SHIP: Ship-a-dee-doo-da

[Kathleen Kelly MacMillan]

No: HPFGUIDX 12213

OK, first of all, NO FAIR starting a shipping thread while my Internet 
connection is down!  (I had no access for 3 days! *sob* It was horrible!)

However, I am glad to see that the crew of the Good Ship R/H seems to be out 
in force!  Some really good points have been made on all sides.  Not sure 
exactly what I can add, but hey, that never stopped me from jumping in 
before,right? ;)


Amy Z wrote:
>I don't think succeeding in romance with Hermione, whether short- or
>long-term, would exactly alleviate Ron's disquietude (nice
>phrase)--although it would make his second-class status less pressing
>an issue.  That would be not because he now has something Harry
>doesn't, but because he's happy.  Success in love will make all sorts
>of unhappinesses seem unimportant.

I think this is a great point.  And, for the record, I don't think Ron's 
feelings for Hermione have anything to do with Harry.  Granted, they could 
become related later on if FITD comes into play, but I think, right now, the 
thing is, Ron likes Hermione.  He likes he because he likes her, not because 
Harry doesn't, or because he wants something Harry doesn't have, or any of 
those things.  And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that Hermione 
is probably the ONE person who doesn't think Ron is somehow inferior to Harry.
 For that reason, I think a relationship with Hermione would help Ron realize 
his own worth and help him see he isn't second-best.

Amy Z again:
>So I'm thinking that for Ron, what would be worse than Harry falling
>in love with Hermione, asking her out, and succeeding, would be Harry
>being indifferent to Hermione, but her asking him out and succeeding.
>That's what's so misery-inducing about HGTG for me.  And if Harry and
>Hermione did get together, this is how it would likely be, IMO,
>because IMO Harry has zero romantic interest in Hermione right now.

Wholehearted;y agree with that last bit.  Aside from being ardently R/H (hey, 
did you know that?<g>)  I dearly hope that Hermione doesn't develop feelings 
for Harry for that reason: he wouldn't like her back, IMO, and she would just 
end up being hurt.

I agree with the bit about it being worse for Ron in this scenario, but I 
think a major part of the reason that it would be worse for him is that he 
would have to stand by and watch Hermione get hurt.  I could see that being 
more painful for him than the jealousy thing, though that would certainly come 
into play, too.  With all the Ron-might-go-bad scenarios we have discussed, I 
don't think this one ever came up:  Ron turns all evil to get revenge on Harry 
for hurting Hermione.  He's a passionate guy; it's possible, I guess.


Ebony wrote:
<<One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to debunk HGTG
>is that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he
>doesn't have... the girl."

And Rina replied:
>Okay. This has never been my argument, so I'm probably not going to do the
>R/Hers any good here. <snip> I've been sitting here reading your message
>repeatedly, and damned if I can't even defend the above rationale that
>apparently some R/Hers have taken, because it's rather insulting. Who
>started that?!

Actually, as far as I know, this has never been any R/H-ers argument, at least 
on this list.  "HGTG" came up as an offhand way to talk about what many 
R/H-ers feel is the cliched nature of H/H (i.e. "If you have a problem with 
OBHWF as being to cliched, what about HGTG?").  I for one think that if Ron 
does "deserve" Hermione, it's because he cares about her and would treat her 
right (you know, once he finally gets a clue <g>).  I don't see why R/H has to 
have anything to do with Harry at all...other than the fact that he's their 
friend and would still need to be included.

Rina again:
>The relationship between Ron and Hermione should be just that - BETWEEN RON
>AND HERMIONE.

Bingo.  Exactly what I am trying to say.

B. said:
>These are not exchangeable concepts (i.e.
>saying you think HGTG is the reason people think Harry and Hermione
>will pair up doesn't automatically mean you think HGTG is the
>reason Ron and Hermione should pair up).

This says it more coherently than I ever could. :)


Penny wrote:
>I think HGTG was originally put forth as a reason why R/H types dislike
>the notion of H/H.  They argued that it wouldn't be "right" for the hero
>to get the girl (too cliche).  <snip> But, the H/H types are
>equally disturbed by the R/H position that Ron deserves the girl because
>he needs something that Harry doesn't have.

Again, I think this is a misinterpretation.  See above.  And I believe that 
last sentence is putting words into the mouths of R/H-ers; as I mentioned 
before, that is hardly the position I have seen being expressed.

Penny wrote:
>We argue that Hermione's feelings are just as important as
>Ron or Harry's feelings.  Where we disagree with the R/H types is that
>we interpret Hermione as having feelings for Harry (hence, HGTG and
>Sidekick gets the Girl as a consolation prize becomes doubly offensive
>to most of us).

And R/H-ers don't discount Hermione's feelings either, I might point out.  I 
think what our H/H compatriots fail to recognize is that our position is NOT 
based on "Harry has everything, give Ron the girl", but rather on the evidence 
we see of MUTUAL attraction between Ron and Hermione.  Obviously, we differ on 
this point, but that's no reason to accuse us of pushing Hermione off on 
someone she doesn't want! <g>

First mate Mo wrote:
>What I'm trying to say is that Harry stinks at giving us the dirt but if you
>look closely enough, you can tell where JKR is leading us.

LOL!  Can you imagine if we were seeing things from Lavender or Parvati's POV?
 We'd get a lot more gossip (and I bet we would know whether the robes were 
open at the front or not too!)

Amy Z wrote:
>This R/H type (32 years old with too many degrees) admits to seeing a
>very, very subtle H/H subtext.  Very subtle.  Almost nonexistent.

Well, this R/H type can also admit to seeing why others might interpret some 
things as H/H (and, as I have admitted before, I did flirt with the other side 
before finding the True R/H Way <g>).  But I see the things that others seems 
to see as "subtext" as the strengthening of the H/H friendship.  To me, it 
actually takes away from JKR's wonderfully subtle description of friendship to 
ascribe a romantic subtext to these things (the Kiss comes to mind, but there 
are many other examples as well.) That's the main reason H/H never rang true 
to me--it feels forced and it takes something away from Harry and Hermione's 
friendship. To me, anyway.

Zsenya:
>I don't see Ron/Hermione as having anything to do with Harry at all,
>to be perfectly honest.  At the moment, I think that the main reason
>that Ron likes Hermione is that he's a 14-year old boy and she
>happens to be the one person who makes his heart thump.

Exactly.  And I believe it was you, Zsenya, who pointed out that Ron was 
attracted to Hermione before her teeth were fixed, before she made herself 
pretty for the ball.  He's attracted to her for who she is, even if he hasn't 
realized it yet.

Mo
>Ron wears his heart on his sleeve.  Hermione is a bit more reserved.  I
>don't think R/H would be too obvious or too unlike JKR at all.  I really
>don't think that she has to add a *twist* to everything or will feel the
>need to.  Some things can be cut and dry and still be interesting and fun to
>read about. :)

What really struck me upon reading this was: yes, JKR does throw in plot 
twists and surprises.  But, she doesn't mess with the relationships and the 
characterizations she has been building up.  If Harry were to suddenly fall 
madly in love with Hermione, it would be completely out of character and not 
true to the portrait she has been building of him.  Yes, events can happen 
which can be a catalyst to a relationship between 2 characters (the Goblet of 
Fire or the Yule Ball for instance), but I don't see the characters suddenly 
turning into something else.  We all bought that Ron would react the way he 
did to the Goblet of Fire because we knew about his insecurities.  We bought 
his jealousy at the Yule Ball because we knew he liked Hermione.  I for one 
bought Hermione's reaction because I believe she liked Ron back and was 
irritated with him for his "you *are* a girl" thing.  (Obviously, other people 
have come up with other explanations for that, but there you are.  Either way, 
it fits the character.)

Then again, we apparently disagree in our interpretations of the characters, 
so that may affect how we see this as well.  I still feel that H/H would be 
completely jarring and out of character.

Enough rambling for now...


Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
glad to be back on board