Ron/Sirius parallels

[Kimberly]

No: HPFGUIDX 11374

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
> 
> > wrote:
> > > Not sure where I fit as I like both Ron and Sirius (to different
> > degrees & for different reasons) but ...
> > >
I asked:
> > I have to ask, after reading your post - is one of those degrees 
> >"not much at all"? ;)
> 

Penny responded:
> What -- just because I think Sirius is more closely paralleled by
> Hermione, I'm now accused of not liking Ron?  I sincerely regarded 
this
> post as more of arguing Hermione/Sirius parallels, rather than
> detracting from Ron as a person.  I *do* like Ron!  Really!

Oops! Sorry!  Wasn't trying to pick on you or anything!  I guess I 
misunderstood your post to an extent.  I apologize. I think you must 
have misunderstood mine as well (see below).

I said: 
> > I think though that this leaves out his personality during his 
teen
> > years, when the comparison can best be made.  Then he *was* rather
> > rash and impulsive, and easily angered.  If not, his decision to 
send
> > Snape off to face a full-on werewolf was far more cold and cruel, 
and
> > I don't see evidence of that tendency in him in any of the books 
so
> > far.
> 

Penny replied:
> We still don't know the full story on the werewolf prank pulled by
> Sirius, and so I reserve judgment against Sirius in that matter 
until
> the story is more fully fleshed out.  

I certainly wasn't making a judgement against Sirius - if I were then 
*my* post would be the one that was anti-Ron, as it would imply that 
Sirius's anger was a terrible flaw of some sort that Ron shared.  I'm 
regarding it soleley as a character trait, and one that he seems to be 
taking in hand now.  Note I said it would be worse if he weren't 
simply hot-headed, at least in my opinion.  Remus himself says it was 
rash and dangerous, and I'd rather think it was done in the heat of 
the moment than that he was coldly plotting to put Snape in serious 
danger.

Penny:
I am in no way a Snape fan 
though,
> so that colors my perception.  I much more readily give the benefit 
of
> the doubt to Sirius (and Dumbledore -- who knew the whole story & 
did
> not expell Sirius).  

Again, Sirius doesn't need the benefit of the doubt from me - I'm not 
accusing him of anything but having been a rather rash and 
hot-tempered teenage boy.  This is not something I consider to be a 
horrible offense.  It is, in fact, fairly common.

Penny again:
I distrust Snape, so I'm disinclined to give 
any
> credence to his version of events.

I think, from the way Dumbledore interacts with him, that Snape is far 
more trustworthy than he is likeable.  I'm sure his fear and anger 
color his version of events, but I don't doubt that a teenage boy 
might pull a prank like that without thinking of the consequences.

I said: 
> > In PoA he was in attack/revenge/protection mode, which was quite
> > anger-oriented,
> 
Penny:
> I agree with Monika & Carole that his actions appear to be less
> motivated by *anger* as they are by PTSD, stress, etc.

I think the anger may have been fueled by those things, but I don't 
think that the presence of those things negates the anger.  

Sudden and possibly useful realization:
I think the fundamental problem in our understanding each other's 
points of view in this instance is that I see anger as a valid 
emotion - one that can sometimes lead to inappropriate actions, and 
needs to be controlled, but not something that is bad and wrong.  As 
an example from my Christian perspective, Jesus was angry at the way 
the temple had been turned into a marketplace, and he dealt with it in 
a very angry manner.  So to me anger is not necessarily bad, but it 
can sometimes be dangerous.  From your responses I'm thinking maybe 
you see it differently?  

Penny:
> > > He's much more the stable, wise, self-sacrificing, protective
> > godfather.
> >
Me:
> > I agree he's wise and self-sacrificing, and definitely he's
> > protective, but as for stable, to be fair, in GoF he's not 
physically
> > present very much.
> 
Penny:
> By stable, I meant he's *there* for Harry -- whether it's in person 
or
> by owl-post.

Oops - sorry!  I misunderstood again - I thought by stable you were 
referring to a lack of angry reactions - I guess I inferred that it 
was a continuation of your argument that anger is not one of Sirius's 
main traits.  That's why I said what I did - the last bit, that you 
didn't include, I mean, about how he couldn't very well fly off the 
handle at anyone when he wasn't physically present.  Were you making a 
seperate point that I missed?  
 
Penny:
> > > So .... all in all, I'm not so sure we can definitely ascribe a 
hot
> > temper to Sirius.
> >

Me:
> > You have to take into account the fact that his first instinct, as 
a
> > kid in the MWPP days, as a young adult when James and Lily died, 
and
> > in the events of PoA, was to seek vengeance.
> 

Penny:
> As a teenager in the MWPP days -- we don't know yet *what* motivated 
him
> to play that prank.  I'm not sure it's fair to say it was vengeance 
when
> we really don't know much about it other than it occurred & that
> Dumbledore knew about it (chose not to take action) and that Snape 
is
> still incredibly bitter about it.

Me:
Ok, I can buy that - it's true we don't know what motivated it.  I was 
assuming it was anger because the alternative as I saw it was 
something far more frightening.  But I may be overlooking another more 
reasonable motivation.  What is your suggestion?

Penny some more: 
> As a young adult when James & Lily died - he might not have been 
seeking
> vengeance per se as much as he hoped to trap Peter, turn him into 
the
> authorities & clear his own name.  

He was outwitted by Peter -- and 
as
> suggested by others yesterday, I would wager this was due to his 
stress
> level & shock.  He did go looking for Peter, but who's to say his 
intent
> all along wasn't simply to bind him up & turn him into the 
authorities
> so that his own name could be cleared?

I may be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure he says in PoA  that 
he went looking for him, and that he wanted to kill him, but that 
Peter was too quick for him.  Can anyone tell me if I've made that up 
in my head?  It wouldn't be the first time, I admit.  But even if I 
got that wrong, as I understand it Sirius wasn't much of a suspect 
before Pettigrew created the scene, cried out that he'd betrayed James 
and Lily and then was 'killed' by him.  Besides if it were me, my 
first thought immediately after the death of my best friend and his 
wife wouldn't be to clear my name.  Granted it wouldn't be for 
vengeance either, but I don't think that's what was on his mind at 
that moment.

Penny: 
> As for PoA -- I subscribe to the PTSD theory.  I'm not sure we're 
seeing
> Sirius' true personality there.

Could be.  But it is consistent with each other glimpse we have of 
him, as I see it, anyway.

Penny: 
> > I said: I'm one of the few who paralleled Hermione to Sirius back 
when
> > we were trying to compare the Trio to the Marauders.  Most people
> > paired her up with Lupin because of intellect, although I maintain
> > that since McGonagall said James & Sirius were the brightest 
students
> > of their year, Lupin must be slightly less intellectual (if 
relying on
> > grades alone
> > anyway).
> >

Me:
>> Kimberly said: But there's a difference between bright and
> > intellectual.  From my observation Remus is a man of thought, 
Sirius a
> > man of action,
> > regardless of their relative IQs or grades.  That's not to say 
Sirius
> > isn't intellectual and Remus doesn't take action, but their 
general
> > tendencies seem to run that way.  Plus Remus missed a couple of 
days
> > of classes every month due to err.... non-feminine pms :), which 
was
> > bound to affect his grades.  Especially if any of the teachers 
were
> > like Snape, or even McGonagall.
> 

Penny:
> I agree -- that's why I added the qualifier re: if relying on grades
> alone.  But, I don't see Hermione as being strictly the intellectual
> type.  She puts her smarts to good use -- she uses practical 
application
> all the time.  

So do you mean Remus doesn't?

Penny:
>She does reflexively turn to books, and I honestly 
can't
> see Sirius being that type.  But, she *also* thinks on her feet & 
has
> natural "brightness" -- traits I do ascribe to Sirius.

Again, see above.  Can  you give me examples of where Sirius is this 
way and/or Remus is not?  I remember Remus thinking on his feet with 
the Dementors, and with Peeves.  I remember Sirius having an idea for 
the dragons before he was interrupted by Ron trying to make up with 
Harry, but I think in that instance his suggestion was going to be the 
same thing that one of the Champions came up with, and Harry did 
better with Moody/Crouch's suggestion.  Sirius did notice the 
potential in Crookshanks, and he put that to good use, but I don't see 
him as showing these traits particularly more than Remus.

I really, honestly see parallels between Hermione and Lupin.  Who 
helps Harry learn the summoning spells?  Hermione.  Who helps him 
learn to create a patronus?  Lupin.  I think Lupin is very sensible; 
he thinks on his feet and is prepared.  He shows up with chocolate 
when the dementors strike because that's what is needed.  Poppy 
Pomfrey commented on that with great respect.  It was something like - 
finally, a DADA teacher who knows his remedies. 


Me: 
> > I agree that she is loyal, but I think they are both very loyal, 
and
> > probably equally as loyal in different ways.  She risks breaking
> > rules and even being expelled - the two things that terrify her 
most -
> >
> > and Ron risks his life, both to help and protect their friends.
> 
Penny:
> This is very well-worded -- I like it.
> 
> My main problem with Ron in the fight in GoF is this: I think 
Hermione
> immediately saw from the expression on Harry's face that he hadn't
> entered his name.  I can't help wondering *what* Ron was thinking -- 
it
> strikes me that he just wasn't all that perceptive.  He let his own
> jealousy swamp his initial perceptions.  This much is reasonably
> understandable in my mind.  But, it seems to me that he couldn't 
then
> get past his stubborness to accept what Hermione must have told him 
at
> least once (that Harry hadn't entered himself in the Tournament & 
was
> very upset/frightened).  

Now now ;), if I can't know the details about the Sirius/Snape 
incident, you can't know what Hermione told Ron - you can't have it 
both ways.

Penny:
>If he'd made some moves toward 
>reconciliation
> early on, the fight could have ended.  

Yup.  So could Harry have done.  And Ron was the one to make the first 
moves.  Harry wouldn't have it.  But of course this veers completely 
off-course, as we were talking about whether Ron and Sirius are alike, 
so I'll move on.

Penny:
>Instead, he turned a deaf ear 
to
> Hermione and possibly his own instincts.  

Again, we don't know what Hermione said to him or what he was 
thinking.  I agree it was probably about jealousy, but this is even 
more speculative than my comments on Sirius and Snape as kids, since 
we do have *some* account of that incident.

Penny:
>I didn't like this aspect of
> Ron at all -- it made me very nervous that he could have a similar
> reaction in a situation when the stakes might be indeed even higher.
> Just my opinion though!  :--)

Now see, my initial instincts on reading your post weren't completely 
off! <g>  

But I can't see how this makes him dissimilar to Sirius, as Sirius did 
the very same thing to Remus.  Lupin had done nothing to make his 
friends suspect him of being disloyal, but they distrusted him so much 
that they left him completely out of the decision to change 
secret-keepers.  Had he known, Sirius might not have been sent to 
Azkaban for 12 years for a crime he didn't commit, to top it off.   So 
I'd say that's more evidence that they *are* alike than that they're 
not.  

But of course that's my point of view, from over here on the Happy, 
Sappy H/G!
Kimberly