[HPforGrownups] Re: "Fanfic Tangent" (ship warning)

Sun Jan 21 11:24:31 UTC 2001

No: HPFGUIDX 9977

I've tried to resist, but just can't.  And since I find myself agreeing with 
Ebony on ship issues (will wonders never cease! <g>), well, then, I just must 
...

Most of what I'm replying to was written by Ebony, but she was replying to 
another post (the author of which is not known to myself) so some of the 
comments I'm replying to are *not* hers.  I have attempted to note those that 
were stated by someone other by Ebony if I knew that was the case.  I have 
probably made mistakes and for those I apologize.

So (bracing myself) here goes!:

 << As I've said, we H/Hers are steeling ourselves for impending doom... oh, 
I mean, the Inevitable R/H Pairing.>>

Doom?  Goodness! I hope it's not that awful for you.  I really mean that.  I 
think Ms. Rowlings has her reasons for heading in that direction, and that 
they'll make sense and possibly be less awful for you when (and if) they 
happen.

 < All right, Switzerland!  I enjoy both R/H fics and H/H fics as well. >

And I enjoy het fics as well as slash fics.  I actually find the ones that 
deal with minor characters most intriguing.

[Ebony responded to the following]:

  >Harrykins and Hermy-oh-ninny don't belong together any more than Ronny-poo 
belongs with Hermy-oh-ninny, at least, not until the Creator says so.>>

And during a bout of aol's evilness I seem to have lost her response.  I 
apologize, but also add:

And maybe, just maybe, Harrykins and Hermikins and Ronniekins *all* don't 
belong together.  Or maybe Harrykins and Ronniekins belong together.  But it 
is all up to Ms. Rowlings, whom I believe is the Goddess of the Potterverse.  

<snip of lots of really good stuff>

<There's a ton of Hermione-suicide fics, too, only one of which I've ever 
liked (I honestly can't remember the title/author right now, but it was a 
stream of > consciousness that was beautifully written but didn't > give you 
enough back story to ruin the moment). I do think that our favorite trio, 
being in Gryffindor, ... should show a little more backbone than that - after 
all, in Gryffindor "dwell the brave of heart," and to use a cliche, suicide 
is the coward's way out.>

There were a lot of quotes in this post, and I'm not entirely sure who wrote 
that last bit ... I don't want to offend anyone or wrongly state that anyone 
has said anything, but I do want to reply to this.  I agree that suicide is 
*sometimes* the coward's way out.  Under torture or other unbearable 
situations, I don't believe suicide is cowardly.  I have experienced severe 
clinical depression and I know that it is impossible to react to it in any 
way that makes sense to people who have not experienced depression and that 
persons who end there lives under that condition are not being cowardly.  It 
really is that awful to them.  I also know that you can't make yourself 
undepressed or non-suicidal on your own.  I do believe that a Gryffindor 
faced with a life surrounded by dementors might choose to end their life and 
I would not consider that cowardly.

I'm very, very sorry that you've lost peers and friends to suicide.  I very 
recently lost my mother the same way.  It hurts in a way that nothing else 
does.

I'm still not in favor of banning anything anyone's written, but I do 
understand how much it must hurt you.  

It does occur in folklore/mythology, which is what I believe Ms. Rowlings is 
writing.  It's not a good choice for commercial purposes, but it is actually 
a traditional theme.  In addition, Ms. Rowlings has gently prepared her 
audience for that eventuality in interviews.  Harry's death may not happen, 
but it is not inconceivable.

<more respectful snipping>

< because despite all of our ship debating, Harry, Ron, and Hermione are 
first and foremost *friends*.  Ron has feelings for Hermione. Has anyone ever 
considered that he *might* step aside or tamp those feelings down?>

Why would he do that? Do you really think it's acceptable for a person to 
sacrifice their feelings for another in order to let the "Hero" get the girl?

 <Also, here's another argument I hear often from the R/H side:  "Harry  is 
the hero.  Harry has everything and Ron has nothing.  Harry can't have the 
girl too."  First, the premise of the argument bothers me.   I love the 
Weasley family to pieces and feel that any kid lucky  enough to grow up with 
Arthur and Molly for parents has a lot.  Harry would trade all his fame in a 
heartbeat to be in Ron's shoes.  And vice versa.>

I believe this is a mythology/folklore issue.  Are there any persons onlist 
who have made extensive studies of mythology and/or folklore or who have 
degrees in mythology and/or folklore who can address it?  [Aside to anyone 
who's interested:  do the descriptions of Lily sound at least just a bit like 
descriptions of The Morrigan to you?]  I've read almost everything I could 
get my hands on about the subject, but I still haven't read enough and I 
don't have a degree, so I can't speak authoritatively.  I can say that I 
think that the "Hero doesn't get the girl/sidekick does get the girl" 
scenario almost never occurs in folk stories.  IIRC from the many stories 
I've read, either the story is directly and emphatically about the 
Hero/Heroine winning the heart of the "Object of Desire" or the whole 
romantic thing is a complete red herring (if it's even there) and the Hero 
Saves the World/Wins the Throne, etc. and walks away alone, with the romantic 
liaisons of the sidekicks entirely unknown.  The Harry Potter series does not 
seem to be following the "Hero Wins the Object of Desire" model.

I must add to this that I don't believe any Object of Desire exists in Ms. 
Rowlings' Potterverse.  Hermione as written in canon is not flawless (no, 
she's not!), and Ginny is um, uncertain (yes, she is!) and most Objects of 
Desire are quite deliberately described as such.

<more respectful snippage>

 <*That* is a problem in the friendship between the two boys that has nothing 
to do with Hermione.  Both of them, in some measure, wants to be the other.>

Started to disagree, then noticed the "in some measure," so ... okay.

 <<Secondly, most of the H/Hers I talk to are bothered by the idea of  Ron 
getting the girl on the basis that "he likes Hermione, and  Harry's the hero, 
so Ron gets the girl."  Hermione isn't a  possession!  She's their best 
friend, an equal, or as fanfic writer  Parker put it so aptly in "Friend 
Enough?"--"the brains of this  operation, the glue that holds us together".  
>>

True, Hermione isn't a possession.  Neither is Harry.  Hermione doesn't "get" 
Harry because she's clever or witty or any of the many other nice things she 
is.

As I tend to identify with Harry, I bristle at the suggestion that *anyone* 
should "get" him.  Poor boy!  He's not a prize, you know, he's a person!  And 
to force him to spend the rest of his life with a bossy, know-it-all, 
stifling person (and that *is* the way Ms. Rowlings has described Hermione so 
far) is not exactly fair to Harry! Henpecked!Harry totally squicks me. 
Forcing Harry to spend the rest of his life with anyone is really not very 
kind to him.  I most object to the H/H pairing because I consider it a 
"shotgun wedding" for Poor Harry.  

Why can't Harry be independent and happy?

I agree that Hermione is one of the brains of the operation.  Ron is another 
brain of the operation, although of a different (but equally important) sort. 
 Harry's blessed to have them both to rely on as friends.

<<Why don't any of these arguments take her feelings into account? >>

I don't believe they should, but neither do I believe that Ron's feelings 
should be taken into account.  The books are written from Harry's point of 
view.  Unless Harry is a psychic empath or Hermione declares her feelings 
directly to Harry, we can't really know what Hermione's feelings are, nor are 
they the focus of the story.  

I agree.  I believe that's why she'd look elsewhere (even into her adulthood) 
for a romantic partnership.

Absolutely.  Just as it's ridiculous to believe that Harry would necessarily 
fall into Hermione's arms.

 <<Let's wait to see what Hermione thinks in canon.>>

I hope you are not holding your breath.  Unless she makes a statement to 
Harry, I don't believe that we will ever know that with certainty, nor is it 
particularly important to Harry's story. Even if Hermione does make it 
evident that she is romantically inclined towards Harry, that does not create 
an H/H ship.  

 < For all we know,  she might very wisely conclude that she'd rather keep 
her friendships  the way they are... and continue to correspond with Viktor 
Krum.>

Indeed she may! Maybe Ron and Harry will be ushers at the wedding.

I have a feeling that Harry will not be involved romantically with anyone at 
the end of the books and that he may have considerable difficulty in forming 
relationships with anyone, even in the future, unless he gets some really 
good therapy.  After all, the persons who should have been raising him were 
killed (possibly, although not certainly, because of *who* he is).  The 
persons who are raising him abuse him.  The second person in the wizard world 
who attempted to befriend him turns out to be a nasty, slimy git who bullies 
him.  The person who attempted to kill his parents is still after him.  The 
one teacher he feels sure is evil and out to get him is actually trying to 
save his life and on the side of the good guys.  The person he believes 
betrayed his parents did not betray them.  His friend's pet rat did betray 
his parents.  Harry doesn't exactly have a firm foundation for trusting 
others. 

And I'll speak from experience on the issue as well: when the people you most 
depend on abuse you, forming trusting, loving relationships is extremely 
difficult. It also makes you very brave. 

You're very probably hooking Hermione up with someone who's suffering from 
PTSD.  It could be dicey for them both.

My ship pet peeve: the odd insistence that any of us are necessarily and 
unequivocally right in our ship beliefs, regardless of Ms. Rowling's 
statements and/or canon writings. I must reiterate that I believe that Ms. 
Rowlings is the Goddess of the Potterverse and I accept her scenario 
(whatever it may be) in spite of my own hopes and wishes. 

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
90% obsessed and proud of it!
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~