: Re: Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others)
References: <3.0.6.32.20010228013422.007d32f0@mail.lisp.com.au> <000d01c0a0ec$af99eb80$a1e7183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <OE15GwIejiKIhsgc1cE0000d3cd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13105

    the truth is, it's very, very rare for caucasians to have truly black hair, though some may be described that way.  People call my hair black, and it's not, it's brown...even red in the sun.  

    ender

That may be true in mid-Europe, but in the middle east that's hardly the reality. Although i have auburn hair, both my father and my sister have black (almost blue) hair and more than half my friends have black hair. Sometimes, after the shower, they frightfully resemble Snape. <g>

yael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Feb 27 20:14:38 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:14:38 -0000
Subject: A little OT, was gryffindor girls? nevermind
In-Reply-To: <97gqro+a3vu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97h1re+gfjj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13106

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., paxber at y... wrote:
> --- I wrote:
> > I have been wondering, though, for some time and have not seen 
this 
> > addressed: who are all the girls in Gryffindor in Harry's year?  
I 
> > get the impression there are supposed to be 5 boys and 5 girls in 
> > each year. 
> 
> Er, nevermind. I found that this had been previously discussed, in 
> the HP Lexicon (under Gryffindor). Sorry. My excuse is that a) I'm 
> new here and b) there are a LOT of files associated with this 
group! 
> 
> Paula, blushing

Dont blush Paula!  It is perfectly OK, we love to discuss these 
things over and over again.  One of the favorite activities of this 
group is the beating of dead horses, which is almost as popular as 
nit-picking.  You see, if we discuss every single aspect of 
everything in the HP books over and over again, we may eventually 
reconcile all the inconsistent details and mysteries and prove, once 
and for all, that the HP books are, as we are all hoping deep in our 
little hearts, works of non-fiction.

--Joywitch, who is being perfectly serious for once




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 20:18:04 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:18:04 -0000
Subject: editors' Flints (was Dobby's pillowcase)
In-Reply-To: <97gtnd+j8da@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97h21s+t6g0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13107

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> I'm so glad I'm not the only one who spent time wondering about arm 
> and leg holes before deciding that it was just a glitch.

Thank heavens I'm not alone in wondering about something so silly as a 
pillowcase!  You guys make me feel better! 

> 
> However, the following sentence will drive me crazy whenever I read 
> it, and I hope it's been corrected in the printing I buy:
> 
> "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not 
> stand united, there is no hope for any of us." (GoF, 712 US ed)
> 
> That is the kind of sentence that I read and reread, trying to make 
> sense of it even though I know it's just a mistake.  

Yes!  That one drove me nuts - I kept thinking there must be some 
extra negative that I was missing, and that if I were reading it 
correctly, it would make sense.  I finally gave up and decided it was 
an error, but any time I come back to that passage I have to read it 
two or three times just to make sure I wasn't missing the point.
I'm no english teacher, in reality or at heart, but I went nearly mad 
trying to deal with that one.




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 20:18:08 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:18:08 -0000
Subject: editors' Flints (was Dobby's pillowcase)
In-Reply-To: <97gtnd+j8da@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97h220+ld1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13108

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> I'm so glad I'm not the only one who spent time wondering about arm 
> and leg holes before deciding that it was just a glitch.

Thank heavens I'm not alone in wondering about something so silly as
a 
pillowcase!  You guys make me feel better! 

> 
> However, the following sentence will drive me crazy whenever I read 
> it, and I hope it's been corrected in the printing I buy:
> 
> "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not 
> stand united, there is no hope for any of us." (GoF, 712 US ed)
> 
> That is the kind of sentence that I read and reread, trying to make 
> sense of it even though I know it's just a mistake.  

Yes!  That one drove me nuts - I kept thinking there must be some 
extra negative that I was missing, and that if I were reading it 
correctly, it would make sense.  I finally gave up and decided it was 
an error, but any time I come back to that passage I have to read it 
two or three times just to make sure I wasn't missing the point.
I'm no english teacher, in reality or at heart, but I went nearly mad 
trying to deal with that one.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Feb 27 21:00:17 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:00:17 -0000
Subject: editors' Flints (was Dobby's pillowcase)
In-Reply-To: <97h220+ld1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97h4h1+bbhu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13109

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > I'm so glad I'm not the only one who spent time wondering about 
arm 
> > and leg holes before deciding that it was just a glitch.
> 
> Thank heavens I'm not alone in wondering about something so silly as
> a 
> pillowcase!  You guys make me feel better! 
> 
> 

Nothing silly about worrying over a pillowcase! In fact, pillowcases, 
tie-dyed, especially, make very good halloween costumes for little 
kids.
Which is why I don't think that arm- and leg-holes is a glitch. I 
think it's correct - for one reason - house elves have VERY big 
heads - it soundslike they should be bigger than human heads, even if 
the elves are smaller, which means that it might not be possible to 
pull a pillowcase OVER a house elf's head, with the legs coming out 
of the place where the pillow usually goes into the case. Instead, I 
imagine the house elf cutting arm holes into the sides of the case, 
towards the opening, and cutting leg holes into the closed end, and 
pulling the pillowcase up from the feet, instead of down from the 
head, so it never goes over the head at all.
Does that make sense?




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Feb 27 21:14:09 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:14:09 -0800
Subject: Durmstrang (was: [HPforGrownups] Viktor Krum)
In-Reply-To: <OE629jLAKZsaF2ozuZK0000c126@hotmail.com>
References: <200102270543.f1R5htC20080@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010227125855.02c92f00@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13110

At 10:07 AM 2/27/01 +0200, yael oren wrote:
>I must say that i, too, see Viktor Krum as a really nice guy who just 
>happened to attend Durmstrang. He's actually quite a star in my fic (not 
>plugging!).

Could Durmstrang be sort of a mirror image of Hogwarts, i.e. one good house
(that Viktor is in) and three evil ones?  Or maybe if one had the "Matter 
Triplicator"
from _Red Dwarf_ and triplicated Hogwarts, you'd get Beauxbatons and 
Durmstrang --
Beauxbatons would be "High Hogwarts": Immaculate, angelic, high-minded, 
perhaps
a bit straight-laced; and Durmstrang would be "Low Hogwarts": Dark, 
corrupt, grimy,
in short, a Death Eater's Paradise.  Of course, I'm just wildly speculating 
here...



                                                 -- Dave




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 21:07:50 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:07:50 -0000
Subject: Harry's hair 
In-Reply-To: <OE15GwIejiKIhsgc1cE0000d3cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97h4v6+pf8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13111

Ender wrote:
>     the truth is, it's very, very rare for caucasians to have truly 
>black hair, though some may be described that way.  People call my 
>hair black, and it's not, it's brown...even red in the sun.  

Yael wrote:

> That may be true in mid-Europe, but in the middle east that's 
>hardly the reality. Although i have auburn hair, both my father and 
>my sister have black (almost blue) hair and more than half my 
>friends have black hair. Sometimes, after the shower, they >
>frightfully resemble Snape. <g>

Yael mentions "shower" and "Snape" in the same sentence and several 
Severus-lusting listies swoon...Carole, put your head between your 
knees and breathe slowly.  We're looking forward to that summary, and 
you can't keel over 'til it's done.

Back to hair--

Black hair is common in Ireland too, which yields that pale 
skin/black hair combination that Jo seems so fond of.  You may be 
right, Ender, that most "black" hair is actually very dark brown if 
you look closely enough, but there's a difference between that for-
all-intents-and-purposes black and the color of Harry's hair on the 
US cover of GoF, which is simply dark brown.  I won't pick on that 
cover too much, 'cause otherwise it's very close to my mental picture 
of Harry, but his hair isn't canon, IMHO.

Amy Z
in love with a black-haired Celt (is that like being in love with a 
big blue frog?  I feel a filk coming on!)






From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Feb 27 21:30:50 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:30:50 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: editors' Flints (was Dobby's pillowcase)
In-Reply-To: <97h220+ld1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEOCDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13112

I figure that this is the main reason why HP #5 is being listed with a 2002
publishing date.  JKR and her editors want plenty of time to "beta-read" the
book, which can't be done when you have a rushed deadline.  (See Peg Kerr's
humorous essay on "How errors creep in" - Message #5582.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/5582  )

I definitely feel that JKR & company should choose a few fanatic adult fans
to beta-read.  Perhaps the Illustrious Moderators of our group... ;)

SML


===========================================
Millions long for immortality who do not
know what to do with themselves on a rainy
Sunday afternoon.
                            - Susan Ertz
===========================================




From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Feb 27 21:57:32 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:57:32 -0000
Subject: Harry's hair
In-Reply-To: <97h4v6+pf8a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97h7sc+ugmu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13113

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> Black hair is common in Ireland too, which yields that pale 
> skin/black hair combination that Jo seems so fond of.  You may be 
> right, Ender, that most "black" hair is actually very dark brown if 
> you look closely enough, but there's a difference between that for-
> all-intents-and-purposes black and the color of Harry's hair on the 
> US cover of GoF, which is simply dark brown.  I won't pick on that 
> cover too much, 'cause otherwise it's very close to my mental 
picture of Harry, but his hair isn't canon, IMHO.

My mom's (I tried calling her "Mum" recently and she just stared at 
me) family is of Scottish heritage, and the lot of them have either 
very red or true black hair - although I think Ender is right about 
many "black"-headed folks actually being dark brunettes. As far as 
the cover, Amy, I'm with you - the hair isn't canon, but it's how I 
imagine Harry (vertical scar and all).

Obviously just rambling (and wishing she'd inherited either black or 
red hair),

B





From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 22:37:11 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:37:11 -0000
Subject: Harry's hair/numbers/Dobby's pillowcase
In-Reply-To: <010201c0a0e5$b2576200$0714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <97ha6n+nocp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13114

> As anyone who has dressed a small child as a ghost for halloween,
> knows, it is not necessary to "cut out" the leg holes... only the
> head and arm holes, which makes it a great easy costume. What JKR
> was thinking when she wrote that is beyond me. Like you, I read
> that line, wrinkled my brow, looked at the illustration, shrugged
> my shoulders, and read on.

The pillowcases on my bed right now have an opening along the
middle back of the case, rather than at the end.  One folds the
pillow to put it into the case.  Maybe JKR had something like that
in mind, or perhaps she was thinking more of something like the
duvets I knew from my stays in France and Germany, where the cases
button along the one end.  Then the house-elves would indeed wear
them "upside down" with arm and leg holes cut into the sides and 
closed end and the buttons up along their shoulders....

....Craig




From jelsila at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 23:01:53 2001
From: jelsila at hotmail.com (jelsila at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:01:53 -0000
Subject: To Steve:  Lexicon plagiarism on ff.net
Message-ID: <97hbl1+10q3k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13115

Don't know if anybody else has seen this, but somebody's ripped off 
the Lexicon page about the number of students at Hogwarts and posted 
it as their own "story" at ff.net.  I posted a review pointing 
readers to the Lexicon, and clicked the button to tell ff.net staff 
that I thought this violated their guidelines.

If you're interested, the story's at 
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/index.fic?action=story-
read&storyid=218163

Mwalimu




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 27 23:04:51 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:04:51 -0500
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
References: <97h4v6+pf8a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13116

Sorry this is a bit delayed.  Which is no excuse because it is possibly the
shortest chapter in the book.

This chapter starts with Harry and Cedric landing in the graveyard in Little
Hangleton.  They are apprehensive.  Neither knew the Triwizard Cup was a
portkey (neither did anyone else for that matter.)  They draw their wands
and see someone approach.  Its Wormtail with the proto-Voldemort in his
arms.  Before they realize what is happening Voldemort orders Wormtail to
"Kill the Spare" and just like that Cedric is killed with the killing curse.

Harry is stunned.  He's dragged to Tom Riddle Sr.'s headstone and bound and
gagged.  Wormtail then prepares to move all the elements into place to
effect Voldemort's reincorporation.

1. A large stone cauldron
2. Lights a fire beneath
3. Places the proto-Voldemort in the cauldron

Harry prays it will drown.  Its described as the size of a human child, but
hairless, scaly, dark, raw, reddish black (there are those colors again).
Its face was flat like a snakes with gleaming red eyes. (yech!)

The incantation is then performed:

Bone of the father, unknowingly given. You will renew your son.
Flesh of the servant, willingly given. You will revive your master.
Blood of the enemy, forcibly taken.  You will resurrect your foe.

Wormtail cuts his right hand off and draws Harry's blood.

White steam issues from the cauldron.  A tall, skeletal man appears whose
face is whiter than a skull, with wide livid red eyes, a flat nose with
slits like a serpant

Lord Voldemort had risen.

Questions:

1.  When Peter Pettigrew is serving the dark lord is he always called
wormtail?  As if his name was changed once he went over to the dark side.
Do the other Death Eaters know who Wormtail is?

2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital to the plot
and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?

3.  Why didn't Wormtail bleed to death after he cut off his arm?

Did you read this chapter verbatim to your kids?  Were they creeped out?

In answer to the last question, this chapter was the only chapter I
paraphrased to my 7 yo when we read this book.  My next email has the
version of this chapter I read to him.  This is for comic relief as hubby
Randy (some of you remember him) had a large part in this paraphrased
version of this chapter.

I hope to have my character summary of Sirius done before I go to bed
tonight (and then go to sleep with siriously happy thoughts...sigh)  For an
unabridged interpretation of Sirius' character you can always read the
fanfic I'm writing with Penny, "A Sirius Affair" (just thought I'd slip that
in there...hehehehehhehe)





From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 23:26:41 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:26:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Society
Message-ID: <F2924uaSXdUjpszcSmj00013e58@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13117


Ok, here goes:
I have to write an essay.  The prompt is "What is your impression of society 
today and what do you think you can do to make it better?"

Please don't thinK I want you to write the essay for me.  I was just hoping 
some of you guys had ideas, so the essay can be more objective.  Just about 
everyone on this list is pretty opinionated, so I thought it would be 
helpful to come to "y'all"  for some ideas.  (Yes, I am form Texas too)

If you reply, do it to the list or you can email me personally at 
signe_weasley at homtail.com  The ADMIN seem to get p-oed at personal messages, 
shout outs, etc.

Thanks, Signe Weasley

"You can never have too many Weasley's"
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Feb 27 23:33:48 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:33:48 -0000
Subject: Hermione's hair color on book cover
In-Reply-To: <97gnhh+20u8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97hdgs+te65@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13118

> > Penny wrote: 
> > I would not recommend relying on the coverart for physical 
> descriptions of the characters.  After all, the US cover of PoA 
gives Hermione flaming red hair (leading me to think it was Ginny on 
the cover until I'd read the book).  
> 
> Kimberly wrote:
> I thought the same thing.  Got all excited too, darnit ;)
> You'd think they'd make an effort on that, as red hair is something 
of a plot point in the books.  Can't be that hard to figure out hair 
and eye color before you start drawing, can it? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, yeah, when you first look at Herm's hair on the PoA cover, it 
does look a darkish, reddish color.  If you compare it to the pic of 
Ginny (and Ron, too, for that matter, since they both have the 
same 'Weasley red' hair) on the back of the CoS cover, it's much 
easier to see the difference.  Ginny's hair certainly makes Herm's 
look much more 'brown', to me.

Kelley 




From paxber at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 23:37:54 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:37:54 -0000
Subject: A little OT, was gryffindor girls? nevermind
In-Reply-To: <97h1re+gfjj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97hdoi+9h2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13119

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:

> You see, if we discuss every single aspect of 
> everything in the HP books over and over again, we may eventually 
> reconcile all the inconsistent details and mysteries and prove, 
once 
> and for all, that the HP books are, as we are all hoping deep in 
our 
> little hearts, works of non-fiction.
> 
> --Joywitch, who is being perfectly serious for once

Yes, I know. I still check the backs of wardrobes, too. And the Baker 
Street Irregulars have been doing something similar for decades, 
now.  I wonder how much crossover there is between Sherlockians and 
HP fans.

Paula




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Feb 27 23:39:20 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:39:20 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEFADEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13120

<snip the excellent summary of chapter 32 from Carole>

Carole: "2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital
to the plot and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?"
It happened in such a sudden and barely noticeable way that I almost missed
the fact he was dead on my first reading. It had no effect on me; the rest
of the chapter had a much larger effect. The death was not gruesome and I
guess it was in to show Voldemort's uncaring for anyone. He happily killed
an innocent, who had nothing to do with his fight.



Carole: "3.  Why didn't Wormtail bleed to death after he cut off his arm?"
He managed to stem the bleeding for a short while before he was rewarded
with the new hand, which magically sealed the wound. Maybe he also out some
sort of anti bleeding spell on the stump.



Carole: "Did you read this chapter verbatim to your kids?  Were they
creeped out?"

What kids? Is someone not telling me something?





Carole: "I hope to have my character summary of Sirius done before I go to
bed tonight (and then go to sleep with siriously happy thoughts...sigh)
For an unabridged interpretation of Sirius' character you can always read
the fanfic I'm writing with Penny, "A Sirius Affair" (just thought I'd slip
that in there...hehehehehhehe)"

You have to write about Sirius. Will it be objective or shall we just start
with the 'Sirius is sexy' line and go from there?

Of course it would have been helpful to put the link to the PoU group in at
this stage. Simon says 'all should go and read A Sirius Affair by Carole
and Penny, available at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty'. There is this really
cute baby in the latest chapter, someone who you may just recognise!


Apologies to Naama and Steve. Sorry I confused you two in my earlier
message on student numbers.

Simon
--
Mrs. Elizabeth Branford of Devon. She and her young baby son, Simon, were
on a shopping trip to London ... "I was pushing Simon in his pram ... I
hurled myself over Simon's pram to protect him ... I heard the man I'd just
passed cursing loudly. I covered up Simon's ears ..." - A Sirius Affair
Chapter 13: Trials and Tribulations by Penny and Carole
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty)
----------------------------------------------------------------------







From pbnesbit at msn.com  Tue Feb 27 23:57:39 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:57:39 -0000
Subject: Regeneration Incantation
Message-ID: <97hetj+dk1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13121

Hello--

Reading Carole's excellent summary of chapter 32, I had an 
observation that I've wondered about each time I've read the book.  
It's this part of the incantation:  "Flesh of the servant, willingly 
given"  Now, I really have trouble believing Wormtail is *willingly* 
giving his flesh.  To me, it's more that he's afraid of Voldy & takes 
care of him out of fear & also gives his flesh out of fear (and hopes 
of reward too).  

Maybe since Wormtail's flesh wasn't willingly given in all honesty, 
Voldy is no longer immortal.  

Thoughts anyone?

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker

----------------------------------------------------------------------
"...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death..."  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

"Sarcasm--just another service I offer"  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 28 00:26:20 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:26:20 -0000
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97hgjc+gas3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13122

Great job, Carole!
> Questions:
> 
> 1.  When Peter Pettigrew is serving the dark lord is he always called
> wormtail?  As if his name was changed once he went over to the dark side.
> Do the other Death Eaters know who Wormtail is?

	Peter's name was already Wormtail when he was at Hogwarts and 
helped 
make the Marauder's Map. Presumably he was not yet evil then. 
	In chapter 27 of GoF, Sirius says that the Death Eater Avery was 
part of the gang of Slytherins that Snape ran with. Assuming that this 
Avery is the Death Eater who was punished by Voldie after his 
rebirthing, then he ought to recognize Pettigrew since they were 
contemporaries at Hogwarts. Sirius also mentions in Prisoner of Azkaban 
that Voldemort's supporters in  Azkaban know that Peter was the spy. 


> 
> 2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital to the plot
> and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?

	I was not moved by Cedric's death per se; more by its effect on 
Harry and the rest. I didn't think it gratuitous. As I mentioned in a 
long ago post, the description of Ced's body parallels and is 
foreshadowed by the description of the dead unicorn in Book I. It is 
meant to recall the Centaur's line about the innocent being the first 
to suffer. Cedric even has unicorn hair in his wand.

> 
> 3.  Why didn't Wormtail bleed to death after he cut off his arm?
> 
> Did you read this chapter verbatim to your kids?  Were they creeped out?

	Harry had his eyes shut during the amputation. He must have missed 
whatever Wormie did to stop the bleeding.
	My kids are old enough to read for themselves (the video games 
were silent for three days (!) while Goblet of Fire was devoured) but 
if they were under 10 or so I would paraphrase. Of course my youngest 
was creeped out by E.T.! so he was easily crept, if that's the word.

Pippin





From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Feb 28 01:03:34 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:03:34 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEOHDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13123

>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bone of the father, unknowingly given. You will renew your son.
Flesh of the servant, willingly given. You will revive your master.
Blood of the enemy, forcibly taken.  You will resurrect your foe.

Wormtail cuts his right hand off and draws Harry's blood.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

WHY did Wormtail cut off his hand first?  Seems to me there might be danger
of him passing out from pain or loss of blood before he had a chance to take
Harry's blood.  I know that I've come close to passing out just from
whacking my hand on the doorknob (middle of the night, in the dark).  He was
sobbing the whole time he was cutting Harry's arm and collecting the blood,
AND he had to do it one-handed.  I guess he may have HAD to do his hand
first, in order for the spell to work correctly, but seems that Voldemort
was taking a chance that it might go wrong.  Of course, Voldie isn't the
smartest Evil Overlord we've ever met, is he?  He never seems to have a
back-up plan.

SML
========================================================
"Don't let the fear of the time it will take to
accomplish something stand in the way of your doing it.
The time will pass anyway; we might just as well put that
passing time to the best possible use."
-- Earl Nightingale
========================================================




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Wed Feb 28 01:03:39 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:03:39 -0000
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97hipb+2ai3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13124

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> Questions:
> 1.  When Peter Pettigrew is serving the dark lord is he always 
called
> wormtail?  As if his name was changed once he went over to the dark 
side.
> Do the other Death Eaters know who Wormtail is?

No, guys like Karkarof would have turned in the story in the trials.
 
> 2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital to 
the plot
> and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?

I thought this was quite horrendous in it's flippancy. That was 
obviously the whole idea (to me anyway) it was an illustration of the 
evilnous and lack of regard for life of V, and the blind submission 
(to the point of murder) of Pettigrew.

> 3.  Why didn't Wormtail bleed to death after he cut off his arm?

I dunno. Presumably it was taken into account by V. Otherwise he 
would have been without Wormtail in future.


For what it's worth,

Dai







From ender_w at msn.com  Wed Feb 28 01:25:15 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:25:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] editors' Flints (was Dobby's pillowcase)
References: <97gtnd+j8da@eGroups.com> <012501c0a0f3$c82f1600$0714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <001401c0a125$4ec57840$47e7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 13125


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doreen 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] editors' Flints (was Dobby's pillowcase) 

   >> As for the descendant/ancestor error, JKR describes it as a "deliberate error" but never further explains what she >>meant by that or why she did it. I think it was a bold-faced cop-out, like she meant to do that but never mentioned >>it until it was pointed out to her. Yeah, right.

  >  Maybe, instead of proof readers, she should hire some English teachers to edit her books for her... or the HP4GU >group. Someone want to suggest that to her? We could get to >read it before anyone else. hee 

  OOOH!  Me! Me! (ender, raising her hand like Hermione, until she nearly falls out of her chair)  I'm an English teacher!  Really, I am!!

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kris403 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 01:27:11 2001
From: kris403 at yahoo.com (kris403 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:27:11 -0000
Subject: wands
Message-ID: <97hk5f+bfo9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13126

I know this has evidently been discussed, but I'm new.  Could someone offer a short summary on the decision about why James came out of V's wand first.  I was under the impression that is was deliberate of JKR and not a typo.  If she stated otherwise I missed it.  I would actually be a little let down considering I have really looked forward to seeing how that problem would be resolved.

On Caroles question about the death of Cedric.  I really liked him so I was sad, but I think the intensity of the chapter took over.  I think it was a needed death, since V needed to return.  For the first time it is no longer just hearsay about what the Dark Lord did.  Now it is real.  It will start affecting Harry more than ever before, starting with someone he had grown to respect.  I think it also provides such a strong picture of how shook up Harry was when he returned with his body a complete wreck.  Also it makes the fact that Fudge won't believe Dumbledore that much more disturbing.  I can just imagine all the chaos.  It was a very clear image in my mind.

Kris




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Feb 28 01:26:25 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:26:25 -0000
Subject: Blond Hair
Message-ID: <97hk41+lr6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13127

you all may be sick and tired of hair by now. 
any way.

I would just like to share this little discovery of mine:

Blond people in the books:

Petunia Dursley
Dudley Dursley
Draco Malfoy
Bartemius Crouch Jr
Gyllenroy Lockhart
Fleur Delacour

They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid (Gyllenroy, Fleur) 
or misguided (Crouch Jr). 

Conclusion: rowling doesn?t like blondes. I am as a representative of 
sweden (the land of happy little blondes) tremendously offended.

/jennifer




From a.gisius at chello.nl  Wed Feb 28 01:38:04 2001
From: a.gisius at chello.nl (Nan Gisius)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 02:38:04 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
References: <97hipb+2ai3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01c201c0a127$186bfa60$0100a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13128

uh??? wasn't Peter wormtail in the days he was friends with James, Sirius and Lupin??? Long befor he went over to the dark side???

and the subject of the arm .... Pettigrew only cut off his finger .... and this might seem odd .. but we don't bleed to death from cutting off a finger ...... it would be painfull to us ... muggles .... but i bet that Peter either had a spell or a charm to release the pain ... or maybe rats (he had to turn into a rat real quick .. afterall .... Sirius was at the scene .. and would possibly have killed him if he had been able to find him that moment) feel less pain than humans .... 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dai Evans 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 2:03 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
  > Questions:
  > 1.  When Peter Pettigrew is serving the dark lord is he always 
  called
  > wormtail?  As if his name was changed once he went over to the dark 
  side.
  > Do the other Death Eaters know who Wormtail is?

  No, guys like Karkarof would have turned in the story in the trials.

  > 2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital to 
  the plot
  > and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?

  I thought this was quite horrendous in it's flippancy. That was 
  obviously the whole idea (to me anyway) it was an illustration of the 
  evilnous and lack of regard for life of V, and the blind submission 
  (to the point of murder) of Pettigrew.

  > 3.  Why didn't Wormtail bleed to death after he cut off his arm?

  I dunno. Presumably it was taken into account by V. Otherwise he 
  would have been without Wormtail in future.


  For what it's worth,

  Dai





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From bohners at pobox.com  Wed Feb 28 01:28:47 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:28:47 -0500
Subject: Sherlockian / Potterite overlap?
References: <97hdoi+9h2n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c0a12a$33554ae0$0a38acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13130

>> You see, if we discuss every single aspect of everything in the HP books
over and over again, we may eventually reconcile all the inconsistent
details and mysteries and prove, once and for all, that the HP books are, as
we are all hoping deep in our little hearts, works of non-fiction. <<

> ...the Baker Street Irregulars have been doing something similar for
decades, now.  I wonder how much crossover there is between Sherlockians and
HP fans. <

At least three that I know of at present, besides myself... and you're right
that the approach we take to both sets of books is very similar.

I should post the question to RUSS-L* and see how many more Sherlockian
hands fly up into the air.  Some of us are also members of HOUNDS-L**, so we
might get some answers from the more orthodox Holmesians as well.
--
A worn white leather New Testament, looking oddly feminine [RUSS-L]
a.k.a. The Late Miss Trevor [HOUNDS-L]
a.k.a. The Marauder's Map [Diagon Alley]
rebeccaj at pobox.com

* The mailing list for discussion of the recent Sherlock Holmes and Mary
Russell mysteries by Laurie R. King, which can be joined by visiting
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RUSS-L .  See "The Beekeeper's Holmes Page" at
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj/beekeepr.html for more detailed information
on the stories and the author.

** The mailing list for discussion of the original Sherlock Holmes stories
by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed Feb 28 02:14:46 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 02:14:46 -0000
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <01c201c0a127$186bfa60$0100a8c0@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <97hmum+rs89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13131

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nan Gisius" <a.gisius at c...> wrote:
> uh??? wasn't Peter wormtail in the days he was friends with James, 
Sirius and Lupin??? Long befor he went over to the dark side???
> 
> and the subject of the arm .... Pettigrew only cut off his finger 
.... and this might seem odd .. but we don't bleed to death from 
cutting off a finger ...... it would be painfull to us ... muggles 
.... but i bet that Peter either had a spell or a charm to release the 
pain ... or maybe rats (he had to turn into a rat real quick .. 
afterall .... Sirius was at the scene .. and would possibly have 
killed him if he had been able to find him that moment) feel less pain 
than humans .... 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Dai Evans 
>   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
>   Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 2:03 AM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and 
Blood
> 
> 
>   --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
>   > Questions:
>   > 1.  When Peter Pettigrew is serving the dark lord is he always 
>   called
>   > wormtail?  As if his name was changed once he went over to the 
dark 
>   side.
>   > Do the other Death Eaters know who Wormtail is?
> 
>   No, guys like Karkarof would have turned in the story in the 
trials.
> 
>   > 2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital 
to 
>   the plot
>   > and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?
> 
>   I thought this was quite horrendous in it's flippancy. That was 
>   obviously the whole idea (to me anyway) it was an illustration of 
the 
>   evilnous and lack of regard for life of V, and the blind 
submission 
>   (to the point of murder) of Pettigrew.
> 
>   > 3.  Why didn't Wormtail bleed to death after he cut off his arm?
> 
>   I dunno. Presumably it was taken into account by V. Otherwise he 
>   would have been without Wormtail in future.
> 
> 
>   For what it's worth,
> 
>   Dai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>        
>        
> 
>   _______________________________________________
> 
>   Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, 
see our
>   website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please 
also consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @ 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
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>   To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at y...
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Whoa - what am I missing?  I could have sworn that Pettigrew cut off 
HIS ARM, and not just a finger!  I mean, why else would Voldie then 
reward with him with a BRAND NEW ARM?

By the way, will Pettigrew ever pay back Harry?  He owes his life to 
Harry and has already betrayed him.  I remember Dumbledore saying in 
PoA that Pettigrew owes Harry the favor and may one day repay him.
This thought has been really bothering me.

I also wonder if later Pettigrew will help Harry and will die bec




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 28 02:00:20 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:00:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
References: <97h4v6+pf8a@eGroups.com> <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <005101c0a12a$49c32cc0$6154d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13132

All right, gang.  Here is the version of this chapter that I told to my 7yo.


Wormtail ties Harry up and gags him, then leaves to brings a large stone
cauldron, filled with a magical liquid into Harry's view.  A gigantic snake
slithers around the area.

Wormtail lights a fire under the cauldron, magical liquid sends out sparks.
Voldemort has been existing in a body kind of like squidward, with snake
head (for those unfamiliar with the TV show Sponge Bob Square Pants, I've
posted a pic of squidward in the files...link provided below.)   He's placed
into the cauldron by wormtail, they add various ingrediaments.like swill
(this is a reference to Tigger in the disney pooh cartoon) ...one of which
is a small amount of Harry's blood from his arm.  Wormtail makes a small cut
in Harry's arm to draw the blood.

Cauldron shoots out diamond like sparks from this Voldemort soup.  Surge of
white steam shoot out and Voldemort emerges in a real human form from the
cauldron.  Wormtail puts a robe on Voldemort.

By this time my 7yo was laughing hysterically at teh thought of V as
squidward. I suppose he will never quite see V as all that scary from here
on in...but we did avoid nighmares from it, so it was effective.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/squidward.gif

carole





From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed Feb 28 02:24:27 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 02:24:27 -0000
Subject: Envy and Respect 
Message-ID: <97hngr+u0u7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13133

I thought it was sad, too that Cedric died (and somehow felt I should 
have seen the signs - more later if anyone's interested), but I think 
it was a brilliant decision on JKR's part.  Why?

Harry was devasted to have lost a Quidditc match in PoA when he was at 
his weakest point - to Cedric.
He loses the first girl he has a serious crush on - to Cedric
He is the target of ridicule and ostracism when he is chosen as the 
fourth champion - because Cedric got there first and honestly.

JKR is creating a realistic and complicated situation because Harry 
envied Cedric (rightfully so) for being what Harry (as a typical 14 
year old) wants to be.  Yet Cedric is a good guy - a really good guy, 
and he dies.  Now Harry is left with the guilt of having not liked 
Cedric too much when he was alive and having been forced to witness 
his death.

Isn't life complicated just like that?  I hope I made sense!






From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 02:54:06 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 02:54:06 -0000
Subject: Sherlockian / Potterite overlap?
In-Reply-To: <004f01c0a12a$33554ae0$0a38acce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <97hp8e+ran6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13134

You may count me among the Sherlockians here.  Doyle, like Rowling, 
left many details uncovered and contradictions all through his text. 
Seventy years or so of Sherlockian scholarship hasn't settled much. 
My "Annotated Sherlock Holmes" is about three inches thick. It's 
going to be the same with Harry; it already is.

I try to visualize what it would have been like if the Internet 
existed at the time the original Holmes stories were published.




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Feb 28 02:58:15 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:58:15 -0700
Subject: Harry Potter UNO card game
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEOLDBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13135


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000056CGQ

Product Reviews
Amazon.com
The classic card game UNO is now available in a special Harry Potter
edition. Each card is beautifully illustrated with scenes and characters
from Harry Potter's first book, The Sorcerer's Stone. The cards come
packaged in a sturdy cardboard treasure chest with a faux woodgrain finish
complete with gold detailing and a felt-covered plastic insert to hold the
cards. Rules of play are almost identical to the original UNO game (players
match cards by color and/or number and try to be the first to run out of
cards), but new "cloak of invisibility" and "howler" command cards add a
magical twist to classic gameplay. --Tami Horiuchi


======================================




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 03:05:00 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:05:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blond Hair
In-Reply-To: <97hk41+lr6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010228030500.20215.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13136


--- jennifer.k at lycos.com wrote:
> 
> Blond people in the books:
> <snip list>
> 
> They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid
> (Gyllenroy, Fleur) 
> or misguided (Crouch Jr). 
> 
You left out Rita Skeeter. She's a blonde, too, and
mean. Goes with your theory.

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 28 03:12:49 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 03:12:49 -0000
Subject: Blond Hair
In-Reply-To: <20010228030500.20215.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <97hqbh+fvsa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13137

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > 
> > Blond people in the books:
> > <snip list>
> > 
> > They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid
> > (Gyllenroy, Fleur) 
> > or misguided (Crouch Jr). 
> > 
> You left out Rita Skeeter. She's a blonde, too, and
> mean. Goes with your theory.

and Narcissa Malfoy.
...but this could be the downfall of the theory, as we don't know 
anything about her except that she has a disdainful expression.

and  Gabrielle, 
...Fleur's little sister, about whom we know nothing except that she's 
the thing Fleur would miss most. 
Pippin





From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 03:27:35 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:27:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownUps]  Slightly OT: FF poll
Message-ID: <F275Dvv0iP9XGOlaYCK000126d0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13138

Ok, I am writing a fan fic in Draco/Harry et alls 6th year.  Draco is my 
main character.  But I have some questions I needed to ask a large audience, 
so if you guys wanna answer....

A) Who wins the Quidditch Cup, Gryffindor or Slytherin??  I do feel bad 
taking it from Harry, but doesn't Draco need some attention too??

B)Who should I Absolutely NOT kill, or absolutely KILL??

Stephanie
The Malfoy Maniac (aka Lady Malfoy)

You can email me about this offlist at: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From kathleen at carr.org  Wed Feb 28 03:21:56 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:21:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blond Hair
Message-ID: <200102280338.f1S3csS22737@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13139

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
>
> --- jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> >
> > Blond people in the books:
> > <snip list>
> >
> > They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid
> > (Gyllenroy, Fleur)
> > or misguided (Crouch Jr).
> >
> You left out Rita Skeeter. She's a blonde, too, and
> mean. Goes with your theory.

>and Narcissa Malfoy.
>...but this could be the downfall of the theory, as we don't know
>anything about her except that she has a disdainful expression.
>
>and  Gabrielle,
><...Fleur's little sister, about whom we know nothing except that she's
>the thing Fleur would miss most.
>Pippin

...and Hannah Abbott, who seems to be nice enough, even if we don't know much 
about her.

And I must object to the description of Fleur as "stupid".  I hardly think 
that she would be a Triwizard Champion if she were stupid.  She may be a bit 
haughty, but it's clear that she loves her sister and she was nice enough by 
the end.

Also, for some reason, the picture in my head of Justin Finch-Fletchley is 
blond.  I haven't been able to find anything in the canon to corroborate this, 
so I'm not sure how it got there, but there you go.

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From kathleen at carr.org  Wed Feb 28 03:28:21 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:28:21 -0500
Subject: A Quote to share
Message-ID: <200102280345.f1S3jMS23933@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13140

I was driving along and saw this quote on the sign outside a chuirch, and it 
made me think of Ron. (Actually, come to think of it, it fits Hermione too, I 
think.)

"Temper gets us in trouble.  Pride keeps us there."

Actually, I guess it fits Harry too, especially during the GoF argument.

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who can never stop relating everything to HP, apparently




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Feb 28 04:23:37 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:23:37 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <97hgjc+gas3@eGroups.com>
References: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010227202016.0355ab40@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13141

At 12:26 AM 2/28/01 +0000, foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:
>         In chapter 27 of GoF, Sirius says that the Death Eater Avery was
>part of the gang of Slytherins that Snape ran with. Assuming that this
>Avery is the Death Eater who was punished by Voldie after his
>rebirthing, then he ought to recognize Pettigrew since they were
>contemporaries at Hogwarts.

But Pettigrew was hidden under his cloak.  Harry only recognized
him from the missing finger.

>Sirius also mentions in Prisoner of Azkaban
>that Voldemort's supporters in  Azkaban know that Peter was the spy.

There's no indication they know he's not dead , though.



                                                 -- Dave




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Feb 28 04:36:39 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:36:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cat, Rat and Dog
References: <982924096.448.54607.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <004401c0a140$0bfd4360$d2c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13142

Just came across this on the newsgroup
humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare.Was JKR referencing this bit of doggerel
in the heading for chapter 17 in PoA? (And might we read "Hogwarts" for
"Hog"?)

 - CMC

Nicholas Gestalt wrote:
>
> A cat, a rat, and Lovell the dog
> Ruleth all England under a hog.
>
> I can't remember where I read about this bit of graffiti, where it was
found or
> when it was found.  Does anyone know?  I think it was after Shakespeare's
day
> but I'm not sure.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dlragrla

Here's how Brewer puts it:

"Rat, Cat, and Dog.

  The cat, the rat, and Lovel our dog,
  Rule all England under an hog.

The famous lines affixed to the door of St. Paul's and other
places in the City of London in 1484 at the instigation of
William Collyngburne, for which, according to the *Great
Chronicle of London*, "he was drawn unto the Tower Hill and
there full cruelly put to death, at first hanged and straight
cut down and ripped, and his bowels cast into the fire". The
rhyme implied that the kingdom was ruled by Francis, Viscount
Lovel, the king's "spaniel" or dog; Sir Richard Ratcliffe, the
Rat; and William Catesby, Speaker of the House of Commons, the
Cat. The Hog was the white boar or cognizance of Richard III."


Peter F.
peter.f at rey.prestel.co.uk
http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/




From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 04:43:35 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:43:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blond Hair
In-Reply-To: <200102280338.f1S3csS22737@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <20010228044335.812.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13143


--- Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at carr.org> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > >
> > > Blond people in the books:
> > > <snip list>

<additional snipping> 

> > You left out Rita Skeeter. She's a blonde, too, and
> > mean. Goes with your theory.
> 
> >and Narcissa Malfoy.
> >...but this could be the downfall of the theory, as we don't know
> >anything about her except that she has a disdainful expression.
> >
> >and  Gabrielle,
> ><...Fleur's little sister, about whom we know nothing except that
> she's
> >the thing Fleur would miss most.
> >Pippin
> 
> ...and Hannah Abbott, who seems to be nice enough, even if we don't
> know much 
> about her.

And I could have SWORN that Lavender Brown has blond hair, though I
just re-read two entire chapters of Divination and the Yule Ball
again, and it isn't there. Anyone else remember this reference? She's
not exactly stupid or mean, but she is a bit ditzy, even for a 14
year old girl.

In other news, I'm really happy to discover that there IS actually a
scene in GoF about unicorns, which I thought I remembered, then
decided I had made up out of Al's DD Tricorn scene. But indeed, it's
there. Fanfic tainting my canon? Naaaaah.

-Teek

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Feb 28 04:46:50 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 04:46:50 -0000
Subject: Sherlockian / Potterite overlap?
In-Reply-To: <97hp8e+ran6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97hvrq+amcn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13144

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> You may count me among the Sherlockians here.  Doyle, like Rowling, 
> left many details uncovered and contradictions all through his 
text. 
> Seventy years or so of Sherlockian scholarship hasn't settled much. 
> My "Annotated Sherlock Holmes" is about three inches thick. It's 
> going to be the same with Harry; it already is.

Will it surprise anyone to know that I am also a Sherlockian? And I 
have a copy of that same, three-inch-thick annotated Sherlock Holmes 
sitting right here on my desk next to my HP and reference books. 

And will it surprise anyone to know that I DREAM of being asked by 
Scholastic to write the Annotated Harry Potter? 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Feb 28 04:51:51 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 04:51:51 -0000
Subject: To Steve:  Lexicon plagiarism on ff.net
In-Reply-To: <97hbl1+10q3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97i057+9qc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13145

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jelsila at h... wrote:
> Don't know if anybody else has seen this, but somebody's ripped off 
> the Lexicon page about the number of students at Hogwarts and 
posted 
> it as their own "story" at ff.net.  I posted a review pointing 
> readers to the Lexicon, and clicked the button to tell ff.net staff 
> that I thought this violated their guidelines.
> 
> If you're interested, the story's at 
> http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/index.fic?action=story-
> read&storyid=218163
> 
> Mwalimu

Thanks for the heads up. I haven't had to defend my copyrights all 
that often yet, but it has happened. I have taken the necessary 
steps. Just what I needed, a little drama in my evening.

*sigh*

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From jjohnson400 at home.com  Wed Feb 28 05:07:56 2001
From: jjohnson400 at home.com (jjohnson400 at home.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 05:07:56 -0000
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97i13c+rqqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13146

Hi - I'm new to the board - I've been lurking for about a week, 
enjoying all of your posts, and have finally decided to take a deep 
breath and jump in! This chapter summary and its questions really 
struck a chord with me because I was concerned about how my daughter 
would react to the events described in it. After much discussion, 
here's our 40-something and 10-year old takes on the events:
> 
 1.  When Peter Pettigrew is serving the dark lord is he always called 
wormtail? 

Perhaps Voldemort calls Peter by his nickname to reinforce his 
superiority over him. I imagine Voldemort addressing him as "Wormtail" 
in a very derisive tone, as if Peter isn't  worthy of having a proper 
name. 
 
 2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital to 
the plot and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?

(Okay, I admit it, as soon as we got the book I skipped ahead to see 
who was killed off!) Cedric's death seems to me to be an excellent 
example of how random and senseless evil can be, so I would have to 
say it's important to the plot/character development. 


3. Did you read this chapter verbatim to your kids?  Were they creeped 
out?
>
My daughter did read this chapter verbatim, but we discussed it in 
depth (as we did Chapter 1). After this chapter, I think my daughter 
had a much clearer understanding of the evil that Voldemort 
represents. However, she did have at least one nightmare related to 
the events in this chapter. It took her a few readings to warm up to 
GoF -  PoA is still both of our favorites but GoF has slipped into 
second!

I'm looking forward to participating in this board - so nice to talk 
HP with adults instead of j




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Feb 28 05:10:47 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 05:10:47 -0000
Subject: Wand Order / Blond Hair
In-Reply-To: <200102280338.f1S3csS22737@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <97i18n+dgnc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13147


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., kris403 at y... wrote:
> I know this has evidently been discussed, but I'm new.  Could 
someone offer a short summary on the decision about why James came 
out of V's wand first.  I was under the impression that is was 
deliberate of JKR and not a typo.  If she stated otherwise I missed 
it.  I would actually be a little let down considering I have really 
looked forward to seeing how that problem would be resolved.
> Kris  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hi Kris.  A member on this list has the email addy of JKR's 
assistant, and the answer he got concerning this was that basically, 
it was a mistake as originally written, that what is 'correct' is 
that Lily comes out first.  If you follow the link below, and scroll 
about two-thirds of the way down, you'll see some info about this, 
plus there will be a link you can follow to see what the 
subsequent 'correction' of that page in GoF looks like.  Also, there 
are two articles about this at Salon.com.  I don't have a direct URL 
for them, but if you search 'Harry Potter' there they will come up.  
(There are several HP-related articles at Salon, but the article 
descriptions should be clear enough that you can easily find them.) 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
______________________________________________________________
> > --- Jennifer wrote:
> > Blond people in the books:
> > <snip list>
> > They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid
> > (Gyllenroy, Fleur)
> > or misguided (Crouch Jr).
> >
> > A B wrote:
> > You left out Rita Skeeter. She's a blonde, too, and
> > mean. Goes with your theory.
> >
> >Pippin wrote:
> > and Narcissa Malfoy.
> >...and  Gabrielle,...Fleur's little sister, about whom we know 
nothing except that she's the thing Fleur would miss most.
>
> Kathy wrote: 
> ...and Hannah Abbott, who seems to be nice enough, even if we don't 
know much about her.
> > And I must object to the description of Fleur as "stupid".  > 
> Also, for some reason, the picture in my head of Justin Finch-
Fletchley is blond.  I haven't been able to find anything in the 
canon to corroborate this, so I'm not sure how it got there, but 
there you go. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

All I see about J F-F is that he has curly hair.  Doesn't Lavender 
always end up blonde in fics, without canon evidence, though, right?  
Isn't Pansy Parkinson blonde?  This is an interesting theory, 
especially as JKR is blonde, as well.  Maybe not naturally, but she 
certainly passes for blonde to me...  Hmmm...

Kelley




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Wed Feb 28 05:11:00 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:11:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Envy and Respect 
In-Reply-To: <97hngr+u0u7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102272345440.18749-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13148

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> JKR is creating a realistic and complicated situation because Harry 
> envied Cedric (rightfully so) for being what Harry (as a typical 14 
> year old) wants to be.  Yet Cedric is a good guy - a really good guy, 
> and he dies.  Now Harry is left with the guilt of having not liked 
> Cedric too much when he was alive and having been forced to witness 
> his death.

Actually, I think the portrayal in GoF of Harry's feelings towards
Cedric is actually a little more complicated than just this envy/respect
tension (though certainly, both of these elements are present).  It
seems to me that one of the dominant modes in which Harry's feelings are
presented is the homoerotic.

(This argument is one I've made before, on hpslash, so I'm basically
cutting and pasting here.  Apologies.  Also, this is not an argument
about slash, but about how to read the text.  I'm *not* saying that
Harry the character is 'gay', but rather talking about in what way his
reactions to Cedric are portrayed (a literary discussion, not a social
one).  I'm also not making any claims about JKR's intentionality --
impossible to ever ascertain and not necessarily relevant.)

Let's look at the scene where Harry asks Cho to the dance:
At first, he's nervous: 
	
	"Harry turned to look at her and his stomach gave a weird
	lurch as though he had missed a step going downstairs."  (GoF,
	American ed., 396)

But when he's turned down, the fluttering in his stomach actually stops
(from relief?):       

	"'Oh', said Harry.	
	
	"It was odd; a moment before his insides had been writhing
	like snakes, but suddenly he didn't seem to have any insides
	at all.  
	
	"'Oh okay', he said, 'no problem'." (GoF 397) 

Now there's no real reason for Harry to be completely shocked beyond
belief at the news that she's going with someone else, so that
'numbness' which the lack of 'insides' suggests shouldn't be from
absolute shock.  He really seems mostly fine with the idea that he
can't go with her, but perhaps he is feeling relief, a sudden
lack/release of tension.

But his reaction is intense when he finds out who she is going with:

	  "'Oh -- Cedric', she said.  'Cedric Diggory.'  	  

	  "'Oh right', said Harry.  

	  "His insides had come back again.  It felt as though they
	  had been filled with lead in their absence.  

	  "Completely forgetting about dinner, he walked slowly back
	  up to Gryffindor Tower, Cho's voice echoing in his ears with
	  every step he took.  '*Cedric -- Cedric Diggory*'. He had
	  been starting to quite like Cedric -- prepared to overlook
	  the fact that he had once beaten him at Quidditch, and was
	  handsome, and popular, and nearly everone's favorite
	  champion.  Now he suddenly realized Cedric was in fact a
	  useless pretty boy who didn't have enough brains to fill an
	  eggcup."  (GoF 397f.)

First, the stomach makes its third appearance as an indicator of H's
emotions; he now feels like he's filled with lead, heavy.  This seems
to be a more serious reaction than just being turned down by Cho --
his body has been invaded by a foreign substance, he's not remembering
to eat, and he's unable to get Cedric's name out of his head.  One
should note especially that it's not her words of rejection that he
keeps hearing, but the name of his rival.

The emphasis on Cedric's appearance is rather telling since Harry
thinks of him as not only "handsome," but as a "pretty boy," both
positive physical attributes which have presumably caused Cho to
desire him.  Even while postionally Cedric is a desiring subject
in relation to Cho, Harry is casting him as the desired object,
replacing Cedric's subjectivity with his own.  

This positional ambiguity which the rival-relationship gives rise to
is precisely what makes the scene have homoerotic tensions.  Harry
continues to emphasize Cedric as desired object, rather than
desiring subject:  

	  "'...I bet you just walked past when [Fleur Delacour] was
	  turning on the old charm for Diggory and got a blast of it
	  -- but she was wasting her time.  He's going with Cho
	  Chang."  (GoF 399)

Harry is portraying Cedric here as a passive recipient (object) of
Fleur's "charm" (desire), again perceiving him in the role of desired
object.  Because it is framed in terms of another's desire (Fleur's,
Cho's), it is not his own, and therefore acceptable.  But the
portrayal is not necessarily accurate (other than Harry's, there has
been no suggestion that Fleur was trying to seduce Cedric), and arises
from Harry's perception of Cedric as desirable/ed object, rather than
from any 'objective' statement in Ron's account (who should surely
have mentioned it were that the case that Fleur desired Cedric, since
Cedric would then be his rival as well).

To my mind, this scene more than meets criteria for homoeroticism.  
I've certainly read more obvious scenes in terms of word choice, for
instance, but the insistence with which Harry repeatedly places Cedric
(for no necessary reason) in the position of desired object, rather than
rival subject, seems to me unmistakable.  And some of the word choice
even ("pretty boy") does have homoerotic overtones.

I find it especially intersting in light of this dynamic in their
relationship that it was Cedric, and not say Viktor or Fleur, who
died...

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.







From shades_of_black at mail.com  Wed Feb 28 05:30:17 2001
From: shades_of_black at mail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:30:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Chapter 32, blondes
Message-ID: <382551660.983338217950.JavaMail.root@web582-mc>

No: HPFGUIDX 13149

Hi, Grown-Ups,

Gosh, I'm offering my opinion twice this week. Somebody stop me.


"Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital
to the plot and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?"

Cedric's death was a very strange occurance. The spoilers everyone was
spouting said that someone 'beloved' would die, so when I read that scene I
was just sure he'd come back. *eye roll* silly me. My thoughts were
something like 'no, he's not loved. He'll come back. There's a
mistake...right?' It wasnt' until the last page I actually realized that
Cedric was dead and gone. But I didn't really care; I was relived it wasn't
a Weasley. I think that it showed us just how nasty Voldemort was/is, but no
more than we already knew. Face it, the man murdured a man, a woman and
tried to kill their infant, among countless others. We don't need proof. But
then, I think that JK was trying to bring it closer to home - he's still
capable of anything.

"Did you read this chapter verbatim to your kids?  Were they
creeped out?"

Oh, yes. Very frightened. Nightmares for weeks. *glances back and forth*
Seeing as I'm...*cough* not an adult (at all), let's hope I don't have
childeren. I know just how pissed you must be everyone is making jokes about
this, so I'll try and answer you. Hmm. When I was seven I was reading
graphic horror stories, so I doubt this would have fazed me if I was
younger...

Sirius summary? Yea! *drools*

Blondes:

<<They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid (Gyllenroy, Fleur) or
misguided (Crouch Jr). >>

Woah, woah, woah. Back up. If Crouch Jr. gets to be "misguided", Draco isn't
mean....and Fleur isn't stupid. Sterotypes, anyone?

==========
Morsus "Can't Touch This" Crustum *dry laugh* [get it? MC?]

Quote Of The...uh, Moment:
"Now the other theory is that life was designed by an anthropomorphic police-power freak named Jehovah. He's an all-powerful desert-macho dictator who runs around interrogating, arresting, and condemning anyone who doesn't follow his rules or bow down to him regularly. He even stationed an Irish cop named Peter at the gates of his upscale eternal vacation spot to keep dissidents out."

______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup



From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 28 05:56:05 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:56:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Regeneration Incantation
References: <97hetj+dk1o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c0a14b$24438dc0$2114a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13150


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: pbnesbit at msn.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 5:57 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Regeneration Incantation


  Hello--

  Reading Carole's excellent summary of chapter 32, I had an 
  observation that I've wondered about each time I've read the book.  
  It's this part of the incantation:  "Flesh of the servant, willingly 
  given"  Now, I really have trouble believing Wormtail is *willingly* 
  giving his flesh.  To me, it's more that he's afraid of Voldy & takes 
  care of him out of fear & also gives his flesh out of fear (and hopes 
  of reward too).  

  Maybe since Wormtail's flesh wasn't willingly given in all honesty, 
  Voldy is no longer immortal.  

  Thoughts anyone?

  Peace & Plenty, 

  Parker

  I think the fact that he managed to actually do it .. to cut off his own hand, is proof enough of his willingness. 

  While some people might think they could do such an act if they were called upon to save someone who means that much to them, how many would finally be able to go through with it? Self-inflicted pain is one of the most difficult acts to perform. We all know what a coward Pettigrew was. I think his willingness had everything to do with a means to an end. If he ever hoped to get back on Voldemort's good side, he had to cut off the hand. If he did not cut off the hand, he probably feared a much more horrible fate once Voldemort recovered his power. He would never be brave enough to even think of attempting to destroy V while he had the chance. (Personally, I was hoping he would boil the bugger while he had the chance)

  Doreen who cringed at the idea of sticking her leg with a needle in nurse's training


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Feb 28 06:38:31 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 06:38:31 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: OTChatter/Holmes
Message-ID: <02a201c0a151$114177e0$123670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13151

My Boggart (formerly a giant sheepdog with tongue lolling out of the side of its mouth) has just morphed into a demonically phosphorescent hound, to say: "Remember to take OT discussions over to our OT club at:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter "  I may be an evil, fictional beast, but I observe good netiquette.

"Pant, pant <<steamy breath>>: I'm drooling on ..the ...carpet.  Gotta.... change....back.  Ah, that's better!"

I have a few comments on Sherlock Holmes, for example, following recent posts... it's veered into OT, so I'm posting them 'over there'.

Neil

Look everyone!  He's 'setting an example' in really obvious fashion.  Let's follow!!!

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (ignition on)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




"Potter, you can skin Malfoy's Shrivelfig..." [Severus Snape, PoA]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From elysian at subdimension.com  Wed Feb 28 07:29:58 2001
From: elysian at subdimension.com (elysian)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:29:58 -0800
Subject: Blond Hair
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010227232956.0088b9b0@yifan.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13152




I haven't a clue the page number, but it's canon that Seamus Finnigan
has sandy blond hair, and from what we've seen, he's an okay guy. 

I also don't think Fleur is stupid; I think she was meant to be snobbish, 
yes, but certainly she wouldn't have been selected for Triwizard (and 
done reasonably well, despite the underwater task) if she wasn't capable 
and clever enough to prepare for the tasks. She's much nicer to Harry after
he saves her sister; I think she initially underestimated him, but learns to 
respect him. She's disdainful, arrogant, but also capable of affection and 
gratitude. I'd have to reread the chapter, but IIRC, she didn't even care 
that she botched the task; she was entirely too relieved to have her sister 
safe to care. I think she has a good heart, overall, unlike (what we're 
supposed to believe about) those nasty Dursleys. *g*


elysian (bit of a newbie to the list)




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Feb 28 08:32:00 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:32:00 -0000
Subject: seamus/stereotypes
Message-ID: <97id20+hsk7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13157


<< I haven't a clue the page number, but it's canon that Seamus 
Finnigan
has sandy blond hair, and from what we've seen, he's an okay guy. >>

but sometimes he is being described as redblond, and as that he fits 
in the red-head category (the weasley family, lily potter, 
dumbledore) as an entirely Good person.

<<They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid (Gyllenroy, 
Fleur) or
misguided (Crouch Jr). >>

<Woah, woah, woah. Back up. If Crouch Jr. gets to be "misguided", 
Draco isn't
mean....and Fleur isn't stupid. Sterotypes, anyone?>

ok. lets just say non of them are acting good, most of the time. and 
I have to say that a whole lot of the caracters in the books are 
stereotypes, being either good or bad. then in my opinion every blond 
one we get to know a little in the books belongs in the acting/being 
bad-category. 







From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 08:56:57 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:56:57 -0000
Subject: Movie Trailer
Message-ID: <97iegp+77fn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13158

OK... Does anyone know when the trailer is in Australia? I really 
want to see it... the stills look AWESOME but I don't know how I can 
see it in Australia...

~*Vicki*~




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Feb 28 09:59:53 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:59:53 -0000
Subject: Blond Hair
Message-ID: <97ii6p+htma@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13159


> > And I must object to the description of Fleur as "stupid".  > 

I have to stick to it...I can't help but find her stupid. Which 
doesn't mean that she is lacking it totally, neither that I can't see 
her good sides ? she cares about her sister, and when she want to be 
nice, she is. But she offends people without thinking, and when she 
think she cant save her sister she behaves rather hysterical (of 
course that doesn't make her stupid but less admirable ? look at 
harry, when he thinks hermione is in danger he doesn't lose his head 
but waits for krum to come and either wise he would have brought her 
up).  She is snobby and insensitive (think about how she behaved 
against ron when he asked her to the ball ? if that had been hermione 
she would have turned him down gently, even if she didn't know him). 
 And regarding the triwizard tournament, she was picked because she 
was the best student from her school, but apparently that isn?t good 
enough. And you don't have to be smart to be good at something ? she 
could have combined cramming with an inheritance of magical skill. 
Like hermione she might have a good memory, from which she can pick 
just the right piece of knowledge in every situation because she has 
been taught to do it. 

About Gabrielle we know nothing but that stupid Fleur loves her.

Rita Skeeter is mean and blond, thank you for that one. 

Narcissa I consider "bad" (snobby, cold-hearted, self-centred) too ? 
thinking of the expression of disgust in her face (common among 
disdained upper class), the fact that she is married to lucius 
malfoy, and the name rowling gave her. I don't think she will play 
that much a bigger role in the future, apart from the one as Draco's 
mother(I do not belive in her being redeemed as an oppressed wife, 
divorcing from Lucius, marrying Sirius, despite all the fan fiction 
on this subject). 
Then there is Lucius. Bad and blonde, of course.

I just think that every blond person in the book lacks either 
goodness or intelligence. Yeah, and that?s what I wanted to say...
But no despair - lets all pin our faith on Hannah Abbot (although the 
facts that she is in harworkerhufflepuff and a pretty clumsy little 
one make me think she might belong in the stupid blond-category. But 
I dont know her) 
/jennifer







From NicMitUK at aol.com  Wed Feb 28 10:07:38 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 05:07:38 EST
Subject: Wand Order / Blond Hair
Message-ID: <dc.2ee4a84.27ce27ea@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13160

>I was under the impression that is was deliberate of JKR and not a typo.  

We have since learnt (and I have had it officially from Jo - via Fiddy) that 
Lilly came out first.  It was a mistake, which was revised in later editions.

>I would actually be a little let down considering I have really 
 looked forward to seeing how that problem would be resolved.

Pain isn't it.  GoF was a little rushed to meet the publishing deadline.  
That is not going to happen for OotP... as I posted a few days ago, OotP 
won't be published until 2002 - as Jo has only just started rewriting 
following being actively involved in pre-production of the movie.

Nick 
(the groups direct link to Fiddy, PA for JKR).



From optimistic_88 at msn.com  Wed Feb 28 12:21:37 2001
From: optimistic_88 at msn.com (optimistic_88 at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:21:37 -0000
Subject: Blond Hair
In-Reply-To: <97hk41+lr6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97iqgh+unbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13161

The land of Happy little blonds? I am a blond myself and "We are not 
dumb!" Yes, even though all these blonds are mean, stupid, misguided 
or al three and more- they have fun doing what they are labeled. 
Malfoy has fun being a drop-dead-grogeous-sexy-tastes-better-than-
chocolate-who-teases-people-for-enjoyment-to-further-inflate-his-ego-
blond! Petunia and Dudley well maybe fun isn't a word for their 
stupidity but it may be for an excuse for their torment of Harry. 
Crouch Jr was misguided it's true but that doesn't mean his intellect 
was any less than say Dumbledore's or even Voldemort's (he might be a 
really evil bad guy, nut in the books it said he was smart...) I'm 
not going to even get into Lockhart-that is far too pathetic. As for 
Fleur-come on girls, don't say you wouldn't be on cloud 9 if every 
time a male looked at you he would do anything for you! So Rowling 
just has something up her but for not like us -tosses her hair up- 
because we are wonderful! -coughs- Oh, by the way I am a new member 
by the name of Kim B, I am just about 20 and live in NY&NJ. Oh, and 
I'm never tired of my beautiful locks -coughs-
~Kim "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am 
right." B~
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> you all may be sick and tired of hair by now. 
> any way.
> 
> I would just like to share this little discovery of mine:
> 
> Blond people in the books:
> 
> Petunia Dursley
> Dudley Dursley
> Draco Malfoy
> Bartemius Crouch Jr
> Gyllenroy Lockhart
> Fleur Delacour
> 
> They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid (Gyllenroy, 
Fleur) 
> or misguided (Crouch Jr). 
> 
> Conclusion: rowling doesn?t like blondes. I am as a representative 
of 
> sweden (the land of happy little blondes) tremendously offended.
> 
> /jennifer




From ender_w at msn.com  Wed Feb 28 12:33:06 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:33:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
References: <97hipb+2ai3@eGroups.com> <01c201c0a127$186bfa60$0100a8c0@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <004001c0a182$9aa07000$87421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 13162


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Nan Gisius 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood


  >>uh??? wasn't Peter wormtail in the days he was friends with James, Sirius and Lupin??? Long befor he went over to the >>dark side???


  I'm not sure that your "d'uh" tone of voice is quite warranted here.  The question of Peter's nickname seemss a valid one for a few reasons:
  1) It relates to him being an animagus, something he did not advertise to the general public.
  2) just because it was his nickname amongst the marauders doesn't mean that the whole school was calling him Wormtail, though they may have been.  We don't know.

  >>and the subject of the arm .... Pettigrew only cut off his >>finger .... 

  I don't have the book with me, but I'm pretty sure he cut off his hand in Voldmort's rebirth scene.  Perhaps you're thinking of the murder scene in which he cut off his finger, then disappeared leaving Sirius to take the blame?

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 12:38:56 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael oren)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:38:56 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownUps]  Slightly OT: FF poll
References: <F275Dvv0iP9XGOlaYCK000126d0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE25RGryWtIIZS2TRqf00000580@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13163

  Ok, I am writing a fan fic in Draco/Harry et alls 6th year.  Draco is my 
  main character.  But I have some questions I needed to ask a large audience, 
  so if you guys wanna answer....

  A) Who wins the Quidditch Cup, Gryffindor or Slytherin??  I do feel bad 
  taking it from Harry, but doesn't Draco need some attention too??

Give it to Gryffindor/Harry.

  B)Who should I Absolutely NOT kill, or absolutely KILL??

Very simple, m'dear. Don't kill Harry. Feel free to kill Malfoy. I know it takes some of the edge of writing a Harry/Draco fic, but i, for one, would love to see him getting killed... slowly and in agony. *evil grin*

yael *who will stay in hiding for a while*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Wed Feb 28 08:44:51 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:44:51 +1100
Subject: HIV/AIDS in the wizarding world?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010228194451.007d18e0@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 13164

I was thinking about this, being a slash fan leads to thoughts like this
quite often *g*.

We don't often hear of many illnesses in the wizarding world. Injuries
abound, but not illness. It seems that people are more likely to die from
an attack by Voldemort than from cancer.

So do you think HIV/AIDS would be a concern in the wizarding world, or one
of those muggle problems?

I doubt we'll ever get a canon view on it.

I'd like to believe it's not a concern, but I wonder if that's just because
we *don't* have canon opinions on such things.

Joanne.



From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 13:36:43 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:36:43 -0000
Subject: Envy and Respect/Fudge question.
In-Reply-To: <97hngr+u0u7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97iutb+jer7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13165

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> I thought it was sad, too that Cedric died (and somehow felt I 
should 
> have seen the signs - more later if anyone's interested), but I 
think 
> it was a brilliant decision on JKR's part.  Why?
> 
> Harry was devasted to have lost a Quidditc match in PoA when he was 
at 
> his weakest point - to Cedric.
> He loses the first girl he has a serious crush on - to Cedric
> He is the target of ridicule and ostracism when he is chosen as the 
> fourth champion - because Cedric got there first and honestly.
> 
> JKR is creating a realistic and complicated situation because Harry 
> envied Cedric (rightfully so) for being what Harry (as a typical 14 
> year old) wants to be.  Yet Cedric is a good guy - a really good 
guy, 
> and he dies.  Now Harry is left with the guilt of having not liked 
> Cedric too much when he was alive and having been forced to witness 
> his death.
> 
> Isn't life complicated just like that?  I hope I made sense!

Wow!  Great point!  I hadn't really thought about it, but you're right 
on here.  I was crushed by Cedric's death and had to put the book down 
for a few mintes to compose myself before I could go on.  Looking back 
at it in light of what you've said, I think that while in part it's 
because I liked and admired Cedric, and in part because of the 
cold pragmaticism of it, what you mentioned is a big part of why it 
affected me so.
Not only is Ced a good guy, he's the only one who's consistently 
beaten Harry at things that were important to him.  He felt inadequate 
when he compared himself with Cedric, so when Cedric was killed with 
little more than a flick of the wrist (and by Wormtail, who Harry 
knows to be a sniveling coward)... 
It brings home all the more that Harry's strengths are not, stricktly 
speaking, enough to keep him safe from anything Voldemort might try.  


Dai (I think it was Dai) mentioned something about Fudge, and how 
serious it was that Fudge didn't believe Harry, and that's been 
niggling at me.  Fudge knows that (not)Mad-Eye Moody didn't leave the 
Quidditch pitch during the events of the third task, and he knows that 
Cedric is dead.  If he believes that Crouch was acting alone out of 
his own lunacy, then how does he explain Cedric's death?

kimberly




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 28 13:40:01 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:40:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownUps]  Slightly OT: FF poll
References: <F275Dvv0iP9XGOlaYCK000126d0@hotmail.com> <OE25RGryWtIIZS2TRqf00000580@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A9CFFB0.E564036D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13166

yael oren wrote:

>    A) Who wins the Quidditch Cup, Gryffindor or Slytherin??  I do feel
> bad   taking it from Harry, but doesn't Draco need some attention
> too??

Why not really do something unheard of and have Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff
win it? Why is it always Gryffindor and Slytherin? The only game Harry
lost was to Hufflepuff's team.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 28 13:47:32 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:47:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blond Hair
References: <97ibn0+o6bd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003401c0a18d$00d69f20$5614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13167

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., elysian <elysian at s...> wrote:

> I haven't a clue the page number, but it's canon that Seamus 
Finnigan
has sandy blond hair, and from what we've seen, he's an okay guy. 

elysian --

It is in SS-7, during the sorting ceremony: ""Finnegan, Seamus," the sandy-haired boy next to Harry in the line, sat on the stool for almost a full minute before the hat declared him a Gryffindor.

Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 28 13:51:21 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:51:21 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blond Hair
References: <97hk41+lr6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9D0259.12AA380F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13168

jennifer.k at lycos.com wrote:

> Conclusion: rowling doesn?t like blondes. I am as a representative of
> sweden (the land of happy little blondes) tremendously offended.

Well, judging by the folk of Swedish descent whom I've met, you're
actually from the Land of Great Big Blond People. I have never met a
little Swedish person.

I think you do JKR a disservice as an author, to think she is so remote
and categorical to use such hair color "tags." As I understand the
process--Penny can correct or clarify--an author develops a mental
picture of their character. In many cases, the personality of the
character helps to "build" their appearance in the author's mental view.
It's an organic process, nothing so clinical as, "Hey, we need another
brown-haired person to balance the scene." For most of the characters,
then, I'd imagine their hair color just "felt" right for them to JKR,
with no other overarching plan.

So while the examples of unpleasant blond people in the book may be
evidence of JKR having bad associations with blonds on some level or
other, I really doubt she's using hair color as a marker or clue.
[Exception: there may be some connection with black, untidy hair,
specifically Harry's and Tom Riddle's, but I think that's the only hair
plot connection.]

--Amanda, hoping she made sense, she writes nonfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 28 13:54:55 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:54:55 -0600
Subject: OT--you Brits okay?
Message-ID: <3A9D032F.630245CA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13169

Sorry about the off-topic. Reports of the train crash are burning up the
airwaves over here this morning, so I thought I'd check--everyone on the
list okay? No connections or involvement, I hope.

--Amanda, wasting bandwidth but victim of the "worst case scenario" Mom
mode




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 28 13:58:37 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:58:37 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling is *SASSY*
Message-ID: <97j06d+tjs6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13170

Oh, wait, wrong Jane Pratt era.

JKR was listed in the Feb. issue of JANE Magazine as the "gutsiest 
writer" and here's what JANE readers said about her:
Kara from NC likes them because 'they make my boss happy which keeps 
her off my back' - the rest of the readers "like JK's stuff for more 
selfish reasons, like that it gets millions of kids to read."

Speaking as one of the "bosses who likes HP and when I'm happy I stay 
off people's backs" I want to note that had I bothered to vote in the 
poll, I would've voted for JKR because she gets millions of kids AND 
ADULTS to read : ) and talk : ) and write really long elaborate 
fanfics...




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Wed Feb 28 14:17:17 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:17:17 -0500
Subject: Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC070A@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13171

Jen wrote:

> Actually, I think the portrayal in GoF of Harry's feelings towards Cedric
is actually a little     > more complicated than just this envy/respect
tension (though certainly, both of these 
> elements are present). It seems to me that one of the dominant modes in
which Harry's 
> feelings are presented is the homoerotic.

<snip>

I can certainly see how they could be interpreted in a slash context, but I
respectfully disagree. I think Rowling is trying to give us insight to how
Harry deals with Cho, in light of Cedric. The flip-flopping of his stomach
(and absence of same when turned down) has to do with self-doubt and worry
regarding how he would act with her. It disappears when he realizes that the
question he's screwed up his courage to ask is moot, and he doesn't have to
go through a whole evening of fearing to make a fool of himself in front of
a girl he likes. It's the answer he expected.

Imagine someone you had a crush on in junior high, preferrably someone at
least three years older. When you fantasized about this person, possibly you
were cool, suave, witty, etc. When he/she walked into the room, you
dissolved into incoherent babble. A crush is meant to remain distant; close
up, it gets difficult to bear.

<snip>
> He really seems mostly fine with the idea that he can't go with her, but
perhaps he is 
> feeling relief, a sudden lack/release of tension.

I agree. But for the reasons having to do with Cho, not for any latent
homosexual tendency. He's relieved because now the worry and the doubt are
over.

> But his reaction is intense when he finds out who she is going with:
> "'Oh -- Cedric', she said. 'Cedric Diggory.' 
> "'Oh right', said Harry. 
> "His insides had come back again. It felt as though they had been filled
with lead in their 
> absence. 
> "Completely forgetting about dinner, he walked slowly back up to
Gryffindor Tower, Cho's 
> voice echoing in his ears with every step he took. '*Cedric -- Cedric
Diggory*'. He had
> been starting to quite like Cedric -- prepared to overlook the fact that
he had once beaten 
> him at Quidditch, and was handsome, and popular, and nearly everone's
favorite
> champion. Now he suddenly realized Cedric was in fact a useless pretty boy
who didn't 
> have enough brains to fill an eggcup." (GoF 397f.)
> First, the stomach makes its third appearance as an indicator of H's
emotions; he now 
> feels like he's filled with lead, heavy. This seems to be a more serious
reaction than just 
> being turned down by Cho -- his body has been invaded by a foreign
substance, he's not
> remembering to eat, and he's unable to get Cedric's name out of his head.
One should note > especially that it's not her words of rejection that he
keeps hearing, but the name of his 
> rival.

Absolutely.  It's called jealousy. Not of Cho for going with Cedric, but
Cedric for going with Cho. The fact that Cho's already been asked is one
thing, and easy enough to understand--Harry did leave it awfully late in
asking. But of all people, to go with Cedric, who is already the object of
most of the school's admiration (and remember that the Slytherins started a
campaign to directly compare Cedric with Harry, casting Harry in the
undesirable spot), is a harder blow. Again, purely in terms of literary
criticism, I feel it's realistic that Harry fixates not on Cho herself, but
on the fact of Cedric. As such, it's also reasonable that he sees Cedric as
an object, as indeed, so does the rest of the school.

> The emphasis on Cedric's appearance is rather telling since Harry thinks
of him as not only > "handsome," but as a "pretty boy," both positive
physical attributes which have presumably > caused Cho to desire him. Even
while postionally Cedric is a desiring subject
> in relation to Cho, Harry is casting him as the desired object, replacing
Cedric's subjectivity > with his own. 

I interpreted this as a hyperbolic commentary meant to communicate Harry's
bitterness over the rivalry. He _wanted_ to like Cedric, was most of the way
toward deciding that he's okay, but now there's a girl in the middle. How
many people have had the experience of a bad break-up, only to see one's ex
with someone new soon afterward (before getting over the old relationship)?
How many people were sainted enough NOT to feel some hostility and
exaggerate the inadequacy of the new flame--whether it's a comment on looks,
personality, or fashion sense? It's the same comparison. He's initially
angry and hurt that she chose Cedric over him. It's easier to characterize
Cedric in an unforgiving light.

> This positional ambiguity which the rival-relationship gives rise to is
precisely what makes 
> the scene have homoerotic tensions. Harry continues to emphasize Cedric as
desired 
> object, rather than desiring subject: 
> "'...I bet you just walked past when [Fleur Delacour] was turning on the
old charm for 
> Diggory and got a blast of it -- but she was wasting her time. He's going
with Cho Chang." > (GoF 399)
> Harry is portraying Cedric here as a passive recipient (object) of Fleur's
"charm" (desire), 
> again perceiving him in the role of desired object. Because it is framed
in terms of another's > desire (Fleur's, Cho's), it is not his own, and
therefore acceptable. But the portrayal is not 
> necessarily accurate (other than Harry's, there has been no suggestion
that Fleur was 
> trying to seduce Cedric), and arises from Harry's perception of Cedric as
desirable/ed 
> object, rather than from any 'objective' statement in Ron's account (who
should surely
> have mentioned it were that the case that Fleur desired Cedric, since
Cedric would then be > his rival as well).

Correct again, but bear in mind that Cedric IS an object for the whole
school, not just Harry. It is natural and not necessarily homoerotic to
objectify the rival in this case. Slytherins support Cedric, Cho's dating
Cedric, everybody loves Cedric, so why shouldn't Fleur (the most sexually
attractive girl in the school at the moment) also be going after Cedric?
Harry also ignores (for the moment) the gaggle of girls who follow Krum's
every move and swoon over his autograph, for the purposes of his tirade.
It's bitterness, not sexual desire. 

Also bear in mind that he's making a half-baked attempt to console Ron,
here, and thus the subject of the sentence is rightfully Fleur, not Cedric.
He throws in Cedric's name because he feels like he's being unfairly
compared to him, at every turn. 

> To my mind, this scene more than meets criteria for homoeroticism. 

Again, I think you _could_ interpret it that way, but to do so takes a lot
of work. I think the more obvious explanation is, in this case, the correct
one.

> I've certainly read more obvious scenes in terms of word choice, for
instance, but the 
> insistence with which Harry repeatedly places Cedric (for no necessary
reason) in the 
> position of desired object, rather than rival subject, seems to me
unmistakable. And some > of the word choice even ("pretty boy") does have
homoerotic overtones.

Does Harry need a necessary reason? How about, Cedric's constantly being
held up this year as a paragon of good, an example to emulate? How about,
Cedric's in direct competition with Harry, even "getting the girl." How
about, he's mad at Cedric? How about, he's trying to find something to fault
in Cedric to bolster his own waning self-confidence? And in this case, I
took the term "pretty boy" to be a derogatory statement, not a complimentary
one. 

> I find it especially intersting in light of this dynamic in their
relationship that it was Cedric, 
> and not say Viktor or Fleur, who died...

Here we come to the original question: How did Cedric's death affect you? 

Without putting a homoerotic spin on the relationship, I think the effect of
his death is still poignant when you consider that Harry had just come to
grips with Cedric's worth, that they had reached a compromise, and that they
had just decided that they could share the glory (questions about who gets
Cho aside). His rival in the competition became his ally at the end, and
Cedric is killed for being a bystander, for not getting out of the way.
Personally, I was surprised when he was killed so off-handedly, but I was
not emotionally affected by it until his spectre came out of the wand, and
especially in the aftermath when they return through the portkey. Albus
Dumbledore's speech at the end made me cry, of course, but then I cry for
AT&T and Hallmark commercials, so I'm a marshmallow anyway.

It's also ironic that Cedric's death means Harry will probably never get
Cho. Regardless of how "in love" or "not in love" she was with Cedric (and
personally I think not so much), her feelings toward him will always remain
unresolved. She will not be able to distinguish how she felt before he died
from how she felt when he did not come back, and Harry did. IMO, they will
probably become friends, and maybe down the line lovers, but nothing will
happen on that front for a while.

Hope this doesn't repeat someone else's rehash. 

Gwen



From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 28 14:20:14 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:20:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JK Rowling is *SASSY*
References: <97j06d+tjs6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004301c0a191$922e1f80$5614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13172


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:58 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] JK Rowling is *SASSY*

  Speaking as one of the "bosses who likes HP and when I'm happy I stay off people's backs" I want to note that had I bothered to vote in the poll, I would've voted for JKR because she gets millions of kids AND 
  ADULTS to read : ) and talk : ) and write really long elaborate 
  fanfics...
  My fifteen year old son is in agreement with you, Heidi. When he realized that I had become obsessed with the HP books and was avidly surfing the internet for tidbits related to HP, he commented, "It is nice that you have a hobby". I wonder if he mentally added, "and it keeps you off my back"? *smile*

  He also likes to tease me that "his" copy of GoF is sitting among "my" other three HP books on my shelf. Which makes me wonder how many of you were introduced to HP by your children? Or how did you first get interested in reading HP?

  I was encouraged to read it by my Dutch friend, Nan Gisius.

  Doreen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 28 10:08:28 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:08:28 EST5EDT
Subject: Sotheby's auction
Message-ID: <8FCC7F7292@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13173

They're auctioning off a piece of Harry Potter movie props!!!

http://movieaction.iona.com/iona/unicefproject/auction.html

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign that 
the conspiracy is working.



From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 15:24:26 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:24:26 -0000
Subject: Sherlockian / Potterite overlap?
In-Reply-To: <97hvrq+amcn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97j57a+gbet@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13174

ROFL!! I have been a hardcore Sherlockian ever since I was twelve, and 
joined the Adventuresses of Sherlock Holmes when I was 15!!

I know that annotated well....

And I have mused before about how familiar the discussions in theis 
group feel!

Yours,

Suzanne



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> > You may count me among the Sherlockians here.  Doyle, like 
Rowling, 
> > left many details uncovered and contradictions all through his 
> text. 
> > Seventy years or so of Sherlockian scholarship hasn't settled 
much. 
> > My "Annotated Sherlock Holmes" is about three inches thick. It's 
> > going to be the same with Harry; it already is.
> 
> Will it surprise anyone to know that I am also a Sherlockian? And I 
> have a copy of that same, three-inch-thick annotated Sherlock Holmes 
> sitting right here on my desk next to my HP and reference books. 
> 
> And will it surprise anyone to know that I DREAM of being asked by 
> Scholastic to write the Annotated Harry Potter? 
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 28 15:24:37 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:24:37 -0000
Subject: The Movie Trailer - a synopsis
Message-ID: <97j57l+oc59@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13175

Go to 
http://www.countingdown.com/movies/harrypotter/movieinfo/production?
item_id=12498 to find it - there are spoilers for the trailer & the 
movie in there, so go at your own risk.

It sounds like the trailer will be available online tomorrow - 
countingdown says they will have it on thursday at 9am PST - so are 
we going to crash their servers tomorrow?

Anyone who is afraid of getting a lot of mail might want to set 
themselves to Web Only for the day tomorrow, because I have a feeling 
the number of posts will skyrocket for a bit




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 15:30:12 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:30:12 -0000
Subject: Harry's hair (was: Re: Hello/questions/casting Cate Blanchett & others)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010228013422.007d32f0@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <97j5i4+beq6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13176

Joanne Collins <joannec at l...> wrote:

>I was thinking dark brown, and I get it from the picture on the 
>cover of GoF. It looks brown there.

Forget the grinning imbecile on the cover, he's not Harry Potter, 
he's an imposter and not a very good one either. Rowling had
nothing to do with the cover or the brainless looking jerk
depicted there.     










From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Feb 28 15:44:42 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:44:42 -0800
Subject: redux: Professors - Cedric - Wand Order
Message-ID: <3A9D1CE9.45D46F18@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13177

I had got up to msg 13128 out of 13170 when egroups went down.

We are not shown the Hogwarts professors having spouses or children.
That doesn't have to mean that ALL of them are single and childless.  A
number of them are old enough to have children who are grown up; in
fact, a woman of 70 (McGonagall's age) could have become a mother at 20,
a grandma at 40, and a great-grandma at 60. I don't think McGonagall and
Hooch have had children --- remember that I am convinced that Minnie and
Hoochie have been a couple since they were in their early 20s. But I
suspect that Pomfrey is a grandma or great-grandma, whose husband may
still be alive but out travelling, so she spends only summers with him,
and it's not impossible that she has something going on with Dumbledore
during the school year.  As for Dumbledore, he is 150 -- if he had
married young, he could have outlived not only his spouse, but his
children and grandchildren. I believe that he really did see himself
holding warm socks in the Mirror of Erised, but they were specifically
the horrible socks that his late wife knitted for him as Xmas present
every year.  Are any of the professors besides Snape and DADA teachers
young enough that any children they might have must still be young 'uns?

I cried over Cedric's death. Such a nice guy. Such a *useless* death.
Such disrespect. It was at least as upsetting to me as the rather
effective horror of the spell scene.

We *all* believed that James coming out of the wand first was
intentional, and then somewhere around 9th to 12th printing of GoF, the
scene was clumsily changed to Lily coming out first, and Nick in this
group  wrote to JKR, who responded that the originally printed James was
just a mistake and the new version is correct. This group had  invented
so many other explanations! Here are a few: 1) Harry's innate magic
power and very strong desire to see his father had overridden the usual
effect of Priori Incantatem. 2) It wasn't really James, it was Harry
himself (who had been mistaken for James already in PoA) and represented
the Avada Kedavra that V had cast on H that rebounded on him. 3) The
voice that said "Take  Harry and run" was not actually James', but one
of the grandfathers, who was killed before Lily. When V caught up with
Lily and cursed her, she tossed Harry to James rather than trying to
dodge the curse. After further pursuit, V caught up with James, killed
him, and tried to kill Harry. V's statement that "I killed your mother
first" was a lie. V is not above lying!

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Feb 28 16:03:30 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:03:30 -0000
Subject: Stouffer lawsuit:  New Muggle Sighting
Message-ID: <97j7gi+7p73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13178

Here's another published use of the word "Muggle" that I haven't seen 
before: "Stinker Muggles and the Dazzle Bug" by Elizabeth Laird, 
Susan Hellard (Illustrator).
Paperback - 64 pages (10 April, 1995) Collins; ISBN: 0006750109

At Amazon.UK:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006750109/459/026-0936726-
9743625

Cover art:
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0006750109.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

-Jim Flanagan






From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Feb 28 16:02:33 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:02:33 -0000
Subject: Slightly OT: FF poll
In-Reply-To: <F275Dvv0iP9XGOlaYCK000126d0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97j7ep+3b1g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13179

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at h...> 
wrote:
> Ok, I am writing a fan fic in Draco/Harry et alls 6th year.  Draco
> is my main character.  But I have some questions I needed to ask a
> large audience, so if you guys wanna answer....
> A) Who wins the Quidditch Cup, Gryffindor or Slytherin??  I do feel
> bad taking it from Harry, but doesn't Draco need some attention
> too??

(egroups came up again, altho' I should be leaving for work)

I have sixth year Draco saying: "Last year I won every match I 
played, Slytherin 150 to Gryffindor 140, but that Potter walked away 
with the Quidditch Cup on the points his Chasers racked up 
against Hufflepuff, and thumbed his nose at me." (Obviously, I see 
them both as Captain of their team, but Draco has not been blessed 
with Chasers or Keeper HALF as good as Harry's.)   




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Feb 28 16:26:18 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:26:18 -0000
Subject: steve - the thief is back
Message-ID: <97j8ra+m7jb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13180

http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/index.fic?action=story-
read&storyid=218942 - she claims "It deleted my other one!! Some 
people say i copied this from another site, I DID NOT!! I have been 
working on it for a month so please say i did because I DIDN'T!!!!!"




From niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 28 16:25:39 2001
From: niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk (niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:25:39 -0000
Subject: OT--you Brits okay?
In-Reply-To: <3A9D032F.630245CA@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97j8q3+scoi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13181

Thanks for your concern Amanda, the crash was in up north and as of 
now at least twelve people are dead, which is really sad. Its come at 
a particuarly bad time for our islands we are currently in the middle 
of a foot and mouth crisis which is causing, worry and panic. A farm 
close to me had an outbreak and yesterday you could smell the results 
of livestock burning. It was horrid, on top of that the weather has 
turned nasty and scotland is under snow drifts and some folks are 
without power.its raining and sleeting in London and you can feel the 
gloom all around. I love reading the posts here though because they 
offer a good escape. The lemon sherbet topic was great and made me 
smile. A couple of months ago I was sucking one during a very 
important meeting and at the wrong moment I hit the centre and the 
sherbert shot straight down my throat and nearly choked me! yummy!!!
regards Niamh




From ehsmith1 at juno.com  Wed Feb 28 16:34:46 2001
From: ehsmith1 at juno.com (Erica H Smith)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:34:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Envy and Respect/Fudge question.
Message-ID: <20010228.113449.-188247.0.ehsmith1@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13182

Kimberly wrote:

>Fudge knows that (not)Mad-Eye Moody didn't leave the 
>Quidditch pitch during the events of the third task, and he knows that 
>Cedric is dead.  If he believes that Crouch was acting alone out of 
>his own lunacy, then how does he explain Cedric's death?

If he's attempted to explain it at all, he thinks Harry killed him.  He's
been reading Rita Skeeter, remember.

Erica
newbie and intending to mostly lurk...



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 17:08:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:08:25 -0000
Subject: Fudge question
In-Reply-To: <97iutb+jer7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97jba9+9qce@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13183

Kimberly wrote:


> Dai (I think it was Dai) mentioned something about Fudge, and how 
> serious it was that Fudge didn't believe Harry, and that's been 
> niggling at me.  Fudge knows that (not)Mad-Eye Moody didn't leave 
the 
> Quidditch pitch during the events of the third task, and he knows 
that 
> Cedric is dead.  If he believes that Crouch was acting alone out of 
> his own lunacy, then how does he explain Cedric's death?

Once he hears the story of the whole evening, he can explain it by 
saying Crouch must've killed him the same way he Stunned Fleur and 
put the Imperius on Krum:  looked through the hedges and hit him with 
AK.

Right now (i.e. as of "The Parting of the Ways"), Fudge doesn't even 
know the full story told by Crouch and Harry, so he isn't using 
reason or coming up with plausible explanations of how Cedric died.  
He's just believing what he wants to believe.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 "Before we begin our banquet, I would like 
 to say a few words.  And here they are: 
 Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
            --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------------




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Wed Feb 28 17:22:26 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:22:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC070A@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102281047320.24113-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13184

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Hillman, Lee wrote:


> I can certainly see how they could be interpreted in a slash context, but I
> respectfully disagree. 

Not to quibble, but as I stated before, my reading here really is
unrelated to slash.  (And believe me, I'm not surprised that people are
going to disagree with me on this!)

> I agree. But for the reasons having to do with Cho, not for any latent
> homosexual tendency. He's relieved because now the worry and the doubt are
> over.

Possibly.  I think you can read his relief either way.  But the
important point is that he does feel relief at the refusal, which
contrasts with his intense reaction when finding out that it's Cedric
she's going with.  I was merely trying to establish here that the
refusal on its own did not create the intense emotion.

> Absolutely.  It's called jealousy. 

Oh, quite.  The rivalry between Harry and Cedric is the core of my
reading.  I'm not making an argument, though one could, I think, that
Harry's feelings for Cho are a result of transferring his feelings for
Cedric onto her.  Instead, I'm focusing on the nature of the
rival-relationship itself as tinged with eroticism.  But rivals *must*
be jealous of one another.

> Not of Cho for going with Cedric, but Cedric for going with Cho.

But, I would argue, it's not so simple as that.  Harry is certainly
jealous that Cedric, and not he, is going with Cho.  I wouldn't deny
that.  However, (love) triangles are funny structures, because by their
nature they set up a connection between the two rivals, mediated through
the presence of the beloved.  And since Harry repeatedly casts Cedric in
the role of desired object, I get a distinct sense from the text that
Harry's desire is moving (though not consciously) towards both.  Nor
would I say that Harry is necessarily jealous of Cho.  I see no
evidence of that in the text; mostly he's emotionally uninvested in her
following her refusal.  However, his emotional reactions to Cedric
continue.  But I'm definitely not positing any sort of situation where
his 'real feelings' are the inverse of what he believes he is feeling
(reaction-formation).

> But of all people, to go with Cedric, who is already the object of
> most of the school's admiration (and remember that the Slytherins started a
> campaign to directly compare Cedric with Harry, casting Harry in the
> undesirable spot), is a harder blow. Again, purely in terms of literary
> criticism, I feel it's realistic that Harry fixates not on Cho herself, but
> on the fact of Cedric. 

Yes, Harry has good reasons to be rivals with Cedric, in addition to
their competition for Cho, which I interpret as strengthening my
reading.

> As such, it's also reasonable that he sees Cedric as an object, as
> indeed, so does the rest of the school.

When I say that H. 'sees Cedric as an object', I'm speaking specifically
of H. casting Cedric as an object of others' *desire*.  I would question
the reasonability of that outside of a context of H's own (unexpressed)
desire, and I certainly don't remember anyone else in the text casting
Cedric in that light.

> I interpreted this [H's comments on Ce.'s appearance] as a
> hyperbolic commentary meant to communicate Harry's bitterness over
> the rivalry. 

Hyperbolic?  In what sense?  Is there textual evidence elsewhere that
Ce. is *not* good-looking?  He isn't, to my mind, exaggerating a
negative characteristic of his rival, as he would be if, say, he had
thought: "How can she go out with Cedric?  He's the ugliest person ever
-- Swamp Thing's got it all over him!  His hair looks like straw and his
nose is too big and he hulks when he walks!" :) He isn't questioning the
fitness of Cho's choice at first -- he acknowledges openly Cedric's good
(*desirable*) qualities: skill at Quidditch, good looks, popularity.  
The basis on which he does question her choice is Cedric's intelligence,
not his looks: "Now he suddenly realized Cedric was in fact a useless
pretty boy who didn't have enough brains to fill an eggcup" (GoF 398).  
The hyperbole is in regard to Cedric's stupidity (though there may
indeed be a co-extensive inflation of his good looks).  But his looks
are among the givens about Cedric for Harry.

This passage, in my view, *is* a homoerotic one, because Harry is
viewing Cedric (though it is troped through the guise of Cho's
subjectivity) as an object of erotic desire.

> Correct again, but bear in mind that Cedric IS an object for the whole
> school, not just Harry. 

Again, I'm not sure where in the text this perception is coming from.  I
don't see any evidence that the whole school is treating Cedric as an
object of desire?

> It is natural and not necessarily homoerotic to objectify the rival
> in this case. 

I quite agree that it's natural to place the rival in the position of
desired object.  However, I also see it as natural and unavoidable for
the very act of viewing the rival as an object of desire to be by
definition an erotic act.

> Slytherins support Cedric, Cho's dating Cedric, everybody loves
> Cedric, so why shouldn't Fleur (the most sexually attractive girl in
> the school at the moment) also be going after Cedric?

Indeed, there is no reason she shouldn't -- but neither did Ron say
anything about Cedric.  Harry's forcing him into the scene described
because of his own fixation.  This perception that Cedric is the most
desirable/ed object comes from Harry, not from outside.

> It's bitterness, not sexual desire.

The two are not mutally exclusive (and bear in mind that the erotic and
the sexual are distinct, though related).

> Also bear in mind that he's making a half-baked attempt to console Ron,
> here, and thus the subject of the sentence is rightfully Fleur, not Cedric.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that?  Harry has almost completely
elided Cedric's subjectivity, and in his conversation with Ron, he is
(once again) positioning Cedric as desired object, mediated in this
instance through Fleur's subjectivity rather than Cho's.  (And really,
I'm not sure to what extent, if at all, his words can be said to have
any type of consoling effect intended.)

> He throws in Cedric's name because he feels like he's being unfairly
> compared to him, at every turn. 

That's certainly part of the reason, yes.  But the *context* in which he
throws in Cedric's name is a homoerotic one, in that Harry is viewing
Cedric as an object of (Cho's, Fleur's -- his) desire.

> Again, I think you _could_ interpret it that way, but to do so takes a lot
> of work. I think the more obvious explanation is, in this case, the correct
> one.

You know, it often seems in lit crit that exactly the opposite of
Occam's razor applies: the more convoluted a reading, the more
persuasive the argument for it. *g*  But really, I don't think this is a
particularly labored reading of the passages in question -- I think it
is easily defensible that Harry is viewing Cedric as an object of
desire.  And to my mind, this reading is not in conflict with the more
obvious one that Harry is jealous of Cedric, but a layering of it, a
complication of it.

> Does Harry need a necessary reason? How about, Cedric's constantly being
> held up this year as a paragon of good, an example to emulate? 

The context here, however, is not of a competition with Cedric's
behavior, but using Cedric as a paradigm for an object of desire -- so,
yes, I think Harry needs some sort of reason for doing so.  No one else
is constantly holding up Cedric as a paragon of desirability.

> How about, Cedric's in direct competition with Harry, even "getting
> the girl." How about, he's mad at Cedric? How about, he's trying to
> find something to fault in Cedric to bolster his own waning
> self-confidence? 

All *additional* reasons, yes, that don't negate the homoerotic ones.

> And in this case, I took the term "pretty boy" to be a derogatory
> statement, not a complimentary one.

Indeed, I take it as such also.  In fact, I think the phrase is really a
particularly telling word choice.  The term 'pretty boy' carries with
it, I would say, an entire register of meaning to do with effeminacy and
passivity that easily shades over into the homoerotic -- and is almost
invariably cast as negative.  The term implies a (threat of) loss of
masculinity because the person it is applied to is then automatically
placed in the position of desired object, the 'feminine' position.  By
nature of its meaning, it implies a positive valuation of the person's
looks (they are 'pretty'), but that very valuation is then, inevitably,
a negative thing, because it brings with it effective castration.  A
very negative term, but in the context I don't see how it can but be
homoerotic.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.


 








From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 17:27:45 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:27:45 -0000
Subject: Harry and Cedric - Chapter 32 - Blond Hair - Cat/Rat/Dog - Annotated HP 
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC070A@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <97jceh+n8s9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13185

Jen wrote:

>Now there's no real reason for Harry to be completely shocked beyond
>belief at the news that she's going with someone else, so that
>'numbness' which the lack of 'insides' suggests shouldn't be from
>absolute shock.  He really seems mostly fine with the idea that he
>can't go with her, but perhaps he is feeling relief, a sudden
>lack/release of tension.

>But his reaction is intense when he finds out who she is going with:

I'm going to disagree with both Jen and Gwen on the idea that "lack of 
insides"=relief.  Jen, your phrasing suggests that feeling like your 
insides are gone is not an intense reaction.  My reading, based on 
life with my own stomach, is that of the three gut-expressions we see 
in this scene (writhing, emptiness, heaviness), emptiness is the 
worst.  I think Jo would signal relief very differently.  I know I 
would.  But everyone has his/her own stomach...

Gwen wrote:
> 
> Here we come to the original question: How did Cedric's death affect 
you? 

<big snip>

>I was
> not emotionally affected by it until his spectre came out of the 
wand, and
> especially in the aftermath when they return through the portkey. 

If you wanted to make a homoerotic argument, you could focus on the 
return portkey trip and particularly Harry's clinging to Cedric's body 
as if it's the most important thing in his world.  I wouldn't take 
this homoerotically, but you could.  I did find that scene (Harry 
lying on the ground outside the maze, refusing to let go of Cedric) 
one of the most moving scenes in the canon, and more than anything it 
was what made Cedric's death hit me.

Re: Ch. 32:  Did anyone else wonder about the significance of the 
potion turning blue, then white, then red?  Is this an antipatriotic 
statement on Jo's part?

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

>I thought it was sad, too that Cedric died (and somehow felt I should 
>have seen the signs - more later if anyone's interested)

I am--tell!

Jennifer observed about HP blonds:

>They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid (Gyllenroy, Fleur) 
>or misguided (Crouch Jr). 

>Conclusion: rowling doesn?t like blondes. 

One can never be sure of these things, but my impression from photos 
is that Jo's hair is naturally red and she's taken to dyeing it blond. 
 Which suggests that her attitude toward blond hair is something of a 
love/hate thing.  <g>  I strongly disagree with the characterization 
of Fleur as stupid.  She is vain, which fits another blond stereotype, 
but not stupid.  Not only is she a champion, but let's remember that 
the Triwizard Tournament is not played fair; Crouch cheats on behalf 
of both Cedric and Harry.  Fleur might have won if she weren't Stunned 
by Crouch.  For that matter, maybe she'd have had time to study up on 
grindylows if someone had given *her* a hint about the egg early on.

Cat/Rat/Dog doggerel:  I thought of this immediately when I got to 
that chapter title, and my impression was that most anyone in England 
would do the same--am I right?  Is the Cat/Rat/Dog quatrain one of 
those things that everyone knows from school, the way USians know 
"Dewey Defeats Truman"?  Or is it obscure?

Steve wrote:

>And will it surprise anyone to know that I DREAM of being asked by 
>Scholastic to write the Annotated Harry Potter? 

I dream of your being asked to write it too!  I wonder if it would 
help if we wrote letters recommending you?  

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
Asleep was the way Harry liked the Dursleys best.
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 17:54:11 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:54:11 -0000
Subject: Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102281047320.24113-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <97je03+esn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13186

Gwen wrote:
> 
> > I interpreted this [H's comments on Ce.'s appearance] as a
> > hyperbolic commentary meant to communicate Harry's bitterness over
> > the rivalry. 

Jen replied:

> Hyperbolic?  In what sense?  Is there textual evidence elsewhere 
> that
> Ce. is *not* good-looking?  He isn't, to my mind, exaggerating a
> negative characteristic of his rival, as he would be if, say, he had
> thought: "How can she go out with Cedric?  He's the ugliest person 
ever
> -- Swamp Thing's got it all over him!  His hair looks like straw and 
his
> nose is too big and he hulks when he walks!" :) He isn't questioning 
the
> fitness of Cho's choice at first -- he acknowledges openly Cedric's 
good
> (*desirable*) qualities: skill at Quidditch, good looks, popularity. 
 
> The basis on which he does question her choice is Cedric's 
intelligence,
> not his looks: "Now he suddenly realized Cedric was in fact a 
useless
> pretty boy who didn't have enough brains to fill an eggcup" (GoF 
398).  
> The hyperbole is in regard to Cedric's stupidity (though there may
> indeed be a co-extensive inflation of his good looks).  But his 
looks
> are among the givens about Cedric for Harry.

The problem with this analysis is that it ignores the double-edged 
value of good looks.  Being extremely good-looking is not entirely 
positive; it carries the liability of stupidity in and of itself.  
This is particularly true for women, who, if they are "too" 
good-looking, are assumed to be unintelligent.  It is true also, 
though to a lesser extent, for men.  The term "pretty boy" (when the 
emphasis is put on the word pretty rather than on boy) in fact 
connotes "handsome but with nothing upstairs."  It suggests 
shallowness of character also.  (What's the criticism of TV anchors?  
They got their jobs because they have looks, and they don't seem to 
have anything else.  Can't say I disagree...)

Cedric is already seen this way by his Quidditch rivals, as seen in PA 
when Wood announces they'll be playing Hufflepuff.  The girls 
mock-swoon; the twins say he's an idiot.  There's a causal 
relationship there (there is in fact no evidence that Cedric is 
unintelligent): not only are the twins irritated that girls think he's 
so damn attractive, but the very fact that he's good-looking makes 
them judge him stupid.

If you want to insult someone who is good-looking, you could call him 
ugly, but it would ring hollow (especially with someone like Cedric, 
who seems to be universally regarded as very good-looking).  It's much 
more wounding to call him a pretty boy--to use his looks to insult his 
intelligence.

Gwen wrote:

> > Correct again, but bear in mind that Cedric IS an object for the 
whole
> > school, not just Harry. 

Jen wrote:
 
> Again, I'm not sure where in the text this perception is coming 
from.  I
> don't see any evidence that the whole school is treating Cedric as 
an
> object of desire?

Girls follow him around as much as they do Viktor Krum; people wear 
"Support Cedric Diggory" badges (is this treating someone as an object 
of desire?  My lit-crit jargon is rusty); he is the stand-in for all 
Hufflepuffs in their usually-thwarted dreams of glory.  He is their 
champion.

One more point in *support* of the homoerotic interpretation:  we hear 
a few times that Cedric is extremely good-looking, not from others, 
but from our Harry-oriented narrator.  So we are getting that opinion 
from Harry's POV.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion
by turning into a large canary.
                  --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 18:41:52 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:41:52 -0000
Subject: Movie dialogue (FF)
Message-ID: <97jgpg+8udr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13187

Damn it all, I only know one line from the movie and I dislike it.  
Grrr.

I'll give a spoiler space for those who want to come to the teaser 
trailer without preconceptions!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
www.countingdown.com reports that the one line of dialogue in the 
teaser trailer is Hagrid saying, "Harry, you're the boy that lived!"  
I have a pet peeve about this line.  Don't ask me to explain it 
rationally, but it has to do with the fact that fans (e.g. writers, 
and presumably readers, of fanfic) are WAY more enamored of the whole 
"Boy Who Lived" thing than Jo herself seems to be.  It shows up once 
in the books, and if it survives beyond the first few days of 
celebration after Voldemort's fall, we see no evidence of it.  Yes, 
JKR makes it the title of the first chapter, so she must like it (it 
does, after all, sum up what is astonishing about Harry), but she 
doesn't use it again--Hermione doesn't say upon meeting him, "I know 
you, you're The Boy Who Lived," or any of that.  It seems right as a 
toast during all the celebration; as a repeated phrase, it seems 
stilted.

In fanfic it's everywhere.  I'm not sure why people seize on this 
phrase, but in my mind it says little about Harry that I care about, 
and just has the ring of a slogan, which is the closest I can come to 
explaining why I dislike the emphasis on it.  In fanfic it tends to 
give me the feeling that the authors are trying to crowbar their way 
into familiarity with this world (like when they say 50 times a page 
that Ron's hair is flaming red), when if they truly felt at home 
there, they'd pick up on something more subtle.

Sigh...

Amy Z  

------------------------------------------------
  "Cool, sir!" said Dean Thomas in amazement.
  "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin.
                -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Wed Feb 28 18:41:52 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:41:52 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEDCCAAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 13188


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carole Estes [mailto:lrcjestes at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:05 AM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood

> 1.  When Peter Pettigrew is serving the dark lord is he
> always called
> wormtail?  As if his name was changed once he went over to
> the dark side.

I think Voldy calls him Wormtail because he sees nothing
but a rat in him. He will probably kill him as soon as he
has no more use for him, which would be too bad for
Sirius, since he needs him to clear his name...

> Do the other Death Eaters know who Wormtail is?

Some of them must have known it, but maybe not those
we know by their names.

> 2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or
> vital to the plot
> and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?

I think it was completely gratuitous. And no, I confess that I
wasn't that much upset about it. It bothered me because it
was an unnecessary death that illustrated both Voldemort's
and Wormtail's ruthlessness, but I wasn't really upset. I
think I was too afraid that Sirius would die at the end of the
book, so it was a minor issue to me...

> 3.  Why didn't Wormtail bleed to death after he cut off his arm?

Good question, I never gave it a thought. Maybe he put some
spell on his hand we didn't see or hear. I think this was the
most gruesome scene in the whole book, it made me shudder
and I didn't care about the pesky little detail that he should
have bled to death...

> In answer to the last question, this chapter was the only chapter I
> paraphrased to my 7 yo when we read this book.  My next
> email has the
> version of this chapter I read to him.

This was really hilarious. I have just looked at the picture of
squidward in the file section and it made me laugh out loud!

> For an
> unabridged interpretation of Sirius' character you can
> always read the
> fanfic I'm writing with Penny, "A Sirius Affair" (just
> thought I'd slip that
> in there...hehehehehhehe)

I have to support this, it's really a wonderful story, so if you
haven't already read it, go ahead and read it!

Monika



Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html




From katie at vquill.com  Wed Feb 28 18:36:47 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:36:47 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102281047320.24113-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>
References: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC070A@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010228103424.00a34a90@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13189

At 12:22 PM 2/28/01 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Indeed, I take it as such also.  In fact, I think the phrase is really a
>particularly telling word choice.  The term 'pretty boy' carries with
>it, I would say, an entire register of meaning to do with effeminacy and
>passivity that easily shades over into the homoerotic -- and is almost
>invariably cast as negative.
>--jen :)


I have to say, I don't agree with your reading. ;)

But I have a question for you: if the genders of everyone were switched -- 
Harry-ette is thinking mean thoughts about Cedric-ette because she's going 
to the dance with Mr. Cho.... would you consider the scene homoerotic? ;)

-Katie







From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Wed Feb 28 21:23:44 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:23:44 -0000
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <005101c0a12a$49c32cc0$6154d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97jq90+clds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13190

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> All right, gang.  Here is the version of this chapter that I told 
to my 7yo.
> 
> Voldemort has been existing in a body kind of like squidward, with 
snake head (for those unfamiliar with the TV show Sponge Bob Square 
Pants, I've posted a pic of squidward in the files...link provided 
below.)   

<snip of the amended version>

> By this time my 7yo was laughing hysterically at the thought of V as
> squidward. I suppose he will never quite see V as all that scary 
from here on in...but we did avoid nighmares from it, so it was 
effective.<<

And now that I've seen the picture myself, I may join him in the 
ranks of not taking Voldy seriously again!  Great amended synopsis, 
Carole.  I'm sure it will come in handy for those who may need such 
things.  

Trina




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Feb 28 21:47:20 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:47:20 -0600
Subject: wand error ... revised copy 
Message-ID: <005f01c0a1d0$0d6a1760$8614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13191

ok just call me stupid or blonde or both ... I have followed the links and then some. All I have come up with is the copy of the error version of the wand, not the corrected version. Can someone kindly send me the exact url of that page? My email address is nera at rconnect.com 

I would like to have both copies for reference sake. Both letters in the list archives lead to the error page, not the corrected version.\

Doreen who is still looking but not finding




"Shan't say nothing if you don't say, please," said Peeves in his annoying singsong voice. 
"All right --- please."
"NOTHING! Ha ha! Haaaaaa!"
Peeves the Poltergeist, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Wed Feb 28 22:59:28 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:59:28 -0000
Subject: Movie Trailer on Newsround
Message-ID: <97jvsg+fsf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13192

I haven't seen this mentioned here, so I thought I'd delurk to let 
you know! 

My mother just told me that they're going to show scenes from the 
Harry Potter trailer on Newsround tomorrow (Thursday 1st March, 
5.25pm).

(For those non-UK people among us, Newsround is a children's news 
program which is broadcast on weekdays in the UK on BBC1.)

For more information check out their website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/news/hpmovie4.shtml

Gaynor

 




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Wed Feb 28 23:01:00 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:01:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT--you Brits okay?
In-Reply-To: <97j8q3+scoi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFCELFCCAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13193

It was sad to hear and read about that tragic story. I and my husband caught
it this morning as a news flash ion our web page. Glad that the Harry Potter
posts lifted your spirits and others I hope. Our thoughts will be with  all
those families who lost someone. The rest of your post really made us have a
reality check! We don't always get the full impact as to what happens with
that livestock problem. Sorry for going on with this OT but even we are
worried about all of you over there. Please keep us informed OT of course.
>From other HP friends to all of you in Britain, Roy and Wanda

-----Original Message-----
From: niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk [mailto:niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 11:26 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT--you Brits okay?


Thanks for your concern Amanda, the crash was in up north and as of
now at least twelve people are dead, which is really sad. Its come at
a particuarly bad time for our islands we are currently in the middle
of a foot and mouth crisis which is causing, worry and panic. A farm
close to me had an outbreak and yesterday you could smell the results
of livestock burning. It was horrid, on top of that the weather has
turned nasty and scotland is under snow drifts and some folks are
without power.its raining and sleeting in London and you can feel the
gloom all around. I love reading the posts here though because they
offer a good escape. The lemon sherbet topic was great and made me
smile. A couple of months ago I was sucking one during a very
important meeting and at the wrong moment I hit the centre and the
sherbert shot straight down my throat and nearly choked me! yummy!!!
regards Niamh


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From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Wed Feb 28 23:13:55 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:13:55 -0000
Subject: Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102281047320.24113-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <97k0nj+39nn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13194

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at e...> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Hillman, Lee wrote:
> 
> 
> > I can certainly see how they could be interpreted in a slash 
context, but I
> > respectfully disagree. 
> 
> Not to quibble, but as I stated before, my reading here really is
> unrelated to slash.  (And believe me, I'm not surprised that people 
are
> going to disagree with me on this!)
> 
> > I agree. But for the reasons having to do with Cho, not for any 
latent
> > homosexual tendency. He's relieved because now the worry and the 
doubt are
> > over.
> 
> Possibly.  I think you can read his relief either way.  But the
> important point is that he does feel relief at the refusal, which
> contrasts with his intense reaction when finding out that it's 
Cedric
> she's going with.  I was merely trying to establish here that the
> refusal on its own did not create the intense emotion.
> 
> > Absolutely.  It's called jealousy. 
> 
> Oh, quite.  The rivalry between Harry and Cedric is the core of my
> reading.  I'm not making an argument, though one could, I think, 
that
> Harry's feelings for Cho are a result of transferring his feelings 
for
> Cedric onto her.  Instead, I'm focusing on the nature of the
> rival-relationship itself as tinged with eroticism.  But rivals 
*must*
> be jealous of one another.
> 
> > Not of Cho for going with Cedric, but Cedric for going with Cho.
> 
> But, I would argue, it's not so simple as that.  Harry is certainly
> jealous that Cedric, and not he, is going with Cho.  I wouldn't deny
> that.  However, (love) triangles are funny structures, because by 
their
> nature they set up a connection between the two rivals, mediated 
through
> the presence of the beloved.  And since Harry repeatedly casts 
Cedric in
> the role of desired object, I get a distinct sense from the text 
that
> Harry's desire is moving (though not consciously) towards both.  Nor
> would I say that Harry is necessarily jealous of Cho.  I see no
> evidence of that in the text; mostly he's emotionally uninvested in 
her
> following her refusal.  However, his emotional reactions to Cedric
> continue.  But I'm definitely not positing any sort of situation 
where
> his 'real feelings' are the inverse of what he believes he is 
feeling
> (reaction-formation).
> 
> > But of all people, to go with Cedric, who is already the object of
> > most of the school's admiration (and remember that the Slytherins 
started a
> > campaign to directly compare Cedric with Harry, casting Harry in 
the
> > undesirable spot), is a harder blow. Again, purely in terms of 
literary
> > criticism, I feel it's realistic that Harry fixates not on Cho 
herself, but
> > on the fact of Cedric. 
> 
> Yes, Harry has good reasons to be rivals with Cedric, in addition to
> their competition for Cho, which I interpret as strengthening my
> reading.
> 
> > As such, it's also reasonable that he sees Cedric as an object, as
> > indeed, so does the rest of the school.
> 
> When I say that H. 'sees Cedric as an object', I'm speaking 
specifically
> of H. casting Cedric as an object of others' *desire*.  I would 
question
> the reasonability of that outside of a context of H's own 
(unexpressed)
> desire, and I certainly don't remember anyone else in the text 
casting
> Cedric in that light.
> 
> > I interpreted this [H's comments on Ce.'s appearance] as a
> > hyperbolic commentary meant to communicate Harry's bitterness over
> > the rivalry. 
> 
> Hyperbolic?  In what sense?  Is there textual evidence elsewhere 
that
> Ce. is *not* good-looking?  He isn't, to my mind, exaggerating a
> negative characteristic of his rival, as he would be if, say, he had
> thought: "How can she go out with Cedric?  He's the ugliest person 
ever
> -- Swamp Thing's got it all over him!  His hair looks like straw 
and his
> nose is too big and he hulks when he walks!" :) He isn't 
questioning the
> fitness of Cho's choice at first -- he acknowledges openly Cedric's 
good
> (*desirable*) qualities: skill at Quidditch, good looks, 
popularity.  
> The basis on which he does question her choice is Cedric's 
intelligence,
> not his looks: "Now he suddenly realized Cedric was in fact a 
useless
> pretty boy who didn't have enough brains to fill an eggcup" (GoF 
398).  
> The hyperbole is in regard to Cedric's stupidity (though there may
> indeed be a co-extensive inflation of his good looks).  But his 
looks
> are among the givens about Cedric for Harry.
> 
> This passage, in my view, *is* a homoerotic one, because Harry is
> viewing Cedric (though it is troped through the guise of Cho's
> subjectivity) as an object of erotic desire.
> 
> > Correct again, but bear in mind that Cedric IS an object for the 
whole
> > school, not just Harry. 
> 
> Again, I'm not sure where in the text this perception is coming 
from.  I
> don't see any evidence that the whole school is treating Cedric as 
an
> object of desire?
> 
> > It is natural and not necessarily homoerotic to objectify the 
rival
> > in this case. 
> 
> I quite agree that it's natural to place the rival in the position 
of
> desired object.  However, I also see it as natural and unavoidable 
for
> the very act of viewing the rival as an object of desire to be by
> definition an erotic act.
> 
> > Slytherins support Cedric, Cho's dating Cedric, everybody loves
> > Cedric, so why shouldn't Fleur (the most sexually attractive girl 
in
> > the school at the moment) also be going after Cedric?
> 
> Indeed, there is no reason she shouldn't -- but neither did Ron say
> anything about Cedric.  Harry's forcing him into the scene described
> because of his own fixation.  This perception that Cedric is the 
most
> desirable/ed object comes from Harry, not from outside.
> 
> > It's bitterness, not sexual desire.
> 
> The two are not mutally exclusive (and bear in mind that the erotic 
and
> the sexual are distinct, though related).
> 
> > Also bear in mind that he's making a half-baked attempt to 
console Ron,
> > here, and thus the subject of the sentence is rightfully Fleur, 
not Cedric.
> 
> I'm not really sure what you mean by that?  Harry has almost 
completely
> elided Cedric's subjectivity, and in his conversation with Ron, he 
is
> (once again) positioning Cedric as desired object, mediated in this
> instance through Fleur's subjectivity rather than Cho's.  (And 
really,
> I'm not sure to what extent, if at all, his words can be said to 
have
> any type of consoling effect intended.)
> 
> > He throws in Cedric's name because he feels like he's being 
unfairly
> > compared to him, at every turn. 
> 
> That's certainly part of the reason, yes.  But the *context* in 
which he
> throws in Cedric's name is a homoerotic one, in that Harry is 
viewing
> Cedric as an object of (Cho's, Fleur's -- his) desire.
> 
> > Again, I think you _could_ interpret it that way, but to do so 
takes a lot
> > of work. I think the more obvious explanation is, in this case, 
the correct
> > one.
> 
> You know, it often seems in lit crit that exactly the opposite of
> Occam's razor applies: the more convoluted a reading, the more
> persuasive the argument for it. *g*  But really, I don't think this 
is a
> particularly labored reading of the passages in question -- I think 
it
> is easily defensible that Harry is viewing Cedric as an object of
> desire.  And to my mind, this reading is not in conflict with the 
more
> obvious one that Harry is jealous of Cedric, but a layering of it, a
> complication of it.
> 
> > Does Harry need a necessary reason? How about, Cedric's 
constantly being
> > held up this year as a paragon of good, an example to emulate? 
> 
> The context here, however, is not of a competition with Cedric's
> behavior, but using Cedric as a paradigm for an object of desire -- 
so,
> yes, I think Harry needs some sort of reason for doing so.  No one 
else
> is constantly holding up Cedric as a paragon of desirability.
> 
> > How about, Cedric's in direct competition with Harry, 
even "getting
> > the girl." How about, he's mad at Cedric? How about, he's trying 
to
> > find something to fault in Cedric to bolster his own waning
> > self-confidence? 
> 
> All *additional* reasons, yes, that don't negate the homoerotic 
ones.
> 
> > And in this case, I took the term "pretty boy" to be a derogatory
> > statement, not a complimentary one.
> 
> Indeed, I take it as such also.  In fact, I think the phrase is 
really a
> particularly telling word choice.  The term 'pretty boy' carries 
with
> it, I would say, an entire register of meaning to do with 
effeminacy and
> passivity that easily shades over into the homoerotic -- and is 
almost
> invariably cast as negative.  The term implies a (threat of) loss of
> masculinity because the person it is applied to is then 
automatically
> placed in the position of desired object, the 'feminine' position.  
By
> nature of its meaning, it implies a positive valuation of the 
person's
> looks (they are 'pretty'), but that very valuation is then, 
inevitably,
> a negative thing, because it brings with it effective castration.  A
> very negative term, but in the context I don't see how it can but be
> homoerotic.
> 
> --jen :)
> 

Shouldn't we remember that, despite JKR writing for a steadily 
evolving audience following her success, that these are childrens 
books? JKR is showing herself to be very sensitive to childrens 
issues in the UK e.g. one parent families. How would a child of, say 
12, read this?




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Wed Feb 28 23:18:30 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:18:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010228103424.00a34a90@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102281807280.6459-100000@er6.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13195

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Katie Kearns wrote:

> I have to say, I don't agree with your reading. ;)

*shrugs*  It's okay, I won't take it personally.  (They *reject*
me!  No-ooo!) :)  Really, I just wish I could make the argument
persuasively enough to convince everyone, but I'll settle for being
clear and disagreed with.  *g*

> But I have a question for you: if the genders of everyone were switched -- 
> Harry-ette is thinking mean thoughts about Cedric-ette because she's going 
> to the dance with Mr. Cho.... would you consider the scene homoerotic? ;)

If it were written precisely the way the GoF scene is (with some
necessary substitutions for "handsome," "pretty boy," and the masculine
pronouns), absolutely.  Although female homoeroticism in literature
usually operates differently from male homoeroticism (offhand, I can't
think of a f/f rival-relationship portrayed homoerotically, but I'm
*certain* it's been done), in that it's more common to see friendships
eroticized between women than enmities, the reading I propose of the
Yule Ball scene is not dependent upon any wider knowledge of the way
erotics often comes into play in same-sex relationships in
literature.  What's key is the portrayal, not any particular gender of
the characters.  (And even if we were talking about Harry, Cedric-ette,
and Cho, I would still believe the relationship between H and Ce.-ette
to be portrayed in an eroticized manner, FWIW.)

--jen, who avoided a one-line "yes" response to that post :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From optimistic_88 at msn.com  Wed Feb 28 23:19:17 2001
From: optimistic_88 at msn.com (optimistic_88 at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:19:17 -0000
Subject: HIV/AIDS in the wizarding world?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010228194451.007d18e0@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <97k11l+ijjg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13196

I think illnesses occur, they're just prevented before any serious 
affects can occur-or they're spotter quicker before they occur. 
Making it not a cause for concern, so there's no point in mentioning 
it. HIV/AIDS...you never know about STDS, they're most likely there, 
but there are cures or something (not to mention HP is a children's 
book, so I don't think JK would concider telling her readers about 
that-after all to get those dieses you gotta have sex-which probably 
everybody agrees 6 year olds should not be hearing about.) That's 
true though that evil wizards are the only real cause for concern in 
the wizarding world....
~Kim B.
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Joanne Collins <joannec at l...> wrote:
> I was thinking about this, being a slash fan leads to thoughts like 
this
> quite often *g*.
> 
> We don't often hear of many illnesses in the wizarding world. 
Injuries
> abound, but not illness. It seems that people are more likely to 
die from
> an attack by Voldemort than from cancer.
> 
> So do you think HIV/AIDS would be a concern in the wizarding world, 
or one
> of those muggle problems?
> 
> I doubt we'll ever get a canon view on it.
> 
> I'd like to believe it's not a concern, but I wonder if that's just 
because
> we *don't* have canon opinions on such things.
> 
> Joanne.




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Wed Feb 28 23:15:11 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:15:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <97i13c+rqqm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFOELFCCAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13197

This 40 something reads to her 2 boys age 12 and 13. We are only on chapter
10 in GoF. I read all four books and I agree that part will prove to be a
challenge with them. I got upset myself and when I read about Cedric's death
I let out a very loud no way! The boys asked me what I was upset over but I
told them they would find out later at family read time. So when we get
there I will let you know the aftermath of that chapter. So far they like
all the scary parts and no bad dreams! I also agree with you about
"Wormtail". Alas he got what come around to him because of the deaths of
others he caused. Will get back to you in future posts. Wanda the Witch and
Roy here in Revere,Ma

-----Original Message-----
From: jjohnson400 at home.com [mailto:jjohnson400 at home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:08 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood


Hi - I'm new to the board - I've been lurking for about a week,
enjoying all of your posts, and have finally decided to take a deep
breath and jump in! This chapter summary and its questions really
struck a chord with me because I was concerned about how my daughter
would react to the events described in it. After much discussion,
here's our 40-something and 10-year old takes on the events:
>
 1.  When Peter Pettigrew is serving the dark lord is he always called
wormtail?

Perhaps Voldemort calls Peter by his nickname to reinforce his
superiority over him. I imagine Voldemort addressing him as "Wormtail"
in a very derisive tone, as if Peter isn't  worthy of having a proper
name.

 2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital to
the plot and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?

(Okay, I admit it, as soon as we got the book I skipped ahead to see
who was killed off!) Cedric's death seems to me to be an excellent
example of how random and senseless evil can be, so I would have to
say it's important to the plot/character development.


3. Did you read this chapter verbatim to your kids?  Were they creeped
out?
>
My daughter did read this chapter verbatim, but we discussed it in
depth (as we did Chapter 1). After this chapter, I think my daughter
had a much clearer understanding of the evil that Voldemort
represents. However, she did have at least one nightmare related to
the events in this chapter. It took her a few readings to warm up to
GoF -  PoA is still both of our favorites but GoF has slipped into
second!

I'm looking forward to participating in this board - so nice to talk
HP with adults instead of j


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From optimistic_88 at msn.com  Wed Feb 28 23:44:31 2001
From: optimistic_88 at msn.com (optimistic_88 at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:44:31 -0000
Subject: Blond Hair
In-Reply-To: <3A9D0259.12AA380F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97k2gv+g1v7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13198

I agree with you on everything you've said so far-first of all I'd 
like to claify that I am not Swedish, or from any Swedish descent. I 
am in turn from part German, part Slovenian, and part Hungarian. But 
I've visited the 'land of happy little blonds', but I am not one 
myself. That's about it. Over and out.
~Kim B.
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> 
> > Conclusion: rowling doesn?t like blondes. I am as a 
representative of
> > sweden (the land of happy little blondes) tremendously offended.
> 
> Well, judging by the folk of Swedish descent whom I've met, you're
> actually from the Land of Great Big Blond People. I have never met a
> little Swedish person.
> 
> I think you do JKR a disservice as an author, to think she is so 
remote
> and categorical to use such hair color "tags." As I understand the
> process--Penny can correct or clarify--an author develops a mental
> picture of their character. In many cases, the personality of the
> character helps to "build" their appearance in the author's mental 
view.
> It's an organic process, nothing so clinical as, "Hey, we need 
another
> brown-haired person to balance the scene." For most of the 
characters,
> then, I'd imagine their hair color just "felt" right for them to 
JKR,
> with no other overarching plan.
> 
> So while the examples of unpleasant blond people in the book may be
> evidence of JKR having bad associations with blonds on some level or
> other, I really doubt she's using hair color as a marker or clue.
> [Exception: there may be some connection with black, untidy hair,
> specifically Harry's and Tom Riddle's, but I think that's the only 
hair
> plot connection.]
> 
> --Amanda, hoping she made sense, she writes nonfiction
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET  Wed Feb 28 23:57:39 2001
From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:57:39 -0500
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary
Message-ID: <004101c0a1e2$3d5c16a0$24851440@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13199

Hello from a lurker. I have only posted once before, but this one pertains to my family. I read all four books aloud to two of my 5 kids, my 9 year old daughter and my 14 year old son. I "warned" them before we started book four that there would be a couple of deaths in this book ( I had already read them myself). I don't think it had a big effect on either of them, of course 14 year old males are numb from the violence they watch at the movies anyway. My daughter was very sad about Cedric's death, but not frightened. As a matter of fact, we have the books on tape, and since Christmas she has listened to all of them at least once, and book four she has listened to about 4 times. She said it was her favorite. I think by warning your child first they will handle it well. My sister has also read them to her two daughters. They are 7 & 8 and she read it just as it was written also. You have to look at each child as an individual, but I think most, if they are really interested in the books, will not have a big problem. Cedric was a friend, but he wasn't Harry. "IF" (please don't Jo) Harry is killed off, I think that will have a huge effect on everyone, no matter what their age.
Thanks for letting me put my two cents worth in. I really enjoy reading most all the posts, and love the Filks. My 8 year old niece thinks her Aunt Di is obsessed. I probably am.lol
Diana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 00:54:28 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:54:28 +0800
Subject: evil, Lily's House, Quidditch/Seer (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 990)
References: <992958922.4264.84369.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <018f01c093c5$317a1a60$e705bacb@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 21198

Hello,

>>>Slightly OT here. But Iago isn't just an inhuman embodiment of Evil.<<<

And I think I wrote an essay to that effect.  Detailing that Iago is the
real protagonist of "Othello" instead of the stupid Moor.

>>>Some of you complained that we know very little about Lily: where are her
girl friends?  etc.  Well it just occurred to me that we don't, to the best
of my knowledge (though after my whinge above someone will no doubt trump me
with some obscure chat reference!), know for sure that she was in
Gryffindor.<<<

You're right, somoene has to trump the chat card.  IIRC, JKR said something
to the degree of "Of course she's in Gryffindor."  Or maybe that was James.
I don't remember...  :-(

>>>4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF Harry flies a
broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. Discuss.
5) Ron predicts that he will get an owl since Scabbers is no longer around.
This means he is a Seer. Discuss.<<<

Don't 'command' me! <g>

But Ron's 'prediction' is part wistful thinking.  Not exactly a sign for a
Seer, if you ask me.

little Alex


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