Ron/Sirius parallels

[Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 11591

Hi --

Kimberly wrote:

> I said:
> > > In PoA he was in attack/revenge/protection mode, which was quite
> > > anger-oriented,
> >
> Penny:
> > I agree with Monika & Carole that his actions appear to be less
> > motivated by *anger* as they are by PTSD, stress, etc.
>
> Kimberly: I think the anger may have been fueled by those things, but
> I don't think that the presence of those things negates the anger.
>
> Sudden and possibly useful realization:
> I think the fundamental problem in our understanding each other's
> points of view in this instance is that I see anger as a valid
> emotion - one that can sometimes lead to inappropriate actions, and
> needs to be controlled, but not something that is bad and wrong.  As
> an example from my Christian perspective, Jesus was angry at the way
> the temple had been turned into a marketplace, and he dealt with it in
>
> a very angry manner.  So to me anger is not necessarily bad, but it
> can sometimes be dangerous.  From your responses I'm thinking maybe
> you see it differently?

No, not at all.  I don't think anger is always a "bad" emotion by any
means.  My original point (I think -- <g>) was just that I'm not sure we
can correctly ascribe a hot temper personality trait to Sirius.  That's
all.  I have no judgments about anger -- it's a valid emotion in many
cases.

> Ok, I can buy that - it's true we don't know what motivated it [the
> werewolf prank by Sirius].  I was assuming it was anger because the
> alternative as I saw it was something far more frightening.  But I may
> be overlooking another more reasonable motivation.  What is your
> suggestion?

:::shrugs:::   I have no suggestions really.  <g>  I'm just noting that
we don't know the full story; therefore, I don't think it's fair for
people to make judgments about who was the wronged party in that
scenario without having all the facts (or more of them than we do).
Snape *appears* to be the aggrieved party, but things aren't always as
they appear to be in the JKR universe IMO.

> I may be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure he says in PoA  that
> he went looking for him, and that he wanted to kill him, but that
> Peter was too quick for him.  Can anyone tell me if I've made that up
> in my head?  It wouldn't be the first time, I admit.  But even if I
> got that wrong, as I understand it Sirius wasn't much of a suspect
> before Pettigrew created the scene, cried out that he'd betrayed James
>
> and Lily and then was 'killed' by him.

Well, I think it's reasonable to assume that he *would* have been a
prime suspect, even absent that scene with Pettigrew & the murders of
the muggles.  At *that* point, Dumbledore and Remus (and presumably most
anyone else with any knowledge of the situation) thinks Black was the
Secret-Keeper.

> Penny:
> > I agree -- that's why I added the qualifier re: if relying on grades
>
> > alone.  But, I don't see Hermione as being strictly the intellectual
>
> > type.  She puts her smarts to good use -- she uses practical
> application
> > all the time.
>
> So do you mean Remus doesn't?

I suppose he does.  He's a professor in the one case where we the
readers know him.  So, I have an image of him as an "intellectual"
bookish type -- not a "man of action."  He could be both -- I'm not
saying that isn't possible.  But, I still see a stronger parallel
between Hermione and Sirius than Hermione and Remus.  Just my opinion.

> Penny:
> >She does reflexively turn to books, and I honestly can't see Sirius
> being that type.  But, she *also* thinks on her feet & has
> > natural "brightness" -- traits I do ascribe to Sirius.
>
> Again, see above.  Can  you give me examples of where Sirius is this
> way and/or Remus is not?

No, not really.  <g>  I'm quite tired though.  It's really just a
"perception" -- not anything I have necessarily given solid thought to
at the moment.

> I really, honestly see parallels between Hermione and Lupin.  Who
> helps Harry learn the summoning spells?  Hermione.  Who helps him
> learn to create a patronus?  Lupin.  I think Lupin is very sensible;
> he thinks on his feet and is prepared.  He shows up with chocolate
> when the dementors strike because that's what is needed.  Poppy
> Pomfrey commented on that with great respect.  It was something like -
>
> finally, a DADA teacher who knows his remedies.

Oh, I see those parallels too.  Really!  I just see *more* parallels
between Hermione and Sirius.  Maybe it's just me.  I don't have much
concrete evidence tonight -- sorry.  I think she does have parallels
with both of those characters, but I just lean toward a Sirius parallel
being a bit stronger.

> But, it seems to me that he couldn't then get past his stubborness to
> accept what Hermione must have told him at least once (that Harry
> hadn't entered himself in the Tournament & was very upset/frightened).
>
> Now now ;), if I can't know the details about the Sirius/Snape
> incident, you can't know what Hermione told Ron - you can't have it
> both ways.

I'm not trying to be intellectually dishonest.  I think I said
originally (if I didn't -- I meant to) that I *assume* Hermione must
have told Ron that Harry didn't enter himself into the Tournament.  I
assume this because she did try to explain Ron's feelings to Harry, so I
logically infer that she would have tried to explain Harry's position to
Ron at some point.  That could very well be off-base, but it wouldn't be
very much like Hermione to only give Harry Ron's POV.

I think we do also know *alot* more about the Harry/Ron fight in general
than we do about the Sirius/Snape werewolf prank.  We know enough about
the Harry/Ron to make some inferences, but we have absolutely no idea
what motivated Sirius to play that prank on Snape.

> Penny:
> >If he'd made some moves toward reconciliation early on, the fight
> could have ended.
>
> Yup.  So could Harry have done.

I agree completely!  Harry needlessly prolonged that fight.  But, the
fight itself was started by Ron.

> Again, we don't know what Hermione said to him or what he was
> thinking.  I agree it was probably about jealousy, but this is even
> more speculative than my comments on Sirius and Snape as kids, since
> we do have *some* account of that incident.

See above.  I do disagree with this.  We know what happened in the
Sirius/Snape incident to be sure.  But, we know zero, zip, nada about
what motivated Sirius to do it in the first place.

We don't know if Hermione said anything to Ron (along the lines of
"Harry didn't enter himself in that Tournament.  Couldn't you see that
from the look on his face?  Besides, I've talked to him about it, and
he's really scared, Ron.").  That just sounds like a conversation she
would have had with him.  IMO.

> But I can't see how this makes him dissimilar to Sirius, as Sirius did
>
> the very same thing to Remus.  Lupin had done nothing to make his
> friends suspect him of being disloyal, but they distrusted him so much
>
> that they left him completely out of the decision to change
> secret-keepers.

Dumbledore and others suspected that *someone* close to the Potters was
passing information to Voldemort.  Something convinced Sirius that he
should trust Pettigrew rather than Lupin.  It was a wrong decision, but
we still don't know all the facts surrounding how he came to that
decision.

Anyway .... I still think Hermione has more parallels to Sirius than
Ron, but we can just agree to disagree, right?  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]