Ron/Sirius parallels

[Kimberly]

No: HPFGUIDX 11302

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Not sure where I fit as I like both Ron and Sirius (to different 
degrees & for different reasons) but ...
> 
I have to ask, after reading your post - is one of those degrees "not 
much at all"? ;)

> Someone posted a nice analysis of how PTSD could have been the 
driving force behind Sirius' persona in PoA (Monika maybe?).  
Anyway .... I'm not so sure that Sirius really does have
> a hair-trigger temper.  He's portrayed that way in fanfic land 
quite often (including mine & Carole's ASA), but I think he is 
considerably different in GoF than in PoA.  To be sure,
> he's still very protective of Harry and impulsive (flying north at 
the first hint of trouble), but you don't really see the same 
violent, temper-flaring actions from Sirius in GoF.

I think though that this leaves out his personality during his teen 
years, when the comparison can best be made.  Then he *was* rather 
rash and impulsive, and easily angered.  If not, his decision to send 
Snape off to face a full-on werewolf was far more cold and cruel, and 
I don't see evidence of that tendency in him in any of the books so 
far.  
I believe Sirius was still quite young when he was sent to Azkaban.  
I think there he didn't have the chance to continue growing and 
maturing much as most of us do in our twenties and into our 
thirties.  He was busy just trying to survive there.  The basic 
personality traits he had as a teenager hadn't had a chance to evolve 
and be softened and sharpened in the places they needed to be.  
In PoA he was in attack/revenge/protection mode, which was quite 
anger-oriented, but by the time he gets much screen-time in GoF it 
has been several months since the events of PoA and he's been out of 
range of much danger from those searching for him.  He's had a lot of 
time with himself away from the positive emotion-sucking Dementors.  
He's getting the chance to catch up on a lot of reflection and self-
examination.

> He's much more the stable, wise, self-sacrificing, protective 
godfather.

I agree he's wise and self-sacrificing, and definitely he's 
protective, but as for stable, to be fair, in GoF he's not physically 
present very much.  He isn't faced bodily with those who is a threat 
to himself or Harry, so flying off the handle at them really isn't an 
option for him.  

> So .... all in all, I'm not so sure we can definitely ascribe a hot 
temper to Sirius.

You have to take into account the fact that his first instinct, as a 
kid in the MWPP days, as a young adult when James and Lily died, and 
in the events of PoA, was to seek vengeance.  That indicates to me a 
temper.  If as a grown man he's getting it under control, that just 
indicates to me that Ron will get the chance to do the same, and 
hopefully under much more normal circumstances, and more quickly.

> 
> Yes, but the same parallel can be made between Hermione and 
Sirius.  

I agree, she is very loyal, and she is readily willing to make 
sacrifices for her friends. 

I'm one of the few who paralleled Hermione to Sirius back when we 
were trying to compare the Trio to the
> Marauders.  Most people paired her up with Lupin because of 
intellect, although I maintain that since McGonagall said James & 
Sirius were the brightest students of their year, Lupin
> must be slightly less intellectual (if relying on grades alone 
anyway).  

But there's a difference between bright and intellectual.  From my 
observation Remus is a man of thought, Sirius a man of action, 
regardless of their relative IQs or grades.  That's not to say Sirius 
isn't intellectual and Remus doesn't take action, but their general 
tendencies seem to run that way.  Plus Remus missed a couple of days 
of classes every month due to err.... non-feminine pms :), which was 
bound to affect his grades.  Especially if any of the teachers were 
like Snape, or even McGonagall.

>So .... I think Hermione & Sirius are more alike -- bright, fiercely 
>loyal & steadfast, etc.
> Hermione is loyal in what I deem a more traditional way than Ron.  
She behaved poorly in the PoA Crookshanks fight incident, but she was 
under alot of stress.  And, her actions that
> precipitated that fight were motivated by 
loyalty/friendship/concern for Harry's welfare.  

I assume you're meaning the firebolt fight and not the Scabbers fight 
in that last sentence?  As far as I can tell her actions that 
precipitated the Scabbers fight were carelessness, a lack of 
responsibility for her pet and a disregard for the feelings of her 
friend.  She wasn't stressed at the beginning of the term, and that's 
when she started those habits with Crookshanks.  She behaved badly, 
and Ron was angry, but he forgave her, then she apologized and they 
got past it, so I did too.  I believed her apology was sincere and 
heartfelt, and that she really does care deeply for her friends.  I 
believe the same about Ron.


I view Ron's inability to see (or believe when he was presumably 
specifically told by
> Hermione) that Harry didn't enter himself into the Tournament as a 
breach of friendship & loyalty.  I think Ron must have been told this 
by Hermione, since she did initially tell
> Harry that Ron was jealous.  So, I'm guessing she likewise spelled 
out Harry's position to Ron.
 
I agree that Ron behaved badly in this situation.  His jealousy and 
insecurity got in the way of his friendship at a very hard time for 
Harry.  He was childish and stupid, but he clearly showed that he was 
still worried about his friend, and that he still cared.  And the 
moment Harry was shown to be in danger Ron was right back by his side 
ready to do whatever he could to help.  He showed less disloyalty to 
Harry than Remus and Sirius did to each other by both believing the 
other had betrayed James and Lily, and they got past it as well.  I 
think it's natural for friends to fight, and it's better to get hard 
feelings out in the open than to let them fester (and I believe this 
from the perspective of someone who tends to avoid confrontation 
instead, and usually pays for it with sleeplessness, tenseness, and 
once even hives).  I think all of their individual friendships have 
benefitted from the various fights they've had over the years - they 
have been able to grow past them.

> I don't dispute that Ron is a loyal friend to both Harry and 
Hermione.  But, I don't think he's *as* loyal (in my traditional 
interpretation of loyalty) as Hermione is.  I think
> loyalty is one of her principle strengths.

I agree that she is loyal, but I think they are both very loyal, and 
probably equally as loyal in different ways.  She risks breaking 
rules and even being expelled - the two things that terrify her most -
 and Ron risks his life, both to help and protect their friends.  
But if I had to boil it down to one thing that makes me think Ron and 
Sirius are a lot alike, it would be the statement Sirius made in the 
Shreiking Shack.  It seemed to me to be the most character-defining 
of his statements about himself and about the way he sees other 
people:  "Then you should have died, as we would have done for you."  
He even includes Remus and James in the statement without even 
thinking about it, just like Ron included Hermione when he said that 
Sirius would have to kill "us" too if he was going to kill Harry.  
Both not only are reflexively willing to put their lives on the line 
for their friends, they also automatically believe that their friends 
would do the same.  I don't think it was by chance that Ron made that 
statement in the same scene where Sirius made his.  

Kimberly, who really ought to be in bed.